Sequoia Capital Study of 400 Founders Links Success to Extreme Focus

红杉资本研究400位创始人：成功源于极度专注 最成功的创始人受强烈的控制欲和高度专注所驱动，而非金钱利益，他们往往通过牺牲个人生活的平衡来打造划时代的伟大企业。 在本期节目中，David Senra 与主持人深入剖析了传奇创业者的心理，指出精英创始人拥有近乎超人的专注力，使他们能够“屏蔽外部世界，构建属于自己的世界”。通过约翰·D·洛克菲勒（John D. Rockefeller）、史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）等历史人物以及达纳·怀特（Dana White）和丹尼尔·埃克（Daniel Ek）等现代案例，他们探讨了童年成长背景、相比联合创业模式更为关键的个人独立驱动力，以及极度执念如何塑造出跨时代的企业。对话还涉及对工作与生活平衡的沉重牺牲、二次创业者的陷阱，以及当前的 AI 范式转变如何为专注的创作者开启拥有无限杠杆的新时代。 顶尖创始人最核心的共性是极度的专注，即“屏蔽外界噪音并构建自己的世界”；真正专注的本质并不在于想做什么，而在于勇于拒绝好点子，从而为伟大的想法保留空间。 (1:11) “创始人与问题的契合度”（founder-problem fit）比产品市场契合度（PMF）更为关键；伟大创业者无需迎合某种刻板人设或扮演恶人，找到适合自身特质的独特风格才能走得更远。 (7:48) 能够长久维持的联合创始人组合极其罕见；纵观商业史，几乎所有跨时代的商业巨头最终都是由一位占据主导地位的核心领袖独自推动向前。 (17:51) 依靠负面自我怀疑或自我惩罚作为驱动力在长期来看是不可持续的；顶级创业者与创造者必须在某个节点将燃料转变为源自创造乐趣与感恩的“生发性动力”。 (23:22)

Analyzing the careers of more than 400 historical and modern business figures, David Senra argues that legendary founders share a timeless, obsessive phenotype defined by extreme focus, singular leadership, and an intrinsic compulsion to build. While technological shifts like artificial intelligence provide unprecedented individual leverage, enduring success requires deep self-awareness, authentic founder-problem fit, and long-term commitment to a single craft. The Anatomy of Focus and Singular Leadership (1:50) Senra distills the common denominator of elite founders down to a single attribute: extreme focus. Citing Steve Jobs's framing, true focus does not merely mean declining unwanted tasks, but actively rejecting good ideas one wishes to pursue so that undivided attention remains on a great idea. Dana White modeled this dynamic by ignoring business literature and industry norms to build the Ultimate Fighting Championship (UFC) purely from a fan's perspective, absorbing six years and $40 million of losses before the enterprise became profitable and ultimately secured an $8 billion media rights agreement. This extreme focus rarely fits neatly into conventional venture frameworks that advocate for egalitarian, multi-person founding teams. Senra observes that historical breakthroughs are almost always propelled by one dominant figure rather than balanced consensus. Michael Moritz documented how Steve Jobs effectively refounded Apple alone during its historic turnaround; Henry Ford bought out all outside shareholders by 1919 to retain complete control; and Charlie Munger consciously chose to subordinate his own ego to Warren Buffett's singular investing obsession. Psychological Drivers and the Shift in Fuel (23:22) Obsessive drive often traces back to formative paternal relationships and a perceived need to overcome deficits. Biographies reveal that figures such as Francis Ford Coppola and John D. Rockefeller were heavily influenced by complicated fathers—a frustrated artist who doubted his son's talent, and a chaotic scam artist who attempted to swindle his own children. While modern statistics show only three of the top ten tech CEOs are first-generation immigrants (Jensen Huang, Elon Musk, and Sergey Brin), Senra notes they command an outsized share of total market value, driven by a perception that American capitalism offers boundless opportunity. However, Senra argues that relying indefinitely on negative self-talk—such as Jensen Huang questioning his own competence daily, or Tony Xu obsessing over 17 operational flaws during celebratory dinners—is ultimately unsustainable. Adopting advice from serial entrepreneur Brad Jacobs, Senra emphasizes that while chips on the shoulder and imposter syndrome can propel an entrepreneur to the starting line, playing the game for decades requires transitioning to generative fuel driven by gratitude and the intrinsic joy of creating. Founder-Problem Fit and the Mimetic Trap (7:48) Senra rejects the assumption that elite founders must conform to an abrasive or monolithic personality type. In ongoing work with Spotify founder Daniel Ek, Senra notes that Ek wasted years attempting to imitate Steve Jobs before realizing his natural style aligned with being a coach and team player. Ek and Senra argue that establishing 'founder-problem fit'—exemplified by Demis Hassabis at DeepMind—is far more foundational than traditional product-market fit, as there is no single operational playbook that suits every leader. This need for self-knowledge stands in contrast to the performative anti-mimeticism of modern Silicon Valley. Although Peter Thiel observed that mild autism-spectrum traits can act as an advantage by removing the social conditioning that talks founders out of contrarian ideas, Senra contends that many founders now merely perform social awkwardness to match the tech-genius archetype. Sustainable authenticity demands clear-eyed self-awareness, mirrored by real estate mogul Sam Zell, who refused to manage institutional capital because he knew he was constitutionally unsuited to answer to limited partners. The Myth of Balance and Incurable Compulsion (43:24) Across hundreds of historical biographies, Senra finds that genuine personal balance is exceptionally rare, identifying only three notable exceptions: quantitative investor Ed Thorp, retail pioneer Sol Price, and luxury founder Brunello Cucinelli. Instead, top operators consistently maintain intense regimens; for example, Demis Hassabis maintains two distinct workdays by logging thinking hours between 11:00 PM and 4:00 AM after spending evening dinners with his family. Senra views this relentless output as an incurable compulsion rather than a calculated career sacrifice. Late-life autobiographical accounts from Phil Knight and Sam Walton illustrate that despite profound family sacrifices and personal tragedies, neither founder wished to alter the obsessive dedication they gave to their enterprises. Longevity in business, Senra notes through Dana White's experience, relies simply on staying in the game long enough to let compounding effort turn into luck. AI Leverage and the Discipline of Longevity (146:55) While founder psychology has remained identical across eras, the technical landscape has shifted. Citing Michael Dell's battle against IBM and Tobi Lütke's perspective on the market, Senra highlights that the current AI wave represents a platform shift where every enterprise is up for grabs. In this environment, extreme individual leverage makes world-class domain practitioners up to ten thousand times more valuable than average performers. Despite this leverage, Senra remains skeptical of AI startups attempting multi-product expansions before proving durability, warning against treating fundamental strategic decisions as easily reversible experiments. Furthermore, he cautions against the second-time founder trap, arguing that entrepreneurs who sell their definitive life's work in their prime rarely recapture that magic by pursuing secondary or tertiary ideas later in life. Senra concludes that iconic founders are irreducible forces of nature who rarely require external advice or VC rubrics to guide their execution. The central unresolved tension remains personal: whether founders driven by innate compulsion can successfully transition their psychological fuel from destructive fear to generative purpose without losing the edge required to build enduring institutions.

播客《Founders》主理人David Senra通过研读400多位商业与历史巨擘的传记指出，卓越创始人的核心共性在于近乎物种差异般的极度专注与偏执，其心理表型百年来未曾改变。他们受强大的控制欲与使命感驱动，倾向于屏蔽外部噪音以重塑现实，但在创造非凡商业成就的同时，往往承受着不可逆的生活失衡与精神重负。 专注的本质与“屏蔽世界”的偏执哲学 (1:50) Senra将顶尖创始人的第一特质归结为“专注”（focus），并指出其专注程度异于常人，以至于常人难以理解。这种专注的核心逻辑是“屏蔽外部世界，构建属于自己的世界”（mute the world and then build your own）。引用Jony Ive对Steve Jobs的回忆，真正的专注并非单纯拒绝不愿做的事，而是为了不分散对伟大构想的投入，坚决对那些内心极度渴望去做的“好点子”说不。DoorDash联合创始人Tony Xu在取得重大胜利后，仅庆祝一天便会立刻在脑海中列出公司正在出错的17个问题；这种永不松懈的危机感是卓越者的典型特征。 UFC总裁Dana White的经历进一步印证了这种不计退路的执着。White自19岁担任波士顿酒店行李员起便完全痴迷于格斗，从未阅读过商业书籍或收听商业播客，纯粹以狂热粉丝视角设计赛事体验。当UFC陷入财务崩溃时，他联合Fertitta兄弟以200万美元收购该公司，在连续6年亏损并追加投入4000万美元后终获盈利，最终促成了近期高达80亿美元的转播权交易。Senra据此强调，顶尖创始人不随波逐流，而是凭借对特定领域的原始狂热长期深耕。 创始人表型：父辈印记、高异议性与心理机制 (40:15) Senra明确驳斥了创始人必须出身破碎家庭或成为“混蛋”的刻板印象，但强调当代巨头与百年前的商业先驱在性格“表型”（phenotype）上高度一致：均具备极度的偏执与高异议性（disagreeableness）。例如Steve Jobs曾因Pixar董事会成员从不反驳自己而将其解雇，认为缺乏思想交锋便毫无价值；而John D. Rockefeller虽然终生待人谦和且极具社交技巧，却同样具备惊人的掌控力与冷酷的执行力。此外，家庭背景特别是父子关系深刻塑造了创业者的内驱力，如Francis Ford Coppola在才华横溢却郁郁不得志的父亲贬低后激发出通宵工作的狂热，Rockefeller则在防备招摇撞骗的父亲过程中锤炼出极致的自律。 针对硅谷科技巨头普遍表现出的阿斯伯格综合征特征，Peter Thiel认为缺乏“模仿社交基因”反而是巨大优势，使创作者不会在初期被世俗观念劝阻而放弃惊世构想（如Elon Musk坚持创立SpaceX）。然而Senra也警示，湾区近年来形成了一种刻意表演社交障碍以迎合天才人设的“反模仿”怪圈。Senra正与Spotify创始人Daniel Ek合作总结六至八种创始人原型，Ek认为“创始人与问题的契合度”（founder-problem fit）远比产品市场契合度更关键，创始人必须找准符合自身特质的角色，而非盲目模仿Jobs等特定偶像。 治理神话的破除与AI时代的无限杠杆 (17:51) 在团队架构上，Senra对风投机构推崇的多人联合创始人模式持强烈怀疑态度。他援引Michael Moritz对Apple的研究指出，Steve Jobs重返苹果是一次单枪匹马力挽狂澜的个人重构；历史上的经典组合往往也由单一主导力量掌控，例如Henry Ford在1919年回购全部股权实现绝对独裁，而Charlie Munger则因深知Warren Buffett具有百年一遇的专注力，选择主动退居次席。Senra认为，长久平衡的联合创始关系极为罕见，大多数传奇企业终究由一位主导者推动前行。 随着技术范式转移，企业的组织形态与人才价值正在被重写。Jack Dorsey探索的全新模式（Dorsey mode）试图取消传统科层制，由核心AI承担日益增长的决策比例，员工则围绕系统提供背景与人类判断。Michael Dell与Shopify的Tobi Lütke均向Senra表示，当前的AI浪潮彻底颠覆了以往所有平台转型，使得“所有业务都面临重新洗牌”。在无限杠杆的时代，极少数极致人才的产出价值不再是常人的10倍或100倍，而是被放大至千倍甚至万倍。不过Senra对部分AI原生企业同时推进数十项业务、将不可逆决策视为可逆试验的做法保持审慎，指出热门初创公司尚未证明自身具备穿越周期的持久商业模式。 内驱力蜕变、失衡代价与长期博弈法则 (43:24) 关于创业者的心理动能，许多领军人物长期依靠负面自省驱动自身——例如Jensen Huang每日清晨自省不足，Elon Musk视自身大脑为混乱风暴。但曾创立8家十亿美元企业的Brad Jacobs提醒，长达数十年的负面自我贬抑极具毁灭性且难以持续；当一个人找到终身事业后，驱动力必须转变为因热爱创造而生的“生成性动力”（generative drive）。Senra认同此观点，指出唯有热爱才能支撑不可动摇的长期坚持。 然而，建立巨型企业的代价往往是个人生活的极端失衡。在Senra研究的400多位历史人物中，仅有Ed Thorp、Sol Price和Brunello Cucinelli三人被认为维持了健全平衡的家庭生活。Phil Knight与Sam Walton晚年均坦白，即便内心渴望多陪伴家人，但若重来一次仍会做出相同选择，因为这种狂热属于无法遏制的“强迫症”（compulsion）。对此，Jeffrey Katzenberg建议忙碌的创始人应注重陪伴的时间质量而非数量。Senra总结道，伟大企业无法依照风投的刻板公式批量培养，而在于找准自我定位并在牌桌上坚守足够长的时间（stay in the game long enough to get lucky），通过出色处理眼前机遇来自然解锁未来的巨大红利。 纵观商业历史，卓越创始人并非依靠外部建议或精密规划而诞生，而是由不可替代的狂热、控制欲与对特定问题的偏执所铸就。这种心理机制赋予了他们抵抗世俗阻力并建立商业帝国的超强力量，但也注定了其人生往往必须承受近乎严苛的非平衡代价。

[0:00] David Senra: mute the world and then build your own. [1:50] Steve Jobs: focus is saying no to a good idea that you really want to do, because it distracts you from a great idea. [5:05] You can always understand the son by the story of his father. The story of the father is embedded in the son. [5:05] Francis Ford Coppola's father: There can only be one genius in the family. It's me. [7:48] Tobi Lütke: There's not one right way to do what you're trying to do. There's probably a hundred. You've got to figure out what's right for you. [23:22] Nolan Bushnell: If you pretend to be in control, everybody else will assume that you are. [23:22] Jensen Huang: Why do you suck so much? [23:22] David Senra: If you love what you do, they couldn't pay you to stop. [146:55] Eric Jorgensson: In the age of infinite leverage, being at the extreme of your craft is very important. [210:13] David Senra: Everybody's talking about, 'Oh, all these people trying to clone them.' It's like, they can't clone their minds. [212:43] David Senra: Why would you be all in on your second, third, fourth, fifth best idea? [216:35] David Senra: Depends on who you are as a person. I mean, some of these people are terrible people or they're terrible communicators. I would not be yourself, buddy. Like, I don't want to tell you yourself sucks. [40:15] Steve Jobs: If they don't disagree with me, what value are they giving me? [43:24] Jim Sinegal: I didn't learn a lot from Sol Price. I learned everything I know from Sol Price. [52:21] Dana White: Understand deeply who you are. Understand deeply what you want to do in this world. And then once you figure out those two things, you just wake up every day and get after it. [53:39] Opportunity handled well leads to more opportunity.

[0:00] the best founders kind of um they don't [0:02] really rest on their laurels. They don't [0:04] like sleep on wins. They essentially do [0:06] something great. They celebrate for like [0:07] a day and then back to it. So like I [0:09] just did Tony Zoo of Door Dash who I [0:12] think you guys were investors in. He's [0:13] like we got so much more to do. He's [0:14] like okay we had a something good [0:15] happened. Like let's go out to dinner. [0:17] And by the time the dinner before the [0:18] dinner is over, I'm thinking of the 17 [0:20] things that are not going right. That's [0:21] why it's great. [0:39] Okay, today we have David Center on the [0:42] show. I've been a huge fan of his pod [0:44] for a long time. He basically goes way [0:48] down the rabbit hole on great founders [0:50] from Jesus of Nazareth all the way up to [0:53] Jensen Hang. very very very deep down [0:56] those rabbit holes. So what I wanted to [0:58] know is what do all the great founders [1:00] have in common and how do we apply that [1:02] today's founders? How do we apply that [1:04] to picking the best founders and how do [1:06] we apply that to coaching my best CEOs? [1:09] I hope you like the episode. You have [1:11] gone very deep on a lot of founders, a [1:15] lot of CEOs, a lot of successful people [1:16] from Jesus of Nazareth to Jensen Hang. [1:20] What's the one thing they have in [1:21] common? If I had to distill every single [1:24] thing down to one word, it just be like [1:26] focus. They're just unbelievably focused [1:29] compared to not only the average person. [1:31] It's almost like they're a different [1:32] species. But I would even say to like [1:34] today's founders, they are just much [1:36] more focused and less distracted and [1:38] like not really looking around at what [1:41] other people are doing. They kind of [1:42] don't really care how other people are [1:44] doing what they're doing. The way I put [1:46] this is like there's a maximum for this [1:47] is like mute the world and then build [1:49] your own. Yeah. [1:50] >> And so let me give an example of this. [1:51] This this isn't out on my new show yet, [1:52] but I just spent several hours with Dana [1:54] White. I call him the founder of the [1:55] UFC, even though I was like, "Oh, they [1:56] bought the company." [1:57] >> Yeah. [1:57] >> And Dana, first of all, it's one of my [2:00] favorite conversations I ever had. We [2:01] had so much fun. But when he tells the [2:04] story of the UFC where it's like, you [2:06] know, he's 19 years old, he's a Bellman [2:09] in a hotel in Boston and he's [2:12] self-described loser. He's just like, [2:13] "I'm just a loser. I have nothing going [2:14] on, but I'm obsessed with fighting." At [2:16] that time, it's boxing. He's a huge [2:17] boxing fan. And he has this idea. He's [2:19] like, "I should just move to Vegas to [2:20] fight capital of the world and try to [2:22] just work in the industry." Now he's [2:23] trying to build the world's biggest [2:24] combat organization. But he's just like, [2:25] "I just need to work in this industry." [2:27] And he was like going back and forth. He [2:29] said, "This is stupid." He goes, "I'm a [2:31] Bellman. I could be a Bellman at 35. [2:33] This doesn't work out. I could be a [2:34] Bellman at 35. I could be a Bellman when [2:36] I'm 50. So I have nothing. I have no [2:38] wife, no kids." And he just goes starts [2:40] working in the industry, taking a job he [2:41] can get. Starts promoting, excuse me, [2:44] managing fighters. Then starts managing [2:45] this weird thing called MMA. and these [2:47] fighters for this thing called UFC which [2:49] is nothing. They're in front of tiny [2:51] crowds. There's no money and so he's on [2:53] the phone because he's a rep in two [2:56] fighters and one of the fighters is owed [2:58] money by the UFC and he's like dude like [3:01] you need to pay him like and the guy [3:03] screams at him the owner. He's like [3:04] there's no [ __ ] money. There's no [3:07] money. So Dana hangs up calls the [3:09] Fertitta brothers who their father built [3:10] a casino. He's like I think we could buy [3:12] this whole thing. And what you realize [3:14] is he's a missionary founder. I think [3:16] the best founders are missionary. Like [3:17] if you go back and look at Jensen or [3:18] Steve Jobs or Bezos or any of these [3:21] people, Elon missionary. And he's like, [3:24] I think we could buy this thing. They [3:24] buy it for 2 million. Takes him like six [3:27] years. He's making no money. They're [3:28] just they're losing money. They have to [3:30] dump another $40 million into it until [3:33] it's profitable. And then he tells this [3:35] whole story. So I'll get to the end [3:36] because he's still been running it for [3:37] 26 years. And now they just did, you [3:39] know, almost an eight billion dollar [3:40] deal for their TV rights at a time [3:42] where, you know, he's making no money [3:43] for the first six years. The first time [3:44] he makes money, they write on the board [3:46] the compensation for the partners and he [3:48] can't believe. He's like, "Oh my god, [3:49] I'm going to make a million dollars." He [3:50] thought he was rich. I can't even tell [3:52] you what he told me he makes now. He [3:53] told me off camera, it's just it would [3:54] blow your mind. And the reason I bring [3:56] this up is because I talked to him. He's [3:58] like, "I've never read a single book [3:59] about business. I've never listened to a [4:01] single podcast about business. All I did [4:03] was like I'm the fan." So like when we [4:06] bought the company, I never sold [4:08] tickets, didn't have know anything about [4:09] production. He's just like I just made [4:11] what I wanted to see. And so that's mute [4:14] the world and build your own. His entire [4:15] world is his business and then anything [4:17] doing outside he doesn't care about. [4:18] He's just unbelievably focused. [4:20] >> I thought you were gonna say the word [4:21] obsession. Is it the same thing? [4:23] >> I think they're they're like closely [4:25] related. I think if you are intensely [4:27] focused on something I I don't know [4:28] anybody that's intensely focused on [4:30] something that's not that you wouldn't [4:31] call obsessed. [4:31] >> Yeah. And but I think focus the [4:34] difference between focus and obsession [4:35] is you're focus Steve Jobs say focus is [4:38] saying no. Yeah. Like Johnny IVive has [4:40] this great interview that he did with [4:41] Vanity Fair a few years ago and you know [4:43] he's just like one of the things he's [4:44] like Steve was the most remarkably [4:45] focused person I've ever come across and [4:48] one time you know we were talking about [4:49] this and he's like well how many things [4:52] have you said no to and he's like well [4:54] and Johnny he's like I said no to this [4:56] and I said no to that he's like Steve's [4:57] like no no you didn't want to do that [4:59] focus is saying no to a good idea [5:01] >> that you really want to do [5:03] >> in because it distracts you from a great [5:05] idea [5:05] >> where does this come from like you've [5:07] looked at their childhood hoods. Is [5:09] there something that happened early to [5:12] them? Do they have very normal [5:14] upbringings? Are they normal kids or are [5:16] they weird? Like where is this obsession [5:20] focused thing originate? So there's a [5:22] great line. The answer is it's not one [5:24] thing. I came across it in this book I [5:26] read back in 2022. It was actually the [5:27] the biography of Francis Ford Copa [5:29] because I'm also obsessed with when I [5:30] think of entrepreneurship, I'm pretty [5:32] sure the word originated from French and [5:34] I think it's like has ideas and does [5:36] them. [5:36] >> Okay. And so like you built HubSpot, I [5:39] built a podcast. He's a filmmaker. I [5:41] think it's all the same thing. It's [5:43] legitimately the same thing. I had a two [5:44] and a half hour conversation with Ed [5:45] Cat, founder of Pixar yesterday. [5:46] >> Yep. [5:47] >> This is like the same kind of artists [5:48] that these animators and these [5:50] storytellers and these directors same [5:53] kind of spirit that like Steve Jobs had. [5:54] And Ed worked with Steve Jobs longer. I [5:57] think 26 consecutive years long longer [5:59] consecutively with Steve Jobs than [6:00] anybody else. But I would say cuz most [6:02] of them are men, especially when you're [6:04] going back in history. If you're [6:05] building a company 150 years ago, most [6:06] likely a dude. The line I read in [6:08] Francis Forcopo's biography that put [6:11] into words of a reoccurring pattern that [6:13] I'd noticed over and over again, it [6:14] says, "You can always understand the son [6:16] by the story of his father. The story of [6:17] the father is embedded in the son." And [6:20] so that's why when Charlie Munger says, [6:21] "Hey, I'm a biography nut." I had met [6:23] Charlie before he died. He'd read [6:24] hundreds of biographies by the time I [6:25] met him. And his whole thing is if to [6:27] truly understand the ideas, you have to [6:29] tie it to the personality that developed [6:30] them, which I thought was fascinating. [6:32] And so what is happening in Francis Ford [6:33] Copela's life? His dad was a brilliant [6:36] but failed musician. And what happens [6:38] when you have aspirations and you think [6:40] you're talented and there's no evidence [6:42] of that. [6:43] >> He starts to resent this and he's one of [6:44] the most cowardly people I've ever come [6:46] across because he tells his young son, [6:48] "There can only be one genius in the [6:49] family. It's me." And he would just put [6:52] down his son. So the world is not giving [6:53] him what he wants. And so he's taking on [6:55] his son like a [ __ ] coward, right? [6:57] >> Which opposite. I know you have a son. I [6:59] do too. It's like tell me you can do [7:01] whatever you want in the world. It's the [7:02] exact opposite. But this guy's a coward [7:04] and a terrible father. [7:05] >> And so Francis Forcopla internalizes [7:08] that and he has this crazy work ethic. [7:10] At the time when Francis Forcopla [7:12] becomes a director, a feature film [7:14] director in Hollywood, there was no such [7:15] thing as young directors at the time. [7:16] >> Yeah. [7:17] >> And so he's a few years older than [7:19] George Lucas and Steven Spielberg and [7:20] they see this guy doing it and they're [7:21] like, "Oh, I can do it." Fast forward, [7:23] the guy would work 24/7, fall asleep [7:25] editing the movie, like unbelievable [7:27] work ethic. Few years later, decade [7:29] later, he wins an Academy Award, and he [7:32] let his dad do the soundtrack or the [7:35] score of the movie. And his dad [7:37] >> wins an Oscar [7:39] >> for the score of the movie that his son [7:42] made. It's almost like full circle. It's [7:44] like, who's the genus now? You wouldn't [7:45] even had this opportunity if it wasn't [7:47] for me. Are most of these people normal, [7:51] welladjusted people or are they kind of [7:54] broken from an early age and that [7:56] brokenness causes this obsession? [7:58] >> Do you consider yourself a normal [7:59] welladjusted person? [8:01] >> I wouldn't con consider myself normal at [8:04] all. [8:04] >> Exactly. I don't either. [8:05] >> I'm relatively welladjusted. [8:08] >> What does well adjusted mean to you? [8:10] >> I can function in society relatively [8:12] well. I can have a conversation with [8:14] you. Uh [8:15] >> yeah, but we're like the same kind of [8:16] personality type. [8:17] >> I'm not so focused that I can't like [8:19] pick my head up and look around. [8:21] >> Can you do you have the patience? Like [8:23] let's say if your kid, if your son was [8:26] small and you're put into a random [8:28] collection of parents, they're not [8:30] entrepreneurs. They don't have that kind [8:31] of personality. Can you sustain a [8:34] conversation with them for a few hours [8:35] or would you go crazy? [8:38] >> I think I'm better at that than the [8:39] average entrepreneur. [8:40] >> Okay. I can't I can't [8:42] >> My co-founder could not. [8:43] >> Okay. Exactly. So you know this [8:44] personality type. No, they're obviously [8:45] they're they're not normal. They're I [8:47] would not consider them well adjusted. [8:49] Doesn't mean you have to be a prick. [8:50] This is a very important. [8:51] >> Okay. I wanted to ask you that because a [8:52] lot of the best founders of my [8:55] generation were described as [ __ ] [8:58] >> So you have to be an [ __ ] to be a [8:59] good CEO. [9:00] >> Um no, no, definitely not. [9:01] >> Okay. [9:01] >> No, absolutely not. I'm actually working [9:03] on something. Daniel E, founder of [9:05] Spotify, and we just hired an author [9:08] who's going to write this book that may [9:10] never be published. But we're building [9:12] this framework because Daniel was very [9:14] interested in mapping out all the [9:17] different founder archetypes and for [9:18] this exact reason because when he [9:21] started Spotify 20 years ago, everybody [9:23] try to imitate Steve Jobs. The founders [9:25] today, who are they going to imitate? [9:26] Elon or Jensen? [9:28] >> Yep. [9:28] >> And he's like, I wasted years of my life [9:31] trying to imitate a person I am not. He [9:33] is much more like a coach. He describes [9:35] himself as like a he's like a team [9:36] player. He's very different kind of [9:38] archetype. And he would try to like [9:40] almost like wear somebody else's clothes [9:41] or wear somebody else's personality. [9:43] He's like, "This isn't working." Y [9:44] >> and what he realizes now, you know, he [9:46] he knows himself way better. Now he's in [9:48] his 40s. He has two decades of [9:50] experience. He knows a ton of other [9:52] founders. He's like, "Oh, there all [9:53] these different types. We don't have [9:54] words for them." [9:55] >> And so the project that we're working on [9:56] right now, [9:57] >> I love this. [9:58] >> Yeah. And if you want to help, let me [9:59] know cuz I think some feedback, some [10:01] insights into it. Every founder I talk [10:02] about, they're like this, we need this [10:04] because Daniel's point is like more [10:06] important than like product market fit [10:09] or even like founder industry fit. He [10:11] believes the most important is founder [10:14] problem fit. Yep. Like think about Deis [10:17] from DeepMind. There's one great company [10:20] he had in him. It was DeepMind. He was [10:22] put on this planet to do what he is [10:23] doing. That's the perfect example of [10:26] founder problem fit. Steve Jobs founder [10:28] problem fit. What he was doing. Perfect [10:29] example. And so hopefully what we're [10:30] trying to do is like map out these [10:31] archetypes. There might be six, there [10:33] might be eight. We'll try to figure this [10:34] out. And we're doing is going through [10:35] the back catalog of founders and using [10:37] that as trying to map all these [10:40] different out and then have a way for [10:42] you to to identify, oh, this is my [10:44] archetype. And then here's maybe 10 [10:46] examples of historical people that also [10:48] founders that also have the same [10:49] archetype. So maybe you should go read [10:50] about them and how they brand their [10:52] company and what they did. And then what [10:54] other archetypes other founders work [10:55] well together. It's gonna take a long [10:57] time. But yeah, this idea I reject it [10:59] completely that you have to come from a [11:01] broken home or you have to be an [ __ ] [11:03] or you have to be, you know, X, Y, and [11:04] Z. I went up to Canon and recorded a [11:07] podcast with Toby Luke who's very [11:08] fascinating and he said the best way. [11:10] He's like, there's not one right way to [11:11] do what you're trying to do. There's [11:13] probably a hundred. You've got to figure [11:14] out what's right for you. Let me ask you [11:17] about a specific archetype. This is a [11:18] little awkward, but if you think about [11:21] autism spectrum disorder, it's a very [11:23] wide spectrum and for some it's [11:25] debilitating and some it's it's a [11:27] superpower. And like I I'm not as deep [11:30] as you, but if I look at the kind of [11:32] modern trillion dollar company CEOs from [11:36] Jensen to Jobs to Gates to Bezos [11:38] Zuckerberg, Elon, Larry Ellison, six out [11:41] of the 10 have publicly said that [11:43] they're on the spectrum. And maybe a [11:45] couple others are too. I don't know. [11:48] What is your take on that? [11:50] >> I just found this Peter Teal quote about [11:51] this that I think is interesting. And I [11:53] do think for some people, for Elon in [11:57] particular, it's definitely a [11:58] superpower. Yes. Because he has this [12:00] line. He says, I think it's this is a [12:02] direct quote from Elon. I think it's a [12:03] real weakness to want to be liked. A [12:04] real weakness. And I do not have that. [12:06] This is what Peter said about this. Let [12:07] me read like four sentences to you. Many [12:09] of the more successful entrepreneurs [12:10] seem to be suffering from a mild form of [12:11] Asberers. Yes. [12:12] >> Where it's like you're missing the [12:13] imitation socialization gene. Now, this [12:15] is I think Peter's take on this is [12:17] really good. We need to ask what it is [12:19] about our society where those of us who [12:20] do not suffer from asberers are at some [12:22] massive disadvantage because we will be [12:24] talked out of our interesting, original, [12:26] creative ideas before they're even fully [12:28] formed. Think about trying to talk Elon [12:30] out of building SpaceX. Good luck with [12:32] that. This is the last thing that Peter [12:33] says. Oh, that's a bit too weird. That's [12:35] a little too strange. And maybe I'll [12:36] just go ahead and open that restaurant [12:37] I've been talking about that everyone [12:38] else can understand and agree with or do [12:40] something extremely safe and [12:41] conventional. [12:42] >> Yes. So, it's pretty common today, even [12:44] the current founders, [12:46] >> definitely in tech. [12:46] >> If you look back to Carnegie and [12:50] Rockefeller, is there any evidence in [12:52] what you've been reading that that was [12:53] pretty prevalent back then, too? [12:55] >> No. No, I don't think so. That that [12:58] that's the interesting thing. Maybe [12:59] there's something particular about [13:00] technology. We're in San Francisco [13:02] today. You know, like you should move [13:04] here. I think it's a very beautiful, you [13:06] know, physical beauty. But I have a very [13:08] unique vantage point in the founder [13:09] ecosystem because all kinds of founders [13:11] listen to founders. And what I would say [13:13] about dropping into these different [13:15] communities is like the problem with the [13:17] Bay Area and San Francisco is they're [13:20] all mimedic about being anti-imetic. So [13:22] that ver makes them the most mimedic of [13:24] all. [13:25] >> And I think a lot of this is people [13:26] pretending to have autism or pretending. [13:29] Yeah. Oh, 100%. [13:30] >> We naturally imitate. [13:31] >> Yes. And even though Peter Teal spread [13:33] obviously you know the the issue with [13:36] being mimedic and that then I think [13:38] increased people being mimedic. [13:40] >> Okay. You know a lot of VCs [13:43] and there's some tropes about what VCs [13:45] are looking for in founders. What do VCs [13:48] have wrong? Like you've studied the [13:49] best. [13:50] >> I don't actually spend any time with [13:53] VCs. [13:54] >> Chip on your shoulder. [13:55] >> Yeah. [13:57] >> Carnegie Ford Jesus. [14:00] Vinci, Rockefeller, did they all have a [14:02] chip on their shoulder? [14:03] >> I don't know about all of them, but like [14:05] we could take specific examples like if [14:07] we go back to that father, the the [14:08] impact of the father has on the son, [14:10] right? [14:11] >> I mean, Rockefeller's father was a big [14:12] mess. He had multiple families. He was a [14:14] scam artist. He would try to cheat his [14:16] sons. This is in all biographies, and I [14:18] collect obscure Rockefeller biographies. [14:19] I probably like 15 of them. I made my [14:21] own biography. I have a 1,700page [14:23] transcript that I'm going to do an [14:24] episode on of Rockefeller giving this [14:26] interview later in life. You can't buy [14:28] it. I got it from the Rockefeller [14:29] archives. I printed it and [ __ ] bound [14:30] it. [14:30] >> That's how obsessed I am with [14:31] Rockefeller. [14:32] >> And it's clearly that like [14:34] >> Was he on the spectrum? [14:35] >> No. [14:36] >> Okay. [14:36] >> I don't think so. [14:37] >> But he was obsessed. [14:38] >> Focused. [14:39] >> Yeah. [14:41] >> And and part of this I [14:42] >> did he have a chip on his shoulder? [14:44] >> Yeah, I'm sure. [14:44] >> Did they all [14:45] >> I'm trying to think of counter examples [14:47] that did not. I can't think of one right [14:49] now. I'm sure. [14:50] >> Generally, yes. [14:51] >> Yeah, generally yes. I think talking [14:52] absolutes we're obviously going to find [14:53] some kind of example, but yeah, [14:54] generally yes. [14:55] >> Okay. this there this sort of the [14:57] immigrant advantage VC like immigrants [15:00] people who [15:01] >> landed in this country I interviewed [15:03] Cass from [15:05] >> Open Door [15:05] >> yes who I love by the way there just [15:08] wasn't a lot of options to him and that [15:10] risk adjusted options starting a company [15:12] was the best option what is your take on [15:14] that sort of a common trope amongst VCs [15:16] they like the immigrant advantage [15:18] >> I can only speak from my personal [15:19] experience my dad was born in Cuba I'm [15:20] the son of a Cuban immigrant I grew up [15:22] meeting people that came to this country [15:25] They risk their lives literally on [15:26] [ __ ] rafts. And think about how much [15:28] you love your son and how bad Cuba had [15:30] to be and communism had to be to put [15:33] your 14-year-old or nine-year-old son on [15:36] a raft and hope to make that 90m journey [15:38] to South Florida. [15:39] >> Yep. [15:40] >> What does that tell you? That had a [15:41] profound impact on me. And this is where [15:43] I'm like this most the most [15:44] pro-American, pro capitalist person that [15:45] I know just because it's like no, I know [15:47] what like we have like I'm unabashedly [15:49] pro-American and pro capitalist. I think [15:51] a lot of these people, even if they [15:52] don't become entrepreneurs, they have [15:53] fierce work ethics because they're like, [15:55] "Oh my god, I didn't have any [15:56] opportunity. Now I come to this country [15:57] and it's unlimited opportunity." And [15:58] it's weird that the people that their [16:00] families have been here for multiple [16:01] generations think, "Oh, there's no [16:02] opportunity. Everything's gone. This [16:04] this sucks." It's like, yeah. [16:05] >> Okay. One of the things that surprised [16:06] me when I looked at kind of the modern [16:08] tech CEOs, only three of the 10 were [16:11] immigrants. Jensen was an immigrant. [16:13] Elon was an immigrant from South Africa. [16:15] Sergey was an immigrant from Russia. All [16:17] of them were born here. That [16:18] >> Hold on. But those three are responsible [16:20] for what? Oh yeah market cap. [16:22] >> There's some other winners on the list [16:24] though. I was surprised. I thought it [16:25] was going to be eight out of the 10. [16:27] >> Dad was a Cuban immigrant. [16:29] >> Yep. A bunch of them had dad. [16:30] >> Bezos is a Cuban. [16:32] >> Three out of the 10 were immigrants. [16:33] Three out of the 10 dads were [16:34] immigrants, but it certainly wasn't the [16:37] the the common factor. I [16:39] >> I would never be a VC in my life, but if [16:41] I was, I wouldn't waste time trying to [16:43] be like here's these patterns and like [16:45] I'm going to run this through a rubric. [16:47] It's for me like I don't even I barely [16:49] invest. And my whole thing is just like [16:50] I don't the investments I've done. It's [16:52] just like I don't even want you to tell [16:54] me what the company name is or what it [16:55] does. I just like bet on you. Like I [16:57] knew for a fact that there was no way I [16:59] wasn't going to succeed. So I will [17:00] [ __ ] kill myself before I fail. [17:04] >> Um and that's what I would look for. I [17:05] wouldn't look for like chip on shoulder, [17:07] immigrant, anything. Like this person's [17:09] going to figure like Ed Camel yesterday, [17:11] one of my favorite things he ever said. [17:12] >> And keep in mind Steve Jobs said he [17:14] learned more about managing highly [17:16] talented people from Ed Camel than [17:17] anybody else in his career. That's a [17:18] hell of a compliment. [17:19] >> And Ed goes, "It's all about the [17:21] people." [17:21] >> Cuz he he'd give these talks and he'd [17:23] ask like, "What's more important ideas [17:24] or people?" And he's like, "No one [17:25] realizes a false false economy." It's [17:27] like ideas come from people, therefore [17:29] people are more important than ideas. [17:30] And his whole thing was it's all the [17:32] talented people. So he's like, "If you [17:34] give a great idea to a mediocre team, [17:36] they'll [ __ ] it up." Yeah. [17:37] >> If you give a mediocre idea to a great [17:39] team, they either fix it or throw it out [17:41] and create something new. [17:42] >> Yes. [17:43] >> So that's what I would look for. Like [17:44] Travis Remover, like just look into his [17:46] history. That dude was going to make [17:48] Uber work. [17:49] >> Yep. [17:50] >> Or he was going to die trying. [17:51] >> Yep. Okay. He studied all these folks. [17:54] Some founders will walk through the door [17:56] at Sequoia. They're solo founders. Some [17:58] are co-founders. Some have big teams. [18:00] For the most part, when I look back at [18:02] it, some had founders at the beginning, [18:04] but generally it was the one person that [18:06] drove the company in that other founder [18:08] sort of. [18:09] >> There could be some examples, but this [18:10] is awesome. [18:11] >> It's not many. Uh [18:12] >> doesn't I again I don't pay attention [18:14] too much to the startup scene. Doesn't Y [18:16] cominator like heavily recommend [18:18] co-founders? [18:19] >> I think in general the the conventional [18:21] wisdom is co-founders is a very good [18:22] idea. In fact, MIT did a big study and [18:25] they said the optimal number of [18:26] co-founders is three. Not sure I buy [18:28] that. Anyway, you spent some time in [18:29] Charlie Mer who was not the co-founder [18:32] of Berkshire Hathaway but sort of was. [18:35] >> Yeah. I What did What have you learned [18:37] about that co-founder situation? What [18:39] what about partnerships that we've [18:42] studied all these folks? [18:43] >> So So we're at Sequoa. I think people [18:46] should read the uh forward to the [18:48] updated version of Michael Morz's book [18:50] uh return to the little kingdom. It's a [18:52] book he wrote before I think he even was [18:54] at Skoya. Yeah. [18:54] >> So in the first like six years of Apple [18:56] then he did this updated version like [18:58] 2009 2010 called the return to the [18:59] little kingdom. Read the forward of that [19:01] book. [19:01] >> Okay. [19:01] >> First of all, Morris's writing is [19:03] [ __ ] incredible. Great. Oh my god. [19:06] >> I want to do a podcast so bad on the [19:09] biography he did of Don Valentine. It's [19:11] like the perfect biography. It's like 60 [19:13] pages long. Believe it or not, I never [19:14] read it. [19:14] >> Oh my god. You need to do that today. [19:16] Maybe this weekend. Okay. [19:17] >> It's phenomenal. Got it. [19:18] >> He was talking about, you know, Steve is [19:20] singular. It's like when had anybody [19:23] essentially [19:24] refounded he the way he frames it in the [19:26] before he's like Steve refounded Apple. [19:28] He didn't found Apple once, he founded [19:30] it twice and the second time he was [19:31] alone [19:32] >> and then he pulled off the craziest [19:34] turnaround in technology [19:36] >> history. And so this is when I think of [19:38] like even they're like, "Oh, Buffett's [19:40] not the founder of Birkshshire Hathway." [19:42] Because shut up. [19:43] >> Yeah. [19:43] >> And just like Munger, Munger is his [19:45] Munger's co-founder, dude. [19:47] >> Carnegie, Ford, all these folks. [19:50] >> There wasn't many partnerships. [19:51] >> No, that's not true. So Carnegie didn't [19:53] even run his company. This guy named [19:54] Henry Clayfrick, [19:55] >> okay, [19:56] >> ran his company. There's a great [19:57] biography on this I'll send to you. [19:58] You'll love it. It's called Meet You in [20:00] Hell. And it's about the bitter [20:01] partnership between Andrew Carnegie and [20:03] Henry K. Frick. [20:03] >> Okay. [20:04] >> Frick was the operator. Carnegie was [20:06] often like sailing around the world when [20:09] Frick was the one building Carnegie [20:10] Steel and then kind of forced the sale [20:12] to JP Morgan. It's a fascinating story. [20:13] Anytime there's like this new [20:15] technological change and disruption, [20:17] there is physical violence and we're [20:18] seeing this with the attacks for against [20:20] the data centers and the founders of [20:22] these AI companies that is unbelievably [20:24] predictable. It reoccurs throughout [20:26] history. Frick, let me tell you about [20:27] Frick. [20:28] >> They're going through this. It's [20:29] industrial revolution. There's all this [20:31] change. You know, when you have strikes, [20:33] people are just go read the history. [20:34] died about this. Frick got shot in the [20:37] neck. An assassin went into his office, [20:40] shot him in the neck, grazed him, right? [20:42] Then they they they arrested the guy. [20:44] Frick had it sewed up and insisted on [20:47] finishing his day's work, and then went [20:49] home. [20:50] >> Okay. [20:50] >> So, Frick is a a very badass dude. Go to [20:53] >> Is this an exception though? Like, is [20:55] the co-founders that or the partners [20:57] that last an exception rather than sort [21:00] of [21:01] >> I would take them one-on-one. So like if [21:03] you want to go through the [21:03] >> rock 400 for crying out. [21:04] >> Yeah. I know. No, but like but like [21:06] Okay. So like Carnegie was like made all [21:08] the money. He was the largest [21:09] shareholder, but Frick was running the [21:10] company. He was smart enough to acquire [21:12] Frick's company and [21:13] >> like Ford. [21:14] >> No, Ford was an autocrat. [21:15] >> Okay. [21:16] >> And like wouldn't listen to anybody [21:18] else. He remember by 1919 he owned a he [21:21] bought out all his [ __ ] shareholders. [21:22] He owned 100% Rockefeller [21:24] >> of Ford Motor Company. [21:26] >> Rockefeller built a team of founders. [21:28] >> Okay. If you look at his board is it's [21:30] not a board but it's like they called [21:32] him partners. All the people taking [21:33] dividends from standard almost every [21:35] single one was a previous founder and he [21:37] made essentially a board or like a [21:39] company of founders. He happened to be [21:40] the dominating personality. [21:42] >> It was much more of like a I don't even [21:45] know how there might have been a dozen [21:46] of them or eight. I forgot the number [21:47] but there was a lot of them. I talked to [21:49] Munger about this like he he was just [21:52] like Buffett is a once in a century [21:54] talent and he's like you are so arrogant [21:57] cuz Munger had a big ego. Like when I [22:00] met him he he told me the funniest [22:01] thing. [22:02] >> I'm actually surprised to hear that. I [22:03] thought he subjugated his his ego a lot. [22:05] >> He talks about this. So he used that [22:07] word subjugate. That's exactly what he [22:08] said. But he goes, "Uh, if I could do [22:10] life again, I always thought I was [22:12] smarter than everybody else. If I could [22:13] do life again, I'd still think I was [22:15] smarter than everybody else, but I would [22:16] do a better job of hiding it. [22:18] Okay. Okay. [22:19] >> But his point he goes, I thought, you [22:21] know, I was really smart, but I [22:22] recognized the talent that Buffett had [22:24] that I didn't. And Buffett was more [22:25] singularly focused. He wanted to like [22:28] fish and boat and design architecture [22:30] and do real estate and do all this other [22:32] stuff. So he's like, what how arrogant [22:33] would I have to be to not subjugate [22:35] myself to a once in a century talent? [22:37] >> Got it. [22:38] >> His thing was more of like Buffett let [22:40] him shape his mind and his thinking, but [22:42] he re he realized that Buffett was the [22:44] the driving engine behind their success. [22:46] One of my ahas though, and I haven't [22:48] listened to all your podcasts, is I [22:49] don't think there's a lot of co-founding [22:51] teams that lasted the test of time. I [22:53] think it's pretty rare and I kind of see [22:55] that today in in Silicon Valley. [22:58] >> Yeah. [22:59] >> It's kind of one dominant person. [23:00] >> Yeah. And then they go away. Uh that [23:02] second person, Eugene, Waznjak, went [23:04] away. All the people that the [23:06] co-founders of Facebook went away. [23:07] >> It's pretty common. [23:08] >> Yeah. I This is This was my argument [23:10] about this. [23:12] Now that one guy needed these other [23:14] people at the beginning, but there's [23:16] always a singular usually a singular [23:19] driving force becomes [23:22] you get inside their heads and some [23:24] people have positive selft talk. I have [23:26] negative selft talk [23:27] >> still. [23:27] >> Yes. [23:28] >> I just changed this about myself. You [23:30] it's the best ever. [23:31] >> Okay. I've tried and what about these [23:33] people you're interviewing? Are do they [23:34] have imposttor syndrome? Do they have [23:36] negative selft talk as they overcome? [23:38] >> The imposter syndrome is an interesting [23:39] idea. An interesting question. I can't [23:42] think of anybody I think that has [23:43] imposter syndrome right now. You still [23:45] do? [23:46] >> Yeah, I feel like [23:48] kind of nervous right now. [23:49] >> Why are you nervous? [23:51] >> Just am. [23:53] >> So I don't know about the imposter [23:54] syndrome. [23:54] >> I was just in a board meeting for the [23:55] last 3 hours. A little it's like what am [23:57] I doing here? [23:58] >> Interesting. [23:59] >> Yeah. [23:59] >> One of great piece of advice that Steve [24:01] Jobs ever got, he got from Nolan [24:02] Bushnell. So Nolan Bushnell was like [24:03] nine or 10 years older than him. He was [24:05] his mentor, founder of Atari. And he [24:07] told Steve, he's like, "If you pretend [24:08] to be in control, everybody else will [24:10] assume that you are." [24:12] >> Okay. [24:12] >> Steve took that advice and ran with it. [24:14] Okay. [24:14] >> So, I don't know about a poster [24:15] syndrome. What was the other part of [24:16] your question? Just [24:17] >> negative selft talk. [24:18] >> Yeah. [24:19] >> Yeah. I mean, Jensen, dude. [24:21] >> Yeah. [24:21] >> Like like he wakes up every day and he [24:24] says he looks in the mirror and says, [24:25] "Why do you suck so much?" [24:26] >> Yeah. [24:26] >> He [24:28] do you think that's common? [24:30] >> I mean, then you think about Elon. He [24:32] says his mind is a storm. He doesn't see [24:34] he seems to like embrace chaos and need [24:36] like some kind of foil or some kind of [24:38] problem. He seems to be like freaked out [24:39] when things are going well. [24:40] >> Yes. [24:41] >> Uh so I I definitely think he's got a [24:43] dark mind. [24:43] >> I'm kind of negative inside, but but as [24:46] a founder trying to project positive [24:47] outside. [24:48] >> I think it's way more common. The best [24:49] founders, they don't like sleep on wins. [24:51] They essentially do something great. [24:53] They celebrate for like a day and then [24:55] back to it. So, like I just did Tony Zoo [24:57] of Door Dash, who I think you guys were [24:59] investors in, [25:00] >> and his whole thing is like [25:02] >> he's like, "We got so much more to do." [25:03] He's like, "Okay, we had a something [25:04] good happened. Like, let's go out to [25:06] dinner." And by the time the dinner [25:07] before the dinner's over, I'm thinking [25:08] of the 17 things that are not going [25:09] right. That's why he's great. That's [25:11] also different than like being super [25:13] critical and negative. And I think for [25:15] me, Brad Jacobs, [25:17] >> who started eight separate billion [25:19] dollar companies, uh, he's the one bu [25:21] reading his book and then building a [25:22] relationship with him. I don't know what [25:23] happened and this has never happened in [25:25] my life but just something about being [25:27] around him cuz he has 45 years of [25:30] experience as an entrepreneur longer [25:31] than I've been alive and he used to be [25:34] [ __ ] ruthless with himself. [25:36] >> He's like it's not serving me and we [25:38] were talking about this. He's like you [25:40] love what you do. He's like would you [25:41] stop like that's he's like your your [25:43] source of drive that that negative [25:45] source of drive is not serving you [25:46] anymore. Now you love what you do. You [25:48] found what you think is your life's [25:49] work. Your inner drive should be [25:50] generative. It should be like, "Hey, I'm [25:51] trying to make something that's good for [25:52] the world that I love to do that I'm [25:54] very proud of." [25:55] >> And I I'm telling you, it was almost [25:56] like might not have been overnight, but [25:58] pretty there's just something that [25:59] clicked. I'm like, I'm done with that. [26:01] And now it's just like I wake up every [26:02] day. I'm like, I cannot believe like I [26:04] was texting my team last night when we [26:05] got done with EDC. I was like, how is [26:07] this my life? [26:08] >> That negative self-t talk is what got [26:10] you to where you are today. [26:12] >> But but then your fuel source has to [26:14] change. [26:14] >> Yeah. [26:15] >> Because it could also destroy you, [26:16] >> right? [26:17] >> Yeah. Yeah. And so it's like I again I [26:18] don't I don't want to do something for 5 [26:19] years, for 10 years, for 15 years for I [26:21] want to do it forever. If you look at [26:23] the people I've selecting to talk to, [26:25] they've been doing it for 30 years, 40 [26:27] years. I just I'm obsessed with people [26:29] that people say if oh if you love what [26:31] you do, you do it for free. There's [26:33] another level. If you love what you do, [26:35] they couldn't pay you to stop. [26:37] >> Yes. [26:37] >> Those are the people I love. [26:39] >> Yes. Okay. You brought up something [26:41] interesting about platform changes. The [26:43] industrial revolution obviously huge [26:45] platform change even like Henry Ford in [26:48] the assembly line kind of a big platform [26:50] change massive when those things [26:53] happened [26:55] did the profile of the founder CEO [26:58] change and did the way they ran their [27:00] companies change cuz we're going through [27:02] something maybe bigger maybe not but [27:04] probably bigger now [27:06] >> what do you mean by the profile change [27:08] >> I'll give you an example you know Paul [27:09] Graham talked about this thing as [27:10] founder mode and manager mode [27:12] >> manager mode being kind of Jack Welch [27:15] military sty st st st st st st st st st [27:16] st st st st st st st st st st st st st [27:16] st st st st st st st st st st st st st [27:16] st st st st style organizational [27:18] structure very top down founder mode [27:20] being Brian Chesy who pretty distrustful [27:23] of conventional wisdom thinner layers of [27:27] management gets right down to the [27:28] coalace as much as possible and so those [27:31] are sort of the two modes I see of CEOs [27:33] today people are kind of tilting towards [27:35] founder mode in the Dorsy interview we [27:38] were talking about a second ago Jack [27:39] Dorsey is doing I call it Dorsy mode [27:42] where he gets rid of the org chart. He [27:44] gets rid of titles and more and more of [27:46] the decisions are actually made by his [27:48] AI system in the middle of the company [27:50] and the people are in charge of just [27:51] giving more context to that AI system in [27:53] the middle circular shaped. They're [27:55] feeding contests. They have judgment on [27:57] the outside. Over time, the AI system [27:59] makes very few of the decisions today, [28:01] but maybe 5% 10% in the percentage of [28:04] decisions the AI system makes versus the [28:06] humans starts to flip. And so I kind of [28:08] call it dorsy mode, like a new way to [28:10] think about building a company. far [28:12] fewer people than you would have needed [28:14] in the previous generation. Did [28:15] something like that happen to the [28:17] profile or the way they built companies [28:20] back in the previous [28:22] >> It's a great question. I just asked [28:23] Michael Delus [28:24] >> because if you think about Dell, like he [28:26] started his company, he was 19 with [28:27] $1,000. He's like, "Hey, I'm in my [28:29] University of Texas dorm room and I'm [28:31] going to take on the biggest company in [28:32] the world, which is IBM, which is [28:34] >> absolute batshit crazy idea." Yes. [28:37] Right. Most people don't know, I just [28:39] had the conversation with Mark Andre [28:40] about this on my podcast. IBM was the [28:43] first company in history to hit a $100 [28:44] billion market cap. It had 80% market [28:46] share of the entire technology industry. [28:48] I think Mark said on the podcast that's [28:50] like having 10 Googles. It's like we [28:51] haven't seen that level of domination [28:53] ever since. It's just a crazy thing. And [28:55] he w up succeeding. And Dell was [28:56] actually profitable every single quarter [28:58] for the first like 20 years of his [29:00] existence. It's like it's a crazy feat. [29:02] >> And cuz I'm always skeptical of this [29:04] time is different because everybody in [29:05] history says this time is different. And [29:07] so Michael has had to navigate through [29:08] how many different platform shifts and [29:11] technological revolutions. I asked him [29:12] that because I can't like to me it feels [29:15] different and he's like no this is this [29:17] is not like anything else that I've been [29:19] through. I actually think the way to run [29:21] a company Toby Luk believes this too. [29:23] >> Yes. [29:23] >> I I do think the way to do it and how [29:26] you could do it and what's available to [29:27] you is completely different. Like this [29:30] time in my opinion is actually different [29:33] because the amount of leverage I think [29:34] it is too. [29:35] >> Yeah. Exactly. So that that's what I [29:36] would say. I I think the shape of the [29:38] organization changes. I think the number [29:40] of people you need changes. I think the [29:42] way you compensate people because you [29:44] have 100x people now that are really [29:46] proficient with these tools changes. I [29:48] think the planning cycle changes because [29:50] it's moving so fast. I actually think [29:53] it's different like compared to like I [29:55] went through the internet like 1990s [29:58] when I started my career and Google came [29:59] along and SAS came along and mobile came [30:01] along. This is a lot different. There's [30:03] a great line in the almanac and novel [30:05] that my friend Eric Jorgensson wrote [30:06] about the book of Nal Robakan and he [30:08] says in the age of infinite leverage [30:10] being at the extreme of your craft is [30:11] very important. [30:13] >> That was before AI and AI is just [30:15] leverage. Yes. [30:15] >> And I think this is why we talked about [30:18] I think we started this conversation [30:19] when me and you've had this conversation [30:20] before. It's like the premium on focus. [30:22] Just trying to be the best in the world. [30:24] Whatever it is that you do, you're going [30:26] to reap so many more rewards. being at [30:28] the very frontier and the extreme edge [30:29] of your craft is going to be [30:31] unbelievably valuable to the point where [30:32] you just said, you know, you can have [30:33] somebody makes, you know, 1x and then [30:34] you're going to have the most talented [30:35] people. We've already seen some of this. [30:37] They're not 100 times more valuable. [30:38] They're like a thousand times. I don't [30:40] know. So, I'm really close to John and [30:42] Jordy of TBN. I'm obsessed with [30:43] podcasters. I've built relationships [30:44] with all of them. And the way I put this [30:47] is, yeah, maybe they bought the show. [30:50] The show is incredible. I spent a lot of [30:52] time talking to them about this. But [30:55] Jordy came into podcasting and it wasn't [30:58] like he was like this 2x as good [31:01] marketer as the next best podcaster. He [31:03] was like 100x better [31:05] >> and if I was open AI I would make him [31:08] the CMO of open AAI. The value is like [31:10] you know he could produce [31:12] >> not saying he will saying he could [31:14] produce billions of a single individual [31:16] and the ideas that come from his very [31:18] unique brain when it comes to marketing. [31:20] He's really gifted at this. look what he [31:22] did for this show for that was se only [31:24] 17 months old. Everybody's talking about [31:25] oh all these people trying to clone [31:26] them. It's like they can't clone their [31:28] minds. They have no idea what was [31:29] coming. [31:30] >> Yeah. [31:30] >> And so yeah, I do think you're going to [31:31] see people like that in other areas, [31:33] marketing, obviously research everywhere [31:35] else that you should pay them 10,000x. [31:37] >> I think that I don't know about that. [31:38] One other thing that's different I want [31:40] to press you on a little bit is I was a [31:43] preacher of focus inside of HubSpot. [31:45] Every year it's like we can only do [31:46] three things. What are the three things? [31:48] What are the 50 we're not going to do? [31:50] I've noticed that the modern AI native [31:53] CEOs like Winston from Harvey and Anton [31:57] from Lovable and Mati from 11 Labs, [31:59] they're not that focused. They're doing [32:01] tons of stuff and they're able to do [32:02] stuff fast. Bezos used to talk about [32:04] those one-way doors and two-way doors. [32:06] >> Yeah. [32:06] >> Things that used to be one-way doors [32:08] like we're going to do some big [32:09] initiative. We're going to go [32:10] international, some big thing. A lot of [32:12] those oneway doors are two-way doors [32:14] now. Like, okay, let's press for a month [32:16] and see how far we can get. Okay, if we [32:18] miss, let's just go back. What's your [32:20] take on that? That maybe focus isn't as [32:23] important in the age of AI. [32:24] >> I don't know if I have a take on it. I [32:26] would say like I'd be very wary like [32:28] these people that you mentioned have [32:29] built great products. It they haven't [32:31] built durable businesses yet. We have to [32:33] see how this plays out. [32:34] >> Yes. Still early. [32:34] >> Yeah. So that's the issue I would have. [32:36] It's like yeah, maybe those are good [32:37] ideas, but like I'm interested in people [32:38] that build durable businesses. I again I [32:40] don't want to be acquired. I want to be [32:43] around running my business forever. I [32:44] I've spent a bunch of time with older [32:46] founders. I'm talking 70s. [32:47] >> A lot of time with older founders. No, [32:49] no, but I'm talking about like se [32:50] recently like 70, 75, 80 years old. You [32:53] know what I realized? Like if you sell [32:54] your main thing, get out of the game [32:56] completely because if you sell your best [32:59] idea and then you have another decade, [33:01] two decades, 25 years ahead of you and [33:03] then you're just working on like a bunch [33:04] of [ __ ] I don't know how many [33:06] people can found, you know, multiple [33:08] great companies in their lifetime. Very [33:10] rare. Elon, like [33:12] >> I think the second time founder thing is [33:13] really overrated because most of the [33:15] successes are first time. And so what [33:16] I've seen is people that either sold [33:19] their best idea that was a generational [33:21] company or maybe they had a falling out [33:23] or something happened like now you fast [33:24] forward they're 75 years old. This [33:26] happened maybe 25 years ago asking for [33:29] >> it is you don't want to be in that spot. [33:30] And so my point is you're all in or all [33:32] out [33:33] >> but why would you be all in on your [33:35] second, third, fourth, fifth best idea [33:37] and then they try to recapture that [33:39] magic and it's almost impossible [33:40] especially at 50 or 60 [33:42] >> to do what you did at 25 or 35. Like [33:44] that's very difficult. That was just [33:46] some some kind of like weird sixense I [33:48] had about having these conversations [33:49] where it's like [33:50] >> man this is like so far down what you [33:53] had accomplished in the past and like [33:54] you're just like oh I have to play the [33:56] game. It's like I would just if you're [33:58] out then just you're done for the rest [33:59] of your life. Go [ __ ] on your boat or [34:01] go do whatever. [34:02] >> They're not capable of being [34:04] >> and that's and I don't think so either. [34:05] That's why you don't sell. And so that's [34:06] what I mean about be very hesitant of [34:08] taking knowledge or like ideas and like [34:12] oh look this company that has raised a [34:13] bunch of money and is a stone startup is [34:15] working on 15 different products. Well [34:17] let's see how the time give it time [34:19] let's see how it plays out. I don't know [34:20] it's fashionable in AI worlds for people [34:23] to say the best founders have great [34:26] taste. [34:27] What's your take on that? And when you [34:29] look back through the 420 that you've [34:32] studied [34:33] is that a common thing or is that new? [34:36] Is it [ __ ] [34:37] >> I think taste is very real. Now, what's [34:39] what's coloring this is like I've been a [34:40] big fan of Rick Rubin. Y [34:41] >> taste is very real and the guy's built a [34:43] wonderful career. Same thing. Started at [34:45] 18 in his dorm room. He's 62, 63, still [34:48] doing the same thing. Why do people want [34:49] to work with him? [34:50] >> Cuz he his taste. [34:51] >> Yeah. [34:52] >> And and I realized he's like scary good [34:54] at making podcasts, too. [34:56] >> Mhm. [34:56] >> And we were talking before we started [34:57] recording and I go, "Dude, I've been [34:59] thinking about you, why you're so good [35:00] when most people that make podcasts are [35:02] very, very bad." And I go, "I realize [35:04] you took a skill very very bad. Is this [35:06] your way of telling that? [35:07] >> No, I wouldn't be here if you were. [35:09] >> Wouldn't be here if you were. No, but I [35:11] realized he took a skill from music and [35:13] applied it to podcasts. Yes. [35:14] >> Which if you think about what his main [35:15] thing I go, you're a professional [35:17] listener. [35:18] >> And he lit up. I start explaining my [35:20] theory on why you're so good at [35:21] podcasting. [35:22] >> And he goes, "Stop." He goes, "We have [35:24] he stopped. We have to record this. This [35:26] is too good." And so he agreed with [35:27] that. That his his essential skill set [35:29] is like not just his taste, but most [35:31] people when they're talking, like maybe [35:32] even when I'm talking, maybe you're [35:34] listening. maybe you're just waiting to [35:36] respond and it's very common for humans. [35:39] He's just like not forming any opinions [35:40] or judgment. He's just like really [35:42] interested in these people. That's why [35:43] he's very selective of who he works for [35:44] or works with. And so yeah, he he has [35:46] very real taste. I don't [35:47] >> Is he an exception though? [35:49] >> Oh, of course. Like [35:50] >> like did Bezos have taste? Jobs [35:52] obviously had taste. [35:53] >> Jobs obvious Jensen have taste [35:56] Zuckerberg have taste. [35:57] >> I think so. We we mentioned the Broadcom [35:58] guy Hawk Tan I think is his name. He was [36:01] just speaking about this and his whole [36:03] thing was like he thinks these founders [36:04] that pontificate and like I saw this [36:07] strategy coming. I think his company's [36:08] like 1.5 trillion now. He's like that [36:11] [ __ ] no idea this was going to [36:12] happen. The opportunity was in front of [36:13] me. I made a good decision. Then I was [36:15] like, "Oh, what can I do now that I got [36:16] to the next wrong?" And he like looked [36:17] around and then he's like, "That was a [36:18] strategy." He's like, "There's no [36:19] [ __ ] way. There's way too many moving [36:21] parts, way too complicated. I could [36:22] predicted 20 years ago it was going to [36:23] happen." So, I don't know. I I think be [36:26] very wary of anything where there's like [36:27] this echo chamber on X where the current [36:30] thing, the thing of the day. I think [36:31] that's almost useless to even pay [36:33] attention to. So I don't even think [36:34] about it. [36:35] >> This is exactly what I ask you about. [36:36] Like a lot of the people that you see on [36:39] X today or you read their biography, [36:42] you're studying them after they're [36:44] incredibly successful. They've hired a [36:46] PR firm to make everything look good. [36:49] They get advice on how to post on X and [36:51] how to be in the world. advice to [36:54] founders. Should they just be themselves [36:56] or just should they get some help? [36:58] >> Depends on who you are as a person. I [36:59] mean, some of these people are terrible [37:01] people or they're terrible [37:02] communicators. I would not be yourself, [37:03] buddy. Like, I don't want to tell you [37:06] yourself sucks. So, I would not be [37:07] yourself. How much shaping should you [37:09] take? Like, as a CEO, I remember coming [37:11] up and we're going public and we hired [37:13] people like trying to shape me and we [37:15] did a little of it and I think it [37:16] worked. Is that a good idea or a bad [37:18] idea? Yeah, I think obviously depending [37:20] on the industry you're working in, who [37:21] you are as a person. Everything comes [37:22] down to like who you are as a person. [37:24] Like we have one shot at life, how do [37:25] you want to do life? This is why I like [37:26] reading biographies. It's like, yeah, [37:27] there's a lot of good business ideas in [37:29] there. But essentially, every week I'm [37:31] just like, this is how this person did [37:32] life. We're all doing life. We're alive. [37:34] You're listening to this. We're doing [37:35] life. How do you want to do it? I want [37:36] some ideas on how I could do life. And [37:39] so for me, I'm unmanageable. I ran a [37:41] [ __ ] podcast for 10 years that had no [37:43] employees [37:44] >> by myself. What does that tell you? Like [37:46] I have very hard time working with other [37:47] people. like I'm very disagreeable and [37:50] like micromanaging and everything else [37:51] and my now this new podcast like ask my [37:54] team like I am [ __ ] I can be ruthless [37:57] in a nice way. I'm not mean but like [37:58] nope we got to redo that. [37:59] >> Most of these great founders [38:00] disagreeable through time. [38:01] >> Yeah, for sure. For sure. But what I [38:02] would say is like I don't want to censor [38:04] myself. A good friend of mine was um [38:06] mentored by Sam for 25 years and I was [38:09] doing another episode on Sam. He's like [38:10] come over for dinner and I'll give you [38:12] some Samzel stories for your episode. [38:14] And what you know about Sam is like he [38:16] always like ran his own money. His his [38:18] company was like his family office and [38:19] he made the investment decisions. He [38:21] would raise money on an individual [38:22] dealbydeal basis but never no permanent [38:24] capital structure, no fund. He go why do [38:26] you do that? And my friend said the [38:28] funny thing. He goes Sam was [38:29] constitutionally unsuited to manage [38:32] institutional capital. Meaning Sam was a [38:34] wild man that was uncontrollable and he [38:36] would say [ __ ] He had no filter and he [38:38] didn't want, you know, LPS calling him [38:40] saying you're no professional, that kind [38:42] of thing. [38:42] >> Sam knew who he was. So it depends like [38:44] Sam should be who he is. Maybe in this [38:47] case this other founder shouldn't. It [38:49] really just depends on like the [38:50] industry, who you are, what you got to [38:51] be. I don't want to have multiple sides [38:54] of me. I'd rather just be like, "This is [38:56] what I believe. This is what I think is [38:57] interesting." Like if you think about [38:58] founders, like when I go through the [39:00] books, everybody's like, "How do you [39:01] pick out like what you want to talk [39:03] about? Like what are you thinking about [39:05] when you're reading?" And I'm like, [39:06] "Absolutely nothing." Like I'm reading [39:08] like that line sticks out to me for some [39:10] reason. I underline it and then I write [39:11] jot down what comes to mind. And then [39:13] when I before I sit down to record, I [39:14] just go back through the highlights and [39:16] if I read it again a second time and [39:18] it's still interesting to me, I put it [39:19] on the podcast. There's no thinking at [39:21] all. It's all instinct. [39:23] >> Okay. You're an interesting case on this [39:25] because you did 400 plus podcasts of [39:28] mostly dead people and now you're doing [39:32] very much alive people and it's a little [39:34] bit like you never want to meet your [39:35] heroes. [39:36] >> I met my hero James Dyson. [39:38] >> Okay. Yeah, [39:39] >> let's come back to that. [39:41] Any surprises in meeting these people [39:43] face to face versus books? Is there [39:45] whitewashing in the books? Are the [39:48] people face to face like very different [39:51] than their whitewashed external [39:52] presence? [39:53] >> I would have to imagine if you're [39:56] especially for autobiographies. You [39:57] write an autobiography of your life. I [39:59] write an autobiography of my life. [40:01] >> Come on, man. We're gonna like [40:03] >> of course you want to look the best and [40:05] like even if you don't lie about stuff, [40:07] you're going to omit stuff that makes [40:08] you look bad. Of course. [40:09] >> And so this is the the I always get this [40:11] like, well, how do you know the stuff in [40:13] the books is true? You don't. But we're [40:15] not taking a there's no it's not a [40:16] history test. If I read an idea in the [40:19] book, right, that said, you know, Sam [40:21] Walton found a way to beat back [40:23] bureaucracy. And that never happened, [40:25] but it's still a good idea and I apply [40:26] that idea to my business. Why did all I [40:29] care is is this a useful idea. I can't [40:31] prove nor do I care if it's true. I'm [40:33] just looking for interesting ideas. It's [40:35] not a history test. What I would say [40:36] about all the people I've met is they've [40:39] been unbelievably like kind and generous [40:43] and thoughtful, [40:44] >> but I also don't work for them. So, who [40:46] knows? And I'm not I'm not in their [40:48] family. I'm not in their house. Like, [40:50] it's like a different interaction. I [40:52] don't think [40:52] >> you think people today, the great [40:54] founders are different than the ones of [40:56] 100 years ago. [40:57] >> No. No. [40:57] >> Same same personality type. [40:59] >> Same phenotype. [41:00] >> Yeah. Same. [41:00] >> What else is in common? [41:02] >> Like kind of personality traits. [41:03] >> Yeah. So obsession, high level [41:05] disagreeableness. [41:06] >> Talk about that. So somebody comes in to [41:08] pitch with Sequoia, let's say, and some [41:09] people are very charming and some people [41:11] are a little disagreeable. I think it's [41:13] just very natural to want to do business [41:15] with the very charming person. Is that a [41:17] bad instinct? I've done like 15 episodes [41:19] on on Steve Jobs and read almost [41:21] everything I can find on them. And I [41:22] learned something about him that I never [41:23] knew yesterday from Ed Camel. And Ed [41:25] said that um Steve fired two people off [41:28] the Pixar board and he fired them [41:32] because they never disagree with him and [41:33] he's like if they don't disagree with me [41:35] what's the what value are they giving [41:36] me? [41:37] >> He wanted you to fight back and to be [41:39] >> he was disagreeable. Are they all [41:41] disagreeable? [41:43] >> Rockefeller [41:44] had very advanced social skills I would [41:46] say. [41:46] >> Okay. Did they all have advanced [41:48] >> No. No. No. So, but Rockefeller is an [41:49] interesting thing because there's people [41:51] that worked for him for like 40 years [41:52] that said he never heard never heard him [41:54] raise his voice and never said an unkind [41:56] word. That's crazy. And then even the [41:58] way he would arbitrate disagreements [42:01] between him and his partners was [42:03] essentially like there's there's one [42:04] thing where they wanted to invest like [42:06] $3 million into some kind of new [42:07] technology that I think would transport [42:09] oil faster or refine oil faster or [42:10] something like that. And there was a [42:11] huge disagreement on the board and [42:13] Rockefeller sat there quietly and let [42:15] them fight. And then he said, "I believe [42:17] in this. if you guys don't want to do [42:18] this, I'll put up the money myself. If [42:20] it works, standard oil can pay you back. [42:22] If it doesn't, I'll eat the three [42:23] million. And then his partner's like, [42:24] well, if you could take the the risk, we [42:26] can, too. And that that's how they [42:27] agreed to do it. [42:28] >> That's not disagreeable. That's that's [42:30] something else. [42:30] >> Yeah. [42:31] >> It just depends on the person. But yeah, [42:32] there are these traits that that [42:34] obsession focus, cost control, obsessed [42:37] with having the lowest cost. They see [42:38] that advantage compounds over and over [42:40] again. You don't see that with the new [42:41] technology founders at all. I think it's [42:42] a great disadvantage. Micromanagers, [42:44] what Paul Graham calls founder mood, [42:45] that's not new at all. I'm a huge fan of [42:47] his essays, but when that essay went [42:48] viral, we're like, we're bringing this [42:49] back. I'm like, this is a new thing. [42:50] It's like they're This is not new at [42:52] all. [42:52] >> Interesting. [42:53] >> At all. Nothing is new in in this at [42:55] all. [42:56] >> What is new? [42:58] >> I think what we talked about earlier, [42:59] like what Jack Dorsey was saying, what [43:01] Michael Dell was saying that I do think [43:04] I mean, Toby Luke, when I talked to him, [43:06] um, you know, he he he said that we're [43:08] going to look back on 2026, [43:10] >> uh, we're gonna look back on this year [43:12] in history as like the year that every [43:14] single business was up for grabs. Yeah. [43:15] that you can rebuild almost every single [43:19] business AI native and have a massive [43:21] advantage. And uh I think that's an [43:23] interesting thing. [43:24] >> When you look back at all these folks, [43:26] how many of them had like great [43:29] well-balanced personal lives, great [43:32] families, had like a really [43:36] deep life beyond between the lines. [43:39] >> I think three of them [43:40] >> out of all of them, only three. I think [43:42] uh Ed Thorp who is a very fascinating [43:46] character created the first quantitative [43:47] hedge fund uh invented the way to to [43:50] count cards for blackjack phenomenal [43:52] investor he [43:53] >> but the fact is only three [43:55] >> him soul price do you know who soul [43:56] price is [43:57] >> no [43:58] >> so soul price is the most influential [44:00] retailer of all time Sam Walton said he [44:02] took more ideas from soul price than [44:03] anybody else Jeff Bezos took a lot of [44:05] ideas for Amazon from Soul Price so he [44:07] knows who he is Bernie Marcus literally [44:09] got the idea for Home Depot from Soul [44:11] Price Jim Synagal of Costco literally [44:13] said, "I didn't learn a lot from Soul [44:15] Price. I learned everything I know from [44:16] Soul Price." So, he created all these [44:18] billionaire retailers. Other one I would [44:20] say is Brunell Cuchinelli, but that was [44:23] his autobiography. And I heard that may [44:25] or may not be true. [44:26] >> Advice to founders. So, I spent all my [44:28] days with founders trying to build [44:29] trillion dollar companies. Advice for [44:31] them on their lives. [44:33] >> I don't ever give advice. [44:34] >> Why not? I'm asking you for advice right [44:36] now [44:37] >> for you. [44:38] >> Let's use me as a proxy. I think people [44:40] are going to do what they want to do and [44:42] so they'll seek out useful information. [44:44] But I think these people that go around, [44:45] not you, but like anybody that just goes [44:47] around like trying to identify what's [44:49] going on in somebody else's life, like I [44:50] think it's almost like relatively [44:52] useless. I think people literally do [44:53] what they want to do. I talked to a lot [44:55] of founders now. There is this thing [44:56] where they find it very useful to have [44:58] like a conversation. They kind of like [45:00] dump what's going on in their company to [45:02] me and I kind of run it through [45:03] everything I've read and maybe I come up [45:05] with something interesting, but I [45:06] wouldn't consider that advice. He's just [45:07] like, "Oh [ __ ] Rockefeller ran into [45:09] that situation. This is what he did or [45:10] Ford did this or did [45:12] >> it possible to build a trillion dollar [45:14] company and have a very well-balanced [45:15] life like Ed Thorp?" [45:16] >> I don't even pay attention to public [45:18] markets. [45:18] >> 10. [45:19] >> There's 10. [45:19] >> There are 12 including like a Middle [45:21] Eastern oil. [45:22] >> Okay, let's just take the American [45:23] companies. [45:24] >> 10. [45:25] >> Any of those guys well balanced? [45:27] >> Here's what I will say about them that I [45:28] thought was interesting. Only two of [45:30] them are divorced. Most of them were [45:33] married before they were famous. [45:35] >> Mhm. and stayed married and most of them [45:38] married their spouse was kind of an [45:40] intellectually equal. They met them and [45:43] they were very accomplished on their own [45:46] and so they started out with an [45:49] intellectually [45:51] formidable partner very early and stuck [45:53] with them. I thought that was [45:55] interesting. Of course, like Larry [45:56] Ellison's had four wives like [45:58] >> I think six now. [45:59] >> Okay. But um [46:00] >> he's doing some heavy lifting for these [46:02] other guys. But I thought it was [46:03] interesting that they all got married [46:06] very early to peers. And how about [46:09] through history? In history, they're [46:11] just like they're terrible husbands. [46:12] Like divorce like just not [46:15] >> I see [46:15] >> good. I would I would not consider them [46:17] in many cases bad fathers too. [46:19] >> I see. [46:20] >> Um this is a very difficult thing to do. [46:23] I remember um I just finished reading [46:24] Phil Knight's autobiography, Shoe Dog, [46:26] for the third time. [46:27] >> I love it. [46:28] >> And think about what he says at the very [46:29] end, you know, like he had two sons. one [46:32] of them died tragically in a drowning [46:33] accident. And he was like trying to [46:35] reconcile this as a grown 75-year-old [46:37] man at the time. He's having a hard time [46:39] understanding this that like this push [46:41] and pull like I wanted to spend more [46:43] time with my sons. But if I'm being [46:45] honest, my biggest regret is that I [46:47] can't go back and do it all again. And [46:50] in Sam Walton's autobiography, you know, [46:52] he sacrificed a lot of time away from [46:53] his family to build Walmart. And he's he [46:56] knows he's dying. He's writing the book [46:57] when he's riddled with cancer. And he's [46:59] >> regret that. [46:59] >> No, that's what I was getting to. And [47:00] he's like, "If I did it all again, I [47:02] would do the exact same thing I did." [47:04] I'm very skeptical of these people that [47:06] gets in their lives is like, "Oh, I have [47:07] this regret." Because I think this [47:09] personality type, it's almost like a [47:10] compulsion. If they played out life [47:11] again, they'd want to do it the same [47:13] way. I talked to uh Jeffrey Gatsenberg [47:16] about this who's very interesting. See, [47:17] he swears he has no talent. He just [47:19] throws at everything. It's like, [47:20] Jeffrey, you're obviously [ __ ] [47:21] talented, but [47:23] >> he was telling me about this. He's like, [47:24] "Listen, the biggest thing with your [47:25] kids is like quality of time, not [47:28] quantity." He's just like, "Don't do it [47:30] where like you're on the phone or you're [47:32] like distracted." Like, if you only have [47:35] 10 hours a week with them, make those [47:36] the best 10 hours ever. Do a ton of [47:39] planning with it. Like, make it so they [47:40] it's so memorable with them. I thought [47:42] that was an interesting uh idea and like [47:44] recommendation. But look at the people [47:45] like the AI race right now. This is the [47:47] game of kings. [47:49] >> I I I met Deis Hassabis. He just did a [47:51] an interview on Fortune where he's just [47:53] like his schedule is he has like his [47:55] thinking time from like 11:00 p.m. to 4 [47:58] in the morning, right? And he goes to [48:00] sleep, then he works a full day at the [48:01] office the next day, then has dinner [48:03] with his wife and kids, and then does [48:05] his thinking time again. You think he's [48:07] balanced? He's got two work days. Like, [48:11] >> okay, you studied all these people. I [48:14] spent all my time with with Sequoia [48:16] founders now. advice to them [48:20] how to become iconic that someone that [48:23] that you would read their book and do an [48:26] episode on them. I think the the best [48:28] founders like don't need advice. I'm [48:30] very skeptical of this narrative that [48:33] like we back and discover the greatest [48:36] talent. The way I would put this is like [48:38] Michael Jordan said something very [48:39] interesting. He was at the end of his [48:41] career and Kobe Bryant's coming in. [48:42] They're like, "We we discovered the, you [48:44] know, Michael Jordan. We discovered the [48:45] next or the next Michael Jordan through [48:46] Kobe Bryant." And he's like, "This will [48:49] happen again. There will be another me." [48:51] Yeah. [48:52] >> And he goes, "First of all, you didn't [48:53] discover me. I just happen to come [48:54] around." And I think the best founders [48:56] are like that. Like they're not [48:58] discovered. They make themselves known. [49:01] >> And I'm highly skeptical. Like these are [49:03] force of nature. Again, go back to Mike [49:05] Mortz, the forward that he wrote in the [49:07] Return to Little Kingdom. In a [49:08] paragraph, he can describe what a [49:10] founder is. He's like, "These are [49:11] irrepressible. This is the line he says [49:12] about jobs and the best founders. [49:14] They're irrepressible forces of nature. [49:16] >> They don't need your advice. They will [49:18] find the information and if they want it [49:20] from you, they will seek you out. They [49:22] will find you. [49:23] >> But going around like, oh, uh, I would, [49:26] you know, paint that a little different [49:27] or I would do it a different way. It's [49:29] like they've got it. [49:30] >> Yeah, I think you're mostly right about [49:32] that. I don't proactively give advice. [49:36] If they ask me, I give it to them. And I [49:38] think they're good about sort of ranking [49:39] it in their head and like, I'll take [49:40] that. I'm going to throw that away. [49:42] >> And to the degree like I am somewhat [49:44] helpful in this domain and I'm trying to [49:46] be. All I'm trying to do is like, hey, [49:48] I'm going to go and read these obscure [49:49] books. There's a gold mine here of all [49:51] this pass entrepreneurial knowledge. No [49:53] one's [ __ ] doing anything with it. [49:54] I'm going to like a goddamn demon go and [49:57] mine this for you. I'm going to make it [49:58] into a podcast that you can listen to in [50:00] 45 minutes or an hour while your eyes [50:01] are busy doing something else and [50:03] hopefully push this information down to [50:05] the next generation of entrepreneurs. [50:06] think that active service is a life [50:07] well-lived but I'll get to the end of my [50:09] life. [50:10] >> He's like they'll figure it out. They [50:12] don't know what to do with it. Like I [50:13] don't over explain [ __ ] You listen to [50:14] founders like I don't over explain [ __ ] [50:16] It's like this guy did that. Nope. [50:17] >> And even when they do ask I'm like I [50:18] don't know man. Ford did this way. This [50:19] is the way this guy did this. It's like [50:21] you pick what's right for you. [50:22] >> One of the things that I think is [50:23] interesting about you is there's [50:24] actually not that many patterns like the [50:26] whole episode kind of pushing on. [50:27] >> I would I would say it's not formulaic. [50:30] There's patterns. There's no formula. [50:31] >> Any other patterns we haven't hit? I [50:34] think just a deep caring and love of [50:35] what you're doing and the problem you're [50:37] solving. In some cases, it's like, let [50:38] me give you example. Ed Camel talks [50:39] about the very first time he met Steve [50:41] Jobs. He very first time he met Steve [50:42] Jobs, before Steve got kicked out of [50:43] Apple the first time, [50:44] >> you know what Steve would talk about for [50:46] an hour? He would just use the word [50:47] insanely great products over and over [50:49] again. [50:49] >> Yeah. [50:49] >> It was still, it was important to him [50:51] when he was 19, when he was 25. It was [50:54] still important to him right when he was [50:55] dying. He just was obsessed with [50:56] insanely great products. No founders [50:58] ever talk about I want to make a lot of [51:00] money. How much do you think people [51:01] being motivated by money matters? Or do [51:04] you think they whitewash that out with [51:07] we want an insanely great product? [51:09] >> I don't think small egos build big [51:11] companies and therefore this is what I [51:14] actually think. [51:14] >> I don't think small egos build big [51:16] companies. [51:16] >> I think all of these people have giant [51:18] egos. I think some of them are just [51:19] better at hiding it. And I think that [51:22] what what motivates most founders is not [51:25] money, it's control. And if you maintain [51:27] control and you build a business or a [51:29] product that makes somebody else's life [51:30] better, that's all business is. A [51:32] business is just an idea that makes [51:33] somebody else's life better. So if you [51:35] maintain control and you build a product [51:36] that makes somebody else's life better, [51:38] you wind up with the money anyways. [51:40] >> Yeah. It's a side effect. [51:42] >> Yeah. [51:43] >> Um [51:44] >> they know that they're going to get the [51:45] money. [51:45] >> Yeah. [51:46] >> I can't think of I mean Rockefeller, [51:48] >> you don't think they're born very [51:49] motivated by money? They're they're [51:52] >> Especially if you're poor. [51:53] >> They have large egos. By the way, I look [51:55] through those 10 CEO the founders of the [51:57] American companies. [51:59] In general, there's this narrative that [52:01] they all grew up poor. In generally, [52:02] they were upper middle class suburban [52:04] families, which that surprised me, [52:06] >> especially in the tech industry. Yeah. [52:08] >> But Bezos was a son of a single mom like [52:11] and his dad dipped out like [52:13] >> But mostly they were suburban upper [52:15] middle class families. [52:16] >> Yeah. Yeah. Like Gates, Zuck, Zuckworth. [52:20] >> Yeah. Mostly. [52:20] >> Yeah. [52:21] >> All right. any advice for life advice [52:23] for me? I'm on my second act. [52:26] >> I think Dana White, there's like a [52:28] simple genius to what how Dana White [52:30] runs his company that I really admire. [52:32] He just told me something funny. He's [52:32] like, "I've never read a single book on [52:34] business. I've never listened to a [52:35] single podcast." Which is hilarious. He [52:37] said this because we talked a bunch [52:38] after. And his thing was just like [52:41] deeply know who you are. Like you've got [52:44] to know for a fact. And he's like, "I've [52:45] known who I am for exactly who I am for [52:47] a long time." This is what Dana was [52:48] telling me. He's like, "Understand [52:50] deeply who you are. Understand deeply [52:53] what you want to do in this world. And [52:54] then once you figure out those two [52:56] things, you just wake up every day and [52:58] get after it." [52:59] >> And I think there's like this simple [53:00] genius to that. You think when he [53:01] started UFC when they bought it for $2 [53:03] million, 2 million with an M that they [53:06] were going to do that there was such [53:07] thing Streaming didn't even exist, [53:09] right? It didn't even exist. You stay in [53:12] the game long enough to get lucky. [53:13] That's a maximum repeats over and over [53:14] again. And you think he could have [53:16] predicted back then he was going to sign [53:16] an $8 billion? like that maximum. [53:19] >> Yeah. Stay in the game long enough to [53:20] get lucky. You guys are jumping around [53:22] too much. This is what kills me about [53:23] these founders. They have a million [53:24] different ideas. I'm like, I'm going to [53:25] start, scale, sell. Okay, then what? [53:28] >> Everybody's like, I go, what's the best [53:30] company that uh that you can think of [53:31] right now? They're like, oh, SpaceX. [53:33] >> Elon founded when he's 30, 25 years ago. [53:36] >> He didn't jump around like he did other [53:38] [ __ ] but he didn't let go of that [53:39] thing. All the values in the future. [53:41] This is uh I think really important. But [53:43] I think back to Dana's point, it's just [53:44] like spend a lot of time understanding [53:46] who you are as a person and what you [53:47] want to do in the world. And then from [53:48] there, then you just wake up every day [53:50] and opportunity handled well leads to [53:53] more opportunity. And so Dana handled [53:56] that opportunity well. Couldn't have [53:57] predicted. He did an $8 billion [53:59] streaming deal, right? And he goes, [54:00] "What do you think my next deal is going [54:01] to look like?" Obviously a lot bigger. [54:04] >> Yeah. [54:04] >> I think that's hugely important. [54:06] >> Okay. I want to thank you not just for [54:08] coming on the pod, but I've been [54:09] listening to your content for a long [54:11] time and as a CEO is super helpful. It's [54:13] super helpful to I'm sure tons of CEOs [54:15] out here. So, you're the man. I [54:18] appreciate you. Thanks for coming on the [54:19] pod. [54:19] >> Thanks for the invite. [54:20] >> Thank you for being David Center. [54:21] >> Appreciate it. [54:22] >> I hope you like that episode with David. [54:24] He's a very interesting cat, very [54:25] knowledgeable. I had um three takeaways [54:28] from it. First is he talks a lot about [54:31] focus. I think it's beyond that. I think [54:34] it's obsession and this may be me but I [54:38] think in general at Sequoia we look for [54:40] founders that are obsessed with the [54:42] problem. We look for people who have [54:43] gone very deep down a rabbit hole and [54:46] been obsessed with it earlier in their [54:47] careers and then today when they're [54:50] building the company to be very deep [54:52] down that rabbit hole have very deep [54:54] founder market fit. Like that's a common [54:57] trait of the best founders that he's [55:00] interviewed and the best founders that [55:03] I've had on the show and the best [55:04] founders that I coach is just a deep [55:06] deep obsession. The ability to mute the [55:09] world and build your own. I really like [55:11] that quote. The second aha, this is kind [55:13] of depressing. It is very very difficult [55:16] to have good work life balance as a [55:18] founder. Uh he went very deep on 400 [55:22] founders. only three had what he thought [55:25] was a very well-balanced life. This [55:27] isn't great news for me. I didn't have a [55:29] great uh balanced life. I didn't have I [55:32] didn't have a lot of free time when I [55:34] was a founder and I don't know a lot of [55:37] successful founders that did. So, if [55:39] you're thinking about starting a company [55:40] or becoming a CEO, be careful. It's a [55:43] lot of work if you really want to do it [55:45] well. The last piece that I was curious [55:48] about was this idea of impostor mode. I [55:52] have imposttor mode. I did when I was [55:53] the CEO big time. I was always a little [55:56] bit nervous. [55:57] I liked what David had to say about it. [55:59] I liked even more what Brian Chesy has [56:02] to say about it. When he was early in [56:04] Airbnb, [56:06] he kind of led from a position of fear. [56:09] He had deep deep imposttor syndrome. And [56:13] Brian has done a lot of work on himself. [56:14] And now he leads from a position of [56:16] love. I'm trying to be more like Brian. [56:20] Like what I love is helping CEOs and [56:23] founders like yourself go on that [56:25] journey from early stage startup founder [56:28] to big behemoth legendary scaleup CEO [56:32] and I'm trying to lead from a position [56:34] of love versus a position of fear. I [56:37] recommend you do the same. Hope you like [56:39] the episode. Uh you can follow me at [56:41] Bhaligan onx and we can chat about it [56:43] more.