Stand-up Maths
AI-assisted summary of Why is there no equation for the perimeter of an ellipse‽ — original source. Check the original for full context.
Source published:
Key ideas
- Unlike its area formula (πab), an ellipse possesses no closed-form elementary equation for its perimeter, requiring reliance on approximations or infinite series. (0:00)
- Srinivasa Ramanujan developed two famous perimeter approximations; his second formula, incorporating the auxiliary parameter h, is roughly 1,000 times more accurate than standard algebraic approaches. (10:00)
- Using brute-force computer optimization, Matt Parker derived a custom formula that outperforms Ramanujan's first approximation at axis ratios above 2.4, as well as a simplified 'lazy' root-free formula bounded under 6.1% error. (8:00)
- Matt Parker points out that the familiar circular circumference formula (2πr) is conceptually an illusion of simplicity, as the infinite series inherent to curve rectification is merely hidden inside the definition of π. (13:30)
Detailed notes
## Background This video was published on YouTube by Matt Parker on his channel Stand-up Maths on September 5, 2020. The page description explains that the video explores why there is no simple elementary equation for the perimeter of an ellipse, introduces Parker's own approximation equations, and invites viewers to submit improved approximations to his puzzle channel while featuring a charity auction and links to his podcast.
## TL;DR Matt Parker investigates the surprising mathematical fact that while the area of an ellipse has a neat closed formula, its perimeter cannot be expressed with standard elementary equations and requires infinite series or approximations. He evaluates classic historical estimates, including Kepler's geometric mean and Srinivasa Ramanujan's remarkably accurate formulas, before using computational brute force to craft his own competing equation. Parker then develops an intentionally simple, root-free 'lazy' approximation that stays remarkably accurate across wide aspect ratios, ultimately revealing that even the familiar perimeter formula for a circle merely hides an infinite series behind the constant π.
## Atmosphere & style The presentation is energetic, comedic, and charmingly self-deprecating, blending genuine mathematical enthusiasm with playful silliness. Parker balances rigorous graphical error analyses against lighthearted admissions of laptop-assisted brute force and petty computational rivalry with Ramanujan. The pacing feels informal yet intellectually engaging, punctuated by musical community parodies and the cozy, lively vibe of a passionate science communicator having fun with numbers.
## Bulletin - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=0s) Unlike its area formula (πab), an ellipse possesses no closed-form elementary equation for its perimeter, requiring reliance on approximations or infinite series. - [10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=600s) Srinivasa Ramanujan developed two famous perimeter approximations; his second formula, incorporating the auxiliary parameter h, is roughly 1,000 times more accurate than standard algebraic approaches. - [08:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=480s) Using brute-force computer optimization, Matt Parker derived a custom formula that outperforms Ramanujan's first approximation at axis ratios above 2.4, as well as a simplified 'lazy' root-free formula bounded under 6.1% error. - [13:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=810s) Matt Parker points out that the familiar circular circumference formula (2πr) is conceptually an illusion of simplicity, as the infinite series inherent to curve rectification is merely hidden inside the definition of π.
## Key takeaways - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=0s) An ellipse generalizes a circle with semi-major axis a and semi-minor axis b, but lacks a clean closed-form elementary formula for its perimeter despite having a simple area formula (πab). - [00:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=40s) The geometric properties of an ellipse depend on auxiliary terms like the parameter h = ((a - b)/(a + b))^2 and the eccentricity e = sqrt(a^2 - b^2)/a. - [04:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=240s) Johannes Kepler originally had to rely on approximations rather than exact formulas to compute the orbital paths and distances of planets. - [05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=300s) The naive arithmetic mean approximation P ≈ π(a + b) stays under 10% error up to an axis ratio of roughly 4.8, while the geometric mean performs significantly worse. - [06:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=360s) The root mean square approximation P ≈ 2π*sqrt((a^2 + b^2)/2), often incorrectly assumed to be exact, achieves under 7.8% error at an aspect ratio of 5 and stays under 10% past a ratio of 10. - [07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=420s) Ramanujan's first perimeter approximation vastly outperforms basic means, keeping percentage error below 0.015% across aspect ratios from 1 to 5. - [08:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=480s) Using a laptop to run brute-force numerical searches, Matt Parker derived an oscillatory approximation formula that surpasses Ramanujan's first formula for aspect ratios exceeding 2.4. - [10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=600s) Ramanujan's second approximation, which relies on parameter h, proves approximately 1,000 times more accurate than both Ramanujan's first formula and Parker's optimized formula. - [11:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=670s) Matt Parker's root-free 'lazy approximation' P ≈ π(1.2a + 0.75b) avoids roots entirely and never exceeds 6.1% error across any aspect ratio. - [13:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=810s) True perimeter calculation requires evaluating an infinite series in powers of h, such as P = π(a + b)[1 + (1/4)h + (1/64)h^2 + ...]. - [14:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=855s) The apparent neatness of the circle circumference formula 2πr merely sweeps an infinite series under the definition of π, meaning circles are fundamentally as messy as ellipses. - [17:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=1020s) Community contributions in prime hunting yielded two massive new primes where tan(p) > p, containing 1,017 digits and 35,085 digits respectively.
## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=0s) Definitions and the Missing Formula
Matt Parker introduces the ellipse as a generalized circle: while a standard circle relies on a single radius $r$, an ellipse features both a semi-major axis $a$ and a semi-minor axis $b$. The area generalizes cleanly from $\pi r^2$ ($r \times r$) to $\pi a b$. However, while the perimeter (circumference) of a circle is simply $2\pi r$, there is no neat, closed-form elementary equation for the perimeter of an ellipse. Matt reacts with utter shock: “There's no neat equation for the perimeter of an ellipse. It's insane!”
Before diving into the problem, Matt outlines the key parameters and geometry associated with ellipses: - **Major and Minor Axes ($a$ and $b$):** The longest and shortest semi-diameters of the ellipse. Throughout his analysis, Matt treats $b = 1$ to express everything as an axis ratio $a/b$, noting that any resulting perimeter can simply be scaled by multiplying by the actual value of $b$. - **Auxiliary Parameter $h$:** Defined algebraically as $h = \frac{(a - b)^2}{(a + b)^2}$. While admitting he doesn't know its direct physical meaning, Matt points out that it proves extraordinarily handy in subsequent elliptical calculations. - **Eccentricity ($e$):** Defined algebraically as $e = \frac{\sqrt{a^2 - b^2}}{a}$. This serves as a geometric metric of deviation from circularity; an eccentricity of $0$ corresponds to a circle, while values approaching $1$ represent increasingly extreme, flattened ellipses. - **Focal Points and String Construction:** Unlike a circle (which has a single center point), an ellipse has two focal points. An ellipse is defined as the locus of all points where the sum of the distances to both foci is constant. This allows anyone to construct an ellipse by tethering a fixed length of string between two pins at the focal points and tracing around them with a pencil. Furthermore, if $c$ represents the distance from the center to either focal point, the eccentricity is simply $e = c / a$.
Matt mentions that Jane Street is the principal sponsor of the Stand-up Maths channel, highlighting open applications for paid internships across New York, Hong Kong, and London, before returning to the mystery of the missing perimeter formula. The spark came from an email sent by a viewer named David, who expressed pure bewilderment that no well-defined formula exists. When Matt rushed over to tell his wife, Lucie Green, her immediate reaction was: “'But what about orbits?'” As it turns out, Johannes Kepler himself had to rely on approximations to calculate the orbital paths and travel distances of planets.
```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Parameters of an Ellipse accDescr: Diagram showing how semi-axes a and b define the perimeter problem, auxiliary parameters, and physical focal properties. subgraph Axes["Primary Dimensions"] A["Semi-major axis (a)"] B["Semi-minor axis (b)"] end
subgraph Derived["Derived Parameters"] H["h = (a - b)² / (a + b)²"] E["Eccentricity: e = √(a² - b²) / a"] C["Center-to-focus distance (c): e = c / a"] end
subgraph Perimeter["Perimeter Problem"] NoEq["No elementary exact formula"] Approx["Approximations required (e.g. Kepler)"] end
A --> H B --> H A --> E B --> E E --> C A --> NoEq B --> NoEq NoEq --> Approx ```
---
[05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=300s) Classic Approximations and Ramanujan’s Formula
Matt begins testing classic approximations across a standard aspect ratio range running from $a/b = 1$ (a perfect circle) up to $a/b = 5$ (an ellipse five times as long as it is wide). The baseline approaches yield mixed results: - **Arithmetic Mean Approximation:** Averaging the two axes gives an effective radius $r_{\text{avg}} = \frac{a + b}{2}$, leading to $P \approx 2\pi\left(\frac{a + b}{2}\right) = \pi(a + b)$. This naive formula performs reasonably well initially, staying under a $10\%$ percentage error until the ratio reaches approximately $4.8$. - **Geometric Mean Approximation:** Using the geometric mean $\sqrt{ab}$ as the radius (a method believed to have been used by Kepler) performs substantially worse, with the error curve rocketing past $15\%$ at an axis ratio of just $2.63$. - **Root Mean Square (RMS) Approximation:** Taking the square root of the average of the squares, $\sqrt{\frac{a^2 + b^2}{2}}$—a formula often mistakenly claimed online to be the exact perimeter—fares far better than the arithmetic mean. At an aspect ratio of $5$, its error is only $7.8\%$, and it stays under $10\%$ error until the ratio surpasses $10$.
After a brief musical interlude (“A total ellipse of the chart”), Matt introduces an approximation discovered by Srinivasa Ramanujan: $$P \approx \pi \left[ 3(a + b) - \sqrt{(3a + b)(a + 3b)} \right]$$ Plotting Ramanujan’s formula requires shifting the error plot's vertical axis down by a factor of 1,000—now measuring tiny fractions of a percent ($0.005\%$, $0.01\%$, and $0.015\%$). Matt praises this incredible accuracy, noting that “Ramanujan, as always, has come up with the good.”
| Approximation Formula | Type / Description | Error Behavior ($a/b$ from 1 to 5) | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | $P \approx \pi(a + b)$ | Arithmetic Mean | Stays under $10\%$ error until $a/b \approx 4.8$ | | $P \approx 2\pi\sqrt{ab}$ | Geometric Mean (Kepler) | Degrades quickly; exceeds $15\%$ error at $a/b = 2.63$ | | $P \approx 2\pi\sqrt{\frac{a^2 + b^2}{2}}$ | Quadratic Mean / RMS | Only $7.8\%$ error at ratio $5$; stays under $10\%$ past ratio $10$ | | $P \approx \pi [3(a+b) - \sqrt{(3a+b)(a+3b)}]$ | Ramanujan's First Approximation | Extremely low error; stays under $0.015\%$ across the range |
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[08:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=480s) Matt's Computational Formula
Matt points out that while he lacks Ramanujan’s generational genius, he possesses modern computational firepower: “Here's the thing, for all of Ramanujan's incredible once-in-a-generation genius and just mathematical insight, I've got something that they didn't have. I've got a laptop.”
Using brute-force optimization code to search for an equivalent or superior approximation, Matt arrived at his own custom formula: $$P \approx \pi \left[ \frac{53a}{3} + \frac{717b}{35} - \sqrt{269a^2 + 667ab + 371b^2} \right]$$
When plotted against Ramanujan’s formula, Matt’s curve shows distinct characteristics: - At lower aspect ratios close to a circle ($a/b$ near $1$), Ramanujan’s approximation is distinctly superior. - Instead of curving steadily upwards, Matt's error graph oscillates, bouncing along the axis. Because the plot tracks absolute percentage error, these bounces represent zero-crossings where the formula alternates between slightly overestimating and slightly underestimating the true perimeter. - At an aspect ratio of approximately $2.4$, the curves cross: “the tide starts to turn at a value of 2.4. And after that, my formula does better.” - Matt designed the formula deliberately so that its oscillations keep the absolute error lower over a broader span, outperforming Ramanujan when averaged over the entire range of ratios from $1$ to $5$.
[10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=600s) Ramanujan’s Second Approximation and Matt’s Lazy Formula
Matt Parker compares his own formula to Srinivasa Ramanujan's first approximation, noting that on average his formula performs roughly twice as well in absolute error terms. However, he acknowledges that Ramanujan's formula has aesthetic and practical advantages: Ramanujan's is symmetric (the semi-major axis $a$ and semi-minor axis $b$ can be swapped interchangeably), whereas Matt's requires $a$ to strictly be the larger value. Matt's pride is quickly tempered by Ramanujan’s second approximation: $$\text{Perimeter} \approx \pi (a + b) \left( 1 + \frac{3h}{10 + \sqrt{4 - 3h}} \right) \quad \text{where } h = \frac{(a - b)^2}{(a + b)^2}$$ When plotted on the error graph, Ramanujan’s second approximation appears as an almost flat line along the bottom of the chart. It is roughly 1,000 times more accurate than both Ramanujan's first formula and Matt's formula, prompting Matt to concede: “So once again, well played Ramanujan, well played. There's nothing I can say, a total ellipse of the chart.” Anticipating that viewers will label his slightly flawed formula the "Parker Ellipse Approximation," he decides to lean into the concept and design an intentionally "lazy" approximation that avoids square roots entirely.
```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Comparison of Ellipse Perimeter Approximations accDescr: Flowchart contrasting Ramanujan's high-precision second formula with Parker's low-computation lazy formula. subgraph Ramanujan["Ramanujan's Approach"] R2["Second Approximation<br/>Uses h parameter & square root"] R2Perf["~1,000x more accurate<br/>Virtually flat line on chart"] end subgraph Parker["Parker's Lazy Approach"] PLazy["Formula: π(1.2a + 0.75b)"] PPerf["No roots needed<br/>Never exceeds 6.1% error"] end R2 --> R2Perf PLazy --> PPerf ```
His lazy approximation formula is: $$\text{Perimeter} \approx \pi (1.2a + 0.75b) = \pi \left(\frac{6}{5}a + \frac{3}{4}b\right)$$ Plotted against the other simple methods, it initially underestimates the perimeter, crosses zero, and then becomes an overestimation. When the aspect ratio axis is expanded from 1 to 20, the formula demonstrates impressive stability: - It starts with an error of $2.5\%$ for a circle ($a = b$). - It dips, crosses zero, and climbs back to $2.5\%$ error. - It stays under $2.5\%$ error until the ratio reaches $a/b = 14.4$. - It does not hit a $5\%$ error until an aspect ratio greater than $75$, with Matt asking, “and who's having an ellipse which is 75 times as wide as it is high. That's just ridiculous.” - Across all aspect ratios, the lazy formula never yields an error worse than $6.1\%$. - Matt notes that picking messier non-round decimal coefficients instead of $1.2$ and $0.75$ could optimize accuracy even further without adding computational complexity.
---
[13:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=810s) Infinite Series and the Reality of $\pi$
To compute the "true" perimeter of an ellipse, one cannot rely on standard closed-form algebraic expressions; an infinite series is required. Matt shares his favorite series expansion, which relies on the factor $\pi(a+b)$ and powers of $h$: $$\text{Perimeter} = \pi (a + b) \left[ 1 + \frac{1}{4}h + \frac{1}{64}h^2 + \frac{1}{256}h^3 + \dots \right]$$ For quick checks, evaluating up to the $h^6$ term provided sufficient precision, while extending to the $h^{10}$ term offered thorough precision for his benchmark calculations.
```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: Circle Perimeter vs Ellipse Perimeter Representation accDescr: Diagram illustrating how circular perimeter disguises infinite series complexity inside pi. subgraph Circle["Circle Perimeter: 2πr"] C1["Looks neat and tidy"] --> C2["Infinite series hidden under π"] end subgraph Ellipse["General Ellipse Perimeter"] E1["Requires infinite series in h"] --> E2["Each aspect ratio has its own constant"] end ```
Matt points out that this lack of a neat formula is not unique to stretched ellipses: the perimeter of a circle ($2\pi r$) is equally disorderly under the hood. The circle’s perimeter formula only appears tidy because humanity has swept the infinite series under the rug: “The thing is, normally we just sweep all of these terms up and then we hide them underneath the pi symbol, hoping no one will notice. But they're still in there. Just because it looks neat and tidy See? Check it out. Look, see? All those terms, they're still hidden in there. We just get fooled by how cute and adorable pi looks.” Every ellipse aspect ratio could theoretically have its own unique circle-constant equivalent to $\pi$. While $\pi$ retains a special universal status for ellipse *area* ($\text{Area} = \pi a b$), when it comes to perimeter, all ellipses—including circles—are fundamentally ill-behaved.
---
[15:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=940s) Announcements, Primes, and the Charity Auction
Matt transitions to channel updates and community business ("AOB"): - **Jane Street Internships:** Jane Street is accepting internship applications across multiple disciplines for current or recent students. Typical runs are 10 to 12 weeks between May and September 2021 (with scheduling flexibility) across their London, New York, and Hong Kong offices. Matt notes he has visited all three offices and routinely presents to the London interns, staying afterward for pizza and drinks. - **A Podcast of Unnecessary Detail:** Matt announces the launch of a new podcast alongside his *Festival of the Spoken Nerd* collaborators Helen Arney and Steve Mould, based on their live show. Three episodes are live, with three more scheduled to drop. - **Prime Number Update:** Following an earlier video regarding prime numbers where $\tan(p) > p$, viewers discovered two massive new examples: several people found a prime with 1,017 digits, and another contributor found one with 35,085 digits. - **Matt Parker's Maths Puzzles:** Matt issues a community challenge on his puzzle channel: can viewers derive an approximation formula that beats his? A video reviewing the best submissions will be published shortly after a one-week submission window. - **Charity Auction on eBay:** The original cardboard ellipse drawn during the video with a drilled pen, two push pins, and a loop of thread is being auctioned on eBay to benefit WaterAid. Matt promises to sign the board and write both of his new approximation equations on its face (excluding only the backing pin-up board).
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[19:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=1190s) "A Total Ellipse of the Chart" Outro
The video concludes with a musical parody sequence of Bonnie Tyler’s "Total Eclipse of the Heart," titled *"A Total Ellipse of the Chart,"* sung by a chorus of contributors (including Helen Arney, Steve Hardwick, Victoria Saigle, Andrew McLaren, Fractal, Macey, and Sören Kowalick). Mid-song, Helen Arney interjects with spoken comedic "subliminal messaging" urging viewers to listen to *A Podcast of Unnecessary Detail* with herself, Matt Parker, and Steve Mould across podcast platforms and YouTube, before the vocal harmonies swell back in with repeated choruses of “A total ellipse of the chart.”
## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0&t=0s) There's no neat equation for the perimeter of an ellipse. It's insane! — Matt Parker
## Mentioned Matt Parker, Jane Street, Lucie Green, Johannes Kepler, David, Srinivasa Ramanujan, Helen Arney, Steve Mould, Steve Hardwick, Victoria Saigle, Andrew McLaren, Fractal, Macey, Sören Kowalick, Bonnie Tyler, Festival of the Spoken Nerd, A Podcast of Unnecessary Detail, WaterAid, eBay
## Video description Jane Street are still offering amazing internships: https://jane-st.co/SUM-internships
A Podcast of Unnecessary Detail is out now: https://festivalofthespokennerd.com/podcast/ Come for the Unnecessary Detail, stay for the A Podcast Of.
These are my approximation equations: perimeter ≈ π[53a/3 + 717b/35 - √(269a^2 + 667ab + 371b^2)] perimeter ≈ π(6a/5 + 3b/4)
If you can do better, submit it to Matt Parker's Maths Puzzles. https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=qJSHdJX6gB0 https://www.think-maths.co.uk/ellipsepuzzle
This was my pervious video featuring ellipsoids: https://youtu.be/l51LcwHOW7s
You can buy the ellipse from this video on eBay. I've written on my two new equations and signed it. All money goes to charity (the fantastic Water Aid). https://www.ebay.co.uk/itm/363096345270
Bonus content and a deleted scene are available on my Patreon. https://www.patreon.com/posts/41274351
Huge thanks to all who sent in a recording of them singing "A total ellipse of the chart." Sorry I could not include everyone. These are the people in the video:
Helen Arney Steve Hardwick Victoria Saigle Andrew McLaren Fractal Macey Sören Kowalick
It all started because of a request I put out on twitter. https://twitter.com/standupmaths/status/1301252952930299904
CORRECTIONS: - So far the only times (I've noticed that) I say "eclipse" instead of "ellipse" are 5:01 and 05:26 which was just after talking about my wife who is a solar physicist. So I think we split the blame 50/50. - It seems everyone but me recognised the Root Mean Square. I think I only associate that with current for some reason! Thanks all. - Let me know if you spot any other mistakes!
Thanks to my Patreons who meant I could spend about a week trying to find approximations for the length of ellipses. "Are you still working on that?" Lucie would - rightfully - ask over the weekend. "I'm going the extra mile for my patreon people!" I would reply. Here is a random subset of those fine folks:
Benjamin Richter Louie Ruck Matthew Holland Morgan Butt Rathe Hollingum Jeremy Buchanan Sjoerd Wennekes Barry Pitcairn James Dexter Adrian Cowan
https://www.patreon.com/standupmaths
As always: thanks to Jane Street who support my channel. They're amazing. https://www.janestreet.com/
Filming and editing by Matt Parker Additional camera work by Lucie Green VFX by Industrial Matt and Parker Music by Howard Carter Design by Simon Wright and Adam Robinson
MATT PARKER: Stand-up Mathematician Website: http://standupmaths.com/ US book: https://www.penguinrandomhouse.com/books/610964/humble-pi-by-matt-parker/ UK book: https://mathsgear.co.uk/collections/books/products/humble-pi-signed-paperback
[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=5nW3nJhBHL0)