Block CEO Jack Dorsey Rebuilds Company Around AI, Eliminates 40% of Jobs

Block CEO Jack Dorsey 围绕 AI 重构公司，裁减 40% 岗位 传统企业层级制度已显过时，因为公司可以将其全部运营建模为一个内部 AI 智能层，以取代中层管理并实时响应客户意图。 在本次讨论中，Jack Dorsey 概述了一种基于第一性原理的组织设计方法，即通过由数字化远程办公留存数据提供支持的中心化 AI 智能层，取代传统且存在信息损耗的管理链条。为实现理论上可允许数千人直接向 CEO 汇报的高度扁平化结构，Block 正在将员工队伍精简为三种核心人类角色：个人贡献者（Individual Contributors）、直接责任人（Directly Responsible Individuals）和实战教练（Player Coaches）。Dorsey 与 Roelof Botha 阐述了这一范式转变如何推动公司从静态路线图转向实时的对话式客户互动，同时也深入探讨了执行大规模裁员、打造高信任度董事会以及同时管理多家公司的运营现实。归根结底，AI 时代的领导力被重新定义为人类判断力、品味和快速心智重构的能力，而非官僚式的命令与控制。 传统的企业层级属于低效且信息损耗严重的沟通链条，Block 正在远程工作产生的数字资产之上构建“智能层”，将整套组织重塑为任何人均可实时调用的“微型 AGI”。 (2:38) Block 计划将汇报层级从 5 层压缩至 2 到 3 层乃至完全扁平，并将全员标准化为三大核心角色：AI 赋能的独立贡献者（IC）、对结果负责的直接责任人（DRI）以及以身作则指导团队的教练型选手（Player Coach）。 (8:20) 在 AI 突破性掌握大型遗留代码库后，Jack Dorsey 主动裁员 40% 以彻底围绕 AI 重塑公司，通过三步法严格测算系统运行、合规及重构所需的精简人力，以绝后患地避免陷入每年裁员 10% 至 20% 的恶性循环。 (30:57) 组织形态正从管理者模式与创始人模式演进为环形的“Dorsey 模式”：AI 处于中心并提供完备上下文，人类在边缘把控目标函数与判断力，产品则通过对话式界面让客户意图直接驱动企业路线图。 (21:30)

Jack Dorsey proposes restructuring companies from traditional human communication hierarchies into centralized intelligence systems, or 'mini-AGIs,' powered by real-time digital work artifacts. Under this model, organizations flatten management layers, replace static roadmaps with customer-driven intent queries, and reposition human labor around judgment, taste, and coaching. Replacing Human Relay Hierarchies with Intelligence Layers (2:38) Dorsey argues that corporate hierarchies originated over 2,000 years ago as lossy, human-intermediated communication networks designed to relay information across scales. In modern remote-first companies, daily operations naturally produce a comprehensive digital trail—such as Slack messages, emails, GitHub pull requests, documents, and recorded meetings. Rather than relying on human management chains to pass status reports up and down, Dorsey contends organizations can overlay an intelligence layer directly on these artifacts to allow anyone to query company activity in real time. At Block, Dorsey is piloting this transition by aiming to compress the organizational depth between the CEO and frontline employees from five layers down to two or three, with an ultimate theoretical ideal of a flat structure of 6,000 employees reporting directly into the intelligence layer. Dorsey notes that real-time querying also reframes governance, allowing board meetings and analyst updates to focus on existential strategy and creative decisions rather than preparing static presentation decks. Three Core Roles and Four-Layer Architecture (8:20) To operate as an intelligence system, Block is normalizing its workforce down to three durable roles: Individual Contributors (ICs), Directly Responsible Individuals (DRIs), and Player Coaches. Augmented by AI agents, individual ICs are expected to cover scopes previously requiring ten people, relying primarily on human judgment, creativity, and taste. DRIs take single-threaded ownership of customer outcomes and roadmaps, while Player Coaches replace traditional managers by teaching craft through direct execution rather than occupying permanent supervisory posts. This organizational model supports a four-layer technical architecture: foundational Capabilities (such as card issuing or lending), customer Interfaces (such as Square and Cash App), Proactive Intelligence (which analyzes transaction signals to sequence bills and protect customer cash flow), and a central World Model. In Dorsey's framework, if a customer requests an unbuilt feature, the system should compose it dynamically using existing capabilities; an inability to do so exposes deficiencies that directly determine the company's real roadmap. Structural Reorganization vs. Copilots and Downsizing (30:57) Dorsey and Roelof Botha reject the tech industry's prevailing focus on AI as an incremental 'copilot' or productivity add-on, arguing instead for full structural reorganization. Catalyzed by rapid improvements in coding models in late 2023—and Block’s development of its 'Goose' agentic coding harness in January 2024—Dorsey concluded that modern tooling rendered legacy company sizes and structures obsolete. This assessment led Dorsey to implement a 40% workforce reduction at Block, conceived and brought to the board in less than three weeks. To avoid soul-crushing, recurring 10% to 20% annual layoff cycles, the management team determined headcount through a three-step baseline: the absolute minimum staff required for 100% uptime, the minimum required for legal and regulatory compliance, and the personnel needed for growth and intelligence transformation, plus a buffer for error. Botha and Dorsey maintain that rapid execution preserved organizational integrity and allowed generous severance. Customer Intent and Executive Judgment over Roadmaps (23:03) In an intelligence-centric firm, executive leadership shifts away from operational micromanagement toward setting objective functions—such as gross profit per employee, net promoter score, or growth rate—and exercising taste. Dorsey explains that conversational interfaces provide immediate, high-fidelity customer intent data, superseding slow traditional feedback channels like surveys or support tickets and allowing user queries to drive company decisions directly. Internally, Block has replaced static slide decks with functional, interactive prototypes modified during meetings. Dorsey observes that while AI tools can automate roughly 80% of initial builds, the final 20% depends entirely on human discernment, point of view, and a willingness to withstand reputational pushback. He points to historical resistance from his own board and executives during the early development of Square Capital and Cash App as evidence that true innovation requires leaders to spend and eventually earn back credibility. Dorsey emphasizes that Block is in the early stages of this reorganization and treats the model as an active experiment. Unresolved operational questions remain regarding how to build fully predictive, causal world models, how to overcome tightening distribution channels for new products, and how to avoid the fragmentation Dorsey previously experienced when running business units as a decentralized holding company.

Block创始人Jack Dorsey与红杉资本合伙人Roelof Botha提出，企业应打破延续两千年的管理层级制度，将自身重构为由AI驱动的内部“微型智能体”（mini-AGI）。该构想主张利用日常数字化沉淀建立实时世界模型，由高频客户需求反向定义业务路线，使组织极端扁平化并由人类专注于审美、判断与目标对齐。 走向内部智能体：瓦解两千年层级结构 (2:38) Dorsey指出，传统金字塔式科层制本质上是一种在人类生理规模限制下运转的低效通信工具，信息在传递中必然失真。在远程办公普及的背景下，代码提交、文档、即时通讯及会议音视频持续沉淀出全面的数字化资产。与其依靠管理链条逐级汇报，不如在这些数据资产上构建统一的智能层，将公司建模为一个可供员工、管理层乃至董事会实时查询的微型AGI系统。 这一架构旨在消除信息滤镜与政治摩擦。Dorsey透露，Block正在将CEO与基层员工之间的汇报层级从5层削减至2到3层，终极设想是让全员直接向CEO汇报并通过智能系统协同。Roelof Botha与Dharmesh Shah进一步分析称，这契合《国富论》中依靠高保真信号让去中心化参与者实现最优协同的逻辑，借助智能系统合成上下文，有助于消除官僚厚障，重获早期百人初创企业的高透明度。 三类核心角色与四层系统架构 (8:20) 为支撑极度扁平的智能组织，Block将岗位精简为三类以持久人类技能为锚点的核心角色：依托AI工具放大产能、专注品味与判断力的“独立贡献者”（IC）；对客户成果拥有绝对所有权并组建团队攻坚的“直接责任人”（DRI）；以及取消纯行政职能、通过一线实操传授经验的“教练型球员”（Player Coach）。高管团队则被要求兼具这三种能力。 在底层架构上，Dorsey提出了取代静态产品路线图的四层体系：底层是支付与发卡等核心业务能力（Capabilities）；第二层是Square、Cash App等触达用户的交互界面（Interfaces）；第三层是根据资金流动等高保真交易数据预判需求、主动规划支付顺序的“主动智能”（Proactive Intelligence）；核心层则是对企业及客户有全局认知的“世界模型”（World Model）。系统利用这些能力在对话交互中实时构建功能；若能力存在缺口，则该缺陷直接定义出公司真正的研发重点。 激进重构：裁员40%与系统可读性 (30:57) 针对引发行业关注的40%大幅裁员，Dorsey解释其催化剂源自AI大模型在理解遗留代码库和降低幻觉方面的突飞猛进。管理团队在深入测试后一致认为，若拥有当下的AI开发工具，绝不会按原有规模和架构建公司。团队在三周内完成推演并果断行动，测算过程严格限定于三项最小底线：确保全天候系统可用性的人员、满足严苛金融合规的人员，以及践行智能重构与增长所需的人数，同时预留容错冗余。 Dorsey强调，公开上市公司与其在被动绝境中采取每年递减10%到20%这种消磨心智的微调式裁员，不如主动以更大力度和透明度重组业务。Botha指出，这一迅速推进依托于管理团队与董事会之间基于理性逻辑建立的信任基础。此外，Dorsey反思了此前为Square和Cash App分设CEO所导致的“控股公司”陷阱，指出内部割裂损害了双边金融网络的整体协同，现代治理必须以全局数据的高可读性为基石。 创新代价：承受信誉损耗与原型迭代 (48:19) 在探讨企业跨越生命周期、开辟第二曲线时，Dorsey指出领袖必须做好为了反共识创新而暂时损耗自身信誉的准备。他回忆了早期推进Square Capital信贷业务遭到董事会全面驳回，以及Cash App早期团队仅8人并在内部遭到广泛抵触的历史；尽管Cash App在Block上市招股书中被提及不足8次，如今却贡献了半数以上业务。Dorsey建议领导者将负面反馈视为“无限导师”，从中反思自身偏见而非固守单一权威教条。 在具体研发流程中，工具能力的提升将原型制作时间从数周压缩至数小时，使Block的决策会议由静态演示文稿转向直接操作高保真数据原型，纠错成本趋近于零。Dorsey认为现代团队无需教条式地坚守单一专注，可利用AI快速完成80%的初级构建并进行多线并行实验，人类则集中精力解决最后20%考验审美、品味与判断力的关键细节，始终将AI视作提升思考质量的“输入”而非不假思索直接采纳的“最终输出”。 Dorsey所倡导的智能体企业重组方案在Block仍处于早期验证阶段。尽管其在精简管理汇报深度、研发Goose等智能代理工具以及动态原型开发上已取得进展，但依靠商业世界模型精准推断因果关系以预测商业走势仍处于研究攻坚期；全员6,000人直接向CEO汇报的极端扁平化架构在大规模协同中的抗风险能力与长期可行性，仍有待实践检验。

[2:38] The Core Problem: Traditional hierarchies rely on lossy, human-intermediated chains of communication to pass information up and down. [12:50] Our customers just by using and talking with our systems are telling us what our roadmap should be, and then it's up to us to give the judgment. [16:10] Jack Dorsey: I think most of the industry is thinking about AI as like a co-pilot, as something that is augmented onto rather than like, how do you just rebuild this our whole company with this as the core? [17:58] Jack Dorsey: Every single day it worked. Like every single day I was surprised. [30:57] Ruth Porat: if you're going to eat a [__] sandwich, don't nibble [30:57] Jack Dorsey: Would you build the company this way if you had these tools today? [36:31] Jack Dorsey: a hire you can never fire. [36:31] Jack Dorsey: they can fire you and I've been on the other side of that. [41:29] Jack Dorsey: should not be a goal for anyone. [42:08] Jack Dorsey: decided not to learn something. [42:08] Jack Dorsey: delegating way too much. [48:19] Keith Rabois: solved problem. [53:37] Jack Dorsey: Him saying that he's not introspective is very introspective, I think. [56:23] Roelof Botha: the biggest drainer of moats companies have ever seen [60:01] output rather than better input to create better output ourselves.

[0:01] since last year I've just had this [0:01] since last year I've just had this existential dread and also [0:04] existential dread and also [0:04] existential dread and also like hope [0:06] like hope [0:06] like hope and optimism at in the same hour in the [0:09] and optimism at in the same hour in the [0:09] and optimism at in the same hour in the same thought process of like what is [0:11] same thought process of like what is [0:11] same thought process of like what is even a company going for it like what [0:13] even a company going for it like what [0:13] even a company going for it like what like what are these structures going [0:15] like what are these structures going [0:15] like what are these structures going forward? [0:16] forward? [0:16] forward? And this is the only like durable one [0:19] And this is the only like durable one [0:19] And this is the only like durable one structure that I could actually imagine [0:21] structure that I could actually imagine [0:21] structure that I could actually imagine lasting for quite some time. And it it [0:23] lasting for quite some time. And it it [0:23] lasting for quite some time. And it it was coming from a place of like wow is [0:25] was coming from a place of like wow is [0:25] was coming from a place of like wow is our company just going to be completely [0:26] our company just going to be completely [0:27] our company just going to be completely irrelevant you know in the next coming [0:28] irrelevant you know in the next coming [0:29] irrelevant you know in the next coming years. [0:49] All right everybody we had Jack Dorsey [0:49] All right everybody we had Jack Dorsey on the pod today founder of Twitter and [0:52] on the pod today founder of Twitter and [0:52] on the pod today founder of Twitter and founder of Block. [0:53] founder of Block. [0:53] founder of Block. He's the only founder to have two of his [0:57] He's the only founder to have two of his [0:57] He's the only founder to have two of his companies end up on the S&P 500. [0:59] companies end up on the S&P 500. [0:59] companies end up on the S&P 500. listening that today that's pretty cool. [1:01] listening that today that's pretty cool. [1:01] listening that today that's pretty cool. Also Roelof Botha who's a Square partner [1:05] Also Roelof Botha who's a Square partner [1:05] Also Roelof Botha who's a Square partner and is on Jack's board at Block. The [1:08] and is on Jack's board at Block. The [1:08] and is on Jack's board at Block. The conversation was super interesting to [1:10] conversation was super interesting to [1:10] conversation was super interesting to me. He recently put an article out that [1:13] me. He recently put an article out that [1:13] me. He recently put an article out that you may have seen called from hierarchy [1:16] you may have seen called from hierarchy [1:16] you may have seen called from hierarchy to intelligence. And it's a manifesto [1:19] to intelligence. And it's a manifesto [1:19] to intelligence. And it's a manifesto on how to rethink [1:22] on how to rethink [1:22] on how to rethink basically rethink from the first [1:23] basically rethink from the first [1:23] basically rethink from the first principles how an organization works. [1:25] principles how an organization works. [1:25] principles how an organization works. How do you completely eliminate [1:26] How do you completely eliminate [1:26] How do you completely eliminate hierarchy and how do you put AI right in [1:29] hierarchy and how do you put AI right in [1:29] hierarchy and how do you put AI right in the center and transform how your [1:31] the center and transform how your [1:31] the center and transform how your company works and [1:33] company works and [1:33] company works and I let him go on that and he was very [1:35] I let him go on that and he was very [1:35] I let him go on that and he was very thoughtful and he spoke a lot about it. [1:37] thoughtful and he spoke a lot about it. [1:37] thoughtful and he spoke a lot about it. Block is really changing the way it's [1:39] Block is really changing the way it's [1:39] Block is really changing the way it's organized. Before we started he said I'd [1:43] organized. Before we started he said I'd [1:43] organized. Before we started he said I'd love to get some feedback from you and [1:45] love to get some feedback from you and [1:45] love to get some feedback from you and from other people on this. So if you get [1:46] from other people on this. So if you get [1:46] from other people on this. So if you get comments on it let her rip. He wants [1:49] comments on it let her rip. He wants [1:49] comments on it let her rip. He wants some feedback on it. He's in the early [1:50] some feedback on it. He's in the early [1:50] some feedback on it. He's in the early innings of a big transformation over [1:52] innings of a big transformation over [1:52] innings of a big transformation over there. That was about half of it. The [1:54] there. That was about half of it. The [1:54] there. That was about half of it. The second half of it I just asked him for [1:55] second half of it I just asked him for [1:55] second half of it I just asked him for like CEO advice. I work with lots of [1:59] like CEO advice. I work with lots of [1:59] like CEO advice. I work with lots of CEOs as you folks know. Like how do you [2:01] CEOs as you folks know. Like how do you [2:01] CEOs as you folks know. Like how do you build an amazing board? He's certainly [2:02] build an amazing board? He's certainly [2:03] build an amazing board? He's certainly got some scars around board building. [2:05] got some scars around board building. [2:05] got some scars around board building. How do you build your second act like [2:07] How do you build your second act like [2:07] How do you build your second act like the cash app versus the the original [2:09] the cash app versus the the original [2:09] the cash app versus the the original business of of Square. Is it a good idea [2:13] business of of Square. Is it a good idea [2:13] business of of Square. Is it a good idea to be a CEO of two different companies [2:15] to be a CEO of two different companies [2:15] to be a CEO of two different companies at the same time? [2:17] at the same time? [2:17] at the same time? Being brave and not giving a flock [2:19] Being brave and not giving a flock [2:19] Being brave and not giving a flock versus going with the flow and when do [2:21] versus going with the flow and when do [2:21] versus going with the flow and when do you really dig in and when do you kind [2:23] you really dig in and when do you kind [2:23] you really dig in and when do you kind of go with the flow? And he had some [2:25] of go with the flow? And he had some [2:25] of go with the flow? And he had some really interesting thoughts on the job [2:27] really interesting thoughts on the job [2:27] really interesting thoughts on the job of a modern CEO. So tune in. I'll be [2:30] of a modern CEO. So tune in. I'll be [2:30] of a modern CEO. So tune in. I'll be back at the end and give you some [2:32] back at the end and give you some [2:32] back at the end and give you some further thoughts but I I thought Jack [2:34] further thoughts but I I thought Jack [2:34] further thoughts but I I thought Jack did a really nice job and and Roelof did [2:35] did a really nice job and and Roelof did [2:35] did a really nice job and and Roelof did too. Let's get into it. Jack I read your [2:38] too. Let's get into it. Jack I read your [2:38] too. Let's get into it. Jack I read your piece. I think it's fantastic from [2:40] piece. I think it's fantastic from [2:40] piece. I think it's fantastic from hierarchy to intelligence. [2:42] hierarchy to intelligence. [2:42] hierarchy to intelligence. Before we get into the meat of what it [2:44] Before we get into the meat of what it [2:45] Before we get into the meat of what it is can you describe what you think is [2:47] is can you describe what you think is [2:47] is can you describe what you think is wrong with the way normal companies [2:50] wrong with the way normal companies [2:50] wrong with the way normal companies hierarchies work companies like HubSpot [2:52] hierarchies work companies like HubSpot [2:52] hierarchies work companies like HubSpot companies like Block like what kind of [2:54] companies like Block like what kind of [2:54] companies like Block like what kind of led you to this? [2:56] led you to this? [2:56] led you to this? I don't know if um there's one thing [2:58] I don't know if um there's one thing [2:58] I don't know if um there's one thing that's ultimately wrong. Um it's just [3:02] that's ultimately wrong. Um it's just [3:02] that's ultimately wrong. Um it's just it's it's recognizing that [3:04] it's it's recognizing that [3:04] it's it's recognizing that like what what do we what do we see in [3:07] like what what do we what do we see in [3:07] like what what do we what do we see in the in the pattern? What what is the [3:08] the in the pattern? What what is the [3:08] the in the pattern? What what is the function of the hierarchy? [3:10] function of the hierarchy? [3:10] function of the hierarchy? And um what we wanted to explore is just [3:13] And um what we wanted to explore is just [3:13] And um what we wanted to explore is just like what where does it actually come [3:14] like what where does it actually come [3:14] like what where does it actually come from and and why did why does it exist [3:16] from and and why did why does it exist [3:16] from and and why did why does it exist in the first place? [3:17] in the first place? [3:17] in the first place? And if you look at it from first [3:19] And if you look at it from first [3:19] And if you look at it from first principles it's all about information [3:21] principles it's all about information [3:21] principles it's all about information flow [3:22] flow [3:22] flow to a broad base of people. Um so being [3:26] to a broad base of people. Um so being [3:26] to a broad base of people. Um so being able to communicate [3:27] able to communicate [3:27] able to communicate over a breath of of people and [3:31] over a breath of of people and [3:31] over a breath of of people and um have that be manageable at a human [3:33] um have that be manageable at a human [3:33] um have that be manageable at a human scale. [3:34] scale. [3:34] scale. So we've gotten into structures that you [3:37] So we've gotten into structures that you [3:37] So we've gotten into structures that you know we've borrowed and [3:39] know we've borrowed and [3:39] know we've borrowed and iterated on a little bit over 2,000 [3:42] iterated on a little bit over 2,000 [3:42] iterated on a little bit over 2,000 years. Yeah. Um and now we're we're [3:45] years. Yeah. Um and now we're we're [3:45] years. Yeah. Um and now we're we're facing this [3:47] facing this [3:47] facing this um [3:47] um [3:47] um I think a a completely foundational [3:50] I think a a completely foundational [3:50] I think a a completely foundational moment in being able to question every [3:52] moment in being able to question every [3:52] moment in being able to question every element of how we work. [3:54] element of how we work. [3:54] element of how we work. And the one that I think is questioned [3:57] And the one that I think is questioned [3:57] And the one that I think is questioned the least is probably the hierarchy. And [4:00] the least is probably the hierarchy. And [4:00] the least is probably the hierarchy. And probably about how we manage [4:02] probably about how we manage [4:02] probably about how we manage communication flow around the companies. [4:04] communication flow around the companies. [4:04] communication flow around the companies. So [4:05] So [4:05] So if if we're in a world where we are [4:07] if if we're in a world where we are [4:07] if if we're in a world where we are today where Block for instance is [4:10] today where Block for instance is [4:10] today where Block for instance is completely remote or we're remote first [4:13] completely remote or we're remote first [4:13] completely remote or we're remote first every single thing that we do creates [4:15] every single thing that we do creates [4:15] every single thing that we do creates some sort of artifacts whether it be a [4:17] some sort of artifacts whether it be a [4:17] some sort of artifacts whether it be a Slack message an email um pull request [4:20] Slack message an email um pull request [4:20] Slack message an email um pull request code um [4:22] code um [4:22] code um you know all these Google document a [4:25] you know all these Google document a [4:25] you know all these Google document a meeting that we record all these things [4:27] meeting that we record all these things [4:27] meeting that we record all these things have these artifacts of information [4:29] have these artifacts of information [4:29] have these artifacts of information about how the company [4:31] about how the company [4:31] about how the company is is working is building is failing is [4:34] is is working is building is failing is [4:34] is is working is building is failing is making mistakes all these things. [4:36] making mistakes all these things. [4:36] making mistakes all these things. And traditionally we've been relying [4:38] And traditionally we've been relying [4:39] And traditionally we've been relying upon humans in a management structure in [4:41] upon humans in a management structure in [4:41] upon humans in a management structure in a hierarchy [4:42] a hierarchy [4:42] a hierarchy to go up and down a chain to relay that [4:45] to go up and down a chain to relay that [4:45] to go up and down a chain to relay that information. [4:46] information. [4:46] information. Instead we can take all of those [4:48] Instead we can take all of those [4:48] Instead we can take all of those artifacts [4:49] artifacts [4:49] artifacts and put an intelligence on top of it. [4:52] and put an intelligence on top of it. [4:52] and put an intelligence on top of it. Build a model around it and actually [4:54] Build a model around it and actually [4:54] Build a model around it and actually have a conversation with the company [4:57] have a conversation with the company [4:57] have a conversation with the company about how the company is doing. And it's [4:59] about how the company is doing. And it's [4:59] about how the company is doing. And it's not just me as CEO [5:01] not just me as CEO [5:01] not just me as CEO that can do that but anyone in the [5:03] that can do that but anyone in the [5:03] that can do that but anyone in the company could have that same sort of [5:04] company could have that same sort of [5:04] company could have that same sort of access to information and and same [5:06] access to information and and same [5:06] access to information and and same understanding of like what the company [5:08] understanding of like what the company [5:08] understanding of like what the company can do. So you get to a point where you [5:11] can do. So you get to a point where you [5:11] can do. So you get to a point where you can build these world models for [5:13] can build these world models for [5:13] can build these world models for companies like treat the company as a as [5:16] companies like treat the company as a as [5:16] companies like treat the company as a as a mini AGI for instance an artificial [5:19] a mini AGI for instance an artificial [5:19] a mini AGI for instance an artificial general intelligence because it really [5:21] general intelligence because it really [5:21] general intelligence because it really is. I mean if you look at a company it [5:23] is. I mean if you look at a company it [5:23] is. I mean if you look at a company it is an intelligence but it hasn't been [5:25] is an intelligence but it hasn't been [5:25] is an intelligence but it hasn't been structured in the way that's the most [5:27] structured in the way that's the most [5:27] structured in the way that's the most efficient or um the least lossy in terms [5:32] efficient or um the least lossy in terms [5:32] efficient or um the least lossy in terms of uh information flow and and what [5:34] of uh information flow and and what [5:34] of uh information flow and and what people can actually do within the [5:35] people can actually do within the [5:35] people can actually do within the company. So [5:36] company. So [5:36] company. So um the technology is good enough today [5:40] um the technology is good enough today [5:40] um the technology is good enough today that we can actually model the company. [5:42] that we can actually model the company. [5:43] that we can actually model the company. We can have everyone in the company um [5:45] We can have everyone in the company um [5:45] We can have everyone in the company um put in intent which would be strategy or [5:48] put in intent which would be strategy or [5:48] put in intent which would be strategy or these artifacts and and we can also have [5:50] these artifacts and and we can also have [5:50] these artifacts and and we can also have everyone in the company [5:52] everyone in the company [5:52] everyone in the company query it as well and [5:54] query it as well and [5:54] query it as well and and it just it really opens the door for [5:56] and it just it really opens the door for [5:56] and it just it really opens the door for what's possible like you know Roelof and [5:58] what's possible like you know Roelof and [5:58] what's possible like you know Roelof and I have a board meeting every quarter [6:00] I have a board meeting every quarter [6:00] I have a board meeting every quarter where we we construct a bunch of board [6:02] where we we construct a bunch of board [6:02] where we we construct a bunch of board docs slides presentations um [6:07] docs slides presentations um [6:07] docs slides presentations um we get only so much time for them to [6:09] we get only so much time for them to [6:09] we get only so much time for them to have questions but imagine if every [6:11] have questions but imagine if every [6:11] have questions but imagine if every single board member can just query the [6:13] single board member can just query the [6:13] single board member can just query the company and have a conversation with the [6:14] company and have a conversation with the [6:14] company and have a conversation with the company's intelligence in real time and [6:17] company's intelligence in real time and [6:17] company's intelligence in real time and we can make that that meeting time that [6:19] we can make that that meeting time that [6:19] we can make that that meeting time that we that we have every quarter really [6:21] we that we have every quarter really [6:21] we that we have every quarter really focused on more of the creative or [6:24] focused on more of the creative or [6:24] focused on more of the creative or bigger existential decisions and issues [6:27] bigger existential decisions and issues [6:27] bigger existential decisions and issues than the day-to-day. The same can be [6:28] than the day-to-day. The same can be [6:28] than the day-to-day. The same can be said for like [6:30] said for like [6:30] said for like our earnings call and analysts like you [6:32] our earnings call and analysts like you [6:32] our earnings call and analysts like you giving them like fully reg FD possible [6:35] giving them like fully reg FD possible [6:35] giving them like fully reg FD possible information that is on their timeline [6:38] information that is on their timeline [6:38] information that is on their timeline with with their questioning. [6:39] with with their questioning. [6:39] with with their questioning. Um but you can scale this to any [6:41] Um but you can scale this to any [6:41] Um but you can scale this to any position or any role in the company [6:43] position or any role in the company [6:43] position or any role in the company which is pretty phenomenal and like [6:45] which is pretty phenomenal and like [6:45] which is pretty phenomenal and like we've just never had that ability before [6:47] we've just never had that ability before [6:47] we've just never had that ability before and [6:48] and [6:48] and and now we do and you know I think the [6:50] and now we do and you know I think the [6:50] and now we do and you know I think the the architecture and the structure of [6:52] the architecture and the structure of [6:52] the architecture and the structure of the company is ultimately going to [6:53] the company is ultimately going to [6:53] the company is ultimately going to determine its velocity and how well it's [6:57] determine its velocity and how well it's [6:57] determine its velocity and how well it's road map for customers correct. [7:00] road map for customers correct. [7:00] road map for customers correct. And do just kind of drilling down on it [7:02] And do just kind of drilling down on it [7:02] And do just kind of drilling down on it can you describe sort of [7:04] can you describe sort of [7:04] can you describe sort of what the organization looked like [7:06] what the organization looked like [7:06] what the organization looked like before? And granted you're very early in [7:08] before? And granted you're very early in [7:08] before? And granted you're very early in this but what's it look like now? Which [7:11] this but what's it look like now? Which [7:11] this but what's it look like now? Which roles have been eliminated? Um what are [7:14] roles have been eliminated? Um what are [7:14] roles have been eliminated? Um what are the new roles? Um just kind of drill [7:18] the new roles? Um just kind of drill [7:18] the new roles? Um just kind of drill down a little bit into what Block looks [7:20] down a little bit into what Block looks [7:20] down a little bit into what Block looks like today and kind of where it's going. [7:22] like today and kind of where it's going. [7:22] like today and kind of where it's going. Yeah we we we are early in it. Um I mean [7:25] Yeah we we we are early in it. Um I mean [7:25] Yeah we we we are early in it. Um I mean just from a you know one one measurement [7:28] just from a you know one one measurement [7:28] just from a you know one one measurement of of [7:30] of of [7:30] of of how far along we are would be the depth [7:32] how far along we are would be the depth [7:32] how far along we are would be the depth from me to any other individual in the [7:35] from me to any other individual in the [7:35] from me to any other individual in the company. And I would say our our max [7:37] company. And I would say our our max [7:37] company. And I would say our our max depth right now is probably five. Okay. [7:40] depth right now is probably five. Okay. [7:40] depth right now is probably five. Okay. Uh folks between me and and anyone in [7:42] Uh folks between me and and anyone in [7:42] Uh folks between me and and anyone in the company. Um I would want to get that [7:45] the company. Um I would want to get that [7:45] the company. Um I would want to get that down to two to three [7:48] down to two to three [7:48] down to two to three uh this year and in the most ideal case [7:52] uh this year and in the most ideal case [7:52] uh this year and in the most ideal case you know there there is no layer [7:54] you know there there is no layer [7:54] you know there there is no layer everyone in the company reports to me. [7:56] everyone in the company reports to me. [7:56] everyone in the company reports to me. And that would be you know all all 6,000 [7:59] And that would be you know all all 6,000 [7:59] And that would be you know all all 6,000 of of the company and [8:01] of of the company and [8:01] of of the company and that feels somewhat you know ridiculous [8:04] that feels somewhat you know ridiculous [8:04] that feels somewhat you know ridiculous when you consider like the old structure [8:05] when you consider like the old structure [8:05] when you consider like the old structure but when you consider [8:07] but when you consider [8:07] but when you consider that um the majority of our work is [8:10] that um the majority of our work is [8:10] that um the majority of our work is going through this intelligence layer um [8:14] going through this intelligence layer um [8:14] going through this intelligence layer um it's a lot more manageable and it that [8:16] it's a lot more manageable and it that [8:16] it's a lot more manageable and it that goes into the roles [8:18] goes into the roles [8:18] goes into the roles uh going forward. We we want to [8:20] uh going forward. We we want to [8:20] uh going forward. We we want to normalize down to just three roles. Mhm. [8:22] normalize down to just three roles. Mhm. [8:22] normalize down to just three roles. Mhm. The first is an IC which is a a builder [8:25] The first is an IC which is a a builder [8:25] The first is an IC which is a a builder or an operator. This is a sales person [8:27] or an operator. This is a sales person [8:27] or an operator. This is a sales person this is an engineer it's a designer. Um [8:30] this is an engineer it's a designer. Um [8:30] this is an engineer it's a designer. Um a product person like you know whatever [8:32] a product person like you know whatever [8:32] a product person like you know whatever it is they're actually working [8:34] it is they're actually working [8:34] it is they're actually working with the tools to build or to operate [8:37] with the tools to build or to operate [8:37] with the tools to build or to operate the company. Mhm. Um they're augmented [8:40] the company. Mhm. Um they're augmented [8:40] the company. Mhm. Um they're augmented because they have access to agents. So [8:43] because they have access to agents. So [8:43] because they have access to agents. So you know one person can you know [8:44] you know one person can you know [8:44] you know one person can you know potentially do the work or explore the [8:47] potentially do the work or explore the [8:47] potentially do the work or explore the breath that you know it would take a [8:49] breath that you know it would take a [8:49] breath that you know it would take a team or you know 10 people to do in the [8:51] team or you know 10 people to do in the [8:51] team or you know 10 people to do in the past. [8:52] past. [8:52] past. So that's number one and then I think [8:54] So that's number one and then I think [8:54] So that's number one and then I think there's a durable human skill that lasts [8:56] there's a durable human skill that lasts [8:56] there's a durable human skill that lasts there which is judgment and taste and [9:00] there which is judgment and taste and [9:00] there which is judgment and taste and creativity. Mhm. Um so that's probably [9:02] creativity. Mhm. Um so that's probably [9:02] creativity. Mhm. Um so that's probably the largest part of the population is [9:04] the largest part of the population is [9:04] the largest part of the population is the builder and the operators ICs. The [9:06] the builder and the operators ICs. The [9:06] the builder and the operators ICs. The second role is the DRI. [9:08] second role is the DRI. [9:08] second role is the DRI. And that's someone who can own the [9:09] And that's someone who can own the [9:09] And that's someone who can own the customer outcomes. Mhm. They're putting [9:12] customer outcomes. Mhm. They're putting [9:12] customer outcomes. Mhm. They're putting uh strategy together. They're [9:13] uh strategy together. They're [9:13] uh strategy together. They're understanding what road map [9:15] understanding what road map [9:15] understanding what road map um uh allows us to solve customer [9:19] um uh allows us to solve customer [9:19] um uh allows us to solve customer customer needs and and problems. [9:22] customer needs and and problems. [9:22] customer needs and and problems. And they're assembling a team of these [9:25] And they're assembling a team of these [9:25] And they're assembling a team of these ICs [9:26] ICs [9:26] ICs uh to get something done. Um but the the [9:29] uh to get something done. Um but the the [9:29] uh to get something done. Um but the the durable human [9:31] durable human [9:31] durable human human skill there is ownership and [9:33] human skill there is ownership and [9:33] human skill there is ownership and accountability. Um you know they're [9:35] accountability. Um you know they're [9:35] accountability. Um you know they're really owning the the outcomes and [9:36] really owning the the outcomes and [9:36] really owning the the outcomes and whether something is failing or not. [9:38] whether something is failing or not. [9:38] whether something is failing or not. And then the last role would be what we [9:40] And then the last role would be what we [9:40] And then the last role would be what we consider managers today [9:43] consider managers today [9:43] consider managers today which we're calling a player coach. This [9:45] which we're calling a player coach. This [9:45] which we're calling a player coach. This is someone who is building the [9:47] is someone who is building the [9:47] is someone who is building the capability and the capacity of other [9:49] capability and the capacity of other [9:49] capability and the capacity of other humans and their craft [9:52] humans and their craft [9:52] humans and their craft but instead of telling them how to do it [9:54] but instead of telling them how to do it [9:54] but instead of telling them how to do it they're showing them how to do it by [9:55] they're showing them how to do it by [9:55] they're showing them how to do it by doing the work. So, these are these are [9:57] doing the work. So, these are these are [9:57] doing the work. So, these are these are people who might be ICs or they might be [10:00] people who might be ICs or they might be [10:00] people who might be ICs or they might be DRIs, [10:02] DRIs, [10:02] DRIs, but they're also really good at giving [10:04] but they're also really good at giving [10:04] but they're also really good at giving um coaching skills at at a coaching [10:07] um coaching skills at at a coaching [10:07] um coaching skills at at a coaching skill to help the the people around them [10:10] skill to help the the people around them [10:10] skill to help the the people around them get better and better and master their [10:11] get better and better and master their [10:11] get better and better and master their craft. [10:12] craft. [10:12] craft. And today, that's a management structure [10:15] And today, that's a management structure [10:15] And today, that's a management structure where where these where ICs and even [10:18] where where these where ICs and even [10:18] where where these where ICs and even DRIs report [10:20] DRIs report [10:20] DRIs report to a player coach. Mhm. But I think in [10:22] to a player coach. Mhm. But I think in [10:22] to a player coach. Mhm. But I think in the future, it's an assignment. It's not [10:25] the future, it's an assignment. It's not [10:25] the future, it's an assignment. It's not a um reporting structure, but I'm [10:27] a um reporting structure, but I'm [10:27] a um reporting structure, but I'm assigned to ICs or I'm assigned to DRIs [10:30] assigned to ICs or I'm assigned to DRIs [10:30] assigned to ICs or I'm assigned to DRIs to help them master their craft. And [10:32] to help them master their craft. And [10:32] to help them master their craft. And obviously, the durable human [10:34] obviously, the durable human [10:34] obviously, the durable human uh skill there is building human [10:36] uh skill there is building human [10:36] uh skill there is building human capacity and and coaching. Um and [10:38] capacity and and coaching. Um and [10:38] capacity and and coaching. Um and there's a lot of empathy there and you [10:40] there's a lot of empathy there and you [10:40] there's a lot of empathy there and you know, all the all the soft skills that [10:41] know, all the all the soft skills that [10:41] know, all the all the soft skills that we recognized um great managers are are [10:44] we recognized um great managers are are [10:44] we recognized um great managers are are known for. [10:45] known for. [10:45] known for. Um [10:46] Um [10:46] Um but but not [10:48] but but not [10:48] but but not making it a requirement that they have [10:50] making it a requirement that they have [10:50] making it a requirement that they have to [10:51] to [10:51] to be strategic necessarily. They have to [10:53] be strategic necessarily. They have to [10:53] be strategic necessarily. They have to build um because they need to show off [10:56] build um because they need to show off [10:56] build um because they need to show off the skill and and and teach in that way, [10:58] the skill and and and teach in that way, [10:58] the skill and and and teach in that way, but they don't necessarily need to be a [11:00] but they don't necessarily need to be a [11:00] but they don't necessarily need to be a DRI. Now, I I in very rare cases, [11:04] DRI. Now, I I in very rare cases, [11:04] DRI. Now, I I in very rare cases, one person can take on all three of [11:06] one person can take on all three of [11:06] one person can take on all three of those roles. I think I can take on all [11:08] those roles. I think I can take on all [11:08] those roles. I think I can take on all all three of those roles. My leadership [11:09] all three of those roles. My leadership [11:09] all three of those roles. My leadership team is expected to take on all three of [11:12] team is expected to take on all three of [11:12] team is expected to take on all three of those roles. They expected to build as [11:14] those roles. They expected to build as [11:14] those roles. They expected to build as an IC or operate the company. [11:16] an IC or operate the company. [11:16] an IC or operate the company. They're expected to be strategic and [11:17] They're expected to be strategic and [11:17] They're expected to be strategic and actually think about road maps and [11:19] actually think about road maps and [11:19] actually think about road maps and customer outcomes. And they're expected [11:21] customer outcomes. And they're expected [11:21] customer outcomes. And they're expected to coach and um help raise the skill [11:24] to coach and um help raise the skill [11:24] to coach and um help raise the skill level um around them uh with with the [11:27] level um around them uh with with the [11:27] level um around them uh with with the people that they work with their with [11:28] people that they work with their with [11:28] people that they work with their with their direct team. [11:29] their direct team. [11:29] their direct team. Just a little kind of before and after [11:31] Just a little kind of before and after [11:31] Just a little kind of before and after and your your mid on this and let's [11:33] and your your mid on this and let's [11:33] and your your mid on this and let's pretend like it's working great and it's [11:35] pretend like it's working great and it's [11:35] pretend like it's working great and it's 2 years from now. [11:36] 2 years from now. [11:36] 2 years from now. And it's extremely flat. [11:38] And it's extremely flat. [11:38] And it's extremely flat. Like what is what is the role of the CEO [11:40] Like what is what is the role of the CEO [11:40] Like what is what is the role of the CEO before and after? How's that Most of the [11:41] before and after? How's that Most of the [11:41] before and after? How's that Most of the listeners, by the way, are CEOs. [11:43] listeners, by the way, are CEOs. [11:44] listeners, by the way, are CEOs. Um what does like planning look like [11:47] Um what does like planning look like [11:47] Um what does like planning look like before and after? [11:48] before and after? [11:48] before and after? Um [11:50] Um [11:50] Um what happens to all those people who are [11:51] what happens to all those people who are [11:51] what happens to all those people who are directors and managers or the kind of [11:53] directors and managers or the kind of [11:53] directors and managers or the kind of glue people? What are some kind of the [11:55] glue people? What are some kind of the [11:55] glue people? What are some kind of the before and afters in your role? [11:57] before and afters in your role? [11:57] before and afters in your role? I think um [11:59] I think um [11:59] I think um my my my job as CEO in the past I [12:02] my my my job as CEO in the past I [12:02] my my my job as CEO in the past I thought about in three ways. Number one [12:05] thought about in three ways. Number one [12:05] thought about in three ways. Number one is to ensure that we have [snorts] the [12:07] is to ensure that we have [snorts] the [12:08] is to ensure that we have [snorts] the right principles and the right [12:10] right principles and the right [12:10] right principles and the right team dynamic. Mhm. [12:11] team dynamic. Mhm. [12:11] team dynamic. Mhm. >> And that's like hiring and firing and [12:13] >> And that's like hiring and firing and [12:13] >> And that's like hiring and firing and setting [12:14] setting [12:14] setting values and setting the culture and [12:16] values and setting the culture and [12:16] values and setting the culture and setting the tone. Mhm. The second is to [12:18] setting the tone. Mhm. The second is to [12:19] setting the tone. Mhm. The second is to ensure that decisions are being made in [12:20] ensure that decisions are being made in [12:20] ensure that decisions are being made in in context of our customers and industry [12:23] in context of our customers and industry [12:23] in context of our customers and industry trends and competition. [12:25] trends and competition. [12:25] trends and competition. And the third would be to raise the bar [12:27] And the third would be to raise the bar [12:27] And the third would be to raise the bar on our execution. Like to constantly [12:30] on our execution. Like to constantly [12:30] on our execution. Like to constantly increase our capability and and to push [12:32] increase our capability and and to push [12:32] increase our capability and and to push ourselves in [12:34] ourselves in [12:34] ourselves in to doing things that are uncomfortable [12:35] to doing things that are uncomfortable [12:35] to doing things that are uncomfortable so that we're growing all the time. So, [12:37] so that we're growing all the time. So, [12:37] so that we're growing all the time. So, that's how I thought about my job [12:40] that's how I thought about my job [12:40] that's how I thought about my job up until this point. [12:41] up until this point. [12:41] up until this point. I think in the in the future, [12:43] I think in the in the future, [12:43] I think in the in the future, you you have those elements [12:46] you you have those elements [12:46] you you have those elements certainly, but I think it's more about [12:48] certainly, but I think it's more about [12:48] certainly, but I think it's more about like the architecture of how the [12:50] like the architecture of how the [12:50] like the architecture of how the the company as an intelligence works. [12:53] the company as an intelligence works. [12:53] the company as an intelligence works. And like if we're building a company as [12:55] And like if we're building a company as [12:55] And like if we're building a company as an intelligence, [12:57] an intelligence, [12:57] an intelligence, our job is as humans and and my job as [12:59] our job is as humans and and my job as [12:59] our job is as humans and and my job as CEO is to constantly align it to where [13:02] CEO is to constantly align it to where [13:02] CEO is to constantly align it to where we think the right outcome is. Mhm. And [13:05] we think the right outcome is. Mhm. And [13:05] we think the right outcome is. Mhm. And I I see like, you know, visually I see [13:07] I I see like, you know, visually I see [13:07] I I see like, you know, visually I see the the comp the intelligence, the world [13:09] the the comp the intelligence, the world [13:09] the the comp the intelligence, the world model for the company in the center. [13:12] model for the company in the center. [13:12] model for the company in the center. And then on the edge are the humans who [13:13] And then on the edge are the humans who [13:13] And then on the edge are the humans who are just constantly aligning this [13:15] are just constantly aligning this [13:15] are just constantly aligning this towards customer outcomes. Mhm. But even [13:18] towards customer outcomes. Mhm. But even [13:18] towards customer outcomes. Mhm. But even even that changes, I believe, [13:21] even that changes, I believe, [13:21] even that changes, I believe, because I think a company's ultimate [13:24] because I think a company's ultimate [13:24] because I think a company's ultimate limiting factor [13:26] limiting factor [13:26] limiting factor is its own road map. [13:27] is its own road map. [13:27] is its own road map. And I think what what these technologies [13:30] And I think what what these technologies [13:30] And I think what what these technologies point to [13:31] point to [13:31] point to are that our customers are going to [13:34] are that our customers are going to [13:34] are that our customers are going to they're going to have the expectation [13:35] they're going to have the expectation [13:35] they're going to have the expectation that they [13:37] that they [13:37] that they can ask for a future that doesn't exist [13:39] can ask for a future that doesn't exist [13:39] can ask for a future that doesn't exist on a road map and that it just is served [13:41] on a road map and that it just is served [13:41] on a road map and that it just is served to them. Mhm. And that's where like you [13:44] to them. Mhm. And that's where like you [13:44] to them. Mhm. And that's where like you really get into the the layers of like, [13:46] really get into the the layers of like, [13:46] really get into the the layers of like, okay, so what do we actually build? We [13:48] okay, so what do we actually build? We [13:48] okay, so what do we actually build? We build up capabilities, which are [13:50] build up capabilities, which are [13:50] build up capabilities, which are effectively our tools. Like we can issue [13:52] effectively our tools. Like we can issue [13:52] effectively our tools. Like we can issue cards, we card acceptance, peer-to-peer [13:54] cards, we card acceptance, peer-to-peer [13:54] cards, we card acceptance, peer-to-peer lending, all these things we do as a [13:55] lending, all these things we do as a [13:56] lending, all these things we do as a financial technology company. Mhm. We [13:58] financial technology company. Mhm. We [13:58] financial technology company. Mhm. We have these interfaces like Square, which [14:00] have these interfaces like Square, which [14:00] have these interfaces like Square, which has a register and a dashboard. We have [14:03] has a register and a dashboard. We have [14:03] has a register and a dashboard. We have Cash App, we have Title, we have Bitkey, [14:05] Cash App, we have Title, we have Bitkey, [14:05] Cash App, we have Title, we have Bitkey, we have Proto. These are interfaces. [14:07] we have Proto. These are interfaces. [14:07] we have Proto. These are interfaces. These actually touch the real world, [14:09] These actually touch the real world, [14:09] These actually touch the real world, touch humans, and we can deliver our [14:11] touch humans, and we can deliver our [14:11] touch humans, and we can deliver our capabilities in these interfaces. Today, [14:14] capabilities in these interfaces. Today, [14:14] capabilities in these interfaces. Today, they're built with like these very [14:15] they're built with like these very [14:15] they're built with like these very specific navigations that are our road [14:17] specific navigations that are our road [14:17] specific navigations that are our road map and our understanding of what our [14:19] map and our understanding of what our [14:19] map and our understanding of what our customers want. [14:21] customers want. [14:21] customers want. When you move to the third layer, you [14:22] When you move to the third layer, you [14:22] When you move to the third layer, you have proactive intelligence. We have all [14:24] have proactive intelligence. We have all [14:24] have proactive intelligence. We have all this understanding [14:25] this understanding [14:25] this understanding of our customers. We have We're moving [14:27] of our customers. We have We're moving [14:27] of our customers. We have We're moving money. Money is the most honest signal [14:30] money. Money is the most honest signal [14:30] money. Money is the most honest signal in the world. Um you can lie about [14:32] in the world. Um you can lie about [14:32] in the world. Um you can lie about literally everything, but when a [14:33] literally everything, but when a [14:33] literally everything, but when a transaction occurs, like that's that's [14:35] transaction occurs, like that's that's [14:35] transaction occurs, like that's that's something that like really tells the [14:37] something that like really tells the [14:37] something that like really tells the truth about your life or your business's [14:38] truth about your life or your business's [14:38] truth about your life or your business's life. [14:39] life. [14:39] life. And um based on that, we can actually [14:43] And um based on that, we can actually [14:43] And um based on that, we can actually prompt our customers instead of waiting [14:45] prompt our customers instead of waiting [14:45] prompt our customers instead of waiting for them to prompt us or having the [14:46] for them to prompt us or having the [14:46] for them to prompt us or having the right question to ask. So, [14:48] right question to ask. So, [14:48] right question to ask. So, we can do the very simple but very [14:50] we can do the very simple but very [14:51] we can do the very simple but very valuable thing of like, how do we [14:52] valuable thing of like, how do we [14:52] valuable thing of like, how do we protect [14:53] protect [14:53] protect our customers' cash flow? [14:55] our customers' cash flow? [14:55] our customers' cash flow? Like we have people using us as a bank [14:57] Like we have people using us as a bank [14:57] Like we have people using us as a bank account. [14:58] account. [14:58] account. How do we make sure that they can pay [14:59] How do we make sure that they can pay [14:59] How do we make sure that they can pay the rent and they can pay their Spotify [15:01] the rent and they can pay their Spotify [15:01] the rent and they can pay their Spotify bill and they can pay um their kids' [15:04] bill and they can pay um their kids' [15:04] bill and they can pay um their kids' allowance and [15:05] allowance and [15:05] allowance and and and this is all sequenced in a way [15:08] and and this is all sequenced in a way [15:08] and and this is all sequenced in a way that allows them to never go to zero, [15:11] that allows them to never go to zero, [15:11] that allows them to never go to zero, never go negative, and have some cushion [15:14] never go negative, and have some cushion [15:14] never go negative, and have some cushion that allows them to even think about um [15:16] that allows them to even think about um [15:16] that allows them to even think about um getting to saving or building wealth. [15:19] getting to saving or building wealth. [15:19] getting to saving or building wealth. And and that's just, you know, peace of [15:21] And and that's just, you know, peace of [15:21] And and that's just, you know, peace of mind, I think is the most critical [15:23] mind, I think is the most critical [15:23] mind, I think is the most critical aspect here. [15:24] aspect here. [15:24] aspect here. Um [15:25] Um [15:25] Um so [15:27] so [15:27] so if if we're enabling a customer, if [15:29] if if we're enabling a customer, if [15:29] if if we're enabling a customer, if we're able to prompt a customer and also [15:31] we're able to prompt a customer and also [15:31] we're able to prompt a customer and also they can ask like as a business, hey, I [15:33] they can ask like as a business, hey, I [15:33] they can ask like as a business, hey, I have this inventory thing that I've been [15:35] have this inventory thing that I've been [15:35] have this inventory thing that I've been using, but [15:36] using, but [15:36] using, but it's missing this feature. Can I Can I [15:38] it's missing this feature. Can I Can I [15:38] it's missing this feature. Can I Can I have this feature? We should just be [15:40] have this feature? We should just be [15:40] have this feature? We should just be able to build that and compose it in [15:42] able to build that and compose it in [15:42] able to build that and compose it in real time based on our capabilities. [15:44] real time based on our capabilities. [15:44] real time based on our capabilities. If we can't, [15:46] If we can't, [15:46] If we can't, and it points to a deficiency in [15:48] and it points to a deficiency in [15:48] and it points to a deficiency in capabilities or a gap, that's our road [15:50] capabilities or a gap, that's our road [15:50] capabilities or a gap, that's our road map. Yeah. [15:51] map. Yeah. [15:51] map. Yeah. >> So, our our customers just by using and [15:53] >> So, our our customers just by using and [15:53] >> So, our our customers just by using and talking with our systems are telling us [15:55] talking with our systems are telling us [15:55] talking with our systems are telling us what our road map should be and then [15:57] what our road map should be and then [15:57] what our road map should be and then it's up to us to give the judgment. Mhm. [15:59] it's up to us to give the judgment. Mhm. [15:59] it's up to us to give the judgment. Mhm. And then the final layer is is the world [16:00] And then the final layer is is the world [16:00] And then the final layer is is the world model. It's the customer world model. [16:02] model. It's the customer world model. [16:02] model. It's the customer world model. It's the company world model. Our our [16:03] It's the company world model. Our our [16:03] It's the company world model. Our our deep understanding of our of um [16:05] deep understanding of our of um [16:05] deep understanding of our of um ourselves [16:07] ourselves [16:07] ourselves and and also our customers. But I I [16:09] and and also our customers. But I I [16:09] and and also our customers. But I I think like [16:10] think like [16:10] think like if I had to if I had to say one one [16:13] if I had to if I had to say one one [16:13] if I had to if I had to say one one thing that, you know, myself or anyone [16:15] thing that, you know, myself or anyone [16:15] thing that, you know, myself or anyone in the company has to do, [16:17] in the company has to do, [16:17] in the company has to do, it's I guess it's this overused phrase [16:19] it's I guess it's this overused phrase [16:19] it's I guess it's this overused phrase of of judgment. Um but it is judgment [16:21] of of judgment. Um but it is judgment [16:21] of of judgment. Um but it is judgment against like what we intend to build in [16:23] against like what we intend to build in [16:23] against like what we intend to build in the world. Mhm. And is it on Is it [16:25] the world. Mhm. And is it on Is it [16:25] the world. Mhm. And is it on Is it aligned with that judgment? Is it [16:27] aligned with that judgment? Is it [16:27] aligned with that judgment? Is it aligned with the values? Is it aligned [16:28] aligned with the values? Is it aligned [16:28] aligned with the values? Is it aligned with the taste [16:30] with the taste [16:30] with the taste that we have and is it unique or is it [16:31] that we have and is it unique or is it [16:32] that we have and is it unique or is it not? Mhm. And [16:34] not? Mhm. And [16:34] not? Mhm. And I I guess in for my part I'm the um [16:36] I I guess in for my part I'm the um [16:37] I I guess in for my part I'm the um extra checkpoint on like, is the [16:38] extra checkpoint on like, is the [16:38] extra checkpoint on like, is the alignment [16:40] alignment [16:40] alignment circle of humans, the edge of humans [16:41] circle of humans, the edge of humans [16:41] circle of humans, the edge of humans actually working correctly? [16:43] actually working correctly? [16:43] actually working correctly? In this I see how this works [16:44] In this I see how this works [16:44] In this I see how this works exceptionally well for Block. You have a [16:47] exceptionally well for Block. You have a [16:47] exceptionally well for Block. You have a lot of signal. [16:49] lot of signal. [16:49] lot of signal. How does this work for [16:51] How does this work for [16:51] How does this work for I don't know, Sierra, Workday, somebody [16:53] I don't know, Sierra, Workday, somebody [16:53] I don't know, Sierra, Workday, somebody who doesn't have the quality signal, the [16:56] who doesn't have the quality signal, the [16:56] who doesn't have the quality signal, the frequency of signals. Does it apply or [16:58] frequency of signals. Does it apply or [16:58] frequency of signals. Does it apply or it doesn't work as well? I think it [17:00] it doesn't work as well? I think it [17:00] it doesn't work as well? I think it probably does. It I think it it goes [17:02] probably does. It I think it it goes [17:02] probably does. It I think it it goes down to like, are you building a Are you [17:03] down to like, are you building a Are you [17:03] down to like, are you building a Are you building a business that like [17:05] building a business that like [17:05] building a business that like understands something [17:07] understands something [17:07] understands something of human nature deeply and it gets [17:10] of human nature deeply and it gets [17:10] of human nature deeply and it gets deeper every single time. [17:12] deeper every single time. [17:12] deeper every single time. And and that's a real tangible signal [17:13] And and that's a real tangible signal [17:13] And and that's a real tangible signal that just doesn't go away or and if you [17:16] that just doesn't go away or and if you [17:16] that just doesn't go away or and if you are, then I think you can build your [17:17] are, then I think you can build your [17:17] are, then I think you can build your company as an intelligence. If you're [17:19] company as an intelligence. If you're [17:19] company as an intelligence. If you're not, then it's probably a [17:22] not, then it's probably a [17:22] not, then it's probably a an add-on to something else. Um [17:25] an add-on to something else. Um [17:25] an add-on to something else. Um And I I think most of the industry is [17:28] And I I think most of the industry is [17:28] And I I think most of the industry is thinking about AI as like a co-pilot, as [17:30] thinking about AI as like a co-pilot, as [17:30] thinking about AI as like a co-pilot, as something that is augmented onto rather [17:34] something that is augmented onto rather [17:34] something that is augmented onto rather than like, how do you just rebuild this [17:36] than like, how do you just rebuild this [17:36] than like, how do you just rebuild this our whole company with this as the core? [17:38] our whole company with this as the core? [17:38] our whole company with this as the core? Like [17:39] Like [17:39] Like and if it doesn't make sense for your [17:40] and if it doesn't make sense for your [17:40] and if it doesn't make sense for your business to do that and you end up being [17:43] business to do that and you end up being [17:43] business to do that and you end up being or looking very similar or rhyming too [17:45] or looking very similar or rhyming too [17:45] or looking very similar or rhyming too closely with um [17:47] closely with um [17:47] closely with um the frontier labs, [17:49] the frontier labs, [17:49] the frontier labs, then I I think it's going to be a [17:51] then I I think it's going to be a [17:51] then I I think it's going to be a very very challenging to differentiate [17:53] very very challenging to differentiate [17:53] very very challenging to differentiate and [17:54] and [17:54] and and um [17:56] and um [17:56] and um and and survive. And and that's kind of [17:58] and and survive. And and that's kind of [17:58] and and survive. And and that's kind of what's been leading me to all this is [18:00] what's been leading me to all this is [18:00] what's been leading me to all this is like I I just, you know, since uh [18:02] like I I just, you know, since uh [18:02] like I I just, you know, since uh January of 2024, which is when these [18:04] January of 2024, which is when these [18:04] January of 2024, which is when these tools really [18:06] tools really [18:06] tools really uh came to bear. Like we [18:08] uh came to bear. Like we [18:08] uh came to bear. Like we Goose, um which is a agent coding [18:11] Goose, um which is a agent coding [18:11] Goose, um which is a agent coding harness, [18:12] harness, [18:12] harness, was 1 month before Claude Code in [18:14] was 1 month before Claude Code in [18:14] was 1 month before Claude Code in January of 2024. Mhm. And Claude Code [18:16] January of 2024. Mhm. And Claude Code [18:17] January of 2024. Mhm. And Claude Code came out um the following month and then [18:19] came out um the following month and then [18:19] came out um the following month and then like was really put into out of beta in [18:21] like was really put into out of beta in [18:21] like was really put into out of beta in May of that year. Mhm. And [18:24] May of that year. Mhm. And [18:24] May of that year. Mhm. And you know, that whole year I just spent [18:26] you know, that whole year I just spent [18:26] you know, that whole year I just spent every single day for 3 hours every [18:27] every single day for 3 hours every [18:27] every single day for 3 hours every morning [18:28] morning [18:29] morning just pushing myself like, can I get it [18:31] just pushing myself like, can I get it [18:31] just pushing myself like, can I get it to do something that I didn't think it [18:33] to do something that I didn't think it [18:33] to do something that I didn't think it was capable of or I didn't think I was [18:35] was capable of or I didn't think I was [18:35] was capable of or I didn't think I was capable of. Mhm. And every single day it [18:37] capable of. Mhm. And every single day it [18:37] capable of. Mhm. And every single day it it worked. Like every single day I was [18:40] it worked. Like every single day I was [18:40] it worked. Like every single day I was surprised. [18:41] surprised. [18:41] surprised. And it's it's, you know, it's it I'm [18:43] And it's it's, you know, it's it I'm [18:43] And it's it's, you know, it's it I'm sorry, it wasn't 2024, it's 2025. It's [18:46] sorry, it wasn't 2024, it's 2025. It's [18:46] sorry, it wasn't 2024, it's 2025. It's only been a year of those tools. [18:48] only been a year of those tools. [18:48] only been a year of those tools. Like 1 year. It just the the compounding [18:50] Like 1 year. It just the the compounding [18:51] Like 1 year. It just the the compounding nature of this [18:52] nature of this [18:52] nature of this um [18:53] um [18:53] um is pretty incredible. So, [18:55] is pretty incredible. So, [18:55] is pretty incredible. So, you know, being able to like uh [18:57] you know, being able to like uh [18:57] you know, being able to like uh see that, understand it, and then [19:01] see that, understand it, and then [19:01] see that, understand it, and then shift your company to be ahead of it, I [19:05] shift your company to be ahead of it, I [19:05] shift your company to be ahead of it, I think is absolutely critical right now. [19:07] think is absolutely critical right now. [19:07] think is absolutely critical right now. And I don't think people are feeling it [19:08] And I don't think people are feeling it [19:08] And I don't think people are feeling it enough. Mhm. It it they're just living [19:10] enough. Mhm. It it they're just living [19:10] enough. Mhm. It it they're just living in this abstraction of like, oh yeah, [19:12] in this abstraction of like, oh yeah, [19:12] in this abstraction of like, oh yeah, like [19:14] like [19:14] like uh these tools will make everyone in our [19:16] uh these tools will make everyone in our [19:16] uh these tools will make everyone in our company 10x more productive. I I don't [19:18] company 10x more productive. I I don't [19:18] company 10x more productive. I I don't think this is a productivity thing. I [19:20] think this is a productivity thing. I [19:20] think this is a productivity thing. I think it's a structural thing that needs [19:22] think it's a structural thing that needs [19:22] think it's a structural thing that needs to shift. I think you're right. I think [19:23] to shift. I think you're right. I think [19:23] to shift. I think you're right. I think people are thinking of it as co-pilots [19:25] people are thinking of it as co-pilots [19:25] people are thinking of it as co-pilots and individual productivity versus your [19:28] and individual productivity versus your [19:28] and individual productivity versus your I think your idea is complete business [19:29] I think your idea is complete business [19:29] I think your idea is complete business transformation and I think it's super [19:33] transformation and I think it's super [19:33] transformation and I think it's super interesting and compelling. Can I add [19:35] interesting and compelling. Can I add [19:35] interesting and compelling. Can I add one Yes. [19:36] one Yes. [19:36] one Yes. Thought I've had as I've listened to [19:37] Thought I've had as I've listened to [19:37] Thought I've had as I've listened to this so far. [19:39] this so far. [19:39] this so far. You know, one of the one of my favorite [19:40] You know, one of the one of my favorite [19:40] You know, one of the one of my favorite pieces uh of writing ever is Adam Smith, [19:44] pieces uh of writing ever is Adam Smith, [19:44] pieces uh of writing ever is Adam Smith, Wealth of Nations. [19:45] Wealth of Nations. [19:45] Wealth of Nations. And this idea that if you have the right [19:47] And this idea that if you have the right [19:47] And this idea that if you have the right signals, you can rely on the [19:48] signals, you can rely on the [19:48] signals, you can rely on the self-interested behavior of many small [19:50] self-interested behavior of many small [19:50] self-interested behavior of many small participants in the system to actually [19:52] participants in the system to actually [19:52] participants in the system to actually lead to optimal outcomes. But you just [19:54] lead to optimal outcomes. But you just [19:54] lead to optimal outcomes. But you just need to have the right framework and the [19:55] need to have the right framework and the [19:56] need to have the right framework and the right system. I think the way that many [19:57] right system. I think the way that many [19:57] right system. I think the way that many companies work today [19:59] companies work today [19:59] companies work today is a little bit more command and [20:00] is a little bit more command and [20:00] is a little bit more command and control. [20:02] control. [20:02] control. Very much. [20:03] Very much. [20:03] Very much. >> And you have hierarchies and you have [20:04] >> And you have hierarchies and you have [20:04] >> And you have hierarchies and you have political actions and people, you know, [20:07] political actions and people, you know, [20:07] political actions and people, you know, jockeying for position and it's it's not [20:09] jockeying for position and it's it's not [20:09] jockeying for position and it's it's not always clear what is actually true. [20:12] always clear what is actually true. [20:12] always clear what is actually true. And I think part of what we're [20:13] And I think part of what we're [20:13] And I think part of what we're envisioning here is you have a system [20:15] envisioning here is you have a system [20:15] envisioning here is you have a system that's just ground truth. [20:16] that's just ground truth. [20:17] that's just ground truth. And you do away with all the layers, you [20:18] And you do away with all the layers, you [20:18] And you do away with all the layers, you get back to the kind of productivity [20:19] get back to the kind of productivity [20:19] get back to the kind of productivity that [20:21] that [20:21] that founders often long for. They long for [20:23] founders often long for. They long for [20:23] founders often long for. They long for the days when they were 100 people and [20:24] the days when they were 100 people and [20:24] the days when they were 100 people and not 500 people cuz they were so much [20:26] not 500 people cuz they were so much [20:26] not 500 people cuz they were so much more productive. Why? Because you had, [20:29] more productive. Why? Because you had, [20:29] more productive. Why? Because you had, you know, lots of transparency, limited [20:31] you know, lots of transparency, limited [20:31] you know, lots of transparency, limited hierarchy. [20:32] hierarchy. [20:33] hierarchy. And so I think the possibility here is [20:34] And so I think the possibility here is [20:34] And so I think the possibility here is Jack was saying is instead of just [20:36] Jack was saying is instead of just [20:36] Jack was saying is instead of just focusing on individual productivity, you [20:38] focusing on individual productivity, you [20:38] focusing on individual productivity, you reimagine how we work together as [20:40] reimagine how we work together as [20:40] reimagine how we work together as humans. [20:41] humans. [20:41] humans. And you can do it with far smaller [20:43] And you can do it with far smaller [20:43] And you can do it with far smaller number of people that are far more [20:44] number of people that are far more [20:44] number of people that are far more productive, yes, but there's a different [20:46] productive, yes, but there's a different [20:46] productive, yes, but there's a different way of working together where you get [20:47] way of working together where you get [20:47] way of working together where you get the right signals. And it's a it's much [20:50] the right signals. And it's a it's much [20:50] the right signals. And it's a it's much much more similar to a capitalist system [20:52] much more similar to a capitalist system [20:52] much more similar to a capitalist system where the signals tell you what to [20:54] where the signals tell you what to [20:54] where the signals tell you what to build. It's not somebody who pounds the [20:56] build. It's not somebody who pounds the [20:56] build. It's not somebody who pounds the table harder who gets their product [20:58] table harder who gets their product [20:58] table harder who gets their product approved. It's just listen, more [20:59] approved. It's just listen, more [20:59] approved. It's just listen, more customers want this than that. That's [21:01] customers want this than that. That's [21:01] customers want this than that. That's how that's how we're going to decide [21:02] how that's how we're going to decide [21:02] how that's how we're going to decide what to build next. So for me, there's [21:04] what to build next. So for me, there's [21:04] what to build next. So for me, there's something quite magical in that [21:06] something quite magical in that [21:06] something quite magical in that realization. Yeah. About 4 years into [21:09] realization. Yeah. About 4 years into [21:09] realization. Yeah. About 4 years into building HubSpot, I eliminated no org [21:12] building HubSpot, I eliminated no org [21:12] building HubSpot, I eliminated no org charts, no titles, [21:15] charts, no titles, [21:15] charts, no titles, and everyone lost their mind. They [21:17] and everyone lost their mind. They [21:17] and everyone lost their mind. They didn't like the idea. [21:18] didn't like the idea. [21:18] didn't like the idea. And we ran that for about 9 months and I [21:20] And we ran that for about 9 months and I [21:21] And we ran that for about 9 months and I got worn down and I brought it back. The [21:23] got worn down and I brought it back. The [21:23] got worn down and I brought it back. The thing we didn't have was an intelligence [21:25] thing we didn't have was an intelligence [21:25] thing we didn't have was an intelligence system that had all those signals that [21:27] system that had all those signals that [21:27] system that had all those signals that could help us make decisions. So it's [21:28] could help us make decisions. So it's [21:28] could help us make decisions. So it's exciting to see this year. [21:30] exciting to see this year. [21:30] exciting to see this year. I have a theory I want to run by you, [21:32] I have a theory I want to run by you, [21:32] I have a theory I want to run by you, Roelof. Like I sort of think of [21:35] Roelof. Like I sort of think of [21:35] Roelof. Like I sort of think of like there's manager mode, [21:37] like there's manager mode, [21:37] like there's manager mode, it's a pyramid. [21:39] it's a pyramid. [21:39] it's a pyramid. The VPs make most of the decisions. [21:41] The VPs make most of the decisions. [21:41] The VPs make most of the decisions. And there's founder mode, kind of flat. [21:45] And there's founder mode, kind of flat. [21:45] And there's founder mode, kind of flat. The founder makes a lot of decisions. [21:46] The founder makes a lot of decisions. [21:47] The founder makes a lot of decisions. And then there's I'm just going to call [21:48] And then there's I'm just going to call [21:48] And then there's I'm just going to call it Dorsey mode. It's a circle and the AI [21:51] it Dorsey mode. It's a circle and the AI [21:51] it Dorsey mode. It's a circle and the AI makes most of the decisions. Do you buy [21:53] makes most of the decisions. Do you buy [21:53] makes most of the decisions. Do you buy that? [21:54] that? [21:54] that? Well, I don't think the AI makes most of [21:56] Well, I don't think the AI makes most of [21:56] Well, I don't think the AI makes most of the decisions. I think that and Jack [21:58] the decisions. I think that and Jack [21:58] the decisions. I think that and Jack should correct me here. I think the AI [21:59] should correct me here. I think the AI [21:59] should correct me here. I think the AI helps with [22:00] helps with [22:00] helps with um [22:01] um [22:01] um communicating the alignment. [22:04] communicating the alignment. [22:04] communicating the alignment. And the management team or the inner [22:05] And the management team or the inner [22:05] And the management team or the inner core helps set the framework. What is [22:07] core helps set the framework. What is [22:07] core helps set the framework. What is the objective function? Are we [22:09] the objective function? Are we [22:09] the objective function? Are we optimizing for [22:10] optimizing for [22:10] optimizing for growth rate, gross profit per employee, [22:12] growth rate, gross profit per employee, [22:12] growth rate, gross profit per employee, net promoter score, probably some [22:13] net promoter score, probably some [22:14] net promoter score, probably some combination of those variables. And the [22:15] combination of those variables. And the [22:15] combination of those variables. And the humans at the edges perform an [22:17] humans at the edges perform an [22:17] humans at the edges perform an incredibly valuable function of [22:19] incredibly valuable function of [22:19] incredibly valuable function of correcting and informing [22:21] correcting and informing [22:21] correcting and informing and sort of steering that. And I think [22:23] and sort of steering that. And I think [22:23] and sort of steering that. And I think one of the phrases that Jack has, which [22:25] one of the phrases that Jack has, which [22:25] one of the phrases that Jack has, which I absolutely love and I've stolen so [22:26] I absolutely love and I've stolen so [22:26] I absolutely love and I've stolen so many times, is companies have multiple [22:28] many times, is companies have multiple [22:28] many times, is companies have multiple founding moments. Yeah. [22:30] founding moments. Yeah. [22:30] founding moments. Yeah. There's so many smart people in your [22:32] There's so many smart people in your [22:32] There's so many smart people in your company that have clever ideas that [22:33] company that have clever ideas that [22:33] company that have clever ideas that every day inflect the product, introduce [22:36] every day inflect the product, introduce [22:36] every day inflect the product, introduce something new. And so this idea that [22:37] something new. And so this idea that [22:37] something new. And so this idea that there's just, you know, one person who [22:39] there's just, you know, one person who [22:39] there's just, you know, one person who is the brilliant person who comes up [22:40] is the brilliant person who comes up [22:40] is the brilliant person who comes up with everything. I just don't think, you [22:41] with everything. I just don't think, you [22:41] with everything. I just don't think, you know, I don't believe in hero worship or [22:44] know, I don't believe in hero worship or [22:44] know, I don't believe in hero worship or uh the converse of that where you you [22:46] uh the converse of that where you you [22:46] uh the converse of that where you you sort of scapegoat people. I think it's [22:47] sort of scapegoat people. I think it's [22:47] sort of scapegoat people. I think it's harnessing the best of of your team to [22:50] harnessing the best of of your team to [22:50] harnessing the best of of your team to really advance the company. So I [22:52] really advance the company. So I [22:52] really advance the company. So I subscribe to the circle idea. [22:54] subscribe to the circle idea. [22:54] subscribe to the circle idea. Yeah, I I I also don't think the AI is [22:56] Yeah, I I I also don't think the AI is [22:56] Yeah, I I I also don't think the AI is making the majority of the decisions. I [22:58] making the majority of the decisions. I [22:58] making the majority of the decisions. I think it's facilitating [23:00] think it's facilitating [23:00] think it's facilitating Right. a more context-rich decision. [23:03] Right. a more context-rich decision. [23:03] Right. a more context-rich decision. I I think ultimately like in the most [23:06] I I think ultimately like in the most [23:06] I I think ultimately like in the most ideal case, our customers are actually [23:08] ideal case, our customers are actually [23:08] ideal case, our customers are actually making [23:09] making [23:09] making the majority of the decision decisions [23:11] the majority of the decision decisions [23:11] the majority of the decision decisions because they're [23:12] because they're [23:12] because they're just based on their queries and what [23:14] just based on their queries and what [23:14] just based on their queries and what they're trying to do with the system. [23:16] they're trying to do with the system. [23:16] they're trying to do with the system. Um [23:17] Um [23:17] Um delineates like where our road map [23:19] delineates like where our road map [23:19] delineates like where our road map should go. And then it's up up to our [23:21] should go. And then it's up up to our [23:21] should go. And then it's up up to our judgment as to whether that's consistent [23:23] judgment as to whether that's consistent [23:23] judgment as to whether that's consistent with what we want to be and what we [23:25] with what we want to be and what we [23:25] with what we want to be and what we think is most strategic or not. [23:27] think is most strategic or not. [23:27] think is most strategic or not. Um but we we just, you know, [23:30] Um but we we just, you know, [23:30] Um but we we just, you know, we weren't able to get to that level of [23:32] we weren't able to get to that level of [23:32] we weren't able to get to that level of data fidelity before. Um because we had [23:35] data fidelity before. Um because we had [23:35] data fidelity before. Um because we had to infer it. We had to do customer [23:37] to infer it. We had to do customer [23:37] to infer it. We had to do customer research. We had to do interviews. We [23:39] research. We had to do interviews. We [23:39] research. We had to do interviews. We had to do [23:40] had to do [23:40] had to do um look at our customer support. Um [23:43] um look at our customer support. Um [23:43] um look at our customer support. Um You know, product feedback on on on [23:45] You know, product feedback on on on [23:45] You know, product feedback on on on Twitter, all these other things. [23:47] Twitter, all these other things. [23:47] Twitter, all these other things. But when your interface is a [23:49] But when your interface is a [23:49] But when your interface is a conversation with your customer instead [23:51] conversation with your customer instead [23:51] conversation with your customer instead of like this visual navigation, [23:54] of like this visual navigation, [23:54] of like this visual navigation, you suddenly get like this amazing [23:56] you suddenly get like this amazing [23:56] you suddenly get like this amazing fidelity of like what do our customers [23:58] fidelity of like what do our customers [23:58] fidelity of like what do our customers actually care about? What do they [23:59] actually care about? What do they [23:59] actually care about? What do they actually want? Mhm. And it's up to us [24:02] actually want? Mhm. And it's up to us [24:02] actually want? Mhm. And it's up to us then to decide if that's consistent with [24:04] then to decide if that's consistent with [24:05] then to decide if that's consistent with what we want to be as a company or if [24:07] what we want to be as a company or if [24:07] what we want to be as a company or if they should be going elsewhere to to to [24:09] they should be going elsewhere to to to [24:10] they should be going elsewhere to to to do that. And then [24:11] do that. And then [24:11] do that. And then I think all these things are going to [24:12] I think all these things are going to [24:12] I think all these things are going to blur. That I mean, that's the craziest [24:13] blur. That I mean, that's the craziest [24:13] blur. That I mean, that's the craziest thing is like [24:14] thing is like [24:14] thing is like you know, again since since last year, [24:16] you know, again since since last year, [24:16] you know, again since since last year, I've just had this existential dread and [24:18] I've just had this existential dread and [24:18] I've just had this existential dread and also [24:20] also [24:20] also like hope [24:22] like hope [24:22] like hope uh and optimism at in the same hour in [24:25] uh and optimism at in the same hour in [24:25] uh and optimism at in the same hour in the same thought process of like what is [24:27] the same thought process of like what is [24:27] the same thought process of like what is a what is even a company going forward? [24:29] a what is even a company going forward? [24:29] a what is even a company going forward? Like what like what are these structures [24:31] Like what like what are these structures [24:31] Like what like what are these structures going forward? [24:33] going forward? [24:33] going forward? And this is the only like durable one [24:35] And this is the only like durable one [24:35] And this is the only like durable one structure that I could actually imagine [24:38] structure that I could actually imagine [24:38] structure that I could actually imagine lasting for quite some time. Yeah. Um [24:41] lasting for quite some time. Yeah. Um [24:41] lasting for quite some time. Yeah. Um and it was coming from a place of like, [24:42] and it was coming from a place of like, [24:43] and it was coming from a place of like, "Wow, is our company just going to be [24:44] "Wow, is our company just going to be [24:44] "Wow, is our company just going to be completely irrelevant Yeah. you know, in [24:46] completely irrelevant Yeah. you know, in [24:47] completely irrelevant Yeah. you know, in in the next coming years or or even even [24:49] in the next coming years or or even even [24:49] in the next coming years or or even even sooner? Like what do we [24:52] sooner? Like what do we [24:52] sooner? Like what do we what do we actually differentiate on? [24:53] what do we actually differentiate on? [24:53] what do we actually differentiate on? What what do we have a a moat around? [24:56] What what do we have a a moat around? [24:56] What what do we have a a moat around? And what what do we need to be to defend [25:00] And what what do we need to be to defend [25:00] And what what do we need to be to defend and and also to to grow that? Um [25:03] and and also to to grow that? Um [25:03] and and also to to grow that? Um And like what are the and all that [25:05] And like what are the and all that [25:05] And like what are the and all that follows from customer expectation. Like [25:06] follows from customer expectation. Like [25:06] follows from customer expectation. Like it the most amazing thing about Open [25:08] it the most amazing thing about Open [25:08] it the most amazing thing about Open Core to me [25:10] Core to me [25:10] Core to me was that um [25:12] was that um [25:12] was that um people [25:13] people [25:13] people wanted to take this thing and contain it [25:16] wanted to take this thing and contain it [25:16] wanted to take this thing and contain it into a Mac mini and make it very [25:18] into a Mac mini and make it very [25:18] into a Mac mini and make it very tangibly theirs. [25:20] tangibly theirs. [25:20] tangibly theirs. Um and have all this agency around what [25:24] Um and have all this agency around what [25:24] Um and have all this agency around what they did with it. And we're seeing [25:26] they did with it. And we're seeing [25:26] they did with it. And we're seeing Square sellers do stuff with it like [25:28] Square sellers do stuff with it like [25:29] Square sellers do stuff with it like that. [25:30] that. [25:30] that. Interface with the the Square um [25:32] Interface with the the Square um [25:32] Interface with the the Square um APIs. [25:33] APIs. [25:33] APIs. And we're seeing Cash App customers. And [25:35] And we're seeing Cash App customers. And [25:36] And we're seeing Cash App customers. And and these are like not [25:38] and these are like not [25:38] and these are like not tech people. These are just like people [25:39] tech people. These are just like people [25:39] tech people. These are just like people I I want a I want a bot to help me [25:41] I I want a I want a bot to help me [25:41] I I want a I want a bot to help me manage my life. That agency [25:44] manage my life. That agency [25:44] manage my life. That agency independent of what your thoughts on [25:46] independent of what your thoughts on [25:46] independent of what your thoughts on like how good of a system Open Core is [25:47] like how good of a system Open Core is [25:47] like how good of a system Open Core is right now, it'll get better and better. [25:49] right now, it'll get better and better. [25:49] right now, it'll get better and better. But the intent behind that is is agency. [25:51] But the intent behind that is is agency. [25:51] But the intent behind that is is agency. I want to tangibly control this [25:55] I want to tangibly control this [25:55] I want to tangibly control this intelligence and and for it to to better [25:58] intelligence and and for it to to better [25:58] intelligence and and for it to to better me [25:59] me [25:59] me and and what it makes possible for me [26:01] and and what it makes possible for me [26:01] and and what it makes possible for me is incredible. And and that expectation [26:04] is incredible. And and that expectation [26:04] is incredible. And and that expectation floor has just risen dramatically. And [26:07] floor has just risen dramatically. And [26:07] floor has just risen dramatically. And and and that leads me again to like [26:09] and and that leads me again to like [26:09] and and that leads me again to like yeah, our our limiting factor as a [26:11] yeah, our our limiting factor as a [26:11] yeah, our our limiting factor as a company is our road map. Like we need to [26:14] company is our road map. Like we need to [26:14] company is our road map. Like we need to remove that from the equation. We need [26:16] remove that from the equation. We need [26:16] remove that from the equation. We need to ensure that our customers are truly [26:19] to ensure that our customers are truly [26:19] to ensure that our customers are truly building alongside us. Mhm. [26:22] building alongside us. Mhm. [26:22] building alongside us. Mhm. And and that they, you know, are seeing [26:24] And and that they, you know, are seeing [26:24] And and that they, you know, are seeing us as a [26:25] us as a [26:25] us as a as a series of capabilities that makes [26:28] as a series of capabilities that makes [26:28] as a series of capabilities that makes their desires fast and easy and Yeah. [26:32] their desires fast and easy and Yeah. [26:32] their desires fast and easy and Yeah. and valuable. So like it it really goes [26:34] and valuable. So like it it really goes [26:34] and valuable. So like it it really goes back to the the capability set that we [26:36] back to the the capability set that we [26:36] back to the the capability set that we have. [26:36] have. [26:36] have. And then like the intuition of the [26:38] And then like the intuition of the [26:38] And then like the intuition of the interface that we have. And then like [26:40] interface that we have. And then like [26:40] interface that we have. And then like how intelligent our world models can can [26:42] how intelligent our world models can can [26:42] how intelligent our world models can can be to to be helpful and to compose UI in [26:46] be to to be helpful and to compose UI in [26:46] be to to be helpful and to compose UI in real time. [26:47] real time. [26:47] real time. Um I spent this morning at a company we [26:50] Um I spent this morning at a company we [26:50] Um I spent this morning at a company we call Rogo here in New York City. They [26:52] call Rogo here in New York City. They [26:52] call Rogo here in New York City. They read your article. Let's say you're [26:54] read your article. Let's say you're [26:54] read your article. Let's say you're advising the CEO of a 100-person [26:56] advising the CEO of a 100-person [26:56] advising the CEO of a 100-person company. [26:57] company. [26:57] company. They've already got their hierarchy. [27:01] They've already got their hierarchy. [27:01] They've already got their hierarchy. What should they do? Should they start [27:02] What should they do? Should they start [27:02] What should they do? Should they start with their system? Should they start [27:03] with their system? Should they start [27:03] with their system? Should they start with data? Should they start with their [27:05] with data? Should they start with their [27:05] with data? Should they start with their org? Like [27:06] org? Like [27:06] org? Like how should people go about, [27:08] how should people go about, [27:08] how should people go about, you know, running the Dorsey playbook? [27:11] you know, running the Dorsey playbook? [27:11] you know, running the Dorsey playbook? Uh I don't know about this Dorsey [27:13] Uh I don't know about this Dorsey [27:13] Uh I don't know about this Dorsey playbook thing, but [27:14] playbook thing, but [27:14] playbook thing, but >> [laughter] [27:15] >> [laughter] [27:15] >> [laughter] >> um Well, we don't have it all figured [27:17] >> um Well, we don't have it all figured [27:17] >> um Well, we don't have it all figured out. I think there's an important dose [27:18] out. I think there's an important dose [27:18] out. I think there's an important dose of humility that we have that we really [27:20] of humility that we have that we really [27:20] of humility that we have that we really bring on this path. We believe it's [27:21] bring on this path. We believe it's [27:21] bring on this path. We believe it's right, but we we know there's a lot to [27:23] right, but we we know there's a lot to [27:23] right, but we we know there's a lot to figure out. Yeah, it it's more like if [27:25] figure out. Yeah, it it's more like if [27:25] figure out. Yeah, it it's more like if if you were to [27:26] if you were to [27:26] if you were to at at 100 people or even, you know, just [27:29] at at 100 people or even, you know, just [27:29] at at 100 people or even, you know, just starting today, if you were to build [27:30] starting today, if you were to build [27:30] starting today, if you were to build your company as an AGI, as an [27:32] your company as an AGI, as an [27:32] your company as an AGI, as an intelligence, what would it look like? [27:34] intelligence, what would it look like? [27:34] intelligence, what would it look like? And what would you need uh to really [27:36] And what would you need uh to really [27:36] And what would you need uh to really differentiate? Like [27:37] differentiate? Like [27:37] differentiate? Like if I were starting a company today, I [27:39] if I were starting a company today, I [27:39] if I were starting a company today, I would be so excited about how quickly I [27:41] would be so excited about how quickly I [27:41] would be so excited about how quickly I could build things and how quickly I [27:42] could build things and how quickly I [27:43] could build things and how quickly I could prototype and [27:44] could prototype and [27:44] could prototype and get things out to customers. I would be [27:47] get things out to customers. I would be [27:47] get things out to customers. I would be um in this like valley of dread about [27:49] um in this like valley of dread about [27:49] um in this like valley of dread about distribution Yeah. and attention because [27:52] distribution Yeah. and attention because [27:52] distribution Yeah. and attention because there is so much noise out there and [27:55] there is so much noise out there and [27:55] there is so much noise out there and it's so hard to get to the actual signal [27:58] it's so hard to get to the actual signal [27:58] it's so hard to get to the actual signal of like who's building something [27:59] of like who's building something [27:59] of like who's building something interesting [28:00] interesting [28:00] interesting that will actually fundamentally change [28:03] that will actually fundamentally change [28:03] that will actually fundamentally change something and will be around for more [28:05] something and will be around for more [28:05] something and will be around for more than a year. Yeah. It it's like I think [28:08] than a year. Yeah. It it's like I think [28:08] than a year. Yeah. It it's like I think distribution really becomes a [28:11] distribution really becomes a [28:11] distribution really becomes a differentiator. And I think there's some [28:12] differentiator. And I think there's some [28:12] differentiator. And I think there's some event horizon [28:14] event horizon [28:14] event horizon where the the way we think about [28:15] where the the way we think about [28:15] where the the way we think about distribution today closes off. [28:18] distribution today closes off. [28:18] distribution today closes off. You know, it like there's [28:20] You know, it like there's [28:20] You know, it like there's there's um the you know, [28:22] there's um the you know, [28:22] there's um the you know, apps for instance and websites and [28:26] apps for instance and websites and [28:26] apps for instance and websites and uh like the the traditional retail. [28:28] uh like the the traditional retail. [28:28] uh like the the traditional retail. There there's a number of [28:30] There there's a number of [28:30] There there's a number of things that will will change. And if you [28:32] things that will will change. And if you [28:32] things that will will change. And if you don't have the distribution today, it's [28:33] don't have the distribution today, it's [28:33] don't have the distribution today, it's going to be very hard to fight for that. [28:36] going to be very hard to fight for that. [28:36] going to be very hard to fight for that. But there'll be new areas of [28:38] But there'll be new areas of [28:38] But there'll be new areas of distribution that are probably more [28:39] distribution that are probably more [28:39] distribution that are probably more important. And I don't know what those [28:41] important. And I don't know what those [28:41] important. And I don't know what those look like. [28:42] look like. [28:42] look like. But I would say like I would I would [28:44] But I would say like I would I would [28:44] But I would say like I would I would assume that a company of 100 probably is [28:46] assume that a company of 100 probably is [28:46] assume that a company of 100 probably is no more than [28:48] no more than [28:48] no more than two to three layers deep, hopefully. [28:50] two to three layers deep, hopefully. [28:50] two to three layers deep, hopefully. Um And now would be the time to just [28:52] Um And now would be the time to just [28:52] Um And now would be the time to just like really question [28:54] like really question [28:54] like really question like do I [28:55] like do I [28:55] like do I do I need a hierarchy? Like Brian, [28:58] do I need a hierarchy? Like Brian, [28:58] do I need a hierarchy? Like Brian, a year into Square, I also we removed [29:01] a year into Square, I also we removed [29:01] a year into Square, I also we removed titles. We normalized everyone to lead. [29:04] titles. We normalized everyone to lead. [29:04] titles. We normalized everyone to lead. Yeah. We did it for like we were talking [29:06] Yeah. We did it for like we were talking [29:06] Yeah. We did it for like we were talking with all these banks all the time and [29:08] with all these banks all the time and [29:08] with all these banks all the time and you would have these EVPs and VPs and [29:10] you would have these EVPs and VPs and [29:10] you would have these EVPs and VPs and they were looking for the same on a [29:11] they were looking for the same on a [29:11] they were looking for the same on a business card. And there's this whole [29:12] business card. And there's this whole [29:12] business card. And there's this whole business card culture. Yep. So we ripped [29:14] business card culture. Yep. So we ripped [29:14] business card culture. Yep. So we ripped up all the business cards. We we [29:16] up all the business cards. We we [29:16] up all the business cards. We we normalized down to a title of like [29:18] normalized down to a title of like [29:18] normalized down to a title of like you're a lead of what. And the longer [29:20] you're a lead of what. And the longer [29:20] you're a lead of what. And the longer that is behind lead is [29:23] that is behind lead is [29:23] that is behind lead is probably the farther down you are in the [29:24] probably the farther down you are in the [29:24] probably the farther down you are in the organization. Um [29:26] organization. Um [29:26] organization. Um And we've kept it. Like we we, you know, [29:28] And we've kept it. Like we we, you know, [29:28] And we've kept it. Like we we, you know, we don't have titles. We we have like, [29:31] we don't have titles. We we have like, [29:31] we don't have titles. We we have like, you know, what do you lead? Um going [29:33] you know, what do you lead? Um going [29:33] you know, what do you lead? Um going back to like the DRI thing, what what [29:35] back to like the DRI thing, what what [29:35] back to like the DRI thing, what what are you ultimately responsible for? [29:37] are you ultimately responsible for? [29:37] are you ultimately responsible for? And I I think it's helped us [29:39] And I I think it's helped us [29:40] And I I think it's helped us a lot. Um [29:41] a lot. Um [29:41] a lot. Um But this is an another step. Like it if [29:44] But this is an another step. Like it if [29:44] But this is an another step. Like it if if you're starting today or you're 100 [29:46] if you're starting today or you're 100 [29:46] if you're starting today or you're 100 today, like [29:47] today, like [29:47] today, like what what is actually fundamental to [29:49] what what is actually fundamental to [29:49] what what is actually fundamental to solving your your customer's problems [29:51] solving your your customer's problems [29:51] solving your your customer's problems and and and where is the hierarchy [29:53] and and and where is the hierarchy [29:53] and and and where is the hierarchy getting in the way of that? [29:54] getting in the way of that? [29:54] getting in the way of that? And look at all the tools you're using. [29:56] And look at all the tools you're using. [29:56] And look at all the tools you're using. Like look at all the information you're [29:58] Like look at all the information you're [29:58] Like look at all the information you're generating just by doing your work. [30:00] generating just by doing your work. [30:00] generating just by doing your work. Like just putting that into an [30:02] Like just putting that into an [30:02] Like just putting that into an intelligence and being able to query it [30:04] intelligence and being able to query it [30:04] intelligence and being able to query it will [30:05] will [30:05] will give you an understanding of the company [30:07] give you an understanding of the company [30:07] give you an understanding of the company that like is two to three times more [30:09] that like is two to three times more [30:10] that like is two to three times more than you had before ever. Because you're [30:12] than you had before ever. Because you're [30:12] than you had before ever. Because you're relying upon on people telling you [30:13] relying upon on people telling you [30:14] relying upon on people telling you things. [30:15] things. [30:15] things. And you know [30:16] And you know [30:16] And you know that doesn't always happen for various [30:18] that doesn't always happen for various [30:18] that doesn't always happen for various reasons that you know Roelof spoke to in [30:20] reasons that you know Roelof spoke to in [30:20] reasons that you know Roelof spoke to in terms of agenda or politics or emotions [30:23] terms of agenda or politics or emotions [30:23] terms of agenda or politics or emotions or empathy all all these things. [30:25] or empathy all all these things. [30:25] or empathy all all these things. If imagine if your company was entirely [30:27] If imagine if your company was entirely [30:27] If imagine if your company was entirely legible. [30:28] legible. [30:28] legible. Like entirely legible every aspect of it [30:30] Like entirely legible every aspect of it [30:30] Like entirely legible every aspect of it and we're not far off from that from a [30:32] and we're not far off from that from a [30:32] and we're not far off from that from a data perspective. It's putting the [30:34] data perspective. It's putting the [30:34] data perspective. It's putting the intelligence on top of it and making it [30:36] intelligence on top of it and making it [30:36] intelligence on top of it and making it um useful and then making it proactive. [30:39] um useful and then making it proactive. [30:39] um useful and then making it proactive. Like that's that's the hardest bet is [30:41] Like that's that's the hardest bet is [30:41] Like that's that's the hardest bet is like we can determine causal [30:43] like we can determine causal [30:43] like we can determine causal getting to predictability for these [30:46] getting to predictability for these [30:46] getting to predictability for these world models around the company and and [30:47] world models around the company and and [30:47] world models around the company and and customer is [30:49] customer is [30:49] customer is is still right now a very much a [30:51] is still right now a very much a [30:51] is still right now a very much a research but um but like it's it's one [30:53] research but um but like it's it's one [30:53] research but um but like it's it's one that [30:54] that [30:54] that you know it it's eminently solvable. [30:57] you know it it's eminently solvable. [30:57] you know it it's eminently solvable. Can you guys just take me behind the [30:59] Can you guys just take me behind the [30:59] Can you guys just take me behind the scenes? Like Jack this was a [31:02] scenes? Like Jack this was a [31:02] scenes? Like Jack this was a really bold move. You laid off 40% of [31:04] really bold move. You laid off 40% of [31:04] really bold move. You laid off 40% of your employees. [31:06] your employees. [31:06] your employees. Just like for CEOs listening what was [31:09] Just like for CEOs listening what was [31:09] Just like for CEOs listening what was that debate inside like how big it [31:11] that debate inside like how big it [31:11] that debate inside like how big it should it be how bold should it be? [31:15] should it be how bold should it be? [31:15] should it be how bold should it be? You know Ruth Porat's got this good line [31:17] You know Ruth Porat's got this good line [31:17] You know Ruth Porat's got this good line if you're going to [31:18] if you're going to [31:18] if you're going to we can eat a [ __ ] sandwich don't nibble [31:21] we can eat a [ __ ] sandwich don't nibble [31:21] we can eat a [ __ ] sandwich don't nibble and you seem like you took a big bite. [31:23] and you seem like you took a big bite. [31:24] and you seem like you took a big bite. What was that debate behind the scenes [31:25] What was that debate behind the scenes [31:25] What was that debate behind the scenes and then Roelof like [31:27] and then Roelof like [31:27] and then Roelof like how did he pitch it to you guys and what [31:29] how did he pitch it to you guys and what [31:29] how did he pitch it to you guys and what was the board's reaction just like [31:30] was the board's reaction just like [31:31] was the board's reaction just like behind the scenes on that? Yeah. [31:33] behind the scenes on that? Yeah. [31:33] behind the scenes on that? Yeah. So um [31:36] So um [31:36] So um it was something you know [31:38] it was something you know [31:38] it was something you know December of last year is when the is the [31:41] December of last year is when the is the [31:41] December of last year is when the is the when the models really got a uh [31:44] when the models really got a uh [31:44] when the models really got a uh like noticeable full upgrade from being [31:46] like noticeable full upgrade from being [31:46] like noticeable full upgrade from being able to be really good at building [31:48] able to be really good at building [31:48] able to be really good at building prototypes and greenfield efforts to [31:50] prototypes and greenfield efforts to [31:50] prototypes and greenfield efforts to like understanding like large code bases [31:52] like understanding like large code bases [31:52] like understanding like large code bases and legacy code bases like our own. [31:54] and legacy code bases like our own. [31:54] and legacy code bases like our own. Um [31:56] Um [31:56] Um there was you know hallucination wasn't [31:58] there was you know hallucination wasn't [31:58] there was you know hallucination wasn't much of a topic in terms of like the the [32:00] much of a topic in terms of like the the [32:00] much of a topic in terms of like the the coding ability and [32:02] coding ability and [32:02] coding ability and the tool harnesses we became suddenly [32:05] the tool harnesses we became suddenly [32:05] the tool harnesses we became suddenly very mature. Like just in that month. [32:08] very mature. Like just in that month. [32:08] very mature. Like just in that month. And um [32:10] And um [32:10] And um it just like every everyone went home [32:13] it just like every everyone went home [32:13] it just like every everyone went home for the holidays and everyone [32:15] for the holidays and everyone [32:15] for the holidays and everyone played with these tools and they were [32:17] played with these tools and they were [32:17] played with these tools and they were surprised at how capable they were [32:19] surprised at how capable they were [32:20] surprised at how capable they were uh and what they could do with them and [32:21] uh and what they could do with them and [32:21] uh and what they could do with them and you know we came back and [32:23] you know we came back and [32:23] you know we came back and the conversation was like [32:26] the conversation was like [32:26] the conversation was like just going around the table would would [32:28] just going around the table would would [32:28] just going around the table would would you build the company that this way [32:31] you build the company that this way [32:31] you build the company that this way if you had these tools today? Like what [32:32] if you had these tools today? Like what [32:32] if you had these tools today? Like what would the company look like? And [32:35] would the company look like? And [32:35] would the company look like? And everyone around the table in my team [32:37] everyone around the table in my team [32:37] everyone around the table in my team just said like it would not look like [32:38] just said like it would not look like [32:38] just said like it would not look like this. It would not be this size. It [32:40] this. It would not be this size. It [32:40] this. It would not be this size. It would not be structured this way. [32:42] would not be structured this way. [32:42] would not be structured this way. And we've been making like [32:44] And we've been making like [32:44] And we've been making like changes on the on the edge like you know [32:46] changes on the on the edge like you know [32:46] changes on the on the edge like you know going from a GM structure to a [32:48] going from a GM structure to a [32:48] going from a GM structure to a functional structure to [32:50] functional structure to [32:50] functional structure to reduce like putting a a cap on our [32:52] reduce like putting a a cap on our [32:52] reduce like putting a a cap on our layers to four me plus four and [32:55] layers to four me plus four and [32:55] layers to four me plus four and all these like small things um [32:57] all these like small things um [32:57] all these like small things um but if we were to really reboot and [32:59] but if we were to really reboot and [32:59] but if we were to really reboot and rebuild the company like would we end up [33:01] rebuild the company like would we end up [33:01] rebuild the company like would we end up where we where we look today and the [33:03] where we where we look today and the [33:03] where we where we look today and the answer was uniformly no. [33:05] answer was uniformly no. [33:05] answer was uniformly no. Yeah. And and then we just did this [33:07] Yeah. And and then we just did this [33:07] Yeah. And and then we just did this exercise of like [33:09] exercise of like [33:09] exercise of like okay so what is the minimum number of [33:11] okay so what is the minimum number of [33:11] okay so what is the minimum number of people that we would need to keep the [33:13] people that we would need to keep the [33:13] people that we would need to keep the service up 100%? [33:16] service up 100%? [33:16] service up 100%? And then next what is the minimum number [33:17] And then next what is the minimum number [33:18] And then next what is the minimum number of people that we would need to [33:21] of people that we would need to [33:21] of people that we would need to um be [33:22] um be [33:23] um be to to uh fully um be in compliance with [33:26] to to uh fully um be in compliance with [33:26] to to uh fully um be in compliance with our regulators. [33:27] our regulators. [33:27] our regulators. Uh we're highly regulated business so [33:29] Uh we're highly regulated business so [33:29] Uh we're highly regulated business so that one's extremely important to us [33:31] that one's extremely important to us [33:31] that one's extremely important to us and legal obviously. [33:33] and legal obviously. [33:33] and legal obviously. And then third what is the minimal set [33:35] And then third what is the minimal set [33:35] And then third what is the minimal set of folks that we need in order to grow [33:39] of folks that we need in order to grow [33:39] of folks that we need in order to grow to fulfill our commitments we've made to [33:40] to fulfill our commitments we've made to [33:40] to fulfill our commitments we've made to the street but also rebuild the company [33:43] the street but also rebuild the company [33:43] the street but also rebuild the company as an intelligence and that's [33:46] as an intelligence and that's [33:46] as an intelligence and that's roughly the number that we got to and we [33:47] roughly the number that we got to and we [33:47] roughly the number that we got to and we built in [33:49] built in [33:49] built in some buffer in case we made mistakes [33:52] some buffer in case we made mistakes [33:52] some buffer in case we made mistakes which we did and you know it [33:54] which we did and you know it [33:54] which we did and you know it hard hard not to um [33:56] hard hard not to um [33:56] hard hard not to um especially operating the way we have. [33:58] especially operating the way we have. [33:58] especially operating the way we have. Like I think going forward it'll be much [33:59] Like I think going forward it'll be much [33:59] Like I think going forward it'll be much easier because more of the company will [34:01] easier because more of the company will [34:01] easier because more of the company will be legible and all of our actions will [34:03] be legible and all of our actions will [34:03] be legible and all of our actions will be a lot more legible so I'd have a lot [34:06] be a lot more legible so I'd have a lot [34:06] be a lot more legible so I'd have a lot more confidence going forward than not. [34:08] more confidence going forward than not. [34:08] more confidence going forward than not. But um [34:10] But um [34:10] But um it was it was that and and and that was [34:12] it was it was that and and and that was [34:12] it was it was that and and and that was a span of you know [34:14] a span of you know [34:14] a span of you know exploration to execution and and you [34:17] exploration to execution and and you [34:17] exploration to execution and and you know under under three weeks um and I I [34:20] know under under three weeks um and I I [34:20] know under under three weeks um and I I think generally [34:22] think generally [34:22] think generally I wanted to make sure that we [34:24] I wanted to make sure that we [34:25] I wanted to make sure that we if we knew that this was what our [34:27] if we knew that this was what our [34:27] if we knew that this was what our company was going to be in the future [34:30] company was going to be in the future [34:30] company was going to be in the future I didn't want to have to do it with our [34:32] I didn't want to have to do it with our [34:32] I didn't want to have to do it with our backs against the wall. We're a public [34:34] backs against the wall. We're a public [34:34] backs against the wall. We're a public company [34:35] company [34:35] company and there's various challenges there and [34:37] and there's various challenges there and [34:37] and there's various challenges there and other companies will [34:39] other companies will [34:39] other companies will will probably get to this realization at [34:41] will probably get to this realization at [34:41] will probably get to this realization at some point. I don't want to react to [34:42] some point. I don't want to react to [34:42] some point. I don't want to react to that. I want to [34:43] that. I want to [34:43] that. I want to I want to um [34:45] I want to um [34:45] I want to um I want to be ahead of it because then we [34:47] I want to be ahead of it because then we [34:47] I want to be ahead of it because then we can do it [34:48] can do it [34:49] can do it with a lot more integrity. We can do it [34:51] with a lot more integrity. We can do it [34:51] with a lot more integrity. We can do it with a lot more generosity for the [34:53] with a lot more generosity for the [34:53] with a lot more generosity for the people that we're asking to to leave [34:56] people that we're asking to to leave [34:56] people that we're asking to to leave um and even for the people that we're [34:57] um and even for the people that we're [34:57] um and even for the people that we're asking to stay [34:59] asking to stay [34:59] asking to stay and we're we're not just reacting into [35:02] and we're we're not just reacting into [35:02] and we're we're not just reacting into um something mediocre. We're we're you [35:05] um something mediocre. We're we're you [35:05] um something mediocre. We're we're you know [35:06] know [35:06] know uh acting towards excellence and and [35:08] uh acting towards excellence and and [35:08] uh acting towards excellence and and like that's just the tone that we wanted [35:10] like that's just the tone that we wanted [35:10] like that's just the tone that we wanted to set. So [35:12] to set. So [35:12] to set. So um [35:13] um [35:13] um you know every every day it was just [35:14] you know every every day it was just [35:15] you know every every day it was just like constantly checking like are we [35:16] like constantly checking like are we [35:16] like constantly checking like are we doing the right thing? Is this [35:18] doing the right thing? Is this [35:19] doing the right thing? Is this the right set of folks? Like um [35:21] the right set of folks? Like um [35:21] the right set of folks? Like um like what are we not thinking about? [35:22] like what are we not thinking about? [35:22] like what are we not thinking about? What are we not talking about? And we [35:25] What are we not talking about? And we [35:25] What are we not talking about? And we you know we kept the the group very very [35:27] you know we kept the the group very very [35:27] you know we kept the the group very very tight. [35:28] tight. [35:28] tight. Um and [35:30] Um and [35:30] Um and had a conversation with with the board [35:32] had a conversation with with the board [35:32] had a conversation with with the board um [35:33] um [35:33] um which was uh [35:35] which was uh [35:35] which was uh my perspective [35:36] my perspective [35:37] my perspective very open to it and and actually more [35:40] very open to it and and actually more [35:40] very open to it and and actually more more than open more like yes we agree [35:42] more than open more like yes we agree [35:42] more than open more like yes we agree like we we should we should do this but [35:44] like we we should we should do this but [35:44] like we we should we should do this but I'll I'll let Roelof speak to that. [35:47] I'll I'll let Roelof speak to that. [35:47] I'll I'll let Roelof speak to that. It was a very quick process. Okay. I [35:49] It was a very quick process. Okay. I [35:49] It was a very quick process. Okay. I think part of what helps is that Jack [35:51] think part of what helps is that Jack [35:51] think part of what helps is that Jack had written us a very detailed note [35:55] had written us a very detailed note [35:55] had written us a very detailed note laying out the logic. It's principled. [35:58] laying out the logic. It's principled. [35:58] laying out the logic. It's principled. It's not [35:59] It's not [35:59] It's not re- as Jack was saying it's not [36:00] re- as Jack was saying it's not [36:00] re- as Jack was saying it's not reactionary. It's very well laid out [36:03] reactionary. It's very well laid out [36:03] reactionary. It's very well laid out very logical. [36:05] very logical. [36:05] very logical. It was clear that the company and the [36:06] It was clear that the company and the [36:06] It was clear that the company and the management team was interested in the [36:08] management team was interested in the [36:08] management team was interested in the conversation about how to make this work [36:10] conversation about how to make this work [36:10] conversation about how to make this work um as opposed to being dogmatic and [36:12] um as opposed to being dogmatic and [36:12] um as opposed to being dogmatic and saying we have it all figured out. So [36:13] saying we have it all figured out. So [36:13] saying we have it all figured out. So even in the course of those three weeks [36:15] even in the course of those three weeks [36:15] even in the course of those three weeks elements of this evolved and it evolved [36:17] elements of this evolved and it evolved [36:17] elements of this evolved and it evolved in light of feedback from management [36:19] in light of feedback from management [36:19] in light of feedback from management team members and board members. You know [36:21] team members and board members. You know [36:21] team members and board members. You know some of some of where we started in in [36:23] some of some of where we started in in [36:23] some of some of where we started in in the first of those three weeks is [36:24] the first of those three weeks is [36:24] the first of those three weeks is different from where we in ultimately [36:26] different from where we in ultimately [36:26] different from where we in ultimately landed by the time the announcement took [36:28] landed by the time the announcement took [36:28] landed by the time the announcement took place. [36:30] place. [36:30] place. And also I think it's is the an example [36:31] And also I think it's is the an example [36:31] And also I think it's is the an example of where we've built enormous trust [36:33] of where we've built enormous trust [36:33] of where we've built enormous trust between the board and the management [36:34] between the board and the management [36:35] between the board and the management team. You know we've been through a lot [36:37] team. You know we've been through a lot [36:37] team. You know we've been through a lot as a team [36:38] as a team [36:38] as a team and so we have a lot of short hands to [36:40] and so we have a lot of short hands to [36:40] and so we have a lot of short hands to be able to make crucial decisions like [36:42] be able to make crucial decisions like [36:42] be able to make crucial decisions like this. We gathered several times in quick [36:44] this. We gathered several times in quick [36:44] this. We gathered several times in quick succession to make sure we drilled in on [36:46] succession to make sure we drilled in on [36:46] succession to make sure we drilled in on the key issues. [36:48] the key issues. [36:48] the key issues. And the board was fully supportive. [36:50] And the board was fully supportive. [36:50] And the board was fully supportive. You two Roelof you've been on a lot of [36:52] You two Roelof you've been on a lot of [36:52] You two Roelof you've been on a lot of boards. Jack you've had your ups and [36:53] boards. Jack you've had your ups and [36:53] boards. Jack you've had your ups and downs with different boards. Any advice [36:55] downs with different boards. Any advice [36:55] downs with different boards. Any advice for these CEOs listening that [36:58] for these CEOs listening that [36:58] for these CEOs listening that should they start bringing in 100 [36:59] should they start bringing in 100 [36:59] should they start bringing in 100 employees? Should they start bringing in [37:00] employees? Should they start bringing in [37:00] employees? Should they start bringing in independence? Should they like how do [37:02] independence? Should they like how do [37:02] independence? Should they like how do you build an amazing board that really [37:04] you build an amazing board that really [37:04] you build an amazing board that really serves the [37:06] serves the [37:06] serves the the company well the employees well the [37:08] the company well the employees well the [37:08] the company well the employees well the investors well the customers well. Like [37:10] investors well the customers well. Like [37:10] investors well the customers well. Like what's your advice on that? [37:12] what's your advice on that? [37:12] what's your advice on that? I mean early on I always told myself and [37:15] I mean early on I always told myself and [37:15] I mean early on I always told myself and my team that like [37:17] my team that like [37:17] my team that like your your first board is your investors [37:19] your your first board is your investors [37:19] your your first board is your investors right? Um and uh [37:22] right? Um and uh [37:22] right? Um and uh I would treat [37:23] I would treat [37:23] I would treat that relationship as a hire you can [37:25] that relationship as a hire you can [37:25] that relationship as a hire you can never fire and in fact they can fire you [37:28] never fire and in fact they can fire you [37:28] never fire and in fact they can fire you and I've been on the other side of that. [37:30] and I've been on the other side of that. [37:30] and I've been on the other side of that. So [37:31] So [37:31] So it really puts pressure on finding the [37:34] it really puts pressure on finding the [37:34] it really puts pressure on finding the right person that you'd actually want to [37:36] right person that you'd actually want to [37:36] right person that you'd actually want to work with at the company knowing that [37:38] work with at the company knowing that [37:38] work with at the company knowing that you could never fire them. [37:39] you could never fire them. [37:40] you could never fire them. Uh and and again they can fire you. [37:42] Uh and and again they can fire you. [37:42] Uh and and again they can fire you. And for me it was around you know I I [37:45] And for me it was around you know I I [37:45] And for me it was around you know I I think a lot of young founders kind of go [37:47] think a lot of young founders kind of go [37:47] think a lot of young founders kind of go for the brand names [37:49] for the brand names [37:49] for the brand names uh especially around VCs but [37:52] uh especially around VCs but [37:52] uh especially around VCs but I always uh wanted to go for the for the [37:54] I always uh wanted to go for the for the [37:54] I always uh wanted to go for the for the person um and you know that's why [37:57] person um and you know that's why [37:57] person um and you know that's why uh Roelof um you know we we were we were [38:00] uh Roelof um you know we we were we were [38:00] uh Roelof um you know we we were we were optimizing for for him to be on our [38:02] optimizing for for him to be on our [38:02] optimizing for for him to be on our board [38:03] board [38:03] board and be an investor but like it was [38:06] and be an investor but like it was [38:06] and be an investor but like it was it was the fact that like he would [38:07] it was the fact that like he would [38:07] it was the fact that like he would uplevel our conversation uplevel our [38:09] uplevel our conversation uplevel our [38:09] uplevel our conversation uplevel our execution more than anything else and [38:11] execution more than anything else and [38:11] execution more than anything else and challenge us along the way. [38:13] challenge us along the way. [38:13] challenge us along the way. Um [38:14] Um [38:15] Um so [38:16] so [38:16] so even as you think about adding [38:18] even as you think about adding [38:18] even as you think about adding independent board members like the [38:20] independent board members like the [38:20] independent board members like the the core function of a board is to [38:23] the core function of a board is to [38:23] the core function of a board is to ensure that the company has the right [38:24] ensure that the company has the right [38:24] ensure that the company has the right CEO. Like that's their one job. [38:26] CEO. Like that's their one job. [38:26] CEO. Like that's their one job. Um they have all these committee [38:28] Um they have all these committee [38:28] Um they have all these committee responsibilities and but the ultimate [38:30] responsibilities and but the ultimate [38:30] responsibilities and but the ultimate fiduciary [38:31] fiduciary [38:31] fiduciary duty is like do we have the right CEO [38:33] duty is like do we have the right CEO [38:33] duty is like do we have the right CEO going forward? [38:35] going forward? [38:35] going forward? And I think you have to build a board [38:37] And I think you have to build a board [38:37] And I think you have to build a board that has different perspective on that. [38:39] that has different perspective on that. [38:39] that has different perspective on that. Um and that is open to [38:42] Um and that is open to [38:42] Um and that is open to wild ideas that things that are going to [38:45] wild ideas that things that are going to [38:45] wild ideas that things that are going to just seem like crazy uh in the moment [38:47] just seem like crazy uh in the moment [38:47] just seem like crazy uh in the moment which like this one might might be. [38:50] which like this one might might be. [38:50] which like this one might might be. Um but it can be rationalized if we talk [38:53] Um but it can be rationalized if we talk [38:53] Um but it can be rationalized if we talk through it and we like really [38:55] through it and we like really [38:55] through it and we like really document it and paint a picture of like [38:57] document it and paint a picture of like [38:57] document it and paint a picture of like where the where this could go and like [38:58] where the where this could go and like [38:58] where the where this could go and like what the opportunity cost is if we don't [39:01] what the opportunity cost is if we don't [39:01] what the opportunity cost is if we don't do something um because [39:03] do something um because [39:03] do something um because like if we didn't do something like this [39:05] like if we didn't do something like this [39:05] like if we didn't do something like this I just imagine like every year it's a [39:06] I just imagine like every year it's a [39:07] I just imagine like every year it's a 10% riff or 20% riff or whatever it is [39:09] 10% riff or 20% riff or whatever it is [39:09] 10% riff or 20% riff or whatever it is and like [39:10] and like [39:10] and like that is just the most demoralizing [39:13] that is just the most demoralizing [39:13] that is just the most demoralizing like crappy like non-creative building [39:16] like crappy like non-creative building [39:16] like crappy like non-creative building of a company ever. And it's all you know [39:20] of a company ever. And it's all you know [39:20] of a company ever. And it's all you know with your backs against the wall and [39:22] with your backs against the wall and [39:22] with your backs against the wall and like it just feels like losing [39:24] like it just feels like losing [39:24] like it just feels like losing constantly. Um and [39:27] constantly. Um and [39:27] constantly. Um and I you know I had a conversation with the [39:29] I you know I had a conversation with the [39:29] I you know I had a conversation with the board about I don't want that. Like [39:30] board about I don't want that. Like [39:30] board about I don't want that. Like that's not [39:32] that's not [39:32] that's not I don't want to be at a company like [39:33] I don't want to be at a company like [39:33] I don't want to be at a company like that. Like it it's just it doesn't make [39:35] that. Like it it's just it doesn't make [39:35] that. Like it it's just it doesn't make sense. It's soul-crushing you know and [39:37] sense. It's soul-crushing you know and [39:37] sense. It's soul-crushing you know and it's just not not inspiring and I I feel [39:40] it's just not not inspiring and I I feel [39:40] it's just not not inspiring and I I feel good about it. So [39:41] good about it. So [39:41] good about it. So here's here's what I do feel good about [39:43] here's here's what I do feel good about [39:43] here's here's what I do feel good about and like let's let's go. Let's let's [39:46] and like let's let's go. Let's let's [39:46] and like let's let's go. Let's let's challenge it. [39:47] challenge it. [39:47] challenge it. Well, Jack, you're on a lot of boards. [39:49] Well, Jack, you're on a lot of boards. [39:49] Well, Jack, you're on a lot of boards. You're on some really good ones. [39:51] You're on some really good ones. [39:51] You're on some really good ones. Advice for CEOs how to build a board. [39:54] Advice for CEOs how to build a board. [39:54] Advice for CEOs how to build a board. >> [snorts] [39:55] >> [snorts] [39:55] >> [snorts] >> I think the first financing when you get [39:57] >> I think the first financing when you get [39:57] >> I think the first financing when you get an investor if you're getting an [39:59] an investor if you're getting an [39:59] an investor if you're getting an investor board member, you should treat [40:01] investor board member, you should treat [40:01] investor board member, you should treat it as a recruiting decision. [40:03] it as a recruiting decision. [40:03] it as a recruiting decision. Not a financing decision. [40:06] Not a financing decision. [40:06] Not a financing decision. Cuz they'll have a much bigger bearing [40:08] Cuz they'll have a much bigger bearing [40:08] Cuz they'll have a much bigger bearing on the ultimate outcome of your company. [40:11] on the ultimate outcome of your company. [40:11] on the ultimate outcome of your company. And then I'm generally a fan of getting [40:12] And then I'm generally a fan of getting [40:12] And then I'm generally a fan of getting a very good independent board member [40:14] a very good independent board member [40:14] a very good independent board member within a year or two. Okay. Uh certainly [40:16] within a year or two. Okay. Uh certainly [40:17] within a year or two. Okay. Uh certainly by the time you get product market fit. [40:18] by the time you get product market fit. [40:18] by the time you get product market fit. And I think there's a a different [40:19] And I think there's a a different [40:19] And I think there's a a different relationship that the [40:21] relationship that the [40:21] relationship that the founder has with the investor board [40:23] founder has with the investor board [40:23] founder has with the investor board member by virtue of what Jack, you know, [40:25] member by virtue of what Jack, you know, [40:25] member by virtue of what Jack, you know, described that sometimes, you know, that [40:27] described that sometimes, you know, that [40:27] described that sometimes, you know, that person may [40:29] person may [40:29] person may come to the conclusion that the founder [40:30] come to the conclusion that the founder [40:30] come to the conclusion that the founder is no longer the right person to run the [40:31] is no longer the right person to run the [40:31] is no longer the right person to run the company, maybe rightly, maybe wrongly. [40:34] company, maybe rightly, maybe wrongly. [40:34] company, maybe rightly, maybe wrongly. Um if you can get an independent board [40:35] Um if you can get an independent board [40:35] Um if you can get an independent board member, there's a different relationship [40:37] member, there's a different relationship [40:37] member, there's a different relationship that the founder has with that board [40:38] that the founder has with that board [40:38] that the founder has with that board member. And especially if that person [40:40] member. And especially if that person [40:40] member. And especially if that person has previous experience, it can be a [40:43] has previous experience, it can be a [40:43] has previous experience, it can be a fantastic mental relationship to help [40:44] fantastic mental relationship to help [40:45] fantastic mental relationship to help the founder on that journey depending [40:46] the founder on that journey depending [40:46] the founder on that journey depending obviously on their level of experience. [40:48] obviously on their level of experience. [40:48] obviously on their level of experience. Um [40:49] Um [40:50] Um I think boards are often built too late [40:52] I think boards are often built too late [40:52] I think boards are often built too late in a rush, especially in the run-up to [40:53] in a rush, especially in the run-up to [40:53] in a rush, especially in the run-up to an IPO where people suddenly realize, [40:55] an IPO where people suddenly realize, [40:55] an IPO where people suddenly realize, "Ooh, I've got a four-person board and I [40:56] "Ooh, I've got a four-person board and I [40:56] "Ooh, I've got a four-person board and I need nine." or whatever the case is. And [40:57] need nine." or whatever the case is. And [40:57] need nine." or whatever the case is. And then you suddenly assemble people who [40:59] then you suddenly assemble people who [40:59] then you suddenly assemble people who have no context, they have no history, [41:01] have no context, they have no history, [41:01] have no context, they have no history, and they have no chemistry. Cuz you will [41:03] and they have no chemistry. Cuz you will [41:03] and they have no chemistry. Cuz you will be tested. [41:05] be tested. [41:05] be tested. You're going to have a situation where [41:06] You're going to have a situation where [41:06] You're going to have a situation where there's a short seller report or you're [41:08] there's a short seller report or you're [41:08] there's a short seller report or you're dealing with a hostile, you know, [41:09] dealing with a hostile, you know, [41:09] dealing with a hostile, you know, situation with uh activist investor or a [41:12] situation with uh activist investor or a [41:12] situation with uh activist investor or a tricky financing, you know, that really [41:14] tricky financing, you know, that really [41:14] tricky financing, you know, that really test the metal of the team. And you want [41:17] test the metal of the team. And you want [41:17] test the metal of the team. And you want to understand the dynamic between the [41:18] to understand the dynamic between the [41:18] to understand the dynamic between the board members and just their willingness [41:20] board members and just their willingness [41:20] board members and just their willingness to go along and their alignment with the [41:22] to go along and their alignment with the [41:22] to go along and their alignment with the core values of the business. And so I [41:24] core values of the business. And so I [41:24] core values of the business. And so I just think it's one of those things that [41:25] just think it's one of those things that [41:25] just think it's one of those things that requires a lot more care than I think [41:26] requires a lot more care than I think [41:26] requires a lot more care than I think most people apply to it. Yeah. [41:29] most people apply to it. Yeah. [41:29] most people apply to it. Yeah. Jack, you you've started couple great [41:31] Jack, you you've started couple great [41:31] Jack, you you've started couple great companies here. You're kind of startup [41:33] companies here. You're kind of startup [41:33] companies here. You're kind of startup founder. [41:35] founder. [41:35] founder. Scale-up CEO. Uh Brian, he he he was uh [41:38] Scale-up CEO. Uh Brian, he he he was uh [41:38] Scale-up CEO. Uh Brian, he he he was uh the only person to have founded two [41:40] the only person to have founded two [41:40] the only person to have founded two companies that made it into the S&P 500. [41:42] companies that made it into the S&P 500. [41:42] companies that made it into the S&P 500. >> amazing. And the only person to have [41:44] >> amazing. And the only person to have [41:44] >> amazing. And the only person to have been simultaneously CEO of two public [41:48] been simultaneously CEO of two public [41:48] been simultaneously CEO of two public companies. Okay, Jack. Just for the [41:50] companies. Okay, Jack. Just for the [41:50] companies. Okay, Jack. Just for the record. Then this [41:51] record. Then this [41:51] record. Then this >> Which should not be should not be a goal [41:52] >> Which should not be should not be a goal [41:52] >> Which should not be should not be a goal for anyone, by the [41:53] for anyone, by the [41:53] for anyone, by the >> [laughter] [41:54] >> [laughter] [41:54] >> [laughter] >> Recommend he CEO of two companies? [41:57] >> Recommend he CEO of two companies? [41:57] >> Recommend he CEO of two companies? Is it ever a good idea? [41:59] Is it ever a good idea? [41:59] Is it ever a good idea? Not public companies. Yeah. Private, [42:01] Not public companies. Yeah. Private, [42:01] Not public companies. Yeah. Private, maybe. Private private I would I would I [42:03] maybe. Private private I would I would I [42:03] maybe. Private private I would I would I I think there's probably going to be [42:05] I think there's probably going to be [42:05] I think there's probably going to be more of a trend where [42:07] more of a trend where [42:07] more of a trend where people are leading multiple companies [42:08] people are leading multiple companies [42:08] people are leading multiple companies that are private, but public companies [42:11] that are private, but public companies [42:11] that are private, but public companies like I should be like an anti-goal. It's [42:13] like I should be like an anti-goal. It's [42:13] like I should be like an anti-goal. It's an anti-pattern. What can founder CEOs [42:16] an anti-pattern. What can founder CEOs [42:16] an anti-pattern. What can founder CEOs learn from like what did you do right? [42:18] learn from like what did you do right? [42:18] learn from like what did you do right? What did you just get wrong? What advice [42:20] What did you just get wrong? What advice [42:20] What did you just get wrong? What advice do you have for [42:22] do you have for [42:22] do you have for that 100-person company CEO [42:27] Yeah, what do you got? [42:27] Yeah, what do you got? My only regrets in life and and also in [42:30] My only regrets in life and and also in [42:30] My only regrets in life and and also in our in our businesses [42:32] our in our businesses [42:32] our in our businesses um are where I [42:35] um are where I [42:35] um are where I decided not to learn something. [42:37] decided not to learn something. [42:37] decided not to learn something. Okay. [42:38] Okay. [42:38] Okay. Because I like I I embrace all of our [42:40] Because I like I I embrace all of our [42:40] Because I like I I embrace all of our mistakes and all of the bad decisions we [42:42] mistakes and all of the bad decisions we [42:42] mistakes and all of the bad decisions we made, but like if I'm not learning from [42:44] made, but like if I'm not learning from [42:44] made, but like if I'm not learning from that uh actively learning from it, like [42:47] that uh actively learning from it, like [42:47] that uh actively learning from it, like that's that's what I regret. [42:49] that's that's what I regret. [42:49] that's that's what I regret. And [42:50] And [42:50] And um [42:52] um [42:52] um you know, in in in in probably the worst [42:55] you know, in in in in probably the worst [42:55] you know, in in in in probably the worst case [42:56] case [42:56] case in any of these companies um [42:59] in any of these companies um [42:59] in any of these companies um like just delegating way too much. Yeah. [43:01] like just delegating way too much. Yeah. [43:02] like just delegating way too much. Yeah. Um especially especially within Block [43:03] Um especially especially within Block [43:03] Um especially especially within Block because like I wanted to set a structure [43:05] because like I wanted to set a structure [43:06] because like I wanted to set a structure where we had multiple CEOs in this [43:08] where we had multiple CEOs in this [43:08] where we had multiple CEOs in this company, but I realized, "Oh man, we're [43:10] company, but I realized, "Oh man, we're [43:10] company, but I realized, "Oh man, we're we're just building like a holding [43:11] we're just building like a holding [43:11] we're just building like a holding company now." Yeah. And like we got we [43:13] company now." Yeah. And like we got we [43:13] company now." Yeah. And like we got we got like, you know, the CEO over here [43:14] got like, you know, the CEO over here [43:15] got like, you know, the CEO over here for Square and CEO over here for Cash [43:16] for Square and CEO over here for Cash [43:16] for Square and CEO over here for Cash App and [43:17] App and [43:18] App and like the value of our company is not [43:19] like the value of our company is not [43:19] like the value of our company is not like these [43:20] like these [43:20] like these you know, unrelated things that are [43:22] you know, unrelated things that are [43:22] you know, unrelated things that are growing at different clips. It's how do [43:25] growing at different clips. It's how do [43:26] growing at different clips. It's how do we bring them together and like, you [43:27] we bring them together and like, you [43:27] we bring them together and like, you know, [43:28] know, [43:28] know, really, you know, um [43:30] really, you know, um [43:30] really, you know, um challenge the whole financial network in [43:32] challenge the whole financial network in [43:32] challenge the whole financial network in entirely because we have we both sides [43:34] entirely because we have we both sides [43:34] entirely because we have we both sides of the counter. So like [43:36] of the counter. So like [43:36] of the counter. So like why aren't we structured that way? Mhm. [43:38] why aren't we structured that way? Mhm. [43:38] why aren't we structured that way? Mhm. And that I think led to [43:41] And that I think led to [43:41] And that I think led to just very differing cultures and values [43:45] just very differing cultures and values [43:45] just very differing cultures and values and execution levels and [43:47] and execution levels and [43:47] and execution levels and um [43:48] um [43:48] um that was a mess. So I I think the the [43:50] that was a mess. So I I think the the [43:50] that was a mess. So I I think the the one [43:51] one [43:51] one thing that I I probably consistently [43:54] thing that I I probably consistently [43:54] thing that I I probably consistently would have corrected would be just [43:57] would have corrected would be just [43:57] would have corrected would be just delegating too much, you know, too too [44:00] delegating too much, you know, too too [44:00] delegating too much, you know, too too uh [44:01] uh [44:01] uh too much of that and I didn't learn that [44:03] too much of that and I didn't learn that [44:03] too much of that and I didn't learn that fast enough. Like that's that's the [44:05] fast enough. Like that's that's the [44:05] fast enough. Like that's that's the regret is I didn't choose to to learn [44:08] regret is I didn't choose to to learn [44:08] regret is I didn't choose to to learn from that fast enough. [44:09] from that fast enough. [44:09] from that fast enough. Um [44:11] Um [44:11] Um but when you have your whole your whole [44:13] but when you have your whole your whole [44:13] but when you have your whole your whole your entire company is legible, it's a [44:15] your entire company is legible, it's a [44:15] your entire company is legible, it's a very different equation. Mhm. Um [44:18] very different equation. Mhm. Um [44:18] very different equation. Mhm. Um and [44:19] and [44:19] and I think my regrets going forward if I [44:22] I think my regrets going forward if I [44:22] I think my regrets going forward if I were to predict them would be like am I [44:24] were to predict them would be like am I [44:24] were to predict them would be like am I actually putting enough [44:26] actually putting enough [44:26] actually putting enough entropy into the system like enough of [44:28] entropy into the system like enough of [44:28] entropy into the system like enough of the intent into the system [44:30] the intent into the system [44:30] the intent into the system to actually keep us relevant going [44:32] to actually keep us relevant going [44:32] to actually keep us relevant going forward. Um [44:34] forward. Um [44:34] forward. Um and and that's hence the shift. Like I I [44:37] and and that's hence the shift. Like I I [44:37] and and that's hence the shift. Like I I I can't imagine doing anything bigger [44:39] I can't imagine doing anything bigger [44:39] I can't imagine doing anything bigger than [44:40] than [44:40] than rebuilding our company as an [44:41] rebuilding our company as an [44:41] rebuilding our company as an intelligence [44:43] intelligence [44:43] intelligence um [44:44] um [44:44] um or more correct uh given where where [44:46] or more correct uh given where where [44:46] or more correct uh given where where everything is trending. [44:48] everything is trending. [44:48] everything is trending. So [44:49] So [44:49] So it just it feels like I have to [44:53] it just it feels like I have to [44:53] it just it feels like I have to constantly build [44:54] constantly build [44:54] constantly build uh and constantly learn from whatever [44:57] uh and constantly learn from whatever [44:57] uh and constantly learn from whatever we're putting out there in order for our [44:59] we're putting out there in order for our [44:59] we're putting out there in order for our us to stay relevant um going forward. [45:02] us to stay relevant um going forward. [45:02] us to stay relevant um going forward. So there's one anecdote that came up [45:04] So there's one anecdote that came up [45:04] So there's one anecdote that came up Jack last week, which is how different [45:06] Jack last week, which is how different [45:06] Jack last week, which is how different meetings are today. They're obviously [45:08] meetings are today. They're obviously [45:08] meetings are today. They're obviously Maybe you can talk about how frequent [45:10] Maybe you can talk about how frequent [45:10] Maybe you can talk about how frequent meetings are taking place now. [45:12] meetings are taking place now. [45:12] meetings are taking place now. And what's the color? What what are the [45:14] And what's the color? What what are the [45:14] And what's the color? What what are the nature of the meetings today versus what [45:16] nature of the meetings today versus what [45:16] nature of the meetings today versus what they were a year ago? Well, I mean just [45:18] they were a year ago? Well, I mean just [45:18] they were a year ago? Well, I mean just two months ago uh every meeting that we [45:21] two months ago uh every meeting that we [45:21] two months ago uh every meeting that we would have with a company I mean you you [45:23] would have with a company I mean you you [45:23] would have with a company I mean you you have this Brian like [45:25] have this Brian like [45:25] have this Brian like you see a presentation or Google Doc and [45:28] you see a presentation or Google Doc and [45:28] you see a presentation or Google Doc and we go through it. Yeah. [45:30] we go through it. Yeah. [45:30] we go through it. Yeah. Now um everyone is bringing a prototype [45:32] Now um everyone is bringing a prototype [45:33] Now um everyone is bringing a prototype that they built. Yeah. Which is pretty [45:35] that they built. Yeah. Which is pretty [45:35] that they built. Yeah. Which is pretty amazing. And like it's either simulated [45:38] amazing. And like it's either simulated [45:38] amazing. And like it's either simulated data or real data. [45:39] data or real data. [45:39] data or real data. But it's a cut on [45:42] But it's a cut on [45:42] But it's a cut on their work in a way that's far more um [45:46] their work in a way that's far more um [45:46] their work in a way that's far more um has far more depth and and realism [45:49] has far more depth and and realism [45:49] has far more depth and and realism than we could ever get from a slide [45:50] than we could ever get from a slide [45:51] than we could ever get from a slide deck. [45:52] deck. [45:52] deck. And because they can actually modify it [45:53] And because they can actually modify it [45:53] And because they can actually modify it in real time, like we can have a [45:55] in real time, like we can have a [45:56] in real time, like we can have a conversation around like what they're [45:57] conversation around like what they're [45:57] conversation around like what they're actually building in real time. Mhm. Um [46:00] actually building in real time. Mhm. Um [46:00] actually building in real time. Mhm. Um so like the the breadth that we get to [46:01] so like the the breadth that we get to [46:01] so like the the breadth that we get to explore is suddenly in incredible. And [46:04] explore is suddenly in incredible. And [46:05] explore is suddenly in incredible. And that allows us to like really, again, it [46:07] that allows us to like really, again, it [46:07] that allows us to like really, again, it goes back to judgment. Like which thread [46:08] goes back to judgment. Like which thread [46:08] goes back to judgment. Like which thread are we pulling on this now? Because we [46:10] are we pulling on this now? Because we [46:10] are we pulling on this now? Because we can see like everything in the [46:11] can see like everything in the [46:11] can see like everything in the horizontal. [46:13] horizontal. [46:13] horizontal. Where do we want to go like deep? And [46:15] Where do we want to go like deep? And [46:15] Where do we want to go like deep? And like what what is the right path? [46:17] like what what is the right path? [46:17] like what what is the right path? And and the cost of like being wrong on [46:19] And and the cost of like being wrong on [46:19] And and the cost of like being wrong on that path and going back up the tree and [46:21] that path and going back up the tree and [46:21] that path and going back up the tree and going down another path is getting [46:23] going down another path is getting [46:23] going down another path is getting closer and closer to zero because the [46:25] closer and closer to zero because the [46:25] closer and closer to zero because the tools can explore the path so quickly [46:27] tools can explore the path so quickly [46:27] tools can explore the path so quickly and then also we can go down them much [46:30] and then also we can go down them much [46:30] and then also we can go down them much much faster. [46:31] much faster. [46:31] much faster. I I I I completely agree with you. Like [46:34] I I I I completely agree with you. Like [46:34] I I I I completely agree with you. Like a lot of times in the past history what [46:36] a lot of times in the past history what [46:36] a lot of times in the past history what worked was when we were doing a lot of [46:37] worked was when we were doing a lot of [46:37] worked was when we were doing a lot of different stuff and we were distracted. [46:39] different stuff and we were distracted. [46:39] different stuff and we were distracted. It's like let's just get focused and [46:40] It's like let's just get focused and [46:40] It's like let's just get focused and then we made progress. [46:42] then we made progress. [46:42] then we made progress. I see the startups these days doing more [46:44] I see the startups these days doing more [46:44] I see the startups these days doing more things in parallel and just being more [46:46] things in parallel and just being more [46:46] things in parallel and just being more productive and getting more done. And I [46:49] productive and getting more done. And I [46:49] productive and getting more done. And I used to preach focus. I don't preach it [46:51] used to preach focus. I don't preach it [46:51] used to preach focus. I don't preach it as much as I do. What do you ever have [46:53] as much as I do. What do you ever have [46:53] as much as I do. What do you ever have either of you have a reaction to that? [46:56] either of you have a reaction to that? [46:56] either of you have a reaction to that? Yeah, it's uh I think it's [46:59] Yeah, it's uh I think it's [46:59] Yeah, it's uh I think it's I think it's having a wider perspective [47:01] I think it's having a wider perspective [47:01] I think it's having a wider perspective to start and then [47:07] like because in in the past uh if we [47:07] like because in in the past uh if we were to explore different paths [47:10] were to explore different paths [47:10] were to explore different paths like it would be a [47:11] like it would be a [47:11] like it would be a uh you know, three it'd be a very costly [47:13] uh you know, three it'd be a very costly [47:13] uh you know, three it'd be a very costly exercise, especially with in hardware [47:15] exercise, especially with in hardware [47:15] exercise, especially with in hardware for instance. Take you a long time to [47:17] for instance. Take you a long time to [47:17] for instance. Take you a long time to build that prototype. But today we can [47:18] build that prototype. But today we can [47:18] build that prototype. But today we can do it in an hour. Yeah. And then um [47:22] do it in an hour. Yeah. And then um [47:22] do it in an hour. Yeah. And then um so I I do encourage more exploration. [47:25] so I I do encourage more exploration. [47:25] so I I do encourage more exploration. But I think focus on getting the the [47:27] But I think focus on getting the the [47:27] But I think focus on getting the the details right when we do choose that [47:29] details right when we do choose that [47:29] details right when we do choose that path and like it's the 80/20 percent [47:31] path and like it's the 80/20 percent [47:31] path and like it's the 80/20 percent thing, which is like [47:32] thing, which is like [47:32] thing, which is like you know, these tools will build about [47:34] you know, these tools will build about [47:34] you know, these tools will build about 80% of what where we need to go. Yeah. [47:36] 80% of what where we need to go. Yeah. [47:36] 80% of what where we need to go. Yeah. And then that last 20% is going to be a [47:39] And then that last 20% is going to be a [47:39] And then that last 20% is going to be a function of like how good our [47:40] function of like how good our [47:40] function of like how good our creativity, how good our taste is, how [47:41] creativity, how good our taste is, how [47:41] creativity, how good our taste is, how good our judgment is. Yeah. And um [47:44] good our judgment is. Yeah. And um [47:44] good our judgment is. Yeah. And um and just constantly pushing these these [47:46] and just constantly pushing these these [47:46] and just constantly pushing these these models to to doing something they [47:48] models to to doing something they [47:48] models to to doing something they weren't they weren't we didn't think [47:49] weren't they weren't we didn't think [47:49] weren't they weren't we didn't think they were capable of. And that's where I [47:51] they were capable of. And that's where I [47:51] they were capable of. And that's where I think the magic still happens and where [47:53] think the magic still happens and where [47:53] think the magic still happens and where where I think the [47:54] where I think the [47:54] where I think the the focus still [47:56] the focus still [47:56] the focus still comes to bear. Um [47:57] comes to bear. Um [47:57] comes to bear. Um because at at the end of the day you [47:59] because at at the end of the day you [47:59] because at at the end of the day you have to [48:00] have to [48:00] have to right now you have to pick something to [48:01] right now you have to pick something to [48:01] right now you have to pick something to put out there [48:02] put out there [48:02] put out there because we do have a roadmap. But when [48:04] because we do have a roadmap. But when [48:04] because we do have a roadmap. But when you remove that limiting factor as I [48:05] you remove that limiting factor as I [48:05] you remove that limiting factor as I said and you focus on building the four [48:08] said and you focus on building the four [48:08] said and you focus on building the four things instead like, you know, the [48:09] things instead like, you know, the [48:09] things instead like, you know, the capabilities, the interface, proactive [48:11] capabilities, the interface, proactive [48:11] capabilities, the interface, proactive intelligence, and the world model, then, [48:13] intelligence, and the world model, then, [48:13] intelligence, and the world model, then, you know, it just changes everything. So [48:15] you know, it just changes everything. So [48:15] you know, it just changes everything. So I don't even know if the question [48:16] I don't even know if the question [48:16] I don't even know if the question matters anymore. Yeah. A lot of CEOs are [48:19] matters anymore. Yeah. A lot of CEOs are [48:19] matters anymore. Yeah. A lot of CEOs are struggling with the second acts. And [48:21] struggling with the second acts. And [48:21] struggling with the second acts. And you've done amazing second act work at [48:24] you've done amazing second act work at [48:24] you've done amazing second act work at Block. You did interesting stuff with [48:26] Block. You did interesting stuff with [48:26] Block. You did interesting stuff with Blue Sky, interesting stuff with Spiral. [48:28] Blue Sky, interesting stuff with Spiral. [48:28] Blue Sky, interesting stuff with Spiral. Advice to CEOs trying to figure that [48:29] Advice to CEOs trying to figure that [48:29] Advice to CEOs trying to figure that second act out. Uh I don't know if I [48:32] second act out. Uh I don't know if I [48:32] second act out. Uh I don't know if I ever considered it to be like a second [48:34] ever considered it to be like a second [48:34] ever considered it to be like a second act. It's just something that like we [48:35] act. It's just something that like we [48:35] act. It's just something that like we had I wanted to do and I had to do and [48:37] had I wanted to do and I had to do and [48:37] had I wanted to do and I had to do and it was interesting. Are you building [48:39] it was interesting. Are you building [48:39] it was interesting. Are you building something new? It's distracting to the [48:41] something new? It's distracting to the [48:41] something new? It's distracting to the org and like how do you resource it? [48:44] org and like how do you resource it? [48:44] org and like how do you resource it? Well, Cash App was like that in the [48:45] Well, Cash App was like that in the [48:45] Well, Cash App was like that in the early days. Yeah. Well, that that's [48:47] early days. Yeah. Well, that that's [48:47] early days. Yeah. Well, that that's that's a good point. Like so I think [48:49] that's a good point. Like so I think [48:49] that's a good point. Like so I think every leader has to be comfortable with [48:52] every leader has to be comfortable with [48:52] every leader has to be comfortable with losing credibility with [48:54] losing credibility with [48:54] losing credibility with their stakeholders. That's the point. In [48:56] their stakeholders. That's the point. In [48:56] their stakeholders. That's the point. In order to do something interesting like [48:57] order to do something interesting like [48:57] order to do something interesting like when when we we had multiple moments and [49:00] when when we we had multiple moments and [49:00] when when we we had multiple moments and these are the founding moments that [49:02] these are the founding moments that [49:02] these are the founding moments that um I think are are critical for a [49:04] um I think are are critical for a [49:04] um I think are are critical for a company, but like [49:06] company, but like [49:06] company, but like we were we started with our card reader. [49:09] we were we started with our card reader. [49:09] we were we started with our card reader. Eventually we determined that, "Hey, we [49:10] Eventually we determined that, "Hey, we [49:10] Eventually we determined that, "Hey, we should probably lend money to sellers [49:12] should probably lend money to sellers [49:12] should probably lend money to sellers because like [49:14] because like [49:14] because like no seller wants to accept credit cards. [49:15] no seller wants to accept credit cards. [49:15] no seller wants to accept credit cards. What they want is to um get more sales. [49:18] What they want is to um get more sales. [49:18] What they want is to um get more sales. And what helps them get more sales? More [49:20] And what helps them get more sales? More [49:20] And what helps them get more sales? More capital to deploy into their business." [49:22] capital to deploy into their business." [49:22] capital to deploy into their business." When we first brought it to our board, [49:24] When we first brought it to our board, [49:24] When we first brought it to our board, um [49:25] um [49:25] um our board said, "Absolutely no. Like [49:27] our board said, "Absolutely no. Like [49:27] our board said, "Absolutely no. Like you're not getting in the lending [49:28] you're not getting in the lending [49:28] you're not getting in the lending business. Like it's ridiculous." [49:30] business. Like it's ridiculous." [49:31] business. Like it's ridiculous." And we lost I lost some credibility with [49:33] And we lost I lost some credibility with [49:33] And we lost I lost some credibility with with um [49:35] with um [49:35] with um you know, the board and our population [49:36] you know, the board and our population [49:36] you know, the board and our population cuz we wanted to do this and we kept [49:38] cuz we wanted to do this and we kept [49:38] cuz we wanted to do this and we kept pushing it and pushing it and eventually [49:39] pushing it and pushing it and eventually [49:39] pushing it and pushing it and eventually they said yes. Cash App was the same [49:41] they said yes. Cash App was the same [49:41] they said yes. Cash App was the same thing where we were about merchants. Our [49:44] thing where we were about merchants. Our [49:44] thing where we were about merchants. Our mission was make commerce easy. Mhm. And [49:47] mission was make commerce easy. Mhm. And [49:47] mission was make commerce easy. Mhm. And we built this thing that allowed [49:48] we built this thing that allowed [49:48] we built this thing that allowed effortless peer-to-peer as effortless as [49:51] effortless peer-to-peer as effortless as [49:51] effortless peer-to-peer as effortless as just, you know, sending an email to [49:53] just, you know, sending an email to [49:53] just, you know, sending an email to start. And [49:55] start. And [49:55] start. And our our our our COO at the time was [49:59] our our our our COO at the time was [49:59] our our our our COO at the time was on the founding team of PayPal, Roelof [50:02] on the founding team of PayPal, Roelof [50:02] on the founding team of PayPal, Roelof or Keith Rabois. Yeah. And even he said [50:05] or Keith Rabois. Yeah. And even he said [50:05] or Keith Rabois. Yeah. And even he said no and he said like, you know, this is a [50:07] no and he said like, you know, this is a [50:07] no and he said like, you know, this is a solved problem. [50:09] solved problem. [50:09] solved problem. Everyone in the company hated Cash App. [50:10] Everyone in the company hated Cash App. [50:10] Everyone in the company hated Cash App. It was a team of eight people. [50:12] It was a team of eight people. [50:12] It was a team of eight people. And hated it for [50:15] And hated it for [50:15] And hated it for two to three years that we we mentioned [50:17] two to three years that we we mentioned [50:17] two to three years that we we mentioned it less than eight times in our [50:20] it less than eight times in our [50:20] it less than eight times in our S-1 to to go public. Um our investors [50:23] S-1 to to go public. Um our investors [50:23] S-1 to to go public. Um our investors didn't understand it at all. [50:25] didn't understand it at all. [50:25] didn't understand it at all. And every day that I allowed it to [50:28] And every day that I allowed it to [50:28] And every day that I allowed it to persist and defended it, I lost [50:30] persist and defended it, I lost [50:30] persist and defended it, I lost credibility. [50:31] credibility. [50:31] credibility. And I knew that I could earn it back if [50:33] And I knew that I could earn it back if [50:34] And I knew that I could earn it back if it if we saw success there and we did. [50:36] it if we saw success there and we did. [50:36] it if we saw success there and we did. Like we we monetized it and it became [50:39] Like we we monetized it and it became [50:39] Like we we monetized it and it became profitable and, you know, it's now over [50:41] profitable and, you know, it's now over [50:41] profitable and, you know, it's now over half our business and um so it I think [50:44] half our business and um so it I think [50:44] half our business and um so it I think it's getting comfortable with like [50:45] it's getting comfortable with like [50:45] it's getting comfortable with like you're going to lose credibility and if [50:47] you're going to lose credibility and if [50:47] you're going to lose credibility and if you have an understanding of like how to [50:48] you have an understanding of like how to [50:48] you have an understanding of like how to earn that back, [50:50] earn that back, [50:50] earn that back, uh it's okay and you don't have to care [50:52] uh it's okay and you don't have to care [50:52] uh it's okay and you don't have to care about like what what people think if you [50:53] about like what what people think if you [50:53] about like what what people think if you have the principle of why it's important [50:55] have the principle of why it's important [50:55] have the principle of why it's important and why this needs to exist and and [50:58] and why this needs to exist and and [50:58] and why this needs to exist and and you're okay with, yep, people aren't [51:00] you're okay with, yep, people aren't [51:00] you're okay with, yep, people aren't going to trust me for a bit and it's [51:02] going to trust me for a bit and it's [51:02] going to trust me for a bit and it's okay. Um I'm I'm staking part of my [51:05] okay. Um I'm I'm staking part of my [51:05] okay. Um I'm I'm staking part of my reputation on this and this is why I [51:06] reputation on this and this is why I [51:06] reputation on this and this is why I believe it. I think it makes all those [51:08] believe it. I think it makes all those [51:08] believe it. I think it makes all those answers stronger, by the way. I have a a [51:11] answers stronger, by the way. I have a a [51:11] answers stronger, by the way. I have a a weird story for you. When Sequoia was [51:13] weird story for you. When Sequoia was [51:13] weird story for you. When Sequoia was hiring me, they write a memo when [51:15] hiring me, they write a memo when [51:15] hiring me, they write a memo when they're investing in a company or when [51:16] they're investing in a company or when [51:16] they're investing in a company or when they're hiring someone and the memo on [51:18] they're hiring someone and the memo on [51:18] they're hiring someone and the memo on me was one of my strengths was I was [51:20] me was one of my strengths was I was [51:20] me was one of my strengths was I was DGAF, don't give a flock, and one of my [51:23] DGAF, don't give a flock, and one of my [51:23] DGAF, don't give a flock, and one of my weaknesses was I was DGAF, I don't give [51:26] weaknesses was I was DGAF, I don't give [51:26] weaknesses was I was DGAF, I don't give a flock. Um you strike me as someone [51:29] a flock. Um you strike me as someone [51:29] a flock. Um you strike me as someone who's has high DGAF [51:32] who's has high DGAF [51:32] who's has high DGAF and you stick with your convictions for [51:34] and you stick with your convictions for [51:34] and you stick with your convictions for very long periods of time. Founders [51:37] very long periods of time. Founders [51:37] very long periods of time. Founders struggle with that. I struggle with [51:38] struggle with that. I struggle with [51:38] struggle with that. I struggle with that. Advice. [51:40] that. Advice. [51:40] that. Advice. Yeah. [51:41] Yeah. [51:41] Yeah. I would say it wavers for me. Like it it [51:44] I would say it wavers for me. Like it it [51:44] I would say it wavers for me. Like it it it's definitely um [51:45] it's definitely um [51:45] it's definitely um I get a lot of hate, a lot of pushback, [51:47] I get a lot of hate, a lot of pushback, [51:48] I get a lot of hate, a lot of pushback, a lot of challenges like internally, [51:50] a lot of challenges like internally, [51:50] a lot of challenges like internally, externally, um [51:52] externally, um [51:52] externally, um but again, it's uh [51:55] but again, it's uh [51:55] but again, it's uh I I made a I made a decision some time [51:57] I I made a I made a decision some time [51:57] I I made a I made a decision some time ago when I first became CEO of Twitter. [51:59] ago when I first became CEO of Twitter. [51:59] ago when I first became CEO of Twitter. Everyone was telling me I needed a [52:02] Everyone was telling me I needed a [52:02] Everyone was telling me I needed a uh CEO coach. Mhm. And I got the CEO [52:05] uh CEO coach. Mhm. And I got the CEO [52:05] uh CEO coach. Mhm. And I got the CEO coach and he was a great guy, but like I [52:07] coach and he was a great guy, but like I [52:07] coach and he was a great guy, but like I was learning absolutely nothing. Mhm. [52:09] was learning absolutely nothing. Mhm. [52:09] was learning absolutely nothing. Mhm. And it it just reminded me of all these [52:12] And it it just reminded me of all these [52:12] And it it just reminded me of all these times when you put so much emphasis on [52:14] times when you put so much emphasis on [52:14] times when you put so much emphasis on like who's my mentor, who am I learning [52:16] like who's my mentor, who am I learning [52:16] like who's my mentor, who am I learning from, who's my mentor, who am I learning [52:17] from, who's my mentor, who am I learning [52:17] from, who's my mentor, who am I learning from. [52:18] from. [52:18] from. And around that time, I just decided I'm [52:20] And around that time, I just decided I'm [52:20] And around that time, I just decided I'm going to shift my mindset and [52:23] going to shift my mindset and [52:23] going to shift my mindset and every single person I talk with, every [52:25] every single person I talk with, every [52:25] every single person I talk with, every single encounter I have, every single [52:27] single encounter I have, every single [52:27] single encounter I have, every single problem I face, [52:28] problem I face, [52:28] problem I face, that's my mentor. Mhm. To to for it to [52:31] that's my mentor. Mhm. To to for it to [52:32] that's my mentor. Mhm. To to for it to be a mentor, I have to decide that I'm [52:34] be a mentor, I have to decide that I'm [52:34] be a mentor, I have to decide that I'm going to learn something from it. Like [52:35] going to learn something from it. Like [52:35] going to learn something from it. Like every every every encounter I have is [52:38] every every every encounter I have is [52:38] every every every encounter I have is trying to teach me something and what am [52:39] trying to teach me something and what am [52:39] trying to teach me something and what am I trying to learn from it. And just I [52:41] I trying to learn from it. And just I [52:41] I trying to learn from it. And just I would force myself to like write it down [52:43] would force myself to like write it down [52:43] would force myself to like write it down like every day and every encounter and [52:45] like every day and every encounter and [52:45] like every day and every encounter and just like, what did I learn from this? [52:47] just like, what did I learn from this? [52:47] just like, what did I learn from this? And again, my biggest regrets are when I [52:49] And again, my biggest regrets are when I [52:49] And again, my biggest regrets are when I decided not to learn something from it. [52:51] decided not to learn something from it. [52:51] decided not to learn something from it. Because it's likely that I would have [52:53] Because it's likely that I would have [52:53] Because it's likely that I would have repeated it or what not. So even the [52:55] repeated it or what not. So even the [52:55] repeated it or what not. So even the negative feedback um or the credibility [52:58] negative feedback um or the credibility [52:58] negative feedback um or the credibility loss is a is a teaching moment. And it's [53:00] loss is a is a teaching moment. And it's [53:00] loss is a is a teaching moment. And it's just a decision of like, am I learning [53:02] just a decision of like, am I learning [53:02] just a decision of like, am I learning from this or not? And that allows you [53:04] from this or not? And that allows you [53:04] from this or not? And that allows you ownership over it. Like it just like it [53:06] ownership over it. Like it just like it [53:06] ownership over it. Like it just like it gives you agency over all this stuff. [53:08] gives you agency over all this stuff. [53:08] gives you agency over all this stuff. Like, what is this thing trying to tell [53:10] Like, what is this thing trying to tell [53:10] Like, what is this thing trying to tell me right now? Like what am I ignoring? [53:12] me right now? Like what am I ignoring? [53:12] me right now? Like what am I ignoring? What am I being stubborn about? Um [53:15] What am I being stubborn about? Um [53:15] What am I being stubborn about? Um and uh you know, sometimes I I get to [53:17] and uh you know, sometimes I I get to [53:17] and uh you know, sometimes I I get to the right answer, sometimes I don't and [53:19] the right answer, sometimes I don't and [53:19] the right answer, sometimes I don't and I just like continue in my ways and it's [53:22] I just like continue in my ways and it's [53:22] I just like continue in my ways and it's a failure, but [53:23] a failure, but [53:23] a failure, but I just having that mindset [53:26] I just having that mindset [53:26] I just having that mindset instead of having this one mentor in [53:27] instead of having this one mentor in [53:27] instead of having this one mentor in your life, now you have infinite [53:29] your life, now you have infinite [53:29] your life, now you have infinite mentors. It's like, you know, it's [53:31] mentors. It's like, you know, it's [53:31] mentors. It's like, you know, it's it's uh it's just an amazing way to [53:33] it's uh it's just an amazing way to [53:33] it's uh it's just an amazing way to approach life and challenges that that I [53:36] approach life and challenges that that I [53:36] approach life and challenges that that I found. [53:37] found. [53:37] found. You're definitely a learner and talk a [53:38] You're definitely a learner and talk a [53:38] You're definitely a learner and talk a lot about it on other I've seen you talk [53:40] lot about it on other I've seen you talk [53:40] lot about it on other I've seen you talk about it a lot. You're a meditator. [53:43] about it a lot. You're a meditator. [53:43] about it a lot. You're a meditator. Should all CEOs meditate? Um what are [53:47] Should all CEOs meditate? Um what are [53:47] Should all CEOs meditate? Um what are the benefits you get as a CEO? [53:49] the benefits you get as a CEO? [53:49] the benefits you get as a CEO? And what do you take from Marc [53:51] And what do you take from Marc [53:51] And what do you take from Marc Andreessen talking about how he's [53:54] Andreessen talking about how he's [53:54] Andreessen talking about how he's very he's not introspective. I thought [53:56] very he's not introspective. I thought [53:56] very he's not introspective. I thought that was an interesting comment. Like [53:58] that was an interesting comment. Like [53:58] that was an interesting comment. Like talk about in meditation, CEOs, what do [54:00] talk about in meditation, CEOs, what do [54:01] talk about in meditation, CEOs, what do you get from it? [54:02] you get from it? [54:02] you get from it? Yeah. [54:03] Yeah. [54:03] Yeah. Him him saying that he's not [54:04] Him him saying that he's not [54:04] Him him saying that he's not introspective is very introspective, I [54:06] introspective is very introspective, I [54:06] introspective is very introspective, I think. I thought that was interesting. [54:07] think. I thought that was interesting. [54:07] think. I thought that was interesting. Just to be clear. [54:09] Just to be clear. [54:09] Just to be clear. Um [54:09] Um [54:09] Um I don't I didn't get a lot from that, [54:11] I don't I didn't get a lot from that, [54:11] I don't I didn't get a lot from that, but I I do think um [54:14] but I I do think um [54:14] but I I do think um the when people think of meditation, [54:16] the when people think of meditation, [54:16] the when people think of meditation, they think of like this woo-woo like, [54:18] they think of like this woo-woo like, [54:18] they think of like this woo-woo like, you know, person in the desert and uh [54:20] you know, person in the desert and uh [54:20] you know, person in the desert and uh I've been characterized as that and [54:22] I've been characterized as that and [54:22] I've been characterized as that and looking at the clouds and like imagine [54:24] looking at the clouds and like imagine [54:24] looking at the clouds and like imagine the clouds going by and your thoughts [54:25] the clouds going by and your thoughts [54:25] the clouds going by and your thoughts are the clouds and you know, make them [54:27] are the clouds and you know, make them [54:27] are the clouds and you know, make them dissipate. But if you actually get into [54:31] dissipate. But if you actually get into [54:31] dissipate. But if you actually get into like true meditation, it's a very [54:32] like true meditation, it's a very [54:32] like true meditation, it's a very physical thing. Like it's a very [54:35] physical thing. Like it's a very [54:35] physical thing. Like it's a very physical um practice and what you're [54:37] physical um practice and what you're [54:37] physical um practice and what you're doing is you're training your mind to [54:39] doing is you're training your mind to [54:39] doing is you're training your mind to focus on one point. One point. Like the [54:43] focus on one point. One point. Like the [54:43] focus on one point. One point. Like the the meditation retreats I did were 10 [54:44] the meditation retreats I did were 10 [54:44] the meditation retreats I did were 10 days and you spend the first 3 days [54:48] days and you spend the first 3 days [54:48] days and you spend the first 3 days sitting from 4:30 in the morning till [54:50] sitting from 4:30 in the morning till [54:50] sitting from 4:30 in the morning till 9:00 p.m. Yep. focusing on the feeling [54:52] 9:00 p.m. Yep. focusing on the feeling [54:52] 9:00 p.m. Yep. focusing on the feeling of your breath on your upper lip. Yep. [54:54] of your breath on your upper lip. Yep. [54:54] of your breath on your upper lip. Yep. Just that and just the sensation of it. [54:57] Just that and just the sensation of it. [54:57] Just that and just the sensation of it. And what you're training your mind to do [54:58] And what you're training your mind to do [54:58] And what you're training your mind to do is to [54:59] is to [54:59] is to sharpen your focus [55:01] sharpen your focus [55:01] sharpen your focus and then just to observe. Observe the [55:03] and then just to observe. Observe the [55:04] and then just to observe. Observe the sensation without reacting to it from an [55:06] sensation without reacting to it from an [55:06] sensation without reacting to it from an emotional intellectual standpoint. Mhm. [55:09] emotional intellectual standpoint. Mhm. [55:09] emotional intellectual standpoint. Mhm. And then the next 7 days, you go up and [55:11] And then the next 7 days, you go up and [55:11] And then the next 7 days, you go up and down your body and you're scanning for [55:13] down your body and you're scanning for [55:13] down your body and you're scanning for sensations like pain [55:14] sensations like pain [55:15] sensations like pain and you're sitting cross-legged and you [55:17] and you're sitting cross-legged and you [55:17] and you're sitting cross-legged and you can't move for 3 hours at a time. Mhm. [55:19] can't move for 3 hours at a time. Mhm. [55:19] can't move for 3 hours at a time. Mhm. And it's super painful. And you actually [55:21] And it's super painful. And you actually [55:21] And it's super painful. And you actually observe this pain and you're just like [55:24] observe this pain and you're just like [55:24] observe this pain and you're just like you're you're constantly with this [55:25] you're you're constantly with this [55:25] you're you're constantly with this mindset of like, this isn't permanent. [55:27] mindset of like, this isn't permanent. [55:27] mindset of like, this isn't permanent. If I were to stand up, it goes away. [55:29] If I were to stand up, it goes away. [55:29] If I were to stand up, it goes away. Mhm. And it's just that that training [55:31] Mhm. And it's just that that training [55:31] Mhm. And it's just that that training your mind to like recognize everything [55:33] your mind to like recognize everything [55:33] your mind to like recognize everything is impermanent. There's no need to [55:36] is impermanent. There's no need to [55:36] is impermanent. There's no need to suffer or be attached to something [55:38] suffer or be attached to something [55:38] suffer or be attached to something that's going to go away. Mhm. [55:40] that's going to go away. Mhm. [55:40] that's going to go away. Mhm. >> Like you and you're doing it in this [55:41] >> Like you and you're doing it in this [55:41] >> Like you and you're doing it in this very small physical way, [55:43] very small physical way, [55:43] very small physical way, but then you apply that whole concept to [55:45] but then you apply that whole concept to [55:45] but then you apply that whole concept to your [55:45] your [55:46] your to your whole life, every emotion or [55:48] to your whole life, every emotion or [55:48] to your whole life, every emotion or reaction or en- encounter you have. So I [55:52] reaction or en- encounter you have. So I [55:52] reaction or en- encounter you have. So I would recommend it only because it [55:53] would recommend it only because it [55:54] would recommend it only because it sharpens your focus, [55:55] sharpens your focus, [55:55] sharpens your focus, it sharpens your power of observation [55:57] it sharpens your power of observation [55:57] it sharpens your power of observation and it diminishes your instinct to [56:01] and it diminishes your instinct to [56:01] and it diminishes your instinct to immediately react to things. And to [56:03] immediately react to things. And to [56:03] immediately react to things. And to actually see them for what they are and [56:05] actually see them for what they are and [56:05] actually see them for what they are and then choose how you want to act with [56:07] then choose how you want to act with [56:07] then choose how you want to act with that information. Mhm. So if you think [56:09] that information. Mhm. So if you think [56:09] that information. Mhm. So if you think about it as like a woo-woo [56:12] about it as like a woo-woo [56:12] about it as like a woo-woo you know, head in the clouds, then [56:13] you know, head in the clouds, then [56:13] you know, head in the clouds, then that's what you're going to get from it. [56:14] that's what you're going to get from it. [56:14] that's what you're going to get from it. If you see it as a physical practice to [56:16] If you see it as a physical practice to [56:17] If you see it as a physical practice to make your mind stronger, Mhm. you'll get [56:18] make your mind stronger, Mhm. you'll get [56:19] make your mind stronger, Mhm. you'll get that and and that's that's what I see [56:20] that and and that's that's what I see [56:20] that and and that's that's what I see and that's what you practice. Mhm. [56:23] and that's what you practice. Mhm. [56:23] and that's what you practice. Mhm. Let me just close on I start with you, [56:25] Let me just close on I start with you, [56:25] Let me just close on I start with you, Roelof. There's some timeless qualities [56:28] Roelof. There's some timeless qualities [56:28] Roelof. There's some timeless qualities of CEOs [56:30] of CEOs [56:30] of CEOs um [56:32] um [56:32] um that last the test of time and Roelof, [56:36] that last the test of time and Roelof, [56:36] that last the test of time and Roelof, you're involved with YouTube, Instagram, [56:37] you're involved with YouTube, Instagram, [56:37] you're involved with YouTube, Instagram, Block, [ __ ] Unity. What are timeless [56:40] Block, [ __ ] Unity. What are timeless [56:40] Block, [ __ ] Unity. What are timeless CEO qualities? [56:42] CEO qualities? [56:42] CEO qualities? And what is new? Like what are the new [56:44] And what is new? Like what are the new [56:44] And what is new? Like what are the new qualities CEOs need today? [56:52] I like acronyms, so I came up with one [56:52] I like acronyms, so I came up with one which is um ALE. [56:54] which is um ALE. [56:54] which is um ALE. Mhm. A L E. Which is sort of not a very [56:56] Mhm. A L E. Which is sort of not a very [56:56] Mhm. A L E. Which is sort of not a very pleasant drink for most people, but [56:58] pleasant drink for most people, but [56:58] pleasant drink for most people, but anyway, um authenticity, logic and [57:01] anyway, um authenticity, logic and [57:01] anyway, um authenticity, logic and empathy. [57:03] empathy. [57:03] empathy. So authenticity, I mean, are you, [57:05] So authenticity, I mean, are you, [57:05] So authenticity, I mean, are you, you know, are are you pretentious? Are [57:06] you know, are are you pretentious? Are [57:06] you know, are are you pretentious? Are you who you [57:08] you who you [57:08] you who you Do people see who you really are? Do you [57:10] Do people see who you really are? Do you [57:10] Do people see who you really are? Do you behave authentically? [57:12] behave authentically? [57:12] behave authentically? Are you logical? Are you predictable? [57:13] Are you logical? Are you predictable? [57:13] Are you logical? Are you predictable? Are you rational? Or do you fly off the [57:15] Are you rational? Or do you fly off the [57:15] Are you rational? Or do you fly off the handle? [57:16] handle? [57:16] handle? Uh and are you empathetic? Do you really [57:18] Uh and are you empathetic? Do you really [57:18] Uh and are you empathetic? Do you really care about the team that you manage? Do [57:19] care about the team that you manage? Do [57:19] care about the team that you manage? Do you really care about the business? [57:21] you really care about the business? [57:21] you really care about the business? >> Weird. Uh or you know, sort of opposite [57:23] >> Weird. Uh or you know, sort of opposite [57:23] >> Weird. Uh or you know, sort of opposite of being a sociopath, perhaps, but deep [57:25] of being a sociopath, perhaps, but deep [57:25] of being a sociopath, perhaps, but deep empathy. So I think of those three [57:27] empathy. So I think of those three [57:27] empathy. So I think of those three qualities, I mean, there are many more [57:28] qualities, I mean, there are many more [57:28] qualities, I mean, there are many more that one could list, but you know, [57:30] that one could list, but you know, [57:31] that one could list, but you know, I think it's [57:31] I think it's [57:31] I think it's just hard to keep it in your mind. So [57:33] just hard to keep it in your mind. So [57:33] just hard to keep it in your mind. So for me, those are the three most [57:34] for me, those are the three most [57:34] for me, those are the three most important, authenticity, logic and [57:35] important, authenticity, logic and [57:35] important, authenticity, logic and empathy. [57:37] empathy. [57:37] empathy. I think when it comes to dealing with [57:39] I think when it comes to dealing with [57:39] I think when it comes to dealing with humans, most of those things stay the [57:41] humans, most of those things stay the [57:41] humans, most of those things stay the same. [57:42] same. [57:42] same. And I remember how many of us thought [57:44] And I remember how many of us thought [57:44] And I remember how many of us thought the world was going to be so different [57:46] the world was going to be so different [57:46] the world was going to be so different in the midst of COVID and I listened to [57:48] in the midst of COVID and I listened to [57:48] in the midst of COVID and I listened to a talk that Steven Pinker gave and he [57:50] a talk that Steven Pinker gave and he [57:50] a talk that Steven Pinker gave and he talked about how [57:51] talked about how [57:52] talked about how probably things are going to go back [57:53] probably things are going to go back [57:53] probably things are going to go back largely the way they were before. Mhm. [57:55] largely the way they were before. Mhm. [57:55] largely the way they were before. Mhm. But I think the same is true here. Yes, [57:58] But I think the same is true here. Yes, [57:58] But I think the same is true here. Yes, companies are being built differently. [57:59] companies are being built differently. [57:59] companies are being built differently. Yes, AI is absolutely transformational. [58:01] Yes, AI is absolutely transformational. [58:01] Yes, AI is absolutely transformational. It's going to upend so many industries. [58:03] It's going to upend so many industries. [58:03] It's going to upend so many industries. I think it's the biggest drainer of [58:05] I think it's the biggest drainer of [58:05] I think it's the biggest drainer of moats companies have ever seen. [58:08] moats companies have ever seen. [58:08] moats companies have ever seen. But some of the, you know, basics of [58:10] But some of the, you know, basics of [58:10] But some of the, you know, basics of dealing with people uh and leading [58:12] dealing with people uh and leading [58:12] dealing with people uh and leading remain true. [58:13] remain true. [58:13] remain true. >> Mhm. The one I would say is probably [58:15] >> Mhm. The one I would say is probably [58:15] >> Mhm. The one I would say is probably different is the pace of of change is so [58:19] different is the pace of of change is so [58:19] different is the pace of of change is so fast. [58:20] fast. [58:20] fast. >> Mhm. [58:20] >> Mhm. [58:20] >> Mhm. And I think, you know, kudos again to [58:22] And I think, you know, kudos again to [58:22] And I think, you know, kudos again to Jack for the the the speed with which [58:24] Jack for the the the speed with which [58:25] Jack for the the the speed with which we're moving on this decision cuz it [58:27] we're moving on this decision cuz it [58:27] we're moving on this decision cuz it would have been easy to dither for 6 or [58:29] would have been easy to dither for 6 or [58:29] would have been easy to dither for 6 or 12 months on this decision. Mhm. So [58:31] 12 months on this decision. Mhm. So [58:31] 12 months on this decision. Mhm. So you've got to move fast. Mhm. Jack, [58:33] you've got to move fast. Mhm. Jack, [58:33] you've got to move fast. Mhm. Jack, thoughts on that? [58:34] thoughts on that? [58:34] thoughts on that? Like you're you've hired some amazing [58:36] Like you're you've hired some amazing [58:36] Like you're you've hired some amazing people in your career that have gone on [58:37] people in your career that have gone on [58:37] people in your career that have gone on to do some amazing stuff. [58:39] to do some amazing stuff. [58:39] to do some amazing stuff. What do you What do you think? And [58:41] What do you What do you think? And [58:41] What do you What do you think? And what's changed What's What's timeless? [58:42] what's changed What's What's timeless? [58:42] what's changed What's What's timeless? What's changed? [58:44] What's changed? [58:44] What's changed? I value someone who's [58:47] I value someone who's [58:47] I value someone who's able to reprogram their [58:50] able to reprogram their [58:50] able to reprogram their mind and assumptions constantly. [58:52] mind and assumptions constantly. [58:52] mind and assumptions constantly. >> Mhm. Um I mean, this is stated a lot, [58:55] >> Mhm. Um I mean, this is stated a lot, [58:55] >> Mhm. Um I mean, this is stated a lot, but just being able to question your own [58:57] but just being able to question your own [58:57] but just being able to question your own requirements, your own assumptions and [58:58] requirements, your own assumptions and [58:58] requirements, your own assumptions and your own decisions Mhm. or how rigid you [59:01] your own decisions Mhm. or how rigid you [59:01] your own decisions Mhm. or how rigid you are towards your past, the company's [59:04] are towards your past, the company's [59:04] are towards your past, the company's past and sacred cows or [59:06] past and sacred cows or [59:06] past and sacred cows or what the competition is doing. Mhm. Um [59:09] what the competition is doing. Mhm. Um [59:09] what the competition is doing. Mhm. Um it's just, you know, being able to like [59:12] it's just, you know, being able to like [59:12] it's just, you know, being able to like go wild for a bit and then also being [59:14] go wild for a bit and then also being [59:14] go wild for a bit and then also being able to [59:15] able to [59:15] able to get that entire corpus down to something [59:18] get that entire corpus down to something [59:18] get that entire corpus down to something that's actually manageable and that can [59:20] that's actually manageable and that can [59:20] that's actually manageable and that can be articulated in a way that other [59:21] be articulated in a way that other [59:21] be articulated in a way that other people understand. [59:23] people understand. [59:23] people understand. I think that's extremely valuable. Has [59:25] I think that's extremely valuable. Has [59:25] I think that's extremely valuable. Has it been valuable or is more valuable cuz [59:28] it been valuable or is more valuable cuz [59:28] it been valuable or is more valuable cuz things are moving so fast right now? I [59:29] things are moving so fast right now? I [59:29] things are moving so fast right now? I think it's more valuable. Like it being [59:31] think it's more valuable. Like it being [59:31] think it's more valuable. Like it being able Yeah, I mean, [59:33] able Yeah, I mean, [59:33] able Yeah, I mean, I think it's going to be so easy to go [59:34] I think it's going to be so easy to go [59:34] I think it's going to be so easy to go along with the momentum of what's [59:36] along with the momentum of what's [59:36] along with the momentum of what's happening around us today. [59:39] happening around us today. [59:39] happening around us today. And it's going to be increasingly [59:42] And it's going to be increasingly [59:42] And it's going to be increasingly hard to break free of that momentum [59:44] hard to break free of that momentum [59:44] hard to break free of that momentum given what what the tools do and like [59:47] given what what the tools do and like [59:47] given what what the tools do and like this is the way we do things and [59:49] this is the way we do things and [59:49] this is the way we do things and I think people will um [59:51] I think people will um [59:51] I think people will um because we're offloading some of our [59:52] because we're offloading some of our [59:52] because we're offloading some of our intelligence to intelligences Yeah. and [59:56] intelligence to intelligences Yeah. and [59:56] intelligence to intelligences Yeah. and people will go along with uh more likely [59:59] people will go along with uh more likely [59:59] people will go along with uh more likely to to default to what these things are [60:01] to to default to what these things are [60:01] to to default to what these things are suggesting Mhm. rather than seeing them [60:04] suggesting Mhm. rather than seeing them [60:04] suggesting Mhm. rather than seeing them as an input. Like I I think we're we're [60:06] as an input. Like I I think we're we're [60:06] as an input. Like I I think we're we're still in a mode where most people are [60:08] still in a mode where most people are [60:08] still in a mode where most people are seeing all what the intelligences do [60:10] seeing all what the intelligences do [60:10] seeing all what the intelligences do these tools do as output rather than [60:12] these tools do as output rather than [60:12] these tools do as output rather than better input to create better output [60:13] better input to create better output [60:13] better input to create better output ourselves. Mhm. And I like I think [60:15] ourselves. Mhm. And I like I think [60:15] ourselves. Mhm. And I like I think that's important to me like when I was [60:17] that's important to me like when I was [60:17] that's important to me like when I was doing that like every day 3 hours like [60:20] doing that like every day 3 hours like [60:20] doing that like every day 3 hours like this is input to me. Mhm. And it's now [60:23] this is input to me. Mhm. And it's now [60:23] this is input to me. Mhm. And it's now up to me to like really [60:25] up to me to like really [60:25] up to me to like really um [60:26] um [60:26] um make better output from like all this [60:28] make better output from like all this [60:28] make better output from like all this new input that I have and like the [60:29] new input that I have and like the [60:29] new input that I have and like the ability to just take all this and see it [60:31] ability to just take all this and see it [60:32] ability to just take all this and see it at once it is just phenomenal. Mhm. So [60:34] at once it is just phenomenal. Mhm. So [60:34] at once it is just phenomenal. Mhm. So having someone who's able to discern [60:37] having someone who's able to discern [60:37] having someone who's able to discern signal from noise and [60:39] signal from noise and [60:39] signal from noise and cool from not relevant, you know, like [60:43] cool from not relevant, you know, like [60:43] cool from not relevant, you know, like there's there's this is highly overused [60:45] there's there's this is highly overused [60:45] there's there's this is highly overused right now but [60:46] right now but [60:46] right now but um the the taste thing is real Mhm. and [60:49] um the the taste thing is real Mhm. and [60:49] um the the taste thing is real Mhm. and it's it's not just like [60:53] it's it's not just like [60:53] it's it's not just like I know what things look good together. [60:55] I know what things look good together. [60:55] I know what things look good together. It's more like do I have a point of [60:57] It's more like do I have a point of [60:57] It's more like do I have a point of view? [60:57] view? [60:58] view? Mhm. have a perspective and an [60:59] Mhm. have a perspective and an [60:59] Mhm. have a perspective and an opinionated drive to get it there? And [61:02] opinionated drive to get it there? And [61:02] opinionated drive to get it there? And is it [61:03] is it [61:03] is it is it relevant? Is it more relevant than [61:05] is it relevant? Is it more relevant than [61:05] is it relevant? Is it more relevant than than, you know, what else is out there? [61:07] than, you know, what else is out there? [61:07] than, you know, what else is out there? Mhm. And I think that's that's critical. [61:09] Mhm. And I think that's that's critical. [61:09] Mhm. And I think that's that's critical. That's what any founder is doing is like [61:11] That's what any founder is doing is like [61:11] That's what any founder is doing is like I'm building something that didn't exist [61:12] I'm building something that didn't exist [61:12] I'm building something that didn't exist in the world because I wanted to see it [61:13] in the world because I wanted to see it [61:13] in the world because I wanted to see it there. Mhm. And and because it didn't [61:15] there. Mhm. And and because it didn't [61:16] there. Mhm. And and because it didn't exist is why I'm building it. And I [61:18] exist is why I'm building it. And I [61:18] exist is why I'm building it. And I think um [61:19] think um [61:19] think um right now you're seeing a lot of [61:20] right now you're seeing a lot of [61:20] right now you're seeing a lot of companies [61:21] companies [61:21] companies they're just [61:23] they're just [61:23] they're just copies of copies of copies of copies [61:24] copies of copies of copies of copies [61:25] copies of copies of copies of copies because it's easy. Yeah. Instead of like [61:26] because it's easy. Yeah. Instead of like [61:26] because it's easy. Yeah. Instead of like what's your what's your point of view? [61:28] what's your what's your point of view? [61:28] what's your what's your point of view? Like what is what is opinionated in this [61:30] Like what is what is opinionated in this [61:30] Like what is what is opinionated in this and like where where is it [61:32] and like where where is it [61:32] and like where where is it pushing the the boundaries and where is [61:34] pushing the the boundaries and where is [61:34] pushing the the boundaries and where is it uncomfortable? Mhm. [61:36] it uncomfortable? Mhm. [61:36] it uncomfortable? Mhm. I think that's brilliant. It's a great [61:37] I think that's brilliant. It's a great [61:37] I think that's brilliant. It's a great place to end. Thank you both for coming [61:39] place to end. Thank you both for coming [61:39] place to end. Thank you both for coming on Long Strange Trip. I love the article [61:41] on Long Strange Trip. I love the article [61:41] on Long Strange Trip. I love the article you wrote. I think it's going to be [61:43] you wrote. I think it's going to be [61:43] you wrote. I think it's going to be game-changing for lots of companies. [61:44] game-changing for lots of companies. [61:44] game-changing for lots of companies. Appreciate you both. [61:46] Appreciate you both. [61:46] Appreciate you both. Thank you. [61:46] Thank you. [61:46] Thank you. >> Thank you, Ryan. Thank Jack. Thank you. [61:49] >> Thank you, Ryan. Thank Jack. Thank you. [61:49] >> Thank you, Ryan. Thank Jack. Thank you. Hope you liked that. I really enjoyed [61:52] Hope you liked that. I really enjoyed [61:52] Hope you liked that. I really enjoyed speaking to him. He's an unusual Homo [61:54] speaking to him. He's an unusual Homo [61:54] speaking to him. He's an unusual Homo Sapien [61:55] Sapien [61:55] Sapien and he's got some interesting thoughts. [61:58] and he's got some interesting thoughts. [61:58] and he's got some interesting thoughts. Um [61:59] Um [61:59] Um I think his ideas on how to transform [62:01] I think his ideas on how to transform [62:01] I think his ideas on how to transform the way you build a company and rethink [62:04] the way you build a company and rethink [62:04] the way you build a company and rethink the hierarchy [62:05] the hierarchy [62:05] the hierarchy they kind of make sense to me and I feel [62:07] they kind of make sense to me and I feel [62:07] they kind of make sense to me and I feel like at some point in the future it's [62:09] like at some point in the future it's [62:09] like at some point in the future it's somewhat inevitable that this kind of [62:11] somewhat inevitable that this kind of [62:11] somewhat inevitable that this kind of thing is going to happen. And I I sort [62:13] thing is going to happen. And I I sort [62:13] thing is going to happen. And I I sort of think of it as like when I grew up in [62:15] of think of it as like when I grew up in [62:15] of think of it as like when I grew up in my career I worked at this company PTC [62:17] my career I worked at this company PTC [62:17] my career I worked at this company PTC in the 90s. It was very very manager [62:21] in the 90s. It was very very manager [62:21] in the 90s. It was very very manager mode. Uh very hierarchical. [62:24] mode. Uh very hierarchical. [62:24] mode. Uh very hierarchical. Um the power rested in the VPs [62:27] Um the power rested in the VPs [62:27] Um the power rested in the VPs essentially. [62:28] essentially. [62:28] essentially. Um when I ran HubSpot [62:31] Um when I ran HubSpot [62:31] Um when I ran HubSpot they didn't call it founder mode then [62:32] they didn't call it founder mode then [62:32] they didn't call it founder mode then but it was kind of founder mode. Instead [62:34] but it was kind of founder mode. Instead [62:34] but it was kind of founder mode. Instead of being a pyramid it was flat and a lot [62:38] of being a pyramid it was flat and a lot [62:38] of being a pyramid it was flat and a lot of power was rested in the in the [62:39] of power was rested in the in the [62:39] of power was rested in the in the founder's hands. [62:41] founder's hands. [62:41] founder's hands. Um [62:42] Um [62:42] Um He's sort of proposing the Dorsey mode [62:43] He's sort of proposing the Dorsey mode [62:43] He's sort of proposing the Dorsey mode in my mind. He laughed about it when I [62:45] in my mind. He laughed about it when I [62:45] in my mind. He laughed about it when I said it but I think of his like what's [62:48] said it but I think of his like what's [62:48] said it but I think of his like what's next. [62:49] next. [62:49] next. And it's more like a circle than a [62:52] And it's more like a circle than a [62:52] And it's more like a circle than a really flat organization [62:54] really flat organization [62:54] really flat organization and the power rests in the [62:56] and the power rests in the [62:56] and the power rests in the kind of in the system and the system [62:59] kind of in the system and the system [62:59] kind of in the system and the system makes a lot of decisions and can react [63:02] makes a lot of decisions and can react [63:02] makes a lot of decisions and can react real time to the employees and the [63:03] real time to the employees and the [63:03] real time to the employees and the customers but I think of Dorsey mode as [63:06] customers but I think of Dorsey mode as [63:06] customers but I think of Dorsey mode as getting rid of the hierarchy all [63:08] getting rid of the hierarchy all [63:08] getting rid of the hierarchy all together building [63:10] together building [63:10] together building basically the brain, getting the inputs [63:13] basically the brain, getting the inputs [63:13] basically the brain, getting the inputs right and having it making a lot of the [63:15] right and having it making a lot of the [63:15] right and having it making a lot of the decisions that a hierarchy used to. [63:17] decisions that a hierarchy used to. [63:17] decisions that a hierarchy used to. I think he's onto something. I'm curious [63:19] I think he's onto something. I'm curious [63:19] I think he's onto something. I'm curious to see what you think. Um comment on [63:21] to see what you think. Um comment on [63:21] to see what you think. Um comment on Twitter or comment in on YouTube. I'm [63:23] Twitter or comment in on YouTube. I'm [63:23] Twitter or comment in on YouTube. I'm I'm curious about your thoughts on it. I [63:25] I'm curious about your thoughts on it. I [63:25] I'm curious about your thoughts on it. I think Jack would be curious too. He's [63:26] think Jack would be curious too. He's [63:26] think Jack would be curious too. He's [music] in the very early innings of [63:28] [music] in the very early innings of [63:28] [music] in the very early innings of rolling this out and he's looking for [63:29] rolling this out and he's looking for [63:29] rolling this out and he's looking for feedback on it. Anyway, appreciate you [63:31] feedback on it. Anyway, appreciate you [63:31] feedback on it. Anyway, appreciate you all. Thanks for tuning in.