Opendoor CEO Nejatian Ties Pay to Stock Performance in Refounding Push

Opendoor CEO Nejatian将薪酬与股价挂钩以推动公司重塑 企业转型需要结构性变革，由重视长期产品成果而非短期管理流程的领导层推动。 在这场内容广泛的专访中，Opendoor首席执行官Kaz Nejatian阐述了他以“创始人模式”管理公司的理念，强调应高度聚焦于产品成果而非公司流程，注重长期时间跨度而非季度规划。他分享了自己担任Shopify首席运营官期间公司迅速退出物流业务背后的战略内幕，以及最终促成他接掌Opendoor的那段紧张而忙乱的15天经历。此外，Nejatian还详细介绍了他积极推动打造AI原生工程文化的举措，并深入探讨了他的移民背景、基督教信仰以及家庭对其职业的全力配合，如何成为应对高管领导层深切孤独感的重要精神支柱。 历史表明最持久成功的公司往往建立在其核心业务的“一阶导数”（衍生业务）之上，例如 Union Pacific 靠售地盈利超过客运，Google 的核心是搜索但依托广告建立帝国，Shopify 也是从 SaaS 拓展至商家金融服务。 (0:00) 真正的创始人模式在于对业务结果而非过程承担绝对责任，这与习惯“管理衰退”且偏重流程的职业经理人形成鲜明对比。 (13:49) 领导者无需刻意修补短板来追求全面，而应发挥极致特长并配置互补的流程搭档；同时摒弃无用的季度规划，聚焦于“本周执行”与“十年愿景”两个时间维度。 (17:56) Shopify 在 2023 年仅耗时数周便果断剥离物理物流业务，展现了在外部市场条件变化后不为既往决策背负内疚、唯真理至上的文化。 (29:34) 陷入恶性螺旋的上市公司往往需要彻底“二次创业（Refounding）”；Kaz Nejatian 在接任 Opendoor CEO 后将薪酬与股价表现深度绑定，并推行全员以 AI 为默认工作方式的组织文化转型。 (221:42)

Opendoor CEO Kaz Nejatian argues that revitalizing struggling enterprises requires an aggressive "refounding" that replaces passive managerial bureaucracy with product-driven ownership. Drawing on his leadership at Shopify and Opendoor, Nejatian contends that sustained value creation depends on long-term conviction, performance-aligned incentives, and a relentless willingness to override corporate defaults. Refounding Public Companies and Aligning Incentives (221:42) Nejatian asserts that professional managers are structurally suited for managing decline rather than generating extraordinary outcomes, comparing them unfavorably to active product refounders like Steve Jobs at Apple. After spending weeks modeling Opendoor's product and aborted take-private options, Nejatian was recruited as CEO in a 15-day whirlwind backed by Keith Rabois and founder Eric Wu. He accepted on the condition that the board focus on product rebuilding rather than short-term optics. To break corporate "death spirals," Nejatian insists on restructuring incentives. He criticizes Restricted Stock Units (RSUs) for rewarding mere tenure, opting instead for Performance Share Units (PSUs) that yield zero value below predetermined stock thresholds. Additionally, he bans team fixation on financial media and daily share price movements, arguing that equating daily stock spikes with intelligence fosters reactive, harmful decision-making. Trust Batteries, Flaws, and Two Time Horizons (19:43) Nejatian establishes expectations through a decade-old leadership blueprint designed to attract aligned talent and repel the rest. Modifying Toby Lütke’s "trust battery," Nejatian starts employees at 75% trust to encourage immediate risk-taking, but allows it to deplete rapidly upon failure—a policy reflected in the departure of all but one pre-existing Opendoor executive within two quarters. Rather than attempting to become well-rounded, Nejatian doubles down on product design and partners with a dedicated "process person"—now Opendoor's COO—to manage operations. Nejatian dismisses quarterly planning as "deeply useless," advocating instead for only two time horizons: "this week" for validation and execution, and "10 years from now" for strategic vision. Applying Lütke’s near-zero discount rate to future outcomes, Nejatian stresses that enduring corporate empires rarely monetize their core service directly; rather, they capitalize on "first derivative" businesses, just as Union Pacific monetized land, Google scaled advertising, and Shopify expanded through merchant services. Operational Agility and Mandating AI Adoption (29:34) High-conviction leadership requires abandoning sunk costs when market conditions evolve. Nejatian points to Shopify’s 2023 divestment of its warehousing and fulfillment network—a multi-year initiative unwound within a three- to four-week decision window once third-party alternatives like Walmart and DHL emerged. By divesting capital-heavy "concrete," Shopify refocused on software. At Opendoor, Nejatian mandated that every employee default to artificial intelligence, formalizing it as the primary question on performance evaluations. Following an internal hackathon where non-technical staff—including home renovation managers and legal counsel—built functional tools using Cursor, Gumloop, and OpenAI APIs, the company reinforced a "professional sports team" culture. Nejatian insists performance management exists strictly to determine playing time rather than offer polite corporate reassurance. Stewardship, Overriding Defaults, and Total Life Integration (2:04) Nejatian’s operating philosophy stems from his immigrant upbringing moving from the Middle East to Canada at age 12, which prompted him to reject passive defaults and optimize for stewardship rather than status. After resigning from a private equity firm after just 11 days, he maintained counter-cultural personal habits, such as daily Bible study and prayer, to guard against ego and relentless comparison in tech. Rejecting traditional work-life separation, Nejatian, his wife, and children openly center their lives around his corporate career. He advises young workers against romanticizing passion, advocating instead that they "work all the hours" to master their craft. Drawing on research from his book Get Married, he argues that traditional institutions like marriage provide men essential longevity and mental grounding, enabling them to weather the isolation and severe emotional trials of running a company. Host Brian Halligan emphasizes that seated CEOs must regularly evaluate their companies as if they were unencumbered outside hires on day one, warning that boards will eventually replace leaders who fail to challenge obsolete defaults. For Nejatian, long-term endurance ultimately rests on personal grounding, family stability, and an uncompromising commitment to customer mission over administrative status.

Opendoor 首席执行官 Kaz Nejatian 认为，陷入困境的企业必须打破平庸的默认设定并践行对最终商业结果负全责的“创始人模式”；卓越企业应依托“一阶导数”构建长期壁垒，管理者唯有将全家生活与使命深度融入事业，才能在充满不确定性的市场中实现上市公司的系统性重塑。 创始人模式与上市公司重塑治理 (13:49) Nejatian 针对硅谷盛行的职业经理人模式提出了深刻批判。他指出，职业经理人的权力建立在流程规范之上，往往过分关注程序正确与表面形式，在本质上更适合管理缓慢衰退，而非创造突破性收益。他认为陷入停滞的上市公司深陷系统性“死亡螺旋”，微调改良无法挽救危局，必须如 Steve Jobs 重返苹果那样经历全方位的“重塑”。在他看来，一把手是否为原始创始人并不关键，关键在于最高决策者能否采取“创始人模式”，不以流程为借口，对实际业务结果承担绝对责任。 为打破经理人依靠平庸任期积累财富的错配机制，Nejatian 强烈反对向 CEO 发放助长被动守成心态的限制性股票（RSU）。在接管 Opendoor 时，他主动放弃固定收益，改用未达特定股价目标则价值完全归零的绩效股票单位（PSU），以此使个人利益与股东价值深度绑定。他坚决不看日常股价，告诫团队股价上涨 15% 绝不代表大家聪明了 15%，并将看财经电视比作运动员看体育频道，认为外界杂音只会加剧短期焦虑与被动反应。 团队协作哲学：承认缺陷与信任电池 (19:43) 在人才管理与自我认知上，Nejatian 反对追求“无短板”，主张极致强化核心优势并依靠互补伙伴弥补弱项。他坦承自己不擅长流程管理，因而十年来始终由一位流程专员紧密搭档，该伙伴随他从 Shopify 转战 Opendoor 出任首席运营官，专门保障组织运转节奏。为了杜绝预期错配与内部损耗，Nejatian 履新后公布了一份沿用十年的个人使用手册（Blueprint），以公开透明的做事风格促成团队自我筛选，直接导致原高管团队在数月内仅留存一人。 针对硅谷推崇的“慢招快裁”，Nejatian 改造了 Shopify 创始人 Toby Lütke 的“信任电池”理论。相较于传统从 50% 起步并逐步积累信任的机制，Nejatian 给予新员工高达 75% 的初始信任，旨在早期向团队配置试错风险以加速成长；但其信任消耗速度极快，一旦下属失误便会迅速终止合作。他坚称企业本质上是一支职业体育运动队，绩效评估的核心功能绝非客套温和的评语，而是严肃判定队员是否有资格继续留在场上比赛。 一阶导数业务与聚焦十年的长期主义 (24:14) 在商业模式洞察上，Nejatian 提出伟大企业往往依靠核心业务的“一阶导数”构筑壁垒。例如，联合太平洋铁路（Union Pacific）的主要利润来自于沿线土地与房产买卖而非轨道货运；谷歌的基石是搜索算法，但商业帝国建立在广告衍生业务之上；Shopify 虽始于 SaaS 软件，但真正带来巨量增长的是涵盖支付、税收与广告的商户服务。他指出，硅谷投资人习惯于容易评估的企业级软件和消费级产品，未能深刻理解中小企业与一阶导数业务的长期复合价值。 受 Toby Lütke 启发，Nejatian 主张将未来收益的折现率视为接近于零，将精力严格聚焦于两个极化维度：“本周”用于快速试错与交付验证，“十年后”用于锚定宏大愿景；他直言 12 周的季度规划因周期过短而极其无用，容易诱发管理层的短期投机行为。这种实事求是的决策导向在其剥离 Shopify 物流业务中体现得尤为鲜明：2022 年 9 月出任 COO 后，因外部第三方物流生态已趋成熟，领导团队在短短三至四周内便一致决定撤出重资产仓储投资，并于 2023 年 5 月完成剥离，回归纯软件业务本质。 默认重构与 AI 原生化组织转型 (229:45) Nejatian 认为突破人生与商业瓶颈的核心在于敢于推翻“默认选项”。他早年进入私募股权机构仅 11 天便毅然辞职，以强硬姿态打破安全路径；在科技圈中，他逆主流坚持每日研读圣经与每周礼拜，通过祷告机制对抗地位焦虑，承认个体掌控力的局限。作为移民，他指出人类演化保留的风险误判机制，恰恰促使缺乏安全网的创业者去选择期望值最高的进取道路。 在 Opendoor，Nejatian 将推翻默认落实为全员“默认采用 AI”的强制文化，并将该指标列为绩效考核的首要问题。公司黑客松期间，无编程背景的线下房屋工程经理与法务团队借助 Cursor、Gumloop 和 OpenAI 等工具开发出软件，前总法律顾问甚至编写程序将自身原有工作全流程自动化。Nejatian 强调，推动全员掌握前沿工具并进行高强度的技术重塑，是传统业务实现彻底蜕变的必由之路。 管家意识、家庭对齐与奉献型事业观 (52:52) Nejatian 奉行“管家意识（Stewardship）而非追求地位”的人生准则，认为追求短期快乐容易陷入沮丧，而以服务他人与恪尽托付为导向才能获得深层充实。他反对将工作视为单纯换取报酬的差事（Job），倡导将其作为倾注一生的事业（Career）。在家庭中，他与妻子及子女将整体生活与公司使命深度对齐，日常餐桌对话常年围绕产品构建展开；他主张年轻人在具备条件时应拼尽全力工作以磨炼手艺，在奉献社会的实践中探寻自身极限。 根据亲身经历与数据研究，Nejatian 坚信家庭和婚姻是抵御商业极端压力的关键制度支柱。他曾撰写著作阐释婚姻对男性的健康与财富价值，指出已婚男性的癌症生存率具备显著优势。在 Shopify 亲自连续主导 15 个小时裁员谈话并最终情绪崩溃的至暗时刻，正是家人的支持促使其迅速恢复韧性。Nejatian 将降低住房交易摩擦与持有成本、让普通家庭安居视为核心天职，坚信艰巨的挑战与深层的生命意义高度相关。 主持人 Brian Halligan 评价 Nejatian 展现了极其罕见的专注力与目的性，并建议上市公司 CEO 均应像第一天履新的外部空降者那样主动破除历史包袱、重新审视组织的默认设定，避免未来被董事会强制更替。然而，Nejatian 所倡导的将全家深度绑定于高压事业以及全员 AI 原生化的激进管理范式，对组织抗压韧性与领导者心智提出了极高要求；这套模式能否在重资产、长周期的房地产科技领域实现持续且可规模化的财务回报，仍有待更长经济周期的检验。

[6:55] Kaz Nejatian: Elon [Musk] will always be richer than you [10:52] Kaz Nejatian: there is no safety net [10:52] Kaz Nejatian: if I knew everything I know now I would not have done it [10:52] Kaz Nejatian: Human beings structurally misprice risk. [13:49] Kaz Nejatian: bring your whole self to work [17:56] Kaz Nejatian: Is the fact that I'm bad at this the reason I'm good at everything else? [19:43] Kaz Nejatian: I intend to change the company... but I don't intend to fundamentally change who I am as a person. [19:43] Kaz Nejatian: I got your back and I trust you [19:43] Kaz Nejatian: strong attract, strong repel [24:14] Kaz Nejatian: this week and 10 years from now [221:42] Kaz Nejatian: The stock price going up 15% doesn't mean we're 15% smarter. [221:42] Kaz Nejatian: Watching CNBC does not make you a good professional CEO. It just doesn't. Like I think it makes you worse [225:36] Kaz Nejatian: everything must change [229:45] Kaz Nejatian: The job of a performance management system is to tell you whether you get to play on the team or not. [229:45] Kaz Nejatian: A job is something you do for someone else in order to get paid... A career is something you work on every day for yourself. [52:52] Kaz Nejatian: work all the hours

[0:00] One of the things I have come to believe [0:02] is that most successful companies in the [0:04] history of the world are built on a [0:07] first derivative of the core business. [0:10] Let me give you an example. [0:11] Union Pacific [0:13] railway, massively successful. Made more [0:15] money selling land and homes than [0:17] building railway than carrying stuff on [0:18] the railway. Google, like you search, [0:21] you get ads, like first derivative. [0:22] First derivatives are [0:25] what build enduring companies. [0:28] And Silicon Valley also needs to [0:30] understand first derivative businesses. [0:39] >> [music] [0:49] >> Hey everybody. You have Khosla on the [0:51] show today. He was the very long-time [0:53] CTO at Shopify, recently left, and he's [0:56] the new CEO of OpenDoor. [1:00] The reason I wanted to talk to him is [1:02] he's the most founder mode CEO I've come [1:05] across. He's incredibly aggressive, and [1:09] he's not transforming the company. It's [1:11] a real refounding moment. He's kind of [1:14] rethinking everything from scratch. I [1:16] think he's going to rewrite the [1:18] refounding playbook. And so that part I [1:21] found very interesting. He gets into a [1:23] lot of personal stuff. And CEOs ask me [1:25] about like work-life balance and how do [1:27] you manage everything outside of being a [1:29] CEO? [1:30] >> it's pretty all-consuming. And we talk [1:33] about his faith, his marriage, his [1:34] ambition, what it was like to be an [1:36] immigrant. He talks a lot about how he [1:39] kind of lines his whole family around [1:40] his job and the mission of his company. [1:43] I thought that was fascinating. Um I [1:44] appreciate him getting into it because [1:46] one-on-one CEOs ask me about that stuff [1:48] all the time. [1:49] I hope you'll like it. I'll be back at [1:51] the end for a little summary. I thought [1:53] he was terrific. [1:55] Khosla, great to have you. [1:57] Thanks for having me, man. [1:59] Uh I'm been an admirer of yours for a [2:01] long time, and even more so since you [2:02] took over OpenDoor. [2:04] And in preparation for the pod, [2:07] I interviewed or talked to a whole bunch [2:09] of people you work for work with before. [2:12] Um [2:14] a whole bunch of them asked me to ask [2:16] you about, you know, [2:18] your first principles for business and [2:21] life because they said kind of [2:23] everything flows out of that. So do If [2:26] you don't mind, I'd love to hear about [2:27] this. I grew up in um Middle East, and I [2:30] moved to Canada when I was 12. Yeah. So [2:34] one of the things that happens to you [2:37] uh when you do that, when you grow up in [2:39] a culture different than yours, [2:42] is you get a chance to actually [2:43] reconsider [2:45] a bunch of your like [2:48] roots. Mhm. Like your like [2:50] [clears throat] you get to reconsider [2:51] the ground upon which you stand. Yeah. [2:53] Um [2:55] and [2:56] because of that, you actually have to be [2:58] slightly more deliberate about [3:01] what you believe. I know it sounds odd, [3:03] but basically every immigrant goes [3:05] through a version of this. Mhm. [3:07] Especially ones that successfully [3:08] assimilate, you get to have like you get [3:10] to consider like what is, you know, what [3:12] you want your brain to believe [3:15] uh relatively early on. [3:17] And I I I thought like there's like four [3:19] I core believe in, and I talk about [3:21] frequently. So I talk about I'll tell [3:23] I'll tell you about those four. [3:25] The first one is um a very good friend [3:28] of mine once gave me advice. He said, [3:31] "You want to optimize for stewardship [3:33] rather than status in your life and your [3:35] career. [3:36] I.e., you want to do things rather than [3:39] be things." [3:41] And this was very important to me early [3:42] on in my life cuz people would ask me [3:43] what do you want to do? [3:45] And I would say title of a job. Yeah. [3:49] And people would say [3:50] like my good friends would say, "What [3:52] does that mean?" [3:54] And it just actually tends to be [3:56] if you think about that in life, it [3:58] actually tends to be [3:59] deeply useful to you Mhm. to think of [4:02] yourself as like what you are doing, and [4:04] what are you doing that in service of. [4:06] Mhm. Like people who optimize for [4:08] happiness end up not being happy cuz [4:10] happiness is a state. [4:12] People optimize for service end up [4:14] actually being usually deeply happy. [4:17] Um so like stewardship over status um [4:20] is like the one of the most important [4:22] ones for me. Okay. Uh [4:24] I love that. Yeah. I know there's a [4:26] couple of other ones we can talk about [4:27] if you want, but like they're like [4:28] actually stewardship over status, [4:30] default over everything else. Sorry? I [4:33] didn't follow that. Default? Default [4:35] over everything else. I.e., [4:37] the power of defaults in life is [4:39] underestimated. [4:40] Like you cannot accidentally override [4:43] defaults [4:44] in life [4:45] or in software, really. Like what [4:47] happens is people basically accept every [4:49] default you give them in software, and [4:51] usually you accept every default you [4:53] have in life. [4:55] And if you start rejecting a couple of [4:56] defaults, you actually fire the software [4:59] or fire your current life. [5:01] Um this is like one of those other [5:03] things that have been deeply important [5:04] to me. Those two things are probably the [5:05] most important things. Those two things [5:07] kind of rhyme. What [5:10] on just on the professional side and the [5:13] Just give me an example on both sides. [5:14] What are defaults that you have [5:16] overridden or ignored [5:19] on the professional and recently in the [5:20] professional and personal? [5:22] I'm curious about that. Well, but that [5:24] what I mean is like if you want to [5:25] override a default, you have to do it [5:27] with like all your power. Yeah. You [5:29] can't choose like half-ass it, really. [5:32] >> Yeah. I mean look Look, I took a job at [5:35] OpenDoor, which was not the default [5:37] choice Was not. [5:39] >> career. [5:41] And you cannot kind of accidentally do [5:44] it. You have to do it with full force, [5:45] otherwise the wall will stop you. [5:48] Let me give you an example. Like I went [5:49] to uh business school for undergrad. [5:50] I'll give this example. I went to [5:51] undergrad for business school. And then [5:53] at a business school, I got a job at a [5:55] small private equity firm. [5:58] Which was a default choice [6:00] >> for [6:01] going to business school. [6:03] I lasted 11 days. Mhm. I left the firm. [6:06] Like literally 11 days. [6:08] And I just I resigned after 11 days. I'm [6:11] like, "This is not what I want to do [6:13] with my life." It was deeply [6:14] uncomfortable. Mhm. But I kind of knew [6:17] the only way I would be able to get off [6:19] this road was by fighting the like the [6:21] safe choice. [6:22] Now, you can't do that with everything [6:24] in your life. You generally can't. Just [6:26] like you can't fight your MacBook [6:29] default all the time. Yes. You can [6:31] change one or two things [6:33] if you're deliberate about them. And [6:34] that has been like a core part of my [6:36] life is that when I choose to change a [6:38] default, I just like [6:40] go at full speed. [6:42] And by the way, a a a lesson for people [6:43] who build products is like this is why [6:45] your responsibility in setting defaults [6:48] is so important. Mhm. Because if you set [6:51] defaults such that the user has to think [6:53] about all the time, they will just fire [6:54] your software. [6:55] >> Yes. And on the personal side, what's a [6:57] default that you've overridden or [6:59] ignored? [7:00] Um [7:01] quite quite a few, honestly. Um [7:04] in that area. Like quite a few important [7:06] ones, anyway. [7:07] Let me give you like a like a real Like [7:09] I'm a religious person, where default [7:12] for people in my where I grew up and [7:14] what I do is not to be religious. Yeah. [7:17] Like [7:18] I [7:19] like [7:20] read the Bible every day, go to church [7:22] every Sunday. [7:23] Um and I've done that deliberately [7:26] because I have found that it makes me [7:28] better as a human being. Just for me, [7:31] the deeply selfish way it makes you good [7:32] as a human being. [7:34] Um that's not [7:36] I'm not that comfortable talking about [7:37] this. Generally, I It's actually the [7:38] first time I've actually talked about [7:39] it. [7:40] But it it is a way in which I'm [7:42] different Like there are no other tech [7:43] CEOs that would be dis- would talk about [7:45] this. [7:46] And that has mattered uh to me. [7:49] Uh my wife and I have always essentially [7:51] decided that we would optimize our lives [7:54] for a certain set of things that are [7:56] different than most people's set of [7:58] things. [7:59] Uh and those two combined have [8:01] essentially allowed me to have the [8:02] career I have. Mhm. I generally don't [8:05] think I could have had it without those [8:06] two defaults changing. [8:09] And why do you think [8:11] You're right, it's rare that you meet a [8:13] tech CEO that reads the Bible every day. [8:16] Um [8:18] when did you say, "Okay, this is me. [8:21] This is going to inform my life. This is [8:23] going to inform my work." Did Did at [8:26] some point did a [8:28] something flip in your head on that? [8:30] Yeah. Look, I mean it Look, like [8:32] everyone else [8:33] who grows up as a nerd, I grew up like [8:36] deeply aware of the power of like [8:40] my brain over my life. [8:43] Like it's just very [8:44] People who are not nerds, like I'm I'm [8:46] an actual honest-to-goodness nerd. I [8:47] like it. Started coding when I was six. [8:50] Um don't appreciate that power every [8:54] day. [8:55] And but for me, it was like really [8:57] important like very early on. [9:00] And what happens if you're not careful [9:02] in this state, um which is what happens [9:04] to most founders, [9:06] is depression sets in. [9:09] This is why many founders end up being [9:11] like relatively depressed, even if [9:13] they're successful. This is why so many [9:15] successful rich people are depressed. [9:17] Because they lose control over what they [9:21] like what their core beliefs are. Mhm. [9:23] And then life becomes a rat race. Like [9:26] you're always competing with someone. [9:28] And guess what? Elon will always be [9:30] richer than you. Yes. And if you're [9:32] optimizing your life for like that, you [9:34] will always end up being deeply unhappy. [9:37] It's the wrong race. [9:38] It's like you just It's not a race you [9:40] can win. And [9:42] um so you But you do need some races in [9:44] your life. And what happened to me early [9:46] on was I'm like, "Okay, cool. Let me [9:47] think about the things that I think will [9:50] set me up [9:51] so I can have a contentful career. Mhm. [9:55] One where I could be proud of my career [9:56] and part of my life. Mhm. And early on I [9:59] found [10:00] at least for me that prayer was even [10:02] before I [10:04] read the Bible or was a [10:05] went to church. I grew up Muslim. [10:08] Uh prayer [10:09] um was deeply powerful. [10:11] This moment of sitting down and saying I [10:13] don't have control over everything. [10:15] Let me think and reflect on my day and [10:18] pray. [10:20] Uh I didn't really know how to do it at [10:21] first, but the first I did every day for [10:24] a little while it just worked. Mhm. [10:26] I meditate. [10:28] Does that fit in that same thing? Almost [10:30] certainly. Almost certainly. Okay. [10:32] >> think I think it's most it does [10:33] basically the same job [10:35] um [10:37] with just one tweak. [10:40] Like [10:40] cuz I I think I think that that is [10:42] actually like most successful people [10:44] meditate one way or another. Yeah. I [10:47] just happen to meditate [10:49] with someone else present. Got it. [10:52] Um so many of the entrepreneurs I I I [10:56] work with are immigrants and so many of [10:58] the most successful entrepreneurs [11:00] including my co-founder at HubSpot and [11:02] CEO of Shopify are immigrants. [11:06] I think there's a lot of reasons that is [11:07] one of the main reasons though that when [11:09] they get to [11:11] the US or Canada in his case [11:14] just like you have a chance to reset [11:17] like hit the reset button and rethink [11:19] your defaults from scratch. Do you think [11:20] that's part of why that's the case? [11:23] I think that's a romantic way of putting [11:25] it. Okay. I'm romantic. I think I think [11:27] I think it's I think that's the case. [11:29] Upside whipping it. [11:30] But the real answer for most for Tobi, [11:33] for me [11:34] for most other immigrants is [11:36] there is no safety net. Yeah. [11:39] Like I had I didn't have an option. [11:42] Like Tobi could not Tobi couldn't get a [11:44] job. Yeah. He had to like start Shopify. [11:47] Yes. I personally know anyone. [11:50] Like I had to like I had to pay for [11:52] college. [11:54] So I had to start working and like I [11:56] just no one would hire me. Yeah. [11:59] Um so like hustling for money and like [12:01] building websites for people it just [12:03] became what I did. Yeah. [12:06] And I think you typically like people [12:08] who tell me hey I want to grow up to be [12:09] an entrepreneur might start start this [12:11] whole question is just probably don't. [12:14] Yeah, cuz you probably are one already. [12:15] You start your paperwork or whatever [12:17] when you're set. [12:19] >> Like the type of people who decide they [12:21] want to be founders because they think [12:24] it is cool always fail. Like they just [12:26] always will cuz it's just [12:27] it's deeply painful and lonely. Um [12:32] in ways that are like most successful [12:36] entrepreneurs you talk to [12:38] if they're being honest, they would say [12:39] something along lines of if I knew [12:41] everything I know now I would not have [12:43] done it. Yeah. [12:45] Um [12:47] But I my my answer to this is [12:49] slightly different in that I don't know [12:51] what else I would have done. [12:53] Yeah. You didn't have the [12:55] the wider range of options and so [12:59] it seemed less risky to be an [13:00] entrepreneur. Yeah. Yeah. Risk adjusted [13:04] upside and we when you did the expected [13:06] value on all the equations, that had the [13:08] highest expected value for you. Yeah. [13:10] And I think this is actually a very real [13:11] thing in life is that like human beings [13:13] structurally misprice risk. Yeah. [13:16] It's actually the one thing that is in [13:18] favor of entrepreneurs. The one thing [13:20] that is structurally in favor of [13:21] entrepreneurs is everyone else misprices [13:24] risk. Yeah. [13:25] I think it's partially because of the [13:26] way we evolved. It was just like we were [13:28] just always one lion bite away from [13:30] dying. Yeah. So we're like ah [13:33] Like but turns out like things going [13:34] poorly is not as painful as you think it [13:37] is. You will recover. [13:39] It's just far more things will go wrong [13:41] than you expect them to go wrong. Yes. [13:43] Like each pain is not as bad as you [13:45] think it is, but everything is more [13:47] painful than you think it is. Yes. So I [13:49] spend a lot of time with CEOs. Like [13:52] that's my life these days. [13:54] And [13:56] I look back that the the founder mode [14:00] memo or Paul Graham memo was it was a [14:02] little over a year ago. Mhm. And [14:06] I think it's had deep impact. Like it's [14:09] the default now. [14:10] And I don't think CEOs [14:13] apologize for that behavior anymore. [14:16] Aren't trying to aren't being talked [14:17] into manager mode. [14:20] And you are now my in my head the poster [14:23] child for [14:25] founder mode. How does that land with [14:26] you? [14:28] I mean I'm comfortably uh this is this [14:31] is a part of my job I'm genuinely not [14:34] good at. Like this like talking to [14:36] people about the job. Yeah. [14:39] Uh I'm much more comfortable [14:41] like in Figma working through product [14:44] problems. [14:45] Um but [14:47] so I'm uncomfortable being the poster [14:48] child for anything genuinely. [14:51] But [14:52] but you think about this [14:54] uh I'm 42 now so like you I think about [14:57] my responsibilities uh to the world. 43. [15:01] Uh and one of my responsibilities I feel [15:03] like so I had this very weird out of [15:05] body uh moment where I can remember [15:07] this. I had a conversation [15:09] um basically where I was like [15:11] working at a big company. [15:14] And [15:16] I came out of a meeting and my boss at [15:18] the time told me hey [15:20] this is why you will never be [15:22] uh an executive at this company. [15:26] And I said why? And my boss said well [15:28] because you don't have an executive [15:29] voice. [15:31] And I said what the is that? [15:34] >> [laughter] [15:34] >> And my boss said exactly. [15:38] Um [15:39] and I felt deeply [15:43] um painful just was very deeply painful. [15:48] Because it felt to me at the time at [15:50] least everyone else was being told bring [15:52] your whole self to work. Yeah. [15:54] Bring your whole self to work. That was [15:56] like what everyone else was being told. [15:58] But if you were slightly disagreeable [16:01] Yeah. [16:02] or if you cared about the details a [16:04] little too much [16:07] um or if you thought [16:09] you know that like [16:11] 9:00 to 5:00 wasn't odd working hour. [16:13] Like if you thought any of these things [16:16] you weren't allowed to bring your whole [16:17] self to work. You like you were excluded [16:19] from this [16:21] thing. [16:22] So I think what founder mode over [16:24] anything else means genuinely [16:28] is about [16:29] the amount of responsibility [16:33] the CEO takes for outcomes. [16:35] Like I'm not responsible I hold myself [16:38] responsible for outcomes [16:40] not processes. [16:42] Like [16:43] I have a wonderful uh person who works [16:45] for me and I'm like your job is process [16:47] design, my job is outcome delivery. [16:49] Okay. Look, do we have different jobs [16:51] here? Mhm. And her job and her job every [16:53] once in a while I think Kaz I need you [16:54] to come down for a second. And I [16:57] four to five times I will. Um [16:59] but the main difference between [17:01] professional managers and um founders is [17:04] professional managers care more [17:07] about process than truth. [17:10] They care more about what things look [17:12] like than what they are. [17:14] Because their source of power comes from [17:16] management. Yeah. [17:19] And that's not where my source of power [17:20] comes from. I don't have [17:22] no one thinks I'm a good manager. [17:25] Like genuinely no one thinks that. Like [17:27] I've had [17:28] and I have managed thousands of people [17:31] uh in my job like thousands. [17:33] And I don't think any of them would say [17:34] Kaz is a great manager. [17:36] None of the people I called said you [17:38] were a great manager in getting ready [17:40] for this. Like I I think some of them [17:42] would say I would work for Kaz again. I [17:43] think many of them would say that. I [17:44] think would say Kaz is a good leader. [17:47] But as a good I'm not a I'm not the [17:49] world's greatest manager. I am [17:51] you know, but the upside that you get [17:54] with having me as your [17:56] manager. That process person has that [17:59] process person been with you for 10 [18:01] years or did you just discover that [18:04] process person when you joined OpenDoor? [18:06] No, it's been uh she's been with me. [18:08] She's I mean she's young. She's now the [18:10] chief operating officer of OpenDoor. [18:12] Okay. So she came from Shopify. She was [18:14] she was at Shopify with me. Yes. And I [18:15] like [18:17] and at uh when I was at Facebook I had [18:18] different process person. Um [18:20] this in fact in my first meeting at [18:23] Facebook I got hired as a product [18:25] manager. [18:26] I was sitting in this meeting and there [18:28] was a person sitting next to me. [18:30] And I was sitting in the meeting and [18:31] this person literally started kicking me [18:33] under the table. [18:34] Like never [18:36] met this person before. [18:38] But like I like so and that person also [18:41] came to Shopify eventually with us. But [18:43] like so we had like a [18:45] So I need like everyone has [18:47] flaws that we need to be aware of. And [18:49] one of my jobs is to not make myself [18:52] well-rounded. Okay, let me ask you about [18:54] that. A lot of people say you should [18:56] work on your strengths and a lot of [18:57] other people myself say hire around your [19:00] weaknesses, work on your strengths. Are [19:01] you Do you ever work on your weaknesses? [19:04] Like you got lots of feedback over the [19:05] years. You didn't I don't. lean into [19:07] your strengths. I don't I don't. Um in [19:10] fact I think this is like one of the [19:11] things that you get wrong early on your [19:12] career. Me, too. You have a meeting with [19:14] your manager and your manager will give [19:16] you some feedback about what you've done [19:17] over the last 6 months. Mhm. And then [19:19] you by naturally say oh I'm bad at this. [19:21] I need to get better. [19:23] What you actually have to ask yourself [19:24] is is the fact that I'm bad at this the [19:27] reason I'm good at everything else? [19:28] Yeah. [19:30] Right? So I have always basically [19:33] throughout my career had someone whose [19:35] job it was to round me out. Yeah. Um [19:40] Keep trains on time. Yeah. [19:43] Um when you [19:45] when you joined OpenDoor you published a [19:48] blueprint that I read [19:51] which is kind of a user manual for [19:54] working for for Cass. [19:57] And it read to me that's part of where [19:59] the founder might read to me as a [20:00] founder mode kind of manifesto, but [20:03] you know, Cassish. Yeah. Um most CEOs [20:06] are quirky and [20:08] most founders are quirky. I was [20:10] certainly quirky, still am. [20:12] And should all CEOs write a user manual [20:15] to themselves? Yes. 100%. Look, that's [20:18] that that blueprint is about a decade [20:20] old. Oh, okay. You've had that for a [20:22] while. I've changed words in it like [20:24] maybe like a dozen words, but it's about [20:26] a decade old. Like I've had I've had it [20:28] for a while and I've given it to [20:31] I published it Shopify. I I've given it [20:33] to other people. [20:33] >> Got it. Got it. [20:34] >> Um [20:36] And like the reason is that look, [20:38] if you're a founder type, [20:41] you owe it to everyone around you to [20:43] tell them who you are. [20:45] Strong attract, strong repel. [20:49] Like [20:50] but if you go to [20:52] uh a restaurant if you go if you go to [20:54] an Italian restaurant and you complain [20:56] the sushi is bad, [20:58] that's your fault. [20:59] You went to the wrong restaurant. [21:01] But if you went to a restaurant that [21:02] says restaurant and it said food is bad, [21:05] that's the restaurant's fault. [21:07] My job is to tell you what kind of a [21:09] person I am [21:10] so you can opt in or opt out. Yep. [21:13] >> I intend to change the company. [21:16] I will work on myself all the time. We [21:17] all should. We all have flaws. [21:20] But I don't intend to to fundamentally [21:22] change who I am as a person. Mhm. [21:25] Number one on that list caught my [21:27] attention. [21:29] It was I got your back and I trust you, [21:33] which gives me warm fuzzies inside. [21:36] Um [21:38] but [21:39] at some point you work with people and [21:42] they let you down or they didn't meet [21:44] your bar or they didn't scale. [21:48] And like a lot of CEOs talk about you [21:50] know, hire slow and fire fast. [21:52] >> Yeah. [21:53] If I read between the lines, it look it [21:55] sounds like you hire slow and fire slow. [21:58] Is that fair? Do you have a contrarian [22:00] view on that? [22:01] >> Uh [22:03] no. [22:04] I think that says something along the [22:06] lines of I think the sentence goes [22:09] if we work together, I have higher trust [22:10] than most because we're on the same [22:12] team. [22:13] Mhm. It doesn't say that you will be on [22:15] the same team we'll be on the same team [22:16] forever. [22:17] Mhm. Like I I start [22:20] I I find [22:22] that [22:23] it is easier um [22:25] and Toby had this concept which I [22:27] thought was wonderful called trust [22:28] battery. Yes. I I totally stole that [22:30] from him. It's just deeply useful. He's [22:32] like [22:33] and his point was hey, [22:35] I usually start a 50% trust battery with [22:37] you. As you build trust, I increase it [22:40] and then as you go deep [22:42] I thought about this a lot. I'm like no, [22:43] I don't. I usually play so with 75% [22:45] trust in you. [22:47] >> I see. [22:48] But I deplete it much faster than I see. [22:50] Okay. [22:52] Because I want to start by being able to [22:56] allocate risk to you more than you [22:58] you're comfortable being allocated risk [23:00] to early on. [23:02] So I think when I say I got your back, I [23:03] mean go take the risks. Yep. [23:06] I'm underwriting you to take the risk. [23:09] But um because otherwise I think what [23:11] happens is you learn too slowly about [23:13] what people are. [23:14] Like if you were dropped in into a [23:17] a hockey team you were growing up, [23:19] um like hey, [23:20] you're the new put her left winger on [23:22] this team. [23:24] It's a really bad idea for you to assume [23:27] uh the center man is a bad hockey [23:29] player. [23:30] It's just bad cuz you will [23:31] overcompensate it for the person that [23:33] you without knowing. Yep. [23:35] >> better off assuming they are very good [23:36] at their job. Mhm. [23:38] And then doing your job well. [23:40] That's what I mean. I mean when I start, [23:42] I assume you're here, therefore you're [23:44] good at your job. Mhm. But I I have a [23:46] much um [23:48] different [23:49] battery depletion mode than most people. [23:50] Look, look, is if you look at Open Doors [23:53] um executive team since I started [23:57] from two quarters so two quarters ago [23:58] before I joined, [24:00] there's one member of the executive team [24:01] left [24:02] at the company. [24:04] That's just strong repel, strong attract [24:06] play of the job. Um Turns out there was [24:09] a lot of strong repel. [24:11] >> [laughter] [24:13] >> What? Yeah. [24:14] Uh you brought up Toby. He's he's on my [24:17] Mount Rushmore of founders. I think he's [24:19] very special. [24:20] What can CEOs other than the trust [24:23] battery thing, which I I think is great, [24:26] um what can CEOs learn from Toby? [24:29] Um there's a concept in finance called [24:31] uh discount rate. Mhm. What is a [24:33] discount rate on anything? [24:36] And most [24:38] corporate types [24:40] apply a very high discount rate to [24:43] outcomes. [24:44] I.e. if something's going to happen in 5 [24:46] years, they value it like 20% of value. [24:51] Um Toby applies a discount rate of zero [24:53] basically [24:55] to the future. But like Toby like is [24:57] built for the long term in ways that are [24:59] very difficult to do in a modern public [25:01] company. Mhm. Like he's determined to [25:05] care about what happens 10 years from [25:07] now as much as what he cares about what [25:08] happens now. Okay, very long horizons. [25:11] Very long very long horizons. And it's [25:13] deeply useful to think about it. [25:16] Because I think what actually matters [25:18] generally I think there are two useful [25:19] time frames to think about if you're [25:21] managing company. Mhm. This week [25:24] and 10 years from now. Okay. [25:27] Like this quarter is actually deeply [25:29] useless [25:31] measuring thing. [25:32] >> Okay. So everyone's got it wrong on the [25:33] quarters. All right. Tell me why. [25:36] I think weeks are very important. Like a [25:37] week is an incredibly important period [25:39] of time because you can get a lot done a [25:41] week. You can validate most ideas in a [25:44] week. You can ship most things in a [25:46] week. [25:47] But 12 weeks in my experience is not [25:49] that useful in really anything. I see. [25:52] >> Like it's just not a measurable it's not [25:54] like not cohorts don't bake enough in 12 [25:56] weeks. Like they just like you know what [25:59] the outcome of most things [26:02] either in a week or in a very long time. [26:04] >> Right. Okay. I like this. [26:06] Um [26:08] what else can people learn from Toby? [26:10] Uh building companies outside Silicon [26:11] Valley [26:12] is a deeply useful thing. [26:14] Like you guys built HubSpot outside [26:16] Silicon Valley. Um I think part of the [26:18] reason HubSpot was successful is because [26:19] it wasn't in Silicon Valley. I'll give [26:21] you a thesis on that. [26:23] Uh cuz Shopify and HubSpot started [26:25] around the started around the same time. [26:26] We both started in SMB. [26:29] And I don't think either company had a [26:31] choice because Silicon Valley is so [26:33] allergic to SMB. [26:34] Um that [26:36] if we were in in in the valley, we [26:39] probably would have either been talked [26:40] out of it or wouldn't have been able to [26:42] raise money. So I don't think it's a [26:43] coincidence [26:45] that [26:46] you know, two pretty big SMB companies [26:48] get founded in Canada and Boston. [26:52] Yeah, I think I think this I mean by the [26:53] way, I think the same is true for [26:55] real estate software. Okay. [26:57] >> relatively allergic to it. Yeah. [27:00] I I think this is partially because [27:03] um despite the fact that most Silicon [27:05] Valley type under understand the idea of [27:07] cohorts and how they bake, Yeah. they're [27:10] they they understand it theoretically, [27:12] but not deeply. Mhm. [27:14] Like the cohorts [27:16] of HubSpot and Shopify and by the way, [27:21] Open Door just bake [27:23] differently. [27:24] And [27:26] like most even like this is why Silicon [27:29] Valley by the way loves enterprise sales [27:31] companies. Yep. This is deeply loves [27:33] enterprise sales because they're like [27:36] I understand that model perfectly. I [27:38] understand the like the [27:40] ideal customer like ICP of the ideal [27:42] customer profile like [27:43] Silicon Valley loves enterprise software [27:45] and consumer. [27:46] Yep. Like there are two things like uh [27:48] we don't know how to understand how to [27:50] underwrite these things. [27:52] But [27:54] um churn like churn is something Silicon [27:56] Valley doesn't genuinely understand. [27:58] And the other thing Silicon Valley [27:59] doesn't really understand, which is odd [28:02] generally odd, [28:03] so I'm going to tell you um I'm um [28:07] give me some rope here for a second. [28:09] Toby once asked me to take over Shopify [28:11] shipping. He's like hey, you're going to [28:13] run Shopify shipping. [28:14] I'm like great. [28:16] The first thing I did was I went and [28:18] read the US US Postal Service Act, which [28:20] was written in the 1700s. I'm like I'm [28:23] going to go like read this thing that is [28:25] the basis of this whole system. Okay. I [28:28] need to understand like how the system [28:29] works. Yep. I'm deeply curious about the [28:32] history of things. Deeply curious. [28:35] And one of the things I have come to [28:37] believe [28:38] is that most successful companies in the [28:40] history of the world [28:42] are built on a first derivative of the [28:45] core business. [28:47] Let me give you an example. [28:48] Union Pacific [28:50] railway, massively successful. Made more [28:52] money selling land and homes than [28:54] building railway than carrying stuff on [28:55] the railway. Yeah, and Shopify turns you [28:58] know, this started as a SAS company as [29:00] payments company. [29:01] Yeah, like they I mean I think it's a [29:02] kind of generally a merchant services [29:04] company. Yes. But yeah, like payments, [29:06] tax, billing, like [29:08] ads, bunch of other stuff. [29:10] But this is actually the core [29:13] most of the most successful companies in [29:15] the history of the world. Google. Like [29:17] you search, you get ads. Like first [29:18] derivative. Yep. [29:20] First derivatives are [29:23] what build enduring companies. [29:26] And Silicon Valley also misunderstands [29:27] first derivative businesses. Mhm. Cuz [29:29] the CAC and LTV is slightly harder to [29:31] calculate. Yep. [29:34] Just inside so I want to get to the [29:37] shipping thing. At one point Shopify [29:39] made a huge bet like we're going to buy [29:41] warehouses, we're going to have [29:42] inventory, like we're going to do the [29:44] whole e-commerce stack. [29:47] And you ran that play for a while, and I [29:49] was watching from afar like, "Oh, that [29:51] was impressive move." And then at some [29:54] point you said, "Actually, we don't want [29:55] to do that." And you divested in that [29:58] business. You just take me behind the [30:00] scenes to the discussions and when you [30:02] made that bet. [30:04] And then even more importantly, behind [30:06] the scenes of what happened and how all [30:07] the discussions taken, what were the [30:09] protagonists saying when you decided, [30:11] "Hey, we were wrong. Let's get out of [30:13] this business." That was a very [30:14] interesting [30:16] chapter for you guys. And I had admired [30:18] I admired it. So, getting out of this [30:21] decision to get out of it took about [30:24] 3 weeks, I think, 4 weeks. Where did the [30:26] Where did it start? [30:29] Did somebody send an email to Toby like, [30:31] "We were all wrong about this." [30:32] So, look, I took over as a chief [30:34] operating officer of a company [30:36] uh [30:37] in I think September of '22. And we sold [30:39] the company we sold publicly sold [30:41] logistics in May of the following year. [30:44] It's like all understood these things [30:46] take 3 months to negotiate. So, like you [30:48] can back figure out when the decision [30:50] got made. [30:52] So, you thought it you thought it was a [30:53] bad call in the first place. You took [30:54] over the new job like, "Okay, I think we [30:56] should unwind this." I think it's odd to [30:58] hold your past self guilty. I think you [31:01] should try very hard not to hold your [31:03] past self guilty cuz you made the best [31:04] decision you could have made at the [31:05] time. Yeah. You also owe it to yourself [31:08] to make a brand new decision every day [31:10] on facts that you learn. And Shopify [31:12] needed to focus way more at its core [31:16] business and less on side quests. [31:19] And Toby just genuinely was like, "Yes, [31:21] we should go on like main mission." And [31:24] what core was it? Did you feel like your [31:25] main business was getting wobbly? The [31:27] cohorts were worse getting a new [31:29] competitor? Like [31:31] where was the inkling? And And what was [31:33] What was the meeting like when you were [31:35] arguing about this? Or you didn't even [31:36] argue about it? No, it wasn't There was [31:39] no table pound table fisting thing. [31:41] Yeah. Shopify was a place where we we [31:44] had honest conversations frequently. [31:46] Uh no, I think what happened was look, [31:48] facts on the ground changed, right? When [31:50] Shopify got into logistics [31:53] there were no good ways for a small [31:55] business to do logistics. [31:58] There just wasn't any. Like it was [31:59] Amazon or bust. Yeah. Um [32:03] in the 4 years since Shopify started, a [32:06] bunch of very good companies got started [32:08] and were very good. Walmart got into [32:10] space. DHL got into space. [32:12] >> Interesting. Okay. All the few people [32:13] So, like the the alternative to us doing [32:16] it changed. Yeah. [32:18] Like we were not jealous of anyone [32:20] else's margin. We didn't get into this [32:21] business because of like, "Yes, margin." [32:23] That's not how great businesses are [32:25] built. [32:27] So, the people we needed to serve didn't [32:28] need us anymore. So, we're like, "Okay, [32:29] great. We don't have to go buy a [32:31] concrete. Great. Concrete is annoying. [32:34] Mhm. [32:35] Let's go back and deal with um electrons [32:37] cuz electrons behave differently. [32:39] >> a fight internally, I guess, is my [32:40] question. The person who owned that [32:42] initiative pushed back hard. No? No, it [32:45] was it was very it was incredibly [32:48] um you'd be surprised how easy it was to [32:51] get everyone aligned and execute against [32:53] it. [32:53] >> Interesting. It sounded from the outside [32:55] as a whopper. Like I was so impressed [32:57] that you're like, "We made this big bet. [32:59] You know what? We were wrong. Let's not [33:01] continue to throw [33:03] bad money after bad money." [33:05] Shopify is an incredibly good company at [33:07] successfully discovering things that [33:09] don't work Mhm. and being honest with [33:12] itself. And is that Toby? Toby strikes [33:14] me as like [33:16] Toby's one of the few very few people on [33:17] the planet that makes me a little bit [33:19] nervous. [33:20] Um very few people like that. And then [33:22] he's just he's kind of stern and he's [33:24] kind of tough and he's very, you know, [33:26] does that come from him? [33:28] He's not that stern generally. I think [33:30] he's a kind wonderfully human being. But [33:33] Shopify is deeply committed to truth [33:35] above all else. And but that comes from [33:37] him, I assume. Yeah, of course, of [33:39] course. It's I mean [33:41] companies are exoskeletons of their [33:43] leaders if they're good. I like that. I [33:45] like a very real thing. Like like every [33:47] company must be an exoskeleton of its [33:49] leader if that leader is good. Yeah. [33:52] Um so Shopify is an exoskeleton of Toby. [33:55] Yeah. Okay. You work for Zuckerberg and [33:59] Toby. [34:02] How did they rhyme and how did they not [34:04] rhyme? [34:05] Now, I worked with Toby much more [34:06] closely than I did with Mark, but I you [34:09] know, I knew Mark and and I know Mark. [34:10] Um [34:11] uh [34:13] they're both [34:14] deeply product focused, deeply product [34:16] focused in like [34:18] ways that are genuinely impressive. Mhm. [34:21] Um [34:22] they're both very, very um long-term [34:25] focused in ways [34:27] that are just genuinely impressive. [34:30] They've both built companies the hard [34:32] way. Like generally, like if I like if [34:34] you look at Mark lost his entire [34:36] executive team [34:37] after it turned down the eye walk [34:39] acquisition. Like all his friends put on [34:40] him. Yeah. [34:43] Like how many people survive that? Yeah. [34:45] Like no one survives that. Like no one. [34:48] Um [34:49] So, they both built companies the hard [34:50] way and they're very they're very [34:51] similar in that way generally. Now, I [34:53] think Mark is more of a product manager [34:56] at heart and Toby's more of an engineer [34:58] at heart. Mhm. So, that that manifests [35:01] itself differently [35:03] in how conversations go. [35:06] Like you end up having lots of [35:07] conversations with Toby about uh the [35:10] shipping API. Mhm. [35:13] Um but they're very similar people. [35:17] Okay. [35:18] How did it all go down with the OpenDoor [35:20] is kind of cruising along? [35:22] Uh very low market cap. And take like [35:27] what the hell happened? Keith and the [35:29] founder and you got together and took [35:31] over this public company. Like take this [35:33] behind the scenes. What the hell [35:35] happened there? [35:36] I'm generally comfortable saying this. I [35:38] don't know how this could have happened [35:41] without some someone else's plan. [35:43] Like I was flying back home from Dallas, [35:47] Texas in February [35:49] where I was hosting like this event at [35:51] Shopify called the top 100. Like typical [35:55] corporate event. [35:56] And I for fun take about companies that [35:59] I do. Like it's one of the things I do [36:01] for fun is like learn about history of [36:02] companies. [36:04] And on that flight for no reason at all, [36:07] genuinely no reason at all, I picked [36:08] OpenDoor. Like let me learn about [36:10] OpenDoor. Okay. [36:12] And then [36:14] I became and then I spent every weekend [36:16] for like [36:17] four weekends in a row [36:19] like taking apart modeling OpenDoor, [36:21] taking apart things, screwing it, taking [36:23] through the product, using the product. [36:25] And got to a point where my wife and I [36:27] at dinner were basically only talking [36:28] about OpenDoor for a few weeks. [36:31] You sound like a barrel of laughs, by [36:32] the way. I'm Yeah. Yeah. [laughter] Like [36:35] my wife. [36:36] And then I I texted uh Keith in March. [36:42] And you knew him? [36:43] This I knew Yeah, I knew Keith through a [36:45] boy I knew Keith through close ventures. [36:48] I messaged him saying, "Hey, I've talked [36:50] to my wife. [36:51] Um we're going to go all in and we're [36:54] going to spend our entire net worth [36:57] to take OpenDoor private. [36:59] Like my wife and I are going to do it. [37:01] Like [37:02] like sell everything, spend every last [37:03] thing I have, leverage ourselves as much [37:05] as we can, and take OpenDoor private. [37:08] And what was the company worth at the [37:09] time? Uh [37:11] few a few hundred million. Okay. But I [37:13] said Keith, "Are you going to do it with [37:14] me?" Like I was like point on. [37:16] Um [37:17] And he said, "Yeah, let's talk about [37:18] it." And then [37:21] we had one conversation [37:23] and then the company did did [37:25] this insane genuinely insane financing [37:29] that basically made it impossible to [37:31] acquire the company and take it private. [37:32] It was just like [37:34] And my plan wasn't to run the company. [37:35] My plan was just like stay at Shopify, [37:38] join the board of the company [37:40] and just like yell at them over like [37:43] product choices they were making. Yeah. [37:45] Uh cuz I I generally never thought I [37:46] would leave Shopify. I just [37:48] really liked the company. [37:50] Um so I didn't I'm up by April and May I [37:53] said I should kind of given up on it. [37:55] Uh and then I got a call one Sunday [37:58] uh from Paul De Verza who was a [37:59] recruiter. [38:01] And Paul had been trying to get me to [38:02] get me to go [38:04] be a CEO bunch of other companies and I [38:06] had always said, "Hey, I'm not [38:07] interested. I love my job." [38:09] He called me on Sunday [38:11] and I picked up the phone like, "Paul, I [38:14] appreciate you. I love my wife. [38:16] I haven't seen her for a while. I'm not [38:17] interested. Whatever it is, I'm not [38:18] interested." [38:19] He said, "Kaz, it's a public company CEO [38:21] job." [38:23] And I said, "Paul, I'm not interested." [38:25] And then I had to take away. I said, [38:27] "Unless it's OpenDoor." Okay. [38:29] And then he said "It is. How fast can [38:32] you get to New York?" [38:34] I was in New York in about 5 hours after [38:36] that. [38:37] And from that conversation to me being [38:39] announced as the CEO of OpenDoor was [38:41] maybe 15, 16 days. [38:44] And behind the scenes, Keith and Eric [38:47] who's the original founder and Keith the [38:49] original investor [38:50] were they just baking on it? And did [38:52] they reach out to Paul and say, "We want [38:54] to hire Kaz as our CEO." Like how did [38:57] What What the hell happened? Yeah, I I [38:59] think Keith and Eric has actually [39:01] decided that they were going to like [39:03] rescue the company. Yeah. [39:05] And [39:06] they need they need a CEO. [39:09] And I actually don't know how the [39:10] conversations went. Mhm. Um because I [39:13] think they were trying to do it for a [39:15] while, but I actually actually ask Keith [39:17] how the conversation went. [39:19] Uh but yeah, I [39:21] my input to it was a phone call on a [39:23] Sunday from Paul saying, "Hey, [39:26] like are you interested in this?" [39:28] And it generally happened very fast. [39:30] Like 2 and 1/2 weeks, I think, was the [39:32] entire time. [39:33] >> mechanically, you three said, "All [39:36] right, we're going to throw it to CEO." [39:38] Did you buy all the shares up? Like how [39:41] the How do you take over a public [39:43] company like that? It doesn't I haven't [39:45] seen this. [39:47] I don't know. This is not a common [39:49] occurrence. [39:51] What happened was like I met with the [39:52] existing board. Yeah. This board had a [39:55] CEO search. Yeah. [39:57] Um they said hey under what conditions [40:00] would you [40:01] join [40:01] >> take this job? [40:03] They were incredibly kind and generous. [40:04] Like the existing board was desperately [40:06] trying to fix the company. Yeah. Like [40:07] they realized that like they had been [40:09] changed and [40:10] the previous CEO had left. And so I told [40:13] them hey like [40:14] I want the following board members on [40:16] the board. [40:18] And I want you to promise me that you [40:20] will not care about what it looks like [40:22] for a while. [40:24] Because [40:25] like I'm not [40:27] a caretaker type. I intend to build [40:29] product [40:30] for for a living. [40:32] So it was actually very [40:35] surprisingly easy conversation. [40:38] It was it was whirlwind and I remember [40:39] it was like the night before [40:43] the announcement I was with my family in [40:44] New York. [40:46] And it was 3:30 a.m. [40:49] And my wife was sleeping in the hotel [40:51] room so I couldn't be in the hotel room. [40:52] But I was on a call pacing up and down [40:56] uh Central Park West because I didn't [40:57] want anyone to overhear me talking cuz I [40:59] was talking about a public company. [41:02] Like [41:03] figure out how to do this. I said it was [41:05] it was intense. Just genuinely intense. [41:09] But not hard. Like it was like everyone [41:12] was trying to solve a problem. [41:14] And so you three didn't buy the company. [41:16] You all joined the board. You obviously [41:18] got a bunch of shares. [41:20] And I guess the other two did as well. [41:22] Well they invested they invested in so [41:23] yeah [41:24] if they did a pipe and they invested in [41:26] the company. I see. [41:28] And what happened to the board? [41:30] Uh the few of them remained few of them [41:31] left. It was like they refreshed the [41:33] board. Uh the board is excellent. Just [41:36] excellent board. [41:37] I'm very happy with them. [41:39] Um I would put up our board against any [41:41] board. [41:42] You you talk about it as a refounding. [41:45] Mhm. The more should more public [41:47] companies do this? [41:49] Yes. [41:50] Yes. [41:51] I think it is like you are uh look [41:54] I think professional managers are good [41:58] at managing a decline. [42:00] Like a slow decline. You don't have to [42:01] it doesn't have to be a big decline. [42:03] Yeah. But the [42:04] exothermic power that leads to [42:07] extraordinary outcomes is not found in [42:10] professional managers. It just isn't. [42:13] So you what you end up having is these [42:15] periods of like up and then s- very slow [42:17] decline. [42:18] And eventually General Electric happens, [42:21] right? [42:22] This like wonderful like American [42:24] company and it didn't have a refounding [42:26] moment and it is now but it is. [42:29] Um whereas Microsoft has had a [42:31] refounding for example. Like a very [42:33] obvious one. Yes. [42:35] I don't think they used that word but [42:36] that's very clearly what happened. Yeah. [42:39] Um So the question is not whether the [42:41] founder is there or not. The question is [42:43] whether the founder seat is taken or [42:45] not. [42:47] Like is someone occupying the founder [42:48] seat yes or no? [42:51] Um and otherwise because what happens [42:54] Now look I don't think every company can [42:56] do this. I don't I think some companies [42:57] are structurally not set up for this. [42:59] Most conglomerate are not. Like if [43:01] you're a conglomerate it's very hard to [43:02] do this. [43:04] But if you're a [43:06] product company you require like [43:10] exothermic pressure [43:13] uh on the system. [43:15] Uh and you know it has upsides and [43:17] downsides. [43:18] It could go well or it can go poorly. [43:21] Um but it is certainly not managing a [43:23] decline. [43:24] One of the things that surprised me [43:28] was [43:29] you joined [43:32] you hadn't really even said anything and [43:34] the market cap went up by I don't know [43:37] six seven X. [43:39] I know you're incredibly bullish about [43:41] it and you're very long-term thinker [43:42] about anything it's amazing. Were you [43:45] even surprised about how much the stock [43:46] price went up when you joined? This will [43:48] be odd but I I genuinely honestly don't [43:51] think about the stock price. I really [43:52] don't. It's very I know it's it sounds [43:54] odd to say. [43:55] I don't think about it is not [43:58] I think what I do is correlated over a [44:00] long term with a stock price and not in [44:03] the short one. Mhm. Like I I have talked [44:06] to company about the stock price twice [44:08] since I joined. And both times it has [44:11] been to say something along the lines [44:12] like this. [44:14] The stock price going up 15% doesn't [44:16] mean we're 15% smarter. [44:19] It just doesn't. [44:20] Like [44:22] um what it mean our job is to create [44:25] value and solve problems for our users. [44:29] If we do that well over a long enough [44:31] period time [44:33] the company becomes valuable. Mhm. [44:35] I don't genuinely understand CEOs that [44:39] have the stock price on a Bloomberg [44:41] terminal in their office. [44:44] I I gently I believe I owe a duty to our [44:47] shareholders to deliver value to them. [44:49] Or they put CNBC or Bloomberg on because [44:52] it just creates [44:54] a knot in your stomach and such [44:56] short-term behavior. Here's Here's the [44:58] thing watching ESPN does not make you a [45:01] good professional quarterback. No it [45:03] doesn't. [45:04] Watching CNBC does not make you a good [45:06] professional CEO. It just doesn't. Like [45:08] I think it makes you worse. [45:10] Because you start to think very [45:12] short-term about things. Yeah. [45:14] You look I I owe I view it as my duty to [45:16] deliver value for our shareholders. I'm [45:18] not denying that. It's their money. Like [45:21] they own shares in the company they're a [45:22] company. [45:24] But [45:25] I think our shareholders should expect [45:27] me to deliver value over a long period [45:29] of time and should be mostly agnostic to [45:32] day-to-day. [45:33] Yeah. Okay. In Silicon Valley in tech [45:37] turnarounds are extremely rare. [45:40] Mhm. Like very rare. If something starts [45:42] going down [45:44] it's it it doesn't happen a lot that it [45:46] turns around. [45:48] Um [45:49] why is it different? [45:50] I mean there are examples of this. There [45:52] are examples of successful turnarounds. [45:53] There aren't that many. I agree with [45:55] you. But because most of the teams that [45:56] have tried to a turnaround haven't done [45:58] it like this. [46:00] The most successful turn around [46:01] obviously is Apple. [46:03] Like very clearly like [46:06] and by the way Apple was in much more [46:08] trouble [46:09] than OpenDoor is today. Like objectively [46:11] more trouble. Like worse [46:13] worse position. Yeah. Um [46:15] Like I I don't think there's that many [46:17] lessons to be learned about why [46:20] professional CEOs fail. [46:22] I think the um [46:24] management types can't really [46:27] like I said slow decline or slow climb [46:30] not significant change in direction. [46:31] That's just not [46:32] >> think the problem people have so so many [46:34] venture capitalists are holding [46:35] companies that are going sideways. [46:37] And you think the playbook is okay bring [46:40] someone in but it's refounding and [46:42] really shake it hard. Do do it like like [46:46] like Steve Jobs. Don't make incremental [46:48] change. Don't change pricing and [46:50] packaging. Don't spin out one thing. [46:52] Look I think um [46:55] the the going state of companies Mhm. [46:58] Like the the the existing inertia is [47:00] real. Yeah. And usually when things are [47:04] going sideways it's not because one [47:06] thing is going poorly. [47:08] It's because you're in a death spiral. [47:09] Yeah. [47:11] Right? [47:12] And what you need to change when you're [47:13] in a death spiral is everything. Yeah. [47:16] Got it. [47:17] Everything must change because [47:21] the alternative is [47:23] bad. [47:24] And like what happens unfortunately [47:28] sometimes [47:29] is manage managers are incentivized to [47:32] delay death. [47:34] But I think this is actually why RSUs [47:36] are incredibly harmful to CEOs. [47:39] I think professional managers when they [47:41] get RSUs they're incentivized to delay [47:44] the inevitable sometimes. [47:45] >> [clears throat] [47:45] >> more. I liked the world when it was [47:47] ISOs. [47:49] Yeah like it's it's like I think it's a [47:50] very bad change in structure. Like [47:52] management teams should be incentivized [47:54] on outcomes. Like performance-based over [47:57] everything. Mhm. [47:59] Because I have zero incentive to manage [48:01] a decline. I don't I just don't have [48:02] one. Like How are you How are you How [48:04] did you all decide to pay you? [48:08] Um [48:09] >> Is it Is it Elon style package? Like [48:11] what? [48:12] Not that Not that size but like the [48:14] structure. [48:15] I mean what I wanted was [48:17] um [48:18] I asked for a salary of a dollar and [48:21] options. I'm like I would like options. [48:22] Okay. But the combination of Delaware [48:24] and SEC have made granting options in [48:27] this particular way very difficult to [48:30] in public companies. [48:32] So we essentially like constructed a [48:35] package that looks a lot like just [48:37] options. You use PSUs. We use PSUs with [48:40] like PSUs have zero value below a [48:42] certain price some value above certain [48:44] price. So I kind of like how it looks [48:46] like. Some of them have like strike [48:48] prices that are high some of them like [48:49] just just they're very [48:52] similar in their structure. [48:54] I think this is actually like the right [48:55] alignment between me and the [48:57] shareholders. Mhm. [48:59] Are you two Um [49:01] Because otherwise like [49:02] it's very Look Wall Street is full [49:05] genuinely full [49:07] of [49:09] um [49:10] like Harvard MBA types who have driven [49:13] the companies to zero while getting [49:15] rich. [49:16] Like I just [49:18] And it's actually very terrible man. [49:20] It's terrible because you want companies [49:21] to matter. It's not all companies. Let's [49:24] not exaggerate. No no no. [49:26] You want Hey you want companies to [49:27] matter. You want companies to matter. [49:29] Like any company needs to matter. [49:32] Now I don't think all Harvard MBAs are [49:33] terrible. Clearly not. Very clearly not. [49:36] But I do think [49:38] there are too many examples of people [49:39] who got rich destroying companies. I [49:41] agree. Uh and I think the compensation [49:43] plan is at our our all wrong. You're [49:46] coming into a company that was probably [49:48] not AI native, was probably not product [49:51] oriented, [49:53] and you said something interesting, you [49:55] want to be the most aggressive software [49:57] company ever. I'm curious about that. [49:59] I'm also curious about how do you take [50:01] what was likely a very non-AI company [50:04] and make it AI native? [50:07] Um kind of like this is kind of like the [50:09] result of what happened. [50:12] We had a [50:13] uh company-wide hackathon [50:15] 10 days ago, I think. And uh we have uh [50:18] people we call HPMs. These are people [50:20] who essentially renovate homes. They're [50:21] people who manage your English funds. [50:23] Yep. [50:24] One of them wrote a piece of software. [50:27] There's a guy who was like essentially [50:28] GC. [50:29] Wrote a piece of software that automated [50:32] away his entire job. [50:35] And he's now manager of a bunch of [50:36] pieces of software to do that. Okay. [50:38] This guy had never written a piece of [50:39] code in his life before. Like was not [50:42] opened up cursor, opened up Gumloop, [50:44] and like we helped like we had we had [50:46] coaching, we had like [50:48] the folks from Cursor and Gumloop and [50:49] OpenAI were in our offices teaching [50:51] people how to do things. And so end [50:53] result is that I think everyone at [50:55] OpenDoor uses AI every day now. Mhm. And [50:58] you think that the the hackathon sparked [51:00] that? [51:01] I think hackathon was us testing whether [51:02] we had built the muscle. Yeah. [51:05] >> 10 weeks. [51:06] What changed was like look, um [51:10] I had a very honest conversation with [51:11] the company, which is that hey, like the [51:13] first line in your job description is [51:16] you default to AI. [51:18] And what do I mean by you default to AI? [51:20] Because there's a very real thing that [51:21] happens. Every company has a performance [51:23] management system. All of us do. Yeah. [51:26] Most companies lie about the purpose of [51:28] performance management system. [51:30] Like we're a professional sports team. [51:32] The job of a professional that is [51:34] performance management system is to tell [51:35] you whether you get to play on the team [51:36] or not. That's the job. That's why the [51:38] company built it. [51:39] So, I will evaluate people at OpenDoor [51:41] about on whether they default to AI or [51:44] not as the first question in the [51:46] performance management system. Got it. [51:48] Okay. [51:49] That's a good way to do it. [51:51] Um [51:52] so, I'm out I'm listening to this pod. [51:55] I'm a VP of XYZ at [51:58] a public company. [51:59] I want to do what you did Mhm. [52:01] eventually. [52:02] What advice do you have for [52:05] people working in the middle of [52:07] HubSpot, in the middle of Facebook, in [52:10] the middle of whatever [52:13] Google, if they want to be you someday? [52:17] I didn't plan to do this. This was [52:19] there's no 10-year secret plan for [52:20] Cassia public company CEO. That just [52:22] doesn't exist anywhere. Yep. [52:24] Um what I did was I decided I would have [52:28] a career rather than a job. [52:33] Like I didn't really ever care about how [52:34] much I got paid. I generally didn't [52:36] really, honestly. What's the difference [52:38] you wanted a career not a job? Just [52:40] unpack that. So, a job is something you [52:43] do for someone else in order to get [52:45] paid. Yep. [52:47] Career? A career is something you work [52:50] on every day for yourself. [52:52] There's there's a very real difference. [52:54] There's a very real difference in how [52:55] you react to the thing. And and most [52:58] people have jobs, and that's totally [52:59] okay. It's totally okay for most people. [53:01] Most people like are like, "Hey, [53:04] I opt my my life for something else [53:06] other than what I do at work." That's [53:08] totally okay. [53:10] But, [53:11] I don't. I optimize my life for my [53:14] career. [53:16] And my wife optimizes her life for my [53:18] career. [53:19] And my kids optimize their childhood for [53:22] this thing we are doing together as a [53:24] family. [53:25] Like my kids know what OpenDoor is. [53:28] Like I have a conversation about [53:30] building products with my 6-year-old, [53:31] and we have like this is what we do. [53:32] This is our conver- this is like our [53:34] dinner conversations. Mhm. [53:36] Like our job as a family, we're all in [53:38] as a family. [53:40] Like we're not like this is not a [53:42] this is our main mission. [53:44] That's that's the outcome of years of [53:46] essentially saying, "I will give a lot [53:49] of about the thing I'm doing at [53:51] work." [53:53] Every single day I will care a lot, and [53:55] I will self-identify with my work. [53:58] Not with my ideas, with my work. This [53:59] And this, by the way, is is very odd cuz [54:01] like I've um [54:03] the advice you get when you're young is [54:05] almost certainly terrible. Um [54:08] my advice to you if you're young is work [54:10] all the hours. [54:11] Like if your manager is letting you work [54:14] work, [54:15] just work all the hours because [54:17] otherwise you will not become good at [54:19] the thing that is your craft, your [54:21] discipline. Like if you were a [54:23] woodworker [54:24] 200 years ago, you'd be in the shop [54:27] learning what it feels like to like cut [54:29] a piece of wood. The feeling would [54:32] matter. [54:33] And you need to discover when you are [54:35] young what your breaking points are. And [54:37] the only way you can do that is working [54:39] hard. Tom Brady threw a lot of passes [54:41] before he got good. [54:43] And do you think people, young people, [54:46] should follow their passion? [54:49] Or is that kind of [54:51] I heard Scott Galloway recently [54:54] talking uh to a bunch of students, he [54:56] was like, [54:57] "A lot of rich people look back and they [54:59] say follow your passion, but they really [55:00] didn't. [55:01] >> [laughter] [55:02] >> They were just practical, and they dug [55:04] in on something that was nasty." [55:06] Uh I think this way you should look for. [55:09] You should think how can I be of service [55:11] to the world? Mhm. [55:13] How can I be of service? Mhm. [55:17] And if you think of it like that, I [55:18] think things usually end up working out [55:20] okay. Mhm. If you think what can I get, [55:23] things usually end up working poorly. [55:25] Mhm. Like [55:27] and this is like true in relationships, [55:29] by the way, as much as it is in your [55:30] career. Like you want to be you yourself [55:35] as a net addition to other things around [55:37] you. Mhm. [55:39] Okay, I you've talked about your family [55:41] a bunch, your wife a bunch. I've seen [55:42] you tweeting about it. [55:44] I'm 58 and I've never been married. [55:47] Why am I doing it all wrong? [55:49] Man, I don't know if you're doing it all [55:51] wrong, but if the average person was [55:53] doing what you're doing, they would be [55:54] doing it wrong. I think the averages are [55:56] like important, but there are people on [55:58] the extreme ends to whom rules don't [56:00] apply. [56:01] I wrote a book about this. It's called [56:03] Get Married. [56:04] Why people get married early, [56:06] and why should they design their [56:08] marriage like yours? You've got an [56:09] unusual setup here. [56:10] I don't think everyone should design [56:12] their marriage like me, but I think most [56:14] the book I wrote is essentially is the [56:16] health, wealth, and happiness impacts of [56:19] marriage on men. [56:20] That's what the book is about. It's [56:22] I wrote a book on men, so I wrote about [56:23] men. [56:24] The data is undeniable. Yeah. [56:27] There are types of cancer [56:30] where being married is as good an [56:32] indicator of survival rate than [56:33] chemotherapy. [56:35] Like that's that's a very real thing. [56:37] Now, I'm not saying all cancers, [56:38] obviously I'm not stupid. [56:40] Um but if you live in the United States [56:42] or Canada, [56:44] if you do the following three things in [56:46] the following order, [56:48] your odds of being unhappy [56:51] or poor [56:52] are almost zero. [56:54] That is graduate high school, [56:57] get some work experience, get married [56:59] before you're 30. [57:00] Okay. [57:01] >> those three things in that order, [57:04] the odds are [57:05] like you'll have a real happy, [57:08] fulfilling life. Now, that's not for [57:10] everyone. Like you should know yourself [57:12] and be good. But, you should also be [57:14] honest enough with yourself to recognize [57:16] that the odds are you are not special. [57:20] The odds are the thing that has worked [57:22] in history for humanity will work for [57:24] you. [57:25] Now, some people are different. Like I'm [57:27] different in some ways than everyone [57:28] else. Brian, you're different in some [57:30] ways, possibly in this way than everyone [57:32] else. We undervalue [57:35] as a society the importance of marriage, [57:38] and more importantly the importance of [57:40] kids. [57:41] Like I am a better CEO because I have [57:44] kids. Tell me why. [57:46] Um it is a lonely job. [57:49] It is deeply lonely. [57:52] And [57:55] my kids know the mission of OpenDoor and [57:57] why I do what I do, and they ask me [57:59] about it, and they're proud of me for [58:01] doing it. Mhm. And we have conversations [58:04] that have nothing to do with work or [58:05] something to do with work, [58:06] but it makes the [58:09] hard less hard. I'll tell you um a [58:11] story. [58:12] There was a day at Shopify where we did [58:14] a riff, and I insisted that I would exit [58:16] the most people. I I would have more [58:18] conversations than anyone. [58:20] I had rented a uh an office in Palo Alto [58:22] cuz I was in Palo Alto, and I got to the [58:25] office in that office at 3:45 a.m., I [58:27] think, [58:28] Palo Alto time. And I started having [58:30] one-on-one conversations, [58:32] and I had I finished around 7:00 p.m., [58:35] Palo Alto time. I unlocked the office, [58:37] Mhm. [58:37] and I hung up my last uh hangout, [58:41] I burst out crying. Yeah. Just like [58:44] burst out could not stop myself. [58:49] And I walked we were in an Airbnb, I [58:52] walked to the Airbnb where my son ran [58:55] and gave me a hug. [58:57] You mean [58:58] And it was like [59:03] like daddy mode kicked in, [59:05] and I was just [59:06] it changed the day. That day will still [59:09] go down in history as the worst day of [59:11] my career. Yeah. Um [59:14] I felt [59:17] I felt a deep pain. [59:20] And by the way, I will I genuinely don't [59:21] think I will ever recover from it. [59:23] Um [59:25] but [59:26] like I could do it because of my son. [59:30] Mhm. [59:31] And because of my family. that was [59:32] deep-seated, so [59:34] Alex, you've had good karma. [59:36] Yeah. Talk talk about karma and I'm I'm [59:39] going to give you like [59:40] I was just listening to Ben Horowitz [59:42] talk about how [59:45] he's kind of the opposite on karma. He's [59:46] like, "Life is deeply unfair. Get over [59:49] it." [59:49] And like, he didn't say he doesn't [59:51] believe in karma, but I feel like I I [59:53] was listening to him the other day and I [59:55] read about your karma thing. [59:57] Talk about karma. [59:59] Alex, life is not unfair. It just isn't. [60:01] Okay. You are destined for something. [60:04] Your job in life is to discover that [60:05] destiny and discover your mission. Mhm. [60:08] And you need to work on that and work on [60:10] yourself till you discover it. Mhm. Um [60:13] And I think that could be different for [60:15] anyone. [60:16] Um and the more good you do, the more [60:19] good you get back. Mhm. Now, it may be [60:22] difficult. I'm not saying it's easy. It [60:24] may be difficult. It is not unfair. [60:26] Mhm. Um look, I'm [60:29] I'm more comfortable with this because I [60:30] think we talked about it in front of it. [60:32] Yep. Yep. [60:34] But there's a deep purpose that I have. [60:38] And my purpose is to make it such that [60:41] the average family can afford a good [60:43] home [60:44] Mhm. and raise a good family. [60:46] And that's where we can reduce the [60:47] friction [60:49] and the cost of home ownership. [60:52] That's deeply fulfilling. It is [60:54] difficult but fulfilling. [60:56] >> And I find that difficult and fulfilling [60:59] are highly correlated. [61:01] Yes, I hear you, too. [61:03] Okay. I wish you great karma in your new [61:06] venture. Appreciate you coming on the [61:08] pod. You are very very unusual, [61:10] interesting, fascinating person. Thank [61:12] you for coming on. [61:14] Thanks, Scott. I appreciate it, man. [61:16] Okay, I hope you liked that episode with [61:17] Kaz. I think he's awesome. He's one of [61:20] the most intentional people I've ever [61:23] met. Never mind intentional CEOs, [61:25] intentional people. His leadership [61:28] style, the way his family works, how he [61:30] defines success, [61:32] pretty much everything. He overrides [61:34] every default and he does it over and [61:36] over again. [61:37] Now, [61:39] I actually think this is a very good [61:41] podcast for existing CEOs. If I were an [61:45] existing CEO of a company, it's [61:47] interesting time to be a CEO. I think I [61:50] would approach it and pretend like if [61:53] today were my first day as an outside [61:56] CEO joining my company, I were [61:58] unencumbered by all the good, bad, and [62:00] indifferent decisions I made, all of the [62:02] baggage, all of the stuff that's [62:04] happened. What would I do if today were [62:06] my first day as that outside CEO? [62:08] That's the way I think people should be [62:10] thinking today, particularly with all [62:12] this going on in the world. And you [62:15] don't do that, [62:16] you run the risk that the board's going [62:18] to do that for you. [music] And so, I [62:19] like his playbook around that. He's an [62:21] interesting guy. It was one of those [62:22] conversations that really kind of made [62:24] me re-examine how I'm showing up, not [62:26] just at work, but everywhere. [62:28] And re-examining my own defaults, and I [62:31] wonder if you had the same reaction. [62:32] Like, what are the defaults that you're [62:34] rethinking based on this? [62:36] Anyway, I hope you liked it. If [music] [62:37] you want to chat about it, I'm at [62:39] @bhalligan on X. Let's keep the [62:41] conversation rolling. [62:44] >> [music]