Goldman's Solomon Ditched Apple Deal Over Regulatory, Margin Drag

高盛所罗门因监管与利润率拖累放弃苹果合作 对消费业务的剥离与隔离表明，在应对高风险战略转型时，老道的判断与风险管理远比单纯的聪明才智更重要。 在这场深度对话中，David Solomon回顾了他的职业历程，并探讨了让高盛传承百余年的核心价值观：极度负责、风险管理以及以客户为中心。他分享了重大战略转型的幕后洞察，包括因日益加重的经济和监管干扰而决定收缩消费银行业务并退出备受瞩目的Apple Card合作。结合对自身领导模式和过往指导经历的反思，Solomon对硅谷常见的趋势提出了不同看法，强调在掌舵庞大组织时，经验、自省和个人韧性远比单纯的智力更为关键。最后，他概述了高盛在疫情期间如何大力投入面对面协作以维护其学徒制文化，并务实地指出人工智能将作为增强而非取代人际关系与信任的工具。 高盛集团 CEO David Solomon 指出，比起单纯追求绝对智力，在面对艰难的“51/49”决策时，经验、韧性与人际连接更为关键；优秀的组织领导者必须敢于直面自身弱点，打造全面的综合能力，而非仅依赖已有长处。 (7:17) 高盛在出现重大失误时推崇极致的担责文化，Solomon 以自己刚接手股票资本市场业务时、因度假错过埃森哲 20 亿美元交易后立即连夜返岗处理为例，强调领导者在事情出错时必须主动迎向问题并亲自担责。 (15:51) 高盛决定逐步退出与 Apple 的合作及消费银行业务，反思了从零搭建平台而非外部收购的文化惯性；该业务营收贡献不足 5%，却占用了 40% 的舆论关注和大量管理资源，果断止损是为了重新聚焦驱动市值的核心业务。 (21:00) 针对企业的长久维系，Solomon 认为追求百年寿命本身是个“随机漫步”，核心在于专注做好当下的业务与客户服务；为防止疫情远程办公侵蚀高盛特有的“学徒文化”，他耗时 15 个月亲自参与 20 场晚宴，与全体 450 名合伙人重新对齐卓越标准与核心战略。 (33:41)

Goldman Sachs CEO David Solomon argues that leading an established public enterprise requires building comprehensive personal capabilities, exercising disciplined risk management, and actively stewarding culture rather than optimizing for raw intellect or an arbitrary 100-year corporate lifespan. Across major strategic pivots, executive succession, and organizational scaling, Solomon contends that long-term survival hinges on accountability, human relationships, and navigating difficult trade-offs when high-profile initiatives wobble. Judgment, Accountability, and the Whole Package (7:17) Solomon rejects the Silicon Valley premise that executives should solely lean into their strengths and hire around weaknesses. Ascending to lead a 155-year-old institution involves competing within a deep talent pool where easy problems never reach the top desk; CEOs primarily face "51/49 judgments" and must choose the best of difficult options. In this environment, Solomon values experience and emotional resilience over raw intelligence, maintaining that even exceptional intellect fails without personal connection, determination, and judgment under pressure. This focus on judgment is tied to immediate, personal accountability. Solomon illustrates this through an early career misstep as head of equity capital markets, when Goldman Sachs missed out on leading a $2 billion equity deal for Accenture while he was on a 40th birthday golf trip in Ireland. Rather than deflecting blame across the Atlantic, he returned to New York overnight to face the fallout directly, reinforcing the firm's cultural expectation that leaders must run toward problems rather than away from them. Strategic Discipline and Unwinding Costly Partnerships (21:00) A crucial executive test is knowing when to pull back from large strategic bets. Goldman Sachs originally entered consumer banking through its Marcus platform and an Apple credit card partnership to diversify away from wholesale funding. However, building the business organically from scratch proved resource-intensive. Following macroeconomic shifts after the 2022 invasion of Ukraine and rising regulatory scrutiny, the consumer segment consumed roughly 40% of media and public attention despite contributing less than 5% of firm revenues. Recognizing that consumer banking had become an operational distraction from core businesses that drive market capitalization, Goldman's leadership chose to unwind the initiative. Securing approval required months of persistent discussions to overcome initial board resistance. Solomon notes that most corporate partnerships fail without deep alignment of incentives and robust governance, emphasizing that in financial services, a disciplined "second mover advantage" often safeguards an institution better than stubborn persistence in peripheral ventures. Cultural Stewardship and the Apprenticeship Model (33:41) Culture in a large institution does not sustain itself automatically; it requires deliberate top-down amplification and bottom-up reinforcement. With 50% of Goldman Sachs's roughly 49,000 employees in their twenties, the firm relies heavily on an in-person apprenticeship model. When remote work during the COVID-19 pandemic caused this fabric to fray, executive leadership initiated a 15-month program, sending all 450 partners offsite in cohorts of 25 for intensive two-day sessions. Solomon personally attended a three-to-four-hour dinner with every single cohort to realign the firm's leadership on core values and business strategy. These sessions resulted in a collective re-commitment to in-person excellence, countering the idea that financial advisory work can operate with identical efficacy from home. Solomon contends that while young startups operate with cultural infancy, multi-generational institutions require sustained, hands-on investment to maintain shared standards across client service, partnership, integrity, and excellence. Longevity, Succession Serendipity, and Technological Leverage (38:41) Solomon views aiming for a century of corporate longevity as the wrong strategic lens, describing company survival as a "random walk" across shifting competitive landscapes. Goldman Sachs itself survived near-fatal moments, including the 1929 stock market crash and the 1970s Penn Central commercial paper default, primarily through vigilant risk management and an ability to slow down during volatility. Similarly, executive succession depends heavily on timing and luck; Solomon notes that had predecessor Lloyd Blankfein stepped down during an illness in 2015 instead of remaining until 2018, Gary Cohn would likely have assumed the CEO seat. Addressing technological shifts, Solomon characterizes artificial intelligence not as a replacement for human judgment, but as an operational multiplier. Drawing a parallel to his entry-level experience in 1984—manually extracting stock data from Wall Street Journal microfiche over several hours to plot charts by hand—he emphasizes that while modern tools reduce rote tasks to seconds, core businesses built on client trust, advice, and relationship management remain inherently human. Solomon's leadership perspective reflects the operating reality of a capital-intensive, multi-trillion-dollar financial institution where downside risk containment often outweighs rapid experimentation. His emphasis on all-around capability, formal rotational seasoning, and extensive in-person stewardship provides a counterweight to startup orthodoxies, though executing such models remains structurally challenging for smaller companies lacking deep balance sheets or rotational bench strength.

高盛集团首席执行官David Solomon认为，掌舵大型成熟金融机构与初创公司有着本质差异，领袖不能仅凭单项特长或个人威权立足，而必须兼具全方位素质、严苛的风控意识与对组织文化的持续投入。他强调，面对重大战略失误必须果断止损，而企业的长期存续也非刻意追求百年愿景所能达成，关键在于深耕客户信任并在顺境逆境中保持清醒与定力。 领导者修养：经验权重与极端责任制 (7:17) Solomon对硅谷流行的“仅深耕长处并招募他人补足短板”理念提出异议。他主张，在拥有深厚人才储备的老牌金融机构中，晋升往往受到机缘与时机的影响，领袖必须全面修养自身综合素质（the whole package）。在人才选拔方面，相较于纯粹的智力斜率（slope），他更青睐“足够聪明”即可，并强调人际链接、坚韧执着以及不可替代的实战经验。在顺境中经验往往被低估，但当面临51对49的艰难抉择或必须在“两个糟糕选项中选择较好者”时，经验带来的判断力才是决胜关键。 此外，高盛的文化要求管理者承担极端责任（extreme accountability）。Solomon回顾了自己刚接管股票资本市场业务时的一段经历：在他赴爱尔兰度过40岁生日高尔夫之旅期间，高盛痛失了此前曾由其主导IPO的埃森哲（Accenture）价值20亿美元的股票交易。获悉消息后，他立刻连夜赶回纽约并在次日清晨直奔办公室应对局面。他指出，优秀的管理者绝不能逃避问题，在事情偏离轨道时必须主动迎上前去并迅速解决危机。 战略止损：退出消费金融与Apple合作 (17:48) 复盘高盛近年来极具挑战性的战略转向，Solomon解释了逐步收缩消费金融业务并最终退出Apple Card合作的缘由。高盛起初发展消费金融与Marcus平台，是为了降低对极不稳定的批发融资渠道的依赖，建立更稳定的数字化存款基础。然而事后来看，高盛犯下了文化层面的自负错误——盲目相信“高盛聚集了最聪明的人，必然能摸清门道”，试图从零自建消费金融平台，而非通过外部并购获取成熟经验。 到了2022年，受俄乌冲突加剧的市场波动以及监管环境收紧影响，有机扩张消费业务演变为巨大的资源负担。尽管该业务仅占高盛整体营收的不到5%，却占用了40%的公众与媒体关注，严重分散了管理层对核心盈利业务的精力。面对董事会起初数月“不、不、不”的强烈阻力，管理团队最终通过充分沟通推动了剥离与战略调整。Solomon借此告诫，企业间的深度合作极其艰难，若缺乏紧密的利益契合点、协同机制与严格治理，即便是巨头携手也难免陷入困境。 资本驱动增长与学徒制文化的代际重塑 (31:28) 针对初创公司规模扩大导致运营放缓的困扰，Solomon指出高盛的规模扩张并非仅仅依赖员工人数线性增长，而是主要依靠在核心业务上倾注更多资本以抢占市场份额与提升回报。在其任内，高盛全职员工规模从约3.6万至3.8万人增至约4.8万至4.9万人，而平均年营收则从340亿美元跃升至550亿至600亿美元，市值更从600亿至700亿美元增长至约2500亿美元。同时，高盛还建立了管理资产达3.3万亿至3.4万亿美元的主动资产管理业务。 在组织文化维系方面，面对疫情远程办公对高盛“学徒制文化”（50%员工年龄在20多岁）带来的冲击，管理层投入了巨大精力重塑文化根基。在15个月的时间里，高盛将全部450名合伙人分为20个批次（每组25人）开展为期两天的脱产研讨，Solomon本人坚持出席了全部20场各长达3至4小时的晚宴。通过这一行动，高盛高层不仅重新确立了必须面对面协作指导以追求卓越的标准，也确保了核心团队对公司战略方向达成全面共识。 穿越周期：风控文化、接班机缘与AI定位 (38:41) Solomon认为，以百年存续为目标来经营企业是“错误的视角”，因为外部世界与竞争格局的剧变使长期存续呈现出“随机漫步”特征。高盛历史上曾多次濒临绝境（如1929年股市崩盘及1970年代宾夕法尼亚中央运输公司破产案），其能持续生存并非依赖激进冒险，而是源于极其严苛的风险管理体系与对“后发优势”的认可——在金融服务业中不必事事争第一，市场动荡时懂得主动放慢脚步才能避开杠杆毁灭。 这种不可预测性同样体现在高层接班与技术演进中。Solomon坦言自己出任CEO兼具运气的成分：若前任CEO Lloyd Blankfein在2015年生病时选择退隐，当时的总裁Gary Cohn很可能顺位接任，其本人的晋升很大程度上得益于时机的巧合。谈及AI的未来影响，Solomon认为技术革新虽然能将繁琐数据处理时间从数小时压缩至数秒（正如其1984年手工在坐标纸上绘制股票走势微缩胶片的经历），但AI主要是提高生产力的赋能工具，无法取代以人际信任、专业判断与深入咨询为基石的金融服务核心。 Solomon总结指出，企业的长久生命力无法单凭预先设计的百年蓝图来实现，而取决于在日常运营中坚守客户至上并恪守严格的风控纪律。在市场与技术环境剧烈变化的背景下，保持自我反思、主动承担责任，并在顺境中警惕傲慢，是无论百年金融巨头还是新生初创企业保持竞争力的关键所在。

[0:00] David Solomon: if you build trust with clients, if you take a long-term view, if you do the right thing, good things will happen. [1:53] Hank Paulson: Well, we're not going to do that, [7:17] David Solomon: You can't teach experience. [7:17] David Solomon: 51/49 judgments. [7:17] David Solomon: best of two shitty options. [15:51] David Solomon: When things don't go right, you have to run to them and you have to jump on them. [21:00] David Solomon: we've got lots of smart people and we can figure it out. [27:22] David Solomon: Most partnerships don't work, [27:22] David Solomon: client centricity is true north [27:22] David Solomon: conducting an orchestra [31:28] The host's old boss: We're not an orchestra, we're a jazz band, [36:48] David Solomon: There is no perfection, but excellence is something that you can choose. [38:41] David Solomon: the wrong lens. [38:41] David Solomon: littered with moments where the firm came this close to going out of business. [43:15] David Solomon: If the succession had happened in 2013 or 2014 or 2015, it wouldn't have been me, [286:54] David Solomon: a very powerful tool for very productive people. [293:59] Colin Angle: culture is how people make decisions when you're not in the room, [293:59] Jim Collins: Those who fail to acknowledge the role luck may have played in their success and thereby overestimate their own merit and capabilities will have succumbed to hubris.

[0:00] Goldman Sachs has been around for 155 [0:01] years and there's been a lot said about [0:03] Goldman Sachs's culture and Goldman [0:05] Sachs's culture is unique. But I would [0:06] also say it's constantly changing [0:09] >> and you better be working at defining [0:12] what you want it to be and constantly [0:14] reshaping it and amplifying what you [0:16] think really matters. The general ethos [0:18] of the firm is if you build trust with [0:21] clients, if you take a long-term view, [0:23] if you do the right thing, good things [0:25] will happen. And I I've watched that in [0:27] my career and I believe it deeply. [0:30] [music] [0:37] [music] [0:46] Okay, this is a special episode with [0:48] David Solomon, the CEO of Goldman Sachs, [0:50] an incredible company, been around 150 [0:54] years, just a terrific person in a [0:56] terrific company. We get into a whole [0:58] bunch of topics. One was decision-m and [1:01] in particular, you've got something [1:03] going, it's kind of wobbling. When do [1:06] you double down and when do you pull [1:08] away? and he's he recently has had a [1:10] Whopper decision where they had a [1:12] consumer partnership with Apple and they [1:15] recently basically walked away from that [1:17] partnership and so we get behind the [1:19] scenes on that decision. I think it was [1:20] pretty interesting. He credits culture a [1:22] lot with why they've been around for 150 [1:24] years. I've had a ton of CEOs and it's [1:27] really thrived. He's really thrived in [1:29] the job and we get into culture. Culture [1:31] is a big reason why HubSpot's only 19 [1:33] years has been successful as well. I [1:36] hope you like the episode. David is very [1:38] sharp. Uh I he joined the company. It [1:41] had a 40 billion market cap I believe [1:44] and now it's something like 160 billion [1:46] less than a decade later. So he's very [1:49] very good and very thoughtful. Hope you [1:51] enjoy it. Thanks for joining us. [1:53] >> Thank you for having me. [1:54] >> Um when I was a CEO, I really admired [1:58] Steve Jobs. Um I tried to emulate him. I [2:03] kind of really studied him and followed [2:04] his playbook and it largely served me [2:07] pretty well. Who's your Steve Jobs? [2:09] >> That's a great question. I, you know, [2:11] I'd start by saying that, you know, [2:13] Steve was obvious obviously [2:14] extraordinary in the context of what he [2:16] did. [2:17] >> Although I don't know that most public [2:21] company CEOs [2:23] could model Steve and get away with it [2:27] in uh in today's in today's world. But [2:30] he was extraordinary in terms of his his [2:32] his his focus, you know, his vision for [2:35] what he thought really mattered. I don't [2:38] I've thought a lot about this because [2:40] I've been asked similar questions, you [2:41] know, over the years. And I I don't have [2:43] a Steve Jobs. [2:45] >> One of the things on your Mount [2:46] Rushmore. [2:47] >> Well, I mean there there that you know, [2:48] I mentioned, you know, some people right [2:50] now that I, you know, I watch and I I I [2:52] think enormously high. I mentioned Satia [2:54] um Nadella and you know one of the [2:57] things I've learned from him in my own [2:59] journey as a CEO is he's an incredibly [3:02] empathetic leader [3:03] >> and you know it's hard you know to move [3:07] an organization and also exhibit empathy [3:11] >> um and um and so I've you know I've [3:14] watched some of what Sati has done you [3:16] know in that context because um you know [3:18] I think I think he leads with an [3:20] enormous amount of empathy besides the [3:21] fact that he's a great strategic thinker [3:22] and a whole bunch of other things. [3:24] >> Um he's done an extraordinary job with [3:26] uh with Microsoft [3:28] >> but then you also you know you can also [3:31] you know pick and choose you know people [3:34] that you know at times have led [3:37] extraordinary transformations. [3:39] you know his his journey is a different [3:42] one at this point for a variety of [3:44] reasons but there was a period of time [3:46] where I was really watching the way Bob [3:47] Iger was transforming Disney and you [3:51] know it was a difficult transformation [3:52] and so [3:54] I've tried to pick out things that are [3:58] going on with different CEOs and [4:00] constantly say what can I learn one of [4:01] the great advantages I have in my job is [4:04] part of my job is to travel around and [4:05] spend time with CEOs [4:06] >> interesting people [4:07] >> so you get with interesting people so [4:08] you get ask them, you know, why you [4:10] doing this? Why'd you do this? How did [4:12] this work? So, I get a lot of private [4:13] time with with CEOs to really reflect [4:16] and that's helped me a lot in my own my [4:18] own journey as a CEO. [4:20] >> You've worked for some legends, uh, [4:22] Lloyd Blankfine, Hank Pollson. Did they [4:26] mentor or coach you? Is there things you [4:28] took from them that were incredibly [4:31] valuable that all of us can learn from? [4:33] >> I learned a lot from both of them. And [4:34] you learned different. They they they [4:35] had different skills. They had different [4:37] personalities. into different things. [4:38] Lloyd was an incredible risk manager, an [4:40] incredible risk manager, and he had a he [4:43] had an incredible ability to really [4:48] sweat and worry about the things that [4:49] had a small probability of happening. [4:52] But boy oh boy, the fact that he was [4:55] that way when we went into the financial [4:56] crisis, you know, he was two steps ahead [4:59] a lot of other uh a lot of other bank [5:01] CEOs and I think was really [5:03] extraordinary as a risk manager in that [5:04] context. [5:05] >> [clears throat] [5:06] >> You know, Hank Hank was Hank was driven. [5:10] He had a great nose for client [5:12] relationships and how to get things [5:14] done. And Hank also, you know, Hank had [5:17] an incredible compass. And you know, one [5:20] of the things that I definitely [5:21] >> What do you mean by that? [5:23] >> He believe he we all need a compass, you [5:26] know, in these [clears throat] jobs and [5:27] you want that compass pointing north. [5:30] And one of the complicated things about [5:31] being a CEO is there are a whole lot of [5:33] things that are constantly banging on [5:34] you trying to knock your compass off of [5:36] north. And sometimes it takes enormous, [5:39] you know, resilience and determination [5:41] to keep that compass keep it pointed in [5:43] the direction that you know is right [5:44] while there's a lot of noise or agida. [5:48] And you know, one of the things I [5:49] learned from Hank and I [clears throat] [5:51] just remember I remember sitting in a [5:52] meeting with him, you know, early on [5:55] when I was at Goldman Sachs and somebody [5:57] was suggesting something and there was a [5:58] lot of momentum for it and he just said, [6:00] "Well, we're not going to do that." [6:02] >> Okay. [6:02] >> And it was completely against it was [6:05] completely against kind of the consensus [6:06] of the room and he was he was being a [6:08] CEO because he thought it was wrong. He [6:09] said, "We're not going to do that." [6:10] >> And so I you know I think it's um I [6:13] think you can learn from a lot of [6:14] people. I had a great mentor who wasn't [6:16] a CEO who actually you know if you would [6:19] if you would frame the question around [6:21] who's the most important mentor [6:23] >> you've had in your career was a [6:24] gentleman named Richie Metric okay [6:26] >> who I worked for at Bear Sterns in the [6:28] 1990s been the CFO of Interstate [6:32] Bakeries he'd been a lawyer [6:34] >> he was also just intuitively one of the [6:36] smartest people I've ever met in my [6:38] career and I've met a lot of smart [6:39] people but he had a profound impact on [6:43] teaching me at a time when I was in my [6:45] late 20s and my early 30s and I was kind [6:48] of rising up in an organization [6:49] relatively quickly. He really taught me [6:53] to be self-reflective and really [6:55] understand strengths and weaknesses [6:59] >> and you know be pretty hard on myself [7:00] about things that I had to change [7:02] >> if I wanted to advance. He forced me to [7:04] look at myself at a time where I had, [7:06] you know, less maturity, less of an [7:08] ability to really I was just going [7:10] >> and he for forced me to pause and really [7:12] think about myself and how I could make [7:14] myself better. And he had a profound had [7:16] a profound impact on me. [7:17] >> Okay. Interesting. There's it's a little [7:19] bit fashionable in Silicon Valley these [7:21] days that people are saying you got a [7:24] much better return on your investment by [7:26] investing in your strengths and making [7:28] them stronger versus fixing your [7:30] weaknesses and you should just hire [7:32] around your weaknesses. Any reaction to [7:34] that? I I think to be successful over a [7:40] very very long career where you're going [7:42] to be in leadership positions and [7:43] ultimately rise up to lead a big [7:47] organization. And by the way, it's very [7:49] different from a founder leads an [7:50] organization because they created it. [7:52] >> Yes. [7:52] >> And they anoint themselves founder. It's [7:55] theirs. [7:55] >> Yes. [7:57] you know, rising up to lead a 150-y old [7:59] organization like Goldman Sachs, [8:03] >> you better have a lot of strengths, you [8:05] better be working on your weaknesses, [8:07] okay? [8:07] >> Because if you're not doing all of the [8:09] above, first of all, it's a random walk [8:11] to begin with because there's so many [8:13] talented people. And you know, one of [8:14] the things I've always talked about is [8:15] serendipity and timing. [8:17] >> Um, and I think serendipity and timing [8:20] have a lot to do with who winds up in [8:21] the in the CEO jobs in these in these [8:23] organizations. [8:25] Um, but I think you better be working on [8:28] the, you know, the whole package if you [8:30] want to put yourself into the ring and [8:32] have a chance to, uh, to come out of the [8:34] ring. Got it. [8:34] >> To come to come out of the ring. [8:36] >> Another kind of [8:39] something floating in the air in Silicon [8:41] Valley is founders really hiring for [8:45] slope versus experience. So, the very [8:48] young, very intelligent, high slope [8:51] person versus someone who's sort of been [8:53] there and done that. Um, and you talked [8:56] earlier about about just smart and and I [9:00] it reminds me um I'm a Boston sports fan [9:04] and the in the Boston Celtics have an [9:06] announcer named Tommy Heinson [snorts] [9:08] and Tommy Heinson very announcer. He was [9:11] really good. And the Celtics had like a [9:14] backup backup center who was very low [9:17] skill but was giant. And I remember [9:20] Heinstein saying, you know, he may not [9:22] have a lot of skill, but you can't teach [9:25] seven feet. And I kind of think the same [9:27] with smart. You can't teach smart. So, [9:29] how much is it about smart versus [9:32] experience? I kind of think you guys are [9:33] famous for hiring very bright young [9:36] people and moving them up. We're we're [9:38] as an organization, we're [9:39] extraordinarily lucky that we have so [9:41] many incredibly bright people that are [9:43] interested in working and spending time [9:45] at Goldman Sachs. But, [9:46] >> you know, I'm I'm in the camp of smart [9:49] enough. [9:50] >> Okay. [9:51] Um, you have to be smart enough, [9:55] but the smartest person in the world [9:57] without a whole package of other things [10:00] not going to navigate Goldman Sachs [10:01] well. Not going to be successful in [10:03] Goldman Sachs, you know, over the over [10:05] the, um, over the long run. [10:07] >> You know, the human elements, [10:09] um, the ability to connect, resilience, [10:14] >> determination, [10:16] striving for excellence, you know, [10:18] things that matter, you know, [10:19] everywhere. [10:20] It's interesting when you talk, you [10:22] know, you live in a founder world. [10:24] >> I live in an established company world [10:26] and I deal with founders as clients. [10:28] But, [10:29] >> you know, it's um, you know, this this [10:31] this concept of of slope versus [10:34] experience. I live in a world where [10:36] experience is worth a lot. I live in a [10:38] world, if you sit around the management [10:40] committee table at Goldman Sachs, [10:43] >> the level of experience and the judgment [10:46] that comes from that experience is [10:47] extraordinary. underrated in your mind. [10:50] >> And and hugely underrated. And by the [10:52] way, hugely necessary kind of big [10:53] differentiator for the firm. [10:55] >> Okay. [10:55] >> Um you can't you can't teach experience. [10:59] >> No, [10:59] >> that doesn't mean somebody without [11:01] experience can't do very very well. But [11:04] it's you know it's [11:05] >> I mean someone can't watch this podcast [11:06] and then run Goldman Sachs and not be [11:08] able to do it. [11:09] >> Well, a lot of people there are a lot of [11:11] people that can run Goldman Sachs and [11:12] maybe if they do they'll have less bumps [11:14] and bruises than I do. But um [11:16] >> you know experience experience matters [11:18] in these big organizations and when it [11:20] matters it doesn't matter when things [11:21] are going well. [11:23] >> It matters when the bumps come. [11:25] >> Yeah. [11:25] >> Um and you know you've got to make [11:27] difficult judgments and and making those [11:29] judgments and and they're not they're [11:31] not 9010 judgments. They're 5149 [11:33] judgments. [11:34] >> No easy decisions at the CEO desk. [11:36] >> By the way, if it's an easy decision, it [11:37] doesn't make it to my desk. One of the [11:39] things I've realized is I don't have to [11:40] make a lot of decisions. [11:41] >> What's the best of two shitty options? [11:43] >> Yeah. where that is that is oftentimes [11:45] what CEOs face. [11:46] >> Yeah. [11:47] >> Okay. A lot of people listening are VP [11:50] of such and such in XYZ scaleup company [11:54] and they want to be CEO of a company [11:57] someday. Um you were kind of hired from [12:01] the outside, you rose up to CEO. Advice [12:03] to those folks who are on that kind of [12:05] track who want to be not found a company [12:07] but become a CEO. And I think basic in [12:10] tech a lot of companies are getting [12:11] older and a lot of founders are going to [12:13] step aside in the next few years and a [12:15] new generation will kind of come up and [12:17] take over them. Advice for those folks. [12:20] What was a younger David thinking about [12:22] back then? [12:22] >> Well, I think I think one of the things [12:26] that's interesting when I was you know I [12:29] joined Goldman Sachs at 37. I had I had [12:31] actually I had worked early in my career [12:33] at Drexel Burnham and then Drexel [12:34] Bernham went out of business and I wound [12:36] up at Bear Sterns and I did very well at [12:38] Beer Sterns. I rose up into a relatively [12:40] senior position at Bear Sterns in my [12:42] mid30s. [12:44] And when I joined Goldman Sachs, I [12:46] certainly did not aspire to be the CEO [12:49] of Goldman Sachs. You know, I aspired to [12:52] to practice the trade of investment [12:54] banking, be super successful at it, [12:56] impact the organization. [12:57] >> Yeah. [12:58] >> I I decided that I was a big [13:00] organization person. [13:01] >> Okay. [13:01] >> Um, [13:02] >> what do you mean by that? [13:03] >> I I loved, you know, there's a dynamic [13:06] in a large organization. the resources, [13:08] the access, the platform that I found [13:12] very very appealing and the leadership [13:14] opportunity, you know, in big platforms. [13:16] I found that very very appealing. So I [13:18] was leading, you know, in my 30s at Bear [13:20] Stories, but then at Goldman Sachs, you [13:22] know, I was managing hundreds and [13:23] hundreds of people. Yeah. Um, very [13:25] quickly, thousands of people. [snorts] [13:27] >> Um, and I really I enjoyed that. I [13:30] enjoyed the platform. I enjoyed being a [13:32] part of an institution. It wasn't about [13:33] me. It was about, you know, stewarding [13:36] >> Yeah. [13:36] >> stewarding the institution. I really I [13:38] really enjoyed that. [13:40] >> But I never, my goal wasn't to be the [13:42] CEO of Goldman Sachs. In fact, I I [13:45] >> in some ways I'm the unlikely CEO. Okay. [13:47] >> Um I came from the outside. I was never, [13:50] you know, you can go back and you can [13:51] look at some articles, you know, the [13:53] dark horse candidate this the unlike. I [13:55] mean, a lot of it serendipity, a lot of [13:57] it's luck, but it wasn't it wasn't my [13:58] principal goal. Now, at the same time, I [14:01] just told you that I liked leading [14:03] people. And so, I knew I was developing [14:06] skills that gave me the possibility of [14:10] leading a organization. But what I was [14:13] focused on was developing skills and [14:16] seeing where the road took me, not kind [14:19] of pointing to a seat and saying, "How [14:20] do I get to that seat?" [14:21] >> Yeah. [14:22] >> Um, and so my advice to people that [14:25] really want to run a big enterprise, [14:27] Yeah. is you've got to do a lot of [14:28] different things. So, one of the great [14:31] benefits that I got at Goldman Sachs is [14:33] I did a lot of different things. [14:34] >> They moved you around. [14:35] >> They moved me around and I, you know, I [14:37] was I was running all of credit trading [14:39] when I joined the firm. Yeah. [14:40] >> And then Hank Paulson came and said to [14:42] me, "You're going to go run equity [14:43] capital markets." And I said, "Well, I [14:44] really like this job." And he said, "No, [14:46] you're going to go do this." [14:47] >> Yeah. [14:48] >> Um, and so it was it was a completely [14:50] different thing. [14:51] >> Do you think startups should do that? [14:52] They've got a high potential person move [14:53] even though they're great in moving the [14:56] needle in what they are doing. Should [14:58] they have rotation type? [14:59] >> It's harder. It's harder. It's harder in [15:00] a startup. [15:01] >> Yeah. [15:01] >> Okay. It's harder in a startup because [15:02] you you have you have a limited number [15:04] of people do again big enterprises and [15:07] platforms. This is one of the things [15:09] that's really attractive about working [15:10] at a big enterprise like Goldman Sachs. [15:12] You can move around and do a lot of [15:14] things. Yeah. [15:15] >> And a startup that's trying to scale in [15:16] a business, [15:17] >> you know, you don't you don't have that [15:19] same luxury. you you can't you can't the [15:22] organization can't be as patient you [15:24] know to some degree so they they really [15:26] are they really are different things but [15:28] if you want to lead if you want to [15:30] really lead people and lead big parts of [15:31] organizations or ultimately lead an [15:33] organization [15:34] >> I think you've got to try to do a [15:36] variety of different things and really [15:37] gain experience [15:38] >> do you think failure is important along [15:40] that road [15:40] >> I I think failure is important for [15:42] everyone because you know there's [15:44] there's no one [15:46] >> do you feel like man I fell on my face [15:47] on the way [15:48] >> I I mean I fell on my [15:50] you know, so many times. I mean, so many [15:51] times and I I can tell you, you know, [15:54] crazy stories about being, you know, [15:55] really learning what it is, you know, to [15:57] be responsible things. Goldman Sachs is [16:00] a very competitive place. We compete to [16:02] a very high standard. I I mean, here's a [16:04] small, you know, anecdotal story. It was [16:07] uh I I was over I had flown over to [16:11] Ireland to play golf for three days with [16:14] a group of guys I went to college with [16:17] because it was the year when we all [16:18] turned 40. [16:20] >> And I had just started running the [16:23] equity capital markets business at [16:24] Goldman Sachs. And when I when you know [16:28] we got over there um and that night [16:32] we're having dinner and this is you know [16:34] cell phones existed but it wasn't the [16:36] same constant text and everybody in [16:39] touch but I checked my message after [16:41] dinner so it would have been uh you know [16:44] 10:30 at night so it's going to be 5:30 [16:46] in New York. [16:48] We had missed a $2 billion equity deal [16:51] for uh for Accenture and people were [16:55] going apoplelectic as how it could [16:57] happen because we had led their IPO, you [16:59] know, a year earlier and we missed this [17:01] $2 billion equity deal. [17:03] >> And you know what, my area, I was [17:04] responsible. I was figuring out how to [17:06] get myself back to New York. I was back [17:07] in the office the next morning dealing [17:10] with it. And it's, you know, that's you [17:12] learn from those things. Yeah. Okay. [17:13] Because the world was like, "Okay, [17:15] you're in charge. How could this happen [17:16] on your watch? Now I tell the story now [17:19] it's 25 years later it's one deal but [17:22] that ethos of competing to that level of [17:25] excellence that level of accountability [17:27] those are things that have really made [17:29] Goldman Sachs what it is over a long [17:31] period of time and if you want to lead [17:32] in that organization [17:34] >> you know you have to when when things [17:36] don't go right you have to run to them [17:37] and you have to jump on them and so I [17:39] mean that's happened so many different [17:40] times in my career different ways [17:42] different things [17:43] >> bad judgments on people chose the wrong [17:46] people had to correct [17:48] Mhm. [17:48] >> By the way, I mean, one of the most [17:50] difficult decisions I made was for us to [17:52] step away from some of the consumer [17:54] business that we had started. [17:55] >> Yeah, let's talk about that. [17:56] >> Yeah. Um, [17:58] >> that I don't think that was your bet. [18:00] >> Well, I didn't I didn't start it. I, you [18:01] know, I I didn't start it. The the the [18:03] theision [18:05] roll back the history a little bit. So, [18:06] it's [18:07] >> Sure. [18:07] >> The thing that I find interesting about [18:09] it after running HubSpot is like you've [18:10] got your core businesses. They're going [18:12] great. It's like and they're big markets [18:15] and you're you're deep in the markets. [18:17] Should we just triple down on that or [18:19] should we take a risk and do something [18:20] new is one question in my head I always [18:24] wrestle that. The second question is [18:25] okay we did that bet. It's going okay [18:31] if we just put enough resource on it [18:33] would work. And so the decision to go [18:35] into it I think is interesting. And the [18:37] decision, I'm sure you doubled down a [18:39] couple times about the decision to step [18:40] away. That's fascinating to me. [18:43] >> Well, there there are a couple things. I [18:45] mean, it's it's it's a complex story as [18:47] these things always are. And and [18:50] >> you know, there's a there's a press [18:52] narrative around it that [18:53] >> what's the real narrative? [18:54] >> Well, the reason that we the reason that [18:56] we there are a number of reasons why we [18:58] decided to move into the business, but a [19:00] big reason we decided to look at the [19:03] business was to start to build a deposit [19:05] platform. [19:05] >> Yeah. because the firm was the largest [19:07] wholesale funer in the world and there [19:09] are a lot of things that you want to be [19:10] the largest in the world. Wholesale [19:12] funer as a financial institution is not [19:14] one of them. [19:14] >> Okay. [19:15] >> Okay. [laughter] [19:16] >> So, you know, deposits represent, you [19:19] know, a much more stable base and [19:20] because we hadn't grown up as a bank. We [19:22] did not have a deposit platform and [19:24] digitization was allowing the concept of [19:26] digital deposits. And so the original [19:28] idea was we'll build a digital deposit [19:30] platform and we'll we'll make some [19:33] consumer loans and we'll see what we can [19:36] create out of it. [19:36] >> Was this bubbling under the surface for [19:38] a year 10 years? [19:40] >> No, there was there was there was a very [19:41] famous meeting out in the east end of [19:44] Long Island at Gary Cohen's house who [19:45] was the president with a group of the [19:47] senior leaders brainstorm. Yeah. [19:49] Brainstorming around growth ideas that [19:52] would move the firm forward. This was [19:54] this was surfaced by by a couple of [19:56] other people. not me, a couple other [19:57] people there. I was running investment [19:58] banking at the time and Lloyd decided [20:01] that that he wanted to do it and then [20:03] shortly after we started that [snorts] [20:07] um Apple approached us as to whether or [20:10] not we wanted to look at partnering with [20:12] them on a credit card and I think you [20:14] know there the thought process was one [20:17] of the largest most important companies [20:18] in the world you know if you're going to [20:20] do this very interesting partner very [20:22] interesting tech partner and so a [20:25] decision was made that we'd go down that [20:26] road we'd try to do it And one of the [20:28] reasons we were attracted to Apple is [20:29] Apple wanted to do it differently. [20:31] >> Hold on, let me stop you there. You're [20:33] you're in Long Island. You're having [20:35] that discussion. A couple guys present [20:37] it. [20:38] >> And was there a lot of debate around it? [20:41] How does Goldman make a decision like [20:42] that? Is it is it consensus? Were there [20:45] a bunch of people in the room said, [20:46] "Hey, this is crazy." There was a lot of [20:47] debate and there were a lot of people [20:49] offering opinions, but ultimately [20:51] >> the decision to launch the the deposit [20:53] platform and um and start the small [20:56] lending business that we called Marcus [20:58] ultimately was Lloyd's call. [20:59] >> Okay. [20:59] >> Yeah. And that's [21:00] >> and was it contrarian to what the room [21:02] generally wanted? [21:03] >> No, it wasn't it wasn't contrary [21:04] although there were people like why [21:06] would we do this? But I I think the [21:08] deposit thing was a really important [21:09] strategic decision. I think that was [21:11] right. And then how did you decide you [21:14] didn't have any experience in that who [21:16] to give that opportunity to as opposed [21:18] to acquiring in the space? Here's here's [21:20] where I think, you know, and this is all [21:23] hindsight, you know, and hindsight's [21:24] very easy, obviously, because with [21:26] hindsight, you know, you're going to be [21:27] mostly right. [21:28] >> Mostly [21:28] >> I think [laughter] I think one of the um [21:31] I think one of the big mistakes we made, [21:34] this is a little bit culture, and I've [21:35] I've tried to evolve this a little bit. [21:37] The firm always [21:40] operated as we did new things and we [21:43] grew the firm that we've got lots of [21:44] smart people and we can figure it out. [21:46] It was very insular. There was never a [21:49] view that you know let's go get real [21:52] expertise from the outside. [21:54] >> Now that evolved a little bit by the way [21:57] that's one of the reasons why I wound up [21:58] at the firm [21:59] >> um because I had an expertise that there [22:01] wasn't there wasn't it wasn't expertise [22:04] that was heavily embedded in the firm. [22:06] Um but um [22:09] but I think with hindsight we would have [22:10] been better if we really wanted [22:12] strategically to be in that business to [22:13] buy a more established platform instead [22:15] of starting from scratch. Now what's [22:17] also lost in the story and the narrative [22:20] is we built some very very good things. [22:22] First of all the deposit platform is [22:23] very big and very successful and the [22:26] firm is enormous benefits from the fact [22:28] that we have this digital deposit [22:30] platform. Enormous benefits and that's [22:33] worth a lot a lot of money. Yeah. [22:35] >> Um and it's very important for the [22:36] firm's funding and the way the firm is [22:38] competitively positioned. [22:40] credit card platform with Apple is an [22:42] extraordinary product and service. And [22:45] you know, while it's it's out in the [22:46] world that we're not going to be a [22:48] long-term Yeah. [22:49] >> you know, holder of that, it's something [22:51] that we built with Apple. Yeah. [22:53] >> That is really terrific. It's the And [22:55] it's it's a great product. It's a great [22:57] service and it's really working now. So, [23:00] what prompted the decision? The decision [23:03] was prompted by the fact that the [23:05] regulatory environment had significantly [23:08] changed. We and other financial [23:11] institutions were dealing with [23:13] regulatory changes and it became very [23:15] hard to organically scale that to a [23:18] place I see [23:19] >> that you could really make it work. [23:21] >> The firm was feeling some pressure [23:23] because it was a tough time after the [23:25] Russian invasion of Ukraine and asset [23:27] prices in 2022. We had a lot of [23:30] regulatory pressure and [23:33] you know a group of us in the senior [23:35] leadership said this is not working. We [23:37] can make it work, but it's going to be [23:38] very, very hard. But it's small and it's [23:42] distracting us from the things that can [23:43] really create significant market cap and [23:46] value. And so we made the tough decision [23:49] to park it. It was a tough call. But [23:51] there's also a very a lot of attention [23:54] on it, unfortunately, for such a small [23:55] thing. [23:56] >> I mean, if you if you really go back and [23:57] think about it, you know, the firm was [23:59] doing well. [24:00] >> Yeah. And this was less than 5% of the [24:03] firm's revenues. [24:05] >> And it was getting attention as though [24:06] it was 40% of the firm's revenues and [24:08] 40% of the firm's capital. [24:10] >> But that affected the decision because [24:12] it was distracting from the progress we [24:15] were making in other things. [24:17] >> You know, in the long run, it may or may [24:20] not have been in the broad breath of [24:22] what Goldman Sachs will become over the [24:24] next 50 years the right decision, but it [24:27] was definitely the right decision for [24:28] that time. and it helped clarify the [24:31] focus of the firm and get the attention [24:33] back on to all the good things the firm [24:34] was doing. And I think we've benefited [24:36] enormously the last few years, you know, [24:38] from that. [24:38] >> You just talk about that decision like [24:40] CEOs face that type of decision all the [24:43] time of like should we double down or [24:45] should we just pull the band-aid off and [24:47] pull out? Um was that bubbling for a [24:52] couple months, a couple years? Was there [24:55] another group saying, "Hey, we just need [24:57] to double down and get the right people. [24:58] is going to work. Can you just kind of [24:59] take us in the room and take us inside [25:01] your It was a very tough call you made. [25:03] >> You know, one of the things about [25:04] Goldman Sachs, Goldman Sachs has been a [25:05] partnership for 140 years. And I think [25:08] one of the things that you know that as [25:11] a leadership team we're most proud of [25:14] over the last over the last seven years [25:17] um is that we've really kind of [25:20] completed the journey to really getting [25:22] the leadership the broad leadership the [25:25] partnership because we still have this [25:26] concept of partnership [25:27] >> really focused [25:29] >> on delivering for shareholders and we're [25:31] fully making the transition from kind of [25:34] being a public company but still [25:36] operating more like a distributed [25:37] partnership ship versus now really being [25:39] a public company and really working for [25:41] the whole of the company [25:42] >> and um you know that that that was a [25:45] tough thing to manage. So when whenever [25:48] you know whenever there are headwinds at [25:49] Goldman Sachs [25:51] people get very critical of anything [25:53] that's not working because they see it [25:54] as affecting them. [25:56] >> Yeah. [25:56] >> You know very directly. I think we're in [25:59] a better place in terms of how you know [26:02] we operate around that all but there was [26:04] a lot of pressure from people in the [26:05] organization that thought that it was [26:07] going to cost you know them money in the [26:10] short term [26:11] >> but that that really wasn't weighing [26:14] what was what was weighing was the fact [26:17] that I still think there was a belief I [26:20] knew I had a belief that with a much [26:23] longer term lens we were doing something [26:25] that could be very interesting and [26:27] really give the firm another leg of [26:29] growth. [26:30] >> Yeah. [26:31] >> But I knew that it was going to be very [26:34] rough to get there given both the [26:36] regulatory environment and the current [26:38] market environment and just where kind [26:39] of the [26:40] >> the culture of the firm felt. And so, [26:43] you know, went and talked to the board [26:46] and the board's initial response was no, [26:48] no, no, no, no. Okay. [26:49] >> Yeah. No, no, no, no, no. [26:51] >> And, you know, we we talked about it and [26:53] we worked through it over [26:54] >> one meeting or is this over [26:56] >> over a few months? I see. [26:57] >> Over a few months. I mean, I, you know, [26:59] I was over multiple board meetings, but [27:00] it was over, it was over a few months, [27:02] >> but um, you know, I look back at [27:04] decisions I've had to make. That was [27:09] in some ways that was the hardest [27:11] decision. In other ways, as as a team we [27:14] did the work and we talked about it, it [27:16] became an easier decision because it [27:18] became clear this was going to be the [27:19] right thing for the firm at this time. [27:22] >> Okay. A lot of start I work with a lot [27:24] of these hot AI startups and they all [27:27] want to partner with whoever with open [27:30] AI with Apple with SAP with you name it. [27:33] My company partnered with Google and [27:35] Salesforce you partner with Apple. Um [27:39] advice on dancing with giants. [27:44] >> Well, you know Apple obviously is a [27:47] bigger company than Goldman Sachs. [27:48] Goldman Sachs is no peanut startup. Um, [27:51] and so I would say [27:54] >> but big companies I would say partners [27:56] would say there was more I that's that's [27:58] exactly where I was go. I would say it [27:59] was more of a peer relationship [28:02] >> but partnerships between companies are [28:04] tough. [28:05] >> And you know what I would say to you [28:09] know accelerating or scaling up young [28:11] companies that want to partner with [28:14] these you know these big platforms [28:16] you know most partnerships don't work. [28:19] >> Yeah. And [28:22] there better be really compelling, you [28:24] know, glue to that partnership or, you [28:27] know, chances of it working or low. I [28:30] mean, the you and I know, I mean, you [28:32] partnerships are hard. Yeah, [28:33] >> partnerships are very hard. [28:34] Organizations have different cultures, [28:36] different expectations, and partnerships [28:38] are very, very hard. Now, that doesn't [28:39] mean there aren't some great [28:40] partnerships. [28:42] Um, but to have them really work, you've [28:44] got to have really good alignment of [28:47] incentives, of purpose, of incentives, [28:50] >> and a governance structure that can [28:51] assure that the, for lack of a better [28:54] term, the friction in each organization [28:56] doesn't doesn't make it harder for those [28:59] for that partnership to move forward. [29:01] >> I'm just going to go back a minute ago. [29:02] You talked about solving for [29:03] shareholders [29:05] and I I talked to founders and some [29:08] founders like there's three constituents [29:10] that you can solve for. You really [29:11] double down on the shareholders or [29:13] really double down the employees or [29:14] really double down on your customers. [29:17] Where does where's sort of Goldman's [29:20] energy? Um where's your energy on that? [29:23] I'm not gonna let you off the hook and [29:24] say all three. Well, I I you don't have [29:27] to you don't have to let me off the [29:28] hook, but I'll I'll talk about a couple [29:31] of things of the way I think about it. [29:33] >> Okay? [29:33] >> So, first of all, for any business, [29:35] >> okay, if you don't have a product or [29:38] service that you're selling to somebody [29:40] that is value ad, you don't have a [29:42] business. [29:43] >> Okay? So, let's just start with whether [29:45] it's clients or it's customers or it's [29:47] fine, [29:48] >> you know. So, what is true north for [29:50] Goldman Sachs? True North for Goldman [29:51] Sachs is client. [29:53] You know, we know [29:54] >> it sounds like investors have a loud [29:56] voice. [29:57] >> Well, investors do have a loud voice. [29:59] We'll come to that in a second. But just [30:00] if I if I finish this if I finish this [30:02] thought, [30:03] >> you know, client centricity is true [30:06] north. It's one of the firm's four core [30:08] values. [30:08] >> Okay. [30:10] >> Client service, partnership, integrity, [30:13] excellence, four core values. But client [30:15] service, [30:17] client centricity is kind of true north. [30:20] And the general ethos of the firm is if [30:22] you build trust with clients, if you [30:24] take a long-term view, if you do the [30:26] right thing, [30:27] >> good things will happen. [30:29] >> It's a long game, good things will [30:30] happen. And I I've watched that in my [30:32] career and I believe it deeply. [30:35] >> Really deeply. Now, if good things [30:38] happen with clients and our business, [30:40] good things happen for shareholders. And [30:44] you can't be confused. If you are not [30:46] delivering for shareholders, you're not [30:48] going to be able to do good things for [30:49] clients because what do we deliver? What [30:52] do we deliver to clients? We devote [30:53] people, capital, and technology. And we [30:57] marry those things together. And you [31:00] know, if you're not performing for [31:01] shareholders, your ability to have the [31:03] resources and the capability to be [31:04] really good for your clients gets [31:06] limited. [31:07] >> Now, here's the tricky thing. In our [31:08] business, we have to have extraordinary [31:11] people in our business to be able to do [31:12] any of this for shareholders or for [31:14] clients. So, I don't want to go back to [31:16] you're not going to let me do it, but I [31:18] need to I need I need to I need to [31:20] deliver for all three. Okay. And it's [31:22] almost like it's almost like as a [31:23] leadership team, it's kind of like we're [31:25] conducting an orchestra, and we've got [31:27] to, you know, conduct the orchestra [31:28] between, you know, clients, people, [31:31] shareholders, and we've got to make it [31:33] all sound beautiful. And and at the [31:35] moment, we're going through a period [31:36] where it really does sound beautiful, [31:38] and I kind of like that. But I've also [31:40] been through other periods where it kind [31:42] of sounded like something was out of [31:43] tune. And then you've got to you got to [31:45] figure out how to get back into balance. [31:46] >> Okay, speaking of orchestras, like I had [31:48] an old boss that used to say, "We're not [31:50] an orchestra, we're a jazz band." Um, [31:52] and I work with all these founders that [31:54] they're in 40 person companies going to [31:56] 400, going to 4,000, going to 40,000. [32:00] And they're it slows everything slows [32:03] down as they get bigger. And man, they [32:06] complain about it. Uh, and they always [32:09] ask me like, "Brian, how do I how do I [32:11] keep the speed and the intensity and the [32:13] missionary zeal as we go from 40 to 400 [32:16] to 4,000?" You seem to be moving pretty [32:20] briskly for a 40,000 person or advice [32:23] for these founders. [32:25] >> Well, one of the things that's just [32:26] interesting is I'm not scaling an [32:29] organization from 4,000 to 40,000 to [32:33] 400,000. you know, I inherited [32:36] I I I stepped into my role with an [32:39] organization that had about 36 or 38,000 [32:41] people. And today, you know, I'm I'm in [32:44] the eighth year of my tenure, just [32:47] started the eth year of my tenure, [32:49] >> and we have, you know, 48 or 49,000. [32:52] >> So, we've had nice growth. [32:54] >> But, you know, the bigger thing is that [32:55] we've taken the revenues from 34 billion [32:58] kind of on average where they were in [32:59] the last decade to kind of 55 to 60 [33:01] billion. And I think the market cap's [33:03] four or 5x. [33:04] >> Yeah, we've taken the market cap from 60 [33:06] 70 billion to 250 billion. So, we've [33:09] done we've done a really [33:10] >> we've done a really nice job at growing [33:12] the firm. [33:13] >> You know, the firm our firm scales [33:17] there. There are businesses in our firm [33:18] that scale with people, but there are a [33:21] lot of businesses that scale with [33:22] capital. And so, you know, one of the [33:25] things I think we got really right that [33:27] really helped our market shares, [33:28] particularly in our core business, is we [33:30] put more financial resources. We scaled [33:32] more capital into the business and [33:33] decided we were going to lean into [33:35] providing more resources which [33:37] generated, you know, more more return. I [33:41] on this point though of of nimleness, [33:43] you know, this all gets to culture and [33:44] and and you know, one of the things that [33:46] I think Goldman Sachs has been around [33:48] for 155 years and there's been a lot [33:50] said about Goldman Sachs's culture and [33:52] Goldman Sachs's culture is unique, but I [33:54] would also say it's constantly changing. [33:57] >> And the most [33:57] >> is that an intentional change or is it [33:59] bottomup changing? [34:00] >> It's it's both. I mean, it's both. But [34:02] but here's the thing. you better be [34:05] working at defining what you want it to [34:06] be and constantly reshaping it and [34:09] amplifying what you think really [34:11] matters. And you know, I'll give you an [34:12] example [34:13] >> of something we did that I think just [34:15] shows you how we think about this and [34:17] why it's it's so so important. [34:20] Co was awful for everybody, [34:23] was awful for businesses, particularly [34:26] awful for our business. Think about our [34:28] business. We have 49,000 people. 50% of [34:31] them are in their 20s. It is an [34:32] apprenticeship culture. They're coming [34:35] to the firm to spend time with people [34:38] and all of a sudden the whole ecosystem [34:40] is like often a different it's it's like [34:44] you know we were we were on Earth now [34:46] we're on Mars. Right. Okay. [34:47] >> Right. [34:48] >> And so you know in that in that context [34:51] it frayed at our culture and there was a [34:53] lot going on during that period of time [34:55] was fraying at everybody's culture. But [34:57] as soon as we got to a point which was [34:59] like okay we're going to go move forward [35:01] as a leadership team we said we have to [35:05] kind of reinvest and reinvigorate our [35:07] culture and here's what we decided to [35:09] do. We said we're going to make a big [35:10] investment in this. So there are 450 [35:12] Goldman Sachs partners. We said we are [35:15] going to take the time to send during [35:18] the course of a year. It ultimately took [35:19] us 15 months. We're going to send all [35:22] the partners off in groups of 25 offsite [35:26] for two days to talk about the culture, [35:29] what's important in the culture, and [35:31] what their responsibility is to steward [35:34] that culture. Okay. And reinvigorate it. [35:36] And I committed to have a three-hour, [35:39] four-h hour dinner with every single one [35:41] of those cohorts over 15 months. [35:42] >> Okay. How much weight did you gain [35:44] during that time? [35:44] >> I, you know, I tried to eat very little. [35:46] And uh but but the point is, think about [35:50] it. the most senior people of the firm. [35:51] >> Yeah. [35:53] >> All going away in cohorts of 25 to spend [35:55] two days together. So offline for two [35:57] days. The CEO committing to do 20 [36:00] dinners. [36:01] >> Okay. [36:02] >> It was a big commitment. You know what? [36:04] We came out of that and the firm was [36:06] aligned on what mattered culturally. [36:08] Okay. [36:09] >> And there were some changes and there [36:10] were some, you know, nuance things, you [36:12] know, still foundational values, but it [36:15] was a kick in the pants to everybody. [36:16] Hey, we own this. We have to steward it. [36:18] We have to feel figure out in the new [36:20] world that we're in how do we make this [36:22] really exceptional so that all the [36:24] things that make Goldman Sachs [36:25] exceptional continue to be. And so one [36:28] of the things that's just interesting [36:29] when I when I talk to founders and [36:31] startups they talk about their cultures. [36:33] >> Okay. And the first thing going on in my [36:34] mind is that's great but the company's [36:37] been around for seven years. Okay. [36:40] >> How do how do you find a culture in a [36:42] company that's been around for seven [36:43] years? How are you putting your mark on [36:44] what it's going to be? What's it going [36:46] to be at 15 years versus seven? It's a [36:48] very different thing [36:50] >> when you don't have you know that [36:51] foundation but culture in all [36:53] organizations requires commitment [36:56] investment focus [36:59] you know that that matters in all big [37:02] small growing scaling established [37:05] >> you know one or two things that came out [37:06] of all those dinners in that big confab [37:09] that were like we're this is what our [37:12] culture is and this is where our culture [37:13] isn't where there a couple of things [37:15] that you're like this really changed Um [37:18] I you know I think I think you know a [37:20] recind of underwriting of what it meant [37:23] to hold the organization to a standard [37:25] of excellence. I see [37:26] >> that that [37:26] >> you felt that was slipping. [37:28] >> You know, it it slipped. If you think [37:29] about what was going on in 2020, 21,22. [37:32] I mean, here's [37:35] >> saying, you know what, I can do anything [37:36] from home that I can do from the office. [37:39] Okay, it's not the same level of [37:41] excellence as where do I show up today? [37:44] How do I bring people along? How do I be [37:46] committed? [37:47] >> It's just different [37:49] >> at least in our business. I'm not going [37:50] to say in our business. So, you know, [37:53] really re-underwriting that level of [37:54] excellence and also getting people to [37:56] really rethink, you know, there is no [37:58] perfection. [38:00] >> Okay. But, you know, excellence is [38:03] something that you can choose. [38:04] >> Okay. [38:05] >> And really re-underwriting that in the [38:06] culture I think was something that came [38:08] out of this. The other thing that came [38:09] out of it as an exercise which wasn't [38:12] really about defining the culture but I [38:14] think helps a lot is it really allowed [38:18] us as a leadership team and allowed me [38:20] as the CEO to reunderwite the strategy [38:24] and the way we wanted to communicate [38:25] around the strategy and really get the [38:27] whole leadership of the organization 450 [38:29] strong 100% on board with where we were [38:32] going. And when you get a big [38:33] organization, you get the top 450 people [38:36] all aligned [38:38] on strategically where you're going, [38:39] boy, you get a lot of output. [38:41] >> I think it's absolutely fascinating how [38:44] long you folks have been around and and [38:46] thrived. It's very rare. Uh my company's [38:50] 19 years old, super proud of it. I'd [38:53] like to be around in 150 not me, but I'd [38:56] like the company to be around in 155 [38:58] years. What advice would you give me? [39:01] What advice would you give founders like [39:03] me? [39:03] >> I I think it's the wrong I think it's [39:05] the wrong lens. Okay. [39:06] >> Okay. I I And look, it's interesting if [39:10] you go back to companies that were [39:11] founded, you know, in the middle of the [39:12] 19th century, there aren't that many [39:14] left. No. [39:15] >> Okay. And [39:16] >> by the way, companies founded now, you [39:18] know, 100 years from now, there won't be [39:19] that many left. [39:21] >> I think that it's a random walk to [39:24] create a hundred-y old company. [39:26] >> And in the distribution, the world [39:28] changes, the competitive landscape [39:30] changes. Um, the goal should be to build [39:33] the best business you can, the best [39:34] company you can. And as long as you're [39:37] doing that, you're really adding value [39:39] to your clients, your customers, you [39:41] know, you're adding value, opportunities [39:43] will emerge that will allow you to go [39:45] further, further, and further [39:47] >> and you never know where it will wind [39:48] up. But the world changes. I mean, go [39:51] look, go take [39:52] >> You guys change though. The world [39:54] change, you change. Is there something [39:56] about the culture [39:57] >> like you pivot? [39:59] >> We pivot. You pivoted huge scale. [40:01] >> We've we've pivoted at huge scale. Um [40:04] >> you know the history of Goldman Sachs is [40:06] littered with moments where the firm [40:07] came this close to going out of [40:09] business. [40:10] >> You can go back to 19 I mean I you can [40:12] go back to 1929 of course [40:14] >> there was there was but not just the [40:16] crash during the crash there was [40:17] actually something called the Goldman [40:18] Sachs Trading Corporation which was a [40:20] public entity that we know that [40:22] basically plummeted and almost took the [40:25] firm you know almost took the firm down. [40:27] Um, pen, we were the commercial paper [40:29] underwriter for Penn Central when Pen [40:31] Central went bankrupt in the 1970s and [40:34] that almost took the firm down. But just [40:36] back to the question, you have pivoted [40:38] at scale and I see startups pivoting but [40:40] once they get to scale, they kind of [40:42] stay heavy on the rails. They don't [40:44] pivot when stuff comes. Tell me like for [40:46] example, you pivoted pretty hard in AI. [40:49] You've leaned in very hard on it. Um, [40:52] you for a large company, you were pretty [40:54] early on that train. I think we're good [40:56] at figuring out how technology can make [40:58] us better at what we do. But here's the [40:59] here's here's the thing I think you have [41:00] to be focused on. What do we do? We are, [41:05] in my humble opinion, the best [41:08] investment bank in the world. [41:10] >> Yes, [41:11] >> we [41:14] run one of the two best trading [41:16] businesses in the world. And the [41:17] combination of kind of investment [41:19] banking and trading, that's what Goldman [41:21] Sachs is. We are the best in the world [41:23] at it in my humble opinion. Yeah. [41:25] >> Um certainly nobody would dispute that [41:27] we're not one of the best in the world [41:28] at that. And as long as we're really [41:31] good at that and we continue to win at [41:34] that and that's something that the world [41:35] needs, you know, you can perpetuate if [41:38] you make the right decisions and the [41:39] right pivots. We also have become fifth, [41:42] sixth, seventh, depending on how you [41:44] look at it, largest active asset manager [41:46] in the world. We supervised 3.3.4 [41:49] trillion dollars and that business is [41:51] growing. We we said publicly we're going [41:52] to grow at high single high single [41:55] digits. We're growing it better than [41:56] that. We've got an extraordinary wealth [41:58] franchise and that business, you know, [42:00] we have a right to win [42:01] >> and we're a leader. And so, you know, [42:03] ultimately to really sustain, you've got [42:06] to really deliver value and you've got [42:08] to have leading franchises. You have to [42:10] have scale and you have a right to win. [42:13] And the reason that that most business [42:16] >> 20 years ago are gone. [42:19] You're not. Yes, you have a right to [42:22] win, but there was a bunch of pivots and [42:23] a bunch of bets and through three [42:26] different CEOs. What is it? [42:29] >> You know, it's the culture's [42:31] contributed, the quality of the people's [42:32] contributed, the brand built over a long [42:35] period of time. [42:35] >> Is there a risking mentality inside the [42:37] firm? [42:38] >> We have a great we have a great risk [42:39] takingaking. We have a great [42:40] riskmanagement culture inside the firm. [42:42] The reason that most that lots of [42:43] financial institutions go away is not [42:46] because they have a risk-taking culture [42:47] or maybe it's because they don't have a [42:49] risk management culture. So they make [42:51] mistakes and you know financial firms [42:53] are levered and they they get they get [42:55] into uh they get into trouble. [42:56] >> Yeah. [42:57] >> You know decisions decisions around over [42:59] decades things we would do wouldn't do. [43:02] When the world goes left you know we [43:04] think left is we go slower. [43:06] >> Yeah. [43:07] >> Um you don't have to be first [43:10] >> in financial services. I think even [43:12] second mover advantage is underrated. [43:14] >> Yeah. [43:15] >> Um succession planning. [43:18] >> I'm sure there were some folks that [43:19] didn't work out, but it seems like [43:21] Goldman's very good at that. And I think [43:22] a lot of tech companies are going to [43:24] have to go through it. What did they [43:26] were what are they doing right? Like you [43:27] you're the last three seem like you seem [43:29] like I'm a winner of a succession [43:31] planning output. Um what are they doing? [43:35] I think one of the things that's [43:37] interesting about Goldman Sachs is there [43:40] are ext the senior leadership at Goldman [43:42] Sachs is an extraordinary group of [43:43] people. I sit around, you know, the [43:44] small table, whether it's the management [43:46] committee, which is a slightly bigger [43:48] table [43:48] >> or even with, you know, the the closest [43:50] group of of senior leaders at the firm [43:52] and I'm in awe at how smart and talented [43:54] and capable and committed and um [43:57] extraordinary, you know, that group of [43:59] people is. So, let's just start by the [44:00] fact there were lots of people that [44:01] could have run Goldman Sachs. goes back [44:03] to the serendipity point. [44:04] >> You know, [44:06] >> Lloyd Blankfine got sick in 2015 [44:09] >> and he decided that he was going to deal [44:11] with his treatment and continue to run [44:13] the firm and then come back. There are [44:15] people who would have gotten sick and [44:16] said, "You know what? I'm sick. I'm [44:18] going to step away." Okay. Had he [44:21] stepped away, I wouldn't be CEO. At that [44:23] point, the firm probably would make Gary [44:25] Con the CEO. So, because Gary was the, [44:27] you know, the president of the firm at [44:28] that point in time. So, you know, [44:29] serendipity and luck. If the succession [44:31] had happened in 2013 or 2014 or 2015, it [44:34] wouldn't have been me. But it happened, [44:36] it happened in 2018. [44:37] >> Did the board interview you and several [44:39] other people and was there a rigorous [44:41] process? [44:41] >> The board the board knows the senior [44:43] leadership really well. The board knows [44:46] the senior leadership really well and [44:47] ours is a firm where there are lots of [44:49] people that can run the firm. [44:51] >> Um, ultimately there's got to be a [44:52] decision. [44:53] >> Um, and look, I think succession is [44:55] very, [44:56] >> you know, very, very important. And one [44:57] of the things I'm proud of is that we [45:00] have a very stable senior leadership [45:02] team at the firm right now. We've been [45:03] working together and executing, you [45:06] know, on this plan over the last seven [45:07] years. And I think it's one of the [45:08] reasons why we're making really good [45:09] progress. [45:10] >> Okay. Back to a point you made. You're [45:12] you're apprenticeship culture. You hire [45:14] tons of young folks who are smart. My [45:17] son's in business school now and [45:19] everyone in his class wants to work for [45:21] you. [45:23] What's going to happen 10 years from now [45:26] with AI and that apprenticeship culture [45:29] and bringing all these folks in? Do you [45:31] think it changes? Like what's your [45:33] where's your head at on that? [45:34] >> I I think there's always change at the [45:37] margin, but I think the substance of who [45:40] we are and what we are and what we do [45:42] and the fact that we need lots of very [45:44] bright people interacting together. [45:46] Yeah. [45:46] >> Building trust. [45:48] >> Um I don't think that changes. And [45:50] here's here's the analogy I give you. [45:51] And I've been talking about this for a [45:53] number of years. And so um you know [45:54] there's some people that will listen to [45:56] this will say I've heard David you know [45:57] say this before. When I started in 1984 [46:00] >> one of my first assignments was to go do [46:03] a common stock comparison. [46:05] >> Okay. [46:05] >> Comparing five regional banks and how [46:08] their stock had traded for five years. [46:10] That was a big assignment. How'd you go [46:12] do that? You went to the library. What [46:14] was the only data source that existed in [46:17] the world that had the closing stock [46:19] price for every stock that traded for [46:21] every single day? Back issues of the [46:23] Wall Street Journal. So you went to the [46:25] library, you went to the microfich and [46:26] you took out on microfich back issues of [46:28] the Wall Street Journal. You did all the [46:30] work to go through all the old issues of [46:32] the journal and find the specific stock [46:34] prices. You took out green line graph [46:37] paper and you plotted the graph. You [46:40] then took it to a Xerox machine and [46:42] copied it. And then you went to your [46:44] client and you showed them this and they [46:46] said, "Wow, thank you for helping us [46:48] understand this." It took, I mean, I [46:50] don't know, it took four to six hours to [46:51] do the work to do it. Technology has [46:54] constantly made super productive people [46:58] more productive, more capable. I see [47:01] this the same way. Now, of course, [47:03] technology also replaces certain jobs [47:07] 100%. We don't have a lot of toll [47:08] collectors. No, [47:09] >> you know, anymore. [47:11] >> But that doesn't mean when you get into [47:14] the things that we do, which is a lot [47:16] about trust, [47:18] personal relationships, [47:21] um, advice, you know, at the center of a [47:23] lot of what we we do. These become tools [47:26] that enhance, speed up, and allow us to [47:28] do it even in a broader context. We're [47:30] still going to need a lot of people to [47:31] do it. Okay? and they're just they will [47:33] be trained with different skills with [47:35] different skills in different you know [47:37] in in different ways and of course [47:39] >> you know I I you know let's let's take [47:41] one that I just I just think is is [47:43] obvious [47:44] >> okay all companies have massive [47:47] financial reporting and accounting [47:49] functions [47:50] >> the operational [47:53] processes for that are going to be [47:54] different and they're going to have a [47:56] different number of people associated [47:57] with them but that doesn't mean that [48:00] you're not going to have people in other [48:02] ways. I mean, you know, for me, I'm [48:04] excited about what this technology does [48:06] because we're looking at how we can [48:08] reimagine processes that actually free [48:10] up the capacity for us to invest in more [48:14] people for our businesses that actually [48:17] scale with people [48:18] >> because we're somewhat limited. We've [48:19] got to deliver returns every year. We [48:21] can't scale as quickly as we want or as [48:23] fast as we want. So, I think it's an [48:25] unbelievable opportunity. It's [48:27] accelerating certain things that are [48:28] very cool, but I also don't think it's [48:30] fundamentally changing the core of what [48:32] we do and how we do it. It just makes [48:34] it, you know, more it's a very powerful [48:36] tool for very productive people. [48:38] >> Okay, I'm going to ask you one more [48:40] question that your team told me not to [48:42] ask, [laughter] so we can cut it out. [48:44] >> You can ask me anything. [48:46] >> Uh, I thought it was super cool that you [48:49] were a CEO DJ. like it it elevated your [48:52] brand in this one consumer's mind and [48:55] Goldman's brand. It seemed like [48:59] I just thought it was [ __ ] cool. It [49:01] seemed like you got talked out of that. [49:03] Um [49:04] >> well, a couple of things. First of all, [49:06] I mean I I I I have to go back and tell [49:08] my team it's not me telling my team I [49:10] don't want to talk about this. It's for [49:11] some reason, you know, people on my team [49:13] thinking that we shouldn't talk about [49:14] this. And um [49:16] >> that's not Do you stop doing it? [49:18] >> I stopped doing it publicly. Yeah, [49:20] >> I still do it. [49:21] >> It seemed like people were complaining [49:22] that you were doing doing what happened, [49:25] you know, what happened at at the [49:26] beginning of the first few years. [49:28] >> Yeah. [49:28] >> Um, you know, I wasn't, you know, I was [49:30] doing it eight to 10 times a year [49:31] publicly. It's not I was giving money to [49:33] charity every time I did it. It's not [49:35] it's not as though I was doing it every [49:37] weekend or something, but [49:39] >> it's a hobby. It's a passion. I really [49:42] enjoy it. It's creative. [49:43] >> Yeah. [49:44] >> And when everything was going right, it [49:46] was great. in 2022 when the firm started [49:48] having some speed bumps because the [49:50] environment changed and we were [49:51] wrestling with some of this stuff around [49:52] consumer. [49:53] >> So, you caught some flack. [49:54] >> I caught some flack and and by the way, [49:55] I thought I was going to catch some flak [49:57] if things weren't perfect, but boy, I [50:00] caught a lot more flack than than I [50:02] thought I would. And by the way, I [50:03] caught a lot of flack on a lot of stuff, [50:05] not just the fact that I DJed [50:06] occasionally. [50:08] >> Um, [50:09] and so I kind of reached the conclusion [50:11] this is becoming a distraction. M [50:14] >> and look, I I think it's unfortunate [50:16] because nobody cares that I do lots of [50:18] other things with my free time. They [50:19] really shouldn't care about this. [50:21] >> I still do it privately and I'll do it [50:23] publicly again because I really enjoy it [50:24] and and it's a great it's a great [50:27] creative outlet and I feel lucky that [50:28] I've had the opportunity to do it. [50:30] >> I I think you're cool. [50:32] >> Hardly. [50:33] >> I think you're a great steward for the [50:34] company. They're lucky to have you. I [50:36] want to congratulate you on all your [50:37] success and thanks for coming on the [50:39] podcast. [50:39] >> Well, thank you for having me. I really [50:40] enjoyed it. Good to be with you. [50:42] >> Pleasure. Thanks a lot. [50:43] >> Okay. Hope you like that. He's very [50:46] sharp. Um just my take on his vibe is [50:51] very polished, very articulate, very [50:54] [clears throat] CEOish, and it's a [50:56] similar vibe to other professional CEOs [51:00] I've interviewed like Nikesh at Powalto. [51:03] Um is also like this. Um and I don't [51:06] know you well, but I bet you could use a [51:08] little polish yourself. So maybe [51:10] watching him, you'll learn a few tips. [51:11] Well, I ask everybody on these pods like [51:13] what's important when you're hiring [51:15] people. And he he likes to say you want [51:18] them smart enough. They don't have to be [51:19] rocket science, but kind of smart [51:21] enough. But he really values judgment [51:24] and experience. Most startups don't. Um [51:27] I look at HubSpot like half our exec [51:29] team is kind of homegrown and half is [51:32] hire from the outside. I don't know if [51:34] that's the right ratio, but his is a lot [51:36] of kind of been there, done that people. [51:38] I think that's pretty interesting the [51:39] way he thinks about it. We talk a lot [51:41] about decisions. We talk about the Apple [51:43] decisions. And to me, it's just like [51:45] you're always choosing as a CEO between [51:47] two shitty decisions. No easy decisions [51:50] ever reach your desk. And to me, that's [51:52] just life in the big city. You've got a [51:54] lot of that and get used to it. Okay. I [51:56] like the segment on his Apple decision. [52:00] Uh they made a bet on the consumer [52:02] business and a big partnership in Apple. [52:04] And there's it reminded me of a book a [52:07] guy named Seth Goden wrote a long time [52:09] ago and on the cover of the book was [52:11] something called the dip. It's a line [52:12] and there's a dip and then it comes [52:15] across. And when you're heading down the [52:17] dip on a new project like they were, you [52:19] don't know if you're about to hit the [52:20] bottom and come up the other side. You [52:22] don't know if it just keeps going down. [52:24] In his case, he was like, I think it's [52:25] going to keep going down. We're going to [52:27] kill it. That's very hard to do. We have [52:30] lots of these inside of HubSpot over the [52:32] years where project's going okay. We [52:35] funded it pretty well and the people [52:37] inside that project are like just give [52:39] us six more months and give us some more [52:41] money and we're going to get through the [52:42] dip and it's going to rip. Um versus [52:46] just killing it. And we tend to to give [52:49] it a lifeline. And I think more often [52:51] than not, we should say no to those [52:53] things. Anyway, those are kind of my [52:55] thoughts on decision-m. [52:57] say no more often and kill stuff more [53:00] often. Uh I think people aren't [53:02] disciplined enough about that. Those big [53:05] partnerships are hard. Um and people [53:09] always want to partner with the giant in [53:11] their industry and the life expectancy [53:14] of those partnerships are pretty low. Um [53:18] a few tips on kind of dancing with [53:21] elephants. Uh the first is if you're [53:24] going to do a partnership, you need to [53:25] make sure your incentives are really [53:27] well aligned. [53:29] And you need to make sure like if we do [53:31] this, your P&L is moving and their P&L [53:34] is moving in the correct direction [53:35] because if the spreadsheets aren't [53:37] moving, there's no point really in doing [53:39] it. And the third is you kind of need to [53:42] know the CEO. The CEOs need to be [53:44] committed because as you go through [53:46] annual budgeting cycles, partnerships [53:48] can get defunded. So if the CEOs are [53:50] connected, that helps a lot. Those are [53:53] if you're entering into a big giant [53:55] partnership, try to get those things [53:57] right. Okay. Asked him, you want your [54:00] company around for 150 years. What's [54:01] your advice? First of all, he credited [54:03] luck quite a bit, but he largely [54:05] credited culture. And I'll tell you my [54:07] journey with culture at HubSpot. When we [54:10] first started the company called the [54:12] first three years, my co-founder and I [54:15] were like, "Culture is BS. Don't even [54:18] bring it up. can't like let's not talk [54:20] about it. And then I joined a CEO group [54:24] and one of the CEOs in the CEO group was [54:26] Colin Engel. He made the he was iO [54:30] vacuum cleaners and I remember I sat [54:31] down next to him at that at first it was [54:34] a CEO group meeting and it was my first [54:37] one. I didn't know how it worked but [54:39] they have a topic for the whole day and [54:42] the topic on my first meeting was [54:44] culture ship. And so we went through the [54:47] whole morning and I was talking with [54:49] Colin at lunch and Colin says, you know, [54:51] you don't seem to like this topic much. [54:53] I'm like, nah, I think it's a waste of [54:54] time. And he says to me, you know, [54:57] Brian, [54:58] culture is how people make decisions [55:00] when you're not in a room. Culture is [55:02] how you really scale. Yeah, good. I'm [55:06] dug in. Colin says it's true. I'm I'm [55:08] in. And I go back to the office the next [55:10] day and my co-founder [55:12] um says, "Well, how was the meeting? [55:14] How's Colin?" [55:15] And I said, "It was great. I loved it." [55:18] What'd you talk about? We talked about [55:20] culture. Oh, that's too bad. Waste of [55:23] time. He said, "No, Darmsh. [55:26] Culture is how people make decisions [55:28] when you're not in the room. Culture is [55:30] how you really scale your company." And [55:32] in a very weak moment, he agreed to be [55:34] our culture sar. And we did two things [55:36] on culture that really worked. One was [55:39] we started measuring net promoter scores [55:41] of our employees. And we've been doing [55:42] that for 19 years. Really useful metric. [55:44] And the other is we we basically [55:47] designed the culture. We designed the [55:49] relationship between the company and and [55:51] the employee and we built a deck called [55:54] our culture code. And the way we thought [55:56] about it was we have a product that we [55:58] sell to our customers. It has to be [56:00] unique and really valuable and it pulls [56:02] customers in. Our second product we sell [56:04] to our employees has to be unique and [56:07] really valuable to pull those employees [56:09] in. So we spend a lot of time on it and [56:11] it's part of HubSpot's secret sauce is [56:13] our culture code and the way we kind of [56:15] think about that. So I would I would [56:17] encourage you folks to do that. If you [56:18] want to be around for 150 years, think a [56:21] lot about culture. I like the way he [56:23] talked about serendipity in there and I [56:25] think that matters. There's a book by [56:30] Jim Collins on why amazingly successful [56:33] companies fail. And if you look at like [56:36] the the top 100 most successful [56:38] companies in the world, you know, even [56:40] 25 years ago to today, man, it's just [56:43] totally changed. So like there's a lot [56:45] of disruption that happens. And Jim [56:47] Collins studied these companies that [56:49] stumble. And he's got this whole kind of [56:52] ladder of things that go wrong, but the [56:54] first step on the ladder is hubris born [56:56] of success. And he talks about these [56:58] companies falling into the trap. He's [57:00] got a great quote and [music] it goes, [57:03] "Those who fail to acknowledge the role [57:05] luck may have played in their success [57:07] and thereby overestimate their own merit [57:10] and capabilities will have succumbed to [57:12] hubris." I wish all of you to avoid that [57:16] hubris trap and I'll see you all on the [57:19] next episode of Long Strange Trek. [57:23] [music]