ElevenLabs Crosses $200M Revenue as European AI Outpaces Valley Retention

ElevenLabs营收突破2亿美元，欧洲AI人才留存率跑赢硅谷 在硅谷以外扩张的高增长AI初创企业，只要创始人能承受极端的“996”工作强度并积极向员工普及股权认知，便能从第一天起实现更优异的人才稳定性与全球影响力。 本次讨论探讨了在硅谷之外发展高增长AI初创企业的战术与心理现实。创始人Mati Staniszewski与Anton Osika分享了他们从技术背景走向CEO职位的历程，详细阐释了他们如何构建团队架构、管理持续不断的沟通以及适应快速的技术变革。他们还探讨了欧洲人才储备的独特优势、向员工普及股权概念所面临的挑战，以及抓住这一生一次的AI机遇所需付出的高强度工作投入。 在创办公司前积累数年专业工作经验（如在 Palantir 或 CERN）相比大学刚毕业直接创业更具优势，不仅能深入理解客户真实需求，也更懂得如何招募并管理资深工程团队。 (0:00) 初创公司高管团队适宜采用 50/50 比例，即一半由经验丰富的外部空降高管组成，另一半由公司内部高潜力的本土人才提拔成长，从而兼顾执行经验与成长动力。 (16:07) 面对 AI 技术的快速迭代，僵化的年度规划已不再适用，团队应依靠轻量且具弹性的 6 个月路线图，并在底层研究突破时具备在 24 小时内将其整合至产品的敏捷度。 (21:24) 面对 OpenAI 和 Anthropic 等巨头的竞争，垂直领域的深度聚焦、出色的品牌设计与独特品味构成了最核心的护城河。 (24:50) 在欧洲发展 AI 具备极其稳定且技术过硬的顶尖工程人才红利，但挑战在于缺乏经验丰富的高管储备，同时还需向团队深入科普股权激励的长期价值。 (215:42)

ElevenLabs CEO Mati Staniszewski and Lovable CEO Anton Osika argue that navigating hypergrowth in artificial intelligence requires foundational professional experience, agile planning, and tight vertical focus rather than early-twenties venture building or broad foundational modeling. In a discussion hosted by Sequoia Capital, both founders outline how operating from European talent hubs provides significant recruitment loyalty despite executive hiring bottlenecks and persistent equity education hurdles. Professional Grounding Versus Early-Career Founder Myth (0:00) Both founders reject the notion that starting companies straight out of university is universally advantageous, asserting that launching their businesses in their early twenties would have produced far narrower outcomes. Staniszewski notes that his academic background in mathematics, followed by roles in finance at BlackRock and customer deployment at Palantir, provided essential experience in directly understanding customer needs and translating them into technical roadmaps. Before launching ElevenLabs around voice technology with his high school co-founder, their earlier side ventures included a crypto risk analyzer and recommendation engines. Osika similarly attributes Lovable’s enterprise ambition to his background in physics at CERN, founding the Stockholm AI community in 2015, and serving as CTO of the Y Combinator-backed startup Depict. He observes that starting at 21 would have left him unable to recruit or manage veteran engineers, who would hesitate to work for an inexperienced founder. By contrast, his accumulated technical and operational experience enabled him to target what he identifies as the broader market: creating an interface for the 99.5% of the population that cannot write code. Scaling Teams and Balancing Executive Talent (10:39) Managing hypergrowth—such as ElevenLabs expanding to over 300 employees and exceeding $200 million in revenue since its 2022 founding—has required distinct organizational structures. ElevenLabs organizes staff into approximately 30 cross-functional teams of 5 to 10 members, embedding specialized engineers directly into growth and operations units to automate processes. To maintain oversight while delegating, Staniszewski first learns the fundamentals of functional areas like sales, legal, and finance before hiring leaders, personally managing 15 direct reports. In contrast, Osika intentionally restricts direct reports to five individuals beneath the co-founders to maintain tight coordination before introducing operational complexity. When building executive teams, both founders and the host advocate for an approximate 50/50 balance between proven external veterans and high-slope homegrown leaders, pointing to operational leads who scale rapidly into senior roles without prior executive background. For executive sales searches, both founders relied heavily on investor coaching and back-channel referencing through firms like Accel, Sequoia, and Andreessen Horowitz. Dynamic Planning and Defensibility Against Big Tech (21:24) Addressing rapid platform evolution, both companies reject rigid annual corporate planning cycles in favor of lightweight six-month roadmaps and quarterly alignments. Staniszewski explains that foundational AI voice research is inherently unpredictable, making fixed research timelines counterproductive; instead, ElevenLabs maintains agile product teams designed to integrate internal or external research breakthroughs within a 24-hour window. When asked about competitive pressure from foundational AI model providers like OpenAI and Anthropic, the founders express confidence in specialized product moats. Osika views Lovable as an integrated, multi-step workflow for software development that cannot be duplicated overnight by a foundation model update. Staniszewski adds that while major tech incumbents operate with vast research power, they lack vertical focus; he argues that deep dedication to voice workflows, coupled with product taste, design, and branding, ultimately protects dedicated platforms from generalized alternatives. European Talent Arbitrage and Equity Hurdles (215:42) Building out of European centers like London, Stockholm, and Poland presents both structural handicaps and recruitment advantages. The speakers describe Europe as operating on 'hard mode' due to a scarcity of local operators who have previously scaled companies past 1,000 employees. Furthermore, founders frequently face an equity education barrier, requiring extensive effort to persuade local talent and their families that stock options hold genuine value, a hurdle Staniszewski notes was especially pronounced in Poland until secondary tender offers validated the model. However, both founders emphasize that being a top-tier startup outside Silicon Valley makes them the primary talent destination in their domestic markets, allowing them to hire dedicated, world-class engineers facing less domestic competition. Staniszewski highlights the direct, straightforward communication style of Eastern European engineers as an operational accelerator, while operating from European time zones forces companies to design global products that serve American, European, and Asian markets simultaneously from day one. Executive Time Management and Operating Intensity (27:42) To handle intense operational demands, both executives employ disciplined personal productivity systems. Staniszewski utilizes an AI-assisted classification workflow supported by an executive assistant to triage incoming emails into P0, P1, and P2 priority tiers, enforcing mandatory same-day responses only for critical P0 contacts. To prevent communication sprawl, teams enforce immediate replies for messages taking under five minutes and schedule no-meeting days to protect focus time for proactive strategic thinking. Execution speed is maintained through an unapologetic work culture modeled after high-intensity tech leaders. While not universally enforcing a physical '996' presence, both founders note their teams remain chronically connected, working weekends to capitalize on what they consider a generational AI window. Osika notes that setting explicit expectations during the interview process filters out candidates seeking standard 50-hour workweeks, while maintaining small team units preserves startup zeal as headcount scales. While intense working hours and European talent concentration provide early operational advantages, the discussion leaves open how sustainably these high-intensity paces can be maintained as workforces mature and take on family obligations. Additionally, it remains an unresolved question whether Europe's surging entrepreneurial interest can overcome its scarcity of late-stage scaling executives to foster self-sustaining startup ecosystems capable of producing trillion-dollar technology anchors.

红杉资本（Sequoia Capital）对话ElevenLabs联合创始人Mati Staniszewski与Lovable联合创始人Anton Osika指出，在AI超高速增长浪潮中，企业成功的关键并非过早盲目创业，而是在于结合前期行业经验沉淀，通过动态敏捷的规划节奏、深度的垂直产品“品味”以及高韧性的组织管理来构筑竞争壁垒。 前期行业经验沉淀与双轨制团队架构 (0:00) 两位创始人均在30岁出头迎来爆发式增长，并一致认为若在21岁初出茅庐时创业绝难成功。Mati在BlackRock与Palantir的工作经历让他学会如何直面客户痛点并转化为产品需求；Anton则经历CERN的高难度科研、创立Stockholm AI并担任初创公司Depict的CTO，在观察到全球仅0.5%的人掌握编程后，决定为其余99%的非技术人群构建Lovable。前期职场磨练不仅规避了方向误判，还培养了管理资深技术骨干的能力。 在组织设计上，ElevenLabs自2022年创立以来营收已突破2亿美元，300多名员工被划分为约30个5至10人的敏捷小团队，并将增长与运营工程师直接嵌入具体业务。针对核心团队构成，受访者采取“外部资深专家”与“高潜内部新人”各占50%的双轨模式，例如由物理学背景、曾在Palantir任职的Victoria从零搭建运营体系。在管理跨度方面，Mati维持15位直接汇报者以保持细节下沉，Anton则将直接下属严格控制在5人，通过精简的顶层结构抵御扩张带来的混乱。 动态敏捷规划与垂直领域的品味壁垒 (21:24) 面对底层技术的迅猛迭代，传统的年度规划模式已被两位创始人弃用。Lovable仅维持一个周期为6个月的轻量级产品路线图，并时刻准备依据技术演进做出调整；ElevenLabs则采取周度高灵活性与季度全员对齐相结合的节奏，且对其核心语音研究不设严苛的时间表。创始人解释称，基础研究突破往往具有不可预测性，团队保持高度小规模化正是为了在出现技术突破时，能在24小时内将其整合进产品。 当面对来自OpenAI和Anthropic等模型巨头的竞争隐忧时，两位创始人表现出极强的专注度。Anton指出，Lovable提供的是一套深度整合的多步骤产品工程工作流，竞品极难在黑盒状态下通过单次发布直接复制；Mati则强调，巨头往往缺乏单一场景的聚焦能力，ElevenLabs专注于垂直语音赛道，凭借深耕的工作流、品牌设计以及对产品的独特“品味”（Taste），能够在平台级竞争中形成牢固护城河。 输入过载管理与高强度组织协同 (27:42) 为了在急剧扩张中应对汹涌而来的外部请求，两位创始人摸索出多套高杠杆的抗干扰机制。在日常沟通方面，ElevenLabs利用定制AI脚本结合行政助理将邮件分为P0（当天必回）、P1（周内回复）和P2等级；在Slack处理上则执行“5分钟原则”，即耗时5分钟以内的问题即时处理，其余加入提醒稍后集中解决。此外，设立“周三无会议日”以及在办公区明确说“不”（如佩戴“NO”标识帽），旨在保护用于深度思考的时间，防止公司因战线过长而死于贪多。 在工作文化与执行力上，两位创始人推崇极高强度的工作节奏，团队常态化处于随时在线的“996”甚至更强负荷状态。受访者表示，他们会在面试环节就坦白极高的投入度要求，以此主动筛选掉追求50小时标准工时的候选人。在他们看来，当前AI浪潮属于“一生一次的时代机遇”，这种高预期与10人以下小组的紧密协作相结合，能够有效维系企业在快速扩张期的创业战斗力。 欧洲科技生态的劣势与差异化人才红利 (215:42) 在欧洲（如伦敦、波兰和斯德哥尔摩）打造世界级AI企业常被称为“困难模式”。相比于硅谷随时可以触达的成熟资本与成熟操盘手网络，欧洲缺乏具有千人规模企业管理经验的后期高管；同时，欧洲尤其是东欧存在显著的期权认知鸿沟，创始人往往需要花费巨大精力去教育员工甚至其家属理解股权价值，甚至曾出现过“逼迫员工接受期权”的极端情况。 然而，“困难模式”也催生了独特的竞争优势。受限于本土市场规模，欧洲初创企业从创立第一天起就必须面向全球市场开发产品；加之欧洲缺乏本土万亿美元级科技巨头，像ElevenLabs和Lovable这类头部AI初创企业便成为顶尖技术人才的绝对首选。波兰等地工程师不仅技术功底扎实，且沟通极其直率，为团队快速迭代提供了强大支撑；此外，欧洲顶尖工程院校中愿加入初创公司的学生比例已上升至约80%，正为生态演进注入长期动力。 本期访谈展现了新一代欧洲AI独角兽如何依靠技术沉淀、极致聚焦与高强度执行打破硅谷中心主义，但对话同时留下了一个开放性挑战：随着企业规模进一步突破千人关口，欧洲本土缺乏后期规模化运营人才的生态短板，以及过度依赖创始人个人高负荷投入的管理模式，能否在更长周期内支撑企业的持续增长，仍有待时间检验。

[0:00] Mati Staniszewski: first glimpse into how to build something from scratch. [4:12] Anton Osika: rim their technical ideas into existence. [10:39] Mati Staniszewski: zoom out and zoom in extremely quickly [19:23] Mati Staniszewski: sales people know how to sell themselves. [21:24] Anton Osika: We've done very little planning. [23:29] Mati Staniszewski: You don't know what's going to come out [211:40] Mati Staniszewski: Slack is a firestorm [211:40] Anton Osika: there's a certain type of creativity that you also only get like when you're bored. [215:42] Anton Osika: yearning for a possibility to literally change the world. [219:21] Mati Staniszewski: almost force the employees to take the equity. [48:04] Anton Osika: a smaller cog in a big machine. [50:26] Host: shit umbrella where all the [shit] rains on you and you get an umbrella for your whole organization.

[0:00] 5% of the world can even code and much [0:03] fewer can build a great product like [0:05] Mati and his co-founder right so I [0:08] decided let's build something for the [0:10] 99% and not this productivity boost for [0:13] developers and that's going to be a [0:14] completely new type of interface so here [0:17] we don't give any timelines we do [0:19] research initiatives we want to plan you [0:21] need to stay nimble that like the moment [0:23] it comes out you have 24 hours to start [0:25] integrating that into your product [0:26] that's like the most important time to [0:28] really to really be ahead [0:36] >> [music] [0:47] >> Okay, this is a real treat. Um, I [0:49] interviewed two friends of mine, Matty [0:52] from 11 Labs and Anton from Lovable. two [0:55] terrific CEOs and companies that are [0:58] absolutely ripping and they're both [1:00] doing it from ye old Europe. So, we're [1:03] going to get into it on the Europe [1:04] thing, but there's some topics that are [1:06] just terrific. These two are kind of [1:08] blossoming before our eyes. They're [1:10] right in the the heart of hyperrowth. [1:13] And we get to see like how they think [1:14] about co-founders, how they're thinking [1:16] about delegation and letting go, how [1:19] they're thinking about building their [1:20] exec teams, managing all the chaos [1:23] coming in at them. When you're in [1:24] hyperrowth, there's just a lot of chaos [1:26] and really just pushing to keep the [1:28] speed up. It's a really good episode. I [1:30] hope you enjoy it and I'll be back at [1:32] the end with my takes. Okay, you two are [1:36] in your early 30s, similar ages. Uh [1:40] you've got some very good experience [1:42] under your belt. Um a lot of founders [1:45] I'm meeting and a lot of founders [1:47] getting funded are right in school, [1:48] right out of school, 21, 22. What would [1:51] your companies be like if you had [1:53] started them when you were 21 or 22? [1:55] I'll let you go. [1:56] >> Well, I think I think it would be have [1:58] have been hard. Uh I think it still [2:01] would have the pleasure of working with [2:02] my co-founder. I know him since high [2:04] school. Okay. [2:05] >> Uh so we always were best friends. We [2:06] did everything together. [2:08] >> This is Mati from 11 Labs. [2:10] >> Exactly. So uh so uh I'm working across [2:13] voice AI research and product [2:14] deployment. We are on a mission to [2:15] create the voice of technology. Um so I [2:18] think I still would have started without [2:19] that with my co-founder which would have [2:21] been the advantage. The disadvantage is [2:23] I don't know how I would approach the [2:25] first customers. How the world like at [2:28] the time I didn't even know the world of [2:29] entrepreneurship existed. So I studied [2:31] mathematics. uh when you study [2:33] mathematics the clear career paths you [2:35] take is either finance or consulting. I [2:38] chose finance. I joined Black Rockck. Um [2:40] and then of only after Black Rockck I [2:42] learned about Palunteer uh and decided [2:44] to join them where it turned out you can [2:46] actually be deployed with the customer, [2:48] learn about the problems, try to [2:49] understand those problems and bring them [2:50] back and build a product which was like [2:52] the first glimpse into how to build [2:54] something from scratch. Uh but before [2:56] that was still some further out of I [2:59] didn't know how to approach. Um so I [3:00] don't think I would be able to [3:02] understand the first early dynamics of [3:04] starting something in the same way. [3:06] >> Okay. you're several hundred million in [3:08] revenue. If you would started right out [3:09] of school with your buddy, [3:12] where would you be? [3:14] >> Nowhere. [3:15] >> You know, the other thing I I think we [3:17] would have probably worked on a very [3:19] different idea. I think it took [3:20] >> the of course the pleasure of having the [3:23] the co-ounder I know inside out. Um then [3:26] over the years got experience of working [3:27] at other companies which helped us [3:29] understand some of the dynamics. He also [3:31] at Google at Palanteer. So we understand [3:32] how to build things at scale. But then [3:35] the third thing which I think was the [3:36] most important was was the idea. And of [3:37] course through the years we looked into [3:39] different projects from trying to build [3:42] a crypto risk analyzer during the crypto [3:44] days which was really hard uh to [3:46] recommendation system. But then when we [3:48] stumbled on on voice we knew that a this [3:51] is a good timing where the technology is [3:53] going for the shift. We can be part of [3:54] that shift of that technology and then [3:56] two this is a huge problem that uh that [3:58] the problem that the users the world [4:00] have and we can solve it. If I started [4:03] something on 21 22, I just don't think [4:05] we would work on the same idea and [4:07] probably uh wouldn't understand the pain [4:09] the same way we do now that that we [4:11] approached voice. [4:12] >> Got it. Anton lovable also on fire. If [4:15] you were started this company right out [4:17] of school, what would it be like? [4:18] [snorts] [4:19] >> Um I I also think it might have not been [4:22] as ambitious because I mean I had never [4:24] done something entrepreneurial. Um, and [4:27] the biggest disadvantage being that [4:30] young would have been that I wouldn't [4:32] know like why to hire very senior [4:34] engineers and what may like what type of [4:36] great senior engineers are out there. [4:38] >> Um, because like they don't want they [4:40] will be very scared of working for me. [4:42] Um, but I think I would have a lot of [4:44] other advantages maybe even being more [4:46] naive. Um, and [4:49] already then I think I surrounded myself [4:51] by super super smart people. So I I [4:53] could have I think I could have built [4:54] something uh very different with fast [4:57] iteration place could have been [4:58] successful. [4:59] >> And I got a little bit of what you took [5:01] from Palunteer. Um you had some very [5:03] interesting experiences before lovable. [5:06] Can you talk a little bit about them and [5:07] what kind of you took from those that [5:09] you're le leveraging at lovable? [5:11] >> Yeah sure. So if you go way way back, we [5:13] I also studied like sciences and physics [5:16] specifically and when I was uh I did [5:18] this long internship at CERN where uh I [5:22] understood a certain particle physics [5:24] and where they discovered a lot of the [5:27] recent physics but but there's a lot of [5:29] smart people there and I was like wait [5:31] they're all working on these impossible [5:33] problems without any elasticity. So, uh [5:35] I'm not going to be here. I'm going to [5:37] go u applying great innovation to the [5:41] real world. Um and then um I was kind of [5:45] inspired to start a company when I was [5:47] um in university which I'm very happy [5:49] about but I uh ended up um doing doing [5:53] some finance actually unfortunately [5:55] unfortunately [laughter] [5:57] >> which was a bit too boring for me. Okay. [5:59] Um but fortunately I started this um [6:02] community Stockholm AI and this was [6:04] around when deep learning was like [6:05] taking off in 2015 16 and I I I did the [6:10] foundation models of training current [6:13] new like large small language models [6:15] before it was cool and met great people [6:17] there and one was the founder at SA to [6:20] Joel who recently sold Sonnet for to [6:23] workday for a billion dollars. [6:24] >> Yes, congratulations. [6:25] >> Yes, great job by the team there. I mean [6:27] my contribution was bring in some of [6:29] those smart people that went on to to [6:31] grow it to what what it became. Um and I [6:33] was there for three years and it was [6:35] like oh AI like let's build we were you [6:38] all was super young uh but uh we we [6:41] learned super fast and it it became [6:43] successful. Then I joined uh as a [6:45] co-founder at a company that just got [6:48] into YC um and that was in [6:50] recommendation systems specifically for [6:52] e-commerce. uh that could have been [6:54] absolutely wildly successful the company [6:56] it had a lot of things going for it but [6:59] um after a bit of momentum loss and my [7:03] co-f founder and I like uh and me being [7:07] I I wanted to pivot to something more [7:09] successful that that I can say than [7:10] e-commerce um but I decided to do some [7:13] do do the most possible ambitious thing [7:16] and all my life I've been uh [7:20] like approached by people who wanted to [7:23] find a great engineer to help them [7:25] realize their dreams or the ideas. uh [7:27] the world is full of them like 0.5% of [7:30] the world can even code and much fewer [7:32] can build a great product like Mati and [7:35] his co-founder right so um I decided [7:39] let's build something for the 99% and [7:41] not this productivity boost for [7:43] developers and that's going to be a [7:44] completely new type of interface [7:47] >> where you um rim your idea of some [7:51] technical AI product into existence and [7:54] that's what we set out to build [7:56] >> okay So um your first company you were [7:59] the founding engineer. [8:00] >> Yeah. [8:01] >> Your next company depict you were [8:03] co-founder CTO. Now you're CEO. Is it [8:06] everything you ever hoped? [8:08] >> Uh it's a good question. I I think it's [8:11] quite uh different. And what I love [8:13] about it is that I get to know myself um [8:17] and like how to surround myself with the [8:20] right like complimentary skill sets um [8:23] and challen be challenged in all the [8:25] possible ways much more than being a [8:26] co-founder and CTO [8:28] >> and um like I run the company on founder [8:33] mode I would mostly empathize with uh [8:36] but at this stage um I mean there's a a [8:39] big shift in be in focusing on [8:41] empowering unblocking the leaders in the [8:44] company. [8:44] >> Um, and I mean I I like that and it's [8:48] more analytical [8:50] >> is being a CEO what you thought like [8:52] what surprised you about it? [8:54] >> Um, you have to do so many things or I [8:57] mean unless you're very uh disciplined [9:00] about what what you delegate and how you [9:01] delegate it. It's like there's all so [9:04] many many different things thrown at you [9:06] especially as you start hyperscaling. [9:09] >> Yes. Um, how about for you? You're CEO, [9:12] your first time CEO. What's harder than [9:15] you thought? What's easier than the [9:16] thought? What's different than you [9:18] thought? [9:20] >> Yeah, I think the the first one is [9:22] definitely you want to hire people [9:23] better than yourself in all those areas [9:25] that that you know for the first time. [9:26] In our case, things like legal or [9:28] finance or um building the gotom market [9:31] motion in sales, like all of these [9:33] things which I've seen kind of results [9:36] of that work but never have actually [9:38] done the work. Yeah. [9:39] >> So it was a very quick learning of like [9:41] how do you do that so you actually [9:42] understand it and you need to understand [9:43] at least a little bit to then be able [9:45] and assess the person that you want to [9:47] bring in. So that was kind of the the [9:49] two things that that uh they now [9:50] repetitively try to do when we have a [9:52] new area. I'm trying to first put myself [9:54] in those shoes, understand the basics [9:56] and then hire persons I know that they [9:57] are doing that work. And the delegation [10:00] too was uh was something that I I think [10:02] I hold on for for too long like like to [10:05] to do myself rather than than delegate. [10:07] And then actually how to delegate was an [10:09] interesting piece in itself where um I [10:13] think you you do want to give a lot of a [10:15] lot of the the the work to other leaders [10:17] that you hire the other people that you [10:18] grow um but you still want to understand [10:21] the detail that's happening and then [10:22] like how do you let them own it be the [10:25] leaders they want to be but still remain [10:27] in the details in the funer mode to to [10:29] be able to jump in when needed. uh that [10:31] balance of like how do you interact [10:32] through that is is is is a tricky thing [10:35] that uh that is still I think a [10:37] continuous learning for me [10:39] >> and like I found that there's kind of [10:40] three types of CEOs is people who are [10:43] really in all the details in in [10:45] everyone's shorts all the time there are [10:48] CEOs that are pretty high level and like [10:51] I have an expression keep your feet in [10:52] the ground your head in the head in the [10:54] clouds or you're in the details and [10:56] you're up high some people who stay very [10:57] high and then there's what I call [10:59] spelunkers people kind of go down deep [11:01] in one thing for a while, then come back [11:03] out and go down into another thing. Have [11:06] you got one of those models? Is that is [11:09] that like what are you? It sounds like [11:10] you're the first. [11:12] >> I do like the details. I think similar [11:14] like the the uh I think to to to how [11:17] Anon um mentioned that that you operate [11:20] is like you do want the the fun. You [11:22] want to understand the product. You want [11:23] to actually work with the product all [11:24] the time. So you know how to actually um [11:28] uh use the product better than than than [11:30] most. So I'm trying to trying to stay [11:32] extremely detailed and like what it is [11:34] that we are shipping, how we're shipping [11:35] it, how it works behind the scenes. So [11:37] that's probably the the key thing. Um I [11:40] like your analogy of of uh um head in [11:43] the clouds, the [11:46] the feet on the ground. I think the the [11:48] the thing that I'm trying and I and I [11:50] think uh where where the the magic [11:52] happens if you do it well is being able [11:54] to zoom out and zoom zoom in extremely [11:56] quickly before those context. So you're [11:58] able to understand the problem, zoom [12:00] into the detail, you understand the [12:01] detail and then the next second you need [12:03] to go to another problem which requires [12:05] the same activity. [12:05] >> There's a lot of context switching being [12:07] a CEO. [12:07] >> Exactly. And that's uh and you kind of [12:10] need to be immediate in that. um um my [12:13] co-founder who who is the smartest [12:14] person I know and is kind of leading the [12:16] research uh work in his case he needs to [12:20] go extremely deep for very long time so [12:22] we like have very we frequently speak [12:24] about this very different way of [12:26] approaching the the work where one is [12:28] like all about context switching the [12:29] other one is all about going as deep as [12:30] possible [12:31] >> and how about what are you thinking on [12:33] how are you feeling about delegation is [12:35] it natural just delegate all this stuff [12:36] or is it like ah I want to be in the [12:38] details I had a hard I had a very hard [12:40] time delegating [12:42] Um I think it's often the ah when I'm [12:45] I'm very impatient generally and [12:49] >> um like [laughter] there is some [12:51] friction when I when there's many things [12:54] that are feel very urgent and I know [12:56] know one thing but maybe not all the [12:58] other ones. [12:59] >> Are you driving people crazy? [13:01] >> Um no mostly no. Mostly they like me. [13:03] They they feel where I'm coming from and [13:05] I usually this this is coming from a [13:07] good place. Um [13:08] >> okay let's talk about team. You just [13:09] hired a friend of mine to run sales. [13:12] >> Yeah. [13:12] >> Um you're building out your team. How [13:14] are you thinking about building out your [13:16] team, your senior team in particular? [13:18] And then are you looking [13:20] >> are you looking for people with high [13:21] slope or high experience? [13:23] >> Oh, that's a good question. I I think [13:25] like at this stage um there's some [13:28] there's many things we just like need to [13:31] be done uh very predictably and um like [13:37] because of like all the opportunities [13:38] that are out there and hiring people who [13:40] have done it before and are maybe [13:44] wouldn't be as effective early stage [13:46] because they're like set in their ways [13:48] that that is very effective. It's very [13:50] effective. [13:51] >> Oh, wait. So you you lean towards [13:52] experience not necessarily [13:54] >> for the things that have to get done we [13:55] know like what those things are it is [13:58] effective to like what [13:59] >> uh so for sales um everything that come [14:02] goes under sales a lot of fun sub [14:03] functions of marketing that has like all [14:05] of this you're [14:06] >> looking for experience there [14:07] >> I'm looking for experience and then so [14:10] uh at least to run them and then um one [14:13] if you have capacity to also hire people [14:15] people with high slopes and who are like [14:18] generalists and you also find a good way [14:20] to be able to move them around in the [14:21] company. Um, that's something that has [14:24] worked really well for us. [14:26] >> Um, I I can cannot predict how it's [14:28] going to work when there's more [14:30] structure in the company, but I'm [14:32] committed to finding a good experiment. [14:34] >> Any of these highs slope generalists who [14:36] you're moving around on your senior [14:38] team, direct reports, senior team [14:39] >> senior team or [14:41] >> any of are any of your direct reports [14:43] any of these [14:44] >> you know high slope people moving [14:46] around? um not on my like actual [14:49] leadership team, but many of the ones I [14:51] work with dayto-day who like feel like [14:53] they're reporting directly to me on many [14:55] things are more of the highest. [14:56] >> Yeah. [14:57] >> How about you on the team? You're [14:58] building you're got a little you've got [14:59] a few hundred employees. You're less [15:01] than 100. [15:02] >> Um [15:03] >> what are you thinking about the senior [15:04] team? What are you looking for? Have you [15:06] had any misfires? [15:08] >> In our case, so we have we have we have [15:10] over 300 people, but uh inside of the [15:12] company, it's effectively a lot of small [15:14] teams has 30 teams of five to 10 people. [15:16] And it usually is a combination of um [15:19] depending on the space either few with [15:22] with with with the experience with the [15:24] past um work in that space and then [15:26] usually infused with some of the high [15:28] slope and we we like that because a you [15:31] get the generalists that can adopt a lot [15:33] of the new tooling and kind of do new [15:35] work. Um and second we try to bring a [15:37] lot the engineers across in some of [15:38] those teams. So even in a traditional [15:40] growth team, we have growth engineers [15:42] and the ops team will have operations [15:44] engineering to help automate a lot of [15:46] the process. Um sometimes use lovable in [15:49] the in the process to to help to help [15:51] with that work and um and and that has [15:54] that has helped tremendously to kind of [15:56] get the experience the domain expertise [15:58] while while creating the new the new [16:01] process across the leadership. So then [16:03] all those team roll up to each effective [16:05] lead. So we have a go to market leads. [16:07] Um then the engineering leads. [16:09] >> How many direct reports do you have? [16:10] >> I have 15 direct reports. [16:12] >> That's a lot. Okay. And that crew of 15 [16:16] are they kind of young hungry grow up at [16:19] the company high slope or are they kind [16:21] of been there done that? [16:23] >> Almost exactly half half. So half half [16:26] have done that before. Usually are [16:27] growing with the role. Of course we are [16:29] growing extremely quickly. So we grew [16:30] from from we started 2022 from zero to [16:33] now over 200 million in revenue. So that [16:36] growth has been quick for for everybody. [16:38] So everybody's learning at at the same [16:40] time. But half of them have seen that [16:42] before and the other half are [16:45] >> the uh 50/50. Like at HubSpot we were [16:48] kind of the same. I was I'd look around [16:50] the table about half grew up with the [16:52] company very high slope and half had a [16:55] lot of experience. That felt right to [16:57] me. Does that feel right to you? It [16:59] does. It's so it's it's in in a many [17:01] ways the people that are there have [17:03] grown with the company incredibly. Uh [17:06] Victoria who leads our ops team has [17:08] never done anything like this before, [17:10] right? [17:10] >> And uh also from palunteer background so [17:13] also physics background so trying to [17:15] like create the process as as we go [17:17] across and has grown incredibly with the [17:19] company and then others um kind of are [17:22] still super important for the company [17:23] but will stay in more of the product [17:25] teams or on the IC roles in other parts. [17:28] How about you on the on the you know [17:30] what's your mix of kind of homegrown and [17:32] been there done that you're probably [17:34] just starting to hire execs I guess from [17:36] the outside. [17:36] >> Yeah. So I built out this this [17:39] leadership team which is like seven [17:40] people with my co. [17:41] >> So you have seven direct reports. [17:43] >> Yeah. So with without me and my coffer [17:46] it's five direct reports. Yeah. [17:48] >> And officially everyone else like [17:50] reports into them. [17:51] >> Yeah. And [17:52] >> do you feel like you got that right or [17:53] over time it's going to get much bigger [17:55] or where you at? Like I think of Jensen [17:58] Huang has 45 direct reports and [18:00] >> you have a lot too now. [18:02] >> No, I didn't. I had like 10. No. Uh [18:05] yeah. And it's amazing to me that they [18:06] got people with 45 or 50 and people with [18:09] three. Um there's such a range. Anyway, [18:12] it it was the five intentional or it [18:13] just kind of happened. [18:14] >> Uh it was intentional. Very intentional. [18:16] Yeah. Uh to like add a lot more add a [18:19] lot more structure. And then if you I [18:21] think generally like if you say okay [18:23] let's try to have a lot of structure and [18:24] then it's easier to add more like [18:27] chaotic things on top of that. [18:28] >> Yeah. [18:29] >> And see how that works. [18:30] >> Okay. [18:30] >> So you're hiring we we kind of work [18:32] together on that head of sales search. [18:34] >> How are you thinking about these senior [18:37] searches? How are you deciding? You know [18:39] you never run a sales or it's a it's a [18:42] hard thing like [18:44] >> lots of people are in your shoes like [18:45] how are you making those calls? [18:48] >> Yes. O with the head of sales I worked I [18:51] worked closely with Jany at Excel who [18:53] had done this before many times. [18:54] >> Okay. Danny Hersburg from [18:57] Andy. Exactly. So and um [19:00] >> they coached you. they got they got gave [19:01] me a lot of impact input on it and um I [19:04] mean in the end it was me spending a lot [19:07] of time with this candidates and them [19:08] spending time with the team um and [19:11] presenting how they would do things and [19:14] that that felt like that gave a lot of [19:16] instilled a lot of confidence [19:18] >> okay for me [19:19] >> so you had a bunch of help [19:21] >> yeah spoke to many people [19:23] >> and how on your side same thing you [19:25] hadn't run a sale you haven't none of us [19:27] have done what we did but you hadn't run [19:29] a sales or you had to make a decision on [19:31] a sales leader. You had a lot of [19:32] qualified candidates. How did you go [19:34] about it? [19:35] >> Yeah, you it's a tricky one and [19:37] especially I think for sales the sales [19:39] people know how to sell themselves. They [19:40] need to be able so they are so you kind [19:42] of need to filter through like do they [19:44] actually uh know how to sell but they [19:46] are all like good at it. So uh we we are [19:49] in a good setup where one of the sales [19:51] people was our investor. So we've seen [19:53] him actually help um us advise before he [19:57] became a salesperson. So when when we [19:59] started the company we started getting [20:00] enterprise inbound um we realized okay [20:03] we can start something very quickly and [20:05] he already has spent so much time with [20:06] us then it became natural okay we want [20:08] to bring that person in um and then as [20:11] we've hired other roles we have of [20:13] course amazing investors uh across like [20:15] SEOA who are on recent team who are [20:18] helping us uh on that hunt so we would [20:21] partner very closely with the domain [20:22] experts to to to to help us through the [20:25] network through the back references to [20:27] make sure that they are right ones. I [20:28] think the back references really helps [20:30] across that beyond the spending time [20:31] with the with the team which which I [20:33] think is crucial. Um and then the other [20:36] part which which I haven't realized [20:37] until later is the for sales [20:39] specifically is that you are hiring of [20:41] course a great individual for creating [20:43] the sales uh playbook helping you sell [20:45] into the enterprises but then ultimately [20:48] the person you hire they will set the [20:49] culture for the sales team too like a [20:51] lot of the people they will hire will be [20:53] so similar in the approach to that work [20:56] um which uh which I didn't appreciate [20:58] until the after the fact I was happy [21:00] that the culture was very aligned but uh [21:02] but then you can See they are very much [21:04] similar and we have Europe and US sales [21:07] team they're slightly different okay the [21:09] Europe is a lot more confident like the [21:12] a little bit like a lot the the European [21:14] uh versus US upbringing so a lot more [21:16] confident than our Europe European [21:18] counterparts that take more of like [21:19] partner sales approach [21:21] >> u but they have core similar values [21:23] which which helps [21:24] >> okay one of the things that confuses me [21:26] about life today as a CEO is like from [21:30] HubSpot from let's call it we went [21:33] public in 2012 until I sat down 2000 [21:35] 2020. We had an annual planning cycle [21:38] and the world just didn't change a whole [21:39] lot every year. How the hell do you guys [21:42] plan with the changes going on [21:44] underneath? Like what's your cycle? How [21:46] do you do it? [21:48] >> So, we've done very little planning. [21:50] >> Okay. Um and I think that's pretty smart [21:54] because uh you can like everything is [21:56] changing very rapidly on as at least for [22:00] our I mean our B2B offering is like [22:03] enterprises are uh huge ones are using [22:06] our product to a huge extent. Um we are [22:10] just like giving trying to give them uh [22:13] the time they can get like as as much [22:15] time as you can get um and not being [22:17] like okay this is our ICP this is [22:19] exactly the sales process at least. so [22:20] far. Um, but there there's like tens of [22:23] thousand people in a hackathon. Some [22:25] many of the world's like largest [22:28] healthcare companies using us and we um [22:33] we will I think start taking a step back [22:35] uh and being okay where are we seeing u [22:39] like from much better data and analytics [22:41] as well. How where are we going to [22:43] focus? [22:43] >> Okay, let me push back a little bit. You [22:45] just had a big release that looks [22:47] amazing. [22:48] >> You must have planned for that. You just [22:49] didn't pull that out of a hackathon last [22:51] week. [22:51] >> Yeah. So, on [laughter] the first side, [22:53] I mean, we we we do have a launch road [22:55] map and like it goes out six No, it goes [22:58] out like six months and it's just that I [23:00] I'm sure it's [23:02] >> uh going to change. [23:03] >> Okay. So, there's a there's a [23:05] lightweight six-month product roadmap. [23:07] Yeah. [23:07] >> Okay. Got it. And it's pretty flexible [23:09] like within that six months deep pivot. [23:11] >> Yeah. I do now at this uh size of the [23:13] company. Um we are of course going into [23:17] longer time horizons sometime. [23:19] >> Yeah, I think it's just hard to plan [23:21] more than six months right now with all [23:22] the underlying platform changes. Um I [23:26] can't Yeah, it's an interesting time to [23:27] be a CEO. How about over at 11 Labs like [23:29] what's the cycle? [23:31] >> The cycle so we do um so the teams have [23:34] a pretty high flexibility in how they [23:36] operate week to week. So they can kind [23:38] of take different directions but on a [23:40] quarterly basis we'll we'll get the [23:42] teams together. They'll spend up to a [23:44] day effectively outlining what are the [23:46] initiatives they want to run for the [23:47] next quarter and then it's even less for [23:50] the team itself. Sometimes it helps [23:51] formalize a lot of the ideas but it's [23:53] more valuable for the teams around so [23:55] they know what to expect so they can [23:56] learn from that that process. and we [23:59] just came back from from an offsite with [24:00] the entire team uh where we where we are [24:03] looking like what where we would like to [24:05] be as a company in 2026 and in the next [24:08] three years. Uh the thing that's [24:09] probably the hardest is research. So we [24:11] do also the foundational part for for [24:13] voice. Yeah. Um have a lot of research [24:16] teams that that that uh that crank up [24:18] some of the best models out there and [24:20] that's of course so hard to predict. So [24:22] here we don't give any timelines. We do [24:24] research initiatives we want to plan. So [24:26] that's the one that goes out of the [24:28] cycle. These are like [24:29] >> you don't know what's going to come out. [24:30] It's very different than [24:31] >> you don't know. You need to stay nimble [24:33] that like the moment it comes out. [24:34] That's why the small teams have been [24:36] helped so much as well because the [24:38] moment something comes out either [24:39] internally from our research team or [24:41] from other teams, you know that this is [24:43] like you have 24 hours to start [24:45] integrating that into your product. [24:47] That's like the most important time to [24:49] really to really be ahead. [24:50] >> Okay. Speaking of planning, I remember [24:52] in the early days of HubSpot before we [24:54] were CRM, we were a marketing app. [24:56] [snorts] And every year I would go to [24:58] the Salesforce.com conference called [25:00] Dreamforce and I sit in the audience and [25:03] our pitch by the way at that time was [25:05] Salesforce.com is to sales as HubSpot is [25:08] to marketing. And we would always think [25:10] in the back of our head until [25:11] Salesforce.com wants to become the [25:13] Salesforce.com marketing. And so we'd [25:15] sit in the audience every year hoping [25:17] [snorts] [25:17] they didn't announce a marketing [25:19] product. And sure enough, 2012 was their [25:22] that was the marketing year. They bought [25:24] four marketing companies and they really [25:26] went for it. We ended up pivoting and [25:28] going to CRM. I would imagine you have a [25:31] similar feeling when Anthropics doing a [25:33] big announcement or OpenAI's having a [25:35] big announcement. Even HubSpot is like [25:37] we don't know is OpenAI going to be a [25:39] platform company like Google was or are [25:41] they going to go build vertical apps? [25:43] Are you as paranoid as I was or are you [25:46] not that worried? Yeah, I mean they do [25:49] have a lot of distribution out of the [25:51] box. Uh so that's it would hurt if [25:56] >> are you or do you sit there like worried [25:58] when [snorts] they're doing their [25:59] announcements? Are they going to [26:00] >> not really know like I have so many [26:02] things to think about. Um I catch up on [26:04] like on the recent announcement and I'm [26:06] I'm sure they will announce something. [26:09] >> I would imagine they [26:11] will be inferior. a [26:13] >> you've got a head start and [26:15] >> but you kind of like I kind of think it [26:17] would be an obvious thing for them to [26:18] build. [26:18] >> Yeah. [26:19] >> You know something yet like there what [26:22] we're building is this full platform [26:24] where you serving like most of the [26:27] product needs for product anti-product [26:29] engineering organization and that uh [26:31] takes a lot of iteration steps to get to [26:33] the to the full thing and uh [26:36] >> unless they're like building that out [26:37] completely in the dark and then [26:39] launching it I don't think there it's [26:40] going to be a threat from the first [26:42] launch. Okay. I'm very impressed with [26:43] your lack of paranoia. Are you paran I [26:45] would are anyway are you like I was [26:47] paranoid nervous about what's going to [26:49] happen. [26:50] >> Definitely a little always nervous and [26:51] watching closely I mean they have great [26:53] great research teams. So so they they [26:55] they we know that they will be pushing [26:57] into the voice space. Yes. Um at the at [27:00] the same time given like the spread of [27:02] work that you just mentioned the corlary [27:05] is they lack focus and we are fully [27:07] focused on voice whether that's creating [27:09] the research or products for creating [27:11] voice agent or creating creative [27:13] workflows which does take a lot of [27:15] iterations to actually bring that to the [27:17] user to make it the best experience that [27:19] they require to solve their problems [27:21] solve their integrations so I do think [27:23] it's uh you know it's it's it's going to [27:26] become increasingly competitive [27:27] especially on the research But that's [27:29] where the product platform brand the [27:32] design the taste will matter a lot more. [27:34] Something we speak a little bit with [27:35] Anton every so often and that will be [27:38] the big piece where companies going deep [27:41] into that space will will win. [27:42] >> Okay. Speaking of taste, one thing I [27:45] really like about both of you is I think [27:47] you have taste particularly in your [27:49] marketing. Like you guys do some [27:51] interesting stuff. You are fantastic on [27:54] Twitter. [laughter] Fantastic on [27:56] Twitter. You're one of my favorite [27:57] follows. [27:58] How much time are you spending doing it? [28:00] Do you do it all yourself? Uh [28:04] you're you're you're out there on stuff. [28:07] Like just talk about your Twitter [28:09] strategy. [28:09] >> Yeah, sure. [28:10] >> Um [28:11] >> did you like did you tweet just before [28:12] we got in here? Like what's the deal? [28:15] >> No, but um I I do spend quite some time [28:18] on it and it feels like oh my god, I'm [28:20] doing so many there. I'm a CEO. I'm [28:22] doing so many things and then I have to [28:23] sit down every week and and get some of [28:25] this some of the post right. Um, but I [28:28] do have a team that comes to me with [28:30] ideas and like every Monday we go [28:32] through it's it's 15 minutes in the [28:33] calendar. Okay. Usually takes more time. [28:36] >> They bring you here's a tweet that would [28:37] be good. [28:37] >> No, they bring me ideas like okay should [28:40] we do something on this and I I like [28:41] drop a lot of um ideas as well in the [28:44] Slack channel and uh um but this is not [28:47] their full-time job either. So it's it's [28:49] a bit it's it's like it's not a proper [28:52] function in the company. [28:54] >> It's very very effective in my opinion. [28:56] like your brand is very strong. It [28:59] >> is it working really well? Are you [29:01] actually pressing the button when the [29:03] tweak goes out or is somebody doing it [29:04] for you? [29:05] >> It's usually me. I I So there there's an [29:09] actually a very good company called the [29:11] typefully that you can draft them in and [29:13] then you can like collaborate on them. [29:15] Okay. [29:15] >> Uh and I I usually the one who schedule [29:18] them in that. Okay. [29:20] >> So I do the final process. [29:21] >> I would keep going and get even whackier [29:22] if I were you. [laughter] [29:24] >> Thank you. [29:25] >> I think you're killing it. [29:27] >> You guys um are busy. I remember when I [29:31] was your size [29:33] um I get I got asked to do so much [ __ ] [29:37] Speak at my conference. Can you [29:39] interview my daughter? Can you talk to [29:41] this venture capitalist, this candidate? [29:44] It's just an endless like [29:47] of [snorts] asks and it's chaotic and [29:50] the firm is asking you to do all that [29:52] kind of stuff. How do you guys manage [29:55] just like kind of tactically manage the [29:57] chaos, manage your schedule, get [ __ ] [30:00] done in the in the hurricane of of [30:04] requests, inputs, chaos? Any tricks? [30:08] >> A few few tricks. Few tricks for sure. [30:10] The the I think the we we run a lot of [30:13] the company on Slack. So the Slack is [30:15] one part and of course the email is [30:16] especially the external piece for email. [30:18] Uh now it's a combination of two. uh my [30:21] my brilliant assistant Hana is helping [30:23] and the script is helping to autocl [30:25] classify a lot of emails to effectively [30:27] P 0 P1 P2 P 0 is [30:30] >> somebody else is reading your emails and [30:31] P 0 [30:32] >> someone else is reading and now we have [30:33] a script as well to autocl classify them [30:35] >> okay [30:36] >> and uh and then P 0 is [30:38] >> that is interesting [30:38] >> it's super helpful [30:39] >> okay [30:40] >> same day reply on the P 0 P1 can wait [30:42] through the week P2 not important I can [30:45] I can I I can take out and then I have [30:47] like unblock piece [30:48] >> so somebody's reading your emails tells [30:50] us like hey you need to respond to this [30:51] is P 0 [30:52] >> labels so every email gets a label and [30:55] then [30:55] >> by a homo sapien [30:56] >> by a homo sapiens and a script so now [30:59] it's a combination of both so script [31:01] does the first pass and then the homo [31:03] sapiens does the second second pass [31:05] >> fascinating [31:06] >> hana who is like great at it too okay [31:08] >> and um and then you know exactly okay [31:11] this is I need to reply this day this is [31:13] an important customer partner [31:14] >> how does she know what's important like [31:17] I send you an email she must be like [31:19] that's It's so important. You got to [31:21] respond. [laughter] [31:23] How does she know what's important? [31:24] >> Well, the the the first thing is [31:26] sometimes there's of course new where [31:27] you don't, but usually she knows me [31:29] inside out. And the second thing is for [31:30] a lot of the people, a lot of the [31:32] clients, you Brian, you will be in my [31:34] contact list, you will have a P 0 [31:36] inbound. So the first moment you hit me [31:38] with the email, it will autocl classify [31:40] that as a P 0. Um, so I know that it's [31:42] at the top and uh and that I should [31:44] reply on the on the same day. [31:46] >> Okay. Um, so that has worked [31:47] tremendously across across email. I get [31:50] I think I'm I'm very good on like [31:52] getting up um the Slack must be a [31:55] firestorm. [31:55] >> Slack is a firestorm. Slack is a [31:57] firestorm. Um, so it's usually a [32:00] combination. If I think it's taking more [32:02] than five minutes, then I will remind [32:04] myself later. So I'm big on the remind [32:06] function. [32:07] >> And then if it's less than five minutes, [32:09] I usually try to to reply straight away. [32:11] >> Yeah. Kind of inbox zero on your Slack. [32:13] >> Inbox zero on the Slack. [32:14] >> Okay. What about your calendar? [32:17] >> Calendar is uh at least week in advance [32:21] clean in terms of like what I want to do [32:23] and then if there's like an urgent thing [32:25] that comes up then it things get [32:26] reshuffled. [32:27] >> Yeah. [32:28] >> Um and then as I think the biggest piece [32:31] that I've done over the last six months [32:32] and you mentioned the conferences, the [32:34] events is planning at least a quarter [32:36] ahead which uh which continents I will [32:39] be in and I'm trying to never be [32:42] switching the continent in a in the same [32:44] month. So like I with 10 a month I'm [32:45] trying to stay in one place. [32:47] >> Oh, so you go to the US for a month. [32:49] >> I usually try to be in the US for close [32:51] to a month. [32:52] >> I see. [32:52] >> And that helps a lot with getting on the [32:55] ground working with the team but also [32:56] working with the customers. I think it's [32:58] going to decrease to two weeks now given [33:00] how how distributed we are. But uh but [33:03] before that I used to go for like few [33:05] days sometimes to us and that has that [33:09] has been not not ideal. Yeah. Before [33:12] >> Okay. Your calendar must be nuts. Um, [33:16] what does it look like and where do you [33:18] build in time to like actually think? [33:22] >> It's a good question. Um, [33:26] I kind of I think I think best by [33:28] talking with together with someone else. [33:30] >> Okay. [33:31] >> Um, so it it naturally like happens. I [33:34] see [33:34] >> maybe late in the office or something [33:36] with grabbing oneonone time. [33:38] >> Um, yeah. I I think I'm like I'm still [33:41] in this like firestorm and I I'm going [33:45] set on innovating on what works best. [33:47] Like there's a certain type of [33:50] creativity that you also only get like [33:52] when you're bored or like you get some [33:54] downtime and uh I don't I think there's [33:57] some way to program myself with the like [33:59] this environment to get more of that. [34:02] >> I did a Wednesday every Wednesday I work [34:04] from home [34:04] >> and no meeting it was no meeting [34:06] Wednesday. That helped. I'm also a [34:08] little introverted so I needed a little [34:10] time to re charge. Are you guys [34:11] introverted or extroverted? [34:13] >> Are you introverted? [34:14] >> Um I say that but people around me are [34:16] like no no you're fake introverts. [34:18] >> Yeah. [laughter] [34:19] >> Yeah. [34:19] >> But I I mean if I if I'm alone a full [34:21] day I'm like oh god people human coming. [34:24] >> I'm not like that. I'm like oh I need [34:25] another alone day. Um okay interesting. [34:29] >> The no meetings day helps. We I I also [34:32] have no meetings day. it usually gets [34:34] meetings, but they are meetings I [34:35] actually want to do rather than like are [34:38] um like kind of proactive for the future [34:40] rather than like in the moment in this [34:42] given week. So, [34:42] >> one of the things that really helped me [34:44] was like once a month I made a to-do [34:45] list of like here's the eight things I [34:47] want to get done and I would publish [34:50] that on our we had a wiki at the time [34:52] and so everyone in the company to see [34:54] what I was working on and I would look [34:56] at it every couple days and be like does [34:58] my calendar match my to-do list because [35:00] all the Slacks and emails are everybody [35:02] else's priorities imposed on you and by [35:05] putting it on there it sort of allowed [35:08] me to say no. Um, it's just so much [35:12] stuff and it was hard to say no. And so [35:15] it gave me license to say, you know, [35:17] it's not on my to-do list. I'm not going [35:18] to do it. And then I got a hat with a [35:21] big no on it, a no hat, and I walk [35:23] around the office uh and people call me [35:25] Dr. No. Because I just wanted to keep it [35:27] focused on a couple things that I was [35:29] trying to get done and the company was [35:30] trying to get done and I would lose [35:32] focus and then it' be a firestorm and [35:34] then back. So I didn't nail it, but that [35:36] was a small hack that helped a little. [35:39] Okay, you two um are [35:42] do an amazing job building amazing [35:43] companies in Europe. My two favorite [35:45] entrepreneurs. Um [35:48] what's it like building an amazing AI [35:50] company in Europe? Um [35:53] and what are the pluses and minuses of [35:56] building in Europe? [35:57] >> I I think um the network around you is [36:02] not as mature compared to especially [36:04] Silicon Valley. [36:05] >> Yeah. And that makes it more difficult [36:08] with the distribution. Um I mean in like [36:13] sophisticated investors [36:16] are like just one coffee away can be [36:18] valuable. Uh and then once you're [36:22] staffing especially on like not the high [36:25] slope generalists are distributed across [36:27] the world, right? But as you're stuffing [36:29] with people who have done it and seen it [36:30] before, um it's trickier to find it in [36:34] Europe, I would say. But [36:37] >> I heard you refer to building in Europe [36:39] as hard mode. [36:40] >> I mean that those parts are hard mode. [36:41] But at the same time, I I think [36:44] >> uh I don't know, maybe we would have [36:46] been more successful building from from [36:48] the valley or something. I could have [36:49] see that. But I think it has been very [36:52] helpful for us to be like the go-to [36:55] number one talent destination in [36:57] Stockholm. [36:58] >> Uh and that's the reason I decided no, [37:00] we're going to stay here. We're going to [37:02] stay here and bet on on the that there's [37:04] much more available talent that doesn't [37:06] jump around and like they aren't [37:08] entitled and spoiled and they they're [37:12] cheaper. They're they're yearning for um [37:14] like a possibility to literally change [37:17] the world. [37:18] >> Yeah. And um there's not many companies [37:21] that have done it from Europe. There has [37:23] not not been a trillion dollar company [37:24] from Europe. And uh being at 11 Labs or [37:27] building at lovable is one of those [37:29] opport very very rare opportunities [37:30] here. [37:31] >> I agree with that. I'm going to ask you [37:32] this. You've got employees in the US and [37:34] Europe. [37:36] Any difference? [37:39] >> Definitely differences. And similar I I [37:41] I will quickly add that I think the [37:43] talent in Europe can be incredible. [37:45] Okay. [37:45] >> You just need to you need to find you [37:47] need to find that talent. [37:48] >> Um [37:48] >> and we're you're building in London [37:50] mostly or all over? [37:51] >> Uh all over, but London and Poland are [37:53] our biggest hubs. And [37:55] >> Poland must be terrific. [37:56] >> Poland is is incredible. Like some of [37:58] the best central Eastern Europe like [37:59] some of [38:00] >> everybody must want to work for you in [38:01] Poland. It's like it's like Anton Stock. [38:02] >> We are we are heavily building the brand [38:04] across across Eastern Europe and and we [38:06] we think those engineers are just so [38:07] incredible. They are yearning for [38:09] something. I think they're yearning for [38:10] a company that actually wants to build [38:12] something generational, something big. [38:14] And there's just so few of those [38:15] opportunities. At the same time, the [38:17] companies of Silicon Valley frequently [38:18] don't give that opportunity. So it's [38:20] like perfect [38:21] >> to build new stuff. They give like [38:23] >> exactly [38:23] >> it stuff. [38:24] >> Uh and on so I think one of the [38:26] differences which is on a lot of [38:29] Europeans especially Eastern Europe is [38:31] are very straightforward, straight to [38:32] the point, very direct sometimes [38:35] >> uh sometimes too direct which we [38:37] actually really enjoy as a company. it [38:39] helped to share a lot of ideas, [38:41] criticism, feedback in a in a much [38:43] better way. Um, on the other hand, what [38:46] I think US is going for them is that [38:47] confidence of like things are going to [38:50] be amazing, are great, are very [38:51] ambitious across the entirety of of of [38:54] the people. And that's something that uh [38:56] that we are continuously trying to [38:58] instill in some of the people across [39:00] across Europe. [39:00] >> Okay. too. Um, and maybe the other thing [39:02] that helps across Europe is that if [39:04] you're building in Europe, um, you of [39:06] course need to build for for the global [39:08] market. You cannot build just for [39:09] European market. [39:10] >> But then when you do that, then you the [39:12] time zone is actually perfect for [39:14] catering to US to to to [39:17] South America to Europe and to Asia as [39:19] well, which helped in our case as well. [39:21] >> And the difference between American [39:23] employees and European [39:25] >> it would be that I think the the main [39:26] one is also beyond being direct and [39:29] confident. I think the um [39:31] entrepreneurship kind of aspiration is [39:34] very different in US. Everybody knows [39:36] value of equity. Everybody is treating [39:38] that as part of like a good career. In [39:41] Europe, you kind of need to convince the [39:42] employees. Sometimes you need to [39:43] convince the families that this is the [39:45] right thing. [39:45] >> Uh in Poland, we need to uh frequently [39:48] explain that equity is worth something. [39:51] Almost force the employees to take the [39:52] equity, which which is always an [39:55] interesting surprise of like how does it [39:57] work? Um but now we've went through this [39:59] cycle a few times. Um and the equity is [40:02] worth something with the tender offers. [40:03] So people started educating other people [40:05] that this is actually the right choice [40:08] uh which we hope will like in places [40:10] like Poland and wider Europe will become [40:12] more more normalized and and then [40:14] something that people will will want to [40:16] do across entrepreneurship. [40:17] >> When I was in my late 20s I spent in [40:21] early 30s seven years in Asia and I [40:24] worked for this company PTC a very good [40:26] company in the US. [40:28] And I had to convince Japanese people [40:30] and Chinese people and Korean people [40:31] that this thing called equity is going [40:33] to be worth a lot. And man, it was a dog [40:35] fight convincing them like what this is [40:37] you're just trying to pay me less money. [40:39] Um I remember those days. Um and people [40:42] made a lot of money on that stock. [40:45] Okay. On this topic like 996 are you [40:49] guys in office 996 hardcore? Like one [40:53] interesting thing like my generation of [40:55] CEOs, we kind of followed it. Steve Jobs [40:58] was sort of on our Mount Rushmore and [41:01] the current generation's it feels like [41:03] it's a lot more Elon and and companies [41:05] are working much more like Elon's [41:07] companies. Who's your Mount Rushmore? [41:09] Are you 996 like Elon Plus? Like where [41:13] where are you guys at? [41:14] >> Steve Jobs is great. Yeah. [41:15] >> Yeah. I think it's a good one. [41:16] [laughter] I mean, what I like about him [41:18] is he really understands that like a [41:20] team working better and better and [41:22] better over time and like really [41:24] obsessing and caring about what you're [41:26] doing is what [41:26] >> Who are you talking about? [41:27] >> Steve Jobs. Yes. [41:29] >> But who who if I'm Steve Jobs, who are [41:31] you Elon? Who's your [41:33] >> um I mean my style can be a bit Elon [41:36] like this has to get done now. Like what [41:39] what does it take to do this faster? [41:40] What [41:40] >> is it Daniel? [41:42] >> No, I don't know him that well [41:43] unfortunately how he operated. But uh uh [41:46] so based on reading about Elon um I have [41:49] a bit of that but I think you lose a lot [41:51] of the like the autonomy and teams [41:54] feeling ownership of doing doing it too [41:57] much the Elon way. So uh I I might get [42:01] back to you on with a with a more care. [42:03] >> Are you 996 plus? [42:05] >> Um me many people are in the company are [42:07] 996 plus many people in the company but [42:10] um people have family as families as [42:12] well. So it's just we have very very [42:15] very high expectations of everyone to [42:17] have to drive impact. [42:19] >> Um and then if you're not working many [42:22] hours you need to have clearly [42:26] [laughter] clearly have impact in other [42:27] ways. You think that scales like one of [42:29] the problems with scale is that drive [42:32] sort of waines and that you know do you [42:35] think that fades and is there ideas in [42:37] your head how you keep that that [42:40] motivation going? [42:42] >> Um [42:44] I I think it's about setting very very [42:46] ambitious goals every week and um [42:49] >> that's one of your things every week you [42:51] put out goals. [42:52] >> Yeah. And then it's it's very being very [42:55] clear before someone joins on what the [42:57] expectations are [42:58] >> and um it's about [43:02] evaluating impact [43:03] >> and have you lost candidates like VP [43:06] candidates because like you know what [43:08] yeah I love the mission I love you but I [43:12] can only do 50 hours a week and I got a [43:15] I've got a I've got a life I've got four [43:17] kids. I I lost I think we lost some kind [43:20] of like that but that's maybe good. [43:22] >> Life in the big city. Okay. How how [43:25] who's your Mount Rushmore? [43:28] >> It's definitely closer to Steve Jobs [43:30] between those two. Um uh but it's it's [43:33] his he was always like so caring about [43:34] the design about making it kind of [43:38] hiding complexity from the user making [43:40] it easy to use. Um, uh, he does he does [43:43] have this obsessive piece which is maybe [43:45] a slightly different to how I would try [43:47] to to run it or or or work in a company. [43:50] Uh, but I love what he created as as as [43:52] his legacy. But there are amazing other [43:54] CEOs there. You know, there's like more [43:56] more pockets from different people that [43:58] that that are incredible. I like Jamie [44:00] Diamond and how his clarity and and his [44:03] like across so many things that he runs [44:06] and he I think he has like half a [44:07] million people under him. He feels very [44:09] calm and under control. I think this is [44:11] admirable. Um, Satya, I think the way he [44:15] kind of turned it around and he is like [44:17] a very caring person around around uh [44:19] how he runs the company. I think this [44:21] this is this is another great great [44:24] leader. Um, [44:26] but from the 996 I think in our case, [44:29] >> are you guys 996? [44:31] >> Not in the office. I think everybody is [44:33] online chronically and all the time. We [44:36] definitely make it very explicit before [44:37] you you join. It's we find it's like [44:40] once in a in a lifetime change with AI [44:43] across the world we can be the voice of [44:45] the change the voice of the technology [44:46] and everybody understands the [44:48] opportunity ahead is is rare um [44:50] >> and we do lose candidates across but [44:52] then you filter we do frequently I mean [44:55] they frequently won't I think even apply [44:57] we are like very vocal in the process [44:59] that that that it's it's it's a it's a [45:01] lot of time commitment we never impose [45:03] it or ask anyone for doing that but they [45:06] do Um it's it's usually seven days a [45:10] week but you are not maybe working all [45:12] the seven days a week but you are online [45:14] and ready to jump in especially on the [45:16] weekends on any on any questions and um [45:20] and I think people people enjoy working [45:23] next to passionate people so you kind of [45:25] like get that bar higher you run [45:28] together and then when you see results [45:29] it's it's also motivating [45:30] >> in like the last 50 employees like your [45:33] from employee 250 to 500 versus 50 to [45:36] 100 is Is there a difference in your [45:38] mind in commitment and zeal and [45:42] whatever? [45:43] >> You know it's definitely some but but [45:45] the current employees are also okay on [45:47] it like and I think the small teams [45:49] helped where you you have like you know [45:51] you effectively join that [45:53] >> unit of 10 people or less. [45:55] >> So you are seeing that everybody's [45:57] running in that unit and everybody else [45:59] is running too. So you you are going [46:01] after after that too. Um, of course we [46:04] also have people with families, people [46:06] that will have other other things and [46:07] and that can work and uh and and and it [46:10] does, but usually those people are are [46:12] thinking about work and how to improve [46:15] um at all times. [46:16] >> What do you guys think European like [46:18] what needs to happen in Europe to [46:20] [applause] to have like a lot more of [46:23] you guys? [46:25] >> I think they're coming. Yeah, it truly [46:27] is 100%. Okay. There there is like [46:29] engineering schools now you ask them [46:31] would you consider starting a startup or [46:33] being in part of the funding team 80% [46:36] yes [46:36] >> okay [46:37] >> it went up to 10x [46:40] okay interesting [46:40] >> and that first generation will help I [46:42] think like few of the companies if we if [46:44] we do do a good job get get some people [46:47] to to start another set of companies I [46:49] think the second thing of what's I think [46:51] missing in the European ecosystem is [46:53] people that have done it before have [46:54] seen that scale um that and then of is [46:58] have got a good outcome to then make [47:00] make clear of like this is actually a [47:01] really cool thing to do. Uh hopefully [47:03] those people can infuse additional set [47:05] of startups across across Europe. [47:07] >> We started um HubSpot in Boston and it's [47:12] got a lot of the same benefits Europe [47:13] like so much talent MIT's there just we [47:16] were a magnet for it. the the area it [47:19] fell down is as we scaled and we need to [47:21] hire you know a head of marketing who [47:23] had seen the movie before someone who [47:25] had really operated at scale so we [47:28] started hiring more people in the valley [47:30] um that started happen around a thousand [47:32] employees um [47:33] >> but it feels similar Boston feels [47:35] similar to Europe in that way Boston's [47:37] conservative it's kind of similar um any [47:41] advice for all there's lots of young [47:43] smart entrepreneurs listen to this pod [47:46] uh that want to build the next levelable [47:48] the next 11 labs. Any any any advice? [47:51] >> First of all, I think go for it. It's [47:53] it's amazing to to to build a company [47:56] and you know, of course, um maybe I was [47:58] in a in a lucky position where where I [48:01] had savings and I could I didn't have [48:02] like the the dependencies, but if you [48:04] are in that similar situation, uh I [48:06] think it's it's go for it. the learning [48:08] experience you get uh across building a [48:11] company even if it doesn't go the way [48:13] what you expect I think is so much more [48:15] valuable than uh than frequently joining [48:17] joining other companies and being a [48:18] smaller cogle in a big machine um and [48:21] then I think obsess about the problem [48:23] try to deeply understand what you are [48:24] actually solving for talk with customers [48:26] and the the simplest advice I think is [48:28] the most valuable here which is actually [48:30] working with the user and iterating very [48:32] very deeply um and then I think it's all [48:35] about the team and hiring so the people [48:36] you bring across [48:38] and who you build with will be will be [48:40] defining for the company. So pick your [48:42] co-founders carefully and well and know [48:45] them ideally for a longer time before [48:47] you decide to start something. And as [48:49] you assemble the team, you really want [48:50] the trusted individuals that [48:52] >> uh that you want to go for the for the [48:54] next decades together. [48:55] >> Yeah. [48:57] >> I think you want to learn things very [48:59] very fast if you're getting started and [49:03] um you want to learn a lot of things. [49:04] You want to learn how to hire. Um I mean [49:07] you don't have to be so good at managing [49:08] but having high expectations of people [49:10] and giving them clear feedback [49:12] [clears throat] [49:12] >> and you want to know learn how to sell. [49:15] you want to sell to your customers or [49:17] sell them or and market um to your the [49:21] people you want to hire and if you want [49:23] investors you're always selling and so [49:25] you should do that all the time and fail [49:27] and uh ask someone who you respect to [49:30] >> give it to you hard on like how bad you [49:32] are because if you're just getting [49:34] started [49:34] >> first [49:35] >> yeah of course [laughter] [49:37] >> okay [49:38] >> next person and just go out there and [49:42] like try to find joy probably by having [49:46] a co-founder as you're talking about in [49:47] the in the failings and the learnings. [49:49] >> Yes. [49:49] >> Yeah. That's the other thing which uh I [49:51] was thinking about your earlier question [49:53] what you don't expect as a CEO as well. [49:55] Um you don't expect that uh that you [49:57] don't have anyone to complain to [49:58] effectively, [49:59] >> right? [laughter] [50:00] >> So so your co-founder is your like [50:02] soulmate that you can speak through and [50:04] then there are some sometimes amazing [50:05] people in the team you can iterate [50:07] through but not to the same not to the [50:09] same. [50:09] >> Yes, I totally totally agree with that. [50:12] Um I want to congratulate you guys on [50:14] all your success. I admire what you guys [50:15] are doing. I sure hope you guys build [50:18] trillion dollar companies in Europe. [50:20] That'd be amazing. Good luck to you. [50:21] Thanks for doing the pod. [50:23] >> Thank you so much. [50:23] >> Thank you. [50:24] >> Appreciate you. [50:25] >> Thank you. [50:25] >> Yeah. [50:26] >> Okay. Those two are terrific and it's [50:28] nice to see them kind of blossoming [50:31] before our eyes. What they have in [50:33] common is they both had like seven or [50:35] eight years of experience with like one [50:38] good company in there. And I know it's [50:40] fashionable to drop out of Harvard and [50:42] start a company like Zuck did, but at [50:44] least for me, [50:47] I did two startups before HubSpot. One [50:50] was very successful, went public, and [50:52] got very large. Man, did I learn a lot [50:54] from that. And man, are there a lot of [50:56] lessons inside of HubSpot about scaling, [50:58] but you do you. But I don't think it [51:00] hurts a founder to be in a really good [51:02] startup to learn before they start a [51:04] company. They talked a lot about their [51:06] co-founders [51:08] and one of the things about being a CEO [51:10] is you're just you're you're a [ __ ] [51:12] umbrella. Like all the [ __ ] rains on you [51:15] and you get an umbrella for your whole [51:16] organization. It's hard. The other thing [51:19] about being a CEO is like no one is [51:22] coming to save you. In my startups, my [51:24] boss would come and save me. Another [51:26] team would come and save me. There was a [51:28] lot of resources around. You're pretty [51:30] alone and it's on you as a founder. The [51:33] one person you can complain to is your [51:35] co-founder. And so my advice to to you [51:38] would be to really get to know your [51:40] co-founder because it's an incredibly [51:42] important relationship for you going [51:44] forward. We got into mechanics of of the [51:46] job and we talked about delegation and [51:49] they're kind of starting to it's [51:51] interesting. They're starting to [51:52] delegate. They're like, "Oh, we're kind [51:55] of founder mode. We're not sure how to [51:56] do this." But they're starting to do it. [51:57] It's impressive to see what they're [51:58] doing. my experience the way that worked [52:01] as HubSpot scaled. I was very founder [52:05] mode in sales and in product and man the [52:08] rest of the organization I was very [52:10] manager mode and I drove both [52:12] constituencies crazy. The the sales and [52:15] product folks I was in their shorts and [52:17] they always complained I was too much in [52:19] the details. All the rest of them [52:21] complained that they didn't respond to [52:22] their emails. So that was sort of the [52:23] blend for me. I wasn't all manager mode. [52:25] It wasn't all founder mode and that kind [52:28] of worked for me and m maybe that would [52:29] work for you running your company. I [52:31] like the way they were thinking about [52:32] their teams. I asked all the CEOs on [52:35] these uh episodes know what's their span [52:38] of control and it's all over the map. I [52:41] by the way I thought everyone was [52:42] copying um Jason Huang and having 60 [52:45] direct reports. That is definitely not [52:47] true. He is an N of one on that. And [52:51] like Anton Helmley has five direct [52:53] reports. I had 10, my tea has 15. So, [52:56] it's a little bit all over the map. If I [52:59] were you, I would think about that. What [53:01] do you want your span of control to be? [53:03] And I would have it as wide as you can [53:05] tolerate. As you scale from 100 to a,000 [53:07] employees, all those layers in there [53:09] really will slow you down. So, you want [53:10] to keep it as flat as you can. The other [53:13] thing I liked about that we're thinking [53:14] about Teams is they were definitely [53:16] starting to bring in some been there, [53:18] done that people. The whole team wasn't [53:20] been there, done that. The way HubSpot [53:22] ended up is we had about half been there [53:25] done that and half homegrown and VCs try [53:27] to jam you full of been there done that. [53:29] I like that balance having a little bit [53:31] of both. The homegrown talent is [53:33] underrated on your teams most likely. We [53:35] also talked about just managing the [53:37] chaos like they're growing crazy. They [53:39] have so much opportunity. Um it's just a [53:42] hurricane of of input coming into them. [53:45] And a couple things, couple hacks I [53:48] liked. Anton is really good on Twitter [53:50] by the way. If you don't follow him, [53:52] he's really good. I like that every [53:54] Monday morning he has a 15minute meeting [53:56] with a couple of his staff members and [53:57] they brainstorm on tweets. So, he's not [53:59] just coming up with that [54:00] extemporaneously. He's thought about it [54:02] a little bit and he's very good at it. [54:04] Most of them, or at least I had a no [54:06] meaning day where I could actually think [54:08] and get some room and work on projects. [54:09] I think that's a good hack. I had it on [54:11] Fridays for a while. Everyone thought I [54:13] was taking a long weekend. I moved it to [54:14] Wednesdays. And they're going to have to [54:18] get good at saying no. Like I I was [54:20] working on saying no. So I made myself [54:23] this hat, my no hat, and I had a no [54:25] shirt, too. And I think startups are [54:28] much much more likely to die of [54:30] overeating and starvation. That's [54:32] probably true of yours. You might need [54:34] your own no hat. You know, speaking of [54:37] chaos, [54:38] I asked them, are they 996? And they are [54:40] both 996 plus. Um, and I think that's [54:45] interesting. I've asked all the CEOs [54:47] I've been interviewing. and it's been 10 [54:49] so far and the early stage startups are [54:51] all doing 996 and the bigger ones aren't [54:53] and I think that's probably life in the [54:55] fast lane as your employees start having [54:58] families and you're hiring people with [55:00] families it's just hard to get people in [55:02] the office six days a week working 9 to9 [55:04] but I think keep it going as long as you [55:06] can if you're doing 996 I think it's [55:08] good I was 996 but I didn't ask my team [55:11] to be 996 uh we talked a lot about [55:14] Europe these are two amazing companies [55:16] in Europe and Europe's So, we started in [55:19] Boston. And Boston's a little bit out [55:20] like Europe. You're like outside the [55:22] echo chamber of um Silicon Valley. And [55:27] there's some real pluses and minuses to [55:29] being outside of the valley. The pluses [55:31] are you end up being a very large fish [55:34] in a very small pond, which can help. [55:37] And you have really good access to [55:40] talent and not a lot of competition for [55:42] that talent. So, real pluses. Um, the [55:46] minuses we found out at HubSpot and [55:48] they're going to find out is inside of [55:50] Boston there's just not a lot of scale [55:52] tech companies. So, we had a hard time [55:54] finding executives who had seen that [55:56] movie on that next level of scale. Like [55:58] we took a couple people from Akami and [56:00] that worked out, but it was pretty lean [56:02] and so we started hiring execs out in [56:04] San Francisco. So, real pluses and [56:06] minuses to being in a big city. If I had [56:09] to do HubSpot over again, by the way, [56:11] you didn't ask, but uh I would have we [56:14] were in Boston, I'd have a big office in [56:16] Boston, big office in San Francisco, [56:18] then another big office in, I don't [56:20] know, Nashville or Denver or Toronto [56:22] would be pretty good where you can hire [56:25] lots and lots of people for less money [56:26] and have them be a little bit more loyal [56:29] than, let's say, in your San Francisco [56:30] office. I wouldn't let everybody work [56:31] from home. I'd have [music] three big [56:33] hubs. Okay, we wound up obviously [56:35] talking about Europe. They're both in [56:36] Europe. Really encouraging for Europe. [56:38] world could use more Silicon Valleys and [56:40] the world could use, you know, a vibrant [56:43] European entrepreneurial scene. [music] [56:45] I love to hear from them that the [56:47] engineering schools are chock full of [56:49] kids that want to start companies. I [56:51] think that's going to be good for the [56:52] world and good for [music] Europe. So, [56:53] I'm excited about that. I hope you [56:55] enjoyed the episode. I really liked it. [56:57] These two are great. I will see you on [56:59] the next episode of Long Strange Trip. [57:09] >> [music]