Huberman Prescribes Early Light, Timing Rules to Fix Health Protocols

Huberman建议通过早间光照与时间法则优化健康方案 过度优化健康日常可能引发心理倦怠，因此人们需要优先关注基础习惯，例如早间日光照射、策略性睡眠提示以及针对性补充剂。 在这期单人问答节目中，Andrew Huberman解答了听众就各类健康与科学话题提交的实时音频提问。他概述了如何在深夜锻炼时利用Alpha-GPC、生理性叹气以及光照机制等工具来调节皮质醇水平并提高专注力。讨论内容还涵盖了优化记忆力和嗅觉恢复，通过低炎饮食及CoQ10、L-Carnitine等补充剂来支持男性与女性的生育能力，以及应对围绝经期的心理健康。最后，Huberman分享了关于术前健康方案的实用建议，以及如何通过结构化习惯和掌握基础技能来发掘个人的职业热情。 晚间力量训练会自然升高皮质醇，但可以通过使用Alpha-GPC在不干扰睡眠的情况下提高专注力，它是通过乙酰胆碱途径而非儿茶酚胺能刺激来发挥作用的。 (1:42) 为抵消大剂量使用Alpha-GPC带来的氧化三甲胺（TMAO）水平升高并减轻潜在心血管风险，建议服用含有大蒜素的600毫克大蒜提取物。 (1:42) 在较短窗口期内的运动后恢复与入睡，可以通过冲热水澡以降低核心体温、采用双吸气生理性叹气以激活迷走神经，以及摄入慢消化蛋白质来加速。 (1:42) 早晨接收室外环境日光——即使面朝西方——也能触发视网膜中表达黑视素的内源光敏性神经节细胞，从而设定主昼夜节律并在早期促使促唤醒激素上升。 (16:12) 视交叉上核（SCN）作为一个缓慢的整合机制运作，会对两到三天的光照暴露取平均值，这意味着偶尔错过早间光照并不会立刻破坏昼夜节律。 (20:31)

In a solo Q&A session, Andrew Huberman argues that health and performance depend on foundational physiological principles—such as circadian light exposure, autonomic regulation, and cellular energetics—which must be adapted flexibly to personal circumstances rather than pursued through rigid, stressful optimization. Late-Day Training, Arousal, and Sleep Transitions (1:42) Moderate-to-high intensity resistance training naturally elevates cortisol, an essential stimulus for muscular adaptation. For late-evening workouts, Huberman notes that the goal is not to suppress this spike during training, but to bring autonomic arousal down quickly before bed. To boost focus without catecholaminergic stimulants like caffeine that fragment sleep architecture, he suggests Alpha-GPC (600–900 mg), which operates via acetylcholine pathways and can preserve or modestly increase REM sleep. However, because chronic choline supplementation elevates trimethylamine N-oxide (TMAO)—a gut microbe-derived compound linked to cardiovascular risks—Huberman advises pairing Alpha-GPC with 600 mg of garlic extract (allicin) and limiting use to 1–3 times weekly. To accelerate sleep onset within a short post-workout window, Huberman outlines three evidence-based interventions: taking a hot shower to trigger medial preoptic hypothalamic neurons to dump core body temperature, performing 3–4 physiological sighs (double-inhales followed by extended exhales) to engage the vagal efferent motor pathway, and consuming slower-digesting proteins like casein or Greek yogurt alongside starches to stabilize overnight blood glucose without undermining growth hormone. Circadian Dynamics and Protocol Over-Optimization (16:12) Early outdoor light exposure remains the primary zeitgeber for human physiology. Photons captured by intrinsically photosensitive melanopsin retinal ganglion cells signal the suprachiasmatic nucleus (SCN) to drive a morning surge of cortisol, dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine. Because these stimulatory neurochemicals operate in opposite phase to melatonin, an early morning spike facilitates nighttime melatonin release. Huberman clarifies that the SCN integrates photon exposure over 2–3 days, meaning an overcast morning or a single missed day will not derail circadian rhythms. Sunglasses and brimmed hats should be removed outdoors, though prescription eyeglasses and contacts are fine. Addressing listener concerns about longevity-culture stress, Huberman cautions against hyper-strict adherence to protocols. Over-optimization leads to protocol overwhelm and long-term burnout. Sustainable health relies on core fundamentals—quality sleep, daylight, hydration, exercise, nutrition, and social connection—adapted flexibly to personal constraints like family care, travel, or work deadlines. Non-water fluids such as coffee and yerba mate count toward hydration, and moderate social drinking is an individual adult choice that should not cause guilt or resentment. Neuroplasticity, Active Retrieval, and Sensory Tuning (34:48) Neuroplasticity and memory consolidation depend on deliberate effort and error signals. Exercise primes learning across a subsequent 1–6 hour window by elevating arousal via catecholamines (dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine), BDNF, and IGF-1. However, structural rewiring requires an error signal mediated by the cerebellum when attempting tasks at the limit of current ability. True circuit remodeling occurs later during slow-wave and REM sleep. Huberman stresses that passive re-reading or highlighting is ineffective compared to self-testing, where navigating cognitive friction reinforces neocortical retrieval circuits. A similar activity-dependent mechanism governs the olfactory system. Olfactory sensory neurons undergo continuous lifelong regeneration in the central nervous system. Following head trauma where olfactory axons shear at the cribriform plate, dedicated sniff training using non-noxious odors (such as rose, lemon, or coffee) stimulates activity-dependent neuronal renewal. Drawing on research by Dr. Noam Sobel, Huberman notes that humans can approach canine olfactory sensitivity by utilizing active, deeper, and more frequent sniffs. Metabolic and Cellular Drivers of Fertility (53:11) Reproductive health in both sexes requires balancing caloric intake and minimizing systemic inflammation. As highlighted by Dr. Kyle Gillette, men with body fat over 20% improve free testosterone and fertility markers by entering a caloric deficit, whereas lean men (around 15% body fat or less) risk suppressing testosterone if they maintain a deficit exceeding 500 calories per day for weeks. Huberman warns that exogenous testosterone—even micro-dosed below 100 mg weekly—severely suppresses natural spermatogenesis via negative feedback, an effect not guaranteed to be fully countered by human chorionic gonadotropin (hCG) at 500 IU three times weekly. For female fertility, specialists Dr. Natalie Crawford and Dr. Tais Aliabadi emphasize low systemic inflammation. Citing Stanford research by Justin Sonnenberg and Christopher Gardner, Huberman notes that consuming roughly four daily servings of refrigerated, low-sugar fermented foods (such as kimchi, sauerkraut, or plain yogurt) reliably reduces inflammatory markers. At the cellular level, early embryo development and sperm motility depend heavily on mitochondrial energy production. Consequently, CoQ10 and L-Carnitine (500–750 mg daily orally) consistently emerge as evidence-backed supplements across clinical fertility protocols. Hormonal Transitions, Recovery, and Skill Mastery (69:46) Steroid hormone shifts during perimenopause dynamically alter neural circuits in the hypothalamus governing the HPA axis, body temperature, and sleep. Huberman highlights that early studies warning against Hormone Replacement Therapy (HRT) were flawed; when initiated early under medical supervision, HRT provides substantial biological and psychological relief against perimenopausal anxiety. In surgical contexts, prehabilitation through Zone 2 cardio, resistance training, and HIIT accelerates recovery, while prior neuromuscular adaptations ensure strength rebounds rapidly via muscle memory. Addressing life trajectory and career development, Huberman cites Joe Strummer’s law ('no input, no output') to urge active exploration while maintaining daily structure and baseline health. To discover meaningful work, individuals should heed internal intuitive pulls while avoiding drama and numbing behaviors. When entering any new discipline, Huberman advises embracing the unglamorous 'chop wood, carry water' phase—mastering fundamental operational mechanics before trying to impose a personal, creative spin. Huberman emphasizes that health protocols are tools to serve human life rather than rigid mandates. While cellular biology, circadian rhythms, and endocrine feedback loops operate by strict physiological rules, their practical application requires individual agency, patient self-advocacy, and consistency over perfection.

Andrew Huberman 在本期问答节目中指出，科学健康方案的核心在于理解神经与生理机制并建立灵活的长期一致性，而非陷入僵化的“过度优化”；通过光照节律、神经兴奋下调、主动记忆自测与代谢抗炎管理，个体可以在真实生活约束下实现身心机能的可持续提升。 晚间训练管理与自主神经快速下调 (1:42) 对于因工作日程限制必须在深夜训练的人群，Huberman 解释称力量训练必然导致皮质醇激增，这虽是肌肉与力量适应的生理前提，但关键在于训前专注力供给与训后快速下调自主神经兴奋。在训前，他建议使用 600 至 900 毫克 Alpha-GPC 代替刺激交感神经的经典咖啡因补剂。Alpha-GPC 经由乙酰胆碱通路提高专注力，且不会扰乱对神经重塑和情绪脱敏至关重要的快速眼动（REM）睡眠。然而，高频摄入胆碱会经肠道微生物代谢增加三甲胺-N-氧化物（TMAO），带来潜在心血管风险。为此，Huberman 建议每次使用 Alpha-GPC 时搭配 600 毫克大蒜提取物（含大蒜素）以抑制 TMAO 产生，并将使用频率限制在每周一至三次。 在训练结束后距离入睡仅 90 分钟的窗口内，需启动三步降温与副交感神经激活程序：首先冲热水澡，通过加热皮肤表面激活下丘脑内侧视前区神经元，促使身体核心温度下降；其次执行三到四次“生理性叹息”（深吸两次后缓慢长呼气），通过迷走神经传出通路快速减慢心率并降低交感神经兴奋；最后在营养方面，避免睡前完全空腹导致夜间惊醒，建议摄入慢消化的酪蛋白或希腊酸奶搭配燕麦等复合淀粉，在稳定血糖和补充糖原的同时保护夜间生长激素释放。 昼夜节律的光生物学整合与睡眠调控 (16:12) 清晨自然光是人体最主要的时间授时因子。醒来一小时内捕捉自然光，可直接刺激视网膜固有感光黑视素神经节细胞，向视交叉上核（SCN）传递神经信号。这一过程能诱发晨间皮质醇、多巴胺和去甲肾上腺素峰值，激活日间清醒度，并在夜晚与褪黑素形成相位反转，促使夜间褪黑素正常释放。户外采光时不应佩戴太阳镜或有檐帽（近视眼镜和隐形眼镜无碍），即使面对西侧天空或阴天，环境光子通量仍显著高于室内；若在日出前醒来，可使用约 10,000 勒克斯的人工光照板作为替代。 针对错过清晨采光的担忧，Huberman 指出大脑视交叉上核是一个具备“慢整合机制”的光子积分器，能够对过去两到三天的光照能量进行平均计算，因此偶尔一天缺漏并不会立刻摧毁生物钟，次日适当增加户外时间即可弥补。这种生物钟特性同样适用于日常生活场景：人体生理机制承受推迟入睡的能力远强于强行提早觉醒，因此下午或傍晚活动比日出活动更符合多数人的睡眠节律；而在医院等容易破坏昼夜节律的环境中，患者应利用眼罩、耳塞并尽量靠近自然光源，以保护深度睡眠并减少系统性炎症。 破除过度优化焦虑与践行核心健康支柱 (22:54) 针对长寿与养生文化中常见的“协议过载”（protocol overwhelm），Huberman 警告神经质地死守健康规则会引发慢性压力，反而损害身心健康。他将真正的优化定义为根据现实生活约束（如生病照料、育儿、差旅与工作期限）动态调整策略，而非强求执行僵化的打卡清单。健康生活应建立在能够轻松获得能量的核心支柱之上：高质量睡眠、早晨日光、充足水合、规律运动、均衡营养与社会连接。 在实践中，长期的行为一致性远胜于短期的绝对完美。在水分摄入方面，咖啡与马黛茶等饮料同样计入每日液体需求；在运动安排上，每周保持抗阻与有氧结合是理想目标，但在忙碌阶段每周保证两到三次高质量锻炼同样有效。Huberman 强调个体应做自己的“生物实验室”，如果某项健康方案引发了强烈的内心阻抗或怨恨，应主动调整心态或彻底舍弃，以维持长期的情绪稳定与自主权。 错误信号驱动学习与感觉神经元重塑 (34:48) 记忆的形成始于双侧海马体，随后逐步分布并巩固于大脑新皮质回路中。Huberman 指出，运动提升记忆的核心机制在于提高机体觉醒水平：身体活动激活交感神经并释放儿茶酚胺及 BDNF、IGF-1 等神经营养因子，在随后的 1 至 6 小时内创造高度聚焦的神经可塑性窗口。然而，仅靠专注并不足以触发结构重塑，学习的根本前提是“犯错”——当个体在高难度任务中出现失误时，小脑传递的错误信号会打破既有神经回路，迫使其重新组织。 真正的结构性神经突触重塑发生在随后的慢波睡眠与 REM 睡眠中。为使记忆持久，被动重读或划重点收效甚微，最有效的方法是主动自测（Self-Testing）；在检索记忆时经历认知摩擦与遗忘边缘的挣扎，是巩固皮质连接的最强信号。此外，中枢神经系统中的嗅觉感觉神经元具备终生再生的特性，面对脑外伤导致的嗅觉丧失（anosmia），通过主动、专注地对柠檬、玫瑰、咖啡等非刺激性气味进行深度嗅吸训练，可以有效调动活动依赖性神经回路再生，促进嗅觉功能恢复。 生殖内分泌平衡与线粒体抗炎策略 (53:11) 能量平衡与体脂比例对两性生殖健康至关重要。对于体脂率超过 20% 的男性，通过适度热量缺口减脂并配合力量训练，能显著改善游离睾酮与精子质量；但对于体脂在 15% 或以下的较瘦男性，若持续维持超过 500 大卡的热量赤字数周，则会严重抑制睾酮生成。Huberman 同时警告，外源性睾酮（即使每周低于 100 毫克）也会通过负反馈机制严重抑制自体精子生成，虽常辅以人绒毛膜促性腺激素（hCG，如每周三次 500 IU）以保护睾丸功能，但效果因人而异。 在营养抗炎方面，斯坦福大学研究表明，每日渐进式摄入约四份冷藏低糖发酵食品（如保加利亚酸奶、无糖酸菜、泡菜等），可显著降低系统性炎症标志物。针对配子质量与早期胚胎发育，辅酶 Q10 与左旋肉碱（口服建议每日 500 至 750 毫克以克服低生物利用度）因直接支持线粒体能量代谢，成为生殖专家普遍推荐的补充剂。对于围绝经期及绝经期女性，激素波动会直接影响下丘脑对应激（HPA 轴）和睡眠的调控并改变基因表达；及早并规范开展的激素替代疗法（HRT）配合低炎症饮食，已被证实能有效缓解围绝经期焦虑。 Huberman 总结指出，理解生物学机制的目的在于帮助个体在现实生活中重掌主导权，而非让健康方案成为新的生活负担。无论是在探索个人热忱时遵循“没有输入就没有输出”（Strummer's Law）并经历扎实的基础打磨阶段，还是面对复杂的激素和节律调节，个体都应建立以核心生活支柱为基石、以自身反馈为导向的弹性系统，在长期一致的实践中实现身心健康的可持续发展。

[20:31] Andrew Huberman: Your suprachiasmatic nucleus... is literally integrating the number of photons that you saw—light energy—in the previous two or three days. [41:48] Andrew Huberman: If your nervous system can carry out something that you're trying to do, there is absolutely no reason for it to change. Period. End of story. You have to make errors through deliberate effort. [64:26] Andrew Huberman: So much of what's happening in conception and the formation of the early embryo is about taking that fertilized egg and creating more cells from it. And that's highly dependent on a number of different factors that mitochondria are critical for. [118:08] Andrew Huberman: Although our circadian rhythm is a really powerful force in our energy levels... most everybody has the ability to stay up later than we would prefer to... but it's very hard for people to get into gear and be wide awake and alert earlier than their normal wake-up time.

[0:00] Welcome to the Huberman Lab podcast, [0:02] where we discuss science and [0:03] science-based tools for everyday life. [0:09] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor [0:11] of neurobiology and opthalmology at [0:13] Stanford School of Medicine. Today's [0:15] episode is a solo episode of the [0:17] podcast, meaning no guest. However, [0:19] there will be a large number of outside [0:22] voices heard on today's episode, and [0:24] that's because I solicited for your [0:26] questions on social media. that is [0:29] people had the opportunity to call in [0:31] and literally record their questions [0:33] about anything related to science and [0:35] health. Well, really anything. But [0:36] today, we're going to focus on science [0:38] and health. And I would answer them in [0:40] real time, meaning I'm hearing them for [0:42] the first time today as you hear them [0:44] for the first time today. And we're [0:46] going to cover, I'm told, because I [0:47] haven't heard the questions yet, a large [0:49] number of topics related to signs and [0:51] health that are relevant to women, to [0:52] men, to people of all ages, and covering [0:55] everything from health and fitness to [0:56] mental health, supplementation, and on [0:59] and on. I should mention that if you [1:00] called in with a question for today's [1:02] episode, and you don't hear it on [1:04] today's episode, that does not [1:05] necessarily mean that it won't be [1:07] included in a future Q&A episode. Again, [1:09] we got many, many more questions than we [1:11] could possibly include in a single [1:12] episode. And I also want to say to [1:14] everyone who called in with a question, [1:16] thank you. We really appreciate the [1:18] feedback even if your question isn't [1:20] included. It does cue us to what people [1:22] are interested in and absolutely will [1:24] shape the future of guest episodes, solo [1:26] episodes, and again perhaps a future Q&A [1:29] of this sort. So without further ado, [1:31] let's get to your questions. Okay, so [1:34] just to remind you, you're going to hear [1:35] the question from the audience member [1:37] played in real time. And again, this is [1:39] the first time that I'm hearing these [1:41] questions. Hello, my name's Anthony [1:44] Richards and I just want to thank you so [1:46] much for all the content that you put [1:48] out. It's helped me profoundly in so [1:50] many aspects of my life. My specific [1:53] question right now is on preworkouts. I [1:56] work out late at night because of work [1:59] and I generally go to bed an hour and a [2:02] half or so after I complete my workout. [2:05] I'm curious as to what's the most [2:07] effective pre-workout I could take to [2:09] maximize my strength training without [2:11] impairing my sleep. Thank you. [2:14] >> Well, first off, Anthony, thank you for [2:16] the kind words. I love to learn. I love [2:18] to teach and I especially love to teach [2:20] information that I hope can be of use to [2:22] people in their health journey. So, in [2:25] keeping with that, you asked, "What is [2:27] the best preworkout for someone who's [2:30] working out late in the day?" And in [2:32] your case, going to sleep about an hour [2:34] and a half after finishing your workout. [2:37] And your workouts, as you mentioned, are [2:38] going to be for strength and presumably [2:41] for some muscle size as well, which [2:43] suggests that they're going to be of [2:44] moderate to high intensity, which means [2:47] that they're going to pretty [2:49] impressively increase cortisol over its [2:51] baseline late in the day. And everyone [2:54] hears that and they think, "Oh my gosh, [2:55] cortisol stress hormone. We don't want [2:56] to do that." Yes and no. It is true that [3:00] we want our cortisol high in the [3:02] morning. You all know the ways to do [3:03] that. You get your morning sunlight, you [3:04] hydrate, you exercise, you maybe drink [3:06] some caffeine. If you like to drink [3:08] caffeine, you get into your day, maybe [3:09] even some stress, that's okay. But if [3:12] you can't work out early in the day, [3:13] what do you do? So, your question about [3:16] pre-workout is really a question of how [3:18] do I get energized enough, enough [3:20] autonomic arousal, enough alertness that [3:22] I can generate the kind of intensity [3:24] that's going to stimulate that cortisol [3:25] peak, right? We don't want to avoid that [3:27] high cortisol level during these [3:29] workouts. That's part of the stimulus [3:30] that's going to induce the adaptations [3:32] that we want. How do we do that? Well, [3:34] you've all heard me say that drinking [3:36] caffeine in the 8 to 10 hours before [3:38] sleep is going to disrupt your sleep, [3:40] even if you can fall asleep after [3:41] caffeine. So to be quite direct, one [3:44] thing and perhaps the only thing that [3:46] I'm aware of that can give you an [3:49] increase in alertness and that will [3:51] allow you more focus and intensity for [3:53] your workout, but that can also help [3:55] your sleep is something that increases [3:58] levels of acetylcholine. And the most [4:01] direct way to do that over the counter [4:03] and the safest way that I'm aware of to [4:05] do that is to use the supplement alpha [4:08] GPC. 600 milligrams to 900 milligrams of [4:11] alpha GPC taken simply with water will [4:15] give you a increase in focus and [4:17] alertness that you can devote to that [4:19] high intensity or moderate in to high [4:21] intensity workout. Alpha GPC is also one [4:24] of the few supplements that I'm aware of [4:27] that can increase the amount of rapid [4:29] eye movement sleep that you get REM [4:31] sleep. And that REM sleep is critical [4:33] for a number of things for inducing [4:35] neuroplasticity. So any learning that [4:37] you did in the preceding day or days is [4:39] going to be consolidated during REM [4:41] sleep. And importantly, REM sleep is [4:44] critical for removing the emotional load [4:47] of previous days, not just one day, but [4:49] days memories. And if we don't get [4:52] enough REM sleep, we tend to feel more [4:54] emotional. We tend to feel like the [4:56] emotional load of stressful things in [4:58] our prior days are not coming off those [5:01] memories. Okay. So, alphagpc has been [5:05] shown to modestly increase REM sleep. [5:08] But the great news here is even if alpha [5:10] GPC doesn't increase the amount of REM [5:12] sleep that you're getting, alpha GPC is [5:14] not going to hinder the amount of REM [5:16] sleep or slowwave deep sleep that you [5:19] get. So, it makes it a unique sort of [5:21] quote unquote stimulant. I'm reluctant [5:23] to call it a stimulant because it's not [5:24] really stimulant in the classic sympathy [5:27] sense, right? Things like caffeine, um, [5:30] other forms of stimulants that increase [5:32] dopamine, epinephrine, and [5:33] norepinephrine, the so-called [5:34] catakolamines are called sympathy [5:37] because they actually increase the [5:38] activity of the sympathetic arm of the [5:40] autonomic nervous system, which is just [5:42] nerdy speak for increased alertness. [5:44] Alpha GPC is a unique tool in its [5:47] ability to increase focus and alertness [5:49] by virtue of increasing the output of [5:51] the acetylcholine pathway which is [5:53] involved in focus and to some extent [5:55] energy. but it's not a classic sympathy [5:58] and it either doesn't seem to hinder REM [6:01] sleep or it can slightly again slightly [6:04] increase the fraction of REM sleep that [6:06] you get. So that makes it a great tool. [6:08] Now it's not a perfect tool and I'll [6:10] tell you why. Increasing the amount of [6:12] choline in your system can after a few [6:15] biochemical steps increase the amount of [6:17] TMAO that is circulating in your body. [6:20] Now TMAO can be increased by any number [6:23] of things, fish, meat, etc. Anything [6:26] that increases choline levels can do [6:28] this, but alpha GPC does it pretty [6:30] potently. And so the key thing here is [6:33] you don't want too much TMAO [6:35] consistently over time because it does [6:38] carry some cardiovascular risk. And [6:39] there was one paper a few years back [6:41] that suggested that perhaps people who [6:43] use alpha GPC regularly at high dosages, [6:46] so 900 milligrams multiple times [6:48] throughout the day over long periods of [6:49] time may have increased risk of stroke [6:51] and other cardiovascular insults. And so [6:54] that's something to pay attention to. [6:56] There is some literature that suggests [6:59] that taking 600 milligrams of garlic [7:01] pretty much any time in the 24-hour [7:03] period that you take alpha GPC, but [7:05] probably best to just take them [7:06] together. Garlic has something called [7:08] allisonin in it, which can inhibit some [7:11] of the production of TMAO. We don't have [7:13] time to get into the whole TMAO [7:15] production pathway, but this has to do [7:16] with your gut, and a lot of these [7:18] conversions are done in the gut. And [7:20] garlic can inhibit that. It's probably a [7:22] good idea to be ingesting some garlic [7:24] regularly anyway. These garlic capsules [7:26] aren't um stinky like garlic. Some [7:29] people like the smell of garlic, others [7:30] don't, but it's not going to give you [7:31] garicky breath. It's very inexpensive. [7:33] So, my suggestion would be just to be on [7:36] the safe side if you're going to take [7:37] alpha GPC pretty regularly. And you [7:39] didn't mention how often you're doing [7:41] these workouts late in the day. I don't [7:42] know if this is 5 days a week or if this [7:44] is three days a week. I would say [7:45] anytime you're going to take alpha GPC, [7:48] you should take 600 milligrams of garlic [7:50] along with it. or if you can't do it [7:51] along with it, take it at some point in [7:52] the in the next, you know, 12 to 24 [7:54] hours to try and offset this TMAO. I [7:57] think you'll notice also that if you [7:59] take alpha GPC very regularly, like [8:01] every day or any more than like three, [8:03] four times a week, it's going to have a [8:05] diminished effect. So, I would reserve [8:07] taking the alpha GPC to just maybe once [8:09] or twice a week, maybe three times [8:11] maximum. And hopefully, you'll be able [8:12] to generate the kind of intensity that's [8:14] required for your workouts to stimulate [8:16] those adaptations that you're seeking in [8:18] strength, etc. without taking it every [8:21] single workout. How do you do that? [8:22] Well, you go into the workout relatively [8:24] rested. Okay, so this means getting the [8:27] proper amount of sleep the night before. [8:28] I think we vastly underestimate the [8:30] extent to which just getting your mind [8:32] in the right frame can help you generate [8:34] the kind of intensity that you need to [8:36] get a really terrific workout in. And [8:38] that doesn't require taking anything. [8:40] And if you happen to take alpha GPC2, [8:42] now you're doubling up these tools, [8:44] right? So when I say we vastly [8:46] underestimate, you know, most people [8:48] just kind of go into the gym, they're [8:49] looking at their phone. So if you can [8:51] afford to, if your life is arranged this [8:52] way, Anthony, and others, I recommend [8:55] make your workouts for you. Pour [8:57] everything you can into them mentally [8:58] and physically, maybe use alpha GPC [9:01] once, maybe twice, maybe three times a [9:03] week. Offset that TMAO effect. And then [9:06] there's another piece to this, which is [9:08] how can you ensure that you get the best [9:09] possible sleep coming off a workout [9:11] regardless of what you took. Okay, maybe [9:13] you drank some caffeine too late in the [9:14] day, maybe you didn't. I can understand [9:16] where there's kind of a pushpull of [9:17] things here. Here's what I suggest. [9:20] After you finish your workout, doesn't [9:21] have to be immediately, but take a hot [9:23] shower. Believe it or not, taking a hot [9:25] shower by virtue of the fact that you [9:27] warm up the surface of your body, will [9:29] trigger neurons in the medial preoptic [9:31] area of your hypothalammus, which act as [9:32] sort of a thermostat on your core body [9:34] temperature and will actually help drive [9:36] core body temperature down, which is a [9:38] prerequisite for getting to sleep. So in [9:41] other words, for many different reasons, [9:43] right, removing bacteria, etc., take a [9:45] nice hot shower after your nighttime [9:48] workout. And while you do that, or [9:50] perhaps while getting in or out of the [9:52] shower, do some long exhale breathing. [9:54] I've talked a lot about physiological [9:55] sigh. It's called physiological sigh, [9:57] not just sighing because it involves [9:59] this double inhale, long exhale, which [10:01] is involved in reducing the amount of [10:02] so-called sympathetic autonomic arousal. [10:05] Again, just alertness. When we do a [10:07] deliberate exhale, okay, so not just [10:09] passively exhaling, but when we draw out [10:11] our exhale [10:13] like so, you activate a descending [10:16] portion of the vagus nerve. Everyone [10:18] thinks about the Vegas nerve, like [10:19] sensory information coming up from the [10:20] body. That's 85% of the vagus pathway. [10:23] The other 10 to 15%, no one knows the [10:26] exact numbers, comes from the brain down [10:28] to the organs of the body. And one of [10:30] the main pathways there is to your [10:32] heart. And when you exhale, you slow [10:34] your heart rate down. And I've talked a [10:36] lot about this on previous podcasts. So [10:37] just doing that three or four times, [10:43] like so after your workout, could be [10:45] through your mouth, could be through [10:46] your nose, maybe while you shower, [10:48] getting out of the shower, you're trying [10:49] to bring your level of autonomic [10:50] activation down, down, down, and your [10:53] cortisol levels will follow. So even [10:55] though you spiked your cortisol levels, [10:57] you know, triple or quadruple from a [10:58] really effective workout, you can bring [11:00] them down deliberately using long exhale [11:03] breathing, nice hot shower to which is [11:06] warm and relaxing, right? It's not like [11:07] a cold shower which is stimulating. It's [11:09] going to help bring your levels of [11:11] arousal down. And then is the food [11:14] thing. Everyone has heard, me included, [11:18] don't eat two or three hours before [11:19] sleep because it will increase your [11:21] heart rate and it'll increase your [11:22] nighttime and morning glucose. will [11:24] impede your sleep. Well, yes and no. [11:27] Being super hungry and waking up in the [11:28] middle of the night because you're [11:29] hungry from a really hard workout, that [11:31] also will mess up your sleep. And I've [11:32] had that happen where I fall asleep [11:34] after a shower, I worked out later in [11:36] the day and then I'm awake at like 3:00 [11:38] in the morning and I'm eating a bowl of [11:39] oatmeal or something and it's not [11:41] convenient. Okay, then usually I can [11:42] fall back asleep, but it's just not a [11:44] good not a good way to arrange things. [11:46] My suggestion would be after you work [11:48] out, especially if it's a moderate to [11:50] highintensity workout, that you should [11:51] eat something. There's some literature [11:53] out there that suggests that the slower [11:55] digesting proteins such as milk [11:57] proteins, casein, you could have some [11:59] Greek yogurt. You could get some, you [12:00] know, casein uh protein powder if you [12:03] wanted. It's easily available out there. [12:05] Any number of different, you know, [12:06] quality brands will work. Uh maybe a a [12:08] bowl of oatmeal, some starch after you [12:11] work out to replenish glycogen stores. [12:12] These are all good things to do even in [12:14] that final hour before sleep. And no, [12:16] it's not going to completely nuke your [12:18] growth hormone levels during sleep. you [12:20] just spiked them tremendously during [12:21] that workout anyway. Now, if you're not [12:23] working out late in the day, folks, then [12:25] probably good to put a little bit of a [12:27] buffer between your final uh meal, [12:29] certainly full meal, and your sleep if [12:31] you can. But if you don't do that every [12:32] day, it's not the end of the world. But [12:34] for you, Anthony, and others who are [12:37] working out late in the day, if you do [12:39] these things right, sometimes alpha GPC, [12:41] sometimes no. Get it get your head [12:43] straight before you go in the gym so you [12:44] can really focus. That's the main one I [12:46] have to say. You know, I was recently [12:48] down in Spain working out with six time [12:50] Mr. Olympia Dorian Yates. And before the [12:52] workout, you know, you said, you know, [12:54] you're going to go in the corner, you're [12:54] going to, you know, ride that stationary [12:56] bike for three, four minutes. And it's [12:58] as much about warming up your mind and [12:59] really focusing on what we're going to [13:01] do today than the warming up of your [13:04] core body temperature. Yes, that too. [13:06] But you have to get into the right frame [13:07] so that you're training. You're not just [13:08] working out. I actually prefer to call [13:10] it training because you're practicing [13:11] every single time trying to get better, [13:12] bringing more focus. Don't underestimate [13:15] the value of that. and it doesn't [13:17] require taking anything at all. And then [13:19] if you do the other things I described [13:21] and afterwards you take a nice hot [13:23] shower and you're feeling really jazzed [13:24] up, do a bit more long exhale breathing. [13:26] And then as a final final point, no one [13:28] does all these things perfectly every [13:30] single week, week in and week out, year [13:32] in and year out. Do some of these [13:34] things. You'll notice a significant [13:36] difference. I do believe that. These are [13:37] the things that I know to be most potent [13:39] for addressing the question that you're [13:41] asking. If you do all of them, great. [13:43] And if you can't do all of them, you're [13:44] still going to derive some benefit. So, [13:46] good luck with uh your later evening [13:49] workouts transitioning into sleep. I'm [13:51] sure it's going to go great. And if you [13:53] have additional questions, call us back [13:55] the next time we solicit for them. I'd [13:57] like to take a quick break and [13:58] acknowledge our sponsor, Eight Sleep. [14:00] Eight makes smart mattress covers with [14:02] cooling, heating, and sleep tracking [14:04] capacity. One of the best ways to ensure [14:06] you get a great night's sleep is to make [14:08] sure that the temperature of your [14:09] sleeping environment is correct. 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For [14:44] instance, the Pod 5 has a feature called [14:46] autopilot, which is an AI engine that [14:48] learns your sleep patterns and then [14:50] adjusts the temperature of your sleeping [14:51] environment across different sleep [14:53] stages. It'll even elevate your head if [14:55] you're snoring, and it makes other [14:56] shifts to optimize your sleep. If you'd [14:58] like to try eight, go to [15:00] eight.com/huberman [15:02] to get up to $350 off the new Pod 5. [15:05] Eightlee ships to many countries [15:06] worldwide, including Mexico and the UAE. [15:09] Again, that's eight.com/huberman [15:12] to save up to $350. Today's episode is [15:15] also brought to us by BetterHelp. [15:17] BetterHelp offers professional therapy [15:19] with a licensed therapist carried out [15:21] entirely online. Now, I've been doing [15:23] therapy for a very long time, and I can [15:25] tell you that it's a lot like physical [15:26] workouts. There are days when I want to [15:28] do it, and there are days when I don't [15:29] want to do it. But when I finish a [15:31] therapy session, every single time I [15:32] come away feeling better and knowing [15:34] that the time was well spent. With [15:36] BetterHel, they make it very easy to [15:37] find an expert therapist who can help [15:39] provide the benefits that come from [15:40] effective therapy. And it works. [15:43] BetterHelp has an average rating of 4.9 [15:45] out of five for its live sessions based [15:47] on over 1.7 million client reviews. [15:50] Also, because BetterHelp is entirely [15:52] online, it's very timeefficient. There's [15:54] no driving to a therapist's office, [15:56] looking for parking, dealing with [15:57] traffic, etc. If you would like to try [15:59] BetterHelp, go to [16:00] betterhelp.com/huberman [16:03] to get 10% off your first month. Again, [16:05] that's betterhelp.com/huberman. [16:08] All right, let's hear the next question. [16:12] >> I have been making a concentrated effort [16:14] to get outside first thing in the [16:16] morning to help reset my circadian [16:19] rhythm. Is it okay to just be outside [16:23] even though all I really see is the sky [16:26] above me and the western sky or do I [16:29] really need to walk 20 minutes so I can [16:31] see the eastern horizon? [16:33] >> Okay, this is a great question. The [16:35] person remained anonymous which is also [16:36] terrific but thank you for your question [16:38] whoever you are. I get asked this [16:40] question all the time. Here's the deal. [16:44] Any amount of ambient daylight that you [16:47] can get in the first hour after waking [16:49] will greatly benefit you. It'll increase [16:51] your morning cortisol peak, which by the [16:52] way is a great thing. No, it's not going [16:54] to give you Cushing syndrome. No, it's [16:56] not going to make you gain weight. Quite [16:57] the opposite. In fact, it's going to [16:59] kickstart so many beneficial mechanisms. [17:01] Okay? It's also going to increase your [17:03] mood focus and alertness all day long as [17:05] a consequence of that early morning [17:07] cortisol peak. So, get ambient daylight [17:11] in your eyes in the first hour after [17:12] waking. Of course, if you wake up before [17:15] the sun comes out, you're going to have [17:16] to wait. A 10,000 lux artificial light [17:18] can be beneficial in those [17:19] circumstances. I don't have any [17:21] relationship to any company that sells [17:22] them, but they're out there on the [17:23] internet. They're all basically equally [17:25] effective. [17:27] If you get outside and you can walk [17:29] eastward, [17:31] sunglasses off, brimmed hats off, [17:32] because the light's coming from above [17:34] and you don't want to olude that with a [17:36] brimmed hat. Wear sunglasses. Eyeglasses [17:38] and contacts are fine. If you can do [17:40] that, great. Many people can't. Many [17:42] people only have the opportunity to step [17:44] out onto their balcony of their [17:46] apartment and it's west facing. Okay, [17:48] you're still going to benefit from all [17:50] those photons, all that ambient light. [17:53] And the reason I say daylight and not [17:54] sunlight is that for some reason, it's [17:56] semantic, but it's semantic and it leads [17:58] to a lot of confusion. When people hear [18:00] you got to get sunlight in your eyes [18:02] early in the morning, they think, "Oh, I [18:03] have to see the sun as an object." No. [18:05] Compare how bright it is at, say, 9:00 [18:08] a.m. in the depths of winter on an [18:10] overcast day facing westward in the [18:12] morning compared to midnight the night [18:14] before. It's so much brighter. There's [18:16] just so many photons. And that's what [18:18] are going to trigger these special cells [18:20] in your eye, the intrinsically [18:21] photosensitive melanopsin retinal [18:22] ganglen cells that literally send a [18:25] direct connection to your circadian [18:27] clock, set your circadian rhythm. So any [18:30] amount of ambient daylight that you can [18:32] get into your eyes, westward, eastward, [18:34] eastward being better, but westward [18:35] still being great. Clear day better than [18:38] overcast, but you can't control the [18:40] weather and neither can I. All are going [18:42] to help increase that morning cortisol [18:44] peak lead to larger increases in the [18:47] catakolamines, dopamine, epinephrine, [18:49] norepinephrine, which translates to more [18:51] daytime energy, improved mood, improved [18:54] focus. And here's the real key that most [18:57] people miss. By spiking all these [19:00] pro-arousal chemicals early in the day, [19:02] in particular in the first hours of our [19:04] day, ideally the first hour itself, [19:07] you're setting up the whole system to [19:09] have low levels of these proarousal [19:12] chemicals circulating come nighttime, [19:15] come evening. It makes it so much easier [19:17] to fall asleep. and cortisol and all [19:20] these other stimulatory chemicals that [19:22] you make they are in opposite phase to [19:26] melatonin. So by getting them high in [19:28] the morning and low in the evening and [19:29] at night with this daylight viewing and [19:32] that is the most potent stimulus to do [19:34] that you're setting yourself up for [19:37] increased melatonin your own natural [19:39] melatonin release at night and better [19:42] sleep more ease in falling asleep more [19:44] ease in staying asleep and more restful [19:46] sleep and on and on. So, the short [19:49] answer, totally fine to face westward. [19:52] The other short answer, please remove [19:54] your sunglasses. Please remove a brimmed [19:57] hat while you do it. You'll get more [19:58] ambient light in your eyes that way. If [20:00] you can rotate eastward and still get [20:02] some daylight, even better. If you can [20:04] walk eastward into the rising sun, even [20:06] better. Never look at any light, [20:08] sunlight or otherwise, that's so bright [20:09] that it's painful to look at without [20:11] blinking to protect your eyes. You have [20:12] a natural blink reflex to protect your [20:14] neural retinas, right? You don't want [20:16] blasting your eyes. You don't want to [20:17] force yourself to hold your eyelids [20:19] open. But I promise you, promise you, [20:21] promise you, if you do these things [20:23] regularly, you're going to benefit [20:25] tremendously. There's just so much [20:27] literature on that in humans in all [20:29] these different populations, ages, etc. [20:31] And as a final point, you mentioned that [20:34] you're benefiting from this to set your [20:36] circadian rhythm, and that's wonderful. [20:38] Just as a favor to everybody, I want to [20:40] take this as an opportunity to tell you [20:41] that your circadian rhythm when you feel [20:43] alert and when you feel sleepy is [20:45] dictated by these mechanisms. Okay? But [20:48] these mechanisms are slow integration [20:51] mechanisms. Meaning that your [20:54] supercismatic nucleus, your brain's [20:55] central circadian master clock that [20:57] organizes all of this is literally [21:00] integrating the number of photons that [21:02] you saw light energy in the previous two [21:05] or three days. So, if one morning you [21:07] have to just jump in the car and rush [21:09] off with your sunglasses on and get to [21:10] work and you can't do this, fine. Try [21:12] and get outside for a little bit longer [21:14] the next morning, okay? If you get a ton [21:16] of sunlight in your eyes one morning [21:17] because it's nice and clear and the next [21:19] day it's overcast and dreary, okay? or [21:21] god forbid you stay in bed and scroll [21:23] your phone which I don't recommend but [21:24] if you do that your super chaismatic [21:26] nucleus is making its physiological [21:30] decisions as to when your cortisol [21:32] should increase and your melatonin and [21:33] so on according to your previous two or [21:36] three days early day light exposure. [21:39] Yes, late in the day light exposure [21:40] matters. It really does. And you want to [21:42] keep your lights low late in the [21:43] evening. I talked about that just a few [21:45] minutes ago previous question. But that [21:48] morning bright light is really the thing [21:50] that sets the whole thing in motion. And [21:52] it's your last two or three days of [21:56] post-waking [21:57] bright light exposure that really [21:59] dictates your circadian rhythm. There [22:01] are other things too. Exercise, eating, [22:03] social interactions, etc. But that's the [22:04] biggie. That's the big what they call [22:06] zeitgeabber. That's the classic language [22:08] in the circadian literature. The classic [22:09] timekeeper. It means timekeeper. So if [22:12] you miss a day, double up on the amount [22:13] you get outside the next day. This, by [22:16] the way, is also why when you travel [22:18] someplace, your circadian clock doesn't [22:20] shift right away. It's still on your [22:22] previous city's schedule. It takes a few [22:24] days for things to adjust. That's a bad [22:25] thing when you travel. It's called jet [22:27] lag. It's a great thing when you're at [22:28] home because it gives you some [22:29] flexibility. So, you don't have to [22:31] optimize everything to the point where [22:32] you're like 20 minutes every day, 10 [22:34] minutes every day. Get 20 minutes one [22:35] day, get five the next, perhaps get 15 [22:37] the next. Do what you can. More photons, [22:40] better as long as you blink to protect [22:41] your eyes. But if you're getting fewer [22:44] photons, make it a little bit longer and [22:46] give yourself some ease. Give yourself [22:48] some grace. These mechanisms will take [22:50] really good care of you all on their [22:51] own. And next question, please. [22:54] >> Hello, Dr. Hub Berman. My name is Dr. [22:57] Datillos, MD. I have a simple question [23:00] about longevity and optimization [23:02] culture. I've seen people be strict and [23:05] diligent with their optimal protocols. [23:07] However, sometimes it becomes a source [23:09] of stress. When would you say longevity [23:11] protocols do more bad than good if [23:14] people worry about them? [23:16] >> Oh, thank you so much, doctor. I'm just [23:18] going to refer to you as doctor because [23:19] forgive me, I couldn't make out the [23:20] pronunciation of your name and if I were [23:22] to attempt it, I would probably not get [23:24] it right. So, uh, forgive me. I'm just [23:26] going to refer to you as doctor. But I'm [23:28] also going to extend my gratitude for [23:30] your question again because I know a lot [23:32] of people are thinking about this [23:34] overoptimization question issue these [23:37] days and it's a very important one. You [23:39] know I've uh spent the last six years or [23:41] so talking about protocols for health [23:44] for all sorts of things on the Huberman [23:46] Lab podcast and others have of as well [23:50] of course and the real issue I think [23:51] that everyone's dealing with right now [23:53] is kind of protocol overwhelm like like [23:56] what am I supposed to do? I barely have [23:57] time to do the basics and now we're, you [23:59] know, getting right down into the [24:00] details of, you know, particular [24:02] mechanisms at particular times of day. [24:04] Like, what am I supposed to do? Here's [24:06] the big picture. At least in my opinion, [24:09] optimization in its truest form is about [24:13] addressing each day of your life as an [24:15] independent unit and asking yourself, [24:17] okay, what can I do today to set myself [24:19] up for the best possible day given the [24:21] constraints upon me? Right? Maybe you're [24:24] dealing with a sick family member. Maybe [24:26] you're dealing with jet lag. Maybe [24:28] you're dealing with a deadline. You [24:30] know, I've dealt with all these things, [24:32] some of them recently. Maybe you're [24:34] dealing with being extremely well-rested [24:36] and you're on vacation and you wonder if [24:38] you should just kind of take the day off [24:40] and relax. These are real life issues [24:43] and optimization has to meet those real [24:45] life issues, not the other way around. [24:48] So optimization is about stepping back [24:50] and saying, "Okay, what are the things I [24:51] really enjoy doing and that clearly give [24:54] me energy, clearly make me feel better?" [24:56] These are the ones that are easy to do. [24:57] For me, that's getting morning sunlight. [24:59] It's hydrating in the morning. It's [25:01] exercise. I happen to like exercise. [25:03] Okay? Some days more, some days less, [25:05] but I happen to like it. Some people [25:06] loathe it. Okay? If you like a [25:08] particular protocol, you're more likely [25:11] to do it. That just stands to reason. [25:13] But then we also have to ask ourselves, [25:15] what are the most important protocols to [25:17] do consistently over time? And those are [25:19] very straightforward. Everyone knows [25:21] what those are. You want to do what you [25:22] can to get the best possible sleep. [25:24] Enough of it and high quality sleep. But [25:26] we're all human and it's also great to [25:28] stay out late doing fun things every [25:29] once in a while. Perfectly fine. I do [25:32] that. All of you should give yourself [25:33] permission to do that. In my opinion, [25:35] you will be just fine in the short and [25:37] in the long term. Okay. I do believe [25:40] that getting bright light in our eyes, [25:42] ideally from sunlight in the first hours [25:45] of the day, is one of the things to [25:46] really strive for because it's so brief. [25:48] It costs nothing and it is so well [25:51] supported by human data to create to [25:53] create excuse me outsized positive [25:55] effects on your mental and physical [25:57] health. It sets everything into its [25:59] right place. But as I just talked about [26:01] a few minutes ago to the previous [26:02] question, if you miss it one day, no big [26:05] deal. The next day, just make up for it. [26:07] I do think that a neurotic approach to [26:09] trying to get everything exactly right [26:11] is going to harm our mental health. [26:13] Maybe not severely in the short term, [26:15] but in the long run, it's just going to [26:16] lead to a different kind of burnout. [26:18] Kind of health optimization burnout, [26:20] which again is not about true [26:21] optimization anyway. So, we say morning [26:24] sunlight, great. Dimming the lights at [26:26] night. These are all zerocost, very [26:28] effective ways to improve our health and [26:29] well-being. If you're under the bright [26:31] lights at an event or doing something [26:32] fun, or god forbid, you have to be at [26:34] the hospital for a loved one or you [26:36] yourself in the hospital and the lights [26:38] are bright, you'll be okay. You want to [26:40] try and mitigate that if you're [26:41] confronted with it day after day after [26:43] day. You may get an eye mask, etc. But [26:46] every once in a while, no big deal. We [26:49] know that hydration is critical and is [26:51] very overlooked as a tool for increasing [26:54] energy and well-being. This is just [26:56] true, right? Most people don't think of [26:58] hydration as, you know, as exciting or [27:00] interesting, but it's very, very [27:02] important for mental clarity, physical [27:04] and mental energy. So, do that, right? [27:08] People argue how much you need to drink, [27:10] whether or not your urine needs to be [27:11] clear or not. It doesn't, by the way, [27:13] but making sure that you're getting [27:15] enough fluids. And by the way, the idea [27:16] that all fluids that aren't water are [27:19] dehydrating you, including coffee and [27:20] caffeine, the literature just doesn't [27:22] support that. I do think you should [27:24] drink some just good old water every [27:25] once in a while, but if you're getting a [27:27] lot of your liquids from, you know, I [27:28] drink a lot of yerba mate or coffee, [27:31] you're getting hydrated. Okay? Also, [27:33] drink some water if you can. And then we [27:35] know that exercise, nutrition, and [27:38] social connection are also vital. These [27:39] are the core pillars. Now, it's highly [27:42] individual as to whether or not somebody [27:44] needs these every single day, right? I [27:46] resistance training three times a week. [27:48] I do cardio three times a week. So, [27:49] that's six days a week of exercise. But [27:50] some of those sessions, in particular, [27:52] the high-intensity interval training, [27:53] it's very brief. 6 to 12 minutes to get [27:56] a sort of quote unquote max heart rate [27:58] V2 max type workout and very brief. One [28:00] of the cardiovascular exercise training [28:02] sessions is longer. It's an hourlong [28:04] hike or jog once a week. You have to [28:07] figure out what you can do consistently [28:09] over time. This is the other critical [28:11] feature. Overoptimization is going to [28:13] come from feeling that you have to do [28:14] everything all the time, right? Which [28:17] undoubtedly will lead to mental or some [28:19] other form of burnout or resentment of [28:21] this whole protocols health optimization [28:23] thing. It's what you can do consistently [28:26] over time. And when I say over time, I [28:28] don't mean your whole life. When I was [28:29] in graduate school, I literally only [28:32] exercised two to three days a week [28:33] because I was in lab all the time, but I [28:35] was going back and forth to the, you [28:37] know, I had to go to the vivarium. I had [28:39] to go back and forth and back. I was [28:40] doing so much physical activity. So, two [28:43] or three times a week. I wasn't happy [28:45] about that, but I was in heaven doing [28:47] experiments and I love doing science. [28:48] So, I was full and I was young, too. So, [28:50] I probably offset some of the whatever [28:52] health detriments would have been there. [28:54] And I didn't take very good care of my [28:55] sleep. It eventually caught up with me. [28:57] I made adjustments to my sleep. So what [28:59] I'm trying to say here is that true [29:01] optimization is about taking a rational [29:03] look at your life over the next 6 months [29:06] or year or if you're confronting a [29:08] deadline over the next month or two or [29:10] if you have a newborn child over the [29:11] next, you know, 6 to 12 months and [29:13] you're, you know, as anyone who's had a [29:14] kid will tell you, you know, you have to [29:16] constantly update what you can do and [29:17] what you can't do at particular times of [29:19] day because your job is to make sure [29:21] that they are taken care of first and [29:23] then that you're taken care of, right? [29:24] Uh this is obvious, but optimization is [29:28] not going to be about being rigid. It's [29:29] going to be about being adaptive. So [29:32] there's no simple prescriptive like when [29:34] you travel, cut back on exercise. In [29:36] fact, when I travel, I try to exercise [29:38] as much or more than when I'm at home [29:40] because I tend to do better on travel, [29:42] less jet lag, etc. I actually try to eat [29:45] better when I'm traveling. That means [29:46] mostly unprocessed or minimally [29:48] processed foods. And I enjoy doing that. [29:51] For some people going on vacation for [29:52] them is really just an opportunity to [29:54] just like I just want to be a complete [29:56] you know uh lazy lump and enjoy myself. [29:59] Okay, if that's your thing that's your [30:00] thing. You are in charge. I think this [30:02] is the key point. You are in charge of [30:05] which health quote unquote optimization [30:08] protocols you use. You are in charge of [30:11] which ones you don't use. I think the [30:13] burnout and the stress that people are [30:15] experiencing and I do think your point [30:17] is a good one that it can be detrimental [30:20] if we internalize the stress. I have to [30:21] I have to I have to can only be [30:23] addressed one of three ways. The first [30:25] one is to change your attitude about it. [30:26] Okay. Well, do I like this? Do I like [30:28] the effects? All right. Well, if I don't [30:30] like it, but I like the effects and [30:31] they're big enough for me, cool. I'll do [30:32] it anyway. Ideally, you like it and you [30:34] like the effects, right? That's ideal. [30:36] You're more likely to do those things. [30:37] The next one is you have to ask [30:39] yourself, can I be consistent about [30:41] this? Can I be consistent with six [30:44] workouts a week, even though some are [30:45] very short? Maybe I just need to work [30:47] out longer three times a week, or maybe [30:48] you just get two times a week to work [30:50] out. Can you eat clean, mostly [30:53] unprocessed, minally processed foods, [30:55] plenty of fiber, plenty of low sugar [30:56] fermented foods, get enough protein, [30:58] etc. whatever that means to you if [30:59] you're vegan, vegetarian or you, you [31:01] know, eat meat does, you know, everyone [31:03] has their different, you know, kind of [31:04] regimens. But you need to be able to do [31:07] that in a way that you enjoy. I like [31:09] eating healthy food, okay? I don't [31:12] really feel good after eating garbage [31:14] food. So, I don't like garbage food. I'm [31:16] not drawn to garbage food, but some [31:18] people really like their their treats. [31:20] They like their quote unquote bad food. [31:22] You're going to have to allow yourself a [31:23] little bit of that if you're going to [31:24] remain a happy person. And certainly if [31:27] you're going to resent all of the [31:29] process, that's the third category. If [31:30] you're going to resent something, you're [31:32] going to resent yourself or whoever you [31:34] think told you to do it. Look, I don't [31:35] tell anyone what to do. I make [31:37] suggestions that you can take or leave. [31:38] And that's what other people in the [31:40] public health communication space are [31:42] doing, too. So, you know, and this is [31:45] true for alcohol, too, as well. You [31:46] know, I've talked a lot about alcohol. [31:47] Zero is better than any. Two is probably [31:49] fine for non-alcoholic adults, etc., [31:51] etc. But that doesn't mean that I [31:52] condemn people that drink. I personally [31:54] don't like drinking. I feel better when [31:56] I don't. But I have many people in my [31:58] life that enjoy having a drink every [31:59] once in a while and I've insisted that [32:01] they not apologize to me when they order [32:02] a glass of wine. I don't want that. I, [32:04] you know, that can only lead to resent. [32:06] Okay. So, the big one is to ask yourself [32:08] what you can do consistently over time. [32:10] And then really understand what that [32:12] time word means for you. This week, this [32:15] month, this period of your life. And [32:17] just be willing to be flexible, update, [32:19] and then check yourself for resentments, [32:21] right? Do you resent me? Do you resent [32:24] the world that's telling you to do this [32:26] or are you like, "Oh, this is cool." [32:27] Like, "I can take it or leave it." You [32:29] know, you're your own person. I'm [32:30] telling you this to everyone, not just [32:32] you, uh, doctor. Uh, of course, I'm [32:34] telling this to everyone. You're your [32:35] own person. You are in charge of you. [32:37] Self-care for you is going to mean [32:38] something different than it does to me [32:39] or somebody else. And by no means should [32:42] you feel guilty for coming off the the [32:44] the gas a little bit, as we say, and [32:47] like easing up a little bit. And I will [32:49] make this point. By no means should any [32:51] of you feel guilty for doing every [32:52] little thing perfectly as you see [32:55] perfect to be because you enjoy that and [32:57] because you think it makes you feel [32:58] better. Do not apologize for being you. [33:01] That's the most important point. And I [33:03] think that's what real optimization is [33:04] about. You know, the saying that I've [33:06] put out on social media a few times over [33:08] the years, but perhaps I haven't put out [33:09] enough is do what you want for you, [33:13] provided you're not hurting anyone else. [33:15] But know what you're doing. This podcast [33:18] is about trying to educate people about [33:20] what they're doing when they do A or B, [33:23] what you might benefit from if you do A [33:25] or B, but you have to be your own [33:26] laboratory, and most importantly, like I [33:29] just said, be you. I'd like to take a [33:32] quick break and acknowledge our sponsor, [33:34] AG1. I'm excited to share that AG1 has [33:37] just launched their newest formulation, [33:39] AG1 Pro. AG1 Pro takes the clinically [33:42] backed AG1 formula, which is a blend of [33:44] vitamins, minerals, probiotics, and [33:46] adaptogens, and adds three important new [33:48] ingredients: creatine monohydrate, [33:50] calcium HMBB, and zinc carnosine. Each [33:53] serving has 5 grams of creatine [33:55] monohydrate to support muscle strength [33:56] and performance, as well as brain [33:58] health. Calcium HMBB to support muscle [34:00] recovery and reduce muscle breakdown, [34:02] and zinc carnosine to support and [34:04] improve the lining of your gut. All [34:06] three of these ingredients have [34:07] compelling science to support them, and [34:09] therefore, I love seeing them added to [34:11] the existing AG1 formula. As most of you [34:13] know, I've been taking AG1 every day for [34:16] nearly 14 years now. I started taking it [34:18] long before I even knew what a podcast [34:19] was. It's a great product, and it's now [34:21] made even better with the new AG1 Pro [34:24] formula. If you would like to try AG1 [34:26] Pro, you can go to drink a1.com/huberman [34:30] to get a special offer. AG1 is giving [34:32] away a free bottle of Omega-3 co-enzyme [34:34] Q10 with your first subscription. Again, [34:37] go to drinkaga1.com/huberman [34:40] to get a free bottle of omega-3 [34:41] co-enzyme Q10 with your first AG1 [34:44] subscription. Okay, these are great [34:46] questions. So, let's get another. [34:48] >> Hello, Dr. Huberman. My name is Sarah [34:50] and I come from the south of England in [34:53] the UK. And I would love to know what [34:56] your top health hacks um from a [35:00] neuroscience perspective were for [35:03] improving your memory and also improving [35:08] your sense of smell. Um, those two [35:12] things I would really like to work on [35:14] and I was wondering if you could tell me [35:17] what the best things to try would be. [35:20] >> Great. Well, thank you Sarah from south [35:23] of England. Just came back from London [35:25] recently. Used to get over there a lot [35:27] more uh to the UK. It's a lovely place. [35:29] I won't attempt my British accent, but [35:32] I'm envious of the British accent. It's [35:34] um delightful. Okay. Neuroscience [35:37] supported tools for improving memory. [35:40] There is a vast neuroscience literature [35:43] on memory in particular that memories [35:45] are encoded, right? They're first made [35:47] in the structure that we call the [35:48] hippocampus. You actually have two of [35:49] them, hippocampi, one on each side of [35:51] your brain. And then memories once [35:54] they're formed are kind of pushed out. [35:56] They're not really pushed out, but [35:58] they're sent to uh different circuits in [36:01] the neoortex, which is the outer part of [36:03] the brain, the bumpy part of the brain [36:05] that appears wrinkly uh when the skull [36:08] is removed. And what we know about that [36:11] process is that memories change from [36:14] when we first make them to when they're [36:16] first stored to many years later [36:19] depending on whether we rehearse or we [36:22] have to recall in some instances what [36:25] those memories were. Meaning a memory [36:28] that you formed in the fifth grade that [36:30] might have been very relevant to your [36:32] life then. remembering the the um [36:34] intersection where a good friend, not [36:36] your best friend, but a good friend uh [36:38] lived and how to navigate there. [36:40] Important perhaps when you were friends [36:42] with that person in the fifth grade, not [36:44] later. Right? So, the memory was made. [36:45] It was put into your neoortex [36:48] and elsewhere presumably and eventually [36:50] it just sort of dissipates, but it's [36:52] still there. And the reason I'm giving [36:54] you this brief neuroscience lesson, this [36:56] and it's only a tiny tiny fraction of [36:58] what we know about the formation and [36:59] storage of memories, is because when [37:01] you're thinking about neuroscience [37:02] supported ways to increase your memory, [37:05] there's really two approaches to that. [37:07] One is about recall of things that you [37:10] very likely will lose if you don't [37:11] continue to practice them. The other is [37:14] about learning new things. Okay? And [37:16] these operate differently in terms of [37:19] how your brain is able to remember [37:23] additional things going forward. In [37:25] other words, you need to practice both [37:27] forms of memory. That is recalling [37:30] previous memories to keep them available [37:33] to you as well as learning new things in [37:36] order to keep the whole memory system [37:38] vital and able to continue to both [37:40] remember things like names, which people [37:42] often are upset that they start [37:44] forgetting as they get older. that they [37:46] see that as a warning sign that they [37:48] might be developing dementia or [37:49] something of that sort, which it isn't [37:51] necessarily, I should point out, and [37:53] their ability to continue to learn new [37:55] things. So, we can break this down into [37:58] either a 4-hour podcast or a brief [38:00] answer. And I'm going to try and provide [38:01] a brief but sufficient for now answer [38:04] for you and anyone else interested in [38:06] this issue. [38:08] If you are interested in forming new [38:10] memories, the most important pieces of [38:13] the formula are the following. And this [38:15] is very well supported in the [38:16] neuroscience literature. You must be [38:19] focused at the time of encoding. At the [38:21] time when you're trying to learn the [38:23] thing. Okay, that means you also have to [38:26] be alert. There's no focus without [38:28] alertness. That also means getting good [38:30] sleep. That also means exercise. And [38:33] this is a point about exercise and brain [38:35] longevity that most people miss, which [38:37] is that many, not all, but many of the [38:40] benefits of exercise on brain health and [38:43] memory are because of the pro- arousal [38:46] effects of exercise. Meaning, if you do [38:48] a 30-minute jog or brisk walk even, or [38:52] you do a moderate to high-intensity [38:54] resistance training session, or you hop [38:56] on a uh like an one of those uh [38:59] aerodyine bikes with a with a fan, which [39:01] you'll quickly learn is not designed to [39:02] cool you off, but rather to provide [39:04] resistance and you warm up for a minute [39:05] and then you sprint hard for a minute or [39:07] half a minute and then, you know, pedal [39:09] easy for a minute and then go 30 seconds [39:11] again. That sort of thing will get your [39:12] heart rate up up. There is now a vast [39:16] literature showing that all those forms [39:17] of exercise and others as well. Even [39:19] things as mellow as Tai Chi, which turns [39:21] out to be pretty difficult. I tried it [39:23] recently. It's not that easy to do [39:24] correctly. Tai Chi, a yoga class, all [39:27] forms of exercise because they raise [39:30] your levels of autonomic arousal and [39:32] alertness. And they get these again the [39:34] catakolamines is a repeating theme, the [39:36] dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine, [39:38] and circulating. Yes, they increase [39:39] things like brain derived neutrophic [39:40] factor etc. They set you up to learn [39:43] better in part because of the chemicals [39:47] and their ability to make your brain [39:50] connections more plastic. But the [39:52] biggest effect of exercise is the [39:55] pro-arousal effect. Put differently, it [39:58] increases alertness which allows you to [40:00] focus better which is the first real [40:03] step in triggering learning and [40:04] neuroplasticity. So this is a very [40:06] important point for people to understand [40:08] because people want to hear ah you know [40:11] um it's this form of exercise or that [40:12] form of exercise. It's the form of [40:14] exercise that gives you a boost in [40:16] alertness. Sure BDNF and there are other [40:18] things too. IGF-1. I mean, why could [40:20] make a list of 50 chemicals that [40:21] exercise increases that facilitate [40:24] neuroplasticity? But the most potent [40:26] effects are by virtue of the fact that [40:28] exercise increases arousal, which then [40:31] allows you to focus better in the [40:33] following one to six hours. [40:36] What do you do in those 1 to six hours [40:38] is really the key to actually learning [40:41] something that benefits your memory. [40:42] Just being more alert but not focused on [40:45] anything specific is not going to help [40:47] your memory specifically. Okay? It might [40:51] facilitate brain health. So the exercise [40:53] thing is the first domino that needs to [40:55] fall, but if you can be alert and really [40:58] focused on any kind of learning without [41:00] doing exercise first, yes, you should [41:02] still exercise for other reasons, but [41:04] there's nothing special about exercise [41:06] in terms of neuroplasticity of learning [41:08] other things except this arousal effect. [41:10] Okay. Alertness allows you to be [41:12] focused. When you're focused, the [41:15] neuroscience tells us that you have to [41:16] make errors. You have to make errors. [41:18] Whether or not you're trying to learn [41:19] dance, you're trying to learn uh do a [41:21] cross word puzzle, you're trying to get [41:22] better at chess, you're trying to learn [41:24] um how to code, you're trying to learn [41:27] um how to be different in certain social [41:29] interactions, whatever it is you're [41:30] trying to learn or a physical skill, you [41:32] have to push yourself past the limits of [41:35] your abilities. Why? Well, put simply, [41:37] if your nervous system can carry out [41:40] something that you're trying to do, [41:41] there is absolutely no reason for it to [41:43] change. Period. End of story. You have [41:46] to make errors through deliberate [41:49] effort to do things correctly, right? [41:51] You can't just do throwaway errors. [41:52] Like, you can't go just, this is [41:54] obvious, but just for sake of uh [41:56] example, you can't go out to the tennis [41:57] court and intentionally miss a bunch of [42:00] of serves and get better at serving. [42:02] That's obvious, right? What you have to [42:04] do is serve to the best of your ability. [42:06] serve to the best of your ability. And [42:07] when you fail, when you screw up, that [42:09] sends a signal through a very [42:11] interesting set of circuits that's [42:13] relayed through your mini brain, as they [42:14] call your cerebellum in the back that [42:16] then carries the error signal forward, [42:18] and then the rest of your brain has to [42:19] reshape itself. And here's a critical [42:21] point. The reshaping occurs during deep [42:24] rest, in particular, sleep. Both [42:26] slowwave deep sleep and rapid eye [42:28] movement sleep, which we talked about [42:29] earlier in this episode. Both are [42:31] crucial. Some people need six hours of [42:32] sleep a night, some seven, some eight, [42:34] some nine. Okay, do your best to get [42:36] what you need consistently. So you need [42:39] that sleep in the ideally the night [42:40] after you try and learn something or [42:43] every night. Please see previous [42:44] question about the problems with [42:45] overoptimization. I don't want anyone to [42:47] take these things as rule of law. If you [42:49] don't sleep well for a night or two, [42:50] it's not like your learning is [42:51] completely nuked, but you don't want to [42:53] do that consistently. The deep rest [42:55] piece is critical. But then there's [42:57] another one. There's a really impressive [42:59] literature that shows and this is backed [43:02] by neuroscience. Okay, so brain imaging, [43:04] it's backed by performance, which is [43:06] perhaps the most important thing, [43:07] people's ability to learn new [43:09] information. And remember the other [43:11] important aspect of memory to call back [43:14] memories of things from the past, and [43:16] it's self- testing. This is the most [43:19] overlooked powerful protocol for [43:22] neuroplasticity. In fact, I covered a [43:24] bunch of studies on this in the how to [43:25] study and learn episode of the podcast. [43:27] I'm guessing a bunch of students watch [43:28] that podcast. Very popular episode. Um, [43:30] but I'm guessing a lot of non- [43:31] studentents probably didn't because the [43:33] word study probably sounded like if [43:34] you're not in school, this wouldn't be [43:35] relevant. But it's highly re relevant. [43:37] And here are the the key takeaways. [43:39] People were given a passage of [43:40] information to read and they could [43:41] either do it once, twice, three times, [43:43] or four times. This has been done with [43:45] multiple uh iterations in different [43:47] studies. Some studies included taking [43:50] notes. Some studies included [43:51] highlighting. You know, all the [43:52] different ways that people study [43:54] information to try and learn. By far the [43:57] most impactful thing for forming stable [44:00] memories over time or calling back old [44:02] memories to keep this memory system [44:04] thriving was self- testing. That self- [44:07] testing can take the form of just, hm, [44:10] can I do a mental walk back to my [44:11] friend's house from the fifth grade? [44:13] Now, you have to ask yourself, is this [44:15] relevant information for your life now? [44:17] Well, perhaps not, but maybe you're just [44:19] testing your memory system, right? And [44:22] here's the key. Errors should be [44:24] expected and embraced. Whether you're [44:26] trying to learn some new information [44:28] from two days ago, whether you're trying [44:30] to remember information from uh three [44:33] years ago or 30 years ago, when you [44:35] can't remember, that's your nervous [44:37] system's cue that it's going to need to [44:39] draw it out of those circuits which are [44:41] now in your neoortex. It's deep within [44:43] your memory. Although it's a bit of a [44:44] misnomer because your hippocampus sits [44:46] deeper to your cortex, but anyway, [44:47] that's a nerdy side point. It's [44:49] distributed out there and you need to [44:51] call it back. And the only way to really [44:53] call back those memories in a way that [44:55] they're going to stay with you going [44:56] forward to keep your memory and keep [44:58] these circuits going that allow you to [45:00] continue to form new memories keep this [45:02] whole system robust is to make errors [45:05] where you go I can't remember what came [45:08] after three [45:11] in well question one of the Hubberman [45:13] Lab podcast Q&A like right now what was [45:15] that third thing? So you have to test [45:17] yourself. Now, if you go right back and [45:18] you just get the information, that's not [45:20] going to help you much. That's just like [45:22] reading it again or hearing it again or [45:23] highlighting it, it's not going to help [45:24] you that much. You have to remember what [45:27] you can remember and then you have to [45:29] hit the point of ah, I can't remember [45:30] that. Darn it. That friction point, that [45:33] tip of the tongue phenomenon. Like, I [45:34] can't remember that person's name. [45:36] Great. Those memories are now [45:37] resurfacing. If you wait some period of [45:38] time, typically they come back. If you [45:40] have to go look them up later, great. [45:42] You won't forget them as readily as if, [45:44] of course, you didn't go look them up. [45:46] The point here is that all of learning [45:48] is anti-forgetting. It almost sounds [45:50] like a giant duh when you hear it, but [45:53] all of learning and memory is [45:54] anti-forgetting. And we need to push [45:57] both the learning, right? Alertness, [45:59] focus, trigger that plasticity. Deep [46:01] rest and sleep allow the plasticity to [46:03] actually occur. The physical reshaping [46:05] of circuitry that's going to carry those [46:07] memories. But then we have to [46:09] consolidate that over time. We have to [46:11] recall it. Okay? and self- testing with [46:14] errors, pushing ourselves to the point [46:16] where we can't remember something and [46:17] then looking it up and reconsolidating [46:20] it. That's the key. That's what the [46:21] neuroscience literature says. That's [46:23] what the psychological literature says. [46:26] And there's just so much data to support [46:27] this. So Sarah, my suggestion would be [46:31] test yourself on things that you're [46:33] interested in learning regardless of [46:36] whether the learning occurred recently [46:37] or it's from the the past. Both forms of [46:40] of testing yourself. And again, this can [46:42] just be done mentally on a walk. You [46:43] could write down questions for yourself. [46:45] Most people won't do that. These days, [46:47] I'll use chat GPT to test myself on [46:49] material either from a podcast or even [46:51] some material that I learned long ago [46:53] and I'll sort of say design a basic test [46:56] at the level of kind of second year [46:57] graduate school at I don't know for me [47:00] it was you know graduate school [47:02] neuroscience and you know in synaptic [47:04] transmission. And I of course remember [47:05] that stuff, but they're little details [47:06] that over time, if you don't practice, [47:07] can Wayne. And of course, I'm learning [47:09] new things all the time. And in order to [47:11] put those to memory to really [47:13] consolidate those, I'll use chat GBT to [47:16] generate a a test for myself. And it is [47:18] really good because I can say, you know [47:20] what, that was too easy. Make it harder. [47:22] Okay. So, there's a lot more to say [47:23] about that. Um, I suggest listening to [47:25] the how to study and learn episode if [47:27] you'd like to go deeper into that. We've [47:28] done a number of episodes on memory, [47:30] including working memory elsewhere. But [47:32] the general themes here are consistent [47:35] across all forms of memory, all ages, [47:37] and all forms of learning. Your second [47:39] question, Sarah, was about how to [47:40] improve sense of smell. The one very [47:42] wellsupported way is to test yourself on [47:45] smells, to actually take a lemon. You [47:49] will probably also want a quite [47:51] different smell, maybe a rose, maybe [47:52] some chocolate. This could be a fun one [47:54] to do. Any number of different smells. [47:56] Let's avoid noxious smells. And I'll [47:58] tell you why you can avoid noxious [47:59] smells in this because there's a [48:00] hardwired pathway for that. You never [48:02] you actually never uh lose your core [48:05] ability to detect noxious smells unless [48:07] you've had some damage to the alactory [48:09] system. It's a different pathway. But [48:11] all these other smells, coffee, you can [48:13] lay those out and you simply want to [48:15] take some time to [48:18] do more sniffs than you think you need [48:20] to do. We had a very popular episode of [48:22] the podcast with Noom soil who's one of [48:24] the world experts in uh olfaction in in [48:27] our ability to detect smells and he [48:30] taught there and I followed up on what [48:32] he taught and it's a beautiful [48:33] literature showing that our sense of [48:35] smell is actually on par with that of [48:38] canines. I know dogs and you might say [48:40] that's impossible. Well, it turns out [48:42] that if you look at the sheer number of [48:43] olfactory neurons, we don't have quite [48:46] as many but we're headed in that [48:48] direction. [48:49] our ability to smell at a given level [48:52] and their ability to smell at a [48:54] remarkably higher level has much more to [48:56] do with the amount of sniffing that they [48:58] do per unit time than the olfactory [49:03] system itself. And it turns out that [49:05] some people can get really really good [49:08] at detecting smells. The alactory [49:10] neurons, the ones that are critically [49:11] involved in our sense of smell, not only [49:13] do they turn over throughout the [49:15] lifespan. So this is very different than [49:16] other central nervous system neurons, [49:18] which you basically get one set for [49:19] life. There are a few others that turn [49:20] over, but the alactory neurons are [49:22] really the world heavyweight champions [49:24] of turnover throughout the lifespan. [49:26] You're constantly turning them over. [49:28] That turnover and their tuning to [49:30] particular smells, which translates to [49:32] your ability to smell, is activity [49:35] dependent. It requires the electrical [49:37] activity of those neurons. How do you [49:39] generate the electrical activity of [49:40] those neurons? You sniff. Sniffing is [49:43] what does it and smelling particular [49:45] odors is what does it as well. You need [49:47] those two things in combination [49:48] obviously. So, [49:51] or and really paying attention. So, [49:54] close your eyes. Try and make it a quiet [49:55] environment. There's some background [49:57] noise. No big deal. If this is in a [49:58] crowded restaurant or something, give a [50:00] really good set of sniffs, a really good [50:02] deep long inhale. Why am I telling you [50:06] this? Well, the more act times that you [50:09] sniff, the longer those inhales, the [50:11] more those cells fire in the presence of [50:13] that odor. And by the way, odors are the [50:15] actual molecules of that thing entering [50:16] your nose, which is why we're not [50:18] talking about noxious things as well. [50:20] It's clear now why this is such a [50:22] beautiful system. I could talk about it [50:24] for hours, but I'm going to keep this [50:25] brief going forward. I promise just a [50:27] few more minutes. Dogs, when they sniff, [50:31] they're actually getting many more [50:33] sniffs through one inhale. How can that [50:36] be? Well, if you've ever seen that sort [50:37] of J-shaped nostril on uh the dog's [50:41] nose, it's kind of like little notches [50:43] on the sides. It creates a a physical [50:47] environment where every inhale, keeps [50:50] the odor in and keeps it circulating. [50:52] So, they're spending a lot of time with [50:54] each odor, even if they smelled [50:56] something a few seconds or even minutes [50:57] ago. They're integrating odors across [50:59] space. They actually have stereo, which [51:02] simply means they're comparing the odors [51:04] coming in through one nostril versus [51:06] another unconsciously presumably paying [51:08] attention to odor plumes, what direction [51:10] they're coming from. They are so [51:12] spectacular. In particular, the scent [51:14] hounds. Other animals do this too of [51:16] course, but dogs are a great example. [51:18] And so when they sniff what's there, [51:20] they're getting a rich amount of [51:22] information in part because they have a [51:24] lot of neurons to detect it, but also [51:26] because they're paying total attention. [51:28] Watch a dog when it's really fixated on [51:30] a smell. They're almost, you know, it [51:32] almost seems as if they're deaf to [51:33] anything you're you're saying and blind [51:34] to anything that's around. They're [51:36] really focused. They're cutting out all [51:38] other sensory cues and they're spending [51:40] a lot of time with that odor by virtue [51:42] of the physical structure of their nose. [51:44] There's a beautiful literature on this, [51:45] by the way. So, to build up your sense [51:47] of smell, spend some time with some [51:49] smells. Inhale longer. [51:51] Pay attention. Focus on it. This might [51:54] sound like kind of just kind of trivial, [51:56] you know, uh, nuts and bolts type stuff, [51:58] like, oh yeah, well, of course, right? [51:59] You know, how else would I build up my [52:01] sense of smell? But this is really the [52:02] way that the activity dependent rewiring [52:05] and reestablishment of this ongoing [52:08] turnover of this population of neurons [52:10] occurs. Now, if you have a respiratory [52:12] illness or uh god forbid someone takes a [52:15] head hit, the cribopform plate, which is [52:17] a kind of it's like a Swiss cheese [52:19] shaped uh bone at the back of the nose [52:22] where the alactory uh neuron axons go [52:25] through, they can often get sheared off [52:26] and people can become so-called adnosmic [52:29] anosmic. So, they can't smell for some [52:31] period of time. And a lot of people [52:32] think they'll never get their smell [52:33] back, but these sorts of things have [52:35] been shown to help, especially [52:36] immediately after the injury. Although [52:38] there is some evidence that uh you can [52:40] get enhanced smell over time. And if you [52:42] haven't had such an injury, you can [52:43] really build up your sense of smell. So [52:46] improving our sense of smell is vital [52:48] enough that when it's reduced or [52:50] removed, it can be really rough on [52:52] people in a serious way. Okay? It um it [52:55] can really in inhibit their quality of [52:57] life. But if you're going to put in [52:58] major effort to get your sense of smell [53:00] back, well then I can just say if it [53:02] were me, I would do the kind of smell [53:05] training or I should say the multiple [53:07] sniff training. All right, let's hear [53:09] your next question. [53:11] >> Hi, this is Van Spina. There's a lot of [53:13] advice on the internet around eating [53:15] specific foods for fertility. What do [53:18] you see in the literature around any [53:20] specific foods that boost either male or [53:25] female fertility beyond just eating a [53:28] healthy balanced diet? [53:30] >> Thank you, Van, for your question. This [53:33] is a very interesting question and I've [53:35] hosted a number of guests on the [53:37] Hubberman Lab podcast, including some [53:39] female fertility experts. I had a [53:41] discussion about male hormone health and [53:43] fertility with Dr. Kyle Gillette who's a [53:45] medical doctor and there are a couple of [53:49] basic principles that apply to both men [53:51] and to women. So I'll cover those first [53:53] and those at least in the context of [53:55] nutrition can be summarized the [53:57] following way. You need adequate [53:59] calories to ensure fertility but you [54:01] don't want an excess of calories. Now [54:04] that might seem obvious but when you [54:06] think about it a little bit more deeply [54:07] it has some important implications not [54:09] just about caloric load but food choices [54:11] as well. So, I was in a discussion with [54:15] Dr. Kyle Gillette, MD, who is truly an [54:17] expert in male hormone health and [54:19] fertility. And we were talking on the [54:21] podcast a while ago, and I've had some [54:23] offline conversations with him as well [54:26] about should men be wary of cutting [54:28] calories too much if they want to have [54:31] their testosterone and their fertility [54:33] in the ideal range. Okay, what are we [54:35] talking about when we talk about ideal? [54:36] Yes, there's a reference range, the [54:38] so-called 300 NOGS per deciliter up to [54:41] typically 900 or in some countries 1,200 [54:43] NOGS per deciliter. That's a huge [54:45] reference range. But keep in mind that [54:47] that's just one indication of hormone [54:50] health and testosterone health. There's [54:52] also your free testosterone, which is [54:54] critical. There's also the testosterone [54:56] to estrogen ratio. And contrary to what [54:58] many people believe, men do not ideally [55:01] want their testosterone really high and [55:03] their estrogen really really low because [55:04] estrogen is is actually very important. [55:07] So we were having this general [55:08] discussion and Dr. Gillette explained it [55:12] very simply. If a man is carrying excess [55:15] body weight, if he's starting to carry [55:17] more than, say, 20% body fat, then he [55:20] would be wise to cut calories to a [55:22] submaintenance level and lose some of [55:24] that body fat, ideally while doing [55:26] resistance training in order to preserve [55:28] or even build muscle and bring that body [55:30] fat percentage down. And that's going to [55:33] improve his testosterone, free [55:35] testosterone, and other hormone markers [55:38] of verility, vitality, and fertility. [55:42] However, he pointed out that if a male [55:45] is, you know, 15% body fat or less, if [55:49] he cuts calories below maintenance level [55:51] for too long, so I'm not talking about [55:52] one or two days per week. I'm talking [55:54] about consistently across the week, six [55:56] or seven days per week perhaps, and [55:59] doing that for two or three or more [56:00] weeks in order to lower body fat [56:02] percentage. That's very likely to reduce [56:06] his testosterone and free testosterone [56:08] levels. And in the context of fertility [56:11] that could could potentially have a [56:13] negative impact on his fertility. Now [56:16] fertility in males has a number of [56:17] different metrics. Okay? It's it's not [56:19] assessed by just one thing. It's not [56:21] just sperm count. It's also sperm [56:22] quality which has a number of different [56:24] measures itself. Fortunately, the [56:27] measures of male fertility in the [56:29] context of a sperm sample are very [56:31] inexpensive to obtain nowadays. Uh [56:33] there's some mail home kits that men can [56:35] use uh if they'd like to do that at [56:37] home. There are clinics that can do [56:39] this. It's and it's very inexpensive and [56:41] easy to assess. So, if you're a male and [56:44] you're interested in conceiving or [56:46] you're just generally thinking about [56:47] your fertility given some other things [56:49] you might be doing or your medical [56:51] history, you might want to get a sperm [56:54] analysis. It's easy to do. It's [56:56] inexpensive. All of that is fairly [56:58] straightforward to do nowadays and you [57:00] can get a snapshot into your fertility [57:03] at basically any age and in the context [57:05] of other medications and things that you [57:06] might be taking. Okay, so that's the [57:09] caloric either excess. Okay, so men who [57:13] are carrying excess body fat should try [57:14] and get that body fat level down. Men [57:16] who are in a healthier range of body fat [57:18] percentage would be wise to not go into [57:21] at least a severe caloric deficit. Okay, [57:23] probably no more than 500 calories per [57:25] day caloric deficit for extended periods [57:28] of time if you're thinking about [57:29] conceiving or you want to maintain [57:30] fertility. And then I should just put [57:32] this out there and this wasn't part of [57:33] the question, but I know there's a lot [57:35] of interest nowadays in testosterone [57:38] replacement therapy, be aware, this is [57:40] the critical point. If you take [57:42] exogenous testosterone, even a little [57:44] bit, even if you're quote unquote micro [57:46] doing it, so less than 100 milligrams [57:48] per week or so, it will negatively [57:50] impact your sperm count. It will [57:53] negatively impact your sperm count. It [57:55] can be partially to completely offset by [57:57] taking hCG which is typically taken you [58:00] know something like 500 IUs three times [58:03] a week. Some people do higher doses etc [58:05] alongside the the testosterone therapy. [58:09] But if you don't take hCG and you're [58:11] taking any kind of exogenous [58:12] testosterone because of the negative [58:14] feedback loop by which testosterone is [58:17] is made in the in the male body it will [58:20] deplete your sperm count. Okay. And [58:22] whether you can bring that sperm count [58:23] back up with hCG and other therapies [58:26] later on. Usually the answer is yes. But [58:29] sometimes the answer is no. So you want [58:31] to be very careful, very, very careful [58:33] about using exogenous testosterone. Do [58:35] it in the context of a well-informed [58:37] doctor. Let them know your fertility [58:39] goals and let them also tell you that [58:41] your fertility goals may change over [58:43] time. So if you're like, I don't want [58:44] kids, maybe someday you will and you [58:46] need to think about that. Maybe even [58:47] just freeze a sperm sample. Okay. for [58:50] women [58:51] who on average carry higher percentages [58:54] of body fat than do men, right? The same [58:58] general principle applies and this is [59:00] based on conversations that I've had [59:02] with Dr. Natalie Crawford who's a [59:03] fertility expert and I've had other [59:05] fertility experts on the podcast, Dr. [59:07] Tais Aliabati and they agree on several [59:11] things related to female fertility [59:12] generally in this context of nutrition [59:15] and calories and and so forth which is [59:18] if a woman is carrying a much higher [59:21] than is healthy percentage of body fat [59:24] there's a higher degree of inflammation [59:26] in the body and it would be wise to try [59:29] and bring that percentage of body fat [59:30] down somewhat or even considerably if [59:34] the goal is to get pregnant. the general [59:36] principle of if you're carrying excess [59:38] body fat, then trying to reduce that by [59:41] virtue of eating a submaintenance, not [59:44] by a ridiculous amount, but a [59:46] submaintenance caloric intake for some [59:49] period of time in a healthy way. Still [59:51] eating a nutrient-dense diet and so [59:53] forth, getting enough protein, getting [59:54] enough fiber, getting enough fruits and [59:56] vegetables and micronutrients, but [59:57] bringing that body fat percentage down, [60:00] excuse me, often can help. But as most [60:03] everybody knows, if a woman's body fat [60:05] percentage comes down too far, she may [60:08] stop menrating entirely or it could [60:10] adversely impact fertility in other [60:12] ways. So that's really a discussion that [60:14] you have to have with your OB/GYN. The [60:16] point being, you don't want to be too [60:18] lean, nor do you want to be carrying too [60:19] much excess body fat. What all the [60:22] physicians who work on either male andor [60:25] female fertility [60:27] agree on is that you want to consume a [60:30] low inflammation diet. Okay. What's a [60:32] low inflammation diet? Well, immediately [60:34] people jump to okay lots of fruits and [60:36] vegetables and you lots of fiber and you [60:39] know Mediterranean diet. Yes. Yes. And [60:42] we need to add a bit more information [60:44] here. High in micronutrient diet is [60:47] something that's often overlooked. And [60:49] in terms of reducing inflammation in the [60:52] body, I'm aware of one study that talks [60:54] about specifically what to do in [60:57] addition to what not to do because I [60:59] think we all now know too much [61:01] hyperprocessed food, you know, too much [61:04] packaged food, any food that can survive [61:06] for long periods of time on the shelf in [61:08] its near to ready eat form is considered [61:11] highly processed, right? You know, when [61:13] I talk about, you know, rice can sit for [61:15] a long time on the shelf, but it has to [61:17] be prepared, right? So, you're not [61:18] really processing it, you're preparing [61:20] it. But yes, fresh fruits and [61:22] vegetables. Yes, lean proteins like [61:24] chicken and fish. Probably some lean red [61:27] meat like beef if that's with within [61:29] your diet as well. Eating [61:30] monounsaturated fats like olive oil. I [61:32] think we all know this stuff by now. [61:34] Lentils, rice, starches, but not too [61:36] many. So, the whole idea behind this [61:38] lowinflammation diet is really also [61:41] thinking about micronutrients that are [61:43] going to be rich in fruits and [61:44] vegetables, eating quality proteins. [61:47] When I say quality proteins, it's about [61:49] high quality protein to calorie ratio. [61:52] Meaning, look at foods like lean beef, [61:54] chicken, fish, if you like shellfish, [61:58] scallops, this sort of thing. Think of [62:00] those as quality protein with all the [62:02] essential amino acids without, you know, [62:04] a high caloric load. The fruits, the [62:06] vegetables, and some of the starches [62:08] without excess fats. And if you're going [62:09] to eat fats, mostly unsaturated fats, [62:12] maybe a little bit of saturated fat from [62:14] the animal proteins. That's basically [62:16] the low inflammation diet. And I [62:18] mentioned there's one thing specifically [62:20] that has been shown in the human [62:22] literature to reduce inflammation and [62:24] that's low sugar fermented foods. Highly [62:27] overlooked, highly beneficial. This has [62:29] been shown in a beautiful study from my [62:31] colleagues Justin Sonnenberg and [62:33] Christopher uh Gardner at Stanford [62:36] University School of Medicine. people [62:38] were given either a low sugar fermented [62:41] food um sort of call to action to eat [62:44] more of those each day or increase their [62:46] fiber intake pretty marketkedly. They [62:48] did a ramp up because they need to you [62:49] need to do that kind of slowly for a few [62:51] weeks in order to get your system [62:53] acclimated to it. You don't want to go [62:54] from like no low sugar fermented foods [62:56] to tons of them. But slowly adding, you [62:58] know, a few servings a day, one serving, [63:00] two servings, you know, up to about four [63:02] servings a day, which isn't very much by [63:04] the way. you know, few spoonfuls here, [63:06] some, you know, Bulgarian yogurt there, [63:08] you know, maybe some low sugar kombucha [63:10] there, and, you know, you're getting [63:12] essentially what they quote unquote [63:13] prescribed in this diet for the [63:15] subjects. What they saw is that many [63:17] inflammatory markers were significantly [63:19] reduced in the low sugar fermented food [63:21] group. Whereas in the fiber addition [63:24] group, they found something interesting. [63:26] Some people who significantly increase [63:29] their fiber intake experienced a [63:31] reduction in inflammatory markers. [63:33] Others had an increase in inflammatory [63:35] markers. Does that mean fiber is bad? [63:37] No. It means that certain types of [63:39] high-fiber foods might cause some [63:41] inflammation in some people, not others. [63:42] And that's a important discussion going [63:44] forward. Personally, I have family [63:46] members who will take some selium husk, [63:49] like a small amount of pselium husk. [63:51] It's very inexpensive to increase fiber. [63:53] So, you could do that route, but ideally [63:55] eating fruits and vegetables plus maybe [63:57] a little bit of that for increasing [63:59] fiber is going to benefit most people [64:01] terms of colon health and reducing [64:02] inflammation. But the low sugar [64:04] fermented foods is a recommendation that [64:06] you know I've certainly adopted into my [64:08] own life. I eat Bulgarian yogurt. I eat [64:10] sauerkraut. It's you have to eat the [64:11] type that needs to be refrigerated. And [64:14] the low sugar part is important. So no, [64:16] we're not talking about beer. We're not [64:17] talking about sweetened pickles. We're [64:19] not talking about that sort of thing. [64:20] We're talking about the stuff that has [64:21] to be in the refrigerator. Natto, [64:22] kimchi, and so on. And really striving [64:24] for the low sugar variety. So low [64:26] inflammation diet. Okay, that's enough [64:29] about diet. I touched a little bit on [64:30] TRT in discussions with the other people [64:34] I mentioned earlier in this answer as [64:36] well as in the episode that I did about [64:38] male and female fertility which [64:40] admittedly is a very long episode. In [64:42] that episode I did touch on some of the [64:44] things that have some I want to be [64:47] really careful have shown some positive [64:50] impact on egg quality which is an [64:52] important um metric when trying to [64:54] conceive as well as sperm quality. I [64:56] talked about some of those metrics as [64:58] well. And those include things like [65:00] Lcarnitine, [65:02] co-enzyme Q10. Why would those be [65:05] potentially useful? And I should mention [65:08] when having discussions with now three [65:11] different fertility doctors, okay, about [65:13] male and female fertility. Okay, so [65:16] we're talking sperm and egg health and [65:19] quality. All three of them say, "Yeah, I [65:22] recommend to my patients co-enzyme Q10. [65:25] I recommend to my patients some LC [65:27] carnitine. Some fertility experts will [65:29] also recommend other things. And for [65:31] that, I'll just cue you to Natalie [65:32] Crawford's excellent book on the titled [65:35] the fertility formula as well as her [65:37] podcast episode that she did with us [65:39] where she gets into some details of some [65:40] other things that can be beneficial [65:42] because some experts will recommend [65:44] things like lowd dose melatonin at night [65:47] presumably to improve sleep uh perhaps [65:49] other things as well. Some don't. Some [65:52] will recommend DHEA, others not. So here [65:55] I'm just going to focus on the overlap [65:58] in the vin diagram as they say where [66:00] everyone says yep I recommend that to my [66:03] patients. I don't think it's necessary [66:04] for my patients but as long as they're [66:06] trying to increase their fertility their [66:08] egg quality or their sperm quality I [66:10] suggest they do it if they can afford [66:11] it. And that's Lcarnitine and co-enzyme [66:13] Q10. Both of which have been shown to [66:16] well in the case of males to improve [66:19] sperm motility. not so much count but [66:21] motility and quote unquote quality [66:23] because that's a multimetric [66:25] label quality as well as egg quality and [66:29] Lcarnitine can be taken orally as [66:31] capsules. Typically those are high [66:33] higher dosages. So those can be as high [66:35] as you know 500 milligrams or 750 [66:37] milligrams a day. You don't absorb as [66:40] much of it when you take it orally. Some [66:41] people will actually do the injectable [66:43] form of Lcarnitine. And then with [66:44] co-enzyme Q10 the dosage recommendations [66:48] vary. I'll point you to Natalie's [66:50] podcast with me. We'll put a link to [66:51] that particular segment in the show note [66:53] caption. But these are the things that [66:55] seem to help with egg quality and sperm [66:57] quality. Why? Because they seem to [67:00] indirectly, perhaps directly, but [67:02] indirectly support mitochondrial health. [67:04] And so much of what's happening in [67:06] conception and the formation of the [67:08] early embryo is about taking that [67:10] fertilized egg and creating more cells [67:12] from it. And that's highly dependent on [67:15] a number of different factors that [67:17] mitochondria are critical for. And [67:19] mitochondrial health within the early [67:22] embryo, within the egg and the and the [67:25] sperm, but within the early embryo is [67:27] crucial for the normal development to [67:30] lead to a successful pregnancy. So I [67:32] want to be really clear. I'm not saying [67:34] that the lynchpin factor in fertility is [67:36] co-enzyme Q10 or it's Lcarnitine. It's [67:39] going to be multivaried. I think the [67:41] most important thing is to set a context [67:43] for overall reproductive health. So [67:46] that's going to be bodywide keeping [67:48] inflammation relatively low through the [67:50] low inflammation diet, exercise being [67:51] critical. So yes, nutrition, sleep being [67:55] a critical one to keep inflammation low, [67:57] you know, and so on and so on and so on. [68:00] a lot of it's age dependent. There [68:02] probably is some genetic variation, but [68:04] if somebody's struggling to achieve or [68:07] maintain fertility or somebody's at the [68:09] kind of um age threshold where they're [68:11] more and more concerned about these [68:12] things, then it just stands to reason to [68:14] do more to try and support fertility. [68:16] So, if you're trying to get your [68:18] fertility in the right direction for [68:20] you, well, these things have been shown [68:23] to help. I'd like to take a quick break [68:25] and acknowledge one of our sponsors, [68:27] Element. Element is an electrolyte drink [68:29] that has everything you need and nothing [68:31] you don't. That means the electrolytes, [68:33] sodium, magnesium, and potassium, all in [68:35] the correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper [68:38] hydration is critical for brain and body [68:40] function. Even a slight degree of [68:42] dehydration, can diminish your cognitive [68:44] and physical performance. It's also [68:46] important that you get adequate [68:47] electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, [68:49] magnesium, and potassium are vital for [68:52] the functioning of all cells in your [68:53] body, especially your neurons or your [68:55] nerve cells. Drinking Element makes it [68:57] very easy to ensure that you're getting [68:59] adequate hydration and adequate [69:01] electrolytes. My days tend to start [69:03] really fast, meaning I have to jump [69:05] right into work or right into exercise. [69:07] So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I [69:09] have sufficient electrolytes, when I [69:10] first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 [69:12] to 32 ounces of water with an element [69:14] packet dissolved in it. I also drink [69:16] Element dissolved in water during any [69:18] kind of physical exercise that I'm [69:20] doing, especially on hot days when I'm [69:21] sweating a lot and losing water and [69:23] electrolytes. Element has a bunch of [69:25] great tasting flavors. In fact, I love [69:27] them all. I love the watermelon, the [69:28] raspberry, the citrus, and I really love [69:30] the lemonade flavor. So, if you'd like [69:32] to try Element, you can go to [69:34] drinkelement.com/huberman [69:36] to claim a free Element sample pack with [69:38] any purchase. Again, that's [69:40] drinkelement.com/huberman [69:42] to claim a free sample pack. Okay, next [69:45] question, please. [69:46] >> Hello, Dr. Hubberman. This is Josima [69:49] from Brazil. My question is as women [69:51] enter pmenopause, what is the actual [69:54] impact on mental health during this [69:56] stage? Is it common for women to [69:58] experience more panic attacks or panic [70:00] disorder symptoms or are these not [70:03] related to perry menopause? If they are [70:05] related, how long do these symptoms [70:07] typically last? Thank you so much. [70:10] >> Thank you, Joseada. I think that is the [70:13] pronunciation of your name and forgive [70:15] me if it's not. Thank you, Joseada, for [70:17] your question. We received a lot of [70:19] questions about pmenopause and menopause [70:22] um suggested treatments, what's new in [70:24] the literature and so on. And so I just [70:26] want to start off by saying that this [70:27] topic and set of questions deserves an [70:31] entire episode of the Hubberman Lab [70:32] podcast or indeed several. And I've been [70:35] looking for guests uh to have this [70:38] discussion with in more depth. So I want [70:40] to be very clear about that. We have [70:41] also done a few episodes that cover [70:44] pmenopause and menopause from different [70:46] perspectives. So, we'll put a link to [70:47] some of those in the show notes caption. [70:50] Just to take a step back from all of [70:51] this, um, as most people know, per [70:54] menopause menopause reflects massive [70:56] changes in hormones, in particular, [71:00] estrogen, progesterone, and testosterone [71:02] in women at a particular stage of their [71:06] life. And it can be fairly gradual or it [71:10] can be more accelerated over a shorter [71:12] uh time period. That means that the [71:15] range of symptoms that women experience [71:17] is highly variable from one to the next. [71:19] And I think this has been part of the [71:21] challenge in the literature. The other [71:23] big challenge in the literature is that [71:26] indeed there were far too few studies of [71:30] pmenopause and menopause and possible [71:32] treatments in the previous decades. You [71:35] know, we're now entering what hopefully [71:37] is a new era where there's more studies [71:40] devoted to women's health, permenopause [71:42] and menopause, but also PCOS and indeed [71:44] all the things that potentially differ [71:45] between women and men as it relates to [71:48] cancer, cancer treatments, um you know, [71:50] nutrition, etc. There are a huge number [71:52] of unanswered questions in the women's [71:55] health space that hopefully will be [71:56] resolved u in the upcoming years. also [72:00] and many people are now aware of this [72:02] one of the largest scale studies about [72:04] hormone replacement therapy for [72:06] menopause to some extent permenopause [72:08] but it was mainly focused on menopause [72:09] from some years back it's largely [72:12] general consensus now there might be a [72:14] few hold outs but many many people now [72:17] conclude that the early conclusions of [72:19] those studies were wrong meaning the [72:22] early studies concluded that hormone [72:24] replacement therapy was either dangerous [72:26] or ineffective or only mildly effective [72:29] And I think a large number of people and [72:31] this is independent of politics. This is [72:34] independent of whether or not people are [72:35] pro hormone therapy or anti hormone [72:37] therapy. They will conclude that there [72:41] does appear to be a beneficial effect of [72:44] certain hormone replacement therapies [72:46] for pmenopause and menopause if the [72:49] therapies are started early enough. [72:51] Meaning if the therapies were started [72:53] too late, there was some evidence of [72:56] some detrimental effects perhaps. But if [72:58] the therapies were started early enough [73:00] either in menopause or permenopause, [73:02] then there were some beneficial effects [73:04] observed that weren't advertised, [73:06] weren't popularized enough on the basis [73:09] of the actual data. So that's created a [73:11] landscape now where fortunately people [73:13] are re-evaluating those data, doing new [73:15] studies, right? We always need more, but [73:18] doing new studies to evaluate the best [73:20] timing for hormone therapies. And when I [73:22] say hormones, I'm deliberately being uh [73:25] broad about that. Um because we know [73:28] that estrogen, testosterone, and [73:31] progesterone and other hormones all [73:33] change during pmenopause and menopause. [73:36] And there are now different forms of [73:37] hormone replacement therapy. To be very [73:40] direct in answering this specific [73:41] question, which was, is there a [73:44] relationship between pmenopause and [73:46] menopause, the changes in hormones? [73:48] Because it's not always reduction. [73:50] Sometimes it's increases in certain [73:51] hormones because all these hormones are [73:53] have intense interplay in terms of how [73:55] they regulate themselves and each other. [73:57] Is there a relationship between that and [74:00] things like anxiety? Now the short [74:03] answer is absolutely yes. In pmenopause [74:06] and menopause when steroid hormones like [74:08] testosterone and estrogen are changing [74:10] and hormone other hormones as well of [74:12] course like progesterone and on and on. [74:14] So many hormones change during [74:16] permenopause, menopause. [74:18] Many cells are not just changing the way [74:21] that they're quote unquote behaving. [74:22] They're not their short-term [74:23] physiologies, but some cells are turning [74:26] off the expression of certain genes and [74:28] proteins and other cells are turning [74:30] them on. And so we know that many [74:33] hormones have a strong effect on [74:35] neurons, nerve cells in the circuits of [74:38] the brain, including the hypothalamus, [74:40] which regulates all sorts of things, [74:41] hunger, sleep, body temperature. Um, and [74:46] yes, it's also involved in anxiety. You [74:47] have the so-called hypothalamic [74:49] pituitary adrenal axis, which is [74:51] involved in the production of cortisol. [74:53] So the short answer is yes, yes, and [74:56] yes. When hormones change, neural [74:58] circuit activities change in the short [74:59] term, but the propensity for those [75:03] circuits to be active or hyperactive or [75:05] hypoactive, not active enough, is going [75:07] to be strong strongly regulated by [75:09] steroid hormones as well. Hormones in [75:12] particular, they're impacting hundreds [75:14] if not thousands of systems. So, I don't [75:16] throw all this out there to confuse any [75:17] of you. It's simply to say that you [75:20] should trust your experience, right? You [75:22] have to trust your experience. If you're [75:24] seeing a reduction in a particular [75:26] hormone on a blood test in permenopause [75:29] or menopause or frankly at any stage of [75:31] life that is a correlated in your [75:34] experience with an increase in anxiety, [75:36] right? Can you really tack your change [75:38] in anxiety to that hormone directly? In [75:40] some cases, yes. In many cases, no. [75:42] Because there just so many little [75:43] tributaries of mechanistic overlap here. [75:46] I think the key takeaway is this. The [75:48] early studies that concluded that [75:50] hormone replacement therapy was either [75:52] not beneficial or could be detrimental [75:54] were apparently flawed either by virtue [75:58] of the conclusion, meaning the [76:00] conclusion didn't match the data or [76:02] those studies weren't done correctly. [76:04] The therapies in many cases were started [76:05] too late, right? And it does seem that [76:08] starting the therapies at the right [76:10] these hormone therapies at the right [76:11] time and at the right dosages, not [76:13] surprisingly, is very important. So that [76:15] almost forces the conclusion that if [76:16] you're experiencing anxiety in [76:18] pmenopause menopause, well, it may not [76:20] be directly related or even indirectly [76:22] related to a change in hormones, there [76:25] is a mechanistic basis to suspect that [76:27] it could be. And therefore, you should [76:29] absolutely talk to your doctor. Any [76:31] doctor that truly cares about your [76:33] health should be willing to have a [76:34] conversation about whether or not your [76:37] levels of estrogen, perhaps even [76:39] testosterone, progesterone need [76:40] adjusting through any number of existing [76:42] therapies, many of which are very [76:44] inexpensive nowadays, by the way, in [76:46] order to bring things back to uh a place [76:49] where you're feeling less anxious, more [76:51] vital, whatever whatever symptoms you [76:53] may be struggling with that those could [76:54] be overcome. But of course, there are [76:56] other ways to approach this as well. I [76:58] will mention that on previous episodes [76:59] of the podcast where I had experts in [77:01] pmenopause and menopause on to discuss [77:04] these specific issues. There was also a [77:06] lot of discussion about the importance [77:08] of eating a low-inflammatory diet to [77:11] making sure that you get adequate sleep [77:13] and many people often say that in [77:14] parmenopause and menopause their sleep [77:16] suffers. So whether or not that needs to [77:17] be approached from the symptom level [77:19] like going after sleep specifically like [77:22] okay you're going to make certain [77:23] lifestyle changes to try and make it [77:25] easier to get to sleep but if there's [77:26] middle of the night wakings um night [77:28] sweats these kinds of things perhaps [77:30] hormone therapies are going to get more [77:32] at the foundation of those issues and [77:35] any doctor that cares about you will be [77:38] willing to have this multi-pronged [77:39] conversation. Again, this is a [77:41] absolutely critical area of women's [77:43] health and therefore human health. We [77:45] receive so many questions about it. I [77:47] will apologize again for not getting [77:49] into more depth about this, but that [77:51] really deserves having an expert guest [77:53] on the podcast to go into what's latest [77:55] in this area in terms of the research [77:57] and the clinical trials. It's not [77:59] happening fast enough, but there are new [78:01] data. So, stand by. We'll talk about it [78:04] more soon. Okay, next question. [78:08] Hello, Huberman Lab team and Andrew. My [78:11] name is Nick Ferendo. I live in North [78:13] Carolina, United States. [78:16] Me and my fiance are getting married [78:18] this October. And when planning our [78:21] outdoor wedding ceremony, [78:23] we got to thinking about whether doing [78:26] the ceremony during the sunrise hours of [78:30] the day or sunset hours of the day uh [78:33] would have a different mental effect on [78:36] our guests u because of the sunlight [78:40] being received during those two times [78:43] and didn't know if it was different or [78:46] the same. uh and would love your input. [78:50] Thank you very much. Later. [78:55] >> Well, I never predicted that I'd be [78:57] giving marriage advice on the Huberman [78:59] Lab podcast, but here we go. Nick, and [79:03] to your fiance, congratulations. [79:06] Um, super happy for you guys. And the [79:08] fact that you're thinking about sunlight [79:10] and its effect on your guests just shows [79:12] not only a compassion for your guests, [79:14] but uh that you're fully integrating [79:18] your wedding and presumably your your [79:20] life together going forward in this [79:22] incredible thing that is our circadian [79:24] rhythm. In any event, the answer here [79:26] can be pretty direct and brief, which is [79:31] I would go for the sunset wedding. And [79:34] I'll tell you why. [79:36] Otherwise, you're going to be getting [79:38] ready very very early in the morning. [79:40] And uh typically people like some time [79:42] to get ready for weddings. While I would [79:46] say about 20% of people fall into this [79:48] category that we call early birds by [79:50] virtue of chronotype, meaning they are [79:52] genetically hardwired to prefer to get [79:54] up very early and to go to sleep very [79:57] early. Most people are either night [80:01] owls. They like to get up later, you [80:02] know, after 9:00 a.m. and stay up late. [80:05] Or the majority of people prefer to get [80:07] up between 6:00 and 8:00 a.m. and go to [80:10] sleep somewhere between 10:00 p.m. and [80:12] midnight. That's just the majority of [80:14] people in the world. And people are [80:16] going to want to have time to prepare [80:18] for the wedding ceremony. They're going [80:20] to want to get up, hopefully get some [80:22] sunlight, um, you know, get get dressed [80:25] and do all those things. And it's going [80:26] to be tough for people to push early [80:28] into the day for an early ceremony, but [80:30] of course they're there to honor you [80:31] guys and they can do it. And I'm saying [80:33] all of this because it illustrates a [80:35] really important larger point, which is [80:37] that although our circadian rhythm is a [80:40] really powerful force in our energy [80:43] levels and when we like to go to sleep, [80:45] most everybody has the ability to stay [80:48] up later than we would prefer to. [80:50] meaning we can push a couple more hours [80:54] past our normal to bedtime and stay up [80:56] later, but it's very hard for people to [80:58] get into gear and be wide awake and [81:00] alert earlier than their normal wake up [81:03] time. So, you're being kind to all your [81:05] guests by putting the event in the [81:07] afternoon. I suppose the night owls will [81:10] be happiest because to them that's sort [81:12] of their, you know, it's not still their [81:14] morning, but it's kind of their early [81:15] afternoon. Uh to the people that tend to [81:18] be on a more normal chronotype schedule, [81:20] waking up between 6:00 and 8:00 a.m. and [81:22] going to bed between 10:00 and midnight. [81:24] Hopefully, they'll stay for the entire [81:25] party. I imagine you'll have a [81:26] celebration of some sort, and they'll be [81:28] able to do that just fine. They might [81:29] get to bed a little bit later than they [81:31] normally do. They'll be just fine. And [81:33] the early risers might struggle with the [81:36] party, but they'll be fine as well. Uh, [81:39] it just so happens that by time the [81:41] ceremony rolls around at sunset and I [81:43] don't know what time of year if it's [81:44] going to be in the Carolinas or or [81:46] elsewhere. So, I don't know exactly when [81:47] the sun is setting. Now, we could get [81:48] into details as to whether or not uh the [81:51] ceremony is going to be east facing or [81:53] west facing, but I don't think we need [81:55] to do that. Um, that's too down in the [81:57] weeds. Very simply, if you want to have [82:00] the most number of people alert and [82:04] rested and prepared and felt like they [82:07] had enough time to get there, the few [82:09] stragglers who are going to be late and [82:10] all of that, um, make sure everyone's in [82:12] attendance, I would go for the evening [82:14] wedding. And, uh, as a more general [82:17] point, going forward, I again wish you [82:19] congratulations and definitely get that [82:21] morning sunlight uh, as a couple if you [82:24] can. If one of you sleeps in a little [82:25] bit later, honor that, too. All right. [82:27] Chronotypes are a real thing. Some [82:29] people will argue that having aligned [82:31] chronotypes and schedules is critical [82:33] for a relationship. Some people would [82:35] argue that it's good to have slightly [82:36] asynchronous ones. Look, there are no [82:38] real studies on that. And were they to [82:41] do those experiments, and I doubt they [82:43] ever will. I think what you find is that [82:45] either can work. Uh, watching a sunrise [82:47] together is great. Watching sunsets [82:48] together is great. And watching both is [82:51] even better. Hello, my name's Kelly and [82:53] I had a question about recovering from a [82:57] kidney donation surgery [83:00] and what you can do following the [83:02] surgery to retain as much muscle mass as [83:06] possible during that recovery time. Um, [83:09] also if there's anything you would do [83:11] beforehand to increase the odds of [83:17] less loss [83:19] in that post-surgical time period. Thank [83:21] you very much. [83:24] >> Well, thank you for your question, [83:25] Kelly, and really thank you for uh the [83:29] incredible um act that you're uh that [83:34] you're asking about a kidney donation. I [83:36] mean, these things save lives. Gosh, [83:38] there aren't even words for it. I mean, [83:39] to give a kidney to save somebody's [83:41] life, what a wonderful and remarkable [83:43] thing. So, thank you so much for that. [83:45] What a beautiful example of uh humans [83:48] helping humans. [83:50] how to best go into and recover from any [83:54] surgery and in particular this one. The [83:57] short answer is go into it as fit and [84:01] rested as you possibly can. Now, life [84:04] constraints will determine what that [84:06] means for you, but it's very clear and [84:08] in particular if you're thinking about [84:11] maintaining muscle and maintaining [84:13] general fitness and speed of recovery, [84:16] that having your strength and your [84:18] cardiovascular health as good as it can [84:20] be heading into the procedure. And that [84:23] also means not exhausting yourself or [84:25] injuring yourself by overtraining is [84:28] going to be immensely beneficial. And I [84:30] can say this because I have several [84:32] friends who are surgeons that will say [84:34] to me always, you know, that the [84:35] athletes that come in, even if they're [84:37] dealing with major surgeries, even if [84:39] they're not proathletes, they're just [84:41] sort of, you know, recreational athletes [84:43] always recover faster. Why? Well, their [84:46] metabolic health is better, their [84:47] circulation is better, and yes, they [84:49] probably also are used to pushing into [84:52] challenge and coming out of surgery um [84:53] can be challenging. I've had surgeries [84:55] before and I can tell you that it's [84:57] always striking to me how absolutely [85:01] dreadful I would feel coming out of it. [85:03] You know, 2 3 days I was like, "Oh my [85:06] god, I don't know how I'm ever" and then [85:08] 5 days later like, "Wow, I can't believe [85:10] how quickly I've healed." And I don't [85:12] consider myself a, you know, any kind of [85:14] serious athlete. I mean, I'm athletic. I [85:17] exercise and so forth. Um, those [85:18] surgeries were when I was younger from [85:20] broken bones and things like that. So, [85:22] they weren't nearly as intense and [85:24] invasive as as what you're asking about [85:26] here. But have your cardiovascular [85:28] fitness um in place if you have time [85:31] before this surgery. So great time to do [85:34] and I imagine you might be doing any [85:35] number of things that I'm about to [85:37] describe but perhaps more as well but as [85:39] we talked about earlier at least one [85:41] long slow distance you know of about 45 [85:43] minutes to an hour zone two three-ish [85:46] cardio per week um some highintensity [85:49] interval training at least once per week [85:51] maybe maybe twice and something more [85:52] moderate in the middle kind of moderate [85:55] intensity of about 30 minutes or so and [85:57] some strength training for both the [85:59] lower body and the upper body pro most [86:01] probably on days other than the [86:03] cardiovascular training, two to three [86:05] days per week. And again, not [86:07] overtraining, right? Not pushing [86:09] yourself to try and get so fit that [86:11] you're exhausted because you don't want [86:12] to go into a surgery exhausted. [86:15] But you do want to go in getting [86:17] adequate sleep. It's normal the night [86:19] before a big surgery to perhaps not get [86:22] as great sleep as you normally do. [86:24] That's normal. I think most surgeons [86:25] will attest to the fact that while not [86:27] ideal, that doesn't uh, you know, [86:29] prohibit a really great recovery either. [86:32] It's just normal kind of pre-surgery [86:34] anxiety is is is common. But in the days [86:38] and weeks before the surgery, being as [86:39] rested as possible, and here's the big [86:41] one, both going into and out of surgery. [86:43] And I know some of you are going to go, [86:44] "Ah, here he is again with the sunlight [86:46] thing." I will tell you based on a lot [86:48] of experience visiting people in the [86:50] hospital which was just adjacent to my [86:52] lab at Stanford. These are people who [86:54] are dealing with everything from cancer [86:55] to surgery [86:57] patients of different ages. I actually [86:58] was uh I sat in on I didn't participate [87:02] of course I'm not a surgeon uh on a [87:04] brain surgery recently up at UCSF and [87:06] I'll tell you in talking with the brain [87:08] surgeons that when patients get and stay [87:13] on a as normal as possible circadian [87:16] rhythm coming out of surgery it helps [87:18] immensely. There are even data showing [87:19] that recovery from surgery and other [87:21] illness in the hospital is significantly [87:24] improved if the patient is next to a [87:26] window where they get some natural [87:27] light. If you can't do that, really [87:29] think about eye mask at night so that [87:31] you can get it as dark as possible. It's [87:33] really hard in some hospitals to get it [87:35] really dark because there's and quiet [87:37] because there's a lot of noise from the [87:39] equipment and people are coming in for [87:40] the checks all night and you know you [87:42] have the night staff. Great eye mask for [87:45] sleeping at night. Great earplugs to [87:48] keep it as quiet as possible so you can [87:50] sleep on as normal as is possible for [87:54] you schedule. If you can be positioned [87:55] next to a window. I think if you're [87:56] giving a kidney, they should put you [87:58] next to a window and they should put you [88:00] next to an east facing window. I don't [88:01] know what hospital you're at. This [88:03] person is giving a kidney. They deserve [88:04] to be near a east facing window. Uh darn [88:07] it, uh for their recovery and that will [88:10] allow you to get on and stay on a normal [88:13] circadian schedule or even west facing [88:15] as we talked about earlier, get some [88:16] ambient light in the early part of the [88:18] day and get that outdoor time, some [88:20] fresh air. This is going to massively [88:24] help your overall state. It's going to [88:28] tremendously help your sleep, which is [88:29] going to tremendously help reduce the [88:31] inflammation postsurgically. It's going [88:33] to accelerate your healing and on and [88:35] on. This circadian rhythm stuff, folks, [88:38] is real. It is absolutely real and it is [88:41] foundational to our health. Then in [88:43] terms of what you can do to just get [88:47] back the muscle that you had or maintain [88:49] it through this period, if you have been [88:51] exercising and doing strength training [88:53] and perhaps hypertrophy and strength [88:55] training for some period of time going [88:56] into this, you will be amazed at how [88:59] quickly an atrophied limb or an overall [89:02] reduction in muscle and strength comes [89:04] back. A lot of the quote unquote muscle [89:06] memory that we talk about is skill-based [89:08] muscle memory. I haven't write ridden a [89:10] bike in years, but I can still do it. [89:11] Muscle memory. But there's the other [89:13] kind of muscle memory, which is the [89:14] nerve to muscle, the motor neuron to [89:18] muscle, which controls muscular [89:19] contractions, quote unquote memory, [89:21] which is the reestablishment of [89:25] strength, the reestablishment of [89:28] hypertrophy when you had it prior. So, [89:31] regaining strength and and muscle size [89:34] is far easier than gaining it for the [89:37] first time. with the one exception being [89:38] that when you're young, if like you're [89:40] in your late teens, early 20s, it's [89:43] pretty easy to gain muscle fast when you [89:45] first start uh exercising, but that [89:47] tapers off pretty quickly after about a [89:49] year or so. And then you have to fight [89:50] for every bit of it. And as you get [89:51] older, it's harder to to get stronger [89:53] and to build muscle, but you can do it. [89:55] Now, that's the conventional stuff. And [89:58] even that doesn't sound that [89:59] conventional. I'm guessing that a lot of [90:01] doctors probably are not talking about [90:03] this, but that's not because they don't [90:04] talk about it. It's just it's hard to [90:06] prescribe to a lot of patients. And in [90:08] particular, and here I'm calling out the [90:10] hospitals, not Stanford Hospital, but [90:12] other hospitals. They treat people, they [90:16] want them to heal, they want to free up [90:18] beds, they want to send them home, but [90:21] the environment in the hospital is not [90:23] circadian friendly to the patients or [90:25] the staff. It's just not. It's not the [90:27] nature of how hospitals work. And I'm [90:28] not just talking about the emergency [90:30] rooms. It's just not. you know, the [90:32] bright lights, the noises in the middle [90:34] of the night and the lack of, you know, [90:37] uh, natural daylight coming through and [90:38] it has a negative impact. It really [90:40] does, uh, at multiple levels. So, you [90:42] have to kind of push back on on the [90:44] system in order to try and, uh, get the [90:46] best possible circadian, [90:49] if you will. Once again, Kelly, thank [90:51] you ever so much. You're a godsend for [90:54] somebody out there, and we need more [90:56] people like you. Okay, before our last [90:59] question, I just want to put a note out [91:01] to Cody Morrison who asked a great [91:04] question about careers in science. First [91:06] of all, Cody, good luck on your PhD [91:09] defense. Let me know how it goes. [91:11] Second, I'm happy to talk about postocs [91:13] with you. I don't know if you're in [91:15] neuroscience or another field. I'm not [91:17] currently taking postocs in my lab, but [91:19] I've had several including several who [91:21] have laboratories of their own now and [91:24] graduate students who now have [91:25] laboratories of their own as professors. [91:27] So even though the landscape has [91:29] changed, the funding and other [91:31] landscapes have changed since I started [91:33] uh my research lab. I have some things [91:35] that perhaps will be of interest to you [91:36] that we can discuss. So I'll be reaching [91:38] out directly to you. And the only reason [91:40] I didn't take your question publicly is [91:41] because I think that most people [91:43] listening are probably not in the [91:45] research science track, but also because [91:47] I'd like to give all your questions uh [91:49] adequate time. And obviously I have a [91:53] soft spot for anyone who's seriously [91:55] considering going into research science [91:57] and would love to be of help in any way [91:59] that I can. All right, final question [92:02] for today. We'll do more in the future. [92:05] >> Hello, Mr. Andrew Heberman. My name is [92:07] Kevin and my question is how does one [92:10] find what they are truly passionate [92:12] about? Because anyone that follows you [92:16] and what you do can safely assume that [92:19] you're passionate about health science [92:21] and teaching the community about those [92:24] things. [92:25] And as someone who just graduated from [92:29] college and is finding themsself in the [92:32] world and I'm sure I can speak for [92:34] millions of other people. I was [92:36] wondering if there was any sciencebacked [92:38] evidence of being able to find what [92:41] someone is really truly passionate [92:43] about. [92:44] >> Kevin, thank you so much for your [92:46] question. This is a vital question in [92:50] our lives regardless of age. Oh, and [92:53] congratulations on graduating college. [92:55] That's no small feat. I know people have [92:57] mixed feelings nowadays about the value [92:59] of degrees, etc. I, you know, and here [93:01] I'm heavily biased. I'm a university [93:03] professor. Um, and I'm, you know, super [93:06] enthusiastic about learning and teaching [93:08] and all the rest, but I I still think [93:10] for many, not all, it it's a wonderful [93:13] choice and and it's no small thing to [93:15] finish uh a degree. So, congratulations [93:17] to you and to your family. Finding your [93:20] passion, that's a big question. It's [93:22] actually one that I touch on in the [93:24] final chapter of my book, among other [93:26] things in that chapter. And that's not a [93:28] plug for the book. Um, it's just simply [93:30] to say that I go into this in in some [93:32] detail beyond what I'm going to offer [93:34] here, just for sake of time. I'll do my [93:36] best to give you and anyone else [93:39] listening to this what I think are the [93:41] key things regardless of age. [93:45] First of all, [93:47] if you don't know what your passion is, [93:51] and even if you think you might, even if [93:53] you are absolutely sure you do, it is [93:57] absolutely critical that if you want to [93:59] be successful, that you continue to be [94:01] structured about your daily life. Now, I [94:04] don't mean overoptimization, [94:06] doing every single health protocol. [94:08] That's not what I'm talking about. What [94:09] I'm talking about is you need to have a [94:12] purpose each day and waking up even if [94:14] it's not the thing. It doesn't feel like [94:16] the thing. So I think it's very [94:18] important if you're a student to focus [94:20] on your studies. If you're able to do [94:21] that and not work, more power to you. [94:23] Many people have to do that and work. If [94:25] you're working a job, no matter how far [94:28] from where you would like to be [94:30] eventually internally, you know, if it's [94:33] the completely wrong career for you, [94:36] until you start to feel something [94:38] pulling you or even just tilting you in [94:40] a slightly different direction, it is [94:42] vitally important to continue to take [94:45] care of yourself, to try and get the [94:47] sleep that you can, to get your morning [94:48] sunlight, to get some exercise. Do those [94:50] things. Doesn't matter if you're a store [94:52] clerk, you're selling shoes. I mean, [94:55] long before I became a scientist, I [94:57] mean, I worked in skateboard shops. I [94:58] sold shoes. I assembled um uh radio [95:03] flyer wagons and toys at a toy store. Um [95:07] I mean, I worked in a bakery. I had a [95:09] paper route. I mowed lawns. I did all [95:11] those things. Um I can't say that I [95:13] loved all those jobs. Some of them I [95:14] liked more than others. Some of them [95:16] paid barely anything. Some of them paid [95:19] a little better. But it's just so [95:21] important to to stay busy and to [95:23] continue to work and work on yourself. [95:25] And this isn't just theory, right? [95:26] You're you're cultivating the skills [95:28] that in some way you're going to apply [95:31] to your passion once you find it. Now, [95:33] how do you find the passion? The way you [95:35] find the passion can be best summarized. [95:37] Not to sound uh mystical here, it sounds [95:40] a little bit like a riddle, but you know [95:42] the great Joe Strummer from the Clash [95:44] who in my opinion started the better [95:47] band, the Meascaleros later, which [95:48] wasn't punk rock. It's not I don't even [95:51] know if it's rock and roll. It's just [95:52] music. Amazing. He created three [95:54] masterpieces later in his life. You [95:56] know, he had this saying which was it [95:58] was literally called Strummer's law, [96:00] which is no input, no output. You need [96:04] to be interfacing with the world in [96:06] order to have ideas and to discover what [96:08] your passion is. You know, the other [96:09] day, um, because I had a bunch of just [96:11] kind of wrote things to do. I had to [96:13] handle a bunch of stuff that could be [96:14] done kind of mindlessly, but it had to [96:15] be done. I was listening to a lecture on [96:20] modern art history. I just decided to [96:22] put that in modern art history [96:24] documentary into YouTube. Just saw what [96:26] came up and I discovered two artists [96:28] that just completely blew my mind. And I [96:31] love art. I love modern art. I hadn't [96:33] really gone down this rabbit hole of [96:36] these two particular artists and it [96:38] doesn't really matter who they are or [96:39] what they did but in that listening I [96:42] had a couple of ideas about things [96:44] related to the visual system that I [96:46] worked on years ago and some interest [96:48] that I have in eye health as it relates [96:51] to some of this emerging peptide science [96:54] field. Okay, that's the way the brain [96:57] works. It's taking different nodes of [97:01] interest and combining them and that's [97:02] what your original contribution to the [97:04] world whatever it happens to be in [97:06] whether it's in exercise science or [97:08] finance or you're a high school teacher [97:10] those things are going to converge in [97:12] the unique version that is you. Now the [97:15] only way that you can find your passion [97:18] is to keep an active interest in the [97:21] world. That also means not getting [97:23] pulled into other people's rabbit holes. [97:25] You need to avoid two things critically. [97:27] These are the don'ts. Avoid drama, [97:30] especially getting pulled into it, and [97:31] avoid numbing out. Anything that [97:34] activates you, gets you angry. Okay, [97:36] that might be something that could turn [97:38] into a sense of justice and advocacy. [97:40] Great. If that's your path, okay, maybe [97:43] you go into public policy or something [97:45] of that sort or into advocacy for [97:48] animals or the world or certain group of [97:50] people. Great. But you have to be very [97:52] careful that you're not getting pulled [97:54] into meaningless dramas that you're not [97:56] also numbing out because a lot of what's [97:59] out there in the world is designed to do [98:00] one or two of those things. So stay [98:02] structured in your life. Do some job [98:05] work. This is critical. I also think at [98:09] a certain age for some people earlier [98:11] than others because they have to earning [98:13] your own money just feels good. Even if [98:15] it's not a lot, just earning your own [98:17] money, putting in savings, maybe [98:18] spending some of it, putting into [98:20] investment account, that kind of thing, [98:21] feels really good. You're building [98:23] something. [98:25] That algorithm, that underlying [98:27] operation of doing something, showing [98:29] up, trying to be good at it, maybe even [98:32] great at it, even though it's not your [98:33] calling, sets the stage. It prepares you [98:36] for when you get kind of pulled towards [98:38] something. Oh, I'm really interested [98:39] also in this aspect of fitness or this [98:42] aspect of film making. And eventually [98:44] you'll pick your trajectory. And the key [98:47] thing is to remember that's not your [98:48] final trajectory. You're heading off in [98:50] a vector that will take you someplace [98:53] that will take you someplace else [98:54] someplace else. You may have one career. [98:56] You may have several in your lifetime. [98:58] But no input, no output. Remain curious [99:01] and become good and ideally great at [99:05] listening to your own inner compass or I [99:08] like to think about it antenni. [99:09] Occasionally I see something I'm just [99:10] like, "Wow, this is I don't know why [99:13] it's interesting and I don't care." [99:14] You're inspired by it. Some element of [99:16] it gets into your consciousness and you [99:18] move forward with that. I actually have [99:20] a notebook. This is something I've done [99:22] um since my teens. Early in my academic [99:24] career, I had a a list. I update that [99:27] list and I have names of different [99:31] people. Some were from the world of [99:34] science, some from health and fitness, [99:36] some from art, some from music. I'm not [99:38] a musician. I have zero minus an [99:40] infinity musical talent, but I love [99:42] music as a consumer. I just really enjoy [99:44] being a consumer of it. These are people [99:46] whose kind of careers or what they did [99:49] really impressed me. They resonated with [99:51] me. That's that's the thing because I [99:53] mean a lot of people impressed me, but [99:55] it resonated with me. And over the [99:56] years, I would cross some out and add [99:58] some in. And in many ways, the career [100:00] arc that I've taken, the passion arc or [100:03] passions plural arc that I've taken is a [100:06] reflection of all of that, plus my own [100:07] unique experience. [100:09] By the way, this was long before [100:10] podcasts or even heard about personal [100:12] development or any of that. [100:15] Get in touch with what moves you, what [100:17] wakes you up, what kind of gives you a [100:19] charge in your body that's not [100:20] meaningless drama. And also avoid [100:23] numbing out. And here's the other piece. [100:26] If you're going to go down a particular [100:27] path, this is so critical. If you're [100:30] going to go down a certain path, don't [100:32] try and bring your unique spin into it [100:35] too early. Every career path, whether [100:37] it's biological sciences or psychology [100:39] or exercise physiology or finance, [100:42] there's a chop wood carry water phase of [100:44] that where you have to develop the [100:46] competency [100:48] and go from unskilled to skilled and [100:50] hopefully from skilled to mastery in [100:52] that thing. And first of all, no one [100:55] wants to work with a person that's [100:56] trying to bring their own unique spin to [100:58] the thing that they barely understand [101:00] too early. Okay? You have to get your [101:03] chops in something. So you have to [101:05] apprentice yourself to something. And [101:07] that can be very difficult for people [101:09] who have a sense of self that they're a [101:11] little different. They don't want to do [101:12] things the way everyone else does. They [101:14] need to see themselves, their unique [101:15] gift in the thing. And I'll tell you [101:17] what, you will be able to do that and [101:19] you can transform an entire field. You [101:21] will literally change the game of what [101:24] you do. But you got to get the core [101:26] mechanics and the basics first. You [101:28] don't get to come in there and be like, [101:29] I'm me and I'm going to change the game. [101:31] No, it's chop wood, carry water. So [101:33] that's like, you know, [101:36] dribble, shoot, guard, pass, like you [101:39] know, basketball, whatever. Whatever [101:40] your [101:42] at that time vocation turns out to be, [101:44] you have to work through the core [101:46] mechanics of that. You have to see the [101:48] things you're proficient at, the things [101:49] that come naturally. And then of course [101:50] there going to be things that are much [101:51] harder for you and you're going to have [101:53] to overcome those to be in that field. [101:55] And this can be a tough pill for a lot [101:58] of people to swallow. But if you can [101:59] accept that you're going to apprentice [102:01] yourself to this thing for a short while [102:03] knowing that it's not or a long while [102:05] knowing that it's not your final [102:06] destination and that you'll eventually [102:08] be able to bring in some probably not [102:11] all but some of your unique gifts to [102:13] that craft. And that's where your unique [102:16] contribution is going to come through. [102:18] So, what I'm describing here are a [102:20] number of different tributaries that all [102:22] start with you that eventually converge [102:24] in your unique gift to your passion. But [102:27] in the meantime, stay structured. Take [102:29] care of yourself. Avoid meaningless [102:32] drama. Don't numb out. Try different [102:35] things. Develop a sense of taste. What [102:37] moves you toward or away from things? [102:39] Learn yum yuck me. Like if you see [102:42] something or like something in a given [102:43] area of whatever any vocation like yes I [102:46] love that or no I definitely don't like [102:48] that or meh there can be some mess and [102:51] some yums but the uh no that's not going [102:54] to work but with that said once you take [102:56] on something you decide to do it there [102:58] going to be some things that are hard [103:00] confuse that for yuck it just means you [103:02] haven't developed the skill set yet and [103:04] you're going to have to embrace and [103:06] tackle certain things that are hard for [103:07] you have to chop wood carry water for a [103:09] while but once you go from unskilled to [103:12] skilled and you're starting to [103:13] transition from skilled to mastery. And [103:15] certainly once you've developed mastery [103:16] in an area, then you can bring together [103:19] or include some of your unique [103:21] experience and do something truly [103:22] unique, truly exciting and transform [103:24] your field, likely transform the world [103:26] because in some small or large way, [103:27] you're going to transform the world. So [103:30] that's the recipe for finding your [103:31] passion. It's really about being you, [103:33] but plugging yourself into some sort of [103:36] system long enough to get really good at [103:38] something so that then you can put your [103:40] stamp on it. Worked for me. All right, [103:42] everyone. That closes out our Huberman [103:44] Lab podcast Q&A session. I really [103:47] appreciate all of you joining. Extra [103:49] special thanks to those of you that [103:51] called in with questions. And again, if [103:52] your question wasn't selected for today, [103:54] there's still a chance it will be [103:56] selected for a future Q&A session of the [103:58] Huberman Lab podcast. And of course to [104:01] all of you the question askers and all [104:02] of you listening. Thank you for your [104:04] interest in science.