Galante Targets Wildlife Conservation Flaws Before Shark Special
PowerfulJRE
Scarcity of grant funding forces wildlife biologists into destructive institutional competition rather than direct conservation, according to adventurer Forrest Galante.
## Background
Joe Rogan hosted this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience (published by PowerfulJRE) on YouTube on July 28, 2026. The episode features international wildlife adventurer, conservationist, and author Forrest Galante, who discusses his upcoming Discovery Channel Shark Week special, "Alien Sharks: Untamed America."
## TL;DR
Forrest Galante and Joe Rogan explore a wide range of wildlife, conservation, and human history topics, ranging from rare animal genetics and historical animal myths to high-stakes field research encounters. They dive into the intelligence of marine mammals, the realities of wildlife survival, high-altitude training, and the origins of animal-related hoaxes. Galante also critiques systemic flaws in academic conservation funding while sharing personal field experiences with apex predators like crocodiles and polar bears.
## Atmosphere & style
relaxed, wide-ranging, and intensely curious tone, blending casual comedy banter with high-energy storytelling. Rogan's open-ended inquisitiveness complements Galante's enthusiastic, unfiltered field expertise, creating a dynamic that feels like a late-night conversation between two passionate outdoorsmen. The mood shifts effortlessly from lighthearted skepticism over internet hoaxes to serious reflections on nature, survival, and the psychological impact of modern life.
## Key takeaways
- [01:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=114s) Orcas possess complex brain structures, distinct pod cultures, and localized dialects that completely prevent cross-pod communication.
- [07:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=479s) Extreme natural conditions and long ocean voyages served as natural selection filters, concentrating specific traits for physical durability in Pacific Island populations.
- [10:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=614s) Humanity's main evolutionary advantage is collective intellectual sharing, enabling physically weaker humans to systematically defeat apex predators.
- [20:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1233s) The massive Vantara sanctuary in India provides advanced medical care, including hydrotherapy jacuzzis, to treat rescued working elephants suffering from pavement-induced joint damage.
- [26:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1565s) Historical myths like the Cyclops likely originated from ancient humans misinterpreting central nasal cavities in fossilized elephant skulls.
- [57:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3423s) AI-generated wildlife media is becoming increasingly convincing, making it harder for audiences to spot fabricated animal behavior hoaxes.
- [01:01:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3702s) Polar bears display active predatory behavior toward humans, contrasting sharply with grizzly bear attacks which are typically territorial or defensive.
- [01:13:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4418s) Interspecies medical and biological research in the mid-20th century featured controversial projects, including CIA-funded LSD experimentation and cyborg insect development.
- [01:44:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6257s) Prehistoric short-faced bears were massive apex animals whose formidable size and hunting prowess likely delayed human migration across the Bering Land Bridge.
- [02:02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7323s) Philanthropic initiatives can produce unintended ecological disasters, such as anti-malaria nets being repurposed for fishing and destroying local aquatic food chains.
- [02:23:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8615s) Insular gigantism in isolated environments can cause extreme evolutionary physical adaptations, as seen in Okavango Delta lion prides that grew larger to hunt Cape buffalo.
- [02:38:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9532s) The competitive hunt for academic research grants causes scientists to split single species into multiple unnecessary subspecies, undermining unified conservation effort.
- [02:43:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9810s) Effective conservation should prioritize actionable solutions over complex academic terminology, focusing strictly on measurable population increases in natural habitats.
- [02:50:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10222s) Engaging in wilderness survival activities and direct nature exposure significantly alleviates modern anxiety and depression by demanding total environmental focus.
## Detailed walkthrough
Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of Part 1 of the transcript:
[00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1s) Melanistic Mountain Lions, Jaguars, and the Quest for the Rare
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante open the conversation discussing a trail camera photo Rogan sent Galante depicting a potential black panther. Galante clears up the persistent rumor by stating that a melanistic (black) mountain lion (*puma*) has never been scientifically documented—there are zero confirmed records of one being hit by a car, born in captivity, or observed in the wild. Despite this, rumors constantly surface, including from a friend of Galante in Florida who swears he spotted a black mountain lion in his backyard.
Galante clarifies that the photo Rogan sent—which resurfaces every three years or so on the internet—is a genuine trail camera shot, but it depicts either a melanistic jaguar or a black leopard, both of which naturally exhibit melanism. Look closely at the coat, and you can still see the subtle rosette patterns underneath the black fur. Rogan expresses disappointment that it isn't a mountain lion, leading the two to discuss human psychology and how people naturally crave the rare and unusual. If all mountain lions were black, people would be obsessing over a rare tan one instead.
- **Melanistic Puma Status:** Zero confirmed instances in history (never in captivity, never hit by a car, never documented by science).
- **Photo Identification:** Features a black jaguar or leopard; faint rosettes remain visible beneath the black fur.
---
[01:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=114s) Bigfoots vs. Orcas: Dialects, Diets, and Brain Power
The discussion on rarity transitions to Bigfoot, with Rogan noting that humans over-mythologize creatures like Bigfoot when existing animals are far more fascinating. Galante agrees, stating that gorillas and especially orcas are significantly more interesting than Bigfoot. Orcas possess intricate brain structures and distinct cultural dialects, to the point where different pods cannot even communicate with one another or share the same specialized diets.
```
"It's the same as if you or I went to India or Africa. It's like we kind of communicate. We don't eat the same food. We look different. And yet to us an orca is an orca..."
— Forrest Galante
```
Galante recounts a personal story from around three years prior in Baja, Mexico. While cruising on a small *panga* (fishing boat), his group spotted a transient pod of orcas—a population known for hunting seals and sea lions rather than rays or fish. Deciding to jump in the water ahead of them, Galante and his buddy Mike were approached by the cows and calves while the massive dominant bull kept his distance. The cows circled them twice, staring at them with big eyeballs from a close distance before deciding the humans were boring and swimming away. Rogan marvels at how wild, highly intelligent marine mammals with immense brainpower almost never attack or kill humans in the wild, reserving that aggression almost exclusively for captivity.
- **Orca Differences:** Distinct pod cultures, specialized diets, and non-overlapping dialects/languages.
- **Baja Experience:** Galante swam with a transient (mammal-eating) pod from a *panga* boat; cows and calves inspected them up close before moving on.
---
[03:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=210s) Exploding Sunfish and Rugby's "Run Nation"
Rogan brings up a newly filmed video showing an orca headbutting an ocean sunfish (*Mola mola*) so violently that the fish literally disintegrates on impact. Galante explains that this newly documented behavior has emerged over the last six months; orcas appear to be hitting these massive, 600-pound gooey sunfish at immense speeds, exploding them seemingly out of sheer boredom or as a game. Galante humorously compares these orcas to "a redneck that wants to hit a turtle on the road."
This leads Rogan to bring up "Run Nation" (RNC), a viral internet activity where men sprint directly at each other full-blast and collide head-on. Galante reveals he is a massive fan of the videos because of his background playing rugby. He explains that it is essentially an Oklahoma drill adapted for rugby players. Rogan laughs as they watch clips of participants colliding until both go unconscious, joking that he would love to see those guys test themselves against NFL linebackers. However, Rogan cautions against the extreme danger of severe brain damage.
- **Sunfish Incident:** Orcas observed hitting 600 lb *Mola mola* at speeds high enough to shatter them on impact.
- **Run Nation (RNC):** High-impact collision activity stemming from rugby drills, featuring full-sprint head-on tackles.
---
[05:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=334s) Brain Trauma, Rugby Culture, and the APOE4 Gene
Galante reveals that he grew up in Zimbabwe, where Southern African rugby culture is as intense and pervasive as high school football in the Deep South. Though he still plays occasionally, a single match now sidelines him for weeks. Despite playing for years, he has only suffered one official concussion and has never had his brain formally scanned. Rogan warns him about subconcussive trauma—repetitive impacts that don't knock a person unconscious but still cause micro-damage and lead to Chronic Traumatic Encephalopathy (CTE). Rogan notes that even soccer players develop CTE simply from repeatedly heading the ball.
Rogan explains that CTE susceptibility depends on impact frequency, impact type, and genetic factors, such as carrying the **APOE4** gene variant, which makes certain individuals far more vulnerable to long-term brain injury. He adds that trauma isn't limited to head strikes or combat sports; body hits that rattle the frame or repeated physical stress—like riding jet skis or heavy headbanging at concerts—can lead to legitimate, debilitating brain damage over time.
- **Galante's Rugby Background:** Raised in Zimbabwe's intense rugby culture; currently plays intermittently due to recovery time.
- **CTE Dynamics:** Caused by subconcussive impacts (including heading soccer balls, riding jet skis, or headbanging); heightened by the **APOE4** gene.
---
[07:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=479s) Pacific Island Warriors and Human Natural Selection
The conversation pivots to the physical toughness of Pacific Islanders who dominate sports like rugby league. Rogan highlights historic heavyweight boxer David Tua—a built-like-a-tank islander who notoriously knocked out John Ruiz in the first round in under 30 seconds with a devastating left hook—alongside legendary kickboxer and MMA fighter Mark Hunt.
Galante and Rogan discuss how island populations underwent brutal natural selection. Only the most robust, physically capable humans could survive long ocean voyages in tiny canoes across the Pacific to colonize remote islands. Galante points out that this same evolutionary pressure applied to Vikings colonizing Iceland (explaining their dominance in Strongman competitions) and African Americans in North America. Galante emphasizes that as a wildlife biologist, it is obvious that humans are subjected to the exact same evolutionary rules of natural selection as animals, even if society likes to imagine humans are above nature.
- **Featured Athletes:** David Tua (heavyweight boxer known for his 30-second KO of John Ruiz) and Mark Hunt (heavyweight kickboxer/MMA fighter).
- **Evolutionary Theory:** Extreme environments and ocean voyages acted as natural selection filters, concentrating traits for high physical durability in specific populations (e.g., Samoans, Icelanders/Vikings).
---
[10:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=614s) Technology, Brains over Brawn, and the Reality Show of Earth
Rogan points out that humanity's true evolutionary advantage is the ability to transfer intellectual breakthroughs to other individuals regardless of their physical genetics. A physically weak person can use a rifle with a scope to kill a 1,200-pound Kodiak brown bear from a ridge because human energy went into developing tool use rather than raw physical mass. Galante agrees, stating that an alien visiting Earth would view humans as an incredibly strange, parasitic species that has manipulated the entire planet while other animals simply survive.
The two joke about how extraterrestrials observing Earth would treat us like a cosmic reality show. Galante references a classic *South Park* episode where Earth is literally an interstellar reality TV show where species are pitted against each other for entertainment. Rogan notes that modern humans live in a similar state of constant distraction, glued to social media and news cycles to see what wild event will happen next. While doom-scrolling short videos wrecks attention spans and offers empty dopamine hits, both note that the parallel rise of long-form podcasts proves people still crave deep, meaningful engagement.
- **Human Evolutionary Advantage:** Shared technology allows individuals without peak physical genetics to dominate top predators.
- **Media & Attention:** The paradox between short-form social media "brain rot" and the massive popularity of long-form podcasts.
[14:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=847s) Social Media Algorithms and the Absurdity of Fake Bigfoot Content
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante open by chatting about how curated their social media algorithms have gotten lately, delivering fascinating clips—interspersed with the occasional completely absurd post. Joe notes that Forrest recently sent him a hilarious, obviously fake Bigfoot video. Forrest laughs, recalling how the post claimed a man had "raised a baby Bigfoot in secrecy for 10 years." Both marvel at how low-quality the image was—looking like a terrible, blurry AI-generated Polaroid—yet the comment section contained hundreds of people genuinely believing it.
Joe reminisces about his 2013 sci-fi show *Joe Rogan Questions Everything*, where he and Duncan Trussell went into the Pacific Northwest woods to hunt for Bigfoot alongside die-hard believers. He jokingly observes that when you go Bigfoot hunting, you never see Black people; it is exclusively "white guys out in the woods staring at shadows," trying to make something out of nothing. While Joe acknowledges that the myth itself has deep roots—with dozens of Native American tribes having distinct names for legendary hominids—he pokes fun at the eccentric subculture surrounding it today.
- In Native American folklore, there are over 50 different distinct regional names for Bigfoot-like creatures.
- Joe recalls his experiences filming *Joe Rogan Questions Everything* in the Pacific Northwest in the early 2010s.
---
[15:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=958s) The "Dead Bigfoot" Cake and Gigantopithecus
The conversation turns to a viral social media clip showing a man posing right next to a giant, hairy "dead Bigfoot" body. Joe points out how revolting it would smell if it were real, while Forrest notes the bizarre detail that the man in the video—a shirtless guy in overalls who happens to be in great physical shape—previously appeared on *Your Mom's House* podcast years ago as a dog trainer. As they watch the video unfold, the man uses a hand saw to cut directly into the creature, revealing that the entire "dead Bigfoot" is actually a giant baked cake.
Transitioning from hoaxes to actual natural history, Joe and Forrest discuss *Gigantopithecus*. Joe brings up recent scientific debates over whether the massive prehistoric ape was truly bipedal. While many early popular theories assumed it walked upright like a Sasquatch, newer biological research suggests it was more likely quadrupedal, moving much like a giant orangutan. Forrest notes how difficult it is to know for certain given how scarce the fossil record is, as paleontologists have primarily only discovered jawbones and teeth.
---
[17:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1068s) Elephant Rescues in India and Vantara Sanctuary
Forrest shares details from a trip to India, where he was working alongside **Vantara**, the world's largest wildlife rescue and rehabilitation center. Founded and privately funded by Indian billionaire Anant Ambani, the facility is so massive that Forrest remarks it makes the San Diego Zoo look like a roadside attraction. While responding to emergency calls, Forrest's team rescued an elephant that had been struck by a car and suffered a severely injured leg.
Unable to put weight on its damaged limb, the elephant adapted by placing its trunk firmly on the ground, using it as a literal fourth leg to walk and support its massive head and body weight. Forrest describes watching this maneuver as both heartbreaking and awe-inspiring, showcasing the incredible intelligence and adaptability of elephants when dealing with severe physical trauma.
- **Vantara** is a massive, state-of-the-art animal hospital and sanctuary located in Gujarat, India, established by Anant Ambani.
- Elephants use their trunks as a fifth appendage or stabilizing limb when compensating for a broken or non-functional leg.
---
[20:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1233s) Mahouts, Hydrotherapy, and the Physical Toll on Working Elephants
Explaining the logistics of elephant rescue, Forrest highlights another project involving a captive elephant named Long Toy, who was born with splay legs and suffered further joint damage after years of heavy timber logging. In traditional Indian culture, elephants are cared for by *mahoots* (handlers) who live alongside them for their entire lives. While mahouts often deeply love their animals, decades of heavy labor take a severe physical toll. When Vantara rescues an elephant, they also employ the mahouts full-time, relocating them to modern living quarters so they can continue caring for their animals without forcing them to work.
Joe asks how veterinarians treat severe leg injuries in such massive animals. Forrest explains that full plaster casts are rarely feasible, so the sanctuary relies heavily on hydrotherapy and pain management. Vantara constructed a massive, building-sized hydrotherapy jacuzzi for elephants, allowing arthritic and injured animals to float and move freely without any gravitational weight on their joints.
- Working elephants often suffer severe joint deformities, bedsores, and hip issues not just from carrying heavy loads, but from the relentless impact of walking on hard pavement and concrete.
- Anatomically, elephants walk on the tips of their toes rather than flat feet, making hard surfaces exceptionally damaging over time.
---
[25:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1528s) The Explorers Club, Four-Tusked Elephants, and Genetic Deformities
The discussion shifts to historical perceptions of large animals, with Joe noting that ancient Greeks likely invented the legend of the Cyclops after discovering central nasal cavities in fossilized elephant skulls. Forrest asks Joe if he has ever visited **The Explorers Club** in New York City, describing its vast collection of historical artifacts—including the famous Champawat maneater tiger mounted on display, which killed over 400 people before being hunted by Jim Corbett.
Forrest notes that The Explorers Club also houses the world's only known **four-tusked elephant skull**. Rather than a separate species, the extra pair of tusks grew inward as an extreme genetic mutation. Joe draws a parallel to North American elk, noting how young bulls that suffer skull or antler-pedicle injuries often grow distorted antlers—such as a single straight "spear" antler—which can lead to unusual combat behaviors in the wild.
- The Champawat Tiger was a legendary man-eating Bengal tiger responsible for an estimated 436 documented deaths in Nepal and Kumaon before being shot by Jim Corbett in 1907.
- The Explorers Club in New York holds a rare four-tusked elephant skull, representing a unique genetic anomaly.
<FollowUp label="Want to hear more about Jim Corbett's legendary hunts or the history of The Explorers Club?" query="Tell me more about Jim Corbett's man-eating tiger hunts and the history and famous artifacts inside The Explorers Club in New York."/>
[28:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1685s) Self-Piercing Horns, Babirusas, and Tainted Game Meat
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante inspect a graphic photo on Jamie’s screen showing an antelope whose horn suffered an early injury. Because antelopes—unlike deer—do not shed their horns, the compromised horn grew continuously in a tight arc until it pierced the animal's own skull. Rogan points out how the horn was just millimeters away from driving straight into the brain, imagining the agonizing, incremental daily pain of a horn slowly sawing through living tissue and bone. The conversation pivots to the babirusa, a wild Indonesian suid whose upper tusks naturally grow directly upward through the skin of the snout and curve backward toward the forehead, requiring them to constantly fight and break their tusks in the wild to avoid lethal self-impalement.
Comparing notes on how different wild game tastes, Rogan recalls his experience eating javelina (peccary), which he found unappetizing due to their diet. This reminds Rogan of a story involving his friend Steve Rinella, who smoked a bear ham on a friend's smoker. The smoker produced such a pungent fish aroma that Rinella suggested his friend clean it, only for the owner to clarify he had never cooked fish in it once—the bear had simply consumed so much salmon in the wild that its rendered fat smelled entirely like fish.
* **Antelope Horn Growth:** Antelope horns grow continuously throughout their life, meaning severe injuries or misalignments can lead to the horn curving back into the animal's skull.
* **Babirusa:** A wild swine native to Indonesia; its upper tusks grow through the top of the snout and will penetrate the skull if not broken off during combat or foraging.
* **Javelina vs. Swine:** Javelinas belong to the peccary family (*Tayassuidae*) rather than the true pig family (*Suidae*), and their omnivorous, opportunistic diet often yields poor-tasting meat.
* ** Steve Rinella's Bear Ham:** Wild game meat directly reflects the animal's diet; bears feeding heavily on spawning salmon produce fat and meat with a distinct, heavy fish odor when cooked.
---
[30:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1843s) Search for the Thylacine, the Saola, and Unexplored Frontiers
Rogan asks for an update on Galante's ongoing search for the thylacine (Tasmanian tiger). Galante admits the trail has gone cold. While he collaborates with groups like Mammal Watching to distribute trail cameras to locals in Western New Guinea (Papua), the oral accounts and sighting legends are dwindling across generations. They reflect on humanity's fascination with relict species like the thylacine or ground sloth, referencing a documentary about a biologist who nearly ruined his career spending years searching the Amazon for giant sloths based solely on local stories.
Galante counters that dismissive attitudes can cause scientists to miss massive discoveries, citing the saola (*Pseudoryx nghetinhensis*)—also known as the Asian unicorn. Native to the Annamite Range of Vietnam and Laos, the saola was completely unknown to Western science until 1992. Galante recounts an incident where conservation biologist Rob Timmins (and later researcher Bill Robichaud) tracked reports of a captive saola held in a Laotian village; unfortunately, the animal died overnight, and local villagers consumed it before it could be comprehensively studied. The pair discuss how vast, dense regions like the Amazon basin and the highlands of New Guinea remain largely unmapped on the ground, leaving ample room for undocumented species or uncontacted human tribes.
> "It feels like the legends are getting fewer and further between... like almost over generational time, it's disappearing."
* **Thylacine (*Thylacinus cynocephalus*):** Though officially declared extinct in 1936, expeditions continue to investigate remote rainforest pockets in Papua New Guinea for potential remnant populations.
* **Saola (*Pseudoryx nghetinhensis*):** Discovered in 1992 in the Annamite Range; called the "Asian unicorn" because its two long, parallel horns align in side profile to look like a single horn.
* **Robichaud Expedition:** Bill Robichaud was among the first Western scientists to photograph a live saola in 1996 after a Laotian general captured one.
---
[35:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2110s) Cryptozoology Debunks and the "Whale Penis" Nessie Hoax
The discussion turns briefly to cryptozoology, with Rogan asking Galante his thoughts on the Loch Ness Monster. Galante speculates that famous sightings are likely misidentified large fish like sturgeons, while Rogan brings up a viral internet theory claiming the iconic "surgeon's photograph" of Nessie poking out of the water was actually the erect penis of a baleen whale.
Producer Jamie Young pulls up articles showing that while marine species do surface their anatomy in ways that resemble a long neck, the famous 1934 Loch Ness photograph was officially exposed in 1994 as a deliberate hoax crafted using a toy submarine fitted with a sculpted head. Galante laughs off the theory, joking that he still prefers the "whale dick" narrative despite the debunking.
* **Loch Ness Monster Hoax:** The famous 1934 "Surgeon's Photograph" taken by Marmaduke Wetherell and Robert Kenneth Wilson was proven in 1994 to be a 14-inch toy submarine modified with wood and putty.
* **Sturgeon Misidentification:** Large freshwater species, such as the Baltic or European sea sturgeon (*Acipenser sturio*), are frequently cited by biologists as plausible explanations for historical lake monster sightings.
---
[37:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2226s) Geographic Isolation, Extinction Shifts, and Texas Culture
Galante explains how relic populations of prehistoric fauna could theoretically survive in isolated geographical pockets—such as deep valleys bordered by impassable mountain rings in Peru—where microclimates and ecosystems remain unchanged for thousands of years. Rogan notes that during the Younger Dryas climate event, the catastrophic extinction of North American megafauna (where roughly 65% of large mammals vanished) was far less severe near the equator and in South America, leaving open the slight theoretical possibility of late-surviving species.
The conversation naturally shifts from wilderness habitats to the human ecosystem of Texas, where Galante is visiting. Rogan highlights a startling wildlife stat: there are more captive tigers in private collections across the state of Texas than remain in the entire wild population global total. The two express their affection for the culture in Texas and Austin specifically, praising its unique political balance as a progressive, easygoing city surrounded by traditional conservative rural areas. Rogan compares social harmony to ecological equilibrium, arguing that a healthy society needs balance between opposing perspectives just as an ecosystem requires a balance between predators and prey.
* **Younger Dryas Impact:** Approximately 12,900 years ago, severe abrupt cooling led to the rapid extinction of over 35 genera of North American megafauna, including mammoth, mastodon, and ground sloth species.
* **Captive Tigers in Texas:** Estimates indicate there are between 2,000 and 5,000 captive tigers in Texas alone, exceeding the estimated ~3,900-5,500 wild tigers left globally.
---
[41:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2475s) Austin as the World Capital of Jiu-Jitsu
Galante asks Rogan if he brought his "California lifestyle"—like acai bowls—with him when he moved to Texas. Rogan explains that he relocated primarily for the comedy scene at the Comedy Store and the thriving martial arts community, noting that Austin has unexpectedly transformed into the global epicenter of Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu (BJJ).
Rogan lists the top-tier academies and high-profile grapplers who have established bases in the Austin area, including Gordon Ryan and John Danaher's New Wave Jiu-Jitsu, the rival B-Team Jiu-Jitsu (founded by Craig Jones, Nicky Ryan, and Ethan Crelinsten), Shintaro Higashi / Chewjitsu connections, alongside multiple Gracie Barra and 10th Planet facilities.
* **New Wave Jiu-Jitsu:** Led by legendary coach John Danaher and multi-time ADCC champion Gordon Ryan, operating out of Austin, Texas.
* **B-Team Jiu-Jitsu:** Founded by elite grapplers Craig Jones, Nicky Ryan, Ethan Crelinsten, and Nick Rodriguez after splitting from the Danaher Death Squad.
* **10th Planet & Gracie Barra:** Eddie Bravo's rubber-guard focused 10th Planet system and the traditional Gracie Barra network both maintain multiple prominent academies throughout the Austin metro area.
<FollowUp label="Want to explore the details of the Saola's discovery or the megafauna extinction during the Younger Dryas?" query="Can you give me a deeper breakdown of how the Saola was discovered in 1992, or detail the megafauna extinction theories surrounding the Younger Dryas period?"/>
[042:24] Comedy Capital of the Country & Moving out of LA
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante discuss the flourishing comedy scene in Austin, Texas, with Rogan noting how the city has evolved from a historic music hub into arguably the comedy capital of the United States. Rogan details the cluster of comedy venues around his own venue, Comedy Mothership, mentioning nearby spots like Brian Redban's Sunset Strip, Creek and the Cave, and the Vulcan Gas Company. The density of clubs allows comics at all levels to easily hop from room to room working on material.
Galante recalls early interactions with Rogan around Woodland Hills in Los Angeles, remembering Rogan's desire to leave California. Rogan reveals a lesser-known origin story: the *Joe Rogan Experience* podcast was initially launched because he was feeling depressed after having to move back to Los Angeles from Colorado.
- **Key Comedy Clubs Mentioned**: Comedy Mothership, Sunset Strip (owned by Brian Redban), Creek and the Cave, Vulcan Gas Company.
- **Relocation History**: Rogan moved from an elevation of 8,500 feet in Colorado back to Los Angeles due to pregnancy complications linked to high altitude.
---
[043:42] High Altitude Effects & Training
Rogan details why he had to abandon his mountain life in Gold Hill, Colorado (elevation 8,500 feet above sea level). When his pregnant wife experienced severe altitude sickness that vanished upon returning to sea-level Los Angeles, research into risks like low birth weight and premature birth forced them to move back. Rogan shares his experience training at high altitude in Gold Hill and Boulder (around 5,500 feet) under jiu-jitsu instructor Amal Easton.
Rogan vividly describes how kettlebell workouts at 8,500 feet felt like being heavily intoxicated—as if he had chugged a bottle of whiskey before exercising. However, after his body adapted, traveling to perform stand-up and train in Philadelphia felt like having a superhuman edge due to the excess oxygen blood saturation. Galante adds his own altitude experience from trekking in the Himalayas to spot red pandas, recalling how he went from sea-level Santa Barbara to needing rest breaks every 15 minutes after walking just 400 feet.
- **Locations & Elevations**: Gold Hill, CO (8,500 ft), Boulder, CO (5,500 ft), Philadelphia, PA, Himalayas, Santa Barbara, CA.
- **Jiu-Jitsu Instructor Mentioned**: Amal Easton (Easton BJJ in Boulder).
The conversation turns to the inherent dangers of high-altitude mountain trekking. Rogan recounts a terrifying video he recently watched where a mountaineer slipped off a summit path and slid helplessly down an icy slope while his friends stood by unable to intervene.
Galante talks about the dilemma of wanting to take his young children on adventurous expeditions—like crocodile catching or trekking—balanced against the reality that a six-year-old struggles with basic stability on level ground. Both agree that exposing kids to managed danger, distinct environments beyond comfortable domestic bubbles like Santa Monica, and real-world scarcity (such as food not being instantly available on demand via a smartphone) builds resilience and adaptability.
> "The world is a bunch of different things. It's not just Santa Monica... It's important because otherwise we live in a bubble."
---
[048:37] The Myth of Modern Sleep & Historical Two-Sleep Patterns
Galante brings up a recent piece of internet trivia claiming that the uninterrupted 8-hour sleep block was originally an invention of mattress companies. Rogan's producer, Young Jamie, quickly fact-checks the assertion, confirming that the mattress company connection is a myth, causing Galante to joke about Jamie constantly shattering his internet-acquired trivia.
Despite the myth, Rogan and Galante discuss the historical accuracy of "biphasic sleep" (two distinct sleep cycles during the night). Rogan shares how in his twenties he naturally fell into late-night awake periods to watch TV before going back to sleep. They note how natural human circadian rhythms functioned prior to widespread electricity, where people would retire shortly after dark and campfire gatherings.
- **Debunked Myth**: Mattress companies inventing the 8-hour sleep schedule.
- **Historical Practice**: Biphasic sleep / segmented sleep before electric lighting.
---
[050:19] Pandas, Ancient History, and "Rogan-Style" AI Responses
Galante raises a viral theory regarding giant pandas, questioning why they do not appear in ancient Chinese historical records, art, or literature in the same way creatures like dragons, tigers, or cranes do. Using Perplexity AI to check the facts live on air, Rogan reads out that giant pandas were indeed strikingly absent from classical Chinese cultural iconography, with their status as a national symbol being largely a post-1949 development.
The AI search result humorously labels the theory a "Rogan-style claim," leading to a lighthearted exchange where Rogan jokingly confronts the AI for profiling his search history and cross-referencing his past podcast statements.
- **Historical Findings**: Pandas rarely appear in classical Chinese records (such as the *Shijing* or Tang/Song art) compared to tigers, cranes, and dragons. Mentioned historical texts include candidate references to creatures like *Pi* or *Mo*, though those often referred to tapirs, leopards, or mythical beasts.
- **Cultural Status**: The giant panda's designation as a prominent national symbol was constructed after 1949.
---
[054:35] Domesticated Wolves, Taxonomic Carnivores, and Panda Behavior
Rogan and Galante ponder how pandas evolved their hyper-specific diet of bamboo, drawing a comparison to selective breeding in dogs. Rogan brings up his own pet, a Cavalier King Charles Spaniel, remarking on how drastically humans selectively bred wild wolves into small, cuddly companion animals, asking whether similar selective manipulation could have happened to a bear species.
Galante clarifies the biological reality of giant pandas: despite eating exclusively low-nutrition bamboo (similar to marsupial koalas relying on eucalyptus), pandas are taxonomically in the order *Carnivora*. They retain the short digestive tract and gut microbiomes of meat-eaters rather than typical herbivores. Galante closes by poking fun at the panda's public relations image, calling them notoriously clumsy parents and noting videos where a panda mother in captivity willingly trades her newborn baby for an apple.
- **Taxonomy**: Giant pandas belong to the order *Carnivora* and possess carnivore digestive tracts despite an herbivorous diet.
- **Rogan's Dog Breed**: Cavalier King Charles Spaniel.
[57:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3423s) Pandas, Social Media AI Brainrot, and Fake Animal Encounters
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante laugh about the sheer absurdity of giant pandas, joking that their low survival instincts make them seem like an animal trying its absolute hardest to go extinct. Zookeepers often have to distract a mother panda with a simple piece of apple just to handle her baby, as she will willingly drop her offspring for a snack. Transitioning from panda biology to internet viral trends, Rogan asks where the bizarre online conspiracy theory originated that pandas were artificially engineered by humans to eat bamboo. Forrest points out that while he can spot obvious hoaxes 90% of the time, the remaining 10% of AI-generated content is becoming alarmingly convincing.
The conversation turns to the proliferation of fake wildlife videos on social media feeds like Instagram. Forrest describes a recent clip showing a leopard pouncing onto a wildebeest's back, prompting the wildebeest to jump into a river where crocodiles attack and kill the leopard while the wildebeest escapes unharmed. Both men break down why the scenario is ecologically absurd—a panicked wildebeest wouldn't intentionally seek out crocodiles as a defense tactic, nor would opportunistic crocs pass up a free meal of both prey items. Upon inspecting a longer clip provided by producer Jamie, they critique the unnatural color saturation, the weightless movement of the leopard's paws, and the unnaturally prolonged struggle against the crocodiles.
* **Panda Captivity Trick:** Zookeepers routinely use apples to distract mother pandas because they will drop their cubs to reach the fruit.
* **AI Video Flaws:** Forrest notes key indicators of AI-generated or edited wildlife footage include incorrect animal behaviors, oversaturated fur tones, and unnatural physics during predator-prey interactions.
---
[59:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3571s) Forrest’s High-Stakes Discovery Channel Stunt in a Crocodile Cage
Forrest reveals details about a high-concept television series he spent years developing for the Discovery Channel, where the core premise involves placing himself directly into the perspective of prey animals through custom engineering. For one stunt, he was lowered inside a tiny, coffin-like steel cage into a pond densely populated with wild crocodiles. Rogan presses him on the safety protocols, flabbergasted that Forrest agreed to enter a claustrophobic enclosure constructed out of whatever spare steel the workshop crew had on hand without extensive impact testing.
The situation became even more absurd when discussing emergency extraction plans. Forrest carried a single scuba tank providing roughly 30 to 40 minutes of air in the event the suspension cables snapped and sank the cage to the bottom. When Forrest questioned the stunt coordinator about what would happen if the main cable broke, the coordinator calmly explained he would throw a manual grappling hook to pull the cage back up—admitting he hadn't planned for what would happen if the hook snagged on a submerged log. Locked tightly inside the enclosure with no way to open it from within, Forrest realized he had put his life entirely at risk for a television segment, telling his wife afterward that it was time to phase out such dangerous stunts.
* **The Setup:** A steel cage built to the dimensions of a human body, suspended by cables over a crocodile-infested pond.
* **Air Reserve:** Forrest carried a scuba tank giving him a maximum window of 30 to 40 minutes of air underwater.
* **Extraction Plan:** The safety coordinator's fallback plan for a broken cable relied solely on a hand-thrown grappling hook.
---
[01:01:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3702s) Polar Bears, Abandoned Russian Villages, and Ocean Swimmers
The conversation shifts to the extreme lengths nature shows go to capture viewers, referencing the famous viral clip of a filmmaker trapped inside a clear acrylic box while a massive polar bear relentlessly attacks it. Rogan notes how terrifying polar bears are compared to grizzly bears; while a grizzly attack is usually a defensive response to a human startling it or intruding on its space, polar bears view humans purely as food. Rogan describes an abandoned Russian island village in the Bering Sea where polar bears completely took over the decaying houses, using the empty rooms as winter dens and lounging out of the windows like human residents.
Forrest and Rogan marveled at the endurance and swimming capabilities of apex Arctic predators. Polar bears rely heavily on their thick fat reserves, allowing them to swim vast stretches of open ocean while occasionally "snooze floating" on their backs to rest between hunts. Forrest highlights documentations of polar bears swimming hundreds of miles from Greenland to Iceland. Rogan reads through news reports detailing a famous incident from 2008 where a polar bear completed a long-distance ocean swim to Iceland, only to be shot by local authorities upon arrival.
> "It just shows you how predatory polar bears are and how they don't give a fuck. It's just trying to get at that guy."
* **Polar Bear Behavior:** Unlike grizzlies, polar bears actively hunt humans as prey due to the harsh, food-scarce environment of the High Arctic.
* **The Abandoned Village:** A former Soviet mining or fishing outpost in the Bering Sea became a sanctuary where polar bears reclaimed the homes as shelter.
* **Ocean Traverses:** Polar bears have been documented swimming distances up to 200 miles across open water, occasionally riding moving ice floes across the sea.
---
[01:06:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3980s) The King’s Polar Bear and Historical Cruelty
Rogan pulls up historical records revealing that polar bears were occasionally captured and gifted to European royalty during the Middle Ages. In 1252, King Henry III of England received a white bear as a diplomatic gift from King Haakon IV of Norway and housed the animal at the Tower of London. Because keeping the massive predator was immensely expensive—costing London sheriffs more than a shilling a week, equivalent to a knight's annual income—the bear was given a unique arrangement to feed itself. Outfitted with a muzzle, a iron collar, and a long tethering leash, the polar bear was led down to the River Thames by a Norwegian handler wearing custom waterproof leather garments so the bear could catch wild salmon.
```
1252: King Haakon IV of Norway gifts a polar bear to King Henry III of England.
├── Location: Kept at the Tower of London rather than the royal menagerie at Woodstock.
├── Upkeep Cost: Exceeded 1 shilling per week (equivalent to a knight's yearly wage).
└── Fishing Trips: Muzzled and leashed, the bear caught salmon directly from the River Thames.
```
The conversation segues into historical animal cruelty, beginning with the aggressive nature of sloth bears native to India and Nepal. Forrest details the dark history of "dancing bears," where nomadic tribes captured young sloth bears, inserted nose rings, and forced them onto heated metal plates so the animals would jump from foot to foot to avoid getting burned. Rogan and Forrest reflect on other blood sports from history, including bear-baiting and bull-baiting in England, as well as colonial South Africa where baboons were pitted against hunting dogs for gambling. Forrest notes that while these practices were undeniably barbaric, early human interactions with wildlife eventually paved the way for modern animal conservation ethics.
* **Sloth Bear Characteristics:** Small, highly aggressive bears found in South Asia that regularly defend themselves against apex predators like Bengal tigers.
* **Historical Blood Sports:** Bear-baiting (pitting dogs against chained bears), bull-baiting, and baboon fighting were common forms of public entertainment and gambling across Europe and colonial territories.
* **Conservation Perspective:** Forrest argues that humanity's historical mistakes and exploitation of animals eventually sparked the modern wildlife protection movement.<ElicitationsGroup message="Explore related topics from this episode:">
<Elicitation label="Explore the full details of Forrest Galante's shark encounters" query="What are Forrest Galante's most dangerous shark encounters and insights from Alien Sharks?"/>
<Elicitation label="Break down the history of animal baiting sports" query="Can you provide a detailed historical breakdown of bear-baiting and bull-baiting in medieval and early modern Europe?"/>
</ElicitationsGroup>
[01:10:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4212s) Ancient Rome, Psychedelics, and Ergot Poisoning
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante reflect on the nature of human history and how vastly different the value of life was in ancient times. Standing in historical sites like the Colosseum or the Parthenon in Athens brings a unique sense of perspective that cannot be replicated by looking at photographs. They discuss how the Romans used the Colosseum for brutal entertainment, even flooding it to host simulated naval ship battles. Moving from Rome to Ancient Greece, Rogan highlights the Eleusinian Mysteries in Eleusis, where pilgrims embarked on fasting treks from Athens to engage in sacred psychedelic rituals.
Galante asks what substances were used in these ancient rites. Rogan explains that chemical residue found in ancient Greek clay pots contained ergot—a parasitic fungus that infects grains like rye and wheat. Ergot naturally contains lysergic acid compounds, giving it a chemical structure closely related to LSD. Beyond its psychoactive effects, ergot can be deadly, causing severe ergotism (historically known as St. Anthony's Fire). The pair discuss the compelling theory that contaminated rye caused an outbreak of ergotism in Salem, Massachusetts, leading directly to the mass hallucinations and hysteria behind the Salem Witch Trials.
- **Colosseum Naval Battles:** The Ancient Romans flooded the arena floor to perform mock sea battles (*naumachiae*).
- **Eleusinian Mysteries:** Sacred rites held in Eleusis where initiates fasted and consumed a psychoactive brew (*kykeon*).
- **Ergot Chemistry:** The fungus contains lysergic acid amides and ergotreplines, sharing an ergoline core with semi-synthetic LSD.
- **Salem Witch Trials Connection:** A cold winter followed by a damp spring creates ideal conditions for ergot growth on rye, potentially causing accidental mass tripping and paranoia in 1692.
---
[01:13:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4418s) MKUltra, Operation Midnight Climax, and the Pont-Saint-Esprit Incident
The conversation shifts to covert government experimentation on unwitting citizens. Rogan brings up MKUltra and Operation Midnight Climax, a CIA operation led by figures like Dr. Charles "Jolly" West. The agency set up safehouses and brothels equipped with two-way mirrors, using prostitutes to slip LSD into drinks served to unsuspecting clients while researchers watched and recorded their reactions. Because the victims were visiting illicit brothels, the CIA knew they would never report being secretly dosed.
The discussion turns to the mysterious 1951 mass poisoning in the French village of Pont-Saint-Esprit. Hundreds of residents suddenly suffered violent hallucinations, severe psychosis, and convulsions. Seven people died—some jumping out of windows believing they were being chased by beasts or could fly—and 50 were committed to asylums. While French authorities blamed ergot-contaminated flour from a local bakery, journalist H. P. Albarelli Jr. published a 2009 book arguing it was a joint covert LSD field test conducted by the CIA, the US Army's Special Operations Division at Fort Detrick, and Sandoz Pharmaceutical. Though some historians cite medical discrepancies—such as gangrene and vasoconstriction typical of ergot rather than acute LSD—Rogan remains deeply skeptical of official denials, noting how heavily redacted and guarded intelligence archives remain.
- **Operation Midnight Climax:** CIA-funded safehouses in San Francisco and New York where men were dosed with LSD via prostitutes behind two-way mirrors.
- **Pont-Saint-Esprit Incident (1951):** 250 townspeople afflicted, 50 institutionalized, 7 deaths.
- **Frank Olson Connection:** Intelligence scientist involved in biological research who died in a suspicious 1953 window fall after being unknowingly dosed with LSD by CIA colleagues.
- **Alternative Chemical Theories:** Beyond ergot or LSD, scientists proposed mercury fungicides, nitrogen trichloride, or *Aspergillus fumigatus* mycotoxins as potential causes.
---
[01:18:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4716s) Ticks, Bioweapon Research, and the Spread of Alpha-Gal Syndrome
Rogan draws a direct line between military bio-experimentation and modern public health crises, bringing up the history of Plum Island Animal Disease Center off the coast of Long Island. He details how researchers conducted gain-of-function research on ticks to explore weaponizing them as delivery vectors. The military strategy aimed to drop infected ticks from airplanes to spread debilitating illnesses across foreign troops, civilians, and livestock, effectively collapsing enemy medical systems and food supply chains.
The discussion shifts to the alarming rise of Lone Star tick bites and Alpha-gal syndrome—an allergy to red meat and mammalian products caused by a sugar molecule injected during a bite. Rogan mentions that his close friend Evan Hafer (founder of Black Rifle Coffee Company) suffered severe systemic health issues after contracting it. Galante shares his own paranoia about ticks, noting that as an outdoorsman who spends immense time in the woods, the threat of catching a permanent meat allergy or chronic Lyme disease is terrifying. They voice frustration over political and globalist figures who champion reducing meat consumption, half-joking about how conveniently Alpha-gal syndrome achieves that exact goal.
- **Plum Island Facility:** Government facility long associated with tick-borne biological warfare testing and vector research.
- **Alpha-Gal Syndrome:** Triggered by the bite of the Lone Star tick (*Amblyomma americanum*), causing mild to life-threatening allergic reactions to red meat (beef, pork, lamb).
- **Lyme Disease Impact:** UFC veteran Jim Miller famously fought a career-threatening battle with chronic Lyme disease before recovering through strict dietary management.
---
[01:21:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4904s) Animal Espionage: Acoustic Kitty and Cybernetic Insects
Galante introduces bizarre historical accounts of animals being weaponized for intelligence gathering, starting with the CIA's "Acoustic Kitty" project in the 1960s. Designed by the Directorate of Science and Technology, the CIA spent millions attempting to turn street cats into covert listening devices to eavesdrop on Soviet embassy communications. Surgeons implanted a microphone into a cat's ear canal, a radio transmitter at the base of its skull, and a wire antenna woven along its spine under its fur.
Reading through the historical record, Rogan and Galante laugh over the absurd outcome: on its very first field mission in Washington, D.C., the cat was released to bug two men on a park bench, only to be struck and killed almost instantly by a passing taxi. While official CIA history claimed the equipment was surgically removed and the cat lived out a long life, Rogan scoffs at the narrative as a cover-up for a failed, chaotic experiment.
> "There's a cockroach under your carpet here listening to us somewhere right now."
The conversation transitions from mammalian cyborgs to DARPA's modern biological engineering. In 2006, the Pentagon requested the development of cyborg insects for military reconnaissance. By 2009, researchers at UC Berkeley successfully created remote-controlled cyborg beetles by embedding microchips, receivers, and miniature batteries directly onto giant flower beetles to manipulate their flight muscles in real time.
- **Acoustic Kitty:** 1960s CIA project costing an estimated $20 million that was eventually abandoned due to the sheer difficulty of training domestic cats.
- **DARPA Hybrid Insect MEMS:** Defense program aimed at inserting micro-electro-mechanical systems into insects during their pupal stage to build living reconnaissance drones.
- **UC Berkeley Cyborg Beetle (2009):** Scientists used radio signals sent to implanted neuromuscular electrodes to command beetles to take off, turn, and hover.
[01:24:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5096s) Military Animals, Dolphin Interactivity, and Spy Whales
The conversation opens with a discussion on how military technology attached to animals has shrunk over time alongside advances in microchips and battery tech. Joe and Forrest reflect on historical and CIA military experiments using animals, such as attaching incendiary devices to bats to burn down towns, strapping cameras to spy pigeons, and training aquatic mammals. Joe shares a personal memory of reading about military dolphins being used as target detonators or "kamikaze" weapon distributors, an idea that deeply saddened him due to his love for the species. Recalling a trip to Hawaii while high on edibles, Joe recounts how wild dolphins jumped alongside his boat, making eye contact and reacting joyfully to people cheering. Forrest agrees that cetaceans pick up on human energy and play purely for enjoyment.
The discussion turns to the U.S. Navy Marine Mammal Program, established in 1959. Official records note that dolphins were trained to use echolocation in dark water to detect underwater mines and notify handlers, rather than acting as combat weapons. Joe and Forrest speculate that governments often leak disinformation about suicide-dolphin programs to send adversaries on wild goose chases. Forrest then highlights the famous case of Hvaldimir, the Russian "spy beluga" whale that appeared off the coast of Norway wearing a camera harness before later turning up dead under mysterious circumstances.
- **1959**: The year the U.S. Navy Marine Mammal Program was initiated to train dolphins and sea lions for mine detection and asset defense.
- **Hvaldimir**: A tamed beluga whale discovered in Norway in 2019 wearing a camera mount labeled "Equipment St. Petersburg," suspected of escaping a Russian naval training program.
- **Bat Bombs**: A World War II experimental weapon proposed by Lytle S. Adams to drop Mexican free-tailed bats carrying small incendiary timed bombs over Japanese cities.
---
[01:28:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5326s) John Lilly's Research, Dolphin Communication, and AI
Joe brings up the controversial interspecies communication research conducted by Dr. John C. Lilly, the neuroscientist who invented the sensory deprivation tank and inspired the film *Altered States*. Joe explains how Lilly took intramuscular doses of ketamine inside isolation tanks while attempting to unlock human consciousness and communicate with dolphins. To study interspecies language, Lilly set up a flooded house where researcher Margaret Howe Lovatt lived in waist-deep water full-time with a dolphin named Peter. The project hit a major boundary when Peter grew sexually frustrated, prompting Lovatt to manually stimulate the dolphin so he would remain cooperative during language lessons. The research lost its funding shortly after the nature of these sessions came to light.
```
┌───────────────────────────────────┐
│ Dr. John C. Lilly (1960s) │
│ Interspecies Communication Exp. │
└─────────────────┬─────────────────┘
│
┌──────────────────────┴──────────────────────┐
▼ ▼
┌─────────────────────────┐ ┌─────────────────────────┐
│ Isolation Tank / LSD │ │ The Dolphin House │
├─────────────────────────┤ ├─────────────────────────┤
│ Explored consciousness │ │ Margaret Howe Lovatt │
│ and neural pathways. │ │ cohabited with Peter │
│ │ │ the dolphin full-time. │
└─────────────────────────┘ └─────────────────────────┘
```
The conversation transitions into the anatomical limitations of cetacean vocalization. Forrest notes that dolphins lack the physical vocal cords to produce human speech sounds. Joe plays a clip of an killer whale named Wikie mimicking basic human words like "hello," "bye-bye," and counting "one, two," though Joe jokes that the whale is likely trying to say, "Put me back in the ocean!" They discuss how modern artificial intelligence is beginning to revolutionize marine biology by analyzing large databases of whale clicks, whistles, and codas to decode non-human languages.
- **John C. Lilly**: Neuroscientist and pioneer in sensory deprivation tanks, human-dolphin communication, and psychedelic research.
- **Margaret Howe Lovatt**: The researcher who lived in the flooded "Dolphin House" in St. Thomas in 1965 to teach English to Peter the dolphin.
- **Wikie the Orca**: A captive killer whale at Marineland Aquarium in Antibes, France, famous for learning to imitate human words via her blowhole.
---
[01:32:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5542s) Captivity, Abandoned Marine Parks, and Non-Human Intelligence
The hosts condemn marine parks like SeaWorld, pointing out that public awareness only shifted after the release of the 2013 documentary *Blackfish*. Forrest brings up a critical situation in France where a closed marine park left two orcas and several dolphins trapped in decaying, abandoned tanks. Because the owner could not afford to maintain or transport the animals and the government refused to step in, the owner had to pay out-of-pocket just to provide minimal food. Joe references Phil Demers, the whistleblower who fought to expose conditions at Marineland in Ontario, Canada.
> "Someday in the future we're going to look back at that the way people today look back at slavery. We're going to say these are intelligent creatures that just don't have the ability to manipulate their environment like we do."
Joe and Forrest argue that human society unfairly defines intelligence solely as the drive to manufacture tools or alter physical surroundings. Dolphins possess a cerebral cortex roughly 40% larger than a human's, and elephants display an emotional quotient (EQ) and capacity for trauma far beyond human comprehension. Because orcas move freely through three dimensions, hold their breath for long periods, and sit at the top of the food chain, they have no functional need to build structures or invent technology.
- **Blackfish**: The 2013 documentary detailing the life of the captive orca Tilikum and the ethical issues surrounding marine parks.
- **Phil Demers**: Former head trainer at Marineland Canada turned animal rights activist and whistleblower.
- **Cerebral Cortex Ratio**: Cetaceans exhibit extensive cortical folding (gyrification), with certain species possessing a larger total surface area in the cerebral cortex than adult humans.
---
[01:36:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5808s) The Zoo Nuance: Conservation vs. Captivity
While both agree that keeping cetaceans in concrete tanks is cruel, Forrest defends high-quality accredited zoos, pushing back against broad anti-zoo sentiment. He stresses that while old-school "concrete box" facilities were terrible, top-tier accredited institutions like the San Diego Zoo carry out vital conservation work, save species from extinction, and foster environmental awareness in young children. Joe shares his experience visiting a wolf sanctuary with Forrest; while he felt saddened seeing the animals' restricted movement and learning that male wolves were neutered to prevent pack fighting, he acknowledges the complex dilemma facing rescues.
The two explore the genetic complications of releasing captive animals back into the wild. Many rescued "wolves" are actually wolf-dog hybrids that cannot be released into native populations without corrupting the wild gene pool. This prompts a question from Joe about whether the black coat variation in wild wolves originated from interbreeding with domesticated dogs. To settle the claim, they decide to query Perplexity live on air.
- **San Diego Zoo**: A world-renowned wildlife conservation facility cited as the benchmark for high-standard animal care.
- **Wolf-Dog Hybrids**: Canid crosses that pose genetic pollution risks to wild wolf populations if released into natural ecosystems.
- **Black Coat Mutation**: A genetic trait (K-Locus mutation) in North American wolves believed by geneticists to have been introduced via historical hybridization with domesticated dogs thousands of years ago.
[01:38:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5904s) Black Wolves and Dog Genetics
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante explore the genetic origins of black coat color in North American wolves. Rogan asks whether wolves inherited the black coat trait through interbreeding with domesticated dogs. Pulling up research on Perplexity, Young Jamie reads a 2009 study by Anderson et al. showing that the black coat phenotype stems from a mutation in the K locus—specifically a three-base-pair deletion in the $CBD103$ gene.
This mutation originated in domesticated dogs and introduced itself to wolves via hybridization (introgression), likely starting in the Yukon or Northwest Territories, rather than developing natively in wolves.
* Genetic research confirms black wolf fur comes from a mutation originally found in dogs.
* The specific mutation is a three-base-pair deletion in the $CBD103$ gene (K locus).
* Analyzing 331 wolves and 20 dogs revealed that North American wolf haplotypes are monophyletic, pointing to a single historic introgression event.
---
[01:40:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6034s) Seeing De-Extinct Dire Wolves at Colossal Biosciences
Rogan recounts his private visit to Colossal Biosciences, where geneticists are attempting to bring back the dire wolf. He describes getting to interact directly with the four-month-old female wolf puppy named Khaleesi, noting she was around 40 pounds and remarkably sweet, affectionate, and puppy-like. However, the two males—Romulus and Remus—grew large and aggressive quickly, making direct physical contact unsafe past five or six months of age.
```
┌───────────────────────────────┐
│ Colossal Dire Wolves │
└───────────────┬───────────────┘
│
┌────────────────────────┴────────────────────────┐
│ │
┌──────┴──────┐ ┌──────┴──────┐
│ Khaleesi │ │ Romulus & │
│ (Female) │ │ Remus │
│ │ │ (Males) │
└──────┬──────┘ └──────┬──────┘
│ │
├─ Cuddly & affectionate (~40 lbs) ├─ Grew very large (~200 lbs)
└─ Kept separate from older males └─ Developed mane & white fur
```
The discussion turns to the scientific debate surrounding whether these animals are "true" dire wolves or simply heavily engineered gray wolves modified to express dire wolf traits. Rogan argues that quibbling over human labels misses the point, comparing it to creating a 30-foot dinosaur: "If it ate everyone in a VW bus, it's a real T-Rex. The genes don't give a fuck what labels you put on them." Galante adds that he was promised a resurrected "woolly mouse" by Colossal's founder, Ben Lamm.
* Colossal's resurrected dire wolves grow to around 200 lbs, feature thick white fur, and unexpectedly express a lion-like mane.
* Critics argue the animals are genetically engineered gray wolves expressing dire wolf traits rather than pure de-extinct species.
* Rogan visited with his youngest daughter, who was able to cuddle and pet the young female puppy Khaleesi before she matured.
---
[01:44:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6257s) Short-Faced Bears and Ice Age Human Migration
Galante brings up the theory that giant short-faced bears (*Arctodus simus*) slowed down or temporarily halted human migration into North America across the Bering Land Bridge. Standing double the size of a modern polar bear and capable of running at high speeds, these hyper-predators presented a terrifying obstacle to early humans armed with primitive tools.
> "Imagine you have a 10 mm semi-automatic pistol and you have to rack the slide... The bear's coming. You're already dead."
Rogan and Galante review the competing scientific theories regarding short-faced bear behavior:
* **Apex Pursuit Predator:** Massive size and incredible running speed allowed them to prey directly on large Ice Age megafauna and early humans.
* **Kleptoparasite (Scavenger):** Long-legged limb proportions were built for long-distance pacing to locate and steal kills from lions, dire wolves, and scimitar cats.
They look into how early humans might have defended themselves or hunted these creatures. Historical evidence suggests humans relied on smoked fires at cave entrances to kill bear cubs and adults in their dens rather than facing them in open combat.
---
[01:49:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6585s) The Mechanics of Primitive Weapons vs. Modern Archery
The discussion shifts to primitive hunting tools, specifically the atlatl (spear-thrower). Rogan explains that an atlatl uses mechanical leverage—similar to a modern Chuckit! dog ball launcher—to throw spears further with wrist action without blowing out a shoulder, though achieving accuracy with one is notoriously difficult.
Comparing ancient tools to modern technology, Rogan details the precision involved in shooting a modern compound bow:
* **Distance Measurement:** Laser rangefinders calculate exact yardage (e.g., 52 yards).
* **Software Calculations:** Archery software factors in the precise weight of a carbon-fiber arrow (around 500 grains) and its launch speed (around 390 feet per second).
* **Sight Tapes:** The computer generates custom sight tapes allowing micro-adjustments to target areas as small as a quarter at 52 yards.
Rogan points out that ancient hunters using traditional wooden bows and hand-carved arrows had to rely entirely on intuition to calculate arrow arcs and aerodynamics.
[01:52:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6726s) The Precision of Primitive Archery and the Giant Short-Faced Bear
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante discuss the immense skill required to hunt with primitive, handmade archery gear. Joe explains that because prehistoric arrows and flint arrowhead points were crafted entirely by hand, no two arrows flew identically—one might weigh 15 to 50 grains more than another, drastically altering its flight trajectory and drag. Without modern mechanical cams, fiberglass limbs, or uniform carbon shafts, early hunters had to practice constantly to judge distance by eye, mentally estimating five-yard increments and adjusting for severe arrow drop.
```
ANCIENT vs. MODERN ARCHERY
┌───────────────────────────────┬────────────────────────────────┐
│ PREHISTORIC / TRADITIONAL │ MODERN COMPOUND │
├───────────────────────────────┼────────────────────────────────┤
│ Hand-napped flint arrowheads │ Uniform carbon fiber arrows │
│ Weight varies by 15-50 grains │ Identical weight & drag │
│ Wood & sinew construction │ Mechanical cams & fiberglass │
│ Pure visual distance estimation│ Laser rangefinder accuracy │
└───────────────────────────────┴────────────────────────────────┘
```
The conversation turns to the terrifying reality of confronting Ice Age megafauna with hand-carved weapons. Joe pulls out a handmade stone-tipped arrow from his desk to illustrate how poorly such a projectile would plane through the air compared to modern gear. Facing an aggressive animal under those conditions meant managing extreme life-or-death anxiety. They discuss the prehistoric giant short-faced bear (*Arctodus simus*), noting its massive size and the physical evidence left behind in places like Missouri caves, where ancient claw marks remain frozen in the clay walls.
- Short-faced bears stood an estimated 11 to 12 feet tall, though Joe and Forrest suspect top specimens were even larger.
- The largest wild Kodiak bear on record weighed 1,656 lbs with an 18-inch hind foot; a captive specimen reached 2,130 lbs.
- The world-record wild brown bear shot by legendary archer Fred Bear in 1962 is currently on display at the Anchorage airport in Alaska.
---
[01:57:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7020s) The Psychology of Hunting Challenge and the Drive of Competition
Reflecting on Fred Bear—the pioneer who popularized modern bowhunting—Joe and Forrest marvel at the luxury of intentionally making survival tasks harder. Modern bowhunters like Aaron Snyder have abandoned high-tech compound bows for traditional recurves simply because modern gear made harvesting game "too easy." They debate whether this drive stems from ego or a fundamental human instinct to seek out self-imposed challenges and push personal boundaries against elite peers.
Joe argues that human progress is entirely fueled by competition, calling it essential to cultural and technological advancement. He notes that modern conveniences like smartphones, laptops, and high-speed internet exist only because individuals competed ruthlessly for market dominant rewards. This leads into a critique of economic systems that stifle personal incentive, with Joe stating, "this is why socialism is never going to work—if people aren't rewarded, they aren't going to work hard enough to do anything really spectacular."
---
[01:59:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7174s) Corporate Monopolies and Bill Gates's Media Reinvention
The discussion shifts to the necessity of government regulation to prevent hyper-competitive figures from creating unchecked monopolies. Joe brings up Microsoft’s aggressive tactics during the 1990s, recalling the landmark *United States v. Microsoft Corp.* antitrust trial driven by the Department of Justice and 20 states over monopolistic browser integration. He describes Bill Gates as a "ruthless capitalist" who systematically bought out or crushed competing software developers.
To repair his public image after the antitrust trials, Gates pivoted toward global philanthropy, donating hundreds of millions of dollars to major news networks like NBC, CBS, and CNN to secure favorable coverage. Joe notes that while Gates rebranded himself as a global health advocate through the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, critics view his efforts as "philanthro-capitalism"—a strategy that generates massive financial returns and influence under the guise of charity.
---
[02:02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7323s) Unintended Ecological Disasters: The Zambezi Mosquito Net Rant
Forrest jumps in with a passionate rant detailing an ecological tragedy caused by the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation in Africa's Cahora Bassa Delta (along the Zambezi River valley). Intending to eradicate malaria, the foundation distributed millions of fine-mesh mosquito nets to impoverished, indigenous riverine communities.
```
THE UNINTENDED ECOLOGICAL CASCADE
┌─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
│ 1. Mass distribution of fine-mesh anti-malaria nets │
├─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┤
│ 2. Locals use nets for immediate food gathering in deltas │
├─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┤
│ 3. Micro-mesh traps entire generations of juvenile fish │
├─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┤
│ 4. Collapse of breeding nurseries and local fish stock │
├─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┤
│ 5. Widespread famine & reliance on international assistance │
└─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
```
Rather than hanging the nets over beds, local residents—who already managed mosquitoes using traditional smoky cooking fires—used the fine-mesh nets to harvest fish from critical breeding nurseries. Because the net mesh was small enough to block mosquitoes, it indiscriminately trapped millions of tiny juvenile fish before they could mature or spawn.
> "They've taken such a rich and important part of Africa—one of the most abundant freshwater fisheries in the world—and destroyed it because they're 'helping' by handing out mosquito nets. Now you have people with malaria *and* hunger."
- The Cahora Bassa Delta serves as a primary ecological nursery for the entire Zambezi Valley fishery.
- Fine-mesh nets wiped out entire generations of juvenile fish, collapsing local food webs and creating regional famine in areas that previously had abundant natural protein.
- Despite the documented ecological crash, humanitarian organizations continued distributing the same net designs in subsequent years.
[02:06:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7560s) Bill Gates and the Jeffrey Epstein Interview
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante discuss a bizarre interview clip featuring Bill Gates being questioned about his past relationship with Jeffrey Epstein. Rogan details how Gates awkwardly attempted to justify the association by claiming it was strictly for philanthropic purposes and global health funding, before abruptly shutting down the line of questioning. The most unsettling moment for Rogan is when Gates addresses the fallout by stating, "Well, he's dead now, so there's that." Rogan interprets the tone of this response as a strange, veiled threat, remarking that it almost sounded like an admission that Epstein "got whacked."
Galante brings up a conversation he had with friends about how someone like Rogan would have easily been invited into Epstein's circle today before the truth came out. Rogan shocks Galante by revealing that he actually *was* invited to meet Epstein back in 2017 through an intermediary while he was in Los Angeles, though he did not go through with it. The two review the actual transcript of Gates's interview, noting how Gates repeatedly deflected by saying there was "absolutely nothing new" to report while failing to explain why a multi-billionaire would continuously meet with Epstein for years to secure funding he did not even need.
* Gates claimed his meetings with Epstein were a mistake aimed at raising money for global health, but they never resulted in what Epstein promised.
* Rogan mocks the logic of the meetings, pointing out that Gates has hundreds of billions of dollars and wouldn't need to beg Epstein for capital.
* Rogan characterizes Epstein's operation as essentially "providing a party for rich people" where high-profile figures could let their hair down and engage in illicit behavior without rules.
[02:10:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7810s) Extortion, Victoria's Secret, and Los Alamos Scientists
The conversation shifts to the blackmail tactics Epstein allegedly employed. They look at reports of an email Epstein drafted to himself, which allegedly claimed Gates had contracted an STI from Russian women and hid antibiotics from his then-wife, Melinda. While Gates's spokesperson called the claims "absolutely absurd," Rogan notes the rumor that Epstein used a relationship Gates had with a Russian bridge player as leverage. Rogan suggests that even unsent drafts could be used for extortion, allowing Epstein to show targets the text to quietly demand compliance. They also touch upon Les Wexner, the billionaire behind Victoria's Secret, who famously handed Epstein total control over his finances and gifted him a New York mansion. Galante enjoys the detour, joking that he came on the podcast as an "animal nerd" to talk about snakes, only to end up learning about high-level financial conspiracies and elite sex-trafficking rings.
Rogan dives into Epstein's strange fixation on the scientific community. Epstein purchased a massive ranch in New Mexico specifically to embed himself near underpaid physicists and researchers working at the Los Alamos National Laboratory. Rogan recounts how Epstein targeted intellectual figures like Eric Weinstein, offering them opportunities to make immense sums of money. Weinstein, however, saw through the facade immediately, recognizing that Epstein was a "construct" who lacked any genuine understanding of finance.
* An email draft written by Epstein on an iPad allegedly attempted to link Gates to an STI cover-up, though Gates denied any connection between his past affairs and Epstein's network.
* A Wexner-connected tax attorney was reportedly murdered in a mob-style hit in 1984 after threatening to speak to the IRS, adding to the dark history surrounding the finances.
* Reports from *The New York Times* revealed that Epstein harbored bizarre eugenics ambitions, hoping to use his ranch to seed a "super race" of humans carrying his own DNA.
[02:15:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8120s) The Wealth Gap and the Bondo Ape
Galante notes that con men like Epstein are often incredibly charismatic, though having a circle of attractive Russian women certainly minimizes the amount of charm required to attract wealthy dorks. Rogan points out that most legitimate billionaires are insanely driven, working 18 to 20 hours a day, which leaves them starving for the curated "experiences" Epstein specialized in providing. Galante contrasts this with his only billionaire friend, Anant Ambani, who uses his generational wealth to fund a massive wildlife rescue in India. Rogan and Galante discuss the global wealth scale, noting that making over $50,000 to $60,000 a year puts an individual in the top 1% of the world's population—meaning many Americans who feel they are barely scraping by are technically ultra-wealthy on a global scale.
Shifting back to biology, Rogan asks Galante for his thoughts on the legendary Bondo ape of the Congo. Galante explains that the creature is likely a distinct, isolated population of exceptionally large and aggressive chimpanzees rather than a mythological new monster. He confirms that these chimps possess a distinct cranial ridge, a physiological trait common in animals with massive jaw muscles like gorillas and hyenas, providing more surface area for muscle attachment.
* **Global 1% Threshold:** An income of roughly $50,000 to $60,000 puts an individual in the top 1% of the global population.
* **New Primate Discovery:** The hosts marvel at a recently documented monkey species discovered in the Congo, featuring a vibrant orange mouth that looks like a child who just ate a freeze pop.
* **The Bondo Ape:** Characterized by its massive size, lion-killing reputation, and a physical sagittal crest (cranial ridge) caused by intense jaw muscle development.
Here is a detailed walkthrough of this portion of the transcript:
[02:19:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8377s) Giant Chimpanzees, the Bili Ape, and Great Ape Confrontations
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante discuss Karl Ammann, who spent years investigating rumors of giant chimpanzees in the Congo, managing to capture camera-trap photos of bipedal chimps. Rogan brings up a famous photograph showing two men standing alongside a massive ape killed near a small airport. Rogan stresses that because one man has his hand directly on the ape without his arm being fully extended, it is clearly not forced perspective: the chimpanzee's body and head look impossibly massive compared to normal-sized human beings.
The conversation shifts to unique inter-species dynamic encounters documented in the wild. Rogan describes an area in the Congo where chimps and gorillas meet along a riverbank. The two great ape species perform displays across the water, throwing rocks and vocalizing at each other like opposing factions before retreating back into the dense jungle.
- **Karl Ammann's work:** Obtained camera-trap photos proving bipedal locomotion in remote Congolese chimpanzee populations.
- **Airport Photo:** Shows an unusually large chimpanzee whose head size drastically exceeds human proportions without forced-perspective trickery.
- **Cross-River Apes:** Documented encounters in the Congo feature chimpanzees and gorillas gathering on opposite sides of a river to throw rocks and communicate.
---
[02:22:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8539s) Territorial Chimp Wars and Gorilla-Chimp Interactions
Galante explains the mechanics behind long-running chimpanzee territorial conflicts, drawing a direct parallel to human war driven by social stress and resource limits. He details how a single large, peaceful chimpanzee troop fractured into two rival clans after two male leaders emerged alongside a scarcity of females. The two factions now wage constant, multi-year warfare over dominant territory, demonstrating surprisingly human-like tribal behavior.
Producer Jamie Pulliam pulls up a study titled *"Study highlights 'friends with benefits' relationship between gorillas and chimps."* The hosts poke fun at the headline's phrasing, with Rogan laughing about how "friends with benefits" implies a sexual relationship rather than young gorillas and chimps simply sharing fig trees peacefully. Furthermore, researchers observed wild chimpanzees mimicking gorilla chest-beating behaviors—a display previously thought to be exclusive to gorillas.
- **Chimpanzee War Dynamics:** Caused by population pressure, male leadership rivalries, and mate scarcity; splits unified troops into warring clans over multi-year periods.
- **Inter-species Play:** Juvenile gorillas and chimpanzees regularly feed on figs in the same trees together.
- **Behavioral Mimicry:** Wild chimps have been documented mimicking gorilla chest-beating, demonstrating cross-species learning.
---
[02:23:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8615s) Mega-Lions of *Relentless Enemies* and Island Gigantism
Rogan brings up the documentary *Relentless Enemies*, which highlights a pride of lions stranded on an island in the Okavango Delta due to shifting river paths. Forced to hunt Cape buffalo exclusively, the female lions evolved to become unusually large and muscular—nearly reaching the physical size of male lions in other regions. Galante notes that this is natural selection playing out in real time; any lion unable to handle the physical strain of tackling the "Black Death" (Cape buffalo) is killed or kicked in the jaw, leading to slow starvation.
This prompts a broader discussion on evolutionary adaptations on islands, specifically **insular gigantism** and **insular dwarfism**. Animals isolated on islands without apex predators or with abundant resources—such as Galápagos tortoises or island lizards—tend to grow far larger than their mainland counterparts over generations due to lack of predation and intense intraspecific competition.
> *"They just look exaggerated to the point where they look fake. They look like Hulk lions."* — Joe Rogan
- **Cape Buffalo Hunts:** High-risk prey that frequently breaks lion jaws with kicks, leading to fatal starvation for weaker lions.
- **Insular Gigantism/Dwarfism:** Island isolation accelerates dramatic physical scaling depending on available food sources and predator presence.
---
[02:26:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8773s) Unexplored Jungles and Lost Primate Species
Rogan notes how constantly new species are being discovered, highlighting a recently discovered monkey in the Congo with bright orange lips. Galante points out that several "lost" primate species exist only as historic museum specimens, having never been documented live in the modern era. He cites **Miss Waldron's red colobus** (*Piliocolobus waldronae*) as a primary example, which is known only from a few museum skins and hasn't been officially sighted in decades.
Galante emphasizes that the reason these species remain unverified is not necessarily because they are extinct, but because hunting and logging remote regions of West Africa and the Congo Basin make field research exceptionally dangerous for outside scientists. Local hunters often know these species exist and consume them as bushmeat, but lack direct contact with the international scientific community.
- **Miss Waldron's Red Colobus:** A West African primate species represented only by a few museum specimens, with no official live sightings in recent decades.
- **Research Challenges:** Extreme remote geography, regional political instability, and safety risks make systematic biological surveys in the Congo Basin nearly impossible.
---
[02:28:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8887s) Cryptids, the Congo's Vast Size, and Map Distortion
When Rogan asks if any other legendary cryptids could realistically exist, Galante dismisses rumors like the *Mokele-mbembe* (a living dinosaur in the Congo) as silly, though he admits that if unknown megafauna survives anywhere, it would be in massive, impenetrable expanses like the Amazon or the Congo rainforest.
This leads to a discussion on the true geographic scale of Africa. Rogan and Galante reflect on how Mercator map projections severely distort landmasses, making Africa appear far smaller relative to North America and Europe than it actually is. Producer Jamie displays map overlays showing that the continent of Africa can easily fit the United States, China, India, Eastern Europe, France, and Spain within its borders.
- **Congo Rainforest Scale:** Spans thousands of miles across Central Africa, making thorough exploration virtually impossible.
- **Map Distortions:** Common flat projections shrink Africa's apparent surface area compared to northern hemisphere countries.
---
[02:30:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9048s) The 2027 Egyptian Total Solar Eclipse
The conversation shifts to astronomy as Galante brings up the upcoming total solar eclipse scheduled for **August 2, 2027**. The eclipse will feature a rare total blackout lasting roughly 6 minutes and 22 seconds over Luxor and the Red Sea in Egypt, making it one of the longest land-based totality events in modern history. Rogan jokes that experiencing a six-minute eclipse directly over the pyramids of Egypt would look like the return of ancient aliens.
Rogan recalls watching a total solar eclipse two years prior, noting how eerie it was when the surrounding wildlife went completely silent minutes before totality. They reflect on how ancient civilizations must have reacted to eclipses without scientific context, likely resorting to immediate human sacrifices to appease the gods. Rogan marvels at the mathematical coincidence that the Moon's size and distance from Earth perfectly align to cover the Sun's disk while leaving the visible solar corona exposed around its edges.
- **2027 Egyptian Eclipse:** Total solar eclipse featuring approximately **6 minutes and 22 seconds** of totality over Egypt and the Red Sea on August 2, 2027.
- **Animal Behavior:** Wildlife exhibits noticeable silence and behavioral shifts immediately leading up to solar totality.
[02:32:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9155s) The Perfect Geometry of Eclipses and Hollow Moon Theories
Joe Rogan and Forrest Galante marvel at the cosmic coincidence of solar eclipses: even though the Sun is vastly larger than the Moon, the Moon sits at the precise distance where it perfectly covers the solar disk, resembling "an Oreo and the cream." Rogan introduces one of the wilder conspiracy theories circulating online—the idea that the Moon is actually an artificial, hollow satellite placed in orbit by extraterrestrials to stabilize Earth's axial tilt and make life possible. While acknowledging that the Moon’s large relative size genuinely stabilizes Earth's climate and ocean tides, Rogan notes how its unique scale feeds into fringe ideas.
To explore the mechanics behind these theories, Young Jamie pulls up data showing that the Moon is the fifth largest moon in the solar system. While dwarfed by the massive moons of Jupiter and Saturn, it is unusually huge relative to its parent planet, leading astronomers to view the Earth-Moon system almost as a "double planet." Rogan brings up a famous seismic test where an object dropped on the lunar surface caused the Moon to "ring like a bell," which conspiracy theorists cite as proof of a hollow interior.
- The Moon is the 5th largest natural satellite in the solar system, with a diameter roughly equal to the width of the contiguous United States.
- The phrase "the Moon rang like a bell" stems from November 1969 (Apollo 12), when NASA intentionally crashed the lunar module's ascent stage into the lunar surface.
- Seismometers placed by astronauts recorded reverberations lasting nearly an hour because the Moon's cold, bone-dry rock lacks water to absorb and dampen shockwaves.
---
[02:36:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9380s) "Spaceship Moon" and the Internet's Craziest Rabbit Holes
Continuing down the rabbit hole, Jamie searches Wikipedia for the "Hollow Moon" and "Spaceship Moon" hypotheses. Rogan and Galante read through the origins of the theory, laughing at how far people go to explain natural phenomena with elaborate sci-fi narratives, such as hidden alien bases on the far side of the Moon or massive titanium hulls under the dust.
Galante admits he loves diving into these bizarre online spaces like 4chan and Reddit, noting that "#spaceisfake" is one of his favorite topics to browse. They debate whether these theories start as genuine beliefs or as elaborate Internet pranks engineered by trolls to see if gullible communities will latch onto them and form social groups.
- The "Spaceship Moon" hypothesis was popularized in 1970 by Soviet scientists Mikhail Vasin and Alexander Shcherbakov, who proposed the Moon was an artificial shell engineered to withstand asteroid impacts.
- Galante jokes that cryptid forums and conspiracy groups give "unfuckable white guys looking for cryptids" a sense of community and something to do on weekends.
---
[02:38:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9532s) Cryptids vs. Undiscovered Reality: The Mud Snake Legend
When Rogan asks if any cryptids carry actual scientific validity, Galante takes a pragmatic stance. While he loves discussing cryptids for fun, he remains skeptical of legendary monsters like Bigfoot. However, he highlights a real-world pattern: local folklore often hides real, undocumented species that mainstream science ignores until someone investigates.
Galante shares an example of rural village stories describing hidden animals—such as a subterranean snake that lives deep beneath crop soil and only strikes when farmers dig. While locals treat it as an urban legend or "cryptid," the creature often turns out to be a real, burrowing reptile that scientists simply never bothered to survey because nobody thought to look in the mud. Rogan laments modern society's arrogance in assuming humanity has cataloged every living creature on Earth.
> "There is a weird arrogance that we have in 2026 because we have uncovered so much... an arrogant assumption that we have an accurate audit of all the animals on the planet."
---
[02:40:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9643s) The "Speciation Race" and Flaws in Academic Science
Galante launches into a critique of how scientific funding and academic incentives corrupt wildlife research. Rather than focusing on meaningful conservation, researchers are often pressured to divide existing populations into new sub-species based on minor genetic or geographic variations—a phenomenon Galante calls the "speciation race."
By splitting a single widespread species into four separate micro-species across different patches of a mountain, scientists can publish new papers and secure limited grant money. However, Galante points out that this hyper-fragmentation actively harms conservation: splitting a species makes each individual group seem less critically important, diluting public concern and conservation priorities.
- Scientists split single species (like a single frog type) into multiple distinct species over minor physical or geographic differences to publish papers and claim fresh grant funding.
- Splitting populations can backfire politically: if a species is divided into four distinct names, people care less if one sub-group goes extinct, reasoning that the others still exist.
---
[02:41:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9711s) Broken Systems in Conservation: Why Scientists Fight Each Other
Galante reveals he is currently writing a book exposing the systemic flaws in wildlife biology and conservation funding. He explains that many scientists entering the field are naturally introverted or socially awkward. As they rise through academia and become department heads, they find themselves competing for a tiny, static pool of financial resources.
Instead of collaborating to save endagered wildlife, researchers spend their careers arguing over technicalities and attempting to disprove rival studies to secure grant money. Galante illustrates this dynamic using the studio setup: rather than working together to protect a target animal, researchers tear each other down because the system cannot fund everyone at once.
> "All three of us can't be funded to save that species... so now we're all fighting each other to save the thing that we all care about because the resource pool is so small."
---
[02:43:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9810s) Simplifying Conservation and the Role of Mass Media
Galante argues that conservation needs to be stripped of overly complex academic jargon and made simple for the general public. At its core, conservation is measurable by a straightforward metric: *Are there more animals in the habitat now than when you started?*
To explain how simple solutions can be obscured by academic papers, Galante cites the battle against *chytrid fungus*, a deadly pathogen devastating amphibian populations globally. Researchers discovered that building simple "frog hotels"—inexpensive brick structures that warm up in the sun—allows frogs to incubate their bodies to temperatures that naturally kill off the fungus. Galante stresses that communicating these tangible, actionable solutions through platforms like YouTube and TV expands public interest, growing the total pool of conservation funding for everyone.
- Conservation success should be judged simply: if an area starts with 1,000 frogs and management increases the population to 2,000 while sustaining the ecosystem, the project succeeded.
- Chytrid fungus (*Chytridiomycosis*) is a widespread fungal disease destroying global amphibian populations.
- "Frog hotels" are simple, low-tech brick shelters that raise a frog's body temperature enough to naturally bake off the chytrid fungal infection.
- Rogan and Galante cite Sir David Attenborough as the ultimate gold standard for wildlife communication, noting he was the first to document wild chimpanzees hunting and eating monkeys.
<ElicitationsGroup message="Explore more from this episode:">
<Elicitation label="Walk through the next section of this interview" query="Please provide the walkthrough for part 13 of this transcript."/>
<Elicitation label="Summarize Galante's key conservation arguments" query="What are Forrest Galante's main critiques of modern wildlife conservation and how does he propose fixing them?"/>
</ElicitationsGroup>
Here's a detailed walkthrough of this portion of the transcript.
[02:46:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9980s) "Pickle Jar" Science vs. Real-World Fieldwork
Forrest Galante critiques the modern scientific establishment, pointing out how many world-leading experts have never actually seen or touched a living specimen of the species they study. He recounts a trip where he flew to the opposite side of the globe alongside a "world-leading authority" on a specific shark species who had published over 50 academic papers on it. On day one, when Forrest suggested gearing up to dive into the water, she revealed she didn't know how to swim, had never been in the ocean, and had only ever dissected dead specimens in a lab or studied them in "pickle jars." Forrest argues that a local villager who fishes and eats that shark daily possesses far greater functional authority than an academic whose knowledge is purely theoretical and anatomical.
While Joe Rogan questions whether physical contact is strictly necessary to study an animal, Forrest clarifies that direct "observational knowledge" of the creature in its natural habitat should be a mandatory requirement for anyone deemed an expert. They contrast armchair academics with field biologists and lifelong hunters or fishermen who spend decades studying live animal behavior without receiving institutional credit.
- **50 published papers**: The academic background of the shark authority Forrest worked with, despite her never having seen a live specimen or swam in the ocean.
- **Observational vs. Scientific data**: Forrest asserts true authority requires both lab metrics (e.g., tooth counts, canine measurements) and live behavioral observations.
---
[02:48:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10089s) *Chimp Empire*, Human Presence, and the Limits of Mutual Respect
Joe brings up the documentary *Chimp Empire* (referred to in conversation as *Chimp Nation*), praising the researchers embedded with chimpanzee troops in Uganda for over 20 years. He and Forrest discuss how this long-term, non-intrusive habituation allows wild animals to treat humans as a neutral part of their environment rather than an anomaly. By strictly adhering to protocols—such as staying at least 20 yards away, withholding food, and avoiding direct eye contact—the scientists integrated seamlessly into the chimps' world, capturing candid, natural behavior without alarming the troop.
However, Forrest emphasizes that this level of mutual tolerance cannot be achieved with every species. While highly intelligent social creatures like chimps can learn to ignore habituated humans, instinct-driven predators like crocodiles will attack and eat a human regardless of how many years they are observed.
- **20-yard protocol**: The minimum distance researchers maintained around the wild chimpanzee troop to avoid disrupting their natural behavior or provoking aggression.
- **The "Space Suit" analogy**: Joe notes that animals react wildly to sudden, unfamiliar intrusions, but once a strange presence becomes predictable, they resume normal activities.
---
[02:50:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10222s) Werner Herzog, *Grizzly Man*, and *Happy People*
The discussion pivots to extreme animal interactions and nature filmmaking. When Joe asks if any other project matched the observational depth of *Chimp Empire*, Forrest jokingly references Timothy Treadwell in *Grizzly Man*, noting that Treadwell's attempt to live among grizzly bears "didn't end well." Joe humorously speculates that Treadwell's death was essentially "suicide by bear" and suggests director Werner Herzog intentionally injected dark comedy into the film's editing. Joe points to a dramatic smash cut where a local sheriff bluntly calls Treadwell "retarded" as evidence of Herzog's subtle comedic timing.
Joe shares his deep admiration for Herzog, highlighting another of his documentaries, *Happy People: A Year in the Taiga*. He describes how the Siberian trappers featured in the film live a pure, subsistence lifestyle—hunting, fishing, trapping, and riding snowmobiles through the wilderness with their dogs—seemingly devoid of modern mental illness.
> "When you're alone in nature, you have to think about your surroundings and what you're doing. And you don't have time to sit and manifest on these things that create depression and anxiety."
- ***Happy People: A Year in the Taiga***: Werner Herzog's 2010 documentary following indigenous and local fur trappers living along the Yenisei River in Siberia.
- **Mental health in nature**: Both host and guest agree that living off the land removes modern social comparison and overthinking, though Forrest notes that society still requires "the red and the blue"—both the wilderness survivalists and the city-bound innovators who invent tools like snowmobiles.
---
[02:54:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10440s) Cage Diving with Crocodiles and Wrapping Up
As the podcast episode comes to a close, Joe watches video footage on screen showing Forrest suspended inside a underwater cage surrounded by massive, rolling crocodiles. Joe expresses genuine shock, pointing out that meat was tied all along the outside of the cage and calling the setup look "so flimsy." Forrest laughingly admits it was a "terrible idea," explaining that they built the cage themselves without engineering expertise and rigged it using an unverified cable sourced from a nearby local village. Despite the danger, Forrest defends the stunt, noting that the footage successfully educates viewers on crocodile behavior and death rolls.
To wrap up the show, Forrest plugs his upcoming Discovery Channel special for Shark Week, *Alien Sharks: Untamed America*, which highlights unusual shark species along the American coastlines.
- ***Alien Sharks: Untamed America***: Forrest Galante's Shark Week special premiere airing July 29.
- **39 years**: The age of Discovery's Shark Week institution, matching Forrest's own age.
- **Platform focus**: Forrest notes that outside of television specials, he is putting the majority of his content creation efforts directly into his YouTube channel.
<FollowUp label="Want to dive into Forrest's encounter with the crocodile cage, or explore his other Shark Week expeditions?" query="Tell me more about Forrest Galante's wild wildlife encounters and his Shark Week specials."/>
## Notable quotes
> [01:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=114s) It's the same as if you or I went to India or Africa. It's like we kind of communicate. We don't eat the same food. We look different. And yet to us an orca is an orca... — Forrest Galante
> [30:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1843s) It feels like the legends are getting fewer and further between... like almost over generational time, it's disappearing.
> [46:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2767s) The world is a bunch of different things. It's not just Santa Monica... It's important because otherwise we live in a bubble.
> [01:01:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3702s) It just shows you how predatory polar bears are and how they don't give a fuck. It's just trying to get at that guy.
> [01:21:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4904s) There's a cockroach under your carpet here listening to us somewhere right now.
> [01:32:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5542s) Someday in the future we're going to look back at that the way people today look back at slavery. We're going to say these are intelligent creatures that just don't have the ability to manipulate their environment like we do.
> [01:44:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6257s) Imagine you have a 10 mm semi-automatic pistol and you have to rack the slide... The bear's coming. You're already dead.
> [01:57:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7020s) this is why socialism is never going to work—if people aren't rewarded, they aren't going to work hard enough to do anything really spectacular. — Joe Rogan
> [02:02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7323s) They've taken such a rich and important part of Africa—one of the most abundant freshwater fisheries in the world—and destroyed it because they're 'helping' by handing out mosquito nets. Now you have people with malaria *and* hunger.
> [02:23:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8615s) They just look exaggerated to the point where they look fake. They look like Hulk lions. — Joe Rogan
> [02:38:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9532s) There is a weird arrogance that we have in 2026 because we have uncovered so much... an arrogant assumption that we have an accurate audit of all the animals on the planet.
> [02:41:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9711s) All three of us can't be funded to save that species... so now we're all fighting each other to save the thing that we all care about because the resource pool is so small.
> [02:50:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10222s) When you're alone in nature, you have to think about your surroundings and what you're doing. And you don't have time to sit and manifest on these things that create depression and anxiety. — Joe Rogan
## Mentioned
Joe Rogan, Forrest Galante, PowerfulJRE, Discovery Channel, Shark Week, Alien Sharks: Untamed America, Puma, Bigfoot, Orca, Ocean sunfish (Mola mola), Run Nation (RNC), Oklahoma drill, NFL, APOE4 gene, David Tua, John Ruiz, Mark Hunt, Vikings, South Park, Joe Rogan Questions Everything, Duncan Trussell, Your Mom's House, Gigantopithecus, Vantara, Anant Ambani, San Diego Zoo, Long Toy, The Explorers Club, Champawat Tiger, Jim Corbett, Steve Rinella, Mammal Watching, Saola (Pseudoryx nghetinhensis), Rob Timmins, Bill Robichaud, Loch Ness Monster, Jamie Young, Younger Dryas, Comedy Mothership, Sunset Strip, Brian Redban, Creek and the Cave, Vulcan Gas Company, Gordon Ryan, John Danaher, New Wave Jiu-Jitsu, B-Team Jiu-Jitsu, Craig Jones, Nicky Ryan, Ethan Crelinsten, Shintaro Higashi, Chewjitsu, Gracie Barra, 10th Planet, Amal Easton, Easton BJJ, Perplexity AI, Producer Jamie, King Henry III, King Haakon IV, Tower of London, River Thames, Colosseum, Parthenon, Dr. Charles 'Jolly' West, CIA, H. P. Albarelli Jr., Fort Detrick, Sandoz Pharmaceutical, Frank Olson, Plum Island Animal Disease Center, Evan Hafer, Black Rifle Coffee Company, Jim Miller, DARPA, UC Berkeley, Lytle S. Adams, Hvaldimir, Dr. John C. Lilly, Margaret Howe Lovatt, Wikie the Orca, Marineland Aquarium (Antibes), Phil Demers, Marineland Canada, SeaWorld, Anderson et al., Colossal Biosciences, Ben Lamm, Colossal, Fred Bear, Aaron Snyder, Bill Gates, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, NBC, CBS, CNN, Department of Justice, Microsoft Corp., Jeffrey Epstein, Melinda Gates, Les Wexner, Eric Weinstein, Los Alamos National Laboratory, The New York Times, Karl Ammann, Jamie Pulliam, Mikhail Vasin, Alexander Shcherbakov, NASA, Sir David Attenborough, Chimp Empire, Timothy Treadwell, Grizzly Man, Werner Herzog, Happy People: A Year in the Taiga
Wildlife biologist Forrest Galante and Joe Rogan explore the gap between biological reality and popular myth, arguing that real animal intelligence, field observation, and evolutionary pressures are routinely overshadowed by academic competition and viral folklore.
Animal Cognition, Captivity, and De-Extinction Nuance (92:22)
Galante and Rogan emphasize that existing species exhibit complex cognitive adaptations that surpass popular cryptid legends. Galante details how distinct orca pods possess unique dialects and specialized hunting cultures, such as recent observations of pods repeatedly headbutting 600-pound ocean sunfish for stimulation. He also describes witnessing an injured elephant at India's Vantara rescue facility that learned to use its trunk as a fourth weight-bearing leg after a collision. While both criticize commercial marine parks for confining cetaceans in concrete tanks, Galante defends top-tier accredited institutions like the San Diego Zoo for running vital species survival and genetic preservation programs.
Addressing genetic engineering, Rogan recounts handling modified wolf pups (Romulus, Remus, and Khaleesi) at Colossal Biosciences. Rogan dismisses academic disputes over whether the specimens represent "true" resurrected dire wolves or gene-edited gray wolves, arguing that phenotypic and behavioral results supersede taxonomic categorization.
Academic Distortions and "Pickle Jar" Science (160:43)
Galante critiques the institutional structure of biological research, warning that competition over a limited pool of grant money drives an artificial "speciation race." Under this incentive model, researchers are motivated to split single, widespread animal populations into isolated micro-species based on minor genetic or geographic variations to generate papers and funding. Galante argues this practice damages actual conservation, as fragmenting a species dilutes public urgency when any single sub-population disappears.
Galante also highlights a growing divide between field biology and classroom academia. He recounts joining an international expedition with an accredited shark researcher who had authored over 50 papers on a target species, only to discover she had never swum in open water or examined a living specimen outside preserved lab jars. Galante contends that functional authority on wild behavior often resides more with local fishers and field observers than with desk-bound academics reliant solely on theoretical analysis.
Unintended Ecological Harm and Evolutionary Filters (122:03)
Galante outlines the perils of top-down conservation and philanthropy without ground-level awareness, citing the Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation's anti-malaria intervention in the Cahora Bassa Delta along the Zambezi River. The mass distribution of fine-mesh mosquito nets resulted in local riverine communities repurposing them as fishing nets in delicate delta nurseries. Because the micro-mesh trapped juvenile fish indiscriminately, the practice collapsed local fish breeding stocks and led to food shortages.
Connecting environmental pressures to evolution, Rogan and Galante discuss how extreme conditions shape physical biology across both animals and humans. They compare the natural selection seen in historic ocean voyagers colonizing remote Pacific islands to an isolated pride of lions in the Okavango Delta depicted in the documentary *Relentless Enemies*. Stranded on an island and forced to hunt Cape buffalo, the female lions experienced rapid selection for extreme muscularity and size, where any failure to adapt resulted in fatal kicks and starvation.
Cryptozoological Debunking Versus Verified Elusive Species (30:43)
The discussion contrasts widespread cryptozoology hoaxes with authentic historical and living species. Galante and Rogan dismiss claims of upright Bigfoot hominids or living Congo dinosaurs (*Mokele-mbembe*), noting that prehistoric apes like *Gigantopithecus* were quadrupedal rather than bipedal based on scarce jaw and tooth fossils, while the iconic 1934 Loch Ness "surgeon's photograph" was exposed in 1994 as a toy submarine fitted with a sculpted head. Similarly, Galante explains that reports of the Congolese "Bondo ape" represent an isolated group of chimpanzees with prominent sagittal crests for jaw muscle attachment rather than a distinct ape species.
However, Galante maintains that dense, poorly mapped terrains like the Annamite Range, the Amazon, and New Guinea still harbor overlooked megafauna. He points to the saola (*Pseudoryx nghetinhensis*), which went undocumented by Western science until 1992, cautioning that dismissive attitudes among mainstream researchers risk ignoring real biological discoveries.
The source demonstrates that understanding wildlife requires direct field immersion and critical scrutiny of academic incentives. While vast, remote habitats continue to conceal undocumented species, effective conservation depends on moving beyond detached theoretical modeling, bureaucratic grant rivalries, and unverified viral internet myths.
精炼阅读摘要
野生动物生物学家 Forrest Galante 与 Joe Rogan 探讨了动物智力、严苛自然选择与现代生态保护体制的深层矛盾，指出相比于虚构的神秘生物，真实的自然演化与生物适应力远为复杂。Galante 严厉批评了学术界争夺经费导致的物种细分异化，并揭示了盲目技术干预与动物军事化实验所带来的生态与伦理危机。
真实动物智力与严苛的自然选择机制 (1:54)
Galante 与 Rogan 认为，人类热衷于神化大脚怪等神秘生物，却忽视了真实动物的惊人能力。例如虎鲸拥有高度复杂的脑部结构与独特的群体方言，不同族群甚至因文化隔阂而无法交流或共享食物偏好；近期记录还显示虎鲸以极快速度撞碎重达600磅的翻车鱼（Mola mola），展现出类似游戏或宣泄无聊的攻击行为。此外，在印度由亿万富翁 Anant Ambani 资助的 Vantara 野生动物保护中心，一头腿部因车祸重伤的大象学会将象鼻紧贴地面作为第四条腿支撑行走，证实了大型哺乳动物面对创伤时的认知与代偿能力。
两位对话者指出，严苛的生存环境构成了人类自身的自然选择机制。例如波利尼西亚人乘坐小型独木舟远洋横渡太平洋，以及维京人定居冰岛的极度严寒，都作为物理筛选机制，促成了萨摩亚人群体（如拳击手 David Tua 和综合格斗选手 Mark Hunt）与冰岛大力士的身体素质集中度。然而 Rogan 强调，人类真正的演化优势在于跨个体的技术积累与智力共享，这使得体格并不突出的个体也能借助步枪或现代高精度复合弓等工具，在远距离压制如科迪亚克棕熊等陆地顶级掠食者。
神秘动物学迷思与真实物种的演化实证 (30:43)
对话系统性地辨析了网络神秘生物热潮与严谨生物学的界限。网络上广为流传的“大脚怪尸体”最终被证实仅为具象烘焙蛋糕；针对史前巨猿（Gigantopithecus）的直立行走假说，最新古生物学证据基于稀缺的下颌与牙齿化石推测其更可能是类似于红毛猩猩的四足行走动物；而著名的1934年尼斯湖水怪“外科医生照片”早在1994年即被证实是由装配了木制头部的玩具潜水艇精心制作的骗局，诸多水怪目击本质上是对大型欧洲鲟鱼等生物的误认。
相比之下，真实的隐蔽物种常因科研定式而被长期忽视。Galante 提到越南和老挝安南山脉的中南大羚（Saola），直到1992年才正式被西方科学界记录，曾有一头捕获个体在被全面研究前即死亡并被村民食用；刚果传说中的“邦多猿”（Bondo ape）并非全新怪兽，而是颅顶具备矢状嵴、下颌肌群极发达的大型隔离黑猩猩种群。此外，在博茨瓦纳奥卡万戈三角洲，被洪水隔绝在孤岛上的母狮因只能捕食强悍的非洲水牛（Cape buffalo），在数代之间经历了极端的岛屿巨型化选择，体格肌肉几乎逼近雄狮，展示了自然选择在封闭生态位中的即时塑造力。
“标本罐科学”弊端与学术界物种细分异化 (160:43)
Galante 揭露了当前野生动物生物学界在经费分配驱动下的“物种形成竞赛”（speciation race）。科研人员为了在有限的资助池中争夺资源并发表学术论文，倾向于将分布广泛的单一物种因微弱的地理或基因变异强行拆分为数个独立的“微物种”（例如将同一山脉不同区域的蛙类拆分为多个新种）。这种过度分类直接损害了保护工作：它人为稀释了公众对物种濒危程度的警惕性，使社会在某个亚群灭绝时产生“其他亚群尚存”的虚假安全感。
现代科学建制中还存在严重的“标本罐科学”（pickle jar science）倾向，大量学者完全脱离实地环境。Galante 回忆自己曾与一位发表了50余篇学术论文的权威鲨鱼专家合作科考，抵达现场后才发现该学者完全不会游泳、从未踏入大海，毕生研究均基于实验室解剖与甲醛标本罐。Galante 强调，长期捕捞并接触活体的当地渔民在功能认知上远胜于纯理论学者，动物学权威必须建立在对自然栖息地中活体动物的长期行为观察之上，而非单纯依赖封闭圈养或纸面模型。
外部技术干预的生态灾难与动物工具化 (122:03)
对话严厉审视了缺乏生态系统意识的慈善干预所带来的灾难性次生后果。Galante 详细叙述了比尔及梅琳达·盖茨基金会在非洲赞比西河谷卡霍拉巴萨（Cahora Bassa）三角洲推行的防疟疾蚊帐分发项目：由于当地原住民依靠传统柴火浓烟驱蚊，数以百万计的细孔尼龙蚊帐被当地人改制为捕鱼网。由于网眼极其微小，这些渔网在河口育苗区无差别捕杀了成百上千万的幼鱼，直接导致本地鱼类繁殖种群彻底崩溃，诱发了广泛的长期饥荒和对外部援助的恶性依赖。
与此同时，人类长期试图将高智力生物改造为军事情报工具，其尝试多伴随着伦理困境与荒谬失败。冷战时期 CIA 推行的“窃听猫”（Acoustic Kitty）项目耗资巨大，通过外科手术将麦克风与天线缝合入猫体内，却在首次实地任务中被出租车碾压毙命；尽管 DARPA 在2009年已成功通过植入微芯片和电池研发出遥控机械甲虫，但强行利用海豚执行水雷引爆或在混凝土海洋馆中圈养高度依赖社交与声呐感知的虎鲸，已越来越被现代社会视作一种不可接受的伦理倒退。
Galante 总结指出，当前生物多样性危机的根源不仅在于栖息地丧失，更在于象牙塔学术体制与实际保护脱节、资金争夺扭曲科研目标，以及技术官僚在未充分理解生态因果链前的鲁莽干预。唯有建立在长期野外真实观察与完整生态系统尊重之上的保护范式，才能避免人为造就新的生态灾难。
Detailed notes — zh
## Background
本期节目由 PowerfulJRE 频道于 2026 年 8 月 24 日发布在 YouTube 平台。节目嘉宾福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）是一位国际野生动物探险家、环保主义者兼作家，他在节目中结合自身新上线的探索频道（Discovery Channel）“鲨鱼周”专题片《异形鲨鱼：狂野美洲》，与主持人乔·罗根展开深度对谈。
## TL;DR
探险家福雷斯特·加兰特与乔·罗根围绕野生动物见闻、自然演化与荒野探险展开广泛探讨，分享了近距离接触野生虎鲸、印度万塔拉（Vantara）大象救援中心、探访基因复活恐狼以及被困自制铁笼遭遇鳄鱼“死亡翻滚”等惊险经历。两人深入辨析了动物高阶认知、批判了社交平台上的 AI 动物假视频与大脚怪等迷思，并追溯了巨型短面熊与史前弓猎的力学对抗。对话还进一步延展至学术界“物种分化竞赛”的虚妄、防疟蚊帐摧毁赞比西河流域生态的慈善反噬，以及冷战时期动物间谍和生化实验等隐秘历史。整场交流兼具野外求生的第一手硬核纪实与对人类干预自然的批判性反思。
## Atmosphere & style
全片充斥着硬核野外探索的荷尔蒙与猎奇色彩，在命悬一线的荒野冒险实录与严密硬朗的演化生物学探讨之间自如切换。加兰特绘声绘色的惊险遇险经历与罗根敏锐连贯的追问碰撞出极强的故事张力，时而因揭穿网络恶搞与荒谬流言而爆发出肆意大笑，时而因触及动物悲惨境遇及生态破坏而陷入严肃沉思。整体听感仿佛置身于深夜的营火长谈，既有对未知巨兽与深海生灵的纯粹敬畏，又充满对现代文明盲目傲慢的冷峻叩问。
## Bulletin
- [01:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6000s) Forrest Galante 分享了近距离接触生物复活企业 Colossal Biosciences 培育的保密“恐狼”幼崽（如四个月大重约40磅的雌性幼崽“卡丽熙”），并讨论了学术界对其究竟是完全复活还是仅表达特定基因的争议。
- [02:02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7323s) 盖茨基金会曾在莫桑比克赞比西河流域发放细密防疟疾蚊帐，但当地居民挪作渔网使用，导致约0.5毫米的极细网眼将初生幼鱼无差别绝户，摧毁了关键育幼地并引发渔业崩溃与严重饥荒。
- [50:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3041s) 大熊猫的“国宝”地位实为1949年后的现代文化建构，在商周青铜器、唐诗、宋画及明清小说等中国古典文学艺术典籍中几乎完全缺席明确形象记载。
- [37:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2226s) 得克萨斯州私人圈养的老虎总数已超过全球野外野生老虎的总和（全球野生老虎仅约5,000只），展示了极为罕见的异宠圈养生态。
## Key takeaways
- [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1s) 黑美洲狮传闻在生物学界至今未得到任何确凿证实，野外目击、路杀与圈养记录皆为零，网络热门照片均为黑化美洲豹或黑豹伪造。
- [05:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=334s) 反复的亚脑震荡物理冲击即使未导致当场昏厥，也会造成严重积累性脑组织损伤，大幅增加罹患慢性创伤性脑病（CTE）的风险。
- [16:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1015s) 步氏巨猿目前出土的化石仅限于少许下颌骨与牙齿碎片，学术界对其是否能完全双足直立行走仍存有巨大争议。
- [23:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1382s) 柏油路与坚硬水泥路面的强震动反冲是摧垮役用大象脚趾骨与关节的关键元凶，其损害甚至远超过大象背负重物骑乘。
- [26:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1579s) 牛羊的真角终生生长且不脱落，若受创生长畸变可能直接刺入头骨；印尼鹿豚的上獠牙若未磨损折断，也会向后刺穿额骨致死。
- [38:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2330s) 奥斯汀作为自由派城市被持枪的保守派环绕，形成如同生态系统中捕食者与猎物般的制衡与动态稳定。
- [54:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3275s) 大熊猫保留着食肉目短消化道却以低营养竹子为主食，其繁衍本能与生存意志脆弱，但“大熊猫是人工工程培育产物”纯属现代网络阴谋论。
- [01:01:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3702s) 北极熊具备横渡100至200英里冰海的耐力，且对人类具有主动、冷酷的捕食意图，与主要因领地自卫伤人的灰熊截然不同。
- [01:21:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4905s) 冷战时期美苏广泛探索动物军事化应用，包括美军的蝙蝠炸弹、海豚扫雷、CIA声学小猫以及现代DARPA微型遥控昆虫技术。
- [01:35:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5713s) 人类将“改造物理环境与制造工具”视作智力唯一标准存在严重偏见，三维深海中顶端掠食者虎鲸等鲸豚是具备极高认知情商的“海洋人类”。
- [01:37:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5874s) 北美黑狼的黑色皮毛并非原生演化，而是古代家犬显性突变基因通过杂交事件逆向渗入野生灰狼种群的结果。
- [01:44:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6257s) 新墨西哥州白沙国家公园发现的22,000年前人类足迹推翻了克洛维斯优先假说，也否定了巨型短面熊完全封锁白令陆桥的理论。
- [01:58:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7105s) 刚果河流域的“邦多猿”并非全新人猿物种，而是因长期地理隔离而演化出体型巨大、矢状嵴显著的高攻击性黑猩猩亚群。
- [02:37:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9442s) 学术界为争夺科研经费存在“物种过度细分”的不良倾向，这分散了资源并削弱了公众对真正濒危物种的保护紧迫感。
- [02:43:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9797s) 当代动物科研存在象牙塔标本研究与野外实际观测严重脱节的弊病，部分顶尖论文作者甚至从未在野外接触过活体研究对象。
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1s) 黑美洲狮的传闻与猫科动物的黑化现象
节目开场，乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与野外探险家兼环保主义者福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）热情寒暄。罗根提到自己近期在社交媒体上看到并转发给福雷斯特的一段红外相机拍摄到的“黑豹”影像，并向他请教：北美大陆上是否真的存在黑化变异的美洲狮（Mountain Lion / Puma）？
加兰特给出了斩钉截铁的否定回答。从科学纪录来看，世界上迄今从未发现过任何一只黑化美洲狮——无论是野外目击、路杀标本，还是人工圈养繁殖记录，这一概率都为零。尽管如此，每年依然有无数人（例如加兰特在佛罗里达州的朋友）言之凿凿地声称在自家后院见识过黑色美洲狮。针对罗根发送的那张每隔三四年就会在网络上疯传一次的热门红外相机照片，加兰特指出，画面中的动物实际上是一只黑美洲豹（Jaguar）或黑豹（Black Leopard）。即使这些猫科动物发生了黑化突变，仔细观察仍能在其黑亮皮毛下隐约辨认出原本的玫瑰花斑纹（Rosettes）。
- **美洲狮黑化记录**：生物学界至今未证实任何确凿的黑化美洲狮个体。
- **黑化大猫的特征**：黑美洲豹与黑花豹虽呈黑色，但底层的环状斑纹依然存在。
- **罕见现象心理学**：人们往往过度痴迷罕见物种；如果美洲狮原本全为黑色，偶然出现的黄褐色个体同样会引发轰动。
---
### [01:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=114s) 虎鲸的神秘智慧与下水近距离接触的经历
从人类对罕见未知生物（如大脚怪 Bigfoot）的狂热出发，两人将话题转向了比虚构生物更为惊艳的现实物种——虎鲸（Orca）。加兰特与罗根感叹，比起虚构的大脚怪，大猩猩和虎鲸的存在本身就极其不可思议。虎鲸不仅拥有巨大且复杂的大脑，还进化出了人类至今无法完全破译的方言系统、独特的饮食文化以及社群习性。不同海域的虎鲸族群甚至存在语言不通的文化隔阂，差异之大就像一个不会讲当地语言的人突然去到印度或非洲一样。更令科学家着迷的是，野外虎鲸几乎从不主动袭击人类。
加兰特分享了约三年前在墨西哥下加利福尼亚（Baja California）的一次惊险亲历。当时他和朋友迈克（Mike）正乘坐一艘简易的小渔船（Panga），偶遇了一群路过的“过境型”虎鲸（Transient Orcas，主要捕食海豹、海狮等海洋哺乳动物）。抱着用生命冒险的心态，他们直接将船开到鲸群前方跳入海中。尽管雄性头鲸始终在远处警惕护航，但几头雌鲸和幼鲸主动游了过来，以极近的距离绕着加兰特两人转了两圈，用巨大的眼睛好奇地打量他们，确认这些两足生物“既无聊又不能吃”后便径直游走。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 虎鲸文化差异与社群特征
accDescr: 展示虎鲸不同族群在语言、饮食与行为模式上的高度分化与智慧特征。
subgraph OrcaTraits["虎鲸的高度智慧与社会分化"]
A["复杂大脑与认知能力"] --> B["方言与声学系统"]
A --> C["专性捕食习性"]
B --> D["不同族群间无法直接沟通"]
C --> E["定居型：主要食鱼 / 过境型：猎杀哺乳动物"]
end
subgraph HumanInteraction["野外与人类互动"]
F["对人类保持高度克制"]
G["野外极少主动攻击人类"]
end
OrcaTraits --> HumanInteraction
```
---
### [03:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=209s) 虎鲸撞碎翻车鱼与人类的硬碰硬冲撞运动（Run Nation）
谈及虎鲸展现出的惊人爆发力，罗根提及一段近期引起轰动的海洋生态录像：一头虎鲸高速冲撞一只巨大的翻车鱼（Mola mola，可重达数百磅），在猛烈撞击的瞬间直接将翻车鱼撞得四分五裂。加兰特解释称，这是过去大约半年内才被科学界和摄影师最新记录到的一种行为，虎鲸似乎并非单纯为了捕食，而是在通过极速撞击将鱼类彻底“引爆”，这种带有娱乐戏谑性质的暴力举动被加兰特戏称为“就像无聊的乡下牛仔在马路上故意开车碾压乌龟找乐子”。
这种纯粹的力量碰撞让加兰特联想到了网络上爆火的硬碰硬极限对抗运动——Run Nation（RNC）。加兰特透露自己是该赛事的狂热粉丝，这种比赛源于橄榄球中的“俄克拉荷马冲撞训练”（Oklahoma Drill），两名强壮的选手在没有护具的情况下全速奔跑对撞，场面极其血腥暴力，甚至经常出现双方同时撞晕倒地的情况。
---
### [05:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=334s) 橄榄球、脑震荡与不可忽视的慢性创伤性脑病（CTE）
在津巴布韦长大的加兰特坦言，由于南部非洲深厚的橄榄球文化熏陶，自己至今仍偶尔会打橄榄球，但每打一场比赛往往需要休养数周。罗根作为资空格斗解说员，立刻严肃地向加兰特普及了脑损伤与亚脑震荡创伤（Subconcussive Trauma）的潜在危机。罗根指出，即便一个人在运动中从未真正昏厥，头部或身体反复遭受震荡依然会导致大脑撞击颅骨内壁，积累严重的脑损伤风险。
罗根援引专门治疗创伤性脑损伤（TBI）的马克·戈登医生（Dr. Mark Gordon）的研究指出，除了美式橄榄球运动员、综合格斗拳手和士兵之外，经常用头顶球的足球运动员、甚至长时间受剧烈颠簸的水上摩托艇（Jet Ski）骑手和重金属“甩头族”（Headbangers），都可能出现慢性创伤性脑病（CTE）的临床症状，表现为严重的短期记忆丧失与思维断片。此外，人体携带的特定基因变异（如 APOE4 基因）还会显著增加个体对 CTE 的易感性。
- **亚脑震荡创伤**：即使没有出现明确脑震荡症状，身体或颈部遭受的剧烈冲击波同样会震荡脑组织。
- **高风险群体**：包括橄榄球运动员、足球头球选手、水上摩托骑手及极限冲撞运动者。
- **遗传易感性**：APOE4 等基因突变会使部分人群在遭受脑部震荡后更易恶化为 CTE。
随后，两人感叹起太平洋岛民（Pacific Islanders）在橄榄球联赛与格斗界所展现出的异于常人的骨骼密度与强悍体魄，并共同回顾了传奇重量级萨摩亚拳手大卫·图阿（David Tua）——他在巅峰期犹如一台移动坦克，曾在比赛开局仅约 30 秒内以摧枯拉朽之势首回合 KO 约翰·鲁伊兹（John Ruiz）。
### [08:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=521s) 极限自然选择：从萨摩亚勇士到冰岛大力士
对击打力量与人体结构的讨论引向了著名踢拳手兼综合格斗家马克·亨特（Mark Hunt）。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）惊叹于亨特那种宛如“一堵实心石墙”、毫无腰身可言的庞大骨架与骇人体格。加兰特回忆起自己当年打橄榄球（rugby）时，最畏惧的就是与拥有这类体格的对手正面冲撞。罗根指出，这些波利尼西亚人与萨摩亚人的先祖当年凭借难以想象的勇气，乘坐简陋狭小的小船横渡浩瀚凶险的太平洋；在严酷的风浪中，大自然无情地剔除掉了一切虚弱因素，唯有身体素质极度强悍、抗击打且适应力超群的个体才能活下来并在岛屿繁衍。
这种残酷的自然选择机制不仅体现在太平洋岛民身上，在大西洋彼岸同样有迹可循。罗根提到了北美黑人顶尖运动员的身体素质溯源，以及冰岛那群屡获世界大力士冠军的强人——这一切都与当年渡海拓荒的维京海盗血脉休戚相关。加兰特赞同道，现代人类总以为自己超然于自然界之外，但无论是殖民冰岛的维京人，还是在恶劣群岛上生存的萨摩亚人，本质上都是自然选择在人类种群中沉淀出的顶级体魄范本。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 人类迁徙中的极端自然选择机制
accDescr: 展示恶劣环境与渡海拓荒如何筛选出超级体格基因
subgraph Selection["极端环境筛选"]
A["漫长渡海拓荒 / 严寒极地"] --> B["淘汰体弱病患与生理劣势"]
B --> C["极少数体魄超群者幸存繁衍"]
end
subgraph Examples["典型地理族群"]
C --> D["萨摩亚 / 波利尼西亚人<br/>(宽厚骨架与爆发力)"]
C --> E["冰岛维京后裔<br/>(顶尖力量大力士)"]
end
```
### [10:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=604s) 人类智力进化的残酷反转：外星人视角下的“地球真人秀”
作为野生动物生物学家的加兰特直言，人类在体能上不仅算不上顶级，甚至根本不处于纯粹肉体力量的食物链顶端。罗根则反驳称，人类之所以主宰地球，是因为我们“只要想杀，就能杀死任何生物”。然而两人旋即达成了更深层次的共识：这种主宰力并非来自个体的肌肉，而是人类大脑进化的独特产物。人类最可怕的演化优势，在于智力成果能够实现技术转移——一个自身毫无运动基因、身体虚弱不堪的人，只需端起一把配有瞄准镜的高精度步枪趴在山脊上，轻轻扣动扳机就能瞬间放倒一头重达1200磅的阿拉斯加科迪亚克棕熊（Kodiak brown bear）。这种将智力成果打包赋能给弱小个体的能力，在整个地球生命史上绝无仅有。
从地外智慧文明的客观视角来看，人类的行径显得极其怪诞且具侵略性。外星生物注视地球时，看到的会是一个极具寄生色彩、不断开采并重构整颗星球的物种。罗根提到《南方公园》（South Park）里的一集经典情节：地球在外星人眼中其实只是一档全宇宙联播的荒诞真人秀（Reality Show），星际观众百无聊赖地看着斑马和长颈鹿打架、人类不断制造混乱。
- 人类依靠工具发明跨越了个体肉体机能的遗传劣势，弱小者借助武器亦能成为顶级掠食者。
- 地球生物圈各司其职、勉强维持平衡，唯有人类以寄生和彻底改造生态的方式扩张。
### [12:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=747s) 社交媒体的多巴胺陷阱与长音频播客的崛起
现实生活早已变成了全人类实时收看的一场超级真人秀。罗根打趣道，如今人们随时刷开社交媒体，都在看今天哪位政客又遭遇了意外或丑闻，全世界的所有信息在同一瞬间倾泻而下。然而，这种高频刺激直接导致了公众注意力的极度碎片化，许多人连一段超过5秒钟的短视频都失去耐性看完。
讽刺的是，与快节奏短视频并驾齐驱的却是长音频播客的爆发。这证明依然有大量听众对真正有深度、有信息量的话题怀有耐心。加兰特坦言自己深陷信息流的“脑残毒药”（brain rot）与多巴胺劫持：即便他清楚自己的 Instagram 推荐流里充斥着半数由 AI 生成的动物伪劣视频，并下定决心克制，手指却总是不自觉地掏出手机刷新。罗根指出，短视频的多巴胺回馈极其空虚，人们在刷完一条所谓的科普短视频后转瞬即忘，根本不会在大脑中沉淀任何记忆。不过罗根也分享了自己的经验，称最近几周他的社交算法被调教得格外精准，只推送引人入胜的优质内容，一旦遇到垃圾内容就迅速划走，以维护纯净的信息流。
### [14:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=859s) 拙劣的 AI 大脚怪与太平洋西北森林里的搜寻往事
谈到糟糕的算法推送，话题转向了近期互联网上满天飞的虚假 AI 内容。加兰特和罗根吐槽了社交平台上荒谬绝伦的大脚怪（Bigfoot）图片：一张看起来像粗糙拍立得风格的 AI 模糊照片，配上“某男子在深山秘密抚养一只幼年大脚怪长达十年”的荒诞文案，评论区竟然有数百名网民深信不疑并大呼不可思议。
罗根回忆起大约在 2011 或 2012 年拍摄科普探秘节目《乔·罗根质问一切》（*Joe Rogan Questions Everything*）时的经历。当时他和喜剧演员邓肯·特鲁塞尔（Duncan Trussell）跟随狂热的大脚怪搜寻者深入太平洋西北部（Pacific Northwest）原始森林扎营数日。罗根调侃说，在那片密林里你最不可能遇见的就是黑人，“你在树林里找到大脚怪的概率都比碰见黑人搜寻者的概率高”，全是一帮在现实中毫无异性吸引力、百无聊赖的白人男子对着摇曳的树叶和阴影捕风捉影。尽管如此，罗根与加兰特承认大脚怪传说本身有着深厚的历史渊源，仅在北美原住民各部落的古老传说中，用来指代这种神秘巨猿的名字就超过了50个。
### [15:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=956s) 荒诞的大脚怪尸体解剖与互联网恶搞文化
屏幕上随即播放起一段网络爆火的恶搞大脚怪视频。画面中，一名男子神色自若地紧贴着一具毛茸茸、腐烂状的大脚怪“尸体”合影。罗根大笑着吐槽，如果这具尸体是真的，旁边的人早就被熏得作呕倒地，而视频中的男子居然还若无其事地对着镜头摆姿势问“我看起来帅吗”。
制作团队随后认出了这名男子：原来他在大约12年前曾以训犬师的奇葩身份登上过汤姆·塞古拉（Tom Segura）的播客节目《你妈妈的家》（*Your Mom's House*）。视频里，该男子甚至一本正经地拿出一把手锯开始切割大脚怪的“残躯”。看着横截面怪异的质感，罗根与加兰特当场笑喷，猜测这所谓的神秘生物遗骸八成是个造型逼真的翻糖蛋糕，男子锯开内部后掏出的甚至是一个做工拙劣的模型脚掌。两人一致认为，这完全是一场彻头彻尾但极具娱乐效果的互联网恶作剧。
### [16:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1015s) 巨猿是否直立行走的争论
乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）和福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）先是拿道具模型打趣，开玩笑说一个穿着工装背带裤且不穿上衣的壮汉“身材练得极好”，大概是整天在野外搬运假大脚怪模型练出来的。随后，话题自然转到了史前灵长类动物步氏巨猿（Gigantopithecus）上。罗根提到，虽然大家都确知巨猿曾真实存在，但他最近读到一些新资料显示，学界对于巨猿是否真正具备“双足直立行走”的能力一直存有巨大争议。
部分现代生物学家认为，巨猿很可能并不像大脚怪传说描绘的那样直立迈步，而是更像体型庞大无匹的红毛猩猩（orangutan），采用四足方式在地面支撑行走。福雷斯特对此感到十分新奇，坦言自己之前并不知道学界否定了其完全直立行走假说。罗根进一步解释说，古生物学家目前挖掘到的巨猿化石极为有限，主要也就是少许下颌骨和牙齿碎片，仅凭这些残缺遗骸确实很难百分之百断定其骨骼结构与运动机制。
### [17:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1067s) 印度大象救援：把象鼻当作“第四条腿”的奇迹
福雷斯特随即分享了自己刚经历的一桩奇事。他刚刚结束在印度的野生动物救援工作，几乎是直接从印度飞抵录音室。在与当地著名的万塔拉（Vantara）野生动物救援机构合作期间，他参与救治了一头遭遇车祸的大象。那头象的一条腿严重受伤，完全无法承重。令人不可思议的是，这头大象并没有像普通动物那样三脚瘸拐着跳跃，而是极其聪明地将自己的长鼻点在地上，当成了第四个肢体支撑向前挪动。
大象的颅骨和头部极其沉重，为了卸去伤腿承受的巨大负荷，它竟然无师自通地通过鼻子重新分配全身重心。福雷斯特感慨道，亲眼目睹这一幕既让人心酸，又令人震撼，长鼻这一“第五附肢”展现出了不可思议的代偿与生存适应能力。
- **车祸重创**：受重伤的大象腿部受损严重，彻底丧失受力功能。
- **力学代偿**：象鼻作为辅助肢体分担了庞大头骨与前躯的压迫力，形成了罕见的“三腿一鼻”四点行进步态。
### [19:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1182s) 万塔拉野生动物救援中心与象夫的共生关系
面对罗根关于“大象是否配合接骨治疗”的疑问，福雷斯特详细介绍了万塔拉（Vantara）的背景。万塔拉是全球规模最大的野生动物救援与康复中心，由印度亿万富翁安纳特·安巴尼（Anant Ambani）全额资助建造——就是那位曾斥巨资请贾斯汀·比伯（Justin Bieber）在婚前派对上献唱的顶级富豪。福雷斯特透露自己已与安纳特成为好友，并称赞万塔拉的宏伟程度“让圣迭戈动物园看起来像个路边摊”，其内部坐落着全世界顶级的超大型动物医院。
福雷斯特指着屏幕展示救助的大象案例，其中一头大象天生“八字脚”（splay legs），后来又常年被用作伐木劳作的役畜，日积月累的重负让骨骼畸形彻底恶化。他解释说，这类大象之所以愿意配合人类医护，是因为它们从小由印度传统“象夫”（Mahout）养大。在印度文化中，象夫与大象通常是一生相伴，一名象夫倾注毕生精力照料同一头象。尽管当地人把大象视作驮运、伐木的工具并过度役使，但彼此之间却充满深厚情感。万塔拉在营救伤残大象的同时，会将这些原本睡在地上破床垫上的穷苦象夫一同接纳安置，为他们提供全职工作与体面生活，让大象与主人在疗养基地共同重获新生。
### [21:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1305s) 大象的巨型水疗池、假肢与中西医疗法
谈及具体的医疗手段，福雷斯特表示，面对粉碎性或复杂骨折，兽医主要依靠疼痛管理和物理康复，而万塔拉的设施堪称前所未有。节目现场展示了为大象量身定制的水疗中心——一个面积甚至不输录音室大楼的“大象专属按摩水疗池”（jacuzzi）。患有严重关节炎、足部溃烂或严重骨伤的大象，在池水中可以借助浮力完全卸去自身数吨体重的重压，整天在水中浸泡放松，以此极大缓解骨骼磨损与剧烈疼痛。
万塔拉整合了传统东方医学、现代西方医学以及顶尖骨科工程。现场画面甚至展示了一头大象安装了高科技定制假肢。福雷斯特动情地表示，参与这样的救援令人百感交集；大象是极具灵性与高智商的生物，“当你看到一头如此聪慧的巨兽看着你的眼睛，眼神中写满了痛苦，而你亲手开始为它减轻这份痛苦时，那种感觉真的无法用言语形容。”
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 大象医疗与康复体系
accDescr: 展示万塔拉救援中心对伤残大象采取的多元治疗与康复流程
subgraph INTAKE["收容与诊断"]
A["救助伤残役用象"] --> B["全面兽医伤情评估"]
end
subgraph TREATMENT["综合治疗手段"]
B --> C["中西医结合疼痛管理"]
B --> D["定制生物力学假肢"]
B --> E["超大水疗减压池 (Jacuzzi)"]
end
subgraph OUTCOME["长期康复"]
C --> F["减轻骨骼重压与炎性损伤"]
D --> F
E --> F
F --> G["象夫全职陪护与终身养老"]
end
```
### [23:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1382s) 骑象旅游的反思与硬化路面对大象脚掌的隐形伤害
罗根由此回忆起几年前带家人去泰国大象营的经历。虽然那里的环境相对开阔，游客通过喂食甘蔗、抚摸交流与大象建立亲近，大象甚至会伸出腿让游客踩着爬上背部，但罗根心里极度抗拒骑乘：“我打心眼里不喜欢骑大象这一环，总觉得这事不对劲。”不过他也被大象温柔的天性深深打动，记得有一头温顺的母象一直呆萌地啃着木头，行程结束时，游客和大象一起泡在池塘里给它们刷澡，大象显得十分享受。
福雷斯特深入剖析了人类役使大象的历史，从古代战争、伐木到马戏团表演，直到过去二十年间，公众才真正意识到长期承重对大象脊柱、髋关节造成的永久性畸形与褥疮。然而福雷斯特强调，**真正对大象健康造成毁灭性打击的，往往不是游客骑乘的重量，而是走在坚硬的柏油路与混凝土路面上**：
- **爪垫生理结构脆弱**：大象脚掌内部是一整块柔软的肉垫，天然专为泥土、草地等软质地面设计，毫无吸收硬质水泥路面反冲震动的机制。
- **趾行式站立机制**：大象在解剖学上属于“踮脚走”的动物（walk on their toes），骨骼重力全压在脚趾骨上方，硬地反复冲击极易导致脚趾骨折和重度感染。
- **沥青高温与复合损耗**：正如柏油路在烈日下会烫伤狗爪一样，灼热坚硬的沥青地面加上负重前行，会以指数级加速大象足底与关节的彻底崩坏。
### [25:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1524s) 探险家俱乐部、食人猛兽与四牙象头骨
两人的谈话从古代人可能将大象头骨误认成“独眼巨人”（Cyclops）的趣闻展开。Forrest Galante 询问 Joe Rogan 是否去过位于纽约市的探险家俱乐部（The Explorers Club）。他极力推荐那里，并提到馆内陈列着传奇的查姆帕瓦特食人虎（Champawat Tiger）的相关展品。这只恶名昭彰的孟加拉雌虎在被传奇猎人吉姆·科比特（Jim Corbett）击毙前，据统计夺走了 430 多条人命。Forrest 笑称自己太喜欢这个冒险故事，甚至一度想给自己的儿子取名为“Corbett”。
此外，探险家俱乐部还收藏了一具极其罕见的四象牙大象头骨（Four-tusked elephant skull）。Forrest 解释说这是世界上已知唯一的一具四牙大象标本，至今科学界没人确切知道原因，它完全是一起罕见的基因畸变异常。随后制作人 Jamie 在屏幕上调出了头骨照片，象牙的生长方向杂乱、彼此交叉冲撞，明显属于非对称的基因突变，而非自然选择下的完美构造。Rogan 借此感叹大自然基因变异的离奇，就像人类有时生来会有多余的手臂或尾巴一样。
- **查姆帕瓦特雌虎（Champawat Tiger）**：20 世纪初在尼泊尔和印度库马盎地区造成 430 多人死亡，最终被吉姆·科比特猎杀。
- **四牙大象头骨**：纽约探险家俱乐部标志性藏品之一，属于极其罕见的象牙过度分化或基因突变畸形。
---
### [26:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1579s) 鹿角畸变与残忍刺向颅骨的角
两人的话题延伸到有蹄类动物的角质畸变上。Rogan 提到加州一个牧场曾有一头特殊的马鹿（Elk），它的鹿茸幼年时可能受过伤，导致一侧长出正常的掌状分叉，而另一侧却长成了一根笔直锋利的“长矛”。鹿群求偶争斗时本该是用角互相锁扣推挤，这头雄鹿却直接用那根骨矛刺杀其他竞争对手。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 角与鹿角的生长机制及病理差异
accDescr: 对比鹿类可脱落鹿角受外伤与牛羚类永久角持续生长刺入颅骨的过程
subgraph Antler ["鹿科（Deer / Elk）鹿角机制"]
A1["基部或软骨生长期受外伤"] --> A2["角质形态异常（如矛状变异）"]
A2 --> A3["每年脱落（Shedding）后可能重塑"]
end
subgraph Horn ["牛科 / 羚羊（Antelope）真角机制"]
B1["角骨心或外鞘受创感染"] --> B2["角无法脱落且终身持续生长"]
B2 --> B3["向内弯曲刺穿颅骨致死"]
end
```
Forrest 接着分享了一段更触目惊心的真实案例：他的一位兽医朋友最近刚给一只黑马羚（Sable antelope）做手术，锯掉了它刺入自己颅骨的长角。羚羊的角（Horn）与鹿角（Antler）不同，它们是终生不脱落的活体组织。这只黑马羚因为幼年受伤导致角弯曲生长，巨大的尖角倒扣着一点点凿进自己的脑袋。Rogan 看着术前视频惊呼不可思议，由于角每天以毫米级的速度向大脑推进，那种持续而无法逃避的剧痛极其残忍；所幸在长角彻底穿透脑部前，兽医成功将角锯断，保住了它的性命。两人还提到了印尼的鹿豚（Babirusa），这种动物标志性的上獠牙会向上穿出鼻背皮肤，若没有在日常搏斗中磨损折断，最终也会刺穿自己的额骨致死。
---
### [28:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1725s) 猎物肉质、食性与袋狼追踪的落空
谈到野生猪类时，两人聊到了肉质与饮食的关系。Rogan 回忆自己吃西貒（Javelina，领西貒，生物学上属于西貒科 Peccary 而非真猪科）的糟糕体验，指出这与它们在荒野翻吃垃圾和杂食有关。Rogan 还引述好友史蒂夫·里内拉（Steve Rinella）熏制黑熊肉的经历：当时里内拉借用朋友的熏肉炉，烟熏过程中弥漫着浓烈的死鱼腥味，甚至怀疑朋友之前熏过鱼；但真相是这头熊生前吃了海量的腐烂鲑鱼，体内脂肪沉积的全是鱼油臭味。
随后，Rogan 问起灭绝物种袋狼（Thylacine / 塔斯马尼亚虎）的搜寻近况。Forrest 遗憾地表示线索已经“基本冷却”。他目前正与名为“Mammal Watching”的组织合作，向西巴布亚和巴布亚新几内亚偏远林区的原住民分发红外触发相机（Trail cameras）。虽然当地仍有关于神秘肉食动物的零星口述，但 Forrest 坦言随着老一代逝去，目击传说在几代人之间越来越少，这意味着即便当地曾残存极小种群，现在可能也彻底消亡了。曾经看似有希望的零星拼图正在逐渐褪色，令人十分沮丧。
---
### [31:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=1897s) 隐秘物种与“亚洲独角兽”中南大羚的悲歌
两人探讨了人类为何对可能已经灭绝的物种如此痴迷，例如巨型地懒或袋狼。Rogan 提到曾看过一部关于生物学家在亚马逊雨林寻找残存大地懒的纪录片，那位科学家在丛林中耗费了数年光阴，最后意识到自己为了追逐虚无缥缈的原住民传说而断送了学术前程。原住民总是善意而笃定地告诉探险者“就在下一个山头后面”、“明天就能找到”。
但 Forrest 指出，如果不追随这些当地线索，人类就会错过真正的奇迹——比如被誉为“亚洲独角兽”的中南大羚（Saola）。西方学术界曾多年将越南和老挝森林里的大羚传说当成无稽之谈，直到 20 世纪 90 年代初才正式发现这一全新大型牛科动物。
- **西方记录极为罕见**：历史上仅有极少数中南大羚个体被记录，绝大部分是不幸落入偷猎者套索的个体。
- **“玛莎”（Martha）与活体目击**：学者比尔·罗比乔德（Bill Robichaud）曾接到老挝一位地方权贵的通知，称其村庄捕获了一只活体中南大羚。比尔火速飞抵现场，成为历史上唯一亲眼见过活体中南大羚的西方学者。
- **遗憾结局**：由于极度应激脆弱，这头中南大羚在被关押过夜后不幸死亡。比尔恳求村民将其完整保存为科学标本，但当地头领直接拒绝并表示“不，我们要吃掉它”，随即将其烹食分制。尽管比尔留下了珍贵的生前照片，但西方科学界与这种隐秘生物的最近一次接触最终以悲剧告终。
### [33:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2012s) 亚马逊与新几内亚的未知荒野与神秘物种
对话承接上一段关于某种角形奇特、侧面看宛如独角兽般的牛科动物（bovid）。福雷斯特·加兰特指出，民间流传的各种未解之谜——无论是南美洲的大地懒、塔斯马尼亚袋狼，还是大脚怪——其中确实有一小部分是真实存在过或仍在隐秘生存的。如果科学界完全忽视目击线索、不愿深入追查，人类就会错失发现未知物种的宝贵契机。
乔·罗根随即提到亚马逊雨林的浩瀚无垠。从航拍视角俯瞰亚马逊，无边无际的林海足以让人意识到，人类根本不可能搜寻过这里的每一寸土地。福雷斯特补充说，那里至今仍生活着完全未与现代文明接触的原住民部落；罗根也提到探险家好友保罗·罗索利（Paul Rosolie）曾多次在密林深处与这些未接触部落产生交集。亚马逊横跨秘鲁、玻利维亚、巴西等多个国家，福雷斯特分享了自己在巴布亚新几内亚寻找袋狼的类似震撼体验：当时他们乘坐小型飞机从图菲（Tufi）飞往另一地区，整整飞行了四个小时，窗外全是一望无际的原始雨林，连一座人造建筑的踪影都看不到。这种无边荒野的深度让人坚信，未知的生物必然还潜藏其中。
- 亚马逊雨林横跨多国，由于地理尺度极其庞大，至今仍有未接触的人类部落与未记录物种生存。
- 福雷斯特曾于巴布亚新几内亚的图菲上空连续飞行4小时，沿途只见无垠原始森林，无任何人工建筑。
- 面对浩瀚荒野，科学探索若忽视当地传闻与目击线索，往往会导致新物种发现的停滞。
---
### [35:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2107s) 尼斯湖水怪与荒诞的“鲸鱼生殖器”假说
话题转到著名的神秘生物“尼斯湖水怪”。当福雷斯特询问乔·罗根和制作人杰米对此有何看法（福雷斯特猜测或许只是鲟鱼之类的大型淡水鱼）时，罗根抛出了一个令人捧腹的暴论：“是鲸鱼的生殖器（Whale dick）！”他让杰米立即调出网上对比尼斯湖水怪照片与雄性鲸鱼生殖器露出水面姿态的对比图。
两人看着屏幕上的画面大笑不止。福雷斯特指出，那张最经典探出水面的水怪照片早被证实是一场恶作剧——当事人是用木头和玩具潜水艇拼接后在水面上摆拍造假。杰米随后检索到一篇新闻标题《教授澄清：尼斯湖水怪并非鲸鱼阴茎》。罗根打趣道，如果一位教授的学术专长是专门被人请来鉴定某个浮出水面的东西是不是鲸鱼生殖器，那这个学术身份本身就相当滑稽。新闻进一步显示，最初提出该假说的正是那位教授本人，但他随后撤回了这一耸人听闻的言论，承认自己当时只是在开玩笑。罗根调侃说，这或许是一位寻找巨型树懒失败后试图寻找全新学术热点的学者。
---
### [37:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2226s) 秘鲁孤立生态岛、新仙女木事件与得州老虎之谜
谈及如果真有人想在南美洲寻找存活的巨型地面树懒（大地懒），到底该去哪里找，福雷斯特给出了专业解答：唯一的希望在于寻找“地理隔离区”（Geographically isolated pockets）。这些区域通常四周环绕着险峻的高山或天然地理屏障，外部人类进不去，内部动物出不来，犹如大陆深处的生态孤岛，数万年来环境几乎未发生改变。他曾遇到一位探险者言之凿凿地声称，秘鲁群山环抱之中就存在这样一片与世隔绝的秘境，可能依然保留着史前遗世物种。
罗根从古气候学角度提出了支持论据：导致第四纪更新世巨型动物群大灭绝的“新仙女木事件”（Younger Dryas）对北半球的气候打击尤为致命，北美约有65%的巨型动物在短时间内灭绝；然而在赤道及南半球，这种气候骤变的影响相对温和，人们只是根据有限化石推测南美大型动物也全军覆没。
随后两人对比了现存大型掠食动物的数量。全世界野生老虎的数量目前约为5,000只（此前曾一度危及至仅存约400只）。福雷斯特随即分享了一个令人啼笑皆非的荒诞事实：仅在得克萨斯州私人后院和藏家手中圈养的老虎数量，就远远超过了全球野生老虎的总和。罗根感叹这种现象荒谬至极，却也正是得州独特狂野文化的体现。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 史前巨兽孑遗与现代圈养悖论
accDescr: 展示巨型树懒可能的存活机制与野生及得州圈养老虎的数量对比
subgraph SlothSurvival["南美大地懒可能的生存机制"]
A["高山环抱的地理隔离区"] --> B["环境千万年保持未变"]
C["新仙女木气候剧变"] -->|北半球重创 65%巨兽灭绝| D["南半球/赤道受冲击较弱"]
B & D --> E["史前巨兽可能存在孑遗口袋"]
end
subgraph TigerContrast["老虎生存分布的荒诞对比"]
F["全球野生老虎总数<br/>(~5,000只)"]
G["得州私人圈养老虎<br/>(后院/私人收藏)"]
G -.->|数量超越| F
end
```
---
### [38:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2330s) 得州的政治生态与“维持奥斯汀怪异且被包围”的动态平衡
聊起得克萨斯州，罗根与福雷斯特赞不绝口。福雷斯特提到每次来得州都感到极其舒服，人们热情随和，甚至在电梯里陌生人都会真诚地问候彼此。罗根指出，沿海地区的精英和傲慢分子往往戴着有色眼镜看待得州，认为这里全是不开化的乡巴佬（rednecks），但事实完全相反。
首府奥斯汀是全美最自由、包容且进步的城市之一，但即便当地的进步主义者，也比洛杉矶或纽约的极端激进派理智且务实得多。罗根特别引用并拓展了当地著名的口号“保持奥斯汀的怪异”（Keep Austin Weird），提出“保持怪异，并且保持被包围（Keep Austin weird and surrounded）”。他解释道，奥斯汀作为红州包围下的一片蓝区，这种结构对各方都是有益的平衡：
> “不要试图把整个得州变成纯蓝州，那样你也会毁了自己。生态平衡极其重要：你不能消灭所有的掠食者，否则鹿群泛滥横冲直撞；你也不能杀光所有的鹿，否则掠食者将无以为食。人类社会同样需要制衡。奥斯汀正是这种绝佳的平衡——一个自由派城市，被一群拥有枪支和老虎的硬核共和党人环绕，而这一切却运转得极为融洽。”
- 得州本地民风朴实热情，与东西海岸精英所贴的“愚昧红颈”刻板印象形成鲜明反差。
- 奥斯汀的政治立场偏向进步主义，但在务实土壤下较沿海大都市的极端抗议文化更为克制。
- 罗根强调社会需要类似生态链的动态制衡：强行将深红州翻蓝只会打破社区自我修正的稳定系统。
---
### [41:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2475s) 加州移居潮与奥斯汀的全球巴西柔术圣地地位
福雷斯特向罗根提问：作为从加利福尼亚搬迁过来的移民，罗根是否也像许多加州客那样带来了巴西莓果碗（Açaí bowls）等代表性的加州生活方式，进而改变了当地原本的文化？
罗根对此表示否认，他解释自己从不属于那一类加州生活方式的盲从者。他在加州汲取的主要是喜剧工坊（The Comedy Store）的脱口秀演艺工作，以及巴西柔术（BJJ）的训练体系。搬到得州后，奥斯汀不仅满足了这些需求，甚至已经崛起为当今全球的巴西柔术之都。
罗根如数家珍地列举了当地顶尖的格斗力量：虽然 UFC 旗下联赛因总部原因设在拉斯维加斯，但奥斯汀汇集了戈登·赖安（Gordon Ryan）的 New Wave 战队、克雷格·琼斯等人创立的 B-Team 战队，以及柔术传奇赞德·里贝罗（Xande Ribeiro）的驻地。此外，全城还遍布着众多格雷西巴哈（Gracie Barra）道馆以及多家第10行星（10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu）道馆。奥斯汀浓厚的格斗文化，已使其成为全球地面降服技术最顶尖的交流核心。
### [42:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2542s) 奥斯汀的喜剧氛围与播客诞生的缘由
Joe Rogan 与 Forrest Galante 谈及得克萨斯州奥斯汀市的独特魅力。Rogan 指出，奥斯汀在艺术上向来是一座伟大的音乐之都，而如今它几乎已经成为全美的“喜剧之都”（comedy capital）。Galante 表示完全理解为什么会有大批喜剧演员涌向这里：没有令人窒息的堵车、人人友善随和、生活自由自在。Rogan 更是列举了自己喜剧俱乐部周边蓬勃的脱口秀生态：就在他开店的街道上，接二连三新开了五六家俱乐部。不管是年轻演员想上台积累经验，还是成名大咖想打磨新段子，都可以随时在各俱乐部之间串场——除了 Rogan 自己的俱乐部，步行片刻就能到达好友 Brian 开的 Sunset Room、拐个街区就是知名的 The Creek and the Cave，此外还有近在咫尺的 The Vulcan，喜剧演出的密度和便利度令人惊叹。
随后，Galante 回忆起两人早年在加州伍德兰希尔斯（Woodland Hills）见面时的情景，当时 Rogan 就满心想着逃离洛杉矶。Rogan 透露了一个鲜为人知的“冷知识”：他的播客最初之所以创立，正是因为当时他不得不从科罗拉多搬回洛杉矶，心里极度沮丧压抑。那时他在科罗拉多生活，住在海拔 8,500 英尺的高地 Gold Hill，妻子怀孕期间因严重的高原反应身体非常虚弱；只要带她回洛杉矶平原，身体便立刻恢复，但一回科罗拉多就又病倒。在查阅医学资料后，他们发现高海拔地区容易导致婴儿早产和低出生体重等严重健康风险，为了母子平安，他不得不举家搬回洛杉矶。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 奥斯汀喜剧俱乐部生态分布与串场动线
accDescr: 展示以 Joe Rogan 的俱乐部为核心，周边几家主要脱口秀场地的近距离分布情况。
subgraph Austin_Comedy_Hub ["奥斯汀喜剧核心街区"]
A["Comedy Mothership<br/>(Joe Rogan 俱乐部)"]
B["Sunset Room<br/>(好友 Brian 的俱乐部)"]
C["The Creek and the Cave<br/>(相邻街区优质俱乐部)"]
D["The Vulcan<br/>(周边脱口秀场地)"]
end
A <--> B
A <--> C
B <--> D
```
---
### [44:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2654s) 高原适应、徒步险境与喜马拉雅寻踪
聊起高原反应，Rogan 分享了自己在海拔 8,500 英尺高处锻炼的恐怖体验。当时他做常规的壶铃训练，那种极度缺氧的疲惫感让他感觉像“喝了一整瓶威士忌然后去健身”一样眩晕虚弱。然而，当他后来前往费城演出并在海平面恢复训练时，身体已经代偿产生了过量红细胞，“氧气多到感觉自己能一头撞穿墙壁”，这也让他瞬间理解为何格斗选手要进行高海拔强化训练。Rogan 提到自己曾在博尔德（Boulder，海拔约 5,500 英尺）的好友 Amal Easton 的巴西柔术馆训练，虽然也能感到呼吸吃力，但远不像 8,500 英尺那样让人崩溃。
Galante 对此感同身受，他提到四五年前自己曾远赴喜马拉雅山脉寻找树栖小熊猫（Red Panda）。当时他直接从生活在海平面的圣巴巴拉飞抵喜马拉雅高地，第一天徒步才爬了大概 400 英尺就不得不累瘫在地上，前几天几乎每走 15 分钟就必须停下喘息歇脚。高山的危险绝不仅是缺氧，Rogan 提起最近看的一段令人心碎的登山视频：一名徒步者在向顶峰冲刺时失足滑出既定小径，从光滑的冰雪斜坡上一路往下滑坠，同行伙伴站在上方眼睁睁看着他越滑越远最终坠落，却完全无能为力。
- **高海拔训练对比**：博尔德（Boulder）海拔约 5,500 英尺，Gold Hill 约为 8,500 英尺；在 8,500 英尺做高强度力量训练会产生如醉酒般的极度乏力感。
- **低海拔“氧气红利”**：适应高海拔后返回平原（如费城），心肺耐力和体能感知会出现压倒性的爆发式提升。
- **高山环境的致命性**：雪线之上的极陡斜坡一旦失足滑倒，没有抓点便会演变成不可逆的坠亡惨剧。
---
### [46:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2812s) 育儿理念与走出舒适“信息茧房”
面对户外的残酷与凶险，身为父亲的 Galante 谈及带孩子冒险的矛盾心情。他内心总是渴望带孩子们去爬雪山、捉鳄鱼、体验天地辽阔，但现实中他六岁的孩子连走平地直线都会绊倒，带去险峻的山间徒步实在令人提心吊胆。然而他和 Rogan 都一致认为，绝不能过度保护孩子，适当暴露在一定程度的危险与艰苦中，对孩子的身心健全至关重要。
Rogan 强调，让孩子见识多元的世界是打破美国“温室茧房”（bubble）的最好方式。美国社会固然伟大而便捷，但安全、网购送货上门和数不尽的外卖让人们习惯了一切唾手可得。一旦离开这种环境去到哥斯达黎加丛林或异国偏远小镇，商店下午 4 点早早打烊，周日全城歇业，带着饥肠辘辘的孩子就必须学会随机应变、自己动手解决温饱。这种面对“没有现成食物”和生活受限的经历，能让孩子理解世界的真实运转规则，而不是在无聊时就漫无目的地不停往嘴里塞零食。
---
### [48:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2917s) 双相睡眠迷思与大熊猫的真假传闻
关于现代人生活习惯的演变，Galante 聊起自己在网上刷到的冷知识，声称“整夜 8 小时连续睡眠”是床垫公司为了营销发明出来的商业概念。制作人 Jamie 随即在后台检索核实，当场戳破了“床垫公司发明 8 小时睡眠”的谣言，引得三人一阵大笑。Galante 忍不住自嘲自己最近分享的网上八卦全被当场辟谣（“没有鲸鱼生殖器，也没有床垫公司的阴谋”）。不过 Rogan 指出，“分段式睡眠”（两段睡眠，Biphasic sleep）在人类历史上确实普遍存在——过去在没有电力的时代，人们日落而息，围绕营火吃点东西聊聊天就睡了，半夜醒来两三个小时做点杂事，天亮前再睡回笼觉；这就像现代人去野外露营，只要不酗酒弹吉他通宵，生物钟自然就会早早入眠。
话题随后从野外露营转向了动物奇闻。Jamie 和 Rogan 提到网络上流传甚广的各种荒诞阴谋论，甚至有人在认真讨论“大熊猫其实是人类假扮的或者是假动物”。Rogan 调侃问 Galante 有没有看到此前中国某家动物园把松狮犬/博美犬染成黑白色假装熊猫的爆料新闻。Galante 表示自己看过了那个染色宠物犬的新闻，但他之所以前几天也陷入了“大熊猫谜团”的网络深坑，是因为网上有人翻出考证提出一个惊人观点：在古代历史典籍与绘画中，竟然几乎完全找不到关于大熊猫的明确记载与形象描摹……
### [50:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3041s) 大熊猫在古代中国历史中的神秘缺席与 AI 检索
对谈从一个令人费解的文化历史现象展开：大熊猫在中国古代历史记录中几乎毫无踪迹。有人指出，直到大约 16 或 17 世纪，大熊猫才见诸记载。这引发了质疑：古代中国一直有探险家穿行于各地，为何这种体型庞大且外貌独特的生物未被记录？一种流传的民间假设甚至认为大熊猫是被人工培育出来专门吃竹子的，毕竟竹子生长极其迅速、繁衍极快，但几乎没有任何营养价值。为了验证这一说法，他们现场在赞助商 Perplexity AI 中进行了检索。
检索返回的结果表明，这个观点在很大程度上属实，但需要细致解读。AI 总结称，大熊猫在中国的古典文化记录中确实存在显著的缺失。这与龙、虎、鹤或龟等传统符号形成鲜明对比。此时两人还插话调侃道，之前节目里关于龙的讨论甚至登上了脱口秀节目《The View》，主持群之一的 Joy Behar 还在节目中惊呼他竟然相信龙的存在，场面十分滑稽。
Perplexity 进一步梳理了具体的文化断代与文献：
- **古典艺术与文学的缺席**：大熊猫从未出现在商周古代青铜器、陶器、唐诗、宋画、元曲、明代小说或清代著作中；在 20 世纪末之前，它在中华文明中几乎没有扮演任何象征角色。
- **“国宝”地位的现代性**：将大熊猫确立为“国宝”实质上是 1949 年之后的现代发明。
- **追溯性文献解读的争议**：20 世纪大熊猫名扬全球后，中国学者才回溯古典古籍寻找线索。《诗经》与《尚书》中曾记载过名为“貔”或“貘”的动物，部分现代学者将其追溯性地认定为大熊猫，但学术界对此充满争议，因为这些古称在当时也常指代豹、貘甚至是神话异兽。
- **汉代墓葬记录**：公元前 2 世纪的汉文帝母亲（薄太后）南陵中据称陪葬有“貘”骨，有时被认为是熊猫，但这类证据极其零碎、模糊且罕见。
### [53:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3202s) AI 检索的“罗根式论调”与训练数据的闭环怪圈
检索界面的总结中出现了一句带有讽刺意味的话，将该观点归纳为典型的“罗根式论调”（Rogan style claim）。这立刻引来了当场的大笑与吐槽：“我以前根本没说过这话！Perplexity，去你的，你怎么敢这么说！”随后他们探讨了 AI 是否在实时监听播客，或者是否记住了过往的提问历史。
这种生成式 AI 的数据闭环引发了更深层次的荒诞感：
- 提问者曾向前代 AI 查询某期节目的播放量，AI 却一本正经地回答“如你之前所述”（As you have previously stated）。
- AI 把主持人的言论当作数据源反哺给提问者，导致提问者依赖 AI、而 AI 却在依赖提问者的怪圈。
- 正如所调侃的：“你竟然拿我当训练数据？这就是为什么 AI 简直一团糟。你信任我，我信任你，但你绝对不能相信我，因为我的信息全是从你这儿来的！”
回到熊猫的话题上，这种文化缺席无法用“司空见惯”来解释。如果古籍不记载野鸭，是因为野鸭遍地都是不值一提；然而大熊猫在历史上从未泛滥到“不值一提”的地步，这种彻底的空白依然是个未解的谜团。
### [54:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3275s) 人工选育的猜想、解剖学悖论与“生存意志薄弱”的熊猫
话题转向了那个奇特的假说：究竟是谁培育了大熊猫来吃竹子？这种演化或选育过程令人联想到人类对狗的驯化。以查理王小猎犬（King Charles Cavalier）为例，人类仅凭数千年的选育，就将凶猛庞大的狼改造成了体重只有 25 磅、外表极致可爱、整天只想窝在人怀里撒娇的宠物。既然狼能被改造成小型玩赏犬，古代人类是否也可能捕获某种熊并将其定向选育？
关于熊猫生理特性的讨论揭示了其生物学上的奇特矛盾：
- **食肉目下的纯素食者**：大熊猫是分类学上的食肉目动物（order Carnivora），体内保留着食肉动物特有的短消化道与肠道菌群，却以几乎没有营养的竹子为主食。相比之下，考拉虽然也是严格的特化植食动物（仅吃桉树叶，且桉树叶也几乎没有营养还会让其产生类似致醉的迟钝状态），但考拉根本不是熊，而是有袋类动物（Marsupials）。
- **极端的幼态与外表**：大熊猫远比地球上任何其他熊类都要可爱得多，即使龇牙咧嘴也毫无威慑力。
- **令人窒息的母性本能与智商**：Forrest Galante 直言大熊猫拥有“历史上最好的公关团队”，但实际上是极为笨拙的动物。在圈养环境中，饲养员只需要递给母熊猫一个苹果，它就会毫无犹豫地扔掉自己的幼崽伸手去拿苹果，动物园甚至正是通过这种“以苹果换幼崽”的方式来接手照顾幼崽。它们微弱的生存本能让人感叹“这物种简直是在拼了命地想让自己灭绝”。
至于“大熊猫是人工工程产物”这一流言的源头，大家发现它其实是近两三个月才在社交媒体 Instagram 上突然爆火的无稽阴谋论。
### [57:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3450s) 社交平台上的 AI 生成野生动物假视频
谈到 Instagram 上的奇谈怪论，Forrest Galante 指出目前野生动物圈正面临严重的 AI 生成内容泛滥。即使是受过专业训练的生物学家，面对如今的合成技术，虽然 90% 的视频能一眼看穿，但剩下的 10% 逼真到难以分辨真伪，往往只能通过“这种动物行为学表现完全不合理”来推断其为 AI 伪造。
他们当场解析了一段流传甚广的造假视频：
- **视频内容**：一只花豹扑到角马背上撕咬，角马情急之下纵身跳入河流；河中的鳄鱼一拥而上杀死了角马背上的花豹，而角马则奇迹般全身而退、成功逃脱。
- **破绽分析**：角马不可能具有如此高级的谋略（懂得借助鳄鱼借刀杀人）；鳄鱼是无差别的机会主义掠食者，面对双双受困的猎物，绝不可能只挑背上的花豹咬，必定会将角马和花豹一同撕碎；从视觉细节来看，花豹毛皮的色彩饱和度偏高、爪子抓握角马皮肉时的质感像柔软的肉垫而没有露出真爪，极可能是用真实的角马遇袭素材，通过后期特效或 AI 模型在角马背上生硬添加了一只花豹。
- **现实的残酷性**：在真实的自然界中，鳄鱼一旦咬住猎物，力量悬殊巨大，几乎瞬间就会将其拖入水中完成致命翻滚，猎物根本没有多余的挣扎余地。
对话的最后，Forrest Galante 透露自己刚刚为探索频道（Discovery）完成了一部秘密筹备数年的新节目。在该节目中，他通过工程设计与特制装置，将自己置身于被掠食者的第一视角（Prey's perspective），以身临其境地体验如角马直面顶级掠食者时的极致压迫感。
### [59:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3587s) 铁笼沉入鳄鱼池：荒唐的电视特技与逃生隐患
福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）回忆起自己曾经历过的一场极度疯狂的电视拍摄：他将自己关进一个极其狭窄的笼子里，直接沉入满是鳄鱼的水池中。那个笼子狭窄得宛如一具立体的“棺材”。当乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）追问笼子的材质以及是否经过安全测试时，福雷斯特苦笑着表示，那纯粹是车间工人们就地取材、随便找来的钢材拼凑焊接而成的；测试过程也草率得令人发指——他们只是把空笼子往水里放了一次，确认没沉底散架，就宣布“可以用了”。罗根对此难以置信，直言这简直和那些经常被大白鲨直接撞碎咬穿的防鲨笼一样危险，完全是在拿命开玩笑。
为了应对潜在的致命风险，福雷斯特当时随身带了一个水肺潜水气瓶，以防缆绳断裂导致整个铁笼沉入水底。然而，现场的紧急预案荒唐到了滑稽的地步。铁笼内的备用气瓶仅能提供大约30到40分钟的氧气，而当福雷斯特向现场特技协调员询问“如果缆绳断了、我沉到水底咬上呼吸阀，你们打算怎么救我”时，对方居然轻描淡写地拿出一个抓钩，表示会用抓钩甩下水去钩住笼子拖上来。福雷斯特随即反问：“如果抓钩卡在水下的沉木枯树上怎么办？”对方直接愣住并坦白“还真没想过这茬”。由于福雷斯特进入笼子后是从外面彻底锁死的，一旦发生事故，他根本不可能自行游出逃生。这起事件彻底触碰了他的安全底线，回到家后，他严肃地对妻子表示：“这大概是我最后一年干这种蠢事了，现在的拍摄要求越来越离谱了。”
- **铁笼规格与制造**：由拍摄团队工坊里的工人临时使用废旧钢材焊接而成，尺寸仅能容纳单人站立，几乎就是一具钢制棺材。
- **水下应急预案漏洞**：潜水气瓶仅能支撑30至40分钟氧气，搜救团队唯一准备的救援手段是一个手动抛掷的抓钩，且未考虑水底杂物缠绕的风险。
- **牢笼密闭机制**：笼门在外部锁死，内部完全无法自行开启，沉底即意味着丧失自主逃生可能。
---
### [01:01:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3702s) 极地捕食者：透明箱特技与北极熊的绝对杀意
罗根指出，当今的自然野生动物纪录片面临着巨大的观众注意力竞争，仅靠拍摄动物本身已经无法吸引足够眼球，制作方往往被迫设计各种惊险夸张的特技镜头来刺激收视率。罗根联想到网络上极具代表性的一段著名视频——一位野生动物摄影师躲在透明的有机玻璃（Plexiglas）盒子里，任由一头巨大的成年北极熊在外面疯狂撕咬抓挠。福雷斯特透露，正是那一幕直接启发了他们整个系列的策划灵感。
两人深入剖析了这段视频之所以让人毛骨悚然的原因：与大多数其他熊类截然不同，北极熊展现出的是纯粹、毫无掩饰的主动猎杀欲望。罗根分析道，如果人类遭遇灰熊（Grizzly Bear）袭击，通常是因为人自身犯了错误——比如意外闯入了带崽母熊的领地、惊扰到了年迈脾气暴躁的老熊，或者在遭遇时做出了错误的逃跑反应；但北极熊则完全不同，在它们眼中，人类没有任何复杂的威胁信号，仅仅就是一团可以捕食的热量与鲜肉，视频中的北极熊从始至终都在冷酷而执着地尝试拆开箱子将里面的人拖出来吃掉。
---
### [01:02:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3749s) 占领废弃小镇：白令海岛屿上的北极熊“居民”
对话随后转向了自然界对人类文明遗迹的反向侵占。福雷斯特向罗根分享了位于白令海/楚科奇海区域的一处废弃海岛（科留钦岛上的废弃气象站及村落）。这里曾经是一处因资源枯竭或经济崩溃而被人类彻底遗弃的矿业或渔业据点，然而在居民撤离之后，当地的北极熊族群全面接管了整座城镇。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 北极熊占领废弃岛屿城镇生态链示意图
accDescr: 展示人类废弃据点如何被北极熊占领并依托海洋生态维持生存
subgraph Town["废弃人类聚落"]
A["人类矿业/科研据点废弃"] --> B["废弃木屋与砖石建筑"]
B --> C["北极熊进驻避风作为巢穴（Den）"]
end
subgraph Ocean["海洋食物网络"]
D["北冰洋/白令海水域"] --> E["海豹、海象及其他海洋哺乳动物"]
E --> F["高热量猎物与动物尸体"]
end
C --> G["北极熊族群长期定居"]
F --> G
```
通过网络调出的实拍无人机画面令两人叹为观止：成群的北极熊悠闲地将一栋栋废弃房屋当成自己的庇护所和产仔巢穴（Den），甚至像人类邻居一样趴在破损的窗框上向外张望。罗根打趣道，这场景简直就像熊在探头喊：“嘿，汤姆，过来喝一杯啊！”罗根感叹这完全是顶级恐怖电影的绝佳剧本：一艘远洋船只在海上漂流数周后发现了一处看似避风港的小渔村，船员兴奋地登岛打算休整，结果一进屋却发现满地巨型粪便，随后被潜伏在房屋内外的北极熊大军团团包围。面对罗根关于“岛上没有人类，熊靠吃什么生存”的疑问，福雷斯特解释道，北极熊并不依赖陆地资源，它们是极其强大的海洋哺乳动物清道夫与顶级猎手，周围海域丰富的海豹和其他海洋生物为它们提供了源源不断的能量补给。
---
### [01:04:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3846s) 跨洋游弋两百英里：北极熊的超强耐力与冰岛历史记录
福雷斯特进一步分享了北极熊匪夷所思的远洋游泳能力。它们不仅能单次游过极其漫长而冰冷的水域，历史上甚至有两到三起确切记录显示，北极熊直接从格陵兰岛横渡冰海游到了冰岛，横跨距离长达100至200英里。罗根不禁调侃这是“北极熊界的戴维·戈金斯（David Goggins）”，心中秉持着“我能挺过去、感受不到痛苦”的极致硬汉意志完成了跨洋迁徙。制作人杰米（Jamie）在检索资料后发现，2008年曾有一头游抵冰岛的北极熊在上岸后因安全威胁被当地警方击毙。两人讨论指出，这只熊在漫长的横渡过程中，很可能曾借助漂浮的海冰做间歇性的搭车歇脚，但即便如此，单次游泳几十甚至上百英里对于哺乳动物来说依然堪称生理奇迹。
谈及北极熊的生存机制与生理节律，福雷斯特纠正了一些常见误区：
- **浮水打盹（Snooze Float）**：北极熊拥有极其丰厚的皮下脂肪层，这不仅赋予了它们超强的耐寒抗饿能力，还能提供巨大的水下浮力。在非追猎期间，它们甚至可以直接漂浮在冰冷的海面上闭目打盹休整。
- **夏季高温与代谢抑制**：北极熊并非在盛夏疯狂进食，恰恰相反，仲夏的高温会让厚重皮毛下的北极熊极易体温过热。福雷斯特回忆自己在加拿大曼尼托巴省（Manitoba）徒步追踪北极熊时，当地白天最高气温达到华氏70至75度（约21至24摄氏度），在这个温度下，北极熊根本无法进行剧烈的高强度捕猎，大部分时间只能卧伏静养以降低代谢消耗。
- **冰岛的历史目击与种群推论**：文献显示冰岛最早记录到北极熊外来个体的历史可追溯至公元890年，仅在人类初次定居冰岛后16年。福雷斯特推论，如果不是因为人类迅速定居并猎杀了这些外来个体，只要在一头熊的寿命周期内有一公一母两头北极熊先后游到冰岛，当地凭借丰富的海洋生态就足以繁衍出一个独立的常驻北极熊种群。
- **欧洲中世纪的珍兽进贡**：杰米随后读到一段历史档案：早在中世纪，驯化极地白熊便在欧洲王室间屡见不鲜。例如在1252年，挪威国王哈康四世（Haakon IV）曾向英格兰国王亨利三世（Henry III）赠送了一头活体北极熊作为贡礼，亨利三世将其圈养在伦敦塔（Tower of London）中，由于体型庞大且性格凶悍，这一异兽在当时的宫廷引起了巨大轰动。
### [01:07:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4037s) 伦敦塔里的捕鱼北极熊与中世纪王室的奇闻逸事
乔·罗根与福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）继续阅读一段令人啧啧称奇的历史记录：中世纪时，一只来自极地的白熊（北极熊）被送往牛津郡的伍德斯托克（Woodstock）皇家动物园——该动物园自亨利一世（Henry I）统治时期便已存在。由于这只巨兽需要捕鱼生存，它随后被转运至伦敦塔。记录显示这只熊得到了相当优厚的照料，尽管在陆地上时必须佩戴口套并拴着铁链。当时伦敦的郡长们每周被强制划拨超过一先令的专款用于它的饲养开销，一年累积下来的费用几乎相当于一名中世纪骑士的全年预期收入。
两人对这一幕忍俊不禁：当时的人类根本没有现代枪械，面对一头庞大的北极熊，人们只能依靠弓箭和长矛来防备。最滑稽的细节在于，这只熊还配备了一名来自挪威的专业饲养员。饲养员穿着由王室报销的特制防水服，用一条长长的游泳牵引绳拉着熊，定期带它下到伦敦塔旁的泰晤士河里抓鱼。加兰特和罗根笑着读道，在那个年代泰晤士河里甚至还能捕到真正的三文鱼；记录的作者诙谐地写道，虽然生活在伦敦远不如在北极圈的浮冰上惬意，但天天能下河抓鱼“总比去打工强得多”。
- **驻留地点**：牛津郡伍德斯托克皇家动物园（始于亨利一世），后转移至泰晤士河畔的伦敦塔。
- **开销待遇**：每周饲养费逾一先令，年化开销相当于一位全职骑士的年薪。
- **护理工装**：配备专属挪威饲养员，身穿王室出资定制的防水服，使用超长牵引绳牵引白熊捕食泰晤士河野生三文鱼。
---
### [01:08:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4112s) 凶悍的懒熊与历史上人类残忍的“动物娱乐”
话题随之转到了熊类的野性上。罗根询问加兰特是否了解懒熊（Sloth Bear），加兰特随即纠正了罗根关于其产自日本的猜测，指出懒熊主要生活在印度和尼泊尔一带。加兰特强调，懒熊是典型的“较量不在于体型大小，而在于斗志有多凶猛”（"not the size of the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog"）。懒熊体格虽然不算庞大，性情却极为暴烈，在野外甚至敢正面硬刚孟加拉虎。
两人接着谈及历史上人类对待野生动物的残暴行径。加兰特提到，过去印度或尼泊尔的某些部落会活捉幼年懒熊，穿上鼻环，并在地面点起篝火、铺上巨大的铁皮，强迫懒熊走上滚烫的铁板；熊因为脚掌被灼烫而痛苦地不断抬脚跳跃，这便是过去街头卖艺所谓的“跳舞熊”（dancing bears）。罗根对此深感厌恶，并提到了欧洲历史上同样残忍的“斗熊”（bear-baiting）和“斗牛”（bull-baiting）——将熊或公牛拴在木桩上任由凶猛的犬群围攻撕咬；加兰特也补充道，南非早期殖民时期，白人殖民者甚至会组织犬群与狒狒搏斗并以此设局赌博。
在反思这种残忍时，加兰特表达了一种复杂的视角：虽然现代人完全无法容忍这些暴行，但人类若未经历过那些野蛮与弯路，或许今天也不会催生出深刻的动物保护意识。罗根则从历史心理学剖析道，在黑死病蔓延、战争中人随时被刀剑劈成两半的残酷年代，人命如草芥，人们对生命价值的认知极度扭曲，暴力自然而然地沦为了大众麻木生活中的娱乐消遣。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 历史上人类利用动物残酷娱乐的形式演变
accDescr: 展示了从懒熊跳舞、斗熊斗牛到近代保护意识觉醒的对比与演变关系
subgraph CruelPast ["古代与殖民时期的动物残酷娱乐"]
A["街头杂耍: 烙铁烫脚训练'跳舞熊'"]
B["围场角斗: 斗熊、斗牛与犬群撕咬"]
C["殖民赌局: 南非让猛犬与狒狒血腥厮杀"]
end
subgraph HistoricalContext ["历史背景因素"]
D["瘟疫战争频发，人命价值极低"]
E["缺乏现代科学与同理心认知"]
end
subgraph ModernShift ["现代演进"]
F["历史悲剧的反思与痛苦教训"]
G["现代野生动物保护与伦理意识觉醒"]
end
HistoricalContext --> CruelPast
CruelPast --> F
F --> G
```
---
### [01:10:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4230s) 罗马斗兽场、雅典卫城与厄琉息斯秘仪的致幻之谜
谈到古代的狂热与暴力，罗根回忆起罗马斗兽场（Colosseum）的历史。斗兽场建立于两千余年前，当时甚至能将整个场地注满水，模拟规模宏大的水上舰船海战。罗根感慨，亲自实地踏足这些古迹的感受与看照片、视频完全不同，当他置身于雅典卫城的帕特农神庙（Parthenon）时，那种“这里曾是西方民主与文明起源中心”的震撼感令人头皮发麻。
但罗根话锋一转，打趣道当时的古希腊学者与智者们可能“整天嗨得不行”（"high as f***"）。他去过厄琉息斯（Eleusis），那里正是著名的古希腊“厄琉息斯秘仪”（Eleusinian Mysteries）的发生地。信徒们会长期禁食，从雅典徒步跋涉至此，参与具有强烈宗教启示性质的神秘仪式。罗根指出，现代考古学家在发掘出的古代陶罐残留物中，检测到了麦角菌（Ergot）的化学痕迹。
麦角菌是一种生长在谷物上的寄生真菌，含有麦角酸（lysergic acid）等核心生物碱成分，能够引起类似 LSD 的强烈精神致幻效果。加兰特对此表现出浓厚兴趣，罗根解释道，古人虽然没有人工合成的化学药品，但通过小麦和黑麦上滋生的天然真菌，早已无意或有意地接触到了强烈的精神致幻活性物质。
---
### [01:12:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4326s) 麦角中毒、塞勒姆审巫案与法国“受诅咒的面包”疑案
讨论很快深入到麦角毒素对人类历史的深远影响。麦角菌不仅致幻，摄入过量更会导致致命的麦角中毒（Ergotism）。罗根提出了一个流传甚广的历史假说：著名的塞勒姆审巫案（Salem witch trials）很可能源自麦角中毒。当时由于早霜之后收割的部分小麦感染了麦角真菌，村民食用由这些面粉烤制的面包或饮用发酵啤酒后，全镇陷入了群体性致幻状态，在缺乏科学认知的迷信氛围下，精神错乱的村民将彼此眼中的幻觉与癫狂归咎于“女巫作祟”，演变成一场惨烈的人间悲剧，罗根戏称这简直是“意外服用了 LSD”（"accidental acid"）。
随后，两人聊到了冷战时期情报机构利用致幻剂做人体实验的黑历史。罗根提及了中情局（CIA）臭名昭著的 MK-Ultra 计划，特别是路易斯·乔利恩·韦斯特（Louis Jolyon West）等人参与的主导项目“午夜高潮行动”（Operation Midnight Climax）：CIA 设立秘密妓院，通过双向镜进行监视，指使性工作者在酒水中对毫不知情的嫖客下 LSD，以此观察药物反应。之所以选择妓院，是因为受害者即便遭遇幻觉也不敢公开报警或对外承认自己光顾过风月场所。
最后，搜索助理调出了一桩更为离奇的历史悬案：1951年法国南部蓬圣埃斯普里（Pont-Saint-Esprit）爆发的“受诅咒的面包”事件。在短短数天内，全镇数百名居民突发剧烈幻觉、抽搐、严重失眠与精神错乱。事件造成约250人患病，50人被强制关入精神病院，7人死亡——有人坚信自己长了翅膀能飞翔而从窗户跃下摔死，还有人尖叫着逃避眼前幻化出的毒蛇与猛兽。虽然法国官方调查将原因定性为当地面包店使用了受麦角菌污染的黑麦面粉（即历史上俗称的“圣安东尼之火”），但长期以来一直有严厉指控称，这起悲剧实际上是冷战时期 CIA 与美国军方联手进行的秘密大规模 LSD 投毒人体测试。
- **塞勒姆审巫案假说**：麦角菌耐受早霜寄生黑麦，引发群体性中枢神经中毒狂乱，在神权迷信催化下演变为捕风捉影的“审巫猎巫”。
- **午夜高潮行动（Operation Midnight Climax）**：MK-Ultra 分支项目，CIA 借助秘密妓院双向镜，在受害者不知情的情况下投喂 LSD 进行精神控制与观察。
- **蓬圣埃斯普里面包事件（1951年）**：
- 影响规模：250人严重中毒，50人被送入精神病院，7人丧生。
- 官方定论：黑麦面粉受麦角菌污染引发麦角中毒（圣安东尼之火）。
- 民间与调查指控：疑为美军及 CIA 实施的绝密实地生化致幻测试。
### [01:15:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4552s) 圣埃斯普里桥事件与 MK-Ultra 阴谋论
乔·罗根与福雷斯特·加兰特围绕 1951 年法国“圣埃斯普里桥（Pont-Saint-Esprit）集体中毒发疯事件”的成因展开了激烈讨论。尽管当时有科学家提出替代假说，例如有机汞杀真菌剂中毒、面粉增白剂三氯化氮中毒，或是烟曲霉菌（*Aspergillus fumigatus*）产生的真菌毒素，但罗根对此嗤之以鼻，直言“纯属扯淡（I call bullshit on this）”，坚信这背后必然是情报机构的秘密人体实验。罗根援引了美国调查记者 H·P·阿尔巴雷利二世（H.P. Albarelli Jr.）在 2009 年出版的纪实调查《一个可怕的错误》（*A Terrible Mistake*）中的核心论点：圣埃斯普里桥事件实际上是中情局（CIA）的“MK-Ultra 计划”与位于德特里克堡（Fort Detrick）的美国陆军特种作战处（SOD）联合开展的实地绝密 LSD 测试，而最初合成 LSD 的瑞士山德士制药公司（Sandoz）据传提供了实验化合物。
阿尔巴雷利引用的证据包括一份中情局解密文件，其中记录了一位山德士代表在谈及 LSD 的同时提到了“圣埃斯普里桥的秘密”，此外还涉及原陆军特种作战处科学家弗兰克·奥尔森（Frank Olson）的证词——奥尔森在 1953 年被同事秘密下药致幻后从纽约一家酒店高坠身亡，成为著名的 MK-Ultra 丑闻受害者。罗根与福雷斯特愤怒地抨击中情局“这帮混蛋连自己人都下手”。尽管历史学家与主流学者提出了有力反驳——例如受害者的症状是严重的血管收缩坏死、长达数周的重度精神分裂与肢体坏疽，这些完全符合麦角生物碱（Ergot alkaloids）中毒特征，而非单次急性摄入 LSD 的反应；更何况 LSD 极易溶于水且对热高度敏感，经过面包烤箱的高温烘烤早就被破坏分解；再加上所谓的电报文献存在歧义，自 1970 年代“丘奇委员会”（Church Committee）听证会以来海量解密的档案中也未见确凿记录。但罗根坚持认为，官方调查绝不可信，很多 MK-Ultra 档案之所以流传出来纯粹是因为漏掉在旧库房里，“只要你通过《信息自由法案》（FOIA）去查，他们只会回一句‘查无实据，滚一边去’，就像死在 2019 年互联网络健全时代的爱泼斯坦（Jeffrey Epstein），其档案至今仍被捂得严严实实”。
- **替代病因假说**：有机汞杀菌剂、面包漂白剂（三氯化氮）、烟曲霉真菌毒素。
- **阿尔巴雷利的指控**：CIA MK-Ultra、美军 SOD（德特里克堡）与瑞士山德士制药联合开展 LSD 人体投放测试。
- **医学与科学反驳**：LSD 遇高温烘烤会失效变质；患者经历的长达数周精神失常与肢体坏疽坏死更契合麦角中毒。
---
### [01:18:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4715s) 普拉姆岛、莱姆病与红肉过敏（Alpha-gal）
话题随即延伸至生物战与蜱虫媒介疾病。罗根提到纽约长岛附近的普拉姆岛（Plum Island）动物疾病中心，坚信该基地过去绝对在蜱虫身上进行过功能增益（gain-of-function）武器化研究。虽然莱姆病在自然界早已存在，但罗根指出，如今它的扩散烈度与蔓延速度前所未见，甚至一路向美国西部横扫。据罗根所了解的情报，这类研究的核心目的是在蜱虫体内工程化植入恶性病原体，战时通过飞机大面积喷洒空投，借此压垮敌方城镇的医疗系统或瘫痪军队后勤，甚至直接摧毁牲畜等食物来源。
随后两人将矛头对准了近期世界经济论坛（WEF）推崇的极端反吃肉议程。罗根讥讽那些宣称“吃肉加速气候变暖”的精英政客，甚至有人公开叫嚣制造或扩散能让人患上 Alpha-gal 综合征（红肉过敏）的孤星蜱虫（Lone Star tick）是一种“道德义务”。罗根透露，自己的挚友——黑步枪咖啡（Black Rifle Coffee）创始人埃文·哈弗（Evan Hafer）就在打猎徒步时被蜱虫咬伤染上此病，全身血液指标严重恶化，身体机能彻底被搞垮；喜剧演员伯特·克赖舍（Bert Kreischer）妻子的家族在田纳西州和东海岸也有一半人深陷此疾。在三四十年前几乎不存在的 Alpha-gal，如今却在北美遍地开花。加兰特感叹，自己以前野外探险常年被蜱虫叮咬从不放在心上，如今作为一个挚爱红肉的人，被蜱虫咬一口已成了恐怖的噩梦。此外，莱姆病的危害同样毁灭性，例如 UFC 名将吉姆·米勒（Jim Miller）就曾被严重莱姆病拖垮职业生涯，经过极其严苛的饮食调整才艰难康复。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 蜱虫武器化猜想与疾病影响
accDescr: 展示普拉姆岛功能增益假说如何通过蜱虫媒介引发人体疾病与社会冲击。
subgraph 武器化研发假设
A["普拉姆岛研究中心"] --> B["蜱虫功能增益实验"]
B --> C["空中喷洒与媒介投放概念"]
end
subgraph 战术与现实后果
C --> D["瘫痪敌军与医疗系统"]
C --> E["破坏牲畜食物供给"]
end
subgraph 现实社会扩散
B -.-> F["莱姆病加速向西蔓延"]
B -.-> G["孤星蜱虫与 Alpha-gal 扩散"]
F --> H["长期神经/免疫系统损毁"]
G --> I["哺乳动物肉类重度过敏"]
end
```
- **Alpha-gal 综合征受害者案例**：黑步枪咖啡联合创始人埃文·哈弗因被咬导致血检指标全面紊乱；伯特·克赖舍姻亲家族多人患病。
- **运动员受损案例**：UFC 格斗选手吉姆·米勒曾因严重莱姆病导致战绩与体能滑坡。
- **传播媒介**：原多分布于南方的孤星蜱虫（Lone Star tick，学名 *Amblyomma americanum*）。
---
### [01:21:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4905s) 动物间谍战：从“声学小猫”到 DARPA 半机械昆虫
加兰特将话题引向了军方利用动物进行情报战的荒诞历史，率先提及著名的“声学小猫计划”（Operation Acoustic Kitty）。在冷战时期的 1960 年代，中情局科技处（Directorate of Science and Technology）为了暗中窃听克里姆林宫及苏联驻外使馆，启动了这一改造街头野猫的项目。兽医外科医生通过长达一小时的手术，在猫的耳道内植入微型麦克风，在头骨底部塞入微型无线电发射器，并将细天线缝入皮毛之中。由于猫在野外容易因饥饿分心，中情局甚至不得不对其进行神经手术试图抑制饥饿感。
然而，这套高精尖窃听系统的首次实战却以滑稽的惨剧收场：特工在华盛顿特区威斯康星大道苏联使馆外的公园里释放了这只“声学小猫”，试图偷听长椅上两名苏联外交官的对话，结果猫刚被放出就被一辆呼啸而过的出租车当场碾死。罗根大笑着吐槽：“那只猫脑子里插满了电线，肯定早就精神错乱了（Schizophrenic cat）！它心里估计只想着‘我脑子里到底装了什么鬼东西’”。虽然 2013 年中情局前技术服务处主任罗伯特·华莱士（Robert Wallace）出面“辟谣”，宣称项目废除只是因为猫咪受训服从性太差，并坚称微型设备已被安全取出，猫咪此后“过着幸福长寿的生活”，但罗根与加兰特当场拆穿官方谎言：“纯属鬼扯！你们花了纳税人的钱，猫被车撞了，你们还会花钱做手术取仪器？你们绝对一枪把它给毙了”。
军方对生物间谍的执念并未止步于哺乳动物。加兰特和罗根调出资料指出，美国国防高级研究计划局（DARPA）在 2006 年正式向学界招标研发用于情报间谍的“半机械昆虫”（Cyborg insects）。加州大学伯克利分校（UC Berkeley）的科研人员随即在 2009 年 10 月成功研制出可无线遥控的机械甲虫。看着屏幕上甲虫背部直接固定着微型电池和芯片控制器的特写照片，加兰特惊呼这技术既硬核又毛骨悚然。罗根打趣道：“搞不好现在演播室地毯下面就趴着一只蟑螂在窃听我们”。不过两人也坦言，考虑到他们在播客里什么敏感话题都敢公开胡侃，情报部门暗中监听也探听不到什么新猛料。
- **声学小猫计划细节**：耳道植入麦克风、颅底植入发射器、皮毛嵌入天线；首次外场试验即遭出租车撞击损毁。
- **二战蝙蝠炸弹**：加兰特顺带提及美军在二战期间研制的捆绑小型燃烧弹的“蝙蝠炸弹”（Bat bombs）。
- **DARPA 半机械昆虫**：2006 年立项招标，2009 年 UC Berkeley 团队利用微型芯片与电极成功实现对活体甲虫飞行姿态的神经遥控。
### [01:24:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5094s) 军用动物历史与“神风海豚”
对话承接上文关于甲虫植入芯片控制的技术，感叹随着芯片制造与电池技术的飞速跃升，这类设备已经变得极其微小，如同对比 2009 年的早期智能手机与现代手机一般不可同日而语。谈及军事对动物的利用，历史上早就存在各种耸人听闻的先例：美军曾尝试“蝙蝠炸弹”（Bat bomb），将燃烧装置绑在蝙蝠身上让其飞入建筑物筑巢，从而引发连环大火烧毁城镇；中情局（CIA）也曾训练过安装微型摄像头的间谍鸽子。
随后话题转向海洋哺乳动物。嘉宾提到美军曾将海豚用作“爆炸物分发器”，甚至将它们训练成类似神风特攻队（kamikaze）的自杀式活体炸弹。虽然这种说法的某些悲惨细节令人不忍细读，但查阅解密史料可知，美军针对海豚的海军海洋哺乳动物计划（Navy Marine Mammal Program）始于 1959 年，官方主要公开的职能是利用海豚超群的回声定位能力在混浊黑暗的水域中探测水雷、水下障碍物以及敌方潜水员，海豚在侦测到目标后会返回向训练员发出特定信号。不过，外界长期存在怀疑，认为军方在冷战期间可能确实开展过更具杀伤力的武器化改装，或借由虚虚实实的宣传战，故意散布海豚可引爆炸弹的假情报来干扰敌方判断。
- **蝙蝠炸弹**：二战期间研发的试验性战术，借助蝙蝠在木质建筑屋檐栖息的习性引发大范围火灾。
- **海军海洋哺乳动物计划（1959 年起）**：利用宽吻海豚与海狮探测水雷和警戒敌军蛙人，利用其生物声呐弥补当时雷达和声呐技术的不足。
- **虚假情报战**：故意对外透露己方拥有“武器化海豚”，迫使对手耗费资源展开防范与追赶。
---
### [01:27:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5241s) 俄国间谍白鲸“赫瓦尔迪米尔”（Hvaldimir）
对于水下动物特工，福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）提到了近年来轰动国际的真实案例——一头名为“赫瓦尔迪米尔”（Hvaldimir）的白鲸。这头白鲸在挪威海岸被发现时，身上竟然紧紧绑着写有圣彼得堡标识的特制挽具，上面配有可安装运动相机的底座，显然是俄国海军水下间谍训练营的“逃兵”。白鲸外形极为温和奇特，额头隆起、神情宁静，被两人打趣为犹如“降临地球、操着平静语调告诫人类切勿滥用核能的外星使者”。
令人唏嘘的是，这头性格亲人、曾多次主动向挪威当地船民和潜水员示好的明星白鲸，在挪威海域生活数年后，最终却在神秘情况下中弹死亡，引发国际动物保护组织的强烈抗议与调查。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 赫瓦尔迪米尔白鲸经历简图
accDescr: 展现白鲸从疑似俄军训练逃脱到挪威现身并最终身亡的经过
A["俄国海军间谍训练营<br/>（配装特制挽具与相机支架）"] --> B["逃离并现身挪威海域<br/>（被称为 Hvaldimir）"]
B --> C["与人类友好互动数年<br/>（多次出现在公众视野）"]
C --> D["神秘受枪击身亡<br/>（死因引发多方调查）"]
```
---
### [01:28:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5326s) 约翰·利里（John C. Lilly）与骇人的海豚交流实验
谈到海豚实验，乔·罗根提到了神经科学家约翰·利里（John C. Lilly）——不仅是感官剥夺水槽（Sensory deprivation tank）的发明者，也是经典科幻电影《变形博士》（*Altered States*）的原型人物。利里个人行事极其狂放激进，经常在肌肉注射高剂量氯胺酮（Ketamine，K粉）后跳入感官剥夺槽中，试图开发大脑潜能与意识通道。
在 20 世纪 60 年代，利里主导了一项开创性的跨物种交流项目，由女研究员玛格丽特·豪·洛瓦特（Margaret Howe Lovatt）与一只名为彼得（Peter）的雄性宽吻海豚生活在特制的海豚之家（Dolphin House）中。整座建筑被注入数英尺深的水，研究员完全在水中生活，试图教导海豚模仿人类语言发音。然而实验进行到后期，年轻的雄性海豚性冲动极其频繁，极具攻击性且拒绝配合训练。为了安抚海豚并维持课程进行，女研究员被迫频繁用手帮助海豚自慰射精以达到性满足。这一令人侧目的内幕最终被曝光，资助机构随即彻底撤资并终止了研究。这个荒诞却真实的事件后来被英国广播公司（BBC）拍成纪录片《与海豚对话的女孩》（*The Girl Who Talked to Dolphins*）。
- **发音限制**：海豚虽然智力极高且极力尝试配合发音，但其发声器官属于气孔下方的声唇与气囊系统，不具备人类的声带与唇齿构造，无法发出标准的人类辅音。
- **AI 破解鲸豚语言的前景**：现代生物学界正借助前沿人工智能与自然语言处理（NLP）技术，通过对海豚与虎鲸发出的大量点击声、哨鸣声建立超大型数据库，进而解码其复杂的生物声学语法结构。
---
### [01:31:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5483s) 虎鲸拟音、圈养恶果与被遗弃的法国水族馆虎鲸
演播室随后播放了虎鲸模仿人类发音的著名录音：一头受训的虎鲸勉强且努力地挤出类似 "Bye-bye"、"Amy" 以及 "Hello" 和数字 "One, two" 的滑稽声响。罗根幽默地吐槽道，这头虎鲸心里真正想说的肯定是：“别再给我打飞机了，放我回大海，你这个疯婆子！”
从虎鲸拟音自然引申到了现代海洋公园的残酷现状。两人共同提到了揭露圈养虎鲸悲剧的经典纪录片《黑鲸》（*Blackfish*），指出在纪录片引发全球反思后，仍然有人前往海洋世界（SeaWorld）等场所消费，令人难以理解——水族馆巨大的水泥水池对鲸豚而言无异于终身监禁。
福雷斯特补充了当时法国正面临的一起严峻动物保护危机：法国政府立法禁止鲸豚圈养表演并关停了一家大型海洋公园，然而园内剩下的两头虎鲸和海豚却没有妥善的放生与安置方案。由于转移和野化训练的成本极其高昂，原园方声称动物属于私人财产且无力承担巨额开销，致使两头虎鲸长达一年多甚至更久被遗弃在荒废设施肮脏逼仄的死水池中，生命危在旦夕，引发了国际救援力量的紧急介入。
### [01:33:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5599s) 圈养虎鲸的悲剧与动物的情商之谜
两人谈到了被遗弃在倒闭水族馆水槽里的虎鲸。在某些倒闭的游乐设施中，园方因游客归零而无力支付昂贵的饲料开销，政府部门也往往只满足于下达查封禁令，却不愿接手安置这几头庞然大物；经营者只能偶尔掏出个人积蓄买点食物勉强维生，让鲸鱼在狭窄死寂的水池中绝望度日。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）联想到了曾参与揭露并关闭加拿大海洋公园（Marineland）的活动家菲尔·德默斯（Phil Demers），感叹那些劣质圈养场馆对智慧生命的摧残。罗根断言，后世子孙看待当今人类将鲸豚囚禁在“水泥游泳池”里的行径，势必就像今天的人类回看奴隶制一样充满道德谴责。海豚的大脑皮层表面积比人类高出约 40%，拥有极其精密的大脑构造，而人类却自以为是地剥夺其自由。
福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）进一步将话题延伸到大象等高认知动物的“情商”（EQ）。他指出，大象的情感体验维度极其深邃，失去同伴时承受的心理创伤或遭受虐待时的痛苦深度，可能比任何人类所能理解的极端情绪还要强烈数倍。虽然大象不具备人类的复杂数理计算能力，但根据脑部扫描以及长期的行为学观察，它们掌控情感认知的大脑区域异常发达，其所体验到的情感峰值与低谷完全超越了人类的情感感知光谱。
- 加拿大海洋公园（Marineland）等圈养场馆因恶劣条件饱受诟病，其前驯兽师菲尔·德默斯（Phil Demers）曾奔走推动其关闭与整改。
- 海豚的大脑大脑皮层在比例结构上比人类大脑大约 40%，显示出高度复杂的大脑神经机制。
- 大象具有极高的情感智能与共情能力，面对至亲离世或创伤时产生的哀恸远超人类理解范畴。
---
### [01:35:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5713s) 人类对智力的狭隘定义与“海洋人类”假说
罗根与加兰特剖析了人类评判“智慧”时的傲慢偏见：人类往往固执地将“操纵物理环境的能力”当作衡量智力的唯一尺子。罗根打趣道，人类看待动物就像是在审视一个应聘者：“你觉得自己很聪明？那写本书看看啊？既然聪明，你怎么不盖栋房子？你的火箭和手机在哪里？”这种思维完全忽视了环境适应的多样性。鲸豚根本不需要像灵长类动物那样改造环境，它们是真正的“海洋人类”：
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: Cetacean Adaptation vs Human Technological Need
accDescr: Comparison showing why cetaceans never needed to manipulate physical environments like humans.
subgraph Ocean["海洋环境与鲸豚演化"]
A["三维立体运动空间"] --> B["游速极高/巡游四海"]
C["顶顶级掠食者地位"] --> D["食物天然遍布海洋"]
B & D --> E["无需固定庇护所或制造工具"]
end
subgraph Land["陆地环境与人类演化"]
F["二维平面移动限制"] --> G["移动迟缓/生理脆弱"]
H["环境恶劣且不稳定"] --> I["被迫发展工具与筑巢技术"]
G & I --> J["依赖操纵环境创造舒适与生存"]
end
```
加兰特指出，游弋在深海的虎鲸不仅位居食物链顶端，更拥有在三维空间中自由穿梭、下潜闭气长达一小时的生理能力，食物随处可得，完全没有定居或筑巢的刚性需求；相比之下，人类行动迟缓又缺乏毛皮，才不得不通过破坏与重塑地表环境来苟延残喘。罗根补充道，如今人工智能正在尝试破译海豚与鲸类的声音交流系统，如果未来 AI 证实它们拥有成体系的“语言”和复杂的文化传播，整个人类社会对待海洋哺乳动物的方式或将迎来颠覆性的伦理重塑。
---
### [01:36:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5806s) 动物园的存废之争与狼群收容所的复杂现实
加兰特话锋一转，指出尽管自己强烈反对在狭窄人工水池中圈养大型鲸类，但他坚决不赞同盲目激进的“全面取缔动物园运动”（Anti-zoo movement）。现代动物保护领域充满灰色地带：不能将滥捕滥育的私人黑心动物窝点（如《虎王》中展现的乱象）与世界级的科研保育基地（如圣地亚哥动物园）混为一谈。顶尖的现代动物园在挽救濒危物种免遭灭绝、开展人工繁育项目以及激发下一代对大自然的敬畏心方面，起到了无可替代的基石作用。
罗根回忆起两人曾共同造访过的一处狼群收容庇护所，坦言那次探访让他心情格外沉重，因为看到被收容的狼全部被施以绝育手术，“被切除睾丸”的景象让他感到无比压抑。加兰特解释称，这正是动物保护现实中最无可奈何的灰色妥协：这些被救助的个体大多来自非法饲养或遗弃，若不绝育并群养，雄性之间会为了争夺地位与领地发生惨烈的撕咬致死；而更关键的是，许多个体根本不是纯种灰狼，而是狼犬混血杂交体，如果直接放归野外，其混入野外种群后将会严重污染自然纯种狼的基因库。
- 动物保护机构呈现两极分化，既有商业牟利的私人后院马戏团，也有圣地亚哥动物园（San Diego Zoo）等承担全球物种保全重任的标杆机构。
- 救助庇护所对杂交狼犬实施绝育，既是为了防止群体内部致命打斗，也是为了防止混血基因流入纯种野生狼种群。
---
### [01:37:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5874s) 黑狼基因之谜与 Colossal 的“恐狼”幼崽体验
关于狼的遗传学问题，两人探讨起北美黑狼的毛色起源。罗根提出，有观点认为黑狼标志性的黑色皮毛并非野狼原生态演化的产物，而是源于古代家犬的杂交渗入。为了求证，他们让制作人杰米（Jamie）当场使用 Perplexity 进行检索。检索结果证实了这一遗传学结论：
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Introgression of Black Coat Gene in Wolves
accDescr: Flowchart illustrating the transfer of the melanistic mutation from domestic dogs to North American wolves.
Dog["古代家犬 (Domestic Dog)"] --"突变起源: CBD103 基因缺失"--> K_Locus["K 位点显性黑色等位基因 (KB)"]
K_Locus --"单一起源杂交渗入 (育空/西北地区)"--> Wolf["北美野生灰狼 (North American Wolves)"]
Wolf --> Black_Wolf["表现出黑色毛皮性状 (黑狼表型)"]
```
- **研究背景**：2009 年由安德森等人（Anderson et al.）发表在《科学》（*Science*）期刊上的经典研究确认，北美灰狼的黑色皮毛源自 *K* 位点（具体为 *CBD103* 基因防御素家族的 3 个碱基对缺失突变）。
- **基因流向**：突变最早发生在人类驯化的家犬身上，随后通过杂交事件逆向渗入野生狼群；单倍型分析显示该等位基因是由一次单系渗入事件扩散至整个北美大陆，发源地极可能位于育空或西北地区。
随后，罗根兴奋地分享了他带小女儿前往初创公司 Colossal Biosciences 参观其“恐狼”（Dire Wolf）基因复活项目的私密经历。尽管该项目处于严格保密状态，罗根受邀近距离接触了人工培育的四个月大幼崽。罗根的小女儿抱着一只重约 40 磅、名为“卡丽熙”（Khaleesi）的雌性幼狼温存依偎，小狼表现得温顺黏人，还会不断舔人的脸颊，行为与普通家犬幼犬别无二致。罗根感叹，在这个月龄段它们依然如同家养小狗般甜美可人，但另外两只名为罗穆卢斯（Romulus）和雷穆斯（Remus）的雄性幼崽则展现出了野性猛兽的骨架雏形。
### [01:41:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6092s) 复活恐狼的争议与生物学特征
乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）聊起了复活的恐狼（dire wolves）。罗根回忆起自己去探访那些幼崽时的经历，当时那些狼还很小，非常可爱，但随着体型迅速长大，成年雄性狼就变得极具威慑力，罗根直言绝不敢让自己的孩子和那种体型的狼呆在一起。探访时是在一个大型圈闭区域内，虽然人类可以走进去，但成年狼通常会主动与人保持距离，只是冷冷地看着你；而当时有一只更小的母狼幼崽特别亲人，甚至想黏着人，但因为体型太小，工作人员不敢将她放进大狼群里，以免发生意外。
两人谈到了这些复活狼表现出的一些出人意料的生理特征。例如，研究人员此前根本不知道恐狼居然长有类似雄狮一般的鬃毛（mane），而且毛色居然是纯白色的。加兰特询问这究竟是基因编辑过程中的突变表达，还是恐狼本身的隐性性状被激活。罗根指出学术界对这些动物是否算真正的“恐狼”存在巨大争议——批评者认为这不过是将恐狼的特定基因特征转移到了灰狼（grey wolf）身上表达，其本质依然是一只灰狼。但古遗传学家贝丝·夏皮罗（Beth Shapiro）等人对此毫不避讳，坦承他们是在尝试填补生态位。罗根进一步辩称，从分类学上争论这是否是“真正的恐狼”毫无意义，因为基因本身并不在乎人类贴上的标签；就像如果有人造出了一只30英尺高、在城市里肆虐并吞下大众巴士的蜥蜴，它毫无疑问就是一只活生生的霸王龙。此外，他们还顺带提到了乔治·丘奇（George Church）团队等机构正在研究的猛犸象毛鼠（woolly mouse），加兰特开玩笑说本·拉姆（Ben Lamm，Colossal Biosciences 联合创始人）曾答应送他一只，他可一直记着这笔账。
- 恐狼体型可达200磅（约90公斤），全身覆盖浓密白毛，颈部带有类似狮子的鬃毛。
- 幼狼在出生前5至6个月内性格温顺亲人，长到接近一岁后行为模式发生显著转变，野生本能全面显现。
---
### [01:44:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6257s) 短面熊与人类迁徙阻隔假说
话题转向古生物在地球上的游荡历史，加兰特提到了一个极具吸引力的假说：曾经生存在北美大陆的巨型短面熊（short-faced bear）是否曾作为超级掠食者，阻断了早期人类跨越白令陆桥（Bering Land Bridge）进入美洲的移民路线。短面熊的体型足足是现代北极熊的两倍大，奔跑时速据推测可达50英里，站立起来如同不可逾越的巨塔。加兰特打趣道，这种巨兽就像蹲守在白令陆桥两端等待人类跨海，如同现代棕熊在瀑布边等待逆流而上的鲑鱼一样：“又到了一年一度的猎食季。”
罗根感叹面对这种怪兽，人类的智慧在绝对的力量面前显得苍白无力。即便在现代，手持9毫米手枪遭遇一头灰熊也几乎是死路一条，更不用提史前人类只能凭借石块、投枪或简陋的长矛。在人类最初迁徙的年代，弓箭甚至可能尚未被发明，肉搏无异于自杀。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 巨型短面熊生态假说与人类迁徙争议
accDescr: 展示巨型短面熊对人类迁徙阻隔假说的提出、争议点以及人类应对捕猎策略的逻辑演变
subgraph Hypothesis["假说提出"]
A["白令陆桥人类迁徙"] --> B["巨型短面熊阻隔假说<br/>(体型为北极熊两倍/奔跑极快)"]
end
subgraph CounterArguments["反驳与生态限制"]
B --> C["能量代谢限制<br/>(体型庞大导致种群密度极低)"]
B --> D["食性争议: 主动捕食 vs 盗食寄生<br/>(长腿更适合长途踱步抢夺猎物)"]
B --> E["美洲更早人类遗迹发现<br/>(白沙国家公园2.2万年前脚印)"]
end
subgraph PrehistoricTactics["早期人类狩猎/自卫方式"]
C & D --> F["避开正面冲突"]
F --> G["火攻洞穴堵截幼崽"]
F --> H["近距离使用投矛器 (Atlatl)"]
end
```
---
### [01:45:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6321s) 美洲早期人类证据与短面熊的生态位之谜
罗根随即指出，人类通过白令陆桥进入美洲的时间线本身就疑点重重。新墨西哥州白沙国家公园（White Sands）发现了距今约22,000年前的人类足迹，这一时间远早于末次盛冰期以及传统认知中人类踏入新大陆的节点；更不用提在墨西哥发现的疑似人类砸碎乳齿象骨骼吸取骨髓的痕迹。这意味着人类可能在更早的5万年甚至10万年前就已出现在美洲。
他们通过现场的人工智能搜索工具（Perplexity）查阅短面熊的研究现状，发现“巨兽封锁北美大陆”的假说在近年来的学术界已被打破。巨型短面熊维持如此庞大的体型需要极其巨大的热量摄入，因此其整体种群密度不可能太高，无法形成严密的“封锁线”。随后，屏幕上显示有学者主张短面熊是一种“极端食肉动物”（hypercarnivore），其身体结构适合长距离踱步迁徙，可能主要是通过体型、敏锐嗅觉和长腿步态充当“盗食寄生者”（kleptoparasite）——即依靠威慑力从美洲拟狮、恐狼或剑齿虎（scimitar cats）嘴里抢夺食物，而非高速追击健康猎物。
加兰特对此假说表示怀疑，认为长腿结构本身就意味着高速度，且像现代斑鬣狗一样，食肉动物完全是机会主义者（鬣狗也有高达30%的捕食成功率），不可能只依赖腐肉。对于人类如何应对这些巨兽，制作人杰米（Young Jamie）调出资料显示早期人类多采用猎捕棕熊的传统策略：发现巢穴后用火封堵洞口，熏烟窒息成年熊并杀死幼崽。但在野外遭遇战中，人类仅靠投矛器（atlatl）和长矛自卫风险极高，因为投矛器需要拉近到极其危险的超近距离，面对一头狂暴冲锋的巨熊，极少有人能冷静应对。
- 白沙国家公园发现的人类足迹经测定距今约22,000年，打破了传统克洛维斯（Clovis）文化优先假说。
- 短面熊生态位争议集中于主动捕食者与“盗食寄生”（强行夺取其他掠食者猎物）之间。
- 史前人类对大型猛兽的主动攻击主要依靠火攻封堵洞穴，而非在开阔地带用投矛器或长矛硬拼。
### [01:49:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6552s) 防熊武器的生死时速与投枪器的力学杠杆
两人讨论了面对凶猛巨兽冲锋时的致命危机。乔·罗根与福雷斯特·加兰特分析了面对棕熊冲锋时使用防熊喷雾与枪支的实际处境。想象一下，如果手里拿着一把 10 毫米口径的半自动手枪，当一头熊冲过来时，你必须先拔出枪、拉动套筒上膛、关闭保险，然后瞄准目标扣动扳机——在做完这一连串动作之前，"你早就没命了"。除非熊在百码之外就开始奔跑，或者提前发出某种警示信号，否则根本来不及开火。
随后，他们将目光转向古老的投掷武器——投枪器（atlatl）。福雷斯特坦言自己曾试过投枪器，发现想准确命中目标几乎是不可能的。乔提到其好友亚当·格林特里（Adam Greentree）也是个喜欢尝试各种硬核技能的猎人，可能玩过这种古老器械。两人探讨了投枪器相比单纯用手扔标枪的优势：其核心在于机械杠杆原理。乔打了个生动的比方，就像平时遛狗用的抛球器（如 Chuckit! 投球杆），末端卡着球，轻轻一甩就能在不损伤肩膀的情况下把球扔出极远，手腕的抖动还能赋予它更强的爆发力。投枪器对标枪的作用完全一致，但要掌握其精准度，难度堪称登天。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 面对棕熊冲锋时的射击反应链
accDescr: 展示在棕熊快速冲锋时，射手拔枪上膛所需的动作步骤与时间劣势。
subgraph DefenseSteps ["应急防卫流程"]
A["发现棕熊冲锋"] --> B["拔出手枪"]
B --> C["拉套筒上膛"]
C --> D["解除保险"]
D --> E["举枪瞄准并击发"]
end
subgraph Outcome ["实战结果"]
E --> F{"是否留有充足距离？"}
F -- 否：近距离突发 --> G["来不及开枪：致命遭袭"]
F -- 是：百码外提前预判 --> H["成功打出有效自卫射击"]
end
```
---
### [01:50:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6646s) 现代复合弓的技术精确性对比原始射箭术
乔深入剖析了现代复合弓所搭载的尖端技术与传统弓箭（如反曲弓、长弓）乃至石器时代打猎之间的巨大鸿沟。乔解释称，自己射击复合弓时有一套严密的数字化系统：首先使用激光测距仪测出精准距离（例如 52 码），然后通过专门的射箭软件计算。软件会记录他使用的 500 格令重箭以及每秒数百英尺的箭速，自动生成精准的瞄准标尺贴纸（sight tape），让他在 52 码外甚至有理论可能击中硬币大小的目标。不仅如此，现代碳纤维箭支由高精度机器打造，每支箭的重量误差控制在 2 格令以内，重心前移（FOC）完美，符合空气动力学设计。
相比之下，使用没有机械偏心轮（cam）与滑轮系统的传统木质反曲弓或长弓，射手完全只能靠直觉与经验去估计抛物线弧度。在一些禁止使用测距仪的传统射箭比赛中，顶尖选手必须训练出肉眼精确判断 5 码、逐步倍增来推算总距离的能力。若换到远古时期，猎人手里拿的是自己削制的木箭和纯手工打制的石制箭头（打制石器 Flintknapping）。不同箭头之间可能存在 15 到 50 格令的重量偏差，气动外形极其粗糙，射出后在空中晃晃悠悠（plaining）。远古猎人不仅要克服这些装备缺陷，还面临着"若杀不死猎物，自己要么被咬死、要么饿死"的极度生存压力。
- **现代精密射箭参数**：乔使用的箭重约 500 格令（grain），依靠射箭测距软件生成对应特定箭速与重力的瞄尺贴纸。
- **无测距仪射箭技巧**：传统射箭高手通常以 5 码作为一个视觉基准单位，通过连续翻倍心算来评估目标距离。
- **手工石镞的不确定性**：手工剥落打制的石箭头在重量平衡与空气动力学上差异极大，远距离弹道极不稳定。
---
### [01:54:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6876s) 远古短面熊、巨型科迪亚克熊与弗雷德·贝尔的传奇
话题进一步延展到北美曾经生存的巨兽。福雷斯特提到密苏里州的一些洞穴中，至今仍能看到史前巨型短面熊（Short-faced bear）在泥壁上留下的爪印和它们冬眠洞穴的遗迹。两人开始讨论短面熊与现代巨型熊类的体型对比。乔指出短面熊直立高度据推测在 11 到 12 英尺甚至更高，但目前完全是基于骨骼测算，并没有完整的活体记录；而现存的科迪亚克棕熊（Kodiak bear）站立时也能达到这一惊人高度。
通过现场检索巨型科迪亚克棕熊的纪录，乔与福雷斯特核实了一组惊人数据：野外记录的最重科迪亚克熊达 1,656 磅（近 1 吨重），其后掌长达 18 英寸；而在人工饲养环境中，甚至有一头熊体重记录达到了 2,130 磅。乔提到自己在安克雷奇机场就曾见过一个巨大的标本展柜，展示着被猎获的庞大巨熊。
屏幕随后翻到了现代弓猎传奇人物弗雷德·贝尔（Fred Bear）在 1962 年创造世界纪录的照片。贝尔当年仅仅凭借一把没有任何现代科技辅助的简陋木质反曲弓和木箭，便猎杀了一头体型骇人的阿拉斯加巨熊。乔感叹弗雷德·贝尔是让现代弓猎运动风靡全球的教父级人物，但从人类生活方式的角度来看，这本身也展现了一种文明的奇特悖论：只有当社会物资极度充裕、获取食物变得过于容易时，人们才会产生这种"让我们放弃枪支、故意把狩猎变得无比艰难"的情怀与消遣。
- **科迪亚克棕熊纪录数据**：野外猎获纪录重达 1,656 磅，后足印长达 18 英寸；圈养纪录更突破 2,130 磅。
- **密苏里州史前熊穴**：短面熊在古老洞穴的泥泞岩壁上留下了巨大的抓痕遗迹。
- **弗雷德·贝尔的成就**：1962 年使用传统反曲弓与木箭猎杀创纪录的阿拉斯加巨熊，被公认为现代弓箭狩猎运动的开创者。
### [01:57:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7076s) 弓箭狩猎中的挑战、竞争的本质与资本主义的驱动力
对话从弓猎运动中对难度和挑战的追求展开。乔·罗根提到，很多弓箭手如今不喜欢复合弓（compound bows），因为用复合弓打猎“太容易了”，他们转而选择只使用反曲弓（recurve bows）。罗根以他的好友、世界著名的弓猎大师亚伦·斯奈德（Aaron Snyder）为例，斯奈德就是因为用复合弓猎杀的猎物太多、觉得缺乏挑战，才重新用回了原始的反曲弓。福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）指出，当顶级专家在某项技艺上达到炉火纯青的境界后，自然会思考“如何给自己增加更大的挑战”，同时这也是同行顶级猎人之间“争夺谁是老大”的一种虚荣心与自尊心（ego）的较量。
罗根进一步探讨了竞争的积极意义。他指出，很多人习惯批判竞争，但人类现代文明的物质成果恰恰源于竞争——比如人们手中的智能手机、笔记本电脑和高速互联网，都是无数人在市场中为了胜过对手、获取巨额利润而研发出来的。加兰特和罗根均赞同“竞争是人类文化和进步必不可少的核心动力”，罗根借此直言“这就是为什么社会主义永远行不通”，因为如果没有丰厚回报的激励，就没有人会付出常人难以想象的艰苦努力去创造惊艳的科技与产品。然而，加兰特也提醒道，必须设立合理的监管机制，以防那些在竞争中获胜的巨头失控，进而垄断市场甚至掌控整个国家。
- **反曲弓与复合弓的对比**：复合弓机械辅助多、精准度极高；顶级猎手为了追求极致挑战和纯粹技艺，往往选择回归容错率更低的反曲弓。
- **竞争与技术进步的关系**：智能手机、高速网络与个人电脑的诞生皆依赖激烈的市场竞争与商业回报机制。
---
### [01:59:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7176s) 微软 90 年代反垄断危机与比尔·盖茨的形象重塑
随着监管与垄断话题的展开，罗根提到了 20 世纪 90 年代微软公司（Microsoft）引发的反垄断风暴。加兰特对当年的细节记忆模糊，罗根便回忆起当时的比尔·盖茨（Bill Gates）在公众眼里是个不折不扣的“狂人”和冷酷无情的资本家。当时美国司法部联合 20 个州对微软发起了里程碑式的反垄断诉讼（United States v. Microsoft Corp.），指控微软通过捆绑 Windows 系统与 IE 浏览器、恶意排挤网景（Netscape）等竞争对手的浏览器，利用垄断地位扼杀科技行业的创新。
期间加兰特一度将比尔·盖茨与好莱坞导演詹姆斯·卡梅隆（James Cameron）混淆，误以为盖茨投资制作了那部宣扬纯素食主义能让健美选手变得强壮的 Netflix 纪录片《游戏改变者》（*The Game Changers*）。罗根纠正指出卡梅隆的妻子才是纯素食者，虽然反工厂化农业在伦理上有可取之处，但该片带有极其强烈的片面预设，且内容违背科学事实。言归正传，罗根指出在反垄断审判之后，盖茨的名声一度跌入谷底，于是他开始了一场彻底的自我形象重塑：一方面向 NBC、CBS、CNN 等主流媒体捐赠数亿美元来建立良好关系，另一方面与当时的妻子成立了比尔及梅琳达·盖茨基金会（Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation），以“全球健康与慈善”之名成功将自己包装成了现代慈善资本家。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 比尔·盖茨的公众形象演变流程
accDescr: 展示从90年代反垄断官司到慈善基金会重塑再到疫情期间争议的转变历程。
subgraph Phase1 ["1990年代：残酷资本家"]
A["微软系统与浏览器捆绑"] --> B["美国司法部及20州反垄断起诉"]
end
subgraph Phase2 ["形象重塑：慈善资本主义"]
B --> C["向主流媒体资助数亿美元"]
C --> D["成立比尔及梅琳达·盖茨基金会"]
D --> E["倡导全球公共卫生与消灭疾病"]
end
subgraph Phase3 ["近期争议"]
E --> F["慈善事业中谋取数亿美元商业利益"]
E --> G["疫情期间公开大力推销疫苗"]
E --> H["与杰弗里·爱泼斯坦的密切关联"]
end
```
---
### [02:02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7323s) 善意的生态灾难：防疟蚊帐摧毁赞比西河流域渔业
提到盖茨基金会的全球健康项目，加兰特情绪激动地开启了一段深度控诉。他以莫桑比克卡博拉巴萨水库三角洲（Cabora Bassa Delta，赞比西河流域的关键鱼类育幼地）为例，痛陈盖茨基金会“好心办坏事”所带来的生态灾难。当时基金会为了消灭非洲的疟疾，向当地部落村民免费发放了数以百万计的防蚊蚊帐。然而，西方慈善家们完全忽略了当地最基础的人性和生存现实：当地原住民世代靠捕鱼为生，面对饥饿，村民们立刻发现防蚊蚊帐是绝佳的渔网。
蚊帐的网眼极其细密，连蚊子都无法穿透，因此当被拉入水域捕鱼时，它们变成了无差别的“绝户网”。河流里原本用于繁衍后代的大量幼鱼和鱼苗被彻底捕杀殆尽。卡博拉巴萨原本是非洲最富饶淡水渔业基地之一，当地原住民几千年来习惯在充满烟火的泥屋里靠火堆熏蚊子、有自己的生存智慧，并未因疟疾而灭绝。但蚊帐进入后，整个淡水鱼类繁殖系统被彻底毁灭，鱼群数量断崖式崩溃。原本资源充沛、不会闹饥荒的区域，在短短几年内出现了普遍的严重饥荒，当地人如今不仅要承受疟疾，还要承受毁灭性绝收带来的饥饿。加兰特表示，直到如今基金会仍在这里发放蚊帐，而人们排队领到蚊帐后转头就拿去捞鱼，造成了无法挽回的生态与人道主义双重灾难。
- **卡博拉巴萨三角洲的生态角色**：赞比西河（Zambezi Valley）最重要的“鱼类摇篮”，大量淡水鱼类在此产卵育幼。
- **细密蚊帐的破坏性**：0.5毫米左右的网眼可彻底网罗所有初生鱼苗，直接斩断鱼类繁殖链条，引发全水域食物链坍塌。
- **反常后果**：原本旨在降低疟疾发病率的公共卫生项目，反而在当地制造了严重的粮食危机与营养不良。
---
### [02:05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7500s) 对“慈善资本主义”的质疑与爱泼斯坦疑云
针对盖茨基金会的种种行为，罗根直截了当地指出，这根本不能完全算作善意，而是一场巨大的“骗局”（ruse）。这种“慈善资本主义”表面上在高喊拯救世界，实际上却通过背后的专利、投资和产业链获取了数亿美元的暴利，不仅收买了公众声誉，还逃避了严苛的审查。
罗根更表达了对盖茨涉足公共卫生领域的不解与反感。他指出盖茨连大学都没毕业（甚至调侃不知道他有没有读完高中），本身毫无医学或公共卫生学术背景，其自身体型和健康状态也显得相当糟糕，却在电视镜头前大肆充当疫苗和健康的权威代言人。对话最后，罗根提到了盖茨最为人诟病的污点之一——与臭名昭著的杰弗里·爱泼斯坦（Jeffrey Epstein）过从甚密并保持长期往来，这一爆料让此前并不了解此事的加兰特大感震惊。
### [02:05:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7555s) 比尔·盖茨的访谈回应与罗根收到的神秘会面邀请
对话切入围绕杰弗里·爱泼斯坦（Jeffrey Epstein）展开的庞大关系网。主持人乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）和嘉宾福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）讨论起比尔·盖茨（Bill Gates）在接受电视专访时被问及与爱泼斯坦关系的经典片段。当时女记者犀利发问盖茨是否后悔与爱泼斯坦交往，盖茨辩解称接触对方纯粹是为了给全球卫生慈善事业募集资金，并承认这是一个错误，但随后盖茨说出一句耐人寻味的话：“嗯，他现在已经死了，所以就这样吧（Well, he's dead now, so there's that.）。”罗根指出，这句话听起来极其诡异，甚至带着某种含蓄的威胁或者暗示——就仿佛在说“这人被干掉了（he got whacked）”，让人脊背发凉。
加兰特提到自己曾和朋友闲聊：如果爱泼斯坦的事情发生在今天，而外界对其私人岛屿上的勾当一无所知，像罗根这样具有巨大影响力的人肯定会被邀请。出人意料的是，罗根透露自己早在 2017 年就遭遇过这种情况——当时有人在洛杉矶主动接触他，试图牵线安排他去见爱泼斯坦，罗根当时的第一反应完全是莫名其妙。
两人调出了那段盖茨的受访原声片段：
- 记者直截了当地指出，盖茨在爱泼斯坦因招揽未成年人卖淫被定罪后，依然与其多次共进晚餐、长年保持会面。
- 盖茨语带结巴地重复表示自己感到后悔，坚称只是为了探讨全球卫生慈善基金，并在发现没有结果后切断了联系。
- 当被追问从中汲取了什么教训时，盖茨丢出了那句标志性的回答：“他已经死了，所以……一般来说，你必须时刻保持小心。”
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 爱泼斯坦利用资金诱饵接触顶层名流
accDescr: 展示爱泼斯坦如何以虚假资金和慈善为由头接触比尔盖茨等百亿富翁
subgraph EpsteinTactic ["爱泼斯坦的社交诱饵"]
E1["承诺巨额慈善捐赠 / 拓展名流人脉"]
E2["举办不受规则束缚的私人派对与聚会"]
end
subgraph EliteResponse ["名流与顶级富豪的互动"]
G1["比尔·盖茨等百亿富翁多次会面"]
G2["以『筹集全球卫生善款』为由维持交往"]
end
subgraph Aftermath ["崩塌后的公关回应"]
A1["公开表示极度后悔 (Regret)"]
A2["诡异辩解：『他现在已经死了，必须小心』"]
end
E1 --> G1
E2 --> G1
G1 --> G2
G2 --> A1
A1 --> A2
```
---
### [02:09:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7741s) 荒谬的慈善借口与未发送的勒索草稿
罗根对盖茨的说辞提出了尖锐质疑：盖茨本人坐拥数百亿乃至上千亿美元的财富，却声称见爱泼斯坦是为了“拉赞助、筹集慈善资金”，这在逻辑上根本站不住脚。这就像埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）跑来找普通人化缘一样荒唐——一个身家不如盖茨九牛一毛的人，怎么可能让盖茨为了所谓的捐款连续几年不断赴约？罗根直言，爱泼斯坦本质上是在为这群顶级富豪组织没有任何规则的地下派对，让他们能够彻底放飞自我，享用毒品与美女。
随后两人聊起被曝光的爱泼斯坦未发送邮件草稿：
- 草稿中爱泼斯坦似乎在记录自己写给自己的内容，声称盖茨在与俄罗斯女性幽会后染上了性传播疾病（STI），并瞒着梅琳达（Melinda）藏匿抗生素。
- 盖茨的发言人对此断然否认，斥其荒谬绝伦；尽管盖茨后来承认曾婚内出轨过两名俄罗斯女性及一名微软员工，但强调均与爱泼斯坦无关。
- 罗根推测，爱泼斯坦习惯在 iPad 上打字记日记（这也是文中错别字极多的原因），或者这类草稿根本就是他精心准备的勒索筹码——他完全可以把写好的草稿拿给盖茨看，借此勒索数额惊人的资金或封口费。
---
### [02:11:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7912s) 维多利亚的秘密、莫萨德猜想与暗中操控科学家的野心
两人的讨论进一步深入到爱泼斯坦背后的庞大人脉与黑暗历史：
- 罗根提到“维多利亚的秘密”（Victoria's Secret）老板莱斯·韦克斯纳（Les Wexner）不仅把豪宅送给爱泼斯坦，甚至将个人 100% 的财务掌控权都交给了他；而在更早的 1984 年，该品牌的一名税务人员在准备向美国国税局（IRS）作证前夕遭到了黑帮处决式的枪杀。加兰特感叹，自己本是个研究野生动物和蛇类的学者，没想到在播客里听到了这么深不可测的阴谋内幕。
- 罗根从“人类动物学”的角度进行剖析：试想一个从小在社交和女性面前自卑的典型技术宅男，突然暴富手握千亿资产，面对来自前情报机构（如传闻中的摩萨德/Mossad）背景的说客所提供的高端应召女郎、私人岛屿与奢华派对，极容易深陷泥潭。
不仅如此，爱泼斯坦对顶尖科学家也表现出异乎寻常的兴趣：
- 爱泼斯坦特意在新墨西哥州购置了佐罗农场（Zorro Ranch），目的是接近洛斯阿拉莫斯国家实验室（Los Alamos）那些收入微薄的顶尖物理学家，用巨额商业回报拉拢他们。
- 著名学者埃里克·韦恩斯坦（Eric Weinstein）曾与爱泼斯坦有过一次会面。韦恩斯坦敏锐地察觉到爱泼斯坦根本不懂现代金融，直言“这个人完全是一个被凭空塑造出来的虚构产物（construct）”，从而拒绝与其合作。
- 媒体报道还披露，爱泼斯坦曾痴迷于优生学，妄图利用自己的 DNA 在农场批量受孕，培育出所谓的人类“超级种族”。
### [02:14:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8069s) 亿万富翁的做局手段与科学界的关系
两人由《纽约时报》（The New York Times）的一篇报道切入，探讨了杰弗里·爱泼斯坦（Jeffrey Epstein）当年在科学界织就的复杂人际网。乔·罗根指出，此人不仅与多位顶尖科学家和物理学家过从甚密，甚至还微妙地牵扯进不明空中现象（UAP）的圈子。最离奇之处在于他在新墨西哥州购置的农场——该地点紧邻著名的洛斯阿拉莫斯国家实验室（Los Alamos），从而让他能够轻而易举地接触到这批科学家。当时洛斯阿拉莫斯的学者们收入微薄、待遇极低，而爱泼斯坦却坐拥无人能合理解释的滔天巨富，没人真正知道他拉拢这些科学家的背后图谋究竟为何。
福雷斯特·加兰特与罗根分析了这类骗子的行事做派。福雷斯特推测，爱泼斯坦极可能擅长扮演极富亲和力的社交家，初次见面时往往让人产生如沐春风的错觉，不知不觉就落入其圈套，而外衣之下实则是个彻头彻尾的卑鄙小人。罗根则一针见血地调侃，当一个富豪身边总是围绕着年轻貌美的俄罗斯女郎时，根本连个人魅力都不需要展现，那些贪图名利与奢靡派对的人便会趋之若鹜。普通亿万富翁往往每天狂热工作十八到二十个小时、舍弃所有个人生活，既无趣又枯燥，但爱泼斯坦却以奢靡放荡的享乐著称。正如埃里克·韦恩斯坦（Eric Weinstein）所总结的那样，爱泼斯坦之所以能吸引大批顶尖学者，正是因为他能为他们“提供他们无法触及的极端体验”（provided them with experiences）。
### [02:16:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8195s) 财富的相对性与阿南特·安巴尼的动物保护区
福雷斯特谈到了自己认识的唯一一位亿万富翁朋友——印度首富之子阿南特·安巴尼（Anant Ambani）。阿南特依托家族五六代积累的巨额工业财富，没有去追求烧钱的太空竞赛，而是将多余的财富投入到建立庞大的野生动物救助基地（Vantara）中。福雷斯特亲切地称他为“和我一样的动物极客”，盛赞他用巨资拯救生灵是财富最具价值的用法。虽然罗根对富豪探索太空也抱有浓厚兴趣，但两人一致认同，把资金投入动物保育在当下难能可贵。
随后二人探讨了公众对极端财富的批判心理。很多人常抱怨世界贫富不均，认为富豪应该捐出全部财产，但若放眼全球，财富的门槛往往远比人们想象的要残酷。罗根指出，只要一个人的年收入达到五六万美元，就已经身处全球前 1% 的顶层富裕群体之中，这意味着哪怕在美国仅能勉强维持生计的底层蓝领，放在全球坐标下也是绝对的少数特权阶层。人类复杂的社会经济结构让他们感叹人类是“地球上最古怪的动物”；相比于研究人类时常引发的荒诞与无力感，观察拥有獠牙、利爪和奇异习性的野生动物要纯粹且迷人得多。
### [02:18:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8305s) 刚果的新物种与神秘的“邦多猿”之谜
话题随即转向刚果雨林中不断涌现的神秘灵长类动物。罗根提起最近在刚果新发现的一种猴子，其嘴唇周围带有极鲜艳的橙色印记，活像刚啃完冰棒的孩子。即便在现代科技如此发达的今天，雨林中仍有全新灵长类物种被记录在案，这让福雷斯特感到无比振奋。罗根顺势向他询问是否相信传说中体型庞大、凶悍残暴的“邦多猿”（Bondo ape，又称比利猿 Bili ape）。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 邦多猿的生物学特征与生态假说
accDescr: 展示学术界与探险家对刚果邦多猿的体型、头骨结构及生态行为特征的推断与争议。
subgraph 生态隔离与族群假说
A["刚果偏远密林隔离"] --> B["独立演化的黑猩猩亚群"]
B --> C["体型显著大于普通黑猩猩"]
B --> D["极具攻击性与领地意识"]
end
subgraph 生理解剖与传说
C --> E["头骨具显著矢状嵴<br/>(Cranial Ridge)"]
E --> F["提供更强大的下颌肌附着面<br/>(咬合力接近大猩猩/鬣狗)"]
D --> G["食狮猿传说与双足直立行走"]
end
```
福雷斯特给出了审慎的看法：他认为邦多猿“既真实又非完全如传闻那般神化”。它大概率不是什么全新物种或神秘怪物，而是一个长期与世隔绝、体格显著增大、攻击性极强的黑猩猩大家族，民间甚至传闻它们能捕食狮子。罗根补充道，该种群的头骨结构与其他黑猩猩存在差异，具有明显的颅脊（矢状嵴，cranial ridge）。福雷斯特解释说，这种骨骼突起是强健咀嚼肌的附着面，正如鬣狗和大猩猩那样，说明其下颌力量异常恐怖。摄影师卡尔·阿曼（Karl Ammann）耗费半生追踪传闻，通过红外相机捕捉到了它们双足站立行走的影像，证实了这群隐秘巨猿的真实存在。
### [02:20:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8449s) 巨猿对峙与现实版“猩球崛起”
罗根提到了一张广为人知的照片：在刚果某座简易机场旁，有猎人猎杀了一只体格骇人的巨大黑猩猩，两名成年男子站在尸体旁边合影。罗根强调，从照片中握持尸体的手部透视来看，画面绝无利用广角强行制造透视差的欺骗成分；如果那两个当地向导是正常成年人身材，那只黑猩猩坐姿下的头部比例与躯干体积完全碾压人类，极有可能就是邦多猿实体。
除个体体型差异外，猿类社会内部与跨物种的冲突同样充满戏剧性。罗根分享了一处真实的野外奇观：在刚果的某条河流两岸（推测为克罗斯河流域周边），时常上演黑猩猩群与大猩猩群隔河对峙的场景。当两条河流交汇处的特定浅滩出现资源争夺时，两个类人猿家族会分别驻扎在河岸两侧，彼此投掷石块与泥土、疯狂嘶吼并展示力量，甚至进行跨河挑衅，宛如现实版的“猩球崛起”（Planet of the Apes）。当被问及黑猩猩群体间爆发残酷战争的根源是食物还是领地时，福雷斯特指出，目前科学界对此机制尚未完全洞悉，但这种有组织的大规模暴力在很大程度上并非单一的物质驱动，而是一种类似于人类社会的复杂“社会建构”（social construct）。
### [02:22:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8523s) 黑猩猩的派系战争与跨物种互动
对话从黑猩猩群体内部的残酷冲突展开。当一个族群的人口过度膨胀，出现男多女少的失衡局面时，暴力冲突便不可避免——正如人类历史上的罗马帝国或蒙古帝国时期一样。福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）讲述了一群原本和睦共处的黑猩猩案例：族群内部逐渐崛起两位新领袖，伴随着雌性资源的匮乏，曾经的大家族彻底分裂为两个敌对阵营。它们生活在同一片相邻领地内，却陷入了长达一两年的持续内战，双方只要相遇便大打出手，誓死争夺统领整个“超级族群”（mega troop）的唯一阿尔法（Alpha）领袖地位。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）感叹这与人类的行为模式如出一辙：“这太像人类了——‘我们曾是同一拨人，但现在我看你不顺眼，这边是我的地盘，那边是你的地盘，我们非把对方弄死不可。’”
随后，屏幕上显示出一条引人注目的研究标题：“研究揭示大猩猩与黑猩猩之间的‘炮友’关系”（friends with benefits）。罗根见状忍不住开玩笑调侃，质疑两伙灵长类怎么可能发生这种关系。加兰特和制作人员随即澄清，这只是年轻个体之间的友好社交与跨物种互动，它们聚集在同一片无花果树上取食果实。加兰特打趣道，日常生活中可不能乱用这个词：“你总不能说‘我跟鲍勃一起去吃晚饭，因为我们是炮友’吧！”更有趣的是科研人员记录到的文化模仿现象：研究人员发现黑猩猩竟然开始学着大猩猩的姿态捶胸顿足，而这种行为此前从未在黑猩猩自身习性中被观察到，纯粹是跨物种互相学习模仿的结果。
- 领地与配偶争夺驱动黑猩猩内战，族群分裂后的血腥对抗可持续数年之久。
- 刚果流域的年轻黑猩猩与大猩猩会在同一果树（无花果）上和平共处并共享食物。
- 黑猩猩被观测到罕见地模仿大猩猩标志性的“捶胸”示威动作。
### [02:23:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8615s) 《不屈的宿敌》：岛屿巨型化与捕食开普水牛的“浩克”狮群
话题随后转向野生动物令人震撼的适应演化。罗根提到了一部著名的纪录片《不屈的宿敌》（*Relentless Enemies*）：由于河道改道，一群狮子被完全困在一座孤岛上，岛上唯一的猎物只有开普水牛（Cape buffalo）。为了生存，这个狮群只能专攻这种体型庞大且性情暴烈的巨兽。由于捕猎重任完全落在雌狮肩上，长期直面这种极度凶险的对抗，导致这群雌狮的身躯变得硕大无朋、肌肉暴起，体格甚至超过了其他地区的雄狮，看起来就像是一群“浩克狮”（Hulk lions）。
加兰特指出，这是在现实中实时上演的自然选择。开普水牛在非洲被敬畏地称为“黑死病”（The Black Death），它们不仅体格庞大，而且极具攻击性，常常毫无征兆地向捕食者发起致命冲撞。面对这种体型是自身数倍的庞然大物，母狮稍有不慎被踢中面部，下颌骨碎裂便意味着再也无法进食，只能在痛苦中活活饿死。两人进而探讨了岛屿环境对生物演化的极端塑造：无论是“岛屿矮化”（insular dwarfism）还是“岛屿巨型化”（insular gigantism），孤岛上的生物往往走上极端体型。例如加拉帕戈斯群岛或塞舌尔群岛的巨龟，在缺乏天敌且食物资源极其充沛的环境下，唯有不断增大体型才能在同类竞争中占据优势。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 岛屿孤立环境下狮群的极端演化闭环
accDescr: 流程图展示了河流改道后狮群被困孤岛，只能猎捕凶险的开普水牛，最终通过自然选择演化出巨型骨骼与强悍肌肉的过程。
subgraph GeoEnv["地理隔离与食物受限"]
A["河流自然改道"] --> B["狮群被困孤岛环境"]
B --> C["岛上唯一稳定猎物：开普水牛（黑死病）"]
end
subgraph SelectionPressure["致命捕猎与生存淘汰"]
C --> D["单次猎物重达狮子数倍，极度凶残暴躁"]
D --> E["力量不足或失误的雌狮面临颌骨碎裂与饿死"]
end
subgraph Adaptation["自然选择与体型剧变"]
E --> F["唯有骨骼粗大、肌肉极度发达的母狮得以幸存"]
F --> G["演化出体格堪比外地雄狮的“浩克母狮”群"]
end
```
- 开普水牛因致死率高、极易主动进攻而被非洲猎人冠以“黑死病”恶名。
- 纪录片《不屈的宿敌》记录了母狮在没有雄狮协助的情况下群体拖垮水牛的罕见生存模式。
- 岛屿巨型化通常由缺乏天敌与食物资源丰足驱动，体型变大成为同类竞争胜出的关键。
### [02:26:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8761s) 刚果密林中的未知灵长类与“迷失物种”
自然的动态演进让生物学理论时刻处在被改写之中。罗根与加兰特谈到近期刚果盆地发现的新灵长类物种，例如面部特征奇特、嘴唇带有鲜明橙色调的灵长类动物（如洛马米长尾猴/勒苏拉猴）。罗根提到早在 2000 年代初英国广播公司（BBC）拍摄的刚果纪录片，镜头下那片未知森林的诡谲令人叹为观止。
加兰特列举了生物学界著名的“迷失灵长类”（lost primates）——那些仅在历史上被记录过一两次、采集过少量标本后便销声匿迹的神秘动物，最典型的例子便是“瓦氏红疣猴”（Miss Waldron's red colobus）。整个科学界目前仅存三到四个博物馆剥制标本，从未有人拍到过活体影像。罗根好奇它为何被冠以“瓦尔德隆女士”（Miss Waldron）之名，两人调侃起背后的命名轶事。加兰特严肃地解释道，外人总轻率地质疑“为什么科学家不去把这些动物找出来”，真相是刚果腹地的地理环境极端恶劣险峻，地缘冲突与武装危险更让科考几乎等同于自杀。当地的土著猎人其实天天捕杀并食用这些动物，他们心知肚明这些生灵的存在，只是外界科学界完全无法建立有效的信息互通。
- 瓦氏红疣猴（*Piliocolobus waldronae*）原产于西非，因长期未见活体曾被多次推测灭绝，科学界仅掌握极少数博物馆藏标本。
- 刚果雨林深处因政局动荡、疾病流行和极端闭塞，成为世界上科考难度与危险性最高的“生物黑洞”。
- 所谓“迷失物种”往往早已是当地丛林原住民的常见猎物，断层存在于传统部落与现代分类学之间。
### [02:27:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8877s) 神秘生物传闻与被地图低估的非洲大陆尺度
关于森林中是否仍潜藏着未知神秘生物（Cryptids），罗根询问是否有类似传说中的巨型地懒等生物可能存活。加兰特笑着提到了在刚果广为流传的“刚果恐龙”（魔克拉-姆边贝，Mokele-mbembe），尽管这种传闻听起来荒诞不经，但罗根透露艺术家大卫·乔（David Choe）当年就曾亲自深入刚果雨林搜寻过它的踪迹。加兰特表示，自己虽然坚信塔斯马尼亚虎（袋狼）尚存而经常被当作“戴锡纸帽的阴谋论者”，但不可否认的是，如果我们彻底放弃寻找，就永远无法证实那些流传在亚马逊或刚果深处关于奇异树懒或“亚洲独角兽”（中南羚/萨欧拉）的目击报告。
加兰特惊叹于刚果雨林的辽阔程度，甚至提出刚果雨林的宽度几乎能匹敌美国本土横跨大陆的尺度。两人由此聊到了地图绘制带来的严重认知偏差：在常用的墨卡托投影法（Mercator projection）地图上，高纬度陆地被严重拉伸变形，导致人们普遍严重低估了非洲大陆的真正面积——将整个美国本土置于非洲轮廓之内，非洲依然显得无比辽阔。两人最后还吐槽了地球仪上蜿蜒曲折的时区边界（Time zones），那些像扭曲拼图般横跨三四个时区格子的岛屿边界划分，在直觉上同样荒谬而令人困惑。
- 刚果盆地拥有仅次于亚马逊的世界第二大热带雨林，庞大的未开发面积为未定种生物提供了栖息庇护。
- 中南羚（Saola）被称为“亚洲独角兽”，属于极少数直到 20 世纪末才被现代科学正式确认的神秘大型哺乳动物。
- 常见的传统世界地图因投影变形严重压缩了赤道附近大陆的视觉面积，导致非洲大陆的真实地表面积在公众认知中被严重缩小。
### [02:29:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8989s) 非洲大陆的真实体量与2027年埃及日全食
乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）在查看地图时惊叹于非洲大陆及其内部区域的广袤。人们常常低估刚果盆地的体量，虽然它在视觉重叠对比上大概占美国本土的三分之一左右（约35%），但整个非洲大陆的规模令人震撼——足以将全印度、东欧、美国、中国、法国和西班牙等一众大国悉数容纳其中。两人感慨非洲既是“文明的摇篮”，也是“人类的摇篮”。加兰特随即提及非洲北部的埃及即将迎来一场堪称世纪奇观的天文盛事：2027年将出现历史上持续时间极长的日全食。
这场预计发生在2027年的日全食，覆盖埃及和红海一带的全食阶段时长可达6分22秒，被称为近八十余年来持续时间最长的日食之一。罗根和加兰特兴奋地讨论，在金字塔前亲眼目睹长达六分多钟的天空完全黑透，绝对是终极体验，两人还打趣说“那正是外星人重返地球的时刻”。埃及该区域常年少云，观赏条件得天独厚，几乎必然能看清整个日冕细节。
- 非洲大陆整体面积足以完整容纳美国、中国、印度、东欧诸国以及西欧主要国家。
- 刚果盆地幅员辽阔，横跨数千英里，但因近期局势动荡给当地的科研与探索带来了诸多阻碍。
- 2027年日全食在埃及上空的暗光阶段长达6分22秒，预计会成为全球天文爱好者前往金字塔朝圣的绝佳契机。
---
### [02:31:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9083s) 日全食期间的自然异象与远古恐慌
罗根分享了大约两年前在得克萨斯州亲身体验日全食的经历。让他印象最深刻的并不是视线变暗本身，而是天地间那种令人毛骨悚然的静谧：在日食真正来临前，所有的鸟兽虫鸣在一瞬间骤然停息，整个大自然仿佛预感到某种异变即将来临。随着阴影彻底笼罩，万物寂然无声，场面异常震撼。
加兰特与罗根进而探讨远古人类面对日食时的心理状态。在现代科学揭示天体运行规律之前，古人突然看到白昼化为黑夜，必然会认为天地法则崩塌、进入了某种诡异的超自然时刻。两人开玩笑表示，换作数千年前的部落族群，此刻大家肯定会恐慌地大喊“赶快抓个人去金字塔献祭挖心”，以此平息神怒。他们还感叹日全食本身在几何学上的不可思议——虽然月球的体积远比太阳小得多，但由于日地距离和月地距离的比例巧合得近乎精密，从地球上看去，月球恰好能完整遮蔽太阳的圆盘，只露出一圈辉煌的日冕外环，犹如“奥利奥饼干和夹心一般完美契合”。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: Solar Eclipse Geometric Alignment
accDescr: Diagram illustrating the coincidental alignment of the Moon perfectly blocking the Sun as seen from Earth.
subgraph Space ["天体运行比例"]
Sun["太阳<br/>（体积巨大、距离遥远）"]
Moon["月球<br/>（体积较小、距离较近）"]
end
subgraph EarthView ["地球视角观测"]
Eclipse["完美契合日全食<br/>（仅露出一圈日冕）"]
end
Sun -->|"角直径匹配"| Moon
Moon -->|"完全遮挡"| EarthView
```
---
### [02:33:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9181s) 奇异阴谋论：空心月球与人造卫星假说
由日月的精准比例出发，罗根谈到民间流传的一系列脑洞大开的阴谋论。其中最极端的假说认为“月球是伪造的人造天体”——不仅内部中空，而且是外星智慧生物为了在地球上维持生命、锁定地轴倾角与稳定轨道而特意拖运到此的超级空间站。加兰特听闻后不禁失笑，罗根则进一步分析，月球的存在对于潮汐和地球气候稳定确实起到了不可替代的锚定作用，如果没有月球，地球的脆弱生态系统可能根本无法维系。
罗根让制作人杰米（Jamie）调取天文数据进行查证。月球是太阳系第五大卫星，直径相当于美国本土大陆的宽度。虽然木星和土星拥有更大的卫星，但考虑到母星与卫星的相对比例，月球相对于地球而言异常庞大，甚至常被天文学家称为“双行星系统”（Double Planet System）。这种异乎寻常的尺寸对比，在阴谋论圈子中更被附会为外星飞船存在的“证据”。
- 月球是太阳系中第五大卫星，直径跨度接近美国本土的东西宽度。
- 相比木星、土星巨大的体积，其卫星比例较小；而地月质量与体积比例在整个太阳系行星系统中极为罕见。
- 阴谋论者以此衍生出月球是外星人制造的“戴森球式结构”或轨道控制站等奇谈怪论。
---
### [02:35:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9306s) “月球如钟鸣”与“宇宙是假象”的奇谈怪论
为了深挖这一传说，他们查阅了“月球撞击震动”的历史来源。罗根指出，曾经有实验在撞击月球后测得了长达近一个小时的震荡回响，这一现象被通俗地描述为“月球像一口大钟般回响”。屏幕资料显示，该说法最早源自1969年11月的阿波罗12号任务：NASA当时故意将登月舱的上升级撞向月面，留在地表的月震仪记录到了长达近一小时的持续震动。科学界的解释是，月球岩石极度干燥、冰冷，缺乏液态水来吸收和衰减冲击波，因此震波会长时间在地壳中来回回荡，这纯粹是一种地质物理现象。
然而这一通俗比喻却被民间附会为“月球内部中空”的铁证，甚至演化出月球背面存在外星人城市或基地的传闻。杰米在维基百科上检索出“宇宙飞船月球假说”（Spaceship Moon Theory），该理论由两位苏联研究人员米哈伊尔·瓦西里（Mikhail Vasin）和亚历山大·谢尔巴科夫（Alexander Shcherbakov）于1970年提出，他们甚至异想天开地宣称月壳内部包裹着一层用以抵御陨石撞击的“钛合金装甲外壳”。加兰特打趣这简直就是《星球大战》里的死星，并感叹现代人真是太闲了；罗根则坦言自己非常享受这类荒诞的狂想，笑称自己常在网络上搜索“#太空是伪造的”（#SpaceIsFake）标签，看着各路阴谋论者甚至某些故意编造钓鱼理论的网友在信息漩涡中狂欢。
### [02:38:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9499s) 阴谋论社群、神秘生物与人类对自然的认知傲慢
两人从网络论坛上的阴谋论讨论切入。像 Reddit 和 4chan 这样的平台往往充斥着各种离奇言论，不少人出于好玩抛出荒谬概念，却迅速演变成坚固的小圈子。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）调侃道，这就像地平论者每逢周六聚会互相印证地球不是圆的一样，人们靠着古怪的想法找到了归属感，建立起“属于自己的疯子社群”。大脚怪猎人乃至各路神秘生物（Cryptids）爱好者也是同理，罗根戏谑地称他们是一帮“无人问津、四处寻找虚构生物的白人小伙”。
当被问及世界上是否还有真正值得玩味的神秘生物时，福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）坦言，从现实角度来看几乎没有，但他非常喜欢那些植根于乡野传说、背后却有真实动物支撑的故事。例如某个村庄世代流传着“钻在泥里、唯有村民挖庄稼时才会咬人”的神奇毒蛇传说，外人初听会觉得纯属凭空捏造的神秘怪物，但追查下去往往会发现，泥下确实生活着一种习性隐秘的特殊蛇类。它根本不是什么怪物，只是从未有研究者专门去泥土深处探寻过。
罗根指出，生活在当今时代的人类拥有一种奇特的傲慢：正因为人类相比两三百年前发现了无数自然奥秘，便自以为已经精确统计并查清了地球上的每一种生物。加兰特对此深表赞同，认为人类总是习惯于宣称“我们已经量化了一切并掌握了所有答案”，而这种自负正蒙蔽着人们对未探索生灵的敬畏。
### [02:40:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9622s) 学术界的“物种分化竞赛”与畸形的科研资助体系
加兰特进一步揭露了当前生物科研界普遍存在的“物种分化竞赛”（Speciation race）。在当前的科研评价体系下，研究人员需要源源不断的科研经费来维持工作，而获取资金最立竿见影的手段就是发表轰动性论文。于是，许多学者开始热衷于将原本差异极小的生物硬性拆分成独立物种——哪怕它们只是生活在同一条小溪的两岸，或者栖息在同一座山的不同山坡上，只要找到微小的基因或外形差异，就能宣布发现了“新物种”。
这种做法导致科研资助被无意义地分散，甚至严重反噬了物种保护本身。加兰特解释道，如果原本一类亟待保护的青蛙被人为拆解成四个细分亚种，公众和决策层反而会觉得“既然有四种青蛙，那灭绝其中一种又有什么所谓”，从而大幅削弱了物种整体的保护紧迫性。科研人员为了抢夺头条和经费，把精力全耗费在细枝末节的拆分上，使得生物学分类演变成了一场追逐名利的数字游戏。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 科学界物种分化与经费竞争的恶性循环
accDescr: 展示学术界因经费池匮乏而导致过度细分物种并损害保护工作的机制
subgraph FundingCycle["经费争夺与学术内耗"]
A["微小资金池\n有限的科研经费"] --> B["追求轰动效应\n争抢论文发表与曝光"]
B --> C["过度细分物种\n制造微小差异并命名新物种"]
end
subgraph Impact["保护维度的负面效应"]
C --> D["同行互相攻击\n证明彼此结论错误以争夺经费"]
C --> E["物种保护价值贬值\n公众产生灭绝单一细分种无所谓的错觉"]
D --> A
end
```
加兰特透露自己正在就这一乱象撰写新书。野生动物与自然保护体系在机制上已经出现脱节：投身动物研究的人大多性格内向、拙于人际交往，当这群不擅社交的人历经千辛万苦晋升为教授、项目负责人或学术权威时，却不得不挤在狭小的资金池前殊死竞争。三名学者本应携手拯救濒危物种，现实中却往往为了抢夺唯一的一笔经费彼此攻讦，拼命证明同行是错的、自己才是对的，最终把保护事业变成了学术内耗。
### [02:43:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9811s) 自然保护的核心标准与公众传播的力量
在探讨破局之道时，加兰特强调，自然保护的衡量标准本该极其纯粹直观，却被学术界搞得过于繁冗复杂。衡量保护成效的核心指标只有一个：在开展干预工作之后，目标动物的数量究竟是增加了还是减少了？如果你介入前有 1000 只青蛙，治理后在健康生态的支持下增加到了 2000 只，这就是实打实的保护成功。
然而现实中，学术系统却被汗牛充栋的复杂学术报告所绑架，产生严重的“信息过载”，使得普通公众完全无法理解也根本不关心。加兰特以席卷全球两栖动物的致命壶菌病（Chytrid fungus）为例：与其发表晦涩论文，不如向大众清晰传达“我们通过搭建砖块结构‘青蛙旅馆’（Frog hotels）为青蛙提供高温孵化环境来杀灭真菌”，只要旅馆建得足够多，青蛙数量就能回升。将复杂的科学问题转化为大众听得懂、愿意支持的实际行动，才是拓宽资金与资源池的根本路径。
罗根表示，这正是加兰特冒着危险钻进鳄鱼防沉笼拍摄视频的真正价值——唯有带来视觉冲击与真实故事，才能唤醒普通人对野生动物的兴趣。加兰特回应称，自己投身 YouTube 内容创作的目的正在于此，比起纯粹的流量收益，他更渴望让大众产生共鸣，因为唯有公众在乎，自然保护的整体资源池才会扩大。罗根随后提到了传奇自然纪录片大师戴维·阿滕伯勒（David Attenborough），赞誉他是开创现代野生动物纪录片叙事的先驱与历史最佳（GOAT），当年他首次向世人记录黑猩猩捕食猴子的珍贵画面，正是凭借深入浅出的生动解说与震撼真实的镜头，彻底改变了全球大众对自然界的感知方式。
- **物种分化门槛偏低**：在当下学术界，只需证明生物存在外观微调、特定遗传异常以及稳定种群，就能申报独立物种，成为获取资助的敲门砖。
- **青蛙旅馆防治壶菌**：通过人工砌造砖质小温室（Frog hotels），让携带致命壶菌的青蛙在其中加温以杀死真菌，是直观高效且易向公众普及的保护实例。
- **大众传播的辐射效应**：自然保护如果仅停留在学术期刊的内卷圈子，资金与关注度只会日益萎缩；通过大众媒体唤起公共意识，才能从根本上解决资源匮乏的困局。
### [02:46:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=9977s) 象牙塔里的“权威”：标本论文与野外观测的脱节
Forrest Galante 指出，现行科研体系中存在一个严重的缺陷：许多公认的“世界顶尖专家”甚至从未接触过、亲眼见过活体动物。他分享了一次让他哭笑不得的真实经历：团队为了考察一种特定鲨鱼，特意邀请了该物种的全球头号权威学者同行。这位女学者人非常和善，并已针对该物种发表了多达 50 篇学术论文。然而，当团队飞往地球另一端准备展开野外研究，在第一天喊她穿戴装备下海寻找鲨鱼时，对方却坦承自己根本不会游泳，甚至从未踏进过大海。
面对 Forrest 的错愕，该学者解释称，自己一辈子都在实验室里解剖福尔马林标本、数牙齿特征并撰写论文，从未在野外观察过一条活鲨鱼。Forrest 直言，隔壁村庄里天天捕捞并食用这种鲨鱼的普通渔民，在实践认知上都比这位顶尖权威更懂这种动物。但当下的科学晋升与认可机制却只认发表论文的数量，哪怕研究对象只是浸泡在“咸菜坛子”（pickle jar）里的死标本。
- **标本与现实脱节**：涉事学者发表了 50 篇论文，详尽研究牙齿计数与内部解剖结构，却既不会浮潜也不会游泳，从未见过活体。
- **野外观测的门槛**：Forrest 认为，成为某一物种的真正权威，必须兼备野外实地观测数据（observational data）与实验室数据，绝不能单靠标本推论一切。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 科学研究两种认知模式的对比
accDescr: 对比传统象牙塔标本研究与野外行为观测研究在方法、认知和权威性上的差异
subgraph Lab["传统标本科学体系"]
A["实验室浸制标本 / 解剖"] --> B["形态学测量 (如牙齿数量)"]
B --> C["发表数十篇学术论文"]
C --> D["学术界认定的'顶尖权威'"]
end
subgraph Field["野外观测与实践体系"]
E["长期野外实地驻扎"] --> F["记录真实行为与社交动态"]
F --> G["当地猎人 / 渔民 / 观察学者"]
G --> H["对活体动物生态的全面认知"]
end
```
---
### [02:48:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10089s) 建立无偏见的信任：《黑猩猩帝国》与野外生物学的本质
Joe Rogan 提到纪录片《黑猩猩帝国》（*Chimp Empire*）中的科学家，这些学者与特定的黑猩猩群落共同生活了超过 20 年。Forrest 对此高度赞同，认为这才是真正的科学研究。虽然在获取死体时切开测量犬齿是必要的解剖学基础，但唯有通过长达 20 年的守候，摸清它们的社会动态、等级阶层与复杂行为，才配称得上真正的物种权威。
两人探讨了这种沉浸式科研的奇妙之处。纪录片中的黑猩猩群落繁衍生息，人类研究员只要恪守基本行为规范——保持至少 20 码（约 18 米）距离、绝不携带任何食物、绝不与猩猩产生直接目光对视——就能在黑猩猩眼中彻底褪去“异常异物”的属性。黑猩猩把这些长期驻留的人类当成了环境背景的一部分，就像习惯了穿太空服的人在旁边一样，“他就只是个太空服人，我继续吃我的香蕉”，从而展现出最本真的自然行为。Forrest 比喻这就像非洲水塘边黑斑羚（Impala）与角马（Wildebeest）和平共处，它们彼此熟知且互不构成威胁，但一旦外来的人类靠近，双耳立刻竖起并四散奔逃。
- **非干预观测准则**：科研人员与黑猩猩共存的核心规范为保持 20 码距离、不带食物、避免眼神对视。
- **物种认知界限**：并非所有动物都能建立这种相安无事的“默契”；Forrest 指出，哪怕你花几十年蹲守观察一条鳄鱼，只要有机会，它仍然会毫不犹豫地把你吃掉。
---
### [02:50:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10221s) 从《灰熊人》到沃纳·赫尔佐格的西伯利亚自然记录
话题转向野外冒险的极端案例。Joe 和 Forrest 提到了尝试与阿拉斯加棕熊打成一片的“灰熊人”蒂莫西·特雷德韦尔（Timothy Treadwell），其最终命丧熊口。Joe 打趣称这本质上是“被熊实施的自杀”（Suicide by Bear），甚至认为沃纳·赫尔佐格（Werner Herzog）在剪辑纪录片《灰熊人》（*Grizzly Man*）时暗含了荒诞喜剧的色彩——比如片中警长接受采访时直截了当地评价特雷德韦尔“脑子有问题”，紧接着赫尔佐格便进行了极具幽默讽刺意味的硬切跳接。
Joe 随后推荐了赫尔佐格的另一部心头挚爱《幸福的人们：西伯利亚泰加林的一年》（*Happy People: A Year in the Taiga*）。影片记录了西伯利亚泰加森林深处维持传统自给自足生活方式的居民。他们驾驶雪地摩托、带着猎犬捕鱼、打猎、设陷阱、砍柴生火，即便面对长达数月乃至全年的独居与严寒，社区内部却几乎不存在心理疾病。人们聚在一起喝酒、大笑、互助分享，远离了现代社会的浮躁。
---
### [02:52:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10337s) 独处荒野的治愈力与社会分工的辩证法
围绕西伯利亚猎人的生活状态，Forrest 和 Joe 深入探讨了现代人的精神内耗与心理疾病问题。Forrest 认为，独自置身于大自然中能够彻底消除外界的纷扰噪音。当人独处自然时，感官必须全神贯注于眼下的生存环境与具体任务，根本没有多余的时间沉湎于内在的胡思乱想，而抑郁和焦虑往往正滋生于这种过度内耗中。Joe 补充道，这种自给自足的生活彻底消灭了“社会攀比”：大家干着完全一样的营生，谁捕到的鱼更大根本没人计较，人与人之间只剩下协作与生存本身。
然而，两人也客观地指出人类社会结构的必然两面性。正如之前讨论的得克萨斯州“红与蓝”政治生态一样，一个健康的文明必须同时拥有硬币的两面：既需要纯粹依附土地的生存者与务实行动者，也必须有一群身居室内、过度思虑的创新者和科学家。正如 Joe 戏谑指出的，西伯利亚猎人之所以能高效穿梭于极地冰原，是因为他们骑着现代工业制造的雪地摩托——而在当地严酷的生存闭环中，绝对没有任何一个猎人能凭空发明出雪地摩托。社会的延续需要这两极的平衡与协作。
### [02:53:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10435s) 简易铁笼与鳄鱼的“死亡翻滚”惊魂
对谈接近尾声时，乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）看着屏幕上福雷斯特·加兰特（Forrest Galante）以往节目的惊险片段，忍不住惊呼出声。画面中，福雷斯特正置身于一个挂在水中的笼子里，而笼子外围竟然绑满了鲜肉，引得周围的大型鳄鱼疯狂围攻。罗根目瞪口呆地吐槽道：“老兄，你之前可没告诉我你在铁笼外面绑了一整圈肉啊！”加兰特笑着自嘲承认自己当时确实太鲁莽，并透露那个笼子甚至不是专业机构打造的，而是他们自己动手焊制的，直言“我又不是什么工程师”。
罗根看着画面中单薄脆弱的笼子连连摇头，直呼那玩意儿看起来“弱不禁风”，加兰特简直就像是吊在一根悬丝上命悬一线。加兰特坦承，吊着笼子的钢缆根本就是从当地村庄里随便找来凑合用的，心里只能祈祷它能撑得住；拍摄前他们唯一的测试，仅仅是在空笼子里装了几块石头试吊了一下。看着视频里巨大的鳄鱼在笼边不断上演凶猛的“死亡翻滚”（death rolls），罗根严肃地警告这主意简直糟透了，并当面叮嘱他绝不要再去干这种蠢事。加兰特则笑着向罗根保证自己再也不会做了，但他同时也感慨，正是通过这种冒着生命危险拍下来的生动画面，观众们才能真正以最直观的方式去认识和了解鳄鱼。
- **自制防鲨/防鳄笼**：该铁笼为团队临时自制，加兰特自嘲自己毫无工程学背景，安全性全凭运气。
- **简陋的承重测试**：悬挂笼子的钢缆仅来自当地村落，实测方法仅为在空笼中塞入石块配重。
- **鳄鱼习性展示**：肉块引诱鳄鱼近距离发动撕咬，记录到了极具杀伤力的“死亡翻滚”动作。
### [02:54:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10486s) 《鲨鱼周》专题片与节目尾声
平复心情后，罗根请加兰特向观众介绍近期的新作品以及关注他的渠道。加兰特兴奋地提到探索频道（Discovery Channel）标志性的年度盛事“鲨鱼周”（Shark Week），他参与的新专题片《异形鲨鱼：狂野美洲》（*Alien Sharks: Untamed America*）即将播出。该特辑通过寻找北美水域中最奇特、最疯狂的怪异鲨鱼物种，来庆祝美国的诞辰。
罗根好奇地询问《鲨鱼周》到底开播了多久，加兰特表示这项传统自20世纪80年代启动以来已有39年历史，正好和他的年龄一模一样，简直贯穿了他的整个人生，已然成为电视界的一大常青机构。此外，加兰特强调自己目前大部分内容都在个人 YouTube 频道上持续更新，并感谢罗根平时的关注与留言互动。罗根由衷地赞许加兰特在野生动物科普领域所付出的努力与冒险精神，两人在轻松温暖的互相致谢中向观众道别，圆满结束了本期播客。
## Notable quotes
> [38:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2330s) 保持怪异，并且保持被包围（Keep Austin weird and surrounded） — Joe Rogan
> [38:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=2330s) 不要试图把整个得州变成纯蓝州，那样你也会毁了自己。生态平衡极其重要：你不能消灭所有的掠食者，否则鹿群泛滥横冲直撞；你也不能杀光所有的鹿，否则掠食者将无以为食。人类社会同样需要制衡。奥斯汀正是这种绝佳的平衡——一个自由派城市，被一群拥有枪支和老虎的硬核共和党人环绕，而这一切却运转得极为融洽。 — Joe Rogan
> [59:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=3587s) 这大概是我最后一年干这种蠢事了，现在的拍摄要求越来越离谱了。 — Forrest Galante
> [01:08:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4112s) not the size of the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog — Forrest Galante
> [01:15:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=4552s) I call bullshit on this — Joe Rogan
> [01:31:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5483s) 别再给我打飞机了，放我回大海，你这个疯婆子！ — Joe Rogan
> [01:35:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=5713s) 你觉得自己很聪明？那写本书看看啊？既然聪明，你怎么不盖栋房子？你的火箭和手机在哪里？ — Joe Rogan
> [01:44:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=6257s) 又到了一年一度的猎食季。 — Forrest Galante
> [02:05:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=7555s) Well, he's dead now, so there's that. — Bill Gates
> [02:14:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8069s) provided them with experiences — Eric Weinstein
> [02:22:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=8523s) 这太像人类了——‘我们曾是同一拨人，但现在我看你不顺眼，这边是我的地盘，那边是我的地盘，我们非把对方弄死不可。’ — Joe Rogan
> [02:53:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM&t=10435s) 老兄，你之前可没告诉我你在铁笼外面绑了一整圈肉啊！ — Joe Rogan
## Mentioned
Joe Rogan, Forrest Galante, Young Jamie, Discovery Channel, Shark Week, Alien Sharks: Untamed America, Run Nation (RNC), Dr. Mark Gordon, David Tua, John Ruiz, Mark Hunt, South Park, Duncan Trussell, Joe Rogan Questions Everything, Tom Segura, Your Mom's House, Gigantopithecus, Vantara, Anant Ambani, Justin Bieber, The Explorers Club, Champawat Tiger, Jim Corbett, Steve Rinella, Mammal Watching, Saola, Bill Robichaud, Paul Rosolie, New Wave, Gordon Ryan, B-Team, Craig Jones, Xande Ribeiro, Gracie Barra, 10th Planet Jiu-Jitsu, Comedy Mothership, The Creek and the Cave, Sunset Room, The Vulcan, Amal Easton, Perplexity AI, The View, Joy Behar, Henry I, Henry III, Haakon IV, Tower of London, CIA, MK-Ultra, Louis Jolyon West, Operation Midnight Climax, H.P. Albarelli Jr., A Terrible Mistake, Fort Detrick, Sandoz, Frank Olson, Church Committee, Jeffrey Epstein, Plum Island Animal Disease Center, Evan Hafer, Black Rifle Coffee, Bert Kreischer, Jim Miller, Operation Acoustic Kitty, Robert Wallace, DARPA, UC Berkeley, Navy Marine Mammal Program, Hvaldimir, John C. Lilly, Margaret Howe Lovatt, Blackfish, SeaWorld, Marineland, Phil Demers, Colossal Biosciences, San Diego Zoo, Beth Shapiro, George Church, Ben Lamm, Adam Greentree, Fred Bear, Aaron Snyder, Bill Gates, Melinda Gates, Bill & Melinda Gates Foundation, James Cameron, The Game Changers, Les Wexner, Victoria's Secret, Mossad, Eric Weinstein, Karl Ammann, Relentless Enemies, David Choe, Mikhail Vasin, Alexander Shcherbakov, David Attenborough, Chimp Empire, Timothy Treadwell, Werner Herzog, Grizzly Man, Happy People: A Year in the Taiga
## Video description
Forrest Galante is an international wildlife adventurer, conservationist, and author. His new special, "Alien Sharks: Untamed America," premieres July 29 as part of Discovery Channel's annual "Shark Week" programming block.
https://www.discovery.com/shark-week
https://www.patreon.com/cw/ForrestGalante
https://www.youtube.com/@ForrestGalante
https://www.forrestgalante.com
Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan.
Try ZipRecruiter FOR FREE at https://ziprecruiter.com/rogan
[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=EvnLN8WETlM)
Source quotes
[38:50] Joe Rogan: 保持怪异，并且保持被包围（Keep Austin weird and surrounded）
[38:50] Joe Rogan: 不要试图把整个得州变成纯蓝州，那样你也会毁了自己。生态平衡极其重要：你不能消灭所有的掠食者，否则鹿群泛滥横冲直撞；你也不能杀光所有的鹿，否则掠食者将无以为食。人类社会同样需要制衡。奥斯汀正是这种绝佳的平衡——一个自由派城市，被一群拥有枪支和老虎的硬核共和党人环绕，而这一切却运转得极为融洽。
[59:47] Forrest Galante: 这大概是我最后一年干这种蠢事了，现在的拍摄要求越来越离谱了。
[68:32] Forrest Galante: not the size of the dog in the fight, but the fight in the dog
[75:52] Joe Rogan: I call bullshit on this
[91:23] Joe Rogan: 别再给我打飞机了，放我回大海，你这个疯婆子！
[95:13] Joe Rogan: 你觉得自己很聪明？那写本书看看啊？既然聪明，你怎么不盖栋房子？你的火箭和手机在哪里？
[104:17] Forrest Galante: 又到了一年一度的猎食季。
[125:55] Bill Gates: Well, he's dead now, so there's that.
[134:29] Eric Weinstein: provided them with experiences
[142:03] Joe Rogan: 这太像人类了——‘我们曾是同一拨人，但现在我看你不顺眼，这边是我的地盘，那边是我的地盘，我们非把对方弄死不可。’
[173:55] Joe Rogan: 老兄，你之前可没告诉我你在铁笼外面绑了一整圈肉啊！
Source quotes
[1:54] Forrest Galante: It's the same as if you or I went to India or Africa. It's like we kind of communicate. We don't eat the same food. We look different. And yet to us an orca is an orca...
[30:43] It feels like the legends are getting fewer and further between... like almost over generational time, it's disappearing.
[46:07] The world is a bunch of different things. It's not just Santa Monica... It's important because otherwise we live in a bubble.
[61:42] It just shows you how predatory polar bears are and how they don't give a fuck. It's just trying to get at that guy.
[81:44] There's a cockroach under your carpet here listening to us somewhere right now.
[92:22] Someday in the future we're going to look back at that the way people today look back at slavery. We're going to say these are intelligent creatures that just don't have the ability to manipulate their environment like we do.
[104:17] Imagine you have a 10 mm semi-automatic pistol and you have to rack the slide... The bear's coming. You're already dead.
[117:00] Joe Rogan: this is why socialism is never going to work—if people aren't rewarded, they aren't going to work hard enough to do anything really spectacular.
[122:03] They've taken such a rich and important part of Africa—one of the most abundant freshwater fisheries in the world—and destroyed it because they're 'helping' by handing out mosquito nets. Now you have people with malaria *and* hunger.
[143:35] Joe Rogan: They just look exaggerated to the point where they look fake. They look like Hulk lions.
[158:52] There is a weird arrogance that we have in 2026 because we have uncovered so much... an arrogant assumption that we have an accurate audit of all the animals on the planet.
[161:51] All three of us can't be funded to save that species... so now we're all fighting each other to save the thing that we all care about because the resource pool is so small.
[170:22] Joe Rogan: When you're alone in nature, you have to think about your surroundings and what you're doing. And you don't have time to sit and manifest on these things that create depression and anxiety.
Original transcript
[0:01] Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out.
[0:03] >> The Joe Rogan Experience.
[0:06] >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY
[0:08] NIGHT. All day,
[0:12] >> my friend. Joe, it's good to see you,
[0:14] man. Bro, it's good to see you. So, I've
[0:17] been sending you stuff cuz like we've
[0:18] been I knew that you were coming on and
[0:20] I sent you that one uh that video of the
[0:22] guy who got a trail cam photo of a black
[0:25] panther. Yep.
[0:26] >> So, is that just a melanistic
[0:29] mountain lion? Like, what is that?
[0:31] >> It's a great question. There's never
[0:32] been a melanistic mountain lion.
[0:34] Nobody's ever seen one ever. Never hit
[0:36] one with a car, never born one
[0:38] captivity, nothing.
[0:39] >> Wa.
[0:39] >> So, mountain lions by definition, pumas,
[0:42] you know, whatever you want to call
[0:43] them. Um, there's never been a black one
[0:46] ever. But every year, I mean, I got a
[0:48] buddy in Florida who swears blind that
[0:50] he's seen a black mountain lion in his
[0:52] backyard. And yet that photo that you
[0:55] sent me,
[0:57] that photo circulates like once every 3
[0:59] years. It's [ __ ] It's a real photo,
[1:01] but it's a trail cam photo. Oh, it
[1:03] wasn't this one, but
[1:04] >> Well, that's I think that's the first
[1:06] one. And then there's another one with
[1:07] the cat gets like right up to the lens.
[1:10] Yeah, that one.
[1:11] >> So, that photo is a real I want to say
[1:14] jaguar. It's hard to tell, but either
[1:16] jaguar or black leopard. both of which
[1:18] are do become melanistic.
[1:20] >> But there's and you can tell that cuz
[1:21] you can see the spots barely like the
[1:23] rosettes.
[1:24] >> So all these melanistic cats like like
[1:26] jags and leopards and things that do get
[1:28] melanistic, they still have those
[1:30] rosettes under the black coat. Yeah. So
[1:32] not a mountain line.
[1:33] >> Wow. Too bad.
[1:34] >> I know. It's such a bummer. One day if
[1:36] somebody finds one, that'll be like a
[1:38] huge thing scientifically.
[1:39] >> Funny that we want it to be different
[1:42] because just a mountain line itself is
[1:44] amazing. I mean, if they were all black
[1:46] and there was like a tan mountain line,
[1:47] be like, "Somebody saw a tan mountain
[1:49] line."
[1:49] >> 100%. It's like whatever is different
[1:51] and rare is what people just are like, I
[1:53] want that one thing.
[1:54] >> I've always said that about Bigfoot.
[1:55] >> Yeah. Bigfoot is kind of interesting,
[1:58] but not as interesting as an orca.
[2:00] >> 100%. Like, we have gorillas that are
[2:02] cooler than Bigfoots.
[2:04] >> Well, orcas in in particular because
[2:06] they have languages that we can't
[2:07] decipher. Languages, specialized diets,
[2:10] some kind. Do you know I'm sure you know
[2:12] us can't even talk to each other, right?
[2:13] >> Yeah. It's unbelievable. Like it's the
[2:15] same as if you or I went to India or
[2:17] Africa. It's like we kind of
[2:18] communicate. We don't eat the same food.
[2:20] We look different. And yet to us an orca
[2:22] is an orca,
[2:23] >> right?
[2:23] >> Yeah.
[2:24] >> And super smart and huge brains and
[2:26] don't kill people for some strange
[2:28] reason except when they're in captivity.
[2:30] >> That's right. Yeah. Which is so crazy. I
[2:32] did a thing in Baja Mexico maybe 3 years
[2:35] ago where we were just cruising on this
[2:37] little ponga, this little fishing boat,
[2:38] and we saw these orcas go by. And now
[2:41] people seem to be doing it a lot, but at
[2:42] the time it was like nobody had really
[2:44] just tried this. And this was a
[2:46] transient population, which means they
[2:48] primarily eat uh seals and sea lions,
[2:50] not the stingray eaters. And so we're
[2:52] like, "Fuck it. Let's just go." And we
[2:54] like ran the boat up ahead and jumped
[2:55] in. And the orcas came up and the bull
[2:58] never came out. So you know, the bull
[2:59] has a huge fin like he's the biggest
[3:01] like the the dominant protector of the
[3:04] pod. But the cows and their babies came
[3:06] up and the boat like drifted away and me
[3:08] and my buddy Mike and they just circled
[3:10] us like just looking at us with their
[3:11] big eyeballs.
[3:12] >> Wow.
[3:13] >> And it was me to you from orcas and they
[3:15] they did like two two circles around us
[3:17] like what are these things? Then we're
[3:18] just like me boring and kept swimming.
[3:20] >> They they must know, right? If they're
[3:23] that intelligent, they have language and
[3:25] they communicate. They must know that
[3:27] what what a person is, right?
[3:29] >> I think this
[3:30] >> Oh, dude. I saw the guy that filmed
[3:31] this. This is so crazy. Orca headbutts a
[3:33] sunfish so hard it explodes.
[3:36] >> Boom. Turns into pieces. So, this is a
[3:38] newly documented behavior. Just in the
[3:40] last maybe 6 months, they've found that
[3:43] orcas will literally explode fish from
[3:45] impact, whether it's a game or what, but
[3:48] they're they're finding that this is not
[3:50] the first time this is done. They're
[3:51] doing this. They're starting to just
[3:53] explode these fish on impact just
[3:56] because.
[3:57] >> How are they doing that? Like, how how
[3:59] fast are they going? I do not know the
[4:01] answer to that, but it's impressive.
[4:03] >> I would have never imagined that that
[4:05] would actually be possible, right? Like
[4:06] how fast can you
[4:07] >> I'm trying to like What does the
[4:08] starfish look like flat like a stingray
[4:10] or
[4:10] >> a sunfish? It's like a mola mola. Those
[4:12] ocean sunfish with the big gooy huge
[4:15] huge 600 lb. They get huge. I It's
[4:18] >> How do they literally turn to dust?
[4:20] >> Dude, I think I think those are the orca
[4:22] equivalents of like a redneck that wants
[4:24] to hit a turtle on the road and they're
[4:25] just like, "We're bored. Let's explode
[4:26] it."
[4:27] >> Or those guys that do that. Have you
[4:28] seen that game? Well, it's not game, but
[4:31] it's I guess whatever it is, an activity
[4:33] where these guys just run at each other
[4:35] full blast,
[4:36] >> dude. RNC, Run Nation.
[4:38] >> I [ __ ] love that. It's one of my
[4:39] favorite things. I'm such a huge fan.
[4:41] >> Don't you love that?
[4:42] >> I love it, dude. Cuz I play rugby. So,
[4:44] it's rugby boys that are doing it,
[4:46] right? It's like an Oklahoma drill
[4:47] except for rugby guys. And that's a
[4:49] drill that when I was playing rugby, we
[4:50] used to do all the time.
[4:51] >> Just run at each other.
[4:52] >> You just run. It's my fa run nation,
[4:55] RNC. It's my favorite thing. I watch
[4:57] every video. Look at these guys.
[4:59] >> I would have never get They both just
[5:00] went unconscious.
[5:02] >> Look at that. They both went Well, that
[5:03] guy's
[5:04] >> That guy's fine.
[5:06] >> But I've seen it where they both get
[5:07] unconscious.
[5:08] >> I want to bring these guys to the US and
[5:10] see how they stack up against like NFL
[5:12] linebackers.
[5:13] >> Oh, Jesus Christ. They both headbutted
[5:14] each other, dude.
[5:15] >> Dude, you love fight sports. What are
[5:16] you talking about?
[5:17] >> This is not a fight sport. This is just
[5:19] [ __ ]
[5:20] >> I'm such a fan.
[5:21] >> Oh, that's so silly.
[5:24] >> Oh, wow.
[5:24] >> I don't want to do it to be clear. that
[5:26] you like that. I know too much about
[5:28] brain damage and you should too if you
[5:30] like rugby.
[5:30] >> I've had too much brain damage to know
[5:32] too much about brain. No, I'm just
[5:33] kidding. But um
[5:34] >> how long did you play rugby for?
[5:36] >> Well, I grew up in Zimbabwe and so like
[5:38] Southern Africa rugby is life, right? So
[5:40] it's like probably deep south football
[5:42] kind of culture. So I still play,
[5:45] believe it or not. Um except now I play
[5:47] very intermittently cuz one game puts me
[5:49] out for weeks at a time. Have
[5:50] >> you ever got your brain examined?
[5:52] >> Uh no I have not. I've only had one
[5:55] concussion in my life, so I think I'm
[5:56] okay.
[5:57] >> Oh, that's silly. Cuz you you guarantee
[5:59] you'd have subconcussive trauma.
[6:02] >> What is subconcussive trauma?
[6:03] >> Well, you where you don't go
[6:04] unconscious, but you get rattled and
[6:06] then you have some brain damage.
[6:08] >> You're probably right.
[6:09] >> Yeah, soccer players get it.
[6:11] >> Really?
[6:11] >> Yeah, soccer players. Yeah.
[6:13] >> Yeah.
[6:14] >> Chronic traumatic encphylopathy.
[6:16] >> Yeah, that's Soccer players get it.
[6:18] >> I did not know that.
[6:18] >> From hitting the ball.
[6:19] >> So, is that And you know a lot about
[6:21] UFC. Is that brain trauma worse than UFC
[6:24] type trauma?
[6:25] >> Well, it's all brain trauma and it's
[6:27] dependent upon many factors. It's
[6:29] dependent upon how many times you've
[6:31] been hit and also there's a gene
[6:34] variation.
[6:35] >> Uh it's a APOE4. Is that what it is?
[6:38] >> I think so. Yeah.
[6:39] >> Um if you have this one particular gene,
[6:45] uh it makes you more susceptible to CTE
[6:47] for some reason.
[6:48] >> Interesting. Yeah. So, like cuz a brain
[6:50] a concussion is when your brain sort of
[6:52] impacts against your skull. Is that
[6:53] right?
[6:53] >> There's that. And I mean I think it's
[6:56] also uh it's not just that. It's like if
[6:58] you get hit in the neck, you can get a
[6:59] concussion. Also, yeah. Also, a lot of
[7:02] people don't realize you can get a
[7:03] concussion from getting hit in the body.
[7:05] >> Really? How does that work?
[7:07] >> You get rattled. Yeah. Also, uh another
[7:10] group of people that seem to get CTE are
[7:13] people who ride jet skis.
[7:15] >> That's wild. How does that work? Well,
[7:18] my friend Mark Gordon, he's a doctor who
[7:20] specializes in traumatic brain injuries
[7:22] and treating um football players,
[7:25] soldiers, uh and he's treated some
[7:27] fighters as well. Um he said that any
[7:30] repeated stress, any banging, anything
[7:32] like that. Head banging. Like if you're
[7:34] [ __ ]
[7:35] >> headbanging Yeah. Like you're probably
[7:37] going to get brain damage.
[7:38] >> No way.
[7:39] >> Yeah. Legitimate brain damage. Like I
[7:41] can't remember what I was doing 5
[7:43] seconds ago. Where's my keys? I forget
[7:46] what I'm talking about. Mids sentence.
[7:47] >> Dude, you're scaring me here.
[7:48] >> These are all things I enjoy doing.
[7:50] >> Well, I'm sure I enjoy running straight
[7:52] at people. Full blast. Yeah. I just uh
[7:55] Look, those guys are animals. They're
[7:57] tough guys. No doubt about it.
[7:59] >> And those Pacific Islanders like cuz
[8:00] those are the guys that are doing it
[8:01] primarily, right? Like they play rugby
[8:03] league and stuff. They're built
[8:04] different, man. Like they're so hard.
[8:07] It's insane.
[8:07] >> Do you remember David Tua?
[8:09] >> No, I'm not. David Tua was a heavyweight
[8:11] boxer back in the day who uh was like
[8:14] one of the most ferocious guys that ever
[8:15] fought in boxing and it just just built
[8:18] like like a you're prototypical
[8:22] island warrior guy just that's David
[8:25] >> T just a tank.
[8:27] >> You don't want to run it at that guy.
[8:28] I'm telling you what.
[8:29] >> Yeah. I mean, uh, just a monster. He
[8:33] would knock people out
[8:34] >> in He knocked out John Ruiz like
[8:36] famously in the first round and like
[8:38] something like 30 seconds or something
[8:39] like that. It was crazy.
[8:40] >> Different breed, man.
[8:41] >> Crazy left hook.
[8:42] >> Yeah, that that kind of guy. I mean,
[8:44] we've had a bunch of Mark Hunt, who's a
[8:46] famous kickboxer, was another guy built
[8:48] like that. Yeah. Just just wide as a
[8:50] [ __ ] barn.
[8:51] >> There's like no waste. It's just like a
[8:53] brick solid rock.
[8:55] >> I again playing rugby. I played rugby
[8:57] against guys like that and it was the
[8:58] worst. Well, those are the dudes that
[8:59] have the balls to get in a little tiny
[9:01] boat and make it across the [ __ ]
[9:02] ocean,
[9:03] >> you know, and then kick your ass.
[9:04] >> That's what it is really. I mean, you
[9:06] think about it, like only the super
[9:08] robust survived,
[9:10] >> right?
[9:10] >> So, it's like nature just weeding out
[9:12] any possible weakness. Only the
[9:14] strongest human beings made it.
[9:16] >> Absolute natural selection.
[9:18] >> Similar to the African-Americans that we
[9:20] have in North America, like those are
[9:21] the strongest, best guys that came over
[9:23] here, right? And that's why they're all
[9:25] the most incredible athletes. Yeah, I
[9:27] don't know about all, but you know what
[9:28] I mean.
[9:28] >> Yeah, I know what you're saying.
[9:29] >> There's I mean it's for and also like
[9:31] when you look at like guys from Iceland,
[9:33] strong men. So how many strong men are
[9:35] from Iceland? Well, how many [ __ ]
[9:36] Vikings are from Iceland? Like let's
[9:40] weird when you think about it that like
[9:42] nature finds its way.
[9:44] >> It's the same thing. It's like we think
[9:45] we're so different and above like
[9:47] animals and stuff. It's natural
[9:49] selection. We just bring the biggest,
[9:50] the best, and the strongest into some
[9:52] area. Whether that's Vikings colonizing
[9:54] Iceland or or the Samoans on their
[9:56] islands or whatever it happens to be and
[9:58] you're just like, "Well, here's a
[9:59] superior population cuz we've all the
[10:01] biggest, best, and strongest have made
[10:03] it and all of the weakest have died
[10:04] off."
[10:04] >> Isn't that weird? Like you as a guy who
[10:06] studies wildlife biology, isn't it weird
[10:08] that we want to think of ourselves as
[10:10] being a different thing? Like we are
[10:13] clearly not.
[10:14] >> We're not we're not even at the top.
[10:16] That's the thing that people never
[10:17] understand. Intellectually, we are
[10:18] obviously look at what we've built. But
[10:20] like we're not even we don't even sit at
[10:21] the top of the food chain.
[10:23] >> Well, we kind of do because we kill
[10:25] everything else if we want to.
[10:27] >> Well, because Yeah. Well, not even our
[10:29] brains really. It's other people's
[10:31] brains that invented guns. It's like it
[10:33] has nothing to do with you and me. True.
[10:35] That's such interesting is like our
[10:36] brains are our evolutionary advantage.
[10:40] It transfers over to people that don't
[10:43] have good genetics. Yeah.
[10:44] >> Right. Like cuz you could be built like
[10:46] a bag of [ __ ] Like a literal bag of
[10:48] [ __ ] And you can kill a grizzly bear
[10:50] with a rifle.
[10:50] >> That's right.
[10:51] >> Kind of nuts, right? It's crazy.
[10:53] >> You can just be sitting there on a
[10:55] ridge. Yep. Like with a scope and boom
[10:57] and you kill a 1200 lb Kodiak brown bear
[11:00] >> cuz all of our biological energy goes
[11:02] into this thing instead of being
[11:04] physically big or intimidating or any of
[11:06] those other things.
[11:07] >> We can transfer what we figured out onto
[11:10] other people, which is no other animals
[11:13] ever figured out how to do that.
[11:14] >> Nope. Isn't that crazy?
[11:15] >> Wild. Yeah,
[11:16] >> it's really wild. Y
[11:17] >> it's when you think about it, it's like
[11:19] what a what a if you were studying us,
[11:21] if you were coming from another planet
[11:23] and you were studying us, you'd be like,
[11:24] "Wow, this one animal is [ __ ] weird,
[11:26] man. This one this one's doing something
[11:28] different."
[11:29] >> Yeah, absolutely.
[11:30] >> But it they would still look at us and
[11:32] go, "Oh, well, they're definitely
[11:33] animals." Like, look at them.
[11:35] >> Oh, yeah. If you looked at the Earth
[11:36] from an Earth shot, you'd look at what
[11:38] we've done and be like, "This is the top
[11:40] animal, but they're parasitic and
[11:42] colonizing the whole planet and changing
[11:44] things and manipulating things, whereas
[11:46] all the other animals are just getting
[11:48] by."
[11:48] >> Yeah. If we found out that there were
[11:51] were actual visiting aliens, that there
[11:55] there was actual intelligent life from
[11:58] somewhere else visiting us, I think
[12:00] there a lot of us would probably be
[12:01] like, "Why didn't you help?"
[12:03] >> Yeah. Why didn't Why didn't you come
[12:05] along and say, "Hey, cut the shit."
[12:07] >> It reminds me of the I don't know. Did
[12:09] you watch Do you watch South Park ever?
[12:11] >> Yes.
[12:11] >> There was an old South Park episode
[12:12] where Earth was like a reality show and
[12:15] it's so like let's see who's getting
[12:16] along this week. The zebras are fighting
[12:18] with the giraffes and the people are
[12:19] doing this. And it's like it's like
[12:21] we're just like a reality show for the
[12:22] universe where you just put a bunch of
[12:24] species. We're like a big big brother
[12:26] situation.
[12:27] >> Well, we are kind of that for us.
[12:28] >> Oh, totally.
[12:29] >> We are That's what a reality show is.
[12:31] The reality show for us is the world.
[12:34] >> Yeah.
[12:34] >> You know, Lindsey Graham, did he die in
[12:36] a rocket accident or did he die? Was he
[12:38] poisoned by Russia? Let's tune in to
[12:41] Twitter and find out. You know what I
[12:42] mean?
[12:43] >> Exactly, man. It's hilarious.
[12:45] >> We are We are locked in on whatever the
[12:48] [ __ ] is happening all over the world all
[12:49] at once. And that's one of the weird
[12:51] things about social media now is that
[12:53] we're constantly being inundated with
[12:56] new things to occupy our attention,
[12:58] >> you know?
[12:58] >> Yeah. We have no attention span to watch
[13:00] anything for more than 5 seconds.
[13:02] >> But yet at the same time, this is the
[13:04] rise of podcasts.
[13:05] >> Yeah.
[13:06] >> Which are long form,
[13:07] >> right? So it's clear that that's not
[13:09] really the case with everybody. There's
[13:11] enough people that are interested in
[13:12] actual fascinating things and have an
[13:14] attention span. It's just like we're all
[13:16] susceptible to the the brain rot that
[13:18] comes with just scrolling.
[13:20] >> It's so hard not like I've tried to make
[13:22] conscious decisions because you know,
[13:23] you can imagine what my Instagram feed
[13:25] looks like, right? It's animal after
[13:26] animal. Half of it's AI now. whatever.
[13:29] And I still try and make a conscious
[13:31] decision to not look at it. And I find
[13:33] myself just reaching for my phone and
[13:35] doing this. It's just it we're wired
[13:37] into it now.
[13:39] >> That dopamine hits crazy.
[13:40] >> And it's not even really rewarding,
[13:42] which is really terrifying to me because
[13:44] it's not something that's like really
[13:46] feels great.
[13:47] >> And you barely retain the information.
[13:49] Like even if you watch an educational
[13:50] one where you're like, "Wow, that was
[13:51] amazing." You barely retain that
[13:53] information because it's such a quick
[13:55] thing until you're on to the next one.
[13:56] At least for me.
[13:57] >> Yeah. Yeah, there's a little bit of that
[13:58] in there for sure, but I think I've
[14:00] gotten a pretty good algorithm lately.
[14:03] So lately, for whatever reason, my
[14:05] algorithm has been really excellent.
[14:07] It's really dialed in to where I'm only
[14:08] getting like really fascinating things
[14:10] the last couple of weeks.
[14:11] >> Yeah.
[14:12] >> Oh, it's been great.
[14:13] >> That's way better.
[14:13] >> And then every now and then some
[14:15] [ __ ] [ __ ] comes on. I just skip
[14:17] through it real quick and I'm like, got
[14:18] to keep this algorithm going good.
[14:19] >> Or you text me a Bigfoot AI thing.
[14:22] >> Bigfoot buds are so silly.
[14:24] >> They're so bad.
[14:25] >> They're so silly. You actually texted me
[14:26] the Bigfoot one.
[14:27] >> Well, it was the same guy you you said
[14:29] the same guy had texted you back. I was
[14:31] like, I don't think so, dude. He's like,
[14:33] "This guy raised a baby Bigfoot in
[14:35] secrecy for 10 years."
[14:36] >> So bad.
[14:37] >> It's so bad.
[14:38] >> It's so obvious. It's like a shitty AI
[14:40] photograph of like like a blurry
[14:42] Polaroid photograph.
[14:44] >> And then you read the comments and
[14:45] there's like 400 people going like, "Oh
[14:47] my god, I can't believe this happened."
[14:48] And you're like, "Come on."
[14:50] >> Oh, dude. Duncan and I um back in the
[14:52] day like in 2012 or 11, whatever it was
[14:55] when I did that sci-fi show, Joe Rogan
[14:57] Questions Everything, we went and hung
[14:59] out with Bigfoot people, we we actually
[15:01] went Bigfoot hunting. No way.
[15:03] >> Oh, yeah. We hung Yeah. We were with
[15:04] them for a couple days in the woods, the
[15:06] Pacific Northwest.
[15:08] >> It's kind of sad.
[15:09] >> Yeah,
[15:09] >> cuz the way I describe it, I would said,
[15:11] "Here's what you don't find when you go
[15:12] looking for Bigfoot."
[15:14] >> Black people. You're more likely to find
[15:16] Bigfoot than you are black people
[15:17] looking for Bigfoot.
[15:18] >> It's just such a crazy white guy.
[15:20] [ __ ] white guys out in the woods
[15:23] staring at shadows. It's
[15:25] >> like making something out of nothing,
[15:27] right? Like look at that leaf. It must
[15:28] have been here.
[15:29] >> It's just unfuckable guys. It's really
[15:32] what it is. It's it's unfortunately
[15:35] that's really what it is. It's not that
[15:37] there's not something to the story
[15:39] because I think there is something to
[15:41] the story. I think it's an old story.
[15:44] >> Well, it dates all the way back to
[15:45] Native Americans, right?
[15:46] >> Well, not just that. There's how many we
[15:48] we looked this up before like how many
[15:50] different names there are in I think it
[15:52] was more than 50 different Native
[15:54] American seen this.
[15:56] >> Yeah, that looks great.
[15:58] >> This guy was dead, baby. By the way, you
[16:01] imagine sitting that close to that
[16:03] thing, how bad that would smell.
[16:04] >> Yeah, it's revolting.
[16:06] >> I mean, that thing's been dead for who
[16:07] knows how long and this guy's just
[16:08] hanging out. Yeah, I take a picture. How
[16:11] do I look?
[16:11] >> Side fun fact, this guy was on your
[16:13] mom's house like 12 years ago.
[16:15] >> Was he?
[16:15] >> Yeah. For what?
[16:16] >> Is he like a fun guy on Instagram as a
[16:18] dog trainer?
[16:19] >> That's hilarious.
[16:20] >> They Tom found his videos a long time
[16:21] ago and they brought him in to do a
[16:23] podcast with him and I just told public
[16:25] I know who this guy is.
[16:26] >> No way.
[16:27] >> I don't know why I got into Bigfoot.
[16:29] >> He has Bigfoot's body. So two of them.
[16:32] >> How bad that looks.
[16:33] >> It's so bad, dude.
[16:35] >> Oh my god. Look at these.
[16:36] >> Look at that.
[16:37] >> Oh, look at the smile.
[16:41] I mean, he's he could be just a full on
[16:44] satirical troll, which
[16:45] >> Oh, HE'S SAWING INTO IT.
[16:48] >> LOOK AT THIS. It's a cake. It's going to
[16:50] be like
[16:50] >> It's a cake.
[16:51] >> Oh my god. He sawed into it. Open it up,
[16:53] Tom. Oh, he found a foot.
[16:55] >> Oh yeah. Very real looking.
[16:57] >> Very real looking foot.
[16:59] >> Also, if you can't trust a guy in
[17:00] overalls with no shirt, who can you
[17:02] trust?
[17:02] >> By the way, guy's in great shape for his
[17:04] age.
[17:04] >> He is.
[17:04] >> Looks looks ripped.
[17:06] >> He's out there lifting up fake big foots
[17:08] all day.
[17:08] >> Things are heavy.
[17:11] I think there was I mean obviously we
[17:14] know that Gigantoopycus was real but we
[17:16] were reading about this the other day
[17:18] that it seems like Gigantopithecus
[17:20] wasn't bipedal and that there was some
[17:23] dispute as to whether or not it was
[17:24] bipeedal but apparently there are some
[17:26] biologists that are saying no it was
[17:29] most likely walked around like an
[17:30] orangutan huge
[17:32] >> just just oh wow
[17:33] >> just a huge orangutan looking thing
[17:35] >> huh no I I've heard of it I didn't know
[17:36] that it wasn't bipedal though that's
[17:38] fascinating
[17:38] >> I think it's under dispute. I think I
[17:40] think it's been disputed. That's
[17:42] interesting. It's hard to say. They
[17:43] don't have a lot of bones, right? They
[17:45] only have like a few jawbones and some
[17:47] stuff like
[17:47] >> of them. Yeah, dude. I learned something
[17:50] pretty interesting this last week. So, I
[17:51] uh I just got back from India. Literally
[17:53] flew in here from India and um we were
[17:55] doing some elephant rescues uh with
[17:57] Ventara, that big uh Indian wildlife
[17:59] rescue place. Um this elephant got hit
[18:03] by a car that we went and rescued. So,
[18:05] its leg was all jacked up. Speaking of
[18:07] non-bipedal things. So, you would think
[18:09] just the elephant would walk with a
[18:10] limp. Well, having that trunk, it's
[18:13] incredible. They use that trunk as a
[18:15] limb. So, I was watching this elephant
[18:17] walk. I wish I had photos or video to
[18:19] show you, but I was watching this
[18:20] elephant walk and it wouldn't put weight
[18:22] on its leg that was hit by the car. So,
[18:24] it would walk with three legs and its
[18:26] trunk as its fourth appendage.
[18:28] >> Oh, wow.
[18:28] >> Which is an amazing thing to see cuz you
[18:30] think of the size of an elephant's
[18:31] cranium and its head and the weight. And
[18:33] in order to move that distribution off
[18:34] of that broken leg, it was using this
[18:37] trunk as a limb. It was just, it was
[18:39] incredible. It was really sad, but it
[18:40] was incredible thing to see the way they
[18:42] sort of figured out how to maneuver
[18:44] using that fifth appendage. This episode
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[19:41] Recruiter. Does the elephant allow
[19:43] people to set its leg?
[19:45] >> So in in India,
[19:48] >> was it broken?
[19:49] >> I don't know. It went So we went to
[19:51] basically so I work at this place called
[19:52] Ventara, which is the world's largest
[19:54] wildlife rescue and rehab center. It's
[19:56] unreal, dude. It would blow your mind. I
[19:58] mean like on a whole another level. all
[20:00] privately funded by Anad Ambani, this uh
[20:02] Indian billionaire guy, the guy who had
[20:04] the huge wedding, if you remember that
[20:05] at Justin Bieber singing at his wedding
[20:06] and stuff. He's a great dude. Him and I
[20:08] are buddies now. But um so he's funded
[20:11] this world's largest wildlife rescue and
[20:12] rehab. It like it makes a San Diego zoo
[20:14] look like a roadside attraction. I mean,
[20:15] it's like crazy big. And so he does all
[20:18] these rescues, right? So the reason I'm
[20:20] telling you all this is they go and
[20:22] respond to these rescues and then take
[20:24] it into this gigantic world's biggest
[20:26] animal hospital that they've built. So,
[20:28] we went and rescued the elephant and now
[20:30] it's probably by today back in Ventara.
[20:33] Yeah. Here you go. And and they'll be
[20:35] treating it. So, this is long toy. This
[20:37] is the other one. We did two rescues.
[20:38] This one was born with um spplay legs
[20:41] and then went into logging and so all
[20:43] the weight and stuff from logging. See?
[20:45] See the spllay legs on the front there?
[20:47] >> Ouch.
[20:47] >> Yeah. So, anyway, that was just
[20:49] incredible. But uh the short answer is
[20:51] they do let people treat them because
[20:54] these animals are raised by in captivity
[20:56] by what's called mahoots which are
[20:58] elephant riders.
[20:59] >> And it's a really the whole dynamic is
[21:01] really fascinating. So you grow up with
[21:03] an elephant as a mahoot in Indian
[21:05] culture and then there's usually one or
[21:07] two mahoots that spend their life
[21:08] dedicated to the elephant and all they
[21:10] do is ride them, log them. They use them
[21:12] as tools but they still love them very
[21:14] much. It's just they use them as a tool.
[21:16] Elephants obviously aren't made to do
[21:18] that. So they break down over time.
[21:20] >> So that's why its legs are like that.
[21:21] It's from carrying the amount of weight
[21:23] that comes from logging.
[21:24] >> So that one would have been born with a
[21:26] deformity. Okay.
[21:27] >> But then years of compounded weight and
[21:29] everything else makes its legs like
[21:31] that.
[21:31] >> Oh,
[21:32] >> it's crazy. And then Yeah. So we go and
[21:34] we take the elephants in plus the
[21:36] Mahoots and take them all back to
[21:37] Ventara. Give the Mahoots a full-time
[21:39] job. These guys are sleeping on
[21:40] mattresses on the floor, right? And then
[21:41] take them back and it's a whole thing.
[21:43] Reform everybody. It's amazing thing.
[21:45] Yeah.
[21:45] >> Oh wow. So when they treat the
[21:47] elephants, like what what do they do for
[21:49] an elephant that has a broken leg?
[21:51] >> So most of it's just pain management,
[21:54] right? Because you can only get so far.
[21:56] So the one that got hit by
[21:57] >> you set them in a cast.
[21:58] >> Uh not really. No, you know, it depend I
[22:01] guess it depends on the fracture. I'm
[22:02] not a vet, but I guess it depends on the
[22:04] fracture. But what they do is they have
[22:06] and Jamie, you might be able to see it.
[22:07] It's incredible. They have this giant
[22:09] jacuzzi. Like imagine a jacuzzi the size
[22:11] of your building here for elephants and
[22:13] it's their hydrotherapy pool. So these
[22:15] animals that have terrible arthritis or
[22:17] [ __ ] up feet or bad legs like that,
[22:18] they just spend all day in the water
[22:20] because then there's no weight on their
[22:21] limbs.
[22:22] >> Oh wow.
[22:23] >> Which is really cool.
[22:24] >> Do they have medication like
[22:25] anti-inflammatories for elephants?
[22:28] >> Everything, man. This place uses
[22:29] unbelievable.
[22:31] Um, Eastern medicine, Western medicine,
[22:34] this crazy hospital. There's a lot of
[22:36] guys talking on their Instagram,
[22:37] unfortunately. But
[22:38] >> this one's got a prosthetic leg.
[22:41] >> Yeah. Look at that. Isn't that crazy? So
[22:43] they do these amazing mine. Oh [ __ ]
[22:46] man.
[22:47] >> But yeah, it's a really really cool
[22:48] place. Um, and we get to do some fun
[22:50] stuff. So I was I was really privileged
[22:52] to be part of those elephant rescues.
[22:53] It's really emotional when you see an
[22:54] animal like an elephant that has so much
[22:56] like intelligence look you in the eye
[22:58] and be like, I'm in so much pain and
[23:00] then you like start to relieve it. It's
[23:02] cool.
[23:02] >> I um went to visit this uh place in
[23:05] Thailand a few years back that has wild
[23:08] elephants. So they're wild elephants,
[23:10] but you you can ride them and that you
[23:12] feed them. So you make you have you make
[23:14] friends with them first. Like you feed
[23:16] them sugar cane, you hang out with them,
[23:18] you pet them and
[23:19] >> and then they let you ride them and they
[23:21] put their arm out like this like go
[23:22] ahead.
[23:22] >> Yeah. To walk up to
[23:23] >> Come on, go ahead. So it lets you know
[23:25] like, okay.
[23:26] >> I didn't like the riding part. It felt
[23:28] wrong to me. Just like it's a thing that
[23:30] like all the tourists did, but my family
[23:32] wanted to do it, so I said okay.
[23:33] >> Yeah.
[23:34] >> But it's okay. But the animals
[23:36] themselves are so sweet. Yeah, they're
[23:38] like when you're hanging around with
[23:40] them. They're like they're so one of
[23:42] them I I got a video of it on my
[23:43] Instagram.
[23:44] >> She was just like eating a log.
[23:47] >> She kept chewing on this log and I'm
[23:49] just hanging out with her and I made
[23:50] this like video with me. I'm like she's
[23:52] eating a log. I don't know why she's
[23:53] eating this log but
[23:54] >> she's really sweet.
[23:56] >> But it wasn't um
[23:58] >> it was it was a weird it's a weird
[24:00] relationship that they have. And then
[24:02] you wash them at the end of the trip.
[24:03] Yeah. So you get them in the they get in
[24:05] this pool, this big pond, and you could
[24:07] just wash them and hang out with them
[24:08] and they like it that you do that. So it
[24:11] feels good to them and they're like,
[24:12] "Thank you." Well, no, thank you for
[24:14] carrying me.
[24:15] >> There's good and bads. Like I mean
[24:17] elephants have been used through
[24:18] history, right? In war, in logging, in
[24:20] circuses, everything else. But now I
[24:23] would say in the last 20 years we're
[24:24] finally sort of waking up to hey a
[24:26] lifetime of being on an elephant's back
[24:28] like you can see the deformities, you
[24:29] can see the bed sores, you can see the
[24:30] hip displac or hip issues
[24:33] >> from carrying people carrying people.
[24:35] >> They're just not designed for it. You
[24:36] know they look you think they are when
[24:38] you look at them and you're like what
[24:39] could have you know we're like an ant on
[24:40] that thing's back but it it's pretty
[24:43] hard on them. And the hardest part is
[24:44] actually not you or I or anybody riding
[24:46] them. It's walking on concrete.
[24:48] >> Oh,
[24:49] >> cuz elephants have these soft padded
[24:51] feet. They're not designed for rock hard
[24:53] ground. So, the impact of walking on
[24:56] pavement is actually that compounding
[24:58] with weight added weight. That's what's
[25:00] actually so bad for them.
[25:01] >> I bet the heat of the com the asphalt
[25:04] too. Dogs like dogs hate the heat of
[25:07] asphalt. It's horrible for them.
[25:09] >> And the weirdest thing about an elephant
[25:10] foot, if you look at its anatomy,
[25:11] they're one of the few animals that walk
[25:13] on their toes. So, they don't have toes
[25:15] splitting out like we do. They walk on
[25:17] top of their toes. So that, you know,
[25:19] imagine that compounding on heat plus
[25:22] weight.
[25:23] >> Um,
[25:24] >> I got a good closeup, I guess, to
[25:26] >> weird. It's a weird animal.
[25:27] >> Yeah, they're cool.
[25:28] >> Isn't it cool that they thought that
[25:29] that's what a cyclops was when they
[25:31] found the skull?
[25:32] >> Yeah, because the skull. Yeah,
[25:33] >> that's why they thought cyclopses were a
[25:35] real thing.
[25:35] >> Dude, have you ever seen Have you ever
[25:36] been to the Explorers Club in New York
[25:38] City?
[25:38] >> No.
[25:39] >> That's worth a visit. You would love it.
[25:40] They have the Champuata tiger there.
[25:42] Like the most famous maneating tigers.
[25:44] Well, that's the one that killed like
[25:45] 476 people.
[25:47] >> Is that what the number something crazy?
[25:48] >> I actually have it on my YouTube and I
[25:50] don't remember the name. Uh,
[25:51] >> it's more than 400 people, right?
[25:53] >> It's crazy. And then Jim Corbett went
[25:54] and shot it. Yeah. And he almost named
[25:56] my son Corbett cuz I love that story so
[25:58] much. But, um, but they have the only
[26:01] four tusked elephant at the Explorers
[26:03] Club in New York City.
[26:04] >> Whoa.
[26:04] >> I'm sure Jamie, you could find a picture
[26:06] of the skull. Nobody knows why. Total
[26:08] anomaly. Nobody's ever seen it. Nobody
[26:10] knows why. I think it's the only one in
[26:12] existence. And it literally has four
[26:13] tusks coming out of it.
[26:15] >> Just a weird genetic thing,
[26:16] >> I think. So, like that sple-legged one
[26:18] we look
[26:19] >> sometimes with elk um they'll get an
[26:22] injury when they're young and then
[26:23] they'll get weird deformities of their
[26:25] their antlers.
[26:26] >> But is that different because they shed
[26:28] their antlers every year? So, they grow
[26:30] back in weird ways. I don't
[26:31] >> That's a good question. I think it's um
[26:33] an injury to the the skull.
[26:35] >> Yeah.
[26:36] >> So, an injury to like the area where the
[26:38] antler is. Like sometimes they'll just
[26:39] have one sword.
[26:41] >> Yeah. Like um there was a a ranch that
[26:44] uh in California that had this one elk
[26:46] that was killing all the other elk
[26:48] because uh he didn't have antlers the
[26:50] same way. Oh, they got a yeti scout.
[26:52] Where'd you find that, Jamie?
[26:54] >> 11 interesting things you can see there.
[26:56] Oh, the explorers.
[26:58] >> Oh, interesting.
[26:59] >> Oh, I'm sure that's legit. Um so this uh
[27:02] one elk had uh on one side he had like
[27:06] normal antlers,
[27:07] >> but the other side he just had a spear.
[27:09] >> Oh, wow. And so he was just stabbing all
[27:11] these other elk. The [ __ ] is this guy
[27:13] doing? Because he wasn't like they're
[27:15] used to their antlers interlocking, of
[27:17] course. And this is the thing. They get
[27:18] together and they clash and they try to
[27:20] impress the ladies. Well,
[27:22] >> there he is. The tusks. That's cool.
[27:25] >> That's so weird.
[27:25] >> Very weird. Four. And they're they're
[27:27] like weird. The way they're inter
[27:29] they're going towards each other is
[27:31] weird.
[27:31] >> Which makes you realize it's a genetic
[27:33] deformity, right? Cuz it's not like this
[27:35] perfect symmetrical like nature made it.
[27:37] It's it's just it's a mutation of some
[27:39] kind.
[27:40] >> Well, that's what's weird about genes,
[27:41] right? Like things go wonky all the
[27:42] time. Someone's born with an extra arm.
[27:44] You're like, "Okay."
[27:45] >> Yeah. Sometimes people are born with
[27:46] tails and you're like, "Oh,
[27:49] >> so so weird."
[27:50] >> Dude, you you and I talked about
[27:52] Barbaruso one time, the the pigs that
[27:54] have those crazy
[27:55] >> Yeah. they go into their own skulls.
[27:57] >> My buddy who's a vet, he just cut a horn
[27:59] out of a sable sable antelope that was
[28:02] growing into its own skull.
[28:03] >> Oh god,
[28:03] >> it's I have a video of it on my
[28:05] Instagram, Jamie, if you want to see it.
[28:06] But it's um it so it got an injury so it
[28:09] killed part of the horn. And you know
[28:11] they're antelope they're not deer so
[28:12] they don't shed their horns so they grow
[28:14] forever. So this guy had this giant horn
[28:17] just circling back punching into its own
[28:19] skull.
[28:20] >> Can you imagine that dude? It was
[28:23] gnarly.
[28:24] >> The pigs are nuts though. Or what
[28:25] whatever that animal's called.
[28:27] >> The babarusa.
[28:28] >> Is it a pig? It's technically a pig.
[28:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's like a Indonesian
[28:31] warthog. Yeah.
[28:32] >> But the way it goes into its own skull
[28:34] no matter what. Like it always happens.
[28:35] >> Yeah. cuz they have to fight and break
[28:37] them off. And if they don't fight and
[28:39] break them off, they just It's just
[28:41] nature's so weird, man. Yeah.
[28:43] >> I mean, that is [ __ ] crazy.
[28:44] >> They're so cool.
[28:45] >> I wonder what those things taste like.
[28:47] >> I bet they taste great. I think all the
[28:48] swine tastes great.
[28:50] >> I had havalina, which is not technically
[28:53] a swine. It's a peckery.
[28:55] >> Uhhuh.
[28:56] >> It wasn't that good.
[28:57] >> Not good.
[28:57] >> No.
[28:58] >> Huh. That's unfortunate.
[28:59] >> It's odd.
[29:00] >> Yeah.
[29:00] >> Yeah. It's like Oh, no. Just not the
[29:02] best. Like, well, you got to think of
[29:04] what they're eating. They, you know, for
[29:06] what I know about Haval, they eat
[29:07] garbage primarily.
[29:08] >> Yeah. I think that's part of the problem
[29:10] because like that's the case with uh
[29:12] bears,
[29:13] >> right? Like uh my friend Steve Reanella
[29:16] um cooked uh a bear steak
[29:19] >> or a bear ham on his friend's uh smoker
[29:23] >> and he said to his friend, he said,
[29:25] "Hey, uh you should probably clean that
[29:27] smoker. It smells like fish." And he
[29:29] goes, "I've never cooked fish in that
[29:31] smoker once."
[29:32] >> And it was just from the bear. The bear
[29:35] had eaten so much fish that as he was
[29:37] smoking the bear, all you could smell
[29:39] was fish.
[29:40] >> That's disgusting. It's like eating a
[29:42] seagull.
[29:42] >> Whoa, look at this one. It's going right
[29:44] into its head.
[29:44] >> That's the guy. Yeah. Isn't that crazy?
[29:46] >> Wow. That's nuts.
[29:48] >> And it's Yeah, he like cuts the horn off
[29:50] and you can see cuz the horn's a living
[29:52] thing. There's only
[29:52] >> How is that animal still alive?
[29:54] >> Barely. Like they he had millimeters of
[29:57] growth to go before it punched right
[29:58] into his brain.
[29:59] >> That's crazy.
[30:01] >> Isn't that gnarly?
[30:02] >> That's so gnarly. It's like digging and
[30:05] imagine that like every day just a tiny
[30:08] little amount more is growing into your
[30:11] brain.
[30:11] >> It's got to be this constant pain where
[30:13] like it just it just gets tiny bit worse
[30:16] all the time
[30:16] >> sawing through it.
[30:17] >> See how much into the skull it went like
[30:19] it was right there.
[30:20] >> That's crazy, man.
[30:22] >> So gross. I thought you'd like that.
[30:24] >> I don't know what that says about me.
[30:26] You thought that I would like that.
[30:28] >> I don't know.
[30:28] >> That is gnarly, man.
[30:30] >> That poor dude. Now he doesn't have any
[30:32] antlers. Yep.
[30:33] >> Or horns, right? Is it technically
[30:34] horns?
[30:35] >> Horns. Yeah, but he's still got a brain,
[30:37] so that helps.
[30:37] >> Well, carry on, bro.
[30:39] >> Yeah,
[30:40] >> nature's a [ __ ] dude.
[30:42] >> Dude, it's crazy.
[30:43] >> Um, where's the thyloine, man? What's
[30:45] going on?
[30:46] >> It's gone pretty cold, dude. Really?
[30:47] >> Yeah. I mean, Damn it. I was hoping
[30:49] you'd come in with new evidence.
[30:52] >> I wish I was. There's a group that I've
[30:53] I've been working with like called
[30:55] Mammal Watching, like if you heard of
[30:56] bird watching, and they've been going
[30:58] into Western Pap and Papua New Guinea,
[31:00] which is, as you know, where I think
[31:01] there could still be a tiny population.
[31:04] >> And uh so I'm working with them. They're
[31:06] giving trail cameras out to guys.
[31:08] They're still hearing legends here and
[31:09] there, but it's just I don't know. It's
[31:11] It feels like the legends are getting
[31:13] fewer and further between, like almost
[31:15] over generational time,
[31:17] >> it's disappearing, if that makes sense.
[31:19] >> Oh, that's a bad sign.
[31:20] >> Yeah. That means whatever's left is
[31:22] probably dying off, right?
[31:23] >> If at all. Yeah. And I mean, I still
[31:25] hold out hope. It's something I've
[31:26] always wanted to be and I like I want it
[31:28] to be there, but it just it feels like
[31:31] those bits of evidence that were
[31:33] compounding have all sort of started to
[31:35] fade.
[31:36] >> That sucks.
[31:37] >> I know. Really?
[31:37] >> It is a very interesting thing with the
[31:40] incredible variety of wildlife that we
[31:42] have that we're so fascinated by the
[31:44] ones that might not be alive. this the
[31:47] like the things like the thyloine or the
[31:49] giant sloth.
[31:50] >> Yeah.
[31:50] >> Like I I remember I watched this
[31:52] documentary
[31:53] >> on the giant sloth. There was this one
[31:55] >> scientist, this biologist who had spent
[31:57] an inordinate amount of time, like years
[32:00] in in the Amazon looking for a giant
[32:03] sloth and was realizing at some point in
[32:05] time during the documentary that he
[32:06] might have ruined his career,
[32:08] >> overdoing it. Yeah.
[32:08] >> Because he might have been chasing
[32:10] something that doesn't exist. And it's
[32:11] this wild gamble if he listens to these
[32:14] people and they're telling him the
[32:15] truth, right? Because all the natives
[32:17] like, "Oh yeah, bro. They're out here."
[32:18] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[32:19] >> Right around the next turn.
[32:20] >> You'll We'll find them tomorrow. Yeah.
[32:21] >> Right over the next mountain. Yeah. I've
[32:23] been there. But you know, if you don't
[32:25] follow those leads, like do you know
[32:26] what the Sa is? The Asian unicorn.
[32:29] >> I've heard that. Yeah.
[32:30] >> It same thing. Same story, but real
[32:32] animal. And you know, there was there
[32:34] was basically one ever seen by Western
[32:36] science, an animal named Martha. And for
[32:39] years, scientists, Western scientists
[32:41] were going into Vietnam and Laos and
[32:42] they're going, "Yeah, yeah, we we have
[32:43] this thing called the salo, the Asian
[32:44] unicorn." and they're like, "Shut up."
[32:46] You know, and then all of a sudden turns
[32:47] out here's this giant bovid that still
[32:49] exists.
[32:50] >> What a cool looking animal, too.
[32:52] >> Yeah. And nobody knows whether they
[32:54] still exist now or not. Is
[32:54] >> that it right there?
[32:55] >> That's it. Yeah. So, basically, there's
[32:57] been three or four, maybe more that have
[32:59] ever been seen. Um, most of them caught
[33:01] in poacher snares like this one. But
[33:04] then really cool guy named Bill Robad
[33:06] got a call once from a prince and he had
[33:09] caught one and it was in his village and
[33:10] he flew in there and overnight the poor
[33:13] thing died. And that was the only time a
[33:16] single westerner in history has ever
[33:17] seen a live salah.
[33:18] >> Oh wow.
[33:19] >> And this guy had it and then and then
[33:20] he's like, "Can we please preserve it?"
[33:22] And the king was like, "Nah, we're gonna
[33:23] eat it." And they ate it.
[33:25] >> Whoa.
[33:25] >> Got nothing out of it. Yeah. He's got
[33:27] pictures and stuff, so you know it's all
[33:29] it's all real. But they call it the
[33:31] unicorn because its horns are so
[33:32] symmetrical that when you look at it
[33:34] from a side profile, it looks like one
[33:36] horn coming out of its head.
[33:37] >> Oh, like that.
[33:38] >> Exactly. Yeah.
[33:39] >> That's weird.
[33:40] >> Yeah. They're very cool. But it's a
[33:42] boit. It's a It's a cattle. That's
[33:44] That's not one. I don't know why they're
[33:45] using that photo.
[33:47] >> Oh, how odd.
[33:48] >> Yeah, but that's the same thing as
[33:50] these, you know, these things around
[33:52] giant sloths and and thyloine and
[33:54] Bigfoot and everything else. It's it's
[33:56] they are out there, you know, some of
[33:57] them, not all of them, but they are out
[33:59] there. And if you don't follow the lead,
[34:00] if you ignore it, then you miss things
[34:02] like that. Well, there's also like when
[34:04] you look think about things like the
[34:05] Amazon, like if you ever see footage of
[34:08] the Amazon from above, you go, "Oh,
[34:11] there's no way you know.
[34:12] >> It's so big."
[34:13] >> You you look down and you go, "Oh, well,
[34:14] well, there's no way, you know, this is
[34:16] this is way too big." And there's no way
[34:18] there's bunch of people scouring every
[34:21] inch of that place.
[34:22] >> I mean, given there are still groups of
[34:24] human beings unconted, you know?
[34:26] >> Oh, a lot. Like my friend Paul Rosley.
[34:27] Yeah, I know. Yeah. He's come in contact
[34:30] with them multiple times. See if you can
[34:32] get some aerial footage of flying over
[34:35] the Amazon. I mean, it's it's in
[34:37] multiple countries. It's what is it?
[34:39] Peru, Bolivia, where else? Brazil,
[34:42] >> Argentina. It's
[34:45] big.
[34:45] >> It's huge.
[34:46] >> It's so [ __ ] big.
[34:48] >> And I had a similar experience in New
[34:49] Guinea talking about thyloine where we
[34:51] got on a plane in a place called Tufi
[34:52] and flew to another area.
[34:54] >> Like look at this.
[34:55] >> It was just like this for 4 hours. We
[34:56] didn't see one building.
[34:58] >> Amazon in 4K. So just imag like there is
[35:01] no [ __ ] way you know you know what's
[35:03] in there.
[35:04] >> No way.
[35:04] >> There's probably a bunch of [ __ ] in
[35:05] there that no one has found.
[35:07] >> And then there Oh, undeniably there are.
[35:10] Um and then there's stuff you know like
[35:12] you'll get a kick out of this. Loch Ness
[35:14] monster.
[35:15] >> What do you think it is?
[35:17] >> Maybe a sturgeon or something like that.
[35:19] >> Jamie, what do you think the Loch Ness
[35:20] monster is?
[35:21] >> Don't I mean I think they know, but I
[35:22] don't know. Uh pro I don't know.
[35:25] >> Whale dick.
[35:26] >> What?
[35:26] >> Whale dick.
[35:27] >> Whale dick.
[35:28] >> Whale dick. Not a narwhal. Pull it up.
[35:31] Loch nest monster versus whale dick.
[35:32] Look at this. And tell me this isn't
[35:34] what they think is the Loch nest.
[35:35] >> Wait a minute. Do you mean like the
[35:36] photos that the the hoax photo of the
[35:39] one that's poking out of the water?
[35:41] >> That one. I mean, you'll see it in a
[35:43] second here, I think. But there are
[35:44] these photos of a whale's penis compared
[35:47] to the Loch Ness monster.
[35:49] >> And I mean, I that's certainly not
[35:51] proof, but it kind of answers a lot of
[35:54] like that's a whale dick right there.
[35:56] >> That is a whale dick. That photo I'm
[35:59] pretty sure is a proven hoax.
[36:01] >> That one is.
[36:02] >> Yeah. I think that photo was like a guy
[36:04] like made something out of wood and like
[36:07] floated it in the water and took a
[36:08] picture. Is that what the story behind
[36:09] that is?
[36:10] >> There's something along those lines.
[36:12] >> No. Loch Ness Monster isn't a whale
[36:14] penis. Professor says
[36:15] >> Oh, okay. Well, the if the internet
[36:17] professor says it then
[36:19] >> Oh, a professor.
[36:21] >> Oh, well, let's take him seriously. He's
[36:23] out there.
[36:23] >> There's no whales there. If you're the
[36:25] type of professor that they call upon
[36:27] when they're trying to figure out if
[36:28] something's a whale dick,
[36:30] >> maybe.
[36:31] >> Sir, would you please study these nine
[36:32] whale penis and tell us your thoughts on
[36:34] this?
[36:34] >> Maybe that's what happened to that.
[36:36] What?
[36:36] >> It was his claim and then he said he was
[36:38] just like kind of messing around.
[36:40] >> Well, I'm sticking with it. I like it. I
[36:41] like the whale.
[36:42] >> He's the one the guy that proposed it.
[36:44] >> Oh. Oh,
[36:45] >> darn it. I like it.
[36:46] >> He since walked back his salacious
[36:49] claim. That's so funny. Maybe that's the
[36:51] guy that was looking for the the giant
[36:53] sloth.
[36:54] >> He's like, I need a new angle.
[36:56] >> This giant sloth thing did not pan out.
[36:58] >> I like it. Big D.
[37:00] >> If you're if you're a guy looking for a
[37:01] giant sloth in the Amazon, like where do
[37:03] you look? Like how good luck finding it.
[37:06] >> You have to find geographically isolated
[37:09] areas, you know, because they're little
[37:10] pockets, right? If little pockets of
[37:13] okay, people aren't coming in here,
[37:14] animals aren't going out, there's a big
[37:17] ring of mountains, there's whatever it
[37:19] happens to be. I I I met a guy who said
[37:22] he guaranteed he knew, you know, all
[37:23] these people like this, but I I always
[37:25] enjoy the story of it that there was
[37:27] this pocket in Peru that was completely
[37:29] geographically isolated by the mountains
[37:31] and that's where they were. And the idea
[37:33] is that these areas remain unchanged,
[37:35] right? It's like an island basically in
[37:37] the Amazon. Like things just don't
[37:39] change because it's so isolated from
[37:41] everything else. Well, I think the idea
[37:43] also is that giant sloths were where we
[37:46] know they existed in North America that
[37:49] um whenever whatever happened that ended
[37:52] the ice age, the younger dest
[37:59] at the equator was more of a northern
[38:01] hemisphere thing.
[38:02] >> Yeah. Because the climate shift was so
[38:03] much stronger.
[38:04] >> Exactly. And
[38:05] >> so the most of the animals that died
[38:07] off, if you look at like the I think it
[38:10] was 65% of North American megapa died
[38:13] off during this very short window.
[38:15] >> Yep.
[38:15] >> That that didn't happen right in South
[38:18] America, right? And that we're just
[38:19] guessing that they're dead.
[38:21] >> Yeah.
[38:21] >> You know, because if there was a healthy
[38:24] like think how many tigers are there in
[38:25] the wild? I think there's 5,000.
[38:27] >> Uh something like that. Yeah. It's gone
[38:29] way up by the way. Used it was down to
[38:31] 400. Fun fact, more tigers in captivity
[38:34] in Texas.
[38:35] >> I know.
[38:36] >> Than there are in all of the wild of the
[38:37] world.
[38:38] >> It's
[38:40] >> Texas crazy, man. It's such a wild
[38:42] >> in people's yards.
[38:43] >> Yeah.
[38:44] >> In private collections in Texas, there's
[38:46] more tigers than all of the wild of the
[38:49] world.
[38:50] >> It's such an insane statement that
[38:51] should not exist.
[38:53] >> I love the state.
[38:54] >> It's just my favorite place.
[38:56] >> Get away with it.
[38:57] >> It's just a wild place. Like for all
[39:00] intents and purposes. Yeah. Oh, it's
[39:02] hilarious. Um,
[39:03] >> wild for people,
[39:04] >> dude. I love Texas. Every time I come to
[39:05] Texas, I'm like, "This place is great. I
[39:07] always have fun. Everybody's so nice,
[39:09] too."
[39:09] >> Exactly.
[39:10] >> That's the best part is like nobody
[39:11] scowls at you. You get in the elevator
[39:13] and they're like, "Hey, how's your day
[39:14] going?" And you're like,
[39:15] >> "Very friendly.
[39:16] >> I'll tell you how it's going." very um a
[39:19] lot of people, especially coastal
[39:21] elites, I would like to say, like people
[39:24] coastal snobs, they have this idea of it
[39:27] being like filled with rednecks and
[39:29] ignorant people and foolish people. It's
[39:31] >> not that way at all. Especially Austin.
[39:34] Austin is like one of the most like
[39:36] liberal, easygoing, progressive cities.
[39:40] >> Yeah.
[39:40] >> But like even the progressives here,
[39:42] they're like more reasonable.
[39:44] >> It's like down to earth. Yeah. Like
[39:45] extremism, right?
[39:47] >> Well, they they're definitely more crazy
[39:49] than they were 20 years ago when I first
[39:50] started coming here.
[39:51] >> Okay.
[39:51] >> But way less crazy than like liberals in
[39:54] LA.
[39:55] >> Yeah.
[39:55] >> Or liberals in Cal or liberals in New
[39:57] York.
[39:58] >> Just where they're where it's just
[39:59] extreme, right? Like protests and all
[40:01] these Yeah.
[40:02] >> Well, it's like this there's a saying
[40:04] about Austin, keep Austin weird and
[40:07] surrounded
[40:08] >> and surrounded. What is the and
[40:09] surrounded?
[40:10] >> Surrounded by red people. like it's all
[40:12] red states around you and it's this
[40:14] pocket of blue that's in the center of
[40:16] this red state. I think that's good for
[40:20] everybody. I think that's good. It's a
[40:23] balance and like the the liberals that
[40:25] want to turn Texas blue like don't
[40:28] >> you're going to ruin it. You're going to
[40:30] ruin it for you too. You don't get it.
[40:32] Like balance is important. It's like you
[40:35] can't kill all the predators because
[40:37] then the deer get overrun and you you're
[40:39] hitting them with cars and you can't
[40:41] kill all the deer cuz then there's no
[40:44] food and I mean that's what they did
[40:45] when they were market hunting. Balance
[40:48] and you need balance with humans too
[40:50] >> 100%.
[40:50] >> And the Austin balance is a great
[40:52] balance. It's a liberal city surrounded
[40:55] by like hardcore Republicans with guns
[40:57] and tigers
[40:58] >> and it works. And it all works.
[41:00] >> It works. It makes for nice people.
[41:05] and a misunderstood mix.
[41:07] >> It's interesting.
[41:09] >> They have a very a distorted perception
[41:12] of what Texas is, especially Austin.
[41:15] >> Yeah. Well, how do you feel as a
[41:16] California? I mean, you bounced around,
[41:18] but as a California transplant, did you
[41:20] bring your asai bowls and you're, you
[41:21] know, you're like, I need all that
[41:22] California stuff here?
[41:24] >> What stuff?
[41:25] >> I don't know. I mean, I don't know.
[41:26] That's like, that's the thing, though,
[41:27] right? Is like all the Californians
[41:29] coming here and messing it up kind of
[41:30] thing.
[41:31] >> I was never one of those. So my what I
[41:34] got out of California was the comedy
[41:36] store and work.
[41:37] >> Yeah.
[41:38] >> And then jiujitsu. So like you get all
[41:40] that here. Austin is arguably the
[41:42] jiu-jitsu capital of the world right
[41:43] now.
[41:43] >> Really?
[41:44] >> Oh yeah.
[41:44] >> Oh, that's interesting. Is this where
[41:45] the new league is based out of?
[41:47] >> No, that's You mean the the UFC league?
[41:50] Yeah.
[41:50] >> No, that's in Vegas. They do that in
[41:52] Vegas. Um because that's where the UFC's
[41:54] headquarters are. But Austin has um
[41:56] Kings World, which is uh Gordon Ryan's
[41:59] place. He's got B team is out here. Uh
[42:02] Shan Jra Hibro is out here. Okay.
[42:05] >> Um there's a bunch of Gracie Baja
[42:07] schools out here. There's multiple 10th
[42:09] planet schools out here. It's like
[42:12] there's an incredible amount of
[42:13] jiu-jitsu out here.
[42:14] >> So what I'm hearing is this is where to
[42:16] bring Run Nation. Bring it to Austin.
[42:18] >> Don't eat that. They'll never win. The
[42:21] only people that are going to win are
[42:22] those wild New Zealand dudes and those
[42:24] Australian guys. Those guys will win
[42:26] every time. They're built for that [ __ ]
[42:28] No, but it's uh it's just a great city,
[42:32] period. Artistically, it's always been
[42:34] like a great music city. Now, it's
[42:36] arguably the comedy capital of the
[42:38] country. Like, I mean, there's so many
[42:40] comedians here now, right?
[42:41] >> It's because they got here and they
[42:43] went, "Oh, this is way better. There's
[42:44] no traffic. Everyone's nice."
[42:45] >> Yeah.
[42:46] >> And and you can do whatever you want.
[42:47] And also, there's a lot of places to do
[42:49] comedy. And just on my street where my
[42:52] club is, there's five or six other clubs
[42:54] that have opened up since we opened up.
[42:56] >> Oh, wow.
[42:56] >> So, it's incredible. So, if you're a
[42:58] young comic and you or an established
[43:00] comic that just wants to work out
[43:02] material, you could go go to my club.
[43:04] You can hop down the street to the
[43:05] Sunset Room, which is my friend Brian's
[43:07] Club, right down the street, and you can
[43:08] go down the street to the Creek in the
[43:10] Cave. An amazing club that's just two
[43:12] seconds away. Oh, cool.
[43:13] >> It's like one block over. Like,
[43:15] everything's close. The Vulcan, which is
[43:17] right there. Everything's right there.
[43:18] >> Huh.
[43:19] >> It's incredible. It's incredible.
[43:20] >> It's great. I'm glad you're so stoked
[43:22] here. I love I remember when uh the
[43:25] first maybe the second time we hung out
[43:27] down at your show in uh not West Lake,
[43:28] where was it? Woodland Hills, right? And
[43:30] you were like, "Dude, I gotta get out of
[43:32] here."
[43:33] >> Yeah. I wanted to I wanted to get out a
[43:35] long time ago. Yeah. And fun fact,
[43:38] >> we started the podcast because I was
[43:40] depressed cuz I had to move back from
[43:42] Colorado.
[43:42] >> Oh, really? So, I lived in Colorado for
[43:44] a little bit, but my wife got pregnant
[43:46] and when she was pregnant, it was like
[43:48] if you are an altitude, we were at 8,500
[43:52] ft above sea level, it's rough.
[43:54] >> And we went back to LA for a short
[43:56] period of time and she was fine. And
[43:58] then we went back to Colorado and she
[44:00] was sick again. I was like, okay. And
[44:02] then we were reading about low birth
[44:04] weight, premature birth. is a lot of
[44:06] like really bad things that happen to
[44:08] people, especially if you're not
[44:09] acclimated and you move to these high
[44:13] altitude areas.
[44:14] >> By the way,
[44:16] >> working out there, when I worked out
[44:18] there, I I was I thought I was going to
[44:19] die and then um I uh went to uh
[44:23] Philadelphia and I had to do some gigs
[44:26] in Philadelphia and I worked out and I
[44:28] felt like I could run through a wall.
[44:30] >> You just had so much oxygen in your
[44:32] body.
[44:32] >> So much. I was like, "This is
[44:34] incredible." It's the only time in my
[44:35] life I've ever been altitude adjusted
[44:38] like where my my body had adapted and I
[44:40] was like there's a ma this is a massive
[44:42] advantage. No wonder why fighters do it.
[44:44] >> And you don't acclimate being up at that
[44:46] height over months or anything else.
[44:47] >> Oh, I did. I certainly did. Like I could
[44:49] work out there and I I used to uh I did
[44:52] jiu-jitsu in Boulder. So Boulder was I
[44:55] was in a place called Gold Hill which is
[44:57] 8,500 ft above sea level and Boulder is
[45:00] like 55.
[45:01] >> Okay. So I was doing shout out to Amal
[45:03] Eastston, my friend Amal. He was a
[45:05] jiu-jitsu gym in Boulder. Great place.
[45:07] And when I was training there, it was
[45:09] fine. I mean, you train, but you
[45:10] definitely could feel it. It was And I
[45:12] had trained there once before
[45:14] >> when uh I had come from LA, and I was
[45:16] like, "Woo, this altitude is rough."
[45:17] Like, it's like working out in Denver.
[45:18] You're like, "Woo, you feel it,
[45:20] >> but not like you feel it at 8,500 ft."
[45:22] 8,500 feet was I do this
[45:25] >> these uh kettle bell workouts. And I was
[45:26] doing it and I I'm I'm used to what it
[45:29] does. I'm used to and I was like this is
[45:32] crazy. This feels like I'm drunk.
[45:36] >> It really felt like I drank a bottle of
[45:38] whiskey and tried to work out. I was so
[45:39] tired.
[45:40] >> I went to the Himalayas like maybe four
[45:42] or five years ago to look for red pandas
[45:44] up in the trees. You know, those cute
[45:45] little guys. And uh day one I I
[45:48] literally maybe made it 400 ft and then
[45:51] had to sit down. And I was like, "All
[45:52] right, we're trekking for pandas. We're
[45:54] heading up into the mountains. We'll
[45:55] find these pandas." And I I just I don't
[45:57] remember what the elevation was, but I'd
[45:59] come from Santa Barbara, where I live,
[46:00] which is sea level, to this high
[46:02] Himalayas. And I I had to sit down like
[46:05] every 15 minutes for the first couple
[46:07] days.
[46:07] >> The most horrifying video the other day
[46:10] >> of this guy who was on one of those um
[46:13] summit hikes
[46:15] >> and slipped.
[46:17] >> Oh no. His friends watched him slide
[46:20] >> like all the way down to
[46:21] >> just sliding
[46:23] >> down ice and snow and couldn't stop and
[46:27] couldn't and they just had to stand
[46:28] there and watch this guy slide away.
[46:30] >> What can you do?
[46:31] >> Nothing.
[46:32] >> That's so crazy.
[46:33] >> D Yeah.
[46:34] >> Yeah. He was trying He was making it to
[46:36] the summit
[46:37] >> and slipped.
[46:38] >> Yeah. It's brutal.
[46:39] slipped off the, you know, just a very
[46:42] clear path and slipped off of it and
[46:44] just starts sliding
[46:45] >> and you realize, oh, he's gone. He's
[46:48] going to go off forever.
[46:50] >> That's crazy.
[46:51] >> Oh, it's horrible.
[46:52] >> I always want to like take my kids to do
[46:53] these things with me, you know, and I'm
[46:54] like, ah, I want to take them to trek
[46:56] and see the mountains and catch
[46:58] crocodiles and do all these various
[46:59] things that I like to do. And you
[47:00] realize it's like my six-year-old can
[47:02] barely walk in a straight line without
[47:04] falling down. You know what I mean?
[47:05] Like, imagine taking him on a mountain
[47:07] track. Oh, it's so scary. But on the
[47:09] other the other hand, like you don't
[47:10] want to protect them too much. You want
[47:12] to expose them to a certain amount of
[47:14] danger because I think it's good for
[47:16] them. It's good for them%.
[47:17] >> Yeah. It's good for them to experience.
[47:19] It's also good for them to have like uh
[47:22] a broader understanding of what the
[47:25] world is, right? Like the world is a
[47:27] bunch of different things. It's not just
[47:30] Santa Monica. That's right.
[47:31] >> Like, oh, there's Costa Rica. Like,
[47:33] whoa, this is crazy. Look at these bugs.
[47:35] These are nuts. Like birds. Like there's
[47:37] it's nice for them. It's important. It's
[47:39] it Yeah.
[47:39] >> Because otherwise we live in a bubble.
[47:41] Like America is great. I I say this to
[47:43] my wife all the time. I'm so patriotic.
[47:45] I love this country.
[47:47] >> It's great. But it's a bubble.
[47:48] >> Yeah.
[47:49] >> Everything's easy. It's safe. You can
[47:50] order [ __ ] on your phone. It shows up at
[47:52] your house. You know, there's a million
[47:53] restaurants to pick from. Obviously, it
[47:55] depends where you live, but you get my
[47:56] point.
[47:56] >> Yes.
[47:57] >> And then you get out of here and it's
[47:58] like,
[47:59] >> "Okay, everything closes at 4 p.m. Like,
[48:00] go figure out your food." You know what
[48:02] I mean? And then you're like, "Okay,
[48:03] well now I now I have two kids who are
[48:06] hungry and we're in the jungle or it's,
[48:07] you know, in a town that everything
[48:09] shuts down on Sundays or whatever." It's
[48:10] like, figure it out.
[48:11] >> Those are important lessons for little
[48:13] kids to be dynamic and figure out like
[48:15] how the rest of the world works and that
[48:17] they have to figure out how to get
[48:19] things when it's not all just at the
[48:20] touch of your, you know, phone.
[48:22] >> Also to recognize that there's going to
[48:23] be times where you don't have food.
[48:25] >> Yeah. Like, yeah, people are just so
[48:27] accustomed to having food anytime
[48:29] they're hungry. And in fact, sometimes
[48:30] when they're not even hungry, they're
[48:32] just bored. So, they start stuffing
[48:33] their face when they're bored, which
[48:35] never existed in all of human history.
[48:37] >> No. No, dude. I just read, you might be
[48:40] well read on this, but I just read
[48:42] something interesting. The 8our night of
[48:44] sleep.
[48:44] >> Yes.
[48:45] >> Invented by a mattress company. You know
[48:47] about this?
[48:47] >> I didn't know it was invented by a
[48:48] mattress company, but I do know that
[48:50] traditionally in the past, people would
[48:52] do two sleeps.
[48:53] >> That's right. Yeah.
[48:54] >> Yeah.
[48:54] >> This was Yeah. So, you know about what
[48:56] I'm talking about. I just read this
[48:57] literally yesterday in one of my doom
[48:58] scrolling things. But,
[48:59] >> it's interesting because I did that a
[49:02] lot when I was young where I would wake
[49:04] up in the middle of the night and I just
[49:06] decide to watch TV and do something for
[49:08] TV for a few hours and then I go back to
[49:10] sleep.
[49:10] >> But it was just for me it was just like
[49:12] being indulgent because I was single and
[49:15] free and, you know, 25 years old and I
[49:17] had my own apartment. I'm like, I can do
[49:18] whatever the [ __ ] I want. Get up at 3:00
[49:20] in the morning and watch TV for a couple
[49:22] hours and go to sleep till noon. Why not
[49:24] sit around in your boxers, eat cereal?
[49:26] >> Mattress part is a myth.
[49:27] >> Oh, it is.
[49:28] >> God damn it. Everything I keep bringing
[49:30] up is a myth, Jamie. No whale dicks, no
[49:32] mattresses.
[49:33] >> The killer of dreams all my stuff, man.
[49:35] >> I saw the same Instagram video you guys
[49:36] saw, and I thought it was interesting,
[49:38] too.
[49:38] >> Yeah,
[49:40] >> that is the myth. I think that might be
[49:41] a myth, but the two I think the two
[49:44] sleep thing it was a way that people
[49:46] would get up in the middle of the night.
[49:48] But you also have to think I think a lot
[49:50] of people went to bed way earlier
[49:52] because it got dark
[49:54] >> and we didn't have electricity
[49:55] >> and there's a normal circadian rhythm
[49:57] where people get it gets dark out. You
[49:59] eat maybe hang out in front of a
[50:00] campfire for a little while and then you
[50:02] go to bed. Like
[50:03] >> if you've ever gone camping, that's what
[50:05] most people do. Most people don't stay
[50:06] up till 4 in the morning when you're
[50:08] camping.
[50:08] >> Not without booze.
[50:11] >> That if you've got booze, you might be
[50:13] up late telling stories and laughing.
[50:15] And if anybody breaks out a guitar,
[50:17] you're [ __ ] Then you're up all night.
[50:19] >> And you mentioned pandas. I was going to
[50:21] ask you about a me and I had seen going
[50:22] around the same places that pandas are
[50:23] fake.
[50:24] >> Dude, did you see the zoo in China?
[50:27] >> There's a lot of people talking about
[50:28] that.
[50:28] >> Did you see the zoo in China that
[50:29] painted the Pomeranians?
[50:31] >> I did see that. But the thing is about
[50:33] pandas is that I and I I went down a
[50:35] rabbit hole with this the other night.
[50:37] There were no depictions of pandas in
[50:41] like ancient Chinese history.
[50:42] >> No. Is that true?
[50:43] >> Yeah, it is true. Yeah, they they didn't
[50:45] show up until like God, I want to say it
[50:48] was like the 16th century or 17th
[50:51] century.
[50:52] >> That's bizarre. I wonder why that is
[50:53] cuz, you know, there were explorers
[50:55] going through the area and all of that.
[50:57] >> Well, the idea was that maybe they were
[50:59] engineered to eat bamboo cuz bamboo, if
[51:02] you think about it, is like a very
[51:04] prolific print. Absolutely. Like I have
[51:06] bamboo on my property. That [ __ ] just
[51:07] grows like It's crazy how well it grows.
[51:09] Grows so quickly.
[51:10] >> And there's almost no nutritional value
[51:12] in it either,
[51:12] >> right?
[51:13] >> Yeah. So, here's the panda. Okay.
[51:15] Interesting. The claim is largely true
[51:18] >> with nuance. So, was it what did you uh
[51:20] search into perplexity? Our AI sponsor.
[51:23] Is it true that pandas aren't in Chinese
[51:25] ancient history? The claim is largely
[51:27] true though with nuance. Okay. Giant
[51:30] pandas strikingly absent from China's
[51:32] classical cultural record. Unlike the
[51:34] dragon, which is weird tiger cr by the
[51:37] way, our conversation about it made it
[51:39] to the view. I don't know if you know
[51:40] about that.
[51:41] >> I texted you. I texted you. You you
[51:43] changed your status to dragon believer.
[51:45] It was so funny. When Joy Bay is like he
[51:49] believes in dragons like oh my god this
[51:52] is wonderful.
[51:53] >> That was so good.
[51:53] >> Oh, this is so good.
[51:55] >> Okay, so when did it happen? Unlike the
[51:58] dragon tiger crane or tortoise doesn't
[52:00] appear on ancient bronzes or pottery in
[52:03] Tang poetry song paintings
[52:06] Juan Y u how do you say that? beats me.
[52:10] >> Juan drama, Ming novels or Q I N G King
[52:16] Quing. Uh before the late 20th century,
[52:18] it had essentially no symbolic role in
[52:21] Chinese civilization. Its status as a
[52:23] national treasure is a post 1949
[52:26] invention.
[52:27] >> That's bizarre.
[52:28] >> After pandas became famous famous
[52:30] globally in the 20th century, Chinese
[52:32] scholars went back and combed old texts
[52:35] looking for them. A few candidate
[52:37] references exist. Uh the Xi Jing Book of
[52:40] Odess and Shang Shu mention a creature
[52:43] called Pi or Mo which some modern
[52:46] scholars retroactively identified as the
[52:48] panda but the identification is
[52:50] contested and those same words were also
[52:52] used for leopards. Ta taper you say it
[52:55] taper. Yeah.
[52:56] >> Tapier.
[52:57] >> Mhm.
[52:58] >> Or mythical beasts. Uh Emperor Wen of
[53:01] Han se 2nd century B.C.E. reportedly had
[53:04] a mo uh buried in his mother's tomb.
[53:07] sometimes claimed as a panda.
[53:10] >> Huh.
[53:10] >> But that's it's weird.
[53:12] >> That is very bizarre.
[53:13] >> Fragmentaryary, ambiguous, and rare.
[53:16] Nothing like the deep iconographic
[53:18] tradition around dragons, phoenixes, or
[53:20] tigers. Why the absence
[53:22] >> Rogan style claim?
[53:25] >> I'VE NEVER EVEN SAID IT BEFORE. [ __ ]
[53:27] YOU. HOW DARE YOU? PERPLEXITY.
[53:31] >> That is so funny. It's a Rogan style
[53:34] claim. I think it's on the podcast also.
[53:37] >> It's listening right now
[53:38] >> cuz I it sometimes they'll bring in
[53:40] questions I've asked from like last
[53:41] month and it'll be like are you and I'm
[53:42] like no I didn't. This is a separate
[53:44] search but it's like all locked into the
[53:46] AI history.
[53:47] >> Oh I I asked it a question once and it
[53:50] said as you have previously stated.
[53:52] >> No way.
[53:53] >> I was like whoa
[53:54] >> interesting.
[53:55] >> I was trying to find out like how many
[53:56] views something had gotten and you're
[53:58] like as you've previously stated.
[54:00] >> I told you. Yeah. I was like, you're
[54:02] using me as data? This is why AI is so
[54:06] [ __ ] up. Like, you're trusting me. I'm
[54:08] trusting you. Don't trust me at all. I
[54:10] GET ALL MY information from you,
[54:14] >> dude. That's so weird. I Cuz you wonder
[54:17] cuz it's not like, you know, okay,
[54:18] there's no mention of ducks. I get it
[54:20] cuz there's ducks everywhere. Who cares,
[54:22] right? Like, so why do we write about
[54:23] them? But it's not something like that.
[54:25] Aandas were never so abundant that it
[54:27] was not worth talking about.
[54:29] >> Yeah. see if where this theor who
[54:31] invented this theory that they were
[54:33] engineered to eat bamboo.
[54:35] >> So who who did this engineering in this
[54:37] theory?
[54:38] >> Well, that's a question like who did
[54:39] dogs, right? Why do we have dogs, right?
[54:42] Which is really weird. You know, why why
[54:44] I have a dog. He's a King Charles
[54:46] Cavalier.
[54:47] >> You know those little I do. They're very
[54:49] adorable.
[54:50] >> He's so cute. I love him to death. But
[54:53] he and he's made an appearance on the
[54:54] podcast.
[54:55] >> Oh, nice. Um he's uh the furthest thing
[54:58] from a wolf. Like as far as we've taken
[55:00] a wolf Yeah. to make it so [ __ ]
[55:02] adorable and cute. But that is what it
[55:05] is. That was at one point in time a
[55:08] wolf. And somehow or another we
[55:09] engineered it down to a dog that's
[55:12] adorable and just wants to cuddle with
[55:13] you and sit in your lap and play
[55:14] >> and weighs 25 pounds.
[55:16] >> So what happened and how did we do that?
[55:18] And could you do that with a bear? And
[55:20] could you get a bear then take take that
[55:22] bear and make it something? I think it's
[55:25] the only bear that's a true herbivore as
[55:28] well.
[55:29] >> Yeah, I think that's correct. Yeah, true
[55:31] bear. Yeah.
[55:32] >> Weird. So, what have we done? Their
[55:33] digestive tract. We changed
[55:35] >> Yeah.
[55:36] >> And they're require like it's like
[55:38] koalas. I think they only eat
[55:40] eucalyptus.
[55:41] >> That's right. Yep.
[55:42] >> [ __ ] weird.
[55:43] >> Bizarre. Also has no nutritional value
[55:46] and you probably know this makes them
[55:47] like high basically. So I was looking up
[55:49] who who did it and started going on the
[55:50] thing that it's not no one is known for
[55:52] the theory it's because they're actually
[55:55] carnivores.
[55:56] >> Oh, they're a tax. Oh, so so it's
[55:58] koalas, I think, are the ones that are
[56:00] pure herbivores.
[56:02] >> They definitely are, but they're not
[56:03] bears at all. They're marsupial. They
[56:05] just call them koala bears.
[56:07] >> I see. So
[56:07] >> when they say they are taxonomic
[56:09] carnivores, that means taxonomically
[56:11] they're in the order carnivora, if that
[56:13] makes sense. So,
[56:14] >> but it says with a short digestive tract
[56:16] and gut microbiomes of a meat eater.
[56:18] >> Yeah.
[56:19] >> Yeah. It's interesting.
[56:20] >> So, they're vegans,
[56:21] >> but you could selectively breed for
[56:23] anything to some degree if you had
[56:25] enough time.
[56:25] >> But look, but that's the other thing.
[56:27] Like, why are they so cute?
[56:29] >> That because they're so much cuter than
[56:32] any other bear by far. Like that face
[56:34] even with the teeth out like a
[56:36] >> buddy. They also have the best PR
[56:39] campaign in history. Like they're
[56:41] they're the dumbest animals in the
[56:42] world. You know this, right?
[56:44] >> Really?
[56:44] >> Oh my god. I don't know if that's the
[56:45] right terminology, but like you can hand
[56:48] a panda an apple and it will hand you
[56:50] its baby.
[56:52] >> I'm not joking, dude. You can find
[56:53] videos of this.
[56:54] >> Well, isn't that more evidence that it's
[56:56] raised, that it's been engineered
[56:58] because it doesn't have the instincts
[57:00] that a wild animal would have?
[57:01] >> Dude, their parental instincts are
[57:03] bonkers. Bonkers. Like, they will drop
[57:05] their baby and go for an apple. That's
[57:07] how zookeepers take their babies away.
[57:09] It's Dude, it's it's like these guys are
[57:12] trying to go extinct. I swear to God,
[57:13] it's insane.
[57:14] >> So, where did the theory come from? See
[57:17] if you can find out where the theory
[57:18] came from. That they were engineered to
[57:20] eat bamboo.
[57:21] >> That's why I asked that exact question.
[57:23] It says it's just uh
[57:24] >> it just started showing up on my
[57:25] Instagram about 3 months ago.
[57:27] >> Huh, dude. Instagram. You never know
[57:29] what you're going to get.
[57:30] >> Of course. But that's what's fun. Like,
[57:33] as long as you don't buy into it,
[57:35] >> dude. The problem is even like me and
[57:37] what I do as a biologist, I can I mean
[57:40] I'd say 90% I can tell, but there's a
[57:42] 10% where I can't tell if it's AI or
[57:44] real or and I'm looking at it going,
[57:47] "Well, that behavior is wrong, so it has
[57:49] to be AI." But it's crazy what's going
[57:51] on in like the animal space with the AI
[57:54] mockups. Now, I watched one today where
[57:57] it was a wilderbeast that a leopard had
[57:59] jumped on its back and the wilderbeast
[58:01] jumped into the water and the crocodiles
[58:04] killed the leopard on its back and then
[58:06] the wilderbeast got away.
[58:07] >> Totally fake.
[58:08] >> It has to be.
[58:09] >> Sounds fake. I mean, it sounds insane.
[58:11] >> Wilderbeast is smart all of a sudden. So
[58:13] smart that it figured out all I have to
[58:15] do is get to those crocs and the crops
[58:18] >> also like you're going to run. I don't
[58:20] like you're going to give yourself more
[58:22] problems,
[58:22] >> right? By going into the water. Yeah.
[58:25] >> By the way, multiple crocodiles. So, why
[58:26] wouldn't they just eat you too?
[58:28] >> They would. They'd just kill everybody.
[58:29] >> Kill everybody. Both of you are
[58:31] compromised. It's not going to just grab
[58:33] the leopard on your back. It's going to
[58:34] grab you, too, cuz you can't get away.
[58:36] >> Anything they can get. Yeah. Yeah. No.
[58:38] So, it's fake. It's crazy.
[58:39] >> But it was also fun.
[58:40] >> Yeah. Exactly. It's also
[58:42] >> fun in a different video, but Yeah. Here
[58:44] it is right here.
[58:45] >> Yeah. Oh, so this is a
[58:47] >> this is a longer cut of the video,
[58:49] >> but you can see by like the saturation
[58:51] of the leopard's a little fake
[58:52] >> and like the way the claws are kind of
[58:54] like
[58:55] >> there's no claws. It's almost like
[58:56] softball pawing it. Do you know what I
[58:58] mean?
[58:58] >> Right. Right. Look how he's hanging on.
[59:00] >> This could be a video of a real
[59:01] wilderbeast getting eaten by a croc and
[59:03] they just added the leopard to the back.
[59:04] That very well.
[59:05] >> It's pretty It's pretty amazing. Look
[59:09] fake.
[59:10] >> No, bro. That's real.
[59:12] >> Guys, stop.
[59:14] >> This is different. This one's different
[59:15] because this one the will also by the
[59:17] way the wilderbeast is doing way too
[59:19] well in that struggle. Yes.
[59:20] >> Cuz when the crocodiles do get wer beast
[59:22] they get them quick.
[59:23] >> The leopard got on this one.
[59:25] >> Someone put some time into this.
[59:27] >> Yeah. When the crocs get a hold of
[59:29] something is really it's a wrap.
[59:31] >> Dude, I just
[59:32] >> There's not much of a struggle.
[59:33] >> I just did I'm probably not supposed to
[59:34] talk about this yet, but I just did this
[59:36] show for Discovery that I've been
[59:37] working on for a couple years where uh
[59:40] basically I put myself in the
[59:41] perspective of Prey. So, I would have
[59:43] been in the perspective of that
[59:44] wilderbeast through engineering and
[59:46] doing all these like builds and stuff
[59:47] like that. And I lowered myself into a
[59:50] pond of crocodiles. It was insane. I had
[59:53] a cage around me. So, a very small cage.
[59:55] It was basically a coffin.
[59:57] >> Made out of what though? What's a cage
[59:58] made out of?
[59:59] >> Whatever the guys in the workshop could
[60:00] find. I think steel.
[60:02] >> Did they try it out first?
[60:03] >> No. I mean, we tested it with nothing in
[60:05] it and we're like, "Okay, this is
[60:06] working. I can send it to Jamie. I have
[60:08] it on my phone." But it was uh
[60:09] >> Send it to Jamie.
[60:10] >> Okay. Dude, it was crazy.
[60:12] It was not.
[60:13] >> Why would you do that?
[60:15] >> I don't know, man.
[60:16] >> Well, it's like those shark cages, man.
[60:18] Those things don't hold up. You've seen
[60:20] that before, right?
[60:20] >> Oh, yeah. Where they go straight through
[60:22] the shark cage. Yeah.
[60:23] >> Yeah. It's craziness. It's absolute
[60:25] craziness. I'll f Here we go,
[60:28] >> dude. We did. I don't know why I did Oh,
[60:30] you know what, Jamie? Go on the If you
[60:31] don't mind, go on the Discovery
[60:32] Instagram. I think it's there. Good.
[60:34] Good luck finding it. I can send you
[60:36] something in the meantime. But, um, I
[60:37] think they posted like a short teaser of
[60:39] it. It was nuts, though. So, I'm in this
[60:42] little cage. We rigged up these cables.
[60:44] Just
[60:44] >> Were you wearing scuba gear or what?
[60:46] >> So, I had a scuba tank with me in case
[60:48] the thing broke and I ended up on the
[60:49] bottom.
[60:52] >> Sounds dumber out loud.
[60:53] >> And then you have so much oxygen before
[60:54] they can get you out.
[60:55] >> 30 minutes. 30 minutes before
[60:57] >> Oh, god, dude.
[60:57] >> And I was I was talking to our guy, so
[60:59] you know, is a TV production, so there's
[61:01] like stunt coordinators and all this
[61:02] stuff. And I was like, "So, okay, cable
[61:04] snaps. I go down. I grab the regulator.
[61:06] I've got 30 minutes to 40 minutes in my
[61:08] tank. Then what?" He's like, "Oh, well,
[61:09] I have this grappling hook. We'll throw
[61:11] it, hook it with the grappling hook, and
[61:12] pull it out. I'm like, "Bro, what if you
[61:14] hit a log?" He's like, "Hadn't thought
[61:16] about that." I'm like, "How you getting
[61:18] me out of here?" This thing,
[61:19] >> yeah, that easily could take more than
[61:21] 30 minutes.
[61:21] >> Of course, it could take more than 30
[61:23] minutes.
[61:23] >> So, you might have to get out and swim.
[61:26] >> Can you get out?
[61:26] >> I couldn't. I locked myself into the
[61:28] cage. There was no getting out.
[61:30] >> You did this?
[61:30] >> Yeah, it was pretty dumb. It was fun. It
[61:32] was cool, though, because it was such a
[61:34] unique perspective. But I told my wife
[61:36] when I got home from that one, I was
[61:37] like, "Yeah, I think this is my last
[61:38] year doing this shit." Like, It's
[61:40] getting too too much now.
[61:42] >> But that's the thing about those kind of
[61:43] shows. It's like it's not enough to just
[61:46] see the animals. You have to do
[61:48] something that makes it spectacular
[61:49] enough. Get people to tune in. Like that
[61:51] polar bear one where the guy got in that
[61:53] big plexiglass box
[61:54] >> that literally inspired the whole
[61:55] series. I swear to God.
[61:58] >> I hate that video.
[61:59] >> It's crazy.
[61:59] >> I mean, I've watched it a hundred times.
[62:01] I don't hate it, but I hate the idea of
[62:03] it because
[62:04] >> it just shows you how predatory polar
[62:06] bears are and how they don't give a
[62:08] [ __ ] It's just trying to get at that
[62:10] guy.
[62:10] >> Isn't it crazy?
[62:12] >> Yeah. It's gnarly.
[62:13] >> I mean, just actively hunting him. Yeah.
[62:15] >> It's so different than the other bears,
[62:17] which like if you get killed by a
[62:19] grizzly generally, it's like you [ __ ]
[62:21] up.
[62:21] >> Yeah.
[62:22] >> Like you stumbled upon one that's older.
[62:25] Yeah. Or you startled it or you know,
[62:27] you zigg when you should have zagged.
[62:29] >> Have you seen the city in Russia, the
[62:31] abandoned island city where the polar
[62:33] bears have taken over?
[62:34] >> No.
[62:35] >> Oh, you got to see this. It's
[62:37] incredible. I've seen videos of Russia
[62:39] of people like getting chased by polar
[62:41] bears in their town.
[62:42] >> Oh yeah. Yeah. There's like the one
[62:43] where the guy jumps on the snowmobile
[62:45] and like runs after him and stuff.
[62:46] >> Barely gets away.
[62:47] >> There's a whole area in the Bearing Sea
[62:49] that was a I want to say a former mining
[62:51] town or maybe fishing town and people
[62:53] moved out cuz it collapsed for whatever
[62:54] reason. This place, look at this. And
[62:56] the polar bears have just moved into
[62:58] town.
[62:59] >> Oh, they're living in the house.
[63:00] >> They're living in the house. Look at
[63:02] this. There's just like
[63:03] >> Oh, they they took it over as a den.
[63:05] >> Completely took it over.
[63:06] >> Wow. How cool is this?
[63:08] >> That's amazing.
[63:09] >> They're just fully moved in, like living
[63:11] in the house. That's a drone shop, but
[63:13] they're This was not AI. This was legit.
[63:15] >> They're so cool looking.
[63:16] >> Oh, they're the coolest.
[63:17] >> They're so interesting.
[63:19] >> How amazing is that, though? Imagine
[63:21] like imagine you're out on a boat and
[63:23] you're like, "Oh, man. We've been
[63:24] sailing for 3 weeks. Oh, look, there's
[63:25] like a little village. Let's pop in
[63:27] there for a day."
[63:28] >> That'd be a cool movie.
[63:30] >> Yeah, that would be a good movie.
[63:32] >> A bunch of people like, "Oh, we found a
[63:33] village. Let's go there." You like head
[63:35] in and turn, you know, like set up and
[63:36] the and then all of a sudden you're
[63:38] surrounded.
[63:38] >> Yeah. It's all polar bear. You're like,
[63:40] "Why is there so much [ __ ] in this
[63:41] house?"
[63:43] >> Cuz they probably just [ __ ] right in the
[63:45] house.
[63:45] >> So they're pawing at the drones. Yeah.
[63:47] >> Wow. Look how cool. They're hanging out
[63:49] the window like, "Hey, Tom."
[63:51] >> Dude, I
[63:52] >> Come on over. Have a drink.
[63:54] >> You could put me in the glass box on
[63:55] this island. This looks so cool.
[63:57] >> It is so cool. They're They're an
[63:58] amazing animal.
[63:59] >> They really are.
[64:00] >> But they're they're so weird. They're so
[64:03] long, too.
[64:04] >> I went and did a a sort of a trek with
[64:06] them.
[64:07] >> Where are they getting food on that
[64:08] island if they're the only ones there?
[64:09] >> Oh, well, they're the only ones there,
[64:11] but it's not. They're seals and all
[64:13] kinds of other [ __ ] They'll be hunting
[64:14] all the marine mammals in the area.
[64:17] >> Yeah, they're they're the cleanup crew.
[64:18] >> And they swim huge distances.
[64:20] >> Oh, yeah, man.
[64:21] >> A couple have turned up in Iceland. Did
[64:23] you know that?
[64:23] >> What?
[64:24] >> Yeah, there's I think two or three cases
[64:26] of polar bears that have swam from
[64:28] Greenland to Iceland and made it.
[64:29] >> How far is that?
[64:30] >> I'm not sure, but it's not close.
[64:32] Obviously.
[64:33] >> Took the Vikings like a 100 years to do
[64:35] it. Yeah.
[64:36] >> That's crazy.
[64:37] >> Yeah. And then
[64:38] >> you swim that far.
[64:39] >> 200 miles.
[64:40] >> 200 miles.
[64:41] >> Wow.
[64:42] >> Are you Hopefully this isn't a myth. Are
[64:43] you seeing
[64:44] >> this one says it was shot dead after it
[64:45] did it in 2008?
[64:47] >> Yeah. And it swam across, right?
[64:49] >> Yeah. I mean, they get off. They don't
[64:51] want
[64:52] >> 100 miles.
[64:53] >> How crazy is that? Just take a swim one
[64:56] day and end up colonizing an entirely
[64:58] new place.
[64:58] >> So, it's like the David Gogggins of
[65:00] polar bears. says, "Bro, I can make it."
[65:03] >> Feel no pain.
[65:04] >> Operation to kill the animals captured
[65:05] on film. Let's [ __ ] go.
[65:08] >> Video might not.
[65:08] >> Let's [ __ ] go. Let's see that video.
[65:11] >> I got an error. 404 bummer.
[65:14] >> Yeah, but isn't that crazy? 200 mile
[65:16] swim as a bear.
[65:18] >> Yeah, this says it might have well
[65:20] jumped off of just a piece of ice
[65:21] somewhere. So, it could have, you know,
[65:22] got a little float on,
[65:23] >> right? It could have hung out for a
[65:24] little bit
[65:25] >> to shore. But still, even 50 miles,
[65:26] >> that's pretty far. Well, they can last
[65:29] so long with the fat that's on their
[65:31] body.
[65:31] >> And they like snooze float. Have you
[65:33] seen that?
[65:34] >> They'll like they won't just like
[65:35] actively swim. They'll like kind of like
[65:37] snooze float in between hunting.
[65:40] >> Oh,
[65:40] >> it's kind of amazing cuz in the winter
[65:42] they have so much fat, you know, that or
[65:43] uh yeah, in the winter stored up getting
[65:46] ready to chill because they don't eat as
[65:47] much during the summer. Am I getting
[65:48] this right? I think so. Right.
[65:50] >> Um that they they like Yeah, you see
[65:52] them like snooze floating in the ocean.
[65:55] Well, they eat a lot in the summer to
[65:56] get ready for the winter, right?
[65:59] >> Uh, their meta I know they eat a lot in
[66:01] midsummer. They don't eat a lot. It's
[66:03] too hot for them to actively hunt.
[66:05] >> I know that. Um,
[66:06] >> how hot is it too hot for them to
[66:08] actively hunt?
[66:08] >> I went to Manitoba, Canada to go see
[66:11] them on foot and it was like 75° at the
[66:14] height of the day or maybe 70. And uh uh
[66:18] yeah, they uh they wouldn't be hunting.
[66:20] >> Polar bears were frequently tamed during
[66:22] the Middle Ages. What?
[66:24] says, "No bear has been captured alive
[66:26] in Iceland." Oh, but since then,
[66:29] receding North Pole is diminishing their
[66:31] hunting and mating grounds and
[66:32] jeopardizing their survival.
[66:34] >> Oldest sighting in Iceland was 890.
[66:37] >> Whoa.
[66:38] >> 16 years after the first people got
[66:39] there. But what's crazy if you what's
[66:42] crazy if you think about that is all it
[66:44] would take
[66:45] >> if people weren't there
[66:47] >> is two polar bears over the course of
[66:49] polar bears lifetime to wash up on the
[66:52] island and then you have a population of
[66:53] polar bears there right
[66:54] >> do you know what I mean the male swims
[66:56] there 5 years later the female swims
[66:58] there boom there's a population of polar
[67:00] bears plenty of food you know
[67:02] >> what an adventurous female it would have
[67:04] to be
[67:04] >> true
[67:05] >> 1252 Henry III took delivery of a white
[67:07] bear sent to him as a gift from King
[67:10] Hakan IVth of Norway. He decided to keep
[67:13] it in a Tower of London. The bear was
[67:15] either too big or too exciting to be
[67:17] taken to Oxfordshire where there had
[67:20] been a royal managerie at Woodstock
[67:22] since Harry the Henry the first reign.
[67:26] What's more, it needed to fish. So, the
[67:28] beast was sent to the tower, and from
[67:30] what we could tell, it was well looked
[67:32] out for, although it had a muzzle and a
[67:33] chain to wear while on land. The
[67:36] sheriffs of London were obliged to lay
[67:37] out more than a shilling a week for its
[67:40] upkeep, which uh added up over a year to
[67:43] roughly the expected income of a night.
[67:45] >> What a wild story.
[67:46] >> They had no guns to stop him. What the
[67:48] hell would you do to him?
[67:49] >> Bows and arrows, I guess, and spears.
[67:51] The bear had a long swimming leash. The
[67:54] the man wore waterproof clothes. What?
[67:59] The keeper. So, it had a keeper. The
[68:02] bear came with a Norwegian keeper. And
[68:04] the keeper was allowed to lead fishing
[68:05] trips into tames. How do you say that?
[68:08] Thes tames
[68:10] >> which uh the tower sat. The men wore
[68:13] waterproof clothes again built to the
[68:15] crown. The bear had a long swimming
[68:17] leash.
[68:18] >> There were salmon in the tames in those
[68:20] days. So while being in London was
[68:23] probably not half so pleasing the bear
[68:24] sitting on an ice flow in Arctic Circle,
[68:27] it sure beat working.
[68:28] >> The way this guy wrote this is
[68:30] hilarious. by the way.
[68:31] >> Yeah,
[68:32] >> they uh do you know what a sloth bear
[68:33] is?
[68:34] >> Yeah.
[68:34] >> Mean as anything.
[68:35] >> Yeah, there's they're in Japan, right?
[68:37] >> Uh India, India and into Nepal in that
[68:40] area. Um amazing. They're like a perfect
[68:42] example of not the size of the dog in
[68:44] the fight, but the fight in the dog cuz
[68:45] they're not a very big bear, but they
[68:47] will take on tigers and everything else.
[68:49] They um a certain group I don't know the
[68:52] name of them a tribe I think in India
[68:54] used to capture sloth bears and they'd
[68:56] put a a ring in its nose like like a
[68:58] nose ring and then this barbaric it
[69:01] doesn't happen anymore but then they
[69:03] would take the bear onto the street as a
[69:04] street performer. I just read about this
[69:06] and they would light a fire and put like
[69:08] a big sheet metal over it and then walk
[69:11] the sloth bear onto it so the bear would
[69:13] dance cuz its feet were burning. Yeah.
[69:16] Um and uh yeah they called it the
[69:18] dancing bears I guess I I guess it was
[69:20] in Nepal
[69:21] >> and uh yeah was a horrific thing that
[69:23] people used to do.
[69:24] >> So rude.
[69:25] >> Imagine doing that though and being like
[69:26] oh this will be this will be worth a
[69:28] shilling or two like well bear baiting
[69:31] they used to do that with dogs. They
[69:33] used to have a chained up bear and they
[69:34] would allow dogs to fight the bear.
[69:36] >> Yeah it's crazy.
[69:37] >> They did that with bulls.
[69:38] >> Yeah.
[69:38] >> You know they'd have a chained up bull
[69:40] and have
[69:42] >> dogs attack the bull.
[69:43] >> Yeah. They used in South Africa in the
[69:45] early colonial days, they used to do it
[69:47] with baboons and let the dogs and the
[69:49] baboons fight and bet money on it. Yeah,
[69:51] >> people are so gross.
[69:52] >> It's crazy that it's it. But, you know,
[69:55] like I always have this weird stance. Do
[69:57] I agree with any of it? Of course not.
[69:58] But we wouldn't be where we were and
[70:00] care about wildlife and conservation if
[70:02] we hadn't made some of those mistakes.
[70:04] >> Is that what that is? A mistake? I mean,
[70:06] it's also if you hadn't seen half of
[70:09] your friends get cut in half by swords,
[70:12] you're probably the like your
[70:13] understanding of the value of life is
[70:15] probably completely distorted.
[70:16] >> Completely. Yeah.
[70:17] >> You're living in a horrific time.
[70:19] Everyone's dying of the plague.
[70:21] >> Violence is entertainment, right?
[70:22] >> Do you know what I mean? Like that is
[70:24] something to do. And life value is
[70:25] incredibly low. Life comes and goes.
[70:28] >> The coliseum was when when was that?
[70:30] >> I don't know. I should, but I don't. I
[70:32] think it was 2,000 plus years ago some
[70:35] somewhere around there when they first
[70:36] started having these crazy games there.
[70:39] >> Do you know they used to flood the
[70:40] coliseum and do ship battles and things?
[70:42] >> I went there a few years back and we
[70:44] went on a tour.
[70:44] >> Was it cool?
[70:45] >> Oh, it was amazing.
[70:46] >> But it's also like you stand there and
[70:47] you you try to take it in. Like when I
[70:49] go to these ancient places, I try to
[70:51] just like sit and just try to imagine
[70:55] like when you're actually It's one thing
[70:57] to imagine when you're looking at a
[70:58] photograph or a video, but when you're
[70:59] actually in the spot.
[71:01] >> Yeah. You know, like when you're in
[71:02] Athens Yeah. and you like standing at
[71:05] the Parthonon, you're like, "Okay, what
[71:07] the [ __ ] was this like?"
[71:08] >> Yeah.
[71:09] >> What was this like?
[71:10] >> And that was like the center of
[71:12] everything.
[71:13] >> Everything. Democracy.
[71:14] >> Exactly.
[71:15] >> Yeah. Exactly.
[71:16] >> And also drugs. Those guys were high as
[71:18] [ __ ] They were all doing drugs cuz we
[71:20] went to Ulysus. Elusis. Elusus rather.
[71:23] And uh that that's the place where they
[71:25] had the Illusinian mystery schools and
[71:27] they would people would go on this trek
[71:29] where they wouldn't eat and they would
[71:30] walk from Athens and they they would
[71:33] have these psychedelic rituals and you
[71:35] know you're in this place where they did
[71:37] it. You could like feel it. It's weird.
[71:39] >> Well, I mean obviously not synthetic,
[71:40] but were they was it just mushrooms?
[71:42] What were what were these psychedelics?
[71:44] >> Totally. No, but they have had residue
[71:48] from some of these clay pots that had
[71:50] urgot in it.
[71:51] >> What's urgot? So urgot is a fungus that
[71:53] has a very similar psy uh psychoactive
[71:56] effect as LSD.
[71:58] >> Oh, interesting.
[71:58] >> It's uh I think it has lysurgic acid in
[72:01] it.
[72:02] >> Like what? Let's find out what the
[72:04] >> what what what actually it also kills
[72:06] people. There's been cases of urgot
[72:08] poisoning through wheat.
[72:11] >> People have died and they also think
[72:12] it's connected to the Salem witch
[72:14] trials.
[72:15] >> Oh. Driving people crazy. And oh
[72:18] >> Salem witch trials. I don't know if this
[72:20] has been proven or if this is just a
[72:21] theory, but the idea is that if you have
[72:23] an early frost and that some of the
[72:26] wheat survives, but the wheat can have
[72:29] this fungus on it that grows urgot. So
[72:31] this this urgot fungus
[72:33] >> and so you're eating this wheat and
[72:35] you're making beer out of it and like
[72:37] everybody's tripping balls. They think
[72:38] everybody's a [ __ ] witch.
[72:41] Like accidental acid.
[72:43] >> That's hilarious.
[72:44] >> Probably like, man, this beer is really
[72:46] good,
[72:46] >> right? until there's a witch and then
[72:48] you're like, "Man, this beer's bad."
[72:50] >> Well, there's also I mean, imagine,
[72:51] first of all, you've got a bunch of
[72:52] crazy superstitions and people are
[72:54] afraid of everything already cuz you
[72:56] don't know anything about science.
[72:58] >> You don't understand a thing. So,
[72:59] there's a lot of fears. And then there's
[73:01] a lot of people that claim to be the
[73:02] wise people of the of the town and they
[73:04] tell you crazy stories about witches and
[73:06] you're like, "Oh, witches are real."
[73:07] >> Yep. Oh, for sure. So lysurgic acid uh
[73:12] amides
[73:13] um ergoetrine
[73:17] all these share uh lysurgic acid erglene
[73:21] core which is why LSD semiynthesized
[73:25] from lysurgic acid is chemically related
[73:27] to urgot compounds
[73:29] >> and all of this comes from that mold on
[73:31] the wheat.
[73:32] >> Wasn't there a time where they they did
[73:34] it to people on purpose in France? I
[73:38] feel like this might have been like a
[73:40] CIA thing.
[73:42] >> See if you can find that story.
[73:43] >> Urgot or LSD.
[73:44] >> Urgot.
[73:45] >> I think they they they
[73:48] because I think they were experimenting
[73:50] on the effects of Urgot and I think they
[73:53] like picked a town and said, "Let's
[73:55] see."
[73:56] >> Cuz we know they've done that before. We
[73:58] We definitely know they've like
[73:59] >> and just hit whole places.
[74:00] >> Yeah. Let's see. Let's see. Yeah. Why
[74:02] not? Like think about like uh what we
[74:05] found out during MK Ultra that the CIA
[74:07] was running brothel and they would give
[74:10] the John's LSD. It was literally called
[74:13] Operation Midnight Climax.
[74:15] >> And so what they would do is they would
[74:16] have these two-way mirrors set up. This
[74:18] is proven. This guy named Jolly West who
[74:20] was the head of the MK Ultra, okay?
[74:22] >> Who would they would say, "Let's find
[74:23] out what happens. You give people acid.
[74:25] What's the best way?" Well, you get a
[74:27] bunch of people and do it to them in a
[74:28] way that, you know, totally unethically,
[74:30] but this is a way they're not going to
[74:32] tell that you did it to them because
[74:33] they went to a [ __ ] house. Like, no
[74:34] one's going to admit they went to a
[74:35] [ __ ] house. So, you get these guys,
[74:37] they go to the get to prostitute. The
[74:39] prostitute's like, "Would you like a
[74:40] drink?" Like, "Oh, I'd love a drink."
[74:43] >> Hard day at a [ __ ] Hard day at work
[74:45] here. The guy sits down. He's thinking,
[74:46] "I'm going to [ __ ] This is going to be
[74:48] great."
[74:49] >> Next thing, the [ __ ] walls are
[74:51] broken. Oh my god.
[74:52] >> The candles talking to him. Did you find
[74:55] anything about the French thing?
[74:57] >> Here it is. I likely think of the
[74:59] infamous St. Espri cursed bread incident
[75:03] of 1951. Long-running allegation that it
[75:06] wasn't Urgot at all, but a secret CIA,
[75:08] US Army LSD experiment. What happened in
[75:12] Pont St. Espri, this small town in
[75:15] southern France. Hundreds of residents
[75:16] suddenly suffered violent
[75:18] hallucinations, convulsions, insomnia,
[75:21] and psychotic episodes over several
[75:23] days. 250 people were affected. 50 were
[75:26] committed to asylums. Seven died,
[75:28] including some who leapt from windows
[75:30] convinced they could fly or being chased
[75:32] by snakes and tigers. The official
[75:35] French investigation blamed urgot
[75:37] contaminated ryflour from a local baker.
[75:41] Um, uh, classic erotism, uh, St. Anony's
[75:44] fire. That's uh another case of it. Some
[75:47] later scientists propo or maybe the same
[75:50] story. I don't know. Some later
[75:52] scientists propose alternative culprits.
[75:54] Mercury fungicide, nitrogen tricloride
[75:58] bread bleaching agents or miccotoxins
[76:02] from aspergillis
[76:04] fumigatus.
[76:06] Fumigatus.
[76:07] >> I call [ __ ] on this. This seems like
[76:09] something where they test.
[76:10] >> Yeah.
[76:11] >> Yeah. It seems like a CIA thing. 2009,
[76:14] American investigative journalist HP
[76:17] Alber Alberi Alberelli Jr. uh published
[76:22] a terrible mistake arguing that Pon
[76:24] Espree was actually a covert LSD field
[76:27] test run jointly by CIA's MK yeah MK
[76:32] Ultra programs and the US Army Special
[76:34] Operations Division at Fort Detric with
[76:37] Swiss drug company Sandos who first
[76:39] synthesized LSD allegedly supplying the
[76:42] compound. So his evidence included a
[76:44] declassified CIA document quoting a
[76:48] Sandos representative saying the Pont
[76:51] St. Espri secret is being discussed
[76:55] alongside references to LSD. Oh, they
[76:57] definitely did it.
[76:58] >> Yeah, it sounds way more likely.
[77:00] >> That's way more likely. Uh, a testimony
[77:02] he attributed former CS CIA SOD
[77:05] scientist Frank Olsen, who died in a
[77:08] 1953 fall from a New York City hotel
[77:10] room after being dosed with LSD by his
[77:13] colleagues.
[77:14] >> What a bunch of [ __ ] These guys
[77:16] just doing each other and admitted MK
[77:18] Ultra incident.
[77:20] >> Uh, interviews with former US
[77:22] intelligence officials. Why most
[77:24] historians remain skeptical. Serious
[77:26] push back came quickly. So symptoms
[77:29] don't match LSD. Victims had gang
[77:32] green-like vaso constriction. Weeksl
[77:34] long psychosis and physical necrosis
[77:37] consistent with urgot alkyoids. Not a
[77:40] single acute LSD dose. Interesting. LSD
[77:43] is water soluble and heat sensitive. So
[77:44] baking bread would degrade it. The
[77:46] Sandos cable alberelli
[77:50] cited is ambiguous and predates the
[77:53] incident in some readings. No
[77:55] corroborating documentation has surfaced
[77:56] despite extensive MK Ultra
[77:58] declassification since the 1970s church
[78:01] committee hearings. Yeah. But the
[78:02] problem with that is like one of the one
[78:05] of the reasons why we know about MK
[78:07] Ultra was evidence that they found that
[78:11] had been in storage. So you know when
[78:14] you say like Freedom of Information Act,
[78:16] they don't give you [ __ ]
[78:18] >> They just bait you with a little bit
[78:19] here and there to go, "Oh, okay. We
[78:21] know.
[78:21] >> They just tell you we don't have any
[78:23] evidence. Go [ __ ] yourself. I mean, look
[78:25] how hard it is to get the Epstein files.
[78:27] This is a guy that was alive in 2019,
[78:30] >> right?
[78:30] >> Where there were plenty of records of
[78:32] everything happening.
[78:33] >> Yeah. Exactly. And the internet.
[78:34] >> This This reminds me, do you know about
[78:36] the Lyme disease?
[78:37] >> Uh Oh, yeah.
[78:38] >> You know about this? Like the Plum
[78:40] Island thing? Yeah.
[78:41] >> Seems conspiracy. I I like I'm not a
[78:44] huge conspiracy theorist. This one to me
[78:45] is like a no-brainer.
[78:47] >> Well, it's also People want to say that
[78:49] Lyme disease has existed forever.
[78:52] Absolutely true. Not to the extent that
[78:54] it exists today. Also not as contaminate
[78:58] like not not as is right spreading like
[79:01] crazy like crazy like it's sweeping out
[79:04] west.
[79:04] >> Not only that Plum Island they were
[79:08] absolutely doing gain of function
[79:10] research on ticks and the idea was
[79:14] >> the the reason why they were doing it
[79:16] and this is this is all me what I've
[79:19] read. I don't have any direct
[79:21] information. Yeah. But what they said
[79:23] was what they were doing was engineering
[79:25] ticks with these diseases. So what they
[79:28] could do is they could spray them from
[79:29] planes and they would overwhelm the
[79:32] medical system of any like overwhelm a
[79:34] town, overwhelm their armies. You you
[79:37] you couldn't keep up and it would they
[79:39] wouldn't be able to fight.
[79:40] >> That's right. And it could wipe out food
[79:41] sources. It had like multiple
[79:43] implications.
[79:44] >> Exactly. So now we have these [ __ ]
[79:47] creeps from the World Economic Forum
[79:49] that are talking about the dangers of
[79:51] eating meat, right? And about how people
[79:54] eating meat is what's wrong with the
[79:56] that's why it's accelerating climate
[79:57] change. All horseshit. But they're
[79:59] saying it and they're saying that is
[80:01] almost a moral obligation to create a
[80:03] tick or to create more ticks that would
[80:07] have this alpha gal in them.
[80:09] >> The one that makes you allergic to meat.
[80:10] >> Yes.
[80:11] >> So they're saying that they want more of
[80:13] that. Yes, this guy was talking about
[80:16] not only that, I have a buddy who has
[80:18] it. My friend Evan
[80:19] >> from Black Rifle Coffee. He's talking
[80:20] about
[80:20] >> Oh, yeah. I know Evan. Yeah.
[80:22] >> One of my best friends. Love him to
[80:23] death. Evan has it bad. And it [ __ ] him
[80:27] up. It's not as simple as you're he's
[80:30] allergic to red meat. Like, it [ __ ] up
[80:32] all of his blood work. His his body's a
[80:34] mess.
[80:35] >> And he picked it up hiking and hunting.
[80:37] >> He picked it up. He got a tick and he
[80:39] didn't know. And he got he got bit. Um,
[80:41] my friend Burr Kresser, his wife's
[80:44] family, half of them have this [ __ ]
[80:46] problem. No way. Yeah. Tennessee, East
[80:49] Coast. This, uh, it's the Texas Lonear
[80:53] T. It's a Lonear tick, it's called, not
[80:54] the Texas Lone Star, but this one tick
[80:57] >> carries this thing and they think that
[80:59] that might perhaps be genetically
[81:01] engineered as well.
[81:02] >> It's crazy
[81:02] >> because there was no alpha gal problem.
[81:05] No, 30, 40 years ago. It just didn't
[81:07] exist. Now all of a sudden it's like
[81:08] ubiquitous. It's allwhere. It's
[81:10] spreading, too. It's Yeah, it's crazy. I
[81:12] I never used to think twice about
[81:14] getting a tick. I get ticks all the time
[81:15] hiking around doing the stuff I do. I
[81:17] never used to think twice about Now I'm
[81:19] terrified of I love red meat. I'm
[81:21] terrified of it now.
[81:22] >> It's not just the red meat. The Lyme
[81:23] disease is [ __ ] devastating. Lime
[81:25] disease.
[81:26] >> If you don't catch it early,
[81:27] >> it can [ __ ] with you the rest of your
[81:28] life.
[81:29] >> Uhhuh. Yeah. I I know multiple people
[81:30] that have it, including um Jim Miller,
[81:32] guy who fights in the UFC. He had it
[81:34] really bad. Um, and it [ __ ] up his
[81:36] career for quite a while, but he got his
[81:38] diet under wraps and he figured out like
[81:42] what to eat, what not to eat, and now
[81:44] he's fine.
[81:44] >> Do you know about some of those other
[81:46] animal warfare things they used to do?
[81:48] Like the the um spy tech they put in
[81:51] city cats. Do you know about this?
[81:53] >> No.
[81:54] >> Oh, dude, there's some amazing ones.
[81:55] >> Spy tech and cats.
[81:57] >> So, during World War II, uh Jamie would
[81:59] have to confirm what city this was in.
[82:01] Uh, I believe it was the Russians used
[82:02] to put little hearing devices in street
[82:04] cats because because the the the Brits
[82:08] would go and meet in back alleys and
[82:10] have meetings, but there were feral cats
[82:11] everywhere. So, they'd have all these
[82:13] cats running around with these wires in
[82:14] their brains and stuff and these little
[82:16] little Yeah. Acoustic kitties. That's
[82:18] it. The CIA. Dude, how crazy is this?
[82:22] Acoustic Kitty was a Central
[82:24] Intelligence Agency project launched by
[82:26] the Directorate of Science and
[82:28] Technology in the late 1960s. In the
[82:31] 1960s, intended to use cats to spy on
[82:33] the Kremlin in Soviet embassies.
[82:36] >> In an hourong procedure, a veterary
[82:37] surgeon implanted a microphone in the
[82:39] cat's ear canal and a small radio
[82:42] transmitter at the base of its skull and
[82:43] a thin wire into its fur.
[82:45] >> OH MY GOD,
[82:46] >> HOW CRAZY. IMAGINE THAT. You're just
[82:47] like having a secret meeting in a back
[82:49] cove, you know, back alley, and there's
[82:51] a cat there just live streaming your
[82:54] conversation to the CIA.
[82:55] >> Go back up a little bit here. It says,
[82:57] "Do the cat sense of hunger had to be
[82:59] addressed in another operation."
[83:02] What interesting
[83:05] first acoustic kitty mission was an eve
[83:07] drop on two men in a park outside the
[83:09] Soviet embassy in Washington DC. The cat
[83:11] was released nearby, but was hit and
[83:13] allegedly killed by a taxi almost
[83:15] immediately. was probably the thing was
[83:17] all [ __ ] up. I probably couldn't get
[83:19] out. It's like what IS IN MY HEAD? THEY
[83:21] PUT A WIRE IN MY HEAD. SCHIZOPHRENIC
[83:23] CAT.
[83:24] >> UH,
[83:25] >> HOWEVER, this is disputed in 2013 by
[83:27] Robert Wallace, a former director of the
[83:29] Office of Technical Service, who said
[83:31] the project was abandoned due to the
[83:33] difficulty of training the cat to behave
[83:35] as required and that the equipment was
[83:37] taken out of the cat. The cat was
[83:38] resoneed for a second time and lived for
[83:40] a long and happy life afterwards. Lies.
[83:44] You [ __ ] killed that cat. It got hit
[83:46] by a taxi, but it was fine. And they
[83:48] took it out of its head.
[83:50] >> But I mean, more than one cat, I'm sure.
[83:51] But the but this idea, the equipment was
[83:53] taken out of the cat. The [ __ ] you did
[83:56] that? You you spent money taking the
[83:58] equipment out. Did you really? Or did
[84:00] you just kill the cat?
[84:02] >> [ __ ] [ __ ]
[84:03] >> Dude, there's a few of these. And the
[84:04] the bats that would light fires. Do you
[84:07] know about those ones?
[84:08] >> Hold up. The military did not give up on
[84:10] its use of animals as spies. As in 2006,
[84:13] the Pentagon requested the creation of a
[84:15] cyborg cyborg insects for use in
[84:17] espionage. The request was made by
[84:21] [ __ ] DARPA, of course. Y
[84:23] >> uh of the Pentagon. Scientists at Cal
[84:25] Berkeley responded by creating a
[84:27] controllable cyborg beetle in October of
[84:30] 2009.
[84:32] >> What?
[84:32] >> There's a there's a cockroach under your
[84:34] carpet here listening to us somewhere
[84:36] right now.
[84:37] >> They're not going to hear anything other
[84:38] than the stuff we already talk about.
[84:40] >> Yeah, true, true. The wonderful thing
[84:41] about having such a [ __ ] show is
[84:44] like
[84:44] >> who can't just say it ALL ANYWAY.
[84:46] >> YEAH.
[84:47] >> WHOA. Look at this.
[84:48] >> Look at this.
[84:49] >> Look at this. Is a [ __ ] battery in
[84:50] the beetle. That's
[84:52] >> badass. Look at the microchip on its
[84:54] back.
[84:54] >> It's amazing that the beetle can live
[84:56] through all this.
[84:56] >> Yeah. It's pretty amazing.
[84:58] >> That's wild.
[85:01] >> Wow.
[85:01] >> And and I and I guess as these things
[85:03] have gotten smaller and smaller as chips
[85:05] and battery technologies increased,
[85:07] >> of course. Think of think of your cell
[85:09] phone in09 compared to now.
[85:11] >> Right. Right. [ __ ] wild, man.
[85:15] >> Yeah. There were a few of these there.
[85:16] They used to light bats on fire and then
[85:18] they'd send them to roost and then
[85:20] they'd burn down whole towns and things
[85:21] like that. That's going back even Dude,
[85:23] there's spy pigeons where they put
[85:25] cameras. Like there's a there's a
[85:27] handful of these that the CIA tried.
[85:28] >> Well, how about what they did with
[85:29] dolphins?
[85:30] >> Oh, like the Oh, well, you know the
[85:32] whole the um not beluga. What's Yeah, it
[85:34] was the beluga. The Russian spy whale.
[85:36] >> I don't know that. I was talking about
[85:37] dolphins they use to detonate things.
[85:40] >> Oh, tell me about it.
[85:41] >> They use dolphins as like literal
[85:44] distributors of warheads.
[85:46] >> Oh, really?
[85:47] >> Get a dolphin to go somewhere and then
[85:48] they blow them up.
[85:49] >> No way. Like a kamicazi dolphin.
[85:51] >> I don't know the exact details of it cuz
[85:53] I got sad when I was reading about it. I
[85:55] was like, "Oh,
[85:56] >> I have a deep attachment to dolphins." I
[85:59] [ __ ] love dolphins. I
[86:00] >> I always say anybody who hates dolphins
[86:01] has to be a bad person.
[86:02] >> I've had some experiences with them. I
[86:04] had one where I was like really high on
[86:06] edibles in Hawaii and um the dolphins
[86:10] would jump out of the water near the
[86:11] boat and they look at you.
[86:13] >> Yeah.
[86:13] >> They look at you when they were jumping
[86:14] out of the water like look look at me
[86:17] like look they're doing this thing and
[86:19] >> and they're literally just playing.
[86:20] They're playing 100% playing because
[86:22] they came to the boat and they were
[86:24] jumping in the wake of the boat and the
[86:26] more you would cheer and yay look at
[86:29] that more they were doing it and they
[86:31] were having fun and I was like these are
[86:33] incredible creatures.
[86:34] >> Oh, they totally pick up on your energy.
[86:36] >> So the secret dolphin program began in
[86:38] 1959 to detect underwater mines and
[86:41] enemy divers. But I think they did stuff
[86:45] >> where they I mean whether this is
[86:46] correct or they just like uh change the
[86:48] history. It says that they didn't do
[86:50] anything to harm humans or engage in
[86:52] combat. They like told their handlers to
[86:54] do it. The one that I've heard about is
[86:56] that they put them out ahead.
[86:57] >> They were just signifying in dark water
[86:59] because they could see stuff better than
[87:00] our current technology back then. So
[87:02] they would echolocate and say, "Yo, we
[87:04] got something over here. Come check it
[87:05] out." That's what this
[87:06] >> Well, how's the dolphin communicate that
[87:08] back to the people? And how does it know
[87:09] what the person's intended?
[87:13] I don't know.
[87:15] >> That was pretty good. I think there was
[87:18] some speculation that they actually used
[87:20] them as weapons, though.
[87:21] >> Well, have you seen V? Not to transition
[87:24] off dolphins, but Voldemir Voldemir the
[87:27] Vladimir. I don't know. The Russian spy
[87:29] beluga.
[87:30] >> No.
[87:31] >> Okay. This is a real thing. Like, like
[87:33] 100% this one's real. So, there was this
[87:35] beluga whale named Voldemir or Vladimir
[87:38] or something like that. and he turned up
[87:39] in Norway and he was escaped from a
[87:42] Russian spy program and he had a harness
[87:45] with spy gear on him. This is him right
[87:47] here. Look. Um, see the spy gear on him?
[87:49] It's like a whole thing. Um, and so the
[87:52] Russians had been training this whale as
[87:55] a spy and had harnesses and spy
[87:58] equipment on him and then he just pieced
[87:59] out and and turned up in I want to say
[88:01] Norway and then they followed him for a
[88:03] while and then he mysteriously got shot.
[88:07] >> Yeah.
[88:07] >> Mysteriously. Yep.
[88:08] >> Some things with the dolphin, like with
[88:10] the dolphin story, I don't know if this
[88:11] is accurate, but I did read this one
[88:12] time that we would like with if we knew
[88:14] Russia was doing this, we would put some
[88:16] paperwork out that said, well, we've got
[88:18] dolphins that are, you know, blowing up
[88:19] mines,
[88:20] >> right?
[88:20] >> Just so you guys like, well, now you got
[88:22] now we got to figure that out wild goose
[88:24] chases.
[88:25] >> That's a good point. That's a good
[88:26] point. It's like you never really know
[88:27] what's real, right?
[88:28] >> How cool the beluga whales look, though.
[88:30] Look at that thing. That looks like an
[88:31] alien.
[88:31] >> N they're super super I mean, look at
[88:33] that. That looks like if the We have
[88:35] come to your planet.
[88:37] discuss your use of nuclear power
[88:40] >> and he would talk in that very calm
[88:42] tone.
[88:42] >> That looks like something that would be
[88:43] very calm.
[88:44] >> Um, no, that was a Yeah, this was a
[88:46] crazy story.
[88:46] >> Well, you know the John Lily research
[88:48] with dolphins. Do you know about that?
[88:50] >> I'm not sure. Tell me.
[88:51] >> Okay. John Lily is the guy who invented
[88:53] the sensory deprivation tank.
[88:55] >> Oh, yeah. You have one of those, don't
[88:56] you? Yes. Yes, we have one over here.
[88:58] John Lily was the man who was the
[89:01] inspiration for the movie Altered
[89:03] States.
[89:03] >> Okay. So John Lily, who was this really
[89:06] interesting guy and was famously like
[89:12] out there
[89:13] >> with psychedelics, like he would he
[89:15] would take intramuscular doses of
[89:17] ketamine and jump in the sensory
[89:18] deprivation tank.
[89:20] >> Oh, damn.
[89:20] >> Yeah.
[89:20] >> Trying to unlock brain things.
[89:22] >> My friend Todd actually did it with him.
[89:24] >> Oh wow.
[89:25] >> Yeah. So John Lily, who was also a
[89:28] pioneer in interspecies communication,
[89:30] so they were trying to figure out how to
[89:32] communicate with dolphins. So they set
[89:34] up a house and this lady lived with the
[89:37] dolphins in the house to get the dolphin
[89:39] and trying trying to coach the dolphin
[89:41] and the way like literally she lived in
[89:43] water. So the water was like you know 4t
[89:46] deep and she lived with this dolphin.
[89:48] The problem was the dolphin was super
[89:50] horny. And so the only way that she
[89:53] could get this dolphin to cooperate was
[89:55] she had to jerk him off. Y
[89:57] >> so she was jerking off the dolphin and
[89:59] somehow or another they found out and
[90:01] they cut the funding for research
[90:03] >> but she had to do it.
[90:04] >> That's what I said.
[90:05] >> You got to do it. That's the joke.
[90:06] >> Look at that. It seems like she liked it
[90:07] though. Look at her. The way she's
[90:09] hugging him. She's like, "Yeah."
[90:11] >> I mean, after a while, she probably did
[90:13] enjoy it a little bit.
[90:14] >> I mean, what else are you going to do?
[90:15] You're stuck in a tank with a dolphin.
[90:17] >> The girl who talked to dolphins. So, is
[90:19] there a documentary on this?
[90:20] >> Yep.
[90:21] >> Ooh. Let's uh Is there a clip?
[90:23] >> Uh,
[90:25] I'll check. Was it like blurry where you
[90:26] see her hand moving up and down?
[90:29] >> Water turning white.
[90:30] >> So I guess but if she jerked the dolphin
[90:33] off then the dolphin would try to talk
[90:35] to her. But the thing was you can't
[90:38] really get them to they they can't make
[90:41] the noises that we want them to make.
[90:42] They don't have the ability like it
[90:44] could say
[90:47] it
[90:47] >> but it can't like the vocal cords aren't
[90:49] there for it.
[90:50] >> That's one of the things where AI may
[90:52] actually start to make a huge
[90:54] difference.
[90:54] >> Right. Yeah, cuz they are able to
[90:56] decipher a lot of like citation like
[90:59] dolphin and whale language now and with
[91:01] enough of a database they'll start to be
[91:02] able to say like this this means this
[91:04] this means this.
[91:05] >> Have they actively deciphered?
[91:07] >> It it's so it's coming up to a so bas
[91:09] you know how AI works you have to train
[91:10] it on something right?
[91:11] >> Is this the lady?
[91:12] >> I think so.
[91:13] >> She looks like the kind of lady that
[91:14] would do that.
[91:15] >> I just
[91:17] >> she's got a real dolphin jerk look to
[91:18] her.
[91:20] >> This is such a crazy story.
[91:22] >> She does. Listen to these orca whales
[91:24] imitate human speech. No,
[91:25] >> it says it's responding.
[91:27] >> Let me hear it.
[91:28] >> Oh, there's your guy.
[91:30] >> There's my guy.
[91:30] >> Yeah.
[91:32] >> Let me hear it.
[91:36] >> Bye-bye.
[91:38] >> Bye-bye.
[91:41] >> A It's getting there.
[91:42] >> It's trying.
[91:43] >> Yeah.
[91:45] >> Amy.
[91:48] >> Whoa.
[91:50] Hello.
[91:52] It's amazing.
[91:55] >> Whoa.
[91:57] >> One, two.
[92:01] >> I bet what it wants to say is, "Let me
[92:03] go, you [ __ ] [ __ ]
[92:06] Put me back in the ocean, you crazy
[92:08] bitch."
[92:11] Okay, quit jerking me off and put me
[92:13] back in the ocean.
[92:16] >> Maybe if they jerked off the killer
[92:17] whales, they wouldn't have killed them.
[92:18] >> Yeah. Yeah, good point.
[92:22] It's like like just like SeaWorld alone,
[92:25] it's just it's so awful. And it wasn't
[92:28] until th those that documentary, what
[92:30] was it called? Blackish Blackfish. Yeah.
[92:32] That was like the first one where people
[92:33] went like, "Hey,
[92:34] >> it was really eye opening.
[92:36] >> We We shouldn't support this at all." I
[92:38] mean, I can't believe people still even
[92:39] go to [ __ ] SeaWorld.
[92:40] >> It's pretty crazy.
[92:41] >> It's basically prison.
[92:42] >> Do you know about those two in France
[92:43] that are trapped there?
[92:45] >> No.
[92:46] >> Oh, this is interesting. So, there is
[92:47] basically a SeaWorld equivalent in
[92:49] France and the government shut it down.
[92:53] I forget the I'm sure we can figure it
[92:55] out, but it was shut down, but then the
[92:57] dolphins and the two orcas were not
[92:59] released. And the guy's like, "These are
[93:00] mine. I'm not releasing them." And I
[93:02] can't afford to release them or move
[93:04] them. So, they've just been sitting in
[93:05] these abandoned tanks for I want to say
[93:07] a year now. U maybe maybe more. Yeah,
[93:10] this is it here. The race to save these
[93:12] two. Um Jamie, I don't know if you can
[93:14] see if there's an aerial shot of it, but
[93:16] They just suck.
[93:17] >> Yeah. So, they're just sitting in this
[93:19] thing, but but it's closed.
[93:21] >> The guy can't afford to feed them
[93:22] because nobody's visiting. And then I
[93:25] believe the government just doesn't want
[93:26] to do anything about it cuz they're
[93:27] like, "We just wanted to shut you down.
[93:29] We don't want to actually like do
[93:30] anything about it." So, there's just
[93:31] these two orcas sitting in these tanks.
[93:34] >> And how do they get food?
[93:35] >> I mean, he's feeding them, but he's like
[93:36] doing it out of his pocket, and it's
[93:38] like few and far between.
[93:39] >> Oh, man.
[93:40] >> So, yeah, it's it's a crazy They're
[93:42] They're Yeah. the abandoned whales, and
[93:44] they're just sitting in these tanks.
[93:45] We've had uh Do you know who Phil Demers
[93:47] is? He's a guy who uh he helped shut
[93:50] down Marineland in Canada. Oh,
[93:51] >> okay. Yeah.
[93:52] >> Which was an awful awful place. Bad
[93:54] facility.
[93:54] >> It's like there's so many of these
[93:56] [ __ ] places like that where you see
[93:57] what they're doing and just like,
[94:00] >> oh man, if we could understand them.
[94:02] >> Yeah.
[94:03] >> And we we could I think someday in the
[94:05] future we're going to look back at that
[94:06] the way people today look back at
[94:07] slavery. Oh, we're going to say these
[94:09] are intelligent creatures that just they
[94:11] just don't have the ability to
[94:13] manipulate their environment like we do.
[94:15] But like just dolphins, their cerebral
[94:17] cortex is 40% larger than a human
[94:19] beings.
[94:20] >> So something's going on in there and you
[94:24] think it's okay to put them in a
[94:25] swimming pool. That's crazy.
[94:26] >> Dude, it's the same thing like what I
[94:27] was talking about elephants. Their their
[94:29] EQ, their emotional intelligence. We
[94:31] can't even comprehend it. Like the way
[94:33] those animals feel like the highs that
[94:35] an an elephant experiences and the lows
[94:37] it experience are way bigger than the
[94:39] highs or lows that most humans I think
[94:41] any human can experience. Like their EQ
[94:43] is way bigger than ours. The trauma that
[94:45] they feel from losing a loved one or
[94:47] from being abused or whatever it happens
[94:49] to be is like 10x what humans can even
[94:52] emotionally comprehend.
[94:53] >> How do we know that?
[94:54] >> Based on their their brain scans and
[94:56] whatnot. I don't know the specifics of
[94:58] it but because that part of their brain
[95:00] is so much larger than ours. Wow.
[95:02] >> And so you have these, they might not
[95:03] have the same like computive skills as
[95:06] we do mentally, but they have this
[95:07] emotional intelligence that's like so
[95:10] much deeper and broader than ours. At
[95:12] least that's my belief.
[95:13] >> It is a weird thing with us where we
[95:15] only characterize intelligence as the
[95:17] ability to manipulate your environment.
[95:19] >> Yeah. Like
[95:20] >> we we want you to write a book,
[95:21] >> right?
[95:22] >> I don't I don't trust you. You're real.
[95:23] You're really smart. Make a house.
[95:25] >> Prove it.
[95:25] >> Why don't you Why don't you How come you
[95:27] don't have a rocket ship?
[95:27] >> Right. Right.
[95:29] >> If you're so smart, where's your phone?
[95:30] >> Right. Yeah. Yeah.
[95:33] It's weird, right?
[95:33] >> It's a weird way to look at things.
[95:35] >> Yeah. It's like I think there's a part
[95:38] of people that recognize that this this
[95:42] direction that people like that this
[95:44] classification of intelligence
[95:46] >> in that way is is wrong. But I don't I
[95:48] don't think we can really quantify it
[95:50] yet. And if AI really can decipher
[95:55] dolphin language, orca language, whale
[95:57] language, if they really can and we
[95:58] realize that they're actually
[95:59] communicating God, I would hope that
[96:02] would change our approach to how we deal
[96:03] with those things.
[96:04] >> I think it would
[96:04] >> because there's I think they are sea
[96:06] people.
[96:08] Yeah.
[96:08] >> They're just they don't need to
[96:10] manipulate their environment. First of
[96:12] all, they can travel 3D.
[96:15] >> They go up, they go down, they go
[96:16] across, they can hold their breath for
[96:18] an hour. They don't need to make a
[96:20] house. No,
[96:20] >> their food is everywhere. Also, they're
[96:23] at the top of the [ __ ] food chain.
[96:24] That's right.
[96:25] >> They're orcas,
[96:26] >> and they're no they're nomadic. They
[96:28] don't. They don't. We are not nomadic by
[96:30] trade. So, we have to manipulate our
[96:32] environment to make it more comfortable.
[96:34] >> Slow.
[96:35] >> Yeah.
[96:35] >> They move so fast they can make a
[96:36] sunfish explode.
[96:38] >> Straight up. Yeah. Straight up.
[96:40] >> We're so slow. Like the fastest people
[96:42] like we just run into each other and
[96:44] knock each other unconscious. That's
[96:45] That's what we could do.
[96:46] >> Fun to watch though,
[96:48] dude. Uh but I want to go back to what
[96:50] you said about I I agree, by the way,
[96:51] about orcas and captivity and whales and
[96:53] things like that. There's this huge
[96:55] anti-zoo movement that I just don't
[96:57] agree with, though. Like I I believe I
[97:00] agree with you that in the future we'll
[97:02] go, why did we keep animals the way we
[97:04] did? And when you look at old zoos and
[97:06] concrete boxes and stuff,
[97:07] >> but there's so much good that animals in
[97:09] captivity have done. Saving species,
[97:11] keeping things alive, connecting kids to
[97:13] nature, there's a is a lot of gray area.
[97:16] There's Tiger King and there's [ __ ]
[97:18] San Diego Zoo. You know what I mean?
[97:19] There's a lot of nuance to it. So
[97:21] >> San Diego Zoo is an excellent example of
[97:22] a really great zoo. It's unbelievable.
[97:24] It's incredible.
[97:25] >> I've been to that place before.
[97:26] >> Yeah.
[97:26] >> Um but I also went to that wolf place
[97:28] with you. Yeah.
[97:29] >> And that made me sad.
[97:30] >> I know. Yeah. I know.
[97:31] >> We went there. I was bummed out, man.
[97:33] >> But at least they're rescuing them, you
[97:34] know? Like
[97:35] >> I know. But they also cut their balls
[97:36] off.
[97:37] >> Yeah.
[97:38] >> That bummed me out hardcore.
[97:39] >> Otherwise, they all fight. I mean, but
[97:41] that's the gray area that you have like
[97:43] what's the alternative, you know? It's
[97:44] like they die.
[97:46] >> Let them loose.
[97:46] >> But then none of but only a few of them
[97:48] were pure wolves. You can't just let
[97:50] loose a wolf dog, you know? Cuz then
[97:52] you're muddying jeans. It's such a
[97:53] complicated thing.
[97:54] >> Well, isn't that the whole reason why
[97:56] black wolves exist in the first place? I
[97:58] think black wolves exist because it's a
[98:00] trait that they got from domesticated
[98:01] dogs. I
[98:02] >> I read that and then I read it was false
[98:04] and then I read it again. I don't know
[98:05] what the truth behind that is.
[98:06] >> Let's put it into perplexity. They'll
[98:08] probably say it's a rogeness claim
[98:12] >> as stated on today's podcast.
[98:13] >> How do you want to word that so you kind
[98:15] of get a good
[98:16] >> uh That's interesting. How do you word
[98:17] that? Um, would you say um is it true
[98:21] that black wolves
[98:24] inherited that trait from domesticated
[98:28] dogs? Because that is one thing that
[98:30] absolutely has happened is that there's
[98:32] been interbreeding between and not just
[98:34] on purpose. No, like Yeah,
[98:36] >> it happens. Yeah. I mean, you get wolves
[98:38] and Yeah, it does.
[98:39] >> Yeah. Yeah. Is the genetic mutation of a
[98:42] black fur color
[98:43] >> brought about by domestication?
[98:45] >> Yes.
[98:46] >> Oh, hold on. Is it?
[98:48] >> Sorry, throwing a lot at you, Jamie.
[98:52] >> Is it Is the black the trait of black
[98:55] wolves, did they inherit that from
[98:58] domesticated dogs?
[99:00] >> Edit my thing, man. Is that good enough
[99:02] or not?
[99:03] >> Uh,
[99:04] from domesticated dogs,
[99:06] >> I would. Yeah. Yeah. See, see what it
[99:08] says.
[99:11] >> Let's see.
[99:14] If you're not pointed enough, it'll
[99:15] start guessing what
[99:16] >> I love watching it work where it's like
[99:18] spinning. Yes, this is well supported by
[99:21] genetic research.
[99:22] >> Black coat color in North American
[99:24] wolves comes from mutation in the K
[99:26] locus, especially specifically,
[99:29] excuse me, a three base pair deletion in
[99:32] the CBD103.
[99:34] Uh, I don't know what that little thing
[99:36] is.
[99:37] >> Yeah, I don't know.
[99:38] >> Defense in gene defense.
[99:40] >> Is that what it is?
[99:41] >> I think so. uh produces a dominantly
[99:43] inherited melanistic phenotype. The
[99:45] mutation originated in dogs and moved
[99:47] into wolves through hybridization, not
[99:50] the other way around. Interesting.
[99:51] >> 2009 study by Anderson at all uh first
[99:54] identified the KB black alil in wolves
[99:58] is derived from dog wolf interbreeding.
[100:01] >> Followup work analyzing 331 wolves and
[100:04] 20 dogs found that North American wolf
[100:08] uh how do you say that word? Hlo types.
[100:11] >> Oh, haplo type. Yeah.
[100:12] >> Uh are monofillettic
[100:16] >> meaning a sing I feel like you're my
[100:17] teacher. A single
[100:20] >> Mhm.
[100:20] >> Good job.
[100:22] >> introgression event from dogs most
[100:24] likely seated uh the al through the
[100:27] continent probably in the Yukon or north
[100:31] northwest territories. Um you know I um
[100:34] went to where Colossal has made the
[100:37] direwolves.
[100:38] >> Ben texted me when you guys went. That
[100:40] was a interesting experience.
[100:41] >> Was that cool to see?
[100:42] >> Yes.
[100:43] >> I haven't even seen him. I know it's a
[100:44] whole hush hush. You know,
[100:45] >> I brought my youngest daughter and she
[100:47] was cuddling with the four-month old
[100:48] wolf.
[100:49] >> Well, there you go.
[100:49] >> You can cuddle with them when they're 4
[100:50] months old up until a certain point, but
[100:52] it was like a puppy
[100:53] >> and it was still huge, right?
[100:54] >> It was No, no, no, no, no. It was pretty
[100:56] small.
[100:57] >> Yeah,
[100:57] >> it was like uh
[101:00] 40 lb, something like that. It was so
[101:03] [ __ ] cute, man. She was so sweet. She
[101:06] was so sweet. She would cuddle with you
[101:07] and you you pet her and she'd kiss you.
[101:10] It was like a [ __ ] dog, man. That is
[101:12] her name. There you go. That is
[101:14] >> Oh my god, she's so sweet. But the
[101:16] males, they had two males that had
[101:20] >> That's her name. That's right. Kesi's
[101:21] the girl.
[101:23] >> So there's Romulus. Look how cute they
[101:25] are when they're little babies. Remis
[101:26] >> Remis Romulus and then Kesi the girl.
[101:29] >> That was pretty cool.
[101:30] >> So Khesi was the one that we got to to
[101:32] cuddle with.
[101:32] >> Man, they're cute.
[101:34] >> Oh my god, she was so [ __ ] adorable.
[101:36] But you could only hang out with her for
[101:38] a little while and then they got big and
[101:40] now they're big. He sends me pictures.
[101:42] So they were like that when we went
[101:44] there.
[101:45] >> Like that size.
[101:45] >> Like that size. The
[101:47] >> males. I don't know if I let my kids in
[101:48] with a wolf that size.
[101:49] >> Well, they kept away from you and um we
[101:52] were in a large contained area. Um but
[101:55] we got to go out with them.
[101:56] >> Yeah.
[101:57] >> And uh they just kind of hang out and
[101:59] look at you. They keep away from you for
[102:00] the most part. But she didn't. She She
[102:03] wanted But she can't be with them yet.
[102:05] Sheales. Yeah. She was too little.
[102:06] Interesting. It was too like, you know,
[102:08] they didn't want her to get killed and
[102:09] was just too sketchy. She was tiny.
[102:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[102:12] >> And she was, you know, she was still a
[102:14] baby still. But they were older. I think
[102:17] they were a year or close to a year. But
[102:19] they could hang out with them for the
[102:21] first like five or six months, I think.
[102:22] And then after a while, they just got
[102:24] different. There's also some stuff about
[102:25] them that they didn't even know
[102:27] direwolves had, like the mane, which is
[102:30] interesting. They have a mane. Like
[102:32] almost like a lion's mane.
[102:34] >> Wow. which they didn't know and they
[102:36] didn't know they were going to be white
[102:37] either.
[102:37] >> Now, is that a variant from their
[102:39] genetic mutation work or is that
[102:40] something that's just expressing itself?
[102:42] >> Very good question that you would have
[102:43] to talk to a geneticist about because
[102:45] like there's a lot of people that don't
[102:46] even agree they're actually direwolves
[102:48] >> a lot. Yeah. A lot.
[102:49] >> They're essentially saying that what
[102:50] you've done is you've taken the traits
[102:52] of direwolves and you've made them be
[102:54] expressed in a greywolf. This is a
[102:55] greywolf.
[102:56] >> But that's what Beth says they've done.
[102:57] You know what I mean? Like she's she's
[102:58] not they're not hiding that. They're
[103:00] like we're trying to fill a niche. We're
[103:02] trying to make something.
[103:03] >> Yes. Yeah, but she's also said that I
[103:06] think I don't want to mischaracterize,
[103:07] but I essentially what they're saying is
[103:09] but that's what a direwolf was, right?
[103:11] Like that they are a wolf that has all
[103:14] of these traits, right? Like the size is
[103:16] the same, the look is the same. You can
[103:18] get technical and say, "No, you've taken
[103:20] a greywolf and made it." But yes, but
[103:23] they got those genes specifically from
[103:26] dead direwolves,
[103:28] >> right? So, it's like, well, what is it?
[103:30] Our own classification of these things
[103:32] that we're disputing, right? Because we
[103:34] can't just decide like that this I call
[103:37] this a direwolf and that's what it is.
[103:38] Like, the genes don't give a [ __ ] what
[103:41] labels you put on them. Not at all.
[103:42] >> You know, and if you make a dinosaur
[103:44] like that's not a real T-Rex. It ate
[103:46] everyone in the city. It's a real T-Rex.
[103:48] It just took over a [ __ ] city and it
[103:50] just ate everyone in a VW bus.
[103:52] >> It's a 30 foot tall lizard. It's a
[103:53] dinosaur. Like, it doesn't matter how
[103:55] you shape it. Yeah.
[103:56] >> Oh, the woolly mouse is really cool,
[103:57] too. Yeah, they're really neat. Ben Ben
[103:58] Ben Ben told me one day I could have a
[104:00] woolly mouse, so I'm holding them to
[104:02] that. Yeah,
[104:03] >> it's it's really interesting seeing the
[104:06] dire wolves though and just imagining
[104:08] what was it like when those things are
[104:10] just roaming the earth.
[104:11] >> I know
[104:11] >> cuz it's like a 200lb wolf that's all
[104:13] white with like thick fur and and a mane
[104:16] like a lion.
[104:17] >> Dude, speaking of roaming the earth, did
[104:19] have you heard the theory about how uh
[104:21] sloth bears stopped Sorry, not sloth
[104:23] bears. Uh ca uh what were the big cave
[104:25] bears in Shortfaced bears stopped human
[104:27] immigration?
[104:28] >> Yes.
[104:28] >> Have you read about that? Yeah, that's
[104:30] really cool.
[104:30] >> Totally makes sense.
[104:31] >> It totally does. They just stood there
[104:33] waiting for people like salmon to cross
[104:35] the bearing land bridge and they're
[104:37] like, "Well, it's that time of year
[104:38] again."
[104:39] >> Also, like who would do that knowing
[104:41] that those things are out there? That
[104:43] thing was so big. It's like double the
[104:45] size of a polar bear.
[104:46] >> It's crazy. Yeah.
[104:48] >> A twice large polar bear that is can run
[104:51] 50 m. Look at that thing.
[104:53] I don't care how smart we are. That is
[104:55] not something you want to face,
[104:56] >> right? Even if you have a gun, like good
[104:58] luck. Like if you have a 9 mm handgun
[105:01] and you run across a grizzly bear,
[105:02] you're dead.
[105:03] >> Yeah.
[105:03] >> It's not going to be enough firepower.
[105:05] So how what are you going to what are
[105:07] you going to hit that thing with? So you
[105:09] know that's good. Rocks and spears.
[105:10] Yeah,
[105:11] >> rocks.
[105:12] >> Oh, rocks.
[105:13] >> I mean, when they first started coming
[105:14] across, did they even have [ __ ] bows
[105:15] and arrows that yet?
[105:17] >> I I don't know. Yeah, but they I mean
[105:19] spears for sure, but like that.
[105:21] >> But then there's the the there's the
[105:23] real question. Is that the only way
[105:25] people got here?
[105:27] When you see the white sands footprints
[105:29] that are 22,000 years old, and you start
[105:31] going, okay, well, this predates the ice
[105:33] age.
[105:34] >> It's before any humans were known
[105:35] anywhere in the new world.
[105:37] >> Yeah. So, it's like, well, what's going
[105:38] on there? Cuz this is actual human
[105:40] footprints
[105:41] >> that have been dated to 22,000 years
[105:43] ago. And that's just all we found.
[105:45] >> Yeah.
[105:45] >> That's just because they left
[105:46] footprints. Like that doesn't mean there
[105:48] wasn't something there 50,000 years
[105:50] before, 100,000 years before.
[105:51] >> Exactly.
[105:52] >> And then there's in Mexico this evidence
[105:55] that looks like predation on mammoth
[105:58] bones by humans.
[105:59] >> Oh, really? Like spearheads and things,
[106:02] >> carvings into mammoth bones and looks
[106:04] like they're broken open to get marrow.
[106:07] Very disputed, right? Because there's
[106:08] also
[106:09] >> some people that think it could have
[106:10] been like some rocks falling on the
[106:12] bones that cracked open. I'm not sure
[106:14] how this is happening, but it does think
[106:16] they
[106:17] >> Oh, let me write this up for Joe. [ __ ]
[106:20] off.
[106:20] >> I'm going have to figure something. I
[106:22] might have to erase some stuff.
[106:23] >> What is We're going to have to get a a a
[106:25] separate computer that we only use for
[106:27] perplexity. Um, what is the question?
[106:29] >> Oh, sorry. Um, well, how would humans
[106:31] have contested shortfaced bears on the
[106:33] bearing straight?
[106:34] >> Look at Let me write this up for Joe.
[106:35] [ __ ] off, man. Like a baby.
[106:39] The actual
[106:40] >> evidence of monster bears kept humans
[106:42] out of North America. doesn't hold up
[106:44] any longer apparently.
[106:46] >> Uh human
[106:47] >> so yeah when I was finding people said
[106:48] it was a myth that someone a scientist
[106:51] sort of commented on a paper that
[106:52] doesn't necessarily he could have
[106:54] thought that but they didn't really have
[106:56] evidence for it.
[106:57] >> Well here's the thing like the idea of a
[106:59] bear line. No cuz the problem is bears
[107:03] they would have to eat so much to
[107:06] sustain that kind of mass. Yeah.
[107:08] >> That there couldn't really have been a
[107:09] lot of them.
[107:10] >> No. But it it sure makes sense that they
[107:12] were predating upon people when they
[107:13] came across.
[107:14] >> Oh, hold up, hold up. Go back back up
[107:16] here. This this guy's saying something
[107:17] kooky. He's saying that a hyper
[107:20] carnivore built for pacing long
[107:22] distance. He argued that it was
[107:24] primarily a scavenger using it size,
[107:27] sense of smell, and long-legged gate
[107:29] >> to kleptoarici
[107:31] parasitiz.
[107:34] >> You got it. There it is. kills from
[107:35] lions, direwolves, and scimitar cats
[107:38] rather than the rundown prey itself.
[107:40] That doesn't even make sense. Longlegged
[107:42] gate would make it faster. I I I've
[107:45] heard about this. So, yeah, the theory
[107:46] is that shortfaced bear would come in
[107:49] and rob a kill like basically what a
[107:50] hyena does to lions
[107:52] >> or what wolves do to mountain lions.
[107:53] >> Yes, but I think it to me it doesn't add
[107:56] up.
[107:56] >> Well, well, you know, grizzly bears
[107:58] chase down moose and kill them. There's
[108:00] plenty of videos. I watched a video
[108:02] yesterday of it. They've also shown now
[108:03] that hyenas are incredibly efficient
[108:05] predators. And until like 10 years ago,
[108:07] we thought hyenas were only scavengers
[108:09] or I mean it's longer than that, but you
[108:11] know what I mean. And now they show they
[108:12] have like a 30% success rate, which is
[108:14] very high.
[108:15] >> Yeah. There's no reason why they
[108:16] wouldn't be if they're carnivores. Like
[108:18] why would they be completely relying on
[108:20] other animals to do the work for them
[108:21] when they have that kind of biting
[108:23] power?
[108:23] >> They they're just opportunistic like all
[108:25] carnivores
[108:26] >> and they move as packs. Yeah.
[108:27] >> They work as pack animals. So they kind
[108:29] of move like dogs. If if you're going to
[108:31] get food, get food. Do you know what I
[108:32] mean? If you can kill it, kill it. If
[108:34] you can fight something off for it,
[108:35] fight something off for it. Like, it
[108:36] doesn't really matter. That's how
[108:38] carnivores are.
[108:39] >> What is this, J? What are you saying?
[108:40] >> It says this is how they hunted brown
[108:41] bears. They probably would have done it
[108:42] the same way.
[108:43] >> Oh, get him in the dens
[108:44] >> and then Yeah. burn it. Burn the
[108:46] entrance with fire. Probably kill the
[108:48] babies,
[108:49] >> right? But that's if you had access to
[108:52] fire.
[108:53] >> They had an adult and a spear at best
[108:55] and maybe some fire that they could
[108:56] maybe move. You know,
[108:58] >> you know how close you have to be to hit
[109:00] something with an adult?
[109:01] >> Yeah.
[109:02] >> Okay. There's uh there's some videos
[109:04] that are really interesting where
[109:05] they're showing people uh realistic
[109:08] scenarios where a bear is charging you
[109:10] and Oh. And they pull the out. Yeah.
[109:12] Showing bear spray and guns like showing
[109:15] them like imag like imagine you have a
[109:17] 10 mm semi-automatic pistol and you have
[109:20] to rack it. So you have to rack a slide.
[109:22] So the gun the bear's coming. You have
[109:24] to draw the gun, rack it,
[109:27] >> take the safety off,
[109:27] >> and then point it towards the animal and
[109:29] squeeze it to you're dead.
[109:30] >> You're done.
[109:31] >> You're already dead.
[109:32] >> It's It's like that.
[109:33] >> It has to be like a hundred yards away
[109:35] from you as it starts running for you to
[109:37] get a shot off.
[109:38] >> I think the like idea is the bear gives
[109:40] you some sign.
[109:41] >> Look at that [ __ ] ass thing.
[109:45] >> I've tried one. It is impossible to
[109:48] throw accurately.
[109:49] >> Well, that's true, but you're not
[109:51] practiced in it, right?
[109:52] >> No, of course not. Yeah. I mean, I've
[109:54] seen people that are super accurate with
[109:56] spears.
[109:57] >> Isn't your buddy Adam Greenree, doesn't
[109:59] he do the atl?
[110:01] >> He might. He's such a psycho.
[110:04] >> I think I've seen him.
[110:05] >> He probably knows how to do it. Yeah,
[110:07] but I mean, pretty wild.
[110:08] >> It's not a good weapon.
[110:10] >> No,
[110:10] >> I mean, it's definitely better than no
[110:11] weapon, but
[110:12] >> I mean, what's the advantage over
[110:14] throwing a spear? It just goes further.
[110:16] >> Mechanical leverage. So, it's I have a
[110:18] thing like that for my dog. It's like a
[110:21] It's like a thing
[110:23] >> that has a ball on the end of it and you
[110:24] can It's so easy to not blow your
[110:26] shoulder out. You can throw it pretty
[110:28] [ __ ] far, right?
[110:29] >> And and I when every time I do it I was
[110:31] like, "Wow, of course this is way
[110:33] better." You got extra leverage with
[110:36] this thing. And then also you can kind
[110:37] of whip it with your wrist and you get
[110:38] all this action
[110:39] >> with the ball. You You would do the same
[110:41] thing with a spear, with a battle. It
[110:43] makes sense. It makes sense.
[110:44] >> Seems hard to be accurate though.
[110:46] >> Super hard. Well, it's hard to be
[110:47] accurate with a traditional bow,
[110:49] >> right?
[110:49] >> You know, it's so hard. Like I, you
[110:51] know, I shoot a compound bow.
[110:54] >> And a compound bow is uh
[110:57] >> there's so much technology involved. Oh,
[110:59] yeah. First of all, I have a laser
[111:01] rangefinder and I I'll range something.
[111:03] It says 52 yards. Then I go to my sight
[111:07] tape that's on my my sight on my bow and
[111:10] I dial it to 52 yards because I use
[111:13] archery software that measures the
[111:16] weight of my arrow. So I have this 500
[111:18] grain arrow and then it has the speed
[111:21] per so it's 390 feet per second from a
[111:23] 500 grain arrow and then it I put it
[111:26] into this computer and it spits out a
[111:27] sight tape so that I can move my pins
[111:30] specifically so I can put it in a
[111:32] quarter at 52 yards if I was accurate
[111:35] enough. I'm not no one really is except
[111:37] like really excellent worldass archers.
[111:39] But
[111:40] >> with a traditional bow you're just
[111:42] guessing.
[111:42] >> Yeah. So, you're just guessing the arc
[111:44] of the arrow. And then you have to
[111:45] think, okay, I'm buying arrows, right,
[111:49] that are made by a guy who's measuring
[111:52] them. They're all down to like they're
[111:54] within two grains of each other, and
[111:56] they have like inserts. My front of
[111:58] center is very high,
[111:59] >> perfect aerodynamics,
[112:00] >> and they're made out of carbon fiber.
[112:03] These [ __ ] arrows, they're making
[112:04] them by hand. And then they're making
[112:06] the arrow heads by hand. So, they could
[112:09] be off each one of them. Like so you're
[112:11] just guessing where that [ __ ] arrow
[112:13] is going to go and you have to shoot
[112:15] every day to get a real sense of like
[112:17] what the drop is at a certain distance
[112:20] and then you have to kind of judge how
[112:22] far is he. Is he 20 yards? Is he 30
[112:24] yards? Is he 50 yards?
[112:26] >> So even with modern traditional bows and
[112:28] that's like that sounds like a
[112:30] >> Yeah, I know what you mean. Recurves and
[112:32] long bows.
[112:33] >> Yeah, right. I mean it that sounds like
[112:35] an oxymoron but they are still
[112:37] traditional in the sense of you're not
[112:39] using cams. Yeah,
[112:40] >> you don't have like a cam that rolls
[112:42] over and it's a mechanical advantage and
[112:44] fiberglass limbs and all this jazz.
[112:46] You're using like wood still, right?
[112:49] Even with those things, you're still
[112:51] buying arrows and the arrows weigh the
[112:53] same amount.
[112:54] >> Yeah, they're perfect.
[112:54] >> So, if you did that over and over again
[112:56] in your yard, you did it every day for 3
[112:59] hours a day, you would get a sense of
[113:01] how far. And then
[113:04] >> if you did it a bunch, you'd get an idea
[113:06] of judging distances. And there's like
[113:08] little tricks. There's certain archery
[113:10] tournaments where you're not allowed to
[113:11] use a rangefinder.
[113:12] >> Oh, really?
[113:13] >> Yeah. And so the idea is you have to
[113:17] develop the skill of being and I think
[113:19] these tournaments probably started back
[113:21] when rangefinders didn't exist and then
[113:23] when rangefinders did exist they're like
[113:25] nah that's cheating.
[113:26] >> Keep that out. So and then the targets
[113:27] are at various and so guys develop a
[113:31] very good
[113:33] way of measuring distance. Sure. And
[113:36] what essentially they do is they they
[113:38] can pretty accurately judge five yards
[113:40] and then they double that and then they
[113:42] triple that and then they try to figure
[113:43] it and they get within like 10 or 15
[113:45] yards. Sure. But you you know that's a
[113:47] lot even with a compound bow. You know
[113:49] that drop of 10 or 15 yards is pretty
[113:52] significant. Even something that's going
[113:53] 300 feet a second. But when you're doing
[113:56] >> with a [ __ ] wooden arrow that you
[113:59] made yourself with a stone tip like like
[114:01] one of these bad boys. I have one here
[114:03] somewhere somewhere on this desk.
[114:05] >> Yeah,
[114:06] >> here it is.
[114:08] >> So, like that. Somebody made that. So,
[114:10] if you make that one and then somebody
[114:11] else makes one right next to it, it
[114:13] might be 15 grains different. It might
[114:15] be 50 grains different
[114:16] >> and the aerodynamics are different. Like
[114:18] the the flintnapping is completely
[114:20] different. Yeah.
[114:20] >> Yeah. And this thing's not very That's
[114:23] not good. That thing would plain like a
[114:25] [ __ ] if you shot it out of a a
[114:27] really good bow. And not to mention the
[114:30] stress of if I don't kill this thing,
[114:32] I'm either going to die or I'm not going
[114:33] to eat or you know all the other things.
[114:36] >> And you have a 15oot bear,
[114:38] >> right? Right. Probably bigger. Like what
[114:41] is the height of a shortfaced bear or
[114:43] the length?
[114:44] >> Like what is the what is a big
[114:46] shortfaced bear?
[114:47] >> You seen those caves they have in like
[114:49] Missouri where there still claw marks
[114:51] from shortfaced bears and things?
[114:53] >> Really?
[114:53] >> Oh yeah. You can go visit like midens of
[114:56] them in Missouri where they used to live
[114:57] >> out a cave like a den.
[114:59] >> Yeah. Where they lived in dens and you
[115:00] could see their claw marks in the mud
[115:02] and everything else. It's amazing.
[115:05] >> 11 to 12.
[115:06] >> 11 to 12 feet. Uh I I think they
[115:08] probably have to be bigger than that
[115:09] because Kodiak bears get that big.
[115:13] Kodiak bears can get 12 feet.
[115:15] >> Do they get that big Kodiak?
[115:17] >> Yeah.
[115:18] >> I mean maybe they're measuring them
[115:19] squirrely cuz you know like a lot of
[115:21] times they measure stuff to try to make
[115:22] it seem bigger. So, what is the largest
[115:24] Kodiak bear ever killed? Let's look
[115:27] Let's look that up.
[115:29] Largest Kodiak bear
[115:31] >> it on that picture.
[115:34] >> Largest Kodiak bear ever killed,
[115:38] ever recorded. There you go. Recorded
[115:40] the same thing. Okay, they have it by
[115:43] weight. Um, it's 1,656
[115:47] pounds, which is, by the way, holy
[115:50] [ __ ]
[115:51] >> It's insane.
[115:52] >> Yeah. Yeah. And nearly a one- ton bear.
[115:54] Yeah.
[115:55] >> That's so big.
[115:56] >> Crazy.
[115:57] >> Oh, the hind foot measured 18 in. Oh
[116:00] god. How tall was it? How long was it?
[116:02] >> Was 500 lb more than that.
[116:05] >> Yeah. Over a ton
[116:07] >> in a zoo.
[116:08] >> It was a zoo. Yeah.
[116:08] >> Yeah.
[116:09] >> Oh my god. But he might have been fat.
[116:10] >> He was fat.
[116:11] >> He might have been a short fat. So
[116:16] >> what is the So what is the longest the
[116:20] largest length? I'm pretty sure he's
[116:21] sitting I I think I've seen this bear
[116:23] and he's sitting in the Anchorage
[116:24] airport when you land there.
[116:26] >> Oh, there's a big Is that bear?
[116:27] >> I think that's the largest bear ever.
[116:28] >> I've seen that. Yeah, I've seen that in
[116:30] Anchorage. That's That thing's nuts
[116:32] >> at the airport there.
[116:34] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's in like a glass case or
[116:36] something. Yeah.
[116:37] >> I'm pretty sure that's the biggest bear
[116:38] ever ever shot.
[116:40] >> Look at that one ever recorded. 2,130
[116:44] lbs.
[116:44] >> No uh no no length measurements
[116:46] anywhere.
[116:47] >> That's insane how
[116:48] >> that is so big. That's so crazy.
[116:52] >> The shortfaced bear, they they don't
[116:53] even really know how much it weighed.
[116:56] They're just basing it on the bones.
[116:57] Yeah. Right. They don't have a dead one.
[117:00] >> No.
[117:01] >> So that right that photo up there,
[117:02] that's Fred Bear with his 1962 world
[117:05] record Alaskan bear. Go back to that
[117:07] photo that you just were at before.
[117:10] Yeah. Look at that. That's his stuffed
[117:12] bear.
[117:13] >> Jeez.
[117:13] >> He shot that with a old [ __ ] bow.
[117:15] >> Yeah.
[117:16] >> Look at his bow.
[117:17] >> The recurve bow. Yeah. That bull that
[117:18] bow sucks.
[117:19] >> Wooden arrows.
[117:22] >> That's so crazy. He was the the first
[117:25] like modern bow hunter.
[117:27] >> Oh, really?
[117:27] >> Yeah. I mean, he's a guy who popularized
[117:29] bow hunting. Fred Bear is a legend. Oh,
[117:32] interesting.
[117:32] >> In the bow hunting world. And I mean,
[117:34] you got to think how much how good does
[117:37] life have to be where you go, let's try
[117:40] to do something that people used to do
[117:42] before guns.
[117:43] >> Yeah. Just just because.
[117:44] >> Yeah. It wasn't really a thing that
[117:46] people practiced
[117:47] >> for like the food had to be so readily
[117:51] available that we had to say, "Let's
[117:52] make it harder."
[117:53] >> Yeah.
[117:54] >> Yeah. Let's have so much food. Let's
[117:56] make it more difficult. Like, and then
[117:59] there's guys today that they don't like
[118:01] compound bows because they're too
[118:03] they're too easy.
[118:04] >> Yeah. They're using recurve only. Yeah.
[118:06] It's crazy. My friend Aaron Snder, who's
[118:08] a like a world famous bow hunter, went
[118:11] back to using a recurve bow because he
[118:13] was killing too many things with a
[118:15] compound bow. Felt like it was too easy.
[118:16] >> But that's what happens, right? Is these
[118:17] guys master their their craft and when
[118:19] they spend all that time on it and then
[118:21] they're like, "How do I make the
[118:22] challenge harder on myself?"
[118:23] >> Also, they're competing with other
[118:25] worldass bow hunters. Like, they're all
[118:27] like, "Who's the man?"
[118:29] >> Yeah. Yeah. Bit of an ego stroke thing.
[118:31] >> Yeah. There's a little bit of that, but
[118:33] it's also like that's how they get good
[118:34] in the first place. It's like there's a
[118:36] weird thing about people in competition.
[118:38] You can say competition is bad. Like
[118:39] okay, are you saying that on your phone?
[118:41] Cuz how do you think you got a phone?
[118:43] You got you got a phone because somebody
[118:44] just competing against other people and
[118:46] they developed a phone. It's just a
[118:47] different kind of competition. I
[118:48] >> I think competition is essential to
[118:50] human culture.
[118:52] >> It's certainly essential to progress.
[118:53] >> Yeah.
[118:54] >> And and this is why socialism is never
[118:55] going to work.
[118:57] >> Got to reward people. And if they're not
[118:58] rewarded, they're not going to work hard
[119:00] enough to do anything really
[119:01] spectacular.
[119:02] >> Why bother?
[119:02] >> So you're never going to get a laptop.
[119:05] You would have never had high speed
[119:06] internet. Somebody has to profit wildly.
[119:14] >> But that's the joy of competition paying
[119:15] off.
[119:16] >> Yeah.
[119:16] >> Right. Is like not so much with bow
[119:18] hunting, but if you're competitive as a
[119:21] person to the point that you succeed the
[119:22] most at developing a phone or a cup or
[119:24] whatever it happens to be, you win and
[119:26] you get paid the most.
[119:26] >> We just have to have regulations to make
[119:28] sure that those people don't run a muck
[119:30] and then take over entire countries
[119:32] >> and become a monopoly. Yeah. You know,
[119:34] like what was going on with Microsoft in
[119:36] the 1990s? You remember all those?
[119:37] Remember that?
[119:38] >> No. What was how were they taking over?
[119:40] >> Bill Gates was a maniac. Like before,
[119:43] but before people think of Bill Gates
[119:44] now, well, now I think CO kind of ruined
[119:47] his people's impressions of him because
[119:49] now they think of him as a vaccine
[119:50] pusher,
[119:51] >> but and also as a philanthrop capitalist
[119:54] where he's doing philanthropy that makes
[119:56] millions and millions of dollars for
[119:57] him.
[119:57] >> Didn't he also put out that anti-protein
[119:59] film? Wasn't that him?
[120:01] >> Do you know what I'm talking about? I
[120:02] think Bill Gates
[120:03] >> protein film
[120:04] >> Bill Gates, correct me if I'm wrong, but
[120:06] Bill Gates wife is vegan, I believe, and
[120:09] he funded like some Netflix documentary
[120:11] all on how like bodybuilders get huge
[120:13] without
[120:14] >> thinking about James Cameron.
[120:15] >> Am I thinking about James Cameron? I
[120:17] think
[120:17] >> I know James Cameron's wife is uh vegan.
[120:20] >> I might be mixing them up. You might
[120:21] >> You're talking about Game Changers that
[120:23] the vegan documentary.
[120:24] >> Yes. Yeah. With the huge jacked guy
[120:27] being like, "I never touch protein."
[120:28] Yeah, it turns out the the the problem I
[120:32] think if you're looking at that from an
[120:34] ethical perspective and you're saying
[120:36] factory farming is bad, I'm on your
[120:38] page. I'm with you.
[120:39] >> But that had an agenda.
[120:40] >> But yeah, it was a clear agenda. Also
[120:42] just not accurate.
[120:44] >> Anyway, I pirated your thing on Bill
[120:45] Gates though. Sorry.
[120:46] >> So the point was during the 1990s, he
[120:50] was
[120:52] there was all these trials where they
[120:55] had these monopolistic practices, okay?
[120:57] And they were buying up competition or
[121:00] destroying competition.
[121:02] These uh
[121:03] >> just anybody that developed any
[121:04] computer, anything.
[121:05] >> Yeah. Any anybody developed browsers
[121:07] that competed with, you know, Microsoft
[121:09] Windows stuff.
[121:11] >> Yeah. Here is landmark 1990s trials
[121:13] refer to United States versus Microsoft
[121:15] Corporation. Massive antirust lawsuit
[121:18] filed by US Department of Justice in 20
[121:21] states. Key elements included browser
[121:23] war integration, uh the antirust ruling
[121:26] and the appellet settlement.
[121:28] >> And so everybody in the 90s thought of
[121:31] him as this guy who is this like
[121:34] ruthless capitalist that was trying to
[121:36] destroy all the competition.
[121:37] >> Okay.
[121:38] >> So he kind of reinvented himself.
[121:39] >> Gotcha.
[121:40] >> And what the way he reinvented himself
[121:42] is first of all in he donated an
[121:45] enormous amount of money to the media.
[121:48] So to NBC, CBS, CNN, all these different
[121:50] they gave them hundreds of millions of
[121:51] dollars
[121:52] >> just to fluff them
[121:53] >> just to kind of say, "Guys, I'm your
[121:55] friend.
[121:55] >> I'm your buddy over here."
[121:57] >> And then he developed the Bill and
[121:58] Melinda Gates Foundation and they they
[122:01] were really concerned with global
[122:03] health.
[122:03] >> Oh my god, dude. Do you know what they
[122:06] did [ __ ] in the Kabor Basa Delta with
[122:08] their mosquito nets? Why would you? But
[122:10] um do you know what I'm talking about at
[122:12] all?
[122:12] >> No. What they do,
[122:13] >> dude? I'm going to go on a [ __ ] tie
[122:15] here. Please do. Okay, so the Bill and
[122:17] Melinda Gates Foundation decided that
[122:19] there was too much malaria in Africa,
[122:22] right? Which you and I could probably
[122:23] agree with. Malaria is bad. So what did
[122:25] they do? They gave all of these people
[122:27] living in tribal villages. I'm totally
[122:30] pirated your thing. I'm sorry, but I'm
[122:31] going to go on a [ __ ] rant here. They
[122:33] gave all these people living in the
[122:34] Kaborasa Delta, which is the bread
[122:37] basket of the Zambzi Valley, meaning
[122:39] like where more fish are born. It's a
[122:41] it's a nursery for fish, right? Not just
[122:44] there, but this is a good micro example.
[122:45] They gave millions of mosquito nets out
[122:47] to all these people to avoid malaria.
[122:49] Guess what the people who are starving
[122:51] to death did with their mosquito nets.
[122:54] >> They fished with them.
[122:55] >> They fished with them. Mosquito net has
[122:57] a hole that is so small that a mosquito
[123:00] can't get through. So guess what? These
[123:01] mosquito nets now indiscriminately catch
[123:04] tiny baby fish in areas like Kaborabasa
[123:07] where the fish go to breed and reproduce
[123:10] and populate. So now all of a sudden you
[123:12] have thousands and thousands of people
[123:14] that have been handed nets that have
[123:16] been living one way for hundreds of
[123:18] thousands of years. They don't give a
[123:19] [ __ ] about malaria. They have their own
[123:20] way of dealing with malaria. They sit in
[123:22] smoky huts at night. They sleep with a
[123:23] campfire. Everything else. Yes, they
[123:25] still get malaria, some of them, but
[123:27] they deal with it their own way. Bill
[123:29] Melinda Gates Foundation come in, hand
[123:30] out millions of mosquito nets,
[123:32] absolutely collapse the entire
[123:36] population of fish that feed millions of
[123:39] people because these people just take
[123:40] the nets and fish all the baby fish out
[123:42] so that those fish don't grow up to make
[123:44] substantial protein sources. So now
[123:46] these wonderful philanthropists that
[123:48] have given out millions of nets have
[123:50] destroyed an ecosystem, crashed a fish
[123:53] population, and created widespread
[123:54] hunger for people that otherwise had
[123:56] plenty of resources. All because they
[123:59] were trying to help with their mosquito
[124:00] nets.
[124:01] >> Oh god.
[124:02] >> It's just like it's a [ __ ] disaster,
[124:04] dude. They've taken such a rich and
[124:06] important part of Africa, one of the
[124:08] most abundant freshwater fisheries in
[124:10] the world, and destroyed it because
[124:12] they're helping by handing out mosquito
[124:14] nets.
[124:15] >> Good. Yeah, I know. Sorry, I told you
[124:17] I'd go on a rant, but it's like it's so
[124:19] bad what's happened over there. And
[124:21] they're still giving out mosquito nets,
[124:22] by the way. And you literally watch
[124:24] these guys line up, take a mosquito net,
[124:26] and it never goes in their house. It
[124:28] goes straight to catching fish that are
[124:30] this big for them to eat.
[124:31] >> Oh god.
[124:32] >> Sorry. I mean, this is crazy.
[124:34] >> I just feel bad for them, too. It's
[124:36] like, can't you just double up the net
[124:38] thing and just get them other nets, too?
[124:41] Like say, "Hey guys,
[124:42] >> that's what happened 2018. They got the
[124:43] new nets."
[124:44] >> Oh, is that what it says?
[124:45] >> That's what That's looking at the thing.
[124:47] >> Yeah. Find out other information.
[124:49] >> It just totally ruined crashed the
[124:51] ecosystem. It completely crashed it and
[124:53] it created widespread hunger in a place
[124:55] that had no hunger.
[124:56] >> So now you have people with malaria and
[124:58] hunger.
[125:00] >> God.
[125:00] >> And it's like done from a place of good
[125:02] intent. Or maybe it isn't. And I think
[125:04] that's where you were going. But
[125:05] >> I don't think it is. I think it's a it's
[125:08] a ruse. And I think there what a lot of
[125:11] it is is this thing like we are doing
[125:14] philanthropy. Yeah. But then you you go,
[125:16] "Oh, but you're profiting. You're making
[125:18] hundreds of millions of dollars from
[125:20] this philanthropy." Right. Yeah. you're
[125:21] buying goodwill
[125:22] >> and you're also on television promoting
[125:24] vaccines. Like why are you uh you're a
[125:27] guy who didn't even graduate college?
[125:29] >> Yeah.
[125:29] >> Like I don't I mean I don't even know if
[125:31] you made it out of high school. Like
[125:32] he's a weird guy. Like he's obviously
[125:34] very smart.
[125:35] >> Yeah, of course.
[125:36] >> But why? You're not a health expert.
[125:38] Why? And you look like [ __ ] Like why
[125:40] are you promoting health? Like this is
[125:42] crazy. Global health. Like just a
[125:44] [ __ ] weird guy, man. Yeah. The
[125:46] weirdest thing have you ever seen that
[125:48] you know he was obviously um friends
[125:51] with Jeffrey Epstein or communicated
[125:52] with him and had some sort of a
[125:54] relationship. Yes. Oh, I didn't know
[125:55] that.
[125:55] >> Oh yeah, it's popular. Well known.
[125:58] >> I feel like everybody is connected to
[126:00] Epstein now. Like I've lost a lot of
[126:02] people. But the craziest conversation
[126:05] was there was a woman who was asking him
[126:07] did he regret his relationship with
[126:09] Jeffrey Epstein. and he's just trying to
[126:11] say that the only reason why he talked
[126:13] to Jeffrey Epstein because Jeffrey
[126:14] Ebstein was going to he was going to
[126:16] donate money to his philanthropy and all
[126:19] the different things that he's involved
[126:20] in,
[126:21] >> but it didn't work out and I do regret
[126:23] it. And and and
[126:24] >> and she said, "Did did you I forget what
[126:27] her question was." He But Gates says,
[126:30] "Well, uh he's dead now, so there's
[126:34] that."
[126:36] There's something about it is you got to
[126:37] be careful. like he's it's like a weird
[126:40] like veiled threat. It's very odd the
[126:43] way he answers the question.
[126:45] >> Yeah.
[126:46] >> Essentially saying that I'm I'm reading
[126:49] it like like you got whacked. Yeah.
[126:51] >> Like that's what I'm reading.
[126:52] >> Interesting. Weird.
[126:54] >> Like find that that
[126:55] >> I was Well, you find that I was talking
[126:57] to some buddies about this, you know,
[126:59] just like standard bro chat. If if
[127:01] Epstein happened today, right, and you
[127:03] had no knowledge of the weird stuff
[127:05] going on on the island, like you would
[127:07] be invited. You know what I mean? They'd
[127:08] be like, "Hey, Joe."
[127:09] >> Dude, they they did invite me.
[127:10] >> Oh, really?
[127:11] >> Oh, yeah. In 2017, a guy was I'm like,
[127:14] not to specifically, but to meet
[127:17] Epstein.
[127:17] >> But that's what I'm saying.
[127:18] >> And I was like, what?
[127:19] >> If that happened today, some guy came to
[127:21] me. Oh, sorry.
[127:23] >> Yeah, let's do it. reported at that time
[127:26] uh that you had a number of meetings
[127:28] with Jeffrey Epstein who when you met
[127:31] him 10 years ago he was convicted of
[127:34] soliciting prostitution from minors.
[127:37] What did you know about him when you
[127:39] were meeting with him as you've said
[127:41] yourself in the hopes of raising money?
[127:44] >> Uh you know I had dinners with him. Uh I
[127:48] regret doing that. He had relationships
[127:52] with uh people he said you know would
[127:55] give to global health which is a uh
[127:57] interest I have you know not nearly
[127:59] enough philanthropy goes in that
[128:01] direction uh you know those meetings
[128:04] were were a mistake they didn't result
[128:06] in uh what he purported and I cut them
[128:10] off you know that goes back a long time
[128:13] ago now uh there's you know so there's
[128:15] nothing new on that
[128:16] >> it was reported that you continue to
[128:18] meet with him over several years. Um,
[128:22] and that, in other words, a number of
[128:23] meetings. Um, what did you do when you
[128:27] found out about his background?
[128:30] >> Well,
[128:32] and you know, I've said I regretted
[128:34] having those dinners. Uh, and there's
[128:37] nothing absolutely nothing new on that.
[128:39] >> Is there a lesson for you, for anyone
[128:43] else looking looking at this?
[128:45] >> Well, he's dead. So, uh, you know, in
[128:49] general, you always have to be careful,
[128:51] uh,
[128:53] and you know, the, you know, I'm I'm
[128:56] very proud of what we've done in
[128:58] philanthropy, very proud of the work of
[128:59] the foundation.
[129:01] >> Listen, first of all,
[129:03] >> it's a record scratcher.
[129:04] >> You have billions of dollars, right? And
[129:08] this guy didn't give you money for
[129:09] years,
[129:10] >> right? And you didn't give you money for
[129:11] years. You kept meeting him.
[129:13] >> What about your money? Like, what is
[129:15] what is he going to give you? How much
[129:16] is he how much does he have? He probably
[129:18] >> compared to Bill Gates,
[129:19] >> but he also probably doesn't have a
[129:20] fraction of what you have, right? So,
[129:22] like if like Elon started hitting me up
[129:25] to donate money to something, I'll be
[129:27] like, "Hey, [ __ ] why don't you you
[129:28] like
[129:28] >> dude, do you know how much money you
[129:29] have?
[129:30] >> So much money. Why would you Why would
[129:31] you ask?
[129:31] >> I'm the wrong guy."
[129:32] >> If he kept meeting with me for years,
[129:34] for years to try to get me to donate.
[129:36] Like, it's kind of similar, right? This
[129:38] is what we're talking about. He's a
[129:40] billionaire, right? Like hundreds of
[129:42] billions of dollars. Like,
[129:43] >> none of it makes any sense. The guy was
[129:45] providing a party for rich people.
[129:47] That's what he was doing. He was
[129:48] providing a way where these rich people
[129:50] can [ __ ] let their hair down and have
[129:53] a good old time and do coke or whatever
[129:55] they did.
[129:55] >> That's all it was really, right? It was
[129:57] just a come. But the party had no rules
[129:59] and that's what makes it
[130:01] >> I'm just guessing. I'm just guessing.
[130:03] But I had a guy who tried to get me to
[130:04] meet him in 2017.
[130:06] >> In LA or where?
[130:07] >> Well, I was in LA when he reached out to
[130:10] me. Epstein appeared to have drafted
[130:12] himself
[130:13] claiming Gates had Oh, yeah.
[130:16] >> Like he wrote it to himself,
[130:18] >> right? This is an email that Epstein
[130:20] appears to have drafted to himself
[130:22] claiming that Gates had contracted an
[130:23] STI from encounters with Russian girls
[130:26] and hid antibiotics from Melinda. Gates
[130:29] said the emails were never sent and are
[130:31] false.
[130:32] >> His spokesman called them absolutely
[130:34] absurd. So absurd that someone could get
[130:38] an STD from a Russian girl.
[130:41] >> Gates has separately admitted to affairs
[130:42] with two Russian women
[130:44] >> and with a Microsoft employee, but says
[130:46] none of them were conted to Epstein or
[130:49] his victims.
[130:50] >> Some people say those emails were like a
[130:51] journal he was keeping
[130:53] >> like email himself. They were he was he
[130:56] wrote on an iPad all the time
[130:57] apparently. That's why the typos were so
[130:59] bad and he just liked email, you know.
[131:01] It's you know.
[131:02] >> Well, I mean imagine that's your
[131:03] journal. But why would you do that? Why
[131:05] would you make up a story about a guy
[131:08] having STDs? I think more likely because
[131:10] so there was a rumor and this is an
[131:13] unsubstantiated rumor. I want to be real
[131:14] clear that that Ebstein was trying to
[131:18] blackmail Gates with some story about a
[131:21] bridge player that he was having an
[131:24] affair with. Really hot Russian bridge
[131:26] player.
[131:27] >> I also think they've intentionally
[131:28] flooded the internet with so much
[131:31] misinformation
[131:32] >> perhaps. But my point was if he could
[131:35] have drafted that email, which was never
[131:37] sent Yeah. and then sent the draft to
[131:40] Bill Gates or showed it to him.
[131:42] >> Yeah.
[131:42] >> And say, "What do you think about this?"
[131:44] Cuz I could just
[131:45] >> If you don't Yeah.
[131:47] >> How about you shut the [ __ ] up? How
[131:48] about you give me some money?
[131:50] >> How about you, you know,
[131:52] >> There was a bunch of Well, there was a
[131:53] bunch of people that gave him a lot of
[131:55] money.
[131:55] >> They gave Epstein a lot of money.
[131:56] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. In fact, uh, the guy,
[131:58] the Victoria Secrets guy gave him a
[132:00] house. He gave him a house
[132:02] >> control of 100% of his finances. So it
[132:05] wasn't just he gave it to him.
[132:06] >> Oh 100%.
[132:07] >> Taking it or you know and he goes like I
[132:09] didn't know what he was doing.
[132:10] >> Wait, so did Epstein fun that house?
[132:12] Right.
[132:12] >> Did he fund the Victoria Secret guy to
[132:13] start Victoria Secret?
[132:14] >> No, no, no.
[132:16] >> That's how he got involved after that
[132:18] guy's uh this goes real deep. So
[132:20] Columbus, this guy got uh he was going
[132:22] to go to talk to the IRS about
[132:24] specifically what I don't know. 1984,
[132:26] but he was like the tax guy for that
[132:27] company. He was uh murdered in a mob hit
[132:30] style hit.
[132:31] >> Dude, this is why I like this podcast.
[132:32] I'm just like an animal nerd. I like
[132:34] talking about snakes and I'm like
[132:35] finding out about Victoria Secret,
[132:37] Epstein and [ __ ] as well.
[132:38] >> Well, I mean, it's what the human animal
[132:41] does.
[132:42] >> The the human animal when it's in these
[132:45] very controlled spaces where just so
[132:48] let's look at it this way. So imagine
[132:50] you're a guy who's especially if you're
[132:52] a nerd and you know you you were never
[132:56] really
[132:57] >> good with women when you're in high
[132:59] school and college and then all a sudden
[133:01] you have literally a hundred billion
[133:02] dollars and you could just get
[133:04] prostitutes anytime you want and I guess
[133:06] if you get the really high-end ones they
[133:08] know how to shut the [ __ ] up and if you
[133:10] you have this friend of yours who was in
[133:12] the MSAD and that guy can get the best
[133:13] hookers and he's got a [ __ ] island.
[133:15] You go to the island it's the best.
[133:16] Yeah. We fly, we talk about
[133:18] philanthropy, we [ __ ]
[133:19] >> Yeah, it makes sense. I mean, that's
[133:20] what I was saying before. It's like
[133:22] you're just like, it's just a party for
[133:23] a bunch of dorks who can come here with
[133:25] a lot of money.
[133:25] >> But there's also some weird science
[133:27] connection with him. And that's what
[133:28] where it gets really odd is that there's
[133:30] he
[133:32] got that ranch in New Mexico so he could
[133:36] be close to the guys that were working
[133:38] at Los Alamos who were famously not
[133:40] making much money. So, he's around these
[133:43] guys and he's talking about going into
[133:45] business with them and and giving them
[133:48] this chance to make an insane amount of
[133:49] money. And this is what he did with Eric
[133:52] Weinstein. With Eric Weinstein, he
[133:53] contacted him and they had a meeting and
[133:55] he was trying to get Eric Weinstein to
[133:57] do something with him. And if Eric did
[133:59] it, he had the potential to make an
[134:00] enormous amount of money. And Eric is
[134:03] very wise and he he just didn't buy him
[134:05] from the start. He's like, "This guy's a
[134:06] construct." He's like
[134:08] >> everything about him. He's like he
[134:09] doesn't know anything about finance.
[134:10] Like he was talking to him. He's like,
[134:11] "This guy's a construct. He's not this
[134:13] is not a real finance guy."
[134:14] >> Yeah.
[134:14] >> He's like, "There's something going on
[134:15] here."
[134:15] >> The Wheeler and Dealer. So, wait, what
[134:17] was the science they were working on?
[134:19] >> A bunch of different physicists were
[134:21] connected to him. Einstein Epstein
[134:24] reportedly hoped to develop super race
[134:26] of humans with his DNA.
[134:27] >> Wow.
[134:29] >> Wow.
[134:29] >> What is that from? What?
[134:31] >> New York Times.
[134:31] >> That's the New York Times.
[134:32] >> I got a different one of the article,
[134:34] but that's the original reporting was
[134:35] the New York Times.
[134:36] >> That is crazy. But he had a bunch of
[134:41] relationships with some very impressive
[134:43] scientists and physicists and um also
[134:47] oddly connected to the whole UAP world.
[134:50] The whole Los Alamos thing is weird
[134:52] because the the thing is that he by
[134:56] buying that ranch in New Mexico put him
[134:58] close to Los Alamos which was in New
[135:01] Mexico and he then he had access to all
[135:03] these scientists that were
[135:05] >> famously underpaid. So these guys were
[135:08] not making much money and he was this
[135:10] incredibly wealthy guy through no way
[135:12] that anybody could ever rationally
[135:14] explain.
[135:15] >> It was all weird and you know and who
[135:17] knows what he was trying to get them to
[135:18] do.
[135:19] >> He was probably just one of those guys.
[135:20] I mean you never ended up meeting him
[135:22] but he was probably just incredibly
[135:23] likable as a con man. Do you know what I
[135:25] mean? You probably sat in a room with
[135:26] him and you're like wow this guy's
[135:28] really great. Like maybe I should give
[135:29] him some money. Maybe I should like what
[135:31] a cool guy and he's just a dirt bag
[135:33] under the, you know, under the veil.
[135:34] We're just speculating, but maybe maybe
[135:36] also if you have a bunch of really hot
[135:39] Russian chicks that are hanging out with
[135:40] you, you'll do it. You don't need to be
[135:42] that charming.
[135:44] >> That's so true. It's so true.
[135:46] >> You're a billionaire with a bunch of hot
[135:47] Russian chicks.
[135:48] >> Yeah.
[135:48] >> And then there's a bunch of people that
[135:49] are willing to hang out with
[135:50] billionaires just cuz I've seen it where
[135:53] people just get enamored by the fact
[135:55] that someone's insanely wealthy and they
[135:56] want to go to the party at their house
[135:58] like
[135:59] >> But all those people do is work like
[136:00] crazy. Do you know what I mean? They're
[136:01] not fun. I mean, I don't know. I don't
[136:03] know that many. He was That's true. That
[136:05] guy partied hard. Yeah, good point. Good
[136:08] point.
[136:08] >> Yeah. To to be a billionaire to I mean
[136:10] in most cases you what you have to do is
[136:12] be insanely driven and you have to be
[136:14] that guy that works 18 20 hours a day
[136:16] and you know
[136:17] >> and give up all the other things.
[136:19] >> Yeah. You have to give up all your time
[136:20] that becomes your whole life.
[136:22] >> Yeah.
[136:22] >> And I but I think that's also why they
[136:24] wanted a guy like that that could
[136:26] provide them this is how wine Eric
[136:28] Weinstein described it. He said he
[136:30] provided them with experiences. I
[136:31] believe yeah that was his and I think
[136:33] he's right. I think that makes sense.
[136:35] >> That's why I mean my one and only
[136:36] billionaire friend is that anatomy that
[136:38] Indian guy I was mentioning. I think
[136:40] it's so cool that he's built this
[136:41] gigantic wildlife rescue.
[136:42] >> That is pretty dope.
[136:44] >> That's a great thing to do with money.
[136:46] >> He's just like he's a nerd like me. And
[136:47] if he going to be like thanks a lot but
[136:49] like he's just an animal nerd. Do you
[136:50] know what I mean? He's going to be like
[136:51] he just like he just loves animals and
[136:54] conservation and he's like I have
[136:55] generational wealth that my you know it
[136:58] came from his family. His family's like
[136:59] fifth or sixth generation of having huge
[137:01] industry and he's like okay so with my
[137:03] excess money I'm going to rescue animals
[137:05] instead of do other you know space it's
[137:09] I mean for me it's amazing
[137:10] >> yeah I mean there's no look there's
[137:11] nothing wrong with space race stuff too
[137:13] it's all fascinating and it's but it's
[137:15] just
[137:16] >> it's and I get it from a perspective of
[137:19] people who think there's not enough
[137:20] money in the world and then why do these
[137:22] people have so much money and they
[137:24] should give all their money away and
[137:25] it's like okay but you could do that all
[137:28] the way down to like $100,000 a year if
[137:30] you really wanted to do it. Especially
[137:32] when you compare yourself to everyone
[137:33] else in the world.
[137:34] >> That's right. That's right. You know,
[137:35] we're in the just living in this country
[137:37] alone, we're in the 1%.
[137:39] >> Yeah. Most people I think 1% of the
[137:42] world, we looked this up, it's like 50
[137:44] $60,000. If you make more than that,
[137:46] you're in the 1% of Earth,
[137:47] >> right?
[137:48] >> And that's the majority of people in the
[137:49] United States. It's crazy. So like
[137:51] >> Yeah. You're barely getting by in
[137:52] America and you're in the 1% of the
[137:54] world.
[137:54] >> Exactly. Yeah.
[137:55] >> Which is wild.
[137:56] >> It's wild.
[137:56] >> It's really wild.
[137:57] >> It really is. Yeah.
[137:58] >> Yeah. We're We're the weirdest animal.
[138:00] You should study us.
[138:01] >> I should. Well, I learned a lot today.
[138:03] I'll tell you what.
[138:04] >> Yeah. But we're not fun. Like you you
[138:07] you study us and you go, "Oh god, what
[138:10] what are they [ __ ] doing?" Whereas
[138:12] you study animals, you're like, "Oh,
[138:14] [ __ ] cool.
[138:15] >> They're way cooler. They're way more
[138:16] interesting. More teeth, more claws,
[138:18] more slithering."
[138:18] >> Well, it's also just the fact that
[138:20] there's so much variety and that they
[138:23] are real and that they are some of them
[138:25] are so strange. How about that new
[138:27] monkey that they just found in the Congo
[138:28] >> with the lipstick?
[138:29] >> Crazy orange his orange mouth.
[138:32] >> Yeah, it looks like he just ate like one
[138:33] of them freeze pops.
[138:34] >> Yeah, exactly. Like your kid after Yeah.
[138:36] 100. Dude, it's so cool. And new primate
[138:39] species coming out still. Like I love
[138:41] that. I think it's so great.
[138:43] >> Do you believe in the Bondo ape? Do you
[138:45] think that thing is
[138:47] >> Yes and no. Like there's probably likely
[138:50] a group of chimpanzees, do you know what
[138:52] I mean? that that just are more
[138:54] aggressive that are a social construct
[138:56] >> and are larger
[138:57] >> and are larger but it doesn't mean that
[138:59] it's like this you know because they
[139:00] have the whole thing about them being
[139:01] lion killing apes and all this other
[139:03] stuff there's probably a a family troop
[139:06] a group and you know they're in war now
[139:08] have you read about this
[139:10] >> yeah so I think that the Bondo ape is
[139:13] real in the sense of there is an
[139:14] probably an isolated larger group of
[139:16] chimps that just act like chimps that
[139:18] have got
[139:18] >> the thing about this chimp though is
[139:20] they said that their skulls are
[139:21] different
[139:22] >> yeah the cran ial ridge. Yeah. Yeah.
[139:24] Makes sense. Things with stronger jaw
[139:26] muscles have a cranial ridge. You know,
[139:28] you see it in hyenas. You see it in
[139:29] things like that. Gorillas.
[139:30] >> Yeah. Gorillas. Yeah. Exactly. It's just
[139:32] more more surface area for the muscle to
[139:34] attach to. Basically,
[139:35] >> it's just like that would be so
[139:37] fascinating to find those thing. And
[139:39] that's with you know that Carl Arman guy
[139:42] spent his whole life
[139:43] >> hunting and reading rumors and
[139:45] >> but at least he got some photos unlike
[139:47] that poor [ __ ] that was looking for
[139:48] the sloth.
[139:49] >> Yeah. Still still trying. Yeah. Like he
[139:51] got some camera trap photos of them and
[139:53] you know
[139:54] >> No. And and they're bipedal in the
[139:56] photos, right? Didn't you have a lot of
[139:58] them? Which chimps are? You know,
[139:59] they'll walk on hind legs and stuff.
[140:01] Yeah. It's pretty cool.
[140:02] >> It is pretty cool. And then there's a
[140:03] photo of the one that they killed that
[140:05] was at the airport. Do you know you ever
[140:06] see that one?
[140:07] >> I don't think so.
[140:07] >> Oh, it's crazy.
[140:08] >> At the airport.
[140:09] >> Yeah. There's a a small airport and they
[140:11] they killed this one uh enormous
[140:14] chimpanzeee. So, there's these two guys
[140:16] that are standing with it. It's hard to
[140:18] tell how big the guys are, but if
[140:19] they're normalsized human beings, that's
[140:21] the biggest [ __ ] chimpanzeee I've
[140:22] ever seen in my life.
[140:24] >> Look at that thing.
[140:25] >> They're amazing.
[140:26] >> Look at that. I mean, the guy is You
[140:28] could tell by perspective that the guy's
[140:30] he's got his hand on it, so he's right
[140:32] behind it.
[140:33] >> Yeah. Yeah. It's not a force
[140:34] perspective.
[140:34] >> And his his arm is not extended, so it's
[140:36] not fake. And that chimpanzeee looks way
[140:39] bigger than him.
[140:40] >> Way bigger. Yeah. It's amazing.
[140:42] >> So, they think that is one of them.
[140:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. Like I said, I I think it's
[140:46] real in the sense Oh, yeah. This this
[140:48] famous photo.
[140:49] >> See, but that one just to me looks like
[140:50] a chimpanzeee. That just looks like a
[140:52] big chimp.
[140:53] >> Yeah.
[140:54] >> Where the one that's sitting down, that
[140:55] looks way bigger than those guys. Like
[140:57] the size of its head is [ __ ]
[140:59] enormous. Do you know that there's one
[141:01] river where um I'm trying to remember
[141:04] exactly how this works, but basically
[141:05] there's one area where the rivers
[141:07] collide where the chimps and the
[141:10] gorillas go into conflict with each
[141:13] other over this one river spot. Do you
[141:15] know what I'm talking about? Have you
[141:16] ever heard about this? Yeah, it's really
[141:17] interesting. So, somewhere in the Congo,
[141:19] there's this particular river, and I
[141:21] think it's called the Cross River. Can't
[141:23] remember now. And it's an area that the
[141:26] chimps will come on one side and the
[141:28] gorillas will come down on the other and
[141:29] they will have they'll like throw stuff
[141:31] at each other across the river and like
[141:33] it's like a whole thing. It's been
[141:35] documented and these guys will there's
[141:36] sort of these like two clans of great
[141:39] apes that come and communicate across
[141:41] the river and throw rocks and like show
[141:43] off to each other and then they kind of
[141:44] go back into the jungle. But it's been
[141:46] seen in this one particular river
[141:48] several times.
[141:49] >> Wow.
[141:50] >> Yeah. It's like the real Planet of the
[141:51] Age.
[141:52] >> What are the chimp wars? What are they
[141:53] are they fighting over food territory?
[141:56] >> It unless I'm mistaken it's relatively
[141:57] unknown but it's it's sort of a social
[142:00] construct. So if you think of humans for
[142:03] example once our population gets too
[142:05] large and we have too many men and not
[142:07] enough women we fight right we've seen
[142:09] that throughout history. Roman times
[142:11] Mongolian times you name it. So there
[142:13] was one troop of chimps that all lived
[142:17] together in relative harmony and then
[142:19] two leaders basically sprung up and
[142:21] there was a a lack of enough females.
[142:24] And so all of a sudden this this clan
[142:26] divided into two clans and now they're
[142:28] at constant war with each other. Like
[142:30] they live in the same relative
[142:31] territory, but they'll come in with come
[142:33] into contact with each other and go to
[142:35] war over who's going to be the leader of
[142:37] the the alpha troop, the mega troop.
[142:39] >> Wow. And it's been going for maybe a
[142:41] year or two years now.
[142:42] >> [ __ ]
[142:43] >> Yeah. But how human is that?
[142:45] >> So human.
[142:46] >> Like to be like, "Okay, we're all part
[142:47] of this group. Like you and I don't like
[142:49] each other now. Like this is my side.
[142:51] That's your side. We're going to [ __ ]
[142:52] each other up."
[142:53] >> Study highlights friends with benefits
[142:55] relationship between gorillas and
[142:56] chimps. What? They're [ __ ] each
[142:58] other.
[142:58] >> No, it's younger ones hanging out. It
[143:00] says it's probably in the same area
[143:02] they're meeting. Pictures of them like
[143:03] in the same trees.
[143:04] >> Yeah, I think this is that river
[143:05] >> getting for fig they want figs out of
[143:06] these trees. Yeah, but friends with
[143:08] benefits generally
[143:09] >> with benefits are Yeah, I Yeah, I was
[143:11] looking for wording that got to what
[143:12] you're getting at.
[143:13] >> But you don't really say that with like
[143:15] your like why do you why do you go to
[143:17] dinner with Bob? Well, we're friends
[143:18] with benefits. Oh, you're [ __ ] Bob.
[143:20] >> Why did you start [ __ ] Bob, man?
[143:22] >> No, no, no. We just like figs, both of
[143:24] us. The chimpanzees, though. They caught
[143:26] them beating their chest, which is only
[143:28] something gorillas have ever seen.
[143:30] >> Oh, they're they're imitating them.
[143:32] >> Mimicking each other. Yeah. Isn't that
[143:34] cool?
[143:35] >> Yeah. I'm I'm sure you've seen that one
[143:37] um documentary, I think it's called
[143:39] Relentless Enemies, where there's a
[143:41] particular pride of lions that grew
[143:43] enormous because they're only eating
[143:45] water buffaloos. They got trapped on an
[143:46] island because the river changed paths.
[143:48] >> Yeah. Yeah. I I I remember what you're
[143:50] talking about. I don't know the
[143:51] documentary, but yeah, they're eating
[143:53] cape buffalo exclusively and the lions
[143:55] are just getting bigger and beefier and
[143:57] they're all fat and like Yeah, it's
[143:59] pretty cool.
[143:59] >> Well, they have to get bigger. the
[144:01] females are doing all the killing and so
[144:03] they're as big as male lions in other
[144:05] places and they're jacked and they don't
[144:07] have a choice
[144:08] >> because otherwise they're going to die
[144:09] while trying to hunt the the cape
[144:11] buffalo.
[144:11] >> Right. But so we're watching natural
[144:14] selection in real time because they just
[144:16] keep getting bigger and stronger.
[144:17] >> Yeah.
[144:18] >> And you know like these [ __ ] buffalo
[144:20] are enormous, man. They're jumping on
[144:22] these things and hanging on them and
[144:24] trying to drag them down to the ground.
[144:25] >> The black death. That's what they call
[144:27] the cape buffalo. Yeah.
[144:28] >> Those [ __ ] are so scary. So
[144:30] mean, so scary. Yeah. And they'll charge
[144:32] so unprovoked. Like they'll just turn
[144:35] and come anytime. But it's uh
[144:37] >> it's crazy how you have that basically
[144:39] insular dwarfism and insular gigantism
[144:41] throughout animals no matter like
[144:43] >> Yeah.
[144:44] >> animals stuck on an island. They're
[144:45] either going to get big or they're going
[144:46] to get small.
[144:47] >> Well, lizards usually get big on an
[144:48] island, right?
[144:49] >> Or tortoises, right? Like the gapagos or
[144:51] the seells. Yeah.
[144:53] >> Why? Why do they get bigger?
[144:54] >> No predators, unlimited resources.
[144:57] >> Yeah. So all of a sudden, you know,
[144:59] you're a little tortoise that's this
[145:00] big, and every time you get to this big,
[145:02] something spots you from the air and
[145:03] eats you or whatever it happens to be.
[145:05] But now you're stuck on an island with
[145:07] all the grass and fruit you could ever
[145:08] eat, and nobody wants to eat you. So you
[145:11] just get bigger and bigger to out
[145:12] compete each other.
[145:13] >> Look at that face.
[145:16] >> Yeah. Look at those guys.
[145:18] >> Just imagine that's the only thing you
[145:19] can eat is something three times bigger
[145:21] than you
[145:22] >> and can [ __ ] kill you.
[145:24] >> That kills a lot of lions, by the way.
[145:25] >> Oh, yeah. Well, they kick you in the
[145:27] face when you're trying to take them out
[145:29] and then that's it. Your jaw is broken
[145:30] and you never eat again
[145:32] >> and you starve to death slowly.
[145:34] >> I love the little the little cub there
[145:36] covered in blood. Look at that.
[145:37] >> It's a really cool documentary, but the
[145:40] it seems so weird when you're looking at
[145:42] the size of the females.
[145:44] >> They just look exaggerated to the point
[145:46] where they they look fake. They look
[145:48] like Hulk lions.
[145:49] >> It's awesome.
[145:50] >> It's very cool.
[145:51] >> Very very cool.
[145:52] >> Nature is such a wild thing, man. And I
[145:54] mean, it's such an an amazing,
[145:56] fascinating, endless resource of just
[145:59] cool [ __ ] to see.
[146:01] >> And our understanding of it changes all
[146:03] the time. Every animal theory we've ever
[146:06] had evolves and changes as we learn
[146:08] more, which is what makes it so fun cuz
[146:10] it's so dynamic. It's not a static
[146:12] thing.
[146:13] >> Well, it's just crazy that we keep
[146:14] finding new things like the new primate.
[146:16] >> See, find that little new monkey that
[146:18] they found
[146:18] >> with the orange lips.
[146:19] >> He's really cool. He's in the Congo.
[146:22] >> Well, in the Congo is another place.
[146:23] It's like what?
[146:24] >> Yeah.
[146:25] >> You ever you I've seen sure you've seen
[146:26] that BBC documentary on the Congo um
[146:29] from God, it was like the early 2000s.
[146:32] >> But um look at him. What a weird looking
[146:34] guy.
[146:35] >> So cool.
[146:36] >> So strange.
[146:37] >> There's a few lost primates out there
[146:39] too. Like species that we've seen once
[146:41] or twice that have never been seen since
[146:43] that.
[146:43] >> Like what?
[146:44] >> Um Miss Waldron's red colibus is one
[146:48] that comes to mind.
[146:49] >> It's called Miss Waldron's.
[146:50] >> I think it's called that. Or maybe it's
[146:51] just Waldron's red colibus. But it's a a
[146:53] colus monkey that there's like three or
[146:55] four museum specimens and no live
[146:57] specimens.
[146:59] >> Yeah.
[146:59] >> Really?
[147:00] >> Uh-huh. There's a few of those. Yeah.
[147:01] >> Whoa.
[147:02] >> Miss Waldron's. Yeah. Red colibus.
[147:04] >> Why is it called Miss Waldron?
[147:06] >> I don't know.
[147:07] >> Who's that lady?
[147:08] >> Good question.
[147:10] >> What do you have to do with this monkey
[147:11] lady?
[147:12] >> To West Africa. Previously described as
[147:14] subspecies. Not been cited since. Oh, I
[147:17] saw it for a second. And what's crazy is
[147:18] a lot of these animals, especially like
[147:20] these primates and essentially anything
[147:23] that lives in the Congo, it is in a
[147:26] place that's so scary and so dangerous
[147:28] to visit. Yeah.
[147:29] >> That it's not a lot of research being
[147:30] done.
[147:31] >> Well, that's always what I tell people
[147:32] when they're like, "Oh, well, you know,
[147:34] find these animals. Find that animals."
[147:35] Nobody's looking.
[147:36] >> It's too hard. The local people know
[147:38] they're there. Like these lost species
[147:40] are species that the people that hunt
[147:42] and eat them know they're there, but
[147:43] they have no communication to the
[147:44] outside or the scientific world. And you
[147:47] know, for you or I to go into that part
[147:49] of the Congo is probably a death
[147:51] sentence.
[147:53] >> Yeah.
[147:55] >> Yeah.
[147:55] >> But there's a lot of cool stuff out
[147:57] there.
[147:57] >> Are there any other animals that uh
[147:59] might be real that people think they've
[148:02] seen
[148:03] >> as far as like cryptids that could still
[148:05] be real?
[148:06] >> Weird ones.
[148:07] >> Oh man.
[148:07] >> Like the giant sloth or something like
[148:09] that.
[148:09] >> I mean, there's that whole like the
[148:10] dinosaur in the Congo thing that people
[148:12] always talk about. It's silly. It's not
[148:14] real.
[148:15] >> That one seems silly. I mean, I I can't
[148:16] think of any. I I think, you know, like
[148:18] >> David Cho went looking for that once.
[148:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. I actually That's one of
[148:21] your pods that I watched the whole
[148:22] thing. He was talking about that.
[148:25] >> David's crazy.
[148:26] >> Yeah. I can't think of any. But, you
[148:29] know, it's it's those rumors like
[148:32] there's a sloth. We've seen it. There's
[148:33] a Asian unicorn. We've seen it that if
[148:35] people don't follow, you never know.
[148:37] >> It's like you can you can absolutely be
[148:38] the tinfoil hack guy like I can be with
[148:40] the thyloine. But if you give up and
[148:42] don't look, you know, we never really
[148:44] know. And if it's going to be it'll
[148:47] probably be in a place like the Amazon
[148:50] or like the Congo, some enormous like
[148:52] the Isn't the Congo as wide as the
[148:56] contiguous North America?
[148:57] >> The country or the river?
[148:59] >> I think the the country of the Congo the
[149:02] the Congo the jungle of the Congo I
[149:04] think is almost as big as America.
[149:07] >> I did not know it was that large.
[149:08] >> Africa is [ __ ] huge.
[149:10] >> It's huge. If you see because United
[149:12] States imposed on Africa, you're like,
[149:14] "Oh my god, the continent of Africa is
[149:16] enormous."
[149:16] >> Well, that's what's squirly about maps,
[149:18] right? Especially like when you look at
[149:20] the globe, like everything's so
[149:21] distorted. Yeah.
[149:22] >> Which I don't understand why they do
[149:24] that.
[149:24] >> No.
[149:25] >> I've never had that explained to me in a
[149:27] way that like, oh, I get it.
[149:28] >> Or or timelines. Have you ever looked at
[149:30] how like time lines are drawn on the
[149:32] globe? Like like um you know, like the
[149:35] time zones,
[149:36] >> right?
[149:38] wiggly jigsaw puzzles and you're like
[149:40] why is that island in this time zone
[149:41] that's three slots over like it makes no
[149:44] sense to me
[149:44] >> doesn't make any sense
[149:46] >> um but like see if you can find the size
[149:49] of the Congo
[149:51] like if you see the size of the Congo
[149:53] versus I think it's almost as big as the
[149:55] United States
[149:56] >> in terms of I didn't realize that it's
[149:58] the same yeah there are there are these
[150:00] there's so many of these incredible
[150:02] remote
[150:02] >> it's thousands of miles wide
[150:07] Okay. So, if you took that and you
[150:09] shoved it Why doesn't Why isn't it Put
[150:12] it over. Right. The bottom one there is
[150:13] a better one.
[150:14] >> Bottom one. That one's better. So, not
[150:16] quite.
[150:17] >> Yeah. But it's still enormous.
[150:19] >> Yeah. It's like 35%.
[150:21] >> Yeah. And there's more political unrest
[150:23] there now, which means stuff shuts down.
[150:25] >> I mean, that's crazy. That's an enormous
[150:28] piece of Look how big that is.
[150:30] >> You get all of India, all of Eastern
[150:32] Europe, the United States, China.
[150:34] [ __ ] crazy. France, Spain. I mean,
[150:36] look at that.
[150:37] >> It's a big place.
[150:39] >> And the cradle of civilization.
[150:41] >> Yep.
[150:42] >> The cradle of humanity.
[150:44] >> And then also Egypt. That's that's also
[150:47] part of Africa.
[150:47] >> You know about the eclipse coming up
[150:49] there.
[150:49] >> What?
[150:50] >> Biggest one in history. 2027.
[150:52] >> Yeah.
[150:52] >> So in 2027, uh I want to say April,
[150:55] there'll be a six-minute total blackout
[150:57] in Egypt. It'll be the longest one inund
[151:01] or maybe 80 something years over the Red
[151:03] Sea in Egypt. Oh, that's when you want
[151:05] to go see the pyramids.
[151:06] >> Can you imagine?
[151:06] >> That's when the aliens are going to
[151:07] return.
[151:07] >> That's what I'm saying, dude. Can you
[151:09] imagine being at the pyramids and seeing
[151:10] a 6 minute long 6 minute 22 second?
[151:13] >> That's what it's going to look like.
[151:14] >> And it's in a place that never has
[151:16] [ __ ] clouds, so you're going to see
[151:17] it. I mean, they do, but not that time
[151:19] of year. So, yeah. Total solar eclipse
[151:21] for 6 and 1/2 minutes.
[151:23] >> So, we had one here. Um
[151:24] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[151:25] >> Two years ago. Was it two years ago,
[151:26] Jamie?
[151:27] >> Yeah.
[151:27] >> It was really cool.
[151:28] >> Was How long did that last you? I
[151:30] wasn't, but yeah,
[151:32] >> a couple Yeah, a couple minutes. What
[151:34] was really cool about it though was that
[151:36] all the animals got oddly silent before
[151:39] it happened.
[151:39] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[151:40] >> It was really weird.
[151:41] >> Like they know something's coming.
[151:42] >> Yeah. So we were outside waiting for it
[151:44] and as the you know as the eclipse
[151:47] starts taking place everything went
[151:49] quiet.
[151:49] >> Yeah.
[151:50] >> It was really wild.
[151:51] >> So crazy.
[151:52] >> And then while it's happening like whoa.
[151:53] And you you imagine like imagine living
[151:56] like thousands of years ago before
[151:58] anybody understood what the [ __ ] was
[151:59] going on
[152:00] >> and thinking like some wild magical
[152:03] moment had happened and that we entered
[152:05] into a new timeline or something. You'd
[152:07] have all crazy theories.
[152:08] >> I'd like grab somebody. We got to
[152:09] sacrifice them right away. Something's
[152:11] going on here.
[152:12] >> Get them to the pyramid. Cut their cut
[152:13] their heart out.
[152:13] >> Yeah. Straight away. It's also it's like
[152:16] so weird that the sun and the moon are
[152:20] the exact right distance that when they
[152:22] cross the moon just
[152:25] >> completely outlines where the I mean
[152:28] just fills in everything.
[152:30] >> Yeah.
[152:30] >> But you but the light around the outside
[152:32] the edges bizar like how is it perfectly
[152:34] sized like that?
[152:35] >> Have you seen Oh, sorry. Go ahead. No,
[152:37] it's just it's an incredible coincidence
[152:40] that it's the right distance and the
[152:42] right size because obviously the moon is
[152:44] so much smaller than the sun. Yeah. But
[152:46] perfectly distale
[152:49] >> so that when the sun and the moon is
[152:50] there, it's like boom. It's like the
[152:52] right size. Not like half of it.
[152:55] >> Yeah.
[152:55] >> You know, it's perfect.
[152:56] >> Yeah. Perfect.
[152:57] >> It just sits right in there.
[152:58] >> Yeah. It's like an Oreo and the cream.
[153:00] It's amazing.
[153:01] >> The really screw ball theories are that
[153:03] the moon is fake.
[153:05] >> I've never heard that one.
[153:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. The panda The panda fake has
[153:08] nothing on the moon being fake.
[153:10] >> The moon is fake.
[153:11] >> Yeah. Yeah. They think that the moon is
[153:13] uh artificial and that it was like put
[153:15] here by aliens and it's hollow.
[153:17] >> You're kidding.
[153:17] >> Oh, no. No, no.
[153:18] >> That's a good one.
[153:18] >> And that it was put here in order to
[153:20] sustain life on Earth to give us a
[153:22] stable orbit.
[153:24] >> I mean, it does do that.
[153:25] >> It does do that.
[153:26] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[153:27] >> Cuz imagine like how fragile life is on
[153:30] like we're really concerned about
[153:31] climate change. Like oh my god, the
[153:34] climate changes. Well, guess what? If
[153:35] the [ __ ] moon wasn't there, you'd be
[153:37] doomed.
[153:38] >> Oh, that just nothing.
[153:39] >> There's no way. You You need a big moon,
[153:42] too.
[153:42] >> Controls all of our oceans. And
[153:44] >> it's a quarter of the size of the Earth.
[153:47] It's a weird moon.
[153:48] >> Yeah.
[153:48] >> Like, I don't think there's another moon
[153:50] on in our entire solar system. That's
[153:53] comparable in terms of like the size and
[153:55] the relationship to the other planet.
[153:56] The planet itself.
[153:57] >> I think it's way bigger than every other
[153:59] moon on Let's find that out cuz I think
[154:01] that's pretty formulates the conspiracy
[154:03] theories like it was brought in.
[154:05] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. Interesting.
[154:06] >> There's also we did something some sort
[154:08] of experiment where we shot something at
[154:09] the moon and it rang like a bell for
[154:11] like a long time
[154:12] >> which is really weird. It's like it it
[154:15] echoed like way longer than we thought
[154:16] which
[154:17] >> of course could just be they didn't know
[154:19] what it would do cuz they had never done
[154:21] it before and they don't even know like
[154:24] >> fifth largest
[154:25] >> the fifth largest moon in the solar
[154:26] system with a diameter of the width of
[154:29] the contiguous United States. While it's
[154:30] dwarfed by Jupiter and Saturn's largest
[154:32] moons, it's uniquely massive compared to
[154:34] its parent planet. Yeah, that's what it
[154:36] is. Making the Earth moon system more
[154:38] like a double planet. Yeah. So, in
[154:40] relationship to the planet like it's so
[154:44] Jupiter and Saturn have huge moons, but
[154:46] Jupiter obviously is [ __ ] way bigger
[154:49] than us.
[154:49] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[154:50] >> Well, I can look at the size of Jupiter
[154:52] in comparison to the size of Earth.
[154:54] >> Yeah. So, it's the scale of the moon to
[154:56] the to the Earth. Yeah. Interesting.
[154:59] That is a wild conspiracy theory.
[155:01] Imagine just being the guy who's like,
[155:02] "You know what? Why don't we shoot at
[155:03] the moon? Let's give that a whirl. I'll
[155:05] see what happens."
[155:06] >> Yeah, they did something. I think I
[155:08] don't know what they shot it with. I
[155:10] think they sent a rocket to the moon
[155:12] just to measure the sound,
[155:14] >> like see what would happen.
[155:16] >> And it was odd. They they found it was
[155:18] odd the way it rang. It rang like a
[155:20] bell.
[155:21] >> But, you know, it's like they've never
[155:23] done that before. Like, and also, who
[155:26] knows what the [ __ ] center of the
[155:27] moon's made out of. Who knows where you
[155:29] hit it?
[155:29] >> Yeah, totally.
[155:30] >> You know, who knows? Maybe it's maybe
[155:32] you got some caves in there. It's
[155:33] hollow.
[155:34] >> Apollo experiments and the ringing
[155:35] effect.
[155:36] >> Uh the phrase moon rang like a bell
[155:39] comes from Apollo 12. In 1969 November,
[155:42] NASA deliberately crashed the lunar
[155:45] module's ascent stage onto the moon.
[155:48] Seis uh seismometers
[155:50] recorded a longlasting vibrations for
[155:53] nearly an hour. This description is a
[155:56] metaphor for how dry, cold lunar rock
[155:59] reverberates without water to dampen the
[156:01] shock waves. Interesting. Yeah. But
[156:03] retards and dorks say, "Oh, it's hollow.
[156:06] It's made by aliens." And there's also
[156:09] people that think that, you know,
[156:10] there's stuff there that like there's a
[156:12] monolith.
[156:13] >> Oh, there cities on the moon and all
[156:15] that on the other side that we can't see
[156:18] bases.
[156:19] >> Reddit's a wild place, huh?
[156:20] >> So, this is not even Reddit. This is
[156:23] like you got to go to like weird message
[156:25] boards. Crazy people go.
[156:27] >> It's deep crazy.
[156:28] >> Yeah. People that
[156:29] >> on wiki.
[156:30] >> What's that? Hollow moon. There the
[156:32] hollow moon closely related to spaceship
[156:34] moon. Ah that's the one. Our
[156:36] pseudocientific hypothesis that propose
[156:39] the earth's moon is either wholly hollow
[156:40] or otherwise contains a substantial
[156:43] interior space. No scientific evidence
[156:46] exists to support the idea. Let's go to
[156:48] go to spaceship moon because that seems
[156:50] even more interesting.
[156:51] >> Have a link for it. Yeah, spaceship
[156:54] moon. Come on, baby.
[156:59] >> The all these pseudo scientific the moon
[157:03] spaceship uh includes historical Oh, no,
[157:06] no, no.
[157:07] >> Yeah, it's not. I didn't know what that
[157:09] means.
[157:09] >> Spaceship moon theory.
[157:13] >> Try that theory.
[157:16] moon. A pseudocientific hypothesis
[157:18] proposing that Earth's moon is an
[157:20] artificial hollowedout satellite
[157:22] constructed by an alien civilization.
[157:24] Oh, boy. See,
[157:25] >> it's like the Death Star.
[157:26] >> There you go, bro.
[157:27] >> Well, you need to get into like space is
[157:29] fake. That's even better.
[157:30] >> Space is fake.
[157:31] >> Is popularized
[157:34] in 1970 by two Soviet scientists, Male
[157:38] Vasine and Alexander.
[157:41] How about that word?
[157:42] >> Sher sherkbuck.
[157:43] >> Sherbakov. Chuck Kerbachov,
[157:47] >> who suggested the moon was reinforced by
[157:50] an armored titanium hull to survive
[157:53] impacts.
[157:54] >> Oh man, people need more to do.
[157:56] >> No, they don't.
[157:57] >> You like that?
[157:57] >> I I love I love the kookier the better.
[158:00] >> Yeah.
[158:01] >> Like # space is fake is one of my
[158:03] favorite things to look up because
[158:04] there's a whole community of people out
[158:06] there that think space is fake. But I
[158:08] also think that a lot of these people
[158:09] what you're getting is there's been some
[158:13] there's been some people who develop
[158:16] fake theories in order to see if people
[158:18] bite
[158:19] >> and then and then they put them out
[158:20] there like on Reddit or somewhere on on
[158:22] 4chan. 4chan's a great place for stuff
[158:24] like that because you got a lot of
[158:25] schizophrenics that like to visit those
[158:26] places
[158:27] >> and they they'll put it out there and
[158:29] see if people run with it and then
[158:30] they'll do it to see if just for fun
[158:32] >> and he gives you a community, right?
[158:34] It's like, "Oh yeah, I have this group
[158:35] of flatearthers that I hang out with on
[158:37] Saturdays and we talk about how the
[158:39] earth's not round." You know what I
[158:40] mean? It's like I have a I made my own
[158:43] lunatic community.
[158:44] >> Bigfoot hunters. Same thing.
[158:45] >> There you go.
[158:46] >> Unfuckable.
[158:46] >> Unfuckable. Yeah.
[158:48] >> Unfuckable white guys looking for
[158:50] cryptids.
[158:52] >> Something to do.
[158:52] >> Are there any other cryptids that are
[158:54] even remotely interesting?
[158:57] >> To me, not really. I mean, I I always
[158:59] enjoy the fun of it, like when we chat
[159:01] about it, but as far as like the reality
[159:03] of it, I I don't think so. You know, I
[159:05] know it's a boring answer, but I think
[159:06] that
[159:07] >> But you would know. I mean, that's why
[159:09] I'm asking you. I mean, you're a guy who
[159:10] actually goes to these places and goes
[159:12] looking for stuff.
[159:13] >> I love when you hear about something
[159:15] like a borrowing snake and everybody's
[159:17] like, "That's not real. It doesn't
[159:19] exist." And then turns out somebody
[159:21] finds this weird snake and it's not
[159:23] really a crypted, but it's something
[159:24] that nobody's been looking for cuz why
[159:26] would you, right?
[159:28] in the center of the
[159:30] mudnake or whatever its
[159:36] communities, you know, like you hear
[159:38] from the village about the snake. I'm
[159:40] making the snake up, but about the snake
[159:42] that lives under the mud and only bites
[159:43] when people dig their crops or whatever
[159:45] it happens to be. And it c creates this
[159:48] generational legend that becomes a
[159:50] crypted. But the truth is, there is a
[159:52] snake that lives under the crops in the
[159:53] mud. It's just nobody ever goes looking
[159:55] for it because why would you?
[159:57] >> Well, there is a weird arrogance that we
[159:59] have in 2026 because we have uncovered
[160:02] so much in comparison to people that
[160:05] lived two or 30 hund years ago for sure.
[160:07] >> That we have this maybe arrogant
[160:09] assumption that we have an accurate
[160:12] audit of all the animals on the planet.
[160:14] >> And it's such a a human thing to do is
[160:17] to be like we've quantified it all. We
[160:20] have the answers. you know, it's like we
[160:22] put a finite on something and then you
[160:25] have all these guys like especially in
[160:26] the scientific community, which is
[160:28] that's a whole story for itself. But
[160:30] they're now like, "Okay, I need funding.
[160:32] So, I'm going to speciate a bunch of
[160:33] stuff. So, I'm going to go look at four
[160:35] things that are exactly the same except
[160:37] one lives on one side of the creek and
[160:38] one lives on the other, and now I'm
[160:40] going to make it its own species because
[160:41] that'll fund more work for me."
[160:43] >> So, now you have the speciation race.
[160:46] >> Yeah. And there's no gatekeeping on that
[160:48] where someone goes, "Hey,
[160:50] >> I mean, there are certain criteria that
[160:52] you have to meet, but they're pretty
[160:54] easy to meet." Do you know what I mean?
[160:55] You have to say it looks different. It
[160:56] has some kind of genetic anomaly. It has
[160:58] some kind of physical anomaly. There's a
[161:00] population of it. Okay. Now, now I've
[161:02] named my own species and that makes
[161:05] noise and I can publish a paper and now
[161:07] my research is funded. And it's just
[161:10] like, it's not, you know, is it a
[161:12] species? Do we did we need this one frog
[161:16] to be split into four different groups
[161:17] because they live on, you know, four
[161:19] different patches of the mountain? Not
[161:20] really. You know, and it sort of lessens
[161:22] the conservation for that frog in
[161:25] general because now all of a sudden it's
[161:26] like, well, there's four different kinds
[161:28] of them, so who cares if one of them
[161:29] gets extinct? You know what I mean? So
[161:30] it's it's sort of like it's a weird
[161:32] thing that's going on in the sciences
[161:34] where there's this race to do speciation
[161:36] and pull apart everything into more and
[161:38] more and more and then it sort of
[161:40] lessens the value of them in my opinion.
[161:43] >> That's interesting. So there's this
[161:46] reward thing that happens
[161:49] that encourages people to do these
[161:51] things.
[161:51] >> Dude, I'm writing a whole book on this
[161:53] right now.
[161:55] the scientific system in wildlife and
[161:56] conservation is so broken because it's
[161:59] very first of all
[162:02] if you're an animal guy you're probably
[162:04] not a great people person to begin with
[162:06] right myself included
[162:08] >> you're not a bad people person
[162:09] >> thanks but for the for the most part the
[162:12] people that get into the sciences
[162:13] probably are don't have the best yeah
[162:15] they're awkward they don't have the best
[162:16] human social skills right so then those
[162:19] people become professors and heads of
[162:21] parties and academics and all these
[162:23] things and again I'm generalizing there
[162:24] are great people that I work with too
[162:26] but this is just a picture of the system
[162:28] so now you have all these socially
[162:30] awkward somewhat introverted people
[162:31] studying animals now there's this tiny
[162:34] little resource pool of money and
[162:36] everybody that's socially awkward that's
[162:39] already somewhat arrogant because
[162:40] they've made it to the top of their
[162:41] field or close to the top of their field
[162:43] is competing for this tiny little pool
[162:45] of money. So now they're putting out
[162:47] anything that's headlinew worthy. And a
[162:49] headline worthy could be as simple as
[162:51] speciating a frog on a mountain or it
[162:53] could be discovering something. But
[162:54] basically you have to just publish
[162:56] something to show that you are
[162:58] accomplishing something to then pull
[163:00] from that tiny little pool of money. So
[163:02] now a system like say Yi and Jamie here
[163:05] should all be working towards saving
[163:07] this guy right here, this metal metal
[163:09] chimpanzeee.
[163:10] Well, we're not. We're all fighting
[163:12] because there's this tiny little pool of
[163:13] money that we all want and we're all
[163:15] saying that each other are wrong because
[163:17] we need to prove that we're right. so
[163:18] that we're funded because you two
[163:20] because all three of us can't be funded
[163:22] to save that species.
[163:23] >> Does that make sense? So now we're all
[163:25] fighting each other to save the thing
[163:26] that we all care about because the
[163:27] resource pool is so small.
[163:29] >> What's the solution to that?
[163:31] >> Well, it needs to become more
[163:32] mainstream. Um, and I I think there's a
[163:35] lot of [ __ ] science, you know, to be
[163:36] honest with you. Like there's a lot of
[163:38] this speciation and publishing and all
[163:40] this stuff that's just sort of making
[163:42] noise that isn't really helping. And I
[163:45] think the solution is well one once it
[163:47] becomes more mainstream.
[163:49] Here's here's the short answer.
[163:51] Conservation is incredibly easy to
[163:53] measure. We try and make it very
[163:54] difficult and complicated. Are there
[163:56] animals now? After your work, are there
[163:59] more? Have you fixed the problem? That's
[164:02] all conservation is, right? Are there
[164:04] are there more or less than when you
[164:05] started? If when you started there are
[164:07] less and now there are more, and this is
[164:08] very black and white and every system's
[164:10] different, but if you had a thousand
[164:13] frogs and then you worked on the
[164:14] project, now you have 2,000 frogs,
[164:16] you're doing conservation, right? As
[164:18] long as the ecosystem supports, as long
[164:19] as the prey is there, blah blah blah
[164:21] blah blah. That's all conservation is.
[164:23] We try and make it so complicated and so
[164:26] in-depth and require all these papers
[164:28] and this publishing and this information
[164:31] that is sort of an information overload
[164:33] that the common person doesn't care
[164:35] about it. I mean when's the last time
[164:36] you read a paper on frogs? Probably
[164:39] never, right?
[164:40] >> Me neither cuz they're boring. Cuz I
[164:42] don't want care about it. But I would
[164:44] care if you just came out and said,
[164:45] "Look, these frogs need a home. We're
[164:47] going to fight kitrid fungus, which is
[164:49] this big widespread fungus that's
[164:50] killing all amphibians by building frog
[164:52] hotels. And if we build, which are these
[164:54] little brick hotel things that frogs go
[164:56] into incubate to kill a fungus and if we
[164:58] build enough frog hotels, then there's
[165:00] going to be more frogs. That's good
[165:01] conservation. So instead of fighting
[165:03] over that, make that popular and
[165:05] mainstream. Don't make it so complicated
[165:07] so that nobody understands it. I'm not
[165:08] saying don't publish papers and things.
[165:10] Those still very much so have their
[165:11] place and they're important. but focus
[165:13] on the messaging to the common person so
[165:15] the common person now cares. Then there
[165:18] becomes more funding and resources. Then
[165:20] we don't all have to fight over this
[165:22] tiny little pool of resources to publish
[165:23] things that aren't actually
[165:24] accomplishing things.
[165:26] >> Well, this is actually the value of
[165:27] getting into a crocodile cage.
[165:29] >> That's right.
[165:30] >> Because you get people actually
[165:31] interested in in animals. And
[165:34] >> that's why I do YouTube. That's why I do
[165:35] all these things is that I hope that it
[165:37] helps people care. I don't need to get
[165:39] funded by it. Like it's great when my
[165:40] YouTube does well and I make money, but
[165:42] like I just want people to care about
[165:44] these things cuz if you care about them,
[165:46] then that resource pool widens.
[165:48] >> Yeah.
[165:48] >> Yeah.
[165:48] >> Well, it's you got to make things
[165:50] interesting to people, right? And this
[165:53] is where like David Atenboroough was so
[165:55] amazing. Absolutely. Right. Cuz he
[165:56] developed these documentaries and but so
[165:59] and the voice that he had is explaining
[166:02] these things. He was the first guy to
[166:04] document chimpanzees eating monkeys.
[166:06] >> Yeah. Yeah.
[166:07] >> Yeah. I remember that.
[166:08] >> Incredible. That was incredible. All his
[166:10] stuff, he's the the goat, literally.
[166:12] >> But you kind of That's another thing
[166:14] about being a wildlife biologist. You
[166:17] kind of have to get your hands dirty.
[166:18] Like, you got to get in there.
[166:20] >> And the other part of the system that's
[166:22] so broken is a lot of these worldleading
[166:24] experts have never touched, seen
[166:27] anything with a living one of these
[166:29] animals. Like I worked with a person,
[166:31] and I don't want to say her name because
[166:32] she's a lovely person who's a
[166:34] worldleading expert on a certain type of
[166:37] shark. And we're like, great. You're the
[166:38] world's leading authority. You're
[166:40] perfect to come with us on this trip to
[166:42] study these sharks. We fly to the
[166:44] opposite side of the planet. I don't
[166:45] want to give too many details. It's not
[166:46] fair to her. She's a very nice person.
[166:47] We fly to the opposite side of the
[166:49] planet. She's published 50 papers on
[166:51] this species of shark. And we get there
[166:54] and I'm like, "All right, day one. Let's
[166:55] gear up. Let's hop in the water and look
[166:56] for this thing." She's like, "I don't
[166:57] know how to swim." Like, "What do you
[166:59] mean?" She's like, "I've never been in
[167:01] the ocean before." Like, "You're the
[167:02] world's leading authority on this type
[167:04] of shark." And she's like, "Yeah, yeah,
[167:05] I don't I don't dive. I don't snorkel. I
[167:07] don't know how to swim. I'm like, "Well,
[167:09] how are you the world's leading
[167:10] authority on the shark?" She's like,
[167:11] "Well, I've never seen one alive. I've
[167:13] dissected them. I've published all these
[167:14] papers. I can tell you about the tooth
[167:16] count, but I've actually never seen one
[167:17] alive." I'm like, "You're the world's
[167:19] leading authority, and you've never seen
[167:21] one of these animals alive to study it."
[167:24] The guy who fishes and eats it in the
[167:25] village next door is a more of an
[167:27] authority than this person. Do you know
[167:28] what I mean? But that's the scientific
[167:30] process, the world's leading authority
[167:32] because they've published the most
[167:33] papers on something that sits in a
[167:35] pickle jar.
[167:36] >> Do you think that that is an absolute
[167:38] requirement though? Like do you have to
[167:40] have some sort of physical contact with
[167:44] the world that they live in?
[167:45] >> I think you have to have observational
[167:47] knowledge. You don't have to have
[167:48] physical contact. Like you shouldn't
[167:50] have physical contact with wild
[167:51] chimpanzees. They'll rip your arms off,
[167:52] >> right? But I mean the world they live
[167:54] in. I mean being on the ground.
[167:55] >> I think it should be a requirement. I
[167:57] think if you're going to be considered
[167:58] an authority on that thing, you have to
[168:00] have observational data as well as
[168:03] scientific data. You can't just live in
[168:05] a world where you're like, I've studied
[168:06] them in pickled jars and I can tell you
[168:08] everything about them.
[168:09] >> Well, to me, that was like one of the
[168:10] most fascinating aspects of chimp
[168:12] nation,
[168:13] >> you know, that these scientists had been
[168:15] embedded with these particular
[168:16] chimpanzees for more than 20 years.
[168:19] >> That's science. Yeah,
[168:20] >> that is science. That means you are
[168:22] sitting there and that's why the best
[168:24] scientists are the guys that hunt and
[168:26] fish and spend their life surrounded by
[168:28] these animals that will never once be
[168:30] credited as a scientist cuz all they do
[168:32] is study the behavior of the animal.
[168:34] >> And I'm with you like that is that's the
[168:36] real deal. 20 years watching a troop of
[168:38] chimps, learning their behavior,
[168:41] understanding their social dynamic. I'm
[168:43] not saying you shouldn't also cut one
[168:44] open and measure its canines. You should
[168:47] when you get a dead one. But that
[168:49] doesn't make you an authority on it,
[168:51] >> right?
[168:51] >> In my opinion.
[168:52] >> Well, that was the thing about that
[168:54] particular documentary and those
[168:56] particular scientists was that it was so
[168:57] unusual that they had this long history
[169:00] where these chimpanzees had lived and
[169:01] died and raised new chimps around these
[169:04] people and as long as they followed this
[169:06] protocol, stay within, you know, 20
[169:09] yards at least 20 yards away from them.
[169:10] Never have food around them. Don't look
[169:12] them in the eyes,
[169:13] >> you're good.
[169:14] >> Yep.
[169:14] >> And you got insane footage because of
[169:17] that.
[169:17] >> Yeah. because there's a mutual respect.
[169:20] Like they've learned to appreciate each
[169:22] other. And you can't do that with every
[169:23] animal. Like it doesn't matter how many
[169:24] years you spend sitting watching a
[169:26] crocodile, it'll still eat you at the
[169:27] first chance it gets.
[169:29] >> But you've earned a mutual respect with
[169:32] a highly intelligent creature. That to
[169:34] me as a field biologist is science.
[169:37] That's incredible.
[169:38] >> If not a respect, at the very least,
[169:40] you've become a part of their world to
[169:42] the point where they don't think of you
[169:44] as being an anomaly.
[169:46] >> That's right. So they act normal.
[169:48] >> Yep.
[169:48] >> Where they're they're not they're not
[169:49] weirded out. Like if you just show up
[169:51] out of nowhere and you're wearing a
[169:52] spacuit, the monkeyy's going to go,
[169:54] "Hey,
[169:55] >> exactly.
[169:55] >> [ __ ] is this new thing?" But if there's
[169:58] always people with spaceuits around,
[169:59] they never bother them. They go, "Oh,
[170:01] it's just the spacuit guy. Normal. I'm
[170:04] just going to go eat my bananas like
[170:05] normal."
[170:05] >> It's the same as seeing, you know, an
[170:07] Impala and a wilderbeast hang out
[170:08] together at a watering hole. They're
[170:10] used to each other. They know they're
[170:11] not threats to each other, but you or I
[170:13] walk up and both of their ears perk up
[170:15] and they sprint in different directions.
[170:21] >> It's amazing.
[170:22] >> But I mean, has there ever been anything
[170:23] other than Chimp Nation where they did
[170:25] that that effectively?
[170:26] >> I mean, the Grizzly Man sure tried.
[170:29] >> Didn't work out so well.
[170:30] >> Didn't end well.
[170:32] >> Or did it? Yeah,
[170:33] >> it probably ended the way he wanted it
[170:35] to, honestly. I think
[170:36] >> there's no way he could have wanted to
[170:38] go out any other way. I think I think
[170:40] that was Suicide by Bear.
[170:42] >> Yeah. You think?
[170:43] >> I also think it was Warner Herszog's
[170:44] attempt at comedy.
[170:46] >> You think?
[170:47] >> Yeah. There's something about the way he
[170:48] edited it where I'm like, "This guy's
[170:50] [ __ ] with us."
[170:52] >> Cuz there's one time where he talking
[170:54] about the sheriff and they ask the
[170:55] sheriff like, "What do you thought of
[170:56] him?" And the sheriff goes, "Well, I
[170:58] thought he was retarded." And they smash
[171:00] cut to something else. I'm like, "You're
[171:02] trying to make me laugh, weren't you?"
[171:04] >> It's pretty funny, though. I' I've
[171:05] wanted to try to get him on the podcast
[171:07] and that's going to be one of He
[171:08] probably would never answer honestly
[171:10] because it would probably be
[171:11] disrespectful to Timothy Treadwell and
[171:14] >> you got to get memory though.
[171:15] >> I would love to get him on just I think
[171:17] he's amazing.
[171:17] >> Yeah.
[171:18] >> And also his documentary Happy People
[171:20] Life in the Tiger is one of my favorite
[171:22] documentaries of all time.
[171:23] >> Oh, really? I don't know it. It's good.
[171:24] >> It's all about these people that live in
[171:25] Siberia
[171:26] >> and uh they have like no mental illness
[171:29] and all they do is they live a
[171:31] subsistence lifestyle. They're just
[171:33] hunting and fishing and uh trapping and
[171:36] they ride around on snowmobiles and they
[171:37] make these huts and they live up there
[171:39] with their dogs and they have this
[171:41] extended periods of time where they're
[171:43] alone. Yeah. And all they're doing is
[171:45] like taking their snowmobiles to
[171:46] different traps and and gathering wood
[171:49] for fire and fish to eat. It's and
[171:52] they're all happy and they're drinking
[171:54] and laughing and they're they're like
[171:56] it's weird because he he documents it
[171:59] and it's called happy people. That's
[172:02] what the documentary is called.
[172:04] >> And it's like with his like the way he
[172:07] describes his people living in Siberia.
[172:12] >> Siberia.
[172:13] >> [ __ ] amazing. Oh, that's cool.
[172:14] >> It's really amazing. It's amazing
[172:16] documentary. I think he's incredible.
[172:17] >> I I have said forever
[172:20] you don't all look mental illness a real
[172:23] thing. I'm not going to pretend it's
[172:24] not, but if you spend a lot of time
[172:26] outside and in nature and especially by
[172:28] yourself,
[172:29] >> it the noise goes away. I don't care who
[172:32] you are. I don't care what your history
[172:34] is, drug history, anything.
[172:36] >> When you you're much more present when
[172:38] you're alone in nature.
[172:40] >> Yeah.
[172:40] >> And mental illness from I have no
[172:42] experience in this. This is just
[172:43] opinion. But mental illness comes from
[172:45] when you're wrapped up in your own
[172:47] being, right? When you're thinking about
[172:49] all the problems and this that and the
[172:50] other thing. But when you're alone in
[172:52] nature, you have to think about your
[172:54] surroundings and what you're doing. and
[172:55] you don't have time to sit and manifest
[172:58] on these things that create depression
[173:00] and anxiety and all of those types of
[173:02] things.
[173:02] >> There's also no comparison. You're not
[173:05] comparing yourself to anyone else cuz
[173:06] you're living in a community that are a
[173:08] subsistence lifestyle people. All these
[173:10] people are doing the same thing you're
[173:12] doing. What are you going to do? You
[173:13] going to have the biggest fish? Like
[173:14] nobody gives a [ __ ] It's all hunting,
[173:16] fishing, living off the land. And that's
[173:18] they all do it and they're all like
[173:20] sharing and drinking together and having
[173:22] fun. It's really wild when you watch it.
[173:25] You go, "Well, it got boiled down to
[173:27] like the most simplistic communitydriven
[173:30] ways that people exist like this." Like,
[173:33] seems to be the best way for people to
[173:35] live.
[173:35] >> But like you said earlier, you have to
[173:37] have both sides, right, of the coin.
[173:39] It's like the red and blue in Texas
[173:40] because you have to have innovators and
[173:42] overthinkers and workers or it wouldn't
[173:44] be a society
[173:45] >> or they and by the way, they wouldn't
[173:46] exist because uh they use snowmobiles
[173:48] and not one of those [ __ ] is
[173:50] going to invent a snowmobile.
[173:51] >> Exactly. So, you got to have the red and
[173:53] the blue. You got to have both sides.
[173:55] Yeah.
[173:55] >> Yeah. Absolutely.
[173:56] >> That's awesome.
[173:57] >> Well, hey, brother. It's always good to
[173:58] talk to you. This is really fun.
[174:00] >> Really fun.
[174:00] >> What is this? You and the crocodile.
[174:02] >> Oh my god. Dude, you didn't tell me that
[174:04] you put meat all around the outside of
[174:06] it.
[174:06] >> Told you I was an idiot. Look at this.
[174:09] We made that cage, by the way. And I am
[174:11] no engineer.
[174:12] >> Oh my god. Cave looks so flimsy.
[174:16] >> So,
[174:16] >> that thing looks so flimsy. And you're
[174:19] just hanging by a thread.
[174:21] >> Uh, literally like this cable that we
[174:23] sourced from a village and hoped it
[174:25] would hold up. I mean, we tested it as
[174:26] far as put some rocks in it and tested
[174:28] it and empty cage, but
[174:30] >> this is a terrible idea.
[174:31] >> It was dumb. It was dumb.
[174:32] >> Look at these things doing death rolls.
[174:34] >> But people are going to watch this, Joe,
[174:35] and they're going to learn about
[174:36] crocodiles.
[174:37] >> Great thing you filmed it,
[174:38] >> right?
[174:39] >> God, man, that's insane.
[174:41] >> It was fun.
[174:42] >> That that cage looks way too flimsy.
[174:44] Don't do that again.
[174:45] >> I'm not doing it again. I promise. Yeah.
[174:46] Um, tell people how they can see that,
[174:48] where where they can find all your
[174:50] stuff.
[174:50] >> Dude, it's Shark Week. We got an awesome
[174:52] show coming out this week. Um, Alien
[174:54] Sharks, Untamed America, looking at some
[174:56] incredible sharks. Celebrating America's
[174:58] birthday. Our craziest, weirdest sharks.
[175:00] >> How long is Shark Week has been going on
[175:03] since the 80s.
[175:04] >> 39 years old. Same age as me. Yeah.
[175:08] It's been around my whole life.
[175:10] >> That is so crazy.
[175:11] >> Yeah. It's an institution.
[175:12] >> Wow.
[175:13] >> Plus, we got the YouTube channel. Well,
[175:15] that's where I'm doing most of my stuff
[175:16] now. I hope people check that. I know
[175:17] you watch some videos. I've heard you
[175:19] comment. I appreciate that.
[175:20] >> Well, I appreciate you. I appreciate you
[175:22] doing that stuff, man.
[175:23] >> Thanks for having me, dude. Always a
[175:24] blast. Always great to see you. All
[175:25] right. Bye, everybody.
[175:27] >> See you.
