Ken Griffin Stegosaurus Buy Triggers Shift to Private Fossil Deals

肯·格里芬购入剑龙化石推动交易转向私人市场 私人资本加速了恐龙化石发掘并推高市场标准，同时将传统自然历史博物馆挤出市场。 本期节目探讨了在肯·格里芬以4500万美元收购剑龙等具有里程碑意义的数百万美元交易推动下，恐龙化石如何迅速崛起为精英资产类别。David Aaron画廊的Salomon Aaron解释了在美国私有土地上进行私人野外发掘的运作机制、评估骨骼完整度所需的严格查验与修复规程，以及该市场摆脱投机倒买的动态变化。对话还涉及了私人买家与公共科研机构之间的紧张关系，展示了混合慈善合作模式与高昂的私人需求如何正在重塑现代古生物学。 恐龙化石市场迎来大幅繁荣，已从学术小众领域演变为与艺术精品和古董并列的高价值资产类别。 (4:14) Citadel创始人肯·格里芬（Ken Griffin）在2024年以近4500万美元拍下一具名为“Apex”的剑龙骨架，创下化石拍卖的世界纪录。 (4:34) 尽管化石市场开始呈现艺术精品市场的特征，但它仍相对不成熟，缺乏标准化规则、定价历史和正式监管。 (6:50) 为确保产权明晰且来源合法，画廊主要聚焦于在美国私有土地上发掘的化石，依据美国法律，这些化石归土地所有者所有。 (10:04) 恐龙骨骼几乎从未被发现是100%完整的，因此需要严格的骨骼测绘，并对真实骨骼与树脂或3D打印修复材料的比例保持透明。 (16:03)

The private market for dinosaur fossils has transformed from a niche scientific domain into a high-value alternative asset class, driven by multi-million-dollar auction records and wealthy private collectors. However, gallery director Salomon Aaron notes that the sector remains largely unregulated and structurally immature compared to the traditional fine art market. Record Valuations and Fine-Art Market Protocols Dinosaur fossil pricing underwent a structural paradigm shift following the benchmark sale of the Tyrannosaurus rex skeleton "Stan," which Christie's sold in 2020 or 2021 to the Natural History Museum Abu Dhabi for $31.8 million. This eclipsed the previous auction record set in 1997 by the T. rex "Sue," which sold for $8.36 million to a museum consortium. The market reached a new peak in 2024 when Citadel founder Ken Griffin purchased a Stegosaurus named "Apex" for $44.6 million at auction. Other notable sales include the Triceratops "Big John" for approximately $8 million and the raptor "Hector" for £12 million to £13 million. Aaron explains that commercial galleries accelerated this boom by adopting formal art-market practices: mounting fossils on minimalist stands, drafting detailed condition reports, and exhibiting specimens at premier international art fairs. These efforts exposed fossils to younger, affluent collectors from tech and science backgrounds, alongside sovereign wealth funds, creating intense competition that often requires buyers to pre-purchase specimens before excavation and laboratory preparation are finished. Legal Property Rights and Excavation in the West (10:04) Commercial fossil excavation is heavily concentrated in North American states such as Wyoming, Montana, and South Dakota. Beyond possessing prehistoric strata exposed by seasonal erosion, the region is governed by clear private property laws: under U.S. law, fossils discovered on private land belong exclusively to the landowner, who is legally entitled to sell them. In contrast, many international jurisdictions enforce strict export bans or operate in legal grey areas. To ensure clean legal title and provenance, reputable galleries have implemented due-diligence protocols adapted from the antiquities trade. These measures require recorded land deeds, commercial profit-sharing agreements with landowners, exact GPS excavation coordinates, and in-situ video footage to confirm that found skeletons are genuine single individuals rather than altered or augmented finds. Restoration Transparency and the Absence of Regulation A central operational reality in commercial paleontology is that complete dinosaur skeletons are virtually never found in nature. Discovered bones are stabilized and assembled, while missing elements are reconstructed using synthetic resin or 3D-printed components. Aaron stresses that market transparency regarding the exact ratio of authentic bone to restoration material is critical to determining valuation, as an unscrupulous seller can manipulate basic diagrams to misrepresent a specimen that is only 5% intact as complete. Unlike the fine art ecosystem, the fossil trade currently lacks independent advisory firms, standardized grading criteria, or institutional vetting bodies. Market value also hinges disproportionately on species identity and critical anatomical features rather than gross bone mass. Carnivores such as T. rex, Allosaurus, and Gorgosaurus command immediate bidding wars over herbivores, and skulls missing iconic elements like intact teeth or horns suffer sharp discounts. Commercial Speculation Versus Scientific Access Aaron explicitly advises against purchasing dinosaur fossils as short-term financial investments, citing high market volatility, potential shifts in government regulation, and extensive operational risks in field operations—such as rogue excavators withholding key bones for extortion. He also discourages collectors from directly financing speculative digs, given the high probability of barren seasons. The commercial trade remains a contentious subject within paleontology. Critics argue that skyrocketing private prices price academic institutions out of acquiring vital specimens, locking them away in private residences. Conversely, proponents argue that commercial capital funds the labor-intensive extraction and preparation of fossils that public universities cannot afford. This tension has fostered hybrid philanthropic models, where private buyers acquire specimens with right-of-first-refusal arrangements for museums or finance long-term institutional loans, as seen with Ken Griffin placing the "Apex" Stegosaurus at the American Museum of Natural History. The commercial fossil trade has unlocked private capital to discover and prepare specimens that public budgets cannot support, yet it lacks the standardized vetting and regulation of mature art markets. The sector's future will depend on whether emerging philanthropic frameworks can successfully bridge the gap between private ownership and public scientific research.

根据彭博节目的讨论，恐龙化石正经历从学术标本向超级富豪青睐的高端另类资产转变，公开拍卖价格屡次刷新数千万美元的历史纪录。然而业内专家Salomon Aaron指出，该市场仍处于规范形成的初级阶段，在缺乏统一外部监管的环境下，其定价波动、修复透明度以及私人收藏与公共科学研究之间的伦理冲突仍面临诸多挑战。 拍卖天价驱动与化石资产化转型 恐龙化石市场在过去二十余年间实现了爆发式增长。1997年霸王龙“Sue”以836万美元拍卖成交，长期构成公开市场的价格天花板；但2020至2021年间，另一具标志性霸王龙“Stan”在佳士得以3180万美元被阿布扎比自然历史博物馆竞得，打破了原有的估值结构。2024年，Citadel创始人Ken Griffin以4460万美元（近4500万美元）拍下名为“Apex”的剑龙骨骼，创下全球化石拍卖历史最高纪录。此外，三角龙“Big John”以约800万美元成交，恐爪龙“Hector”拍卖价亦达到1200万至1500万美元区间。 伦敦David Aaron画廊总监Salomon Aaron指出，化石市场开始呈现传统艺术品市场的某些特征。画廊通过引入专业的尽职调查、品相报告、极简定制展架等艺术品运营模式，并在主流艺术博览会上展出，吸引了大量年轻、具备科技背景的新兴富豪与主权财富基金的关注。但与拥有数百年成交参考数据的传统艺术品相比，化石交易的历史基准极度匮乏，导致标本估值波动剧烈。 法律确权、品相审计与修复现实 (10:04) 化石交易的合法性高度依赖出土地的法律框架。Salomon Aaron表示，其画廊仅交易美国出土的恐龙化石，因为美国法律明确规定私有土地上发现的化石归土地所有者所有，只要签署合法协议即可自由买卖，避免了国际交易中复杂的出口许可与法律灰色地带。为确权并建立可信来源，规范流程必须包含发掘现场的GPS精确定位、土地契约、分成销售合同、原位挖掘录像，并由独立古生物学家与修复师进行实地审计。 在真实性与完整度评估上，市场面临严重的信息不对称。由于自然界中几乎不存在100%完整的恐龙骨骼，出土标本必须经过实验室清理，并用树脂或3D打印骨骼填补缺失部分。业内普遍使用“骨骼图”（bone map），但Aaron警示，常规图纸极具误导性——某块骨头若仅存5%亦可能在图上被标记为存在，甚至有不法卖家将断骨分开计算以虚增完整度。与拥有严格咨询与审核机制的成熟艺术市场相比，恐龙化石领域目前仍缺乏外部独立监管，买家高度依赖专业人员对真实骨骼与合成材料比例的透明披露。 私人资本介入与公共科研伦理 私人财富大规模涌入化石领域引发了古生物学界的长期伦理争论。学术界与批评者担忧，天价私人竞拍会将资金有限的公共教育和研究机构彻底挤出市场，导致关键科学标本被锁入私人豪宅而丧失科研价值。支持私人交易的观点则认为，由于公共财政资助匮乏，若无商业利益和私人资本驱动，绝大多数深埋地下的化石根本无法承担高昂的野外勘探、发掘与实验室修复成本，最终只会在风化中损毁。 为此，市场上正逐步探索兼顾科研与商业的新型合作模式。一些专业画廊在发掘出未知新物种或关键标本时，会给予自然历史博物馆优先权，或在发掘早期通过“预购”机制为地主与实验室清理提供资金，随后撮合私人慈善家出资购买并捐赠或长期出借给博物馆。例如，Ken Griffin在购入4460万美元的剑龙“Apex”后将其公开展出于纽约美国自然历史博物馆；亦有私人藏家出资购得未知新物种后，将其长期借展至英国科尔切斯特博物馆（Colchester Museum）供科学研究。 投机风险防范与解剖特征偏好 (40:00) 针对化石投资的升温趋势，Salomon Aaron明确告诫买家不要出于纯粹投机目的入场。他指出，化石市场受政策法规变动、存放空间限制等不可测变量影响极大，在拍卖后短期内倒手转售的行为脱离了真正的收藏本质。此外，他强烈反对个人藏家以风险投资形式直接赞助早期野外挖掘，因为偏远挖掘现场缺乏监管，极易遭遇承包商私藏骨骼或事后勒索加价的道德风险。 在品类需求方面，市场存在显著的物种与解剖部位偏好。肉食性恐龙（如霸王龙、蛇发女怪龙、异特龙）因其凶猛的视觉威慑力而备受追捧，品相完好的霸王龙头骨常出现买家未见实物便直接汇款抢购的现象；植食性恐龙中仅有三角龙等少数明星物种能维持同等热度。Aaron强调，标本价值不能单纯看骨骼完整百分比，关键解剖部位（如原装牙齿或完整的角）对估值具有决定性影响，例如小型脆弱的侏罗纪纳米龙达到50%完整度已属罕见，而相同比例的三角龙则较为普通。 恐龙化石凭借跨越文化与代际的广泛吸引力确立了高端另类资产地位，但该市场目前仍高度依赖有限的美国私有土地供给，并受制于缺乏行业统一度量标准与真伪修复辨识门槛。未来如何在保护公共科研价值与维持商业勘探激励之间建立规范化平衡，仍是这一新兴资产类别面临的核心问题。

## Background 本期节目由彭博（Bloomberg）旗下的金融播客《Odd Lots》于 2026 年 5 月 2 日发布在 RSS 和网络平台。节目简介指出，在城堡投资创始人肯·格里芬以近 4500 万美元拍下一具剑龙骨骼并创下化石拍卖历史纪录的背景下，主持人专访了伦敦 David Aaron 画廊总监兼恐龙化石经纪人 Salomon Aaron，共同探讨恐龙化石私人市场的定价机制、发掘寻源、法律合规以及私人收藏与博物馆科研之间的复杂生态。 ## TL;DR 节目围绕近年来逆势暴涨的恐龙化石另类资产市场展开深度剖析。嘉宾 Salomon Aaron 详细拆解了商业恐龙化石的发掘经济学，强调其画廊只交易基于美国清晰私人土地产权的标本，并介绍了将古典古董级尽职调查、GPS坐标与高精度骨骼分布图（Bone Map）引入化石防伪的合规标准。访谈进一步探讨了从霸王龙“斯坦”到剑龙“顶点”所引爆的科技新贵买家潮与早期预购模式，同时辩证评估了私人资本如何既能填补古生物科研发掘的巨额资金缺口，又伴随着投机、敲诈及学术伦理争议。最后，主持人复盘了恐龙文化超越传统艺术周期的永恒魅力，并以幽默的风趣互动澄清了古生物分类学常识。 ## Atmosphere & style 整期节目在专业硬核的金融商业洞察与轻松幽默的极客闲聊之间自如切换。主持人 Tracy Alloway 与 Joe Weisenthal 默契十足，开场与结尾围绕“鸟到底算不算恐龙”以及误将镀金猛犸象认作恐龙的自嘲插科打诨，为节目增添了浓厚的趣味性；而嘉宾 Salomon Aaron 的叙述则严谨沉稳、充满行业一线的真实经历。听众既能感受到史前巨兽穿透千百万年带来的壮丽震撼，也能深切体会到荒野化石交易中充满博弈与法律核验的真实商业张力。 ## Bulletin - `05:00` 城堡投资（Citadel）创始人肯·格里芬以近 4500 万美元拍下剑龙化石“顶点”，刷新古生物化石拍卖历史纪录，标志着恐龙化石已成为超高净值人群的新兴另类资产。 - `10:00` 商业恐龙化石流通高度依赖美国私人土地法系，因土地所有权明确且允许合法买卖，从而规避了国际文物公约和公有土地出口合规的严苛法律风险。 - `12:15` 顶级画廊将古典艺术品的来源尽职调查机制引入化石交易，要求严格提供土地契约、出土 GPS 经纬度、出土现场原位录像以及第三方骨骼质量分析图。 - `31:40` 顶级稀缺化石交易已转向“出土早期预购”模式，买家需提前承担清修与地主分成成本，以规避化石进入拍卖行后与主权财富基金及石油资本的白热化竞价。 ## Key takeaways - `07:30` 恐龙化石交易市场正在步入向品质分化（Flight to quality）阶段，正逐步确立品相、真伪与来源流转的标准化规则。 - `07:30` 全球已发现的恐龙化石仅为冰山一角，此前野外作业面临极高的季节限制与勘探亏损风险，近年来化石价格暴涨使高成本商业挖掘在财务上具备可行性。 - `21:45` 北美怀俄明与北达科他等州成为全球发掘重镇，核心在于大面积未开发的私人产权土地、适宜的作业窗口期以及自然地质侵蚀使古老地层充分暴露。 - `18:00` 传统化石骨骼分布图（Bone Map）常存在虚报完整度的乱象，高端画廊开始联合古生物学家与艺术修复师，精确标示每一块骨骼的真实质量百分比及树脂补件位置。 - `22:45` 2020 年霸王龙“斯坦”以近 3180 万美元成交打破了二十年的价格天花板，随后三角龙“大约翰”与剑龙“顶点”接连打破纪录，彻底重构了行业底层的利益链条。 - `34:50` 买家画像呈现出年轻化与科技行业集中的特征，伴随电影《侏罗纪公园》成长的新贵群体将儿时敬畏感与资产配置、科学赞助相结合。 - `35:40` 私人资本与学术科研正在形成新型共生关系，商业资金驱动了未知新物种的出土，而藏家往往倾向于通过长期借展或捐赠向公立自然历史博物馆开放研究权限。 - `40:00` 肉食性恐龙因强烈的视觉威慑力享有极高市场溢价，但化石价值更取决于关键核心特征的原始保留度（如原始真牙、角骨），而非单纯盲目追求拼凑的骨骼完整比例。 - `45:00` 严禁私人买家在野外发掘早期进行“风投式”下注，荒野开采存在严重的道德风险与监管盲区，买家极易遭遇工人私藏骨头或卖家坐地起价的敲诈风险。 - `50:00` 相较于现代艺术品面临 5 至 10 年的审美更迭周期，恐龙化石凭借对人类童年与自然界永恒的文化号召力，具备更长久稳定的关注度与资产保值韧性。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### `00:00` 恐龙、鸟类与“怀疑论”的闲聊开场 节目由 Bloomberg Audio Studios 制作，主持人 Tracy Alloway 与 Joe Weisenthal 像往常一样在轻松的插科打诨中拉开序幕。Tracy 问 Joe 小时候或者现在的孩子们是否经历过“恐龙迷恋期”。Joe 坦言自己从小就很喜欢恐龙，如今他的孩子们也是恐龙迷，甚至经常纠正他的常识性认知——比如 Joe 会故意逗女儿，说自己最喜欢的恐龙是翼手龙（Pterodactyl），结果女儿当即翻白眼反驳：“爸爸，翼手龙在分类学上根本不属于恐龙，它只是某种史前爬行动物。”Tracy 听后也十分意外，表示自己以前同样不清楚这一点。 接着，Joe 开玩笑自嘲自己听起来要像个“怪人”或“地平说支持者”了：他完全相信恐龙真实存在，地质层也有扎实的化石记录，但他一直无法直观理解进化论的一环——那些巨大、长相神似巨龙或巨蜥的史前巨兽在大绝灭（比如小行星撞击）后全部消失，随后生命演化重启，诞生出的现代动物在长相上似乎完全没有霸王龙（T-Rex）或雷龙（Brontosaurus）的影子。Tracy 立即反驳称鸡等现代鸟类就带有浓重的爬行动物气质，外貌宛如“小恐龙”。两人围绕“鸟到底像不像霸王龙”展开了一番逗趣的争论，最后 Tracy 只好打趣让 Joe 平时“多看几只鸟”，并把话题拉回正题：今天聚焦的不是生物学辩论，而是一个在当前经济环境下逆势大涨、屡创天价记录的冷门另类资产市场——恐龙化石交易市场。 ### `05:00` 顶级富豪的新宠与恐龙化石的金融化 随后，两位主持人梳理了恐龙化石作为顶级收藏品走向大众与金融界视野的背景： - **标志性交易**：城堡投资（Citadel）创始人肯·格里芬（Ken Griffin）在拍卖行以近 4500 万美元的创纪录天价拍下一具几乎完整的剑龙（Stegosaurus）骨骼化石，成为有史以来成交价最高的古生物化石，引发金融界和公众的广泛关注。 - **顶级财富阶层的资产转移**：对超级富豪而言，当艺术品、稀有古籍、古董已经收藏齐全后，恐龙骨骼化石成为了彰显品味与财富的新象征。例如迈阿密南海滩（South Beach）某些极度奢华的酒店大堂里，甚至公开展览着镀金的大型史前生物骨架装置。 - **市场架构与伦理争议**：这不仅仅是有钱人挥霍金钱的游乐场，其底层涉及非常复杂的市场结构、寻源机制（Sourcing）与法律监管。虽然存在职业恐龙猎人（Commercial fossil hunters），但化石发掘能否合法买卖受制于严苛的土地所有权与出口法规；同时，这类具备重大科研价值的标的究竟该留在公立博物馆供全人类研究，还是被私人买下放置在豪宅或酒店大堂，也一直伴随着强烈的道德伦理争议。 在风趣地虚构了一个“彭博终端机显示恐龙化石期货出现现货升水（Backwardation）”的金融梗之后，Tracy 隆重请出了本期嘉宾 Salomon Aaron。Salomon 是伦敦顶级古董画廊 David Aaron 的总监，该画廊专注于古代文物、伊斯兰艺术以及高端恐龙化石的交易，他本人也是业界首屈一指的化石经纪人。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 恐龙化石市场驱动因素与生态循环 accDescr: 展示价格上涨、商业发掘以及市场规范化之间的循环因果关系 subgraph MarketDynamics["化石市场繁荣逻辑"] A["拍卖纪录频现<br/>（如 Ken Griffin $45M 购剑龙）"] --> B["超高净值人群兴趣与资本涌入"] B --> C["商业恐龙猎人发掘可行性提升<br/>（高风险寻源获得经济支撑）"] C --> D["更多化石标的进入公开/私洽市场"] end subgraph MarketEvolution["市场演进与挑战"] D --> E["规则逐步建立<br/>（品相、真伪、溯源标准成型）"] E --> F["迈向品质分化<br/>（Flight to Quality）"] end D -.-> B ``` ### `07:30` 恐龙化石市场的雏形与“冰山一角”的发掘现状 当被问及恐龙化石市场与传统艺术品及古董市场的异同点时，Salomon Aaron 给出了解释： - **市场成熟度差距巨大**：尽管恐龙化石市场在过去十年经历了爆炸式增长，且正逐渐呈现出传统艺术品市场的某些特征，但目前两者之间仍有显著差距。它极度缺乏深入的学术研究沉淀、成熟的市场参照物以及可供横向对比的定价基准（Pricing comps）。 - **行业交易准则仍在摸索确立中**：关于如何界定一具恐龙化石的品相（Condition）、真伪（Authenticity）、归属（Attribution）和来源流转记录（Provenance）的标准，目前整个行业仍在摸索和制定之中。 - **向品质分化（Flight to quality）**：Salomon 指出，过去十年的暴涨期过后，市场正在步入更成熟的新阶段。未来将会出现明显的品质分化——那些真正顶级、兼具学术与美学价值的稀世化石将获得应有的认可与高溢价，而普通低质标的则会被剔除。 谈到全球化石的宏观存量（已被机构和私人收藏的化石数量，与埋藏在地下尚未发现的数量对比），Salomon 直言目前没有任何人能给出确切数字，人类目前所挖掘的仅仅是“冰山一角”（Tip of the iceberg）。阻碍更多化石被发现的核心瓶颈在于发掘过程的极高门槛： - 发掘工作具有极强的季节性限制，往往只能在一年中特定的几个月内进行； - 现场作业属于高度劳动密集型工作，需要庞大的专业人手与工程设备； - 承担极大的财务亏损风险。商业恐龙探险家经常耗费整整一个挖掘季（Dig season），最终却两手空空一无所获。 正是由于过去十年恐龙化石价格的飞涨，使得这种高风险、高成本的野外发掘工作在经济层面上变得切实可行（Financially feasible），从而激励了更多商业探险家深入地层去发掘标的并将其推向市场。 ### `10:00` 恐龙化石的发掘经济学与美国私有土地法则 恐龙化石的发掘在很大程度上受市场价格驱动。过去，探险者在挖掘季发现某种恐龙的部分骨骼时，很可能会根据预期收益权衡：“按照这个价格算，花掉剩余的挖掘季去挖这具骨骼根本不划算”，从而选择放弃；但随着近年来拍卖行情暴涨，曾经“不划算”的化石标本也逐渐变得具备商业开采价值。针对“一具恐龙化石究竟是如何被发现并推向市场”的问题，Salomon Aaron 详细拆解了背后的运作模式。 各国对于恐龙化石挖掘与所有权的法律规定截然不同。Salomon Aaron 强调，作为画廊，他们**只交易来自美国的恐龙化石**。这是因为美国的产权法律非常清晰明确：只要化石是在私人土地（Private Land）上发掘出来的，在获得土地所有者、化石猎人等所有相关方许可的前提下，将其合法出售是完全受法律保护的。而在许多其他国家，法律环境模糊甚至充满法律风险；即便某些地区偶尔有特许条款或出口许可证，他也坚决不建议任何人卷入其中，最安全稳妥的策略就是聚焦美国本土标本。 在商业合作层面上，画廊扮演着零售画廊（Retail Gallery）的角色，通常直接与土地所有者或恐龙猎人合作。这些探索者常年在怀俄明州、蒙大拿州或南达科他州等地寻找化石迹象，一旦破土发现骨骼，就会第一时间拍照发邮件或致电画廊。商业模式大致分为三类： - **收益分成协议**：私人土地所有者与商业化石猎人签订协议，按比例瓜分标本出售后的利润。 - **牧场收购开采**：商业化石交易商直接买下整座牧场或大片土地，专门用来勘探并挖掘恐龙化石。 - **老藏家转售**：极少见的情况是从几十年前在市场上购入化石的私人藏家手中收购。但画廊极少接手此类交易，因为如今市场对来源证明（Provenance）的要求已发生翻天覆地的变化，老藏家几乎无法提供符合现代合规标准的完备文件。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 商业恐龙化石从勘探到画廊的供应链 accDescr: 展示了从土地与勘探到画廊尽职调查与最终销售的完整合规闭环流程。 subgraph S1["前期勘探与土地产权"] A["美国私人土地<br/>(怀俄明/蒙大拿/南达科他)"] B["合作模式确认<br/>(分成协议 / 买断牧场)"] A --> B end subgraph S2["挖掘现场与第一手证据"] C["骨骼原位发现<br/>(现场拍照/视频打卡)"] D["技术与法律核验<br/>(GPS坐标 + 地契产权)"] B --> C C --> D end subgraph S3["画廊流转与终端合规"] E["古董级严格尽职调查<br/>(David Aaron 画廊)"] F["面向藏家与博物馆<br/>合法流通"] D --> E E --> F end ``` --- ### `12:15` 从古董交易降维打击：化石来源审查（Provenance）的合规演进 回溯十五到二十年前，恐龙化石的私人交易相当原始粗放，买家往往只要收到一张手写并签名的纸条——上面写着“这是我在橡树山路15号（15 Oak Hill Road）自家院子里挖出来的”——便足以完成交易。然而，伴随单件标本价值飙升至数百万乃至数千万美元，这种粗糙的做法已经无法为买家提供足够的法律保障。 David Aaron 团队原本深耕古典艺术品（Ancient Art）、古希腊罗马大理石雕塑及伊斯兰艺术（Islamic Art）。在古董艺术品市场中，对来源审查的要求极为苛刻：一件艺术品如何流入市场、是否有合法离开原产国的出口凭证，必须拿出铁证，否则买家或博物馆根本不敢承担产权被追讨的巨大风险。当画廊进军恐龙化石领域时，他们将这套严苛的古董级尽调体系完整移植了过来，制定出针对化石的内部排查清单： - **产权证明（Land Deeds）**：必须提供土地产权证，以法律形式证明土地所有者拥有该化石无可争议的法定所有权。 - **出土 GPS 坐标**：精确锁定发现化石的地理经纬度，确保其位于私有土地边界以内而非国家公园或联邦公有土地。 - **利益协议与多方声明**：出示猎人与地主之间的分成及销售合同，并附带挖掘现场所有工作人员的协同证明文件，记录发现经过。 - **原位（In Situ）实时影像**：对于重要的化石标本，画廊要求提供出土时未受扰动的现场实时录像，以证明骨骼是一体出土，绝非后期为了抬高完整度而人为拼凑或掺杂外部碎骨。 - **实地专家考察**：画廊会亲自派员或委托外部古生物专家赶赴发掘现场，在挖掘过程中进行现场核实与查验。 通过这套“多重锁”，买家与博物馆获得了百分之百的法律确定性，完全明确化石是“在何时、在何地、由何人、在谁的土地上经何种授权被发现的”。 --- ### `18:00` 独立专家背书与骨骼分布图（Bone Map）的真实性难题 当被问及是否会使用热释光（Thermoluminescence Testing）等第三方物理科技手段来测定化石年代时，Salomon Aaron 表示这视具体情况而定。相较于年代测定，更关键的环节是聘请独立的第三方顾问、古生物学家或专门物种研究学者在标本公开销售前进行专业鉴定。例如，画廊近期售出的一具距今1.5亿年前的侏罗纪恐龙骨架，他们直接联系了全球专门研究该物种的顶尖学者，将详细影像资料发送给对方进行权威诊断与形态核实。 此外，画廊还会聘请艺术品修复专家（Conservators），核心任务是绘制并校对一份详尽的“骨骼分布图”（Bone Map）。自然界中几乎不可能发现百分之百完整的恐龙骨架，商业市场上组装完整的化石展品，实质上是由实际出土的真骨与树脂（Resin）浇筑件、3D打印部件拼接而成的。对于任何买家而言，最核心的问题莫过于“我买到的东西里到底有多少是真的”： - **真假骨骼透明度**：在普通化石商店里，买家询问真骨比例时，店家通常只会拿出一本像涂色书一样的印刷骨骼素描图，用颜色标注出哪些是真实骨骼、哪些是人工补件。 - **专业测绘的演变**：近十五到二十年来，严肃的恐龙化石市场对骨骼图的精确度与专业度要求日益严苛，不仅要有严谨的骨骼图解，还需要艺术修复师与古生物学家共同交叉确认，保证每一块真骨与人造填充骨的位置清晰透明、绝无隐瞒欺诈。 ### `20:00` 骨骼图的玄机与缺乏审查的狂野市场 在恐龙化石交易中，一份看似完整的“骨骼分布图”（bone map）往往暗藏玄机。卖家通常会在图上标注某一部位是否存在，但现实情况是，即便该骨骼仅保留了 5% 的残片，卖家也会声称拥有腓骨、脊椎骨或爪子。更有甚者，有人甚至会将一块骨头直接折断成两截，借此在骨骼图上将该部位的“完整度”翻倍。为了规避这种误导，David Aaron 画廊不仅坚持聘请古生物学专家严格鉴定标本的物种归属，还要求专业文物修复师绘制独家设计的骨骼分布图，精确标出每根骨头实际存留的质量百分比。 与发展成熟的传统艺术品市场相比，恐龙化石市场目前仍处于野蛮生长阶段。在传统艺术界，艺术顾问和咨询机构林立，若画廊希望入驻全球顶尖的艺术博览会，必须通过极为严苛的委员会审查（vetting requirements）；而化石市场至今缺乏这种多层次的监督与制约机制。不过，随着私人藏家群体迅速壮大、全球多座新自然历史博物馆相继筹建，行业正倒逼出更为透明的流通体系与完整度呈现标准。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 化石完整度披露与市场规范演进 accDescr: 展现传统粗放标图与画廊严格鉴别标准及市场未来透明化趋势的对比。 subgraph Trap["传统化石骨骼图陷阱"] A["仅存 5% 碎骨 / 折断骨骼"] --> B["在骨骼图上标记为存在"] B --> C["纸面完整度虚高 / 严重误导买家"] end subgraph Standard["David Aaron 画廊鉴真流程"] D["古生物学专家审核"] --> E["文物修复师介入绘制"] E --> F["精确标注各骨骼实际留存百分比"] end subgraph Future["市场成熟化趋势"] G["私人藏家激增 + 全球新博物馆建立"] --> H["引入艺术市场式审查机制与透明度规范"] end ``` --- ### `21:45` 北美寻龙热线：为什么是怀俄明与北达科他？ 针对北美化石发掘高度集中于怀俄明州和北达科他州等地的现象，主持人提出了疑问：这究竟是因为该地区的史前恐龙密度本身就极高，还是仅仅因为地广人稀、容易挖掘？（毕竟即便纽约市地下埋藏着恐龙骨骼，也没人能把地表掘开寻找）。 Salomon Aaron 解释称，这其实是多重因素共同作用的结果： - **可开掘的闲置土地**：当地拥有辽阔且未被城市化占用的土地资源，具备进行大规模地表发掘的物理条件。 - **气候与季节窗口**：暴雪冰冻天气无法施工，而极端高温天气同样令人难以忍受，发掘工作只能在适宜的季节窗口期进行。 - **地质侵蚀与自然循环**：当地长期的地质风化与气候循环不断翻动、侵蚀地表土层，使得深埋地下的化石层得以自然暴露，极大降低了寻找与挖掘的难度。 --- ### `22:45` 天价里程碑：从“苏”、“斯坦”到“顶点”的价值重塑 对于经历千万年岁月的化石而言，如何进行市场定价始终是一大难题。在古典艺术品或伊斯兰艺术品交易中，古董商们有着成熟的历史坐标系——只要看一眼新收购的藏品，就能清楚指出这件与 1998 年拍卖行成交的那件一模一样，或者曾收录于 1972 年的某本图录中。然而，恐龙化石市场缺乏这种连续的参照系，长久以来的定价呈现出极大的随机性与波动性。 恐龙化石身价的分水岭出现在 2020 年左右佳士得对霸王龙“斯坦”（Stan）的拍卖上。“斯坦”是一具骨骼极为完整、著述丰富且极具知名度的标志性标本，最终被阿布扎比自然历史博物馆以接近 3180 万美元的天价买下。在此之前，恐龙拍卖的世界纪录是由霸王龙“苏”（Sue）在 2000 年代初创下的约 836 万美元（由多家企业联合赞助购得，现永久陈列于芝加哥菲尔德自然史博物馆）。在“苏”之后的近二十年里，几乎没有任何标本能突破 800 万美元大关。 过去化石价格偏低，核心原因在于“缺乏曝光度”——绝大多数高净值人群根本不知道私人可以合法购买恐龙化石。David Aaron 画廊率先打破了这堵高墙，成为首家把恐龙化石作为艺术品带入顶级艺术博览会的商业画廊。他们将艺术市场的全套规则注入化石交易：引入艺术品级别的尽职调查、撰写详尽的品相保存报告、为化石量身打造极简主义风格的独立展架。当这些史前巨兽亮相艺术展时，现场观众纷纷惊呼：“我原来根本不知道自己还能买下一只霸王龙或三角龙的头骨！” 随着主流拍卖行将化石包装成轰动性新闻，大批科技新贵（tech bros）和私人藏家携带着专业顾问涌入市场，促成了近几年的价格大爆发： - **三角龙“大约翰”（Big John）**：2021 年前后在巴黎以约 800 万美元成交；而此前公开拍卖中几乎从未有三角龙突破百万美元，十多年前佳士得甚至曾有一具三角龙在 50 万美元价位流拍。 - **迅猛龙“赫克托”（Hector）**：拍出了约 1200 万至 1300 万美元。 - **剑龙“顶点”（Apex）**：由 Citadel 创始人肯·格里芬（Ken Griffin）在苏富比以约 4460 万美元（近 4500 万美元）竞得，刷新历史纪录。 - **苏富比近期的另一件大型标本**：亦斩获了 3700 万美元的高价。 这种爆炸式增长彻底重构了行业底层的利益链条。一线恐龙猎人和拥有土地的农场主一旦见识过数千万美元的拍卖神话，就绝不可能再接受五年前或十年前的旧收购价。 --- ### `26:34` 拼凑骨架的争议与平民级收藏 面对如此高昂的造价与极其罕见的完整骨架，市场上是否存在大量的单块零散骨骼（如股骨、脚骨、鼻骨）交易？又是否允许将来自多只不同个体的骨骼拼装成一具“完整恐龙”（composite / assemblage）？ Salomon Aaron 表示，拼凑与零碎骨骼在市场上极为普遍，但各家经营理念大相径庭： - **高端艺术画廊定位**：David Aaron 画廊的策略是“少而精”，坚决不涉足拼凑型骨架（composites）。他们虽会经手局部残件，但前提是该残件本身必须具备出色的视觉美感或独特的学术历史价值。 - **大众矿物展与碎骨交易**：对于预算有限的爱好者，普通矿物展上充斥着售价仅数百美元的牙齿和小块骨骼；非美国本土产出的化石价格通常也更加亲民。 - **反对过度人工修复**：部分化石商倾向于大量填充人造树脂来凑出完整骨骼，甚至整具标本呈现出“20% 真骨、80% 树脂”的畸形状态。Salomon 则坚持最大程度保持天然状态，宁可展示纯粹的骨骼残片，也绝不过度修复造假。 在轻松的闲聊中，Salomon 透露自己的私人宅邸里也收藏了一支三角龙的角和几颗霸王龙牙齿。Joe 随即提到自己在 David Aaron 画廊的官网上看到了一颗标价 8500 英镑的恐龙牙齿，标注可能属于霸王龙（T-Rex）或蛇发女怪龙（Gorgosaurus），直呼“看起来不仅个头大，而且似乎还挺买得起”。Salomon 幽默地回应称，如果 Joe 下次来伦敦，画廊一定给他打折；而之所以并列标注两种恐龙，正是出于画廊对物种鉴定一贯的审慎与严谨态度。 ### `31:40` 恐龙化石采购的现实：激烈的竞争与“预购”机制 在恐龙化石市场蓬勃发展的背景下，买家想要购入一件真正顶级的标本并非易事。在过去，由于某些买家对拼接件（composites）或真伪缺乏足够的鉴别，在市场上买下了不该买的骨骼，或者支付了过高的溢价；但随着涌入该领域的资金激增，更严格的审视与检验标准正在逐步规范市场。更关键的是，如今顶级化石的稀缺度导致买家无法像逛艺术画廊那样，推门走进去就要求“把幕布后珍藏的霸王龙（T-Rex）拿出来看看”。 想要买到顶级标本，真正的玩法是在化石被完全清理和修复（prep）之前就进行“预购”（pre-acquire）。所罗门·亚伦（Salomon Aaron）分享了一个典型案例：他曾向一位希望化石能用于科学研究并公开展览的慈善型私人藏家出售了一具极其完整的恐龙骨骼——该标本可能属于马什龙（Marshosaurus），甚至可能是一个未知的全新物种。为了做成这笔交易，亚伦提前数年与客户达成共识并敲定策略，随后在各地挖掘现场不断物色刚出土的线索。一旦发现潜力标本，他就会立刻向客户汇报：“这块化石刚刚出土，目前挖出了这些部分；土地所有者的开价是这么多，预估后续的清理修复成本是这么多。”买家必须在出土初期就下注预购；如果等到整具化石被完全清理组装好，它就会进入公开市场，届时私人藏家将不得不与主权财富基金（sovereign wealth funds）、中东石油富豪（petrodollar estates）以及苏富比（Sotheby's）、佳士得（Christie's）的拍卖场竞价，不仅价格会被推向天价，甚至可能彻底错失机会。这具马什龙骨骼目前已被出借至英国科尔彻斯特博物馆（Colchester Museum）公开展览。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 顶级恐龙化石预购流程图 accDescr: 展示私人藏家如何在出土早期通过画廊预购化石，以避开公开拍卖的激烈竞争。 subgraph 挖掘与发现阶段 A["私人土地上发现恐龙骨骼"] --> B["画廊向藏家提供初步出土报告"] end subgraph 锁定与承购阶段 B --> C["藏家支付土地主费用及预估修复成本（预购）"] C --> D["专业化石实验室进行精细清理与组装"] end subgraph 最终归宿 D --> E["出借给博物馆进行科研与公开展览"] D -. "若未预购".-> F["流入拍卖行，与主权基金及石油资本竞价"] end ``` --- ### `34:50` 谁在买恐龙？科技新贵与“侏罗纪公园一代” 恐龙化石市场的买家画像正在发生明显转变。与传统古代文物（antiquities）或伊斯兰艺术品（Islamic art）相对老龄化的藏家群体不同，恐龙化石的买家群体呈现出显著的年轻化特征，并且高度集中在科技界（Tech）和科学界背景。 这一代藏家很大程度上是伴随着电影《侏罗纪公园》（*Jurassic Park*）长大的一代人，他们在童年时期就对恐龙建立了浓厚的情感与敬畏感。当他们积累了巨额财富后，购买恐龙化石成为一种将儿时梦想与科学好奇心结合的方式。 --- ### `35:40` 私人资本是阻碍科研还是推动科学？ 针对学术界长期批评私人交易使化石脱离科学研究的问题，亚伦承认，确实存在某些珍贵标本因私人交易而流失、导致科研人员无法接触的遗憾局面；但从商业交易商的角度来看，权衡利弊后，私人市场的存在对公众和科研的整体贡献反而是正向的。如果没有私人商业市场的巨额资金驱动，很多恐龙化石根本不会被挖掘出土并重见天日。 作为一家注重博物馆合作的画廊，大卫·亚伦画廊（David Aaron）在拿到新标本时，通常会先向博物馆学者和策展人咨询，给予博物馆优先权，甚至扮演私人藏家与公立博物馆之间的桥梁： - **物色新物种**：去年该画廊购入了一具全新的恐龙物种标本，并向英国自然历史博物馆（Natural History Museum, UK）展示。 - **馆方评估与无条件保留**：博物馆策展团队兴奋地表示该标本对馆藏具有“颠覆性意义”（transformative piece），画廊随即为博物馆提供了长达数月的无条件保留期（unconditional reserve）。 - **私人资助模式**：经过 6 到 9 个月的努力，画廊找到了一位热心公益的私人收藏家出资买下这具化石捐赠/提供给博物馆，同时该藏家还额外提供了一笔专项研究资金供学者进行科研。 --- ### `37:30` 博物馆借展模式与新一代赞助人文化 当私人买家购入化石并将其安置在博物馆时，合作条款通常因博物馆而异。一些机构对私人市场极为谨慎甚至设立硬性门槛，彻底禁止与商业交易相关的标本合作；而另一些机构则态度开放。 在促成借展或捐赠合作时，建立信任至关重要： - 画廊与藏家必须向馆方明确坦白意图，证明安排借展绝不是为了“在博物馆镀金 3 年提升化石价值后再送去拍卖行套现”，而是真正出于长期捐赠或公益研究的目的。 - 传统艺术博物馆的墙壁上通常挂满了密密麻麻的艺术赞助人名单（patron groups），然而自然历史博物馆以往却缺乏这种成熟的赞助人生态圈。 - 恐龙化石市场的兴起正在培育新一代的自然科学赞助人。例如，亿万富翁肯·格里芬（Ken Griffin）在拍卖行以近 4,500 万美元拍下剑龙骨骼“顶峰”（Apex）后，迅速将其安排在纽约的博物馆公开展出供公众参观，业界也普遍预期他未来很可能会选择将其正式捐赠。 ### `40:00` 投机陷阱与恐龙化石的真正价值所在 所罗门·亚伦（Salomon Aaron）谈到，常有朋友和客户跑来找他求购化石，甚至他的老同学也总抱怨：“你怎么还没帮我弄到一个三角龙头骨？”面对这些请求，亚伦总是告诫大家：绝不能以纯投资的心态入场，购买恐龙化石必须源于发自内心的热爱与敬畏。站在一具 6600 万年前漫步地球的巨兽骨骼面前，那种震撼与敬畏感是无与伦比的。然而，若抱着投机目的入场则极其危险，因为市场变量不可预测：美国政府未来可能收紧或禁止私人化石贸易，这固然可能让你手中完好的三角龙头骨暴涨百倍，但也有可能因高昂房价导致买家空间不足而使行情受挫。在现实中，不少投机客在拍卖会上拍下化石，仅过半年或一年就急于转手抛售，这种短线套利完全违背了真正藏家长久相伴的初衷。在竞争白热化的化石市场中，任何远低于市价的兜售都应当被视作极大的危险信号（Red flag），买家唯一可依靠的便是扎实的尽职调查、合规来源以及在公允价值下成交。 当主持人问及食肉恐龙是否比食草恐龙更值钱时，亚伦给出了极其肯定的回答。买家往往直截了当地提出需求：“我要牙齿、我要吓人的东西，放在家里转角处能把人吓个半死的那种。”因此，霸王龙（T-Rex）、蛇发女怪龙（Gorgosaurus）、异特龙（Allosaurus）等肉食性恐龙骨骼极其抢手。只要市场上出现一个保存完好、品相极佳的霸王龙头部骨骼，往往瞬间就会有五六个超级藏家排队，他们仅凭电子邮件里的照片就愿意提前汇款抢购。相比之下，食草恐龙除三角龙等头部标志性物种外，普遍吸引力稍逊。不过，亚伦希望藏家能摆脱这种“唯物种论”或盲目看骨骼分布图（bone map）完整百分比的浅薄做法。衡量化石价值的核心在于理解该物种的发掘常态与关键部位：例如体长仅约 1.5 米、距今 1.5 亿年的侏罗纪侏儒恐龙侏伶龙（Nanosaurus），因骨骼脆弱且极罕见有头骨留存，若能达到 50% 的骨骼完整度并带有脚爪，就已是稀世珍宝；反之，若是一具骨骼粗壮耐磨的三角龙只有 50% 完整度，则吸引力大打折扣。更关键的是不可替代的核心特征——如果霸王龙头骨上的牙齿全是人工后配的，或者三角龙头骨缺失了标志性的角，即便其他下颌骨或骨颈褶再完整，其收藏与科学价值也将荡然无存。 - **肉食龙溢价机制**：藏家极度偏好具备尖牙与威慑感的兽脚类恐龙，霸王龙及异特龙幼体等顶级掠食者常年在私洽市场引发盲订抢购。 - **价值评估维度**： - 物种天然保存难度（如小型骨骼脆弱的侏伶龙对标大型厚重骨骼的角龙类）。 - 核心特征保留度（霸王龙的原始真牙、三角龙的角骨，重要性远超普通下颌或骨片）。 - 骨骼地图（Bone Map）背后真实的骨质成色与原始占比，而非单纯的人工填色比例。 --- ### `45:00` 挖掘前端的“风投”风险与恐龙复活的终极幽默 针对藏家是否能像风险投资（VC）一样，在化石刚开始勘探发掘时就提前注资入股以锁定低价，亚伦给出了明确的劝诫：绝对不推荐私人藏家介入这一阶段。尽管这听起来像是在为迅猛龙（Velociraptor）提供早期风投一样刺激，但其背后的实操风险极高。地处偏远荒野的发掘现场充满道德风险与信息不对称，坐在纽约或伦敦办公室里的投资者根本无法监管现场团队，甚至无法得知发掘人员是否私藏骨骼。亚伦苦笑着分享了自己作为交易商的惨痛教训：“很多时候你买下了一批骨头，卖家却故意扣下几块关键骨骼，六个月后打电话敲诈说‘我又找到几块你急需的骨头，想要就加钱’。”这种层出不穷的行业乱象让他觉得自己苍老了许多，因此他强烈建议藏家将这种高压与头疼的风险外包给专业交易商，仅与极少数值得信赖的伙伴合作。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 化石产业链前期风险与交易链条 accDescr: 展示私人藏家盲目参与化石挖掘早期前端所面临的高风险流程 subgraph S1["勘探与发掘前端（高风险盲盒）"] A["私人藏家早期注资 (化石VC)"] --> B["偏远野外现场作业"] B --> C{"现场道德与管理风险"} C -->|"骨骼被私藏/流失"| D["发掘标的不合预期"] C -->|"恶意扣留关键骨骼"| E["后期遭卖家敲诈要价"] end subgraph S2["专业画廊/交易商介入（风险隔离）"] D & E -.-> F["专业交易商承担风险筛选"] F --> G["出土骨骼专业清修与定名"] G --> H["合规完整标的交付藏家"] end ``` 谈话随后转向了一个极富想象力的话题：是否有人正在尝试复活恐龙？这是否会造成化石资产被“无限增发”的终极黑天鹅事件？主持人提到了近期关于灭绝狼种复活以及基因科学突破的新闻，亚伦一开始半开玩笑地顺着话茬断言“有生之年必然发生”，甚至调侃在人工智能与生物技术加持下，“20年内彭博总部大楼里说不定就会有三角龙到处漫步”。在主持人的错愕追问下，亚伦大笑着澄清这只是个玩笑，恐龙绝不可能在现实中批量回归。回到严肃现实，主持人提出化石市场资金的蓬勃涌入是否能改善古生物学家的就业困境，让更多孩子的古生物学者梦想成真？亚伦给出了百分之百肯定的回答。他指出，随着超级藏家们不断投资并建立私人博物馆，流向古生物领域的资本正在几何级增长。大众对史前巨兽的追捧是跨圈层的，如果对比 Google 搜索趋势，恐龙的全球关注度甚至轻易碾压莫迪利亚尼（Modigliani）或杰夫·昆斯（Jeff Koons）等殿堂级现代艺术巨匠，这也是其画廊全面进军恐龙化石领域的核心逻辑。 - **化石风投化风险**：早期出资面临骨骼规格未知、现场团队监管真空，以及卖家后续恶意扣留关键骨骼进行坐地起价的敲诈风险。 - **古生物就业前景转化**：私人资本对顶级骨骼的追逐正在直接补贴发掘产业链，催生更多私人资助的博物馆与田野工作岗位。 - **大众文化与搜索热度**：在公众认知层面上，恐龙化石的社会关注度与文化穿透力远高于主流传统艺术大师（如莫迪利亚尼或杰夫·昆斯）。 ### `50:00` 恐龙的普世魅力与艺术市场的周期更迭 在探讨恐龙化石的市场价值时，萨洛蒙·亚伦（Salomon Aaron）指出了一个极具说服力的文化现象：在主流互联网搜索量上，当代艺术巨头如杰夫·昆斯（Jeff Koons）等人的关注度，被霸王龙（T-Rex）或三角龙（Triceratops）彻底碾压。恐龙在大众心中拥有一种近乎宇宙级的普世兴趣。画廊在参与各类艺术博览会时，展位常常被孩子们以及各个年龄段的参观者围得水泄不通。大众往往带着一种惊叹的误解走上前询问：“这具化石是不是要卖 5000 万还是 1 亿美元？”当萨洛蒙告诉他们，某些展品其实只要 50 万美元、5.5 万英镑，甚至更小巧的化石只需七八千英镑时，大家都倍感意外。 萨洛蒙指出，这恰恰解释了为何恐龙骨骼的价格在近年来会迎来爆发式增长。主流艺术品市场门类往往受制于审美周期的波动，许多现代大师的作品或者特定艺术流派每隔五到十年就可能失宠或遇冷；相比之下，孩子们乃至整个人类社会对恐龙的崇拜与着迷是永恒且超越世代的。乔·威森塔尔（Joe Weisenthal）对这一观点深表赞同，甚至半开玩笑地表示当晚就要告诉自家的孩子们，未来可以考虑投身恐龙化石这个行业。随着录音接近尾声，萨洛蒙向乔和特蕾西·阿洛韦（Tracy Alloway）发出了热情的邀请，期待他们在即将到来的 5 月伦敦之行中亲自到访大卫·亚伦（David Aaron）画廊，亲眼观赏那些令人惊叹的史前珍宝。 - **公众关注度对比**：恐龙（如三角龙、霸王龙）的公众搜索热度远远凌驾于当代顶流艺术家（如杰夫·昆斯）之上。 - **价格认知的落差**：公众普遍认为所有恐龙化石都标价数千万至上亿美元，但实际上市场存在广泛的价格区间，从数千英镑的局部化石到几十万英镑的标本皆有。 - **市场周期 vs. 永恒热度**：传统艺术品类经常面临 5 至 10 年一次的风格更迭和市场冷遇，而恐龙化石凭借对人类童年与好奇心的永恒吸引力，具备独特的保值逻辑。 ### `51:40` 私人资本介入化石挖掘的现实价值与潜在争议 萨洛蒙离开后，乔与特蕾西对整场访谈展开了深度复盘。特蕾西特别赞同萨洛蒙关于“恐龙具有普世性”的论点，正如乔所言，“只要你身上还有一丝人性，小时候就一定经历过恐龙狂热阶段”。从收藏家和博物馆的角度来看，艺术潮流来来去去，但“恐龙是永恒的”（dinosaurs are forever），要想长期吸引大众注意力，恐龙无疑是最具号召力的展品。 两人也严肃反思了恐龙私有化交易长期伴随的伦理焦虑。虽然学界常对私人买卖史前遗骸心存芥蒂，但商业资本的涌入客观上使大规模化石发掘在经济上变得完全可行。而且在现实中，许多被富豪买下的高价化石最终依然会租借或捐赠给博物馆，供古生物学家进行科研，这在很大程度上实现了一种“双赢”。特蕾西补充指出，这一领域并非毫无隐患，尤其是大规模发掘所带来的环境问题值得审视，例如俄罗斯猛犸象牙贸易对冻土和生态的破坏就是前车之鉴。不过不可否认的是，私人资本的撬动确实催生了一系列重大科学突破，正如此前萨洛蒙提到的在商业挖掘中意外发现未知新物种的案例。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 私人资本进入古生物发掘的运作机制 accDescr: 展示私人资本进入化石市场所带来的正负向影响机制，包括资金支持、科研合作及环境隐忧。 subgraph Capital ["私人资本入场"] A["高净值买家与商业画廊"] B["化石标本拍卖高估值"] end subgraph Excavation ["野外发掘与产业化"] C["填补科研发掘资金缺口"] D["大规模商业化挖掘推进"] end subgraph Impacts ["多方反馈与结果"] E["科学突破：发现未知新物种"] F["多数标本最终借展或捐赠博物馆"] G["潜在隐忧：挖掘引发的生态环境破坏"] end A --> C B --> D C --> E D --> F D -. 负外部性.-> G ``` ### `53:15` 恐龙演化辩论与“金色猛犸象”乌龙 在节目的轻松收尾阶段，两位主持人回顾了开场时关于“鸟类与恐龙关系”的争论。为了捍卫自己的观点，乔拿出了萨洛蒙在节目中提到的侏儒龙（Nanosaurus）骨骼复原图向特蕾西展示：“在你看来它长得像什么？”特蕾西不得不承认：“它看起来确实有点像只鸡。”乔乘胜追击，坚称那骨骼形态简直就是一只野鸡。面对确凿的视觉证据，特蕾西笑着宣告“投降”（Capitulation），承认它那短小的上肢和站姿确实极具禽类神韵。 紧接着，特蕾西无情地揭穿了乔在之前节目中的另一个大乌龙。乔此前曾津津乐道于在迈阿密看到的一具“镀金恐龙骨架”（实为达米恩·赫斯特在迈阿密海滩法埃纳酒店展出的作品），然而制作人卡门（Carmen Rodriguez）核实后提醒大家，那根本不是恐龙，而是一具镀金的猛犸象（Woolly Mammoth）骨架。乔得知后大为震惊，开始为自己的古生物常识进行搞笑的自辩：“猛犸象居然不算恐龙？那不就是一种长毛的史前大象吗！”乔自嘲道，在自己的朴素定义里，“只要长得像史前老动物，我就默认它是恐龙”。 特蕾西普及称猛犸象属于史前哺乳动物，而非恐龙。但乔随即把争论引向了另一个物种：“等等，那翼手龙（Pterodactyl）总该是恐龙了吧？”特蕾西表示自己专门查阅过文献，翼龙（Pterosaurs）虽然生活在晚侏罗世且与恐龙亲缘关系极近，但在严格的古生物分类学中并不属于恐龙。乔则打趣地表示，预料到节目播出后，他们的邮箱里肯定会塞满愤怒古生物学家纠错的抗议信，提前向所有听众致歉。 ### `55:10` 播客尾声与致谢 在澄清了翼龙的分类细节以及关于发音的玩笑后，乔和特蕾西正式为本期《Odd Lots》画上句号。两人向观众告别，并分别报出了自己的社交媒体账号（@TracyAlloway 和 @TheStalwart），同时感谢了幕后制作团队成员——制作人卡门·罗德里格斯（Carmen Rodriguez）、达希尔·贝内特（Dashel Bennett）与凯尔·布鲁克斯（Kel Brooks）。 特蕾西提醒听众访问彭博官网阅读《Odd Lots》每日简报，并邀请对化石市场、大宗商品及宏观金融感兴趣的听友加入 24 小时全天候开放的 Discord 官方社区展开讨论。节目最后呼吁喜爱古生物商业话题的听众在各大播客平台留下好评，并提示彭博订阅用户可通过 Apple Podcasts 享受全程无广告的纯净收听体验。 ## Notable quotes > `00:00` 爸爸，翼手龙在分类学上根本不属于恐龙，它只是某种史前爬行动物。 — Joe Weisenthal > `12:15` 这是我在橡树山路15号（15 Oak Hill Road）自家院子里挖出来的 — Salomon Aaron > `18:00` 我买到的东西里到底有多少是真的 > `22:45` 我原来根本不知道自己还能买下一只霸王龙或三角龙的头骨！ > `31:40` 把幕布后珍藏的霸王龙（T-Rex）拿出来看看 — Salomon Aaron > `31:40` 这块化石刚刚出土，目前挖出了这些部分；土地所有者的开价是这么多，预估后续的清理修复成本是这么多。 — Salomon Aaron > `40:00` 我要牙齿、我要吓人的东西，放在家里转角处能把人吓个半死的那种。 — Salomon Aaron > `45:00` 很多时候你买下了一批骨头，卖家却故意扣下几块关键骨骼，六个月后打电话敲诈说‘我又找到几块你急需的骨头，想要就加钱’。 — Salomon Aaron > `50:00` 这具化石是不是要卖 5000 万还是 1 亿美元？ > `51:40` 只要你身上还有一丝人性，小时候就一定经历过恐龙狂热阶段 — Joe Weisenthal > `51:40` 恐龙是永恒的 — Tracy Alloway > `53:15` 猛犸象居然不算恐龙？那不就是一种长毛的史前大象吗！ — Joe Weisenthal ## Mentioned Tracy Alloway, Joe Weisenthal, Salomon Aaron, Ken Griffin, Citadel, Bloomberg Audio Studios, David Aaron 画廊, 佳士得 (Christie's), 苏富比 (Sotheby's), 阿布扎比自然历史博物馆, 芝加哥菲尔德自然史博物馆, 英国自然历史博物馆 (Natural History Museum, UK), 科尔彻斯特博物馆 (Colchester Museum), 霸王龙“斯坦” (Stan), 霸王龙“苏” (Sue), 三角龙“大约翰” (Big John), 剑龙“顶点” (Apex), 迅猛龙“赫克托” (Hector), 达米恩·赫斯特 (Damien Hirst), 杰夫·昆斯 (Jeff Koons), 莫迪利亚尼 (Modigliani), 《侏罗纪公园》 (Jurassic Park), Carmen Rodriguez, Dashel Bennett, Kel Brooks ## Video description <p>Two years ago, Citadel's Ken Griffin paid <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2024-07-18/ken-griffin-s-45-million-dinosaur-buy-will-tempt-fossil-hunters" data-destination="bb:NSN SGTNCIDWRGG1">almost $45 million</a>&nbsp;for a stegosaurus skeleton, making it the most expensive fossil ever sold at auction. So why are dinosaur bones joining the collections of millionaires instead of museums? How does the private market for fossils actually work? And how similar is it to the market for art and other antiquities? In this episode, we speak with Salomon Aaron, a director at London-based gallery David Aaron, where he is the gallery's in-house broker for dinosaur fossils. We talk about how fossils are found and priced, what it's like to work alongside dinosaur hunters, how his gallery identifies potential buyers, and why Joe thinks something about the birds-to-dinosaurs evolutionary pipeline is off.</p> <p><a href="http://bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots" data-link-cookie="1" data-destination="http://bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots">Subscribe to the Odd Lots Newsletter</a><br>Join the conversation: <a href="https://discord.gg/oddlots" data-destination="https://discord.gg/oddlots">discord.gg/oddlots</a></p><p>See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.</p> [Source](https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/8a94442e-5a74-4fa2-8b8d-ae27003a8d6b/f7957569-770c-45d3-a4e4-b43c01323ab8/audio.mp3?in_playlist=982f5071-765c-403d-969d-ae27003a8d83)

[0:00] Joe Weisenthal: 爸爸，翼手龙在分类学上根本不属于恐龙，它只是某种史前爬行动物。 [12:15] Salomon Aaron: 这是我在橡树山路15号（15 Oak Hill Road）自家院子里挖出来的 [18:00] 我买到的东西里到底有多少是真的 [22:45] 我原来根本不知道自己还能买下一只霸王龙或三角龙的头骨！ [31:40] Salomon Aaron: 把幕布后珍藏的霸王龙（T-Rex）拿出来看看 [31:40] Salomon Aaron: 这块化石刚刚出土，目前挖出了这些部分；土地所有者的开价是这么多，预估后续的清理修复成本是这么多。 [40:00] Salomon Aaron: 我要牙齿、我要吓人的东西，放在家里转角处能把人吓个半死的那种。 [45:00] Salomon Aaron: 很多时候你买下了一批骨头，卖家却故意扣下几块关键骨骼，六个月后打电话敲诈说‘我又找到几块你急需的骨头，想要就加钱’。 [50:00] 这具化石是不是要卖 5000 万还是 1 亿美元？ [51:40] Joe Weisenthal: 只要你身上还有一丝人性，小时候就一定经历过恐龙狂热阶段 [51:40] Tracy Alloway: 恐龙是永恒的 [53:15] Joe Weisenthal: 猛犸象居然不算恐龙？那不就是一种长毛的史前大象吗！

[0:00] Tracy Alloway: Chickens have a total reptilian vibe. You can see it. [4:14] Tracy Alloway: Once you get to a certain level of wealth, I guess you get into art or you get into antiquities. Or nowadays, maybe you get into dinosaur bones. [6:50] Salomon Aaron: The dinosaur fossil market is starting to resemble other areas of the art market, but it's still quite a distance from that point... all of the rules relating to how you deal in dinosaur fossils are still being hammered out. [10:04] Salomon Aaron: We only deal in American dinosaur fossils because the rules are very clear. If you find a dinosaur fossil on private land, you can legally sell it... [16:03] Salomon Aaron: Dinosaur fossils aren't discovered completely intact... They are assembled from what is discovered and then that's mixed in with resin parts or 3D-printed bones to complete the specimen. [32:00] Salomon Aaron: If you want to buy an amazing dinosaur fossil, you're looking at having to pre-buy it prior to prepping... by the time this is acquired and prepped and complete, we're competing against sovereign wealth funds. [45:00] Salomon Aaron: There are situations where you acquire something, and the seller holds back a couple of bones. Then six months later, you get a phone call saying, 'By the way, I did find a couple other bones that you would really want to buy now,' and they extort you... I feel like I've aged disproportionately.

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Healthcare doesn always work great If you ever waited on a refill or couldn schedule an appointment you get it That the kind of stuff Optum is changing They using data and technology to integrate patient care pharmacy and everything else So healthcare is connected not complicated What that look like Cheaper prescriptions that are easier to get and care that looks at the whole person how you need it Optum is helping make healthcare work as one for everyone. Learn more at business.optum.com. Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio, news. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. Joe, when you were a kid, or do your children now, are they into dinosaurs? Did you go through a dinosaur phase? Yeah, yeah, absolutely. I loved dinosaurs as a kid. My kids are, of course, into dinosaurs. They're really into not only dinosaurs, but telling me which prehistoric animals aren't dinosaurs. Wait, does this come up a lot in conversation? Yeah, because I'm a troll to them. So I'll be like, what's your favorite? Oh, no, Joe. No, but I'll say things like, what's your favorite dinosaur? Mine's the pterodactyl. And then my daughter rolls her eyes like, dad, pterodactyl is not technically a dinosaur. Wait, is that true? I did not know that. Yeah yeah Wait explain It something I don understand it Apparently it not technically a dinosaur It a prehistoric animal of some different nature that is technically not Look it up. All right. Well, look it up. Learn something new every day. I'm kind of. You know what? I'm going to sound like a crank here. I'm not a flat earther, but I like sort of I'm skeptical of dinosaurs. I'm sure they existed. And I know we have fossil records of them. But here's what I don't get. OK. And I know this isn't technically the topic, but I'm just kidding. So it's like, okay, we had all these animals, and they're really crazy looking, these big beasts, and they sort of look like dragons in some cases, or lizards, or gigantic. And then they all went extinct for some reason, probably a meteor or something. And then evolution started again. We got a new set, and the new animals don't look anything like the dinosaurs, by and large. That's not true. Chickens look like little dinosaurs. Come on. No, they don't. Yeah, they do. I'm sorry, they don't. They don't. They do. They don't. I've seen Jurassic Park. I've been to the museum. I love looking at the fossil records. I know what chickens look like. No, chickens have a total reptilian vibe. You can see it. I disagree. All right. Okay, so this podcast is going to be... But where's the Tyrannosaurus Rex? Like, there's nothing that looks like a Tyrannosaurus. There's nothing that looks like a Brontosaurus. Strong disagree A lot of birds look like T Okay Oh this is the other thing Like oh there were birds and they actually had feathers That certainly not how they depicted in like a lot of Well, when you were growing up. A lot of birds look like T-Rexes. What? Yes. No, they don't. They do. No, they don't. Okay. This could be 60 minutes of Joe and I arguing. A bird looks like a T-Rex? What? It does. Come on. You need to look at more birds, Joe. That's your problem. Okay, rather than us keep going with this, we're going to talk about a market, an interesting market, a market that unusually for nowadays is actually going up and is at records, and that is the fossil market, the dinosaur fossil market. Okay, now this I'm very interested. I believe that fossils exist. Okay. I'm glad we established that. But I'm also like, you know, I actually was at a dinner once and I met someone who is a commercial fossil pursuer, hunter, collector, whatever. Sounds like they're worth quite a bit of money or they can be. Yeah. So every once in a while. But I don't know anything about it. Every once in a while you see these headlines like, you know, a new set of fossils or a new set of bones sold for a record price. So the one that jumps out at me because it has a finance angle is Kemp. [5:00] Griffin buying a stegosaurus skeleton for, I think, something like $45 million a couple years back. I think that was the most expensive fossil ever sold. But anecdotally, some of the things I've been reading are saying that fossils are becoming more of a thing. Once you get to a certain level of wealth, I guess you get into art or you get into antiquities. Or nowadays, maybe you get into dinosaur bones. There's one of those really fancy South Beach hotels. they have a big full i forget which a big dinosaur thing in their lobby and i think even like gold-plated or something it looks absolutely like is a real fossil that i think so and it's ostentatiously miami or something like that yeah oh wow okay if i had a lot of money and i was done collecting art and i was done collecting rare books maybe i'd move on to dinosaurs i should just say this this podcast is not just of interest to people that have millions of dollars to spend on dinosaur fossils it is also an interesting market structure question and sourcing um scenario i guess because as you say there are commercial dinosaur hunters out there but there are also a lot of regulations around what you can and cannot sell there are also a lot of you know ethical questions that come up Should these be in museums or should they be gold in a Miami lobby somewhere You know what else is something interesting I just looked on the terminal and right now dinosaur future fossils are in backwardation. What? No, I made that completely. There's no dinosaur futures. There's certainly not a futures curve. I made that up. Oh my God. I was actually really excited for a second. I didn't get excited about that. That's just pure fabrication we should we should request it um okay all right without further ado i am pleased to say we do in fact have the perfect guest we're going to be speaking with salomon erin he's a director at david erin which is a london-based antiquities islamic art and dinosaur fossil gallery so someone who actually buys and sells fossils for a living so sal thank you so much for coming on our thoughts my pleasure it's lovely to be with you both and to have this conversation so maybe just to situate ourselves is the fossil market similar to the art market or the antiquities market is it different in in some way like give us some comparatives as we think through dinosaur fossils as an asset class with pleasure would you mind if i uh give a bit of context and just uh build up to the present of course of course that the dinosaur fossil market is starting to resemble other areas of the art market but it still quite a distance from that point The principal reason being that it's a very underdeveloped, recently growing and attracting interest market. It doesn't have the depth of kind of research, market parallels, pricing comps that the other areas of the art market does. And all of the rules relating to how you deal in dinosaur forces are still being hammered out, which we can delve into, kind of condition, authenticity, attribution, provenance. All of these things are still developing. and so it's true that the market has been booming over the past 10 years but I think that's changing in a way as the market slightly matures hopefully there's going to be a kind of a flight to quality and much more differentiation between kind of the great dinosaur fossils that deserve and are finally getting their you know the recognition and others which shouldn't be so it I don know if that in many ways kind of answers your question No that a great place to start So when we think about the broad universe of let just start with the universe of fossils rather than collected fossils Do we have a sense of like, how many are in museums, private collections, etc. And how much is still in the ground yet to be found? So I can't accurately answer that question, because I don't think anybody really knows what's still left to be discovered. I imagine that we're kind of at the tip of the iceberg. In terms of discovery? Yeah, definitely. The issue with kind of why more isn't discovered is it's extremely time and kind of labor intensive to discover a dinosaur. You need to be able to excavate at a certain time of the year. It requires a lot of manpower. It's a financial risk because you know there are dinosaur explorers that will go you know a whole dig season looking for something and come up with nothing and as a result you know what's happened is as the market has exploded over the past 10 years it's becoming much more financially feasible for people to kind of look for dinosaurs and to bring things to the market so that kind of the rising prices are hugely increasing the [10:00] apply of dinosaur fossils because it may have been in the past if someone had discovered kind of elements of a particular species or a specimen, they'd say, OK, based on the numbers, this isn't worth me spending the rest of my dig season trying to uncover the rest of this. But as the numbers go up, it all becomes more feasible. Yeah. So on this note, walk us through a sort of canonical example, I guess, of a dinosaur fossil being discovered. Like who actually funds this expedition? Who goes out and tries to find it? And then what happens once they do? Okay, so the rules relating to how and where you find a dinosaur fossil, very dependent on country. We only deal in American dinosaur fossils because the rules are very clear. If you find a dinosaur fossil on private land, you can legally sell it as long as you have the permission of all parties, the landowner, the dinosaur hunter, etc. In other countries, it's more shady. They might have exceptions. You might be able to get export permits, but I not recommend anybody to get involved or do that I just suggest focus on American dinosaur fossils So to talk you through the process or how it works with us as a gallery we a retail gallery we will work with landowners and dinosaur explorers who will kind of go out in Wyoming or in Montana or South Dakota or wherever that may be, look for dinosaur fossils and call us or email us when they have kind of images of bones as soon as they're discovered. And the way it works is, in some cases, it's the landowner who is entering into agreements with a dinosaur hunter, for example, to split profit. In some cases, it's kind of commercial dinosaur dealers who will acquire ranches or land, hoping to kind of, for the purpose of finding dinosaur fossils on that on that property. And least often is you might buy something from a private collector who bought it decades ago on the market himself. We very rarely do that because the rules relating to provenance have changed so drastically that it's unlikely that somebody who offered a dinosaur for sale a long period of time decades ago will have all of the paperwork we would want to see today to feel comfortable with being able to offer it to privates or to museums What are the rules of provenance As I said the rules have been developing and different dealers will kind of require different amounts of due diligence But obviously the more certainty you have that, you know, you know exactly where and when and by whom and with what permissions a dinosaur fossil is discovered, the more confidence you have as a buyer. So for example, we will insist on GPS coordinates. We'll need to see land deeds showing that whoever owns it proves their legal title. GPS coordinates as it's discovered. We'll need to have copies of the sale arrangements between the dinosaur hunter and the landowner. We'll need to see, ideally when it's an important dinosaur fossil, I like to see videos kind of as the piece in situ, you know, in real time is being discovered. So I know that bones aren't being added. You know, we'll want to have kind of cooperating statements from everyone on the site explaining what's been found. We'll want to send experts to the location or visit ourselves to kind of verify everything as it's being excavated. So all of that is kind of helps to build a picture of where you have complete certainty over when where how and in whose property the fossil was discovered If you kind of rewind 15 20 years ago dinosaur fossils may have been exchanging hands where you might just have a signed statement from someone saying I found this on my property at you know 15 Oak Hill Road or whatever But, you know, as the numbers have increased and also kind of just a bit of background, we're an ancient art or antiquities gallery and we deal in Islamic art. And we entered the dinosaur fossil market effectively trying to use the, you know, the due diligence rules in those categories and apply them to the dinosaur fossil market. So my original background is in my kind of my family's background, our antiquities dealers, where we when we buy an artwork or a Roman marble, we need to be clear about its provenance. How did it enter the market? What proof is that it legally left its country of origin? And unless we're able to show that conclusively with proof, then a buyer or a museum doesn't really have the ultimate security that the piece is legally on the market. So we developed our own internal ways of kind of really a kind of checklist for a for a specimen to make us feel comfortable that it's legal and it's on the sale on the market legally with no kind of issues relating to its title. Does that kind of build a picture of? [15:00] you need to buy a dinosaur bushel. Absolutely. options, from on-trend apparel and premium drinkware to tech, totes, and giveaways, so you can find the right fit for any audience, purpose, or budget. You can customize it all, your logo, your message, your look, and many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point, so you can make a real impact while staying on budget. Plus, you'll get expert help, fast turnaround times, and their 360 degree guarantee. So you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right. Whatever your goal, 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match. Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint 4imprint 4certain Support for the show comes from public If you actively involved in your portfolio you probably catch yourself repeating the same actions Buying the dip, manually sweeping idle cash, putting on a hedge. On public, you can now create AI agents that handle all these tasks on your behalf. Just describe what you want to do in plain English. Like, if the VIX hits 25, buy a put option on the S&P 500. or if my cash balance goes above $20,000, move the excess into my direct index. You approve the workflow and your agent handles the rest. Monitoring the market, watching for your conditions, and executing your strategies exactly as defined. An investing platform driven by your intent, not just your clicks. You can also get full read and write access to your account via the public API. Go to public.com slash market and fund your account in five minutes or less. That's public.com slash market. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Let talk about healthcare for a second It doesn always work the way people expect it to If you ever waited on a prescription refill or had a hard time getting the care you needed you know the feeling The system should just work better for everyone That's exactly what the people at Optum are trying to do every day. They're a health care company linking patient care and pharmacy services and using data and technology to drive the whole system so care is connected, not complicated, for patients and providers. things like making it easier to get care that looks at the whole person from primary care doctors to mental health support and even in-home care and then using technology to make sure they all work together technology designed to help doctors spend less time on busy work and more time with their patients and those prescriptions optum is working to bring costs down save patients money and make it easier to get refills Little by little, Optum is helping make healthcare work as one for everyone. Head to business.optum.com to see how. Do you do third-party testing at all, like thermolumescence testing for age verification and things like that? Or do you not really need it once you have all the provenance evidence to back it up? Case dependent. But what we really want to do is we try wherever possible to arrange independent third consultants or paleontologists or specialists to look at the specimen before we offer it for sale And ideally a paleontologist who specializes in that particular species. So for example, we recently sold a Jurassic skeleton, which was 150 million years old, and we reached out to the best person in that category and said, could you just review the images? What does this look like to you? And what we also do is arrange conservators to kind of, well from the art background to come and check that the bones that we are assembling are reflected accurately on a bone map and that's something else that I think we'll probably get into is you know how do you know what you're buying because dinosaur fossils aren't discovered completely intact they're virtually never discovered completely intact they are assembled from what is discovered and then that's mixed in with resin parts or 3d printed bones to complete the specimen etc and so anybody buying a dinosaur fossil needs to know what they're buying and that's something you know again the market is developing over the past 15-20 years because it used to be that well actually it still is today that if you walk into a fossil shop and you say well how much of what I'm buying is real bone and how much of it is fake bone they'll show you a kind of a color book a drawing of all the bones [20:00] And if an element of that bone is present, they'll say, oh, yeah, we have the fibula, we have the vertebrae, we have whatever it is, we have this claw. And actually, it can be very misleading because you might actually have 5% of that particular bone. And as a result, an item that looks very complete on a bone map is actually incredibly incomplete. so not only do we we kind of insist on having paleontologist specialists check that you know this is the specimen we're describing it's being attributed correctly but also we'll have conservators actually draw up a bone map which as a gallery we've designed to show what percentage of each bone is there and that's one of the kind of issues with the dinosaur fossil market is that you know, somebody could very easily snap a bone in half and kind of double its quote unquote completeness in that bone map kind of process. And so when we when you asked your first question was, you know, how does this compare or contrast with other areas of the art market? There isn't the same depth of kind of art consultants, advisory firms, etc, that are increasing the pressure on vendors to try to keep all kind of for example art fairs you know if you are a art gallery and you want to exhibit at the best art fairs in the world there are certain vetting requirements you need to fulfill And so the dinosaur market doesn have that same level of scrutiny for now As the numbers are increasing and there are kind of way more private collectors interested in acquiring and building private collections of dinosaur fossils and also new museums being formed around the world, The market as a result is kind of developing new systems to be more transparent and also to better present completeness. Already very fascinating. Just a real quick question on North American dinosaurs. You mentioned that a lot of the excavation or hunting work happens in Wyoming, North Dakota, etc. Is that because geographically we have reason to believe that there was a high density of fossils there? or is it because there's a lot of land? Like if there's a dinosaur under New York City, no one's looking for it. You can't dig it up. Is it just because there's a lot of land there that is diggable that's not being used for anything else? I think it's all of the above. Ideally, there are climates that make it easier to dig in. Like for example, you can't dig when it's snowing. When it too hot it becomes quite difficult also And you need that kind of churn of weather that kind of mixes up the earth and makes it easier It all of the above So the other thing I very curious about in all of this is the pricing of fossils because as you say in many ways it a new market for some very very old things But if someone discovers a skeleton, and I take your point that you rarely discover a full skeleton, but let's say you discover something that's kind of unusual in that world. how do you even go about benchmarking it to an actual price that you can sell it for it's a great question so when my my dad for example when we're discussing antiquities or islamic art and we buy we acquire a new piece we'll immediately sit down and my dad will say this is exactly like the one that appeared in 98 at auction this is exactly like the one that appears in this catalog in 72 and i saw one in paris you know and that doesn't exist and and the issue with the dinosaur fossil market is that the prices and I'll give you kind of concrete examples is so all over the place because take for instance which was kind of a watershed moment in the dinosaur fossil market which was the sale of stand it was a super complete high profile widely published iconic t skeleton acquired by the Abu Dhabi Natural History Museum in 2020 or 2021 at Christie That made million The record for a dinosaur at auction prior to that was million in the early 2000s which was Sioux, which was acquired by a consortium of companies and is now on permanent display in Chicago. So, and probably after Sioux, there was very few things that actually made $8 million up until Stan. And after Stan, the prices exploded. And Christie's and Sotheby's started recurringly consigning major dinosaur fossils for sale. And actually, there was no logic to why they were so cheap prior to that sale. You know, a lot of it was to do with a lack of visibility that people didn't know you could acquire dinosaur fossils. And what happened with our gallery specifically was we were the first commercial art gallery to actually start exhibiting dinosaur fossils as an art form at an art fair. So we acquired our dinosaur fossils, we applied art market due diligence to the acquisition, art market kind of condition reporting to the condition and the preservation, created bespoke art market minimalist stands for the pieces, and then showed them at art fairs. And a lot of people would come up to us and say, I did not know you could buy a T-Rex, I did not know you could buy a triceratops skull. And the auction house was... [25:00] did was kind of pump these items into into the news and into auctions and then a whole generation of tech bros and private collectors kind of descended on the market with advisors and kind of that contributed to the explosion in prices so to give you an example specifically you know there was a complete triceratops scale that skeleton that sold around 2022 2023 don't quote me on the exact date, but Big John in Paris, which made kind of circa $8 million. The prior record for a triterotops skeleton was, I mean, I don't know of any that made more than a million at public auction. I know that Christie's had one that went unsold for half a million dollars 10 plus years earlier. So the price jumps have been extraordinary. And there are many other examples like that, where, you know, since Stan, we've had, you know, Hector, we had a Raptor that made kind of 12, 13 million pounds. We've had the Apex, which was bought by Ken Griffin, made 45 million. We had the last Sotheby's specimen made 37 million. And these are all numbers which are unheard of in the dinosaur fossil market So and the issue is that a lot of these specimens are being either consigned by kind of primary dinosaur hunters or landowners to auction And then once they kind of made this sale it very difficult for them to then sell something at the prior prices you know five 10 years prior So, yeah, that's kind of gives you a bit of context about the complete change in pricing structure in this industry. So I take it that finding a complete skeleton is rare. Is there a lot of transaction activity and just like, you know, here's a femur, here's a foot, here's a here's a nose? You sound so unimpressed. I'd be so excited about a dinosaur femur. Yeah, sure, I would too. But like, are there a lot of transaction or do you like, let's say you have part of a skull, like, do you wait and it's like, maybe we can find some more and like build something. And also, is there like, is it legitimate in your space to create an assemblage? It's like we have a complete X, but it's from five different dinosaurs, but it is all dinosaur bones. We put them together. Like, is there anything going on like that? so yeah yeah all good questions i mean we so as a gallery our business model is to deal in very few but you know the very best and not to sell sell composites and to sell fragments but only when they kind of I think aesthetic or beautiful or kind of historically interesting But there are loads of sellers for the cheaper part, cheaper kind of smaller bones, and that's a huge market. You can go to mineral shows and you can buy teeth in the hundreds of dollars. You can also buy very much cheaper if you buy non-american dinosaur fossils and there are there are dealers that will sell composites and everybody will take a kind of commercial decision on whether to assemble something or sell it as a fragment i prefer where possible to kind of not over restore so that you don't look at something and say i have a you know something which in bone mass or sorry in mass is kind of 20 original 80 resin i'd rather show a fragment but yeah look i can tell I personally have a triceratops horn at home. I have a couple of T-Rex teeth at home. So I think they're cool. Because I'm looking at your website. Yeah. There's a T-Rex or possibly Gorgoceros. I never heard of that dinosaur. Gorgoceros, yeah. Tooth for sale for 8,500 pounds. Yeah. Seems affordable. Well you get a discount as well Next time we in London Joe It a nice big tooth It looks nice Maybe I get it Yeah not sure which of the two it is so we kind of cautious Yeah Whether you planning a big tech event launching a new campaign or just stocking up on team gear finding the right promotional products makes all the difference 4imprint offers thousands of options, from on-trend apparel and premium drinkware to tech, totes, and giveaways, so you can find the right fit for any audience, purpose, or budget. You can customize it all, your logo, your message, your look, and many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point, so you can make a real impact while staying on budget. Plus, you'll get expert help, fast turnaround times, and their 360-degree guarantee. So you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right. Whatever your goal, 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match. Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint.com. 4imprint. 4certain. [30:00] from public.com. If you're actively involved in your portfolio, you probably catch yourself repeating the same actions, buying the dip, manually sweeping idle cash, putting on a hedge. On public, you can now create AI agents that handle all these tasks on your behalf. Just describe what you want to do in plain English. Like if the VIX hits 25, buy a put option on the S&P 500. Or if my cash balance goes above $20,000, move the excess into my direct index. You approve the workflow and your agent handles the rest. Monitoring the market, watching for your conditions, and executing your strategies exactly as defined. An investing platform driven by your intent, not just your clicks. You can also get full read and write access to your account via the public API. Go to public.com slash market and fund your account in five minutes or less. That's public.com slash market. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Let talk about health care for a second It doesn always work the way people expect it to If you ever waited on a prescription refill or had a hard time getting the care you needed you know the feeling The system should just work better for everyone That's exactly what the people at Optum are trying to do every day. They're a health care company linking patient care and pharmacy services and using data and technology to drive the whole system. So care is connected, not complicated for patients and providers. Things like making it easier to get care that looks at the whole person, from primary care doctors to mental health support and even in-home care, and then using technology to make sure they all work together. Technology designed to help doctors spend less time on busy work and more time with their patients. And those prescriptions? Optum is working to bring costs down, save patients money, and make it easier to get refills. Little by little, Optum is helping make healthcare work as one for everyone. Head to business.optum.com to see how. things unless they know for certain that they been assembled correctly They are original to the piece and, you know, you aren't taking composites. But in recent years, because the market has kind of had so much demand, there are people who have acquired pieces that maybe should not have done or paid prices they shouldn't have done. But that's something I expect to decrease with time because of the increased scrutiny that is, you know, should be coming into these fossils as a result of kind of the higher numbers. Yeah. And then the other thing to say is that it's very competitive. Like if you want to buy a great dinosaur fossil today, you can't just, you know, go down a promenade of galleries and, you know, you can walk in and say, oh, I'd like to buy a T-Rex. Could you show me what's, you know, behind the curtain? That doesn't exist. I mean, if you want to buy an amazing dinosaur fossil, you know, you're looking at having to kind of pre-buy it, pre-acquire it prior to prepping. So what we do with clients, for example, is a client recently I sold an amazing complete skeleton. It's either a Marsosaurus or it's a completely unknown new species to a private collector who wanted to have it go on public display. So it being loaned to the Colchester Museum in the UK and it kind of something that this private collector wants to be studied and he wants it to be kind of made available to science And I don know if his plan at some point will be to donate it or to what his plans is but he a very kind of philanthropic person But in that scenario what we had to do was I met the client years ago. We agreed on the strategy, which was to buy an amazing complete skeleton. Then I consistently sent the client kind of propositions of specimens as they were being discovered. And I said, listen, this has just been found. This is what's been found so far. This is how much the price is to the landowner. This is how much I envision it will cost to prep. You need to pre-buy this if you want this specimen, because by the time this is acquired and prepped and complete, I mean, we're competing against the kind of sovereign wealth fund or kind of petrodollar estates. It's just much more difficult. Sotheby's, Christie's, we'll never be able to get a price. and it might not be able to acquire it. So that's what people have to do to buy really great dinosaur fossils. Usually it's unusual for someone to be able to kind of walk in and buy something amazing at a kind of reasonable price. Actually, that reminds me, but who's the archetypal buyer for these things? And has that shifted over time as the market becomes more prominent, I guess? It has. So [35:00] As you could probably guess, it's very tech science heavy. So we have clients of all ages. But what's interesting is the dinosaur fossil clients are much younger than kind of the antiquities or Islamic art clients in general. It's a younger demographic and also, you know, really skewed towards tech and science. It's a lot of people that grew up with Jurassic Park that find it amazing. Yeah. I would also add that our gallery is very museum centric. So we try where possible to work with museums. So often, for example, where we can and we always have, we give museums first rights on whatever we find. We consult museum scholars and curators. And also we've had where possible. Actually, what we're doing in the dinosaur space is we are introducing private collectors to museums and we are helping museums acquire specimens by kind of, you know, well, finding the private donors to acquire the specimens for the museums. And we had one of the ones because I know that you guys are going to touch on science and whether or not the private market kind of takes away from science and research Yeah So just to kind of jump into that question It exactly where I was going to go next so yeah i imagined uh so obviously it very sad in some instances where as a result of the private trade specimens are not available to museums or they might be lost to science but as as a kind of commercial dealer i do believe that on the balance the public is better off for the private because of the private trade as a result of kind of so many dinosaurs would not ordinarily be discovered if it were not for the private trade. And also we have, we try where possible. And of course, no one is perfect. We have managed to make privately discovered dinosaur fossils to be able to find their way to museums as a result of private buyers. So last year we had a high profile sale of a completely new species, which we acquired. We showed to the Natural History Museum in the UK. They loved the specimen. They really wanted it. They said this would be a transformative piece for their collection. And then we placed it on kind of unconditional reserve for them and went out and tried to find a private buyer. And six to nine months later, we found a private collector who agreed to acquire it for the museum and also make funds available for research So that an instance where because of the private trade we been able to do something good for kind of the public and for the museums that we work with That makes a ton of sense of course, the fact that if there's a lot of money in the space, then you elicit more discovery and then it's good for science, etc. Those agreements where it's like, okay, I buy a dinosaur and then I put it in a museum. Is there a time component? Can I ever take it back eventually? Like, okay, I agree to place it for 10 years or two years or something? Or am I expected to sort of permanently give it to the museum to hold? It's case dependent. So there are a lot of museums that will shy away or completely forbid interaction with the private market. And then there are some which are much more willing or excited to do so. And I understand the sensitivities around it, But it each museum is different You know there are many that will just not accept the loan full stop But you have to kind of really try to build trust And you know for example be very upfront with the museum I I arranging this loan not because I want to increase the value of the specimen so it can be sold at auction in three years time And this is how I will make you feel comfortable This is the private buyer His plan is genuinely to donate it And it quite a it quite an interesting opportunity really because as we enter the dinosaur fossil space you know we realize that you know when you visit an art museum you look on the walls and you see kind of lines of art patrons And when you visit the natural history museums, that doesn't really exist because there isn't that same ecosystem for kind of, you know, patron groups of friends or collectors. and that because it's just a it's a it's a recently developing market so hopefully and of course you know like with every market there's the benefits and the disadvantages that the market will kind of cultivate the next generation of patrons that will interact with museums I mean I don't know what Ken Griffin's plan is for Apex but you know he's as soon as he acquired as he acquired it it's on public display in New York and you know I think everyone's kind of enjoying looking at it and visiting the museum. And I would imagine that maybe, you know, that he's thinking in his mind that he's going to donate it or gift it at some point. Would you expect there to be more speculative interest in the market as it develops? Because that's something we're very used to seeing in the art market, right? Someone buys a painting and thinks of it as an investment, not just something nice to hang on their wall. Are we going to start to see the same thing with [40:00] dinosaur bones i think we have seen that people often come to us and say okay would you recommend and i have it with friends friends you know when i meet my school friends they always say come on sal find me a bone and i always say i it's kind of consistent it's a my best friends always i can't believe you've not found me a triceratopscara uh and i always say you you you you can't you can't buy as an investor you have to buy because you love uh you love it you you you're kind of inspired by the history by the you know it's it is it's awe-inspiring to stand in front of a kind of 66 million years old creature that roamed the earth and it's it's jaw-dropping but i don't i don't believe in kind of buying for speculative reasons because there are so many unknowns you know it might be that america the u.s decides to kind of shut the private trade down and suddenly you know you may be one of the few people in the world with a triceratops skull in good condition and suddenly it's worth 100 times what you paid for it. It may be that actually property prices go up and no one has the space for a dinosaur fossil in their home anymore. I mean, there's so many variables. There has been a lot of speculative buying. And you do see that with pieces that have been acquired at auction And then six months later one year later they offered for sale again privately as soon as the auction is finished And that not the behavior of kind of a genuine collector who wants to acquire and live with something for decades. I really don't enjoy working with people who have that. That is their plan. You have to just trust that you do your research and your due diligence and you acquire at the fair market value, especially in this space. It's unreasonable and it should be kind of a massive red flag for someone to sell you something which is kind of under the prices of the current market because it's so competitive. All you can do is kind of acquire at a fair value with an honest description of what you're buying, with an understanding of exactly how good it is, how complete it is. And we can go into, for example, what to look for when acquiring a dinosaur fossil. Like why? What gives it value? Great. Tell us. Wait, can I ask a question before you go into that more generally? Do bones from carnivores seem to have more value than bones from herbivores? Yes. People come to us and say, I want teeth. I want something scary. I want something that I can put in my home. You come around the corner and it gives you the fright of your life. Generally speaking, carnivorous animals, which are kind of meat eater skeletons, T-Rex, Gorgosaurus, Allosaurus juvenile T juvenile Allosaurus et cetera They way more sought after They very competitive I mean you know if i found a t skull in great condition with all the bells and whistles there's a queue of five six people kind of waiting for it ready to acquire it from an email photo to send money in advance waiting for it to come herbivores aren't as popular but then again the iconic herbivores like a triceratops skull is very popular what i hope to happen and this comes to value and where we distinguish ourselves from other dinosaur dealers is that I would hope that people kind of increasingly look at actually what they're buying you know not just the brand am I buying a t-rex am I buying a triceratops no am I buying something that is colored in on a document a bone map and described as being very complete that's not how I would suggest anybody to deal in dinosaur fossils you need to understand what is the kind of anticipated or the usual condition of that particular type of specimen. So some specimens are usually discovered much more complete than others. So you may buy, for example, I sold a nanosaurus skeleton, which is a small Jurassic skeleton, about a meter and a half, 150 million years old. They usually discovered very incomplete because they very they small the bones are brittle There are very few skulls that have ever been found If you have a nanosaurus skeleton that might have kind of 50 of the bones represented and some of the kind of the feet the claws or the you know there then that amazing But 50% of a larger herbivore with kind of thick, durable bones like a triceratops is actually not as interesting or as exciting. And also, it doesn't matter how many bones are there, but actually what are the key bones? You know, what are you looking for in value or in kind of historical interest? So T-Rex skull. Let's say you buy a T-Rex skull, but all the teeth are not original. You know, that's a pretty crazy thing to do. Or a Triceratops skull, which is iconic because of its, you know, it's the three horned dinosaur. It's got these amazing horns that, you know, descend out of its skull. Well, it doesn't matter how many parts, how much of the frill you have or how much of the kind of lower jaw you have. What you want is you want the, you need those horns to be there. And so what I think will happen over time is that holistically people will look at dinosaur fossils and say, I don't care. It's not about, the branding is important, but it's more about, you know, what am I buying exactly? You know, forgetting how the industry used to work in the past and actually kind of taking a much more measured, slow, [45:00] deeper kind of investigatory kind of analysis as to what's complete and what's not complete, what's interesting and what's not complete. Sorry that I give you very long answers to each of your questions. No, no, there's so much information that it's totally fine. I actually want to go back to something you said, because when you think about market structure, you did say one thing that sort of feels familiar, perhaps, which is that you could get a better shot at acquiring something at a good price if you buy it a little bit earlier in the process. That by the time the dinosaur has been completely excavated and documented and assembled, etc., it's going to go to some rich collector in the Gulf or something like that. Talk to us a little bit more, some of these collectors or people who are waiting for that T-Rex skull or whatever, how early can they, if they're so inclined, get in on the process? Can they front money towards a paleontologist who has a good reason to think there might be something there Can they buy a stake of an excavation project period like for the active collector Venture capital for velociraptors Essentially yeah that yeah that right vc and some sort like buy a stake in the expedition yes they do i don't think a private collector should do that okay i guess if you can and you have the money and it's fun and it's kind of exciting fair enough but but i don't recommend someone to do it that way how come very high risk you may end up acquiring or finding a dinosaur skeleton that you actually you don't have the space for or you don't want or is not what you ideally wanted you know very hard to manage uh you know if you're if you're sitting in new york or you're sitting in london you need to trust that the team that you are working with i mean when they find a bone how do you know they're not putting it in their pocket you know how how do you know you're uh i mean we're talking about really remote places where you you have no idea you know i had a you know there are also all types of things like there are situations where you know you you acquire something and the seller holds back a couple of bones and then six months later you get a phone call saying by the way I did find a couple other bones that you would really want to buy now now and I'm going to extort you for the yeah that happened too many times to me so yeah I think I as a dealer I feel like I aged disproportionately to my age but but you you need to kind of work with a small number of people you trust and try wherever possible because life is short to kind of delegate the headache and the stress and the risk, in my opinion. Is anyone working on bringing dinosaurs back to life? This would be the ultimate risk for the asset class. Now we have new supplies of dinosaur bones. Well, I mean, I know that's sort of fantastical, right, because of Jurassic Park, you know, Maybe we're going to find a little bit of DNA and some amber somewhere. But it's not like – wasn't there something – they brought a wolf. There was some cover of a magazine recently, and they said, oh, this wolf that had gone extinct, we actually brought it back somehow. Isn't there some work being done on science and reviving extinct species? I think there are the obvious ethical issues of it. I mean, you know, once you open Pandora's box and you start kind of bringing back to life, you know, where does it end? People are always talking about it. I even think Elon Musk did a post recently about Jurassic Park. I mean, so I'm sure it will happen in our lifetime. Whether it will be good or not, I don't know. Well, you're sure it will happen in our lifetime? Definitely. Don you think with the kind of advent of AI and aren we going to be surrounded by dinosaurs in 20 years time The Bloomberg office headquarters is is going to have triceratops roaming it Oh this is a I mean this is a big call Yeah this is a big call I wasn't expecting – Particularly from an antiquities dealer. Someone who's a pro is like, oh, yeah, this is definitely – I'm just joking. I'm just joking. If I had to bed – You don't see it. I bet they're not going to reappear, but, you know. Okay. But I'm just joking. I'm certain they would not be as plentiful as to be in the Bloomberg office in our lifetimes. I'm sure of that, at least. You know, when you ask a little kid what they want to be, they either want to be like, you know, a popular thing to be a paleontologist. And I can't imagine by and large, there's a lot of paleontology jobs. But given the trends, would you say this is becoming a more plausible career option if there's more money in the space and then more economic reason to find dinosaurs? Could this be that maybe more kids get to live out their dreams of being a paleontologist? 100%. If you imagine a lot of these private collectors will set up private museums and I would go one step further. You know, that's exactly that underscores the interest in dinosaur fossils because and this is why we kind of pivoted to this this market, because if you type into Google Modigliani or Jeff Koons and you look at the search results, the number of. [50:00] people who search have searched for jeff coons or whatever it's totally eclipsed by the searches for a triceratops or a t-rex there's universal interest in these dinosaurs and actually whatever we do an art fair we're kind of inundated by children and by people of all ages who come up to us and say isn't that 50 million isn't that 100 million i said no it's it's actually half a million or oh no it's a it's 55 000 pounds or it's eight and a half seven thousand uh for a fast sale but you know but but um that's the that's that explains why dinosaurs have kind of exploded in price because people especially children love them and they are much more universally kind of admired than a lot of the modern masters or kind of art market categories that will fall out of favor every five or ten years yeah i agree with you kind of your call on that i'll tell my kids tonight that maybe they should they should go into this thank you so much that was yeah it's fantastic thank you so much pleasure to meet you guys and thank you for the opportunity yeah and we're going to be in london in may so we might actually take you up on the i'd love to see it i'm looking forward and uh yeah please send me a message and come over and i'll show you some cool things great take care all the best joe that was a really fun conversation there is something to that final point from sal this idea that there is a universality of interest in dinosaurs right it feels like everyone if if you have any sort of humanity in you has gone through a dinosaur stage when you were a kid absolutely no and you know this idea that art will go in and out of style and dinosaurs are forever dinosaurs are forever and so probably from the perspective of a collector or a museum and you want to have a lot of interest dinosaurs are the way to go and then just this idea that i do imagine that there is and you know we talked about this a little bit of anxiety about there being private trade and ownership of them. But if the plus side is that it makes excavation more economically viable, and if in many of these instances the dinosaurs do end up in museums for scientists to study regardless, it sounds like a win-win for the most part. It sounds pretty good. I think there are still some environmental issues We probably should have talked about this a little bit but there are still some environmental concerns about large scale digs I know the mammoth bone industry or mammoth tusk can talk industry in Russia has been something of an issue So that could be also something to think about. A mitigating factor. But I do think like crowding in that private capital, I mean, clearly has led to some interesting discoveries already, which Sal was talking about, this idea that they discovered a new species. By the way, I want to go back to the beginning of this conversation. So Sal mentioned a nanosaurus skeleton. Here is a nanosaurus. What does that look like to you? It kind of looks like a chicken. A little bit. Yeah. To me, it looks exactly like a pheasant. Come on. Anandasaurus looks like a pet. This is the same. This is the same thing. Okay, great. You're right. Capitulation. You're right. It's great. This is a good example of a – I wouldn't have made that, but yes, it has those little arms. By the way, one other thing. You were talking about the gold-plated dinosaur skeleton in Miami. Our producer, Carmen, points out that it is not, in fact, a dinosaur skeleton. It's a woolly mammoth skeleton. So your kids have more ammunition now to make fun of you for misidentifying dinosaurs You know the thing is I really thought that was I didn know So what a woolly mammoth That's not a dinosaur. That's just like another animal. No, it's a hairy elephant. A hairy prehistoric elephant. They died. But they were also prehistoric. I think so, yeah. Right. That makes sense. God, I feel like we're going to get emails from a million, maybe not a million, a few paleontologists out there complaining about some of our classifications. classification. So I apologize in advance if I got that wrong. I really am very ignorant about this. If it looks like an old animal, I just assume it's a dinosaur. That's my definition of a dinosaur. A prehistoric mammal, I think, is an accurate way of describing woolly mammoths. Also, look at a pterodactyl. That's a dinosaur. I'm sorry. Well, so I looked this up after you mentioned that because I was very surprised. I did not know this. It's from a category um that is very closely related to dinosaurs so it's the way people make distinctions between like silosaurs and dinosaurs i don't really understand them all those distinctions but uh apparently you know scientists or experts in this have agreed such that and it's from the jurassic period okay whatever it's from the late jurassic it's a dinosaur i have something [55:00] being petrodactyl instead of tetrodactyl. You're not the first, I'm sure. All right. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. Okay. This has been another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at CarmenArmin, Dash O'Bennett at Dashbot, and Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. And for more Odd Lots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash Odd Lots. We have a daily newsletter in all of our episodes. and you can chat about all these topics 24 7 in our discord discord.gg slash oddlots and if you enjoy oddlots if you like it when we talk about the fossil market then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform and remember if you are a bloomberg subscriber you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free all you need to do is find the bloomberg channel on apple podcast and follow the instructions there thanks for listening Whatever your goal trade show giveaways We see you next time Explore more at 4imprint.com. 4imprint. 4certain. Healthcare doesn't always work great. If you've ever waited on a refill or couldn't schedule an appointment, you get it. That's the kind of stuff Optum is changing. They're using data and technology to integrate patient care, pharmacy, and everything else. So healthcare is connected, not complicated. What's that look like? 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