Wallace Warns US Consumer Addiction Enslaves Citizens and Fuels War

华莱士警告：美国消费成瘾奴役公民并助长战争 美国商业资本主义训练公民顺从每一种冲动并惧怕寂静，造成对持续娱乐的成瘾，从而侵蚀民主参与并推动破坏性的外交政策。 在这场内容广泛的对话中，华莱士结合他对美国消费文化的批判，深入探讨了其小说《无尽的玩笑》的核心主题，追溯了错位的崇拜和对即时满足的不懈追求如何滋生深层的精神萎靡。他剖析了成瘾的心理机制、电视和遥控娱乐所引发的焦虑，以及文化中对安静、艰深艺术日益增长的敌意。转向文学时，华莱士将严肃阅读描述为一种罕见的、具有变革性的媒介，它使个体能够跨越自我的高墙并栖居于另一个人的心灵。最后，他反思了“9·11”后的地缘政治焦虑，并警告称，现代社会中真正的反叛并非场面宏大或具有电影感，而是安静、孤寂的实践，如自律的反思、减少消费和智力上的努力。 戴维·福斯特·华莱士指出，现代消费资本主义是持续自我满足的引擎，并认为将满足冲动视为人生的首要目标会导致对宁静与孤独产生本能的恐惧。 (29:54) 在现代市场逻辑下，成瘾充当了错位的宗教崇拜，它由一种灾难性的心理转变所催化，即个体将自己想要的东西误认为自己需要的东西。 (38:10) 文学拥有独特的时空魔力，让读者能够跃过自我的藩篱去栖居于另一种意识之中，提供了一种扁平的广播媒体无法实现的亲密共鸣。 (50:02) 在“9·11”后的格局中，华莱士深表担忧，认为国内的安逸和未被化解的恐惧正在驱动侵略性的外交政策与极度个人主义的消费，而非集体团结。 (75:58)

In a 2003 interview, author David Foster Wallace argues that American consumer culture promotes an ambient ideology of immediate self-gratification that traps individuals in spiritual emptiness, civic apathy, and existential loneliness. He contends that demanding literature and quiet, solitary reflection offer vital, if unglamorous, alternatives to commercialized mass distraction. Irony, Self-Gratification, and the Logic of Addiction (1:16) Wallace identifies a deep ambiguity in contemporary American irony and dark humor, observing that commercialized irony often functions as performative rebellion that merely reconciles people to the status quo—an effect he likens to "the song of a bird that has come to love its cage." He traces this cultural trap to a displaced religious impulse, asserting that humans are wired to worship and that culture's focus on personal happiness leads people to surrender their agency to false gods such as narcotics, constant entertainment, or competitive individual achievement. Invoking the Latin root addicere, Wallace defines addiction as a logical extension of corporate capitalist ideology: the transactional attempt to purchase a specific feeling for a predetermined duration. However, this dynamic inevitably erodes control, driving a critical shift from "I want" to "I feel I need." Wallace argues that the cultural mandate to obey every personal impulse operates not as genuine autonomy, but as a subtle form of slavery. Civic Erosion, Privilege, and Post-9/11 Geopolitics (20:48) The broader social consequence of an entertainment-obsessed culture, Wallace notes, is the degradation of citizenship. Democratic participation requires the tedious, unentertaining work of studying history and evaluating candidates through reading; when voters reject this effort in favor of broadcast television advertisements, elections default to the best-funded candidates, deepening public cynicism and disengagement. Wallace also critiques the educated upper-middle class, noting that students receive elite liberal arts educations focused on humanistic values only to be funneled into commercial roles writing advertising copy or litigating corporate disputes. Addressing the geopolitical climate following the September 11 attacks, Wallace expresses fear over the American domestic response. Rather than reflecting on global hostility or the geopolitical consequences of cheap domestic gasoline, the culture retreated into individualistic self-protection—such as purchasing tank-like SUVs—and supported aggressive military actions abroad. Wallace observes that decades of unbroken material comfort left the American public ill-equipped to value anything beyond their own ease, admitting that he finds himself more frightened of American domestic reactions than of foreign adversaries. Confrontational Literature Versus Mass Entertainment (50:02) Wallace argues that genuine literature addresses the core human predicament of existential isolation, providing a rare mechanism for readers to breach the boundaries of the self and inhabit another mind. Unlike commercial television, which he considers an inherently lonely medium designed around superficial visual appeal, demanding writing requires active participation and cognitive effort. Wallace divides artistic production between escapist diversions and confrontational works that seek to "comfort the disturbed and to disturb the comfortable," though he acknowledges that challenging literature commands an isolated audience of perhaps 500,000 to one million readers in the United States. Because corporate mass media requires enormous audiences to remain profitable, it inevitably caters to the lowest common denominators of human instinct: spectacle, crude humor, and physical attractiveness. Wallace insists that meaningful rebellion against this sensory overstimulation is inherently solitary and uncinematic. It involves resisting excessive consumption, enduring silence without panic, and dedicating hours to solitary reading and reflection. Wallace acknowledges that authors of demanding fiction occupy a marginal cultural position akin to contemporary classical music, with little direct influence over mass commercial media. While he remains skeptical of broad political corrections and fears escalating consumer insularity, he views technological niche fragmentation and private, disciplined acts of reading and quiet thought as the primary means to resist cultural passivity.

作家大卫·福斯特·华莱士（David Foster Wallace）在2003年的访谈中指出，当代美国将物质繁荣与即时自我满足推向极致，却导致了严重的精神空虚、成瘾机制与公民责任的瓦解；他主张真正的严肃文学和个体层面的沉静反思，是抵御商业娱乐麻醉、克服人类存在性孤独的重要途径。 消费资本主义与成瘾心理：从欲求到必需 (5:23) 华莱士探讨了《无尽的玩笑》（Infinite Jest）背后的创作动因，指出20世纪90年代初美国中产阶级上层在物质极大丰富的同时，普遍承受着强烈的内在空虚，身边同龄人的自杀更促使他反思这种文化危机。他将成瘾追溯至拉丁语词根“addicere”所代表的宗教性献身，认为人类天生具备崇拜冲动；当大众传媒与商业文化将个人利益与即时享乐奉为唯一信条时，人们必然会向赝品神明臣服，如毒品、即时娱乐或极端的竞技训练。 华莱士指出，企业资本主义逻辑通过承诺“只要支付现金就能在特定时长内获得预期的良好感受”，操纵了消费者的控制欲，但这种机制的致命转变在于将自主的“我想要”异化为无法自控的“我需要”，使顺从欲望最终沦为一种新型的精神奴役。 讽刺的双重性、静默的恐慌与娱乐霸权 (1:16) 谈及讽刺（irony）在当代文化中的演变，华莱士援引比喻将其形容为“爱上自身鸟笼的鸟之歌声”，指出它往往在表面上维持抗议姿态，实际上却成为一种安抚剂，让受众在犬儒与调侃中默认既有秩序。这种逃避心态在现代媒体技术中被急剧放大。华莱士坦言自己不敢在家里放置电视机，因为手持遥控器的发明诱发了一种病态焦虑——使用者总怀疑其他频道有更精彩的内容，导致注意力被无休止地切割。 与此同时，当代公共空间系统性地消除静默，以无所不在的背景声音阻断沉思。华莱士认为，当文化将人生目的狭隘地定义为自我满足和持续运动时，人内心渴望安静与长时间专注的机能便遭到严重剥夺，进而在独处与沉默面前诱发出强烈的躯体性恐慌。 克服存在性孤独：严肃文学的心智联通 (50:02) 华莱士强调严肃文学的核心价值在于打破人类在肉体与意识层面的终极隔离。他认为影像与音乐往往单向主导受众的时间节奏，而阅读虽然同样依循时间展开，却赋予读者暂停、重读并自由漫游的内在能动性。当读者在一本文学作品中发现作者或角色精准表达了自己私下恐惧、羞耻或难以启齿的念头时，便能跨越自我的围墙，与另一个心智产生深刻的共鸣，从而确证自己并不孤单。 华莱士承认，直面这类经验往往是不适的，正如文学的使命不仅是安慰受挫者，更在于扰动安逸者。面对严肃阅读群体在美国仅约50万至100万人的边缘现实，华莱士指出，需要智力投入的高难度艺术虽无法与商业畅销书的受众规模竞争，但读者与作者之间建立在平等智力理解之上的深度沟通，具有商业消费不可替代的内在价值。 公民责任衰退、后9/11恐慌与沉静反叛 (20:48) 在政治与社会层面，华莱士回顾了美国“公民身份”（citizenship）概念的衰败：当选民追求省力与娱乐、拒绝阅读严肃繁琐的政策材料时，政治体系便陷入完全依赖电视广告竞选资金的恶性循环，最终被资本操纵并引发更广泛的公众冷漠。面对“9·11”事件后的社会气候，华莱士表达了强烈的恐惧，观察到美国人在面对外部不安全感时，往往不是进行制度性反思，而是诉诸极端的个体防御机制（如购买高油耗SUV）以及对外部敌人的简单妖魔化。 华莱士直言，面对将大众娱乐拉向最低共同本能的巨额资本体系，有效的反叛不可能依赖戏剧性的银幕奇观，而必须是“极其安静而个人的”——包括关掉电视、抵制过度消费、在选举前独立花数小时研究候选人，以及在椅子上安静思考个人生活方式与全球地缘政治之间的深刻关联。 华莱士在访谈中坦承了自己的矛盾处境：作为一名极度依赖控制的作家，他既警惕传媒包装对严肃思考的扁平化，又不得不为了出版合约与出版方利益参与镜头前的宣传。他留给读者的未解困境在于，在一个将即时快感制度化、将真诚思考讥讽为老朽说教的成熟商业社会中，个体能否依靠自律、痛苦的严肃艺术体验与细微的沉静反叛，摆脱对虚假满足的依恋，重建对广阔现实与他人生命的关怀。

[80:53] David Foster Wallace: The only way to get ten or twenty million people all interested in the same thing is to pitch your appeal very very low. [38:10] David Foster Wallace: Most of the problems in my life have to do with my confusing what I want and what I need. [41:25] David Foster Wallace: But a model of life in which I have a right to be entertained all the time seems to me not to be a promising one.

[0:00] Interviewer: Do you think that is something that is true? [0:01] That humor can only come out of something sad? [0:14] I know that Wittgenstein believed that [0:18] the most serious and profound [0:24] problems and questions and issues [0:26] could be discussed only in the form of jokes. [0:28] I know in U.S. literature [0:34] there is a tradition from about the 50s and 60s [0:38] called "black humor", [0:40] which is a very kind of sardonic sad type of humor. [0:46] I'm grasping for something interesting to say in response. [0:50] I think probably sometimes it can be [0:53] and sometimes it isn't. [0:55] There are forms of humor that offer [0:57] escapes from pain. [1:00] And there are forms of humor [1:03] that transfigure pain. [1:06] Interviewer: Because in your books ... [1:08] Does that make any sense? [1:09] Interviewer: Yeah. Definitely. [1:11] Now the perspiration starts. Okay. [1:16] You know what would help me? [1:17] Tell me what you think. [1:19] If we do this as a conversation [1:21] it will be easier for me. [1:22] Interviewer: Yeah, sure. And, you know, I wrote my Master's Thesis about [1:25] Thomas Bernhard. [1:28] And Thomas Bernhard has a theory that [1:31] you know, he was very, he had this lung sickness [1:34] so he couldn't breathe all his life. [1:37] His life was very hard for him. [1:39] And also he hated Austria, where he lived. [1:43] And he thought they were all Nazis. [1:45] There was all this Catholic fascism. [1:47] And he was just hating everything, [1:50] but then out of that he developed this really strange sense of humor. [1:54] So his novels are very dark, [1:56] but at the same time, for me, very witty. [2:00] And also this humor comes [2:02] some sort of music and all that. [2:05] And I just wanted to know if you think that is true [2:09] that the kind of sense of humor that you like [2:12] comes out of this bitterness and sadness. [2:22] The answer for myself is I don't know. [2:25] I know that very often, humor is a response [2:29] to things that are difficult. [2:34] In the U.S. there's a strange situation where [2:36] in some respects, humor and irony are [2:43] political responses and they're reductive. [2:46] And in another sense, particularly in [2:49] popular entertainment, irony and a kind of [2:53] dark humor can become a way of - [2:58] It's pretending to protest when it really isn't. [3:02] Someone once called irony the song of a bird [3:04] that has come to love its cage. [3:06] And even though it sings about not liking the cage, it really likes it in there. [3:14] So that it can be both a wake-up call [3:19] and an anesthetic. [3:20] And the difference [3:23] in the U.S. now is [3:25] very tricky and very complicated, it seems to me. [3:28] Interviewer: And what would you think is true for your books? [3:32] For me, they have very serious questions. [3:38] And they are often very sad, but at the same time [3:42] you get the sense of humor in there somehow. [3:54] I'm not often all that aware [3:57] of stuff that's really funny in the book. [3:59] In the American version of "Infinite Jest", [4:02] I set out to write a sad book. [4:05] And when people liked it [4:07] and told me the thing they liked about it [4:09] was that it was so funny, [4:10] it was just very surprising. [4:12] It's the other strange thing about humor. [4:17] I teach school and I teach literature [4:19] and some of what I teach is Kafka. [4:20] And there's a story about Kafka, [4:22] that in some of Kafka's most horrific stories [4:25] his neighbors would complain, [4:28] because he would be laughing so hard late at night, [4:30] as he wrote these stories. [4:31] He found them very very funny [4:32] and there are things in them that are funny, [4:35] but I don't know that many people would understand [4:37] laughing so hard that your neighbors would complain. [4:39] So there's something. [4:41] It's probably difficult to talk [4:44] to a writer about the humor or [4:47] sadness or something in in his or her own work, [4:50] because our sense of it tends to be very different from readers. [4:56] Interviewer: Yeah, but there was one interview you gave, [4:56] Interviewer: Yeah, but there was one interview you gave, [5:00] I forgot which media it was, but [5:03] you said, when you began writing, "Infinite Jest", [5:08] you wanted to write something about sadness. [5:11] So sadness was something that really belonged to this project. [5:17] So, could you describe? [5:23] It was a while ago. [5:29] The easiest way to talk about it would be [5:29] The easiest way to talk about it would be [5:31] that for the upper-middle class [5:35] in the US, particularly younger people, [5:38] things are often, materially, very comfortable. [5:42] And there's also often a great sadness and emptiness. [5:47] And it's difficult to think about [5:51] and difficult to come up with answers in the abstract. [5:57] And I think I had started that book after [6:01] a couple of people, not close friends, [6:04] but people I knew who were my age had [6:07] committed suicide. [6:12] It just became obvious that something was going on. [6:18] And so I know that [6:21] that impulse was part of starting the book. [6:25] The book is so long though, [6:26] it took so long to write, [6:28] that it's almost hard to remember [6:29] the impulses at the beginning, [6:30] because everything sort of changes. [6:33] It's something you live with for years and years, [6:35] rather than something that you just have an idea or a feeling, [6:38] and you just do. [6:39] I think one of the ideas in the book is that there's a particular [6:45] there's a particular ethos in U.S. culture, [6:48] especially in entertainment and marketing culture. [6:52] That very much appeals to people as individuals, [6:55] that you don't have to be devoted or subservient [6:59] to anything else. [7:01] There is no larger good than your own good [7:04] and your own happiness. [7:05] And in the book, as best I can recall, [7:11] Characters who become drug addicts - [7:14] There is a form, that the root in English [7:17] of addict is the Latin, "addicere", [7:19] which means [7:24] which means religious devotion. [7:27] It was an attribute of beginning monks, I think. [7:30] There's an element in the book [7:33] in which various people are [7:38] are living out something that, I think, is true, [7:40] which is that we all worship [7:42] and we all have a religious impulse. [7:46] We can choose to an extent what we worship, [7:50] but the myth that we worship nothing [7:52] and give ourselves away to nothing [7:55] simply sets us up to [7:57] give ourselves away to something different. [8:00] For instance, pleasure or drugs. [8:05] or the idea of having a lot of money [8:07] and being able to buy nice stuff [8:09] or in the tennis academy, [8:12] it's somewhat different. [8:13] It's devotion to an athletic pursuit [8:16] that requires a certain amount of sacrifice and discipline, [8:20] but is nevertheless an individual sport [8:24] and one is trying [8:26] to get ahead as an individual. [8:28] I doubt this makes very much sense, [8:32] but whatever the conditions of hopelessness [8:35] you're talking about, [8:38] at least in "Infinite Jest", [8:40] have to do, I think, [8:44] with an American idea, and not a universal one, [8:47] but one that I think kids get exposed to very early. [8:51] That you are the most important [8:54] and what you want is the most important [8:56] and that your job in life is to [8:58] gratify your own desires. [9:02] That's a little crude to say it that way, [9:04] but in fact it's something of the ideology here. [9:11] And it's certainly the ideology that's perpetrated by [9:15] television and advertising and entertainment [9:19] and the economy thrives on it. [9:21] Interviewer: And what happens when this ideology becomes -- [9:23] Sound Guy: Sorry, sorry. [9:26] Interviewer: Oh, was there ... [9:28] Oh, am I? Oh, god, sorry. [9:30] Sound Guy: I got to switch this battery out. [9:35] Shit, I was halfway lucid for a second there too. [9:38] And it probably didn't come through? [9:40] Sound Guy: No, it was fine. [9:41] I was feeling lucid. [9:42] Sound Guy: I promise, it was fine. [9:43] Sound Guy: Yeah, it went out for just the last question there. Yeah. [9:47] Sound Guy: But it's kind of hard because he moves in and out. [9:50] I move in and out? [9:52] Sound Guy: Oh yeah. [9:53] Interviewer: You know, the thing is the background is not too pretty. [9:56] Interviewer: Of course, and that's why we're not showing -- [9:57] I'm sorry. [9:58] Interviewer and Sound Guy: No, no, no. That's cool. That's okay. [10:00] Sound Guy: Because you're pontificating. [10:02] Oh, thank you. There's a nice word. [10:04] Sound Guy: In a very deep, spiritual way. [10:06] Thank you. [10:07] Sound Guy: Okay? Which is completely screwing me. [10:10] [Laughter from Interviewer and Sound Guy] [10:12] Sound Guy: Okay? That's a king. [10:14] Sound Guy: You are, you're just, I can tell, you're very ... [10:18] Twitchy. [10:19] I'm sorry? [10:20] Sound Guy: You're very reflective. [10:22] Well these are hard questions. [10:24] Particularly when it's about something you did seven years ago. [10:27] Sound Guy: Okay. I just shoot the pictures. [10:29] Yeah. [10:30] I would trade places with you at this moment. [10:32] [Laughter] [10:35] Sound Guy: Any time. [10:37] Interviewer: What do you think? [10:37] Interviewer: What do you think? [10:39] Does this ideology, [10:45] when children are told from the beginning [10:48] everything that counts as your own happiness [10:51] and your own pursuit of satisfaction? [10:55] Well, of course, nobody tells you. [10:59] I mean, mom and dad don't sit you down and say this. [11:02] This is something very subtle [11:09] and is delivered by a great many messages. [11:20] Just conversationally, do you get what I'm talking about? [11:24] I rather doubt that [11:27] European's idea of America is very different from this. [11:35] This is one enormous engine and temple [11:38] of self-gratification and self-advancement. [11:42] And in some ways it works very very well. [11:46] In other ways, it doesn't work all that well, [11:48] because, at least for me, [11:52] it seems as if there are whole other parts of me [11:56] that need to worry about things larger than me [12:01] that don't get nourished in that system. [12:05] Interviewer: And do you think the Europeans know that? [12:09] From the Europeans I've talked to, yeah. [12:14] When I get in arguments with Europeans [12:18] it's that their view of it sort of exaggerated and simplistic. [12:21] It's a very complicated thing [12:24] and full of paradoxes and ironies and all kinds of stuff. [12:29] And the idea that America is [12:32] one great big shopping mall [12:34] and that all anyone wants to do [12:37] is grasp their credit card and run out and buy stuff [12:42] is a stereotype and it's a generalization. [12:45] But as a way to summarize a certain kind of ethos [12:50] in the U.S., it's pretty accurate. [12:53] Particularly after the elections we just had on Tuesday. [12:58] The U.S. is not getting better in this area. [13:00] It seems like it's getting worse. [13:03] Interviewer: I've been coming here every year [13:03] Interviewer: I've been coming here every year [13:07] over the last couple of years [13:10] and it seemed, for me, [13:12] I seemed to see some progress in that. [13:15] This development. [13:17] When you go to a department store, [13:19] people seem more aggressive in trying to sell you stuff. [13:22] Yeah. [13:24] Interviewer: On the other hand, I like it here [13:27] because, I mean, I'm German, it's not that funny too. [13:31] It's not that what? [13:31] Interviewer: Not that funny all the time too. [13:34] Yeah. Yeah. [13:35] Interviewer: And also an intellectual crisis and everything. [13:38] It stands still somehow. [13:40] There are certain paradoxes that go along with being [13:45] a wealthy Western industrial country [13:49] and it just seems that they're probably somewhat common. [13:55] We have our race problems. [13:57] You have the problems of absorbing East Germany [14:02] and dealing with all that stuff. [14:03] I'll stay out of politics. [14:06] It's too upsetting. [14:09] [laughter] [14:10] Interviewer: What's also in this interview I read [14:14] you said you wanted to write something about a generation. [14:19] I mean, you weren't sure [14:22] if you were right about this generation. [14:24] But you somehow had that feeling [14:27] that your generation was in that kind of trouble. [14:32] Well, my memory is, one of the reasons for setting the book in the future [14:32] Well, my memory is, one of the reasons for setting the book in the future [14:39] was that ... [14:41] I'm now 40, so I was born in the early 60s. [14:45] and to an extent, [14:46] I think my generation tends to think of itself as children still [14:52] and as people with parents [14:56] and I remember wanting to do [14:57] something about what would be [14:59] the situation of our children. [15:01] Kind of in the next generation. [15:04] Interviewer: And this child like thing [15:06] also has something. [15:07] There's one story [15:09] in "Interviews with Hideous Men", [15:11] where the oppressed person [15:13] is always talking about [15:16] the woman and the child. [15:17] Is that something that belongs together? [15:19] Or is this ... [15:25] Language like that, [15:27] the wounded inner child, [15:28] the inner pain is part of [15:30] a kind of pop psychological movement [15:33] in the United States that is a sort of [15:37] popular Freudianism that has its own paradox [15:42] which is that the more we are taught [15:46] to list and resent the things of which [15:50] we were deprived as children, [15:52] the more we live in that anger and frustration [15:55] and the more we remain children. [15:57] That's a very simple way of putting it, [15:58] but I think the character in that story [16:01] is sort of a compendium of [16:03] kind of all the worst and most painful features [16:07] of the popular psychology movement in the U.S. [16:11] And I don't know whether there's any analog to that [16:14] in Western Europe or not. [16:16] Interviewer: I think there is, actually. [16:19] And when you said that, [16:24] I find that too, in Europe, that there is [16:26] this reluctance to really grow up [16:30] and to live life on its terms. [16:34] What should this generation, [16:37] which is not able to grow up, do about it? [16:42] Let me insert one thing, [16:42] Let me insert one thing, [16:45] which I'll bet you've noticed from talking to writers, [16:49] is that most of the stuff [16:52] that we think we're writing about in books [16:54] is very difficult to talk about straight out. [16:56] You know, question and answer. [17:00] In some sense, it probably can't be talked about directly, [17:02] and that's why people make up stories about it. [17:04] This is all a big defense, [17:06] because I feel like what I'm saying is so simple and so reductive [17:16] To the extent that I understand it, [17:19] being what you call "grown-up" [17:23] isn't a lot of fun a lot of the time. [17:25] There are things you have to do. [17:28] There are things you want to do, that you can't do for a variety of reasons. [17:35] I think, for young people in America [17:37] there are very mixed messages from the culture. [17:42] There's a streak of moralism in American life [17:42] There's a streak of moralism in American life [17:45] that extols the virtues [17:47] of being grown up and having a family and being a responsible citizen, [17:49] but there's also the sense of [17:54] do what you want, gratify your appetites, [17:58] because when I'm a corporation, [18:00] appealing to the parts of you that are selfish and self-centered [18:05] and want to have fun all the time is the best way to sell you things. Right? [18:14] And the point that emerges from that is ... [18:24] is that it's, I think, one more example of the American ... [18:33] American economic and cultural systems that work very well [18:38] in terms of selling people products [18:41] and keeping the economy thriving, do not work as well [18:45] when it comes to educating children or [18:49] helping us help each other know how to live and be happy. [18:57] If that word means anything. [19:00] Clearly it means something different from whatever I want to do. [19:03] I want to take this cup and throw it right now. I have every right to. I should. [19:08] We see it with children. That's not happiness. [19:11] That feeling of having to obey every impulse [19:14] and gratify every desire. [19:17] It seems to me to be a strange kind of slavery. [19:21] Nobody talks about it as such though. [19:23] It talks about the freedom of choice [19:25] and you have the right to have things [19:29] and spend this much money and you can have this stuff. [19:32] Again, saying it this way, it sounds to me very crude and very simple, [19:37] but that's sort of the way. [19:46] Does this make ... does this make any sense to you? [19:49] Interviewer: Absolutely. And I'm not lying or something. I would tell you. [19:49] Interviewer: Absolutely. And I'm not lying or something. I would tell you. [19:51] But I mean, but you've spent time in the U.S.? Is this something - [19:56] Interviewer: Yes. But I think it's not only a problem in the U.S., [20:00] because everything, you know, that happens here [20:03] is copied by people in Germany and there is always [20:07] this impulse that you only have to do what makes you happy [20:11] and forget about all the others [20:14] and you don't want to be with boring people, people who need you. [20:18] And that's not attractive and all that. [20:21] So it's more or less the same thing, so it makes sense to me of course. [20:23] And it works very well as a system for [20:23] And it works very well as a system for [20:27] running an economy and keeping goods produced and sold. [20:30] It works wonderfully. [20:32] The ways in which it doesn't work [20:34] are much more difficult to talk about. [20:41] Interviewer: So, speaking of that, where doesn't it work? [20:48] Once reduced to talking about general terms, [20:48] Once reduced to talking about general terms, [20:52] like being grown-up [21:00] or a term that's rarely used here anymore. [21:03] And see, now I feel embarrassment, [21:06] because I'm going to sound like my grandfather or something. [21:09] But the word, "citizen," the idea of being a citizen, [21:13] it would be to understand your country's history [21:17] and the things about it that are good and not so good and how the system works [21:22] and taking the trouble to learn about candidates for political office, [21:27] which means often reading stuff which isn't fun. [21:30] Sometimes it's boring. [21:35] But when people don't do that, here's what happens: [21:39] the candidates win who have the most money to buy television advertisements, [21:43] because television advertisements are all most voters know about the candidates, [21:46] therefore we get candidates who are beholden to large donors, [21:52] and become, in some ways, corrupt, which disgusts the voters [21:58] and makes the voters even less interested in politics, [22:00] less willing to read and do the work of citizenship. [22:07] When I was a little boy, [22:09] there was a class called "citizenship". [22:13] Here are certain things about America and America's history. [22:17] Here's why it's important to vote. [22:19] Here's why it's important not to just go in and vote [22:22] for who the best looking candidate is. [22:25] Here's what's really interesting, and I don't know if you can translate this. [22:28] Talking about this now, I feel ashamed, [22:31] because my saying all this sounds to me like an older person saying this, [22:35] like a person lecturing, which in American culture sets me up to be ridiculed. [22:40] It would be very easy to make fun of what I'm saying. [22:43] It would be very easy to make fun of what I'm saying [22:45] and I can hear in my head a voice making fun of this stuff as I'm saying it. [22:49] And this is the kind of paradox, I think, [22:54] of what it is to be a halfway intelligent American right now [23:00] and probably also a Western European. [23:03] There are things we know are right and good [23:06] and would be better for us to do, but constantly it's like, [23:09] yeah, but you know it's so much funnier and nicer to go do something else. [23:14] And who cares? [23:15] And it's all bullshit anyway. [23:17] Sorry. [23:18] Interviewer: No, but it's the same dilemma actually in Germany, [23:18] Interviewer: No, but it's the same dilemma actually in Germany, [23:22] when people are wanting to say something, [23:25] knowing at the same time, it's this intellectual stereotype [23:28] but on the other hand, you kind of forget about it. [23:34] One of the things it causes is tension and unhappiness in people. [23:34] One of the things it causes is tension and unhappiness in people. [23:41] I don't think it's very complicated [23:43] and I don't think I've named the only reason for it. [23:45] The paradox is that that sort of tension and complication [23:49] and conflict in people also makes them very easy to market to. [23:54] Because I can say to you, 'Feeling uneasy? Life feels empty?' [23:59] 'Well, here's something you can buy or something you can go do.' [24:06] The economics term is inelasticity of demand. [24:09] I demand all the time, no matter what the price of it is. [24:13] And it works really well in an economic way. [24:19] Emotionally, spiritually, in terms of citizenship, [24:22] in terms of feeling like a meaningful part, even of this country. [24:26] Forget the world. [24:27] I'm sure the US government's [24:33] arrogance and disdain for the rest of the world is unpleasant, [24:37] but it's also a natural extension of [24:42] certain cultural messages we send ourselves about ourselves [24:46] that work very well in some ways [24:48] and make us very rich and very powerful. [24:50] It's all complicated. [24:53] Interviewer: So we are all somehow addicted to having fun [24:58] and even so-called serious literature ... [25:03] it's that you don't want to make this effort anymore. [25:06] Books who are serious also have to be very entertaining [25:10] and you don't want to be bored. [25:14] I think, twenty, thirty years ago, you can still read a book and [25:19] and it would be this kind of work to do, [25:22] but you wouldn't think, well I have to be entertained all the time. [25:27] So how do we get out of this dilemma? [25:32] Even for intellectuals, it has to be entertaining and not boring. [25:37] I don't know that ... [25:37] I don't know that ... [25:41] I don't know that I'd agree with the last part of what you said. [25:44] There's a real split, it's interesting that you went and interviewed Crichton, [25:47] because there's a real split in U.S. literature [25:54] between commercial literature, novels like Crichton writes, Stephen King, Tom Clancy, [26:02] who are the other big ... Grisham. [26:06] Some of which are really pretty good, [26:11] and they make a great deal of money and there's a whole lot of demand for them. [26:15] And then there is still and I think it's probably like this in... [26:18] well, it's probably not quite ... [26:21] There's probably more demand for serious books in Europe. [26:25] But here there's a small pocket of probably, I don't know, half a million... [26:33] say, a million readers, [26:35] many of whom were from the upper classes [26:38] and have good educations and have been taught the pleasures of hard work in reading [26:43] or music or art and like that. [26:51] I mean, when you're talking me, you're talking to somebody [26:55] who doesn't have very much power in the culture [26:58] and who's not very important except in a fairly small [27:02] I don't know what the analog would be. [27:04] It would be something like maybe contemporary classical music in the US, [27:08] which there are people who enjoy it and listen to it, [27:11] partly because of training and partly because [27:14] they are disposed to be willing to do a certain amount more work reading it. [27:18] But compared to popular music and rock and roll and hip-hop and stuff, [27:22] classical music is nothing. [27:25] I mean, economically or commercially or in terms of how many people have heard of it [27:30] or how much an influence it has on the culture. [27:39] And, for me, personally, I don't know that it's really ever been all that different. [27:45] I think probably American education used to be a little bit better [27:50] and a little bit more difficult [27:52] and children had no choice but to realize that there were certain things [27:55] that were hard and involved a certain amount of drudgery [27:58] that were actually very satisfying at the end of it, [28:01] but for the most part I think in the U.S., people who have been doing [28:05] "serious stuff" which is harder and stranger, [28:09] have always played to a much smaller audience. [28:14] In terms of what can be done about the dilemma... [28:21] First of all, I'm wondering who would care what I think [28:27] and, second, I'm not sure, and, third, what do you think? [28:30] I mean, you live in the same atmosphere I do. [28:33] Interviewer: Yeah, I think it's really a problem, of course. [28:36] In Germany they have this TV literary expert [28:40] and he's called 'The Literary Pope'. [28:43] So he's the Pope of Literature. [28:45] And people think he has a very good view of everything and he really knows, [28:50] when he says, 'The book was good,' the book is good. [28:53] Who is this guy? [28:54] Interviewer: [Laughter] His name is Marcel Reich-Ranicki. [28:57] Maybe you've heard of him? [28:59] Uh uh. [28:59] And he's a very funny guy and he's maybe eight years old something [29:03] And he has always this verdict on the book, [29:06] so the book is shit or ... [29:08] He's part of your show? He's part of ... [29:10] Interviewer: No no no. [29:11] But he is just a figure and at the same time [29:17] He always wants ... what he doesn't want the book to be is boring. [29:21] By no means boring. [29:23] And at the same time he really understands a lot about books [29:26] and he is really a good reader, but by saying all the time, [29:30] 'Well, things are not supposed to be boring' ... [29:33] I mean, I think that's really a mistake [29:36] and it's getting taken for granted [29:39] and I feel sometimes I also have this feeling that I don't want to be bored [29:43] but at that the other side, I see that's not an option. [29:48] I mean, I don't know, you know, it's not right. [29:51] I somehow have this feeling, even if it sounds stupid. [29:55] No. It's ... [29:58] There's a difference though, I think, between being mildly bored [29:58] There's a difference though, I think, between being mildly bored [30:01] but then there's another kind of boredom that I think you're talking about. [30:06] Reading requires sitting alone by yourself in a quiet room [30:10] and I have friends, intelligent friends, who don't like to read, [30:14] because they get - it's not just bored - there's an almost dread [30:19] that comes up, I think, here about having to be alone [30:26] and having to be quiet. [30:27] And you see that when you walk into most public spaces in America. [30:32] It isn't quiet anymore. They pipe music through. [30:35] And the music is easy to make fun of, [30:37] because it's usually horrible music, [30:39] but it seems significant that we don't want things to be quiet ever anymore. [30:45] And to me, I don't know that I could defend it, [30:48] but that seems to me to have something to do with [30:51] when you feel like the purpose of your life is to gratify yourself [30:56] and get things for yourself and go all the time, [31:00] there's this other part of you [31:02] that's the same part that is almost hungry for silence and quiet [31:07] and thinking really hard about the same thing for maybe half an hour [31:11] instead of thirty seconds [31:12] that doesn't get fed at all. [31:18] It makes itself felt in the body and a kind of dread in here. [31:23] I don't know whether that makes a lot of sense, [31:27] but I think it's true that here in the U.S., [31:29] every year the culture gets more and more hostile. [31:34] I don't mean hostile like angry. [31:36] It becomes more and more difficult to ask people to read [31:40] or to look at a piece of art for an hour [31:44] or to listen to a piece of music that's complicated [31:48] and that takes work to understand, [31:50] because - well, there are a lot of reasons - but because, [31:53] particularly now in computer and internet culture, [31:56] everything is so fast. [31:59] And the faster things go, the more we feed that part of ourselves, [32:02] but don't feed the part of ourselves that likes ... that likes quiet. [32:07] That can live in quiet. [32:11] That can live without any kind of stimulation. [32:15] It's an American idiom, "Going to hell in a handbasket". [32:15] It's an American idiom, "Going to hell in a handbasket". [32:17] Things are getting worse and worse and worse. [32:19] When we're saying it, are we just saying exactly [32:22] what people our age said a hundred years ago? [32:25] There's no way ever to know how different we are. [32:28] Things seems different. [32:31] Interviewer: Yeah, you never get this distance to yourself to really know. [32:43] Now I don't know what I wanted to ask anymore. [32:49] So, there was an episode in "Brief Interviews with Hideous Men", [32:54] where it was also about this depressed person -- [32:59] You like talking about this story, don't you? [33:02] Interviewer: Yeah, I do, actually. [33:03] No, it's alright. [33:04] Interviewer: [Laughter] Is that bad? [33:06] No, it's fine. [33:07] Interviewer: And there was something I read that happens to me very often. [33:11] I have a friend and she has multiple sclerosis. [33:15] Yeah. [33:16] Interviewer: And that's a very bad thing for a young woman. [33:19] That's no fun. [33:20] Interviewer: No, definitely. And she calls me [33:22] and as soon as I pick up the phone she instantly begins [33:28] to talk about her sickness and what she takes [33:31] and about going to the hospital. [33:33] Now is this part going to make it on to the interview? [33:36] Are we going to hear this part? [33:37] Interviewer: No. [33:38] No. Okay. That's what I figured. Alright. Keep going. [33:39] [Camera man and interviewer laugh] [33:40] Keep going. [33:41] Interviewer: Everything I say is not going to make it on anyway. [33:43] Fine. Okay. [33:44] Interviewer: Don't worry about that. [33:45] Great. Great... Great great great great. [33:47] [Camera man and Interviewer derisively laugh at David] [33:50] Interviewer: But I thought you wanted to have a conversation? [33:52] Yes. Yes. No, this is fine. I'm just wishing - this is good. [33:55] Camera Man: I mean, they can hear, but it's not making it to the show. [33:58] [Interviewer continues cackling] [33:58] Alright. [34:00] Interviewer: So, so, she calls me, and in the moment I hear her, [34:05] I think, oh shit, okay, okay. [34:07] The next couple of hours are gone, because she's telling me all that stuff. [34:11] And on one hand, I know she has really got to get that out [34:15] and it's somehow my duty, because I like her, to hear that. [34:18] But on the other side, I think of my own free time [34:23] and I thought, well, I was just sitting here and now I have to hear all that stuff. [34:28] And afterwards, when it's over, I think, well, it's good that I ... you know. [34:33] Yeah. [34:34] Imagine though, if she called you up, late at night, [34:37] and talked to you for two hours and it was mostly apologizing for bothering you. [34:41] So that it's just one more layer of frosting, [34:43] which is just something that goes along with kind of a depressive temperament. [34:47] So there's a lot of narcissism in self-hatred. [34:50] Interviewer: Yeah, but what I was thinking is what is so bad about me? [34:55] What's wrong with me? [34:56] That I hear her name and I think, oh shit, again. [35:01] That happened to me. I shouldn't have picked up the phone. [35:04] And that's, you know, that's also part of the problem. [35:06] Because, on the other hand, that is something I have to do. [35:13] Yeah, but it's also. I mean, it's not ... [35:16] Well, no. Now we're in this conversation [35:18] and I'm going to be talking about your specific thing. [35:20] This doesn't get used, right? No, but it's just kind of ... [35:25] I don't think you're a bad person for ... [35:28] I have a friend, who's not sick, [35:31] but lost her mother, sister, father, to cancer, all within three years. [35:35] And then her best friend died of AIDS in San Francisco. [35:38] This woman had the most terrible two or three years [35:42] of anybody I've ever heard of. [35:43] Pretty good friend of mine. [35:45] My heart would sink every time ... [35:47] because it was always painful. [35:50] And she didn't complain about it. [35:52] You know, she was she was doing real good, [35:54] but still I like things to be pleasant. [35:56] I'd rather drink my chocolate milk and read a comic book [35:59] than hear about unpleasant stuff. [36:02] But this ... [36:06] The depressed person lady just has another has another spin on that. [36:11] which is that she's so worried about that feeling you have of dread [36:17] that she's calling, that she's going to try to get in there, [36:20] and hate herself for it before you can [36:22] and there's a great deal more narcissism in her. [36:25] I didn't like her very much. [36:27] Interviewer: Yeah, I have a feeling ... [36:29] It's usually really bad not to like the main character of a story. [36:33] And I haven't done many where I didn't, [36:35] but this one I didn't like. [36:37] So it's just why I smiled. [36:39] Everybody asked me about the story [36:41] and it's like the one I don't want to talk about. But it's fine. [36:44] It's fine. [36:44] Interviewer: No, no. I also found that he didn't like her, [36:47] but nevertheless the story is -- [36:48] But she didn't like herself either. So. [36:51] She would've predicted that I didn't like her. [36:53] Interviewer: Right. [Chuckles uncomfortably] So um. [36:58] So um, do you still, I mean, do you watch TV? [36:58] So um, do you still, I mean, do you watch TV? [37:02] I don't have a TV. [37:04] Because if I have a TV, I will watch it all the time. [37:08] So there's my little confession about how strong I am at resisting stuff. [37:12] I watch TV over at friends houses and stuff sometimes. [37:15] I don't watch as much as I used to. [37:17] Interviewer: Yeah, but in "Infinite Jest", the entertainment is not [37:17] Interviewer: Yeah, but in "Infinite Jest", the entertainment is not [37:22] coming from TV, directly, [37:24] but it's coming from the noise. [37:27] I thought more from those cartridges that you order and get all the time. [37:34] But is the entertainment in "Infinite Jest" like TV as in America today? [37:40] Is it somehow similar? [37:43] I don't know what you mean by TV. [37:43] I don't know what you mean by TV. [37:46] There's network TV and there's cable TV and there's satellite TV [37:50] where we can get 500 channels. [37:53] Then there are movies and various things available on both tape and DVD [37:58] and so the phenomenon of TV, [38:01] the stuff you can look at when looking at a TV [38:04] is probably not all that dissimilar. [38:06] My memory in "Infinite Jest" is that there was some complicated [38:10] setup where they would sometimes broadcast things [38:13] and then sometimes deliver it to you on a cartridge. [38:17] You would have to let me go look. I don't remember very well. [38:20] Interviewer: Yeah, that's right. [38:21] There are things about the book that are probably not [38:24] economically all that realistic. [38:26] Interviewer: Yeah, but, I mean, it's, just, I mean, um, yeah. [38:33] It seemed to me that all the people in the book [38:36] wanted to reach a similar state of mind, [38:40] like something, like amnesia, [38:43] if people were doing drugs and people who are using the entertainment [38:48] and there was one woman who did something to herself [38:54] and she said I didn't want to hurt me, [38:56] but I didn't want to get hurt anymore. [38:59] I just wanted all this stuff to stop. [39:03] Is this a similar something - is this a similar goal [39:07] which people want you to reach about in similar ways? [39:14] Sort of amnesia or self-forgetting? [39:17] Sure, I guess. [39:23] Part of the allure of both drugs and entertainment [39:23] Part of the allure of both drugs and entertainment [39:28] is escape from my problems and my life [39:33] and having to be stuck in here. [39:35] I can pretend I'm James Bond or someone. [39:39] It just seems fine over the short haul. [39:42] As a way of life, it doesn't work all that well though, no? [39:47] Interviewer: No, but in your book - [39:51] I don't ... [39:52] Interviewer: There are a lot of people doing drugs. [39:56] Not have to feel those things anymore. [39:59] Yeah, well, stop me if I'm wrong, but... [40:04] Because again, like I said, you know I did this thing [40:07] like seven years ago. [40:08] Interviewer: You just say what you think about it. [40:09] Um, no. I don't quite get the question, [40:12] because it seems to me the parts of the book that have to do with drugs [40:16] have mostly to do with this halfway house [40:19] where people who have been doing drugs for ten years [40:21] kind of stop and then sort of lose their minds [40:24] because all of a sudden now they are starting to feel some of this stuff. [40:30] So, if you're talking about the more general allure of drugs [40:30] So, if you're talking about the more general allure of drugs [40:34] to the extent that I understand it, [40:36] which is about as specifically as I'm going to talk about it, [40:42] It seems to me to be, [40:44] and this isn't a very original thing to say, [40:46] it's a pretty natural extension of corporate capitalist logic, [40:50] which is, I want to feel exactly the way I want to feel, which is good [40:54] for exactly this long [40:55] and so I will exchange a certain amount of cash for this substance [41:00] And I will do it, but it's all of course a lie, [41:03] because the control gradually goes away [41:05] and it stops being that I want to do it, [41:08] it becomes that I feel I need to do it [41:11] and that shift from, I want something, to, I feel I need it, is a big one. [41:16] Yes? I mean ... [41:19] Most of the problems in my life [41:20] have to do with my confusing what I want and what I need. [41:25] Interviewer: I was just having this very, [41:25] Interviewer: I was just having this very, [41:28] I have to admit, very simplistic notion. [41:33] Interviewer: What we want to reach, [41:36] what most people want to reach is this state of flawlessness, [41:41] not having to think anymore. [41:43] And I just wanted to know if there are several ways [41:48] to reach this state of mind [41:50] and, you know, watching entertainment all the time and ... [41:54] Are you talking about entertainment in general [41:57] or the entertainment in the book? [41:58] Interviewer: In the book and also [42:00] when I turn the TV on here [42:02] it really drives me crazy [42:04] because it's always, I see a little piece, and then it's commercial break, [42:07] and then they show me something [42:09] and then I'm supposed to watch the longer part, [42:12] but I've already seen the longer part, [42:13] so there's no use in doing that. [42:15] So it drives me somehow mad. [42:16] Yeah. [42:17] Interviewer: This all creates this kind of state of [42:19] if I do it every day and so now it may be ... [42:22] Well, particularly if you have a remote control. [42:22] Well, particularly if you have a remote control. [42:25] See, when that happens, you go to a different channel [42:27] and if you don't like that channel, you go to a different channel. [42:29] And one of the reasons I can't own a TV [42:32] is I've started having this thing where I become convinced [42:34] there's something really good on another channel and that I'm missing it. [42:37] And so instead of watching, [42:39] I'm scanning anxiously back and forth for this thing [42:42] that I think I want, that I don't even know what it is. [42:45] And so, I don't know whether German ... [42:47] Well, this is probably not a good thing to say on television, [42:50] but I don't know whether a similar thing happens in Germany, [42:52] but it's very stressful now. [42:54] And what it is, is too much good stuff [42:56] combined with my sick little head [42:58] that thinks there's always something a little better on the next ... [43:02] And all you have to do. [43:03] You don't have to get up now to change it. [43:05] That was the problem, when it became easy. [43:08] You just had to move your thumb and change it. [43:10] That's when we were screwed. [43:14] Interviewer: So do you think it's ... [43:15] Ninety-percent of this is going to be cut out, right? [43:18] Interviewer: Yeah, sure. [43:19] Yes? Okay. [43:20] [Awkward interviewer laughter] [43:21] Interviewer: I mean, not because I like it, [43:21] Interviewer: I mean, not because I like it, [43:23] but because, you know -- [43:24] Because it's not going to make any sense. Yes, right. Right. [43:27] Interviewer: Yeah. So, do you think that entertainment... [43:32] Is entertainment something we have to fight against? [43:38] See, it's a strange question, [43:38] See, it's a strange question, [43:40] because who would say entertainment is bad? [43:43] I mean, I wouldn't say entertainment is bad. [43:48] But a model of life in which [43:54] I have a right to be entertained all the time [43:57] seems to me not to be a promising one. Right? [44:07] And this won't translate, but of course [44:10] one of the insidious about it is that [44:13] entertainment is so god damn entertaining. [44:16] Imagine this show were running on American TV [44:20] and I were sitting in this hotel watching it. [44:22] Okay, we get this pointy-headed nerdy guy talking about this stuff [44:25] or I've got, you know, Pamela Anderson running on a beach [44:29] or hilarious comedy. [44:30] Which one am I going to watch? [44:33] You know, there's no ... [44:37] If fighting against entertainment [44:40] is even required, how does one do it, unless [44:45] Well, there are two options: [44:47] One is you direct the attack [44:49] only to people who are willing to listen to the complexity. [44:52] But those aren't the people who are enslaved by entertainment anyway. [44:55] Or you find some way to make the attack on entertainment entertaining [45:00] in which case you've been captured by the very thing you're fighting against. [45:03] It's very very strange. [45:05] Interviewer: Yeah, that's exactly the dilemma. [45:07] Yes. [45:08] Interviewer: That's exactly it. [45:15] This is different, the topic is different now. [45:20] "Infinite Jest" takes place in a tennis academy [45:25] and you have been, I read, a tennis player. [45:29] A quite good tennis player. [45:32] A somewhat good tennis player, not a quite good ... [45:35] No, I played a lot as a kid. Yes. [45:37] Interviewer: And then you said once, [45:41] 'Well tennis was a little bit like chess and like boxing.' [45:45] I don't know if it's a combination of the two. [45:47] But you somehow related the three together, tennis, boxing, and chess. [45:52] What makes tennis so special? [45:57] Well, if you're asking why it's in the book, [46:00] the reason it's in the book is it's the one sport I knew well enough [46:03] to be able to try to talk about why it was beautiful. [46:07] And it's also a sport that has to do with [46:09] two very bounded spaces [46:11] and sending stuff back and forth between them [46:13] which has other stuff to do with the book. [46:17] I think tennis is a very very beautiful sport, [46:21] because it's very abstract and geometrical [46:25] and tactical like chess. [46:27] And it's also very physical. [46:29] There's a lot of running. [46:31] You get very tired playing. [46:33] I don't know about the boxing thing [46:35] unless that it's just usually one person against another person. [46:38] Interviewer: And chess? [46:42] Well, if you're really interested, [46:46] really good tennis players, like really good chess players, [46:49] are always thinking four or five moves ahead. [46:53] Actually, this was something that ... [46:59] that some of the German players who were superstars in the nineties [47:03] were very good at doing. [47:06] Boris Becker didn't just come up and hit an ace. [47:10] What Boris Becker - and I think he'd learned this from McEnroe - [47:13] was really good at hitting the forcing serve [47:16] that made you hit a weak return that let him come into the net [47:18] and put the next shot away. [47:21] So that everything is being thought of ahead, [47:24] but it's also very combative. [47:27] But if you and I are playing, if I win, you lose. [47:30] I'm trying to beat you very individually. [47:32] I don't feel like this is making any sense at all. [47:33] Interviewer: It does. [47:34] Okay. Okay. [47:35] Interviewer: I'm sorry, but - [47:36] No, no. Okay, fine. [47:39] Well, you can run some sort of editing magic. [47:42] Interviewer: Yeah, sure, but I don't have to. [47:44] But there's also something about - [47:46] It's also combat at a distance. [47:49] In boxing, the two bodies are very close to each other. [47:52] There's something a little colder about tennis, [47:55] which is, I'm trying to beat you, [47:58] but you're 75 feet away from me [48:00] and what's traveling between us is just this small thing. [48:03] There's something more abstract about it [48:04] which is a little bit more like chess. [48:06] Interviewer: And you also said it's more mathematical, right? [48:11] There was ... I think there was ... [48:15] Are you talking about the essay that talks about calculus and tennis? [48:20] Interviewer: No. Maybe I didn't understand it, [48:24] Hal talks - no, was it Mario who talks to this guy? [48:30] His name is Schtitt? [48:32] Schtitt! [48:33] Schtitt? Yeah. I think he says that. [48:36] A German, as I recall. [48:38] Interviewer: Yeah. But that's not a German name, actually. [48:40] No, of course it isn't. [48:41] What it is, is a vaguely Germanic sounding name to Americans. [48:46] Yeah, he's not the subtlest character in there. [48:52] Well, the angles are mathematical. So I don't know. [48:59] Interviewer: So, what is literature able to do that other - [48:59] Interviewer: So, what is literature able to do that other - [49:04] I saw this on the sheet of paper. [49:06] Interviewer: Yeah, because I had to ... [49:08] Good. Good. So let me ask you first, and then I'll ... [49:11] What is it that literature can do that other things can't do? [49:16] It's not so easy, is it? [49:18] Interviewer: No, no. Not at all. [49:20] But I thought that, you know, you're more intelligent than I am. [49:27] Well, actually, I read in this interview [49:32] and you said something, [49:34] That good art somehow is able to not make you feel alone. [49:41] That is something actually that I'm very addicted to. [49:45] Because, simple as I am, I'm very happy [49:51] when I don't feel so lonesome when I read something. [49:56] And also, good literature? [50:00] Literature is something very musical to me. [50:02] I had that with Bernhard very much, [50:05] because the sicker he got in his life, [50:09] the easier the words became. [50:12] And it was like some kind of music. [50:15] So, for me, the beauty of the words and also this musical thing about it, [50:20] and also something philosophical and not feeling alone. [50:25] Why don't - can we just put that in? [50:27] That's a better answer to the question than I could have given. [50:30] Interviewer: No, no. First I had to answer. [50:34] Well, play back the tape of what she said, and I'll just - no. [50:42] It's a heavy question. [50:50] There's something musical about it, [50:53] because it has to do with patterns of meaning that develop over time. [50:59] There's stuff, for me, about reading [51:04] that isn't like looking at a piece of art, [51:07] because, there, I choose how long I look and what I look at. [51:11] I'm being directed through a linear flow of time. [51:13] But in a piece of music or in a movie, that flow is directed for me. [51:17] I've really got no choice, but to follow it. [51:19] Whereas books, it's weird. [51:22] I'm moving through time, through this thing, [51:25] but I can also, I don't know whether you do it or not, [51:27] but if I've read a paragraph I like a lot, I go back and I read it over again. [51:32] So I'm trapped in time, but I've got more mobility within that time. [51:37] And then I think ... [51:42] There's other writers I've talked to about this [51:45] and most of us who end up doing this like to read as kids, [51:48] probably for the same reason you did. [51:53] I'm trying to think of a way to say it [51:56] where it doesn't just sound stupid and simple, [51:58] but it goes without saying that ... [52:02] There are four of us in this room. [52:05] I'm sure we all seem fairly pleasant. [52:09] There are big limits on what we'll ever know [52:13] Like I don't know what's in your mind, right now. [52:15] God knows I don't know what's in his mind right now. [52:18] There's a way for me - [52:20] I'm talking more as a reader - [52:22] that when I'm reading something that's good and that's real [52:26] I'm able to jump over that wall of self [52:33] and inhabit somebody else in a way that I can't. [52:38] You know, that we can't in regular life. [52:42] And when I do inhabit that other person, [52:45] very often what they're thinking or saying or feeling are things very much the way I do, [52:51] but I'm scared there's something wrong with me that I do and nobody else does. [52:54] There's a tremendous reassurance about that kind of [53:00] communion and empathy. [53:03] And then it gets more complicated, [53:05] because I'm also getting access to the mind of the author [53:09] in a way that we don't have access to each other talking this way. [53:17] Most of the friends I've got, [53:19] and most of my friends don't like to read. [53:20] Most of the friends I've got who don't like to read [53:22] find it, A) boring, and B) just kind of lonely and slow. [53:27] And I just don't get it. [53:27] because watching television for me, [53:30] although it's easier, is much lonelier. [53:32] Watching in flat images on a flat screen doing interesting things [53:36] and often they're very easy to look at [53:38] is very different from knowing what it's like to be inside somebody else's skin [53:44] or knowing what it's like to be able to spend two hours with an author [53:48] who somehow can make me feel like I know what it is. [53:51] I mean, it just seems like a form of magic to me. [53:54] Interviewer: And is it also comfort? [53:59] I can't remember which American writer it was ... [54:02] I heard him speaking. [54:04] He said that his job is to comfort the disturbed and to disturb the comfortable. [54:10] And so that, there's something comforting ... [54:15] There's something comforting about being able to inhabit somebody else, [54:18] but there's something also very uncomfortable about it, [54:22] because usually the experiences that person is having [54:25] are just the ones that I don't like [54:28] or that I haven't worked out. [54:30] And it seems to me that the biggest split isn't [54:34] between music and literature or music and sculpture, whatever. [54:38] They're forms of art that offer us escapes from ourselves and our daily lives. [54:42] And I think that's fun in small doses. [54:45] And then there are kinds of art that offer us more confrontation [54:49] with our own lives. [54:52] I don't think it's surprising that there isn't as much demand [54:55] or as much money in the latter, [54:57] because it's more difficult and less pleasant sometimes. [55:01] It takes skill and education to get good enough at reading or listening [55:06] to be able to derive pleasure from it. [55:09] There's class stuff involved here that gets very tricky. [55:15] But I think it's worthwhile. [55:19] I think reading and writing are both worthwhile. [55:21] That's very profound. [55:22] [Laughter] [55:23] I did good for awhile in the middle there. [55:25] That was lucid. [55:28] All I did was parrot back what you said - [55:30] Interviewer: No, you didn't. [55:31] But I took like ten times as long [55:32] And I did this [hand gestures] a lot more. [55:39] Boy, is it hot in here now. [55:40] Interviewer: Yes, it is. [Laughter] [55:42] Camera Man: Oh yeah. [55:46] Interviewer: So we are right into something that I actually have ... [55:51] Do you want me to get you some water or something? [55:53] No, I'm fine. I'll just be sweating here in my chair. [55:56] It's fine. Not a problem. [55:57] Interviewer: The typical American. [55:59] Yes, the sweaty American. [56:00] I'm proud to sweat on behalf of the USA. [56:03] [Laughter] [56:06] Interviewer: So we were just in the middle of a question [56:09] that I put on this paper [56:11] which was somehow faxed. [56:14] And which I received. [56:16] Interviewer: That's good to know. [56:20] The fear of the writer. [56:21] That his work and his persona, somehow, [56:24] made banal, be flattened, and abused, [56:29] as soon as the media - [56:30] I don't recall that. Where's that written down there? [56:33] Interviewer: Here. [56:33] Banal? [56:34] Interviewer: Yeah, I don't know if that's - [56:36] Oh. Okay. [56:37] Interviewer: "Banalized". I think I made this word up? [56:39] How interesting. [56:40] See, mine stopped here. [56:42] Interviewer: Really? [56:42] Yeah. There wasn't any of this stuff. [56:44] Interviewer: Oh my God. [56:44] No, it's fine. [56:51] So, we're talking about the marketing of writing stuff? [56:55] Interviewer: No, but. I mean ... [56:57] The fear of the writer that his work and his persona [57:01] are somehow made into banal, well not only, but, it belongs to promoting. [57:09] The work and his persona are the same thing? [57:12] Interviewer: No, no, no. [57:14] But they're both made ... [57:16] Interviewer: Yeah, but, you know, when you're out there for the media. [57:22] What happens then? [57:24] I see a paradox here. [57:25] I'm going to talk about the difficulties [57:28] of having to deal with the media, [57:30] but I'm talking to the media. [57:32] See, I'll pretend I'm talking to you, [57:34] but when this shows, you're going to have this face, [57:37] sweaty face, [57:38] on camera, talking about how difficult it is, as a writer, to be on camera, [57:43] in which case, if I were the viewer, I would go, [57:46] 'So why is the son of a bitch on camera?' [57:49] So, how do you suggest I handle this? [57:50] Interviewer: Yeah. No. It's a paradox, but at the same time I think it's very ... [57:55] I mean, it's a legitimate fear to have. [58:00] I think about these things all the time. [58:03] I think, well, I like literature, but at the same time, [58:05] why am I doing this? [58:07] And how am I doing this? [58:09] And how can I try to preserve these things? [58:12] So, you know, it's a paradox for me too. [58:17] So, for this reason I think it's something you can think about. [58:22] Sure. [58:24] Well, there are a number of trade-offs. [58:29] In the United States, there's another division between corporate publishers [58:34] and non-profit publishers, [58:36] who are often very small and do a lot of poetry and avant-garde fiction. [58:40] If you are "lucky", [58:44] these are square quotes, [58:45] if you are lucky enough to be published by a corporate publisher, [58:49] you get more exposure, [58:53] you get reviewed in the New York Times instead of just your local newspaper, [58:58] you get translated into other languages. [59:04] But literary stuff loses money for corporate publishers [59:08] almost all the time. [59:09] And one of the ways they try to keep from losing money is marketing this stuff. [59:14] And for reasons that everyone has tried to explain to me, [59:18] but I still don't understand it, [59:20] having the author go around and talk and read - [59:24] The thing they most like to do is send you to a bookstore [59:27] and you give a reading at a bookstore [59:29] and there's maybe 200 people there, [59:31] but, while you're in town to do the reading for the bookstore, [59:34] you talk to the local newspaper and you maybe do something like this. [59:38] And that generates free advertising for the book. [59:48] My problems with it are the following: [59:51] my stuff, I don't feel like, is meant to be read out loud. [59:56] It's not supposed to live on the breath. [59:59] There isn't enough punctuation in it. [60:02] And I don't feel like I read it out loud very well, A). [60:05] And B) , I find ... [60:13] When there's a question and answer, like you and I are having, [60:17] although you and I are having a much more lengthy one, [60:21] but particularly with a newspaper reporter [60:24] or a question-and-answer at the end of a reading, [60:29] the question is easy to answer if it's dull or stupid. [60:32] The good questions are questions that can't be answered [60:36] in a Q-and-A format, right? [60:37] They're ones where you would have to sit down with a pot of tea [60:40] or a pot of coffee. [60:42] There are things that can be answered only in conversation [60:46] between two people. [60:47] And so I always feel vaguely [60:51] fraudulent. [60:54] There's a thing about doing this [60:56] where you're helping me. [60:57] We're pretending we're having a conversation. [60:59] And I'm also pretending that there aren't cameras all over here, [61:03] but in fact this is all on TV, [61:04] and I know that I'm supposed to ignore, [61:06] I'm not supposed to look at the camera, [61:08] because that doesn't make for a good interview. [61:10] But trust me, when I'm sitting here, [61:13] the camera is the thing I really see. [61:15] It's all very strange. [61:16] And so ... [61:18] So why do I do it at all? [61:21] I make a variety of deals. [61:23] And I do a few things. [61:26] I know some writers who like this. [61:30] And there are things about it - it's very flattering. [61:33] You guys came. [61:37] It makes me nervous and it makes me ... [61:41] it makes me self-conscious to try to talk about stuff [61:44] that I find almost impossible to talk about. [61:46] Or else just to go, 'So, how long are you in town?' 'Oh, three days.' [61:56] But I have an agent whom I owe 25,000 favors to. [62:00] He's done all of these nice things for me. [62:02] And it's also exciting for a writer [62:04] to get his work published in another country, so she says. [62:10] This German publisher is really good. [62:15] They're going to publish the book well, [62:17] even though I don't think my English can really be translated into German [62:21] because it's very idiomatic. [62:24] Great advertisement, I'm sure. [62:30] And all they need, [62:31] they need this one thing from you to help them sell enough books [62:36] maybe so that they don't lose money on it. [62:38] It then becomes very difficult to say, no. [62:41] On the other hand, I don't think it's very good, [62:45] I don't think it's good. [62:46] Maybe a show like this? [62:49] There's no analog for this in the U.S., [62:51] but the whole going around and reading in bookstores thing, [62:55] it's turning writers into kind of [62:59] penny-ante or cheap versions of celebrities. [63:03] People aren't usually coming out to hear you read, [63:07] they're coming out to see what you look like [63:09] and see whether your voice matches the voices in their head when they read. [63:12] And none of it's important. [63:14] It's icky. [63:16] I don't know if there's a German translation for "icky". [63:20] In terms of "banal", I don't know. [63:24] "Banal", to me, means, [63:26] general and simplistic and superficial and vapid. [63:34] If you do work like this, you pay certain prices. [63:37] You don't make as much money. [63:38] Not as many people read your stuff. [63:40] But people who are reading it and are interested in it, [63:43] you're pretty sure ... [63:45] The thing that I like about doing this kind of stuff is that I'm pretty sure [63:48] my readers are about as smart as I am. [63:51] I think if you're somebody like Crichton [63:54] or someone who's a Harvard M.D., but you're writing for a mass audience, [63:57] things get very strange. [63:59] I don't worry that people who are reading my stuff are misunderstanding it. [64:05] Or "banalizing" it [64:09] any more than it's already banal. [64:11] I do worry, weirdly, about when it's translated into languages that I don't know. [64:17] I worry that I don't know what's in there. [64:21] There are so many American idioms in there [64:24] that I don't know whether they can be translated or not. [64:27] Interviewer: That's very hard to do, to translate it, actually. [64:31] The people who did it, who translated your work in German, [64:35] are really people who are very much into it, you know. [64:39] I know some of them. [64:42] Oh, no. I mean, that's good to hear. [64:44] And you can understand, I can believe you, [64:45] and still, there's this weird ... [64:47] there's this weird ... [64:49] Because, one of the things about ... [64:51] You're probably like this about your work too. [64:53] The term is, "control-freak". [64:54] You know, I want to control every single word that's on there. [65:00] And so, it's just tough. [65:02] The one language I can read, I read the translation, [65:06] and it was just so different from anything I meant, [65:08] that I've decided that it was just better [65:12] to have it be done in languages I don't know. [65:15] Is that any kind of answer to the question? [65:18] Interviewer: Yeah, sure. Sure. [65:21] One thing that also very much appealed to me [65:21] One thing that also very much appealed to me [65:26] is when you spoke in an interview about existential loneliness. [65:34] I said the word, "existential loneliness"? [65:37] Interviewer: Yeah. Something like that. [65:38] Okay. [65:39] Interviewer: You know, I'm German. Somethings I get things right and wrong. [65:43] No, no, no. Okay ... [65:47] Interviewer: And that's something very much I like to hear an author say, [65:52] because, in the things I read, that's one thing I'm searching for, [65:59] these testimonies of existential loneliness. [66:04] So, is that something you still relate to? Or ... [66:08] Well, yeah. If I understand your question, [66:11] this is the stuff we were talking about two questions ago. [66:14] There's something painful about being stuck in a body and a consciousness [66:18] that can't ever, except through conversation, [66:23] can't ever be inside anybody else's. [66:26] And there is a magic about ... [66:29] Except, see, I don't know that much about music. [66:32] People who do say that there is a purity with which [66:35] the composer's emotional state can be felt by the listener [66:38] that can't be approached by anything else either. [66:40] Probably, most of kinds of art have this magical thing [66:45] of, for a moment, there's a kind of reconciliation and communion [66:50] between you and me that isn't possible in any other way. [66:55] But it's also the sort of thing that's so weighty and so general, [66:59] that, especially after he used the word, "pontificate", I feel ... [67:03] Interviewer: What does it mean? I have never heard it. [67:05] The word, "pontificate"? [67:06] To speak pompously about very complex abstruse matters. [67:12] It's a little bit pejorative. [67:14] But he meant it in a funny way. [67:15] But it's, I mean, it's ... [67:17] This is something else about being an American. [67:20] When I hear the word, "existential", now, [67:23] half of me rolls my eyes, [67:24] 'Oh, what a big sexy philosophical term.' [67:29] And it becomes hard to speak seriously about it, [67:33] because all I can hear is being made fun of [67:37] for how serious and boring and dull I'm being. [67:40] If that makes any sense. [67:41] Good luck editing. [67:42] Camera Man: We're switching tapes. [67:44] You're German accent's much better than mine. [67:47] How surprising. [67:48] Interviewer: Yeah, really. [67:57] Interviewer: In Germany, when I'm talking about my generation, [68:02] people in my profession, [68:06] most of the time they have really good educations, [68:11] and all this. [68:14] There's also the feeling of not being able to do anything with it. [68:21] You have pretty good conditions to start with, [68:24] and then after that you think, well, what's next? [68:28] What am I doing with this? [68:32] Maybe it's not reality, but you have the feeling of not doing anything with your life. [68:40] And what do you think about that? [68:45] I know that there's a paradox in the U.S. of, [68:50] the people who get powerful jobs, [68:54] tend to go to really good schools, [68:57] and often in school you study the liberal arts, [68:59] philosophy, classical stuff, languages. [69:02] And it's all very much about the nobility of the human spirit [69:07] and broadening the mind. [69:08] And from that, you go to a specialized school [69:12] to learn how to sue people [69:15] or to figure out how to write copy that will make people buy a certain kind of SUV. [69:18] And yeah ... [69:31] I don't know what I think about it other than that ... [69:39] I'm not sure really that it's ever been all that different. [69:39] I'm not sure really that it's ever been all that different. [69:47] because very few of us, [69:51] and there are things about my job I don't like, [69:53] but this is one of them that I do like, [69:56] is that I get to use ... [69:59] I get to use pretty much everything I've ever learned or think about. [70:04] It's actually something that goes a long way when I bitch and moan. [70:09] Sometimes it's lonely work [70:10] and sometimes you worry it's not very good. [70:13] I know that there is, at least in America, [70:16] an entire class of, [70:18] and now, I'm talking about a very specific class here, [70:21] I'm talking about upper and upper-middle-class kids [70:25] whose parents could afford to send them to very good schools [70:29] where they got very good educations, [70:31] who are often working in jobs that are financially rewarding, [70:38] but don't have anything to do with what they got persuasively taught [70:43] was important and worthwhile in school. [70:47] And that is - I've never taught about it in those stark terms - [70:51] that's a bit of a paradox, isn't it? [70:53] When you guys talk about it, what do you conclude from it? [70:58] Interviewer: That's the thing, I don't know what to conclude from it. [71:03] I don't know if it's a phenomenon that has to do with a certain generation. [71:11] A friend of yours, your age, who you were in school with, [71:13] who's a business man now, would say that you are better off than he, [71:18] because you're at least getting to use a lot of the stuff that you studied [71:21] in your actual work, right? [71:23] Interviewer: Right. [71:28] You know what? We could talk about it for a long time. [71:31] I don't know that I could say anything about it that would be interesting. [71:36] From an on-camera point of view, [71:39] my suspicion is that this has got something to do with [71:44] with something that was explained by original sin, in Genesis, [71:48] which is that, [71:51] as we get older, we have to do things to get money, to stay alive, [71:55] and there are things about that that often feel very wrong to us. [72:07] It would be very nice if you cut that out, because that just sounds weird. [72:13] I don't know. [72:16] Interviewer: Maybe this alienation is just part of it, you know? [72:19] In your book, in "Infinite Jest", there are also people who, [72:25] they don't want to grow up. [72:28] And they feel alienated from what they started. [72:32] And they say, well, we have done this and that. [72:36] Well, we're not talking a Marxist alienation. [72:39] We're not talking about alienation from the means of production. [72:46] The thing of it is, though, at least in the U.S., this would be my guess, [72:50] I doubt that somebody who went only to high school, [72:55] which is the secondary school, and is working in a factory, [73:01] I doubt he wakes up and goes, [73:03] 'Well, by gosh, at least I don't have all this humanistic learning I'm not using.' [73:07] I don't imagine he's any more satisfied [73:13] or nourished inside by his job either. [73:16] What you and I are part of [73:18] is a class and generation that can be very articulate [73:21] about what our complaints are [73:23] and what we're feeling uneasy about. [73:26] I think if there's something that characterizes our generation, [73:29] is not that we've come up with new problems [73:32] or brilliant new solutions to them, [73:34] but that we're endlessly verbal about it. [73:37] Which is probably a start, at least being able to talk about it. [73:46] Interviewer: Talking about this dilemma, [73:52] wanting to be entertained [73:55] and you just mentioned there was this big thing in America, a couple of days ago, [74:04] and also this movement in a certain direction. [74:07] And you asked me what I thought it was in ten, twenty years from now. [74:11] So what do you think it will be like in a couple of decades from now in America? [74:20] I mean, how will this go on? [74:23] I don't know. [74:24] I don't know. I'm scared. [74:30] I don't know that I could say anything about the last couple years [74:34] that anybody else couldn't say. [74:46] When I was younger, I used to ... [74:46] When I was younger, I used to ... [74:51] There's a way in which we in America are very comfortable. [74:57] And I used to think that some of the political and social answers [75:05] that I thought should be ... [75:10] Some of the political and social corrections that I thought should be brought about [75:15] would happen when there was some sort of cataclysm [75:17] or misfortune, where we weren't as comfortable any more. [75:24] The fact that ... [75:28] that we now have clear evidence that the way we live [75:33] and the relationships we have with various other countries [75:39] are causing some people to hate us so much that they want to kill us, [75:45] and may succeed in killing a great many of us, [75:48] frightens me only because ... [75:58] When I was growing up, [76:00] one of the mythological periods for us growing up is the Great Depression. [76:07] Weimar era. [76:09] Where the story goes, everyone pulled together. [76:12] There were hard times, and no one had enough, [76:15] but everyone pulled together. [76:18] It seems to me now, [76:23] that the country's reaction to feeling frightened and insecure [76:27] is to buy Sports Utility Vehicles that are large and massive and tank-like [76:32] and make individual people feel safer, [76:34] but also get four miles-to-the-gallon [76:37] in a country where gasoline is probably one-fifth as expensive as it ought to be. [76:44] There's a sanity in Europe about gasoline prices and fuel consumption [76:49] that there isn't here yet. [76:50] And yet, are voting for people who are deciding to go over [76:55] and very possibly kill hundreds of thousands of civilians [77:00] in order to kill a few enemies. [77:03] None of which is important, [77:05] but the fact that no one here is talking about the connection between [77:09] how we live and what we drive [77:14] and the things that are happening. [77:16] The speed with which it's become, [77:18] those bad people, those bad fanatics, they're evil, [77:23] what they really hate is our freedom and our way of life, [77:27] which is just hard to swallow, right? Who hates freedom? [77:29] People hate people, not freedom. [77:37] I now don't know what's going to happen. [77:42] And I am, as an American, as scared ... [77:48] Not since I was a little boy and I worried about the U.S. and the Soviet Union [77:51] having an intercontinental - [77:53] Not since that, have I been this scared. [77:57] And this is totally personally, but I'm more scared of us [78:01] than I am of anybody else. [78:03] That's a bleak place to be. [78:05] I'm not sure how I feel about ... [78:08] Well, you're going to use it if you want. [78:11] I don't think this is an evil country. [78:14] I don't think American people are evil. [78:16] I think we've had it very ... [78:19] I think we've had it very easy, materially, for a long time, [78:22] and we've gotten very little help in understanding [78:27] things that are important besides being comfortable. [78:29] I don't think anybody knows how we will react if things get really hard here. [78:36] The fact that we're strong militarily and economically is a good thing, [78:40] but it's also a frightening thing. [78:44] To some of us, as Americans. [78:51] Luckily, not a lot of Americans will see this in Germany. [78:56] Interviewer: Are there any means of rebellion? [78:56] Interviewer: Are there any means of rebellion? [79:01] Sure. [79:03] Interviewer: So, what would it be? [79:08] Well, there are people doing it all over the place. [79:14] I don't know about people rappelling down buildings and getting tear gassed and stuff. [79:22] The people I know who are rebelling meaningfully [79:24] don't buy a lot of stuff. [79:31] And don't get their view of the world from television. [79:36] And are willing to spend four or five hours researching an election [79:41] rather than going by commercials. [79:43] The thing about it is that [79:45] in America, we think of rebellion as this very sexy thing [79:48] and it involves action and force and looks good. [79:52] My guess is the forms of rebellion that will end up changing anything meaningfully here [79:57] will be very quiet and very individual. [80:01] And probably not all that interesting to look at from the outside. [80:05] I'm now hoping for less interesting, rather than more interesting. [80:10] Violence is interesting [80:12] and horrible corruption and scandals [80:15] and rattling sabers and talking about war [80:18] and demonizing a billion people of a different faith in the world. [80:21] Those are all interesting. [80:22] Sitting in a chair and really thinking about what this means [80:26] and why the fact that what I drive might have something to do with [80:30] how people in other parts of the world feel about me [80:34] isn't interesting to anybody else. [80:37] That was very close to the truth, but I don't think it's going to make much sense. [80:40] And plus, it's a little silly. I'm a writer. [80:43] I'm not a politician or a political thinker or whatever. [80:47] Just a scared little American. [80:50] Living in California. [80:53] Interviewer: Just one more question. [80:53] Interviewer: Just one more question. [80:55] Do you think there is a chance that [81:00] we might get rid of this love for attractiveness? [81:09] It's this visual thing. [81:13] And you said rebellion is supposed to be attractive. [81:16] People think, well, it's attractive to take your gun and be this rebel. [81:21] But the true rebellion is not supposed to be attractive, [81:25] because it just isn't. [81:27] So how do we get rid of all this visual ... [81:33] It's weird to be saying this on television. [81:33] It's weird to be saying this on television. [81:36] There's something about ... there's nothing wrong ... [81:42] It's not that there's anything wrong [81:45] with being interested in stuff that's interesting and attractive. [81:47] What it seems to be like here is ... [81:52] Television and corporate entertainment, [81:57] because it's so expensive, in order to make money, [82:00] it has to appeal to a very wide audience. [82:01] Which means it has to find things that a lot of people have in common. [82:06] And I don't know about you, but here, I think, [82:09] what most of us have in common here [82:13] are our very most base, uninteresting, selfish, stupid interests. [82:19] Physical attractiveness. Sex. A certain kind of easy humor. Vivid spectacle. [82:26] That's stuff that I will immediately look at, and so will you, and so will you. [82:33] So it's in our very most base and childish interests that we are a mass. [82:40] The things that make us interesting and unique and human, [82:43] those interests tend to be wildly different between different people. [82:49] So, my guess is ... [82:54] In terms of American mass culture, as a mass, [82:57] for things to get significantly different, [83:00] what it's going to involve is fragmentation in the entertainment industry. [83:06] Something like what's happened in the American magazine industry, [83:10] where instead of three or four magazines with millions of subscribers, [83:15] you have thousands of magazines, each with a few thousand. [83:18] That is, if entertainment can get more niche - [83:22] N, I, C, H, E, is the English word - [83:27] it's possible that these companies that put this stuff out [83:31] can stay alive and make money without having to appeal to ten, twenty million people. [83:36] Because I don't think that it's evil. It's just the way that it works. [83:41] The only way to get ten or twenty million people all interested in the same thing [83:45] is to pitch your appeal very very low. [83:48] Because maybe you're not interested in any of the things that I named, [83:52] you know, just immediately, but I am. [83:54] I'm no different than anybody else. I'm not, really.