Rainn Wilson Credits Spiritual Practice and Gratitude for Overcoming Career Anxiety

Rainn Wilson将克服职业焦虑归功于灵性修行与感恩 这位《办公室》（The Office）主演认为，若不与灵性臣服及当下感恩相结合，不受节制的野心与物质成功只会带来长期的不快乐。 在这场内容广泛的访谈中，演员Rainn Wilson反思了童年遭遗弃、家庭功能失调以及严重焦虑如何塑造了他的喜剧本能，以及他对内心平静的漫长追寻。他坦诚透露，尽管凭借《办公室》（The Office）获得了全球声誉和经济成功，但由于自负与野心，他在数年间始终感到长期的不快乐。Wilson探讨了个人的失去、婚姻以及为人父在其生活中的关键作用，同时主张将灵性工具、十二步康复法则以及“阴影工作”（shadow work）作为应对现代不满情绪的重要解药。 尽管在热门剧集《办公室》（The Office）中成功饰演 Dwight Schrute 并收获名利，Rainn Wilson 坦承自己当时因被无止境的野心吞噬而深感不快乐，体会到外界的世俗成功并不能自动带来内心的满足与安宁。 (51:46) 结合自身童年创伤与心理健康问题，Wilson 援引 Arthur Brooks 的理论指出，喜剧作用于创伤的机制如同感恩作用于抑郁，是帮助个体转换视角、避免走向自我毁灭的关键认知生存工具。 (5:33) 25 岁时在布鲁克林一家废弃啤酒厂的贫困生活与伴随的严重惊恐发作，促使 Wilson 经历长达数年的存在主义危机，并开启了系统性重构信仰与自我疗愈的灵性探索之旅。 (18:17) 父亲的去世让 Wilson 深刻体会到肉体只是暂时的容器，而生命本质是神圣的精神存在；好友临终前关于排除生活“杂音”（static）的叮嘱，也促使他将冥想作为抽离日常焦虑、安放当下的核心实践。 (26:13)

Actor Rainn Wilson argues that conventional achievements cannot heal underlying psychological wounds, contending that genuine fulfillment requires confronting personal trauma, integrating the ego's shadow, and redirecting ambition from self-gratification toward spiritual service. Childhood Trauma and Comedy as Survival (5:33) Wilson attributes his lifelong vulnerability to anxiety and depression to childhood instability, beginning with his mother's abandonment when he was 18 months old, followed by a move to the jungles of Nicaragua with his father at age three. After returning to suburban Seattle, his home life was marked by emotional alienation and domestic volatility—including explosive kitchen screaming matches that abruptly ceased whenever his parents hosted gatherings for the Baha'i Faith. Raised in a household devoid of emotional literacy where rage was the primary modeled emotion, Wilson experienced his first emotional awakening as a teenager during a breakdown at a Denny's restaurant when his biological mother asked about his well-being. Rather than adopting a stance of victimhood, Wilson views his past as the catalyst for his artistic vocation. Citing Harvard professor Dr. Arthur Brooks, he maintains that comedy functions as a neurological counterweight to trauma in the same manner that gratitude counters depression. For Wilson, comedic performance was not merely an innate talent, but a vital cognitive survival mechanism developed to reframe chronic pain. The Disillusionment of Reaching Career Success (51:46) After enduring severe panic attacks and squalid living conditions in an abandoned Brooklyn brewery at age 25, Wilson eventually achieved mainstream visibility, industry accolades, and financial wealth portraying Dwight Schrute on *The Office*. However, he admits he spent years on the series consumed by discontent, perpetually anxious about why he was not securing major feature film roles or an exclusive studio deal at Warner Bros. Wilson uses this experience to critique the cultural belief that achieving money, recognition, or vocational dreams guarantees happiness. While acknowledging that wealth removes the acute stressors of poverty—having spent his first 15 professional years worrying about finances—he argues that reaching external milestones cannot eliminate existential dread or chronic dissatisfaction (*dukkha*). Without present-moment awareness and gratitude, goal-oriented achievement merely defers fulfillment to an ever-receding horizon. Transcending Static Through Spiritual Inquiry (33:11) Grounded by the death of his father from heart disease complications and the passing of director David Von Ancken from stage-four cancer, Wilson emphasizes the necessity of distinguishing fundamental reality from daily distractions. Von Ancken's dying counsel that career pressures, scheduling, and logistical admin are merely 'static' prompted Wilson to cultivate meditative detachment, comparing spiritual practice to the Buddhist metaphor of a lotus rising above murky swamp water. To make spirituality accessible, Wilson defines it as an intentional focus on non-material virtues—namely love, compassion, humility, and honesty—rather than animalistic impulses toward power and status. Citing Jesuit priest Father Pierre Teilhard de Chardin's observation that humans are spiritual beings having a human experience, Wilson argues that recognizing the physical body as an ephemeral vessel enables individuals to observe negative thoughts and emotional turmoil without conflating them with their core identity. Ego Integration and the Paradox of Surrender (62:11) Wilson cautions that personal development does not permanently eliminate toxic impulses, comparing the ego to an addict in the basement waiting for moments of vulnerability. Relying on Carl Jung's concept of the shadow, he advocates for acknowledging one's entitled and resentful inclinations with self-acceptance rather than repression, likening the process to keeping an abrasive ventriloquist dummy seated on one's lap. To counter an individualistic culture centered on control, Wilson highlights the mechanics of 12-step recovery programs as an essential spiritual model. He identifies immense strength in the paradox of surrender—relinquishing self-will, admitting powerlessness, and promptly acknowledging personal errors. Rather than killing ambition, Wilson maintains that this inner shift reframes personal drive away from ego satisfaction and toward communal service, sustained relationships, and meaningful creative work. While Wilson presents gratitude, ego-surrender, and service as effective antidotes to chronic dissatisfaction, he acknowledges the ongoing daily challenge of taming the ego while sustaining professional ambition. An unresolved tension remains in whether high-level creative and commercial success can be pursued over the long term without inadvertently rekindling the anxious discontent that originally fueled it.

演员Rainn Wilson结合自身经历指出，世俗名利与外部成就无法直接换取内心平静，无休止的自我执念往往是慢性痛苦的根源；他认为唯有直面创伤、接纳自身阴暗面并将人生重心转向利他与灵性追求，才能实现深层的心理疗愈。 童年创伤与作为生存机制的喜剧 (5:33) Wilson坦言其早期成长环境构成了日后焦虑、抑郁与成瘾倾向的温床。他一岁半时遭遇生母遗弃，三岁随信仰巴哈伊教的父亲前往尼加拉瓜丛林生活，返美后定居西雅图郊区。由于家庭内部充斥着代际酗酒史、情感冷漠以及虚伪的冲突掩饰——父母常在举行宗教聚会前激烈争吵摔盘，但在客人敲门时立刻伪装和睦——Wilson在青少年阶段完全丧失了疏导悲伤与失落的能力，直至十五六岁时生母在餐厅询问其内心状况才首次失声痛哭。然而，Wilson拒绝纯粹以受害者视角看待过去。他引述学者Arthur Brooks的理论指出，幽默之于创伤恰如感恩之于抑郁，喜剧并非单纯的演艺天赋，而是个体在痛苦中转移认知视角、避免走向自我毁灭的关键生存救生艇。 《办公室》时期的成功幻象与慢性不满 (51:46) 凭借在美剧《办公室》中饰演Dwight Schrute一角，Wilson获得了巨大的行业知名度、数百万美元收入与奖项提名，但他承认自己在该剧拍摄的数年间大多感到极度不快乐。Wilson指出，社会叙事普遍灌输了一种错误假象，即实现特定职业目标或财富阶层即可自动确保幸福，但其自身经历证明，失控的自我欲望（Ego）会持续滋生焦虑。当时的他陷入对更多电影角色、制作协议和更高行业地位的执念中，无法享受当下的艺术创造。Wilson借用佛教中的“苦”（dukkha）概念解释这种慢性不满，指出若个体不断将快乐推迟至未来、寄托于外部条件的兑现，便会陷入永恒的匮乏感。他强调物质财富虽能解除生存困境，但绝不能直接带来心灵的充实，而每日践行感恩则是对抗这种不满的核心解药。 生死体验、灵性觉醒与超越日常杂音 (26:13) 1991年（25岁），毕业于戏剧学院的Wilson在纽约陷入严重的精神危机，在恶劣的居住环境中遭受恐慌发作与自杀念头的反复折磨。这场持续五六年的危机迫使他重估被自己抛弃的信仰体系，开启了长达数年的灵性求索。随后其父亲因心脏手术并发症离世，以及好友、导演David Von Ancken因晚期胃癌去世，彻底转变了他的生命认知。目睹父亲遗体时，Wilson体会到肉体仅是承载意识的“容器”，并认同德日进神父（Teilhard de Chardin）关于“人类本质上是体验肉身历程的灵性存在”这一论述。此外，好友生前关于世俗琐事与野心皆为“杂音”（static）的告诫，促使Wilson在冥想中借用莲花破泥而出的意象。他指出，通过冥想找到不受思绪情绪干扰的“内在观察者”，能够帮助人们超越日常杂音，聚焦爱、同理心与谦逊等崇高价值。 阴暗面整合、臣服与十二步法的心理智慧 (62:11) Wilson在剖析持续疗愈的机制时强调，心灵成熟并非消灭人格缺陷，而是学会与内心的阴暗面共处。他结合荣格（Carl Jung）的“阴暗面”（shadow）理论，将自己内心自命不凡、享有特权感且容易上瘾的特质比作坐在膝头的“腹语玩偶”，主张以幽默和接纳的态度直面它，而非一味压制。与此同时，Wilson高度赞赏戒瘾领域的“十二步疗法”，指出其核心悖论在于“通过承认自身无能为力与主动臣服，反向获得内在力量”。在推崇个人主义与自我掌控的现代社会中，放弃对结果的强求、依靠社群与超越性力量是走出心理孤岛的良方。Wilson进一步强调了其中“在犯错时立即承认”的务实原则，并回顾其与妻子Holiday Reinhorn三十余年的相处历程，认为在亲密关系中学习同理心并重构自我认知，是化解自我中心幻象的重要基石。 Wilson的核心主张在于，依靠世俗成功与自我执念无法解决深层的心理危机，真正的平静依赖于向内审视、接纳阴暗面以及建立超越物质的精神联结。然而，关于如何平衡职业进取心与完全的内在知足，Wilson亦承认自身仍在不断权衡：尽管他努力将驱动力从自我满足转向利他服务，但世俗雄心与内省知足之间的张力仍是一个长期存在的现实课题。

## Background 本期内容由商业人物访谈频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2023 年 8 月 28 日发布在 YouTube 平台。页面简介介绍，本期节目将带观众走近不为人知的雷恩·威尔森（Rainn Wilson），讲述他从中美洲丛林的童年漂泊到出演经典美剧《办公室》名声大噪的人生历程，并结合其著作《Soul Boom》探讨对抗抑郁、虚无与精神觉醒的心路历程。 ## TL;DR 因饰演《办公室》中杜怀特一角而闻名全球的雷恩·威尔森，在对谈中坦率揭开了喜剧面具背后被忽视、虐待与成瘾纠缠的创伤人生。他坦言自己虽在演艺巅峰坐拥名利与艾美奖提名，内心却长期被索求更多、推迟幸福的“慢性不满”所蚕食，喜剧一度是他逃避痛苦的自救工具。面对至亲与挚友的相继离世，雷恩重拾对精神与灵性维度的探索，逐步学会与自己内心如腹语木偶般的“阴影面”和平共处，借助十二步戒瘾法中的臣服智慧、当下感恩以及灵魂伴侣的爱，最终走出了自我的精神牢笼。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在深邃沉重的情感坦白与猝不及防的黑色幽默之间自如切换，营造出宛如深夜心理诊疗般赤诚、脆弱而极具张力的氛围。史蒂芬带着对嘉宾作品的深厚共鸣温和引导，雷恩则卸下明星光环，从窒息惊恐发作的绝望回忆流畅过渡到夸张怪诞的腹语木偶模仿。整期节目既有直面死亡与虚无时的哲学厚重感，又充满了通透释然后的睿智与温度，给听众带来强烈的情感震荡与精神抚慰。 ## Bulletin - [51:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3105s) 《办公室》主演雷恩·威尔森（Rainn Wilson）坦承，在饰演德怀特（Dwight Schrute）并斩获名利巅峰的数年间，自己长期陷入极度不快乐与“慢性不满”，深刻揭露了“如果获得名利就会幸福”的世俗谎言。 - [06:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=366s) 雷恩幼年遭母亲遗弃并在尼加拉瓜丛林度过童年，长期深陷抑郁、惊恐发作与代际酗酒创伤，但主张痛苦是喜剧与灵性觉醒的天然催化剂，迫使人选择通过幽默实现救赎。 - [26:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=1573s) 在挚友与父亲相继离世后，雷恩认识到人类只是“拥有人类体验的精神存在”，日常琐事多为消耗能量的“杂音”，需要借助冥想中的觉知者意识与感恩来抽离升华。 - [01:06:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3992s) 雷恩将“十二步戒瘾法”誉为近几百年最深刻的精神运动之一，其核心在于放下盲目控制、承认自身无能为力并向社群与更高力量臣服，从而重塑内在坚韧。 ## Key takeaways - [51:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3105s) 成名与巨额财富无法自动带来心理满足，执着于自我（ego）与“如果-那么”的幸福公式只会加剧慢性不满与精神内耗。 - [06:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=366s) 童年早期遭受遗弃与家庭情感虐待，会导致长期的安全感缺失，但也成为驱使许多杰出喜剧演员化痛苦为幽默的根本驱动力。 - [13:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=780s) 虚伪的家庭环境与宗教表象带来的“煤气灯效应”，让孩子难以建立正常的情绪认知工具箱，甚至促使青少年时期的精神叛逃与情感麻木。 - [26:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=1573s) 肉体不过是承载意识的暂时容器或“肉身皮囊”，真正的自我并不是大脑中纷乱的思绪，而是在背后静观万象的觉知者。 - [33:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2024s) 现代人疲于应对的邮件、会议和琐务本质上都是阻碍精神深度的“杂音”，唯有学会像淤泥中的荷花般超脱，才能感知生命的神圣维度。 - [40:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2441s) 灵性并不神秘，其核心定义是对生命中非物质维度（如爱、同理心与利他）的关注，能够打破纯粹唯物还原论的冷酷解释。 - [55:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3320s) 治疗慢性不满的最佳解药是活在当下的感恩实践，将每日关注点从未来目标转向对当下所拥有的健康、家庭与技艺的珍惜。 - [57:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3451s) 事业进取心可以由“自我的战争”转向“服务社会的天赋施展”，以利他使命为导向的野心能带来真正的内在充盈与福祉。 - [01:05:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3908s) 心理成长并不是彻底消灭内心的阴影与成瘾人格，而是如摆弄腹语木偶般拥抱并接纳自己自私脆弱的一面，与之和平共处。 - [01:06:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3992s) 十二步疗法的精髓在于通过“臣服”承认自身局限性，用彻底的坦诚、迅速认错与谦卑来瓦解孤立小我的控制执念。 - [01:12:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4370s) 长期健康的亲密关系是治愈童年创伤的避风港，伴侣的温情与包容能够作为重新学习如何去爱与育儿的人性指引。 - [01:17:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4647s) 面对霸凌行为，完整的干预机制应当涵盖制止施暴者、给予受害者情感修复与抚慰、以及主动向权威报告的三步递进法。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=0s) 开篇预告：喜剧背后的童年阴影与无止境的欲望 节目开篇以一段极具张力的独白拉开帷幕。观众所熟知的雷恩·威尔森（Rainn Wilson），是在经典美剧《办公室》（The Office）中饰演大加斯·杜怀特·舒鲁特（Dwight Schrute）——那个狂热效忠老板、总是高喊“撑住，迈克尔！我来了！”的助理区域经理。然而荧幕上的荒诞滑稽背后，雷恩的真实人生却充斥着深刻的苦楚。他坦承自己曾经历过冷落、虐待、抛弃，并长期被焦虑、抑郁与成瘾症纠缠。在最绝望的岁月里，惊恐发作会让他全身颤抖、大汗淋漓地瘫倒在地，误以为自己大限将至，甚至在凌晨三点惊醒并叩问内心：“我为什么还要活下去？” 耐人寻味的是，雷恩并未沉溺于对过往的怨恨，反而对这些苦难心怀感激。他指出，许多伟大的喜剧演员都成长于痛苦的深渊，因为幽默能从根本上转移人们对创伤的凝视——在某种极端境遇下，人往往面临着“要么自杀，要么去搞喜剧”的残酷抉择，而喜剧成为了他的救赎之门。谈及职业生涯的巅峰，雷恩道出了惊人的真相：即便身处《办公室》这一让无数人艳羡的梦想剧组，他在其中好几年却大多处于极度不快乐的状态中。无休止的贪念让他总想获得更多片约、积累更多财富，而只要人执着于满足膨胀的自我（ego），就永远无法体味真正的幸福。 为了化解内心的自我分裂，雷恩提出必须正视并接纳自己潜意识中的“阴影”（Shadow）。每个人心中都有一个自大、自以为是、自命不凡的阴暗面，试图将其拒之千里只会适得其反。相反，人们应当拥抱并关爱这部分阴影，甚至像腹语表演者对待木偶一样，将它抱在怀里，倾听它的刻薄讽刺，并学会与之和平共处。 --- ### [01:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=89s) 订阅频道约定与生命起点：尼加拉瓜丛林与巴哈伊信仰 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）在访谈正式切入前分享了一组后台数据：长期观看该频道的忠实受众中，有高达 69.9% 的人尚未点击订阅。他借此向听众诚挚发起倡议，承诺将以不断提升节目品质作为回馈，与观众达成持续成长的默契约定。随后，话题转向雷恩最初的人生图景。为了理解雷恩如今的为人与处世哲学，史蒂芬邀请他追溯最早的成长环境与决定性因素。 雷恩回忆道，塑造他人生的几个核心碎片早在蹒跚学步时就已埋下。在他仅有一岁半时，生母便决然离家出走。自幼失去母爱的雷恩与父亲相依为命。他的父亲是一位兼具抽象派画家与科幻小说家身份的知识分子，同时也是一名虔诚的巴哈伊信仰（Baha'i Faith）信徒。巴哈伊信仰是全球最年轻的独立世界性宗教之一，全球约有 600 万名信众，其分布广泛度仅次于基督教，无论是在蒙古、泰国还是博茨瓦纳，都能找到活跃的巴哈伊社群。 在经历婚变并深感被抛弃后，父亲在雷恩年仅 3 岁时做出了一个激进的决定——带着年幼的儿子远走他乡，搬迁至中美洲尼加拉瓜的热带雨林中生活。一个刚刚被母亲遗弃的幼童，就这样在异国真实的原始丛林中度过了数年时光。直到雷恩到了该上幼儿园与小学一年级的年龄，父子俩才重新迁回美国华盛顿州。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 雷恩·威尔森早年生活轨迹 accDescr: 展示雷恩·威尔森从幼年遭母遗弃、移居尼加拉瓜丛林到返回华盛顿州的生活转折 subgraph 早期变故与丛林生活 A["1岁半：母亲遗弃离家"] --> B["与父亲相依为命"] B --> C["父亲带其迁往尼加拉瓜丛林（3岁）"] end subgraph 归国与家庭重组 C --> D["适龄返美（幼儿园/一年级）"] D --> E["定居华盛顿州西雅图郊区"] E --> F["父亲再婚：后妈主导抚养"] end ``` --- ### [03:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=225s) 充满抑郁与伪善的童年温床：22年心理治疗的领悟 直到步入四十岁大关，雷恩才在漫长的回望与反思中重新审视自己的过往。在过去接受摄影师兼播客主持人蔡斯·贾维斯（Chase Jarvis）的访谈时，雷恩曾坦言，回首童年，他才意识到那段岁月其实深埋着严重的抑郁与焦虑。然而在当时幼小的心灵里，他对此毫无觉察，唯有借助岁月的后见之明才看得分明。面对史蒂芬关于这些心理创伤根源与病理表征的提问，雷恩给出了坦率的解答：这背后凝结着长达 22 年系统性心理治疗所换来的觉知。 雷恩指出，一个在幼儿时期就被遗弃的孩子，其精神根基注定遭受重创。更令他精神错乱的是一种荒诞的“煤气灯效应”（Gaslighting）与心理断层：在公共社交中，父亲带他沉浸在巴哈伊信仰的美好愿景里，大家围坐在一起弹唱灵歌、携手祈祷、冥想，研读来自世界各地的神圣经典，高谈阔论世界和平、博爱、连接与奉献；然而一回到西雅图郊区的家中，现实却是彻头彻尾的冰冷死寂。 父亲回到美国后与雷恩的继母重组了家庭，继母承担了抚养雷恩的主要职责，但两人的婚姻却是一场毫无爱意的空壳结合。幼小的雷恩每天都在这两种极端撕裂的现实之间游走：白天是圣洁博爱的聚会，晚上是缺乏温度与情感流动的家庭空壳。这种虚伪的氛围宛如一个精神培养皿，直接滋生了雷恩成年后长期的成瘾问题、重度抑郁、惊恐障碍以及强烈的疏离感。此外，雷恩直言家族双侧数代人均有酗酒病史，这种生物基因层面的脆弱性与童年创伤交织在一起，最终将他拖入了精神失调的泥潭。 - **家庭矛盾的核心**：外在展示的博爱与和平信仰，与家庭内部窒息、无爱的冷暴力空壳婚姻形成剧烈反差。 - **生理与代际因素**：父系与母系家族均存在跨越数代的酗酒病史，使他在遗传层面上对成瘾与情绪障碍更为脆弱。 --- ### [06:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=366s) 痛苦的馈赠：在自杀与喜剧之间选择救赎 史蒂芬谈及知名心理学家嘉保·马特（Gabor Maté）的创伤理论：儿童在心智未成熟时往往带有本能的“全能自恋倾向”，会将周遭发生的一切归咎于自身——例如父母发生争吵，婴儿会本能地认定是自己的过错，微小的家庭异样便能给孩子留下终生的心理烙印。雷恩对此深表认同，他在长年的康复与心理探索中，将自身的病痛清清楚楚地锚定在幼年遭受的系统性失衡与虐待之上。 雷恩强调，每个人的一生都在某种程度上背负着创伤，关键在于敢于深挖并正视过去的痛苦、家庭的谎言以及曾经遭受的情感操纵和宗教创伤。但他对待创伤的态度并非怨尤，而是一种发自肺腑的感激： > “如果我拥有一个幸福美满、心理平衡的童年，我不知道我的职业会是什么，但我绝不可能成为一名演员，更不可能成为一名成功的演员。” 童年的苦难与忽视虽然在雷恩成年后带来了巨大折磨，却也化为一股不可替代的驱动力：逼迫他去探寻更好的自己，将他推向深度研习世界各大精神传统的觉醒之路，更重要的是，这些痛苦彻底催生了他的喜剧天赋。雷恩援引哈佛大学学者阿瑟·布鲁克斯（Arthur Brooks）的观点阐明，**幽默是对抗痛苦与创伤的天然解药**。正如人们通过感恩日记与正念冥想将注意力转移至微小的幸福（哪怕只是一杯香浓的热茶）从而驱散抑郁一样，喜剧亦是一种强行改变认知视角的心理介入机制。 纵观历史，许多殿堂级喜剧大师——如金·凯瑞（Jim Carrey）与罗宾·威廉姆斯（Robin Williams）——其私下的人生都伴随着巨大的精神撕裂与心理折磨。雷恩创立的数字媒体与制作公司 SoulPancake 曾专门拍摄过一部探讨心理健康与喜剧交叉点的纪录片《笑事一桩》（Laughing Matters）。在雷恩看来，喜剧往往是绝境中唯一的逃生通道：“摆在你面前的选择很简单：要么去死，要么去做喜剧。”当史蒂芬追问雷恩所提及的“虐待”具体是指哪种形式时，雷恩坦言那其中包含了各种不同维度的精神与情感伤害，而不单单是轻描淡写的心理博弈。 ### [10:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=653s) Denny's 餐厅里被压抑的崩溃：缺失的情感工具箱 当被问及如果遇到十五六岁时的自己会看到怎样一个人时，雷恩·威尔森（Rainn Wilson）将其形容为一个“笨拙、自我厌恶、单纯，并且完全与自己内心情感隔绝”的少年。在与父亲和继母生活的成长环境里，家庭内部几乎拥有“零情感工具”。家里唯一被允许宣泄的情绪是愤怒，另一种极端则是在巴哈伊信仰（Baha'i）聚会上表现出的齐声歌唱、祈祷与冥想。至于悲伤、沮丧、失望等所谓的“负面情绪”，家里根本无人知晓该如何疏导与面对。 这种长久的情感麻木在他与生母重逢时被彻底击碎。雷恩回忆，母亲重新回到他的生活后，他们相约在华盛顿州雅基马（Yakima）的一家 Denny's 餐厅。当两人正坐着等待“大满贯早餐”（Grand Slam breakfast）端上桌时，母亲看着他轻声问道：“雷恩，你看起来整个人绷得特别紧，到底怎么了？你的心还好吗？” 这句话仿佛瞬间击中了他内心的死穴。没有任何预兆，十五六岁的雷恩在餐厅里当场失控，爆发出无法抑制的剧烈抽泣。那种近乎干呕、浑身颤抖的号哭在喧闹的连锁早餐店里显得极为狼狈，但对他而言，这正是他渴求已久的情感连接——终于有人真诚地关切他的内心感受。这次崩溃也开启了他长久以来对人类情感世界的探索与学习。 ### [13:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=780s) 信仰聚会前后的荒诞面具与精神叛逃 雷恩进一步剖析了童年家庭环境对心智造成的精神内耗（Gaslighting）。他并不全怪继母，坦言父亲在婚姻中极为自私和自恋，双方的关系严重失衡。最荒诞的场景莫过于家里准备举办巴哈伊信徒聚会：前一秒，继母还在厨房里歇斯底里地大发雷霆，狠摔碗碟，瓷器碎裂声与尖叫声充斥全屋；后一秒门铃“叮咚”响起，客人带着鲜花和自制曲奇站在门外。 紧接着，继母会怒气冲冲地穿过客厅，狠狠摔上卧室门反锁；而父亲则若无其事地拉开大门，笑容满面地迎客：“快请进，非常感谢你们能来！”整场聚会中，大家照常研读圣典、齐声祈祷，仿佛方才的暴力冲突从未发生过。 对于一个只有八九岁、十来岁的孩子来说，这种强烈的认知割裂带来了巨大的混乱：“大家到底在干什么？我们难道就是这样生活的吗？情绪翻江倒海却绝口不提，然后转头一起向上帝祈祷？”这种极度虚伪的表象直接促使雷恩在二十多岁时与宗教和精神信仰彻底决裂。他不愿再沾染任何与道德、神学相关的东西，直到数年后深陷严重的精神危机，他才被迫重拾这些古老的精神智慧，寻找自愈与救赎的出路。 ### [15:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=908s) 一张黑胶唱片与高中“戏剧怪咖”的避难所 从家庭的情绪创伤到走上演艺之路，表演对雷恩而言更像是一场拯救自己的宿命。除了生母曾经也热爱表演这一潜在的遗传因素外，雷恩在青少年时期就对演戏产生了一种磁石般的本能向往，尽管当时他根本不知道演员是一门能够谋生的正经职业。 真正改变他人生的转折点，发生在全家从西雅图搬迁至芝加哥之后。雷恩转入了一所戏剧项目非常出色的高中，并在入学第一周参加了人生第一堂表演课。那堂课的练习主题是“假装你在自己卧室，没有人在看你”。雷恩特意从家里搬来了黑胶唱机和杂物，在全班面前放起了埃尔维斯·科斯特洛（Elvis Costello）的摇滚歌曲《Mystery Dance》。 伴随着躁动的音乐，这个原本满脸粉刺、笨拙拘谨的少年彻底放飞自我：他在地上打滚、夸张地对口型、四肢抽搐般狂跳，滑稽荒诞的表演瞬间引爆了整间教室。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 从边缘学生到戏剧狂热者的转变 accDescr: 展示雷恩·威尔森在高中通过戏剧表演从孤立无援走向获得群体认可的演变过程。 subgraph Before["表演前的边缘状态"] A["下国际象棋 / 吹大管 / 模联"] B["自卑闭塞 / 极少与女生交谈"] end subgraph TurningPoint["戏剧课堂突破"] C["《Mystery Dance》对口型荒诞独舞"] end subgraph After["获得的群体接纳"] D["全班喝彩 / 拍肩击掌"] E["受欢迎女同学主动邀请共进午餐"] F["告别大管与棋盘，扎根戏剧圈"] end Before --> TurningPoint TurningPoint --> After ``` 表演结束后，掌声雷动，同学们纷纷上前拍他的肩膀、击掌叫好；几位漂亮的十一年级高年级女生甚至主动跑来搭讪：“天哪，你来自西雅图吗？太棒了，中午要不要来我们的桌子一起吃午餐？”在此之前，雷恩只是一个下国际象棋、吹大管（Bassoon）、参加模拟联合国的自卑边缘男孩，几乎从不和女生讲话。那一刻，他下定决心：“去他的大管，去他的国际象棋队！我要和这群戏剧怪咖（Drama geeks）混在一起。”他坦承，自己选择演戏的初衷并不崇高，而是因为那里能获得爱、认同感，能用逗笑他人的才华换来异性的关注。 ### [18:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=1104s) 布鲁克林废弃酒厂里的恐慌发作与迷茫岁月 从戏剧学院毕业后，大约在1991年（25岁左右），雷恩遭遇了极为黑暗的精神与心理崩溃。当时他虽然能接到一些零星的演出，但微薄的报酬根本无法维持生计。他和一位朋友借住在纽约布鲁克林一家废弃的啤酒厂里，生活状态形同合法占屋： - 室内既没有供暖系统，也没有淋浴设备； - 经常能听到老鼠在脚边窜来窜去的窸窣声； - 为了糊口，他在一家酒吧做侍应生，常常凌晨4点才精疲力竭地下班。 在这种失控、放任、滥用药物与酒精的混乱生活中，极度严重的惊恐发作（Anxiety attacks）突如其来地将他击溃。发作时，雷恩会浑身冒冷汗、心悸剧烈、瘫倒在冰冷的地板上剧烈发抖，多次误以为自己大限将至，甚至五次抓起电话想要拨打911求救。他在纽约大学（NYU）咨询医生后才第一次得知这是恐慌发作，但在90年代初，全社会对心理健康和精神危机毫无概念，普通人也根本负担不起伍迪·艾伦（Woody Allen）式的心理咨询。 这种迷茫与恐慌的状态断断续续折磨了他五六年的时间。即便后来工作有所起色，他和相伴至今的女友（后成为妻子，两人已相守32年）搬进了更好的公寓，那种潜藏在骨子里的抑郁、无力感和心智透支依然如影随形。 ### [21:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=1318s) 凌晨三点的存在主义危机与“慢性不满” 雷恩·威尔森（Rainn Wilson）回忆起自己年轻时经常经历的一种深刻的疏离感与内心折磨。他常常在凌晨三点突然惊醒，睁大双眼死死盯着天花板，内心不断质问：“生活的意义到底是什么？我为什么会在这里？我为什么还要继续活下去？我该如何找到意义？”那是一种直击灵魂深处的痛苦与脱节感。主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）追问他是否真的问过自己“为什么还要活下去”，雷恩坦诚承认多年来自己确实有过自杀意念，尽管当时并没有付诸行动的明确计划，但这促使他开始审视人生的终极命题。 这种内心的崩塌伴随着一种巨大的荒谬感——从外在看，他当时过的生活甚至已经“超出了他最狂野的梦想”。作为一个在西雅图郊区长大、曾遭受虐待与情感操纵（gaslit）、极度自卑且社交困难、甚至极度厌恶自己的男孩，此时的他已经搬到了纽约，拥有漂亮的伴侣，并在剧院里作为一名职业演员登台演出。尽管收入微薄且工作断断续续，但这相较于过去已是难以置信的飞跃。 社会文化不断向大众灌输一套公式：“找到你热爱的事，投入时间去学习、打拼；虽然起步缓慢，但随着事业建立，你必然会在工作中收获巨大的喜悦、目标与意义。”雷恩当时确实靠演戏拿到了薪水，这本该是令人振奋的成就，但他内心却被一种无法解释的“慢性不满”（chronically dissatisfied）所笼罩。这种现实与社会期待之间的脱节让他深感困惑与自责，他觉得自己本该感到满足，却无论如何也无法快乐起来。 ### [24:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=1467s) 痛苦是指南针：开启八至十年的精神求索 这种慢性不满在雷恩二十多岁至三十岁出头时如潮水般反复袭来。然而，雷恩逐渐意识到“痛苦是一位极有价值的导师”。他援引作家阿瑟·布鲁克斯（Arthur Brooks）当天在大西洋月刊（The Atlantic）上发表的专栏文章指出：焦虑、抑郁与痛苦并不必然意味着你患有精神疾病，它们本质上是作为人类不可避免的标准体验。 对雷恩而言，抑郁与焦虑是一种生物和心理信号，警示着他的生活已经失去了平衡，必须主动去寻找重建平衡与理解生命的方法。在那个没有积极心理学播客、雷恩也对自助书籍知之甚少的年代，他回顾自己的成长背景，猛然意识到自己此前彻底摒弃了所有与上帝、精神性和宗教有关的事物。“也许正是在那里我迷失了方向，也许我需要重新探索那些道路，通过触碰精神理念来找回内心的意义与平静。”这场由痛苦催生的精神探索之旅漫长而曲折，整整持续了八到十年。 ### [26:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=1573s) 父亲的离世与“我们是拥有人类体验的精神存在” 雷恩在新书《Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution》中深入探讨了死亡。他认为，精神性探讨中最核心的问题之一就是“死后会发生什么”。尽管人类或许永远无法确切知晓答案，但这并不意味着我们不该去探索它。雷恩曾长期阅读、思考并讨论这一议题，但直到大约三年前父亲罗伯特·威尔森（Robert Wilson）的离世，才给他带来了颠覆性的顿悟，这也直接促成了《Soul Boom》的诞生。 雷恩的父亲患有心脏病，在接受四重心脏搭桥手术时发生意外，医生无法修复其严重受损的心脏。在病房里，雷恩与父亲的现任妻子（继母）不得不面临亲手拔掉生命维持系统的艰难抉择。那是一场极其痛苦、令人恐惧，却又荒诞地充满“影视陈词滥调”的经历。雷恩身上那种源于创伤的喜剧本能让他产生了一种抽离的审视感：监护仪的滴答声、吸氧机的运转声、医护人员橡胶鞋底与油毡地板摩擦发出的吱吱声，让他忍不住苦笑：“这简直就像在拍《急诊室的故事》（ER）或《实习医生格蕾》（Grey's Anatomy）。” 拔掉插头后不到一个小时，父亲停止了呼吸。雷恩在痛哭中凝视着病床上父亲逐渐灰暗的遗体——那根叛逆翘起的单根眉毛、手臂上的黑痣、熟悉的双手、略显杂乱的头发，所有这些细节都满载着爱与心碎。然而，凝视着那具冰冷身躯的瞬间，一道清晰的顿悟击中了他： > “这不是他。这不是我父亲。这只是承载我父亲的容器。罗伯特·威尔森和他那颗美丽的心灵、他的活力、创造力与光芒已经不在这里了。这个身体只是一具躯壳、一个容器、一个虚拟化身（Avatar）。” 雷恩清晰地感受到，父亲的生命并非像烛火那样被掐灭，而是真实地“去往了别处”。这让他切身体会到了法国耶稣会哲学家皮埃尔·德日进（Pierre Teilhard de Chardin）的名言：“我们不是拥有精神体验的人类，而是拥有人类体验的精神存在。”（We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience.）父亲用79年的时间完成了这段人类旅程，如今精神本体已然迁徙。 雷恩将这一洞见融入到了自己的生活态度中： - **看待自身肉体**：将自己57岁、微胖且开始衰退的躯体视为暂时的“肉身皮囊”（meat suits）。左耳失聪了一半、患有轻度睡眠呼吸暂停、清晨需要从嘴里取下推下颌的矫正牙套；甚至在《办公室》（The Office）中脱掉衬衫露出苍白修长的躯干供观众发笑，这一切在他看来都只是为喜剧与人生体验服务的道具。 - **重构心理健康认知**：人是栖居于肉体之中、来自神圣源头的璀璨碎片，在这具皮囊中度过八九十年。痛苦、焦虑与挣扎本身就是“这场游戏的一部分”。 ### [33:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=1991s) 挚友戴夫的突发噩耗 在探讨了直面死亡的精神升华后，话题转向了雷恩极为亲密的好友戴夫——全名大卫·冯·安肯（David Von Ancken）。戴夫是一位才华横溢的知名影视导演，为人极具魅力。然而，就在他五十多岁、人生年富力强之时，毫无征兆地被确诊为胃癌四期。这一近乎猝不及防的“死刑判决”，给雷恩及其身边的人带来了又一次沉重的生命震荡。 ### [33:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2024s) 临终挚友的领悟：“一切皆是杂音”与荷花的隐喻 在挚友大卫（David）被确诊癌症后的最后一年半里，雷恩·威尔森（Rainn Wilson）花了很多时间陪伴他，两人每周都会一起去海滩散步。在那些漫步中，大卫曾多次紧紧抓住雷恩的手臂，一遍又一遍地对他说：“雷恩，这一切全都是杂音（static）。全都是无谓的噪音。你必须把你生活里的这些杂音彻底清理出去。”大卫所指的杂音，是现代人每天疲于奔命的琐事：回不完的电子邮件、开不完的会议、追求职业晋升的焦虑、接连不断的预约、奔波驾驶与堵车、接听电话，以及没完没了的 Zoom 视频会议。雷恩深有共鸣，并把这个领悟写进了新书《Soul Boom》中；许多读者也反馈深感震撼，因为绝大多数人的日常生活确实就像被杂音与嗡嗡声裹挟的泥潭——除了开会、购物、开视频会，就是缴账单。 面对一个走向生命终点的人，雷恩感到处境十分微妙，他不想居高临下地去说教死亡，但每当散步时，他总试着把话题稍微引向更深邃的维度，探讨灵魂的存在、灵魂的旅程，以及精神如何超越人类身处的三维血肉之躯，走向彼岸之境。然而令人唏嘘的是，大卫像许多面临绝症的人一样，陷入了一种执念之中：他把所有清醒的精力和时间全部投入到了抗癌之中，拼命研究医学、治疗方案和饮食控制。大卫有一个女儿，直面死亡及其带来的终极议题对他来说极其恐怖。雷恩完全理解并不责怪他全力抗争，但也为他无法放下恐惧而感到难过。大卫对“杂音”的顿悟自此深深印在雷恩脑海中，成为他每日冥想的清醒剂——佛陀常以淤泥中盛开的“荷花”作比，在充满泥沼、污垢与飞虫的沼泽之上，盛开着圣洁美丽的花朵；而我们如何在日常的“杂音沼泽”中，成为那一朵出淤泥而不染的荷花，便成了至关重要的课题。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 杂音与超脱的对照模型 accDescr: 展示从物质琐事杂音上升到超越性精神观照的过程。 subgraph Swamp["日常沼泽（Swamp / Static）"] A["琐碎事务<br/>（邮件 / 会议 / 堵车 / 账单）"] B["无休止的奔波与<br/>动物性生存本能"] end subgraph Lotus["超脱升华（Lotus / The Observer）"] C["冥想觉察<br/>（觉知者 / 终极神圣连接）"] D["超越性体验<br/>（爱、同理心、神圣性）"] end A -->|被琐事淹没| B B -->|抽离与觉察| C C -->|扎根现实却高于尘世| D ``` --- ### [36:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2183s) 观照者意识与超脱杂音的冥想实践 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）顺着这个隐喻发问：如果现代人整天生活在杂音沼泽里，与此相对的另一种生活方式是什么？为什么未觉醒的生活会带来如此多的痛苦？梭罗（Henry David Thoreau）曾说“未经审视的人生不值得过”（注：此名言常源于苏格拉底，雷恩和主持人在此结合超验主义探讨），这到底意味着什么？雷恩提到自己年轻时深爱超验主义者（Transcendentalists），因为那是美国第一个真正承认“人是精神存在（spiritual beings）”的本土灵性运动。沉沦于沼泽与杂音的生活，本质上就是从未花时间去审视生命，从未去感知并尊崇生命中那些神圣的、具有神性维度的时刻。 雷恩分享了自己在深入冥想时所获得的深刻体悟： - **猴子心智（Monkey Mind）与杂念**：在静坐时，大脑里的思绪依然会像猴子一样乱跳，伴随着各种焦虑与纠结——比如“别人会接受我的报价吗？”、“那件事能不能成？”、“我妻子是不是还在生我的气？”。思维和情绪往往处于失衡的不和谐状态。 - **觉知者（The Witnesser / The Watcher）的觉醒**：当进入冥想状态后，人会奇迹般地退后一步，仿佛悬浮在那些思绪之上俯瞰它们。这时你会顿悟：**“我”的真正实体，既不是我的思绪，也不是我的情绪，甚至不仅是我的身体及其感官知觉，那个在背后静静观看这一切的“觉知者”，才是真正的我。** - **连接终极神圣（The Ultimate Divine）**：与内在的观照者联结，便能从日常杂音中解脱出来。雷恩在新书中写了一章名为《臭名昭著的上帝》（The Notorious G-O-D），主张通过祈祷或深层冥想去触碰终极存在。 - **在日常关系与自然中发现神圣**：除了大自然与孩童纯真的好奇心，人与人真诚的连接本身就是神圣的。雷恩直言，此刻他与史蒂芬的播客对谈就是神圣的（sacred conversation）——因为双方是在坦诚地试图理解彼此，而史蒂芬在为数百万渴望改善人生、创业、追求健康与开启灵性之旅的听众提供指引，这种服务本身就具备超越性的价值。 --- ### [40:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2441s) 什么是灵性？开货车的卡车司机如何理解爱与神圣体验 史蒂芬提出了一个非常接地气的问题：很多普通听众（例如此时正开着大货车在公路上奔波的司机）听到“灵性（Spirituality）”这个词时，可能会觉得这不过是嬉皮士那一套玄乎的废话；如果一个人完全没有灵性经验，该如何向他解释为什么生命需要灵性？雷恩风趣地先对着演播室的镜头调侃道：“听众朋友们先别关播客！后面还有很多好料，我保证呆会儿会大聊特聊《办公室》（The Office）的，请继续听下去！”随后，雷恩给出了一个极其清晰朴素的定义： > **灵性的本质定义，就是对生命中“非物质维度”（non-material aspects）的关注。** 它关乎我们的心灵、灵魂、人际联结以及内在的光芒。诸如爱、同理心、诚实与谦逊等美德，从纯粹的人类动物性角度看，并不直接服务于争夺权力、地位和物质舒适；但正是这些品质，让我们得以超脱平庸枯燥的生存境况。 雷恩进一步指出，即便有人完全不信神、反感宗教概念，也没有人会抗拒“爱”——爱是世间最珍贵的体验，追求生命中更多的爱，其实就是在追求灵性。为了阐述这一点，雷恩分享了他人生中最具震慑力的一次超验体验： - **儿子出生的惊魂时刻**：他的儿子在加州范奈斯（Van Nuys）一家条件极差的县立医院降生。那是一场极其凶险、充满鲜血的紧急剖腹产，母子险些丧命。 - **超越物质的狂喜与神圣之爱**：在半夜冰冷的急诊走廊里，当雷恩第一次把那个刚从母体中被强行取出、眼睛湛蓝的初生婴儿抱在怀中时，一种排山倒海般、长达数分钟的“爱的狂喜（transcendent love orgasm）”席卷了他的全身。那是一种超越了眼泪与感官的、宇宙级的战栗与感恩。 - **驳斥纯粹的唯物主义还原论**：雷恩坦言，坚定的唯物主义者会解释说这不过是大脑神经元放电、生物化学激素分泌，或者促使物种延续的演化本能。雷恩回应道：“神经元确实在放电，生化反应也确实存在，但这绝不仅仅是生化机制。没有人能说服我那只是一堆化学反应。我所经历的真实感受远超于此——如果你非要说我是在自我欺骗，那就随你吧，但这正是我所说的‘灵性’。” ### [44:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2698s) 儿子的诞生与被剥夺的“安全大本营” 谈及精神层面的探索，Rainn Wilson 提到所有修行的核心都在于增强那种“爱的联结”（Love Connection）——无论是与自我、自然、时间、美，还是与周围的同胞。而真正让他的人生经历根本性范式转变的，是儿子的降生。当你必须对一个完全依赖你照料的小生命负责时，整个人生视角都会被彻底重塑。尤其当儿子长到一岁半时，Rainn 的内心被猛烈地震动了——因为这恰恰是他当年被亲生母亲抛弃时的年纪。 看着刚学会走路的幼童探索周围的世界，捡起一个杯子、摆弄几块积木、指着一棵树嘴里含糊不清地念叨着，Rainn 注意到一个极其微妙而动人的瞬间：孩子玩着玩着，脸上忽然会闪过一丝慌张，仿佛突然意识到“糟糕，我游得太远了，超出了安全范围”，随即立刻飞奔回母亲身边紧紧抱住妈妈。那一刻，母亲就是他的“安全大本营”（Home Base）。目睹这一幕让 Rainn 百感交集，甚至感到一阵心酸：他在同样只有一岁半的时候，这个至关重要的安全基地就被硬生生剥夺了。他感慨道，将一个生命带到这个世界上，责任绝不仅限于五年、十年，甚至不仅是成年前的十八年，而是一种关乎永恒的牵绊，它从骨子里改变了你在这个世界上的存在方式。 ### [47:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2826s) 父亲的代际创伤与不可替代的母爱 主持人 Steven Bartlett 指出，从那个一岁半幼童能够退回母亲怀抱的细节中，也能清楚地看到反面：如果在孩子回头的那一刻，身后空无一人，那对他的心理发展和人生观将会是何等毁灭性的打击。Rainn 对此深表赞同，并坦言即便当时还有父亲在身边作为第二选择，情况也极为糟糕。他的父亲自身就深陷被妻子抛弃的重创之中，早已在情感上全面封闭，即便在最理想的状态下也根本无法感知或表达情感。 Rainn 进一步揭开了家族创伤的深层根源：他的父亲童年时遭遇过极其惨烈的虐待，亲生母亲早逝，施暴的祖父不仅毒打他，还曾把父亲和姑姑单独反锁在房子里长达数周，生活悲惨得宛如查尔斯·狄更斯笔下的小说。在那种极度创伤的背景下，父亲恰恰是幼童建立情感依附时“最糟糕的人选”。Rainn 直言，如果当年自己的妻子 Holiday 发生意外离开，留下年幼的儿子 Walter 只能依赖他，或许情况不至于彻底崩溃，但世间没有任何东西能够替代一个婴儿与母亲之间那种最原始、最纯粹的情感联结。 ### [48:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2901s) 《办公室》的治愈力量与英美版本的荒谬论战 访谈随后切入 Rainn 演艺生涯中最具标志性的作品——美版《办公室》（The Office）。Steven Bartlett 激动地表示，这是他有史以来最爱的电视剧，甚至毫不犹豫地承认美版超越了原版英版。Steven 回忆起自己创业初期穷困潦倒的暗淡岁月：当时他身无分文，甚至沦落到去超市偷食物度日，用着一台必须自己用电烙铁焊接充电线的破旧笔记本电脑，因为他连 10 英镑买新充电器都拿不出来。在那整整两年里，《办公室》是他唯一反复观看的内容，正如 Rainn 在新书《Soul Boom》第十章所写关于“传播喜悦”的精神支柱一样，这部剧在最艰难的时刻给 Steven 带来了无尽的欢笑与慰藉。 Rainn 对这部剧能给全球无数观众带来平静、安详与灵感感到无比欣慰和感激。他感慨道，能在竞争残酷的好莱坞争取到一部电视剧的角色本就难如登天，能遇上一部能续订的长寿剧更是罕见，而能演一部既长寿又优质、甚至在完结十年后依然具有强大文化影响力的神作，简直就像是“买彩票中了头奖”。剧组成员起初就知道这部剧充满魔力，更有 Steve Carell 这样青史留名的喜剧天才坐镇，但从未料到它会产生如此深远的回响。谈及英国观众当年对美版翻拍的强烈敌意，Rainn 幽默地反驳道： - 英国媒体与观众当年的愤怒和恶评令人瞠目结舌，仿佛美国人要把原版胶片全烧了一样。 - 原版 Ricky Gervais 和 Stephen Merchant 的创意极为惊艳，美版只是把这份天才的构想从 12 集拓展到了整整 200 集。 - “英版《办公室》永远都在那里，如果不喜欢美版，大可不必看它。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 经典剧集《办公室》的成就阶梯 accDescr: 展示演员在电视剧行业中取得现象级文化成就所需要经历的极低概率层层晋升。 A["在好莱坞争取到电视剧角色"] --> B["剧集能够长期续订播出"] B --> C["剧集保持极高艺术水准与口碑"] C --> D["完结10年后依然保持巨大文化影响力<br/>（中头奖级别的现象级奇迹）"] ``` ### [51:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3105s) 名利顶峰的慢性不满与“如果-那么”的幸福谎言 然而，令人意外的是，在这部风靡全球的巅峰之作拍摄期间，Rainn 却度过了数年极度不快乐的时光。他在此前做客 Bill Maher 的播客时也曾公开承认这一点：“我当时大部分时间都很痛苦，因为总觉得这一切还不够。”彼时的他拿着数百万美元的丰厚片酬，扮演着电视史上最深入人心的角色之一 Dwight Schrute，多次获得艾美奖提名，与好莱坞最优秀的一帮演员和编剧朝夕相处，这本应远远超出他早年在西雅图郊区那个拉大管、下国际象棋、满脸粉刺的极客少年的所有狂野幻想。 但焦虑的不满却如影随形，他整天都在内心抱怨：“为什么我接不到更多电影？为什么我主演的电影票房惨败？为什么大制片厂不跟我签制作协议？为什么我不能在华纳兄弟拥有独立办公室？”他在无休止的欲望和焦虑中内耗，完全无法停下脚步享受这个不会再有第二遭的艺术奇迹。 Rainn 强调，他之所以反复在公开场合剖析自己的阴暗面，是因为 Dwight 是他在 38 岁、摸爬滚打 15 到 20 年后才获得的角色。在世俗标准里，他已经“大获成功”，却依然饱受不快乐的折磨。这赤裸裸地揭露了现代社会向大众兜售的弥天大谎——即所谓的“如果-那么”（if-then）幸福假说： - “只要我赚到特定数额的钱，我就能幸福。” - “只要我拥有某种头衔、名望、豪宅或加入顶级圈子，我就能获得圆满。” Rainn 毫不留情地怒斥这纯粹是一派胡言（crock of shit）。他澄清说自己绝非不知民间疾苦的“好莱坞特权精英”，他在职业生涯的前 15 年同样经历过无法支付账单的窘迫，深知金钱确实能卸下现实生活的沉重枷锁；但无数坐拥数百万财富的名流事实证明，财富一旦跨过基本生存线，与内在真正的充盈和幸福便毫无必然联系。 ### [55:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3320s) 活在当下与根治慢性不满的解药 Steven Bartlett 向 Rainn Wilson 提出了一个普遍存在于职场与生活中的现实困境：普通人在职场中不断推迟自己的幸福，刚拿到升职就立刻盘算着当上总监或首席执行官（CEO），总是把快乐寄托在未来某个遥远的目标之后。Steven 追问 Rainn，在《办公室》（The Office）名声大噪、身处事业巅峰之际，究竟需要别人对他说什么，才能让他从这种“推迟幸福”的思维泥潭中清醒过来，真正享受当下的美好？ Rainn 坦言，没有任何两三句话或一段大道理能瞬间点醒当时的他。唯一真正有效的，是有人能鼓励他重新踏上灵性探索的旅程。他指出，人真正拥有的唯有“当下”，唯有正在经历的“这口呼吸”；如果快乐总是寄托在 300 次、375 次甚至 3,000 次呼吸之后，人们就会百分之百错失生命本身的喜悦。 Rainn 提出，对抗佛教中所说的“苦”（Dukkha）、治愈这种慢性不满（chronic dissatisfaction）的最佳良药就是“感恩”（gratitude）。他反思道，如果当时的自己每天清晨都能列出十件感恩的事，生活会截然不同： - 感恩剧组伙伴：珍娜·费舍（Jenna Fischer）、约翰·卡拉辛斯基（John Krasinski）以及史蒂夫·卡瑞尔（Steve Carell）。 - 感恩物质与家庭：一份优厚的薪水、一个健康的儿子、一位美丽的妻子。 - 感恩职业成就：全世界热爱《办公室》的剧迷，以及自己倾注一生磨练演员技艺后，终于能够通过讲故事和带给大众欢笑来施展抱负。 Rainn 透露，自己被那种永不满足的心态死死困住了长达三到四年，直到重新找回感恩与灵性觉察，才最终走出了泥潭。 --- ### [57:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3451s) 感恩是否会磨灭野心与“自我的战争” Steven 提出了一个经典的思想交锋：心怀感恩、对现状感到满足，是否会削弱一个人的进取心和野心？那个永远渴望索取更多的 Rainn，和那个心怀感恩的 Rainn，究竟哪一个更有事业驱动力？ Rainn 承认这道难题没有非黑即白的答案。长期的慢性不满确实如同双刃剑——它不仅催生了他在灵性上的探索，同时也为他的职业野心注入了强烈的燃料，驱使他渴望获得更多机会、更多金钱、更渊博的知识与智慧。这种渴望既有健康积极的一面，也有不健康的一面。如今的他依然拥有宏大的雄心： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 驱动力模式转变对比 accDescr: 对比由自我驱动与由灵性服务驱动两种不同野心模式的流动与终点 subgraph EgoDriven["过去的驱动模式：自我与慢性不满"] A["慢性不满与匮乏感"] --> B["追求更多金钱、名誉与自我证明"] B --> C["陷入自我的战争（自我意志膨胀）"] C --> D["永远无法获得真正的幸福"] end subgraph SpiritDriven["当下的驱动模式：奉献与灵性对齐"] E["心怀感恩与当下觉察"] --> F["拓展 SoulPancake、演戏、导演与创业"] F --> G["最大化施展上帝赋予的才华与服务他人"] G --> H["获得福祉、使命感与内在丰盈"] end ``` Rainn 解释说，现在的他依然计划将数字内容品牌 SoulPancake 进一步做大做强，渴望继续演电影、当导演、创立新公司。但根本的差异在于驱动力的来源：如今他希望拿出自己最好的一面来服务社会、顺应上帝的旨意，最大化发挥上天赋予的天赋与才智，而非单纯为了满足个人“小我”（ego）。 他强调，自我的战争是人类最古老的灵性斗争，心理学家、先知和导师都曾反复阐述。只要一个人还陷在推崇自我、顺从个人私欲和追求小我满足的执念里，就永远不可能获得真正的快乐。当 Steven 问他现在是否感到快乐时，Rainn 回答自己确实拥有那种状态，但他更倾向于使用社会科学家常用的词汇——“福祉”（well-being）或“知足”（contentment），一种当生活与人生的深层意义、目标和愿景相契合时所感受到的同频共振。 --- ### [01:00:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3624s) 商业赞助环节：睡眠温控与移动办公 在此间歇，节目插入了两则产品体验与赞助信息： - **Eight Sleep 智能睡眠系统**：Steven 讲述了自己与该品牌创始人的交流，以及从 Matthew Walker 等顶尖睡眠专家那里学到的睡眠温控科学。人类在整夜的不同睡眠阶段需要动态变化的温度环境：入睡时床铺需要凉爽，随后进一步降低以促进深度睡眠，并在醒来前逐渐回温以模拟自然界的温度节律。Steven 为听众争取了 Pod Cover 床垫保护套 150 美元的专属折扣。 - **WeWork 共享办公空间**：Steven 回顾了自己从 19 岁创业至今常年在飞机、汽车后座、机场航站楼和火车上移动办公的经历。他分享了在曼彻斯特、伦敦、曼哈顿和洛杉矶等地使用 WeWork 的便利性，省去了寻找合适办公环境的焦虑，并提供了首六个月 All Access 会籍 25% 的优惠码。 --- ### [01:02:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3764s) 未竟的功课：地下室里做俯卧撑的“成瘾阴暗面” 回到对谈后，Steven 尖锐地指出，许多人出书或探讨哲学时，往往会向外界营造一种“我已经把一切都搞明白了、彻底解脱了”的完美假象。他询问 Rainn，在现实生活中究竟还在哪些方面经历着持续的挣扎。 Rainn 坦诚地卸下面具，承认自己远未达到完美： - **人际与家庭关系的功课**：他认为自己还可以成为一个更好的丈夫、更慈爱的父亲和更有同理心的朋友。由于在原生家庭中从未从父母那里学会如何表达联结与关爱，他不得不在成年后“重新抚育自己”（re-parenting），艰难学习最基本的人际相处之道。 - **服务社会的使命差距**：他感到自己本可以利用既有的资源和才华做更多事情，去治愈那些被社会边缘化的人群，为年轻一代带来能够改善生活的灵性工具。 - **膨胀的自我与自恋倾向**：Rainn 直言自己身上依然存在强烈的自恋与自我满足的冲动。 为了生动描绘这种心理机制，Rainn 引用了成瘾康复领域的一句名言：“**你的成瘾者人格正躲在地下室里做俯卧撑呢。**”即使表面上风平浪静，那个由成瘾、痛苦构成的阴暗面随时都在地下室积蓄力量，伺机冲上来抢夺人生的控制权。 Rainn 进一步引用心理学家卡尔·荣格（Carl Jung）的“阴影”（Shadow）理论，指出心理治疗与个人成长的核心任务就是去正视、接纳、拥抱并爱护自己的阴影面。他毫不避讳地剖析自己的内心深处同样存在着一个幽暗的阴影——那是一个充满成瘾特质、痛苦沮丧、自命不凡、自以为是且满脑子特权思想（entitled）的内在部分，正视它的存在是他每日修行的必经之路。 ### [01:05:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3908s) 与内心的阴暗面共处：腹语术木偶的隐喻 Rainn Wilson 谈到，每个人心中都有阴暗面（Shadow），而这本身就是他人格的一部分。他指出，想要摆脱这些特质，绝不是靠把阴暗面推得远远的、或者锁在衣柜里就能做到的；恰恰相反，必须遵循“让敌人靠得更近”的法则。他形象地模仿把自己的阴暗面抱在怀里挠肚皮的样子，戏谑地对它说话：“瞧瞧你，你这个刻薄的小瘾君子、自恋且自命不凡的混蛋……但我爱你，你就在我身边，你是属于我的一部分，我们得共同面对这一切，我已经把你牢牢掌控在想要的位置上了。” 在 Rainn 看来，当下许多主流观点试图宣称人可以通过心理治疗彻底“消灭”或摆脱阴暗面，但这根本行不通。正确的做法是把它放在自己的膝头，就像摆弄腹语术木偶（ventriloquist dummy）一样。这也正是他迷恋腹语术故事和恐怖片里木偶复活伤人桥段的原因——阴暗面恰似那个随时准备跳出来咬人的木偶。Rainn 随后当场模仿起木偶怪声怪气的声音嘲弄主持人 Steven Bartlett：“你好啊，Steven，去你的《CEO日记》，换件新T恤吧，你个笨蛋！”引得现场一片大笑，Steven 笑着直呼这绝对会成为本期节目的预告片切片。 --- ### [01:06:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3992s) 十二步戒瘾法与“臣服”的深层力量 话题转入风靡全球的“十二步项目”（12-Step Program）。主持人提到不仅是 Rainn，包括 Russell Brand 和已故的 Michael Mosley 等人都深入探讨过这套方案对促成人生转变的巨大价值。Rainn 赞叹这是个极佳的问题，并直言十二步疗法是“过去几百年中最深刻的精神运动之一”，拯救并重塑了数以百万计的人类生命。即便在戒瘾领域之外，其核心原则对现代社会中的每一个人都极具普适性与借鉴意义。 Rainn 剖析道，十二步项目的核心蕴含着一个美妙的灵性公案（spiritual koan）式的二元对立：**“唯有当我臣服、承认失败与自身的无能为力时，我反而获得了巨大的力量。”** 承认自己无法单打独斗、举起白旗，需要向脆弱敞开、寻求社群与更高力量（Higher Power）的托举，这种完全的交托反而带来了真正的坚韧。此外，十二步团体的运作架构也极具启发性——那是一个完全由同病相怜者组成的社群，实行仆人式领导与民主选举，宛如“由病患自行管理的疯人院”，没有任何专断的领袖；如果有人在十二步聚会中以发号施令的导师姿态自居，人们反而应当立即对其提高警惕。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 十二步项目的内在蜕变逻辑 accDescr: 展示从自我对抗到承认无能为力并获得集体与更高力量托举的蜕变过程 subgraph EgoTrap["小我的困局"] A["孤立的个体小我<br/>试图控制一切与他人"] --> B["陷入内在阻力与慢性不满"] end subgraph SurrenderProcess["臣服与交托"] B --> C["承认无能为力<br/>举起白旗放弃盲目控制"] C --> D["展现脆弱并寻求社群互助"] C --> E["向更高力量敞开与保持谦卑"] end subgraph NewStrength["新生的力量"] D --> F["打破分离幻觉<br/>重获真正的清醒与坚韧"] E --> F end ``` --- ### [01:09:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4149s) 现代社会的傲慢与小我的瓦解 Steven 结合 Russell Brand 总结的“觉知、相信能改变、向其臣服”三部曲展开讨论。他指出，现代社会极度崇尚个人主义与物质主义，人们越来越孤立地生活在“四堵白墙”之内，盲目迷信单凭一己之力就能摆平所有问题。Steven 坦陈，自己在面对伴侣极为灵性的生活方式时，学会臣服并顺应对方，反而给自己的生活带来了极大的价值与平静。很多时候，当一个人陷入深度的不满与阻力时，坦然说出一句“我需要帮助，我不知道答案”，恰恰就是治愈自我的良药。 Rainn 进一步阐述，在臣服的背后，是对当今时代最稀缺品质——“谦卑”（Humility）的回归： - **历史最低的谦卑度**：全球 80 亿人身处现代文明，但人们对未知的敬畏与谦卑感几乎处于人类历史的最低点。 - **小我与臣服的对立**：小我（Ego）的本质就是企图操纵结果、掌控他人；只要人们还在执着于控制外界，痛苦和不幸就不可避免。Steven 开玩笑说伴侣如果去公社生活或崇拜蘑菇自己也得接受，并打趣道“她本来就在这么做”。 - **消解“自我”的幻觉**：各大古老信仰传统的核心都在揭示“万物互联互通”的真理，而小我执着于“我”与万物的割裂。臣服正是击碎这种“独立自我”幻相的关键一步。 - **迅速认错的处世智慧**：Rainn 特别强调了十二步法则中的一条具体信条——“一旦犯错，立即痛快承认”（When we are wrong, promptly admit it）。他强调重点在于“及时迅速”（promptly），而不是拖拖拉拉。无论是政治家、CEO、夫妻伴侣还是父母子女，只要能做到“错了就赶快诚恳道歉”，整个世界都会变得美好得多。 --- ### [01:12:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4370s) 陪伴近四十载的灵魂伴侣：Holiday Reinhorn Steven 提到 Rainn 的妻子 Holiday Reinhorn。两人早在 1985 年的表演课上相识，相识相伴将近四十年，直到 1990 至 1991 年左右 Holiday 搬到纽约，两人才正式确立恋爱关系。Steven 感叹自己 1992 年才出生，这段感情跨越的时间比他的整个人生还要长。 当被问及妻子对自己意味着什么时，Rainn 动情地笑言：“你这是想把我弄哭对吧？”他坦率地倾诉道，Holiday 就是自己的一切： - **包容彼此的至暗时刻**：Holiday 见证并包容了他最糟糕的一面——包括他脾气暴躁失控像个混蛋的时刻、深陷抑郁泥潭的日子，以及焦虑彻底吞噬理智的艰难岁月。 - **坦承婚姻中的起伏跌宕**：Rainn 强调，没有哪段长久婚姻是一帆风顺的，公开承认婚姻中的起伏对大众而言非常重要。 - **人生最坚实的依靠与智者**：他坚定地称妻子为自己的灵魂伴侣，若没有她的指引、爱与支持，自己绝不可能取得今天的任何成就。Rainn 感慨道，尽管这听起来像陈词滥调，但句句发自肺腑；Holiday 是他所认识的人中最具深刻智慧的存在，甚至比任何人都要了解他，以至于他每天都会向妻子表达深深的感激。 - **面对童年创伤的共鸣**：当谈到爱情的本质时，Rainn 透露 Holiday 同样经历过非常痛苦的童年创伤，经历过父母极为棘手糟糕的家庭变故，在各自的人生旅程中都曾带着深深的创痛前行。 ### [01:14:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4487s) 像外星人般学习去爱：妻子霍乐迪与育儿的艺术 雷恩·威尔森谈到自己的妻子霍乐迪·赖因霍恩（Holiday Reinhorn）时，坦言爱与温情对她而言是极其自然流淌的天性，但对他自己来说却需要付出大量后天的努力。霍乐迪拥有一颗博大的心，能够毫无保留、自然而然地去爱他们的儿子、身边的人以及动物。雷恩在自己的书中曾用过一个生动的比喻：由于童年经历异常破碎，他成长过程中甚至无法理解正常人是如何互动的，只能像个科幻电影里的“外星人”一样，躲在一旁暗中观察人类行为并加以模仿。比如在学校食堂里，他会仔细看别人走进来打招呼说“嘿哥们儿，最近怎么样？周末过得好吗？见到你真高兴”，然后在心里默默记下“原来正常人是这样交流的”，接着生硬地走上前去依葫芦画瓢复制这些话，试图融入人类群体。霍乐迪身上天然具备的温暖与从容（grace），成了雷恩学习如何去爱、如何生活得优雅温和的榜样。 主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特对此产生了强烈的共鸣，感慨自己与伴侣的关系亦是如此。斯蒂芬坦承自己也是通过模仿伴侣，才学会了如何真正去爱一个人——观察她如何毫无芥蒂地道歉、如何坦率承认错误、如何毫无防备地表达真实感受。雷恩十分赞同，并表示自己连如何为人父母都是从妻子身上学到的。谈及他们即将升入大学的十八岁半儿子沃尔特（Walter），雷恩笑称自己总有一种冲动想要长篇大论地训导、过度反应或者强行发表自以为必须说的道理。每当雷恩正准备开启说教模式时，霍乐迪只需在旁边不动声色地递给他一个极其细微的眼神和手势，雷恩就会立刻心领神会地改口：“……呃，沃尔特，我们回头再聊这个。”妻子就像是他为人父母过程中的“指挥家”（conductor），时刻调控着家庭沟通的节奏与分寸。 - **外星人视角**：因童年情感匮乏，雷恩青少年时期只能通过机械模仿同龄人在食堂的客套问候，来学习基本的人际互动。 - **育儿默契**：在面对儿子沃尔特（Walter）时，雷恩常倾向于严苛说教，全靠妻子霍乐迪充当行为刹车与“育儿指挥家”。 --- ### [01:17:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4647s) 日记扉页的提问：反思霸凌与干预的三步法 按照节目的收尾传统，前一位做客的嘉宾会在《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）手账本中为下一位未知的访客留下一道问题。斯蒂芬辨认着手写字迹读出了这道问题：“你能否回忆起一次你目睹他人遭受糟糕对待、本可以干预却选择了袖手旁观的经历？如果能回到那一刻，你会做出怎样的改变？” 雷恩称赞这是一个极其深刻的问题。他随即分享了自己近期阅读关于应对霸凌的“三步干预法”，指出普通人往往误以为面对霸凌只有“挺身对抗”这一步，但完整的干预应当包含层层递进的三个维度： ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 三步反霸凌干预流程图 accDescr: 展示应对霸凌行为的三个核心步骤：制止霸凌者、关怀受害者、向权威报告。 subgraph S1["第一步：正面干预"] A["制止霸凌者<br/>发声明确表态'这不合适'<br/>避免无谓肢体冲突"] end subgraph S2["第二步：情感修复"] B["关怀被霸凌者<br/>提供同理心、安慰与陪伴<br/>修复心理创伤"] end subgraph S3["第三步：制度介入"] C["向权威报告<br/>向管理层或学校通报<br/>打破恶性权力结构"] end A --> B B --> C ``` 回顾自己在20世纪70年代和80年代的求学经历，雷恩感慨当时的小学、初中和高中充斥着无休止的霸凌、嘲弄、贬低与等级压迫。雷恩自嘲道，自己当年完全是个彻头彻尾的“书呆子”（nerd），绝无可能去霸凌别人；但他真正感到愧疚和遗憾的，是当年自己严重缺乏情感工具与勇气，未能在他人遭受欺凌后给予及时的同理心、抚慰与支持，也没有主动向老师或校方权威报告。他同时也补充道，虽然现代社会有时对霸凌的界定可能有些过于泛化（将善意的玩笑或正常的批评也归为霸凌），但在面对真正的恶意侵害时，未能践行这三步法始终是他回望青春期时的一大憾事。斯蒂芬随后透露，留下这个问题的神秘前嘉宾自身曾深受其害，目前正在撰写一本关于“成人霸凌”（adult bullying，包括职场霸凌与成年人社交霸凌）的新书。 --- ### [01:20:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4836s) 跨越万里的深远影响：《办公室》、SoulPancake 与《Soul Boom》 访谈临近尾声，斯蒂芬向雷恩表达了由衷的敬意与谢意，坦言雷恩在其人生中有过两段极其深远的影响： 1. **《办公室》（The Office）中的德怀特·舒鲁特（Dwight Schrute）**：斯蒂芬认为雷恩的演技堪称史上最伟大的剧集表演之一，将德怀特刻画得入木三分；令人称奇的是，能够将如此荒诞偏执的角色演绎到极致的演员，笔下却能写出充满精神洞察力的深刻著作，这种反差恰恰印证了雷恩作为演员与思想者的深厚功底。 2. **数字媒体平台 SoulPancake**：早年雷恩联合创办的这一平台恰好在斯蒂芬年轻迷茫、苦思人生终极哲学命题（甚至包括“狗是否有灵魂”等探讨）的阶段出现，为他提供了宝贵的思想庇护所与社区连接。 斯蒂芬动情地表示，雷恩的作品跨越了上万英里，悄然拨动并改变了他的人生轨迹，最终促成了今天这场对谈。斯蒂芬还高度评价了雷恩的新书《灵魂繁荣：为何我们需要一场精神革命》（Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution），称赞该书举重若轻，毫无晦涩的高门槛，而是“牵着读者的手走过精神桥梁”，即便是开卡车的蓝领司机也能从中汲取治愈的智慧。 面对斯蒂芬发自肺腑的赞美，雷恩在真诚致谢之余，不失时机地展现了他标志性的冷面幽默：“非常感谢你承认这一点——你今天拥有的一切，全都归功于我！”引得全场大笑，为整场深邃而真挚的对话画上了轻松幽默的句号。 --- ### [01:23:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4984s) 赞助故事：斯蒂芬与 Huel 的结缘 在节目尾声的赞助环节，斯蒂芬分享了他与代餐健康品牌 Huel 的合作渊源。数年前在办公室里，一位名叫迈克尔（Michael）的同事身穿印有“Huel”字样的T恤走过，其设计美感和奇特的名字引起了斯蒂芬的好奇。迈克尔解释称这是一个专注于全营养、极致便捷且兼顾地球环保的食品品牌，并在次日给斯蒂芬的工位上放了一瓶样品。斯蒂芬表示，自己平时极度重视营养摄入的全面均衡，但繁忙快节奏的生活常使饮食妥协；Huel 恰好提供了一种可靠、实惠且环保的营养解决方案，他也因此从一名忠实用户最终转变成为了该公司的早期投资者。 ## Notable quotes > [06:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=366s) 如果我拥有一个幸福美满、心理平衡的童年，我不知道我的职业会是什么，但我绝不可能成为一名演员，更不可能成为一名成功的演员。 — 雷恩·威尔森 > [06:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=366s) 摆在你面前的选择很简单：要么去死，要么去做喜剧。 — 雷恩·威尔森 > [26:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=1573s) 这不是他。这不是我父亲。这只是承载我父亲的容器。罗伯特·威尔森和他那颗美丽的心灵、他的活力、创造力与光芒已经不在这里了。这个身体只是一具躯壳、一个容器、一个虚拟化身。 — 雷恩·威尔森 > [26:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=1573s) 我们不是拥有精神体验的人类，而是拥有人类体验的精神存在。 — 皮埃尔·德日进 > [33:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2024s) 雷恩，这一切全都是杂音。全都是无谓的噪音。你必须把你生活里的这些杂音彻底清理出去。 — 大卫·冯·安肯 > [40:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=2441s) 灵性的本质定义，就是对生命中“非物质维度”的关注。 — 雷恩·威尔森 > [51:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3105s) 我当时大部分时间都很痛苦，因为总觉得这一切还不够。 — 雷恩·威尔森 > [01:02:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3764s) 你的成瘾者人格正躲在地下室里做俯卧撑呢。 — 雷恩·威尔森 > [01:06:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=3992s) 唯有当我臣服、承认失败与自身的无能为力时，我反而获得了巨大的力量。 — 雷恩·威尔森 > [01:09:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4149s) 一旦犯错，立即痛快承认。 — 雷恩·威尔森 > [01:20:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88&t=4836s) 非常感谢你承认这一点——你今天拥有的一切，全都归功于我！ — 雷恩·威尔森 ## Mentioned Rainn Wilson（雷恩·威尔森）, Steven Bartlett（史蒂芬·巴特利特）, Dwight Schrute（杜怀特·舒鲁特）, 《办公室》（The Office）, 巴哈伊信仰（Baha'i Faith）, Chase Jarvis（蔡斯·贾维斯）, Gabor Maté（嘉保·马特）, Arthur Brooks（阿瑟·布鲁克斯）, Jim Carrey（金·凯瑞）, Robin Williams（罗宾·威廉姆斯）, SoulPancake, 《笑事一桩》（Laughing Matters）, Denny's, Elvis Costello（埃尔维斯·科斯特洛）, Woody Allen（伍迪·艾伦）, 《Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution》, Robert Wilson（罗伯特·威尔森）, Pierre Teilhard de Chardin（皮埃尔·德日进）, David Von Ancken（大卫·冯·安肯）, Henry David Thoreau（亨利·戴维·梭罗）, Holiday Reinhorn（霍乐迪·赖因霍恩）, Walter Wilson（沃尔特·威尔森）, Steve Carell（史蒂夫·卡瑞尔）, Ricky Gervais（瑞奇·热维斯）, Stephen Merchant（斯蒂芬·默切特）, Jenna Fischer（珍娜·费舍）, John Krasinski（约翰·卡拉辛斯基）, Eight Sleep, WeWork, Carl Jung（卡尔·荣格）, Russell Brand（拉塞尔·布兰德）, Michael Mosley（迈克尔·莫斯利）, 十二步项目（12-Step Program）, Huel ## Video description From a childhood in the jungle to Dunder Mifflin and fame, this is the Rainn Wilson you don’t know. 00:00 Intro 01:35 Growing up around missionaries in the jungle 03:12 I was filled with depression & anxiety 05:33 What have you learned from childhood trauma? 10:06 Family dramas: “I had 0 tools to navigate my emotions" 15:08 How did acting find you? 18:24 What triggered your mental health to spiral? 25:41 The impact of your dad's passing 32:39 The big lesson I learned from the passing of my best friend 40:08 Why should people try spirituality? 44:46 The birth of my son changed my life 47:47 The Office 54:45 What would be the cure for chronic dissatisfaction? 57:00 Does being grateful stop you from having a drive? 59:52 Ads 01:02:11 What do you struggle with? 01:05:59 The 12-step program that helped me & millions 01:12:20 What does your wife mean to you? 01:16:56 The last guest's question You can purchase Rainn’s most recent book, ‘Soul Boom: Why We Need a Spiritual Revolution’, here: https://amzn.to/4785yyN Follow Rainn: Instagram: https://bit.ly/462rF99 Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Eb6fdN *This interview was recorded BEFORE the SAG strike* My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' pre order link: https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Join this channel to get access to perks: https://bit.ly/3Dpmgx5 Follow me:  Instagram: http://bit.ly/3nIkGAZ Twitter: http://bit.ly/3ztHuHm Linkedin: https://bit.ly/41Fl95Q Telegram: http://bit.ly/3nJYxST Sponsors:  Eightsleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/uk/steven/ - CODE: STEVEN (save $150 on the Pod Cover) Wework: https://we.co/ceoworks Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=DeMv_qeCV88)

[6:06] 雷恩·威尔森: 如果我拥有一个幸福美满、心理平衡的童年，我不知道我的职业会是什么，但我绝不可能成为一名演员，更不可能成为一名成功的演员。 [6:06] 雷恩·威尔森: 摆在你面前的选择很简单：要么去死，要么去做喜剧。 [26:13] 雷恩·威尔森: 这不是他。这不是我父亲。这只是承载我父亲的容器。罗伯特·威尔森和他那颗美丽的心灵、他的活力、创造力与光芒已经不在这里了。这个身体只是一具躯壳、一个容器、一个虚拟化身。 [26:13] 皮埃尔·德日进: 我们不是拥有精神体验的人类，而是拥有人类体验的精神存在。 [33:44] 大卫·冯·安肯: 雷恩，这一切全都是杂音。全都是无谓的噪音。你必须把你生活里的这些杂音彻底清理出去。 [40:41] 雷恩·威尔森: 灵性的本质定义，就是对生命中“非物质维度”的关注。 [51:45] 雷恩·威尔森: 我当时大部分时间都很痛苦，因为总觉得这一切还不够。 [62:44] 雷恩·威尔森: 你的成瘾者人格正躲在地下室里做俯卧撑呢。 [66:32] 雷恩·威尔森: 唯有当我臣服、承认失败与自身的无能为力时，我反而获得了巨大的力量。 [69:09] 雷恩·威尔森: 一旦犯错，立即痛快承认。 [80:36] 雷恩·威尔森: 非常感谢你承认这一点——你今天拥有的一切，全都归功于我！

[1:35] Rainn Wilson: Here was this abandoned kind of toddler kid living in literally the jungle... and that's how I grew up. [5:33] Rainn Wilson: Comedy is what you plug in to shift your perspective away from pain and trauma... It's like, here's your choice: do you kill yourself, or do comedy? [10:06] Rainn Wilson: She said, 'Rainn, you seem very tightly wound... How is your heart?' And I just started sobbing. I mean, it was pretty unsightly at the Denny's... waiting for the Grand Slam breakfast. [15:08] Rainn Wilson: All of a sudden, people were patting me on the back... and all of these like cute girls from junior year were like, 'Will you come sit with us at our lunch table?' And I was like, 'All right, I'm in... Screw the bassoon. Screw the chess team. I'm in.' [26:13] Rainn Wilson: This isn't him. This isn't my dad. This is the vessel that carried my dad. [26:13] Father Teilhard de Chardin: We are not human beings having a spiritual experience. We are spiritual beings having a human experience [33:11] David Von Ancken: Rainn, it's just static. It's all just static. You've got to get the static out of your life. [37:27] Rainn Wilson: my reality is not my thoughts. My reality is not my feelings. My reality is not even just my body [51:46] Rainn Wilson: How come I can't get more movies? [62:11] Rainn Wilson: your addict is in the basement doing push-ups. [62:11] Rainn Wilson: Get a new t-shirt, idiot! [71:32] Rainn Wilson: when we are wrong, promptly admit it. [77:27] Previous Guest: Can you recall a time when you observed someone being treated badly and could have intervened but didn't? What might you have done differently? [80:36] Rainn Wilson: Thank you for acknowledging the fact that you owe everything to me!

[0:00] We're going to talk about The Office, I [0:01] promise. Stick around, folks. Rainn [0:04] Wilson Actor, writer, producer you know [0:07] as Dwight Schrute, assistant regional [0:09] manager. One of the most iconic [0:10] characters [0:11] in TV history. [0:12] HOLD ON, MICHAEL. I AM COMING. [0:15] I EXPERIENCED A LOT of pain in my life. [0:18] Neglect, abuse, abandoned, and then with [0:21] anxiety and depression and addiction, I [0:23] remember getting these anxiety attacks [0:25] that would leave me shaking on the floor [0:27] and sweating, and I thought I was dying. [0:30] Waking up at 3:00 in the morning, why [0:32] should I keep living? But, this is the [0:34] curious thing. I'm grateful for it. [0:36] There's a reason why so many comedians [0:39] come from painful backgrounds because [0:42] comedy shifts your perspective away from [0:45] pain and trauma. Here's your choice, do [0:46] you kill yourself or do comedy? And that [0:49] was my path. It's my greatest dream come [0:51] true. You said when I was in The Office, [0:53] I spent several years mostly unhappy [0:55] because it wasn't enough. I wanted more [0:56] opportunities, I wanted more money, and [0:58] as long as we want to promote the go [1:00] satisfaction, we'll never be happy. We [1:03] all have a shadow, and it's always [1:05] there. It's self-important and righteous [1:07] and entitled, but I'm not going to get [1:10] rid of those aspects of myself by [1:11] keeping that shadow at arm's length. You [1:13] need to embrace and accept and love [1:16] one's shadow. Sit the shadow on the lap, [1:18] almost like a ventriloquist dummy. [1:20] Hello. You, Irene, a CEO. Get a new [1:24] T-shirt, idiot. [1:26] That's a wrap. [1:29] I think this is fascinating. I looked at [1:32] the back end of our YouTube channel, and [1:34] it says that since this channel started, [1:36] 69.9% [1:38] of you that watch it frequently haven't [1:40] yet hit the subscribe button. So, I have [1:42] a favor to ask you. If you've ever [1:44] watched this channel and enjoyed the [1:45] content, if you're enjoying this episode [1:46] right now, please can I ask a small [1:48] favor? Please hit the subscribe button. [1:49] Helps this channel more than I can [1:50] explain, and I promise, if you do that, [1:53] to return the favor, we will make the [1:55] show better and better and better and [1:58] better and better. That's a promise I'm [1:59] willing to make you if you hit the [2:00] subscribe button. Do we have a deal? [2:03] [Music] [2:09] Let's start with your contacts. Um [2:11] I always think the the earliest years [2:13] are the most important. So, could you [2:15] take me back to your earliest contacts [2:16] and give me the [2:18] factors that I need to understand to [2:19] understand you? Sure. Uh couple of key [2:23] pieces in my background that have made [2:26] me who I am and uh led me to lead the [2:29] life that I live uh are [2:32] my mom uh [2:34] took off [2:36] when I was a year and a half. [2:38] I lived with my with my dad, [2:41] and we were members of the Baha'i faith, [2:45] uh which in a nutshell is the newest of [2:48] the world's religions. Uh there's about [2:51] 6 million Baha'is around the globe. It's [2:53] the second most widespread religion. So, [2:56] wherever you go in the world, there's [2:57] going to be Baha'is. You know, you go to [2:58] Mongolia or Thailand or, you know, [3:01] Botswana or whatever, there's going to [3:02] be Baha'i communities. And after my dad [3:07] had been kind of essentially abandoned [3:10] or felt abandoned, they got divorced, uh [3:12] we moved to the jungles of Nicaragua [3:15] when I was 3 years old. [3:17] Here was this abandoned kind of toddler [3:20] kid living in the literally the jungle. [3:24] Uh [3:26] and my dad was an abstract painter and [3:29] science fiction writer and Baha'i, and [3:33] uh [3:33] that's that's how I grew up. And then, [3:35] when it was kind of around kindergarten [3:37] time, first grade time, we moved back to [3:39] Washington state. [3:41] And um [3:43] those are some key pieces, yeah. [3:45] In your 40s, you started to look back at [3:47] your childhood um and understand [3:50] I heard this in an interview you did, I [3:51] think with [3:53] Chase Jarvis? Yeah. [3:54] On his show. And one of the things you [3:56] said is [3:57] when I look back at my childhood, it was [3:58] filled with depression and anxiety that [4:00] you probably didn't It seems like you [4:02] didn't realize at the time, but [4:04] hindsight's given you that clarity. [4:06] Yeah. What were the hallmarks of that? [4:07] What were the symptoms of that? And what [4:09] Do you Do you have any understanding of [4:10] the causes of that at such a young age? [4:13] Yes. Uh 22 years of therapy has given me [4:17] a lot of insights into the causes of [4:19] that. So, [4:21] you know, you've got an abandoned [4:22] toddler, that that'll that'll [ __ ] you [4:24] up. Um I don't know if I can swear on [4:27] your podcast. All right. Um [4:31] Do uh do Brits swear? Mm. [4:34] Yeah. Yeah. The funny ones. Uh and then [4:38] um [4:39] you know, it was this weird kind of uh [4:43] gaslighting mindfuck cuz I just spent 5 [4:46] minutes describing the Baha'i faith, [4:48] right? And this these beautiful ideas [4:50] and prayers and meditations and about [4:52] world peace and finding love and [4:54] connection and service. [4:56] And then, in my family, my dad remarried [5:01] uh my stepmom, uh who pretty much raised [5:04] me, and they lived in a loveless [5:07] marriage, a hollow, empty marriage. So, [5:10] I come back from the jungles of [5:11] Nicaragua at 5 or 6, my dad's remarried, [5:14] we're living in suburban Seattle in [5:16] Washington state, and we are going to [5:20] all these Baha'i meetings, we're [5:21] singing, we're doing Kumbaya, we're [5:23] holding hands, we're praying, we're [5:24] meditating, we're reading holy scripture [5:26] from all over the world, and talking [5:28] about love, and yet here's this loveless [5:32] shell of a house. So, that's what I grew [5:35] up in. So, you know, addiction is [5:39] something that I've I've struggled with. [5:41] I've struggled with depression, I've [5:43] struggled with anxiety. [5:44] Uh I've uh struggled on a lot of [5:47] different uh [5:48] levels in my life, a lot of uh [5:51] alienation and uh [5:53] it's born of this petri dish that I grew [5:56] up in. Maybe I was also wired for it, [5:58] you know, I have I have alcoholics that [6:00] run on both sides of my family for [6:01] generations, but uh [6:04] that'll that'll mess you up. What have [6:07] you learned about the nature of [6:08] childhood trauma and how delicate [6:10] children are? I've learned so much from [6:12] speaking to people on this podcast about [6:14] it and how, [6:15] you know, it's [6:17] if I listen to too many of these [6:18] episodes, I might be scared to be a [6:19] parent because it's so interesting how [6:21] such a small interpretations can leave [6:24] really [6:25] um lasting impressions on a child about [6:27] the nature of the world. I sat with [6:28] Gabor Maté, and he's talked about how [6:30] children are basically narcissists, and [6:32] how they interpret everything as about [6:33] them. So, there's an argument over [6:35] there, a baby will think it's it's about [6:38] the baby. But, what have you learned [6:40] about through your years of therapy, but [6:41] also your own experiences? [6:44] Well, I experienced a lot of pain in my [6:47] life [6:48] and a lot of suffering uh with anxiety [6:51] and depression and addiction, and as I [6:55] kind of dove into recovery and to the [6:57] therapeutic process, I can pin that [7:00] squarely on a lot of, you know, gross [7:03] imbalances and trauma that I suffered as [7:06] a child. So, [7:08] there's that. [7:10] Um we all have that to some degree, and [7:13] it's important to excavate and honor [7:16] uh the pain that we went through and the [7:19] and the lies that we were told, the [7:21] gaslighting we might have [7:23] undergone. Um there's there's religious [7:26] trauma that we undergo as well. There's [7:28] all kinds of different traumas that we [7:30] suffer. And this is the this is the [7:33] curious thing. [7:35] I'm grateful for it because, you know [7:37] what? [7:38] If I had had a happy, well-balanced [7:40] childhood, [7:41] I, you know, I don't know what my career [7:44] would have been, but it certainly [7:45] wouldn't have been an actor, and it [7:47] certainly wouldn't have been a [7:48] successful actor. So, these [7:51] these confluences of of pain and and [7:54] difficulty and and abuse and neglect, um [7:58] they caused me a lot of suffering later [8:00] on, but at the same time, they caused me [8:03] to be driven to try and be the best [8:06] version of myself. They set me on a [8:08] spiritual path [8:09] uh to really deeply explore the world's [8:13] uh spiritual traditions and to try and [8:16] connect with my higher power and to go [8:18] on a journey of self-discovery and then [8:20] to take what I've learned and to share [8:21] that with others, and they [8:23] they made me funny. [8:25] So, there's a really interesting [8:28] thing I heard uh Dr. Arthur Brooks from [8:32] Harvard University, who you should have [8:33] on the show, [8:34] uh speak about. Uh and he talked about [8:38] how the opposite of pain and trauma is [8:42] is humor. He's He was saying, like, for [8:44] instance, if you're feeling uh [8:47] depressed, let's say, [8:49] we all know you fill that with [8:50] gratitude. And when you have a gratitude [8:52] journal and you share gratitude, [8:54] experience gratitude, meditate on [8:56] gratitude, [8:57] it the other stuff evaporates when you [8:59] when you shift your focus and your [9:01] perspective to what you're grateful for, [9:04] what brings you hope and joy and purpose [9:06] and meaning, even if it's a small thing, [9:08] like, you know, this delicious cup of [9:09] tea right here. So, [9:12] the same [9:13] uh mechanism works in comedy. That and [9:18] there's a reason why so many comedians [9:20] come from painful backgrounds because [9:24] comedy is what you plug in to shift your [9:28] perspective away from pain and trauma. [9:30] Just like gratitude takes you away from [9:33] from depression. So, you'll see time and [9:36] time again these amazing, [9:38] you know, [9:39] the great comedians of the age, you [9:42] know, and how much suffering they [9:44] underwent in their lives, [9:46] but [9:48] comedy became the the necessary [9:52] uh thing to plug in to their perspective [9:55] in order to carry forward. It's like [9:58] uh here's your choice. You kill yourself [10:01] or do comedy. [10:02] And um [10:04] and then they do comedy and and you [10:06] know, you think about so many of of the [10:07] great ones. Uh Jim Carrey, you think [10:10] about Robin Williams. They talk about [10:12] mental health and comedy. We did a for [10:14] Soul Pancake, we did a documentary um [10:16] called Laughing Matters about the [10:18] intersection of comedy and mental [10:20] health. And so in this sense, too, I'm [10:23] grateful for what I went through because [10:25] I wouldn't be here today having this [10:27] incredible conversation with you had I [10:29] not gone through that [10:32] those those difficulties, that neglect, [10:34] that abuse, and that gaslighting that I [10:37] underwent as a kid. When you say the [10:39] word abuse, you mean the gaslighting? [10:44] Yeah, you know, I don't want to get into [10:48] stories. There was, you know, there was [10:50] some there was [10:51] there was lots of different kinds of [10:53] abuse. Yeah. Yeah, so. If I'd if I'd met [10:57] you 15, 16 years old, who would I who [10:59] would be the man that I met at that [11:01] point? When your mother came back into [11:02] your life, you said you needed her at [11:03] that point. At 15 or 16, I was uh gawky [11:07] and self-hating and um [11:11] uh [11:12] innocent and completely cut off from my [11:15] emotions and had my uh dad and stepmom [11:19] had zero emotional tools. Uh the only [11:22] kind of expression of emotion that I [11:23] experienced in my household was rage. [11:26] And uh and then either rage or like [11:30] again, these spiritual Baha'i gatherings [11:32] where we were singing and praying and [11:34] meditating. So [11:35] it was [11:36] um but the idea of [11:39] you know [11:40] sadness, frustration, disappointment, [11:43] uh [11:44] all these quote-unquote negative [11:45] emotions and how to navigate them. There [11:47] were [11:48] I had zero tools. [11:50] So I'll never forget sitting down with [11:52] one of the first meetings with my mom. [11:55] And we I was at a Denny's restaurant in [11:57] Yakima, Washington. [11:59] And uh and she said [12:02] Rain, you seem [12:04] very tightly wound. [12:06] What's what's going on? How is your [12:08] heart? [12:10] And I just started sobbing. I just [12:12] started [12:14] bawling. I mean [12:17] it was pretty unsightly at the at the [12:18] Denny's. Um [12:21] uh waiting for the Grand Slam breakfast. [12:23] And um [12:24] there's a corporate sponsor for you, [12:26] potential. [12:27] Uh [12:28] and just like the the kind of crying of [12:30] the [12:31] kind of the heaving sobs. And that's [12:35] what I'm talking about. That's the kind [12:36] of connection that I needed. Like [12:37] finally, someone was asking me what was [12:39] in my heart, you know? [12:42] And [12:43] that began a kind of a process of [12:47] having conversations about human [12:49] emotions [12:51] um [12:52] that I was so ignorant of. Um that we're [12:55] all so ignorant of. [12:57] And uh it helped me immensely. [13:00] When you said that that the the only [13:02] emotion you understood was like rage and [13:05] then this real [13:06] happiness at the spiritual gatherings [13:10] it made sense, the gaslighting, because [13:11] it's such a confusing message to send a [13:14] young person. It's a this this [13:16] juxtaposition between like [13:18] and [13:18] uh Yeah. [13:20] Yeah. [13:22] In fact, I remember I remember times [13:25] uh and I don't really blame my stepmom [13:27] for this because my dad was not a good [13:29] husband to her and uh there was a lot [13:32] that was out of balance and and he could [13:35] be incredibly narcissistic and [13:37] um but I remember having we would have a [13:40] Baha'i gathering, let's say, at our [13:42] house and people were going to come over [13:43] and we were going to pray or we were [13:44] going to study holy writings or whatever [13:46] people do at Baha'i gatherings. And uh [13:49] they would have a fight and she would be [13:51] raging in the kitchen and slam dishes [13:53] down and break the dishes and they would [13:55] be fighting and then [13:58] ding-dong, people would come over like, [14:00] "Hi, I brought flowers and here's a [14:02] here's some cookies." And and they would [14:04] come in and my stepmom would then march [14:06] across the living room gong gong gong [14:08] gong gong to the bedroom door and go "So [14:11] bam!" and slam the bedroom door and the [14:14] people would be there in the doorway and [14:15] my dad would go [14:18] "Come on in. Thanks so much for coming." [14:21] And there was never any kind of [14:23] uh [14:24] you know [14:26] you know, acknowledging what had just [14:28] happened. And that was And so for an [14:30] 8-year-old, 9-year-old, 10-year-old [14:31] being in that milieu, you're like "What [14:33] the hell is going on? Is this how people [14:35] act? Is this how we're supposed to act? [14:37] We have all these emotions, but we don't [14:38] talk about them and [14:41] and then we go and we and we pray [14:43] together?" So, you know, this led me to [14:46] a very long period of time where I was [14:48] completely alienated from my faith in my [14:51] in my 20s and um I didn't want anything [14:54] to do with religion or spirituality, [14:56] certainly not morality. Um cuz I just [14:59] saw the hypocrisy in it. And [15:03] that's when I really started undergoing [15:07] uh [15:08] a spiritual crisis, a mental health [15:10] crisis. Things started breaking down for [15:13] me. And that's when I decided to kind of [15:17] re-examine these ideas as a potential [15:19] way out, as a potential path forward for [15:21] my own transformation, for my personal [15:24] healing. And and I was ultimately able [15:27] to come back to the religion of my youth [15:29] and find great [15:31] peace and solace and meaning in it um [15:35] after a long journey uh through my 20s [15:38] and early 30s. [15:39] That trauma and experience from your [15:41] youth, how does that play into you [15:44] becoming an actor? Because you said you [15:46] wouldn't have been you're grateful [15:48] because you don't think you would have [15:49] been [15:50] an actor or the actor that you are [15:51] without that experience. What is the wh [15:55] I'm trying to figure out where acting [15:56] fit into that. You talked about [15:58] comedians using comedy as a as kind of [16:01] like a life raft away from their pain. [16:03] Why was acting the thing that found [16:05] Rain? [16:07] I don't know and there's the genetic [16:08] component as well that my birth mother [16:10] was also an actor and interested in [16:12] acting. I don't know exactly um even [16:16] before I thought like [16:18] "Oh, you could be an actor or you could [16:20] make a living in an actor or you could [16:22] train as an actor." Like I didn't even [16:24] know like I wanted to do that, but it's [16:26] like whatever that is is magical and [16:29] amazing and I was drawn to it like a [16:32] magnet. So [16:34] I don't know and then, you know, I I [16:36] took my first acting class. [16:38] Um we had moved to Chicago from Seattle [16:41] and I went to a a high school that had a [16:43] really good theater program and I took [16:45] my very first acting class. [16:47] And uh I did uh a scene where uh [16:52] you're supposed to pretend that you're [16:54] in your bedroom and that no one's [16:56] watching, right? So I put on this Elvis [16:58] Costello song, Mystery Dance. I brought [17:00] in my [17:01] my record player from home and I brought [17:03] in some stuff from my room and I put on [17:05] the record of Mystery Dance by Elvis [17:08] Costello and I started just thrashing [17:09] around and just being ridiculous and [17:12] lip-syncing and jumping around and [17:14] flopping on the floor and stuff like [17:15] that. And it I was a brand new student. [17:17] This was like in the first week at this [17:19] new school. [17:21] And it brought the house down. [17:23] And the the 15, 16-year-old that I said [17:26] that was kind of pimply and gangly and [17:29] emotionally cut off and self-hating [17:33] um [17:34] all of a sudden, people were [17:36] patting me on the back back and punching [17:38] me in the shoulder and saying, "Oh my [17:40] god, that was so great." and high-fiving [17:42] me and all of these like cute girls from [17:46] junior year at in high school were like, [17:48] "Oh, where are you from? You're from [17:49] Seattle? Amazing. Will you come sit with [17:51] us at our lunch table?" And like [17:53] and and here I was, this kid from [17:56] suburban where I had been on the chess [17:58] team and played the bassoon and been on [18:00] Model United Nations and I'd barely [18:03] talked to a girl. [18:05] And then I was like, "All right, I'm in. [18:08] Whatever this is, I want this I'm good. [18:11] This is it. [18:13] Forget all that other stuff. Screw the [18:14] bassoon. Screw the chess team. I'm in [18:17] with the drama geeks. And uh and that [18:20] was my path. So so part of it is not so [18:23] noble. Part of it is um [18:26] I went where there was acceptance, where [18:28] there was love, where I had some skill. [18:29] I could make people laugh. [18:31] And where I got attention from the [18:33] opposite sex. [18:35] Hello. [18:37] Tends to be the case [18:38] most of us. Um 20 years old, you [18:40] graduate with a degree in drama. [18:43] Uh [18:44] 20 23. 23. Close. And then you speak of [18:47] 1991 when you're 25 25 years old, that's [18:50] really when you had your, as you say, [18:51] your spiritual crisis. Mhm. [18:55] Was was there a catalyst for that? Seems [18:56] to it seems that at that point in your [18:58] life is when you started experiencing [18:59] anxiety attacks in a really [19:01] debilitating way. [19:03] Was there a catalyst for that? Was there [19:04] anything in your life that was was [19:06] absent or was it just Do you think it [19:08] was just things catching up on you from [19:09] your earliest years? [19:12] Um [19:13] well I don't know about a catalyst, but [19:16] I will paint the picture that I'm out of [19:18] drama school. I'm getting a few little [19:20] acting jobs here and there, but they're [19:22] not paying anything. I'm living with a [19:24] friend and in an abandoned beer brewery [19:26] in Brooklyn. [19:28] Uh essentially kind of [19:30] legally squatting, but we didn't have [19:32] heat, we didn't have a shower. There [19:34] were rats scuttling around. [19:37] And [19:38] I was working in this bar [19:40] where I'd get off work at 4:00 a.m. [19:42] And uh I had a roommate and we were [19:44] living out there and [19:46] I was really directionless. I started [19:49] really experimenting with a lot of drugs [19:51] and alcohol and [19:54] I was pretty rudderless and um [19:59] uh and I started getting hit with really [20:02] crippling anxiety attacks. So, I wasn't [20:06] in the most healthy living environment, [20:09] right? So, but at the same time, I [20:12] remember getting these anxiety attacks [20:14] that would leave me literally shaking on [20:16] the floor and sweating and I would [20:18] thought I was dying and I was like about [20:20] to call 911 like five different times. [20:23] And [20:24] heart palpitations, sweating [20:28] and um I I talked to a doctor at at at [20:32] NYU about them and they said, "Oh, these [20:34] are just anxiety attacks." So, I knew [20:36] that that's what they were, but I didn't [20:37] really know anything about them and uh I [20:40] started getting really depressed and um [20:43] so, there wasn't really like an event, [20:45] but [20:46] circumstances provided the perfect [20:48] environment for kind of a mental health [20:50] breakdown of someone who's 25 years old. [20:54] And how long did that chapter that [20:55] period of your life last where you were [20:57] having anxiety attacks and you were [20:58] rudderless? [20:59] Um I would say five or six years. [21:04] Yeah. [21:07] There were some things got better. I [21:09] started working a little bit more. [21:11] Uh I had a relationship with my [21:14] girlfriend who's now my wife. We've been [21:15] together for 32 years. [21:18] Um and that was great. But even that [21:21] even a better apartment and a nice [21:23] relationship couldn't save me from [21:26] some of what was going on. And we didn't [21:28] In the '90s, we didn't really have words [21:31] for a mental health [21:33] breakdown or mental health issues or [21:35] crisis, you know, it was [21:37] and people didn't really go to therapy. [21:38] You didn't really you couldn't really [21:39] afford it. It was that was like for rich [21:41] people like Woody Allen or something. Um [21:44] so [21:46] uh [21:47] it it stayed things got nominally [21:49] better, but I still uh was [21:53] uh [21:53] pretty uh depressed and and frustrated [21:56] and overwhelmed and [21:58] just generally alienated. The kind of [22:02] waking up at 3:00 in the morning with [22:04] just wide awake staring at the ceiling [22:06] going like [22:07] what the [ __ ] [22:09] does life mean? Why am I here? What you [22:12] know, why should I keep living? What's [22:16] How do I find meaning and [22:19] um [22:20] just that that that just anguish and [22:23] disconnection [22:25] uh at a really core level. [22:28] You asked yourself that question, what [22:30] why should I keep living? [22:32] Yeah. Mhm. [22:34] And it wasn't at that point I've and [22:36] I've had some suicidal ideation over the [22:38] years. That wasn't a time when I was [22:39] actively thinking about ending it, but [22:41] it really was kind of again one of these [22:43] life's big questions, life's deep [22:45] questions that I've been kind of poking [22:48] at in my various books of like why [22:51] should we keep living? What what is the [22:54] purpose? Is it Because one of the odd [22:56] things, Stephen, was that I was in [23:00] certain regards living a life beyond my [23:03] wildest dreams. Here was that kind of [23:06] abused and gaslit kid with low [23:09] self-esteem from suburban Seattle [23:12] um who kind of hated himself and and [23:15] really had trouble fitting in socially [23:18] in any way, shape or form. Here I am [23:20] living in New York City. [23:22] Beautiful girlfriend, working as an [23:24] actor in the theater, not making much [23:26] money and it was only fitfully, but [23:28] still [23:29] that's a big leap to go from where I was [23:33] and and yet I wasn't happy. So, there [23:36] was this odd disconnect because I think [23:39] societally we're taught like, "Hey, you [23:42] find the thing you love to do. [23:44] You go study it. You put in your time. [23:47] You work at it and you you're going to [23:49] start working and yeah, you're going to [23:50] start slow, but it's going to build and [23:52] then you're going to find incredible joy [23:54] and purpose and meaning in your work." [23:57] And I was doing that work in the theater [23:59] and I was getting to be an actor and I [24:00] was getting paychecks as an actor, which [24:02] is an incredible uh experience. [24:06] Um but I was still chronically [24:09] dissatisfied and it didn't make any [24:11] sense because society had been telling [24:13] me this thing for a decade or two and [24:18] I um [24:20] I sh- I felt like I shouldn't be this uh [24:23] uh chronically dissatisfied, [24:25] but I am. [24:27] When did that reach its peak? [24:29] Um [24:31] the it's hard to say. It it it came in [24:33] waves throughout my [24:35] mid-20s and and early 30s. [24:38] And it that's what prompted me [24:42] and this is why pain can be such a [24:43] valuable teacher. And in fact, Arthur [24:46] Brooks just had a column today out in [24:48] the Atlantic where he was talking about [24:50] pain and anxiety and depression does not [24:52] mean that you have a mental health [24:53] issue. Those are [24:56] those are [24:57] normal, standard [25:00] uh [25:00] uh aspects of being a human being. [25:03] So, but my pain prompted me to go on a [25:07] spiritual quest and I'm really grateful [25:09] for that. Like I said, [25:13] To go on a spiritual quest. [25:16] Depression and pain and anxiety and [25:18] those things were signals telling you [25:20] something. Something's out of balance. [25:22] How are you going to bring yourself into [25:23] balance? How are you going to make sense [25:25] of all this? [25:26] And at the time there weren't podcasts [25:29] on positive psychology and there weren't [25:32] I mean, I guess there were some [25:32] self-help books, but I didn't really [25:34] know about them. Because of my uh [25:36] background, because of my childhood, [25:39] I thought, "Well, perhaps because I've [25:41] abandoned anything and everything to do [25:43] with God and spirituality and religion, [25:46] m- maybe that's where I have lost my way [25:49] and maybe I need to re-explore [25:52] those avenues and maybe I can find [25:54] personal meaning [25:56] and serenity [25:58] uh by exploring spiritual ideas." So, it [26:02] was a long process. It was a good [26:05] eight or 10-year process, but I'm I'm [26:07] grateful that my pain [26:11] took me along that path. [26:13] One of the things that I think brings [26:14] spirituality and some of these big [26:16] questions into focus is [26:19] death. [26:20] Mhm. Something you talk about in your [26:21] new book Soul Boom. [26:23] And something you've spoken about [26:24] previously as well. Something that I've [26:26] often pondered about. Um I think it's [26:28] one of the things that really made me [26:30] go in search of answers, deep questions [26:32] at a at a very young age. Um you talk I [26:34] think it's in chapter three of your [26:35] book, but I listened on the audio book, [26:37] so it's [26:38] chapter six on the audio book um about [26:40] the passing of your father. Mhm. How did [26:43] how did that bring into focus [26:46] spirituality, meaning and some of these [26:48] big questions of life? [26:52] Well, I think if you're going to look at [26:53] spirituality, one of the top three uh [26:56] big questions is what happens when we [26:58] die. [26:59] And of course, we don't know. [27:00] But just because we don't know or will [27:02] never know, [27:04] um does that mean that we shouldn't [27:05] explore that question? [27:07] Uh [27:08] hint, no. [27:10] So, [27:11] uh it's something [27:13] it's a topic and a theme and a question [27:15] I had thought about a lot. I had spoken [27:18] about, I'd researched um [27:21] and pondered deeply, but obviously and I [27:24] had had, you know, some people that I [27:25] knew that had died along the way, of [27:27] course, but [27:28] when my father died about three years [27:31] ago, um [27:33] that made a profound impact and really [27:36] prompted me to write the book Soul Boom [27:39] because I had one of these key kind of [27:44] transcendent experiences, spiritual [27:47] experiences, [27:48] which was [27:50] in [27:52] uh [27:53] we my dad died of heart disease. [27:56] Uh he was getting a quadruple bypass [27:58] surgery and he just couldn't make it. He [28:00] didn't they didn't have [28:02] any way to repair the damage in his [28:04] heart and anyways, it was [28:07] we thought he was going to get through [28:08] the surgery and he died. So, it was and [28:10] we knew it was risky, but it was [28:13] it was it was not a predicted death. [28:16] And uh [28:18] my [28:19] his current wife, his widow and myself [28:22] were in the hospital with him and [28:25] we had to essentially unplug him and [28:28] um it was devastating and [28:33] terrifying and oddly enough [28:36] strangely cliché at the same time. And I [28:39] couldn't help but uh and maybe this is [28:42] is that that trauma-based comedic kind [28:45] of [28:45] uh aspect of my [28:48] of my uh [28:51] of myself that I I just kept witnessing [28:54] myself in the situation where my father [28:56] was dying and there's a heart machine [28:57] going beep beep beep beep and there's a [28:59] little oxygen machine going [29:02] and there's doctors and nurses walking [29:04] around with their squeaky shoes and the [29:05] linoleum floors and I was like, "Wow, [29:08] this is just like one of those hospital [29:09] shows." I just kept thinking like I this [29:12] is just like ER, Grey's Anatomy. Like, [29:15] "Wow." Um I was like, "It's so cliché." [29:18] But [29:20] we had to unplug him. Um he was going to [29:23] be dead within an hour. [29:26] And uh we were sobbing and I looked at [29:29] his gray [29:31] body there on the table [29:33] and you know, I saw all these aspects of [29:36] my dad that I loved, you know, the one [29:37] eyebrow hair kind of poking out and you [29:41] know, the mole on his arm and the way [29:44] his hands are and uh his hair kind of [29:47] messy and [29:50] uh it was filled with such love and such [29:52] heartbreak and at the same time [29:56] at seeing his lifeless body I was like [30:00] um [30:01] this isn't him. This isn't my dad. [30:04] This [30:05] is the vessel that carried my dad. [30:09] Robert Wilson and his beautiful heart [30:11] and spirit and his dynamism and his [30:14] creativity, his light as it were is no [30:18] longer here, but that's his reality. [30:20] This body is just a shell. It's a [30:22] vessel. It's an avatar. And [30:26] and I also didn't experience it as oh [30:29] he has uh it's been snuffed out like a [30:32] candle. It just seemed very clear like [30:34] oh it has passed on. [30:37] It's somewhere else now. [30:38] And here is is his body and [30:41] that was such a profound spiritual [30:43] experience that I knew [30:45] intellectually from my study but it's [30:49] one of those learnings that kind of has [30:51] to hit you in the gut [30:53] to make you really understand it and go [30:55] oh and I remember that amazing quote [30:59] that I often pull out from uh Father [31:02] Teilhard de Chardin, a Jesuit priest who [31:05] said famously we are not human beings [31:08] having a spiritual experience. We are [31:10] spiritual beings having a human [31:13] experience. [31:14] And that quote, which I've always loved, [31:17] I saw [31:19] just evidenced with my father. Oh he's a [31:23] spiritual being. He had a human [31:24] experience for 79 years in this body. [31:27] And now his spiritual reality has passed [31:32] and moved on. And [31:34] this is one of the essential messages of [31:37] SoulBoom is that we are spiritual [31:39] beings. We're having this incredible [31:40] human experience. Look at us having this [31:41] incredible dialogue right now. And then [31:43] I'm going to go get an Uber and then [31:45] I've got to go do some voice-overs and [31:46] I'm going to go play tennis with a [31:48] friend and I'm having this you know I'm [31:50] having a relationship with my wife and [31:52] with my son. I'm learning. I'm growing. [31:53] I'm being challenged and uh it's [31:56] magnificent. And here's my my fleshy [31:59] somewhat corpulent 57-year-old body that [32:03] has [32:04] done I've done pretty well by. It's [32:06] ridiculous enough so I get to take my [32:07] shirt off occasionally as Dwight and [32:09] people can laugh at my absurdly pale and [32:12] oblong torso and I'm fine with it. It's [32:15] all for comedy, right? And parts of my [32:18] body are starting to break down. I've [32:19] got like half hearing in my in my left [32:22] ear and I've got mild sleep apnea and I [32:24] have to wear a mouth appliance [32:26] that juts my jaw forward and I wake up [32:28] in the morning and I go [32:30] and I place it on the side of the bed [32:31] and here I am this spiritual being [32:34] having a human experience as Rain [32:36] Dietrich Wilson. [32:40] It's this is fabulous, but this is part [32:42] of what we need to recognize and this [32:45] could help people. This can help people [32:47] with their mental health struggles is an [32:50] understanding that we're we're radiant, [32:53] luminescent, precious shards of the [32:56] divine inhabiting these these fleshy [32:59] meat suits for hopefully 80, 90, or 100 [33:02] years and struggle and suffering and [33:06] anxiety is just comes with the game, [33:08] baby. It's just part of the game. [33:11] You talk about a friend called Dave. [33:13] Yeah. [33:13] David or Dave who also passed quite [33:15] suddenly. [33:16] Um and his handling of that in [33:18] particular um surprised you in many [33:20] ways. [33:22] Uh Dave uh one of my best friends um [33:25] David Von Ancken who was a television [33:27] director, film director. Brilliant guy [33:30] uh [33:31] wonderful human being. And he just got [33:33] diagnosed out of out of nowhere with [33:36] stage four stomach cancer. I mean just [33:38] like out of nowhere. [33:40] Mid-50s and uh essentially a death [33:43] sentence. [33:44] So I got to spend a lot of time with him [33:46] in his last year and a half after that [33:48] diagnosis and we did weekly beach walks [33:51] and he said to me [33:54] several times and he would just grab my [33:56] arm and he would say [33:58] Rain [33:59] it's just static. It's all just static. [34:03] You've got to get the static out of your [34:05] life. [34:06] The emails, the meetings, the the [34:09] career, the the appointments, the the [34:12] driving, the traffic, the phone calls, [34:15] the Zooms. It's all just static. It's [34:18] all noise. [34:19] And [34:21] that really resonated with me and I know [34:23] a lot of people have mentioned that in [34:24] the book because we do experience our [34:26] life as this kind of like buzz of like [34:29] appointments and shoppings and and Zooms [34:31] and appoint and and bills to pay and and [34:33] whatnot. And [34:35] uh [34:36] that was profoundly impactful. Um and I [34:40] would always encourage David to [34:43] it would it's a tricky situation, you [34:45] know, when someone's dying I don't want [34:46] to like [34:48] God forbid lecture him on on death or [34:51] thinking about it, but I would always [34:52] just turn it a little bit toward a more [34:54] profound discussion about [34:56] you know, the soul and the journey of [34:58] the soul and the [35:00] and the movement of of the spirit, you [35:02] know, beyond our this corporal 3D [35:06] uh surround sound experience of being a [35:09] human being to the realms beyond um [35:13] But he like many people um [35:16] he he he got a little stuck in a way [35:19] that made me sad because he [35:21] really just focused on fighting the [35:23] cancer, which is super super important, [35:26] right? So he devoted all of his waking [35:28] time and energy to to research and [35:30] treatment and diet and everything to [35:32] fight the cancer, which is super [35:33] important and I don't blame him, but um [35:36] it was pretty terrifying for him to [35:38] consider mortality and the implications [35:41] thereof. He had a daughter and [35:43] um [35:45] but I'll never forget him talking about [35:46] static in that way and [35:49] uh I find that very to be also very [35:51] clarifying, you know, in my daily [35:54] meditation practice like [35:56] how can I [35:59] again, the Buddha uses the image a lot [36:01] of the lotus flower, you know, it's [36:03] floating on top of the swamp, you know, [36:04] these beautiful lotuses. And there's the [36:07] swamp and the mire and the bugs and the [36:09] dirt and the and and this beautiful uh [36:12] flower rising above and [36:14] how can we in our own little way be a [36:17] lotus flower and the rest of the swamp [36:20] is is our daily static. [36:23] The rest of the swamp, the alternative [36:25] way of living to everything you've just [36:27] described. What is the alternative way [36:29] of living? So you know, you've got the [36:31] the [36:32] the realization that everything is [36:34] static and the understanding that we are [36:37] spiritual beings having a human [36:38] experience. [36:39] Yeah. What is the opposite of that that [36:41] you see when you walk the streets or you [36:43] observe people? What is the opposite way [36:46] of living to that? And why is it causing [36:48] suffering? [36:49] Thoreau talked about the unexamined life [36:51] is not worth living. Why did he say [36:53] that? And what did he mean [36:55] by that? Well, it's been a long time [36:57] since I read Walden Pond um [37:00] and the night Thoreau spent in jail, but [37:02] I loved the transcendentalists [37:04] because that is really kind of the first [37:07] authentic uh American spiritual [37:09] movement. And [37:11] uh this idea that uh we're seeking uh [37:16] transcendence that were that was kind of [37:18] the first movement that really [37:19] acknowledged like we're spiritual [37:20] beings. So I think you know, it's the [37:23] unexamined life. I think um [37:26] living in the static and living in the [37:27] swamp is not taking the time to [37:32] uh honor [37:34] the sacred divinity of aspects of our [37:38] life. [37:39] And [37:42] you know, I I have a [37:44] When you study meditation and you and [37:46] you participate in meditation [37:48] there's this strange thing that happens [37:50] where you realize that you [37:53] the reality of you [37:56] is the watcher, the observer. When you [37:59] meditate [38:01] your thoughts are still bouncing around, [38:03] you know, the Buddhists call it the [38:04] monkey mind, right? So your bound your [38:06] thoughts are bouncing around. You might [38:07] have some anxiety and worry like oh is [38:09] that person going to accept my offer on [38:10] this or is this thing going to work out [38:13] or oh is my wife still mad at me or [38:14] whatever. So you have this emotional [38:17] dissonance and you have this kind of [38:19] intellectual [38:20] uh dissonance. And then in the [38:22] meditative state you're just witnessing [38:24] that. It's almost like you're floating [38:25] above it and looking down. And then you [38:29] realize like oh my reality is not my [38:31] thoughts. [38:32] My reality is not my feelings. My [38:35] reality is not even just my body and the [38:38] sensations that my body takes in. There [38:40] is some kind of aspect of the I [38:45] that is the witnesser. [38:48] And [38:50] it's getting in touch with that [38:52] that allows us to get above the static. [38:55] So meditation is very important to me. [38:57] The next step of meditation for me is [39:00] connecting with [39:01] the ultimate divine. You can do it in [39:03] prayer. I have a chapter in the book [39:05] called the the notorious G O D. [39:08] Um getting into God. So [39:11] um [39:13] yeah, that that's one way to rise above [39:17] the noise and the static and the swamp [39:21] is in that practice. And then [39:24] I mentioned at the very beginning like [39:27] recognizing the sacred and the divine um [39:30] and we can do this and it's it's [39:32] certainly easy to do in the beauty of [39:34] nature. Mhm. It's also when you have [39:36] children and you're and you're raising a [39:37] kid, you kind of see that [39:40] the beauty in the in the kids' natural [39:42] curiosity and wonder and [39:43] openheartedness. [39:45] And then you experience it in in human [39:48] interaction, you know? I think I view [39:50] this conversation as sacred. This is a [39:53] This is a sacred conversation. We're [39:55] seeking to understand each other. Um [39:58] you're you're being a service to your [40:00] incredible audience. They want to learn [40:02] about how to make themselves better [40:03] people, how to start a business, how to [40:06] maximize their health, how to go on a on [40:08] a spiritual journey as a human being. [40:11] They want to learn all this and you're [40:13] providing the the way into them. So, we [40:17] get to have this conversation. People [40:18] may not agree with what I'm saying, but [40:20] it might spark something. And you know, [40:23] gratitude [40:25] uh and witnessing the sacred and that [40:28] meditative practice of kind of rising [40:30] above our thoughts and feelings. Um [40:34] that those are those are tools that we [40:36] can use to make our lives better and and [40:38] richer. If someone is on the the [40:41] outsides of this conversation and they [40:43] they don't really understand what [40:44] spirituality is and they've not really [40:45] gone on the journey that you've been on, [40:47] what are what kind of questions would [40:49] you pose to them [40:52] to help them open their mind? [40:56] So, if someone's listening to this, they [40:57] they find the word spiritual to be kind [40:59] of hippie stuff and they they're not [41:01] really, you know, they managed to get [41:02] this far in the conversation, but they [41:03] they don't really understand [41:04] spirituality, what it means. They [41:06] managed to get this far. Don't turn off [41:07] the podcast yet. There's more good stuff [41:09] coming. We're going to talk about The [41:10] Office. I promise. [41:12] Stick around, folks. Way too many [41:14] cameras here. Is it I think there's nine [41:16] or something. [41:18] We should do [41:19] Um what would you say to those people? [41:21] That I just think of a guy driving his [41:23] like lorry up the country. He's put the [41:25] podcast on and he's he doesn't really [41:27] know what spirituality is, doesn't [41:29] really understand it, doesn't understand [41:30] why he he would therefore need it in his [41:32] life. [41:34] Yeah. [41:35] That's a great question. I don't know [41:37] that I have an answer for that. I mean, [41:40] I guess, you know, the dictionary [41:42] definition of of spirituality that I use [41:45] is uh a focus on the non-material [41:48] aspects of life. [41:50] So, [41:52] that's our heart, that's our our our [41:55] soul, it's our connection. [41:57] It's the light that we bring. [41:59] It's [42:01] kind of a a connection to what I would [42:03] call the divine qualities that we all [42:06] carry [42:07] uh to some degree or another. [42:09] Um spiritual virtues, you could call [42:12] them. Uh [42:14] you know, love, compassion, honesty, [42:16] humility. [42:18] These are qualities that don't [42:20] necessarily serve us as human animals. [42:23] So, there there's something [42:25] uh [42:26] they're not about the quest for power, [42:28] they're not about the quest for status [42:30] and comfort. They um allow us to kind of [42:32] rise above [42:34] uh our kind of humdrum human experience. [42:38] So, that's what I would That's how I [42:40] would define spirituality, something in [42:41] that realm. But, I would say that um [42:46] listen, we all want more love in our [42:47] life, right? And love is the most [42:50] precious and beautiful resource. [42:53] And I would say maybe you don't believe [42:55] in spirituality, but or maybe you don't [42:57] believe in God, but you can focus on [43:00] love. And we can all focus on love. [43:02] That's something we all have an [43:03] experience of. [43:05] And so, we want to increase love in our [43:07] life, that's that's increasing [43:09] spirituality, it's the same thing. Like [43:13] uh [43:15] I had a profound experience of love [43:18] um [43:19] when my son was born. He almost died. It [43:22] was very traumatic birth. [43:24] An ER room with blood in the middle of [43:27] the night and a [43:28] in a really [43:30] piss-poor [43:32] Van Nuys, California, you know, county [43:34] hospital in a hallway. Um [43:38] emergency C-section. And when I held my [43:41] son, like I I again I had one of those [43:43] handful of truly transcendent [43:46] experiences, one of those cosmic [43:48] experiences of [43:49] looking into my son's eyes and uh they [43:53] were bright, bright blue and he'd just [43:57] been ripped from the womb of his mother [43:59] and I felt such profound love for him [44:04] and it was just like waves after waves [44:08] of of love. And just almost I had tears, [44:13] but it was almost just beyond tears. It [44:15] was like this transcendent like love [44:17] orgasm that was minutes long as I as I [44:21] held him just with such gratitude and um [44:26] and [44:28] you know, for a lot of materialists, [44:30] they could say, "Well, that's just [44:32] neurons and biochemicals in your brain [44:35] that are causing that." And that's true. [44:36] There are neurons firing and there's [44:38] biochemicals, but it's so much more than [44:40] that. You're never going to tell me that [44:42] that's all it is and that it's just some [44:44] biological imperative to you know, have [44:46] the species move forward and that's why [44:48] parents love their children. Like what I [44:50] experienced, I'm sorry, it's just it's [44:53] beyond that. You can call me deluded, [44:55] but that's what spirituality is, is just [44:58] increasing that love connection. That I [45:01] think that was a dating show in the [45:02] '90s, Love Connection. But, we want to [45:04] increase [45:06] that love connection and that is what a [45:08] spiritual journey is about. And we can [45:10] increase that with ourselves, with [45:12] nature, with with time, with beauty, um [45:16] and with our with our fellow human [45:18] beings. How did the birth of your son [45:20] change your life? [45:23] Well, [45:24] having kids uh is a paradigm shift [45:28] uh because you have a creature that's in [45:31] your care and is dependent on you. And [45:34] uh and it was actually really profound [45:37] when my son was a year and a half, [45:40] uh the same age that I was when my mom [45:43] left to have the affair. That was a [45:45] really profound time in my life. It [45:47] brought up a lot for me emotionally [45:50] because I saw this toddler kid [45:54] and he would go out and explore the [45:56] world and be like, "Oh, here's a cup." [45:57] And [45:58] play with some blocks and he'd "Oh, a [46:00] tree." And he'd had some words going and [46:02] stuff like that. And then immediately [46:04] you'd see this look on his face, like, [46:06] "Oh, I'm out too far." Like, "Oh, I'm [46:07] I've swam out too far." And then he'd [46:09] run back to the shallow end [46:11] to his mom and cling to his mom and [46:14] like, "Ah." And mom was home base, [46:16] right? [46:17] And I was like, "Oh, that home base was [46:20] stripped from me. Was taken away from me [46:22] when I was that same age." It was pretty [46:24] profound. [46:26] But, [46:27] this idea that our um we're responsible [46:31] we brought a life into the world and [46:33] we're responsible for that life, not [46:35] just for [46:36] 5 or 10 years, not just for the first 18 [46:38] years, but for eternity, it's um [46:42] it's profound. I can't really say [46:44] intellectually what that means, but [46:47] um it shifts the way you are alive in [46:50] the world. That example you gave of your [46:52] your son at 1 and 1/2 years old being [46:54] able to return to home base, in that you [46:57] can also see what what might have [46:59] happened to his development and his [47:01] perspective if when he'd gone out too [47:03] far and turned around, there was no [47:04] mother there. Yeah. [47:06] Who he might have become. And the and if [47:08] there was no mother there, and then [47:11] if if I and but then he had he had the [47:15] father, which is a close second, right? [47:18] But, then my dad, who was so traumatized [47:20] by being abandoned by his wife and was [47:23] so already emotionally shut down and he [47:26] couldn't really access emotions in the [47:28] best of scenarios. He had been [47:30] colossally abused as a kid and his mom [47:34] died and his dad was abusive and beat [47:37] him and left him and his sister alone in [47:39] the house for weeks at a time. It was [47:40] very Charles Dickens. Um so, this [47:44] you know, my dad's case, he was he was [47:47] the worst possible person to to have to [47:50] bond to, you know, or to need to bond [47:53] to. So, [47:54] you know, if little Walter if my wife [47:57] Holiday had left or or died for some [48:00] reason and Walter had to turn to me, [48:01] like [48:03] it would have been okay, but there's [48:06] there's nothing that fulfills that um [48:10] uh that that primal human [48:14] uh [48:15] connectionness [48:17] than [48:18] a child and the mom. One of the things [48:21] that really surprised me um was when I [48:23] was reading about your time at The [48:25] Office, which by the way, I have to say [48:27] is my favorite show of all time. [48:29] Should probably say that. I'm sure it's [48:30] that's the case for a lot of people. [48:31] Wait, are you saying right now that the [48:33] US Office is better than the UK Office? [48:35] Yes. Wow. [48:37] Yes, I'm I know. Do you hear that? It is [48:40] maybe because there was more of them. [48:43] There's a hell of a lot more of them. [48:44] So, I've watched I watched honestly, [48:46] when I was going through a difficult [48:47] part in my life and I was trying to I [48:49] was building my businesses, I was [48:51] shoplifting food cuz I was just I was so [48:52] broke at this chap in chapter of my [48:54] life. It was the I had this beat-up [48:56] laptop where I had to like solder the [48:58] charger cuz I couldn't afford the 10 [49:00] pounds to buy a new one. It was the only [49:02] thing I watched and I watched it for [49:04] about 2 years. So, obviously I I just [49:06] kept going back and back and back. It [49:07] was, you know, you're talking in chapter [49:08] 10 about the seven pillars of spiritual [49:11] revolution and one of them being about [49:12] spreading joy. It spread a whole lot of [49:14] joy in my life, a whole lot of joy. And [49:17] I don't watch TV, to be honest. I don't [49:18] watch TV, movies, don't really watch any [49:19] of it. These guys will know. But, The [49:21] Office [49:22] I watched. I don't think there's [49:24] anything else that I have that I have [49:25] watched. Um [49:27] but when I when I read about your your [49:29] experience on the show, there was a real [49:31] sense of unfulfillment, [49:33] especially in the early years when you [49:34] were making the show. [49:36] Um you just talked about that a little [49:37] bit on Bill's podcast, as well. [49:41] When I was in the office, I spent [49:42] several years really mostly unhappy [49:45] because it wasn't enough. Mhm. Yeah. [49:48] Well, first of all, I'm so glad that you [49:50] enjoyed The Office, and I just need to [49:52] speak to how deeply gratified I am and [49:55] all of us are [49:56] that The Office has brought so much [49:59] uh serenity and peace and love and uh [50:04] upliftment and inspiration to people. [50:07] I mean, getting on a TV show is one of [50:10] the hardest things in the world, and [50:11] then getting on one that lasts is a [50:13] really hard one. And then getting on one [50:14] that lasts and is good, and then one [50:17] that lasts and is good and still has a [50:20] cultural impact 10 years after it has [50:22] ended [50:24] is [50:24] I mean, talk about hitting the lottery. [50:26] I mean, we had no idea. We knew we were [50:29] onto something really special and and [50:31] funny and magical, and of course Steve [50:32] Carell is one of the great comedic [50:35] actors that will ever live. Um, [50:38] but uh we had no idea it would have this [50:41] kind of impact and we're so [50:43] deeply grateful and gratified um [50:46] around that. [50:48] And I going back to the English Office, [50:50] it's always like it's so funny to me uh [50:52] in The Bassoon King, the other book [50:53] there I talk a a little bit about that [50:55] that competition is so absurd. Like [50:58] the the anger and vitriol that you Brits [51:01] brought to the fact that that Americans [51:03] were going to make remake the beloved [51:05] Office. It was so staggering. I mean, it [51:08] was so enraged [51:11] and vitriolic, and it was like, Guys, [51:14] guys, the English Office isn't going [51:16] anywhere. You can watch it over and over [51:18] again. We're not going to take all the [51:20] copies and burn them. You know what I [51:22] mean? We're going to take a brilliant [51:24] idea by you know, by Ricky and Stephen [51:27] and the BBC, and God bless them. Um, [51:30] you know, it's [51:31] a astonishingly brilliant, and we're [51:33] going to kind of run with it. Instead of [51:35] 12 episodes, we're going to make 200 [51:37] episodes. How's that? If you don't like [51:39] it, you don't have to watch it. But uh [51:41] that was an interesting [51:42] uh [51:43] time frame. But yeah, so it's [51:46] interesting that you bring this up [51:47] because [51:49] I was very frustrated cuz I was on Bill [51:51] Maher and I was on one other podcast, [51:53] and I was talking about how [51:55] there were times on The Office that I [51:57] really struggled because I really wasn't [52:00] happy. [52:01] Um, [52:03] because it wasn't enough. Here I was on [52:07] the greatest job that I could ever [52:10] imagine, beyond my wildest dreams of [52:13] that geeky, chess-playing, [52:15] bassoon-playing kid from suburban [52:17] Seattle that, you know, walked around [52:19] like a pimply serial killer, um that I [52:22] would be part of one of the great TV [52:24] shows of all time. I mean, give me a [52:25] break. And here I was getting paid like [52:28] millions of dollars and playing one of [52:30] the most memorable characters, and I'm [52:31] getting nominated for awards, and I'm [52:33] working with the most beautiful family [52:35] of of actors and writers imaginable, and [52:39] yet I was like, [52:41] "How come I can't get more movies? And [52:43] why did my movie I did bomb? And why [52:45] won't they make a deal with me? And I I [52:47] just I want to have this, and I want an [52:49] office on Warner Brothers. And why can't [52:51] I get a you know, [52:53] and I spent a lot of time [52:56] uh unnecessary time and angst and [52:58] anguish um in that anxious discontent um [53:03] at a time when I should have just been [53:05] like, [53:06] "This, it doesn't get better than this. [53:08] Just enjoy it. Drink it in, and be a [53:12] part of this incredible artistic, cuz it [53:15] was artistic, experience." So, but I [53:18] think the reason I've been bringing that [53:20] up in some interviews [53:22] is I think it's important for people to [53:24] understand that, [53:25] you know, here's someone who, [53:28] you know, 15 years into their acting [53:30] career, 20 years into their acting [53:32] career, cuz I was I started playing [53:33] Dwight when I was 38 years old, [53:36] um [53:37] is [53:38] uh has a officially made it, Yeah. and [53:42] they're still unhappy. And that is so [53:46] human. It's so quintessentially human. [53:49] And to think that, oh, if I hit this end [53:52] result, then I am going to be happy? [53:55] And that's why I I I brought it back to [53:57] that unhappiness that I experienced in [53:59] my 20s. Like [54:01] I was an actor. I was from suburban [54:02] Seattle. Here I was. I had an apartment [54:04] in New York. I was doing acting, and yet [54:06] I was really unhappy and miserable, and [54:09] it didn't make any sense cuz society had [54:11] always told me like [54:12] there's this if-then proposition. Like [54:15] if you achieve X, Y, and Z, if you make [54:17] a certain amount of money, if you get a [54:19] certain position, if you're in a certain [54:20] kind of relationship, if you have a [54:22] house at a certain level, if you're a [54:23] member of a certain club, or whatever, [54:26] then you will be happy. Once I achieve [54:28] this, then I will be happy. That's [54:29] [ __ ] It's absolute and total crock [54:33] of [ __ ] Now, [54:35] certainly [54:36] I'm not meaning to demean anyone that's [54:38] struggling to pay bills, and they're [54:39] going like, you know, [ __ ] you, [54:41] Hollywood elitist. You got millions of [54:43] dollars in the bank, and uh you don't [54:46] have to worry about, you know, paying [54:47] the bills. I was there, you know, I was [54:49] I was having to worry about, you know, [54:52] paying the bills, and it was it was a [54:53] struggle for the, you know, first 15 [54:55] years of my career. So, I've been there. [54:57] I know what that's like, and I honor [54:58] that. So, you certainly want to make [55:01] enough money to [55:02] it does take an incredible pressure off [55:04] your shoulders once you have achieved [55:06] that. But to think that then you're [55:07] going to be happy? I mean, you've [55:09] interviewed a lot of millionaires and a [55:11] lot of successful people. Like how how [55:12] many of them are really [55:14] fulfilled uh deeply fulfilled and happy? [55:18] What would I have to have done to have [55:20] gotten Rain at the height and the peak [55:22] of that success, even when it was going, [55:24] to be in the moment and to enjoy it for [55:26] what it was? Because it's not just you. [55:28] It's it's all the people that are [55:29] listening now that are in jobs. They [55:31] just got that promotion. [55:32] And now they're thinking about becoming [55:33] a director or a CEO. They they too are [55:36] deferring their happiness off to the [55:37] future behind some goal. [55:39] What can we do in the moment to just [55:40] like [55:41] enjoy [55:42] life today? Bring our happiness into the [55:45] into the now. [55:47] Um, [55:48] if you always think your happiness is [55:49] somewhere in the future, it always will [55:50] be. [55:51] Um, [55:52] what would I have to have said to you to [55:54] to get you to snap out of that? [55:58] Um, [55:59] that that's a great question. [56:02] I don't know that there's anything that [56:03] you could have said to me in a couple of [56:05] sentences or a couple of paragraphs, but [56:07] I think if you could have encouraged me [56:09] to go back onto my spiritual journey, [56:11] back into my spiritual journey, because [56:13] you're absolutely right. All we have is [56:16] now. All we have is this next breath. [56:18] It's this breath that we're currently [56:20] experiencing. [56:21] And [56:22] this is where the joy is. And if we're [56:24] waiting for the joy to be [56:27] 375 breaths from now, or 3,000 breaths [56:30] from now, or 300 breaths from now, [56:33] um we're missing out 100%. And [56:37] I think gratitude has a great deal cuz [56:41] one of the cures for chronic [56:43] dissatisfaction, [56:44] the cure for dukkha, is [56:46] is gratitude. And I would have been to [56:49] Rain, one of the things that would have [56:50] been really helpful is like, Rain, you [56:52] need to start every day with 10 things [56:54] you're grateful for. It's like, I'm [56:56] grateful for Jenna Fischer and John [56:58] Krasinski and Steve Carell, and I'm [56:59] grateful for a nice paycheck and a and a [57:01] healthy son and a beautiful wife, and [57:04] I'm I'm grateful for, [57:06] you know, the fans of The Office and the [57:08] fact that I get to, [57:10] you know, I've trained as an actor my [57:12] whole life, and I get to use those [57:13] skills and tell wonderful stories and [57:16] make people laugh. Like if I could have [57:18] been stayed hooked into that, and I did [57:20] get hooked back into that. Those This [57:23] was a I'm describing a period of like [57:25] 3 years, 3 to 4 years where I was really [57:27] struggling with that, and then and then [57:29] I I came around. [57:31] Um, Does it rub you of your ambition, [57:33] though? This is a question I always used [57:34] to wrestle with myself, because that [57:36] that Rain that wanted more [57:39] versus the Rain that goes, "I'm grateful [57:40] for what I have." Is one more or less [57:42] ambitious than the other? [57:44] Yeah, that's a that's a great question. [57:46] I and I don't know the answer to that [57:48] because there is [57:49] um [57:51] did my chronic dissatisfaction fueled my [57:54] spiritual drive, it also fueled my [57:56] career drive and my ambition [57:59] um because I was so chronically dis- [58:01] dis- disenchanted and disaffected uh [58:05] that I I wanted uh [58:08] uh I wanted more. I wanted more [58:10] opportunities. I wanted more money. I [58:11] wanted more knowledge. I wanted more [58:13] wisdom. [58:14] Um, [58:15] there is there's a drive there that can [58:17] be healthy, and a drive that's there's [58:19] an unhealthy aspect to it. So, I don't [58:21] really know the answer to that. I think [58:23] for now, when I look in my life, like I [58:25] still have great ambition. Like I still [58:27] want SoulPancake as a brand. I'm just [58:30] kind of starting to think about like how [58:32] to expand that as a brand. [58:34] Um, I still want to act in movies. You [58:36] know, I want to direct. I want to [58:38] maybe create companies. You know, I [58:40] created SoulPancake, maybe create [58:42] another company or something like that. [58:43] And there there's a lot I want to do. [58:46] Um, [58:47] but I'm hoping to bring the best aspects [58:49] of myself towards that ambition. And for [58:52] me, that has to do with service and um [58:58] and God [59:00] and um [59:02] and utilizing myself, my God-given [59:05] talents uh and faculties, and maximizing [59:09] those [59:10] um [59:12] and living in God's will. I'm sorry to [59:14] get all [59:16] hippie-dippie religious now, but to me, [59:18] that's what's driving me now, but it's [59:22] uh as long as we're in the battle of the [59:24] ego. And that's the most ancient right [59:27] human spiritual struggle. It's the [59:29] battle of the ego. And psychologists [59:31] talk about it, and prophets talk about [59:33] it, and gurus talk about it, right? So, [59:36] as long as we want to promote the self [59:39] and the self-will and ego satisfaction, [59:42] we will never be happy. [59:44] Are you happy? [59:45] I am. [59:46] Yeah. Happy's the wrong word, but [59:49] whatever it is you mean by happy, I have [59:51] that thing. [59:52] What is that thing? [59:55] Um I don't know what the word is, and I [59:57] I I ponder this a lot. Like, what's the [59:59] perfect word? You know, social [60:00] scientists talk about well-being. So, [60:03] I like that one a lot. Mhm. That works. [60:06] Uh it's partially contentment, uh but [60:08] it's also partially [60:10] um meaning and purpose and vision. [60:14] And when I'm in alignment with meaning [60:15] and purpose and vision, um then I feel [60:20] like I'm vibrating [60:22] on the right frequency. [60:24] I discovered a product which has changed [60:25] my life called Eight Sleep. And I'm so [60:27] proud to say today that I had a chat [60:29] with the founder of the brand, and they [60:30] are now a podcast sponsor. And one of [60:32] the things I've come to learn on this [60:33] podcast from speaking with sleep experts [60:35] like Matthew Walker is how important [60:37] temperature is when it comes to sleep. [60:39] The temperature of your room, the [60:41] temperature of your bed. And also, one [60:43] of the big insights I had from speaking [60:45] to some experts was that the temperature [60:47] of the room should fluctuate throughout [60:50] the night as you move through different [60:52] stages of sleep. So, when you first get [60:54] into bed, it should be quite cool in [60:56] bed. It should then get a little bit [60:58] cooler, and then the temperature should [61:00] increase near the end. And that is a [61:01] reflection of what would have happened [61:03] in nature once upon a time. You've [61:06] probably come to learn that I have [61:07] sponsors on this podcast that I use and [61:10] products that I love. My sponsors should [61:12] be a reflection of the conversations I'm [61:14] having, but also a reflection of what [61:16] I'm using in my life. So, to celebrate [61:18] them being a new podcast sponsor, I [61:19] always want to get a discount for you [61:21] guys, and I've got one. Go to [61:22] eightsleep.com, which is e i g h t [61:26] sleep.com/steven, [61:29] and if you do that, you'll save $150 [61:32] on the pod cover that I have on my bed, [61:34] the one I'm talking about. Grab your pod [61:36] cover, send me a DM, and let me know how [61:39] you get on. [61:40] Quick one. You guys know that for years [61:41] now, my office has quite literally been [61:44] everywhere. On a plane, in the back of [61:46] my car, in a terminal in an airport, or [61:48] on a train. You name it, I've probably [61:50] worked there. Ever since I started my [61:52] first business at 19 years old, I've [61:54] been working on the move. All I need is [61:56] Wi-Fi, a desk, and my headphones, and [61:59] I'm set. And one of the places that has [62:01] always had my back when I'm struggling [62:03] to find an office is WeWork. I've been [62:05] using WeWork for years now, whether it's [62:07] in Manchester, London, Manhattan, or LA, [62:10] WeWork is easy. It literally requires no [62:12] thinking. There's no stress of finding [62:14] the perfect working location. WeWork [62:16] does it all for you. Plenty of desk [62:18] space, meeting rooms, collaboration [62:20] spaces, drinks, snacks, it's all there. [62:22] So, for your next remote working trip [62:24] away from the office, or if you want a [62:25] new fresh space to work in, then don't [62:27] just work anywhere. WeWork might just be [62:29] your answer. And you can get 25% off [62:31] your first 6 months of WeWork all access [62:33] by using code CEO works. That's one [62:36] word, CEO works. And to redeem this [62:39] offer, visit we.co/ceoworks. [62:44] What are the things that you you you [62:45] still struggle with? Because sometimes [62:47] when we we read the books and stuff, and [62:49] I've written a book myself, it can [62:51] sometimes [62:53] exude the illusion of fi- fixed or [62:57] figured it all out. I'm done. [62:59] Right. What So, what do you still [63:01] struggle with on a on a ongoing basis? [63:03] Yeah, uh [63:05] I think that uh [63:07] I can be a better husband, um and I [63:10] think I can be a a kinder [63:12] uh father and uh more compassionate [63:15] friend. [63:17] Um there's still some really basics of [63:19] human interaction that I haven't quite [63:21] gotten figured out. Really? And well, [63:24] because I wasn't really I didn't learn [63:27] these things from my parents, right? I [63:29] didn't learn [63:30] um [63:31] you know, connection and compassion in [63:34] the household that I grew up in. So, [63:35] I've had to, you know, a parent my adult [63:38] self in that in that direction. [63:41] And you know, to really I I struggle [63:44] with um [63:46] uh making sure that I'm uh again, using [63:49] the tools that God has given me to try [63:51] and make the world a better place. I [63:53] think there's a lot more that I could be [63:54] doing to [63:55] uh try and make the world better and to [63:57] help [63:59] uh [64:00] heal people that are disenfranchised and [64:02] bring more joy to people's lives and um [64:06] and try and bring spiritual tools to a [64:08] young generation that I think will make [64:10] their lives better. There's there's more [64:12] I could be doing to that end. [64:14] And I still have a big ego. You know, [64:16] I'm still narcissistic, and I still, [64:18] you know, want ego satisfaction, and [64:21] it's always there, you know, it's [64:24] it's uh [64:25] it's uh [64:27] you know, they always say an addiction [64:28] that your addict is in the basement [64:30] doing push-ups, you know, even when But [64:32] I would say the same thing about the [64:34] ego, you know. It's there in the in the [64:36] basement doing push-ups, just getting [64:38] ready to come in and take the reins. [64:40] Does it speak to you sometimes, [64:42] the the the guy in the basement? [64:45] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. You know, Young [64:47] talks about the shadow side, and it's so [64:50] important and part of the therapeutic [64:52] process is to get to know one's shadow, [64:54] because [64:55] and to know and embrace and accept and [64:58] love one's shadow. And I have a sh- I [64:59] have a dark shadow, you know, it's an [65:01] addict shadow, and it's a miserable [65:04] shadow, and it's [65:05] self-important and righteous and [65:07] entitled and [65:08] this is this is part of who Rainn Wilson [65:11] is, you know? And [65:13] I'm not going to get rid of those [65:16] aspects of myself by keeping that shadow [65:18] at at arm's length or locked in a closet [65:20] or something like that. I have to, [65:22] you know, keep your keep your enemies [65:24] closer, you know? Keep that Keep that [65:26] shadow. There you are, buddy. There you [65:28] are. Huh. Goon goon goon goon Right in [65:30] the belly. Goon goon goon goon goon. [65:32] Yeah, you little you little mean little [65:35] addict, you know? You little [65:37] narcissistic entitled [ __ ] [65:40] I love you. I love you. You're right [65:42] here with me. You're part of me. Let's [65:44] go on this We're in this together. I got [65:46] you right where I want you. Everyone's [65:48] got a shadow. Um a lot of people are [65:50] trying to fight their shadow. [65:51] I mean, a lot of the prevailing [65:53] narratives are that you can therapy your [65:55] way out of the shadow. Yeah. No, it's [65:58] it's sitting the [66:00] You got to sh- sit the shadow on the [66:01] lap, almost like a ventriloquist dummy, [66:04] you know? It's That's why I love [66:05] ventriloqu- ventriloquist [66:08] stories and horror films of like the [66:11] dummies that come to life and attack, [66:13] you know? Mhm. Because that's that's [66:16] your shadow is is that. Hello. How are [66:19] you? [ __ ] you, Steven. Diary of a [66:21] [ __ ] CEO. Get a new t-shirt, idiot. [66:25] That's going to be the trailer. [66:32] Um [66:33] the 12-step program, you and Russell [66:35] have both spoken to me about this, but [66:36] Michael Mosley talked to me about it as [66:38] well. And what I've since the [66:39] conversation with Russell, I've I've [66:40] spent a lot of time talking to other [66:41] people about um really like what makes [66:45] us change. [66:46] So, the 12-step program is has some [66:48] principles which I think are applicable [66:50] for all of our lives about how to how to [66:53] create change. [66:55] Um [66:57] if someone's going through something in [66:58] their lives now, and they're they're [66:59] they're struggling to change it, how how [67:01] does that 12-step program help us to go [67:04] to change? What what what is it about [67:06] that program that causes that change in [67:08] people? Do you know? I love the 12-step [67:10] program. That's such a great question. [67:12] There's going to be people that are way [67:13] more um [67:15] knowledgeable than I, [67:18] but I will say there are some essential [67:20] components of the 12-step program that [67:21] you're right are applicable to everyone [67:23] and could make everyone's lives better. [67:25] Uh I think society as a whole could [67:27] benefit from [67:29] uh a lot of the way that the 12 steps [67:31] work. Um [67:33] I think it's the most profound spiritual [67:35] movement of the last several hundred [67:39] years. Uh it has transformed millions of [67:42] people's lives. [67:45] First of all, there's the idea that [67:48] there's this wonderful dichotomy at the [67:49] center of the 12 steps, [67:51] which is if I surrender, [67:54] if I admit defeat, if I admit [67:57] powerlessness, [67:58] I find great strength. [68:01] So, there's a there's a beautiful [68:02] spiritual koan at the center of that. [68:05] Mhm. I give up. I throw up the white [68:07] flag. I can't do this on my own. [68:10] I need the support of a community. [68:13] I need to get vulnerable. [68:15] I need the support of a higher power. [68:17] And then I find great strength. There's [68:19] something just so beautiful about that. [68:21] And the community of the 12 steps is [68:23] amazing, too. Like, [68:25] sharing with like-minded alcoholics, [68:28] um [68:29] and getting the support of that [68:31] community, the fact that there's servant [68:33] leaders, that there's elections, that [68:35] it's it's run It's the inmates running [68:37] the asylum, you know? Uh there aren't [68:39] these kind of [68:41] leaders. In fact, [68:43] there if there's someone who kind of [68:44] presents as like a leader in 12 steps, [68:46] you should be immediately [68:48] wary of them and that they have any kind [68:50] of answer at all. The surrender point [68:53] really is the thing that's compelled me, [68:54] in fact. It's when Russell was talking [68:56] about this idea of [68:58] um I think the kind of what he said was [68:59] like, [69:00] he broke it down into three kind of [69:01] processes. Awareness of whatever it is, [69:04] the belief that you can change the [69:05] thing, and then this third step, this [69:06] principle of kind of surrendering to it. [69:09] And in and in an individualistic [69:11] society, materialistic society, where [69:13] we're becoming more and more [69:15] isolated and individualistic in our [69:17] approach to life, we are living in four [69:19] white walls alone more than ever before. [69:21] You know, we we think we can do it [69:23] ourselves, right? This idea of surrender [69:26] and admitting that you need the [69:28] collective and help with something and [69:30] that you might not have the answers I [69:31] think is so powerful. [69:33] So so important as well. I think we all [69:35] need to surrender in many ways. I think [69:36] I need to surrender. Mhm. In terms of my [69:39] ego, I think I need to surrender um [69:42] in terms of even spirituality. I told [69:44] you a second ago about my my partner who [69:46] is very [69:47] whatever anyone might call spiritual and [69:50] surrendering to her way of living has [69:53] brought me so much value Mhm. in my [69:55] life. So this idea of surrender being [69:58] the solution to [70:00] um [70:02] the resistance we're encountering by the [70:04] ways that we're living, I think it's [70:06] something that everyone can consider. [70:07] Like if you're feeling a deep sense of [70:09] dissatisfaction in your life, [70:11] surrendering and saying [70:14] I need help. I don't know the answer. [70:16] Um [70:19] Can Can you help me? Yeah. brings in [70:22] everything you're It's probably that the [70:23] medicine that you're seeking. Mhm. But [70:25] surrender feels like an interesting [70:26] word. It feels like powerlessness. [70:28] Right. But again, there's great power in [70:30] that powerlessness. And what do you [70:32] surrender to? And that's why there's a [70:34] higher power as well. And [70:37] uh boy, there's so many things I wanted [70:38] to say there. [70:40] Um [70:41] but [70:42] uh [70:42] there's a humility in the process that [70:45] is missing in contemporary society, [70:46] right? I'd say we're the least humble [70:49] that humans have been [70:51] uh [70:51] in in our history, all 8 billion of us [70:54] sharing this planet. [70:55] So um [70:58] And I think God or a higher power [71:01] requires a certain humility. Like [71:03] there's a power greater than myself. The [71:05] ego [71:07] is the opposite of surrender. The ego [71:09] wants to control outcomes. The ego wants [71:12] to control other people, right? As long [71:14] as we're trying to control other people [71:15] and control outcomes, we're going to be [71:17] unhappy. So there's something about [71:19] surrendering like [71:21] you know, your your partner's [71:23] you know, journey, you you surrender to [71:25] that. [71:26] You don't know what she's going to go [71:28] live on a commune or worship a mushroom [71:31] or something like that. Okay, you're on [71:32] your journey. She already does, babe. [71:34] Babe. [71:36] You know. So it's it's again that [71:39] central spiritual struggle is is the is [71:43] the is the ego, is the primacy, the [71:46] primacy, the primalcy [71:48] of I, the self, as being separate from [71:52] everything else. And the essential [71:55] spiritual teaching at the center of [71:56] every faith tradition is that we're all [71:58] connected. We're all united. We're all [72:00] one. This is an illusion of self. [72:04] So surrender [72:06] eliminates that illusion of self. But [72:08] there's so many other nuggets in 12 [72:10] steps. Like one of them, just in the [72:12] middle of the steps, is when we are [72:15] wrong, promptly admit it. [72:16] Like [72:17] that's just a really good piece of [72:19] advice. And you know what? We could all [72:21] benefit. Politicians could benefit. CEOs [72:23] could benefit. Um people in [72:26] relationships, parents with their [72:28] children, people in in partnership could [72:31] benefit. Like when we're wrong, promptly [72:32] admit it. Promptly being the word. Not [72:35] eventually. [72:36] You know. [72:37] Um As soon as you know. Say you're sorry [72:39] and do it faster, you know, and do it [72:41] better. And uh the world would be a much [72:44] better place if everyone around said, [72:46] "When I'm wrong, I'm going to promptly [72:48] admit it." That's just one little gem. [72:50] There's so many [72:51] dozens more. Holiday. [72:54] Yeah. [72:55] She's been with you through [72:56] a lot. Yeah. Yeah. When I was looking at [72:59] the timeline of when you you guys got [73:00] together, I think you met in an acting [73:01] class, right? Yeah. It's been a long [73:04] time, almost four decades, right? [73:06] Hell of a long time. Yeah, we were in [73:08] acting class together in 1985. We [73:10] weren't together as a couple till '90, [73:12] '91 really, when she moved to New York. [73:14] But uh I wasn't even born then. [73:17] You've grown a whole Stephen in that [73:18] time. [73:19] [ __ ] [73:21] I was born in '92. So What does she What [73:22] does she What does she mean to you? [73:25] You're going to make me cry, aren't you? [73:27] You're going to try and make me cry. [73:28] know. I don't [73:29] You might hate her. [73:31] Um [73:33] She's everything to me. I mean, I'm so [73:35] blessed to have her in my life. Um she's [73:38] dealt with me when I've been a raging [73:39] [ __ ] [73:40] And she's dealt with me when I've been [73:42] depressed, when I've [73:44] when I've let my anxiety get the best of [73:47] me. [73:48] Um we've had a lot of ups and downs in [73:50] our marriage, and I think that's that's [73:52] really important for people to hear. [73:54] Like [73:55] uh I we're soulmates um [73:59] and uh I really wouldn't have achieved [74:03] anything that I've achieved without her [74:05] help and guidance and love and support. [74:08] And it you know, it all sounds like a [74:10] cliche, but it's just it's just the [74:12] truth. And she's [74:14] really the wisest person that I know. [74:16] She has a deep deep wisdom, and she [74:19] knows me better than anyone. So I'm just [74:22] grateful, and I tell her every day. I [74:24] tell her every day. [74:26] What What has she taught you about the [74:27] nature of what love is? [74:30] You know, it's interesting. She also had [74:32] a very traumatic childhood and a [74:34] difficult Her parents had a very [74:36] difficult situation, and she she had a [74:39] lot of [74:40] issues in her own way and her own [74:42] journey. I'll let her tell that story. [74:45] But um [74:47] she loves very naturally [74:50] in a way that it's a lot more work for [74:53] me. [74:55] So she just has [74:57] a big heart and is just able to love [75:00] our son and other people and animals. [75:04] And uh [75:05] You know, I [75:07] I always [75:09] felt I as an analogy I use in [75:12] in my in my books where [75:13] because I had such a weirdly fractured [75:16] childhood, [75:18] I would observe how humans interacted [75:20] and uh try and emulate that cuz I didn't [75:23] understand it. So if I would like [75:26] observe people in the lunch room at my [75:28] school and they'd come in and someone [75:29] would say like, "Hey buddy, how's it [75:31] going? You have a good weekend? Good to [75:33] see you." [75:34] And I would I would watch it and I would [75:36] I'm like, "Oh, that's that's how normal [75:38] people interact." And so I would I would [75:41] literally copy it and I would try it [75:43] out. And I'd go up to someone like, [75:45] "Hey buddy. Uh how you doing? Do you [75:48] have a good weekend?" [75:50] You know. So for me, I would felt like I [75:52] was an alien. Like I was literally like [75:54] a science fiction film where I was like [75:55] this alien like learning about human [75:58] behavior and interaction and like [76:00] studying humans and and seeking to to [76:03] fit in. [76:04] And [76:05] I bring this up because Holiday is uh [76:08] does this stuff so naturally, you know, [76:10] she just has a natural warmth and and [76:13] grace. Uh So and sometimes I emulate her [76:17] about oh, here's what it means to be [76:20] loving and and warm and uh and live life [76:23] with with grace. [76:25] You and me both. [76:27] My partner sounds exactly the same, and [76:29] I feel like I've learned how to love [76:30] someone by emulating the things she does [76:33] so naturally. The things she says, the [76:35] things she admits, when she says sorry, [76:37] how open she is, the her ability to tell [76:40] me her feelings. Mhm. All of these [76:42] things I've I've learned from just [76:43] watching that she seems to have no issue [76:45] or no resistance in doing it. [76:47] That makes sense. I've learned how to [76:48] parent from her so well. And our son, [76:51] uh bless him, Walter, he's [76:54] 18 and a half, about to go off to [76:55] college. Um [76:57] But I always want to [76:59] maybe lecture or react a little too much [77:03] or say the thing I feel that needs [77:05] saying. And And my wife is so good and [77:07] like she'll see me starting to do it and [77:09] she'll just be like [77:12] Just just this little thing and I'll be [77:13] like, "And I think Walter, you [77:16] Uh we'll we'll talk about it later." I [77:18] just I take my cues from her a little [77:21] like she's a conductor of my She's a [77:23] conductor of my parenting. Yeah. [77:27] Brian, thank you so much. We have a [77:28] closing tradition on this podcast where [77:29] the last guest leaves a question for the [77:30] next guest not knowing who they're [77:31] leaving the question for. [77:34] They leave it in the diary of a CEO. [77:35] That's good. [77:36] The question they have left for you. I [77:38] don't get to read it until [77:40] So give me a second. Handwriting is not [77:42] always great. [77:44] Can you recall a time when you [77:50] Observe He reads it. Observed someone [77:53] being treated badly and could have [77:56] intervened but didn't. [77:59] Uh [78:00] So what might you have done differently [78:05] if you could go back to that moment? [78:09] That's such an exceptional question. I [78:11] was reading a [78:13] uh [78:14] Someone was writing about bullying. [78:16] And they were talking about how bullying [78:19] is a three-step process. Like [78:22] you stop the bully. You say, "Hey, [78:25] that's not okay." Speak up to the bully. [78:27] Maybe don't get in a fight, but speak up [78:29] to the bully. [78:30] Tend to the bullied. [78:33] And then report it to an authority. [78:36] And we often just kind of view bullying [78:39] as like that first step process of like [78:41] trying to shut down the bully. [78:44] And [78:45] you know, back in the '70s and '80s when [78:47] I was growing up, uh there was a whole [78:49] hell a lot of bullying going on. And um [78:53] And I I feel bad that I didn't bully [78:57] myself cuz I was far too nerdy um to [79:01] partake in bullying, but [79:03] I That's any reason why. [79:07] Well, part of it was Part of it was [79:09] because I wish that I could have been a [79:11] part of that process of [79:14] uh especially people that had been [79:16] bullied to [79:18] uh I guess I just didn't have the tools [79:20] to [79:21] give them empathy and compassion and and [79:24] support. And and then to take an active [79:27] part in, you know, reporting this [79:30] whole dynamic to the authorities. Cuz I [79:32] when I go back uh I replay my high [79:35] school years and junior high and [79:37] elementary school years, it's it's [79:39] non-stop bullying. I mean, it was it was [79:41] taunting and teasing and you know, [79:44] taking the piss out and and demeaning [79:47] and belittling and um and hierarchies [79:51] and [79:52] uh we may be going a little too far in [79:54] contemporary society [79:55] uh about what qualifies as bullying cuz [79:58] it's not criticism and it's not even [80:00] necessarily like [80:02] having some good-natured fun, you know, [80:04] but uh [80:06] I wish I had been uh [80:08] I'm more actively [80:10] um a participant in kind of [80:13] a part of that three-step process. [80:16] It's super interesting. Never heard [80:17] about that three-step process before. [80:19] This particular individual, I don't [80:21] usually give clues, but uh [80:22] but um they're writing a book about [80:23] adult bullying as well. Mhm. Having been [80:26] on the receiving end of that, and they [80:27] think adult bullying is something we [80:29] don't really talk about a lot, which is [80:30] like the workplace stuff and [80:32] Mhm. [80:33] you know, as we get older. [80:36] Rainn, thank you so much. Um thank you [80:38] for so many things. My There's two real [80:40] really incredible things that um changed [80:42] my life in a really important way. The [80:44] first was obviously The Office, you [80:45] know. You were [80:47] by far my favorite character, and I [80:49] think the I just can't understand how a [80:51] human can be could have been so good at [80:54] acting. And I really mean that. Like, I [80:56] don't [ __ ] people, but you're so [80:58] good at acting. Playing that role of [81:00] Dwight. I think I there was occasions [81:02] where I tried to do it. Like, I tried to [81:05] So, it's almost it's it's comes as a [81:08] shock to many people that and you know [81:10] this cuz you kind of allude to it in the [81:11] in the first chapter of the book that [81:15] someone [81:16] that could embody Dwight can also write [81:19] such a great book like this about [81:20] something that is so far from what I [81:22] think Dwight might be interested in. And [81:24] it's actually all a testament to your [81:25] ability to [81:26] your ability to act. Really, really [81:28] unbelievable. I think your role as [81:30] Dwight is one of the all-time great [81:31] performances in any show like that. It's [81:34] it's [81:34] incredible, incredible. And you talk [81:36] about, as I said, in the 10th chapter of [81:38] the book about spreading joy. You gave [81:40] me so much joy. And then you came out [81:43] with this app called SoulPancake back in [81:44] the day, which caught me at the perfect [81:46] moment, where I was a young man that was [81:47] really obsessed with these big [81:48] questions. Still am. Um and it allowed [81:51] me to find this community where I just [81:53] peppered people with really profound [81:55] questions about whether dogs have, you [81:57] know, a soul and all these kind of [81:59] things that I was struggling with at the [82:00] time. So, thank you for both of those [82:02] things cuz you helped me in ways that [82:03] you'll never know, and I live tens of [82:05] thousands of miles that way, and it [82:06] changed just nudged the the direction of [82:09] my life in so many important ways, and [82:11] it's led me to this moment now, which [82:13] you can understand for me is an [82:14] incredible one. Absolutely incredible [82:16] one. So, thank you. Means a lot, and [82:17] everyone should go check out this book. [82:19] It's it's wonderful. It's super [82:20] accessible. It's it it kind of I don't [82:23] know how to describe this, but it [82:25] as as it relates to books that are [82:27] confronting this idea of the spiritual [82:29] revolution, [82:30] it takes it easy on you, and it holds [82:32] your hand across the bridge, you know? [82:33] And that that I think is important [82:35] because that person in the lorry or the [82:36] truck, that's exactly what they need if [82:39] they are going to access the wisdom in [82:40] this book. So, thank you, Rainn. [82:42] Steven, what a profound pleasure. Thank [82:44] you for having me on this show. [82:45] Congratulations on all the incredible [82:47] work that you do. [82:49] And um [82:51] thank you for acknowledging the fact [82:53] that you owe everything TO ME. [82:57] SO. [82:59] AND THAT'S A WRAP. [83:03] [Music] [83:04] A QUICK WORD ON HUEL. As you know, [83:06] they're a sponsor of this podcast, and [83:07] I'm an investor in the company. One of [83:09] the things I've never really explained [83:10] is how I came to have a relationship [83:12] with Huel. One day in the office many [83:14] years ago, a guy walked past called [83:15] Michael, and he was wearing a Huel [83:17] T-shirt. And I was really compelled by [83:19] the name. I thought I'd just thought for [83:20] a minute a design aesthetic point of [83:22] view it was really interesting. And I [83:23] asked him what that word meant and why [83:25] he was wearing that T-shirt. And he [83:26] said, "There's this brand called Huel, [83:28] and they make food that is nutritionally [83:30] complete and very, very convenient and [83:33] has the planet in mind." And he the next [83:35] day dropped off a little bottle of Huel [83:37] on my desk. And from that day onwards, I [83:39] completely got it because I'm someone [83:41] that cares tremendously about having a [83:43] nutritionally complete diet, but [83:45] sometimes, because of the way my life [83:47] is, that falls by the wayside. So, if [83:49] there was a really convenient, reliable, [83:51] trustworthy way for me to be [83:53] nutritionally complete in an affordable [83:55] way, I was all ears, especially if it's [83:57] a way that is conscious of the planet. [83:59] Give it a chance. Give it a shot. Let me [84:01] know what you think. [84:02] [Music] [84:22] [Music]