Cuddy Says Body Language Drives Mindset And Workplace Influence

Cuddy称肢体语言影响心态与职场影响力 采取舒展姿态可激活大脑的趋近系统，从而减轻压力、增强自主感，并建立说服他人所需的信任。 在本次访谈中，研究员 Amy Cuddy 解释了姿态与非语言沟通如何直接影响我们的情绪、冒充者心态以及他人对我们的看法。她指出身体与心智处于持续的反馈回路之中，并提倡进行细微的行为微调而非剧烈的大幅改变。最后，她分享了自己遭受学术霸凌的个人经历，并强调建立信任是施加影响力的先决条件。 非语言沟通在第一印象中占比至少达50%，它不仅是向外传递的信号，更是一种向大脑持续反馈安全感、自信或威胁感的身心双向内在闭环。 (0:00) 改变身体姿态能带来可量化的情绪与心理健康改善，舒展的肢体语言不仅能显著缓解重度抑郁与PTSD症状，还能激活行为趋近系统，提升掌控感与亲社会行动力。 (6:33) Amy Cuddy指出，“冒名顶替综合征”更应被称为“冒名顶替体验”，它并非病理现象，而是几乎跨越所有年龄、文化和职业群体的普遍人类心理共鸣。 (8:50) 识别虚伪与谎言的核心标志并非眼神接触，而是言语与肢体动作之间的“不同步（asynchrony）”；机械性地假装肢体语言极易露馅，真正的自信需要由内而外的自我认知转变。 (24:31) 经科学验证的自我肯定法主张将心理锚定在核心个人价值观上，而非空洞的口头鼓励；长期的个人改变应通过低阻力的行为“自我微推（self-nudges）”逐步实现，而非制定宏大且容易放弃的决心。 (36:45)

Harvard social psychologist Dr. Amy Cuddy argues that non-verbal cues function as a continuous internal feedback loop that shapes emotional agency, presence, and interpersonal trust. Rather than relying on superficial body-language tricks, sustained personal influence requires cultivating authentic presence and trust before asserting authority. The Bidirectional Mind-Body Feedback Loop (0:00) Cuddy refutes popular claims that 80% to 90% of human communication is non-verbal, clarifying instead that physical cues account for at least 50% of first impressions. Physical posture does not simply project signals outward; it acts as a direct feedback channel to the brain. Drawing on the facial feedback hypothesis—exemplified by classic experiments where holding a pencil between one's teeth induced positive affect—and Dr. Herbert Benson's research on deep abdominal breathing, Cuddy highlights how physical states trigger nervous system adjustments. This connection operates bidirectionally in clinical settings. Cuddy notes that holding expansive postures for just two minutes led to measurable drops in clinical depression scale scores, while expansive movement and yoga interventions studied by researchers like Emma Seppälä reduced symptoms in combat veterans with severe PTSD. Adopting expansive postures activates the psychological behavioral approach system, prompting individuals to perceive difficult situations as opportunities rather than threats and expanding cognitive flexibility. Authenticity, Asynchrony, and Micro-Nudges (24:31) Cuddy cautions against trying to consciously engineer body language from the outside in. Faking gestures, artificial vocal inflections, or forced eye contact creates non-verbal asynchronies—a visible disconnect between words and physical movements—that observers intuitively register as deceptive or off-putting. For instance, in high-stakes settings like investor pitches on Shark Tank or dating, over-rehearsed bravado often triggers distrust, whereas unpolished founders showing authentic conviction foster positive engagement. Rather than endorsing sweeping transformations or toxic mirror affirmations that provoke internal resistance, Cuddy advocates for self-nudging and evidence-backed self-affirmation theory. Grounding oneself before stressors by journaling about core personal values significantly dampens physiological stress responses. Paired with incremental micro-nudges—such as relaxing protective 'penguin arms' while public speaking or adjusting desk setups to prevent slouching—individuals accumulate small behavioral successes that organically align internal identity with external posture. Relational Signals, Power Dynamics, and Trust (43:32) While open postures such as forward leaning, exposed palms, and relaxed limb positions invite mirroring among social equals, power differentials trigger non-verbal complementarity. In hierarchical settings, a leader's expansive dominance often causes subordinates to shrink and withdraw. To encourage open communication, Cuddy explains that leaders must intentionally adopt warm, non-intimidating postures. Furthermore, non-verbal norms vary significantly across contexts; for example, direct eye contact signifies honesty in Western environments but can be interpreted as rude in East Asian cultures or aggressive among primates. In both negotiation and interpersonal relationships, Cuddy posits that trust serves as the necessary conduit of influence. Professionals who enter rooms seeking to immediately assert competence or dominate conversation often fail to move others. By listening, asking questions, and establishing warmth first, individuals establish safety and ensure their ideas will actually be received. The Social Dynamics of Resentment and Harassment Reflecting on her departure from a tenure-track academic post following the viral success of her 2012 TED Talk, Cuddy outlines the mechanics of adult bullying and targeted smear campaigns. She notes that targets rarely attract aggression solely due to external visibility; rather, workplace bullying concentrates on individuals with lower internal in-group rank who achieve outsized external recognition, thereby crossing the 'line of resentment.' Cuddy observes that primary instigators are typically driven by status-seeking within a zero-sum, scarcity-driven worldview. Perpetrators frequently deploy initial 'bully tests' to see if peers or leaders will object. When bystanders fail to intervene early, harassment accelerates into mob behavior. According to cited workplace statistics, over 90% of bullying targets ultimately leave their organizations through firing, resignation, medical leave, or suicide, underscoring the urgent necessity of active bystander intervention. Cuddy concludes that authentic personal impact cannot be manufactured through cosmetic shortcuts or the elimination of difficult emotional experiences like sadness, which Susan Cain's work highlights as foundational to empathy and depth. Instead, lasting agency and social connection depend on establishing trust first, practicing incremental behavioral alignment, and maintaining self-compassion when rebuilding from periods of prolonged defensive stress.

哈佛大学社会心理学学者Amy Cuddy指出，非言语身体语言不仅决定了人际交往中至少50%的第一印象，更通过双向的身心反馈回路深刻重塑个体的神经心理状态与自我认知；她主张通过微小的行为微调与基于核心价值的自我肯定实现由内而外的转变，并强调在人际沟通与职场环境中，建立信任与心理安全感必须先于展示权威与支配力。 身心双向反馈与行为接近系统 (0:00) Dr. Amy Cuddy驳斥了流行心理学关于身体语言占比八九成的过度夸大，指出非言语线索在第一印象中实际占据至少50%。更为关键的是，肢体姿态是向大脑持续发出内部反馈信号的闭环回路。当个体处于退缩或无力状态时，大脑会将外部挑战判定为恐惧威胁；反之，面部表情反馈实验（如咬铅笔强制收缩微笑肌群）与深层腹部呼吸（Herbert Benson在哈佛医学院证实其能平抑交感神经反应）可以直接转变情绪并降低生理应激。在临床与创伤干预研究中，持续两分钟的舒展姿态即可测量到重度抑郁症患者抑郁评分的改善，而结合扩张性体式的瑜伽训练在Emma Seppälä针对严重PTSD退伍军人的研究中，也成功帮助创伤者重建自主感并恢复社会生活。 从进化生物学视角分析，人类正式语言仅有15万至20万年历史，而灵长类及人类祖先依赖非言语肢体信号维系生存的历史达数十万年之久。Cuddy指出，当个体通过加大步幅、自然摆臂、放慢语速以占据时间空间并深呼吸进行“动态自我扩张”时，会激活心理学上的“行为接近系统”（Behavioral Approach System）。这一神经心理系统被激活后，个体的认知模式将从防御性的稀缺思维转向创造性的充裕思维，不仅会将外部挑战视作机遇而非生存威胁，还将他人视作潜在盟友而非竞争对手，并在面临突发事件时显著提升主动干预和救助的行动效能。 虚假表演的破绽与由内而外的真实表达 (24:31) Amy Cuddy强调，试图单纯通过机械模仿身体动作来操纵社交评价往往适得其反，其根本障碍在于“非言语不同步”（Asynchrony）。人类的非言语沟通高度复杂，涵盖音调、语速、面部微表情及肢体动作等多通道协同，刻意表演极难维持各通道的一致性。当言语表述与肢体信号脱节时，他人会产生本能的不信任感。例如在创投节目《Shark Tank》中，刻意展现过度自信的创业者常因微小的非言语不同步而遭投资人淘汰，而真诚展现内在信念感的创业者哪怕缺乏精英商业资历也能赢得信任。此外，Cuddy打破了“眼神回避即代表说谎”的普遍误区，指出眼神接触受文化差异严格制约，在东亚文化中长时间对视常被视为冒犯，在非人灵长类中直接凝视更是公开的挑衅信号。 在此基础上，Cuddy澄清了“假装直到成为”（Fake it till you become it）与通俗“假装直到成功”（Fake it till you make it）的界限：前者强调借助舒展姿态赋予自己直面挑战的生理勇气，直到这种存在感内化为真实的自我认同，而非通过欺诈来愚弄他人。在领导力与人际互动中，她特别指出应注意“互补效应”（Complementarity）——当权力不对等存在时，掌握权力者的过度霸气扩张会促使下属下意识地收缩躯体、陷入防御性沉默。同时，紧张演讲者常见的“企鹅臂”（上臂死贴躯干仅翻动手腕）会直接传递不安全感，从而引发听众的紧张与疏离反馈。 核心价值肯定与渐进式自我微调 (30:54) 面对冒充者体验与不安全感，Cuddy坚决反对在镜子前空喊“我是赢家”这类肤浅积极口号，指出这种做法容易引发内在认知摩擦，使人在自卑之外产生欺骗感。相反，经过实证支持的“自我肯定理论”（Self-Affirmation Theory）主张通过锚定真实核心价值构建内在安全感：练习者首先确立界定自身本质的2至3项核心价值观（如对音乐的热爱、忠诚或家庭），接着写下具体体现该价值的经历及当时的感受，随后再面对高压测试（如复杂的数学考试或辩论）。大量对照研究表明，锚定核心价值能显著抑制肾上腺素等应激激素的分泌，削弱外部压力带来的威胁感。 为了将这种心理安全感转化为长期效能，Cuddy主张通过“自我微调”（Self-Nudging）进行微小、渐进的行为改良，完全摒弃宏大而极易招致挫败的新年愿望。自我微调强调每次高压情境只改变单一细节——例如公开讲话时仅专注于平稳深呼吸或避免双臂环抱躯干。这一源自其导师Susan Fiske的成长理念，旨在帮助个体走出“带着恐惧接近、伴随焦虑执行、带着悔恨离开”的恶性循环，逐步转变为“带着信心接近、在平静中执行、带着满足离开”的良性螺旋。针对后疫情时代许多人因“应激耐受力”（Surge Capacity）耗竭而产生的心理退缩状态，Cuddy强调这一过程必须秉持自我宽容，通过小步积累切实证据来重塑个人内部叙事。 职场霸凌的心理机制与以信任为先的沟通 (75:27) 结合自身在TED演讲走红后遭受长期学术恶性霸凌的创伤经历，Cuddy系统剖析了职场霸凌的运作逻辑。她指出，职场霸凌大多并非由既定职权驱动，而是极少数被地位焦虑困扰的“首要霸凌者”为了掠夺社会资本而发起的破坏性行为。这类霸凌者深陷“稀缺思维”，将世界视作充满敌意的零和博弈，往往先发起小规模的“霸凌测试”探测环境风向；若旁观者沉默不语，围剿便会迅速升级。统计表明，超过90%的职场霸凌目标最终被迫离开原有岗位。Cuddy特别提出了“怨恨线”（Line of Resentment）理论：在组织内部资历较低但意外在外部获得巨大声誉的成员，极易被同侪视作“僭越”而成为靶子。 在组织领导与日常沟通方面，Cuddy提出了构建有效影响力的核心法则：“信任是影响力的载体”（Trust is the conduit of influence）。许多职场人士误以为进入新环境必须优先展现智识与支配地位，但未经信任铺垫的强势只会激发对方的防备壁垒。真正的掌控力源于策略性倾听——在沟通初期主动提问并寻求理解对方，不仅能获得关键信息，更能让对方感受到被尊重与重视，唯有在信任通道建立之后，后续提出的专业主张与观点才能被对方实质接纳。 Cuddy的理论系统论证了肢体语言在身心反馈、个人成长及人际沟通中的枢纽作用，指出持久的影响力来自于真实的身心同步与以信任为基础的情感连接，而非浮于表面的操纵技巧。然而，该论述在面对系统性组织阻碍时仍存在一定局限：诸如自我微调与姿态调整虽然能显著提升个体的内在能动性与抗压韧性，但在面对体制性霸凌、深层权力失衡或结构性恶性竞争时，仅凭个人非言语微调往往难以替代制度层面的旁观者干预与组织文化重构。

## Background 该视频由 YouTube 频道 The Diary Of A CEO（主持人为 Steven Bartlett）于 2023 年 8 月 31 日发布。本期访谈嘉宾为哈佛大学心理学家、以“高能量姿势”闻名的艾米·卡迪（Dr. Amy Cuddy）博士，节目聚焦于肢体语言如何塑造个人自信与外界人际吸引力，并深入探讨重塑自我叙事与建立深层信任的心理机制。 ## TL;DR 艾米·卡迪博士阐述了身体姿势向大脑传递神经反馈的双向机制，指出第一印象中至少有 50% 取决于肢体语言，并通过舒展体态与深慢呼吸能有效激活“行为趋近系统”（BAS），从而告别防御心态。她辨析了机械模仿技巧与“由内而外”重构自我叙事（self-story）的根本差异，揭示了言行不同步为何容易破坏真实感与人际吸引力。访谈后半段，卡迪动情回忆了曾遭遇同行学术霸凌与“社会性死亡”的至暗时刻，剖析了霸凌者背后的稀缺心态与地位争夺机制，并强调在商业与沟通中，信任而非争做全场最聪明的人才是撬动影响力的真正载体。 ## Atmosphere & style 对谈整体呈现出兼具严谨学术洞察与极高情感密度的深度访谈氛围。前半场聚焦行为科学与日常社交微习惯时节奏清晰明快、充满求知欲与方法论启发；进入中后段卡迪揭开遭遇学术围剿与被迫放弃终身教职的伤痛过往时，气氛骤然变得凝重而脆弱，甚至几度哽咽，展现了极强的真实感与创伤修复的坚韧力量。主持人巴特利特以极具共情力与敏锐度的倾听配合，使得整场对话在专业理性与温情抚慰之间自然流转，给予受众直击心灵的顿悟与共鸣。 ## Bulletin - [02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=129s) 第一印象中至少有 50% 取决于非语言信号，且身体姿态不仅向外表达，更通过双向神经反馈持续塑造大脑的认知与安全感状态。 - [11:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=691s) 舒展身体姿势可直接激活大脑的行为趋近系统（BAS），促使个体将外界挑战视作机遇而非威胁，并大幅提升行动力与旁观者干预意愿。 - [56:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3360s) 刻意伪装肢体动作必然因超出认知带宽导致言行不同步；唯有基于核心价值观重塑内在自我叙事，舒展的体态才会自然流露。 - [01:19:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=4750s) 职场与群体霸凌的核心动因在于对地位的争夺与零和稀缺心态，当事人在圈外突获巨大声誉往往会越过“怨恨之线”沦为围剿靶子。 - [01:23:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=5020s) 信任是影响力的核心载体，在谈判与沟通中真诚倾听以使对方感到被看见，远比争当“全场最聪明的人”更能促成合作。 ## Key takeaways - [02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=129s) 身体与心智存在双向反馈机制（Body-Mind feedback），舒展姿态、深呼吸及微笑等外在动作能反向向大脑传递安全信号，改善抑郁与创伤情绪。 - [07:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=440s) 语言诞生仅十余万年，人类在漫长演化史中对非语言线索保持着根深蒂固且高度敏感的直觉解读能力。 - [08:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=530s) “冒充者体验”（Imposter Experience）广泛存在于各阶层与文化中，本质是普遍的人性共情而非病理性的心理综合征。 - [11:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=691s) 高能量姿态不仅是静态动作，还包括迈大步幅、深长呼吸以及通过放缓语速来“占据时间空间”。 - [11:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=691s) 个人掌控感（Power To）会激活行为趋近系统（BAS），将心智从匮乏转向丰沛，并显著提高在危机中的主动行动力。 - [15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=900s) 耸肩塌胸、环抱躯干、紧绞脚踝等微小蜷缩动作是潜意识的防御信号，可通过晨起“海星姿态”拉伸等微习惯逐步改善。 - [18:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1136s) 重度低自尊与防御性蜷缩多源于创伤与霸凌，身心疗愈练习应首先在绝对安全的私人空间内循序渐进地开展。 - [22:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1347s) 私下打破对自己的承诺会严重腐蚀内在自我叙事，而更具积极正面自我叙事的人在生理与心理上往往更健康长寿。 - [24:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1471s) 判断不真诚的关键不是眼神对视，而是言语情绪与肢体情绪的“不同步”（Asynchrony），因为大脑带宽难以在说谎时完美兼顾全身信号。 - [31:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1873s) 有效的自我肯定（Self-Affirmation）并非对镜喊口号，而是梳理并书写真实践行核心价值观的具象经历，以降低应激激素水平。 - [36:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2187s) 相较于庞大而容易失败的远大目标，“自我微推”（Self-nudging）强调每次仅优化一个细微环节，通过小步现实证据积累真正的自信。 - [39:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2396s) 疫情长期的不确定性消耗了大众的“浪涌容量”（Surge Capacity），面对精神耗竭与生存防守模式，个体需要宽容与循序渐进的调整。 - [43:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2620s) 在权力悬殊的沟通中，上位者若展现过度支配性姿态会导致下位者产生互补性蜷缩退缩，唯有开放姿态才能打破心理防御。 - [47:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2861s) 眼神对视深受文化制约，长时间凝视在灵长类动物与部分东方文化中常被解读为侵略与挑衅信号，不可单纯作为真诚标准。 - [59:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3555s) “假装直到你成为它”（Fake it till you become it）区别于欺骗外界的做戏，其目标是借助身体力量影响内在自我、跨越冒名顶替感。 - [01:15:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=4527s) 首要霸凌者多由地位焦虑与稀缺零和思维驱动，若缺乏旁观者的早期抵制与干预，便会迅速演变为毁灭性的群体围剿与社会性处决。 - [01:19:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=4750s) 当原本在圈内地位较低的人在圈外突然获得跨量级的声誉时，极易越过内部的“怨恨之线”而沦为集体霸凌的集火目标。 - [01:23:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=5020s) 先发制人抢先定调并非良策，建立信任要求放弃“做全场最聪明的人”的执念，通过倾听让对方感到被理解和被看见。 - [01:25:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=5150s) 悲伤是人类身心自我修复与深度感知不可或缺的神圣信号，抹去悲伤也会使快乐与同理心失去存在的坐标与深度。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=0s) 肢体语言的力量与访谈引言 对话开篇直切主题：肢体语言是否真的那么重要？哈佛大学教授、权力行为科学专家艾米·卡迪（Dr. Amy Cuddy）给出了坚定的肯定回答。她指出，哪怕只是调整抑郁症患者的姿势，也能显著减轻其症状，证明了“微小的调整能带来巨大的改变”（tiny tweaks lead to big changes）。作为提出“高能量姿势”（power pose）并在 TED 创下历史第二高播放量演讲的学者，卡迪指出，姿势深刻影响着我们生命中最关键的时刻。 一个人的肢体语言往往会无意识地出卖自己。卡迪强调，我们对他人形成的**第一印象中至少有 50% 是基于肢体语言**。当我们感到彻底无力时，往往会把挑战视作威胁而非机遇，进而丧失创造力和真实自我。她的终身使命便是帮助人们重拾力量感与社交勇气。在随后的先导片花中，卡迪还触及了肢体语言与吸引力、约会情境的关联，并罕见且动情地提到了自己曾遭遇严重学术职场霸凌的阴暗过往——她直言那是人生中最糟糕的遭遇，甚至一度让她放弃辛苦建立的教职并闪过轻生的念头，至今依然对那些霸凌者心存恐惧。 随后，主持人向观众分享了频道的后台数据：自开播以来，有 69.9% 经常观看的观众尚未点击订阅。他真诚请求观众点击订阅支持频道，并承诺团队会持续精进内容质量作为回馈。 --- ### [02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=129s) 双向反馈机制：身体不仅向外界表达，也在与大脑对话 主持人提出，坊间关于肢体语言重要性的说法众说纷纭，常听到诸如“沟通中有 80% 甚至 90% 都是非语言的”这类数字，肢体语言是否真有那么关键？卡迪澄清，尽管具体数字常被夸大，但第一印象中至少有 50% 确实取决于肢体语言，甚至比例更高。 然而更关键的维度在于：**肢体语言不仅是我们对他人讲话的方式，更是我们在与自己的身体对话**。我们展现出的身体姿态会持续向大脑发送神经反馈信号，告知大脑当前的环境是安全还是危险、自己是受到威胁还是处于从容自信的状态。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 双向身心反馈模型 accDescr: 展示姿势表情与大脑神经状态之间的双向循环反馈机制 subgraph Body["身体层面 (Body)"] P["姿势与微表情<br/>(舒展姿势/微笑/深慢呼吸)"] end subgraph Brain["大脑认知与情绪 (Brain)"] S["神经系统反馈<br/>(安全感/力量感/放松状态)"] end P -->|"传入神经信号"| S S -->|"外显情绪表达"| P ``` 探究这种“身心反馈”（Body-Mind feedback）机制的最早研究源于对面部表情的探讨： - **面部反馈假设（Facial Feedback Hypothesis）**：人类拥有若干跨文化的基本面部表情（如微笑代表快乐、哭泣代表悲伤、睁大眼睛代表惊恐等），既然这些表情是天生且硬编码在大脑中的，神经回路就可以反向刺激——让受试者用牙齿横咬铅笔（强制牵动眼周与嘴角肌肉形成杜乡微笑），即便受试者知晓那不是真笑，其情绪也显著好转，对实验人员及眼前事物的评价均大幅提升。 - **呼吸与放松反应（Relaxation Response）**：当人面临课堂提问或公众演讲而感到紧张焦虑时，呼吸会变得急促且浅表，这是典型的“战或逃”（fight-or-flight）反应。而20世纪六七十年代，哈佛医学院的赫伯特·本森（Herbert Benson）在医学减压研究中证明，通过有意识地将呼吸调整得缓慢深长，可激活副交感神经系统，促发放松反应，令患者在面对压力手术时保持镇定。 - **姿势对抑郁症与创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的改善**：重度抑郁症患者仅需保持开放舒展的姿势几分钟，随后填写的抑郁量表分数便会明显下降；而在 PTSD 治疗中，引入能够打开胸腔与肢体的瑜伽姿势，也能显著缓解患者的创伤症状。这证明身心之间存在清晰的双向通道。 --- ### [07:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=440s) 进化视角下的非语言沟通：从史前演化到动物行为 随着讨论深入，主持人抛出一个趣味问题：语言究竟诞生了多少年，而人类又存在了多久？从演化史来看，智人大约拥有数十万年的历史，而复杂语言的诞生据估算仅有 15 万至 20 万年。这意味着，在长达数万年的演化空白期内，远古人类完全依赖观察彼此的肢体语言来判断意图，这一机制如同非人灵长类和其他动物一样古老且刻在基因深处。 卡迪分享了一个有趣的日常观察：她自家前院有一群极为活跃的松鼠。松鼠在沟通时既会配合特定肢体动作，也会发出不同音调的唧唧叫声（chirps）。卡迪查阅动物行为学（ethology）专家的文献后发现，与拥有接近初级语言体系、能指代具体威胁的鸟类鸣叫不同，松鼠的声音与动作并不具备明确的符号化词义，但它们构成了整体的“肢体语境信号”（body language signal），能极为高效地在同伴间传递“有捕食者威胁”或“求偶”等状态感知。这直观证明了非语言信号在生命适应与生存繁衍中的根基性地位。 --- ### [08:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=530s) 席卷全球的 TED 演讲：击中全人类的“冒充者体验” 主持人提到卡迪十年前发表的那场轰动全球的 TED 演讲，并指出其在当时成为了现象级的传播奇迹。卡迪纠正了一个细节：那场演讲是 **TED 历史上播放量第二高（the second most viewed TED Talk of all time）** 的演讲，并且长年稳居该位置。即便演讲已过去了十年，它目前每天仍有 5,000 到 10,000 次的新增播放量，并且卡迪每天仍会收到约 10 封来自陌生人的邮件，感谢她那场演讲犹如在直接对自己倾诉。 卡迪深度剖析了这场演讲能够跨越时间与文化壁垒引发共鸣的深层原因： - **冒充者体验（The Imposter Experience）的普遍性**：演讲最核心的内核触及了人们深层的无归属感与“冒充者”恐惧——总觉得自己不配待在现有的位置，害怕下一秒就会被戳穿。最初提出该概念的女性心理学家曾遗憾将其命名为“冒充者综合征”（Imposter Syndrome），因为“综合征”一词带有强烈的病理化暗示，而它本质上只是一种普遍存在的情感体验（Imposter Experience）。 - **跨越群体阶层的广泛投射**：卡迪收到的感谢信涵盖了极端多样化的人群：从美国第一代上大学的黑人大学生、身处精英阶层的瑞士白人男性银行家，到退休老人，甚至是年仅 12 岁觉得融不进集体的孩子。 - **被理解的释怀感与行动工具**：卡迪认为这场演讲之所以经久不衰，就如同人们听到一首直击心灵的经典歌曲，瞬间获得了被听懂、被看见的情感联结。它不仅让千万人明白“有这种自卑无力感极其正常，你绝不是孤单一人”，更重要的是提供了切实可行、能立即做出改变的身体调整工具。 ### [11:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=691s) 权力姿态蓝图与行为趋近系统 Amy Cuddy 解释了权力姿态（power poses）为何能引起广泛共鸣：它为那些感到无力、边缘化和缺乏归属感的人提供了一份切实可行的“行动蓝图”，无需任何高科技或外部成本，仅仅改变肢体便能直接重塑内在心理感受。最初的蓝图非常简单：在进入高压场景（如求职面试或项目竞标）前，找一个私密空间——例如在 TED 演讲中她未加排练、脱口而出的“卫生间隔间”（bathroom stall）——维持两分钟像尤塞恩·博尔特（Usain Bolt）夺冠时那样高举双臂的“胜利姿态”，或是双手叉腰的舒展站姿。 然而，她指出如今科学界对“舒展”（expansiveness）的理解已远比简单的静态姿势宽广得多。它体现在生活节奏的方方面面： - **行走**：迈出更大的步幅，手臂更自然自如地摆动。 - **语速**：放缓讲话节奏，这在本质上是“占据时间空间”（taking up temporal space）。 - **呼吸**：进行更深沉、更缓慢的腹式呼吸。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 肢体舒展与行为趋近系统机制 accDescr: 展示从身体舒展如何激活大脑行为趋近系统并带来认知与行为改变的流程图。 subgraph Input ["身体层面的舒展"] A["开放肢体 / 缓慢语速 / 深长呼吸"] end subgraph Internal ["心理与神经机制"] B["内在掌控感与自主感 (Power To)"] C["激活行为趋近系统 (BAS)"] end subgraph Outcomes ["认知与行为转变"] D["认知：视挑战为机遇，视他人为盟友"] E["心智：思维开放富有创意，丰沛心智"] F["行动：迅速采取行动，提高旁观者干预率"] end A --> B B --> C C --> D C --> E C --> F ``` 这些舒展方式能唤醒个体的掌控感（agency）与力量感。Amy Cuddy 强调，这里所说的力量并非“凌驾于他人之上的权力”（power over others），而是掌控自我的自主权（power over ourselves / power to）。在心理学层面，这种掌控感会激活**行为趋近系统**（Behavioral Approach System, BAS）。该系统一旦运作，个体面对世界的认知框架会发生彻底反转： - **视挑战为机遇**而非威胁； - **视他人为潜在盟友与朋友**而非掠食者或竞争对手； - **激发创造力**，摆脱认知狭隘，从匮乏心智（scarcity mindset）转向丰沛心智（abundance mindset）； - **降低防备心理并增强信任**。 最关键的是，掌控感会显著提升个体的**行动力**。不仅是为自己争取权益，在紧急情况下救助他人的“旁观者干预”（bystander intervention）研究中，个人力量感也是最核心的预测指标。感到有力量的人不会反复自我怀疑“我是不是该去插手”，而是会立即挺身而出。正如她总结道：“当我们展开身体并向前迈步时，整个世界也会随之变得辽阔。” --- ### [15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=900s) 觉察微小的蜷缩信号与日常生活自检 许多人终其一生都在无意识中向自己和他人释放“我很无力”的微弱信号。史蒂芬提到，绝大多数人对此类非语言线索完全处于“未知的未知”（unknown unknowns）状态——比如在演讲台上本能地蜷缩并躲在讲台后，全然不知这会对自身心理产生何种负面暗示。 Amy Cuddy 建议每个人对自己的身体状态进行一次“身体审查”（audit of the body）。她在大型演讲中常做一个实验：当她让台下观众“检查一下自己的坐姿”时，全场哪怕在灯光暗淡时也会立刻传来一阵调整坐姿的响动。但她会提醒大家“先别动，先觉察”，因为人们普遍误以为只有自己在聚光灯下表达时肢体语言才重要，却忽视了身体无时无刻不在向大脑发出反馈。 **典型的无力与防御信号包括：** - 耸肩并向前弓背，胸口向内塌陷内缩； - 手臂或双手紧紧环抱在躯干周围； - 紧绷地交叉双腿，尤其是将双脚脚踝互相缠绕绞紧（wrapping ankles）。 在职业体育比赛中，胜负队伍的肢体语言差异体现得尤为生动。即便是体格魁梧的顶级篮球运动员，在输球沮丧时也会抱头弓背、蜷缩前倾，虽然身体机能与五分钟前处于巅峰时毫无二致，但在外态上显得溃不成军。 想要打破这种状态，可以在日常微小习惯中引入调整： - **晨起拉伸**：全球约有 40% 的人习惯以婴儿胎儿姿势（fetal position）入睡。数据显示醒来保持胎儿姿势的人焦虑感更高（尽管两者互为相关）。因此早晨睁眼、脚掌落地前，不妨在床上主动舒展成“海星姿态”（starfish pose）伸懒腰。 - **日常微习惯**：有研究助理在刷牙时会有意识地单手叉腰；或是重新布置办公桌面，让自己在工作时必须展开手臂，避免整个人驼背窝在手机或键盘上方；以及在开车时注意是否过于贴近方向盘蜷缩身体。 --- ### [18:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1136s) 重度低自尊与身体对创伤的疗愈 史蒂芬分享了他身边一位极度自卑的朋友：该朋友极其自贬，进门就会下意识道歉（如“对不起我笑了”），在房间里总是尽量缩在角落甚至直接坐在地板上，把自己的存在感压到最低。史蒂芬困惑于这种深层心理创伤究竟该如何干预。 Amy Cuddy 评估这种表现已经属于极度低自尊，甚至在统计学上偏离平均值数个标准差。然而，临床心理学研究反复证实，“身心反馈”（body-mind feedback）对情绪极度低落的人群有着切实的疗愈效果。通过改变外在身体承载自己的方式，内在情感体验能够得到根本扭转。 最令人信服的案例来自针对患有创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的退伍军人研究： - **创伤体验**：许多经历战火的士兵深感自我破碎，认为自己的身体彻底背叛了自己，导致退伍后无法独立生活、长期寄居家中、难以维系职场工作和亲密关系。 - **干预措施**：耶鲁大学学者艾玛·塞帕拉（Emma Seppälä）等人引导这群创伤老兵进行舒展性呼吸训练与舒展的瑜伽体式（expansive yoga poses）。 - **长期反馈**：一年后的追踪调查显示，这些老兵的掌控感得到了惊人修复，纷纷反馈自己不仅搬出家庭独立居住，还找到了工作、重拾社交与恋爱生活。 Amy Cuddy 强调，很多在社交场合过度蜷缩的人，本质上是受到过创伤、袭击或霸凌，蜷缩身体是潜意识中的“自我防御机制”。因此，舒展身体的练习绝不应强求一开始就在公众场合表演给别人看，而应当从**绝对安全的私人空间**（如独处的家中）起步。在没有威胁的环境下先通过深呼吸与开放性姿态重新连结身体，再逐步将这种状态带入复杂的社交世界中。 ### [22:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1347s) 自我叙事的力量：你对自己许下的承诺 对话从人对自己的印象展开——最核心的往往不是我们在他人眼中如何，而是“我们如何向自己讲述关于自己的故事”。主持人提出了“自我叙事”（self-story）的概念：每个人内心深处都有一套关于自己是谁、自己有多大价值、自己擅长什么以及能力上限何在的故事，而这套叙事无时无刻不在支配着我们的生活，渗透在日常所做的每一件小事中。 为了具象化这一点，主持人分享了自己采访过的一位拳击世界冠军的故事。那位拳王透露，当他在家里独自跑跑步机时，如果原定计划跑完 7 英里，而在跑到 6.5 英里时腿部突然抽筋，哪怕忍受剧痛，他也一定会一瘸一拐地坚持跑完最后半英里。他之所以绝不提前停下，用他自己的话说，就是“不能让心魔趁虚而入”。这意味着，即便身处私密环境、没有任何外人会看到或知晓，他也心知肚明；一旦他中途放弃，他就会在自己的“自我叙事”中写下新的一段话——记录自己在面对艰难困境时是一个会退缩放弃的人。 由此引申开来，对自己撒谎会带来极其严重的心理损耗。说谎在人际交往中是对信任的瓦解，而在内心深处，对自己许下承诺却不断打破它，即便全天下没有一个人知道，也是对自我感知的毁灭性打击。这种对自我的失信，会直接让一个人陷入自我评价持续下滑的恶性循环。 ### [23:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1429s) 个人叙事与健康长寿的关联 Amy Cuddy 博士对此完全赞同，指出我们每个人都是自身叙事的主人。她提到了关于老年人身体健康结果与死亡率的一系列心理学与医学研究。研究人员发现，在控制了职业、生活背景等各种表面条件相同的情况下，那些对自己“如何一步步走到今天”拥有更积极、正面叙事的老年人，其预期寿命显著长于那些持有消极悲观叙事的人。 尽管这类研究从统计学上看属于相关性研究，但它有力地证明了内心叙事对身心健康的深远影响。当一个人在内心深处感到自己是无能为力的（powerless）时，他们往往无法在外界真实地展现自我（authentic），这在现实交互中会引发连锁反应。 ### [24:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1471s) 真实性与欺骗：肢体语言与言语的“不同步” 当一个人缺乏力量感时，比如在求职面试中，他们表现出的真实感往往远低于内心笃定强大的人。Amy Cuddy 解释道，缺乏真实感时所展现出的肢体语言，在光谱上与“公然欺骗”（outright deception）极其接近。 普遍大众往往误以为判断一个人是否说谎的关键线索是“眼神接触”（eye contact），但研究表明这完全是个误区。不同的人在不同的家庭文化、社会背景和性格特质影响下，眼神接触的习惯大相径庭，根本无法作为评判谎言的标准。真正至关重要的线索是——**言语所传达的情绪与肢体语言所表达的情绪之间的“不同步性”（asynchrony）**。 例如，当一个人嘴上讲述着一个开心的故事，但其肢体语言却毫无喜色，或者反过来，这种矛盾就会立刻出卖他。Amy 打了一个生动的比方：小时候为了逃学向父母撒谎说自己生病了，孩子口中描述着生病难受的悲伤故事，言语尽量装得逼真，但肢体语言往往会露出马脚——因为孩子心里其实正兴奋地盘算着不用去学校、可以躺在沙发上吃薯片、看电视重播（或者现在的 YouTube、TikTok）。当一个人无法做到真实时，其肢体语言与语言之间的割裂就与说谎如出一辙。虽然他们并无恶意害人，但这种割裂本质上源自对自我的欺骗，进而在面对他人时无法坦诚舒展。 面试官或观察者往往无法精准用语言剖析出对方到底哪里不对劲，他们不会说“噢，他的话语和动作不吻合”，但直觉会清晰地报警，觉得“这个人不太对劲、显得不够真诚”。因为说谎者可以在大脑中精心排练台词，但要同时编排全身所有的肢体语言去精准配合台词，对人类的大脑带宽（cognitive bandwidth）来说负荷过重，根本无法天衣无缝地伪装。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 言行同步性与真实感传达机制 accDescr: 展示内心叙事如何通过大脑带宽影响肢体语言同步性，最终决定外界对真实感与可信度的感知。 subgraph Internal ["内心状态与认知负荷"] A["自我叙事与力量感缺失"] --> B["试图刻意编排台词脚本"] B --> C["超出认知带宽限制\n(无法兼顾全身微动作)"] end subgraph Expression ["外部表达层面"] C --> D["语言表达的情绪"] C --> E["身体散发的情绪"] D -. "不匹配 / 脱节".- E D & E --> F["言行不同步 (Asynchrony)"] end subgraph Perception ["外部观察者感知"] F --> G["直觉感知异常\n('哪里不对劲')"] G --> H["判定为缺乏真实感 / 虚假"] end ``` ### [27:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1653s) 《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）中的真实信念效应 Amy Cuddy 举了一个绝佳的观察样本——商业真人秀《创智赢家》（Shark Tank）。在节目中，观众经常可以看到这样的对比： - 有些创业者登场时显得不可一世、超级自信，但他们讲述商业故事的方式与肢体语言完全脱节，评委投资人们（Sharks）能瞬间感受到那种别扭，甚至在镜头前肉眼可见地感到尴尬退缩（cringe），这类创业者往往拿不到投资。 - 另一些创业者或许没有光鲜亮丽的商学院学历，行业经验也不那么丰富，但只要他们具备合格的专业底线，并且发自内心地笃信自己所做的事业，那种毫无掩饰的信念与激情就会通过身体自然流露。 投资人们在面对后者时会情不自禁地身体前倾，表现出温暖与接纳，这类人拿到投资的概率也大幅提高。这种身体信号绝非短期伪装的把戏，研究显示，展现出这种真诚信号的人在长远来看也更具坚韧度、更具号召力、更容易获得晋升和成功。这一切的根源，依然始于“你在独处时如何向自己讲述你的故事”。 ### [29:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1748s) 肢体语言与吸引力：自信与开放的魅力 主持人随后探讨了肢体语言与异性吸引力之间的关系：对于单身且渴望寻找伴侣的人，是否存在某种特定的肢体语言能够提升吸引力？ Amy 阐明了学界与公众的一大认知误区。过去很多人怀疑女性如果展现出较为主导（dominant）的肢体语言是否会受到社会惩罚，但最新研究给出了令人欣慰的答案： - 无论男女，使用**自信且温暖（confident and warm）**的肢体语言都会大幅提升吸引力。这里指的并不是盛气凌人的“超级阿尔法”（super Alpha）霸道姿态，而是那种能够传递出“我自我感觉良好、我很愿意身处此处、且我对你很感兴趣”的舒展姿态。 - 一项针对约会软件个人资料照片的研究显示，无论是男性还是女性，只要照片中的身体姿势更为开放（open）、更显从容自信，都会被评价为更具吸引力。 人们天生渴望接近那些“自信而不傲慢、在自己的皮囊里感到自在从容（comfortable in their skin）”的人。即使在静止的照片中，这种松弛而笃定的状态也能被他人敏锐地捕捉到。 ### [31:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1873s) 走出虚假肯定：科学的“自我肯定理论”（Self-Affirmation Theory） 面对那些长期受困于内心无力感、自我评价低下的人，主持人询问是否存在具体的训练系统，能像去健身房锻炼肌肉一样重塑自我叙事。 Amy Cuddy 指出，社会心理学中最有效的研究领域之一便是**自我肯定理论（Self-Affirmation Theory）**。她特别澄清了大众对自我肯定的常见误区： - **无效的毒鸡汤模式**：大众常以为自我肯定就是站在镜子前反复喊口号：“我很棒！我是最强的人！我一定会赢！”然而心理学研究证实，当一个人内心极度沮丧脆弱时，对着镜子说“我很伟大”不仅毫无用处，反而会加剧恶化——因为大脑会立刻识破这个谎言，从而产生“我本来就糟糕，现在我还成了一个骗子”的双重挫败感。 - **科学的自我肯定操作法则**：成百上千项科学实验所验证的有效练习截然不同。其实验步骤如下： 1. **确立核心价值**：让受试者列出构成其核心人格的 2 到 3 项根本价值观或特质（例如“如果将这个特质从你身上剥离，你就会觉得不再是自己”的核心要素，如对音乐的热爱、对家庭的责任等）。 2. **书写具象经历**：对这些价值进行排序，挑选出最核心的一条，写下简短的两段话——一段描述自己曾经践行、表达该价值的具体时刻，另一段描述当时践行该价值时的真实内心感受。 3. **建立内在锚定**：完成练习后，哪怕立刻让受试者去参加毫不相关的压力测试（如极具挑战性的高难度数学考试或辩论赛），受试者的实际表现都会显著提升。 生理检测进一步表明，进行过科学自我肯定练习的人群，其体内的应激激素（如肾上腺素 epinephrine）水平出现了明显下降。这项练习的核心机制在于，通过将自我的存在牢牢锚定在无法被外界夺走的核心本质上，人在面对外部挑战与压力时便不再容易被焦虑击溃。 ### [33:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2000s) 自我肯定与积累经验：超越“对着镜子说谎”的虚假自信 在面对高压情境时，艾米·卡迪（Amy Cuddy）强调，核心在于让自己锚定在“你是谁”以及“你正在做什么”之上。比如在走进考场之前提醒自己：无论这场数学考试考得如何，走出考场时你依然是那个完整、真实的自己。当考试或挑战的成败不再定义个人的全部价值时，那种令人窒息的重要性反而会减轻，而这种心理放松往往会在不知不觉中让你发挥得更好。她建议大家花时间通过书写或日记探索自我：“你到底是谁？你的核心价值观是什么？不是别人如何评价你，而是究竟什么特质真正构成了你、什么事物能真正触动你的内心？” 史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此深有共鸣。他指出，市面上的励志学说往往分为两派：一派教人“站在镜子前对自己说一堆谎言”，卡迪随即表示自己非常反感这种做法；而史蒂文自己则属于另一派——基于“自我知觉理论”（Self-Perception Theory），通过不断跨出舒适区去积累切实的现实证据。当你看到自己一次次去做了某件事而且“并没有因此死掉”时，自信便会自然而然地生发出来。 卡迪赞同史蒂文的做法，并直言自己非常厌烦网络上泛滥的“全凭心态论”（Everything is your mindset）。很多人宣称只要在脑子里相信自己就能创造想要的人生，这种粗暴的口号不仅让大众困惑，更让人感到挫败。那些在几十秒短视频里看似轻易成功的人，背后往往有无数人的扶持与外界助力，甚至镜头之外的他们内心极度痛苦、只是在勉强摆出一副坚强的面孔。正如两人所总结的：“简单易懂的东西才好卖，简单粗暴的励志论调最有市场。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 假性肯定与真实自我建立对比图 accDescr: 对比单纯心理暗示与基于真实自我认知与行动的自信建立路径 subgraph FalseCamp["无效的励志模式"] F1["对镜念口号 / 假装心态"] --> F2["缺乏现实支撑与真实自我认知"] F2 --> F3["挫败、困惑与自我怀疑"] end subgraph RealCamp["扎实的成长模式"] R1["自我肯定：明确个人本质与价值观"] --> R2["踏出舒适区采取小步行动"] R2 --> R3["积累现实证据：我做到了且安然无恙"] R3 --> R4["形成稳固的内在自信与临场掌控感"] end ``` --- ### [36:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2187s) “自我微推”法则与苏珊·菲斯克的教诲 针对日常生活中因感到无力而陷入蜷缩体态的人群，卡迪提出了具体可实操的方法论——“自我微推”（Self-nudging）。她直言自己从不相信宏大的新年愿望（New Year's Resolutions），因为它们目标过于庞大、包含无数复杂步骤，人们注定会在半途中的某一处失败并彻底放弃。真正的转变来自于“下一次只比这次做得好一点点”。 卡迪回忆起自己在研究生一年级时的真实经历。在全系第一年研究成果汇报（First-Year Talk）的前一晚，她因极度恐惧险些退学。她哭着打电话给自己的导师——著名心理学家苏珊·菲斯克（Susan Fiske），绝望地说：“我做不到，我要退学。”然而菲斯克坚定地告诉她：“你不能退学。你必须去讲，哪怕讲得不完美——事实上它肯定不会完美——但只要你讲了，你就学到了东西，变得更好了一点点。以后每一次被邀请演讲，你都要毫不犹豫地接下。”正是通过这种每一次只跨出一小步的积累，卡迪最终迎来了质变。 当面对那些“以恐惧开始、以焦虑分心进行、以懊悔收尾”的困难情境时，卡迪给出的微推建议包括： - **每次只改变一个微小细节**：例如在害怕公众演讲或主持团队会议时，专注于放慢并加深呼吸，或者手里拿一瓶水、翻页笔，以此强迫双臂远离身体，避免双手环抱胸前的防御姿态。 - **掌控能够掌控的变量**：将精力从无法控制的“他人评价”转移到“自我表现”上。 - **摆脱遗憾的心态终局**：不要事后懊恼“他们根本没看清我是谁”，而是做到坦然离开考场或会场：“他们看到了真实的我是什么样子，至于他们如何评估，我无法左右，但我已经全力以赴。” --- ### [39:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2396s) 自信的向上/向下螺旋与疫情后的“浪涌容量”耗尽 史蒂文将自信、自尊与无力感描述为一种“自我强化的螺旋”。在表现良好的领域，正向反馈会带来更好的感受，促使下一次表现更佳，形成持续向上的螺旋；但在受挫的领域，人会陷入下行螺旋，甚至彻底退缩到“生存防守模式”（Survival Mode），为了规避一切潜在威胁而拒绝任何尝试，从而彻底切断向上攀爬的可能。 卡迪指出，当前深陷这种下行生存模式的人比三年前大幅增加，其深层根源在于新冠疫情对人类心理韧性的长期摧残： - **危机机制的生物学错配**：人类的神经系统生来是为了应对持续数月的突发危机，而非长达三年、反反复复的折磨（如从德尔塔毒株到奥密克戎毒株的不断拉扯）。人们长期处于一种“一只脚在安全区、另一只脚在威胁区”的临界状态（Liminal State）。 - **浪涌容量（Surge Capacity）的耗尽**：浪涌容量是指人体在急性危机中调动的生理与心理资源储备，通常只能维持一到两个月。这在战地士兵的研究中非常普遍——在初次遭遇战斗的紧急阶段，目标极其明确，团队配合最强；但随后进入漫长迷茫的间歇退缩期，失去目标与连接感，导致精神崩溃。 - **宽容与自我和解**：许多人在疫情初期感到高效，随后却陷入长期的倦怠与精神耗竭。卡迪强调，修复这些身心碎屑需要时间，此时最重要的不是严苛自责，而是对他人与对自己抱有一份宽容（Grace），接纳人类从未应对过此类长期危机的现实，从身体与心智的微小调整中重新找回力量。 ### [43:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2620s) 开放姿态与权力互补：如何通过肢体语言更好沟通 史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向艾米·卡迪（Amy Cuddy）提出了一个极具实操性的问题：普通人如何成为更优秀的演讲者、更好地展现自己，并在下属或播客访谈对象面前呈现最佳状态？史蒂文坦言，他在主持节目时会花费大量精力琢磨自己的坐姿——当自己不刻意注意时，常常会蜷缩成一团；而他最喜欢的状态是身体完全舒展、倚靠在椅子上，以一种全然开放的姿态面对嘉宾，因为他相信只要自己展现出开放，对方也会随之敞开心扉。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 肢体语言互动动态图 accDescr: 对比平等互动中的镜像模仿与权力悬殊互动中的权力互补现象 subgraph 平等互动 ["平等互动场景"] A["一方展现开放姿态"] -->|"自然同步"| B["另一方镜像模仿 (Mirroring)"] B --> C["建立深度信任与连接"] end subgraph 权力悬殊 ["权力悬殊场景 (权力互补)"] D["高权力者 (过于强势/支配)"] -->|"压制信号"| E["低权力者 (紧缩/退缩)"] E --> F["产生互补性防御 (Complementarity)"] F --> G["信息闭塞与对话封闭"] end ``` 艾米·卡迪完全赞同这种做法。她指出，最有效的肢体语言并不需要刻意编排，而是保持开放、身体略微前倾、手心向上，不要把自己紧紧包裹起来。这种姿态传递出的核心信号是：“我和你在一起感到舒适放松，我对你非常感兴趣。”在日常人际交往中，人们通常会通过“镜像模仿”（Mirroring）彼此的肢体语言来达到心理同步；但这种机制存在一个显著例外——**权力悬殊**（Power Differential）。当上位者展现出极具支配性的姿态时，下位者往往不会去镜像对方，而是会退缩得更加弱小，这种心理学现象被称为“互补性”（Complementarity）。因此，卡迪特别提醒管理者，当员工前来沟通时通常本就紧张，领导者必须时刻注意自己的肢体语言，切忌施加支配性姿态，否则对方会彻底封闭内心。 --- ### [46:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2762s) “企鹅手”与紧张情绪的负面共振 史蒂文提起卡迪书中第九章写到的一个词汇——“企鹅手”（Penguin arms），并好奇这究竟代表什么。卡迪解释称，很多人在公开发言或演讲时手足无措，常常把手腕紧紧扣在身体两侧胯部，仅靠手腕和手掌在外面小幅度扑腾，看起来就像一只企鹅。这是典型的怯场表现：发言者既想用手势表达，又极度害怕将双臂张开远离身体躯干。 - **空间占用与心理权力**：肢体占用的空间大小直接映射内心的力量感。“企鹅手”本质上是个体试图将自己缩得尽可能小，向外界传递出怯懦与不安全的信号。 - **与观众的负面共振环**：演讲者若动作僵硬紧缩，听众会敏锐捕捉到这种焦虑，进而也感到不适；演讲者从听众的紧绷反应中再度加深恐惧，形成恶性循环。 --- ### [47:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2861s) 眼神接触的多样性：文化差异与灵长类本能 谈到眼神接触（Eye contact），史蒂文分享了自己真实的交往困惑：当面对某些关系中存在未解矛盾、心中有话未说透的人时，他会极其抗拒与对方对视，常常避开目光或向下看。他询问眼神接触在沟通中到底有何深意，并感叹肢体姿态尚可假装，眼神接触却最难伪装。 卡迪表示眼神接触很难用单一法则概括，因为其规则受到极其强烈的文化制约： 1. **文化背景的截然不同**： - 在不少东亚文化中，长时间凝视对方被视为具有攻击性甚至冒犯，儿童从小被教育不得直视权威长辈的眼睛； - 在西方文化（如美国主流标准）中，不进行眼神对视则常被武断地判定为“撒谎”或“不真诚”，但美国人彼此对视的时间容忍度要显著高于东亚； - 甚至在同一种语言区域内部也差异巨大：史蒂文补充道，在美国电梯里被人注视通常意味着对方友善准备打招呼，而在英国某些治安欠佳的街区，若有人死死盯着你，你的第一反应必然是摸好钱包钥匙防范冲突。 2. **灵长类动物的生物本能**： - 无论是黑猩猩等大型类人猿还是其他非人灵长类，长时间直视对方双眼往往是宣战与侵略的直接信号（卡迪提及可参考罗伯特·萨波尔斯基 Robert Sapolsky 等灵长类专家的研究），代表着“放马过来”的挑衅。 --- ### [50:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3009s) 识别微表情与约会现场的“灾难观察” 当史蒂文询问是否可以系统学习如何读懂他人的肢体语言时，卡迪热烈推荐了前 FBI 特工乔·纳瓦罗（Joe Navarro）的经典著作《身体语言密码》（*What Everybody Is Saying*）。卡迪强调纳瓦罗立足于真实学术研究与一线实战经验，配有大量直观图解，非常适于深入理解人际互动本质；她同时也明确表示排斥那些教人“搭讪把妹”的市面读物。 这番话引出了史蒂文的一段年少趣事：他在 18 岁时由于哥哥网购填错地址，阴差阳错读到了一本关于“搭讪艺术”（PUA）的书。作为 A-Level 心理学学生的史蒂文当时坐在卧室地板上通宵读完了整本书，仿佛打开了一扇通往全新隐秘语言的大门。其中提到的“啄木鸟式入侵”（Pecking，指在酒吧等吵闹环境中因被吸引而过度将身体探入对方私人空间，暴露低价值感）让他至今记忆犹新。 卡迪随即笑着坦承自己也有类似的“职业病”：在餐厅里观察异性初次约会常常令她坐立难安，有时真恨不得在餐巾纸上写个“快跑！”偷偷递给对面的女士。她生动拆解了约会中那些极其典型的灾难表现： - **自恋式独白**：男方滔滔不绝、只顾吹嘘自己有多有趣，完全不向女方提问或倾听。 - **空间压迫与防御性蜷缩**：男方身体极度前倾、霸占过多桌面空间；而对面的女方虽然出于礼貌并未立即起身逃离，但肢体早已彻底紧绷、收缩防守，试图在微观层面上缩小自己的存在以逃避侵入。 ### [53:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3211s) 约会中的微表情与真实互动的体态信号 当人们在互动中感到抗拒、想要逃离时，往往会出现嘴唇紧抿（lip presses）的动作，并且身体会下意识地收缩，把身躯缩得更小。艾米·卡迪（Amy Cuddy）分享了一个生动的例子：前一天晚上看相亲真人秀《单身女郎》（The Bachelorette）时，一名男嘉宾一把搂住女主角拥抱，女主角虽然出于礼貌没有猛烈推开，但那一瞬间的紧抿嘴唇和不自觉的肢体抗拒让明眼人一眼就能看出“她真的非常反感，离得太近了”。这种表面维持礼貌、身体却在抗拒的场景让人不忍直视。 在餐馆观察情侣则是另一个极具心理学趣味的场景。斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）笑称他和女友都热衷于在餐厅暗中观察旁边的情侣：他们是初次约会吗？在一起多久了？彼此真的合拍吗？最糟糕的表现莫过于双方都身体后倾、低头自顾自地刷手机；而真正相互吸引的情侣则展现出截然相反的状态： - 双方把手机完全搁置在一旁，身体自然向彼此前倾（leaning in）。 - 保持良好平衡的眼神交流与对话节奏。 - 面部流露出真诚的好奇心，当听到对方说话时，整张脸都会“亮起来”，神情专注且兴致盎然。 - 当其中一方起身去洗手间时，留在座位上的人的反应是极其关键的试金石：如果留在桌前的人忍不住抿嘴偷笑、笑到脸颊发酸，甚至在偷偷给闺蜜发信息时都掩饰不住满脸的幸福，这说明他们并非在做戏，而是在独自一人时彻底释放内心的狂喜。此外，整理头发、确认体香等细微的梳理举动（grooming signals），也都是对对方极度心动的自然流露。 --- ### [56:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3360s) 伪造肢体语言为何注定失败？“由内而外”的根本转变 面对“我们能否伪造良好的肢体语言”这一问题，艾米·卡迪直言不讳：你可以尝试，但这通常行不通。人类的非语言交流信道繁复庞大，涵盖副语言特征（paralinguistic cues，如语调、音域、说话语速）以及手指、双手、手臂和躯干等微动作，要将这些所有通道与所说的话天衣无缝地协调起来，难度高到几乎只有顶尖演员才能勉强做到。普通人去伪装肢体语言极容易出现“不同步”（asynchronies），露出破绽，因此既不真诚也极易翻车。 斯蒂芬·巴特利特对此深有共鸣。他回忆自己在 14 到 21 岁之间几乎被所有追求过的女性拒绝，当时自认“价值极低”。他曾疯狂阅读各类搭讪艺术（PUA）书籍，机械地尝试书中的各种套路和技巧（例如故意推迟回复短信、刻意摆出特定姿势等），但无一例外全部失败。直到他真正改变了对自己的内在看法，人生才发生了质的飞跃。人类进化了数十万年，对他人言行与真实内心的微妙偏差具有极其敏锐的直觉感知。你自以为能控制三四个肢体小技巧，但在成百上千个泄露真实情感的微小信号面前根本无济于事。 非语言专家将这种蜕变区分为**由外而内（Outside-In）**与**由内而外（Inside-Out）**的变化： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 肢体语言改变机制对比 accDescr: 对比由外而内的技巧伪装与由内而外的自我故事转变两种路径 subgraph OutsideIn ["❌ 由外而内 (Outside-In)"] A1["机械模仿肢体技巧 / 话术"] --> B1["试图同时控制多重非语言通道"] B1 --> C1["信号不同步 (Asynchrony)"] C1 --> D1["进化直觉识破虚伪 / 结果失败"] end subgraph InsideOut ["✅ 由内而外 (Inside-Out)"] A2["重塑自我认知 (Self-Story)"] --> B2["产生内生自信与安全感"] B2 --> C2["自然呈现舒展协调的体态"] C2 --> D2["赢得深层信任与真实人际连接"] end ``` 许多人点开视频或播客是希望拿到一整套立竿见影的“肢体小把戏”，但艾米明确表示自己不会提供这种速成伎俩，因为如果不改变内在，这些技巧毫无价值。只有当一个人在内心深处改变了关于“我是谁”的自我故事（self-story），无论走到哪里，整副身躯的站立方式与散发的气场才会自然而然地焕然一新。 --- ### [59:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3555s) “假装直到你成为它”：从取悦他人到直面自我 艾米·卡迪澄清了她最广为人知的名言——“假装直到你成为它”（Fake it till you become it）与传统的“假装直到你成功”（Fake it till you make it）之间的本质区别： | 理念 | 核心取向 | 目标与结果 | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **Fake it till you make it**<br>（假装直到你成功） | **欺骗外部他人** | 假装掌握自己不懂的知识、假装成另一个人去混过面试；拿到职位后依然心虚，不得不继续戴着面具假装下去。 | | **Fake it till you become it**<br>（假装直到你成为它） | **影响内心自我** | 借助舒展有力的姿态让自己体会到力量感，将注意力从“给别人留下什么印象”转移到“对自己产生什么印象”，战胜冒名顶替综合征，最终与理想中的自己合二为一。 | 卡迪再次提到了她在 TED 演讲中分享的那位女学生：这名来自偏远小镇的学生因自认不属于名校而深陷“冒名顶替综合征”，整个学期未曾发言面临挂科；卡迪鼓励她后，她在最后一节课勇敢举手发表了惊艳全座的高见。毕业后，这名学生进入了教育界，一年后特地回访卡迪并欣喜地倾诉：“我践行了我们当时讨论的方法，我意识到我不是在‘假装直到我成功’，而是在‘假装直到我成为它’，现在的我就是我一直想成为的那个人。” 老一辈人常训诫孩子“坐直身体”作为对长辈的尊重，孩子们往往很抗拒；但若引导孩子坐直是作为**对自己的尊重**，意义便截然不同。舒展身形、采用高力量姿态，能让人减少防御心，直面自己的真相。直面内心的自我需要巨大的勇气，而充满力量的体态正是在生理上唤醒直面自我、重新认识自我的胆识与底气。 --- ### [01:02:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3730s) 播客中场公告：新书发布与赞助商故事 斯蒂芬·巴特利特在节目中分享了一个重要里程碑：《CEO日记》新书《商业与人生的33条法则》（*The 33 Laws of Business & Life*）于当天正式出版发行。他耗时数年撰写、凝聚了长达十五年的商业与生活经验积累；他强调，若有人渴望在人生中打造伟大的事业——无论是带出一支职场团队、组建体育运动队、经营企业还是创立慈善机构，核心都离不开读懂人性、善于讲述故事以及最重要的：深刻理解自己。他提到购买新书并在社交媒体分享的前 30 位读者将获赠特别定制的金版典藏书。 随后，斯蒂芬谈及本期播客赞助商 Huel 的渊源。作为该品牌的投资者与长期合作伙伴，他回忆起这段缘分的开端：多年前在办公室里，一位名叫迈克尔（Michael）的同事身穿印有 Huel 标志的 T 恤走过，那个极具视觉冲击力的 Logo 瞬间吸引了他的注意，促使他开启了对该品牌长期的关注与商业投资。 ### [01:03:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3815s) 赞助插播：Huel 与便捷营养生活 Steven Bartlett 谈到了节目的赞助品牌 Huel。他回忆起最初在办公室看到有人穿着一件设计很有美感的 T 恤，上面印着 Huel 的标志。在好奇询问后，对方告诉他这是一家专注于提供全面营养、极致便捷且兼顾地球环保的食品品牌。第二天，这位同事便在他的办公桌上留下了一小瓶 Huel 饮料。 从那天起，Steven 彻底理解并喜欢上了这款产品。他坦言自己极其重视日常膳食的全面营养，但由于快节奏的工作与繁忙的生活，规律健康的饮食往往被搁置一旁。对于同样在忙碌中寻求一种可靠、便捷、平价且具备环保意识的全面营养解决方案的人，他强烈推荐尝试一下 Huel。 --- ### [01:04:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3857s) 学术霸凌与“社会性死亡”的创伤 访谈切入了一个极其沉重而关键的话题：Amy Cuddy 过去所遭遇的学术霸凌。Steven 指出，这一充满伤痛的人生章节不仅深刻改变了她，也成为她当前写作和研究的重要基石。谈及当年的遭遇，Amy 的情绪极为激烈，她直言：“我宁愿承受任何肉体上的剧痛，也绝不想再去经历一次那种折磨。”这场噩梦持续了数年之久，霸凌者长年累月地贬低、羞辱和污名化她，以至于她在学术圈内外彻底沦为任何人都可以肆意攻击的“合法靶子”。 Amy 特别强调，这绝非网络上匿名的无名键盘侠所为，而是同行学者指名道姓、充满人身攻击意味的围剿。她收集的社交媒体霸凌证据堆积如山，自己甚至至今都不敢亲自去翻看，只能委托他人代为整理。在她为新书采访的诸多成年霸凌受害者中，几乎所有人都异口同声地表示这是他们生命中最痛苦的经历。这种霸凌带来的是彻底的“社会性死亡”（social death）——人类作为高度依赖群体归属的物种，一旦被社群放逐和孤立，身心便会陷入极度的崩溃。 更让 Amy 痛心的是，她人生的基本事实被生生剥夺，个人叙事被恶意篡改。很长一段时间里，她每次接受采访都必须耗费精力去澄清外界漫天飞舞的虚假信息。她不得不一遍又一遍艰难地重构自我叙事以求在精神上活下去。这种持续的摧残重创了她的情感、学术声誉乃至整个家庭，甚至让她多次产生轻生自杀的念头。她指出，职场霸凌的普遍程度与杀伤力令人发指： - **职场受害者“消失率”超过 90%**：霸凌研究数据显示，超过 90% 的职场霸凌受害者最终会离开原岗位——他们要么被霸凌者反咬一口扣上“难以相处”的帽子而遭解雇，要么被排挤调岗，要么因无法忍受而主动辞职，更有甚者因高压诱发身心疾病离世或选择自杀。 - **高自杀风险**：无论是在成年人职场霸凌还是青少年校园霸凌中，受害者的自杀率都居高不下。 - **不可磨灭的虚假信息**：霸凌者散布的谎言甚至渗透进了正规新闻报道，即便事过境迁，这些虚假说辞仍会时不时浮现，每一次听到“但我听说你当年做了某某事”的质疑，都宛如一把匕首再次刺入心脏。 --- ### [01:08:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=4127s) 紧闭家门后的至暗时刻与放弃终身教职 当 Steven 问及那段时期如果走进她的家会看到什么景象时，Amy 几度哽咽、难以自抑。她坦言自己内心深处至今仍充满恐惧，甚至害怕那帮霸凌者听到这段采访后，会嘲讽她是在无病呻吟和夸大其词。当时，她一边承受着精神崩溃的剧痛，一边抚养着正值青春期的儿子。她每天都在极度纠结：究竟该对儿子坦白多少，又该如何竭尽全力保护他不被波及。幸运的是，儿子最终成长为一个善良温和的人，但在儿子最关键的成长岁月里，她却常常被霸凌的阴霾所吞噬，难以全身心地陪伴。 她的丈夫作为一名科学家，比领域内大多数人都更懂得严谨的统计学逻辑，因为心疼妻子，他曾试图在网络上亲自下场与霸凌者理性争辩，然而这种介入不仅没能平息事态，反而招致更恶劣的升级围攻，使丈夫同样遭受了严重的心理创伤。在家中，Amy 常常绝望地蜷缩成一团，几乎每天都在对家人哭诉“我觉得自己快要死掉了”。极其荒谬而反差的是，当时她依然要外出做公开演讲，而在台上面对观众的那一个小时，反而成了她唯一感到安全、不受侵害的避风港；演讲一结束，她又必须迅速躲回自己的阴影中。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 职场霸凌与创伤演变路径 accDescr: 展示学术与职场霸凌从个体心理、外部攻击到受害者家庭创伤及职业损失的演变过程。 subgraph Phase1["施暴与围剿阶段"] A["首要霸凌者蓄意挑起攻击"] --> B["散布虚假信息与污名化"] B --> C["同行及群体跟风围剿"] end subgraph Phase2["家庭与身心重创"] C --> D["个人遭遇社会性死亡 / 濒临轻生"] D --> E["家庭承压：配偶抗辩受创 / 艰难抚育子女"] end subgraph Phase3["不可逆的现实代价"] E --> F["被迫放弃终身教职体系"] F --> G["流言长存：后代与圈内持续受波及"] end ``` 谈到离开学术界，Amy 严正澄清了一个被霸凌者广泛传播的谣言——外界声称她是“评终身教职失败被哈佛扫地出门”。她斩钉截铁地说明，自己曾获得过两次晋升，拥有无可挑剔的优秀研究记录，当时的学院院长也对她给予了极大的支持；她完全是自己主动选择离开终身教职轨道的。因为那座学术殿堂已经被恶意的毒气所弥漫，如果继续留在那个充斥毒素的环境里，她可能会付出生命的代价。 虽然她坦承现在的自己从长远来看比以往更快乐，但被强行剥夺的人生轨迹依然是一场无法抚平的哀伤。她将这种痛苦比作年轻时痛失挚爱：“就像你的配偶在年轻时早逝，几年后你再婚并过上了幸福的生活，甚至比以前更幸福，但你永远无法停止悼念死去的第一个人。”这场霸凌不仅毁掉了她继续深入研究性别歧视与种族偏见的学术蓝图，连带她的合作者也遭受了无休止的折磨。更令人啼笑皆非又心酸的是，就在最近半年，她儿子的两位选修心理学课程的大学好友，竟然在课堂上赫然学到了当年攻击 Amy 的那些捏造教材，流言仍在以一种体制化的方式继续流传。 --- ### [01:15:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=4527s) 首要霸凌者的心理动机：地位渴望与怨恨 面对 Steven 关于霸凌者究竟意欲何为的追问，Amy 确认了对方的核心目的就是全方位抹黑她的人格、动机与科研成果，并彻底阻止她继续发声与开展工作。根据她深入的学术研究与访谈，她剖析了职场霸凌幕后的心理机制。 Amy 指出，群体霸凌的源头通常只是一小部分被称为“首要霸凌者”（primary bullies）的人： - **孤狼与群狼的区别**：单独存在的首要霸凌者往往只是满腹牢骚、讨人厌的边缘角色；但他们极擅长煽动与拉拢他人，一旦成功招募到跟风者，就会迅速演变成一场毁灭性的集体霸凌。 - **惯犯特征**：这类首要霸凌者往往具有重复作案的恶习，在职业生涯中会不断寻找新的猎物。 - **核心动机源于地位渴求与嫉恨**：他们的根本动机是对“地位与认可度”（status and recognition）的病态渴求。这些人内心深处认定自己才华横溢却未获应有的回报，因而极度怨恨那些被他们视作“获得了超额荣誉与关注”的人。一旦他们认定某人“不配”拥有目前的声誉，便会开始暗中发起细微的试探性攻击，逐步拉开围剿的序幕。 ### [01:16:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=4585s) 霸凌者的心理动机：地位争夺与稀缺心态 Amy Cuddy 深入拆解了霸凌者（Bullies）的内在运作机制。霸凌行为在初期往往是一场“试水测试”：霸凌者会先抛出攻击性的言行，观察周围环境是否默许这种行为；如果周围无人反击或制止，局势就会迅速升级。Amy 带着遗憾感叹，如果当时有更多旁观者能够立即站出来表明“这不可以”，局面绝不会恶化到无法挽回的地步。她指出，霸凌的真正驱动力往往不是权力（Power），而是**地位（Status）**——霸凌者通过剥夺受害者的地位来垫高自己的地位。现实中许多人虽然手握大权，却依然觉得自己在地位和认可上受到了亏欠，因而产生霸凌冲动。 进一步剖析霸凌者的思维模式，他们普遍具有根深蒂固的“稀缺心态（scarcity mindset）”，将世界看作一场零和博弈（Zero-sum game）。在他们的认知里，蛋糕是固定大小的，如果别人赢得了赞美、认可或成功，就意味着直接抢走了本该属于他们的份额。Amy 引用了爱因斯坦的名言：“人一生需要为自己回答的最重要问题，就是‘这个宇宙从根本上说是敌对的还是友善的？’”一个人对这个问题的答案，会直接塑造他的工作方式、待人接物以及追求的目标。霸凌者正是那些认定世界本质上极度敌对的人。 与此同时，Amy 澄清了关于霸凌的几个经典心理学误区： - **“受霸凌者长大后会变成霸凌者”并非普遍规律**：虽然少数人会如此，但绝大多数被霸凌过的人并未变成霸凌者；相反，现实中那些被称为“勇敢之心（Bravehearts）”、敢于挺身对抗霸凌的旁观者，往往自身就曾经历过霸凌。 - **霸凌者并非因为“自卑脆弱、夜不能寐”才去攻击他人**：相反，他们在夜晚睡得安稳得很，内心坚信自己所做的一切都是绝对正确且正义的。 - **旁观者早期干预的关键性**：霸凌一旦全面升级为有组织的围剿运动（Bullying campaign），受害者在社会意义上就会被彻底“社会性处决（socially killed）”。 --- ### [01:19:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=4750s) 越过“怨恨之线”：为什么成功者会成为被围剿的靶子？ 针对主持人提出的是否“人一旦成功就必然招致霸凌（职业风险）”的疑问，Amy 做出了精辟的辨析：成功人士遭遇“黑粉（Haters）”确实极度普遍，但单纯的敌意并不一定会演化为全方位的职场或群体霸凌。真正的危险爆发点，在于当事人在“圈内群体（in-group）”与“外部世界”之间的地位出现了严重不对称。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 越过怨恨之线引发霸凌的机制 accDescr: 展示群体内地位低下的人获得外部巨大声誉后越过怨恨之线导致被霸凌的路径 subgraph StatusMismatch["地位严重错位"] A["内部圈子 (In-Group)<br/>地位低于平均水平 (如初级研究员)"] B["外部世界 (World)<br/>获得巨大关注与赞誉 (如TED演讲爆火)"] end C["越过'怨恨之线'<br/>(Line of Resentment)"] D["被圈内认定为'越界/抢夺地位'"] E["成为集火围剿的目标<br/>(Viable Target)"] A --> C B --> C C --> D D --> E ``` 在群体心理机制中，最容易沦为霸凌靶子的人，通常在原本的行业或专业圈子内处于平均线之下的较低地位（例如当时的 Amy 仅是一名初级研究员，并非资深权威），却突然在外部世界斩获了跨量级的声誉与关注（TED 演讲破纪录爆火）。这种外部跃迁直接越过了学术界或行业内部研究者所谓的“怨恨之线（Line of resentment）”。圈内资深或核心成员会觉得“这人凭什么配得到这么多关注”，从而产生强烈的“把她拉回原位”的冲动；反之，若一个人原本在圈内就位高权重，再在圈外获得荣誉，受到围剿的概率反而要小得多。 主持人用中学时期的校园人际关系类比验证了这一逻辑：一个在学校里处于边缘、人缘并不拔尖的学生，如果突然在校外成为大明星或爆火全网，学校里的核心小团体往往不会为他欢呼，反而会合谋“必须把这小子整下去”。两人谈及很多年少成名的明星在学校反而饱受霸凌的怪象，核心根源正是“你在圈子里本不配拥有这等光芒”。尽管主持人一度感叹“踩低拔高、散布谣言拉人下水”是否属于无法更改的人性弱点，Amy 却表达了坚定的乐观态度。她强调，正如人类社会不再容忍种族歧视、性别歧视或年龄歧视一样，只要大众理解了霸凌的解剖机制与早期征兆，培养敢于干预的“社交勇气（Social bravery）”，建立起不容忍霸凌的文化激励体系，这种群体病态完全可以被逆转。 --- ### [01:23:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=5020s) 影响力的真正载体：先建立信任，而非争做全场最聪明的人 当被问及本场对话中最重要、最应深入强化的议题时，Amy 聚焦在了“信任（Trust）”的底层逻辑上。她观察到商业领域中充斥着一个致命误区：许多人走进会议室或谈判桌时，满脑子想的都是必须展现绝对的自信，争当“全场最聪明的人（smartest person in the room）”。他们为了彰显专业与能力，彻底牺牲了展示自身可靠与值得信任的机会。 Amy 郑重指出：“**信任是影响力的载体（Trust is the conduit of influence）。**”这绝非虚无缥缈的软性说教，而是颠扑不破的硬核心理机制。如果你一进门就开始滔滔不绝地单向输出，既不倾听对方，也不了解对方的关切，对方根本感受不到你的在意；此时哪怕你端出全世界最绝妙的方案，也只是狠狠砸在一堵毫无反应的砖墙上。要想撬动他人，必须先建立信任通道。 而在具体实践中，建立信任的核心窍门在于：**放弃“必须先发制人、抢先控场”的执念。** - 无论是在日常商务对接还是关键谈判中，许多人误以为必须由自己率先定调、抛出锚定点（Drop the anchor）； - 实际上，更高效的做法是先发问、真诚地聆听并了解对方； - 倾听并不意味着放弃权力或地位，它不仅能向对方传递充分的尊重与理解，还能让你获取大量底层情报； - 唯有当对方“感到自己被真正看见（feel seen）”之后，你后续给出的任何解决方案和回应，对方才会坚信那是建立在对他们的理解之上，沟通的阻力也会随之消弭。 --- ### [01:25:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=5150s) 最终问答：如果世界有一剂能消除悲伤的解药，该研发它吗？ 节目进入经典收尾环节：由上一位未曾谋面的嘉宾为 Amy 留下一个深度哲学问题：“如果人类研发出了一种可以治愈悲伤的药物，从此让人类再也无需体验悲伤，你会支持研发这项解药吗？” 面对这个发人深省的问题，Amy 稍作沉吟后坦率回答：她坚决反对彻底消灭悲伤，她更愿意选择“苦乐参半（Bittersweet）”。她再次提及苏珊·凯恩（Susan Cain）的著作《苦乐参半》（Bittersweet），阐释了允许自己体验悲伤、进行哀悼对于人类精神世界的深刻疗愈价值——就像人类之所以会沉浸于悲伤的旋律并从中获得慰藉一样，哀伤本身就是心灵自我修复与深度感知的必需过程。 主持人对这一观点极为赞同，指出一个没有悲伤的世界将是可怕的；冷与热、喜与悲互为坐标，缺失了悲伤，快乐也将失去其存在的对照与意义。Amy 补充道，悲伤实际上是生命赋予我们的神圣信号（Human signal），是身心在最本真状态下向我们发出的呼唤与提醒。 ### [01:27:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=5226s) 职场霸凌、旁观者现象与温情致谢 在对话的尾声，两人就情绪与同理心的本质达成共识——负面情绪实际上是一种重要的信号与信息，促使人们感受共情与慈悲，并激发出援手助人的意愿。主持人对艾米·卡迪（Dr. Amy Cuddy）表达了由衷的感谢，坦言在研读她的学术著作与演讲视频的过程中受益匪浅，而在长达近一个半小时的现场对谈中，自己更是经历了数次深刻的“个人顿悟”（personal epiphanies）。 随后，主持人特别提到了卡迪正在撰写、即将出版的关于“霸凌与旁观者”（bullying and bystanders）的新书，并对该作品表达了强烈的期待。主持人指出，在当下充斥着网络暴民与取消文化（cancel culture mob）的社交媒体环境中，深入探讨这一主题正当其时；特别是在英国当下，围绕类似现象正发生多起引人注目的事件，整个社会急需一场专业且兼具细微洞察（nuanced）的对话，以此建立一套共同的语言和概念框架，让公众能够真正理性地剖析并谈论霸凌与群体心理。卡迪对此表示高度认同，双方相约待新书问世后再次于播客相聚深谈。 临别之际，主持人借用了卡迪最为著名的心理学框架向她致敬，真诚地赞叹她不仅是一位杰出的学者，更是一个“兼具温暖与能力”（warm and competent）的卓越榜样，而这正是他个人毕生追求的目标。卡迪也同样回赠了温暖的赞美，对这次深刻且启发性的对话表达了由衷的谢意。 - **核心议题延伸**：卡迪未来的新书将聚焦于霸凌机制中的“旁观者”（bystanders）角色，旨在打破当下缺乏建设性沟通语境的僵局，为公众提供理解群体霸凌行为的词汇与工具。 - **人格魅力评价**：主持人借用卡迪在人际知觉领域提出的双维模型——“热情”（warmth）与“能力”（competence），将其视作卡迪本人的生动写照。 --- ### [01:28:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=5335s) 结语与订阅呼吁 访谈在一阵轻快而温馨的背景音乐中落下帷幕，主持人面向坚持收听至最后一刻的听众表达了特别的感激之情。他坦言，每当有听众完整收听到节目尾声，他都觉得欠对方一份沉甸甸的谢意，因为这不仅代表着完整的陪伴，也意味着这期内容切切实实引发了听众的共鸣。 主持人向大家提出了一个举手之劳的请求：如果觉得本期内容有所收获，请点击“订阅”（Subscribe）按钮。他解释道，每一期节目的新增订阅量是制作团队衡量该期内容质量和受众满意度最直接、最关键的数据指标，团队会仔细追踪这些反馈，以此持续打磨未来的对谈内容。 ## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=0s) 微小的调整能带来巨大的改变（tiny tweaks lead to big changes）。 — Amy Cuddy > [02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=129s) 肢体语言不仅是我们对他人讲话的方式，更是我们在与自己的身体对话。 — Amy Cuddy > [11:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=691s) 当我们展开身体并向前迈步时，整个世界也会随之变得辽阔。 — Amy Cuddy > [24:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=1471s) 言语所传达的情绪与肢体语言所表达的情绪之间的“不同步性”（asynchrony）。 — Amy Cuddy > [36:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=2187s) 你不能退学。你必须去讲，哪怕讲得不完美——事实上它肯定不会完美——但只要你讲了，你就学到了东西，变得更好了一点点。以后每一次被邀请演讲，你都要毫不犹豫地接下。 — Susan Fiske > [59:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3555s) 假装直到你成为它（Fake it till you become it）。 — Amy Cuddy > [01:04:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=3857s) 我宁愿承受任何肉体上的剧痛，也绝不想再去经历一次那种折磨。 — Amy Cuddy > [01:08:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=4127s) 就像你的配偶在年轻时早逝，几年后你再婚并过上了幸福的生活，甚至比以前更幸福，但你永远无法停止悼念死去的第一个人。 — Amy Cuddy > [01:16:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=4585s) 人一生需要为自己回答的最重要问题，就是‘这个宇宙从根本上说是敌对的还是友善的？’ — Albert Einstein > [01:23:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE&t=5020s) 信任是影响力的载体（Trust is the conduit of influence）。 — Amy Cuddy ## Mentioned Amy Cuddy, Steven Bartlett, The Diary Of A CEO, TED, Herbert Benson, Usain Bolt, Emma Seppälä, Shark Tank, Susan Fiske, Joe Navarro, The Bachelorette, Huel, Susan Cain, Albert Einstein, Robert Sapolsky, Presence: Bringing Your Boldest Self to Your Biggest Challenges, The 33 Laws of Business & Life, What Everybody Is Saying, Bittersweet ## Video description This episode will help you become irresistible to others & build your self confidence. Guest - Doctor Amy Cuddy 00:00 Intro 02:09 Is body language important? 06:33 Your posture can affect how you feel! 08:50 Your famous TED Talk 14:59 How to know if we’re holding ourselves properly 18:35 What to do if one has low self-esteem 21:47 Why your self-story really matters 24:31 Why body language helps you to be more authentic 29:27 How body language affects what people think of you 35:56 How to nudge yourself in the direction you want to get to 43:32 How do we become better speakers? 47:40 Is eye contact important? 50:06 Is it possible to learn to read people's body language? 55:59 Can we fake good body language? 01:04:17 Your bullying experience 01:15:27 Your bullies' motivations 01:23:40 The importance and how to build trust 01:25:50 The last guest's question You can purchase Amy’s book, ‘Presence: Bringing Your Boldest Self to Your Biggest Challenges’, here: https://amzn.to/3MA3BTq Follow Amy: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3qRNo4C LinkedIn: https://bit.ly/45uFz3T Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/3kxINCANKsb My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' pre order link: https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Follow me:  Instagram: http://bit.ly/3nIkGAZ Twitter: http://bit.ly/3ztHuHm Linkedin: https://bit.ly/41Fl95Q Telegram: http://bit.ly/3nJYxST Sponsors:  Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=YEM3nWkB-EE)

[0:00] Amy Cuddy: 微小的调整能带来巨大的改变（tiny tweaks lead to big changes）。 [2:09] Amy Cuddy: 肢体语言不仅是我们对他人讲话的方式，更是我们在与自己的身体对话。 [11:31] Amy Cuddy: 当我们展开身体并向前迈步时，整个世界也会随之变得辽阔。 [24:31] Amy Cuddy: 言语所传达的情绪与肢体语言所表达的情绪之间的“不同步性”（asynchrony）。 [36:27] Susan Fiske: 你不能退学。你必须去讲，哪怕讲得不完美——事实上它肯定不会完美——但只要你讲了，你就学到了东西，变得更好了一点点。以后每一次被邀请演讲，你都要毫不犹豫地接下。 [59:15] Amy Cuddy: 假装直到你成为它（Fake it till you become it）。 [64:17] Amy Cuddy: 我宁愿承受任何肉体上的剧痛，也绝不想再去经历一次那种折磨。 [68:47] Amy Cuddy: 就像你的配偶在年轻时早逝，几年后你再婚并过上了幸福的生活，甚至比以前更幸福，但你永远无法停止悼念死去的第一个人。 [76:25] Albert Einstein: 人一生需要为自己回答的最重要问题，就是‘这个宇宙从根本上说是敌对的还是友善的？’ [83:40] Amy Cuddy: 信任是影响力的载体（Trust is the conduit of influence）。

[8:50] Amy Cuddy: I think there was some universal truth that resonated across people, across cultures, and a lot of it was about feeling like an imposter... Almost everyone has this imposter experience. [36:45] Amy Cuddy: You want to walk away and say, 'They saw who I am, and now they get to make the decision.' [40:45] Amy Cuddy: I think that we have to have some grace... with each other, with ourselves. I don't think it's going to be fixed if we're too hard on ourselves. [55:59] Amy Cuddy: Fake it till you make it to me has always meant pretend that you know things you don't know... Fake it till you become it is expand—allow yourself to feel powerful enough to really understand who you are. [64:17] Amy Cuddy: It is social death... Without community, we are in a bad place. We do need each other. The facts of my life were stolen from me; my story was rewritten. [72:08] Amy Cuddy: I would have died if I had stayed. [83:40] Amy Cuddy: Trust is the conduit of influence.

[0:00] is body language really that important [0:02] yes for example when you change the [0:04] posture of people who are depressed it [0:06] reduces their symptoms tiny tweaks lead [0:09] to big changes Dr Amy Cuddy expert on [0:12] the Behavioral Science of power Harvard [0:14] Professor coined the term power pose the [0:16] second most watched Ted Talk of all time [0:18] now posture can affect some of the [0:20] biggest moments of Our Lives your body [0:22] language is betraying you fifty percent [0:25] of our first impression is based around [0:27] body language so the way that we carry [0:30] ourselves really affects your life [0:32] because if people feel utterly powerless [0:34] they see challenges as threats instead [0:36] of opportunities they are less creative [0:39] less authentic so that's my mission to [0:43] help people feel more powerful and [0:45] become more socially Brave and there's [0:48] all kinds of ways in which we can fix it [0:50] is there a relationship there as well [0:52] between our body language and [0:54] attractiveness yeah there's research [0:56] showing that if you [0:58] that body language [1:02] and in dating situations how we tell our [1:05] stories to ourselves matters as I've [1:08] read through your story there was [1:09] bullying in your life [1:11] it's the worst thing that ever happened [1:13] to me I had to leave my job after I'd [1:16] worked so hard to get there I almost [1:19] decided to die like I'm so afraid of [1:22] them still [1:24] um [1:28] I think this is fascinating I looked at [1:31] the back end of our YouTube channel and [1:33] it says that since this channel started [1:35] 69.9 percent of you that watch it [1:38] frequently haven't yet hit the Subscribe [1:40] button so I have a favor to ask you if [1:42] you've ever watched this Channel and [1:44] enjoyed the content if you're enjoying [1:45] this episode right now please could I [1:46] ask a small favor please hit the [1:48] Subscribe button helps this channel more [1:49] than I can explain and I promise if you [1:52] do that to return the favor we will make [1:55] this show better and better and better [1:57] and better and better that's the promise [1:58] I'm willing to make you if you hit the [2:00] Subscribe button do we have a deal [2:02] [Music] [2:06] Amy [2:08] [Music] [2:09] there's lots of um myths around body [2:12] language and how important it is and you [2:14] hear all these phrases about oh 80 of [2:16] our communication is non-verbal or 90 I [2:19] can't remember the numbers but you hear [2:20] all of this stuff [2:21] is body language really that important [2:23] yes it is important absolutely and and [2:27] it it is it probably affects you know [2:30] about about half of our impression of [2:33] others [2:34] our first impression is based around [2:37] body language [2:39] I'm not maybe it's higher than that but [2:42] I would say it's at least 50 body [2:44] language isn't just us speaking to [2:47] others we're also speaking to ourselves [2:49] the way that we carry ourselves is [2:52] sending messages back to our our brain [2:55] about whether we're safe or unsafe are [2:58] we threatened or not threatened are we [3:00] you know confident or not confident and [3:04] so how do we know that well the the sort [3:08] of earliest studies looking at this idea [3:11] about [3:12] um Body Mind feedback we're focused on [3:15] facial expressions [3:17] and so we know that there are some [3:22] mostly universal expressions of emotion [3:25] that are facial and when I say mostly [3:27] there is some debate about [3:30] um you know whether they're entirely [3:32] Universal to every single culture and [3:34] exactly which emotions they are but you [3:37] have things like happiness and smiling [3:39] sadness and crying [3:41] um you know widened eyes and surprise [3:43] those things are Universal [3:46] regardless of where you grew up and what [3:48] you were exposed to so if they're [3:50] Universal that indicates that they are [3:53] hardwired that we're born with some [3:55] Association in our brains [3:57] so if they're hardwired can you reverse [3:59] the direction of that wiring can you can [4:03] you tell people to smile and will it [4:05] make them happier and so the facial [4:07] feedback studies showed that yes indeed [4:11] you can uh that you you know and the [4:13] first ones were were smiling and and [4:16] mood uh so you know they had people some [4:20] people hold a pencil between their teeth [4:22] in a way that made them smile and others [4:25] hold a pencil between their teeth in a [4:26] way that didn't make them smile the [4:28] people who were in this forced smile [4:30] which did cause the contraction of the [4:34] muscles around the eyes which which is a [4:35] real smile even though it was a fake [4:37] smile it's not just your mouth it's your [4:40] mouth and your eyes they were in a [4:42] better mood their mood lifted they liked [4:45] the experimenter better they liked [4:47] anything put in front of them better [4:48] they felt happier than the people who [4:51] were not in this forced smile it was [4:54] then expanded to look at some of these [4:56] other Universal facial expressions like [4:58] crying and sadness [4:59] and then [5:01] people started to look at things like [5:04] movement posture I would say the [5:07] earliest work really was on breathing [5:10] um you know when we get anxious we [5:13] breathe quickly and shallowly [5:15] and if you think about [5:18] and I'm not sure that you ever had this [5:20] experience but if you know you were [5:23] called on in class say in high school [5:25] and you weren't prepared or you had the [5:26] first time you had to give a speech in [5:27] front of class you know a lot of [5:29] students speak very quickly and you can [5:32] tell that their their breathing is [5:34] shallow and they're they're breathing [5:35] quickly that's that's a fight or flight [5:39] response and so [5:42] you know can you turn that around [5:45] um and and so the the people who started [5:47] studying this called this the relaxation [5:49] response where they got people to change [5:51] their breathing and I'm gonna I'm [5:53] oversimplifying this but in essence [5:55] you're breathing more slowly and deeply [5:58] and that triggers a nervous system [6:00] response that makes people feel much [6:03] more relaxed and more confident and safe [6:06] which impacts performance of their [6:08] speech whatever they're doing yes or the [6:10] context in which it was first studied [6:12] was medicine and trying to get patients [6:15] to feel calmer before stressful [6:17] procedures [6:19] her Benson at Harvard Medical School did [6:22] some of that early work I think you know [6:23] going back to the 60s and 70s so you [6:27] know that was but it wasn't sort of [6:30] linked quite to psychology because it [6:31] was coming from medicine when you have a [6:34] person who is suffering from major [6:37] depressive disorder [6:38] uh open up open their posture just for a [6:41] couple of minutes [6:43] and then have them fill out a depression [6:45] scale afterwards they are less depressed [6:48] when you treat people with PTSD [6:52] by teaching them you know yoga poses [6:56] that open them up [6:58] it it reduces their PTSD symptoms so you [7:01] know this is coming from all different [7:03] fields of study not just from social [7:07] psychology so there's a clear two-way [7:10] relationship between my posture and how [7:14] I'm feeling and then also how I'm [7:16] feeling in my posture which communicates [7:18] outwardly to the world about who I am [7:20] and exactly I don't know if you know the [7:22] answer to this question but it made me [7:23] wonder as you were talking do you know [7:25] how old language is I actually don't [7:27] know the answer I don't know it's like [7:29] how old is language [7:31] between 150 to 200 000 years old [7:34] and how old are humans [7:39] okay so we have [7:41] about 50 000 years of people not having [7:44] sophisticated language and having to [7:47] read each other's body language which a [7:49] lot of non-human animals are doing all [7:51] the time yeah exactly I mean you know [7:54] it's it's funny we have these squirrels [7:56] in our front yard [7:58] um and they're really active and there [8:01] are all kinds of body language signals [8:03] but also these different kinds of chirps [8:05] that they make and of course I was [8:09] curious I looked this up you know is are [8:11] they do these different chirps mean [8:13] different things like certain bird calls [8:16] really clearly mean certain things and [8:18] the ethologists the animal behavior [8:21] Specialists say that in with squirrels [8:24] they don't mean specific things but it's [8:27] it's still it's it's a body language [8:29] signal so even it's not formal language [8:33] but but they they still get the sense [8:36] that there's something threatening [8:38] happening or not [8:41] or you know sometimes it's mating [8:43] related but they're not as specific as [8:46] bird calls which are closer to our [8:48] language than say these squirrel chirps [8:51] when you did that Ted Talk some 10 years [8:53] ago I think from what I read it became [8:55] the most viewed Ted Talk of all time in [8:57] its moment it's it became second most [9:01] viewed [9:02] um and it has remained there for a long [9:05] time [9:06] so it it was never it was never the most [9:09] viewed but it certainly went viral [9:10] quickly [9:11] why why do you think people care so much [9:15] about this subject matter [9:17] it's funny because you know it still [9:19] gets five or ten thousand views a day [9:21] and it that's it's 10 years old [9:25] and I still get [9:27] 10 emails a day from strangers who've [9:29] just seen it for the first time [9:31] thanking me [9:33] saying they felt that I was speaking to [9:35] them [9:36] and [9:38] so there must be something Timeless [9:40] about it that I that I didn't know I was [9:42] tapping into [9:44] but I think there was some universal [9:46] truth that resonated across people [9:50] across cultures and a lot of it was [9:53] about [9:54] feeling like an imposter I mean that you [9:57] know I talked about imposter syndrome [9:58] and the feeling like you don't belong [10:00] there and it turns out almost everyone [10:04] has this imposter experience and in fact [10:07] the women who who originally studied [10:09] imposter syndrome says she wishes she [10:12] had called it the Imposter experience [10:15] because syndrome indicates that it's [10:17] pathological and it's not it's just it's [10:20] so common so what I found you know I I [10:24] was getting emails from first generation [10:26] you know [10:29] um [10:29] um uh black college students I was [10:33] getting emails from [10:34] white males literally Swiss Bankers all [10:38] of these different people retired people [10:41] um uh 12 year old kids who felt that [10:45] they didn't belong there what I think [10:48] resonated was first it's okay you're not [10:52] the only one who feels that way it's [10:54] normal but also there are some things [10:56] that you can do to to to get out of [11:00] feeling that way and so it very much is [11:03] about to me [11:06] um people feeling understood I feel like [11:09] it's when you [11:10] you know you love a song it speaks to [11:13] you it it it evokes a certain emotional [11:17] response because something about that [11:18] song makes you feel connected [11:21] and [11:22] I think something about the talk did the [11:25] same thing it made people feel [11:27] understood [11:29] um and not alone in their feelings of [11:31] powerlessness and not belonging [11:34] and it gave them a blueprint as such to [11:37] to be more [11:40] to feel more powerful yes and something [11:42] that was you know didn't require [11:44] technology that didn't really require [11:46] much of anything [11:49] um [11:49] to to change the way they felt yes and [11:52] what is that blueprint [11:54] I feel like there's we know so much more [11:57] now than we knew then [11:59] then we we were having people adopt [12:02] these expansive you know what we call [12:04] power poses for a couple of minutes and [12:07] looking at how it changed the way they [12:08] felt [12:09] um you know standing with their hands on [12:12] their hips for example or in the victory [12:14] pose with their arms up as if they had [12:16] just crossed the finish line and won you [12:18] know Usain Bolt for example and it [12:21] changed the way they felt so that was [12:24] the blueprint was was before you go into [12:26] this stressful situation you know find a [12:29] private space it's funny I said a [12:31] bathroom stall I had not scripted that [12:34] that's just what came out and so many [12:36] people say I stood in a bathroom stall [12:38] and um Power pose before the job [12:41] interview or before pitching an idea or [12:43] something like that uh and and it [12:46] changed the way I felt [12:47] and so that was the blueprint but I I [12:50] feel like the idea of being expansive is [12:52] so much more expansive than that [12:55] um it's it's the way we walk it's taking [12:57] longer strides [12:58] um swinging our arms more it's uh it's [13:02] talking more slowly it is which is [13:05] taking up temporal space it's that [13:07] breathing breathing more deeply and more [13:10] slowly it's all there are all kinds of [13:13] ways in which we can expand [13:17] that will change our feeling of agency [13:20] of power [13:21] not power over others but power over [13:24] ourselves or power too [13:26] and when that happens it activates what [13:30] psychologists call the behavioral [13:31] approach system and the approach system [13:35] causes us to see challenges not as [13:39] threats but as opportunities it causes [13:41] us to see other people not as potential [13:44] Predators or competitors but as possible [13:47] allies and Friends [13:49] it makes us more creative because we're [13:52] not feeling cognitively limited we have [13:55] more of an abundance mindset than a [13:57] scarcity mindset we don't feel as [13:59] defensive we're more able to trust and I [14:03] think maybe most important we're more [14:05] likely to act so when we feel powerful [14:08] we are more likely to take action not [14:11] just on behalf of ourselves but also on [14:13] behalf of others so when you look at [14:15] research on say bystander intervention [14:18] you know when do people step in and help [14:20] in emergencies one of the best [14:22] predictors is personal feeling [14:24] personally powerful when people feel [14:27] personally powerful they step in and [14:29] help they go hey something's wrong they [14:32] don't second guess themselves and think [14:33] well maybe I'm not the right person to [14:35] help they just do it they step in and [14:37] help [14:38] so you know it it has it has so that [14:41] that feeling of power is linked to so [14:44] many other [14:45] uh feelings and and sort of aspects of [14:50] our mindset that change how we approach [14:52] life [14:53] so as we expand [14:56] and step forward the world expands [15:00] so many people listening to this now [15:01] will be [15:03] unaware that they've been going through [15:05] their lives signaling to themselves and [15:07] to others a sense of they're in [15:10] powerlessness yes [15:12] um which is one of the first things that [15:13] I I was thinking about when I had was [15:15] reading through your work and watching [15:16] the videos was that most people don't [15:18] even know these are all unknown unknowns [15:20] so they're feeling a certain way they're [15:22] showing up in a certain way they're on [15:23] stage hiding behind the lectern in a [15:26] certain way and they have no idea the [15:28] profundity of that signal that they're [15:30] sending to themselves and others right [15:31] what is how do I know that I'm signaling [15:35] that to myself and to others what are [15:37] the signs I think I ask people to do a [15:40] kind of audit of their body of how [15:42] they're holding themselves and it's [15:44] funny when I when I'm giving a talk and [15:46] speaking to a big group of people and I [15:48] say you know now check your posture I [15:50] can hear everyone immediately moving in [15:53] their chairs even if the lights are low [15:55] but I say no don't move yet check your [15:57] posture because what you think you think [16:00] that when you're not the one performing [16:03] it your body language doesn't matter [16:04] because you again we're thinking we [16:07] think of body language as Just One [16:09] Direction what we're saying to others [16:10] but our body language is always speaking [16:13] to us as well so I ask them to think to [16:15] pay attention to what is their default [16:17] even just seated position are they [16:21] holding their shoulders up and forward [16:23] collapsing their chest are they wrapping [16:26] their hands or arms around their torso [16:28] or [16:29] powerlessness so like what's the it [16:32] really is you know your your limbs are [16:35] pulled in your shoulders are pulled [16:37] forward your chest is collapsed [16:40] um legs might be crossed and ankles [16:43] wrapped I think the wrapping of the [16:45] ankles matters more than the crossing of [16:47] the legs if you watch sports and watch [16:51] what's happening what what is the [16:53] winning team doing versus the losing [16:55] team you really see it I mean you see [16:58] you know these big basketball players [17:01] who are holding their heads in their [17:03] hands and you know leaning forward and [17:07] and they they look absolutely defeated [17:10] um even though they're they're just as [17:12] physically strong as they were five [17:14] minutes earlier when things were going [17:16] well so watching the body language of [17:18] like athletes for example and then [17:21] paying attention to what you're doing [17:22] yourself I think helps us to become much [17:25] more aware of how we're carrying [17:27] ourselves but you can do little things [17:29] like just when you get up in the morning [17:31] you know if you wake up all curled up in [17:34] the fetal position which is the most [17:37] common sleeping position 40 of people [17:39] sleep in the fetal position [17:41] and we know that when people wake up in [17:44] the fetal position [17:45] they are more anxious than people who [17:48] don't that is obviously correlational we [17:52] don't know the the causal Direction [17:54] because it might be that you're anxious [17:55] and that's why you're sleeping in the [17:57] fetal position nonetheless say you wake [17:59] up in the fetal position stretch out you [18:03] know into a starfish pose you know be [18:05] Usain bold in bed before you put your [18:08] feet on the ground on the ground one of [18:11] my research assistants said that he [18:13] would uh hold one of his hands on his [18:15] hip while he brushed his teeth like [18:17] little things that like that that sort [18:20] of [18:21] forced him to spend a little bit of time [18:23] expanding [18:25] really helped and I hear so many stories [18:27] like this people rearrange their desks [18:29] so that they have to stretch out a bit [18:32] more when they're working instead of you [18:34] know working like this over their phone [18:35] you know how are you sitting in your car [18:38] are you you know really close to the [18:40] steering wheel and kind of collapsed or [18:42] more open little things like that can [18:44] really change the way you feel so I [18:47] think it starts with just noticing how [18:50] we carry ourselves how we carry [18:52] ourselves physically how we speak how we [18:55] breathe it's so interesting because I've [18:56] got a [18:58] a guy friend of mine who is [19:01] um [19:02] would be the first to say that he's very [19:04] low self-esteem he's very disparaging of [19:07] himself so when he walks into a room [19:09] he'll [19:10] insult himself so he'll say sorry I [19:12] smile or sorry he'll apologize for [19:14] himself take up very little room sit on [19:16] the floor [19:18] um all the time and all of these things [19:20] which um [19:22] we've always kind of noticed it but when [19:24] you say all of these these things about [19:25] people can Contracting when they're they [19:28] feel powerless and taking up less space [19:30] and being sort of self-disparaging I've [19:32] always looked at that behavior in him [19:34] and thought I I don't I don't know it's [19:36] something deeper I don't know I don't [19:37] know what we can do to or he can do to [19:39] help himself what would you say to [19:41] someone like that who's feels like a you [19:43] know I mean like I was saying if you [19:45] look at the clinical studies the [19:48] research is pretty clear that you know [19:50] sort of Body Mind feedback [19:54] has significant benefits to people who [19:58] are feeling because that sounds like [20:01] sort of [20:02] unusually low self-esteem right I would [20:05] say that's several standard deviations [20:07] below the mean if if that's how he [20:10] carries himself and speaks about himself [20:12] yes so everything you described was I [20:15] just saw him [20:17] I would say you know and again I'm not a [20:19] clinical psychologist but if you look at [20:21] the Clinical Psychology literature it [20:23] very clearly shows that if you get [20:25] people to change the way they carry [20:27] themselves they feel better they feel [20:30] different [20:31] um I think you know I think to me some [20:34] of the most compelling work is the work [20:36] on combat veterans with post-traumatic [20:39] stress disorder who feel utterly broken [20:42] and often feel that they their bodies [20:45] betrayed them [20:47] and [20:49] you know are living at home are unable [20:52] to keep a job or you know keep a [20:55] relationship going [20:58] and the research you know there are [21:00] researchers who have worked with them [21:02] and taught them these you know expansive [21:03] yoga poses and the effects are dramatic [21:07] it it just makes it restores their sense [21:11] of personal power their sense of agency [21:14] and you know these are self-reports when [21:18] I talk about the behaviors they're [21:20] self-reports but the researcher who did [21:22] a lot of these studies Emma sepula who's [21:25] at Yale says that she would hear from [21:28] these people a year later saying I no [21:31] longer live at home I have a job I'm so [21:34] much happier I'm dating [21:36] and it's because of this because of the [21:38] expansive yoga poses yeah breathing the [21:41] expansive breathing expensive yoga poses [21:43] but getting into the practice of doing [21:45] that changes their lives [21:47] you know I feel strongly that [21:51] encouraging people to open up even if [21:56] it's when they're alone you know because [21:58] sometimes people close up in social [22:00] situations because they have you know [22:02] complex PTSD they have experienced [22:05] trauma and they've or they've been [22:07] assaulted they've been harassed [22:10] um and they feel that they're protecting [22:11] themselves so I think you start at home [22:14] alone you start in PRI the privacy of [22:17] your own home where you don't feel [22:18] threatened [22:20] um and then maybe you build it into [22:21] these more social situations so instead [22:24] of worrying about the impression you're [22:25] making on others you think about the [22:27] impression you're making on yourself [22:28] first that's what matters how we tell [22:31] our stories to ourselves matters [22:34] 100 agree [22:37] I've been really compelled by this idea [22:39] of what I've been calling the self story [22:40] which is kind of what you're describing [22:41] there which is [22:43] um we all have this kind of story about [22:45] who we are and how valuable we are and [22:47] what we're good at and what we're [22:48] capable of that governs Our Lives yes [22:50] and it's written in every small thing we [22:52] do that I sat here with um [22:54] it's a bit of a different example but I [22:56] sat here within a championship boxer and [22:58] he was telling me that when he's on the [23:00] treadmill at home it's a very different [23:01] example when he's on the treadmill at [23:03] home if he's told himself he's going to [23:05] do seven miles and he gets to six and a [23:07] half miles and gets cramped in his leg [23:08] he will limp the remaining half a mile [23:10] because he doesn't want to want to let [23:12] in his own words the demons in and what [23:14] he what he's really saying there is this [23:15] idea that even though I'm alone and I'm [23:18] No One's Gonna know or see I'm gonna [23:20] know and I'm gonna write him to myself [23:21] story just a new paragraph about who I [23:23] am when things get tough yeah and that [23:25] and I I thought so much about this [23:27] because [23:28] um lying kind of links to this in many [23:29] ways because lying is this kind of decay [23:31] of trust but also lying to yourself so [23:33] like making a commitment to yourself [23:34] that I'm going to do something and [23:36] continually breaking the commitment to [23:37] yourself even if nobody knows I think is [23:39] just so detrimental to our our [23:41] perception of ourselves like it's a [23:44] downward spiral of the perception of [23:45] ourselves absolutely I I I you know we [23:49] we own our narratives and [23:53] you know there's research even on [23:54] looking at older people [23:57] um and physical health outcomes I mean [24:00] mortality and and the researchers found [24:03] that older people who had more positive [24:06] personal narratives about how they got [24:08] to where they are in life lived [24:10] significantly longer than people who had [24:12] these negative narratives even if they [24:15] had the same job the same kind of sort [24:18] of on the surface they look the same [24:20] they controlled for all those [24:22] differences and still found that these [24:24] the older people with these more [24:25] positive personal narratives live longer [24:28] again that's correlational but uh it's [24:31] you know it's powerful and one of the [24:33] things that happens when people feel [24:34] powerless is uh that they are less able [24:37] to be authentic right so when they when [24:39] they present themselves [24:41] say they are in a job interview they [24:44] don't come across as authentic as [24:47] somebody who feels more powerful and [24:49] what's interesting is that the body [24:52] language associated with sort of lower [24:55] authenticity [24:57] is sort of on the same Spectrum with the [25:00] body language that's associated with [25:01] outright deception [25:03] right so when people are lying to [25:07] somebody else I mean knowingly lying [25:11] the body language that matters the most [25:13] is not eye contact that's what people [25:15] focus that they think eye contact is the [25:18] most important signal it's not because [25:19] people learn very different things in [25:21] different households and cultures [25:24] personality differences that change how [25:26] people [25:27] choose to make eye contact in different [25:29] situations [25:30] what matters is the asynchrony between [25:35] the emotions conveyed with the words and [25:38] the emotions conveyed with the body [25:39] language so if you're telling a happy [25:43] story but you do not look happy your [25:45] body language doesn't look happy you [25:47] know you don't come across as authentic [25:49] if you think about you know being a kid [25:51] and maybe you lied to get out of going [25:53] to school and you told your parents that [25:56] you were sick and you really weren't [25:58] you're telling a story that's not true [26:00] that's you know supposed to be sad so [26:04] you're trying to get the the emotions [26:06] right with your words but your body [26:09] language is probably betraying you [26:11] um you know because you're actually [26:13] excited that you're going to sit at home [26:15] on the couch and eat chips and watch [26:16] reruns or at night rerun is probably a [26:19] word that nobody uses anymore but TV [26:21] um uh YouTube Tick Tock whatever so [26:26] that that those asynchranies are the [26:29] same as the asynchronies that you see [26:31] when people aren't able to be authentic [26:33] and of course in those cases that's not [26:36] that the intention is not bad they're [26:38] not in any way trying to lie to the [26:41] other person in a way they're kind of [26:43] lying to themselves [26:45] um and then that spills over into not [26:49] being able to show an honest expression [26:52] of themselves to the other [26:54] and people and and the funny thing is [26:57] that people [26:59] don't can't quite articulate so if [27:02] you're an interviewer say in that [27:04] situation [27:05] it's very hard to articulate what was [27:08] off but they know something was off and [27:11] they'll say the person didn't seem [27:13] authentic but they're not going to say [27:15] oh well their words didn't match their [27:16] body language yeah they would no because [27:19] we you know when people are lying they [27:22] can choreograph they can script the [27:24] words but it's very hard to choreograph [27:25] all the body language to go along with [27:27] it it takes up too much cognitive [27:29] bandwidth so but it does come across to [27:31] other people I think one of the fun [27:33] places to watch for this is on Shark [27:36] Tank [27:38] um is to to watch the the sort of the [27:40] body language of these people pitching [27:42] and sometimes you have people who come [27:44] across at first as like super confident [27:46] but the something about the way they [27:50] tell their story does not match their [27:52] body language and and the Sharks feel [27:55] that you see them you see them almost [27:58] cringe there's something off and they [28:01] don't get the money [28:03] and then you might have somebody who is [28:05] you know let's say uh doesn't have a [28:09] business school education uh doesn't [28:11] have as much experience but really [28:15] believes in what they're doing and and [28:17] knows what they're doing you know yes [28:19] I'm not saying that you can be [28:20] incompetent you have to be at a certain [28:23] level of confidence [28:25] but they're able to convey their [28:27] authentic conviction and passion about [28:29] this project about what they're doing [28:31] and the Sharks warm toward them you see [28:35] them lean in toward those people and [28:38] those people are more likely to be to to [28:41] to to to find investors and the thing is [28:44] those those signals aren't just [28:46] short-term signals those people are also [28:49] more likely to stick with it to inspire [28:53] other people to uh to be promoted to to [28:57] be successful in the long run it's a [29:00] real signal that you're picking up on [29:01] that you just can't fake and it really [29:04] starts with how you tell your story to [29:06] yourself is there a relationship there [29:08] as well between our body language and [29:11] our attractiveness I does my is there a [29:14] certain body language that's associated [29:16] with me being attractive if I'm single [29:18] and I'm like you know I wanna [29:20] I want to increase my chances of finding [29:21] a mate yeah it's well it's interesting [29:24] because you know people I think there [29:27] were skepticism about whether women [29:30] would be punished for [29:33] um using more dominant body language and [29:37] which I thought was kind of sad because [29:38] it just reinforces The Stereotype but [29:40] but there's Recent research showing that [29:43] first of all they're not they're not and [29:46] I'm not talking about super Alpha body [29:47] language I'm talking about body language [29:50] that's confident and warm right that [29:53] that shows I feel good about myself and [29:55] I want to be here and I'm interested in [29:57] you that body language is is more more [30:01] effective both in the workplace and in [30:03] dating situations so people [30:05] there was a study that looked at dating [30:08] profile pictures on dating apps and both [30:11] men and women with more open body [30:13] language more confident body language [30:15] were seen as more attractive [30:18] so I I thought that was that that was [30:20] very reassuring and also suggested to me [30:23] that we're making some progress if that [30:25] was true for for for you know across [30:28] genders [30:30] so yeah people want to be with somebody [30:32] who is confident but not arrogant who is [30:37] comfortable in their skin and your body [30:39] language conveys that even in a still [30:42] picture it conveys that [30:45] wow if I am the type of person that is [30:49] feels powerless inside of myself I'm [30:51] suffering with a variety of a variety of [30:53] different reasons [30:54] um I know I know that there's as you've [30:57] described there's there's things that I [30:59] can do to tell a different story to [31:02] myself publicly and privately is this is [31:05] this a form of practice that one has to [31:07] do is this like a yes is there a CIS [31:10] like a like I go to the gym and I do [31:13] some of my favorite work in social [31:14] psychology is on what's called [31:16] self-affirmation Theory when people [31:19] think of self-affirmation they think of [31:21] someone looking in a mirror saying I'm [31:23] awesome I'm you know I'm the best I'm [31:26] gonna win I'm a winner we kind of know [31:29] that when we feel bad about ourselves [31:31] saying I'm great doesn't help because [31:34] now we just feel like we're lying to [31:35] ourselves so we feel bad already and now [31:38] we're like well I feel bad and I'm a [31:39] liar sounds [31:41] exactly so [31:43] so [31:44] self-affirmation is not that [31:46] self-affirmation is this what what these [31:50] experiments and there are hundreds of [31:52] experiments now in self-affirmation they [31:54] have people list the top two or three [31:58] values or qualities that make them who [32:02] they are like if I took that value or [32:05] quality away from you you would say I'm [32:07] just no longer myself like you are just [32:09] taking a piece of me away [32:12] they then have them kind of rank them [32:14] and then take the top one and write a [32:17] couple of paragraphs one paragraph about [32:20] um you know a time when they expressed [32:22] it and another maybe about how it felt [32:25] to express it that is it that's the [32:28] exercise they then have them do do [32:31] difficult things like take a difficult [32:34] math test for example or do a debate you [32:37] know do it be in a debate competition or [32:40] or [32:41] um whatever something challenging that's [32:44] unrelated right so if say I said [32:48] um [32:49] I value music you know I if if you took [32:53] the experience of of Music away from me [32:56] I just would not feel like myself and [32:59] then I I did a math test [33:01] I would do better on the math test [33:04] after doing that self-affirmation [33:06] exercise I likely I would be likely to [33:09] on average people perform better [33:12] they also even show decreases in levels [33:16] of stress hormones like epinephrine so [33:19] the idea is that you're anchoring [33:20] yourself in who you are and what you're [33:23] doing is reminding yourself that no [33:24] matter what happens on that math test [33:26] you're still going to be that person [33:28] when you walk out and so it that math [33:31] test becomes less important which [33:34] ironically or paradoxically makes you do [33:36] better on it and so I think that's a [33:39] really good start is to just spend time [33:42] you know kind of journaling about who [33:44] are you what do you value but really [33:46] what are those qualities that make you [33:48] who you are to you not to others not how [33:52] would others describe you what removes [33:55] you like what really moves you [33:59] it's not so interesting I've never heard [34:00] that before because a lot of the time [34:01] you kind of have to have the two camps [34:03] where one campus says look in the mirror [34:05] and tell yourself a bunch of lies and [34:07] there's a whole industry about yeah [34:10] I don't like it yeah and then there's [34:12] the other cam which is Maybe [34:14] uh I don't know if this is the other [34:15] Camp necessarily but it's probably the [34:16] school of thought I've always lived in [34:18] which is you need to go and build [34:20] evidence somehow new evidence about [34:22] yourself right like counteracting the [34:24] evidence that the limiting evidence or [34:26] the limiting beliefs that are standing [34:27] in your way yeah it's like [34:28] self-perception Theory right if you see [34:31] yourself doing it you you become it yeah [34:33] and that's just a reflection on the [34:35] areas in my life where I was like very [34:36] low confidence and how I got from that [34:38] place to being higher confidence came [34:41] from [34:43] straying outside of my comfort zone and [34:45] going and doing nothing more [34:47] um building evidence that I wasn't going [34:48] to die I feel and I that works too I'm [34:51] not saying that that self-affirmation is [34:53] the only way to do it I I'm much more by [34:56] the way in Europe I'm in your Camp I [34:58] I get really frustrated with [35:02] um it's all your mindset and you just [35:05] got to tell yourself that you you you [35:07] can create your life you know like how [35:09] yeah you know I just there's so much of [35:12] that and I feel like it's so confusing [35:15] and discouraging for people because they [35:18] watch people who they think are doing [35:20] that [35:22] in short clips and they're like well [35:25] there they did it why can't I do it but [35:28] but a lot of those people didn't get to [35:31] where they are by doing that lots of [35:33] people helped them get to where they are [35:35] yeah [35:36] um or you know they did other work but [35:39] it's it's just or or maybe they're not [35:42] where they aren't even where you believe [35:44] they are they're actually really unhappy [35:46] and just putting on this Brave face [35:49] because simple cells right simple cells [35:52] simple cells and you know [35:54] um simple inspiration cells [35:57] so just just just to close off that [35:59] point about because I feel like there's [36:00] going to be people listening right now [36:02] um that identify with feeling powerless [36:05] in their everyday lives and their [36:06] working lives and relationships they uh [36:09] they can spot all the symptoms you [36:10] described of that sort of like [36:11] contracted posture the self-affirmation [36:14] piece loved it never heard that before [36:17] um [36:19] what else to get me out of that [36:20] situation I'm thinking in terms of [36:22] things that I can like either practice [36:24] or you know how do I get from there to [36:26] there [36:27] well it's funny because I I talk a lot [36:30] about [36:31] how tiny tweaks lead to big changes and [36:34] I I called you know there was a whole [36:36] sort of nudge movement like how do you [36:38] change people's behavior through these [36:39] little nudges [36:41] and I I talk about self-nudging you I'm [36:45] not a I'm not a big believer in New [36:46] Year's resolutions because they're two [36:48] they're grandiose they require a million [36:50] steps you're going to fail somewhere [36:52] along the way and then quit I believe in [36:56] just doing a little bit better the next [36:58] time okay so the next time you go into [37:02] uh give a talk for example to anyone if [37:07] somebody's afraid of public speaking but [37:09] has to to do to lead team meetings for [37:12] example [37:12] I want you to focus on changing one [37:15] thing maybe it's your breathing you [37:17] breathe more slowly and deeply maybe you [37:20] make sure that you're not wrapping your [37:22] hands around your body by holding a [37:24] bottle of water or a slide advance or [37:28] something something that forces you to [37:30] keep your hands away from your body each [37:33] time you get a little bit better and [37:36] eventually you find that you're there [37:38] and my advisor my grad school advisor [37:40] Susan Fisk who I just adore [37:43] taught me that because I almost quit [37:45] grad school [37:46] the night before my first year talk [37:48] which is where you present the first [37:50] year of research you've done just to the [37:52] people in your department I was so [37:54] scared [37:55] that I called her and I said I'm I can't [37:58] do this I'm going to quit and she said [38:01] you're not quitting [38:02] she said you're going to do it and even [38:05] if it doesn't go perfectly which it [38:07] won't [38:09] you will have done it and learned [38:11] something and gotten a little better and [38:13] each time it's going to get better she [38:15] said and I want you to give every talk [38:16] you're asked to give take every [38:18] opportunity that you're that that's [38:21] given to you to improve and eventually [38:24] you won't notice the moment when you [38:29] know suddenly you've gotten there you'll [38:30] just look back and go oh my gosh I'm [38:32] here how did I get here through these [38:35] tiny nudges so go easy on yourself focus [38:38] on only one change in that next [38:41] challenge focus on the situations that [38:45] you approached with Dread that you [38:47] execute with anxiety and distraction and [38:50] that you tend to leave with a sense of [38:51] regret [38:52] each those challenges vary for different [38:54] across people you know for some people [38:56] it's public speaking for some people [38:57] it's giving negative feedback for some [39:00] people it's [39:02] um having a difficult discussion with a [39:03] family member whatever that challenge is [39:06] for you [39:07] I want you to do change one little thing [39:10] each time you go into it [39:13] so that you can in the end approach it [39:16] with confidence execute with this calm [39:19] confidence and leave it with a sense of [39:22] satisfaction that you showed up that you [39:24] did what you could do a lot of things [39:26] that you can't control [39:28] but it's much easier to accept a [39:30] negative outcome if you controlled the [39:33] things you could right if you know how [39:36] often do people walk away from those [39:37] situations and go I feel like they [39:39] didn't see who I am [39:41] you want to walk away and say they saw [39:44] who I am and now they get to make the [39:46] decision and I can't control whether [39:48] they you know how how they evaluate me [39:52] Beyond this I did I did my best that's [39:54] where you want to get to I always think [39:56] of um confidence and self-esteem and now [39:59] powerlessness or powerfulness the [40:01] feeling of it as an upward or a downward [40:03] spiral that we're all kind of on like a [40:05] self-reinforcing upward or downward [40:07] spiral if that kind of I think it is so [40:09] if I just to kind of I think that [40:13] say something I'm confident at public [40:15] speaking on stage for example I will [40:17] show up better which means I'm likely to [40:19] get a better reaction I'm likely to feel [40:20] better after which means next time I [40:22] show up better which means and the [40:23] Spiral goes up or conversely it can go [40:25] the opposite way downwards and the [40:27] people that are on that downward so [40:28] there's many areas of my life that I [40:30] think come on and up would spiral I'm [40:31] like I'm building positive evidence it's [40:33] all going well and everyone's black and [40:35] then there's some areas of my life that [40:36] I might be on a downward spiral um I [40:38] know I've got some good friends that I [40:40] think are so far down that downward [40:42] spiral that even telling them [40:45] what your lovely professor she was a my [40:48] advice my yeah she was a professor my my [40:50] graduate school advisor they're so far [40:53] down the bottom of that spiral that they [40:55] would have quit yeah a lot of people are [40:57] living in a state of survival which I [40:59] actually think of like self-preservation [41:00] or defense yes they're like just remove [41:02] all chance of threat from my life [41:05] and in that situation you never do get [41:07] to go upwards on that spiral no oh God I [41:09] just so many people are at the bottom of [41:11] that spiral in their lives I know and I [41:13] don't know what to do about it I I it's [41:15] you know it's my responsibility but I [41:18] just think no responsibility no it's not [41:19] but but also I I do think that more [41:23] people are in that state now than they [41:25] than that compared to three and a half [41:27] years ago how come I do I think the [41:29] pandemic really took a toll on people's [41:32] mental sort of [41:35] um stability their their sense of self [41:38] and I think we're going to be grappling [41:41] with that for quite a while I mean [41:43] people who we why did it why did it have [41:46] that impact because we are wired to deal [41:51] with a crisis that lasts [41:54] like a couple months not one that lasts [41:57] three years and not one that is yanking [42:02] us around back and forth like oh we're [42:04] emerging oh Delta we're emerging Omicron [42:08] you know like it was just this [42:10] constant back and forth and we so we [42:12] were living in this liminal state where [42:15] we had one foot on the safe side and one [42:18] foot on the threatened side we get [42:20] through crises using what's called surge [42:22] capacity which is you know it's called a [42:24] network of physical and and [42:25] Psychological Resources that help us [42:28] survive but that runs out pretty quickly [42:31] and a lot of people say for the first [42:33] two months of the pandemic they felt [42:34] very productive that was Surge capacity [42:37] and it's studied in the context often of [42:41] um of of combat soldiers so like the [42:44] first battle it's it's the emergency [42:46] phase and they they are focused the goal [42:50] is clear it's shared teams operate at [42:53] their best good leaders operated their [42:55] best then they go into this regression [42:57] in between where they don't know what's [43:00] going to happen next they lose a sense [43:02] of purpose they become disconnected from [43:04] each other they withdraw then they're [43:07] back in battle in that's how this is [43:09] gone it's going to take a little while [43:11] to put the pieces back together again [43:12] but I think I think that we we have to [43:15] have some Grace [43:17] and I mean toward each other with each [43:20] other with ourselves [43:23] I don't think it's going to be fixed by [43:26] if we're too hard ourselves I think we [43:29] do have to let ourselves off the hook a [43:30] bit and go oh we've never lived through [43:32] something like this earlier and we were [43:34] talking about the things that make you [43:36] feel powerless in your body language and [43:38] the way you conduct yourselves and all [43:39] these things the things that make [43:40] someone look and feel powerful [43:43] um [43:44] I imagine it's the opposite in many [43:46] respects but specifically if I if I want [43:49] to and I want to because I really want [43:51] to leave people with actionable things [43:52] that they can they can do in their lives [43:54] if I want to [43:56] um [43:57] become a better speaker present myself [44:00] better show up better for my employees [44:04] um or be a better podcast host and I [44:06] think about this people I've never said [44:08] this before people I spend so long [44:09] thinking about how I'm sitting when I'm [44:11] speaking to someone really yeah because [44:13] because when I'm not thinking I might [44:14] like fall into a certain posture I was [44:16] I've even been thinking about these [44:17] bloody arms on this chair [44:18] sometimes I'm like this and this is my [44:21] favorite situation to be in so like my [44:23] body's open right and then sometimes I [44:25] go like this and sometimes I crunch over [44:28] into a ball and stuff yeah and when I'm [44:29] having these kind of conversations with [44:31] people I think that the best approach to [44:32] take is to be open with my body language [44:34] yes and then hopefully they'll open up [44:36] with me yeah you know that's exactly [44:38] right so I think [44:40] to really simplify it and again as I [44:43] said I don't love like choreographing [44:45] but the body language that is I think [44:48] the the most uh effective is to be open [44:53] to be kind of leaning forward you know [44:55] Palms up not wrapping yourself up not [44:58] the whole time yeah but what what you [45:00] want to be showing is I'm comfortable [45:02] and relaxed with you I'm interested in [45:04] you yeah and so I think that's that's [45:06] the posture that you want to take on and [45:08] people will mirror that one thing that [45:11] people in general people mirror each [45:14] other's body language right that's a way [45:15] that we sync up but there's one [45:19] exception and that's when there's a [45:20] power differential so if a powerful [45:23] person is interacting with somebody [45:24] that's clearly less powerful the [45:27] powerful person tends to become more [45:30] dominant in their body language and the [45:33] powerless person becomes more powerless [45:35] and we call that complementarity so I [45:38] think it's very important for people in [45:39] leadership positions to be aware that [45:42] when one of their you know employees [45:45] comes to talk to them they're probably a [45:47] little nervous and [45:50] to be very mindful of their body [45:52] language because you don't you don't [45:54] want them to shut down you want them to [45:55] feel comfortable and tell you what's [45:58] going on share their interests or their [46:00] problem or their challenge [46:02] penguin arms I never had that expression [46:05] until chapter nine of your book what's [46:07] penguin arms it's when people people [46:09] don't know what to do with their head a [46:11] lot of people don't know what to do with [46:12] their hands when they're speaking and so [46:15] they kind of like pin [46:17] they pin their wrist to their like [46:19] around their hips and their hands kind [46:22] of stick out [46:23] oh okay you're gonna look like a penguin [46:25] yeah it's it's really common for people [46:28] who are afraid of public speaking you'll [46:31] like they're like kind of moving their [46:33] hands but they're afraid to move their [46:35] arms away from their body besides [46:37] penguin arms let me just get I've got [46:38] this correctly is this penguin arms you [46:41] mean this yeah but you're talking I'm [46:43] like [46:44] yeah exactly that's penguin arms okay [46:47] and it's again because I'm I'm [46:49] I mean one of the this correlation [46:51] between how much space you take up and [46:52] how powerful you feel right again that's [46:54] me trying to take up less as little as [46:55] space as possible right and I'm [46:57] signaling so I'm speaking to you by [46:59] doing that even though regardless of [47:01] what my mouth is saying and if I'm like [47:03] this [47:04] yes I'm saying you're sending a [47:06] completely different message exactly and [47:07] people are remember the audience like [47:09] even a whole audience is responding to [47:12] you so if there's this whole [47:14] self-reinforce there's reinforcement [47:16] between you and the audience and within [47:18] the self so if you're acting that way [47:22] they might be mirroring you or feeling [47:25] kind of uncomfortable because you're [47:27] feeling anxious but you can make the [47:28] audience feel uncomfortable because [47:29] you're so uncomfortable for sure and [47:31] then and then you read that and you feel [47:34] more uncomfortable so it becomes you [47:36] know kind of re reinforced through the [47:39] interaction [47:41] this is this [47:42] interesting thing that happens to me [47:43] once in a while where I'll be speaking [47:45] to someone and it's usually someone I'm [47:48] gonna be honest right so it's usually [47:49] someone where [47:50] there's a lot of things about them but I [47:52] haven't told them [47:53] and I find it hard to hold eye contact [47:54] with them [47:56] and I notice this about myself to [47:57] certain people in my life where there's [47:59] like unaddressed things that haven't [48:00] fully spoken about and when I speak to [48:02] them I tend to not look at them and I [48:04] tend to just like be looking away or [48:06] looking down and I I will occasionally [48:08] glance over and look at them but this [48:10] broader point about eye contact and you [48:12] mentioned it briefly earlier on [48:14] what significance does it have in our [48:16] Communications and because I I find it [48:19] the hardest thing I can kind of I think [48:20] I can feign the body language I wish I [48:23] could make that I I can't give you a [48:25] simple answer and I that because there [48:28] are so many cultural differences oh [48:30] really in in when you make eye contact [48:33] so kids learn such different rules about [48:36] making eye contact [48:38] UM you know a lot of kids are taught you [48:41] don't make eye contact with an authority [48:43] figure right so and then they're seen as [48:45] lying because they're not making eye [48:47] contact uh you know um but but but [48:50] seeing it as rude to make eye contact it [48:53] means you know in a lot of East Asian [48:54] cultures eye contact you you don't hold [48:57] eye contact for as long it's seen this [48:59] very aggressive [49:01] um [49:02] in the U.S you can hold eye contact for [49:04] quite a while before people feel [49:05] uncomfortable [49:07] but it's you know it so yeah it's I [49:10] think it's one of the more culturally [49:11] constrained Expressions what am I in [49:14] primates I mean if I've watched all [49:16] these primate documentaries and it's [49:18] often the case that when primates kind [49:19] of look at each other for too long it [49:21] can it's often aggressive aggressive [49:23] yeah I I don't I and again I I would [49:26] have to defer to something like Bob [49:27] sapolski on that one but I think um I I [49:30] think that in non-human primates it you [49:34] know great apes it is it is a sign of [49:36] aggression [49:37] it is like bring it on yeah [49:40] and in certain contexts [49:42] yeah again it's so contextual and [49:43] cultural because as we were saying [49:46] before we start recording in the US if [49:48] someone stares at me in a lift I would [49:50] imagine that they're about to say hello [49:52] whereas in I don't know a rough part of [49:55] the UK [49:56] if someone stares at me I would check [49:58] where my wallet and my keys are and [50:00] assume that we had there's going to be a [50:02] problem yeah so yeah yeah I mean and [50:06] there are differences cultural [50:07] differences within the U.S too is it [50:09] possible to learn how to read people [50:11] better in terms of their body language [50:12] is that also something you can play oh [50:14] for sure I just think there's some [50:16] really great books like I I love Joe [50:19] Navarro's work he's a former FBI agent [50:22] he has a lot of images he really he's [50:24] not a researcher but grounds in the [50:26] research and has a lot of personal [50:28] experience the book that I love is is [50:31] what everybody is saying [50:34] um by Joe Navarro so I would recommend [50:36] that as a great way to start I think [50:38] there are some that are sort of like [50:39] more like [50:41] how to pick up women yeah yeah and I [50:44] don't like those this is just really [50:46] understanding people and what's [50:48] happening in an interaction I'm gonna [50:50] confess that when I was 18 I read one [50:52] such book about pickup artistry [50:55] and um it actually it actually was very [50:59] useful [51:00] had this conversation with my husband [51:01] it's so funny and [51:03] it's like the one thing he was like I [51:05] did read that oh yeah I mean yeah so it [51:07] was it was useful because I love [51:09] psychology I studied psychology at in in [51:12] school as well and um I chose that for [51:14] one of my a levels and it was useful [51:16] from that perspective I mean it's [51:18] probably why I do this now I was so [51:19] compelled to understand why humans do [51:21] what they do then I read this book which [51:23] I didn't intend to buy I'm gonna be [51:24] honest okay I've told the truth the [51:25] whole time so believe me when I say I [51:27] didn't intend to buy this book about [51:28] pickup Artistry my older brother ordered [51:31] it for home in the southwest of the UK [51:33] when he'd gone he put the wrong address [51:34] in when he was at University so it came [51:36] home and he goes I'll just keep it so I [51:38] open it and I opened up my bedroom floor [51:40] and I did not move until I'd finished [51:41] the entire book the first book where [51:43] from the first page till the last I [51:45] didn't move and it fascinated me because [51:47] it was just it was like someone turned [51:48] the lights on to this whole other [51:50] language that I'd been communicating my [51:52] whole life without knowing someone one [51:54] of the really things I always talk about [51:55] with my friends is this idea of pecking [51:57] which is this kind of invasion of [51:59] personal space that happens when you're [52:01] when you meet someone you're attracted [52:02] to yeah the music style out you lean [52:05] into their personal space [52:08] and how that signals like low value then [52:09] they lean out [52:11] um but all those things I found oh geez [52:13] I am the worst if I'm in a restaurant [52:16] and I see it a first date yeah [52:19] it is it can be so I want to slip a [52:23] napkin to the woman sometimes and like [52:26] like the guy will get up to go to the [52:28] bathroom and she is like you I'm I feel [52:30] like slipping a napkin and saying run [52:33] you know like it's just you can it's so [52:36] clear so quickly how it's going what are [52:40] the signs they are talking too much and [52:42] not asking questions oh my god um I mean [52:44] that that's I would say the most common [52:47] and and believing that they're very very [52:50] interesting [52:51] they are yeah so interesting [52:54] um and and it is leaning in and taking [52:57] into too much taking up too much space [53:00] and you can see the and I'm sorry I'm [53:02] talking about straight couples and so [53:04] because I I don't know enough about [53:08] um [53:09] other dyads but I mean in this in the [53:12] context of body language but [53:14] you see the woman clearly tensing up [53:19] she's making herself smaller to get away [53:22] she may not be literally leaning away [53:24] she's closing herself up and she women [53:29] were people in that situation when they [53:31] want to get away they often do these lip [53:33] presses like this [53:36] um and so you start to see the lip [53:39] presses [53:40] and then making themselves smaller and [53:43] you know and and leaning right in fact [53:45] um we were watching a TV show last night [53:48] that might be called The Bachelorette [53:49] this happened and the the guy was [53:53] holding her The Bachelorette like [53:55] hugging her [53:57] and like she wasn't [54:00] forcefully lean away but I was like oh [54:03] it's too close she really does not like [54:05] that but she was being very polite it [54:07] was like painful to watch so in real [54:10] life well I've had to bite my tongue at [54:13] times what's the opposite of that then [54:15] when you look over in a restaurant [54:16] because me and my girlfriend do this I [54:17] think everybody does this well not [54:19] everybody clearly but just weirdos like [54:21] us that are into psychology who look [54:23] over another couple and go they're [54:24] getting on really really great they're [54:26] into each other this is not because me [54:28] and my girlfriend we go to restaurants [54:28] we always think like is this a first [54:30] date how long have they been together [54:31] are they married are they into each [54:33] other obviously the really bad examples [54:36] is when they're both leaning out on [54:37] their phones yes and I'm like oh my God [54:39] yeah so not picking up their phones [54:42] leaning in toward each other yeah um [54:45] yeah good eye contact about balance and [54:49] in conversation expressions of genuine [54:52] curiosity where you can kind of see [54:54] their face light up when they hear the [54:56] person the other person say something [54:57] like they're really intrigued the other [55:00] one always one of them gets up to go to [55:03] the bathroom yeah and to me the the tell [55:06] is what does the other person do when [55:10] that person this makes me look like I'm [55:13] not watching you all on your dates I [55:15] swear you learn so am I [55:17] we both are and that's fine [55:20] but [55:22] when the other person goes to the [55:24] bathroom if the ones that at the table [55:26] is like you can tell their smile like [55:28] they can't stop smiling [55:31] um and maybe they're texting somebody [55:32] and they're but their cheeks like almost [55:34] you can tell her cheeks almost hurt from [55:36] smiling they're it's like they're [55:38] letting the they're so excited they [55:40] don't want to act over the top with the [55:42] person but when the person steps away [55:44] they allow themselves to feel that joy [55:47] that to me is the talent that's exciting [55:50] you're like oh that's so nice Something [55:52] Beautiful is happening and the little [55:53] grooming signals as well like when you [55:55] know they you know they might yeah that [55:58] they smell well and things like right [56:00] I guess the I guess the last piece is [56:02] about [56:04] being able to fake body language [56:08] can people do that can we fake it I mean [56:11] you can try is it effective I usually [56:14] not it because you get those [56:17] asynchranies right so it's too much [56:20] think think about all of the non-verbal [56:22] challenge channels you've got vocal cue [56:26] they call it the paralinguistic cues [56:28] like tone of voice range of voice how [56:31] quickly or slowly you speak you've got [56:33] your your fingers your hands your arms [56:36] there's too much [56:38] to do to fake it for you know uh [56:44] and and to make it consistent with what [56:46] you're saying probably you know the [56:48] greatest actors can [56:51] pretty well [56:52] but I mean to me it's just it's it's so [56:56] likely to fail that it's not even worth [56:58] trying and I I don't think it's honest I [57:01] super interesting for me because between [57:03] the age of I'm gonna say 14 and [57:07] let's go for 21. I was in my view I [57:11] think I was kind of rejected by every [57:13] um woman that I pursued [57:15] and I think I was inherently low value [57:17] and didn't realize it so when I read [57:18] these books about pickup Artistry and [57:20] all this stuff I read all this work I [57:22] tried to do what the book said and it [57:24] was unsuccessful like fundamentally [57:26] unsuccessful my life changed when I [57:29] actually changed like when my actual [57:31] opinion of myself changed and I was [57:33] saying this to my friend the other day [57:34] who's who's going through a bit of a [57:35] process where [57:37] um they're struggling with that same [57:38] thing I said you know what I wasn't able [57:40] to lie to myself I tried waiting longer [57:42] to text back I tried this I tried all of [57:45] these things and my conclusion from that [57:47] chapter of my life is there's a thousand [57:49] little things that ways we communicate [57:51] it's exactly what you just said I said [57:52] to my friend the other day there's a [57:53] thousand ways we can communicate and you [57:55] might think you can control three or [57:56] four of them but as humans that have [57:58] evolved over those 200 000 years were so [58:01] good at knowing what someone really [58:02] thinks and feels [58:04] and so I guess my question here is like [58:06] I came to the conclusion and then this [58:07] was when I was giving my friends some [58:09] advice through the days you can't fake [58:10] it you have to actually go and change [58:12] yourself story like you can know the [58:15] tips and tricks but that wasn't enough [58:16] for me [58:17] to actually get the you know [58:19] and it was honestly the thing that [58:21] changed in my life was when my opinion [58:22] of myself changed right and it's and I [58:25] it sounds so weird to say but I'm sure [58:27] nobody's listening [58:29] um the profunda the profundity of the [58:31] change I just can't I can't describe it [58:34] not not even in the relationship being [58:36] able to attract people but just in every [58:38] context like I don't know what changed I [58:41] don't know what I did all I know is that [58:42] something deep within me my story of who [58:44] I am changed and that means that when I [58:46] show up in places I stand differently [58:48] yeah your non-verbal sort of experts [58:51] talk about Inside Out change yeah right [58:54] as opposed to outside in yeah [58:56] um because people have clicked this [58:57] video right now click this podcast [58:58] because they went outside in chain I [59:01] know they do I know and it's like I [59:03] always feel like look I'm a body [59:04] language person but that doesn't mean [59:05] I'm going to give you a hat full of [59:07] tricks [59:08] it just doesn't because it's not going [59:09] to work that wouldn't be right and it's [59:11] funny too because the quote that I'm [59:14] best known for is fake it till you [59:15] become it and [59:17] what I mean by that it is fake it till [59:22] you make it to me has always meant [59:25] pretend that you know things you don't [59:28] know for pretend that you are a person [59:30] that you're not until you get the job [59:33] but what do you do then you keep faking [59:36] it [59:36] so fake it till you make it is fooling [59:39] other people [59:40] fake it till you become it is expand [59:43] allow yourself to feel powerful enough [59:45] to really understand who you are to know [59:49] what your story is to be to be more [59:52] focused on the impression you're making [59:54] on yourself than on others [59:56] um to grow to be less afraid of these [59:58] challenges [60:00] and eventually [60:02] you know maybe you know standing in [60:04] those big positions [60:06] alone feels a little awkward at first [60:09] and you're faking it but eventually you [60:11] become that person and you know that's [60:14] what happened with my student who I talk [60:16] about in the Ted Talk who had not [60:19] participated at all the whole semester [60:21] and I I was gonna have to fail her and I [60:23] said you have to participate [60:26] and she finally raised her hand on the [60:28] last class I said I'll call on you and [60:30] first of all her comment was amazing and [60:32] people's head spun like they hadn't [60:33] noticed her but she continued to use [60:36] these ideas and she came back to me [60:38] later like six months or a year later [60:42] and she said she said to me I want you [60:45] to know I'm so happy now because she had [60:48] come into my office and said I feel like [60:49] an imposter I don't belong here I'm from [60:51] this small town I was like so am I if I [60:54] belong here you do [60:56] she came back to me after graduating and [60:58] finding and actually getting into [61:00] education and not business and she said [61:04] those things that we talked about I did [61:07] and I realized I wasn't faking it till I [61:09] made it I was faking it till I became it [61:11] and now I'm the person that I wanted to [61:13] be [61:16] that makes so much sense [61:19] so expand yourself [61:21] so that you can get the evidence you [61:24] need to become the thing that you [61:25] exactly our parents and grandparents [61:27] told us to sit up straight as a show of [61:29] respect to others and kids hate that [61:32] it's [61:34] kids you know to teach kids to sit up [61:36] straight as a show of respect to [61:38] themselves [61:39] and that allows you to be more open to [61:44] to be less defensive to allow the truth [61:48] of who you are in [61:51] it's hard to confront ourselves [61:54] it takes courage [61:56] so by adopting those powerful postures [62:00] by feeling personally powerful you are [62:04] generating the courage to confront [62:05] yourself to know yourself to introduce [62:08] yourself to yourself [62:10] ladies and gentlemen today is a very big [62:13] day for me because the Diary of a CEO [62:16] book is finally out it's been published [62:18] today the 33 laws of business and life [62:21] I've spent many years writing this book [62:23] but I've spent even longer about a [62:25] decade and a half compiling the [62:27] information that exists in this book if [62:30] you are somebody that has any intent at [62:32] some point in your life of building [62:34] something whether it's building a great [62:36] team at work whether it's a football [62:38] team a netball team a business an [62:40] organization a charity anything at all [62:42] that you want to build that's going to [62:44] require you to understand people [62:45] understand how to tell great stories and [62:48] maybe most importantly of all understand [62:49] yourself then I believe this book is a [62:53] must read and you know what I've written [62:55] a book before [62:56] this is my second book but this is the [62:59] one this is the book that will give you [63:00] the most value there's a link right now [63:02] in the description below and for 30 [63:04] people that order the book [63:06] and post it on their social media and [63:08] tag me you'll be getting a very special [63:10] Gold version of the book [63:13] please read it then please message me on [63:15] every social media platform and let me [63:17] know what you think [63:18] thank you a quick word on huel as you [63:21] know they're a sponsor of this podcast [63:22] and I'm an investor in the company one [63:24] of the things I've never really [63:25] explained is how I came to have a [63:27] relationship with huel one day in the [63:28] office many years ago a guy walked past [63:30] called Michael and he was wearing a [63:32] heeled t-shirt and I was really [63:34] compelled by the logo I just thought [63:35] from a design aesthetic point of view it [63:37] was really interesting and I asked him [63:39] what that word meant and why he was [63:40] wearing that T-shirt and he said it's [63:42] this brand called heal and they make [63:44] food that is nutritionally complete and [63:46] very very convenient and has the planet [63:48] in mind and he the next day dropped off [63:51] a little bottle of fuel on my desk and [63:53] from that day onwards I completely got [63:55] it because I'm someone that cares [63:57] tremendously about having a [63:58] nutritionally complete diet but [64:00] sometimes because of the way my life is [64:02] that falls by the wayside so if there [64:04] was a really convenient reliable [64:06] trustworthy way for me to be [64:08] nutritionally complete in an affordable [64:10] way I was all ears especially if it's a [64:12] way that is conscious of the planet give [64:14] it a chance give it a shot let me know [64:16] what you think [64:17] as I've read through your story I came [64:19] across this moment where there was some [64:22] academic bullying in your life and this [64:24] appeared to me to be the a real pivotal [64:30] um hurtful chapter of your life it's now [64:33] the basis for [64:35] some of the work that you're doing and [64:36] some of the things you're writing about [64:40] what what do I need to know about what [64:42] happened there to understand the lessons [64:45] that you've taken from that [64:46] um chapter [64:49] I I would rather endure any physical [64:53] pain than go through that and I have [64:55] interviewed I mean it went on for years [64:58] I became [65:00] just fair game it was because the [65:05] bullies had been so successfully [65:08] diminished demeaned stigmatized me [65:12] that anyone else who felt the need to [65:14] act out could act out against me it was [65:17] okay so [65:20] the mountain of you know social media [65:25] um uh evidence of of this bullying is [65:29] overwhelming and I can't even look [65:30] through it I have to have someone else [65:33] sort through that I am not talking about [65:35] Anonymous trolls this was other [65:38] academics [65:39] this was about me it was personal they [65:42] they they're they were not [65:45] hiding behind anonymity every person [65:48] I've interviewed for this book has been [65:50] been bullied every adult has said [65:53] it's the worst thing that ever happened [65:55] to me [65:56] and [65:57] I felt like I was dying or I wanted to [66:00] die [66:01] for a long time because it is social [66:04] death it is social death and without [66:06] community [66:08] we we are we are in a bad place I mean [66:11] we we do need each other [66:13] the facts of my life were stolen from me [66:16] my story was Rewritten so much so that I [66:21] could not do an interview without having [66:24] to correct [66:25] all kinds of disinformation about me [66:28] right so the whole you know telling the [66:31] way you tell your story to yourself [66:33] matters peace wow that was hard I had to [66:36] keep doing that to survive it because [66:39] other people were telling a story that [66:42] was a lie and that was deeply hurting me [66:45] I mean emotionally professionally [66:50] um hurting my family I mean it was [66:52] terrible I was [66:55] I I almost died I almost decided to die [67:00] and [67:02] um [67:04] and that's very common for people who [67:07] are bullied [67:08] and [67:13] I'm not through it it's those I mean I'm [67:16] I'm through the worst of it but it still [67:18] it still comes up and and and there are [67:21] there are there's disinformation in news [67:24] articles that that these bullies sort of [67:27] got out there [67:28] that will always circulate I can never I [67:31] can't get rid of all of that right it [67:33] will pop up every once in a while and [67:36] people go but yeah but I heard you did [67:37] this and you're like no [67:40] that's incorrect [67:42] um and so every time that pops up [67:45] it's it's just like a dagger again it it [67:49] is an absolute theft of your life it is [67:52] it is [67:55] absolutely [67:58] it is absolutely devastating [68:00] and in the workplace it's remarkably [68:04] common [68:05] and [68:07] the estimates by people who study [68:10] workplace bullying are that [68:13] oh more than 90 of people who become [68:16] targets of workplace bullying [68:19] dis disappear from that job and when I [68:22] say disappear I mean they're either [68:24] fired because the bully flips it around [68:27] and they're seen as the difficult person [68:30] or their move to a different department [68:32] or they quit because they can't endure [68:34] it [68:35] or they die of a stress related illness [68:37] or they take their own lives [68:40] um [68:41] suicide rates are very high for for [68:43] adults for children and adult bullying [68:45] targets [68:47] if I was in your household around that [68:49] time what would I have seen and I asked [68:51] that question because [68:52] people never get to see that right they [68:54] get to see either silence or they might [68:57] get to see a statement but [69:08] um [69:13] you know what I'm thinking right now is [69:15] that my boys are going to hear this and [69:17] they're gonna be laughing and they're [69:19] gonna be they're gonna be saying that [69:21] I'm exaggerating you know like but who [69:24] cares why if they say that but I it's [69:27] still like I'm so afraid of them still [69:31] um [69:35] I was you know Raising a Son who is just [69:40] a lovely remarkable person I'm like [69:47] I can't believe that he [69:50] grew up to be such a wonderful person [69:53] because for so much of his teenage life [69:55] I was going through this and it was [69:59] so hard to be present but I had to be [70:04] like I need [70:07] there was this constant conflict that I [70:09] had how much do I tell him about [70:13] um [70:15] how much do I Shield him from it can I [70:18] Shield him from it because [70:21] you know my God my husband who [70:27] was just like wanted so desperately to [70:31] fix it for me and he he's a scientist [70:34] and he understood very well the [70:37] statistical arguments as better than [70:39] than most people in my field do and he [70:41] would engage with these bullies and that [70:43] would escalate he was he was for sure [70:46] traumatized by it [70:48] um [70:50] I was just curled up in a ball and then [70:54] amazingly I was still able to go out and [70:57] speak and for that hour [70:59] I was safe [71:02] and and then I would I would hide again [71:05] and [71:08] I was just so afraid [71:10] uh [71:11] I just felt like I was dying I would [71:13] just I think almost every day I said I [71:15] feel like I'm dying [71:17] uh it was it was I [71:22] it just the darkest of dark [71:25] um [71:28] they [71:29] like I'm grieving [71:31] still the loss [71:34] of [71:35] again the facts of my life [71:38] and a future that I thought I was going [71:40] to have even though [71:42] I and this is that whole Silver Lining [71:45] thing I'm actually happier now [71:48] in the life that I'm in [71:51] I had to leave my job I wasn't forced [71:54] out at all and in fact I want to be [71:56] clear because this isn't the bullies [71:58] love to say that I was denied tenure I [72:00] was not denied tenure I chose to leave [72:02] my Dean was incredibly supportive of me [72:05] I could not live in that toxic house [72:08] anymore it was filled with fumes it was [72:11] I I I would have died if I had stayed so [72:15] in Academia period you left your job yes [72:19] my my full-time you know tenure track [72:22] position and that's after I had been [72:25] promoted twice like I had worked so hard [72:28] to get there [72:30] I had an excellent record of research [72:34] um [72:36] I wanted to stay there I I wanted to [72:40] continue to do work around sexism and [72:42] racism I [72:43] I thought maybe I would eventually get [72:45] into the administration I wanted to like [72:49] that was the life that I thought I [72:52] hadn't and [72:55] they made it impossible for me to stay [72:59] yes it was my choice and no it wasn't my [73:01] choice [73:03] um they sold my future [73:06] now I have a different one maybe that's [73:08] maybe that's better but it doesn't take [73:10] away the pain of that loss it's sort of [73:13] like [73:14] it's like [73:16] losing a spouse a spouse dying Young [73:22] and then you get remarried a few years [73:24] later and you're happy in your new [73:26] marriage and maybe you're even happier [73:28] but you'll never stop grieving [73:30] the loss of that first person right it's [73:33] that's how this feels [73:36] um [73:38] and that's why it's taking me like four [73:41] years to write this book [73:43] because it's a lot it's a it's a lot to [73:46] tell my own story I'm scared and it's a [73:49] lot to [73:50] hold other people's stories because I [73:53] know how they feel I know how hard it is [73:55] I mean [73:56] I've interviewed people whose adult [73:59] children have taken their own lives [74:01] because they were so badly bullied in [74:04] the workplace [74:07] it was it was just torture [74:13] my [74:14] collaborators were tortured [74:19] and [74:22] lost so much [74:25] fighting this [74:27] disinformation and just this this [74:30] meanness [74:32] my son in the last six months has had [74:35] two friends who were taking psychology [74:37] courses [74:40] learn this disinformation about me in [74:43] their psychology courses because again [74:45] it just sort of lives on and so now he's [74:48] coming going [74:50] I don't understand [74:52] can I ask you everyone's question here [74:53] because I [74:54] did lots of research on you didn't [74:56] really come across any of that [74:59] it's amazing I didn't so I don't know [75:01] the details of it um what I what I've [75:03] have inferred from what you're saying is [75:05] that people try to discredit you yes and [75:06] your intentions yes is that accurate yes [75:09] okay so they try to discredit you me my [75:12] intentions my my actions [75:15] um [75:16] and to prevent me from [75:19] doing more work doing more work right [75:21] makes sense yes [75:26] what do you think their motivations were [75:29] I can tell you that [75:33] a small percentage of people I believe [75:35] are what I call primary bullies like [75:38] they are the ones who get the ball [75:40] rolling [75:41] if they're alone and I you know we [75:44] chatted about this earlier but if [75:46] they're alone they're just yeah [75:49] but when they recruit people then they [75:52] become bullies [75:53] and [75:55] they tend to be repeat offenders [75:59] what they want is status and recognition [76:03] they feel that they have not gotten as [76:08] much as they deserve [76:10] and they resent people who they perceive [76:13] as getting more than they deserved [76:16] and so when they perceive that [76:20] they'll start to go after that person in [76:23] little ways and I call that the bully [76:25] test the bullies testing to see if [76:28] people will [76:29] allow that to happen and if people don't [76:33] push back and this is where bystanders [76:36] could get involved right away and say [76:37] that's not okay [76:39] I so wish more people had done that in [76:42] my case [76:44] then they escalate very quickly and they [76:47] are basically they are gaining status by [76:50] taking away your status [76:52] it's I don't think it's about [76:54] power as much as it is about status [76:57] there are people who are very powerful [76:59] but still feel like they're not getting [77:02] the recognition and status that they [77:03] deserve and their bullies it is [77:06] motivated I believe in general again I [77:10] don't know what motivated my bullies by [77:12] a need for status [77:14] and [77:16] one of the commonalities across bullies [77:19] is that they tend to have a scarcity [77:22] mindset [77:24] they see the world as everything is zero [77:27] sum everything's affixed buy and that [77:31] means if if somebody else is getting [77:33] status or success it's somehow taking [77:37] away from their from them [77:39] you know Einstein once said the most [77:40] important question that you'll answer [77:43] for yourself [77:44] is sort of is the universe fundamentally [77:48] hostile or friendly [77:50] because the way you answer that will [77:53] affect the way you do your work [77:55] and how you interact with people and [77:58] what what you aspire to [78:01] these are people who would say the world [78:04] is fundamentally hostile [78:06] the bullies are yes [78:09] and that's the commonality across [78:12] bullies I think there are some myths [78:14] about bullies like the idea that bullied [78:17] people become bullies [78:18] some do [78:20] and most don't in fact a lot of the [78:24] people who I call bravehearts who stand [78:26] up against bullies were bullied [78:28] so it's it's not that bullied people [78:31] become bullies it's not that you know [78:35] you know it's not that they're they have [78:37] such low self-esteem and they can't [78:38] sleep at night they actually they can [78:41] sleep at night they're okay with what [78:43] they're doing they think they're right [78:46] um yeah [78:49] but we there are way there's so many [78:51] ways and I I this is maybe another [78:53] conversation for next year [78:55] there's so many opportunities for [78:58] bystanders to get involved early so that [79:01] it doesn't escalate to this full-blown [79:04] bullying campaign because once you're [79:05] there the person is is is is is is [79:08] socially killed [79:10] do you think this is an inevitable [79:12] byproduct of being successful [79:14] because you talk those primary bullies [79:17] they see status as the the game so you [79:21] become really successful in your [79:22] industry you get a TED Talk which [79:23] becomes one of the most watched ever you [79:25] know your podcast becomes big those [79:27] Primary people are going to say [79:29] he or she is getting too much credit [79:31] what can I do to tear them down give me [79:35] a little bit of credit take back some of [79:36] that zero some status [79:39] um so you know so is it a inevitable [79:42] what do they call it um occupational [79:43] hazardous yeah so I don't think I think [79:47] it's common [79:48] for you for successful people to have [79:51] haters [79:53] that doesn't always turn into bullying [79:56] also [79:58] the people who tend to be targets [80:01] tend to be people who have okay so if [80:05] you if you think about the kind of the [80:07] workplace or the profession and then [80:10] the rest of the world [80:13] they have lower status in their [80:15] profession than they do with the rest of [80:17] the world [80:18] and so I was a junior researcher I [80:22] wasn't you know supposed to get this [80:24] much attention and [80:28] I just gave a TED talk like that you [80:30] know I [80:31] I wasn't going out looking for status [80:33] that's what happened it happened to go [80:36] viral but the targets tend to be people [80:40] who are below the average on status in [80:45] with with the in-group and then cross [80:48] what some researchers have called the [80:50] line of resentment and then they become [80:53] targets or they're viable targets they [80:55] don't necessarily become targets but [80:57] they're viable targets so people who [80:59] have very high status in inside and get [81:02] high status outside they're much less [81:04] likely to be bullied [81:07] interesting so to sort of clarify that [81:09] in words that I just make sure I [81:10] understand if I am [81:13] in a school yeah and I am maybe in the [81:18] lower [81:20] quartile of popularity I'm not so [81:23] popular but then something happens which [81:25] means outside of school I become super [81:26] famous yes you know I blow up in the [81:29] news outside of school and everyone's [81:30] talking about me and they love me the [81:32] people in school yeah there's going to [81:34] be a group of people in school that go [81:35] we need to Reign this guy back in [81:36] there's going to be a couple of people [81:38] and you hear those stories and you've [81:40] interviewed a lot of celebrities and you [81:43] know when you talk to celebrities like [81:44] people who who got famous as kids [81:48] a lot of them were bullied and people [81:51] are shocked they're like but you but [81:52] everyone else loved you yeah yeah but [81:54] that's exactly [81:55] why they got bullied in their schools [81:58] yeah because they weren't supposed to [82:00] succeed I I've heard this story many [82:03] times on this podcast Amy I [82:05] you know like as in this someone doing [82:07] well [82:08] um a group of people thinking that [82:10] they've punched too far above their way [82:11] yep and then exactly trying to tear them [82:14] back down with disinformation [82:15] misinformation whatever it's so common [82:18] um [82:19] are you optimistic that it can change [82:21] honestly really yes I think it's human [82:25] well I would like to see it change but I [82:27] part of me goes I think this is just [82:29] humans yeah but but this is you know [82:31] what we if so if we said that about [82:34] racism and misogyny and ageism it's just [82:37] human nature people would go that's not [82:39] okay like a lot of people would object [82:41] on that statement and say yes we can do [82:44] better but no I absolutely believe that [82:47] if people can understand the anatomy of [82:50] bullying how it works and what it looks [82:53] like in the beginning what are the early [82:55] signs what are the little things they [82:57] can do to be socially Brave [82:59] and collectively turn things around [83:02] I think that that that we will see [83:05] change in in workplaces first the [83:09] psychological [83:11] research shows that we can turn this [83:14] around [83:16] I think you're right actually [83:18] thank you no I do think you're right [83:19] just because because when you make the [83:21] similarity between things like racism [83:22] and sexism it's it's really really about [83:24] cultural acceptance isn't it whether we [83:26] whether we someone performs that [83:28] behavior whether we go that's that's [83:29] fine whether we clap whether we go you [83:31] know we're going to reject you if you do [83:32] that again exactly [83:34] um and we're all governed by incentives [83:36] in this Society aren't we so it's just [83:38] about an incentive disincentive yes [83:40] interesting [83:42] what's the most important thing that we [83:44] haven't talked about that maybe we [83:45] should have [83:46] yeah I mean we've talked a lot about [83:48] trust but I guess [83:50] so so I guess I just want to summarize [83:52] sort of all of that talk about trust [83:55] it just that [83:56] you know a lot of people in the business [84:00] World make the mistake of thinking that [84:02] they gotta go in and be the smartest [84:04] person in the room [84:05] so they've got to show confidence [84:08] and they do that at the expense of [84:10] demonstrating their trustworthiness [84:13] and and if you do not establish earn [84:16] trust build trust [84:18] you you have no medium through which [84:21] your ideas can travel so trust is the [84:23] conduit of influence it's not a soft [84:26] idea it's a true idea this is just the [84:29] way people are if you come in and and [84:33] you start talking at them and you [84:35] haven't listened to them you don't know [84:37] what they're about they don't feel like [84:38] you care it doesn't matter if you have [84:41] the best idea in the world you're [84:42] throwing it against a brick wall you [84:44] know you have got to earn an established [84:47] trust [84:48] in order to influence people [84:51] and how do you establish trust not [84:53] thinking that you have to take the floor [84:54] first so a lot of people feel that [84:56] especially in business settings they [84:59] like a negotiation they feel like [85:01] they've got to drop the anchor they have [85:03] to talk first [85:04] when in reality [85:06] it's [85:08] often much more effective to ask [85:12] questions and learn about the other [85:14] person you're showing first that I [85:16] you're interested that you understand [85:18] them and you're actually gaining [85:20] information right so so that you when [85:23] you respond you're not giving up power [85:26] at all you're building trust and [85:28] learning and and then you when you when [85:32] you respond [85:33] they trust that your response is based [85:37] on [85:38] you actually knowing them right so they [85:40] feel seen they they've been seen so [85:43] that's I think you know there are so [85:45] many things but I I that that's one that [85:48] I think is is really effective [85:50] we have a closing tradition on this [85:51] podcast where the Alaska leaves a [85:52] question for the next guest not knowing [85:53] who they're going to leave the question [85:54] for [85:55] and the question left for you is [85:58] if we discovered a cure for sadness [86:03] such that we would never need ex need [86:06] experience it again [86:09] would you support [86:11] the development of that cure [86:18] I'm on the [86:22] oh geez I I feel like I'm gonna get [86:25] myself in trouble but [86:26] you know I referred to Susan Kane [86:28] earlier her book quiet her new book is [86:31] called Bittersweet and it is about [86:35] allowing ourselves to feel sadness to [86:38] grieve that it is in many ways healing I [86:41] mean why do we listen to sad songs it we [86:44] get some pleasure from it we heal from [86:46] it so I I'm gonna have to say I I'm [86:49] going for the Bittersweet and not the No [86:52] No sadness [86:53] imagine a world without sadness I don't [86:55] think that would be a nice world I think [86:56] sadness is like hot and cold and sad and [87:00] happy I don't think you have one without [87:01] the other unfortunately I don't think so [87:03] either and it's in a signal right it's a [87:04] human signal that our bodies send us to [87:06] tell us it's information yeah process [87:09] loss and things like that yes I [87:12] completely agree with you and to feel [87:13] empathy and compassion and want to help [87:15] others so [87:17] thank you so much thank you thank you so [87:19] much it was delightful really really [87:21] delightful I like so much and um in the [87:23] process of reading your work and [87:25] watching your videos I learned an [87:27] incredible amount and um [87:29] you've really helped me I've had so many [87:31] little personal epiphanies as we've been [87:32] speaking [87:33] so many of them and I'm actually really [87:35] really excited about your upcoming book [87:37] about bullying and bystanders because [87:38] there's not really a big conversation [87:39] happening but if there was ever a time [87:42] for this conversation in the world we [87:44] live in in these like [87:45] pants or culture mobs and the Twitter [87:48] sphere and all of this stuff it's a big [87:50] conversation in the UK at this exact [87:52] moment for a variety of reasons there's [87:54] been a big couple of big moments in the [87:56] UK [87:57] um it's it's it's it's now is the time [87:59] to have a really like professional [88:00] nuanced conversation about it yes and to [88:03] see if there is a way yes to have a [88:05] language so we can actually talk about [88:07] it yeah I would love to speak to you [88:09] again when that become when that book [88:11] comes out wonderful to do but thank you [88:14] so much for all of your time today it's [88:15] been really really fascinating really [88:17] opening conversation and you know what I [88:19] I think you're a wonderful human being I [88:21] think you're a warm competent which is [88:25] what I aspire to be one day thank you I [88:28] think you're wonderful too thank you so [88:30] much Amy means a lot to me thank you [88:32] thank you [88:32] [Music] [88:39] oh [88:41] [Music] [88:49] foreign [88:49] [Music] [88:55] you got to the end of this podcast [88:57] whenever someone gets to the end of this [88:58] podcast I feel like I owe them a greater [89:00] debt of gratitude because that means you [89:01] listen to the whole thing and hopefully [89:03] that suggests that you enjoyed it if you [89:05] are at the end and you enjoyed this [89:07] podcast could you do me a little bit of [89:09] a favor and hit that subscribe button [89:11] that's one of the clearest indicators we [89:13] have that this episode was a good [89:14] episode and we look at that on all of [89:15] the episodes to see which episodes [89:17] generated the most subscribers [89:19] thank you so much and I'll see you again [89:21] next time