金宇澄窦文涛论上海文化 称空间逼仄与商业契约催生精算人格

金宇澄窦文涛论上海文化 称空间逼仄与商业契约催生精算人格 上海人被外界视为冷漠的边界感与精打细算，本质是近代租界避难潮的极端拥挤与工商业秩序共同倒逼出的生存理性，而语言壁垒的消解正加速其向规则主导的移民都市转变。 本期节目聚焦海派文化的内核演变与独特的市民心理机制。窦文涛与马未都、金宇澄、周轶君等嘉宾从半两粮票、石库门“一户一水表”、斜切带鱼等琐碎生活细节切入，深入剖析了上海人在局促空间中磨砺出的精细算计、边界感与克制自律。对话进一步探讨了普通话普及浪潮下沪语的式微、新移民的涌入对城市性格的重塑，以及海派文学与交往中“不响”的留白哲学。全片通过南北观念的生动碰撞，揭示了上海在商业文明与历史租界背景下形成的实用主义契约精神与独特的公私界限辩证法。 上海人精打细算的性格根植于历史生存环境，从半两粮票、按只买菜到石库门公用水池的“一户一表”，无不体现拥挤空间下以明晰产权和规矩维系公共秩序的务实智慧。 (0:00) 在人口流动和普通话普及的冲击下，上海话面临传承断层；金宇澄在创作小说《繁花》时通过剔除生僻怪字、全书不写“侬”字，成功实现了吴语韵味与全国读者阅读体验的平衡。 (18:18) 海派文化深层奉行“精算师”与“不响”的情感逻辑，相较于北方的猛打猛冲，上海人在恋爱、婚姻与人际交往中普遍保持克制与边界感，鲜少歇斯底里或倾家荡产。 (34:41) 上海著名的“穿睡衣上街”现象并非缺乏教养，而是极度逼仄的居住条件下将弄堂视为家庭内部延伸的独特公私界限划分。 (40:52)

[16:25] 马未都: 在我的理解中，方言的优越性就在于词汇，上海话在词汇上和其他地方是截然不同的。 [24:32] 你写作的语言就是你思维的语言

[0:00] Is the term "Shanghainese" derogatory or [0:02] positive? Back then. [0:04] >> Uh, in the North, it might have been a [0:06] ... [0:06] >> Look, when it enters a different [0:08] linguistic system—take today's [0:09] Shanghainese, for instance—if they call [0:11] you an "outsider," [0:12] >> doesn't that carry a sense of looking [0:14] down on someone? [0:15] >> Nowadays, it seems intellectuals in [0:18] Shanghai don't really use the term " [0:21] outsider." That term is mostly used by [0:23] the petty bourgeoisie. [0:25] >> Mm. [0:26] >> Only the urban working class would say [0:29] it like that. Northerners are different [0:30] ; they are coarse and can't stand how [0:32] meticulous the Shanghainese are. How [0:34] meticulous are the Shanghainese in their [0:35] daily affairs? For example, the most [0:36] meticulous thing in Shanghai, and what [0:38] left the deepest impression on me, was [0:39] the "half-tael" food ration coupon. [0:41] Looking back, if you went to Shanghai [0:42] and saw a half-tael coupon, you’d be [0:43] stunned; you wouldn't even know what you [0:44] could buy with it. [0:45] >> Does this "half-tael" actually represent [0:46] the meticulous nature of the [0:47] Shanghainese? Right? Only Shanghai had [0:50] it. [0:50] >> Because the one who mentioned this [0:51] half-tael ration coupon the most was the [0:53] old man's son; he often brought it up. [0:54] >> Mm. [0:55] >> I have also written articles about this [0:57] online. Because I spent many, many years [0:59] in the North. He was an educated youth. [1:02] >> So, the North and the South—no, not the [1:04] South, but the North and Shanghai— [1:06] actually have many differences in their [1:08] daily habits. What does "half-tael" [1:11] actually mean? It means that in Shanghai [1:13] , things were sold in half-tael portions [1:15] . You didn't have that in Beijing during [1:17] the rationing era. [1:17] >> It's just coarse, simply coarse. [1:20] >> For instance, a single wonton would be [1:21] half a tael. Mm. [1:23] >> So in the afternoon, you could just buy [1:25] one wonton or one mooncake—a mooncake [1:27] would weigh half a tael. In the North, [1:29] they sold mooncakes by the catty; they’d [1:32] say, "Give me three catties of mooncakes [1:34] ." [1:34] >> Or take deep-fried dough sticks, [1:36] ordering two catties at a time. But in [1:38] Shanghai, each dough stick was half a [1:40] tael, sold individually. Buying things [1:42] individually started early in Shanghai. [1:44] So, back then, people would joke about a [1:47] Northerner who ordered "one catty of [1:49] wontons," and ended up with twenty bowls [1:52] served in front of him. [1:53] >> Because they were all Northerners who [1:55] didn't understand. [1:56] >> Still, the Shanghainese are meticulous. [1:59] Take my early trips to Shanghai, as I [2:01] went there quite often. Making public [2:03] calls was common, right? [2:04] >> Making a call in Beijing versus making a [2:06] call in Shanghai—there was this very [2:08] interesting phenomenon; there would [2:10] always be an old lady standing right [2:11] next to you. Just as you finished one [2:13] call—say, I finished calling Dou Wentao [2:15] and was moving on to call Zhou Yijing, [2:17] making consecutive calls—before you [2:19] could finish, she’d tap on you and say [2:21] something in Shanghainese, like "Are you [2:23] done yet? Is it over?" [2:25] >> At first, I couldn't understand her. [2:27] >> I just felt like he was constantly [2:29] annoying me. Back then, when making [2:31] calls for money, you had to be efficient [2:33] and finish them all quickly, but it kept [2:35] prompting you on how many you’d made. [2:37] >> In Beijing, no one would prompt you like [2:38] that; if they did, you’d start a fight, [2:40] like, "What are you trying to do?" [2:41] >> I'm just making a phone call, aren't you [2:43] just causing trouble? But in Shanghai, [2:45] you don't feel it's messy; people are [2:47] very practical, one, two, three—they [2:48] just add it up for you right there. [2:50] >> The other day, a classmate of mine in [2:52] Shanghai told me that a taxi driver was [2:54] about to change shifts and didn't want [2:56] to go that way. He told him, "Look, it's [2:58] time for me to go home, I even bought [3:00] crabs specially to eat when I get home. [3:02] " He pulled the bag out, and it was just [3:04] two. [3:06] But seeing a lot online now, I feel that [3:09] in today's era of dieting, I tell you, [3:11] Shanghai people are great, really, their [3:14] whole lifestyle—you don't need to eat [3:17] that many crabs, you know what I mean? [3:20] You don't need to, and besides, when [3:22] Shanghai people buy groceries... [3:24] >> They really just grab such a small [3:26] handful, you don't see that in the North [3:28] . Isn't that actually all you need to [3:30] eat? I think this fits today's lifestyle [3:32] perfectly; it's eco-friendly. [3:34] >> In Shanghai, many things don't keep well [3:36] because it's hot and humid. [3:37] >> So what is it? I've lived in the North; [3:40] in autumn, there were no produce markets [3:41] in the winter, Beijing didn't have them [3:43] either, they just wouldn't. [3:44] >> Right. [3:45] >> So the vegetables were rationed. Homes [3:48] would have hundreds of pounds of Chinese [3:49] cabbage, and work units would distribute [3:51] cabbage and potatoes to get through the [3:52] winter. But in Shanghai, because the [3:55] climate is mild, there are small produce [3:57] markets right next door, sometimes even [4:00] right in the storefronts. They just buy [4:03] a little bit to take home and cook. Back [4:05] when there were no refrigerators at home [4:08] , they would buy things in very small [4:10] amounts to ensure everything was fresh. [4:12] They had the conditions for it. [4:14] >> Go observe—do you think Shanghai people [4:17] really have smaller appetites and eat [4:19] less? [4:19] >> Appetite, appetite. [4:21] >> Maybe the portions are a bit smaller. [4:24] They are definitely smaller, but it's [4:26] that Shanghai serves less food, not that [4:28] people have small appetites. I remember [4:30] going to Shanghai years ago. [4:32] >> There’s a traditional Chinese dish found [4:34] in both the North and the South: ribbon [4:35] fish. Braised ribbon fish. [4:37] >> Because in our younger days, you could [4:39] only get ribbon fish or yellow croaker [4:41] in all of China; nobody knew what other [4:44] types of fish were. When Northerners [4:46] serve ribbon fish, it usually has to be [4:48] cut. Two inches is considered skimpy; [4:50] they usually cut them into three-inch [4:51] segments and serve them up. Whether it's [4:53] braised or deep-fried, in Shanghai, they [4:55] cut it diagonally. [4:56] >> Right, when we were kids, we always [4:58] >> cut it diagonally. The first time I saw [5:01] it cut diagonally, I felt a bit insulted [5:04] . I asked them for a piece, they cut it [5:06] diagonally, and my mind clicked—it's cut [5:09] that way just to look bigger, but there [5:11] isn't actually much there. [5:13] >> They cut it diagonally, which is special [5:16] , because when we eat beltfish, you take [5:18] this big chunk and use your teeth to [5:21] strip off the top dorsal fin—that fin is [5:23] the prickliest part—but if you cut it [5:26] diagonally, the bones don't break as [5:28] much. If you cut it straight, [5:30] >> the fish bones stay intact; if you cut [5:32] it diagonally, the meat ends up full of [5:34] broken bits of bone, and you can't eat [5:36] it without getting frustrated. I think [5:39] your analysis of this whole situation is [5:42] very Shanghainese. [5:43] >> Living in Shanghai, [5:45] >> you're still a Shanghainese person at [5:48] heart, born and raised. [5:49] >> No one else would ponder this stuff. [5:51] >> I've always wondered about it, why they [5:53] cut it diagonally—every culture must [5:55] have a reason; cutting it diagonally [5:57] just makes it look like more. [5:58] >> You see, there are many things like that [6:00] . This is the first time I've heard [6:02] someone explain it so interestingly. [6:03] >> Things we’ve taken for granted are being [6:05] viewed by them from an entirely [6:07] different angle. Take the other day, for [6:08] example, I was talking to someone from [6:10] the 90s who moved from Guangdong to [6:11] Shanghai—there are so many people like [6:13] that in Shanghai now— [6:14] >> and they mentioned a detail that really [6:16] shocked me. I never even thought about [6:18] it; I asked them about riding the subway [6:20] , and they said when you reach your stop [6:21] , people behind you will tap you and ask [6:23] , "Are you getting off? If you're not [6:24] getting off, let's swap spots, or just [6:26] let me pass." They were genuinely [6:28] surprised by this sense of order among [6:29] Shanghainese people. It’s just... [6:32] >> Hidden underneath is something called [6:34] efficiency. [6:34] >> I want to say they plan ahead and [6:36] anticipate high efficiency; they think [6:38] it through very clearly. [6:39] >> I said that when I was a kid we didn't [6:41] have subways, but we took buses and it [6:42] was always like this; everyone would [6:43] naturally, before reaching the stop, [6:44] >> start swapping positions. [6:46] >> Positions would all be switched—exactly [6:48] , isn't that just a natural thing to do [6:50] ? [6:51] >> When Shanghai first started to develop, [6:54] I read in a document that before the [6:56] concessions were established, the old [6:58] city of Shanghai lacked a real concept [7:01] of a modern city. [7:06] On rainy days, it was extremely muddy, [7:09] and wealthy people there could only get [7:11] around by sedan chair or horse-drawn [7:14] carriage. [7:17] But when they stepped outside into the [7:19] concessions—like the Guangdong Road, the [7:22] French Concession roads, or the numbered [7:24] roads—they were stunned. [7:26] These were development zones where [7:29] Western influence had arrived, with such [7:32] smooth, paved streets. They wondered how [7:35] these carriages could have springs and [7:37] move so easily. [7:39] As for the houses, along these newly [7:41] developed roads, they began building [7:44] that Sino-Western style known as [7:46] Shikumen. [7:48] Everything was better than the old city [7:51] , creating a sharp contrast. [7:54] As Mr. Zhu Xing once said, the moment [7:56] you board a train from Nanjing and start [7:59] hearing Shanghainese talk, you hear [8:02] their favorite catchphrase: "Is it worth [8:05] it or not?" [8:05] >> Hearing that sound, he would say, " [8:07] Shanghai is almost here." [8:09] >> That’s exactly what it means. In this [8:12] constant process of comparison, the [8:14] people of Shanghai are particularly [8:16] reserved on the outside, but internally [8:18] , they are always calculating. [8:20] >> Take our Professor Xu Zidong, for [8:22] example; if you spend a few days with [8:24] him, the phrase you hear most often is " [8:26] not worth it, not worth it, not worth it [8:27] ." [8:28] >> Exactly. [8:29] >> That’s how it is. [8:31] >> So, it got me thinking the other day [8:33] that in Chinese architecture, from the [8:36] past to the present, Shanghai is [8:38] probably the only place where such a " [8:41] monster" appeared. [8:43] You see, Beijing has its courtyards, [8:45] which have stayed the same, but Shanghai [8:48] produced the Shikumen. [8:50] >> These Shikumen—you could say they are [8:52] neither purely Chinese nor Western. They [8:54] have Chinese characteristics, yet they [8:57] incorporate many Western decorative [8:59] motifs, and a massive number of them [9:01] were built back in the 1920s and 30s. [9:05] This holds a certain representative [9:07] significance; Shanghai grew into this [9:10] unique urban form, responding to modern [9:12] Western culture by creating this [9:14] architectural hybrid. [9:18] They are very efficient with space— [9:20] Shikumen are great at utilizing space. I [9:23] know this because I recently stayed in a [9:25] hotel that was converted from a Shikumen [9:27] . You walk into a tiny courtyard, then [9:29] it’s stacked up for three floors; the [9:31] spaces underneath are all very small, [9:33] but the space is utilized remarkably [9:35] well. Last time I filmed this show, I [9:38] went to one of those Shikumen houses. [9:40] They’re now home to many families, not [9:42] the wealthy ones, but many families [9:44] living together. I saw it with my own [9:46] eyes—wow, rows and rows of water meters [9:49] , one for every single room. Even where [9:52] there used to be a shared sink, now [9:54] every room has its own meter. It really [9:57] keeps everyone from infringing on each [9:59] other. [10:00] >> Hey, if it were us, I reckon we’d end up [10:03] fighting. [10:03] >> So, that’s just how Shanghai people have [10:06] become. [10:06] >> I think people in Shanghai calculate [10:07] everything very clearly. [10:09] >> Right, their sense of boundaries is [10:10] incredibly strong. [10:11] >> It’s like, I won’t take advantage of you [10:13] , and you don’t take advantage of me. [10:15] Growing up, of all the things my parents [10:17] —my mom—taught me, I don’t remember much [10:20] else, but I remember this one thing she [10:22] kept repeating. If you borrow money, you [10:24] must return it within 24 hours, but when [10:26] lending to others, lend to those in a [10:28] rush, not to the poor. If someone needs [10:30] money urgently, you can lend it to them [10:32] , but if they’re just poor and have no [10:34] money, you’d better not. Often, as you [10:36] just mentioned, for the working class in [10:39] Shanghai, when they talk about " [10:41] outsiders," you have to look at it [10:43] dialectically. [10:45] On one hand, there might be some [10:47] discrimination, but on the other, they [10:49] see them as what we call in Beijing " [10:51] unreliable," because they have their own [10:54] standards. [10:54] >> They just think you’re not careful or [10:57] not following the rules. I’m a very [10:59] rough Northerner, and I remember when I [11:02] was young, I spent a few days with [11:04] someone from Shanghai. [11:06] You know, by the end, I felt like a [11:09] child. It was like I couldn’t even walk [11:12] straight. They really are, as you’d say [11:14] , "sharp and clear-headed." They plan [11:16] everything out well in advance. "Oh, [11:18] that’s not right, that’s not right," [11:20] they’d say, and I’d just stand there, [11:21] clueless. Like, "Oh, why would you buy [11:23] it here?" And you think about it, [11:25] everything they say is right. But how [11:27] can their brains work like that all day [11:29] ? That’s why I felt like a toddler who [11:31] couldn’t walk properly; I just had that [11:33] kind of feeling. It’s the charm of [11:34] culture, because China is a vast country [11:36] , the languages are diverse, and there [11:38] are differences in the culture of every [11:40] region. [11:40] >> When talking about people from a certain [11:43] region, suggesting they have [11:44] commonalities isn't necessarily [11:46] scientific; it’s not a scientific [11:48] concept to begin with. But no one can [11:51] deny that people from the same land [11:53] share a unique vibe. So, you see, even [11:56] if you don't talk about the past, it’s [11:58] all connected. I feel like my friends, [12:01] including Master Ma, are always saying [12:03] how great Shanghai is, and many want to [12:06] visit on weekends. But my own feeling— [12:08] so I’d like to ask Professor Jin and Yi [12:11] Jun—is that Shanghai today gives me the [12:13] impression that... [12:15] >> I really want to connect with this city [12:18] . You know what I mean? But at the same [12:20] time, I feel I have no real connection [12:23] to it. When I look at this city, I [12:25] really like it. The chances of finding a [12:28] good restaurant here are higher than in [12:30] Beijing, you know? The food is delicious [12:33] , there are skyscrapers, a local civic [12:35] life, the French Concession, and walking [12:38] paths. I like it so much that I even [12:40] think about living here, but then... [12:43] >> For some reason, you feel a sense of [12:46] coldness, a sense of being kept out. [12:49] >> Is it just as you said? Every [12:51] Shanghainese person I meet seems to show [12:53] a kind of distant politeness. Or perhaps [12:56] it's the sense of boundaries you [12:58] mentioned. In theory, that's a good [13:00] thing, right? But you always get the [13:01] feeling that if you actually lived here [13:03] , you might feel a bit lonely. That's [13:05] why I wonder about all the outsiders now [13:07] . [13:08] >> Yeah. [13:09] >> When they come to Shanghai, do they have [13:11] this kind of feeling? [13:12] >> They might when they first arrive, but [13:14] after a long time, once you get used to [13:16] it, you won't be so sensitive. [13:20] It’s exactly the issue we just mentioned [13:22] ; most people in Shanghai just mind [13:24] their own business. [13:27] >> It’s just as we said, because of the [13:30] abnormal past, like the Shikumen housing [13:33] we mentioned. [13:34] >> Why were they so crowded? Originally, [13:37] each house was meant for one family, but [13:38] after the August 13th incident, a [13:40] massive number of people fled into the [13:42] concessions. People from all over the [13:44] country ran to the concessions; it was [13:46] an "island of safety." So, the landlords [13:48] and subletters started renting out every [13:51] available space. This kind of crowding [13:53] forced people to try their best to keep [13:56] to themselves. Or, as Zhou Yijun said, [13:59] we don't interfere with each other. But [14:01] the problem is that now, when you go to [14:04] Shanghai, I suspect you won't really run [14:06] into only Shanghainese people. [14:08] >> Everyone speaks Mandarin now; it’s hard [14:11] to tell where anyone is from, unlike [14:13] before. I remember back in the early [14:15] days—I was just chatting with Professor [14:17] Jin—I asked if the Shanghai Writers ' [14:19] Association was still at 675 Julu Road? [14:21] I remember it so clearly, because the [14:23] first time I went to Shanghai, I had to [14:26] go to 675 Julu Road, and that road is [14:28] incredibly long. Something about [14:30] Shanghai that’s really daunting is how [14:32] long the roads are. Once you get on one [14:33] , you’re still a long way from the [14:35] address. You’ll be walking for quite a [14:37] while. In Beijing, no matter how long a [14:39] hutong is, you won’t spend more than ten [14:41] minutes on it, but in Shanghai, you [14:43] could walk until your feet ache and [14:45] still not be there. So, the first time I [14:47] went to Shanghai, the very first issue I [14:50] faced was the language barrier. Back in [14:53] the early 80s, many elderly Shanghainese [14:56] couldn't speak Mandarin at all. They’d [14:58] struggle to speak to you, and you still [15:00] couldn't understand a word. When taxis [15:02] first appeared, the drivers were always [15:04] locals—that was true in Beijing and [15:06] Shanghai alike—it was only later that [15:08] people from outside came to do this [15:10] grueling work. It used to be a lucrative [15:12] job, so the first time I took a taxi in [15:15] Shanghai, I talked to the driver. I [15:17] thought, there's no way he can't [15:19] understand me, right? If I just speak my [15:22] Mandarin a bit more slowly, surely that [15:25] would work? I said, "Turn right," but [15:28] the driver said, "Zuo wan," which I [15:30] misheard as "turn left." I said, "Look, [15:33] you say turn left?" [15:35] >> Doesn't it sound like "turn left" to you [15:37] ? [15:37] >> I said, "Turn right, did you understand [15:39] ?" He just said, "Zuo." I thought he was [15:41] giving me a hard time. I asked, "What [15:43] are you trying to do?" Then he explained [15:45] —Shanghai people are quite interesting; [15:47] they don't say "left turn" or "right [15:48] turn," they say "big turn" and "small [15:50] turn." [15:50] >> Shanghai people also don't really refer [15:52] to heading north or south on the roads, [15:53] have you noticed? [15:54] >> Why is that? [15:55] >> So, the left turn is called...how do you [15:58] say, big turn, small... [15:59] >> Can you pronounce the word "big"? [16:01] >> Left is big. Left is big, right is small [16:04] . [16:04] >> Hmm. [16:05] >> Then he said "xiao"(small), so I... " [16:07] >> Small turn," meaning a smaller movement [16:09] , you turn right. I said "turn right," [16:11] and he was actually repeating "turn [16:12] right" after me. [16:13] >> Oh. [16:14] >> But I heard it as... "Zuo wan"(last [16:16] night/turn left). [16:17] >> I once heard about a Shanghainese person [16:19] who went to Hong Kong and tried to say " [16:21] turn right" in Cantonese, but it came [16:23] out sounding like "there's a ghost." [16:25] >> I want to say, regarding the language [16:27] issue, it actually hits home for me. Now [16:29] , when I return to Shanghai, I can [16:31] barely even speak Shanghainese in the [16:33] city center. [16:34] >> Why? [16:35] >> First, when you start speaking to anyone [16:36] , you aren't sure if they'll understand [16:38] you or what their response will be. You [16:40] don't know. If you go to any shop, I'll [16:43] definitely speak Mandarin first. [16:45] >> You mean Shanghai isn't just [16:47] experiencing a sense of loss, but that [16:49] the objective reality is that we've been [16:51] pushing Mandarin education for over four [16:53] generations. Ever since the Reform and [16:55] Opening-up, Mandarin has become the [16:57] mainstream across the whole country. [16:59] >> And as a result, this city has [17:01] effectively lost its personality. [17:02] >> Lost its personality in what way? For [17:04] instance, if you brought a blind person [17:06] into a city and they only heard Mandarin [17:08] everywhere, they wouldn't even know if [17:10] they had left home. If you arrived in [17:12] Guangdong, you'd expect to hear [17:13] Cantonese and know for sure you were in [17:15] Guangdong. But if everyone in Guangdong [17:17] just spoke Mandarin, the whole country [17:19] would be like the architecture today— [17:21] just lookalike high-rises—and the city's [17:23] unique character would be gone. Its [17:25] character. And now, even young people in [17:27] Shanghai, those born in the 80s and 90s [17:29] , speak Mandarin to each other. Moreover [17:31] , they can't even get the Shanghai [17:33] dialect pronunciations right. [17:34] >> Their language has changed, but do you [17:36] think their... [17:37] >> Personality has changed? [17:39] >> They will lose a lot. [17:40] >> It will change along with the language. [17:42] >> Right, right, it will change according [17:44] to the language. [17:44] >> That's why I've always been calling for [17:46] the protection of our local dialects. [17:48] Shanghainese is a very excellent dialect [17:50] system, because all dialects aren't just [17:52] about intonation and tone. People from [17:55] the North mistakenly think a dialect is [17:57] just an accent; it's not. Take the Hebei [17:59] dialect, for example; most Beijingers [18:01] can understand it. It’s just a different [18:03] accent, but a truly good dialect lies in [18:05] its vocabulary. In my understanding of [18:07] dialects, Shanghainese is completely [18:09] different from others when it comes to [18:11] vocabulary. [18:12] >> Shanghainese people don't use the word [18:14] for "wallet," they call it "pi-jia-zi." [18:16] They don't say "Renminbi" or "money," [18:18] they use the term "chao-piao." They [18:20] always... [18:21] >> It used to be called "dong-di-tong-tong [18:23] ." [18:23] >> That's true too. When I was a kid, we [18:25] didn't even have wallets, we just shoved [18:27] money in our pockets, no "pi-jia-zi." [18:28] >> No, no, it's like this: it's in this [18:30] linguistic choice that its individuality [18:33] exists. Since I work with words, I [18:35] really care about this. I'm always [18:38] calling for the protection of dialects, [18:40] but there's a tragedy—take Shanghainese [18:42] , for example; it’s basically dying out [18:44] because...Because now, those born in the [18:46] 80s, 90s, and 00s can at best understand [18:49] it but can't speak it. They can [18:51] understand but not speak. By the next [18:53] generation, it will be gone. [18:55] >> Because... [18:56] >> It's just that simple. [18:57] >> Because, because back in the 90s, when [19:00] the real estate market started, many [19:02] wealthy people from other provinces came [19:04] to Shanghai to buy property, often [19:06] buying dozens of units at a time. Also, [19:08] a large number of officials from other [19:11] regions were transferred to Shanghai for [19:13] work as the city expanded. [19:16] After these two groups arrived in [19:18] Shanghai, I believe they actually played [19:21] a role in making Shanghai dialect [19:23] unnecessary because they didn't learn it [19:25] . [19:27] >> Because schools now... [19:29] >> Demand Mandarin. If you go anywhere, [19:32] into any executive office building, [19:34] you'll hear Mandarin, because so many [19:37] people from out of town are working [19:39] there. And from their perspective, it’s [19:41] not unfair, because everyone has been [19:44] educated in Mandarin. Why should I have [19:46] to speak your local dialect just because [19:49] I came here? But in the past, back in [19:51] the 20s and 30s, if you went to any city [19:54] in the country to do business, you had [19:56] to learn the local dialect. That was the [19:59] rule. " [20:00] >> When in Rome, do as the Romans do." But [20:02] now, due to the situation I mentioned, [20:05] in the past you wouldn't have so many [20:07] intellectuals or so many business owners [20:09] arriving all at once; they used to [20:11] trickle in slowly across various [20:13] industries, bringing different accents. [20:16] Local Shanghai dialect, [20:17] Shandong-Shanghai dialect, [20:19] Suzhou-Shanghai, Ningbo-Shanghai—they [20:21] all had different accents. Other cities [20:23] were the same. [20:24] >> It's just the way things have gone. I [20:27] think it’s very difficult to appeal for [20:29] this now. It’s not just here; it’s a [20:32] global issue. Cities all over the world [20:34] are becoming more and more alike. I [20:36] spent seven years in Guangzhou 20 years [20:39] ago, and back then, only our Guangdong [20:41] Radio compound spoke Mandarin. [20:43] >> That was the only place, but once you [20:45] stepped out, it was all Cantonese. But [20:47] today, even Guangzhou is the same. [20:49] >> Everyone speaks it. [20:50] >> I, personally, as a Shanghainese, have [20:52] an emotional attachment to the Shanghai [20:54] dialect, so of course, I feel a sense of [20:56] loss, and it’s upsetting. But on the [20:58] other hand, I really think sometimes we [21:00] need to have a more tolerant and [21:02] inclusive mindset, because why? You [21:04] really can't stop the flow of population [21:07] . Now, when I go back to Shanghai, aside [21:09] from the friends I grew up with, most of [21:11] my friends are not from Shanghai. Some [21:13] of my relatives always talk about [21:14] wanting to drive the outsiders out. I [21:16] tell them, if you drive them out, I [21:18] won't have any friends left in Shanghai [21:19] ; my friends are all from out of town, [21:21] right? [21:21] >> Some of my friends say I live in the [21:23] city center, but everyone I’ve met this [21:25] past month isn’t from Shanghai. [21:26] >> Back when I was in college, I brought a [21:28] friend from the Northeast back to [21:30] Shanghai, and he could basically [21:32] understand Shanghainese within a week. [21:34] Because he kept hearing it all the time [21:35] , but now, I know friends who have lived [21:37] there for years and still don't [21:39] understand it, because they never come [21:40] into contact with the dialect. Right, mm [21:43] . [21:44] >> The only exception is the migrant [21:46] workers doing the most basic jobs in the [21:49] vegetable markets. [21:51] Those vegetable sellers from Shandong [21:53] and Anhui—after a few years, they speak [21:56] such authentic Shanghainese. [21:57] >> They deal with local folks every single [22:00] day, but... [22:01] >> Those delivery drivers and the people [22:04] helping families look after their [22:06] children, none of them are locals. [22:08] >> In them, I see how our previous [22:10] generation of Shanghainese entered this [22:12] city; that’s exactly how they came in. [22:14] >> Mhm, we are all immigrants ourselves, [22:16] really. [22:16] >> That’s right, everyone just flowed in [22:18] from the outside. So, as two [22:20] Shanghainese people, can you tell us: is [22:22] it really that difficult for outsiders [22:24] to integrate with the locals in Shanghai [22:26] ? Are Shanghainese people exclusionary? [22:28] There’s no psychological barrier to [22:30] integration; it’s actually become very [22:31] easy, getting easier all the time. It’s [22:33] easier now because we no longer have [22:35] that 20-year period of closed household [22:38] registration, where outsiders couldn't [22:40] enter and those inside couldn't leave. [22:43] After the reforms, masses of people came [22:45] in, which is the original history of [22:48] Shanghai—it started as just a small [22:50] county town. I recently saw a source [22:53] saying that while it opened up in 1843, [22:56] back in 1836, two British ships arrived [22:59] in Guangdong and were driven away. These [23:02] two ships had no other choice, so they [23:04] heard word of mouth and took a chance, [23:06] arriving at the Shiliupu Wharf in [23:08] Shanghai. As soon as they docked at [23:10] Shiliupu, the people from the old walled [23:12] city all swarmed up, looking around, [23:14] asking questions, and trying to strike [23:16] up conversations, asking if they wanted [23:18] to rent a house or what they needed. The [23:20] British said they had never seen people [23:22] in this region behave like that. How did [23:24] they know how to do business? [23:26] >> Because the people in this old city, in [23:28] this place called Shanghai, had [23:30] themselves come from elsewhere back then [23:32] . They didn't have any deep-rooted local [23:34] cultural ties holding them back. They [23:36] had all gathered in this place by the [23:38] sea and river, so when outsiders arrived [23:41] , they could all connect with them. [23:43] >> Listening to this, it sounds a bit like [23:46] the Netherlands. [23:47] >> And so, they say they sold everything [23:49] they had on those two ships. After [23:52] selling, they were immediately [23:53] encouraged to buy silk and all kinds of [23:56] textiles; in the end, it was a huge [23:58] windfall, meaning the money was all [24:01] earned by the Shanghainese. [24:03] >> And so, when they left, they said, " [24:05] This place is interesting, we must [24:07] remember this place." And the kids will [24:09] come back, [24:10] >> So have you noticed that if a place [24:12] doesn't have any true indigenous people [24:14] in the absolute sense, and everyone is [24:16] from all over, you'll find that the [24:18] first commercial trading language to [24:21] emerge is universally understood? Look [24:23] at the Netherlands, for instance; if [24:25] everyone is from elsewhere, the one [24:27] thing we can rely on here is trade. And [24:30] I also think Mr. Jin is quite creative [24:32] with language; he wrote a book back then [24:35] called "The Sing-song Girls of Shanghai [24:37] ." [24:38] >> It was written by Han Bangqing in Suzhou [24:40] dialect, which we couldn't understand, [24:42] but later Eileen Chang felt it was a [24:44] great novelistic tradition, so she [24:46] translated it into something we could [24:48] understand. [24:49] >> And so, Mr. Jin wrote this work, and his [24:51] novel left behind many famous terms; one [24:53] that I find very profound is "bu xiang" [24:55] (not saying a word). How do you say that [24:57] in Shanghainese? [24:58] >> What does it sound like in Shanghainese [25:00] ? " [25:00] >> Bu xiang." [25:01] >> Just silently not saying a word. [25:04] >> To be honest, that is why you might like [25:06] Shanghainese people, but it feels hard [25:08] to connect with them deeply, because [25:11] there's always a subtext you can never [25:13] figure out. [25:14] How would you explain that? [25:16] >> Why is that the case? Well, if you use [25:19] Shanghainese, you see, when you write in [25:21] your mind, you usually think in Mandarin [25:23] ; your writing language is your thinking [25:25] language. So, generally, when you sit [25:27] down to write, you are thinking in [25:29] Mandarin. But if you write using [25:31] Shanghainese, you are narrating an event [25:33] with Shanghainese thinking. The term " [25:35] bu xiang" will definitely appear in it. [25:37] Because, for example, if Zhang San goes [25:40] to see a leader, when we Shanghainese [25:42] narrate an event, the term "bu xiang" [25:44] implies a kind of ellipsis. For example [25:46] , everyone already knows about a certain [25:48] matter, and then I go to see the leader [25:49] , and the leader says nothing; he just [25:51] says "the leader is' bu xiang '." The [25:52] leader saying nothing actually makes [25:54] everyone understand that there are [25:55] various possibilities. But since the [25:57] leader didn't say a single word, that [25:59] atmosphere is immediately conveyed to [26:01] everyone. Wow, it turns out there's no [26:03] result, and perhaps something might even [26:05] go wrong, or whatever. So those two [26:07] words, "bu xiang," are something [26:08] Shanghainese people probably say [26:10] countless times every single day. This [26:12] is very interesting; people like the [26:14] Beijing "chatters" must be very familiar [26:16] with this. Sometimes, you don't even [26:18] need a subtext; sometimes it's even [26:19] forcing the other person, "You want me [26:21] to talk, I'll talk, right?""It all has [26:23] to be said. You see, with Shanghai [26:26] people, often you can't tell what [26:28] they're thinking, but they'll just... [26:30] they won't say anything. [26:31] >> Let me give you a simple example. [26:34] I was just telling Professor Ma, when I [26:37] was young and went to the Northeast, [26:39] those Shanghai girls who arrived in the [26:42] North—Beijing, Qiqihar, Harbin—everyone [26:45] saw how pretty the Shanghai girls were. [26:48] Big competition to date them. And at [26:51] that moment, you could describe how, for [26:53] instance, the Shanghai boys just stood [26:55] on the sidelines, saying nothing. [26:57] >> Just nothing. It’s not that they were [27:00] stupid or mute; they just stood there, [27:02] keeping it all inside, not knowing how [27:04] to act, saying nothing. [27:05] >> Because the young men from the North [27:07] were very proactive in their pursuit. [27:09] Exactly. [27:10] >> But the young men from Shanghai were [27:12] like onlookers—well, not exactly [27:14] onlookers—they just wouldn't act, and [27:15] you never knew what they were thinking. [27:17] >> Others would win a girl over in two [27:19] hours, while you'd just stand there. [27:21] >> Doesn't that put you at a disadvantage? [27:23] >> A huge disadvantage. [27:24] >> On the dating battlefield, aren't you [27:26] essentially...nothing? [27:26] >> No, it's not that. It's that they won't [27:29] act, and maybe they're even finding it [27:30] amusing. [27:31] >> Right. [27:32] >> Yes, exactly. [27:33] >> So, back when we, the Shanghai educated [27:35] youth, were in the Northeast, what was [27:37] the biggest source of loss for me? Take [27:39] the Harbin youths, for example; even the [27:41] lowest-ranking person in their group [27:43] could be scolded by anyone among them. [27:46] >> Mm. [27:47] >> They could beat or scold them at will. [27:50] But, you Shanghai people couldn't touch [27:52] them. If any of you Shanghai people [27:54] touched them, a whole group would swarm [27:57] you. [27:57] >> But for us Shanghai people, even if one [28:00] of us was in trouble...There was no [28:02] sense of collective solidarity; if you [28:04] were being beaten, we wouldn't intervene [28:06] . [28:07] >> We just wouldn't say anything. Because, [28:09] as I said, once Shanghai opened up, it [28:12] placed the burden of survival directly [28:14] onto the individual. Beyond yourself, [28:17] nothing else matters—why should I care [28:20] what you do? It's none of my business, [28:22] it has nothing to do with me. [28:23] >> It's like in truly developed countries, [28:25] where neighbors are like strangers, each [28:27] minding their own business. [28:28] >> There is no... [28:30] >> No sense of collective behavior. Because [28:32] the Harbin youths were incredibly [28:34] tight-knit; if you bullied one of them, [28:35] a whole gang would come up to fight you [28:37] . When I was in college, there were all [28:39] sorts of regional associations, but [28:40] Shanghai people could never seem to [28:42] start one. It’s simply that they have an [28:44] individualistic concept. You say" not [28:46] wanting to, "but it’s actually a matter [28:49] of efficiency. If I say something, a [28:51] situation might become more complicated [28:53] , or I’m not sure what the result will [28:55] be, so I just don't want to. Not wanting [28:57] to is basically a diplomatic way of [28:59] saying" no, "or rather, avoiding the [29:00] issue. [29:00] >> But I think, I think after you finish [29:02] speaking... [29:03] >> There’s another word I use when dealing [29:04] with foreigners; they always say—I don't [29:06] know if it's just Shanghainese or all [29:08] Chinese—I always say" Mm. " [29:09] >> They ask when I say" Mm, "" Does your' [29:11] Mm 'mean' yes 'or' no '? " [29:13] >> I say I just mean" Mm. " [29:15] >> It just means I’m aware of the matter. I [29:17] think there should be a cultural [29:19] understanding between us; that's just [29:22] Chinese culture. [29:24] For instance, if Wentao says," Are you [29:26] coming to our get-together on the 15th [29:29] of next month? "and you go" Mm, "it [29:32] doesn't mean you're going. [29:34] >> Exactly. [29:35] >> Its meaning is very complex; that’s the [29:37] essence of Chinese culture. [29:38] >> It’s like sending a smiley face on [29:40] WeChat; you never know what it really [29:41] means. Anyway, since we have to talk [29:43] about novels and dialects... [29:45] Shanghainese doesn't have an advantage [29:47] as a dialect; you can't write novels in [29:49] Shanghainese. [29:50] >> You really can't; it's certainly [29:52] impossible. I am a professional editor, [29:54] and I’ve actually discussed which [29:56] dialects are advantageous for writing [29:58] novels. There are four major dialect [29:59] regions in China that are great for [30:01] novels: first, the Beijing dialect [30:03] region, followed by northern Shaanxi, [30:05] Hunan, and Sichuan. When those dialects [30:07] are written on paper, you can understand [30:08] them. [30:09] >> They can be textualized. But [30:11] Shanghainese—take the simplest example. [30:14] When I go to Shanghai and they talk [30:16] about eating" big crabs, "they say" du [30:18] za ha. " [30:18] >> I say," Write those three characters [30:20] down for me, "and once written, it's [30:22] just" big crab. " [30:22] >> Right. [30:23] >> It’s written as" big crab, "but they say [30:26] " du za ha, "you see... [30:28] >> Same characters, different [30:30] pronunciations? [30:31] >> That doesn't work. The sound is lost in [30:33] the written text, and all the rhythm and [30:36] nuance are gone. What Mr. Ma is saying— [30:38] I understand—is that, much like [30:40] Cantonese, Shanghainese contains many [30:42] terms that aren't common in writing. You [30:44] could show the written word to a [30:45] Shanghainese person, and they wouldn't [30:47] even know what you mean. That’s one [30:49] point. [30:49] >> Regarding the" du za ha "thing mentioned [30:51] earlier, the character" da "(big)... [30:53] >> In Shanghainese, sometimes it’s [30:55] pronounced" da, "and sometimes it’s [30:56] something else. [30:57] >> For example, there used to be a phrase [30:59] to test if someone could speak the [31:01] dialect or if they were truly from [31:03] Shanghai:" Go to the big road to eat big [31:06] food. "Mm. [31:07] >> That is, the big road—which is Nanjing [31:10] Road—and eating" big food, "which refers [31:13] to Western cuisine. [31:15] >> It depends on how you pronounce that" [31:18] big "character. [31:20] >> The phrase is meant to be said as" Go to [31:22] the' du 'road to eat' da 'food, "making [31:25] sure to use the" da "sound. [31:27] >> You can't say" du. "" [31:29] >> Du "and" da "—because in some Northern [31:31] dialects, a single character might have [31:34] two pronunciations in Shanghainese. See [31:36] ," du "road," da "food—you see, this" da [31:38] food "must be emphasized. So, for [31:40] Shanghai dialect—you know, maybe last [31:42] year or the year before, there was [31:44] something really interesting on a public [31:46] account, someone wrote a funny story in [31:48] Shanghainese, and everyone in our office [31:50] was passing it around, but no one could [31:52] understand it. Then I asked them," What [31:54] are you reading? "They said," Oh, it's [31:57] so funny. "They said you could roughly [31:59] guess what the story was about, but a [32:01] large portion of the vocabulary and [32:03] language was incomprehensible, yet they [32:05] could still feel the, the, the vibe of [32:06] the Shanghai dialect. [32:07] >> Shanghainese and Cantonese; the biggest [32:09] feature of Cantonese is that when you [32:11] look at a sign, every character has a [32:13] mouth radical, but you have no idea what [32:15] the character is. [32:16] >> So, for the book" Blossoms, "as long as [32:19] there was an obscure character, I didn't [32:21] use it. [32:21] >> Right. [32:22] >> The whole book of" Blossoms, " [32:24] >> in the entire book of" Blossoms, "there [32:26] isn't a single" nong "(you) character. [32:28] >> Mm. [32:29] >> I converted them all, so if you are from [32:31] Shanghai, you can read it in [32:32] Shanghainese perfectly fine. [32:33] >> Mm. But actually, because of it—for [32:36] example, the character" nong "—it has [32:37] become a direct substitute. [32:39] >> Mm. [32:40] >> I was thinking that" nong "is a common [32:42] character; if you have a lot of" nong " [32:44] on every page, many readers definitely [32:46] wouldn't like it. [32:47] >> So I removed this local element, and [32:50] because I work as a literary editor, [32:52] >> literary editors are always looking at [32:54] things like," I don't understand how you [32:56] wrote this dialect, so I have to help [32:58] you change it, or have the author change [33:00] it. "So for this book, I revised it many [33:02] times to remove all those words that [33:04] represent Shanghai specifically. But the [33:06] sentence structure is still that of the [33:08] Shanghai dialect. [33:09] >> Mm. Right, it allows us to appreciate [33:12] the beauty of the Shanghai language; [33:13] this is a contribution to language [33:14] itself. [33:15] >> It’s like, it’s like a modified version [33:17] , not standard—why did I leave Shanghai [33:20] back then and head to Beijing for [33:22] university? Actually, there’s this [33:24] language issue—how did that play into it [33:26] ? The reason I thought Beijing was more [33:28] interesting than Shanghai back then was [33:30] because Beijing had no language barrier [33:32] . Anyone from out of town who speaks [33:34] Mandarin can get by in Beijing, which is [33:37] why it attracts so many eccentrics—all [33:39] kinds of different people. To this day, [33:41] if you’re in culture or something [33:43] similar, you’d still choose Beijing. If [33:45] you’re in other industries, you might [33:47] choose to go to Shanghai. Back then, [33:49] because people in Shanghai spoke [33:51] Shanghainese, there was this sense of [33:53] homogeneity; you felt you knew the city [33:56] well, and it was good, but for me, I [33:58] felt the North had more variety, more [34:01] changes, and was more colorful. [34:03] >> Now, looking back, the Shanghai language [34:05] might no longer be an obstacle. On one [34:07] hand, there’s a bit of a loss, but on [34:09] the other, when the language barrier [34:11] disappears, I’ve found all sorts of [34:13] interesting people arriving, and some [34:14] friends in Shanghai tell me," Do you [34:16] know? "" Shanghai is so great now, " [34:18] they say," It’s like New York. " [34:19] >> There really are people who say that. [34:21] >> Right, those born in the 80s or 90s have [34:24] no sense of loss at all, nor do they [34:26] feel that the Shanghai dialect is a [34:28] crucial part of their identity, because [34:31] they were all raised on Mandarin. [34:33] Perhaps the biggest aspect is, looking [34:35] back at history, the Shanghai of the [34:37] concession era was also considered a [34:40] cultural center. What I’m more [34:41] interested in is the character and the [34:44] human heart—for instance, when you talk [34:46] about young people pursuing girls back [34:48] then, what you said about the attitude [34:50] of Shanghai youth. [34:51] >> Because I thought of something, which is [34:54] the management of desire, the management [34:56] of… [34:56] >> Like, for example, how you handle your [34:58] own desires. [34:59] >> Like, take Beijing guys—they just go for [35:02] it, right? They dive right in, or [35:04] whatever, everyone’s like that. Ah, not [35:06] exactly, but for instance, like you just [35:08] said about the Shanghai youth waiting on [35:11] the sidelines, [35:12] >> Even so, they are still flesh and blood [35:14] , living and breathing. Is it that [35:16] Shanghai people are better at... [35:18] >> Restraint? [35:19] >> No, it’s not just about managing desire [35:22] ; for example, people like me often find [35:25] that we might lose control, you know? We [35:28] just have to satisfy our impulses when [35:30] we can't hold back, but looking at the [35:31] Shanghainese I've encountered, at least [35:33] those I've met, I rarely see them, how [35:35] should I put it, lose their composure. [35:37] Or insist that they must have something [35:39] . Take us, for example, Ma Ye. Sometimes [35:42] when we really like something, we'd turn [35:44] out all our pockets to get it. We just [35:46] have to have it, but you see... [35:48] >> You're right. So, why do people have [35:50] these desires? What I'm interested in is [35:52] , don't you have anything you [35:53] specifically crave? [35:54] >> Or perhaps, falling in love with a girl [35:57] and saying," I can give up my entire [35:58] family fortune just to be with you. " [36:00] But that doesn't seem to be the [36:02] Shanghainese way. [36:04] >> Yes, if you're talking about a specific [36:06] trait, a portion of Shanghainese people [36:09] are indeed like that. [36:11] I don't know why either; maybe it's [36:14] because of the history, like Hong Kong, [36:16] of being under a lease-based [36:18] administration. [36:19] >> Right. [36:20] >> They handle things in a calculated, [36:22] methodical way, which is why people say [36:24] Shanghainese make the best accountants. [36:26] That's exactly it. If you want to do [36:29] something idealistic, you have to be [36:31] able to broaden your horizons. In this [36:34] place, because it has always been [36:36] managed by strict rules... [36:39] ... [36:39] >> there will be things that spark a [36:41] powerful sense of drive within you. [36:44] That’s why Shanghainese marriages are [36:46] based on" negotiating terms. "It’s why [36:49] you only see that spectacle in Shanghai [36:50] , like at Fuxing Park where they hold [36:52] matchmaking sessions. It’s all very [36:54] practical, right? It’s about negotiating [36:57] terms, not just raw desire. We negotiate [36:59] conditions. [37:00] >> So, I have another prejudice—it’s [37:02] definitely a prejudice because our [37:03] social circles are quite limited—which [37:05] is... [37:05] >> My Shanghainese friends... [37:07] >> Hmm. [37:08] >> I have to admit that the partners they [37:10] find, whether it's a husband or a wife [37:12] ... [37:12] >> Hmm. ... [37:14] >> are all quite suitable, from a worldly [37:16] perspective, at least. [37:17] >> Well, you could actually check with the [37:18] Ministry of Civil Affairs to see if [37:20] Shanghai's divorce rate is lower than [37:21] others. [37:22] >> It wouldn't be. [37:23] >> It wouldn't be. [37:24] >> Really? Look at what he said about the [37:27] parents. In that park, this would be [37:30] impossible in Beijing. Parents hold up [37:32] placards with all sorts of standards— [37:35] university, height, appearance, weight, [37:38] income—it's all on there. [37:39] >> Beijing wouldn't do that. I don't think [37:42] that happens in Beijing. I... [37:45] >> It might happen, but not as boldly and [37:46] unapologetically as in Shanghai. So... [37:49] >> It's completely turned into a [37:50] marketplace. [37:51] >> Exactly, exactly. [37:52] >> It's just, well, a commodity. [37:54] >> Treating people like a commodity... [37:55] >> Let's just stop talking about that kind [37:57] of romance. [37:58] >> Exactly, I think this is a [37:59] characteristic of Shanghainese people. [38:06] Often, within certain urban classes, [38:08] people treat things in a way that [38:10] completely drains away all the charm and [38:13] romance of falling in love. [38:18] >> Even the relationships you write about [38:20] in your novels give me the impression— [38:22] to put it bluntly, from our Northern [38:24] perspective—that things are just [38:26] indecisive. It’s always" Oh, is this [38:28] good, or is it not? " [38:30] >> Just think about it, that lack of [38:31] directness...I have a friend from the [38:33] North who once asked," What are you [38:34] writing about? "" You're like that muggy [38:36] plum rain season in Shanghai; what are [38:38] all these people in there even doing? " [38:41] They scolded me at length. After [38:43] scolding me, they said they wanted to [38:45] move to Shanghai to live. They meant [38:47] that relationships in the North are very [38:50] straightforward: if it works, it works; [38:52] if it doesn't, we’re done. Right? We are [38:55] very sunny people, whereas you... [38:58] >> Perhaps it’s the climate or something [39:00] else, but how did it end up like this? [39:03] But what is the reality? You can be as" [39:06] sunny "as you want in the North, but [39:08] when you truly get to a certain point [39:10] and try to understand someone—say you [39:12] like a girl—if you don't happen to meet [39:15] someone who’s" take it or leave it, " [39:17] but instead someone who has other [39:19] complicated reasons for not being with [39:21] you right away...Even the two of you, in [39:23] the end, won't be able to see clearly [39:26] what’s actually going on. [39:28] Or, you see your colleagues in the [39:31] office, a man and a woman so close [39:33] during the day, but you have no idea [39:35] what they’re doing after work. If you [39:38] look at the city from this perspective, [39:40] that’s exactly what makes it good—the [39:41] fact that you can’t see things clearly [39:43] is what makes it interesting. [39:44] >> Ambiguity. [39:45] >> Exactly. [39:47] >> That’s why I feel that Wong Kar-wai’s [39:48] films capture exactly what we’re talking [39:50] about—that lack of directness, that [39:52] distinctively lingering, indecisive [39:53] flavor. Right. [39:54] >> Between a man and a woman, there are so [39:56] many calculations, so many different [39:58] ideas. I feel like, simply put, romance [40:01] is like a Chiung Yao novel—" Oh! Ah! Oh [40:04] ! "And then what? Or something like" [40:07] Wild at Heart. "But you see, I actually [40:10] think there’s a sense of restraint [40:12] within Shanghai’s culture. A kind of [40:15] self-control. Of course, there is desire [40:18] , but this desire is mixed with their [40:21] pragmatism and calculations. Often, it's [40:24] something they don't want to say, or [40:26] can't say. You see, I can't quite get a [40:29] handle on it, you know? It’s completely [40:32] low-key, the way the man and the woman [40:34] act. [40:34] >> Perhaps the mutual assessment is already [40:37] over. [40:37] >> So, it's not that Shanghainese people [40:39] are naturally smarter than those from [40:41] other places. Hmm. [40:43] >> Their living environment [40:45] >> Yes. [40:46] >> has gradually cultivated this [40:47] meticulousness, [40:48] >> and finding ways out of impossible [40:50] situations. [40:51] >> This kind of trait. [40:52] >> The city, right? I—I just heard Teacher [40:54] Jin speak, and it brought back so much. [40:56] Because the house we lived in when I was [40:58] a child was one of those old-style ones [40:59] ; at the very beginning, we shared a [41:00] kitchen, but later it was renovated— [41:02] I've seen you write about these houses [41:03] in your books—it became a layout where [41:05] families lived opposite each other, but [41:06] with a corridor in between, you know? [41:08] Like, if I wanted to go to our kitchen [41:10] or use the restroom, I had to walk [41:11] through that corridor—exactly, exactly. [41:13] >> You see each other, you see everyone. [41:16] >> I was young then, and sometimes the [41:18] neighbors would be there, and you have [41:20] to consider that the path was so narrow [41:22] . Would you bother changing clothes? [41:24] You’d definitely just put on pajamas and [41:26] head out, which is why Shanghainese [41:27] people can walk outside in their pajamas [41:28] . Sometimes I think it’s just something [41:30] that was forged that way. [41:31] >> Shanghainese women wearing pajamas in [41:33] public—sorry, I interrupted you, excuse [41:35] me. [41:36] >> It means that [41:37] >> they treat the entire alleyway as their [41:40] own home; within the bounds of the alley [41:42] , they know everyone is more or less the [41:45] same, in terms of hairpins or what [41:47] they're wearing. If they ever really had [41:49] to go to work, they would step outside [41:51] the alley, where, anyway, there wouldn't [41:53] be anyone from their own lane at their [41:55] workplace. [41:56] >> Oh, that is such an interesting concept [41:59] of space. You mean, they essentially [42:01] treat the public space of the alley as [42:04] their private space because they live so [42:06] closely, yet even within such a private [42:09] space, a husband and wife can still [42:11] manage their own affairs independently. [42:13] Yes. [42:14] >> Settling accounts, whether gaining or [42:16] losing, is all handled clearly to [42:18] maintain a balance. [42:19] >> You see, the distinction between private [42:21] and public here is hard to define; in [42:23] the end, it just becomes," Well, that's [42:25] great, thank you, keep looking and keep [42:27] observing, and you'll understand our [42:28] Shanghainese friends. "Yeah.