Robert Greene Links Modern Madness to Lost Awe, Urges Daily Slowness

罗伯特·格林将现代人的狂躁归因于敬畏感的丧失，呼吁践行日常的慢节奏 格林认为，商业平台割裂了人类的注意力，世俗文化剥离了灵性，这使得刻意的感官放慢与超然的敬畏感成为如同食物和居所一般对生存至关重要的生理必需品。 罗伯特·格林探讨了“崇高”作为一种心理与感官门槛的概念，它将置身陌生环境的不适与油然而生的敬畏狂喜融为一体。格林主要结合自己严重中风后的康复经历，解释了身体机能受限如何教会他在日常物件、肉体自愈以及刻意放慢节奏中探寻超然体验，而非寄望于异域旅行。在对话中，休伯曼与格林探讨了注意力的神经科学、自然界与濒死体验中弹性的时间维度，以及使用钢笔手写的创作修养。最终，格林主张，培养慢节奏、追寻童年时期的职业志向，以及在浪漫爱情中接纳彻底的情感脆弱，是对抗现代数字干扰和文化愤世嫉俗的关键力量。 罗伯特·格林将“崇高”的概念转化为具体的生活实践，并将其定义为一种演化与心理上的必需品，其根基在于脱离舒适区的不适感与对全新感知产生的敬畏感之间的张力。 (1:14) 在遭遇右脑严重中风导致左手部分瘫痪后，格林从分析式的抽离转向了身体共鸣，他在100多本笔记本上手写了整部书稿，以调动肢体摩擦与语言处理之间的深层神经连接。 (55:04) 人类的时间感知是富有弹性的而非僵死不变的：濒死体验以及刻意的跨物种观察（例如研究海洋生物或植物），能让个体逃离均质化的数字时空循环，体验非人类的时间尺度。 (41:30) 现代超然框架的崩塌加剧了文化上的迷茫与愤世嫉俗，但刻意放慢节奏、深度感官沉浸以及在爱中展现脆弱等自觉实践，可以成为重返超然意识的通道。 (107:16)

[3:49] Robert Greene: The sublime is a mix of pain and pleasure. The pain is it's outside my comfort zone. It's not what I'm familiar with, but the pleasure is the newness of it, the novelty, the excitement that it generates. [86:47] Robert Greene: The point of the book is that the need for a transcendent experiences which what the sublime is about in many ways is as important a need to humans as clothing as shelter as companionship as anything else. [99:05] Robert Greene: The act of loving a person and letting go of all your defenses is a form of rebellion against the ugliness in this world. [107:16] Robert Greene: Why do we have this need for belief in something higher than ourselves? It’s because we’re aware of our death. We’re aware of our mortality unlike any other animal that we know of. [111:17] Robert Greene: And I feel like the loss of religion, the loss of a sense of something transcended is what is partially making us insane right now. [41:30] Robert Greene: So our sense of time is not so logical and rational as we think it is and we can alter our perception of time literally by how we think and how we experience life. [103:31] Robert Greene: When you split it off and the—and women are the enemy, men are the enemy, you’re actually—you are the enemy of yourself. You are actually denying something deep about your own nature. [113:32] Robert Greene: Anybody can love your neighbor. What you need to love is the person who's not your neighbor. You need to love the person furthest away from your experience, the marginalized, the people that normally are hated.

[0:00] People would come to me and they would [0:01] say, "But Robert, I don't know what my [0:03] life's task is. I'm in my 20s. You write [0:06] about it. You write about Da Vinci. You [0:08] write about all these other people. I [0:09] have no idea." So, I had to go like, [0:12] "Why wouldn't they know it?" Because if [0:15] you think about your early childhood, [0:17] you had those moments. You knew that you [0:20] would love this. You love kicking a [0:22] ball. I had I love sports. But thinking [0:25] deeply about their experience, I came to [0:27] realize that first of all, they've lost [0:29] a deep connection to those childhood [0:32] experience, to those moments. They [0:33] forgotten about them. Why have they [0:36] forgotten about them? All these other [0:38] voices intervened. Their parents told [0:41] them what they should love, what they [0:42] shouldn't love. They had to learn math [0:44] and they didn't want to learn math. The [0:46] teachers told them what they were good [0:47] at, which kind of constrains your brain [0:50] into a certain career path. We have to [0:52] cut out all of those voices. We [0:54] literally had to go back into their [0:56] childhood to uncover those moments where [0:58] something sparked and they were excited. [1:01] Not because their parents told them, but [1:04] because it was them. Welcome to the [1:06] Hubberman Lab podcast, where we discuss [1:08] [music] science and science-based tools [1:10] for everyday life. [1:14] I'm Andrew Huberman, and I'm a professor [1:16] of neurobiology and opthalmology at [1:19] Stanford School of Medicine. My guest [1:20] today is Robert Green. Robert Green is a [1:23] renowned author of books such as The [1:25] Laws of Human Nature, The 48 Laws of [1:28] Power, and The Art of Seduction. Another [1:30] one of his books entitled Mastery [1:32] remains one of my all-time favorite [1:34] books and is one that I have recommended [1:36] to the students I've taught in classes, [1:38] in my laboratory, and to my friends and [1:39] family and acquaintances for years. But [1:42] with all of that said, I do believe that [1:44] the topics Robert discusses today are [1:46] the most important of all. And I don't [1:48] say that lightly. Today we talk about [1:50] the sublime and how to access the [1:52] sublime. For many of us, we hear the [1:54] sublime and it sounds abstract, but [1:57] today Robert explains that accessing the [1:59] sublime in your daily life is not only [2:01] possible but is truly the key to a great [2:04] life. One full of rich experiences in [2:06] your work, your relationships, your [2:08] relationship to yourself, to animals, [2:10] and even to the galaxies. And [2:12] importantly, today, Robert provides [2:14] tools and examples for how to access the [2:16] sublime in daily life. So, it's probably [2:18] obvious by now that I'm a huge fan of [2:20] Robert Green as the person and his books [2:22] and his teaching, including his [2:24] teachings in today's conversation. [2:25] You're in for a real gift with this one. [2:27] So, enjoy. Before we begin, I'd like to [2:30] emphasize that this podcast is separate [2:32] from my teaching and research roles at [2:33] Stanford. It is, however, part of my [2:35] desire and effort to bring zero cost to [2:37] consumer information about science and [2:39] science related tools to the general [2:40] public. In keeping with that theme, [2:42] today's episode does include sponsors. [2:45] And now for my discussion with Robert [2:47] Green. The Robert Green. Welcome back, [2:49] >> Andrew Huberman. Well, thank you. [2:52] >> I'm not shy about my adoration of your [2:55] book, Mastery. [2:56] >> Oh, thank you. Thank you. [2:57] >> Long before I had a podcast, I [2:59] recommended it to students in my courses [3:01] related to biology and neuroscience when [3:05] they would ask for book recommendations. [3:07] Um, I have a signed copy, thanks to you, [3:09] on my shelf. I return to it often and [3:12] I'm thrilled you've written this new [3:14] book, The Law of the Sublime. Um, I'm so [3:19] excited. I haven't read it yet because I [3:20] just got it from you today, but my [3:23] question is pretty straightforward. So, [3:25] if 48 Laws of Power was about how the [3:29] world is constructed and how to navigate [3:31] it and mastery was about mentorship and [3:34] how to realize our unique gifts and [3:36] potential. [3:37] >> Yeah. and laws of human nature. You've [3:40] written a lot of books, my friend, is [3:43] how we understand ourselves and others [3:45] in the context of general principles. [3:49] The law of the sublime is about it's [3:52] about experience. It's about how you [3:54] experience your day-to-day life. Not in [3:57] terms of success or power or dealing [4:01] with other people, but just your sense [4:03] of how you experience being alive and [4:07] how you kind of open yourself up to the [4:10] strangeness of this world that we [4:12] inhabit. So, I think a lot of our [4:15] experience now, how we process our our [4:18] thoughts and emotions is being kind of [4:21] programmed and controlled in ways we're [4:23] not aware of. Mh. [4:25] >> So I like to think of consciousness as [4:29] this kind of mental space that we [4:31] inhabit. I envision it in this book as a [4:34] kind of a circle, right? Although [4:36] there's really no limits to our [4:38] consciousness, but this is a circle in [4:41] which our thoughts kind of move around [4:43] within sort of certain limits, our [4:46] behavior, our emotions, what we think of [4:48] the world, what we think of as reality, [4:51] right? And within that circle, our [4:54] experience of life can be kind of [4:55] constricted. It can be kind of the [4:57] sameness. Everything seems sort of [4:59] familiar. Yes, you'll have kind of [5:02] experiences that might stand out, but [5:05] they're all still sort of similar. And [5:07] then you you go on a vacation, you climb [5:09] a mountain, you come back to your daily [5:11] routines, it doesn't really stick in [5:13] you, you know, like when Maslo describes [5:16] like peak experiences that kind of [5:18] change you. And so I'm interested in [5:21] that level of experience that shakes you [5:23] up, that gets you out of that circle, [5:25] that makes you aware that there is [5:28] another reality out there. So I have a [5:30] chapter in the book about how the brain [5:33] constructs what we consider as reality. [5:35] It con it constructs how we perceive the [5:37] world. It constructs of an ego, a self, [5:40] and all these other things. But there's [5:43] something else out there. There's [5:44] another way of experiencing the world. [5:46] And so the sublime is something that [5:48] lies outside that circle, right? There [5:51] these points. I compare them to [5:53] doorways. So the word sublime [5:56] in Latin means up to the threshold of a [5:59] door. Sublim limon meaning a threshold, [6:02] right? And so in these doorways to [6:05] something outside the circle, you're [6:07] moving closer to it and you're peering [6:09] through it and you're realizing there's [6:10] something else. There's something else [6:12] out there that's not part of your daily [6:14] experience. And it shakes you up. It [6:16] gives you a kind of shock. The sublime [6:18] is a mix of pain and pleasure. The pain [6:21] is it's outside my comfort zone. It's [6:25] not what I'm familiar with, but the [6:27] pleasure is the newness of it, the [6:29] novelty, the excitement that it [6:31] generates. And so each of those doorways [6:35] that I mention are are are chapters in [6:37] this book. But I'm trying to get you [6:41] outside of this. So the circle could be [6:44] rather small. When you were a child, [6:46] when you were born, that circle was [6:48] rather large because the world was so [6:50] new and fresh and unfamiliar and you [6:53] were excited about everything and your [6:55] imagination was animating everything [6:57] around you. And then as you get older, [6:59] it kind of gets smaller and smaller and [7:01] gets constricted and flat and you're not [7:04] using your imagination. Everything is [7:05] gets kind of dead to you. And so I'm [7:08] trying to enliven alter your experience [7:10] of life itself at its roots at it at the [7:13] very roots of your consciousness. And [7:15] unlike any of my other books, each [7:18] chapter ends with exercises that you can [7:20] use to kind of bring these ideas that [7:23] I've introduced to you in this specific [7:25] chapter into your daily experience. [7:27] Because I don't want this to be an [7:30] academic book about the sublime and the [7:33] brain and all these other things. I want [7:35] it to be something that you incorporate [7:37] into your daily life. [7:39] >> Do you march through these sorts of um I [7:44] want to say doors to perception, but [7:45] that was [7:46] >> No, that was Huxley. [7:47] >> That was Huxley, right? And he um [7:49] championed the use of LSD to get access [7:52] to and go through some of those doors um [7:54] >> and masculine. He was heavily into [7:56] masculine. Maybe we'll talk a little bit [7:57] about psychedelics and altering [7:59] perceptual windows, but I think most [8:02] people are very familiar with the fact [8:04] that their daily life and their [8:06] perceptions are very heavily [8:08] constrained. [8:08] >> Yeah. [8:09] >> Is certainly once we reach adulthood, [8:12] our experiences might not be mundane, [8:14] but they're certainly repetitive. [8:17] >> Yes. [8:18] >> In the book and and just in general, are [8:20] you a fan of accessing what you refer to [8:23] as the sublime on a regular basis? Is [8:26] this something that we can do like daily [8:28] through micro practices or is there real [8:30] value also in things that really take [8:34] that sphere of everyday experiences and [8:37] really turn it into a a completely [8:39] different shaped object. [8:41] >> I think both. So what happened to me I I [8:44] did a lot of uh drugs when I was in my [8:48] early 20s in my late teens and they had [8:51] a lasting effect on me. I can remember [8:54] taking one particular trip on Peyote in [8:56] the town of Mendescino up on the coast [8:59] in Northern California and I'll never [9:02] forget the experience and how it altered [9:04] how I look at just life itself, right? [9:06] The simplest things. And so when I had [9:09] the original concept for this book 20 [9:11] years ago, I was going to have things [9:13] like that. I was going to take drugs [9:15] like that. I was going to do Iawasa. I [9:18] was going to go to the Amazon. I was [9:20] going to do all these adventures [9:22] swimming with dolphins, seeing champ [9:24] chimpanzees in in the in Gobi National [9:27] Forest. Then I had my stroke, right? And [9:31] so my stroke made it so that my [9:34] near-death experience kind of brought [9:36] the sublime back to me in a very real [9:38] sense. I want to write this book, but I [9:42] can't travel. I can't do any of these [9:44] things that I thought I could do. I [9:46] could take the drugs, but I it' be a [9:48] little bit dangerous considering I can't [9:50] walk very well and my balance is bad. [9:52] So, sitting there in my office, how do I [9:55] write this book without those kinds of [9:57] experiences? [9:59] And I recalled when I just after my [10:01] stroke, I'm sitting in the hospital bed [10:04] the first day after kind of trying to [10:06] process what had happened to me. And I'm [10:09] looking out the window and everything [10:11] looks so different to me. It's as if I [10:14] had just been born. Everything looks [10:16] strange, isn't it? The sky is blue. It's [10:18] weird. Clouds are passing. I'm seeing [10:20] birds in there. I'm seeing trees swaying [10:22] in the wind. Go. God damn. This world is [10:25] insane. It is so beautiful. It is so [10:28] marvelous. I've never noticed it before. [10:31] It has this incandesence to it. Right. [10:34] And then it faded. That feeling faded [10:37] because it was the the shadow of death [10:39] that had come over me. And it kind of [10:41] death can create that kind of effect on [10:43] you. Then I'm home [10:46] and it's kind of missing and I'm [10:48] wondering how am I going to able to get [10:49] the sublime experience it in order to [10:51] write about it. I start looking out my [10:54] window again and sort of the feelings [10:56] start coming back and then I sit out in [10:58] my backyard which is not very large and [11:01] I'm seeing like there's this whole world [11:04] in the backyard. It's it's not the [11:05] Amazon. It's not Africa, but it's filled [11:08] with all these insects, all this life, [11:10] their flowers, their trees. So, my point [11:13] is the feeling starts coming over me [11:16] that the sublime is part of our everyday [11:19] life. It's everywhere around us, right? [11:22] You could look at this cup here that's [11:24] in front of us. Normally, we just see a [11:27] cup that we use to drink out of. But in [11:31] the sublime and sometimes on drugs and [11:33] sometimes after death, you look at it's [11:35] this weird shape. It's this funny color, [11:39] this handle. It's got it maybe even [11:41] seems to be alive in some ways. It's got [11:44] this material aspect to it. Nothing to [11:46] do with its use value. when you take [11:49] drugs, you know, even on cannabis that [11:52] something goes off in your brain where [11:54] you're looking at things as they are and [11:56] not as their uses and their functions [11:59] and the colors and the shapes and the [12:01] materials strike you just for what they [12:04] are. And they did when you were a child. [12:07] So my point is [12:09] it's all around you. Your body is the [12:13] product of 800 million years of [12:16] evolution. Your nervous system was like [12:19] the first eyes in in in the Cambrian [12:22] explosion when they first evolved eyes [12:24] and optic nerves and and a nervous [12:26] system, right? It's inside of your body. [12:30] You are a product of all these of [12:32] evolution. Your body is utterly weird [12:35] and sublime that it operates with [12:37] automatically. [12:39] You know, I just had surgery on my eye [12:42] because I had a a little sort of [12:44] cancerous melanoma there. He the doc the [12:47] surgeon cut into it. He cut in, you [12:49] know, it's pretty violent. He had to [12:51] take skin from my ear and replace it [12:54] there. It's only 10 days later and the [12:56] skin is growing back. It's insane. It's [13:00] miraculous. But the body can do. So the [13:02] sublime doesn't have to be these [13:04] extraordinary things. Just your [13:06] day-to-day life is filled with these [13:09] quasi miracles. 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I've been sleeping on an [15:17] eightle mattress cover for nearly 5 [15:19] years now and with each new iteration of [15:21] eight it gets better and better at [15:23] figuring out what my body needs in order [15:25] to get the best possible night's sleep. [15:27] If you would like to try eight, go to [15:29] eightsleep.com/huberman [15:31] to get up to $200 off their new pod 6. 8 [15:34] ships to many countries worldwide, [15:36] including Mexico and the UAE. Again, [15:39] that's eight.com/huberman [15:41] to save up to $200. Two weekends ago, I [15:44] was up at the Eselin Institute in Big [15:46] Su, and I love it. Love that. [15:48] >> Amazingly beautiful place. I hope [15:49] everyone gets the opportunity to visit [15:51] at least once. It's a spectacular place. [15:54] One of the founders, Michael Murphy, is [15:55] now 96. Yeah. [15:57] >> And he was describing what we don't know [15:59] if it was a stroke or it was some other [16:01] event, but he had sort of a blackout and [16:03] fall recently. He's very clear-headed [16:05] and fortunately still still mobile. He [16:08] was talking about the aftermath of that [16:12] experience and how um his sort of [16:15] pixelation of the world was altered in [16:18] some way that [16:19] >> has now allowed him to appreciate all [16:21] these different colors and shapes in the [16:24] same environment that he's spent so much [16:26] time. So it matches very well what you [16:29] described. Yeah. [16:30] >> And artists like Chuck Close who had [16:33] visual quote unquote deficits that [16:35] allowed them to do incredible art at a [16:37] different kind of spatial scale. [16:39] >> The famous example is the painter El [16:41] Greco [16:42] >> with, you know, his odd shapes and how [16:44] he figures the human uh body. It's so [16:46] weird. It's like looking through a [16:48] concave mirror or something. He had some [16:50] kind of eye problem, right? There's lots [16:53] of examples of artists like that. [16:55] >> Yeah. So it raises this question for me [16:57] uh which is to access the sublime [17:02] is it sufficient for us to just think [17:06] about our current perceptions [17:08] differently like we so taking away drugs [17:12] taking away strokes and the level of [17:16] perception that I have now my perceptual [17:18] abilities to hear music a certain way [17:21] and see the world a certain way feel [17:22] touch a certain way they're constrained [17:25] But they're pretty vast. This is true [17:27] for everybody. But I do have the option [17:29] to think about them differently. Is that [17:32] one portal into the sublime? Or do we [17:34] actually need to change our perception, [17:36] our default perception? Because what you [17:38] described for you or [clears throat] [17:39] what Michael Murphy described for him [17:41] was forced upon them right [17:43] >> on you and you turned it into gifts. Not [17:47] the least of which is components of of [17:49] the book. But for most people and drugs [17:52] will do this too, right? But is it is [17:55] there a portal to the sublime through [17:57] just thinking about our current [17:59] perception sans's drug sans's brain uh [18:03] events just differently just to decide [18:06] I'm going to look at this mug [18:08] differently and it will have some [18:10] >> meaningful output. [18:11] >> Yes. Um, so I talk in the book, there's [18:15] a chapter what I call the neuros sublime [18:17] where I'm talking about how the brain [18:18] constructs the world around us and I [18:21] discuss I don't know if you've ever had [18:23] Dr. Jill Bolty Taylor on your on your [18:25] show. [18:25] >> I have not. [18:26] >> But I discuss her stroke and what it did [18:29] for her. But then there's this Armenian [18:32] mystic named Gerfv, right? Amazing man. [18:36] It was the turn of the 20th century and [18:38] he visited all of the uh most esoteric [18:43] cults in the Middle East and the Far [18:45] East because he had this idea that they [18:47] were about to disappear and he wanted to [18:50] glean all of their secrets and create [18:52] this new kind of philosophy that would [18:54] alter human consciousness. [18:57] And he had this experiment that he said [19:00] what makes a human being human is our [19:02] attention. [19:04] So, an animal, and God bless, I love [19:06] animals, but their attention is [19:08] generally somewhat limited to what's in [19:11] front of them, to their needs to [19:12] survive, they're not looking up at the [19:15] sky and wondering about what's going on, [19:17] right? They're not thinking about what's [19:19] on the other side of that mountain and [19:20] what's happening. So, we have the [19:23] ability of this incredible attention. [19:26] And we when we pay attention to [19:27] something and we focus on it, we kind of [19:30] alter our brain chemistry and something [19:32] magical can happen. And he had this [19:35] notion that people are just sleepwalking [19:37] through life that they're not awake. He [19:40] said if a human being were truly awake, [19:42] there would not be wars. We would not be [19:44] killing each other. Would not be all [19:45] this misery that we inflict on fellow [19:48] humans, right? We're asleep. We're not [19:50] we're not aware of what we're doing. He [19:53] had this exercise. He calls it [19:55] self-remembering. I talk about it in the [19:57] book and he says you have an experience [20:01] and a moment in life and you focus on it [20:03] deeply and you tell yourself you're [20:05] remembering it. You're going to remember [20:07] it because what happens is what happened [20:10] 3 years ago on a day in July. You'll [20:13] never remember what happened there cuz [20:15] you were asleep. You weren't paying [20:17] attention. There are moments in life [20:19] where you're paying attention where you [20:21] get some kind of shock and you remember [20:22] it. He wants you to have that kind of [20:24] focus every day. So he has this exercise [20:28] where you look at things deeply and just [20:31] focus on them. I'm remembering. I'm [20:32] remembering. I'm I'm experiencing it in [20:34] the moment. [20:37] And he had this pupil named Uspensky, a [20:39] very famous mystic, Russian mystic who [20:42] was deeply depressed, who was suicidal, [20:44] and he became a a a pupil, a disciple of [20:47] Gerv. He starts practicing this. He [20:50] looks at a vase of flowers in his room, [20:53] focusing and attending it. I'm [20:55] remembering it. I'm seeing it. I'm here [20:57] today. I'm looking at it. [20:59] After 30 seconds, your mind wanders. He [21:02] can't do it. But then after a minute, he [21:04] notices that that flower starts looking [21:07] different and the degree of his focus [21:10] and attention on it just as it is. As [21:12] he's telling himself, I'm going to [21:13] remember it in three years. It'll be [21:16] stamped in my memory. He gets better at [21:19] it and then he walks outside after he [21:22] gets after months of practicing this [21:24] just looking at things, simple objects [21:27] and suddenly the houses look different [21:30] to him. They look like they're almost [21:31] like alive. Everything is intense. He's [21:34] walking outside and he's got this [21:36] attention, this focus. The world is [21:38] altering. And then suddenly he finds [21:43] himself in a tobaconist [21:45] on completely on the other side of [21:47] Moscow or St. Petersburg but I don't [21:49] remember which city cuz what happened he [21:52] realized that he a moment he fell asleep [21:56] and he wasn't remembering things and 3 [21:58] hours later he was on the other side of [21:59] town in a tobacus buying cigarettes. [22:01] Wow. And what he realized is [22:04] he had this intense focus remembering [22:07] where he's awake and now it made him [22:10] realize that normally in life you are [22:12] asleep. [22:14] We don't realize how asleep we are [22:16] because we don't have that contrast to [22:18] what it's like to be fully awake. So my [22:22] point is it's an exercise that can [22:24] literally alter your neurology in some [22:27] way. It can alter how you perceive [22:29] things. It doesn't require drugs. it [22:31] requires this kind of intense focus and [22:34] meditation can have the same effect. I [22:37] do meditation every morning. [22:39] They've proven that meditation literally [22:42] alters your brain. There's literally [22:44] something your thoughts can alter the [22:46] matter of your the wiring of your brain. [22:49] So you don't need drugs. Drugs are a [22:52] wonderful gateway and Huxley describes [22:53] it beautifully. But there are practices [22:56] among Tibetan Buddhists, Zen Buddhists [22:59] where they get similar kind of effects [23:01] through meditation, right? Or through [23:03] some of these practices that I [23:05] mentioned. [23:06] >> There's this wild finding in [23:08] neuroscience, visual neuroscience that [23:10] comes to mind uh that I'll just briefly [23:12] share with you if you want to reflect on [23:14] great. And if not, then uh certainly [23:17] just tell us. So, we assume that when we [23:20] look at something that our perception of [23:22] it is pretty stable, but there's this [23:26] really cool set of experiments where [23:28] they paralyze the eyes of people. [23:32] >> Yeah. [23:32] >> In a reversible way. And and you quickly [23:36] find that if you look at something, they [23:38] can perceive it and then it disappears [23:40] because our nervous system has our eyes [23:43] move. these sacads as you know but it's [23:45] all about change in the same way that [23:47] you walk in a room it smells really good [23:48] and then the smell disappears but it [23:50] didn't disappear you got this [23:51] habituation [23:52] >> right [23:52] >> this happens everywhere in the nervous [23:54] system [23:54] >> then there's this wild finding that if [23:57] you continue to have people look at the [24:00] same location [24:02] >> the percept of what was there changes in [24:06] in a significant way [snorts] and of [24:09] course the physical attributes of the [24:10] thing didn't change but the but the the [24:13] perception that the the conversion of [24:14] those photons into what we perceive the [24:17] abstraction of what's out there changes. [24:19] I think it matches precisely with what [24:21] you're describing. What's so incredible [24:24] in the example you gave is that the [24:27] person was able to sort of maintain that [24:30] shifted perception for long periods of [24:32] time. It's almost like it enters the [24:33] memory system. We can get back to the to [24:35] the perception but also the state that [24:37] we were in of being quote unquote awake. [24:40] I find that remarkable. Yeah. [24:42] >> Because the the the mug, the the vase, [24:45] the flower, they're beautiful, certainly [24:48] flowers, but in some sense they're [24:50] trivial, too, right? Like there's [24:51] nothing inherently interesting about a [24:53] mug until I start creating a story about [24:56] it. Like people designed this, it's got [24:58] all these wonderful, but you really have [25:00] to go down that rabbit hole. So the [25:02] question I have is given how malleable [25:05] our perceptions are, what [25:09] quality of meaning is actually [25:13] meaningful because like on drugs and [25:17] this is one of the problems with [25:18] psychedelics or MDMA for instance, [25:21] >> one has to be very careful certainly on [25:24] MDMA which this is an pathogenic drug [25:26] right because you can hear a song and [25:29] you can fall in love with your love for [25:32] that song on repeat for four full hours [25:35] which is perhaps interesting. There [25:37] might be an insight or few there but in [25:40] some sense it's not like one could say [25:43] well that's trivial. you you assigned a [25:45] meaning to something that's trivial. And [25:47] I think that's where people get scared [25:49] that if they start to go through these [25:51] uh portals to to the sublime that [25:55] they're going to end up kind of weird, [25:57] that they're going to be the person [25:58] that's like, "Did you see how many ants [26:03] are crawling up that curb?" And you're [26:06] like, "Yeah, it's cool." But you know, [26:07] like if you Yeah, if you go down there, [26:09] I'm sure it's pretty cool, right? But no [26:11] one, most people don't want to be that [26:13] guy or that lady all the time because we [26:17] have a name for that and it's not kind. [26:20] None of us want to be the crazy person [26:22] who's who's creating meaning out of the [26:24] trivial. So, how do we cope with that? [26:26] Because the way I'm looking at it is [26:29] you're actually seeing things as they [26:31] are because your brain is filtering down [26:34] things for you and creating this [26:36] familiarity and this sameness so that [26:39] your mind isn't overwhelmed with chaos [26:42] >> so that you can get through the you know [26:44] um Aldos Huxley in in doors of [26:47] perception was calling the mind at large [26:50] that if you didn't have this filtering [26:51] all you would be seeing all of these [26:53] incredible things but the mind is like [26:56] this little funnel that just kind of [26:57] filters and prunes everything that you [26:59] see. [27:00] >> So, I'm talking the sublime not as [27:02] something crazy, not as like, oh, [27:04] there's all this could be a bunch of [27:05] ants. I'm actually this is how the world [27:08] actually is. You're awakening to how [27:11] things actually are outside of the [27:13] pruning of your brain. So I talk in the [27:17] book about the artist Caesan [27:20] who was obsessed with vision and the [27:23] visual uh arena and how he could alter [27:25] his vision by focusing on things right [27:29] and so his expression was [27:33] we humans are given consciousness so [27:35] that we can spread consciousness [27:36] everywhere. So his his his saying was I [27:41] am the consciousness of the landscape. I [27:44] am making the landscape come to life and [27:47] think and be alive. Right? So he had [27:49] this idea [27:51] that mountains are actually living [27:53] breathing things and that his mind is is [27:56] giving it life. And he looked at trees [27:58] like that and he would fall in he would [28:01] stare at one tree outside of his house. [28:03] It was like an apricot tree and he would [28:06] just just every he trying to focus on [28:08] what what it was, what it actually is. [28:11] We don't look at things like that [28:13] anymore. We just see the word tree. We [28:15] see the category tree. He was seeing the [28:18] apricots on it. And he was seeing the [28:20] apricots getting larger as this sun was [28:22] hitting them, right? Getting sweeter and [28:25] sweeter and and kind of to him it was [28:27] like an erotic relationship between the [28:29] apricot and the sun. Now you might say [28:31] that's insane. I don't think so. I think [28:34] it's actually beautiful. I think our [28:35] minds are allowed. We're not just [28:38] rational creatures. We are creating [28:40] emotions through everything we see. And [28:43] so I get I get a little bit frustrated [28:46] with how rational our culture has [28:48] become. So for example, AI, [28:52] which is the talk everyone's talking [28:54] about now. People are continually [28:56] anthropomorphizing AI. It is a machine. [29:00] It's not conscious. It is a machine that [29:02] we have programmed. And yet even these [29:05] very rational scientists are talking [29:06] about it as if it's conscious. They're [29:08] anthropomorphizing it. We are creatures [29:11] that are constantly putting emotions [29:13] into things. I don't think it's [29:16] irrational because I think science has [29:18] that has that basis in it as well. I'm [29:21] just saying that our thoughts have [29:22] become so limited and constricted that [29:25] the ability to see a vase of flowers and [29:28] see it as this intense strange [29:31] miraculous thing to actually focus on [29:33] its colors and the life that it has and [29:36] how in cutting it and putting it in in [29:40] this in this water, you're keeping it [29:41] alive, but it's it's actually cut. So, [29:44] it's not really living. It's just [29:46] strange. So, it's not your imagination [29:50] putting it's actually seeing things as [29:52] they are, which we don't do. [29:55] Am I Am I crazy? [29:57] >> You're definitely not crazy. And I'm And [29:58] by the way, I'm totally on board. Uh [30:01] this notion and and the practice of [30:05] looking at things differently in order [30:07] to experience life differently, to [30:10] extract more mean, real meaning from [30:12] from life. Many times growing up in [30:14] California, I've been here 51 years. I [30:16] can remember driving along Highway 101 [30:19] >> and and I would stop and you know and [30:22] I'd like pee on the side of the road and [30:25] I would see some like beautiful fence [30:26] lines. I love fence lines and I would [30:28] think oh these this fence line looks so [30:30] old with barbed wire. [30:31] >> What if you're just in fence lines? I'm [30:33] curious about that. [30:34] >> I don't know. I I don't know. I just [30:35] think they're beautiful and they're a [30:37] lot of old fence lines along 280 um and [30:40] along 101 when you drive from Southern [30:41] to Northern California and just big [30:45] fields, you know, still undeveloped um [30:47] to this day. And occasionally you'll see [30:50] like an old what looks like a cabin [30:51] that's like no one's bothered to [30:53] >> take away. It's like falling over and I [30:55] would [30:56] >> need to get someplace. So I would get [30:58] back in my car and drive away. But [31:00] inevitably when I get out, you know, and [31:03] pee and then I'd like look at the fence [31:05] line and I think there's so much [31:07] interesting detail just in this little [31:09] um interface between the barbed wire and [31:12] the wood on the fence line. And I used [31:14] and I still have this thought. I'm like [31:15] I could spend all day there. [31:17] >> Yeah. [31:17] >> But I have to go someplace else, you [31:19] know. And then I realize and there there [31:22] are an infinite number of spatial scales [31:24] that we can look at things. [31:25] >> Yeah. [31:26] >> I I think we can agree that's true. And [31:28] then there are an infinite number of [31:30] temporal scales that we can look at [31:32] things and experience things. And this [31:33] is the thing I' I'd like to get your [31:34] your thoughts on. [31:36] >> So the spatial scale is pretty [31:38] straightforward for most people to [31:40] digest. So you say, okay, well, I can [31:42] look at something very small in my [31:44] environment, the texture of something or [31:47] I can look at the whole environment. And [31:49] we had Der Kelner on the podcast. He's a [31:51] Berkeley scientist who studies awe. And [31:53] he said that the experience of awe comes [31:55] about when we transition quickly from [31:58] focusing on small spatial scales to big [32:00] spatial scales. Like walking through a [32:02] forest and suddenly there's a huge [32:03] vista. [32:04] >> Oh wow. [32:04] >> You know um you're in Neoseity and [32:06] you're like all of a sudden you reach a [32:07] peak and it's like you know and vice [32:09] versa. Big spatial scales to small [32:11] spatial scales. But most people [32:12] experience going from small spatial [32:14] scale to big. Okay. [32:15] >> So that makes sense. But the time domain [32:19] is one that is very intriguing to me [32:22] because [32:22] >> Oh, so [32:23] >> on a daily basis, like we're constrained [32:26] by the circadian rhythm when we're [32:27] awake, when we're asleep. Okay, no [32:29] escaping that. [32:30] >> But we tend to move through life, I [32:32] realize realized a couple of years ago [32:35] on the with the same kind of snapshot [32:38] speed, the same frame rate. You make [32:40] your coffee, you do your thing, you [32:42] know, but you can slow this down by [32:44] taking a higher frame. You can stop and [32:46] watch your espresso pour with immense [32:49] amounts of temporal detail. So, you're [32:51] collecting more information. [32:52] >> You can't do that all day. He won't do [32:54] anything else. [32:55] >> But we can also slow things down, like [32:57] lie in the yard and look at the clouds [32:58] pass and start taking [33:00] >> bigger snapshots. And this to me feels [33:03] like a critical piece of this [33:06] perception, [33:08] you know, accessing the sublime because [33:10] >> what your story about this gentleman who [33:12] realized he was in a dream tells us [33:15] >> is that the space-time filter, [33:18] >> we're talking about physics but not the [33:19] cosmos, but the the space-time filter, [33:21] like how we move through life, the speed [33:24] of our camera, [33:25] >> Yeah. [33:25] >> and the pixel density of our camera, the [33:27] resolution of our camera [33:29] >> is everything. So if you're and forgive [33:33] me for going long here, my audience is [33:35] probably already saying like let your [33:36] guest speak. But but there's there the [33:38] best example I have is my graduate [33:40] adviser was uh who died at 50, a [33:42] remarkable woman was dying of cancer and [33:45] there was two girls and married to a [33:46] scientist. I was very very close with [33:47] her family and I will never forget our [33:49] final conversation and she was telling [33:51] me about some of the goodness she had [33:53] experienced recently and she did share [33:55] with me that [33:57] she had started in the realization that [34:00] she was going to be dead soon to think [34:02] about the tiniest things in the space [34:06] and time domain like they're all [34:08] redheads in that family, bright red [34:10] hair, like like the curls of her [34:12] daughter's hair moving when she walked [34:14] into the room to see her. [34:15] >> Uhhuh. Uhhuh. her frame rate was [34:17] changing, [34:18] >> right? [34:18] >> And I find this to be moving and also in [34:22] some way that I don't yet understand [34:24] informative. [34:25] >> Uhhuh. [34:25] >> For those of us that hopefully, [34:28] fortunately, are not close to the end or [34:31] who are. So, what is your thought about [34:34] the time domain, this temporal parsing [34:36] of of experience? I had this thought a [34:39] while ago that what made childhood so [34:43] interesting and weird and why we [34:45] remember it the way it was and why it [34:47] was so intense was that there was this [34:50] space between thoughts [34:52] and that had a big um play on our [34:55] conception of time. [34:57] >> Right? So now our stream of [34:59] consciousness is like broken up into a [35:02] million different fragments. I'm [35:03] thinking of you right now. in 2 seconds [35:05] I'll be thinking of my cat. You know, [35:07] it'll bounce back and forth between the [35:09] thoughts are just continual. But when [35:12] you were a child, there was like this [35:14] space. You would think something, then [35:17] there would be this kind of emptiness. [35:18] There would be like a minute would go [35:20] by, there wouldn't be another thought, [35:22] then there would be another one. And [35:24] that space in between thoughts [35:27] created a different rhythm of life. So [35:29] when you're living, particularly [35:31] nowadays with the Instagram model where [35:34] you're just your attention is broken up [35:36] into millions of little splinters, time [35:39] has this rhythm that's just not life. [35:42] It's just not how life should be. It's [35:44] just way too fast. It's way too broken [35:46] up. But that sense of there's a space [35:50] between my two thoughts. There's like [35:51] this emptiness creates this kind of flow [35:54] of time that's much different. [35:57] So I talk in the book about the [35:59] childhood experience of time which kind [36:01] of fascinates me. And so I have the [36:05] example in there of this writer Nabacov [36:07] the the famous novelist who was obsessed [36:10] with his childhood. And the reason he [36:12] was obsessed with it was he had this [36:14] kind of magical childhood growing up in [36:16] Russia. His father was wealthy. They had [36:19] this amazing villa out in the country. [36:22] His life was just full of all these [36:24] adventures and he studied butterflies [36:26] intensely. And then the Russian [36:29] revolution breaks out. His father is [36:31] murdered as as someone who's wealthy. [36:34] They have to leave uh Russia. His mother [36:38] dies in an apartment in Berlin. He has [36:41] to flee with his Jewish wife to New York [36:43] because the Nazis are there. His brother [36:45] dies in a concentration camp. His whole [36:48] family is gone. He can never return to [36:51] Russia because Stalin is now in power, [36:53] right? He has no photographs, no [36:56] memorabilia, no family left. But he has [36:59] this memory of this magical childhood. [37:02] And so his experiment, he wrote a book [37:03] called Speak Memory in which he tries to [37:06] recreate the experience of his childhood [37:10] in the adult mind, remembering it, not [37:12] remembering facts, but remembering the [37:14] experience. And so he talks a lot about [37:17] time. And so the image is that when [37:21] you're a child, time is something that's [37:23] inside of you. Our concept of time is [37:27] something outside. It's abstract, right? [37:30] The minutes are passing. So the image I [37:33] use, it's of like time is like a river. [37:36] It's a flow. And when you're a child, [37:38] you're in in the river and you're [37:40] feeling the flow and moments are passing [37:43] by. It's living inside of you. When [37:46] you're an adult, you're on the shoreline [37:47] and you're looking at time passing by [37:49] and you have this. You can look at the [37:51] past, the future, wherever your mind [37:53] takes you. And time has this different [37:54] rhythm. But when you're a child, it's [37:57] inside of you're part of that flow. And [37:59] he remembers that he was thinking at [38:02] times like, "My god, we're all alive at [38:05] the same time. All these we're all these [38:07] humans bathing in this river at the same [38:10] time. We're alive. We feel it." I don't [38:13] know if this concept is is too abstract [38:15] to for you to understand but in my [38:18] meditations as I'm thinking about the [38:21] passage of time because what will happen [38:22] when you meditate [38:24] you meditate for 40 I meditate for 40 [38:26] minutes and sometimes it like passes by [38:29] and you don't even you're not even aware [38:31] your concept of time is altered by the [38:34] slowness of this process right and I [38:37] will feel that time is inside of me that [38:40] I have this flow it's a physical [38:41] sensation of time passing. I'm alive [38:45] moment to moment. I'm inside the present [38:47] moment. Time has this different rhythm [38:50] and that is a sublime experience of [38:53] time. And I take readers through that [38:55] exercise of the actual river and [38:57] actually feeling yourself inside the [39:00] river and feeling the flow of time. It [39:02] has a much different consciousness [39:04] effect on our consciousness when you go [39:07] through this process. [39:08] I have an absolute obsession of about [39:11] this uh time perception thing in no [39:13] small part because if as a younger [39:16] person I realize I could look at the [39:19] fence line in great detail or keep [39:21] moving on [39:22] >> at this conversation with Barbara it was [39:24] the our last conversation before she [39:26] passed. I went on to realize it's not [39:28] uncommon that as people get closer and [39:30] closer to the end, provided they are [39:32] lucid, and she was, it's as if there was [39:35] an avalanche of new and beautiful [39:38] information pouring in. And I should [39:41] point out this was not the the report of [39:43] somebody who was like kind of drifting [39:46] away. I mean, that was part of the [39:47] sadness of it all. She was very present [39:49] but in that presence she was able to [39:51] extract what seemed like many many years [39:55] of experience [39:56] >> and in a non she was a very calm person [39:59] always and in a very non anxious or [40:02] urgent way it's as if the end was coming [40:04] and instead of freaking out her her [40:08] perception the camera onto the world [40:11] just became super high resolution [40:14] >> right [40:15] >> and at you know near infinity frame [40:18] Right. And she was just reporting these [40:20] things. [40:20] >> This is as she's dying. [40:22] >> Well, she was about a week out at that [40:24] point. [40:24] >> Yeah. [40:25] >> So close. Yeah. [40:26] >> I have a whole chapter on death and the [40:28] death sublime and near-death [40:30] experiences. [40:32] And what often happens in the death [40:34] process is the brain is dying as well, [40:38] right? And as the brain dies, some of [40:41] the things the constructions of the [40:43] brain such as time, right? and such as [40:46] vision and such as the self start [40:49] breaking down, start dissolving. [40:52] Near-death experiencers have this sense [40:54] sometimes of ecstasy as they're dying. [40:57] Now, not all of them, and the studies of [40:59] near-death experiences, [41:01] about 85%, I'm just throwing out that [41:04] number, are positive, but then there's [41:05] the hellish near-death experience. So [41:07] they're not all angels and beauty and [41:10] stuff, but a lot of people are dying and [41:13] they feel the ego dissolving and they [41:15] feel the sense of abstract time [41:16] dissolving. They feel all the social [41:19] pressures of life dissolving and they're [41:21] ecstatic. They're elated. It's like a [41:23] liberation, right? It's the sense that [41:26] time is actually much more plastic than [41:30] we think it is. The first person to [41:32] study near-death experiences was in the [41:34] 19th century was this man named Albert [41:35] Heheim. He was a Swiss man. He was an [41:38] alpine climber when he was very young. [41:40] And when he was like 21, he fell as he [41:44] was climbing. He was going to die. It [41:45] was like a 100 foot fall. And as he's [41:48] falling, suddenly he remembers his whole [41:51] life, right? All these things he starts [41:54] revisiting it. And then later he starts [41:57] to wants to analyze it and he goes [42:00] in 15 seconds of a fall I had [42:03] experienced like years of things [42:06] happening right the condensation was [42:08] insane. He wrote an article about it and [42:12] suddenly hundreds of other articles [42:14] start coming to him of people who had [42:16] near-death who fell in climbing uh [42:19] accidents and had the same experience [42:22] and people who like jump off Golden Gate [42:25] Bridge. The few who survive and there [42:27] are some people who survive speak of the [42:29] same thing. their experience of time as [42:31] they're falling and as they're about to [42:33] die is completely altered and in just [42:36] those 10 seconds it's as if they lived [42:38] like 5 years or something. So our sense [42:42] of time is not so logical and rational [42:45] as we think it is and we can alter our [42:47] perception of time literally by how we [42:50] think and how we experience life. [42:53] >> I'd like to take a quick break and [42:54] acknowledge our sponsor AG1. I'm excited [42:57] to share that AG1 has just launched [42:59] their newest formulation, AG1 Pro. AG1 [43:02] Pro takes the clinically backed AG1 [43:04] formula, which is a blend of vitamins, [43:06] minerals, probiotics, and adaptogens, [43:08] and adds three important new [43:09] ingredients: creatine monohydrate, [43:12] calcium HMBB, and zinc carnosine. 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Again, [43:58] go to drinka1.com/huberman [44:01] to get a free bottle of omega-3 [44:02] co-enzyme Q10 with your first AG1 [44:05] subscription. One of the reasons I love [44:07] aquaria and I have so many fish tanks is [44:09] that whether there's one fish or octopus [44:12] or many when you look at a fish tank or [44:16] an ocean scene of any kind, the mind [44:18] enters this weird state because you [44:22] can't control nor you can nor can you [44:24] predict what's going to happen next. If [44:25] a fish is swimming leftward, you sort of [44:27] predict it will continue to swim [44:28] leftward but then as soon as you predict [44:30] that it gen it moves. And so there's [44:32] this you sort of have to let go of your [44:34] anticipation of what's going to happen [44:36] next. There's some constraints, [44:38] >> but it puts my mind into this like it's [44:43] almost like a it releases something. [44:46] It's the the expectation component is [44:48] just has to unlatch [44:50] >> and in that I think you get additional [44:52] perception. [44:52] >> That's interesting. It [44:53] >> just unlatches. I mean there's nothing [44:56] you can do. I think looking at the shore [44:57] at the ocean is the same. the waves roll [44:59] in generally, you know, objects fall [45:01] down as opposed to up. We we know this, [45:03] but I think it's the the presence of of [45:07] unpredictable things. We we just accept [45:09] it and then the brain just goes [45:10] someplace new and and I think useful. [45:13] >> This is slightly off a little bit off [45:15] what you're saying, but there's a story [45:16] in there about a man who had a [45:18] relationship with an octopus. So, I [45:20] think you can relate to that. He wrote [45:21] he did that famous movie, My Friend the [45:23] Octop, right? Right. Mhm. [45:25] >> But he actually has a story about he [45:27] wrote a book about it and he essentially [45:31] decides that he's going to cold dive off [45:34] the coasts of South Africa where he grew [45:36] up. Incredibly cold temperatures. [45:38] There's a kelp forest, which is a kind [45:41] of a strange concept, right? It's a [45:44] forest underwater of all this [45:45] magnificent kelp and the weirdest [45:48] creatures live in there, including [45:49] octopus. And he he's not going there [45:52] looking for octopus. He's he's free [45:54] diving in this very cold water exploring [45:57] this insane landscape and he comes upon [46:00] an octopus [46:02] and they slowly become friends and they [46:05] have a slightly erotic relationship. [46:08] It's clear the way he describes it that [46:09] there was like this love interest and [46:11] this sort of eroticism because at one [46:13] point the octopus, you know, grabs his [46:17] arm and he can feel it and it's like [46:20] it's pretty intense and then at one [46:22] moment the octopus has grabbed him and [46:24] they float together to the top and it [46:26] was like this this love thing going on [46:28] between them, right? And then of course, [46:30] as you know, the octopus dies, right? [46:33] and he's he's heartbroken about and [46:35] that's when he decides he's going to do [46:37] this. Well, he's been he's been filming [46:39] the whole thing and he's going to create [46:40] this film. But my point is in the six or [46:45] eight months that he had this [46:46] relationship quote unquote with this [46:48] octopus, his whole concept of time was [46:51] altered because he was living in her [46:54] time. It was a female obviously laid [46:56] eggs and died. [46:59] Imagine an octopus lives for 3 years at [47:02] most. And he saw all these intense [47:04] experiences. It got attacked by a shark. [47:06] It lost some of its limbs. The limbs [47:08] grew back. [47:11] This three years, what is its sense of [47:13] time compressed in those three years is [47:16] just all of these incredible [47:17] experiences. And he felt in being close [47:21] to this octopus, he was like living in [47:24] her time period. Time was passing at a [47:26] diff much different rhythm as he was [47:28] living in her world. And so the idea is [47:32] that there are animal insects that live [47:34] for like a month, right? And so our [47:38] experience of time is relative to our [47:40] time span as well. And in these kind of [47:43] encounters [47:45] with other species, we can kind of some [47:48] ways alter our concept of time. If you [47:50] try to experiment that with your dog, [47:52] you might find something similar. How [47:54] does your dog experience time? I I feel [47:57] like uh this conversation was like [47:58] designed to enchant me. So I'm just [48:01] thank you. Yeah. You know that having [48:04] had dogs and now another puppy, you I'm [48:07] familiar with the rhythm. You entrain to [48:09] their rhythm and they to you. [48:10] >> This is a big part of the relationship. [48:12] Like the daily walk becomes a [48:14] prerequisite. It's not a it's not an [48:16] option. The dog needs it and and and you [48:18] learn to love everything about it. And [48:20] that word feels really relevant here. [48:22] Entrainment. You know, we're we're bound [48:23] to this circadian rhythm, this 24-hour [48:25] rhythm. As I mentioned earlier, nobody [48:27] escapes it. Some people need more sleep [48:29] than others, but nobody escapes it. But [48:32] everything else, we're sort of entrained [48:33] to a particular schedule, and our body [48:36] learns to anticipate things and adjust [48:38] our perception, our energy levels to [48:40] when we exercise, when we work, when we [48:42] see our um significant other and or dog [48:45] or both. The idea that we can access [48:49] different time perception references, [48:52] time domains through interactions with [48:54] other species is like absolutely [48:56] thrilling to me. Absolutely thrilling. [48:58] And I will say, having had several [49:00] octopuses now and cuttlefish prior to [49:02] that that um I had Oh, yeah. I had many [49:05] cuttlefish in my lab in San Diego. Wow. [49:07] >> I think we had 40 cuttlefish at one [49:09] point. And they're like little [49:10] underwater Hufflepod monkeys. They're [49:13] also incredibly intelligent and do all [49:15] sorts of wild stuff [49:16] >> and they cam changing colors. [49:18] >> Beautiful camouflage ability and and [49:19] they can camouflage half their body. The [49:21] males will sometimes in the wild will um [49:24] camouflage as females and then enter a [49:26] clutch of females and then mate with [49:28] them. You know, uh a separate podcast [49:31] could discuss the ethics or lack thereof [49:33] of of that. But in any case, I think [49:35] they're referred to in the scientific [49:37] literature as sneaky [laughter] [49:40] >> Doesn't sound very scientific to me. [49:41] Yeah, you know, well, evolutionary [49:43] biologists is sort of like two rules is [49:45] the joke. They tend to hyphenate their [49:47] names even if they aren't married. It's [49:49] a sort of a weird quirk of evolution [49:51] biologists some. And the other is that [49:54] they love to insert cursing into their [49:57] scientific papers. It's like it's like a [49:59] thing. [50:00] >> I have no idea. [50:01] >> In any case, my mom's an avid gardener [50:03] and and she spends time with her tomato [50:06] plants and her plants. I think I think [50:08] that we can access these different time [50:09] portals through interactions with [50:11] plants. [50:12] >> Sure. Of course, [50:13] >> what you're describing is and and the [50:15] reason I'm enchanted is is that it's [50:17] really like the richness of life is [50:19] available to us when we let go of our [50:22] kind of mostly humanmade things. And I [50:25] don't [clears throat] want to focus on [50:26] the negative, but because there are [50:29] certainly positive attributes of [50:30] technology, but I'm concerned that [50:34] something about excessive use of social [50:37] media is that you said earlier that [50:40] we're programmed, but that we're like [50:43] with each passing year, we're becoming [50:45] more and more locked to one time [50:48] space-time relationship, [50:50] >> right? and an expectation of dopamine [50:54] updating and novelty, etc., [50:57] >> and going away for a weekend without the [50:59] phone, um, or getting a a total night's [51:02] sleep without the phone in the room. [51:04] >> Yeah. [51:04] >> Um, not looking at it for the first 30 [51:06] minutes of the day. I think anyone who's [51:08] done those things will say that it [51:10] significantly alters and improves one's [51:13] experience of the rest of the day. [51:15] >> Right. Right. [51:16] >> So maybe we are being programmed, not to [51:18] sound paranoid, [51:19] >> well, we are. And it it's it's whose [51:22] interest are we being programmed for? I [51:25] mean, um, is it is it just to to make [51:28] money? Because if people's attention [51:31] spans are kind of con constantly being [51:32] splintered this way, it's harder to [51:35] focus. It's much more you're much more [51:38] vulnerable to influence, [51:40] >> right? [51:41] to advertisements to to all kinds of [51:44] gimmicks and things that are being [51:46] implanted in your brain because you're [51:48] not able to focus deeply enough and [51:50] think independently. So there's that [51:53] danger and then on the level of mastery [51:57] in which I'm talking about how the human [51:58] brain functions and what it wants and [52:01] what what it needs as nourishment is it [52:04] needs slowness. It needs the slow pace [52:07] of learning bit by bit by bit by bit [52:11] progressing and then the brain alters as [52:14] new pathways are created. And so you are [52:17] literally in charge of your brain and [52:20] how you the landscape of your brain. And [52:23] when it's like this other rhythm that [52:25] people are programming for you, it's a [52:27] landscape. It's like a desert. There's [52:29] no life coming up in it. there's no [52:31] connections that are happening and [52:33] you're such so much more vulnerable to [52:36] people's influence, right? And that's to [52:39] me the scary part. Yeah. One of the most [52:41] impressive things I saw in the last year [52:43] or so is this um gold medalist at the [52:46] Olympics, a freestyle skier from um this [52:49] woman who's at Stanford, I think her [52:51] name is Ailen Goo. There's a press [52:53] conference uh where somebody asks her, [52:56] "What do you do to like train your mind? [52:57] you seem so articulate and and so sharp [53:00] and um and in my mind I'm thinking you [53:03] know uh [53:04] >> lean is clearly uh you know you know far [53:07] to the the right of average on on many [53:10] many things right but at Stanford and [53:12] elsewhere but I will say often at [53:14] Stanford you encounter this phenotype [53:16] >> like extremely articulate and very fast [53:20] and very present yeah it's like a thing [53:22] and again not just at Stanford but there [53:24] are a lot of them among the [53:26] undergraduates especially [53:28] So her answer is is incredible. Her [53:31] answer was about slowness, not about [53:33] speed. [53:34] >> Her answer was that she spends a lot of [53:36] time in her head thinking about her [53:38] thinking, pressure testing her beliefs [53:40] and understanding. And from that she [53:43] realized she can shape her thoughts [53:45] through neuroplasticity and become the [53:47] person she wants to be. Wow. And then [53:49] and then in a very um delightful way she [53:51] she throws in that she's young and [53:53] therefore she also still has plasticity. [53:54] So she's not done, she's still going. So [53:56] the but the the interesting part about [53:58] it there are many interesting things [53:59] about her but the the interesting part [54:01] of that was that the speed that she can [54:06] access is the reflection of the slowness [54:09] >> uhhu [54:10] >> the the the [54:12] slowing down rather uh of her process to [54:15] get there and I think it's a wonderful [54:16] example because we only see the end [54:18] product and we think she skis and she's [54:20] brilliant and she's articulate and [54:22] everything for her must just go you know [54:23] fire off at you know 12 cylinders all [54:25] the Well, I know I read a quote a long [54:27] time ago from the quarterback John [54:29] Elway, the great Denver Broncos [54:31] quarterback, and he said the secret to [54:34] his incredible success was that [54:37] everything slowed down on the football [54:39] field cuz normally things are happening [54:41] in hyper speeds, right? You wonder how [54:44] can how can anybody function on He says, [54:46] I got to a level where everything was [54:48] just slowing down and I could see [54:50] exactly where things were moving. So his [54:54] brain through mastering a process, which [54:56] is what I describe in that book, is able [54:59] to literally slow things down and see [55:01] things that other people couldn't see. [55:04] I'd love your thoughts on [55:06] experience [55:08] versus report of experience and [55:11] different ways to report experience. [55:13] Here's my motivation for this question. [55:17] I think people are experiencing things, [55:20] but a lot of times they're recording it [55:22] now as they do it. [55:24] >> Yeah. [55:24] >> In order to share it with other people. [55:26] And the the motivation for that is [55:29] entirely understandable. But you look at [55:30] a concert, everyone's filming the [55:32] concert and they're sharing it with the [55:33] people who can't be there. So there's a [55:35] really nice component to it. But if [55:37] somebody, let's say, goes on a big [55:39] adventure, a long backpacking trip trip [55:41] trip in Yoseite or down to the Amazon, [55:43] some people are doing that and not [55:46] reporting it to anyone. But I think now [55:48] because of camera phones and social [55:50] media, most people are thinking about if [55:53] and how they will report the experience [55:55] they're having, if not in real time, [55:58] later. [55:59] >> Yeah. And you on the other hand, [56:02] although there are clips of you on [56:03] podcasts and so forth on social media, [56:06] we're all grateful for that. You've [56:07] chosen to do the long time scale [56:11] reporting of your adventures and [56:14] experiences. [56:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. [56:15] >> And movies are like that, too. Couple [56:18] hours, but still long form compared to [56:19] social media. And you [56:21] >> beautifully described this thing about [56:23] entering the time scale of the octopus's [56:26] life or the dog's daily experience. [56:29] And I I was thinking to myself, well, [56:31] kind of like movies I've fallen in love [56:33] with, um, concerts that transformed me, [56:36] you know, they required that I actually [56:38] just be there and not think about the [56:41] export of that experience at all. [56:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. [56:44] >> So, once again, I'm wondering, are we [56:47] limiting ourselves? Are we getting [56:48] locked into the technology that is [56:52] really limiting our experience? And what [56:54] was the value for you in doing a [56:57] long-term writing of this book? [56:59] >> Well, it was more than long-term writing [57:01] because I couldn't type. So, my left [57:05] hand is still kind of frozen. And so, I [57:07] had to handw write the entire book. You [57:11] We're talking about slowness. I had a [57:14] system of two bookstands, one next to [57:17] each other, a notebook. I would write a [57:20] story in the notebook by hand. [57:23] I would then edit it by hand, recopying [57:26] what I had written and occasionally [57:29] changing a word and then going back and [57:32] doing the same thing there and then [57:33] going back and doing it again. So I had [57:36] to like my it altered my thought [57:39] processes because I was used to typing [57:41] very fast, right? This was a whole [57:43] different layer of thinking that I had [57:45] to go through because when you're [57:47] handwriting, your thinking really has to [57:49] slow down. you have to focus very deeply [57:51] because you can't like quickly change [57:54] things right so it it created for me a [57:57] different kind of book I think that [57:59] slowness factor but part of the sublime [58:03] is getting outside the human the human [58:06] realm right [58:08] >> okay so we live in this period where we [58:12] never interact with anything that's not [58:14] human right so even if you're in the [58:17] wild you're in yuseite or thing. You're [58:20] still with your phone. You're still [58:21] navigating with your phone. You're still [58:24] recording it so people can see you. [58:26] You're immersed in the social human [58:29] world, right? And it's this little [58:31] bubble that you live in. But life is [58:33] much greater than the human. There's a [58:35] universe. There's a cosmos. There's [58:37] animals. There's landscapes. There's the [58:40] weirdness of being alive. There's time. [58:42] All these things that can you can [58:44] explore and you can alter. But if you're [58:46] so locked into the human social world, [58:48] you cannot access the sublime. Right? [58:51] And in ancient cultures, there's a lot [58:54] of things in there about our indigenous [58:56] and our ancient ancestors, cuz I'm [58:58] obsessed with that as I am with [58:59] childhood. [59:01] And for them, they they look at the [59:04] world and they see like plants coming up [59:07] out of the ground. They see enormous [59:10] mastadons and bears that are twice the [59:12] size of what bears are now. And they're [59:14] going they are obsessed with what isn't [59:17] human and that's where religion start [59:19] from and that's where spirituality [59:20] starts from is all these things that [59:23] transcend the human and how insane it is [59:26] that life dies and then reemerges out of [59:28] the ground that these large animals are [59:30] created. Okay. So part of being human is [59:34] this obsession with what isn't human. [59:37] What transcends us as a species. [59:39] fascinations with just the elements, [59:42] with the clouds, with the sky, with [59:44] everything around us that isn't just the [59:47] social world. And so when you're so [59:49] locked in and you have to climb a [59:51] mountain, I have a lot of things in [59:54] there about climbing mountains, which [59:55] can be an incredibly sublime experience [59:58] because if you think about it, you're [60:01] literally climbing up the the the the [60:03] side of something that's millions of [60:05] years old that predates humans, right? [60:08] that emerged out of the ground out of [60:10] this incredible process. You're climbing [60:12] into the sky. You're there. You're like [60:15] almost like a bird, right? You're you're [60:17] leaving the oxygen levels are changing. [60:20] Your brain is changing. Climbing a [60:22] mountain can be an incredibly sublime [60:24] experience. And mountain climbers [60:27] have some of the have reported some of [60:28] the most sublime experiences [60:30] because at every moment, particularly [60:33] rock climbing, they could die, right? [60:35] and the intensity of life and death, it [60:37] just makes it an addiction. Okay? But if [60:40] you're climbing the mountain and you're [60:41] like filming it and looking at it and [60:44] look and navigating through it, you're [60:45] not you're not experiencing the mountain [60:48] itself. So the technology is actually a [60:52] major roadblock to experiencing the [60:54] sublime. It doesn't have to be. It [60:57] doesn't have to be. You could use it as [60:59] a tool and an instrument. So I I looked [61:02] online for like things that are going on [61:05] with space and the new telescopes that [61:08] they have launched and the images from [61:09] NASA about our universe that is utterly [61:13] sublime and I can't access that [61:15] directly. I can't climb into the sky and [61:18] see these things. So I'm not totally [61:20] against technology. You can use it to [61:22] sort of mind these incredible things [61:25] that science is uncovering, but it's not [61:28] about my reporting it back to other [61:30] people. It's not about the social aspect [61:33] of the Hubble of the Ver Rubin telescope [61:35] and and you know what it means to me and [61:37] my ego and how my influ [61:41] can follow that. It's just about the [61:43] experience itself, right? So technology [61:46] can be used for the sublime if it's not [61:49] about your influencing and about the the [61:52] social element. Is it fair to say that [61:55] when we try to experience [61:59] life at the same speed that we're going [62:02] to report those experiences, something [62:04] crucial is lost. [62:07] >> Yeah. Because one of the great joys for [62:10] me in doing laboratory science which I [62:13] haven't done in a few years we shut my [62:15] lab basically in 2023 24 because my [62:18] posttos moved on and I was doing this [62:21] other podcast thing was I would spend [62:23] years looking at things down the [62:25] microscope [62:26] >> collecting data observing things and of [62:29] course the job of a scientist is to then [62:31] take those [62:33] >> observations and then put them into [62:36] photo microraph form and put them out [62:37] into the world for evaluation and [62:39] sharing. [62:40] >> Yeah. [62:40] >> But [62:41] >> the process of writing a paper is a [62:44] whole different biz going to seminars [62:46] and talking about the work. It's it's at [62:48] a completely different speed or a [62:49] completely different spatial scale. But [62:51] >> the adventure was down the microscope. [62:53] The report of the adventure was in [62:55] papers and at meetings. [62:56] >> Yeah. Yeah. [62:56] >> I never thought about the meetings or [62:58] the paper as I was doing the work. It [63:00] was like a is a totally different set of [63:02] brain circuits. And that's sort of a bit [63:04] of what you're describing here. And I [63:06] wonder, you know, our mutual friend Rick [63:08] Ruben Hill, he talks a lot about how he [63:10] encourages artists to forget about how [63:11] they're going to be perceived in order [63:13] to do their best work, which then of [63:15] course is perceived in the best way. [63:17] >> Yeah. [63:18] >> That but you have to get out of the the [63:21] delivery mode. [63:22] >> And so going to a concert and filming [63:24] yourself for the rest of the world [63:26] there, it's it's like a collision of of [63:29] brain circuits and and it's almost like [63:31] detracts from the experience. Yesterday [63:33] I was driving back from Topeka. I was [63:36] being in a in a limo chauffeered back to [63:38] my house and I'm listening to music [63:40] and I'm listening to this um recording [63:43] of of Scarati, this composer by by [63:46] Horowitz, the famous pianist. And I'm [63:49] trying to like get inside of each note [63:53] and follow the music as it flows. And [63:55] it's very difficult. My mind was [63:56] continually wandering. But as I'm going [63:59] inside the flow of the music, which [64:02] alters your experience of time, by the [64:04] way, I'm starting to see things in the [64:07] music itself and I'm thinking the [64:09] rhythms and the patterns and certain [64:12] falling of notes has this emotional [64:14] effect that's very interesting. And so [64:17] I'm thinking along with the music and [64:20] I'm inside the notes and I'm inside the [64:22] progression and I'm inside the [64:24] composer's mind who composed it. I'm [64:26] reliving his experience as he composed [64:28] the music. And so the music has this [64:32] level of experience, this level of being [64:35] inside of it that can be very powerful [64:38] because music [64:40] is utterly sublime. I have a lot of [64:42] things in there about music because [64:45] music takes us back to our preverbal [64:48] roots. Birds sing. Language probably [64:52] evolved from music itself, right? [64:55] And music itself, instrumental music [64:58] doesn't have words, but it feels like [65:00] the essence of our emotions of our [65:02] consciousness. Right? So when you're [65:05] able to enter into music and and I have [65:07] a ch an exercise where you think [65:09] musically and you follow the notes and [65:12] you follow the logic and the [65:13] progression, it's a very sublime [65:15] experience. But if you're at a concert, [65:18] first of all, it's a little harder at a [65:19] concert because the music is of a [65:20] different order, but you can still do [65:22] that. I remember I'm going to date [65:25] myself and people are going to be [65:26] laughing at me, but I would go to [65:27] Grateful Dead concerts in the 70s when I [65:30] was in college and you could still have [65:32] that that what I'm doing with Scarlotti [65:34] I would do with some of their long [65:37] instrumental pieces which were quite [65:39] sublime. [65:40] So when you're doing that, you're not [65:42] inside the music. You're you're like [65:44] recording it. You're just it's just like [65:46] this it's just like entertainment or [65:49] something to like stimulate you on this [65:51] base level. There's a way of [65:53] experiencing things where you're inside [65:56] them and not outside. And movies are the [65:59] same way. I like when I watch a movie [66:03] particularly of of a different period of [66:06] time or from the past I like to feel [66:09] like I'm inside the actual movie itself [66:11] that I'm actually can experience it as [66:14] if I am there. So when you're so [66:17] immersed in how other people are looking [66:19] at you and that your only way of of [66:23] thinking about it is in terms of how [66:24] other people are seeing it. You're not [66:26] experiencing the actual cultural moment. [66:29] And culture can and should be sublime if [66:32] you if you experience it differently. [66:35] >> And it seems that our best experiences [66:37] will always come about from being really [66:40] present to that work and experiences. I [66:42] mean, in a perhaps overly simplistic [66:45] way, going to a concert and choosing to [66:48] not merge with the performers, but [66:50] rather merge with people who aren't [66:52] there means that you are in many ways [66:54] not there. [66:55] >> Yeah. Again, I get the motivation of [66:57] people wanting to share, but it's a bit [66:59] of a gimmick and a and a heck of a trap [67:02] because ultimately like the sum total of [67:05] your life is these like experiences that [67:08] are mundane, but you can, as you point [67:11] out, you can convert those into sublime [67:13] experiences and the big stuff, the peak [67:15] experiences. I mean, those are awesome, [67:16] too. [67:17] >> And there's no reason to not report [67:19] things. But I do think that the speed of [67:21] the reporting [67:23] and the fact that it happened separate [67:25] from the experience seems very very [67:28] important. I think about a like a news [67:31] anchor. [67:32] >> I'm here at the storm and the storm is [67:33] so they're experiencing the storm but [67:35] they're also just trying to get the [67:36] message out, right? And so you can [67:38] convey something about the storm but [67:39] they're not really in the experience. [67:40] They're in the experience of reporting [67:42] it, right? But if they were to film [67:44] themselves walking through it and [67:45] getting blown around, right? And then [67:47] [clears throat] [67:48] later you you would think about how that [67:50] would that would be transmitted like [67:53] there there's like this way in which we [67:54] fractionate ourselves [67:56] >> through technology [67:57] >> which raises a question. I was thinking [67:59] this before you opted to write the book [68:01] by hand as opposed to using audio [68:05] recordings. Why was that? Because you [68:07] could have easily just sat with hands [68:09] still and and done that. [68:10] >> So in the end I filled over a hundred [68:13] notebooks with my handwritten things. [68:15] Literally you I can show you in my [68:17] garage. But at the very end when I [68:19] thought things were good enough, I would [68:21] use whisper transcription. Okay. And [68:24] then I would print it out and hand and [68:27] edit with hand again. And then finally [68:31] dictate it again one final time and edit [68:33] it with one hand. Okay. So the slowness [68:36] was was intense. But [68:41] you know this as as as a neuroscientist, [68:43] the relationship between the brain and [68:45] the hand is a very very powerful one. It [68:48] has very ancient roots. So many of the [68:51] neural pathways involve the hand and the [68:53] brain because that's where our [68:56] intelligence involved picking up things [68:58] and manipulating them and creating [69:00] tools. The relationship between the [69:02] brain and the hand is very very [69:03] powerful. [69:05] So when you handwrite, you're using the [69:09] brain differently than when you type and [69:10] look at a screen. It's a different flow [69:12] of time. Okay? And then if you just [69:15] dictate into the computer, it's even [69:18] kind of even more alienating in a way [69:21] because your hands aren't involved at [69:22] all. At least in typing, you are. And so [69:25] to me, I tried to immediately dictate [69:28] it. Something was lost. I didn't feel [69:31] like I was expressing something deep [69:33] because my hand literally has to be [69:36] involved in the creation of it. And I [69:38] would find first of all the [69:40] transcription things, you know, AI is so [69:43] sophisticated, but the transcription [69:45] things are actually quite primitive. [69:47] They don't do punctuation. [69:49] They don't exactly hear what you're [69:51] saying. So, you have to you'll have to [69:52] go back over a lot of it. It can be very [69:54] frustrating. It's not like I'm creating [69:57] oral literature. I'm not Homer. I'm not [69:59] remembering not singing about a ballad [70:01] of people that I've memorized. And so [70:04] it's like this immediate thing that's [70:06] coming out of you. Whereas writing by [70:08] hand, you have to think. You have to sit [70:11] there and ponder each movement of your [70:13] hand and the ink. I also got heavily [70:17] into ink, I have to say. So it's I'm a [70:19] fetishist because handwriting is a very [70:22] sensual experience where this isn't. And [70:25] so I I got all these fountain pens and I [70:27] buy all these different colored inks [70:30] from this company in Italy. And the [70:33] different the inks had this beautiful [70:35] kind of flow to it and a feel to it to [70:37] actually see ink on a page. So [70:40] handwriting is a kind of a sensual [70:41] experience if you go through it, right? [70:43] Like calligraphy can be a very sensual [70:45] experience. [70:47] So people would say, "Why don't you just [70:49] dictate your book, Robert? It's so [70:50] easy." But I couldn't find I couldn't. [70:52] It wasn't me. it wasn't like natural to [70:55] me and so I had to go recourse to the [70:57] handwriting aspect. [70:59] >> I have a a question and a and a perhaps [71:03] interesting tidbit to share about the [71:05] hands and handwriting. What color ink [71:07] are you? A black a blue black or a blue? [71:09] >> I had different colors. So there's this [71:13] company called Viscanti Italian company. [71:15] They make wonderful fountain pens [71:18] >> and they have this one hound fountain [71:21] called Homo sapiens which is my favorite [71:23] and they have these beautiful bottles of [71:26] ink and I have sepia which I love is a [71:29] beautiful color sepia. It's this weird [71:31] brown yellow brown for an ink. It's [71:33] magnificent. I have black. I have [71:37] turquoise [71:38] and I have red and then I also have [71:40] green but I don't use the green very [71:42] much. So I would mix up the colors [71:44] because that would each day it said look [71:47] what color do I feel like today? Oh I [71:49] feel like writing in red you know but [71:51] then I'd always end up kind of going [71:52] back to sepia because I love that sepia [71:54] color. [71:55] >> This is uh clearly being communicated [71:58] through the universe to us. Um you know [72:00] the origins of sepia is from the ink of [72:03] the cuttlefish. [72:05] >> So we worked on or had as I prefer to [72:08] say it sepia bendensis which is the [72:10] dwarf cuttlefish. So the Latin name of [72:12] the cuttlefish is actually sepia and [72:15] their ink was the original source. [72:17] >> Is the ink that color that comes out of [72:19] them? It is. [72:20] >> I mean depending on the the water [72:22] environment they're in and the lighting [72:24] under [72:26] the origin the hand. Um you may or may [72:29] not know. I learned this from my good [72:30] friend Eddie Chang that we were [72:31] discussing earlier, the chair of [72:32] neurosurgery at UCSF, one of the leading [72:34] expert neuroscientists on speech and [72:36] language and epilepsy and a a true [72:38] savant of all things. uh neuro and more. [72:43] He told me that the hand representation [72:46] in the brain isn't just close to but is [72:49] nested inside the language areas. [72:51] >> Ah [72:52] >> the Italians [72:54] >> tell us this right away. They move their [72:56] hands as they speak. And in recently [72:58] when recording my audio book, it's the [73:00] first book I've ever written and then [73:01] recording the audio book. I found that [73:02] if I didn't allow myself to move my [73:04] hands [73:05] >> and justiculate with my hands, it was [73:07] harder to inunciate properly. [73:09] Interesting. So he said, "Oh, of course, [73:11] because there's all these feedback [73:12] loops." [73:13] >> Um, and [73:16] you start to look at this across [73:17] cultures and you start to see that when [73:19] or even individuals and you see that [73:21] when people are are trying to formulate [73:23] their sentences very carefully and [73:25] punctuate them in their mind as they [73:27] speak them, their hands tend to go still [73:29] and then when they hit a sort of verbal [73:31] flow, their hands spontaneously start to [73:33] move. [73:34] >> So there's a direct linkage there. [73:36] There's no question. Also our language [73:38] reflects that I grasp an idea. There's [73:42] people have analyzed the number of words [73:44] for thinking and knowledge that have to [73:46] do with the actual grasping and the use [73:48] of the hand. [73:49] >> Amazing. [73:49] >> So I often think about this. Our [73:52] particular consciousness [73:54] has a pattern to it that is very much [73:58] constricted by language and grammar. [74:00] Right? So we have a subject and an [74:03] object, right? And most languages have [74:06] that although some don't. The subject [74:09] and the object which makes us think of [74:11] cause and effect right we think of past, [74:14] present and future. [74:17] We have those tenses. So we always are [74:19] thinking in terms of sequences. So I [74:21] have the the thought experiment in my [74:24] head of an alien form of life and an [74:27] alien form of intelligence and [74:28] consciousness [74:30] that had a different structure of [74:32] grammar that wasn't based. so much on [74:35] the hand and these these kind of [74:38] abstract concepts, what would their [74:40] language be like? It would be very [74:42] different from our own. But it makes you [74:44] realize that our language kind of [74:47] sometimes can restrict what we think and [74:49] we're always within those parameters. [74:51] But the relationship of thinking and the [74:55] hand and also vision because so many of [74:58] uh our thoughts about knowledge have to [75:01] do with seeing. Oh, I see your I I see [75:03] what you mean kind of thing. You don't [75:05] literally see, but we use visual uh [75:08] metaphors all the time and hand [75:10] metaphors. I'd like to take a quick [75:12] break and acknowledge one of our [75:14] sponsors, Element. Element is an [75:16] electrolyte drink that has everything [75:17] you need and nothing you don't. That [75:20] means the electrolytes, sodium, [75:21] magnesium, and potassium, all in the [75:23] correct ratios, but no sugar. Proper [75:25] hydration is critical for brain and body [75:28] function. Even a slight degree of [75:30] dehydration can diminish your cognitive [75:31] and physical performance. It's also [75:34] important that you get adequate [75:35] electrolytes. The electrolytes, sodium, [75:37] magnesium, and potassium are vital for [75:39] the functioning of all cells in your [75:41] body, especially your neurons or your [75:43] nerve cells. Drinking element makes it [75:45] very easy to ensure that you're getting [75:46] adequate hydration and adequate [75:48] electrolytes. My days tend to start [75:50] really fast, meaning I have to jump [75:52] right into work or right into exercise. [75:54] So, to make sure that I'm hydrated and I [75:56] have sufficient electrolytes, when I [75:58] first wake up in the morning, I drink 16 [76:00] to 32 ounces of water with an element [76:02] packet dissolved in it. I also drink [76:04] Element dissolved in water during any [76:06] kind of physical exercise that I'm [76:07] doing, especially on hot days when I'm [76:09] sweating a lot and losing water and [76:11] electrolytes. Element has a bunch of [76:13] great tasting flavors. In fact, I love [76:15] them all. I love the watermelon, the [76:16] raspberry, the citrus, and I really love [76:18] the lemonade flavor. So, if you'd like [76:20] to try Element, you can go to [76:21] drinkelement.com/huberman [76:24] to claim a free element sample pack with [76:26] any purchase. Again, that's [76:27] drinkelement.com/huberman [76:30] to claim a free sample pack. [76:32] >> I'd like to talk a little bit more about [76:33] childhood. Okay? And um I know I've [76:35] asked you this in a previous meeting, [76:37] but long ago in when I read mastery, I [76:41] was just, you know, like clubbed over [76:43] the head uh in the best possible sense [76:46] of the phrase with the [76:50] the statement that you made um that some [76:55] event early in life for each of us kind [77:00] of portends what we should or ought to [77:03] explore later in life like there's some [77:06] unique event that places some unique [77:08] capacity, curiosity, [77:11] hunger in us to go do something that is [77:14] uniquely us. No other person had that [77:17] experience and the experiences that [77:19] follow that would allow them to do that [77:22] thing. What is your suggestion for [77:24] people who want to think about what that [77:25] seed event might have been if they don't [77:27] know like like how do we know what that [77:30] thing was for us if we're like 12 years [77:33] or older? I was always clear for myself [77:35] about what that was because I was [77:37] obsessed from a very early age with [77:39] words. I just thought words themselves [77:42] are very strange and very weird that we [77:45] have these words that mean things. And I [77:47] remember I think I was in the third [77:50] grade, my teacher put up the word [77:53] carpenter and she said, "Now try and see [77:56] how many words you can form out of those [77:58] letters." [78:00] And for some reason that just excited me [78:03] so much that with these little [78:06] individual letters you could create all [78:08] these different words, right? I don't [78:10] know why. I can't explain it. It's [78:12] there's no logic behind it. [78:15] But it seemed like letters and words [78:17] were magical and that always attracted [78:19] me. I always felt a connection to knew I [78:23] had to be a writer because I had that [78:25] that weird connection to words [78:28] themselves. Not just what they meant but [78:30] the sounds of them, right? Obsessed me. [78:34] But after writing mastery, a lot of [78:36] people would come to me because it's I [78:38] talk [clears throat] about your life's [78:38] task and I also have a chapter in the [78:40] new book about this concept. Um, and [78:43] they would say, "But Robert, I don't [78:45] know what my life's task is. I'm in my [78:48] 20s. you write about it. You write about [78:49] Da Vinci, you write about all these [78:51] other people and stuff. I have no idea. [78:54] And I had to go across this barrier [78:57] because I never had that experience. I [78:59] always knew that it had to be writing. [79:01] So I had to try and understand their [79:04] perspective, which is in teaching. [79:08] Good teachers know that they know more [79:10] than their students, but they have to [79:12] put their minds in the minds of the [79:13] students who don't know enough. So you [79:16] have to kind of lower yourself into [79:17] their way of not lower but inside their [79:20] less knowledgeable experience. So I had [79:24] to go like why wouldn't they know it? [79:27] Why would they have because if you think [79:30] about your early childhood, you had [79:32] those moments, right? You knew that you [79:36] would love this. You loved kicking a [79:38] ball. I had I loved sports, right? You [79:41] knew that I loved music and sounds. I [79:44] talk a lot about how Howard Gardner and [79:46] his five frames of intelligence. You had [79:48] one of them. [79:50] But thinking deeply about their [79:52] experience, I came to realize that first [79:55] of all, they've lost a deep connection [79:58] to those childhood experience, to those [80:00] moments they forgotten about them. Why [80:02] have they forgotten about them? Maybe [80:04] they weren't as intense as mine was. But [80:07] also what happened was [80:10] all these other voices intervened, [80:12] right? Their parents told them what they [80:15] should love, what they shouldn't love. [80:16] They had to learn math and they didn't [80:18] want to learn math. The teachers told [80:20] them what they were good at. They get [80:21] funneled through this system which kind [80:24] of constrains your brain into a certain [80:26] career path. This is what you have to [80:28] learn, right? And they hear a thousand [80:31] different voices in their head and they [80:33] have no connection to what they really [80:36] love. to what Abraham Maslo calls your [80:38] impulse voices. Voices inside of you [80:41] that you're that are natural, that are [80:43] physiological inside of you. They don't [80:46] hear it anymore. And so I had to kind of [80:48] realize that we have to cut out all of [80:51] those voices. And I would go through [80:53] this process and I compared it to like [80:56] archaeology. We were digging and digging [80:58] and digging into their childhood for [81:00] little fossils of information. I would [81:03] kind of go through a process of can you [81:06] remember certain moments in your early [81:08] what's what are your earliest childhood [81:10] memories? What are memories of things [81:12] that were very exciting to you? We [81:14] literally had to go back into their [81:16] childhood to uncover those moments where [81:19] something sparked and they were excited [81:22] not because their parents told them but [81:24] because it was them. And for me, it's a [81:27] hard concept to understand because I [81:28] always had that. But people lose touch [81:31] with what they act, what their own [81:33] bodies, what their own impulses, their [81:35] own desires are telling them. And so we [81:38] would cut through all of the other [81:39] noise. [81:41] I would also go through this process of [81:44] you're in your 20s. What is it that you [81:48] hate? What repels you? What repulses [81:51] you? For me, [81:54] I hated working for other people. I'll [81:57] just lay it out straight. I hated the [81:59] egos. I hated the political games. I had [82:01] people wasn't about results. It was [82:04] about currying up to the boss and how [82:07] good you were with the charming stuff. I [82:09] hated it. I never lasted more than 11 [82:11] months at any single job in my entire [82:13] life. So, knowing that I could not work [82:17] for other people, the only thing I could [82:19] do was write books. It's the only [82:21] profession for me where I had didn't [82:24] have a boss essentially. I mean, you [82:26] kind of have a boss, but anyway, what is [82:29] it that you hate? What are the things [82:30] that you can't do that when you do they [82:32] just feel wrong? And a lot of it is [82:37] when you were frustrated. [82:40] That's the that's a key moment in your [82:42] life. What is frustrating to you? Listen [82:45] to that voice because it's it's it's [82:47] part of that that life's task that that [82:50] inner voice that's talking to you saying [82:52] this isn't you. This doesn't fit you. [82:55] Listen to it and don't just see [82:57] frustration. See something positive. [83:00] It's telling you something about what [83:02] you're about how you've taken a wrong [83:04] path in life. It's not easy. And I [83:08] sometimes spend days with these people [83:10] and and weeks trying to help them. But [83:12] I've had had some success. [83:14] But it takes time. You know, you have to [83:17] be willing to commit to the time and you [83:19] have to journal and you have to write [83:21] about yourself and you have to go deep [83:23] into your memories. You have to think [83:24] about your childhood and you have to go [83:26] back into those moments that had nothing [83:28] to do with what other people were [83:30] telling you. [83:31] >> I think um I've heard two different [83:33] notions about how great ideas and [83:35] insights come to us. Uh one is in the [83:38] doing. you know, we're drilling, [83:40] drilling, lathing, lathing away at ideas [83:42] or a physical thing. And [83:44] >> and the other is that they come to us [83:46] spontaneously [83:48] >> away from the attempt to like get to an [83:50] answer you like in the shower [83:52] >> or while running or doing something. And [83:54] I I wonder for you uh has that process [83:57] of insight and epiphany changed as when [84:01] comparing before as to um after your [84:04] stroke? I mean, you're still fairly [84:05] mobile. You're clearly very articulate, [84:08] but I wonder are your are your ideas [84:10] coming in at a different rate or in [84:12] different places because of the changes [84:15] in your physical life? [84:16] >> I'll tell you what happened and it's [84:18] very interesting. I noticed after my [84:21] stroke that I was more emotional. [84:24] I had less control over my emotions. I [84:27] would suddenly start crying and I don't [84:28] really know why I was crying. I would [84:30] suddenly feel mo kind of a wave of [84:33] ecstasy. Why is it happening to me? And [84:36] then I did a little bit of research and [84:38] you would know more about this, but [84:40] stroke the right side of the brain [84:42] affecting the right side of the brain [84:43] often has that effect on stroke victims. [84:46] The left side is language and logic and [84:49] and reasoning powers. The right side and [84:52] these there's a lot of cliches involved [84:54] in the left right things and I [84:56] understand that but the right is is a [84:58] more kind of holistic and more kind of [85:00] emotional part of the brain. And so I [85:05] was feeling on a deeper level. I was [85:08] also feeling [85:10] like so much more empathy for people, [85:13] right? Like I would see other people who [85:16] were handicapped who were still in a [85:18] wheelchair and I would like almost want [85:19] to cry and I would almost like damn it, [85:21] I understand your weakness. I understand [85:24] the [snorts] feeling of helplessness. [85:26] So my brain shifted into something more [85:30] emotional. I saw a quote from the poet [85:33] John Keats, one of my favorite poets, [85:35] and it said, "Oh, to have a life of [85:37] sensations instead of thoughts." And so [85:41] you can think emotionally, you can think [85:44] through sensations, you can empathize, [85:46] you can feel your way into things. And [85:48] it's a different form of thinking. [85:51] And it made me realize how much your [85:54] brain and the structure of it alters how [85:57] you think and how you relate to the [85:59] world. So something I had no control [86:02] over, a stroke, altered me in this weird [86:05] way. It made me more emotional. So it [86:08] makes you realize how the brain so much [86:10] controls who you are and how you [86:12] experience life. And so I had this much [86:15] more kind of intuitive feel for the [86:18] subject. The sublime was no longer an [86:21] intellectual thing like it would have [86:22] been 20 years ago. It was a feeling [86:25] inside of me. And when I wrote a a [86:27] story, it would resonate inside of me [86:30] and I knew that it was right. And if it [86:31] felt too intellectual, I said, "This [86:34] isn't working for me." So would you say [86:37] your stroke sort of freed you up to some [86:39] extent to allow certain things to come [86:42] out that like, you know, maybe before [86:45] you would have self-edited? [86:47] >> I think so. And I think um [86:52] I don't know. Uh it's going to sound woo [86:54] woo. It's going to sound like I've I've [86:56] gone off the deep edge, but it felt like [87:00] um the stroke happened for a purpose, [87:03] >> right? [87:04] And to me, the way I look at it is if I [87:08] see it as a curse, I become a bitter [87:12] person and I just shrivel up. But if I [87:14] see it as a blessing, it's a much [87:17] different experience. And the blessing [87:19] was that I had to find the sublime in [87:23] the smallest details. [87:25] readers aren't going to be able to trek [87:28] through the Gobi Desert. They're not [87:29] going to be able, a lot of them swim [87:31] with dolphins. They can't have these [87:33] adventures. But everyone lives in a [87:36] house in a room. We all feel kind of [87:38] constricted. I could now make bring the [87:40] sublime to the level of your daily [87:42] experience because I compared myself the [87:47] image that came to me when I sat in my [87:48] little office trying to write the book [87:50] was that I was a bird in a cage, right? [87:53] I used to be flying around and having [87:56] all this fun and now I was in a cage and [87:58] I had to accommodate myself to a cage [88:00] and I had to kind of find a way to sing [88:03] inside my cage. And so a lot of people [88:06] are like that. They don't have access. [88:09] They don't live in mansions. They don't [88:11] have magnificent gardens. They live in [88:14] small apartments. [88:16] And I don't want to give this feeling [88:18] like the sublime is some elite [88:20] experience that that only rich people [88:22] can have. The point of the book is that [88:26] the need for a transcendent experiences [88:28] which what the sublime is about in many [88:30] ways is as important a need to humans as [88:34] clothing as shelter as companionship as [88:36] anything else. It's deeply deeply [88:38] embedded in our nature. Right? So I [88:41] wanted to feel like everybody can have [88:43] access to it. So, if a stroke victim [88:47] whose life is so limited can find their [88:49] way to the sublime, then that means that [88:51] anybody can find their way. And that's [88:53] how I wanted to write the book. [88:55] >> What I'm about to ask is somewhat of a [88:56] merge between some of your prior books, [88:58] >> Sure. [88:59] >> about power, about personalities, [89:02] about performers, [89:04] >> and [89:05] >> the newest book coming out soon about [89:07] the sublime. [89:09] >> And [89:11] in order to try and make this succinct, [89:13] I'll just do this in bullet points. [89:14] Yeah, we've had a lot of discussions on [89:16] this podcast about mitochondria, [89:19] which are the powerhouse of the cell and [89:21] energy and so forth. And one guest in [89:23] particular, Martin Bard, who's an expert [89:25] in mitochondria, talked about directing [89:28] mitochondrial energy toward particular [89:30] endeavors. Focus is what creates our [89:33] lives and us. Yeah. People's experience [89:36] of us and our experiences. [89:40] >> There are these people throughout [89:41] history who seem to have [89:44] so much energy and to ex focus that [89:47] energy so intensely [89:50] and do incredible things in art and you [89:54] know oration you know like we might call [89:57] this like charisma. [89:58] >> Yeah. [89:59] >> And they often died early. [90:01] >> Yeah. [90:01] >> And I' I've been really intrigued by [90:03] this. like maybe they their energy was [90:05] packed in space and time and and focus [90:08] into such a like a dense beam that they [90:12] couldn't go on a long time, right? Uh [90:15] and I don't this is really woo what I'm [90:17] about to ask but in researching this and [90:20] writing uh the law of the sublime [90:23] >> did you ever think about like what was [90:26] the experience of some of the people [90:27] that you had written about earlier [90:30] >> like the intense life of somebody like [90:32] 50 Cent the intense life of some of the [90:34] people you wrote about in um the laws of [90:36] seduction who are these extreme examples [90:39] of life energy [90:41] >> funneled through a particular [90:43] personality and style. [90:44] And many of whom I mean 50 is still [90:47] around but many of whom are [90:50] >> they die early. [90:51] >> Yeah. [90:52] >> Did that ever come to you as as an idea [90:54] like this isn't the slowpaced life. [90:57] These are people that [90:58] >> I see [90:59] >> burn hot make huge contributions [91:02] and flame goes out. [91:05] >> The sublime is often like an experience [91:07] of intensity. [91:09] >> Right? So concentrated in a particular [91:12] moment is a very intense experience like [91:14] a candle that's kind of burning. 50 [91:17] himself, he had a near-death experience [91:21] and in the last chapter of the book I do [91:23] I talked with I did with him I call it [91:26] the sublime and his sort of I feel like [91:29] his near-death experiences completely [91:32] altered him and although we see this [91:34] figure of this entrepreneur [91:37] and this kind of thug and this guy with [91:39] beefs and he's always putting people [91:41] down that'd be the last thing you'd [91:43] think of as sublime but I know 50 I was [91:46] with him. I spent six months by his [91:49] side. I studied him deeply and his [91:52] closeness to death altered him and is he [91:56] actually has great access to that kind [91:58] of energy that came from his near-death [92:00] experience. [92:02] Now, other people whose sense of power [92:06] is only about the social, I don't really [92:10] feel like a sense of the sublime. But if [92:14] you're like a great writer or you're a [92:15] scientist like Albert Einstein, he [92:17] didn't die young. I don't think he did. [92:19] >> No. And biologists on average tend to [92:22] have good long careers. Mathematicians [92:24] have briefer careers. [92:26] >> Well, the mathematicians are interesting [92:28] because it's a known fact that the [92:30] greatest math discoveries are in your [92:32] 20s and early 30s and then it just kind [92:34] of dries up. [92:35] >> Yeah. I think the Fields Medal can only [92:36] be given to people I think it's 40 years [92:38] and younger. [92:39] >> Yeah. Biology is a more cumulative type [92:42] career. Yeah. You have long careers that [92:45] that are successful along the way and [92:46] and accumulate a rich amount of [92:49] knowledge. Yeah. Math is is uh it's a [92:52] quick burn. I [92:52] >> I wonder why. It's very weird like that. [92:55] >> I don't know. I mean, I'm intrigued by [92:56] the fact that um child prodigies [92:59] >> Yeah. [92:59] >> their peers eventually catch up to them. [93:01] >> Uhhuh. [93:02] >> People catch up. Like with mastery, [93:04] people who go deep, deep into a field [93:06] and then burn themselves out. The [93:08] sublimity is in the sense of flow that [93:10] they have. So the sublime, as I say, is [93:14] kind of a transcendent experience. [93:16] You're getting outside of your ego. [93:17] You're getting outside the narrowness of [93:19] your own little limited world and you're [93:22] experience something wider. Right? When [93:25] you study chess deeply or or Einstein [93:29] with the theory of relativity or or [93:31] whatever the field is, painting or [93:33] whatever, you have these moments of [93:35] intense flow where you and the thing [93:38] that you're creating are one. You're [93:40] outside of yourself. It's almost like an [93:42] outer body experience, right? And I talk [93:45] in the book about the feeling of [93:46] inspiration, [93:48] which is something that goes back [93:50] thousands of years and people report it [93:52] and I've experienced it myself where [93:54] ideas seem to be coming to you from the [93:56] outside. You can't explain why this [93:58] epiphany happened. There's no logic, [94:01] there's no order to it. It's almost as [94:03] if somebody is breathing inside of you, [94:05] which is the origin of the word inspired [94:07] to breathe into something. Okay? So [94:11] when you're so deeply immersed in a [94:13] subject, [94:15] you're kind of having this kind of [94:17] moment of flow and this kind of [94:18] transcendent experience and ideas are [94:20] coming to you from the outside and you [94:22] don't even know why or how and it is [94:25] utterly sublime. So that is a connection [94:28] between some of my earlier work and the [94:30] later work. But a lot of these kind of [94:34] master manipulators like an autobismark [94:37] or like some of the chazari bora [94:42] I can't really find anything sublime in [94:44] their experience. I try to write about [94:47] the dark side of human nature in the [94:49] sublime book and how we can see [94:52] something sublime in it but kind of the [94:55] dark side of the sublime. There's [94:57] something sublimely evil in the world, [95:00] right? But that's that's really kind of [95:03] another story. But the feeling when [95:06] you're playing the piano and you feel [95:09] like you and the keyboard are one or [95:11] you're playing chess and you and the [95:14] chessboard are one is a is a totally [95:16] sublime moment. Totally sublime [95:18] experience. So mastery of all my books [95:21] is the one that's closest to the [95:23] sublime. I'd like to take a quick break [95:25] and acknowledge our sponsor function. [95:28] Function provides over 160 advanced lab [95:31] tests to give you a clear snapshot of [95:33] your bodily health. This snapshot gives [95:35] you insights into your heart health, [95:36] your hormone health, autoimmune [95:38] function, nutrient levels, and much [95:40] more. They've also recently added access [95:42] to advanced MRI and CT scans. 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[97:02] Several times you've said that accessing [97:04] the sublime is about relating as a human [97:07] to things that are not human. [97:10] >> Yeah. Is there any way to access the [97:12] sublime through human human interaction? [97:14] >> Yes, most definitely. So I have a [97:16] chapter called the love sublime and it's [97:19] not the art of seduction and people are [97:20] going Robert have you changed and I go [97:22] well no seduction is a book in itself [97:25] but love is something different and so I [97:29] talk about the sense of falling so [97:32] deeply in love with another human being [97:35] that you lose a sense of your own ego. [97:38] And the chapter is called escape the [97:40] prison of the ego, the love sublime. [97:44] And the idea is the human being is two [97:47] sides to us. We're physical. We have an [97:49] animal side, but we have something else. [97:52] And I would I would hate to use the [97:53] word, but I would say it's spiritual, [97:55] right? And so if the only interest in in [97:59] the other person is about sex, [98:02] there's some level of satisfaction to [98:03] it, but there's also an emptiness that [98:05] goes with it, right? But if it's just [98:08] about religion and about, you know, [98:10] going to church or whatever, there's [98:13] nothing physical in it and it doesn't [98:15] feel so deeply human. It's just the [98:17] spiritual. But I'm a human being. I have [98:18] a body. I have sexual desires. I have [98:21] all these other things going on inside [98:23] of me that religion has nothing to do [98:24] with. Love is an area where you can [98:28] combine the physical and the spiritual [98:30] into something very, very, very [98:32] profound. And I say it's kind of the [98:35] ultimate human experience that we can [98:38] have because your physical attraction to [98:41] someone turns into something spiritual. [98:45] People are objects that we cannot see [98:48] inside of them. But in love that object [98:51] becomes a subject. They become something [98:53] that's inside of them. You can feel [98:55] their experience. They become a part of [98:56] you. Now you people were wondering well [98:59] that how often does that ever happen? [99:01] You know that doesn't sound like my [99:02] experience. What I try to explain is the [99:05] metaphor we use is falling in love. And [99:08] it's very eloquent. So it's literally a [99:11] sense of falling. [99:13] And falling has an element of fear, [99:15] right? That's what you have to [99:17] understand. Love isn't about comfort and [99:19] security and and Russell Stover [99:22] chocolates and and handing out red roses [99:24] and Valentine's. There's something dark [99:27] and terrifying about it because you're [99:29] falling. You're letting go of your [99:31] defenses and you're being vulnerable [99:34] like an animal that's exposing its [99:36] belly. And that's a frightening [99:37] experience. And what happens to people [99:39] is as you start falling, you stop and [99:41] you go, I don't completely trust this [99:44] person. I'm becoming vulnerable. And if [99:48] I become vulnerable, this isn't [99:49] conscious, it's unconsciously, they can [99:51] hurt me. They could abandon me. And the [99:55] feeling of abandonment is like perhaps [99:56] the most primal horrible emotion for a [99:59] human to have. It goes back to our early [100:01] early childhood experiences, right? And [100:04] so we stop falling and we start going, [100:07] I'm not so sure about that. Maybe they [100:09] don't love me as much or maybe I can't [100:10] trust them. And as you go through that [100:13] process, the other person senses it in a [100:15] very primal way as well and they stop [100:18] falling because they can feel that [100:20] you're not following along with them. If [100:22] you fell completely and you lost your [100:24] defenses, the other person would be [100:26] invited to fall along with you. And so [100:29] the reason you've never experienced in [100:31] your life is you don't want to be [100:33] vulnerable. And that's very natural in [100:36] the modern world because our life is [100:39] harsh and there's so many intrusive [100:41] things going on. You want to defend [100:43] yourself. I'm trying to tell young [100:45] people in particular that you live in a [100:48] culture that does not want you to be in [100:51] love with someone. [100:52] >> They demean love. They demean the aspect [100:55] of it. They think of it sentimental and [100:57] old-fashioned. The concept of love that [100:59] I'm bringing out right now. And I want [101:01] to tell you that the act of loving a [101:04] person and letting go of all your [101:05] defenses is a form of rebellion against [101:08] the ugliness in this world. You're [101:10] you're doing something different. You're [101:12] rebelling against all the narcissism and [101:15] all the defensiveness and all the closed [101:17] off elements in our culture and you're [101:20] saying you to that culture. I'm [101:21] going to fall in love with a single [101:23] individual and it's going to be an [101:25] incredible transcendent sublime [101:28] experience. I want to bring that back [101:30] into the culture because [101:33] in the 13th century we had this uh this [101:37] new thing called courtly love, right? [101:40] And it's where our whole notions of [101:42] western love came from. Right? Trouidor [101:45] is writing about it. And the sense of [101:48] love was a physical and a spiritual [101:50] experience. And it was kind of [101:52] sacrilegious because only Christ should [101:54] be a spiritual experience. So there was [101:56] something very kind of rebellious about [101:58] this idea that loving a man or a woman [102:02] could actually be a spiritual [102:04] experience. [102:05] I'm hoping in that chapter to bring back [102:07] that value particularly among young [102:09] people because they're so afraid of [102:12] being vulnerable. They're so afraid of [102:14] being hurt. And being heard is okay. [102:17] It's a very important human emotion to [102:19] go through. Rejection and feeling hurt [102:22] is actually an experience that will grow [102:24] you in a way. And never allowing that [102:27] falling process to occur [102:29] is I don't know you're going to miss [102:31] something very deep in life. It does [102:34] seem that people are in a very [102:35] self-protective mode these days. Part of [102:38] me wants to say it's because of the need [102:41] for every experience including love to [102:44] be reported on [102:46] >> you go back to that but I think it's [102:47] true. [102:48] >> Yeah. You know like that people are [102:49] going to have to post it and it's going [102:51] to have to be shared. Actually, I found [102:52] recently a a friend got married. Uh [102:55] we're not real close, but um in a really [102:58] stealth way, just like it, you know, and [103:00] I wasn't close enough to them to be [103:02] invited. And I was like, that's pretty [103:06] awesome. [103:07] >> They just like went and got married with [103:08] the closest people. [103:10] >> Yeah. [103:10] >> Completely stealth. [103:11] >> Yeah. [103:12] >> This is a public facing person. Nobody [103:14] knows it. [103:14] >> Yeah. [103:15] >> And the reason I think it's awesome is [103:17] because it means it was just for them. [103:20] >> Yeah. Yeah. and uh you know, and they're [103:22] early in the relationship, but like [103:24] that's that's pretty darn cool as [103:26] opposed to the need to project it out to [103:28] the world and tell everybody. And uh [103:30] like that's [103:31] >> I have this I call it the this demon. [103:34] It's inside of you. It's a voice that's [103:36] constantly telling you to mistrust the [103:39] other person [103:40] >> and to feel like something is wrong in [103:42] the relationship. It's a demon inside of [103:44] you that's speaking to you. And a lot of [103:46] it is social. your friends will tell you [103:49] will fill you with doubts about the [103:50] other person. It's not cool to be so [103:53] involved with another person. You're [103:55] being egotistical. You're cutting [103:56] yourself off. [103:58] >> You're going to hear these voices. And [103:59] that's what I meant about the culture is [104:01] kind of against this whole thing. And so [104:04] the social element is actually playing a [104:07] very large part in the fact that you [104:09] don't want to make a fool of yourself. [104:11] for instance, you want people to think [104:13] that you're cool, that you know, you you [104:16] can sleep with many different women, [104:17] that you're that you're not such a a [104:19] soop, you know, you don't you're not [104:21] gullible kind of thing. And so, it's a [104:23] kind of a cynicism and a hardness that I [104:27] I find very dangerous because [104:30] the sublime is kind of letting go of [104:32] things. And it's almost like softening [104:34] yourself to the world and letting the [104:36] world enter into you and kind of [104:40] transport you. And that's what this kind [104:42] of love sublime is inviting you into. [104:45] Well, and the incel movement is the [104:47] ultimate extreme of of this. Although [104:50] now large part because of recent events, [104:52] we're also seeing something kind of [104:55] analogous to the incel movement on the [104:58] female side. [104:59] >> For sure. [104:59] >> A lot a lot of [105:00] >> they have a name for it. I can't [105:02] remember what it is, but yeah. [105:03] >> Yeah. Yeah. This uh I don't want to go [105:06] down the socopolitical uh rabbit hole, [105:09] but so there's a big divide right now [105:11] that is really about lack of trust. [105:13] >> Yeah. [105:14] >> Love is been kind of relegated to the [105:17] the uh idiots path. [105:19] >> Yeah. Yeah. [105:19] >> I don't believe that, but that's [105:21] certainly what it seems like out there. [105:23] just addressing the Andrew Tate kind of [105:27] experience of the world and and sort of [105:30] the alienation from the opposite sex and [105:32] seeing them as kind of the enemy [105:35] is is a very troubling thing. And what [105:38] it is is it's like a fear of your own [105:41] self because every man has a feminine [105:45] side to him unavoidably. And why? [105:49] Because our closest relationship as a [105:52] baby was with our mother, a female, [105:55] right? And we internalize her voice. We [105:59] internalize her energy very deeply in a [106:01] way you can't even remember. And our [106:04] attractions to women are very much [106:06] impressed upon us by our relationship to [106:08] our mother. We were helpless for God's [106:10] sake. And a woman was dominating our [106:13] lives. We were depended on her. Right? [106:17] So imprinted in you besides the fact [106:18] that you as a man have a fair amount of [106:21] estrogen in you as well. There is a [106:24] female component to your psyche and [106:27] women have the same thing. There's a [106:28] masculine side to their psyche. And when [106:31] you split it off and the and women are [106:34] the enemy, men are the enemy. You're [106:36] actually you are the enemy of yourself. [106:39] You are actually denying something of [106:41] deep about your own nature. I'm not [106:44] trying to say anything against [106:46] homosexual relationships, please don't [106:47] get me wrong. But the idea of a man and [106:51] a woman, you're bringing together your [106:54] feminine side and their masculine side [106:56] and you're merging it. And there's [106:58] something kind of complete and and [107:01] wondrous about it. It is this kind of [107:03] you're opening yourself to your own [107:05] nature. And when you're angry at the [107:08] other sex, you're actually angry at [107:10] yourself in a deep way. are afraid of [107:13] the feminine that is deeply embedded [107:15] inside of you. [107:17] >> You've sort of touched on um [107:20] spirituality and religion and notions of [107:22] God. I think any conversation about the [107:24] sublime [107:26] at least this conversation I feel like [107:29] would be incomplete if we didn't sort of [107:32] uh address that. that for many people, [107:34] not all, but for many people, a literal [107:39] love relationship where they love God [107:42] and they feel that God loves them is a [107:44] is a profoundly important part of their [107:47] life experience. It's not just [107:49] consoling, but it it really gives them [107:51] access to um levels of perception and [107:54] experience that are irreplaceable by [107:57] humans. So, I'll just say it directly. I [107:58] don't get the sense that you're a [107:59] religious person. And you can correct me [108:00] if that's wrong, but everything you [108:02] said, you know, accessing the sublime is [108:04] about the relationship to the non-human. [108:07] Even the pain and pleasure piece like [108:09] the, you know, the depictions of Christ [108:10] on the cross is a that, you know, is a [108:13] painful image, but then there are these [108:14] loving images of that's Christianity. [108:17] But you get the idea. So where does the [108:20] concept and for you the experience of [108:22] spirituality, [108:24] religion, and God match up with the [108:27] sublime? Where does it not square with [108:29] your own experience? [108:31] >> I don't know. I it's it's it's it's a [108:34] very complex issue. Um so there are [108:37] different forms of religion. In [108:40] Buddhism, there really isn't a concept [108:42] of a higher being. It's that you [108:44] yourself are are Buddha. Buddha is mind [108:48] and mind is Buddhist. So it's inside of [108:50] you kind of thing. And there's some [108:52] elements of Christianity that way. But [108:56] when I look at the earliest religions, [108:59] indigenous religions and spirituality in [109:02] the pagan world, because I have a [109:03] chapter on pagan religion in in the [109:05] book, [109:07] I say that this need to feel transcended [109:11] to feel connected to something higher [109:13] than the individual life is deeply [109:17] deeply sublime. It's a deep human need. [109:20] Okay? And so why do we have this need [109:25] for belief in something higher than [109:27] ourselves? It's because we're aware of [109:29] our death. We're aware of our mortality [109:33] unlike any other animal that we know of. [109:35] Animals intuit it the moment that [109:37] they're going to die, but they don't [109:39] think about it. We have the ability to [109:41] think about our death, and it cripples [109:43] us. If I'm going to die, why write a [109:46] book? Why bo why spend all these years [109:49] doing things? it's going to cancel [109:51] everything out. There's no meaning or [109:52] purpose to my life. [109:55] So, our awareness of death makes us go [109:57] search of something higher, of something [109:59] a deeper and deeper need inside of us. [110:02] And religion [110:05] for centuries played a huge huge role in [110:08] satisfying that need. And it was a very [110:11] important need and it kept to some [110:14] degree a level of sanity among humans. [110:17] And then in the 18th century [110:21] it was that we can pretty much pinpoint [110:23] it is when religion really started to [110:25] fade in western experience at least [110:27] right with the enlightenment and and [110:31] certain philosophers and the birth of [110:33] science and then the industrial [110:34] revolution and the sense of God faded [110:38] from our experience. People are still [110:40] religious today. But this sense of it [110:42] being a living presence that was with [110:44] you every if you study western [110:47] civilization in the 14th century, God [110:49] was a part of everything that you [110:50] thought and did. Everything you saw, [110:53] every food that you ate, every element [110:54] of life was embedded in the sacred. [110:57] Right? We humans lost that. And then in [111:00] the 19th century, the industrial [111:03] revolution happened. science. The world [111:06] is changing and people started to rebel [111:09] against that. They were a frightened of [111:11] it and there was like the romantic [111:13] movement and that is when the word [111:15] sublime came into our language and [111:17] became very popular. The romantic poets [111:20] popular and philosophers popularized the [111:22] world sublime. So my point is is that [111:26] we've reached this point where I believe [111:29] although there are a lot of religious [111:31] people the really deep sense of [111:33] spirituality the really deep sense of [111:35] something larger than you that you lives [111:39] inside of you that you are a part of and [111:41] that is guiding your life is lost and [111:44] with it a very very important part of [111:46] our life is lost. Religion was an anchor [111:50] in our lives and now it's gone. Now, I'm [111:53] not saying that I'm a believer. I'm just [111:55] saying I'm just noting this phenomenon. [111:58] And I feel like the loss of religion, [112:01] the loss of a sense of something [112:03] transcended is what is partially making [112:05] us insane right now. [112:08] I look at the world and I feel like it's [112:10] a mad house. People are just going [112:12] berserk. They're so disconnected from [112:15] their bodies, from their lives, from [112:17] from everything, from their environment. [112:20] And so the loss of God, the death of [112:23] God, the death of religion was a very [112:27] very painful moment in our history and [112:29] in our psyche. [112:31] And in some ways getting back to a kind [112:35] of a transcendent experience is is in [112:37] some ways can can solve this can help us [112:40] can get us back to something very a very [112:43] elemental need in us. And in an odd way, [112:47] I find that the discoveries of science [112:51] have a very deep kind of spiritual [112:53] component that we're learning about the [112:55] human brain is insane. What the, you [112:59] know, I I'm not saying it was a creator [113:02] about it, but there's something [113:04] absolutely transcendent about studying [113:06] the human brain. Learning about the [113:08] cosmos, learning about the big bang [113:11] is to me a it's like a spiritual [113:14] experience. And so we can recover some [113:17] of that in the modern world. We don't [113:19] necessarily have to go back to organized [113:22] religion, but a sense of feeling like we [113:24] are part of something much larger than [113:26] our individual lives is an actual [113:29] critical component to our experience. [113:32] I really appreciate those thoughts and [113:34] insights. I I was thinking about your [113:37] book, The Law of the Sublime, as a [113:39] portal into richer experience. I I [113:41] wasn't thinking about the macro there. [113:44] Were you thinking about the sort of [113:46] macro offering and hope for the book to [113:48] have that impact as you wrote it or is [113:50] that cuz you wrote it across many years, [113:53] seven years you said, and so it sort of [113:55] happened in parallel with with the uh [113:57] with the the maddening of madness taking [114:00] over the world. [114:01] >> It was always in the back of my mind, [114:02] but it's a grandiose ambition. And so I [114:04] don't want to be grandiose [114:06] but I tell you recently I saw a film [114:10] that I love by this director Pelolini [114:13] Italian director and it was called the [114:15] gospel according to St. Matthew and [114:18] literally Pasolini who was a homosexual [114:21] Marxist and was pretty much an atheist. [114:24] He grew up in Italian Catholic culture. [114:28] He kind of fell in love with the idea of [114:30] Christ and he did a film [114:34] literally recreating the gospel [114:36] according to Matthew, the book of [114:38] Matthew in the New Testament. He uses [114:40] all of the words from that chapter and [114:43] he use and he chronologically goes [114:44] through all of the experiences of Christ [114:47] and he uses non-professional actors. The [114:49] guy who plays Christ is like a [114:52] 19-year-old Spanish student of [114:53] mathematics. He just plucked him out, [114:55] right? And the movie is is actually a [114:59] very spiritual experience because it [115:01] literally feels like you're there and [115:04] you can literally understand where it [115:06] comes from. I was raised Jewish, but [115:09] when you read the New Testament, it's [115:11] beautiful and the ideas in it are [115:14] beautiful. So, I went back and I reread [115:17] the book of Matthew. [115:19] And I'm going, how can a a philosophy [115:22] that is so much about love? And there's [115:24] an expressions in there where somebody [115:27] asks, well, um, should I love my [115:30] neighbor? And Christ says, "Anybody can [115:32] love your neighbor. What you need to [115:34] love is the person who's not your [115:35] neighbor. You need to love the person [115:37] furthest away from your experience, the [115:39] marginalized, the people that normally [115:41] are hated." How can a religion that [115:43] expresses that end up now being this [115:46] kind of philosophy of division and [115:49] hatred and marginalizing and [115:51] polarization and and victimization? [115:55] How is it that we take something and [115:56] turn it into its opposite is something [115:59] maybe I'll write about in another book [116:01] because it's a phenomenon that [116:03] fascinates me. I don't claim to know the [116:07] answer deeply, but my reflexive response [116:10] is by taking something that's not of [116:12] humans and humans contorting it, [116:16] perverting it into something that's of [116:18] them. [116:18] >> Yeah. [116:19] >> Right. You know, and I think perverted [116:21] is the operative word there, right? You [116:23] know, it's I think [116:25] >> stolen spirituality. It's manipulated. [116:28] in it. Is it fair to say that one of the [116:30] major barriers to the sublime is [116:34] focusing on things that are of humans [116:37] too much? I mean, humans do incredible [116:39] things, but [116:41] >> um and is it then fair to say that maybe [116:44] the world's losing its mind because we [116:47] have too much awareness of what other [116:48] humans are doing all the time? [116:50] >> Yeah. [116:50] >> And it's blocking our awareness of all [116:52] the other stuff around us. I was reading [116:55] the newspaper this morning um which I do [116:57] every morning and there was two articles [116:59] in there. One was [117:02] they're beginning to alter their idea of [117:04] where alien life could could evolve. [117:07] There are these planets out there that [117:09] are wrote that are uh I think they call [117:11] it K7 or something. I don't know. [117:14] They're um around a star that is much [117:17] larger than our sun and that therefore [117:20] burns rather more slowly [117:23] and they're perfectly round. They're not [117:26] they're not marked by all these um [117:29] meteors that would have hit planet [117:30] Earth. And because they're a perfect [117:33] distance from the sun, they probably [117:35] have water and probably life forms could [117:38] evolve on these planets. And they were [117:39] calling it it would be like a paradise [117:42] of evolution. [117:43] I I can't remember the specifics of why [117:45] they say that, but it would be an [117:48] environment much more conducive to life [117:51] than planet Earth. And it was [117:52] speculating [117:54] it took us almost 4 billion years to [117:57] evolve intelligent life on planet Earth. [117:59] And that's probably why we haven't [118:01] encountered other alien intelligent life [118:03] forms because it takes so long to [118:05] develop, right? But these planets, their [118:08] star won't burn out. They've probably [118:10] been around much longer. they probably [118:11] could be intelligent life, right? I'm [118:14] thinking that's one article in the [118:16] paper. People should be like exploding [118:19] over that thought because not what it [118:21] does is it makes you realize our own [118:24] planet and how weird it is that life [118:27] evolved on it and it was a very [118:28] precarious experiment. It almost never [118:30] happened. So, it makes you realize how [118:34] precarious life is on planet Earth. The [118:37] Arthur article I read was about [118:39] dinosaurs and this fossil that was [118:41] discovered in China of an early bird. [118:44] It's the most preserved fossil of a of a [118:47] bird in the dinosaur era because what is [118:50] the relation? Birds are evolved from [118:52] dinosaurs. We know that. But there were [118:55] also flying terasaurs. There were flying [118:58] reptiles that weren't that didn't evolve [119:01] that weren't dinosaurs. Right? And I'm [119:04] thinking they were explaining how [119:06] beautiful the the fly, how they took to [119:09] flight and the different forms of flight [119:11] that occurred. Thinking, my god, on our [119:14] planet, [119:16] just imagine what that life was like [119:18] back then. How insane it was that there [119:20] were dinosaurs. How insane it was. My [119:23] point is, we could be immersing [119:26] ourselves in all of these insane things [119:28] that science is revealing to us. It [119:30] could literally alter our minds and our [119:33] relationship to people, to life. When [119:35] you realize that life was this thin [119:38] experiment that almost never happened. [119:41] It alters how you look at things, right? [119:44] So [119:45] yeah, we have to get outside the human, [119:48] but scientists are the ones who are [119:49] uncovering it. Humans are this insane [119:54] creature that is able to uncover the [119:57] secrets of the universe. Right? So in [120:00] essence I try and say in the book we are [120:02] sublime that we can do that that we can [120:04] undercover what is not human and the [120:07] laws of the universe and things going [120:09] on. So it's not like the human is this [120:12] ugly thing. If you think of science it's [120:15] built up of [120:17] hundreds of thousands of individual work [120:19] research papers people immersing [120:21] themselves in details and then [120:23] uncovering these fantastic things. [120:25] Right? So to me, science is a sublime [120:29] phenomenon and it's humans uncovering [120:33] these insane stories. It's not like I'm [120:37] saying I hate humans and you guys have [120:40] to immerse yourself. It's actually the [120:43] opposite. We have uncovered this these [120:47] in phenomenal stories. We are the [120:49] creators of what is sublime. And so that [120:52] to me is is [120:54] I can remember the early days of the [120:56] internet back in the early 2000s where [120:59] it wasn't what the internet is now. It [121:02] was actually a realm of kind of freedom. [121:04] I could I could connect to somebody in [121:07] Thailand who was interested in Nietze, [121:10] who I am, and was interested in John [121:12] Cold Train, who I am, and we could talk [121:15] and we could connect and we could see, [121:17] yes, you come from a very different [121:18] culture. Why are you interested in these [121:20] things? And it would be very [121:21] fascinating. It was this realm of of [121:23] freedom. It was like a giant human [121:25] brain. [121:27] So technology could be sublime. It could [121:30] lead to a paradise. Humans have a [121:33] sublime quality. But we also have the [121:35] capacity for something much different. [121:38] And look at what the internet has [121:39] become. It's become something that is [121:41] not like it was in the early 2000s. [121:43] Turned into something very ugly and very [121:45] dark. [121:46] >> Yeah. I have thought for a while now [121:48] that the the real problem with humans is [121:52] our propensity to get absorbed by drama. [121:58] >> Yeah. [121:58] >> And by numbing out. [122:01] >> Oh god. Yeah. Uh in in fact my mental [122:04] practice in the morning I do a short [122:07] meditation very brief and do the [122:09] sunlight thing and the rest but I have [122:10] this um imagery that I implant in my [122:13] head of like a thin almost like a [122:17] tightroppe that I have to walk [122:19] >> and on either side is like a slide down [122:22] to the not to the death but in one side [122:24] is drama and the other side is numbing [122:26] out. [122:27] >> I see. And I do realize that you have to [122:29] get a certain distance and then and then [122:30] that tight that tight rope turns into [122:32] more of a of a flat surface that you can [122:35] rest on and stay. But those early hours [122:38] like [122:38] >> wow I I need to do that because [122:41] otherwise that there are too many things [122:43] algorithms and so forth that can just [122:44] yank me down the [122:46] >> the either side of that tightroppe and [122:48] it's not good. I realize that you put [122:50] actionable tools in in the book, but I'm [122:53] pulling from what we've discussed so [122:55] far. I'm hearing that an important [122:58] component to accessing the best of what [122:59] is human, but also the nonhuman in order [123:02] to enrich one's life and access to the [123:05] sublime is a slowing down. So that means [123:10] intentionally not leaping onto the the [123:14] time scale, the rhythm of just anyone. [123:18] >> Yeah. [123:19] >> Uh to be very deliberate about that or [123:21] just anything. [123:21] >> Yeah. And I do hear you loud and clear [123:24] saying that, you know, humans have a [123:26] tremendous amount of value to offer our [123:28] lives. [123:29] >> And and not just in in love, although [123:31] certainly there as you described, [123:33] >> but it does seem that it's getting [123:36] harder and harder to have a great life, [123:41] even with resources, [123:44] the the challenge becomes not getting [123:46] yanked down the sides of the of this uh [123:50] you know, imagery numbers. Yeah. [123:52] >> So I think we can easily see the [123:53] barriers to a good life to the sublime. [123:56] Are the if you want to just toss out a [123:58] couple other like tools or ways to [124:01] access the better version of ourselves [124:03] so that we can get to the sublime. You [124:05] mentioned meditation, writing by hand. [124:08] These might seem, you know, simple, but [124:10] they're very profound ways to to get [124:12] there. Do you keep your phone out of the [124:14] room when you work, when you relate uh [124:16] to other people? I do, but of course I'm [124:19] human and it tempts me and I understand [124:21] the addiction. So I've uh I don't want [124:24] to there's a slight hypocritical side to [124:26] me because I can feel it and I do have [124:28] to take the phone and put it in the [124:30] drawer and I'm getting better and better [124:32] at it. But you talked about numbness. I [124:36] think a lot of the sublime is a function [124:39] of your sensitivity to the world. [124:42] So [124:44] you were born with these senses like any [124:47] creature that are open that are [124:49] constantly giving you feedback from the [124:52] environment, right? That's what senses [124:55] are for. That's what they're designed [124:56] for. So you don't die so you see there's [124:58] a tiger over there and it doesn't kill [125:00] you. Your senses are there to connect [125:02] you to your environment, to connect you [125:04] to the outside world. I have a story in [125:07] the book about this Russian scientist at [125:10] the turn of the 20th century who's a [125:12] geographer who's sent to Siberia [125:15] to kind of discover to map give a map of [125:18] of Siberia the the the forest there [125:20] called the Taigga and he encounters in [125:24] in the middle of this an indigenous [125:26] hunter named Dur Duula famous book and [125:30] then and a movie was made of it. He's [125:32] part of this indigenous culture called [125:34] the Gold, which is on the brink of [125:36] extinction. And he's a lone hunter and [125:39] trapper. [125:40] And the Russian scientist invites him to [125:43] join their expedition as a scout because [125:45] he's intrigued by this man. He slowly [125:48] realizes that this man has an [125:52] intelligence and a sensitivity to the [125:53] environment that is far superior to [125:56] anything that he possesses. He can read [125:58] the sky and the climate and he knows the [126:00] weather that's coming. You can see the [126:02] birds and know what it indicates. At one [126:05] point they encounter a tiger. They hear [126:07] a tiger growling through some bushes. [126:09] And a Siberian tiger is not something [126:11] you want to mess with, right? And so the [126:14] Russian guy gets frightened. He's he's [126:16] frightened. He's got a frightened exper [126:17] uh reaction. He picks up his rifle and [126:20] Darus says, "Put that rifle down." He [126:22] like screams at him. He goes walks up to [126:24] the tiger, which he calls Ama, and he [126:26] goes, "Ama, calm down. We don't we're [126:29] not here to hurt you. We understand you. [126:30] this is your forest. We respect you. We [126:33] will not harm you. And the Russian guy's [126:36] freaking out and the tiger walks away. [126:39] And at the end of the story, Deru ends [126:42] up getting murdered by some people who [126:43] were stealing his whatever he his [126:46] trappings. He goes, "We humans have lost [126:50] something. If only we could keep our [126:52] scientific culture, which he is a [126:54] scientist, but also have these powers of [126:58] our senses, we would be another animal. [127:01] We would be insane. We'd be insanely [127:03] powerful and we wouldn't be so [127:05] destructive. We have powers that come [127:07] through the senses. It's a form of [127:10] intelligence, right? And when our [127:12] sensory experience is so limited, as it [127:16] is as we live in towns and cities, it's [127:18] so same. It's not we're not really we're [127:21] not really listening to sounds. We're [127:23] not really smelling things. We're not [127:24] really looking. Our thoughts become [127:27] constricted. We think we're just [127:30] intelligent animals, but we're physical [127:32] creatures. Our intelligence is modeled [127:34] after our senses. And if we only see the [127:38] same things, our minds kind of atrophy. [127:41] And our creativity and our inventiveness [127:44] came from being in these environments [127:46] that were dangerous. and we had to see [127:48] and think and feel our way into things [127:50] into the into the world. Right? So a lot [127:53] of the sublime is a function of your [127:55] sensitivity. [127:57] You can recover that. It's not like your [128:00] atrophied senses are forever like that. [128:04] You can put yourself in these [128:05] environments. You can go to the desert [128:07] and you can walk through the desert and [128:09] you can feel the emptiness and the [128:11] silence and the lack of vegetation and [128:14] and let the environment inhabit you and [128:16] your senses will awaken. You can go to a [128:18] mountain. You can swim in the ocean. You [128:20] can sit in your goddamn backyard and [128:22] encounter it like I did with my sublime [128:24] book. Your senses are waiting to be [128:27] awakened. If we took somebody who was [128:31] like a stock broker on Wall Street with [128:33] the most atrophied senses you can [128:35] imagine and we gave him a shot of LSD or [128:39] peyote, suddenly it would all open up. [128:42] He would have these experiences as well. [128:44] So the point is it's not dead. It's [128:46] there. It's wanting to be awakened like [128:49] that guy who I said had his [128:51] self-remembering experiences. It [128:53] awakened him. It can happen at any [128:55] moment, but it's a function of your [128:56] sensitivity to the world and how you use [128:59] your senses to let the world inside of [129:01] you and enclose yourself in this little [129:03] kind of citadel. What I'm gathering is [129:06] that our ability to be sensitive, [129:10] to feel things with a lot of intensity [129:13] and to really be explorers, like curious [129:17] explorers are key portals to the this [129:21] thing that you're calling the sublime. [129:23] And we could spend all day thinking [129:25] about the barriers to the sublime. But [129:27] one thing that I do appreciate about the [129:29] way human brains are wired. It's one of [129:31] the great gifts of the human brain is [129:34] that whatever we focus on tends to [129:37] exclude other options. So if we go [129:40] toward drama and numbing out, it [129:42] excludes other options for some period [129:44] of time. if we move toward what we're [129:46] curious about and heightening our [129:48] sensitivity, um those exclude the the [129:52] bad options. And one thing that I I love [129:55] about you so much, man, is that you you [129:58] talk about power, sensitivity, [130:01] um but in particular power through this [130:04] like really benevolent lens. like it's [130:07] like a a really, you know, these days [130:09] that word is so loaded and there's [130:11] clearly awful forms of power, but um [130:14] even the and the way you describe the [130:15] sensual and the erotic, right? These are [130:17] also loaded terms now, unfortunately, [130:19] because because of the way the world is [130:21] and where, you know, we currently are. [130:23] But um I have great hope for uh for this [130:27] book to not just educate people, but to [130:29] to transform them and to transform the [130:33] way they interact with the world and [130:35] each other. I haven't read it yet, so [130:37] that's quite quite a statement. Um, but [130:39] [clears throat] based on everything you [130:40] you've told us, [130:42] >> if you would, I'd like to ask you one [130:45] final question, and it's the meanest [130:47] question I could possibly ask. [130:49] >> Good. I look forward to it. [130:50] >> Yeah. I had a feeling you would. [130:52] >> Okay. [130:52] >> You know, as somebody who just finished [130:53] a book [130:54] >> Oh, yeah. by hand after seven years and [130:58] really grinding it out and God bless you [131:00] for doing it and have written all these [131:02] other amazing books that I have read and [131:04] that I do love. [131:05] >> What's the next book? [131:07] >> Oh sh [131:08] >> or is there a seed of something in your [131:10] mind that you're willing to share? And [131:12] no is a perfectly good answer obviously. [131:14] >> Well, I have two strains. I know I can't [131:16] do another book like that because like [131:19] this because I'm in heading into my late [131:21] 60s and I don't have the energy. I had a [131:24] stroke and I just can't put myself [131:27] through it. I can't wait seven years [131:29] because I don't know how much life I [131:30] have left. [131:30] >> Now, you're going to be around a while, [131:31] man. [131:32] >> All right. I hope [131:32] >> you're doing all the right things. [131:34] >> Okay, I'm trying. But you never know [131:35] because people with who are survivors of [131:38] strokes often don't have a long life [131:41] expectancy. It happens particularly when [131:44] the age that happened to me because [131:46] you're you're prone to other things [131:48] happening unless you're very careful. [131:50] So, I can't do another big project, but [131:54] I'm kind of obsessed with something [131:56] that's very hard for me to to describe [131:59] verbally, but it has to do with the [132:01] invisible. How many things affect our [132:04] lives that you cannot actually see and [132:08] that are very powerful, but that if you [132:10] could see, it would alter your it would [132:13] alter your experience. So, to give you [132:15] an example, we can't see the future. We [132:19] have no knowledge of the future. But [132:21] things are happening right now in each [132:23] in our present moment. Little trends [132:25] that are going to create the future. And [132:28] if we could somehow see them, if we [132:30] could kind of crystallize them into some [132:33] form, we would have this kind of [132:35] knowledge of where we're headed and it [132:37] would be very powerful. And there are [132:39] people in history who demonstrated a [132:42] high ability to predict what was coming. [132:45] And they fascinate me. They like to live [132:47] outside of their time. [132:49] But we live in these abstract spaces [132:53] where we everything is is symbolic to [132:55] us. We just live in these abstract [132:57] worlds and they're invisible and we're [133:00] not aware of their influence on them. [133:02] And I want to kind of make visible all [133:04] of these things that you don't think [133:05] about are affecting your life. It's a [133:08] weird concept in my hand and I've kind [133:10] of detailed on pen and paper some [133:12] examples and things but it's going to be [133:15] a shorter book and it's going to be [133:17] about negative space about seeing what's [133:21] not there as opposed to what's there [133:24] what's missing in the picture. Okay. The [133:27] other thing is I'm toying with the idea [133:29] of writing fiction because it would be [133:31] an insane challenge for me. you'd be [133:33] using a different part of my brain. But [133:36] I'm kind of fascinated [133:38] with the tech world and how it's so [133:42] misguided and where did it come from and [133:45] where is it about humans that have [133:46] created this kind of slightly monstrous [133:49] future that we're headed towards. And [133:52] I've known some of these tech overlords. [133:55] I've met them and I'm kind of interested [133:58] in their psychology and where it came [134:00] from and what is the origin of this form [134:04] of thinking that is I find very very [134:07] dangerous right and so it's very in [134:11] coate it's very much uh nebulous but I'm [134:14] toying with these characters and I'm [134:16] researching about I'm going deep into [134:19] the origins of this deep levels of [134:22] alienation that are that are being [134:24] birthed in this present moment through [134:27] art technology and fiction will give me [134:31] the ability to kind of go inside their [134:33] minds in a way that's I can't really do [134:36] with non-fiction. Right? So I find what [134:39] I want to express about this dangerous [134:41] world we're headed to is more suited for [134:44] fiction than non-fiction. So I'll see [134:46] those are two ideas I'm toying with and [134:48] hopefully my life goes on long enough to [134:51] try and create them. I really appreciate [134:54] you sharing where your deliberation [134:57] um is around that. I have great [135:00] confidence you'll be around a while now. [135:03] You're doing all the right things. [135:05] You're exceedingly sharp and exceedingly [135:07] kind in taking the time to come talk [135:10] about the book and share these ideas [135:12] with us. Um again, I'm super excited to [135:14] read it. You're a real role model to me [135:16] and have been for a long time. [135:18] >> You really are. I mean, ever since I [135:20] read Mastery, I was like, "Oh man. [135:22] this book, this guy, like you know, and [135:24] you're a few years older than me, not [135:26] not terribly much older. And so that's [135:28] always been a a goal of mine is to, you [135:30] know, identify people for whom I I could [135:33] really model some components of of my my [135:36] life and career after um even if the the [135:39] the specifics are different. And it's [135:41] it's uh been great thus far. So, I [135:43] appreciate you've been [135:44] >> I'm very humbled by those words. [135:46] >> Yeah. Well, you didn't know it, but I [135:47] apprenticed myself to you without asking [135:50] your permission. You're like a giant in [135:51] in this world and I'm I feel very [135:53] humbled by that. [135:54] >> You were truly uh in your light. Uh [135:58] thank you [clears throat] so much, [135:59] Robert, for coming here. Let's get [136:01] together soon. [136:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. [136:03] >> Maybe we do that psychedelic journey [136:04] together. [136:04] >> Oh my god. I I'd love it. I love it. [136:06] >> We won't live stream it. We're just [136:08] going to have the experience. [136:09] >> No one's going to be here about it, [136:11] right? [136:12] >> Just thank you. Thanks for being you. [136:13] Thanks for being such a an incredibly [136:15] powerful and thoughtful writer and keep [136:18] going. [136:18] >> Thank you so much, Andrew. I really [136:20] appreciate it. Thank you so much for the [136:21] opportunity. I really appreciate it. [136:23] >> We'll do it again. [136:24] >> Okay. I I look forward to it. [136:26] >> Thank you for joining me for today's [136:28] discussion with Robert Green. To learn [136:30] more about his work and to find links to [136:32] his various books, including his new [136:33] book, The Art of the Sublime, please see [136:35] the links in the show notes caption. If [136:37] you're learning from and or enjoying [136:39] this podcast, please subscribe to our [136:40] YouTube channel. That's a terrific [136:42] zerocost way to support us. In addition, [136:44] please follow the podcast by clicking [136:46] the follow button on both Spotify and [136:48] Apple. And on both Spotify and Apple, [136:50] you can leave us up to a fivestar [136:52] review. And you can now leave us [136:53] comments at both Spotify and Apple. 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