Huberman Tells Tech Founders to Cap Daily Deep Focus at Six Hours

休伯曼建议科技创始人将每日深度专注控制在六小时以内 过度优化健康方案和持续依赖兴奋剂会消耗高影响力工作所需的耐力，而这类工作每天最多只有两个三小时的认知窗口，必须予以严加保护。 安德鲁·休伯曼博士（Dr. Andrew Huberman）详细拆解了支撑其身体健康和心智表现的核心习惯，强调清晨阳光、低容量高强度抗阻训练以及高质量睡眠是不可妥协的基石。他详细介绍了自己的日常流程，涵盖针对性补剂摄入、非睡眠深度休息（NSDR），以及将装有社交媒体的备用手机锁入实体保险箱以捍卫专注力。谈及高效工作时，休伯曼指出，人类的认知能力在现实中每天最多只能支撑两段3小时的深度“专注工作期”，并建议创业者严密保护这些处于生物巅峰状态的窗口期，免受低杠杆杂事的干扰。最后，他敦促知识工作者像耐力运动员一样运作，采用可持续的日常节奏、无损的休息放松方式以及每周彻底抽离工作，而不是依赖兴奋剂来强撑长期的慢性透支。 安德鲁·休伯曼指出，清晨明亮的阳光、持续的抗阻训练以及优化可获得的睡眠质量，是健康不可妥协的三大核心支柱。 (32:38) 为保护前额叶认知带宽免受智能手机干扰，休伯曼将社交媒体应用隔离在备用手机上，并将其锁入无法强行破解的定时保险盒中。 (30:46) 人类的高水平认知表现在现实中每天最多达到两个3小时的专注时段峰值，这两个时段应受到严格保护，免受低杠杆事务的干扰。 (37:38) 实现长期的职业生涯寿命需要像耐力运动员那样把控节奏，避免持续依赖兴奋剂，并安排每周一整天彻底抽离工作。 (45:17)

[0:48] Dr. Andrew Huberman: The data say zero is better than any. Two per week is probably the upper limit for an adult non-alcoholic. [37:38] Andrew Huberman: I don't know many people that are completely focused for eight or nine hours a day without the next day being completely shot. [18:47] Andrew Huberman: There are certain practices that are so very clearly good for us where the mechanistic data come later. [13:12] Andrew Huberman: if I've ever eaten really clean for a while, I actually am less strong, less happy, I make less progress in general.

[0:00] If you take yourself and your work [0:01] really seriously, you need to organize [0:03] your day that way. [0:04] >> If you had to recommend three things to [0:06] people to live a healthier life, what [0:08] would those be? [0:09] >> Do the weight training protocol I talked [0:10] about earlier? It will completely change [0:12] your life. Figure out some way to make [0:14] the sleep you can get the highest [0:16] quality sleep. [0:17] >> Did you take any supplements or [0:18] medications yesterday? [0:20] >> Loads. [0:21] >> What's something you recommend to others [0:23] but are not that good at following [0:25] yourself? [0:25] >> I think the social media thing might be [0:27] the biggest one. I recently moved X and [0:29] Instagram to a separate phone and then I [0:32] keep that phone in a lock box. You can't [0:34] actually code out of it. [0:35] >> We have a lot of founders who listen to [0:37] our podcast. If you had to narrow it [0:40] down to three pieces of evidence-based [0:43] habits for cognitive performance, what [0:45] would those things be? [0:46] >> Um, [0:48] >> Dr. Herman, welcome to the A16Z show. [0:51] >> Thank you. Delighted to be here. Your [0:53] podcast launched in January of 21 and [0:57] has changed the way millions of people [0:59] live their lives. This morning I got my [1:01] son. I delayed my caffeine a little bit, [1:04] probably not as much as you would like. [1:06] Um, and you famously got our firm's [1:08] founder, Mark Andre, to stop drinking [1:10] alcohol. Um, I'm not there yet. Um, but [1:13] I'm wondering if looking back you [1:15] remember a moment where you were like, [1:17] "Holy cow, people aren't just listening [1:20] to me, they're like changing their daily [1:22] habits because of what I say." [1:24] >> Well, it's been a wild ride. I didn't [1:27] anticipate any of it. Uh, [1:31] but I'm delighted that people are doing [1:33] things for their health and um, I don't [1:35] know whether or not to accept uh, by [1:39] saying thank you or apologize that Mark [1:41] stopped drinking. I know he enjoyed the [1:42] occasional drink. I want [1:43] >> He's grumpy about it. [1:44] >> Yeah. Well, I want to be very clear. The [1:46] data say zero is better than any. Two [1:49] per week is probably the upper limit for [1:52] uh an adult non-alcoholic. And I don't [1:54] think Mark is alcoholic. He could in [1:56] theory have two drinks. But when I [1:57] suggested um that he goes no, you know, [2:01] he kind of did what many people do, [2:03] which is sometimes none is easier to [2:05] stick to than than some. And I do think [2:07] that alcohol can be enjoyed. And if one [2:11] wants to do that, just to think about [2:12] doing some of the other things that can [2:13] be beneficial. But to directly answer [2:16] your question, [2:17] I didn't anticipate any of it. As I [2:19] said, I'm delighted people are taking [2:21] measures for their health. And at some [2:24] point, I realized like, wo, people are [2:27] starting to do things. And I couldn't [2:29] tell whether or not it was because of [2:31] the science that we were presenting or [2:33] because the protocols I know work [2:36] extremely well. The nice thing is I [2:38] don't take credit for the actual [2:40] protocols because in most cases with [2:42] rare exception like some things related [2:43] to stress mitigation in most cases you [2:47] know the protocols come from other [2:49] people's science. So in looking at the [2:52] fields of science and health education [2:55] um most people who've been out there [2:58] have been talking about their own [2:59] science. So doing it this way affords me [3:02] a certain amount of freedom. I have to [3:03] be careful too because I'm talking about [3:05] other people's science often. Um, but I [3:08] love to learn and I love to teach. So [3:10] for me, I nothing makes me happier than [3:15] reading papers and sharing what I think [3:17] is interesting information and trying [3:19] things out and seeing what works. And [3:21] the people that have been close to me [3:23] will tell you that for my whole life, [3:26] when I've learned something I thought [3:27] was cool, I'm out there teaching about [3:30] it whether people want to listen or not. [3:32] So, they just kind of stuck a microphone [3:33] in front of me and here I am. [3:35] >> Amazing. You've been very transparent [3:37] about your daily protocols. Um, like I [3:40] mentioned, sun in your eyes, you know, [3:41] delaying caffeine, but also rotating [3:44] exercise by day, cold plunging sauna, [3:47] doing yoga, nidra, um, taking a variety [3:49] of supplements. Um, but maybe you can [3:51] just walk us through like yesterday. I'm [3:54] curious. What did you eat? What exercise [3:57] did you do? What supplements did you [3:58] take? What what of your advice did you [4:00] follow? And what did you not? [4:01] >> A single day. So I wake up, I use the [4:04] bathroom like everybody else. [4:06] >> I um [4:06] >> Do you get on your phone while you're in [4:07] bed? [4:08] >> No. [4:08] >> Okay. [4:08] >> No phones. Phone's out of the room while [4:11] I sleep. [4:12] >> If I didn't love love love my eight [4:14] sleep so much, I would figure out a way [4:16] to have no Wi-Fi on in the house at all [4:20] at night. [4:20] >> Interesting. [4:21] >> So I woke up, I'm groggy like everybody [4:24] else. my mind starts going places that [4:27] you know what it's discombobulated on [4:29] waking. I I don't think I've ever woken [4:31] up and just done a big yawn and been [4:33] like life is so good. I wake up and I [4:34] think okay I have this to do I have that [4:36] to do. So the first thing that I do is [4:37] get up use the restroom and then I go do [4:40] these days I do a five minute [4:41] meditation. I set my phone for 5 minutes [4:45] and I do a standard meditation of just [4:47] breathing. This I think is an extremely [4:50] important practice that I haven't talked [4:52] a lot about. um if for no other reason [4:55] than it gets you very aware of what the [5:00] inputs to your brain are about to be and [5:02] it also makes you very aware of how [5:04] chaotic it can be in our minds and after [5:07] talking to a number of people who've [5:08] worked on the science of meditation um [5:11] in particular folks out at University of [5:13] Wisconsin who've done a bunch of the [5:14] brain imaging it's very clear that the [5:16] real benefits of meditation come from [5:18] not quieting the mind but from being [5:20] able to just absor oberve how chaotic it [5:24] is [5:24] >> and see that as something slightly [5:26] separate from the quote unquote observer [5:28] and we have circuits that we think [5:30] underly the observer versus all the the [5:32] monkey mind stuff as they call it but I [5:34] always thought that meditation was about [5:36] achieving a really peaceful state turns [5:38] out it's about observing the chaos and [5:41] so the best way I can describe this [5:43] practice in terms of its utility is just [5:45] as with exercise if you get a burn in [5:47] your legs or the final repetitions of [5:49] lifting weights that's what triggers the [5:51] adaptation [5:53] with meditation in terms of [5:54] consciousness and and focus and [5:56] awareness. I think the lactate of the [5:58] mind as it was described to me not so I [6:02] didn't come up with that phrase. The [6:03] lactate of the mind is to be able to [6:05] experience that chaos, observe it and [6:07] not do anything with it. That's what [6:10] allows you to move into your day with I [6:12] think uh more awareness of what is a [6:15] meaningful thought or reaction and what [6:17] isn't. [6:18] >> Um okay. So I do that five minutes. But [6:20] these days I find the buzzer goes off [6:22] without me going when is this over? When [6:24] is this over? Um and then I get sunlight [6:28] in my eyes. I I'm absolutely religious [6:31] about that. Sometimes I go up on my [6:32] roof. Sometimes I go for a walk. Um [6:35] >> were you home yesterday? [6:36] >> I was. Yeah. Okay. Yeah. And I I take [6:38] some water with me usually, drink some [6:40] water, get some sunlight in my eyes. [6:42] Today I woke up in a hotel. I was facing [6:44] east in the morning, so it was great. [6:45] Got to actually see the sunrise. But [6:47] cloudy day, overcast day, I'm getting [6:48] sunlight in my eyes first thing. If I [6:50] wake up long before the sun is out, I [6:52] have a 10,000 lux artificial light and [6:54] I'll get in front of that thing just as [6:56] I make coffee in the morning or or do my [6:58] thing. I then if I'm going to exercise, [7:01] I drink caffeine right away. I think [7:03] this is something that I've tried to be [7:04] clear about, but it hasn't always been [7:05] clear. If I'm going to exercise, I need [7:07] caffeine. So, I'm not waiting even 30 [7:09] minutes. I'm going to drink caffeine. [7:11] So, I drink yerba mate, which is my [7:13] preferred source of caffeine [7:15] >> for a long time now. Uh, and then I [7:20] exercise. And my exercise routine is [7:22] very simple. And I I might just share it [7:24] because I've found that it's been very [7:26] beneficial, not just for me, but for uh [7:28] women I've trained with, uh, men, people [7:31] of all ages. I've followed it for 35 [7:33] years, and I think it's the most [7:34] timeefficient and effective exercise [7:36] program. [7:37] >> Um, and it's really straightforward. [7:39] Three days a week lifting weights, two [7:42] to three days a week doing some sort of [7:43] quote unquote cardio. Uh the cardio I'll [7:47] just explain first. Um something where [7:49] you get your heart rate way way up [7:51] safely. So could be the rower, could be [7:54] the aerodine bike, the one with you know [7:56] push pull with the arms while you're [7:57] pedaling, could be running. Pick [7:59] something that you can go close to max [8:02] effort without hurting yourself. This is [8:04] a really big deal especially now that [8:05] I'm 50. It's like I I feel quite proud [8:08] of the fact that I'm never had a major [8:10] injury and I feel great at 50 mostly [8:12] because of what I didn't do. A lot of [8:14] people were talking about all the things [8:15] they did do. It's all the things I [8:17] didn't do. I never hopped on someone [8:18] else's workout just because I was [8:20] challenged. That's how you hurt [8:21] yourself. [8:22] >> And um and I picked things that felt [8:25] right to me. Cycling doesn't feel good [8:27] to me. Running and the aime bike do. So [8:29] warm up for a minute, pedal easy in my [8:32] case. Then go 20 seconds all out effort, [8:34] 10 seconds rest. Repeat that eight [8:36] times. You're done. [8:38] >> That's one cardio workout. You're [8:40] getting max heart rate, close to max [8:42] heart rate. This is V2 max types up and [8:45] you it's so fast. Okay, [8:47] >> so yesterday was Sunday. What is Sunday? [8:49] >> So day one, this could fall on a Sunday [8:51] or a Monday for someone. Doesn't matter. [8:53] But the first day of the week I train my [8:54] legs with resistance training. [8:56] >> Mhm. [8:56] >> Takes about an hour. That's the hardest [8:58] work of the week. And if I were to only [9:01] do one workout per week for the rest of [9:03] my life, it would be that. Okay. For [9:05] lots of reasons, largest musculature, [9:08] systemic effects on hormones and [9:09] metabolism, [9:11] etc., etc. After leg day, I typically [9:14] take the day completely off. I'll try to [9:17] do some sauna cold alternation on those [9:19] days for recovery. Um, we can talk [9:21] details there. Then depending on how [9:23] well I've recovered, it might be just [9:25] one day off, it might be two days off. [9:27] Then I do some sort of pushpull thing [9:29] for the torso. So, some chest presses, [9:32] some shoulder presses, [9:33] >> a pull-up or pull pull down type thing [9:35] if someone can't do pull-ups or pull [9:37] downs, and some sort of row. Maybe some [9:39] stuff for the neck. If somebody has bad [9:42] posture or they're finding this, [9:44] oftentimes men will will that their [9:46] shoulders will still start getting wider [9:48] and they're not training their neck. [9:49] First of all, it looks kind of [9:51] disproportionate, but then they'll start [9:53] getting rotator cuff stuff. Training the [9:54] neck is very help is very important for [9:56] stability of the entire, you know, [9:58] shoulder girdle. So, um, and then I'll [10:01] take a day off and then I'll do, um, [10:03] some arms, calves, abs type, you know, [10:05] smaller body parts. So, those are three [10:07] separate weight training days. [10:09] >> Mhm. [10:09] >> All of them follow the same approach. [10:11] And and this is where I think people go [10:13] badly wrong, but the data and what [10:15] you're hearing online is starting to [10:16] finally catch up. You could warm up for [10:19] a couple minutes on the bike or some [10:20] jumping jacks if you wanted, but I [10:22] recommend doing one light set. So, 10 or [10:25] 12 repetitions, very light, just to get [10:26] blood flowing for the first movement. [10:29] Then the second exercise, uh, or the [10:31] second set, excuse me, is a moderate [10:33] set. So, a set that you probably could [10:35] do 10 repetitions, you do three. [10:38] >> You're just preparing the nervous system [10:39] for the heavier load. [10:40] >> Then you do two work sets spaced maybe 3 [10:44] minutes, four minutes rest in between, [10:46] which is long. But those work sets are [10:48] all out work sets in perfect form taken [10:50] to momentary muscular failure. Two two [10:54] sets only. So, this might be a leg [10:55] extension for the quads and then you [10:57] would move to something else. Some sort [10:58] of movement you can do safely, a squat, [11:00] a front squat, a leg press. I mean, [11:01] there's so many variations, right? some [11:03] compound movement and then something the [11:05] same thing for the hamstrings. The point [11:06] here is that it's light set, medium set, [11:10] many fewer reps than you could do even [11:12] with the medium set. Then hard work for [11:14] two sets. Write down what you did and [11:16] either increase weight or increase [11:18] repetitions every single workout. And I [11:20] do this for every single thing I just [11:22] described regardless of body part. It [11:24] ends up being two exercises per body [11:26] part, maybe three. So the total volume [11:29] of work is very low. You leave these [11:31] workouts, even leg day, feeling not [11:33] completely rejuvenated, but you're not [11:35] crushed. [11:36] >> Your recovery is very fast. Your nervous [11:38] system isn't as taxed, and you make [11:41] progress at an an amazing rate. Uh, a [11:44] woman that I suggested this to who is [11:46] who was a D1 athlete who soccer, you [11:48] know, played soccer for years, came to [11:50] me the other day and she's like, "I [11:51] can't believe this works so well. It's a [11:52] third of the volume I was doing before." [11:54] Um, you can just put more into these [11:56] individual sets. So, I could go on and [11:58] on about this, but then somewhere in the [11:59] week, I find a way to do the the 6 [12:02] minute uh what turns out to be about [12:04] about 6 minutes of the, you know, the 20 [12:06] seconds all out, 10-second rest, and I [12:10] find another day to do some sort of long [12:12] hike. It used to be a jog. Nowadays, I [12:15] like to, you know, throw on a weight [12:16] vest or a just a backpack and hike. Um, [12:20] where my heart rate's up and I'm I'm [12:22] breathing a bit. And if I'm really [12:25] ambitious and I'm getting enough sleep [12:26] every night, I might do also a 20 to 30 [12:29] minute run in the middle of the week. [12:31] But those three weight workouts will get [12:33] most people what they want in terms of [12:35] body recomposition, strength, and not [12:37] just offsetting muscle loss and strength [12:39] with age, but feeling much better [12:42] posturally, mobility wise. And of [12:44] course, you can always stretch, but you [12:45] can do that while you watch TV in the [12:46] evening or something. So that's the kind [12:48] of framework of that. I've been doing [12:49] that for 35 years. Everyone I've given [12:52] it to is positively shocked by the [12:55] brevity, the uh the results most [12:59] importantly and the fact that you know [13:02] it it's fun when you when you are [13:04] looking forward to you know just a [13:06] really 45 to 60 minutes of hard work. [13:08] It's it's fun. It actually starts to [13:10] become a pleasure to do. [13:11] >> Okay. Yesterday was leg day. What [13:12] happened after legs? [13:13] >> All right. Um after legs I uh ingested [13:18] some starches and fruit. [13:20] >> Okay. After you weight train, if you [13:21] train hard the way I described, you need [13:24] to replenish glycogen. People say, [13:25] "Well, you didn't you didn't deplete all [13:27] your glycogen." ingesting some starches [13:30] after you train is a good idea. [13:31] >> What starch did you have? [13:32] >> I had a I I trained really hard, so I [13:34] had uh and I love to eat. So, I had [13:37] banana, blueberry, I had a couple scoops [13:40] of whey protein. I had some oatmeal and [13:42] I had some sourdough toast with butter [13:44] and salt on it because if something has [13:46] butter on it, you got to salt it, too. [13:48] Um is my opinion. Um, and then a few [13:51] hours later, maybe three hours later, I [13:53] had a sort of standard meal, which would [13:55] be my normal lunch, which would be um [13:57] some piece of meat, either beef or [14:00] chicken. Um, I'm not a big fan of fish, [14:02] unless it's, you know, like an AI tuna, [14:04] and that's kind of hard to come by most [14:05] days. Um, and some vegetable. I I I'm a [14:09] big believer in fiber, but I want to [14:11] make a point that I think doesn't get [14:12] discussed enough, which is that many [14:14] people get gastric distress from certain [14:17] fibrous foods. It's very important, I [14:19] think, that people find foods that are [14:22] good for them, but that they feel good [14:24] eating and after they eat. So, for [14:26] instance, you're not going to see me [14:28] eating broccoli. It makes me feel kind [14:30] of not well. It doesn't digest well no [14:33] matter how much I chew it, this and [14:34] that. Um, so I I'm not alone in this. [14:37] Um, there's some foods like onions that [14:39] generate hist histamines. [14:41] >> Um, and so some people just don't feel [14:44] good after eating certain foods. You [14:46] have to experiment and see what works [14:47] for you. And the only way to do that [14:48] really is for a short while to start [14:51] experimenting with single ingredient [14:53] foods, right? Just having a some [14:55] broccoli. You can put some olive oil or [14:56] butter on it, right? Just seeing what [14:58] works. What if people are constantly [14:59] eating sandwiches and stews and pizzas [15:01] and soulets and lasagnas, you don't know [15:03] what what works for you and what [15:05] doesn't. So, a lot of developing really [15:07] healthy eating habits with food with [15:10] foods that you love and having a lot of [15:12] choices is to figure out what you can [15:15] eat and feel really good eating after [15:19] you eat as well. [15:20] >> Okay. So, what protein did you have for [15:21] lunch? [15:21] >> I had beef. [15:22] >> Beef. Okay. [15:23] >> I had I had just some grilled steak. I [15:25] had uh in my case sliced cucumbers and [15:27] tomatoes. And I had some rice as well. [15:29] >> Any dessert? [15:30] >> Um well, and I I'm a big fan of olive [15:32] oil, so I had some olive oil. Um, no. I [15:35] I don't tend to like sweets that much. [15:37] If I have sweets, it's generally 100% [15:39] chocolate, which is really boring and [15:42] kind of nerdy, but you you develop a [15:44] taste for it. Um, I sort of lost my [15:46] appetite for sweets. I have not lost my [15:49] appetite for fats. [15:50] >> So, to me, a treat is like a chunk of [15:53] really, really good Parmesan cheese. [15:56] >> What's the most indulgent thing you've [15:58] had recently? [16:00] >> Gosh. Um, it's it's going to sound so [16:03] healthy, but I I had an amazing ribeye [16:06] the other day. Um, I'm not a because I [16:09] don't like sweets and I don't drink [16:10] alcohol. Indulgent for me would be like [16:14] >> pizza. [16:15] >> Pizza I love. Pizza I love, but I'm very [16:17] particular about pizza. So, on the East [16:19] Coast, you know, in New York, I'll get a [16:22] slice of just any kind of walk-in place [16:24] or two. on the west coast. Aaronelli's [16:26] pizza in the East Bay is pretty much the [16:28] only thing that meets my threshold for [16:30] East Coast enough like pizza. So, yeah, [16:33] I do that. I if I were going to have ice [16:35] cream, it would be chocolate chip ice [16:37] cream. Um, and I'm trying to think if I [16:41] have any kind of indulgences. I should [16:44] be very clear. It's not because I'm [16:45] quote unquote addicted to feeling good [16:48] and those things make me feel bad. I I [16:50] simply I do think there's a compound [16:52] effect of of of doing things right in [16:55] terms of exercise and sleep etc. But I [16:57] will say this, if I've ever eaten really [17:00] clean for a while, I actually am less [17:02] strong, less happy, I make less progress [17:06] in general. And so every once in a [17:07] while, like spiking my nutrition with a [17:10] couple of slices of pepperoni pizza is [17:12] is seems just like a really good thing. [17:14] Croissants, that's the other thing. [17:16] anything buttery, but the combination of [17:19] fat and starch is really what does it [17:22] for me. [17:22] >> I I wasn't going to trust you if you [17:23] said you didn't like a croissant. So [17:25] >> croissants are amazing. [17:26] >> Um so so that was [17:27] >> afternoon dinner sleep. [17:29] >> Yeah. So if I've slept really well, I [17:32] don't take a nap or do any kind of yoga [17:33] nidra, but typically I don't get enough [17:37] sleep. I think people are shocked to [17:38] hear this like, "Aren't you the sleep [17:40] guy?" It I like many humans um struggle [17:43] with getting to sleep early enough. [17:45] Okay. So, I do a 10 to 30 minute [17:48] non-sleep deep rest yoga nidra in the [17:50] afternoon. I I think it's a wonderful [17:52] thing to restore mental and physical [17:54] vigor without generating sleep inertia. [17:57] Actually, your very own Mark Andre who [17:59] likes to take uh swipes at me online. [18:01] It's kind of funny on X people think [18:02] that we're enemies, but it I recognize [18:05] it as friendly um and I invite it. But I [18:09] once said, you know, yoga nidra, where [18:11] you lie still, you deeply relax your [18:14] body, and you keep intentionally keep [18:16] your mind awake. I said, it's not a nap. [18:18] It doesn't induce sleep inertia. It's [18:20] better than a nap. It teaches you to [18:21] fall back asleep if you wake up in the [18:23] middle of the night. And Mark, of [18:24] course, wrote, "It's a nap." [18:27] So, um, it's not a nap, Mark. Um, but I [18:32] appreciated the joke. It's very [18:33] different. And in fact, there's some [18:36] emerging evidence that during these [18:37] non-sleep, deep rest states that pockets [18:40] of the brain are experiencing deep sleep [18:42] and maybe even growth hormone release, [18:44] which is pretty interesting. Um, so I'm [18:46] very interested in these so-called [18:47] hypnogogic or kind of um liinal states [18:50] between sleep and awake. It's also just [18:52] kind of an interesting exploration of [18:54] the mind. Usually I come out of that [18:56] having some clarity about what I want to [18:57] do. Now, I should mention after after I [19:00] trained legs, I I read papers and I [19:02] worked. I should I even on a Sunday? [19:04] >> Um and then in the later afternoon I [19:08] make it a point to get a walk before the [19:10] sun goes down [19:11] >> or I if I don't have time and I'm on a [19:13] phone call, I'll just step outside and [19:14] watch the sun go down if I can or just [19:16] look in the direction of the sun in the [19:18] overcast sky. I actually learned this [19:20] practice from the sleep lab at Stanford [19:22] down the road from here when I worked [19:23] there during a summer in college. This [19:25] was before the discovery of the neurons [19:27] in the eye that that register ambient [19:30] light and signal to the brain circadian [19:32] clock. So this is in the mid '90s. Those [19:35] cells weren't discovered till the early [19:36] 2000s. And what's interesting is all the [19:39] staff of the of the sleep laboratory [19:41] would go outside from the basement and [19:44] we look at the sunset. And I was like, [19:46] why are we doing this? And they said, [19:47] oh, this sets your circadian rhythm. [19:49] It's well known. Ideally, you do it in [19:50] the morning as well. And that's when I [19:52] started the practice. And so these are [19:55] serious scientists with Howard Hughes [19:56] investigators, members of the National [19:58] Academy. Now we understand all the [20:00] mechanisms. But I point that out because [20:02] I think a number of people think that [20:03] you need all the mechanistic science [20:05] worked out first. There are certain [20:06] practices that are are so very clearly [20:10] good for us where the mechanistic data [20:12] come later. So I try and do that in the [20:14] afternoon. Sometimes I'll stand outside [20:15] with a you know a cup of tea or [20:17] something. I do stop drinking caffeine [20:19] about 2:00 p.m. You know, that's about [20:21] the latest. Otherwise, I do have trouble [20:23] falling asleep. And then usually it's a [20:26] bit more work when I go inside. And then [20:28] in the evening, I eat some sort of [20:29] dinner. And for dinner, I have to say if [20:31] it's a day when I resistance train, [20:34] generally I'm pretty hungry for dinner. [20:36] Um, and I'll do something kind of like [20:37] lunch, but not exactly the same. Um, and [20:41] if it's uh a day when I didn't exercise, [20:44] it tends to be a kind of smaller meal [20:45] and usually not as much protein for that [20:48] last meal. And so my last bite of food [20:50] is somewhere around typically around [20:51] 7:30, 8:00, but I'm not nuts about that [20:54] because I tend to go to sleep somewhere [20:56] around 11:00 p.m. And the last hour [20:59] before sleep, I'm just dimming the [21:00] lights. I'm just kind of trying to [21:01] transition my day down. Um, I do put [21:04] away the phone because I find it's very [21:06] easy to get into text conversations late [21:08] at night. Mhm. [21:09] >> Um, and I do like to be on the computer [21:11] till fairly late and I sometimes I'll [21:15] get some entertainment in of watching [21:16] something, but these days I mostly just [21:19] read. [21:19] >> Do you do like the blue light glasses or [21:20] anything? [21:21] >> I do. I have the red lens glasses. We [21:23] designed some of those with Roka. I I [21:25] think here's an important thing that [21:27] also born out of a conversation between [21:29] Elon and Mark online where um I think [21:32] Oh, no. It was Lex and Mark and Elon [21:34] jumped in. You know that Mark said uh I [21:36] I stopped drinking because of Huberman, [21:38] but um but I'm not going to do any of [21:41] that blue light That's that's what [21:42] he said. So his words um there is huge [21:46] variation in terms of people's [21:47] sensitivity to blue light at night. Um [21:50] and I think a lot of people think the [21:51] lights have to appear blue, but um [21:53] bright lights uh white lights, yellow [21:56] lights have short wavelength light. So [21:58] that's what we're talking talking about [21:59] when we're talking about blue. Um, some [22:02] people are very sensitive to it. It [22:03] spikes their cortisol. It disrupts their [22:05] sleep, even as little as a 100 lux, [22:07] which is very dim through closed [22:09] eyelids. Other people are less sensitive [22:11] to it. We don't know how that works. It [22:12] doesn't seem to be related to how light [22:14] or dark somebody's eyes are. My eyes are [22:16] just very sensitive to light. So that at [22:19] night, if I get a lot of bright overhead [22:21] light, I have trouble falling asleep or [22:23] I fall asleep and I wake up in the [22:24] middle of the night. So if I dim the [22:26] lights or I wind down glasses, I feel [22:28] much better. So I think there is kind of [22:29] a split. We don't really know what the [22:31] underlying reasons are. But in any case, [22:34] >> I was upsold on um blue light blocking [22:37] contact lenses the last time I got my [22:40] contacts prescribed. And my husband says [22:41] it makes my eyes look freaky, but I was [22:43] like, I'm not going back to [22:44] >> So they blue light [22:45] >> the opthalmologist. [22:46] >> Yeah, you need some short wavelength [22:48] light during the day on your skin and in [22:50] your eyes to generate vitamin D for [22:52] instance. I mean UV light is not not [22:54] across the board bad. Uh I should [22:56] mention that when the sun is low in the [22:57] sky, the UV index is very low. I mean [23:00] one of the reasons that you can look at [23:01] the rising sun or the setting sun and it [23:03] doesn't hurt your eyes is because [23:05] there's this phenomenon of atmospheric [23:06] raylay scattering where the short [23:08] wavelengths in like UV are are filtered [23:11] out. When the sun is overhead, it's [23:13] extremely bright. It's painful to look [23:15] at. That's because you're getting a lot [23:16] more of the um the shorter wavelength [23:19] light reaching your eyes. So if people [23:21] are concerned about UV exposure, morning [23:24] and evening or late afternoon light [23:26] exposure is very low UV or you can just [23:28] look at the UV index. It's, you know, [23:30] with a [23:30] >> totally [23:31] >> Google search or something. [23:32] >> Did you take any supplements or [23:33] medications yesterday? [23:35] >> Loads, [23:37] but quickly take them off. [23:38] >> Sure. Uh, right. Um, so not this is not [23:42] a promotional. I want to be very clear. [23:44] This is what I've done and what I've [23:47] actually been doing most of these things [23:49] since 2012. People So, I do take AG1 [23:53] twice a day. I do that in the morning, [23:55] usually right before my first meal of [23:56] the day and in the evening. People say, [23:58] "Okay, that that's cuz they're they're a [24:00] sponsor of the podcast." I use it just [24:03] as I describe it as a cover nutritional [24:06] basis where if I didn't eat enough [24:08] fruits and vegetables or something, I [24:10] can cover any gaps. I like it. Um, so [24:13] I've been doing that for a very long [24:15] time, long before I knew what a podcast [24:16] was. I take fish oil. I'm a big believer [24:20] in high doses of of EPA, omega-3s. You [24:23] know, there's this whole debate about, [24:25] you know, omega6 to omega-3 ratios. [24:28] >> These days, I find the most efficient [24:29] way to get above a gram of EPA per day [24:32] and not just above a gram of fish oil, [24:34] is to take Lovaza, which is a [24:36] prescription uh omega-3. It also all the [24:40] heavy metals have been extracted so you [24:41] don't have to worry about that. Um and [24:43] there are generic versions of it so it's [24:45] pretty inexpensive now. So I I think [24:48] people might want to take Lavaza. They [24:51] might not but I take Lavaza. I take some [24:54] um vitamin D. I take three to you know [24:57] 5,000 units of vitamin D3. Um and my [25:01] morning supplement uh ingestion includes [25:04] I actually I actually believe in some of [25:07] the herbal supplements. Now, just based [25:09] on my blood work, I take 400 milligrams [25:11] of something called Tonga Ali, which is [25:12] a Indonesian um uh I deal there are a [25:16] couple different versions, but I take [25:17] Tonga Ali, which um it's known to help [25:20] the unbinding of something called sex [25:22] hormone binding globulin from [25:24] testosterone, so it frees up [25:25] testosterone a bit. Men and women can [25:27] take this. Um I don't have any financial [25:30] relationship to the companies that sell [25:32] it. Um so, I take the solar array [25:34] version. It's also the the least [25:36] expensive. Um, so and I I do that. I [25:40] take um I take something called P5P, [25:44] which is a vitamin B6 derivative. I take [25:46] 50 milligs of that. It's a I take that [25:49] to slightly reduce prolactin. I don't [25:51] have high prolactin, but I do that um in [25:54] the morning. You you know, you sort of [25:56] want to amplify the cortisol and [25:58] so-called catakolamine, so dopamine or [26:00] epinephrine, epinephrine kind of millu. [26:02] Um and it can assist with that a bit. [26:06] Um, and let's see. Um, what else? Oh, I [26:11] take, uh, an acetylcysteine, [26:13] >> uh, 600 milligrams a day. It's a [26:15] glutathione precursor. Uh, an [26:17] acetylcysteine, [26:18] there's a really nice study showing, um, [26:20] that an acetylcysteine 600 to 900 [26:23] milligrams taken three times per day can [26:25] reduce the likelihood that you will [26:27] catch flu. And they did this study by [26:30] exposing people to to other people with [26:33] flu. [26:33] >> I only take it if I feel like I'm [26:34] getting sick. Great. It can make your [26:36] nose run a little bit. It's a mucalytic. [26:37] It's actually used in in other contexts [26:40] and dosages um for cystic fibrosis, [26:42] which is the buildup of fluid in the [26:44] lungs. So, it's a pretty powerful tool. [26:46] I take it once per day, and if I'm [26:48] feeling run down or if I'm traveling, if [26:49] I'm around somebody who's sick, I will [26:50] I'll take three times a day. [26:52] >> Um it can also perhaps help shorten the [26:55] course of of a cold or flu. But I [26:58] learned this trick from an ER doc who [27:00] was working through the pandemic and [27:01] needed to stay healthy. But the data in [27:03] that paper and I can provide you a link [27:05] if you want are pretty interesting. The [27:07] um the sort of transmission of of flu in [27:11] this case was um I think it was [27:15] in the mid se 70 percentage [27:18] points is of people who took the placebo [27:22] got the flu by being exposed to clearly [27:24] flu virus and I think that number [27:26] reduced to the high 20s in the group [27:28] that took an acetylcysteine. We'll have [27:30] to double check on those numbers. So, [27:32] pretty impressive. I figured safe, [27:34] increasing glutathions, safe, so why [27:36] not? No financial relationship to any [27:38] company that sells it, but they're all [27:40] pretty much equivalent. And then with [27:41] lunch, I take a a multivitamin. I take [27:44] uh two digestive enzymes. Um, I [27:47] definitely think that can help. If [27:49] somebody gets itchy after food or thinks [27:50] they have food allergies before you run [27:52] off and do some expensive food allergy [27:54] analysis or something like that um or [27:56] treatment I recommend there's a um [27:59] there's a enzyme to that you can take [28:02] before you eat any histamineergic foods [28:05] completely transformed my relationship [28:07] to food cuz I can eat pretty much [28:08] anything. Now, [28:10] >> this was a tool that was actually [28:11] suggested to me by a colleague at [28:12] Stanford, which doesn't necessarily mean [28:14] it's a clinical study, but um makes [28:16] sense. If you're not making enough of [28:17] the enzyme to process histamineergic [28:20] foods, um you can imagine you might get [28:22] some uncomfortable symptoms. And [28:24] >> I'm a very allergic person. I feel like [28:26] I need to know that [28:27] >> this is great. I mean, and it um I used [28:29] to get sleepy after eating eating [28:31] certain foods. I was like, what is this? [28:33] It was often dairy foods that would make [28:34] me and I thought, oh, it's tryptophan. [28:36] That turns out to be nonsense. there's [28:37] not enough tryptophan in dairy or turkey [28:39] relative to other things. [28:41] >> Um I see it kind of like itchy around my [28:43] eyebrows and um and people who are kind [28:46] of prone to autoimmune conditions like [28:48] people who have like for me if people [28:50] have a little bit of psoriasis or [28:52] something like that often times they'll [28:53] find that these foods are kind of [28:54] irritating to them. So I do that also [28:57] what I'm describing here it probably [28:59] costs less than a penny a day for this [29:01] enzyme. So it's a trivial a trivial [29:03] cost. [29:04] >> Um so let's see. And then in that meal [29:07] is when I take the lo the lvaza [29:09] multivitamin. Um [29:12] I do take um I do take a desiccated [29:16] liver. Um people have to be careful [29:19] about increasing iron load because it's [29:21] high in heem iron. But um I don't want [29:24] to eat liver. I have no interest in [29:25] eating liver. Um it it doesn't appeal to [29:28] me. Um but I take it for some of the [29:30] nutrients that are there. And then in [29:32] the evening, um, again, not a [29:34] promotional, but the sleep supplement [29:35] that's been far and away the best thing [29:37] for me is just to take AGZ, which is a [29:40] cocktail of things that I help them [29:41] create. So, it's got magnesium 3NA. [29:44] >> It um it's got the it's got the tart [29:47] cherry, it's got the all the extracts [29:48] and things combined. I take that and my [29:50] sleep's spectacular. It actually allowed [29:52] me to stop carrying around, you know, [29:55] bunch of different pills. I also um I [29:59] I've experimented with peptides and I [30:01] have been open about my experimentation [30:03] with some other things in kind of the [30:04] hormone and peptide [30:06] area. Maybe we separate that [30:08] conversation because what I just [30:10] described I I want to be very clear is [30:13] basically what I did between age gosh um [30:17] 20 you know plus or minus I mean ag [30:20] didn't exist and some things like that [30:21] but and um 45 at 45 I started to [30:25] experiment with a few other things um [30:28] but that's that um I have I will say I [30:31] if you want to have a conversation about [30:32] some of the tools especially here in uh [30:35] Silicon Valley that people are [30:36] experimenting with for focus and some of [30:38] the stimulant and nonstimulant [30:40] approaches to focus. Um, I've spent a [30:43] lot of time researching that and I've [30:44] spent some time experimenting with that [30:46] too. [30:46] >> What's something you recommend to others [30:48] but are not that good at following uh [30:51] yourself or what do you do that you know [30:53] is bad for you? [30:55] >> I think the social media thing might be [30:57] the biggest one. I recently moved um X [31:00] and Instagram to an separate phone [31:03] >> so that if people send me things I can't [31:05] open it [31:05] >> and then I keep that phone in a lock box [31:08] so that I say okay for an hour I'm going [31:11] on there and then it goes back into and [31:13] this is a supermax prison lock spot so [31:15] you can't you can't actually code out of [31:17] it. That's a little bit embarrassing for [31:19] me because I can control my behavior but [31:20] I did find that time would pass. [31:22] >> You're human. You're just like us. [31:24] >> Well the algorithms have gotten so good. [31:26] they've gotten so good and it's so [31:28] entertaining and it's also a little [31:30] different because I'm on there so I'm [31:33] interacting with it in a in a pretty [31:34] active way. Um [31:37] and I mean it's also just a weird [31:39] experience like to go online and see [31:41] like people saying stuff about you and [31:43] and then you're trying to like you know [31:45] explain things and trying to figure out [31:47] if they're in good faith or not and it [31:48] can really suck a lot of time. [31:50] >> Totally. So, I think that I think that [31:52] um that's probably the biggest one and [31:55] um it's the one that yeah, it carries [31:58] like a little bit of shame, right? We [31:59] should all be able to control our [32:01] behavior. So, why should I need a lock [32:03] box for my phone? On the other hand, I [32:06] feel like when it's in the lock box and [32:08] data support this, that if the phone is [32:10] out of the room or completely [32:12] inaccessible, [32:13] there's cognitive resources that become [32:15] available to you that are not if it's [32:17] even in your bag turned off under your [32:20] chair. This was a study that was done. [32:22] It's people can focus just as well, but [32:24] they need to use additional cognitive [32:25] resources to to have that level of [32:28] focus. This was looked at in a pretty [32:29] clever way in this study. So, I try and [32:31] keep the phone in another room and I [32:32] find that having it in the lock is a [32:34] whole other level of of inaccessibility [32:37] that I think serves me. [32:38] >> That totally checks out to me. Um, okay. [32:40] You distill health research for a living [32:43] and it's resulted in a lot of [32:45] recommendations and protocols. If you [32:47] had to say, if you had to recommend [32:49] three things to people ranked, no more [32:52] than three [32:53] >> to live a healthier life, what would [32:55] those three things be? [32:57] >> Great. um morning bright light ideally [33:00] from sunlight. So that would be in the [33:02] first 30 to 60 minutes after waking. If [33:04] you can't get it from sunlight, get a [33:05] 10,000 lux artificial light, then get [33:07] some sunlight if and when you can. So [33:09] that's number one. Next would be um do [33:13] the weight training protocol I talked [33:14] about earlier. It will completely change [33:16] your life. If women are concerned about [33:18] being too bulky, it's not going to do [33:19] that. But it's I mean in terms of body [33:20] recomposition, mood, brain health, [33:25] you know, you're not going to find a [33:26] more potent stimulus. And then the last [33:28] one would be um to figure out some way [33:33] to make the sleep you can get the [33:36] highest quality sleep. You know, I [33:38] sometimes get, you know, appropriately [33:40] attacked for, hey, you know, I've got [33:43] kids. I've got a busy job. You know, the [33:44] neighbors are always making noise. What [33:46] do I do? Find a two bed time to shoot [33:49] for most nights that um allows you to [33:52] get the most deep sleep. Don't miss that [33:54] window. And here I'm lumping in a [33:57] fourth, but really learn to get to sleep [34:00] and fall back asleep. You know, I'm not [34:02] going to say get perfect sleep because [34:04] you'd have to organize your whole life [34:06] around that. I'm going to say [34:08] do long exhale breathing to slow your [34:10] heart rate. Learn how to close your [34:12] eyes. And this sounds so kooky, but it's [34:15] grounded in what we understand about the [34:17] underlying circuitry. Um, moving your [34:20] eyes back and forth and up and down and [34:21] so forth when you're having a hard time [34:23] falling asleep because your mind is [34:24] racing will greatly help you fall [34:27] asleep. And it's not mysterious why. [34:29] It's because in order to fall asleep, [34:31] you need to forget about your body [34:32] position. And this confuses the [34:34] vestibular system. In fact, if I may, [34:36] one of the technologies that I'm most [34:38] excited about, and I'm hoping A6Z will [34:40] make this, but I don't have a company [34:41] related to this, are sleep masks that [34:44] induce sleep by controlling eye [34:47] movements in certain ways. [34:48] >> Interesting. [34:48] >> How cool would that be? And measure [34:50] rapid eye movement sleep and slow wave [34:52] sleep. I think that's the next wave of [34:53] technology that we all desperately need. [34:56] But the three things are, as I said, the [34:58] morning bright light. [34:59] >> Yep. [35:00] >> The resistance training. still do cardio [35:02] if you want, but that the resistance [35:03] training is the really sharp blade of of [35:05] of health improvement. And find a way in [35:10] your current circumstances [35:12] each night to get the highest quality [35:15] whatever 5 hours, 6 hours, ideally it's [35:18] 8 hours, but find know the the things [35:20] that you can do in the context of the [35:22] hotel room, the airplane that you happen [35:24] to be on. Figure those things out. Um, [35:28] and then you'll start to experience the [35:30] flexibility that comes from not fearing [35:32] that you didn't get the perfect night's [35:34] sleep. Like I'm fine on 6 hours because [35:36] I know how to regulate my energy during [35:38] the day if I just got six. [35:40] >> And I would love to get eight, but I [35:42] can't tell you the last time I got eight [35:44] solid hours without getting up once or [35:46] twice. This just doesn't happen. [35:48] >> We have a lot of founders who listen to [35:50] our podcast. If you had to also kind of [35:53] narrow it down to three pieces of [35:56] evidence-based habits for cognitive [35:58] performance for founders or anyone, what [36:01] would those things be? [36:02] >> Yeah. First one is know when your [36:04] windows of high cognitive capacity are. [36:09] This is different for everybody. So for [36:10] me, I can feel 11:00 a.m. come around. I [36:15] gosh, I wish it was 7:00 a.m. when this [36:16] happened. And I get up pretty early. I [36:18] should say I tend to get up between 6:00 [36:19] and 7:00 a.m. Sometimes if I go to sleep [36:22] at 9:00, I wake up at 5:00. Okay? If I [36:24] go to sleep at 10 or 11:00, I tend to [36:25] wake up at 7:00. So, it's just and I [36:28] wake up in the middle of the night like [36:29] I think most normal human beings, I use [36:31] the restroom and get back into bed 90% [36:34] of the nights in my life. Okay? So, [36:38] I know that in the morning I tend to [36:40] have a lot of sleep inertia. I need to [36:42] do these things. I'll do the exercise, [36:44] etc. But part of the reason I do that is [36:46] I know if I exercise before 9:00 a.m. I [36:49] have a lot more energy and focus for the [36:50] rest of the day. If I exercise at 11:00 [36:53] a.m., which is kind of the peak of my [36:55] morning energy, at 3:00 in the [36:57] afternoon, I'm exhausted. This is just [36:59] me, but other people might be different. [37:01] So, some people find that that peak for [37:05] work is lies at a certain time of the [37:08] day. For me, there's two times. It's [37:09] really between the hours of 9:30 a.m. [37:12] and 12:30 p.m. That window is crucial. [37:16] So, I have to be very careful that I'm [37:17] not exercising in that window because I, [37:20] like most founders, don't get paid to [37:22] exercise. This is very important. Like, [37:25] if you're going to do things for your [37:26] health, they have to support the other [37:28] areas of your life in a way that feed [37:30] back onto something where your company [37:32] succeeds and then you actually have the [37:34] resources to maybe change your schedule [37:36] someday. But otherwise, if people are [37:38] trying to just pack all these protocols [37:40] in, they're just going to deplete [37:42] themselves. So for me, it's 9:30 to [37:44] 12:30. That's one key window. Then I [37:47] tend to have a little bit of dip in [37:48] focus and cognition. And then for me, [37:51] somewhere in the late afternoon, right [37:53] around 4:30, 5:00 p.m., I start to get [37:56] another window that lasts until about 7 [37:59] p.m. or so, right before dinner. And I [38:01] have to capture that. And I've learned [38:03] that my mind is better at certain things [38:05] in those two windows. Again, this is [38:07] highly individual. For some people, it [38:08] might be the middle of the night. So, I [38:11] think knowing yourself, and this might [38:13] change across stages of life or life [38:15] circumstances, but knowing yourself and [38:17] really capturing those two and [38:19] protecting those times as if they were [38:21] the most important times of the day. So, [38:23] maybe only your family members and [38:26] co-workers can access you with [38:27] emergencies during that time or those [38:30] times. For most people, it's going to be [38:31] about twice a day. You might say, [38:33] "That's not enough time. That's 3 hours [38:34] of focused work and then maybe 3 hours [38:36] again in the afternoon or two or three. [38:38] I don't know many people that are [38:41] completely focused for eight or nine [38:42] hours a day without the next day being [38:44] completely shot. [38:45] >> I agree. [38:46] >> Especially if you use pharmarmacology [38:48] and we could talk about pharmarmacology. [38:50] Caffeine I sip on throughout the day as [38:52] I said till the afternoon. If I exercise [38:55] in the morning I tend to not need as [38:57] much caffeine in the afternoon. I just [38:59] hydrate electrolytes. A lot of people [39:01] will find that just hydrating better [39:03] will increase their alertness. Um, so [39:06] that's number one. Figure out when you [39:08] can exercise so that it gives you more [39:11] energy and protect those I call them [39:14] workabouts. I literally think of of real [39:16] work as a fight. My friend Rick Rubin [39:19] likes to wake up rather I wouldn't say [39:21] slowly but move into the day with a lot [39:24] of kind of peace and or you know and [39:26] kind of calmness and then his work block [39:28] generally is in the afternoon. And I [39:29] know this cuz I've spent a lot of time [39:30] with Rick. And that's when his mind is [39:32] sharpest and then he tapers off in the [39:34] evening. But he's working extremely hard [39:37] in those hours and he knows when those [39:39] fall. I'm a little different. Mine come [39:42] in two bouts, but they are like bouts. [39:44] You should think of them as a fight. And [39:46] here's the real the real danger. If you [39:50] you're in one of those windows and you [39:52] allow your attention to be captured by [39:54] something that's not worthwhile towards [39:55] your company build, you're losing ex [39:58] you're not just losing that 3 or 4 hours [40:00] because the the productivity that comes [40:02] in those three or four hours is [40:03] exponentially greater than the [40:05] productivity that comes from doing that [40:07] work at some point later or the catchup [40:09] work. It also prevents you from having a [40:11] healthy personal life. Mhm. [40:13] >> So you we you have to protect that time [40:16] as if uh it were the most important [40:18] thing with the exception of family [40:20] emergencies. Okay. So that's number one. [40:22] I think the other one is you know it [40:25] used to be in the valley I grew up down [40:27] here that everyone said you know no [40:30] successful founder uh you know is a [40:33] non-meditator or something or they all [40:35] meditate and I think like can that [40:38] really be true? Like are they all just [40:39] meditators? Um, I think that [40:44] what that's really about is that you [40:47] need to be pretty good at being in the [40:50] whole stimulus response mode of living [40:51] life. Like you have task, you're [40:53] handling tasks, you're organized. But I [40:55] think I do think that once a day, it's [40:57] very valuable, even if it's for just a [40:59] few minutes to just get out of stimulus [41:02] response and and going kind of inward [41:04] and checking with yourself whether or [41:06] not you're allocating your energy [41:08] properly. Some people are more prone to [41:10] getting pulled into conversations and [41:12] dramas and what they see. Um, sometimes [41:15] people will see things online. It has a [41:17] long tail in their nervous system. And [41:18] there's there data on this showing that [41:22] your thoughts in two hours are sort of [41:23] seated by what you saw in previous [41:25] hours. But some people have are more of [41:28] like square waves when they you know [41:29] they compartmentalize better. um other [41:32] people like myself, if I have a [41:33] conversation earlier that's of interest [41:35] to me, it it sort of lingers and it will [41:38] impact the next thing that that I do. [41:40] So, I think these these moments where [41:41] you just kind of check in and separate [41:43] yourself from all the inputs allows you [41:46] to to pivot more effectively. And so, we [41:49] don't really have formal protocols for [41:51] task switching, but this is extremely [41:53] important for company founders and [41:56] employees across the board, right? have [41:58] to be able to to cognitively task [42:01] switch. And so we need more more data on [42:04] how that's done. But it certainly [42:06] involves [42:08] re returning to some state where there [42:11] aren't any inputs. I think this is very [42:13] important. In fact, Rick and I have uh [42:15] been kicking around some um some tools [42:18] that are not meditations. We've been [42:20] trying to build some tools that are not [42:22] meditations. uh they're not yoga nidra, [42:24] but that would allow you to kind of [42:28] program your mind for what comes next. [42:31] Like like if you think about it, it's [42:32] 2026. Why in the world are we sitting [42:35] down to do work and just going, "Okay, [42:37] now I'm going to be focused and now I'm [42:39] going to be creative. Now I'm going to [42:40] like we should have ways to control [42:42] neural activity that would allow us to [42:45] access those circuits more quickly and [42:47] more deeply." I've been pitched on um a [42:49] headband that reduces like ADHD and [42:52] helps focus by sending waves through [42:55] your brain. [42:56] >> Yeah, I think it's going to be in part [42:58] by controlling activity. Um so it'll be [43:01] sort of general brain state oscillations [43:03] and things like that. I think it will I [43:06] like the idea that it will be [43:07] personalized [43:09] that you I like the idea that you hear [43:11] your own voice in your head maybe [43:13] through headphones telling you that [43:15] knows you knows where you're weak and [43:17] knows where you're strong and is and is [43:20] your own AI built coach that's telling [43:23] you how to create some blinders around [43:26] certain things and and organize your [43:28] focus or maybe to decompress from the [43:30] day and just completely relax which I'm [43:33] very excited excited about these [43:34] technologies, but mostly in the domain [43:36] of sleep and waking up because right now [43:39] we don't have the ideal tools. Maybe [43:40] this company does, but if you think [43:42] about a sleep mask that could put you to [43:43] sleep by virtue of I controlling your [43:45] eye movements is very easy to do with a [43:47] little bit of electrical stimulation [43:48] behind the ear. Yes, I'll tell you. [43:50] >> What's that Vegas nerve or something? [43:51] >> Well, you have branches of the Vegas [43:52] around the around the ear. There's some [43:54] other um vestib vestibular nerves that [43:57] because they inervate the inner ear that [43:59] that run superficially enough that that [44:01] you can do this and the extra ocular [44:03] muscles. [44:04] >> So I've actually had the chance to try [44:07] one of these sleep masks and for me it [44:09] was 6 minutes I'm out. It can also wake [44:13] you up which is really interesting. I [44:15] mean maybe it would deliver the proper [44:17] lighting you know these kinds of things. [44:19] Yeah. So that the transitions into and [44:21] out of sleep I think are going to be are [44:23] going to be the first place where the [44:26] neurochnologies really conquer the [44:28] challenge because we know exactly what [44:30] you need. You need to be asleep. [44:32] >> Mhm. [44:32] >> Okay. You need to be awake. You need to [44:34] be alert. When it comes to okay, now [44:36] we're going to sit down and and do this [44:38] type of task. We're still not clear what [44:40] the patterns of brain activity that you [44:42] want really are. Like for focus, you [44:45] want to be alert but not too alert, [44:47] right? It's the inverted U-shaped [44:48] function that over that hump you [44:50] >> highly distractable, right? Too sleepy, [44:53] you're highly distractable. It's that [44:54] sweet spot. [44:55] >> So, I think that that's a really [44:57] exciting area of neurochnology. And [45:00] again, it'll happen first with sleep. [45:02] And also with AI, it will be able to to [45:04] calibrate and say, oh, you know, we we [45:06] need to make the eye eye deflections um [45:08] broader in order to induce when you're [45:11] in this particular state. [45:13] >> Um [45:14] >> yeah, I'm super excited by this. Um, so [45:17] you asked about tools for founders. I [45:19] think that, right? I think that [45:21] organizing your day in a way that is [45:24] tailored to what's most important to [45:26] you, right? So setting personal life [45:27] differences aside, you need to get your [45:30] best work done twice a day. You need to [45:32] treat yourself like an athlete. You [45:34] know, it occurred to me when I was [45:35] running a lab, but also when I was a [45:37] posttock, like if I get to bed earlier [45:39] at a conference, I'm going to be sharper [45:41] the next day at the conference. [45:42] Conferences were really important to me [45:44] then. Um, likewise with doing [45:46] experiments, I can get twice as many [45:47] experiments in as everybody else, [45:50] not just by working really hard one day, [45:52] but I'm getting an extra hour of work [45:55] done. Of course, I was also the person [45:57] I'd sometimes bring my experiments to [45:58] seminars. I was like, this is crazy. I [46:01] need to run some immunotochemistry. Why [46:02] wouldn't I bring it to the seminar? I'd [46:04] heard someone else did that. I was like, [46:05] I'm going to just bring my trays and [46:07] transfer. So, you know, if everyone [46:09] started doing that, it'd be problematic. [46:10] But the point is that if you take [46:12] yourself and your work really seriously, [46:14] you need to organize your day that way. [46:16] I do think that having one day per week [46:18] where you just comp completely disengage [46:21] from things can be very beneficial for [46:23] your ability to re-engage. You know, my [46:25] dad's a scientist and has been involved [46:27] in worked at Xerox Park for a long time [46:29] and now he's doing other things. But [46:31] long ago, he said, you know, you you [46:33] have to be a long-distance runner. Like [46:36] this is this is an endurance event. [46:38] >> I agree. So, the best advice I ever got, [46:40] and this will be the last piece on this, [46:42] is there was a neurologist out at um UC [46:44] Berkeley and UCSF, [46:47] um Bob Knight some years ago, very [46:49] talented, and um I asked him for advice. [46:52] I was starting graduate school, and he [46:54] said, "Figure out the maximum amount of [46:57] real work that you can do every day [47:00] consistently, and then figure out some [47:02] non-destructive way to reset yourself [47:04] every single week." I thought, "Okay." [47:06] Okay. And for me at that time, I could [47:08] work very very long hours. I said, "How [47:10] do you reset?" He's he said he he likes [47:12] fishing. I'm okay with fishing, but I'm [47:14] not into I I know what I like. I like to [47:15] hike. I like to get into nature and [47:17] spend time with people while I do it. [47:19] So, I figured out I could work x number [47:21] of hours per day, 5 days a week. [47:23] Sometimes a little trough in the middle [47:25] of the week. And I just stuck to it for, [47:28] you know, 25 years. If you people who [47:31] take a ton of stimulants and just blitz, [47:33] blitz, blitz, blitz, blitz, these are [47:35] the same people that crash and [47:38] disappear. So, you have to figure out [47:40] and build your capacity. Um, and I think [47:43] we don't talk about that enough because [47:45] people really differ in in this regard. [47:47] But yes, you have to work extremely [47:49] hard. You have to be extremely focused, [47:51] but you also have to figure out how long [47:52] you can keep this up.