窦文涛马未都解析阶层突围 称底层靠极度勤勉与逢迎破局

窦文涛马未都解析阶层突围 称底层靠极度勤勉与逢迎破局 优越家境因缺乏生存危机而削弱竞争野心，真正促成阶层跃升的是底层焦虑所激发的专注勤勉与社交周旋能力。 节目围绕人际社交中的“拍马屁”与个体的成长背景展开深入探讨。窦文涛与马未都从元代“拍马屁”的词源、老北京餐馆“撂高儿”的处世绝活，剖析了逢迎背后惊人的记忆力门槛与情商分寸，并将其升华为主观发现他人美德的内省修行。随后，嘉宾们结合自身经历，尖锐对比了部队大院子弟与平民、小镇“凤凰女”在自卑感、公共羞耻心与行事格局上的性格烙印，反思家族历史与时代大洗牌对人格的深远塑造。对谈最后落在阶层跨越的代价、恶人与狠人的勤奋，以及目标与无法企及的“理想”之间的本质分野。 窦文涛与马未都探讨人际吹捧与逢迎的心理机制，认为成熟社交中的互相赞赏并非单纯虚伪，而是重塑认知、主动发掘他人优点的“修养”与社交润滑剂。 (0:00) 词语“拍马屁”考证源于元代蒙古骑兵习俗，在四等人的等级压迫下异化为汉人不论良莠皆盲目逢迎的自保与谄媚姿态。 (4:25) 周轶君坦言作为“凤凰女”的童年自卑感构成了成年后奋进的最强动力，而窦文涛对比指出平民与大院子弟在心理底色与公共空间表达欲上存在鲜明差异。 (21:55) 马未都界定“目标”与“理想”的本质界限：凡是现实中能够实现并完成的只能称作目标，真正的理想在本质上应当是不可企及但永恒指引前行的彼岸。 (50:11)

窦文涛与马未都等嘉宾在对谈中剖析了“逢迎”这一社交行为的演变，进而深入探讨了原生家庭、阶层出身与心理烙印对个人行事风格及人生轨迹的深远影响。 奉承心态的演进与社交技术门槛 (0:00) 窦文涛坦言早年因自尊与笨拙而抗拒说好话，但随着阅历增长，他发现长辈间习惯性的赞美并非虚伪，而是一种主动发现他人优点的认知进化。马未都指出成熟群体在社交中依赖相互赞美来润滑人际关系，并讲述了刘震云用连续三天赞美让王朔放下防备的趣事。二人还梳理了“拍马屁”在元代的起源：蒙古人拍马臀致意，被统治阶层为讨好统治者而不分优劣盲目模仿，演化出一种卑躬屈膝的心理与体态遗产。 然而，高级的逢迎与低劣谄媚存在本质差异。马未都介绍，晚清老北京餐饮业被称为“撂高儿”的前厅人物，其绝活并非油嘴滑舌，而是依靠过目不忘的记忆力记住客人的光顾时间与背景细节，并在言辞上“永远居于对方半步之下”，既保全客人面子又守住界限。这种高情商周旋在当代名利场中依然常见，比如企业高管在无名单提示下一字不差背出数十位官员头衔，这类高段位迎合门槛极高，往往建立在出色的智力与分寸感之上。 出身烙印：凤凰女的逃离与大院底色 (21:55) 谈及原生家庭与性格塑造，周轶君表示童年源于湖北铁路大院的自卑感和沉闷宿命，是驱动自己打破阶层、不断前行的最大动力。童年时期在广州亲戚家挑旧衣服时感受到的屈辱，在她心底埋下了讨好型人格与强烈的逃离渴望，但祖母关于“拼命读书以抵御平庸与孤独”的教育帮助她化解了成长期的极端自怜。相较于平民出身者的隐忍，窦文涛观察到部分大院或优渥背景的子弟在公共场合往往具有强烈的“C位”意识，遇事倾向于当众宣泄情绪，认为社会理应包容自己。 针对这种“背景决定论”，柯蓝提出了不同视角。她反驳将任性归咎于大院出身，指出那个时代体制实行绝对公有制，干部家庭没有私产概念，且需接济老家庞大家族，生活极为节俭。家庭背景仅体现家教底色，同一家庭走出的孩子人格特质也截然不同，无法模式化归因。嘉宾们同时反思了《人民的名义》中的祁同伟，指出其悲剧本质在于敬畏心与知耻感的家教缺失，而非单纯的寒门出身。 地缘差异、算账逻辑与底层韧性 (39:00) 地缘与社会结构差异对人的精神状态有着明显塑造。窦文涛自嘲河北人骨子里因长久衬托北京而带有强烈的卑微感，遇到不公习惯隐忍退让；而北京青年在霹雳舞大赛遭遇不公评判时，跳完高难度动作后直接拂袖而去、拒不配合潜规则。马未都将这种反差联系到“老炮儿”的精神内核，即“做事不计成本”，这与现代功利社会凡事精密“算账”的做派形成鲜明对比。但也有嘉宾指出，小地方出身的人具有公共羞耻感，害怕因琐事麻烦公众；而优渥阶层往往缺乏争夺的狠劲，反倒是出身草根、被生存危机感驱动的人在现实竞争中更具韧劲。 历史的洗牌进一步打破了既有阶层固化。嘉宾通过祖辈从赤贫渔民出海涉险积累股份、供长孙读书并投笔从戎经历解放战争的家族史，说明近代百年战火重塑了门第结构。而在荒诞的现实中，挂着显赫家世名头的“红二代”在河北煤老板买单的饭局上赋诗谋生，展现了血统光环在财富与时代变迁下的瓦解。在个人上升路径中，出身普通者若秉持专注与精进，其爆发出的勤勉与狠劲往往能超越缺乏自律的优渥阶层。 理想的界限与职业生存困境 (50:11) 对话最后转向个人的精神追求与职业生存状态。面对蒋方舟将写出满意作品作为理想并坚持自尊高于财富的选择，马未都厘清了“目标”与“理想”的概念界限：目标是可以实际执行并完成的具体任务，而理想在本质上应当是不可企及的，其价值恰恰在于作为一个永远无法达到的灯塔，持续拉动人向前迈进。 窦文涛则剖析了自身长期身处公众传媒行业的深层矛盾。他坦言出镜表达对自己而言始终伴随着暴露与自我推销的不适感，其终极职业目标实际上是彻底退休，但这一诉求又受制于物质积累的现实门槛。座谈在对务实目标达成与坚守真诚理想的期许中收尾。 本场对话展示了从表面逢迎艺术到深层阶层心理的跨度探讨，展现了家庭与地域环境对人格的深刻塑造；然而关于天生禀赋与后天环境何者更具决定性，以及个人能否彻底摆脱原生阶层心理烙印，嘉宾们并未得出单一结论。

窦文涛与嘉宾围绕赞美与逢迎的人际功能、阶层与地域对性格的塑造机制，以及阶层流动背后的心理烙印展开深度探讨。节目指出，看似虚伪的奉承可以转化为发现他人优点的认知修行，而底层个体的自卑与隐忍既催生了拼搏韧劲，也与优渥背景者的洒脱任性形成鲜明反差。 赞美的内化与逢迎的技艺门槛 (0:00) 窦文涛回顾了自身从刻板冷漠到习惯夸奖他人的转变。他指出，年长者聚会中的互赞起初显得虚伪，但长期践行却能重塑认知回路，使人本能地专注于他人的优点与美好，形成一种内在修行。马未都结合昔日文学编辑经历说明，面对心高气傲的作家圈，相互吹捧是必要的润滑剂；他援引作家刘震云在食堂连续三天当面赞美王朔、最终攻破其防线的往事，揭示了人性深处对赞美的难以抗拒。然而，社会上对“老师”等称谓的滥用则反映了尊称的通胀与廉价化。 探讨进一步追溯了“拍马屁”的词源与技术壁垒。马未都与窦文涛指出，该词源于元代汉人对蒙古统治阶层骑马习俗的盲目迎合，反映了阶级压迫下骨子里的谦卑与身体前倾的姿态。真正的逢迎并非拙劣谄媚，而是需要极高情商与记忆力支撑的专业门槛。例如晚清至民国老北京餐饮业中被称为“撂高儿”的堂倌，凭借过目不忘的本领熟记熟客的家世背景、交往细节，并在言辞分寸上永远居于顾客“半步之下”，既保全了客人体面又守住了界限。相比之下，当代低段位的奉承往往因张冠李戴（如错认演员角色或名字）而演变为社交灾难。 原生烙印：平民自卑与大院底气 (21:55) 嘉宾深入剖析了出身阶层与地缘文化对个人性格的长久塑造。周轶君将自己定义为来自封闭铁路大院的“凤凰女”，坦言童年时期随母亲去优渥亲戚家挑旧衣服时感受到的屈辱自卑，虽塑造了其讨好型人格，但也成为日后拼命逃离原生环境、打破阶层固化的核心动力。窦文涛则以石家庄农村出身为例，指出河北人在地缘上次生于北京的宿命感，造就了其隐忍克制、习惯放低身段“陪聊”，以及极度害怕占用公共资源的羞耻感。他以早年全国霹雳舞大赛为例，对比了外地队伍面对不公潜规则时的默默顺从，与北京选手跳完后冷笑拂袖而去的狂傲洒脱。 柯蓝与马未都对这种“阶层特质”展开了多重视角补充与反驳。针对窦文涛对“北京大院子弟习惯当中心、任性宣泄情绪”的观察，柯蓝强调家庭背景不应成为个人性格缺陷的挡箭牌；她回顾建国后大院体制内部一切家具均为公产、老一辈极度节俭的客观事实，主张家风家教而非特权环境才是个体底线的决定因素。马未都则引入国际纯种犬认证中三代性格稳定的硬指标，指出人类同样具有遗传性的先天性格底色，但人类的独特性在于后天遭遇社会碰撞与碰壁后，会不断对自身性情进行修正与收敛。 功利算计、阶层镜像与荒诞错位 (30:37) 马未都将老派“老炮儿”的文化精神界定为“做事不计成本”，这与现代商业社会凡事精密算账、稍有不划算便抽身甚至背信弃义的功利风气形成鲜明对照。嘉宾提及网络热文《寒门难出贵子》中银行HR的招聘观察，生动勾勒出阶层出身在职场初期投射的众生相：寒门子弟勤勉却拘谨被动，干部子弟熟稔体制人情、眼力极强，而知识分子子弟则清高自负。针对《人民的名义》中祁同伟式的底层攀爬者，嘉宾认为其悲剧不在于贫穷，而在于家庭教育中精神敬畏与知耻感的缺失，导致其在追求跃升的过程中毫无底线，体现出“坏人往往因目标极致单一而最为勤奋”的残酷现实。 谈话还剖析了中国近百年历史剧变带来的阶层重组与当下错位。近代战乱与革命打破了传统门当户对的结构，促成了盐商名门与九死一生赤贫军人的结合。然而，这种血脉流动在当代也衍生出奇特的荒诞景象：有嘉宾目睹多位以开国元勋后代自居的“红二代”聚餐，现场由一位河北煤老板买单，名门之后端着架子朗诵粗浅诗歌以换取宴席招待。这一幕彻底剥离了血统光环在金钱与时代剧变面前的虚妄外衣。 职业撕裂、精神突围与理想界定 (46:37) 在探讨个体如何抵御外部压力与内心动荡时，周轶君分享了祖母的教诲：在重男轻女且自身容貌平凡的环境中，唯有读书是女性抵御孤立、建立独立人格的捷径；通过在书籍中见证历史大人物的沉浮，个人的微小挫折便能被迅速释怀。窦文涛则反思了自身作为公众人物的内在精神撕裂——尽管深耕于需要暴露自我的电视行业，但他骨子里始终保留着传统农民耕作一亩三分地的知足心态，对自我宣传深感不适，其职业生涯的终极诉求其实是积累足够的物质安全感后彻底退休。 对话最后厘清了物质欲望、个人尊严与终极追求的关系。蒋方舟坚持将文学创作的自我认可置于财富积累之上，并选择践行低欲望的简单生活。马未都则对“目标”与“理想”进行了概念划界：他认为凡是通过具体规划能够执行并达成的事项只能称为“目标”；真正的“理想”在本质上应当是不可企及的，其价值恰恰在于作为一座悬挂在远方的恒久灯塔，永无止境地拉动个体保持前行，从而在世俗的名利争逐中维系一份纯粹与清醒。 本期节目通过对奉承社交、家庭出身与阶层心理的跨代际剖白，揭示了个体性格既是家族血脉与时代规训的产物，也是在不断碰壁中向内修剪的结果。嘉宾们虽然肯定了自卑感驱动奋斗的积极意义，并呼吁在功利社会中坚守精神敬畏与不可企及的崇高理想，但对于出身寒门者如何在向上攀爬的过程中平衡生存焦虑与道德底线，对谈仍留下了未竟的现实追问。

[50:11] Ma Weidu: I believe that an ideal is something unattainable by nature. Anything that can be achieved shouldn't be called an ideal; that's called a goal. [1:43] Ma Weidu: No matter how you say it, middle-aged folks aren’t comfortable being lectured, unless they’re very close to you. [6:48] Ma Weidu: Chinese people don't think anyone is lower in the social hierarchy. [21:55] 周轶君: 我肯定是凤凰女的自卑，促成了我的成长，绝对是的。

[0:00] I started out as a sycophant, you see. I [0:02] feel that sucking up to people is [0:04] actually a form of self-cultivation. [0:06] >> It's not that, I didn't mean my [0:08] background was actually sycophancy, I [0:10] don't... [0:10] >> You, listen to me, I was speaking a bit [0:12] too fast. What I mean is, years ago, I [0:15] had a very cold face, like a stone mask [0:17] . [0:18] I wouldn't smile when meeting people, so [0:20] many thought I was just judging by [0:22] appearances. [0:24] I didn't think that was good, you know? [0:26] Of course, sometimes when I needed a [0:28] favor, I couldn't bring myself to suck [0:30] up to people; I just couldn't say it. [0:33] >> But later, I noticed that the friends I [0:35] associated with were mostly older people [0:37] , like Brother Ma here. [0:40] Later, I realized that when we ate [0:42] together, I would sometimes ask him, " [0:44] Why does our group always spend time [0:46] praising each other?" [0:48] He gave a very interesting answer. [0:51] He said, "Because we're older and more [0:53] mature, so we only say nice things to [0:55] one another." [0:59] At first, I found it a bit sickening to [1:01] always have to say good things when [1:02] meeting people, but you know, when you [1:04] praise others, this external behavior [1:06] gradually changes your habits. [1:11] It’s human nature. [1:14] >> Once you get used to it, what kind of [1:16] person do you really become? [1:18] Your eyes become very sensitive; you see [1:20] the good in people the moment you meet [1:22] them. [1:23] Xiao Qing has been looking good lately; [1:25] I can’t even see her flaws anymore. [1:28] To me, this is the level of a [1:29] Bodhisattva. It's like a reflex. When I [1:32] see someone, if you ask me to find their [1:34] faults, I have to actually think about [1:36] it. [1:37] My first instinct is to see their good [1:39] side—only their good side—which is a [1:41] form of inner evolution. [1:43] >> I think your mindset is perhaps a bit [1:45] old; I’m still too young. [1:48] I... [1:51] >> I know our social circle is all about [1:52] teasing and poking fun at each other, [1:54] including the friends we meet regularly [1:56] . [2:00] >> Sometimes you come to a meal wondering [2:02] what you did wrong and why you're even [2:04] eating with these people. [2:06] For example, the most common topic at [2:08] our dinners is astrology, like "Taurus [2:10] is great," or "Scorpio is lecherous and [2:13] shameless." Oh, you're a Pisces? Oh, [2:16] Pisces are great, Pisces! The ultimate " [2:19] scum" sign, the elite of the scumbags. [2:23] While other signs win people over with [2:25] virtue, you guys win by lacking it. [2:28] >> An Aries grows a head just to look [2:30] taller. Right, oh my, if you’re an Aries [2:32] , you should find a Scorpio, maybe have [2:35] a "Scaries" child. [2:37] That’s why I finally understand why we [2:38] don't have any young people here. [2:41] >> Is this, is this another approach? It’s [2:43] another approach. Master Ma and his [2:45] group back in the day, they were the [2:46] type who could really heap on the praise [2:48] . [2:48] >> Right, exactly. Deep down, people like [2:50] hearing nice things. [2:52] No matter how you say it, middle-aged [2:54] folks aren’t comfortable being lectured [2:56] , unless they’re very close to you. [2:58] Back then, because we were all writers— [3:00] I have to say, when I was an editor, I [3:02] dealt with writers—writers are generally [3:05] quite proud and aloof. Most writers [3:07] think they’re better than everyone else [3:08] . [3:09] >> Right? [3:10] >> That’s normal. [3:12] >> It’s normal, but it’s actually quite [3:14] abnormal when a bunch of writers are all [3:15] together. [3:17] So what can you do? Just shower each [3:19] other with compliments. [3:20] >> Hmm. [3:21] >> I’ve mentioned this before. Liu Zhenyun [3:22] loved to set traps, specifically for [3:25] Wang Shuo. "Wang, your novels are really [3:27] excellent." Wang would reply, "No, I [3:29] can't write, it’s not good, really not [3:31] good," and move on. [3:33] Every day at lunch—back then we had [3:35] meetings, so we’d eat in the cafeteria— [3:37] and the cafeteria wasn't like today, it [3:39] was just everyone carrying their own [3:41] individual tray. [3:42] The next day, he’d say the same thing. " [3:44] Wang, I truly think your novels are [3:46] great." Wang: "Really, they’re not good [3:48] ." The third day, same thing: "Wang, I [3:51] really mean it, your novels are truly [3:53] well-written." Teacher Liu had another [3:55] secret move. [3:56] >> Hmm. [3:57] >> He’d start by saying, "Little Liu thinks [3:59] you write really well." [4:01] >> That’s so hypocritical. He started using [4:03] other people's names later on. [4:06] >> Then, by the third day, Wang Shuo would [4:08] finally say, "I do think my novels are [4:11] pretty good." [4:13] And I was sitting right there at the [4:14] table. [4:17] Liu Zhenyun would immediately change his [4:19] tune and say to me, "Most people can [4:20] only hold out for three days before they [4:22] fall for the flattery, right?" [4:25] >> Friends were just joking around, but [4:27] that kind of flattery became quite [4:29] vulgar for a while, and eventually, this [4:30] vulgarity turned into a social trend [4:32] where everyone started calling each [4:34] other "Teacher." [4:35] >> Hmm. [4:35] >> Right, isn't that how it is now? [4:37] >> Nowadays everyone calls everyone " [4:38] Teacher." I’m still not used to some [4:40] young girl coming up to me and calling [4:42] me "Teacher" this or that. In terms of [4:44] this social trend, all titles in China [4:46] are becoming mundane and increasingly [4:48] vulgar. I’m really not used to it, [4:50] though I don’t care what people call me [4:51] . Call me teacher if you like, but in [4:53] the past, titles like Mr. Zhang or Mr. [4:55] Li were already honorifics. Why call [4:57] someone teacher? A teacher must have [4:59] something to teach you, and some people [5:01] simply have nothing to offer. [5:04] >> You're talking about...well, "sucking up [5:06] " or "flattering." [5:09] I actually looked into where that term [5:10] came from the other day. [5:13] >> From the Yuan Dynasty. [5:15] >> The Mongols conquered this land and [5:17] established a hierarchy. [5:19] Mongols were first-class citizens, [5:21] Northern Han Chinese were third-class, [5:23] and Southern Han were relegated to the [5:25] fourth class. [5:26] So, they had to curry favor with the [5:28] Mongols. As for the Mongols, they were a [5:31] nomadic people, and a way they expressed [5:33] mutual respect was by patting each [5:34] other’s horses on the rump. [5:37] It was a sign of respect, or rather, it [5:39] was their custom: when you saw someone [5:41] riding a horse, you’d pat the horse’s [5:43] rump and praise it, which was a way of [5:45] praising the rider. [5:46] >> And so, the Han people, who were then [5:49] subjects, wanted to please the Mongols. [5:51] They would just go around, regardless of [5:53] whether you were riding a good horse or [5:55] a bad one, or even a donkey, just pat, [5:56] pat, pat, patting away. So it is said [5:58] that the term "pattng a horse's rump"( [6:00] flattery) originated this way. [6:03] Talking about the etymology, it actually [6:05] has something to do with a certain [6:06] personality of self-abasement and a [6:08] slavish mindset. [6:10] Why is that? Foreigners also value [6:12] praise in their social interactions, but [6:14] I always have the impression that when [6:16] they praise each other, they do so with [6:18] their heads held high. [6:19] >> Hmm. [6:20] >> It feels dignified and confident. [6:23] >> Polite. [6:23] >> Right, very graceful. Why do I always [6:26] feel—look at my spine—I feel my head is [6:28] always leaning forward. [6:31] If you look at me from the side, I’ve [6:33] noticed my spine has been bent for years [6:35] . [6:36] I wonder if it’s related to this? [6:39] That’s how I interpret it. [6:41] >> This is truly an animal instinct, a [6:43] primal nature. [6:44] >> Whoever is authoritative, whoever holds [6:47] the power. [6:48] That’s just an instinct. [6:53] There’s a phenomenon discovered by [6:55] anthropologists: whether a child is [6:57] biological or not—including adopted [6:59] children—they will gradually start to [7:01] look like the male head of the household [7:03] . [7:07] >> Hmm. [7:09] >> This is an evolutionary trait; they [7:11] strive to adapt. [7:14] In the animal kingdom, if you are a [7:16] spotted... [7:19] >> If you are suddenly in our family, for [7:21] instance, if you are different, you will [7:24] be ostracized. [7:27] You will try hard to grow in that [7:28] direction so you won't be killed. [7:31] This is long-term human evolution. Yes, [7:34] and regarding what you said, you have to [7:36] notice people's internal changes. Just [7:38] like I said before, don't think flattery [7:40] is just hypocritical; flattery also [7:42] changes your inner self. [7:43] >> I've seen it too. A leader was [7:45] practicing calligraphy, and it was [7:47] terrible; the brush even tore through [7:48] the paper. Then the secretary said, " [7:50] Wow, excellent, the ink truly penetrates [7:53] the paper!" It’s completely subconscious [7:55] ; they didn't even think about it. It [7:56] was truly subconscious, and they really [7:58] felt it was good. Yeah, they really did [8:01] . Do you think you would, Li Ying? I [8:03] believe they only have feelings for [8:04] themselves. [8:06] That meticulous way of serving is [8:08] different from the relationship between [8:09] leaders and employees we have today. [8:12] That was a servant relationship; this is [8:14] a work relationship. [8:17] And in the old culture, there was a [8:18] complete set of servant culture, which [8:20] we have lost now; it's gone. [8:23] China, first of all, has no caste system [8:25] , unlike India. India's social [8:27] governance is much easier than ours [8:29] because they are divided into four tiers [8:31] . Right, we are like a pancake, always [8:33] one layer. Cities are the same. [8:35] Beijing's traffic is like a pancake, the [8:37] first, second, third, and fourth ring [8:39] roads all nested, so it's very heavy. [8:41] Chinese people don't think anyone is [8:43] lower in the social hierarchy. [8:45] Everyone has this attitude; others [8:47] basically don't have it, but we all do, [8:49] it's called being the masters of the [8:51] house. I was told since I was born to be [8:53] the master of the house, but suddenly [8:55] there were no skills, none at all, so I [8:57] didn't learn. I really don't know how to [8:59] flatter; I've never done it. At first, I [9:02] especially hated cringey words. I felt [9:04] they weren't things humans would say. [9:06] How could they say them? But they could [9:08] say them, and those officials would [9:10] actually accept them. [9:11] >> Mm. [9:12] >> I'm talking about some big officials, [9:14] but they have all been dealt with now, [9:16] so we won't name them. [9:18] Others spoke that way, and I felt it was [9:20] so hypocritical. I thought such flattery [9:22] was very hypocritical, but they didn't [9:24] feel it was. [9:25] >> Right. [9:25] >> They are very used to it, yes. [9:28] >> Mr. Ma just mentioned that this [9:30] hierarchical system was actually [9:31] reasonable for a long time in the past. [9:34] It also led to the past, for example, [9:37] restaurants. The simplest example is [9:39] restaurants. Mm. [9:41] >> Back in the day, the restaurant servers [9:43] . [9:45] >> Right. [9:46] >> The relationship between server and [9:48] guest was a very stable one. [9:51] " [9:51] >> You are here to bring me money." [9:53] >> So, they would serve you from the bottom [9:55] of their hearts. [9:58] >> But after the liberation, that [10:00] relationship changed because they became [10:02] "the masters," which is why in Beijing [10:04] in the 80s, some restaurants even had [10:06] signs saying "No beating customers [10:08] without reason." [10:10] Yes, that actually happened. [10:13] >> And that made it very difficult for the [10:15] industry to survive. [10:20] But now, there's this rural-urban divide [10:22] ; we recruit servers from the [10:24] countryside, they get a salary, they [10:26] know what to do here, they undergo all [10:27] kinds of training—etiquette training and [10:30] more. [10:34] >> And training on local specialties. [10:37] For example, I went to a Shandong [10:39] restaurant. [10:41] Inside, they actually...I only ate there [10:43] once, and they sent me a text: "I'm your [10:45] dedicated server; just look for me next [10:47] time you come or want to book a table." [10:49] Oh, and I later found that this girl was [10:51] just incredibly enthusiastic. Is she [10:53] pretty? [10:54] >> She’s quite pretty. [10:55] >> Is she the type who calls you "big [10:56] brother" to be intimate? [10:58] >> Yes, "Big brother, have you seen this [11:00] today, what's new today..." [11:02] " [11:02] >> What we bought today..." Right. [11:03] >> Yes, people in the north are quite [11:05] outgoing. Hmm. [11:08] >> But, later on, I couldn't go to that [11:10] place anymore, because whether I brought [11:12] a female colleague, a girlfriend, or my [11:14] niece, whenever I went... [11:17] >> Did she call them all "sister-in-law"? [11:19] >> Yes, "sister-in-law." [11:22] >> She would always—it’s not sister-in-law [11:24] , she didn't remember, there was only [11:26] one server. [11:29] >> Which sister-in-law is it today? [11:32] >> In the past, before the liberation... [11:34] >> The restaurant industry really only [11:36] started to flourish after the late Qing [11:38] Dynasty. In a metropolis like Beijing, [11:40] there was a very important role at the [11:41] entrance called the "Liaogao." [11:43] >> It’s actually called "Liaogao," meaning [11:45] to gaze into the distance. [11:48] >> Just one look. " [11:49] >> Boss is here!" They would spot you from [11:51] far away. [11:52] >> The thing is, this "Liaogao" isn't just [11:54] a silver-tongued talker, and it’s not [11:56] just about having high emotional [11:58] intelligence—though that’s surely [12:00] required. [12:02] His most important skill is memory; as [12:04] long as you've been there once, he [12:05] remembers when you came last, and why [12:07] you came. [12:09] He remembers everything. "Boss, your [12:10] grandson's one-month birthday is coming [12:13] up, right? Last time you were here for [12:14] ..." [12:15] " [12:15] >> I’ll help you arrange the full-month [12:17] feast." He’d have it all covered. He [12:19] wouldn't say, if you brought a new [12:21] girlfriend, "Oh, this isn't the same [12:23] person as last time." [12:24] He definitely wouldn't say that. He is [12:26] exceptionally good at speaking, always [12:28] hitting the mark perfectly—positioning [12:30] himself just half a step below you. He [12:32] doesn't lower himself too far, which [12:33] would make you uncomfortable; he stays [12:35] just half a step below. You are the [12:37] master, and he is the servant. These [12:39] high-level people used to earn a lot of [12:41] money because they had a good memory; [12:42] memory can be profitable. [12:44] >> Because he remembers things well, many [12:45] people say. Actually, he might have only [12:47] gone there three times, but he'd say, " [12:49] I own that restaurant, I go there to eat [12:50] all the time." In the past, dining at [12:52] such a restaurant was a big deal, [12:53] especially if you brought guests along. [12:54] See? "Boss Dou is here again!" Hearing [12:56] that makes you happy, doesn't it? Others [12:58] would say, "Where do you always go to [12:59] eat? You must be rich." [13:01] >> Yeah. [13:02] >> He positions all his words perfectly; [13:04] this must be a talent of theirs. [13:06] >> This is high-level flattery. [13:08] >> High-level flattery is undetectable. [13:09] >> It's invisible. Once you can spot it, [13:11] it's no longer effective flattery. [13:12] >> I think it has to do with age. I feel [13:14] like young people today really don't [13:16] seem to know how to do it. [13:20] So I think this high-level flattery is [13:22] still very applicable in today's society [13:24] . [13:25] Sometimes they say it’s a form of [13:27] positive energy, showing that you have [13:29] others in your heart. And honestly, they [13:31] say this isn't stupid at all; it’s [13:33] actually very smart. I once saw one of [13:36] our managers do it. [13:37] We were having dinner with the city [13:39] government. [13:40] I was deeply impressed; I thought it was [13:42] truly a special gift. [13:44] People like that have no reason not to [13:46] be popular. [13:48] We were at a long table for the meeting [13:49] . [13:50] Then came the card exchange—swapping [13:53] cards left and right. [13:55] After the city leaders spoke, it was our [13:57] side's turn. [13:59] He stood up and said, "Respected Mayor [14:01] so-and-so..." [14:03] "... [14:03] >> Secretary so-and-so, Director so-and-so [14:05] ," listing dozens of names. [14:07] >> I've seen this type of person too. [14:09] >> The room just exploded with warm [14:10] applause. It was as if he’d just looked [14:12] at those business cards. [14:13] >> This... [14:14] >> So this really depends on IQ. If you [14:16] have a poor memory, you can't do it. [14:18] >> You know, flattery is like this—it's [14:20] actually a mutually reinforcing culture [14:21] . For example, I don't like to flatter [14:23] others, and I don't like it when others [14:25] flatter me. The moment someone tries, I [14:27] know it immediately. [14:28] >> But there are some who aren't like that [14:29] . I've seen extreme flattery—this boss, [14:32] a big boss, famous on the lists and [14:34] everything. Yeah. [14:35] >> Then he asked to meet me. When he [14:36] invited me over, I went to his hotel [14:38] lobby to wait for him. It was his hotel [14:40] lobby, mind you. It turned out he went [14:42] to the gym. He immediately messaged me, [14:44] "Sorry, I'm working out, I'll be right [14:46] back, just wait in the lobby." I waited [14:48] in the lobby for five minutes, and then [14:49] he walked in. After he came in, he was [14:52] wearing a stylish tracksuit. [14:54] He had an overcoat on. [14:56] As soon as he walked in and saw me, he [14:58] gave his shoulders a shake, and someone [15:00] behind him caught the coat. [15:02] It reminded me of a Stephen Chow movie. [15:04] It was definitely more spectacular than [15:06] a movie. [15:07] >> A shake of the shoulders, and someone [15:08] caught it. If I didn't look behind me, [15:10] if I tried to shake it off without [15:12] looking, it would fall to the ground, [15:13] wouldn't that be embarrassing? [15:16] >> Then, he started talking to me and gave [15:18] a little wave with his hand. [15:22] That guy immediately shoved a lit [15:23] cigarette into his hand. [15:26] >> He took a puff and talked to me, but [15:28] what was he saying? It was like a scene [15:30] straight out of a TV show. [15:32] >> It must have been rehearsed. [15:34] He said, "Chinese people just exercise [15:36] blindly; I hire American trainers." [15:40] He took a puff, and the person behind [15:42] him snatched the cigarette away. [15:45] Just as his hand hung there, another [15:47] person tapped it, and a fresh one was [15:49] stuck back in. [15:51] I was so amused that day. [15:53] I was about to burst out laughing. [15:55] He didn't know what I was laughing at. [15:58] All their movements were perfectly [16:00] rehearsed; that person was completely [16:02] focused on sucking up to him. [16:04] Otherwise, if he gestured like that, you [16:06] have to know if he wants another puff. [16:08] If you took it away prematurely, he'd [16:10] know; they knew everything. [16:11] >> Yeah. [16:13] Then there was a dedicated elevator. [16:15] The elevator in the lobby was kept empty [16:17] , with someone standing there waiting. [16:20] Once he went up, there was tea and [16:22] everything else. [16:24] Every single movement was perfectly [16:25] timed and rhythmic in its sycophancy. [16:27] The whole process—I was genuinely [16:29] impressed. I went back and tried it with [16:32] my own coat, but it's not that easy. You [16:34] see, you have to use your shoulders to [16:35] shake it off. If you don't do it right, [16:38] it won't come off. You can flail around [16:40] for ages and the coat is still on you, [16:41] you know? He just enjoys this; he enjoys [16:44] it. Do you think he even cares if it's [16:46] real or fake? [16:47] He probably just likes the style. [16:49] >> Right. [16:50] >> But even if you wanted to defend against [16:52] it, you might not be able to. [16:54] The story Teacher Ma just told, actually [16:56] , the biggest figure in the foodie world [16:58] like that was Yuan Mei. [17:00] >> In*Yanshi Dan*, he was going to the [17:01] south to take up an official post and [17:03] went to bid his teacher farewell. The [17:05] teacher asked, "What have you prepared? [17:07] " He replied, "I've prepared 100 tall [17:09] hats (flattery)." The teacher said, " [17:11] That's not good, is it?" He said, " [17:13] These days, who doesn't like wearing a [17:15] tall hat? Everyone likes to hear a few [17:18] nice words." Then they say, how many can [17:20] be like you, teacher? [17:23] Oh, haha, when I went out, I told my [17:25] attendant, "Hm, why are there only 99 [17:27] left?" [17:29] You see, this is why I think flattery is [17:31] a high-IQ job. [17:34] Because, you know, leaders aren't stupid [17:36] ; they know you're sucking up to them, [17:38] but actually, I think to a large extent [17:40] . [17:42] They are amazed by your talent. For [17:43] example, they tell this story about Ji [17:45] Xiaolan and Emperor Qianlong's 50th [17:47] birthday. "I'm also 50, 50," the Emperor [17:50] said, "Ji Lan, write a couplet." He [17:53] blurted out, "The Imperial domain spans [17:55] forty thousand miles." [17:59] That is to say, the territory of the [18:01] Qing Dynasty spans forty thousand miles [18:03] , "Since ancient times, no dynasty has [18:05] ever unified forty thousand miles, and [18:08] for your 50th birthday, may you have [18:10] another 9950." [18:15] Years. [18:17] >> Ten thousand years. [18:18] >> Forty thousand miles. I mean, you know [18:20] he's flattering. Hmm. [18:22] >> But the level is just too high. [18:26] >> These stories, after being embellished [18:28] by later scholars, have multiplied. [18:30] >> Each one is more impressive, flattery at [18:32] its finest. Sir, what you just said is [18:35] also a question; why do I feel like, uh [18:37] , it's not me? I, I might be bragging, [18:39] but I always feel that if someone [18:41] praises me, I feel uneasy; that's not it [18:43] . Is it because of our inherent sense of [18:45] inferiority? [18:47] Like, for instance, if we're eating [18:48] together and someone says, "Hey, I watch [18:51] your show often." I seem to [18:52] instinctively want to change the subject [18:54] . [18:55] But some people really enjoy it; why do [18:57] I feel so embarrassed? [18:59] It feels like I can't handle it. No, [19:00] it's the same for me. I don't really [19:02] like talking about my own show either. [19:05] Since we're finally together, talking [19:06] about that—because we know the show has [19:08] various issues, and you know clearly. [19:10] Which conversation was good, which was [19:13] bad. [19:13] When people talk to you about it, it's [19:15] actually a professional matter, not [19:17] flattery; it's just a...Otherwise, when [19:19] I'm sitting with someone, how should I [19:21] respond? I usually only see them through [19:24] a screen, like, wait for some topic or [19:26] another, right? It's awkward. Why do you [19:28] say it's not bad? Your show is unique, [19:30] and you are also unique, so it's not bad [19:32] to talk about it. Some people get it [19:34] wrong; they talk for a long time and end [19:36] up talking about a different actor, you [19:38] know? That's it. [19:40] So now, when I run into actresses, [19:42] sometimes they say, "Master Ma, do you [19:44] still remember me?" I said I remember, [19:46] you really remember, but I actually [19:48] don't remember at all, because actresses [19:50] are especially hard to tell apart. Right [19:51] , if you just blurt it out, you're bound [19:53] to be wrong, and then you can't be a [19:55] nice guy anymore. [19:55] >> Fumbling to correct yourself is [19:57] definitely a form of flattering the [19:58] wrong person. [20:00] >> One time during a livestream, I was [20:02] presenting an award with that actor, and [20:04] while I was on air, I said, "I really [20:05] loved your performance as Yongzheng," [20:07] but he didn't play that role. [20:10] >> What did he play? [20:11] Was it Kangxi? [20:12] >> Oh right, he said, "I played Kangxi." It [20:15] was so awkward. I also often run into [20:17] people who say, "Oh, Mr. Fang Zhou, you [20:19] can both expose frauds and write, that's [20:21] great." You’re both a fighter and a... [20:22] >> Let me tell you, what you said reminds [20:24] me of something. Did you see that Jacky [20:26] Cheung concert clip going around on [20:27] social media lately? [20:28] >> Jacky Cheung was performing somewhere, [20:30] twisting and turning, and you could hear [20:32] the audience next to him shouting, " [20:33] Andy Lau!" Exactly. That’s one. [20:36] Another one I heard in Shanghai was [20:38] about David Wu. [20:41] He opened a bar there, and a little girl [20:43] walked in, saw him, and went right up to [20:45] him saying, "Ng Man-tat!" [20:48] >> Right, right, that happens all the time [20:50] . So for actors, when you aren't really [20:51] close, it's best to just say, "You're [20:53] great," and don't use their names or [20:55] talk about their work; it's very easy to [20:56] mess up and end up flattering the wrong [20:58] person. [20:58] >> Doesn't Huang Bo tell a story like that [21:00] himself? People talk to him for a long [21:02] time, and in the end, they ask for an [21:04] autograph, perhaps confusing him with [21:05] Wang Baoqiang in the middle of the [21:07] conversation, and he’s forced to sign as [21:09] Wang Baoqiang. [21:10] >> That’s very common. [21:12] >> It actually happened at the airport; [21:14] someone stopped him and said... [21:16] " [21:17] >> Mr. Lu Yu, I love you so much." And so [21:19] Mr. Chen just signed "Yu" for them. [21:24] I once, I once happened to be sitting [21:25] right next to Mr. Jiang Kun on a flight [21:28] . [21:29] We were quite fated to be together; we [21:31] sat and chatted the whole way. In the [21:33] end, someone came up to greet me first, [21:35] and at least they didn't get it wrong. " [21:38] Hey!""Teacher Dao, I watch your show. [21:40] Teacher Ma, you're here too!" Jiang is [21:43] very humorous, isn't he? Teacher Ma, you [21:46] fly often. [21:47] So, this art of flattery really is a [21:49] necessity, isn't it? [21:51] No, it isn't. It's about sincere [21:54] flattery. [21:54] >> Hmm. [21:55] >> Hey, Ma Ye, let me ask you a question. [21:58] >> I think all four of us should answer [22:00] this. [22:01] >> At your current age—40, 60, or 80— [22:07] Hey, at your age, have you ever [22:09] reflected on whether many of your [22:10] strengths and perceived shortcomings [22:12] today are related to your family [22:14] background? [22:17] Have you pondered that? [22:19] >> I'm certain the sense of inferiority [22:21] from being a "phoenix girl" drove my [22:23] growth. Yes, definitely. [22:25] >> The flower of Hubei. [22:27] It’s this constant atmosphere of wanting [22:29] to break free from one's current [22:31] environment. I’m actually from a railway [22:33] family. My dad was an engineer and my [22:35] mom was a teacher at a railway school, [22:37] so effectively, I’m a railway kid too. [22:39] Yes, basically, definitely so. But there [22:42] was this atmosphere of "losers" in the [22:44] railway community—I don't mean that in a [22:46] derogatory way, just that everyone felt [22:48] their destiny was already fixed. [22:51] So, I was someone who wanted to escape [22:52] that environment. [22:54] So you often say you have a [22:56] people-pleasing personality, where you [22:57] involuntarily want to make others happy [22:59] when you meet them. [23:00] >> Right, that includes when you were young [23:02] — [23:02] >> You feel it’s related to that sense of [23:04] inferiority from a small town. Actually [23:06] , when you just mentioned seeing those [23:07] fancy clothes, it reminded me of when I [23:09] was about 11 or 12, going to a wealthy [23:11] relative's home in Guangzhou to pick [23:13] through the clothes the older sister [23:15] didn't want. And my great-aunt was the [23:16] one who arranged for me to pick the [23:18] clothes. Because she was hard of hearing [23:19] , her voice was very loud, saying, "Go [23:21] ahead! Dig through them! Dig through [23:23] them to your heart's content!" At that [23:25] moment, I felt so miserable. [23:27] That was probably the moment I clearly [23:29] realized I was from a small city, and [23:31] seeing those fancy clothes—That sense of [23:33] inferiority, I think that was perhaps [23:35] one of the most profound memories. [23:37] >> Look, Ma Ye, if you look at the four of [23:40] us, I always feel we two belong to the [23:42] commoner class, while you two come from [23:44] the new China nobility. No, I don't, I’m [23:47] not. [23:48] >> How are you not? You’re from an Air [23:49] Force compound. The compound was an Air [23:51] Force compound. [23:52] Yes, back then, the atmosphere of his [23:54] upbringing was unique to that place [23:56] because the nation had just been founded [23:58] . In our childhood, every dynasty—...is [24:01] the same. It's the same in any country, [24:02] because political power is seized [24:04] through battle. Power cannot be [24:05] negotiated or bought; it is fought for. [24:07] The power that is seized is held by the [24:09] first generation: the military. Every [24:11] dynasty is the same; they always hold a [24:13] ......higher status. Take Zhao Kuangyin [24:15] for example. After Zhao Kuangyin [24:16] conquered the world, he used the "cup of [24:18] wine to release military power" strategy [24:20] , and everyone lived well, as long as [24:22] that power of mine disappeared. So, in [24:24] the 50s and 60s of the last century, [24:26] when we were growing up, the military [24:28] received much better treatment than the [24:30] local areas; at the very least, we never [24:32] went hungry and there was always enough [24:34] to eat. [24:36] That's why I get the feeling that you [24:38] all grew up in Beijing. Take me, for [24:40] instance; I’m from Shijiazhuang, what [24:42] they call the "Number One Zhuang under [24:44] Heaven." [24:45] I sometimes feel that, of course, using [24:47] any region to define a person is [24:48] something you could refute, and it’s not [24:50] exactly scientific. [24:52] But why do people love to chat so much [24:54] about "Where are you from?""Where are [24:56] you from, and where am I from?" [24:59] For example, when I chat with them, I [25:01] feel that people from Hebei, or us folks [25:03] from Shijiazhuang, have a certain humble [25:05] outlook on life deep down in our bones. [25:09] >> Yeah. [25:10] >> Humility, really. [25:14] Why is it that, when you see a group of [25:15] people, I feel like us Hebei people [25:17] don't really like to show off our [25:19] personalities; we prefer to keep a check [25:21] on ourselves. [25:25] On the contrary, take that recent [25:27] incident with Aunt Qiong Yang; because [25:28] of that business with her husband, she [25:30] made sure the whole society knew about [25:32] it. [25:35] I realized back then that there’s a [25:36] certain type of person who, if you ask [25:38] me, has this sense of being a " [25:40] character," or a sense of being the [25:41] center of attention. [25:45] People like me, with my background, if I [25:47] ever lose my temper, I think, "Oh, [25:49] goodness," because everyone in society [25:51] has their ups and downs, so what right [25:53] do I have to take up others 'time or [25:55] force my personal affairs onto the whole [25:58] of society? [26:02] I sometimes notice that some celebrities [26:04] have this tendency to act like they’re [26:06] throwing a tantrum in front of the [26:08] public—for instance, if they’re unhappy [26:10] , they’ll just start cursing everyone [26:12] out, acting as if... [26:14] >> They need people to coddle them. So, you [26:16] mean to say you can’t name names of [26:18] these celebrities? [26:19] >> No, I can't name names, but I can... [26:21] >> I still can't quite figure out what kind [26:22] of situation that is. I can't name names [26:24] , but I can point to their backgrounds. [26:26] I later discovered, based on incomplete [26:28] statistics, that those who have this " [26:30] character" or "center of attention" [26:31] complex, or who aren't refined or [26:33] disciplined at all, will just go out and [26:35] shout and scream, right? They’ll go [26:37] around cursing everyone out, and think [26:39] the whole of society has to cater to [26:40] them, right? [26:41] Hey, I’ve noticed that people like this [26:44] usually grew up in Beijing, maybe even [26:45] having a family background like Kelan's [26:47] . [26:49] Really? [26:50] >> Don't say you have it too. [26:51] >> When did I ever have it? [26:53] >> Let’s not beat around the bush, let’s [26:55] speak directly. [26:56] >> Good question, well asked. No, you’re [26:59] actually more open-minded. [27:00] >> What I want to say is, people keep [27:02] bringing up background; background [27:04] shouldn't be an excuse for a person, an [27:06] excuse on the path of growth. If you [27:08] want to talk about backgrounds from that [27:10] era, it was all collective ownership, [27:11] and Ma should be very clear about this. [27:13] >> No, I've never claimed that. [27:15] Back in those days, what was considered [27:17] corruption or bribery? Every tea table, [27:20] stool, and bed in the house, [27:22] >> was all public property; you had no [27:24] private assets. At the same time, your [27:26] salary was indeed high, grandparents had [27:29] high salaries, but they had many people [27:31] to support. [27:31] >> So, do you... [27:33] >> Supporting several big families? [27:34] >> It was all public, so do you think this [27:36] society now also belongs to your family [27:38] ? [27:38] >> It's also public. [27:41] Uh, I’d love that, but the Chinese [27:43] feudal system has ended, so this is [27:45] simply impossible. [27:48] Let me analyze you; you’re not the type [27:50] who wants to let the whole world know [27:52] about your business, but I can still see [27:54] some personality traits from your family [27:55] background. [27:58] Kelan, this personality can sometimes [28:00] easily offend people, you know? [28:02] Especially Chinese people, who might [28:04] wonder why this woman acts like a hero, [28:06] or is so well-liked, [28:08] >> it’s just very rigid, like that. [28:11] >> I think people just feel that this [28:13] background becomes an excuse during the [28:15] growth process. [28:17] But in reality, background only reflects [28:19] a family's upbringing. [28:21] Not everyone's background dictates the [28:23] shape of their personality; it’s not [28:25] like that, everyone’s personality is [28:27] different. [28:29] For example, looking at my grandfather [28:31] enduring so many blows, it taught me [28:33] that nothing really counts. [28:37] Regardless of what you did before, if [28:38] they say you’re good today, you’re good [28:40] ; if they say you’re bad tomorrow, [28:42] you’re bad. [28:45] If the sky falls, you have to rely on [28:46] your own backbone to hold it up; that’s [28:48] what it means to be an upright person. [28:52] This has nothing to do with whether your [28:53] background was impoverished or not. [28:56] Instead, you keep your desires low. [28:59] >> Right, those are two separate issues. [29:02] The first issue is the influence of [29:04] environment; your background, good or [29:06] bad, plays a role. [29:09] Another issue we are particularly [29:11] cautious about is innate factors—what we [29:13] call personality. [29:15] Personality is innate and hereditary. [29:17] Many people don't believe it when we say [29:19] personality is hereditary. I’ll give you [29:22] a benchmark, and you'll believe it. It’s [29:23] hard to discuss when it comes to humans [29:25] , because people think human factors are [29:27] mostly acquired, but that’s not [29:29] necessarily the case. [29:30] International kennel clubs have a [29:32] definition for purebred dogs. [29:36] Aside from physical height and weight [29:38] for males and females, the most [29:40] important indicator is temperament. [29:44] A dog cannot mutate for three [29:45] generations. For instance, take a [29:48] bulldog; the more you provoke it, the [29:50] more aggressive it becomes. That’s its [29:52] personality; you can't change it. A good [29:54] environment won't make it any less [29:55] aggressive. [29:57] >> Then there are dogs that bark, but if [29:59] you poke them, they retreat. [30:01] That’s also their personality, and it [30:03] determines if they can be listed by the [30:05] World Kennel Club. [30:06] And both dogs and humans are living [30:08] beings. [30:09] >> You’re looking at humans through the [30:11] lens of a dog. [30:12] When we talk about this personality, [30:14] people often say someone is very similar [30:16] to their grandmother. [30:17] This is personality; there must be [30:19] something internal being passed down. [30:21] >> However, this transmission is modified [30:23] because humans can change a lot [30:24] throughout their lives and are [30:25] restrained by culture. For example, if [30:27] you keep hitting walls, your personality [30:29] will become more reserved, right? If you [30:30] never have the opportunity to hit a wall [30:32] in your environment, your personality [30:34] remains your own. Our personalities have [30:35] all been modified. Does the "Lao Pao" [30:37] archetype belong to that mindset? " [30:39] >> Lao Pao" is "Lao Pao"; that movie really [30:41] took things in a different direction. Is [30:43] that right? [30:45] "Lao Pao" is like this: historically, [30:47] the term didn't just refer to people [30:49] born and raised in Beijing. [30:52] It often referred to those with a [30:54] military compound background or those [30:56] with a very strong sense of cultural [30:57] self. [30:58] The strongest concept behind these "Lao [31:00] Pao" types is doing things without [31:02] calculating the cost; that is the [31:04] essence of a "Lao Pao." Hmm. [31:06] >> The reason the "Lao Pao" spirit and the [31:08] film became so popular later is that it [31:10] highlighted this essence of doing things [31:12] without counting the cost. Today, the [31:14] first thing we do is calculate costs: " [31:16] Is this worth my time?"" [31:17] >> Is it worth risking everything for my [31:19] brother?" [31:19] >> Hmm. [31:20] >> Whenever we do something, they have to [31:21] calculate the cost. If it takes me half [31:23] a day to do some crappy task, I just [31:24] won't do it. [31:25] >> After all the calculating, it still ends [31:27] up betraying one's brothers. [31:28] >> So if we really must talk about one's [31:30] background today, let's think about " [31:31] old-timers"—it actually has nothing to [31:32] do with birth, but rather your [31:34] perspective. It has to do with your life [31:35] experiences. [31:36] >> So, does one's background influence [31:38] perspective and experience? I think [31:39] family upbringing has a huge impact. [31:42] For example, my grandmother told me from [31:44] a young age that this is a [31:45] male-dominated society. [31:48] As a woman, as a girl, I was the first [31:50] child in our extended family, but I was [31:52] unlucky enough to be a girl. [31:54] My grandma said I had to study. [31:57] Since I wasn't pretty, studying was the [31:59] only way—I worked very hard later on, [32:01] extremely hard. [32:03] >> Compared to my beautiful mother, I was [32:05] under a lot of pressure, and my grandma [32:06] would say that only reading could keep [32:08] me from being lonely. You realize that [32:10] what happens when you’re little—think [32:12] about it, the first time I ever wanted [32:13] to die was when I couldn't finish my [32:15] winter or summer homework in elementary [32:17] school, maybe first grade; I just wanted [32:18] to die then. [32:19] >> Oh, that was really my grandma's wisdom [32:21] . Looking back now, how ridiculous it [32:23] all was! But every time I felt like [32:25] dying, moved to tears by my own drama, [32:27] someone would throw a book at me. [32:29] You’d read it and realize that all those [32:31] historical figures didn't die, so why [32:33] should I? I’m still young and beautiful [32:35] ! [32:35] >> Mm. [32:36] >> I think this is very important—family [32:38] upbringing. [32:40] You’ll come to realize that, in fact, [32:42] every Chinese family is essentially a [32:44] history of blood and tears. [32:47] If you really understand what your [32:49] family has gone through during its [32:51] development, when you look back and [32:52] constantly verify your life experiences [32:54] , you realize none of this is a big deal [32:56] ; no matter how many hardships come, [32:58] they’re just nothing. [33:02] You know, there was a while where a [33:04] popular article written by someone [33:05] working in human resources at a company [33:07] went viral online. Was it "Is it hard [33:09] for kids from poor families to succeed? [33:11] " They said a group of interns came to [33:13] their bank, but in the end, only two [33:15] could be kept. [33:16] Then their colleague said, "Watch this, [33:18] I'll tell you who's from a rural [33:19] background, who's from a cadre family, [33:21] and who's from an intellectual family." [33:23] They said they were almost always right [33:25] . [33:26] Take a simple example: the second day of [33:28] work, the kid from the countryside [33:30] arrived the earliest. [33:31] Even though he was the first to arrive, [33:33] he didn't know how to socialize and [33:35] wouldn't even greet people. [33:36] >> But children from official families [33:38] often arrive and say, "Oh, you must be [33:40] tired, let me pour you some water." [33:43] They know how to handle things, whereas [33:44] the ones who are a bit annoying are [33:46] actually children from intellectual [33:48] families, who seem a bit haughty and [33:49] don't really cooperate with others. [33:52] You see, doesn't this show that these [33:54] things are related to them and their [33:55] upbringing? [33:57] >> So why isn't the focus on the family [33:59] background instead of social origin? [34:01] I feel that the reason someone like Qi [34:03] Tongwei can get so much sympathy is [34:04] because of their family upbringing. He [34:06] has absolutely no sense of awe, no sense [34:08] of shame. Even if the background is the [34:10] same, why would you be so hypocritical, [34:12] pretending to be from a humble [34:14] background? Where is there such a " [34:16] humble" background like yours? And Fang [34:18] Zhou... [34:18] >> It's not about the relationship between [34:20] Fang Zhou and his mother. I read an [34:21] article by Fang Zhou; this is not [34:23] ordinary. What do you call this "humble [34:25] " background? It's intellectuals. [34:27] Only the daughter of a woman with great [34:29] insight and an independent personality [34:31] could have such a personal development. [34:33] Then that just means your father married [34:35] above his station, and your mother [34:37] married below hers, right? No. [34:38] >> Yes, I really think it's a matter of [34:40] family upbringing. It's that from a [34:42] young age, he knew he and his mother [34:44] were best friends; he could discuss [34:46] anything with her, so if his mom checked [34:48] his phone, he felt it was normal and [34:49] fine. I should let my mother know what a [34:51] wonderful family this is. [34:52] >> It's that he has fewer secrets; if he [34:54] had many secrets, he wouldn't let her [34:55] see it either. [34:56] >> He has secrets, he definitely has [34:57] secrets, but the question is, what is [34:58] this called? [34:59] >> My father is no longer with us, but my [35:01] mother still is. Since she's still [35:03] around and doesn't watch the show, I can [35:05] say whatever I want; I can say anything [35:06] . [35:07] >> I'll just send bags over to her. [35:10] >> My father was the person who took care [35:12] of me my whole life. Down to every [35:14] single detail. Since I was little, my [35:16] mother wouldn't wear shoes made in [35:18] Beijing, even though she was from [35:19] Beijing. [35:20] She wouldn't wear them; she would only [35:22] wear shoes from Shanghai or Guangzhou. [35:24] That was extremely picky for that era. [35:27] Since she was a child, she liked eating [35:29] chocolate and things we all considered [35:31] luxury foods, because she was a spoiled [35:33] young lady. [35:35] >> And then, looking into my mother's [35:37] family history—My mother's family goes [35:39] back five generations as major merchants [35:41] in Lijin, Shandong. [35:44] They were the wealthiest in the county [35:46] for five consecutive generations [35:48] starting from the Daoguang period, so [35:50] later I could understand why my mother [35:52] had so many habits...you know, where [35:54] those quirks came from. [35:56] They were all bourgeois habits. [35:58] >> I, on the other hand, am not picky about [36:00] anything. I wouldn't eat anything with a [36:02] strong flavor. By the time I left home [36:04] for the countryside, I had to learn to [36:06] eat scallions, ginger, garlic, beef, and [36:08] mutton—I had to eat everything, because [36:09] my family had nothing. He didn't know; [36:11] he wouldn't touch anything with any kind [36:13] of strong flavor. Is the heat at your [36:15] place not great? Not great, how is the [36:17] heat? [36:17] >> It's no good, there's no wine or [36:19] anything prepared here. [36:20] >> But things were different on my father's [36:22] side. [36:24] My great-grandfather lost both his [36:26] parents by age six, becoming an orphan [36:28] by twelve. [36:30] Going to sea meant death; it was the [36:32] most dangerous job, with a mortality [36:34] rate for fishermen second only to miners [36:36] . [36:38] >> At that time, the southeast coast had [36:40] this...one benefit, because you were [36:42] literally betting your life. When [36:44] everyone went out to sea, there were no [36:46] companies, only shares; if you went, you [36:48] had a share, because you were [36:49] contributing your life as capital. As a [36:51] result, they slowly started to prosper. [36:54] After my great-grandfather made his [36:56] fortune, he had my father educated; my [36:58] father was his eldest grandson. [37:00] The eldest son of the eldest son, my [37:02] father was the first in our family to [37:04] study. That’s how I eventually came to [37:06] be, but what was the benefit of his [37:08] education? Thirty-nine of them went out [37:09] together to join the army, through the [37:11] War of Resistance and the War of [37:12] Liberation. He was in famous battles, [37:14] wasn't he? Everyone knows the [37:15] Menglianggu Campaign, then the Jinan [37:17] Campaign, the Huai-Hai Campaign, the [37:18] Crossing the Yangtze, and the Shanghai [37:20] Campaign—he fought all the way through [37:21] and survived. Why did he survive? [37:23] Because he had an education. Educated [37:25] people are more likely to survive until [37:27] the end; aren't wise soldiers brave? [37:29] Just charging blindly—your life is left [37:31] to chance. [37:32] >> They kept charging, they kept charging, [37:34] there had to be a reason for that. Sorry [37:36] , my... [37:36] >> Getting off track, getting off track. [37:38] >> It’s not just off track; at the very [37:39] least, you have to look before you leap [37:41] , right? [37:41] >> You need time to judge the situation. [37:43] >> Yes, exactly. We won because of the [37:45] whole picture; without these wise [37:46] soldiers, we couldn't have won. [37:47] >> It all comes down to foresight. [37:48] >> Yes, exactly. So look at these two [37:51] families: one was an orphan. Later, I [37:53] made a film; why was it placed at the [37:55] end when it was broadcast? [37:57] Because I talked about someone who was a [37:59] third-generation pauper and eventually [38:01] an orphan, and then this other family— [38:03] my father's family—versus my mother's, [38:05] which had been the wealthiest for years [38:07] . [38:09] How could those two ever meet? If they [38:11] hadn't collided, I wouldn't exist, right [38:13] ? What looks like the coincidence of a [38:14] single family is the inevitability of a [38:16] century of Chinese history. It’s like [38:18] what you just said, every household goes [38:20] through this, and [38:21] >> Every household. And what you’re saying [38:23] about this, this century-long [38:25] inevitability, what is it? You really [38:27] have seen it, speaking of the last [38:28] hundred years in China, your parents' [38:30] generation, your ancestors [38:31] >> The process of reshuffling, turning [38:33] everything upside down, look at your [38:35] grandfather, [38:36] >> Actually, it’s not just everyone, all of [38:38] us, every one of us is like this. [38:40] Your grandfather was a revolutionary, [38:42] your grandmother was from a wealthy, [38:44] well-to-do family. [38:46] You see, in the old days, this would [38:48] never have happened. [38:49] >> You wouldn't even have met each other. [38:51] Right, it used to be about matching [38:52] social status, but this reshuffling—but [38:54] let me tell you, Master Ma, even when [38:56] you say this, I feel your background is [38:58] better than mine, really, it isn't. [39:00] >> I tell you, Dong, you’re sounding more [39:03] and more reactionary. [39:05] You keep going back to Hebei; that’s the [39:08] problem with Hebei—it exists just to set [39:10] off Beijing. [39:12] That’s right, and that determines our [39:14] sense of inferiority, you know? [39:16] It’s always been under Beijing’s shadow [39:18] , hasn't it? [39:20] I think Ke is right too; it's mostly [39:22] that, for instance, kids growing up in [39:24] Beijing might genuinely have a broader [39:26] perspective, right? [39:29] And for example, with the friends I hang [39:31] out with now, I’ve noticed they have [39:33] this subtle, imperceptible sense of [39:34] superiority. [39:36] Where does this superiority show? It [39:38] shows in their uninhibited nature. Just [39:40] look, when we people from Hebei chat, [39:42] including me and Fang Zhou, when we talk [39:44] , there’s always a [39:46] >> Why do you think I’m the host? [39:47] >> Can you stop dragging Fang Zhou into [39:49] this? Fang Zhou is like a little bird [39:51] ... [39:51] >> This is where you can tell—he needs to [39:53] pull in an ally to have any confidence. [39:55] That’s why, look, I’m the host, and a [39:57] host is supposed to be accompanying [39:59] others in conversation. [40:00] >> I don't feel like you’re accompanying us [40:02] ; I feel like we’re all accompanying you [40:04] . Why, I later realized that my friends [40:06] here in Beijing, when you really think [40:08] about it, are like Master Ma. [40:10] They feel that even if they were [40:12] miserable back then—listen, this is also [40:14] a story— [40:15] >> Whether they were in the Propaganda [40:17] Department, or, oh, you were in the [40:19] Fourth Field Army, or this or that. You [40:21] have to realize, back in our hometown, I [40:23] think, Master Ma, you can trace back [40:25] your ancestors and your grandfather, but [40:27] our family’s ancestral graves are all [40:29] gone. I asked my dad the other day, " [40:31] It's Qingming Festival, no wonder we [40:33] never get rich, where are our ancestral [40:35] graves?" My dad said, "As for the land, [40:37] who knows when the village fields might [40:39] be leveled, and they wouldn't even tell [40:41] us." [40:42] It really is a silent catastrophe; we [40:44] simply had no idea. [40:48] And you see, my parents were both [40:49] farmers, both from the countryside, and [40:51] I discovered that deep down, they have [40:53] this stoicism, or perhaps a way of [40:55] making heavy burdens seem light. [41:00] I even have a very interesting memory of [41:02] this. [41:04] Back then, I just felt that Beijing kids [41:06] lived with such self-respect. [41:10] When I was young, breakdancing was [41:12] incredibly popular. [41:14] There was a national breakdancing [41:15] competition. I had never been to Beijing [41:18] , and that was my first impression of [41:20] Beijing kids. [41:21] Do you know what that impression was? It [41:23] was a national breakdancing competition [41:25] , a breakdancing contest. [41:27] The whole arena knew there was something [41:29] crooked going on; the judges clearly had [41:31] a dark agenda. [41:33] Everyone could see it. [41:37] But I noticed that our Hebei team, along [41:39] with the others, knew it was unfair, yet [41:40] they just took it. [41:44] >> They swallowed their anger, finished [41:46] performing, and left. I remember four or [41:48] five guys from Beijing came up last; [41:50] they had probably planned it. They [41:52] danced incredibly well, and as the last [41:54] one finished with a dramatic flair, one [41:56] guy just shrugged his shoulder and said [41:58] , "Screw this, let's go." They walked [42:00] off right then and there. [42:02] For a kid from Shijiazhuang, I thought, [42:05] "Wow, Beijingers really are fearless, [42:07] they just refuse to play along," you [42:09] know? [42:12] I felt like they could just live that [42:14] way, following their impulses, [42:15] free-spirited, while we seemed bound to [42:17] follow all the rules. [42:21] I think there's another reason for what [42:22] you're describing. [42:25] This so-called indulgence is really just [42:27] a lack of shame in occupying public [42:29] resources. [42:30] They’ve been doing it since they were [42:32] kids. [42:33] >> No, what I mean is, actually... [42:35] >> Let him finish. Actually, what I'm [42:36] saying is, including the HR you [42:38] mentioned, who serves tea and water so [42:40] sweetly, they are also utilizing public [42:42] resources in the same way. [42:44] It’s because when they are serving tea [42:46] and water, all the focus is on them. [42:49] They have no shame in being exposed to [42:51] everyone, making everyone revolve around [42:53] them, including talking about their own [42:55] affairs in public discourse, but I think [42:57] that’s just you people from small places [42:59] . [43:00] >> We were also the first to sign a deal. [43:03] Right, it's actually about feeling [43:04] embarrassed to occupy public resources, [43:06] so I pull back, thinking that my own [43:08] matters and emotions shouldn't burden [43:10] too many people. [43:12] I don't quite understand it, but in [43:14] today's society, everyone seems quite [43:16] relaxed about it. [43:18] But for example, why do I always feel [43:20] that, say, if you want to tell the [43:22] public about your own business, it's [43:23] something I’ve felt since I was little— [43:25] like, "Oh, what right do I have to make [43:27] people listen to my business?" [43:30] But compared to that, you see some [43:31] people who are so expressive, and you [43:33] actually admire them; they feel their [43:35] personal matters are of the utmost [43:36] importance, right? [43:39] Hey, they complain about me, or talk [43:41] about how their wife this or their [43:42] husband that; why do they have this [43:44] feeling that the whole society is...let [43:46] me put it more practically. [43:50] >> Among the four of us sitting here, who [43:52] has the most assets? It must be you. [43:54] >> My assets are you guys; I only have the [43:56] assets of the show. [43:59] >> I remember very clearly, when I was 20, [44:01] I joined Channel V. My mom watched us [44:03] kids scrambling around, and she said [44:05] very calmly, "None of you kids will ever [44:07] become big stars, why?" [44:12] "Because you all just seek pleasure, and [44:13] you have no grand ambitions because [44:15] you're all lost souls." [44:19] Each and every one of us grew up in our [44:20] own families, or like us, it might sound [44:22] like we belong to a privileged class, [44:24] but where is that really? [44:27] Okay, we don't have grand ambitions; why [44:30] are we lost souls? Because I don't want [44:32] them, I don't have the competitive [44:34] ability, so you see the ones doing best [44:35] now are the old-school bunch from*Qiang [44:37] Qiang San Ren Xing*. [44:38] >> Because what was our family background [44:40] classified as back then? [44:43] >> Regardless of background, you can't deny [44:45] that you have a vanity driven by the [44:47] need to promote economic prosperity and [44:49] cultural progress, which pushes you step [44:51] by step, and I'm just here scolding you [44:53] . [44:58] >> I'm not scolding anyone; if you insist [45:00] on dividing it that way, that is exactly [45:02] what I wanted to say. [45:05] >> He's still very sensitive; actually, [45:06] before he even said that, that was [45:08] exactly what I wanted to talk about. [45:10] You're only talking about phenomena; [45:11] what about our results? [45:12] >> Results, yes, look at the results. [45:14] >> See, the results have emerged, you see? [45:17] You do have competitive ability, [45:19] competitive ability. Let me tell you, I [45:21] participated... [45:21] >> It's emerged, too, a famous female [45:24] writer. [45:24] >> Don't always dwell on that; actually, [45:26] you two, I once participated in an event [45:28] . That event was a huge eye-opener for [45:31] me. People dragged me along; I didn’t [45:33] know what for. [45:34] Later I said I wouldn't go, but they [45:36] said, "Come on, they’re all descendants [45:38] of the founding fathers." [45:40] >> Uh-huh. So, I went that day—let’s not [45:42] name names, it’s not nice—everyone was a [45:44] descendant of a founding father. Whose [45:46] son, whose daughter...some really looked [45:49] the part. They said a boss from Hebei’s [45:51] coal mines was hosting. [45:52] I thought it was actually the founding [45:54] fathers or people like that. [45:56] I got there, and this guy was just [45:58] sitting there. [45:59] I thought he was someone from He Long’s [46:01] family. [46:04] >> Turns out the host was just some coal [46:06] mine boss from Hebei. [46:09] Give me a break. A coal boss, just a [46:11] boss. [46:12] >> A coal boss hosting, putting together a [46:14] table for thirty people. [46:16] And I just felt so pathetic. [46:18] >> Right, in such a large space, of course [46:20] it’s pathetic. It’s nothing, really. I [46:23] looked at it, I thought, why the hell am [46:25] I having a coal boss from Hebei pick up [46:27] the tab just for a meal like this? [46:29] Then, a few people went up and recited [46:31] some poorly written, nonsensical poems, [46:33] which made me feel really down. That day [46:35] I realized—and this is why I’m using [46:37] this example to support your theory— [46:39] these people all have such great [46:41] backgrounds, yet none of them amounted [46:43] to anything. [46:44] >> Uh-huh. [46:45] >> If they had amounted to anything, I [46:47] wouldn't have eaten that meal. [46:49] I wandered into the tiger's den by [46:51] mistake that day. If I had known who was [46:53] who, I never would have gone. [46:55] Think about their advantages. [46:57] To be honest, my father—my father wasn't [47:00] an official; he was just a soldier. [47:03] These people were "officials," all [47:04] founding fathers, the children of the [47:06] top elite, yet they still didn't achieve [47:08] anything. [47:09] Family upbringing is only one part. It [47:12] only limits your manners at a [47:13] superficial level. [47:15] Social education is much more important [47:17] , plus an individual’s self-restraint. I [47:19] think self-restraint is crucial. You [47:22] must have a lot of it. [47:23] >> My self-restraint is huge. You know, the [47:25] reason I didn't... [47:26] >> You know what you can't do. [47:29] The reason I didn't end up in that [47:30] pathetic state is—well, I’m just a [47:32] small-time farmer at heart, so that’s [47:34] that. [47:36] Just tending my own small plot. [47:38] People used to talk about us Hebei [47:40] people—some moved beyond it, but some [47:42] didn’t, and I didn't move beyond it. [47:44] It's said "a small plot of land is [47:46] enough to be content." People like that [47:49] are easily satisfied, and once they are [47:51] , they stop moving forward. [47:53] But someone like Qi Tongwei, coming from [47:55] a rural background—I feel like I've met [47:57] his type. [47:58] That's why he succeeded; let me tell you [48:00] , bad people are the most diligent. I’ve [48:02] noticed that good people, at times, tend [48:04] to work in a divided way. [48:07] >> It’s not just about being diligent, I’m [48:09] just... [48:10] >> Whether it's good or bad, that remains [48:12] to be seen. [48:13] >> It's just that this "diligence" must be [48:15] understood as an obsession; bad people [48:16] are especially crafty and willing to put [48:19] in the effort. In this society in China [48:21] , you really, you... [48:22] >> Actually, I don't think it's about being [48:24] "bad." Lu Xun once wrote an article [48:26] about "fierce people," and I think that [48:28] He Mei from that show, she's exactly [48:30] that kind of fierce person. These fierce [48:32] people need a group of supporters, and [48:34] the ones they pull in might be those [48:35] from privileged backgrounds; it’s [48:37] actually a mutually beneficial [48:39] relationship. So, Fang Zhou, let me ask [48:41] you, do you feel like you ever [48:43] experienced that? [48:45] For instance, when we were in college, [48:47] those who came from small towns [48:48] elsewhere would chat with Beijing [48:50] classmates, and even just hearing a [48:52] Beijing accent would make them feel a [48:54] bit inferior. [48:57] >> Hmm, since we were at Tsinghua, there [48:59] were already very few kids from Beijing [49:01] , so it didn't really matter, and [49:03] besides, I was a celebrity. [49:06] >> It’s different for him; I’m just a bit [49:08] better off in terms of status. [49:09] >> You two, stop putting on an act here. [49:11] This is seriously just—oh, it’s [49:13] unbelievable. [49:14] >> But I did have that feeling when I was [49:16] little. The second essay I ever wrote [49:17] was "I Want to Be Born in Beijing"—I was [49:19] about six and a half, and that was the [49:21] topic. [49:21] >> But if you think about it, if you had [49:23] been born in Beijing and had such an [49:25] amazing mother, you wouldn’t be like you [49:27] are now, surely. [49:27] >> Let’s not dwell on that; let’s move on, [49:29] just keep moving on. Besides, Beijing [49:31] itself isn't a city of "pure" Beijingers [49:33] . Since it was made the capital after [49:34] the founding of the country, everyone [49:36] who came here was from outside. [49:37] >> Right, I’m an outsider. [49:38] >> I remember hearing my uncle say when I [49:40] was a kid that there’s no one here who’s [49:41] a "real" Beijinger. [49:42] >> Exactly. But I’ve always felt that if [49:44] you didn't have elders like that, you [49:46] wouldn't have the personality you have [49:47] today. [49:48] >> But are you saying it's because of his [49:50] grandmother and his mother? [49:51] >> It’s family upbringing. [49:52] >> Look, your expression is clearly off, [49:54] right? Yes, family upbringing is [49:56] certainly very important, but I believe [49:58] in living simply. [50:00] Knowing the background I come from, I’ve [50:02] chosen to live a very simple life. [50:05] When have you ever seen a middle-aged [50:07] woman live so willfully and so simply? [50:09] That would be me! I don’t want it. [50:10] >> It’s fine if I don’t want anything at [50:12] all, right? True, you can manage without [50:14] wanting anything, but for those of us [50:15] with a small business owner background, [50:17] we feel we need a bit of everything— [50:19] it's a bit like being a hoodlum, you [50:21] know? [50:21] >> Right, I’m actually a true "small-time [50:23] comfort seeker"; I’m satisfied as long [50:25] as I have a little bit. [50:27] And I feel that having my pride is more [50:29] important than having that money. [50:31] Between pride and money, I would [50:32] definitely choose pride, but you pretend [50:34] to be a nobody, acting so weary, saying [50:36] "I’ve only got my tiny plot of land," [50:38] when you’ve clearly gone from being a [50:41] nobody to an original brand. [50:42] >> Yes, that’s the rhythm of going from a [50:44] rich peasant to a landlord. [50:45] >> Exactly, and you see, even now, I’m [50:48] still just a rich peasant. No, I don't [50:50] think we should judge based on [50:51] background, right? He’s thinking...look [50:54] , you’re back on the revolutionary path [50:56] again. The right path in the world is [50:58] rugged; I can’t do it. [51:00] >> Why call it revolution? [51:01] Why not call it being an idealist? [51:05] I think early idealists were simple and [51:07] direct—there were early Chinese [51:09] Communists, and the Decembrists; aren’t [51:11] they all idealists? [51:14] >> Is this in your DNA? [51:17] You have this in your bones. [51:19] I think everyone has ideals, but [51:21] everyone's ideals are different. Some [51:23] people's ideal is buying a house or a [51:25] car; perhaps I don't even know what my [51:27] own ideal is. [51:28] >> What is your ideal? [51:29] >> Huh? [51:30] >> This shows your perspective. [51:31] >> I need to think carefully about this. No [51:33] , it’s still about writing something I’m [51:35] satisfied with, so this... [51:36] >> This...this upbringing, this is [51:38] different from background. [51:39] >> Regarding upbringing, his mother was a [51:41] writer, so you see his focus. [51:42] >> His mother was a truly wonderful woman. [51:44] Right, so what is Ma’s ideal? [51:47] >> To be honest, I’m thinking about it [51:49] right now, my brain is spinning rapidly [51:50] , but I just can't come up with my ideal [51:52] . I believe that an ideal is something [51:54] unattainable by nature. Anything that [51:56] can be achieved shouldn't be called an [51:58] ideal; that's called a goal. An ideal is [52:00] something that cannot be realized. It is [52:02] beautiful to have an ideal in life. [52:05] Because there is always something you [52:06] cannot achieve leading or guiding you [52:08] forward. [52:09] Teacher, let me ask you, when do you [52:11] feel a sense of compassion now? [52:13] Especially now that you are over fifty. [52:15] >> He feels a sense of inferiority when he [52:17] looks at you now. [52:18] >> He feels inferior whenever he sees a [52:19] young beauty. [52:20] >> No, not me. I’ve fundamentally turned [52:22] that sense of inferiority into a sense [52:24] of pride. [52:27] I—I even think that, like you said, for [52:29] me, honestly, whenever I have to come [52:31] out and talk about something, I feel [52:33] quite "exposed." [52:36] Actually, for me, it’s about overcoming [52:38] an internal obstacle, because when we [52:40] were young, what was it? [52:43] If you tried to attract attention, I [52:44] would feel it was tacky. [52:46] But look, life is full of contradictions [52:48] . [52:50] You’re in this shameless profession, but [52:52] you have no idea how conflicted I am [52:54] inside—my goal is actually to retire. [52:56] But what is the prerequisite for [52:58] retiring? Making a bit more money, [52:59] having no worries about food and [53:01] clothing. [53:01] >> Right, how much money is enough to be [53:03] worry-free? [53:03] >> It means earning money that you can [53:05] never spend all of. [53:05] >> Money that you will always be spending. [53:07] >> And then you worry about how to spend it [53:09] all. [53:09] >> Right, then find a woman like what Clan [53:11] said, someone who doesn't have much [53:13] material desire, and then we're set. [53:15] You might have to find a young beauty to [53:17] chat with, from every angle. [53:20] If you find a young beauty and she has [53:22] no material needs, your life will be [53:24] incredibly boring, really. [53:26] >> Feeling like the money earned in a [53:28] lifetime can never be spent. [53:29] >> Alright, I wish us all success in [53:31] achieving our goals. Good. [53:34] >> Ideals, when it comes to ideals, I think [53:36] sincerity and integrity are quite [53:38] important.