Foster Calls Western Infrastructure Lag a Threat to Growth

福斯特称西方基建滞后对增长构成威胁 零碎的规划与政治短视阻碍了西方发展，而工程、设计与公共事业的早期整合能够促成大规模基础设施的迅速落地。 建筑师诺曼·福斯特勋爵探讨了来自财务、物理与监管层面的现实限制如何促进而非阻碍建筑创新。他强调，将建筑与工程相结合的多学科一体化方法，能够打造出兼具适应性与高性能的公共和私人建筑，例如彭博伦敦总部以及汇丰香港总行大厦。在对比全球建设环境时，福斯特将中国的快速基建落地与西方的延误进行了对照，并将这一差距归因于政治短视、职业技能工种贬值以及监管碎片化。最后，他主张恢复“造物的崇高感”，并指出即使人工智能在建筑领域的应用不断扩大，人类的设计智慧依然至关重要。 建筑从根本上属于经济问题并受现实条件约束；诺曼·福斯特（Norman Foster）提倡打破传统专业壁垒，在项目第一天就让建筑师、结构工程师与环境工程师跨学科协同工作。 (5:00) 福斯特借鉴1930年代克莱斯勒Airflow单体车身设计，将系统整合理念引入建筑，通过让单一构件承担多重功能来减轻自重并提高结构强度。 (10:00) 彭博伦敦总部通过将古罗马沃特林街延续为公共步行连廊，并以本地石材和青铜取代常规玻璃幕墙，展现了平衡私人利益与公共福祉的设计实践。 (15:00) 长期建筑活力依赖于吸纳未知技术变革的结构灵活性，正如威利斯 Faber & Dumas 总部与汇丰总行大厦的开放式设计所证明的那样。 (20:00) 中国仅用5年建成北京首都国际机场T3航站楼，而伦敦希思罗T5耗时20年；西方陷入政治短期主义与基建延误，而中国庞大的高铁网络展现了极强的基建执行力。 (25:00)

Architect Norman Foster argues that the West's modern struggle to build major infrastructure stems from political short-termism, siloed disciplines, and a cultural devaluation of physical manufacturing compared to countries like China. Systems Integration and Breaking Disciplinary Silos (5:00) Foster argues that conventional professional education severely hampers large-scale construction by isolating architects, engineers, and urban planners into independent tracks. Drawing inspiration from aviation and automotive milestones—such as the 1930s Chrysler Airflow, which integrated the chassis and body into a lighter, stronger unibody—Foster advocates bringing structural engineers, environmental specialists, and builders to the table from a project's inception. When environmental, structural, and spatial elements are integrated early, single architectural components perform multiple functions, lowering overall material counts while improving building performance. Designing with this integrated discipline also allows private developments to serve public needs. For Bloomberg's European headquarters in London, Foster + Partners preserved the ancient Roman alignment of Watling Street as a public pedestrian arcade, incorporated breathing facade panels of local stone and bronze rather than a generic glass curtain wall, and replaced standard security bollards with artistic water benches that double as public seating. Anticipating Disruption Through Spatial Flexibility (20:00) A key design challenge across major projects is anticipating long-term technological and structural shifts. Foster points to the 1975 Willis Faber & Dumas headquarters in Ipswich, which was planned around flexible open floor plates in the typewriter era and subsequently absorbed the digital transition to desktop computers without structural alterations. Similarly, the 1980s HSBC Main Building in Hong Kong fragmented the conventional central core by relocating structural supports, elevators, and mechanical risers to the exterior perimeter. This open floor configuration later enabled the bank to introduce wide-sightline trading floors when financial operations evolved years later. The Western Infrastructure Deficit Versus China's Buildout (25:00) Foster contrasts the West's sluggish delivery of public works with China's rapid modernization over the past three decades. China constructed over 54,000 kilometers of high-speed rail operating at speeds up to 220 mph (350 km/h) in 16 years, connecting 97% of its cities, while Beijing Capital International Airport's Terminal 3 was built in just 5 years. By comparison, London Heathrow's Terminal 5 took 20 years to finish at a fraction of that scale, and the UK curtailed its High Speed 2 (HS2) rail project by scrapping the Manchester link. Western development is heavily hindered by political short-termism and shifting governance priorities, running counter to Britain's historical engineering feats such as the Victorian Thames Embankment or post-war projects like the 1951 Festival of Britain's Dome of Discovery. Foster also notes a cultural disparity: citing Dan Wang's book Breakneck, he points out that China's political and corporate leadership is largely dominated by engineers oriented toward execution, whereas American institutions are predominantly managed by lawyers. The Nobility of Making and AI's Limits Foster contends that Western societies, particularly the UK following Margaret Thatcher's industrial policies, have systematically dismantled their manufacturing bases and degraded the social standing of manual builders and craftspeople. He asserts that physical makers merit the societal prestige typically reserved for medical professionals and first responders, noting that programs like the Yale School of Architecture—which requires first-year students to physically build a family home—help bridge the gap between design theory and hands-on site realities. Despite determining a project's operational lifespan, long-term costs, and energy usage, Foster believes the architectural profession remains historically undervalued and underpaid. When evaluating the impact of artificial intelligence on design, Foster characterizes AI as inherently backward-looking, since its models merely synthesize accumulated historical datasets. Consequently, he argues AI will handle routine data processing but cannot invent structural leaps—such as eliminating a skyscraper's central core—leaving genuine creative ingenuity anchored to human designers. While advanced digital tools and artificial intelligence offer operational efficiencies, Foster maintains that overcoming the West's building paralysis ultimately requires long-term political commitments, multidisciplinary collaboration from project inception, and a renewed cultural respect for physical execution and craft.

建筑师 Norman Foster 认为，当代西方在大型项目建设上的困境根源于专业割裂、对实体制造价值的忽视以及政治短期主义，而通过多学科系统整合与尊重实体工艺，建筑能够兼顾公共效益与长期韧性。 多学科早期整合破除专业壁垒 (5:00) Foster 批评传统建筑与工程教育的条块分割模式。传统教育中，建筑师独立设计后交由工程师解决承重与机电，而规划师则偏向受限于分区法规。Foster 主张在项目首日便将建筑师、结构工程师与环境工程师聚集在一起，将物理、法规和财务限制视为设计的核心推动力。他借鉴 20 世纪 30 年代 Chrysler Airflow 汽车的一体化车身设计，以及将复杂功能高度集成的巨型客机，强调结构要素应承担双重职责，使气候调节、承重结构和公共空间设计深度融合，从而减少冗余构件并提升长期表现。 在私营开发中植入公共属性与适应性 (15:00) 对于商业地标项目，Foster 认为设计必须兼顾内部租户与外部公众。以伦敦 Bloomberg 总部为例，该项目延续了古罗马道路 Watling Street 的走向，在建筑中心开设向公众开放的步行拱廊，并用兼具座椅功能的艺术水景水墩替代生硬的安全隔离柱，同时采用当地石材、青铜及自然通风立面以融入城市肌理。与此同时，抵御未来不确定性需要内在的灵活性。例如 1975 年建成的 Willis Faber & Dumas 总部凭借开放式平面顺利从打字机时代过渡到数字化办公；香港汇丰总行大厦将核心筒与机电移至建筑外侧，使得该行在数十年后能无障碍地改造出视线开阔的现代交易大厅。 基建执行力分化与制造精神的流失 (25:00) 在国家级基础设施建设方面，西方体制的执行力与中国形成了鲜明对照。中国在 16 年间建成了超过 5.4 万公里、时速达 350 公里的高铁网络，覆盖 97% 的城市，北京首都机场 3 号航站楼仅耗时 5 年建成；相比之下，英国的高铁 2 号线（HS2）遭大幅缩减，曼彻斯特段被取消，希思罗机场 5 号航站楼则历时 20 年才告完工。Foster 与主持人都指出，中国治理高管多具工程背景并侧重落地，而英美体制更偏重法律，且自撒切尔时期的政策削减英国工业基础以来，西方社会普遍贬低了技工与实物制造者的社会声望。 建筑价值重估与人工智能局限性 Foster 认为，虽然设计从根本上决定了建筑的总持有成本、功能表现与公共价值，但建筑师群体目前依然处于严重被低估且报酬偏低的境地。针对人工智能对行业的冲击，Foster 认为 AI 属于向后看的累积性工具，完全由历史既有数据构成，无法产生突破性的空间创新，例如在无传统核心筒高层建筑的构想上，完全依赖既往案例的 AI 便无法独立提出该方案。因此，能够利用技术却不盲目依赖工具的人类创造力，在数字化时代将愈发珍贵。 Foster 强调建筑的重要性并不完全取决于体量或明星效应，如阿联酋利用传统遮阴与风塔原理建造的 Masdar 城，以及曼彻斯特的小型癌症关怀中心，均证明了合理设计能以低消耗带来深远影响。然而，在西方现行开发机制与分配体系下，如何让全社会重新树立对实体营造的尊严，并将设计者过早引入重大决策流程，仍是尚未解决的核心挑战。

## Background 本期节目由彭博社（Bloomberg）旗下的播客节目《Odd Lots》于2026年5月23日发布。节目走访了传奇建筑大师、Foster + Partners 创始人诺曼·福斯特勋爵（Lord Norman Foster），探讨建筑设计如何受制于物理与财务资源约束，以及为何中国能持续推进超级工程，而美英等西方国家却在大型基建上步履维艰。 ## TL;DR 诺曼·福斯特从自身的建筑实践出发，提出“设计本质上是对现实限制的回应”，主张打破传统学科壁垒、推行早期介入的一体化跨学科协作，并在私人委托中兼顾公共价值与长远弹性。福斯特尖锐对比了东西方在基础设施雄心上的巨大鸿沟：中国在短短16年内建成了超5.4万公里的高铁网，而英国的高铁HS2项目却因短视政治遭到腰斩；他认为建筑预算的成败取决于创造性能量与全生命周期价值，而非单纯的初建成本。访谈还深入剖析了建造业生产率滞后、制造工人社会地位边缘化、AI在建筑创新中的本质局限，以及从前工业时代汲取气候智慧的人文主义思考。 ## Atmosphere & style 对话现场感极强且充满智性交锋，主持人以生动轻快的日常软装闲聊开场，随后在福斯特马德里工作室的模型与图纸环绕中，迅速过渡为对宏观政治经济学与建筑哲学的严肃拷问。年逾九旬的福斯特思维敏锐、言辞掷地有声，在回忆战后英国工业雄心与赞扬当代中国高铁速度时流露出鲜明的批判与自豪，既有大师掌控毫米级细节的苛求，又怀揣对一线体力劳动者尊严的深切敬意。整场访谈节奏张弛有度，不仅穿透了建筑美学的表象，更带给听众一种直面物质世界现实矛盾的思想厚重感。 ## Bulletin - `05:00` 建筑大师诺曼·福斯特指出设计本质上是对客观限制（物理、法规与需求）的回应，主张打破传统割裂流程，推行多学科从第一天起协同的一体化系统设计。 - `25:00` 对比东西方基建雄心，中国在16年内建成了超5.4万公里的高铁网络，而英国HS2高铁缩水且航站楼建设历经20年，折射出西方在政治短视与制造能力上的深层困局。 - `30:00` 建筑预算与品质并无必然正向关系，创造性能量是决定资源产出的核心，且西方往往只关注初期建造成本，忽视了空间前瞻性设计所带来的长期全生命周期效益。 - `42:47` 美英等国建筑业生产率滞后，深层根源在于去工业化导致手工艺与‘实体制造者’的社会认同及地位急剧跌落，而人工智能因受限于既往历史数据，无法替代颠覆性的创新构想。 ## Key takeaways - `05:00` 设计本质上是对现实限制的回应，重力力学、预算、区划法规与使用者需求是催生建筑设计的根基而非阻碍。 - `10:00` 传统的线性分工导致建筑、结构与机电严重脱节，一体化协同模式让构件承担双重功能，实现以更少材料达成更高性能。 - `15:00` 私人商业建筑同样能兼顾公共价值，如彭博伦敦总部通过贯通古罗马轴线、设置可呼吸立面与公共拱廊实现与城市肌理的内外交融。 - `20:00` 建筑必须具备前瞻性弹性以容纳未知未来，例如伊普斯威奇威利斯大厦无缝过渡到数字化办公，汇丰总行大厦外置核心筒预留了交易大厅的改建可能。 - `25:00` 国家层面的基础设施雄心与公民自豪感息息相关，中国高效推进超5.4万公里高铁，而英国HS2项目被腰斩反映了当下的政治与战略短视。 - `30:00` 战后英国即使在极度匮乏的配给制时期也能打造出世界最大穹顶、商用喷气客机与商业核电站，证明了开拓雄心胜于物质充裕度。 - `30:00` 建筑品质与造价并不挂钩，它取决于花钱的明智程度；拖延工期是最大资金杀手，快速且合理的交付能最大化利用资金、时间与创造性能量。 - `35:00` 初建成本在建筑全生命周期中只占极小比例，前瞻性设计为机构节省的改造成本和员工健康生产力价值，远超初始的钢筋混凝土开销。 - `40:00` 卓越的客户如史蒂夫·乔布斯与迈克尔·布隆伯格兼具宏观愿景与极致微观审视能力，这种跨尺度碰撞是保障顶级建筑落地的前提。 - `42:47` 英美建筑施工生产率停滞与去工业化紧密相连，社会崇尚法律与金融而贬低体力劳动与手工艺，导致制造传统断层与技术工人短缺。 - `47:48` 建筑学起源于贵族的业余消遣，导致现代建筑师对巨大经济与社会价值的贡献在产业中被严重低估，需要通过早期介入项目决策来重塑话语权。 - `50:18` 人工智能是既有人类历史数据的汇聚，长于在历史概率中归纳，却无法主动做出打破常规的前瞻性空间决策。 - `52:30` 现代零碳建筑需要向古代无电时期的民间智慧取经，通过深长柱廊、遮阳朝向与风塔等自然被动式手段实现适应性。 - `55:00` 媒体往往痴迷于高耸宏伟的视觉奇观，但微型的人文关怀建筑（如癌症关怀中心与小礼拜堂）往往具备更深远的社会与精神价值。 - `56:45` 宏观基建执行力伴随着特定资源调配机制，西方在享受现代化天际线的同时，面临着无人愿意亲手浇筑混凝土的劳动尊严与意愿危机。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### `01:13` 室内装饰与建筑的界限：公共品与私人开发的张力 播客开篇，主持人 Tracy Alloway 与 Joe Weisenthal 展开了一段关于空间设计的日常闲聊。Tracy 提到自己平时花了很多精力琢磨所谓的“室内设计”，但最近她突然意识到，自己做的充其量只能算“室内软装装饰”（interior decorating）。因为她根本没有去改动房屋的物理结构——一方面是因为自己懒、讨厌施工现场的杂乱乌烟瘴气，但更核心的原因在于，改变房屋的物理结构远比换一块窗帘面料或刷一层新油漆复杂得多，它必须直面现实世界中严苛的客观物理与工程限制。Joe 笑着打趣道，两人在彭博社平时相邻而坐，他经常能瞥见 Tracy 在屏幕上精心挑选中古复古壁纸，但他确实从没听 Tracy 提过诸如在家里“砸倒承重墙”这类大动干戈的宏大构想；在纽约，某些富豪会买下相邻的两套公寓并请建筑师打通合并，而那种层面的改造所面临的约束和法定责任完全是另一个维度的挑战。 Tracy 进而从文化变迁的角度思考自己是否也是“时代的产物”：当下的社交媒体和公众审美似乎都极端痴迷于建筑内部的空间陈设与特定美学选品，而如果回到上世纪八九十年代，大众的目光往往聚焦于宏伟的建筑外立面与结构本身。Joe 对此深表赞同，他认为社交媒体确实放大了人们对室内局部的细节执念；但从另一个角度来看，大家所生活的外部世界依然是由建筑师塑造的——比如他们所在的彭博社伦敦总部，就是一座充满大面积玻璃、设计极其惊艳的现代建筑地标。 由此，话题顺理成章地延伸到了建筑与经济学之间的深层交集。Tracy 指出，当一座优秀的建筑诞生时，它本质上会转化为一种“公共品”（public good）：它不仅能激活甚至重塑一个街区、复兴一整座城市，还能梳理公共交通动线并大幅提升能源利用效率。然而，现实中绝大多数建筑项目都是由私人开发商主导投资的，逐利的开发商往往缺乏自发追求卓越公共价值与美学设计的内在激励。如何引导并激励私人资本去打造兼顾公共利益的地标性建筑？Joe 对这一提问深感共鸣，并以纽约天际线上崭新的摩根大通总部大楼（270 Park Avenue）为例，指出这栋高楼不仅点亮了城市天际线，更重新定义了街道与公众的互动边界。而这栋大楼的设计者，正是本期节目的重磅嘉宾。 --- ### `05:00` 设计即是对限制的回应：诺曼·福斯特的建筑哲学 节目随后正式切入在西班牙马德里进行的实地专访。主持人走进了传奇建筑大师、福斯特建筑事务所（Foster + Partners）创始人兼诺曼·福斯特基金会（Norman Foster Foundation）主席诺曼·福斯特勋爵（Lord Norman Foster）的个人工作室兼基金会总部。 对话伊始，Tracy 就抛出了一个直击建筑本质的问题：建筑在多大程度上是在与现实世界的严苛限制（constraints）打交道？在公众眼中，建筑不仅要面对重力和物理力学定律、预算与财务成本，还要受制于繁琐的城市区划法规（zoning）、建筑规范，以及在英国等地区极为严苛的历史建筑保护名录评级（listed building requirements）。 面对这些看似束缚创意的条条框框，福斯特给出了极具哲学深度的回答。他明确指出，设计绝不可能脱离限制而独立存在，相反，“设计本质上就是对限制的回应”（design is really a response to constraints）。建筑从根本上是源于某种实际需求，无论是法典规范的要求，还是空间使用者的具体诉求，都是塑造设计的原动力。福斯特强调，如果失去了这些限制、诉求与性能指标，设计便无从谈起： > “设计就是对需求的回应。如果没有那些限制，没有那些需求，不必去满足特定的性能标准——其中有些指标是切实可触、能够量化的，有些则隐而不显、处于潜意识或冰山之下——设计就失去了根基。” --- ### `06:21` 打破学科壁垒：跨学科一体化协作与重塑教育 Joe 环顾福斯特的工作室，注意到了展架上整齐陈列的各种珍贵木材样本（如樱桃木、李木等），不禁好奇在顶级建筑实践中，建筑师究竟需要对材料科学及材料本身的天然物理特质理解到何种深度。 福斯特回应道，建筑师对项目周边全套议题了解得越深入，作为设计师所获得的赋能就越充分。这种认知促使他在过去数十年间坚持推行一种与传统建筑学院派教育背道而驰的“一体化设计模式”： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 传统隔绝式设计与福斯特一体化设计流程对比 accDescr: 对比传统建筑师与工程师串行割裂的工作流，与福斯特团队多学科早期协同的闭环工作流。 subgraph Traditional["传统割裂式模式 (Siloed Approach)"] direction LR A1["建筑师闭门画方案"] --> A2["转交结构工程师计算承重"] A2 --> A3["转交机电暖通工程师解决冷热"] A3 -.->|反馈迟滞 / 方案割裂| A1 end subgraph Foster["福斯特一体化模式 (Integrated Design)"] direction LR B1["建筑师"] & B2["结构工程师"] & B3["机电与环境工程师"] --> B4{"从第一天起同桌协作"} B4 --> B5["即时双向反馈与性能推演"] B5 --> B6["基于真实数据与限制的最优解"] end ``` 福斯特坦言，批评者常常嘲讽这种方式是“委员会式妥协建筑”（committee architecture），但事实绝非如此。传统的建筑设计流程极其低效且脱节：建筑师常常孤立地完成概念图纸，然后直接甩给结构工程师去想办法让它站立不倒，再甩给暖通工程师去解决室内冬暖夏凉的温控问题，这种线性交接彻底抹杀了设计初期跨学科反馈所带来的优化空间。反之，如果在项目启动的第一天就将所有专业领域的团队召集到同一张桌子旁，整个设计团队就能在双向赋能中建立全局视野。 这一理念之所以推行艰难，根源在于当下专业教育的严重割裂： - **工程师的惯性思维**：传统的工程教育让工程师习惯于扮演被动执行者角色——“只要告诉我你想要什么形态，我就负责把它做出来”。 - **建筑师的孤立思维**：建筑院校训练出来的建筑师往往沉迷于将建筑视为孤立雕塑，甚至忽视建筑与外部街道的有机关系；福斯特特别指出，“街道是传统城市的精髓所在”，然而当今的建筑学与城市规划教育却几乎不教学生如何真正设计一条活力街道。 - **规划师的法条思维**：城市规划人员受到的训练过度集中在划定分区图则（zoning）与繁琐法律条文上，脱离了微观的人居生活肌理。 福斯特表示，这正是他在马德里成立诺曼·福斯特基金会的核心初衷之一：为未来重塑教育体系。基金会致力于培养未来的城市公共领袖，训练他们学会穿透表面喧嚣，凭借真实数据和扎实证据（data and evidence）去科学决策，而非盲从于短期的流行风潮、设计偏见与表面形式风格（fashion, prejudice, and style）。 在对话的尾声，Tracy 敏锐地指出，福斯特的工作室中不仅有木样和建筑图纸，还摆满了汽车、喷气客机、高铁列车以及精密城市沙盘等各种交通工具模型。她提及福斯特过去在一次访谈中曾将“波音747巨无霸客机”（Jumbo Jet）评为自己最喜爱的建筑，并追问福斯特是否内心深处其实更想成为一名工程师。福斯特微笑着坦承自己对飞行器与机械工程的热爱，并总结道：“我热爱飞行，我热爱汽车。作为设计师，我们的灵感在很大程度上正是直接汲取自卓越的工程师。” ### `10:00` 巨无霸客机与系统集成设计哲学 Norman Foster 谈到自己之前将巨型喷气客机（Jumbo Jet）作为比喻时带有一点调侃意味，但核心目的在于引导人们换一个角度去审视这些宏大造物。巨无霸客机本质上是一个融合了餐厅、电影院和酒店的复合空间，而且它在承载这些功能的同时还在高速穿梭于世界各地。更深层次的奇迹在于飞行本身：几吨重、在跑道上显得笨重迟缓的庞然大物，居然能够瞬间悬浮升空，将人类送往遥远的大陆。这为建筑界提供了极具价值的启示——人类应当如何驾驭技术来切实提升生活品质。 大众往往认为建筑师的工作就是坐在图纸前勾勒线条与草图，随后将图纸丢给工程咨询公司，再由施工总包去建造。Foster 明确指出这种单向线性的传统流程割裂了构思与落地，就像金融交易中“脑海中的完美交易构想”与“实际操盘执行”之间存在巨大鸿沟。就在录音当天上午，Foster 刚刚在基金会与建筑师团队以及即将负责施工的承建方围坐开会。他们当场敲定下一阶段绝不能闭门造车，必须立即邀请环境工程师与结构工程师参与下次会议。如果遵循传统模式各自分工、画完图直接转交，就会白白错失巨大的整合创新空间。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 传统建筑设计流程与系统集成设计流程对比 accDescr: 传统模式是单向线性的交接，而系统集成模式是将建筑、结构、机电多方协同整合，达到以少胜多的效果。 subgraph Traditional["传统线性模式（错失优化机会）"] A["建筑师画草图"] --> B["转交工程咨询公司"] B --> C["交由施工总包建造"] end subgraph Integrated["系统集成设计（Doing More with Less）"] D["建筑构思 + 建造方介入"] E["环境工程师 + 结构工程师联合"] D <--> E E --> F["构件兼具多重功能（承重/围护/微气候调节）"] end ``` 为了向汽车行业的工程师和制造商解释这种理念，Foster 引用了 1930 年代汽车工业的标志性转折。彼时所有量产汽车都遵循着“非承载式底盘加上保护乘客免受风雨侵蚀的外壳车身”这一固定模式。直到克莱斯勒气流（Chrysler Airflow）诞生，车身不再仅仅是一层外壳，而是化为结构整体的一部分。这不仅让车身更轻，强度也产生质的飞跃。当年克莱斯勒的宣传片将汽车推下山崖，车辆一路翻滚着地后四轮平稳着陆，有人随即从灌木丛走出，拉开车门直接把车开走。底盘与外壳两大独立系统合二为一，用更少的材料实现了更强大的性能。Foster 指出，建筑的外立面设计、采暖和制冷亦是同理。将全专业融合在一起以系统化方法开展设计，构件就能承担双重职能（Double duty）——部件更少、性能更高、品质更优，而这一切最终都服务于同一个社会性目的。 --- ### `15:00` 私人委托中的公共利益与彭博伦敦总部的“内外交融” 当被问及接受商业机构或私人客户委托（如摩根大通大厦或彭博总部大楼）时如何兼顾公共利益，Foster 阐述了他的核心设计方法论：建筑师必须同时从“由内向外”（Inside out）和“由外向内”（Outside in）两个维度进行推演。虽然内部使用者与外部公众在表面上是完全分离的群体，但建筑始终坐落于公共领域之中。 以彭博伦敦总部（Bloomberg European Headquarters）为例，设计初期的关键决断就是将整座建筑与正对面的古罗马大道沃特林街（Watling Street）的轴线交汇穿透。项目保留并延续了这一历史文脉，在建筑内部辟出一条贯穿的公共拱廊步道，并在上方设立连廊。这一处理自然而然地消解了巨大体量的压迫感，使建筑尺度更加贴近人体。在公共空间中，设计团队邀请艺术家打造了“水景长椅”，这一构思再次体现了系统双重功能原则——长椅既是吸引人群休憩聚集的城市家具，又在无形之中充当了安全防撞柱（Bollard），避免了传统防撞隔离桩的丑陋与突兀。 - 贯通的公共拱廊引入了沿街商铺，契合彭博“让私人机构进驻不仅不蚕食周边小商贩，反而赋能并提振当地社区商业”的哲学。 - 建筑立面设计为可呼吸式构造，能够大量吸纳新鲜空气，显著提升室内员工的健康环境。 - 外观摒弃了冰冷的玻璃盒子造型，采用考究的青铜与当地开采的原生石材拼接，与周围相邻的历史保护建筑在材质和肌理上达成和谐共生。 --- ### `20:00` 水平沟通、文化差异与应对未来的建筑弹性 彭博总部通过采用低矮而深进深的建筑体量，展现出对周边同等体量历史街区的敬意，同时在建筑内部构建起开阔的水平连通感（Horizontality）。对于一家以信息交互为核心的企业而言，横向延展的开敞空间极大促进了人与人之间的直接沟通。与之相对，Foster 也对比了截然不同的企业文化场景，例如他在北京设计的一栋高科技公司大楼，其组织精神推崇团队之间的内部竞争，其空间形态便走向了完全相反的极端。这表明建筑设计本质上是一场平衡与调和的艺术，既要满足多重利益相关方，又要让空间在公共领域与私密体验之间自如切换。 针对亚洲尤其是中国持续涌现的超级工程（Mega-projects），Foster 强调，建筑需求背后的驱动力往往超越地域。不管是迈克尔·布隆伯格、史蒂夫·乔布斯这样具有强烈个人印记的领导者，还是去中心化的匿名企业实体，每一座建筑都是其组织价值观与抱负的载体。然而，全球所有建筑面临的共通课题是：**如何在当下设计中预判并容纳未来？** - **威利斯-费伯大楼（Willis Faber and Dumas Building，伊普斯威奇）**：在近期迎来落成 50 周年。该保险总部在 1970 年代初设计时被赋予了极高的空间弹性，尽管当时没人能料到这种冗余度有何用处。项目落成时办公室里全是在打字机前工作的职员，但当数字化革命席卷而来、计算机屏幕全面普及，它是整个保险行业唯一一座无需伤筋动骨就无缝融入数字办公时代的总部建筑。 - **香港汇丰总行大厦（HSBC Main Building，香港）**：在迎来落成 40 周年之际依然极具前瞻性。项目打破了将结构、垂直交通、卫生间与设备机房塞进中央核心筒的传统塔楼范式，将所有服务性设施外推打散至大楼两侧，释放出巨大的开敞 Loft 空间。1970 年代末竞标时，无人预见金融界会出现需要视线无遮挡、空间极其辽阔的“交易大厅”（Trading Floor），但大厦的开放骨架让这一突发需求被轻松吸收。 ### `25:00` 基建的魄力：中国的高铁飞跃与英国的短视停滞 在探讨建筑设计时，诺曼·福斯特（Norman Foster）提出，建筑应当立足于当下的需求，铭记过去的经验，同时尽可能前瞻难以预测的未来。但在大型基础设施领域，这种长远眼光的差异在东西方之间表现得尤为剧烈。过去三十年间，福斯特频繁往返于亚洲尤其是中国，亲眼见证了翻天覆地的巨变。他回忆起早期向彭博社活动听众展示的照片：曾经的中国城市被浓重的雾霾笼罩，甚至看不清轮廓；而如今，城市空气洁净，90% 的道路车辆实现了电动化，上海和北京的城市绿化覆盖率均达到惊人的 50%。 更具震撼力的是国家级互联互通基础设施的建设速度。在短短 16 年内，中国建成了超过 5.4 万公里的高速铁路网，列车运营时速达到 220 英里（约 350 公里/小时），将全国 97% 的城市紧密串联，在高峰日客流量甚至达到 1300 万人次。福斯特特别指出，中国这 5.4 万公里的高铁里程，远超世界其他国家总和。反观英国，连接伦敦与曼彻斯特的高铁项目（HS2）后半段被中途腰斩，最终只能通往伯明翰。福斯特批评这是一种典型的政治短视：“英国政府甚至设立了一个专门的‘升级均衡发展部’（Department for Levelling Up），但最根本的均衡发展正是物理上的互通互联，他们完全没有领会这一本质。” 福斯特认为，这种基础设施的退化与一个国家所处的历史周期息息相关。在国家崛起的鼎盛期，强烈的“公民自豪感”（civic pride）会催生突破性的工程创举。例如英国在工业革命与日不落帝国时代，修建泰晤士河堤岸工程不仅成功遏制了霍乱疫情，还通过系统性思维将地下高速公共交通、排污与城市景观融为一体，真正做到了“以少成多”。福斯特回忆自己 16 岁时的第一份工作就是在曼彻斯特市政厅。那座由阿尔弗雷德·沃特豪斯（Alfred Waterhouse）通过竞赛中标设计的维多利亚哥特式建筑，正是昔日公民自豪感的终极象征，深深震撼并启蒙了当时尚未正式学习建筑的年轻福斯特。 - 中国高铁里程突破 5.4 万公里，仅用 16 年就覆盖了 97% 的主要城市，单日客运量最高达 1300 万人次。 - 英国 HS2 高铁计划缩水，放弃延伸至曼彻斯特，暴露出深层的政策短视。 - 北京首都国际机场（T3 航站楼）规模宏大，仅用 5 年便拔地而起；相比之下，规模小得多的伦敦希思罗机场 5 号航站楼（Terminal 5）历时整整 20 年才完工，福斯特形容它就像是贴在希思罗老旧躯体上的一块“创可贴”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 基础设施雄心与建设对比 accDescr: 对比中国当代超级工程与英国早期及现代基建项目的推进逻辑和效率差距 subgraph 东方当代超级工程["当代远见与执行力（中国）"] A1["顶层规划与战略执行"] --> A2["5.4万公里高铁网（16年建成）"] A1 --> A3["北京首都机场T3（5年完工）"] A2 & A3 --> A4["97%城市互联 / 高效运转"] end subgraph 西方历史与现状对比["历史自豪感 vs 当代短视（英国）"] B1["工业革命时期：泰晤士堤岸 / 曼彻斯特市政厅"] --> B2["系统性工程与公民自豪感"] C1["当代困局：过度官僚与政治妥协"] --> C2["HS2高铁北延段取消（止步伯明翰）"] C1 --> C3["希思罗T5航站楼（历时20年）"] end ``` --- ### `30:00` 雄心的衰落：从1951年不列颠节到建筑预算哲学 当被问及英国究竟在何时遗失了这种宏大雄心时，福斯特分享了一个生动的工作轶事：在近期指导事务所年轻建筑师设计大型穹顶时，他随口提及了 1951 年“不列颠节”（Festival of Britain）上的著名穹顶建筑。令他震惊的是，团队里的年轻建筑师们对此一无所知。经过一番查证后，年轻人目瞪口呆地跑回来问他：“为什么我们从来没听说过这个建筑？”那座名为“探索穹顶”（Dome of Discovery）的建筑曾是当时全球跨度最大的单体穹顶，却在政党轮替后因政治原因被新一届政府视作前朝遗产的威胁，遭到无情拆除，如今南岸仅留存了皇家节日音乐厅（Royal Festival Hall）。 福斯特感叹，1951 年的英国刚刚经历二战摧残，社会正处于极其严酷的紧缩与配给制之中，人们必须凭食品券和布票生活。然而，恰恰是在那样极度匮乏的年代，英国孕育出了世界第一座商业核电站、全球首架商业喷气式客机德哈维兰“彗星”号（de Havilland Comet），以及能够以 120 英里时速持续巡航、造价相当于两栋半独立别墅的宾利 R-Type 欧陆跑车。那是一个充满突破性发明与制造实力的巅峰时代，而如今由于复杂的政治与社会体制变迁，这种开拓雄心逐渐让位于保守与内耗。 从战后配给制的话题引申开来，主持人提问像福斯特建筑事务所（Foster + Partners）这样的顶级机构是如何与客户制定预算的。福斯特打破了外界对“造价与品质划等号”的固有认知。他直言，建筑预算并没有死板的公式，最关键的事实是：“建筑的品质与你在它身上花了多少钱之间，并不存在必然联系。”现实中有大量豪掷千金却令人避之不及的灾难建筑，也有许多在极低预算下落成的典雅高贵之作。福斯特总结道：“品质是一种心智态度（attitude of mind），它不在于你花了多少钱，而在于你花钱有多明智。” - 1951 年不列颠节展示了战后紧缩时期的非凡技术突破（包括世界最大穹顶、商用客机彗星号、核电与顶尖汽车工业），却因政治轮替遭到人为拆除抹煞。 - 决定项目成功的三大核心资源：资金（Money）、时间（Time）以及创造性能量（Creative Energy）。 - 在预算控制中，拖延工期是资金最大的隐形杀手，通常在合理限度内以更快的速度交付项目，资金利用效率才能达到最高。 --- ### `35:00` 创造性能量与生命周期成本：重估建筑的真正价值 在资金、时间与创造性能量这三大资源中，福斯特坚定地认为，创造性能量是“迄今为止最有价值的资源”，因为正是设计团队的巧思和创造力决定了客户的一分一毫究竟能换来怎样的成果。面对不清楚具体预算方案的客户，事务所往往会通过精确的建模与场景模拟来提供决策辅助。福斯特用选购汽车打了个通俗的比方：一辆车的基础裸车成本可能很低，但出展厅时的最终价格完全取决于选配了哪些增配功能；建筑亦是如此，在设计初期通过模拟推演来定义预算，本身就是核心创造过程的一部分。 更重要的是，西方当下在评估大型项目时往往犯下一个致命错误：只盯紧初建成本，而忽略了全生命周期的运营成本与生产力收益。福斯特强调，在漫长的时间维度里，建筑最初的建造造价在整体商业大盘中其实只占微不足道的极小比例。真正决定建筑成败的，是它能否为机构赋予未来的应变弹性与效率飞跃。 福斯特举出了自己早期的两个标志性案例来佐证这一观点：香港汇丰总行大厦（HSBC Building）在落成后能够轻而易举地引入高密度的现代化交易大厅，这种空间的超前适应性该如何定价？又如英国伊普斯威奇的威利斯-费伯大楼（Willis Faber & Dumas headquarters），由于极具前瞻性的无柱大开间与架空地板设计，当数字化与计算机技术浪潮席卷金融业时，业主无需重新征地另建新楼，直接在原建筑内便完成了全面信息化改造，这又为企业省下了多少亿的潜在支出？不仅如此，一座能够显著改善员工健康、激发灵感并大幅提升工作效率的建筑，其所创造的持续生产力价值，早已远远超出了初期的混凝土与钢材造价。 - 建筑成本的汽车选配效应：基础结构成本相对可控，决定最终造价的是材料、技术细节与附加功能的选择。 - 初建成本（First Cost）只是冰山一角，建筑的日常运营能耗与长期适应性才是全生命周期成本的大头。 - 汇丰总行大厦与威利斯-费伯大楼的实践证明，前瞻性的建筑设计能让企业轻松容纳数十年后的新技术迭代，避免了昂贵的拆建与搬迁成本。 *(注：音频尾声为节目商业赞助广告，涵盖 4imprint 品牌定制礼品服务以及美属维尔京群岛旅游推广内容。)* ### `40:00` 兼顾微观细节与宏观愿景：与乔布斯及布隆伯格的合作 谈及为苹果公司（Apple）设计标志性的环形总部大楼（Apple Park），主持人好奇 Foster + Partners 与一家同样以极致视觉设计和创造力闻名的科技巨头合作，是否会带来截然不同的体验。诺曼·福斯特（Norman Foster）表示事实并非如此，因为两者在核心追求上完全契合。他回忆史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）具备一种罕见的能力——他能屈膝双膝跪地、全神贯注地纠结一个插头与插座的毫米级微观细节，同时又对建筑与园区的宏观全局保持极度敏锐。在福斯特看来，能够深刻理解这种跨尺度张力（importance of scale）的人凤毛麟角。 福斯特随即提到了迈克尔·布隆伯格（Mike Bloomberg）。他指出，布隆伯格也是这种能贯通微观与宏观的典型人物。在任何交谈中，布隆伯格会突然对某个微小细节发难，例如探讨是否铺设实木地板以及随之而来的连锁技术反应；他甚至能当场与垂直交通顾问就电梯工程细节展开硬碰硬的辩论。福斯特由衷感叹道：“与那些敢于提出质疑和挑战的人合作是最令人兴奋的。”正是设计过程中这种相互质疑、不断推敲的张力，直接成就了最终卓越的建筑结果。 - **史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）的双重视角**：既能跪在地上研究插座与插头的工艺细节，又能掌控 Apple Park 巨型环状园区的宏观规划。 - **迈克尔·布隆伯格（Mike Bloomberg）的严苛追问**：亲自参与讨论实木地板选材与电梯升降系统技术规格，挑战专业咨询顾问。 - **设计的辩证法则**：跨越宏观愿景（Big Picture）与微小构件（Tiny Detail）的互相碰撞，是保障工程品质的最佳途径。 --- ### `42:47` 建造业的生产率困境与“制造者”的社会地位 当被问及为何近几十年来全球几乎所有行业都实现了生产率的飞跃，唯独美英等国的建筑施工行业在技术和效率上严重滞后时，福斯特将核心原因归结为社会文化对“制造（making）”与“手艺（craft）”的认同差异。他援引了丹·王（Dan Wang）的著作《疾驰》（*Breakneck*）中的核心论点：中国在体制和层级上由工程师主导，核心导向是“亲手把东西造出来”；而美国社会很大程度上由律师主导，两者的社会优先事项截然不同。 福斯特进一步对比了欧洲内部的文化分歧。在瑞士，细木工等传统手工艺制作者享有极高的社会地位和尊严。反观英国，当今建筑工地上劳作的多是讲波兰语的工人，原因在于工匠技艺在波兰依然蓬勃传承并输出海外。福斯特动情地回忆起自己在1951年16岁时的英国社会，随后直言不讳地指出，虽然玛格丽特·撒切尔（Margaret Thatcher）执政时期有诸多积极举措，但其政策的一大严重弊端在于瓦解了英国本土的工业制造基础，导致“亲手制造之人群”的社会认同与地位随之跌落谷底。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 建造业生产率与社会地位的关系 accDescr: 比较工程制造导向型社会与法律金融导向型社会的生产率和地位差异 subgraph SocietalValue["社会价值导向"] A["工程师与制造文化<br/>（中国 / 瑞士 / 波兰）"] B["法律与金融服务导向<br/>（美国 / 去工业化后的英国）"] end subgraph LaborStatus["工匠与工人的社会地位"] C["工匠技艺受尊重<br/>保留制造传统与动手能力"] D["去工业化导致手工艺断层<br/>依赖外来劳工 / 生产率滞后"] end subgraph IndustryImpact["建造业生产率与落地能力"] E["高执行力与工业化建造能力"] F["现场协作脱节与效率长期停滞"] end A --> C --> E B --> D --> F ``` --- ### `45:47` 耶鲁建筑系的造屋传统与劳动的崇高感 福斯特以自己刚从耶鲁大学建筑学院毕业的女儿为例，生动展现了重塑建造认同的可能。耶鲁建筑学院有一个独树一帜的传统：一年级新生在第一年必须亲手设计并实际建造一栋真正的房屋。在专业建造师傅的指导下，学生们戴上安全帽、踩进泥泞的工地，亲身把图纸上的线条转化为实体居所，最终交付给真实家庭入住并接受现实检验。 福斯特回忆道，女儿在工地现场给他打电话时感叹：“这是我第一次真正体会并感激体力劳动者的付出，我终于明白了制造的意义。”福斯特强调，无论是在自己的建筑事务所还是基金会项目中，他始终推崇一种理念——建筑师必须戴上安全帽深入工地和工厂，走到浑身沾满泥巴的工匠中间。他认为，在这个普遍脱离实物的时代，亲手“制造”带有一种不可替代的崇高感（nobility in making），那些守护人类安全、健康以及亲手建造世界的人，理应在社会中享有更高的尊严与声誉。 - **耶鲁一年级造房项目（First-Year Building Project）**：学生从概念设计到泥水施工全程参与，建造供真实家庭居住的住宅。 - **走出图纸现场**：打破象牙塔式的设计教学，推崇“泥泞靴子与安全帽”（muddy boots and hard hats）的现场实践精神。 - **劳动的崇高价值**：亲手造物的人与医生、护卫者一样，是维系社会运转的核心基石，社会地位不应被低估。 --- ### `47:48` 建筑师的职业困境：从贵族余兴到价值低估 针对建筑行业打破专业壁垒、实现设计与工程一体化协同却导致建筑师收费份额缩水、薪资落后于医生和律师的现状，福斯特深入剖析了该职业的历史根源。他指出，建筑学在诞生之初带有浓厚的贵族色彩，往往被视作“绅士的业余消遣”（gentleman's pursuit）。在那个时代，建筑师服务的对象仅仅是社会极小比例的标志性建筑——如大教堂（cathedrals）或市政厅（town halls）；医院多由其他旧建筑改造而来，而机场与火车站根本尚未诞生。 然而在现代社会，人类所需的建筑空间呈爆炸式增长，建筑师在项目成败中扮演着决定性角色。设计不仅直接决定了项目的最终造价、运营能效，还关乎公共领域的长远价值。但现实中，这一职业却处于“被低估、被贬值且报酬微薄”（underappreciated, undervalued, and underpaid）的尴尬境地。福斯特强调，要改变这一产业格局，必须推动建筑行业在项目决策的最早阶段介入，让全社会真正认识到前端设计对整体经济与社会效益的决定性掌控力。 --- ### `50:18` 人工智能的边界：过去的积累无法预见未来的创新 谈到人工智能（AI）是否会进一步取代建筑师并压低行业价值，福斯特提出了极富哲理的反思。他认为，AI 与当年的“可持续建筑”概念相似，并非一夜之间爆发的新奇事物，而是一个长期演进、逐渐汇入主流的过程。早在20世纪60年代，Foster + Partners 就将可持续理念作为核心实践，当时被视作边缘探索，如今却成为了全球头条共识。 福斯特犀利地指出了 AI 的底层局限：人工智能本质上是“所有既往人类经验与数据的总和”（accumulated history），而历史归根结底属于过去。福斯特以自己的开创性设计为例反问：若要设计一座摒弃传统中央核心筒的超高层塔楼，将核心服务设施全部移至建筑外部，AI 永远不可能主动构想出这一方案，因为它训练集里充斥的尽是关于传统核心筒建筑的既往知识。福斯特将数字时代的实体价值打了一个生动的比方：“这就像走进史蒂夫·乔布斯的家，发现底座上陈列着一本罕见的古籍善本——在数字化时代，这种不可替代的稀缺物反而变得越发珍贵。” | 维度 | 人工智能（AI） | 真正的前瞻性建筑师 | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **底层逻辑** | 归纳过去（Accumulated History），基于既有数据的统计概率 | 创造未来，打破惯性思维做出全新决策 | | **典型局限 / 突破** | 仅能生成标准核心筒大楼的已知衍生变体 | 敢于完全移除中央核心筒，彻底重构高层空间范式 | | **在时代中的角色** | 提高效率的高级工具，提供历史参照 | 赋予独创性洞察，扮演类似数字时代的“罕见孤本” | --- ### `52:30` 超越“明星建筑师”标签：向无电时代的古老智慧取经 对于外界常将他冠以“明星建筑师”（Starchitect）头衔以及未来是否还会涌现大众耳熟能详的名宿建筑师，福斯特并未直接陷入名衔之争，而是将视线转向了历史长河中的建筑智慧。他强调，自己频繁引用历史建筑并非出于复古怀旧，而是为了汲取能够解决当下危机的现实经验。 他以团队在阿联酋沙漠中打造的全太阳能社区——马斯达尔城（Masdar City）为例。这一零碳先锋项目之所以能成功抵御沙漠极端酷暑，并非依赖现代电网驱动的大规模机械空调，而是复刻了前工业时代无电可用的传统智慧。设计通过压缩街道尺度为行人遮阳、精确计算建筑朝向以形成阴影、利用局部水体与植被诱发蒸发冷却（evaporative cooling）、设置深长柱廊以及精巧的建筑分层构造来捕捉自然冷空气。福斯特指出，理解并转化这些历经千百年检验的气候适应策略，远比争论个人名望更关乎建筑学的未来。 ### `55:00` 从“无名建筑”到人文关怀：重新审视“明星建筑师”与建筑的真正价值 诺曼·福斯特（Norman Foster）阐述了如何从历史悠久的传统建筑智慧中汲取灵感。古代工匠在没有现代空调技术的情况下，懂得利用高空风塔引流凉风；福斯特团队将这些“无建筑师的建筑”（architecture without architects）中所蕴含的古老智慧与当代前沿科技相结合，证明了即使在极端严酷的环境下，人类依然可以依托太阳能等可持续能源，享有现代生活的高品质。面对主持人将目光投向他并提及“明星建筑师”（starchitect）这一标签时，福斯特坦然笑言，某些体量庞大、视觉震撼的建筑确实更容易吸引聚光灯，但他更希望带大家去看那些规模极小却意义深远的人文作品。 福斯特特别提到了他在曼彻斯特设计的麦琪癌症关怀中心（Maggie's Centre），以及在威尼斯一座岛屿上建造的极简微型礼拜堂（Venice Biennale Chapel）。在他看来，这些医疗健康与精神慰藉类空间所产生的社会影响力极其深远，但媒体往往更热衷于追逐“世界之最”——无论是当时体量最大的超级工程模型，还是像法国米约高架桥（Millau Viaduct）那样刷新高度记录的地标。“在许多时候，最具新闻噱头的建筑，并不等同于这个时代最重要、最有价值的作品。” - **传统智慧与科技融合**：学习古代无名工匠的风塔被动通风技术，在严苛气候中依靠太阳能实现宜居环境。 - **微型建筑的社会价值**：曼彻斯特麦琪癌症关怀中心与威尼斯微型礼拜堂，虽体量微小，但在人文关怀与治愈功能上具有不可替代的重大意义。 - **媒体聚焦与真正价值的错位**：新闻媒体偏爱米约高架桥（Millau Viaduct）或摩天大楼等“最大、最高”的视觉奇观，但建筑的深层价值往往沉淀于服务日常生命体验的微观场所中。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 建筑价值的双重维度对比 accDescr: 对比轰动效应的地标工程与深具人文价值的微型民生建筑 subgraph Media["媒体聚焦维度（Newsworthy）"] A["超级工程与视觉奇观"] --> B["世界最高 / 最大体量"] B --> C["米约高架桥 (Millau Viaduct) 等地标"] end subgraph Impact["真实社会价值维度（Significant Impact）"] D["微观尺度与人文关怀"] --> E["医疗健康与精神空间"] E --> F["麦琪关怀中心 (Maggie's) / 威尼斯小礼拜堂"] end ``` --- ### `56:45` 主持人复盘：建造雄心背后的政治经济学与劳动的尊严 在福斯特退场后，主持人特雷西·艾洛韦（Tracy Alloway）和乔·维森塔尔（Joe Weisenthal）对整场对话进行了深度复盘。特雷西打趣称自己听完后备受启发，甚至想立刻回家把家里的墙给拆了做改造；而乔则坦言，他完全没想到一位世界顶级建筑师的访谈，最终竟如此深刻地切入了硬核的“政治经济学”核心。两人原本预期讨论的是美学与造型，福斯特却直击痛点，剖析了为什么英国和美国等西方国家逐渐丧失了“建造伟大工程”的意愿与能力——历史上大兴土木的时代往往与抑制居民消费、资源集中紧密相连，而中国近年来能够不断推进超级工程，同样伴随着特定形式的金融抑制与储蓄转化。福斯特在对话中甚至准确引用了科技与工业分析师王丹（Dan Wang）关于工程制造的论点，令主持人惊叹不已。 乔和特雷西进一步将话题延伸至此前采访宾夕法尼亚州阿伦敦（Allentown）市长马特·图尔克（Matt Tuerk）时的讨论：制造业与工程建造中的“劳动尊严”（dignity at work）。在现代社会中，每个人都向往深圳那样流光溢彩、高楼林立的天际线，但现实的残酷悖论在于，西方现代社会几乎没有人愿意成为亲手浇筑混凝土的建筑工人，也没有政治意愿去调配全社会的资源来支撑这种艰苦的实体劳作。如何让“制造与建造”这项工作重新具备吸引力、自豪感与尊严，已成为当下西方世界在基建领域面临的最核心社会挑战之一。 - **宏观经济约束**：大兴土木与居民消费偏好之间存在资源博弈；中国强大的基建执行力背后有着特殊的资本积累与资源调配机制（即王丹在论著中所探讨的工程师红利与制造生态）。 - **劳动的尊严与现实困境**：全社会享受现代化摩天大楼带来的繁荣景观，却普遍缺乏投身一线建筑产业的意愿，蓝领建筑工人的社会地位与劳动吸引力亟待重构。 - **播客收尾互动**：主持人致谢制作团队（Carmen Rodriguez、Dashel Bennett、Kael Brooks、Kevin Lozano），并邀请听众加入 Discord 社区参与经济与基建话题的探讨。 ## Notable quotes > `05:00` 设计本质上就是对限制的回应。如果没有那些限制，没有那些需求，不必去满足特定的性能标准——其中有些指标是切实可触、能够量化的，有些则隐而不显、处于潜意识或冰山之下——设计就失去了根基。 — Norman Foster > `06:21` 街道是传统城市的精髓所在，然而当今的建筑学与城市规划教育却几乎不教学生如何真正设计一条活力街道。 — Norman Foster > `06:21` 我热爱飞行，我热爱汽车。作为设计师，我们的灵感在很大程度上正是直接汲取自卓越的工程师。 — Norman Foster > `25:00` 英国政府甚至设立了一个专门的‘升级均衡发展部’，但最根本的均衡发展正是物理上的互通互联，他们完全没有领会这一本质。 — Norman Foster > `30:00` 建筑的品质与你在它身上花了多少钱之间，并不存在必然联系。品质是一种心智态度，它不在于你花了多少钱，而在于你花钱有多明智。 — Norman Foster > `40:00` 与那些敢于提出质疑和挑战的人合作是最令人兴奋的。 — Norman Foster > `45:47` 这是我第一次真正体会并感激体力劳动者的付出，我终于明白了制造的意义。 — Norman Foster's daughter > `45:47` 在这个普遍脱离实物的时代，亲手‘制造’带有一种不可替代的崇高感，那些守护人类安全、健康以及亲手建造世界的人，理应在社会中享有更高的尊严与声誉。 — Norman Foster > `50:18` 这就像走进史蒂夫·乔布斯的家，发现底座上陈列着一本罕见的古籍善本——在数字化时代，这种不可替代的稀缺物反而变得越发珍贵。 — Norman Foster > `55:00` 在许多时候，最具新闻噱头的建筑，并不等同于这个时代最重要、最有价值的作品。 — Norman Foster ## Mentioned Norman Foster, Foster + Partners, Norman Foster Foundation, Tracy Alloway, Joe Weisenthal, Bloomberg, JPMorgan Chase, 270 Park Avenue, Boeing 747 Jumbo Jet, Chrysler Airflow, Bloomberg European Headquarters, Watling Street, Willis Faber and Dumas Building, HSBC Main Building (Hong Kong), Steve Jobs, Apple Park, HS2, Alfred Waterhouse, Manchester Town Hall, Festival of Britain (1951), Dome of Discovery, Royal Festival Hall, de Havilland Comet, Bentley R-Type Continental, Beijing Capital International Airport (Terminal 3), Heathrow Airport Terminal 5, Dan Wang, Breakneck, Margaret Thatcher, Yale School of Architecture, Masdar City, Maggie's Centre Manchester, Venice Biennale Chapel, Millau Viaduct, Matt Tuerk ## Video description <p>Not many people think of designing buildings as an exercise in economics, but the entire process is defined by constraints around resources (both physical and financial), and an iconic building can also have a huge impact on the wealth and development of the area around it. So how do you encourage private developers to consider the public good when designing new projects? And how are some countries able to encourage more landmark building projects than others? In this episode, we speak with Norman Foster, renowned architect and founder of Foster + Partners. We talk to him about how constraints impact his own design process, how building budgets actually work, what makes a building successful in the long run, why China keeps completing mega-project after mega-project, and why places like the UK and the US are now struggling to keep up.</p> <p><a href="http://bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots" data-link-cookie="1" data-destination="http://bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots">Subscribe to the Odd Lots Newsletter</a><br>Join the conversation: <a href="https://discord.gg/oddlots" data-destination="https://discord.gg/oddlots">discord.gg/oddlots</a></p><p>See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.</p> [Source](https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/8a94442e-5a74-4fa2-8b8d-ae27003a8d6b/2c3278e4-33a1-46bb-84f9-b4520149bcf9/audio.mp3?in_playlist=982f5071-765c-403d-969d-ae27003a8d83)

[5:00] Norman Foster: 设计本质上就是对限制的回应。如果没有那些限制，没有那些需求，不必去满足特定的性能标准——其中有些指标是切实可触、能够量化的，有些则隐而不显、处于潜意识或冰山之下——设计就失去了根基。 [6:21] Norman Foster: 街道是传统城市的精髓所在，然而当今的建筑学与城市规划教育却几乎不教学生如何真正设计一条活力街道。 [6:21] Norman Foster: 我热爱飞行，我热爱汽车。作为设计师，我们的灵感在很大程度上正是直接汲取自卓越的工程师。 [25:00] Norman Foster: 英国政府甚至设立了一个专门的‘升级均衡发展部’，但最根本的均衡发展正是物理上的互通互联，他们完全没有领会这一本质。 [30:00] Norman Foster: 建筑的品质与你在它身上花了多少钱之间，并不存在必然联系。品质是一种心智态度，它不在于你花了多少钱，而在于你花钱有多明智。 [40:00] Norman Foster: 与那些敢于提出质疑和挑战的人合作是最令人兴奋的。 [45:47] Norman Foster's daughter: 这是我第一次真正体会并感激体力劳动者的付出，我终于明白了制造的意义。 [45:47] Norman Foster: 在这个普遍脱离实物的时代，亲手‘制造’带有一种不可替代的崇高感，那些守护人类安全、健康以及亲手建造世界的人，理应在社会中享有更高的尊严与声誉。 [50:18] Norman Foster: 这就像走进史蒂夫·乔布斯的家，发现底座上陈列着一本罕见的古籍善本——在数字化时代，这种不可替代的稀缺物反而变得越发珍贵。 [55:00] Norman Foster: 在许多时候，最具新闻噱头的建筑，并不等同于这个时代最重要、最有价值的作品。

[50:00] Norman Foster: Artificial intelligence is accumulated history. What is history? It's the past. So that is going to make it even more important for those who use all the advantages of artificial intelligence but are not inhibitedly dependent on it.

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Health care doesn always work great If you ever waited on a refill or couldn schedule an appointment you get it That the kind of stuff Optum is changing They using data and technology to integrate patient care pharmacy and everything else So health care is connected not complicated What that look like Cheaper prescriptions that are easier to get and care that looks at the whole person how you need it Optum is helping make healthcare work as one for everyone. Learn more at business.optum.com. Bloomberg Audio Studios, podcasts, radio, news. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Allaway. And I'm Joe Weisendahl. Joe, you know I spend a lot of my time doing interior design. Yes. I've bored you, I'm sure, with a lot of thoughts on this topic. But then it struck me recently that actually what I'm doing is not really interior design. It's actually just interior decorating. Because I'm not really changing the structure of a particular house. I don't like doing that in part because I'm lazy and I hate construction mess, but also because it's a lot harder to change the particular design of a house than it is to just get new fabric for the windows or a new paint color. There are more real world constraints. Yeah that an interesting way to put it I can confirm having looked over from time to time you know we sit next to each other I can confirm having looked at you say like looking out wallpaper and vintage wallpaper that you might be acquiring But no I have not heard of you sort of talk about, you know, knocking down big walls or whatever inside your home. Although I certainly, you know, in New York City, you know, people who do that and they hire an architect as part of, they'll buy two condos or something like that and conjoin them and hire an architect and so forth. That's a different level. It's a different level of constraints and obligations. Well, this is the other thing I've been thinking. Am I a product of my time? Because so much of the cultural emphasis nowadays seems to be on interior design and what the inside of a building looks like versus the exterior. And I think if I had been thinking about these things in the 90s or the 80s, I would be much more into architecture. It's a really interesting thought, and I hadn't really thought of it that way, but that makes a lot of sense. And my, you know, my uninformed gut is like, oh, does social media make it so that people are just much more obsessed with the interior design of a building, the specific aesthetic choices that are made. But of course, on the other hand you know we work at Bloomberg We have a big office in London Many beautiful buildings Many beautiful buildings lots of glass a new London HQ absolutely gorgeous building etc And so we do live surrounded in this world that the world we live in is one that was built by architects or designed by architects Absolutely. And this was the other thing I was thinking about architecture in relation to economics is when it's done well, a beautiful building ends up being a public good. It can boost an entire neighborhood. It can revive a particular city. It can improve the flow of traffic, improve energy efficiency, do all these things. But so many buildings are still designed by private developers, and I'm not sure they're always incentivized to do beautiful design in that way. How do you incentivize a private developer to do something that ends up being a public good? It's a fascinating question. I hadn't really thought of it framed in that. But like, for example, again, the new J.P. Morgan building in New York City. I like it. I don't work there, but I think it's like a cool addition to Skyline. It blinks, etc. There's a lot of cool things. But how do you design, how do you incentivize a public good as a good way to frame it? Well, since you mentioned the J.P. Morgan building, that is a big clue. Purposely dropping breadcrumbs. Yes, a huge clue. So we do, in fact, have the perfect guest for today's show. We are going to be speaking to a very famous architect, Lord Normand. [5:00] Foster. He is, of course, the founder of Foster and Partners. And we are here with him in Madrid. In his studio and his foundation. Thank you so much for coming on the show. Thank you. So how much of architecture is about dealing with real world constraints? Because I always think there's not just physics and finance, but you're also dealing with things like zoning. And I guess in the UK, you're also dealing with listing requirements and things like that. How much does that constrain you? it's totally rooted in the process of design so you cannot separate design is really a response to constraints and whether those constraints come from the codes whether they come from the requirements for the building because a building is a response to a need it then takes on more layers, yes, it's in the public domain, but it's shaped by constraints, by needs. It's a response. So if you don have those constraints if you don have those demands if you don have to meet certain requirements performance some of those are tangible You can measure them Some are less obvious more subconscious perhaps below the surface But nonetheless, so it's a design is a response to needs. We're in this gorgeous building of yours, and we were just looking over there on the shelf for a series of wood samples. For example, different types of wood from different trees. Cherry wood, plum wood. At the highest levels of architecture to do a great building, how much does the architect really need to know? I guess maybe material science or at least the true nature of specific materials. I think the more that you know about the issues around any assignment, the more you're empowered as a designer. So that has led me over decades to promote a particular way of designing, which is counterintuitive. It's against everything that we're taught in a school of architecture or engineering. And that is you bring all the disciplines together around a table and you work from the outset together Now a critic of that will say that sounds like a committee architecture It's not. I mean, basically, the team is going to be involved in that project. So if the architect designs and then hands it over to the engineer to make it stand up, to make it hot when it's cold outside in the reverse, you lose the opportunity of the feedback. If you get that at the outset, the designers are more empowered and the designers are really a wider team. But that needs a process of re-education because engineers have been taught, show me what you want, I'll make it work. architects have been taught that they should design in isolation it goes further architects are taught about doing a building in isolation a city outside is a street you could argue the street is the essence of the traditional city architects and urbanists are not taught about designing streets so planners are taught in terms of zoning in terms of the legalities Architects have talked about individual buildings So in a way, we have to reassess how we educate. And in our terms, we re-educate, whether it's here in a foundation, preparing civic leaders for the future, enabling them to be able to tell the difference between fashion, prejudice, style, and data and evidence. And the same is true in terms of a building or a city plan. Joe brought up the wood samples. I can't help but notice that the majority of items in this room are related to transportation, so cars and jets and trains as well. I also read... The city. And the city itself. But I also read in an older interview, I think someone asked you your favorite building and you replied a jumbo jet. Do you have an interest in engineering? Should you have been an engineer instead of an architect? I love flight. I love automobiles. And I think that as designers, we get our inspirations from engineers. [10:00] many different directions. I was deliberately being tongue-in-cheek in terms of the jumbo jet. But what I really wanted to do was to get the audience thinking in a different way about a jumbo. Because when you think about it, it's a restaurant, it's a cinema, it's a hotel, and all the while it's moving from one place to the other. and also to start to think about the miracle of flight. I mean, there's still an extraordinary magic that these machines, which are weighing tons, can somehow, by lumbering along the runway, suddenly levitate and then transport us vast distances. And I think there are also a lot of lessons in terms of the built world. In other words, how can we use harness technology to improve the quality of life? I really fascinated by this idea of okay so one might think that an architect is someone who draws lines draws sketches on a piece of paper and then maybe there is an engineering firm and then there a construction firm and then so forth I fascinated by this idea and it rings true with other discussions we have We talk to traders, for example, and there's obviously a difference between thinking in your head on a good trade versus what it actually takes to execute. Literally this morning, I was sitting around a table with a group of us as architects here in the foundation on a project alongside the individual who will be going to build that building. And we're saying, well, the next stage is to do this. We really have to have the environmental engineer. We have to have this structural engineer. And that will be the next meeting. So that was the first meeting. Now we were able to go so far, but only so far. And we recognize the need to have those other skills on board. Now, we could have, and it would have been absolutely traditional, we could have just collectively designed that building and then just passed it on. But there would be so many lost opportunities. Because if you think of a building as an integration of systems I mean if I tried to bring this back to the world of automotive design and I found myself trying to communicate that this principle to a group of automotive engineers not just the engineers but those who are making the cars And the example that I took was a point in time in the 1930s when pretty well all of the cars, any production car, followed a certain pattern. It was a chassis and then a body on top of that, which was a shell, to enclose and protect the occupants from the rain, the elements from nature. And then at one point, a car emerged. It was the Chrysler Airflow. And the body became not just the shell. It became an integral part of the structure. So the car was lighter and the car was immensely stronger. The promotional video of that time, they pushed the car off the top of the mountain. and it kind of rolled and rolled and landed four square Somebody comes out of the bushes demonstrates that the opens the door gets in and drives away The point is then that the two separate systems of the shell and the chassis have merged into one element, which is doing both jobs better. So it's doing more with less. Now, imagine that we're talking about the exterior of a building, heating and cooling it. If you think of integrated design, then you're going to end up, if all those skills are working together, you can really do a system approach to design. you can start to get things doing double duty, performing more, less components, higher performance, more quality and better quality of life. So that principle, whether it's in a city or a building, all of that is to a social end. Thank you. 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Ondaq's small business line of credit gives your business immediate access to funds up to $200,000 right when you need it. Cover seasonal dips, manage payroll, restock inventory, or tackle unexpected expenses without missing a beat. With flexible draws, transparent pricing, and control over repayment, get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at Ondec.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by Ondec or Celtic Bank. Ondec does not lend in North Dakota. All loans and amounts subject to lender approval. How do you think about the social end of buildings when you given a particular project So I know that you often do public buildings and I imagine that you are in dialogue with cities and states around the world when you doing those But when you're given a private assignment, such as a J.P. Morgan building or a Bloomberg office, how do you think about the public good aspect of design? you're thinking simultaneously of how that building works from the inside out and you're also thinking simultaneously from the outside in because arguably they're two completely separate groups of people private inside public outside but the building is in the public domain so if i took the headquarters of Bloomberg, then an early decision was to intersect the building with Wattling Street. Wattling Street was the old Roman road opposite. If you acknowledge that and you continue that and it became an arcade through the building and you had connectivity over that arcade then simultaneously you were breaking down the scale of the building It was then more human And the public spaces bringing in an artist to create water benches that was also double duty, the systems approach, providing security. But it wasn't an ugly bollard. You didn't know it was providing security. It was also bringing people together. Then the arcade is an opportunity to introduce shops and so on. That is working with the Bloomberg philosophy of encouraging the neighborhood to benefit from this private entity coming into the community, rather than it being an island and killing off the traders. It's encouraging local traders. Now, everything I've described then is working to the benefit of the interior of the building. And the facades are starting to be able to breathe and pull lots of fresh air into the building. So it's making the building a healthier building. But it's also on the exterior, not another glass box. It's a combination of bronze and the local stone, local stone. [20:00] the stone of the adjoining buildings. So it's working environmentally in terms of sustainability. It's reducing energy. It's creating a healthier building for the occupants. And then because it's deep and low, it's not pushing into the sky. So it is reverential to the historic buildings around it of a same mass. But at the same time, it's creating horizontality. and horizontality is good for communication and bloomberg is about communication now i could describe another kind of building for a completely different kind of of how can i say client body also in the high-tech business so if i go to beijing if i talk about a building there the company ethos is totally different. It's about competition between groups. So it's the polar opposite. And I could describe that in detail. The point that I making is that as I take you through these decisions the way that they overlap and interact you start to realize that the process of design is about balancing It's about reconciling. It's about creating something which is simultaneously working in the public domain, working for a visitor, working for those inside when they come outside. Well, since you alluded to it, and now I'm particularly curious about it, I imagine that in the decades ahead, there will still be new JP Morgan headquarters, New Bloomberg headquarters, et cetera, but there's probably going to be a lot more mega projects still coming out of Asia or Beijing or China specifically. And so when you describe that environment as different, what should the architects of the future know about working in these markets? First of all, I took the example of the building in China. That same need could be anywhere. It just happened to be in China. So you could have in China exactly the same requirements as a building like J Morgan or Bloomberg although of course no two buildings are alike I mean each is specific to its own organization the values of those organizations, the aspirations of those who've created them, whether they're an individual like Mike Bloomberg in Bloomberg, whether it's Steve Jobs with Apple, or whether it's much more corporate, more anonymous. But nonetheless, there are those values. I would say that common to any building anywhere is how do you anticipate the future? So if I go back to an early building which recently celebrated its half century, and that was the Willis-Faber building in Ipswich, an insurance headquarters. and in the life of that building, that building had a high degree of flexibility and nobody in their wildest dreams anticipated that that flexibility would be used. But in no time at all after it opened, it opened with typewriters and in no time that building and it was the only building in the insurance industry which was as a headquarters able to adapt it adapted to the digital revolution to screens And the same was true of the Hong Kong Bank, which I also recently went to their 40th anniversary, as opposed to Willie's favor and their 50th anniversary. So literally a few weeks ago, I was there at that celebration. and the same thing there that building quite radical at the time and still in many ways radical took the traditional central core of a tower which contained the structure the vertical circulation the bathrooms mechanical plant took all that fragmented it put it at the sides of big open loft things nobody anticipated that in the life of that building the early life there would be something known as a trading floor where you need clear line of sight. That wasn't a need in the late 1970s when the competition for that building, but it was able to absorb that. So I think that the whole thing about the future is that by design you can, [25:00] If I say that you create a building for the needs of today with an awareness of the past, but to as far as you're able to anticipate a future which is largely unknown, but the perhaps in terms of infrastructure, having been backwards and forwards to Asia, and if I say China more specifically, over the last 30 years, I mean, the changes that I've seen, which interestingly, I was communicating earlier this week to the Bloomberg event audience here and sharing that experience with them and showing them the China when I first went there. And it's foggy. It's misty. You can't see the cities now. Unbelievable. I mean, clean air, 90 percent of the vehicles. electric and an extraordinary amount of green. I mean, Shanghai is 50 percent, Beijing 50 percent green That happened over the last few decades And in terms of connectivity just over 54 kilometers of high train 220 miles an hour, 350 kilometers an hour. connecting by this 97% of Chinese cities. On a pig day, 13 million travelers. Achieved in 16 years. And in the UK, they gave up on the London to Manchester. It goes as far as Birmingham, short-termism. They have a department for leveling up. The ultimate leveling up is connectivity. They just didn't get it. And that 54,000 kilometers is more than the rest of the world put together by a huge margin. Why do you think certain countries, and you brought up the UK there, but you could possibly say the same for the US as well. Why do you think certain countries struggle with big infrastructure? Because at every stage in the emergence the emergence of a nation whether that is the United Kingdom in its empire days the industrial revolution it led the world We're still trading right now on that. I mean, the Thames Embankment was a response to cholera. It created, if you like, systems thinking and doing more with less. It also introduced below ground high speed public transport. It cleaned up the Thames. So that period, you had the expression of that civic pride. I started work at the age of 16 in Manchester Town Hall, which was the ultimate statement of civic pride. And it was a competition. And Waterhouse won that competition. That was my first experience of architecture. It took me a little longer to eventually discover that I could study architecture. So I was a late starter at the age of 21. But I can remember vividly right now details of that building I mean that really lifted my spirit So that whether it was the great train stations and of course today it the great airports So if you really want to see the most advanced airports in the world where do you go I mean, it's obvious. We know where you go. There's a mock-up right behind you. There's a huge model immediately behind us here. We're looking at a Beijing airport. Beijing airport was built in five years. Now, at the same time, I drew a parallel with Terminal 5, which I think took 20 years and was a fraction of the size and is really a sort of band-aid on top of Heathrow, which is still embedded in the heart of you overfly metropolis together. So there are a lot of messages perhaps mixed up in these analogies and comparisons. No, it makes sense and I didn't necessarily expect the interview to go in this direction, but I'm actually just going to press you further on this specific point, which is what is your diagnosis of why certain countries do seem to have given up? Was there a moment when you felt it, for example, okay, in the UK? Was there a moment where you felt the ambition is not the same as it once was? It's interesting. I'm… [30:00] I'm working on a project right now, and so I'm with a team of relatively young architects. And so I'm saying, well, in terms of domes, of course, it would be interesting to make a comparison with a particular dome in the Festival of Britain, 1951. and everybody looked at me quizzically and I said, but you've never heard of it because nobody ever heard of it. So I said, well, check it out and the next meeting we'll talk about it. The next meeting, they came back and said, why didn't we know about that? This was 1951. It was the biggest dome in the world. It was demolished for political reasons, interestingly. So they were in awe and the images, I mean, are extraordinary. So 1951 was more or less hard on the heels of World War II. And Britain was in true austerity mode. You still had rationing. So you had a little book And when you went to buy food or clothes then you could only buy depending on the number of coupons like postage stamps that you got left But that period was the first nuclear power station, was the first commercial jet, it was the de Havilland Comet, was, in terms of cars, created the R-Type Bentley, 120 miles an hour, hour on hour. It cost twice two houses at that time, the semi-detached. So this was an extraordinary era. Now, since then, for a whole variety of reasons, many of them political, it's no longer the leading at that level of innovation, manufacturing, and so on. and the factors are quite complex some of them are political and others are social so you do have this cyclical and you can look at the rise and fall of empires and the relationship between the way in which that might be celebrated either through the technology or the architecture of the time And the architecture of the Festival of Britain at that time was absolutely extraordinary And that was the achievement of one administration. But literally, when the next administration came down, for whatever reason, I would surmise that it was seen as a threat. So it was demolished. The only element which is still standing on the South Bank, and you know there is the Festival Hall, of course, but that was part of that creation. I had no idea. Yeah. That's fascinating. Since you brought up rationing, how do budgets work for buildings? If I'm a client of Foster & Partners, one can dream, and I come to you and I say, I want to build a building, do I present you with a particular figure or a range, or do you study my needs and then you come back with a suggested budget? There's no absolute way around this. I mean, it may be that the budget is absolutely fixed. We have that amount of money. How can we optimize? How can we maximize the value Well first of all there is not the relationship that you would expect between quality and how much you spend on a building There are so many buildings I could point to where a fortune has been spent and you just wouldn't want to go near that building. We need the whole list. There are buildings where they're noble buildings and they were built on very, very tight budget. So quality is an attitude of mine. It's not how much you spend. It's how wisely you spend it. So that is philosophical, but it's tangible in terms of the end results. So you may have somebody who says, that's it. This is my this is my resource. And there are three resources. And one is the most valuable. So you have money. You have time because time is also money. The longer you spend on your project, most likely the lower you're actually going to get. because in many ways, when you can do something faster within reasonable limits, [35:00] then you're maximizing. Often if you have a fixed amount of time and you draw that out and draw it out, the money is losing over that bit. But the third resource is creative energy. And that is far and away the most valuable because that's going to determine what you get for your money. So we know what happens with whoever comes along and their pot is fixed. What if they don't know? Then I think you have the importance of simulating or modeling and saying, if you go in this direction, then it's going to cost you that. If you go in this direction, it's going to cost you that. And in many ways, again, if I try and find a simple analogy, if you take a car, the base cost of that car, in many cases, is relatively low. The cost of driving it out of the showroom, depending on the extras that you have either agreed or bought into, is going to change the cost of driving that car out of the showroom. And in many cases that is obviously true of a building So it a part of the creative process to actually define that budget But notwithstanding illusions the reality is that cost is always a factor But the important thing is also, and it's overlooked, it's not just the cost of how much it costs to buy that building, how much does it cost to run? And then over the lifetime of that project, the decision to spend that amount of money on that kind of building or another kind of building. So, for example, how do you put a price on the ability of the Hong Kong bank to be able to introduce that dealer's floor? Or for Willis-Faber, not to have to build another building because they can incorporate the new digital technology. How do you put a price on that? And how do you put a price on a building which significantly improves productivity? because in the longer scheme of things the first cost of a building is a relatively small proportion of the bigger financial picture Whether you planning a big tech event launching a new campaign or just stocking up on team gear finding the right promotional products makes all the difference 4imprint offers thousands of options, from on-trend apparel and premium drinkware to tech, totes, and giveaways, so you can find the right fit for any audience, purpose, or budget. You can customize it all, your logo, your message, your look, and many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point, so you can make a real impact while staying on budget. Plus, you'll get expert help, fast turnaround times, and their 360-degree guarantee. So you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right. Whatever your goal, 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match. Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint 4imprint 4certain The U Virgin Islands invites you to discover the stunning beauty of St Thomas St Croix and St John The U.S. Virgin Islands is truly a magical place, one of a kind, and unlike any other destination. With incredible food, warm hospitality, vibrant culture, and breathtaking beaches, it's everything you could want in a vacation. And the best part? No passport is required when traveling from the U.S. No hassle, just easy travel. Whether it's the world-famous Trunk Bay in St. John that was voted the best beach in the world, the picturesque Megan's Bay Beach, or the stunning Point Udall, America's easternmost point, USVI will take you to a place that no other Caribbean destination can match. For most, the U.S. Virgin Islands is just a quick nonstop flight or a simple connection away. Start planning your getaway to America's Caribbean at visitusvi.com. That's visitusvi.com. USVI, naturally in rhythm. [40:00] pricing and control over repayment get funded quickly and confidently. Apply today at ondeck.com. Funds could be available as soon as tomorrow. Depending on certain loan attributes, your business loan may be issued by OnDeck or Celtic Bank. OnDeck does not lend in North Dakota all loans and amounts subject to lender approval. You mentioned Creative Energy and, of course, one of your famous relatively recent buildings is, of course, the big circular building for Apple. And that's a strange situation, I imagine, because here is a company that is also known for an insane amount of creative energy in more or less the same realm as yourself of visual design, right, etc. Was that a unique experience or distinct experience to work on a building for a company whose main thing is also in large part visual aesthetic and design? No, I don't think it was because I don't think that ever came into it. So Steve had the ability to be able to be on his hands and knees worrying about the detail of a plug and a socket and at the same time be sensitive to the big picture And I think that there are relatively few people that you come in contact who have that appreciation of the importance of scale. Mike Bloomberg, by the way, and I'm not just saying that, is another individual who has, in any conversation, will challenge a tiny detail or like the idea of having a wooden floor. And then all kinds of things follow from that. But obviously is a big picture person, which we know and we take for granted. less or so perhaps Mike's ability to challenge a lifting consultant about the elevators and so on. And I have to say that's fantastic. I mean, the most interesting individuals to work with are those who challenge. There's no question. And the more that you do have that ability to challenge each other in the process then arguably the better the end result You know you mentioned productivity earlier and this is slightly tangential to architecture but I would be very curious to get your thoughts. We've seen productivity gains in virtually every industry on earth in recent decades, except famously the construction industry. In the US, construction has lagged behind in terms of productivity. I'm pretty sure it's a similar story in the UK and perhaps some other countries around the world. Do you have a theory for why that is? Why hasn't construction, I guess, developed as much as a lot of other industries technologically? I think that some societies, and it's interesting, we were talking earlier about Asia, China. There is a book called Breakneck by Dan Wang. He's been on this podcast many times. And as you know, the thesis behind that book is that China hierarchically is run by engineers and they're about doing things. And America is run by lawyers and they don have necessarily the same priorities And I think that that perhaps an extreme example of the fact that some societies the status is associated with the ability to make of craft. Switzerland has that. So in Switzerland, the cabinet maker, those who make, have that standing in society. If I go to the United Kingdom on a building site, it's probably likely to be Polish speaking. Why Polish speaking? Because those craft skills are still alive and well in Poland and they've been exported. And we talked earlier about that time in 1951 when I was 16. And was I 16 in 19? Yes. Now, in the period between now and then... [45:00] You had, and this is not a criticism of one particular party or one individual, but Margaret Thatcher, who did a whole number of positive things, one of the negative things was to dismember the industrial base of the United Kingdom. And not surprisingly, perhaps, then the status of those who make accordingly suffered. So I think that the rather complex answer to your question is that some societies encourage and noble. And I mean, it's interesting. I mean, my daughter is just graduating from Yale in architecture. and one of the great things about the Yale School of Architecture is unlike I think any school that I know, in the first year they make a building. They design a building and then they make it. They actually build it. They actually build it. I mean obviously they have supervision from skilled builders and then it handed over and a family lives in it And they see the success or otherwise of their endeavors which is absolutely fantastic And one of the reasons why, and here, you know that I'm a graduate of Yale, so I'm a Yale alumnus. So I have a certain... But the point that I was going to make was that my daughter called me and said, I just started work on the building. I'm on a building site. And she said, you know what? For the first time, I really appreciate manual workers. I know what it is. And it's that, you know, the making of something. I mean, when you go on a building site, you think, is this ever going to turn into something that can be habitable? It's muddy boots. And part of the practice we were talking about, or indeed anything, whether it's here in the foundation doing a project, whether it's in the practice, it's we push you get on the building site you get the hard hat on you get into the factories you engage with those This is not fashionable This is not necessarily taught Yale School of Architecture, an exception. And there is a nobility in making. And there should be in the same way, you know, that those who protect us, those who keep us healthy, that they should have a much higher standing in society. This sort of leads to my next question, and it kind of relates to, I guess, the sort of cliche, what should young architects or aspiring architects think about? But one dimension that I'm particularly interested in is, okay, you talk about how in the ideal scenario, the engineers, the construction firm, the architects, they're all there from the beginning. That's not a handoff, and that sounds really great, and it seems to be a great result. But you're breaking down silos also. Totally. On the other hand, that model also means that when the client comes with the budget, the architect just gets one slice of it. And so perhaps architects in the US is sort of famous for as professionals on like, say, doctors, lawyers, et cetera. They're not paid as well as others. And maybe it because they sharing the pie with many other entities What should aspiring architects think about to not just have like a satisfied career but also a remunerative career that could sustain themselves No, you're absolutely right. I think that it's rooted in the birth of the profession, which was always an aristocratic element. It was always a kind of gentleman's pursuit. And that may have been appropriate at a point where architecture was a very, very tiny slice of the buildings that society needed. So it was your cathedrals, it was your, maybe your town halls, but the whole, I mean, the hospital was most likely a converted other kind of building. airports didn't exist railway stations didn't exist so the whole building spectrum has grown but in many ways the importance of the architect is an integral part of that and it [50:00] decisive part because design determines so much of the outcome, the cost of a building, the performance of a building, how much it meets the needs of the public at large or everything we've been talking about. That is underappreciated. It's undervalued and it's underpaid. And those of us who are able, We try to do what we can to change that. But you're needing really to bring in the profession at an earlier stage of decision making. I'm sure this question will not be unexpected for you, but what happens to architects in the age of AI? Because you could mount a very clear argument that if we have new technology that's able to do pretty much everything, including potentially modeling and designing buildings to very specific specs and needs, that that will mean that architects are perhaps even less well remunerated than they are now. I could argue an opposite point that if you could do more with less if you had the enhancement of such a tool But if I go back to square one AI is not something that happened yesterday It's been evolving gradually over time, gaining momentum, gaining awareness, in the same way that the whole issue of sustainability. Sustainability was at the core of the practice when it emerged in the 1960s. You could argue the rest of the world has finally caught up with that. But many of the things that we were doing back then were fringe activity. Now they're mainstream. They're in everybody's front page headline. And if artificial intelligence is the accumulation of everything that has gone before, then some of the most interesting things that we've done architecturally have not gone before. So the points that I was making about creating a tower without a central core and taking that central core artificial intelligence is not going to tell you about that It going to tell you everything that it knows about central core buildings It backward looking You have to make a decision. So artificial intelligence is accumulated history. What is history? It's the past. So that is going to make it even more important for those who use all the advantages of artificial intelligence but are not inhibitedly dependent on it. Maybe it's a bit like going into the home of Steve Jobs and finding a rare book on a pedestal. The rare book becomes even more valuable in the digital age. I have one last question. And I have no idea if you like the term or find the term starkitect annoying or not. But when you see a list of them, you're one of them. But there is a generation of them, the people who are called starkitects, and there doesn't seem to be a lot of new names. And I curious if you perceive the next century could there be another person To the extent that anyone ever knows the names of architects it always going to be somewhat narrow but will there be architects who emerge in the next century that everyone knows the name of Or has something changed such that that individual won be a pop culture figure in the same way I'm often invoking buildings from the past for their importance, not just in terms of nostalgia, but for the lessons that we can learn from them. So if I take the solar-powered community of an educational institute like Mazda, which is totally solar-powered in the desert, that was only made possible by applying the lessons from an architecture of the past which didn't have access to instant electrical energy, to power air conditioning. So it was about scaling streets for people and not cars, creating shadow orientation. It was about evaporative cooling, which meant bringing in vegetation. It was about colonnades for shade. It was about layering a building. It was about capturing the cool air. [55:00] at a height above and funneling it through wind towers and so on. Applying all of those lessons and then the technology of our age, so able to demonstrate that we can have the living qualities that we take for granted, but solar powered in a very, very hostile environment. So that is learning from an architecture without architects. obviously those architects were there they didn't have a name it was more anonymous if you fast forward yes names are known i think your star architect really inevitably some architects do the kinds of buildings that um that attract attention but also if i take and you know you're looking at me when you're using that word. Sure. I can't help it. But I would like to take you to a little building in Manchester called Maggie's, which is a cancer research station. I'd like to take you to a small chapel, which is the tiniest building that we done on an island in Venice And each in these different ways particularly the MAGIS or some of the hospital health work that we done is in its impact really really significant But it's not necessarily newsworthy because it doesn't happen to be PACE, the model behind us, the biggest of its kind at that time, or the highest of its kind, or if it's MEO fire duct. So in many ways, what is newsworthy is not necessarily what is the most important of its time. We'll definitely take you up on the tour if that's a real offer. Absolutely. All right. Norman Foster, thank you so much for coming on All Thoughts. Really enjoyed it. Thank you. Joe, that was a fascinating discussion. I feel like I have a new appreciation of architecture. Not that I didn't appreciate buildings before. Maybe I should say I feel inspired to start knocking down walls in my own house. Go for it, Tracy. I think you should. You know I have to say I did not expect that conversation to really veer so much into political economy basically and to discuss the economy or why basically countries like the UK and the US decided to stop attempting to build great things and the connection between the era of building great things and consumer rationing. And of course, China building a lot of great things, also famous for financial repression of various sorts. So I was not expecting to hear that crisp economic idea that we talk about a lot articulated in this particular conversation. By Norman Foster? Yeah. No. You're not expecting to read the Dan Wing book. That's right. Yeah. What a reference. We'll have to tell Dan about that. Yeah. Well, the other thing I was thinking, going back to the interview we did with Allentown Mayor Matt Turk, was this idea of small-scale manufacturing and manufacturing. I don't think he used this specific term dignity at work, but this idea of, you know, making things and then making the job of making things desirable, allowing people to like be close to where they're working and things like that. And you could see some parallels with the construction industry today right Like you want people to feel proud of making things and you want the process of making things to actually be an enjoyable one Everybody wants those glistening like Shenzhen Skylands, but nobody wants to build them. No one wants to allocate those societal resources to be part of the, you know, the construction crew that does that. That seems like the, one of the big challenges of our time. Yeah. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the OddLots podcast. I'm Tracy Allaway. You can follow me at Tracy Allaway. And I'm Jill Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at CarmenArmond, Dashel Bennett at Dashbot, Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more OddLots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash OddLots, where we have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.gg slash OddLots. and if you enjoy all thoughts if you like it when we take the occasional foray into architecture then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform and remember if you are a bloomberg subscriber you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad free all you need to do is find the bloomberg channel on apple podcasts and follow the instructions there thanks for listening [60:00] Thank you. Whatever your goal, trade show giveaways, client gifts, or team gear, 4imprint has the promo products to match. 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