London's Devonshire Pub Leverages Scale to Resist Macro Inflation

伦敦Devonshire酒吧借助规模效应抵御宏观通胀 联合创始人 Oisin Rogers 与 Ashley Palmer-Watts 通过提升客流接待规模并锁定多年期供应商合同，在不将成本激增转嫁给顾客的前提下，将净利润率维持在 15% 至 25% 之间。 本期节目通过对酒吧经营者 Oisin Rogers 和行政总厨 Ashley Palmer-Watts 的访谈，深入探讨了驱动伦敦酒吧业发展的宏观经济现实与微观层面的运营机制。Rogers 概述了酒吧的文化演变，涵盖从历史上与啤酒厂的渊源、室内禁烟令的颠覆性影响，到现代定价模式与员工管理等方方面面。Palmer-Watts 随后详细阐述了倒出一品脱完美健力士（Guinness）所需的精确物理与化学原理，以及支撑一家日均接待 650 人次的高客流酒吧实现规模化运营所需的厨房经济学、食材采购与菜单架构。 英国啤酒与酒吧协会（BBPA）数据显示，2026年第一季度英格兰平均每天约有两家酒吧倒闭；酒吧行业作为宏观经济的缩影，正承受着劳动力、大宗商品成本上涨及代际习惯变迁的综合冲击。 (0:00) 2007年英国实施室内禁烟令成为传统酒吧发展的关键转折点，迫使大量传统纯饮场所向注重餐食的模式转型，并加速了美食酒吧（gastropub）的普及。 (8:45) 为在高成本环境下维持包容与平民属性，伦敦知名酒吧 The Devonshire 采取分层定价策略，从低于5英镑的啤酒到上百英镑的高端牛排，通过高客流量支撑整体运营。 (20:00) 呈现一杯完美的吉尼斯（Guinness）生啤需精准调控约30项操作变量；The Devonshire 在店内自主混合调配高达82%氮气比例的气体，以此优化黑啤的口感与泡沫稳定性。 (45:00)

Amid a wave of UK pub closures, The Devonshire in Soho demonstrates how pairing high-volume publican operations with fine-dining precision and tiered pricing can preserve the pub's traditional egalitarian role while maintaining commercial viability. Macroeconomic Headwinds and Tiered Pricing (20:00) According to the British Beer and Pub Association, approximately two pubs per day closed across England in early 2026. This ongoing decline stems from compounding cost pressures, generational shifts in alcohol consumption, and the emergence of the psychological "£10 pint." Historically, UK pub estates evolved from brewery-tied distribution houses into corporate-managed pub companies, with the 2007 indoor smoking ban triggering an economic shift toward food service and gastropubs. To navigate modern operating frictions—including strict licensing, bin collection, and noise regulations—The Devonshire balances high volume against inflation rather than relying purely on margin expansion. Co-founder Oisin Rogers emphasizes maintaining a "democracy of demographic" through wide-spectrum pricing. Rather than alienating lower-spending patrons, the venue sells an entry-level pint and a scotch egg for £4.95, a £29.95 three-course set menu anchored by skirt steak, and high-end items like a £150 dry-aged Scottish beef cut and £2,500 vintage wine. On wine, the venue applies lower percentage markups to higher-priced bottles and bypasses typical house-wine markups through direct partnerships with Portuguese vineyards, ensuring accessible entry-level quality. The Engineering Behind Draught Beer Quality (45:00) Serving high-quality draught beer at volume requires extensive sensory and mechanical control. While pub folklore claims authentic Guinness cannot be served outside Ireland, all UK Guinness originates from St. James's Gate in Dublin. Chef and co-founder Ashley Palmer-Watts explains that consistency depends on managing dozens of operational variables: kegs must settle undisturbed for two days in transit corridors and subterranean caves before entering a temperature-controlled cellar, flowing through ultra-short lines directly to the taps above to eliminate friction and heat gain. While standard UK pubs use a 75/25 nitrogen-to-carbon dioxide gas ratio (compared to Ireland's traditional 80/20 mix), The Devonshire blends its own gas on-site to an 82% nitrogen ratio. The stout passes through font plates with five microscopic pinholes, pouring to the harp in 13 to 14 seconds before undergoing a mandatory 90-second rest. To further refine draught dynamics, the team collaborates with a food scientist to study nitrogen and CO₂ liquid solubility as keg volumes drop. Culinary Architecture and Volume Operations (55:00) Executing high-end gastronomy across 650 covers daily requires decoupling from volatile seasonal menus. Palmer-Watts designs year-round dishes—such as diver-caught Scottish scallops or lamb cutlets dry-aged for 14 days and brushed with mint-infused lamb fat—to stabilize procurement costs. Kitchen infrastructure includes an in-house aging room for whole-carcass beef and an upstairs wood-fired kiln burning oak and beech at 800°C to 900°C, which quickly sears cuts before secondary stations cook them to temperature. Rather than passing macro inflation onto customers—such as diesel surcharges that added 30 pence wholesale per scallop—the kitchen has adjusted menu prices only once since opening. Cost pressures are absorbed by optimizing internal operations, such as synchronizing baker shift schedules, reducing food waste, and leveraging massive scale (such as ordering 3,000 scallops weekly). Palmer-Watts stresses that long-term supplier trust outweighs aggressive price negotiations, allowing fair cost adjustments in both inflationary and deflationary cycles. Labor Dynamics and Complementary Governance (35:00) Rogers disputes common claims that younger demographics refuse to work or have abandoned pub culture entirely, noting that The Devonshire's most reliable employees are aged 18 to 23. Following Brexit, which reduced casual European Union labor flows, the venue shifted toward domestic British hiring. Operating with 165 employees, the business prioritizes empathetic, low-friction management over traditional, high-stress kitchen hierarchies, using silence and presence rather than shouting to maintain standards. The venue's operational stability relies on a three-way partnership of complementary skill sets: Charlie Carroll (founder of Flat Iron) oversees top-down corporate finance and expansion strategy; Ashley Palmer-Watts directs culinary design, supplier sourcing, and kitchen mechanics; and Oisin Rogers manages the room's atmosphere, customer interaction, and front-of-house operations. According to Rogers, top-tier venues in this category achieve bottom-line margins between 15% and 25%, with high customer density offsetting rising overhead. The Devonshire demonstrates that independent pubs can counter broader industry decline by combining high operational volume, rigorous culinary engineering, and inclusive pricing. However, whether this capital-intensive model can be widely replicated outside central London's high-footfall West End remains an open question for independent publicans facing sustained cost pressures.

在英国传统酒馆面临倒闭潮与成本通胀的背景下，伦敦 Soho 区知名酒馆 The Devonshire 联合创始人 Oisin Rogers 与主厨 Ashley Palmer-Watts 指出，现代独立酒馆的突围之道在于依靠高客流规模效应、兼顾各消费阶层的宽幅分层定价，以及将米其林级的精密烹饪与流体工程注入传统酒馆运营。 行业衰退中的高周转生存法则 (0:00) 英国啤酒与酒馆协会（BBPA）数据显示，2026年第一季度英格兰平均每天有两家酒馆停业，行业面临原材料价格飞涨、劳动力成本上升以及伦敦“10英镑一品脱”心理价格防线被突破的多重困境。Rogers 回顾历史指出，从千年前的家庭自酿客栈到1980年代企业化酒馆公司（Pubcos）的资本整合，酒馆业态历经变迁；二十年前推行的室内禁烟令更带来深远震荡，因重度吸烟的传统酒客流失，迫使酒馆引入餐饮并推动了“美食酒馆”（Gastropub）的兴起。 面对当下的宏观通胀，Rogers 认为独立经营的自由酒馆（Free Houses）虽缺乏大型集团的采购规模，但可通过签署长达三年的长期供货合同平抑成本。Devonshire 放弃了通过提高单品利润率来弥补低销量的传统模式，转而采取薄利多销策略，依托持续高负荷的客流量来平衡微薄的单品毛利。Rogers 披露，当前市场上顶级酒馆的净利润率通常在 15% 到 25% 之间，而充足客流与高效协作是维系盈利水准的关键。 价格分层与去阶层化的社交场域 (20:00) Devonshire 建立了一套跨度极大的分层定价体系，试图打破高端餐厅与平价社区店的阶层壁垒：顾客既能在吧台消费 4.95 英镑的啤酒或苏格兰蛋、享用 29.95 英镑的三道菜固定套餐，也能点选 150 英镑的风干熟成苏格兰牛肉乃至 2,500 英镑的拉菲古堡红酒。在葡萄酒定价策略上，该店打破了餐饮业常用的统一定价倍率与低端“店酒”（House Wine）模式，直接与葡萄牙酒庄合作直采平价高质酒，并随着酒价上升逐步收窄加价百分比，让选购高档酒的顾客获得更好的相对价值。 在空间与声学设计上，Rogers 极力维护酒馆作为“民主化社交场所”的特质。他严禁在店内安装电视转播体育赛事或播放吵闹的背景音乐，转而铺设厚地毯、纹理天花板并设置传统隔间（Snug）以吸收杂音回声，营造既保护私密交谈又充满人声活力的声学环境。此外，他刻意将吧台凳重新引入柜台区域，逆转了此前因规避二手烟而移走吧台凳、导致社交疏离的布局，鼓励各阶层背景的陌生人并肩交流。 健力士黑啤的精密流体工程 (45:00) 针对英国本土“唯有爱尔兰才能打出优质健力士”的普遍迷思，Palmer-Watts 与 Rogers 澄清指出，英国境内销售的健力士原浆同样产自都柏林的 St. James's Gate 酿酒厂，两地杯中品质的差异实质上取决于流体与温度控制中的约 30 个操作细节。Devonshire 为此构建了严谨的多阶段仓储与配送流程：酒桶到店后必须在专用通道内静置两天以缓慢降温，随后移入地下洞穴深度降温，最终进入温控主酒窖并保持绝对静置直至接管出酒。 为了消除长距离输配带来的温差与管道流体摩擦，主吧台直接架设在酒窖上方，采用超短直连管线输酒。在气体动力学方面，英国传统酒馆通常使用 75% 氮气与 25% 二氧化碳的标准预混气（爱尔兰传统配比为 80/20），而 Devonshire 在店内自行调配出 82% 氮气的定制配比。出酒时，酒液经由带有五个微孔的特殊喷嘴在 13 至 14 秒内注入至玻璃杯的竖琴标线处，并执行严格的 90 秒静置分层程序；团队目前仍在与食品科学家合作，深入测试桶内液体减少对气体溶解度变化的物理影响。 米其林级后厨的工业化高负荷运转 (50:00) 曾长期任职于 The Fat Duck 等顶级餐厅的主厨 Palmer-Watts，将高级餐饮的标准化操作移植至日均接待 650 人次用餐的大型酒馆中。为避免频繁更换季节性菜单带来的原料成本剧烈波动，后厨围绕全年稳定供应的原料构建菜谱架构，例如将健力士融入牛面颊布丁，或维持每周 3,000 只苏格兰潜水带子的稳定采购量。面对牛羊肉价格上涨以及燃油附加费（如柴油价格上涨瞬间令单只带子批发成本增加 30 便士）等外部通胀，酒馆依托店内干式熟成室与直连屠宰场平抑成本，以裙肉牛排（Skirt Steak）等高风味平价部位支撑基础套餐，同时提供 100 英镑的优质大块牛肉满足高端消费需求。 在烹饪技艺上，烧烤档口利用 800°C 至 900°C 的橡木与山毛榉燃木特制窑炉迅速对肉品进行高温锁边，再转入辅助温控灶台完成各熟度烤制，大幅节省了高负荷出餐时的炉膛空间。面对严峻通胀，Devonshire 开业以来仅调价一次，主要通过内部效率优化——如调整面包师排班至清晨统一到岗以消除工时浪费——来消化成本压力，并在处理 14 天熟成康沃尔羊排时将剔除的脂肪冷浸薄荷叶制成淋酱，在质朴外表下实现米其林级别的浓郁风味输出。 The Devonshire 的运营案例表明，通过精密工程化流程、深度供应链合作与跨阶层的包容性空间设计，独立酒馆能够在消化宏观成本通胀的同时保持商业盈利。然而，该店依赖日均 650 人的超高客流规模、大体量资本投入以及明星主厨与知名公馆主的个人号召力，这种重资产、高周转的精英化运作模式能否被英国广大面临客流萎缩和资金困境的普通社区酒馆所借鉴，仍是一个悬而未决的行业难题。

## Background 本期节目由彭博社（Bloomberg）旗下的知名播客《Odd Lots》于 2026 年 5 月 25 日发布。节目简介指出，餐饮与酒吧是观察劳动力成本、大宗商品价格及消费信心等宏观经济趋势的绝佳缩影；在英格兰每天约关闭两家酒吧的背景下，主持团队深入伦敦，专访知名酒吧 The Devonshire 的两位联合创始人——掌柜奥辛·罗杰斯（Oisín Rogers）与名厨阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨（Ashley Palmer-Watts），共同探讨英式酒馆文化、通胀下的经营哲学与餐饮工业化背后的精密科学。 ## TL;DR 节目围绕伦敦顶流酒吧 The Devonshire 的创办与运营，全方位解构了英国酒吧（Pub）的社会功能与商业本质。前半段联合创始人奥辛·罗杰斯深入探讨了英国酒吧的产权演变、室内禁烟令引发的客群重塑、声学设计以及将酒吧视为跨阶层民主社交空间的独特哲学，并分享了面对高通胀时如何凭借薄利多销策略破局；后半段名厨阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨则以工业级烹饪与物理学的视角，揭秘了从 82/18 独家气体配比打出完美健力士黑啤，到 800 度柴窑双段式烤肉流水线、冷浸薄荷羊脂等极简却极致的后厨菜品研发逻辑，展现了在供应链重压下克制调价、依靠精细化运营立足的长青之道。 ## Atmosphere & style 整期节目兼具宏观财经的敏锐洞察与烟火气十足的现场沉浸感，录音室深访与伦敦线下活动的欢呼声无缝切换，氛围热烈且极具感染力。主持团队与两位嘉宾的对谈松弛幽默、默契十足，既有针对酒吧物理细节与供应链商业博弈的硬核拆解，又充满对英国传统酒馆文化的深情凝视。听众仿佛置身于弥漫着麦芽焦香与烤肉滋味的喧闹吧台，在严肃的商业逻辑探讨中真切感受到了有温度的人间温情与工匠精神。 ## Bulletin - `00:00` 在英格兰平均每天关闭约两家酒吧的行业寒潮下，伦敦顶级酒吧 The Devonshire 凭借高周转与极致出品突围，日接待量达 650 人次，利润转化率维持在业内顶尖的 15% 至 25%。 - `20:00` 面对物价通胀与“10 英镑一品脱”的行业趋势，The Devonshire 采用大宗采购长期锁价及“滑动态梯消费”策略，既保留 4.95 英镑的平价啤酒与平价套餐，也供应高端熟成牛排与高价红酒，以大客流而非单杯毛利对抗成本压力。 - `45:00` 打好一杯健力士（Guinness）黑啤涉及 30 余项物理变量；The Devonshire 打破英国市场通用的 75/25 预混气常规，自主调配 82% 氮气与 18% 二氧化碳，并配合微孔限流片与严格的多级温控静置流程。 - `54:30` 主厨 Ashley Palmer-Watts 采用工业化解耦动线应对大客流：利用 800 至 900 摄氏度的柴窑瞬间锁边起焦壳，再交由主厨房设备精准控温把控熟度，化解了超大客流与炭火烹饪的物理瓶颈。 ## Key takeaways - `05:00` 英国酒吧（Pub）不同于普通饮酒场所（Bar），其核心在于深植于社区肌理的中立社交属性与跨阶层连接功能，是英国社会的“民主绿洲”。 - `10:00` 英国室内禁烟令对酒吧构成了“经济地震”，虽流失了抽烟老客，却吸引了年轻一代进入并催生了餐饮与酒馆融合的“美食酒吧（Gastropub）”浪潮。 - `12:35` 优秀酒吧依赖视听嗅味触五感营造出的无形氛围，酒吧设计应剔除电视与扬声器背景噪音，依靠地毯、隔板等声学吸音结构创造纯粹的人声环境。 - `22:20` 英国酒吧执照制度极度严苛，原有执照失效后在威斯敏斯特等核心区域极难重新获批，且日常面临繁重的公共安全、噪音与物流合规负担。 - `38:50` 在对抗通胀时，客流量下滑是酒吧倒闭的真正主因；The Devonshire 倒置利润率与客流的关系，通过薄利多销与大宗锁价实现规模效益。 - `40:00` 合伙团队构建讲究跨界互补：由商业宏观战略家（Charlie Carroll）、米其林星级研发主厨（Ashley Palmer-Watts）与前厅运营灵魂（Oisin Rogers）形成稳定闭环。 - `40:00` 全季经典菜单锁定可长年稳定获取的高品质食材，规避了传统餐厅频繁更换应季菜单带来的供应链成本巨震与研发损耗。 - `45:00` 完美打酒是严密的流体力学与热力学工程，包括酒桶多级降温静置 48 小时、管路长度极限压缩至吧台下方，以及出酒嘴 5 个微孔限流片等精细控制。 - `54:30` 后厨大客流出餐的关键在于工艺解耦与量化食谱：用 800-900℃ 柴窑极速锁边，再转入厨房精密控温设备接力完成熟度，杜绝流程缝隙与人为误差。 - `58:45` 供应链管理倡导长期共生与互信，直接对接屠宰场与独立捕捞者，以规模订单换取质量，在原料端合理分担通胀成本而非单方面压价榨取利润。 - `01:05:00` 抵消通胀的主要杠杆在内部精细化运营而非频繁提价，包括重组排班提高人效、减少后厨食材损耗，并维持客流普遍可负担的心理门槛。 - `01:15:00` 高水准酒馆菜肴讲求纯粹与深藏不露的巧思，如利用自炼羊油冷浸萃取薄荷香气薄刷烤羊排，通过真材实料的故事性构筑竞争护城河。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### `00:00` 伦敦酒吧危机与宏观微观切片 在伦敦录制现场，主持团队将镜头对准了英国标志性的酒吧（Pub）生态。餐饮业一直是观察宏观经济最生动、最敏锐的微观缩影：劳动力成本的起伏、食材与大宗原料价格的波动、消费者情绪的变化以及实际购买力，都直观地映射在收银台与吧台前。欧美酒吧文化有着本质不同，美国街头随处可见的所谓“英式酒吧”往往徒具其表，仅仅是借用了暗色木料装潢的普通饮酒场所（Bar），而缺乏深植于本土社会的社区灵魂。 这种文化符号正面临严峻的经济考验。当天清晨 BBC 的头条新闻赫然写着：英格兰每天约有两家酒吧关门停业。追溯起来，这种“酒吧正在消亡”的悲观论调其实在过去二十年间从未间断。然而，导致酒吧倒闭的动因已随着时代发生巨变：如今 Z 世代的饮酒习惯显著改变、酒精消费量持续下滑，而通胀压力更催生了“10 英镑一品脱”（£10 pint）时代的来临。在大学时代还在喝廉价预调酒的人看来，一品脱啤酒卖到 10 英镑在过去足以引发学生骚乱。 - 行业宏观微观交汇点：餐饮服务业集中体现了劳动力成本、食物原料通胀及大众消费者支出意愿的即时变动。 - 关店潮与物价信号：据英国啤酒与酒吧协会（BBPA）相关数据背景，英格兰平均每天关闭约两家酒吧；部分伦敦酒吧的一品脱啤酒价格已正式突破 10 英镑大关。 - 跨文化差异：美国的大多数英式酒吧仅仅是复制外观风格的普通饮酒场所，缺少英国本土独特的社会黏合剂属性。 --- ### `05:00` 什么是真正的 Pub 与英国酒吧百年产权演变 作为伦敦顶流酒吧 The Devonshire 的联合创始人，被誉为英国最著名酒馆掌柜（Publican）之一的奥辛·罗杰斯（Oisín Rogers）对“酒吧（Bar）”与“Pub（Public House）”的本质差异作出了精辟剖析。世界各地都不缺喝酒买醉的场所，但真正的 Pub 深深嵌在不列颠和爱尔兰的社会肌理之中，属于特定岛屿文化的产物。它是一个绝对中立的社交空间，能够跨越阶层，将平时素无交集的人群聚拢在同一屋檐下。罗杰斯形容一个顶级的 Pub 是“混沌、奇迹、美感与艺术的交融之地”，客人们可以卸下防备自在放松，永远不知道下一秒会发生什么惊喜，充满着无数鲜活的故事。 在商业模式与产权形态上，英国酒吧历经了千年的演进与洗牌。最初它起源于普通民居对外开放并自酿自销麦芽酒（Ale），而在 18 至 19 世纪工业革命期间，实力雄厚的地方酿酒商（Brewers）开始大举收购酒吧，将其打造成专属销售渠道，形成了酒厂托管酒吧（Pubco / Tied House）的传统模式。到了 20 世纪中叶，大型酒企往往坐拥数千家酒馆；至 20 世纪 80 年代，酒吧资产更演变成在金融市场上被整宗打包交易的商品。如今市场上除了 Mitchells & Butlers、Stonegate、J D Wetherspoon 等全国性巨头，以及 Fuller's 和 Young's 等伦敦本土老牌运营商外，完全独立、自主选择供应商的“独立酒吧（Free House）”因缺乏规模效益而生存艰难，却始终是行家心中最具魅力与个性的存在。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 英国酒吧产权与运营演变历程 accDescr: 展示从千年前家庭自酿自销到现代多元化产权结构的变迁路线 subgraph Origin["早期形态"] A["千年前家庭开放自酿 (Ale Houses)"] end subgraph BrewerExpansion["18-19世纪：酒厂扩张"] B["区域大型酿酒商 (Brewers)<br/>大量收购酒吧控制销售渠道"] end subgraph ModernEra["20世纪至今：资本与多元模式"] C["酒馆连锁集团 / 托管制 (Pubcos)<br/>如 Stonegate、Wetherspoons、M&B"] D["独立自由酒吧 (Free Houses)<br/>无酒厂捆绑约束，独立采购但规模成本高"] end A --> B B --> C B --> D ``` - 空间社会属性：Pub 是英国与爱尔兰社会特有的“中立绿洲”，强调社区连接、故事发生感与跨阶层社交。 - 资本化兼并历史：20 世纪全盛时期 Allied Breweries 等巨头旗下曾坐拥数千家酒吧，80 年代掀起资产打包与批量并购狂潮。 - 产权分类：主要分为酒厂或大型资产集团控制的连锁托管酒吧（Managed Houses / Tied Houses），以及不依附任何酒厂的独立自由酒吧（Free Houses）。 --- ### `07:16` 从都柏林辍学生到 The Devonshire 的诞生 罗杰斯个人的入行经历颇具戏剧性。1986 年，他考入都柏林的高校攻读化学、物理和应用数学，原本的人生规划是成为一名食品技术工程师。然而在学期间，他走进了都柏林极负盛名的百年老酒馆 The Stag's Head 兼职打工。那份在吧台后招待四方来客的纯粹快乐彻底俘获了他，使他毅然决定放弃大学学业。自 1986 年起，他将整个人生投掷于酒馆事业中，并于 1991 年在伦敦接管了自己的第一家酒吧，此后三十余年间一直在伦敦酒馆行业深耕。 2023 年 11 月，罗杰斯携手名厨阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨（Ashley Palmer-Watts）在伦敦市中心黄金地段皮卡迪利广场（Piccadilly Circus）创办了 The Devonshire。虽然开业仅两年半，但罗杰斯感叹高强度与高人气的运营节奏“漫长得仿佛已经过了二十年”。在伦敦繁华的西区（West End），许多历史悠久的酒吧空间极其逼仄，出品与服务也往往参差不齐。The Devonshire 的野心在于打造一个空间宽敞、让人感到安全舒适且品质顶级的聚合体：一层保留原汁原味、喧闹纯粹的传统英式酒馆，二层则设立极具水准的专业炭烤餐厅。 这种“酒馆加高级美食”的混合形态正是现代酒吧抵抗行业寒潮的关键转折。回顾数十年前的英国，酒吧内几乎完全不提供像样的主食正餐，彼时室内允许吸烟，吧台四周常年笼罩在厚重刺鼻的烟雾之中，客人根本没有在吧台用餐的条件与欲望。直到 90 年代初（约 1991 至 1995 年前后），随着消费意识变化与餐饮场景重塑，“美食酒吧”（Gastropub）的概念才正式萌芽，从简易的站立下酒小食逐步蜕变为精致的正餐服务，彻底颠覆并挽救了酒吧业的商业模式。 - 创始人背景：Oisín Rogers 原本攻读理工科（化学、物理、应用数学），1986 年因在都柏林老店 The Stag's Head 兼职而改变人生轨道，1991 年开始掌管伦敦酒吧。 - The Devonshire 的定位：于 2023 年 11 月开业，坐落于西区皮卡迪利广场核心腹地，采用“底层传统纯正 Pub + 楼上高规格餐厅”的复合式运营模式。 - 餐饮历史演变：禁烟令普及前，酒吧充斥二手烟且几乎不提供餐食；90 年代初美食酒吧概念兴起，将严肃餐饮引入酒馆，从根本上重塑了单店经济模型。 ### `10:00` 美食酒吧的崛起与室内禁烟令带来的“经济地震” 美食酒吧（Gastropub）如今在很大程度上已经演变成实质意义上的餐厅，酒吧与餐厅之间的界限正变得愈发模糊。这种业态之所以能取得巨大成功，在于酒吧本身具备极强的聚客效应：客人们可以在用餐前后在吧台区开怀畅饮，置身于一种极其欢快融洽（convivial）的氛围中。与规矩森严的正规餐厅不同，酒吧的规矩没那么死板，形态更显错落随意（higgledy-piggledy），甚至带有一点点讨喜的混乱感，因而也远比普通餐厅有趣得多。 对于室内禁烟令是否直接催生了美食酒吧，Oisin Rogers 认为禁烟令对英国酒吧业而言无异于一场“经济地震”： - **老客流失与客群重组**：禁烟令颁布之初，大量抽烟的老酒客愤而不再光顾，以“罢饮”抗议，导致酒吧必须寻找全新的客群。 - **环境革新带来的年轻客群**：随着衣服上不再沾染刺鼻的烟味，大批新一代消费者（尤其是年轻人）开始重新涌入酒吧，他们对鸡尾酒、预调酒（如当时的 Bacardi Breezer 和各类 Hooch 果味酒）有着全新的消费期待。 - **不变的核心本质**：尽管时代在变、酒水在变，酒吧生意的本质始终未变——为人们提供一个感到舒适、安全、快乐并被妥善照料的社交场所。 谈及过往流行过的一种糟糕混饮“蛇咬”（Snakebite，即啤酒与苹果酒混合，再加入黑加仑糖浆 Cordial 调成紫色），Oisin 调侃道，原本各自清澈透亮的气泡啤酒和苹果酒混在一起后变得浑浊不堪，只能靠甜腻的黑加仑果汁遮掩才能下咽。所幸这种对健康毫无益处的过时饮料现在已经极少有人会点了。 --- ### `12:35` 感官维度的“坏酒吧”与酒吧光谱的定义 判断一家酒吧的好坏，关键在于客人踏入空间瞬间所接收到的综合感官体验（包括听觉、嗅觉、视觉、味觉与触觉）： - **毁灭氛围的负面输入**：如果服务员一脸苦相、灯光过亮或过暗、背景音乐不搭调、空气中有怪味，或是视觉上充斥着杂乱无章的噪音，那么客人在走向吧台点单之前，拥有美好体验的几率就已经大打折扣。 - **好氛围的营造法则**：优秀的酒吧必须在感官上保持洁净、明朗，更要确保员工处于积极正向的状态，唯有员工自身感到安全、舒适、快乐且薪酬丰厚，才能自然而然地将这种情绪传递给顾客，从而构筑起酒吧不可或缺的“灵魂氛围”（atmosphere）。 面对“如果偏离传统边界，何处才算是酒吧与餐厅的分水岭”这一疑问，Oisin 提出了一个连续的“酒吧光谱”模型，并直言自己极其厌恶“Gastropub”这个词，因为该词现已被过度泛用而彻底丧失了具体含义： ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 酒吧形态光谱 accDescr: 从传统的纯饮酒酒吧到规矩森严的高端正餐餐厅的光谱分布。 subgraph Spectrum["商业业态光谱"] A["纯饮酒吧 (Wet Pub)<br>• 不提供餐食<br>• 无需预约/随意站立<br>• 随心停留畅饮"] B["中间地带 (Gastropub)<br>• 区域兼具预订与混乱感<br>• 跨度极宽/难以统一定义"] C["正规餐厅 (Codified Restaurant)<br>• 严格预约制/方桌就座<br>• 仅限与同桌及侍者交流"] end A <--> B B <--> C ``` 从一家出品精良食物的纯饮酒吧，到完全偏向餐厅定位的美食酒吧，中间涵盖的商业形态跨度极其宽广，各家店在预订比例与自由饮酒氛围之间的配比也截然不同。 --- ### `16:03` 吧台椅的回归与酒吧的“极致民主” 禁烟令出台前夕，英国许多酒吧为了保护员工免受二手烟侵害，曾尝试撤掉吧台周边的所有高脚凳，将顾客与吧台拉开距离，结果却在无形中削弱了人们面对面交流的社交属性。如今在 The Devonshire，他们特意将所有吧台椅重新装回，让人们能像以往一样摩肩接踵、促膝长谈。 在 Oisin 看来，酒吧最迷人、最珍贵的特质在于其**绝对的民主性（democracy）**： - **无阶级壁垒的社交平权**：在酒吧里，只能勉强买得起一杯啤酒的普通蓝领，与财力雄厚到足以买下整座建筑的富豪可以肩并肩坐在一起。 - **生动的阶层交融**：扫街工人、修车技工与公司 CEO、大法官围坐在一处畅谈甚欢，这种平等坦诚的场景在现代社会的其他场所几乎绝无仅有。 --- ### `18:02` The Devonshire 的选址逻辑与商业底气 谈到 The Devonshire 的商业决策与选址逻辑，Oisin 与合伙人 Ashley Palmer-Watts 及 Charlie 经过了长达数年的深入推演： - **无可替代的人流核心**：选址位于伦敦市中心的皮卡迪利广场（Piccadilly）周边，这里拥有全伦敦最密集的人流吞吐量，天然具备广阔的市场基础。 - **多代同堂的包容客群**：正因为坚信酒吧能够打破年龄与阶层隔阂，他们看准了这里能够同时吸引不同背景、不同年龄段的客群。 - **清晰的 USP 打磨**：坐拥绝佳地段仅是前提，更核心的挑战在于反复打磨自身的“独特销售卖点”（USP），打造出一处让挑剔的伦敦人发自内心渴望反复光顾的顶级社交餐饮空间。 ### `20:00` 从5英镑一杯啤酒到几千英镑的红酒：滑动态梯定价与寻找酒吧场地 The Devonshire 在经营上非常坚持给客人提供“物有所值”（value for time and value for money）的感觉。Oisin Rogers 介绍称，店里既能卖出标价 2,500 英镑的 2001 年拉菲古堡红酒（Château Lafite），也能让客人花 4.95 英镑买到一杯平价啤酒。菜单上还提供 29.95 英镑的超值套餐（set menu），或者只要 4.95 英镑的苏格兰炸蛋（scotch egg）；与此同时，如果客人想吃大餐，也能花上 150 英镑享用顶级干式熟成苏格兰牛排。这种“滑动态梯式消费”（sliding scale of spend）正是酒馆的核心灵魂——客人既可以不花大钱享受绝佳氛围，想大肆消费时也能得到满足。 在谈到 The Devonshire 的创立过程时，Rogers 澄清并不是因为先看到了场地才起意，而是他们一直渴望开一家主打高品质餐饮的大型酒吧，但伦敦市中心几乎没有大面积的酒吧物业。现址在 2009 年之前确实叫 The Devonshire，但面积只有现在的不到一半，甚至仅有四分之一。2009 年倒闭后，业主收回房产并将隔壁建筑打通合并，改造成一家大型餐厅——也就是名厨杰米·奥利弗（Jamie Oliver）开设的第一家 Jamie's Italian。Jamie 曾在这里取得巨大成功，但到 2019 年商业规模失控，并在疫情前夕倒闭。Rogers 团队一直紧盯着这个绝佳位置，渴望能说服威斯敏斯特地方议会批准将其改回酒吧执照，这在审批层面是一场艰难的博弈。 - **价格跨度**：从 4.95 英镑一杯的生啤、4.95 英镑的苏格兰蛋，到 29.95 英镑套餐，再到 150 英镑的高级熟成牛排与 2,500 英镑的拉菲红酒。 - **历史渊源**：原址为历史小酒吧，2009 年被并楼扩建成 Jamie Oliver 的首家 Jamie's Italian 旗舰餐厅，2019 年倒闭停业后由 Rogers 团队接手复原。 --- ### `22:20` 英国酒吧监管与发牌制度的沉重负担 主持人询问英国频频见诸报端的“酒吧倒闭潮”是否与过度监管有关。Rogers 解释道，英国的酒馆执照（Pub license）极其特殊：只要持有执照便可以在同一地点经营与转让，但一旦原有执照失效过期，它就彻底消失了。特别是在监管严苛的威斯敏斯特（Westminster），想要重新申请获批一个全新的大型酒馆执照极为罕见。 针对“监管负担”的具体含义，Rogers 阐释称，发牌监管的首要目标是公共安全——防止场内过度拥挤、严格限制营业时段、杜绝向醉酒者售酒以及遏制犯罪。此外，噪音管制（noise ordinances）也是巨大的痛点，酒吧必须维护邻里关系，外围郊区尤其严格。此外还涉及繁琐的物流和卫生规范：包括严格限制货车卸货的时间窗口以减少噪音、垃圾桶（bins）的指定存放地点及收运时间、空酒瓶的处理流程等。虽然这些监管措施本质上是为了社区利益，但层层叠加的合规要求给企业运营带来了极其沉重的包袱。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 英国酒吧执照与合规监管流程 accDescr: 展示申请新执照的难度以及日常经营中面临的各项严格监管规定 subgraph Licensing["执照门槛"] A["历史执照过期失效"] --> B["申请全新酒吧执照<br/>(威斯敏斯特极罕见获批)"] B --> C["成功复牌运营"] end subgraph Compliance["日常运营与合规负担"] C --> D["公共安全监管<br/>(客流上限、营业时间、反酗酒防罪案)"] C --> E["噪音与邻里规定<br/>(邻里投诉管控、夜间声响限制)"] C --> F["物流与环卫限制<br/>(指定送货窗口、酒瓶处理、垃圾清运)"] end ``` --- ### `24:00` 劳动力市场、年轻员工与脱欧冲击 针对酒吧员工的招聘与培训，Rogers 表示他们寻找的是能够自然融入环境的人——具备出色的待人接物技巧、能够取悦顾客让他们开心、且吃苦耐劳认同店里价值观的伙伴。针对社会上常抱怨的“现在的年轻人不愿意工作”，Rogers 坚决予以反驳。他指出店里表现最顶尖的一批员工年龄都在 18 至 23 岁之间，他们极其可靠、勤奋、快乐且高效。许多伦敦高端餐饮同行也观察到了同样现象，证明“这代年轻人完全没问题”（the kids really are all right）。 谈到英国脱欧（Brexit）的影响，Rogers 坦言脱欧带来了不小的震荡： - **欧盟员工流失**：此前大量的意大利、法国、德国、西班牙和希腊籍临时员工中，许多人虽然申请了定居身份（Right to Remain），但欧洲人才的供给水龙头被实质性关闭。 - **本地员工崛起**：目前 Devonshire 许多最优秀的员工都是英国本地人，对此他感到十分自豪。 --- ### `25:20` 10英镑一杯啤酒的迷思与供应链长期锁价 谈到备受争议的“10英镑一杯啤酒”（£10 pint）现象，Rogers 认为物价上涨确实是由生产成本、运输费用和原材料通胀推动的，但酒吧行业历来都弥漫着悲观情绪（doom and gloom），大家每年都在抱怨行情艰难。为了让普通大众喝得起，The Devonshire 始终保留一款低于 5 英镑的啤酒；而店内销量冠军健力士（Guinness）黑啤售价为 7.20 英镑。尽管市面上确有标价 10 英镑一杯啤酒的酒吧，但那种高价场所通常不会是人们真正想去痛快畅饮的社交空间。 在供应链议价与成本控制方面，The Devonshire 和多数行业成熟企业一样，采取大宗采购长期锁价策略：预估消耗体量后向多家供应商公开招标（tender out），确定报价后锁定预算。目前他们与部分核心供应商已经签订了长达三年的固定价格协议，从而彻底锁定了物价波动风险。 --- ### `27:00` 健力士黑啤的“30个变量”与酒吧吧台的剧场舞台艺术 针对坊间传闻“伦敦或美国喝不到好喝的健力士黑啤”，Rogers 从技术层面给出了科学解释：英国所有的 Guinness 原料均由都柏林 St. James's Gate 酿酒厂统一酿造运来，抵店时品质与都柏林本地毫无二致。但从酒桶到客人杯中，决定风味的变量多达 30 余个，稍微有一处偏差就会破坏口感。在筹备 The Devonshire 之前，拥有 40 年卖酒经验的 Rogers 带领团队专门前往都柏林深入酒窖实地考察，记录温度、压力、气体配比、静置时长、管道直径、冷却机温度、流速及水龙头喷嘴参数，最终研发出独家的打酒系统。 | 核心变量类别 | 关键控制参数与技术细节 | |:--- |:--- | | **仓储与环境** | 啤酒桶（keg）本身的储存温度、地窖/储藏室环境温度、换桶后的静置平衡时间 | | **气体与管线** | 氮气与二氧化碳的混合比例、气压设置、输送管路的内径与长度 | | **制冷与流速** | 冷却机（cooler）水温控制、啤酒流经管道与出酒龙头时的流速 | | **设备与器皿** | 专用龙头（tap）与喷嘴（nozzle）型号、酒杯的绝对清洁度（无油脂残留） | 除了物理科学，打酒在英国文化中还承载着深层的心理和社交功能。Rogers 指出，优秀的传统酒吧往往将吧台置于全场视野的核心，吧台就像剧场舞台，酒保就是台上的演员，他们的一举一动构成了充满仪式感的表演。更重要的是，在酒吧里议论一杯健力士黑啤打得好不好（例如泡沫是否恰好一厘米、能不能“Split the G”让酒液喝到大写字母G处正好分层），是英国人最完美的“破冰话题”——这种讨论既日常平淡又充满热情，而且绝对安全，永远不会像政治、宗教或种族话题那样引发争执，成为陌生人之间最绝妙的社交粘合剂。 ### `30:00` 健力士的社交魔力与酒吧的声音设计 关于健力士（Guinness）的争论不仅是一种表演艺术，更是一种安全而美妙的社交纽带。英国人天生热衷于抱怨与调侃，但聊健力士却是一件绝不会踩到雷区、永远不会引发真正冲突的话题——在酒吧里，从来没有人会因为讨论一杯健力士倒得好不好而真正反目成仇。它提供了一个完美的共同话题，让陌生人也能轻松打成一片。 随着年龄增长，人们往往对喧闹嘈杂的环境变得愈发敏感。面对许多震耳欲聋、让人无法开口交流的场所，奥伊辛·罗杰斯（Oisin Rogers）阐述了他对于酒吧声音设计的严苛哲学：传统酒吧内绝不应该悬挂电视播放体育赛事，也完全不需要用扬声器播放背景音乐。在罗杰斯看来，一家好酒吧唯一应该听见的声音，就是酒客们欢快畅谈的嘈杂声、酒杯碰击的叮当声以及人们享受当下的欢笑声。这种纯粹的人声环境反而有一种奇妙的镇静效果。 优秀的酒吧空间在声学上是精心雕琢的，尤其是那些历史悠久的老酒吧。它们通常布满了隔断隔板、私密的小角落，天花板和墙面上贴着带有纹理的厚重壁纸以吸收声波，地面则铺着厚实的旧地毯，让空间呈现出明显的“吸音哑光（dead space）”效果。这种结构避免了声音的过度反射与回荡，确保顾客可以安心进行私密交谈而不用担心被邻桌偷听。相比之下，现代很多酒吧被设计成空旷巨大的一体式方盒子，任何一句话都会在大厅里四处回响，这正是德文郡酒吧（The Devonshire）在空间设计上极力避免的缺陷。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 传统酒吧与现代空盒酒吧的声学环境对比 accDescr: 对比传统吸音隔断设计与现代空旷方盒设计的声学效果 subgraph Traditional["传统酒吧声学设计"] A["厚重纹理壁纸与吸音天花板"] B["厚实羊毛地毯与木质隔断"] C["独立小包间与幽深拐角"] D["声波被有效吸收（Dead Space）"] E["背景人声交织、私密畅聊不被窃听"] A & B & C --> D --> E end subgraph Modern["现代方盒空间缺陷"] F["开阔大通铺结构"] G["光秃墙面与硬质地面"] H["回音严重、声音四处窜荡"] I["交谈费劲、环境刺耳喧闹"] F & G --> H --> I end ``` - **经典代表**：位于伦敦舰队街（Fleet Street）的老牌酒吧切希尔芝士（Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese）正是这种多隔间、充满幽深拐角（nooks and crannies）的声学典范。 --- ### `32:15` 关店潮反思：AI时代下“真实人类狂欢”的黄金期 针对英国酒吧每天关停约两家的残酷现实，罗杰斯从历史变迁的角度给出了诊断。在一个世纪前，酒吧几乎是普通大众消磨全部闲暇时光的唯一场所；而如今，人们的休闲时间被体育赛事、现场音乐会、流媒体电视以及智能手机彻底瓜分。尽管竞争极为激烈，但他坚信顶尖的酒吧依然具备不可替代的生命力，甚至正在迈向一个新的“黄金时代”。 当整个世界都在大谈人类即将全面进入二维的数字化与人工智能空间、整天对着屏幕玩游戏或消费内容时，线下的实际情况却截然相反。人们反而愈发渴望走出家门，沉浸在一个挤满真实人类、充满混乱与鲜活生机的房间里，去享受那种无可替代的共同体体验。这种面对面的真实连结，远比外界整天鼓吹的 AI 要令人兴奋得多。 关于酒吧如何抵制数字干扰，塞缪尔·史密斯（Samuel Smith）连锁酒吧被视为一个极具个性的代表案例。这家由汉弗莱·史密斯（Humphrey Smith）掌舵的企业像极了现实版的“威利·旺卡巧克力工厂”： - **严禁手机**：旗下酒吧严格禁止顾客在店内使用手机、平板等电子设备，以强行维系纯粹的面对面社交。 - **高度闭环**：这是一家极度封闭但自成体系的独立公司，至今依然坚持自酿所有啤酒、生产自己的伏特加，甚至自己灌装葡萄酒。 --- ### `34:20` 年轻人戒酒与降糖药风潮下的真实消费图景 针对当下媒体盛传的“年轻人不再饮酒”以及 GLP-1 类降糖减重药物（如 Ozempic）抑制饮酒欲望的趋势，罗杰斯直言这种说法被严重夸大了。在酒吧的实际运营中，成群结队的 18 至 25 岁年轻人依然像几十年前一样蜂拥而入，大口喝着啤酒、尽情狂欢。 虽然新一代消费者在整体摄入量上可能略有节制、更加注重身体健康，但这绝不意味着他们放弃了社交饮酒。罗杰斯警告经营者，如果在创业之初就抱定“年轻人不喝酒，所以我不用照顾他们”的心态，那年轻人自然永远不会踏入店门。酒吧从业者必须为年轻群体提供舒适、安全的环境，让酒吧继续作为社区生活和年轻人社交的中心。 --- ### `35:10` 经营者的修行：像指挥交响乐团一样管理酒吧 经营酒吧最艰难的部分，莫过于在一开始下定决心迈出这一步。因为一家成功的酒吧是一项全天候的终身天职，绝非一份可以随时抽身的兼职工作。罗杰斯自己的作息极其严苛： - **无休投入**：每周工作六到七天，永远处于开机状态，每天至少在店内巡视数小时，常常一待就是整整一天。 - **人员规模**：德文郡酒吧拥有 165 名庞大的员工团队，他的核心工作之一就是确保每位员工状态良好。 在日常巡视中，罗杰斯对细节有着近乎偏执的追求：时刻排查店内的“视觉噪音”，紧盯油漆涂装与饰面细节，确保所有物品摆放精准到位、环境纤尘不染。但这种管理并非靠在厨房或大堂对人大喊大叫。随着职业生涯的成熟，他将自己的角色比作“交响乐团的指挥家”： - 摒弃餐饮业昔日常见的吼叫与霸凌文化，通过赋能员工创造安全、舒心的工作氛围； - 善于在现场“抓到员工做正确事情的瞬间”，鼓励团队超越标准发挥潜能； - 坚信只有当 165 名员工真正感到被支持、被尊重并发自内心感到快乐时，整个酒吧业务的飞轮才会全速运转。 针对缺乏培训直接上岗的餐饮乱象，播客主持人特雷西（Tracy Alloway）分享了丈夫早年在英国廉价连锁酒吧巨头威瑟斯彭（Wetherspoons）打工的惨痛经历：在完全零培训的情况下被直接推上吧台，不仅把昂贵的顶柜高端金酒当成廉价散酒倒给客人，还曾误将海鲜酱与烧烤酱混淆。罗杰斯对此深表同情，并强调员工出错从来不是其个人问题，完全是缺乏正确培训所致。 --- ### `38:50` 高通胀环境下的薄利多销之道与合伙人选择 面对 2021 至 2022 年以来原材料、能源与人工成本的全面飞涨，今日经营酒吧的逻辑与 1990 年代或 2010 年代中期相比发生了翻天覆地的变化。许多酒吧为了维持利润率不断提价，但罗杰斯指出，客流量（footfall）的大幅下滑才是压垮酒吧的真正致命杀手。 德文郡酒吧的抗通胀核心逻辑在于**彻底倒置利润率与客流的关系，全力押注走量（volume）**： - **薄利多销策略**：坚持提供售价低于 5 英镑的平价啤酒，不过度纠结单杯利润率的微小压缩； - **规模填补成本**：当酒吧每天能够售出成百上千品脱啤酒、整个空间持续处于爆满状态时，极高的周转量自然能够抵消高昂的原材料成本。 当被问及寻找商业合作伙伴（包括时间节奏、利润期望和投资回报周期的对齐）的秘诀时，罗杰斯给出了一条至关重要的忠告：千万不要和那些……（对话在探讨合伙人品格的关键标准处暂停）。 ### `40:00` 德文郡酒吧的“黄金铁三角”与酒吧的利润率真相 在挑选创业合伙人时，许多人容易陷入寻找与自己能力重合者的误区，但欧辛·罗杰斯（Oisin Rogers）坚信，最强大的团队必须由技能截然不同的人组成。在德文郡酒吧（The Devonshire），他和查理·卡罗尔（Charlie Carroll）、阿什利·帕尔默-瓦茨（Ashley Palmer-Watts）构成了近乎完美的互补结构。查理是极具商业敏锐度的宏观战略家，曾白手起家创办了极其成功的牛排连锁品牌 Flat Iron，擅长自上而下的商业推演，在财务会议中游刃有余；阿什利则在世界顶级名厨麾下深耕二十年，职业生涯斩获五颗米其林星，拥有无人能及的食材采购直觉与味蕾敏锐度。正是阿什利精准敲定了可以常年供应而不必随季节频繁更替的经典菜单，彻底摆脱了传统餐厅因应季调整带来的供应链成本巨震。至于欧辛自己，则是掌控全场的前厅灵魂，负责在吧台前接待八方来客、调度日常运营。三人如同一个高强度运转的三角形，三个支点各自独立又紧密咬合。 当被主持人问及像德文郡这样高朋满座的顶级酒吧实际利润率如何时，欧辛展现出了谨慎而自信的态度。作为一家非公开上市的独立企业，他虽然不便透露具体底牌，但明确表示酒吧的盈利表现与行业最高水平齐平甚至略胜一筹。在当下的英国餐饮环境下，一家运营优异的酒吧通常能实现15%至25%的利润转化率（conversion rate）。在依依不舍告别第一段专访时，长期收听《Odd Lots》的欧辛笑称能与两位主持人面对面录制节目是莫大的享受。随后，录音棚对话切换到了此前在伦敦举办的现场特别节目，名厨阿什利·帕尔默-瓦茨登台，开始揭秘德文郡后厨与吧台背后更精密的商业与烹饪科学。 - **三位一体的合伙人分工**：Charlie Carroll（商业与财务大局观、Flat Iron 创始人）、Ashley Palmer-Watts（米其林五星履历、食材研发与全季菜单控制）、Oisin Rogers（前厅运营与酒馆文化灵魂）。 - **非应季菜单的经济学逻辑**：通过锁定一年四季均可稳定获取的优质食材，规避了频繁变换菜单带来的研发损耗与原料价格波动。 - **顶级酒吧的财务表现**：业内顶尖酒馆的利润转化率在 15% 到 25% 之间，德文郡酒吧处于该区间的高位。 --- ### `45:00` 完美健力士黑啤的物理学：从地下酒窖到独家气配比 在伦敦现场活动中，话题迅速切入所有啤酒客最为痴迷的核心谜题：如何才能打出一杯无可挑剔的完美健力士黑啤（Guinness）？阿什利透露，在酒吧开业前，他就曾向欧辛请教打破那些坊间迷思的科学真相。倒出一杯神级黑啤绝非简单的玄学，而是一套极其严苛、涉及流体力学与热力学的精密工程。这套流程从桶装啤酒进店的那一刻便已启动：由于德文郡酒吧销量巨大而空间局促，新运到的酒桶几乎塞满了每个走廊拐角；它们必须先在走廊中自然静置、缓慢降温，随后移入街道下方由历史遗留洞穴改建的冷藏区进一步冷却，最后在到达约两天后转入核心酒窖，并在那里彻底保持静止，直至被接入酒管打出。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 健力士黑啤温控与打酒精密处理流 accDescr: 展示从酒桶进店、多级降温静置、管道设计到最终倒酒出杯的完整物理控制流程 subgraph Cooling ["多阶段降温与静置"] A["啤酒桶送达走廊<br/>初级自然降温"] --> B["街底地下冷藏洞穴<br/>二级降温"] B --> C["核心低温酒窖<br/>静置稳定48小时"] end subgraph Piping ["流体输送控制"] C --> D["极短管道直接上行<br/>紧贴吧台正下方"] D --> E["精确管径匹配<br/>维持流速稳定"] end subgraph Pouring ["出酒与物理成型"] E --> F["82/18 定制氮碳气压驱动"] F --> G["出酒嘴 5 个微孔限流片"] G --> H["13-14秒注入至琴徽<br/>静置分层 90 秒后封顶"] end ``` 为确保风味不被外界温度侵扰，酒吧将酒窖精准布置在吧台的正下方，使得连接酒桶与酒龙头的管道缩短至物理极限，并根据黑啤黏度定制了专用口径的管道。紧接着是气压与时间的严密控制：气压被设定为恰好能在13至14秒内将酒液注入至玻璃杯竖琴标志的高度，随后在酒架上严格静置沉淀90秒。更为核心的商业机密在于气体配比——爱尔兰本土的标准是80%氮气与20%二氧化碳，而英国行业惯例大多被强制推销75/25的预混气；德文郡则选择在店内独立混合，调配出独家的“黄金比例”：82%氮气对18%二氧化碳。再加上酒龙头内部配备带有5个微型针孔的限流片（restrictor plate），最终在气压、气配、温度与时间的四维共振下，激发出如同天鹅绒般丝滑绵密的泡沫质感。 - **阶梯式降温静置**：新到酒桶先在走廊初降温，再进入街道下方冷藏洞穴，最后进酒窖静置约48小时，未达温控标准绝不上枪。 - **最短流体路径**：酒窖直连吧台正下方，将酒管长度压至物理极限，杜绝管路温差对啤酒造成破坏。 - **出酒时间基准**：第一阶段注酒耗时精准控制在 13 至 14 秒（注至杯身竖琴标高），随后必须经历标准的 90 秒静置分层。 - **破译气体密码**：打破英国市场通用的 75% 氮气 / 25% 二氧化碳预混常规，自主调配 82% 氮气 / 18% 二氧化碳的独家配方。 - **出酒嘴微孔板**：精选带有 5 个微小针孔的金属垫片，直接决定酒液泡沫的细腻纹理与触感。 --- ### `47:15` 英国酒馆的文化图腾与未竟的“气体溶解度”实验 当主持人以美国消费习惯做对比——美国人往往从冰桶里随手抄起一瓶百威清啤（Bud Light）就能心满意足，很难理解英国人为何对“倒好一杯啤酒”抱有如此近乎宗教般的执念——阿什利给出了饱含文化认同的解释。他认为，酒馆是英国文化最不可分割的基石，它是真正超越阶级的全民公共场域。无论身份显赫还是囊中羞涩，无论正处于人生得意、悲伤失落，或是只想找个角落与自己的思绪独处，酒馆一律平等接纳。这种对一杯完美生啤的挑剔，本质上是人们对这个共享社交空间与生活仪式感的敬重。正如阿什利调侃的那样，酒精本身自带一种微妙的张力——“毕竟一个人在倒下之前能喝的量就那么多”，因此每一杯的纯正风味都必须值得被认真对待。 即便是外界看来已经登峰造极的健力士打酒方案，阿什利却坦言这套优化体系“远未完成”。为了进一步追求极致的稳定性，德文郡团队目前正与一位精通物理特性的美国食品科学家深入合作，专项攻克高压气体在液体中的溶解度（solubility）问题。在酒吧运营的实际场景中，若在打烊后保持酒管与酒桶处于持续增压状态，残留在系统中的氮气和二氧化碳会在漫长的通宵静置中过量溶解进麦芽酒液中，导致次日清晨打出的第一批啤酒气泡过度翻涌、泡沫粗糙失控。为此，团队摸索出每晚营业结束后彻底关闭所有酒桶气阀的苛刻操作规程。从宏观的英国平民文化寄托，到底层分子层面的气体溶解动力学，德文郡对细节的病态专注，恰恰构成了它难以被复制的护城河。 ### `50:00` 啤酒桶中的气体物理学与菜品研发初衷 Ashley Palmer-Watts 与 Oisin Rogers 一直在探讨健力士（Guinness）生啤的物理特性。随着酒桶（keg）内的啤酒液面逐渐下降，桶内相对的气体饱和度与气体在酒体中的溶解度会出现滑动比例的变化。这涉及到极其复杂且微妙的物理与化学平衡，他们甚至专门约了专家在 6 月再次深入研究。Ashley 坦言这种深度科学机制可能略超他的理解范畴，但经营一家顶级餐厅的精髓就在于绝不轻易妥协：“我们永远不会满足于觉得‘就这样吧，已经搞定了’（we're never happy just going, you know what, that's finished）。”面对主持人打趣说这意味着研发过程中可以进行大量的试饮测试，Ashley 笑称这确实是工作中不可多得的美事。 作为曾经掌舵赫斯顿·布卢门撒尔（Heston Blumenthal）旗下传奇米其林三星餐厅肥鸭（The Fat Duck）的名厨，Ashley 聊到了接手 The Devonshire 菜单设计时的底层思考。最初，Oisin 和 Charlie 只是想向他讨要一个曾经在布雷村（Bray）餐厅做过的经典菜品食谱。Ashley 爽快答应后反问：“为什么我们不打造真正能成为这家酒吧代名词的东西呢？”在设计初期，单品经济效益（unit economics）固然举足轻重，但他更看重顾客踏进大门后的感知与体验：客人是来体验什么的？会产生怎样的情绪？ 在长达数小时关于健力士黑啤特性的讨论后，他们决定将健力士融入牛面颊板油布丁（beef cheek and suet pudding）中，并在酱汁收尾时加入黑啤，这道菜迅速成为 The Devonshire 的标志性招牌。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: The Devonshire 菜品设计与规模化落地流程 accDescr: 展示从最初的酒吧身份定位到多日闭门研讨，再到工业化厨房标准落地的闭环逻辑。 subgraph Ideation ["理念与风味构建"] A["锚定酒吧核心认知<br/>（如融入健力士的牛肉布丁）"] --> B["三日 Soho 闭门风味讨论<br/>（平衡合伙人品味偏好）"] end subgraph Standardization ["标准化与控差"] B --> C["注入 25-30 年烹饪经验<br/>（剔除含糊假设，建立清晰步骤）"] C --> D["大容量出餐工艺拆解<br/>（每日 650 份出餐标准）"] end subgraph Execution ["双段式烹饪执行"] D --> E["柴窑超高温炙烤<br/>（800-900℃ 封边起焦壳）"] E --> F["主厨房精准控温<br/>（分级接力掌控熟度）"] end ``` ### `52:15` Soho 公寓的三日研讨与大客流工业化出餐 The Devonshire 最终于 2023 年 11 月正式开业。两人的合作始于 2022 年 11 月的接洽，到了 2023 年 1 月，他们聚集在 Oisin 位于 Soho 的公寓里，整整闭门三天三夜只聊食物。Ashley 戏称自己当时就像在协调一对夫妻的育儿意见，将两位合伙人各自钟情与排斥的元素融合提炼。例如，他们想做一道扇贝菜肴，打算从苏格兰的一位潜水员手中采购活扇贝，考虑自制培根，并思考如何融入麦芽醋。 然而，优秀的食谱只是一半，核心考验在于能否进行大批量稳定复制。The Devonshire 的餐厅单日出餐量高达 650 份（covers）。为 50 个人做菜是一回事，要在极致客流下保持水准则是完全不同的工业级挑战。Ashley 强调，减少差错才能换来高度一致的品质。必须把所有可量化的控制机制写进食谱，步骤极其拆解细分，“没有任何信息是愚蠢显浅的，你绝不能预先假设厨师知道某些你压根没交代清楚的常识”。 - **开业与筹备时间线**：2022 年 11 月初次洽谈，2023 年 1 月在 Soho 进行为期 3 天的菜单研讨，2023 年 11 月正式开门迎客。 - **出餐规模**：餐厅单日接待量高达 650 人次。 - **品控逻辑**：建立傻瓜式、步进式的量化食谱，通过彻底消除流程缝隙和人为错误来保证大规模出餐的品质一致性。 ### `54:30` 800度木柴窑炉与排房工作流的分工艺术 面对主持人对牛排馆高周转出餐的疑惑，Ashley 详细解构了他们地库与烤肉间（grill room）的接力流水线。The Devonshire 地下室拥有一间比演讲舞台还要巨大的独立牛肉熟化室。餐厅的烤肉间内设置了一台巨大的窑炉，主要燃烧橡木和山毛榉，炉温高达 800 至 900 摄氏度。厨师将木材烧透后砸落成炭火余烬，再转移到不同高度的炭床上，利用温差梯级进行烹制。 常规的烹饪方法是在炭火上慢火细烤直至牛肉达到所需熟度，但这需要漫长的热量传导过程。如果要应对数百位客人的点单，烤架面积必须扩大 5 倍才能勉强运转。为此，Ashley 重新梳理了烹饪动线： 1. **初段锁水爆香**：在超高温炭火余烬上极速快烤，瞬间形成浓郁的美拉德焦壳（sear and crust）。 2. **后段熟度接力**：完成锁边的牛肉立即移交给厨房主线厨师，由他们在室内精准控温设备中精确把控一分熟（rare）、三分熟（medium rare）、五分熟（medium）至七分熟（medium well）。 这种“外层焦壳炭烤、内部熟度厨房精控”的双段解耦流程，完美化解了超大客流与炭火出品之间的物理瓶颈。 ### `56:10` 牛肉通胀、入门级定价与菜单架构设计 面对近年居高不下的通胀挑战，牛肉成本不断攀升且“价格从来不会降回去”。由于主打牛肉专门店，他们凭借庞大的采购量直接跳过中间商，直接与屠宰场（abattoir）对接，并依托合伙人 Charlie 积累的深厚农牧业供应链资源来平抑采购波动。 为了让餐厅维持传统酒吧的社区包容性，菜单在价格结构上设置了宽幅的梯度。他们选用横膈膜牛排（skirt steak）打造极具亲和力的三道菜套餐（包含经典大虾色拉、牛排配薯条、太妃糖布丁）。这确保了任何人都能毫无负担地走进 The Devonshire 饱餐一顿；而对于高端消费客群，菜单上同样备有售价高达 100 英镑的厚切牛排（beef chop），形成了高低兼备的价格纵深。 ### `57:30` 葡萄酒定价迷思与自制 Devonshire 厂牌酒 主持人询问起业内广为流传的“千万别点酒单上倒数第二便宜的葡萄酒（因为那款往往利润率最高、专坑冤大头）”这一说法。Ashley 对此给出了坦诚的回应，并分享了 The Devonshire 的反向酒水定价逻辑。 他们并没有提供市面上常见的那种“品质低劣因而无人问津的廉价店酒（house wine）”，而是通过 Oisin 结识的一位葡萄牙酿酒师朋友，专门为酒吧独家定制了一款“Devonshire 葡萄酒”。这款酒品质远高于普通的入门佐餐酒，但他们将其定价牢牢压在最低档位区间，绝不让选择入门款的客人感到被盘剥。更重要的是，在酒单的高端区间，他们刻意压低了毛利率，不搞全盘翻倍加价，以此鼓励和奖励客人尝试更高品质的好酒：“你必须表现得精明诚实，鼓励客人们去喝得更好（encourage people to drink better）。” ### `58:45` 供应链谈判与每周三千颗扇贝的长期博弈 在食材供应方面，The Devonshire 庞大的走量常常让供应商感到难以置信。当采购团队询问生鲜供应商能否承接每周 3,000 颗活捞扇贝的稳定供应时，供应商往往以为这只是为了压低单价（例如砍下 10 便士）而虚报的数字。直到成千上万颗的订单每周准时下达，供应商才意识到其惊人的消耗能力。 Ashley 明确阐述了他的供应链伦理：餐厅的核心诉求是“以合理公平的价格换取最高标准的品质”。如果餐馆一味压价榨取供应商的利润空间，就不可能与打捞者和农场主建立起互信共生的长久合作。近期受燃油价格上涨冲击，供应商提出每颗扇贝成本需要追加 30 便士。Ashley 团队选择正面理解并承担成本，同时期待通胀缓解后供应商也会如实回调。在投机巧取遍地的餐饮行业，他们始终选择用长期主义与供应链建立深度连接。 ### `01:02:40` 厨房危机应对与热播美剧《熊家餐馆》的真实度 主持人抛出话题：热播剧《熊家餐馆》（*The Bear*）让人感觉每家餐厅永远处在下一秒就要彻底陷入混乱、甚至走向破产崩盘的边缘。面对突发的运营意外——比如供应商送货失误、或者预订的一批菠菜送达时已经完全蔫掉无法使用——主厨究竟如何应对？ Ashley Palmer-Watts 坦言，餐厅大部分日常突发状况通常交给现场团队自行处理。但当他自己、合伙人 Oisin Rogers（Osh）或 Charlie 亲自介入时，事情就已经相当严重了。厨房内部有一个名为“Top Dogs”的高级主厨沟通群，他始终在密切留意消息流向；失误不可避免，关键在于如何纠偏并杜绝重演。如果必须由他亲自给海鲜供应商打电话，那绝对是一场极为严肃的交涉，但他从不对着电话大吼大骂，而是去探究问题根源：“发生了什么？事情往往有两面性。” 聊到《熊家餐馆》本身，Ashley 透露自己甚至没看到第二集之后。这并非因为剧情刺痛了现实神经，而是如同金融交易员看华尔街题材电影、F1 赛车手看赛车电影一样，影视剧为了戏剧冲突和收视率必然充斥着夸张与煽情，不可能百分之百还原现实。即便如此，餐饮业和酒吧业的艰难与挑战是毋庸置疑的。被问到自己是否也像剧里那样在后厨大喊大叫时，Ashley 明确表示自己从不咆哮。在他看来，深思熟虑的沉默与威严远比咆哮更有震慑力，但他更倾向于采用鼓励的方式，打消年轻厨师面对名厨时莫名产生的恐惧感，让团队在快乐中把工作做到极致。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 厨房异常事件升级机制 accDescr: 展示从日常运营由团队自主处理，到重大或重复问题升级至管理层介入的流程。 subgraph L1["现场一线管理"] A["日常突发问题\n（单次原料瑕疵/供应延误）"] --> B["一线团队自主消化与纠偏"] end subgraph L2["管理层监控"] B -.-> C["'Top Dogs' 高级主厨群实时监控"] end subgraph L3["高层介入机制"] C -->|问题重复发生 / 严重失误| D{"合伙人/主厨介入\n(Ashley / Osh / Charlie)"} D --> E["严肃供应商通话：探究原委而非宣泄"] D --> F["优化流程，防止同类问题再次发生"] end ``` --- ### `01:05:00` 定价权困局：通胀压力下的非价格杠杆 面对英格兰银行（Bank of England）等宏观机构关心的零售餐饮端通胀定价权问题——即当原料供应链全面涨价时，餐厅何时以及如何决定上调菜单价格？Ashley 指出，The Devonshire 并不像大型连锁集团那样完全被财务会计部门牵着鼻子走，他们的核心宗旨是让顾客享受到最好的时光。自开业以来，全店仅对极少数单品做过一次微调。 他们拒绝按照通胀率机械化转嫁成本，很多品类的售价至今分文未动。即使是将一道配菜的价格上调 50 便士（约 10%），拉长到两年半的维度来看也是微不足道的，而且这一年大概率不会再动。Ashley 强调，抵消通胀和成本上涨的核心手段根本不在于提高菜单标价，而在于内部管理与精细运营的重塑： - **更聪明的采购与生产**：审查采购流程，提升出品效率，尽可能降低食材损耗。 - **重构劳动力排班**：通过精细化微调提升生产力。例如在制作面包等工序上，将原先 5 点来一人、7 点来一人的排班，调整为 6 点两人同时到岗协同，不仅大幅缩短工时，产出效率也显著提高。 - **恪守平价与包容理念**：始终在“自身心理感到心安理得”的区间内定价，绝不希望餐厅被冠上“昂贵”或“排他”的标签，确保各阶层顾客都能踏入店内。 --- ### `01:06:50` 美食酒吧浪潮与社区酒吧的本地属性 谈及英国“美食酒吧”（Gastropub）的兴起与酒吧两极分化现象——纯饮型酒吧（Wet-led pubs，不供应正餐，只卖薯片类零食）大量倒闭，而转型餐饮的酒吧似乎蒸蒸日上。Ashley 表达了审慎的看法：纯饮酒吧同样有其市场生命力，像他们在 Soho 的常去酒吧就非常传统且终日客满。 真正的危机在于餐饮集团内部的“财务导向”。当集团采购部门剥夺了主厨的自主权，强制要求从中央厨房调拨半成品时，真正的烹饪灵魂便荡然无存。大型连锁集团受制于董事会汇报和投资回报率压力，最容易滑向“压缩食材品质、削减人力成本、同时抬高菜单价格”的恶性恶性循环，主厨根本无力反抗。而 The Devonshire 摆脱了这种资本模式的桎梏，专注为顾客提供合理价格与极致体验，这也正是当天午餐和晚餐能合计接待高达 650 位客人的原因。 当主持人问及此类城市核心区大体量名店与传统“熟客型”社区酒吧（Local pub）的定位差异时，Ashley 坦言 The Devonshire 的实际表现打破了他最初的预设：原以为地处繁华喧嚣的伦敦市中心，顾客大多是一生只来一次的游客或打卡者，但令人惊喜的是，店内如今聚集了大量常客——不仅包括核心社交圈内的挚友，更有源源不断将这里当成自家据点的忠实本地居民。 - **日均客流规模**：The Devonshire 当日午市与晚市合计服务客流量达 650 人次。 - **调价克制**：两年半内绝大多数核心单品未涨价，仅对极个别配菜做过一次约 50 便士的轻微调整。 ### `01:10:00` 常客的定义、抢座秘诀与为乔尼·艾夫特制的“肉之果” 在讨论谁才算酒馆的“常客”（local）时，阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨（Ashley Palmer-Watts）分享了一个独特的视角：常客不仅限于住在拐角处的人，也包括那些来自全英国、欧洲甚至澳大利亚的顾客。这些人哪怕每年只能来一到两次，但只要他们一踏上伦敦的土地，第一站就直奔 The Devonshire，那他们就是酒馆的常客。这种跨越地域的纽带，源于一群有趣而多元的人在这里寻找短暂的“逃离现实之所”（escapism）。 针对外界最好奇的“到底怎样才能订到 The Devonshire 的座位”，阿什利详细透露了订座机制与“现场捡漏”的规则： - **线上放号**：酒馆会在每周四上午 10:30 准时在线放号，一次性放出三周后的整周预订。竞争极其激烈，顾客必须手疾眼快、提前准备好信用卡。 - **Walk-in（无预订到店）名额**：如果抢不到线上号，酒馆每天其实留有约 100 个现场散客名额。只要顾客保持耐心、对前台团队有礼貌、乐意在吧台喝一杯等上 10 到 15 分钟，酒馆会竭尽全力安排入座。“我们讨厌拒绝客人”，阿什利表示，那些比别人多一点坚持的人总能如愿入座。 访谈中，主持人转达了联合创始人奥伊辛（Oisin Rogers）抛来的“爆料”——当年阿什利在肥鸭餐厅（The Fat Duck）工作时为苹果公司设计大师乔尼·艾夫（Jony Ive）准备特制礼物的幕后趣事。当时阿什利在布雷（Bray）的研发办公室办公，突然接到乔尼·艾夫私人助理的电话，称乔尼刚结束在英国的休假，正准备乘坐私人飞机返程，希望能从阿什利主理的伦敦米其林餐厅 Dinner by Heston Blumenthal 及 The Hind's Head 打包一些餐食带到飞机上享用。 Dinner by Heston 有一道名闻遐迩的历史名菜“肉之果”（Meat Fruit，灵感源自 16 世纪及维多利亚时期将肉类或鱼类伪装成果类的烹饪传统）。那道经典菜肴是将细腻顺滑的鸭肝酱包裹在栩栩如生的柑橘果冻中，表皮不仅有果皮的微小凹陷，甚至还带有真实的果蒂叶子。阿什利灵机一动：既然是给苹果公司的掌门人备餐，何不做一颗“绿苹果”？ 然而，苹果极易氧化变色，研发团队只有一周半的时间来攻克这一难题。阿什利带着一位研发厨师闭门钻研，最终成功用果冻复刻出了澳洲青苹果（Granny Smith）那鲜艳明亮的翠绿色，甚至做出了果皮上特有的微小斑点。最后，阿什利精心打包了五个柑橘肉果，正中央则摆放着这颗定制的青苹果送上飞机。阿什利当时甚至满心期待对方会激动地来电大赞“太绝了，你一定要来苹果公司看看”，结果却“音讯全无，一个字也没听到”。阿什利笑着调侃，以后有机会再见到乔尼·艾夫一定要当面提醒他这桩往事。 --- ### `01:15:00` 菜单的故事性、重新定义酒馆美食与尾声 从那颗定制的青苹果切入，阿什利强调了“故事性”（storytelling）在菜单研发中的核心地位。他指出，构建一家餐厅的菜单定位时，必须明确挑出 10 到 15 个能真正打动人的核心亮点。例如在 The Devonshire，地下一层设有专属的面包房；酒吧菜单上一道看似普通的培根三明治，其实背后的面包是自家烘烤的、培根是自家腌制熏制的、甚至连黄油都是自家搅拌制作的。这虽然算不上开天辟地的技术突破，但几乎没有同行愿意费此力气。阿什利强调，编造虚假的营销故事毫无意义，一旦露馅就会被戳穿，唯有真材实料地去做，故事与口碑才会真正产生沉甸甸的价值。 面对“在深厚的传统下，酒馆菜肴的创新边界究竟在哪里”这一提问，阿什利以他在多塞特郡（Dorset）成长的经历为例：过去英国的传统酒吧餐无非是炸小海虾（Scampi）配薯条、炸鱼薯条或是香肠肉汁土豆泥。但在当代，餐饮不断演进，关键在于“极致的纯粹与深藏不露的巧思”。 阿什利以店内的招牌烤羊排（Lamb Cutlets）生动拆解了这种烹饪哲学： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: The Devonshire 烤羊排风味赋能流程 accDescr: 展示从康沃尔羊排干式熟成、油脂熬炼、冷浸薄荷到最后涂抹刷油的完整烹饪链条 subgraph MeatPrep["原料与排酸熟成"] A["精选康沃尔羊肉<br/>(Cornwall Lamb)"] --> B["法式精修骨肉<br/>(French Trimmed)"] B --> C["干式熟成 14 天<br/>(14-day dry aged)"] end subgraph FatInfusion["独创冷浸薄荷羊脂"] D["剔下骨边多余羊脂"] --> E["慢火熬炼为纯净羊油"] E --> F["待羊脂冷却后<br/>加入新鲜薄荷叶冷浸"] F --> G["完全吸附薄荷挥发香气"] end subgraph Service["出餐定味"] C --> H["炭火烤制羊排"] G --> I["出餐前薄刷一层冷浸羊脂油"] H --> I I --> J["仅配以海盐与少许黑胡椒<br/>外表朴素，风味爆发"] end ``` - **原料与排酸**：选用来自康沃尔郡的优质羊肉，进行法式精修（French trim），并在专用冷库中干式熟成 14 天以浓缩风味。 - **冷浸薄荷羊脂**：英国人吃羊肉习惯配薄荷酱，但阿什利另辟蹊径——他们把剔下的羊骨油脂慢火熬成羊油，待油温完全冷却后，放入新鲜采摘的薄荷叶进行“冷浸萃取”（cold infused），让薄荷独特的挥发性清香完整融入醇厚的羊脂中。 - **极简呈现**：出餐前，厨师只需在刚烤好的羊排上轻轻刷上一层这种冷浸薄荷羊油，再撒上少许海盐和黑胡椒。端上桌时，它看起来就是一块朴素至极的烤羊排，没有任何花哨装饰，但一口咬下去，油脂的甘甜、薄荷的幽香与熟成羊肉的浓郁瞬间在口中迸发，带来远超视觉预期的冲击力。 节目的最后，主持人乔·威森塔尔（Joe Weisenthal）与特雷西·阿洛维（Tracy Allaway）向阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨表达了由衷的感谢，并打趣听众如果想订位记得去店里找奥伊辛碰碰运气。主持人随后完成了伦敦特辑两期节目的收尾，介绍了幕后制作团队成员（Carmen Rodriguez、Dashel Bennett、Kale Brooks、Kevin Lozano），并邀请听众订阅彭博社彭博终端与 Odd Lots 日报，参与官方 Discord 社群讨论及在播客平台留言。节目最后附带了 TED 职场播客 *Work Life with Molly Graham* 的推广音频。 ## Notable quotes > `05:00` 混沌、奇迹、美感与艺术的交融之地 — 奥辛·罗杰斯 > `24:00` the kids really are all right — 奥辛·罗杰斯 > `47:15` 毕竟一个人在倒下之前能喝的量就那么多 — 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨 > `50:00` we're never happy just going, you know what, that's finished — 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨 > `52:15` 没有任何信息是愚蠢显浅的，你绝不能预先假设厨师知道某些你压根没交代清楚的常识 — 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨 > `57:30` encourage people to drink better — 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨 > `01:02:40` 发生了什么？事情往往有两面性。 — 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨 > `01:10:00` 我们讨厌拒绝客人 — 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨 ## Mentioned The Devonshire, 奥辛·罗杰斯 (Oisín Rogers), 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨 (Ashley Palmer-Watts), 查理·卡罗尔 (Charlie Carroll), 乔·威森塔尔 (Joe Weisenthal), 特雷西·阿洛维 (Tracy Alloway), 健力士 (Guinness), 英国啤酒与酒吧协会 (BBPA), 威斯敏斯特地方议会 (Westminster City Council), 杰米·奥利弗 (Jamie Oliver), Jamie's Italian, 赫斯顿·布卢门撒尔 (Heston Blumenthal), 肥鸭餐厅 (The Fat Duck), Dinner by Heston Blumenthal, 乔尼·艾夫 (Jony Ive), Flat Iron, J D Wetherspoon, Stonegate, Mitchells & Butlers, 塞缪尔·史密斯 (Samuel Smith), Ye Olde Cheshire Cheese, The Stag's Head, 《熊家餐馆》(The Bear) ## Video description <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true" data-pm-slice="1 1 []">As our listeners know, restaurants are great microcosms for macro-economic trends. They sit at the intersection of everything from consumer confidence to commodity costs to the labor market. So on our recent visit to London, we wanted to learn about the business of pubs. According to the British Beer and Pub Association, approximately two pubs a day have closed in England during the first quarter of 2026. Could pubs tell us something about larger trends in the British economy? And when it comes to the day-to-day operations of the business: How is a pub different from a regular bar? And how are publicans &mdash; pub managers &mdash; dealing with the era of the &pound;10 pint? Today's episode is a special two-parter, devoted to the business of pubs. We talk to Oisin Rogers and Ashley Palmer-Watts, co-founders of the Devonshire, a famed London pub. The first part is with Rogers, who is the publican, and we discuss the difference between a good and bad pub, why he hates the word 'gastropub,' and how the indoor smoking ban changed the meaning of pubs for the average Londoner. Second up is a segment from our London live show with the Devonshire chef Palmer-Watts, who tells us about the complicated confluence of factors &mdash; from temperature to the right mix of gases &mdash; that lead to a perfect pint of Guinness, why higher ingredient costs (whether it's beef or scallops) don't always correlate to higher menu prices, and making a Victorian-era meat fruit for Apple's Jony Ive.</p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Read more:<br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-19/reeves-floats-price-freezes-on-food-in-bid-to-cut-uk-bills?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Reeves Floats Price Freezes on Food in Bid to Cut UK Bills</a> <br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-12/cpi-surge-squeezes-us-voters-already-facing-high-fuel-food-prices?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Inflation Resurgence Squeezes US Voters as Gas, Food Prices Rise</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article</p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Only <a href="http://Bloomberg.com" data-inline-card="" data-card-data="">http://Bloomberg.com</a> subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox each week, plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at&nbsp; <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true"><a href="http://bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Subscribe to the Odd Lots Newsletter</a><br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><strong data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="strong">Join the conversation:</strong> <a href="https://discord.gg/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">discord.gg/oddlots</a></p><p>See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.</p> [Source](https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/8a94442e-5a74-4fa2-8b8d-ae27003a8d6b/5eda2c06-d4fa-4a29-be6d-b451013967df/audio.mp3?in_playlist=982f5071-765c-403d-969d-ae27003a8d83)

[5:00] 奥辛·罗杰斯: 混沌、奇迹、美感与艺术的交融之地 [24:00] 奥辛·罗杰斯: the kids really are all right [47:15] 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨: 毕竟一个人在倒下之前能喝的量就那么多 [50:00] 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨: we're never happy just going, you know what, that's finished [52:15] 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨: 没有任何信息是愚蠢显浅的，你绝不能预先假设厨师知道某些你压根没交代清楚的常识 [57:30] 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨: encourage people to drink better [62:40] 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨: 发生了什么？事情往往有两面性。 [70:00] 阿什利·帕尔默-沃茨: 我们讨厌拒绝客人

[8:45] Oisin Rogers: I would say that was an economic earthquake for pubs for lots of reasons... lots of the old drinkers at that time would have stopped coming in because they couldn't smoke indoors and they would have gone on strike and drank less. So something had to be done. [22:30] Oisin Rogers: Anecdotally, I don't see that issue that people keep saying that young people don't want to work. Our best workers are between 18 and 23 years old... The kids really are all right. [62:00] Ashley Palmer-Watts: I don't yell, to be honest. It's much better to be silent... and have the gravitas. You get young chefs that are a little bit afraid when you're around—I just want to make them happy and do a great job.

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Health care doesn always work great If you ever waited on a refill or couldn schedule an appointment you get it That the kind of stuff Optum is changing They using data and technology to integrate patient care pharmacy and everything else So health care is connected not complicated What that look like Cheaper prescriptions that are easier to get and care that looks at the whole person how you need it Optum is helping make healthcare work as one for everyone. Learn more at business.optum.com. Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal. And I'm Tracy Alloway. Today you're going to be treated to a special two-part episode. We are here in London, and so we wanted to learn about the business of pubs, of course. And so we're bringing you first an interview with famed publican Oshin Rogers. He is the co-founder of the pub, The Devonshire. And then in the second half, that will be an interview that was recorded live at a show that we're doing here in London with the chef at the Devonshire, Ashley Palmer Watts. Take a listen. You know, we've talked about this before. Some of my favorite episodes, and I mean this completely unironically, are when we talk to people in the food service industry in some way because I truly think that you know what we specialize in which is sort of where the macro meets the micro et cetera There are so many whether it labor costs food costs, consumer sentiment, consumer appetites, et cetera. There are so many things that only someone in that specific industry gets a real view on at any given moment. No, totally. Restaurants and food service in general are great microcosms of macro trends. And so since we're in London, you know, a lot of the same restaurants, a lot of the same things. But of course, there are a lot of pubs here and we don't have as many in the U.S. And to the extent we have them in the U.S., I think they're not the same. They're like fake, right? They're like the replicas, they're bars that have the aesthetics of a pub. Can I say one thing? So I woke up this morning and I turned on BBC News and one of the top headlines was two pubs closing every day. And for as long as I can remember, since I came to the UK for university and then stayed for a decade, every year there have been these reports saying that pubs are closing down. And it's been going on, I guess, for 20 years now. And I very curious what is cited as the reason now because you would feel like the reason pubs are closing in say 2002 versus why they closing in 2026 would be different Yeah But the trend overall seems to remain the same It seems tough. Supposedly, Gen Z, they don't drink as much, which I think, but that can't, you know, that doesn't explain why that would have been a trend in, say, 2002. Right. Right. That's my point. There was another headline recently. Apparently, a pint has breached the 10 pound mark in some pubs. Oh, that is a lot. which is like a big deal. It's just, I mean, in New York, if you're $10, it's like, we're used to that. But I guess the 10, you know, pounds are worth more. Pubs, it's sort of, there would have been a riot at my university if anyone tried to charge 10 pounds for a pint. So anyway, while we're here in New York. back then, we were all drinking terrible things like Bacardi Breezers and things like that. But anyway, carry on. You know, my wife, she briefly worked at a pub in Ireland and apparently they got really upset with her for the quality of her poor. They're like, oh, not drinking that oh yeah anyway i don't think that lasted very long anyway we're here in london we gotta do a pub episode let's do it i'm very excited to say we really do have the perfect guest we're going to be speaking with one of the most famous if not the most famous publican in the uk i don't exactly know what a publican is or what defines a publican you're about to [5:00] Find out, Joe. So I'm about to find out. We're going to be speaking with Oshin Rogers. He is the co-founder of the Devonshire, one of the most popular pubs in the city. We're going to learn all about the pub business. So Oshin, thank you so much for coming on Outlaws. Joe, it's great to be here. Thank you so much. What is a pub? What's the difference? I've flown all the way from New York City to London to ask just one simple question. Then when I get the answer, I'll be ready to go home. I think this is actually an important question. What is the difference between a pub and a bar? Well, everywhere has got bars. As far as the places that people go to drink, you know, there are places for that occasion to just go and drink. But pubs are much more sort of connected into the fabric of British and Irish society. I think, honestly, they only really work well on these islands. I think what you said is right about the US. Yes, you do have pubs, but they're not the same. I think the pubs have a timelessness. A lot of the ones that are really great have been around for a very long time. And they have a function for people to meet in a neutral space where you can actually have drinks, have a chat. end up meeting people you wouldn't normally hang out with. And they're also a place of chaos and wonder and beauty and a bit of, you know, art. And you know it somewhere you can actually kick your shoes off and really enjoy and not know what going to happen next And they a place for great stories Can you explain the sort of landscape of British pubs where you have independent institutions such as your own versus a lot of chains? I was in a Samuel Smith pub the other day. We don't have bar chains. Yeah. Punch Taverns used to be the big one. I guess Weatherspoons. Oh my gosh, Weatherspoons was a place where I spent a lot of time in the early 2000s. Just to explain how it works here in terms of ownership? So pubs go back at least a thousand years, probably a lot longer than that, where people opened their houses and made ale or sold ale and let people come and kick back and enjoy themselves. I think during the 18th and 19th centuries, mostly, the brewers started becoming more powerful. So there was lots of regional brewers in all around and there still are and some of them are still amazing. And they tended to try and buy pubs up so that they could sell their wares through those businesses. And quite a lot of those pubcos in the sort of early 20th century, you know, right up until the 50s, they'd have 1,000 pubs or some had up to 3,000 pubs. And that sort of became more commercial. In the 80s, those pubs started getting traded as lots and bulk. And then there came like Allied Breweries at one stage had 6 pubs We still have big operators that come from those brewers like Stonegate like Weatherspoons like you said You know we got smaller ones in London like Fullers and Youngs and you got Mitchell's and Butler's that own the majority of the successful pubs across the country. Free houses have always been, you know, harder to find and more difficult to run because you don't have the economy of scale. But I love a free house and I worked for a long time in the managed house business. And it was great to work there, too. Before we get to your current pub, give us a little bit of your history. What were you doing prior to opening the dev? Prior to opening the dev? Well, go back to me. I went to university in Dublin in 1986. I studied chemistry, physics, applied maths. I was going to become a food tech engineer. I didn't enjoy university much. Got a job in a pub called the Stag's Head. Part time. Loved that more than anything else. Gave up on university. And since then, since 1986, I've worked in pubs. And in 1991, I had my first pub in London. And I've run a lot of pubs in London in that time. And the Devonshire is the one I'm currently at. What year did you open the Devonshire? Devonshire opened in November 23. So we're there about two and a half years, but it feels like 20. What was the thinking? Because as you say, opening an independent pub is a pretty big challenge Well I think the Devonshire might be a little bit more than a pub We got this wonderful restaurant upstairs It in an incredible location right in the centre of the city I always felt that the West End and the city while it has some really great pubs most of them are very small and a lot of them are not amazingly good. And we wanted to open something that was really attractive, that would make people feel comfortable and safe and happy and have really great products. And we found this great big site right by Piccadilly Circus. and we just turned it into a pub on the ground floor with an amazing restaurant upstairs. And it's been fun. I will say the reason I was in a Sam Smith pub last night was because we were waiting for a theatre ticket and there weren't a lot of good options. I probably should have gone just a little further to the Devonshire. Well, next time, Tracey, you'd be so welcome. It'd be great to see you. You mentioned food just then. And this seems to be a key thing in the survival of pubs nowadays, which is if you can tack on gastronomy of some sort and good food, the economics seem to shift quite a lot. They completely change, if I'm honest, for lots of reasons. You know, when I go back, you know, 20 years ago, there was very little food in pubs. Everybody smoked in the pubs and you could smoke at the counter and the whole place was full of smoke. So you wouldn't consider eating anything. And that gradually changed. So we moved more towards snacks you could eat standing up and then table meals. And then the gastropub started in about 1991 to 95 years. [10:00] And that's really become a thing where gastropubs are now really restaurants. And there's a sort of a real border happening between pubs and restaurants where you can do both. They can be very successful because the pub brings people in and people can drink before and after the meal in the bar area. And, you know, it's a really nice convivial environment. And they're not as codified as restaurants, if you know what I mean. You can sort of they're more higgledy piggledy. You can sort of get away with a little bit more chaos. And, you know, it's they're more fun, I think, in a lot of ways. You know, you find a great gastropub in the country, you're going to want to go back. And the same across London. We've got some amazing ones. Wait, just on the history real quickly. Did you say it was more like because of the elimination of indoor smoking that actually created the space for this notion of a gastropub? Was that crucial? I would say that was an economic earthquake for pubs for lots of reasons. because lots of the old drinkers at that time would have stopped coming in because they couldn't smoke indoors and they would have gone on strike and drank less. So something had to be done. So they needed to attract a new audience. And it was really exciting for people to go back to pubs because your clothes wouldn't smell of smoke anymore. So a new sort of audience started coming in and younger people started drinking in there with an expectation of cocktails and Bacardi Breezers like you mentioned earlier came straight out of that and all those hooch drinks and stuff you know so it always been changing But at the same time, it's always been timeless and the same. We're in the business of making people feel comfortable, safe, happy, welcome, well looked after and people need that and they love it. Does anyone still drink snake bites? I hope, thankfully not. What was a snake bite? It was like this terrible concoction of it was beer and then like some sort of cordial cider. Yeah. And then like a sweet thing in it. Blackcurrant. Well, it always worries me that you've beer, which is clear and beautiful and fizzy, and then you've cider, which is clear and beautiful and fizzy. You mix the two of them together, it becomes this really cloudy thing that you've got to color it purple with the blackcurrant in order to make it sweet enough to drink. I'm certain it's not good for you and I don't sell very much of it, thankfully. ask you a question and we're not going to name names here what's a bad pub you say like okay you said oh you looked around you didn't see many good pubs what is it you walk into a pub it's like this doesn't have it what's missing i think you there's lots of things i think how we are made to feel is always an amalgamation of the inputs that we got so that what we we hear what we smell what we see what we taste and what we touch If you walk into a place and you see that the person who likely to be serving you is miserable, or the lighting's too bright or too dark, or it sounds wrong, like the music is wrong, or it smells horrid, or something's not quite right in terms of the visual noise that you see, and it's not beautiful, the chances of you having a great time and feeling great are already diminished before you go anywhere near the counter and buy anything. So we always think about those sensual inputs when we're being good in terms of making sure that it looks clean and bright and that the staff are in the right mindset to make people feel comfortable in that they're comfortable and safe and happy themselves and well paid. And, you know, it's an amalgamation of those things that makes atmosphere and atmosphere is the key and making sure that that is there. You know, and I think of pubs. OK, there's the beer and then there's certain dishes that I associate with pub food, the scotch egg, the sausage roll. And I'm always fascinated by a lot of in any field. A lot of creativity comes from figuring out what you can do with a certain set of constraints. And I have to imagine that there is a certain you know you deviate too much and it no longer a pub anymore It a bar or something like that What are the constraints with which you feel like you in a gastropub where you food and beer or food and alcohol What are the formal constraints where if you go beyond this you're something other than a pub? I think it's a really good question. I'm going to answer it by saying it's a kind of a spectrum. So on one end, you've got the codified restaurant where you have to reserve and you sit at a square table and you never talk to anyone else apart from your server and your guest. on the other end you've got a wet pub that doesn't sell any food at all and you can just wander in there have a pint and end up standing anywhere you want you can't reserve any area and you can have a drink and stay as long as you want in between you've kind of got the gastropub which is in the middle some of it will be reserved for guests and some of it will be chaotic and you can go and have a beer and there's a whole sliding scale all the way along and the bit from a good wet pub with good food to a gastropub that is definitely a restaurant is actually really wide So there's lots of different places you could go in between. So it's really hard to define. And actually, I hate the word gastropub because it no longer means anything. Because that middle of the spectrum is actually so wide that you want to know where that business is. [15:00] Thank you. We'll see you next time. Okay not so fun fact Autoimmune skin conditions are actually on the rise Cases are climbing nearly 20 every year I know terrible opener for a podcast ad But here the thing I Holly Frey and our skin exists precisely because of stats like that Because more people than ever are living with conditions like psoriasis and hydrodinitis suppurativa. And most of them are doing it alone, without answers, without community, without anyone to tell them what the heck is actually going on. You know, not that many people knew about it. And I felt kind of alone, Like, am I an outcast? That's where we come in. We talk doctors. We talk appointments that are, well, a disappointment. We talk about the flare-ups and the breakthroughs. 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Whereas before the smoking ban, they thought that they could sort of mitigate against it by moving people away from the bar so that the staff wouldn't be breathing the smoke in. And they thought that was going to be okay. And so therefore, they didn't allow people to sit at the bar anymore as much. So people sort of retreated away. And I think it became a little less social then. And we're trying to bring that back. So we've brought all our stools back to the bar. So people are likely to be shoulder to shoulder and chat away and stuff like that. I think it always changing but it also always the same There are places where community gets together And the great thing about pubs as well is they tend to be very democratic In other words you get people who can just about afford to have a beer and you can get people who could buy the whole place And they can be shoulder to shoulder too and chatting to each other. And there's a kind of a leveling when you're just having a pint. And I've seen it many times where you'll get the guy who's been sweeping the street or cleaning your car or fixing your car, sitting beside a CEO or a judge or a senior leader, and they'll have great fun. And that doesn't happen in many places. And I think we're really proud to be able to do that and have that democracy. Let's talk more about the business specifics of the dev. You already hinted at it, but tell more. Let's start with, okay, location. What did you see in this specific spot such that you had, this could be an ambitious, big investment? Well, I really felt that, you know, that democracy of demographic and of age is really important so that you're able to attract everybody. You're right in the middle of central London, literally at Piccadilly. It's about the busiest footfall place you could possibly find. So we knew the market was there. But what we needed to do was make sure we made a place that people would want to come to as well. So we just did it. And we thought about it for a couple of years together, me and Ashley and Charlie. And we were very careful about what our unique selling points would be. [20:00] We really stuck with those. We also felt that it was important that people would feel that they had value for time and value for money when they came in. So as well as being able to spend, you know, two and a half grand on a bottle of 2001 Chateau Lafitte, we can still have a pint of beer for $4.95. So we stick to that now. We've got the set menu for $29.95 or the scotch egg for $4.95, which I hope you had last time you were in. I love the scotch egg. And you can still spend, you know, 150 quid on an incredible piece of dry aged Scottish beef, which will be amazing. So you've got that whole sort of sliding scale of spend. And that's really important to us that people can get in there, have a great time and not spend a lot. But at the same time, if they want to spend a lot, they can and they do. Just to be clear, which came first? Was it the building was coming up for sale? And so you thought this would be a good opportunity or was it you wanted to start your own pub? and so you went out looking for locations so we were out looking for locations because we wanted to do a pub we knew we wanted to do a pub with really great food there are very very few big pubs in central london but because it's a very large building well the devonshire as it is was a pub before it was called the devonshire right up until 2009 but it was less than half the size it is now In fact probably a quarter the size So when that closed down in 2009 the landlords took the building back and they put it together with the building next door and they knocked it through to turn it into a huge restaurant. And that was Jamie Oliver's first Jamie's Italian. And he was incredibly successful. I love Jamie, by the way, and he did a fabulous job there up until his business ran away from him a little bit in 2019. And it closed just before the pandemic. So we'd always had our eye on it, hoping that we could persuade the city to turn it back into a pub and that we might be able to operate it. And that was a big journey for us to make that happen. Just real quickly, does this city have a finite number of pub licenses? Or is it just you have to meet a bar? It's a very complicated question. Basically, if you have a pub license, you can operate it and obviously trade it and sell it, but in the same location. When pub licenses like the old Devonshire one laps, they're gone. So to apply for a new pub license and be granted it is very unusual, particularly in Westminster, but we managed to make it happen. Wait, so this is one of the things that always comes up when you see the reports about pub closures in the UK It too much tax heavy regulation Can you walk us through like when people say regulatory burden on pubs what exactly does that mean Well the biggest regulatory burden we have is licensing, which is obviously for public safety to make sure that you don't do things like have too many people in, open at the wrong time, serve people who are drunk, encourage crime, all of those stuff. But those can be very burdensome in some locations for lots of reasons. You've also got to make sure your neighbours are happy, that you don't make too much noise. I heard noise ordinances were also a major issue. Yeah, there's a big issue with that, particularly in the suburbs outside. There's lots of regulations about when you can have deliveries because of what time they'll come and go, how much noise they'll be, where you store your bins, what time they're collected, how your bottles are handled. There's lots and lots of things. But of course, all of these regulations are there for the benefit of our society and our communities. And most of them are great, but some of them can be quite burdensome for businesses. I mentioned at the beginning, I really was not trying to put my wife on blast by mentioning that she got scolded for her pouring. But, you know, I take it that labor is an important factor and skilled labor is an important factor. Absolutely. Talk to us about the market for that and the supply and the ease with which one can hire not just a bartender who capable of the poor but someone who happy and someone who if you put such an emphasis on making the customers feel welcome and warm and so forth what does that look like today? We really look for people who will feel comfortable in our environment. So people who've got great skills at relating to others, great skills at wooing people to have a nice time, people who will work hard and, you know, are able to believe what we believe in terms of hard to find if i like if if you found a skilled bartender today would you be like yeah come in absolutely um we find ourselves quite lucky and anecdotally i don't see that issue that people keep saying that young people don't want to work our best workers are between 18 and 23 years old we've got a dozen amazing examples of that who are so reliable so hard-working incredibly happy very efficient and thankfully really well looked after by us and i'm really proud of that. It's great. And some of my colleagues in town and some of the better restaurants are saying the same thing, that the kids really are all right. How competitive is your pay in the world of pubs to this point? And then also, were you affected by Brexit at all in terms of your labour supply? I think Brexit was once again a little bit of a shock in that we did lose a lot of our sort of casual Italian [25:00] French, German, Spanish and Greek team. A lot of those were able to apply at the time for a right to remain and stay. And a lot of them did. But we lost a few. But then the tap turned off to them. However, we are finding that there are other nationalities and other channels of people coming through. And a lot of our very best employees are British now. And we're very proud of that. The £10 pie. What's going on with that? Is it just a few locations? And what are you seeing pricing like? I think prices have gone up, and that's gone up because of the cost of production, the cost of transport, the cost of the raw materials, the cost of everything going on ahead. But I think it's rising at the same steepness that it always has. And I can never remember a year when public house people, you know, pub people all got together and said, oh, we've been amazing. It's smashed to this year. There's always an element of doom and gloom. And, you know, I try to avoid it as much as I can. And we try to give people great value for money. We keep a pint on that's less than a fiver always. Our biggest seller is Guinness, which is 720 now. I think that's fair. But I think it true You can if you want to go and find a pint for But is that the place you going to really want to drink I don think so How does it work with your suppliers How much pricing power or negotiating power do you actually have when you're putting in orders for your drinks? So what we try and do, and I think what most of the industry does, is to fix our prices for a long period of time. So we'll know what volume we're going to do. We'll speak to a load of suppliers and tender out our purchasing. They'll come back to us with a price. We'll make a decision and then we can do the budget. We try and keep it as simple as that. And, you know, with some of our suppliers, we're fixed more or less now for three years. So I'm pretty happy with that. On Guinness specifically, people are very weird about, oh, you can't get a good Guinness in the United States. And then you're in London. You can't get a good Guinness in London. I can never know if that's just like one of these things that's in people's head, etc. Where do you stand on the question of is one even capable of getting a good Guinness? like within is there a certain diameter around Ireland in which the quality of your Guinness pours declined? All of the Guinness in the UK now is made in Dublin. It's exactly the same as what you get in Dublin when it arrives in the pub. However there probably 30 variables that can make a difference as to what it tastes like when it gets to the glass and you taste it So in order to get those 30 variables spot on is really really difficult What are some of the key ones The temperature of the keg, the temperature of the room it's in, the width of the line it comes through, the mixture of gas that you push it through with, the temperature of the cooler, the speed it comes through the line, the kind of tap you've got, how clean your glass is, lots and lots of things. Do you do a lot of testing on these things? and like talk to as as someone who at one point went into was envisioning going into food science yeah talk a little bit about that science of how you figured out for the dev the optimal temperature mix of gas and so forth this is what we actually do i've been selling goodness for 40 years so i knew that most of the most of the way it's done in the uk is different and not necessarily the best way all right so when i was before we did the devonshire me and my business partners went to Dublin and we spent some time having a look around. So we went into the cellars where the beer was being stored and we had a look at the temperatures, the pressures, the gas they were using, the night at a time that they left it to sit, how wide the lines were, what temperature the coolers were, how quick it was coming through at the top. We looked at the nozzles the taps and all of that And we did a big study on the best way to do it And we put together our way of doing it which might not be exactly the way anyone else does but somehow it works, and people think our Guinness tastes great. And I'll believe that if they tell me so. I'm very pleased about it. Can you explain, I guess from a cultural perspective, why the pouring of a pint looms so large in the UK's psyche? Because this is something like, you don't really have this in the US, right? People are not going to complain that the foam was like… The foam is like a centimeter. Yeah. Well, I'll tell you what I think it is. I think it goes back to that timelessness and that there's a performance that happens behind a bar. Yeah. If you think of the best pubs you've ever seen, the bar is always kind of in the space where you can see it from everywhere. So it becomes like a stage in a theater and the staff are like the players. So the customers want to know that they're doing their very best and that they can talk about something that's banal and won't cause offence. So the great thing about talking about your Guinness with someone you don't know is you know you're not going to fall out because you're not going to get into any political territory. You're not going to talk about religion or race or anything like that. You can go, well, I know a place where there's a slightly better one and they do this and I can split the G and this tastes really great. [30:00] My favourite one. And it's kind of a gorgeous, beautiful, banal, sociable thing to be able to banter about and know that you're not going to cross any red lines and know that you're going to have a fun time. And I think that's really important. There's both the theatrical and performance part and then there's the sociable part. It's a really lovely thing to be able to talk about. I think British people also love to complain. And so having, and I can say that because I'm married to a Brit, but like having something to unite around and complain about. That makes sense. It's such a piece. Talk to anyone. You're never going to get in too much of a fight. It's never going to be too much. I've literally never seen someone fall out about a Guinness or a conversation about Guinness. It's always fun. Yeah, that makes a lot of sense. So speaking of speaking, as I've gotten older, I've become very sensitive to loud places. I walk by a place and there's booming music. I'm like, I don't want to walk into there, obviously. I want to have a conversation with someone. Talk to us about sound design and building an environment that is conducive to a conversation. I think that really important for pubs And I have a particular view on this that people might not always agree on I don think that having sports and TVs in traditional pubs is a good idea I also don think that having background music on speakers is a good idea And some do. Some do and some disagree with me. But for me, I think it's best to leave it out. And I think that the sound you should hear is the sound of convivial chat in the background and the clink of glasses and people having fun. And I think that's a very calming sound to have. And we think also really carefully about how sound would travel through through a space i think the very best post and particularly the old ones if you look at them they've got screens and little places you can hide and sort of textured wallpapers on the ceilings and on the on the wall so the sound doesn't bounce around as much it's a much more dead space and they use really thick old carpets as well so that you know you can have a private conversation and you can't be overheard and there's places you can hide and places you can sort of not be seen. And I think that's really important. And, you know, having, you know, a lot of sometimes places are great big square boxes where if you say something, the sound travels everywhere. And we really avoid that in our design. I love pubs with little like hidden nooks and crannies. They're the best, don't they? There a great one which I recommended to one of our producers yesterday the Cheshire Cheese just down Fleet Street It a great pub Love that place with all the little rooms and things So you know we mentioned the headlines about pubs closing Can you diagnose the problem here? Like if you had to give us a summary of what exactly is going on, what is it? I think a lot of it is down to historical stuff. The pub was, you know, 100 years ago, the place where people spent all of their leisure time, whereas leisure time has now been carved up with sport with live music with concerts with tv with your phone at home you can do that at a pub yeah but i think the best pubs are up there fighting alongside it yeah for those occasions and i think we're entering a golden age for pubs because you know while the world is saying that we're all going to move into this two-dimensional AI space where we'll be, you know, playing games and looking at stuff on screens, I can see anecdotally that people are coming in and really loving the shared experience of the chaos of being in a room full of other humans. And I think that that's going to translate into all sorts of stuff like sport into being able to go to musical concerts into going to the zoo or you know spending time in spaces with real people It far more exciting than what everybody banging on about with AI Don the Sam Smith pubs I sorry to keep going on about them but don't they ban phones or something? They certainly do, and that's a really interesting company and worth digging into because old Humphrey Smith, who runs that firm, he's a bit like Willy Wonka in a good way. And all of their beers, you know, they still make them themselves, they make their own vodka, they bottle their own wine. they they it's a really closed closed company yeah and very interesting one of the things you hear is that young people don't drink as much as the older generations do another pretty contemporary trend that is not young people per se is the rise of glp-1s and which supposedly also curtail people's desire to drink alcohol i can't imagine guinness is an attractive proposition if you're taking a zembic or something right but what do you see in terms of like consumer tastes among newer younger people right now um i think this whole story that young people don't drink has been massively exaggerated okay i see loads of people you know between 18 and 25 still piling in and you know having pints and having fun in the same way as i did uh when i was that age and [35:00] Yeah, maybe they are overall drinking a little bit less and maybe being a bit more healthy, which is a great thing, but they certainly enjoy a few beers. And I think if you start off in business thinking, oh, young people don't drink anymore, so I'm not going to look after them. They certainly are not going to come in. I think we need to look after those guys and make sure that they feel comfortable and safe and keep the pub as a center of community for them so that they can use it in the same way we did. This is a very cliched journalistic question, but what's the hardest part of running a pub? The hardest part, I think, is deciding you're going to do it. Because if you do it and you do it well, it's a real vocation and you do it all the time. It's not a part-time job. What are your working hours like, actually? I never turn off. So I spend six or seven days a week in the pub. I'll be there at least a few hours a day, sometimes the whole day. And to do it well, I think you've got to be there. What are you doing when you're there? like when you when you're on site what's uh what are you doing is it management yelling at people we don't we don't yell but no it it does we've got 165 staff so just meeting and looking after them and making sure they feeling good is a really great thing i obsess about details about making sure that everything is clean and there no visual noise around the place and that people know to keep that stuff correct. I'm always looking at, you know, paintwork and finishes and where stuff is placed and making sure things are like that. But to me, it feels a little bit now I've moved on in my career, it feels more like conducting an orchestra. So I can see what everybody's doing. I love catching my team doing things correctly and right. I love them going above and beyond. And I just love working with these brilliant people that I work with. So, you know, just spending time with people is what I've put my life to. And it's really great. Sorry, I'm laughing because I'm thinking about the story that you told about your wife not being able to pour a pint. And I tell you, that was not her fault. Because if she had been properly shown how to do it, then that would not have happened. Yeah, I don't think she was trained. I think she was just thrown in there. Well, this is exactly what I was going to say. So my husband very briefly worked as a bartender at Weatherspoons, got zero training, was basically thrown into it and made all sorts of mistakes, including pouring everyone like the top shelf gin before he was actually told about the cheap stuff and also mixing up hoisin and barbecue sauce at one point and things like that But what I was going to ask actually working in pubs or restaurants is sort of a notoriously pressurized environment and sometimes kind of an abusive environment. Has your management style changed at all over the years? Do you find the way you manage people now is different to what you would have been doing in the 1990s or early 2000s? I don't think it's markedly different, but I am super aware that managing people well and making sure that they feel empowered and that they know what's going on and that they feel comfortable, safe and happy is everything. Because when our employees feel that, I know that the business accelerates. And that has been really what I've concentrated on. In terms of having seen, you know, unpleasant things in the past in kitchens and around, once again, thankfully not in my places, but certainly I think there was a lot of that around. And I hope there's not much of it about now. Just, you know, just on the business question, having started, you know, the inflation that happened in 2021, 22 exploded everywhere. Yeah. You mentioned that you always going to have a pint that under five quid But talk to us just about like when you think about menu design or when you think about beer selection or just when you think about the business in general managing a pub today with today's raw input prices, et cetera, versus if we had been having this conversation in the mid 2010s or in the mid 90s. Like how different is it because of the reality of just the high cost of many things i think footfall is hard is has been hit the most in pubs and that's a big killer i i think if you're selling hundreds of pints a day you're not so much worried about the margins okay and you know i'd like to i always have flipped it on the on its head for us in that we've always gone for volume so when we're full we're not so worried yes of course our costs are really high um but you know when you have margin and it kind of balances itself out and what's the What's the key in finding a business partner? This is always a really difficult thing in any business, right? Going into business with someone or two people or finding the right investor that will be aligned time-wise and margin-wise and return-wise. Having done this now, what are some of the important things to know, whether it's a pub or even anything, about the type of person you're willing to go into business with? I would say don't go into business with someone who has got [40:00] same skills as you because you because you will both be doing the same thing. You need to find someone who has completely different skills to you. And in the case of me, Ashley and Charlie, it's a perfect example. Charlie is a big picture guy. He's set up his own restaurant chain, Flatiron, and was incredibly successful there. He thinks really from the from the top down. He's very commercial. He's brilliant in meetings when it comes down to the financial side of things and great like that. we've got ashley who spent 20 years working alongside the best chef in the world earned five michelin stars in that time his attention to detail on the food and product and purchasing side is second to none and he's also a wonderful guy and i think you're going to be speaking to him which is great he has the best palette for tasting things i've ever seen he knows ingredients inside and out and he was able to really choose dishes that we could do all year round so we don't have to change them. So we don't have to be seasonal like everybody else. And that makes a big difference on the impact of cost. Yeah. And then there's me who's the, you know, front of house guy. I front the business talk to everybody operate the thing So we like three corners of a working triangle And for me that has been unbelievable And, you know, we do have some similar skills, you know, in terms of the business. But the main ones are all very, very far apart. And that has made us really strong. This is actually the perfect segue into the next segment of our conversation and our next guest. But one other thing I would love to ask, and I apologize in advance for asking it so directly, But what are the margins actually like for a pub like yours? We're pretty happy. I think because we're a private business and we don't necessarily have to say, I'm going to keep that discreet. But we're certainly at a similar level to the marketplace, if not maybe a little bit higher. And I think good pubs are still converting at, you know, between 15 and 25 percent. But, you know, it's a great position to be in if we were at that. thank you so much for coming on oddloss that was great Joe I'm absolutely delighted to be on the podcast I listen to it all the time and seeing and hearing your voice at the same time same for you Tracy has been a great pleasure so thank you so much for having me on I'm glad we made this happen cheers buddy Thank you. you can find the right fit for any audience purpose or budget. You can customize it all your logo, your message, your look, and many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point. So you can make a real impact while staying on budget. Plus you'll get expert help, fast turnaround times, and their 360 degree guarantee. So you can be four imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right. Whatever your goal, 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match. Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint.com. 4imprint, 4certain. Okay, not so fun fact. Autoimmune skin conditions are actually on the rise Cases are climbing nearly 20 every year I know terrible opener for a podcast ad But here the thing I Holly Frey and our skin exists precisely because of stats like that Because more people than ever are living with conditions like psoriasis and hydrodinitis suppurativa. And most of them are doing it alone, without answers, without community, without anyone to tell them what the heck is actually going on. You know, not that many people knew about it, and I felt kind of alone, like, am I an outcast? That's where we come in. We talk doctors. We talk appointments that are, well, a disappointment. We talk about the flare-ups and the breakthroughs. Then we dive deep into the wild, occasionally gross, always fascinating history of how humans have tried to understand our skin over the centuries. Spoiler alert, we did not always get it right. Listen to Season 3 of Our Skin, a personal discovery podcast on the iHeartRadio app, Apple Podcasts, or wherever you get your podcasts. [45:00] Shaping our future from geopolitics and global trade to technology and the world's new balance of power. You'll have a front row seat to the conversations that matter most. Watch live at Bloomberg New Economy dot com. That's Bloomberg New Economy dot com. All right. So that was our conversation recorded in our London studio with Ocean Rogers. And now you're going to hear our live episode recorded with Chef Ashley Palmer Watts. I love the Devonshire, by the way. It's a great spot. That's a good start. Yes, a good start. Now, I'm going to ask you to expose your trade secrets and give us in the most excruciating detail possible the conditions to serve the perfect pint of Guinness. How long do we have? We have half an hour. So pre the pub, I asked my now partner, Oshin, what were all the myths busted and what were the truths? He said, look, it's going to take an hour. We don't have an hour, so I'm going to top line it for you. Okay. Basically, it starts with, obviously, the beer coming in. Okay. And then you need to let it settle, and you need to bring the temperature down. Huh. Really I mean slowly but I mean it takes a couple of days Okay So it come into the sort of corridor I mean we sell a lot so we not got enough space So it everywhere Every door you open is there It sits in the corridor comes gently down Then it goes under the street in the sort of old caves in there. Okay. And it comes down. That's all chilled. That comes down. Then it goes into the cellar. So about two days later. Okay. It then sits there, doesn't get disturbed again until you tap it and you start serving it. Okay. The pipes from the cellar to the tap are the shortest it can possibly be from the cellar to upstairs. So it's directly underneath the bar. Then you have the right circumference of the pipe to allow the right flow. Okay. Then it's about pressure. Okay. Let's talk pressure. You need to put enough pressure through to pour it in about 13, 14 seconds up to the top of the harp. Okay. And then you have that 90-second rest on the font. The pressure of the gas, there's two gases. There's nitrogen and CO2. Okay. Now, in Ireland, they do an 80-20, 80 nitrogen, 20 CO2. In England, we're kind of made to buy a premixed gas, which is 75-25. We actually mix our own and our own little magic number is 82 And then from there it about the type of there a little plate in the pourer with five tiny holes like pinholes Okay. And depending on which one of those you choose, it gives you your texture. And then it's a balance. So it's pressure, gas mix, temperature, and time. And then trying to get everyone to follow that and really understand it and respect that. And there you go. That was awesome. Can I just say, this seems like a lot of work. I asked your partner this question, but I would be curious to get your thoughts as well. And I'm going to play the role of ignorant American here. But why does pouring a good pint loom so large in the British consciousness? Because in the U.S., you know, someone hands us a bottle of Bud Light. We don't really complain that much. Maybe we should. I guess it's quicker, I suppose. But I mean, you know, the thing about pubs is they're so British. It's part of our heritage that I think it is for literally everyone, right? It doesn't matter who you are, how rich you are, how poor you are, what you're there for, whether it catching up with friends or you sad or you happy or whatever or just on your own with your own thoughts in your head I think you know it about taste and appreciation And I often ask myself why is it that we love beer so much? And I don't know the reason because, you know, you can only drink so many before you fall over. So maybe that's the lovely tension between the two. Let's just stick on the technical questions for a moment. How did you figure this out? So like, OK, like you've optimized something. How did you go from, OK, you're going to start a pub. It's going to be a big investment up front. You want to get it just right. Was there A-B testing? Was there taste testing? Like, what does that process look like of making sure that the final mix of gas, everything that you know you have it right? Well, I would say it's probably not finished. And I'll tell you the reason why. The question comes, and a good friend of mine who's very, very clever, he's an American guy, scientist, food scientist. We're actually talking to him at the moment about the solubility of those gases in the liquid. Great. So at the end of the night, the gases are turned off on those cakes. And what that means is that if you leave the pressure on, the solubility takes too much of that gas into the beer, the beer becomes too foamy and too frothy. [50:00] But my question to him was, and we don't know the answer yet, he's coming back in June and we're going to try and figure this out with Osh as well, is that as the volume of beer in the keg reduces, the relative gas saturation to it could be have a sliding scale of the solubility, but then there's the thing of saturation of the solubility of the gas. So it's a really complicated thing, probably a little bit above my understanding. But we're never happy just going, you know what, that's finished. And I think that's key with anything to do with the restaurant. But you get to do lots of taste testing as you go along. Well, it has to be done. To be fair, yeah, it's not a bad place to be at work. OK, so I know you've been at a bunch of different restaurants, including famously the chef at the Fat Duck with Heston Blumenthal. When you go about setting up a menu, when you first go to the drawing board and say, this is what we want our menu to be, how important are the actual economics and the price points? Would you say, this dish sounds phenomenal and I would like to do it, but actually the unit economics don really work for it When I joined Ocean Charlie originally they just wanted one recipe of a dish that we used to serve in Bray I said, yeah, this is no problem. I can, you know, you can have it. It's fine. I said, look, you know, why don't we make something synonymous with the pub? And it was more about creating things. The economic side is really, really important. But it's more about what is it you're coming to experience? What are you going to feel? What are we doing for you? Why are you coming to us? So after the hours Guinness chat, we then brought Guinness into the beef cheek and suet pudding and finished the sauce with some Guinness. And it became synonymous with the pub. The process of the menu, they had an idea of the framework of what this menu would be. I came in quite late, obviously just over a year before we opened. What year did it open for those in the audience? November 23. Okay. So November 22, we started talking. And then January 23, we sat down in Oshin's flat in Soho. And we just talked about food for three days straight. And it was based around that framework. So we went through and there are a few things that were left off and a few things that were added in And I sort of was the conduit of almost like two parents input on what they loved and what they didn't love about certain things of what this thing could be. You know, so, you know, we wanted to do a scallop dish. And if we could buy scallops from this diver up in Scotland and, I don't know, maybe we'll make our own bacon and maybe if we could use malt vinegar somehow. So I would distill this down into a plan, add my sort of, I don't know, 25 years, 30 years experience in creating things, but then creating things that we could replicate on large numbers. You know, we'll do 650 covers today in the restaurant, for example. So it's great making it for 50, but you need to do it for a large volume. So that's really where there's a lovely tension between that. Actually, talk more about that. I'm sort of fascinated by the idea of, okay, you have a recipe, it might be good, but that doesn't necessarily mean it's going to be able to scale for and do it in volume. I still, like, in my mind, I don't understand how restaurants work. How do they get so much food out so fast? I don't really understand how steakhouses work. Talk to us about building the repetition process. Yeah so I mean it about experience Experience and knowledge is probably the most powerful thing that you can that you gain through your career You know you think you know everything at 25 Reality is 20 years later you know a lot more I think it's about understanding how things work and where mistakes can happen, where gaps are that allow those mistakes to happen and fix in the root cause. So reducing down mistakes gives you greater consistency. so when i am building recipes around a dish you want to put as much measurable control in there as possible clear simple step-by-step approach you know no information is stupid really because you you don't want to assume that people know something that you don't make clear to them in the first place and then it's about you know for example the all the beef that we have We have a room probably a bit bigger than this stage where all the beef is aged downstairs. We have a grill in one of the dining rooms called the grill room. And we burn oak and beech in a massive kiln. It runs at eight, 900 degrees. We knock the wood down into embers and then we lift them onto the ember beds and we cook at different heights and temperatures. And so you can cook the whole way, you know, if you wanted a medium steak or a medium, you know, beef jam. [55:00] You could do that the whole way, but it would be a much more gentle process, slower, because you've got to allow that heat to transfer in. We've set it up slightly differently. We cook very quickly and quite hot so that we create the crust, we create the sear, then it goes on to the next person which is in the kitchen and they control medium, medium well, medium rare, rare, and they look after it from there because to do that for this many covers all the way on the grill would be impossible. You need a grill five times the size. Joe, why did we decide to record this conversation at dinnertime? I know. You were talking about beef just then and clearly earlier in the conversation, we were talking about higher beef prices. How much of an issue is that for someone who is actually serving that meat at the restaurant? Yeah, I mean, it is a challenge. I mean, it went up quite a lot over the last couple of years. Yeah, and you specialize in beef. You have a whole room dedicated to it. It doesn't come down. Yeah. Nothing ever comes down, to be fair. Occasionally, fish will come down, but pretty much, we're now seeing the effects like the guys were saying earlier, the fuel and prices are going up, another 30p on a scallop. It's quite a lot. I think you just got to be clever I mean we buy direct from abattoirs because of the scale that we can and Charlie relationships with different beef producers But it about having an entry level So we use skirt steak you know which is on our menu for three courses steak and chips prawn cocktail and then sticky toffee And it's about utilising the right cut at the right price for accessibility and a sort of anyone can come to our restaurant. It's not expensive. But then you can come and spend £100 on a beef chop, for example. So there's that range, you know. It's top and bottom. Wait, this actually – I forget who we were talking about this earlier, but we need to clear something up. Is it true – Oh, this was with Francine this morning. Is it true that it's a really bad idea to order the second most expensive wine on the menu? This is a thing that they always say, that that is there for suckers and that that's the one at the highest margin. Can you talk about wine pricing? is it true that you're a fool to buy the second most expensive one? Well, I'm sure in some places he could be right, but I mean, I can only talk about, you know, what we do and, um, you know, we, we have a nice list and it, and it does range, but it it really does focus on that entry level So instead of you know that old thing of you know having your house wine and it the cheapest one and no one orders it because it the cheapest one and go for the other one We actually work with one of Osh friends in Portugal and he makes our Devonshire wine Now, it's not our house wine. It punches a little bit higher up the list than that. But the prices are down where house wines are because we don't want to penalize people for coming in at an entry level. but I think when you construct the wine list the higher you go up in the value the sort of better value you get the margins are less we don't apply okay a whole you know three or four times across the whole thing and and you know hope for the best it's you want to be smart you want to reward people and encourage people to drink better how do you actually source new drink better that's right um how do you source new wine or new ingredients new suppliers are people pitching to you all the time? Do they come to the Devonshire and they're like, we have some great scallops from, you know, the following origin at this particular price, or do you go out and try to find them? A bit of both. But I mean, a lot of suppliers, when you do speak to someone, you say, you know, you sure you can do the volume? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Yeah, we're going to need like 3 scallops a week Yeah it not a problem And then you order 3 and they I like you actually do do want 3 000 i like of course i not trying i not not telling you 3 000 to get them 10p cheaper it you know it all about paying the right price a fair price for the best quality and that's what we're about you know if you're trying to drive the price down on everything all the time you're never going to have the best relationship with the people that either are farming it catching it and and giving it to you. Wait, actually, this is really interesting about that relationship. How often are suppliers changing? You know, like when you come to an agreement with a supplier, let's say, okay, you find your scallop provider who can deliver that volume. Do you lock it in? Do you say, okay, we're going to do this for six months? Is it for a week? You come to an agreement, maybe you come to a price. What is the duration of that agreement? I mean, it varies massively. you know the scallops for example it was last week you know the fuel went up and you know I'm gonna have to put you know 30 pence on a scallop listening to the guys on before me you know we listen to those guys so when it comes down again you know fair's fair but I think there are people out there that that take the opportunity and you know exploit that a little bit I would say we like to build relationships that last and mean something and we bring a lot of our suppliers [60:00] to the Devonshire. Most people come and enjoy it as a place to come. And you just hope that you have this really great honesty and integrity with these guys and that everything's fair. Whether you're planning a big tech event, launching a new campaign, or just stocking up on team gear, finding the right promotional products makes all the difference. 4imprint offers thousands of options, from on-trend apparel and premium drinkware to tech, totes, and giveaways, so you can find the right fit for any audience, purpose, or budget. You can customize it all, your logo, your message, your look, and many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point, so you can make a real impact while staying on budget. Plus, you'll get expert help, fast turnaround times, and their 360-degree guarantee. So you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right Whatever your goal 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint 4imprint for certain Okay, not so fun fact. Autoimmune skin conditions are actually on the rise. Cases are climbing nearly 20% every year. I know, terrible opener for a podcast ad. But here's the thing. I'm Holly Frey, and our skin exists precisely because of stats like that. Because more people than ever are living with conditions like psoriasis and hydrodinitis suppurativa, and most of them are doing it alone, without answers, without community, without anyone to tell them what the heck is actually going on. You know, not that many people knew about it, and I felt kind of alone. Like, am I an outcast? That's where we come in. We talk doctors. We talk appointments that are, well, a disappointment. We talk about the flare-ups and the breakthroughs. Then we dive deep into the wild, occasionally gross, always fascinating history of how humans have tried to understand our skin over the centuries. Spoiler alert we did not always get it right Listen to Season 3 of Our Skin a personal discovery podcast on the iHeartRadio app Apple Podcasts or wherever you get your podcasts Got a business problem? There's a TED Talk for that. Stay updated on everything business on TED Business, a podcast hosted by Columbia Business School professor Modupe Akinola. Every week she'll introduce you to leaders with unique insights on work, answering questions like, how do four-day work weeks work? Do will a machine ever take my job? Get some surprising answers on TED Business wherever you listen to podcasts. The bear has taught me that every restaurant is always, you know, one disaster away from absolute chaos and probably bankruptcy and failure. When something does happen, first of all, you have to say whether or not you think the bear is a realistic take on the show if you've seen it. But secondly, when something does happen, like if a supplier fails to deliver or if you expect to get, I don't know, a load of spinach one week and it shows up and it's terribly wilted and you can't use it, what happens? How do you respond to those kind of issues? Generally I mean I let the team deal with most of it It an honest answer but with the caveat that when when i step in or osh steps in or charlie steps in you know it pretty serious and if it repeated there's always going to be mistakes it's how we rectify those and make sure that it doesn't happen again or we minimize that but i always keep a you know keep an eye on the messages that go in between all the the top chefs i call them we've got a group called the top dogs in the kitchen. And you step in when you need to step in. And if I only need to phone the fish supplier or whatever, you know, it's a serious conversation. But it's not, I don't blast them down the phone. It's just like, hey, look, what is going on? And there's often, you know, there's two sides to everything. And, you know, it's just the way it is. In terms of the bell, I've not really got past episode two. Really? That probably says something. Did it hit too close to home? No, I don't know. I think there's one of these things. I mean, it'd be like these guys watching a trading film, you know, or a racing driver watching a Formula One film. It's never going to be 100% as it is. Yeah. But I mean, you've got to make something that people are going to be interested in and watch. And that's going to be sensationalized and it's going to be dramatic. And but restaurants are hard. Pubs are hard. You know, we're in a hard business. Yeah. Do you yell as much as the show? [65:00] It's on the bear. I don't yell, to be honest. It's much better to be silent and, you know. Oh, that's more intimidating. Considered and, you know. Have the gravitas. But I try and do things a different way. Encourage people to, you know. You get young chefs that are a little bit afraid when you're around. I can't compute why. I just want to make them, you know, happy and do a great job, which is what we're all about. All right. I totally believe you that it's no, I I totally believe you that, you know, you want the menu that you want to be accessible to rich and poor and that you want fair relationships or fair agreements, all this stuff you want to be accessible. It's part of the ethos of the pubs in general, et cetera. OK, all that being said, at some there have to be times where, OK, your prices, your suppliers prices go up. So you have to raise menu prices. Right. How do you decide when to make that decision? This is the question that people from the Bank of England might be listening because they're trying to understand about how much inflation pricing power retail establishments have. How do you think about when to make that decision? It's like, you know what, we're going to have to adjust to higher prices. We only done it once on a few things since we opened Yeah We operate slightly We not a massive group We not run by the accounts department We run by giving people the best time What do we think that's acceptable to pass on in it? And it won't be at the rate of inflation. Some things haven't changed. But it's, you know, can we put 50 pence on a side order? You know, it's 10%, but it's 10% over two and a half years. And that probably won't change this year either. how do we become more clever with our purchasing do we need to look at it how can we be more efficient in production how can we waste less you know these are all things how can we look at labor in a slightly different way you know if we make this small change and someone comes we have two people in at six o'clock instead of one at five and one at seven is that more productive when it comes to making bread for example um so it's really not run on that economic side it's more about what are we comfortable charging for that? And we never want to be thought of as expensive or, you know, exclusive or excluding people from coming in. That's interesting. So some of the most important levers you have to offset higher costs don't have anything to do with actually raising menu prices No Talk to us about I don know if you like this label or not but the rise of the gastropub in the UK because it does feel like you have this sort of division now between pubs that are all liquid that don sell food except for bags of like Walker crisps or something And they're not doing very well. They're closing a lot. And then you have the successful pubs and all of them seem to serve food. Yeah, I mean, you know, there's a big range there. I mean, wet-led pubs are really popular. You know, our local is in Soho and it's really busy. It's a great place to go, but it's really kind of old-fashioned in a way. I think the danger is when you have people driving the economics of menus, examples, purchasing departments are dictating to, you know, maybe small, mid, large groups that have, let's say, chefs that run the kitchen with some sort of autonomy. But actually, they're being told what to have. And actually, this comes from a central kitchen. And I do understand it. I'm lucky I don't live in that world. It would be very painful, I'd imagine, and probably not how a real chef would want to do it And I think those things are very difficult because it easy to cut quality cut cost put the price up And none of that that a race to the bottom But I think depending on who those people are and how your little microclimate of a business is it's hard to fight against that when you're just a chef, when you've got a big group and you've got a board and returns, etc. So we're lucky we're not in that at the moment. And we will never be, which is good. And that's the way we focus on why people want to come to us. And that's why we've got 650 people in for dinner, lunch and dinner today. They want to be there. It's the right price. And they have a great time. We make them feel good. Is there a difference between just sort of, you know, conceptually or menu design or anything between, you know, how you think about the business of a true local where it's the same people day in and day out and it's their pub versus a place such as yours where, yes, of course you have regulars, but also you're going to have people who are just only going to be there one time in their life. Yeah. I mean, the one surprising thing with the Devonshire is I thought there wouldn't be this local thing, you know, because it's London, it's busy. You wouldn't see those locals. There are so many locals that come, you know, as part of our inner circle, but then also customers. [70:00] all over the country, from Europe, even Australia. The first place they come when they come here every year, they come to Devonshire. So I consider them a local when they come, you know, when they can only come once or twice a year, they're in as well. And I think it's about a real eclectic bunch of cool people that just want to have a bit of escapism time, you know? Wait, how are the locals getting reservations consistently? because when I told everyone we were going to interview you, the first question they had was, oh, can he get us into the Devonshire? Yeah, it's a bit of a tricky one, this. Well, the best way is to book online. We release tables every Thursday at 10.30 in the morning. We release a whole week's worth in three weeks. But you need to be ready, card ready, etc., etc. If you can't do that, we do take about 100 walk-ins a day, which is quite a lot. So if people are patient, they're polite to the team, they're happy to have a drink, wait 10, 15 minutes. We will take as many people as we possibly can. We hate saying no. So those that persist a little bit more than others, they do get in. We recorded earlier with your co Oishan and he told us to ask you this question And I not sure he thought we were actually going to ask you it or if he meant for us to actually ask you it live on stage but I'm going to give it a go. He said that we should ask you about gifts for the guys from Apple while you were at the Fat Duck. Oh, yeah. Oh, that's a good one, actually. Oishin loves all the stories, right? And I think that's a big part of what we do is about storytelling um i'll come back to that on the menu oh what was it i was in the office one day i was at i was in bray so we have this corner office fat ducks over there hindsight's there the crown's down there and we got a call in from johnny ice uh pa saying listen johnny's just finishing his british holiday he's going back on his private jet we'll be able to buy some food from dinner by heston which was my restaurant in london yeah uh the hinds head and we we serve it on the plane on the way back. And we're like, yeah, why not? Let's do it. So I had about a week and a half. And I thought one of our famous dishes at dinner was, it's called a meat fruit, which is from the 1500s when Victorians used to make meat and fish look like fruit. So when you cut into it it something else So we put a duck liver parfait inside a mandarin jelly And it even had the dimples on and everything the most incredible texture pate but of course it was an orange so i thought it be amazing if we could make an apple and so i went into the development kitchen i had one guy working with me on a day-to-day basis i said look we've got to make an apple in a week and a half and it's going to be served on this plane for johnny ive this is going to be brilliant but as you know apple as soon as you cut into it it discolors the oxidizes so how do you make a really green apple that doesn't taste oxidized or look oxidized anyway we made this thing look like a granny smith with even the air bubbles like the little sort of dots on it and so i sent five oranges and one apple in the middle and i thought this is it he's going to be on the phone going this is brilliant you need to come out see apple didn't hear a word so i'll see him one day i'll remind him maybe one day he'll come on if he ever comes on our podcast yeah but go back to that menu thing yeah when we were doing this you when you construct your menu and you you lay out your stall of your your restaurant and what you want to give people it really important to look at 10 15 things that you really want to drive So there a bakery downstairs you know for the bacon sandwich which is on the bar menu We make the bread we make the bacon we make the butter That's a great little story. And it's not groundbreaking or anything, but most people aren't doing that. So it becomes real. There becomes this value in the storytelling that you're actually doing. It's no good making up fake things that you don't do because you will get caught but yeah it's about what are those stories yeah i can't imagine there are many places making their own butter and making their own bacon you're talking about the designing of the apple and the oranges actually reminded me of a question i wanted to ask in the pub context how much creativity can you have in the food beyond which is like this isn't pub food anymore like is there you know there's so much tradition bound up in the concept of a pub how far can you push how do you think about like pushing what the the edges of what is pub food? It's a real tricky one that because like for me, I grew up in Dorset and pub food was scampi and chips, fish and chips, sausage and mash. That's not what we do at the Devonshire, but we're in a completely different time. You know, food is always evolving. Obviously it's, I think it's about simplicity. It's about quality. [75:00] boldness with hidden things that make things taste good. So for example if you come to the Devonshire and you order the lamb cutlets for example we hang the lamb 14 days so you get really great flavour. The lamb comes from Cornwall beautifully French trimmed and then we take the fat from the bone and then we render that down and then I don't know if it's an American thing or not but it definitely is here. English we have mint sauce with lamb right. Oh yeah yeah. So we take the lamb fat and then we pick mint leaves and then when the lamb fat is cool we add the mint leaves in so it's cold infused you get all the sort of volatile aromas from the mint into the lamb fat and we simply brush that on to the lamb just before serving right so you can imagine it's this fat there's lamb there's mint there's salt and there's a bit of pepper that's it it just looks like a lamb chop but the actual impact of that is so much greater than what you see and feel you know. All right, everyone go see this man for reservations at the Devonshire. Ask for Oshin. Ashley Palmer Watts, that was amazing. Thank you so much. Thanks very much. All right, that was our special two-part episode recorded in London, all about the Devonshire pub. I'm Tracy Allaway. You can follow me at Tracy Allaway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand, Dashel Bennett at Dashbot, Kale Brooks at Kel Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more OddLots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash OddLots. We have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes And you can chat about all of these topics 24 seven in our discord discord if you enjoy Odd Lots if you like it when we talk to publicans then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform And remember, if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening. Thank you. Hi, I'm Molly Graham, host of Work Life, a podcast from TED. The most important lessons about work usually aren't the ones anyone teaches you. They come from experience, from uncertainty, from figuring things out as you go. 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