Author Queeney Says Twisted Wire and Graphene Elevate Cable Tech

作家 Queeney：绞线与石墨烯推动缆绳技术升级 绳索力学从天然植物纤维到碳石墨烯系绳的历史演进，为关键工业突破奠定了基石，并使潜在的太空电梯基础设施成为可能。 本期节目探讨了绳索的发明与演变如何为人类文明提供基础的力学支撑。主持人 Joe Weisenthal 和 Tracy Alloway 与作家 Tim Queeney 一同追溯了绳索的历史，涵盖摩擦力、扭转以及螺旋效应等基础物理机制，以及其悠久的历史渊源（例如距今 5 万年的尼安德特人绳索）。讨论深入探讨了绳索在航海扩张、海战与工业革命中的关键作用，随后梳理了悬索桥所用钢丝绳的技术跨越，并展望了用于太空电梯的碳石墨烯系绳未来。 绳索是支撑滑轮等简单机械运作的底层关键技术，其承重依赖于纤维间表面摩擦力、轴向扭转与向内收缩的螺旋效应，其中三股编织结构是在控制材料成本下最大化螺旋效应的最优解。 (5:00) 人类使用绳索的历史极其久远，考古记录中最古老的实物证据是一段附着在燧石工具上的尼安德特人编织绳索，距今已有约 50,000 年历史，发现于法国东南部。 (10:00) 帆船时代英国皇家海军对绳缆的大量需求推动了造船厂制绳工场的工业化生产；高强度大麻更成为核心战略物资，切断英国的大麻供应链亦是拿破仑 1812 年入侵俄国的重要动因。 (20:00) 德国工程师威廉·阿尔伯特（Wilhelm Albert）在 1830 年代发明了多股铁丝缆绳，消除了采矿链条单点断裂失效的致命风险，该技术随后被约翰·罗布林引入美国并应用于布鲁克林大桥等现代悬索桥建设。 (31:00)

Author Tim Queeney argues that rope is the foundational technology underpinning human mobility, maritime empires, and modern civil engineering, relying on simple helical mechanics that turn weak individual strands into high-strength, fail-safe structures. Structural Mechanics and Deep Prehistory (5:00) Queeney defines rope as twisted fibers—natural, synthetic, or metallic—organized to perform work. Citing an engineering framework from a German specialist known as the "Pope of Rope," Queeney outlines three core mechanical principles: surface friction locking microscopic fiber contours together, axial twist reinforcing that structural matrix, and an inward-collapsing helix effect that constricts tightly like a finger trap under axial tension. A three-strand layout provides the optimal historical balance between helix efficiency and material cost. Because natural fibers decay rapidly, prehistoric cordage rarely survives in the archaeological record, yet physical evidence confirms Neanderthals crafted cordage at least 50,000 years ago, evidenced by a specimen discovered attached to a flint flake in southeastern France. For early hominids, cordage provided essential control over their physical environment, enabling communities to bundle possessions for transport, tether domesticated animals, and secure structural shelters. Maritime Scale and Naval Geopolitics (15:00) Maritime trade transformed rope from a domestic craft into an industrial commodity. Ancient Egyptian and traditional Arab shipbuilders used "stitched boat" methods, threading rope through carved plank grooves to bind hulls before adding internal ribs. By the Western Age of Sail, vessels required vast quantities of rope: large ships required 742-foot anchor roads spun from 1,000-foot raw strands, while 19th-century whaling crews carried over 10,000 feet of line exclusively for chase boats, dousing it in water tubs to prevent friction fires during high-speed pursuits. Queeney notes that some maritime historians credit the British Royal Navy's cordage demands with catalyzing the Industrial Revolution through large dockyard "rope walks." Hemp fiber was a critical strategic asset categorized under "naval stores." Great Britain mandated raw hemp cultivation in the American colonies while depending heavily on imports from the Russian Empire—a strategic vulnerability so pronounced that severing Britain's naval hemp line served as a major catalyst for Napoleon's 1812 invasion of Russia. Transition to Wire Rope and Bridges (31:00) In the 1830s, German mining engineer Wilhelm Albert addressed the problem of rotting natural fibers and brittle iron chains in Harz Mountains mine shafts by twisting iron wires into multi-stranded ropes. Unlike chains, which drop their entire load catastrophically if a single link cracks, multi-strand wire rope provides a gradual failure mode where broken exterior wires signal structural wear well before complete failure occurs. German-born engineer John Roebling studied Albert's technical papers before emigrating to the United States and began manufacturing wire rope in the 1840s. Alongside his son Washington Roebling, he deployed wire rope as the primary load-bearing component in major suspension bridges, most notably the Brooklyn Bridge, demonstrating that twisted-fiber mechanical principles could scale to support massive civil infrastructure. Graphene Tethers and the Space Elevator (33:45) The theoretical modern culmination of rope technology is the space elevator: an equatorial tether extending 100,000 kilometers into space, pulled taut by the centrifugal force of Earth's rotation. The proposed system would permit mechanical crawlers to carry payloads to geosynchronous orbit at 23,000 miles without burning rocket fuel, while releasing payloads from the far end at roughly 17,000 mph to sling them into deep space. While traditional materials snap under their own weight at that length, researchers such as Pete Swan and Adrian Nixon argue that multi-layer graphene could meet the mechanical threshold. A functional space elevator requires roughly 90 gigapascals (GPa) of tensile strength; laboratory tests on multi-layer graphene have registered up to 120 GPa. Queeney highlights that the primary unresolved barrier is manufacturing engineering: fabricating a continuous, flawless 100,000-kilometer graphene tether at industrial scale. From Paleolithic twine to suspension bridges and conceptual space elevators, the core mechanical principle of twisting fibers to distribute stress has remained constant. The technology's future depends on whether materials science can overcome the manufacturing hurdles required to produce continuous, defect-free nanomaterials at planetary scale.

作家Tim Queeney指出，绳索绝非静态原始的简单绑带，而是驱动文明跃迁的基础技术底座；其独特的纤维加捻力学机制支撑了史前定居、造船航行与工业化生产，并奠定了现代大型工程的安全冗余范式。 纤维加捻的物理机制与三股结构 (5:00) Queeney将绳索定义为通过组织加捻纤维来完成物理功的工具。单根孤立纤维的抗拉力极为有限，但加捻工艺通过三重物理机制实现了巨大的力学跃升：第一是微观摩擦力，扭曲使纤维相互挤压并咬合微观凹凸，防止彼此滑移；第二是轴向扭结，加深了结构基质的锁紧；第三是螺旋效应，当轴向拉紧绳索时，螺旋结构向内紧缩自锁，其力学行为类似于受拉收紧的“中国手指套”。 针对绳索的几何构型，德国被誉为“绳索教皇”的行业工程师曾向Queeney解释，历史上绝大多数绳索采用三股排列。尽管工业中也存在四股绳索，但三股结构是在不增加额外原材料成本的前提下，使螺旋自锁收缩效应达到最大化的最优力学平衡方案。 史前起源与早期缝合造船技术 (10:00) 由于天然植物纤维极易腐烂降解，史前绳索极少留存于考古记录中。已知最古老的实物证据是在法国东南部洞穴中发现的距今约5万年的绳索残留，附着于燧石工具上，由尼安德特人制作。相较于直立人长达约150万年基本停滞的石质手斧技术，绳索使早期人类得以捆扎财产运输、拴系驯化牲畜并加固住所，提供了定居与迁徙所需的关键组织与控制能力。 在航海发展史上，古埃及与阿拉伯传统单桅帆船（dhow）采用了独特的“缝合船”建造模式。与西方先设立龙骨和垂直肋骨再铺设外板的工艺不同，早期工匠在木板边缘雕刻V形凹槽，直接穿引坚韧绳索将船体外壳拼缝成型，随后才安装内部肋骨强化。这表明在现代钉连接船体成熟前，绳索直接充当了早期海运航具的结构骨架。 大航海战略需求与绳索工业化生产 (20:00) 进入风帆时代与19世纪商业捕鲸时期，海事扩张对绳索产生了工业级消耗需求。一艘捕鲸船仅供下海追逐抹香鲸的小艇就需要配备超过1万英尺的专用绳索；大型风帆战舰的单根主锚缆长达742英尺，由于纤维加捻会缩短成品长度，工人最初需铺设约1000英尺长的初始股线。为摆脱雨雪天气的限制并全天候供应皇家海军，制绳工艺彻底脱离了家庭手工作坊，搬迁至海军造船厂内极其狭长的室内“制绳工场”（rope walks）。部分海洋史学家认为，这种大规模流水线化生产模式构成了广泛工业革命的早期催化剂。 长纤维大麻是制造高强度绳索的关键原料，在当时与松焦油、桅杆原木一同被英国列为国家安全级战略军资（naval stores）。英国通过殖民地法令强制美洲种植大麻并运回本土加工，以垄断高附加值制造业；而当时全球最顶级的优质大麻主产区位于俄罗斯帝国治下的乌克兰地区。英国皇家海军对此高度依赖，使得大麻成为左右地缘政治的关键筹码，拿破仑在1812年大举入侵俄国的一个核心战略目的便是切断英国皇家海军的大麻供应线。 金属材料跃迁与工程渐进失效机制 (31:00) 19世纪，德国哈茨山脉矿业工程师Wilhelm Albert面对潮湿垂直矿井中天然纤维易腐烂断裂、传统铁链单环锈蚀即瞬间坠毁的生产痛点，研发出多股铁制钢丝绳。他将细铁丝加捻成股，完美复刻了大麻绳的结构体系。钢丝绳的核心安全价值在于确立了“渐进失效模式”（gradual failure mode）——外部个别钢丝破损并不会引发整体突发性灾难垮塌，为检修维护留出了充足的安全预警时间。 德裔工程师John Roebling研读了Albert关于铁质钢丝绳的技术论文后移民美国，于1840年代建立本土钢丝绳工厂，并与其子Washington Roebling将该技术全面推向大型悬索工程。钢丝绳最终作为核心承重受拉构件成功建成了标志性的纽约布鲁克林大桥，完成了建筑工程从刚性受压构件向柔性抗拉构件的关键演进。 前沿材料极限与太空电梯的理论推演 (33:45) 人类利用加捻纤维抵抗拉力的力学探索，最终延伸至“太空电梯”这一理论构想。该设想依托地球赤道约每小时900英里的自转线速度，在赤道固定系绳并向太空延伸10万公里，末端挂载平衡锤；旋转产生的巨大离心力将使系绳拉紧如绷簧。借助这一结构，摩擦轮机械攀爬器可直接攀升至2.3万英里处的地球同步轨道释放载荷而无需化学燃料火箭；系绳末端高达约每小时1.7万英里的旋转线速度更可充当深空引力弹弓，将探测器直接抛向火星或月球。 由于系绳必须抵抗自身巨大重量带来的重力与离心拉应力，系统要求系绳材料具备至少90吉帕（GPa）的抗拉强度，这是传统金属缆索无法实现的瓶颈。前NASA科学家Pete Swan与曼彻斯特大学Adrian Nixon等研究人员指出，多层石墨烯（实验室最高测试达2.6万层原子层）展现出了高达120 GPa的抗拉强度，理论上突破了该材料门槛。但目前该构想仍面临极为严峻的工程转化挑战，即如何在工业尺度上制备出长达10万公里、全长毫无微观结构瑕疵的连续石墨烯晶格缆绳。 本期节目梳理了从史前动植物纤维到现代钢丝绳、再到理论石墨烯系绳的演进脉络，展示了加捻结构如何通过分散应力与消除单点失效构筑文明基石。然而，正如太空电梯面临的工业化制造瓶颈所揭示的，超级受拉材料在实验室尺度上的强度表现，与宏观超长工业制品所需的无缺陷连续生产之间，仍存在难以轻易逾越的工程鸿沟。

## Background 本期节目由彭博社（Bloomberg）于 2026 年 5 月 30 日在各大播客平台发布。节目页面介绍指出，人们往往对绳索习以为常，但它实际上是文明不可或缺的基石——从大航海捕鲸到现代悬索桥皆离不开它；节目邀请了《绳索：一束扭结的纤维如何成为文明的支柱》一书作者蒂姆·奎尼（Tim Queeney），共同探讨绳索的发明史、力学突破以及未来通向太空电梯的演进前景。 ## TL;DR 节目围绕被严重忽视的底层关键技术——绳索展开，探讨了其如何通过加捻扭转、摩擦力与“螺旋效应”将脆弱的单根纤维转化为具备极高抗拉强度的工程工具。从尼安德特人手搓纤维、古埃及与阿拉伯缝合船，到大英帝国皇家海军借由千尺制绳工场和乌克兰大麻供应链推动早期工业化，绳索始终支撑着全球贸易与能源获取。随后，工业革命时期钢丝绳的发明消除了链条的单点失效隐患，促成了布鲁克林大桥等悬索奇迹。而在材料科技前沿，具备超高抗拉强度的石墨烯纳米层压技术，正将绳索的终极构想推向无需化石推进剂的太空电梯与深空弹射。 ## Atmosphere & style 对谈整体充满轻松诙谐的求知欲与宏大的技术哲学意趣。主持人乔与特蕾西以《白鲸》冷知识和演播室徒手甩结等幽默桥段开场，随后在嘉宾蒂姆的生动拆解下，逐步升华为对数万年人类工业演进史的深邃凝视。整场讨论既有硬核力学与地缘政治维度的严谨推演，又洋溢着对太空电梯等未来工程奇迹的浪漫憧憬，带给听众一种重新审视周遭微小工具背后文明厚重感的奇妙震颤。 ## Bulletin - `06:21` 绳索作为文明底层的支撑技术，通过摩擦力、扭转加捻与独特的“螺旋效应”（如同中国手指套原理）将脆弱纤维聚合成高抗拉结构，其中三股绳是力学效率与经济成本的黄金平衡点。 - `15:30` 大航海时代的帆船、捕鲸业与古老缝合船技术均极度依赖高强度绳索，英国皇家海军为保障庞大舰队索具催生了千尺封闭制绳工场（rope walks），成为早期工业化分工的重要催化剂。 - `22:20` 绳索原料兼具高度的地缘政治战略属性，19世纪英国将大麻列为核心海军物资并强制美洲殖民地种植，拿破仑1812年远征俄国的重要战略目标之一便是切断英军来自乌克兰的大麻生命线。 - `31:30` 从天然麻绳到德国哈茨山脉采矿区诞生的钢丝绳，绳索凭借多股绞合带来的渐进失效模式克服了铁链“单环断裂全盘崩溃”的缺陷，直接缔造了包括布鲁克林大桥在内的现代悬索工程奇迹。 - `33:30` 未来太空电梯构想依托赤道自转离心力紧绷长达10万公里的系缆，实验室气相沉积多层石墨烯实测强度已达120 GPa，超越了理论所需的90 GPa门槛，工程瓶颈已转向无缺陷超长缆带的量产制备。 ## Key takeaways - `01:26` 绳索是“底层技术背后的核心技术”，无论是滑轮等经典力学机械的运转，还是支撑早期工业照明与润滑的捕鲸远征，均以前置高强度绳缆为物理前提。 - `04:36` 绳索承载着深刻的社会协作隐喻：单根微观纤维极其孱弱，但紧密扭合后便能爆发出非凡的承载力，正如分散的个体经由社会协作构成强大文明。 - `06:21` 绳索力学的三大基石为表面微观咬合摩擦力、加捻提供的径向压紧力以及宏观受拉时股线向内收缩锁死的“螺旋效应”（Helix Effect）。 - `10:00` 三股绳设计经久不衰的原因在于其以最少股数实现了几何自锁与螺旋效应最大化，达到经济制造成本与力学稳定性的最佳平衡点。 - `10:00` 考古发现最古老的绳索残片出土于法国东南部洞穴，距今约5万年并由尼安德特人搓捻制成，表明绳索很早便是人类打包物资与驯养动物的工具飞跃。 - `15:30` 古代造船技术高度依赖绳索，古埃及与古代阿拉伯水手发明了不依赖铁钉与传统龙骨的“缝合船”（Stitched boat），通过绳索紧密缝合木板维持船体浮力。 - `20:00` 单条深水船用锚缆在加捻合股时收缩率极高，需准备长达1,000英尺的绳股才能产出742英尺的成品，极端空间需求催生了造船厂中长达数百米的室内“制绳工场”（rope walks）。 - `22:20` 韧皮纤维长、抗拉强度高的大麻被列为核心“海军军需品”，其供应链的争夺不仅加深了宗主国对殖民地的农业控制，更是1812年俄法战争背后的关键地缘经济博弈。 - `24:25` 深海捕鲸中的“楠塔基特雪橇”高速拖拽会使缆绳在缆桩上摩擦起火，水手必须持续浇水冷却，且需在抹香鲸深潜（Sounding）时迅速拼接多条备用缆绳以防船只被拖入深渊。 - `26:00` 水手在实战中演化出精密的绳结文化，如可在空中甩出成环、供拖船紧急系泊的“飞行的称人结”，以及用于增加抛缆末端配重投掷的“猴拳结”。 - `31:30` 德国采矿工程师阿尔伯特发明的金属钢丝绳将绳索带入工业时代，其渐进失效机制相较于铁链的单点故障极大地提升了安全度，并由约翰·罗布林等人将其应用到布鲁克林大桥的悬索建设。 - `33:30` 基于地球赤道自转离心力构想的太空电梯，可在23,000英里静止轨道零推进剂释放卫星，并在10万公里末梢以极高线速度弹射深空探测器，彻底规避化学火箭推进剂的质量比限制。 - `35:00` 二维超材料石墨烯具备120 GPa的实测抗拉强度，理论上足以支撑太空电梯的90 GPa最低门槛，现阶段最大瓶颈在于微观气相沉积到数万公里无缺陷连续长带的工程放大。 - `40:00` 绳索具备强大的“林迪效应”（Lindy effect），从原始麻线、合成高分子纤维、工业金属钢丝到碳纳米分子编织，其扭合微观纤维以抵御轴向拉力的物理底层机制贯穿了整部人类技术史。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### `01:26` 隐藏在现代文明背后的关键技术：从捕鲸到滑轮 乔·威森塔尔（Joe Weisenthal）在节目开场抛出了一个他近期经常琢磨的念头：19 世纪中叶那些如《白鲸》（Moby Dick）中所描写的捕鲸远征，究竟耗费了多么惊人数量的绳索。特蕾西·阿洛韦（Tracy Alloway）打趣地问，这一整期节目是不是只是乔为了聊《白鲸》找的借口。乔笑着否认，并分享了自己在调研中发现的冷知识：据说《白鲸》的原型座头鲸名叫“摩卡·迪克”（Mocha Dick），而在当时，“Dick”就像现在的“Joe”一样是个极其普通的普罗大众名字（正如俚语“Every Tom, Dick and Harry”），所以这头鲸鱼的名字实际上相当于“摩卡·乔”（Mocha Joe）。乔还回忆起自己在佛蒙特州布拉特尔伯勒曾常去的一家名为“Mocha Joe's”的咖啡馆，特蕾西则调侃那家店没做成捕鲸主题真是错失良机。乔接着补充道，当时“Dick”这个名字不仅普通，或许还带有一种硬汉、充满男子气概的当代意涵。 玩笑过后，话题转向严肃的经济与技术史思考。正如之前节目探讨钉子的发明如何彻底改变建筑与经济一样，绳索也是一种具有深远连锁效应的技术飞跃。19 世纪的捕鲸业支撑了鲸油照明与蜡烛产业，构成了当时经济的重要支柱，但如果追溯其底层前置技术，没有绳索，人类根本不可能出海捕鲸。特蕾西指出，大家小学时都学过滑轮等简单机械，然而老师却从未点破一个基本事实：如果没有绳索穿过滑轮，滑轮这项技术就完全沦为摆设。绳索实际上是“底层技术背后的核心技术”（the technology behind the technology）。尽管人们习惯认为绳索是某种古老、简单、如同概念集合般的“林迪效应”（Lindy）产物，不过是一束扭在一起的线绳，但纵观历史，绳索的制造工艺和结构设计其实经历了一次又一次重大的技术突破。 - **历史文化隐喻**：赫尔曼·梅尔维尔的名作《白鲸》灵感源于真实存在的巨鲸“Mocha Dick”，在 19 世纪的语境中，该名字相当于现代的普通代称“Mocha Joe”。 - **技术链条的前置依赖**：捕鲸业驱动了早期工业社会的照明与润滑需求，而滑轮则是古典力学的基础工具，但这两者的物理实现均必须以高性能绳索作为底层支柱。 --- ### `04:36` 绳索的广义定义与人类文明的隐喻 为了深入挖掘这段被忽视的技术史，节目邀请到了《绳索：一束扭结的纤维如何成为文明的支柱》（*Rope: How a Bundle of Twisted Fibers Became the Backbone of Civilization*）一书的作者蒂姆·奎尼（Tim Queeney）。特蕾西指出该书的副标题提出了一个极为大胆的论断，蒂姆笑称正因如此大家才需要买书去验证背后的论据。在谈及究竟什么才能被称为“绳索”（Rope）时，蒂姆给出了一个非常宽泛的定义：从最细的线绳、细绳（cordage / twine），一路延伸到工业上重负荷的金属钢丝绳（wire rope），本质上都属于绳索的范畴。简而言之，绳索就是“将纤维扭结在一起，进而用来做功并承载力量的工具”。 近年来市场上涌现了大量以单一物品切入全球史的微观历史著作，例如通过盐、集装箱或鳕鱼来重述人类发展进程。特蕾西好奇绳索能讲出什么其他单一载体无法传达的文明内核。蒂姆解释道，绳索在结构上有着极强的哲学与社会隐喻：单单一根微小的纤维脆弱不堪，几乎承载不了任何重量，也做不了什么事情；但是，一旦你将无数根细弱的纤维紧紧扭绞在一起，它就变成了一种无坚不摧、用处巨大的超级工具。人类文明也是完全相同的逻辑——个体单打独斗能够达成的成就极其有限，但当人类像纤维一样紧密协作、组成集体时，就能创造出非凡的奇迹，而在整个人类历史的长河中，人类正是用绳索将这股集体力量付诸物理实践的。 --- ### `06:21` 绳索力量的物理学密码：摩擦力、扭转与“螺旋效应” 乔提出了一个困惑很多人的物理问题：不论是天然纤维、单根丝线，还是细长的金属细条，它们本身看似平平无奇，为什么只要扭在一起，就能承受惊人的拉力？蒂姆揭示了背后的三大力学支柱：摩擦力（Friction）、扭转（Twist）以及最核心的“螺旋效应”（Helix Effect）。首先是微观层面的摩擦力，当纤维被扭在一起时，它们彼此紧贴，表面的微小凹凸与微观缝隙相互咬合，物理上锁死并阻碍了彼此之间的滑动；其次是扭转本身，扭绞赋予了结构径向的压紧力，迫使纤维以更深、更致密的方式重新啮合。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 绳索承重力学机制 accDescr: 展示从单根微小纤维到承受巨大拉力的三层物理效应递进过程 subgraph Micro["微观层面"] F1["单根分散纤维"] F2["表面微观凸起与凹陷"] F1 --> F2 end subgraph Mechanics["力学组合"] M1["机械扭绞 Twist"] M2["表面咬合摩擦 Friction"] F2 --> M2 M1 --> M2 end subgraph Macro["宏观螺旋效应 (Helix Effect)"] H1["多股螺旋缠绕结构"] H2["轴向受拉伸展"] H3["螺旋向内坍缩收紧"] H4["径向抱紧锁死 / 承载极高负荷"] M2 --> H1 H1 --> H2 H2 --> H3 H3 --> H4 end ``` 为了向播客观众直观展示最为精妙的第三重机制，蒂姆在视频镜头前当场做了一个演示。他拿出一根黄麻（jute）绳缠绕在自己的小臂上，特蕾西调侃这动作看起来像是犹太教佩戴经文匣（tefillin）的仪式。蒂姆解释说，他没有用钉子、胶水或铆钉将绳索固定在手臂上，但只要沿着绳索缠绕小臂的同一轴向用力拉扯，绳子就会死死锁在手臂上完全不动。这背后的秘密就是“螺旋效应”： - **中国手指套（Finger Trap）原理**：就像小时候玩的派对整蛊玩具，手指伸进竹编套筒后往外拉，整个由多个螺旋编织成的网格就会沿着受力轴线径向向内塌陷收缩，越是用力拉扯，它箍得越紧。 - **多股绳索的相互咬合**：蒂姆现场展示的是一根四股天然黄麻绳（他提到历史上绝大多数绳索通常是三股结构）。当外力施加在绳索轴向上时，每一股螺旋缠绕的股线都会向内塌陷，紧紧压迫并锁死其他股线，股与股之间层层抱紧，形成近乎不可逆的极高抗拉强度。 蒂姆补充道，向他系统解释这一精辟力学机制的，是一位在绳索制造工业界享有盛誉的德国工程师，由于其权威地位，业内人士甚至将其尊称为“绳索教皇”（Pope of Rope）。听闻此言，乔和特蕾西不禁大笑，打趣道绳索界竟然也有超级名流，早知如此应该直接请这位“绳索教皇”上节目才对。 ### `10:00` 螺旋效应与绳索的黄金设计：为什么三股绳最经久不衰？ 在解构绳索的基础力学结构时，摩擦力、加捻扭转以及“螺旋效应”（Helix effect）这三者的结合，正是三股绳（Three-strand rope）拥有惊人承载力与稳定性的核心秘密。三股绳之所以成为人类历史上最常见、最通用的绳索形式，原因在于它是能够激发出最大螺旋效应的最少股数设计。如果仅用两股，受力时的几何自锁效果远不如三股；而若增加到四股或更多，生产成本与工艺复杂度便会急剧攀升。因此，三股绳堪称用最低成本实现最高力学效率的“经济学与工程学完美平衡点”。 当被问及历史上是否曾有某个“顿悟时刻”让工匠突然加入新股线或改变编织方式从而发明出跨时代的超级绳索时，蒂姆·奎尼（Tim Queeney）坦言，这一问题在考古学上尚无确切答案。绳索作为人类最古老的工具之一，其起源早已湮没在史前岁月中。目前考古发现的最古老绳索残片出土于法国东南部的一个洞穴中，附着在一块燧石刮削器的背面。令人惊叹的是，这段经捻合处理的植物纤维细绳是由尼安德特人制造的，距今已有约 50,000 年历史。由于天然植物纤维极易腐烂降解，七万年前甚至更早的人类是否制造过绳索已无法考证。 与现代社会技术以年为单位迅速迭代淘汰的快节奏相比，远古时期的技术革新极其缓慢。例如直立人（Homo erectus）在长达约 150 万年的漫长岁月中，主要依靠的几乎就只有“手斧”这一项核心工具。尽管考古学家至今仍对手斧的所有实际用途争论不休，但它长期占据统治地位。而多股绳索的问世，极大拓展了早期人类的行为能力：它首先解决的是最基础的“物资收纳与整合”难题，让流动物品得以打包捆扎携带；随后更被广泛用于圈系和驯化野生动物，彻底改变了史前人类的生活方式。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 三股绳力学稳定机制 accDescr: 展示纤维扭转、摩擦力与几何互锁如何共同构成三股绳的螺旋力学效应 subgraph Geometry["几何与成本平衡"] S["最少股数：3 股"] --> E["经济性最高<br/>制造成本低"] S --> H["几何对称互锁<br/>引发螺旋效应"] end subgraph Physics["力学增益"] H --> F["加捻产生挤压力"] F --> M["纤维间摩擦力激增"] M --> R["高强度三股绳索"] end ``` - **最古老的绳索证据**：在法国东南部洞穴的燧石碎片上发现，距今约 5 万年，由尼安德特人手工搓捻制成。 - **有机材质的考古限制**：天然植物纤维随着时间推移极易腐化，因此难以找到更早时期（如 7 万年前）绳索留存的地质证据。 - **史前技术的漫长停滞**：直立人在 150 万年间基本只重复打磨使用手斧，绳索的发明与其大致处于同一漫长时代或略晚，是人类组织物资与驯养动物的飞跃。 --- ### `15:30` 捕鲸、缝合船与大航海：皇家海军如何用缆绳催生工业革命 时间跨越数万年来到 19 世纪的大航海时代，大英帝国的全球扩张与海洋霸权几乎完全建立在数以万计的帆船与密布其上的绳缆网络之上。以当时高风险的商业捕鲸业为例，单是一艘捕鲸船为配套的小型捕鲸艇（Whaleboat）准备的专用猎鲸缆绳，总长度就超过 10,000 英尺（约合 3,000 多米），这还不包括整艘大帆船维持运转所需的常规绳系。在帆船体系中，用于支撑固定桅杆的“静索”（Standing rigging）与调控风帆起降角度的“动索”（Running rigging），构成了大洋航行中不可或缺的动力与控制核心。 人类利用绳索造船的智慧最早可追溯至古埃及和古代阿拉伯文明，其建造逻辑与西方传统的“龙骨-肋骨-外板”构型截然不同。西方造船是先铺设中央龙骨，以 90 度角安装船肋，最后在外围钉上木板形成船体；而古埃及人和古代阿拉伯水手采用的是惊人的“缝合船”（Stitched boat）技术。工匠在木板边缘凿刻出密集的 V 型凹槽，用坚韧的绳索穿过凹槽将船板严密缝合在一起并死死拉紧，随后才加入辅助肋骨进行加固。换言之，在那个时代，如果没有高强度的绳缆，船只根本无法浮在水面上。 到了 18 与 19 世纪的帆船时代，装备一艘大型主力战舰往往需要长达数万英尺的各类绳缆。面对如此巨大的刚性需求，传统手工作坊式的搓绳行当已无法维系，必须转向大规模标准化量产。英国皇家海军为了保证数百艘军舰随时能够扬帆出海，设立了一系列规模宏大的官方制绳造船厂（Dockyards）。不少海洋史学家甚至据此提出，正是英国皇家海军为满足庞大舰队对索具标准化的海量需求，倒逼了生产流程的机械化与规模化，进而成为点燃工业革命火种的关键催化剂之一。 - **捕鲸业的索具消耗**：仅捕鲸艇配备的追踪系泊绳索就多达上万英尺，要求极高的抗拉与耐海水腐蚀性能。 - **古埃及与阿拉伯缝合船工艺**：不依赖铁钉或传统龙骨系统，而是通过在木板上开 V 形凹槽并用绳索紧密缝合来维持船壳浮力与强度。 - **工业化催化剂**：每艘大型战舰需消耗数万英尺绳索，促使英国海军船坞建立起大规模制绳流水线，有力推动了近代早期工业化分工的成型。 ### `20:00` 绳索的工业化跃迁：制绳工场与千尺巨缆 主持人指出，绳索之所以被称为“文明的脊梁”，核心在于它对航海不可或缺：没有船只就无法想象现代文明，而没有各种规格的缆绳，帆船根本无法运转。这引出了一个技术史问题：炼钢领域有“贝塞麦炼钢法”（Bessemer process）带来跨越式的工业化解锁，绳索是否也经历过类似单点突破，让它从早期的手工搓捻植物纤维一跃成为大规模工业制品？ 嘉宾 Tim Queeney 解释，绳索的进化并不存在单一的飞跃事件，而是一个连续推进的过程——就像绳索本身的延伸一样。最早人们在室外的“制绳场”（rope yard）作业，因为搓捻长绳需要极其开阔的场地；但随着英国皇家海军（Royal Navy）等舰队的需求剧增，工匠们不能再因为下雪或暴雨而停工，必须天天开工制绳，室内生产势在必行。更关键的挑战来自于大型帆船对超长缆绳的需求，尤其是深水抛锚所用的“锚缆”（anchor rode）。一条标准的锚缆需要达到 742 英尺（约 226 米）长。在制绳的最后工序中，多股绳股（strands）经搓捻合股时会明显缩水，为了最终得到一条 740 英尺长的成品缆绳，最初必须使用长达 1,000 英尺（逾 300 米）的原料纤维股。 为了容纳这种超长距离的走绳与绞合工序，各类造船厂中纷纷建起了惊人狭长的封闭建筑——制绳工场（rope walk）。这种设施不仅遍布英国、美国，也迅速扩展到全球几乎所有的海洋与非海洋国家。正是绳索工场的普及，真正将绳索制造推向了工业化，实现了超长、超重型缆绳的规模化量产。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 传统制绳向绳索工场的工业化演进 accDescr: 展示露天小规模制绳到千尺室内制绳工场的转变及其产出 subgraph Background ["需求与局限"] A["室外手工搓捻 (Rope Yard)<br/>易受雨雪恶劣天气中断"] B["皇家海军与商船队急速扩张<br/>每日均有海量缆绳消耗"] end subgraph Facility ["工业化核心设施：制绳工场 (Rope Walk)"] C["室内超长建筑 (长达上千英尺)<br/>风雨无阻连续作业"] D["初段放绳：准备 1,000 英尺原料绳股"] E["合股绞合：多股紧密加捻收缩"] end subgraph Output ["最终战备物资"] F["742 英尺深水船用锚缆 (Anchor Rode)"] end A --> C B --> C C --> D D --> E E --> F ``` - 锚缆生产的收缩率：工匠必须拉直并加捻 1,000 英尺长的绳股，经过密集的扭绞合股后，最终收缩定型为约 740 至 742 英尺长的深水锚缆。 - 空间驱动的建筑形态：正是这种对绳索长度与连续强度的极端物理要求，直接催生了造船厂中长度绵延数百米甚至千尺的标志性狭长建筑（rope walks）。 --- ### `22:20` 帝国命脉：大麻地缘政治与殖民地原料供应链 谈及 19 世纪制绳的原料供应链，Tim Queeney 揭示了绳索背后鲜为人知的战略物资争夺战。当时英国人将核心航海资源归入所谓的“海军军需品”（naval stores），主要包含三大项：用于防水涂层的松树沥青（pitch）、用于制作船桅（masts）的高大松木树干，以及用于制绳的大麻（hemp）。帆船时代绝大多数优质缆绳都由大麻纤维制成，因为大麻植株可以长得非常高，剥离出的韧皮纤维极长，而纤维越长，加捻后绳索的拉伸强度就越高。 英国皇家海军对其大麻供应链时刻保持戒备。当北美还是英国殖民地时，英国议会甚至专门立法，强制并激励美洲殖民地农民大规模种植大麻，将原料纤维源源不断运回英国本土制绳。主持人对此调侃道，这正是经典的帝国剥削模式：让可怜的殖民地劳工输出廉价原生态大宗农产品，而英国本土的绳索厂则垄断了高附加值的制造工序。 更令人惊奇的是地缘政治层面的博弈：当时英国最大的大麻供应地其实是乌克兰地区。1812 年拿破仑远征俄罗斯帝国背后错综复杂的原因之一，正是企图切断英国皇家海军从东欧获取大麻纤维的生命线，以此瘫痪英军造船能力，进而彻底攻陷英国（这一图谋最终化为泡影）。 - 关键海军军需品（Naval Stores）三大支柱：松焦油/沥青（防水填缝）、松木树干（舰船桅杆）、高韧性大麻纤维（缆绳索具）。 - 纤维物理特性与强度的关系：大麻植株高大，其单根韧皮纤维长，在绞合后受力摩擦面积大，抗拉强度远优于普通短纤维。 - 1812 年俄法战争的战略侧面：拿破仑意图实施大陆封锁，切断乌克兰及沙俄地区输往英国皇家海军的大麻绳索原料。 --- ### `24:25` 捕鲸产业的生命线与极速狂飙的“楠塔基特雪橇” 绳索还是获取早期重要燃料资源——鲸油的关键技术基石。Tim Queeney 谈到，最初的捕鲸只是在近岸围捕，但随着沿海鲸群被猎捕殆尽，捕鲸船不得不驶向远洋深海。在这项极其危险的作业中，绳索承载着所有人的身家性命：一旦捕鲸叉（harpoon）深深刺入巨鲸体内，系在叉尾的绳索就必须承受千钧之力。 《白鲸记》（Moby-Dick）描绘了鲸鱼中叉后拖带捕鲸小艇在海面上疯狂狂奔的场景，这一惊险过程被称为“楠塔基特雪橇之行”（Nantucket sleigh ride）。在此期间，绳索在缆桩与滑轮上飞速摩擦甚至会冒烟起火，船员必须不停往绳子上泼水降温，防止绳索烧断或烫伤双手。然而最致命的危险还不是浮于水面的拖拽，而是鲸鱼中叉后选择“下潜”（sound/dive）。如果鲸鱼突然潜入深海，小艇上的水手必须以极快的速度放出足够的缆绳，否则整艘捕鲸小艇会在瞬间被活活拖入深渊。在追踪大型抹香鲸时，多艘捕鲸小艇甚至需要并拢靠近，现场将各自绳桶（rope tubs）里的缆绳迅速打结拼接，以求有足够的长度防止船体被拖沉。 - 摩擦热管理：捕鲸绳索在受重力拉扯并急剧出绳时，与船身摩擦会产生高温，船员必须专人浇水冷却以防缆绳自燃或瞬间断裂。 - 垂直下潜危机（Sounding）：当鲸鱼垂直深潜，其拖曳力远大于水平拉扯，捕鲸船必须具备数条绳索拼接的即时应急冗余。 --- ### `26:00` 演播室打结：飞行的称人结与水手最爱的猴拳结 关于并排捕鲸船在千钧一发之际“拼接两根绳子”的话题，自然引出了打结技术（knots）。主持人 Joe Weisenthal 忍不住抢先抛出两人的底牌：“你最喜欢的结是什么？”同为主持人的 Tracy Alloway 笑着展示电脑屏幕，原来她早在笔记结尾白纸黑字写下了完全相同的问题，结果被搭档半路截胡。 Tim 透露，当他的书定稿时，编辑原本想把一个绳结印在封面上，但他明确拒绝了，直言自己写的是绳索工业文明史，而非一本“绳结专家指南”。不过谈到日常偏好，Tim 表示自己最喜欢打的是“飞行的称人结”（Flying Bowline，又称拖船称人结 Tugboat Bowline）。这种结极其神奇，能在空中甩动加捻瞬间自动成型。当拖船靠近码头或危急时刻需要快速在绳端做个套环套在系缆桩（bollard）上以保住船只时，这种空中快结极其好用，而且展示起来帅气十足。Tim 在狭小的录音演播室现场尝试徒手演示，虽然一度不小心套到了麦克风线缆上，但还是成功打出了利落的称人结套环。 与此同时，Tracy 分享了自己唯一印象深刻的结——“猴拳结”（Monkey's Fist）。Tim 确认这是一种极其经典的重物抛缆结：在细抛缆（throwing line）的末端绑出紧密如硬球的拳头形状，通过增加末端配重，水手便能将轻缆远距离准确抛向码头或其他船只，且绳头能卡在特定孔环中防止脱落，打好之后极其牢固，几乎无法拆解。 - 飞行的称人结（Flying Bowline / Tugboat Bowline）：称人结（Bowline）被称为“绳结之王”，其空中甩打变体能在数秒内于半空中成环，是拖船水手应对突发系泊的实战绝活。 - 猴拳结（Monkey's Fist）：一种外形呈球状的重结，专用于为抛缆增加前端重量与惯性，便于长距离投掷，常用于舰船靠泊引缆。 ### `31:30` 从天然麻绳到钢丝绳：采矿安全与布鲁克林大桥的诞生 从黄麻、大麻等天然有机纤维向金属钢丝的跨越，是绳索技术史上最具决定性的飞跃之一。德国哈茨山脉（Harz Mountains）采矿区的采矿工程师威廉·阿尔伯特（Wilhelm Albert）观察到，矿井中用来提升重物的天然纤维绳索极易受到井下潮湿恶劣环境的腐蚀而断裂；而当时矿工们换用的铁链同样存在致命缺陷——链条遵循“单环断裂即全盘崩溃”的机制，只要其中一个链环锈蚀断开，整批矿料甚至升降机就会瞬间坠入深井。阿尔伯特突发奇想：如果将多股细铁丝像传统麻绳那样绞合在一起，会发生什么？实验取得了轰动性的成功。绞合金属缆绳具备一种“极其温和的失效模式”：即使单根金属丝断裂，整根缆索依然牢固，必须有多股同时失效才会彻底断开。 这项矿井技术的突破很快跨越大西洋。另一位移居美国的德国工程师约翰·罗布林（John Roebling）在一本工业期刊上读到了阿尔伯特发表的论文，深受启发并开始着手研制自己的金属缆绳。到了19世纪40年代，罗布林不仅制造出性能远优于同行的钢丝绳并建立起商业帝国，还将这项技术引入大型土木工程，投身悬索桥的设计与建造。最终，约翰·罗布林与其子华盛顿·罗布林（Washington Roebling）凭借钢丝绳缆索联手缔造了世界工程史上的奇迹——纽约布鲁克林大桥（Brooklyn Bridge）。主持人感叹，直到阅读这本书才恍然大悟：现代壮观悬索桥上悬挂的钢缆，本质上依然是“绳索”这一古老发明的延续，依然依托于通过多股纤维扭绞产生强度的底层力学逻辑。 - **失效机制对比**：铁链为“单点故障”（单环断裂全链失效），而多股钢丝绳具有渐进失效模式，单丝破损不影响整体承载。 - **工业期刊的知识传播**：约翰·罗布林通过阅读阿尔伯特在欧洲发表的技术论文，成功在19世纪40年代实现高强度钢丝绳的商业化量产。 - **经典工程应用**：布鲁克林大桥的承重主缆直接奠基于阿尔伯特与罗布林父子的金属绞索工艺。 --- ### `33:30` 绳索的终极构想：借助离心力的“太空电梯” 在书的结尾，作者将视野投向了绳索技术的终极形态——“太空电梯”（Space Elevator）。尽管普通大众对这一概念知之甚少（每次讲座现场举手听说过的听众往往不足四分之一），但其物理学渊源最早可追溯到19世纪。太空电梯的核心物理机制异常优美：地球赤道表面由于自转正以大约每小时900英里的线速度飞速旋转。如果在赤道地面锚定一根长达10万公里的系缆，并在太空末端系上一块配重块，地球的高速自转就会产生类似“绳子系石头甩圈”的离心效应。外端配重企图挣脱甩离地球，而这根系缆则死死拽住它，从而使整根缆索如同坚硬的钢棒一般绷得笔直。 一旦这种超长张力索建立起来，人类就不再依赖极其昂贵且低效的化石燃料火箭进入太空。工程人员可以借助配备摩擦轮的爬升器（Crawler），沿着系缆平稳爬升至约23,000英里高度的地球静止轨道（GEO）。到达后只需打开货舱舱门将人造卫星推入太空，卫星就能以现成的轨道速度自动留在静止轨道中。若将爬升器一路运送至10万公里末梢，由于该处缆索必须与地球同步绕转巨大的圆周，其线速度极为惊人。只要在缆绳转至精确角度时松开载荷，航天器便可凭借离心弹射直奔月球或深空，全程无需燃烧任何火箭推进剂。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 太空电梯运行与深空投送机制 accDescr: 展示地面锚定站通过系缆连接地球同步轨道与外端配重，实现免火箭进入轨道与深空弹射的过程 subgraph Ground["地面基站"] A["赤道地面锚定站<br>(自转线速度 ~900 mph)"] end subgraph Elevator["缆索与爬升系统"] B["高张力垂直系缆 (Tether)<br>(离心力拉扯呈刚性紧绷)"] C["摩擦轮爬升器 (Crawler)"] end subgraph Deployment["入轨与深空发射"] D["地球同步轨道 GEO<br>(约 23,000 英里)"] E["外端配重区域<br>(100,000 公里处高速旋转)"] F["开门释放卫星<br>(零推进剂直接入轨)"] G["离心释放载荷<br>(弹射飞向月球与深空)"] end A --- B C -->|沿缆攀爬| D C -->|继续上升至末端| E D --> F E --> G ``` - **物理学依据**：借助地球赤道自转惯性与10万公里端部配重的离心拉力，使柔性缆索获得如实心钢柱般的张紧度。 - **入轨高度**：在约23,000英里处直接释放载荷，即可天然匹配地球静止轨道的运转周期。 - **深空弹射能力**：缆绳末梢旋转线速度极高，可在特定发射窗口直接切向甩出探测器，完全摆脱对齐奥尔科夫斯基火箭方程质量比的严苛限制。 --- ### `35:00` 石墨烯材料突破与星际航行的未来愿景 阻碍太空电梯从科幻走向现实的唯一瓶颈，是制造强度足以承受自身巨大拉力的缆绳材料。前NASA火箭科学家、国际太空电梯联盟（ISEC）前主席皮特·斯旺（Pete Swan）与英国曼彻斯特大学的阿德里安·尼克松（Adrian Nixon）等业内专家对此持极度乐观态度。斯旺甚至辞去了联盟职务创办商业公司，誓言“要亲手把这玩意儿造出来”。实现这一宏图的物质基础正是二维超材料——石墨烯（Graphene）。石墨烯通过在铜基底上利用气相沉积法生长碳原子，自然排列成六边形蜂窝网格结构，拥有自然界最强的共价键结合力。尽管单层石墨烯仅有一个原子厚度，但据尼克松介绍，通过气相逐层沉积，目前已可堆叠多达26,000层。 从物理参数来看，建造太空电梯系缆所需材料的抗拉强度门槛约为90吉帕（GPa），而多层石墨烯在实验室中测得的强度已高达120吉帕，力学指标已绰绰有余。当前真正的工程阻碍在于制造工艺：必须实现长达数千乃至数万公里、且不含结构微裂纹与断点的超长连续缆带制造。在节目的尾声，主持人与作者展开了富有哲学意味的幽默对谈：直立人用了上百万年才从打制手斧进化过来，相较于漫长的人类物种史，太空电梯究竟是在我们这一代人、下一代人还是两百年后诞生，在宏观历史上不过是微不足道的“四舍五入误差”；但在个人生命体验中，大家依然热切渴望能亲眼见证电梯升空。绳索不仅是远古智人征服陆地与海洋的基石，更终将成为人类文明扬帆迈向星际空间的不可或缺的技术纽带。 - **材料力学参数**： - 太空电梯系缆理论最低要求：抗拉强度 90 GPa - 气相沉积石墨烯实测抗拉强度：高达 120 GPa - 纳米层压工艺：可沉积堆叠多达 26,000 个单原子层 - **核心工程瓶颈**：从微米级实验室气相沉积向数万公里工业化无缺陷连续长带制造的工程放大。 - **文明演进隐喻**：绳索从旧石器时代的纤维搓捻，历经工业革命的钢索绞合，最终演变至分子级碳纳米编织，贯穿并托举起整个人类技术文明。 ### `40:00` 绳索的技术演进与人类文明的“解锁” 两位主持人从与 Tim Queeney 的对谈中回过神来，深入探讨了绳索技术的宏大时间尺度。人类在过去长达五万年的时间里，仅能用麻线等极简原料制作最原始的绳子，而人类能够以工业化规模制造绳索的历史，在整个地球的地质时间尺度上不过相当于“不到一分钟”。换句话说，人类关于绳索的技术探索才刚刚起步。如果放眼未来的一千年——这段时间在历史长河中同样微不足道——人类借助超级绳索建成太空电梯进入外层空间的想法，听上去完全合情合理。其间 Tracy 还分享了一个走神时的趣事：她在搜索石墨烯时，发现有人在售卖以石墨烯六边形晶格为设计灵感的耳环，虽然并非由真正的石墨烯材料制成，但精美的联锁六边形结构生动呼应了前文中提及的微观结构。 从技术哲学的角度来看，绳索不仅古老、经得起时间考验（具有典型的“林迪效应”，Lindy effect），而且其核心原理在不断被完善并拓展到全新的领域。绳索的基本直觉极其简单却又无比强大：将纤维缠绕在一处，沿着垂直方向或特定方向拉拽时，它就能产生惊人的摩擦力与抗拉强度且纹丝不动。随着人类技术的迭代，材料从早期的黄麻逐步演进到合成纤维、钢丝，未来甚至可能迈向石墨烯，但“将纤维相互扭结以获得耐用结构”这一核心概念的突破始终未变。此外，与链条这类存在“单点失效”（single point of failure）风险的工具相比，绳索的多股结构具有天然的冗余度与容错性。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 绳索技术的材料演进历程 accDescr: 展示绳索从原始天然纤维逐步走向工业合成纤维与前沿纳米材料的发展路径。 A["天然纤维时代<br/>（麻线、黄麻等）"] --> B["金属工业时代<br/>（钢丝绳索）"] B --> C["高分子化学时代<br/>（合成纤维）"] C --> D["前沿纳米时代<br/>（石墨烯太空绳索）"] ``` - **文明的多元基石**：面对“绳索是文明的脊梁，那么细绳/纤维是不是绳索的脊梁”这一套娃式的追问，主持人们调侃道，人类文明有无数的“叔伯姑婶与父母”；诸如捕鲸业依赖绳索，而没有绳索就无法获取鲸油，技术的演进链条环环相扣，每一个重大突破都建立在先行动力之上。 - **孤岛求生的直觉反思**：在聊到技术演进的渐进性时，他们提到了汤姆·汉克斯主演的荒岛求生电影《荒岛余生》（*Cast Away*）。Joe 自嘲表示，如果自己独自流落荒岛，即使拥有大把时间，恐怕也绝不可能无师自通地想到“通过搓合扭结纤维来制作强力绳索”，很可能会落得束手无策的下场，因此像《鲁滨逊漂流记》这样的生存经典确实值得好好研读。 --- ### `43:00` 播客尾声与致谢 在节目尾声，主持人 Tracy Alloway 与 Joe Weisenthal 正式为这期关于绳索史的讨论收尾，并向听众致谢。他们再次推荐了嘉宾 Tim Queeney 所著的《绳索：一束扭结的纤维如何成为文明的脊梁》（*Rope: How a Bundle of Twisted Fibers Became the Backbone of Civilization*）一书。同时，他们也感谢了播客制作团队成员，并呼吁对大宗商品、工业技术史及宏观话题感兴趣的听众订阅彭博社的 Odd Lots 每日简报、加入官方 Discord 社区交流互动，或在各大音频平台留下好评。 ## Notable quotes > `04:36` 将纤维扭结在一起，进而用来做功并承载力量的工具 — Tim Queeney > `04:36` 单单一根微小的纤维脆弱不堪，几乎承载不了任何重量，也做不了什么事情；但是，一旦你将无数根细弱的纤维紧紧扭绞在一起，它就变成了一种无坚不摧、用处巨大的超级工具。人类文明也是完全相同的逻辑 — Tim Queeney > `01:26` 绳索实际上是‘底层技术背后的核心技术’（the technology behind the technology） — Tracy Alloway > `20:00` 绳索的进化并不存在单一的飞跃事件，而是一个连续推进的过程——就像绳索本身的延伸一样 — Tim Queeney > `35:00` 要亲手把这玩意儿造出来 — Pete Swan > `40:00` 人类在过去长达五万年的时间里，仅能用麻线等极简原料制作最原始的绳子，而人类能够以工业化规模制造绳索的历史，在整个地球的地质时间尺度上不过相当于‘不到一分钟’ — Tracy Alloway > `35:00` 相较于漫长的人类物种史，太空电梯究竟是在我们这一代人、下一代人还是两百年后诞生，在宏观历史上不过是微不足道的‘四舍五入误差’ — Joe Weisenthal > `40:00` 如果自己独自流落荒岛，即使拥有大把时间，恐怕也绝不可能无师自通地想到‘通过搓合扭结纤维来制作强力绳索’ — Joe Weisenthal ## Mentioned Joe Weisenthal, Tracy Alloway, Tim Queeney, Mocha Dick, Herman Melville, 《白鲸》（Moby-Dick）, 《绳索：一束扭结的纤维如何成为文明的支柱》（Rope: How a Bundle of Twisted Fibers Became the Backbone of Civilization）, 英国皇家海军（Royal Navy）, Wilhelm Albert, John Roebling, Washington Roebling, 布鲁克林大桥（Brooklyn Bridge）, Pete Swan, Adrian Nixon, 国际太空电梯联盟（ISEC）, 曼彻斯特大学, 《荒岛余生》（Cast Away）, 《鲁滨逊漂流记》, Odd Lots, Bloomberg ## Video description <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true" data-pm-slice="1 1 []">Rope is easy to take for granted. It seems obvious and straightforward. But of course, it had to be invented. Early humans discovered that by twisting fibers around each other, the resulting structure would be something durable and strong. Without rope, all kinds of things aren't possible, from lifting objects into the air to whaling or modern bridges. So how was it developed and what were the big breakthroughs in its history? On this episode, we speak with Tim Queeney, the author of the recent book <em data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="em">Rope: How a Bundle of Twisted Fibers Became the Backbone of Civilization</em>. He walks us through the history of the technology, and its ongoing evolution, including how it might one day allow to build an elevator into outer space.</p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Read more:<br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-25/japan-cablemaker-rout-exposes-cracks-in-ai-infrastructure-rally?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Japan Cablemaker Rout Exposes Cracks in AI Infrastructure Rally</a><br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-05-27/what-to-know-about-huawei-s-new-ai-chipmaking-plan-logicfolding-tech?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Why Huawei&rsquo;s New Chipmaking Plan Has Investors Buzzing</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true">Only <a href="http://Bloomberg.com" data-inline-card="" data-card-data="">Bloomberg.com</a> subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox each week, plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at&nbsp; <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots</a></p> <p data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="paragraph" data-prosemirror-node-block="true"><a href="http://bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">Subscribe to the Odd Lots Newsletter</a><br data-prosemirror-content-type="node" data-prosemirror-node-name="hardBreak" data-prosemirror-node-inline="true"><strong data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="strong">Join the conversation:</strong> <a href="https://discord.gg/oddlots" data-prosemirror-content-type="mark" data-prosemirror-mark-name="link">discord.gg/oddlots</a></p><p>See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.</p> [Source](https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/8a94442e-5a74-4fa2-8b8d-ae27003a8d6b/019909ba-ab60-4975-bbb2-b45900e53a59/audio.mp3?in_playlist=982f5071-765c-403d-969d-ae27003a8d83)

[4:36] Tim Queeney: 将纤维扭结在一起，进而用来做功并承载力量的工具 [4:36] Tim Queeney: 单单一根微小的纤维脆弱不堪，几乎承载不了任何重量，也做不了什么事情；但是，一旦你将无数根细弱的纤维紧紧扭绞在一起，它就变成了一种无坚不摧、用处巨大的超级工具。人类文明也是完全相同的逻辑 [1:26] Tracy Alloway: 绳索实际上是‘底层技术背后的核心技术’（the technology behind the technology） [20:00] Tim Queeney: 绳索的进化并不存在单一的飞跃事件，而是一个连续推进的过程——就像绳索本身的延伸一样 [35:00] Pete Swan: 要亲手把这玩意儿造出来 [40:00] Tracy Alloway: 人类在过去长达五万年的时间里，仅能用麻线等极简原料制作最原始的绳子，而人类能够以工业化规模制造绳索的历史，在整个地球的地质时间尺度上不过相当于‘不到一分钟’ [35:00] Joe Weisenthal: 相较于漫长的人类物种史，太空电梯究竟是在我们这一代人、下一代人还是两百年后诞生，在宏观历史上不过是微不足道的‘四舍五入误差’ [40:00] Joe Weisenthal: 如果自己独自流落荒岛，即使拥有大把时间，恐怕也绝不可能无师自通地想到‘通过搓合扭结纤维来制作强力绳索’

[4:00] How a Bundle of Twisted Fibers Became the Backbone of Civilization [5:00] Tim Queeney: isolated individuals can achieve little, but collectively bound together, they accomplish monumental feats [8:30] Tim Queeney: Pope of Rope [2:00] Joe Weisenthal: technology behind the technology [24:50] Tim Queeney: Nantucket sleigh ride [28:10] Tim Queeney: flying bowline [28:10] Tim Queeney: tugboat bowline [30:00] Tim Queeney: Monkey's Fist [17:00] Tim Queeney: stitched boats [1:00] Joe Weisenthal: Mocha Dick [45:00] Team Michigan

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When you're running a business, the best days are the ones where priorities stay on track. For midsize and large companies, risk can affect multiple parts of the organization at once, from property and liability to cyber and regulatory challenges. At that level managing risk becomes an ongoing discipline At the Hartford the focus is on helping businesses manage risk before it turns into something more disruptive And when losses do happen, that work is paired with insurance coverage shaped by years of underwriting, risk engineering, and claims experience. Learn more at thehartford.com slash risk mitigation. Policies provided by Hartford Fire Insurance Company and its property and casualty affiliates, Hartford, Connecticut. Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Jill Weisenthal. And I'm Tracy Alloway. Tracy, you know what's something I've been thinking a lot about lately, especially like this year, just sort of like something on my mind? Could be anything. Well, probably in everyone's mind, actually, it's not just me. It's just like the extraordinary amount of rope it must have taken for whaling expeditions in the mid-19th century as depicted in a story such as Moby Dick and others. Like just think about how much rope that requires Is this whole episode an excuse for you to talk about Moby Dick It not but it is true But it is No no it genuinely not You know one thing I learned actually in the course of researching this particular topic which happens to be rope the whale that apparently inspired Moby Dick was called Mocha Dick. And also Dick was basically like saying Joe back then. Every Tom, Dick and Harry, right? You hear that. So really, the Moby Dick whale was Mocha Joe. Oh, that's right. You know, it's funny. I used to go to a coffee shop in Brattleboro, Vermont, named Mocha Joe's. Ah, did it have a whaling theme? It didn't, but that's... Missed opportunity. I like the way you did that. Apparently, from what I understand, I also at one point went down this, like, where did this name come from? I think Dick is in Moby Dick even then carried the sort of contemporary connotation. Oh, really? Yeah, it was like sort of like tough. He was a jerk whale? No, like sort of like masculine. Oh, I see. You know, like that it was sort of like that even back then sort of was this sort of that was a masculine name for reasons that one would associate it. I'm not going to say anything else. Oh, that's fine. Anyway, but it's interesting to think you think about the history of technologies, etc. We did an episode on the history of nails and how crucial that was to the economy And you think like here is this one technological breakthrough some like unlock and then it opens up all of these kinds of things So whales were very important for like whale oil and candles et cetera But like what were the technologies that preceded whaling? And you literally could not do it. And of course, that's just one example, but there are all kinds of technologies, things that you do that are economically productive. I remember in school, we learned about like simple machines, like the pulley and stuff like that. But you can't have a pulley without rope. That's true. No, for real. We learned about the pulley when I was in elementary school, but no one bothered mentioning when I was in elementary school that the pulley would have been a useless technology without rope to pull through. That the rope itself is the technology behind the technology. This one's an interesting one because I think when you say the word rope, people think of something, you know, old fashioned, like rope is Lindy, just a bundle of cords, right? But actually, as we are about to discuss, there have been lots of technological breakthroughs in both the way rope is made and also the way rope is designed. Totally. Well, I'm very excited to say we do, in fact, have the perfect guest, someone I've wanted to speak to since last summer, I think, when I came across his work. We're going to be speaking with Tim Queenie. He is the author of the recent book, Rope, How a Bundle of Twisted Fibers Became the Backbone of Civilization. [5:00] a bold claim there, Tim. Hi, guys. Thanks for having me on. Yeah, it's a bold claim, but you know, that's why you have to buy the book and read it and back it up. What is rope? No, seriously. What makes something rope? Well, that's a good question. And people have asked me how you define rope. But for this book, I defined rope in a very broad sense from everything down from cordage, which is thin, small rope or twine or which one to call it that up to heavy duty wire rope made of metal. So it's all rope as far as I'm concerned. And that's sort of how I went in. But basically, rope is twisted fibers that are then used to accomplish work. I definitely want to talk about space rope later on or space elevators, because that's something I was completely unaware of. But before we do just on the book itself. So I'm aware that these single topic books have become something of a phenomenon. So you have people explaining the history of human development through the medium of salt, or the container box or fish cod or whatever But what does rope actually say about civilization or human development that other single object stories maybe miss Well of course rope as we already just talked about is made up of fibers or little strands of fiber. And if you want to talk about it in sort of a thematic way, each one of those individual fibers can't do much on its own. But if you twist them all together, now you have a tool that's immensely useful. And it's sort of like the way a single person can't do all that much on their own, but people working together in groups can accomplish great things, and they often accomplish those great things down through history using rope. So what is it about fiber? So you twist them together. I mean, this is going to sound dumb, but I really never thought about it before even paid attention. But what is it about the property of a strand, the property of a fiber, or even the property of a long metal rod, such that when you twist them together, it becomes very load-bearing. It's a combination of friction, especially with fibers. It's a combination of friction, twist, and something you could call the helix effect. The friction, of course, is just the individual fibers. As they're twisted together, they're rubbing up against each other and engaging those little nooks and crannies of the fiber or engaging with other nooks and crannies on other fibers And so there that friction that stopping it and a certain amount of physical locking in that going on that stopping them from sliding past each other But then you twist it And by twisting them you reengaging those fibers in a new way, even more deeply. And then finally, the last thing is what you might call the helix effect, which is if you were to take a rope and to wrap it around your arm like this. listeners you should go over to the youtube because tim is actually wrapping a rope around his arm it looks a little bit like a tefillin but uh yeah tell us what's going on here for especially for those who are just listening so i'm just wrapping this rope around my arm and i'm not i'm not actually sorry just maybe yeah i'm not actually nailing this to my arm or gluing it to my arm or uh or riveting it to my arm but i'm just putting it on my arm and then if you can't see maybe too well here oh yeah if i pull it on the same axis on which i've wrapped it around my arm, it stays. I've literally done nothing to make this rope stay other than the fact that it's all wrapped around my arm. So what's actually happening here is you have this helix of rope that when you pull on it on that same axis on which it was twisted, the helix collapses. And you might remember those party toys you got when you were a kid where you stick your fingers in both ends and pull on them the so finger trap And what happens is those toys are made up of a whole series of helixes And when you pull on them, all the helixes collapse and they tighten up. And that's what happens with rope, with multiple strand rope. This rope I have right here is actually made of jute. And that's a natural fiber. And this is actually a four strand rope. I don't know if you can see the four strands. Listeners got to watch this on YouTube. This is so much better as a video than just audio because you can see all the jute. The four strands, those strands, and most rope all through history has been three-strand rope. And I'll talk about why that is in a second. But the strands, when you pull on them, the strands all do that helix effect. One strand is wrapped around the other two, three strands, and it's collapsing down on the other three, and so on and so on with all four strands. They're all collapsing around each other. And that's what makes it incredibly strong is this helix effect. And that was actually told to me by a German engineer who works in the industry. And he's so well known that he's called the Pope of Rope. Are there rope celebrities? Oh, we should have had him on instead. Yeah, he's the real celebrity. [10:00] But he told me about this helix effect. And so it's really those three things that the friction, the twisting, and then the helix effect that causes three strand rope to work so well. And three strand, of course, is most commonly made because it's the least number of strands you can use to have this helix effect. So it's sort of the most economical way to get the helix effect at its maximum without having to add more strands, which, of course, can add cost. So three strand is the way to go. So we're talking about the basic design of rope. Walk us through, I guess, the technological breakthroughs when it comes to designing rope. Was there a moment, you know, when the fourth chord was added or I don't know, they were twisted in a different way where someone was like, aha, I have invented the better rope that will now allow us to accomplish some great thing? Well, that's a really good question that I can't answer. And the reason why we can't answer that is because rope is such an ancient human tool that we just don't know when the first multi-strand rope was developed and made. The oldest rope that ever been found is 50 years old And that a piece of cordage that was found on the bottom of a flint flake in a cave in southeastern France And it was twisted by a Neanderthal person 50,000 years ago. And there may indeed have been rope much older than that that was manufactured. But the problem with rope, natural fiber rope, is that it's made of plant material and it tends to rot away. There may be 70,000-year-old rope that was made, but we don't know. One thing that really struck me, and you said this in your book, but these days, you invent a new technology, it feels like, in a year later, it's obsolete, right? And this pace seems to be accelerating. And one thing that I really appreciated from your book is that in the old days, a new technological innovation would come around maybe once every couple hundred thousand and years or a million. I think you make the point that Homo erectus, who I guess were our uncles or something like that, basically had one invention, the hand axe, in a million and a half years, they basically figured out one thing. Like technological revolutions were pretty slow back in the old days. Yeah, that's right. The hand axe, which from what I understand, the people I've talked to archaeologists still aren completely sure what those things were used for But there are so many of those around and they were used for such a long time And in my book I talk about the hand axe and stone tools happening before rope but it's quite possible that they were around contemporaneously with rope, but we have that issue of them rotting away. But once you've developed this multi-strand rope, it now has all these great uses that it can be put to. probably the biggest use for early peoples was just the ability to organize your stuff. You can tie things together in bundles, which sounds maybe a little simplistic for us, but we do the same thing in lots of other ways. We just keep our stuff organized, and they had to do the same thing. And so rope was just a great tool for that, in addition to using it for domesticated animals and being able to keep them in place so they don't run off, and lots of other things. Thank you emotional products makes all the difference 4imprint offers thousands of options from on apparel and premium drinkware to tech totes and giveaways so you can find the right fit for any audience purpose or budget You can customize it all, your logo, your message, your look, and many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point so you can make a real impact while staying on budget. Plus, you'll get expert help, fast turnaround times, and their 360-degree guarantee. So you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right. Whatever your goal, 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match. Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint.com. 4imprint. 4certain. Support for this show comes from public.com. If you're actively involved in your portfolio, you probably catch yourself repeating the same actions. Buying the dip. Manually sweeping idle cash. Putting on a hedge. On public, you can now create AI agents that handle all these tasks on your behalf. Just describe what you want to do in plain English. Like, if the VIX hits 25, buy a put option on the S&P 500. Or, if my cash balance goes above $20,000, move the excess into my direct index. You approve the workflow and your agent handles the rest. [15:00] monitoring the market, watching for your conditions, and executing your strategies exactly as defined. An investing platform driven by your intent, not just your clicks. You can also get full read and write access to your account via the public API. Go to public.com slash market and fund your account in five minutes or less. That's public.com slash market. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., Member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Let's talk about health care for a second. It doesn't always work the way people expect it to. If you've ever waited on a prescription refill or had a hard time getting the care you needed, you know the feeling. The system should just work better for everyone. That's exactly what the people at Optum are trying to do every day. They're a healthcare company linking patient care and pharmacy services and using data and technology to drive the whole system so care is connected, not complicated, for patients and providers. Things like making it easier to get care that looks at the whole person from primary care doctors to mental health support and even in care and then using technology to make sure they all work together Technology designed to help doctors spend less time on busy work and more time with their patients And those prescriptions? Optum is working to bring costs down, save patients money, and make it easier to get refills. Little by little, Optum is helping make healthcare work as one for everyone. Head to business.optum.com to see how. If I could fast forward about 50,000 years. Go for it. or so, Joe started this conversation talking about the importance of rope when it comes to whaling. And if you think about a time period like the 1800s, sort of marked by the expansion of the British Empire, lots of ships sailing around, all covered in rope in one way or another. Lots of ships sailing around. That's like a good description of much of all history. I guess that's true. All right. But you know the kind of ships I mean. how important was being able to manufacture rope at a sort of industrial scale in the 1800s? Because, I mean, we're talking about a lot of rope. I think you have a stat in your book about how much rope it took just to, you know, get a whale. And it was a lot. Yeah, the whaling ships would carry more than 10 feet of rope just for use on board the whale boats that went out to actually hunt the whales not even discussing all the other uses that rope is put to on a sailing ship And as you point out, a sailing ship, which was the premier technology for hundreds of years for crossing oceans, is absolutely dependent upon rope, both for the standing rigging, which holds the masts up, and the running rigging, which controls the sails. Going all the way back to the Egyptians, they had the exact same issue. They had to have rope to keep their boats under control and for them to keep the masts from falling down. And if I could just go back for a second to the Egyptians, very interestingly, different way of building ships than the way a ship was built. For example, for a whaling ship in the 19th century, the way of building ships in the Western world is to put down a keel, then you have ribs that are 90 degrees to that keel, and then you have planks, which cover the ribs, and now you have your hull. But the Egyptians actually did it in a completely different way, and other cultures as well. It wasn't just the Egyptians. They actually stitched their boats together. They took the planks and they cut these V grooves in the planks and they actually threaded rope through these V grooves to either end of the collection of planks and then tightened them up and then they had a hull And they would put ribs in after they stitched these boats together, but the ribs were there just in addition to the rope to hold the planks together. So rope is absolutely essential for a boat even to float in that era. So that's pretty amazing. And as I said, it wasn't just the Egyptians, but also a lot of Arab boat building was done in a similar fashion with stitched boats. But going back to the age of sail, they needed just tens of thousands of feet of rope to equip these vessels. And as you point out, when you have that much rope required, it ceases to be a cottage industry and the whole process becomes industrialized. And the people who really kicked this off were the British with the need to keep their large Royal Navy establishment going at all times and keep all these ships, hundreds of ships available to go to sea. So they had a series of dockyards where they manufactured rope along with other things. And some maritime historians say that it really was the Royal Navy that kicked off the Industrial Revolution because the whole process really needed to be industrialized to make all this rope. Tracy, I jokingly said, oh, ships floating around. But no, this is... [20:00] really a key point here, which is that it is how rope became the backbone of civilization. It is hard to imagine civilization without a lot of boats, and it is literally impossible to imagine sailboats of various sizes without ropes of various things. You know, in steel, they talk about like the Bessemer process. Suddenly, like some sort of unlock. Steel existed before the Bessemer process, but then that unlocked a significant expansion. Was there some breakthrough that allowed for rope to go from one of these things that, oh, let's twist some plant fibers with our hands and maybe wrap them around something to something that could be truly produced at industrial scale? I don't think that there's any one event like that. It was kind of a continuous process, much like rope itself, that went from rope being made outdoors in these rope yards where they would twist the rope because you need a lot of space to do all this twisting to an indoor activity because they no longer could take the time off for when it snowed and rained. They needed to make rope every day to meet the needs, as I said, of something like the Royal Navy. You needed to really produce rope on a massive scale and the needs of something like a large sailing ship where you need to have some very long ropes specifically the longest rope being the anchor road or the rope that you tie your anchor to so you can anchor in deep water that had to be 742 feet long And so in order to make a 742 foot long, in the last part of the process of making rope, when you're putting the strands together, the rope actually gets shorter because you're twisting it, but you have to start out with 1,000-foot-long strands that you're twisting together to make the final rope that ends up being 740 feet long. So you need a huge building to do this. And so these rope walks that were built into various dockyards around the world, it wasn't just the British who were doing this. They were built in the U.S., and all maritime nations were doing this, and even non-maritime nations, because you need a rope for other things. But these rope walks really were the thing that industrialized the process and allowed you to make very long, very big ropes. Can you talk to us about the supply chain that created ropes? So I guess rope in the 1800s was made out of jute or hemp or something like that. Where did that material come from, and how did it get to the dockyards in a place like London Yeah that a great question because it actually was a strategic material There was something called naval stores The British called them naval stores, which was pitch from pine to use for waterproofing. And then the actual pine trees themselves, the trunks to use for masts. And then finally, the hemp that was used to make rope, because most of the rope made during the age of sale is made from hemp fibers because it actually makes spectacularly good rope because you can grow these hemp plants very, very tall. And the fibers that you can strip out of them are very long. And the longer the fiber, the stronger the rope is. These were strategic materials that the Royal Navy, for example, was always looking towards its supply of these materials. When the U.S. was a colony of Great Britain, the parliament actually passed a law that required or asked or prompted American farmers to grow hemp plants so the hemp fiber could be sent back to Britain for use in making rope. The other really the largest supplier of hemp was actually from the area of the Ukraine And that where Britain got most of its hemp from And amazingly one of the reasons why Napoleon for example invaded Russia in 1812 was to there were a number of reasons but one reason was to cut off the hemp supply to the British Royal Navy. So then he could finally get around to it invading Britain, which he failed to do. It's interesting. They made the colonists send the hemp fiber back to Britain, preserving the value. The poor colonists just had to ship raw commodities while the rope yards in Britain got to actually do the premium higher-end value-add, very common pattern in history. Obviously, in a whaling expedition, there's the sale, right? And then there's that, you know, in Moby Dick, they talk about, although apparently he doesn't to use the term, like they called it the Nantucket sleigh ride after you get the hook in the whale and then the whales drag your boats. And then there's the you're like wetting. Someone has to pour water on the rope so that it's not burning their hands. Talk to us about like how big of a breakthrough that was in terms of acquiring this very important fuel. Yeah. Whaling started out with just attacking whales from the shore. But as those whale [25:00] were used up. These whaling ships had to go farther and farther afield to find whales to harvest. And the rope was absolutely essential. The rope had to hold after they sunk in that harpoon. And the famous Nantucket sleigh ride, when the whale's going along the surface and dragging the boat behind it, the one that's really dangerous, though, is if the whale decides to sound or dive. Because then the boat has to make sure that they have enough rope on board to let out enough rope so that they're not dragged underwater. And sometimes whale boats that were following a big whale, the other whale boats would get near them and they would actually combine two lengths of rope that they each had in their rope tubs just to prevent the whale from sounding and actually dragging the boat under. Since you mentioned combining two rope lengths, what's your favorite knot? Oh my God. I was going to ask that same question, but i was saving it for the end i literally have it written down here that's so funny sorry i just thought you know you mentioned combining two robes we've been we've been doing this for so long we always think about this we're morphing into the same person i guess but let's just do it what's your favorite knot well actually but it interestingly enough my editor wanted to put a on the cover initially but we we realized Tracy just showed me on her computer She really did write down word for word She was going to ask what your favorite nod But I gusumped her. I asked it in the middle, even though she was saving it for the end. So this is for both of us. The idea came up to put a nod on the cover, but I said that this is actually not a nod book because I can't actually take credit for being a nod. not expert all right but you must have one let's go but i do have a number of knots that i like and the one that's sort of the most fun to tie is the flying boland the boland that forms in midair it's also called the tugboat bowl and it's great it's it's a very useful not to make it at the last minute if you need to make a boland or a loop at the end of a rope you can actually make it very quickly and then you can throw it around a bollard or something if you're on a tugboat and maybe save the boat. I don't know. But yeah, that's a fun one to show off. I don't know if I can do it here in this closed space. I do need a bit of space. Make the knot. Yeah, let's see. Let's see. While you're doing it, Tracy, do you have a favorite knot? No. I do. I proud that I can tie my shoes I can tie my shoes But you know what my favorite knot is Someone showed a monkey fist Do you know that one No Do you know what a monkey fist is Tim Oh sure Absolutely That for throwing a throwing line Yeah, you can make this ball at the end of the rope, and then you can put it through a loop, and it won't go through. And it's very hard to— What would you use that for? Well, if you're pulling on something, and you wanted to put it through a loop, and you didn't want the rope to slide through a loop. Right. You wanted to get to the end, so you could make sure it's there. Also, it's basically impossible to untie, in my experience. Tim is currently... Okay, let's see if this works. I usually need even more space than this, but let's see if we can get this to work. Try one more time. Oh, that's it right there. Oh, there you go. Even though I tied my microphone cord. It's through my microphone cord. Too much for us. 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Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. Let's talk about healthcare for a second. It doesn't always work the way people expect it to. If you've ever waited on a prescription refill or had a hard time getting the care you needed, you know the feeling. The system should just work better for everyone. That's exactly what the people at Optum are trying to do every day. They're a healthcare company linking patient care and pharmacy services and using data and technology to drive the whole system so care is connected, not complicated, for patients and providers. Things like making it easier to get care that looks at the whole person from primary care doctors to mental health support and even in care and then using technology to make sure they all work together Technology designed to help doctors spend less time on busy work and more time with their patients. And those prescriptions? Optum is working to bring costs down, save patients money, and make it easier to get refills. Little by little, Optum is helping make healthcare work as one for everyone. Head to business.optum.com to see how. So we talked a little bit about maybe there was breakthrough in terms of design and the way you're twisting cords. We don't really know because it was all organic material and it's decayed. But we do know that rope kind of leapt from jute natural fibers to metals to steel and things like that. Talk to us about how important that was when it comes to, I guess, technological advancement in rope. Yeah, there was a German engineer in the Harts Mountains, in the mining region of the Harts Mountains, this fellow named William Albert. And he noticed, realized and knew that a lot of the rope that they were using to haul materials up through mines, up to the shafts of mines, was corroding and breaking the natural fiber rope. And they would also use chains The problem with the chain is that when one link corrodes and breaks the entire chain fails and the material falls But he thought what if I actually used iron and I used lengths of iron and I twisted it together, just like as if it was hemp into multi-stranded rope? And he did that, and it worked spectacularly. And one of the reasons why it works is because if you lose one strand, Once strand breaks, the entire rope doesn't fail. It has a very easy failure mode where it takes multiple strands to break for the wire rope to fail. So it was very useful in that industrial setting. And there was another German engineer who emigrated to the U.S., and his name was John Roebling. and he actually read, there's actually a piece that William Albert wrote in a journal, an industrial journal that John Roebling read and became very interested in making his own wire rope, which he started doing. And his wire rope was superior in the 1840s. And he started a business of making wire rope. And then he got into designing suspension bridges. Of course, he and his son Washington Roebling were responsible for the Brooklyn Bridge They all made up with wire rope Yeah that wild Like honestly it wasn until I read your book that it like dawned on me like that's rope. That's the same thing. I mean, granted, the material is different, but that fundamental idea of the strength through twisting that gave us the Brooklyn Bridge. Yeah, that's right. You end your book with like the future of rope, so to speak, and the idea like maybe rope could one day give us an elevator into space. Space rope. Yeah. Can you explain what that's all about? Space elevator. Yeah, it's great. Whenever I give a talk, I always ask how many people here have ever heard of a space elevator and never more than a quarter of them raised their hands. I'm surprised. I thought more people knew about it. But it's actually a physics idea that goes back to the 19th century. The idea being that any point on the equator of the Earth is moving at 900 miles an hour. So if you were to attach a tether to the earth and then you would extend that tether out into space With a weight on the end a hundred thousand kilometers out Then what would happen would be of course it'd be the same as if you took a piece of rope Like this and I attached a rock on the end of the rope and I twirled around in a circle What would happen to the rope? The rope would go really tight and [35:00] as it was preventing that rock from flying away. So the exact same effect happens here. As the Earth rotates, the weight way out in space wants to fly off into the distance, and the tether is preventing it from doing that. And in the process, that tether becomes bar tight as it was made of steel. And once you have that, you can then put a crawler that uses friction wheels on that tether, and it can crawl up that tether up to, say, 23,000 miles high, which is geosynchronous orbit. And you open the doors to your crawler and push the satellite out, and at 23,000 miles high, it's now in geosynchronous orbit. So you can put things into orbit without using rockets. You could also use this device to send that crawler all the way to the end of the tether at 100,000 kilometers out. And that end of that tether is whipping around at very high speed because it has to describe a much larger circle than the circle of the equator. So it's moving very fast 17 miles an hour You can bring something up to the top of that And if you want to send something to the moon as tether swings around to the only hits the right angle you release it and it goes flying toward the moon without any need for rocketry So it an amazing device that up to now hasn been built because of the one limiting factor, which is how do you build a tether that's strong enough to do the job? Oh, yeah. This is going to be my next question, which is you actually in the book seemed quite bullish on the space elevator idea. And if you go and look up photos of it, it looks very sci-fi, right? It looks kind of out there. But realistically, do you think this is going to happen sometime in our lifetimes? Well, I did speak with two gentlemen who are very bullish about this, a guy named Pete Swan, who's a former NASA rocket scientist. and he was at one point the head of the International Space Elevator Consortium. I don't know if you knew there was such a thing, but there is. A consortium for everything, huh? Yes. And so he and then a fellow named Adrian Nixon, who is associated with the University of Manchester in England, and they are both very bullish about this idea that it can be done and that it will be done soon In fact Pete Swan just left his position with the International Space Elevator Consortium and he starting up a company And he said we going to go out and build this sucker And the reason why it can do this is that there's this material called graphene. It's a very strange material, and the way it's made is very strange. But it's basically carbon that uses gaseous depositation onto a copper substrate. And when the conditions are right, it actually forms these hexagonal rings. They're all interconnected. And those interconnected hexagonal rings use the strongest bond known in nature. But that's only one atom layer thick. Then you deposit it again, and another layer forms, and then another, and another. And you can go to 26,000 layers, as Adrian Nixon told me about. And this tether is incredibly strong. I mean, it's unbelievably strong. You need something that's capable of 90 gigapascals of tensile strength to do this. And this graphene has been tested up to 120 gigapascals of strength. So it's very much capable of doing the job. The biggest drawback is that you have to have, it's a manufacturing drawback You have to be able to make a tether 100 miles long with no brakes So that a little bit of a challenge You know Tracy like when I think about the fact that Homo erectus went 1 million years just like making the hand axe when and then you hear this and it's like whether it happens in our lifetime, our kids' lifetime, their kids' lifetime, that's nothing like in the grand scheme of history, like which lifetime in the next couple hundred years it happens is like truly an irrelevant... It matters to me. I want to see the space elevators. I want to see it too, but for our species, it's truly an irrelevant rounding error. Exactly. And I do think, you know, rope is so crucial to all of these breakthroughs in civilization, being able to sail the seas. Then naturally, it probably is going to be an important technology for getting to other planets and so forth. Tim Queeny, thank you so much for coming on Odd Law. It's a fascinating conversation. I am now convinced by your book's title that Rope is the Backbone of Civilization. Thanks so much for having me. It was really fun. [40:00] thinking about this a lot, that like, we're just getting started here. You know, we're like, 50,000 years of just making the most rudimentary rope out of twine, etc. Humans being able to produce rope at industrial scale, it's like, less than a minute in an earth time, you know what I'm saying? Like, we're just getting started. And honestly, the idea that maybe in the next 1000 years, which is also nothing, by the way, that we might get into space with rope, it seems very plausible to me can i just say i got distracted because i searched for graphene oh yeah someone's making graphene design earrings they have the little like hexagonal stamp on them it's kind of cool no not actually made out of graphene oh like the design yeah the interlocking hexagons that tim was talking about no there is something about rope where we said this in the intro but it's old It's Lindy. But on the other hand, it's continuously being like perfected and applied to different uses. Right. That core intuition, which I had not thought about before, but that core intuition, you wrap it around something. You take one strand and then you pull a cord in the direction perpendicular or whatever with the direction of the thing and it doesn move is really powerful right It really simple but it also really powerful And the idea that then, okay, the game is then to get even more advanced materials, you move past jute, you get to something synthetic, you go to steel, then maybe to graphene. But that core simple fact that when you twist something around something, it becomes very durable is a pretty powerful conceptual unlock. Well, also, it avoids the single point of failure problem that you see in something like a chain. Yeah. Yeah. But here's a question. If rope is the backbone of civilization and cords are the backbone of rope, then are cords the backbone of civilization? Like, how far can you take this? This is the thing which is, and we just have to be humble. It's like civilization has many aunts and uncles. You know what I'm saying? Many fathers and mothers. The string episode coming up soon. No, but you're totally right. Because like I could argue it's like, oh, whales are the, you know, whale oil, but or but you couldn't get there without the whatever it is, like all of these things have various antecedents and then unlocks. Right. And so it's always sort of helpful to understand. I like the history of technology It makes me makes me appreciate everything a little bit more Yeah And I guess how iterative a lot of it tends to be there was um in the book he talks about how what was the movie with tom hanks and he like on an island and he has to cast away yeah and i guess he had to he had to make some rope i forgot it's been a long time since i saw that movie i feel like if i were on an island that wouldn't occur to me like i would like i wouldn't but you'd have a lot of time to think about it, Joe. I bet I would never get there. You do not, oh, I should have twisted the fiber to make the book. I'd be like, how do you do? I bet, like, that wouldn't have. Now, have you read the book, of course, it's different, but had I not read the book, I think I would have been pretty screwed. I guess Robinson Crusoe has to be, like, your next big read or something. I should read that. I should read that. Yeah. Alright, shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts Podcast. I'm Tracey Alloway. You can follow me at Tracey Alloway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Check out Rope, How a Bundle of Twisted Fibers Became the Backbone of Civilization by our guest Tim Queenie. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at CarmenArmand, Dashel Bennett at Dashbot, and Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks. And for more OddLots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash OddLots for the daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all of these topics 24 in our Discord Discord slash OddLots And if you enjoy OddLots if you like it when we talk about rope then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform And remember if you are a Bloomberg subscriber, you can listen to all of our episodes absolutely ad-free. All you need to do is find the Bloomberg channel on Apple Podcasts and follow the instructions there. Thanks for listening. Thank you. With thousands of options, from apparel and drinkware to tech and totes, it's easy to find the right fit for your brand and budget, with standout choices at every price point. And with their 360-degree guarantee, you can be 4imprint certain your order will show up just right, right on time. Explore more at 4imprint.com. 4imprint. 4certain. [45:00] When you're running a business, the best days are the ones where priorities stay on track. 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