Jada Pinkett Smith Traces Public Crises to Childhood Trauma

Jada Pinkett Smith将多起公众危机归因于童年创伤 这位女演员透露，数十年来未解决的创伤和自我厌恶导致了她的婚姻紧张、自杀念头以及公众争议，直到她通过迷幻药疗法获得治愈。 Jada Pinkett Smith回顾了自己的人生轨迹：从父母吸毒成瘾、在巴尔的摩街头贩毒的动荡童年，一路走到应对好莱坞的名利纷扰。她详细讲述了自己与Tupac Shakur之间深厚的纯精神友谊、她与Will Smith婚姻中交织的情感复杂性与外界误解，以及与严重心理健康危机和自杀念头的剧烈抗争。最终，她探讨了内心审视、神圣植物药疗法以及彻底的自我接纳如何帮助她瓦解心理防御机制，走出深切的悲痛，并重新找回个人价值感。 在深陷毒瘾的父母身边长大，让Jada感到自己从未被放在首位，这塑造了她最初的自我价值感。 (2:45) 表演成为了Jada重要的心理宣泄途径，让她得以抒发动荡童年所积压的创伤、痛苦与愤怒。 (9:29) 在巴尔的摩，Jada将贩毒作为实现经济独立和生存的现实手段，周围的街头暴力也随之被视作常态。 (15:02) 在极端街头暴力中幸存并曾被人用枪指着的经历，让Jada对威胁恐吓脱敏，也让她觉得好莱坞的权力博弈应对起来相对轻松。 (21:07) Warren Beatty的建议帮助Jada学会放下街头混迹时养成的戒备姿态，让人们看到她的温暖与魅力。 (25:51)

Jada Pinkett Smith argues that unexamined childhood abandonment forged defensive mechanisms and patterns of martyrdom that fame, wealth, and marriage could not heal. Across her discussion with Steven Bartlett, she maintains that true emotional stability requires dismantling survival-driven armor, confronting internal self-hatred, and surrendering the impulse to manage external perceptions. Childhood Abandonment and the Construction of Survival Armor (2:45) Pinkett Smith explains that parental relationships serve as a child's foundational 'first mirror' of personal worth. Because her mother, Adrienne Banfield-Norris, gave birth at 18 while in active addiction alongside her father, Robsol Pinkett Jr., she internalized a sense of being deprioritized. At age seven, her father explicitly told her his addiction and criminal lifestyle prevented him from parenting her; shortly after, her stepfather Tony abandoned the household due to Adrienne's severe heroin use. These departures entrenched a subconscious belief that she was unlovable. Following the death of her supportive grandmother, Pinkett Smith sought security on the streets of Baltimore, selling drugs at 17 to establish financial autonomy. Surviving an armed robbery in which two assailants held 9mm pistols to her head left her hyper-vigilant and desensitized to danger. Consequently, she carried a rigid, confrontational defense mechanism into Hollywood—viewing entertainment industry power plays as inconsequential 'puppy play' until actor Warren Beatty urged her to lower her guard and permit genuine interpersonal connection. Intimacy, Grief, and the Cost of Unchecked Pride (58:27) Pinkett Smith's relationship with Tupac Shakur, whom she met at the Baltimore School for the Arts, represented an intense platonic and intellectual sanctuary. Although rumors persisted of romance, she clarifies that physical attraction was absent, noting two separate non-romantic kisses that confirmed their bond was purely spiritual. Their shared background allowed them to understand each other's emotional defenses without taking offense during volatile disagreements. However, unresolved pride severed their communication after an explosive dispute regarding Tupac's post-prison lifestyle. Operating under the assumption that Tupac was indestructible, Pinkett Smith refused to initiate reconciliation before he was fatally shot in Las Vegas in 1996. The subsequent trauma of losing Tupac, compounded by the suicide of her close friend Maxine, prompted Pinkett Smith to establish a personal 'deathbed test' to immediately dissolve ego during conflicts with loved ones. Depression, Material Success, and the Surrender to Healing (86:20) Despite external accolades and commercial success, Pinkett Smith experienced chronic emotional crises. In her early twenties, an acute breakdown marked by severe shaking and suicidal ideation forced her onto Prozac and prompted a temporary retreat to a Maryland farmhouse. Cultural stigmas surrounding mental health in the Black community during that period compounded her feelings of isolation. By ages 39 and 40, her depression intensified into constant suicidal ideation, with her daily survival benchmark focused on merely staying alive until 4:00 p.m. She actively scouted fatal drop-offs along Big Sur and Mulholland Drive, intending to stage an accident to shield her children from the stigma of suicide. Pinkett Smith attributes her recovery to a four-day Ayahuasca plant medicine ceremony suggested by her son, Jaden, which illuminated her unconscious cycles of self-hatred and led her to adopt daily spiritual surrender. Relational Divergence, Codependency, and Public Controversy (93:15) Pinkett Smith characterizes her marital discord with Will Smith as a collision of conflicting emotional needs: Will focused on building material security, while she sought presence and emotional processing. Sacrificing her desires to support his ambitions created severe resentment until she realized that personal fulfillment cannot be outsourced to a spouse. This dynamic underpinned subsequent public controversies. During the highly publicized 'entanglement' discussion, she and Will were separated and living apart; she willingly absorbed public condemnation because Will was unready to disclose their separation—a sacrifice her family confronted as severe codependency. Regarding the 2022 Oscars incident, Pinkett Smith states she initially mistook the slap for a comedic routine, denying claims that she prompted the action and attributing Will's reaction to intense accumulated professional strain and unresolved history with Chris Rock dating back to the 1980s. Pinkett Smith frames her ongoing journey as an incomplete process of unlearning lifelong defense mechanisms and navigating complex grief. While she identifies radical vulnerability and spiritual surrender as the foundations of her recovery, the interview leaves open how public scrutiny continues to test her boundaries between genuine self-reclamation and recurrent patterns of martyrdom.

Jada Pinkett Smith在回忆录《Worthy》与对谈中坦陈，其一生在名望与痛苦间的拉扯，本质上源于童年被父母忽视所铸就的“不配得感”与创伤生存模式；真正的解脱并不来自外在成就或婚姻庇护，而在于直面内化已久的自我厌恶，并在心理崩溃与公众审判中学会放下防御、停止扮演“殉道者”。 早期创伤与街头生存机制的建立 (2:45) Jada成长于巴尔的摩，父母在其幼年时期深陷毒瘾，将药物置于抚育之上，导致她缺失了心理学意义上确立自我价值的“第一面镜子”。尽管外祖母Marion Martin给予了关爱与认可，但7岁时生父Robsol明确告知因犯罪与成瘾无法履行父职，随后母亲的第一任继父Tony亦因母亲的海洛因毒瘾而离开。成年人的相继离去，使年幼的Jada将家庭破裂内化为自身“不配被爱”的缺陷。为宣泄压抑的痛苦与愤怒，表演成为她重要的心理出口，她在社区戏剧和TWIGS艺术项目中本能地避开喜剧，专注文艺剧目中的高情绪冲突角色。 外祖母去世后，面对母亲持续的毒瘾危机，17岁的Jada选择走上巴尔的摩街头贩毒，试图通过掌控金钱与权力为自己和母亲建立安全堡垒。高三期间，她遭遇设局抢劫，被两名持9毫米手枪的劫匪抵头威胁，所幸侥幸生还，而抢劫头目数周后因双重谋杀被判终身监禁。极端的街头暴力虽然使她对外界威胁产生心理脱敏，甚至让好莱坞的权力施压显得像“小狗嬉闹”，但也让她铸造起坚硬冷酷的防御面具，直到资深演员Warren Beatty提醒她卸下防备展现亲和力，她才意识到这种生存机制正成为阻碍人际连接的屏障。 灵魂共鸣与傲慢代价：图派克与威尔·史密斯 (28:46) 在巴尔的摩艺术学校求学期间，Jada结识了Tupac Shakur。两人曾两度尝试接吻，但生理层面的排斥证实了彼此之间毫无肉体吸引力，转而发展出一种深厚的情感与智性联结。Tupac在Clinton惩教所服刑期间曾致信向Jada求婚，将其视为唯一的灵魂归宿。然而在Tupac出狱后，两人因其危险的生活方式发生激烈争吵。出于自尊与傲慢，Jada固执地等待对方先行道歉，未料这一架竟成永诀——Tupac于1996年9月在拉斯维加斯遭枪击遇害。失去挚友的剧痛使她确立了“临终法则”，警示自己绝不让自尊阻碍与所爱之人的即时和解。 在与Will Smith相识初期，Jada曾因对方缺乏创伤带来的“厚重感”而误认为其肤浅，后在私人交往中被其庞大的抱负与坚韧所触动。然而两人在婚姻中的核心需求存在严重错位：Will致力于将生活本身打造成宏大的物质与事业杰作，而Jada渴望的则是深刻的情感共振与眼神交流。长年牺牲个人诉求以迎合伴侣蓝图的做法，最终导致她产生强烈的怨恨与自我迷失，迫使她进入剥离外界期待的“流亡之地”重新寻觅自我。 精神深渊：从4点求生到死藤水疗愈 (45:39) 20岁出头时，Jada经历了首次严重的心理崩塌，在驾车途中突发剧烈躯体震颤、恐惧发作与极端的自杀冲动，随后在母亲与好友MC Lyte的陪伴下就医，确诊后开始服用百忧解（Prozac）并接受心理咨询。受当时黑人社群对精神疾病的污名化影响，她不得不对外隐瞒病情，甚至购置巴尔的摩农场作为逃离聚光灯的避难所。然而更深层次的精神危机在39至40岁爆发，即使表面上坐拥好莱坞顶层名利与家庭，她却陷入日复一日的极度抑郁中，每日挣扎的基准线仅仅是“撑到下午4点”。 为避免让子女承受母亲自杀的心理重负，她曾多次在马尔霍兰道（Mulholland Drive）和大苏尔（Big Sur）踩点勘察悬崖与大雾路段，试图将死亡伪装成致命车祸。直至儿子Jaden引介其接触死藤水（Ayahuasca），她在为期四天的仪式中直面了潜意识中长年盘踞的自我厌恶深渊，领悟到内心的求死渴望实则是旧有精神模式的求变呼救。以此为契机，她确立了“臣服”（Surrender）的治愈路径，学会在日常中放下自我执念与全能幻想，向更高力量低头。 “纠缠”风波与奥斯卡耳光的复杂真相 (93:15) 在《Red Table Talk》公开讨论其婚外“纠缠”（entanglement）事件后，公众舆论将Jada塑造成背叛丈夫的背叛者。Jada澄清称，在关系发生期间，她与Will早已处于事实分居状态并各自独立生活；由于Will尚未做好向公众公开分居的准备，她选择主动顶包并吞下公众指责，以此平息外界揣测。这一举动引来母亲与挚友的严肃批评，直指她患有严重的“相互依赖症”（codependency）。这场舆论风暴促使她反思自己习惯性通过承担罪名来平息冲突的“殉道者”心理模式。 针对2022年奥斯卡典礼上的掌掴事件，Jada表示事发瞬间她一度误以为是编排好的喜剧桥段，直到事后才意识到真实的肢体冲突；外界将其翻白眼解读为指使丈夫动手的信号完全脱离事实。她指出，自己当时与Will纯粹以家人身份出席，Will在台上的失控爆发远非单纯出于对她的维护，更多折射出他自身在拍摄电影《解放》（Emancipation）期间积累的巨大心理压力，以及他与Chris Rock自1980年代以来长期累积的复杂私人纠葛。 Jada Pinkett Smith的陈述揭示了外部的极度成功无法抵御内生性精神崩溃的核心事实。不过，访谈中的核心叙述均建立在Jada个人的主观回忆与自我剖析之上，涉及他人心理动机（如Will Smith在奥斯卡现场的深层压力）与私人协议（如分居事实与公关策略）的情节，仍属单方经验叙述，缺乏外部多方视角的交叉印证。

## Background 本期节目于 2023 年 10 月 16 日由知名访谈频道《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）在 YouTube 平台发布，由主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）主持。节目围绕好莱坞女星贾达·萍克特·史密斯（Jada Pinkett Smith）出版的回忆录《值得》（Worthy）展开，深入揭开其光鲜名声背后鲜为人知的阴暗面与救赎历程。 ## TL;DR 贾达·萍克特·史密斯在对话中卸下坚硬防备，首度深度还原了在巴尔的摩毒瘾家庭与暴力街头贩毒求生的惊险过往，以及与传奇说唱歌手图派克·夏库尔（Tupac Shakur）刻骨铭心的灵魂羁绊与遗憾决裂。她坦承了 39 岁时陷入严重慢性抑郁并曾缜密策划伪装车祸自杀的心路历程，同时直面剖析了与威尔·史密斯（Will Smith）婚姻中的自我迷失、“纠缠门”舆论风暴与奥斯卡掌掴事件背后的多重复杂真相。整场对谈最终落在她如何通过萨满仪式打破自我厌恶的恶性循环，以“臣服”姿态放下完美主义与外界认同，重新找回属于自己的内在价值。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场访谈充盈着极致的坦诚、沉静与扣人心弦的情感张力，斯蒂芬·巴特利特兼具洞察力与包容度的倾听方式，为贾达构筑起一个能安全卸下防御的心灵庇护所。对谈在回忆枪口求生时的冷峻坚韧、触碰至亲离世照片时的哽咽失声与温情拥抱之间跌宕起伏，彻底剥离了娱乐圈八卦的浮躁喧嚣。聆听过程宛如见证一颗布满裂痕的灵魂在镜头前平静地自我剖开，既有直面创伤深渊的剧烈震颤，又洋溢着历经融化与觉醒后的宽厚与温润。 ## Bulletin - [19:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1140s) 贾达·萍克特·史密斯在回忆录《值得》与访谈中披露，自己早年因父母严重吸毒曾在巴尔的摩街头贩毒，17岁时遭持枪抢劫被两把9毫米手枪指头，这段残酷经历塑造了她长期随身携带的防卫心理外壳。 - [55:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=3338s) 贾达与图派克·夏库尔（Tupac Shakur）结识于艺术学校并发展出纯粹的精神羁绊，图派克曾在狱中写信向其求婚，但在其遭遇枪击身亡前两人曾因生活方式分歧爆发决裂性争吵，成为她终生遗憾与人际教训。 - [01:25:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5103s) 步入40岁前，坐拥名利与家庭的贾达陷入重度抑郁与慢性不满，曾精心策划将跳崖自杀伪装成交通事故以保护子女免受心理创伤，后通过死藤水萨满体验打破长期的自我厌恶循环。 - [01:36:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5768s) 针对轰动全网的“纠缠门”访谈与2022年奥斯卡掌掴事件，贾达澄清当时两人已秘密分居多年，奥斯卡事件爆发并非由她指使，而是交织了威尔长期的情绪临界状态及与克里斯·洛克数十年的恩怨。 ## Key takeaways - [02:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=165s) 原生家庭毒瘾与亲情缺失在贾达幼年造成了自我价值的核心裂痕，外祖母的花园成了唯一的安全港湾，直至外祖母离世后她走向街头寻求归属与权力。 - [05:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=352s) 7岁时亲生父亲罗布向年幼的贾达坦白自己宁愿做罪犯和瘾君子也无法扮演父亲，这种赤裸的诚实虽让贾达扭曲地感到释然，却对其日后的亲密关系模式造成了深远烙印。 - [07:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=432s) 早期戏剧表演不仅是贾达追求外界认可的途径，更成为她在充满家暴与动荡的家庭环境之外，唯一能够合法释放脆弱与愤怒的情绪排毒通道。 - [25:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1523s) 在巴尔的摩街头为求绝对自立而贩毒的经历让她见识过生死边缘，这一度成为她勇闯好莱坞的硬核铠甲，直到沃伦·比蒂启发她学会适时收起防备、展现多维魅力。 - [30:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1837s) 贾达与图派克·夏库尔之间曾两度尝试接吻却发现完全缺乏生理化学反应，彼此深厚的情感建立在能够平视、深入对方破碎灵魂废墟的纯粹真实与精神共鸣之上。 - [42:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=2570s) 贾达早年因担忧六年长约限制自由而拒绝了《新鲜王子妙爹来》常驻女友角色的试镜邀请，避免了与威尔·史密斯在片场过早纠缠，为日后的结合保留了空间。 - [45:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=2732s) 二十岁出头遭遇的突发精神崩溃迫使贾达正视被压抑的创伤，并打破了当时非裔社群中将心理疾病视为“白人专属”的文化污名，接受百忧解与精神治疗。 - [59:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=3568s) 在图派克去世前与其因生活方式发生剧烈争吵，因自尊心作祟拒绝主动联络，使贾达深刻领悟到傲气在生死面前的无意义，促使她确立起“在临终之床是否重要”的冲突和解准则。 - [01:07:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=4052s) 在极短时间内接连失去挚友图派克与麦克辛，将贾达推向心碎的深渊，但也促使她在痛苦中寻找光明，转化为在脆弱深处与他人建立深层情感联结的能力。 - [01:13:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=4386s) 贾达与威尔在婚姻中的核心冲突源于“爱的语言”的错位：威尔试图用外部现实与物质保障构筑杰作，而贾达渴望灵魂接触与情感陪伴，双方耗费三十年才学会平衡阴阳需求。 - [01:19:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=4756s) 贾达反思婚姻初期的怨恨源于“背离自我”，试图通过全心支持伴侣的巨星梦想来换取情感回报，最终领悟到伴侣无法为个人的快乐负责，幸福只能向内探寻。 - [01:25:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5103s) 39岁陷入慢性不满与自杀危机时，贾达意识到求死欲的本质并非肉体毁灭，而是渴望摧毁深陷自我厌恶恶性循环中的旧有自我与生活模式。 - [01:30:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5443s) 在儿子贾登的引荐下参与的死藤水萨满仪式如同一面明镜，直接照亮贾达潜意识中的自我厌恶，促使她学会彻底交托自我执念的“臣服”修持。 - [01:33:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5596s) 公开“纠缠门”访谈体现了贾达长期在共依附关系中习惯扮演“牺牲自我”的殉道者情结，家人的当头棒喝迫使她走出麻木并建立健康的心理边界。 - [01:36:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5768s) 针对奥斯卡掌掴事件，贾达否认自己对威尔施加操纵，指出该事件交织了威尔在《解放黑奴》高压拍摄后的情绪崩溃以及克里斯·洛克与其数十年的历史过节，并非单一的保护举动。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=0s) 镜头前后的至暗时刻与人生风暴 访谈在一段极具冲击力的快剪中拉开序幕。贾达·萍克特·史密斯（Jada Pinkett Smith）直面剖析了自己曾深陷自我厌恶与绝望的深渊，坦言在那段最黑暗的岁月里，她甚至考虑过结束生命，并且盘算着必须将其伪装成一场意外，以免给孩子们留下母亲自杀的心理创伤。对于公众而言，贾达是功成名就的好莱坞影星，但光鲜表象背后却隐藏着令人震惊的原生家庭与成长轨迹：她的父母双双染上毒瘾，而她自己在巴尔的摩街头成长时，也曾是一名天不怕地不怕的少女毒贩。她曾野心勃勃地认为自己会成为呼风唤雨的顶级女毒枭，直到被设局暗算、被人用两把 9 毫米手枪指着脑袋，那冰冷的枪口才成了将她从亡命边缘唤醒的当头棒喝。 随后，对话触及了近年来围绕她与威尔·史密斯（Will Smith）的一系列公众风暴。谈及奥斯卡颁奖礼上震惊全球的那记耳光，贾达直言自己深知无论真相如何，外界最终都会将矛头指向她；面对“保护是你的爱的语言”这一说法，她审视了那场闹剧究竟算不算爱的表达。而谈到在网络上掀起惊涛骇浪的“纠缠门”（entanglement）对谈，她回忆了与威尔短暂分居后的经历，以及面对母亲和孩子们的质问——“你怎么能把这种事公之于众”时内心的挣扎。旧照的翻开更勾起了她生命中最沉痛的断层：接连失去至亲与至交图派克·夏库尔（Tupac Shakur）的创伤，如同烙印般刻在她构筑至今的坚硬外壳之下。 - 曾制定周密计划试图伪装自杀成意外，只为保护子女免受自杀阴影的伤害。 - 青年时期在巴尔的摩街头贩毒，曾遭遇设局并被两把 9 毫米手枪指头威胁。 - 直面奥斯卡掌掴事件与“纠缠门”访谈引发的家庭质问与全网舆论海啸。 ### [01:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=92s) 主持人致谢与倾听的力量 在深入核心对谈之前，主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向所有长久以来支持《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）的听众表达了由衷的感激。他动情地表示，听众的每一次点击与收听，不仅让他得以实现自己的梦想，也成全了背后整个制作团队的职业追求。对他而言，能够坐在这些经历了非凡人生的嘉宾面前展开深度对话，从解决自身困惑的私心出发去向他们请教、探索生命的答案，是人生中最不可思议的荣幸与特权。 巴特利特同时向观众发出真诚的倡议，指出受众群体简单的订阅动作，恰恰是这档节目能够持续邀请到世界级重量级嘉宾、并不断拓宽探讨边界的核心动力。正是庞大而忠实的社群生态，支撑着团队不断探索更深层、更具社会启示性的对谈内容。 ### [02:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=165s) 破碎之镜：毒瘾父母与自我价值的最初裂痕 对话切入贾达的回忆录《值得》（*Worthy*），巴特利特引用了书中一句深深触动他的文字：“当我探寻自己破碎之心的源头时，正是发现自己在赐予我生命的两个人心中并非第一位，这种感觉在我的自我价值感上撕开了一道裂缝。”贾达深有感触地点头，解释道父母往往是孩子在这个世界上的“第一面镜子”，而她的父母孕育她时实在太过年轻——母亲怀孕时仅有 17 岁，生下她时也才 18 岁左右。极度稚嫩的心智叠加严重的毒瘾，彻底摧毁了本该存在的亲子照料功能。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 原生家庭镜像缺失与价值重构 accDescr: 展示毒瘾父母导致的价值缺失，以及外祖母如何成为替代性镜子重构贾达的自我认知。 subgraph Trauma["原生家庭创伤"] A["父母年少生育 (17-18岁) + 药物成瘾"] --> B["毒品成为家庭第一优先级"] B --> C["情感镜像缺失：无法感知自身重要性与价值"] end subgraph Healing["外祖母的避风港"] D["外祖母介入生活"] --> E["提供正向镜像：照见才华、美与灵性"] E --> F["花园中的短暂安全感"] end C -.->|创伤形成| G["自我价值感产生核心裂痕"] F -.->|力量支撑| G ``` 在贾达漫长的心理疗愈过程中，她逐渐意识到，自己的第一面镜像在某种意义上是“不存在的”，因为在父母的世界里，毒品的优先级永远凌驾于骨肉至亲之上。孩子天然需要从父母眼中确认自身的独特与重要性，而贾达自幼却得不到这种确认。幸运的是，外祖母走进了她的生命，如同在荒漠中升起一面美丽而强大的镜子。直到今天，外祖母的目光依然映照着贾达，让她得以看清自己的美、天赋与潜能。然而巴特利特指出，整部自传字里行间流露着一种挥之不去的孤独感——除了在外祖母的花园里，那个渴望被牵手、被指引的孤独小女孩，似乎从未拥有过真正意义上的“家”。贾达坦言，在外祖母离世后，这种归宿感的彻底崩塌直接将她推向了街头，促使她以最决绝的方式去寻找同类、权力、身份认同、人生意义以及属于自己的价值。 - 母亲 17 岁怀孕、18 岁分娩，过早承担生育压力伴随毒瘾缠身。 - 毒瘾剥夺了父母建立健康亲子镜像的能力，导致贾达幼年形成核心价值感的缺失。 - 外祖母的花园曾是唯一的安全避难所；外祖母去世后，贾达走上街头寻求归属与权力。 ### [05:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=352s) 7岁时的坦白：父亲的缺席与诚实的代价 谈及父亲罗伯（Rob），贾达讲述了一段令人心酸而又荒诞的往事。在她仅有 7 岁的时候，平日里几乎从未在家庭中出现过的父亲带她去散步，平静地对年幼的女儿坦白：“听着，我是个瘾君子，也是个罪犯，我做不了你的父亲。”当时的贾达甚至对“拥有父亲”没有任何概念，因为在她的日常生活里，父亲的角色从始至终都是缺位的。 出人意料的是，7 岁的贾达在那个瞬间感受到的并不是被抛弃的痛苦，而是一种荒凉的感激：“谢谢你对我说实话。”长期处于混乱与失序中的小女孩终于得到了一句真话，证明她感知到的异常并非自己的神经质或疯癫，生活确实出了严重的差错。父亲明确划清界限表示会保持距离。尽管当时的贾达为这份直白松了一口气，但她直到成年之后才逐渐看清，这段幼年遭遇对她往后漫长岁月里与男性的亲密关系模式，造成了多么深远而潜移默化的负面烙印。 ### [07:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=432s) 舞台作为救赎：从戏剧庇护所到情绪宣泄 尽管童年动荡不安，贾达在 10 到 13 岁左右便无比坚定地确立了自己的人生方向——成为一名艺术家和演员。她的舞台生涯起步极早，大约 7 岁时就在芭蕾舞剧《胡桃夹子》（*The Nutcracker*）中出演了波旁夫人的孩子之一，随后接连参加各类暑期戏剧项目。之后，她成功考入专门为巴尔的摩艺术学校（Baltimore School for the Arts）输送人才的预科培训项目 Twigs，艺术自此成为贯穿她整个人生的精神骨架。 巴特利特探究这种对表演的渴望是否不仅是为了寻求掌声，更是一种深层的心理补偿。贾达完全认同这一看法，表演对她而言不仅是价值感的证明，更是不可或缺的“情绪出口”。在现实家庭中，她没有任何宣泄脆弱、痛苦和愤怒的安全空间；而置身舞台之上，她终于获得了表达那些被压抑情感的天然许可。正因如此，她当年总是执着于选择极度沉重、情绪剧烈爆发的悲剧性独白，以至于戏剧老师不得不反复劝说她尝试喜剧角色、拓宽独白的题材广度，试图把这个总在角色中宣泄剧痛的小女孩拉回平衡的轨道。 - 约 7 岁参演《胡桃夹子》，获得人生第一个专业舞台表演机会。 - 通过课后艺术预科项目 Twigs 接受训练，为进入著名的巴尔的摩艺术学校奠定基础。 - 舞台不仅是获得外界认可的途径，更成为她在压抑家庭环境之外唯一的合法情绪排毒通道。 ### [10:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=601s) 身体铭记的创伤：跨越代际的家庭暴力 巴特利特由此联想到心理创伤经典著作《身体从未忘记》（*The Body Keeps the Score*）以及加博尔·马泰（Gabor Maté）博士的创伤理论，强调演戏往往是经历过童年重创与家暴的演员逃避原有身份、重塑自我的终极避难所。他提及自传中令人窒息的细节：贾达尚在襁褓中时，家中就充斥着暴力，有一次父亲罗伯挥拳殴打母亲，母亲在极度惊恐中仓皇逃出家门，甚至失手将婴儿时期的贾达摔落在地上。 贾达透露，这些惊悚的过往并非童年记忆，而是母亲在步入晚年后才向她道出的实情——甚至直到贾达的孩子们快要成年时，母亲才彻底袒露当年承受的家暴惨烈程度，每次提及依然会哽咽落泪。贾达感叹，创伤从不会因为时间流逝而被简单遗忘，人们只是学会了共处与在某种程度上的自我修补。聆听这些血淋淋的真相，不仅让她更深刻地理解了母亲一生的隐忍与痛苦，也让她终于看清了母亲生命轨迹中的创伤烙印，是如何隔代浸染并塑造了当下的自己。童年哪怕是婴儿期所承受的恐惧与动荡，早已无声地沉淀进潜意识与肉体之中，构成了她毕生防御机制的底色。 ### [12:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=720s) 毒瘾阴影下的童年：自我怀疑与父亲的弃权 史蒂文·巴特利特与贾达探讨了童年创伤对自我认知的影响。婴儿具有极其自我中心的心理机制，当目睹父母争吵时，幼童往往会潜意识地认为这一切都是因自己而起，进而形成“自己不够好”的深层执念。贾达坦言，父母对毒品的滥用在她潜意识中刻下了难以磨灭的伤痕：她无法理解，为何冰冷的物质在父母眼中拥有的力量、关注和吸引力会远远超过自己。这种不配得感最直观且残酷的体现，莫过于亲生父亲罗布（Rob）亲口对她说要放弃监护权，理由是他宁愿继续做一个罪犯和瘾君子，也不愿意为了她去整顿自己的人生。贾达在痛苦之余，竟也有一种扭曲的释然——至少他诚实得毫不掩饰，而不是虚伪地扮演一个负责任的父亲。 在罗布之后，贾达母亲的第一任丈夫托尼（Tony）走进了她们的生活。托尼表现得非常稳健可靠，全心全意地给予贾达所需要的父爱与温暖。然而，由于贾达的母亲当时深陷海洛因毒瘾无法自拔，托尼为了拯救自己的人生，最终选择彻底退出她们的生活。成年后的贾达理解托尼当时的无奈之举，因为面对无法沟通的严重毒瘾，人有时只能选择决绝地割席。但这名如父亲般坚实的依靠再次凭空蒸发，给年轻的贾达带来了毁灭性的打击，彻底击碎了她对人性的信任。 - 婴儿期的心理归因机制：目睹家庭破裂与争吵时，本能地将责任揽在自己身上，转化为“我不够配”的自卑感。 - 父亲罗布的坦白：宁愿选择犯罪与吸毒的生活方式，也要正式放弃抚养权，成为贾达心中长久的伤口。 - 继父托尼的退场：尽管尽职尽责地扮演过父亲角色，但因母亲严重的海洛因成瘾而不得不决绝离开。 --- ### [15:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=908s) 投身街头贩毒：渴望掌控命运与绝对安全 托尼的离去让贾达彻底放弃了“依靠任何人”的幻想。为了在这片充满不确定的泥潭中活下去并保护母亲，她毅然决然地走向了街头。在当时的巴尔的摩街区，周围没有律师或医生可供崇拜，真正掌握权力、过着体面生活的是那些开着奔驰、口袋里塞满大叠现金的街头大鳄（Hustlers）。在那个残酷的环境里，女性通常只有两条路：成为一名街头混混，或者做混混的女朋友。贾达绝不甘心依附于男人当配角，她要用自己的双手夺取金钱与权力，亲自构筑绝对的安全感与防御屏障，甚至暗自发誓要成为下一任叱咤风云的街头大毒枭（Queenpin）。 史蒂文指出，“安全”、“保护”与“稳定”这几个词贯穿了贾达整部回忆录的童年与成年时期。外界熟知的贾达是光鲜亮丽的好莱坞女星，极少有人知道她年少时竟在巴尔的摩沦为毒贩。面对史蒂文关于“是否感到恐惧”的提问，贾达表示自己根本没有时间恐惧。当时的巴尔的摩街区宛如交火的前线战场，暴力冲突无时无刻不在爆发，极度戒备与流血冲突构成了日常生活的底色。在外人看来惊心动魄的致命险境，对当年的她而言只是稀松平常的现实。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 街头生存心理机制与行动路径 accDescr: 展示贾达从缺乏家庭安全感到被迫投身街头贩毒的心路历程演变。 subgraph 家庭破裂与创伤 A["父母深陷毒瘾，至亲接连离去"] --> B["彻底丧失对外界依靠的信任"] end subgraph 街头生存驱动 B --> C["追求绝对的自立与防御屏障"] C --> D["效仿街头大亨：金钱、奔驰与枪支"] D --> E["拒绝做混混附庸，立志成为独立女枭雄"] end subgraph 致命现实 E --> F["在巴尔的摩底层公寓窗口开展贩毒活动"] F --> G["暴力常态化：神经高度戒备与无畏心理"] end ``` --- ### [19:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1140s) 枪口惊魂：17岁高三遭遇持枪抢劫 贾达在高中四年级（17岁左右）时遭遇了真正的生死考验。当时她将据点设在一处廉租房项目一楼的公寓内，隔着防盗链门和窗户对外兜售毒品。某天，有人精心设局陷害她。当她正透过门镜向外递送毒品进行交易时，两名藏匿在视线死角的持枪劫匪突然现身，一脚将门踹开。两把9毫米口径的手枪瞬间顶住了她的脑袋，劫匪当场掠走了她所有的现金、毒品库存以及首饰。 贾达回忆，那一刻她与带头劫匪的眼神产生过极短暂的对视，甚至能清晰感受到对方在脑海中权衡是否要当场灭口。仅仅凭借神明的庇佑，劫匪最终留了她一条活命。这绝非虚张声势的恐吓——就在抢劫贾达两周至一个月后，那名抢劫头目便冷血地杀害了另外两名毒贩，将受害者塞进后备箱疯狂扫射灭口，随后被判处终身监禁。当时狂妄无畏的贾达在事发后立刻联系了在背后庇护自己的街头大佬，扬言必须拿回属于自己的财物。那位庇护人深知劫匪底细，几天后安排双方在街区碰头。虽然钱和毒品早已无法追回，但对方确实归还了尚未变卖的几条金项链。 - 案发地点与形式：巴尔的摩廉租房底层公寓，门缝交易时遭两名暗处埋伏的歹徒踹门突袭。 - 劫匪的凶残程度：数周后杀害两名毒贩并将尸体锁在汽车后备箱内乱枪扫射，最终获刑终身监禁。 - 荒诞的当面对质：在庇护人的牵线下贾达竟敢去见持枪劫匪，并直接质问对方为何放过自己。 --- ### [22:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1340s) “你长得太漂亮了”：残酷街头对好莱坞的洗礼 在取回首饰的碰头会上，年轻气盛且毫无惧色的贾达直截了当地问那个杀人不眨眼的凶手：“你当时为什么没有杀我，就把我留在那儿？”对方回答说：“因为你长得太漂亮了。”这是贾达人生中第一次意识到自己也许拥有美丽的外貌。看着眼前这个仿佛一生都从未体会过爱的冷血杀手，贾达如今反思自己当年的疯狂行径，感到既荒谬又后怕——如果换作是自己的女儿身处此情此境，她绝对无法想象。在死亡边缘行走却毫无恐惧，甚至敢与恶狼为伍，让她坚信冥冥之中确实有神在保佑自己脱险。 然而，这段伴随亡命徒度过的血腥青春，却成了贾达未来勇闯好莱坞的硬核铠甲。进入演艺圈后，面对那些自诩高高在上、试图施压操控年轻女演员的好莱坞掌权者，贾达内心毫无波澜，甚至觉得这群人的做派幼稚得如同“小狗过家家”（Puppy play），因为她早已见识过真正取人性命的亡命狂徒。不过，这种在生死场上磨砺出的凌厉棱角（Rough around the edges）也是一把双刃剑：它让好莱坞部分人眼前一亮、觉得耳目一新，但其自带的冷酷与防御性气场，在很长一段时间里也让业内人士感到极具距离感和难以接近。 ### [25:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1523s) 初闯好莱坞：沃伦·比蒂与卸下防备的智慧 刚步入好莱坞时，贾达·萍克特·史密斯（Jada Pinkett Smith）带着一股在街头摸爬滚打磨砺出的强硬姿态。她骨子里抱着一种“爱谁谁，我不在乎”的决绝态度，坚信自己来到这里只是为了展现真实的自己：“我有我的价值，如果你看不到，那是你的损失。”她坦言自己绝非传统意义上那种规矩端庄、矜持文静的年轻女子，而是“粗粝、顽强且闹腾”（rough, rugged and rambunctious）。主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此深有感触地指出，某种特定的心智模式和防备姿态确实能帮人在恶劣环境中存活甚至逆境生长，但当生存威胁解除后，最关键的一步是学会“如何关掉那套战斗模式”。贾达对此完全赞同，因为她当时早已脱离了单纯的生存危机，却依旧紧绷着神经。 在这段转型期中，著名导演兼演员沃伦·比蒂（Warren Beatty）成了改变她心智的关键人物。贾达回忆，比蒂先生是好莱坞第一位以非评判姿态与她交心的人。比蒂温和地对她说：“你现在已经来到好莱坞了，我懂你的防备，但你为什么不试着让大家看到你的另一面？比如你的魅力、你的笑容，把肩膀上那股较劲的刺稍微收一收。”在充斥着“你必须改掉这个、否则你永远拿不到角色”的说教圈子里，比蒂的真诚和尊重显得尤为难得。他没有否定贾达的本质，而是引导她向世界展现更多层次。贾达感慨，比蒂或许根本不知道那次谈话对她影响有多深远——那是她第一次真正听进别人的劝告，并开始思考如何在不丢掉自我的前提下，找到卸下防备的安全感。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 街头防御心智向好莱坞发展的转变过程 accDescr: 展示贾达从底层生存防卫机制，到接受沃伦·比蒂指点后逐步卸下心理重甲的演变路径。 subgraph DefenseMechanism["街头生存默认机制"] A["早期创伤与街头危机"] --> B["建立坚硬外壳<br/>'生人勿近'姿态"] B --> C["自我封闭防御<br/>难以建立深层联结"] end subgraph Catalyst["转折契机"] D["沃伦·比蒂的真诚沟通<br/>不否定本质，肯定多维魅力"] end subgraph Transformation["心智进化"] E["保留自我核心特质"] --> F["学习卸下防备重甲"] F --> G["在安全边界内建立真实联结"] end C --> D D --> E ``` ### [28:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1706s) 坚硬的外壳：“不配被爱”的创伤与自我防御 斯蒂芬将话题引向深层的心理机制：筑起过高的防御壁垒不仅能挡住伤害，往往也阻断了与他人建立真正联结的可能。他引用了贾达在回忆录《Worthy》中的一段锥心记述——当母亲的新任丈夫托尼（Tony）突然离家出走时，曾将对方视作父亲的贾达遭受了灭顶打击：“那种被抛弃的感觉极其残酷，我身体里的某些东西彻底碎了，我的悲伤如汪洋大海。我把它放进一个贴着‘不配被爱’标签的图书馆书架上，试图将它永远尘封在那里。”斯蒂芬敏锐地指出，“觉得自己不配被爱”往往会催生出铜墙铁壁般的防卫，最终演变成一种推开所有人的“自我实现预言”。 贾达对此深表认同，强调自己的冷硬姿态从来不是为了主动攻击，而是纯粹的自我保护。长期的动荡让她将警惕刻进了骨髓，甚至成为一种深入 DNA 的默认行为模式： - **无法掩饰的本能防卫**：即便走到今天，她依然需要时刻觉察并主动调控这种随时准备竖起高墙的下意识反应。 - **被误解的宿命**：这种严丝合缝的情感封锁让她在外人眼里显得高冷而难以接近，也剥夺了她与渴望联结的人深交的机会，导致“被误解”几乎成了贯穿她一生的常态。 ### [30:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1837s) 邂逅图派克：艺术学校里的灵魂共鸣与“最恶心的吻” 谈到与传奇说唱歌手图派克·夏库尔（Tupac Shakur）的相遇，贾达生动地还原了他们在巴尔的摩艺术学校（Baltimore School for the Arts）开学第一天的场景。那时的图派克就已经是个天生气场强大、充满号召力的人物，一进门就俨然是众人簇拥的核心（holding court）。梳着鼠尾辨、打扮时髦叛逆的贾达走进去，心里还在嘀咕“那个顶着个花生脑袋的家伙是谁”。四目相对的瞬间，图派克带着大大的笑容径直向她走来，极其自信地自报家门：“嗨，我是图派克。”这个罕见而有力量的名字和毫不怯场的领袖气质瞬间击中了贾达，两人自此形影不离，仿佛前世就已相识。 外界往往很难相信正值青春年少的男女之间能维持纯粹的柏拉图式友谊，但贾达幽默地揭露了两人曾尝试越界的尴尬事实： - **后院门廊的尴尬一吻**：他们曾在贾达家后廊认真探讨过彼此之间是否有爱情火花，贾达催促说“行吧派克，亲我一下试试”。结果那个吻极其灾难，贾达形容那是两人经历过“最恶心、最反胃的吻”，亲完后双双触电般弹开，互相嘲笑对方是个笨蛋。 - **丹尼莫拉监狱的再度尝试**：后来贾达前往纽约丹尼莫拉（Dannemora）的克林顿惩教所探望服刑的图派克时，两人再次尝试亲吻，结果同样尴尬地发现彼此完全缺乏身体上的化学反应。 贾达总结道，他们的感情超越了肉体欲望，拥有极致的情感与智识亲密。由于共同生长于相似的残酷街头，他们能够轻易绕过对方厚重的防御壁垒；即使彼此脾气火爆、爆发激烈争吵，也因为完全懂得对方的创伤语言而不会心生芥蒂。在她看来，或许是上帝的刻意安排让肉体吸引缺席，才成全了这段坚不可摧的灵魂羁绊。 ### [35:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=2114s) 图派克为何无可替代：“与你感同身受”的真实与叛逆 当斯蒂芬问及年轻时是否预见到图派克能取得日后那般震古烁今的成就时，贾达坦言，她当年就坚信图派克注定会做出一番非凡的事业，只是未曾料到他会化身为影响全球文化的精神图腾。深入剖析图派克的独特魅力时，贾达给出了一个极具穿透力的词——“融入你”（joining you）。图派克从不居高临下地对人说教，而是能与听众平视并并肩而立。 贾达感性地阐释道：“他会坐进你破碎的心灵废墟里，从那里对你说话，因为他自己就经历过、活过那份心碎。”无论听众内心是痛苦还是狂怒，他都能精准地穿透那些情感层面，在最幽暗的角落与人产生共鸣。除了极高的智商与过人天赋，图派克最无可替代的特质在于他毫无保留的纯粹与本真（authentic）： - **毫不掩饰的全身心倾注**：他不搞迎合潮流的商业噱头，而是将自己的智慧、恐惧、剧痛、愤怒、同情与理解一股脑儿赤裸裸地呈现出来。 - **敢于直面代价的叛逆**：他的真实带有一种毫不妥协的锋芒。斯蒂芬补充道，在崇尚迎合的社会里，极致的真实往往意味着走向从众的反面，必定伴随着沉重的代价；而图派克正是一个用生命践行真实的叛逆者。 ### [38:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=2286s) 真实与脆弱的力量：图派克（Tupac）的多面共鸣 贾达（Jada Pinkett Smith）与主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）深入探讨了图派克·夏库尔（Tupac Shakur）在说唱界乃至整个文化圈独树一帜的根本原因。贾达指出，图派克既能成为底层社区的激昂代言人，又能退回到内心深处极度脆弱、布满伤痕的隐秘角落——比如歌曲《Dear Mama》所传达的那种痛楚，引发了无数人的强烈共鸣。在此之前，几乎没有任何音乐人能以这种方式对大众说话。他能在激进而硬核的《Ambitionz Az a Ridah》、满含心碎与脆弱的《So Many Tears》，以及深沉反思的《A Soldier's Story》之间自由切换，从各种截然不同的维度击中听众的内心。 斯蒂芬指出，这种特质正是“真实性”（Authenticity）的明证，因为人本来就是多维度的，没有谁只是一幅单一的面孔。然而在当时的说唱乐坛，行业规则极其狭隘，给嘻哈歌手设立了刻板死板的套路。正因如此，那些敢于袒露多面真实自我、展露脆弱的人，反而成了世界上最能引发大众共鸣的存在。贾达撰写回忆录《Worthy》也是在做同样的事情：撕下外界由他人编织的狭隘叙事，将自己立体、复杂的全貌呈现在读者面前。 --- ### [39:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=2380s) 初识威尔·史密斯：被误判的“不够深刻” 斯蒂芬将话题引向贾达搬到洛杉矶后的早期演艺生涯。当时她身兼三份工作，艰难地在好莱坞向上攀爬，就在那时她遇到了因《新鲜王子妙爹来》（The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air）声名鹊起的威尔·史密斯（Will Smith）。在大众眼里，威尔英俊帅气、魅力四射，但贾达坦言，自己最初对威尔完全不感冒，甚至觉得他根本不是自己的“菜”。 面对斯蒂芬“是否觉得他太软弱”的提问，贾达解释称并非因为他“软”，而是因为他看起来“不够深刻”（didn't seem deep）。贾达在书中剖析了自己当年的心理误区：在一个充满创伤的环境中长大，年轻的她曾荒谬地将“身陷麻烦、满身伤痛的坏小子”等同于“深沉”，而把生活健康、看起来不麻烦的威尔误判为肤浅。直到多年后，两人在共同好友杜瓦恩·马丁（Duane Martin）的引荐下，在杰瑞熟食店（Jerry's Deli）以及烤土豆店（The Baked Potato）共进晚餐深入交流，贾达才彻底打破了“以貌取人”的偏见，看到了威尔截然不同的一面。 - **威尔的真实特质**：那场谈话让贾达发现威尔不仅极具野心、怀揣征服世界的宏大抱负，更拥有罕见的快乐与踏实（grounded）。 - **极度聪明与跨界适应力**：贾达感叹威尔是一个能从贫民窟（the hood）自如步入白宫、在任何阶层与环境中都能立足并如鱼得水的人。 --- ### [42:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=2570s) 拒演《新鲜王子妙爹来》与命运的转折 两人的初次相遇发生在一场试镜中。大约在剧集开播第二年，20岁出头的贾达前往试镜威尔的戏中女友，却因身高太矮被剧组当场拒绝（“你太矮了”）。从试镜办公室出来时正好撞见进门的威尔，威尔热情地打招呼，而贾达只是干脆地回应自己太矮、准备打道回府。不久后，威尔甚至专程飞往北卡罗来纳州见贾达，诚挚邀请她以常驻主演（Series Regular）的身份出演自己的屏幕女友。 令所有人意外的是，贾达果断拒绝了这一大好机会。斯蒂芬直呼这是个极其大胆的拒绝，毕竟在一部热门黄金档美剧里拿到常驻角色是无数演员梦寐以求的跳板。贾达解释了自己的顾虑：她当时刚结束情景喜剧《不同的世界》（A Different World）的拍摄，在那部戏里有导演黛比·艾伦（Debbie Allen）作为保护伞支持她的发展；而当时的电视网合同往往一签就是六年长约，演员会被彻底锁死。她渴望拍电影，不想失去自由。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 贾达拒绝出演剧集与后续人生命运走向 accDescr: 展示贾达在面对《新鲜王子妙爹来》常驻角色邀请时做出的选择及其引发的深远连锁反应。 subgraph Choice["职业抉择"] A["威尔·史密斯飞往北卡罗来纳<br/>邀请贾达出演常驻女友角色"] --> B{"贾达的决定"} B -->|"担忧6年长约锁死<br/>渴望进军电影圈"| C["拒绝常驻邀请"] B -.->|"好友杜瓦恩·马丁劝说<br/>'这是财务保障，怎能放弃？'"| D["坚守个人直觉"] end subgraph Outcome["长远命运轨迹"] C --> E["避免在戏中过早纠缠与冲突"] E --> F["保留彼此神秘感与成熟空间"] F --> G["日后正式相恋并步入婚姻"] G --> H["迎来杰登与薇洛<br/>成为特雷的继母"] end ``` 好友杜瓦恩·马丁曾严厉质问贾达为何要放弃摆在眼前的财务保障，贾达却无比庆幸自己当年的决定。她笃定地表示，如果当时接下了那个角色，两人天天在片场混在一起，看清彼此所有的缺点与危险信号（red flags），日后绝不可能走到结婚这一步，更不会生下儿子杰登（Jaden）、女儿薇洛（Willow），也不会成为特雷（Trey）的继母，整个人生轨迹都将彻底改写。 --- ### [45:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=2732s) 二十岁出头的突发崩溃与心理健康危机 斯蒂芬将话题转入贾达二十岁出头遭遇的重大心理危机——一场毫无预警的“个人地震”。贾达回忆道，心理学与精神健康在当时极其落后，大众缺乏基本认知。崩溃发生的那天，她正开着车，看到街角的一位女性朋友，正掉头准备打个招呼。前一秒还一切如常，下一秒身体便不可抑制地剧烈颤抖，如同情绪山洪与火山同时爆发，恐惧、愤怒与绝望吞噬了理智。朋友惊愕地问她怎么了，她大脑一片空白，只能挣扎着把车靠边停下，任凭泪水崩溃倾泻，脑海中疯狂回荡着“我想死”的念头。 强撑着开车回到家后，陷入绝境的贾达拨通了母亲的电话，哭喊着：“你快来，我要自杀了。”贾达坦言，母亲当时才刚刚戒毒戒酒大约一年，并在一家医院找到了新工作，接到这样的求救电话对母亲而言是极度恐怖的打击。由于母亲无法立刻赶到，贾达极度害怕独自一人，恐慌自己真的会对生命下手，于是拨通了好友、知名女说唱歌手 MC Lyte 的电话。MC Lyte 立刻飞赴洛杉矶陪伴在她身边，守护她直到母亲赶来。 - **身心的强行干预**：贾达事后领悟到，那是身体与潜意识在向自己发出最后通牒：“够了，不能再强撑着假装一切都好（keep it moving）了，你必须正视头脑深处被压抑的创伤。” - **族裔与心理健康的文化污名**：贾达指出，在20世纪90年代的文化认知中，心理疾病被普遍认为是“白人专属的问题”，黑人社群默认自己绝不会得心理病，更不可能有自杀倾向。这种认知让她陷入更深的恐慌与自我怀疑，以为自己彻底疯了。 - **求医与药物治疗**：长期扮演防守者与“硬汉”角色的代价终究到来——“你要么主动解决它，要么它来解决你”。最终贾达在建议下去看了精神科医生，被诊断并开具了抗抑郁药物百忧解（Prozac），正式开启了心理治疗与疗愈之路。 ### [51:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=3066s) 隐匿痛苦与重返巴尔的摩 贾达·萍克特·史密斯（Jada Pinkett Smith）回顾了自己在面对心理崩溃时的本能反应：她对核心圈子之外的人严密掩盖自己的真实状况，态度坚决到近乎偏执。在她看来，“这就是我们的生存法则——无论发生什么，继续往前走”。她看了医生，服用了百忧解（Prozac），并告诉自己既然已经在做该做的事，就绝不能让外界看出一丝破绽。在那个年代，公开承认“我抑郁了，需要休息一下”不仅不可想象，甚至会被视为彻底的荒谬。大家习惯了在裂痕上粉饰太平，硬撑着往前走。 为了远离洛杉矶的窒息感，贾达决定搬回巴尔的摩。她并不打算放弃演员工作，只是不想再常住洛杉矶。她在当地买下了一座占地大约六到九英亩的小农场，渴望在属于自己的安静角落里重新构筑生活。当时她的计划十分简单：若有试镜，就去纽约或者临时飞往洛杉矶。 就在她装修巴尔的摩房子的期间，威尔·史密斯（Will Smith）突然联系了她。当时威尔刚刚收到前妻雪莉（Sheree Zampino）送达的离婚诉讼文件。那时的贾达对婚姻全无概念，误以为结束一段婚姻就像和男朋友分手一样简单。电话里，威尔直截了当地问她在哪里、在干嘛，听到贾达说自己在巴尔的摩翻修房子且处于单身状态时，他霸气宣告：“很好，那你现在在跟我交往了。”这种极其大胆的追求方式让贾达有些措手不及。威尔让她一回洛杉矶就联系他，随后两人便在洛杉矶迎来了第一次正式约会。 ### [55:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=3338s) 莱克斯岛监狱中的求婚信 与此同时，图派克·夏库尔（Tupac Shakur）正面临牢狱之灾。他最初被关押在臭名昭著的莱克斯岛（Rikers Island），随后被移送至丹尼莫拉（Dannemora，即克林顿惩教所）。史蒂芬提到丹尼莫拉通常是关押恐怖分子的地方（包括涉及世贸中心爆炸案的相关人员），而贾达则感慨，虽然丹尼莫拉关押着重刑犯，但那里的条件实际上远比莱克斯岛人道得多。贾达回忆起前往莱克斯岛探望图派克时的惨状，当时图派克的状态糟糕透顶，那段回忆至今仍让她感到极度痛苦。 在莱克斯岛服刑期间，图派克给贾达寄来了一封长信，向她正式求婚。他在信中写道： > “如今我跌入低谷，整个世界都与我为敌，虽然少数人声称爱我，但你再次证明了你的爱。在深刻的反思与精神觉醒之后，我终于意识到，那位朋友、挚爱与灵魂伴侣一直都在。我从未在任何地方、任何人身上见过或感受过你对我展现出的那种炽烈与忠诚。这就是为什么我想向你托付终身，我想娶你。” 这段回忆让贾达情绪剧烈波动，仿佛探监归来不得不留下他那一幕就发生在昨天。她解释道，自己目前正处于人生中非常脆弱和敏感的“融化期（thaw out）”，正在逐步卸下自己多年筑起的心理防线。谈及近期终于有涉案嫌疑人因图派克谋杀案被捕（该男子此前曾接受街头采访承认当时人在车内），贾达表示感到欣慰，但也希望能借此解开更多当年未解的谜团。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 图派克与贾达的情感转折 accDescr: 展现图派克在莱克斯岛狱中写信求婚，至二人因生活分歧爆发决裂的脉络。 subgraph Prison["狱中阶段 (Rikers Island)"] A["图派克身陷囹圄<br/>境况极度恶劣"] --> B["狱中反思与觉醒<br/>寄出深情长信"] B --> C["认定贾达为灵魂伴侣<br/>正式提出结婚"] end subgraph Conflict["决裂与遗憾"] D["图派克出狱后进入危险生活圈"] --> E["两人就其生活状态<br/>爆发毁灭性大吵"] E --> F["贾达坚守自尊与面子<br/>拒绝主动致电和解"] F --> G["误以为对方不可战胜<br/>成为此生最后一次交谈"] end Prison --> Conflict ``` ### [59:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=3568s) 致命的争吵与未竟的告别 贾达透露，在图派克去世前，两人其实已经很长时间没有讲话了，这成了她一生中最深刻的教训。当时他们爆发了有史以来最严重的一场争吵，争论的核心正是图派克出狱后的生存状态与生活方式。贾达极其严肃地向他表明立场，直言他当时的处境与混迹的环境绝不可能带来好结局。 两人的情绪彻底失控，针锋相对。争吵过后，贾达被自尊心和傲气所蒙蔽，暗下决心：“去他的，这次我绝不会主动给他打电话，必须由他先打给我，他实在太过分了。”贾达坦言，她潜意识里把图派克当成了“不可战胜”的存在，因为图派克此前经历过无数常人无法想象的风暴却都顽强挺了过来，她理所当然地以为他会永远活着。然而，那次争吵竟然成了他们之间的最后一次通话。贾达感叹道，回过头看，那些所谓的傲气和争执在生死面前根本“毫无意义”；这也成了她如今对待人际关系的硬核准则：每次与重要的人发生冲突时，她都会问自己“这件事在我的临终之床上还重要吗？”，如果答案是不重要，她会立刻主动给对方打电话。 ### [01:02:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=3760s) 拉斯维加斯的噩耗与永恒的哀伤 大约一年后，图派克在拉斯维加斯遭遇枪击。当时贾达正在片场拍戏，接到了图派克母亲阿芬妮·夏库尔（Afeni Shakur）打来的电话，告知图派克在医院处于昏迷状态。当时大家都抱有乐观的希望，阿芬妮甚至安慰贾达不用着急赶来，图派克会好起来的，建议贾达先去处理纽约的行程，随后再赶去医院探望，当时他的未婚妻和家人也都守在病榻旁。 然而，当贾达正启程准备去见他时，她的好友芬恩（Fawn）出现在门口。一看到芬恩脸上的表情，贾达瞬间明白——图派克已经不在人世了。 现场展示了一张两人早年在洛杉矶共度感恩节的合影，照片里两人宛如亲兄妹。贾达看着照片动情地确认：“我们看起来确实像亲兄妹，因为我们本就是彼此的兄妹。”当被问及该如何去哀悼这样一位生命中至关重要的人时，贾达坦言，自己至今仍未学会如何面对这种悲伤，她依然在摸索与悲痛相处的漫长道路上。 ### [01:04:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=3866s) 悲痛的照片：接连失去 Tupac 与 Maxine 史蒂文·巴特利特拿出一张从贾达新书第 12 章中找到的照片递给她。当贾达看清画面时，瞬间泪水涌出，哽咽着向史蒂文索要纸巾。史蒂文走上前给了她一个温暖的拥抱，贾达平复情绪后轻声感叹：“你的拥抱真温暖。”这张照片之所以触动极深，是因为照片中紧紧依偎在她身旁的两人，正是她人生中最重要的挚友——图派克·夏库尔（Tupac Shakur）与麦克辛（Maxine），而这两人竟然在极短的时间内接连离世。 对贾达而言，图派克如同亲生兄弟，而麦克辛则像她的亲姐妹。贾达与麦克辛相识于电影《杰森的抒情诗》（Jason's Lyric）的片场，两人迅速成为无话不谈的挚友。麦克辛原本居住在加拿大，怀揣着到好莱坞闯出一片天地的梦想，贾达便慷慨地邀请她搬来洛杉矶与自己同住。然而悲剧却悄然降临，家人推测麦克辛当时遭遇了严重误诊，可能是某种甲状腺疾患引发了剧烈的精神异常与心理失控。在病痛与心智受损的折磨下，麦克辛最终从母亲家的阳台上跃下自杀身亡。 - **照片背景**：照片中贾达被图派克与麦克辛左右簇拥，两人在贾达二十多岁时相继离世，成为她一生难以愈合的创伤。 - **结识渊源**：贾达在拍摄 1994 年电影《杰森的抒情诗》（*Jason's Lyric*）时结识麦克辛，并支持她前往好莱坞发展、一同生活。 --- ### [01:07:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=4052s) 与上帝和解：痛苦作为与他人深度联结的纽带 史蒂文指出，面对亲友自杀身亡的人往往背负着沉重的“复杂哀伤”（complicated grief），陷入“如果我当时做了某事”、“如果我换一种方式对待他们”的悔恨与内疚之中。他谈到自己在此前的访谈中，很多嘉宾（例如博佐玛·圣约翰 Bozoma Saint John）都经历过类似的诀别时刻——在最后一次通话中为了设立界限而挂断电话，紧接着便传来了噩耗。贾达坦言，看着麦克辛这样一个充满阳光与快乐的人被疾病彻底摧毁，会让人陷入巨大的存在主义幻灭感。在那段日子里，她不得不艰难地与上帝“讲和”：“哇，上帝，你真的会给人安排这种磨难”，在巨大的哀恸中努力去直面命运并达成和解。 史蒂文反思道，贾达出身于巴尔的摩街头，命运虽然赋予了她辉煌的事业与家庭，却也让她在年轻时就承受了极其密集的人命丧失；而他自己成长环境不同，二十多岁时从未经历过同龄好友的离世。贾达回应说，尽管这些经历极其痛苦，但正是这种深切的失去，赋予了她一种能够在精神深处与他人“相遇”的能力。例如，在说唱歌手尼普西·哈塞尔（Nipsey Hussle）遇害后，他的遗孀劳伦·伦敦（Lauren London）陷入绝境。正因为贾达切身体会过失去图派克的痛苦，她才能主动走近性格同样筑起高墙的劳伦，一次次陪伴在她身边，给予毫无保留的理解与支持。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 创伤与转化的双重路径 accDescr: 展示了心碎如何将人打破，并带来走向黑暗深渊或走向光明纽带的两种截然不同的选择。 subgraph BrokenOpen["心碎时刻"] A["经历重大创伤与痛苦<br/>（Heartbreak & Loss）"] --> B["灵魂被彻底砸开<br/>（Breaks You Open）"] end subgraph TwoPaths["选择的路径"] B --> C["沉沦深渊<br/>（Wells of Darkness）"] B --> D["通往光明<br/>（Wells of Light）"] end subgraph Connection["生命转化"] D --> E["在痛苦中寻找祝福与智慧"] E --> F["在深刻脆弱中与他人相遇<br/>（建立真正深刻的情感联结）"] end ``` 贾达总结道，心碎是一个将人“彻底击碎并敞开”（breaks you open）的契机，此时人往往面临两条深渊一般的道路：一条坠入无尽的黑暗，另一条通往深邃的光明。在两边都逗留过之后，贾达彻底明白自己绝不能困死在黑暗之中，因此她选择将心碎、不满与伤痛作为指南针，去寻找深埋其中的恩典与深层联结。 --- ### [01:13:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=4386s) 光鲜外表下的精神破产与“爱的语言”冲突 史蒂文转向贾达自传序言中描绘的四十岁前的生活：在外人眼里，贾达是功成名就的好莱坞女星，丈夫是顶流巨星威尔·史密斯（Will Smith），两人子女双全、坐拥豪宅，事业与生活双双登顶。世人理所当然地认为他们在精神世界里也同样处于顶峰，然而贾达直言不讳：“在内心深处，我当时处于精神破产状态。” 两人的婚姻危机很大程度上源于处理冲突模式与“爱的语言”上的巨大鸿沟。史蒂文提到心理学家约翰·戈特曼（John Gottman）教授对伴侣长达数年的研究——导致婚姻破裂的头号杀手不是争吵本身，而是冲突未解决所累积出的“轻蔑”（contempt）。史蒂文对此深有共鸣，并坦承自己与威尔非常相像：习惯用拼命工作、物质保障和支付账单来证明爱，认为只要把生活条件打点妥当就是负责，却本能地回避深入的情感交流与情绪处理；而他们的伴侣则迫切需要情感沟通、解决问题和深度的情绪接触。 贾达生动地剖析了这种截然不同的诉求： - **威尔的语言**：“我要全力打拼，确保你拥有世上想要的一切，衣食无忧，受人庇护。”他想把“外部现实生活”打造成一座无可挑剔的杰作。 - **贾达的语言**：“我不需要那些物质堆砌，我只想让你真真切切地坐在这里陪我，看着你的眼睛，感受你的爱与守护。”她想把彼此之间的“灵魂联结”打造成一座杰作。 双方在长达数年的时间里互不理解，陷入“谁对谁错”的权力斗争。但贾达强调，这两种诉求本身都没有错，问题在于如何认识并接纳彼此的差异。 --- ### [01:16:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=4568s) 阴阳平衡与破除执念：不要等“以后再联结” 贾达认为，健康的关系不是非黑即白的零和博弈，而是如同太极中的“阴阳”之道，一切都在于平衡。伴侣之间最容易陷入的陷阱就是陷入谁的付出更高尚的争论：“我的方式才是对的”、“如果没有我打拼，你哪能拥有这一切”。这种争论一旦蔓延，就会演变成无休止的内耗。她与威尔足足耗费了整整三十年（three decades），才彻底参透并放下这种对错之争，学会平衡两种需求。 史蒂文听到“三十年”后苦笑着惊呼：“天哪，我可没有三十年的时间去试错！”他反思起自己对女友说过的一句浑话：“我现在事业正处于关键期，机会难得，等我这阵子拼完了，我们往后还有一辈子的时间可以在一起。”结果一周后两人争吵时，女友拿这句话质问他。史蒂文坦言自己当时的潜台词实际上就是“我们以后再联结”。 贾达毫不客气地当头棒喝：“这算是什么荒唐透顶的蠢话（What kind of foolishness is that）？”她直视着史蒂文郑重地告诫他：当一个人行将就木、躺在临终的病榻上时，脑海里绝对不会去回想那些所谓的宏图伟业与世俗成就，唯有真正用心经营的爱与人际联结，才是生命最后的归宿。 ### [01:17:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=4674s) 真正的亲密关系与内在成长 主持人与 Jada Pinkett Smith 谈及临终时的思考：当一个人躺在病床上，回首一生时，最看重的永远是“你如何被爱，以及你如何去爱”。主持人感慨提到 Tupac Shakur 时也意识到，人永远不知道自己和另一个人还剩下多少相处时间，因此将沟通与和解一拖再拖是极其危险的借口。主持人自嘲这是在为自己的“有害工作狂倾向”（toxic workaholism）找借口，但 Jada 反对轻易给事物贴上“有害”（toxic）的标签，因为人人内心皆有创伤。 真正的亲密关系会迫使人们直面自己的阴暗面与内在混乱。Jada 指出，在表面上维系关系很容易——惹对方生气了，买一枚钻戒、送一个名牌包、安排一场奢华旅行就能敷衍过去；但真正的“情感亲密”（emotional intimacy）要求双方直面彼此内心的深层创伤与课题。真正的连结、爱、幸福与充实感，归根结底取决于个人的内在心智世界，而非外界物质的堆砌。 ### [01:19:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=4756s) 婚姻中的怨恨：背离自我与责任错置 主持人援引 Jada 回忆录中的段落，指出她在与 Will Smith 结婚后体会到的严重“自我迷失”——有时感觉无法掌控自己的生命旅程，内心充斥着怨恨与愤怒，却不知如何排解。两人对婚姻幸福有着截然不同的愿景：Will 渴望成为称霸全球的超级巨星，而 Jada 在成全他的过程中逐渐迷失了自己。针对“怨恨”（resentful）这一用词，Jada 作了坦诚的剖析： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 怨恨与自我背离的循环心理机制 accDescr: 展示 Jada 在婚姻中倾其所有支持丈夫梦想，却忽视自身内在连结，最终产生深刻怨恨的心理机制流程。 subgraph GivingPhase["付出与妥协"] A["全力托举丈夫的巨星梦想"] --> B["忽视并背离真正的自我需求"] end subgraph ExpectationPhase["虚妄的期待"] B --> C["期待以此换取深层情感连结"] C --> D["将自身快乐寄托于伴侣身上"] end subgraph DisillusionPhase["幻灭与怨恨"] D --> E["自身内在空虚，伴侣无法填补"] E --> F["产生深刻的委屈、愤怒与怨恨"] end ``` Jada 解释，她当时的心态是：“我愿意全力帮你实现所有的宏图大志，但作为交换，我希望得到我想要的连结。”她不断付出、不断退让，却未意识到这种倾其所有是在“背离自我”（abandoning myself）。她误以为只要把心血全部倾注在丈夫和他的梦想上，终有一天能得到自己渴望的情感回报。然而，这是一种根本性的认知误区：如果一个人内在与自己失去连结、无法与自己建立健康的关系，伴侣无论怎么做都无法填补那种空虚。 世人总习惯在一段关系中分出好人与坏人，但 Jada 强调这里没有绝对的对错，“我们都带着一身创伤，试图在这团乱麻中摸索前行”。她花了漫长的时间、碰了无数次壁才领悟到：**让伴侣快乐并不是对方的责任，他也根本做不到这一点**。 - 传统的浪漫主义观念让人沉迷于“按部就班打卡”（checking the boxes）：自认为履行了妻子应尽的所有义务，对方实现了梦想，自己理应也获得快乐。 - 当时 Will 专注于追求自己的抱负，是在让他自己快乐；而当两人分居时，Will 告诉她“去让自己快乐吧”（go make yourself happy），这番话在当时让深陷怨恨的 Jada 难以接受。 - 她当时感到极度不公，觉得自己帮对方登上了顶峰，最后却被丢在一旁独自面对生活；但回过头看，这正是残酷而必要的真相——人生的快乐只能由自己负责。 ### [01:23:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5004s) 走向“流放之地”：祛除完美主义的毒素 为了重新找回自我，Jada 开启了一场漫长的内在“排毒”（detox）之旅——剥离向外寻求满足与认可的依赖心。她不再将自我价值寄托于 Will、婚姻、家庭或事业之上，而是深入她所谓的“流放之地”（the exiled lands），去探索内心深处的沟壑与裂痕，正视那些阻碍她前行的恐惧，清理外界灌输的虚假观念，包括对婚姻、妻子角色以及完美主义的执念。 身处好莱坞这个将“完美表象”奉为圭臬的名利场，外界表面上光鲜亮丽，但 Jada 逐渐看清这种对完美的狂热既不健康，也违背人性。她选择彻底打破追求完美的面具，转而在接纳自身的不完美中寻找解脱与喜悦。虽然瓦解完美主义的过程充满了剧烈的阵痛，但这成了她重建精神世界的起点。 ### [01:25:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5103s) 39岁深渊：慢性不满与绝望寻死 在步入40岁之前，Jada 陷入了极度黑暗的重度抑郁与心理危机，这也是她自传《Worthy》序言及第17章《这里没有足球妈妈》（No Soccer Mom Here）所记录的核心内容。从外人看来，39岁的她坐拥世人梦寐以求的名誉、财富与美满家庭，但其精神世界却被一种无法排解的“慢性不满”（chronic state of discontent）吞噬，完全看不到任何前行的道路。 当时她处于严重的崩溃边缘，甚至每天只要能强撑着熬到下午4点，心里就会长舒一口气：“我总算熬过今天了。”访谈录制当天上午，Jada 的母亲刚读完书稿，致电表示震惊，问她为何没有把“每天早晨醒来都在痛哭”的细节写进去。Jada 回应称，告诉公众自己当时每天在寻找跳崖自杀的路线，已经足够说明绝望的程度了。周围的人虽然知道她不开心，但没人能理解缘由，普遍的看法正如她内心的自责：“你拥有一切，到底还有什么可不高兴的？”这种无法被理解的痛苦带来了巨大的羞耻感，在当时心理健康尚未被普遍讨论的语境下，她只能在孤立无援中走向彻底的绝望。 - **策划伪装自杀**：寻找自杀地点的念头并非虚构的修辞。她曾开车前往大瑟尔（Big Sur），专门寻找极其狭窄、夜晚大雾弥漫且绝对无法生还的悬崖路段。 - **排除普通坠崖地点**：她曾考察过穆赫兰道（Mulholland Drive）等地的山谷，但觉得落差不够大，担心摔成残疾毁容；她必须寻找一处必死无疑的悬崖。 - **保护子女免受创伤**：她精心策划必须将死亡伪装成一场意外交通事故，绝不能让孩子们知道母亲是自杀身亡的。 - **心理创伤的本质**：Jada 当时感到自己与外部世界的繁华彻底脱节，认定自己“生来就是残缺的”（born broken）。如今复盘，她意识到那场严重的自杀危机并非单纯的生理化学失衡，而是深层的心理溃败——**当内心产生强烈的求死欲时，真正渴望死去的并非肉体本身，而是那个深陷在“自我厌恶恶性循环”（cycle of self-hatred）中的旧有自我与生活模式**。 ### [01:30:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5443s) 迷幻体验与走出自我厌恶的泥潭 在谈到长年困扰自己的心智陷阱时，贾达·萍克特·史密斯（Jada Pinkett Smith）坦言，大脑的思维常常在无意识中欺骗我们，“我们必须格外小心，大脑远没有我们想象的那么可靠”。她曾长期陷在一种近乎本能的自我厌恶循环中无法自拔，直到儿子贾登·史密斯（Jaden Smith）为她带来了一次改变命运的契机。当时，贾登的好友莫伊塞斯与马特奥·阿里亚斯（Moisés and Mateo Arias）的父亲刚体验过死藤水（Ayahuasca），几个人在厨房里热烈讨论。贾登走进厨房对她说：“妈，你得和莫伊塞斯、马特奥坐下来聊聊，听听他们爸爸的这次经历。”贾登并不知道母亲内心正处于崩溃边缘，仅仅是出于对母亲“永远是一名探索者”的了解，而贾达将这一刻视为某种神圣的指引。 贾达随后联系了对方的父亲深入长谈，内心立刻意识到：“这就是我迫切需要的解药。”在随后的安排下，宇宙为她敞开了一扇门，让她参与了一场为期四天、极度剧烈且深刻的萨满仪式体验。正是在这场仪式中，死藤水像一面无情的明镜，将她体内隐蔽的自我厌恶完整地投射在她眼前。“药物清晰地向我展示：‘看，这就是你，这些是你的念头，这是你对自己的真实看法，这就是所有问题的根源。’”这场体验撕开了她深陷其中的自我厌恶深渊，成为她彻底打破恶性循环、重获新生的转折点。 ### [01:32:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5556s) 第20章《臣服》：放下自负与向更高力量敞开 史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提到贾达在新书《值得》（*Worthy*）中的第20章，其标题被定为极其引人深思的词汇——《臣服》（*Surrender*）。贾达解释道，臣服是疗愈旅途中最不可或缺的一环，因为“你必须彻底放弃你认为自己是谁、以及你自以为知道的一切”。当一个人放下所有执念、认知框架与自我防御时，真正的转化才会发生。 史蒂文由此联想到许多参与戒酒互助会（Alcoholics Anonymous，简称 AA）的人，他们戒除成瘾的核心法则同样是“臣服”。贾达深表赞同，并进一步阐述道，对她而言，臣服意味着向一种远高于自身的存在（Higher Power）低头与交托。这不是一次性的仪式，而是一项每日必须重复的内在修持——每一天醒来，她都要提醒自己，向那股远大于自我的力量持续深化自己的臣服与信任。 ### [01:33:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5596s) “纠缠”事件与自我牺牲的殉道者心理 两人的话题随后切入书中极具争议的第19章与第21章，这两章都反映了贾达长期在公众舆论中“独自扛下所有过错”的行为模式。史蒂文提到2020年贾达在《红桌畅谈》（*Red Table Talk*）公开承认婚外“纠缠”（Entanglement）的那期轰动全网的节目。在截取的片段中，威尔·史密斯（Will Smith）显得疲惫而悲伤，甚至苦笑着说“我会找你算账的”，这让全网坚信是贾达背叛了婚姻、婚内出轨。然而事实并非如此，当时两人早已秘密分居多年，各自过着独立的生活。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 贾达从心理殉道到自我觉察的转变过程 accDescr: 展示贾达在情感纠缠风波中习惯性承担所有罪名并通过亲友镜鉴走出共依附与殉道者情结的过程 subgraph Phase1["舆论危机与殉道者反应"] A["威尔尚未准备好公开分居事实"] --> B["贾达选择独自承担公众指责"] B --> C["为了尽快平息风波而自我牺牲<br/>('Martyrdom' 心理模式)"] end subgraph Phase2["亲友镜鉴与内省突破"] C --> D["至亲好友承受舆论连带伤害"] D --> E["母亲直言喝斥：<br/>'你需要去做心理治疗，你陷入了严重的共依附！'"] E --> F["打破麻木，照见内在不健康的牺牲动力"] end subgraph Phase3["深层疗愈"] F --> G["放下盲目自我牺牲<br/>走向真正的自我诚实与边界"] end ``` 史蒂文询问贾达是否后悔主动公开这一期节目，贾达明确回答“绝不后悔”。她坦言，如果不把这件事端上台面，她根本无法发现自己内心深处亟待治愈的创伤。贾达拥有极高的心理耐受力，外人铺天盖地的误解和恶评她根本不在乎，因为她深知公众舆论的荒谬与混乱；但真正击碎她防御的，是看到这件事对自己最爱的人造成的巨大伤害： - **母亲的当头棒喝**：她的母亲阿德里安娜（Adrienne Banfield-Norris）愤怒而心痛地直斥：“你到底在干什么？你必须立刻滚去做心理治疗！你患有极其严重的共依附（Codependency）！” - **子女与朋友的困惑**：孩子们与挚友们都无法理解她为何要将自己推入火坑，纷纷质问她为何要承受这一切。 - **殉道者情结（Martyrdom）的面具**：贾达坦承，由于威尔当时在心理上尚未做好向全世界公开他们分居生活真相的准备，她便下意识地扮演起“牺牲自我”的殉道者角色，以为只要自己把所有污水揽在身上，风暴就能尽快过去。正是家人的强烈反应如同一面镜子，逼她看清了自己病态的自我牺牲倾向。 ### [01:36:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5768s) 奥斯卡风波“神圣巴掌”背后的复杂真相 在谈到第21章《神圣玩笑、神圣巴掌与神圣教训》（*The Holy Joke, the Holy Slap and the Holy Lessons*）时，贾达首次深入剖析了2022年奥斯卡颁奖典礼上那记震惊全球的巴掌。贾达在书中披露，当威尔走上台掌掴克里斯·洛克（Chris Rock）的那一瞬间，她最初以为这只是一出事先排练好的喜剧小品；甚至当她意识到这不是玩笑时，她起初也以为威尔并没有真正打中克里斯，而是被克里斯躲开了。 然而，社交媒体随后疯狂传播贾达在台下翻白眼的特写画面，将这一表情解读为她指使威尔动手的暗号（“去替我教训他”）。贾达无奈地指出，这种指责完全脱离了现实——她根本不可能强迫威尔去做任何事情，更何况当时两人在私下里已经分居多年，她是以家人而非传统夫妻的身份陪伴威尔出席盛典。面对海啸般的公众声讨，贾达虽早料到自己会被当成替罪羊，但风暴的疯狂程度依然令人错愕。 当史蒂文追问这一巴掌是否算得上威尔对她的“爱与保护的表达”（书中曾提及“保护”是贾达的爱的语言）时，贾达给出了极为慎重的回答：“这是一个极其复杂、多层次的时刻，某种程度上说是，也不是。”贾达强调，威尔的行为绝不仅仅是为了她： - **并非因她而起**：那一刻的爆发承载了远超当下情境的沉重情绪，根源不在贾达身上。 - **长期的情绪压抑**：当时威尔刚刚完成极具身心消耗的电影《解放黑奴》（*Emancipation*）的拍摄，整个人处于极其紧绷的情绪临界点。 - **数十年的恩怨积淀**：威尔与克里斯·洛克之间的个人纠葛可以一直追溯到20世纪80年代，那是一段外人无法看透的漫长且复杂的历史。 ### [01:38:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5901s) 《值得》带来的启示与追寻真理的脆弱 史蒂文·巴特利特在对谈尾声向贾达表达了由衷的敬意与感谢。他动情地表示，只有当我们真正理解一个人的成长背景与生命语境时，我们才能真正理解这个人；而一旦看懂了他们，就会发现名人和普通人毫无二致——所有人都在伤痛、不完美、生存防御机制中挣扎前行。史蒂文坦承，《值得》这本书对他而言就像一位智者长辈的叮嘱，书中精准地照亮了他自身性格中源自旧日伤痛的盲区，警示他不要重蹈覆辙。 史蒂文特别称赞贾达在书中所留下的那些“智慧的面包屑”（Breadcrumbs）： - **生动的细节与文笔**：书中对外祖母花园的描摹、在高速公路上突发严重情绪崩溃的真实窒息感，都具有极强的临场感与感染力。 - **超越私利的脆弱与坦诚**：在名利场中，编造一个美化自我、迎合公众的虚假叙事轻而易举，但贾达却选择展现近乎残酷的真实与自我审视。 - **跨越代际的共鸣**：这些饱含人性血泪的教训不仅是贾达的个人叙事，更是献给每一位试图定义自我价值的读者的指南针。 贾达红着眼眶真诚致谢，感谢史蒂文在这个“灰色圆桌”前为她营造了一个绝对安全、包容的空间，并在今天承载了她所有的泪水与脆弱。 ### [01:40:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=6019s) 赞助支持与节目收尾 在正片深情落幕后，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特切入本期节目的赞助伙伴 Huel 的推荐介绍： - **便携即饮代餐（Huel RTD）**：史蒂文透露自己在四年前就发现了 Huel 的即饮代餐系列，将其视为“装在瓶子里的完整正餐”。 - **营养构成指标**：每瓶含有26种人体必需的维生素与矿物质、20克优质蛋白质，并搭配缓释碳水化合物以提供持久平稳的能量支持。 - **生活场景与健康价值**：对于日常工作行程极其紧凑、容易因忙碌而随意乱吃垃圾食品的人群，这种代餐能在最忙碌的日子里成为维持健康与营养均衡的得力帮手。史蒂文鼓励听众通过简介中的链接体验并在评论区分享各自最喜欢的口味。 ## Notable quotes > [02:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=165s) 当我探寻自己破碎之心的源头时，正是发现自己在赐予我生命的两个人心中并非第一位，这种感觉在我的自我价值感上撕开了一道裂缝。 — 贾达·萍克特·史密斯 > [05:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=352s) 听着，我是个瘾君子，也是个罪犯，我做不了你的父亲。 — 罗伯 > [25:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1523s) 你有你的价值，如果你看不到，那是你的损失。 — 贾达·萍克特·史密斯 > [25:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1523s) 你现在已经来到好莱坞了，我懂你的防备，但你为什么不试着让大家看到你的另一面？比如你的魅力、你的笑容，把肩膀上那股较劲的刺稍微收一收。 — 沃伦·比蒂 > [28:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=1706s) 那种被抛弃的感觉极其残酷，我身体里的某些东西彻底碎了，我的悲伤如汪洋大海。我把它放进一个贴着‘不配被爱’标签的图书馆书架上，试图将它永远尘封在那里。 — 贾达·萍克特·史密斯 > [35:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=2114s) 他会坐进你破碎的心灵废墟里，从那里对你说话，因为他自己就经历过、活过那份心碎。 — 贾达·萍克特·史密斯 > [45:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=2732s) 你快来，我要自杀了。 — 贾达·萍克特·史密斯 > [55:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=3338s) 如今我跌入低谷，整个世界都与我为敌，虽然少数人声称爱我，但你再次证明了你的爱。在深刻的反思与精神觉醒之后，我终于意识到，那位朋友、挚爱与灵魂伴侣一直都在。我从未在任何地方、任何人身上见过或感受过你对我展现出的那种炽烈与忠诚。这就是为什么我想向你托付终身，我想娶你。 — 图派克·夏库尔 > [59:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=3568s) 这件事在我的临终之床上还重要吗？ — 贾达·萍克特·史密斯 > [01:16:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=4568s) 这算是什么荒唐透顶的蠢话？ — 贾达·萍克特·史密斯 > [01:25:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5103s) 你拥有一切，到底还有什么可不高兴的？ — 贾达·萍克特·史密斯 > [01:33:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II&t=5596s) 你到底在干什么？你必须立刻滚去做心理治疗！你患有极其严重的共依附！ — 阿德里安娜·班菲尔德-诺里斯 ## Mentioned 贾达·萍克特·史密斯 (Jada Pinkett Smith), 斯蒂芬·巴特利特 (Steven Bartlett), 威尔·史密斯 (Will Smith), 图派克·夏库尔 (Tupac Shakur), 罗伯 (Rob), 托尼 (Tony), 沃伦·比蒂 (Warren Beatty), 麦克辛 (Maxine), 阿芬妮·夏库尔 (Afeni Shakur), 芬恩 (Fawn), 杜瓦恩·马丁 (Duane Martin), 黛比·艾伦 (Debbie Allen), MC Lyte, 雪莉·赞皮诺 (Sheree Zampino), 劳伦·伦敦 (Lauren London), 尼普西·哈塞尔 (Nipsey Hussle), 贾登·史密斯 (Jaden Smith), 薇洛·史密斯 (Willow Smith), 特雷·史密斯 (Trey Smith), 莫伊塞斯·阿里亚斯 (Moisés Arias), 马特奥·阿里亚斯 (Mateo Arias), 阿德里安娜·班菲尔德-诺里斯 (Adrienne Banfield-Norris), 克里斯·洛克 (Chris Rock), 加博尔·马泰 (Gabor Maté), 约翰·戈特曼 (John Gottman), 《值得》 (Worthy), 《CEO日记》 (The Diary Of A CEO), 《身体从未忘记》 (The Body Keeps the Score), 《新鲜王子妙爹来》 (The Fresh Prince of Bel-Air), 《不同的世界》 (A Different World), 《杰森的抒情诗》 (Jason's Lyric), 《解放黑奴》 (Emancipation), 《红桌畅谈》 (Red Table Talk), 百忧解 (Prozac), 死藤水 (Ayahuasca), Huel, 巴尔的摩艺术学校 (Baltimore School for the Arts), 莱克斯岛 (Rikers Island), 克林顿惩教所 (Clinton Correctional Facility / Dannemora) ## Video description If you enjoy hearing about the hidden side of Hollywood, I recommend you check out my conversation with Cole Sprouse, which you can find here: https://youtu.be/3XP9J3UyTUo You can purchase Jada’s new memoir, ‘Worthy’, here: https://amzn.to/3uaMbGP The episode is available in French and Spanish. 00:00 Intro 00:21 🌟 Jada Pinkett Smith's early life and growing up on the streets of Baltimore 03:01 🏡 Jada's childhood and experiencing domestic violence 09:29 🎭 Using Acting As An Escape 16:02 💔 Why Jada turned to drug dealing 20:21 🌆 The moment that changed Jada's perspective on life 25:11 🌟 Jada Pinkett Smith's transition to Hollywood 25:51 🚀 How to thrive in different contexts throughout life 29:29 🤯 Jada's relationship with Tupac Shakur 37:34 😎 What made Tupac special 41:14 💑 Jada's first impressions of Will Smith 45:10 💔 Experiencing an emotional breakdown 54:11 💔 How Jada and Tupac reconnected 55:46 💍 How Tupac proposed to Jada Pinkett Smith and their relationship 01:02:30 💔 Why Jada and Tupac fell out and the importance of resolving conflicts 01:16:29 ❤️ The importance of balance in relationships and addressing issues 01:19:42 🤔 Jada's resent in her marriage to Will Smith 01:22:53 😢 Experiencing a chronic state of discontent 01:26:00 💔 Complexities of Jada's Relationship with Will Smith: Layers of Pain and Resilience 01:31:08 💊 Jada's experience with psychedelics 01:34:15 🌪️ Jada explains the "entanglement" and how it impacted Will Smith 01:38:59 📖 Jada Pinkett Smith's Book: A Beacon of Wisdom for Self-Discovery and Healing Follow Jada: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3RWI9vp Twitter: https://bit.ly/3Firs6d Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-diary-of-a-ceo-by-steven-bartlett/id1291423644 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGq-a57w-aPwyi3pW7XLiHw/join FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: http://bit.ly/3ztHuHm Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Sponsors: Eightsleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/uk/steven/ CODE: STEVEN (save $150 on the Pod Cover) Zoe: http://joinzoe.com with an exclusive code CEO10 for 10% off Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vwFxptz77II)

[2:45] 贾达·萍克特·史密斯: 当我探寻自己破碎之心的源头时，正是发现自己在赐予我生命的两个人心中并非第一位，这种感觉在我的自我价值感上撕开了一道裂缝。 [5:52] 罗伯: 听着，我是个瘾君子，也是个罪犯，我做不了你的父亲。 [25:23] 贾达·萍克特·史密斯: 你有你的价值，如果你看不到，那是你的损失。 [25:23] 沃伦·比蒂: 你现在已经来到好莱坞了，我懂你的防备，但你为什么不试着让大家看到你的另一面？比如你的魅力、你的笑容，把肩膀上那股较劲的刺稍微收一收。 [28:26] 贾达·萍克特·史密斯: 那种被抛弃的感觉极其残酷，我身体里的某些东西彻底碎了，我的悲伤如汪洋大海。我把它放进一个贴着‘不配被爱’标签的图书馆书架上，试图将它永远尘封在那里。 [35:14] 贾达·萍克特·史密斯: 他会坐进你破碎的心灵废墟里，从那里对你说话，因为他自己就经历过、活过那份心碎。 [45:32] 贾达·萍克特·史密斯: 你快来，我要自杀了。 [55:38] 图派克·夏库尔: 如今我跌入低谷，整个世界都与我为敌，虽然少数人声称爱我，但你再次证明了你的爱。在深刻的反思与精神觉醒之后，我终于意识到，那位朋友、挚爱与灵魂伴侣一直都在。我从未在任何地方、任何人身上见过或感受过你对我展现出的那种炽烈与忠诚。这就是为什么我想向你托付终身，我想娶你。 [59:28] 贾达·萍克特·史密斯: 这件事在我的临终之床上还重要吗？ [76:08] 贾达·萍克特·史密斯: 这算是什么荒唐透顶的蠢话？ [85:03] 贾达·萍克特·史密斯: 你拥有一切，到底还有什么可不高兴的？ [93:16] 阿德里安娜·班菲尔德-诺里斯: 你到底在干什么？你必须立刻滚去做心理治疗！你患有极其严重的共依附！

[2:45] Steven Bartlett: When I go in search of the origins of my broken heart, it is the sense of not being the priority to the two people who gave me life that creates a fracture in my feeling of worth. [21:07] Jada Pinkett Smith: I was running with killers, so the Hollywood flex... it just didn't resonate that way for me. I looked at all of that as just kind of like puppy play. [35:17] Jada Pinkett Smith: He's not talking at you, he's talking with you. He had a way of being able to speak about subject matters that he's going to sit with you in your broken heart and speak to you from there. [39:40] Jada Pinkett Smith: Don't judge a book by its cover—that's what Will Smith taught me. [54:49] Will Smith: Good, you're seeing me now [73:08] Will Smith: make a masterpiece out of life itself [73:08] Jada Pinkett Smith: make a masterpiece out of our connection [78:18] Will Smith: go make yourself happy [86:00] Jada Pinkett Smith: something is asking to die, but not you [93:29] Adrienne Banfield-Norris: codependent as hell

[0:00] I was in a cycle of self-hatred and it [0:02] was just a really dark time I went out [0:05] and I knew I had to make it look like an [0:07] accident cuz I did not want my kids to [0:09] think that I had [0:18] committed please welcome Jada pinket [0:21] Smith Jada I knew you as a Hollywood [0:24] actress I never knew you were the [0:26] daughter of two drug addicted parents [0:28] and a teenage drug dealer yourself on [0:30] the streets of Baltimore I really [0:32] thought I was going to be the next big [0:33] time female drug dealer I was absolutely [0:36] Fearless but getting 2 n mm pointed at [0:38] you they pointed two guns at you that's [0:40] a big wakeup call but what happened [0:43] somebody set me up and then I had to [0:46] always have this tough exterior now as [0:49] I'm dismantling my defenses I'm in a [0:52] really raw place the holy slap what [0:55] happened I knew I was going to get [0:56] blamed but like it was insane you say [1:00] protection is your love language did you [1:01] see that as a Act of love the [1:05] entanglement conversation we broke up [1:07] and then what did you do J my mother my [1:09] kids they were like how could you do [1:12] this do you regret putting that out [1:15] honestly I've got this wonderful picture [1:17] that I found oh I know that picture do [1:19] you know why this is [1:23] relevant yeah I lost him back to [1:27] back that's the way it is [1:32] I just want to start this episode with a [1:34] message of thanks a thank you to [1:35] everybody that Tunes in to listen to [1:37] this podcast by doing so you've enabled [1:39] me to live out my dream but also for [1:41] many members of our team to live out [1:44] their dreams too it's one of the [1:45] greatest privileges I could never have [1:46] dreamed of or imagined in my life to get [1:48] to do this to get to learn from these [1:49] people to get to have these [1:51] conversations to get to interrogate them [1:52] from a very selfish perspective trying [1:54] to solve problems I have in my life so I [1:56] feel like I owe you a huge thank you for [1:58] being here and for listening to these [2:00] episodes and for making this platform [2:01] what it is can I ask you a favor I can't [2:04] tell you how much um you can change the [2:06] course of this podcast the the course of [2:08] the guests were able to invite to the [2:10] show and to the course of everything [2:12] that we do here just by doing one simple [2:13] thing and that simple thing is hitting [2:15] that subscribe button helps this channel [2:17] more than I could ever explain the [2:18] guests on this platform are incredible [2:21] because so many of you have hit that [2:22] button and I know when we think about [2:25] what we want to do together over the [2:26] next year on this show a lot of it is [2:28] going to be fueled by the amount of you [2:30] that are subscribed and that tune into [2:31] this show every week so thank you let's [2:34] keep doing this and I can't wait to see [2:35] what this year brings for this show for [2:37] us as a community and for this [2:40] [Music] [2:45] platform Jada yes I always believe that [2:50] in order to understand someone you have [2:51] to understand their context and having [2:54] read through the entirety of your book [2:56] there was this line that stood out to me [2:58] which I think [3:00] might [3:01] be might summarize the most important [3:03] part of your earliest context which is [3:06] when I go in search of the origins of My [3:07] Broken Heart it is the sense of not [3:09] being the priority to the two people who [3:12] gave me life that creates a fracture in [3:14] my feeling of worth yeah why did you [3:18] write that [3:20] line because it's true you know it's [3:24] like our parents are like our first [3:27] mirrors and so my parents were really [3:30] young when they had me I mean my mom was [3:32] 17 right 17 18 she was 17 when she was [3:35] pregnant I think she was 18 by the time [3:37] she had me so youth on top [3:40] of [3:42] addiction and I just realized you know [3:46] as I was going through my life in [3:48] different therapeutic settings I was [3:50] like oh wow like the first mirror I [3:54] had was kind of non-existent in a way [3:58] because [4:01] drugs were my parents' [4:04] priority you know during my upbringing [4:08] and [4:08] so I didn't really get the reflection [4:12] of feeling like a priority to the people [4:15] who brought me into the world now thank [4:18] goodness my grandmother came into the [4:19] picture you know and she really she was [4:22] a a beautiful powerful mirror for me [4:25] that you know even to my you know it's [4:27] still a mirror for me to this day [4:30] um where I could see myself I could see [4:34] the beauty of myself I could see my [4:37] gifts and my talents was through her and [4:40] what she was reflecting back to me but [4:43] um I think it's important [4:46] that I think it's important if it's [4:49] possible for children to [4:53] feel that sense of [4:58] um that sense sense of importance that [5:00] sense of priority from their [5:04] parents I had an air of sort of [5:06] loneliness as I read through the pages [5:08] this kind of lonely young girl who was [5:10] searching to be recognized and loved and [5:12] to someone to sort of hold her hand and [5:16] guide her through those early years [5:17] and other than in your grandmother's [5:20] garden with your [5:22] grandmother it it found like that place [5:25] of home was never was never really [5:28] there yeah yeah I definitely had it with [5:31] my grandmother now once she [5:33] passed that's when I took to the streets [5:36] to like figure [5:38] out [5:40] finding my home finding my tribe finding [5:44] my power finding my identity finding my [5:47] purpose finding my [5:50] worth [5:52] yeah your dad mhm Rob [5:57] yeah he um he took for a walk one day [6:00] and explained to you why he couldn't be [6:01] your [6:03] father he [6:05] did I was seven and [6:09] um he just said he said look I'm a I'm [6:12] an addict and a criminal and I can't be [6:15] your father and I was like now mind you [6:19] he hadn't really been in my life that [6:20] much anyway I didn't really know he [6:22] wasn't present in my in my life enough [6:25] for me to even know what it was like to [6:28] have a father but what I did appreciate [6:30] in that moment was like wow just thank [6:33] you thank you for like being honest now [6:36] I didn't realize at that time because I [6:39] was so young how that would [6:41] affect my relationships with men ongoing [6:45] you know as an adult [6:47] woman um but yeah in that moment I was [6:50] just like thank you somebody is like [6:53] being honest with me I'm not crazy [6:55] something is absolutely not right here [6:56] and he's letting me know what that is is [6:59] and he's saying [7:01] hey I'm going to keep my distance you [7:06] know 10 years old 12 13 years old what [7:09] does Jada think she's going to be when [7:10] she grows [7:12] up at 10 11 12 13 I I definitely was [7:18] like I wanted to be an artist definitely [7:21] wanted to be an actress you wanted to be [7:24] an actress yeah I did I did I wanted to [7:26] be an actress I started very young I was [7:29] doing theater um I think my first [7:33] professional gig was like seven years [7:35] old as one of Madame Bon Bon's children [7:38] in the [7:40] Nutcracker um and then I was in you know [7:44] different theatrical programs in the [7:46] summertime and what have you and then [7:49] the uh when I got the opportunity to [7:52] join Twigs which prepared you for [7:54] Baltimore School for the Arts I joined [7:56] that after school program so Arts has [7:58] always been been a big part of my life [8:02] do you know why cuz when as I read [8:05] through those early years of your life [8:06] it seemed that acting was doing [8:08] something the the performance the being [8:10] on stage [8:12] the the validation I think it was giving [8:15] you was doing something for you that it [8:16] might not have done for someone else who [8:18] hadn't walked the steps You' walked up [8:20] until that point the validation but also [8:22] an [8:23] outlet it was a real outlet for me where [8:27] I was able to EXP Express certain [8:29] feelings that I didn't feel like I had [8:31] the permission to express at [8:33] home um and um it was a [8:41] huge it was a huge outlet for me in that [8:44] way I mean to the point [8:46] that my theater teachers would often [8:49] tell me um you know they try to steer me [8:52] into like more why don't you try more [8:54] comedic roles you know I was always [8:56] going for the very dramatic very high [8:59] highly emotional you know uh [9:03] roles um and my I just remember my [9:07] theater teacher always trying to guide [9:10] me into [9:12] diversifying the monologues that I would [9:15] choose uh for for my pieces to work on [9:18] in [9:19] class I read um read some books I think [9:22] one of them was called the body holds [9:23] the score which talks about mhm the role [9:25] that acting can play as sort of a [9:28] therapy yeah and it's [9:30] so it seems to not be a coincidence that [9:33] the amount of actors I've sat here and [9:34] spoke with who have pretty um [9:39] Unthinkable Early Childhood experiences [9:40] domestic violence in the home Etc that [9:43] then find acting as an outlet for a form [9:45] of escapism almost escaping the identity [9:47] embodying a different role absolutely [9:50] totally agree totally [9:53] agree as I read it in your story I was [9:55] like not another [9:57] one yes another one [10:00] it's [10:01] classic yeah and I I reflect on some of [10:05] the words you wrote in the early part of [10:06] the book where you're talking about your [10:08] mother and your father there being [10:12] domestic violence in the home at an [10:13] early age your mother running out of the [10:15] house dropping you on the floor because [10:17] Rob had punched her I believe your [10:20] father had punched her yeah the these [10:22] are stories I guess you've heard after [10:24] the fact from your mother [10:28] yeah but I guess you believe those [10:30] moments leave a mark [10:32] absolutely I mean my mother talks about [10:35] it to this day and we'll choke up she'll [10:38] you know cry it's like it's it's you [10:41] don't get over things in the sense of [10:43] like it's forgotten you know you learn [10:44] to cope with it you heal in a certain [10:46] manner but it still can leave a certain [10:49] imprint upon you um and even hearing [10:52] those stories are not easy you know even [10:55] as an adult because she didn't really [10:57] give me the details until I was [11:01] was I mean my kids would dag on their [11:04] adults before she shared with me the [11:07] level of violence that she dealt with [11:09] with my dad did it help you understand [11:12] yourself did it help you connect [11:16] dots I don't [11:18] know if it helped me understand myself [11:21] as much as it helped me understand my [11:25] mother and then that helped me [11:27] understand a lot of how her journey has [11:33] imprinted upon me in a certain manner [11:36] you know so I guess it does if you take [11:39] you know through through my mother and [11:40] her journey helped me understand her [11:42] journey which has affected me so yeah I [11:45] guess you could say that it helped me [11:47] understand myself more I say that [11:49] because I sat with um you know Gabel [11:50] matate gab gab M I do yeah yes yes he [11:54] was the he's the person that opened my [11:56] eyes to the fact that even the things [11:58] that occurred when when we are babies [12:00] yeah we interpret them to mean um [12:03] certain things about ourselves and he [12:04] says babies are incredibly selfish so [12:07] for example if the parents are arguing [12:08] the baby will interpret that is [12:10] reflection of them MH and I think about [12:13] the early context that I think I read [12:14] about in your story but also that [12:15] appears in mine and how I interpreted [12:18] that to mean that I wasn't enough in [12:20] some way yeah um which is a real through [12:23] line throughout your story yeah for [12:26] sure I and I think [12:29] that probably is probably [12:32] more subconscious unconscious than that [12:36] which the abuse of drugs [12:40] and how that reflected to me that I [12:44] wasn't worthy in a certain manner [12:47] that why is it that this particular [12:50] substance has more power over you know [12:53] has more attention more power more [12:56] influence than me [12:59] to the point that your father will tell [13:02] you I'm [13:04] relinquishing my parental rights because [13:09] I'd rather be a criminal on a drug [13:11] addict than try to get my [ __ ] together [13:14] for [13:15] you is the way I interpreted [13:18] that and at the same time was like just [13:20] thank you for being honest instead of [13:22] sitting up here pretending like you're [13:24] doing something different thank [13:26] you you know which a lot of people would [13:31] do Tony was he your he was your mother's [13:35] first part partner after Rob no she he [13:39] was her first husband first husband okay [13:42] yeah after Rob and he seemed to be a [13:43] pretty solid he yeah he was he was [13:47] indeed it's this guy comes into your [13:50] life and plays the role of a father by [13:53] all accounts he seems to do a pretty [13:55] good job and seems to love on you in a [13:56] way that is sufficient for a child [13:59] but then he [14:02] too vanishes out of your life makes a [14:06] exit makes an acit yeah which I [14:09] understand you know as an adult now [14:11] looking back and and looking at the [14:14] circumstances you know he did the best [14:16] that he could he's a man that was trying [14:18] to get his life together and my mother [14:20] was was deep in her [14:23] addiction addiction to heroin at that [14:26] time and so [14:29] you you can't you can't [14:31] negotiate with that it's either you want [14:34] to get help you know um or you have to [14:40] sometimes you have to make clean breaks [14:42] I know that now as an adult and you [14:46] don't always know how to play the [14:48] middle you know and so I get it what [14:53] does that do to you as a young a young [14:54] woman who's trying to figure out what [14:56] where safety is it's devastating ating [14:59] it's devastating I mean I completely [15:02] abandoned feeling like I could depend on [15:06] anyone which is why I just took to the [15:08] streets I was like you know what I'm [15:09] going to figure [15:12] out how to make money gain power and [15:17] create a situation where I can protect [15:19] myself and my mother and make sure just [15:23] in case she doesn't make it I'mma be [15:26] okay you take to the street [15:29] when you say take to the streets what [15:30] you mean by that when I would see you [15:34] know the high rollers the hustlers I was [15:36] like oh that's what I want you know I [15:40] want [15:41] to have the Mercedes I want to have big [15:44] wads of cash in my pocket I want to have [15:48] friends around me that will protect [15:52] me and I want to be able to have [15:55] security and stability created by my own [15:58] hands I don't want to depend on anybody [16:00] not only do I not want to depend on [16:02] anybody I can't depend on anyone and so [16:06] the [16:09] streets that's where I saw [16:13] security because we didn't have doctors [16:16] and lawyers you know [16:19] to look upon you know like that's the [16:23] aspiration right because in our [16:26] neighborhoods that's what we had we had [16:28] hustlers [16:29] right and they had the good life so you [16:32] could be a hustler or you could be a [16:33] Hustler's girlfriend I wasn't trying to [16:35] be the girl one trying to be a [16:38] girlfriend and [16:42] so I'd look [16:45] to to that lifestyle [16:48] to offer me the security that I didn't [16:51] have at [16:52] home as an opportunity for me to create [16:55] that security that I didn't have at home [17:00] security [17:03] protection safety these are all words [17:06] that appear over and over and over again [17:09] in your [17:10] book I know right yeah childhood to [17:14] adulthood those are the the most [17:17] recurring words yep and you you found [17:20] that security in part through a [17:21] lifestyle of drug dealing yourself MH um [17:24] which again I said to you before we [17:25] started recording Jada that I knew you [17:28] as a Hollywood actress you know that's [17:32] what I that's what I know of you of I'm [17:34] not someone that's hugely involved in [17:35] Media or TV or movie so that's what I [17:37] thought I never in my life IM thought of [17:39] you as the daughter of two um drug [17:43] addicted parents who had chosen their [17:47] addiction over you and I never knew that [17:49] you started dealing drugs when you were [17:52] very very young were you were you not [17:54] scared dealing drugs in Baltimore [17:57] and you you don't have time to be scared [18:00] that environment was a war zone right [18:03] and so it's like stuff was popping off [18:06] all the time so you just get used to a [18:09] certain level of violence you get used [18:12] to a certain level of [18:15] um just vigilance because that's what [18:19] you're [18:20] given so you just learn to adapt to that [18:25] kind of environment so the levels what [18:27] what somebody might consider [18:30] dangerous for me was just [18:33] normal it wasn't like ooh I'm going into [18:36] something crazy here you know it's like [18:38] [ __ ] everything's crazy so what right so [18:42] I look at it now and I go what in the [18:44] world you know but I have I'm living a [18:47] different reality in that time when I [18:49] was living that [18:51] reality that's what life was and [18:56] everybody that's what we were all living [18:59] was there moments [19:01] that were wakeup calls hell yeah and you [19:05] were dealing drug listen getting two n [19:08] millimeters pointed at you at one time [19:11] one to your head that's a that that you [19:13] would think that's a big wakeup call Jay [19:15] we don't all know what 9 millimeter is [19:17] oh you know I guns you know it's two big [19:22] guns you know when did that [19:25] happen [19:26] um I had to [19:30] be [19:32] 17 17 17 years old because that was my [19:36] senior year of high [19:38] school and what what was the reason that [19:42] someone pointed two guns at your [19:43] head I was I had uh posted up in this in [19:49] the projects in this apartment on the [19:52] bottom floor where I would sell drugs [19:54] out of the window or through the door of [19:58] that particular [20:01] apartment and somebody set me up to make [20:03] a long story short somebody set me up [20:06] and um as I was making the exchange [20:09] through the door that had the chain on [20:12] it two guys from the side of the door [20:15] which I couldn't see because I'm looking [20:16] through the peephole two guys from the [20:18] side of the door come around and kick [20:20] the door [20:21] in and pull out guns Point them to me [20:27] and take all my money my jewelry and [20:32] stash and I was really lucky to make it [20:35] out of that alive for sure because the [20:39] person who led that robbery ended up [20:43] killing two drug dealers um two weeks or [20:48] a month after put them in a uh put him [20:51] in a trunk shot the trunk up and uh [20:57] murdered [20:58] two guys and um he ended up doing life [21:02] for that [21:03] but uh I could tell as he was leaving [21:07] you know you it's so interesting when [21:09] you're in moments like that I can still [21:11] see his eyes as he's leaving me and how [21:15] he's making a choice in the moment of [21:18] what he's going to do with [21:21] me and by the grace of [21:25] God he left me there [21:29] why well when and of course I you know [21:33] my crazy self because of [21:37] who because of the protection that I was [21:39] under at the time I called that person I [21:42] was like I just got robbed he knew [21:44] exactly he knew exactly he's like I know [21:46] who this is don't worry about anything [21:50] um I was like I want my [ __ ] [21:52] back and [21:55] so we actually um [21:58] that person whose Wing I was under he [22:02] made for a meeting for us to meet in [22:04] that area a couple of days later he was [22:07] like you're not going to get your money [22:08] back you're not going to get the drugs [22:09] back but maybe there might be some [22:11] pieces of jewelry of yours that he'll [22:13] you know he hasn't sold yet and that's [22:15] he was exactly right he had you know a [22:17] couple chains or [22:18] whatever and I told I asked him I said [22:21] you [22:22] know why' you just leave me there like [22:25] and he said you were too pretty and that [22:27] was the first time and I talk about this [22:29] in the book that was the first time that [22:31] I was like well maybe I am pretty [22:35] because I was like maybe I am pretty [22:38] because you know he cuz this this was a [22:41] stone cold killer and I talk about even [22:44] when I met him how he looked like he he [22:47] had never [22:49] felt any kind of love in his [22:52] life and I'm just I don't know what kind [22:55] of crazy nut I was at that time I was [22:57] just so [23:00] all I can say is just out of my mind [23:02] like I was just in such an alter reality [23:04] I I I really thought I was going to be [23:06] the next Queen pen first of [23:08] all again a lot of people don't know [23:10] what queen pen is Jan yeah well you know [23:12] I thought I was going to be the next you [23:14] know like big time female drug dealer [23:17] you know and I really had I I was I I [23:21] was crazy I absolutely was just a nut [23:23] because I had no fear whatsoever I was [23:26] absolutely Fearless [23:28] to be rolling with these wolves like [23:31] this and like it was nothing like it was [23:34] absolutely nothing I think about that [23:37] today I think of my daughter I'm like [23:40] what the [23:43] like I don't know all I can and that's [23:46] when I know and I think back on [23:48] everything that I've been through I was [23:49] like there is a God for sure there was a [23:53] God cuz that [23:55] dude for me to even want to see his face [23:58] again was like I want my [ __ ] [24:02] back and he had it he had it for me he [24:04] was like there you go you know and so um [24:09] but it prepared me for Hollywood it [24:11] prepared me it prepared me big time how [24:17] it prepared me in a way because I was [24:19] running with Killers that's it's as [24:21] simple as that right so the Hollywood [24:25] Flex you know dudes who [24:29] were presenting themselves as like these [24:32] powerful you know if you don't do what I [24:34] say like bro [24:38] honestly it it it just didn't resonate [24:42] that way for me I just looked at it I [24:44] looked at all of that as just kind of [24:48] like puppy [24:51] play it didn't resonate with you but [24:54] from the words you describe in your book [24:56] about how you received in Hollywood it [24:59] appears that H you didn't resonate with [25:02] Hollywood either for a while I did not [25:05] yeah for a minute this Rough Around the [25:07] Edges Rough Around the Edges yeah [25:09] because I mean it it was part of what [25:11] was refreshing for a lot of people but [25:14] it was also the thing that was [25:16] standoffish too right what is that um I [25:20] think just that that edge that I came [25:23] with that [25:24] no you know having no [ __ ] to give [25:27] basically was just like I'm here to do [25:30] me [25:32] what you know and I got something to [25:35] offer and if you can't see it well then [25:38] that's on you you're lost you know just [25:40] that kind of attitude and just kind of [25:42] like you know I wasn't your Prim [25:45] proper uh [25:48] demure young lady you know it's just [25:51] kind of like as just rough [25:53] rugged and rambunctious since [25:57] interesting isn't it in life how a [25:59] certain type of demeanor or attitude or [26:02] mindset can help us to survive and [26:04] thrive in one context but sometimes we [26:06] need to figure out how to turn that [ __ ] [26:08] off yes and that's what I had to learn [26:10] to do cuz you weren't in Survival [26:12] anymore I wasn't in Survival anymore you [26:14] know [26:15] and I talk about this in the book you [26:18] know how Warren batty bless him he was [26:22] probably one of the first people that [26:24] was just like [26:26] hey you're in Hollywood now okay I get [26:30] it but why don't you allow people to see [26:34] some other aspects that charm you have [26:37] that smile you have like let's take that [26:39] let's take that chip off your shoulder a [26:41] little bit you know and he was the first [26:43] person really to talk to me in a way [26:46] that wasn't like making me [26:48] wrong right he didn't make me [26:51] wrong for being who I was he was just [26:54] like there's so much more to you let [26:56] people see that [26:58] you know and that was the first time I [27:02] actually listened because he didn't make [27:04] me wrong and I bet you Warren has no [27:07] idea that how how much that conversation [27:11] and the time that he spent with me [27:13] really meant to me was really awesome [27:15] because he was he was so respectful and [27:21] he really [27:22] honored where I [27:25] sat and where you you didn't get that [27:27] often in Hollywood it was just like no [27:29] you got to change this you got to do [27:31] this different you you'll never get jobs [27:33] like that I was just like well then I [27:36] won't work [27:38] cuz you know I was very rebellious [27:41] sometimes in that [27:42] way um but yeah he really that really [27:46] stuck with me and from that day on I [27:49] just started on the Journey of trying to [27:51] figure out how to not lose [27:54] myself but also [27:59] feel find a way to [28:03] feel safe to take that approach because [28:08] like I said I was [28:11] around wolves all the time so I had to [28:15] always be on guard I had to always have [28:19] this tough exterior I always had to [28:21] carry the attitude like I'm not the one [28:24] you don't want to come over here it's [28:26] interesting cuz when [28:28] you putting up such a barrier to defend [28:30] yourself [28:32] um Can often make us quite hard [28:38] to form connections yes absolutely the [28:42] reason I paus there is because I'm [28:44] thinking about what you said in the book [28:46] after Tony left you who was your [28:49] mother's new husband he left abrupt [28:52] abruptly after playing the role of of a [28:54] father and you said the line about um [28:56] the rejection was was brutal something [28:58] broke inside me my grief was Oceanic I [29:00] put on a li I put it on a library shelf [29:03] labeled unlovable and I tried to leave [29:05] it there that's another word that comes [29:07] up over and over again this word UNL [29:09] unlovable and it's funny because when [29:10] people are when they feel unlovable [29:13] themselves they do often put up these [29:15] walls which make them it's almost like [29:17] self-fulfilling it's right you know [29:19] exactly and that's the essence of what I [29:21] felt in J when she arrives in Hollywood [29:22] is this person who's got this sort of [29:24] little bit of a tough exterior up but [29:26] not because not because she's not you [29:28] know yeah not because you know it was [29:31] really just it was it was so many things [29:34] I was trying to protect it was defense [29:36] not offense what I'm saying exctly yeah [29:39] it was and and I still to this day you [29:42] know people like you know I still to [29:45] this day have to like manage that [29:49] because it's [29:50] just it's just in me it's just part of [29:53] me it's something because it was such [29:56] a um [29:59] it was you know it was something that [30:01] was built at the foundation you know [30:03] it's in my DNA default it's yeah it's my [30:06] default so it's like and I I do it well [30:09] I can just you won't know anything [30:12] that's going on but like you said it's [30:14] like well then you don't give yourself [30:16] an opportunity to make the connections [30:18] that you really want to have and you're [30:20] going to be misunderstood stood yeah all [30:24] the time which that is like that has [30:27] been my life too just [30:30] misunderstood another thing I learned [30:32] from reading the book which is going to [30:34] shock you that I didn't know but this [30:35] shows how little I am tuned into media [30:37] and Hollywood all that is your [30:40] relationship with Tupac oh yeah he comes [30:43] over introduces himself yeah first day [30:46] of school Baltimore School for the Arts [30:50] and um as soon as I walk in he's holding [30:54] Court he's holding Court [30:58] he's a like he's a charismatic from day [31:01] one he's holding Court I'm like who's [31:04] who's that peanut head dude over there [31:06] you know and I'm coming in I'm rocking [31:08] you know I'm Jada I'm walking in I got [31:10] the rat tail I got the fly clothes you [31:13] know and he turns and we our eyes just [31:18] meet and I'm like oh and then you know [31:22] I'm I'm going to hold my court you know [31:24] I'm [31:26] saying and so then he comes over you [31:29] know my I'm like oh okay cool yeah [31:31] whatever and so he comes over and he's [31:33] like hey I'm Tupac and I'm like Tupac [31:37] the name from the gate was just like [31:41] never heard a name like that before that [31:43] was such a [31:44] powerful different name and I was like [31:47] Tupac and he had this big smile and I [31:51] was like it's not a lot of people that [31:53] have that kind of like Charisma and [31:56] courage to just walk up on me on just [31:58] like I'm Tupac I'm you know what I mean [32:00] you need to know me you know and from [32:03] the right from there Inseparable we [32:05] became the best of friends from that [32:07] moment on we just connected it was as if [32:09] we already knew each other it's [32:11] crazy people will find it hard to [32:13] believe that at that age in that [32:15] environment it wasn't a romantic thing I [32:17] know people have had a really hard time [32:20] you know understanding that Pac and I [32:22] had a hard time understanding [32:25] why it just didn't we didn't have it and [32:28] I talk about it in the book you know [32:30] that being on the back of porch of my [32:33] house and we're like having this [32:35] discussion I'm like okay Pac just kiss [32:38] me and he kisses me and it's the most [32:42] disgusting kiss between us both I mean [32:45] he pulled back just like and I pulled [32:47] back and I was like see dummy you know [32:51] and from there it was just like and then [32:54] there was one more time he kissed me and [32:56] it was just like like and I talk about [32:59] that in in jail when I go to see him in [33:01] danam Mora that's a whole another thing [33:04] and once again it's just [33:06] like [33:08] dude doesn't work but [33:13] throughout our [33:16] relationship we definitely had this [33:18] beautiful [33:20] closeness that was really [33:24] intimate but never physically intimate a [33:29] lot of emotional [33:30] intimacy a lot of um [33:35] intellectual [33:36] intimacy um we just knew how to reach [33:40] each other in ways that was very [33:42] difficult we knew how to get around each [33:45] other's walls and we didn't get offended [33:51] when we would fall into our defaults of [33:55] Defense which could be be pretty Fierce [33:57] between the two of us he was [34:01] quite uh a Powerhouse and so was I we [34:06] could be very challenging when we got [34:08] riled up so arguments we were very [34:11] passionate but because we were one and [34:14] the same in that way we kind of [34:15] understood that language like a this [34:17] joke is is you know what I mean so we [34:19] didn't get offended a lot until one [34:22] particular time which comes later in the [34:24] book yeah when you come from the same [34:26] place so you know origin stories you [34:27] don't have that misunderstood thing you [34:30] talk about because you understand I just [34:32] understood him I just understood him and [34:34] he understood me he really got me and he [34:38] really knew how to pull my coattails in [34:41] ways that a lot of people didn't and [34:43] same for me with him I just [34:46] knew how to reach him in ways that and [34:49] and that had everything and I think [34:52] because we didn't [34:54] have that kind of I think sometimes [34:57] physical intimacy can really get in the [34:59] way MH you know um and I think that God [35:04] just made it that way in which Gody was [35:07] like no no no I need you to to be I I I [35:10] got a plan so that's not part of plan [35:14] did you know did you in your heart of [35:17] hearts know that Tupac was going to go [35:20] on to do what he [35:22] did I knew he was going to go to do [35:25] something m [35:28] I did not know he would [35:30] become the Tupac we know him to be but I [35:33] knew he was going to do something great [35:35] in hindsight when you look back at who [35:38] he was the character traits the [35:39] ingredients that were within him why did [35:42] he go on to do what he did what was it [35:44] about [35:45] him he wore his heart on his sleeve and [35:49] he could join [35:51] you and so what I mean by joining you is [35:54] that he's not talking at you he's [35:56] talking with you he had a way of being [35:59] able [36:01] to speak about subject matters [36:06] that he's going to sit with you in your [36:11] broken heart and speak to you from there [36:15] because he knows that broken [36:18] heart he's lived that broken heart so [36:22] and whether it's your broken heart [36:24] whether it's your [36:25] rage but he just knew how to penetrate [36:30] those emotional spaces in people and [36:32] that's what I mean by joining you he [36:35] knew how to join you [36:38] emotionally in so many different [36:40] vertical of [36:42] emotion you know he was supremely [36:45] intelligent as well he was so authentic [36:49] also and so raw that I think that was [36:51] really refreshing as well he gave you [36:55] him [36:57] and he was Unapologetic so he's going to [37:00] give you his intelligence he's going to [37:03] give you his fear he's going to give you [37:05] his pain he's going to give you his [37:08] anger you know he's going to give you [37:10] his sympathy he's going to give you his [37:13] understanding right [37:16] but it was coming from [37:19] that that heart space that that that [37:22] real space within it wasn't a gimmick it [37:25] wasn't like oh I'm going to talk about [37:26] this because this is what's hot [37:29] no you know right wrong or indifferent [37:32] he gave you his truth and some truth [37:34] people could rock with with them and [37:36] some truth you couldn't you know what I [37:38] mean and um but regardless it was what [37:42] was real for him at that time he was [37:45] always [37:47] authentic but it's not easy it comes [37:49] with a cost right it comes with a [37:51] cost because it's almost the opposite of [37:54] conformity in a way authenticity yeah [37:56] exactly and he was a rebel in that way [37:59] and I think people [38:01] really I at at points in his [38:06] career you know he could speak he would [38:09] speak for the community and then at [38:11] points of his career he would speak from [38:13] that that really intimate place of [38:15] woundedness Dear Mama yeah you know that [38:19] so many of [38:20] us related to nobody was speaking to us [38:25] in that way [38:28] that could that could go from Ambitions [38:31] of a [38:32] rider to shed so many [38:34] tears to a soldier Story come [38:39] on come [38:41] on you know to I mean he had so he could [38:46] speak to us from so many different [38:48] angles that is just the evidence of [38:50] authenticity isn't it because people are [38:52] multifaceted in their nature no one is [38:54] just ambition of AI yeah we were all all [38:57] the shades all the shades right but rap [38:59] rap music especially back then was very [39:02] narrowing it was like this is how to be [39:03] a rapper so someone willing to be [39:05] authentic it's funny I've seen this over [39:07] and over again they they are the most [39:09] resonant people in the world because [39:10] they represent us in a way that a lot of [39:12] others aren't brave enough to represent [39:14] us in that's also what vulnerability [39:15] does yes that's what you do as well in [39:17] this book well thank you because because [39:19] you're willing to lay it all out we can [39:21] relate to many people will be able to [39:24] relate to many parts of you and [39:26] you know without books like this we get [39:29] narrow views and those narrow views [39:33] those are crafted by other people and [39:35] they're the least relatable narratives [39:37] right yeah and we're also [39:40] multi-dimensional you moved to LA you're [39:42] working three jobs you start trying to [39:44] climb into the ladder of Hollywood um at [39:49] this point you you meet a certain Fresh [39:54] Prince the Savior Prince the Savior [39:57] Prince oh yeah and I was quite shocked [39:59] by I think of I think of Will Smith I [40:01] think charismatic he's good-looking guy [40:05] yeah you didn't seem to think that [40:09] way no not at first yeah what did you [40:13] think at first I mean he was the fresh [40:15] prince I was like okay he's cool you [40:17] know but I was like not not not the guy [40:20] for [40:21] me you know why was he too soft I [40:25] wouldn't say he I wouldn't say soft I [40:28] would just say that he didn't seem [40:32] deep and I talk about this in the book [40:35] how at that time a troubled dude seemed [40:39] deep to me versus just [40:43] troubled it's like stay away from the [40:48] troubled right and so he wasn't troubled [40:50] it didn't seem to be right and so I was [40:53] like that's not deep like he just seems [40:56] like you know just didn't draw me in [41:00] that [41:01] way you didn't feel the same way anymore [41:03] though do the the Deep Parts he's [41:06] actually yeah exactly yeah yeah don't [41:11] judge a book by its cover that that's [41:12] that's what Will Smith told taught me it [41:14] was like not to judge a book by his [41:16] cover and I learned that you know years [41:19] later when we had an opportunity to have [41:22] you know we had a mutual friend and so [41:25] we were able ble to share some time at [41:28] Jerry's Deli over a meal and I got to [41:30] see a totally different side of him [41:33] Dwayne Dwayne Martin yeah yeah you went [41:36] to that jacket Potato Place yeah the [41:38] baked potato mhm what was it about what [41:41] did you see in will that night I found [41:42] it really interesting because one of the [41:44] things that you described seeing in him [41:46] was someone who quite was quite adamant [41:48] in taking over the world yeah he so [41:51] ambitious you know and in such a [41:54] beautiful way he had Big Dreams Big [41:57] Dreams and [42:00] um and he was so [42:04] joyful he was really joyful but [42:09] grounded and that was the part that I [42:12] missed he was grounded it was [42:16] like he' been through some things and he [42:19] was [42:20] really [42:22] intelligent so he's what you call you [42:25] know he go from the hood to the White [42:28] House and everywhere in [42:30] between right and I always find people [42:34] like that [42:36] fascinating that have a wide [42:39] range within [42:41] them places that they can go you know [42:45] you drop Will anywhere and he's going to [42:48] figure it out and fit in he had asked [42:50] you to be his onc screen girlfriend [42:51] hadn't he he okay yeah so I AUD IED for [42:56] fresh prins I think it was the second [42:58] year to pay one of his girlfriends and [43:01] they were like you're too short I was [43:04] like all right cool [43:07] right and so that was the first time [43:10] that I actually met will I came out of [43:12] the the [43:14] casting and he was you know coming into [43:17] the casting office or about to leave or [43:19] something and he was like Hey I was like [43:21] yeah what's up you know I was like no [43:24] need to talk to me they always said I'm [43:26] I'm short yeah know so I'm on my way and [43:30] then and I think I I think I was [43:32] probably about 20 um and he wanted he he [43:37] wanted me to play his you know his [43:41] girlfriend as a series regular so he [43:43] flew in to North Carolina to meet me and [43:46] I was like n I'm going to do movies now [43:50] and he was like all right cool that's a [43:52] that's a bold that's a big [43:55] rejection to reject the fresh prince of [43:57] ballad when he says you can be his sort [43:59] of recurring onscreen girlfriend in a [44:01] hit show and you say TV's not for me I'm [44:04] going to focus on movies big cool well I [44:06] had just done it I had just come off of [44:08] a different [44:09] world and I knew like I had the [44:13] protection of Debbie Allen on a [44:14] different world right and so when I [44:17] wanted to make moves Debbie was there to [44:20] help me that's not to say that I would [44:22] have that same assistance on fresh [44:25] prints and at that time they locked you [44:27] in mhm you couldn't do anything you know [44:30] what I mean they have you for six years [44:32] they got you [44:33] locked and I I just didn't want to be [44:35] locked like that and so I really wanted [44:38] to try my hand [44:41] at doing movies and then Dwayne Martin [44:45] when I turned will down Dwayne Martin [44:47] got on me because he felt the same way [44:50] you did it was just like it's Financial [44:52] Security how could you let something [44:53] like this go and you know who's to say [44:56] when your next starring Mo you know role [44:58] is going to come in and blah blah blah [44:59] blah blah and I was like but I'm so glad [45:02] that I didn't take that role because I [45:04] tell you what if I had taken that role [45:06] will and I would not have been married [45:08] and I wouldn't have had Jaden and Willow [45:10] and been Trey's bonus mom my life would [45:12] have been totally [45:13] different you sure I'm positive yeah as [45:17] in you're sure that you wouldn't have [45:19] gotten married I'm [45:21] positive because you seen yeah no you [45:24] would have seen the red flags listen [45:29] no yeah no earthquakes are hard to [45:32] predict sometimes you feel tram is ahead [45:34] of time often they come on [45:37] suddenly and in your early 20s you had [45:39] your first maybe not even your first but [45:42] what you describe in the book is your [45:43] first breakdown personal earthquake when [45:46] you're driving down the street one [45:49] day mental health and Psychiatry have [45:52] come a long way since then um I I I [45:56] would guess that at the time many people [45:58] wouldn't have been able to tell you what [46:00] that [46:00] was I had no idea what was going on me [46:04] just thinking about that moment just [46:06] it's like [46:10] um I was so overwhelmed you know and I [46:14] was like I I didn't know what was going [46:16] on with me and it came over me in an [46:19] instant I was fine one [46:21] moment I'm turning my car around to meet [46:24] a friend on the corner that you know I [46:27] saw to say and to say hello to her and [46:31] all of a sudden my body shaking all [46:34] these emotions come over me and I I'm [46:36] like I'm starting to it's like waterfall [46:40] of like tears and I I'm like and I have [46:42] no idea like my brain is not catching up [46:45] to what is happening with my body all I [46:48] know is that this waterfall this volcano [46:54] of emotions It Was Fear anger [47:00] Despair and I was like I I got and she [47:03] was looking at me like are you okay and [47:04] I was like I don't know I you know and I [47:06] get in the car and I'm trying to drive [47:10] and I'm like you can't drive pull [47:14] over and then I pull [47:16] over and then I just [47:20] remember feeling terrified to just let [47:22] it go and I let it go and then I'm like [47:26] I want to [47:28] die I want to [47:30] die and I [47:33] remember making it [47:36] home and all I could do was call my [47:39] mother and say you got to come here [47:42] I'mma kill [47:44] myself you know and I think about that [47:46] and I'm just like wow and my mother was [47:50] like she was maybe a year into her [47:54] sobriety [47:56] right and what a terrifying call to get [47:59] like if I get that call from Willow or [48:00] Jaden or Trey I'm just you know it's [48:03] like and [48:06] um so she's figuring out because she [48:09] just started a job at this [48:13] hospital I'm so terrified to be by [48:16] myself I call my H girl MC light and I [48:20] tell her like you got to come out here [48:24] I'm afraid to be alone by myself I'm [48:26] going to do something to [48:29] myself and she flies out and so she [48:32] holds me down until my mother [48:35] comes it's a crazy [48:42] moment have you figured out what what [48:45] your body was telling [48:47] you I think my body was telling me that [48:52] I think my [48:54] mind [48:56] was telling me [48:59] hey we have some things we got to pay [49:02] attention to up here enough with let's [49:06] keep it moving I'm going to make it so [49:09] you're not going to just be able to keep [49:10] it moving anymore you have some things [49:13] that you got to pay attention to some [49:15] things that need to be addressed and at [49:18] the [49:20] time like you were just talking about [49:23] nobody was talking about Mental Health [49:26] at all and [49:30] specifically mental health was [49:32] considered like a white people thing [49:36] black people don't have mental health [49:38] issues right and so suicide for sure was [49:43] a white people thing so I was real [49:47] confused I I felt [49:51] really I felt like something is is has [49:54] gone really really really wrong here [49:58] because nobody else like me feels like [50:01] this nobody knows what's going on [50:06] and maybe I'm losing my mind I'm [50:08] actually going [50:10] crazy no so it was a scary [50:15] time when I read about that it sounded [50:17] to me like you had been you've been [50:20] playing defense for just a little bit [50:21] too long yeah for sure for sure and [50:26] that's I guess one of the costs of the [50:28] the toughness right they're like as you [50:30] say we'll just keep it moving we just [50:31] keep it moving nobody a me are they no [50:35] it's going to catch you you can deal [50:37] with it or it will deal with you those [50:40] are your Cho those are your two [50:42] choices but you you did keep it moving [50:45] even in that moment it seemed it seemed [50:47] like you you carried on with the work um [50:50] I think you were you were recommended to [50:52] go and see a psychiatrist right yeah I [50:54] went to see a psychiatrist they put me [50:56] on um Prozac and I I started therapy I [51:01] started [51:02] therapy but it does still appear that [51:04] you kept it moving because you you kept [51:06] working you didn't seem to want to show [51:09] anybody outside of your sort of inner [51:10] circle hell no why absolutely [51:15] not because that's what we do we keep it [51:18] moving right and so I was like I got the [51:21] help that I need I got a doctor and I'm [51:24] on Prozac [51:27] just like right so I'm like okay I'm [51:30] doing what I'm supposed to be doing [51:32] and I can't let anybody [51:36] know and we're GNA keep this moving [51:39] because that's what we [51:41] do plaster over cracks yeah we just at [51:45] that time I'm going to take a break [51:48] because you know I'm having I'm [51:52] depressed what at that time that that [51:55] seem absolutely ridiculous quick one I [51:58] discovered a product which has changed [51:59] my life called Eight sleep this product [52:02] eight sleep which are a sponsor of this [52:04] podcast has been a revelation in my life [52:06] because the eight- sleep pod cover which [52:07] is basically a fitted sheet that goes [52:09] over your mattress controls the [52:11] temperature of your bed throughout the [52:13] night and it follows Nature's natural [52:15] Rhythm it starts cool gets colder while [52:17] you go into different phases of sleep 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zoe.com [53:55] /st you can use my exclusive code [53:59] ce10 for 10% off don't tell anybody [54:02] about that okay just for you guys did [54:04] you go back to Baltimore I did I went [54:07] back to Baltimore um and because I [54:11] was going to continue working but not [54:15] live in LA [54:16] anymore and so I bought a [54:18] farmhouse I bought a little farmhouse [54:22] on I want to say it was about 6 Acres [54:26] maybe six or nine acres if I remember [54:29] correctly and it was [54:31] um I was going to build a life there for [54:34] myself in a little quiet [54:37] corner and you know I was like all right [54:40] I'll if I need to audition I'll either [54:43] go to New York or I can just fly back [54:45] and forth from [54:46] La I will was trying to hit you up at [54:49] this this point in your life yeah he hit [54:51] me up he had just Sheree had just sent [54:55] him divorce papers and um he decides to [54:59] call me and of course me not knowing [55:01] anything about marriage thinking that [55:03] marriage you know break up of a marriage [55:05] is like breaking up with a [55:07] boyfriend he's like you know um where [55:10] are you and I'm like I'm in Baltimore [55:12] you know renovating my [55:14] house and he's like are you seeing [55:16] anybody and I'm like no he's like good [55:17] you seeing me now and I was like [55:21] what once again that kind of bold you [55:24] know approach I was just like oh clutch [55:27] my pearls a little bit so he was like [55:28] you know call me when you get back to LA [55:33] so when I got back to LA I called him [55:34] and we went out on our first [55:36] date in and around that time pack had [55:38] been sentenced to Rikers right he'd been [55:41] sent sent to jail for he been sent to at [55:44] that point in time he was at Rikers but [55:46] then he was on his way to damura which [55:48] is a horrific place where they send [55:51] terrorists yeah usually yeah I think the [55:54] 9/11 some of the people that were [55:55] involved with 911 or the well Trade [55:57] Center bombings were sent to damura um [55:59] while he's in [56:03] jail while he's in jail what do you have [56:09] here [56:12] oh yeah now as I slip from grace and the [56:16] world has turned against me a few claim [56:18] to have love for me but once again you [56:20] show your love after deep reflection and [56:22] spiritual awakening I have come to [56:24] realize the friend love and soulmate was [56:27] there all the time I have not seen or [56:29] felt from anywhere anyone the intensity [56:32] and loyalty that you have shown me that [56:35] is why I want to commit myself to you I [56:37] want to marry you he sends you that [56:39] letter yeah he it's much longer letter [56:42] than that but that's the words that I [56:45] put in the book a marriage proposal [56:48] that's why he was in Rikers when I went [56:50] to go see him in Rikers and Rikers is [56:53] actually [56:56] that's a [56:58] really danur might be where they put [57:06] terrorists Rikers is [57:11] like I remember going to see him there [57:14] and [57:19] um he was in such bad shape you know and [57:24] um I Rikers I [57:30] like yeah Rikers [57:35] was bad danur yeah terrorists are there [57:40] but far more Humane conditions than I [57:43] would say [57:49] Rikers it feels it feels like the [57:51] emotion is still right on the surface [57:52] with you when you think back to these [57:55] these moments in your life oh [57:59] yeah it feels like I just came back from [58:02] seeing Pac at Rikers and I had to leave [58:05] him there was just like [58:09] yesterday but I'm also in a very raw [58:12] place in my life right now as I'm [58:14] thawing out as I'm dismantling my [58:19] defenses you know I call it the thaw out [58:21] so I'm I'm in a really raw place [58:24] obiously Pac was he gets out of jail and [58:27] sugaright I mean talking about timing I [58:30] think it was like a week ago or two [58:31] weeks ago that someone's been convicted [58:33] for Tupac's [58:35] murder a lot of emotions yeah how did [58:39] you feel when you heard about the um [58:40] conviction or that someone had that [58:42] arrested an arrest had been [58:44] made [58:48] um I was like I was [58:51] glad that an arrest had been made this [58:54] this was someone [58:57] who we had known had been in the car he [59:00] he had had [59:01] done some Street interviews about it you [59:05] know um and I was just hoping I was like [59:09] well I hope they're bringing him in [59:11] because we're going to get some [59:13] other questions [59:16] answered [59:18] so you know my hope is that we'll [59:21] get more questions answered [59:25] in the book you question but then you [59:28] confirm that pack Tupac knew how you [59:31] felt about him when he passed away [59:34] because you and him hadn't been speaking [59:37] no and I think there's a really [59:39] important lesson in in this for all of [59:41] us [59:42] yeah yeah we had a we had a [59:46] huge [59:48] fight huge it was one of the biggest [59:51] fights we had ever [59:53] had and and [59:55] [Music] [59:57] um and it was about how he had been [60:01] living you [60:03] know and uh I [60:10] really at that time you know really had [60:13] to let him know my position that I just [60:17] felt [60:21] like you know where he was sitting with [60:23] everything was just [60:30] just it wasn't going to end up [60:35] well [60:38] right [60:40] and we [60:42] had a magnin I mean it [60:47] was just beyond the two of us just at [60:52] each [60:52] other um [60:55] and I was just like [ __ ] [60:58] that I'm not calling him this time he's [61:00] going to have to call me he was way out [61:03] of [61:03] line so I really dug my heels heels in [61:07] the ground in regards to like [61:11] nah you I let my pride I let my ego come [61:14] in I really took for granted that he [61:16] would be living forever like he had [61:19] already survived so much like it never [61:23] like I never I I looked at Pac as being [61:25] Invincible at this [61:27] point you know cuz he survived so much [61:29] even so much that people don't know [61:32] about you know [61:36] um but just like I say in the book I'm [61:38] like [61:39] man don't do [61:42] it don't do it don't don't don't hold on [61:46] to like that prideful part of yourself [61:50] you know with someone you really care [61:52] about like no you know he going to have [61:55] to call me this time you know I was like [61:57] nope was that the last time you spoke to [62:00] him that was the last time I spoke to [62:01] him that was the last time I spoke to [62:06] him I was the last time I spoke to him [62:09] and you know what's [62:11] crazy it meant absolutely [62:15] nothing it meant absolutely nothing and [62:18] so that's the test I always have I'm [62:20] like okay you're in this beef with [62:23] somebody will this beef matter on your [62:28] deathbed and then right away I'm like [62:30] nope let me give him a call you know [62:32] what I'm [62:35] saying that's my that's my [62:40] test almost a year later he gets shot in [62:43] Las Vegas you get a phone call while [62:45] you're filming on set that he's from I [62:48] believe from his mother um Shakur and [62:51] saying that he's in hospital in a coma [62:54] and a few days after that you find out [62:56] that he's passed away yeah I was on my [63:00] way you know fa was like no rush he's [63:03] going to be [63:05] fine um he had his fiance there with him [63:09] and his [63:10] family [63:12] um she was like so you [63:16] know come after your trip in New York so [63:19] I was on my way to [63:22] him and [63:25] my girlfriend Fawn came to the door and [63:27] she I I knew as soon as I saw her face [63:30] that he was [63:34] gone oh I know that [63:37] picture yep that was Thanksgiving he [63:42] came to LA to spend Thanksgiving with [63:45] me and we were at one of my friends [63:47] house you look like brother and sister [63:50] yeah we look like brother and sister [63:52] because that's what we were yeah he came [63:55] to Thanksgiving to spend Thanksgiving [63:56] with [63:58] me we talked about mental health earlier [64:01] do you do you know how to grieve someone [64:03] the loss of someone like like that in [64:05] your life no I'm still I'm still um [64:09] working out my relationship with [64:12] grief [64:15] actually yeah I haven't I haven't really [64:19] I yeah I'm [64:22] still working that out [64:26] because this chapter of your life was [64:29] loss mhm unor loss chapter 12 of your [64:33] book I've got this other picture that I [64:35] found that I thought was um [64:38] relevant oh now you do you know why this [64:41] is relevant I do Maxine and and Tupac [64:45] are both in that picture same [64:53] picture [65:03] do you have a [65:08] tissue [65:17] thanks [65:20] thank you give nice [65:23] hugs [65:27] um yeah that's [65:30] a [65:47] yeah [65:53] sorry [65:55] yeah I [65:56] am I lost Maxine and Pac back to [66:01] back so like to you know this picture to [66:04] be flanked by [66:08] them yeah I lost them back to [66:11] back maxing was a good friend of yours [66:16] um pack was your brother yeah and she [66:19] was like my sister you know she um [66:25] I met Maxine on Jason's [66:28] Lyric and [66:31] uh we became like super tight and she [66:37] lived in Canada and [66:39] so she wanted to come to Hollywood [66:43] and make a career for herself so I told [66:46] her that she could come live with me so [66:48] she came to to live with me [66:51] um she we we feel feel as though she [66:58] um had a [67:00] misdiagnosis that she had some kind of [67:02] thyroid [67:03] disorder that really [67:07] um disrupted [67:11] her psyche mhm and um she ended [67:17] up jumping off her mother's balcony [67:20] committed she committed [67:22] suicide um [67:27] so that was really [67:32] tough it seems it seems unimaginable [67:35] that that chapter and season of your [67:37] life could be filled with so much loss [67:39] and so much complicated [67:41] loss you know because in all these [67:44] situations as you write about in the [67:46] book there [67:47] are reflections where you you say in the [67:50] book If I you know you're left with this [67:52] feeling if I'd done this I could maybe I [67:54] should have done it like this or I wish [67:56] I'd treat that situation differently in [67:58] hindsight as we know is a wonderful [67:59] thing isn't it right you know and I've [68:01] sat here with a lot of people that have [68:02] lost a lot of people by by Suicide and [68:05] they all have the same Reflections yeah [68:07] they all have that last phone call with [68:08] the person where they had to put up a [68:10] boundary and yeah you know I've sat here [68:13] even in LA in that chair with I remember [68:16] BOS um her her partner at the time [68:19] calling and saying listen if you don't [68:20] come and do this I'll jump off this [68:22] bridge and then he does and yeah [68:25] it's like that existential [68:29] disappointment of just life [68:32] being what it is it's like grieving that [68:40] grieving it's like she in [68:43] a she went from this like [68:48] happy person like having this [68:52] condition that just [68:55] right and so I just sometimes I just [68:58] go this is when I just have to like [69:01] reconcile with [69:05] God it's like wow God like you really be [69:09] doing some stuff like you know what I [69:10] mean and it's like and sometimes I get [69:13] in grief around what life [69:18] is and then I have to make peace with it [69:26] feels thinking about your story it [69:31] feels confusing that God could seemingly [69:34] hand someone so much you know wonderful [69:37] career wonderful family all of those [69:39] things but at the same time and maybe [69:42] maybe there's a relationship maybe [69:43] there's a relationship between the two [69:45] because had you not had the had you not [69:48] come from where you came from maybe you [69:50] wouldn't have had all the wonderful [69:52] things that you have but also had you [69:53] not come from where you came from maybe [69:55] you wouldn't have experienced all the [69:57] loss that you've experienced MH so maybe [69:59] there's a relationship between the two [70:01] because I've not experienced that loss [70:02] but I don't come from where you come [70:03] from so I didn't lose friends growing up [70:06] right I didn't lose friends in in the in [70:08] my 20s either right [70:11] um having all the different experiences [70:13] that I've had as painful as some of them [70:16] are it gives me the opportunity to join [70:19] people in a certain [70:22] manner you know and in really powerful [70:27] places you know like I have a beautiful [70:30] friendship with [70:33] um Lauren London and she is the [70:38] Widow of nipy [70:42] hustle and because of the loss that I [70:45] went through with [70:51] Pac I could reach out to her [70:54] and I could go [70:57] hey anytime you need [71:00] anything anytime you need to talk I'm [71:04] here and Lauren's quite like me defenses [71:08] you know what I mean but I just kept [71:11] walking closer and closer and I just say [71:12] all that to say [71:15] that we've been able to meet each other [71:18] in a certain place because [71:20] of the type of losses we've had [71:25] mhm that can really [71:28] create beautiful [71:32] connection you feel me I feel you yeah [71:38] so there are blessings and [71:42] pain you just got to you just got [71:45] to know that to be true and wait for [71:47] that door to [71:49] open you know and that's just one one [71:52] tiny example example of [71:55] like the blessings that I've found in a [71:59] lot of the loss that I've had in my life [72:02] in general you know there's almost an [72:05] irony or a paradox in the fact that your [72:07] pain caused a disconnection but then the [72:10] pain caused connection [72:14] deep [72:16] because [72:19] heartbreak there's this beautiful scene [72:22] in heartbreak which is like it breaks [72:23] you [72:27] open breaks you open and you got two [72:29] places that you can [72:30] go you can go into the deep Wells of [72:35] Darkness or you can go into the deep [72:38] Wells of [72:40] light and I've been to [72:45] both and I've learned I ain't trying to [72:48] be over here no more you know what I [72:51] mean so I always use [72:55] heartbreak discontent [72:58] pain to help me search for bright [73:01] light and beautiful blessings within [73:05] them in the opener of the book you [73:08] described in the prol the life that the [73:11] world would have seen in over the next [73:13] sort of 10 years of your life before you [73:15] before you turn 40 you describe the you [73:19] know your super successful Hollywood [73:22] actress you've got this husband who is [73:25] you know Will Smith and he's a super [73:27] successful Hollywood actor you got these [73:29] kids you got the family you got the [73:30] house you got it all yeah externally [73:33] you're killing the game so internally [73:34] you must be killing the game right [73:36] internally you know I was spiritually [73:42] bankrupt right I I find it so I found it [73:45] so interesting hearing you describe the [73:47] relationship that both you and will had [73:49] as it relates to conflict resolution [73:51] uhuh I find it so interesting cuz I've [73:54] come to learn over the last couple of [73:55] years that the way we deal with conflict [73:57] predicts the long-term health of our [73:58] relationships oh God yeah and I think [74:01] there's this professor professor I think [74:02] it's called professor John gotman who [74:04] studied couples and tried to figure out [74:06] why they end up in divorce and he says [74:08] the number one reason is because they [74:10] build contempt [74:11] contempt that's all about conflict [74:13] resolution how you're dealing with your [74:14] [ __ ] yes absolutely now you remind [74:18] me of my partner because she wants [74:20] connection she wants to talk she wants [74:22] to resolve things she's you know she [74:24] wants to deal with the emotions [74:26] I would like to not I will buy you [74:30] something to make sure that you're safe [74:31] right I'll pay for your stuff right but [74:33] I just want to work yeah and I and [74:36] that's the way you [74:39] describe and so I resonated with Will in [74:42] that but I I you sharing how you felt [74:45] throughout that story helped me to [74:46] understand my partner and all the [74:48] conversations she's had with me about [74:50] what she actually wants from me and me [74:52] misunderstanding [74:54] her because we have different Love [74:55] Languages yeah and your love language [74:57] starts when you're a kid right yeah for [75:00] sure and wills does too [75:04] absolutely what was that conflict of [75:06] Your Love Languages Wills you know was [75:09] very much like yours it's like M I want [75:11] to work I want to work hard so that you [75:14] can have everything in the world that [75:16] you'd ever want you know I'm you're not [75:19] going to need for [75:21] anything right am I Lov like was like [75:23] but I just want you to be here with me I [75:26] don't need all of that stuff I want to [75:28] look in your eyes and you know feel your [75:30] love and feel your protection here with [75:33] me [75:35] and you know it was like that connection [75:38] I wanted to feel like I wanted to make a [75:41] masterpiece out of our connection you [75:44] know and he wanted to make a masterpiece [75:46] out of you know the the the life [75:50] itself right and neither's wrong [75:54] wrong neither is wrong and that's what I [75:58] had to [75:58] learn that that that's where we we've [76:01] come to now and understanding neither [76:04] one of those wants are [76:08] wrong how do you balance [76:10] them because it can't be one or the [76:14] other how do we balance it like yin and [76:17] yang everything about life is [76:21] balance so I just want you to know that [76:23] you're your [76:24] partner you talking to me yeah just I [76:27] just want you to know that because in in [76:29] as couples we get into these power [76:31] struggles no my way is right no my way [76:33] is right well if you didn't have this [76:35] you know you know it gets into all of [76:38] that right and it's like [76:41] stop it's not about anybody being right [76:44] or [76:45] wrong how do you get the balance of it [76:50] that's it right and so [76:54] yeah it took Will and I three decades [76:58] CHR I haven't got that kind of time yeah [77:01] three decades okay three decades that's [77:05] what we'll get to that will get you it [77:09] doesn't have to be that you know it's [77:11] like do it [77:13] now cuz that's what I've said to my [77:15] girlfriend is I've told her that I've [77:19] got this opportunity now because things [77:20] are going well in my career so I just [77:22] want to f for now and then we're going [77:24] to have all of our lives together I [77:26] actually said that to her one day and [77:27] she reminded me of it a week later when [77:28] we were arguing yeah I was like we're [77:29] going to have all of our lives together [77:31] so like we'll connect later yeah we'll [77:33] connect later it's like what kind of [77:35] foolishness is that you know what I mean [77:38] and I'm going to tell you like [77:42] this I bet you when you're on your [77:45] deathbed you're not going to think [77:48] about whatever it is you're trying to [77:51] accomplish and achieve [77:54] what do you think you're going to think [77:55] about most when you're on your [77:57] deathbed how you were loved and how you [77:59] loved no 100% okay and even as I said it [78:04] I thought about Tupac and how you never [78:06] know how long you've got left with [78:08] someone you don't know why would you [78:09] ever want to wait and put that off it's [78:13] an excuse though isn't it it is an [78:14] excuse to justify my own toxic or holism [78:18] well you know I wouldn't call it toxic [78:21] I'm I'm I'm always careful with this [78:23] word toxic that we're thrown around [78:25] right cuz we're all so wounded exactly [78:28] and it's not [78:31] listen when intimacy makes us have to [78:34] look at our [78:38] [ __ ] right it's easy to go I piss you [78:42] off I got you this diamond ring I got [78:44] you this you know beautiful bag I'm [78:46] gonna take you on this trip it's like [78:49] right but like real emotional intimacy [78:54] see we got to we got to deal with our [78:57] stuff a lot of stuff comes up [79:01] there but that's where that's where [79:04] connection and love and true [79:11] happiness true fulfillment is what's [79:13] going on in our inner [79:16] landscape you talk of this loss of [79:18] identity when you married will and this [79:23] quote I wrote down it feels like I can't [79:25] grasp my own Journey at times I feel [79:27] resentful and angry I don't know what to [79:30] do about it you and will had these two [79:32] sort of different Visions for happiness [79:34] in your lives together his being that he [79:36] wanted to take over the world as a [79:37] global you know movie star all the [79:39] things that he is um and within there [79:41] you start to lose yourself a little bit [79:42] it seems this word [79:44] resentful yeah very interesting word [79:48] yeah can you give color to that word why [79:51] you why you chose to use that word cuz [79:53] it's true you know it was [79:56] like I [79:58] felt as though at that [80:03] time all right if if I'm I I want to [80:07] help you do all of those things I'm here [80:10] to help you with that [80:12] right [80:14] um and I'm like and in [80:17] return I should get a bit of what I want [80:20] which is [80:21] connection [80:23] right and so you just for me just giving [80:26] and giving and giving and giving and [80:28] giving and forgiving [80:30] forgetting well not even forgetting not [80:33] realizing [80:36] that I [80:38] was abandoning [80:41] myself in the hopes that if I just keep [80:44] pouring into this if I just keep pouring [80:46] into him if I keep pouring into his [80:48] dream I'm going to eventually get what I [80:51] want right and that's a false idea in so [80:56] many ways right the I and so many of us [80:59] do [81:02] that if Will looked back and was trying [81:05] to give me whatever the hell it was I [81:07] was asking [81:08] for it wouldn't he wouldn't have been [81:10] able to accomplish it anyway because if [81:13] I'm not connected to myself if I don't [81:15] have a good relationship with [81:18] me there's nothing he can [81:21] do [81:23] so I was going to be asked out anyway [81:25] you know what I'm saying so it's like [81:27] that's part of the [81:28] journey there's no right or wrong [81:30] everybody's always trying to find the [81:32] good guy or bad guy in people's stories [81:33] there's no good guys or bad guys we're [81:36] all wounded trying to figure this [ __ ] [81:39] out you know and so it took me a long [81:42] time to realize it is not his [81:45] responsibility to make you happy he [81:50] can't it's impossible [81:54] possible but it took me [81:56] forever hardheaded stubborn you know [82:00] because that romantic idea and that's [82:03] why I talk about checking the [82:05] boxes it's like I did everything I was [82:07] supposed to [82:10] do you get to have your dream how come [82:13] I'm not having mine and that's because [82:15] will was doing what he wanted to [82:16] do he was making himself happy he was [82:19] making himself [82:21] happy and he says that to you doesn't he [82:24] he says you when you separate he says he [82:27] wants you to go and he's like go go go [82:31] make yourself happy go make yourself [82:33] happy and how did you receive [82:36] that not [82:40] well not well because you know there can [82:44] be truth but you know what I'm saying [82:46] it's like how [82:48] we you know I think it was very true but [82:52] I think think at that particular point [82:53] of time I was just still really [82:55] resentful I'm just like you know oh so I [82:59] helped you get your happiness now you [83:01] just going to you know throw me to the [83:04] curb and you know I got to do it all on [83:06] my own now you know but that's the truth [83:09] I had to do it on my own you know just [83:12] like he did you got to do it on your [83:16] own you got to do it on your [83:18] own you got to do it on your [83:21] own [83:24] and a lot of that's what this this is [83:26] about and me detoxing [83:30] from [83:31] needing fulfillment and validation [83:34] outside of [83:36] myself detoxing from needing it from [83:38] will my marriage my [83:43] family a career like I had to get to the [83:46] Bare Bones of [83:48] Jada and walk what I call the exiled [83:51] lands [83:53] and those exiled lands are going into [83:55] the crevices of you know those places [83:59] within that were holding me back from [84:03] myself all the fears all of the false [84:07] information and false ideas of what life [84:10] is and what a marriage is supposed to be [84:14] and you know who I was supposed to be [84:17] what a wife is like all of it [84:20] perfectionism perfectionism [84:24] and then I just went off to be [84:26] completely [84:27] imperfect and took joy in that because [84:30] being in Hollywood I mean this is a [84:32] place that values the appearance of [84:34] perfectionism I think every looks [84:36] perfect on the surface yeah and I [84:41] think it's not a healthy [84:44] idea it's just not [84:46] healthy and it's not true and nobody can [84:50] live up to that you know which is why [84:54] I've been dismantling that need to be [84:56] perfect for myself and that's been a [84:59] painful [85:00] ride [85:03] but leading up to your 40th birthday [85:06] which is also where the book starts [85:09] MH I I read the first pages of the [85:12] prologue and I couldn't quite believe [85:13] what I was reading because the place [85:17] you're at in your life this chronic [85:19] state of discontent that you describe [85:23] I I remember when I got to the chapter [85:26] 17 in the book which is no socker Mom [85:29] here that was the first time I had to [85:31] stop reading because it was a lot of lot [85:32] for me to take M hearing that that's [85:35] what was going on in your head and your [85:36] mind that's the way you viewed life you [85:38] didn't see any path forward for you um [85:41] you're 39 years old um apparently you [85:45] know on the surface it seems like you've [85:46] got everything that anyone would dream [85:47] of having but internally there's this [85:50] chronic state of discontent tent [85:58] yeah if I was I often say to people if I [86:01] was a fly on the wall but if I was a fly [86:02] inside the walls [86:05] yeah what were you what was going [86:07] through your mind 39 years old about to [86:10] turn 40 oh I was in a very very dark [86:17] place very dark [86:20] place just I remember the I read where [86:22] you said if I got to 400 p.m. every [86:25] day I was like I made [86:28] it I made it and even that was like so [86:33] hard I mean you know I was talking to my [86:36] mother this morning because she just [86:37] read the book and she said I can't [86:38] believe you didn't talk about how you [86:40] woke up every day [86:42] crying really yeah and I was like you [86:45] know Ma I I just I think it was enough [86:48] to tell people that I was looking for a [86:50] cliff to drive off of [86:52] you know and what she brought up was [86:59] like she knew I was unhappy but she [87:02] didn't know [87:05] why so it wasn't that people around me [87:07] didn't know that I was really [87:12] unhappy it's just that everybody [87:14] believed what I believed which is why it [87:16] was so hard for me to talk about which [87:17] is like you've got everything what are [87:19] you unhappy [87:21] about [87:22] right and so that's how I was feeling [87:24] you've got everything what are you [87:26] unhappy [87:29] about and that was just I had so much [87:33] shame around that because I didn't [87:37] understand and even then there wasn't a [87:40] lot of conversation around mental [87:45] health and so I was just like [ __ ] it I [87:49] can't keep doing [87:51] this I went [87:54] out and it was just a really really dark [87:59] time when you say you were looking for a [88:01] cliff to drive off of you're not saying [88:03] that theoretically or as a metaphor no [88:06] I'm saying I was looking to the point [88:08] where I was like big sir I knew exactly [88:12] the route to [88:13] drive and it's this really narrow route [88:16] and sometimes it gets really foggy there [88:18] at night and you I'm not I'm not making [88:21] it out of that out of that [88:25] drop I I remember driving [88:28] that one time going to Big Sir because I [88:31] was looking like here like on mahand I [88:34] was like these drops aren't going to [88:36] like I need a drop that I'm not making [88:38] it [88:40] back I don't want to be disfigured I [88:42] don't want I want out and I knew I had [88:45] to make it look like an accident because [88:47] I did not want my kids to think that I [88:49] had committed [88:51] suicide [88:57] no I was I [88:59] was yeah I was in a lot of pain I was in [89:02] a really really dark place and when [89:03] you're in that place you just can't see [89:06] your way [89:08] out and you really think I really [89:11] thought something was really wrong with [89:13] me [89:15] because what I was feeling wasn't [89:20] matching the ex exterior of my [89:24] life so I really did feel like I I was [89:27] just born [89:31] broken and I was just wired in a way [89:34] that [89:36] just what was the [89:38] truth if that's how you felt what was in [89:41] hindsight now what do you know to be the [89:43] truth of that emotion and that state of [89:44] your life 39 40 years [89:46] old what was actually going [89:50] on that [89:53] I really feel like that sometimes when [89:54] we get into these states [89:57] of wanting to [90:00] die you know for those of us who have [90:02] had like suicidal thoughts and what have [90:04] you sometimes it is chemical that's a [90:07] different thing I think mine was more [90:10] psychological something is asking to die [90:13] but not [90:16] you and it's a it's it's a different way [90:20] of [90:23] looking at [90:25] things right and so and it's it is a it [90:29] is a [90:31] extreme shift in [90:33] which I had to get out of my cycle of [90:38] self-hatred [90:40] I was in a psycle of self-hatred that I [90:43] didn't even [90:45] know cuz we're unconscious of [90:48] it so the mind is tricking us you know [90:51] what I mean [90:52] we got to be careful with this this [90:54] isn't as reliable as we think you know [90:59] and so [91:01] um but I was in a I was in a cycle of [91:04] self-hatred and it wasn't until thank [91:08] God for my son that I was you know he [91:11] introduced [91:13] me [91:15] um his friend's father did iasa and they [91:19] happen to be talking about it and they [91:21] talk to me about it Jaden came in the [91:23] kitchen he's like you got to sit down [91:25] with Moises and Mato you got to hear [91:26] about this experience ma that their dad [91:29] had was Jaden saying that intentionally [91:31] did he know that you needed that no he [91:33] wasn't saying that in he was just [91:34] curious he was just he knows I'm curious [91:36] he knows I'm a Seeker right [91:39] right that was [91:41] divine and so I went and talked to them [91:43] and I was like hey is your dad in town [91:45] and then their dad came and I talked to [91:47] him and he I was like I need that [91:53] and then the universe opened up a door [91:55] for me to have my own [91:59] ceremony for days of like [92:05] intense tense ceremony but that's when I [92:07] got to see that cycle of self-hatred I [92:09] was like this is [92:12] you these are your thoughts this is how [92:15] you feel about yourself this is the [92:18] problem and so the medicine really [92:20] showed me [92:25] this [92:28] pit of self-hatred I was in and it [92:31] helped me get out of it chapter 20 of [92:36] the book you you titled surrender yeah [92:39] surrender is an interesting word why is [92:41] surrender so important in your journey [92:43] you have to surrender everything you [92:45] think you are and everything you think [92:46] you know I've spoken to a lot of people [92:49] that have done Alcoholics Anonymous and [92:51] they talk about the importance of [92:52] surrender yeah it's like surrendering [92:56] you know for [92:57] me also surrendering to a power a higher [93:01] power and that's a constant that's every [93:05] day I have to remind myself and deep in [93:08] my surrender to a power far greater than [93:13] myself chapter 21 the holy joke the holy [93:16] slap and the holy [93:19] lessons it's interesting because there's [93:21] Sim ities between chapter 19 and chapter [93:23] 21 in that you took a lot of the blame [93:28] for [93:30] situations chapter 19 the entanglement [93:32] conversation yeah because when you watch [93:35] that clip online at the at the red table [93:37] will looks tired and he looks sad and he [93:40] says that thing he says I'm G to get you [93:41] back yeah it did it made it look like [93:44] you had cheated on him or something I [93:45] have to like check the facts because if [93:47] you see that clip in isolation it looks [93:49] like you cheated on will or something [93:50] which is not what happened [93:52] yeah but you put that out anyway you you [93:54] could have not put that out I know do [93:56] you regret putting that out no you don't [93:58] I don't if I didn't put that out I [94:01] wouldn't have [94:04] seen that next place of healing that I [94:08] needed because I can take so much [94:13] like [94:15] discomfort it wasn't until I saw how the [94:19] people around me were affected [94:22] did I mean my mother my kids my friends [94:28] people [94:31] like they were like how could you do [94:35] this and I was [94:37] like well I just wanted to end [94:40] everything you [94:42] know will wasn't ready for the world to [94:46] know that we weren't together and that [94:48] we were living separate lives and I just [94:52] took it because I just wanted to stop I [94:54] just want it to [94:56] end people are like no my mother was [95:00] like what are you she was like you need [95:03] to get your ass in [95:05] therapy she's like you are codependent [95:08] as [95:09] hell you know and everybody was just so [95:13] and then how people that love me so much [95:16] were affected by that [95:19] time I don't think [95:22] it would have [95:23] penetrated and for me to really look at [95:27] that part of [95:28] myself if it hadn't been for how the [95:32] people around me [95:34] reacted because I don't really care [95:36] about public in that way like most [95:38] people do I don't whatever because I [95:41] understand the chaos and the just [95:42] absurdity of all of that but people who [95:45] love [95:47] me I needed that mirror to [95:50] see [95:53] that place of healing that needed to [95:56] happen in me in the dynamic Within [95:58] Myself what was that Dynamic within [96:00] yourself just like martydom oh okay [96:03] throwing yourself under the yeah that [96:05] martyrdom that I'm I will martyrdom the [96:08] holy slap yeah you you you write about [96:11] in the book how you didn't realize that [96:12] will had actually slapped Chris yeah [96:14] until much later you thought it you [96:16] suspected maybe it was a skit or it was [96:18] a skit and then I realized it wasn't but [96:20] I didn't think that he actually made [96:21] contact with Chris looked like he ducked [96:23] it social media grabbed onto this eye [96:26] roll mhm and they um social media [96:30] believed that that ey roll was some kind [96:32] of like go get him will yeah and even if [96:36] it was it was like I can't force will to [96:38] do anything you know and you will [96:40] weren't together we weren't together as [96:43] you know we were family I was there with [96:46] him as family but we weren't together at [96:48] that time were you surprised by the [96:50] reaction [96:51] and to that moment both for you but also [96:54] for [96:57] will yes and [96:59] no I was surprised at how much I knew I [97:03] was going to get blamed but like I [97:05] didn't think that it was going to be I I [97:08] mean it was insane you know it was like [97:10] wow um but I knew I knew we would have I [97:15] knew it was going to be a storm in the [97:17] book you say protection is your love [97:18] language mhm he protected you didn't he [97:22] um did you see that as a Act of [97:26] love you know it's a really complicated [97:31] moment it's a really complex moment I [97:34] would say yes and no in a certain manner [97:37] you [97:38] know [97:40] um but I definitely think in his [97:44] way but it was it was so much more it [97:48] wasn't about me that's why it's complex [97:52] right it's like it was about a lot more [97:54] than [97:57] just that moment a lot more than just me [98:01] that's what I know you know what I mean [98:03] cuz you know well and you know where [98:04] he's come from and yeah and I I there [98:07] was a lot that was stirring up for him [98:09] at that time because of emancipation and [98:12] he and Chris have their own history [98:15] going back to the ' 80s yeah going back [98:17] to the 80s and it's a deep [98:19] one J [98:21] thank you thank you for writing this [98:24] book because it's it's not until we [98:27] understand people's context that we [98:29] understand them and when we understand [98:31] them we realize that they are just so [98:33] much like us yeah in the wounded the [98:36] imperfect the survival the defense and [98:39] all of those things and that's exactly [98:41] what I got from Reading worthy um but [98:44] also as I said to you I think before we [98:46] started recording there were so many [98:47] moments in there that acted as the [98:49] advice that no one around me could have [98:51] given me because they've not walked in [98:52] those stairs you act as an elder to me [98:54] in the book because you you've helped me [98:56] to figure out and shine a light on a [98:59] certain area of my behavior which comes [99:02] from um maybe a wound that I have that [99:05] is going to hold me back and lead me to [99:06] a place I don't want to go to I promise [99:08] you yes yeah exactly and you're right [99:11] you use the word breadcrumbs but that's [99:12] exactly what the book is it's these [99:14] these it's your story but throughout [99:16] your story you leave these little [99:18] nuggets of wisdom and lessons that will [99:20] guide those that read the book to a [99:22] better place in their own lives and they [99:24] can subjectively Define what that better [99:26] place is but the wisdom is enduring [99:28] because the wisdom is human and it's [99:29] true so there's something in there for [99:31] everybody it's one of the best books [99:32] I've ever read because of the the [99:33] writing style the vividness I I felt [99:35] like I was in your grandmother's Garden [99:37] I felt like I was there at um all of the [99:40] key moments when when you have what I [99:42] describe what I thought was a panic [99:44] attack on the highway and those moments [99:46] the moments of sadness the vividness of [99:48] the writing is so is so profound but the [99:51] vulnerability of the book is the most [99:52] impressive thing it's easy not to be [99:55] vulnerable it's easy to paint a [99:56] narrative that is self- serving but [99:58] that's not what you do here you seem to [100:00] be in the pursuit of the truth and [100:02] that's exactly what I take away from [100:03] this book so thank you so much J thank [100:05] you thank you for creating a safe space [100:08] at your gray [100:11] table and uh for holding my tears today [100:15] I appreciate that thank [100:18] [Music] [100:19] you as you may know this podcast is [100:21] sponsored by hu if you're living under a [100:23] rock you might have missed that I [100:24] discovered hu's RTD about four years ago [100:26] hu's RTD is basically a meal in a bottle [100:30] it is nutritionally complete it contains [100:32] 26 of your essential vitamins and [100:35] minerals it's got your protein in there [100:36] 20 grams of protein it's got slow relase [100:39] energy in there in the form of those [100:40] slow release carbs it's just [100:42] nutritionally complete not only have I [100:44] got a good relationship with it in terms [100:45] of health but it saves my life in 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