Author Michael Easter Blames Modern Comforts for Rising Health Decline

作家Michael Easter：现代舒适环境正在加剧人类健康衰退 消除日常的身体阻力与环境挑战不仅会削弱人体机能，还会加速慢性疼痛和心理困扰。 在这场内容广泛的对话中，Michael Easter探讨了现代物质过剩与舒适生活如何与人类进化生物学相冲突，进而引发慢性背痛、身体机能衰退和心理不适等问题。他强调了负重徒步（rucking）和户外跑步等自然运动在生理与认知方面的益处，同时倡导通过禁食、主动体验不适以及践行“2%心态”来建立身心韧性。此外，Easter还探讨了享乐适应、资源稀缺如何推动创新，以及为何接纳阻力与不确定性对长期健康和获得真正的充实感至关重要。 减重和身体成分主要由总热量平衡决定，而禁食等时间限制手段简化了热量管理，同时避免了多天激进禁食可能带来的肌肉流失风险。 (48:59) 体力消耗的极限在很大程度上是心理层面的，因为大脑充当着保护性调节器的角色，在远未达到真正生理极限之前就会发出疲劳信号。 (50:17) 主动体验不适并置身于严苛环境中，能够带来新的认知视角，并让人对日常的现代便利产生由衷的感激。 (54:03) 享乐适应与“问题蔓延”现象导致人们在实际困难减少时扩大对问题的定义，从而造成生活水平虽提升但幸福感却降低的现象。 (57:19) 人类生物学机能专门围绕运动和负重演化而来，这使得现代久坐少动的习惯极大地危害了整体生理健康。 (62:42)

Author and journalist Michael Easter argues that modern society's systematic elimination of physical, dietary, and environmental friction has created an evolutionary mismatch, fueling chronic illness, compulsive behavior, and widespread dissatisfaction. To survive and thrive in an environment of effortless abundance, Easter asserts that individuals must deliberately cultivate short-term discomfort, physical exertion, and mindful restraint. The Evolutionary Mismatch of Modern Abundance (0:00) Human biology evolved to survive scarcity by conserving energy and craving calorie-dense foods. Today, that wiring clashes with an automated environment. While contemporary hunter-gatherers like the Hadza and the Tsimané log upwards of 20,000 steps daily and maintain pristine cardiovascular health on diets of whole, single-ingredient foods, average Westerners walk only 4,000 to 5,000 steps. In metabolic ward trials by the National Institutes of Health, participants given ultra-processed diets consumed an extra 500 calories per day compared to whole-food diets matched for calories and macronutrients. This friction deficit extends to social and sensory environments. Human cognitive architecture evolved around small groups capped near Dunbar’s number of 150 individuals; exceeding this threshold in dense urban centers correlates with elevated baseline stress and lower self-reported happiness. Environmental noise has grown fourfold since the pre-industrial era, keeping urban populations in persistent low-grade physiological stress. World Health Organization research links noise pollution to 2,000 annual heart disease deaths in Europe, while data indicates a 28% rise in anti-anxiety prescriptions for every 10-decibel increase in neighborhood noise. The Scarcity Loop and Engineered Compulsions (25:11) To explain modern struggles with moderation, Easter details the 'Scarcity Loop'—an evolutionary mechanism comprising opportunity, unpredictable rewards, and quick repeatability. Originally developed to drive unpredictable food foraging, this behavioral loop is now embedded in slot machines, social media feeds, and trading platforms. Research by behavioral psychologist Thomas Zentall demonstrated that animals, including pigeons, consistently choose unpredictable reward mechanisms over steady, predictable food sources, even when gambling yields less total food over time. Technological and industrial design accelerates this loop through near-misses and consumption velocity. When casinos replaced mechanical pull handles with buttons, gambling speed climbed from 400–500 to roughly 900 plays per hour. The industrial food system adopted similar dynamics via the 'Three V’s' (value, variety, and velocity), stripping whole foods of fiber and water so they can be consumed rapidly without triggering satiety. In Australian Satiety Index testing, plain boiled potatoes proved the most filling food per calorie, whereas ultra-processed croissants ranked near the bottom, requiring seven croissants to match the fullness delivered by a single boiled potato. Restoring Capacity Through Rucking and Friction (64:40) Easter reframes physical conditioning by arguing that inactivity is poison rather than exercise merely being medicine. Human physiology evolved around two core endurance capabilities: running long distances in heat and carrying heavy loads over distances. Easter advocates for rucking—walking with a weighted backpack—because it blends cardiovascular conditioning with strength training, preserves lean muscle mass, and imposes significantly less joint impact and injury risk than running. Archaeological studies demonstrate this ancestral strength, showing prehistoric women had arm bones 16% stronger than modern Olympic rowers. Modern physical supports also foster structural weakness. About 80% of adults experience back pain, largely because cushioned office seating allows core and spinal stabilizers to disengage. Easter recommends adopting the mindset of a '2-center'—referencing behavioral data where only 2% of commuters choose stairs when an escalator is adjacent. Incorporating low-grade physical friction, such as sitting on the floor, carrying groceries by hand, or taking walking calls with a weighted pack, offsets sedentary routines and mitigates progressive muscle loss. Problem Creep and the Value of Constraints (57:19) Despite unprecedented historical improvements in poverty, literacy, and longevity, only 6% of Americans believe the world is improving, and global unhappiness peaked in 2021. Easter attributes this dissatisfaction to hedonic adaptation and 'prevalence-induced concept change,' or problem creep. Research by Harvard psychologist David Levari shows that as objective problems diminish, human perception expands its criteria for what constitutes a problem, classifying neutral stimuli as threatening or unethical. Reintroducing voluntary challenges and constraints provides a psychological corrective. Studies from the University of Illinois and Johns Hopkins show that operating under resource constraints spurs creative problem-solving and innovation, whereas resource abundance breeds complacency. Similarly, intentional solitude—distinct from unwanted loneliness, which increases seven-year mortality risk by 26%—fosters self-awareness. Easter notes from his 33-day Arctic expedition that stepping outside modern comforts re-anchors perspective, transforming routine amenities like running tap water into profound sources of gratitude. Easter concludes that waiting for top-down corporate regulation or ethical restraint from social platforms and food manufacturers is futile, as competitive market incentives penalize products that reduce user engagement. Long-term health and psychological resilience depend instead on individual agency: cultivating awareness of ancient biological impulses, establishing personal constraints, and actively choosing the more demanding path.

作家兼记者 Michael Easter 指出，人类的生理与心理机制原本是为了应对匮乏与严酷的生存挑战而演化，现代社会对舒适、便利与超加工物质的极端追求反而引发了深刻的“演化错配”，导致慢性病高发与心理韧性衰退。他主张个体必须主动在日常生活中引入适度的不适、身体负重与自我约束，以抵御自动化与物质过剩带来的身心退化。 演化错配：过度舒适与现代生活的高昂代价 (0:00) 人类演化形成了在匮乏环境中节约体能与追逐即时安逸的本能，但在现代人造环境中，这种本能已成为健康隐患。心脏病目前已成为全球首要死因，而日常身体劳作几乎被完全剥离。例如，当自动扶梯与传统楼梯并排存在时，仅有2%的人会主动选择走楼梯。此外，人类社交认知受到约150人的“邓巴数”（Dunbar’s Number）限制，高密度的现代都市和巨型企业组织远超这一处理能力，长期诱发低度慢性压力。调查显示，密集都市人群的平均自测幸福感持续低于乡村居民。 环境噪声与社交隔离进一步加剧了生理负担。工业化使环境背景噪音相比前工业时代激增了四倍；世界卫生组织（WHO）估计欧洲每年有2000起心脏病死亡直接归因于环境噪声污染，且社区噪声每增加10分贝，抗焦虑药物使用率就上升28%，毗邻主干道居住者的抑郁风险增加24%。在社交层面，Easter 区分了自主选择与自我反思的“独处”（Solitude）与缺乏联结的“孤独”（Loneliness）。孤独带来的生理危害堪比每日吸食15支香烟，会使未来7年内的死亡概率增加26%，寿命缩短最高达15年；而依靠生成式人工智能伴侣回避现实社交挑战的做法，可能在短期提供慰藉的同时加剧长期的心理脆弱。 匮乏回路：技术与超加工食品的成瘾设计 (25:11) Easter 提出了主导现代成瘾行为的核心机制——“匮乏回路”（The Scarcity Loop），它由三个环节构成：获取价值的“机会”（Opportunity）、结果与时间的“不可预测奖励”（Unpredictable Rewards）以及可迅速重新开始的“快速重复性”（Quick Repeatability）。这一机制原本用于激励远古人类在物资未知的环境中持续觅食，但在现代老虎机、社交媒体动态流以及短视频推荐中被技术公司高度工程化。动物实验表明，即使不可预测的按钮长期供给的食物总量更少，鸽子仍会执着选择该按钮；而现代老虎机将机械拉杆改为按键后，下注频率从每小时400至500次暴增至900次，消除了玩家停顿与反思的契机。 食品工业同样利用了这一演化漏洞，通过高性价比（Value）、多样化风味（Variety）与极快摄入速度（Velocity）这“3V原则”重塑饮食结构。超加工食品去除了天然纤维与水分，破坏了人体的饱腹感反馈回路。美国国立卫生研究院（NIH）的代谢病房试验证实，摄入超加工饮食的受试者比摄入未加工匹配饮食的人平均每天多摄入500卡路里。在澳大利亚一项关于食物饱腹感指数的研究中，纯水煮土豆的饱腹度排名居首，而可颂面包等面粉油脂混合物垫底；同样摄入170卡路里热量，个体需要吃下整整七个可颂面包才能获得吃下一个土豆的物理饱腹感。Easter 指出，饮食窗口限制等断食手段的根本价值不在于神奇的代谢魔法，而在于通过简单的行为规则切断无意识的高频进食。 久坐即毒药：重塑自然运动与负重行走 (62:42) 针对现代健身文化，Easter 修正了“运动即良药”的流行表述，指出从生物演化史看更准确的定义是“缺乏运动即毒药”。人类身体并非为了在健身房孤立训练而设计，玻利维亚提斯曼（Tsimané）原住民部落保持着医学史上最健康的心脏记录，极少出现心脏病或阿尔茨海默病，其饮食全由单一成分的原生食材构成，日常活动量则超过每日20,000步，远超美英两国普通人每日4,000至5,000步的水平。长期久坐与过度支撑的家具导致背部和核心肌群长期处于废用状态，致使约80%的成年人一生中遭受慢性背痛困扰。 在演化过程中，人类生理特质主要围绕两项核心耐力能力发展：在炎热环境下依靠排汗散热的“持久狩猎”（Persistence Hunting），以及利用独特肩部、脊柱与握力结构进行长距离“负重搬运”（Loaded Carrying）。Easter 大力推崇背负重物行走（Rucking），强调相比于跑步时肌肉与脂肪同时消耗且冲击关节，负重行走能对机体发出明确的保留肌肉信号，兼具心肺训练与力量强化，且损伤率极低。此外，南加州大学（USC）David Raichlen 等学者的研究表明，在野外复杂地形中运动需要大脑实时计算落脚点、温度与环境变化，其神经认知刺激远非室内跑步机所能比拟；而人体感受到的疲劳多数源于大脑作为安全保护机制设立的“总督调节”（Governor Theory），并非真正的骨骼肌衰竭极限。 概念蔓延与主动不适：重构幸福与创新的心理机制 (57:19) 物质条件的极大充裕并未自动转化为心理幸福感的提升。哈佛大学心理学家 David Levari 提出的“概念蔓延”（Prevalence-Induced Concept Change，或称“问题蔓延”）研究表明，当现实中的客观威胁减少时，人类大脑会自动放宽评判标准，将中性或边缘事件判定为问题。在1970年至2000年间，美国人均实际收入增长了50%，但报告的幸福感基本持平甚至略有下降；1965年至2015年的流行歌词语言学分析显示，“爱”等积极词汇减半，而“恨”等消极词汇显著攀升；民调中仅有6%的美国人认为世界正在变好。由于缺乏严酷环境的对比，人们往往陷入享乐适应，忽视了室内管道热水与恒温等现代奇迹。 打破这种消极循环的有效策略是主动成为“2%的人”，即在日常生活中刻意选择更具阻力的路径，如多走楼梯、远端停车、徒手搬运重物或席地而坐。伊利诺伊大学与约翰斯·霍普金斯大学的多项联合研究表明，资源受限的匮乏状态反而能强迫个体和组织摆脱常规模式，以更少的资源催生出更具颠覆性的创新方案。Easter 强调，真正的心智重塑无法通过空洞的意念达成，而必须建立在一系列主动完成艰难挑战的客观事实之上。在充满确定性的现代社会中，主动涉入不适与未知才是激发内在潜能与重塑生活掌控感的基石。 Easter 总结认为，商业社会通过算法与工业设计精准收割人类的演化偏好，呼吁外部强监管并不现实且易导致技术流失，个体的真正自由在于看清行为背后的生物机制并保持自觉选择。然而，在都市基础设施与数字生态高度锁定的今天，单纯依靠个体自律与“2%法则”在多大程度上能够逆转系统性的全球性倦怠与健康滑坡，仍是一个充满现实张力且有待持续观察的议题。

## Background 该视频由 YouTube 频道 The Diary Of A CEO（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2023 年 11 月 2 日发布。节目简介重点推介了畅销书作家兼调查记者 Michael Easter 的新书《Scarcity Brain》，探讨现代便利生活方式背后的健康危机，以及人类演化基因与现代丰裕环境之间的深刻错配。 ## TL;DR 作家兼调查记者 Michael Easter 深入剖析了人类源于远古匮乏环境的“稀缺大脑”如何被现代商业、超加工食品及数字媒体精准利用，从而引发了肥胖、成瘾、背痛和普遍的精神倦怠。他结合玻利维亚土著研究、赌博成瘾实验室的“稀缺循环”模型以及自身在北极荒野的生存体验，阐释了缺乏运动与过度安逸对身心的毒害。Easter 呼吁现代人成为主动选择走楼梯、直面阻力的“2% 的人”，通过刻意拥抱短期不适与不确定性，重新夺回生活的主导权与真实的幸福感。 ## Atmosphere & style 对谈在深沉、反思且极具启发性的基调中展开，融合了严谨的演化人类学科学与真挚的个人救赎叙事。Steven Bartlett 敏锐而富有共情力的追问，与 Michael Easter 幽默坦诚的经历分享碰撞出深刻的共鸣，从揭秘算法控制的冷酷现实无缝过渡到北极荒野洗礼的精神顿悟。整场对话既充满直面现代生活虚无感与健康危机的清醒警示，又带有一种敦促听众立即跨出舒适区、重塑自我的克制力量。 ## Bulletin - [02:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=134s) 现代极端便利与演化硬件错配：人类古老大脑适应的是资源匮乏与高体力消耗环境，在超加工食品、噪音和久坐等过剩环境中，逃避不适的本能反而诱发了严重的慢性病与精神倦怠。 - [25:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1512s) 商业设计全面利用“稀缺循环”：老虎机、社交信息流及零食工业通过“机会、不可预测的奖励、快速可重复性”三要素精准捕获注意力，取消老虎机拉杆改为按钮更直接使操作频率飙升至每小时 900 次。 - [44:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=2651s) 饱腹感由食物体积与加工度决定而非纯热量：NIH 与澳洲研究显示，天然单一成分饮食每天可让人自发少摄入 500 大卡，吃 1 个水煮土豆的抗饿效果等同于吃 7 个高能量密度的羊角面包。 - [01:20:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4816s) 践行“2%法则”以微小不适打破心理与身体退化：仅有 2% 的人面对扶梯会选择走楼梯，主动选择微小阻力与负重徒步（Rucking）是摆脱肌少症、慢性背痛和自我怀疑的关键路径。 ## Key takeaways - [02:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=134s) 现代社会的一切被设计得极度舒适，人类必须主动拥抱短期不适才能换取身心健康的长期收益。 - [05:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=358s) 南美玻利维亚土著拥有极其健康的心血管系统，其核心秘诀并非极端饮食时尚，而是日常完全摄入“单一成分食物”。 - [10:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=651s) 邓巴数限制了人类维系稳定社交关系的大脑上限约为 150 人，长期生活在超载的大都市与拥挤环境中显著推高了慢性心理压力。 - [12:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=753s) 现代环境噪音比工业化前高出四倍，隐秘地激活人体的慢性应激机制，在欧洲每年直接诱发约 2,000 例心脏病致死。 - [21:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1273s) 成瘾的本质是以透支长期成长为代价换取眼前的短期奖赏，其底层往往源于深层心理需求的错位代偿。 - [25:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1512s) “稀缺循环”（机会、不可预测的奖励、快速可重复性）根植于人类祖先的觅食本能，已被现代博彩与社交媒体深度产品化。 - [32:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1930s) “差一点就赢”（Near Miss）的心理机制结合不可预测性，会极大缩短重复行为的时间间隔并强化成瘾。 - [39:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=2343s) 社会地位是人类古老的生存信号；强烈的“地位信号刺激”（如必须穿过飞机头等舱）会显著激发挫败感并使冲突发生率激增 9 倍。 - [41:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=2499s) 零食工业遵循“3V 原则”（价值、多样性、速度），高能量密度与极快的吞咽速度彻底瓦解了人体自然的饱腹感反馈机制。 - [50:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3017s) 运动中的疲劳往往是大脑提前踩下的防御刹车，主观极限很大程度上取决于认知叙事而非真实的肌肉极限。 - [58:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3497s) 人类普遍存在“概念蔓延”（问题蔓延）倾向：当外部客观环境变得更加安全富足时，大脑会自发降低对威胁的判定门槛并制造新的烦恼。 - [01:02:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3762s) 相比“运动是良药”，“缺乏运动是毒药”更符合生物学本质；结合长距离行走与负重负荷的“负重徒步”（Rucking）能兼顾心肺与肌肉保护。 - [01:12:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4322s) 在复杂自然环境中运动（如越野跑）对大脑认知的调动如同“解微积分”，远比在跑步机上看电视具备更强的大脑抗衰价值。 - [01:17:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4666s) 全球 80% 成年人经历的背痛源于软垫和靠背剥夺了核心肌群的持续微刺激，多在地面坐姿有助于激活脊柱周围肌群。 - [01:20:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4816s) 信念的重塑依赖于亲身行动带来的“证据堆叠”，通过在日常中成为选择楼梯的“2%的人”，可以打破放弃与退缩的消极自我叙事。 - [01:29:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5361s) 对不确定性的恐惧常让人困于“确定的痛苦”中，但未知是超额成长与人生张力的唯一起点。 - [01:32:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5528s) 资源的绝对充裕容易滋生思维惰性，而适度的资源匮乏与边界限制往往是逼出颠覆性创新的终极催化剂。 - [01:39:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5974s) 商业算法与便利设施的成瘾性无法单靠行政禁令消解，个体唯一的救赎在于建立清醒的“自我意识”与主动选择权。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=0s) 引言与现代困境：舒适陷阱与演化错配 在欧洲，每年有多达 2,000 起心脏病死亡案例直接归咎于人们所处环境的噪音污染。现代社会所塑造的生活方式，根本不是人类演化设计中所适应的生存模式。畅销书作家兼调查记者迈克尔·伊斯特（Michael Easter）指出，人类本能地倾向于选择最轻松、最舒适的事物，但这种源自远古的适应性如今正让人类付出惨痛的代价——人们陷入普遍的倦怠、压力与心理健康危机，并不断饥渴地寻找下一次多巴胺刺激。现代商业体系精准地利用了人性的这种成瘾倾向。以赌场老虎机为例，当运营商取消了传统的物理拉杆、改用简单的下注按钮后，玩家每小时的下注局数直接从 400 次飙升至平均 900 次；折算到每分钟就是 15 次，这甚至比人类正常的眨眼频率还要高。 与此同时，现代工作模式彻底将身体活动从日常生活中剥离，人们被迫在办公椅上一坐就是整整 8 个小时。甚至在同时提供手扶电梯和普通楼梯的场所，只有区区 2% 的人会主动选择走楼梯。这种根植于基因中对安逸的盲目追求，直接助长了心脏病成为全球人口的头号杀手。更矛盾的是，随着现代人经历的生存危机越来越少，人类并没有变得更加满足，反而开始无休止地寻找新的琐碎问题并感到痛苦。语言演变的数据印证了这一心理退化：在 1965 年至 2015 年间，人类日常用语中“爱”（love）这一词汇的使用频率腰斩了一半，而像“恨”（hate）这类的负面词汇却显著增加。伊斯特强调，这种痛苦并非个人的过错，而是“古老大脑在对抗现代环境”的演化危机；要想重新掌控生活，关键在于学会成为主动拥抱挑战的“2% 的人”（two-percenter）。 - 欧洲每年约有 2,000 例心脏病致死事件与环境噪音相关。 - 老虎机从物理拉杆改为旋转按钮后，玩家游戏频率从每小时 400 次激增至 900 次。 - 面对手扶电梯与楼梯的二选一场景，仅有 2% 的现代人会选择走楼梯。 - 1965 年至 2015 年间，日常语言中“爱”的使用率下降了 50%，负面情绪词汇使用率明显攀升。 --- ### [01:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=91s) 频道互动与主持人的订阅呼吁 在访谈正式展开前，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向观众分享了一组来自后台的数据洞察：在长期收看本频道的忠实受众中，有高达 69.9% 的观众尚未点击订阅按钮。史蒂文向观众真诚发起请求，希望觉得节目有价值的听众能够顺手订阅频道。他解释道，更高的订阅基数能够直接帮助节目组邀请到更重磅的对话嘉宾、升级制作团队的工业水准，并持续拓展节目的影响力。作为交换，他郑重向观众承诺，团队将倾尽全力保证每一期内容的深度与质感不断精进。 --- ### [02:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=134s) 核心使命：拥抱短期不适以换取长期收益 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 远古适应机制与现代环境的演化错配 accDescr: 展示人类古老基因驱动力如何在匮乏环境中保命，而在现代丰裕环境中导致慢性病。 subgraph Ancestral ["远古生存环境 (稀缺时代)"] A["生存资源极度匮乏<br/>食物/信息/舒适度稀缺"] --> B["演化出节能与渴望机制<br/>贪图安逸、摄取高热量、储存资源"] B --> C["生存概率最大化<br/>（高身体活动量与天然食物）"] end subgraph Modern ["现代工业环境 (过剩时代)"] D["人工重塑的世界<br/>汽车、恒温、加工食品、数码媒介"] --> E["古老硬件遭遇海量丰裕<br/>本能驱动继续疯狂摄入与静坐"] E --> F["演化错配 (Mismatch)<br/>慢性病爆发、精神倦怠、缺乏体能"] end C -.->|演化滞后| E ``` 当史蒂文询问伊斯特著书立说的核心使命时，伊斯特将其概括为一句话：“在当今世界的语境下，你往往必须主动拥抱短期的不适，才能换取长期的收益（embrace short-term discomfort to get a long-term benefit）。”在技术进步的推动下，现代社会的一切都被设计得极度轻松且毫不费力。尽管这种便利是文明进步的红利，但当生活彻底失去了所有阻力——无论是走几步楼梯，还是与人进行一场艰难而深入的对话——人类正在丧失维系身心健康与幸福的核心要素。伊斯特在《舒适危机》（The Comfort Crisis）中提出，深刻塑造现代人日常形态的事物（如汽车、室内恒温空调、工业化食品供应体系等），在宏观的时间长河中都是极其短暂的新生事物，几乎全是在过去 100 年内才普及开来的。 其中最极端的例证莫过于数字媒体。现代人平均每天消耗 12 到 13 个小时的数字媒体，然而无线电广播的发明距今也不过区区百年左右。在如此短暂的时间尺度内，人类的大脑硬件根本来不及完成生物学意义上的演化与适应。伊斯特的研究大量借用了人类学视角：人类的大脑与身体是在极端匮乏、艰辛且充斥不适的自然环境中被塑造出来的，彼时对安逸和资源的饥渴是保命的法宝；然而，一旦将这套远古硬件置于当下食物、物品、信息、地位与影响力全面过剩的环境中，原本的生存优势便会彻底失控，形成严重的“演化错配”（Evolutionary Mismatch）。 这种演化错配在生理层面上直接体现为慢性病的激增，在心理层面上则表现为广泛的心理倦怠与精神压力。更为致命的是现代人体能水平的灾难性下滑。远古时期人类祖先的身体活动量据估算约为现代人的 14 倍之多。当代针对仍保留原始习俗的狩猎采集部落的研究显示，这些人群日常步数普遍轻松超过 20,000 步；反观现代社会，普通美国人或英国人每天的活动量仅仅徘徊在 4,000 到 5,000 步之间。这种为了生存而本能追求“最省力、最安逸途径”的演化驱动力，在缺乏体力劳动的当代社会反过来成了毁灭健康的隐形毒药。 - 现代人平均每日接触数字媒体的时间高达 12 至 13 小时。 - 人类远古祖先的身体活动量约是现代普通人的 14 倍。 - 现代狩猎采集人群日常平均步数超过 20,000 步，而现代英美成年人日均步数仅有 4,000 至 5,000 步。 --- ### [05:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=358s) 探寻健康真谛：从南美土著到超加工食品的陷阱 史蒂文谈到，现代人苦苦追寻的诸多生活困惑与健康答案，往往并不在前方，而隐藏在我们身后的历史长河中。伊斯特在为其著作《匮乏大脑》（Scarcity Brain）进行调研时深入考察了南美洲玻利维亚的土著部落。他指出，现代人普遍存在认知盲区：大家日常最恐惧的死因是癌症、恐怖袭击或是持枪的疯狂邻居，却往往对心脏病视而不见；然而临床医学事实表明，无论在哪个发达国家，心脏病自始至终都是夺走人类生命最多的头号杀手。 在查阅海量科学文献时，伊斯特注意到一项令人震撼的研究：科学家在玻利维亚丛林中的一个原住民部落里，记录到了人类医学史上最为健康的心血管系统。这群原住民不仅极少患上心血管疾病，连阿尔茨海默病等现代慢性退行性疾病也几乎绝迹。令人大跌眼镜的是，这些土著的饮食模式彻底粉碎了现代营养学界近 40 年来鼓吹的各种极端饮食时尚（如低脂、低碳、纯素、生酮、原始人饮食法等）。他们的食谱并非单一维度的戒断，其中不仅包含大米、土豆、亚马逊鹿肉、大量野生鱼类、坚果和水果，甚至还毫无顾忌地摄入天然糖分。这一现象狠狠嘲讽了现代各类宣称“吃一克糖肾脏就会衰竭暴毙”的极端流派。 这些世界上心脏最健康的人群，其饮食的核心秘密仅在于一个关键特征：他们所吃的所有食物都属于“单一成分食物”（one-ingredient foods）。对比之下，现代工业化国家的大众饮食被大量的“超加工食品”（Ultra-processed foods）牢牢统治——这在科学界不过是垃圾食品的高级代名词。现代工业通过多重复杂的物理和化学加工，将大量油脂、糖分与风味剂浓缩进极小体积的食物中（例如多力多滋玉米片）。伊斯特笑谈，自己在部落同住期间，当地原生态食物的风味其实相当平淡粗糙，远谈不上美味；而现代超加工食品不仅在口感上远胜任何天然丛林食物，其超高能量密度更使得摄入速度与进食门槛大幅降低。 为了量化这种影响，美国国立卫生研究院（NIH）曾进行过严格的封闭对照试验：将受试者统一隔离在实验室中，分别提供未加工天然饮食与超加工食品饮食。两组饮食在总卡路里、碳水化合物、蛋白质和脂肪比例等宏量营养指标上被精密匹配，受试者均被告知可以完全依照饱腹感自由进食。实验结果极为惊人：在食用成分单一、未加工的天然食物阶段，受试者每天在不知不觉中自发少摄入 500 大卡的热量，体重也随之平稳下降。这雄辩地证明，现代人的肥胖与代谢危机并非单纯的自律缺陷，而是现代超加工工业对人类古老匮乏基因的蓄意利用与全面围剿。 - 玻利维亚土著原住民拥有科学界记录过的最健康心血管系统，几乎免疫心脏病与阿尔茨海默病。 - 部落饮食完全由“单一成分食物”构成（大米、土豆、鹿肉、鱼类、坚果、水果等），打破了所有单一宏量营养素戒断的饮食迷信。 - 美国国立卫生研究院（NIH）代谢舱试验表明：在营养素比例配平的条件下，吃纯天然未加工食物的个体每日自发减少摄入 500 大卡热量并实现减重。 ### [09:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=594s) 稀缺本能的过载：从部落规模到信息海啸 在人类漫长的演化史中，资源匮乏曾是生存的常态。无论是食物、工具等物资，还是在群体中争夺地位、权力和稀缺信息，一旦机遇降临，全力以赴甚至过度索取都是最合乎生存逻辑的策略。然而现代社会的剧变打破了这种古老的平衡：街角堆满了装载着数以万计食品的杂货店，互联网则带来了难以想象的信息泛滥——如今一个普通人仅在一天内接触到的信息量，就已经超过了700年前的中世纪人类一生所能见闻的总和。 这种过载同样深刻地侵蚀了人际结构与社会地位的定义。过去人类生活在规模极小的群体中，彼此的位阶清晰分明；而如今，任何人都能在瞬息之间向数百万人广播自己的生活与形象。这种群体规模的剧烈膨胀直接冲击了人类神经系统的承载极限。正如迈克尔·伊斯特（Michael Easter）在其著作《舒适危机》（*The Comfort Crisis*）中所阐释的，置身于过于庞大的群体和拥挤环境，正在对当代人的身心健康与幸福感产生肉眼可见的负面反噬。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 进化适应与现代环境的冲突示意图 accDescr: 展示远古稀缺环境与现代丰裕环境在资源、群体规模及信息上的对比如何导致系统过载。 subgraph 远古演化环境 A["资源匮乏<br/>（高热量食物/工具工具稀缺）"] --> D["行为机制：见机过度摄取"] B["小规模部落<br/>（不超过150人，位阶明确）"] --> E["认知负担低，人际关系稳定"] C["信息稀少<br/>（终其一生见闻有限）"] --> F["神经系统适应低刺激"] end subgraph 现代超载环境 D -.-> G["物质极大丰裕<br/>（货架满溢、暴饮暴食）"] E -.-> H["社会网络失控<br/>（超大规模组织/网络地位焦虑）"] F -.-> I["信息海啸<br/>（单日摄入量超古人一生）"] end G & H & I --> J["现代困境：慢性压力与幸福感崩塌"] ``` --- ### [10:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=651s) 邓巴数与拥挤都市的心理代价 迈克尔·伊斯特指出，英国人类学家罗宾·邓巴（Robin Dunbar）提出的“邓巴数”（Dunbar's number）设定了人类认知能力的天然上限：人类大脑在新皮质结构上所能维系稳定社交关系的人数上限大约只有 150 人。演化过程中群落规模很少超过这个阈值，因为一旦群体规模突破 150 人，人际网的复杂度就会呈指数级攀升——个体不仅需要记住海量的人名与面孔，还要厘清错综复杂的交叉关系，群体内部也不得不制定复杂的法律与制度进行规训。 对现代人而言，常年生活在严重超出这一阈值的环境里，无异于持续消耗大量的认知资源与心理能量。数据统计呈现出一个明显的规律：在极度密集的大都市中生活的人群，其平均幸福感往往显著低于生活在乡村或低密度环境中的群体。尽管并非每个都市居民都不快乐，但平均而言，人际密度过高所带来的持续压力，已成为现代都市病的重要催化剂。 - **邓巴数的核心机制**：人类大脑维系稳定社交网络的最适上限约为 150 人；超过此规模，维持信任与人际秩序的认知成本将剧增。 - **居住密度的心理差异**：密集大都市居民的平均幸福感普遍落后于乡村与低密度居住者。 --- ### [12:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=753s) 极地荒野的绝对死寂与现代世界的低频噪音 在谈及生活环境对健康的影响时，伊斯特分享了自己在撰写《舒适危机》期间前往北极荒野生活 33 天的震撼体验。在数百英里内杳无人烟的极地苔原上，环境陷入了一种现代人无法想象的绝对寂静。伊斯特回忆，某天自己独自站在荒野中，忽然捕捉到一种极微弱的规律声响，他警惕地四处张望：“那到底是什么鬼动静？”结果发现那竟然是自己手腕上机械表秒针走动的微弱滴答声。在现代生活里，你必须把手表贴在耳边才能听见的声音，在绝对无声的荒野中却清晰可辨。 这一发现促使他深入研究现代声景对人类生理的深层影响。根据科学估算，自人类主导地球并进入工业化社会以来，全球环境的噪音水平上升了整整四倍。在远古演化机制中，任何突发的巨大声响都直接等同于致命危险——例如雷暴将至，或是捕食者在发动伏击前发出的咆哮。人类的大脑因而进化出了对突发声响的高度警觉机制。现代都市虽然少有猛兽，却充斥着昼夜不停的低频噪音背景，使中枢神经系统长期处于慢性应激状态。 - **全球噪音激增**：工业文明使全球声环境强度比前工业时代上升了约 400%。 - **致命的生理代价**：世界卫生组织（WHO）的一项研究估计，仅在欧洲，每年就有大约 2,000 例心血管疾病与心脏病发作猝死直接归因于环境噪音引发的慢性压力反应。 --- ### [14:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=894s) 开放式办公室的陷阱与声学污染 史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）听闻后震惊地提到了现代企业最为推崇的空间模式——开放式办公室。他坦言自己名下在全球各地的办公室全部采用开放式布局，而刚刚才签字批准了位于伦敦市中心全新总部的装修设计蓝图。伊斯特打趣道：“那恐怕得赶紧叫停施工，好好复查施工图纸了。”伊斯特指出，《舒适危机》第13章详细梳理了办公室声学环境对焦虑、抑郁与工作效率的破坏性作用。 最讽刺的一点在于，绝大多数人并不能客观意识到噪音对自我的侵蚀。一项对照实验对比了安静独立办公室与开放式办公室（后者噪音高出50%）的职员表现：在开放式环境中工作的员工主观上并未声称自己感到更多压力，但佩戴的生理监测仪却清楚记录下了心率变异性异常、压力激素飙升的生理应激状态，同时他们的实际工作产出与质量均明显落后于安静环境下的同行。环境噪音正以一种隐秘的方式榨取脑力并制造心理疾患。 | 噪音与环境因素 | 对应的健康/心理负面影响 | |:--- |:--- | | **社区噪音每增加 10 分贝** | 抗焦虑药物的使用率相对上升 **28%** | | **居住在嘈杂主干道附近** | 罹患抑郁症的风险增加 **24%** | | **开放式办公室（噪音高出50%）** | 客观压力指标显著飙升，深度工作效率与产出严重下滑 | 伊斯特补充道，澳大利亚的一项研究发现，现代人由于习惯了被声音包裹，初次面对绝对寂静时会本能地感到心慌与极度不适。巴特利特也强烈共鸣表示：“我甚至不放点声音就无法入睡。”然而跨过最初的不适后，置身于安静中的人情绪都会出现明显好转。 --- ### [17:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1023s) 孤独与独处的界限，以及 AI 虚幻陪伴的隐忧 随着现代社会对心理健康关注的增加，伊斯特特别厘清了两个常被混淆的概念——“孤独”（Loneliness）与“独处”（Being Alone / Solitude）。孤独是一种主观上极度渴望与他人建立连接，却发现身边缺乏人际支持的被动匮乏状态；而独处则是个体主动选择与自己相处，通过沉淀向内探索的过程。许多天性偏好独处的人拥有极少数可信赖的密友，其幸福指数与极度外向的人并无差异。伊斯特批评了过去十余年间社会舆论过度强调“必须广交朋友、时刻保持高度社交才算健康”的教条，他认为主动离开舒适圈、去陌生地带经历一段时间的独处，反而能让人更深刻地珍惜人际关系的温度。 巴特利特列举了残酷的医学统计：长期的孤独感会使个体在未来七年内的死亡概率激增 26%，危害程度相当于使预期寿命缩短 15 年。面对科技与人工智能的爆发式渗透，巴特利特表达了深切的忧虑：如今已有利用生成式 AI 技术打造虚拟伴侣的产业，成百上千的男性愿意为此按月付费，寻求看似亲密的对话。伊斯特对此一针见血地指出，这种畸形需求背后折射出当代人对真实社交摩擦的极度逃避——与现实中活生生的人接触难免伴随着尴尬、不适与挑战，而沉溺于虚假算法构建的顺从伴侣，正是人类本能中逃避一切不适、最终丧失成长能力的危险缩影。 ### [19:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1195s) 人际联结的避难所与写作背后的个人渊源 谈及现代人为何越来越倾向于与 AI 伴侣互动而非走进真实社交，迈克尔·伊斯特指出，走入公众场合与真人建立关系固然充满挑战，但从长远来看，真人之间的互动远比任何 AI 机器人更具奖赏价值。然而现代社会提供了一条极具诱惑力的退路——人们随时可以选择逃避艰难的事物，投入某种更轻松、但长期而言毫无裨益的替代品怀抱。斯蒂芬·巴特利特顺势追问：撰写一本书向来是极其痛苦而漫长的过程，迈克尔为何在浩瀚的主题中，对“舒适、上瘾与稀缺”这一系列议题展现出如此强烈的探究欲？ 迈克尔坦言，这一切源于自己真实的成长与生活历程。他从小由单亲母亲抚养长大，作为独生子，母亲因工作需要经常出差奔波。到了二十多岁时，他陷入了严重的酗酒问题。那时的他，正是在用酒精带来的短暂舒缓，无情透支着长期的成长与生命意义。戒酒成了一道艰难至极的关卡，也是他人生轨迹的彻底转折点。 ### [21:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1273s) 纸面上的光鲜与内心的废墟：隐性酗酒与成瘾光谱 在外界眼中，迈克尔当时的生活完全挑不出毛病：他供职于知名杂志社，拥有一份令人羡慕的工作，有房有车。然而在光鲜的表象之下，他的精神世界却犹如一团混乱的废墟，四壁仿佛正逐渐向内坍塌。他曾多次尝试戒酒均告失败，直至某一天他突然清醒地意识到：戒酒绝非易事，但如果继续沉溺下去，自己很可能会英年早逝。他必须撕掉遮羞的创口贴，直面这件最痛苦的难事。当他终于跨过戒酒这一关后，生活的各方面都迎来了脱胎换骨的改善。 面对斯蒂芬关于“内心废墟”究竟是何种体验的追问，迈克尔给出了对成瘾的本质洞察：成瘾就是“一贯以牺牲长期成长为代价，去选择眼前的短期奖赏”。酗酒不仅持续掏空他的银行账户，恶化人际关系，每次狂饮后更会陷入长达三天的极度萎靡与痛苦。最可怕的诅咒在于那种明知故犯的心理机制——大脑总会自我欺骗说“这次不一样，我只喝一两杯”，然而一旦两杯下肚，大脑便会立刻切换频道：“既然一两杯这么爽，再来十杯岂不是更好？” 迈克尔强调，精神医学领域的权威诊断手册 DSM-5 也将成瘾视为一种连续的光谱（包含 11 项诊断标准：符合 4 项为轻度，6 项为中度，7 项及以上则为重度）。成瘾绝不仅限于毒品或酒精，现代人完全可以把这套标准套用在日常行为中，比如对某些手机 App 的不可自拔。 - **DSM-5 成瘾严重程度分级标准**： - 符合 4 项指标：轻度成瘾（Mild） - 符合 6 项指标：中度成瘾（Medium） - 符合 7 项及以上指标：重度/极度成瘾（Extreme） ### [24:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1456s) 成瘾的本质是深层需求的错位投射 迈克尔进一步阐述，成瘾在很大程度上只是某种更深层问题的表面症状。回溯自己当年的酗酒原因，他发现自己本质上是一个极度渴望极端体验与冒险的人，而当时身处一个循规蹈矩、干净而沉闷的办公室格子间里，酒精成了他在高度规则化的文明世界中寻找“狂野与自由”的廉价通道。 这种代偿机制是破坏性的。当他弄清楚自己内心的真正症结后，他选择将这种对极端体验的渴望引导至建设性的方向——转行从事能够深入极端环境与偏远地区的写作与探险工作。他给大众的启示是：一旦看清自己困扰的底层诱因，并把这种驱动力重定向至能够提升生活维度的目标上，它就会成为改变人生的利器。 ### [25:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1512s) 对抗远古硬件：“稀缺循环”与拉斯维加斯秘密实验室 针对斯蒂芬提出的核心困惑——当我们在克制与放纵（例如纠结要不要吃胡萝卜蛋糕、要不要狂刷网页）之间拉锯时，究竟该如何战胜这场与自我的较量？迈克尔指出，这场战争的对手不仅是我们自己，更是深植于体内的“远古硬件”。人人都懂得“凡事适度”的道理，但在现实中每个人都在某种事物上丧失节制能力。 为了解开这个谜题，常年定居拉斯维加斯的迈克尔深入探究了老虎机让人欲罢不能的底层机制。他造访了拉斯维加斯边缘一座极具科幻色彩的隐秘设施——那是一座运转完备、配备顶尖技术的全功能赌场，拥有客房、餐厅、咖啡厅和各类博彩台，但它不对外营业，而是博彩行业与硅谷科技巨头联手打造的行为学实验室，专门用于研究人类行为与沉迷机制。 在与那里的老虎机设计师深入交谈后，迈克尔提炼出了操控人类行为的最强模型——“稀缺循环”（The Scarcity Loop）。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 稀缺循环三要素流程图 accDescr: 展示构成稀缺循环的三个核心环节：机会、不可预测的奖励与快速可重复性。 subgraph LOOP["稀缺循环 (The Scarcity Loop)"] A["1. 机会<br/>(Opportunity)"] --> B["2. 不可预测的奖励<br/>(Unpredictable Rewards)"] B --> C["3. 快速可重复性<br/>(Quick Repeatability)"] C --> A end ``` 迈克尔将稀缺循环定义为“适度原则的连环杀手”，它由环环相扣的三部分构成： 1. **机会（Opportunity）**：个体获得某种能改善生活或带来价值的事物的契机（在老虎机中即为金钱）。 2. **不可预测的奖励（Unpredictable Rewards）**：个体确信自己终会获得价值，但完全无法预知何时降临、数额多大（可能输光本金，可能赢得几美元，也可能突然爆出数十万大奖）。 3. **快速可重复性（Quick Repeatability）**：个体可以立即毫无延迟地重复这一行为。 这种强效循环如今已被广泛植入现代科技与商业生态中：社交媒体的信息流刷新、约会软件的右滑匹配、Robinhood 等散户投资软件的交易界面、零工经济平台的派单机制，以及蓬勃发展的体育博彩。当人们发现自己无法控制频繁查看邮件或紧盯股票走势时，背后无一不是稀缺循环在作祟。 ### [29:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1750s) 觅食本能的现代陷阱 当迈克尔询问那位老虎机设计师“人类为何天生容易陷入这种循环”时，对方只是耸耸肩表示自己只管赚钱、并不关心原因。为了追寻演化源头，迈克尔联系了肯塔基大学的一位资深行为心理学家。这位早在 1968 年便取得博士学位、深耕该领域数十载的老学者指出：这种心理回路在演化史上最初是为了帮助远古人类寻找食物而形成的生存机制。在物资匮乏的环境中，觅食行为正契合了这一循环——每一次探索都是机会，收获的结果永远不可预测，而为了生存，人类必须日复一日快速重复这一过程。 ### [29:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1789s) 老虎机机制与远古觅食本能 远古时期的生存条件极为残酷，人类必须每天外出寻找食物才能活命。然而，食物究竟身在何处、能找到多少，全都是未知数。猎人可能先搜寻了 A 点，一无所获；接着前往 B 点，依旧空手而归；直到走到 C 点，突然“叮叮叮”中了大奖——捕获了一头体型庞大的麋鹿，足以让整个群体饱餐数周。这种“搜寻—落空—继续尝试—突获巨奖”的循环，其底层架构与现代赌场的**老虎机（Slot Machine）**如出一辙：投入筹码、毫无所获，再投一次、依然轮空，再试一次、不可预测的大奖赫然降临。 这种无法预测的间歇性奖励机制深深烙印在人类大脑中。在进化史上，如果人类没有进化出对这种循环的高度痴迷与渴望，祖先便不会拥有每天坚持不懈外出觅食的动力，整个人类种群也早已灭亡。我们至今仍背负着这套古老的“硬件系统”。 这种本能并非人类独有，它广泛存在于动物界。肯塔基大学（University of Kentucky）的一项鸽子实验证实，即便面对两种觅食游戏——一种是收益可预测且总食物量更多，另一种收益无法预测但总食物量更少——鸽子依然会执迷于不可预测的赌博式游戏。研究人员轻而易举就能将鸽子变成“堕落的赌徒”，同样的成瘾行为在老鼠和其他灵长类动物身上也屡试不爽。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 远古觅食与老虎机机制的进化逻辑 accDescr: 对比远古觅食与老虎机机制中不可预测奖励如何驱动重复行为 subgraph Foraging["远古觅食"] A1["搜寻 A 点（无收获）"] --> A2["搜寻 B 点（无收获）"] A2 --> A3["搜寻 C 点（命中麋鹿大奖）"] A3 --> A4["强化继续觅食本能"] end subgraph Casino["现代老虎机机制"] B1["拉杆（落空）"] --> B2["拉杆（落空）"] B2 --> B3["拉杆（中大奖）"] B3 --> B4["多巴胺暴增持续下注"] end A4 -. 进化遗传.-> B1 ``` - **汽车点火隐喻**：如果车钥匙一拧发动机每次都顺利启动，这毫无吸引力；如果车彻底坏了，拧几次毫无反应，人们便会放弃并联系维修；但如果启动时引擎不断发出“突突突”的声音，看似马上要发动却又熄火，不可预测的生机信号就会让人坐在车里反复拧钥匙停不下来。 --- ### [32:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1930s) “差一点就赢”心理学与社交媒体的成瘾设计 赌博产业深刻洞悉了不可预测性对大脑的控制，并发展出了著名的**“差一点就赢”（Near Miss）**设计。在五轴老虎机上，假设图案需要五个樱桃才能赢取巨额奖金，前四个轴连续摇出樱桃时，系统会特意让第五个轴旋转得越来越慢，将紧张与悬念拉扯到极致。玩家屏住呼吸等待大奖，结果停下时差了一个符号。这种“险些成功”的主观感受非但不会劝退玩家，反而会刺激他们更快地按下下一局。由于数学概率上“差一点就赢”的出现频率远高于实际赢钱，它极大加速了行为的重复频率。 现代科技巨头与社交平台同样将这套“稀缺回路”（Scarcity Loop）运用到了极致： - **通知的不确定性**：手机屏幕弹出一条 Instagram 评论通知，在点开之前用户无法预知其内容——可能是一条令人心花怒放的夸赞，也可能来自恶意喷子的恶毒攻击，这种未知拉满了点开应用的冲动。 - **发布动态的下注感**：在 Twitter（现为 X）上发布一条自认为幽默敏锐的动态后，滚轴便开始旋转。用户反复刷新页面查看数据：它会大受追捧疯传全网，还是彻底沉寂冷场，让自己宛如一个在台上讲冷笑话却遭遇死寂的傻子？不可预测的社会认同波动牢牢锁住了用户的注意力。 - **无休止的信息流滑动**：用户在短视频或信息流中机械地滑动，本质上是在等待下一次刺激——可能是一段费城老鹰队赛后的酒吧斗殴视频，也可能是一段暖心的萌宠片段，或是一则让人捧腹大笑的爆梗。大脑就在这种“等待下一次命中”的过程中彻底沦陷。 面对这些令人身心俱疲的数字成瘾，Easter 强调：“你并不是一个糟糕的人，这只是你古老的大脑在与你对抗。**这不是你的错，但这是你的问题**（It's not your fault, but it is your problem），你必须主动寻找解法。” 要打破“稀缺回路”，关键在于两步： 1. **觉察效应（霍桑效应 / Hawthorne Effect）**：仅仅意识到并观察自己的强迫性行为，行为模式本身就会开始发生改变。 2. **拆解稀缺回路的三大要素**： - 移除或改变**机会**（Opportunity）； - 消除或改变**不可预测的奖励**（Unpredictable Rewards）； - 打破**快速重复性**（Quick Repeatability），主动增加阻力、放慢节奏。 --- ### [36:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=2194s) “永不满足”的基因与身份地位游戏 人类天生带有一种“觉得自己还不够（Not being enough）”、渴望永无止境攫取更多的内在匮乏感。在生存物资匮乏的漫长进化史中，无论是食物、生活物资、情报还是社会地位，拥有越多的人越具备生存优势，这种对“更多”的渴望早已被写进人类的底层代码。 Easter 将话题抛回给 Steven Bartlett，询问身居高位、财务自由且经历过职业转型的他，这种对“更多”的渴望如何在生活中体现。Bartlett 坦诚地剖析了自己的心路历程： - **自以为脱离了虚荣游戏**：三四年前的 Bartlett 拥有劳力士手表、跑车和昂贵的名牌服饰；而如今他告别了这一切，常年穿着最简单统一的便装，他一度以为自己已经从追逐身份地位（Status）的泥潭中解脱出来。 - **反向信号（Anti-signaling）与游戏换轨**：后来他意识到，自己并没有真正退出地位游戏，只是更换了规则。在如今的社会阶层中，炫耀奢侈品反而成了一种低阶的“反向信号”；不穿名牌、保持极简反而彰显了更高的地位底气。他所热衷的竞赛只是从物质炫耀转向了其他维度——比如播客的受众规模有多大、自己在电视节目中的表现有多出色。 正如 Easter 所言，大多数人都喜欢自欺欺人，误以为自己超然物外不玩地位游戏，或者坚称游戏规则从未改变。事实上，就连心理学界在 1990 年代之前也很少深入研究地位问题，因为学者们甚至不愿坦白承认“地位对人类极其重要”——毕竟一旦公开立项研究，就等于变相承认了自己同样深陷于这场争夺地位的游戏之中。 ### [39:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=2343s) 地位焦虑与健康：飞机上的“机闹”与阶层对比 在探讨人类心理时，迈克尔·伊斯特（Michael Easter）指出一个有趣的悖论：维护社会地位最忌讳的一点，就是公然向外界承认自己在乎地位。几乎每个人都会摆出一副超然脱俗的姿态，声称“我根本不在乎别人怎么看我”，但这往往是一句谎话——在潜意识深处，所有人都不可避免地受制于地位欲望。从人类进化的角度来看，社会地位和影响力直接挂钩生存优势：地位更高的人不仅能够分到更多食物、拥有更多配偶，还无需承担消耗巨大体力的重体力苦差事。即便进入现代社会，这种古老的机制依然在发挥作用。 更残酷的现实体现在健康数据上。统计表明，社会地位较低的人群往往健康状况更差，而高地位人群的寿命明显更长。人们常常简单地将其归咎于财富差异和优质医疗资源的倾斜，但伊斯特强调，即使在实行全民医保、看病几乎完全平等的国家，这种阶层健康鸿沟依然显著。史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）补充道，这很大程度上取决于人们所从事的具体工作性质：低地位的工作往往意味着缺乏自主权、高度受限、环境孤立且单调乏味，这种持续的心理压抑会直接转化为损害生理机能的慢性压力。 伊斯特在撰写《Scarcity Brain》（稀缺大脑）时还发现了一项极为荒诞却真实的实证研究： - **存在头等舱的航班**：机舱内乘客暴怒、发生冲突（Air Rage，即“空怒症”或机闹事件）的概率是没有头等舱航班的 **4 倍**。 - **强制穿过头等舱**：如果经济舱乘客在登机时必须穿行经过头等舱，机舱冲突事件的发生率会直接飙升至 **9 倍**。 伊斯特解释说，这种情绪失控的根源在于强烈的“地位信号刺激（Status Cue）”。当经济舱乘客在穿过宽敞舒适的头等舱入座狭窄座位时，潜意识里被直接提醒了“你不如别人、你属于下层”，这种刺眼的阶层对比瞬间点燃了乘客无意识的愤怒与挫败感。 --- ### [41:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=2499s) 零食的诞生与商业成瘾的“3V 原则” 对话随后转向现代人无处不在的饮食习惯——零食（Snacking）。伊斯特指出，零食并不是人类与生俱来的饮食模式。直到 20 世纪 70 年代，食品工业才系统性地创造出了“在正餐之间吃东西”这一定义。在此之前，人们习惯于规律地吃一日三餐；而食品巨头为了开辟全新的盈利空间，开始生产体积小、容易快速吞咽的零食，并逐步普及这种饮食文化。恰恰从 70 年代零食风靡开始，全球肥胖率出现了前所未有的陡峭上升。 伊斯特提到，食品工业的一位高管曾直言不讳地分享过零食大卖的秘诀，这一逻辑与刺激成瘾行为的“稀缺循环（Scarcity Loop）”如出一辙，即 **“3V 原则”**： 1. **价值（Value）**：价格便宜且热量极高，让消费者觉得划算。 2. **多样性（Variety）**：提供层出不穷、浓烈而极端的风味刺激，比如薯片拥有烧烤味、酸奶油洋葱味、莎莎酱味等多种选择，持续调动味蕾的新鲜感。 3. **速度（Velocity）**：进食过程必须足够快。食物被超加工的程度越深，咀嚼和吞咽就越不费力，大脑对热量的摄入速度也就越快。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 零食工业的3V成瘾驱动模型 accDescr: 展示零食如何通过价值、多样性与速度构成稀缺成瘾闭环 subgraph 3V_Framework["零食成瘾的 3V 原则"] V1["Value（价值）<br/>高热量、廉价、易获取"] V2["Variety（多样性）<br/>浓郁重口与丰富口味"] V3["Velocity（速度）<br/>超加工、无需咀嚼、吞咽极快"] end Behavior["诱发无意识连续进食<br/>快速闭合成瘾循环"] Outcome["全天热量超标<br/>肥胖率自1970年代起剧增"] V1 --> Behavior V2 --> Behavior V3 --> Behavior Behavior --> Outcome ``` 巴特利特敏锐地发现，“进食速度（Velocity）”与博彩业的成瘾机制惊人一致。伊斯特对此表示认同：人类完成某个行为的速度越快、反馈结果来得越迅速，重复该行为的冲动就越强。例如，赌场老虎机技术史上最重大的变革就是**取消拉杆、换成旋转按钮（Spin Button）**。拉动把手需要耗费数秒且手部动作幅度大，而换成按钮后，玩家可以把手固定在按键上持续狂按。这一改动直接让玩家每小时的游戏局数从以往的 400 至 500 次暴增到平均 **900 次**——平均算下来，玩家按下按钮的频率甚至比人眨眼的次数还要频繁。 --- ### [44:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=2651s) 饱腹感悖论：水煮土豆与羊角面包的实验 面对零食和肥胖的蔓延，巴特利特提出疑问：“既然如此，我们不能仅靠严格监控热量，践行所谓的‘卡路里摄入与消耗（Calories In, Calories Out）’原则来维持健康吗？” 伊斯特回答，从纯粹的物理定律来看确实可行，甚至有人做过实验全天只吃麦当劳同时成功减重。但其致命缺陷在于：**如果你只吃超加工食品，你整天都会处于生不如死的极度饥饿中**。超加工食品单位卡路里带来的饱腹感极低，而天然单一成分的食材则恰恰相反。 伊斯特给巴特利特出了一道思考题：“如果摆在你面前的是一袋炸薯片和一盘白水煮土豆，你觉得哪一个你能吃下更多卡路里？”虽然两者原料都是土豆，但炸薯片在加工过程中脱去了水分、吸饱了油脂并浓缩了热量，人可以轻而易举地吃完一整袋；而水煮土豆保留了高水分与膳食纤维，吃上四分之一可能就已经饱得吃不下了。 伊斯特引用了澳大利亚一项著名的饱腹感指数研究（Holt et al. Satiety Index）：研究人员给受试者提供等卡路里的不同食物，并在随后开放的自助餐中精确测量受试者的实际进食量和饥饿程度评价。实验结果揭示了极大的反差： - **最抗饿、饱腹感最强的食物（每卡路里）**：水煮土豆位列榜首，其次是低脂肪的白肉鱼，紧接着是纯燕麦片。 - **最不抗饿、最缺乏饱腹感的食物**：以羊角面包（Croissant）和曲奇饼干为代表的面粉加糖脂烘焙食品垫底。 - **惊人对比**：一个小白水煮土豆和一个小羊角面包的热量相当，均约为 **170 卡路里**；但如果想获得与吃掉 1 个水煮土豆相同的饱腹感，你必须吃掉 **7 个羊角面包**。 这种差距的本质就在于食物的加工度——过度加工把面粉、脂肪等高能量物质压缩在一起，剥夺了水分和纤维，使得食物在胃部几乎不占体积，导致饱腹感信号被彻底架空。 --- ### [47:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=2839s) 能量密度、饱腹机制与断食的现实应用 伊斯特进一步拆解了体重控制中的物理机制：人的饱腹感在很大程度上取决于胃部被充盈的物理体积，而非摄入的热量数值本身。他用一个数学模型直观地解释了这一点： 假设一个人需要吃进 10 盎司的食物才能感到胃部充盈： - **低能量密度食物**（如天然蔬菜、土豆）：每盎司仅含 50 卡路里，吃饱时总共摄入 **500 卡路里**； - **高能量密度加工食品**：每盎司含有 100 卡路里甚至更多，吃饱时总摄入直接飙升到 **1000 卡路里**。 将这种每餐相差数百卡路里的差距放大到全天甚至一整年，就会形成不可逆转的体重分水岭。因此，减重的智慧并非盲目挨饿，而是通过选择低能量密度、高饱腹感的天然食品，在吃饱的同时自然降低总卡路里摄入。 最后，巴特利特询问了伊斯特对轻断食（Fasting / 间歇性禁食）的看法。伊斯特认为，断食对很多人来说确实是一个实用的体重控制工具，但它的核心价值在于**行为约束**。对于那些习惯全天候不停吃零食的人来说，如果规定自己只能在中午 12 点到下午 6 点或 7 点之间进餐，本质上是通过压缩时间窗口直接砍掉了吃零食的机会。然而他也警示道，断食并非灵丹妙药——如果有人抱着“反正我每天只在 6 小时内进食”的心态，在开放窗口期报复性暴饮暴食高热量垃圾食品，依然不可能减轻体重；不过在合理规划的前提下，阶段性断食确实能为身体代谢带来额外的健康收益。 ### [48:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=2936s) 间歇性断食与“饥饿日”：设定热量限制的杠杆 关于断食的讨论，迈克尔·伊斯特（Michael Easter）指出，长时间的断食（extended fasts）可能并不适合所有人，尤其是它可能对肌肉量（muscle mass）造成负面影响。这归根结底取决于个人的具体目标以及如何正确使用该工具。断食之所以对许多人有效，原因其实非常直接：许多人以前早餐习惯极差，比如上班路上总会在星巴克停下来买一杯高糖饮料，而间歇性断食让他们在中午前不进食，仅仅砍掉这顿糟糕的高糖早餐，热量摄入大幅下降，体重自然减轻。 史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）随后提到了伊斯特在书中谈到的“饥饿日”（Hungry Days）概念，即每周主动安排两天少吃。伊斯特解释道，这是一种在实践中行之有效的方法：每周有五天保持相对正常的饮食，另外两天则将热量严格限制在约 500 卡路里左右。从本质上讲，这只是通过“时间杠杆”来人为制造热量缺口。无论采取何种饮食策略，卡路里收支平衡始终是预测体重增减的核心指标，而断食最大的优势在于它“简单得要命”，远没有其他复杂饮食法则那么多条条框框。 - **断食减重的核心机制**：通过限制进食窗口，自然排除早餐中的隐形高糖与垃圾食品。 - **5:2 饥饿日模式**：每周 5 天正常进食，2 天摄入约 500 卡路里，以拉低全周总热量摄入。 --- ### [50:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3017s) 跑步机错觉：疲劳是大脑讲述的心理故事 巴特利特分享了一个他在波士顿跑步时的亲身经历：他原本每天习惯在跑步机上跑 5 到 10 公里，每次跑到这个距离节点，身体都会准时袭来强烈的疲倦感。然而有一次在波士顿，那台跑步机的距离显示仪表坏了，他完全看不到自己跑了多远，便决定“凭感觉跑到疲劳为止”。结果他跑得停不下来，最后只是因为赶着去赴一个约会才按下停止键。当机器停下跳出数据时，他震惊地发现自己跑了平时距离的两倍，而且当时身体竟然“感觉良好”（felt fine），完全没有平时的力竭感。这次经历让他坚信，身体所谓的极限在很大程度上是心理层面的幻觉，正如伊斯特在《舒适危机》（*The Comfort Crisis*）中所阐述的“心理疲劳与肌肉疲劳”的关系。 伊斯特对这一观点完全赞同。他提到多项心理学研究：研究人员让受试者竭尽全力跑步，并暗中操纵时钟的快慢。如果将时钟调快，受试者实际只跑了 40 分钟，但时钟显示为 1 小时 5 分钟，受试者就会坚信自己已经超越了大多数人的极限，随即感到彻底筋疲力尽；反之，如果将时钟调慢，受试者即使已经跑了 1 小时 30 分钟，只要时钟显示才刚超过 1 小时，他们依然能咬牙坚持。这证明我们感受到的疲劳深度，核心取决于心理认知。 伊斯特强调，不适感完全取决于“你给自己讲述的故事”。他举了一个生动的对比：当你在跑上坡路时，双腿痉挛发酸，你会觉得糟透了、想立刻放弃；但如果是性爱过程中双腿同样发酸痉挛，你的大脑却会觉得这体验妙不可言。情境（context）决定了一切。从进化生理学来看，大脑扮演着“保护机制”（defense mechanism）的角色：人体不会一次性调动 100% 的肌肉潜能，大脑总会留出一部分应急储备，在真正到达生理极限之前就提前踩下刹车、向身体发送疲劳信号。虽然人们不可能凭意志力瞬间从 50% 潜能跃升至 100%，但通过重新构建认知——意识到“情况其实没那么糟，而且这是我自己主动选择的挑战”——就能压榨出更出色的表现。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 大脑对运动疲劳的心理防御与认知调控机制 accDescr: 展示身体感知到肌肉不适时，大脑如何通过心理预设提前踩刹车，以及认知重塑如何扩展表现潜能 subgraph Physiology["生理负荷与感知"] A["高强度身体负荷\n(肌肉酸痛/心率上升)"] --> B["不适信号向上传递"] end subgraph BrainGovernor["大脑防御与认知过滤"] B --> C["心理中枢评估\n(情境定义与安全边际)"] C --> D{"心理预设与线索"} D -- "达到预设极限\n(看表/固定距离认知)" --> E["中枢神经提前踩刹车\n发出极度力竭虚假警报"] D -- "打破预期/正面重塑\n(盲跑/主动挑战框架)" --> F["允许释放储备潜能\n推迟主观疲劳来临"] end E --> G["放弃运动 / 性能下降"] F --> H["跑出超常耐力与表现"] ``` --- ### [53:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3220s) 北极荒野 33 天：极端剥夺带来的感知重置与感恩 巴特利特感叹如果有一种能瞬间重构不适感的“神奇药丸”该有多好。伊斯特则指出，这种认知的重塑不仅适用于极端耐力运动，更适用于日常生活的方方面面，而最有效的“药丸”就是将自己置于极端对比的环境中。他分享了自己在阿拉斯加北极荒野生活 33 天的经历：在出发前，他极其厌恶坐飞机，从拉斯维加斯飞往西雅图的航程里，他一路抱怨机舱太闷热、座位狭窄逼仄、机上电影无聊透顶、洗手间像个狭小的壁橱、机舱里还有婴儿啼哭不止。 随后，他在北极荒野度过了一个多月：全程处于持续的饥饿之中；想要喝水，必须冒着严寒徒步到山下的溪流打水再背上来；浑身冻得发抖，每天只能坐在泥地里；想要上厕所，必须全副武装端着步枪走到广袤的冻原上，因为随时可能遭遇灰熊袭击；没有手机、没有屏幕，无聊到了极点。 然而，当他结束这一个月的荒野生存、重新坐上返回拉斯维加斯的同一趟航班时，整个世界彻底颠覆了： * **座椅**：一个多月没坐过椅子的他，坐上飞机的普通软座时惊呼“这把椅子简直舒适得不可思议”； * **温度**：曾被他嫌弃太闷热的客舱，现在感觉无比温暖惬意； * **娱乐**：椅背上简陋的小屏幕电影，在他眼里成了“这辈子看过最令人兴奋刺激的画面”； * **机上零食**：过去觉得难吃的飞机蝴蝶脆饼（pretzels），吃起来如同绝世珍馐； * **洗手间洗手**：最让他震撼的瞬间发生在飞机洗手间——他按下一个红色水龙头按钮，热气腾腾的水流瞬间冲刷过他的双手。那一刻他内心极度震撼：“你正坐在一个以每小时 600 英里在 35,000 英尺高空穿梭的钢铁飞管里，居然能有即时热水流过双手！”他甚至激动得几乎落泪。 伊斯特由此感叹，现代人生活的世界在方方面面都堪称奇迹：我们拥有按需提供的冷热水、无穷无尽的娱乐内容，不再需要为了求生而在荒野中狩猎采集。然而，现代人却如同“身在水中不知水存在”的游鱼一样，完全对此视而不见。主动经历一些跳出舒适区的大小挑战，能让人获得一种审视生活的基准参照物，在日后每次拧开热水水龙头洗手时，都能激发起对平凡生活的由衷感激。 --- ### [57:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3421s) 享乐适应与“问题蔓延”：为什么烦恼永远不会消失 巴特利特由此联想到斯多葛学派（Stoicism）的修行方式：古罗马的哲学家们会主动剥离生活中的舒适享受，以此对抗“享乐适应”（hedonic adaptation），从而在回归日常时能够重新体会到幸福。伊斯特赞同道，人类天生擅长适应已拥有的事物，今天的极致享乐，到了明天就会沦为索然无味的寻常事，驱使我们不断去追逐下一个刺激源。 更关键的是，不仅快乐会钝化，我们对“问题”的感知也是如此。伊斯特分享了《舒适危机》中记录的一项哈佛大学心理学研究：当人们生活中的真实问题越来越少时，人们并不会因此变得满足，反而会主动寻找或制造出新的问题。在心理学上，这一现象被称为“患病率诱导的概念改变”（Prevalence-Induced Concept Change），或者通俗地称为**“问题蔓延”（Problem Creep）**。 在哈佛大学的这项经典实验中，受试者被要求依次观察计算机屏幕上闪过的一系列人脸，并判断每张面孔是“具有威胁性”还是“毫无威胁”。随着测试的推进，研究人员暗中减少了具有真实威胁性面孔的出现频率。然而受试者的反应却出乎意料——当面对几百张面孔之后，随着恶意的面孔几乎绝迹，受试者并没有得出“环境变安全了”的结论，反而悄然放宽了对“威胁”的评判标准，开始把原本中性甚至完全温和的面孔标记为具有攻击性。这精准揭示了人类大脑寻找问题的本能机制。 ### [58:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3497s) 概念蔓延：为什么世界越好，我们越爱挑毛病 在心理学实验中，哈佛大学研究员戴维·莱瓦里（David Levari）等人向受试者展示一系列面孔，要求他们分辨哪些面孔具有威胁性；在另一项平行实验中，受试者则需要阅读学术论文提案，并判断其是否符合伦理道德。实验进行到中途时，研究人员暗中改变了规则，向受试者展示具有威胁性的面孔和不道德提案的频率大幅减少。如果人类的大脑是客观理性的，受试者识别出威胁或违规的次数本应随之骤降；然而事实恰恰相反，他们报告威胁的次数几乎完全没变。受试者自发降低了判定阈值，开始把先前被视为中立、模棱两可的面孔划为“危险”，在审阅提案时也变得愈发吹毛求疵。这种现象被称为“概念蔓延”（prevalence-induced concept change）。 迈克尔·伊斯特（Michael Easter）指出，这种心理机制在远古时代曾是一项决定生死的进化优势。在充满危机的原始自然环境中，始终保持警惕、主动搜寻下一个潜在问题的人更容易生存下来——如果一个人时刻处于“食物可能不够吃、这里潜伏着危机、我们必须立刻解决”的警戒状态，这种危机感能确保部族免遭覆灭。然而，当这种基因底色被置于持续向好、物质丰富的现代社会时，却让人类对世界的巨大进步视而不见，反而陷入了层出不穷的“第一世界烦恼”（first world problems）中。有民意调查向美国公众提问“你认为世界正在变好吗？”，结果仅有 6% 的人给出了肯定回答。然而纵观过去 500 年的人类历史，无论是在预期寿命、识字率、饥荒减少还是儿童存活率方面，世界都取得了毋庸置疑的飞跃式改善，但我们的大脑却依然在不知疲倦地搜寻下一个“威胁”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 概念蔓延心理机制 accDescr: 展示环境客观问题减少时，人类大脑如何自动降低门槛并寻找新问题。 subgraph 实验刺激与心理反应 A["外部客观威胁/问题减少"] --> B["大脑判定阈值自动下调"] B --> C["原本中立的事物被视作问题"] C --> D["主观感受到的问题数量维持恒定"] end subgraph 现实映射 D --> E["远古时代：警惕性带来生存优势"] D --> F["现代社会：催生'第一世界烦恼'与焦虑"] end ``` ### [01:00:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3620s) 物质富足下的幸福悖论与古老解法 面对世界的物质极大丰富，史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）随即追问：物质的积累是否让我们变得更幸福？伊斯特坦言，几乎所有关于群体幸福感的研究都得出了令人沮丧的结论——现代人的幸福感不升反降，抑郁症及各类心理健康障碍的患病率持续飙升。在发达国家，绝大多数人的基本生理需求早已得到充分满足，贫困往往更多源于社会分配和制度问题而非绝对物资匮乏。然而，财富的成倍累积并没有换来等比例的快乐。 具体数据显示，从 1970 年到 2000 年左右，计入通胀与物价调整后，美国人的实际人均收入增长了整整 50%，但全社会的幸福感曲线却完全走平，甚至略有微跌。这表明一旦人类的基本生存需求跨过某个临界阈值，物质增长与主观幸福感便彻底脱钩。然而人类的本能却始终诱导着大众，坚信快乐就藏在“下一笔消费、下一顿昂贵大餐、或是下一条病毒式传播的热门推特”之中。当巴特利特询问是否存在对抗这种永无休止搜寻问题的解药时，伊斯特表示这正是人类终极的精神探索。各大古老宗教之所以能延续千年，其核心架构正是为了对抗这种贪欲与失控：告诫人们戒除偷盗以防社会分崩离析，戒除暴食以防身体受损；宗教的核心逻辑都在于“将注意力从自我身上移开，转向更高的使命或帮助他人”，从而在诱惑充斥的世俗中做出正确的选择。 - **实际收入与幸福感脱节**：1970 年至 2000 年间，经通胀调整后的美国人实际收入增长了 50%，但主观幸福感不仅没有上升，反而略微下降。 - **心理健康困境**：伴随物质财富与消费选择爆炸式增长的，是现代社会抑郁症和各类心理障碍发病率的同步攀升。 ### [01:02:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3762s) 缺乏运动是毒药：奔跑与负重徒步（Rucking）的进化科学 巴特利特谈到团队最近掀起的跑步热潮，并提及曾做客节目的哈佛大学进化生物学教授丹尼尔·利伯曼（Daniel Lieberman），借此询问伊斯特关于运动、奔跑以及游牧部落生活方式的核心见解。伊斯特开门见山地指出，锻炼无疑是维护健康最强有力的手段；但比起常被引用的“运动即良药”（exercise is medicine），他更倾向于认为“缺乏运动是毒药”（inactivity is poison）。人类身体在数百万年的进化历程中被编码了固定强度的日常身体活动，这种活动是维持健康与心智稳定的生理必需品，而现代生活的设计却几乎将这一基底全盘剔除。 在伊斯特的著作《舒适危机》（*The Comfort Crisis*）中，他指出人体在漫长的进化中主要被塑造出两项无与伦比的身体技能： 1. **以相对慢速进行超长距离奔跑**：正如利伯曼所发现的“耐力狩猎”假说，人类凭借高效的排汗散热系统，能在烈日下长途追逐那些无法有效降温的动物，直至猎物因体温过高虚脱倒地。 2. **长距离负重搬运物体**：猎杀成功后，远古猎人不可能“叫一辆远古 Uber 专车”，他们必须将沉重的猎物一路搬运回部落营地。 人类具备极其强健的双手抓握能力与独特的骨骼架构，是自然界中唯一能够长距离高效负重搬运的动物。然而在现代健身风潮中，慢跑早已风靡全球，长途负重搬运却几乎在人们的日常生活中销声匿迹。为此，伊斯特极力倡导“负重徒步”（Rucking——即背负装有一定重量的背包进行行走）。与跑步相比，负重徒步不仅损伤发生率显著降低，还能在消耗热量的同时最大程度保留肌肉量。跑步往往会同时消耗脂肪和肌肉，而背负重物行走时施加在骨骼与肌肉上的负荷，会向身体释放保护肌肉的生理信号，从而完美兼顾了心肺有氧训练与力量负荷刺激。 ### [01:05:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3945s) 狩猎采集者的身体素质与现代退化 在谈及现代人类与狩猎采集部族在生理结构上的差异时，伊斯特结合自身在游牧部落的实地观察指出，现代西方人往往容易产生认知误区。得益于过剩的营养供应，现代西方人体型异常高大、甚至普遍庞大超重；相比之下，大多数狩猎采集者由于食物获取有限且整日处于高强度运动中，体型普遍精瘦瘦小。在衡量能量消耗时，不能简单对比绝对卡路里数值——如果一个体重 250 磅的现代肥胖者和一个体重 120 磅的猎人同样消耗 3000 大卡，换算成每磅体重的代谢率，狩猎采集者的身体代谢强度与热量消耗远超现代西方人。 从肌肉力量与身体功能性来看，现代人的体魄甚至退化得令人震惊。考古生物学数据显示，史前女性平均的手臂力量比现代女子奥运赛艇运动员还要强出 16%。伊斯特还分享了一位在坦桑尼亚与哈扎族（Hadza）等狩猎采集部落共同生活的人类学家的真实经历：部族中七八十岁的高龄老妇人依然能够整天在外徒步穿越荒野，在崎岖的岩石障碍之间轻松飞跃奔跑，“动作敏捷得像怪物一样”。那位年仅三十来岁、正值壮年的现代女研究员，反而气喘吁吁地落在队伍最后，被年龄是自己近三倍的老妇人们远远甩在身后。这种惊人的体能反差，完全归功于那些原始部族在一生中从未停止过与自然环境的高频对抗与身体使用。 ### [01:07:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4073s) 原始部落的日常活动与现代“人造健身”的异化 Michael Easter 指出，狩猎采集者终其一生都能保持活跃并维持肌肉量。在他们的日常生活中，一切活动都需要付出体力努力：他们不仅要走很长的路，而且是在崎岖不平的户外地形上前行，这本身就比走在平整的水泥人行道上消耗更多能量。他们时刻都在负重搬运物品、深蹲、挖掘，甚至爬树。更关键的是，即便在休息时，他们也往往采取深蹲或动态坐姿，而现代人则是直接“瘫倒融化”在 Lazy Boy 懒人沙发里。狩猎采集者整天都处于某种低强度的身体活动之中。 人类天生倾向于选择最轻松、最舒适的路径，现代科技正是顺应这一进化本能，把绝大多数日常体力活动从生活环境中“设计剔除”了。但当我们意识到这种舒适导致了各种现代疾病后，人类想出的解决方案却是发明了所谓的“锻炼（Exercise）”：建造一座座装满器械的水泥大楼，让人站在旋转的橡胶履带上跑步，或者举起配重完美对称的铁块，严格做着“一组十次、连做三组”的动作。Michael 直言，过去的人类绝不会为了长出巨大的块头去举铁——在食物匮乏的自然界，维持庞大的无用肌肉既不可行也不明智；就像优秀的登山者绝不会刻意增肌增重，核心原则始终是“在自身体重下尽可能强大，但绝不携带多余冗余的体重”。 针对现代健身文化对庞大肌肉量的执迷，Steven Bartlett 提出徒手自重训练（Calisthenics）或许才最契合人类本质，关键在于能自如掌控并移动自身体重，而非练出巨大的臂围。Michael 对此表示赞同，并澄清了关于肌肉与长寿的研究：许多显示肌肉量有益长寿的研究，对比的其实是患有肌少症（Sarcopenia，肌肉量危险过低）的人群，并不意味着肌肉越多越好。对于普通人而言，最佳状态是保持健康的 BMI、相对于自身体重拥有强大的力量，并配合充分的心血管有氧训练。 - 狩猎采集者全天维持低强度活动：走崎岖路面、负重、深蹲、攀爬，休息时也多采取蹲姿而非完全瘫坐。 - 现代环境工程把身体活动彻底剔除，逼得人类“发明”了健身房、跑步机与机械式抗阻训练。 - 肌肉量的健康黄金点是避免肌少症，追求相对体重的力量（Strength-to-weight ratio），盲目追求 250 磅巨型肌肉与人类进化机制背道而驰。 --- ### [01:10:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4256s) 为什么原住民觉得“为了运动而跑步”极其荒谬？ Steven Bartlett 分享了哈佛大学人类进化生物学教授丹尼尔·利伯曼（Daniel Lieberman）告诉他的一个震撼细节：当利伯曼在非洲调研并询问狩猎采集部落平日“做什么运动来锻炼身体”时，部落族人甚至忍不住笑话他，反问道：“为什么要平白无故为了好玩去跑步？”在他们的认知里，根本没有孤立的“锻炼（Exercise）”或“训练（Training）”概念，因为生存劳作本身就是持续不断的身体运动。 Michael 解释道，在工业革命之前，人类绝大多数都从事繁重的农业劳作，全天都在为了生存而劳作输出体力。在那种生存压力下，任何不必要的额外消耗都是对宝贵卡路里的浪费。运动锻炼纯粹是现代社会用技术消除了所有日常劳作之后，人类为了不让自己病倒而人为发明的代偿工具。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 身体活动在不同时代的演变逻辑 accDescr: 展示从狩猎采集到农业时代再到现代工业社会中身体活动形式的剧烈转变 subgraph Primitive["远古与农业时代"] A["生存压力与农业劳作"] --> B["全天低至中强度自然运动\n(攀爬/负重/追猎/耕作)"] B --> C["极力避免额外体力消耗\n(概念中不存在单独的锻炼)"] end subgraph Modern["现代工业化社会"] D["科技与自动化环境"] --> E["体力支出被系统性归零\n(久坐/沙发/平地)"] E --> F["现代慢性病与体能退化"] F --> G["发明人造健身模式\n(健身房/跑步机/三组十次举铁)"] end Primitive -.->|"技术替代劳作"| Modern ``` --- ### [01:12:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4322s) 跑步机 vs 越野跑：户外运动是大脑的高阶微积分 随后，对话转向了运动的心理与认知维度。Steven 提到，人类祖先在自然中奔跑时，精神处于高度警觉状态，周围可能随时窜出猛兽；而现代人在健身房跑步机上迈步时，却只是盯着屏幕看 Netflix 或者真人秀《比弗利娇妻》（Real Housewives），这种精神与肉体的割裂是否会产生本质区别？ Michael 在其名为“2%”的个人通讯栏目中对此做过深度剖析。他指出，在自然界中运动（如越野跑 Trail Running）绝不仅仅是双腿的机械交替，而是极其高负荷的认知任务： 1. **落脚点决策**：地面遍布岩石、树根与坑洼，每一步都要实时计算脚掌着力点与平衡； 2. **节奏与资源调配**：必须根据前方距离、当前气温、体能消耗以及携带的水量，动态微调自身步频与呼吸； 3. **环境感知与追踪猎物**：注意外围视野中的潜在危险（如猛兽），在追踪猎物时需辨识被折断的树枝或微弱的血迹。 Michael 打了一个生动的比方：**在跑步机上看电视就像是做个位数加法，而在真实荒野中奔跑则相当于解多元微积分（Multivariable Calculus）**。南加州大学（USC）的研究学者戴维·赖克伦（David Raichlen）对此有深入研究，他发现室内机械运动使大脑认知功能几乎处于“关机”状态；相反，在崎岖自然中运动会迫使大脑进行剧烈的认知运算，从长远来看对大脑健康与抗衰具有巨大保护价值。此外，户外复杂地形的起伏也会带来更高的卡路里消耗与更全面的功能性体能收益。 --- ### [01:14:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4476s) 节目赞助鸣谢：Whoop 与 Huel 的健康管理启示 Steven 在中段切入赞助商环节。首先谈到健康监测手环 **Whoop**，Steven 坦言自己过去对自身身体状况一无所知，直到使用 Whoop 追踪睡眠剥夺与不良生活方式对内脏系统的长期损害后，才真正体会到“知识就是力量”；很多朋友因害怕看到糟糕的数据而逃避体检监测，但直面真实生理指标才是做出正向改变的起点（提供 30 天无风险试用）。 随后 Steven 提及代餐品牌 **Huel** 的即饮系列（Ready-to-Drink / RTD）。临近年底最后季度，气温降低、工作节奏加快，保持规律营养变得困难；Huel RTD 在一分钟内即可提供全营养代餐，成为他在繁重职场目标与健康目标之间保持平衡的高效解决方案。 ### [01:16:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4581s) 现代鞋履与退化的身体：足底筋膜炎的启示 主持人 Steven Bartlett 分享了他之前与人类进化生物学教授 Daniel Lieberman 交流后获得的顿悟。在与 Lieberman 对话前不久，Steven 的脚部遭遇了严重的健康问题——足底筋膜炎（Plantar fasciitis）。某天清晨醒来，他的脚底剧烈肿胀，疼痛到几乎无法下地行走。最初医生为他配制了矫正鞋垫，但他后来在探索病因时意识到：现代人从小到大每天都穿着拥有 1 英寸（或数厘米）厚重缓震气垫与增高鞋跟的鞋子，整个制鞋产业都在宣传鞋跟落差和气垫如何保护膝盖、提升运动舒适度，但这其实让双脚变得极其孱弱。 当 Steven 为了一场重要的足球赛开始高强度训练时，从未经受过足够负荷锻炼的脆弱双脚立刻支撑不住崩溃了。他打了一个非常生动形象的比方：**“想象一下，如果一个孩子刚出生，我们就在他的两只手上戴上厚达一厘米的手套，那双小手长大后会有多孱弱无力！而这恰恰就是我们对双脚所做的事情。”** 意识到这一点后，Steven 彻底摒弃了厚底鞋，转而换成了赤足鞋（Barefoot shoes）。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代过度保护环境导致身体机能退化的恶性循环 accDescr: 展示了舒适环境如何弱化人体结构，并在偶尔施加负荷时引发疼痛与代偿。 subgraph Weakening["现代舒适保护"] A["厚底鞋 / 软垫座椅 / 舒适办公环境"] --> B["剥夺日常自然受力与抗阻刺激"] B --> C["足底、核心及背部肌肉严重退化萎缩"] end subgraph Breakdown["负荷断层与损伤"] C --> D["偶尔暴露于负荷（硬拉、足球赛、剧烈运动）"] D --> E["超出舒适圈脆弱承受极限"] E --> F["引发足底筋膜炎、急性背痛与肩颈伤病"] end ``` --- ### [01:17:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4666s) 80% 人群的背痛顽疾：久坐舒适区的昂贵代价 Michael Easter 赞同了这一观点，并指出这绝不仅仅关乎鞋子，而是整个现代生活方式的缩影。人体在进化中原本被设计为需要持续接收一定量的力学刺激输入，但现代环境却竭尽全力剥夺了这些生理负荷： * **全球高达 80% 的成年人在人生某个阶段会经历背痛**，背痛不仅是人类最常见的疼痛，在医疗和旷工方面还带来了巨大的经济损失。 * 过去人类坐姿多为深蹲或席地盘坐，需要动用躯干核心肌肉来支撑脊柱；而现代人每天在办公椅上瘫坐 8 小时，舒适的靠背替背部承担了一切支撑工作。 * 一旦这群肌肉长期缺乏锻炼的人走进健身房尝试做一次硬拉，或者突然搬起重物，处于萎缩状态的背肌就会立刻抗议，导致严重的拉伤和剧痛。肩颈痛等各种慢性疼痛亦是同一机理——我们为自己打造了极度舒适的微小温室，一旦身体越出这个狭小的“舒适圈”，代价便接踵而至。 针对这一问题，Michael 提出了一个极其简易的日常改善方法：**多坐在地板上（Sitting on the floor）**。坐在地板上时没有宽大的靠背可以倚靠瘫软，身体核心必须主动发力以维持躯干直立；同时，由于长时间维持一个姿势会感到酸麻不适，人会自然而然地频繁调整坐姿、变换髋关节与双腿的摆放角度，这种小幅度但高频的活动能极大地激活肌肉、改善关节灵活性并预防慢性疼痛。 --- ### [01:20:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4816s) 成为“2%的人”：微小不适的复利效应 讨论转入日常中如何刻意引入有益的“健康不适感（Healthy Discomfort）”。Michael 提出了著名的 **“2% 人群”（The Two-Percenter）** 理论。该理论源自一项行为学研究：当面前同时出现常规楼梯与自动扶梯时，即便在场 100% 的人都心知肚明走楼梯对长期健康大有裨益，**最终真正选择走楼梯的人仅有 2%**。人类的大脑本能天生倾向于选择最省力、最舒适的捷径，但在现代充斥着过剩与便利的环境中，这种本能已演化成健康的杀手。 所谓成为“2% 的人”，就是主动在现实和隐喻层面上跨出舒适圈，去抓取日常中那些完全可承受的微小不适： * **在工作中走动通话**：与其缩在昏暗的办公室椅上打业务电话，不如站起来一边快走一边通话，一趟电话不知不觉就能积累 1.5 英里的步行动力；进阶者甚至可以背上 10 磅或 20 磅的负重包（Rucking）。 * **把车停在“西伯利亚”**：去超市购物时，不要在入口处兜圈抢车位，而是故意把车停在距离大门最远的停车区域，强迫自己多走路。 * **亲手提生活杂物**：日常多用双手提搬杂物和采购的食材，许多背痛本可以通过日常负重搬运自愈。 针对许多人“走一次楼梯不过多消耗 5 卡路里，根本无足轻重”的质疑，Michael 强调了行为的全局观： > “如果你每天坚持做 10 次这种选择，并将它放大延展到漫长的一生中，我向你保证，你的健康水平一定会远超那些总是选择舒适捷径的人。” 如果在一天 24 小时里，有 23.5 个小时都在顺从最懒散、最省力的诱惑，却指望健身房里的 30 分钟能够逆转一切，那是对身体运作本质的彻底误解。 --- ### [01:23:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4987s) 肌少症的恶性螺旋与心理层面的突破 Steven 深入分析了微习惯背后的**正向复利与负向复利**机制。多爬楼梯燃烧微量卡路里并刺激微量肌肉生长，这部分肌肉力量会增强行动能力，驱动人去参与更多体力活动；反之，若持续回避负荷，人体就会陷入老年学中常提的肌肉退化/肌少症（Sarcopenia）恶性螺旋： ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 肌肉衰退的恶性螺旋机制 accDescr: 描绘了减少活动与肌肉衰减之间互为因果、加速老龄化和死亡的恶性循环。 subgraph DownwardSpiral["肌少症恶性下行螺旋"] M1["活动减少"] --> M2["肌肉流失萎缩"] M2 --> M3["行动机能衰退"] M3 --> M1 end M3 --> M4["加速衰老与死亡"] ``` Michael 指出，“2%”的挑战法则不仅停留在生理层面，更是一场深刻的**心理学重塑**： * 当婚姻或人际关系中出现裂痕时，人们习惯性逃避，而“2%的人”会鼓起勇气开启那场艰难但必须面对的对话。 * 当手头的攻坚项目遇到巨大阻力时，本能反应是抓起手机刷屏或起身泡咖啡逃避，而克制冲动、多忍受几分钟的枯燥与艰难全力推进，往往正是重大突破和转变诞生的时刻。 对此，Steven 提出了对“信念（Beliefs）”本质的独到反思：人们不可能单纯靠“主观意愿”去强行更改自身深信不疑的观念（即便被人用枪指着头，人也只能伪装附和，无法欺骗内心的确信）。所谓的**信念，本质上是我们在漫长生活中主动或被动收集并认可的“证据堆叠（A stack of evidence）”**——唯有通过身体力行的行动与持续累积的经验，才能在潜移默化中替换掉底层证据链，重塑对自我的认知。 ### [01:24:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5096s) 自我叙事的复利效应与不向心魔妥协 关于人在不适情境下的反应，史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提到了他之前采访世界职业拳王小克里斯·尤班克（Chris Eubank Jr.）时听到的一个震撼细节。小尤班克曾透露，哪怕自己独自一人在家里的跑步机上跑步，如果原定计划是跑 10 英里，当跑到第 9 英里时腿突然抽筋，就算身边空无一人、根本没人盯着他看，他也必须一瘸一拐地把最后一英里硬撑着跑完。小尤班克当时给出的理由掷地有声：“我绝不能让心魔潜入（I can't let the demons in）。”史蒂文分析道，小尤班克真正表达的是，他绝不允许潜意识里滋生出一种全新的自我认知——“我是一个在艰难时刻会选择放弃的人”。因为一旦在私底下妥协，到了世界拳王争霸赛的第 12 回合、整个人瘫坐在角落板凳上精疲力竭想要认输时，这种轻言放弃的自我叙事就会立刻卷土重来。 迈克尔·伊斯特对此深表赞同，并指出这与之前讨论的“走楼梯还是坐电梯”在心理机制上如出一辙。日常生活中这些看似微不足道的小抉择，会在心理层面上产生强大的复利效应，不断塑造我们如何定义自我以及我们与不适感之间的关系。重塑自我叙事最强有力的途径，就是主动兑现那些让自己感到不适的自我承诺。一旦你跨出了选择走楼梯的第一步，你的心智就会悄然转变，开始相信自己能够完成 3 英里的跑步，接着就会挑战 5 英里，原本看似遥不可及的目标会随着行动的积累逐一被攻克。 - **小克里斯·尤班克（Chris Eubank Jr.）的跑步机法则**：独自在家跑 10 英里，即便第 9 英里抽筋也必须瘸着跑完最后一英里，绝不给内心轻言放弃的负面叙事留任何生存缝隙。 - **微小选择的心理复利**：无论是爬楼梯还是兑现自我承诺，每一次在舒适与艰难之间的抉择，都在悄然书写我们对自身承受极限的潜意识认知。 --- ### [01:26:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5167s) 跨出舒适区：约瑟夫·坎贝尔的“英雄之旅”与北极洗礼 信念的转变无法仅靠凭空说教，而必须通过真实的肉体和情感经历来获取铁证。迈克尔回忆起自己在阿拉斯加北极荒原度过的那一个月，在此之前，他从未想过自己具备在极端环境下生存整整一个月的毅力，也从未对现代文明中伸手即得的便利产生过发自肺腑的感激。迈克尔坦言，如果只是坐在温暖舒适的房间里整天对自己默念“打开水龙头就有热水真好”，情绪上根本产生不了实质性的共鸣与敬畏；唯有肉身被彻底扔出舒适区，去亲历严苛的肉体考验，遮蔽认知的面纱才会被真正揭开。 迈克尔指出，这种经历完美契合了神话学大师约瑟夫·坎贝尔（Joseph Campbell）所归纳的“英雄之旅”（The Hero's Journey）。坎贝尔在研究跨越人类历史与各大文明的神话故事后发现，所有传说都共享着几乎一模一样的底层叙事结构：英雄接收到冒险的召唤，但过程注定凶险万分；主人公最初必定心生抗拒、不想直面痛苦，然而一旦他们咬牙接受挑战，就会坠入充满磨难与考验的“中途试炼之地（Middle Ground）”。恰恰是在深渊与浓雾中挣扎突围的过程，让人类彻底摸清了自己的真实潜能。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 英雄之旅与心智迭代模型 accDescr: 展示从接收召唤、深渊试炼到认知重塑并迎接下一次循环的心智进化流程。 subgraph Phase1["召唤与抗拒"] A["冒险的召唤<br/>（直面未知与艰难）"] --> B["本能抗拒<br/>（渴望舒适与安全）"] end subgraph Phase2["试炼与破局"] B --> C["跃入试炼深渊<br/>（穿越迷雾与极端挑战）"] C --> D["发掘隐藏潜能<br/>（获得超越想象的承载力）"] end subgraph Phase3["重塑与升级"] D --> E["心智永久重塑<br/>（对舒适心存敬畏）"] E --> F["开启下一轮迭代<br/>（迎接更高级的人生试炼）"] end ``` 史蒂文感叹道，现代人往往本末倒置，总在等待“证据”出现才敢踏上冒险，却不明白证据只有在亲自经历冒险后才会浮现。在远古时代，人类没有退路，要么必须跋涉数日参与生死狩猎，要么暴风雨来临时必须在 24 小时内翻越看似不可逾越的高山，否则就会丧命；当他们死里逃生越过山脊时，才会惊觉“原来我体内潜藏着如此强大的力量”。现代生活消除了生死威胁，把所有人包裹在安逸却受限的温室中，阻隔了人们走向边界探寻自我的可能。迈克尔半开玩笑地澄清，他并不是呼吁大家盲目辞职，而是鼓励每个人每年至少抽出两周时间，去体验一次真正脱离舒适区、能够永久改变自我的硬核挑战。 --- ### [01:29:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5361s) 对不确定性的恐惧：Uber实验与无名隐修士的深渊箴言 阻碍现代人跨出冒险步伐的最大阻力，归根结底是对“不确定性”的极度恐惧。许多人在考虑换工作、开启全新人生旅程时，都被这种狂暴的心理逆风死死按在原地。史蒂文提到了 Uber 旗下实验室（Uber Labs）的研究发现：在打车和外卖的客户体验中，让用户最难以忍受的并非耗时长短，而是“不可预测的未知感”。早年人们在路边招出租车时，只能在茫茫未知中苦等；Uber 通过在地图上实时显示车辆轨迹和预计到达时间，彻底消除了这种心理折磨。在日常生活中同样如此，航班延误时，与其屏幕只冰冷地显示“延误”，旅客更愿意看到明确标注“延误 2 小时”。史蒂文表示，很多向他倾诉迷茫的普通人，宁可停留在“确定的痛苦（certain misery）”中日复一日地消耗，也不愿承受迈向新生所必然伴随的“不确定性”。 迈克尔分享了他在撰写《稀缺大脑》（Scarcity Brain）期间读到的一部 19 世纪奇特古籍。那是一位在法国深山洞穴中过着严苛静默隐修生活的僧侣留下的未署名日记，书中有一句震撼心灵的警句：“你在犹豫要不要纵身跃入深渊时所承担的风险，远远超乎你的想象（You risk so much hesitating to fling yourself into the abyss）。” 迈克尔强调，置身于现代社会的丰裕环境与福利安全网之下，哪怕你在冒险中失去一切，最坏的结果也绝不可能危及生命。你过去的聪明才智和解题能力依然存在，完全可以东山再起。更重要的是，不确定性从来都不是生活中的缺陷（bug），而是一项极其宝贵的功能（feature）： - **确定性扼杀激情**：如果做一件事的结果从一开始就完全注定，生活将索然无味毫无生机。 - **未知孕育超额回报**：不可预测性本身充满张力与吸引力。事情的结果可能会遇到挫折，但同样可能好到远远超出最初的想象；拒绝不确定性，就等于主动放弃了上场参赛的资格，只能平庸地坐在场边观望。 --- ### [01:32:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5528s) 资源匮乏催生极致创造力：从预算枯竭到颠覆性创新 谈到《稀缺大脑》的第 9 章，史蒂文深有共鸣。他提到自己在营销领域多年来常开的一个玩笑：如果你希望营销总监（CMO）和团队成员做出职业生涯中最具开创性、最具颠覆性的工作，最有效的办法其实是“扣住他们的预算”。史蒂文分享了自己早年创立第一家公司 Wallpark 时的真实创业困境。当时团队捉襟见肘，营销预算只剩下区区 6,000 英镑左右。当他和两位联合创始人阿什（Ash）与多姆（Dom）面面相觑、账面资金彻底耗尽时，他们被迫放弃了所有昂贵的传统套路，从第一性原理（First Principles）出发去思考生存策略。正是这种被逼到绝境的匮乏，激发出了一个后来价值数亿美元的商业灵感。 迈克尔援引了伊利诺伊大学（University of Illinois）与约翰斯·霍普金斯大学（Johns Hopkins University）的相关学术研究证实，当资源极度充裕时，人类的思维惰性会驱使我们直接模仿同行，用最容易、最随大流的方式去堆砌资源；只有当外部资源被剥夺至临界点时，人们才会被迫跳出常规惯性，依靠第一性原理去发明前所未有的解法。 面对史蒂文抛出的尖锐问题——“这是否意味着生活在丰裕之中的现代人本质上是懒惰的？”，迈克尔虽然不太愿意轻易给人类贴上“懒惰（lazy）”这一带有贬义的标签，但在史蒂文的一再追问下，迈克尔笑着松口表示，如果一定要这么说，在某种层面上他完全同意这个观点：充裕确实容易让人丧失开拓的锋芒，而稀缺与限制才是点燃创新的终极火种。 ### [01:34:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5644s) 资源匮乏如何激发真正的创新与“下风者”心态 人类在天性上倾向于选择最省力、最容易的途径。面对复杂难题时，跳出常规去构思具有颠覆性的点子极其耗费心力；如果手头资金充裕，人们通常会直接选择“砸钱解决”，而不是绞尽脑汁去突破。这一机制也解释了为什么许多大企业随着规模扩张，即便拥有庞大的智力资本和成群的高精尖人才，创新能力却往往出现断崖式下跌。除了大型机构固有的损失厌恶之外，它们在充沛的资源下习惯性地倒向传统、稳妥和显而易见的解决方案。 相反，处在初创或规模较小的阶段时，看似资源短缺，实际上拥有的可能性反而更多。由于别无退路，团队被逼在极其有限的预算中寻找别人忽视的视角，从而被动激发出独特的创造力。Michael Easter 提到了伊利诺伊大学（University of Illinois）与约翰斯·霍普金斯大学（Johns Hopkins University）联合进行的六项研究：面对稀缺资源的实验参与者不仅拿出了更具创新性的点子，而且在实际落地过程中消耗的资源也更少。 Steven Bartlett 对此深有共鸣，指出企业必须时刻保持“下风者心态”（Underdog mentality）。他在管理团队时常强调，组织面临的最大危险就是“觉得自己已经成功了”。一旦产生这种自满情绪，团队就会松开油门，依仗充裕的资源重复过去的惯性，彻底丧失探索新路径的动力。为了防范这种惰性，Easter 建议成熟企业可以设定思维训练，例如每月安排一天让团队推演：“如果预算砍到极低，我们该怎么做？”通过主动模拟匮乏，迫使团队打破思维定势，保持精简与敏捷。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 资源充裕与资源匮乏对创新的影响对比 accDescr: 对比资源充沛导致创新下降与资源稀缺逼出突破性创新的因果关系 subgraph Abundance["资源充沛状态"] A["充裕资本与庞大规模"] --> B["倾向砸钱解决问题"] B --> C["强化损失厌恶与守成"] C --> D["创新能力下降 / 陷入平庸"] end subgraph Scarcity["资源匮乏状态"] E["严格预算与资源受限"] --> F["被动打破常规框架"] F --> G["保持下风者心态与敏捷"] G --> H["用更少资源实现更高创新"] end ``` --- ### [01:36:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5787s) 全球悲伤潮的蔓延与重拾掌控的解药 在探讨现代生活对心理的影响时，Steven 提到 Michael Easter 在《Scarcity Brain》（匮乏大脑）第11章中写下的令人触目惊心的一句话：我们正经历着一场“全球悲伤的上升浪潮”（A rising tide of global sadness）。各项客观研究都在印证这一趋势：在过去几十年中，美国及诸多发达国家民众的幸福感持续滑坡，全球不幸福感指数更是在2021年创下历史新高。一项针对流行歌曲歌词的研究极为具象地反映了这种情绪转变——从1965年到2015年间，流行歌词中“爱”（Love）等积极温暖词汇的出现频率直接缩减了一半，而像“恨”（Hate）这类负面词汇的使用频率却大幅飙升。 面对祖先遗留下来、在现代富足环境中频繁失控的“匮乏大脑”，个体究竟该如何夺回生活的主导权？Easter 指出，现代社会充斥着成千上万条“教你如何快乐”的轻巧秘诀，但心理学与人类经验表明，真正持久的幸福感往往来自于完成那些“并不轻松容易的事情”。比如忍受独处的不适去深度审视自我，或是主动走出舒适区去挑战未知的困难： > “拥抱那种并不轻松的历程，在我看来正是人类故事的核心。随着世界变得越来越容易、越来越舒适、越来越安全，我们本能地倾向于缩在舒适区里，但这未必对我们有益……如果生活每时每刻都无比轻松，人们反而会逐渐发疯并陷入不幸。” 要成为在现代社会中保持清醒与活力的“2%的人”，关键在于建立敢于“走向不适”的行动哲学——无论是字面意义上的放弃电梯去爬楼梯，还是在感到孤独时逼自己克服社交尴尬，加入一个垒球队或板球俱乐部结识新人。正如一位僧侣所写的名言，人需要有勇气“纵身跃入深渊”（Throw yourself into the abyss），在直面困难中体验完整、饱满的人类经历。 - **流行歌词词频变迁**：1965 年至 2015 年间，热门歌曲中“Love”等正面词汇的使用比例缩减了 50%，负面攻击性词汇显著上升。 - **全球心理指标**：调查数据显示，全球不幸福感在 2021 年攀升至历史峰值。 - **幸福的真实机制**：持久的心理满足并非建立在即时舒适与逃避挑战之上，而是依赖于克服困难与迎接不适后的成就感。 --- ### [01:39:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5974s) 商业算法操控、道德困境与自我意识的觉醒 面对拉斯维加斯便利店和加油站里随处可见的轮盘赌博机，以及通过精密算法死死锁住用户注意力的社交媒体平台，Steven 提出质疑：这些商业机构是否在道德上已经走向了堕落与邪恶？Easter 给出了更为复杂且务实的视角。他指出，许多被商业机构放大的行为在短期内确实给人们带来了快乐与即时奖励；Tik Tok 推荐的精彩视频本身就是高度契合人性的娱乐产品。如果强制要求企业降低吸引力，就等于要求它们“制造枯燥乏味、无人问津的内容”，这在商业和社会层面并不现实： > “老虎机应该做得没那么好玩吗？看 YouTube 应该变得更无聊吗？Netflix 应该故意把自己设计得很枯燥吗？我的核心观点并不是让大家永远不去碰这些东西，而是我们必须意识到：我们往往是在完全没有意识到的情况下陷入了这些行为。” 现实的残酷之处在于，企业深知绝大多数消费者的上瘾行为是无意识的。然而，单纯依赖行政监管无法真正解决问题，过度管制只会把公众当成没有自理能力的儿童对待。Steven 也补充道，在残酷的市场竞争中，任何一家单方面选择“不迎合人类匮乏大脑弱点”的道德赌场或社交软件，都会因缺乏用户黏性而迅速破产淘汰；若仅在一国境内禁止，相关产业和技术红利也只会迅速流向海外。 因此，真正的解药在于个体的“意识觉醒”（Awareness）与自主选择权。只要是深思熟虑后的决定，哪怕一天花上15个小时刷短视频也是个人的自由；但关键必须是由清晰的理性主导，而非被无意识的生理机制暗中绑架。正是基于这一底层洞察，Easter 的前作《The Comfort Crisis》（舒适危机）在出版近三年后，销量不降反升、每周稳步攀升，凭借口碑效应让无数读者打破安逸的麻木；而他的新书《Scarcity Brain》（匮乏大脑）更进一步拆解了人类渴望机制的运作原理，引导人们从向外盲目索取，转向在内心重建自律与真正的充实。 ### [01:43:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=6194s) 上一位嘉宾的提问：什么能让你感到最幸福？ 按照《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）的经典传统，每一位到访的嘉宾都会在不知道下一位来客是谁的前提下，在日记本中留下一个提问。Steven Bartlett 翻开本子，念出了留给 Michael Easter 的问题：“什么能让你感到最幸福（What makes you happiest）？” Michael 思考片刻后给出了一个极为真挚、质朴的画面：清晨五点，他坐在自己的书房里，爱犬静静地趴在身旁安睡。最初的写作过程往往如同“身处炼狱”（absolute hell），充斥着抓耳挠腮的痛苦与阻滞；然而突然之间，电光石火般灵光一现，某个绝妙的句子跃入脑海，所有散落的碎片在瞬间严丝合缝地拼接在一起。这种灵感进发的顿悟感让他完全沉浸于当下，文字如同流水般倾泻而出。除此之外，另一半纯粹的幸福感来自于结束晨间写作后，能够起身去陪伴自己的妻子——他心目中“最爱的那个人”与灵魂伴侣。对他而言，终极的幸福就是这样纯粹而简单。 ### [01:44:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=6257s) 拥抱不适以找回控制权与真挚道别 Steven 对 Michael 的分享致以由衷的感谢，坦言这场对话让自己深受启发、变得更加聪明，未来也必将在无数场合引用 Michael 的研究成果。Steven 强调，这正是当代世界最迫切需要听到的声音：当今社会各项指标都在警示我们，如果存在一个时刻必须彻底认清大脑运作机制、明白它是如何被现代环境与商业产品所操控并夺回自主权，同时重拾“主动拥抱不适”的重要性，那就是当下。因为未来的科技与物质环境只会变得更加舒适、更加唾手可得，若不保持清醒，人类将彻底迷失。Michael 对此深表赞同，并感谢 Steven 能够全力推荐自己的著作，让这些理念传递给全球更多读者。 - **时代警钟**：现代科技与便利设施只会让生活越来越舒适，人类唯有主动正视稀缺大脑（Scarcity Brain）的漏洞、重新审视不适的价值，才能免于沉沦。 - **嘉宾新作**：节目中深入探讨的相关核心理念收录于 Michael Easter 的著作《Scarcity Brain》与《The Comfort Crisis》之中。 ### [01:45:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=6306s) 节目赞助与尾声推荐 在节目的最后，Steven Bartlett 介绍了本期播客的新合作伙伴——全球商业平台 Shopify。Steven 提到，团队在发行包括对话卡牌（Conversation Cards）在内的多款周边产品时，底层电商支持完全依赖 Shopify。无论对初创企业还是成熟品牌，该平台都极大降低了全球线上商业的门槛。同时，Steven 建议喜欢本期内容的观众点击下方简介中的推荐链接，继续收听往期同样精彩的深度对谈（如与 Peter Attia 博士探讨健康与长寿的节目）。 ## Notable quotes > [02:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=134s) embrace short-term discomfort to get a long-term benefit — Michael Easter > [32:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=1930s) It's not your fault, but it is your problem — Michael Easter > [50:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3017s) felt fine — Steven Bartlett > [01:02:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=3762s) inactivity is poison — Michael Easter > [01:16:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4581s) 想象一下，如果一个孩子刚出生，我们就在他的两只手上戴上厚达一厘米的手套，那双小手长大后会有多孱弱无力！而这恰恰就是我们对双脚所做的事情。 — Steven Bartlett > [01:20:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=4816s) 如果你每天坚持做 10 次这种选择，并将它放大延展到漫长的一生中，我向你保证，你的健康水平一定会远超那些总是选择舒适捷径的人。 — Michael Easter > [01:24:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5096s) I can't let the demons in — Chris Eubank Jr. > [01:29:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5361s) You risk so much hesitating to fling yourself into the abyss — Michael Easter > [01:36:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5787s) A rising tide of global sadness — Michael Easter > [01:36:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5787s) 拥抱那种并不轻松的历程，在我看来正是人类故事的核心。随着世界变得越来越容易、越来越舒适、越来越安全，我们本能地倾向于缩在舒适区里，但这未必对我们有益……如果生活每时每刻都无比轻松，人们反而会逐渐发疯并陷入不幸。 — Michael Easter > [01:39:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=5974s) 老虎机应该做得没那么好玩吗？看 YouTube 应该变得更无聊吗？Netflix 应该故意把自己设计得很枯燥吗？我的核心观点并不是让大家永远不去碰这些东西，而是我们必须意识到：我们往往是在完全没有意识到的情况下陷入了这些行为。 — Michael Easter > [01:43:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0&t=6194s) What makes you happiest — Steven Bartlett ## Mentioned Michael Easter, Steven Bartlett, Peter Attia, The Diary Of A CEO, Scarcity Brain, The Comfort Crisis, The 33 Laws Of Business & Life, Robin Dunbar, Dunbar's number, DSM-5, University of Kentucky, Instagram, Twitter / X, Robinhood, National Institutes of Health (NIH), David Levari, Daniel Lieberman, David Raichlen, University of Southern California (USC), Whoop, Huel, Shopify, Chris Eubank Jr., Joseph Campbell, Hero's Journey, Uber, Uber Labs, University of Illinois, Johns Hopkins University, Wallpark, TikTok, Netflix, YouTube ## Video description If you enjoyed this video, I recommend you check out my conversation with Dr Peter Attia, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eqPnptAtBJk 00:00 Intro 02:08 What's your mission? 05:58 Mind-Blowing Findings from Studying Hunter-Gatherers & Native Tribes 10:51 Challenges of Living in Dense Urban Environments & Big Offices 14:54 Impact of Noise on Productivity and Health 17:03 AI & Loneliness 20:14 The Self-Destructive Power of Alcohol 25:11 The Fascinating Science Behind Addiction 33:18 How Companies Foster Addiction to Their Products 37:41 The Constant Quest for Status 41:39 The Snacking Dilemma: Why We Can't Stop 48:23 Exploring Fasting and Scheduled Hunger Days 50:17 The Psychological Perspective and Its Limits on Our Potential 01:02:42 The Role of Exercise in Our Lives 01:05:48 Comparing Hunter-Gatherer Bodies to Modern Humans 01:16:23 The Prevalence of Back Pain: Why 80% of Us Suffer 01:19:59 How Embracing Discomfort Can Prevent Long-Term Pain 01:24:34 Overcoming Limiting Beliefs to Achieve Your Goals 01:32:08 How The Lack of Resources Spark Creativity 01:36:27 Eye-Opening Stats on the World's Current Trajectory 01:39:34 Are Companies Exploiting Human Addictive Behaviours? 01:43:32 The Last Guest's Question You can purchase Michael’s most recent book, ‘Scarcity Brain: Fix Your Craving Mindset and Rewire Your Habits to Thrive with Enough’, here: https://amzn.to/3MG5hef Follow Michael: Instagram: https://bit.ly/3QGzEnd Twitter: https://bit.ly/40lW7JB My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now: https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-diary-of-a-ceo-by-steven-bartlett/id1291423644 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGq-a57w-aPwyi3pW7XLiHw/join FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://x.com/StevenBartlett?s=20 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Sponsor: Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb Shopify: https://shopify.com/bartlett Whoop: https://join.whoop.com/CEO [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jnYrxVXQKS0)

[2:14] Michael Easter: embrace short-term discomfort to get a long-term benefit [32:10] Michael Easter: It's not your fault, but it is your problem [50:17] Steven Bartlett: felt fine [62:42] Michael Easter: inactivity is poison [76:21] Steven Bartlett: 想象一下，如果一个孩子刚出生，我们就在他的两只手上戴上厚达一厘米的手套，那双小手长大后会有多孱弱无力！而这恰恰就是我们对双脚所做的事情。 [80:16] Michael Easter: 如果你每天坚持做 10 次这种选择，并将它放大延展到漫长的一生中，我向你保证，你的健康水平一定会远超那些总是选择舒适捷径的人。 [84:56] Chris Eubank Jr.: I can't let the demons in [89:21] Michael Easter: You risk so much hesitating to fling yourself into the abyss [96:27] Michael Easter: A rising tide of global sadness [96:27] Michael Easter: 拥抱那种并不轻松的历程，在我看来正是人类故事的核心。随着世界变得越来越容易、越来越舒适、越来越安全，我们本能地倾向于缩在舒适区里，但这未必对我们有益……如果生活每时每刻都无比轻松，人们反而会逐渐发疯并陷入不幸。 [99:34] Michael Easter: 老虎机应该做得没那么好玩吗？看 YouTube 应该变得更无聊吗？Netflix 应该故意把自己设计得很枯燥吗？我的核心观点并不是让大家永远不去碰这些东西，而是我们必须意识到：我们往往是在完全没有意识到的情况下陷入了这些行为。 [103:14] Steven Bartlett: What makes you happiest

[54:03] Michael Easter: When that hot water hit my hands, it was incredible... You hit this little red tab and you get hot running water that hits your hands at 35,000 feet, and you're moving 600 miles an hour through a tube of steel. [72:38] Michael Easter: If running on a treadmill is like addition, running outside in the context that we would have run outside is like multivariate calculus. [86:56] You risk so much hesitating to fling yourself into the abyss. [96:08] Steven Bartlett: Our biggest risk now is like thinking you've made it [99:34] Michael Easter: Ultimately, that is where Freedom lies

[0:00] 2,000 heart disease deaths a year in [0:01] Europe were due [0:03] to the noise that people live in Jesus [0:06] the world we live in now that is not how [0:08] humans are designed to live Michael [0:10] Easter bestselling author journalist [0:13] professor of Psychiatry he's on a [0:15] mission to save us from the comfort [0:16] crisis Crisis crisis is it really a [0:19] crisis as a species we evolve to do the [0:21] easiest most comfortable thing but we [0:23] eventually end up paying a price for it [0:25] people are burned out stressed out more [0:27] mental health problems and we're looking [0:28] for the next pleasure and the industry [0:30] really leans into this addiction for [0:32] example slot machines once they got rid [0:34] of handles and just put a spin button [0:35] people went from playing 400 games in an [0:37] hour to an average of 900 if you break [0:39] that down by minute that's more than we [0:41] blink and then we engineered movement [0:43] out of our lives with our new job [0:44] sitting in these chairs 8 hours a day [0:46] now 2% of people take the stairs when [0:48] there is also an escalator available and [0:50] now we have heart disease the number one [0:52] killer of humans globally this drive [0:54] that we have to do the most comfortable [0:56] thing is a problem as people experience [0:59] fewer and fewer Vier problems we don't [1:01] become more satisfied we simply start [1:03] searching for the next problem really [1:05] yes we become unhappier usage of the [1:07] word love Haled between 1965 and 2015 [1:11] and negative words like hate increased [1:12] we need to realize that it's your [1:14] ancient brain working against you it's [1:16] not your fault but it is your problem I [1:18] want to take back control how do we [1:19] break out of this I call this concept [1:21] being a twcenter and if you apply this I [1:24] guarantee you will end up healthier and [1:26] learn what you're capable of the first [1:28] step is [1:31] quick one this is really really [1:32] fascinating to me on the back end of our [1:34] YouTube channel it says that [1:37] 69.9% of you that watch this channel [1:39] frequently over the lifetime of this [1:41] channel haven't yet hit the Subscribe [1:42] button I just wanted to ask you a favor [1:44] it helps this channel so much if you [1:46] choose to just subscribe helps us scale [1:48] the guest helps us scale the production [1:50] and it makes the show bigger so if I [1:52] could ask you for one favor if you've [1:53] watched this show before and you've [1:55] enjoyed it and you like this episode [1:56] that you're currently watching could you [1:57] please hit the Subscribe button thank [1:59] you so so much and I will repay that [2:01] gesture by making sure that everything [2:03] we do here gets better and better and [2:05] better and better that is a promise I'm [2:06] willing to make you do we have a [2:08] [Music] [2:14] deal Michael there's a quite obvious [2:17] through line throughout your work so I [2:19] wanted to ask you if you had to sort of [2:22] encapsulate and summarize the mission [2:25] that you're on with the work that you do [2:27] the books that you write how would you [2:29] arize that mission I think that in the [2:33] context of today and the world we live [2:35] in now you often have to embrace [2:39] short-term discomfort to get a long-term [2:41] benefit so I think the world is set up [2:42] in a way now where things are [2:46] easy things are more effortless and [2:49] while that is good overall that's a [2:50] result of progress I think by not having [2:54] moments that press back against us and [2:56] this could be everything from taking the [2:58] stairs to um being willing to have hard [3:00] conversations in your life all those [3:02] sorts of things we lose something about [3:04] being a human and lose um the things [3:07] that keep us healthy and and happy I I [3:10] would argue I argue in the comfort [3:11] crisis that the things that most impact [3:13] your day-to-day life today how you live [3:16] everything from Cars uh climate control [3:20] to the food system to on and on and on [3:24] they're all relatively new in the grand [3:26] scheme of time and space they're all new [3:27] within the last 100 years I mean here's [3:29] a great example [3:32] uh digital media the average person [3:33] today takes in 12 to 13 hours of digital [3:36] media a day the radio was invented maybe [3:39] 100 years ago that is an insane shift in [3:41] how people spend their time and [3:43] attention every day and the Brain hasn't [3:47] got up no no so we you know a lot of my [3:51] work it looks at um looks takes an [3:54] anthropological lens really it looks at [3:57] how humans were shaped over time and how [3:59] we have these adaptations that used to [4:02] make sense in these environments where [4:04] um what we needed to survive was scarce [4:07] uh where the world was hard and [4:09] uncomfortable and life took effort and [4:12] those things kept us alive right uh but [4:14] when you put us in a world where we've [4:16] engineered the world to be kind of a lot [4:17] easier in a lot of ways where we have an [4:19] abundance of all these things that we're [4:21] sort of built to Crave everything from [4:22] food to stuff to information to even [4:25] status and influence we now have an [4:27] abundance of all those things and these [4:29] sort of ancient drives we have this [4:31] ancient Hardware it can backfire in [4:34] these new environments so that's called [4:36] an evolutionary mismatch what is the the [4:39] modern symptoms of that evolutionary [4:41] mismatch chronic diseases so for example [4:44] you know people didn't really get heart [4:46] disease until we started engineering uh [4:49] movement out of our lives with our new [4:51] jobs and um started eating more because [4:53] we had a massive supply of food thanks [4:55] to advances in agriculture um I think [4:58] there's mental health issues too people [5:00] are you know burned out um stressed out [5:03] our Collective lack of Fitness I think [5:05] too has led to a lot of health issues so [5:09] for example um in the past our ancestors [5:12] probably were about 14 times more [5:15] physically active than us 14 times it's [5:18] a crazy [5:20] number so when they do uh when [5:23] scientists do studies on Hunter gathers [5:25] today which are a way to get get to the [5:27] ideas of how humans used to live in the [5:29] past um groups will generally walk more [5:32] than 20,000 steps a day and that's just [5:34] an average day now today the average [5:36] American and I would assume probably the [5:38] average brid as well we're probably um [5:40] about in the same place walk anywhere [5:42] from you know 4,000 to 5,000 steps a day [5:46] that is just so little in the grand [5:47] scheme of time and space we had to be [5:49] active to to live and survive and um [5:52] this drive that we have to do the next [5:54] easiest most comfortable thing it often [5:56] backfires today I imagine in preparation [6:00] for your books you spend significant [6:02] amount of time studying hunter gatherer [6:04] communities and native tribes and things [6:07] like that I'm so fascinated by that so [6:10] fascinated because I think most of the [6:11] answers we're in search of in our modern [6:14] lives exist behind us instead of in [6:16] front of us if that makes sense what [6:18] have you learned about the differences [6:19] in how they lived versus how we live now [6:23] you talk there about movement and [6:25] activity is there any other sort of [6:27] really Central differences that [6:29] pertinent to health outcomes yeah I mean [6:32] well food is one of them right so as [6:35] part of this new book scarcity [6:38] brain when you uh when you look at the [6:41] diseases that kill humans modern humans [6:43] it's heart disease now the crazy thing [6:46] about heart disease is that people also [6:48] don't worry about it so when you look at [6:50] what people worry is going to kill them [6:52] it's uh cancer it's Terror attacks it's [6:56] you know the crazy Neighbor Next Door [6:57] with the gun it's all these whatever [6:59] things and heart disease is way down the [7:00] list but what actually kills people is [7:03] heart disease full stop like that is the [7:05] number one killer of humans globally [7:07] especially if you live in a developed [7:08] country so I have that in the back of my [7:10] mind and I come across this paper this [7:13] study and it found a tribe in Bolivia [7:16] with the healthiest Hearts ever recorded [7:17] by [7:18] science the reason they don't seem to [7:21] get uh heart disease as well as a lot of [7:23] other chronic diseases that we get and [7:25] that kill us for example they don't seem [7:27] to get Alzheimer's um tracks what they [7:29] eat and what they eat at some point in [7:33] the day which is fascinating is that it [7:35] is going to give the middle finger to [7:38] every single fat diet you've heard of [7:40] over the last 40 years so it's not [7:42] necessarily low fat it's not low carb [7:45] it's not vegan it's not paleo it's not [7:48] ex all these different diets you've [7:49] heard of right but the one commonality [7:52] that all their food has is that it has [7:53] just one ingredient so they're eating [7:56] things like foods like rice they're [7:58] eating potatoes they're eating red meat [8:00] from um Amazonian deer they're eating a [8:03] lot of fish they're eating nuts they're [8:04] eating fruits they're eating they even [8:06] eat sugar right like how many diets do [8:09] we have where they're like if you eat a [8:10] gram of sugar your kidneys are going to [8:12] explode and you're going to die on the [8:14] spot right of them and so for me the [8:17] takeaway was that um when you look at [8:19] what the average person in a developed [8:22] uh country eats it's a lot of very Ultra [8:24] processed foods so ultr processed foods [8:27] are basically that's a euphemism for [8:29] junk food it's what scientists use to [8:30] describe junk food you know and it's [8:33] stuff packed with all sorts of uh [8:35] ingredients and triggers that lead us to [8:39] overeat more or less so when you take a [8:43] food through a ton of processing right [8:45] like a Dorito you guys have those in the [8:47] UK yeah we have Doritos oh thank [8:49] God you concentrate the calories so one [8:52] the food [8:53] tastes way better than anything you'd [8:55] find in the jungle like when I was [8:57] living with these people I'm not going [8:58] to lie the food was not that delicious [9:01] it really wasn't so you you make the [9:03] food taste a lot better and you also [9:04] concentrate the calories the food [9:06] becomes a lot easier to eat you can eat [9:08] more faster so there's these interesting [9:10] experiments at the NIH where they will [9:13] lock people in a lab and they will give [9:16] them a [9:19] unprocessed diet and then for the next [9:21] period of time they will give them an [9:23] ultr processed diet a sort of junk food [9:25] diet now everything about these diets is [9:26] matched like the calories the the carbs [9:30] the protein the fat and they say you [9:32] know eat as much as you want till you're [9:33] full full and when people eat the foods [9:36] that have you know fewer ingredients the [9:38] unprocessed Foods they end up eating 500 [9:41] fewer calories a day and they end up [9:43] losing weight so that's just one example [9:46] of how things have changed so in [9:48] scarcity brain in particular you know [9:50] I'm looking at [9:52] how everything we needed to survive in [9:54] the past was scarce and hard to find and [9:56] so it made sense to when you got the [9:59] opportunity to overdo those things [10:01] whether it be food whether it be GA [10:03] gathering possessions right tools [10:05] whether it be trying to gain status over [10:07] other people trying to gain influence [10:09] whether it was information and now we [10:11] have an abundance of all of those things [10:13] right we've got grocery stores packed [10:15] with thousands and thousands of foods on [10:18] all sorts of Corners uh information [10:20] think about the internet the average [10:21] person in one day today sees more [10:24] information than a person uh 700 years [10:27] ago would have seen them their entire [10:29] life Jesus entire life think of status [10:33] and influence right it used to be that [10:35] we would be in these uh tribes of people [10:37] that would have maybe 150 people Max and [10:40] it was very clear what your sort of rank [10:42] was right because we got a leader we got [10:43] some whatever but now you can blast out [10:46] stuff about yourself to millions of [10:48] people one time you talk in your work [10:52] about I think that was in the first book [10:53] The Comfort crisis about how kind of [10:56] sort of adjacent to that being in large [10:58] groups is has adverse consequences for [11:01] our health and happiness this number 150 [11:04] people MH in an office space really made [11:07] me consider a couple of decisions I've [11:09] made what is the what is the basis for [11:12] that and what is the the key takeaway so [11:15] the number is called dunbar's number and [11:17] it's by this researcher uh Robin Dunbar [11:20] I hope I got his first name right the [11:21] theory is that groups of people um as we [11:25] evolved we probably didn't get over 150 [11:27] people now because of this today when we [11:31] have groups of more than 150 people [11:33] things get complicated right because [11:36] once a group of people gets over 150 you [11:38] got to remember a lot more [11:39] interconnected relationships you got to [11:41] remember a lot more names you got to [11:42] remember a lot more faces you got to [11:44] remember all these things and oh by the [11:45] way now that we have this big group of [11:46] people we need to establish laws we need [11:49] to establish all these different things [11:51] so it gets rather complex and the [11:54] takeaway is that this seems to be a lot [11:57] of work and stress for for most people [12:01] and so living in environments where you [12:03] are sort of jam-packed in with fewer [12:05] people seems to make most people happier [12:08] most of the time so you can sort of [12:10] gauge happiness levels where people who [12:13] live in the most densely packed cities [12:15] tend to be on average uh most unhappy [12:18] compared to people who live out in rural [12:20] areas of course I'm not saying that [12:22] everyone that lives in a densely packed [12:23] city is unhappy of course I'm not I'm [12:25] just saying on average you compare those [12:26] two groups you're going to find that [12:28] people who live in uh countrysides and [12:30] they're less packed in with groups are [12:32] going to be [12:33] happier does noise matter noise of the [12:36] environment yeah was part of the Comfort [12:38] crisis The overarching Narrative of that [12:40] book is I spent uh [12:42] 33 days in the Arctic and um the thing [12:47] that I really didn't expect to happen so [12:49] in that book I tell the story of my time [12:51] in the Arctic and as I experience these [12:54] different forms of discomfort that [12:56] humans would have experienced in the [12:57] past I sort of peel off and explain the [12:59] science behind them and other travels I [13:01] did about them so in the Arctic it was [13:06] unbelievably silent there's no one [13:08] around for hundreds of miles I mean one [13:11] day we're you know you're standing there [13:13] and um I hear [13:18] this and I'm [13:21] going the hell was that turns out it was [13:25] my wristatch it is so silent up there [13:28] that you're just standing and you just [13:29] pick up the of the second hand which [13:32] normally you would have to hold up right [13:36] um and so I got curious about [13:39] that and what was funny is that humans [13:42] have increased the loudness of the world [13:45] about fourfold so 100% yep fourfold [13:49] since um before we you know became this [13:52] species that overtook uh the planet is [13:55] the estimate and people tend to get [13:58] stressed out when when they're in lots [14:00] of noise all the time so if you think [14:02] about noise in the past um if you heard [14:04] a loud noise it was probably [14:06] danger it's a storm rolling in it's an [14:10] animal that thinks you would be a [14:11] delicious dinner and is letting out a [14:13] roar right so we tend to become stressed [14:18] when um we hear loud noises now in the [14:21] past those were likely infrequent and [14:23] today we kind of live in this lowgrade [14:26] loudness that seems to um be associated [14:30] with [14:31] stress and even disease which is [14:34] interesting yeah there's a uh there was [14:35] this interesting wo study where they [14:38] estimated that 2,000 heart attack deaths [14:41] a year or heart disease deaths a year in [14:43] Europe were due to how loud the the [14:46] noise that people live in and that's [14:47] simply because um loudness increases [14:50] stress and stress is a key factor for [14:52] heart [14:53] disease it makes me think about the way [14:55] we've kind of designed our professional [14:56] and personal environments you know like [14:58] open plan offices and I mean all my [15:00] offices around the world have always [15:01] been open plan in your first but Comfort [15:03] crisis I think it's chapter 13 where you [15:05] start to talk about how that is both bad [15:07] for people's anxiety depression and [15:10] productivity yeah well and it's funny [15:12] because um what I found fascinating [15:15] about the studies on that is most people [15:17] don't realize that being in a lot of [15:19] noise impacts their productivity um but [15:22] when you look at what they actually [15:23] produce people tend to produce more [15:25] better work when they're in more silent [15:27] environments [15:29] there was one study where one group [15:30] worked in a quiet office and one worked [15:32] in an open plan office the open plan [15:34] office was 50% louder the workers in the [15:36] open plan office so they didn't feel any [15:38] more stress but stress monitors found [15:40] that they were in fact more stressed and [15:41] less productive yeah chapter 13 of your [15:44] book I'm sorry that I just I was like my [15:47] team are going to hear this we've just [15:49] had we've just approved the designs for [15:51] for our new HQ in the middle of London [15:53] well let's uh you know call off the [15:55] build yeah Jesus take a look at the [15:57] blueprints after this and that's what [15:59] staggering anti- anxiety medication use [16:01] Rises a relative 28% for every 10 deel [16:04] increase in sound in neighborhood in [16:07] neighborhood experiences and people who [16:08] live nearer to loud roads are 24% more [16:11] likely to be depressed yeah it's uh it's [16:14] definitely surprising right because we [16:15] do live in a lot of noise and another [16:17] thing that was interesting while I was [16:18] reporting that section on um noise and [16:21] sound and how that's changed is that [16:23] most people today say that they feel at [16:26] first uncomfortable in silence totally [16:29] me yeah I think everyone's like that I [16:31] can't even sleep without something [16:32] playing right so this is a this was a [16:36] study in Australia and it was rather [16:37] informal but [16:39] um yeah people uh would you know take [16:42] some time to just be in complete silence [16:43] and they all wrote you know At first I [16:45] felt really uncomfortable through that [16:47] but um on the other side of that they [16:49] started to feel better and I think that [16:51] that's kind of um a framework for a lot [16:53] of things in life it's uncomfortable at [16:55] first but when you go through that you [16:58] come out of on the other side of it and [17:00] you feel like you've improved and you [17:01] probably have improved being alone and [17:04] being lonely you s as being two very [17:06] different things loneliness seems to [17:09] be awful for our healths and we're [17:11] getting increasingly more lonely decade [17:14] by decade but being alone is what's the [17:16] distinction between the two how do you [17:18] define the difference yeah so lonely to [17:20] me is I want to be with others but I [17:23] don't have anyone to be with right I [17:25] just don't have that resource in other [17:27] people being alone is different it's [17:29] choosing to take time to be with [17:31] yourself and see what you can learn from [17:34] that and I think too that there's real [17:36] there is some interesting research um on [17:38] people who just prefer to be alone they [17:40] just like Solitude and turns out that [17:44] they're just as happy as super social [17:46] people there's a little bit of [17:47] individual variation now of course these [17:49] people will have you know some people in [17:51] their life that they can count on I [17:52] think that that is absolutely important [17:54] but I do think we've shifted in the last [17:57] say 15 20 years where the message is [18:02] really you need a bunch of friends to be [18:04] happy you absolutely need to be as [18:07] social as possible and while I'm not [18:10] saying that don't be social that is not [18:12] my message at all I am saying that it's [18:14] also worth um taking time to be alone [18:17] sometimes and seeing what you can learn [18:18] from that because I think it does help [18:20] you better appreciate those social [18:22] moments like for me I never appreciate [18:25] my friends more when I've gone off on [18:28] some reporting trip into a strange Place [18:30] completely alone for a month or whatever [18:33] it might be and then come back and I'm [18:34] like oh man I really appreciate being [18:36] around these people and I don't take [18:37] that time for [18:38] granted being lonely increases your [18:40] chance of dying in the next seven years [18:42] by 26% being lonely can shorten your [18:44] life by 15 years staggering stats when [18:47] you think about the trajectory of travel [18:49] that Society is on with machines and [18:51] artificial intelligence and all of these [18:53] things um it's hard to find it's [18:56] understandable how it might be hard for [18:57] someone to find mind hope that the stats [19:01] are going to turn around and go the [19:02] other way as it relates to loneliness [19:04] are you concerned at all that the [19:06] invention of AI and the speed in which [19:09] we're seeing it proliferate is going to [19:11] lead to you know some people say sex [19:12] robots [19:13] and and all of these kinds of things I [19:16] mean I read an article the other day [19:17] where um a woman is a virtual boyfriend [19:21] to hundreds of men and they're paying [19:24] because they're using generative AI to [19:25] have like seemingly intimate [19:27] conversations with her [19:29] and the fact that there's demand for [19:30] that is a signal of not great things [19:33] yeah I think we need I think we [19:36] need I mean so then you ask like okay [19:39] well why are why are these people doing [19:40] that um I think part of it is because [19:43] having to go out and interact with [19:44] another human is that you don't know is [19:47] a little bit awkward and challenging at [19:48] first and so to me I mean a big message [19:51] of my work is that you have to do [19:53] challenging things in order to grow as a [19:55] human cuz I guarantee that your [19:57] relationship with an actual person is [19:59] going to be more rewarding in the Long [20:01] Haul than the you know the AI bot or [20:04] whatever whatever they call them but it [20:06] is hard to go out in public and I think [20:08] that we live in a world where you can [20:10] you can go okay I'm going to avoid the [20:13] hard thing because I can get this thing [20:14] that's easier even though it's not going [20:16] to be as good for me in the Long [20:19] Haul why you I always think when people [20:23] commit themselves to writing books [20:25] because books are painful processes I [20:27] mean it's nice when it's out but it's [20:28] not necessarily enjoyable when you're [20:30] having to condense your thoughts and put [20:32] it pen to paper but there is correlation [20:35] and there is a through line between [20:36] these two subject matters so it makes me [20:37] beg the question why did you of all the [20:39] things you could have taken an interest [20:41] in or become curious about why did [20:44] Michael have a Natural Curiosity towards [20:46] this subject matter yeah that's a great [20:49] question um I think a lot of it for me [20:54] is how I grew up um I grew up with a an [20:59] only child of a single parent who had to [21:01] travel a lot when I was in my 20s I also [21:05] got sober that was not an easy thing [21:07] right I was choosing this short-term [21:09] relief of alcohol at the expense of [21:11] long-term growth and meaning what was [21:13] the cost of that oh I mean you're just [21:16] an internal mess you know so my I was I [21:19] wasn't an interesting case but I I [21:21] wasn't the case that most people would [21:23] think of in the sense that my life was [21:25] totally fine on paper I had a job a [21:28] magazine everyone knew you know I had a [21:30] house I had a car that sort of thing but [21:33] uh internally I was just a total mess [21:35] and it's kind of like the walls were [21:36] cing in and I tried to quit drinking a [21:39] lot of times and finally it just [21:42] occurred to me um like this isn't going [21:44] to be easy and if you don't do this [21:46] you're probably going to die early by [21:48] the way and um I realized I had to just [21:52] rip off the Band-Aid and do the hard [21:53] thing and once I went through that [21:56] process my life improved Mo across the [21:58] board when you said that internally you [22:01] were a [22:03] mess how do I gain color on what that [22:06] means in reality so that people that are [22:08] listening who might be internally a mess [22:11] will have a bridge to be able to relate [22:12] to what you're saying there oh well so [22:16] addiction is really um consistently [22:18] choosing a short-term reward at the [22:20] expense of long-term growth I knew that [22:22] my drinking was causing um problems in [22:24] my life across the board I mean like you [22:27] know I had less money it was eating into [22:28] my bank account it was kind of it was [22:30] messing with some of my [22:32] relationships um I would never feel good [22:35] the 3 days after I would go out on a [22:36] bendor right I would just be like a a [22:39] mess and um yet I couldn't stop I mean [22:42] that's the key right as you go I know [22:44] this is screwing me up I know it and [22:47] then I tell myself you know what maybe [22:49] it'll be different this time like I'm [22:51] just G to have one or two drinks this [22:53] time and then you have one or two and [22:54] you go well if one or two is this good [22:57] what would like 10 more be like right [22:59] and something shifts in your head um so [23:01] it's choosing that short-term um relief [23:04] at the expense of long-term growth and [23:05] that is a tough cycle I mean I write [23:07] about it in scarcity brain about um [23:11] addiction and how we think about it [23:12] because I think that another thing [23:14] that's interesting about today is that [23:16] um you know when people hear the word [23:18] Addiction they automatically think drugs [23:19] they automatically think alcohol but [23:22] really if addiction is choosing the [23:23] short-term reward at the expense of [23:25] long-term growth it really falls on this [23:27] big spect [23:28] there's plenty of things we all do every [23:30] day that that fall into that but it's [23:32] just how bad is it hurting you to what [23:35] extent um and even the you know the dsm5 [23:39] which is sort of like the Bible of [23:40] psychiatrists the one that they [23:42] use it basically puts Addiction on a [23:44] spectrum it's like a here's like 11 [23:46] questions about addiction and if you say [23:49] yes to you know four of them then you [23:50] got a mild case if you say yes to six of [23:53] them you got a medium case and if you [23:54] say yes to seven or more you got a [23:58] extreme case and like when you read that [24:00] you could plug in a bunch of different [24:02] behaviors that people do all the time [24:04] and go oh I guess I am kind of like [24:06] mildly addicted to insert whatever app [24:08] you spend way too much time on and um I [24:12] think that getting out of that is [24:14] ultimately hard and ultimately I I also [24:16] see addiction as kind of a symptom of [24:18] some underlying thing so for me I think [24:20] the reason that I drank is because I had [24:22] an office job that I found a little bit [24:25] boring um it was rather sanitary [24:28] rule-based and as I mentioned before I'm [24:30] a person who I do well on Extreme [24:32] experiences right and when I would drink [24:35] alcohol would allow me to be sort of [24:36] wild and free in this world that's [24:38] become increasingly sanitary [24:40] increasingly rule-based whatever but [24:42] that's like not a good way to find that [24:44] there's a lot more productive ways to [24:45] find that and I can find that now by [24:47] applying it to a job that allows me to [24:48] go into extreme and interesting places [24:52] right and so I think that you know the [24:53] message for the average person is that [24:56] um once you figure out why you have an [25:01] issue in the first place and if you can [25:03] figure out okay well how do I apply it [25:05] to something that enhances my life that [25:07] can that can be a good life [25:10] hack I want to zoom in on a particular [25:12] moment there which we can all relate to [25:15] it's the moment you described where you [25:18] have an internal conversation about [25:19] having those first two drinks now we can [25:22] all relate to that in our own ways I [25:23] have internal conversations with myself [25:24] once in a while about having the carrot [25:26] cake and in my head [25:28] like it logically I know that this is [25:29] not a good long-term decision right it [25:33] could be you know binging on a website [25:35] or whatever when you know you've got [25:36] other important responsibilities and [25:37] priorities in your life that moment [25:39] where you have that internal [25:40] conversation with yourself it appears to [25:43] be the opportunity you have of making a [25:45] better longterm decision how on Earth [25:47] everyone listening to this will want to [25:49] make better long-term decisions how do [25:52] we win that battle which is seemingly [25:53] with [25:54] ourselves it yeah it is in a way with [25:57] our cells but it's also I think in a way [26:00] with this sort of ancient Hardware that [26:01] we have so in the I'll I'll answer this [26:04] this way and it might provide some [26:05] insight and um we can kind of go from [26:08] there so in this book um scarcity [26:11] brain there's this underlying question I [26:14] have that is you know everyone knows [26:17] that everything's fine in [26:19] moderation and yet we all suck at [26:20] moderation in some way or another in our [26:22] life right we all have a thing that [26:23] we're not great at moderating let's say [26:26] so I live in Las Vegas and I have this [26:28] underlying question and Las Vegas is a [26:30] fascinating town and um so I want to [26:32] know why slot machines work why are they [26:34] so good at grabbing [26:35] attention now long story short as this [26:38] leads me to uh this place on the edge of [26:41] town in Las Vegas and it's a brand new [26:46] fully working cuttingedge casino but [26:49] it's used entirely for research on human [26:51] behavior so it's a collaboration with [26:55] the gambling industry and a bunch of [26:57] different Tech companies so you go into [26:59] this place and I went in there and it is [27:01] just a it's a real Casino there's hotel [27:03] rooms there's like restaurants there's a [27:04] coffee bar there's all these different [27:06] things that the casino would have like [27:07] the slot machines like the poker tables [27:09] like the sports book like insert [27:11] whatever and while I'm there I end up [27:13] talking to a researcher who um designs [27:15] slot machines and slot machines work on [27:20] what I call the scarcity Loop it is a [27:23] three-part Behavior Loop and its three [27:25] parts are one opportunity two [27:28] unpredictable rewards and three quick [27:30] repeatability so one [27:33] opportunity you have an opportunity to [27:35] get something of value that's going to [27:37] enhance your life in the case of a slot [27:38] machine it's money right two [27:40] unpredictable rewards you know you'll [27:43] get that thing of value at some point [27:45] but you don't know when and you don't [27:47] know how valuable it's going to be so [27:48] with slot machines it's like you play [27:50] you could lose your money you could win [27:52] a couple dollars you could win hundreds [27:55] of thousands of dollars it's crazy and [27:58] then three quick repeatability you can [27:59] immediately repeat the Behavior now the [28:02] important part is that and why I'm [28:04] talking about this is because that [28:07] three-part Behavior Loop it is uh the [28:10] most powerful Behavior loop at getting [28:12] people to repeat behaviors and get [28:13] sucked in it's like the serial killer of [28:16] moderation okay and it's now in all [28:20] sorts of other Tech and institutions so [28:23] for example it's what makes social media [28:25] work it's what makes dating apps so [28:27] compelling it's being put in um [28:29] financial apps like Robin Hood um it's [28:32] being leveraged by different um gig work [28:36] companies right it explains the rise of [28:38] sports betting it's embedded in a lot of [28:40] these behaviors that we can't seem to [28:42] moderate so when I look at the things [28:44] that people aren't good at moderating [28:46] whether it's you know I check email way [28:48] too much or I check my stocks way too [28:52] much and this drives me nuts um it [28:55] usually fall it's usually behavior that [28:56] falls into those into that scarcity Loop [28:59] and so the book unpacks you know what it [29:01] is uh where it came from why we get [29:04] hooked on it in the first place and I [29:05] can explain that please and then where [29:07] it um pops up in Modern Life you want to [29:09] know where it came from yeah yeah yeah [29:10] okay so I had the same question so I [29:13] talked to the slot guy and now I'm like [29:16] okay I get that gambling and slot [29:17] machines are so [29:19] compelling I get that this thing is in a [29:21] lot of different places but why why in [29:23] the first place he just looks at me goes [29:24] I don't know like he just makes money [29:26] off it he doesn't care [29:27] so I end up calling a guy who's a [29:30] psychologist at the University of [29:32] Kentucky and this guy is an old school [29:33] behavioral psychologist like he got his [29:36] PhD in 1968 he's been doing research uh [29:39] ever since and he explained that it [29:43] likely evolv to help us find food in the [29:46] past so if you think of humans in the [29:49] past you basically had to find food [29:51] every day or else you're going to die [29:54] but you don't know where the food is and [29:56] you don't know how much you're going to [29:57] find so you go to point a no food point [30:01] B no food Point C ding ding ding jackpot [30:07] you find this massive elk that you end [30:10] up killing and it feeds you for weeks [30:13] right so that is the exact same [30:14] architecture as a slot machine you play [30:16] the game you don't get anything you play [30:18] the game you don't get anything you play [30:19] the game oh it's right there amazing and [30:22] you couldn't predict any of that right [30:23] and you've got to repeat that behavior [30:25] every day for life so we seem to be in [30:27] inherently attracted to behaviors that [30:29] fall into that Loop because if we [30:31] weren't in the past um we wouldn't have [30:33] had as much incentive to continue [30:35] searching for food and in turn survive [30:38] so we still have that sort of ancient [30:40] hardware and are we the only ones or is [30:42] the rest of the animal kingdom wide in [30:43] such a way because one would assume they [30:45] would be yeah they are so the the guy [30:47] that I spoke to at the University of [30:49] Kentucky he does research on [30:50] pigeons and pigeons will play a gambling [30:54] game that gets them less overall res [30:57] resources compared to a predictable game [31:00] that gets them more food so we can [31:02] basically turn pigeons into these sort [31:04] of degenerate gamblers and you see it in [31:06] rats you see it in um other primates [31:09] yeah so when the rewards unpredictable [31:11] for a pigeon they engage in the behavior [31:14] more Yep which would again matches up [31:16] with your theory that whenever there's [31:17] unpredictable Awards associated with an [31:19] action we are more engaged because it [31:20] falls into that prehistoric Cloud wall [31:22] exactly think about um starting a car [31:26] okay you start your car um it turns on [31:28] every time that's not that exciting [31:31] right like it's not going to capture [31:32] your attention let's say you turn it on [31:34] and it doesn't turn over so you try it [31:36] again it doesn't turn over you try it [31:37] again it doesn't turn over what are you [31:39] going to do you're just going to be like [31:40] okay well my car's not starting I'm [31:41] going to fix it now what happens if you [31:43] go to start your car and it doesn't turn [31:45] over but it kind of Putters it goes like [31:48] it's going to turn on and then it stops [31:50] then you do it again and then it doesn't [31:51] do that and so you're like okay well [31:53] what's going on so you do it again it [31:54] starts to sound like it's going to come [31:56] on it's like don't D D D D but then it [31:58] doesn't you're going to sit there [31:59] messing with that so long as that car is [32:02] giving you signs of life right there's [32:03] this unpredictability embedded into it [32:06] and that'll capture attention of yeah [32:07] any animal pretty much and I mean that's [32:10] what when I was thinking about I think [32:11] it's called like near Miss Theory or [32:12] something that you you talk about in [32:14] your book that's kind of what that is [32:15] when you see you're on like a slot [32:16] machine and you see like the Cherry go [32:18] nearly you nearly got it you didn't [32:20] quite get it but is that called near is [32:23] it near Miss Theory or something yeah [32:24] near miss so near misses are a term from [32:27] the casino industry and in slot machines [32:30] let's say you have five reels and you [32:33] know you need these bars to line up [32:36] these gold bars or whatever they we'll [32:38] use cherries that's a better example you [32:40] got four cherries line up and if this [32:41] fifth Cherry hits you're going to win a [32:44] bunch of money now what will usually [32:46] happen in slot machines is that fifth [32:48] wheel they will be programmed to have [32:50] that thing roll longer and longer and [32:53] longer so they extend that out cuz you [32:54] are sucked in you're like if this thing [32:56] lands I'm about to win a bunch of [32:58] money and then it [33:01] lands but it's not the [33:03] Cherry what tends up what ends up [33:05] happening is that this leads people to [33:07] repeat the behavior quicker actually and [33:10] because uh near misses are [33:11] mathematically more likely to happen [33:13] than actual wins it compels people to [33:16] repeat the behavior do they use n misses [33:20] as a way to engage us with technology or [33:21] anything else in our lives is there like [33:23] any other examples within our modern [33:24] lives where I know brands or technology [33:27] companies are using that as a way to [33:29] engage us yeah well you could think if [33:31] you [33:32] um I mean say you get an update on your [33:36] phone let's say you go into Instagram [33:37] and you get an update and it's a comment [33:38] I mean you could [33:39] argue well a comment it could be good it [33:42] could be bad is this a comment from like [33:45] someone that I think is super cool [33:46] that's saying oh that's an amazing photo [33:48] you look wonderful on that photo or is [33:50] it some troll online going man you look [33:52] like a complete idiot in that right so [33:55] there's always unpredictability and [33:56] embeded in social media it wouldn't work [33:58] if you knew what was coming I guess [33:59] that's what why so many people just keep [34:01] tweeting and posting because it's kind [34:02] of like every post comes with a bunch of [34:05] likes and you're going you know you [34:06] might go viral yeah totally yeah think [34:08] of the think of the experience of using [34:10] um we'll take uh Twitter um now called X [34:14] apparently um so you let's say you have [34:17] come up with a a little tweet that you [34:19] think is hilarious it's of the moment [34:21] right so you put it up and then you wait [34:24] right the reals are spinning [34:27] and you open the up app back up and [34:29] you're like did people like it did they [34:31] retweet it and you don't know what what [34:32] could have happened it could be so [34:34] clever that like oh my God so many [34:36] people have retweeted this and this [34:38] feels amazing if this happens but it [34:40] could have fallen flat and then you're [34:42] like now I actually look like an idiot [34:44] because I put out a joke and no one [34:45] thinks it's funny it's like telling a [34:46] joke in front of a room and people just [34:48] stare at you right so there's this range [34:50] of unpredictable outcomes that could [34:52] happen same with scrolling though in a [34:54] way I mean you just scroll and scroll [34:56] and scroll and you're kind of searching [34:57] for that video that's going to provide [35:00] you with a hit of something right could [35:02] be oh here's some sort of crazy fight [35:06] that happened outside of a bar after a [35:08] Philadelphia Eagles game because the [35:09] fights are always in Philadelphia in the [35:11] US um or it could be this video this [35:15] amazing heartwarming dog video and that [35:18] makes me smile or it could be some [35:19] hilarious video that you're just [35:20] laughing your butt off until you're kind [35:21] of sucked into that waiting for the next [35:24] win right you're scrolling scrolling [35:26] scrolling and then that's the one that [35:28] got me how do we break out of this cuz I [35:31] you know I want to take back control [35:33] yeah well we all [35:35] do um well first I will say that um when [35:39] people fall into this loop I like to say [35:42] that you're not a bad person because [35:44] this is very much part of the human [35:46] brain you know people will be hard on [35:48] themselves because their screen time is [35:49] so high and like why do I keep doing [35:51] this thing so you're not a bad person [35:54] it's your ancient brain working against [35:56] you it's not your fault but it is your [36:00] problem you still have to figure out how [36:02] am I going to get out get out of this uh [36:05] the first step to me is just being aware [36:07] of it in the first place so once you [36:09] become uh aware of behavior and observe [36:12] a behavior it tends to change that's [36:14] called the Hawthorne effect and then the [36:17] second part is that you can remove or [36:21] change any of the three parts of that [36:24] Loop that I of the scarcity Loop that I [36:25] mentioned so you can remove or change [36:27] the opportunity you can REM remove or [36:29] change the unpredictable Rewards or you [36:31] can remove or change the quick [36:32] repeatability you can slow things down [36:34] in scarcity brain in chapter four you [36:36] talk about something I was also very [36:37] very compelled about which is you make [36:39] the case that we have an ingrained sense [36:41] of not being enough my first book the [36:44] last chapter is about this idea of like [36:45] not being enough I've always [36:46] hypothesized whether humans are built [36:50] with a I don't know a message in our [36:52] genetic code that tells us where we are [36:54] designed and we will struggle forward to [36:56] get more like is that hard wide into us [36:59] well I think that when you when you look [37:01] at how humans behave it seems to be [37:03] right and I think it does go back to [37:06] Evolution because if you had more of [37:08] these things that we need to survive [37:10] whether it's food to stuff to [37:12] information to um status you would have [37:14] a survival advantage and that's still um [37:17] built into us I think it still is [37:20] advantageous today to a point um now I'm [37:22] going to turn the question back on you [37:24] so it's like you probably you have that [37:27] drive right and that's taken you to a [37:29] certain place and now um you have [37:33] certain Financial assets and you've sort [37:35] of shifted though too your career so now [37:37] I'm turning it back on you how do you [37:39] feel like that's manifested itself in [37:40] your life I it's interesting because in [37:44] chapter 7 you talk about this idea of [37:45] status and I once upon a time three four [37:50] years ago would have told you that I'm [37:51] no longer playing status games because [37:53] three or four years ago I would have had [37:54] flashy things like I had like a Rolex [37:56] and like a sports car and designer stuff [38:00] now I have none of that the outfit you [38:01] see me in now is pretty much the outfit [38:02] everyone sees me in always and so I [38:04] assumed that I like liberated myself [38:06] from the game of status however I read [38:11] another book and it was it made the case [38:12] that are the status games we all play [38:14] just change and in fact it's an anti- [38:16] signal now for someone in my position to [38:18] have those things so I'm just playing a [38:20] different status game maybe the status [38:21] game I'm playing is how big can my [38:22] podcast be or how good can I be on like [38:25] TV or whatever it is MH it's just a [38:27] different game so that's kind of where I [38:29] think I am now I think I've just changed [38:31] the game no I think you're right I think [38:33] we all changed the game and we like to [38:35] we like to think that we're either not [38:36] playing the game or that the game hasn't [38:38] changed um everyone's like that so [38:40] what's it what's really interesting [38:41] about status which I I loved learning [38:43] when I was uh reporting about it in the [38:46] book is that [38:48] um psychological researchers they didn't [38:51] really research status all that much [38:53] until the 90s and this is because [38:57] they didn't want to admit that status is [38:59] important to humans because by [39:01] researching it you are saying this is [39:03] probably important to me so the worst [39:06] thing you can do for your status is tell [39:08] people that you care about your status [39:10] absolutely yet everyone cares about it [39:13] and everyone asks oh no I don't care I [39:14] don't care what others think about me [39:15] it's like yeah you do like let's I'll be [39:17] honest everyone cares to some extent [39:19] what others think about them in some way [39:21] and I think by talking about it and also [39:23] understanding why in the first place is [39:25] important now the reason why to me is [39:27] that the more status and influence that [39:29] you would have had in the past uh would [39:31] have given you a survival advantage in [39:33] the sense that you probably would have [39:34] to you probably wouldn't have to do the [39:36] crappy like menial labor that burns [39:38] energy you probably would have had more [39:39] mates you probably would have gotten [39:41] more food you probably would have gotten [39:42] all these things and still today when [39:44] you look at um how status affects Health [39:48] people of lower status tend to have [39:50] worse Health outcomes Than People of [39:52] higher status and so you might think [39:55] well this is just because the the higher [39:56] status people have more money and they [39:58] can go to better hospitals and get [39:59] better healthare but the thing is is [40:01] that it holds in countries that have [40:04] Universal healthare so everyone's [40:05] healthare access is pretty much [40:08] equal could it not relate to the type of [40:11] work they're doing because as you kind [40:13] of said earlier I think of if you're [40:14] lower status one might assume the type [40:18] of work you're doing is constrained MH [40:22] low autonomy maybe more isolated [40:25] potentially monotonous or less [40:27] fulfilling and that might have [40:28] physiological [40:29] implications um it's interesting people [40:31] that are higher status live [40:33] longer that's not a nice narrative is it [40:36] yeah no and that's the thing it's like [40:37] it's not super comfortable to talk about [40:39] right um and it definitely affects us [40:43] and here's a here's a sort of fun crazy [40:47] study that I came across while reporting [40:48] scarcity brain is that uh flights that [40:52] have a first class cabin they have a [40:54] four-fold higher rate of rage compare [40:57] compared to flights that don't have a [40:59] first class cabin and if the passengers [41:04] in second class coach have to walk [41:07] through the first class cabin the rate [41:10] increases to a ninefold increase in [41:13] incidents of air rage what is air rage [41:15] people going absolutely nuts on flights [41:18] it's like when there's a there's a big [41:20] incident with you know the the flight [41:22] attendant or someone just losing their [41:25] mind and they have to ground plane or [41:26] whatever it might be and why do you [41:27] think that is well the researchers think [41:29] it's because of that massive status [41:31] queue of having to walk through first [41:33] class and by the way you're not first [41:34] class because you're in coach we talked [41:37] about um food in your how you covered it [41:40] in your first book but in your second [41:41] book scarcity brain you talk about food [41:42] again specifically you talk quite a lot [41:45] about snacking oh yeah snacking what's [41:47] the problem with snacking everybody [41:49] snacks so this isn't in the [41:51] 1970s the food industry decided you know [41:54] we need to come up with this new [41:55] category [41:56] of eating and it's eating between meals [41:59] snacking now if people are eating three [42:02] Square meals um they may not be super [42:05] full so they kind of need just these [42:06] little meals they can have and they need [42:09] to be easy to eat they need to be quick [42:11] to eat so they come up with um snack [42:13] foods and what's really interesting is [42:16] that uh you know I told you about the [42:18] scarcity Loop there is a executive in [42:21] the food industry who's was talking [42:23] about what makes a snack food successful [42:26] like how do you sell snack food and he [42:28] said it has to have three V's it's got [42:29] to have value it's got to have variety [42:32] and it's got to have velocity that's [42:34] just another way of talking about that [42:35] Loop so right it's a good value variety [42:38] it's got to have a lot of different [42:40] interesting intense flavors and there's [42:42] got to be a lot of different options so [42:44] when you think about chips or crisps as [42:46] you guys you guys call them crisps right [42:48] there's a bunch of different flavors [42:49] there's like barbecue there's sour cream [42:51] there's salsa there's like all these [42:52] different flavors and then um velocity [42:55] it has to be quick to eat so when you [42:57] Ultra process a food as I mentioned [42:59] before people tend to eat it faster and [43:02] so the industry really leans into this [43:04] they create snacking as this totally new [43:05] category and this is um in the 70s is [43:07] when you really start to see obesity [43:09] climb and it's because we just end up [43:11] eating more across the day meantime our [43:14] activity levels are are dropping there's [43:17] a kind of a through line there with [43:18] gambling when you talked about velocity [43:20] the the speed in which you get the [43:22] outcome mhm being short the faster we [43:25] can do a Behavior the more likely we are [43:27] to repeat the behavior especially if [43:29] it's unpredictable so one of the big [43:31] advances in Casino technology for [43:33] example with slot machines was removing [43:35] the handles because you know if you've [43:38] um if the machine has a handle you have [43:45] to once they got rid of handles and just [43:47] put a spin button you can keep your hand [43:49] on the button and [43:52] just and it basically doubled the rate [43:54] of gambling so people went from playing [43:56] I think 400 to 500 games in an hour up [43:59] to an average of 900 so that's more if [44:02] you break that down by minute um it's [44:03] more than we [44:05] blink interesting yeah with a crazy [44:09] range of outcomes too why can't it so if [44:12] snacking is a sort relatively new [44:15] invention in modern society and it's [44:17] it's correlated to the rise in [44:19] obesity can we not just measure the [44:21] amount of calories that we have like can [44:23] we not just do the you know the whole [44:24] calories in calories out approach to [44:26] staying fit and healthy oh I I think you [44:29] absolutely could but I just the question [44:31] is are people going to actually do that [44:33] I mean I think there's a certain sub you [44:34] know there's a portion of the population [44:36] that will do that and you know I do [44:39] believe that if you were to measure [44:41] everything perfectly you have um you [44:44] know you could probably lose weight [44:45] eating McDonald's and there's people who [44:47] have shown this at the same time if you [44:49] are eating only McDonald's I can tell [44:50] you something you are going to be [44:51] starving throughout the day because [44:54] foods that are Ultra processed tend to [44:56] less filling per calorie than foods that [44:58] have just a single ingredient so I want [45:00] you to picture um you and I have a bag [45:05] of potato chips and then we have a plate [45:07] of boiled [45:08] potatoes what do you think we could have [45:10] more calories [45:12] of aren't they the same thing they both [45:14] made of [45:15] potato the the fried potatoes right [45:18] right really the chips so if you like [45:21] how you could probably eat an entire bag [45:23] of chips if you really set your mind to [45:25] it oh yeah but you could e an equivalent [45:27] amount of calories and boiled potatoes I [45:29] mean it would you would get full like a [45:32] quarter of the way through so for [45:34] example you know like a boil an ounce of [45:36] boiled potatoes might have 50 to 100 [45:38] calories an ounce of chips might have [45:41] 200 whatever it is and by the way it's [45:43] also not as filling because there's not [45:45] as much water content um so when you [45:49] process a food you concentrate the [45:50] calories and people tend to eat more of [45:52] the food I don't eat them anymore but [45:55] they to be one of my favorite foods and [45:57] in your first book I think you you came [45:59] for them which is quasons but I I don't [46:02] have those anymore because they make you [46:04] feel like and my gut hates them but [46:06] you use a crossant as an example of a [46:09] food that makes us less full MH yeah so [46:13] there's this really interesting study [46:14] out of Australia where they um had [46:17] people eat a certain amount of different [46:19] types of foods and then they had them go [46:22] eat at a buffet a certain amount of time [46:24] later and measured how much they ate [46:26] after and asked them how how full they [46:28] were after eating the test food [46:30] so they found that the most filling food [46:33] per calorie was plain boiled potatoes um [46:37] I think after that was just plain white [46:40] fish that was a relatively lowfat fish [46:43] and then after that I think it was [46:44] oatmeal just plain oatmeal and the least [46:46] filling Foods were tended to be things [46:49] like croissants cookies foods like that [46:53] foods that have been um you know we're [46:56] we're mixing [46:58] flour fat all these sorts of things and [47:00] baking it and it's like this nice crispy [47:02] thing so it's really a it's a [47:04] measurement of how processed a food is [47:06] basically a small croissant and white [47:09] potato both have about 170 calories but [47:12] you'd have to eat seven cants before you [47:15] feel the same amount of fullness as one [47:17] potato H how much of weight gain is [47:20] about the feeling of fullness because [47:22] it's not really a concept that I really [47:23] thought much about this idea of fullness [47:25] I thought [47:26] the key thing was calories or not eating [47:29] junk food but [47:31] fullness well I think that you will [47:33] be [47:35] Fuller or you will be as full eating [47:38] fewer uh and end up eating fewer [47:40] calories if the food is not as processed [47:43] so the foods just they take up more room [47:46] in your stomach they're not packing in [47:47] as much calories per [47:49] bite let's say for you to be full you [47:51] have to eat 10 ounces of [47:53] food and we have one food then that has [47:56] 50 calories per ounce and one food that [47:58] has 100 calories per ounce right so if [48:02] you were to eat the 10 oun of this food [48:04] you're going to eat 500 calories but if [48:05] you eat 10 ounces of this food you're [48:07] going to eat a thousand and I think that [48:09] you extrapolate that across the day and [48:11] you start to see oh okay I can see why [48:13] choosing foods that help me be more full [48:16] on fewer calories could be good if my [48:17] goal was to lose weight or not gain [48:20] weight compared to F foods that are more [48:22] calorie dense what's your position on [48:23] fasting I think that it can be a good [48:25] weight control tool for some people I [48:27] think um it can [48:30] constrain like look if you're a person [48:32] who's eating around the clock and you go [48:35] okay well I'm just going to eat from [48:37] noon to whatever 6:00 p.m. or 700 p.m. [48:41] you've just cut out a lot of meals um I [48:44] also think that if you were to go well [48:46] since I'm only eating from noon to 6:00 [48:48] p.m. um I better eat a ton every single [48:50] meal I don't know if you would lose [48:52] weight I think there could be definitely [48:54] some um health benefits [48:56] possibly um but I also think that if [48:59] you're doing these extended fast that [49:00] could maybe not be great for for muscle [49:02] mass so I think it kind of goes back to [49:04] like these things are complicated right [49:05] and I think it kind of goes back to uh [49:07] what is your goal uh how are you trying [49:10] to use this tool like what are you doing [49:12] this for and then is the way that you're [49:15] doing it does it align properly with [49:17] your goal but I do I mean I've met [49:19] plenty of people who have lost weight [49:21] fasting simply because they ate crap for [49:24] breakfast and they would stop at [49:26] Starbucks on the way um to work and get [49:29] some sugary drink and like just by [49:32] cutting that out because now they don't [49:33] eat till noon like they ended up losing [49:35] weight you talk about hungry [49:38] days programming two hungry days per [49:40] week yes hung day that's one that um has [49:43] worked for some people where you could [49:45] eat relatively normally say 5 days a [49:47] week and then people will eat say 500 [49:49] calories on their two hungry days so [49:51] basically you're just constraining your [49:52] calories basically just pulling the [49:54] lever of time right um if you can at the [49:58] end of the day it [49:59] um I think really calories is probably [50:02] the best predictor of weight gain or [50:04] loss and so the question is okay if you [50:07] need to reduce the calories how are we [50:09] going to do that and there's a lot of [50:10] different ways to do it I think that [50:11] fasting is pretty damn simple right it [50:13] seems a lot simpler than some of the [50:15] other methods out there I was on a a [50:17] treadmill many years ago in Boston and I [50:20] always tell the story cuz I'd got into [50:21] this routine of running like 5 10 kmers [50:23] a day every day on the treadmill pretty [50:25] much every on the treadmill and I and [50:27] when I got to that 510 km Mark I would [50:29] typically feel like fatigued and then [50:31] there was this one day where I landed in [50:33] Boston got on this treadmill that the [50:35] distance dial wasn't working so I [50:37] couldn't see how far I was running so I [50:39] thought well I'll stop when I feel the [50:40] usual feeling and I start running and I [50:43] start running and I start running and I [50:44] start running and I only get off the [50:46] treadmill because I'm going to be late [50:47] for this appointment that I have and [50:48] when I hit the stop treadmill button the [50:51] distance pops up and I've run two times [50:54] further than I usually run on a [50:55] treadmill and I didn't feel the same I [50:58] felt fine felt fine and I couldn't [51:01] understand that until and I've said this [51:02] on stage quite quite often as evidence [51:04] that there's clearly something going on [51:05] in our psychology that is signaling to [51:08] our body that we are at our limits and [51:11] that's clearly somewhat of an illusion [51:12] and then I read in your first book The [51:14] Comfort crisis this idea of where you [51:16] talk about mental fatigue does that kind [51:18] of marry up to what I'm what I'm saying [51:20] oh 100% muscular fatigue sorry our [51:22] psychology effects are how we perform [51:25] basically and there's a lot of [51:26] fascinating studies um similar to yours [51:28] where they will uh take people and um [51:31] you know they'll give them some sort of [51:32] cue like we're gonna run as run as far [51:34] as you can um most people are getting [51:38] about an hour so they'll give them this [51:40] Quee and then they will change the uh [51:43] time basically they'll change the clock [51:46] so the people maybe have run 40 minutes [51:48] in real in reality but they think [51:50] they've done you know an hour and 5 [51:52] minutes which is 5 minutes longer than [51:54] some of the better times and they'll be [51:56] like okay I'm totally wiped out they'll [51:58] do opposite where they slow down time so [52:01] these people will have run an hour and [52:02] say 30 minutes I'm making up the times [52:05] but they think they've run that hour and [52:06] five minutes just a little bit better [52:08] than the next guy and then they'll then [52:09] they'll be like okay I'm totally [52:11] fatigued and there's plenty of research [52:13] that goes back years that basically says [52:15] our psychological perceptions is a key [52:17] determinant of um how tired we feel [52:21] during exercise cuz at the heart of this [52:23] Comfort crisis is our psychological [52:25] relationship with discomfort discomfort [52:27] to me feels like a story I tell myself [52:30] oh it's totally a story yeah what story [52:32] are you going to tell yourself right so [52:33] here's another great [52:35] example your [52:37] legs they're they're spasming they're [52:39] tired if you're running up a hill it [52:42] sucks you want to quit if you're having [52:44] sex this is great right like context [52:48] really matters about how we feel and so [52:51] I think also realizing you know there's [52:54] some really fascinating studies [52:56] that show we don't recruit all of our um [52:58] capacity more or less because uh it's a [53:01] defense mechanism right you want to keep [53:03] some capacity on board so your brain is [53:05] trying to slow you down and shut you [53:07] down before you've reached your limit [53:10] framing how you want to view how a [53:12] workout is going is important right and [53:14] I think it can allow you to squeeze a [53:15] little more performance out of it now [53:17] let's say your brain only allows you to [53:19] recruit 50% of your muscle I don't think [53:21] you can go I've only gotten 50% and [53:23] you're going to get like up to 100 like [53:26] doesn't work like that but I do think [53:28] running it through like context and [53:30] thought and realizing like this actually [53:32] isn't as bad and by the way I've chosen [53:34] to do this and it's kind of awesome that [53:35] I can choose to do this can allow you to [53:38] perform a little better I wonder I wish [53:40] there was like a magic pill we could [53:41] take which allowed us to change the [53:44] frame and the story We Tell ourselves [53:46] about the discomfort we experience you [53:48] know because there's clearly a big group [53:50] of people that are able to you know [53:52] Ultra Runners and Ultra athletes and all [53:54] this stuff but you but this can also be [53:56] I mean this isn't just exercise we're [53:58] talking about right it's like what story [53:59] am I going to tell myself in any given [54:01] situation so I get I'll give you a good [54:03] example is that um so I spend 33 days in [54:06] the Arctic right now to get up to where [54:10] the drop off point is you have to take a [54:11] bunch of different flights my first [54:12] flight is from Las Vegas to uh [54:16] Seattle and I hate flying right the [54:19] plane is always too hot the seed is [54:21] cramped the movies suck on the plane if [54:23] you want to go to the bathroom it's just [54:25] cramped little closet babies crying it's [54:27] just it's [54:28] terrible then I go spend a month in the [54:31] Arctic where I'm hungry the entire time [54:36] if I want water I have to hike down to [54:37] the stream and Hike it back up I'm [54:39] freezing cold the entire time I'm [54:41] sitting in the dirt the entire time if I [54:43] want to go to the bathroom I have to [54:44] hike out onto the tundra and I got to [54:45] bring a rifle because there's grizzly [54:48] bears so when I leave that world and I [54:51] get back on that flight to Las Vegas [54:53] what do you think the flight was like h [54:56] amazing this is the most amazing thing [54:58] that's ever happened to me right so the [55:00] chair I hadn't sat in a chair for more [55:01] than a month it's like oh my God this [55:03] chair is so incredibly comfortable I'd [55:06] been freezing the entire time so that [55:09] warm plane I was like oh this plane is [55:10] so comfortable so nice and warm I'd been [55:13] bored out of my mind up there the whole [55:15] time because I don't have any screens or [55:16] anything so those movies in the seat [55:18] back oh my God this is the most [55:20] stimulating thing I've ever watched this [55:21] is [55:22] incredible um snack food I used to think [55:25] the airplane snack food sucked I'm like [55:26] oh my God these pretzels amazing and [55:29] then when I go to the bathroom right [55:30] it's you hit this little red Tab and you [55:34] get hot running water that hits your [55:35] hands at 35,000 ft and you're moving 600 [55:40] mes hour through tube of Steel it's like [55:44] when that hot water hit my hands it was [55:47] incredible so context matters because [55:51] once I went and did that that totally [55:53] reframed how I think about these [55:55] situations that I used to about in [55:56] the past and now I can appreciate them [55:59] so the reality is is [56:01] that the world that we live in today is [56:04] amazing in so many ways like full stop [56:07] incredible the fact that we have hot [56:09] running water on demand the fact that we [56:11] have all these different forms of [56:13] entertainment the fact that we don't [56:14] have to hunt and gather for our food [56:17] like we're not forced to do these things [56:19] um but we often miss how amazing that is [56:23] because we're like the fish thrown in [56:24] the water that don't in the water and um [56:27] I do think that doing things that push [56:30] back against that having experiences [56:31] that you throw yourself into they can be [56:33] big and small that throw you out of your [56:35] comfort zone and give you perspective I [56:37] do think that that is important um in [56:39] order to live well and get perspective [56:42] and have gratitude I mean I still have [56:45] times today [56:46] where I'll be washing my hands the [56:48] water's nice and hot and I'll think back [56:50] to that and be like Oh remember when [56:51] like hot running water hit your hands [56:53] and you got emotional how amazing it is [56:55] I mean it's good to have these reminders [56:57] that life is pretty amazing right now [56:59] we've come pretty far it made me think [57:02] that discomfort is an antidote for [57:03] happiness in that regard because you [57:06] know and also then my it popped into my [57:07] brain what I what I used to learn about [57:09] the stoic people and how they do that [57:11] sort of what hnis adaptation and they [57:13] would um remove the pleasantries from [57:15] their lives so that they could [57:16] appreciate them more yeah we adapt to [57:19] what we have so it's like today's [57:22] pleasure is tomorrow is just any given [57:24] thing and we're looking for the next [57:25] pleasure and um there's some interesting [57:29] studies about this as well one of my [57:30] favorites from the comfort crisis is [57:32] this study that found that as people [57:34] experience fewer and fewer problems we [57:37] don't um become more satisfied we simply [57:39] start searching for the next problem [57:41] really yes it's called it's a theory it [57:44] was discovered by Harvard researchers in [57:45] the psychology department and it's the [57:47] technical term they call it as [57:49] prevalence induced concept change and [57:50] you can just think about it as problem [57:52] creep Now problem creep creep right so [57:56] you know what used to be a problem [57:59] yesterday or we're always going to look [58:01] for problems it's basically what I'm [58:02] trying to say um and they discovered [58:05] this where in this study where they [58:06] would have people look at a bunch of [58:08] different faces and determine you know [58:11] is this face threatening or [58:12] non-threatening they'd go one face after [58:14] another and by the 200th face though [58:17] this the scientists started feeding the [58:19] participant or the yeah the study [58:20] participants fewer and fewer threatening [58:23] faces the other study they did two of [58:26] these they had them look at research [58:28] papers and determine whether the [58:30] research papers were ethical or [58:32] unethical same deal about Midway through [58:35] they start feeding them fewer and fewer [58:37] unethical research [58:39] proposals now if these two things are [58:41] black or white the groups would have [58:42] said threatening fewer times as time [58:44] went on they would have found fewer and [58:46] fewer unethical research proposals [58:48] because they've been given less right [58:49] because they've been given less but that [58:52] didn't happen what they did is they said [58:54] said threatening the exact same amount [58:56] of times they took faces that were kind [58:58] of on the border that they would have [58:59] passed up and not said were threatening [59:01] before they started deeming those [59:02] threatening same with the research [59:03] proposals they started getting more [59:05] nitpicky now the scientist who I uh [59:08] spoke with his name is David lavari yep [59:12] getting his name right I remembered it [59:15] um he explained that probably in the [59:18] past it gave you a survival advantage to [59:20] always be looking for the next problem [59:22] right cuz if you're a type of person [59:23] who's vigilant going okay we might run [59:26] out of food that is problematic we got [59:28] to fix it um this is a problem let's fix [59:30] that if you're Vigilant like that that [59:32] would that would help you survive right [59:34] but applied to today's world where [59:37] you've seen the world get better and [59:39] better over [59:40] time it often causes us to miss how [59:43] amazing it is and pile up first world [59:46] problems right so uh there's also [59:50] amazing research where researchers will [59:52] ask the average American do you think [59:54] the world world is improving and only 6% [59:57] of people think the world is improving [60:00] it's because we look for the next [60:01] problem but if you think about that from [60:04] like let's take the last 500 years like [60:06] of course the world is better you live [60:09] longer you're more likely to be literate [60:11] you're less likely to be starving you're [60:13] less likely to use a child yeah exactly [60:16] on and on and on but we often don't um [60:19] realize that in the moment and that [60:20] affects us are we getting you know you [60:22] talked about the abundance we have in [60:23] the world but are we getting [60:25] happier do you know any stats around [60:28] around our Collective happiness or how [60:30] we report on [60:32] that yeah I think a lot of the research [60:34] on happiness suggests that we are less [60:36] happy than we were um more mental health [60:39] problems as well we all know those stats [60:41] around Depression more mental health [60:42] problems yep and there's probably a [60:44] variety of reasons for that but I do [60:46] think that one one thing that's [60:48] interesting [60:51] um we seem to live in a world where uh [60:55] a lot of people have enough of what they [60:56] need to survive and if they don't it's [60:59] probably a governmental problem it's [61:01] probably a distribution problem um and [61:04] this I'm mainly talking about developed [61:05] countries here but as we've got more and [61:08] more and more we haven't necessarily [61:10] become more happy so for example I think [61:12] their year was from 1970 to about [61:15] 2000 the real income of Americans grew [61:19] by 50% so this is um this factors in you [61:23] know price adjustments [61:25] inflation so people got 50% richer on [61:28] average yet happiness didn't change in [61:31] fact it might have actually decreased a [61:32] little bit so this suggests that once [61:35] our needs are met to a certain point [61:38] like it's not necessarily going to make [61:39] us happier yet we keep thinking that you [61:41] know happiness is going to be in the [61:42] next purchase that it's in the next meal [61:45] out that it's in the next uh viral tweet [61:47] or whatever it might be did they [61:49] discover an antidote for this sort of [61:50] incessant search for problems because [61:53] I'd like to be content [61:55] yeah well that that's the that's the [61:56] search right that's the that's the [61:58] ultimate human search I think that a lot [62:00] of uh religions they're set up to [62:03] counter [62:05] that right don't don't uh don't steal [62:09] because you're taking away from someone [62:11] else and Society falls apart don't be [62:14] gluttonous because that's going to give [62:16] you problems don't you know they're all [62:18] telling us don't overdo all these [62:21] worldly things that we tend to overdo [62:23] and instead the f is to you know take [62:26] the focus off [62:27] yourself and put it on something that [62:30] will help you um kind of do the next [62:32] right thing now those get interpreted in [62:34] ways that can be controversial of course [62:37] but I do think that the overall [62:38] architecture is the same and that is the [62:40] that is the ultimate question for all [62:42] people right my whole team here have got [62:44] more and more into running we speak [62:47] about running all the time and obviously [62:48] you know Daniel liberman who's been on [62:49] the show before I think he wrote well he [62:51] wrote a book on running didn't he it's [62:52] his last book the one we had a [62:53] conversation with on the show what's [62:55] your perspective on exercise running and [62:59] what did you learn when you studied um [63:01] nomadic tribes about the importance of [63:04] exercise yeah well I mean I do think [63:06] that um it's probably the best thing [63:08] that you can do for your health is [63:10] exercising and I think that um you know [63:12] a lot of people will say exercise is [63:14] medicine I think more that inactivity is [63:17] poison so we evolved to have a certain [63:19] amount of activity in our daily life [63:21] like we need that in order to be get a [63:23] certain to healthy and happy and we [63:27] often don't get that today the way we [63:29] design Our Lives um something I write [63:30] about in the comfort crisis [63:33] is uh the human body is good at two [63:36] things humans have all to be good at two [63:37] things one of them is running long [63:40] distances relatively slowly which I'm [63:41] sure Daniel liberman talked about [63:43] because he's the dude who discovered [63:45] that he's great but the other thing that [63:47] we are good at is carrying things for [63:50] distance so you you ask okay well why [63:53] are we good at this long distance [63:55] running in the Heat and it's because we [63:57] would chase down animals who are not [63:59] good at cooling themselves um for miles [64:02] and miles and miles until they [64:03] overheated and then we would kill them [64:05] and we would have our [64:07] meal but then what happens after you [64:09] kill an animal away from [64:14] Camp call an anci [64:16] Uber you got to carry back yeah and [64:19] we're the only uh we're the only animal [64:22] that can carry things for distance [64:25] well and that absolutely shaped us just [64:29] as much as running did so we've got [64:31] these hands that can grip things [64:33] strongly we're built in such a way that [64:35] um we can carry stuff for distance and I [64:38] argue in the comfort crisis a lot of [64:40] people still run like jogging is popular [64:44] but carrying things as a [64:47] workout is something that a lot of [64:49] people don't do and so I advocate for uh [64:53] rucking which is loading up a backpack [64:56] with weight and walking and when you [64:59] compare uh rucking to running rocking [65:02] tends to um be less injurious so people [65:06] the injury rate is much lower it also [65:10] preserves more [65:12] muscle than running does so when you run [65:15] you're burning fat but you're also [65:16] burning muscle when you rock because you [65:18] have weight on your body it's signaling [65:20] your body like don't burn quite quite as [65:22] much muscle and studies bear that out [65:24] um so you're kind of getting cardio and [65:26] weight training in one and I think it's [65:28] a good thing that people should be doing [65:29] I'm not saying don't ever run but I am [65:31] saying we've engineered this really [65:34] important form of human physical [65:36] activity which is carrying things for [65:39] long distances out of our lives and by [65:41] adding it back in I think we do get a [65:43] lot of different benefits how does the [65:45] modern body look different to the body [65:48] of our ancestors in that regard or these [65:51] um nomadic tribe tribes do they have [65:53] sort of cuz I imagine if they're if [65:55] they're carrying things in a world where [65:57] we can put it in the boot of a car or [65:59] find some other means using Wheels to [66:01] roll it they must be physiologically um [66:05] adapted in certain ways I think that [66:08] well I think that in my experience and [66:10] you would have to talk to Dan as well to [66:12] see if he um agrees with this but I do [66:14] think that most Hunter gathers are much [66:18] smaller than the average Westerner is [66:21] they're just much smaller because they [66:23] don't have as much food they're also far [66:26] more active and so they're not giant [66:29] people when you look at when you look at [66:31] people in the west today were giant [66:34] people in the grand scheme of time and [66:35] space who burns more calories uh well if [66:38] you did it per pound of body weight they [66:41] do like by far but when you they might [66:45] wait so you have to do it by how big the [66:47] person is right if you have two people [66:49] that are burning 3,000 [66:51] calories great but if one person weigh [66:54] weighs 250 lb and the other weighs 120 [66:56] lb well the person who's 120 lb is [66:58] burning far more for their body weight [67:00] and that's an important distinction that [67:01] needs to be made when we talk about do [67:04] hunter gatherers burn as many calories [67:06] as Westerner because there's some people [67:07] who are like well they burn the same [67:08] it's like yeah they're 100b on average [67:10] we're on average 200 lb like that's a [67:12] big difference the arms of the average [67:15] Prehistoric Women for example were 16% [67:17] stronger than those of today's women's [67:19] Olympic rowers yeah Jesus yeah they're [67:22] they're very fit people I mean they can [67:24] go there's this one um Anthropologist I [67:27] talked to who spent some time with [67:29] hunter gatherers in Tanzania and she [67:31] talked about how even the older people [67:34] in the tribe we're talking about you [67:35] know 70 80 year old women they can just [67:38] hike all day they can hurdle over rocks [67:40] like it's like they're monsters and I'm [67:42] like you know she's a 30-year-old woman [67:44] she's like I'm kind of trailing behind [67:46] these these women that are like two [67:48] almost three times my [67:51] age and that's because they've stayed [67:53] active in kept muscle mass right yeah [67:55] they stayed active and so when you think [67:56] about daily life [68:00] um a lot of it is effortful so they're [68:03] not just Co they're not just covering [68:06] ground they're covering ground that is [68:08] rough right it's all [68:10] Outdoors um that's going to require more [68:12] energy than a than a sidewalk they're [68:15] carrying stuff they're squatting they're [68:18] digging they're some of them will climb [68:21] trees even when they're resting they [68:23] might rest in the squat position where [68:25] we are going to rest in a lazy boy and [68:26] just melt into it right so there's this [68:28] all this I mean besides just the stuff [68:30] that we would look at and say like yeah [68:32] that's active I mean even just resting [68:34] is more active than we're they're always [68:36] undergoing some low level of physical [68:38] activity and now we've engineered so [68:42] much of that out of our lives and that's [68:43] undoubtedly changed us but we don't even [68:45] know it's like we're born into it right [68:46] because as a species we evolved to do [68:48] the next easiest most comfortable thing [68:51] so we have applied that with technology [68:53] ology to our [68:55] environments and it's good overall but [69:00] it's changed us it's changed our fitness [69:02] it's changed our physicality and once we [69:05] did that and realized oh we've taken out [69:07] all this physical activity out of our [69:09] lives and now we're getting sick for it [69:12] we go well I guess let's just like build [69:13] these buildings where um you just go and [69:16] you know maybe you run on a belt and [69:18] maybe you pick up some uh weights that [69:20] are perfectly balanced and you do that [69:23] you know how about three sets of 10 [69:25] that's what we'll call it right so when [69:27] we we basically invented exercise right [69:30] and it's not the same as we used to [69:32] necessarily do in the past I'm not [69:33] saying that there's anything wrong with [69:34] that but I just saying that the way that [69:36] we are Physically Active today even that [69:38] has changed greatly like no one in the [69:40] past would have tried to get Giant and [69:43] lift a bunch of Weights that it doesn't [69:44] make sense to have all this extra muscle [69:46] you didn't have enough food to grow it [69:47] you didn't want to be carrying that [69:49] around on your persons I mean think of [69:51] mountain climbers they don't like bulk [69:52] up for a climb right they don't get huge [69:54] and jacked it's like no you need to be [69:56] strong for your weight you need to be as [69:58] strong as possible for your weight but [69:59] you don't want to have any excess weight [70:01] and today you have people who are like I [70:03] just want to be like 250 pounds of pure [70:04] muscle it's going to be awesome people [70:06] always people have been saying to me [70:07] that calisthenics is one of the more [70:08] important exercises probably for that [70:10] very reason that lifting your body [70:12] weight is probably the central being [70:14] able to move your body is the most [70:16] important thing not having massive guns [70:19] yeah and I think it is a strange thing [70:21] like there is some research that says [70:22] that muscle mass um is good for [70:24] longevity and protective um a lot of [70:26] those studies are often conducted um [70:28] looking at people who are sarcopenic and [70:30] there's a difference between people who [70:32] have a dangerously low level of muscle [70:34] mass and those who just have a ton just [70:36] to have it I think probably The Sweet [70:37] Spot is just be in a as much as BMI is a [70:41] controversial measurement I think [70:43] probably be in a BMI that is normal and [70:46] try and be strong for your weight and do [70:48] a bunch of cardiovascular exercise I [70:50] mean just look at like what did humans [70:52] do for all of time that's probably a [70:53] pretty good road map to try and mimic [70:56] and you tend to find that those people [70:58] aren't that giant Daniel liberman said [71:00] something to me which is clearly so [71:02] obvious but really did shock me he said [71:05] when he spoke to these sort of hunter [71:07] gatherer tribe [71:09] communities they almost laughed at him [71:11] when he asked them what they do for [71:13] exercise because the concept of exercise [71:16] is not something they think about [71:17] because they're exercising all day so I [71:20] think he remarked that one of those [71:22] communities turned around him and was [71:23] like why would you run for [71:25] fun totally yeah they he was go what do [71:28] you do for exercise and they probably [71:29] said what the hell's exercise literally [71:31] like oh he said like something like [71:32] training what do you do to train and [71:34] they were like training like we it's [71:36] part of our life is exercise well that's [71:37] how it was for all of us forever like no [71:40] one moved just to move because our [71:43] lifestyles in the past were we had to [71:46] just move for work and you wouldn't want [71:47] to do any extra because you were moving [71:49] all day for labor I mean this was Farm [71:50] labor really taxing most people worked [71:52] in agriculture um until the Industrial [71:56] Revolution um exercise is something that [71:58] we invented once we engineered movement [71:59] out of our Lives you took about a second [72:02] ago about exercise as a psychological [72:04] act I.E once upon a time when we were [72:06] out in nature exercising we would be [72:09] psychologically stimulated because there [72:10] might be a bear or I don't know a lineon [72:12] coming at us so we we're we're moving [72:14] our bodies but our mind is so attuned to [72:16] everything happening around us now as [72:18] you said we're on in these gyms with [72:20] these rubber belts and we're watching [72:22] like I don't know we're like looking at [72:24] the screen or watching Netflix or just [72:26] yeah whatever real housewise on the on [72:28] the treadmill does that having exercise [72:32] be a psychological act where it's [72:33] psychologically stimulating through the [72:35] when you're doing it does that matter [72:38] yeah why I just wrote a deep dive about [72:40] this on my newsletter um which I call 2% [72:42] we can I can explain why I call it 2% [72:44] but when you think about the context of [72:46] exercise um that we used to do in the [72:50] past there are so many more things [72:52] happening than just [72:54] the physical work of moving your body [72:56] across the land so as you're moving take [73:00] take something like trail [73:01] running you're having to figure out okay [73:03] well where am I going to place each foot [73:06] because the trail might be Rocky you [73:07] might even not even be on a trail so [73:09] you're having to figure out what what is [73:10] my foot placement you're also having to [73:12] factor in okay how am I going to Pace [73:14] myself knowing I have this distance to [73:16] go knowing that it is this hot outside [73:18] knowing that I have this much water with [73:19] me you're also having to factor in [73:21] things in the periphery like are there [73:23] wild animals out there and if you are [73:26] running because you are say hunting in [73:29] the past you're having to track the [73:30] animal that is an exceedingly [73:32] psychologically taxing act you're [73:34] looking at you're going okay well we got [73:36] a broken Branch there oh looks like [73:38] there's a blood spatter from that you [73:40] know Arrow we put in it it is if running [73:43] on a treadmill is like [73:45] addition running outside in the context [73:47] that we would have run outside is like [73:48] multivar calculus and there's a [73:51] researcher at USC named David rein and [73:57] he's thought about this a lot and he [73:59] basically thinks that you know when you [74:01] compare running indoors staring at a [74:03] screen your brain just kind of shuts off [74:05] you don't really have to do much [74:07] cognitive work as you do this exercise [74:09] yes it is good for your cardiovascular [74:11] health he will say but when you exercise [74:14] Outdoors especially if it's in sort of [74:16] Wilder nature like on a trail think [74:18] running on a trail you're having to do a [74:20] lot of cognitive work as you do that and [74:22] that might be better for brain health as [74:24] well in the long run for people not to [74:27] mention outdoor exercise exercise is [74:30] also harder you're probably going to [74:31] burn more calories per step you're going [74:33] to have more ups and downs you're going [74:34] to have like it's just it's just better [74:36] overall how much do you really know [74:39] about your health for me that answer was [74:41] simple the answer was very little until [74:44] whoop came along as you guys know they [74:46] sponsor this podcast but even before [74:48] then who was integral for me to know [74:50] what's going on inside my body most of [74:52] my friends my family and my team now use [74:54] W but I still have a few friends that [74:56] are on the fence about getting on board [74:58] and what I hear from some of those [74:59] friends is that they're a little bit [75:00] worried about what they might see in the [75:01] data and they might feel uncomfortable [75:04] about knowing what's going on inside [75:05] their body if I learned anything it is [75:08] that knowledge is power and once I [75:10] finally started to look at the data and [75:11] understand how getting less sleep was [75:13] affecting my body and how my old [75:15] lifestyle was actually hurting my [75:17] long-term Health everything changed for [75:19] the better so if this is something that [75:20] you'd like to try out head over to join. [75:24] whoop.com [75:25] CEO and you'll get to try whoop for 30 [75:28] days risk-free with zero commitment try [75:33] it and let me know how you get on as [75:35] you'll know this podcast is sponsored by [75:36] H and we're going into that last quarter [75:38] of the year it's getting a little bit [75:40] colder back into our routines back into [75:42] our work rhythms and it's in those [75:44] moments that I need to focus most on my [75:46] diet as I get back into the swing of [75:48] work I need to get back into a routine [75:49] as it relates to my diet and that's [75:51] really where hu's RTD they're ready to [75:53] drink range comes in handy in a bottle [75:55] you have a nutritionally complete meal [75:58] that you can consume in a minute so this [75:59] is a real Lifesaver in terms of my [76:01] health it is my Ally and my friend and [76:04] my companion on my busiest days and it [76:06] means that even when I'm pursuing all of [76:08] my professional goals my health goals [76:10] can be pursued at the same time there's [76:11] a link in the description below if [76:12] you've never tried heels rtds this is [76:14] the time if you're falling off with a [76:16] wagon this is the sign you needed to get [76:17] back on there's a link below in the [76:19] description order yourself a pack stay [76:21] healthy throughout this busy period [76:23] Daniel also opened my eyes to something [76:25] I had just before I spoke to Daniel I [76:26] had an issue with my feet I had what [76:29] they call is it planta fitis mhm I woke [76:31] up one day and I basically couldn't walk [76:33] because something in my foot had like [76:34] swollen up and then I Googled it and [76:36] they said it's plop fitis and the [76:38] hypothesis so I I was then given these [76:40] ins cels to kind of try and correct it [76:43] the hypothesis that I then later [76:45] discovered was that because my feet are [76:47] so weak because I walk around every day [76:49] in these like one-in cushion shoes that [76:51] we all do and there's this whole [76:53] industry about like heel size and how [76:55] that makes running and exercise and [76:57] comfort better and it's how it's better [76:58] for you or better for your knees when I [77:01] suddenly started exerting a lot of [77:02] effort onto my feet because I was [77:04] training for a big football match my [77:05] feet just gave away and that made me [77:07] start to believe that maybe I'm not [77:09] supposed to have these massive like 1 [77:12] inch 1 cm whatever heels soles that we [77:15] all have on our shoes imagine if from [77:18] the second a child was born we put a [77:20] glove on both of their hands that was 1 [77:22] cmet de side imagine how like weak and [77:26] pathetic their hands would be that's [77:27] essentially what we're doing to our feet [77:30] and so now I don't wear shoes that have [77:33] a like a like a soul I have barefoot [77:37] shoes yeah we're supposed to have a [77:39] certain amount of inputs strengthwise [77:41] and I think that we don't get those in a [77:46] lot of ways I mean it's not just it's [77:47] not just the shoes right it's also okay [77:50] well why does everyone's back hurt [77:52] because 80% of people people will [77:53] experience back payment some point in [77:55] their life and you go okay well you know [77:58] we all sit 8 hours a day and we're not [78:01] sitting like in the squatting position [78:03] like we used to we're sitting in these [78:05] chairs that are comfortable that take [78:07] the um physical work we used to have to [78:09] do just to keep our torso up off our [78:12] back and so then when we go to say Lift [78:15] something our back muscles are [78:16] exceedingly weak and something happens [78:19] and we get a problem right and you can [78:20] extend that to many different problems [78:23] like average pains that people have it's [78:25] usually because our environments are set [78:26] up to take the physical stress off our [78:29] bodies but we eventually end up paying a [78:31] price for that when we try and do [78:32] something out of that very small comfort [78:36] zone that we've built ourselves so in [78:37] the case of you it's you know you had [78:41] weakened your feet over time and then [78:43] you add uh load onto them and they're [78:46] not ready for that and that manifests [78:47] itself as pain for another person it [78:50] could be they sit at a desk all day and [78:52] they just decid you know I'm going to go [78:53] back into the gymm and they do one [78:55] deadlift and their back just goes what [78:58] are you doing and sends a bunch of pain [79:00] there and it's a lot of different things [79:01] shoulder shoulder pain a lot a lot of [79:03] different pains are just manifestations [79:05] of our modern environment and to avoid [79:07] those you said 80% of people will [79:09] experience back pain at some time yeah [79:10] it's the most common pain that people [79:11] will experience and it's also it has a [79:13] huge economic toll it's yeah it's pretty [79:15] crazy as soon as you said that my back [79:17] started to feel painful I don't yeah so [79:18] a very a very simple a very simple fix [79:21] is spending more time sitting on the [79:22] floor [79:23] having your back um having to prop it up [79:26] like I am now I'm not using the back [79:27] rest you know if I do this your back has [79:29] to do more work and even just that low [79:31] level of work across time can help [79:33] prevent some problems you said sitting [79:35] on the floor yep sitting on the floor [79:37] that helps with Mobility um when you're [79:38] sitting on the floor you don't have this [79:39] giant back rest that you can just melt [79:42] into your um your body has to do work to [79:45] keep yourself upright right and you're [79:47] probably going to get uncomfortable at [79:49] some point so you're going to shift [79:50] around you're going to put your hips [79:51] into different positions you're going to [79:52] put your legs in different positions um [79:55] it seems to help with mobility and with [79:57] pain over time what are that's really [79:59] useful because that's a small thing that [80:01] I can do to to reduce my chances of [80:04] being part of the 80% that will [80:06] experience back pain sitting on the [80:07] floor more often I can do that what are [80:09] the other small day-to-day decisions [80:12] that we could all make to give ourselves [80:15] a little bit of healthy discomfort in [80:16] our lives yeah so I I call this concept [80:19] being a two-center and um it comes from [80:22] a study that found that 2% of people [80:27] take the stairs when there is also an [80:29] escalator available [80:32] 2% now 100% of those people knew that [80:35] taking the stairs would give them a [80:38] long-term benefit on their health right [80:40] but only 2% taken and that's because [80:42] we're a species who's wired to do the [80:44] next comfortable thing even when it [80:46] doesn't make sense in our comfortable [80:48] environment so when I talk about being a [80:50] 2center I'm talking about taking the [80:52] acttion ual and the metaphorical stairs [80:54] when you can what are the small things [80:56] that you can do in daily life in order [80:59] to add more activity more discomfort [81:02] into your life in a way that is totally [81:04] manageable that adds up to a giant [81:06] return over time a giant return over [81:08] time taking the stairs a giant return [81:10] over time if you take the stairs every [81:12] single time I guarantee that you will [81:14] have better health than if you were to [81:16] take that escalator and if you apply [81:17] that across the board I mean something [81:19] as simple as okay I have a work phone [81:23] call I can sit in my office and take it [81:26] in this sort of you know dim office or I [81:29] can go take it while walking and I've [81:31] snuck in a mile and a half of walking oh [81:34] and by the way you know maybe next time [81:36] I'm going to throw on a 10 PB rock or a [81:39] 20 lb Ruck and I'm going to be rcking [81:41] while I take that phone call um I'm [81:43] going to park in the parking lot that is [81:46] like Siberia away from the grocery store [81:49] right and it sounds like people's like [81:51] people will say shrug their shoulders [81:52] yeah everyone knows that it's like okay [81:53] well why the hell doesn't anyone do it [81:55] because they don't believe it matters [81:56] because they don't believe it matters [81:58] and the problem is is that we look at [81:59] that act as just one individual act and [82:02] go okay well that might only burn five [82:03] more calories okay well what if you did [82:06] that 10 times a day and extrapolated it [82:09] over a lifetime I guarantee you will end [82:11] up healthier and better off than if you [82:13] consistently were doing the easier thing [82:15] so where can I find those little 2% wins [82:17] flow them into my life because once you [82:19] start doing it you realize like oh not [82:22] only is this very easy to do but I [82:24] actually feel better when I do this [82:25] stuff right you could carry your [82:27] groceries like a lot of back pain would [82:29] go away if people started carrying their [82:31] groceries more often I can guarantee [82:33] that but we don't do that and um so a [82:36] lot of my work and thinking is how do we [82:38] find those little winds across the day [82:40] and pile them up I'm not saying that [82:43] people should stop going to the gym and [82:45] doing their normal routine but I am [82:46] saying if you're looking at 24 hours in [82:50] a day and you are doing the next easiest [82:54] most comfortable most lazy thing for 23 [82:56] and 1/2 hours and you think that your 30 [82:58] minutes in the gym is going to recoup [83:01] that you're missing you're missing the [83:03] big picture that is not how humans are [83:05] designed to live I was thinking as you [83:07] were talking about how it compounds for [83:09] or against you as well so in the example [83:11] you gave about the taking the stairs [83:14] versus the escalator might burn five [83:15] calories and then you times that by 10 [83:17] you do it time you know then that's 50 [83:19] calories you're burning a day I was [83:21] thinking is there a pounding element to [83:23] this my brain decided there was because [83:26] if you take the stairs and you burn [83:29] calories and build up a little bit of [83:30] muscle you then have more muscle to do [83:33] more activities like that and I think I [83:35] think it was Daniel liberman that told [83:37] me about this concept of syence which is [83:39] almost this downward spiral of M muscle [83:41] Decay where you like lose muscle so you [83:44] you do less activity so you lose muscle [83:46] so you do less activity and that's the [83:48] spiral downward for a lot of people that [83:49] causes aging and death what we think of [83:51] aging and ultimately death um and that's [83:54] what I thought of in those small things [83:55] I thought like it is going to compound [83:57] for me if I do it more I'll be able to [83:59] do it more so I'll probably do it more [84:02] you know exactly no and you're [84:03] absolutely right and you know the [84:05] concept isn't even just physical it's [84:08] it's psychological it's being willing to [84:10] have the hard conversation you need to [84:11] have with um your spouse being you know [84:15] if you're working on a hard project our [84:17] tendency is when the hard project gets [84:19] hard what do we do we we check our cell [84:20] phone we go I'm going to get up and get [84:22] caught [84:23] being willing to go through put in that [84:24] extra little work to kind of push [84:26] through that thing that's just going to [84:27] be a little bit harder I think [84:29] ultimately leads to the biggest [84:30] transformation and breakthroughs I used [84:33] to think you could change your beliefs [84:35] you know and then I really got quite [84:38] obsessed with figuring out if you could [84:40] choose a different belief and I [84:42] concluded that you couldn't because [84:43] there's no belief in my life that I [84:44] genuinely believe that I now if my [84:46] family was held at gunpoint could [84:48] genuinely change I could lie but I [84:50] couldn't actually change the belief so I [84:51] thought what a beliefs and concluded [84:53] that they are essentially a stack of [84:55] evidence that we've accepted as [84:56] subjectively true and that is governing [84:58] Our Lives it's telling us who we are and [85:00] how we show up especially in situations [85:02] of discomfort it's the I remember I had [85:04] Chris Eubank Jr on the podcast and he's [85:06] like a world championship boxer and he [85:08] said to me if I'm home alone and I get [85:10] to mile 9 on the treadmill and I told [85:12] myself I was going to do 10 I will limp [85:15] um and I get cramp in my leg I have to [85:17] limp The Last Mile even if no one's [85:19] watching because quote I can't let the [85:21] demons in [85:23] what he's what he's saying there is I [85:24] can't let a new self story emerge that [85:28] I'm the type of person that quits when [85:30] it's hard because in round 12 of a [85:32] championship boxing fight that story [85:34] will emerge when I'm on the stool and I [85:35] want to quit this idea and it kind of [85:38] goes back to you're saying about the [85:38] stairs that all of these small things [85:41] are compounding psychologically to tell [85:43] us a story about who we are and our [85:44] relationship with discomfort and that [85:46] like you know the greatest way to [85:50] influence our self story is to start [85:53] keeping uncomfortable commitments with [85:55] ourselves and that will compound for us [85:57] over time yeah and then once you take [85:59] the stairs you you be like okay maybe I [86:01] could do that run that three mile run oh [86:04] now I'm doing five I think that you know [86:07] you're right about the stories we tell [86:09] ourselves and where they come from but [86:12] you can change the experiences that you [86:14] have right so your experiences will [86:16] change that set of beliefs it's like the [86:19] story I told about me spending the month [86:22] in the Arctic I didn't think I could [86:23] ever do that and I hadn't ever had any [86:28] reason to be that deeply appreciative of [86:32] the world today I had to go have this [86:35] experience that changed my perception [86:37] evidence right I could tell myself all [86:40] day yeah hot running water's great but [86:42] did I ever feel that emotionally like a [86:44] legit emotional connection and this like [86:46] oh my God like you peel the veil back no [86:48] I had to go do um I had to have an [86:50] experience outside of your comfort zone [86:52] outside of my comfort zone right an [86:53] experience that um was tough and [86:56] challenging and that is ultimately the [86:58] hero's journey that you see in you know [87:01] the work of Joseph Campbell analyzes all [87:03] these myths throughout time finds that [87:05] all cultures basically have the exact [87:07] same structure behind their myths and [87:09] that's that the hero gets called to [87:11] Adventure but by the way it's going to [87:13] be hard it's going to be challenging and [87:15] the person doesn't want to go right [87:17] there's always this phase where they go [87:18] I don't want to deal with this but if [87:20] they choose to accept that they're [87:23] always going to enter this Middle Ground [87:25] that's really trying that's really [87:26] challenging they're going to struggle [87:27] down there but in the struggle is where [87:28] you learn what you're capable of the [87:31] reality is is that humans are capable of [87:33] way more than we think but we don't get [87:36] thrust into positions to realize this [87:38] anymore and that is the teacher you have [87:41] to throw yourself into the abyss and you [87:43] get down there and you swim through the [87:45] fog and you figure out your and [87:48] then you come out the other side and go [87:49] oh I got more on board than I real [87:52] realized and that changes you [87:53] permanently changes what you're capable [87:54] of [87:55] forever and then if you're lucky you'll [87:57] get another Callo adventure and have [87:59] more problems in your life and get [88:00] another opportunity to iterate again and [88:02] you just keep peeling off layers peeling [88:04] off layers that's the human story of [88:06] improvement to me but most of us are [88:08] waiting for evidence to go on the [88:10] adventure we we don't realize that the [88:12] evidence will come from the adventure [88:15] right well I think that that's one way [88:17] that things have changed um in the past [88:20] humans used to have to do hard things [88:22] the time this could be from these big [88:24] hunts we used to have to go on it could [88:26] be that a storm rolls in and you're like [88:28] we need to get we need to get over this [88:30] mountain range in the next 24 hours or [88:33] else we're going to die and by the way [88:34] this mountain range is huge I don't know [88:36] if we can do it so we get Thrust out of [88:38] our comfort zone all the time and we [88:40] have these moments where we realize what [88:42] we're capable of because we go in there [88:44] we go I'm pretty sure we're going to die [88:45] Crossing this mountain range but we [88:46] don't die go oh wow I had way more on [88:48] board than I realized well that's [88:50] something and and that changes you it [88:53] shapes you it makes you realize what [88:54] you're capable of and life no longer [88:56] thrusts these things onto us anymore [88:58] right you can just kind of live in the [89:00] comfort zone now and it's nice it's [89:01] comfortable it's safe but you don't get [89:04] to go out on those edges and learn what [89:06] you're capable of and that ultimately I [89:08] think limits you over time so you're [89:10] telling everyone to quit their [89:13] jobs like you I'm telling everyone to [89:15] take uh two weeks off and go do [89:17] something totally kickass that will [89:19] change you forever because we can all do [89:21] that our relationship with uncertainty [89:23] though is at the very heart of this I [89:24] think because when people are thinking [89:26] about venturing off on that Adventure [89:28] leaving their job going and do something [89:30] new uncertainty seems to be this [89:33] headwind that holds Us in place and I [89:36] remember studying um the work that Uber [89:38] Labs had done so that's Uber the app the [89:41] food and um uh taxi app yeah they do [89:45] everything in their lab they'd figured [89:47] out that one of the worst parts of C any [89:48] customer experience was the feeling of [89:50] uncertainty so once upon a time you [89:51] called a taxi then you'd stand on the [89:53] side of the road and just be in total [89:55] uncertainty um so they factored in [89:57] factored that into the app by showing [89:58] you where the driver is and also we can [90:01] all [90:03] intuitively agree but also can recount [90:05] times where a plane was delayed and it [90:07] said delayed and the the feeling of the [90:09] uncertainty versus just saying delayed [90:11] two hours which I'd much rather prefer [90:13] at the heart of going on the adventures [90:14] of Our Lives Time Life times and [90:16] throwing ourselves into discomfort is [90:20] our our need for certainty [90:22] that holds like when I speak to people [90:24] on the streets or they DM me that is the [90:26] conundrum that they face is I don't know [90:29] what the future holds if I go off on [90:32] that Adventure so I'd rather just stay [90:33] in certain misery than than have to [90:36] endure the uncertainty that that Journey [90:38] might you know bring my way yeah I we [90:41] don't like uncertainty but there's uh as [90:44] I was reporting the scarcity brain I I [90:48] ended up reading a lot of strange old [90:51] texts [90:52] text and I read this uh the writings of [90:56] this monk who lived in silence in a cave [91:01] in the 1800s in France um he wrote uh he [91:05] published his journals he didn't use his [91:07] name because he didn't want any Fame he [91:08] didn't want anyone to know and there's [91:10] this quote in the book that goes you [91:15] risk so much hesitating to fling [91:17] yourself into the abyss that is the damn [91:20] truth especially in the context of today [91:23] what's the worst that could happen [91:25] you're not going to die even if you lose [91:28] everything you own we've got a lot of [91:30] safety nets today and do you think [91:31] you're a relatively intelligent person [91:34] have you figured it out in the past well [91:35] you can probably figure it out again and [91:38] if you're not willing to embrace that [91:40] uncertainty that is actually a feature [91:42] not a bug because that uncertainty gives [91:45] you [91:46] opportunities if you're certain what [91:48] you're going to get well that's not any [91:49] damn exciting right I mean you it's not [91:52] exciting that's what you talk about in [91:53] the scarcity brain yeah unpredictability [91:56] is exciting it's captivating and so yeah [91:58] the outcome could be bad but it could [92:00] also be really really good way better [92:02] than you thought but and by not taking [92:04] that gamble you're kind of sitting on [92:06] the sidelines oh so chapter nine of [92:10] scarcity brain you talk about something [92:12] that I joked about for many years as a [92:15] marketeer I went around telling CMOS [92:17] around the world and CEOs that if you [92:19] want your people your team members to do [92:21] the very best work of their lives and [92:22] the most specifically the most [92:23] Innovative and creative work of their [92:25] lives withhold budgets and I say this [92:29] because my first company was called [92:31] wallpark [92:33] and it was only when we ran out of [92:37] money that's that we did our best work [92:40] because we had no choice so we I I don't [92:42] know I had like 6,000 as a marketing [92:43] budget or something and then I remember [92:45] being sat there with with my two buddies [92:48] who were building the business with me [92:49] Ash and Dom and we ran out of money and [92:52] from that came an idea that would help [92:55] me to build a company that was worth [92:56] several hundreds of millions of dollars [92:58] it was [92:59] in having less resources that we were [93:03] forced to do the most creative best work [93:04] of our lives and it drove us to First [93:07] principles and that's what I read when [93:08] you were talking about this study at the [93:10] University of Illinois um and John John [93:13] Hopkins that's kind of what I I thought [93:16] ah it's true yeah people [93:19] people become more creative we try to [93:23] innovate when resources are scarce when [93:26] we have a bunch of resources what we do [93:28] is we kind of do whatever everyone else [93:30] is doing and so I think that um when you [93:33] look at humans we're sort of designed to [93:36] add our default is to add more to do [93:39] more to whatever and we often look for [93:42] the sort of easy way out when you remove [93:45] resources so we're not able to do that [93:48] in the same way that kind of everyone [93:49] else is I think we get forced into [93:51] Innovation and creativity so are we lazy [93:54] are abundant humans [93:55] lazy [93:57] um I don't love the L word don't worry I [94:00] said it you didn't say it then I'll go [94:03] then I will agree with [94:04] you I think that look I think that we [94:06] are designed to kind of do the easy [94:08] thing I think that having to come up [94:10] with a crazy idea it takes work and [94:13] maybe we don't do that if we have the [94:15] resources to just throw money at the [94:16] problem and this kind of explains why [94:18] companies as they get bigger although [94:20] they have more intellectual Capital they [94:22] have more brains in their offices they [94:24] seem to become less Innovative also it [94:26] speaks to the whole loss aversion thing [94:28] but they they tend to probably default [94:30] to Convention and obvious I think you [94:32] want to be light you want to be fast you [94:35] want to be able to you have it sounds [94:38] counterintuitive but it's almost like [94:39] you have more options when you're [94:41] smaller right when you have less because [94:43] you could like the world is open we got [94:45] to figure this out and there's all these [94:47] things that no one else is saying [94:48] because we're just forced to make a [94:50] decision given this small budget that we [94:52] have and that study at the University of [94:54] Illinois and John Hopkins um you talk [94:56] about these Six studies where [94:57] participants who faced scarce resources [95:00] performed better yeah in what way they [95:03] came up with ideas that were more [95:06] Innovative they used less [95:09] resources interesting yeah so when they [95:12] had less resources they actually used [95:14] less resources yeah and their ideas were [95:16] better [95:17] yep interesting it also kind of explains [95:20] why being an underdog and holding on to [95:22] that mentality regardless of your [95:23] success is probably a good thing it's [95:26] like a psychological state of we're not [95:28] there yet I say this to my teams all the [95:29] time about our biggest risk now is like [95:32] thinking you've made it yeah because you [95:34] can let off the gas when you've made it [95:36] and you can just be complacent you have [95:38] more resources you can do the obvious [95:39] stuff you can do what got you here less [95:41] incentive to innovate and try new things [95:43] why would we we're doing well yeah so [95:46] for I mean for you guys it might be okay [95:49] we know this stuff has worked in the [95:50] past [95:51] at a certain point we have to realize [95:53] that it's not always going to work so [95:55] how are we devoting um time to figuring [95:59] out these things that people are [96:00] overlooking that might benefit from [96:03] fewer resources right maybe it's like [96:06] exercises where one day every month [96:09] you're going if we had X budget what [96:12] would we do now it's kind of different [96:14] because in the back of their minds [96:15] people are going yeah but we got plenty [96:18] of money MH um but I think trying to [96:20] figure out okay what would we do if we [96:21] have this budget could be a good [96:23] exercise to kind of keep lean and be [96:25] able to try stuff the saddest line in [96:27] your book was the line that we are [96:29] experiencing a rising tide of global [96:32] sadness chapter TW [96:34] 11 how do you how do you quantify that [96:37] rise in global sadness that's just based [96:39] on some research that's out there um the [96:42] United States is definitely has become [96:44] unhappier over the years and I think [96:46] you're seeing this in a lot of other [96:47] developed Nations too and yeah it is it [96:51] those a little bit sad usage of the word [96:54] love hared between n 1965 and [96:58] 2015 in in songs yeah so in yeah there [97:01] are some researchers that analyzed a [97:03] bunch of lyrics in songs that had come [97:05] out from the 60s to what was the year n [97:09] 1965 to 2015 yep and they found that the [97:12] word love nice positive words um haved [97:17] and negative words like hate increased [97:20] Jesus yeah and Global unhappiness hit a [97:23] record high this is the stat I was [97:24] looking for Global unhappiness hit a [97:26] record high in [97:28] 2021 um according to a source so [97:31] interesting what is the what is the [97:33] antidote then bringing it right back [97:35] down to you know the individual level MH [97:39] the two become a 2% person right right [97:42] but when I have this ancient Hardware [97:44] that's given me this scarcity brain what [97:46] can I do how can I take back control of [97:49] my life and live my life more aligned [97:51] with with my long-term goals and dreams [97:53] we live in a world where you know [97:55] there's a million things we're told we [97:56] need to do to be happy it's like you got [97:58] to do this you got to do that and [97:59] there's all this research about it but I [98:00] think that really when you look at what [98:02] makes people happy it's when they [98:04] accomplish things that weren't always [98:06] easy now that could be from like I [98:09] mentioned before like you spend this [98:11] time alone and get to know yourself [98:12] better like that's not that's not always [98:14] easy but you come out on the other side [98:16] of that better I think it's being [98:17] willing to do things that are ultim [98:21] going to be uncomfortable they're going [98:22] to be hard and being okay with that in [98:26] fact embracing that journey is the human [98:29] story to me and I think that as the [98:31] world has gotten um easier more [98:35] comfortable safer in a lot of ways and [98:37] we have this default to just kind of sit [98:40] there in that zone I don't think that's [98:42] necessarily become good for us and that [98:45] could be you can apply that to all [98:47] different things I mean it's that [98:48] literal and metaphorical taking of the [98:50] stairs could be okay if I feel like I'm [98:54] lonely well I can sit here and be lonely [98:57] or I can join I don't know a softball [99:00] team or a cricket [99:02] team um and yeah it's going to be [99:05] awkward when I meet these new people do [99:08] I think it's going to be easy no but [99:11] that could enhance my life and you can [99:12] apply that to everything I think it's [99:14] being willing like that that monk wrote [99:18] to throw yourself into the abyss and [99:20] have a human experience because life is [99:22] not supposed to be easy all the time and [99:24] in fact if it is people tend to go a [99:26] little bit nuts and get unhappy and so [99:30] pushing against that I think is a good [99:31] thing overall for people you must now [99:34] look at the world having studied all of [99:35] these things and especially living in [99:37] Vegas and seeing those gas stations and [99:39] that have the roulette machines in [99:42] them do you think that corporations and [99:46] uh these businesses are like a little [99:48] bit evil a little bit morally bankrupt [99:51] well this gets into this larger question [99:54] um so what we have to realize is that a [99:57] lot of these behaviors are fun and [99:59] rewarding in the short term so take I [100:02] don't know Tik Tok feeding you the exact [100:04] algorithm that's going to capture your [100:06] attention that is fun and rewarding okay [100:09] and so if you were to say well you need [100:11] to stop doing that then the response [100:13] from Tik Tok would be okay so you're [100:15] telling us to basically give people [100:16] boring content that they don't want as [100:18] much do we want to live in that world [100:21] I don't think so should slot machines be [100:24] less fun should it be less fun to watch [100:27] YouTube should Netflix design itself to [100:29] be boring what my message really is is [100:32] that I'm not saying don't ever do these [100:35] things but I think we need to realize [100:37] that we often times fall into these [100:39] behaviors for reasons we're not entirely [100:41] aware of so if you're the if you want to [100:43] spend 15 hours a day on Tik Tok hell [100:46] yeah go for it but I want you to make [100:48] that decision consciously and I think [100:50] today [100:52] they a lot of Corporations know the [100:54] decision is not being made consciously [100:56] that's the reality but at the same time [100:58] I don't know if the antidote is going to [101:00] be leave us any better because then we [101:03] start regulating everything and I don't [101:04] think we want that so really what I want [101:05] to do is Empower people to realize you [101:08] have the capacity to make choice I want [101:09] you to be more aware of why you're doing [101:11] what you're doing because ultimately [101:13] that is where Freedom lies like if we [101:16] start punishing corporations it's like [101:18] you're treating the public like children [101:21] and I was going to say the one ethical [101:22] Casino would just go bankrupt right and [101:25] it wouldn't exist but I think about that [101:26] throughout Society the one social [101:28] platform that didn't play to our [101:30] scarcity brain would not exist it [101:32] wouldn't have users so it just would it [101:34] would become extinct so and then also if [101:37] you think about it on like a [101:38] geographical um on a global scale if we [101:41] just banned it in the United States or [101:43] the UK a lot of the Innovation and [101:45] opportunity just moves off to China or [101:47] to some other place where they [101:48] capitalize on the scarcity brain yeah so [101:50] it's all about being being conscious [101:51] intentional and that starts with exactly [101:53] what you've done in your book really [101:54] which is starts with [101:56] awareness and that's why your book is so [101:58] brilliant both of the books are [101:59] fantastic the Comfort crisis is superb [102:01] and as I said to you before we started [102:02] recording I had so many people come on [102:03] the podcast and quote things from the [102:06] book but then also this term the Comfort [102:08] crisis I've had over and over and over [102:10] again and that comes back to you you [102:14] said something to me before we started [102:15] recording that the sales of this book [102:16] have increased since um publication it's [102:21] not typical yeah they've increased over [102:23] time we're selling more every week now [102:26] two and a half three years later than we [102:28] were yeah because right when it came out [102:31] people can relate to the symptoms I [102:32] guess yeah I think it's just a word of [102:34] mouth thing I think that people read it [102:36] and they relate to it and if they pick [102:39] up some of the you know suggestions from [102:43] the book I think it changes them for the [102:45] better you know I've had a lot of people [102:46] that have really changed their life from [102:48] the book and I told you before we [102:50] started recording that when I do this [102:51] podcast I make notes beforehand and I [102:53] don't think I've ever made more notes [102:55] than I did reading these two books [102:57] because it's all subject matter that I'm [102:59] absolutely obsessed with so the scarcity [103:01] brain which is the newer book says fix [103:03] your craving mindset and rewire your [103:04] habits to thrive with enough um superb [103:10] superb I'll link both of them in the [103:12] description below so if anybody wants to [103:14] get the books and understand why I was [103:15] so passionate about having this [103:17] conversation today but why I love these [103:18] books so much you'll find them in the [103:19] description below we have a closing [103:21] tradition on this podcast where the last [103:23] guest leaves a question for the next [103:24] guest not knowing who they're going to [103:26] be leaving it [103:27] for and the question that's been [103:30] left for you is what makes you [103:34] happiest uh what makes me happiest [103:38] is probably when I am in my office and [103:44] it is 5: in the morning and my dog is [103:47] there sleeping and I am writing and it [103:51] is absolute hell and then bam the line [103:54] comes in and I go that is how it all [103:56] fits together the puzzle piece is [103:58] suddenly merge and I'm just like totally [104:00] present aware and the words come and [104:04] also knowing that once I get through [104:06] with that writing I'm going to be able [104:07] to hang out with my wife who is my [104:09] favorite person she's the one for me and [104:13] it's that it's very simple thank you so [104:17] much Michael really appreciate the [104:18] conversation and I feel smarter having [104:21] spoke to you I will quote you for many [104:24] many conversations I know going forward [104:25] because as I said this is the subject's [104:27] matter that I'm obsessed with at the [104:28] moment so thank you for um thank you for [104:31] giving this message to the world I think [104:33] it's a message that can save us in a lot [104:36] of ways that we need to be saved that [104:38] that's the TD of what I think about this [104:40] and all the indicators say that if there [104:42] was ever a time where we needed to [104:43] understand how our brain is working and [104:46] being taken advantage of so we can take [104:47] back control but also the importance of [104:49] discomfort it is is now CU things are [104:51] only going to get easier yeah and more [104:53] comfortable thank you I appreciate you [104:55] having me on man it was really fun enjoy [104:57] the conversation I appreciate you uh [104:59] talking about the books yeah getting [105:00] them out in the world and having your [105:01] stamp of approval is awesome so [105:04] [Music] [105:06] thanks quick one we are working with an [105:09] exciting new sponsor on this podcast [105:11] Shopify I'm sure you guys have heard of [105:13] Shopify if you haven't been living under [105:15] a rock but for those that don't know [105:17] Shopify is a Commerce platform [105:18] revolutionizing millions of businesses [105:20] worldwide it is pretty incredible they [105:23] provide everything you need to start [105:24] your business and it's super simple to [105:26] get started and to get your business out [105:28] there here at the D CEO we've used [105:30] Shopify for a variety of our different [105:32] product drops the latest being the [105:33] conversation cards and without the help [105:35] of Shopify that wouldn't have been [105:37] possible it's mine and my team's go-to [105:40] website for all things Commerce related [105:42] so I'm giving you guys the chance to [105:44] trial Shopify for $1 that's right $1 [105:49] sign up for for a $1 trial for a month [105:53] by searching shopify.com [105:56] Bartlet all lowercase keep it to [105:59] yourself and let me know how you get on [106:02] do you need a podcast to listen to next [106:04] we've discovered that people who liked [106:06] this episode also tend to absolutely [106:09] love another recent episode we've done [106:11] so I've linked that episode in the [106:13] description below I know you'll enjoy [106:19] it [106:21] [Music] [106:24] ah