Neuroscientist Tali Sharot Details How Habituation Saps Joy and Drives Risk

神经科学家 Tali Sharot 详解习惯化如何消磨快乐并助长风险 间歇性的暂停与新颖体验可重置大脑的神经适应，从而提升职业、人际关系及日常生活中的长期满足感。 神经科学家 Tali Sharot 博士解释了神经习惯化如何促使大脑适应恒定刺激，在削弱长期人际关系、职业生涯和良好日常习惯所带来的快乐的同时，让我们对持续存在的负面状况视而不见。为应对这种停滞状态，她强调必须引入策略性的多样化尝试、阶段性暂停以及新奇体验，以重置情绪基线。对话还详细探讨了实用的行为策略，涵盖多巴胺预测误差、真相错觉效应、社交媒体对生活满意度的影响，以及如何建立可持续的长期目标。 神经习惯化使大脑对恒定刺激逐渐钝化，从而削弱正面体验带来的快乐；研究显示度假的快乐峰值往往出现在第 43 小时（与众多“初次”体验直接挂钩），因此多次短途旅行通常比单次长假带来更高的总幸福感。 (16:48) 短暂的身体分离与共同尝试新鲜事物是打破亲密关系习惯化、重燃性欲的关键机制，印证了快乐本质上源于欲望的不完全与间歇性满足。 (19:09) 人的主观幸福感呈 U 型曲线分布，在中年时期因密集的生活压力与职业成长停滞降至低谷，而在晚年则因生活方式转变重获自主性与新奇感而显著回升。 (29:16) 习惯化遵循不对称法则：对待积极体验应主动拆分并增加多样性以延长愉悦感，而对繁琐痛苦的负面任务则应“一口气集中完成”，利用连续暴露触发的习惯化来降低痛苦程度。 (55:26)

Neuroscientist Dr. Tali Sharot argues that the brain's tendency toward habituation steadily diminishes our appreciation for positive experiences while blinding us to persistent negative conditions. To sustain happiness and performance, individuals must strategically introduce novelty into positive routines while handling unpleasant obligations continuously without interruption. Neural Habituation and the Double-Edged Nature of Adaptation (0:00) When sensory or emotional input stays constant, neurons naturally reduce their firing rates to conserve metabolic energy for novel opportunities and threats. This adaptation, historically illustrated by Troxler's fading where static visual input completely disappears from perception, exerts a dual psychological effect. While it helps individuals recover from traumatic events, it causes enduring joys like marriages, stable careers, and vacations to lose their emotional punch. On vacations, for instance, resort data shows subjective enjoyment peaks around 43 hours in—most often tied to "firsts"—before steadily tapering off. Conversely, habituation blinds people to slowly accumulating negative stimuli, such as subtle relationship friction or systemic workplace flaws, much like an unnoticed air conditioner hum. Slower habituators show higher real-world creativity because they retain seemingly mundane information longer, allowing disparate concepts to combine into novel solutions. In contrast, those with depression habituate to negative outcomes far slower due to rumination, remaining in negative emotional states long after adverse events conclude. Strategic Asymmetry for Positive and Negative Routines (55:26) Sharot outlines an asymmetric approach to managing routine: dehabituate positive experiences by inserting pauses and variety, but swallow negative tasks whole. Interrupting enjoyable activities resets the brain's adaptation baseline, which is why clinical subjects who listen to songs with brief pauses or receive massages with breaks report higher overall pleasure and willingness to pay. In long-term romantic relationships, temporary absences and novel joint activities reignite desire by shifting cognitive attention back onto a partner, echoing Tibor Scitovsky's principle that pleasure requires intermittent satisfaction. In contrast, introducing variety or taking breathers during unpleasant obligations—such as doing taxes, chores, or grading—prolongs overall suffering because each pause resets habituation, forcing the brain to experience the negative shock repeatedly. Unpleasant tasks should be performed in single, uninterrupted sessions so the nervous system can adapt to the discomfort and mute the negative emotional response. Expectation Biases, Fluency, and Cognitive Distortions (50:58) Habituation and processing mechanics strongly skew subjective judgment. Under the illusory truth effect, repeating a claim even twice increases its perceived accuracy because lower cognitive friction produces a familiarity signal that the brain interprets as truth. Visual ease, such as rendering text in large bold or high-contrast red fonts, similarly increases believability. In terms of well-being, internal expectations determine dopamine firing: bursts occur when outcomes exceed expectations, while dips follow underperformance. Social media distorts this baseline by exposing users to curated highlight reels, artificially raising personal expectations and making normal life feel restrictive. Sharot highlights Hunt Allcott's study where participants paid $100 to deactivate Facebook for a month experienced substantial reductions in depression and anxiety—a well-being increase Bartlett notes is comparable to a $30,000 raise. However, most subjects immediately resumed usage, driven by an innate compulsion for information and addictive behavioral loops. Habituation in Behavioral Change, Risk, and Life Transitions Traditional goal-setting frequently collapses due to temporal discounting: effort costs are felt immediately, whereas rewards are deferred. Sharot advocates bridging this temporal gap by attaching immediate rewards to necessary actions, leveraging social proof, and tracking visual markers of progress, while warning that fear-based messaging often leads to defensive rationalization rather than change. Midlife crises similarly reflect a habituation plateau during the 40s and 50s, when career learning curves flatten and routine sets in before retirement forces a rebound in novelty and agency. Repeated exposure also dampens perceived danger, functioning as a hazard in high-risk professions. In virtual reality skyscraper experiments, participants who initially tread cautiously on a suspended plank eventually habituate to fear and jump off to regain arousal. This desensitization explains why workplace accidents in construction and severe sports injuries disproportionately spike late in projects or careers, as diminishing fear causes individuals to drop their guard. A central unresolved paradox is why individuals systematically return to habituated, distress-inducing habits like social media despite recognizing measurable gains in happiness when abstaining. Sharot emphasizes that sustaining life satisfaction requires treating existence as an ongoing "experiment in living," deliberately stepping away from routine elements to determine whether they truly add value or merely impose invisible, persistent stress.

神经科学家Tali Sharot博士指出，人类大脑存在固有的“习惯化”机制，这一适应功能虽然帮助神经元节省能量，却会导致人们对长期的美好事物逐渐麻木，同时钝化对负面环境的感知。 习惯化的神经机制与双刃剑效应 (8:27) 习惯化是指当外界感觉或情绪刺激保持恒定时，神经元会逐渐降低放电率以节省代谢能量，并为潜在的新威胁或机遇腾出处理容量。1804年发现的“特克斯勒消退”（Troxler's fading）错觉直观展示了这一过程：当视线固定在中心点时，周围静态的颜色会逐渐褪为白色。在心理层面，习惯化具有明显的双刃剑特征：它能促使人们从逆境和重大负面事件中逐步恢复，形成心理韧性；然而研究也显示，抑郁症患者往往因为反复反刍负面经历，其习惯化过程显著慢于非抑郁人群。此外，习惯化会侵蚀长期积极体验带来的快乐感，甚至让人对职场低效、人际毒性关系等系统性弊端视而不见。 打破浪漫关系与度假生活中的麻木感 (16:48) 在日常生活中，持续不断的接触会带来递减的心理回报。针对度假满意度的调查显示，游客的幸福感峰值通常出现在行程开始约43小时左右，此时被提及最多的词汇是“第一次”（如第一眼看海、第一杯鸡尾酒），此后随着刺激变得熟悉，快乐感便自然下滑。Sharot因此探讨了用更频繁的短途周末出行替代偶发长假的可行性，以此维持更多的新鲜感峰值和期待感。 在伴侣关系与性生活中，类似的习惯化同样存在。经济学家Tibor Scitovsky曾指出，快乐源于欲望得到不完全且断续的满足；研究亦表明，短期物理空间的分隔或短暂独处能重新调动大脑认知注意力，并在重聚时有效唤起对伴侣的欲望。就像实验中每天吃芝士通心粉的受试者会迅速丧失食欲，而每周吃一次者能长久享受一样，伴侣间采取适度留白以及共同探索新环境，能有效逆转熟悉感带来的枯燥。 职场动机、非对称任务应对与认知流利度 (55:26) 长期重复不变的工作会削弱神经编码并引发职业倦怠。为了维持工作动力，组织需要确保个体具备自主掌控权、清晰的意义感以及持续的学习曲线。实验证明，相比于毫无波动的静态规则，人们更偏好带有适度不确定性和成长空间的任务，甚至在无聊与轻微电击之间有人会选择电击来获取刺激。值得注意的是，生理唤醒测定显示对刺激习惯化较慢的人往往具备更高的创造力产出，因为他们的大脑保留了更多看似琐碎的跨界信息并最终碰撞出创新灵感。 在生活管理策略上，Sharot提出了“习惯化的非对称规则”：对于积极体验，应当人为引入停顿与多样性，例如在听歌或按摩中加入间歇，以重置神经适应；但面对报税、家务或商务差旅等不可避免的痛苦任务，切忌频繁中断，而是应该“一口吞下”，借助大脑对恒定负面刺激的钝化来降低综合痛苦感。此外，认知流利度机制表明，信息即便仅重复两次也会触发大脑的“虚假真实效应”（illusory truth effect），因为熟悉的表述处理起来消耗能量极少，潜意识会直接将其标记为可信。 社交媒体诱发的预期落差与习惯性脱敏风险 (59:57) 社交媒体通过持续展示他人生活的高光时刻，无形中推高了个体的参照基准与适应水平。根据多巴胺神经元的预测误差机制，当现实结果低于心理预期时，多巴胺分泌会骤降至基线以下并引发抑郁情绪，正如囚犯在临近释放前夕幸福感反而暴跌一样。经济学家Hunt Allcott的研究表明，受试者在停用Facebook一个月后，各项心理健康指标显著改善，其主观幸福感提升甚至相当于年薪增加3万美元；历史数据模型也估算社交媒体可能对现代人群25%的心理健康下滑负有责任。 在风险决策领域，习惯化同样暗藏危机。VR高空独木桥实验证明，受试者在重复数次后皮肤电导反应所代表的恐惧感显著消退，甚至为了重新体验刺激而选择跳下虚构平台。在建筑工程或竞技体育中，资深从业者在项目尾声或职业晚期常发生严重事故，本质上都是因为环境脱敏后警惕心下降、行为风险逐步升级所致。 Sharot强调，当人们对生活或工作感到索然无味时，往往并非生活本身存在根本性缺陷，而是大脑机制使然。通过主动开展“生活实验”——例如暂时切除潜在背景压力源，或在原有轨道上横向拓展新技能与空间——个体才能重新校准基准线并看清既有价值。

## Background 本期内容由知名播客频道 The Diary Of A CEO（由 Steven Bartlett 主持）于 2023 年 11 月 16 日发布在 YouTube 平台。节目围绕神经科学家塔莉·沙罗特博士（Dr. Tali Sharot）的新研究展开，深入剖析了人类在生活、工作以及亲密关系中逐渐感到枯燥乏味的根本原因，并结合其新书《Look Again》探讨重获新鲜感与幸福感的有效策略。 ## TL;DR 本期访谈核心围绕大脑的“习惯化”（Habituation）神经机制展开，解释了为何恒定不变的刺激会导致神经元放电减弱，从而让我们对伴侣、工作和优渥生活逐渐麻木。沙罗特博士结合度假峰值、特克斯勒消逝效应等实验，揭示了“间歇打断”对重塑快感的重要价值，提出积极体验要“切碎享用”、消极杂务要“一口吞下”的应对准则。此外，对话还深入探讨了中年危机的本质、社交媒体对心理健康的侵蚀机制，以及如何通过降低摩擦阻力与捆绑即时奖励来达成长期自律。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话兼具学术前沿的严谨性与直击现实的洞察力，沙罗特博士将枯燥的神经生物学机制转化为生动直观的生活实验，娓娓道来；主持人史蒂文则频频结合自身商业管理与个人生活的切身体会展开追问，互动默契且充满启发。从直面人际麻木与中年低谷的冷峻剖析，到探索重获新鲜感与意义感的方法，叙事节奏层层递进，给人一种既被科学真相无情戳中、又获得实操解药的明朗与释然感。 ## Bulletin - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=0s) 度假研究显示人类的愉悦感峰值精准出现在抵达后的第 43 个小时，核心关键词是“初次”；随后大脑神经元因恒定刺激启动习惯化（Habituation）节省能量，导致幸福感递减。 - [57:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3478s) 积极体验与消极体验的应对策略截然相反：好事情需要主动切碎打散以阻断习惯化衰减，而枯燥或痛苦的事务则需一口吞下、一气呵成以促成神经钝化。 - [01:26:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=5167s) 随机对照实验证实，戒断 Facebook 一个月能全方位改善心理健康指标，其效用相当于职场获得 30,000 美元的加薪，但人类对信息的底层饥渴常诱发复吸。 - [45:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2713s) 人在生理上对刺激习惯化越慢，现实中的创造力往往越高；杂乱琐碎的未过滤信息在脑中持续发酵，极易促成颠覆性的跨学科创新与顿悟时刻。 ## Key takeaways - [10:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=604s) 习惯化（Habituation）是大脑为了节约有限生理能量而对恒定刺激减少响应的演化机制，它不仅让人对美好事物麻木，还会让人对恶劣环境与不公视若无睹。 - [02:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=133s) 行为改变的科学第一步并非清点缺点自责，而是立足自身已具备的优势资产，并通过在大脑中具体生动地预演行动路径来增强可行性信念。 - [08:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=507s) 特克斯勒消逝效应（Troxler's fading）揭示了感知本质：当眼球绝对静止时色彩会完全消失，而微小的动态扰动能瞬间重新唤醒大脑感知。 - [13:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=780s) 反直觉的体验优化策略：在音乐欣赏或全身按摩中强行插入间歇或空白，能阻断神经适应，让随后的愉悦感攀上更高峰值。 - [20:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1211s) 亲密关系与性生活的保鲜需要健康的短暂分离与空间感，快乐源自对欲望不完全且间歇性的满足，适度抽离能重置彼此的神经吸引力阈值。 - [30:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1856s) 中年危机具有扎实的心理与流行病学证据，其根源不仅在于上有老下有小的现实重压，更在于技能成长停滞并陷入缺乏新鲜感的刻板常规中。 - [36:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2213s) 抑郁症的核心神经特征并非对痛苦过度敏感，而是习惯化速度极其迟缓，深陷“反刍（Rumination）”思维阻碍了心理弹性的自动修复。 - [42:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2560s) 人类极度厌恶纯粹的无聊，在实验中受试者宁可承受肉体电击也不愿忍受虚无；激发团队自驱力需要维持前进动力、适度挑战与主观意义感构成的甜蜜点。 - [50:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3056s) 真相错觉效应（Illusory Truth Effect）说明重复信息能大幅降低大脑的认知加工负荷，大脑常将低阻力的熟悉感直接误判为客观事实。 - [01:00:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3638s) 社交媒体通过展示他人高光时刻拉高了大众的预期基准线，多巴胺神经元对“现实低于预期”的预测误差静默会导致强烈的挫败与失望感。 - [01:06:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3977s) 克服当下偏差与即时成本的核心方法是“弥合时间差”，通过将长远目标与跑步时听播客等即时回报捆绑，或借助社会契约人为增加违约成本以驱动自律。 - [01:12:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=4361s) 职场离职很多时候源于深层“工作意义感的枯竭”，但当事人常误将其归咎于办公环境、琐事等显性表象。 - [01:20:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=4855s) 情绪对风险同样存在习惯化（Risk Habituation），长期的风险适应会降低焦虑并削弱刺激感，诱导老手和投资者在没有负面反馈时不断升级放纵行为直至触礁。 - [01:24:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=5074s) 环境的慢性伤害往往如空调白噪音般被大脑自动过滤，唯有通过主动戒断的“生活实验”，才能真正看清消耗心理健康的隐性毒瘤。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=0s) 习惯化陷阱：大脑为何会停止对美好的事物产生反应 本期节目开头抛出了一个深刻影响所有人生活、伴侣关系与工作动力的心理学机制——“习惯化”（Habituation）。神经科学家兼畅销书作者塔莉·沙罗特博士（Dr. Tali Sharot）指出，许多人在生活中渐渐感到麻木与乏味，却对背后的神经生理原因毫无察觉。一项关于度假体验的研究显示，人们在度假中最快乐的峰值出现在出发后的第 43 个小时，而在描述最开心的瞬间时，受访者最常使用的词汇是“第一次”（First）——第一次看到大海、喝下第一杯鸡尾酒。然而在此之后，幸福感便一路下滑。 究其根源，是大脑神经元接收到的刺激变成了恒定输入。当周围事物缺乏变化时，大脑就会停止对其产生反应。这一机制导致了一个残酷的现实：即便你过着极其优渥的生活，拥有美满的关系、体面的工作和舒适的住所，久而久之这些美好也不再能带来应有的快乐，因为“当某样东西一直摆在你面前时，你就彻底不再关注它了”。更糟糕的是，习惯化同样会掩盖负面问题，例如职场中的性别歧视、种族主义，或是伴侣关系中的裂痕，当我们对它们习以为常并不再察觉时，也就失去了做出改变的机会。中年危机中幸福感走低，核心原因正是生活被日复一日的惯常琐事所填满。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 习惯化如何降低大脑的幸福感 accDescr: 展示恒定刺激如何导致神经元反应减弱并引发生活麻木的流程图 subgraph S1["恒定刺激输入"] A["面对持续不变的事物<br>(舒适生活/稳定工作/常规关系)"] end subgraph S2["神经系统适应"] B["神经元接收恒定信号<br>输入缺乏新颖变化"] C["大脑主动节省能量<br>神经元反应逐渐减弱或停止"] end subgraph S3["心理与行为后果"] D["感知麻木与脱敏<br>(失去对美好的欣喜感)"] E["忽视潜在危机<br>(对裂痕与不公视而不见)"] end A --> B B --> C C --> D C --> E ``` - **度假幸福峰值**：研究表明，度假中最享受的时刻出现在开始后的第 43 个小时，核心关键词是“第一次”。 - **神经元节省机制**：神经元停止对重复、恒定的信息做出强烈放电反应，转而将认知资源留给潜在的新刺激。 - **负面习惯化的代价**：除了美好感觉褪色，长期的习惯化还会让人对不公与矛盾视若无睹，阻碍纠错行为。 --- ### [02:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=133s) 行为改变的起点：立足优势与具象化计划 主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）随后正式欢迎塔莉·沙罗特博士回归播客，并请她概述自己的研究背景与使命。沙罗特博士解释，她的工作涵盖神经科学、心理学以及行为经济学，旨在通过窥探大脑内部机制与研究人类行为模式，探究人为何会做出某些选择以及为何会产生特定情绪，最终帮助人们优化决策并改善现实生活。 当被问及如果一个人希望摆脱现状、成为一个截然不同的自己，第一步是否是“提高自我觉察”时，沙罗特博士纠正了一个常见的误区：人们往往只聚焦于“自己缺乏什么”或“自己想成为但目前还不是什么”。真正的第一步应当是发掘并聚焦于“自身已经具备的优秀特质”。无论是现有的专业技能还是性格优势，都是可以作为支点去构建新自我的基础资产。在此之后，设定清晰具体的行动路径至关重要；当我们能够具体、生动地在大脑中预演实现目标的详细步骤时，大脑对“这件事情有很大可能发生”的信念感就会倍增，进而大幅提升真正付诸行动并坚持下去的概率。 - **跨学科研究视角**：结合脑成像神经科学、实验心理学与经济学动机理论，从生理与认知双重层面解析人类选择。 - **正向认知重构**：改变习惯的第一步不是纠错和自责，而是清点已有的长处与优势技能。 - **生动具象化效应**：详细推演步骤能增强主观可行性信念，信念越强，后续行动执行力越高。 --- ### [05:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=314s) 进步的激励力量与职场多样性 沙罗特博士强调，在追求目标的过程中，最关键的心理驱动力来自“看见自身的进步”。如果有人去健身房锻炼，第一周只去了一次，第二周去了两次；或者刚开始在跑步机上只能跑 10 分钟，下一次能坚持 20 分钟，把这些数字明确记录下来并直观展现，能产生极强的自我激励作用。科学研究完全证实了这一点：在规则学习与金钱奖励的实验中，受试者在获得奖金时固然高兴，但在“学会新规则、取得进步”的那一刻，心理愉悦感和满足感达到了最高峰；在另一项对比实验中，面对“规则明确且毫无挑战”的游戏与“存在不确定性但能不断摸索学习”的游戏，受试者压倒性地更偏好后者，人们极度反感一成不变的停滞感。 这种对“变化”与“进步”的渴望延伸到了职场管理中。主持人指出，作为雇主，他深刻意识到若想让团队长期保持高昂斗志，最有效的手段往往是定期轮换工作岗位，或为员工持续引入新的职责模块。沙罗特博士表示，这正是其新书《重获新鲜感》（*Look Again*）的核心主题。许多大型企业通过跨部门轮岗机制，打破长久做同一件事所带来的自满与倦怠。一旦环境、合作对象和项目内容哪怕发生微小的变动，大脑便会重新启动编码过程，这不仅能快速唤醒员工的投入度，更是激发创造力的核心催化剂。 - **数字可视化激励**：将锻炼时长、频率等进步指标数据化记录，能持续激活正向反馈回路。 - **认知学习优于纯物质奖励**：大脑在攻克不确定性、掌握新知识时所释放的满足感显著高于单纯获取金钱奖赏。 - **岗位轮换防倦怠**：周期性调整员工的职责与工作场景，能迫使大脑打破习惯化抑制，刺激创造性思维。 --- ### [08:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=507s) 特克斯勒消逝效应：用视觉错觉揭秘习惯化本质 为了让受众直观理解“习惯化”这一抽象的神经生理过程，沙罗特博士与主持人通过一个经典的视错觉实验进行了剖析。在屏幕中央放置一张带有中心黑色标记的彩色图像，只要观众将视线完全固定在中心黑点或十字上，保持眼球绝对静止大约 30 秒，周围原本鲜艳斑斓的颜色就会逐渐暗淡，褪色为灰色，如果专注力极高、眼球分毫不动，整个画面甚至会彻底变为一片纯白。 这一现象被称为“特克斯勒消逝效应”（Troxler's fading），最早由奥地利医生兼哲学家伊格纳茨·保罗·维塔利斯·特克斯勒（Ignaz Paul Vitalis Troxler）在 1804 年发现。沙罗特博士解释道，这背后的神经学机理极为纯粹：当眼球静止不动时，视网膜神经元接收到的外界光信号变成了恒定不变的输入。面对毫无新意的信息流，神经元会得出“这里没有任何新情况”的判断，并迅速停止响应以节约宝贵的生物能量。结果就是，眼睛明明正对着色彩，大脑却彻底切断了对颜色的感知。然而，只要你的眼球出现哪怕极其微小的颤动，所有的颜色就会瞬间如潮水般重新涌现。这个视觉机制恰恰揭示了人类感知周围世界万事万物的普遍铁律。 - **特克斯勒消逝效应（1804年）**：注视固定点保持眼球静止 30 秒左右，外周视觉的色彩与图案会逐渐完全消失。 - **神经资源自适应调配**：神经系统默认忽略静止恒常的信息，旨在为突发、新异的环境变动储备认知与生理资源。 - **微小扰动的唤醒效果**：眼球极其微小的转动即可打破神经元的抑制状态，瞬间使感知恢复如初。 ### [10:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=604s) 习惯化的生物学本质与神经适应机制 人类感知外界的方式存在一个核心规律：只要刺激恒定不变，神经元就会逐渐减少反应，使我们对周遭的事物视而不见、充耳不闻。塔莉·沙罗特（Tali Sharot）指出，如果人的视线完全静止，不同神经元的输入保持不变，眼前的色彩甚至会从意识层面消失；唯有通过眼球转动（或隐喻层面上的生活视角切换），神经输入不断更新，人们才能重新清晰地感知色彩与情绪。这种被称为“习惯化”（Habituation）的机制不仅存在于人类大脑中，更是所有有生命的生物体内最基础的生存策略。从日常人际关系、心理健康到个体的创新能力，都能追溯到这一神经机制的支配。 从演化生物学来看，习惯化是大脑为了节约有限能量资源的必然结果。当某种事物长期摆在眼前而没有引发任何危险或死亡时，大脑就会判定环境是安全的，不再需要消耗宝贵的神经资源持续对其做出强烈反应，从而将注意力留给下一秒可能出现的未知威胁或潜在奖励（如食物或配偶）。正因如此，“周一让人热血沸腾的事物，到了周五便会索然无味”。习惯化既偷走了我们对美好事物的日常喜悦（如稳定的亲密关系、体面的工作或舒适的居所），也麻痹了我们对身边慢性恶劣环境的感知。例如社会中的性别歧视、种族偏见、职场低效或伴侣关系的裂痕，往往因为长期存在而被视作理所当然，导致人们丧失了改变现状的动力。唯独对“肉体疼痛”（Pain），大脑很难产生习惯化，因为疼痛意味着持续的生存威胁。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 习惯化的神经演化机制 accDescr: 展示环境刺激如何在神经节约与生存警觉的驱动下导致感知钝化 subgraph SensoryInput ["刺激输入与安全判定"] A["恒定存在的外部刺激<br/>（良好生活/不良环境）"] --> B{"是否引发危险或伤害？"} end subgraph NeuralResponse ["大脑资源调配"] B -- "否（持续存活无威胁）" --> C["神经元放电逐渐减少<br/>（习惯化生效）"] B -- "是（如肉体疼痛）" --> D["保持高度神经激活<br/>（难以习惯化）"] C --> E["节约大脑认知与生理资源"] end subgraph BehavioralOutcome ["感知结果"] E --> F["对美好事物丧失兴奋感"] E --> G["对负面缺陷失去敏锐度"] E --> H["将资源释放给未来新刺激"] end ``` ### [13:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=780s) 适得其反的体验：为什么中断与留白反而提升享受？ 生活中的感官习惯化无处不在，最迅速的体现莫过于嗅觉。史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）分享了一个切身体验：在健身房锻炼大汗淋漓刚回到家时，他尚能闻到自己的汗味，但经过大约十分钟后，大脑嗅觉受体便不再向神经中枢发送信号，导致自己完全闻不到身上的气味。香水也是如此，初次喷洒时香气扑鼻，连续喷几天后自身便难以察觉。然而沙罗特指出，习惯化最迷人也最反直觉的一面，在于它如何削弱我们对纯粹快乐的体验，以及如何通过“刻意打断”来重获快感。 在一项关于音乐欣赏的研究中，研究人员让受试者挑选自己深爱的曲目（例如巴特利特喜爱的 House Gospel Choir 的歌曲《Angels Watching Over Me》）。高达 99% 的人都坚信，一气呵成、毫无干扰地听完整首歌才能获得最大的愉悦感。然而实验结果截然相反：当歌曲播放中被强行插入间歇或空白时，受试者整体获得的愉悦度反而显著更高，他们甚至愿意为该歌手的演唱会门票支付双倍的价格。更有趣的是，无论在音乐间隔中播放的是绝对的静音还是恼人的噪音，只要存在中断，就能打断大脑对旋律的神经适应，使音乐再次响起时愉悦感重新攀上峰值。 - **按摩实验的双盲对照**：在对比“连续 1 小时的全身按摩”与“拆分为 20 分钟并包含休息间隔的按摩”时，绝大多数人直觉选择前者，但实验测得后者的主观幸福感和满意度显著更高。 - **播客广告的幽默调侃**：巴特利特据此打趣道，这意味着播客里应该插播更多广告，沙罗特笑着表示虽然听众口头上讨厌广告，但从神经心理学角度看，恰当的留白与间歇确实可能在客观上让整期节目的体验更加引人入胜。 ### [16:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=998s) 43小时峰值定律：度假如何通过“初次体验”实现快乐最大化 沙罗特曾与英国一家大型旅游集团合作开展调研，深入度假胜地追踪游客的心理波动，探寻人们在度假过程中何时获得最高程度的享受。数据分析揭示了两个令人意外的关键规律： 度假愉悦感的最高峰值精准出现在抵达度假村后的第 43 个小时。刚到达时，人们往往需要面对舟车劳顿、开箱整理行李等琐事；一旦收拾停当，兴奋感迅速攀升并在 43 小时左右达到顶峰；在此之后，随着大脑对度假环境的习惯化，整体快乐程度开始呈现平缓下降的趋势。与此同时，当被问及“整场度假中最美好的瞬间”时，受试者口中出现频率最高的单词正是“初次”（First）——第一次眺望蔚蓝的大海、第一次跃入清凉的泳池、第一次啜饮热带鸡尾酒。第二或第三次下水固然惬意，但由于神经习惯化的发生，新鲜感与刺激强度已大不如前。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 度假愉悦度时间曲线与多次短途旅行优势 accDescr: 展示长假期的快乐递减过程对比多次短途度假带来的多重峰值 subgraph LongVacation ["单次长假（如2周以上）"] L1["前0-24h：抵达成顿、开箱收拾"] --> L2["第43h：愉悦度绝对峰值<br/>（大量的首次体验）"] L2 --> L3["后续时间：神经习惯化<br/>愉悦度逐渐平稳衰减"] end subgraph ShortBreaks ["策略转型：多次短途周边游"] S1["高频积累'初次体验'"] S2["多次享受出发前的'期待感'（Anticipation）"] S3["多次获得返回后的'余韵快乐'（Afterglow）"] end ``` 这种神经机制为现代人的休假安排提供了全新的优化策略。沙罗特在书中提出，为了最大化生活满意度，与其每年集中休一次长达数周的远途长假，不如将其拆解为多次长周末短途旅行。除了能制造更多珍贵的“初次体验”外，频繁的短途假期还能带来两大心理红利： 1. **期待感（Anticipation）的倍增**：在真正出发去度假前，筹备与憧憬假期的心理过程本身就能极大地提升个体的心理福祉； 2. **余韵效应（Afterglow）的重复累加**：从假期归来后，重温美好回忆所带来的愉悦与满足感能够多次被重新激活。 ### [19:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1151s) 亲密关系与性生活的保鲜：用短暂分离打破情感钝化 在对话的尾声，巴特利特将习惯化的规律引申到了许多人难以启齿却普遍面临的现实困境：伴侣关系与性生活的倦怠感。随着相处日久，激情与新鲜感逐渐褪去，伴侣之间往往很难再维持最初的感激、渴望与强烈吸引。面对这一问题，沙罗特肯定了其普遍性，指出伴侣之间的相互适应本质上同样是大脑的习惯化规律在作祟。 对于亲密关系的降温，解决之道与音乐、度假的机制如出一辙——引入适度的“间歇”。沙罗特强调，这里的间歇并非指彻底破裂的“关系暂停”（Relationship break），而是指健康的个人空间与短暂分离：例如各自度过独立的独处夜晚，或是偶尔独自进行一场周末旅行。物理与时间上的适度距离能够重置神经感知的阈值，让久处不厌的生活细节在重聚时重新焕发出光彩（"resparkles"）。巴特利特由衷认同这种凭借生活直觉已知的规律，并追问在科学界是否已有详实的研究数据能够证实“短暂分离对亲密感和性满意度的积极促进”，沙罗特对此给出了明确的肯定答复。 ### [20:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1211s) 距离产生美：习惯化如何侵蚀伴侣间的性欲与快乐 塔莉·沙罗特（Dr. Tali Sharot）指出，关于亲密关系有一项数据看似显而易见，以至于让人纳闷为什么还需要专门做研究：**当人们与伴侣分开一段距离时，对伴侣的性欲反而会显著上升**。这种现象不仅与“习惯化”（Habituation）紧密相关，更取决于注意力的分配。当一个人或事物始终摆在眼前时，大脑会逐渐将其视作理所当然并停止投注意识，转而去搜寻“我还缺少什么”；唯有当伴侣不在身边时，注意力才会重新聚焦到对方身上。 更为底层的机制隐藏在“快乐（Pleasure）”的神经与心理逻辑中。沙罗特引用了经济学家蒂博尔·西托夫斯基（Tibor Scitovsky）的洞见：“快乐源于对欲望不完全且间歇性的满足（Pleasure results from incomplete and intermittent satisfaction of desires）”。其中的关键词是“间歇性”（意味着需要中断与停顿）与“不完全”（意味着你始终渴望多一点）。沙罗特强调，这个原理几乎适用于一切体验： - **芝士通心粉实验**：实验将受试者分为两组，第一组每天都吃他们喜爱的芝士通心粉（Mac and Cheese），起初两天他们十分享受，但几周后甚至到了“看都不想看一眼”的严重厌烦状态；而另一组每周仅吃一次，其对芝士通心粉的享受程度与渴望感则历久弥新。 - **普遍适用性**：这一快乐机制不仅适用于食物，同样主导着音乐、人际关系乃至假期的体验质量。 --- ### [22:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1328s) 选择的艺术：自主权与认知过载之间的平衡 斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）顺着话题提到高档餐厅的“主厨定制（Chef's Choice）”套餐——由主厨端上多达 13 道固定菜肴，这是否违背了体验感？沙罗特借此阐明了“选择权”与心理健康之间的精妙关系。完全剥夺人的选择权是极不可取的。即使是主厨包办的餐厅，也应当把“由主厨决定”本身做成菜单上的一个选项。只要顾客主动决定了“让主厨为我挑选”，这就依然保留了自主选择感。 选择之所以至关重要，是因为拥有自主权（Agency）是掌控感与幸福感的核心基石。人类甚至绝大多数动物在被彻底剥夺选择时都会产生严重的焦虑感；此外，人们对于自己亲自选出的事物往往会赋予更高的喜爱度。然而，选项绝非越多越好。著名的“果酱实验”显示，当向顾客提供多达 60 种果酱进行选择时，过于庞大的信息会引发严重的认知过载（Cognitive Overload），导致许多人因感到压抑（Aversive）而空手离开。因此，最佳策略是在“完全无选择引发焦虑”与“过度选择导致心智耗竭”之间寻得一个中庸的平衡点。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 选择权对心理体验的影响光谱 accDescr: 图表展示了从没有选择到过多选择对人类心理状态和享受体验的不同影响。 subgraph Spectrum ["选择权与心理负荷光谱"] A["极端无选择\n(剥夺自主权/Agency)"] -->|引发| B["焦虑与挫败感\n享受度极低"] C["适度选择\n(例如：自愿选主厨推荐)"] -->|带来| D["掌控感与满意度\n认知负荷处于最优区间"] E["选择过多\n(例如：面对60种果酱)"] -->|导致| F["认知过载与厌烦\n最终放弃选择"] end ``` --- ### [24:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1444s) 长期关系保鲜法：距离、“探索”与“利用”的配对 针对巴特利特提出的“如何打破伴侣间长达数年的舒适区并维持激情”的疑问，沙罗特基于习惯化理论给出了两条核心建议： 1. **适度抽离（Breaks）**：伴侣之间定期拉开物理或生活空间，制造间隙与距离感，使彼此的注意力重新被唤醒。 2. **共同尝试新鲜事物（Novelty）**：许多伴侣在长期相处中会陷入狭隘的偏好交集，重复去相同的餐厅、看固定的电视节目，形成“周一到周日机械循环”的单调日常。尝试新活动（不局限于性，更包括看从未接触过的电影题材或新户外项目）能有效打破麻木。 巴特利特感慨，如果打算和某人共度 50 年，维持这种新鲜感确实像是一项繁重的工作，但也是人生中最值得付出的努力。在探讨男女是否存在习惯化差异时，巴特利特结合自身经历猜测女性可能更具自发性与探索欲，而男性更倾向固守常规。沙罗特澄清，现有研究并未证明男女在习惯化或探索倾向存在系统性性别差异，但她观察到伴侣之间普遍存在一种互补现象——**“探索者（Explorer）”往往与“利用/守成者（Exploiter）”结为伴侣**： - **相互平衡**：沙罗特自己与合著者卡斯·桑斯坦（Cass Sunstein）在婚姻中都呈现出这种模式（一方热衷发掘新事物，另一方专注深挖已有习惯）。如果一个人只顾探索，生活会失去稳定与最优化积累；如果全盘守成，就会丧失发现新乐趣的契机。 - **正态分布**：从乐观到悲观、从探索到守成，人类各种心理特质都呈现钟形曲线（Bell Curve）。在伴侣或团队协作中，这种性格特质的互补能促成更健康、更长久的动态平衡。 --- ### [29:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1758s) 重拾阅读的深度愉悦：主动想象与心智留白 巴特利特谈到自己最近重新拾起了读书与写作的习惯，这项爱好帮他找回了忙碌职业生涯中被渐渐遗忘的生活乐趣。尽管平时主持播客也能向各领域嘉宾学习，但阅读所带来的兴奋感却完全不同。 沙罗特深表认同，并分析了现代人阅读量减少背后的认知机制。相比于被动接收视听信息的视频媒介，**阅读书籍需要人类大脑进行额外的心智构建**： - **主动具象化（Visualization）**：读者必须在脑海中主动想象画面与场景，深度调用认知资源。 - **自主节奏感（Own Pace）**：读者可以完全按照自己的节奏停顿、思考并引发自发的思维联想，这种间歇与心智留白本身就是对抗习惯化、重获深层思维乐趣的绝佳途径。 ### [30:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1828s) 为什么阅读比看电影更具个人联结感 相较于电影这种被动接受画面的媒介，阅读能够引发更为深层的个人联结。读者在阅读文字时，往往会不由自主地停顿、沉思，随后再继续阅读。在这一过程中，大脑的内部体验、个人回忆与已有知识被强烈唤醒，读者会更主动地将书中的叙事与自己的现实生活相投射，从而赋予内容更鲜活的生命力。 --- ### [30:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1856s) 中年危机真的存在吗：停滞、压力与幸福感的“U型轨迹” 中年危机绝非虚构的文化噱头，它在心理学和流行病学数据中有着扎实的支撑。人的压力水平往往在四五十岁的中年阶段达到顶峰，而主观幸福感则跌入谷底，男性的自杀率也在此时期出现峰值。Dr. Tali Sharot 指出，这一阶段的人群往往背负着繁重的多重压力源（Stressors）：上有日渐衰老需要照料的父母，下有尚未独立的幼子，职场生涯同样处于负荷最沉重的关口。 更深层的心理诱因在于“成长动能的停滞（Plateauing）”。人在二十多岁步入社会时，处于技能飞速增长、认知不断被刷新的爬坡期；然而到了中年，许多人虽然已经取得了体面的职位与物质积累，却不可避免地陷入平台期。晋升通道变窄、不再学习新知识、工作与生活沦为刻板的常规例程（Routine）。缺乏新鲜感与向前迈进的成长动力，是造成中年幸福感低迷的核心根源。 至于幸福感为何在度过中年后逐渐回升，甚至在退休后反弹，Sharot 提出了一种解释：退休打破了日复一日的既定框架。不再需要每天按部就班打卡上班的生活环境，迫使人们重新思考如何安排时间，进而开启了新一轮的尝试、学习与适应，为暮年生活重新注入了多样性与新鲜感。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 人生阶段的幸福感与成长动态 accDescr: 展示从青年到中年的平台期，再到晚年退休重新获得多样性的幸福感U型轨迹 subgraph Youth ["青年期（20-30岁）"] A["快速学习技能"] --> B["目标明确/快速晋升"] end subgraph Midlife ["中年期（40-50岁）"] C["事业步入平台期"] --> D["多重现实压力叠加"] D --> E["缺乏新鲜感与前进动能<br/>幸福感跌入谷底"] end subgraph Senior ["晚年/退休期"] F["退出既定职场框架"] --> G["重新适应生活节奏"] G --> H["探索新爱好与选择<br/>幸福感回升"] end B --> C E --> F ``` --- ### [33:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2038s) “最完美的一天”的悖论：重复如何摧毁幸福感与打破自动化 Steven Bartlett 归纳道，人在四五十岁时，伴侣、职业、社会身份、居住地点乃至朋友圈往往都已完全固定，正是这种“前进动力的丧失”和“常规生活的富集”剥夺了生命的色彩。Sharot 随之提出了一个极具启发性的思想实验： > “设想你度过了人生中最完美的一天：清晨醒来吃着梦寐以求的最棒早餐，与你最爱的人在一起，做着最热衷的活动，晚上看最喜欢的电影。整整一天都被你最爱的事物填满。但如果你第二天醒来做完全一样的事，第三天、第四天依然如法炮制，几周下来，那个曾经‘最完美的一天’将不再带来哪怕一丝喜悦，甚至会让人感到抑郁。” 这揭示了一个残酷的真相：人类的大脑无法在静态的完美中获得持久的快乐。世俗观念往往诱导人们相信，只要按部就班达成既定目标——拥有一栋大房子、理想的伴侣和丰厚的财富，生活开启“自动驾驶模式”就会幸福。然而，真正的幸福需要主动打破与颠覆既有的稳定体验。即便身处固定的人生轨道，人们也必须付出意志力去打破惯性，例如： - 跨领域报班学习一门从未接触过的全新学科 - 开启一项完全陌生的运动挑战 - 前往从未涉足过的地方旅行 - 有意识地接触跳出原本社交圈层的新朋友 多项关于幸福感来源的大型调查表明，与幸福关联度最高的并非物质财富（收入排位并不靠前），而是两大心理核心支柱： 1. **人生意义感（Meaning）**：能够明确感知到生活具有目标与价值。 2. **掌控感（Control）**：坚信自己对生活走向拥有自主决定权。 3. **深度社交联结（Social Connections）**：维系亲密且高质量的人际互动。 --- ### [36:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2213s) 享乐跑步机与心理健康：习惯化如何成为“复原力”的解药 关于幸福的另一个经典发现是“享乐跑步机（Hedonic Treadmill）”效应。数据表明，人在步入婚姻殿堂后主观幸福感会显著上升，但大约在蜜月期过去两年后，幸福感水平就会全面回落至婚前的基准线。Dr. Sharot 解释称，每个人都存在一个由基因遗传及童年早期经历塑造的“幸福基准线（Baseline）”。生活中的重大事件（如升职、结婚、亲人离世或遭受挫折）会使情绪曲线短暂向上激增或跌入谷底，但最终人类都会“适应”并回归原点。 这种心理机制具有双重进化意义： - **进化的驱动力**：如果我们能一直对第一份初级入门工作感到极致满足，就不会产生向更高阶目标奋斗的野心。习惯化促使个体与社会持续前行。 - **心理复原的超级力量（Superpower）**：面对重大不幸与逆境，习惯化使人类能够随着时间推移逐渐钝化痛苦，重新恢复心理常态。 更重要的是，**习惯化能力与抑郁症（Depression）存在极其密切的神经生物学联系**。抑郁的核心特征并非感受不到痛苦，而是“习惯化速度过慢”。 佛罗里达大学的 Aaron Heller 教授曾进行过一项实验，对刚收到考试成绩的学生进行追踪，在当天每隔45分钟记录一次情绪变化。结果显示： - 无论是曾经患有抑郁症的学生，还是心理健康的对照组，在面对不及格或糟糕的成绩时，最初感受到的负面情绪完全相同。 - 没有抑郁病史的学生，其负面情绪随着时间推移以稳定的斜率缓慢衰减，逐步复原。 - 患有抑郁症或有抑郁病史的学生，情绪恢复的速度则极其缓慢，长时间深陷恶劣心境。 Sharot 阐明，抑郁人群之所以表现出极其迟缓的习惯化，是因为其思维模式陷入了“反刍（Rumination）”——如同牛咀嚼草料一样，在脑海中不断回放、倒带那些糟糕的负面事件，“久久无法翻篇（not letting go）”，从神经机制上阻碍了心理弹性的自动修复。 --- ### [40:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2427s) 新鲜感的另一面：为什么40%的新员工在半年内离职 既然习惯化会逐渐剥夺生活的乐趣，理论上追求“新鲜感”应该能带来快乐，但 Steven 提出了一个矛盾的职场现象：数据显示，高达40%的新入职员工会在前六个月内选择离职。如果全新的环境充满不同，为何他们感受到的不是喜悦而是逃离？ Sharot 回应称，新事物固然能激发兴奋感，但“适应新环境”本身伴随着巨大的认知负荷与心理成本。这与她之前提到的“度假心理曲线”完全一致——游客在刚刚踏入度假胜地的前几个小时通常不是最快乐的，因为他们需要耗费精力倒时差、办理入住、整理行李以及熟悉陌生环境，平均需要长达 43 个小时的大脑调适期，愉悦感才会真正达到峰值。进入全新职场同样如此，初期的压力、不适感以及对未知流程的适应期，往往会短暂压过新鲜感带来的红利。 ### [41:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2473s) 适应新环境：为什么我们在新起点容易想“打退堂鼓” 当我们踏入一段全新日常或接手一份新工作时，认知负荷往往是巨大的。在新的工作岗位上，虽然我们最终会学到新知并收获成就感，但最初的几天通常伴随着剧烈的不适感。你必须理清错综复杂的职场人际——“谁掌权、谁听令，甚至食堂在哪里、午饭吃什么”，无数微小琐碎的未知接踵而至，让人倍感压力与不知所措。面对这种重负，许多人内心的本能反应是立刻想要掉头折返（“run back to your old life, do a U-turn”）。 问题在于，绝大多数人无法对未来的心理适应做出准确预判。在第一天、第二天甚至第一周感到沮丧或不适时，人们往往草率地下结论：“我感到不快乐，说明这份工作不适合我。”Dr. Tali Sharot 指出，事实可能并非工作本身有问题，而是大脑尚未完成习惯化（habituation）的适应期。无论是面对新工作还是新恋情，都需要给自己留出适应的缓冲期。随着时间推移，那些原本令你焦躁的消极细节会被大脑逐渐过滤与钝化，不再产生剧烈的情绪波动。如果在给予充分的适应时间后依然感到痛苦，那时再做出改变才符合理性。 --- ### [42:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2560s) 激发团队动力与创造力：工作的“甜蜜点”与极度厌恶无聊 企业管理者、创始人以及员工面临的一个核心议题是：如何维持团队的长期自驱力与投入度？Steven Bartlett 观察到，若员工在长达 12 个月的时间里重复做着完全相同的事情，通常在接下来的三个月内就会出现心理倦怠并寻求沟通，因为人们需要“工作多样性”来重新激发意义感。他总结了员工热爱工作的五大核心要素： 1. **前进动力与进展感（Forward Motion & Progress）**：明确感知到自己正在朝着目标推进。 2. **适度挑战（Sufficient Challenge）**：难度需恰如其分。压力过大或缺乏挑战都会导致动机崩溃，如同游戏心理学中的设定。 3. **掌控力与自主权（Control & Autonomy）**：对自己的工作和生活节奏具备决定权。 4. **主观意义（Subjective Meaning）**：对工作抱有属于自己的独特认同与价值感。 5. **支持型团队（Supportive Group）**：置身于互相信任、彼此支持的人际环境。 Dr. Sharot 强调，学习与挑战之间存在一个因人而异的“最佳甜蜜点（Sweet Spot）”。如果一项工作毫无新知，人会感到枯燥麻木；而如果难度过高导致完全无法消化，挫败感便会吞没热情。为了佐证大脑对“纯粹无聊”的排斥，她引用了一项发表在《科学》（*Science*）期刊上的经典实验：当受试者被单独关在一间没有任何娱乐手段的房间里，唯一的消遣就是按下一个按钮电击自己时，许多人宁可选择承受肉体疼痛，也不愿忍受无所事事的虚无。这证明人类大脑对极度单调的厌恶甚至超越了对轻微痛苦的恐惧。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 工作挑战与心理状态的关系 accDescr: 展示工作难度过低、适中、过高时人类心理状态及行为的转变流程。 subgraph 状态区间 L["挑战极低 / 毫无变化"] -->|"导致极度无聊"| B["宁受电击亦拒虚无<br/>失去动力与参与感"] M["适度挑战 / 探索新知"] -->|"处于平衡区间"| S["甜蜜点 Sweet Spot<br/>持续进阶与高投入"] H["挑战过高 / 无法消化"] -->|"导致严重超载"| O["挫败焦虑与认知瘫痪<br/>难以持续学习"] end ``` --- ### [45:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2713s) 习惯化与创造力：为什么慢习惯化者往往极具创见 神经科学研究揭示了一个耐人寻味的现象：**在生理上习惯化速度较慢的人，往往具有更高的创造力**。研究人员通过向受试者重复播放相同的声音，利用皮肤电导反应（Skin Conductance，即人处于情绪或生理唤醒状态时微汗引起的导电性变化）来测量其习惯化程度。普通人听到重复单调的声音后，皮肤电导反应很快消退，大脑迅速将其视作无关背景音过滤掉；然而，有一部分人的神经系统会持续对重复声音产生唤醒反应。 追踪发现，这些持续响应、无法迅速“习惯化”的人群，在现实中往往具有突出的创造性成就：他们拥有个人专利、在美术馆举办过艺术展、出版过书籍，或是凭借开创性工作斩获各类奖项。Dr. Sharot 解释背后的认知机制在于：习惯化本质上是大脑的过滤机制，帮助我们丢弃不重要的次要信息；但如果不习惯化，大量看似平庸、琐碎的声音、物体和杂乱知识点便会在大脑中持续“发酵（simmering）”。 许多颠覆性的创新往往来自跨领域的知识嫁接——从某一领域提取出看似平淡无奇、乏善可陈的细碎信息，却恰好解开了另一个毫不相干领域的死结。例如，将生物学中冷门细微的运作规律引入现代科技架构，往往能催生出极具开创性的解决方案。正是那些未能被大脑快速过滤掉的碎片信息，在无意识的碰撞中孕育了跨学科的顿悟。 --- ### [47:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2864s) 打破习惯化：改变微环境与短暂抽离的“顿悟魔力” 既然降低过度习惯化有助于激发创造力，那么普通人该如何主动打破习惯化（dishabituation）？答案出乎意料地简单：**改变所处的微环境与身体状态**。研究显示，即便只是轻微调整外在场景——例如在办公室工作几小时后换到咖啡馆，或者从久坐工位站起来出门快走、跑步——都会立刻激活大脑的敏锐度。在散步或跑步开始的前 6 分钟，以及运动结束重新坐回工位的前 6 分钟，大脑的创造力水平会出现显著峰值。 尽管 6 分钟看起来极为短暂，但它往往足以促成决定性的“顿悟时刻（Aha Moment）”。Dr. Sharot 分享了两个亲身经历的科研突破： - **健身房路上的灵光一现**：在办公室苦思一项研究难题陷入死局后，她决定暂时搁置并步行去健身房。就在走向健身房的路上，困扰已久的解法突然在脑海中成型，她兴奋地当场打电话给学生分享，这个顿悟直接改写了团队未来数年的研究路线。 - **《纽约时报》副刊带来的跨界灵感**：在办公室陷入停滞时，她休息片刻翻阅了《纽约时报》的科学版面。作为人类行为研究学者，她偶然读到一篇关于猴子行为的冷门报道，正是这个看似无关的琐碎发现，激发了她设计全新课题的构想。 她感慨道，所有重大灵感的涌现从来不是源于“在工位上拼命硬想”，而是来自从常规轨迹中短暂抽离，去做那些占日常时间不到 10% 的非惯性事务。 --- ### [49:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2994s) 人类认知的系统性盲区：我们为何坚信自己的信念 对话转入更深层次的神经科学反思：作为长期深耕大脑机制的研究者，有哪些关于人类本性的真相是大众不愿承认、却在实验中被反复证实的？Steven Bartlett 指出，人类经常表现出与自我认知截然相反的行为偏误，即便面对科学证据也本能地拒绝接受。 Dr. Sharot 表示赞同并指出，人类对自身的系统性认知错误与认知偏差几乎处于无意识状态，其中最具代表性的便是**信念系统（Belief System）的形成机制**。如果你当面询问一个人为什么持有某种观点或信仰，对方一定会滔滔不绝地给出逻辑严密的“理性解释”，声称自己是基于客观事实、铁证与严谨推理得出的结论。然而，神经科学与心理学研究却揭示了一个残酷的悖论：我们在绝大多数情况下所坚信的事物，其背后的驱动力往往与理性证据相去甚远。 ### [50:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3056s) 真相错觉效应：大脑为何更容易相信重复的信息 人类之所以会对某些观念深信不疑，往往是因为我们成长在一个盛行这种观念的环境中，身边的人都对此深信不疑，或者我们一次又一次地听到同样的说法。Tali Sharot 博士指出，这种现象在心理学上被称为“真相错觉效应”（Illusory Truth Effect）。大量的科学研究表明，一件事情只要你反复听过——哪怕仅仅听过两次——无论你是否记得自己曾在哪里听过，你相信它的概率都会远远高于只听过一次的内容。其神经机制在于，大脑在处理以前接触过的信息时，调动的认知资源会显著减少。 博士举了一个形象的例子：假设第一次告诉你“虾的心脏长在脑袋里”，这听起来十分反直觉，大脑需要调动大量认知负荷去消化——你可能会回忆上次吃虾的情景，或者在脑海中勾勒虾的解剖图；第二次再听到这句话时，大脑的加工量就会明显下降；到了第三次，大脑几乎毫不费力就能处理完毕。大脑在处理信息时耗费的精力越少，就会向意识发出一道“熟悉感”（familiarity）的神经信号，而大脑习惯于将这种低阻力的流畅感直接等同于“极有可能是真的”。从进化角度看，这种启发式判断是有合理依据的：在日常生活中，如果你的姑姑、朋友和医生都在重复同一件事，它在概率上大概率是真实的；然而在现代信息环境中，这种机制极易滋生虚假信念。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 认知流畅度与真相错觉形成机制 accDescr: 展示大脑在重复接收信息时认知负荷下降、熟悉感增加并最终转化为相信的过程 subgraph InfoInput["信息输入阶段"] A["听到全新信息\n（认知负荷高）"] B["重复听到相同信息\n（认知负荷骤降）"] end subgraph NeuralProcess["大脑加工阶段"] C["认知流畅度提升\n（所需能耗极低）"] D["触发熟悉感信号\n（Familiarity Signal）"] end subgraph JudgmentOutput["认知结论"] E["误判为客观事实\n（真相错觉效应）"] end A -->|"再次接触"| B B --> C C --> D D --> E ``` - **视觉与听觉流畅度对真实感的影响**：大脑不仅对重复内容产生偏好，排版形式也会直接影响判断。研究表明，大号加粗字体（如 14 号粗体）比普通小字更容易让人信以为真；红色高亮或者清晰无杂音的音频，也比带有环境噪音的声音更具说服力。Steven Bartlett 补充道，在自己的所有营销公司中，哪怕仅仅把文字字号调大一点点，点击率都会直接上升。 - **说服与沟通的核心技巧**：若想让受众接受你的观点或建议，应当降低其认知门槛。除了视觉排版清晰外，最有效的方法是将其与受众已有的既定信念（先验知识，priors）相绑定。例如，如果直接说“吃糖对身体好”，人们会本能排斥；但如果说“吃沙拉和糖对身体好”，听众的大脑会率先确认“沙拉确实有益”，在顺畅接受前置命题的同时，也会对后半句放下戒备，整体说服力大幅提高。 --- ### [55:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3336s) 破除习惯化生活清单：职场横向探索与成长动力 在厘清了习惯化的机理后，Steven Bartlett 提出希望为日常生活总结一套可落地的“去习惯化清单”（Checklist to Dehabituate）。他梳理了之前讨论的亲密关系策略——比如与伴侣保持一定距离制造空间感、周末尝试新餐厅或探索陌生目的地；随后他半开玩笑地询问在工作层面是不是意味着“我应该辞职”。Sharot 博士立刻打消了这个极端想法，明确表示绝不应贸然辞职，关键在于在现有工作框架内注入“新颖性”（novelty）。 博士解释，打破职业倦怠并不需要全盘掀翻现有生活，而是可以通过承担新的职责、学习未知的技能来为日常注入多样性。Steven 自身同时经营播客和多家不同领域的企业，天然拥有丰富的认知切换，但对于绝大多数从事单一岗位的员工而言，这种多样性需要主动设计。Steven 由此联想到企业管理：优秀的雇主必须为团队成员制定个人发展计划（Personal Development Plan），确保员工在认知层面始终保持“向前推进的动力”（intellectual forward motion），持续探索本职工作以外的新事物。 - **职业发展的“横向走法”**：Sharot 博士指出，学习的新方向并不一定非要沿着垂直晋升阶梯直线向上，有时“横向探索”（going sideways）反而更具价值。比如视频剪辑师或制作人去学习音乐编曲，这种看似偏离主业的跨界输入，最终都会以意想不到的方式反哺核心技能，彻底激活大脑的深度学习模式。 - **微小习惯与生活日常**：Steven 追问去习惯化是否应该细致到早晨骑车上班的路线选择、出差入住的酒店或者搭乘的航空公司等日常微小决策。 --- ### [57:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3478s) 好事要切碎，坏事要一口吞下：负面体验的去习惯化反例 针对 Steven 提出的“频繁更换航空公司与通勤细节”的想法，Sharot 博士给出了一个极具颠覆性的神经科学纠偏：去习惯化只适用于那些能带来愉悦、灵感或需要学习的“正面体验”。如果某件事情本身毫无乐趣可言，纯粹是不得不完成的苦差事（例如枯燥的商务飞行、批改试卷、大扫除或申报个人所得税），最优策略恰恰是**完全重复旧模式，且一鼓作气全部搞定**。 这背后依赖的是人类大脑对“负面刺激产生习惯化”的自适应能力。人类在直觉上往往存在认知误区：面对痛苦或繁重的任务时，大家总倾向于在中间安排几次休息，以为“喘口气”能减轻痛苦。但实验数据显示，这种做法反而放大了受苦程度——每次短暂休息后重新投入苦差事，大脑必须重新体验一遍最初的抗拒与痛苦峰值。 | 体验类型 | 最佳应对策略 | 神经认知机制 | 典型生活场景 | |:--- |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **积极体验**<br>（正面愉悦、需要灵感的事情） | **切碎打散，引入新颖性**<br>（制造间隔、打破日常常规） | 阻断大脑的习惯化衰减，重启多巴胺与感知敏感度 | 伴侣度假、周末娱乐、职场跨界学习技能 | | **消极体验**<br>（枯燥杂务、不得不做的痛苦事务） | **一口吞下，保持机械重复**<br>（不设间断、沿用完全相同的惯例） | 促成大脑对负面刺激的钝化与适应，缩短主观痛苦期 | 申报个税、拖地打扫、长途差旅赶路、批量批阅作业 | Sharot 博士用一句精辟的格言总结道：“好事情你要切碎了慢慢享用，坏事情你必须整块一口吞下去”（The good things you chop up, the bad things you want to swallow whole）。对于那些无法带来新见识的消极事务，完全沿用习惯化模式（如固定搭乘同一家航司、走固定流程），大脑耗费的意志力最少，受到的主观折磨也最低。 随后，Steven 将话题引向现代数字生活带来的困扰：社交媒体是否正在让我们产生“替代性习惯化”（vicariously habituate）？当我们整天在 Instagram 上刷别人展示的精彩生活和旅行体验时，是否在无形中抬高了自己的心理预期阈值？这导致当我们亲自去到别人发过动态的同一个地方时，因为早已在屏幕上“体验”过无数次，真实的现场感反而大打折扣、索然无味。Sharot 博士对此表示认同，并指出这触及了人类预期心理机制的核心。 ### [01:00:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3638s) 社交媒体、过高期望与多巴胺机制 塔利·沙罗特（Dr. Tali Sharot）指出，社交媒体往往会诱发人们产生不切实际的期望，导致绝大多数人在刷手机时都会对自己产生某种失望感。人们在网上通常只展示生活中的高光时刻——度假、获奖、成功，浏览者误以为这些好事时刻发生在所有人身上，进而对自己的日常生活感到沮丧。这种现象改变了所谓的“适应水平”（adaptation level）。通常情况下，大脑会适应日常生活的基准线，当发生优于基准线的事时感到快乐，反之则感到糟糕。然而，适应水平的基线并不完全取决于真实生活，还会被人们对未来的预期以及他人的表现所左右。 沙罗特以一项关于服刑人员的研究为例：当囚犯即将刑满释放时，尽管人还身在监狱，脑海中却已经开始想象获释后的美好生活。这种预期的抬高反而让他们当下感觉更加糟糕——明明距离重获自由近在咫尺，情绪却跌入谷底，因为残酷的现实生活与他们对未来的高度期望形成了强烈的落差。史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）立刻联想到社交媒体的使用场景：一个人坐在家中，看着屏幕里别人在阳光明媚的度假胜地尽情派对狂欢，此时自己的房子瞬间就变得像是一座“牢房”。 沙罗特进一步解释，期望本身并不全是坏事，这与大脑中的多巴胺神经元活动紧密相连。多巴胺神经元一直在持续放电，当现实结果优于预期时（例如获得了高于预期的薪水，或者牛排的味道比想象中还要好），多巴胺神经元会爆发式放电，让人心情愉悦；而当现实结果低于预期时，神经元放电便会沉寂下来，导致情绪低落。然而，这种神经元的静默和负面情绪非常关键，它在向大脑发出明确信号：“现实不如预期，需要做出改变以进行学习。”人们面对这种落差有两种解决途径：要么降低期望，要么改变现实努力提升结果。正因如此，未达预期的负面情绪往往是推动个人取得进步的核心驱动力。沙罗特还分享了一个反直觉的现象：在医疗系统较差的国家，医疗水平对居民日常幸福感的影响反而不如医疗系统健全的国家大；因为在优质体系下人们期望极高，任何瑕疵都会破坏满意度，而在期望原本就很低的环境中，糟糕的现状反而不会对幸福感造成太大波动。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 预期与多巴胺反应循环 accDescr: 展示现实结果与预期的对比如何影响多巴胺分泌并引发心理调控 subgraph Evaluation ["预期与现实对比"] A["预期设定 (来自社交媒体/自身期望)"] --> B{"现实结果 vs 预期"} end subgraph Outcomes ["神经递质与情绪反应"] B -- "结果优于预期" --> C["多巴胺神经元爆发放电<br/>心情愉悦、获得奖赏感"] B -- "结果低于预期" --> D["多巴胺神经元沉寂<br/>情绪低落、产生落差"] end subgraph Adaptation ["行为与心理调整"] D --> E["学习与调整信号触发"] E --> F["降低心理期望"] E --> G["改变现实行动 (驱动进步)"] end ``` - **囚犯释放前研究**：临近获释的囚犯因脑中提前预演自由生活，导致期望拉高，相比刑期较长时反而对当下的牢狱环境感到更加痛苦。 - **多巴胺预测误差（Prediction Error）**：多巴胺放电水平直接与“现实是否超出预期”挂钩，而非单纯由事件本身的好坏决定。 - **医疗满意度反差**：医疗体系落后地区的居民日常幸福感更少受医疗问题波动，因为其初始期望极低。 --- ### [01:04:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3868s) 赞助商插播：健康监测与肠道微生态研究（Whoop 与 Zoe） 史蒂文分享了个人健康意识的转变过程，坦言在接触健康追踪设备 Whoop 之前，自己对身体状况知之甚少。尽管他的许多朋友、家人及团队成员已广泛使用该设备，但仍有一些朋友因害怕直面数据而犹豫不决。史蒂文强调“知识就是力量”，唯有了解睡眠不足与不良生活习惯对长期健康的损害，生活方式才能迎来积极转变。 随后，史蒂文提到了自己参与投资的健康科技公司 Zoe。Zoe 凭借庞大的用户群和最新科研突破，对其肠道健康测试进行了重大升级。原先的测试仅能分析肠道内的 30 种细菌类型，而最新技术已能精准识别 100 种肠道细菌，代表了目前市场上最前沿的肠道微生态科研成果。 --- ### [01:06:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3977s) 目标达成的关键：弥合时间差（Bridge the Temporal Gap） 史蒂文提到沙罗特曾做过一场播放量超过 1500 万次的 TED 演讲，主题为“如何激励自己改变行为”，并询问如何将这些原则应用于实现“新年新气象”的新年目标。沙罗特指出，人们在设定目标时面临的最大障碍在于绝大多数目标都是长期的：去健身房是为了未来能变瘦、变健康，但当天并不能立刻穿进小号牛仔裤；努力工作是为了将来能升职加薪，但付出的努力无法即刻兑现。 沙罗特强调，大脑非常难以为了遥远未来的回报去驱动当下的即时行动，因此核心秘诀在于“弥合时间差”（Bridge the temporal gap），为当下寻找即时回报： 1. **即时奖励捆绑**：将枯燥的任务与即时的乐趣结合。例如有些人去健身房上跑步机时，才允许自己观看无脑狗血剧或翻阅平时不看的八卦杂志。 2. **外部即时正面反馈**：沙罗特提到一位女士为了鼓励丈夫去健身，在丈夫每次健身归来时都会夸赞“我能明显看到并摸到你的肌肉了”，通过即时的认可巩固习惯。 3. **凸显内在情绪回报**：在完成运动或攻克工作难题后，人们本身会产生愉悦感与成就感。通过追踪记录当天的情绪和心情（例如打卡记录“今天去健身了，状态非常好”），能让这种无形的即时心理奖赏变得显性化（salient）。 史蒂文随后提出了自己的“自律方程式”（Discipline Equation）假说，以此解释自己在生活中保持自律的规律。他认为自律取决于三个核心变量： - **目标本身的价值与动机（The Why）**：对该目标的重视程度与渴望强度。 - **追求过程中的即时奖赏（Reward of Pursuit）**：在执行过程和完成当下所获得的感受（例如在跑步机上的快感、健步回家时的舒畅感）。 - **追求过程中的阻力与成本（Cost of Pursuit）**：实现目标所需的麻烦与消耗（例如穿鞋出门、叫 Uber、单程耗费 45 分钟、搭进两小时时间）。 要维持长久的自律，必须尽一切可能强化“为什么要做”（The Why），明确目标的根本意义，并积极构建即时回报以抵消行动成本。 ### [01:09:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=4195s) 当下偏差与即时成本：目标达成的神经机制 追求长远目标时，人们往往难以坚持，其根源在于人类大脑对成本和奖励在时间维度上的感知差异。塔莉·沙罗特（Tali Sharot）博士指出，追求目标的“成本”（cost）几乎总是即时的、直接摆在眼前的——比如出门去健身房必须先顶着寒风走过去，而目标带来的“奖励”（reward）却往往遥遥无期。这种心理机制在认知科学中被称为“当下偏差”（present bias）或“跨期贴现”（temporal discounting）：大脑倾向于对当下正在发生的事物赋予过高的权重，无论是当下的痛苦还是当下的诱惑，都会直接左右大脑的即刻决策。 为了克服即时成本造成的阻碍，沙罗特博士提出了两项核心应对策略：一是**降低追求目标时的即时摩擦成本**（例如选择距离更近的健身房）；二是**将奖励在时间线上提前**，让过程本身变得愉悦。例如，一个人如果在去健身房或跑步的路上强行枯燥前进，大概率会放弃；但如果把“听最喜欢的播客”与跑步绑定，原本延迟的健康收益就转化为了当下的乐趣。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 目标行动的成本与激励机制 accDescr: 展示即时成本与跨期贴现如何阻碍行动，以及如何通过即时奖励与社会承诺促成行动。 subgraph Problem["阻碍行动的认知困境"] A["即时成本 (付出体力/克服阻力)"] --> C["当下偏差 / 跨期贴现"] B["延迟回报 (长远健康/职业目标)"] --> C C --> D["行动推迟或放弃"] end subgraph Solution["破解策略：重塑激励结构"] E["绑定即时愉悦感 (如跑步时听播客)"] --> G["即时正向收益"] F["引入人为惩罚 (社会契约/未完成罚款)"] --> H["即时负向成本"] G & H --> I["克服即时阻力，触发自律行为"] end ``` 史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）分享了一个与知名作家西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）探讨自律时的案例： - 西蒙·斯涅克曾提出异议，提到自己在洛杉矶早晨 7 点挣扎着爬出温暖的被窝去倒垃圾，过程中毫无愉悦可言，却依然完成了。 - 史蒂芬用行为框架分析了这一行为：西蒙行动背后的“为什么”（Why）足够强大，因为不倒垃圾会导致垃圾溢出并面临市政当局的罚款；此时虽然毫无过程奖励，但承担的后果成本远远高于起床走动的成本，因此自律得以发生。 - 沙罗特博士补充，人类拥有发达的前额叶皮层（frontal lobes），这意味着我们并非仅仅受即刻动物本能驱使，我们有能力计算未来的利弊并赋予其价值。 - 人们还常常利用**人为设立的即时惩罚**来倒逼自己行动。例如在社交平台公开宣布计划（若放弃将承受巨大的声誉损失），或者与朋友订立社会契约（Social Pact）：“如果周一早上 7 点前我不把书稿章节发给你，我系统自动转账 100 美元到你的账户”。 --- ### [01:12:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=4361s) 激励的多样性与职场中的“意义感危机” 史蒂芬感慨道，归根结底，商业、人际关系乃至整个人生，底层的核心运转逻辑都是“激励”（incentives）。沙罗特博士深表赞同，指出无论是意识层面还是潜意识层面的每一个决策和行动，本质上都是利害权衡。然而，在生物进化的阶梯上，越低等的物种其激励因素越单一基础，无非是食物、温度与生存；但处于进化顶端的人类，其激励因素极为丰富多样——金钱、食物、社交连接、新鲜感（variety）以及痛苦感的来源都千差万别。 史蒂芬分享了他投资的一家公司中发生的一起员工离职真实案例，揭示了人们对内在深层激励的迟钝与误判： * **表面诉求与真实动因的错位**：一名表现优秀的团队成员失去了对工作的热爱并提交辞呈。在离职面谈中，她列举了一长串离职理由，抱怨办公室环境、现场播放的音乐、琐碎的杂事等。 * **深层动因的挖掘**：史蒂芬亲自与她深入沟通后发现，上述理由纯属表层遮掩，其本质问题是**工作意义感的丧失**（loss of meaning）。她无法回答这份工作究竟有何价值，觉得自己所做的事情已经不再重要。 * **对意义感的认知盲区**：大多数员工在失去动力时，往往很难敏锐意识到自己其实是遭遇了“意义感枯竭”，反而倾向于将情绪归咎于周围显而易见的琐事。 沙罗特博士回应，这与先前的调查结果高度契合：在影响人类幸福感的所有要素中，**“意义感”始终稳居榜首**。所谓意义感，即个体感受到自己所做的事情超越了自身狭隘的利益，产生了一种“为超越自我的事物做出贡献”的价值体验，甚至隐约关联着对抗死亡的“不朽感”（immortality）——坚信自己的创造将在自己离开后继续留存并发挥影响。史蒂芬·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）名言中的“在宇宙中留下印记”（make a dent in the universe）正是这种追求的极致体现，但沙罗特强调，留下印记并不一定非得发明一台 Mac 电脑，精心抚养孩子、经营家庭同样能创造超越个体的长久价值。 --- ### [01:16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=4562s) Z世代的“改变世界”情结与意义感阈值的习惯化 史蒂芬观察到，Z 世代（Gen Z）和年轻千禧一代呈现出鲜明的“改变世界一代”特征。过去十年里，有无数年轻人走到他面前宣称“我想改变世界”，但当被追问究竟想改变什么时，他们却语焉不详；他们执着的是“成为那个带来颠覆性影响的人”这一身份标签。 史蒂芬将这种心态与上一代人进行了鲜明对比： - 史蒂芬 65 岁的父亲在 20 岁时的职业诉求十分朴素具体，只想成为一名结构工程师（Structural Engineer），从未把“改变世界”挂在嘴边。 - 史蒂芬提出疑问：社交媒体的泛滥让年轻人每天目睹全球层面的宏大叙事与变革，这是否导致了**意义感感知的习惯化（Habituation）**？年轻一代的心理预期被推得极高，以至于他们认为必须颠覆世界才算拥有人生意义，普通的、渐进式的工作因此失去了吸引力。 对此，沙罗特博士进行了更深一层的辨析： - **概念表达与内心动机的代际差异**：两代人可能只是在使用不同的语汇。史蒂芬的父亲想成为工程师，其深层动机大概率同样源于“渴望创造新事物”，而只要创造出新事物，客观上就已经改变了世界；不同之处在于，老一辈人专注于手头的具体行动，改变世界是自然产生的结果，而年轻一代则将“改变世界”设定为直接瞄准的目标。 - **重新定义“改变世界”**：沙罗特提醒，不必把“在世界中留下印记”神圣化或宏大化为全球范围的颠覆。为家人做一顿美味可口的饭菜、在日常微小处给人带来快乐，本质上都是在“为你周围的世界创造改变”（creates a change in your world）。将注意力从遥不可及的全球宏愿拉回到切身的环境中，才是摆脱这种心理虚无的解药。 ### [01:19:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=4740s) 意义感作为一种特权，以及迈向未知的冒险 对人生意义的追寻，在某种程度上是一种建立在基本生理与生存需求得到满足之上的“奢侈品”。当人们有了食物、住所和安全保障这些基础条件后，才会腾出心智空间去思考人生的意义；但从另一角度来看，悉心照顾家人、守护他们的安全，本身也是一种极其厚重的意义感。 当谈到改变人生时，人们往往需要主动迎合风险。针对那些站在不确定的十字路口、因害怕未知而犹豫不决的人，塔莉·沙罗特（Tali Sharot）引用了攀岩家亚历克斯·霍诺德（Alex Honnold）在书中的观点：每个人周围都有一个“舒适区气泡”（comfort zone bubble）。当不断尝试新事物时，这个气泡的边界就会被不断向外推挤，越变越大。曾经看似不可思议、疯狂至极的事情，会逐渐落入可能实现的范畴之内。 关键在于勇敢迈出第一步去尝试。面对高不可攀的宏大目标和巨大风险，最有效的策略是“从小处着手”：先尝试一小步，紧接着的下一步便不再显得那么吓人，如此循序渐进。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 拓展舒适圈与风险适应流程 accDescr: 展示从小步尝试到舒适圈扩大，再到更高阶行动的循序渐进机制。 subgraph S1["行动初期"] A["设定远大目标与感知风险"] --> B["迈出极小的第一步"] end subgraph S2["适应与拓展"] B --> C["情绪对风险产生习惯化"] C --> D["舒适区气泡向外扩张"] end subgraph S3["进阶突破"] D --> E["曾觉疯狂的事变成可能"] E --> F["挑战更高难度与未知"] end ``` ### [01:20:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=4855s) 风险习惯化的双刃剑：从赌博实验到VR高空漫步 情绪对风险的适应过程被称为“风险习惯化”（risk habituation）。它既能鼓励人们探索新世界，也可能将人引向危险的深渊： - **无反馈赌博实验**：在一项心理学实验中，受试者在不知晓输赢结果的情况下连续下注。起初他们只押很小的赌注，但随着下注次数增加，他们对赌博越来越适应，焦虑感随之减轻。然而，兴奋感也随之递减，促使他们必须下更大的赌注来换取同等刺激。由于情绪对风险产生习惯化，风险行为会急剧升级。 - **VR高空走钢丝实验**：为了在安全受控的环境下测试身体冒险行为，研究人员让受试者戴上 VR 头显，搭乘电梯升上虚拟摩天大楼的高空并踩上一块悬空木板。即使理智明确知道自己身处安全的办公室地面，大脑依然会被逼真的视觉完全欺骗，产生本能的恐惧。 - **生理反应衰减**：通过测量皮肤电导反应（Skin Conductance Response, SCR）发现，受试者最初可能只敢小心翼翼地挪动一两步，但经历多轮测试后，焦虑感逐渐下降，探索行为大幅激增，到第 10 次尝试时甚至敢直接从木板上跳跃。由于对刺激的兴奋度降低，他们必须承担更大风险以获得满足感。 这种机制完美解释了为何老手更容易遭遇惨痛失败：运动员在职业生涯后期、建筑工人在工程项目后期的事故发生率，往往远高于刚入行或项目初期。当处于一种“结果尚未显现”的隐性赌博中（例如长期吸烟、暴饮暴食垃圾食品或盲目进行长期投资），因为医生还未打电话通知患病、账户还没暴跌崩盘，人们在风险习惯化的驱动下不断升级放纵行为，直到恶果瞬间引爆。 ### [01:24:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=5074s) 生活中的盲区：“生活实验”与空调白噪音效应 许多人感到生活缺乏快乐时，往往会武断地归咎于当前的关系不够好，或是手头的工作不理想。但这并不代表关系或工作真的有问题，极可能只是因为它们“维持现状太久而让人习以为常”。在轻举妄动做出破坏性决定之前，不妨先主动给生活加点料、改变节奏，重新审视现状。 反之亦然，有些事物长年累月对生活造成负面影响，当事人却因为习惯成自然而浑然不知——社交媒体便是典型代表。人们隐约感觉 Instagram 或 Twitter 会带来焦虑和压力，但只要不切断它，就永远无法准确评估它造成的真实伤害。这就像房间里一直嗡嗡作响的空调噪音，人在其中毫无察觉；只有当关掉电源、噪音骤然平息的那一瞬间，人们才会猛然惊叹：“天哪，原来刚刚的环境让人这么烦躁，世界竟然可以如此清静。” 正因如此，需要在日常中践行“生活实验”（experiments in living）： - 只有主动改变现状，才能看清到底什么是生命中真正美好的，什么是暗中消耗你的毒瘤。 - 比如主动暂别社交媒体数周，或者尝试一种截然不同的生活节奏。 ### [01:26:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=5167s) 告别社交媒体实验：幸福感的激增与回归的执念 经济学家亨特·奥尔科特（Hunt Allcott）曾做过一个知名实验：招募 1,000 名受试者并支付他们 100 美元，条件是停用 Facebook 一个月；同时设置对照组，同样给予 100 美元但允许其照常使用社交媒体。 - **全方位福祉提升**：一个月后的测量结果显示，戒断社交媒体的这组人在每一项心理健康指标上均显著优于对照组——他们更加快乐，焦虑、抑郁与悲伤情绪明显减少。受试者自己也对如此强烈的改善感到震惊。 - **矛盾的复吸行为**：令人不解的是，即使受试者高度认同停用社交媒体让自己更幸福，一个月期限一到，绝大多数人依然立刻重新下载并使用 Facebook。 - **背后的驱动力**：沙罗特分析，这主要是因为人类对“信息与知识”具有强烈的原生渴求。哪怕这些信息令人不适，人类也极度珍视获取资讯的渠道；此外，这符合成瘾机制的典型特征——理智明确知道它有害健康，深层的成瘾冲动依然会强推着人重蹈覆辙。 史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）补充提到，书中曾引用过一个惊人数据：离开社交媒体给心理健康带来的增益，甚至相当于在职场中获得了 30,000 美元的巨额加薪。沙罗特对此进一步解释，这项关于 Facebook 早期推广的研究由一位意大利学者完成。2004 年 Facebook 刚推出时仅局限在哈佛大学，随后逐步推广至常春藤盟校，直到 2008 年向全球开放。由于各大高校定期监测学生的心理福祉数据，研究者对比发现，Facebook 进驻每一所大学的时间节点，都精准对应着该校学生心理健康水平的断崖式下滑。 ### [01:28:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=5297s) 社交媒体与心理健康：相关性与因果性的科学博弈 塔利·沙罗特（Tali Sharot）继续深入剖析社交媒体对心理健康的影响机制，重点辨析了流行病学统计与受控实验之间的证据差异。自 Facebook 问世并在各大大学校园推广以来的十年间，全美大学生乃至普通人群的心理健康水平普遍下滑，抑郁症发病率飙升了 80%。有学者运用复杂的统计学模型推算，青年群体心理健康恶化的原因中，可能有大约四分之一（25%）直接归咎于社交媒体的普及。然而，沙罗特严谨地强调，这类宏观追踪仅能确立“相关性”，即便数据模型再精细，也不能直接等同于“因果性”。 相比之下，经济学家亨特·奥尔科特（Hunt Allcott）所主导的去习惯化实验在科学说服力上更胜一筹。由于奥尔科特通过随机对照试验直接干预被试者的上网行为——人为操纵受试者是否戒断 Facebook 并量化情绪波动，该研究得以直接验证其间的“因果关系”。尽管宏观上归因于社交媒体导致 25% 抑郁上升的结论仍属相关性范畴，但沙罗特承认，多方研究互相印证，说明社交媒体对心理健康的负面侵蚀确实蕴含着不容忽视的事实真相。 - **Facebook 普及与抑郁激增**：自 2008 年 Facebook 铺开后的十年间，抑郁发作事件（depression episodes）增加了 80%。 - **宏观模型归因**：统计学方法估计，年轻人群中心理健康下滑幅度的约 25%（四分之一）可能由社交媒体直接或间接诱发。 - **因果对照实验**：亨特·奥尔科特（Hunt Allcott）的实验通过直接随机控制受试者脱网状态，为戒断社交媒体能够改善心理健康提供了明确的因果关系证据。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 社交媒体对心理健康影响的研究证据对比 accDescr: 对比宏观统计研究的相关性与受控实验的因果性证据 subgraph Correlational["宏观相关性研究"] A["Facebook等平台普及 (2008年起)"] --> B["10年内抑郁发作率激增 80%"] B --> C["模型估算：约 25% 心理下滑与社媒相关"] end subgraph Causal["随机受控实验 (Hunt Allcott)"] D["主动干预：随机分配离线/在线组"] --> E["直接测量脱网对幸福感指标的改变"] E --> F["确立因果关系：戒除社媒可提升心理健康"] end ``` --- ### [01:29:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=5357s) 传统提问：当下即可改善生活的微小举动 访谈进入尾声，史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）引出了《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）的招牌闭幕传统：由上一位作客嘉宾在不知晓后继者身份的情况下留下一个问题，并由下一位嘉宾作答。本次留给沙罗特的问题是：“基于你所掌握的知识，听众此时此刻可以做哪一件能够切实改善生活的事情？”沙罗特的回答出人意料地返璞归真，避开了复杂的神经科学理论，而是提出了一个立刻就能执行的温暖行动。 沙罗特建议听众现在就放下思虑，发一封邮件、拨通一通电话，或者直接转过身面向身边的某个人，看着他们并真诚地表达“我爱你”（tell them they love them）。她坦言，这样一个微小的举措或许不会彻底颠覆一个人的整个人生轨迹，但它所带来的情感回馈是立竿见影的——在说出口的那一瞬间，你和对方内心的感受与情绪状态都会被瞬间重塑。史蒂芬对此深受触动，由衷感谢沙罗特的分享，盛赞她的研究不仅引人入胜，更是“对全人类的一项崇高奉献”（a real service to humanity）。 --- ### [01:30:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=5409s) 尾声赞助与后续推荐 在节目的最后，史蒂芬带来了长期赞助商及其实际投资品牌 Huel 的最新动态。史蒂芬回忆起两三年前坐在 Huel 董事会会议室里的情景，当时研发团队面临的核心痛点就是如何攻克全营养棒的技术难关：既要提供全方位的均衡营养成分，涵盖 27 种必需维生素和矿物质，同时还要保持极低的含糖量与绝佳的风味口感。经历数年的打磨迭代，Huel 终于推出了全新的 Complete Nutrition Bar。 史蒂芬幽默地展示了手头仅存的一根包装已被撕开一半的能量棒，笑称这批新品昨天刚刚寄到办公室，就被整个团队瞬间哄抢一空；这最后一根还是同事正准备下嘴时被旁人紧急大喊制止才保住的，专门留作今天录制广告的道具。他补充道，虽然很多粉丝一直发私信催促 Huel Daily Greens 复合蔬菜粉何时在英国上市，但在该产品正式登陆英国之前，这款最新上市且美味饱腹的营养棒绝对值得一试。最后，史蒂芬向观众推荐了说明栏中附带的相关单集播客，鼓励大家继续探索神经科学与个人成长的深度对话。 ## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=0s) 当某样东西一直摆在你面前时，你就彻底不再关注它了 — Tali Sharot > [10:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=604s) 周一让人热血沸腾的事物，到了周五便会索然无味 — Tali Sharot > [20:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=1211s) Pleasure results from incomplete and intermittent satisfaction of desires — Tibor Scitovsky > [33:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2038s) 设想你度过了人生中最完美的一天：清晨醒来吃着梦寐以求的最棒早餐，与你最爱的人在一起，做着最热衷的活动，晚上看最喜欢的电影。整整一天都被你最爱的事物填满。但如果你第二天醒来做完全一样的事，第三天、第四天依然如法炮制，几周下来，那个曾经‘最完美的一天’将不再带来哪怕一丝喜悦，甚至会让人感到抑郁。 — Tali Sharot > [41:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=2473s) run back to your old life, do a U-turn — Tali Sharot > [57:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=3478s) The good things you chop up, the bad things you want to swallow whole — Tali Sharot > [01:12:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=4361s) make a dent in the universe — Steve Jobs > [01:16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=4562s) creates a change in your world — Tali Sharot > [01:24:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=5074s) 天哪，原来刚刚的环境让人这么烦躁，世界竟然可以如此清静。 — Tali Sharot > [01:29:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g&t=5357s) a real service to humanity — Steven Bartlett ## Mentioned Tali Sharot, Steven Bartlett, Look Again: The Power of Noticing What was Always There, The 33 Laws Of Business & Life, Ignaz Paul Vitalis Troxler, House Gospel Choir, Tibor Scitovsky, Cass Sunstein, Aaron Heller, Hunt Allcott, Alex Honnold, Steve Jobs, Simon Sinek, Huel, ZOE, WHOOP, Science, The New York Times, Facebook, Instagram, Twitter ## Video description If you enjoyed this episode, I recommend you check out my first conversation with Dr. Tali Sharot, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=0DZK1nawEXQ 00:00 Intro 02:13 Who Are You? 03:13 How to Become the Person You Want to Be 05:14 Why Making Progress Has a Huge Motivational Impact on Us 06:54 The Importance of Variety in Our Workplace 08:27 What Is Habituation & How It Impacts Our Happiness 19:09 The Problem of Habituation with Our Partners and Sex Life 24:02 How to Keep Your Relationship Exciting 29:16 Midlife Crisis: Is It a Real Thing? 34:46 What Is Our Best Life & How to Find Happiness 36:53 The Surprising Link Between Habituation and Mental Health 42:40 The Science of How to Keep Teams Motivated & Creative 48:29 The Power of Taking Breaks and Small Changes 49:53 Here's How the Brain Tricks You to Believe Things That Aren't True 55:36 Checklist to Dehabituate Your Life 59:57 The Problem of Social Media and High Expectations 01:06:17 How to Achieve Your Goals 01:12:41 Why Incentives Work 01:16:02 Why Gen Z Wants to Change the World 01:19:32 How to Take Risks: Benefits & Disadvantages 01:24:34 Your Life & Work Are Better Than You Think; You Just Don't See It 01:27:26 The Impact of Quitting Social Media 01:29:17 Last Guest Question You can pre-order Dr. Sharot’s new book, ‘Look Again: The Power of Noticing What was Always There’, here: https://amzn.to/3QSU77i My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now: https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Listen on: Apple podcast - https://podcasts.apple.com/gb/podcast/the-diary-of-a-ceo-by-steven-bartlett/id1291423644 Spotify - https://open.spotify.com/show/7iQXmUT7XGuZSzAMjoNWlX Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGq-a57w-aPwyi3pW7XLiHw/join FOLLOW ► Instagram: https://www.instagram.com/steven/ Twitter: https://x.com/StevenBartlett?s=20 Linkedin: https://www.linkedin.com/in/steven-bartlett-56986834/ Brand Sponsors: Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb ZOE: http://joinzoe.com with an exclusive code CEO10 for 10% off WHOOP: https://join.whoop.com/en-uk/CEO [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=7KTwmEGsY5g)

[0:00] Tali Sharot: 当某样东西一直摆在你面前时，你就彻底不再关注它了 [10:04] Tali Sharot: 周一让人热血沸腾的事物，到了周五便会索然无味 [20:11] Tibor Scitovsky: Pleasure results from incomplete and intermittent satisfaction of desires [33:58] Tali Sharot: 设想你度过了人生中最完美的一天：清晨醒来吃着梦寐以求的最棒早餐，与你最爱的人在一起，做着最热衷的活动，晚上看最喜欢的电影。整整一天都被你最爱的事物填满。但如果你第二天醒来做完全一样的事，第三天、第四天依然如法炮制，几周下来，那个曾经‘最完美的一天’将不再带来哪怕一丝喜悦，甚至会让人感到抑郁。 [41:13] Tali Sharot: run back to your old life, do a U-turn [57:58] Tali Sharot: The good things you chop up, the bad things you want to swallow whole [72:41] Steve Jobs: make a dent in the universe [76:02] Tali Sharot: creates a change in your world [84:34] Tali Sharot: 天哪，原来刚刚的环境让人这么烦躁，世界竟然可以如此清静。 [89:17] Steven Bartlett: a real service to humanity

[19:08] Dr. Tali Sharot: Pleasure results from incomplete and intermittent satisfaction of desires. [72:41] Dr. Tali Sharot: Steve Jobs had this saying about making a dent in the universe. I think a lot of people want to do that... but it could also be how you affect your family or how you raise your children. Those are the kinds of things that continue even when you're not there.

[0:00] what advice would you give me to make [0:01] sure that my relationship stays fresh [0:03] and new and spicy actually there's a [0:05] great study that when people their [0:08] sexual desire for the partner goes up Dr [0:11] tally Sher she's a neuroscientist author [0:14] one of the world's leading researchers [0:16] On Emotion decision making and how to [0:18] change our brains for the better this is [0:20] negatively affecting your life and you [0:22] don't know it we have a study where we [0:24] asked people what was your favorite part [0:26] on your vacation and we found the peak [0:29] of enjoyment was 43 hours into the [0:32] vacation and people used one word more [0:34] than any other word and it was the word [0:36] first the first view of the ocean the [0:38] first cocktail and then the joy goes [0:40] down and down and down why it's because [0:43] the input into your neurons is constant [0:45] and when things are not changing our [0:48] brain just stops responding and the [0:50] problem is that even if you're living [0:52] your absolute best life great [0:54] relationship a good job comfortable home [0:57] after a while those things don't bring [0:59] us the joy that they should cuz when [1:02] something is always in front of you you [1:04] stop attending to it that's true also [1:07] for the not so great thing around us [1:09] sexism racism cracks in our [1:11] relationships after a while we don't [1:13] notice them and if we don't notice them [1:14] we don't change them one reason why [1:17] happiness is low in midlife is because [1:20] things are a little bit more routine the [1:22] problem is we really don't like Risk [1:24] taking so how do we change that two main [1:27] things one is [1:31] quick one this is really really [1:32] fascinating to me on the back end of our [1:34] YouTube channel it says that [1:37] 69.9% of you that watch this channel [1:39] frequently over the lifetime of this [1:40] channel haven't yet hit the Subscribe [1:42] button I just wanted to ask you a favor [1:44] it helps this channel so much if you [1:46] choose to subscribe helps us scale the [1:48] guest helps us scale the production and [1:50] it makes the show bigger so if I could [1:51] ask you for one favor if you've watched [1:53] the show before and you've enjoyed it [1:55] and you like this episode that you're [1:56] currently watching could you please hit [1:58] the Subscribe button thank you so much [2:00] and I will repay that gesture by making [2:02] sure that everything we do here gets [2:04] better and better and better and better [2:05] that is a promise I'm willing to make [2:06] you do we have a [2:07] [Music] [2:14] deal [2:15] tell welcome back thank you for having [2:18] me back to be here for those people that [2:21] aren't familiar with your career can you [2:24] give us a little bit of an overview of [2:26] your academic background but really I [2:28] guess the summary of the mission that [2:30] you're on and the work that you've done [2:32] what are you trying to understand what [2:33] is it that you're you're trying to do [2:34] with your professional life so in very [2:37] general terms I'm trying to understand [2:39] human behavior why do people do what [2:41] they do why do they feel the way that [2:44] they do um and I use a lot of different [2:47] methods to try to understand that so I [2:49] use Neuroscience method I really kind of [2:51] try to look inside people's brains also [2:54] I look at Behavior so I'm kind of [2:56] combining psychology brain science I [2:58] also combine economics to try to [3:01] understand motives to try to understand [3:04] needs um and hopefully use that not only [3:08] for us to understand human brains better [3:10] but also to make our life better perhaps [3:12] make better decisions for anyone that's [3:15] listening to this right now that is has [3:17] a vision of who they want to become and [3:20] it's different from who they currently [3:21] are in some way habits behaviors they [3:23] want to adopt is step one awareness is [3:27] that step one awareness of your own CES [3:30] and thoughts and patterns one thing you [3:33] should concentrate on and be aware of is [3:36] what is already good about yourself [3:38] right so not only what do I want to [3:41] become which I'm not but what am I which [3:44] is great what already great skills I [3:48] have right personality traits I have [3:50] because those are things that you can [3:52] build on right and so look at it not [3:55] only in this kind of negative way but [3:56] look at it in a positive ways and so [3:59] once once you've that yes then we can [4:00] say okay this is my goal right and the [4:03] next thing is how do I go from where I [4:05] am to this goal and if you have a [4:09] specific plan and you you're not [4:11] necessarily going to follow that exact [4:13] plan right but if you have a plan and [4:15] you kind of really think through the [4:17] details what happens is that if you can [4:20] imagine that vividly that will then [4:23] create your belief that it's more likely [4:26] to happen right if we have a specific [4:28] plan concrete that makes a feel it's [4:30] more likely to happen and if we think [4:32] it's more likely to happen we're more [4:34] likely to follow through and then [4:37] there's a lot of little tricks of how to [4:39] get us to follow through uh one really [4:42] important one is looking at your [4:45] progress so say you want to go to the [4:47] gym [4:49] and at the first week you only go once a [4:51] week and then the next week you go twice [4:53] a week or maybe when you're go you go [4:55] the first time you go you're only [4:56] running on the treadmill for 10 minutes [4:58] right and then next time 20 minutes but [5:01] put down those numbers so you can [5:03] actually see them cuz when people can [5:05] actually see their progress that is [5:07] extremely motivating right you always [5:10] want to be a little bit above from where [5:12] you were so that's that's one thing [5:14] that's hugely important is there sort of [5:17] scientific research that supports this [5:19] idea that progress has a very sort of [5:22] motivational impact on people yes [5:24] absolutely there are great studies one [5:26] study that I'm thinking of um was where [5:30] people had to do a task which required [5:33] them to learn the rules and they would [5:36] get money um rewards for doing it well [5:39] and every so often they ask people how [5:42] are you feeling right now what they [5:44] found is yes when people got rewards [5:45] when they got money they were feeling [5:46] good but turns out that they felt the [5:48] best when they learned something new [5:51] right when they [5:52] progressed that's when they were really [5:54] feeling the best and there was there's [5:57] another study in which people could play [5:59] one of two games one game all the rules [6:02] were clear it was really easy for them [6:05] to do the best that they could do in [6:07] another game there was a bit of [6:09] uncertainty they had to learn it wasn't [6:11] clear right it was challenging to some [6:13] some respect and they could play those [6:15] two games and then every every few [6:17] minutes they said okay you could stay in [6:19] this game or you can move to the other [6:20] game what they found is people liked to [6:23] play the game where they had to learn [6:24] where there was uncertainty they did not [6:26] like to play the game where they always [6:28] did well where there were not [6:29] progressing where there's nothing to [6:31] learn so progress is really something [6:34] that we strive for and when it happens [6:37] that really makes us feel better right [6:41] it makes us feel like we're moving [6:43] forward we don't like this St even if [6:45] where you are is great right really [6:48] really great after a while it's not [6:51] enough right you want to expand you want [6:54] to progress those subject matters appear [6:56] in your new book look again when you're [6:58] talking about the import of variety in [7:00] our lives and it really shows up in all [7:03] aspects of Our Lives this need for [7:04] variety um which you're kind of talking [7:06] about there people want to try something [7:09] new they want to learn something new [7:10] they want to be stimulated in some way [7:12] it's very true in work you talk about [7:14] that a lot and as an employer really [7:15] kind of hit me that one of the [7:18] most effective things I could do to keep [7:20] my team members motivated would probably [7:23] be to like change their jobs quite often [7:26] or at least add new elements to their [7:28] responsibilities quite often [7:31] yeah what the book is about is about [7:33] habituation and habituation is basically [7:35] the phenomena which governs basically [7:39] every part of our brain which is we [7:40] don't respond to things that don't [7:42] change when things are constant where [7:44] they're not changing our brain just [7:46] stops responding and once you do change [7:49] things around even a little bit then we [7:52] start responding [7:53] again and at work you know it's often [7:57] the case in in big companies for example [7:59] that people will take employees and will [8:01] let them rotate through different [8:03] divisions once in a while right because [8:05] if you're staying at the same place [8:07] doing the same thing over and over and [8:09] over and over again you become [8:12] complacent to some extent right but once [8:14] you change you're now talking to maybe a [8:16] little different people maybe the [8:18] projects are a little bit [8:20] different then you start you start [8:23] encoding again it also enhances your [8:27] creativity the word habitu is quite a [8:30] long word I'm sure most people won't be [8:31] familiar with the word probably never [8:33] heard it before I didn't hear about [8:34] habituation until I was doing a lot of [8:36] research ahead of my book and came [8:38] across a lot of your research but a [8:40] really interesting way to [8:43] illustrate what habit habituation is is [8:46] with images like this now tell me tell [8:49] me what's going on here we're going to [8:51] put this image on the screen and also [8:52] for those that of you that are listening [8:54] on audio there will be a link to this [8:56] image in the description of this episode [8:59] but essentially when you look at this [9:00] image in the center of this image for 30 [9:03] seconds especially when you're looking [9:04] at it on a computer screen all of the [9:07] colors disappear if you stay focused on [9:09] that black dot in the middle of this [9:11] image for 30 seconds so this was a [9:14] discovery by um a Austrian physi [9:17] physician in 1804 what he discovered is [9:20] that if you look you have to not move [9:22] your eyes so fixate on the black cross [9:26] and don't move your eyes the colors fade [9:30] away they become gray and if you're [9:32] really good at this I've done this a few [9:33] times and I was I was able to do this [9:35] actually the gray goes away and the [9:37] whole thing just becomes [9:38] white why is that it's because the input [9:42] into your neurons if you're not moving [9:43] your eyes um is constant so the neurons [9:46] are just getting the same input so they [9:48] stop responding they're like well [9:50] there's nothing new here you know let's [9:52] save our resources for something else [9:53] that's going to come along so you stop [9:56] noticing the color all together and that [9:59] that is habituation now once you move [10:01] your [10:02] eyes color comes back right or if [10:04] anything moves in the background like [10:05] yeah well you do yeah yeah so then um if [10:08] you're moving your eyes then the input [10:11] into different norns change and then you [10:13] consciously perceive the colors again [10:15] and I think it's the same in our life if [10:18] everything is constant we don't perceive [10:20] the good and we don't perceive the bad [10:22] but if we move our eyes enough you know [10:26] metaphorically then we'll start noticing [10:29] and Feeling Again do all animals do this [10:32] habituation thing yeah so it's something [10:34] really fundamental you see this in every [10:37] living creature um and I think to me [10:40] that's what's so interesting about this [10:43] right because something that seems to [10:47] affect every part of our life from our [10:51] relationships to our mental health to [10:54] our ability to innovate you can actually [10:57] track it down and you can see it's in [11:00] every living animal there's this [11:04] habituation the fact that neurons [11:05] respond less and less to things that [11:07] don't change right and that's true for [11:10] things just like sound if you hear the [11:13] same sound again and again and again and [11:15] again you're no longer conscious of it [11:16] you're no longer responding to it so [11:19] that's just perceptual habituation but [11:21] habituation is also true for the [11:24] fundamental things in our life that we [11:25] really care about and this is why people [11:28] can have really great things in their [11:30] life and I'm sure you do right maybe [11:32] like a great relationship a good job or [11:35] a comfortable home but what's [11:36] interesting is that after a while those [11:39] things don't bring us the Daily joy that [11:42] they should right because we kind of [11:44] habituate it to it sort of like what [11:47] what is thrilling on Monday becomes [11:48] boring on Friday and the interesting [11:50] thing is that's true also for the not so [11:54] great thing around us so there might be [11:56] bad things around us like uh sexism RAC [11:59] RAC ISM cracks in our relationships or [12:01] inefficiencies at work but if they're [12:03] there all the time after a while we [12:05] don't notice them and if we don't notice [12:06] them we don't try to change them where [12:09] does this come from this this idea that [12:12] once we're exposed to something we kind [12:14] of phase out and can't see it [12:17] anymore it's because if something is in [12:20] front of us for a while and we're still [12:22] alive nothing bad happened right then [12:25] the brain doesn't really need to respond [12:27] to it anymore because the brain's trying [12:30] to conserve resources right right we [12:31] need the resources to be ready for the [12:34] new thing that is coming your way right [12:37] which can be threatening or it could [12:38] also be really great like you know food [12:41] or something that you should grab um and [12:46] that's that's basically why we stop [12:48] responding of course if someone [12:50] something is hurting you right you will [12:52] continue responding to that which is why [12:53] it's it's it's a little bit difficult to [12:56] habituate to pain that's one to pain [12:58] yeah [12:59] mhm what are some of your um your [13:02] favorite examples of everyday [13:04] habituation of everyday habituation yeah [13:07] like things that yeah yeah I told you [13:09] mine before we started recording which [13:10] was um if I go to the gym and then I [13:13] come home I can no longer smell myself [13:16] because you can I can smell myself for [13:18] maybe a couple of minutes when I'm [13:19] working out that I'm like getting hot [13:20] and sweaty but then once I'm around [13:22] myself for like 10 minutes I guess my [13:24] brain is just no longer sending the [13:26] signal from my armpits to my through my [13:28] nasal recept is to my brain yeah so [13:31] smell is is really a good one CU that [13:33] happens really really fast right so if [13:36] you put a perfume in yourself it really [13:38] smells strongly but then you put the [13:40] same perfume a day later you don't smell [13:41] it as much a week later you don't smell [13:43] it that much so those are really easy to [13:46] see around us but I think to me the more [13:49] interesting ones are habituating to [13:52] things that we um enjoy a lot and then [13:56] we enjoy less and less and less and [13:58] things that are really bad but we stop [14:01] noticing so for example there's a great [14:02] study in which uh people were asked to [14:05] think about a song that they like tell [14:07] me a song that you like or even an [14:09] artist that you like oh gosh there's one [14:10] I'm listening to at the moment house [14:11] Gospel Choir angels watching over me [14:15] okay would you prefer to hear that song [14:17] from beginning to end no interruptions [14:20] or would you prefer to hear it with [14:22] breaks with breaks yeah I don't want to [14:25] hear it with breakes okay you want to [14:26] hear it the the full thing the full [14:28] thing right and you think you would [14:29] enjoy it more correct yeah okay 99% of [14:32] people say exactly what you say right [14:33] I'm going to enjoy the song more if I [14:35] just hear I listen to it continuously [14:37] with no breaks but [14:40] counterintuitively when the study was [14:41] conducted it was shown that people [14:44] actually end up enjoying a song more if [14:47] there are Breaks by breaks you mean they [14:50] just put gaps in it gaps in it and in [14:51] fact what's more interesting is not only [14:54] did they put caps for different groups [14:56] of people they did different things [14:57] doing the gaps maybe there's quiet it [14:59] maybe there's an annoying noise and it [15:00] didn't matter what they did in the gaps [15:02] when you had gaps in the song people [15:04] enjoyed it more which is really [15:06] counteractive right and they were [15:07] willing to pay twice as much to hear [15:10] that song in concert so why is that so [15:15] if you hear a song that you really like [15:16] it's really joyful but it turns out that [15:19] over the whatever two minutes three [15:20] minutes four minutes of the song The Joy [15:22] kind of goes down you habituate a little [15:24] bit right if you have a break your the [15:27] joy is quite High and then it starts [15:29] going down there's a break and so then [15:32] you go back up right right and so you [15:35] habituate a little bit but then you go [15:37] back up so overall you're enjoying the [15:40] music more and they did the same with [15:42] massages so what do you prefer a 1 hour [15:45] massage or 20 minutes massage break 20 [15:49] minutes massage break 20 minutes massage [15:50] break the 1 hour massage why again [15:53] everyone says I prefer the one hour [15:54] massage but again when they did the [15:56] study and they ask people how much did [15:58] you enjoy it the group who had breaks [16:00] ended up enjoying it more so what you're [16:02] saying is we need to put more bloody [16:04] adverts in this podcast that's exactly [16:06] what I this was exactly what I was [16:09] thinking people are loving the adverts [16:11] because you think you're you know [16:12] intellectually you think oh these ads [16:14] are annoying but I think what's [16:17] happening and you know no one's actually [16:18] done this this exact experiment but they [16:21] should I think that in fact people may [16:23] enjoy your podcast more with the ads [16:26] even if you kind even if they go through [16:27] it like that it's Gap it is possible and [16:31] that was my thought exactly comments now [16:32] like we [ __ ] don't want anymore yeah [16:36] they're so interesting and one of my [16:38] favorite examples is actually [16:39] vacation so holidays um so I did um I [16:43] was working on this project with a big [16:46] uh tourism company in the UK and they [16:48] wanted to know what makes people enjoy [16:51] holidays the most right when do they [16:54] enjoy the holiday the most and why so we [16:58] did survey and we went on these resorts [17:00] to interview people and we found two [17:02] interesting things the first was that [17:05] the peak of enjoyment was 43 hours into [17:09] the [17:10] vacation and why is that well we think [17:13] the reason is that first you get to the [17:15] resort and then you have to unpack you [17:18] know all of that and then you start [17:20] really enjoying it and then the joy goes [17:22] down and down and down over time you're [17:25] still enjoying your holiday a lot but [17:28] the peak is with in 43 hours and then [17:30] the related second uh bit of data that [17:33] we saw is that when we asked people what [17:36] was your favorite part of the vacation [17:38] people used one word more than any other [17:40] word and it was the word first so they [17:43] said the first view of the ocean the [17:46] first dip in the water first [17:48] cocktail right they enjoyed the second [17:51] time they went into the pool the third [17:53] time but they enjoyed the first the most [17:56] because firsts are kind of Novel right [17:59] and then you habituate the second time [18:00] you enjoy it a little bit less than the [18:01] third time enjo late you're still [18:02] enjoying it but not as much as the first [18:05] time so does that mean that for holidays [18:07] in I think you argue this point in the [18:09] book you do yeah about instead of doing [18:12] you know four week holidays it's much [18:13] better to do weekend breaks because if [18:16] it's 42 hours or so that's optimal [18:18] enjoyment right so you're trying to [18:20] think about how can I maximize my [18:21] enjoyment right and when it comes to [18:23] Vacation maybe one one good idea is [18:27] instead of going for a twoe vacation [18:29] during the year maybe you know have a [18:31] few long weekends vacations now of [18:34] course if you're flying somewhere far [18:36] then you might not be able to do it it's [18:38] a cost and so on but you might consider [18:40] instead of going to the farway vacation [18:42] for two weeks maybe you want to go [18:44] somewhere closer to home but have more [18:46] of them because then you get more firsts [18:49] you Al also get more afterglows so [18:52] that's when you coming back from [18:53] vacation and you're still happy because [18:55] you were just on vacation and you're [18:56] also getting more of the anticip a of [18:59] the vacation interesting which is hugely [19:02] beneficial for your wellbeing the [19:04] anticipation part before um you're [19:07] actually even there at the resort or [19:10] wherever you're going I mean this begs [19:11] the question about the other thing we [19:13] habituate to which a lot of us don't [19:14] want to admit which is our partners and [19:19] our sex lives two things I've talked a [19:22] lot on this podcast about um as it [19:24] relates to things that we kind of get [19:25] used to and then no longer can get the [19:27] same level of I don't know pleasure [19:30] happiness appreciation gratitude from um [19:34] does it apply to relationships and sex [19:36] yeah so I think it does and I think the [19:38] solution is very similar breaks and I [19:41] don't mean like a relationship break [19:43] right what I mean is have you know an [19:46] evening for yourself go on a weekend [19:49] perhaps on your own and then when you [19:51] come back everything kind of resp [19:53] sparkles is there any data to prove this [19:55] CU it's a feeling something that we all [19:57] know intuitively like and my partner [19:59] both know that when we're spending time [20:01] apart is good for our relationship every [20:03] relationship knows that it's good for [20:04] our sex life it's good for our our [20:07] appreciation of each other but is there [20:09] any data that supports this yes and I [20:11] I'll tell you what the data is which is [20:13] so obvious you think is like why do [20:15] people even do a study about this but [20:17] there's one study and it simply shows [20:19] that when people are away from their [20:21] partner their desire their sexual desire [20:23] for the partner goes up what is it about [20:26] our partner going away that makes us [20:28] want the it's related to habituation [20:30] right but it's also related to where [20:32] your attention is when something is [20:34] always in front of you you sort of stop [20:37] attending to it because it's always [20:40] there and so your brain then goes okay [20:43] what else do I need to get right but if [20:46] they're not there then your attention [20:49] can go back to them and then there is a [20:52] more basic level of how pleasure works [20:56] there's this great quote by the econ [20:59] Tyber kovski and he says that pleasure [21:02] results from incomplete and intermittent [21:05] satisfaction of desires right incomplete [21:08] yes so the idea is that you always [21:11] wanting a little bit more okay right [21:13] intimidate meaning there's breaks and [21:15] then you always and it's incomplete [21:17] because you always want a little bit [21:19] more and I think that quote is you can [21:22] apply it to almost everything right even [21:26] to food there's an another um fun [21:30] experiment where they have two groups [21:32] and one group was given mac and cheese [21:34] to eat which they really liked every day [21:36] for you know a few weeks and of course [21:39] they like the mac and cheese of the [21:40] first day they liked it in the second [21:41] day but after a while they couldn't you [21:43] know they couldn't see mac and cheese [21:44] anymore they really did not want mac and [21:45] cheese um while the other group got mac [21:47] and cheese just once a week and they [21:49] enjoyed the MC and cheese much more [21:51] right and so it's true for food it's [21:55] true for music it's true for our [21:57] relationships it's rof [21:59] fications what's that type what's that [22:01] restaurant where they the chef brings [22:04] you I don't know like 13 different [22:06] courses of food oh that's too much so [22:08] that's not good okay so here's here's [22:10] what I think about choices um you first [22:14] of all you don't want to give people no [22:16] choice at all right so if there's a [22:19] restaurant where you get no choice at [22:20] all I don't think that is overall a good [22:23] idea I mean what you could do for [22:24] example if you want if you want to have [22:26] a restaurant where there's an option [22:28] that the chef decides still make it a [22:31] choice right so you can have on the menu [22:34] Chef's Choice but I'm still you know [22:36] sitting there and deciding okay the chef [22:39] is going to choose for me but that's [22:40] still my choice why does that matter [22:42] because um it is well known that first [22:47] having a choice is really important for [22:49] people's sense of control and for for [22:51] their enjoyment and once they choose [22:53] something they like it better than if [22:56] someone else Cho for them they really [22:58] you know one thing that we really don't [23:00] like humans really don't like and [23:02] actually other animals as well is having [23:04] no agency having no choice that causes [23:08] anxiety so we do want to make sure that [23:11] people have a choice at the same time [23:15] you don't want to have too many options [23:18] because that can be overwhelming right [23:20] there's the um famous uh experiment [23:23] where people are given an option to [23:24] choose between 60 different jams and [23:27] some people are so overwhelmed they just [23:29] leave the store empty-handed so you [23:32] don't want to go to right too much [23:34] choice that could be just overwhelming [23:37] because there's you know for like too [23:39] much cognitive resources right anything [23:42] that that we do that [23:44] requires an amount of cognitive resource [23:47] that is above some kind of threshold can [23:49] feel [23:50] aversive right so having a choice where [23:52] you have to choose too many things [23:53] that's not good on the other hand not [23:56] being able to choose any [23:59] that's not good either so you want to be [24:01] somewhere in in the middle going back to [24:04] this this subject matter of [24:06] relationships what advice would you give [24:08] me based on everything you know about [24:09] habituation to make sure that my [24:11] relationship stays spicy and uh we go [24:16] the long term what things can I you know [24:18] what do I need to be aware of what what [24:19] things can I do okay so just thinking [24:21] about like habituation related things [24:24] yeah I would say two main things one is [24:27] breaks [24:29] meaning having some distance once in a [24:32] while right okay and the second is doing [24:35] new things together okay right because [24:38] if you're always doing the same thing [24:41] over and over and over which couples [24:42] sometimes do there are like a few things [24:44] that they like to do right because it's [24:46] hard because each person has their own [24:49] preferences of what they like and then [24:50] you find an overlap and that overlap is [24:53] not necessarily huge so then you just [24:56] you know do the same thing over and over [24:58] so I think as a couple it is good to [25:01] explore and I don't don't necessarily [25:02] mean like sexually but just everything [25:04] like what type of movies you're going to [25:06] watch and you know what type of [25:07] activities and that can also expand your [25:12] experiences together right on the point [25:14] of sex so I do think sex can get boring [25:16] if you don't constantly try new things [25:18] it's just it's if you plan to be with [25:20] someone for 50 years finding new things [25:23] to try is [25:25] work to be honest and I guess life is [25:28] work so it's work worth doing you know [25:30] I'm almost almost I know almost five [25:32] years into my relationship with a little [25:33] bit of a gap in between and it's a [25:37] conversation we've had a lot which is [25:38] how do we keep things fresh and new and [25:41] interesting and spicy because like any [25:43] couple or like any people you fall into [25:46] as you say like Comfort habits we go to [25:49] this restaurant because we know it and [25:50] they know us you know you go to this [25:52] place because you know the place and you [25:54] that's your favorite restaurant there or [25:56] whatever you watch this thing on TV you [25:58] follow this okay this cycle of Monday to [26:02] Monday to Sunday Monday we do this then [26:04] Saturday and Sunday we do this you know [26:07] and it can be it can the monotony can [26:09] seem to take a joy out of life right yes [26:11] and I think you want a little bit of [26:13] balance so some of this kind of routine [26:16] and things you're familiar with there's [26:18] something nice about that as well right [26:20] so it's not I'm not saying every weekend [26:23] do something completely new right but [26:25] just so you have your kind of routines [26:27] and then [26:29] you know you insert some novel [26:31] activities or something something new so [26:34] it's it's kind of a BAL a balance [26:36] between exploring new things but also [26:37] exploiting the things that you enjoy do [26:40] you think there's a because I was [26:42] thinking about it as you were speaking [26:44] about men and women if there's a [26:45] difference in their ability to habituate [26:48] and in my experience maybe that's just [26:51] because I've always been the man in the [26:53] situation um I'm less likely to seek [26:57] spontaneity I think in terms of like [27:00] coming up with new ideas for places us [27:01] to go my girlfriend she's so like let's [27:04] go to this flower thing let's go to this [27:06] then let's go to this play Let's go over [27:07] here she's very explorative so I was [27:10] just wondering if there was a variance [27:11] you'd ever seen in any research about a [27:13] man's ability to habituate versus a [27:15] woman's no I haven't so I don't [27:18] necessarily think there is and I don't [27:20] necessarily think that it is a case that [27:22] men are more explor explorative or more [27:26] um exploring but and this is not Based [27:30] on data this is just my observation I [27:32] often hear that people say I like to [27:36] explore but my partner yeah likes to do [27:39] the same or I like to just do the same [27:41] all the time but my partner likes to [27:43] explore I hear this again and again it's [27:44] true in my own relationship my my [27:46] co-author C Einstein who wrote the book [27:48] with me um he also says exactly the same [27:51] right so for him he likes to exploit and [27:54] his wife likes to explore for me it's [27:56] like I like to explore my husband likes [27:58] to exploit and I hear this again and [27:59] again and that makes me think that it is [28:02] not a [28:03] coincidence um that is perhaps the case [28:06] that people who like to explore end up [28:09] with people who like to exploit because [28:12] to do the best that we can in life we [28:14] need to do bothh so maybe it is you know [28:18] this balance interesting to individuals [28:21] because if you're left on your own and [28:22] just exploring all the [28:24] time you might not get to the optimal [28:26] balance in life MH if you're exploiting [28:29] all the time then you're unlikely to [28:30] find these new things right that will [28:33] actually be great for you you will learn [28:36] gain you pleasure and so on so um it may [28:39] not be a coincidence and I think in in a [28:41] lot of these traits almost every [28:43] psychological trait that you can think [28:45] of they are individual differences you [28:48] can go all the way from one extreme to [28:50] The Other Extreme right if we're talking [28:51] about optimism all the way to pessimism [28:54] exploration all the way to exploitation [28:55] right and everything in the and normally [28:57] it's kind of a bell curve of sorts um [29:00] and I think it's not a coincidence right [29:02] because if you think about a society a [29:04] group a team working together you do [29:07] need these variations for people to push [29:10] each other in different directions such [29:13] that as a team we get to the best that [29:16] we can we can get we talked about [29:18] learning a little bit earlier on and [29:20] about the importance of of change and [29:23] Novelty I'm someone that's just Fallen [29:26] back into the habit of reading books [29:27] again and writing about them and it's [29:29] brought a huge amount of lost joy to my [29:32] life and I and I had almost lost sight [29:34] of it through becoming so busy in my [29:36] professional life I'd lost the um Joy of [29:38] learning new things and because I do [29:41] this podcast as well and it seems to I [29:42] learn so much from speaking to the [29:44] people I speak to but just recently [29:45] getting back into reading books again [29:47] has brought this new sort of excitement [29:48] to my life and your book has is provides [29:51] a lot of evidence as to why that might [29:53] be yeah I think it is it is a case that [29:56] probably you know in recent years people [29:59] are reading less right um and we kind of [30:02] forget the joy of reading whether it is [30:04] fiction or [30:06] non-fiction I think the difference [30:08] between reading a book than watching a [30:10] video is when you read a book there's an [30:13] extra mental activity that you're doing [30:16] which is you're imagining you're [30:18] visualizing right it's also in your own [30:21] pace so you read something and maybe [30:24] that elicit triggers some kind of [30:25] Association in your mind right so you [30:28] might like stop for a little bit and [30:29] then continue so there's so much more [30:32] going on and I think because of that [30:35] when you read a book you can relate that [30:37] more to yourself and to your own life [30:40] right versus I mean watching I mean [30:42] films like that that's great as well but [30:45] that that is a difference right it's [30:47] more about you and your inner [30:50] experiences and memories coming more [30:52] alive and then it also ties to what you [30:55] already know the midlife crisis [30:58] is this a real thing yeah absolutely it [31:01] is well known that stress is the peaks [31:06] in your midlife and happiness um goes [31:10] down in your midlife suicide for example [31:13] Peaks especially for male um in midlife [31:17] definitely like something that we should [31:19] think of and notice um and we don't [31:22] really know for sure why it happens but [31:24] one thing that happens in midlife is [31:26] that you have a lot of stressors coming [31:28] your way um so we're talking about 40s [31:30] and 50s so you have you might need you [31:33] have little kids that you need to take [31:35] care of maybe you have elderly parents [31:37] that you're worried about uh [31:39] professional life has a lot of stressors [31:41] in midlife so that's really a time where [31:44] we see the midlife crisis but one thing [31:46] that we think is that perhaps this is [31:48] also a time that you're not progressing [31:51] as much right so kind of in your 20s and [31:55] so on you learn a lot you gain G skills [31:59] you get to perhaps a good [32:02] position and then it's sort of [32:04] plateauing right for a lot of people it [32:07] can kind of plateau in midlife perhaps [32:10] they have a good job right but they're [32:11] kind of stuck they're not really moving [32:14] as much they're not learning as much [32:17] less variety right things are a little [32:19] bit more routine and that could be one [32:22] reason why happiness is relatively low [32:26] in midlife [32:28] it's also hard to see like what is next [32:30] sometimes right while you're climbing up [32:33] it's you're kind of well this is my goal [32:35] but once you get there it's a little bit [32:37] disappointing to some extent even if [32:39] you've done really well right because as [32:41] we talked before one thing that is [32:43] really important for our happiness is [32:44] kind of us believing that we have [32:47] something to gain something to go [32:49] forward to now why does then happiness [32:52] go back up after midlife right so we [32:55] don't know but here is one speculation [32:57] that at at a certain point in time uh [33:00] maybe you're [33:02] retiring then actually Life Changes [33:04] again right in an odd way there can [33:07] actually be more variety and CH and [33:09] change and learning you need to learn [33:11] how to live life again with this new [33:14] context of not going to work every day [33:16] and you know and you might make [33:18] decisions all sorts of decisions of what [33:20] to do with your time which will require [33:23] you to learn [33:25] again when you get to so say 40 40 50 [33:28] years old you're probably in a [33:30] relationship which you've been in for a [33:33] while there's not that there's not that [33:35] Pursuit your job your career your [33:36] profession your identity your geography [33:39] your house friendship circles are [33:41] probably all well established at that [33:43] point and your hypothesis is that the [33:47] lack of forward motion and the abundance [33:50] of routine means that you lose something [33:54] in life yeah so things are less new [33:57] right [33:58] it's kind of same same same imagine the [34:01] best day of your life you wake up in the [34:04] morning and you eat like the best [34:06] breakfast that you can think of right [34:07] choose and then you you interact with [34:10] the people that you love the most and [34:11] you go do the best activity like what [34:13] you want and you see your favorite movie [34:15] so the whole day is your favorite [34:17] favorite favorite favorite things really [34:19] great and then you wake up the same the [34:21] next day and you do the same and then [34:24] you wake up the next day and you do the [34:25] same right a weekend a few few weeks in [34:28] the best day of your life just doesn't [34:30] elicit as much joy right and also [34:33] there's nothing to learn anymore so even [34:36] if you're living your absolute best life [34:39] if it is the same again and again and [34:41] again and [34:42] again it will eventually be a little bit [34:46] even depressing I would say so that's by [34:50] definition not our best life right so so [34:53] then it is what is our best life so I [34:56] think when people think about [34:58] what my best life is what they're [35:00] thinking about is oh I want that great [35:02] house right I want that great partner I [35:04] want money or you know and then you can [35:07] get all of these things but if they [35:09] remain constant that's just not going to [35:11] be your best life and you can engineer [35:14] this I mean even if it's like midlife [35:16] and everything is set and you're in one [35:17] house and so on for example you can go [35:20] take a course learn something new right [35:23] a new fields that is not your own you [35:26] can go a new sport right there's things [35:29] that you could do go visit places that [35:32] you haven't been try to um make [35:34] connections with people that are a bit [35:36] different from your regular crowd that [35:39] you're interacting with it's a little [35:41] bit hard to do because it's going to [35:42] require effort the easiest thing to do [35:44] is just continue same same same same [35:46] same we assume that happiness will be [35:48] derived from us [35:51] um I almost don't know how to say this [35:53] like from us being on autopilot like if [35:55] we do what Society said you work a job [35:58] you get a partner you create a house you [36:00] we assume that will lead to happiness [36:02] but what you're saying is the research [36:04] shows that we actually need to keep [36:06] almost dismantling or disrupting our own [36:09] experience to to find happiness or to be [36:13] happy I guess we can't find happiness we [36:15] be happy yeah they did a whole bunch of [36:17] surveys to figure out what are the [36:19] factors that are most associated with [36:21] people's happiness and the number one [36:23] was meaning right people who could say I [36:25] have meaning in my life that was number [36:27] one number two was control people who [36:30] felt they have control over their life [36:33] um and I don't remember what number [36:35] income was but it wasn't especially high [36:37] oh I think social so social connections [36:39] was really high as well right so a lot [36:41] of these things were these psychological [36:43] things not necessarily material things [36:47] that really induced uh people's [36:50] happiness and satisfaction from their [36:52] life somewhat linked to that studies [36:54] show that after getting married people [36:56] report to being happier on average yet [36:59] about two years after their honeymoon [37:01] period happiness levels tend to be the [37:03] same as their pre-marriage levels yeah [37:06] so this is a well-known What's called [37:07] the hedonic treadmill oh yeah so the [37:10] hedonic treadmill means that we sort of [37:12] have a basine level of Happiness which [37:15] is determined a lot is genetic it might [37:19] be determined by early childhood [37:21] experiences and we can move from that [37:24] Baseline we can go up if something good [37:26] happens maybe you have a good Rel [37:27] relationship marriage uh you get a [37:29] promotion it can go down if something [37:31] bad happens even [37:33] bement but it turns out that it in most [37:36] cases you climb back to your Baseline [37:40] level of Happiness so these things they [37:42] can go up and they can down and then you [37:44] kind of adapt right um and at you end up [37:50] trying you know and this goes back to [37:51] this idea that we're trying to get all [37:53] these things we think of once I get this [37:56] promotion then I'll be really happy and [37:57] then you get the promotion and it's [37:58] great but then after a while you just go [38:00] back to your Baseline now on on one hand [38:03] this actually is not a bad thing because [38:06] imagine you get your first entry level [38:09] job and people are really happy with [38:11] their first entry level job great but [38:14] imagine I just continue being really [38:15] happy with my first entry-level job [38:17] right I won't be motivated to move [38:20] forward right so this is why habituation [38:24] is there because it's moving us forward [38:26] as an indiv ual and and as a society on [38:30] the other hand it also reduces our joy [38:33] um and it also sometimes causes us not [38:35] to see some of the bad things around us [38:37] because we habituate to that as well [38:40] another reason why habituation is [38:42] important is for your mental health [38:44] right and that's kind of related to what [38:46] we just talked about where bad things [38:48] happen and slowly slowly slowly we adapt [38:51] and we go back to Baseline we are able [38:54] to recover right it's kind of our [38:56] superpower our IM immense ability to [38:59] just bounce back for most individuals [39:02] and what's interesting is that you [39:04] actually see that people with depression [39:07] they habituate much [39:08] slower so there was a great study that [39:11] was conducted in the University of [39:12] Florida by a professor Aaron heler where [39:15] he had students um who just got exam [39:18] results and he asked them how they were [39:20] feeling and then he asked them how they [39:22] were feeling after every 45 minutes for [39:24] the whole day and what he found is when [39:27] people bad results they were feeling bad [39:29] right they're not happy and that's true [39:31] for people who never had depression [39:33] episodes in their life and people who [39:35] were experiencing depression or had [39:36] depression before so everyone was [39:38] feeling bad at the beginning those [39:40] people who did not have any history of [39:42] depression they slowly slowly slowly [39:44] started feeling better from this bad [39:46] grade those with depression also started [39:49] feeling better but much slower right so [39:52] in other words depression is related to [39:56] slow slower habituation slower recovery [40:00] from negative events in your life and [40:03] one reason we think this is is because [40:06] depression is related to going over [40:09] these bad events in your mind again and [40:11] again not letting go right you're kind [40:13] of like chewing over them again and [40:15] again and again and that is something [40:18] that is preventing you from recovering [40:21] and bouncing back from these um aversive [40:26] events if if um habituation [40:29] is causes us [40:32] to lose the joy of our current situation [40:36] then how come as you say in Chapter 2 [40:38] the chapter about variety you say that [40:40] up to 40% of employees resign within the [40:42] first six months of their new job you'd [40:45] think their new job would bring them Joy [40:47] because it was different but up to 40% [40:50] of employees resign within the first six [40:52] months so new things can bring a joory [40:56] because they're different yeah however [40:58] at the same time and this kind of goes [40:59] back to the vacation example that I gave [41:01] you which was people are not the [41:03] happiest when they just get to the [41:04] resort it takes them time right it takes [41:06] them 43 hours to get to the peak Joy why [41:09] because they still need the time to [41:11] adapt right they need to unpack they [41:13] need to get used to this new routine [41:15] same thing with a new job for example so [41:19] on one hand getting a new job you're [41:21] going to learn things and that's great [41:23] and eventually it will get you Joy but [41:25] when you f when you're there for the [41:27] first first day or the first few days [41:28] there's a lot of getting used to things [41:30] around you right you need to like figure [41:33] who's who right who's on top who's in [41:35] the bottom like where is a cafeteria [41:38] what am I going to eat there's so many [41:39] different things that you need to figure [41:41] out it can be stressful it can be [41:43] overwhelming and you often want to just [41:47] like run back to your old life run back [41:49] to your new job and do a U-turn and the [41:53] problem is that often people don't [41:55] predict this they can't see ahead right [41:58] they think it's like well I'm unhappy [42:01] with my new job on my first day or my [42:02] second day or even the first week that [42:04] means that this is not a good job for me [42:05] you know perhaps it's not a good job for [42:07] you or perhaps you just need to allow it [42:09] some time to adapt so you know my [42:12] recommendation is whatever it is that [42:15] you're trying that's new can also be [42:17] something like a new relationship right [42:19] give it some time because you're going [42:21] to have to get used to the things that [42:24] are also not great you will also get [42:26] things you get used to things are great [42:28] but you have to get used to those things [42:29] that are not great and then after a [42:30] while you won't see them anymore right [42:32] so not going to affect you as much so [42:34] give a time now if you gave it time and [42:37] still you're unhappy sure yeah make a [42:40] change there's a clear message in here [42:42] for managers employees CEOs Founders [42:45] about how to keep their team motivated [42:48] and engaged and the message that I'm [42:50] hearing is the importance in creating [42:52] Variety in their work because I always [42:54] think in businesses I'm involved in if [42:56] someone's doing this same thing for like [42:57] 12 months we're going to have a have to [43:00] have a conversation within the next 3 [43:01] months because they will typically come [43:04] to me and say like something's not [43:06] something's not right and it's typically [43:08] that people need a bit of variety in [43:10] their work I guess because that gives it [43:11] a little kick of meaning again you know [43:14] I I think I've always hypothesized that [43:17] people need like five things to really [43:18] like their jobs number one is a sense of [43:21] Forward Motion towards a a goal so [43:23] that's progress I guess feeling like [43:25] you're go make making forward motion [43:27] number two challenge they need to be [43:29] like sufficiently challenged not too [43:31] challenged because then there's lots of [43:32] issues underchallenged lots of issues [43:34] lose motivation like in game psychology [43:37] number three is control and autonomy so [43:39] feeling like you've got control over [43:40] your life your work number four is [43:42] meaning in the work you're doing [43:43] subjective meaning Jack's reason for [43:46] doing this podcast will be entirely [43:47] different from someone else in the team [43:49] for example and then the last one is [43:51] working in like a supportive group of [43:53] people there's a lot of studies about [43:55] this that you want a situation [43:57] where you're learning something because [43:59] if you're learning nothing people are [44:01] not engaged right but if it's like so [44:04] difficult that you can't learn right [44:07] people aren't happy as well so you have [44:08] to be like in this the spot in the [44:10] middle right that's a sweet spot and [44:12] again it's different for everyone right [44:14] where it's not too easy but it's not too [44:16] difficult so you have something to learn [44:18] but you're still progressing and that's [44:19] very important there's a great study [44:21] showing that if you put people in a room [44:24] and there's absolutely nothing for them [44:26] to do except to shock themselves they [44:28] will shock themselves like little shock [44:30] I don't mean you know um this this paper [44:33] was actually in science a few years ago [44:35] so meaning that boredom can be so [44:39] aversive to people they would actually [44:41] prefer physical pain than to just not do [44:45] anything at all so that's on the one [44:47] hand and then of course on the other [44:48] hand is when you're sitting in in a you [44:50] know in a class or you're listening to [44:52] Electra and you have no idea what's it's [44:54] too much right because you haven't [44:56] gotten there maybe you'll take the steps [44:58] eventually you'll get there but but you [45:00] know you started off by saying for [45:02] employees you need to kind of change [45:04] right give them different projects and [45:05] so on and what's interesting not only [45:08] will they enjoy it more they're more [45:10] likely to get to Creative Solutions [45:13] start with the fact that what what has [45:15] been found is that people who habituate [45:17] slower are more creative um so there's [45:21] different ways to measure how fast you [45:24] habituate what they did in this study is [45:26] that they had a sound the same sound [45:29] again and again and again and they [45:30] measured Kink conductance which shows um [45:33] so it is how aroused you are when you're [45:36] aroused you sweat more okay and that is [45:39] measured by the skin conductance right [45:41] and so when there's like a sound there's [45:43] a response so if a sound is the same [45:45] sound again and again and again most [45:47] people habituate there's no longer [45:48] response you know long skin conductance [45:51] but for some people they continue [45:52] responding right because they're not [45:54] habituating and what was found is those [45:56] those people who continue responding [45:58] those were the people who already showed [46:01] creativity in their life they had a [46:03] patent under their name they had an [46:05] exhibition in an art gallery they had a [46:08] book that they wrote they had um got [46:11] prizes for Innovative work and the [46:15] question is why is that and I think the [46:17] reason is that because of habituation we [46:20] filter a lot of information right and [46:23] you know it makes sense information is [46:24] not important but if you don't habituate [46:26] you're going to have a lot of bits of [46:28] information in your mind simmering [46:30] objects sounds bits and pieces of [46:33] knowledge that are not important on [46:35] their own but they're just going to stay [46:37] in your mind they're going to simmer and [46:39] once in a while they will create [46:42] something new and that's where [46:44] Innovation comes in and really if you [46:46] think about the most Creative Solutions [46:48] that people come up with it's usually [46:51] they take something from one field [46:53] something really boring unimportant [46:56] mundane [46:57] and that bit of mundane piece of [47:00] information then solves a problem in [47:02] this other completely different field [47:05] and or there's like this part of [47:07] knowledge here that is boring and this [47:11] other part of knowledge in this other [47:12] field that also seems very mundane but [47:14] you put them together and suddenly you [47:16] create something that is really really [47:19] interesting uh and creative right I mean [47:21] often you see for example people taking [47:24] what they know from biology [47:27] which you know on its own doesn't seem [47:29] so important but then they take that and [47:32] they use it to solve a problem in a [47:35] different field technology for example [47:37] right that is like the most Creative [47:40] Solutions so how do we facilitate that [47:44] how do we facilitate dishabituation in [47:46] order to enhance creativity and the [47:49] answer is change changing your [47:51] environment and it could be simple [47:53] things there studies showing that if you [47:55] just change your environment let's say [47:56] say you're working in the office for a [47:58] few hours and you go work for in a [47:59] coffee shop for a few hours right that [48:01] change can actually also enhance [48:03] creativity um you're sitting and working [48:05] and then you're going out and walking or [48:07] going out for a run um studies show for [48:10] the first six minutes you're going to be [48:13] more creative and also vice versa so if [48:15] you are out walking out running and then [48:17] you come back and you sit in your office [48:20] for the next 6 minutes you're going to [48:21] be more creative now six minutes may [48:23] sound like that's not a lot of time but [48:26] sometimes there's just enough for you to [48:28] get the aha moment I can remember those [48:31] instances where I came up with an idea [48:34] that would then change my course of [48:36] research for a long time those ideas [48:38] that were really important so if I think [48:40] about these examples like one example [48:42] was I was in the office trying to solve [48:44] this problem and I couldn't find a [48:45] solution so I decided to go to the gym [48:47] and then so I walked to the gym and then [48:49] before while I was walking while I was [48:51] getting to the gym that's when you know [48:53] the solution came about and I remember [48:55] like calling my student and like sharing [48:57] that and that would then change years of [48:59] what we we were going to do right so [49:01] just all I did was changed my physical [49:03] activity change just my physical [49:06] surrounding and that's exactly what [49:08] these studies show um or another example [49:12] was again I was in my office and I took [49:14] a break and I was reading the New York [49:16] Times science section so not hugely [49:18] different but still different right and [49:20] then I read something about monkeys and [49:22] I do humans and that again that was ooh [49:25] that I an idea came about by taking a [49:28] break and doing something that was a [49:30] little bit different and I think every [49:32] single example of this it's always like [49:35] that it's never me trying to think of [49:38] something new me trying to find a [49:40] solution it's always doing something [49:42] else which then something unusual not [49:45] something that I do like 90% of the time [49:48] in a day and that doing those times is [49:51] when these kind of new ideas came about [49:54] you know the brain generally having [49:56] spent so much time studying it what are [49:58] the the fundamental surprises you've [50:00] come to learn about humans that you [50:02] think most people just don't understand [50:04] or agree with like the things that we [50:06] don't want to believe about ourselves [50:07] that are unfortunately [50:10] true things that are unfortunately true [50:13] I see this I read this throughout your [50:15] work things where you go humans wouldn't [50:18] say they're like that if you ask them [50:19] but clearly they are because of the [50:21] research right yeah I mean it is true [50:24] that we're not conscious of most of [50:27] these kind of systematic mistakes that [50:29] we make and the biases that we have for [50:32] example I mean maybe our belief system [50:35] is a great [50:36] example of why we believe what we [50:39] believe I think that if you'd ask people [50:42] why do you believe a certain thing they [50:45] would probably give you some kind of [50:46] rational explanation right I believe [50:50] this thing because you know here's all [50:52] the evidence and so forth but in fact [50:55] most of the times the reason we believe [50:56] believe something is that we were [50:58] brought up in an environment where that [51:00] belief was a popular one or people [51:02] around us Believe it or we've heard it [51:04] again and again you know one interesting [51:06] thing is this is a huge effect where [51:08] people are are not aware of it as long [51:10] as you hear something um repeatedly even [51:13] twice the likelihood that you believe it [51:16] goes way up versus something that you [51:19] hear once it's called the illus truth [51:21] effect you just there's so many studies [51:23] showing this you let people you you tell [51:26] people something twice they don't [51:27] remember that they've heard it twice and [51:29] they're going to believe it way more [51:31] than something that they just heard once [51:33] um the reason for this is that the brain [51:36] process information that it's heard [51:38] before less right okay so let's say I [51:41] tell you that [51:43] um a shrimp's heart is in its head right [51:46] so when you hear that that sounds really [51:48] surprising and your brain takes a lot of [51:51] resources to process this you might [51:53] think about the last time I ate a shrimp [51:55] um right or just imagine the shrimp's [51:58] heart is in his head but the second time [52:00] I'm going to tell you this a shrimp's [52:02] heart is in his head your brain's not [52:04] going to processes at much right and the [52:05] third time it's not going to process at [52:07] all now when your brain takes less [52:11] effort in processing things that causes [52:15] um a signal of [52:16] familiarity and as a result we're more [52:19] likely to believe something when [52:21] something requires less effort and less [52:24] energy to process we believe it [52:27] more so anything that you hear again and [52:29] again and again as you hear it more and [52:31] more and more it takes less energy to [52:34] process and if it takes less energy to [52:35] process our brain then concludes that is [52:38] as likely true and for good reason [52:40] because most of the time when you hear [52:42] something again and again again most of [52:43] the time it's true so if you heard [52:44] something from you know your aunt and [52:46] then you heard it from your friend and [52:48] then you heard it from your doctor why [52:50] do all the people tell you all these [52:51] things because on average it's true but [52:53] sometimes it's not going to be true [52:55] right it's going to be false beliefs [52:57] right and even even things like it takes [53:01] you less energy to process a large front [53:04] 14 font bold it takes us less energy to [53:06] process it versus like small font yeah [53:09] we see that across the board in all of [53:10] our marketing companies is that if we [53:12] just make the font a little bit bigger [53:14] we get more clicks so it just a tiny bit [53:16] click yeah not only are people more [53:17] attentive they're going to believe it [53:19] more so there's studies showing that you [53:21] show people two sentences um one is in [53:24] big fonts bold and one is in small and [53:27] you ask them you know How likely is this [53:28] to be true How likely is that to be true [53:30] those sentences that are in big bald [53:32] fonts people are more likely to believe [53:34] they're true because the brain requires [53:37] less energy to process it which then [53:40] makes us conclude that it's likely to be [53:42] true and it's true for like for example [53:43] if you do it with like red color right [53:46] anything that makes it easier for for us [53:48] to process if we hear things more [53:50] clearly we're more likely to believe [53:51] that's true than if you put a little bit [53:53] of noise um people are less likely to [53:55] believe things are are true anytime that [53:57] it's hard for us to process so what that [53:59] means is if you want people to um if you [54:02] want to help them believe what you're [54:04] saying right take on your [54:05] recommendations you want to make it [54:07] easier for them to process it so you [54:09] could do that visually big fonts red so [54:12] on but the other things you can do is [54:14] you can relate it to things that they [54:16] already believe in what we call priors [54:19] right so if I I want to convince you of [54:21] something it might be a good idea for me [54:24] to think about what are you what do you [54:25] already believe [54:26] right and then try to tie that to what [54:29] you already believe because that will [54:30] require less processing or I could tell [54:33] you something twice of threee times now [54:36] of course this does it's not like I'm [54:37] going to tell you something really [54:38] really crazy right the Earth is flat [54:40] three times and you're going to believe [54:41] me right but I'm talking about these [54:42] things where like it could be true right [54:44] and so I tell you that a few times and [54:47] then eventually you you more likely to [54:48] believe it and you don't know it's [54:50] because you've heard it a few times so [54:51] if I [54:53] said salad and sugar are good for you [54:58] versus just sugar is good for you maybe [55:00] more people are more likely to believe [55:02] the first sentence because I've included [55:04] a statement that you know from prior [55:06] knowledge is true which is cabbage is [55:08] good yeah that that is a great example [55:10] that is a great example okay because our [55:12] brain goes yeah salad is good for you [55:13] and then you know by the time we get to [55:15] Sugar We're like okay that could be true [55:17] and also it makes you be more believable [55:20] and just to say you need a little bit of [55:22] sugar sugar is not only bad yeah little [55:25] bit so you talk toone about DEH [55:27] habituating Our [55:29] Lives why why and where do we need to [55:32] DEH habituate Our Lives what where do we [55:34] need to change things and introduce [55:36] novelty I'm almost wanting to come away [55:39] with a little bit of a little bit of a [55:41] checklist for my own life here I feel [55:43] like I'm I understand the part in [55:45] relationships which is take breaks from [55:47] my partner try new things with them you [55:49] said as well so go to new restaurants go [55:50] to new places do new things on the [55:52] weekend in work um quit my job I guess [55:56] that's what you're saying no absolutely [55:59] not no do not quit your job you know [56:02] change role add new responsibilities [56:04] yeah but you could it could even be [56:06] something as I mean you don't have to [56:08] completely change what you're doing but [56:11] you could at the same time try something [56:14] new and in fact you know from from you [56:15] know I'm sure you do that because you [56:17] have different things that you're doing [56:20] right and so that means you have Variety [56:22] in your day because you do your podcast [56:24] but then you also have your companies [56:25] and your companies are different right [56:27] so this is a good example but not [56:28] everyone has that right A lot of people [56:30] just have the one job but if you can [56:33] take on you know learn something new [56:36] right induce variety into your day in [56:40] that way that is great that will cause [56:43] you to start being on kind of a learning [56:44] mode right I take also from that that as [56:47] an employer it's really important that [56:48] we have all of our team members on a [56:53] personal development plan which means [56:56] making sure that they've got [56:58] intellectual Forward Motion in their [57:00] lives they're always learning something [57:01] new they're always striving for [57:02] something new and that every team member [57:04] in like my company should have something [57:07] they're currently learning about outside [57:09] of their core responsibilities right so [57:11] sometimes it's it would look like [57:13] they're going sideways yeah right so [57:15] sometimes it doesn't look like the the [57:17] path is like just progressing forward [57:20] but sometimes perhaps the plan is to go [57:22] a little bit sideways what you mean [57:25] sideways which means like it's not the [57:27] obvious thing yeah that they're going to [57:29] learn right for their role see [57:32] something's not going to become a better [57:34] editor or producer or whatever he's [57:36] going to learn music almost anything [57:39] different that you learn is probably [57:41] going to feedback yeah right yeah I [57:44] guess it's it comes right down to even [57:46] the route you cycle on the way to work [57:48] in the morning or small things right [57:50] small decisions you make hotels you stay [57:52] at the airline you choose to use is is [57:54] there any other ways that you've dehab [57:56] sit in your life Having learned about [57:58] this yes but I I want to just say [57:59] something about you said use different [58:02] airlines and so on so on one hand yes [58:05] but on the other hand if something is [58:08] not super enjoyable but you still have [58:10] to do it so for example maybe [58:13] flying maybe travel like when you're [58:15] traveling for business it can be painful [58:18] right so in those cases in fact you want [58:22] to do the same thing again and again why [58:25] because you you habituate to the [58:27] negative you see so if you think about [58:29] things that you don't like to do um you [58:32] may actually want to do it in the same [58:34] way over and over okay right because I [58:37] mean unless you think like you get on a [58:39] plane and you're super enjoy it but like [58:41] you know for me I just like want it to [58:43] be over with right so it's easier [58:45] actually to use the same airline to do [58:48] the same thing so in some parts of of [58:50] life actually you want to choose to do [58:52] the same thing and in fact in some parts [58:54] of life you want to um do these things [58:57] that you don't enjoy in one chunk you [58:59] know how we talked about the good things [59:01] you chop up MH the bad things you want [59:04] to swallow whole so if you think about [59:06] things that you don't like to do but you [59:08] really need to do like I don't know I [59:09] need to grade papers I need to do house [59:12] household chores when you ask people [59:15] like would you rather do this thing that [59:18] you need to do but you don't like would [59:19] you just get it over with um in one go [59:22] or do you want breaks in between for a [59:25] breather M people like breaks for a [59:27] breather right um if it is like I don't [59:30] know washing the floor or whatever there [59:32] is doing their taxes they want the [59:34] breakes but in fact they suffer less if [59:38] they just get it over with because then [59:40] they habituate to the [59:42] negative yeah right yeah makes sense so [59:45] for the positive you want variety and so [59:48] on and but the things that you're not [59:50] going to learn a lot from you just need [59:52] to get them over and done with just get [59:54] them over and done with and even do it [59:55] at exactly the same way that you've over [59:58] always done it is social media going [60:00] going to make me vicariously habituate [60:02] I.E through looking at other people's [60:05] lives and experiences they're having [60:07] it's moving my bar up like my my own [60:11] perception of expectations in my life up [60:13] in an unpleasant way so that when I go [60:16] to that same place that Jenny went to on [60:18] Instagram it's less enjoyable for me [60:20] because I've already kind of experienced [60:22] it through the lens of Jenny's Instagram [60:25] stories [60:26] right so this has a lot to do with what [60:28] do you what do we expect from life and [60:30] how do those expectations impact us [60:34] um so I think obviously social media is [60:38] causing us to have unrealistic [60:40] expectations we always I don't know for [60:43] most of us we feel kind of disappointed [60:44] with ourselves we go online is because [60:46] of course a lot of people go online and [60:48] they post the good things right oh I'm [60:50] on vacation I got this award and then [60:51] you go online and you're like oh all the [60:53] people all of this good things are [60:55] happening constantly and so you feel [60:56] disappointed about your own life you [60:58] have unrealistic [61:00] expectations um and it it shifts what we [61:03] call adaptation level so basically we [61:06] adapt to um our daily life and then [61:09] things that are better than our daily [61:11] life we feel good and things are worse [61:13] we feel worse but sometimes our [61:15] adaptation level can shift not based on [61:18] our reality but what we expect maybe [61:22] will happen and also what we see other [61:25] people are doing doing so let's talk [61:27] about expecting what will happen so it's [61:29] there's a study showing that when [61:32] prisoners are about to be [61:35] released they are still in prison but in [61:38] their mind they're already like thinking [61:40] about the release which is great and so [61:43] now their expectations are kind of [61:45] higher and that makes them feel worse [61:48] right so they're actually very close to [61:50] release but in fact they're feeling [61:53] really bad because their their daily [61:57] life is much worse from what they expect [62:00] their daily life to be that's kind of [62:02] like social media isn't it you're [62:03] satting your house looking out at people [62:05] partying in some hot Sunny Country [62:07] having the time of their lives you feel [62:08] like you're in prison your expectations [62:10] are being raised because you're watching [62:11] them have the time of their lives so [62:13] suddenly your house feels like you know [62:15] a prison yeah so your expectations can [62:17] be based on what you just expect for [62:19] yourself and also what other people are [62:21] doing now I'm not saying that um high [62:25] expectations are bad right because [62:27] there's two things happening at the same [62:29] time one thing is when um the outcomes [62:34] so this is related to dopamine neurons [62:35] so basically dopamine neurons in your [62:37] your brain are firing all the time right [62:40] and then when outcomes are better than [62:43] expected they fire even more burst more [62:46] right so you expect to get this amount [62:49] of salary you get a higher salary [62:51] dopamine goes up you expect the steak to [62:54] taste quite good it tastes even better [62:56] they fire more and when things are worse [62:58] than expected they start um quieting [63:02] down right so they're quieting down when [63:05] things are worse than expected and that [63:07] is highly correlated with your mood when [63:09] there's big burst of dopamine you feel [63:11] good when the dopamine is quiet you're [63:14] feeling bad but that quiet is important [63:19] because that quiet says things are not [63:22] as good as I expected them to be and it [63:24] signals to your brain I need to learn [63:26] something I need to change this right [63:28] there's two things you can change you [63:30] can change your expectations you can [63:32] lower them or you can change the reality [63:34] right and so this negative mood that is [63:38] associated with outcomes not being um as [63:41] good as you expected them can actually [63:43] lead to progress so it's a bit of a [63:45] delicate kind of balance right and so [63:49] often I mean there's this really [63:50] counterintuitive finding which is when [63:54] people don't have certain things in [63:56] their life for example in countries [63:59] where the Health Care system is quite [64:01] bad the Health Care System doesn't [64:04] affect people's daily happiness as much [64:07] as in countries where the Health Care [64:08] system is good so when the healthare [64:10] system is good you expect it to be good [64:12] so then any variation can impact your [64:15] your kind of satisfaction but if you're [64:17] living in a country where like well I [64:19] know the healthare system is bad I'm [64:20] it's not going to even affect how I'm [64:22] feeling right you have no expectations [64:24] and you're kind of that's not going to [64:26] impact your [64:28] happiness how much do you really know [64:30] about your health for me that answer was [64:33] simple the answer was very little until [64:36] whoop came along as you guys know they [64:38] sponsored this podcast but even before [64:40] then whoop was integral for me to know [64:42] what's going on inside my body most of [64:44] my friends my family and my team now use [64:46] [ __ ] but I still have a few friends that [64:48] are on the fence about getting on board [64:50] and what I hear from some of those [64:51] friends is that they're a little bit [64:52] worried about what they might see in the [64:53] data and they might feel uncomfortable [64:55] about knowing what's going on inside [64:57] their body if I learned anything it is [64:59] that knowledge is power and once I [65:01] finally started to look at the data and [65:03] understand how getting less sleep was [65:05] affecting my body and how my old [65:07] lifestyle was actually hurting my [65:09] long-term Health everything changed for [65:10] the better so if this is something that [65:12] you'd like to try out head over to join. [65:16] whoop.com [65:17] CEO and you'll get to try whoop for 30 [65:20] days risk-free with zero commitment try [65:24] it and let me know how you get on let's [65:27] talk about Zoe who you may know because [65:29] they're a sponsor of this podcast and [65:31] I'm an investor in the company you guys [65:33] know health is my number one priority [65:35] Zoe's growth story has been absolutely [65:37] incredible so far they're doing science [65:39] at a scale that I've never seen before [65:41] because of their members and recent [65:43] breakthroughs in research they can now [65:45] continue to offer the most [65:46] scientifically Advanced gut health test [65:48] on the market previously the test [65:51] allowed them to analyze 30 bacteria [65:53] types in your gut but now thanks to new [65:56] science they've identified a 100 [65:58] bacteria types this is a huge step [66:00] forward and there's nothing else that's [66:02] available even close to it on the market [66:05] at all so to find out more and to get [66:07] started on your Zoe Journey visit [66:08] zoe.com [66:10] stepen you can use my exclusive code [66:14] ce10 for 10% off don't tell anybody [66:16] about that okay just for you guys I [66:19] remember you had a TED Talk didn't you [66:20] which did uh 15 million views on how to [66:22] motivate yourself to change your [66:24] behavior [66:25] okay yeah what can I take from that Ted [66:28] talk to achieve my new year new me [66:33] goals okay so um I talk about a few [66:36] principles there and one [66:39] is a lot of time our goals are in the [66:41] future so I want to go to the gym [66:44] because eventually I want to lose weight [66:46] I'm not going to lose weight that very [66:48] second right I'm not going to like get [66:50] into my jeans that very day eventually I [66:52] know that if I go to the gym I will [66:53] become healthier right so it's all a lot [66:55] of times about the future or you say I [66:57] want to get a promotion so I'm going to [66:58] work really hard today so I can get [67:00] promotion in the future the problem is [67:04] that it's really hard to motivate [67:05] yourself to do something [67:07] immediate for a reward that's going to [67:10] come a time from now so what you need to [67:13] do is you need to figure out what can I [67:16] get now I'm going to the gym because I [67:19] want to be healthier and you know [67:21] thinner or whatever in the future but is [67:22] there anything that I can get at the [67:24] very moment um I've heard people tell me [67:27] that the way that they motivate [67:28] themselves to get the gym is they say [67:30] when I get to the gym and I get on the [67:32] treadmill I'm G to allow myself to watch [67:34] some trash TV or uh read like you know a [67:38] magazine that I don't always allow [67:39] myself to read so that's one thing right [67:42] think about what the immediate rewards [67:44] that you can give yourself or someone [67:46] else maybe you're helping someone else [67:48] to to achieve their goals what can we [67:50] get immediately not only in the future [67:53] for for example another person told me [67:55] that their husband um they really wanted [67:57] their husband to go to the gym and so [67:58] the husband went to the gym and they got [68:00] back and the wife um said to the husband [68:02] ooh I can feel you're like I can see [68:04] your muscles right so it was immediate [68:05] right they gave him like immediate [68:07] rewards so try to think about I call it [68:09] like um Bridge the temporal Gap because [68:12] there's an action happening today and [68:14] there's this like goal in the future but [68:16] you have to bridge the temple Gap to try [68:19] to think about okay what can I also get [68:21] now it could be an emotional response [68:23] right I mean a lot of times when we do [68:25] something like we work hard we solve a [68:28] problem we go to the gym we feel good it [68:30] could be the emotional response so maybe [68:33] one way you can do is make that Salient [68:35] right maybe like track your your [68:38] emotions track your mood and you can say [68:40] okay this is what I did today right I [68:42] went to the gym today this is how I was [68:43] feeling right and so that's also an [68:47] immediate reward I was thinking about [68:50] this idea of discipline and what creates [68:52] discipline and I was [68:53] hypothesizing if there were to be a [68:55] discipline equation what it might look [68:57] like and I kind of concluded that [68:59] there's three parts to the things and [69:01] areas in my life where I've been able to [69:03] maintain discipline and the equation [69:05] looks something like this the start of [69:07] the equation would be the why like [69:10] however much I valued that goal so it [69:13] could be going to the gym or [69:15] whatever Plus the reward that I got from [69:19] the pursuit of the goal so the perceived [69:22] reward I got from the pursuit of the [69:23] goal so that's actually like going to [69:25] the gym doing the exercise being on the [69:27] treadmill the feeling after walking home [69:30] like the you know and then minus the [69:33] cost of the pursuit of the goal so [69:35] that's like having to like leave the [69:37] house get in the Uber put my shoes on [69:39] travel for 45 minutes wa you know use [69:42] lose two hours and if you want to be [69:44] disciplined in any are of your life you [69:45] need to therefore increase the why in [69:49] whatever way you can get really really [69:50] clear on why that matters and in your [69:52] case create those packs like a social [69:53] pack a financial pack whatever to make [69:55] it really important to you do whatever [69:58] you can to make the reward of the [69:59] pursuit of the goal more enjoyable might [70:01] be going with a friend or something [70:03] going to a gym that's closer I don't [70:04] know and then do everything you can to [70:06] reduce the cost of the pursuit of the [70:07] goal so right and the problem is that [70:10] the costs are often immediate yeah right [70:13] and then we we fall into What's called [70:14] the present bias or sometimes it's [70:16] called temporal discounting which is [70:19] that often we value what's happening in [70:21] the moment more than the same thing if [70:24] it was to happen in the future right um [70:27] and that's true for both like bad things [70:29] and good things things that are just [70:30] happening now our brain is like oh I'm [70:33] going to decide what to do based on this [70:35] immediate thing and the problem is that [70:37] the costs are often immediate right to [70:39] go 100% go yeah they come first right so [70:41] you have to overcome those costs and I [70:43] think one and as you're saying one thing [70:45] you could do is to try to get those [70:47] rewards closer in timee right so if I go [70:49] to to the gym I have to like walk to the [70:51] gym I might tell myself okay I can [70:52] listen to a podcast while I'm walking so [70:56] exactly exactly while I'm running yeah [70:59] Simon synic threw a really when I was at [71:00] his house talking to him about this he [71:01] threw objection at me he was like yeah [71:03] but this morning in La I got out of bed [71:07] and went and emptied the bins at 7: a.m. [71:09] because I knew if I didn't and there [71:11] would be repercussions so I ran that [71:12] through this framework and I was like [71:14] well your y was strong because the [71:15] repercussions of you not getting out of [71:17] bed are the been overflows you probably [71:19] get fined by the local Council the [71:21] reward of the pursuit of the goal really [71:23] wasn't there and the cost fortunately [71:26] was lower than the Y so discipline [71:28] occurred right and and that's because [71:30] we're sophisticated creatures right [71:32] we're not only driven I mean those [71:34] things immediately are are strong but [71:36] we're not only driven by them we have [71:38] these frontales right we're [71:40] sophisticated creature we can value [71:43] things that are in the future so when [71:44] I'm saying and I say you know immediate [71:46] is important I'm not saying future isn't [71:48] important for us and we don't use that [71:49] we do right and we're able to do that um [71:53] another thing that people do is they act [71:55] actually put in artificial costs for not [71:58] doing the right thing like a social pack [72:01] is one where announced it to the world [72:03] world on my Instagram that I'm going to [72:05] do it yes then there's a reputational [72:06] cost if I don't right right and uh for [72:09] example you know there's there's silly [72:11] things where people say I've heard this [72:13] when uh for writers and they tell I tell [72:17] the friends you know I'm going to send [72:18] you my chapter Monday at 700 a.m. and [72:22] first of all that's that's a pack right [72:24] I mean I have to send it because I told [72:25] you not because you're even going to [72:26] read it right but if I don't then I am [72:30] you know $100 is going to come into your [72:32] account like maybe you even already put [72:33] it you know as like a future thing which [72:35] you can stop right so there's a cost you [72:37] put a cost to what will happen if you [72:39] don't do that immediate [72:42] thing just goes to show I think [72:44] fundamentally that we're just driven by [72:46] incentives you know we think it's [72:48] something else but really at the very [72:50] fundamental level everything just seems [72:51] to be about incentives in business and [72:53] work in relationships in life absolutely [72:56] I mean every decision every action [72:58] conscious or unconscious is very much [73:01] about incentives right the good and the [73:03] bad I think what's interesting to me is [73:05] that those incentives are quite variable [73:09] they can be money um they can be food [73:12] they can be like social interactions [73:15] variety they can be variety yeah so the [73:17] what the incentives are is very variable [73:21] what you know what the good that I'm [73:23] getting also the bad right what what [73:25] feels bad a lot of different things can [73:28] feel bad so interesting so if you go if [73:31] you go down to like creatures low in The [73:33] evolutionary scale I think for them [73:35] things are more basic right for them [73:37] it's just like food temperature right [73:40] things like that that are really about [73:42] survival but as we go up and up and up [73:44] the ladder and we get to humans for us [73:48] there's a lot of different things that [73:50] can be incentivizing I was saying to one [73:53] of my colleagues the other day in a [73:55] business that I'm like a an investor in [73:57] he was telling me about one of his team [73:59] members who was like just a bit had lost [74:02] the love of the her work MH and he told [74:05] me the list of reasons she had said in [74:07] the like exit interview as to why she [74:09] wasn't enjoying her work and I looked at [74:11] the list of things and intuitively it [74:14] felt [74:15] like the person didn't actually know why [74:18] they weren and drink their work anymore [74:20] and so I had a conversation with this [74:21] person who was leaving this company and [74:24] um we got the very bottom of it and at [74:26] the very heart of it was just a loss of [74:27] meaning in the job they were doing they [74:29] couldn't answer um why it mattered [74:32] anymore they thought the work they were [74:33] doing no longer mattered and when you'd [74:36] asked them they would have said a lot of [74:37] other things you know they would have [74:38] point to small little things in this and [74:40] that and the office and whatever else [74:42] and the music that's playing and the but [74:44] at the very heart of it was actually [74:45] just an absence of meaning and people [74:47] aren't I don't think very good at [74:48] understanding that they've lost meaning [74:50] or that meaning is so important or that [74:51] what it is yeah and that goes back to [74:54] the survey that I mentioned um where [74:56] they found that the number one thing [74:58] that was important for people's [74:59] happiness was meaning and what does [75:00] meaning [75:01] mean does mean um I guess is that what [75:06] you're doing is [75:08] valuable right to um yeah two so that's [75:12] a good question I think it's probably [75:14] Beyond yourself I don't know maybe it is [75:18] even something about [75:19] immortality right wanting to feel that [75:23] what I'm doing is going to changed [75:25] something Beyond Myself um and it's it's [75:29] not necessarily about generosity [75:31] although you know generosity and could [75:33] be part of it but it's more about making [75:35] of a difference right Steve Job had had [75:39] this um saying that he he said something [75:41] like a dent in the universe right making [75:43] a dent in the universe I think a lot of [75:46] people want to do that and it you know [75:47] it don't have to invent the Mac to do [75:51] that it could also be how you affect [75:54] your family how you raise your children [75:56] right and that thing that those are the [75:59] kind of things that can continue to be [76:02] even when you're not there I've noticed [76:04] this [76:05] trend gen Z and the younger Millennials [76:09] are the change the world generation and [76:12] what I mean by that hit me out is that I [76:15] have so many young kids coming up to me [76:17] especially over the last what of 10 [76:18] years generally that would say to me I [76:21] want to change the world and you'd ask [76:23] them like what do you mean that say like [76:25] I want to change the world um they can't [76:28] tell you necessarily what they want to [76:29] change about it but they want to be the [76:32] person that had that impact on the world [76:35] and I I think that sits in contrast to [76:37] what my father would have said as a 65y [76:40] old man if you had asked him at 20 years [76:42] old what do you want to do in your job I [76:43] don't think my dad would have said [76:45] change the world I think he would have [76:46] said I want to be a structural engineer [76:48] you know what I mean and I think the [76:50] going back to your point about um [76:53] habituation and people's desire to like [76:55] I don't know for immortality is it [76:58] plausible that because of social media [77:01] because we've seen a lot of world [77:02] changes we've adjusted our own I don't [77:04] know expectations of what are our own [77:08] contributions to now that this Young [77:10] Generation if they're not changing the [77:12] world or if they're not having such a [77:14] profound impact on things they don't [77:16] have the level of meaning has habituated [77:20] to now the base minimum of impact they [77:22] need to have is to change the world you [77:24] see what I mean you can't just get a job [77:26] right and when I when I said about a [77:27] dent in the [77:29] world I did not mean as as I said before [77:31] I don't mean like inventing the Mac it [77:34] could just be making a nice meal that [77:37] people enjoy right or something it could [77:39] be it could be things that are quite [77:42] small and you know thinking about your [77:44] father he wants to be an engineer but he [77:46] wanted to be an engineer but why right [77:49] he said that's what he wanted to do but [77:51] why did he want that right so he [77:53] probably I don't know but maybe he [77:55] wanted to be that because that would [77:57] enable him to [77:58] create new things MH right and so in [78:01] just creating new things you're changing [78:04] the world so I think I don't think he [78:07] was aiming at that though whereas the [78:08] young kids that come up to me they're [78:09] like aiming at that so they want to like [78:12] they want to change the world and they [78:13] haven't figured out how whereas my dad [78:15] wants to be like an engineer and the [78:17] consequences he ends up changing the [78:18] world yes but he probably wants to be an [78:20] engineer for some reason right I could [78:22] guess um and think he doesn't you know [78:25] people don't think about it change I [78:27] mean it's just we're using the same [78:29] words but I think these perhaps [78:32] different Generations have different [78:34] aspiration right um because changing the [78:38] world I when we say those when I say the [78:41] words I don't mean like changing the [78:43] world right I'm just saying saying doing [78:47] something that creates a change in your [78:49] world I mean maybe that's a better way [78:50] to do it better way to say it some kind [78:52] of change in your world not necess I'm [78:55] doing Global change like like Steve Jobs [78:57] but in some way this is a luxury and [79:00] that's true also even for your father's [79:02] generation and for this new generation [79:05] right wanting to have meaning is a [79:08] luxury that we have because we have our [79:11] basic needs right because we have food [79:15] and [79:16] shelter um and you know just like safety [79:19] the very very basic we can then start [79:22] thinking about meaning but on the the [79:24] other hand you can say well just being [79:27] able to care for my family and keeping [79:30] them safe that also has meaning um risk [79:35] in order to to change our lives we have [79:38] to sort of lean into risk in K is for [79:41] those people that are you know thinking [79:43] about changing their lives but they're [79:44] looking forward into uncertainty and [79:46] they're seeing risk um what advice would [79:48] you give them based on what you know [79:49] about habituation but more broadly from [79:51] the brain that's going to encourage them [79:54] to take that step into the unknown where [79:56] they believe risk lives yeah so we quote [79:59] the rock climber Alex Herold in in the [80:02] book and what he says is that that he [80:05] has a comfort zone which is kind of a [80:07] bubble around him and as he tries more [80:10] and more things that bubble just becomes [80:12] bigger and bigger and bigger he pushes [80:14] those boundaries and what happens is [80:17] that those things that seemed crazy to [80:20] him absolutely crazy then suddenly [80:22] become within the real of possibility [80:25] right I think the takeaway here is you [80:29] have to start you have to try and what [80:34] is helpful to know is that when even if [80:36] you try small so let's say there's you [80:39] their goal is quite up there it's like a [80:41] huge risk right yes but just try small [80:45] right and then suddenly The Next Step [80:48] wouldn't seem so crazy right and so on [80:51] and so forth we see that you know risk [80:55] habituates and it helps us explore [80:59] different things it helps us try new [81:00] things it can also go in a bad direction [81:03] right because of risk habituation what [81:05] is risk habituation risk habituation is [81:07] you do risky things when what we find is [81:09] that when people do risky things let's [81:10] say gamble we have a study where we let [81:13] people gamble um without letting them [81:15] know if they want or lost they just [81:17] gamble gamble gamble and we tell them at [81:18] the end okay they gamble they start [81:20] gambling just a little bit and then they [81:22] the next they gamble more and more and [81:24] more and more right they feel more [81:27] comfortable with gambling less anxious [81:30] right they also feel less excited so [81:32] they need to gamble more and so risk [81:36] really escalates because our emotions in [81:40] response to risk habituate so would risk [81:43] escalate so that's financial and I mean [81:46] that could be a bad thing right so it's [81:47] again it's like both things are at the [81:49] same time because you might take huge [81:51] risks because that that are you [81:53] shouldn't really take we do this with um [81:56] virtual risk as well so uh we want to [81:59] put we what we wanted to do is test [82:01] people's physical risk-taking but of [82:04] course we can't put them in danger so [82:06] what we did is we used virtual reality [82:09] and what we did is we used this game [82:11] where you put the headset on and then [82:13] you go up the elevator to a [82:16] skyscraper and you walk on a plank up up [82:19] up up in the air right it's all virtual [82:21] have you done this I have yes I did it [82:22] in New York City it was terrifying okay [82:24] yeah yeah it's tering terrifying it's [82:26] such a puz it's it's really interesting [82:28] experience because you know that you are [82:31] on the ground right I know that I'm in [82:33] my office I know that I'm safe but at [82:35] the same time my brain is completely [82:37] tricked yeah it's such you know it [82:40] really makes you feel quite humble and [82:42] how easy it is to trick your brain [82:44] you're feeling really scared and when we [82:46] let people do that they start off by [82:48] maybe taking one little step and two [82:50] little steps right and then the more [82:53] they do it they feel more comfortable [82:54] with it right they walk more and more [82:56] and more take more virtual risk until [82:58] you know 10 trials in they're jumping [83:00] right and we actually measure their [83:02] their anxiety we measure skin [83:04] conductance response and the more they [83:07] do it the less anxious they feel so they [83:08] take more risk and the less excited they [83:11] feel so they need more risk to take to [83:13] feel you know the same level of [83:15] excitement um yeah and I mean on one [83:18] hand they're exploring more in some [83:21] cases it could be dangerous for you and [83:23] you said in the book that people later [83:24] in their careers are more likely to have [83:27] accidents right um I think you said [83:30] athletes later in their career um have [83:32] accidents more and people on con [83:34] construction sites um have more [83:36] accidents later on in the project than [83:37] at the start of the project because they [83:38] start to take more of those risks it [83:40] made me think about you know the the [83:41] study you talked about where you get [83:42] people to gamble but they can't see the [83:44] results yet of their Reckless Behavior [83:46] there's many areas of all of our lives [83:48] where we're gambling with something but [83:51] we can't yet see the results of that [83:53] behavior whether it's like with our [83:55] health or whether it's habits we have [83:56] like smoking I'm [83:58] smoking I'm uh eating this this junk [84:01] crap over here and because I haven't yet [84:04] had the results come in the doctor [84:06] hasn't yet called me and told me there's [84:07] a problem I just keep going and my um [84:11] behavior Can escalate in those [84:12] departments until I get that phone call [84:14] which is like you've lost all your money [84:16] or your your health is you know you've [84:17] got something bad that's happened yeah [84:19] with long-term Investments right a lot [84:21] of the Investments financial investments [84:23] that we make are long-term mhm right so [84:25] we may start small and then we grow grow [84:27] grow grow and we don't know the outcomes [84:29] until years later so something [84:32] collapses what do you want people to to [84:34] come away from this conversation with [84:36] what is the uh the key [84:38] takeaway a lot of time people may not [84:41] feel so much joy in their life and then [84:43] they look around them and they conclude [84:46] that maybe I'm not feeling so much joy [84:48] because my relationship isn't that good [84:50] or you know my um job isn't that good [84:53] and you know maybe it is but maybe they [84:55] are good but they've just been the same [84:57] for a while so we have to be really [85:00] careful right and one way you know we [85:02] mentioned what you could do is just like [85:04] spice it up a little bit shake it up a [85:05] little bit right and see what happens [85:07] and and vice versa a lot of times they [85:11] are things that are negatively affecting [85:14] your life and you don't know it because [85:16] they're always there social media is one [85:19] example that you might you might a lot [85:22] of people may suspect that social media [85:23] Instagram Twitter is causing them a [85:25] little bit of an anxiety a little bit of [85:27] of stress but they don't really know for [85:30] sure you can't measure it until you take [85:32] a break right it's a bit like the Acy [85:35] noise looming in the background you [85:37] don't notice it but when you stop when [85:39] you turn it off you're sound like that's [85:41] so much better I didn't even realize [85:43] that this thing is causing me anxiety so [85:45] I think you know experiment I think that [85:48] you know the last chapter in the book we [85:49] We call we call it experiments in living [85:52] experiment in living because it's really [85:54] heart to know what are the things that [85:56] are that are really good in your life [85:58] and what are the things that are not so [85:59] good in your life until you make some [86:02] changes take a break from social media [86:04] for a few weeks do something different [86:05] for you and then you will see you write [86:07] about people taking a break from social [86:09] media don't you yes there's a great um [86:11] experiment that was conducted by The [86:13] Economist hunt Alcott where he took [86:15] 1,000 people he gave them $100 to get o [86:18] um off Facebook for a month and he took [86:20] another 1,000 individuals and they he [86:22] gave them $100 to just continue what [86:24] they're doing at the end of the month he [86:26] came and he measured their well-being on [86:29] every single measure that he had those [86:31] people who quit for a month were happier [86:33] they were less anxious less depressed [86:36] less sad so in every measure they were [86:37] in a better state right and they were [86:39] surprised they had no idea that this was [86:42] going to have such a huge effect on them [86:43] but here's the even bigger surprise they [86:45] said that they were happier right they [86:47] fully admitted it but most of them [86:49] straight away at the end of the month [86:51] went back to Facebook right [86:54] um which is really interesting because [86:57] you acknowledge that that thing is [86:58] causing you you know a negative effect [87:00] on your health so when do you go back I [87:01] think there's two reasons one is you [87:03] gain information and knowledge that [87:06] knowledge may you know it may not make [87:08] you feel good but we value knowledge and [87:10] information and that's perhaps one [87:12] reason why the people went back um it [87:15] could also be something like addiction I [87:16] mean a lot of things um in life that [87:19] you're addicted to you kind of know [87:21] they're not good for you you know [87:22] they're not causing you have but there's [87:25] need right there's something pushing you [87:27] there was this crazy stat I read in your [87:29] book about the impact that leaving [87:32] social media had had on people equated [87:34] to getting a $30,000 pay rise at work [87:38] something like that so that that yeah it [87:40] was a study that was conducted by um an [87:42] Italian uh [87:44] scientist and what he he did he noticed [87:48] that when Facebook first started in 2004 [87:51] it just started at Harvard right and [87:53] then a while later L they went on to you [87:56] know a lot of IV league universities one [87:58] by one very slowly and then 2008 they [88:01] opened up to the world and what he found [88:03] is that in every University that it [88:05] Facebook was introduced mental health [88:07] went down what was the reason he could [88:09] do the study is that the university had [88:11] measures of people's well-being they you [88:14] know because they actually measure it [88:15] quite often and he can see in every [88:17] University mental health went down every [88:20] University and then in the [88:22] population um Facebook was roduced in [88:24] 2008 in the next 10 years the EP [88:27] depression episodes were increased by [88:29] 80% now you don't know quation none of [88:32] this tells you cation it is only [88:34] correlational right interesting but you [88:37] know he so he's claiming that using [88:40] statistical methods he estimates that [88:43] potentially a quarter of this decline in [88:46] mental health can be due to uh social [88:49] media again you can't really it's not a [88:52] this is why the other experiment is a [88:53] little bit better because it's he the [88:56] other experiment hunt alcot manipulated [88:58] whether people were online or not so he [89:00] could actually do a control experiment [89:02] and measure it right um so he could show [89:05] cation this other study that suggests [89:08] 25% of mental health um decline was [89:11] caused um due to social media that's a [89:13] correlational um result but you know [89:17] there could be some truth in it we have [89:19] a closing tradition on this podcast [89:20] where the last guest leaves a question [89:21] for the next guest not knowing who they [89:24] leaving it for and the question left for [89:25] you is what is one thing that people who [89:29] are listening could do that you [89:34] know about that would improve their [89:37] lives how about something [89:40] simple how about people just now email [89:44] call turn to someone and tell them they [89:47] love [89:48] them it would not you know doesn't [89:52] completely change your life but it will [89:53] change your [89:55] feelings at that very [89:59] moment Ty thank you really enjoy the [90:02] conversation and I'm uh so fascinated by [90:04] your work and it's a real service to [90:05] humanity what you do so thank you so [90:06] much it's been a pleasure thank [90:09] you a quick word on hu as you know [90:12] they're a sponsor of this podcast and [90:13] I'm an investor in the company after [90:15] years and years and years and years of [90:16] work and literally I remember being in [90:18] the boardroom about two to three years [90:19] ago at hu when they were working on this [90:22] product finally hu have nailed the [90:26] Complete Nutrition bar honestly it's [90:29] been one of the most popular [90:31] conversations at H for the last 3 years [90:33] how do we make a bar that is [90:34] nutritionally complete that has 27 [90:37] minerals and vitamins and that is low in [90:39] sugar taste good I would have more of [90:43] them to show you had I not eaten them [90:44] all I mean they arrived at the office [90:46] yesterday and my team just uh scoffed [90:47] them all down and the last one you can [90:49] see it's actually ripped here because as [90:52] one of our team members went to eat it [90:53] some some shouted no we need that [90:55] tomorrow for the hu ad check it out I [90:57] know people are loving hu greens at the [90:58] moment because you guys have just [90:59] plastered my DMs asking for hu Greens in [91:01] the UK but in the meantime before hu [91:04] Daily Greens comes to the UK you've got [91:06] to check out the bars they've just [91:07] dropped because they are [91:10] delicious do you need a podcast to [91:12] listen to next we've discovered that [91:14] people who liked this episode also tend [91:17] to absolutely love another recent [91:19] episode we've done so I've linked that [91:21] episode in the description below I know [91:24] you'll enjoy it [91:30] [Music]