James Hoffmann Links Daily Coffee Consumption to Health and Gut Benefits
The Diary Of A CEO
Moderate daily coffee intake provides vital dietary fiber and polyphenols that promote gut health while lowering long-term all-cause mortality, provided caffeine does not impair sleep quality.
## Background
Published on YouTube by the channel The Diary Of A CEO on November 20, 2023, this episode features host Steven Bartlett in conversation with coffee expert James Hoffmann. The page description frames the discussion around the expansive world of coffee, highlighting topics ranging from mental health links, home machinery setups, and the history of coffee to the reality of coffee pods.
## TL;DR
Former World Barista Champion James Hoffmann breaks down the complex botany, health metrics, and cultural evolution of coffee, shifting its perception from a bitter morning addiction to a highly celebrated, gut-nourishing craft. The discussion covers how caffeine operates as an adenosine receptor antagonist, the surprising fiber and polyphenol benefits of filter coffee, and the strict rules for protecting sleep quality from late-day consumption. Hoffmann also evaluates high-street commercial chains through a blind tasting, shares practical advice on prioritizing home burr grinders, and reflects on the economic realities facing independent cafes amidst a changing global climate.
## Atmosphere & style
The conversation carries a deeply curious, analytical, and grounded tone, balancing Steven Bartlett's initial skepticism with James Hoffmann's hyper-attuned palette and expert narrative flair. It feels like an authentic, intellectual exploration driven by genuine passion rather than rigid lecture, punctuated by warm laughter and an endearing mutual respect. The narrative arc moves from rigid scientific and health calculations to fluid personal storytelling, concluding with a lighthearted, humorous exchange that highlights Hoffmann's witty and pragmatic personality.
## Key takeaways
- [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=0s) Specialty coffee has transformed over the past two decades from a cheap commodity into a celebrated craft with vast flavor diversity.
- [04:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=250s) Caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive drug; while stopping causes short-term withdrawal, it behaves as a physical dependency rather than a destructive addiction.
- [04:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=250s) Caffeine's ~5-hour half-life can heavily disrupt sleep quality, making a strict afternoon cut-off essential to protect biological health.
- [08:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=518s) For regular daily consumers, the morning caffeine boost does not enhance baseline performance, but merely restores them from a mild withdrawal state back to baseline.
- [08:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=518s) Moderate filter coffee consumption correlates with lower all-cause mortality, reduced cognitive decline, improved liver function, and rich dietary fiber/polyphenol input for gut health.
- [20:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1256s) Caffeine acts as an adenosine receptor antagonist, temporarily blocking fatigue signals while adenosine continues to build up, leading to a 'crash' once the caffeine is metabolized.
- [25:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1550s) Coffee beans are the seeds of a fruit (coffee cherry) where caffeine evolved naturally as an insect repellent.
- [28:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1713s) The potential quality of coffee is established at the farming stage, but can easily be ruined downstream during roasting or brewing.
- [31:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1870s) In blind tastings, independent specialty coffee shops consistently outperform commercial high-street chains in quality and flavor complexity at a comparable price point.
- [45:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2714s) Investing in a high-quality burr grinder matters significantly more for coffee flavor than buying an expensive espresso machine.
- [43:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2580s) Single-serve coffee pods offer maximum convenience, but represent a major trade-off in flavor quality, value per kilogram, and environmental impact.
- [51:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3095s) Climate change and rising global temperatures are threatening high-altitude specialty coffee land, pushing production higher up mountains where available land is shrinking.
- [54:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3290s) The arrival of coffee in 17th-century London replaced daily weak alcohol consumption with a non-alcoholic stimulant, fueling a massive productivity boom and birth of commercial hubs like Lloyd's.
- [01:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3600s) Ground coffee is a perishable food that oxidizes rapidly; grinding beans immediately before brewing preserves aromatic compounds and prevents rancidity.
- [01:13:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4383s) Excessive 'hustle culture' and working to extreme burnout is counterproductive and unhealthy, even when pursuing a passion.
- [01:15:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4537s) Developing strong communication skills and empathy through hospitality work helps professionals learn to read people and clearly deliver value.
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=0s) Coffee to a Connoisseur and a Culture
Steven Bartlett opens the conversation by introducing James Hoffmann as a former World Barista Champion and one of the most prominent figures in the global coffee broadcasting world, boasting close to two million subscribers on YouTube. Ahead of them sit multiple coffee samples from various suppliers, setting the stage for an extensive blind tasting. From the very beginning, James's hyper-attuned palette is on display. Tasting the first option, he immediately reacts with distinct scrutiny, stating he would be "a little bit outraged" if it turned out to be an expensive selection. Steven emphasizes how deeply James has committed his life to this single beverage, prompting an exploration of the advice James has compiled over a lifetime of study—ranging from the ideal home machinery setup to the reality of coffee pods.
The conversation establishes that the world of coffee is far more expansive than the average person realizes. While the casual drinker often views coffee as a simple, addictive morning pick-me-mup, James views it through a far more artistic and expansive lens. He compares his passion for coffee to the way others fall in love with wine—captivated by its culture, the diverse regions where it is grown, and the intricate science behind it. James describes himself as "obsessed with learning," noting that coffee encompasses everything from advanced botany to complex health science. For him, the ultimate satisfaction comes from shattering people's low expectations of what the beverage can be and introducing them to the heights of specialty coffee.
- **Global Specialty Coffee Boom:** Over the last 20 years, coffee has shifted away from being just a cheap, dark commodity to a highly celebrated craft across the world.
- **The Strange Reality of Coffee:** James reflects on how bizarre it is that humanity has normalized keeping the ground-up seeds of a tropical fruit plant in their cupboards to steep in water and drink daily.
---
[04:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=250s) Dependency, Caffeine Cycles, and the Sleep Trade-off
Steven shares his personal reservations about entering the world of coffee, explaining that he was initially put off by what looked like a widespread societal addiction. Driven by a first-principle belief that anything with a massive upside must carry an equally significant downside, Steven found himself hesitant because no one could clearly define coffee's negative trade-offs. Responding to the question of whether society is addicted, James expresses a slight dislike for the word "addiction," choosing instead to frame it as a deep "dependency." He points out that caffeine is the world's most widely consumed psychoactive drug, and while stopping abruptly will cause 24 to 48 hours of withdrawal symptoms—such as severe headaches—it does not carry the typical destructive escalation of harder drugs.
Despite his pro-coffee stance, James advises strong caution regarding excessive consumption due to its direct impact on sleep. He firmly believes that anything interrupting sleep quality damages every major biological marker, including cognition, body composition, and longevity. He warns against the common, vicious cycle where a person drinks coffee to combat fatigue from a previous poor night's sleep, only for that daytime caffeine to ruin the upcoming night's rest. Because caffeine has an approximate five-hour half-life, a significant amount remains active in the body even 10 hours after consumption, which can heavily disrupt deep sleep or delay sleep onset entirely.
- **Caffeine Cut-offs:** James enforces a strict personal cut-off, refusing to touch any caffeine after 3:00 p.m., while Steven shares that he stops drinking it after 1:00 p.m.
- **The Restaurant Espresso Paradox:** Both speakers find it amusing and slightly counterintuitive that restaurants traditionally offer shots of espresso right after dinner.
- **The Variance in Coffee Shops:** Due to numerous preparation variables, it is incredibly difficult to accurately predict exactly how much caffeine is in a cup served by a commercial coffee shop, making mindful consumption essential.
---
[08:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=518s) Habitual Tolerance and the Surprising Health Benefits
Addressing how the body builds a tolerance to caffeine, James clarifies a common misconception about its cognitive benefits. Research suggests that the sharp cognitive boosts experienced by occasional drinkers tend to disappear with habitual, daily use. For a regular drinker, that first morning cup does not elevate them from a baseline of zero to one; rather, it rescues them from a withdrawal state of minus one back up to zero. To experience the true maximum performance benefits of caffeine for sports or cognitive tests, an individual actually needs to undergo a period of abstinence beforehand.
Turning to the broader health landscape, James points out that outside of sleep disruption, coffee demonstrates remarkably positive health associations across almost every medical metric. He highlights that coffee is a surprisingly rich source of dietary fiber and packed with polyphenols, making it highly beneficial for the gut microbiome. Referencing the work of prominent British scientist Tim Spector, James explains that coffee is so dense with complex plant properties that it can legally count toward your target of 30 distinct plants a week. Extensive population studies consistently show a clear correlation between moderate coffee consumption and a reduction in all-cause mortality, as well as lower rates of cognitive decline and improved liver function.
- **The Researcher's "Cup" vs. The Consumer's Cup:** In medical and scientific literature, a standard "cup of coffee" is defined as just 120 milliliters.
- **The Optimal Dosage:** The sweet spot for health benefits—often cited as three cups in scientific studies—actually translates to only 360 to 400 milliliters of filter coffee total per day, not a massive liter-sized travel mug.
- **Decaf Advocacy:** James stands up for high-quality decaf coffee, pushing back against the "death before decaf" stigma, noting that it provides a delicious hot beverage experience with all the gut benefits and none of the sleep downsides.
[14:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=875s) Fiber, Polyphenols, and the Complexities of Studying Coffee
James Hoffmann aligns with experts like Tim Spector, framing coffee as a dietary component akin to adding another vegetable to one's daily routine. Beyond just a morning pick-me-up, coffee serves as a surprisingly potent source of polyphenols and soluble dietary fiber. In fact, large observational studies in the United States have revealed that filter coffee serves as a primary source of dietary fiber for a substantial portion of the population. While relying on beverages for baseline nutrition reflects a broader dietary issue, a large cup of filter coffee can yield up to 3 to 4 grams of soluble fiber. Given that the recommended daily intake is around 20 to 30 grams, a few cups of coffee can unexpectedly account for nearly 20–25% of an individual's daily fiber requirement—dramatically shifting the perception of coffee from a simple indulgence to a gut-nourishing beverage.
Evaluating the exact long-term health mechanisms of coffee remains notoriously difficult for scientists. Conducting a randomized controlled trial—where human subjects are tracked from age 15 to 60 with strictly regulated sleep, exercise, and diet—is virtually impossible. Consequently, researchers rely on massive epidemiological cohort studies that control for variables like smoking and exercise. These studies consistently demonstrate that moderate coffee drinkers tend to live longer and suffer fewer chronic health issues. However, Hoffmann notes the classic correlation-versus-causation dilemma: it remains uncertain whether coffee itself directly bestows these protective benefits or if healthier individuals simply gravitate toward drinking coffee.
- **Dietary Fiber Contribution:** A large cup of filter coffee provides approximately 3 to 4 grams of soluble fiber toward the daily intake target of ~20 grams.
- **Study Constraints:** Observational and epidemiological data show longevity benefits, but cause-and-effect cannot be definitively proven without lifetime controlled human trials.
- **Gut Health Alignment:** Rather than neuroprotective magic, much of coffee's physiological benefit is increasingly attributed to gut microbiome interactions with polyphenols and fiber.
---
[16:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1010s) Mental Health, Cancer Meta-Studies, and the Evolving Perception of Caffeine
When exploring the relationship between coffee, anxiety, and depression, Hoffmann adopts a pragmatic stance grounded in self-experimentation. Because terms like "anxiety" and "depression" cover a vast spectrum of psychological experiences, literature on caffeine's precise impact yields mixed outcomes. However, for those who struggle with clinical or situational anxiety, Hoffmann strongly suggests a trial elimination period: cutting out caffeine completely for a month to observe changes, even if the first few days of withdrawal feel unpleasant. In terms of oncological research, major meta-studies overwhelmingly demonstrate a lower incidence rate across almost every major cancer among regular coffee drinkers. While coffee is far from a magic cure, its net effect appears overwhelmingly positive compared to clear health hazards like cigarette smoking.
```
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Coffee & Health Relationships |
+-------------------------------------------------------------------+
| Health Factor | Associated Outcome / Practical Advice |
+----------------+--------------------------------------------------+
| Gut Health | High in polyphenols & delivers ~3-4g fiber/cup |
| Cancer Risk | Meta-studies show generally lower incidence |
| Anxiety | Highly variable; trial 30-day elimination test |
| Alzheimer's | Up to 3 cups/day correlates with reduced decline |
+----------------+--------------------------------------------------+
```
Addressing a statement Bartlett made years prior—that coffee consumption would eventually be viewed with the same health stigma as smoking cigarettes—both agree the true target of scrutiny should be pure caffeine dependency rather than coffee as a whole. Society is witnessing the birth of a "jitter-free, crash-free" movement driven by neurodiversity awareness and anxiety management. This cultural shift has fueled the rise of alternative beverages like matcha and higher-quality decaffeinated offerings. Unfortunately, decaf drinkers—whom Hoffmann praises as the purest coffee lovers because they drink it purely for flavor without the drug incentive—are historically neglected by roasters and coffee shop owners who refuse to invest in premium decaf beans.
> "Decaf drinkers are the ones who are drinking it just for the taste. They are the purest coffee consumer, actually, cause they just want the flavor. They don't even want the caffeine... Madness."
---
[20:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1256s) Cognitive Effects, Alzheimer's, and the Mechanics of Adenosine
The conversation turns to severe neurological conditions, specifically Alzheimer's disease and cognitive decline. Studies repeatedly highlight a U-shaped or plateaued benefit: drinking up to three cups of coffee a day is associated with a lower incidence of Alzheimer's and reduced cognitive drop-off in later years. When Bartlett brings up brain-imaging specialist Dr. Daniel Amen's criticism that coffee restricts cerebral blood flow, Hoffmann notes that while caffeine is often studied for its immediate performance-enhancing effects on cognitive tests, its primary impact comes down to how it alters brain chemistry via adenosine receptors.
```
[ Normal State ] [ With Caffeine ]
Adenosine ---> ( Receptor) Caffeine --X ( Blocked!)
| |
Calms heart rate & Adenosine accumulates;
promotes tiredness alertness stays high
|
[ Caffeine Clears ]
|
V V V V V V V V V V
THE CAFFEINE CRASH
(Receptors Flooded)
```
Caffeine does not actually create raw cellular energy; rather, it acts as an adenosine receptor antagonist. Throughout the day, the body naturally produces adenosine, a compound that binds to neural receptors to lower heart rate, induce calmness, and signal tiredness. Caffeine molecules mimic adenosine and plug these receptors, preventing the brain from receiving tiredness signals. As the body continues to produce adenosine in the background, a backlog builds up. Once the liver breaks down the caffeine, the accumulated wave of adenosine floods the newly freed receptors, resulting in the dreaded "caffeine crash."
- **The Huberman Protocol:** To mitigate morning crashes, experts like Andrew Huberman advocate delaying initial caffeine intake by 90 to 120 minutes after waking, allowing residual overnight adenosine to naturally clear.
- **L-Theanine Synergy:** Modern energy products often combine caffeine with L-theanine to smooth out the jittery spike and promote a calmer focus.
- **Common Dosage Metrics:**
- Standard Espresso / Small Filter: ~100 mg caffeine
- Can/Bottle of Coca-Cola: ~50–60 mg caffeine
- Pre-Workout Supplements: ~300 mg caffeine
- Low-Quality / Heavy Filter Brews: ~200–250 mg caffeine
- **Toxicity Limits:** True caffeine lethality requires extreme concentrations—typically around 50 to 60 concentrated cups in a short window, usually only reached via accidental overdose with pure powders or pills.
---
[25:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1550s) The Origin of Coffee as Fruit and Becoming a World Champion
Unpacking the botanical nature of the coffee plant, Hoffmann details how coffee originates as a fruit growing on shrub-like trees roughly two meters tall. The bright red, ripe fruit—known as a coffee cherry—resembles a grape in size. Inside every cherry sit two flat-faced seeds (the coffee beans) surrounded by thin fruit flesh and skin. While eating raw coffee cherries offers a delicious flavor profile reminiscent of tangy watermelon, the fruit flesh is minimal. In nature, caffeine evolved strictly as a natural pesticide and insect repellent. When bugs bite into the fruit, the bitter dose deters them. Interestingly, because fewer insects survive at higher altitudes, high-elevation coffees naturally produce lower concentrations of caffeine.
> "Caffeine exists in coffee primarily as an insect repellent. That's why the plant produces it, so that if an insect attacks the fruit, it gets a whack of caffeine and it's like, 'Nope.'"
Hoffmann recalls his personal journey into the coffee industry, which began around age 23 despite not initially liking or drinking coffee. His interest was ignited after reading Mark Pendergrast's or Stewart Lee Allen's travelogues—specifically *The Devil's Cup*—which traced coffee’s historical migration from Ethiopia and Yemen through Turkey into European and global societies. Fascinated by how distinct every culture's relationship to coffee is—from Italian espresso bars to Scandinavian filter habits—he dove deep into the craft. By age 25, he began competing in barista tournaments, culminating in his victory as the World Barista Champion in 2007 at age 27.
<ElicitationsGroup message="Where would you like to go next with this transcript?">
<Elicitation label="Explore the next section (Part 3: Misconceptions, Tasting, & Pods)" query="Please provide the detailed walkthrough for Part 3 of this James Hoffmann transcript series."/>
<Elicitation label="Summarize the core health takeaways from Part 2" query="Can you summarize the core health and physiological takeaways about coffee and caffeine from this section?"/>
</ElicitationsGroup>
Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of Part 3 of the interview:
[28:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1713s) Misconceptions and the Complexity of Coffee Flavor
Steven Bartlett opens this segment by asking what an everyday coffee drinker needs to know to enjoy nicer, healthier, and better-tasting coffee, and what major misconceptions still exist around the beverage. James Hoffmann explains that coffee misconceptions are actually fading faster than ever before. People are moving away from the old idea that coffee is merely a bitter, painful tax you pay every morning just to access caffeine. Historically—twenty to forty years ago—coffee had virtually no diversity of flavor; it was uniformly "brown, mean, and miserable." Today, however, people are realizing the vast spectrum of flavors available, ranging from fruity and floral to earthy, rich, and chocolatey. Hoffmann emphasizes that no matter what kind of coffee someone currently drinks, there is almost certainly something else out there they would enjoy even more.
Hoffmann breaks down the life cycle of coffee into three distinct creation stages, comparing it to wine:
1. **The Farm Level:** The raw coffee producer carefully cultivates the fruit, harvests the seeds, and processes them. Peak potential quality is established at this stage.
2. **The Roaster Level:** The green, plant-smelling bean is transformed through heat into one of the most aromatic substances in the world.
3. **The Brewing Level:** The end-user or barista brews the coffee into a beverage.
Hoffmann notes that quality can be destroyed at any stage—bad roasting or improper brewing can ruin high-grade raw beans. While making coffee shouldn't feel overly complex, it is extremely easy to mess up, leaving consumers disappointed without understanding why. His mission is to distill this process down so people only need to learn the handful of critical variables that matter most.
- **Coffee's evolution:** Shifted from dark, bitter, single-note profiles to complex fruity, floral, and rich flavor profiles.
- **Three stages of production:** Farming/Processing $\rightarrow$ Roasting $\rightarrow$ Brewing (quality can be ruined at any point).
- **Consumer experience:** People are rarely uninformed, but they are often overwhelmed by choice and price variance.
---
[31:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1870s) Blind Tasting: Dark Roasts, Olfactory Fatigue, and Coca-Cola Tricks
Steven introduces a blind taste test featuring five unmarked black coffees purchased by his team from local outlets around London. Before taking a sip, Hoffmann smells the cups to gauge their roast levels. He explains that coffee roasting used to skew heavily toward dark, oily beans, which were viewed as "fancier." In recent years, the trend has flipped toward lighter roasts because they preserve the inherent, natural characteristics of the raw bean. Sniffing Steven’s five cups, Hoffmann detects predominantly dark roasts with heavy, somewhat harsh, and slightly burnt smells, lacking fruity or floral notes.
This leads into a short tangent about olfactory perception. Steven mentions that perfume shops often offer coffee beans to clear your nasal palate. Hoffmann confirms this works because human smell relies heavily on detecting change. Continuous exposure to a single smell leads to "sensory suppression" or habituation—which is why people gradually apply too much perfume or can't tell if they smell bad after a run.
Hoffmann shares a favorite trick to demonstrate olfactory suppression using Coca-Cola:
> "If you take a component smell of Coca-Cola like lime... right? 'Coke' just tastes of Coke to people, but it's actually lime, neroli, cinnamon, orange, nutmeg. And if you smell a bunch of cinnamon and then smell Coke, it smells weird cuz you've deleted cinnamon from Coca-Cola's like aroma profile."
- **Dark vs. Light Roasts:** Darker roasts yield heavier, bitter, and burnt notes; lighter roasts preserve raw, delicate, and fruity flavor profiles.
- **Olfactory Adaptation:** The nose adapts quickly to constant scents; smelling coffee beans breaks habituation by introducing a stark change.
- **Coca-Cola's Flavor Recipe:** Contains lime, neroli, cinnamon, orange, and nutmeg.
---
[33:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2028s) Tasting the Cups: Independent vs. High-Street Chains
Steven and James taste through the five mystery cups, evaluating flavor, body, and acidity before revealing their brands and prices:
* **Cup #1:** Hoffmann notes a standard commercial taste dominated by dark roast bitterness, lacking complexity. He calls it "petrol station coffee" or vending machine coffee.
* *Hoffmann's Rating:* 4/10 (originally 2/10) | *Steven's Rating:* 5/10
* *Reveal:* **McDonald's** (£1.30 per cup).
* **Cup #2:** Distinctly different with higher acidity and a zingy, slightly sour fruitiness. Hoffmann explains that high-altitude coffee grows slower, producing sweeter beans with higher acidity. Though acidity is prized by specialty coffee roasters, it can be divisive for casual drinkers.
* *Hoffmann's Rating:* 6–7/10 | *Steven's Rating:* 6/10
* *Reveal:* **An Independent Specialty Coffee Shop** (~£3.00 per cup).
* **Cup #3:** Fuller-bodied and richer than #1, but with an earthy note that Hoffmann personally dislikes.
* *Hoffmann's Rating:* 3/10 | *Steven's Rating:* 4/10
* *Reveal:* **Costa Coffee** (£3.20 per cup).
* **Cup #4:** Very dark roast with strong bitterness, but decent underlying raw materials. Hoffmann correctly guesses it fits a Starbucks or similar commercial chain style.
* *Hoffmann's Rating:* 5/10
* *Reveal:* **Pret A Manger** (£3.20 per cup).
* **Cup #5:** Dark roast with a slightly off, "vegetably" taste profile.
* *Hoffmann's Rating:* 4/10
* *Reveal:* **Starbucks** (£3.60 per cup).
The independent coffee shop easily stood out as having superior quality, personality, and character. Among the high-street chains, Hoffmann ranked Pret highest, followed by Costa, and lastly Starbucks.
```
+--------+---------------------+--------+-----------------+-----------------------------------+
| Cup # | Brand | Price | Hoffmann Rating | Key Sensory Notes |
+--------+---------------------+--------+-----------------+-----------------------------------+
| Cup 1 | McDonald's | £1.30 | 4 / 10 | Thin, bitter, commercial grade |
| Cup 2 | Independent Shop | £3.00 | 6-7 / 10 | Zingy acidity, fruity, character |
| Cup 3 | Costa Coffee | £3.20 | 3 / 10 | Fuller body, earthy undertones |
| Cup 4 | Pret A Manger | £3.20 | 5 / 10 | Dark roast, bitter, decent beans |
| Cup 5 | Starbucks | £3.60 | 4 / 10 | Dark roast, slightly vegetably |
+--------+---------------------+--------+-----------------+-----------------------------------+
```
---
[40:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2430s) The Economics of Independent Coffee vs. Big Chains
Reflecting on the price breakdown, Steven points out that the independent coffee (£3.00) was actually cheaper than Costa (£3.20), Pret (£3.20), and Starbucks (£3.60), despite using significantly higher-quality raw materials. Hoffmann explains that early independent coffee shop owners were often terrified to price their drinks higher than Starbucks due to perceived market caps. He finds this logic flawed because independent shops lack the massive supply-chain economies of scale that global chains possess.
Hoffmann passionate defends supporting independent coffee shops:
* **The Comfort of Chains:** Multinational chains like Starbucks sell predictability and safety—customers know exactly where to queue, what food to order, and what to expect anywhere in the world (e.g., being dropped in Moscow).
* **The Reward of Independents:** While visiting an independent cafe carries a small element of novelty or risk, the quality-to-price ratio and actual coffee experience are far superior.
> "I'm always going to bat for independents because it's not like you can spend more, you can get a better product by someone who cares deeply about it... Independents feel like a risk, but the reward I think is often there for sure."
The episode pauses briefly for two host-read sponsorship messages from Steven Bartlett:
* **LinkedIn Jobs:** Steven shares that approximately 90% of his current *The Diary Of A CEO* team was hired via LinkedIn Jobs. He notes that rather than focusing on traditional CVs, he uses it to find passion, expertise, and kindness. He highlights LinkedIn's new AI-assisted job description generator.
* *Offer:* Listeners can post a job for free at `[linkedin.com/doac](https://linkedin.com/doac)`.
* **Shopify:** Steven highlights Shopify as an all-in-one e-commerce platform powering millions of businesses, including *The Diary Of A CEO*'s own product launches, such as their custom conversation card decks.
[43:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2621s) James Hoffmann's Business Empire and the Creation of a YouTube Powerhouse
When asked about his extensive entrepreneurial background, James Hoffmann acknowledges having started around 11 or 12 companies over the years. His journey as a founder began in 2008, shortly after winning the World Barista Championship, when he co-founded a coffee roasting company (Square Mile Coffee Roasters). Although he no longer handles its day-to-day operations—leaving management to a managing director while focusing on staying useful and avoiding "starting fires"—it remains his primary venture. Over two decades in the coffee industry, his business portfolio expanded to include coffee shops, distribution companies, training and educational centers, commercial espresso equipment operations, a coffee magazine, and a coffee-focused recruitment agency that he later sold.
His entry into YouTube began as an unexpected evolution from his earlier blogging days. For years, he maintained a blog to share coffee insights, operating under the philosophy that sharing knowledge yields return value. As reader interest shifted away from text-based blogs toward video, he transitioned to YouTube. Having spent 20 years struggling to make conventional coffee discussions resonate with the general public, YouTube provided the ideal format to connect with an audience. What started as an experiment unexpectedly transformed into an all-consuming core business, revealing a vast and deep public appetite for coffee content.
* **Key Ventures Started:** Specialty coffee roasting, coffee shops, equipment distribution, educational centers, recruitment, publishing, and YouTube content creation.
* **Core Philosophy on Content Creation:** Sharing knowledge freely builds long-term trust, which allows a creator to guide audiences into deeper topics over time.
---
[45:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2714s) Navigating the Home Coffee Setup: Machines vs. Grinders
Hoffmann notes that the single most common question he receives—and expects to answer for the rest of his life—is "Which coffee machine should I buy?" When the host seeks a quick recommendation for an espresso setup, Hoffmann cautions against buying home espresso equipment solely for speed or convenience. Achieving great espresso at home requires treating it as a dedicated hobby; without that passion, high-end equipment often ends up unused due to the messy, slow, and frustrating process. For those seeking daily speed, paying £2.50 to £3.00 at an independent coffee shop is often far more practical than buying an expensive setup.
For home setups, Hoffmann strongly advises prioritizing the grinder over the espresso or filter machine itself. A low-cost £20 blade grinder shatters beans unevenly into a mixture of fine dust and large chunks, leading to a bitter and sour extraction. Conversely, burr grinders use precision spinning discs to achieve consistent particle sizes, unlocking vastly better flavor even when paired with a basic £20 manual filter cone. While high-end espresso setups can cost anywhere from £2,000 up to £15,000, a high-quality filter coffee setup with a durable burr grinder can be assembled for around £150 to £200.
* **Grinder vs. Machine Priority:** A cheap blade grinder paired with a £5,000 machine produces poor coffee, whereas a quality burr grinder paired with a £20 filter brewer yields exceptional results.
* **Burr Grinder Price Point:** A reliable home burr grinder costs between £100 and £200, down from historic entry points of around £500.
* **Super-Automatic Machines:** While fully automated push-button machines offer high convenience, technical limitations prevent them from matching the quality of simple manual or semi-automatic methods.
---
[51:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3095s) Climate Change, the Ethical Future of Coffee, and Coffee Pods
Beyond reviewing equipment and teaching techniques, Hoffmann's overarching mission on YouTube is to elevate how much people value coffee so they are prepared for the economic and environmental challenges facing coffee production. Rising global temperatures force coffee farms to move higher up mountains to find the cooler temperatures required for high-quality specialty coffee. Because mountain surface area decreases at higher elevations, arable land for specialty coffee is shrinking rapidly. While cheap, low-grade coffee will remain accessible longer, premium specialty coffee faces severe supply pressures.
To ensure the long-term sustainability of the industry and support the millions of farmers operating within an inequitable supply chain, consumers must become comfortable paying slightly more—such as an extra £1.00 to £2.00 per bag. Addressing single-serve coffee pods, Hoffmann compares them to "microwave meals": highly convenient and popular, but representing a sacrifice in quality, value, and environmental sustainability. Due to packaging costs for individual 5-gram doses, coffee pods are exceptionally expensive on a per-kilogram basis, often costing as much as the world's finest specialty beans while offering inferior taste.
> "Anytime we go convenience, we have to sacrifice something. And it's usually quality. And it's usually value."
* **Impact of Rising Temperatures:** Specialty coffee growing regions are constrained by declining available land area at higher mountain altitudes.
* **Economics of Pods:** Consumers pay a high premium per kilogram for the packaging of 5-gram coffee capsules compared to buying whole bean specialty coffee.
---
[54:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3290s) The Historical Transformation: How Coffee Reshaped London's Economy
Coffee culture is virtually universal today, but historical efforts were made to suppress it. Political leaders, including James I in England, as well as European religious figures, occasionally attempted to ban coffee due to its association with seditious political discourse, though such bans were short-lived. Following its introduction to London around 1652—marked by a historical plaque near Bank tube station—coffee fundamentally altered British society. Prior to its arrival, the population consumed weak beer (2 to 3 liters daily) as a safe, high-calorie alternative to contaminated water, leaving society in a state of mild, continuous intoxication.
The arrival of coffee introduced a safe, non-alcoholic stimulant that sparked a major productivity boom and transformed London into the coffee capital of the world during the late 17th and early 18th centuries. Hundreds of coffee houses emerged across the city, quickly specializing into hubs for specific industries, literature, and politics. Notably, the global insurance marketplace Lloyd's of London originated as Lloyd's Coffee House, where maritime trade news was shared and insurance agreements were brokered; to this day, attendants at Lloyd's are still referred to as "waiters." Known as "penny universities," these establishments allowed anyone paying a one-penny entry fee to engage in intellectual debate and gain an education equal to a university degree. Although British commercial interests shifted toward tea in the late 1700s, this century of coffee-fueled sobriety profoundly accelerated modern commerce, industry, and empire.
* **First London Coffee Shop:** Established in 1652 near present-day Bank station in the City of London.
* **Social Impact:** Replaced daily weak beer consumption with a stimulating beverage, drastically altering societal productivity.
* **"Penny Universities":** Term used for 18th-century London coffee houses where a one-penny admission granted access to high-level intellectual, commercial, and political discourse.
[57:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3465s) Favorite Coffee Types and the Magic of Filter Coffee
Steven Bartlett reflects on a common misconception, admitting he spent most of his life assuming tea was caffeine-free simply because its name did not sound like caffeine. James Hoffmann points out that while tea does contain caffeine, it is nowhere near the amounts found in coffee; however, drinking 10 to 12 cups a day adds up, and factors like steeping time drastically impact the final dosage. When Steven asks James to name his all-time favorite cup of coffee, James admits that even after 20 years in the industry, he does not have a quick single answer. He prefers filter coffee over espresso-based drinks like Americanos because he wants a longer, more contemplative experience rather than a quick shot.
James highlights the captivating sensory journey of filter coffee, explaining that as a great cup cools down over 10 to 15 minutes, its flavor complex opens up and reveals hidden notes. Pressed to select just one origin country for the rest of his life, he singles out Colombia due to its extraordinary spread of flavor profiles, though he emphasizes that great (as well as cheap, low-grade) coffee is grown right across the global bean belt between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn at appropriate altitudes.
- Tea contains lower levels of caffeine than coffee, but high volume (10–12 cups daily) or longer steeping times can deliver a significant dose.
- Filter coffee refers to non-espresso methods, brewed manually or via machine by pouring water over ground coffee.
- Colombian coffees are prized for their exceptional flavor variety and high dynamic quality.
- The global coffee-growing region spans the equatorial belt between the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of Capricorn.
---
[01:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3600s) Milk, Sugar, and Treating Coffee as Fresh Food
Addressing milk and sugar, James notes that while he drinks his coffee black, he understands why others add additives. Milk acts as a natural "bitter blocker" that cuts through harsh, cheap coffee, while sugar satisfies our evolutionary craving for sweetness. However, in health studies praising coffee, benefits are almost always tied to black coffee; adding heavy creams and sugars quickly negates those positive health effects. For James, additives mask the subtle, complex flavor nuances he seeks out.
Transitioning to his book, *How to Make the Best Coffee at Home*, James dispels the popular myth that ground coffee is a shelf-stable pantry staple. Ground coffee is an inherently fragile, fresh food. Crushing coffee beans dramatically accelerates chemical oxidation—turning delicate fats rancid and releasing trapped aromatic gases—which rapidly degrades taste.
> "When you smash coffee into little pieces, when you grind it to fine powder, you kickstart a bunch of chemistry that you can't undo."
- Milk inhibits bitterness receptors and softens harsh flavors in lower-grade coffee.
- Health benefits associated with coffee consumption decrease when loaded with added sugars and high-fat creams.
- Grinding coffee causes rapid oxidation and aroma loss; most consumers notice a distinct taste drop within 24 to 48 hours.
- Whole beans and ground coffee often cost the same, making home coffee grinders a high-value investment for vastly superior flavor and aroma.
---
[01:03:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3801s) The Future of Coffee and Navigating High-Street Chains
Discussing the industry's future, James notes how the COVID-19 pandemic catalyzed an astronomical surge in home coffee equipment as consumers refused to abandon high-quality coffee during lockdowns. Looking ahead, climate change threatens high-altitude growing regions through shifting rainfall patterns, making top-tier coffee harder to cultivate and ultimately driving prices up. James embraces the idea of people shifting toward lower overall consumption of higher-quality coffee—spending money on two incredible, mindful cups a day rather than mindlessly gulping five mediocre ones.
When asked how to navigate coffee options when walking through major cities like London, James enthusiastically recommends exploring independent coffee shops, calling them the ultimate travel hack to unlock local culture and gather restaurant recommendations. Forced into a hypothetical challenge where he must choose a drink from a big high-street chain, James chooses Starbucks solely for their batch-brewed filter coffee. He reveals his personal "weird" ordering hack: inspecting the digital countdown timers on the stainless-steel coffee urns to buy a small cup from whichever batch was brewed most recently, or asking staff to manually brew a French press off-menu.
- The COVID-19 pandemic triggered an unprecedented consumer shift toward premium home brewing setup investments.
- Climate change is actively disrupting coffee farming environments, signaling higher prices for specialty coffee in the future.
- Independent specialty cafes serve as an excellent network for recommendations on local food, bakeries, and city life.
- High-street chain hack: Check the countdown timers on filter coffee urns to guarantee the freshest, least-oxidized batch.
---
[01:09:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4192s) Sleep, Obsession, and Personal Sacrifices
Turning the conversation personal, Steven asks James about his sleep habits. James shares that he protects his sleep rigorously in his 40s to look out for "future me," a stark contrast to his disregard for sleep during his 20s. Observing James's deep drive and multiple business ventures, Steven notes that James seems like an extraordinarily passionate, almost obsessive individual who likely has far more ideas than hours in the day.
Acknowledging this personality trait, James admits there is a distinct personal cost to his level of focus and career drive. When Steven presses him on what he does purely for fun, James pauses, admitting that he struggles to answer because he lacks traditional hobbies outside of work, coffee, and family life.
> "If you stopped me and said, 'What do you do for fun?' I'd have to stop and think about that for quite a long time... I don't think I have a hobby, if that makes sense."
[01:10:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4253s) Balancing Ambition, Health, and Time Management
James reflects on the persistent feeling of always having too much to do, admitting that while he occasionally "grieves emptiness in the day," he isn't sure what he would actually do if given total free time. Steven Bartlett shares that he constantly lies to himself, believing that in 5 or 10 years he will sell a business and "be a little bit more chill," a white lie he has been telling himself for 15 years. James agrees, noting that building and creating businesses is a fun game he genuinely enjoys. If he sold everything tomorrow, he would likely just start something new, though he acknowledges his perspective might shift as he gets older.
The conversation turns to health, with James wrestling with the realization that nothing is more important than physical well-being. Despite knowing this, he admits he hasn't been allocating enough time for additional cardio, weightlifting, or high-intensity interval training (HIIT). Laughing about how health expert Peter Attia has "broken my brain too," James shares that he is finally forcing himself to squeeze workout time into an already compressed schedule. He concludes that while he constantly envisions a future where he does yoga and spends more time on self-care, he accepts that his current life is dynamic and ever-changing, which suits him.
- James admits to occasionally grieving "emptiness in the day" but fears having nothing to do.
- Steven Bartlett reveals he has lied to himself for 15 years about slowing down in "5 or 10 years."
- James cites Dr. Peter Attia as a major influence on his current push toward cardio and strength training.
[01:13:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4383s) Career Advice and the Toxic "Hustle Culture"
When asked what career advice he would give to his two young children, James emphasizes the importance of leaning into genuine interests, regardless of how niche they seem. He points out that when he entered the coffee industry in the early 2000s, it was not seen as a viable or respectable career path—parents were not proud of kids working in coffee, viewing it merely as a temporary gig to pay bills. However, because he was passionate about it, he was able to flourish. He believes that creativity, empathy, and passion are crucial for the future of work, and that people's 20s should be dedicated to exploring and figuring out what excites them.
Reflecting on his 30s, James cautions against falling into the toxic trap of "hustle culture." He admits that early in his career, he fell for the grind mindset, working excessive hours to the point of almost hating the craft he loved. He strongly condemns the culture of "sleeping under your desk," calling it a lie, stupid, and deeply unhealthy. Although winning the World Barista Championship in his 20s was a milestone, he notes with a laugh that nobody in the UK cared or was impressed at the time, noting "if I was the world's best sandwich maker, that was a career, but coffee? Ah, whatever." He encourages young people to experiment and embrace failure, sharing his own past stints with terrible jobs—such as working in casinos, selling gas and electricity door-to-door, and working in music publishing—all of which helped him discover what he didn't want to do.
- Coffee in the early 2000s was viewed as a temporary stopgap rather than a respected career.
- James warns against "hustle and grind" culture and the myth of sleeping under a desk.
- Previous odd jobs James held included casino work, door-to-door energy sales, and music publishing.
[01:15:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4537s) Developing Communication Skills and Empathy in Hospitality
Steven asks James to perform a "skills audit" on himself to explain how he rose to the top of his field. James attributes much of his success to rigorous communication practice, developed through two main avenues. First, his early blogging forced him to digest complex information and explain it clearly to others. Second, in his mid-20s (around age 25 or 26), he worked as a national training manager for an espresso machine manufacturer. He drove around the UK with a commercial espresso machine, projector, and screen packed in the back of his car—acting as a "mobile café." He would set up a lecture room, present to a cold, indifferent audience of 30 people for three hours, pack it up, and drive to the next town. Though he was a terrible public speaker before, this two-year experience transformed him into someone who loves being on stage and creating videos.
James also highlights empathy as a vital component of communication, advocating strongly for hospitality experience. Working in cafés or restaurants teaches people to constantly read customers to determine their immediate needs. He defines a great coffee shop as a "reliable vendor of happiness" where customers leave in a better mood than when they entered. Achieving this requires reading subtle social cues—knowing whether a customer wants a detailed conversation about coffee beans or just wants the barista to "shut up and make it as fast as I can." Steven validates this analysis, praising James as a true "practitioner" rather than a parrot, noting his curiosity, narrative flair, and naturally endearing, smiling presence.
- James traveled the UK at age 25–26 with a mobile café setup in his car, speaking to audiences of ~30 people for 3 hours at a time.
- He defines a coffee shop's core purpose as being a "reliable vendor of happiness."
- Steven contrasts "practitioners" who learn through real-world craft with "parrots" who merely repeat information.
[01:19:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4780s) Final Message on Coffee and a Hilarious Closing Question
Summarizing his core philosophy for a global audience, James states that coffee is fundamentally about fun: "if you are willing to put in a little tiny bit, I guarantee you will get way more out." No matter how someone enjoys their cup, coffee always has more to give. Steven expresses that the conversation has reignited his own excitement for coffee, prompting James to invite Steven to a private coffee tasting near the studio—an invitation Steven enthusiastically promises to take up.
Moving to the podcast's signature closing tradition—where the previous guest leaves a question for the next—Steven bursts out laughing before reading it aloud. He warns James that he won't believe the question, asking: "What is the duration of your nighttime erections?" James immediately guesses the source with a grin, asking, "Did you just have Bryan Johnson on here?" James jokes that the bio-hacking device Johnson uses was sold out when he checked, laughingly concluding that he doesn't track that metric.
- James's overarching message to 8 billion people: coffee requires very little effort to unlock immense fun and reward.
- James immediately correctly identifies tech entrepreneur Bryan Johnson as the author of the absurd closing question.
[01:21:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4888s) Showcase of James Hoffmann's Books & Sponsor Outro
The episode wraps up with Steven praising James’s published works. He holds up *The World Atlas of Coffee* (now in its second edition), calling it one of the most beautiful books he has ever seen, filled with rich photography, history, and machinery breakdowns. Steven also highlights James's practical guide, *How to Make The Best Coffee at Home*, praising its ability to explain brewing mechanics in simple, accessible "muggle detail." James explains that while the *Atlas* was written to help people navigate the overwhelming "new wave" of specialty coffee, his home brewing book strips away the "voodoo" and weird traditions to focus purely on what impacts flavor in a home setup. Steven wraps up the recording by jokingly promising to grab a McDonald's coffee right after the interview.
In a brief post-show sponsor segment, Steven highlights Huel's new nutritionally complete snack bar. He explains that after three years of development, Huel created a bar packed with protein, 27 vitamins and minerals, and only 2 grams of sugar that actually tastes delicious rather than like "Play-Doh or cardboard."
- *The World Atlas of Coffee* (2nd Edition) serves as a comprehensive global guidebook to specialty coffee.
- *How to Make The Best Coffee at Home* focuses on practical, fluff-free techniques for home brewers.
- Sponsor callout: Huel’s new snack bar features 27 vitamins/minerals and 2g of sugar.
## Notable quotes
> [16:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1010s) Decaf drinkers are the ones who are drinking it just for the taste. They are the purest coffee consumer, actually, cause they just want the flavor. They don't even want the caffeine... Madness. — James Hoffmann
> [25:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1550s) Caffeine exists in coffee primarily as an insect repellent. That's why the plant produces it, so that if an insect attacks the fruit, it gets a whack of caffeine and it's like, 'Nope.' — James Hoffmann
> [31:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1910s) If you take a component smell of Coca-Cola like lime... right? 'Coke' just tastes of Coke to people, but it's actually lime, neroli, cinnamon, orange, nutmeg. And if you smell a bunch of cinnamon and then smell Coke, it smells weird cuz you've deleted cinnamon from Coca-Cola's like aroma profile. — James Hoffmann
> [40:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2430s) I'm always going to bat for independents because it's not like you can spend more, you can get a better product by someone who cares deeply about it... Independents feel like a risk, but the reward I think is often there for sure. — James Hoffmann
> [51:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3095s) Anytime we go convenience, we have to sacrifice something. And it's usually quality. And it's usually value. — James Hoffmann
> [01:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3600s) When you smash coffee into little pieces, when you grind it to fine powder, you kickstart a bunch of chemistry that you can't undo. — James Hoffmann
> [01:09:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4192s) If you stopped me and said, 'What do you do for fun?' I'd have to stop and think about that for quite a long time... I don't think I have a hobby, if that makes sense. — James Hoffmann
> [01:19:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4780s) if you are willing to put in a little tiny bit, I guarantee you will get way more out. — James Hoffmann
> [01:20:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4825s) What is the duration of your nighttime erections? — Steven Bartlett
> [01:20:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4835s) Did you just have Bryan Johnson on here? — James Hoffmann
## Mentioned
James Hoffmann, Steven Bartlett, The Diary Of A CEO, Julian Metcalfe, Pret A Manger, Tim Spector, Dr. Daniel Amen, Andrew Huberman, Mark Pendergrast, Stewart Lee Allen, World Barista Championship, McDonald's, Costa Coffee, Starbucks, LinkedIn Jobs, Shopify, Square Mile Coffee Roasters, Lloyd's of London, How to Make The Best Coffee at Home, The World Atlas of Coffee, Peter Attia, Bryan Johnson, Huel, Apple Podcast, Spotify, Instagram, Twitter, LinkedIn
James Hoffmann探讨日常饮用咖啡对健康及肠道的益处
日常适度饮用咖啡可提供促进肠道健康的重要膳食纤维与多酚，并在咖啡因不损害睡眠质量的前提下降低长期全因死亡率。
前世界咖啡师大赛冠军 James Hoffmann 深入剖析了咖啡复杂的植物学特性、健康指标及其文化演变，改变了人们以往将咖啡视为清晨苦涩成瘾品的印象，转而将其看作备受推崇、有益肠道健康的精湛手艺。讨论内容涵盖了咖啡因作为腺苷受体拮抗剂的作用机制、过滤咖啡中膳食纤维与多酚出人意料的健康益处，以及为避免午后饮用影响睡眠质量而应遵循的严格准则。此外，Hoffmann 还通过盲测评估了主流商业连锁品牌，分享了优先选购家用磨豆机的实用建议，并反思了在全球气候变化背景下独立咖啡馆所面临的经济现实。
咖啡因是全球消耗最广泛的精神类物质，断饮虽会引发短期戒断反应，但属于生理依赖而非毁灭性成瘾；因其约5小时的半衰期会显著破坏睡眠质量，建立严格的午后断饮时间对健康至关重要。 (4:10)
对于日常规律饮用者而言，早晨的第一杯咖啡并不能提升基础认知能力，仅是将身体从轻度戒断状态恢复至常态；若要获得咖啡因对体能或认知的真实增益，必须事先经历一段时间的断饮。 (8:38)
适量饮用过滤咖啡（每日约360至400毫升）与降低全因死亡率及减缓认知衰退高度相关，且单杯大容量过滤咖啡富含3至4克可溶性膳食纤维及多酚，有显著的肠道菌群调节效果。 (14:35)
咖啡因本质上是腺苷受体拮抗剂而非直接提供能量，它通过暂时阻断疲劳信号使体内腺苷不断堆积，待咖啡因被肝脏代谢后便会引发受体泛滥及断崖式疲惫（crash）。 (20:56)
在家庭冲煮配置中，磨豆机的优先级远高于咖啡机：一台100至200英镑的齿盘磨豆机（burr grinder）搭配20英镑的简易滤杯，萃取表现远优于昂贵意式机搭配劣质刀片研磨机。 (45:14)
Reading summary
Former World Barista Champion James Hoffmann frames coffee as a complex, perishable agricultural product rather than a simple commodity stimulant, asserting that its significant gut and longevity benefits require mindful brewing, proper dosing, and strict sleep management.
Caffeine Mechanics, Dependency, and Sleep Impacts (4:10)
Hoffmann describes habitual coffee drinking as a physiological dependency rather than a destructive addiction, noting that abrupt cessation primarily triggers short-term withdrawal symptoms like headaches for 24 to 48 hours. Mechanistically, caffeine acts as an adenosine receptor antagonist rather than a direct energy source; it binds to neural receptors to block tiredness signals while adenosine continues to accumulate in the background. Once the liver metabolizes the caffeine, this built-up backlog floods the cleared receptors, creating the standard caffeine crash. Hoffmann also clarifies that daily habitual consumption eliminates acute cognitive enhancements, meaning a regular drinker's morning cup merely rescues them from a withdrawal state of minus one back to baseline zero.
Because caffeine has an approximate five-hour half-life, significant amounts remain active in the body 10 hours after consumption, disrupting deep sleep and degrading cognitive and physical health markers. Hoffmann enforces a personal caffeine cut-off at 3:00 p.m. (and host Steven Bartlett cuts off intake at 1:00 p.m.). To prevent early crashes and allow residual overnight adenosine to clear naturally, protocols such as delaying initial caffeine intake by 90 to 120 minutes after waking are highlighted. Beverage-based caffeine lethality remains exceedingly rare, typically requiring 50 to 60 concentrated cups consumed within a narrow window.
Nutritional Density, Health Associations, and Decaf (8:38)
Beyond its stimulant properties, Hoffmann highlights coffee as a rich source of polyphenols and soluble dietary fiber. Drawing on research cited by scientist Tim Spector, Hoffmann notes that a large cup of filter coffee delivers roughly 3 to 4 grams of soluble fiber toward the daily 20-to-30-gram target, while also contributing toward weekly plant diversity recommendations. Large epidemiological studies consistently correlate moderate coffee intake with reduced all-cause mortality, better liver function, and lower risks of cognitive decline and certain cancers. However, Hoffmann notes that long-term randomized controlled trials are virtually impossible to conduct, leaving the correlation versus causation distinction unresolved.
Hoffmann stresses that scientific literature defines a standard "cup" as only 120 milliliters, meaning the optimal three-cup daily intake equates to roughly 360 to 400 milliliters of filter coffee, rather than oversized servings. Positive health associations are heavily tied to black coffee, as added sugars and high-fat dairy offset metabolic benefits. For consumers struggling with anxiety, Hoffmann recommends a 30-day trial elimination, while also advocating for high-quality decaffeinated coffee, which provides gut microbiome and polyphenol benefits without disrupting sleep architecture.
Chain Economics, Independent Cafes, and Blind Tastings (33:48)
In a blind tasting of five black coffees sourced across London, Hoffmann contrasted commercial high-street chains with specialty brewing. An independent specialty coffee (£3.00) scored highest (6–7/10) due to vibrant acidity and fruit notes from slow-maturing, high-altitude crops. Commercial alternatives scored lower: Pret A Manger (£3.20) registered 5/10 with dark bitterness; McDonald’s (£1.30) scored 4/10 as standard commercial grade; Costa Coffee (£3.20) scored 3/10 with an earthy profile; and Starbucks (£3.60) scored 4/10 with dark, slightly vegetal notes.
This tasting highlighted an economic distortion: the independent coffee was cheaper than three major commercial chains despite using higher-grade raw materials. Hoffmann explains that multinational chains sell predictability and logistical convenience, whereas independent cafes often hesitate to price drinks above chain ceilings despite lacking global economies of scale. Hoffmann also criticizes single-serve coffee capsules as the "microwave meals" of the coffee sector, pointing out that paying for individual 5-gram packaging creates an exorbitant price per kilogram comparable to elite specialty beans while sacrificing cup quality.
Home Brewing Equipment and Climate Supply Risks (45:14)
For home preparation, Hoffmann urges consumers to prioritize the grinder over the brewing machine. Low-cost £20 blade grinders shatter beans into an uneven mix of fine dust and large chunks, causing simultaneous bitter over-extraction and sour under-extraction. Conversely, pairing a reliable £100 to £200 burr grinder with an inexpensive £20 manual filter cone produces superior extraction compared to a £5,000 espresso machine fed by an inconsistent grind. Additionally, Hoffmann treats coffee as fresh produce rather than a shelf-stable dry good; grinding initiates rapid oxidation, resulting in measurable flavor and aroma degradation within 24 to 48 hours.
Looking to the industry's future, environmental pressures threaten the specialty supply chain. Rising global temperatures compel farms to seek higher mountain elevations for adequate growing conditions. Because land surface area naturally contracts at higher altitudes, arable land suitable for premium Arabica is declining. While low-grade commercial coffee will remain broadly available, high-altitude specialty beans face severe supply bottlenecks, requiring consumers to pay slightly higher prices to support sustainable farming practices.
Hoffmann concludes that optimizing coffee consumption requires viewing the bean as fresh produce, prioritizing grind consistency over expensive machinery, and managing caffeine timing to protect sleep, all while the industry navigates climate-driven production limits.
## Background
本期视频由知名商业与访谈播客《The Diary Of A CEO》的主持人 Steven Bartlett 于 2023 年 11 月 20 日发布在 YouTube 平台上。访谈邀请到了前世界咖啡师大赛（WBC）冠军、著名咖啡权威 James Hoffmann，深入探讨了咖啡因对身心健康的影响机制、咖啡制作与品鉴的底层认知，以及全球咖啡产业面临的现实挑战。
## TL;DR
节目围绕咖啡的科学、风味、商业与历史展开了全方位探讨。James Hoffmann 深入剖析了咖啡因阻断腺苷受体的疲劳掩盖机制，警示大众切勿牺牲核心的睡眠质量，并科普了黑咖啡在膳食纤维、肠道菌群与健康长寿方面的积极作用。在现场进行的盲测环节中，两人直观对比了麦当劳、独立精品馆与各大商业连锁咖啡的风味与定价逻辑，破除了家用浓缩咖啡机的选购误区并力证磨豆机的重要性。最后，访谈还探讨了气候变暖对精品咖啡产业的冲击，以及 James 从咖啡师一路创业与锤炼沟通技能的人生哲学。
## Atmosphere & style
整场对话在专业严谨与轻松幽默之间自如切换，散发着沉稳内敛而又充满热情的英式知性魅力。James Hoffmann 说话条理清晰、语调温和克制，面对各种商业营销和消费迷思总能一针见血地直击本质；Steven Bartlett 则带着敏锐的好奇心与批判性思维不断深挖底层逻辑，两人在盲测环节的直率吐槽更增添了十足的趣味性。倾听这场对话宛如在安静的书房中与一位顶级匠人对饮清咖，既有硬核前沿的知识洗礼，又充满对日常生活细节的细腻体悟。
## Bulletin
- [21:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1308s) 咖啡因并不能提供真实的物理能量，而是通过抢先阻断大脑中的腺苷受体来屏蔽疲劳信号；随着咖啡因代谢殆尽，游离腺苷会集中结合导致断崖式疲惫。
- [12:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=746s) 科学文献中建议“每日饮用三杯咖啡收益最高”的标准杯量仅为 120 ml（约 360-400 ml 滴滤咖啡），大众以两三百毫升大马克杯为单位极易导致摄入严重过量。
- [48:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2916s) 家庭咖啡设备投资中，盘式磨豆机（Burr Grinder）的权重远超咖啡机本身，百余英镑的优秀磨豆机搭配便宜滤杯即可萃取出卓越风味，而廉价砍豆机会导致萃取极度不均。
- [51:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3115s) 受气候变暖影响，适宜种植精品咖啡的 1500 至 2000 米高山面积急剧缩减，未来廉价工业咖啡虽能留存，但优质精品咖啡将日益稀缺且面临价格上涨。
- [01:00:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3628s) 咖啡豆研磨后即转化为极易衰败的“生鲜食品”，表面积骤增会引发不可逆的氧化与芳香物逸散，通常在 24 至 48 小时内就会出现断崖式的风味劣化。
## Key takeaways
- [08:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=527s) 日常饮用咖啡带来的提神感本质上是将身体从脱瘾的 -1 状态拉回 0 的常态基线，而非提升至 +1；若想最大化体能或认知爆发，应在事前提前禁断重置敏感度。
- [04:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=244s) 睡眠质量是饮用咖啡不可逾越的生理红线，鉴于咖啡因约 5 小时的半衰期，过量或过晚摄入会削弱深度睡眠，引发次日疲惫继而依赖更多咖啡因的恶性循环。
- [14:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=868s) 黑咖啡富含可溶性膳食纤维（一杯可达 3 克）与多酚，其摄入类似于在饮食中增添深色蔬菜，对肠道微生物多样性具有显著促进作用。
- [16:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1010s) 针对抑郁与焦虑等心理挑战，咖啡因的兴奋刺激可能激化症状，最直接的生活干预手段是彻底停饮一个月以客观评估身心反应。
- [20:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1210s) 优质低因咖啡（Decaf）保留了绝大部分天然风味与健康有益成分，但长期因烘焙商与咖啡馆的不重视而遭到产业链边缘化。
- [25:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1550s) 咖啡因在自然界的演化初衷是作为咖啡树的天然杀虫剂，这也是高海拔虫害较少区域所产咖啡豆咖啡因含量普遍偏低的生态原因。
- [28:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1696s) 咖啡风味由庄园种植处理、工厂烘焙及最终冲煮萃取这“三个生命阶段”共同塑造，任何单一环节的瑕疵都会导致最终杯中品质崩塌。
- [39:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2366s) 五款咖啡盲测结果表明，三大主流连锁商业咖啡（Pret、Costa、星巴克）杯中风味高度同质化且偏向深烘焦苦，而独立精品咖啡馆以更低或相当的定价展现出了明亮酸质与产区个性。
- [45:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2736s) 普通家庭用户切忌盲目购买昂贵的家用半自动浓缩咖啡机，其严苛的操作与繁琐的清洁维护极易在短时间内让人心生厌烦。
- [53:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3189s) 胶囊咖啡在本质上类似“微波炉便当”，换算成每公斤单价极其昂贵且伴随包装浪费，消费者支付的巨额溢价完全是在为便利性买单。
- [54:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3291s) 17 世纪伦敦咖啡馆的兴起终结了全城全天饮用低度啤酒带来的昏沉状态，通过信息交流孵化出商业机构，演变为极具启蒙色彩的“便士大学”。
- [58:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3494s) 牛奶在生理学上充当了“苦味阻断剂”，能够遮盖劣质咖啡的焦苦感，而大多数长寿科研数据所支撑的健康益处均建立在纯饮黑咖啡的基础之上。
- [01:08:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4109s) 星巴克等连锁品牌点单的内行技巧在于观察保温桶上的倒计时，挑选离报废丢弃时间最远的一桶，以确保喝到刚冲煮出来的新鲜滴滤咖啡。
- [01:13:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4383s) 年轻人的职业生涯应提防盲目内卷的奋斗剥削文化，20 岁应当广泛试错排雷并寻找兴趣点，30 岁后再全神贯注深耕核心领域。
- [01:16:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4572s) 服务业是磨炼同理心与沟通能力的极佳熔炉，咖啡师通过敏锐捕捉顾客情绪需求（如交流或快速出杯）所沉淀的察言观色技巧，具备极高的跨行业可迁移性。
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=0s) 精彩看点与盲测预告
访谈在一组极具冲击力的快剪中拉开序幕。主持人 Steven Bartlett 为前世界咖啡师大赛（World Barista Championship）冠军、拥有近 200 万 YouTube 订阅者的咖啡权威 James Hoffmann 准备了多款来自不同商家的咖啡进行盲测。James 抿了一口一号样本，毫不客气地评价道："要是这杯很贵，我会觉得奇怪……甚至会有点愤怒。" 随后他对其他样本给出了从"有点古怪"到"非常有趣"等截然不同的评价，并指着其中一杯直言："如果你想要最极致的咖啡体验，选这一杯。"
快剪中迅速穿插了本期节目的核心干货与争议性话题：家庭冲煮时千万不要盲目购买意式浓缩咖啡机（Espresso machine）；胶囊咖啡在本质上就像是"微波炉加热食品"；咖啡豆一旦开封，风味便会以极快的速度流失衰竭；去星巴克时如果想点得"彻底古怪"，他会有令人意想不到的选择；如果只有 100 英镑的设备预算，研磨机（磨豆机）远比咖啡机更值得投资。快剪同时抛出了关于咖啡生理机制与宏观产业的宏大命题：我们是否对世界上消费最广的精神活性物质上了瘾？从数据来看，咖啡富含膳食纤维，就像在日常饮食中加入了一种新蔬菜，不仅能提升认知测试表现，甚至与更长的预期寿命相关。然而，面对气候与环境的变迁，咖啡却面临着一个极为令人沮丧的未来。
### [01:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=88s) 主持人的订阅呼吁
在正片正式开场前，Steven Bartlett 分享了一组后台数据：长期频繁观看该频道的观众中，竟然有 69.9% 的人尚未点击订阅。他真诚地向观众发起请求，解释订阅不仅能够直接帮助节目提升嘉宾阵容和制作规格，让播客越做越好，更承诺团队会用持续精进的内容质量来回报这份支持。
### [02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=129s) 为什么是咖啡？二十年的探索与迷恋
Steven 切入正题，询问 James Hoffmann 为何愿意将人生如此巨大的精力倾注在一杯饮品、一颗小小的咖啡豆上。James 坦言，核心原因非常纯粹——因为热爱，咖啡能带给他极致的愉悦感。大约 20 年前他就彻底爱上了这门学问。他曾尝试涉足葡萄酒行业，人们很容易理解为什么有人会迷恋葡萄酒的文化、风土和产地，而咖啡完全拥有同等、甚至更为广阔的维度。
对 James 而言，他有着永无止境的求知欲，而咖啡是一个宏大到不可思议的领域。尽管大众常将其视为一个小众垂直爱好，但咖啡实际上无处不在，深度融入了全球各地的文化中。它涵盖了植物学、萃取科学、感官分析乃至人体健康等极为繁复的跨学科知识，"你可以花上几辈子去学习它，却永远学不完"。更令他着迷的是咖啡能给人带来的强烈惊喜感：由于普通大众对咖啡的普遍预期往往很低，当你冲煮出一杯颠覆认知的好咖啡并递给他们、打破其原有预期时，那种成就感令人百看不厌。
### [03:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=202s) 从生活惯性到精品咖啡浪潮
面对咖啡的日常化，James 感叹咖啡在人类生活中的存在本身就是一件令人惊叹的奇妙现象。一百多年来，人类早已习以为常地把一种热带水果植物的种子烘焙、研磨成粉，存放在厨房橱柜里，然后每天用水浸泡萃取来饮用——从客观角度看，这是人类一种相当奇特的生活行为。
但在过去很长一段时间里，咖啡都被当成纯粹的大宗商品（Commodity）。直到最近 20 年，随着全球"精品咖啡"（Specialty Coffee）浪潮的爆发，人们才真正开始展现咖啡的风味多样性与精致潜力。如今在世界各国，大众对咖啡的认知和品质期待已经发生了天翻地覆的根本性转变。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 咖啡演进认知历程
accDescr: 展示咖啡从传统大宗商品属性向第三波精品咖啡认知的演变流程。
subgraph Traditional["传统大宗商品阶段"]
A["热带植物种子烘焙研磨"] --> B["生活日常惯性饮品"]
B --> C["大众风味预期偏低"]
end
subgraph Specialty["精品咖啡浪潮"]
D["探索风味多样性与风土差异"] --> E["认知与品质期待重塑"]
E --> F["极致感官体验与科学萃取"]
end
C --> D
```
### [04:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=244s) 瘾还是依赖？咖啡因的双刃剑与睡眠警钟
Steven Bartlett 分享了自己接触咖啡的心路历程。他坦言自己很晚才开始喝咖啡，且消费量一直很低。早期劝退他的主要原因在于，整个社会似乎都对咖啡陷入了集体成瘾；按照第一性原理推导，任何具有显著益处（如提升专注力、增强能量）的事物往往伴随着巨大的潜在代价，但身边的咖啡客却似乎说不清代价究竟是什么，这让他对涉足这种"成瘾"抱有戒心。
针对"成瘾"（Addicted）这个措辞，James 表达了相对谨慎的学术态度。虽然咖啡因确实是世界上消费最广泛的精神活性物质（Psychoactive drug），并且深深嵌入了现代社会运行的肌理之中，但他更倾向于用"依赖"（Dependency）来定义：
- **戒断症状与成瘾的区别**：如果骤然停饮咖啡，人体确实会在 24 至 48 小时内出现明显的生理反应，最典型的就是严重的咖啡因戒断性头痛；但与真正的毒瘾不同，一个人戒掉咖啡后，即使数年不饮用，也不会产生那种病态难耐、不可自拔的心理渴求（Urge）。
- **睡眠破坏与恶性循环**：James 强调过量摄入咖啡因的最大隐患在于损害睡眠。除了照顾新生儿等极少数情况外，任何破坏睡眠质量的因素都应极力避免，因为睡眠直接决定了认知能力、身体成分乃至长寿表现。过多摄入咖啡因导致夜间睡眠浅，次日白天疲惫不堪，于是人们借助更多咖啡因提神，进而导致下一晚睡眠更差，最终陷入自我消耗的恶性循环。
- **代谢半衰期与摄入控制**：咖啡因在人体内的半衰期约为 5 小时左右。这意味着即使在饮用 10 小时之后，体内仍残留约四分之一的咖啡因，足以推迟入睡时间或大幅削弱深度睡眠质量。
### [07:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=431s) 盲盒般的咖啡因剂量与个体代谢差异
对于欧美餐饮文化中晚餐后提供一杯意式浓缩咖啡（Espresso）的习惯，Steven 和 James 都感到匪夷所思。民间虽有咖啡能充当"餐后助消化剂"的说法，但 James 直言经过文献查阅，并没有充足严谨的科学证据支持这一观点。出于对自身睡眠的严苛保护，James 给自己设定了下午 3 点的绝对红线（Hard cut-off），此后绝不触碰任何咖啡因。
与此同时，咖啡因对不同个体的影响存在巨大的基因差异。人体内负责代谢咖啡因的酶活性不同，直接导致了"快速代谢者"与"慢速代谢者"的区分——有些人晚上喝完浓缩依然能安睡如初，而有些人午后一杯便会彻夜难眠。更为棘手的是，在日常咖啡馆中，冲煮参数、粉水比、萃取时间以及咖啡豆品种的微小变化，都会剧烈改变最终杯中咖啡因的实际含量。消费者在绝大多数情况下完全处于"盲盒用药"状态，根本无法确知自己摄入了多少毫克的精神活性活性物质。因此，James 极力倡导"具知觉的正念摄入"（Mindful consumption）：在享受咖啡带来极致风味的同时，必须清醒地评估并规避其潜在的健康代价。
### [08:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=527s) 咖啡耐受性与“从负一到零”的提神机制
关于咖啡因是否会像精神类药物一样产生耐受性，让人在数月后需要加倍剂量才能达到同样的警觉度，James Hoffmann 给出了一个“既是又不是”的回答。科学研究表明，咖啡因对认知能力的实际提升效果会随着长期习惯性饮用而逐渐消失，即使摄入更多咖啡也无法逆转这种边际递减。许多人早晨喝完第一杯咖啡感受到的所谓“愉悦与清醒”，本质上并不是将状态从 0 提升到 1，而是将身体从脱瘾症状的 -1 拉回到了 0 的基线状态。换句话说，这只是消除了戒断反应，让人感觉“我终于恢复正常了”。因此，如果想在认知测试或体育运动中获得咖啡因的最大收益，真正有效的方法是在目标事件前彻底禁断咖啡一段时间，然后再重新摄入。
咖啡因虽然存在适应机制，但它不会像成瘾性硬性毒品那样无休止地升级剂量。日常饮用者不会突然需要狂饮 6 到 10 杯来找感觉，喝到那个量只会单纯让人感觉身体怪异且不适。Steven Bartlett 从个人生活的第一性原理出发提出了质疑：他平时甚至连扑热息痛（Paracetamol）等常备药都尽量避免，宁可忍受头痛也不愿轻易服药，因为他坚信凡事皆有生理代价。他观察到整个西方社会的人们习惯性地每天喝三四杯甚至更多咖啡，整天靠着咖啡续命并在下班路上再来一杯，嘴里念叨着“不喝咖啡我根本无法正常运转”，这种对单一物质的全面依赖在他看来近乎疯狂。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 咖啡因摄入与认知状态变化机制
accDescr: 对比长期习惯性饮用与重置禁断后再饮用对认知表现的不同影响
subgraph Habitual["习惯性日常饮用"]
A["晨起戒断状态 (-1)"] --> B["摄入日常咖啡"]
B --> C["恢复常态基线 (0)"]
C -.->|"过度加量"| D["身体不适/怪异反应"]
end
subgraph Reset["禁断重置机制"]
E["彻底禁断咖啡一段时间"] --> F["耐受性重置回到真实基线 (0)"]
F --> G["特定节点摄入咖啡"]
G --> H["认知/运动能力提升 (+1)"]
end
```
- 咖啡因的认知增强红利会因日常习惯性摄入而钝化，加量并不能换取同等倍数的兴奋感。
- 早晨第一杯咖啡的满足感，本质是缓解夜间形成的轻微戒断反应（从 -1 回到 0）。
- 极限提升认知或体能的最佳策略是阶段性断绝咖啡因以重置机体敏感度。
---
### [10:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=640s) 睡眠质量是不可逾越的红线与低因咖啡的价值
面对饮用咖啡是否存在隐性代价的疑问，James Hoffmann 指出，如果说咖啡确实存在必须警惕的负面成本，那么“睡眠受损”就是绝对的核心红线。只要咖啡摄入不干扰睡眠质量，现存的大多数科学文献都表明咖啡对身体具有极其广泛的正面影响。尽管 Hoffmann 自谦并非专业科学家，但他热衷于阅读各类科研论文，从现有的数据来看，咖啡在绝大多数受测维度上都表现出了积极健康的关联性。然而，如果为了喝咖啡而牺牲了深度睡眠，那么无论它能提供多么惊人的抗氧化或其他生理红利，都是得不偿失的。
Steven Bartlett 对此深有共鸣，直言睡眠已经成为他过去一年里最为痴迷的健康指标。为了彻底杜绝咖啡对睡眠的潜在破坏，Steven 坚持在每天下午 1 点之后坚决不再摄入任何咖啡，Hoffmann 对这一策略表示高度赞同。与此同时，Hoffmann 也极力为低因咖啡（Decaf）正名。在精品咖啡文化或主流大众认知中，很多人抱着“不含咖啡因还喝什么咖啡”甚至“宁死不喝低因”（Death before decaf）的鄙视链偏见。Hoffmann 强调，经过现代脱因工艺处理的高品质低因咖啡同样可以拥有美妙的口感，它不仅是一杯好喝的温暖饮品，更能让人们在享受咖啡风味与健康成分的同时，完全免受咖啡因破坏睡眠的后顾之忧。
- 评估咖啡利弊的终极红线是睡眠质量，牺牲睡眠换取的提神收益在生理层面上并不划算。
- 设定摄入截止时间（如午后 1:00）是避免咖啡因半衰期干扰夜间睡眠的有效手段。
- 高品质低因咖啡（Decaf）保留了绝大部分风味与健康有益物质，是下午或晚间饮用的绝佳替代方案。
---
### [12:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=746s) 延长寿命、肠道菌群与科研中对“一杯咖啡”的误区
关于咖啡在长寿与微生物层面的研究，Steven 提到了著名流行病学与肠道专家 Tim Spector 态度的转变——Spector 最初对咖啡的健康价值持中立观望态度，但在深入研究后彻底转变为坚定的挺咖啡派，甚至将黑咖啡列为每周建议摄入的 30 种植物性多样化饮食之一。流行病学研究一再显示，经常适量饮用咖啡与全因死亡率（All-cause mortality）的下降存在显著相关性，简而言之，长期喝咖啡的人早逝的概率在统计学上更低，并且在延缓老年认知衰退、保护肝功能以及降低某些癌症风险方面均呈现积极信号。
然而，Hoffmann 针对公众对研究数据的误读提出了极其重要的纠偏：科学论文中的“一杯咖啡”与大众日常认知中的“大马克杯”存在严重认知偏差。普通人眼中的一杯咖啡通常是两三百毫升甚至更大，但在科研实验标准中，所谓的“一杯”（One cup）往往仅指 120 毫升（大约只有普通马克杯的一半体积）。因此，当科学文献建议“每天饮用三杯咖啡收益最高”时，其对应的实际摄入总量仅为 360 至 400 毫升的滴滤黑咖啡，或者两到三杯单份浓缩咖啡（Single espresso）。这种术语定义上的脱节很容易误导大众，诱导人们每天无节制地灌进一升甚至更多的过量咖啡。
| 概念维度 | 科研文献标准定义 | 大众日常生活认知 | 潜在偏差与影响 |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **单杯容量** | 约 120 ml（轻巧规格） | 250 ~ 350+ ml（大马克杯/外带大杯） | 容量认知相差两倍以上 |
| **“每日三杯”总量** | 约 360 ~ 400 ml 滴滤咖啡 | 800 ~ 1000+ ml 咖啡液体 | 容易导致咖啡因与液体摄入严重超标 |
| **浓缩折算** | 约 2 ~ 3 份单份意式浓缩 (Single Espresso) | 多份双倍浓缩或大杯拿铁 | 产生心悸、焦虑及耐受度过载风险 |
---
### [14:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=868s) 肠道中的超级植物：纤维素、多酚与流行病学局限
在探究咖啡豆为何能带来深远健康益处的机制时，Hoffmann 认为这远超单一咖啡因的作用范围。咖啡因本身并未被证实具有决定性的神经保护功能，其真正的健康密码很可能藏在可溶性膳食纤维和丰富的多酚（Polyphenols）之中。咖啡本质上是由一种热带植物的种子萃取而成，饮用咖啡就像是将另一种深色蔬菜引入日常膳食，极大丰富了肠道微生物菌群的多样性。令人震惊的是，美国甚至有研究表明，对于部分现代人而言，日常饮用的滴滤咖啡竟然成了他们膳食纤维的主要来源。
一杯大容量黑咖啡可能含有多达 3 克的膳食纤维。如果以人体每天建议摄入的 20 至 30 克纤维标准来衡量，仅一杯咖啡就贡献了将近 10% 到 15% 的纤维缺口。Hoffmann 笑着回忆起自己以前对纤维的刻板印象，认为那无非就是“像吃硬纸板一样干瘪难咽的棕色全麦谷物”，从来没有想过一杯澄澈温热的黑咖啡里竟然蕴含着如此丰富的可溶性纤维。
不过，Hoffmann 也客观指出了目前所有咖啡健康研究的局限性：
- 科学界无法开展长达几十年的严格随机对照试验（RCT），即不可能把一群人从 15 岁圈养控制到 60 岁，在完全锁定饮食、运动和睡眠变量的前提下去随机分配咖啡饮用量。
- 目前所有支持长寿或预防疾病的结论均源自大型观察性流行病学研究（Epidemiological studies），虽然研究人员尽力控制了吸烟、饮食和运动等变量，但依然存在因果倒置的可能——也许本身更健康、更有生活节制的人群原本就更容易被咖啡所吸引。
---
### [16:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1011s) 咖啡对心理健康与焦虑的潜在影响
关于咖啡与精神健康、抑郁症及焦虑症之间的微妙联系，Steven 提出了自己的顾虑，直觉上认为含有高浓度兴奋剂成分的咖啡因很有可能会加剧人们的焦虑水平。Hoffmann 强调自己并非专业医生，但从生活实验的角度建议：任何患有临床焦虑或处于高焦虑状态的人群，最值得首先尝试的干预手段之一就是彻底戒断咖啡因，观察情绪和生理紧张感是否能得到直接缓解。
从现存针对精神健康的学术研究来看，实验结果呈现出相当大的非均一性和矛盾性。某些研究认为适量摄入有助于改善情绪或缓解抑郁倾向，而另一些研究则观察到了焦虑症状的激化。这种结果的不一致很大程度上是因为“焦虑”是一个涵盖极其宽泛的统称，它在不同个体身上映射出的心理体验、神经机制和生理诱因千差万别，使得纯粹以咖啡因为变量的研究难以得出非黑即白的普适结论。
### [17:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1045s) 咖啡与心理健康、癌症争议及对咖啡因认知的演变
关于咖啡因与抑郁症及焦虑症的关联，詹姆斯·霍夫曼（James Hoffmann）直言，虽然有些研究发现了咖啡因与抑郁症之间的相关性，并且确实有人觉得喝咖啡能提振情绪，但他绝不建议任何人盲目依赖咖啡因来改善心理健康。如果一个人正经历焦虑或情绪低落等心理挑战，最直接有效的方法就是停喝一个月来观察反应；刚戒断的头几天会很难熬，但随后就能清楚看到自己的身心状态是否因此好转。
谈到咖啡与癌症之间的长期争议，霍夫曼指出目前的元分析（Meta-analysis）结果多数显示，适量饮用咖啡其实与大多数癌症发病率的降低存在相关性。这类流行病学研究极为复杂，变量极多，但他目前没有看到任何能证明咖啡会实质致癌的有力证据，其健康影响根本无法与香烟相提并论。
主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）回忆起自己两年前曾在网上发表过一个观点：“一二十年后，人们看咖啡摄入的心态，可能会像今天看吸烟一样。”霍夫曼对此表示部分认同，但强调核心问题在于“咖啡因”本身而非咖啡豆：
> “我想我们对咖啡因的摄入正在变得更加审慎。最终大家反思的根源会是咖啡因，而不是整杯咖啡……咖啡本身含有足够的健康益处，值得我们长期保留；但吸烟没有任何健康益处。我们对待咖啡因的态度和关系确实会发生改变。”
巴特利特坦言自己作为外行，往往把咖啡和咖啡因混为一谈，但真正让人警惕的是大众对咖啡因的普遍成瘾——每天必须灌三四杯才能维持正常运转、准时上班和清醒思考。如同各种健康思潮的钟摆效应，市场在经历过度依赖后正在走向另一极：无咖啡因（Decaf）运动、防手抖且无断崖式疲惫（crash-free）的温和提神饮品，以及抹茶（matcha）等替代品正在迅速崛起。
### [20:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1210s) 被行业边缘化的低因咖啡（Decaf）与阿尔茨海默病的研究发现
聊到低因咖啡的现状，霍夫曼难掩业内的无奈与遗憾。他指出，低因咖啡爱好者实际上是“最纯粹的咖啡消费者”，因为他们完全不图咖啡因的兴奋刺激，仅仅是为了追求纯粹的咖啡风味。然而，整个咖啡产业链长期以来都在亏待这群人：许多烘焙商和咖啡馆老板嫌麻烦或无利可图，往往不愿意选用优质的生豆做脱因处理，也不愿在设备和萃取上投入资源。霍夫曼一直倡导“从农场到杯中”做好每一步的高品质低因咖啡，但优质低因咖啡目前在市面上依然极难买到。
随后，巴特利特将话题引向阿尔茨海默病（Alzheimer's disease）。针对这一近年来备受关注且机制尚未完全解明的退行性疾病，霍夫曼笑称自己又要像“坏掉的唱片”一样重复那个规律：大量研究显示，每天饮用大约三杯咖啡，与认知能力下降减缓以及阿尔茨海默病发病率降低存在显著关联。但他再次严谨地提醒，这仅仅是观察性研究中的统计学相关性，绝不能直接等同于“喝咖啡就能预防老年痴呆”，研究中喝咖啡人群的生活习惯和背景差异往往被大众媒体过度简化。
- **低因咖啡的行业困境**：烘焙商重视程度低、咖啡馆投入少，消费者很难买到真正高水准的优质风味脱因豆。
- **阿尔茨海默病相关性**：日均约 3 杯咖啡与认知衰退风险降低存在正相关，但属于统计相关而非绝对因果。
### [21:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1308s) 脑血流争议与腺苷阻断机制：为什么咖啡因不是在“给能量”
巴特利特提到了神经科学家丹尼尔·阿曼博士（Dr. Daniel Amen）的观点。阿曼博士分析过数十万张脑部扫描图，是少数公开对咖啡持谨慎态度的专家之一，理由是咖啡因会减少大脑血流量。霍夫曼坦言自己从未扫描过几十万个大脑，但他读过的大多数认知测试研究都显示摄入咖啡因后受试者的思维表现有所提升；他原本推测咖啡因是血管扩张剂（vasodilator），对“减少脑血流”的说法感到意外。
巴特利特进一步提到，正是阿曼博士纠正了他长期以来的认知误区——**咖啡从来没有给人体提供真正的物理能量**。霍夫曼随即深入剖析了咖啡因在体内的分子拦截机制：
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 咖啡因阻断腺苷受体与疲劳崩溃机制
accDescr: 展示体内腺苷积累、咖啡因抢占受体阻断疲惫感，以及代谢后引发断崖式崩溃的过程。
subgraph NormalState ["人体自然调节"]
A["身体产生腺苷 (Adenosine)"] --> B["与神经受体结合"]
B --> C["平复心率、产生疲惫与睡意"]
end
subgraph CaffeineBlock ["摄入咖啡因"]
D["咖啡因进入血液循环"] --> E["抢先占据腺苷受体"]
E -. 阻断结合.-> B
A --> F["血液中游离腺苷不断累积"]
end
subgraph CrashState ["药效代谢之后（断崖式疲惫）"]
G["肝脏代谢清除咖啡因"] --> H["受体重新完全暴露"]
F --> I["海量积累的腺苷瞬间蜂拥结合"]
H --> I
I --> J["能量崩塌 (Crash)：突发性极度疲倦"]
end
```
霍夫曼解释，人体在运转过程中会产生腺苷（adenosine），它与受体结合后负责平复心率、让人产生困意。咖啡因的分子结构与腺苷相似，它直接抢占了受体位置，阻止身体接收疲劳信号。然而，人体并未停止制造腺苷，大量腺苷在血液中持续堆积。一旦咖啡因被代谢清除，暴露出来的受体就会被蜂拥而至的游离腺苷瞬间占满，导致人突然陷入极度疲倦的“断崖式崩溃”（crash）。
### [23:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1409s) 剂量把控、L-茶氨酸协同效应与咖啡因过量风险
针对市场上许多主打“防崩溃、无心悸”的新型提神饮品，霍夫曼指出，它们往往添加了 L-茶氨酸（L-theanine），这种成分与咖啡因具有良好的协同效应，能在维持专注的同时让人感到平静，且现有科学证据较为充分。更关键的是，这类产品对单次咖啡因剂量的控制更加精确。
霍夫曼随后梳理了常见饮品中的咖啡因含量阶梯与过量风险：
| 饮品 / 产品类型 | 典型单份咖啡因含量 | 饮用与代谢特征 |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **可口可乐 (Coca-Cola)** | 约 50 - 60 mg | 含量较低，温和提神 |
| **单份意式浓缩 / 小型滴滤咖啡** | 约 100 mg | 适度且普遍耐受良好的单次标准剂量 |
| **低品质豆 / 深度萃取大杯滴滤咖啡** | 约 200 - 250 mg | 罗布斯塔豆或劣质豆咖啡因含量天然偏高 |
| **健身前氮泵 (Pre-workout)** | 约 300 mg 及以上 | 高浓度人工添加，极易引发后续崩溃与心悸 |
摄入过高剂量的咖啡因不仅意味着更猛烈的能量崩塌，还会显著延长体内清除半衰期，进而严重破坏夜间睡眠。
关于咖啡因中毒的致死风险，霍夫曼澄清，单纯靠喝咖啡达到致死量极为困难。通常需要短时间内连续灌下 50 到 60 杯极浓的咖啡，身体才可能因承受不住而出现急性咖啡因中毒；现实中的死亡案例绝大多数源于高纯度咖啡因药丸或浓缩粉末。如果真的发生咖啡因中毒死亡，其过程会伴随极其痛苦的心血管或严重神经系统紊乱。
### [25:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1550s) 咖啡果实与咖啡因的自然防御机制
很多人从未把咖啡当成一种水果来看待。事实上，咖啡生长在约两米高的树上，结出成熟时色泽鲜红、形似樱桃的果实，业内通常称之为“咖啡樱桃”（Coffee Cherries）。每颗果实大概有葡萄大小，但剖开后果肉极少，里面主要包裹着两颗宛如花生般面对面紧贴的种子（即咖啡豆）。如果直接食用新鲜的咖啡樱桃，其实不会带来太多饱腹感——大部分体积都被硬籽和表皮占据，中间仅有一层薄薄的果肉。不过，这层果肉的风味非常惊艳，口感类似于带有一丝微酸的西瓜，清甜爽口，如果有机会十分值得一尝。
咖啡因在自然界的演化中，首要功能其实是作为植物的“天然杀虫剂”。咖啡树通过合成咖啡因来抵御侵害：当昆虫试图啃食果实或树叶时，高剂量的咖啡因会给它们当头一棒，令其知难而退，从而保护了果实。除咖啡树外，其他植物也会分泌咖啡因，科学家甚至发现花蜜中的微量咖啡因能增强蜜蜂的记忆力，进而促进授粉效率。但在咖啡树身上，咖啡因的核心使命就是驱虫。这也解释了一个农业现象：种植海拔越高的咖啡树，由于高处虫害较少，植株自身合成的咖啡因含量往往也相对较低。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 咖啡因的自然功能与海拔关系
accDescr: 展示咖啡因在自然界中的防虫机制以及海拔高度对其含量的影响
subgraph Defense ["防御机制"]
A["咖啡树合成咖啡因"] --> B["昆虫试图啃咬果实"]
B --> C["摄入高浓度咖啡因受到驱赶"]
C --> D["咖啡果实完好存活"]
end
subgraph Ecology ["生态与海拔规律"]
E["高海拔种植环境"] --> F["气温低、害虫显著减少"]
F --> G["植物自卫需求降低"]
G --> H["咖啡豆咖啡因含量较低"]
end
```
---
### [27:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1624s) 从不喝咖啡到斩获世界咖啡师大赛冠军
主持人提及詹姆斯·霍夫曼（James Hoffmann）大约在 25 岁涉足竞技咖啡比赛，并在 27 岁时登顶世界咖啡师大赛（World Barista Championship, WBC）冠军。霍夫曼坦言自己当时完全是“全力以赴、陷了进去”。他在 23 岁之前甚至根本不喝咖啡，也谈不上喜欢。转变的契机源于他偶然读到的一本名为《魔鬼之杯》（*The Devil's Cup*）的旅行文学作品。作者在书中沿着咖啡传播的历史轨迹，从埃塞俄比亚、也门，途经土耳其、地中海，一直追踪到全球各个角落。
这本书深深震撼了霍夫曼：咖啡几乎融入了世界上每一种文化，却呈现出截然不同的面貌——意大利浓缩咖啡文化（Espresso Culture）、斯堪的纳维亚浅烘手冲文化、澳大利亚精品咖啡文化，与美国的咖啡风貌各具特色。意识到这杯饮品背后的广度后，他开始尝试品饮咖啡，并迅速深陷其中无法自拔。从对咖啡一无所知到系统性钻研，短短几年间，他便在 2007 年的世界咖啡师大赛上一举夺冠。
---
### [28:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1696s) 破除咖啡认知误区：咖啡在三个生命阶段被“塑造”
当被问及普通消费者（"muggle"）想要喝到更美味、更健康的咖啡应该了解哪些误区时，霍夫曼指出，如今的偏见已经比以往少得多。过去人们普遍认为咖啡必须是一场“苦涩且痛苦的折磨”，是每天早晨为了换取咖啡因提神而必须忍受的小小考验。然而在当代，咖啡展现出了惊人的风味多样性。二三十年前，市面上的咖啡往往是“焦褐、凶悍且令人沮丧的”（"brown and mean and miserable"），毫无风味层次可言；而如今，咖啡可以拥有果香、花香、泥土香、醇厚巧克力香等丰富表现，无论个人偏好什么口味，总有一款未曾体验过的风味更合心意。
更关键的认知在于：咖啡在本质上被“创造”了三次。任何一个阶段的失误，都会让最终的风味付诸东流：
- **第一次是在庄园种植与处理端**：如同酿造优质葡萄酒，咖农精细呵护果实、手工采摘并严格发酵处理种子，在生豆阶段奠定风味上限；
- **第二次是在烘焙端**：烘焙师将带有青草生味的绿色生豆，彻底蜕变为世界上香气最浓郁的物质之一；
- **第三次是在萃取冲煮端**：消费者或咖啡师通过研磨、水温与时间萃取出杯。
很多人潜意识里觉得冲煮咖啡不需要太多技巧，但事实上冲煮极易出错，很多人制作出难喝的咖啡却根本不知问题出在哪里。霍夫曼强调，普通爱好者不需要精通所有底层细节，关键是抓住萃取中最重要的几个核心变量，就能解决绝大部分问题。如今消费者面临的最大困境并非无知，而是面对琳琅满目的货架与悬殊的价格时，难以辨别究竟哪些是真正的品质差异，哪些只是商业营销包装。
---
### [31:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1870s) 盲测五款外带咖啡：烘焙度、嗅觉适应与品牌心理学
主持人准备了五杯从不同本地门店随机购买的外带黑咖啡进行双盲品鉴，两人事先均不知道各杯对应的品牌与价格。在拿起杯子闻香的第一时间，霍夫曼就通过香气迅速判断出这几款咖啡的烘焙深度。他解释道，咖啡豆在烘焙机里停留的时间越长，颜色越深。过去大众往往把油亮焦黑的深烘豆与“高级”划等号；而如今精品咖啡界的天平已经彻底倒向浅烘焙，因为浅度烘焙能够更大程度保留咖啡生豆原产地的地域风土特质。现场这五杯咖啡闻起来普遍带有较重的烘烤甚至焦苦气息，没有任何花果调性，烘焙程度明显偏深，可以预期入口会有强烈的苦味。
两人随即聊起嗅觉系统的奇妙特性。主持人好奇香水店放置咖啡豆供顾客“清理鼻腔嗅觉”是否有科学依据。霍夫曼证实了这一点：人类的嗅觉感知极其依赖“变化”，狗频繁快速抽动鼻子也是为了捕捉气味变化。如果持续闻同一种气味，嗅觉神经很快会产生“抑制”（Suppression）与疲劳习惯化——这也是为什么很多人同一款香水用了二十年，自己完全闻不到而越喷越多，或者跑步出汗后自己闻不到体味却需要问旁人“我身上臭吗”。
霍夫曼分享了一个拆解可口可乐香气的小实验：可口可乐的复杂风味实际上由青柠、橙花油、肉桂、橙皮、肉豆蔻等多种香料精油复配而成。如果你先深吸一口浓郁的肉桂粉，再去闻可乐，可乐闻起来就会变得非常诡异，因为你的大脑刚刚把肉桂嗅觉“抑制”并从可乐的气味图谱中彻底“删除”了，这种失衡揭示了感官处理的机制。
主持人指出，正如当年著名的“可口可乐与百事可乐盲测挑战”所揭示的现象——在双盲纯饮时人们往往更偏爱百事，但一旦套上可口可乐的红色包装罐，人们的大脑就会立刻受到品牌暗示而改口——在咖啡领域同样如此，剥离掉品牌溢价、纸杯包装与营销标签后，唯有杯中风味能够经受味蕾的客观检验。盲测正式开始，霍夫曼尝了第一杯咖啡：口感是非常标准的商业咖啡风味，风味平淡无奇，苦味偏重，且绝大部分苦感源自深重烘焙本身的焦糖化与碳化作用。
### [34:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2056s) 盲测第一杯与第二杯：麦当劳与独立精品咖啡馆
在盲测环节的开端，史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）递上了第一杯咖啡。詹姆斯·霍夫曼（James Hoffmann）轻啜一口后分析道，咖啡风味欠佳往往有两个成因：要么是制作萃取出了差错，要么是本身的生豆原料质量平平。他直言不讳地推断，这绝非一杯昂贵的咖啡。史蒂文随即附和，形容这喝起来像“加油站咖啡”或者“自动售货机倒出来的产物”，若是价格昂贵简直算得上一场诈骗。在给出的评分中，詹姆斯本着对咖啡上限的严苛标准打了 2 分（随后又折中表示如果考虑到世上还有更可怕的劣质咖啡，勉强能给 4 分），史蒂文则给出了中规中矩的 5 分。
紧接着品尝第二杯时，两人的感受发生了明显逆转。詹姆斯立刻捕捉到了清晰的酸质，史蒂文也直观地体会到一种“带有活力的微酸感（zingy）”。詹姆斯借此向观众科普了一个咖啡界的经典矛盾：在专业领域，高酸度通常与高品质紧密挂钩，但对很多普通消费者来说却往往难以接受。咖啡种植的海拔越高，浆果生长周期越漫长，虽然能积累更丰富的糖分，但同时也会带来鲜明的果酸。詹姆斯判断第二杯选用了更好的生豆原料，烘焙更浅、萃取更得当，带有果香与鲜明个性；史蒂文也赞同这杯咖啡“更有灵魂”，回甘颇具层次。最终两人双双给出 6 分（詹姆斯评在 6 到 7 分之间）。
随后史蒂文揭晓了前两杯的真实身份：第一杯售价仅 1.30 英镑，来自麦当劳（McDonald's）；第二杯售价约 3.00 英镑，出自一家独立精品咖啡馆（Independent Coffee Shop）。麦当劳平淡偏水感的表现完全在詹姆斯的预料之中，而价格翻倍的独立咖啡馆也以显著的品质优势赢得了认可。
- 第一杯（麦当劳）：售价 £1.30；詹姆斯评分 2-4/10，史蒂文评分 5/10；口感水质感偏重、原料廉价，似加油站或售货机产物。
- 第二杯（独立咖啡馆）：售价约 £3.00；詹姆斯评分 6-7/10，史蒂文评分 6/10；浅烘焙、酸质明亮、带果香与风味辨识度。
- 高海拔咖啡特性：生长速度更慢，最终甜感更高，同时天然伴随着更鲜明的酸度。
---
### [37:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2230s) 盲测连锁巨头：Costa、Pret 与星巴克的对决
进入第三杯的评测，风味走向再度发生逆转。詹姆斯认为它更接近第一杯的路线：属于深烘焙，体质感（body）更饱满浑厚，但夹杂着强烈的“泥土感（earthiness）”。史蒂文也指出这一杯比麦当劳更加浓郁充实，不再那么寡淡如水。不过，詹姆斯个人对泥土风味并不偏好，认为这依然属于比较平庸的商业级咖啡豆，遂给出了 3 分（最高不超过 4 分）。这杯随即被揭晓为英国本土连锁巨头 Costa Coffee。
轮到第四杯时，詹姆斯熟练地摇晃杯子观察油脂与香气，并打趣道自己平时习惯发出大幅度的啜吸声（slurp）进行杯测充气，但对着录音麦克风做这种举动未免过于折磨观众的耳朵。尝过之后，他判定这是五杯中烘焙程度最深的一款，焦苦感更为突出，醇厚度高，但生豆品质并没有第一杯那么糟糕，詹姆斯凭直觉推测“这很像星巴克的经典路子”。而紧随其后的第五杯则带来了奇怪的体验，詹姆斯尝出了些许微妙的“蔬菜味（vegetably）”，整体表现甚至不如第四杯，只给出了 4 分。
当史蒂文揭晓底牌时，戏剧性的一幕出现了：詹姆斯认为最像星巴克的第四杯（给了 5 分）其实是 Pret A Manger；而第五杯略带异味的深烘咖啡才是真正的星巴克（Starbucks）。
- 第三杯（Costa）：体感偏厚重但伴随较重的泥土杂味，詹姆斯评分 3/10。
- 第四杯（Pret A Manger）：全场烘焙最深的一款，焦苦浓郁但原料尚可，詹姆斯评分 5/10（误猜为星巴克）。
- 第五杯（星巴克）：烘焙偏深但带有不协调的蔬菜杂味，詹姆斯评分 4/10。
---
### [39:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2366s) 连锁体系的同质化与独立咖啡店的生存困境
综合对比三大商业连锁街头品牌，詹姆斯的评分顺位依次为 Pret A Manger（第一）、Costa（第二）、星巴克（第三）。然而他强调，这三家连锁店之间的实际风味差距微乎其微：“它们在本质上并没有拉开多大差距，品牌的门面体验或许千差万别，但杯中咖啡的核心体验高度同质化。”相比之下，只有独立咖啡店展现出了独树一帜的饱满个性和鲜活风味，麦当劳则在另一端显得廉价而平庸。
随着史蒂文公布各家价格——独立咖啡馆 £3.00、Costa £3.20、Pret £3.20、星巴克 £3.60——话题转向了咖啡行业的商业逻辑。星巴克定价全场最贵、独立精品店反而更便宜的反常现象让詹姆斯感慨万千。他回顾自己多年来为初创独立咖啡馆提供咨询的经历，许多店主最初都有严重的心理包袱，认为自己的定价绝不能超过星巴克：
> “你究竟在想什么？你以为你拥有和他们一样的供应链吗？连锁巨头利润极其丰厚，你又不可能每周去采购两千万个纸杯！”
詹姆斯解释道，长期以来整个市场都被连锁品牌的定价牢牢锚定，即便独立店使用的咖啡豆品质卓越得多，小店主们也害怕定高价吓跑顾客。但他坚定地为独立咖啡馆摇旗呐喊：选择连锁品牌买到的是极致的“安全感与可预测性”——就像把你突然空投到陌生的莫斯科街头，为了不出错你大概率会直奔熟悉的连锁店，因为你知道在哪里排队、点什么食物、怎么取餐；然而，走进一家独立小店虽然带着探索的未知风险，收获高品质美妙咖啡的回报却往往远胜连锁体系。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 咖啡消费选择路径对比
accDescr: 对比商业连锁品牌与独立精品咖啡馆在消费心理、供应链与风味回报上的差异。
subgraph Chains["商业连锁巨头（星巴克 / Costa / Pret）"]
C1["规模化供应链 / 超高毛利"] --> C2["高度标准化的服务流程"]
C2 --> C3["极高的确定性与安全感"]
C3 --> C4["风味高度同质化 / 定价高昂 (£3.20 - £3.60)"]
end
subgraph Independent["独立精品咖啡馆"]
I1["高品质生豆 / 精细化浅中烘焙"] --> I2["展现产区果香与明亮酸质"]
I2 --> I3["需要消费者承担未知探索风险"]
I3 --> I4["风味上限极高 / 性价比优异 (£3.00)"]
end
```
---
### [41:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2508s) 节目赞助：LinkedIn Jobs 与 Shopify
在深入讨论咖啡商业之后，史蒂文插播了两则节目赞助商信息：
* **LinkedIn Jobs**：史蒂文透露，《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）现有的核心团队中约有 90% 是通过 LinkedIn 招聘组建的。他强调自己招聘时从来不在乎死板的简历，而是寻找激情、专业能力、奉献精神以及最难能可贵的善良品质。对于没有专门人力资源部门的小微企业，LinkedIn Jobs 提供了极为顺畅、高效的流程，近期上线的 AI 辅助撰写职位描述功能更大幅提升了效率。节目观众可通过专属链接 `linkedin.com/doac` 免费发布职位。
* **Shopify**：作为全球数百万企业信赖的商业基础设施，Shopify 为创业者提供了一站式开店与运营解决方案。史蒂文的团队在开展各类衍生产品发售时（例如最新推出的对话卡牌 Conversation Cards）全程依托 Shopify 支撑。史蒂文将其称作自己团队进行电商业务的首选平台，并向听众推荐了试用体验机会。
### [43:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2621s) 商业帝国与 YouTube 的意外诞生
当 Steven 问及 James Hoffmann 创办过的多达 11 或 12 家公司时，James 梳理了自己的创业脉络。他回忆道，第一家公司成立于 2007/2008 年左右，也就是他在 2007 年赢得世界百瑞斯塔（咖啡师）大赛（World Barista Championship）冠军之后创办的咖啡烘焙公司（Square Mile Coffee Roasters）。虽然如今有非常出色的常务董事（MD）负责日常运营，James 自己主要负责“尽量不添乱、在能出力的地方提供帮助”，但它至今仍是他的核心业务之一。
在随后的漫长岁月里，他涉足了咖啡行业的方方面面：建立进出口代理与分销公司、开设咖啡馆、创办教育培训业务、经营大型商用浓缩咖啡机等设备业务，甚至还做过咖啡行业的人才招聘机构（后来成功出售），并创办过咖啡杂志。而进军 YouTube，则是他完全没有预料到的一步。这起初并非一项商业规划，但如今却演变成了一个耗费他全部心力、自成一体的庞大事业。
- **创办企业类型**：精品咖啡烘焙厂、设备进口与分销、实体咖啡店、咖啡培训学院、商用浓缩咖啡机代理、行业招聘中介（已出售）、咖啡杂志等。
- **涉足 YouTube 的初衷**：过去二十年里，从业者很难让大众对深奥的咖啡知识产生共鸣；早年写博客是为了“分享与学习”，后来文字式微，他转向视频，意外发现大众对咖啡的兴趣远比行业预期的更宽广、更深刻。
---
### [45:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2736s) 家庭制作意式浓缩的残酷真相：别把它当成快捷摄取咖啡因的工具
随着越来越多观众涌入 James 的频道，“我该买哪款咖啡机？”成了他余生都无法回避的高频问题。当 Steven 兴致勃勃地表示自己正要搬新家，想花一笔钱弄一台“按个按钮就能迅速出品顶级浓缩咖啡”的家庭设备时，James 毫不客气地泼了一盆冷水。
James 直言，制作真正优质的意式浓缩咖啡（Espresso）是一项极其繁琐、混乱且技术要求苛刻的“个人爱好”（hobby）。如果你只是想要一杯能快速提神的咖啡，千万不要买高端家用浓缩机。因为在花费几千甚至上万英镑将顶级机器搬回家后，不出一个星期，绝大多数人就会感到无比厌烦。相比之下，独立精品咖啡馆收取 2.50 到 3 英镑一杯浓缩，简直物超所值，因为“你是在付钱请他们承担制作浓缩那折磨人的痛苦过程”。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 家庭咖啡方案决策流程
accDescr: 展示根据用户期望投入的时间和资金选择手冲方案还是意式浓缩方案的决策路径。
subgraph UserNeeds["用户需求与期望"]
A["追求清晨快速出品 / 不想折腾"]
B["享受探索与精细操作 / 愿意当成爱好"]
end
subgraph SolutionPath["解决方案对比"]
A --> C["全自动机器或手冲滤杯"]
B --> D["高端半自动家用浓缩机"]
C --> E["投资优质磨豆机（£150-£200）+ 简单滤杯"]
D --> F["设备成本高达 £2,000-£5,000+ 且清洁维护繁琐"]
end
```
- **全自动咖啡机的技术瓶颈**：目前市场上即使是高度自动化的“一键式”咖啡机，受限于诸多枯燥的机械工程难题，其出品风味仍远远比不上人工稍微介入制作的手工咖啡。
- **高昂的预算上限**：高端家用浓缩咖啡机的设备花费就像发烧级家庭音响一样，几千甚至 10,000 至 15,000 英镑的设备都有人买单，但对于普通用户而言完全是过度消费。
---
### [48:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2916s) 磨豆机才是咖啡风味的灵魂核心
当 Steven 将预算收紧到 100 至 200 英镑并询问具体机器时，James 给出了一个所有咖啡初学者都需要认清的事实：**磨豆机（Grinder）的权重远高于咖啡机本身**。James 犀利地比喻：“如果你给我一个亚马逊上 20 英镑的普通滴滤机，但配上一台优秀的磨豆机，我能做出相当不错的咖啡；但如果你给我一台 20 英镑的劣质磨豆机和一台 5000 英镑的咖啡机，我做出来的咖啡绝对糟糕透顶。”
很多家庭使用的廉价“砍豆机”（高速旋转双叶刀片机）只是把咖啡豆毫无章法地砸碎，产生的大块像石头、细粉像微尘。极细粉容易过度萃取出苦涩味，而大块颗粒萃取不足导致尖酸，最终导致咖啡又苦又酸。真正合格的磨豆机使用精密的旋转磨盘（Burrs），将咖啡豆均匀切削成均一粒径。目前一台寿命极长、能稳定产出咖啡馆级品质的家用磨盘磨豆机，价格门槛大约在 100 到 200 英镑（约 150 英镑起步）。配上一个仅需几英镑的简单手冲滤杯（Pour-over cone），就能在预算内轻松喝到极品黑咖啡。
| 设备类型 | 研磨机制 | 研磨均匀度 | 出品风味表现 | 典型预算门槛 |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **旋刃砍豆机** | 类似搅拌机的旋转刀片高速击碎 | 极度不均（微尘与大颗粒混杂） | 杂味明显、又苦又酸 | £10 - £20 |
| **盘式磨豆机 (Burr Grinder)** | 精密切削磨盘对压研磨 | 粒径高度一致 | 层次分明、萃取均匀清甜 | £100 - £200 |
---
### [50:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3033s) 建立信任的真正目的：为了咖啡的严峻未来发声
James 剖析了自己 YouTube 内容策略的深层逻辑。他制作看似迎合大众的“评测哪款咖啡机最好”或“法压壶（French Press）最佳冲煮手法”，并不是为了单纯获取流量，而是为了与受众建立信任桥梁。通过高质量的实用建议让普通人更享受咖啡，进而认识到咖啡的价值，最终愿意为它投入稍微多一点的资金。
James 强调，这种长期信任至关重要，因为咖啡产业正面临着生死存亡的严峻挑战——气候变化。随着全球气温上升，咖啡树所需的凉爽生长环境正迅速缩减。为了让公众在未来愿意关注并支持咖啡原产地和环保议题，他必须先通过客观真实的评测与技巧分享，成为观众心中可靠的声音。
### [51:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3115s) 气候变暖对精品咖啡的威胁与咖啡产业链的不公
随着全球气候变暖，高品质咖啡正面临着前所未有的生存危机。能够产出精品咖啡的优质咖啡树需要凉爽的温度，目前几乎完全依赖在海拔 1500 米至 2000 米的高山上种植。然而高山的物理特性决定了“越往高处走，土地面积就越小”，这意味着全球范围内适宜种植高品质精品咖啡的土地正在急剧缩减。未来的趋势是，廉价的工业级咖啡由于对环境要求不高仍会长久存在，但高品质的精品咖啡将越来越稀缺，其未来充满艰难挑战，而全球有数百万种植者的生计全系于此。
当前的咖啡生产贸易体系存在极大的缺陷，对一线咖农而言极度不公。詹姆斯·霍夫曼指出，如果消费者未来还想喝到优质咖啡，就必须做好支付更高价格的心理准备。对于真正热爱咖啡的人来说，一袋咖啡多花 1 英镑或 2 英镑完全在可承受范围之内。霍夫曼之所以全力普及咖啡知识，除了想给人们带来味蕾上的快乐，更深层的动力是希望在咖啡种植业面临危机之际，培养并留住一群愿意为好品质提供支持的咖啡消费者。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 气候变暖对精品咖啡种植的连锁影响
accDescr: 展示全球升温导致适种海拔升高、山地可用面积缩减，进而导致精品咖啡短缺与产业链压力的逻辑链条。
subgraph Climate["气候变化"]
A["全球气候持续变暖"]
B["咖啡适种海拔被迫向更高处迁移<br/>（原种植海拔为 1500m - 2000m）"]
A --> B
end
subgraph Mountain["高山地貌特征"]
C["山地可用土地面积随海拔升高急剧缩减"]
B --> C
end
subgraph Impact["深远影响"]
D["精品咖啡适种面积锐减<br/>廉价咖啡尚存，优质咖啡严重受挫"]
E["数百万小农生计面临威胁<br/>生产分配体系不公加剧"]
F["消费端价格需要上涨<br/>（每袋多付 £1-£2 支持种植者）"]
C --> D
D --> E
E --> F
end
```
### [53:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3189s) 胶囊咖啡机：咖啡界的“微波炉便当”
针对近年来极为普及的胶囊咖啡机（只需早上按下一个按钮就能出咖啡的便捷设备），霍夫曼给出了一个精准的比喻：胶囊咖啡就像“微波炉便当（microwave meals）”。微波炉便当确实提供了极高的便利性，品质也能保持在一定的水准，但它同时伴随着大量的包装浪费，而且“只要你稍微花一点点心思，就能用更低的成本做出好得多的东西”。霍夫曼自己并不怎么使用胶囊机，他尤其遗憾很多小胶囊（如 Nespresso 类型的胶囊）缺乏足够的回收条件，造成了环境负担。
更重要的是，从性价比的角度来看，胶囊咖啡极其昂贵。每个胶囊通常只有 5 克咖啡粉，如果将其换算成每公斤的单价，消费者花在胶囊上的钱足以买到世界上品质最顶级的咖啡豆。人们为胶囊支付的溢价完全是在为“便利”买单。追求极致的便利必然需要牺牲某些东西，通常牺牲的就是品质与性价比。霍夫曼表示，他完全理解现代人不想费心做意式浓缩，但又想在清晨迅速喝到类似浓缩咖啡的心态，胶囊机确实在这块市场取得了巨大的商业成功，但它在本质上依然无法摆脱“微波炉便当”的定位。
### [54:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3291s) 咖啡的历史风云：伦敦的“便士大学”与清醒革命
咖啡在人类历史上从未真正缺席，虽然它曾多次因为被统治者视为容易滋生反叛的“煽动性饮料”而险遭禁止。英国国王查理二世（霍夫曼口误提到了詹姆斯王）曾短暂下令查封咖啡馆，但禁令往往因民众的激烈不满而迅速瓦解；罗马教皇也曾被请求取缔咖啡，然而教皇品尝后反倒认为它非常美味，拒绝颁布禁令。伦敦曾在 17 世纪末至 18 世纪初成为全球最狂热的咖啡之都。在咖啡传入之前，英国人为了饮水安全，普遍全天饮用 2 到 3 升低度啤酒（weak beer），因此整座城市的大多数人都处于昏昏欲睡、微醺的状态。
1652 年，伦敦第一家咖啡馆在银行地铁站（Bank station）附近开业（墙上至今保留着纪念蓝牌）。咖啡这种安全、高热量且具兴奋效果的饮品彻底逆转了啤酒带来的昏沉，引发了一场社会级的生产力飞跃：
- **咖啡馆数量激增**：当时有传闻称伦敦金融城（Square Mile）内拥有 2000 家咖啡馆，虽然数字有所夸张，但实际也有数百家之多。
- **专业化与商业孵化**：各家咖啡馆迅速走向垂直细分领域，例如世界知名的劳合社（Lloyd's of London）最初就是在一家名为 Lloyd's 的咖啡馆里为航运保险提供交易场所，其办公桌由咖啡桌演变而来，直到今天内部的信差仍被称为“服务生（waiters）”。
- **便士大学（Penny Universities）**：顾客只需花费 1 便士入场费，就能在咖啡馆里倾听学者、商人和政客的高谈阔论，其获得的知识启发甚至堪比大学教育。
- **茶的取而代之**：这种全城狂热持续了约一个世纪，直到英国的殖民与贸易重心彻底转向茶叶，咖啡馆才逐渐衰落。
史蒂芬·巴特利特顺势提到，自己大半辈子都误以为只有咖啡才有咖啡因，而茶没有。霍夫曼澄清道，茶叶确实含有咖啡因，虽然单杯含量远低于咖啡，但如果一天喝上 10 到 12 杯茶，摄入的咖啡因总量依然相当可观，且冲泡时间的长短也会直接影响溶出量。
### [58:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3494s) 霍夫曼的最爱：黑滤泡咖啡的探索之旅与牛奶的遮苦机制
从业 20 多年的霍夫曼常被问到最喜欢喝什么咖啡，他的首选始终是黑滤泡咖啡（Filter Coffee，包括手冲咖啡与滴滤机咖啡），而非意式浓缩咖啡。滤泡咖啡的浓度接近美式咖啡，较为清淡，其最大的魅力在于“旅程感”：
- **温度与风味的演变**：一杯顶级的精品咖啡在冷却的过程中，其原本紧锁的香气与风味层级会逐渐舒展、绽放，呈现出极其复杂且迷人的风味变化。
- **专属的时间体验**：霍夫曼非常享受能够坐下来静心品味 10 到 15 分钟的过程，将喝咖啡变成一段放松享受与探索风味的美好时光。
- **青睐的产区**：如果在全球产区中只能选择一个余生饮用的产地，霍夫曼会选择**哥伦比亚（Colombia）**，因为该国咖啡的风味谱系极其广阔且品质卓越。从地理分布来看，在南北回归线（Tropic of Cancer and Tropic of Capricorn）之间的热带“咖啡带（Coffee Belt）”内，只要海拔合适，几乎所有国家都能种植咖啡，且每个产区都同时存在着顶级豆与低质工业豆。
谈及是否会在咖啡里加糖或牛奶，霍夫曼表示自己一律只喝纯黑咖啡，但他完全理解普通大众为何热衷于加奶加糖。市面上的绝大部分廉价咖啡都存在尖锐的苦涩味，而**牛奶具有一种天然的生理特性——它是一种天然的“苦味阻断剂（bitter blocker）”**，能够抑制舌尖对苦味的感知，有效柔化咖啡粗糙的焦苦感。最后霍夫曼补充提醒，医学界关于“饮用咖啡对健康有益”的各项长期科学研究，其得出积极结论的前提条件基本都是建立在饮用“纯黑咖啡”的基础之上。
### [01:00:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3628s) 咖啡是生鲜食品：为什么咖啡豆需要现磨
在咖啡中加入大量的奶油和糖，不仅会迅速抵消原本潜在的健康益处，还会把咖啡本身的丰富风味遮盖殆尽。James Hoffmann 明确表示，他完全理解许多人喜欢加奶加糖的喝法，也绝不反对别人调配自己喜欢的甜度或加入少许牛奶，但他自己始终坚持喝黑咖啡——因为唯有不加任何修饰，才能完整捕捉到那些让咖啡如此引人入胜的细致风味。
谈及他在著作《How to Make The Best Coffee at Home》（如何在家里做出最好的咖啡）中提到的一个颠覆性观点时，主持人坦言自己过去总以为咖啡是长保质期的耐储食品（shelf staple），买来磨碎后随手往橱柜里一塞就能天长地久。James Hoffmann 纠正道，咖啡在本质上其实是一种“生鲜食品”（fresh food），最致命的盲区在于它的衰变过程无法被肉眼察觉：“如果你把一个苹果切成块放在那里两个小时，你能亲眼看到它的表面变色氧化；但当你把咖啡豆粉碎成极细的颗粒时，你立刻触发了一连串不可逆转的化学反应。”大量氧气迅速介入，使油脂逐渐变质走油（rancid），锁在豆内的挥发性香气也会以惊人的速度流失。现磨不仅能带来无与伦比的风味体验，研磨咖啡豆的过程更是“全世界最美妙的气味之一”。
对于研磨后的衰败周期，James Hoffmann 指出，绝大多数人在磨粉一天后就能轻易尝出差别，到第二天就会觉得味道显著变差。购买市售预磨咖啡粉虽然买到了高度的便利，却付出了巨大的风味代价：
- **货架包装的局限**：即便工厂采用了惰性气体填充（gas flush）的充氮包装，一旦消费者撕开封口，咖啡粉便不可阻挡地迅速走向老化衰败。
- **研磨设备的投资价值**：咖啡研磨机确实需要占用厨房台面，需要花费一定的购买成本，也会在早晨摄入咖啡因的路径上多增添一步操作。但从性价比来看，一袋优质咖啡豆和一袋预磨粉的售价往往差不多（尽管预磨粉含有更多加工工序成本），买原豆现磨能榨取出的风味价值却呈几何级数增加。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 咖啡研磨后的风味衰变过程
accDescr: 研磨咖啡豆触发接触面积增大、氧化与香气逸散，导致风味品质迅速下滑
subgraph Phase1["研磨物理破坏"]
A["完整烘焙咖啡豆\n(风味物质紧密锁存)"] --> B["粉碎成微细颗粒\n(表面积呈指数级剧增)"]
end
subgraph Phase2["化学衰变与逸散"]
B --> C["不可逆氧化反应\n(油脂逐渐酸败变质)"]
B --> D["芳香挥发物逃逸\n(核心香气迅速散失)"]
end
subgraph Phase3["感官品质劣化"]
C --> E["24小时内：大部分人可察觉风味差异"]
D --> E
E --> F["48小时后：风味显著劣化、趋于平淡"]
end
```
---
### [01:03:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3802s) 咖啡行业的未来：疫情洗礼、气候危机与“质大于量”的转变
关于咖啡产业的未来走向，James Hoffmann 观察到，全球公众与咖啡之间的情感连结在过去几年间发生了深层改变。新冠疫情是一个决定性的分水岭：在此之前，人们习惯于去外面的精品咖啡馆喝一杯优质咖啡，并将其作为日常生活的一部分；当封控来临、外出受阻时，家用咖啡器具的销售迎来了天文数字般的爆发式增长。James 坦承，在疫情前他甚至曾怀疑过人们对高品质咖啡的执念有多深，猜想一旦价格过高或获取不便大家是否就会放弃，但现实给出了强有力的回答——当咖啡被剥夺时，全世界各地的消费者几乎异口同声地表示“绝不妥协，咖啡必须留下”。这验证了精品咖啡（specialty coffee）多年来的承诺：咖啡可以做得更好喝、更有趣，而消费者在亲身体验后愿意为此买单。
然而，咖啡产业链的供给端正在遭遇严峻考验。气候变化对咖啡产区造成的破坏已经显现，降雨模式的紊乱和极端气候使高品质咖啡的种植变得举步维艰，未来优质精品的市场价格必然会被进一步推高。与此同时，消费端的意识也在向更健康的方向演进：
- **注重咖啡因摄入**：公众对咖啡因代谢及其对睡眠与身心影响的关注度正在稳步提升，这可能会导致人均饮用杯数的适度下降。
- **消费理念转向“少而精”**：相较于为了硬撑而浑浑噩噩地喝下五杯平庸廉价的流水线咖啡，James 更乐见人们每天愿意花好钱去细细品味两杯极度出色的咖啡。让咖啡从无意识的机械消耗，真正回归为每日生活中带来纯粹愉悦（moment of pleasure）与好奇惊艳的闪光时刻。
---
### [01:05:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3949s) 城市探索指南与连锁咖啡品牌的抉择
对于普通大众（muggle）漫步在伦敦街头、面对满街各色咖啡招牌时的选择困难，James Hoffmann 极力推崇独立精品咖啡馆。伦敦如今拥有全球顶尖的独立咖啡生态，而在当今信息透明的网络环境下，只需随手搜索目标城市的“best specialty coffee”，就能轻松锁定二三十家品质极高的好去处。独立咖啡馆的魅力远不止于杯中之物，每一家店都凝结了主理人独特的审美偏好、空间氛围和个人表达。许多在全球巡演的乐队乐手都会不可救药地迷上咖啡，因为顺着精品咖啡馆的足迹去漫步，正是探索陌生城市街区、感受本地脉搏的最佳捷径。更妙的是，优秀咖啡馆的咖啡师往往构成了最懂生活的地下向导网络，只要你开口询问“这附近哪家餐厅最好吃、哪家面包房最正宗”，他们就能给出城中最具水准的秘密清单。
谈话间，主持人抛出了一个刁钻的假设挑战：“如果把你扔在伦敦街头，四周等距离分布着各大商业连锁品牌，并且必须买一杯自己喜欢的咖啡饮料带走，你会走向哪一家？”
James 笑着坦白，这确实是个难题，因为如果允许胡来，他完全可能跑进星巴克（Starbucks）买一杯像装在杯子里的甜点一样的高热量特饮，毕竟“你无法否认一杯满是糖和脂肪的星冰乐（Frappuccino）确实能带来简单的快乐”。但如果必须回归他对黑咖啡的真实偏好，他大概率依然会走进星巴克——原因在于星巴克是少数几家真正提供现煮批次滤泡咖啡（batch filter coffee）的大型连锁品牌，能够提供真正用滴滤方式萃取的咖啡，而不是拿浓缩咖啡兑水制成的美式咖啡（Americano）。
### [01:08:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4109s) 星巴克点单的“内行技巧”与新鲜度哲学
谈及连锁咖啡店的点餐习惯时，Steven Bartlett 问 James Hoffmann，如果他走进一家星巴克，他究竟会怎么点单。James Hoffmann 开玩笑称，如果按照普通人的思路，有时候甚至可以要求咖啡师现场专门冲煮一款指定的咖啡；不过要是展现出自己“彻底古怪（fully weird）”的极客一面，他的做法会大不一样。
走进星巴克后，James Hoffmann 第一件事就是观察吧台上的滴滤咖啡保温桶（tanks）。桶上通常配有倒计时计时器，用来标记这桶咖啡冲煮完成后的存放时长。滴滤咖啡在保温桶里放置的时间越长，风味衰减和恶化就越严重。因此，他会扫视每个桶，挑选倒计时剩余时间最长（即离报废丢弃时间最远、冲煮出来最新鲜）的那一桶，然后点一杯小杯（Tall 杯型）。他坦言，盯着店员的计时器看确实显得有点怪异，但只要你开始留意，就会发现那些倒计时就摆在那里。
对 James Hoffmann 而言，咖啡的新鲜度甚至压倒了他对烘焙程度的偏好。他宁愿喝一杯自己不太热衷的深烘焙咖啡，只要它是新鲜出炉的；也不愿去喝一杯可能已经放置了一到两个小时、风味早已劣化的浅烘焙咖啡。此外，他还透露了一个昔日的“隐藏点单黑客技巧”：在许多星巴克门店，如果顾客开口要求用法压壶（French Press）现冲一杯咖啡，按照规定店员通常必须照做。虽然多年来有些店员会配合，有些店员则会直接拒绝，但这项非菜单服务确实存在。不过就日常而言，他最稳妥的策略依旧是直接要一桶刚煮出来不久的新鲜滴滤咖啡。
---
### [01:09:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4192s) 创业者的执念：牺牲的空闲与被剥夺的“无所事事”
当话题转向日常生活与睡眠时，James Hoffmann 表示自己的睡眠质量相当不错，但这完全是因为他付出了极大的努力去维护。随着步入 40 岁，他越来越意识到“未来的自己（future me）”至关重要，而在 20 多岁时，他根本不在乎长远健康。
Steven Bartlett 指出 James Hoffmann 身上有一股近乎偏执的热情——创办了多家企业，脑子里的点子永远多于一天所拥有的时间，而这种执念必然伴随着代价。对此，James Hoffmann 深有同感：
* **消失的爱好与娱乐**：如果有人突然问他平时有什么娱乐活动，他必须愣住思考很久。他的生活轨迹基本上被“工作、做咖啡相关的事、睡觉以及家庭生活”完全填满，几乎没有任何属于自己的纯粹业余爱好。
* **对“空白时光”的哀悼**：他时刻处于事务缠身的状态，深感生活缺少空隙（lack of space）。虽然他坦白即便真的拥有一整天无所事事的时间，自己大概也不知道该拿来干什么，但他依然会偶尔为生活中无法享有哪怕片刻的“虚度与空白”而感到惋惜与哀伤。
---
### [01:11:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4271s) 无法停下的创造欲与被 Peter Attia 重塑的健康观
Steven Bartlett 提到许多创业者总对自己撒谎，以为再过 5 年或 10 年，把某项业务卖掉后就可以彻底放松下来过悠闲的生活。James Hoffmann 笑着承认自己也这样自欺欺人了整整 15 年。他内心非常清楚，自己真正享受的是“创造事物、打磨产品并将它们做大”的过程本身；即便明天把名下所有公司全卖掉，他后天就会忍不住去开一家新公司。
不过，随着年龄增长，他也开始反思健康管理。他认为世界上没有任何事情比健康更重要，因此过去不肯腾出时间去做心肺有氧、力量抗阻训练（lifting）或高强度间歇训练（HIIT）完全没有任何借口。受到名医 Peter Attia（以长寿与代谢健康医学著称）理念的冲击，James Hoffmann 的健康认知被彻底重塑。他决定哪怕让本已忙碌的生活变得更复杂、把白天的时间压榨得更紧凑，也必须把锻炼的硬指标塞进日程中，不再空喊“等以后有时间再去练瑜伽”的空头支票。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 创业执念与健康意识的平衡转变
accDescr: 展示 James Hoffmann 从单纯享受创业创造转变为主动挤压时间融入健康锻炼的认知路径
subgraph Mindset["内心动力与现实死结"]
A["热爱创造与商业拓展<br/>（即使卖掉公司也会重新创业）"] --> B["时间被填满，缺乏空白与业余爱好"]
B --> C["习惯性推迟自我关照<br/>（幻想'未来某天'再去放松练瑜伽）"]
end
subgraph Realization["认知觉醒与执行落地"]
D["受到 Peter Attia 健康与长寿理念冲击"] --> E["认知统一：没有任何事情比健康更重要"]
E --> F["打破幻想：主动增加日程复杂度，硬性挤出时间做力量与心肺训练"]
end
C -.-> D
```
---
### [01:13:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4383s) 给年轻人的职业箴言：在好奇中探索，远离盲目内卷
当 Steven Bartlett 问及，如果他的两个年幼的孩子未来向他寻求职业建议，他会分享什么经验时，James Hoffmann 给出了极为诚恳的见解：
* **追随真正感兴趣的事物**：无论孩子对什么产生兴趣，哪怕是看似微不足道的圆珠笔笔帽（pen lids），只要有真正的热情，里面都潜藏着商业机会。他回忆道，在 2000 年代初期，精品咖啡根本不是一个所谓的朝阳产业，那时候如果谁家孩子在咖啡馆打工，父母绝不会以此为傲，大家只觉得这是一种找正式工作前用来糊口或付房租的临时跳板。正因为他发自内心喜爱咖啡，并得到了鼓励和施展的机会，才在这个当时不起眼的领域开花结果。
* **20 岁试错，30 岁专注**：他认为 20 多岁的人生阶段就是用来探索兴奋点、摸清喜好的；而到了 30 多岁，就要全神贯注地把它做好。
* **痛斥“奋斗剥削文化（Hustle Grind Nonsense）”**：回顾自己的 30 岁，他告诫年轻人千万别像他当年那样愚蠢。当时社会极度崇尚“必须工作到精疲力竭、不睡在办公桌底下就不是在奋斗”的畸形文化，这导致他差点彻底厌恶自己曾经热爱的事物。他直言那种拼命文化是“谎言、愚蠢且极度不健康”的。
* **糟糕工作的反向价值**：在找到咖啡事业前，他也做过各种糟糕透顶的工作——在赌场当荷官、挨家挨户上门推销煤气和电力、从事音乐出版工作。虽然他讨厌这些工作的每一分钟，但这些经历极具价值，因为它们让他早早认清了自己绝对不想过怎样的人生。
---
### [01:15:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4537s) 核心竞争力的复盘：双轨高强度沟通锤炼
许多人对某个领域抱有热情，但鲜少有人能登顶成为世界咖啡师大赛（WBC）冠军并建立广泛的行业影响力。Steven Bartlett 追问 James Hoffmann 对自身技能进行盘点审计时，究竟哪一项关键能力支撑他走得如此之远。
James Hoffmann 毫不犹豫地将成功归功于长年累月的高强度**沟通能力训练**。他解释说，这种表达功底并非与生俱来，而是通过两段长期的实战经历打磨出来的：
1. **博客写作的思维内化**：他长期撰写专业咖啡博客，这迫使他必须把复杂、晦涩的技术知识充分消化咀嚼，再用清晰直白的语言解释给读者听。这种“输入—消化—重构输出”的循环极大地锻炼了他的逻辑归纳与表达能力。
2. **移动培训巡回演讲**：早年他曾担任一家意式浓缩咖啡机公司的全英培训经理。那是一段极度硬核的经历：他的汽车后备箱里常年塞着一台商用咖啡机、投影仪和幕布，整辆车就像一个移动咖啡馆。他独自驾车穿梭于全英国各个城镇，每到一个地方就临时搭建起一间教室，面对 30 位背景各异的陌生人连续进行长达 3 小时的高强度技术讲授与演示。正是这种长期的现场即兴演讲与教学，赋予了他在公众面前举重若轻的沟通掌控力。
### [01:16:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4572s) 早期巡回演讲的磨砺与服务业中的同理心
James Hoffmann 回忆起自己在 25、26 岁时的经历。那时他每周都要打包行李，奔波于不同的城镇与城市之间，面对一群完全冷漠、毫无兴趣的陌生观众进行演讲与演示。正是这长达两年的高强度历练，彻底重塑了他的表达能力。此前他自认是一个极度差劲的公众演讲者，但正是通过不断尝试“如何打动他们、如何与他们沟通、如何教会他们知识”，他渐渐爱上了站在舞台上的感觉。他指出，这种能力如今深远地影响着他制作视频与人际交流的风格——学会“把想法在嘴里先充分咀嚼咀嚼，再吐出来表达”。
随后，讨论延伸到了服务业与年轻一代所需的沟通能力。James 强调，真正的优质沟通必须建立在同理心之上，而这正是他极力推荐年轻人去咖啡馆或餐厅工作的核心原因。服务业是一个迫使你时刻去“读懂人心”的环境。James 提出，一家优秀的咖啡馆应当是“快乐的可靠供应商”（a reliable vendor of happiness），顾客走进来时无论带着什么心情，离开时都应该感到更加愉悦。这就需要吧台后的咖啡师具备细微的观察力与同理心：
- 敏锐捕捉顾客此刻真正需要什么：是需要一次热情的交谈，想听听咖啡豆的故事？还是希望咖啡师闭嘴，以最快速度做出一杯咖啡让他们赶路？
- 这种在服务业中磨炼出的共情能力与察言观色技巧，是无论未来转向任何行业都能受益终身的关键核心能力。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 服务业同理心转化模型
accDescr: 展示咖啡师如何通过同理心判断顾客需求并转化为跨行业沟通能力
subgraph FrontLine["吧台一线实践"]
A["观察顾客状态"] --> B{"需求判断"}
B -->|"需要倾听交流"| C["分享咖啡知识与寒暄"]
B -->|"时间紧迫赶路"| D["保持安静以最快速度出杯"]
end
subgraph Impact["能力与价值沉淀"]
C --> E["咖啡馆成为'快乐的可靠供应商'"]
D --> E
E --> F["深层同理心与沟通技巧"]
F --> G["可迁移至任何职业的核心素养"]
end
```
---
### [01:18:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4707s) 史蒂文对 James 的技能审计：从“实践者”到“快乐传播者”
主持人 Steven Bartlett 对 James 展开了一次现场的“技能审计”，剖析他能取得如今成就的核心特质。Steven 总结出几个关键支柱：极其刻苦的勤奋（这是贯穿职业生涯的顺风动力）；对学习的无穷好奇心，由此积攒了庞大的知识储备；极其强大的信息提炼与生动叙事能力，凭借引人入胜的语调让观众听得津津有味；以及超过 20 年在咖啡冲煮技艺上的千锤百炼。Steven 特别区分了“实践者”（practitioners）与“鹦鹉学舌者”（parrots）——James 是真正扎根一线的实践者，而非单纯复述他人理论的二手传播者。此外，James 天生具有极高亲和力，脸上常年带着若有若无的微笑与善意，整个人散发出一种自洽的幸福感。
当被问及若要通过扩音器向全世界 80 亿人传递一段关于咖啡的结束语时，James 给出了一个纯粹而热诚的建议：
- “只要你想，咖啡真的非常非常有趣。”
- “只要你愿意为此投入一丁点儿心思，我向你保证，你获得的收获会远远超过付出。无论你以何种方式享用咖啡，它能给你的远比你想象的要多。”
这番话彻底点燃了 Steven 对咖啡的探索欲。James 当即热情邀请 Steven 有空一起在附近挑豆子、做杯测，帮助他找到自己最喜欢的风味。
---
### [01:20:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4846s) 上期嘉宾的离奇提问与经典著作解读
播客迎来了经典的“上期嘉宾留言”环节。Steven 翻开笔记本后哭笑不得，连连向 James 打预防针，警告他接下来要念出的问题极其荒谬。在 James 的满腹狐疑中，Steven 念出了上期嘉宾留下的问题：“你夜间勃起的持续时间是多久？”James 瞬间猜出了问题的主人：“你们刚刚请了 Bryan Johnson（著名长寿抗衰科技富豪）来吗？”James 笑着回应，关于那个测量设备，自己在看到的时候就已经售罄了，所以并不知道答案。两位嘉宾对 Bryan Johnson 留下的这份“离谱作业”爆笑调侃，直呼这绝对成不了任何常规话题卡的内容。
随后，话题转到了 James 撰写的两部里程碑式著作上，Steven 对其精美的装帧和扎实的知识体系给予了极高评价：
- 《世界咖啡地图》（The World Atlas of Coffee）：目前已出版第二版。全书配图华美、史料厚重，详尽覆盖了全球产区知识与咖啡设备原理，被 Steven 盛赞为咖啡爱好者不可多得的终极读物。James 解释，这本书是在精品咖啡浪潮迅速膨胀、各种复杂信息层出不穷时撰写的，旨在成为一本理清混乱咖啡新世界的权威指南。
- 《如何在家里做最好的咖啡》（How to Make The Best Coffee at Home）：一本极其通俗易懂的家用咖啡实操指南。James 撰写此书的目的是帮助大众剔除咖啡制作中的玄学和繁琐怪癖，专注于真正能决定咖啡风味的核心步骤，让新手无需昂贵设备也能在厨房搭建起好喝的冲煮方案。
访谈在轻松幽默的气氛中走向尾声，Steven 戏称在录完播客后要立刻去买一杯麦当劳咖啡来犒劳自己。最后，Steven 还口播介绍了本期播客的赞助商兼其投资品牌 Huel，介绍了其历时三年研发、兼具高蛋白与 27 种维生素且低糖的代餐棒产品。
## Notable quotes
> [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=0s) 要是这杯很贵，我会觉得奇怪……甚至会有点愤怒。 — James Hoffmann
> [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=0s) 如果你想要最极致的咖啡体验，选这一杯。 — James Hoffmann
> [02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=129s) 你可以花上几辈子去学习它，却永远学不完。 — James Hoffmann
> [17:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=1045s) 我想我们对咖啡因的摄入正在变得更加审慎。最终大家反思的根源会是咖啡因，而不是整杯咖啡……咖啡本身含有足够的健康益处，值得我们长期保留；但吸烟没有任何健康益处。我们对待咖啡因的态度和关系确实会发生改变。 — James Hoffmann
> [39:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2366s) 你究竟在想什么？你以为你拥有和他们一样的供应链吗？连锁巨头利润极其丰厚，你又不可能每周去采购两千万个纸杯！ — James Hoffmann
> [48:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=2916s) 如果你给我一个亚马逊上 20 英镑的普通滴滤机，但配上一台优秀的磨豆机，我能做出相当不错的咖啡；但如果你给我一台 20 英镑的劣质磨豆机和一台 5000 英镑的咖啡机，我做出来的咖啡绝对糟糕透顶。 — James Hoffmann
> [53:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3189s) 只要你稍微花一点点心思，就能用更低的成本做出好得多的东西。 — James Hoffmann
> [01:00:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=3628s) 如果你把一个苹果切成块放在那里两个小时，你能亲眼看到它的表面变色氧化；但当你把咖啡豆粉碎成极细的颗粒时，你立刻触发了一连串不可逆转的化学反应。 — James Hoffmann
> [01:18:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g&t=4707s) 只要你想，咖啡真的非常非常有趣。只要你愿意为此投入一丁点儿心思，我向你保证，你获得的收获会远远超过付出。无论你以何种方式享用咖啡，它能给你的远比你想象的要多。 — James Hoffmann
## Mentioned
Steven Bartlett, James Hoffmann, Julian Metcalfe, Pret A Manger, Tim Spector, Dr. Daniel Amen, Peter Attia, Bryan Johnson, The Diary Of A CEO, Square Mile Coffee Roasters, World Barista Championship, McDonald's, Costa Coffee, Starbucks, Lloyd's of London, LinkedIn Jobs, Shopify, Huel, 《The Devil's Cup》, 《How to Make The Best Coffee at Home》, 《The World Atlas of Coffee》
## Video description
If you enjoy hearing about the world of coffee, I recommend you check out my conversation with the founder of Pret, Julian Metcalfe, which you can find here: https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=uViyOJsc6O4
0:00 Intro
02:09 Why Coffee?
03:55 Are We addicted To Coffee?
05:56 The Only Reason We Should Stop Drinking Coffee
08:38 Do We Get Immune To Coffee The More We Drink?
11:04 The Surprising Health Benefits Of Coffee
22:40 How Caffeine Actually Works
27:04 Becoming The World’s Number 1 Barista Champion
28:16 The Biggest Misconceptions About Coffee
31:10 Blind Tasting Different Coffees
43:43 Your Businesses
44:46 What Are The Topics About Coffee People Care Most About
53:14 Coffee Pods
54:50 The History Of Coffee
58:14 Your Favourite Coffee Drink
01:03:22 The Future Of Coffee
01:06:10 What Coffee Should We Buy
01:09:52 What’s Your Sleep Like
01:11:11 Most Important Career Advice
01:15:43 How You Built Good Communication Skills
01:19:40 Closing Message About Coffee
01:20:42 The Last Guests Question
You can purchase James’ most recent book, ‘How to Make The Best Coffee at Home’, here: https://amzn.to/3sW2Rl6
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Sponsors:
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Shopify: http://shopify.com/bartlett
Huel: https://g2ul0.app.link/G4RjcdKNKsb
[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=TqNrJNhcf5g)
Source quotes
[0:00] James Hoffmann: 要是这杯很贵，我会觉得奇怪……甚至会有点愤怒。
[0:00] James Hoffmann: 如果你想要最极致的咖啡体验，选这一杯。
[2:09] James Hoffmann: 你可以花上几辈子去学习它，却永远学不完。
[17:25] James Hoffmann: 我想我们对咖啡因的摄入正在变得更加审慎。最终大家反思的根源会是咖啡因，而不是整杯咖啡……咖啡本身含有足够的健康益处，值得我们长期保留；但吸烟没有任何健康益处。我们对待咖啡因的态度和关系确实会发生改变。
[39:26] James Hoffmann: 你究竟在想什么？你以为你拥有和他们一样的供应链吗？连锁巨头利润极其丰厚，你又不可能每周去采购两千万个纸杯！
[48:36] James Hoffmann: 如果你给我一个亚马逊上 20 英镑的普通滴滤机，但配上一台优秀的磨豆机，我能做出相当不错的咖啡；但如果你给我一台 20 英镑的劣质磨豆机和一台 5000 英镑的咖啡机，我做出来的咖啡绝对糟糕透顶。
[53:09] James Hoffmann: 只要你稍微花一点点心思，就能用更低的成本做出好得多的东西。
[60:28] James Hoffmann: 如果你把一个苹果切成块放在那里两个小时，你能亲眼看到它的表面变色氧化；但当你把咖啡豆粉碎成极细的颗粒时，你立刻触发了一连串不可逆转的化学反应。
[78:27] James Hoffmann: 只要你想，咖啡真的非常非常有趣。只要你愿意为此投入一丁点儿心思，我向你保证，你获得的收获会远远超过付出。无论你以何种方式享用咖啡，它能给你的远比你想象的要多。
Source quotes
[16:50] James Hoffmann: Decaf drinkers are the ones who are drinking it just for the taste. They are the purest coffee consumer, actually, cause they just want the flavor. They don't even want the caffeine... Madness.
[25:50] James Hoffmann: Caffeine exists in coffee primarily as an insect repellent. That's why the plant produces it, so that if an insect attacks the fruit, it gets a whack of caffeine and it's like, 'Nope.'
[31:50] James Hoffmann: If you take a component smell of Coca-Cola like lime... right? 'Coke' just tastes of Coke to people, but it's actually lime, neroli, cinnamon, orange, nutmeg. And if you smell a bunch of cinnamon and then smell Coke, it smells weird cuz you've deleted cinnamon from Coca-Cola's like aroma profile.
[40:30] James Hoffmann: I'm always going to bat for independents because it's not like you can spend more, you can get a better product by someone who cares deeply about it... Independents feel like a risk, but the reward I think is often there for sure.
[51:35] James Hoffmann: Anytime we go convenience, we have to sacrifice something. And it's usually quality. And it's usually value.
[60:00] James Hoffmann: When you smash coffee into little pieces, when you grind it to fine powder, you kickstart a bunch of chemistry that you can't undo.
[69:52] James Hoffmann: If you stopped me and said, 'What do you do for fun?' I'd have to stop and think about that for quite a long time... I don't think I have a hobby, if that makes sense.
[79:40] James Hoffmann: if you are willing to put in a little tiny bit, I guarantee you will get way more out.
[80:25] Steven Bartlett: What is the duration of your nighttime erections?
[80:35] James Hoffmann: Did you just have Bryan Johnson on here?
Original transcript
[0:00] You're the former world barista
[0:02] champion. So, we have cups of coffee
[0:04] here from different supplies. So, coffee
[0:06] number one. Yeah, I'd be surprised if
[0:07] that was expensive.
[0:09] I'd be a little bit outraged if that was
[0:10] expensive.
[0:12] That's kind of weird.
[0:14] That's really interesting.
[0:16] If you want the best experience for
[0:18] coffee, this one. I can reveal that is
[0:20] James Hoffmann. One of the most famous
[0:23] people in the world when it comes to
[0:24] coffee.
[0:25] James has close to 2 million subscribers
[0:27] on YouTube.
[0:27] The most popular piece of coffee
[0:29] broadcasting on the planet. You've
[0:31] committed a huge portion of your life to
[0:34] coffee. What advice have you got for me?
[0:36] Okay. London has some of the best coffee
[0:38] shops in the world. Don't get an
[0:39] espresso machine for home. Coffee pods?
[0:41] They're a microwave meal. How long does
[0:43] it take to decay?
[0:44] The minute you open that bag, it's on
[0:45] its way out and it will happen really
[0:46] quickly. You walk into the Starbucks,
[0:48] what do you order? If I'm being fully
[0:49] weird
[0:50] Be fully weird.
[0:51] Fine. Then I'm going to
[0:53] Say I've got 100 pounds for the
[0:54] machinery. Coffee grinders are the right
[0:56] investment. They are more important than
[0:58] the machine. What's your favorite cup of
[1:00] coffee?
[1:01] If I'm honest, it is
[1:03] Are we addicted? It's the world's most
[1:05] popular psychoactive drug. But, you look
[1:07] at the science, coffee seems to be
[1:09] healthy and have a really positive
[1:11] impact wherever it's been measured. It's
[1:13] a great source of fiber. It is like
[1:14] having another vegetable in your diet.
[1:16] People tend to perform better on
[1:17] cognitive tests. It looks like coffee
[1:19] drinkers survive longer. The problem
[1:21] with it is that coffee has this really
[1:23] depressing future. Why?
[1:28] Quick one. This is really really
[1:29] fascinating to me. On the back end of
[1:31] our YouTube channel, it says that 69.9%
[1:35] of you that watch this channel
[1:36] frequently over the lifetime of this
[1:37] channel haven't yet hit the subscribe
[1:39] button. I just wanted to ask you a
[1:40] favor. It helps this channel so much if
[1:43] you choose to just subscribe. Helps us
[1:45] scale the guests, helps us scale the
[1:46] production, and it makes the show
[1:48] bigger. So, if I could ask you for one
[1:49] favor, if you've watched this show
[1:50] before and you've enjoyed it and you
[1:52] like this episode that you're currently
[1:53] watching, could you please hit the
[1:55] subscribe button? Thank you so much and
[1:57] I will repay that gesture by making sure
[1:59] that everything we do here gets better
[2:01] and better and better and better. That
[2:02] is a promise I'm willing to make you. Do
[2:04] we have a deal?
[2:12] James
[2:13] You've committed a huge portion of your
[2:15] life
[2:17] to a drink, to a bean,
[2:19] to coffee. Yeah.
[2:21] Why?
[2:22] Uh I love it. It brings me intense
[2:25] pleasure. Like the whole thing. I think
[2:26] I fell in love with it 20 years ago.
[2:29] And uh I tried working in wine. People
[2:30] get falling in love with wine, right?
[2:32] Like people with the drink, with the
[2:33] culture, with where it's grown, all that
[2:35] stuff.
[2:36] The same can be true with coffee and
[2:38] turned out to be true for me. And I'm
[2:41] uh kind of obsessed with learning and
[2:44] coffee is so big. People see it as kind
[2:45] of niche. What I do is a niche, but it's
[2:47] this global thing. It's in every
[2:48] culture. There's everything from botany
[2:51] to science to like health, all the rest
[2:53] of it's wrapped in this one thing. So, I
[2:55] can spend lifetimes learning about it
[2:57] and never be done. It it it's just huge
[2:59] fun. And it's one of those things that's
[3:01] capable of incredible surprise. People's
[3:03] expectations of coffee are very low
[3:05] often. And and
[3:07] when you kind of show them what it can
[3:09] be, that's a very satisfying moment that
[3:10] never gets tiring. Cuz I just thought of
[3:13] coffee as a drink that everyone seems to
[3:15] be pretty
[3:16] addicted to.
[3:18] But, I imagine your perspective on on
[3:19] that is a little bit more artistic and
[3:22] expansive. I mean, yes and no. Coffee's
[3:24] existence kind of blows my mind. It's a
[3:25] thing that we all do that for over 100
[3:28] years now it's been normal to have the
[3:30] ground-up seeds of a tropical fruit
[3:31] plant to sit in your cupboard and you
[3:33] can steep that in water and drink it.
[3:35] That's a weird human thing that we do.
[3:37] And it's just been a part of everyone's
[3:39] lives for as long as they can remember.
[3:40] Coffee's just there.
[3:42] But, it turns out it in sort of the last
[3:43] 20 years we've had this boom of
[3:45] specialty coffee where we've kind of
[3:47] showcased how interesting it can be. You
[3:49] know, it's not just this commoditized
[3:50] thing. And I think that bit has sort of
[3:53] changed consumption around the world
[3:55] now, actually. I see it in every
[3:57] country. You know, people's opinions and
[3:59] expectations of coffee have shifted
[4:00] massively. When I first started drinking
[4:03] coffee, which I think I was quite late
[4:04] to coffee, and I think I'm quite a
[4:07] a low-level consumer of coffee.
[4:10] Part of the reason I was put off
[4:11] drinking coffee was because it appears
[4:13] that the entirety of society are
[4:14] addicted to it. And it might have this
[4:17] sort of first principle belief that
[4:19] anything that has a significant upside
[4:20] must come with a significant downside.
[4:22] Sure. And and no one can tell me what
[4:24] the downside was. So, I was just very
[4:26] reluctant to engage in an addiction when
[4:28] I can see the upside. I can see people
[4:30] are more focused. They seem to be higher
[4:32] in energy. That's the appearance I have.
[4:34] But, the downside was never clear.
[4:37] We are addicted, aren't we?
[4:39] Do you know I don't like that word?
[4:41] No, no. It is you know, it's um yeah, we
[4:43] it's the world's most popular
[4:44] psychoactive drug. It is the most widely
[4:46] consumed psychoactive drug. Yes, I would
[4:48] say it's absolutely bound itself into
[4:50] society now. It Are we addicted?
[4:53] Yeah. I mean, addiction's complicated.
[4:55] I'm not I'm not an expert on addiction.
[4:57] I would say there's a level of
[4:57] dependency.
[4:59] If you stop drinking caffeine, you will
[5:01] suffer for 24 to 48 hours. It might be a
[5:04] kind of big old headache. It might be
[5:05] something else. So, you know, you will
[5:07] uh have symptoms if you stop consuming
[5:10] it. But, you can stop consuming coffee
[5:13] and then go for years without an urge to
[5:15] consume it again. So, I wouldn't say
[5:17] addiction's quite the right word for it.
[5:19] But, yeah, we are I would say deeply
[5:21] dependent on it. Have you ever stopped
[5:22] drinking it for a prolonged period of
[5:24] time? Not for a prolonged period of
[5:25] time. It's pretty hard for me not to
[5:28] sort of consume caffeine during what I
[5:30] do. Like there's just a need to taste, a
[5:32] need to you know, drink the stuff. I've
[5:34] stopped over periods I've gotten sick.
[5:36] I've gone a week or two without it. But,
[5:38] I've changed my attitude to caffeine
[5:40] generally. I'm I'm much more careful
[5:42] around it because I think it is
[5:45] worthy of concern, the amount of
[5:47] caffeine you consume. Like I'm very pro
[5:48] coffee. I want people to drink and enjoy
[5:50] coffee. But, at the same time, I I am
[5:52] very nervous to encourage caffeine
[5:54] consumption that might be excessive cuz
[5:56] that's definitely not good for you. Why?
[5:58] Sleep. Like ultimately, anything in this
[6:01] world that interrupts your sleep
[6:03] perhaps with the exception of children,
[6:05] is probably to be avoided, right? Like
[6:06] sleep quality for every outcome, be it
[6:09] you know, body composition, longevity,
[6:11] all the rest of it. Like cognition. Uh
[6:13] sleep's so important. And I feel like we
[6:15] we didn't culturally prioritize the
[6:17] sleep the way we are beginning to now.
[6:19] You know, I think more and more people
[6:20] are talking about the importance of
[6:21] sleep. And it's really easy to get into
[6:24] a cycle with caffeine of
[6:27] drinking too much coffee in the day, you
[6:29] have poor quality sleep. You're tired
[6:31] the next day. I'll fix that with more
[6:34] caffeine, which will give you lower
[6:35] quality sleep at night. And that cycle
[6:37] can go on and on and on. I think that's
[6:39] very
[6:40] that's a bad thing.
[6:41] Basically, I would say that's to be
[6:43] avoided. So, I'm pro cutting off
[6:45] caffeine early if you suffer with it in
[6:47] any way. And there's enough ways to
[6:48] track your sleep these days. I feel like
[6:50] everything's tracking our sleep. So, you
[6:51] can tell if you've had a bad night's
[6:53] sleep and if you drank a coffee late,
[6:55] maybe don't do that anymore because you
[6:57] know, caffeine has about a 5-hour
[6:59] half-life.
[7:00] So, you know, even 10 hours after you
[7:03] drank a cup of coffee, there's still a
[7:04] decent amount floating around in your
[7:06] system. Enough that might you know,
[7:08] delay onset of sleep or reduce the
[7:10] quality of your sleep. Isn't it bonkers
[7:12] that people offer you an espresso after
[7:14] dinner in restaurants?
[7:15] I don't I don't get it. For some people
[7:16] they find it very calming and they
[7:17] really enjoy it. They love it. They have
[7:19] no issues sleeping. I cannot touch
[7:21] caffeine after like 3:00 p.m. I have
[7:23] like a hard cut-off and I'm done.
[7:25] But, yeah, I find the you know, there's
[7:27] the idea that it's a
[7:28] digestive aid. I'm not sure that's super
[7:31] well evidenced
[7:33] to be honest having looked into it
[7:34] anyway. But, if people enjoy it, I'm not
[7:37] going to get in the way of it. But, for
[7:39] and some people sleep like a baby
[7:40] afterwards. I'm always amazed by those
[7:42] people that are like, yeah, I have
[7:42] coffee I got to sleep. I'm like, how?
[7:44] How? And there's big genetic differences
[7:46] and I think we we're starting to see
[7:47] those and and you can get genetic tests
[7:50] done that will give you an idea of your
[7:51] uh caffeine metabolizer kind of rate.
[7:53] Are you slow? Are you fast?
[7:55] But, um yeah, it's it's
[7:58] it's one of those weird things where
[8:00] because how coffee's made can impact the
[8:02] quantity of caffeine in the end cup, you
[8:05] can't accurately predict how much
[8:06] caffeine's in a uh coffee from a coffee
[8:09] shop. Right? There's a bunch of
[8:10] variables that can happen that will
[8:11] produce a pretty big variance. So, this
[8:14] incredibly popular drug, we don't know
[8:17] how much we're taking most of the time,
[8:19] which I think is kind of wild. Uh and
[8:22] maybe not a good thing. And so, I'm I'm
[8:25] kind of pro mindful consumption of this
[8:27] stuff if that makes sense. Like just be
[8:28] aware of it and thoughtful about it. And
[8:31] still enjoy it. I want people to drink
[8:32] and enjoy coffee.
[8:33] But, I I want as much upside as
[8:35] possible, as little downside.
[8:37] You used the word drug there. With drugs
[8:39] you get a sort of tolerance Mhm.
[8:42] that requires you to have more and more
[8:44] of the thing to get to the same levels
[8:46] of
[8:47] I don't know, psychoactiveness.
[8:50] Is that the same with coffee where if I
[8:51] have one coffee today, in a couple of
[8:54] months' time I'm going to need two to
[8:55] get to the same level of like alertness?
[8:58] Yes and no. Okay. Uh it seems to be that
[9:01] the benefits that we see of caffeine
[9:03] when it comes to cognition
[9:05] uh disappear with habitual usage. And
[9:07] actually adding more doesn't change it.
[9:09] That first coffee that feels so good is
[9:12] taking us sort of instead of going from
[9:14] zero to one, it's taking us from minus
[9:16] one to zero. It's removing the kind of
[9:18] withdrawal symptom almost and bringing
[9:20] us back to a kind of level of like,
[9:22] okay, I'm here now. And so, if you
[9:24] really really want maximum benefit from
[9:26] caffeine, be it cognition or sports or
[9:28] anything else, then actually having a
[9:29] period without coffee beforehand will
[9:32] give you the sort of greatest benefit
[9:33] afterwards. So, there's a habituation, I
[9:36] guess.
[9:36] Mhm. But, it doesn't escalate the way
[9:38] the drugs do. Like you you don't need to
[9:39] suddenly be drinking six, eight, 10 cups
[9:41] of coffee to have an effect. You'll just
[9:43] feel weird. Uh So, yeah, a little bit
[9:46] though. Again, going back to my first
[9:48] principles. One of my first principles
[9:49] in life generally, and this is why I
[9:51] often avoid medicine, paracetamol, you
[9:54] name it. I will I'd rather take the
[9:56] headache than than start dabbling
[9:58] because I always think there's a cost to
[9:59] something. When I think about the way we
[10:01] live our lives in society, we literally
[10:04] many people will have three or four cups
[10:05] of coffee a day. Some people even more.
[10:08] Some people will just drink coffee all
[10:10] the way through the day, throughout
[10:12] work, and then have one on their way
[10:13] home from work as well. And I look at
[10:15] that objectively and go, that's
[10:16] insanity. That this is sort of the
[10:18] entire Western population is just like
[10:20] caffeinating themselves just to
[10:22] function. And then you hear phrases like
[10:24] I like um
[10:26] oh, I can't function I can't function.
[10:27] I've not had my coffee yet.
[10:28] Mhm.
[10:29] And I just go oh, this is you know
[10:33] But I don't know enough about coffee to
[10:34] understand if that's just, you know,
[10:36] maybe there is a free lunch as it
[10:37] relates to coffee or maybe sleep is the
[10:38] only
[10:40] I think it's sleep's the primary
[10:41] concern. You know, if you and if you're
[10:43] not suffering any issues with sleep from
[10:45] your coffee consumption, then you know,
[10:47] if you look at the science, I'm not a
[10:49] scientist. I really I like to read the
[10:51] research papers, but I'm not doing the
[10:52] research. But
[10:54] on almost every front, coffee seems to
[10:56] be healthy and have a really positive
[10:59] impact wherever it's been measured and
[11:01] across a whole range of different stuff.
[11:03] So, you know, as to why caffeine's one
[11:06] part of it, I think the fact that coffee
[11:08] contains a surprising amount of fiber is
[11:10] another one or the quantity of
[11:11] polyphenols in there if you're
[11:13] interested in the gut microbiome. Like
[11:14] coffee seems to be really good for that
[11:17] and I think we know more and more the
[11:18] microbiome you know, Tim Spector has
[11:21] taught us all the importance of that
[11:23] that it impacts us in so many different
[11:25] ways. So
[11:26] on almost any front, if you've
[11:28] researched is coffee good for
[11:31] you know, longevity? Yes, you see a
[11:33] reduction in all cause mortality that
[11:34] correlates to coffee consumption. Is it
[11:36] good for cognitive decline? Yes, you
[11:38] tend to see coffee consumption
[11:40] associated with
[11:41] less cognitive decline in old age or
[11:44] liver function, cancer.
[11:46] All of these things seem to have a
[11:48] positive association with coffee
[11:50] drinking.
[11:51] But
[11:52] if it's messing with your sleep, I don't
[11:53] think it's worth it. That's just me.
[11:55] That's the the line for me of like it's
[11:57] not such an incredible benefit that that
[12:00] it is worth the loss of sleep quality.
[12:03] Mhm.
[12:04] Yeah, sleep has become just the most
[12:06] sort of the biggest obsession in my life
[12:08] over the last year. I think for all of
[12:09] us. I think it's it's just if you pay
[12:11] attention to the stuff, you can't help
[12:13] but begin to obsess over it. I hope
[12:15] healthily. Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah.
[12:17] So, to avoid the
[12:18] impact of coffee impacting on sleep, you
[12:20] think the best thing to do is cuz I've
[12:22] just not been drinking coffee after like
[12:24] 1:00 p.m. It's great. Okay.
[12:26] that's a pretty good way to go. I think
[12:27] decaf is still a good option. I think
[12:28] people are kind of really negative about
[12:30] decaf because we have this caffeine
[12:32] first association with coffee. A lot of
[12:34] people are like, why would I drink
[12:35] decaf? What's the point? You know, you
[12:37] see a lot of death before decaf or
[12:38] whatever. But I I think decaf can be
[12:40] really tasty, which is good. Like it's a
[12:42] nice delicious hot drink. And also,
[12:44] yeah, there's a little bit less of the
[12:45] downside if you are concerned about
[12:47] caffeine. I'm so I'm so composed You and
[12:49] Tim Spector are the two people that have
[12:51] made the case I mean I think the first
[12:52] time I spoke to Tim Spector about
[12:53] coffee, he was a little bit on the fence
[12:56] as
[12:56] as to whether it was healthy or not. He
[12:58] came back a second time and I think
[12:59] there's been
[13:01] a
[13:02] just a little bit of a shift in him.
[13:04] He's now pro-coffee. Mhm. In terms of
[13:06] the gut microbiome, which I thought was
[13:08] super interesting. He says it counts as
[13:09] one of my 30
[13:11] Yeah.
[13:12] a week that I need to get, which it was
[13:13] really surprising. So, it helped my gut
[13:14] microbiome.
[13:16] He talked about the longevity impacts as
[13:17] well, which I thought was staggering
[13:18] that it can the study seemed to show
[13:20] that it will extend your life. Yeah,
[13:22] it's a reduction in all cause mortality.
[13:24] So, you're just less likely to die
[13:26] early, I suppose, is the easiest way to
[13:28] think about it. Or that's what we see
[13:29] from the studies. And it's not that the
[13:31] studies aren't without flaws, but
[13:33] there's been a lot now and you tend to
[13:35] see people dying less often or less
[13:37] early
[13:38] when they drink more coffee. Not a huge
[13:40] amount of coffee. And this is a if you
[13:42] ever go into the research, this is
[13:44] really important.
[13:45] A a cup of coffee to you or me might
[13:47] look like this.
[13:48] A cup of coffee to a researcher is 120
[13:51] mils of coffee.
[13:52] Which is about half of this.
[13:55] So, you'll see loads of studies say
[13:56] three cups of coffee, three cups of
[13:57] coffee is where you see these benefits.
[13:59] That's not a liter of coffee. That's
[14:02] more like 3 to 400 mils total a day of
[14:05] say filter coffee or one or two or three
[14:07] espressos, single espressos. So, the the
[14:09] definition of a a cup from all these
[14:12] studies is really confusing and
[14:13] problematic.
[14:15] And I think encourages excess coffee
[14:16] consumption.
[14:17] Uh but yeah
[14:19] three cups of coffee for heart disease,
[14:21] for
[14:22] all sorts of things is is is seen to be
[14:25] associated with
[14:26] improvement in outcome. Why might that
[14:28] be?
[14:30] What is it about the bean, the coffee
[14:31] bean, that is causing
[14:33] health benefits? That's probably above
[14:35] my pay grade. I would I would probably
[14:37] at this point, I'm probably aligned with
[14:39] Tim in that it's a great source of fiber
[14:41] and polyphenols. That it's just it is
[14:42] like having another vegetable into the
[14:44] diet. It's more diversity of diet.
[14:46] Uh I think one study showed that for
[14:48] some people in the US
[14:50] like cups of filter coffee were their
[14:51] primary source of dietary fiber.
[14:54] Now, that's kind of wild and not really
[14:56] how things should be, but it is a
[14:59] significant source of fiber. If you
[15:00] think about it that way, you know, a
[15:02] large cup might be 3 g of fiber, which
[15:04] doesn't seem like much until you start
[15:05] tracking your fiber intake and you
[15:06] realize oh, that's a that's a a decent
[15:08] contribution for a drink. Um so, yeah, I
[15:11] I I think that's the biggest
[15:12] part of it. I don't think caffeine
[15:15] has been shown to be neuroprotective
[15:17] necessarily. So, I think people are
[15:19] trying to understand the mechanism more.
[15:21] Caffeine's been studied separately and
[15:22] and is much easier to study because you
[15:25] can dose it, you can look at the effect
[15:26] of that.
[15:27] You to really do a study on coffee
[15:30] consumption
[15:31] is really hard. You can't really do a
[15:33] randomized control trial where you raise
[15:34] people from say 15 to 60 years old, you
[15:37] control their diet, exercise, sleep, and
[15:39] you just randomize the coffee
[15:41] consumption cuz then you might see
[15:42] something where you could really say
[15:44] coffee is good or bad. We can just look
[15:46] at these large epidemiological studies
[15:48] and say, well
[15:50] trying to control for diet and exercise
[15:52] and cigarettes and all these other
[15:53] things, it looks like coffee drinkers
[15:55] survive longer or have less issues. And
[15:57] it might just be that healthy people are
[15:59] just attracted to coffee. We don't
[16:01] really know which which way around that
[16:02] is.
[16:03] There's no strong mechanism, but at this
[16:05] point, I'd probably be aligned with with
[16:07] Tim on this one that I think it's
[16:08] primarily going to be the gut.
[16:10] The fiber point is super interesting cuz
[16:11] he said to me that we're like as a
[16:13] society extremely fiber deficient.
[16:15] Yes. I think the number he said that we
[16:16] needed was about 20 is it grams of fiber
[16:19] a day? I think so, yeah.
[16:20] So, if coffee's giving us three or four
[16:21] of those grams, that's almost sort of
[16:23] 25% of our
[16:24] um requirement, which is pretty
[16:26] staggering.
[16:28] And I never really thought of coffee as
[16:29] a source of fiber. Neither did I until
[16:31] he told me. I just didn't cross my mind
[16:34] that this, you know, it's it's a drink.
[16:35] How you know, it's not like a thick I
[16:37] lived the life of like fiber is is
[16:39] miserable cardboardy brown cereal.
[16:41] That's fiber in my brain. And the idea
[16:43] that this was fiber was
[16:45] inconceivable to me. But you know, then
[16:47] I read the studies and
[16:49] uh it was fascinating. What about mental
[16:51] health? I've always wondered, you know,
[16:53] even things like depression, anxiety.
[16:55] I've always assumed a little bit that
[16:58] coffee because of the caffeine is going
[17:00] to be bad for anxiety. I would certainly
[17:02] say
[17:03] not a doctor, but I would certainly say
[17:05] that if you someone suffers with anxiety
[17:08] cutting out caffeine would be something
[17:09] to test and to see if there's benefits
[17:11] to cutting caffeine out. The there are a
[17:13] bunch of studies done on it. They're not
[17:15] uniform in their outcome. Some found
[17:17] different results for caffeine
[17:18] consumption and I think because you're
[17:20] trying to study what is ultimately quite
[17:21] a generic term that covers a lot of
[17:23] different experiences and uh challenges
[17:25] that people face. So
[17:27] yeah, I I wouldn't say
[17:29] consume it regardless, don't think about
[17:30] it. I think if you struggle with
[17:31] anxiety, it would be certainly be worth
[17:33] considering
[17:35] cutting it out. What about depression?
[17:37] I think the same sort of thing is true
[17:38] there. I I think there have been studies
[17:40] that correlate caffeine consumption to
[17:42] depression.
[17:43] And I think there are people who have
[17:44] used it and have found benefit from it.
[17:46] Again, it's one of those ones where
[17:48] I just wouldn't blindly consume caffeine
[17:51] assuming a benefit to mental health. If
[17:53] I have mental health challenges, I think
[17:55] it's it's a place to check and it's
[17:57] pretty easy to check. Cut it out for a
[17:58] month.
[17:59] It'll suck for a few days.
[18:01] But you know, you may see benefits or
[18:03] you may not. But
[18:05] Another sort of complicated tenuous link
[18:07] has been made towards cancer with
[18:09] coffee. Mhm. Most of the meta studies
[18:11] now seem to come down on for almost
[18:13] every cancer, there's a lower incidence
[18:16] associated with coffee consumption.
[18:18] This that again, that's not universal.
[18:19] Some studies have found differently.
[18:21] Again, they're just really hard studies
[18:23] to do effectively, I think. I think
[18:25] that's the challenge of it.
[18:26] I have certainly not seen anything that
[18:28] makes me uh concerned about drinking
[18:32] coffee
[18:33] from that perspective anyway. I think
[18:35] there's a you know, whatever impact it
[18:36] may have, I think would be pretty minor
[18:38] compared to something like a
[18:40] cigarettes. And I you know, I remember I
[18:42] think you said
[18:43] on the internet sometime ago,
[18:46] uh you think in in 10 or 20 years' time,
[18:49] people will see coffee consumption the
[18:51] way they see cigarette consumption.
[18:52] Yeah, I did. I remember saying that 2
[18:54] years ago. Yeah. And I And I think to
[18:56] some extent, there's something in that.
[18:57] I I think we are getting more thoughtful
[18:59] about caffeine consumption and I think
[19:00] caffeine is going to be the root of it
[19:02] all rather than coffee as a whole.
[19:04] Yeah, that's what I should have said. I
[19:05] should have said caffeine. And I And I
[19:07] think there is change and I think, you
[19:09] know, we're definitely seeing that. I
[19:10] don't think I think there's enough
[19:12] health benefits in the coffee itself
[19:15] Mhm. that we would benefit from keeping
[19:17] it around. You know, I don't think
[19:19] there's any health benefits associated
[19:20] with cigarette smoking. But I I think
[19:22] coffee will have some benefits, but I
[19:23] think our attitude and our relationship
[19:25] with caffeine is going to change. I
[19:26] think you're right about that. Yeah,
[19:28] that's really what I was getting at. I
[19:29] almost didn't this is it couldn't
[19:32] pull apart coffee from caffeine because
[19:34] I'm a muggle on this subject matter. But
[19:37] what I really mean is that addiction to
[19:38] this drug of caffeine and how it's like
[19:40] running everyone's life and we need
[19:42] three cups or four cups a day just to be
[19:44] normal and to show up to work and think
[19:46] straight. I go, Jesus Christ, like
[19:48] as is always the case with these sort of
[19:50] health revolutions, we kind of go to one
[19:52] extreme, then we go to the other.
[19:53] There's the counter movement. They'll be
[19:54] like the big decaf movement. There's
[19:57] now, because of neurodiversity and
[19:58] anxiety concerns, there's this
[20:00] jitter-free, crash-free
[20:02] caffeine movement emerging and things
[20:04] like matcha and
[20:06] etc. So, hmm. Is decaf is Are you seeing
[20:10] a rise in people choosing decaf and
[20:13] The great frustration of decaf
[20:16] is that decaf drinkers are typically
[20:18] very poorly served by the coffee
[20:20] industry. Okay. For a bunch of reasons,
[20:21] coffee shop owners tend not to invest in
[20:23] decaf. Uh
[20:24] a lot of coffee roasting companies don't
[20:26] really care about decaf, despite the
[20:27] fact that decaf drinkers are the ones
[20:29] who are drinking it just for the taste.
[20:30] They are the purest coffee consumer,
[20:32] actually, cuz they just want the flavor.
[20:34] They don't even want the caffeine, just
[20:35] the flavor. Madness. So, you know, it it
[20:37] it's always been an important thing for
[20:39] me over the years uh that decaf be good,
[20:41] but yeah, I'd love to see more decaf
[20:43] consumption going on. I I think decaf
[20:45] can be really delicious and good if it's
[20:47] done properly all the way through from
[20:49] sort of farm to cup.
[20:51] But, it it's not as available as it
[20:53] should be to most people, which kind of
[20:55] hurts me.
[20:56] What about um Alzheimer's? Randomly
[20:58] something I've got increasingly more
[20:59] interested in over the last couple of
[21:01] years. I think from doing this podcast
[21:02] and speaking to health experts, but it
[21:04] has almost felt like this mystery
[21:06] disease that strikes some people for
[21:08] a reason that we haven't yet quite yet
[21:10] figured out. Perfectly healthy people
[21:12] can suddenly get the news that they have
[21:13] Alzheimer's. Is there a relationship
[21:15] from the studies that you've seen
[21:16] between Alzheimer's um and coffee?
[21:19] Yes. And I'm going to sound like a
[21:21] broken record, where you see once again
[21:23] up to about three cups of coffee a day
[21:25] saw an association with reduced
[21:27] cognitive decline and reduced incidence
[21:28] of Alzheimer's. So, it it it's uh again,
[21:32] I I I'm not saying that coffee is
[21:34] causing this. I'm saying in the studies,
[21:37] the people who drank coffee
[21:39] had better outcomes.
[21:41] But, you can't just say because they
[21:43] drank coffee. There's a really important
[21:44] disconnect in these kind of things that
[21:46] doesn't happen often enough.
[21:48] I had um Dr. Daniel Amen on the podcast.
[21:52] And one of his He's like a
[21:53] neuroscientist that scans I think he's
[21:55] scanned a quarter of a million brains
[21:56] now.
[21:57] He is one of the
[21:59] only people that has really expressed a
[22:00] concern about the impact that coffee has
[22:02] on the brain, because he says it reduces
[22:04] the amount of blood flow to the brain.
[22:06] Mhm. And that is in that negative thing.
[22:08] Have you ever heard about
[22:10] that that point of view before?
[22:12] I haven't heard much about that. Most of
[22:14] the studies I've read that looked at
[22:15] cognition see that kind of lift that
[22:17] caffeine will give you.
[22:18] Um in that, you know, people tend to
[22:20] perform better on cognitive tests after
[22:21] caffeine than or with caffeine than
[22:23] without.
[22:24] Um I'm surprised in that I I had thought
[22:27] caffeine was a vasodilator, which would,
[22:29] in theory, allow more blood flow around,
[22:31] but maybe it's not. You know, I haven't
[22:34] scanned a quarter million brains, uh so
[22:36] I'm not an expert on this one, but
[22:37] that's the first time I've heard someone
[22:39] talk about blood flow to the brain and
[22:40] coffee specifically. You know what I
[22:43] used to believe that coffee was
[22:44] basically giving me energy. Mhm. And
[22:46] then it was actually Dr. Daniel Amen,
[22:49] Dr. Daniel Amen that helped me
[22:50] understand what's actually going on.
[22:52] Right. He says it's just like blocking
[22:53] something.
[22:53] Yes. It's it's it's stopping a compound
[22:56] called adenosine working in your blood.
[22:58] And adenosine calms you down, lowers
[23:00] your heart rate, makes you feel tired
[23:01] and sleepy. And caffeine just gets in
[23:03] the way of that receptor and stops it
[23:05] working. So, a lot of people experience
[23:07] a kind of accumulation of adenosine.
[23:09] And so, while they're consuming coffee,
[23:11] their body's trying to put out
[23:12] adenosine, lower the heart rate, calm
[23:13] them down, it's not working. And
[23:15] eventually, your body clears the
[23:16] caffeine and you have a kind of crash
[23:18] afterwards, where you suddenly just feel
[23:19] extremely tired, because finally, your
[23:22] receptors are clear to receive the
[23:23] amount of adenosine that's in your
[23:25] blood. So, yeah, there's there's a kind
[23:27] of downside that way.
[23:29] Again, big doses tend to come with
[23:31] bigger crashes. You know, I think a lot
[23:32] of people now are pushing the idea that
[23:34] you should delay caffeine consumption a
[23:36] little bit later in the day. Uh
[23:38] I think Huberman is big on like no
[23:40] coffee for the first 90-120 minutes
[23:42] after waking to help sort of mitigate
[23:44] this effect and sort of clear out
[23:45] everything in your bloodstream before
[23:47] you start inhibiting
[23:48] adenosine
[23:49] uh reception. Is that why people get
[23:51] like
[23:52] crashes and stuff like that? Cuz a lot
[23:54] of drinks that are coming to market now
[23:56] that are like caffeine-based products
[23:58] are promising you that you won't get
[23:59] crashes and jitters. So, I was wondering
[24:01] if the Right. You see a lot of people
[24:02] pushing L-theanine in there as a
[24:04] product, which seems to have a
[24:05] synergistic effect and and help people
[24:07] feel a little calmer while sort of
[24:09] maintaining the benefits from that. I
[24:10] think the evidence is reasonable on
[24:11] that, but um
[24:13] again, those products tend to be a bit
[24:14] more sort of thoughtful about the amount
[24:16] of caffeine in them. And and I think the
[24:18] amount of caffeine is really kind of
[24:19] key. You you know, um
[24:21] you might have something with say 100 mg
[24:23] of caffeine. That's a That's a pretty
[24:24] acceptable dose. You might find that in
[24:26] a single espresso or in say a small cup
[24:28] of filter coffee. If you take a
[24:30] pre-workout, that's often 300 mg of
[24:32] caffeine. And so, there's all these ways
[24:34] that we can consume caffeine quite
[24:35] easily. Coca-Cola's pretty low. I think
[24:37] like 50-60 mg of caffeine in a can or a
[24:40] bottle of Coca-Cola.
[24:41] But, you can easily end up drinking
[24:44] 200-250 mg in coffee as well if it's a
[24:48] lower quality coffee. It tends to have
[24:49] more caffeine in it. If it's brewed as a
[24:51] sort of very strong filter coffee.
[24:53] It's just knowing how much you're taking
[24:55] that I think is kind of key.
[24:57] And why why does that matter? Is that
[24:59] again about sleep or is it just because
[25:01] if you take huge doses, then there'll be
[25:03] significant consequences like crashes
[25:05] and stuff like that? Yeah, I I think
[25:07] it's the the more you dose, the longer
[25:08] it's going to take to clear from your
[25:09] system, the more that will be in your
[25:11] blood come time to go to sleep. You
[25:12] know, I think the the lethal dose of of
[25:15] caffeine is really pretty high. A few
[25:16] people have got there, sadly, but it's
[25:18] it's it's a huge amount of coffee. It's
[25:20] usually done with like pills or other
[25:21] sort of forms of caffeine consumption.
[25:23] To do it with just cups of coffee is
[25:24] like
[25:25] I think 50 or 60 cups of coffee in a
[25:27] very short time frame. A very strong
[25:29] coffee would be about what what was
[25:30] necessary for a small person to hit a
[25:33] sort of caffeine toxicity. So, it's
[25:34] quite hard to do. And you you die of a
[25:36] cardiovascular issue or I think it's
[25:38] more unpleasant than that. Um as I
[25:40] recall. Yeah, I think it's a sort of
[25:42] neurological thing as well. It's not I
[25:43] don't think it's a good death, if I'm
[25:45] honest. Um not that you know, maybe
[25:47] there are good ones, but yeah, I don't
[25:48] think it's a good way to go.
[25:50] Coffee was originally a snack.
[25:52] Kind of. Kind of. Yeah, the coffee fruit
[25:55] was. So,
[25:56] uh it's kind of Most people don't think
[25:58] of coffee as fruit. And coffee fruit
[26:00] grows on these trees. They're usually
[26:01] about 2 m tall, full of these sort of
[26:04] ripe, red, cherry-looking things. We
[26:05] call them coffee cherries. They're about
[26:07] the size of a grape, but inside there's
[26:09] these two seeds kind of like a peanut
[26:11] facing each other. And they take up most
[26:12] of the fruit. Uh so, if you eat them,
[26:14] they're not very satisfying. They're
[26:15] mostly seed, bit of skin, and a little
[26:17] bit of kind of fruit flesh for want of a
[26:19] better term on the inside. But, it is
[26:21] delicious. It's kind of like a tangy
[26:22] watermelon taste. Coffee fruit's very
[26:24] delicious. I recommend if you can try
[26:26] it, definitely try it.
[26:27] Um caffeine exists in coffee primarily
[26:31] as an insect repellent.
[26:33] That's why the plant produces it, so
[26:35] that if an insect attacks the fruit, it
[26:36] gets a whack of caffeine and it's like,
[26:38] "Nope." And it leaves the fruit alone.
[26:40] So, that's its function in nature. Other
[26:42] plants produce caffeine. There's some
[26:43] interesting stuff about how uh caffeine
[26:46] improves the memory of bees, which helps
[26:47] with pollination. Uh that's kind of So,
[26:49] some of flowers produce caffeine uh and
[26:52] they think for that reason. But, the the
[26:54] caffeine in fruit in coffee tree
[26:56] specifically is basically insect
[26:57] repellent, which is why the higher you
[26:58] grow coffee, the less insects there are.
[27:01] Actually, the lower the levels of
[27:02] caffeine you tend to see the plant
[27:03] produce.
[27:04] You became a
[27:07] competitive coffee I don't know what you
[27:09] call it. Do you call it a player?
[27:10] Barista? Barista. You became a
[27:12] competitive coffee barista when you were
[27:13] what, 25 years old? Yeah, about that.
[27:15] Yeah. And then by 27, you're named the
[27:17] world barista champion. Yes.
[27:20] I I I think I went hard.
[27:21] Uh you know,
[27:23] it couple things. Yeah, what I really
[27:25] fell in love with it. You know what I
[27:26] mean? Like like I got into coffee at
[27:27] like 23. I didn't like coffee, didn't
[27:29] drink coffee.
[27:30] And then I read a book uh called The
[27:32] Devil's Cup that just
[27:34] Yeah, yeah, yeah. And it's a fun book.
[27:35] It's it's I don't know how well it's
[27:36] aged, but it's just travel writing. So,
[27:38] he traces the route that coffee took
[27:40] from Ethiopia to Yemen through kind of
[27:43] Turkey into the Mediterranean, how it
[27:44] spread around the world. And what got me
[27:46] about that book was like coffee's in
[27:47] every culture and it's different.
[27:49] Italian espresso culture is totally
[27:51] different to Scandinavian coffee
[27:52] culture, totally different to Australian
[27:54] coffee culture or, you know, what coffee
[27:56] culture is in the US. I was like, "Well,
[27:58] this drink's kind of interesting." Like
[27:59] it's a part of every society now.
[28:02] And then I started to drink it. I fell
[28:03] in love with it. And I just went deeper
[28:05] and deeper and deeper. And um yeah, in
[28:08] 2007, I won the world barista
[28:09] championships.
[28:10] So, if you're the former
[28:12] world barista champion Yeah.
[28:15] and I am a muggle
[28:17] which I am on coffee
[28:20] many things. What do I need to know What
[28:22] are the like the biggest myths and
[28:23] misconceptions about the drink of coffee
[28:25] that someone like me should be aware of?
[28:28] I'm trying to have better coffee. I'm
[28:29] not, you know, I'm not I'm never going
[28:31] to be like a coffee
[28:33] snob, but I'm I want to make I want
[28:36] nicer coffees that are good for me, that
[28:38] are healthy
[28:40] um and that taste great.
[28:42] What do I need to know? What are the
[28:43] misconceptions? There's there's probably
[28:45] less misconceptions now than ever, I
[28:47] would say. Like the the I think more
[28:49] people are coming around to the idea
[28:51] that coffee is not just a bitter,
[28:54] painful experience that you go through
[28:56] to get to the caffeine on the other
[28:57] side. Like it's a little trial each
[28:58] morning that we come to enjoy. I think
[29:00] people now understand more and more that
[29:02] there is an astonishing sort of range of
[29:05] flavor in coffee.
[29:07] 20 years ago, there wasn't. 40 years
[29:09] ago, there was no diversity of flavor in
[29:11] coffee. Coffee was brown and mean and
[29:13] miserable, and that was it. And now, you
[29:16] can have coffees that taste kind of
[29:17] fruity and floral. You can have coffees
[29:19] that taste earthy and rich or chocolatey
[29:21] or whatever else. Like so,
[29:22] I I think the thing that I want to kind
[29:24] of get out into the world is whatever
[29:25] you enjoy, I'm pretty sure there's
[29:26] something you could enjoy more, cuz
[29:28] there's so much out there. There's so
[29:30] much diversity. That's the first thing.
[29:32] I think that the second thing
[29:34] that I think people do understand is
[29:36] that
[29:38] you know, coffee's kind of made three
[29:39] times in a weird sort of way. Coffee's
[29:41] made at the farm level. And we would
[29:42] understand that with wine. Like a grower
[29:44] grows the the they make the wine at that
[29:46] point. And the producer of raw coffee
[29:49] carefully grows fruit, harvests the
[29:51] seeds, processes them carefully, and you
[29:53] can do a good job there or a bad job.
[29:54] And you've kind of got a peak quality
[29:56] moment there. Coffee is made again when
[29:58] you roast it. It's transformed
[29:59] completely from a kind of green
[30:01] plant-smelling thing into one of the
[30:03] most aromatic things in the world. And
[30:06] then it's made again when you make it.
[30:08] And at each of these stages, you can
[30:09] lose the quality completely. You can do
[30:11] a terrible job roasting it, make it
[30:12] taste awful. And you can do a terrible
[30:14] job brewing it and make it taste awful.
[30:16] And I think for a lot of people, coffee
[30:18] making was not particularly a skill.
[30:20] Coffee making was not complex or hard,
[30:22] and it shouldn't be complex, but it it's
[30:24] easy to get wrong. And I think you can
[30:26] be disappointed by a coffee that you've
[30:28] made without really understanding why.
[30:31] And a lot of what I'm interested in is
[30:32] like, okay, you don't need to understand
[30:34] everything about this process. You need
[30:36] to work out what are the most important
[30:37] things to understand and get those
[30:39] right, and then you're most of the way
[30:40] there.
[30:42] I don't think the the kind of average
[30:43] consumer is necessarily uninformed or
[30:46] confused, but potentially overwhelmed by
[30:48] choice still. Well, I I see a variance
[30:51] in the price, so I assume there must be
[30:53] a variance in what I'm putting in my
[30:55] mouth or and I'm I'm not sure what's
[30:57] marketing and what's, you know, quality.
[31:00] Yeah. Um I've brought five different
[31:03] cups of coffee Yes. from five local
[31:07] shops, outlets, etc. And I'm going to
[31:12] I don't know which ones are which. So my
[31:13] team got me these five cups of coffee.
[31:15] Jack is just bringing them in now. So,
[31:17] we have five different cups of coffee
[31:20] here from five different suppliers.
[31:21] You're smelling them all. When you're
[31:22] smelling them, is there
[31:23] anything you're noticing just from
[31:24] smelling them?
[31:25] Yeah, like um
[31:27] So, the one of the things I can assess
[31:28] pretty quickly is how darkly the
[31:30] coffee's been roasted. Yeah, when you
[31:31] have uh the longer you leave coffee in a
[31:33] roasting machine, the darker the color
[31:34] of the beans will be. And for a long
[31:36] time, I think people associated darker
[31:37] roast with with better coffee. Oilier
[31:39] beans looked kind of fancier. Whereas
[31:41] it's swung the other way, and lighter
[31:42] roasts now are considered
[31:44] better or more expensive cuz they kind
[31:46] of preserve more of the inherent
[31:48] qualities of the raw materials.
[31:50] Um so, these are all reasonably dark
[31:52] roasts just from smell. So, I can kind
[31:53] of the the smells I'm coming off there
[31:55] are more in the
[31:57] kind of heavier not burnt smells. Well,
[31:59] some of them actually smell a little bit
[32:00] burnt and kind of uh harsh.
[32:03] But uh nothing's particularly fruity or
[32:05] floral smelling. So, it's just for me a
[32:07] a kind of gauge of where things are
[32:08] going to be. So, there's going to be an
[32:10] expectation with that of bitterness.
[32:12] In in perfume shops, they give us
[32:14] sometimes coffee beans to smell to kind
[32:15] of try and wash out our
[32:17] Yeah, yeah. nasal senses, I guess.
[32:19] Does that work?
[32:20] Yeah, it totally does. We we we are
[32:23] It's why dogs sniff really fast. They
[32:24] You're looking for change. Your sense of
[32:25] smell works quite well on change.
[32:28] Uh and so, yes, you will get what's
[32:29] called suppression if you smell the same
[32:31] kind of smells over and over, they
[32:32] become less and less intense. It's why
[32:34] people end up wearing too much of the
[32:35] same perfume they've worn for 20 years
[32:37] cuz they can't literally can't smell it
[32:39] anymore. We can, they can't. And it's
[32:41] also evidenced when you go for a run and
[32:44] then cuz you can smell yourself, you
[32:47] have to ask your friend if you smell.
[32:49] Yeah, yeah, yeah.
[32:50] "Dave, do I stink?"
[32:51] Do I stink? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Cuz your
[32:52] brain your nose, I guess, is habituated
[32:53] to the There's a good hack if you ever
[32:55] want to break apart how it like
[32:56] something like Coca-Cola smells. If you
[32:58] take a component smell of Coca-Cola like
[33:00] lime, right? Cuz Coke just tastes of
[33:02] Coke to people, but it's actually lime,
[33:04] neroli, cinnamon, orange, nutmeg. And if
[33:06] you smell a bunch of cinnamon and then
[33:07] smell Coke, it smells weird cuz you've
[33:09] deleted cinnamon from Coca-Cola's like
[33:12] aroma profile. And you can do that with
[33:14] say lime smell, and it's like, "Whoa,
[33:16] I've thrown the balance out by kind of
[33:17] deleting that and suppressing that."
[33:19] It's a dull but fun kind of trick. The
[33:21] interesting thing with talking about
[33:22] Coca-Cola there is I remember those Coke
[33:24] and Pepsi studies from back in the day
[33:26] where
[33:27] people would rate Pepsi as tasting
[33:29] better unless they had it in a Coke can.
[33:32] So, when they could see the brand of the
[33:35] Coca-Cola, they rated it better, but
[33:36] when they could see it in a plastic cup,
[33:38] they rated Pepsi better. And I wonder
[33:40] here as well because you you don't know
[33:42] what these coffees are. You don't know
[33:43] what brands they are. And neither do I.
[33:45] Yeah.
[33:46] Um
[33:48] what the results are going to be. So,
[33:49] coffee number one, Yes.
[33:51] have a taste and a smell.
[33:59] So, that's a
[34:00] to me a pretty standard kind of
[34:01] commercial coffee taste.
[34:03] There's not uh a lot going on there.
[34:05] Relatively high in bitterness to me. I'd
[34:07] say that's a fairly bitter cup of
[34:08] coffee.
[34:09] Um and that's coming, I would say,
[34:11] mostly from roast. And it's not
[34:13] something's good or bad. It can be bad
[34:15] because it wasn't made that well that
[34:16] day. It could be bad because it was not
[34:18] great raw materials. And finding why is
[34:20] sometimes tricky. I wouldn't say it's
[34:22] particularly expensive cup of coffee.
[34:24] No, it didn't taste
[34:25] petrol station coffee.
[34:27] You can say that. I like that.
[34:28] I like you can say it. Yeah, I'm going
[34:29] to just lead you into saying terrible
[34:31] things, and I'll say nothing.
[34:32] Yeah, yeah. It It tasted like it came
[34:33] out of like a vending machine or
[34:35] something to me. Yeah, I'd be surprised
[34:36] if that was expensive. I'd be a little
[34:38] bit outraged if that was expensive. What
[34:40] would you rate that one out of five?
[34:43] Let's do 10.
[34:45] Um for me and what coffee can be, I'd
[34:48] say that's like a two. I would say that
[34:50] was a
[34:52] five out of 10.
[34:54] Yeah, I think that's I think it's kind
[34:55] of fair. I probably should be fair and
[34:56] call it a four out of 10 cuz I've tasted
[34:58] way worse than that. Let's go for number
[34:59] two.
[35:04] Now, this one will be a little bit more
[35:05] divisive for a lot of people cuz it's
[35:06] got a little bit more acidity in it.
[35:08] It's like a little bit of It would be my
[35:09] describe it sourness almost. Like it's a
[35:11] little zingy tasting.
[35:12] Generally, acidity is is associated with
[35:14] quality in coffee, which is a real
[35:16] sticking point for a lot of people.
[35:18] It's down to the fact that
[35:19] when you grow coffee, the higher you
[35:21] grow it, the slower it grows, the the
[35:23] sweeter it will ultimately be, but you
[35:25] do get more acidity in higher grown
[35:26] coffees.
[35:28] And some people don't want that in their
[35:29] coffee. They really don't want sour
[35:31] coffee. So, that tastes like it's got
[35:33] better raw materials in there for me
[35:34] than this one. Roasted a little bit
[35:36] lighter, brewed a little bit better. I'd
[35:38] like it to be a less kind of sour thing.
[35:41] It's a little bit old, obviously. It's
[35:42] sat around for a while. But I would say
[35:43] it's a for me, it's a better cup than
[35:45] this one.
[35:46] Like it's got a little It's got a little
[35:48] characteristic to it. Like it tastes of
[35:50] something that's a little bit fruity in
[35:51] there. Yeah, it's got a bit more of a
[35:53] personality, hasn't it? The aftertaste
[35:54] is a little bit something going on
[35:56] there. Mhm. And what do you rate that
[35:57] out of out of 10 in your preference?
[36:00] There's things I'd like to change about
[36:01] it. So, like six, seven, somewhere
[36:03] there. Like
[36:05] um but the it has, I think, better raw
[36:07] materials in it that that does appeal to
[36:09] me.
[36:10] Okay, I'm going to say six as well.
[36:12] Okay.
[36:13] I can reveal Mhm.
[36:19] that number one
[36:20] Yes.
[36:21] was McDonald's coffee.
[36:24] That's not surprising. That's That's
[36:26] kind of what I would have expected
[36:27] McDonald's to taste like. And it was
[36:29] that cup of coffee cost us £1.30.
[36:33] So, probably the cheapest thing here.
[36:35] Feel like McDonald's are aiming at the
[36:37] kind of cheaper end. Okay, your
[36:38] assessment now is probably fair. You did
[36:39] originally give it a two out of 10.
[36:42] I
[36:42] I feel not bad about that, but it's
[36:44] fine.
[36:44] There you go. So, um number two,
[36:48] you talked about there being sort of a
[36:49] bitterness to it and an
[36:51] like a
[36:51] Little bit more acidity in this.
[36:53] Taste like the raw materials are
[36:56] of a higher quality, certainly than
[36:57] number one.
[36:59] That is an independent local coffee
[37:01] shop.
[37:02] Yeah.
[37:03] And that cup of coffee is double the
[37:05] price of the McDonald's one at about £3
[37:08] per cup.
[37:10] Let's move on to number three. Okay.
[37:16] Very different taste.
[37:19] For me, it's more akin to number one
[37:21] than anything else. Like it's again,
[37:22] it's a darker roast. It's got a bit more
[37:24] body to it. Feels a bit fuller, a bit
[37:25] little bit richer, bit earthy, but at
[37:27] the same time for me.
[37:29] Um
[37:31] It's fuller, isn't it? It is a little
[37:33] bit fuller, and The first one was quite
[37:34] watery to me.
[37:35] Yeah, and that's in part going to be how
[37:36] it's made, in part how it's roasted, in
[37:38] part, you know, where it's from. Um
[37:41] price-wise, I wouldn't expect it to be
[37:42] much more than the McDonald's, if I'm
[37:44] honest. That that tastes again like a um
[37:49] Yeah, like a a reasonably commercial
[37:51] grade coffee. I wouldn't say it tastes
[37:53] bad. Roasted a little dark.
[37:56] Yeah, it's another kind of
[37:59] um
[38:00] Yeah, three, four, three, actually.
[38:01] There's something about the There's a
[38:02] sort of earthiness that I don't enjoy in
[38:04] coffee. Some people really like earthy
[38:06] flavors. I really don't, and that's just
[38:07] a preference thing.
[38:08] So, that is Costa Coffee. Interesting,
[38:11] yeah. Number four.
[38:16] You're doing a swirling, I can see. You
[38:18] can do doing a real I try I like to
[38:20] slurp usually. You do a lot of aeration,
[38:21] but down a microphone, it's brutal. Um
[38:25] Okay.
[38:26] So, that's um
[38:28] probably the darkest roast of all of
[38:29] them.
[38:30] I would say it doesn't taste like the
[38:32] raw materials are particularly bad, and
[38:34] so I could have a guess at who that's
[38:35] from.
[38:36] Um but it is definitely a darker roast.
[38:39] So, more bitterness. Again, quite full.
[38:42] Um
[38:43] So, you know, my gut says that's sort of
[38:45] Starbucks style thing to me.
[38:47] Try the last one as well then before we
[38:49] reveal. Before I get in trouble.
[38:55] That's kind of weird. Um
[38:57] It's a little bit vegetably to me, if
[38:58] I'm honest.
[38:59] Um
[39:01] It's not It's not my favorite. Again,
[39:02] it's it's within the world of coffee
[39:04] roasting, it's darker. It's not as dark
[39:05] as this one.
[39:06] Yeah, I like it probably less than this
[39:09] one here, so I'd probably be back to
[39:10] like a four again.
[39:12] So, number four, which was the one you
[39:14] gave five out of 10, is Pret. Is it?
[39:17] Yeah. Wow. And number
[39:20] three,
[39:22] sorry, number five, Yes. is Starbucks.
[39:24] Is it? Yeah. There you go.
[39:26] So, of the high street chains then, the
[39:29] coffee that you rated highest in our
[39:31] taste test,
[39:32] Yeah.
[39:33] was Pret. Yeah. Second was Costa,
[39:37] and then third was Starbucks. But I
[39:39] would say from my point of view, the
[39:41] variance between them surprisingly
[39:43] small. Yeah. They're not I don't think
[39:45] they taste particularly different to
[39:47] each other in a in a big way. I think
[39:49] the independent stood out a long way.
[39:51] From the others, right? It was clearly
[39:53] different. It has a lot more flavor and
[39:55] character going on, which is good, which
[39:57] is what you know, I I like about coffee.
[40:00] But um
[40:01] you know, I think the the chains
[40:05] the brand experience may be different,
[40:07] but at the root there's not a huge
[40:08] variance in the coffee experience.
[40:09] really I wouldn't really I mean that
[40:11] there are I can taste differences, but
[40:13] but it's not as a profound difference as
[40:16] the McDonald's taste and then the
[40:17] independent taste, which was really full
[40:19] of personality. Yep. And interestingly,
[40:21] the
[40:22] price variance is the independent cost
[40:24] £3, Costa is £3.20, Pret £3.20, and
[40:28] Starbucks is £3.60.
[40:30] Really? Yeah. It always blew my mind for
[40:32] years and years. I'd work with loads of
[40:35] like essentially startup coffee shop
[40:36] owners. And their mindset would be, "Oh,
[40:38] I need to be like the same kind of price
[40:40] as Starbucks or maybe a little bit
[40:41] more." And you're like, "What are you
[40:42] possibly thinking? That you have the
[40:44] same kind of supply chain that they do?
[40:46] That you're going to make You know, they
[40:47] make great margins. You You're not
[40:49] buying 20 million paper cups a week."
[40:52] Mhm. You know what I mean? Like nothing
[40:53] makes sense, but people feel very tied
[40:55] to this idea that
[40:57] you know the price is set by the chains.
[41:00] And I think that's changed now and and
[41:02] people are more comfortable charging
[41:03] above that. But for a long time, people
[41:05] were terrified to charge more than the
[41:06] chains even if the product was
[41:08] noticeably better.
[41:09] And you know a real frustration for me.
[41:12] And and that's why I'm always going to
[41:13] bat for independents because it's not
[41:15] like you can spend more, you can get a
[41:17] better product by someone who cares
[41:18] deeply about it. And and and I think
[41:20] it's There's a risk in going to an
[41:22] independent if you're traveling and you
[41:23] know, Starbucks the model is built on I
[41:26] know where to queue, who to talk to,
[41:28] where to stand after I place an order.
[41:30] What kind of food I can get there? It's
[41:32] very safe. If I dropped you in Moscow
[41:34] and told you to get coffee, you'd go to
[41:35] a chain cuz you know how it works and
[41:37] you get it done. Independents feel like
[41:39] a risk, but the reward I think is often
[41:41] there for sure. And there's more
[41:42] independents and they're better than
[41:43] ever now. So
[41:45] you know, I'm I'm very pro independent
[41:47] coffee shops.
[41:48] I want to talk to you about one of our
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[43:41] You You have a quite a lot of
[43:42] businesses.
[43:45] I read somewhere that you'd started I
[43:47] think 11 or 12 different companies.
[43:49] Getting on for that I think at this
[43:50] point now. What are What are those
[43:52] businesses? Um
[43:53] It's a good question. My first business
[43:56] I started back in 2008 just after I won
[43:58] the World Barista Championships,
[44:00] which is a coffee roasting company.
[44:02] And that still is I suppose my primary
[44:05] business today even if I don't run that
[44:07] anymore. And there's an
[44:08] amazing MD in there. I just sort of
[44:11] try not to start fires and be useful
[44:13] where I can do.
[44:15] Over the years, we've started other
[44:16] things, distribution companies kind of
[44:18] importing stuff or we have a coffee
[44:20] shop. We've done training businesses,
[44:21] kind of education, that kind of stuff.
[44:23] Equipment businesses, kind of the big
[44:25] commercial espresso machines in there.
[44:28] I started a coffee coffee recruitment
[44:30] business
[44:31] that I ultimately sold a little while
[44:33] back.
[44:34] I'm trying to think of other things. I
[44:35] started a magazine. I've started a bunch
[44:37] of other stuff. And then this, you know
[44:38] getting into YouTube that's become a
[44:40] weird in and of itself that I didn't
[44:42] plan to start, but is now a kind of
[44:44] all-consuming business.
[44:45] With With the YouTube business, you must
[44:48] have learned a lot about what people are
[44:50] interested in as it relates to coffee.
[44:51] Cuz you'll see you talk about certain
[44:53] things and people just seem to gravitate
[44:55] towards those subject matters. Yep. What
[44:57] What is it that people care so much
[44:58] about as it relates to coffee in your
[44:59] audience care about? That's a great
[45:01] question. Because I think coming into
[45:03] this, I I for years and years, as people
[45:05] did back then, wrote a blog. And I wrote
[45:07] a blog to sort of share information
[45:08] about coffee cuz it was great for me to
[45:10] learn and also there's a benefit to
[45:11] sharing. I think if you give, things
[45:13] come back to you in the world.
[45:14] And then people stopped reading blogs
[45:16] and I started making videos. And I think
[45:19] having worked in the coffee industry for
[45:20] 20 years, we had tried to talk to people
[45:22] about coffee and nothing really hit. And
[45:25] people weren't really interested. They
[45:26] didn't like the way we talked about it.
[45:28] And suddenly YouTube, I found a way to
[45:29] connect with people. And it turns out we
[45:31] vastly underestimated how broad and how
[45:34] deep people's interest in coffee is.
[45:36] Yeah, people care about which machine
[45:38] should I buy? And that remains a
[45:39] question that I will be asked I think
[45:41] for the end of my days. Excuse me, so
[45:43] which machine? Yeah, yeah, yeah. No, I'm
[45:45] genuinely want to know which machine I
[45:46] should buy because
[45:47] Well, I don't know. Like it depends what
[45:48] your needs are. Like what's your budget?
[45:50] Like what do you want to spend? What
[45:51] kind of experience do you want? Right?
[45:52] Like But I love an espresso and I want I
[45:56] like speed and I want
[45:58] I mean I'm like everybody. I want it to
[46:00] be super fast and really nice.
[46:02] So the the problem with espresso
[46:03] specifically Okay. is that good espresso
[46:06] is a little bit tricky. And it means to
[46:09] get really great espresso at home, you
[46:11] kind of want to have it as a hobby. And
[46:13] if that does not appeal to you
[46:15] then don't get an espresso machine for
[46:16] home because you will spend a ton of
[46:18] money and you I can get you the best
[46:20] machine in the world, put it on your
[46:21] counter. After a week, you'll be like,
[46:23] "I just can't be bothered. I don't want
[46:25] to do this." And I think suddenly the
[46:28] £2.50, £3 that the independent business
[46:30] charges you, you're like, "Oh, that's
[46:31] great. I will happily pay you to go
[46:33] through the pain of making espresso."
[46:35] Because it's messy, it's slow, it's
[46:37] convoluted, it's tricky, it's
[46:38] frustrating. And as a hobby, really
[46:40] rewarding, but as a way to caffeinate
[46:42] yourself in the morning
[46:43] not the best. What about an Americano?
[46:46] Like a great Americano.
[46:47] a great filter coffee? Yeah. There's
[46:50] There's definitely options there and and
[46:51] you can buy
[46:53] a a machine and grinder and spend
[46:56] Well, you can get an incredible setup
[46:58] for like £500. Bearing in mind espresso
[47:00] machines, an incredible setup will be
[47:03] two, three, four thousand pounds. If
[47:05] you're looking at the like the the top
[47:06] end of stuff. You can go all the way up
[47:08] to I could spend 10 10, 15 thousand
[47:10] pounds of your money if you let me. Uh
[47:11] uh
[47:12] If that's that's where the budget sort
[47:14] of top out in in home espresso. But it's
[47:16] kind of at that point it's like home
[47:17] home audio where people just they want
[47:19] the best possible thing and if they have
[47:21] the budget, that market exists. I'm
[47:23] moving into a new house, so I'm like
[47:25] right in the moment now of thinking
[47:27] about how to solve this morning coffee
[47:29] problem.
[47:30] So I'm trying to find something I can
[47:31] maybe install.
[47:33] And and the thing with me is I don't I
[47:35] ain't got a huge amount of time. So I
[47:36] kind of would just want an iPad. I
[47:38] Ideally, I'd just speak to it and say,
[47:40] "Please give me coffee." And it would
[47:42] just come out, you know. Yeah, we're not
[47:44] there yet. Okay. We're not there yet.
[47:45] The coffee industry is improving and the
[47:47] automation side is improving. By and
[47:48] large, this sort of super automatic
[47:50] stuff where you just push a button and
[47:52] everything happens and coffee comes out.
[47:54] There's a bunch of dull technical
[47:55] challenges that mean they can't make as
[47:57] good a coffee as you could do if you
[47:59] were willing to do a little bit of work.
[48:00] I thought so. And that's I I'm not going
[48:02] to lie to you. That's just the truth of
[48:03] it. They're getting better and there are
[48:05] more and more solutions.
[48:06] Um
[48:07] And there's some great high kind of
[48:09] convenience
[48:11] solutions to coffee.
[48:13] But
[48:14] if you want to have fresh coffee made at
[48:16] home and it's be as good as possible
[48:18] I'm going to ask you to do tiny bits of
[48:19] work. Just just pour beans in a grinder,
[48:22] put grinder ground coffee into a little
[48:23] machine and push a button. Which
[48:25] machine?
[48:26] Well, it depends on your aesthetic at
[48:28] this point then, right? Like there's
[48:29] some really nice filter coffee. It
[48:31] depends how much coffee you need. Like
[48:32] how much how much you need in the
[48:33] morning? I've got to say I've got £100,
[48:36] £200 to solve this coffee problem. In
[48:38] total? In total.
[48:40] To for the machinery.
[48:42] Okay, so the bad news
[48:44] is that
[48:46] Good bad news.
[48:47] Coffee grinders are the the right
[48:49] investment, right?
[48:51] They are more important than the
[48:53] machine. You can give me a 20 quid
[48:55] filter coffee brewer from Amazon, but if
[48:57] you give me a decent grinder, I can get
[48:59] some pretty good coffee out of it. Oh,
[49:00] really?
[49:00] If you give me a 20 pound coffee grinder
[49:02] and a five grand machine, I can make
[49:04] pretty terrible coffee.
[49:06] Average coffee at best, right? So the
[49:08] grinder, how how it cuts the coffee
[49:11] essentially, you'll often see people
[49:12] have little whirly blade grinders. You
[49:14] push a button, it spins madly. Just
[49:15] smashes it to pieces, but there's no
[49:17] real control of the size of the pieces.
[49:19] So some will be tiny particles, others
[49:22] will be big rocks.
[49:23] Really hard to evenly brew tiny pieces
[49:26] the same way you'd brew a massive piece
[49:27] of coffee. And so you get a kind of
[49:29] bitter, sour coffee as a result of it.
[49:31] Good coffee grinders have spinning discs
[49:33] inside that cut to a specific size. So
[49:35] all the coffee is pretty much the same
[49:36] size mostly, and that's much easier to
[49:39] work with, but they cost more money cuz
[49:40] they need better motors and nicer
[49:42] cutting discs and that kind of stuff.
[49:44] Not crazy amounts, but
[49:47] yeah, you're looking at like
[49:49] uh at least 100 to 200 pounds for a good
[49:52] grinder. Okay. And I'd love to tell you
[49:53] it wasn't the the case, and grinders are
[49:55] getting It used to be like 500 pounds
[49:56] for a good grinder at home. It's coming
[49:58] down all the time.
[50:00] Uh but yeah, I'd say I'd need like 150.
[50:03] Okay. Maybe off you. Okay.
[50:05] I can get you a really great grinder
[50:06] that should last a lifetime and make you
[50:08] cafe quality coffee.
[50:10] It's not a It's not a you know, it just
[50:11] couldn't do it 500 times a day the way a
[50:13] coffee shop's one could.
[50:15] But that's where you're going to spend
[50:15] money. And then, you could just get a
[50:17] simple pour-over cone
[50:19] a little and just pour water
[50:21] uh onto coffee on top of a mug, and life
[50:23] be really easy that way. Going back to
[50:25] this this point though about what you've
[50:26] discovered about people's interest in
[50:28] coffee from your YouTube journey. The
[50:29] first thing you said there was people
[50:30] want to know what machines and stuff,
[50:31] and then I interrupted, so please do
[50:33] No, no. I mean, that for for me, the
[50:34] strategy initially was So, I I I My
[50:37] bigger umbrella goal of YouTube is that
[50:39] I want people to enjoy coffee more for a
[50:42] bunch of reasons, and I want them to see
[50:43] it as a more valuable piece of their
[50:45] life. So, that at some point, they might
[50:46] be willing to spend a bit more money on
[50:47] it. That's That's the sort of top line
[50:49] goal. What I'm then trying to do is find
[50:51] them. And reviews are a good way to sort
[50:53] of find people. Someone will be like,
[50:55] "Which is the best espresso machine to
[50:56] buy?" They find me.
[50:58] If I entertain them,
[51:00] uh if I build trust with them, I hope
[51:02] they'll keep watching. And then, I can
[51:04] take them on a journey
[51:05] uh into coffee, and I can open up new
[51:08] kind of avenues of exploration for them.
[51:10] That's the kind of goal. That's what I'm
[51:11] trying to do.
[51:12] So, in part, we do that through machine
[51:14] reviews and equipment reviews, in part
[51:16] through kind of techniques. If you got a
[51:17] French press, cafetiere, what is the
[51:19] best way to use that? I want to be there
[51:21] to help you do that. But it's it's a lot
[51:23] of it's about building trust so that
[51:24] down the line, we can go and talk about
[51:26] something totally different, and you'll
[51:28] listen, and you'll trust me. And and
[51:30] that sort of trust is super important to
[51:32] me in in terms of like building an
[51:33] audience. Um
[51:35] because coffee has this really future.
[51:38] Uh climate change is bad for coffee,
[51:41] really really bad. And to some extent,
[51:43] maybe we don't deserve to have coffee
[51:45] after we've ruined the planet. I'd hear
[51:47] that argument. But as temperatures
[51:49] increase around the world,
[51:51] coffee needs cooler temperatures to
[51:53] grow.
[51:54] And the only way you can sort of get
[51:55] cooler temperatures as the world heats
[51:56] up is to go higher up the mountain. It's
[51:58] already mountain grown. It's already
[51:59] growing at
[52:00] 1,500 m, 2,000 m. The problem with
[52:03] mountains is that the higher you go,
[52:04] there's generally less of the mountain.
[52:06] You know what I mean? There's less area
[52:07] around the world that can grow specialty
[52:09] coffee, grow great quality coffee.
[52:12] So, the future is
[52:14] there'll be less great coffee in the
[52:15] future. Cheap coffee will be around for
[52:17] a while. It doesn't need the same kind
[52:19] of conditions, but great coffee has a
[52:21] difficult future ahead of it. And there
[52:24] are millions of people whose livelihoods
[52:26] depend on that.
[52:27] And that's
[52:28] it's not a great system, so to speak.
[52:30] It's like we There's a lot of problems
[52:31] with how coffee production
[52:33] uh
[52:33] is incredibly unfair towards the people
[52:35] who produce it.
[52:37] But if if we are to remain customers, we
[52:38] need to be comfortable spending a little
[52:40] bit more on coffee in the future.
[52:42] And if you enjoy coffee, spending an
[52:44] extra pound a bag, 2 pounds a bag, if
[52:46] you really enjoy it, fine.
[52:48] No problem at all. You know what I mean?
[52:50] I will keep coffee as a part of my life.
[52:52] But But
[52:53] that that's kind of one of the
[52:54] motivating factors for me. I want more
[52:56] people to enjoy it just cuz I like
[52:58] bringing pleasure to people. Like I
[53:00] That's great. You know what I mean? But
[53:02] in the future, I want coffee consumers
[53:04] to still be there through the challenges
[53:06] that coffee production faces.
[53:09] What about these pods?
[53:11] The coffee pod machines that a lot of
[53:12] people are using and that are getting
[53:14] more and more popular. Wake up in the
[53:15] morning, grab the pod, whack it in
[53:17] there, boom, hit button.
[53:19] Out comes coffee. Yeah. Um
[53:22] the best analogy I can make is that
[53:24] they're a microwave meal. And microwave
[53:26] meals
[53:27] are what they are. They are of a
[53:28] quality. They are super convenient.
[53:31] There's a fair amount of waste attached
[53:33] to them. And um you could probably do
[53:35] better with a little bit of effort, and
[53:38] it would cost you less. Do you Do you
[53:40] use those pods? Not really. Not the Like
[53:42] I There are some and they're they're
[53:44] kind of
[53:45] separate and different. I I don't want
[53:46] to get into it right now. Um
[53:48] I think a lot of the sort of small
[53:50] Nespresso kind of style capsule ones are
[53:52] very popular.
[53:54] I just wish they were a bit more
[53:55] recyclable. There's a bit of waste
[53:56] associated with those. But ultimately,
[53:58] they're very expensive. Actually, for
[53:59] what you're you're paying a lot of money
[54:02] for that, and you're paying for the
[54:03] convenience, I think. For the same price
[54:06] per kilo, you could buy some of the best
[54:08] coffees in the world for what you're
[54:09] spending on a capsule cuz you're you're
[54:11] spending money for 5 g of coffee, cuz
[54:13] that's what it is. Uh
[54:16] but the convenience is is very strong,
[54:17] and it's been so success I can't argue
[54:19] with convenience. We love a little
[54:20] convenience.
[54:22] But the possibility of of quality
[54:25] is far greater once you move beyond
[54:27] those.
[54:28] You know what I mean? Like anytime we go
[54:29] convenience, we have to sacrifice
[54:31] something.
[54:32] And it's usually quality. And it's
[54:34] usually value.
[54:36] Ultimately, we're going to pay more for
[54:37] that convenience.
[54:39] So,
[54:39] I get it. I get not wanting to make
[54:41] espresso, but wanting something like
[54:43] espresso in the mornings.
[54:45] They've really succeeded in sort of
[54:46] filling that market.
[54:48] But they are to me still a kind of
[54:50] microwave meal.
[54:51] Is there any culture that doesn't drink
[54:53] have coffee?
[54:55] No, everyone drinks Everyone drinks
[54:57] coffee. People have tried to ban it a
[54:59] few times. It was seen as a kind of
[55:00] seditious drink that's kind of uh So,
[55:03] from a political perspective, uh they
[55:04] tried to ban it in the UK briefly. I
[55:05] think
[55:07] King James, I want to say, tried to ban
[55:08] it. Doesn't last very long. We tend to
[55:09] get pretty grumpy if you try and ban it.
[55:11] Uh
[55:12] It had a sort of They asked the Pope to
[55:14] ban it at one point, and he was like,
[55:15] "No, it's great." And so, he he didn't
[55:17] do that. That was hundreds of years ago.
[55:18] But yeah, coffee
[55:20] was often linked to uh politics in the
[55:23] early days. So, London
[55:25] was the greatest coffee drinking city in
[55:27] the world for a while.
[55:29] From 16
[55:30] late 1600s, coffee just comes here to
[55:33] the city of London and takes over.
[55:35] Because up until that point, we were
[55:37] drinking a lot of weak beer. That was
[55:39] the sort of safe uh high-calorie, high B
[55:42] vitamin kind of drink that we drunk. And
[55:44] we were all a little bit drunk most of
[55:45] the time from drinking a couple liters
[55:47] or 3 liters of weak beer a day.
[55:50] Coffee arrives, and it's this safe drink
[55:52] that is totally the opposite to beer. It
[55:54] is stimulating, and it transforms London
[55:57] society of the time.
[55:59] And we get obsessed with it. Coffee
[56:00] houses appear everywhere. There is the
[56:03] story that in the square mile in the
[56:05] early 1700s, there were 2,000 coffee
[56:06] shops. Now, that's that's excessive. It
[56:08] wasn't that many. It was probably
[56:10] but it was several hundred.
[56:11] Like they were everywhere, and they
[56:13] quickly diversified and sort of
[56:15] specialized into specific things. And
[56:17] so, uh very famously, Lloyd's of London,
[56:20] the insurance broker, started as a
[56:22] coffee shop called Lloyd's of London,
[56:24] and people did business at the tables.
[56:26] Those became offices. And to this day,
[56:28] runners in there are still called
[56:29] waiters.
[56:30] And so, that just happened to specialize
[56:32] in shipping insurance, that coffee
[56:34] house. Others specialized in politics.
[56:36] Others specialized in literature. They
[56:39] became known as penny universities
[56:40] because you could pay a penny to get
[56:42] into a London coffee house, and you
[56:43] would gain the education just from
[56:44] listening to people talk of a university
[56:47] degree. And so, they were these
[56:48] incredible places for a while.
[56:50] Uh eventually, our colonial interest
[56:52] shifted to tea, and the coffee house
[56:54] went into the decline in sort of 1700s,
[56:57] 1800s. But for about 100 years, London
[57:00] was the most incredible coffee drinking
[57:02] city in the world.
[57:05] When coffee came to the UK, Mhm. and
[57:07] when it came to the Western world, was
[57:08] there a productivity boom? Yeah, 100%.
[57:11] Uh huge change in culture. Massive
[57:14] because we were no longer drunk all the
[57:15] time.
[57:16] Um So, yeah, it arrives in London, I
[57:17] think, in 1652 is the the first coffee
[57:20] shop that's right just near Bank tube
[57:22] station. You can see a little blue
[57:23] plaque on the wall if you go looking for
[57:24] it there.
[57:25] Uh yeah, we we absolutely fell in love
[57:27] with it. It became a part of industry,
[57:29] culture, politics, everything. Like it
[57:31] it supercharged the nation. There are
[57:33] people who argue that uh you know, we we
[57:35] awake from this drunken stupor, and then
[57:38] are like, "Well, what's the rest of the
[57:39] world got to offer?" And we go and
[57:40] become the colonial, you know, horror
[57:42] show that we were after that. And you
[57:44] can blame coffee for that. But uh that's
[57:45] a bit of a stretch. But it it was a
[57:48] massive shift in society.
[57:51] I I think for most of my life assumed
[57:52] that tea didn't have caffeine in it. I
[57:54] don't know why. I just always thought
[57:55] coffee, caffeine. I think cuz they sound
[57:57] similar. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[57:58] Yeah. But then I I I heard at one point
[58:00] that tea also has caffeine in it as
[58:02] well.
[58:03] bit. Nowhere near the quantities uh of
[58:05] coffee. But you know, if you're drinking
[58:07] 10, 12 cups of tea a day, it's probably
[58:08] worth paying attention to how much is in
[58:10] there. And how you steep your tea and
[58:12] all that kind of stuff will have an
[58:13] impact on how much caffeine's in there.
[58:15] And what's your What's your favorite cup
[58:17] of coffee? You get must get asked this
[58:18] all the time.
[58:19] get asked this all the time, and I
[58:20] still, after 20 years, don't have a
[58:21] great answer. I drink a lot of filter
[58:23] coffee. Uh So, what is filter coffee?
[58:25] So, filter coffee is not from an
[58:27] espresso machine. So, it's going to be
[58:29] brewed either in a filter coffee machine
[58:31] or by hand. You'll see a lot of people
[58:32] pouring water over coffee.
[58:34] Uh the drink is going to be the same
[58:35] kind of strength as Americano, but it's
[58:36] a sort of It's a It's a weaker thing.
[58:38] I'm I'm not obsessed with espresso the
[58:40] same way. I want a cup of black coffee.
[58:42] Cuz I want to take my time.
[58:44] Because as you taste a cup of coffee, if
[58:46] it's a great cup of coffee, as it cools
[58:47] down, it's its flavor kind of opens up
[58:50] and becomes really interesting and
[58:51] complex. And so, I like the idea that I
[58:53] can sit for 10, 15 minutes, and if I
[58:55] want to, have a really enjoyable kind of
[58:58] journey of flavor.
[58:59] That for me is is the the kind of
[59:01] great bit about coffee. Yeah, I'll drink
[59:03] an espresso sometimes if I want a little
[59:05] short shot of something tasty. But But
[59:07] the idea that I can, if I want, have 10,
[59:10] 15 minutes to myself to enjoy this thing
[59:12] and see some benefits afterwards. That's
[59:14] a wonderful thing. So, I like coffees
[59:17] from all over the world.
[59:19] I feel like I'm forcing myself into a
[59:21] tiny space here. If I could only drink
[59:23] coffee from one country for the rest of
[59:25] my life, it would probably be coffees
[59:26] from Colombia.
[59:27] They just have a real spread of flavors,
[59:29] but really just incredible coffees come
[59:31] from that part of the world. But there's
[59:33] amazing coffee from just just about
[59:34] every producing country. If you're
[59:36] within
[59:37] the Tropic of Cancer and the Tropic of
[59:40] Capricorn, that kind of belt around the
[59:41] earth, then you can probably grow coffee
[59:44] above certain altitudes. And almost
[59:45] every country that is in that band does
[59:48] grow coffee. So there's a lot of
[59:49] different places that grow it. And
[59:52] there's going to be great coffee in all
[59:53] of those places. And there'll be cheap
[59:54] and low quality coffee in all those
[59:55] places, too. But yeah, there's
[59:58] the range that the spread is massive. Do
[60:00] you pull sugar and milk into your
[60:02] coffee? I don't use sugar and milk. And
[60:05] I get why people do, because most coffee
[60:08] benefits from sugar and milk. Milk is a
[60:10] very
[60:11] It has a weird quirk. It's a bitter
[60:12] blocker. It inhibits bitterness. So when
[60:14] you put it into a harsh bitter cup of
[60:16] coffee, it does soften that. We of
[60:18] course like sweet things. I think one
[60:20] thing to note when it comes to all of
[60:22] the studies that look at coffee and is
[60:23] coffee healthy, they'll be like, yes,
[60:25] coffee's healthy if you drink it black.
[60:28] And if you're putting a lot of cream and
[60:30] a lot of sugar into your coffee, there
[60:31] are the health benefits very quickly
[60:33] taken away. You know what I mean? It's
[60:35] it's not quote unquote as healthy a
[60:36] drink. For me, putting milk or sugar
[60:39] into coffee kind of hides the flavors a
[60:41] little bit. And so I I I want to taste
[60:43] it without. I get why people want to put
[60:45] it in there. I don't have an issue with
[60:46] people sweetening or adding a little
[60:48] milk or cream. But
[60:50] you kind of lose
[60:52] some of what makes coffee so
[60:54] interesting.
[60:57] In
[60:59] this book, Yes.
[61:00] make the best coffee at home. One of the
[61:02] points you make is quite surprising. You
[61:04] say that once a
[61:06] Cuz I used to think that coffee was a
[61:09] shelf staple. Mhm. I used to think you
[61:13] get it,
[61:14] you can grind it, you can put it in the
[61:15] cupboard, and it kind of lasts forever.
[61:17] Yeah. And it doesn't change.
[61:19] You make the case that I'm wrong. It is
[61:21] sadly not the case. It's fresh food,
[61:24] unfortunately. The the challenge coffee
[61:26] has is that we just can't see it change.
[61:28] If I dice up an apple and I leave it for
[61:31] a couple of hours, you can see the
[61:32] change in it. It's staling in a bunch of
[61:34] different ways. When you smash coffee
[61:36] into little pieces, when you grind it to
[61:37] fine powder, you kick start a bunch of
[61:40] chemistry that you can't undo. And some
[61:42] of that's oxidation, where oxygen
[61:44] transforms things and turns fats a
[61:45] little bit rancid over time. You lose a
[61:48] bunch of the aromas locked inside the
[61:50] bean. It just gets less interesting
[61:51] tasting. If you want the best experience
[61:54] for coffee, grinding it fresh is is the
[61:56] way to do it. Also, grinding coffee is
[61:58] one of the like the best smells in the
[62:00] world. Why would you not have that as
[62:01] part of your life? And so yeah, coffee
[62:04] is fresh food. And if you treat it like
[62:06] fresh food, it tastes way better. How
[62:08] long does it take to decay?
[62:10] Yeah, it's a good question.
[62:11] I had it in the in the cupboard, you
[62:12] know,
[62:14] Once you grind coffee,
[62:16] most people would easily detect a
[62:19] difference a day later. And and they
[62:21] would say it tasted notably worse 2 days
[62:23] later.
[62:24] And so buying pre-ground coffee is
[62:26] buying high convenience, but the cost is
[62:29] you never got to experience how good
[62:31] that coffee was at the moment it was
[62:32] ground.
[62:33] So if I buy it in supermarkets,
[62:34] Yeah. it's going to taste awful compared
[62:36] to Yeah, you just coffee shop.
[62:39] yeah, you get a lot less for your money
[62:40] in terms of flavor. It will have
[62:42] degraded. They can gas flush it and
[62:44] they'll you know, pack the bags with
[62:45] inert gases and stuff. But the minute
[62:47] you open that bag,
[62:49] it's on its way out. And it will happen
[62:50] really quickly. And so
[62:52] the downside is
[62:54] coffee grinders cost a little bit of
[62:55] money, and they take up a little bit of
[62:57] space, and they're another step in the
[62:58] morning between you and getting the
[63:00] caffeine in in the system. I understand
[63:01] that. But if you want the best value for
[63:04] money,
[63:05] a bag of beans costs the same as a bag
[63:07] of ground coffee, even though the ground
[63:08] coffee has more cost in terms of
[63:10] manufacture.
[63:11] But the value of the beans is just way
[63:14] higher. It just tastes way better. And
[63:16] so having a grinder lets you get better
[63:18] value for money in the coffee that you
[63:19] buy going forwards.
[63:21] What do you think the future of coffee
[63:23] is? We've talked a little bit about the
[63:24] history of coffee. But where where do do
[63:25] you think the coffee industry and public
[63:28] opinion around coffee goes from here?
[63:32] You know, I think we've fallen pretty
[63:34] deeply in love with coffee in a
[63:35] different kind of way in the last few
[63:36] years. I think the the pandemic
[63:40] caused a seismic shift in coffee
[63:42] consumption around the world. People had
[63:44] grown used to going out to coffee shops,
[63:47] drinking good quality coffee, and and
[63:49] that was part of their lives. And when
[63:51] the pandemic happened and people
[63:52] couldn't do that, the growth in coffee
[63:55] equipment at home was astronomical. This
[63:57] was This was something people wanted to
[63:59] invest in and were not willing to let go
[64:00] of. I I wasn't really sure pre-pandemic,
[64:03] as you said, how much do people really
[64:05] love coffee? I'm like, well, they like
[64:06] it a lot, but you know, maybe they'd let
[64:08] it go if it got too expensive. But in
[64:10] that moment where we took it away,
[64:12] people like, absolutely not. Coffee
[64:14] stays. And and and that was really
[64:16] heartening to me. And that was all over
[64:18] the world. Every every market, every
[64:19] country I spoke to people, they saw the
[64:21] same thing. Huge interest in coffee at
[64:23] home. So I feel good about that. I feel
[64:25] like the promise of specialty coffee
[64:27] where we where we said,
[64:29] you know, the the promise of specialty
[64:31] coffee where we said, coffee can be
[64:32] better. It's a bit more expensive, but
[64:34] it tastes more interesting. People have
[64:36] enjoyed that and found that to be true.
[64:38] So right now, I feel very good about
[64:41] coffee consumption from a
[64:43] longevity point of view for the
[64:44] industry. People want to keep drinking
[64:46] coffee.
[64:47] Like I said, the the challenge on one
[64:50] side remains coffee production's future.
[64:53] It's going to be increasingly difficult
[64:55] to grow great quality coffee in the
[64:56] future with climate change. We're
[64:58] already seeing the impact of that. Now,
[65:00] which is rainfall patterns, all sorts of
[65:02] other stuff, is making coffee harder to
[65:03] grow. That's going to put the price of
[65:05] it up in the future for the high quality
[65:06] stuff.
[65:07] But for a while,
[65:09] I think it will sort of stay. I don't
[65:11] think we're willing to let go. I think
[65:12] we are going to be be paying more
[65:14] attention to caffeine in the future. And
[65:15] I think that's a good thing. I would
[65:17] encourage people to pay more attention
[65:18] to caffeine in the future. And that may
[65:20] decrease our consumption overall. And
[65:22] I'm also okay with that, too. I'd rather
[65:24] people spent good money on two great
[65:26] cups of coffee a day than just five
[65:29] average ones just to get them through.
[65:30] Like I'm okay with lowering consumption
[65:33] and increasing the quality of it. That
[65:35] works very well for me.
[65:37] Because I think it will bring more
[65:38] pleasure to people ultimately. They
[65:39] enjoy the coffee they drink more. It's
[65:41] not this mindless cheap thing they
[65:42] endlessly consume. It's a moment of
[65:44] pleasure. And I think it can be this
[65:46] moment of absolute delight and interest
[65:48] and pleasure. If you were looking for
[65:49] your moment of pleasure walking through
[65:51] the streets of London,
[65:52] Yes.
[65:53] where would you turn? Which shop would
[65:56] you go into? I mean, we're talking about
[65:57] coffee here when I say moment of
[65:58] pleasure. Just so just in case you you
[66:01] thought something else.
[66:02] No. Um
[66:04] Um where would you turn? Cuz I'm walking
[66:06] through London all the time. And as a
[66:07] muggle, I look up and I go, okay, all
[66:09] these logos, they're all saying coffee.
[66:11] Where should I be? Should I be going for
[66:12] a random independent and rolling the
[66:14] dice? Should I be going to a chain?
[66:16] What's your POV? London has some of the
[66:18] best independent coffee shops in the
[66:19] world.
[66:20] You know, like and that's true of most
[66:21] major cities now. Like incredible coffee
[66:23] is is very available now if you know
[66:25] where to look. And I guarantee that's
[66:26] the tricky bit, knowing in advance. By
[66:29] and large though, there is enough
[66:30] written about on the internet. If you
[66:31] search best specialty coffee in whatever
[66:34] city, you'll find a a great list of 20
[66:37] that will be a good experience. It might
[66:38] be a bit more expensive, but it will be
[66:41] I think a better coffee experience. I
[66:42] get I buy coffee from chains when I have
[66:44] to. I get that. But given the choice, I
[66:47] would love to go and visit an
[66:48] independent business. See someone's
[66:50] expression, you know what I mean?
[66:51] Someone's aesthetics, someone's vibes,
[66:52] someone's experience. It can be
[66:54] different. And why wouldn't I want to
[66:55] explore different and new? So I think
[66:58] it's just an opportunity for discovery.
[67:00] Loads of like bands that tour the world
[67:02] get obsessed with coffee, because it's a
[67:04] great way to explore a city. It's a
[67:06] great way to kind of find the new
[67:07] neighborhoods and just check places out
[67:09] and just have something fun and
[67:11] enjoyable in the day.
[67:13] And I think coffee's a great way to
[67:14] explore new cities. And you talk to
[67:16] people who work in great coffee shops,
[67:17] they'll recommend you the best bars, the
[67:19] best restaurants. Like that network is
[67:21] so easy to tap into there that it it's
[67:24] the the best hack. You throw me in a
[67:25] random city, I'll find a good coffee
[67:27] shop and ask the question, where should
[67:29] I eat? Okay.
[67:30] the best bakery. I've got a challenge
[67:31] for you here. Okay.
[67:32] I throw you into a random city. Let's
[67:34] just call that city London. Yep. And I
[67:38] put you in front of
[67:40] all of the chains. Yes.
[67:41] They're all the same distance from your
[67:43] feet.
[67:43] Yeah. Which one does James walk towards?
[67:47] And why?
[67:49] Really difficult question. If I'm
[67:51] honest, if you made me buy a coffee
[67:53] drink that I see I have to buy a coffee
[67:55] drink, right? Is that the I can't just
[67:57] have nothing in it. Nothing and
[67:58] sparkling water and run away.
[68:00] Um
[68:01] You have to get your favorite coffee
[68:03] from one of these chains.
[68:04] harder, cuz otherwise I'd go to like
[68:05] Starbucks and get like a dessert in a
[68:07] cup and go. Because there is, you know,
[68:08] there's enough sort of fat and sugar in
[68:10] there. That's it's a good time. You know
[68:11] what I mean? Like I can't deny there's a
[68:13] little bit of delight in
[68:15] a little Frappuccino.
[68:16] Um
[68:18] Well, I like filter coffee. And so by
[68:20] and large, I would typically probably
[68:21] end up at a Starbucks, cuz they're one
[68:23] of the few that do filter coffee, where
[68:24] it's sort of brewed as filter coffee,
[68:26] distinct and different from a an
[68:28] Americano.
[68:29] And sometimes you can be mean and ask
[68:31] them to make a specific coffee and they
[68:32] have to do that for you if you ask just
[68:34] right.
[68:35] So that would be the the lazy answer to
[68:37] that.
[68:38] You walk into a Starbucks, what do you
[68:39] say? Uh
[68:42] If I'm being fully weird,
[68:43] Be fully weird.
[68:44] Fine. Then I'm going to look
[68:46] I'm going to look at the tanks. They'll
[68:47] have two tanks of like filter coffee
[68:49] prepped. They'll have timers counting
[68:51] down on them,
[68:52] which is how old they are. Because the
[68:54] longer filter coffee sits, the worse it
[68:56] tastes. And so I'm going to look for the
[68:57] one that has the longest time left on
[68:59] the tank before they have to throw it
[69:00] away. I'm going to get a small cup or
[69:03] What is it there? I can't remember.
[69:04] Tall, is it? I don't know. Who knows? A
[69:06] tall cup of that filter coffee, because
[69:07] it's going to be the freshest brewed
[69:09] thing that they have. And that's my kind
[69:10] of answer.
[69:12] It's a bit weird to start looking at
[69:13] timers though. But once you notice it,
[69:14] you'll see them sitting there.
[69:16] Interesting.
[69:16] So you walk in, you say you look at the
[69:17] timers, and then you make a request to
[69:20] have the one that's freshest.
[69:21] Yes, cuz I would rather have, say, a
[69:22] darker roast that I don't enjoy as much
[69:24] that's fresher than a lighter roast
[69:26] that's been sitting around a couple
[69:27] hours or something like that. I don't
[69:28] know whether I can't remember what their
[69:29] use times is. It might be an hour, hour
[69:30] and a half.
[69:31] I want it fresher than that. So, that's
[69:33] that's my thing. I think in a lot of
[69:35] Starbucks, if you ask them to make a
[69:36] French press for you, they they still
[69:37] have to do that.
[69:39] Um
[69:39] so, yeah, there's like an option that's
[69:41] like an off-menu option. Some have said
[69:43] yes over the years, some have been just
[69:44] been like straight no.
[69:46] Uh but that was a a good little hack for
[69:47] a while. But yeah, by and large, I'll
[69:49] get filter coffee from the freshest pot
[69:51] that they have.
[69:52] What is your sleep like?
[69:53] Pretty good. I work hard at that though.
[69:55] Like I I pay a lot of attention to sleep
[69:57] because it's it's important to me and
[69:59] it's important for future me and I'm
[70:01] trying to do a better job. I'm old
[70:03] enough now that future me is important
[70:04] thing. Uh in my 20s, future me was not
[70:07] very important to me.
[70:08] And in my 40s, I've got to think
[70:10] differently.
[70:11] You seem like a very obsessive person. I
[70:13] wouldn't say obsessive. I would I would
[70:15] I would disagree.
[70:16] you're so passionate is a better word.
[70:19] You're starting lots of businesses. You
[70:20] probably got more ideas than you have
[70:21] hours in the day.
[70:22] Comfortably. You remind me of myself in
[70:24] that. There's a cost to this obsession.
[70:25] Yes. What is the cost? Uh
[70:29] Yeah, I think um
[70:32] probably like uh
[70:34] if you stopped me and said, "What do you
[70:35] do for fun?" I'd have to stop and think
[70:37] about that for quite a long time because
[70:38] it's a really tricky question of like,
[70:40] "Oh wait, what do I what do I I I work
[70:42] and I do coffee things and then I sleep
[70:43] and then, you know, there's like
[70:44] whatever home life."
[70:45] Oh yeah, I've sort of sacrificed a
[70:47] little bit of that and I don't think I
[70:48] have a hobby, if that makes sense. Like
[70:50] I I I think that's probably not unusual
[70:52] in in a certain
[70:53] uh group of people, but yeah, I do
[70:55] sometimes think
[70:56] the the the kind of feeling of like I've
[70:58] got so much to do all the time. I think
[71:00] a lack of space would probably be my
[71:02] loss and and I don't know what I'd do
[71:04] with it if I had time to do nothing.
[71:07] But I occasionally grieve emptiness in
[71:09] the day. Mhm.
[71:11] As you play your your life forward, are
[71:14] you mentally planning to make some
[71:17] adjustments to the way that you're
[71:20] living now as you look forward into the
[71:22] future? Cuz I always think I'm doing
[71:23] that. I think 5 years time or in 10
[71:25] years time, I'll do this, I'll sell this
[71:27] thing, and I'll just be a little bit
[71:28] more chill. A little bit more chill.
[71:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah, I've been lying to
[71:31] myself that way for 15
[71:34] I would love to I I think part of me
[71:36] knows that I enjoy what I do. And I and
[71:39] if I sold all my businesses tomorrow,
[71:41] I'd just start another one. And and and
[71:44] that's going to happen for a while. And
[71:45] maybe
[71:46] if I get older, like it changes. You
[71:48] know what I mean? I'm like, "Oh, maybe
[71:49] I'm done doing this the whole thing."
[71:51] But it's it's it's the part of you
[71:54] learns that these can be fun. Like the
[71:56] game is fun
[71:57] of making things, creating things, and
[71:59] then growing these things. It's just
[72:00] fun.
[72:02] So, yeah, I'd love to I think for me,
[72:04] I'd love to just find more time for
[72:05] stuff like exercise and that kind of
[72:07] stuff, investing there.
[72:08] And you could argue and probably should
[72:10] argue that
[72:12] I should be doing that now because how
[72:13] is what is more important than health?
[72:15] What is more important than health? And
[72:16] the answer is nothing is more important
[72:18] than health. So, why am I not making the
[72:20] time for the additional cardio and
[72:21] making the the time, you know, to get a
[72:23] little bit more lifting, a little bit
[72:24] more hitting? Why am I not making that
[72:25] time now? Cuz there's no good reason.
[72:27] Well, I am starting to now. Like I'm
[72:29] I've wrestling with it enough. I'm like,
[72:30] "Fine, I'm going to make my life even
[72:31] more complex,
[72:33] squeeze my day even shorter, and I will
[72:35] find the time." Um you know, Peter Attia
[72:38] has broken my brain too.
[72:40] You know, happens to all of us. But like
[72:41] um
[72:42] Yeah.
[72:43] I definitely go through the thing of
[72:45] like, "Yeah, I will do this. I'll spend
[72:47] less time on this stuff. I'll have more
[72:49] time. I'll do yoga. I'll spend, you
[72:51] know, more time on myself in the
[72:53] future." But I think I know I love what
[72:55] I do. I really enjoy it. And it changes
[72:58] all the time and no one day is the same
[73:00] as the next. And I love that and I can
[73:02] cope with that. If your kids come to you
[73:03] though, your two young kids, and they
[73:05] say, "Daddy, I want career advice."
[73:07] Yeah.
[73:08] Based on the journey that you've been on
[73:10] yourself and the path that you've
[73:11] walked, when you look back at the sort
[73:13] of the key components of the success
[73:15] you've achieved in a very specific
[73:18] industry,
[73:19] what advice would you give to them?
[73:21] I think lean into the things that
[73:23] genuinely interest you because there's
[73:24] opportunities in everything.
[73:26] Even if it's like pen lids or I don't
[73:29] know, bio 100% if genuinely passionate
[73:31] about it, then there's opportunity
[73:32] there. Coffee was not a a growth
[73:35] industry. No one was proud that their
[73:37] kid worked in coffee in the early 2000s.
[73:39] Do you know what I mean? Like oh,
[73:40] they're doing that before they get the
[73:41] next job in the thing or they're doing
[73:42] that to pay themselves through here. To
[73:44] work in coffee was not
[73:46] like a career. That was a weird thing to
[73:49] think then. I loved it and I was
[73:51] encouraged in it and given opportunity
[73:53] in it and I flourished in it. And so,
[73:54] for me,
[73:56] whatever the future of work holds, I
[73:57] think creativity and empathy are
[73:59] important parts of that and passion is
[74:02] another piece of it. And I hope they
[74:03] have the opportunity to be passionate
[74:04] about something. And you know, I figure
[74:07] that's what your 20s are for, right?
[74:08] Like find the thing you're excited
[74:10] about.
[74:11] And then in your 30s? Do it. Do it
[74:14] really well. Don't do it stupidly like I
[74:16] did. Like I did I fell for the whole
[74:18] hustle grind nonsense and I worked too
[74:20] many hours and I nearly hated the thing
[74:21] that I loved
[74:22] cuz that's what culture was then. It was
[74:24] like you've got to work every hour and
[74:26] if you're not sleeping under your desk,
[74:27] what are you even doing? Which is a lie
[74:29] and stupid and deeply unhealthy in my
[74:30] opinion.
[74:32] But you know, I you know, that was when
[74:34] my career really took off. And yeah, I'd
[74:37] won this World Barista Championship
[74:39] thing in my 20s, but
[74:41] nobody cared. In the UK, nobody cared.
[74:44] There was no no one was impressed by
[74:45] that. If I was the world's best sandwich
[74:47] maker, that was a career. But coffee?
[74:50] Ah, whatever. Different now, but but you
[74:52] know,
[74:53] yeah, I I feel like
[74:55] I I think people know that now. There's
[74:56] more time to just kind of work out what
[74:58] you want to do and that's okay to not be
[75:01] getting stuck into the perfect thing
[75:04] right away. Like it's okay to mess
[75:05] around and find out what you like and
[75:07] what you don't like.
[75:08] I did a bunch of terrible jobs too. I
[75:10] worked in casinos. I sold gas and
[75:11] electric door-to-door. I worked in music
[75:13] publishing and I hated all of them. And
[75:15] I was great cuz now I know what I don't
[75:16] want to do. When you think about
[75:18] particularly though your success in this
[75:20] industry cuz some people will have
[75:22] passion, but they won't be able to
[75:24] become the number one world barista
[75:26] champion. When you reflect and do kind
[75:28] of a skills audit of yourself, what what
[75:31] do you pull out of there and go, "That's
[75:33] the reason why I was able to go so far
[75:35] in this particular industry?"
[75:37] I think I had a lot of practice at
[75:38] communication. That's what I was going
[75:40] to I was one of the things I really
[75:41] noticed about you is your communication
[75:42] skills.
[75:43] So, I had dual practice. One as I said,
[75:45] I wrote this blog which was about
[75:46] digesting information well enough to
[75:48] explain it back to someone else. And so,
[75:49] that was a great process for me.
[75:51] Secondly, I had a weird job where I was
[75:53] a training
[75:54] I was kind of national training manager
[75:55] for an espresso machine company. And I
[75:57] had in the back of my car a commercial
[75:58] machine, projector, screen. Like I I was
[76:01] a mobile cafe and I would travel the
[76:03] whole UK,
[76:04] build out a kind of set set
[76:06] travel the whole UK, build out a lecture
[76:08] room,
[76:09] lecture to 30 random people for 3 hours,
[76:12] pack it down, go to the next city or
[76:14] next town or whatever else. And so, it
[76:15] was it was public speaking of a sort
[76:18] Mhm. uh with a totally cold audience who
[76:20] did not care or really be that
[76:22] interested. Can you win them over? Can
[76:24] you communicate? Can you teach them?
[76:26] That was an incredible 2 years of my
[76:28] life of doing that every week. What age?
[76:31] Uh that was 25, 26. And I was a terrible
[76:34] public speaker beforehand. And now I
[76:36] love it. I love being on stage. I love
[76:38] that kind of communication. And it helps
[76:40] to make videos and it helps to talk to
[76:42] people and it helps to kind of chew your
[76:43] thoughts before you spit them out again.
[76:45] And yeah, it's
[76:47] just
[76:49] Isn't it You know, if I was thinking if
[77:34] young kids now, what what the most
[77:36] of communication that comes with
[77:38] empathy. And that's kind of why I love
[77:40] the service industry and and and
[77:42] encourage people to spend time working
[77:43] in cafes or restaurants because it's a
[77:45] great place to have to read people all
[77:48] the time. Mhm. What do they need right
[77:50] now? Cuz that's what a coffee shop
[77:52] should be. It should be a reliable
[77:53] vendor of happiness. You should walk in
[77:55] that building and walk out happier, in a
[77:58] better mood, happier. That's the kind of
[78:00] key thing. But that's required that
[78:02] requires someone on the other side
[78:04] looking at you and being like, "What do
[78:05] you need today?" Mhm. And not just
[78:07] asking you that, but do you want a
[78:09] conversation? Do you want to know about
[78:10] the coffee or do you want me to just
[78:11] shut up and make it as fast as I can?
[78:13] That empathy piece, that reading of
[78:16] people is so important and such a great
[78:18] skill that you can take out of
[78:19] hospitality into whatever else you want
[78:22] to do.
[78:23] And I don't think hospitality really
[78:24] kind of advertises that aspect of it
[78:26] enough.
[78:27] When I look at you, if I was to do a
[78:28] skills audit, I'd say
[78:30] clearly an incredibly hard worker.
[78:32] That's going to be a great tailwind
[78:33] through through your career.
[78:35] Um curiosity.
[78:37] Huge amount of curiosity which I think
[78:38] kind of couples up with the word
[78:39] learning that you used at the start. You
[78:41] love to learn. Yeah. And you your wealth
[78:43] of knowledge because of that curiosity
[78:44] is huge. Your ability to then articulate
[78:46] what you know and what you've learned
[78:47] and what you've condensed, I think, is a
[78:48] huge one. But not just articulate it,
[78:50] tell stories that are like compelling in
[78:52] an in a compelling way. The way you
[78:53] speak, the intonations, all of that
[78:55] keeps people with you. Um and then yeah,
[78:58] I guess the repetitions of like the
[79:00] craft itself, like knowing how to make
[79:02] great coffee yourself by actually
[79:03] spending a long time doing it. Which is
[79:06] different from being a parrot. Like
[79:07] practitioners and parrots are two
[79:08] separate things. You're clearly a
[79:10] practitioner. And a great like I'm not a
[79:12] parrot cuz you're not repeating things.
[79:13] You're you've learned these things
[79:14] yourselves. But you're a great talker,
[79:16] but also a great practitioner. That's
[79:17] very kind of you. And then you've got 20
[79:19] years behind you and [ __ ] me, 20 years
[79:21] of doing anything, you can you know, you
[79:23] become a master, so
[79:24] yeah.
[79:25] That's my assessment. And then you're
[79:26] like a likable individual. You're very
[79:28] likable guy. You've got a nice constant
[79:30] your your resting face is a smirk like a
[79:33] smile, which is endearing. I think I'm
[79:35] broadly happy.
[79:37] You seem like a happy guy, so Yeah, I
[79:38] don't think I have any reason not to be.
[79:40] Yeah. What is um what is the message to
[79:42] the world then, the closing message to
[79:43] the world about coffee?
[79:45] If you had to give one, if you were
[79:46] speaking to everyone on planet Earth
[79:47] right now,
[79:48] and you had to just give them a few
[79:49] couple sentences. This is your megaphone
[79:51] to the entirety of the world, 8 billion
[79:52] people.
[79:54] If you want it to be, coffee's really
[79:56] great fun.
[79:57] It it if you are willing to put in a
[79:59] little tiny bit, I guarantee you will
[80:00] get way more out. However you enjoy your
[80:03] coffee, whatever you enjoy about coffee,
[80:05] it's got more to give and and it's I
[80:07] promise a ton of fun.
[80:10] That's what I will call away here
[80:12] with as many
[80:14] with all the other insights into you,
[80:15] your life, coffee itself. The big thing
[80:18] I will come away from this conversation
[80:19] with is an increased excitement about
[80:22] coffee. Good. I hope to fan the flames
[80:24] of that after this. Yeah, and I'm really
[80:25] going to I really No, I really mean
[80:26] that. I'm
[80:27] I feel like I'm you might have just sent
[80:29] me on my own little coffee journey. Oh,
[80:31] come and have coffee with me somewhere.
[80:32] We'll go and get a bunch of stuff. We'll
[80:33] do a little coffee tasting for you and
[80:35] and see what you really like. I know
[80:36] you've got no time, so that's not a real
[80:38] invite, but thank you for that.
[80:40] it is. It is. I'm just up the road from
[80:41] here. Like anytime, we'll do it. I
[80:43] appreciate that. I'll take you up on
[80:44] that. All right. Okay, so we we have a
[80:46] closing tradition on this podcast where
[80:47] the last guest leaves a question for the
[80:50] next guest. And I cannot believe I have
[80:51] to ask you this bloody question. I'm
[80:53] ready.
[80:54] You will you will think I'm lying when I
[80:56] read this. Okay.
[80:58] But I have to read it because that's my
[81:00] job.
[81:00] ready. No, you're not. Okay.
[81:03] What is the duration of your nighttime
[81:05] erections?
[81:07] Did you just have Brian Johnson on here?
[81:09] Is that Is that from Brian Johnson?
[81:12] Um I don't know Brian. The little device
[81:14] was sold out by the time I saw it.
[81:17] Uh
[81:18] I I don't I yeah, I don't know. Well, we
[81:20] should all be finding out apparently.
[81:22] Neither do I. I mean, Jesus Christ,
[81:24] that's not going to make the
[81:25] conversation cards that question. [ __ ]
[81:26] sake, Brian.
[81:28] Um but thank you so much. Do you know
[81:29] what? These books are just absolutely
[81:31] beautiful. Thank you very much.
[81:32] These
[81:33] Have you Have you just done two of them?
[81:34] Or is there more to come out?
[81:35] the Atlas is a second edition now, and
[81:37] then the other one just came out. The
[81:38] World Atlas of Coffee is one of the most
[81:41] beautiful books I've ever seen in my
[81:42] life, and it's got
[81:43] They did a great job. beautifully rich
[81:46] photography in it, lots of history, all
[81:48] of the equipment questions that I've
[81:49] been asking you about. So, if anyone
[81:51] really wants to understand coffee, or
[81:52] I'll tell you what, get someone a great
[81:54] book if they're a coffee fan, that is
[81:57] the book. That is absolutely gorgeous.
[81:59] And then the second book, How to Make
[82:00] the Best Coffee at Home, I mean, we we
[82:03] we touched on this a little bit, but it
[82:04] goes into such great muggle detail
[82:07] because even as an idiot I can
[82:08] understand all of this stuff um as to
[82:12] how to build your own little home setup
[82:14] and the process that is important to
[82:15] great coffee. That is right. Yeah. The
[82:17] first one was kind of written as a
[82:18] guidebook as coffee got big and weird
[82:20] and confusing and and there was just a
[82:22] lot of information suddenly. I kind of
[82:23] wrote the first one as a guidebook to
[82:25] this new wave of coffee. And the second
[82:27] one really is people have embraced
[82:28] coffee at home. I just want to make it
[82:30] as easy as possible by focusing on the
[82:32] stuff that matters and not all the kind
[82:34] of voodoo or weird sort of
[82:36] uh
[82:37] odd traditions around that and just the
[82:38] stuff that really makes a difference.
[82:40] You didn't have to make them so
[82:41] beautiful, but they're such beautiful
[82:42] books throughout. So, I'll link them
[82:44] both in the description below for anyone
[82:46] that wants to check them out. Thank you.
[82:47] James, thank you so much. It's been a
[82:48] pleasure. I feel inspired.
[82:50] I like really enjoyed this. Thank you.
[82:51] And I I'm excited to go and get a
[82:53] wonderful
[82:55] McDonald's coffee immediately after this
[82:57] conversation's done. So, thank you.
[82:59] Thank you.
[83:02] A quick word on Huel. As you know,
[83:04] they're a sponsor of this podcast and
[83:05] I'm an investor in the company. It is
[83:07] finally here, 3 years of work from Huel
[83:09] to try and make a bar, a snack bar that
[83:11] is nutritionally complete. As of the
[83:13] recording of this episode, they finally
[83:16] released these bars that are high in
[83:17] protein, 27 vitamins and minerals, and
[83:21] just 2 g of sugar. The impossible has
[83:23] been done. And it tastes so goddamn
[83:26] good. Often these snack bars, these like
[83:28] high protein snack bars, taste like
[83:29] you're eating Play-Doh or cardboard or
[83:32] something. It's so hard to make one that
[83:34] is nutritionally complete and that
[83:36] tastes good. And ladies and gentlemen,
[83:39] here we have it. I'm going to put the
[83:40] link in the description to get your bar
[83:41] below. Try it out and tag me and let me
[83:44] know exactly how you get on because it's
[83:46] so nice to finally have a bar that is
[83:48] nutritionally complete and that actually
[83:49] doesn't taste like cardboard and that
[83:51] tastes delicious.
[83:53] The impossible has been accomplished.
[83:56] Do you need a podcast to listen to next?
[83:59] We've discovered that people who liked
[84:00] this episode also tend to absolutely
[84:03] love another recent episode we've done.
[84:05] So, I've linked that episode in the
[84:07] description below. I know you'll enjoy
[84:09] it.
