Xi Accepts Domestic Slump to Fuel Tech War, Hoover's Wang Says

胡佛学者王丹：习近平接受国内经济放缓以发力科技战 中国最高领导层容忍房地产崩盘和创纪录的青年失业率，将国家资源转移到关键的半导体和电池制造领域，以应对大国竞争。 《Breakneck》作者兼斯坦福大学胡佛研究所研究员 Dan Wang 与主持人 Joe Weisenthal 和 Tracy Alloway 连线，分享了他近期走访上海与云南的观察心得。讨论探讨了中国无处不在的手机与网红文化、外籍人群结构的变化，以及房地产下行和青年失业等严重的国内经济摩擦。他们还分析了东亚生育率骤降的根本原因、华为激进的“狼性文化”，以及审查制度如何阻碍中国的全球文化输出。 上海外籍人士构成出现显著转变，欧美面孔明显减少，俄罗斯与中东商旅人士激增；中国14亿人口仅拥有约100万外籍移民，与仅600万人口的爱尔兰持平。 (6:45) 高度普及的智能手机与无缝5G基础设施重塑了公共空间，咖啡馆和云南等旅游地沦为摆拍布景，拍照打卡成为年轻人替代大额消费的低成本生活方式。 (20:00) 一线城市呈现物质极大丰富与底层经济焦虑并存的“平静不安”：虽然享有低廉的电动车补能与精致餐饮，但居民面临25%至30%的房产缩水以及逼近20%的青年失业率。 (30:00) 上海的总和生育率（TFR）已跌至0.6（中心城区仅0.4），其核心根源在于从幼儿期蔓延至大学的极端教育内卷，以及强加给年轻人的沉重社会期待。 (35:00) 科技企业的“狼性文化”彰显了发展中国家激进的拼搏心态；中国高层展现出承受内需压力的意愿，优先将国家资源集中倾斜于半导体与电池等前沿硬件，全力打造“堡垒中国”。 (40:00)

Following a month-long trip to China, author and Stanford Hoover Institution fellow Dan Wang observes a nation marked by elite technological and material execution alongside pervasive social ennui, demographic decline, and state-induced cultural stagnation. Material Affordability and the Reality of Ennui On the surface, China's urban environments deliver exceptional material affordances. Cities like Shanghai feature world-class bakeries and inventive coffee scenes alongside advanced infrastructure where charging an electric vehicle for 600 kilometers costs roughly $12. Joe Weisenthal notes comparable urban luxuries in Shenzhen, such as five-star hotel stays priced at a fraction of their Western equivalents and sprawling, pristine infrastructure. However, Dan characterizes the overarching social atmosphere as a 'serene discontent' driven by acute structural strain. Youth unemployment sits between 15% and 20%, roughly 75% of household wealth remains tied up in property, and real estate values across tier-one cities have fallen 25% to 30%. This economic friction has produced visible social fallout: homeless individuals are now seen wandering the periphery of Shanghai, unemployed migrant workers have returned to rural hometowns, and college graduates increasingly rely on food delivery jobs or move back in with parents. Dan explains that central authorities, led by Xi Jinping, appear willing to absorb this domestic pain in order to harden 'Fortress China' for geopolitical competition, funneling critical resources directly toward advanced hardware, semiconductors, and batteries while ordinary consumer living standards take a back seat. The East Asian Demographic Crisis China's economic outlook is clouded by an accelerating demographic cliff. The national total fertility rate (TFR) has dropped to 1.0, while Shanghai has fallen to an official 0.6—with certain wealthy downtown districts reaching as low as 0.4. Projections cited by Dan indicate that roughly half of China's population will be over 65 within approximately two decades. Unlike Japan, which maintains a slightly higher TFR of 1.2 to 1.3 and exhibits greater openness to immigration, China remains demographically isolated. Citing Sam Enright's research, Dan points out that China and Ireland each host roughly 1 million foreign-born residents, despite China having a population of 1.4 billion compared to Ireland's 6 million. Addressing the collapse in births, Dan argues that Western assumptions that material conveniences or subsidized childcare will revive birth rates are flawed. Instead, he points to a suffocating educational and social culture as the primary culprit. Intense hyper-competition forces parents to secure expensive real estate in premier school districts, leading many young adults to conclude that having children is irrational if they cannot guarantee elite academic outcomes. This pressure is compounded by persistent familial demands regarding marriage and reproduction, causing young people to opt out of family formation entirely. Digital Hyper-Connection as Consumption Substitute (10:45) Daily life in major Chinese hubs has been profoundly transformed by aggressive phone use and influencer aesthetics, enabled by comprehensive 5G networks that eliminate dead zones even underground. Both Dan and Joe observe that mobile screens dominate public spaces, from social gatherings where diners monitor e-commerce tracking or edit photos, to retail floors where sales clerks continuously live-stream. In public hubs, cafes and cocktail bars have been repurposed into visual backdrops where groups linger over single drinks solely to capture imagery for platforms like Xiaohongshu (RED). Dan views this performative influencer culture as an inexpensive substitute for deeper economic consumption during a period of consumer caution. Rather than spending heavily on high-end travel or dining, domestic travelers venture to scenic locations like Yunnan, donning ethnic minority garments for photos to project an elevated lifestyle at minimal cost. Meanwhile, the constant digital attachment is reinforced by workplace demands that require employees to remain perpetually responsive to managers, blurring boundaries between work and personal life. Industrial Dynamism vs. Stifled Cultural Output (40:00) China's private sector maintains a fierce operational tempo, often described as 'wolf culture' (狼性文化). Dan compares this aggressive drive not to mere Communist Party doctrine, but to the unrestrained hustle seen in the United States a century ago, pointing out that China consciously emulated American industrial systems, consumer habits, and infrastructure while rejecting its political model. This work ethic supports state priorities in strategic manufacturing, but the heavy hand of state oversight has simultaneously hobbled China's bottom-up cultural output. While regional peers like South Korea achieve global reach with music and television franchises, Chinese cultural exports remain largely muted. Dan highlights domestic stand-up comedy in Shanghai as an example of this constraint: while popular, performances rely on rigid, pre-approved scripts submitted to government censors rather than organic observational humor. Following a prior incident where a joke referencing a military slogan prompted a multi-month shutdown of local comedy venues, performers operate under acute caution, illustrating how ideological control limits spontaneous creative expression. The hosts reflect that while China continues to close industrial and infrastructural gaps with the developed world, its social mood is converging on the same anxieties, demographic headwinds, and youth disillusionment seen in modern Western economies, complicated by rigid political limits on cultural and civic expression.

斯坦福大学胡佛研究所学者 Dan Wang 在走访上海与云南后指出，当前中国呈现出一流物质与数字基础设施与深层社会倦怠并存的割裂状态。他认为，决策层正将国家重心全面转向硬核技术自给的“要塞中国”模式，宁愿承受房地产财富缩水、高青年失业率与断崖式生育危机的阵痛，而在严格的政治审查下，其底层文化创新与全球文化输出能力依然深陷瓶颈。 物质充裕与数字沉迷背后的“平静不满” Dan Wang 观察到，中国在日常物质生活和数字服务上展现了极高的便利性与工艺水准。上海拥有比肩巴黎或东京的顶级烘焙坊与极具创意的咖啡文化，续航约600公里的电动车充满电仅需约12美元，依托完善的5G网络与超级应用生态，消费者可享受到15分钟送达的即时配送。但与此同时，智能手机与社交媒体的渗透达到了极致，餐桌社交与零售商铺几乎被直播带货和即时通讯全面占据。职场文化对即刻响应的严苛要求进一步模糊了工作与生活的边界，使公众难以脱离屏幕。 然而，这种极致的数字化在很大程度上成为替代深层消费的低成本视觉表演。Dan Wang 发现，在上海街区以及以多民族风情著称的云南，大量年轻人聚集在咖啡馆或雪山风景区拍照，通过小红书等平台展示生活方式，以此低成本满足社交认同。他将这种普遍的社会心境归纳为一种“平静的不满”（serene discontent）或深层倦怠：在光鲜便利的物质外表下，年轻群体对于现实境遇的无力感与焦虑情绪并未消解。 资产缩水、就业承压与极端教育下的生育危机 在高效的基础设施之下，中国普通家庭正面临严峻的经济压力。Dan Wang 指出，中国居民约75%的家庭财富与房地产挂钩，而一线城市房价已回落25%至30%；官方青年失业率在15%至20%之间，大学毕业生从事外卖配送或重回家庭依赖父母的现象日益普遍，甚至在上海近郊多年来首次能明显观察到流浪人员。这些现实压力加剧了人口结构的断崖式恶化：上海官方公布的总和生育率（TFR）已降至0.6，较富裕的核心市区甚至仅为0.4，全国平均生育率约为1.0；按此趋势，预计20年内中国将有近半数人口超过65岁。 针对西方普遍认为“提供托育补贴或改善公共设施即可提振生育”的观点，Dan Wang 强调物质条件并未解决东亚的底层问题。他认为，高度内卷的教育文化是导致生育崩溃的首要根源。家长深信如果孩子未能考入顶级名校，一生将面临失败，这导致竞争压力直接蔓延至幼儿园阶段，迫使家庭耗费巨资抢购优质学区房。加之年轻人在毕业后面临巨大的就业竞争与社会催婚压力，许多年轻人得出结论：若无法提供无懈可击的完美条件，不如选择不育。 “要塞中国”定位与战略硬科技的优先考量 (40:00) 面对国内消费降温与经济逆风，中国最高层的核心战略并未动摇。Dan Wang 分析认为，决策层正在实现其战略预设，即将国家全面塑造成应对大国竞争的“要塞中国”（Fortress China）。在国家安全与地缘博弈的主导逻辑下，决策层似乎愿意承受国内严峻的经济摩擦与生活水平受挫，包括承受房地产去杠杆的阵痛与青年失业压力，从而将有限的资本与政策资源集中配置给半导体、动力电池以及先进硬件等底层战略技术。 针对外界对华为“狼性文化”的讨论，Dan Wang 认为这不应仅被视作单纯的政治意识形态，而更多是一种发展中国家原始、凶悍的进取心与硬核资本主义拼劲，与一个世纪前美国工业化上升期的社会张力十分相似。中国在技术标准、高速公路与汽车文化上全面借鉴西方工业经验，同时在国家意志的主导下，将廉价能源与巨额补贴全盘赋予排名前0.1%至10%的核心工程技术精英，普通消费者的生活舒适度在此逻辑下退居次席。 审查红线与文化软实力输出的制度性瓶颈 (45:00) 与日益强大的高端制造业形成鲜明对比的是，中国在文化软实力领域的全球输出依然步履维艰。除个别泡泡玛特（Labubu）等流行潮玩外，中国底层文化内容对全球的影响力远逊于以流行音乐和影视剧风靡国际的韩国。Dan Wang 结合其在上海脱口秀剧场的实地观察指出，尽管年轻受众对线下喜剧参与热情极高，但整体创作生态受到严格限制。受此前喜剧演员涉及军队口号事件导致全行业关停数月的影响，目前演员登台前均须将讲稿提交政府审查，现场敏锐的社会观察与即兴表达被大幅抹杀。 节目主持人 Joe Weisenthal 与 Dan Wang 进一步探讨了官僚体系在落实高层意识形态时的层层加码倾向，即下层管理者常倾向于过度执行以证明自身忠诚，从而导致社会管理氛围趋于严肃与缺乏幽默感。这种严格的自上而下控制抑制了底层的自发生机，使得中国在物质和工业实力不断攀升的同时，文化输出难以在海外激发广泛的情感共鸣。 Dan Wang 的走访观察表明，中国当前面临的挑战不仅是周期性的经济波动，更是国家战略向安全防御与硬核制造倾斜、社会深陷教育竞争与人口老龄化复合压力下的系统性反映。尽管外部常从意识形态对抗的视角解读中国，但其在数字生活沉迷、青年社会倦怠及极低生育意愿等层面上，正表现出与发达经济体高度趋同的现代性焦虑。大国竞争驱动下的工业动员能否在消费活力受抑与深度老龄化的挑战下保持长久动力，仍是留待观察的核心课题。

## Background 本期节目由彭博社（Bloomberg）旗下的知名播客《Odd Lots》于 2026 年 7 月 2 日发布在各大音频与网络平台。节目简介指出，当前关于中国经济的讨论存在一种奇特矛盾：一方面高端制造与物质繁荣不可否认，另一方面内需疲软与普通工人的不安全感普遍蔓延；为此节目邀请常驻嘉宾丹·王（Dan Wang）分享他近期重返上海和云南的深度观察，探讨中国社会的普遍倦怠、内需迹象以及手机文化对日常生活的重塑。 ## TL;DR 学者丹·王结合自身在上海与云南为期一个月的实地见闻，与刚结束 24 小时深圳之行的主持人乔·威森塔尔共同拆解当代中国社会的深层现实。他们观察到欧美外籍人士大幅减少、俄罗斯与中东经贸客流增多，以及实体空间被网红打卡与无处不在的手机屏幕深度重构。对话深刻探讨了中国社会中极致的物质便利与青年高失业、断崖式超低生育率之间的巨大割裂，以及大国博弈下“堡垒中国”对硬核制造的战略倾斜与自下而上文化活力的被动受限。全片最终引申至中美两国年轻人跨越体制与文化共有的“安详不满”与精神倦怠。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话轻松幽默却又充满智识穿透力，开场以两位主持人对“24 小时成为中国通”和北京与上海城市气质的辛辣调侃切入，迅速营造出亲切熟稔的沙龙氛围。随着话题从街头见闻转向青年失业、超低生育率与严格审查，嘉宾的语调转为克制而冷静的洞察，在尖锐揭示现实矛盾的同时带有某种带着冷幽默的叹息。听感上既有对前沿科技与市井人情味的生动捕捉，又萦绕着一种对物质繁荣之下普遍精神虚无的深沉思索与情感共鸣。 ## Bulletin - `30:00` 丹·王时隔多年重访中国大陆，指出一线城市在极高品质的消费生活与先进基础设施背后，普遍弥漫着一种年轻人的“安详不满”与倦怠感。 - `30:00` 中国大都市面临断崖式生育危机，上海总和生育率仅为 0.6，部分核心富裕街区低至 0.4，且家庭约 75% 财富锁定在房产，核心城市房价跌幅达 25%–30%。 - `43:24` 在“堡垒中国”的国家战略框架下，政策资源全力向半导体、动力电池及顶尖精英工程师倾斜，高层对房地产下行与逼近 20% 的青年失业率展现出较高的战略容忍度。 - `14:48` 无死角的移动网络与极速即时零售构建了极致便利，却演变为职场必须“秒回”的永不下线枷锁；同时手机摆拍打卡正在对深度实体度假消费产生替代效应。 ## Key takeaways - `05:40` 在华外籍群体结构剧烈洗牌，欧美客流尤其是美国人显著减少，俄罗斯及中东阿拉伯商人明显增多；14 亿人口的中国仅有约 100 万常住外来移民，绝对规模略逊于人口 600 万的爱尔兰。 - `07:15` 上海拥有以租界绿荫街区、密集咖啡馆与地铁网络为代表的极佳步行宜居度；而北京带有浓厚的苏式与斯大林主义规划风格，政治中枢与智识氛围更浓厚，但生活舒适度差异明显。 - `11:15` 全覆盖的地下 5G 与长途通勤催生了无处不在的屏幕文化，不仅餐桌上看手机成为常态、实体店直播化普及，更因永不断联的技术环境演变为随时待命的职场压力闭环。 - `20:00` 社交平台上的打卡文化演变为对高额实体消费的廉价替代品，从上海咖啡馆的低消费占座摆拍到云南标准化的租衣摄影，年轻群体借助低成本镜头表演换取情绪满足。 - `25:52` 深圳展现出强烈的未来感硬件与极致性价比（如 250 美元的高端奢华酒店体验），但城市格局偏向圣何塞式的产业园区与高速公路分割，步行尺度与城市肌理相对割裂。 - `30:00` 中国都市展现出极致的物质丰裕（如约 12 美元充满 600 公里电动车、顶级西点咖啡），与青年失业率逼近 20%、高学历零工化及资产缩水等现实困境形成尖锐反差。 - `35:00` 充足的物质便利和基础设施并未提振生育率，东亚社会的超低生育陷阱根源在于从托育到名校置业的层层教育军备竞赛，以及贯穿人生阶段的无休止内卷焦虑。 - `40:00` 华为的“狼性文化”和攻坚韧性本质上是一种发展中国家力求阶层跃升的拼搏精神（hustle mindset），其底色与早期美国移民下东区式的原始资本主义拼劲高度相似。 - `43:24` “堡垒中国”（Fortress China）战略专注于大国竞争防卫，集中资本与廉价能源攻坚芯片和电池等关键技术高地，因而对普通个体的日常困境与经济软着陆表现得相对泰然。 - `45:26` 严苛的审批与审查机制抑制了自下而上的真实生活表达，上海脱口秀等文娱业态陷入表演剧本化，导致中国庞大的经济与技术体量未能在全球转化为对等的文化软实力辐射。 - `47:30` 当今世界深度受制于硅谷的技术精英与纪律严密的执政官僚，两者均呈现出高度严肃沉重且极度缺乏幽默感的统治气质。 - `52:12` 即便跨越意识形态与体制差异，全球年轻一代正在屏幕异化、生育危机、网络民族主义以及物质繁荣未能消解的存在主义虚无感上呈现出惊人的文化大趋同。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### `01:25` Joe 的 24 小时深圳行与“中国通养成流水线” 节目开场，主持人 Tracy Alloway 与刚刚结束首次中国之行的搭档 Joe Weisenthal 展开了轻松的打趣。Joe 不久前刚去了一趟深圳，虽然停留了短短 24 小时，但他戏称自己表现出了“英雄般的克制”——既没有在回国后立刻在社交媒体上连发 20 条长推特大谈“中国的未来”，也没有以中国专家自居。毕竟，自己拿的只是一张普通的旅游签证，绝不敢妄称所谓“中国通”（China hand）。 两人随即调侃起西方舆论圈经典的“中国通养成流水线”：标准路径往往是先去中国当几个月英语外教，随后顺理成章转型为在华商业顾问，接着开设 YouTube 频道，给自己起一个诸如“老魏”（Lao Weisenthal）或“周山道”（Joe Shandau）的本土化名字。Joe 借此回忆起大学时期一段险些改变人生轨迹的往事：当年在德克萨斯大学就读时，他在校园公告栏看到一张招募去台湾教英语的海报。当时他对未来毫无规划便拨通了电话并留下号码，但由于那时大家共用宿舍座机，对方回电时恰巧被室友接听，最终室友拿到了这份工作远赴台湾。Joe 感叹，如果当时接电话的是自己，或许如今的他不会坐在这里录制 *Odd Lots*，而是在华南地区帮美国企业跑供应链、采购零部件了。 --- ### `04:30` 丹·王重访中国：从犹他山林到双城之行 调侃过后，节目迎来了老朋友丹·王（Dan Wang）。作为斯坦福大学胡佛研究所（Hoover Institution）研究员，以及探讨中国产业雄心的新书《极速狂飙：中国工程化未来的探索》（*Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future*）的作者，丹·王在此前曾常驻中国多年。这次是他自 2023 年初中国彻底放开新冠清零政策（zero-COVID）离开后，首次重返中国大陆。离开中国后，他大部分时间都在美国犹他州南部的山区隐居写作，顺利完成了书稿。 这次回国，丹·王共逗留了一个月，行程由两周的上海和两周的云南组成。他开玩笑提到，自己身处中国期间，纽约发生了两件大事：一是纽约尼克斯队在季后赛第五场锁定胜局（Joe 当时恰好在深圳的一家屋顶酒吧见证了这一刻），二是 Joe 去了深圳，这在推特圈子里引发了不小的关注。身穿红色上衣的丹·王还特意澄清，这身打扮是为了象征自己的加拿大国籍背景。 --- ### `05:40` 外国人面孔的大洗牌：从欧美客到俄罗斯与中东商人 在谈到在华居留与签证机制时，拥有华人血统但持加拿大护照的丹·王解释了当下的现实运作。对于外籍华人而言，探亲签证（如 Q2 签证）提供了极大便利，通常能拿到长达 10 年的多次往返签，这让他回国探望祖母变得非常简单。然而，这类签证并不能直接转化为在华长期工作或合法定居的通道，中国对于整体外籍人口的长期居留政策依然非常严谨。 更引人注目的变化发生在上海街头的人群构成上。丹·王观察到，欧美面孔——尤其是美国人——在街头已经极为罕见，取而代之的是显著增多的俄罗斯人和随处可闻的俄语交谈，以及大量看似前来洽谈商业合作的中东阿拉伯商人。整个在华外籍群体的构成正在发生剧烈剧变。 丹·王援引爱尔兰学者山姆·恩莱特（Sam Enright）的一组震撼对比： - **中国外来移民总量极低**：拥有 14 亿人口的中国，常住的外国移民总量大约仅有 100 万人。 - **国际横向对比**：总人口仅约 600 万的爱尔兰，其境内拥有的外来移民数量同样约为 100 万人。 - 这意味着整个中国的外来移民规模，在绝对数量上竟略逊于一个小体量的欧洲国家。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 中国街头外籍人群与移民构成变化 accDescr: 展示在华外籍人口的结构洗牌以及爱尔兰与中国外来移民数量的惊人对比。 subgraph Shift["上海街头外籍面孔变化"] direction TB A["传统欧美客流（尤其是美国人）"] -->|大幅减少| B["街头西方印记弱化"] C["俄罗斯群体（街头俄语显著增多）"] -->|商务与避险| D["新兴外籍力量"] E["中东与阿拉伯商人"] -->|经贸往来活跃| D end subgraph Comparison["在华移民规模横向对比 (Sam Enright 统计)"] direction TB F["中国：14 亿人口"] --> G["约 100 万外来移民"] H["爱尔兰：600 万人口"] --> I["约 100 万外来移民"] end ``` --- ### `07:15` “东方巴黎”与“西平壤”：北京与上海的城市气质暗战 回顾自己的在华生活轨迹，丹·王先后在三个截然不同的都市圈长期居住过：最初他在香港生活了两年，经常在咖啡馆和刚去香港的 Tracy 一起玩桌游；后来他觉得香港的“中国味”还不够纯粹，于是搬到了北京生活了两年；但在体验了北京之后，他发觉那里的现实“过于厚重”，最终选择定居上海。 丹·王对北京和上海两座城市的气质进行了辛辣而幽默的对比。他毫不掩饰对上海的热爱，称其为“全球最伟大的城市之一”，并戏称当年常驻上海的圈子喜欢互戴高帽，把上海唤作“东方巴黎”，顺便把真正的巴黎戏称为“西方上海”。相比之下，他对北京的城市规划与氛围颇有微词，戏谑地将其描述为一座“带有斯大林主义特征的荒漠草原城市”，头顶仿佛始终笼罩着一种末日迫近的肃穆威胁感——环路冗长，街道宽阔到令人望而生畏，甚至曾亲历遮天蔽日、将整座城市染成末日黄色的漫天沙尘暴。当年在沪的外籍圈子里，甚至有人戏谑地将北京称作“西平壤”或“西朝鲜”。 尽管带着夸张的调侃，丹·王依然客观承认两座城市的深层差异： - **北京的气质**：是无可置疑的政治中枢与智识高地，党政机关森严，汇聚了中国顶尖学府与严肃的思想探讨氛围。 - **上海的气质**：底色深受历史上的法租界等国际商埠文化浸润，更加推崇生活品质、个人舒适度与极度高效的日常便利性。 ### `10:00` 城市空间体验：宜居步行的上海与“斯大林式”的北京 关于中国大都市的宜居程度，丹·王（Dan Wang）与主持人乔·威森塔尔（Joe Weisenthal）和特雷西·阿洛韦（Tracy Alloway）展开了一番对比。在丹·王看来，上海的城市规划显然更胜一筹：租界时代留下的林荫大道、遍布街头巷尾的独立咖啡馆、极佳的步行友好度，以及出门不远便能抵达的密集地铁网络，都让上海展现出极其舒适的都市生活质感。相比之下，他调侃北京的城市格局在本质上更接近“斯大林式的宏大规划”，生活体验远没有那么惬意。丹·王还分享了一段切身经历：他在北京居住的三年间，身上莫名其妙长了三个月的湿疹，并且时不时会发作离奇的偏头痛，而这种生理不适在全世界其他任何地方都从未出现过，唯独在北京生活时挥之不去。 特雷西打趣说，如果《Odd Lots》未来要在中国举办线下播客专场，看来可以果断排除北京了。但乔·威森塔尔却持不同看法，他坦言自己其实更喜欢北京，尤其是对北京的美食情有独钟；即便考虑到听众规模可能上海更占优势，北京依然有其独特的魅力。然而，在乔最近一次为期仅24小时的中国之行中，除了令人惊艳的美食和规模庞大的电子数码市场之外，最让他久久无法忘怀、甚至感到某种文化冲击的，是一件他自称需要“克制地进行新闻观察”的事物——整个社会对智能手机超乎寻常的依赖。 - 上海的核心优势在于其极佳的可步行性、绿树成荫的街道、密集的咖啡馆网络，以及便利的地铁换乘覆盖。 - 北京的城市轴线与大马路格局带有浓厚的苏式/斯大林主义规划色彩；丹·王在此生活期间曾遭遇长达三个月的顽固湿疹和突发性偏头痛。 --- ### `11:15` 手机成瘾与餐桌礼仪：无处不在的屏幕文化 乔·威森塔尔在演播室里坦白，自己在节目录制进行到第9分钟时就已经感到“生理上的焦躁与不适”，因为换作平时，他在这个时间内至少已经看了5次手机。但在中国，他感受到了前所未有的手机使用密度。在纽约的社交礼仪中，聚餐时将手机屏幕朝上放在餐桌上通常被视为一种非常不礼貌的行为，甚至在交谈中频频看手机会招致反感。然而在中国的精致餐厅用餐时，乔惊讶地发现，几乎整桌人都在堂而皇之地低头看手机，屏幕全亮着。这反而让生怕自己拿出手机发推特显得失礼的乔瞬间放下了心理负担，如释重负地融入其中。 丹·王完全印证了乔的观察。丹·王指出，即便是一群难得聚首的好友围坐在一起吃饭，大家也会毫无顾忌地掏出手机，而他们低头处理的往往是非常琐碎的事情——比如随手刷新京东或淘宝的快递物流进度，或者划拉几张刚刚拍好的照片、挑选几张删掉几张。这种随时被屏幕牵引的状态，让大家很难把注意力完全留给当下的面对面交流。特雷西则趁机打趣乔，直言乔自己的大脑早就被手机文化彻底侵蚀了。她控诉在上周两人正聊天时，乔居然能在说到一半的时候直接离席，仅仅是为了跑去给别人身上穿的T恤拍张照片发推特。特雷西戏谑道，以后她要单独和丹·王吃晚饭，让乔在旁边像个“蹒跚学步的小孩一样疯狂发推”，这样两人才能进行严肃认真的对话。 乔还提及在商场里逛街时的震撼场景：几乎每一家临街商铺的店员都在对着支架上的手机屏幕，在抖音（TikTok同类平台）上热情高涨地进行实时直播卖货。“屏幕感”和“手机感”在这个社会的渗透深度，彻底刷新了他的认知。 - 社交礼仪的反差：在纽约，餐桌上手机屏幕朝上常被视为缺乏教养；而在中国的高级餐馆中，全桌人低头看手机已成常态。 - 琐碎的在线习惯：人们在社交饭局上分神，往往只是在查看电商物流状态或整理手机相册中的抓拍照片。 - 实体零售的直播化：商场内的普通店铺几乎标配手机支架，柜员同步在短视频平台向线上观众进行带货直播。 --- ### `14:48` 手机社会的双刃剑：无缝的基础设施与“永不下线”的职场焦虑 特雷西将话题引向深层次机制：这种对手机的极度迷恋，究竟在多大程度上是因为中国人的整个日常生活体系都已被完全整合进了手机终端？丹·王从正反两个维度解析了这一现象背后的推手。首先是令人赞叹的物理与数字基础设施：中国的5G移动网络覆盖极其完善，即便是深入地下数十米的地铁车厢，网络连接也从未中断。相比之下，纽约地铁及偏远区域随处可见的信号盲区令人沮丧。东亚特大城市普遍存在超长的通勤距离，从郊区进入东京、上海或深圳核心区往往需要单程一个多小时，在凉爽舒适且网络畅通的地铁里玩手游、刷视频，自然成了打发漫长通勤的最佳选择。此外，高度集成的“超级应用”让生活极其高效，用户动动手指，15分钟内就能有一份新鲜美味的可颂面包送达家门口。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 手机生态正负反馈回路 accDescr: 展现中国移动互联生态中高效基础设施与职场即时响应压力之间的正反双向机制。 subgraph Positive["便利驱动：数字基础设施与生活服务"] A["全覆盖 5G 网络与地铁无缝信号"] --> B["超长通勤催生移动娱乐需求"] C["高度集成的超级应用"] --> D["极速即时配送<br/>(15分钟送达)"] end subgraph Negative["压力闭环：职场渗透与即时回复焦虑"] E["老板随时通过即时通讯下达指令"] --> F["全员保持在线状态"] F --> G["未即时回复被视作怠慢/冒犯"] G --> E end ``` 然而，这种无死角的连接性也催生了令人窒息的社会副作用。丹·王指出，在中国职场文化中，员工被默认必须时刻处于待命状态，随时准备回复老板的消息。当所有人都拿着手机时，整个社会便建立起一种“信息必须在一两分钟内秒回”的集体预期：如果对方知道你时刻看着手机，而你却没有在30秒或3分钟内回复消息，对方就会感到被冒犯或怠慢。这种机制自我强化，使得任何人都无法单方面退出“时刻低头看手机”的网络。对此，丹·王表示自己更倾向于欧美式的界限感，习惯将所有通知彻底静音，确保自己不被外界随叫随到，守护个人生活的边界。 - 基础设施支撑：无盲区的地下5G网络与东亚大都市典型的1小时以上单程通勤时间，使移动端娱乐成为刚需。 - 极致的生活便利：高效率的即时零售生态能够实现咖啡、糕点等商品15分钟内送货上门。 - 职场与社交压力的闭环：永不断联的技术环境演变成全天候待命的职场枷锁，几分钟内未回复消息往往带来巨大的社交与职场心理负担。 --- ### `18:25` 节目商业插播：定制推广与AI自动化交易 节目录制在此处穿插了赞助商广告。首先是企业定制礼品服务商 4imprint 的宣传，强调其能够根据不同受众、预算和场景为企业定制印有Logo和品牌信息的宣传品，提供免收模具设置费选项、360度交付保障以及专业的快速响应服务。 随后是投资平台 Public.com 的赞助口播。广告提到，针对那些在投资组合中频繁重复固定操作（如逢低买入、手动归集闲置现金、建立对冲头寸）的活跃投资者，Public推出了允许用户使用自然语言设定策略的 AI 智能体（AI Agents）。例如，用户只需输入“如果标普500波动率指数（VIX）达到25，便买入标普500看跌期权”或“如果现金余额超过20,000美元，将超额资金转入直接指数化组合”，经确认后，AI便会在后台自动监控市场并严格执行策略；该平台同时提供支持账户完整读写权限的 API 接口。广告播毕后，节目话锋一转，重新切回关于人工智能的深度探讨。 - 4imprint 推广服务：主打企业定制宣传品，提供灵活预算选项与全方位交付担保（360-degree guarantee）。 - Public.com 投资自动化：支持用户利用自然语言生成 AI 智能体，自动执行对冲、波段买入及现金扫仓等交易指令，并开放全权限 API。 ### `20:00` 拍照打卡与“手机文化”：对实体消费的另类挤出 话题从深圳的网红公寓切入，探讨起当下席卷中国的网红文化与“手机文化”。Dan Wang 直言不讳地表示，这种现象甚至让如今的中国之行变得有些令人不适——无休止的自我拍摄似乎成了人们唯一的正经事。他每次回国通常会造访上海与云南，在他眼中这是中国最美的两处地方：一个是现代都市的极致，另一个则拥有无与伦比的自然风貌。然而，在上海，令他感到沮丧的是，大量咖啡馆沦为了年轻人群（绝大多数是年轻女性）摆拍的道具场地。常常出现七个人围坐一桌却只点一两杯咖啡的窘境，店主大失所望，而这群人却能在店里霸占整整一个小时只为拍照。上海的大街小巷与餐厅，在物理空间上几乎被重新架构为一个个专为拍照打卡服务的“摄影机位”。 主持人对此产生共鸣，指出这在西方也并不鲜见，比如纽约西村（West Village），当年著名的 Dominique Ansel 面包店门口也是人手一部手机对着甜品狂拍，“食物在某种程度上已经变成了行为艺术”。但紧接着的问题在于：这种网红文化是否正在阻碍消费复苏？Dan 认为确实如此。某种程度上，手机打卡文化成了实体度假消费的“廉价替代品”。虽然有人辩称密集的拍摄可能带动了直播带货等特定商业链条，但绝大多数人正在放弃原本花大钱享受的高品质度假体验，转而寻求低成本的镜头展示。 在云南，这种现象展现得尤为淋漓尽致。云南地处中国西南部，也是 Dan 家族的故乡，地理风貌极其多元：北靠喜马拉雅山脉与西藏接壤，南端则是广袤的热带雨林，在这之间聚居着中国官方近 60 个民族中的 25 个少数民族。如今，大批来自上海、北京、深圳的年轻女孩蜂拥至云南，租借当地少数民族服饰，打扮成一天的“藏族姑娘”，背靠雪山拍摄一套精修写真。尽管纽约、迈阿密、洛杉矶的部分区域也因社媒而重塑，但中国的手机文化显然走到了更极端的地步。 - **上海咖啡馆常态**：多达七人的聚会仅消费一两杯咖啡，长时间占座拍摄精修照片。 - **城市空间异化**：无论是户外街区还是室内餐饮，大量装潢被专门设计为迎合取景框的打卡背景墙。 - **云南的“民族体验打卡”**：北至雪山高原、南至热带雨林，大量一二线城市游客前往租衣化装，将多元的民族文化浓缩为一整套标准化的雪山摆拍写真。 --- ### `24:00` 小红书时代的镜头表演与男性群体的处境追问 面对这种席卷而来的拍照风潮，Tracy 提出疑问：耗费如此心力拍照并上传到社交网络，背后的终极驱动力究竟是什么？是为了婚恋交友、建立个人品牌，还是单纯向网络好友展示生活？Dan 坦言自己不常看这些照片，但背后的心理机制全球相通——女性普遍感受到一种必须在平台上展现生活的表演压力，在西方是“为了 Instagram 而表演”（perform for the gram），而在中国则是“为了小红书而表演”。在中国，这还附带了一层现实考量：这是一套花费不高却能获得乐趣的方式，精心画上几个小时的妆，换上一身租来的精致服饰，拍几张美照，既证明了“我来过这里”，又能带来廉价的满足感。Dan 笑称，每当自己被泛滥的打卡文化搞得心烦时，都会提醒自己：“这些女士并没有伤害任何人，于我无损，她们开心就好。” 随后对话转向了一个更隐蔽的维度：在女性活跃于社交媒体的同时，中国年轻男性的现状如何？Joe 指出，在韩国，政治中的性别鸿沟大得惊人，韩国网络政治甚至比西方更早步入极化；而中国缺乏直接选举，外界无法通过选票数据观察年轻男性的真实心态。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 社交打卡与消费替代机制 accDescr: 描绘年轻群体如何通过低成本摆拍取代高额实体消费的闭环。 subgraph Cost["低成本投入"] A["租赁民族服饰 / 购买平价咖啡"] --> B["耗费大量时间精致化妆"] end subgraph Platform["镜头表演与符号消费"] B --> C["精心取景拍照（雪山/网红咖啡馆）"] C --> D["上传小红书 (Xiaohongshu)"] end subgraph Impact["现实经济效应"] D --> E["完成社交资本积累与情感满足"] E -.->|"挤出效应"| F["实体高额度假与深度消费被替代"] end ``` --- ### `25:52` 深圳旋风 24 小时：豪车满街、250 美元奢华酒店与“华子”文化 Dan 并没有直接就男性政治心理展开长篇大论，而是把话锋一转，打趣起坐在镜头对面穿着类似传统中式服装的 Joe，要求刚结束 24 小时深圳之行的 Joe 谈谈第一手见闻。Dan 搬出了一句常在驻华圈流传的俗语：“来中国 24 小时，你觉得自己能写一本书；来了一周，你开始怀疑；住上六年，你发现自己一无所知。” Joe 坦承自己看到的只是冰山一角，但在深圳短短一天的感官冲击极强： 1. **社媒景观具象化**：平时在推特或 TikTok 上看到的酷炫电动车和未来感科技，满大街全是真的； 2. **平价的高端奢华**：入住深圳柏悦酒店（Park Hyatt），体验位居其个人旅行生涯前三或前四名，一晚仅需约 250 美元，而在纽约时代广场周边，250 美元可能只能住进一家破旧不堪的快捷旅馆； 3. **华强北式的数码诱惑**：逛科技商场时花了 15 美元买了一台眼部按摩仪，甚至还差点买下一款能当电动滑板车骑着在机场穿行的大号行李箱，最终因担心锂电池无法带上飞机而作罢； 4. **震撼的办公集群**：整座城市的体量与纽约不相上下，写字楼的高级质感仿佛让每栋楼都媲美摩根大通在曼哈顿新建的豪华总部大厦。 除了硬件与科技，给 Joe 留下最深印象的还有市井的人情味。在纽约，中国香烟正在某些小圈子里变成一种潮流单品，不抽烟的 Joe 特意前往当地烟酒店帮朋友买烟。刚一进门，烟酒摊老板就热情地给所有人沏茶，当场拆开各品牌香烟让他们试抽，这让 Joe 大呼“这才是好生活”。 Dan 随同附和，笑称录完节目后也该去喝点白酒、抽根“华子”（中华香烟的俗称）。但他随后对深圳这座城市做出了批判性拆解：在 Dan 看来，外界常称深圳为“中国的硅谷”，但它在城市形态上其实更像是美国的圣何塞（San Jose）。深圳到处是类似曼哈顿中城的高层建筑和无边无际的产业园区；尽管绿化覆被率极高，但城市被明显分割为东西两截，往返必须依赖主干道和高速公路，从城市规划与宜居设计的角度来看，其实算不上出色。 - **消费性价比对比**：深圳顶级五星级酒店（250 美元/晚）与纽约时代广场同价位低端旅店形成鲜明反差。 - **独特的实体零售体验**：街头烟酒店进门奉茶、当面试抽，展现出与冰冷线上算法截然不同的温情线下生态。 - **城市规划隐忧**：深圳的“圣何塞化”——虽然拥有现代化的办公园区与优美绿化，但过度依赖高速公路连接东西城区，割裂了步行尺度与城市肌理。 ### `30:00` 上海的“安详不满”：极致物质丰裕与青年困境的割裂 Dan Wang 指出，这次回到中国，特别是身处上海时，最强烈的感受是马克思主义者常说的“主要矛盾”——人们身上普遍弥漫着一种“安详的不满”（serene discontent）或倦怠感（ennui）。这种情绪或许在世界各地都有，但在中国显得尤为极致。一方面，物质层面的产品和生活品质已经达到了令人惊叹的水准：机场里随处可见可以骑乘代步的电动行李箱，Joe Weisenthal 戏称这让人联想到《百货战警》（Paul Blart: Mall Cop）里的骑行巡警；上海的餐饮与咖啡文化更是登峰造极，咖啡不再是单纯的美式，而是融合了蜜瓜、玫瑰水等风味的特调，精致得如同无酒精的“咖啡因鸡尾酒”；烘焙业的羊角面包品质足以比肩巴黎、哥本哈根乃至东京；此外，得益于强大的电网、风光与核电基础设施，一辆续航 600 公里的电动车充满电大约只需 12 美元，成本低得惊人。 然而与如此便利、高品质的日常生活形成剧烈反差的，是年轻人乃至普通民众面临的现实压力。官方公布的青年失业率已突破 15%，逼近 20%；大约四分之三的家庭财富被锁定在房产中，而各大核心城市的房价却缩水了 25% 至 30%。在上海，朋友们提到甚至连郊区也开始出现无处可去的流动流浪人群；宏观数据亦显示大量农民工因找不到好工作而回流农村。许多受过大学教育的年轻人（尤其是男性）只能靠送外卖谋生，大批青年选择住在父母家“啃老”。最让 Dan 感到不可思议的是，像上海这样繁华出色的都市，生育意愿却彻底冰封：全国官方总和生育率（TFR）约为 1.0，上海仅为 0.6，与台北、首尔并列，而在上海最富裕的中心区域，官方统计的生育率甚至只有 0.4。在二三十年后，预计一半的人口将超过 65 岁，当整个城市半数人口都在等待退休、年轻劳动力断代时，社会和经济将如何运转？这让 Dan 彻底放弃了以往对人口悬崖所抱有的乐观态度。 - **生活成本与消费体验**：充满 600 公里电动车仅需约 12 美元，街头随处是廉价面食与高端西点咖啡的并存。 - **财富与就业冲击**：居民约 75% 的财富在房地产中，大城市房价普遍回落 25%–30%，大学毕业生涌入外卖配送等零工行业。 - **断崖式生育指标**：中国官方全国 TFR 约为 1.0，上海全市平均为 0.6，极富裕核心街区仅约 0.4。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 中国城市生活的割裂矛盾 accDescr: 展示物质丰裕与经济人口压力之间的鲜明对比 subgraph Prosperity["繁荣与高品质一面"] A["创新与便利<br/>骑行行李箱/便捷充电"] B["高水准消费文化<br/>精致特调咖啡/顶级烘焙"] C["能源与基建红利<br/>约12美元充满600km电车"] end subgraph Stress["青年与家庭的现实困境"] D["资产缩水<br/>房价下跌25%-30%"] E["就业承压<br/>青年失业率逼近20%/送外卖"] F["超低生育陷阱<br/>上海TFR降至0.6至0.4"] end Prosperity <--> Stress ``` ### `35:00` 育儿神话的破灭与东亚“教育军备竞赛”的重压 Joe Weisenthal 提出，目睹这些宏观数据以及中国相对低廉的物价和便利的出行系统后，人们不得不对西方流行的政策主张产生深深的怀疑——此前许多人总以为只要在美国提供免费托育或物质补贴，大家就会愿意组建家庭生孩子，但事实证明，充足的物理与物质便利对挽救生育率几乎无济于事。对此，主持人询问 Dan 对中国乃至东亚生育率崩溃的归因：究竟是因为高强度的加班内卷、严酷的应试教育，还是生活本身的节奏太窒息？ Dan Wang 分析指出，生育率悬崖式下跌在全球具有普遍性，从美洲到非洲都在下滑，东亚绝非例外，只是走在了曲线的最前端。然而，美国约 1.6 至 1.7 的总和生育率与中国的 1.0 之间存在质的鸿沟，指数级萎缩的破坏力截然不同。令人啼笑皆非的是，如今在人口老龄化曲线上走得更远的日本，其 TFR 维持在 1.2 至 1.3 左右，反倒高于中国，而且日本对外国移民的接纳度相对更高。 在剖析东亚特有的社会心理根源时，Dan 认为核心症结依然在于极度严苛的教育文化与层层传导的社会焦虑。在这一套社会逻辑下，家长认为孩子考不上名校这辈子就全毁了；而为了考进名校，就必须进入特定的幼儿园；为了上这所幼儿园，就必须在上海或深圳的特定学区买房置业，如果无法提供这些条件，许多人觉得“还不如干脆不生”。孩子们从童年开始全身心投入教育竞争，毕业后被规训着去争抢金融或科技大厂的体面工作；一旦打通这一关卡，社会和家庭的催逼立刻无缝切换：单身女性被逼问“什么时候结婚？”，结婚无孩者被盘问“什么时候生孩子？”。正是这种周而复始、不断自我复制的系统性社会压力，让年轻人普遍感到窒息，Dan 直言：“在这样的环境里，竟然还有人愿意生孩子，这本身才是个奇迹。” ### `40:00` 华为的“狼性文化”与纯粹的资本主义拼搏精神 对话首先回顾了 Dan Wang 之前做客节目时讨论的著作《Breakneck》，并引申到了 Eva Dou（窦德文）关于华为及其企业文化的专著。主持人指出，华为之所以成为一家非凡的企业，不仅在于拥有大量顶尖工程师，更在于其独特的企业文化——一种带有一丝中国共产党干部作风剪影的严酷精神。华为创始人为公司骨干注入了某种“敢于牺牲”的决绝意识，使他们在其他外国企业纷纷撤离时，依然留守在伊拉克或阿富汗，最终拿下 5G 建设合同。主持人好奇，除了 Dan Wang 在书中所阐述的“工程师思维对决律师思维”（engineers vs. lawyer brain）之外，是否有一种强大的意识形态力量在驱动这些中国科技巨头走向技术前沿？ Dan Wang 对 Eva Dou 的书给予了高度评价，并表示自己曾为该书写过推荐语（blurb）。他指出，华为那种闻名遐迩的“狼性文化”以及向阿富汗等艰苦战线冲锋的作风确实是真实存在的，但他更倾向于将其视作一种典型的“发展中国家拼命奋斗的搞钱心态”（developing country's hustle mindset）。这种文化并非中国独有：一百年前的纽约下东区（Lower East Side），十几个人挤在一间狭窄的房间里，当时的美国人同样怀着对阶层跃升的执念勇往直前。 Dan Wang 认为，如果想体验那种“牙红爪利”（red in tooth and claw）的原始资本主义，就应该去上海、深圳或北京——那里的劳动者之所以没日没夜地拼命，是因为他们坚信前方有值得追逐的改变命运的目标。除了政治体制之外，中国在很多方面都非常刻意地借鉴美国：城市规划更像美国的大马路和汽车文化，甚至连手机充电插头在中国和美国的兼容度都远高于欧洲。这种曾经驱动美国早期的拼搏本能，如今在中国被发挥到了极致。 - **Eva Dou 的华为专著**：生动描绘了华为著名的“狼性文化”，员工在战乱和极端恶劣环境下留守攻坚，拿下阿富汗、伊拉克等地的 5G 订单。 - **原始资本主义的镜像**：Dan Wang 认为中国当下的奋斗狂热与一个世纪前拥挤在下东区拼搏的美国移民如出一辙，其本质是相信奋斗能换取回报的发展中国家式 hustle 精神。 --- ### `43:24` 堡垒中国：大国竞争下的民族主义与发展重心 当被问及当前中国的民族主义情绪温度时，Dan Wang 评价其处于“相当平稳”的状态。从宏观经济来看，高层所追求的战略目标实际上正在逐一实现：其核心诉求是实现国家军工与实体力量的坚固化（militarize and harden），为应对与美国的大国竞争做好准备。Dan Wang 在其著作中将这一章节命名为“堡垒中国”（Fortress China）。 在“堡垒心态”的主导下，国家意志高度聚焦于半导体、动力电池等卡脖子领域的突破，并确保社会底层压力不至于失控引爆。Dan Wang 观察到，尽管房地产市场面临滑坡、青年失业率接近 20%，但最高决策层对目前的整体态势似乎相当泰然自若。因为在大国竞争的战略天平上，芯片自给和电池领跑等高科技目标的实现才是第一位的。 这种大国竞争的叙事在官方舆论中体现得淋漓尽致，例如当年特朗普访华时，中方展示出的强硬与指引姿态。在大国博弈的宏大叙事中，普通人的个体感知往往被边缘化，全社会的廉价电力、海量资本和政策红利被全力倾斜给前 10%、1% 乃至 0.1% 的精英工程师群体，支撑他们去攻克关键技术的高地。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Fortress China Strategic Focus accDescr: Flowchart illustrating the state priority funnel under the Fortress China doctrine subgraph Priorities ["核心战略目标（高层意志）"] A["大国竞争备战 (Hardening)"] B["突破半导体 / 芯片"] C["巩固动力电池与先进制造"] end subgraph Allocation ["资源极化倾斜"] D["廉价能源与充沛资本"] E["顶尖工程师精英 (Top 0.1% - 1%)"] end subgraph Downplayed ["被容忍的次要代价"] F["房地产市场滑坡"] G["青年失业率近 20%"] H["普通个体的日常困境"] end Priorities --> Allocation Priorities -. 相对容忍.-> Downplayed ``` --- ### `45:26` 文化软实力的困局：脱口秀、审查与创造力限制 随后话题转向中国文化软实力的输出困局。尽管像“拉布布”（Labubu）这样的潮玩偶尔掀起波澜，但普遍而言中国缺乏全球级的文化输出。主持人询问究竟需要什么才能释放中国的文化爆发力。Dan Wang 带着一丝幽默回答道：“大麻，加上取消审查，如何？”虽然这显然短期内不可能发生，但它直接点明了创造力受限的症结所在。 Dan Wang 分享了自己在上海考察线下脱口秀（单口喜剧）的真实见闻。尽管脱口秀在线上线下都呈现出繁荣表象，台下观众极其热情、互动积极，但实际的喜剧创作却被紧紧捆绑。他所观看的中国本土脱口秀演员，更像是在讲述一系列精心编造但并未真正发生过的段子小品，而非基于真实生活经验的单口喜剧表达。 其深层原因在于严格的审查制度。大约三年前，由于某知名脱口秀演员在演出中调侃了核心强军口号，导致上海的所有脱口秀俱乐部直接被勒令停业整顿长达约四个月。如今，所有商演和喜剧节目的演员在上台前都必须将逐字逐句的文本稿件提交审查，层层报批后方能演出。在如此严苛的审查框架下，真正的艺术与文化创造力根本无从自然生长。 --- ### `47:30` 规训的连锁反应：从反迷信到“毫无幽默感”的统治精英 主持人联想到历史学者 Joseph Torigian（唐志学）关于中共党史与高层政治的著作，提出一个制度性担忧：后毛泽东时代的政治治理一直在试图维持强硬路线与防止重蹈“文化大革命”覆辙之间走钢丝。近期媒体报道了对体制内沉迷算命、玄学与神秘主义的整肃，这种层层加码的规训极易引发下级对同事的排挤与互害——上级禁绝玄学，下级便会加倍霸凌看星座、抽塔罗牌的普通人。主持人质疑：这种自我复制的规训机制，是否可能让“堡垒中国”在未来再次滑向文革式的狂热？ Dan Wang 调侃主持人构建了一条夸张的“多米诺骨牌”链条：“先是收走所有人的塔罗牌，过不了多久文化大革命就爆发了”。不过，他从另一个视角审视了这一现象，并将其与自己在硅谷的观察相联系。Dan Wang 指出，他在当年的公开信开头就写道：当今硅谷与执政党之间存在一个惊人的共同点——两者都极度自命不凡、严肃沉重，并且“完全丧失了幽默感”（completely humorless）。 Dan Wang 感叹，当今世界的悲哀之处就在于，全球正在被这两种完全缺乏幽默感的人所统治：一端是技术至上、严肃冷酷的硅谷精英，另一端是纪律严密、不苟言笑的执政党官僚。正是这两批毫无幽默感的人群，正在深度重塑着人类社会的未来走向。 ### `50:00` 中国文化输出的短板与自下而上活力的缺失 王丹（Dan Wang）反思了算法推荐如何全面主导大众的消费行为与日常思维，并指出硅谷与中国在这一维度上都打造了极其出色的科技产品，但产品力的强大并不能直接等同于文化输出。虽然中国制造的品质正在大幅跃升，未来关于中国品牌的刻板认知也会逐步改善，但中国的品牌营销与叙事能力一直未能同步跟上。更关键的问题在于，若审视那种由民间自下而上（bottom-up）孕育的文化生态，中国在国际文化输出方面的表现仍然显得极为迟滞和受限。 相比之下，韩国凭借 K-pop、《鱿鱼游戏》（Squid Game）等流行文化掀起席卷全球的浪潮。王丹指出，目前在美国大学里，学生选修韩语的热情甚至已经反超了选修中文的人数。因此，无论中国未来在产业端取得多大成就，单纯就其庞大的人口规模与惊人的经济体量而言，其文化软实力的辐射范围在各项衡量指标下都处于明显的“严重不及格”（underperformer）状态。 - **韩流与中文教育的对比**：韩国凭借大众文娱产品在欧美年轻人中掀起韩语学习热潮，其选课增长速度已超过大学中的中文学习。 - **产品力与品牌叙事的断层**：中国在硬件与供应链上虽已处于前沿，但缺乏令人产生深刻情感共鸣的全球性文化品牌符号。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 经济体量与文化输出的背离 accDescr: 对比韩国与中国在经济基础、文化生成机制及全球文化影响力上的差异。 subgraph KOR["韩国模式"] K1["自下而上的流行文化"] --> K2["K-pop / 影视剧输出"] K2 --> K3["全球文化辐射与韩语学习热"] end subgraph CHN["中国模式"] C1["庞大经济体量与硬核制造"] --> C2["强势的硬件与算法产品"] C2 --> C3["自下而上文化受限 / 品牌叙事滞后"] end ``` --- ### `51:24` 告别王丹与彩云之南的旅行畅想 节目进入尾声，主持人乔·维森塔尔（Joe Weisenthal）与崔西·阿洛威（Tracy Alloway）向王丹致谢，称赞他精准捕捉到了当下中国社会的真实“氛围”（vibes），是一位名副其实的“中国通”。 三人在轻松幽默的气氛中打趣畅想未来的中国之旅：大家约定一定要找机会来一次公路自驾游，去云南或藏区租上牦牛拍照、穿戴起藏族传统服饰打卡，手里端着荔枝咖啡，再叼上一根烟，亲身完整体验一次中国社交媒体上最火爆的网红拍照套路。 --- ### `52:12` 全球共有的“静默不满”与文化大趋同 在王丹离线后的复盘环节，崔西与乔感叹这期节目与以往截然不同——他们没有深究电池技术的秘密配方，也没有探讨超级基建工程的建设逻辑，而是聚焦在脱口秀、网红经济与社会日常情绪上。崔西提到，虽然中美两国的脱口秀表演环境与审查边界差异巨大（尽管美国在这方面似乎也在某种轨迹上演变），但两国年轻人所流露出的社会倦怠感却惊人地相似。中国年轻人身上那种被王丹称为“静默的不满”（quiet discontent）的情绪状态，与美国当下的社会迷茫形成了奇妙的对照。 乔随即联想到自己关注的一位吉尔吉斯斯坦脱口秀女演员，她同样在 Instagram 上频繁调侃中亚各族群男性与女性之间的日常刻板印象与微小摩擦。这说明不论身在何处，人类的底层心理与日常表达模式都有着共通的模版。 随后，两人深入探讨了跨越不同社会形态的“全球文化趋同”（global cultural convergence）： - **人口结构的共同危机**：生育率断崖式暴跌被普遍视作一种现代病理，而东亚社会因多重因素叠加，似乎只是在这条轨迹上走得更远。 - **屏幕与手机的异化力量**：手机沉迷、网红打卡生态对现实空间的侵蚀在全球无差别上演。 - **互联网民族主义情绪**：无论是中国网络空间日益浓厚的民族主义倾向，还是美国社交媒体上的极化与排外言论，底层机理如出一辙。 - **物质繁荣未能消解的存在主义虚无**：过去数十年来，中国在减贫与物质财富创造方面取得了人类历史上最罕见的奇迹，彻底改变了亿万人的生活水平；然而即便在如此显著的物质丰裕跃升之后，中国年轻人所复制出的精神疲惫、迷茫与倦怠感，却与经济停滞的西方社会完全相同。正如乔所感叹的，这是一个值得所有人“静下心来细细品味与深思”（a point to sit with for a moment）的深刻矛盾。 --- ### `54:15` 节目收尾与商业广告 主持人崔西与乔对听众致谢并宣布节目结束，提醒听众关注彭博社的《Odd Lots》每日简讯、播客频道以及官方 Discord 交流社区，并笑称如果大家想看主持人和王丹一起去云南公路旅行，请在播客平台上留下好评。 播客末尾播放了数则商业赞助广告： - **4imprint**：推广定制促销礼品、企业服饰与带有 360 度满意保障的品牌周边制作服务。 - **Optum**：介绍其如何利用数据与医疗科技整合患者护理、药房管理与就诊流程，旨在降低处方药成本并提升全人关怀体系。 - **密歇根州经济发展署（Team Michigan）**：面向初创团队与跨国企业推介密歇根州的创新商业生态、多元人才库及工作与生活平衡优势。 ## Notable quotes > `07:15` 全球最伟大的城市之一 — 丹·王 > `24:00` 这些女士并没有伤害任何人，于我无损，她们开心就好。 — 丹·王 > `25:52` 来中国 24 小时，你觉得自己能写一本书；来了一周，你开始怀疑；住上六年，你发现自己一无所知。 — 丹·王 > `25:52` 这才是好生活 — 乔·威森塔尔 > `30:00` 安详的不满 — 丹·王 > `35:00` 在这样的环境里，竟然还有人愿意生孩子，这本身才是个奇迹。 — 丹·王 > `45:26` 大麻，加上取消审查，如何？ — 丹·王 > `47:30` 先是收走所有人的塔罗牌，过不了多久文化大革命就爆发了 — 丹·王 > `47:30` 完全丧失了幽默感 — 丹·王 > `52:12` 静下心来细细品味与深思 — 乔·威森塔尔 ## Mentioned 丹·王（Dan Wang）, 乔·威森塔尔（Joe Weisenthal）, 特雷西·阿洛韦（Tracy Alloway）, 山姆·恩莱特（Sam Enright）, 窦德文（Eva Dou）, 唐志学（Joseph Torigian）, 彭博社（Bloomberg）, 胡佛研究所（Hoover Institution）, 华为（Huawei）, 《极速狂飙：中国工程化未来的探索》（Breakneck: China’s Quest to Engineer the Future）, 《Odd Lots》, 《鱿鱼游戏》（Squid Game）, 小红书, 抖音 / TikTok, Instagram, Twitter, 京东, 淘宝, 深圳柏悦酒店（Park Hyatt Shenzhen）, 4imprint, Public.com, 拉布布（Labubu）, 中华香烟（华子） ## Video description <p>There's this weird contradiction that hovers almost all conversations regarding the Chinese economy. On the one hand, the growth and rising material prosperity is undeniable. And of course, Chinese industrial giants are at the frontier in all kinds of things, like batteries. On the other hand, you always hear about a soft domestic market, and a general state of unease among workers who fear that precarity is around the corner. So how is this contradiction explained? And how does it affect day-to-day life? On this episode, we bring back one of our regular guests Dan Wang, who recently returned from a long trip to Shanghai. We discuss his observations, the general ennui he saw, the signs of domestic weakness, and the way in which phone culture is reshaping Chinese society.<br><br>Read more: <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/opinion/articles/2026-06-24/it-s-too-soon-to-breathe-easy-on-china-s-economy?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article">It&rsquo;s Too Soon to Breathe Easy on China&rsquo;s Economy</a><br><br>Only Bloomberg.com subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox, plus unlimited access to the site and app. <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast" data-link-cookie="1" data-destination="https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast">bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots</a></p><p>See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.</p> [Source](https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/8a94442e-5a74-4fa2-8b8d-ae27003a8d6b/6f683bb0-bf70-4fb7-8c81-b47a013f78c2/audio.mp3?in_playlist=982f5071-765c-403d-969d-ae27003a8d83)

[7:15] 丹·王: 全球最伟大的城市之一 [24:00] 丹·王: 这些女士并没有伤害任何人，于我无损，她们开心就好。 [25:52] 丹·王: 来中国 24 小时，你觉得自己能写一本书；来了一周，你开始怀疑；住上六年，你发现自己一无所知。 [25:52] 乔·威森塔尔: 这才是好生活 [30:00] 丹·王: 安详的不满 [35:00] 丹·王: 在这样的环境里，竟然还有人愿意生孩子，这本身才是个奇迹。 [45:26] 丹·王: 大麻，加上取消审查，如何？ [47:30] 丹·王: 先是收走所有人的塔罗牌，过不了多久文化大革命就爆发了 [47:30] 丹·王: 完全丧失了幽默感 [52:12] 乔·威森塔尔: 静下心来细细品味与深思

[0:00] Tracy Alloway: heroic act of restraint [6:45] Dan Wang: Ireland, a country of 6 million people, has about 1 million immigrants. China, 1.4 billion, has about 1 million immigrants. [6:45] Dan Wang: desert steppe city with Stalinist characteristics [20:00] Dan Wang: perform for the 'Gram [20:00] Tashi Delek [35:00] Dan Wang: If I had to boil this down to one thing... the one thing has to be the educational culture. [40:00] Joe Weisenthal: wolf culture [40:00] Dan Wang: developing country hustle mindset [40:00] Dan Wang: Fortress China [45:00] Dan Wang: marijuana and the dropping of censorship

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When you're running a business, the best days are the ones where priorities stay on track. For midsize and large companies, risk can affect multiple parts of the organization at once, from property and liability to cyber and regulatory challenges. At that level managing risk becomes an ongoing discipline At the Hartford the focus is on helping businesses manage risk before it turns into something more disruptive And when losses do happen, that work is paired with insurance coverage shaped by years of underwriting, risk engineering, and claims experience. Learn more at thehartford.com slash risk mitigation. Policies provided by Hartford Fire Insurance Company and its property and casualty affiliates, Hartford, Connecticut. Bloomberg Audio Studios. Podcasts. Radio. News. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. Joe, I heard, I might have heard, you know, just a little bit, that you went to China for the first time. I haven't been that obnoxious about it. I haven't like, no, okay. Can I just say one thing? I didn't like do, I've posted about it. I've talked about it. I have, I did not come home and do like a 20 tweet thread about like China's like future in the world which I consider myself to be a heroic heroic act of restraint So you not a China expert after your one day in Shenzhen I fully admit that I not a China hand after one day And I will also say I can't do that anyway because I got over the border on a tourist visa. So I'm not even, you know. You know the China expert pipeline, right? How does it work? So you got to, first of all, you have to go to China and be an English teacher for a few months. And then you have to move there and become a China consultant. Yes. And then you have to start a YouTube channel and start calling yourself Joe Y or Lau Weisenthal. Someone said Joe Shandau would be a good signification of my name, which I thought was decent. You know, that actually almost happened to me. There's a different version of my life. So when I was in college at University of Texas, I saw a poster on the campus. Now, this was Taiwan, but I would have learned the language. It said, come be an English speaker in Taiwan. So I was like, I didn't have any plan for my life or anything like that. And I called the number and I didn't have a cell phone at the time because we just we just shared a house phone. And I called the number and I left it. And then the person on the other side called back. But one of my roommates answered the call and ended up getting the job and going to Taiwan And I always think about that version of my life where I wouldn be doing odd lots because I was home and answered that call And would I be one of those people that helped American businesses source parts in Southern China What a segue, Joe. Yeah. Well, you reminded me that there is this, one of the various versions of my life, that that was actually kind of one of them. All right. Well, I'm sure you have your own impressions of China for the first time. I'm based on 24 hours. Based on 24 hours. I know you do because you did tweet about it a lot. But there's someone else we talked to and we want to get general China impressions. Take the temperature on the vibes in China, I guess. And that is the one and only Dan Wong. He's been on the show a number of times before. He is, of course, the author of Breakneck, China's Quest to Engineer the Future. Also a fellow at Stanford's Hoover Institution. So, Dan, thank you so much for coming back on All Thoughts. Tracy, it's great to be back home. Oh, thank you. So, vibes in China. Well, first of all, was this your first time going back in a couple years? It's sort of been my first time going back. Give us the timeline of when you left. I left at the start of 2023, right after the total collapse of zero COVID. And then I was back in Utah. [5:00] and just finishing my book, writing in the mountains in the south of the province. Sounds so nice. And then this time I spent about a month in China between Shanghai for two weeks and then Yunnan for two more weeks. I think the big news when I was in China was there were two big things happening in New York. One was that the Knicks won some sort of sports ball. And then Joe Weisenthal... That's the other thing I heard a little bit about, just a little. Yeah, and then Joe Weisenthal went to Shenzhen. That was big news on Twitter that day. I watched the Knicks game from a rooftop bar in Shenzhen. The game where they clinched it, Game 5, which is wild. Just to give us your background. I mean, we've talked about your book and stuff like that. You're Canadian, right? Yes. So that's why the red shirt today, you're wearing maple leaf colors to sort of represent your Canadian heritage on the podcast. Absolutely. Okay. I just wanted to establish that. Where did you go? I'm no expert because I only spent 24 hours in one of the country's most advanced cities. But where were you? Yeah well I lived in the three major big zones of China I spent two years living in Hong Kong where I played board games with this new entrant to Hong Kong namely Tracy Alloway Remember all of these board games that we used to play Oh that was so much fun We were in all of these cafes And I spent two years living in Hong Kong. And I thought, well, this really isn't enough real China. And so then I moved to Beijing for two years. Then I decided that was way too much real China. And then I decided I should move to Shanghai. Can I just ask a quick question? I don't know anything about how like Chinese immigration policy or visa policy works as someone who is ethnically Chinese, but a Canadian passport holder, what is required to establish semi-residency either on like a part full-time or sort of part-time work or whatever? How do you, are there any restrictions? How easy is that process? If you're a Chinese of Chinese heritage, it's somewhat easier to visit China. There are these specific visa categories, namely family visit, which gets you multiple entry, probably for 10 years. That makes it really easy for someone like me to visit grandma. But I don't think for any other Chinese heritage people, it becomes much easier They not necessarily favored to actually live in China And when I was visiting China at this time what was really striking was how many more Russians and Russian you hear in the streets of Shanghai. You see more Arab folks walking around, presumably doing business deals, and how few Americans you hear on the streets as well. And so this has been like a really stark shift in the composition of the foreign people there. And then there's also just been a stunning collapse in immigration to China. And so this Irish guy, Sam Enright, came up with this figure to establish that China and Ireland, China has slightly fewer immigrants than Ireland does. So Ireland, a country of 6 million people, has about 1 million immigrants. China, 1.4 billion, has about 1 million immigrants. And so these are the sort of stunning things where it takes a few more Joe Weisenthal's for visiting to prop up the foreign market there. Lau Weisenthal, we're calling him. Lau Weisenthal. Lau Weisenthal. Yeah, sounds good. Why did you decide to go to Shanghai and not Beijing? And how much should I read into that as like a shift in the center of power within China or like more focus on tech and finance Yeah I love Shanghai Shanghai is I think one of the great cities of the world And Beijing is not Beijing is not I really like Beijing It has that sort of like northern frontier feel I really enjoy it But I been to Shanghai too and it is very impressive Well, Beijing is this desert step city with Stalinist characteristics. And, you know, there's kind of this threat of apocalypse that hangs over there. roads down? I don't love the ring roads. These streets are way too long and they're way too wide. And I was in Beijing when once this dust storm swept through the city where everything turned yellow. I thought I woke up sick that day, but I guess everything was yellow that day. So there's some charm definitely to Beijing. But when we were living in Shanghai, we were calling ourselves the Paris of the East and we were calling Paris the Shanghai of the West. And then we were calling Beijing, Western Pyongyang. Why would you visit West Korea? So these are the sort of things where we are happily dismissive of the Beijing life. There's definitely parts of the Beijing life which feels much more intellectual. The Communist Party really is much more centered there. The great universities are much more centered there. Shanghai prizes much more convenience and comfort. And that's in part because the French [10:00] literally built a major section of the city. You have these leafy boulevards. You have these cafes everywhere. It's super walkable. You're never that far from a subway station. Which city? Shanghai is much, much better. And then Beijing was essentially designed by Stalin. So it can't be all that pleasant. I will say Beijing is the only place in the entire world where I ever developed eczema. I had it for like three months just in Beijing. Never had it ever again. I have these odd headaches that come at random times when I was living in Beijing. And that was the only city where I actually had to experience that. That's so strange. If we ever do a live episode of the podcast in China, I guess we don't have to do Beijing. I don't know. You kind of... I would prefer Beijing to Shanghai. Shanghai might actually be the smarter choice because our audience is probably bigger there. But I really like Beijing. I don't know. I like the food. In my 24 hours, and you've talked about this, but in my 24 hours, there are many things that stood out. But the one thing that's... And I, you know, Here I'm going to commit an act of modest journalism. The one thing that stood out that I can't get out of my head from visiting China that I saw all kinds of – I had great food. I saw the electronics mart, et cetera. Tell us a little bit more More than anything else me OK so we sitting here The three of us are talking I physically in pain right now like that I haven checked my phone five times like that in this conversation Like it's very difficult for me to like go. We've been talking for nine minutes so far. So normally I would have checked my phone five minutes, but I could do it. But like I have never been in a culture, in a city, et cetera, in which there was more just like constant phone use. Like that is the one thing I still just cannot get out of my head. I went to a nice dinner. Everyone with their screen up, you know, which would be very, I think, like if you did that in New York, that would be considered really rude, I think, to have your phone. And yet, Joe. No, I said like to have your phone face up on the table. I was like really stunned. And you've talked about this, too. And I'm sort of like kind of want to talk about phone culture. OK, let's talk about phone culture. Joe, what is the right number of times to check your phone in 10 minutes? Is it five? Is it 500? I don't know. Yeah. This is great. I'm totally up. Because the thing was, I was like, oh, I don't want to be rude, but I want to take some pictures. Maybe I want to tweet something. But I don't want to be rude. And then I would look around and everyone was on their phone. So I was like, I guess it's not rude. I felt great I loved it I am much more New York culture Stop looking at your phone man Let have a debate about this Joe Yeah no great So you know where do we need to check What so important on the phone that we can talk to each other about face-to-face right now? But, no, I mean, look, I'm glad that we have this conversation where the expectation is that we have our phones down, but, like, was my... When you went back to China recently, did you have the same sense that I did? Yeah, totally. I think that a lot of good friends would be around the table and then they would start pulling their phone and what are they doing on their phone it's actually totally trivial stuff they're kind of just checking the progress of their jd.com or alibaba deliveries they're kind of scrolling through some photos that they've just taken and deleting a few selecting a few and it's like you know not everyone is able to get together all the time so you know is that the most important thing right now definitely phone culture has broken Joe Weisenthal-Lauwey's brain. Yeah. But hasn't it broken like hundreds of millions of people's brains across the world? And there is something, I think, not to be a boomer about this. No, that's fine. That's great. Important about attention. But what do you think? As much as I guilty of it I don think that the always checking of phones is a healthy part of New York society or American society I think I am participating in something that is unhelpful and not pro every time I check my phone in a group environment, or even when I'm alone, I should be reading a book instead. And so I was just stunned by the degree of like, and then you walk into a store and every store in the mall has a girl live streaming on whatever the equivalent of TikTok is of what's happening in the store. The degree of phoneness was wild to me. As someone who is often the victim of Joe's phone addiction, I will say it does make me sad when I'm talking to you and you literally leave the conversation mid-sentence to go take a photo of someone's T-shirt and tweet it, which happened last week. Yeah, Tracy, you and I are going to have dinner and Joe can be off on the side, like tweeting like a toddler. And then you and I can have like a much more serious conversation. What do you think? This is why I'm actually glad I have this job, because it's an hour at a time throughout various times of the week, which I don't look at my phone. Let's get back on track. Let's do China. Okay. How much of the Chinese phone obsession? I'm thinking how to phrase this, but how much of it is just because your entire life is basically oriented? [15:00] on your phone now. And I know we could say something similar about the US, but I feel like, you know, payment systems, online shopping are even more endemic in China than they are here. Yeah, well, so this is where we should praise, you know, what enables the phone culture. First of all, let's say you have this amazing mobile infrastructure where 5G is truly everywhere. And, you know, it is kind of odd to me that you head into pockets of New York, namely the subway, as well as many other places, you know, kind of remote parts. And you just kind of drop out of cell access. And I kind of wish that we had mobile access everywhere. And there is kind of this broader phenomenon in East Asia where people have super long commutes on the subway. Let's say like an hour to get into Tokyo, you know, an hour to get into central Shanghai or Shenzhen. And, you know, having mobile games and having phones is kind of just a great way to pass the time in your cool, well-connected subway. So there's some good things here. And you have basically a lot more apps that are highly functional. You're able to order absolutely anything you want into your door You know 15 minutes you can get an amazing croissant And so there are some good parts here But let also get into the bad parts So the bad parts are when you on when you in China you kind of constantly expected to be on for your boss all the time. And so, you know, if we were in China, we have like three producers sitting behind us. We're going to have Joe Weisenthal-Lauwai texting them all the time about, you know, pick up this or that. And so I think that is less pleasant. It does. Sorry, just to jump. It does seem self-reinforcing, which is that if everyone is on their phone, everyone then becomes expected to text back within the minute, which means you can't opt out of always looking at your phone. Anyway, keep going. This is the other thing. So I know you're always on your phone. And so when I WhatsApp you and you don't immediately reply, I get insulted. Just DM me. Just Twitter DM me. Anyway, keep going. But yes, Tracy is she's like, I know you're looking at your phone. Why haven't you responded yeah yeah he has a very limited like bandwidth in which to reply i know i can go on just keep talking about i can text weisenthal like in 30 seconds i know he ought to reply so why isn't he replying within three minutes but so i mean the good thing is that you can always reach your friends and that's always good too but myself i think i'm much more of an american whatever european about this i just silence all of my notifications my friends can really reach me i think it better that way and i think i prefer it not to be reached whenever at anyone else pleasure But you know if you need to call someone you know they almost always going to pick up Thank you. so you can find the right fit for any audience, purpose, or budget. You can customize it all. Your logo, your message, your look. And many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point, so you can make a real impact while staying on budget. Plus, you'll get expert help, fast turnaround times, and their 360-degree guarantee. So you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right. Whatever your goal, 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match. Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint 4imprint 4certain Support for this show comes from public If you actively involved in your portfolio you probably catch yourself repeating the same actions Buying the dip, manually sweeping idle cash, putting on a hedge. On public, you can now create AI agents that handle all these tasks on your behalf. Just describe what you want to do in plain English. Like, if the VIX hits 25, buy a put option on the S&P 500. or if my cash balance goes above $20,000, move the excess into my direct index. You approve of the workflow and your agent handles the rest. Monitoring the market, watching for your conditions, and executing your strategies exactly as defined. An investing platform driven by your intent, not just your clicks. You can also get full read and write access to your account via the public API. Go to public.com slash market and fund your account in five minutes or less. That's public.com slash market. So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about AI. [20:00] At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now, a global workforce of 300,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94% of common questions. Not noise. Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business. IBM. Talk about influencers. Because when we were in Shenzhen, at one point, the guy who I was going around with was like, oh, this is a really nice new apartment. It's like all the influencers live there. Talk about influencer culture there. Yeah, well, this is also one of these things that make China increasingly highly unpleasant to me now. The extent to which everyone is just photographing themselves as kind of the main thing. So I usually go visit Shanghai and Yunnan, which are, I think, without a doubt, the two most beautiful parts of China. And the good thing about being in beautiful parts is that you have a wonderful city, you have this wonderful province. But what sort of distresses me is how many cafes in Shanghai are just places where young people overwhelmingly women park to take photos of themselves Perhaps a group of seven might order one or two coffees to the disappointment of the cafe owners and then they park themselves there for like an hour or so taking photographs. And so many of these Shanghai city blocks have been almost re-architected to be photo spots, whether these are outdoors or whether these are restaurants. And so, you know, that's just a lot of photography. Have you noticed something like this? Oh, yeah. I mean, I would say this is described as the West Village in large part. For sure. For sure. I still remember the very first time I went to Dominic Ansel in New York. Oh, yeah, yeah. And everyone was taking photos of the food. And I was like, oh, like food is now performance art, basically. But OK, so is influencer culture that's standing in the way of Xi Jinping's drive to increase consumption? Is that what we're saying? I think that must be a part of it, because at some point you wonder the extent to which phone culture becomes a substitute for real spending on holiday. So as I just mentioned, you know, you have cafes, you may have cocktail bars in which a gaggle of people come over and then buy two drinks and then they spend the rest of their time photographing themselves Maybe you can say that the constant photography is a boon for live streaming And so that promotes some aspect of consumption But I think overwhelmingly people are substituting away real experiences to, you know, let's say have like a super nice, you know, travel experience when they could just photograph themselves. Because the other part of being in Yunnan, which is in the Southwest, this is the region where my family is from. You know, this is highly mountainous. It's essentially Tibet in the north. It's part of the Himalayas, literally, in the north. And then in the south is basically a giant rainforest. And in between, there are basically 25 of China's nearly 60 official ethnic groups. And so what these richer, again, overwhelmingly girls from Shanghai, Beijing, Shenzhen would do is that they go to Yunnan, dress in this ethnic garb, pretend that they're Tibetan for a day, take some snow-covered mountains as a backdrop. There are parts of New York, Miami, LA that have been re-architected, but I think phone culture is much more extreme. But Joe, did you consider dressing up as a Tibetan? No but I know that if Tracy and I ever go to China together I going to have to take a lot of photos Tracy going gonna make me do that for sure absolutely for her instagram you a good you a decent photographer so you know it it helps you know i'm maybe part tibetan myself this is part of the family lore when the tibetans come up to me they always say tasha delay um and so you know maybe i you know just their hello standard greeting um and you know maybe the three of us can do an awesome photo shoot this is one time i think this is now we're going to do a road trip and we're going to make this happen. I would actually do that trip. You describe this as mostly girls and this is also a phenomenon in the West. But why, like, what is the ultimate goal of taking all these photos and sticking them on social media? Is it, you know, dating? Is it building a professional brand? Is it just socializing with your online friends? You know, Tracy, I don't look at these photos, so it's only speculation for me. But I think it has to be all the same phenomenon where women everywhere feel like they have to perform for the gram or in the case of China for the Xiaohongshu. And I think the added layer in China is just that it's kind of a cheap way to have fun and to establish that you've been there. And these are kind of beautiful things and you do spend a lot of effort on makeup. And so I think it is... [25:00] be kind of fun, but so why not? So when I am sometimes upset by the photo culture, I remind myself, you know, these ladies aren't harming me. So when I'm no skin off my nose, they should have a great time. They're not harming you. No skin off your nose. On the other hand, I don't really know much about like, how are your how are your male relatives doing in China? And the only reason I ask is actually because I'm aware that in Korea, which is a totally separate country, people talk about the gender gap in politics here in the US, that the gender gap in politics in Korea specifically is extraordinarily large, and that the sort of four-chanification of politics in Korea seems like even far more advanced than it is in the West. There's no electoral politics in China, so we don't really get to read articles about how these feelings express themselves at the ballot the same way. But how would the Dan Wongs, your cousins or friends, male friends, how are they feeling? Yeah well I think you guys have done this remarkable job of keeping this conversation on track but I think we need to get this back on track and talk about my male pseudo Joe Weisenthal slight time in China And I notice, Joe, for those watching on camera, you have a Chinese ethnic garb yourself. You have an anti-shirt wear on you. So we're going to ask you to talk a little bit more about your impressions, 24 hours though they may be. And I'm just going to offer one more proverb, a well-known ancient Chinese proverb here about visiting China. So everyone knows that you visit China for 24 hours, you feel like you can write a book. Visit China for a week, you start having some doubts. You live six years in China and you realize you know nothing. So what's the book in you, Joe, that you're going to give to us? I don't mean to brag, but I actually do not have, I feel very viscerally that I only got the tiniest slice, and maybe just because I've been doing media for a while, I really do not feel like I could say anything gooseful about China from 24 hours. Just tell us how you felt. I mean I had a great time All the cars are real all the cars that we see on social media they all real The food is all great I spent a night in the Park Hyatt which was probably one of the top three or four hotels I ever spent a night in And it was $250, which would be like the grime-est hotel off of Times Square. But there was just 24 hours. Did you see some cool tech stuff as well? I went to the tech mall and I bought for $15 this eye massager. um i almost bought a suitcase that could double as a scooter for a grown adult person and ride around the airport but i was worried about like the batteries and like i wish you'd gotten that i know my son would have loved it like if i told him if i showed him a video he'd be so upset that i didn't get that for him but like you know all of this like basically in the 24 hours it was like all the social media stuff that like i'm inundated by like i was like oh all of it is at least in This one city, incredibly advanced, an entire city as big as New York where all the offices are about to feel like the new J.P. Morgan headquarters. Like, it was extraordinary. What did you not like about this experience? Walking around? No, I liked it. I actually didn't. I found it to be a very pleasant 24 hours including I went and bought some cigarettes for friends I don smoke but some friends do and currently in new york chinese cigarette chinese cigarettes are very highly yeah this is the thing for sure what's the brand well i got a chungwa i don't know but there's i bought a bunch of other brands i'll show you the box i mean they don't have the labels on we're gonna go out for a smoke after this yeah that's fine um but like when i went to the cigarette and liquor dealer like you walk in and the first thing you just starts pouring tea for everyone and opening packs for you to try. I was like, this is great. This is a good life. Yeah. But you're the guest, so you've got to tell us. Liquor and cigarettes are a good life. Yeah, no, after this, we're going to drink some Bai Jiu. We're going to have a Hua Zi, which is kind of how you refer to a cigarette there. And then, so I don't love Shenzhen. I really feel like Shenzhen is America's answer to San Jose. We talk about Shenzhen as the Silicon Valley of China, and I think it's the San Jose. It's these big midtown buildings, it's a lot of office parks. The nice thing about it is it's really green, but the parts of the city are really centered between the east and the west. To get between them, you have to get on this big highway. Urban design is not great. [30:00] Shanghai is still much, much better. And I think that when people are in China, I think the central contradiction, as the Marxists like to call it now, is that what I feel on this trip is that people have a bit of a serene discontent with their lives. Ennui, sort of. Sorry? Ennui, kind of. Maybe everyone does, but I think it is a little bit more extreme in China. So on the one hand, The products are really, really amazing. So you have these amazing suitcase rollers that you can sit and roll around. No, it's all real. Paul Blart, Mall Cop, Joe Weisenthal, Lao Wai, airport roller guy. And when I was in Shanghai this time, I was really struck by the amazing food culture there. I mean, just in terms of, you know, the coffees now all have these infusions that make them look almost like caffeinated cocktails without the alcohol. So, you know, why not have your coffee being infused with some sort of honeydew melon and rose water, all these amazing things. And they taste really good. And I thinking oh why am I getting a standard Americana when I can have something like this The croissants are really really amazing I love baked goods And so you know the Shanghainese croissants are like approaching Parisian maybe Copenhagen levels of quality Tokyo levels of quality I'm, you know, I spend a lot of time talking about how China builds a ton of electrical power, solar, wind, nuclear, etc. And then I learned how much it costs to charge your electric vehicle to the full range of about 600 kilometers. It's about like $12 to have essentially a full tank of gas. And that's kind of totally amazing. And so people are able to have a really good life. They have access to cheap noodles. Cities are amazing. And yet and yet, take a look at how people are, especially young people. Youth unemployment, according to the official data, is north of 15%, trending close to 20%. The main source of wealth for most people is parked in property. Something like three quarters of the wealth is in property. Property has fallen by 25% to 30% across all these big cities. This is the first time in Shanghai where friends have told us that there are sort of these homeless people wandering through the outskirts of Shanghai because all of these migrant workers may have nowhere to go and you based on all this macro data um you know migrants are kind of returning to the countryside because they can't find great jobs the college educated young people mostly men are doing delivery drivers because they can't find great jobs everyone's kind of all these young people are sort of living with their parents which is kind of a fine lifestyle And for me, the most amazing fact about China now is that Shanghai is such an amazing city and no one wants to have kids. No one wants to have kids. So the national TFR rate in China, and this is the official data, is 1.0. And Shanghai is 0.6, which is on par with Taipei and Seoul. And there are aspects, the richest parts of Shanghai, the official TFR is like 0.4. And so how can this function when in a couple of years, in something like, I think, 20 years, half the population will be north of 65? How can the city function when half the people expect to be retired? And how can the country function when there's no young people? And this is something that I used to be a little bit more sanguine about the demographic cliff. This is where you know are we going to see a completely different China in 15 years That much less sanguine about that of options, from on-trend apparel and premium drinkware to tech, totes, and giveaways, so you can find the right fit for any audience, purpose, or budget. You can customize it all, your logo, your message, your look, and many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point so you can make a real impact while staying on budget. Plus, you'll get expert help, fast turnaround times, and their 360-degree guarantee, so you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right. Whatever your goal, 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match. Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint.com. 4imprint, 4certain. Support for this show comes from public.com. If you're actively involved in your portfolio, you probably catch yourself repeating [35:00] Same actions, buying the dip, manually sweeping idle cash, putting on a hedge. On public, you can now create AI agents that handle all these tasks on your behalf. Just describe what you want to do in plain English. Like, if the VIX hits 25, buy a put option on the S&P 500. Or, if my cash balance goes above $20,000, move the excess into my direct index. You approve of the workflow, and your agent handles the rest. monitoring the market, watching for your conditions, and executing your strategies exactly as defined. 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Seeing these global stats and being at a place where it's like, OK, it's not so expensive and transport is very easy with children, etc. And yet still, you know, fertility is collapsing like that. Unfortunately, it definitely makes me more skeptical of a lot of the claims that like, oh, if only we had like free child care in the US or whatever, that that would like make people more inclined to have families and stuff like that. Like it doesn't seem like these physical material affordances actually do much on that front. Well, I was going to ask, Dan, what's your theory for declining birth rates in China? Because you hear all these different things about, you know, like the work culture is too intense. The educational culture is too intense. Life in general is too intense. What do you think? Yeah. Yes And I mean the first thing to say is that China is not an outlier in East Asia There not an outlier anywhere It ahead of the curve But there not a place in the world including Africa including Central and South America etc where we don see fertility rates basically falling off a cliff Yeah, but I think there may even be a qualitative difference between TFR of what is the U.S. now, 1.6, 1.7, and 1.0. And so the exponential math here really starts doing their punishing math. So in East Asia, Japan is actually now kind of something like 1.2, 1.3. and they have they're further down the demographic curve but they're have a higher tfr at the moment and they're much more open to immigrants and so you know should we be more optimistic about japan or china you know the japan is more open to immigrants and has high higher tfr so maybe can i just yeah on a statistical methodology question does that tf does the national japanese TFR include the immigrant population which presumably which might have a higher TFR than the ethnically Japanese population Surely But I suspect that the immigrants are not that big a part of the population really to affect that And, you know, I think the East Asian problem, if I had to boil this down to one thing, and obviously life is complex, but the one thing has to be the educational culture. Where people feel like, you know, if their kid can't get into the right university, then their life is over. and therefore they need to get into the right kindergarten to get into the right university. And if they can't live in this particular section of Shanghai or Shenzhen, then they might as well not have a kid at all. And I think it's also worth acknowledging all of these other pressures that families pile on the kids that your life is so oriented towards education. And then after education, it's so oriented towards getting a great job in finance or tech. And then once you've checked off that box. The parents are telling you, women face only one question in China. When are you going to marry to the unmarried? When are you going to have kids to those without kids? All these social pressures that keep reproducing themselves, I think it's a wonder that anyone has children. This actually gets to something that I regret not talking about. It's [40:00] The last time we had you on the podcast, which was last year, and we were talking about your book, Breakneck. And around the same time that I read your book, I also read Eva Doe's book about Huawei and the culture they had there. And one thing that she really emphasizes in that book and about this extraordinary company is this sort of, yes, of course, they have plenty of brilliant engineers, etc. But they also have this culture that probably is a sort of silhouette of CCP culture, maybe is a way to put it, and how the company's founder instilled a certain willingness to die within the company's cadres. And they would therefore win the contract to build 5G in Iraq or win the contract to build 5G in Afghanistan because they would not leave the country while everyone else would. And there are these certain call like that strikes me as like a cultural change or a difference in corporate culture that is not simply about, say, the engineers versus lawyer brain that you discuss in your book. And so when you talk about some of these like intense cultural forces about getting into the right school et cetera when you read about this sort of like imbuing of the Huawei ideology within the company et cetera is there something else going on that drives these companies to the technological frontier, to success beyond just the sort of engineering mindset that you discuss? They're an ideological component. Yeah, well, Eva Do's book is great on Huawei. I blurbed it. I think everyone should read it and to read these descriptions. the wolf culture, I think is the term on Huawei. They rush towards Afghanistan. And so I think that there is definitely an element here that is very real. And I would say that this is more kind of a developing country's hustle mindset. Because who else had this culture? New York City of 100 years ago. Joe, you still live in the Lower East Side? Yeah, I still do. I hear there's a lot of people there. Where there's a lot of people, Lower East Side, 100 years ago, when there were like 15 living in a single room. The US definitely had this. The US people would rush forward. This is where I think this is just capitalism. My view is that if you want to appreciate capitalism red in tooth and claw you go to Shanghai you go to Shenzhen you go to Beijing you go to all of these places where people just really work their asses off because they believe that there is something worth pursuing for And the U.S. used to have this. And I think that China very, very deliberately picked up as much as it could from the United States. You know, the cities are kind of built more like the U.S. cities, much more of a car culture. You know, my phone charger plugs into the U.S. and China more easily than it plugs into anywhere in Europe. So, you know, they copied the U.S. a lot and they copied everything from the U.S. aside from the political system. And so they've decided that they got to hustle. And so maybe, you know, you're a New York hustler, Joe. And, you know, this is what attracts you about China today. In an earlier stage of my life, maybe I was. Now I'm sort of just like I'm fine too. Since you mentioned the wolf thing, what's the nationalist temperature like at the moment in China? I think it is fairly steady. And I think that my sense of part of what ails the Chinese economy right now is that Xi Jinping has his wish come true And I think that top leader Xi Jinping main goal is to militarize and harden the country for great power competition with the United States. And I have a chapter in my book called Fortress China. And I think this is much more of a fortress mentality in which everything has to be about pursuing the semiconductors and pursuing the batteries and making sure that social pressures are not blowing off a lid. And I think that it seems to me like the top levels of the Communist Party is pretty comfortable with where things are in spite of the collapse in property, in spite of youth unemployment being almost 20 percent because they're having their wishes come true on the chips and the batteries and on all of these high technology pursuits. And when President Trump visited Beijing, the White House social media almost treated Trump as a supplicant. There was these photos which Xi was pointing the way and Donald Trump was nodding along. And so there's all of these things where this is much more about [45:00] Great power versus great power. And in great power, the little people don't really matter all that much. And so this is much more about the elite, you know, 10%, 1%, 0.1% of the engineers still being able to achieve everything that they want to achieve. And all of these resources are funneled towards them and power is made really cheaply to them. And so, you know, they want to pursue it. so one thing we've talked about before is um the lack of cultural exports from china labubu is not withstanding i was i thought this was going to be the one i thought this was going to be the one and that lasted about five minutes yeah um what do you think is needed to sort of unlock a cultural explosion in china because like the impulse must be there right yeah how about some marijuana and i don't think that this is something that i didn't expect you to say that but go on marijuana and the dropping of censorship how about that um and i don't think that is um going to be uh real anytime soon so i was on pretty deliberate on my trip to shanghai this time i went to go see a lot of stand comedy in shanghai which is something that really booming and so um they We of more of these online specials now which comics are you know doing shows and then offline is actually a real phenomenon as well and i went to shows you know one of which was english speaking i didn't choose that but it was just happened to be there that day and it was kind of these you know american expats who were english teachers mostly who were giving this show and the for the most part the audiences were amazing. They love to play along. They give amazing joke answers back. I think the Chinese audience is really, really fun. Comics were not as funny as I hoped. I mean, I don't see that much comedy in New York, and so it's not really good comparison. But the Chinese comic that I saw was essentially telling a series of skits. And it's not stand-up as I understand it. He was essentially telling these elaborate jokes, which he constructed, which didn't really happen to him. And so it wasn't all that funny to me, but I think it would be great if there were more Chinese jokes out there. But the fact of Shanghai comedy was that something like three years ago, one of this really big comic in China made a pun off of one of these core military slogans And what happened What happened to him Well all of these comic clubs in Shanghai were shut for I think something like four months and they all closed down in Shanghai And across these festivals, across all of these public performances, the comics have to submit their scripts to the censors before they can do their routine. And so how can that possibly be Now, excellent for creativity. You know, this actually gets me to one more question. In addition, the other book that I read last year, the other China book that I read last year was the book about Xi's dad. Terrigian. Yeah, which is great. And I guess he's like your Hoover Institute colleague. And one – like my reading of that book, which I thought was very interesting, and it speaks directly to this, is that one way to think about the sort of post-Mao era is how do you keep a hard line while not tipping into true cultural revolution territory? And this fear – like because what you described where it's like – and there was a story in the Wall Street Journal recently about Xi Jinping cracking down on people who are into mysticism and so forth. And like but it easy to see how these things spill over Right Because if you my boss and you tell me to stop with the mysticism then I going to bully the 10 people who are like a little bit mystical in my arena And then they you know and everyone replicates the bullying And then suddenly you back in cultural revolution territory Like that seems how the way these things propagate to me. And I'm sort of curious, like when we look at the fortress China that you talk about, do you think it's inured from a future cultural revolution at some point in the future by the way these things propagate? Yeah. I mean, this is quite a chain of dominoes you've constructed, Joe. First, you take away everyone's tarot cards, and then the cultural revolution erupts a little bit later. You take away my tarot cards, then I'm going to prove that I'm even harsher on the people I know who look at astrology websites. Perhaps. I think that, one, I'm spending more time in Silicon Valley. The opening line of my letter this year was that one thing that Silicon Valley shares with the Communist Party is that both are serious, self-serious, and indeed completely humorless. You know, the Central Committee is not a bunch of yucks. And I think it is our misfortune, our global misfortune, that we are ruled right now by Silicon Valley on the one hand and the Communist Party on the other. And these are completely humorless people that are kind of reshaping a lot of what [50:00] buy and what we think. And that is kind of nuts to me. And I think this is also why, you know, how great are Silicon Valley's cultural exports? I don't know. I don't think it's great products and just like the Chinese. And there are some great products. I think there's going to be, you know, Chinese marketing has not really kept up. You know, we don't really have amazing associations with Chinese brands as such. But I think that will change because the quality is going to improve. But I think if you're looking for any sort of a bottom-up culture, it is still remarkable how stunted Chinese cultural exports are relative to, let's say, the Koreans with, you know, all of this K-pop, Squid Game, all of that. You have Americans who are much more eager to study the Korean language at college now. I think that is actually outpacing people studying Chinese in college now. So, you know, China might do much better, but I would say by any measure, it is an underperformer relative to its population and its economic growth. All right, Dan Wong, thank you so much for coming back on Odd Thoughts and giving us the vibes, the vibes in China. A true China hand. Thank you so much, Dan. That was fantastic. Yeah, let's have some photo shoots in China. We'll get on some yaks. We look like Tibetans and then we have a great time While drinking lychee coffee right And a smokey cigarette The three of us are going to do a road trip one day Absolutely We're going to make this happen. I can't wait. Thanks so much. That was great. Always fun to catch up with Danjo. I love talking to Dan. And there was a different one. You know, we didn't talk too much like what is the secret recipe of like batteries and building giant projects. Yeah. I like to talk about influencer culture. And then that last anecdote about stand up comedy was really interesting as well. Yeah. So stand-up comedy, obviously very different in China versus the U.S., although maybe the U.S. is heading in that trajectory in some ways. But what stood out to me in that conversation is actually like there are a lot of similarities, I think, between like some of the cultural or not cultural, social ennui that we have, we seem to have in the U.S. and the, what did Dan call it, silent discontent or quiet discontent in China? You know I just sorry before going on to that I don fall I happen to follow a I think she Kyrgyz Kyrgyzstani stand up comic on Instagram And it really funny because she like makes these jokes about like other like distinct ethnic pockets within you know it like so and so men do this and stuff like that Anyway, I like seeing like these, these patterns like replicated all around the world. But I do think this is very interesting that there are certainly like, let's say the collapse of fertility. They say that's a pathology in some way or something like that. Like these are like these are global phenomenons. Maybe the East Asian countries are just sort of like the most further along down this trajectory for one reason or another. The phone stuff, the influence. And then also, you know, and I remember when we did that episode earlier this year about like the Chinese Internet. And like people, oh, there's like this more nationalist flavor. That's the same here. I know. So it does. I think to your point, like convergence. Yeah. There's sort of a cultural global cultural convergence that everyone is sort of regard in. I guess what I would say is even in very different economic conditions there is this sort of cultural convergence happening And you say it like OK the Chinese economy is clearly done so well from a standpoint of lifting people out of poverty and material abundance So it's so well over the last 10, 20, 30 years, obviously better than any other country in the world. And the fact that it's still roughly replicating the same moods, et cetera, as anywhere else, I just think it's like a very like, as Claude would say, a point to sit with for a moment. All right. Shall we leave it there? Let's leave it there. This has been another episode of the Odd Thoughts podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Waisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our guest, Dan Wong. He's at Dan W. Wong. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand, Dashiell Bennett at Dashbot, Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more Odd Thoughts content, go to Bloomberg.com slash Odd Thoughts for the daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all of these topics 24-7 in our discord discord.gg slash odd lots. And if you enjoy odd lots, if you want us to do a road trip through Yunnan with Dan Wong, then please leave us a positive review on your favorite podcast platform. 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