Hochul Enacts Data Center Pause to Protect New York Power Grid

霍楚尔叫停数据中心以保护纽约电网 州长凯茜·霍楚尔叫停新建大型数据中心一年，以防止居民公用事业费率飙升，同时迫使科技公司资助电网升级或自建清洁能源。 在本期 Odd Lots 节目中，州长凯茜·霍楚尔（Kathy Hochul）解释了纽约州对大型数据中心实施历史性一年暂停令背后的考量，强调这是一次战略性暂停，旨在为电网韧性、用水量和社区投资建立明确的全州标准，而非反科技禁令。她将就业带动能力较低的数据中心与美光（Micron）等就业密集型制造业进行对比，倡导涵盖核能扩建和小型模块化反应堆（SMR）在内的“全方位”能源战略。霍楚尔还详细阐述了她应对 AI 劳动力替代问题的举措，包括职业再培训、精简住房监管规则以及妥善处理与特朗普政府的联邦关系。主持人 Joe Weisenthal 和 Tracy Alloway 在最后分析了监管阻力与电网基础设施投资之间的矛盾，以及 AI 在提升政府效率方面展现出的新角色。 纽约州州长 Kathy Hochul 宣布对大型新建数据中心项目实施为期一年的全州性暂停令，使纽约成为全美首个实施此类暂停的州，旨在防范电网过载并保护居民免受用电成本上涨冲击。 (0:00) 在暂停期间，纽约州公共服务委员会及多部门正制定监管与社区投资框架，未来数据中心运营商需自行配备电力来源或为消耗公共电网电力支付高额溢价。 (5:00) Hochul 强调纽约将优先支持美光（Micron）半导体工厂等能创造数万个岗位的高就业制造项目，而非用工极少的数据中心，并设立“未来工作委员会”以应对 AI 自动化引发的劳动力替代问题。 (15:00) 为应对激增的电力缺口，纽约州计划在纽约上州大力推进核能扩张，包括部署小型模块化反应堆（SMR）并寻求联邦贷款支持，以弥补印第安角核电站关闭后的基荷电力空缺。 (25:00)

Governor Kathy Hochul enacted a first-in-the-nation, one-year statewide moratorium on large data centers to protect New York's power grid and draft unified community investment standards, arguing that the state must balance rising compute demand against utility costs and prioritize job-intensive manufacturing over low-staff computing facilities. Data Center Moratorium and Grid Protections (5:00) New York became the first U.S. state to implement a formal statewide pause on large data center projects after a similar effort in Maine was vetoed by its governor. Governor Hochul explained that a rapid surge in development proposals risked overtaxing the power grid and driving up consumer electric bills, pointing out that a single 50-megawatt facility draws power equivalent to 50,000 households. Because small upstate municipalities often lack the planning resources to negotiate infrastructure investments or community benefits with large tech firms, state agencies were brought together to set statewide baselines. The one-year moratorium is intended as a regulatory planning window rather than a permanent ban. Directed by the Public Service Commission alongside seven to eight state agencies, New York is designing a grid resiliency fund and community framework. Once the pause lifts, incoming data center operators will be expected to either introduce dedicated, off-grid power sources—such as on-site generation—or pay a substantial premium to utilize capacity from the existing electrical grid. Prioritizing Job-Rich Manufacturing Over Data Centers (15:00) Hochul emphasized that New York must allocate constrained energy resources toward investments that maximize employment rather than low-headcount facilities. She contrasted mostly empty data centers with semiconductor production, pointing to Micron's planned upstate development, which is projected to generate 10,000 direct and 40,000 indirect jobs. This jobs-first approach also informs the state's pause on Waymo autonomous vehicle testing, which Hochul linked to the need for active workforce transition and retraining programs for commercial drivers before automation takes effect. While curbing private data center growth, the administration continues to invest in state-sponsored technological infrastructure. New York established Empire AI, the largest non-corporate public-good supercomputing initiative in the nation, designed to support university research in fields such as cancer therapy and climate modeling. The state also deployed internal AI tools to review thousands of public suggestions and audit its regulatory code, eliminating archaic rules regarding telegrams and hunting dog permits. Energy Constraints and the Nuclear Strategy (25:00) Meeting rising electricity consumption while pursuing clean energy goals remains a primary hurdle for New York. After a severe heat wave compelled the state to activate peaking fossil-fuel plants, Hochul criticized the historical closure of the Indian Point Nuclear Center—which had supplied 20% to 25% of New York City's power—as a major strategic error that lacked a viable replacement plan. Although restoring the facility is considered politically and practically infeasible, the state is proceeding with alternative clean power projects, including the Champlain Hudson Power Express line to import Canadian hydroelectricity and an offshore wind project to serve 500,000 homes in Brooklyn. To build long-term baseload power, Hochul is pursuing an aggressive nuclear strategy, proposing to build more nuclear capacity in New York than the rest of the nation has built over the past three decades. The state is targeting eight upstate communities across four legacy reactor sites for expansion and is urging the U.S. Department of Energy to provide low-interest loans and expedite approvals from seven years down to a few years. Hochul recommended that incoming tech campuses and data centers deploy their own Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) using upstate land and freshwater. Managing AI Labor Displacement and Affordability (20:00) Reflecting on the economic collapse of western New York steel towns due to factory automation, Hochul established the Future Works Commission to prepare workers for AI disruption and prevent widespread displacement. She noted that recent college graduates, paralegals, and administrative staff are facing job eliminations due to automation. Opposing corporate tax increases, Hochul advocates private-sector workforce pacts, citing New York's collaboration with Micron to align K–12 curricula across nine counties for future technical roles. Hochul connected worker anxieties to New York's broader affordability crisis, noting that the average age of first-time homebuyers in the state climbed from 30 to 40. To counter housing shortages perpetuated by local NIMBYism and municipal opposition, she pushed legislative reforms through the 1975 State Environmental Quality Review Act (SEQRA) to remove barriers to residential construction, alongside delivering a $1 billion energy rebate to offset rising utility bills. Co-hosts Joe Weisenthal and Tracy Alloway observed that while the moratorium protects consumers from near-term grid stress, it risks reinforcing perceptions of New York as an obstacle to business development, potentially driving capital to less restrictive states. The fundamental policy question remains whether New York can leverage its standards to force tech firms to fund grid expansion, or whether the one-year pause will impede high-tech infrastructure investment.

纽约州州长Kathy Hochul在接受彭博社专访时阐述了该州针对新建大型数据中心实施为期一年暂停令（Moratorium）的考量，强调此举旨在避免激增的算力负荷击垮电网并推高居民电费，同时为制定全州统一的社区投资与自备电源标准争取时间。 设立一年暂停令以建立并网规则 (0:00) Hochul解释称，近期大量涌入的大型数据中心开发申请对纽约州电网构成严重威胁，一个容量仅为50兆瓦的中型数据中心，其耗电规模就相当于约50,000户家庭。她指出，纽约州北部的偏远地方政府普遍缺乏充足的规划人员与技术能力，无法在电网基础设施配额或每兆瓦社区补偿等关键条款上与万亿美元级的科技巨头抗衡。因此，纽约州成为全美首个出台全州级数据中心法定暂停令的州，而此前缅因州的类似法案遭到了州长否决。 跨部门监管机制与自备电力要求 (5:00) Hochul明确表示，这一年的暂停绝非永久性禁令，而是为了制定清晰明确的“行业规则”。纽约州公共服务委员会（Public Service Commission）自1月起受命，正联合7至8个州政府部门共同构建电网韧性基金以及社区投资框架。待暂停期结束后，数据中心运营商若想在纽约州落地，必须要么自行解决配套电源（例如采用小型模块化反应堆SMR），要么为接入现有电网支付高额溢价。她声称，科技企业和工程建设方对这种统一透明的州级准入标准给出了积极回应。 产业倾斜：优先高就业制造而非纯算力中心 (15:00) 在资源分配上，Hochul直言纽约州必须将宝贵的电力配额向高就业率的高端制造业倾斜，而非几乎不创造就业机会的空旷数据中心。她将数据中心与美光科技（Micron）在纽约州北部的重大投资进行对比，后者作为美国历史上规模最大的私营部门投资，预计将创造10,000个直接岗位和40,000个间接岗位。针对此类高价值制造业，纽约州甚至联合9个学区调整了K-12课程以培养半导体与工程人才。与此相对，纽约州对Waymo无人驾驶测试同样采取了谨慎叫停的态度，以确保在替代传统司机前建立起有效的转岗培训方案。 能源危机应对与全方位核能蓝图 (25:00) 近期严重热浪迫使纽约州重启化石燃料调峰电厂，暴露出供电能力的脆弱。Hochul公开批评关闭此前承担纽约市20%至25%供电的印第安角（Indian Point）核电站是“州历史上最大的错误之一”，并指出在缺乏有效替代方案的情况下关闭核电机组造成了严重被动。为化解绿色转型中的供电缺口，她采取了包括长岛天然气管道、加拿大魁北克水电海底输送线路（CHPE）以及海上风电在内的“全包容”能源路线，并计划在全美近30年未大规模新建核电的背景下，推动在纽约州北部8个社区的4处既有核电基地扩建核能容量，力求敦促联邦能源部将长达7年的审批周期压缩至数年以内。 住房供给阻碍、生活成本与行政松绑 (35:00) Hochul将能源与住房列为最令其焦虑的两大深层危机。纽约州首次购房者的平均年龄已在短时间内从30岁跃升至40岁，而邻近的新泽西州积极开发滨水区，纽约却因郊区乃至本党进步派议员的邻避主义（NIMBYism）阻挠导致供给严重脱节，甚至出现过地方议员公然以排斥低收入人群为由否决900套经济适用房的案例。为降低家庭开支，Hochul推行了10亿美元电费补贴、推进法官侵权诉讼改革以压低车险费率，并促成议会修订1975年制定的《州环境质量审查法》（SEQRA），以削减阻碍住房和商业建设的行政繁文缛节。此外，州府内部还试点利用AI审核并废除了数千条涉及电报等陈旧过时的法律条例。 节目主持人总结指出，这一暂停令体现了两种截然不同的政策逻辑：批评者视其为典型的纽约式反商业干预，恐将资本推向阳光地带；支持者则认为严格的并网要求能倒逼科技资本自掏腰包升级公共基础设施。面对人工智能带来的电力消耗剧增与基层劳动力替代，如何在公共利益、产业转型与企业资本扩张之间划定红线，仍将是纽约乃至全美长期的治理课题。

## Background 本期内容由彭博（Bloomberg）旗下的知名播客《Odd Lots》于 2026 年 7 月 15 日在 RSS 及网络平台发布。节目主要围绕纽约州州长凯茜·霍楚尔（Kathy Hochul）于 7 月 14 日宣布的一年期大型数据中心审批暂停令展开深入访谈，探讨这一全美首例政令背后的逻辑、该州在能源与住房方面的现实重压，以及自动驾驶汽车在纽约落地面临的政治与就业博弈。 ## TL;DR 霍楚尔详细阐述了出台数据中心暂缓令的原因：面对科技巨头的申请潮与极为有限的电网承载力，州政府必须通过一年的窗口期制定规则，要求高耗能企业自备电源（如自带 SMR 核电）或承担电网升级成本，而非任由低就业的空壳设施挤占民生用电与先进制造业资源。她坚决否认反 AI，并分享了纽约州用大模型梳理废除过时法典、建设公共科研算力的实践，同时表达了对白领初级岗位被替代及年轻一代生活成本高企的深切忧虑。围绕能源全盘战略（推进核电与海上风电）、叫停 Waymo 背后的司机兜底计划、SEQRA 环保法改革以破除住房供应瓶颈，霍楚尔展现了平衡技术创新与劳工权益的务实治理思路。主持人随后复盘了该政令对纽约营商环境的潜在两面性，并借自动驾驶剖析了 AI 落地必将撞击现实利益分配的政治困局。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对谈节奏明快且极具政策实操感，主持人 Joe Weisenthal 与 Tracy Alloway 提问犀利直率，多次就“是否变相禁令”、“为何拒绝增税”等敏感点步步紧逼。霍楚尔的应对则展现出经验老道的一线执政者风格，既有面对大萧条式去工业化记忆时的真情流露与母性同理心，又带着与白宫、华尔街及利益集团周旋的果敢交易手腕。后半段主持人的深度复盘跳出单纯的新闻追踪，将个案上升至全美各州电网韧性、阶层阵痛与保护主义博弈的高度，听感既有宏观政经分析的沉稳冷静，又充满时代转折期的张力与危机感。 ## Bulletin - `00:00` 纽约州正式宣布对全州新建大型数据中心项目实施为期一年的审批暂停令（Moratorium），成为全美首个推出全州范围暂停令的州，旨在防止算力设施过度挤占民生用电与水资源。 - `04:50` 州长霍楚尔强调即便 50 MW 的相对小型数据中心其耗电量也相当于 5 万户家庭，暂停不是封杀，而是要求企业在未来落地时遵循“自备电源（BYOP）”或为接入电网支付高昂溢价并注资电网韧性基金。 - `16:04` 在电力负荷面临取舍时，纽约州将优先保障能创造数万高薪岗位的半导体制造业（如美光千亿美元投资），而非几乎不产生实体就业的“空壳数据中心”，并计划大规模扩建核电与小型模块化反应堆（SMR）。 - `18:32` 纽约州暂停 Waymo 自动驾驶落地并成立未来工作委员会，核心在于避免劳工在缺乏“B 计划”的情况下被突击替代，强调必须先为出租车司机等群体建立前置转岗跑道与 AI 技能培训。 ## Key takeaways - `00:00` 纽约州发布全美首个全州性大型数据中心一年暂停审批令，应对近期科技巨头集中提交高能耗项目带来的电网与水资源冲击。 - `04:50` 基层乡村治理能力严重失衡，纽约上州偏远城镇缺乏专业规划与谈判专家，难以在面对科技巨头进驻时争取合理的电网补偿与权益。 - `06:40` 一年的缓冲期将由公共服务委员会（PSC）牵头多部门制定统一规则，重点推进企业自带电源（BYOP）与注资“电网韧性基金”以改造老化电网。 - `10:00` 纽约州利用 AI 赋能公共利益，除高校用于癌症靶向疗法与极端气象预测外，还借助大模型数月内审查全州法典，清除了包括强制电报联络等陈旧过时法规。 - `13:02` 成立“未来工作委员会”应对初级白领及年轻世代的 AI 替代焦虑，汲取昔日重工业外流造成工人阶层崩溃的历史教训。 - `16:04` 在电力分配上明确“保芯片弃空壳算力”：优先保障美光科技千亿美元芯片制造及数万就业，拒绝耗费巨量土地和电力却无就业产出的空置数据中心。 - `18:32` 暂缓 Waymo 自动驾驶汽车路测，主张政府必须在技术引发灾难性失业前走在曲线前面，为传统司机提供前置的技能转型跑道与保障退路。 - `22:25` 拒绝以惩罚性加税应对技术变革，提倡政企与学校深度联动的“联合体”模式，并敦促科技巨头运用 AI 自行攻关降低能耗与水耗问题。 - `26:50` 霍楚尔直言上任前关停印第安角核电站且未备好替代方案是严重历史错误，造成纽约市 20% 至 25% 的基荷缺口，后续跨境水电替代工程又遭遇全球供应链受阻。 - `30:00` 推行核电、海上风电与天然气“全盘推进”能源战略，正推动联邦压缩长达 7 年的审批周期，并引导上州 8 个支持核电的社区拥抱小型模块化反应堆（SMR）。 - `32:38` 在与联邦政府交涉中采取务实交易策略，以工人下岗政治后果施压白宫 48 小时内解冻网关隧道审批，同时在移民与医疗红线问题上坚决对立。 - `34:39` 反驳金融业外迁论调，列举美国运通动工新总部及商业写字楼签约井喷，力挺纽约作为全球金融中心的根基无可撼动。 - `36:34` 针对年轻人购房年龄推迟至 40 岁的生活成本危机，通过能源退税并打破 1975 年出台的《纽约州环境质量审查法》（SEQRA）以破除建房官僚壁垒。 - `40:00` 痛斥纽约市内部分极左与进步派议员陷入虚伪的邻避主义（NIMBYism），阻碍办公楼改建住宅及低收入保障房建设，加剧青年住房困境。 - `46:04` 自动驾驶落地受阻折射出技术转型的典型政治困局：道路安全等广泛公众利益难以对抗组织严密、面临饭碗被砸的出租车司机等少数利益群体的政治动员。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### `00:00` 播客开场与纽约州数据中心暂停令背景 在商务礼品、企业 AI 落地与商业风险管理的播客赞助介绍后，彭博《Odd Lots》主持人 Joe Weisenthal 与 Tracy Alloway 聚焦于当天早些时候震撼全美科技与能源界的一则重磅新闻：纽约州州长凯茜·霍楚尔（Kathy Hochul）正式宣布，对州内新建大型数据中心项目实施为期一年的暂停审批令（Moratorium）。这使纽约州成为全美首个出台全州范围内数据中心暂停令的州。在此之前，缅因州曾尝试推进类似法案，但最终遭到该州州长否决。 主持人探讨了这一决策背后复杂的政治与经济现实。当下全美范围内“反数据中心”（anti-data center）情绪高涨，成为两党罕见达成某种默契的议题，公众对电力短缺、水资源枯竭和就业流失深感焦虑。但与此同时，各州对算力基建的竞争仍在暗流涌动，甚至纽约州自身依然保留着相关税收优惠。AI 产业似乎陷入了“人人都在谈论算力稀缺，却又人人抵触数据中心建在自家后院”的舆论困境。如何平衡未来 AI 发展与本土资源承受力——例如是否强制闭环水冷系统、是否要求企业“自备电源”（Bring Your Own Power）——正成为全美各级政府必须直面的紧迫命题。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 纽约州数据中心政策博弈架构图 accDescr: 展示公众反弹、电网压力与企业需求如何促成纽约州的一年期数据中心暂停令 subgraph Pressures["外部压力与挑战"] A["电网负荷承压<br/>50 MW 相当于 5 万户家庭"] B["社区反弹与规划能力不足<br/>乡镇缺乏谈判专家"] C["联邦能源政策不确定性<br/>清洁/可再生能源承压"] end subgraph Action["州政府应对机制"] D["一年期建设暂停令<br/>（One-Year Moratorium）"] E["公共服务委员会 (PSC) 制定规则<br/>7至8个州政府机构联合推进"] end subgraph Framework["未来落地框架"] F["自带电源 (BYOP) 或支付电网溢价"] G["设立电网韧性基金 (Grid Resiliency Fund)"] H["标准化社区投资框架 (CIF)"] end Pressures --> D D --> E E --> Framework ``` --- ### `04:50` 凯茜·霍楚尔谈决策动因：为何此时叫停大型数据中心？ 访谈正式开始，纽约州州长凯茜·霍楚尔接受采访，深入拆解了推行这一政策的核心考量。面对“为何偏偏选在今天”的提问，霍楚尔用“洪水漫灌”（flood the zone）来形容近来涌入纽约州的数据中心申请潮。她指出，许多原先仅处于规划观望阶段的大型科技公司，近期突然开始集中向全美各地提交超大规模数据中心项目，纽约州必须迅速做出反应。作为州长，她的首要职责是确保纽约州“能通得上电，而且让老百姓用得起电”（keep the lights on and make sure that people can afford to keep the lights on）。尤其在华盛顿联邦层面对清洁能源、可再生能源政策频频施压的宏观环境下，州政府必须加倍审慎地调度本土有限的能源。 霍楚尔算了一笔直观的能源账：即使是一个规模相对不算大的 50 兆瓦（MW）数据中心，其吞噬的电力也相当于 50,000 户普通家庭的总用电量。这种能耗规模直接将高科技项目与民生基本用电推上了正面竞争的擂台。此外，曾代表纽约上州极度偏远乡村地区担任国会议员的霍楚尔特别强调了基层治理能力的失衡：许多被科技巨头选中的偏远小镇，根本没有专业编制和资深规划人员，完全不知道该如何向企业提出合理诉求，比如要求企业按每兆瓦缴纳一定补偿金、或强制其回购电网设施等。 - **用电规模冲击**：即使 50 MW 的“较小”数据中心，耗电量也等同于 5 万户家庭的日常电力需求。 - **治理能力鸿沟**：纽约上州乡村缺乏专业规划团队与谈判智囊，容易在与科技巨头的落户博弈中处于下风。 - **核心政策导向**：霍楚尔重申其 1 月州情咨文中的原则——企业若想落户，“要么自备独立电源，要么为接入纽约电网支付高昂溢价”。 --- ### `06:40` 暂停不是封杀：一年窗口期内的具体制度蓝图 霍楚尔坚决否认该举措等同于“禁止数据中心”，强调暂停令的本质是“退后一步、深吸一口气，把规矩理顺”（step back, take a breath, and get it right）。她透露，甚至有数据中心开发商在社交媒体上公开发声，表示并不害怕合规，只希望政府尽快给出清晰、透明的规则。当前公众的沮丧情绪主要来源于一种被剥夺感——觉得科技巨头正在“强行闯入”（just coming in and just start forcing themselves in），却没有承担应有的社会成本。 在这一年的窗口期内，纽约州公共服务委员会（PSC）将牵头 7 到 8 个州属机构协同攻关，形成一套可供全美借鉴的标准范式。除了要求企业解决自身供电外，霍楚尔正着手筹建一个规模宏大的“电网韧性基金”（Grid Resiliency Fund），强制要求入驻的数据中心企业投入巨资，用于更新年久失修、长期缺乏资本注入的输电线路和基础电力设施。 面对主持人关于“一年暂停是否会滑向两年、五年乃至事实性永久封杀”的犀利追问，霍楚尔明确表示无意推行禁令。她直言自己不仅不反 AI，反而是人工智能的坚定信奉者与重度用户。她将当前的科技变革比喻为一场“飓风级风暴”（winds of change are coming in at hurricane force），极具破坏性但蕴藏巨大红利。霍楚尔回顾道，自己对 AI 的扶持由来已久，此前纽约州就曾率先推动研发了全美私营企业之外规模最大的超级计算机项目，州政府的目标是在拥抱革命性生产力的同时，守住基建韧性与民生底线。 ### `10:00` 用 AI 赋能公共利益：从癌症研究到清理过时法规 纽约州正在建设专为“公共利益”（public good）服务的算力基础设施，让州内所有大学都能接入此前无法企及的强大计算资源。这一平台正在赋能诸多关键领域，例如布法罗目前正在利用 AI 研发全新的癌症疗法；同时，AI 也被用于提升应对极端天气（如热浪、暴雪、洪涝和风暴等州长日常必须面对的自然灾害）的预测能力。 除了前沿科研，霍楚尔重点分享了一项刚刚落地的创新举措：利用 AI 对纽约州现行的每一条法律、规章与政策进行全面穿透式审查，排查陈旧过时、条文冗余或收费不合理的规则。过去这项工作若由人工团队完成，预计至少耗时五年，而借助 AI 仅用短短几个月便告完成。州政府不仅收集了公众提出的 4000 多条建言，还向各州属机构下发了精简清单，全面启动废除陈规的行动。 主持人半开玩笑地询问是否筛出了“街上准许骑马”之类的古董法案。霍楚尔笑着确认，审查中确实发现了大量令人啼笑皆非的条文：例如某些文件依旧强制要求以“电报”（telegram）形式发送，这意味着长期以来无数人技术上都在“违法”；还有“孕妇午夜后工作须申请特别许可”，或者“携带猎犬进州打猎须缴纳 25 美元规费”等荒谬规定。州长坦言，当初她下令把整个纽约州法典塞进大模型时，团队还曾心存疑虑，但她坚决推进，目标是借助 AI 重构政府职能——让政府不再是民众肩上的重负，而是身边的后盾。 - 纽约州高校与研究机构正借助州立公共算力推动布法罗的癌症靶向疗法与极端气象灾害预警模型。 - 通过大语言模型解析全州监管法典，数月内完成了人工需要 5 年才能梳理完的合规政策排查。 - 收集了公众逾 4,000 条法规修改建议，集中废止包括强制电报联络、深夜女性工作许可及陈旧猎犬税等过时规定。 --- ### `13:02` 人才吸引与年轻世代的“AI 焦虑”：未来工作委员会的成立 霍楚尔指出，对技术创新的开放包容一直是纽约的核心特质。目前纽约科技企业租赁写字楼的面积创下历史新高，纽约也成为了全美应届大学毕业生的首选就业目的地。然而，伴随 AI 爆炸式发展而来的，是年轻一代前所未有的生存焦虑：毕业生们担忧自身在未来的技术格局中失去位置，害怕被裁员淘汰，焦虑于大学期间苦练的专业技能是否瞬间变得一文不值。 为了正面应对这一社会心理冲击，霍楚尔在数月前筹备并于上周正式召集了“未来工作委员会”（Future Works Commission）的首次会议。该委员会汇聚了商界领袖、科技巨头高管、高校学者以及工会代表。委员会肩负双重使命：一方面系统挖掘 AI 带来的发展红利，确保全州学生具备核心的“AI 胜任力”（AI competence）以对接高阶岗位；另一方面制定缓冲机制，应对颠覆性技术对传统就业岗位的毁灭性冲击。 这一执政思路植根于霍楚尔的成长记忆。出身于纽约布法罗的她，童年时期亲眼见证了伯利恒钢铁厂（Bethlehem Steel）的关闭以及自动化浪潮给家乡带来的毁灭性打击，身边的邻里亲友几乎一夜之间全部失业。她强调，历史不能重演，政府必须直面人们眼下的焦虑与全州的能源缺口，以负责任的政策拥抱 AI，而不是任由工人阶级被动承受阵痛。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 纽约州应对 AI 劳动力变革的治理框架 accDescr: 展示未来工作委员会如何在促进技术采纳与保护传统劳工之间维持平衡 subgraph Inputs["核心驱动与社会挑战"] A["高校与技术人才集聚<br/>纽约成毕业生首选地"] B["年轻群体与劳工阶层的<br/>AI 替代焦虑与失业担忧"] end subgraph Commission["未来工作委员会 (Future Works Commission)"] C["技术红利与教育培训<br/>培育学生 AI 岗位胜任力"] D["冲击缓冲与转型保障<br/>汲取去工业化历史教训"] end subgraph PolicyOutcomes["双轨政策落地"] E["强化高端先进制造吸引力<br/>(半导体与芯片生态)"] F["劳动者转岗技能兜底<br/>(应对自动驾驶等颠覆)"] end A --> C B --> D C --> E D --> F ``` --- ### `16:04` 算力与芯片的权衡：数据中心暂缓期后的产业取向与核能野心 面对主持人的提问——如果一年暂缓期（moratorium）结束后引入更严苛的准入规则，是否会使数据中心建设成本飙升，进而输掉与其他州的招商竞争？霍楚尔坦然表示，数据中心最终是否落户取决于企业意愿，更取决于地方社区的态度。她拥有长达 14 年的地方政府从政经验，深信地方自治体拥有决定本地是否接纳高耗能设施的绝对自主权。 但霍楚尔明确阐述了更宏观的战略取向：如果面临电力负荷分配的二选一难题，她绝不会把有限的宝贵电力让给几乎不创造长期就业的“空壳数据中心”（largely vacant data center），而是坚决优先供给能够带来海量高薪岗位的半导体制造业。她举例指出，自己引以为傲的政绩之一，就是成功击败其他竞争州，将美光科技（Micron）引入纽约州。这是一笔高达 1,000 亿美元的超级投资，创下美国现代历史上规模最大的私营部门投资纪录，将直接创造 1 万个高科技就业岗位，并间接带动 4 万个供应链与生态圈工作。 为了支撑如此庞大的产业用电需求，霍楚尔通过纽约电力局（NYPA）进行了深度的专项电力调度，并正在大力推进极具雄心的核能复兴计划。她透露，州政府正等待联邦政府的审批绿灯，目标是推动纽约州新建的核电规模超越过去 30 年全美核电建设的总和。她强调，数据中心可以在纽约州设定的规则框架内进驻，但州政府的战略重心将始终倾斜于能长期留存的实体就业岗位。 - 坚守地方决策原则：是否建设大型数据中心由当地市镇自主决定，严禁强推。 - 锁定美光科技（Micron）千亿美元芯片制造项目，承诺保障电力供应，换取 10,000 个直接岗位与 40,000 个关联岗位。 - 制定超越全美过去 30 年总和的核能扩建蓝图，为未来高端先进制造与算力创新奠定清洁基荷电力。 --- ### `18:32` 自动驾驶落地之争：为何叫停 Waymo 与制定劳动者“B 计划” 话题随后转向 AI 最具象、最直接颠覆现实就业的领域——自动驾驶汽车。主持人提及 Waymo 此前曾在纽约州开展路测，但随后被叫停，背后显而易见地牵涉到对传统人类网约车与出租车司机生计的冲击，并借此询问霍楚尔办公室处理技术颠覆的监管逻辑。 霍楚尔毫不掩饰对 Waymo 技术的喜爱，赞许其体验“非常惊艳且充满乐趣”。但她随即严肃指出，纽约州叫停并放缓自动驾驶落地的核心原因，在于政府必须在技术引发灾难性失业之前“走在曲线的前面”。她反思道，在过往的工业革命与自动化革命中，官方最大的失职就是缺乏兜底的“B 计划”（Plan B），导致无数工人在岗位被离岸外包或被机器替代时陷入绝望。 霍楚尔认为，如果技术最终不可避免地取代人工驾驶，政府现在就必须介入，与产业界协同建立前置的人才培训跑道。州政府的核心任务是探索：现有的专职司机是否能够通过官方设立的 AI 基础技能提升项目，顺利转型并进入薪酬更丰厚的技术与服务岗位。只有在为从业人员安排好退路与转型阶梯的前提下，颠覆性技术的商业化铺开才具备社会正当性。 ### `20:00` 劳动力冲击与保护被遗忘的年轻人 纽约州长凯西·霍楚尔（Kathy Hochul）谈到了她应对技术颠覆的核心策略：必须为普通人找到出路，让变革产生积极成果，而不是放任社区瓦解。她回忆起自己的成长背景——家乡在产业外流后几乎沦为鬼城，所有人关门离开，甚至成了“最后走的人记得关灯”的凄凉景象。这种经历让她骨子里就带有保护纽约州居民和年轻人的本能。 霍楚尔透露，前几天她刚在州长办公室召集了 10 位年轻求职者。这些人是真正因 AI 丢掉饭碗的受害者，他们的前雇主直截了当地告诉他们：“因为人工智能，你被裁员了。”具有讽刺意味的是，其中一些人大学主修计算机科学与软件编程，严格遵循了长辈“学 STEM 就能拥有一辈子铁饭碗”的忠告。霍楚尔特别强调，年轻女性在这些初级白领岗位上面临着最严重的冲击。作为州长，她绝不能在没有竭尽全力减缓冲击的情况下，坐视这种剧烈颠覆发生。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 技术颠覆下的劳动力矛盾与应对 accDescr: 展示自动化对白领岗位的冲击与政府采取的双向应对策略。 subgraph Impact["劳动力受冲击"] A["传统忠告：学习STEM/计算机编程"] --> B["企业引入AI自动化"] B --> C["初级白领失业：律师助理/后台/行政"] end subgraph Solution["纽约州应对策略"] D["拒绝惩罚性税收"] --> E["政企产教合作模式"] E --> F["定向技能重塑与长期教育"] F --> G["缓和公众对AI的焦虑与恐慌"] end Impact --> Solution ``` 面对主持人提出的质疑——比如以 Waymo 自动驾驶为例，未来潜在乘客的数量远大于职业司机群体，正如工业革命虽伴随阵痛却造就了更富裕的现代社会，政府该如何权衡广大小微群体的阵痛与全社会的整体利益？霍楚尔做出了正面回应。她直言，主持人看重的是最终的宏观社会收益，而她必须看清抵达终点前沿途造成的“附带损伤”（collateral damage）。曾经的大规模外流是因为岗位流向海外竞争者和自动化，如今年轻一代完成了学业、背负期许，却突然被告知律师助理、行政岗位和后台运营全都不再需要人类。霍楚尔强调：“我们不能任由企业赚得盆满钵满，却把所有普通人抛在脑后。纽约的做法是带领所有人一起前进。” - 霍楚尔在州长办公室面对面接见的失业青年均因企业直接引入 AI 取代人工而被解雇。 - 自动化冲击最为脆弱的群体包括初入职场的计算机与编程毕业生、文书及后台行政人员，尤其是年轻女性。 - 霍楚尔主张技术进步不能以牺牲劳动力为代价，必须通过政策引导平抑公众对 AI 带来的焦虑与恐慌。 --- ### `22:25` 拒绝加税：以企业合作与教育重塑应对产业变革 当被问及是否应该向科技巨头额外征税来资助劳动力再培训计划时，霍楚尔明确表达了对增税的抵制态度。她指出，自己在纽约州始终坚守不轻易加税的立场，因为正是这些成功的企业和商业群体创造了大量就业岗位，并贡献了可观的税收收入，让州政府有能力推行全日制普及托儿服务（Universal Childcare）、扩大住房投资以及应对能源挑战。 霍楚尔提倡的是一种政企协同的“联合体”（Consortium）模式。她以美光科技（Micron）在纽约州投资设厂为例：在招商引资阶段，美光提出需要 9,000 名工程师以及数万名建筑施工工匠；霍楚尔当场立下承诺，随后迅速推动美光与当地教师工会合作，直接修改了工厂周边 9 个县的公立学校课程大纲，从基础技能开始培养未来对口人才。她指出，这虽然是一项长达 30 年的长期工程——现在上幼儿园的孩子可能要到 25 或 30 岁才会入职——但这才是提升国际竞争力的根本路径，根本无需通过惩罚性加税来实现。 与此同时，霍楚尔向引爆本轮 AI 革命的技术巨头发出直接挑战。既然这些创新企业拥有改变人类沟通、工作与思维方式的顶尖人才与技术底蕴，就应该把 AI 应用于解决其自身带来的负面外部效应： - 利用 AI 优化算法，主动降低数据中心自身的高能耗与巨量水资源消耗。 - 运用技术创新消减服务器冷却与运行中的噪音污染，缓和周边社区矛盾。 - 将科技巨头的研发算力与智慧注入公共基础设施的能效升级，以技术手段消解技术带来的物理瓶颈。 --- ### `26:50` 纽约热浪考验与印第安角核电站遗留之痛 近期席卷纽约的严重热浪暴露出当地电网的脆弱性。在用电高峰期，由于供电吃紧，纽约不得不重新启动高污染的备用化石燃料与燃油发电厂。针对电网承压与核能发展方向，主持人质问为何印第安角核电站（Indian Point Energy Center）没有被纳入重启动态路线图中，尤其是该设施的所有者曾宣称重新运转在技术上依然可行。 霍楚尔直言，印第安角核电站已经在进行深入的退役拆解程序，放射性燃料棒与核废料已在移除过程中。回顾历史，她尖锐地指出：“在没有制定好‘B计划’（替补方案）的情况下直接关停印第安角核电站，是纽约州历史上犯下的最大错误之一。”该核电站曾经提供了纽约市 20% 至 25% 的基础负荷电力，然而关停决定是在她上任之前做出的。她强调，哪怕当时确实存在设施老化或安全隐患方面的顾虑，理性的决策也绝不应该在替代电力尚未落实前贸然断电。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 纽约能源结构转变与现实挑战 accDescr: 展示印第安角核电站关停造成的电力缺口及替代工程面临的外部阻碍。 subgraph Past["历史遗留问题"] A["印第安角核电站关停<br/>(曾提供纽约市20-25%电力)"] --> B["电网基荷出现巨大缺口"] end subgraph Solution["霍楚尔替代方案"] C["CHPE 跨境水电输电通道<br/>(魁北克至纽约全美最长水下线缆)"] end subgraph Hurdles["突发外部阻碍"] D["全球供应链受阻与疫情"] E["关税壁垒与关键原材料成本"] F["极端高温迫使重启老旧化石燃料备用电厂"] end B --> C C -.-> Hurdles ``` 霍楚尔接任州长数周内便果断批准了“尚普兰哈德逊电力快线”（CHPE，Champlain Hudson Power Express）项目。这是一项从加拿大魁北克引进廉价清洁水电的大型输变电工程，也是全美最长的水下高压输电通道，旨在从根本上填补印第安角关闭后的缺口。然而，在推进该工程期间，项目接连遭遇了新冠疫情、全球供应链断裂、高额关税政策以及关键矿物与建筑材料供应受阻等多重外部现实挑战。 ### `30:00` 能源全盘战略：海上风电、天然气与核能扩建计划 纽约州长凯西·霍楚尔（Kathy Hochul）强调，自己在能源政策上秉持“全盘推进（All-of-the-above）”的原则。她正在全力保卫海上风电项目，目前正推进一项预计在秋季落成投运的海上风电设施，该设施未来可为布鲁克林 50 万户家庭供电。霍楚尔认为海上风电是极佳的清洁替代能源。与此同时，她也批准了一条从宾夕法尼亚州延伸至长岛的天然气管道建设，以此证明自己绝非教条主义者。谈到印第安角（Indian Point）等核电站时，她坦言当地社区已经没有重启的意愿；但在纽约上州（Upstate），有 8 个社区正“恳求”引入核电项目。这些地区不仅拥有选址和现有基础设施，还有自 1960 年代以来持续安全运行的 4 座商业核反应堆，社区高度支持并渴望这些高薪就业岗位。 为了实现核能扩张，霍楚尔制定了详尽方案，核心诉求在于美国能源部（DOE）批准低息长期贷款以解决资金难题。她已就此直接与美国总统、能源部长以及所谓的“能源主导委员会（Energy Dominance Commission）”展开商谈。霍楚尔在早期会晤中直言不讳地指出：核电审批通常耗时长达 10 年，其中整整 7 年卡在联邦层面的繁文缛节上。她向总统提议，只要联邦政府在不牺牲安全的前提下压缩联邦审批用时，她就会同步精简纽约州的审批流程，争取将周期缩短至数年。此外，她对小型模块化反应堆（SMR）的商业化充满期待，并明确向算力中心等高耗能行业喊话：如果科技公司想要在纽约建立数据中心或微电子基地，最理想的模式是“自带 SMR 供电方案”，纽约州上州拥有丰富的土地和淡水资源，但绝不允许耗费数百英亩土地却只换来几个零星岗位的低效开发。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 霍楚尔能源与算力审批提速方案 accDescr: 描绘纽约州在联邦审批与州级流程协同下加速核电及SMR落地以支撑高能耗产业的机制 subgraph Federal["联邦层面 (DOE / 能源委员会)"] A["压缩 7 年联邦审批流程"] B["提供长期低息贷款支持"] end subgraph State["纽约州层面 (Hochul 主导)"] C["精简州级监管与环境许可"] D["盘活上州 8 个核能友好社区资源"] end subgraph Industry["产业落地 (数据中心 / 算力基础设施)"] E["推行 SMR 自带能源模式"] F["高土地效益与高薪岗位产出"] end A --> C B --> D C & D --> E E --> F ``` - **布鲁克林海上风电**：预计秋季启动，可满足 50 万户家庭用电需求。 - **跨州天然气管道**：正式批准从宾夕法尼亚州通往长岛的管线。 - **上州核能基底**：拥有 4 座 1960 年代起稳定运行的反应堆，8 个社区明确表达接纳意愿。 - **审批加速主张**：打破原本长达 10 年的审批周期（其中 7 年在联邦），通过联邦与州级协同压缩至数年。 - **数据中心准入门槛**：要求企业具备自带小型模块化反应堆（SMR）能力，拒绝“圈地数百英亩却无就业产出”的项目。 --- ### `32:38` 与特朗普政府周旋：务实交易、项目谈判与红线博弈 谈及与特朗普（Donald Trump）政府打交道的风格，霍楚尔表示，自己作为纽约州历史上首位女性州长兼母亲，擅长在冲突各方之间周旋以调低对抗烈度，核心在于“不搞抓马（drama），专注交付结果”。在对话中，她倾向于寻找双方的利益交集。例如在宾夕法尼亚车站（Penn Station）改建项目上，她向特朗普表明：纽约州虽握有一票否决权，但同样渴望建好车站，同时纽约州需要联邦批准核电项目，双方完全可以做成这笔双赢交易。 但务实并不意味着无底线妥协。霍楚尔分享了一次交涉经历：联邦政府此前突然叫停了哈德逊河网关隧道（Gateway Tunnel）工程长达数月，她随即致电联邦高层严厉表态：“我明天就要去隧道工地，现场有 1,000 名原本以为拥有长期稳定饭碗的工人面临失业，整个项目关系到 6,000 至 10,000 个工作岗位。他们都是支持你的选民，明天到了现场，你希望我对他们说什么？”打完电话仅两天，工程审批便全面恢复，工人们重返岗位。不过霍楚尔也直言，在移民海关执法局（ICE）的激进执法手段以及联邦医疗削减等议题上，她会坚决捍卫纽约价值观；她甚至当面告诫共和党人，对纽约州北部如埃莉斯·斯特凡尼克（Elise Stefanik）选区等乡村保守派地区的医疗削减、通胀加剧与关税负担，最终将在政治上反噬共和党自身。 - **网关隧道（Gateway Tunnel）博弈**：叫停数月后，霍楚尔借千名工人下岗的政治后果向白宫施压，48 小时内促成审批恢复，保障了 6,000 至 10,000 个就业岗位。 - **宾夕法尼亚车站（Penn Station）筹码**：以纽约州拥有的否决权与白宫的核电批准权作为互换共赢的基础。 - **价值分歧点**：严词谴责 ICE 的非人道执法，反对波及纽约上州农村保守选区的医疗资金削减。 --- ### `34:39` 金融中心无可替代：华尔街扩租潮与老工业遗址新生 针对摩根大通（JPMorgan Chase）在得克萨斯州扩张、城堡投资（Citadel）转战佛罗里达州等所谓“金融外迁”论调，霍楚尔予以驳斥，坚决捍卫纽约作为全球金融中心的统治地位。她透露，各大机构的 CEO 们在开设外地分支时都会主动向她致电澄清：“州长，请放心，那绝不是新总部，我们的根基依然在纽约。”各机构之所以在得州或佛州设点，纯粹是为了贴近当地客户，而纽约始终是核心本体。疫情期间唱衰“纽约商业地产已死”的论调已被现实击碎，近三四个月来，纽约商业办公楼的租赁签约量异常火爆，呈现出不可阻挡的复苏势头。 霍楚尔列举了美国运通（American Express）在世界贸易中心旧址（World Trade Center site）破土动工建设新总部的标志性案例，将其称作对纽约投下的强劲“信任票”。运通 CEO 亲口对她讲：“我们哪儿也不去，世界上只有一个纽约。”霍楚尔在布鲁克林多米诺糖厂（Domino Sugar）旧址宣布数据中心暂停令时曾回顾，纽约历史上失去过传统重制造业和航运码头，但每次都能成功完成蜕变；如今的金融服务业也是这种转型的典范。她向金融界承诺，州政府会提供透明、可预期的监管规则与营商环境，确保纽约始终是全球金融无可撼动的风暴眼。 - **商业写字楼租赁井喷**：打破疫情后地产凋零的悲观预期，近三至四个月签约量创下阶段性高峰。 - **世界贸易中心新总部**：美国运通破土兴建全新企业总部，补全世贸中心地块的最终拼图。 - **城市基因重塑**：从昔日的港口与糖厂重工业，演变为不可替代的全球金融与科技服务中心。 --- ### `36:34` 抚平年轻一代焦虑：住房短缺、SEQRA 环保法改革与生活成本减负 面对民主社会主义者（Democratic Socialists，如 Zohran Mamdani 等）在纽约政坛接连斩获胜利的政治现象，霍楚尔表现出深刻的理解与同理心。她指出，这种政治思潮爆发的根源是年轻人对物价飞涨和阶层下坠的极致挫败感——年轻一代即便拼命努力、循规蹈矩，也根本无法像父辈或祖辈那样买得起房。数据显示，全美首次购房者的平均年龄在短短数年内从 30 岁飙升至 40 岁，人生里程碑被无限期推迟。此外，昂贵的托儿成本（霍楚尔回忆自己当年担任莫伊尼汉参议员助理时就曾因无法解决托儿问题而被迫辞职，如今自己的成年子女依然在重复同一困境）、华盛顿治理通胀承诺的破灭，以及对“自身工作将被 AI 取代”的普遍恐惧，将年轻一代推向愤怒边缘。 霍楚尔强调，当权者不能漠视这些呼声，而必须用雷霆政策压降实际生活成本。她已推出 10 亿美元的能源账单返还计划以减轻家庭公用事业支出负担，并全力清剿阻碍房屋营建的官僚程序。她将矛头直指 1975 年制定的《纽约州环境质量审查法》（SEQRA）。霍楚尔回忆道，自己幼时住在伊利湖畔，当时工业污染极其严重，天空常年被烟囱熏成橙色，SEQRA 在那个时代确实发挥过历史作用；但在住房极度匮乏的今天，这项法规早已沦为阻碍建房的陈腐枷锁。即便立法机构部分人最初宣称该项改革“一送进议会就会胎死腹中”，霍楚尔依然在预算谈判最后关头强硬表态“不拿到法案绝不离开奥尔巴尼”，最终成功推动环保法改革破局。从打压汽车保险费率、叫板人身伤害审判律师协会（Trial Lawyers），到不遗余力铲除建房壁垒，她决心通过大刀阔斧的改革降低全州生活成本，并将年轻一代反抗建制的汹涌怒火转化为推动系统性变革的建设性力量。 - **购房年龄断崖式推迟**：全美首次购房者平均年龄在短短几年内由 30 岁推迟至 40 岁。 - **10 亿美元能源补贴**：设立专门的能源退税（Energy Rebate）资金池，直接对冲居民公用事业账单。 - **SEQRA 环保审查法破冰**：打破 1975 年出台的严苛环境评估体系，移除阻碍新建住宅的制度枷锁。 - **跨代托儿危机困局**：霍楚尔以个人两代人因缺乏托儿机构而被迫牺牲职场的经历，呼应年轻选民的生存重压。 ### `40:00` 青年选民的挫败感与纽约深层的住房供应危机 霍楚尔州长在谈及年轻人对政治体制的疏离感时，引用了历史上将投票年龄降至 18 岁的先例：当年人们质疑为什么 21 岁才能投票，年轻人远赴异国战场流血牺牲，却无权投票决定送他们上战场的领导人；然而当投票权正式降至 18 岁时，预想中青年群体广泛参政的变革并未立刻发生。如今的年轻人深感被“美国梦”拒之门外，生活充满挫败，而她正在全力打破这种僵局。 主持人随后将话题引向年轻人面临的最大现实障碍——住房危机。多家庭集合住宅的实际房产税负担往往隐性地高于单一家庭自住住宅，这种税收结构无异于惩罚了最能快速扩大住房供给的杠杆。对此，霍楚尔解释称，这种税制不平衡主要集中在纽约市内，属于市议会的管辖范畴，而非全州普遍现象。在她看来，住房危机的根本症结依然是极其短缺的供应量：只要望向对岸的新泽西州，就能看到其水岸线拔地而起的大批新建住宅，而纽约却裹足不前。 更令人无奈的是来自政治层面的阻力。霍楚尔直言，邻避主义（NIMBYism）不仅存在于长岛或威彻斯特郡的郊区社区，更深植于纽约市内部。许多自诩为极左翼、进步派的市议员往往带头反对住房开发： - **办公楼改建受阻**：在疫情期间写字楼大面积空置时，州长极力推展将闲置办公空间改造成住宅、放宽建筑高度限制并采取更具前瞻性的规划，却屡遭阻挠。 - **进步派的虚伪防线**：霍楚尔痛斥，曾有一项旨在为 900 位低收入人群提供自有产权住房的项目，竟遭到当地进步派议员的直接否决，对方甚至赤裸裸地表示“不希望这类人群搬进我们社区”。 - **年轻人的人才流失风险**：怀揣“在纽约闯出一片天”梦想而来的年轻人，无法永远忍受五六个人挤在一间狭小公寓里生活，当他们需要组建家庭时就会被迫离开。住房短缺与能源供应是目前最让霍楚尔夜不能寐的两大难题，她承诺将持续打破制度藩篱。 --- ### `43:18` 暂缓令的两面性：纽约对商业说“不”，还是探寻多赢新范式？ 霍楚尔结束访谈后，主持人乔·威森塔尔（Joe Weisenthal）与特雷西·艾洛韦（Tracy Alloway）就为期一年的大型数据中心暂缓令展开了深度复盘。他们认为，这项全美首创的暂停政策绝非孤立事件，很可能会引发各地的连锁反应。市场对于这一政令目前存在两种截然不同的审视视角： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 数据中心暂缓令的两种解读视角 accDescr: 对纽约州一年期数据中心暂停政策的负面与正面两种市场预期分析 subgraph Negative ["视角一：传统阻力与营商环境恶化"] N1["纽约州再次对新兴产业说'不'"] N2["坐实建设成本高、审批繁琐的刻板印象"] N3["资本与高科技企业加速流向阳光带（Sunbelt）"] N1 --> N2 --> N3 end subgraph Positive ["视角二：重塑激励机制的制度探索"] P1["利用一年缓冲期厘清电网承载与成本分摊"] P2["设计让科技巨头共同承担巨额 CapEx 的方案"] P3["降低普通用电户费率，实现社区与数据中心共赢"] P1 --> P2 --> P3 end ``` 如果一年的“暂停”最终沦为政府惯性下的实质性禁令，纽约便坐实了保守排外的恶名；但若州政府能在此期间设计出科学的经济分配机制，促使资金雄厚的科技巨头出资升级电网基础设施、分摊资本支出（CapEx），反而可能大幅减轻普通居民与小企业的电费负担，形成社区乐于接纳数据中心的全新范式。 --- ### `46:04` AI 赋能政务监管与无人驾驶（Waymo）折射的转型政治困局 两位主持人进一步探讨了霍楚尔在访谈中披露的 AI 实际应用。其中一个颇具创意的用例是利用 AI 大模型对全州庞大、古老且无人理睬的法律代码库进行地毯式扫描，找出早已过时荒谬的条文并交由人工核实废除。主持人调侃道，即便提示词不是字面意义上的“找出蠢规定（find the dumb stuff）”，AI 也极擅长在海量冗繁文本中筛选出几千条待审查项，极大解放了公共治理的人力成本。 然而，更深层次的技术转型难题体现在类似 Waymo 的自动驾驶出租车上。无人驾驶正是实体化 AI 的典型代表，由此引发的政治拉锯具有极强的预警意义： - **安全与公众利益**：统计数据已充分证明自动驾驶汽车在道路安全方面表现卓越，同时有助于缓解大城市的交通拥堵。 - **利益受损少数派的强力反弹**：政客面临巨大压力，必须保护可能被技术替代的出租车司机群体的饭碗。尽管大多数民众只是乘客而非职业司机，但受损群体的政治动员力往往远高于分散的受益大众。 - **《琼斯法案》现象（Jones Act Phenomenon）**：这种困境正如顽固的美国海运保护主义法规《琼斯法案》一样——少数受保护岗位的利益坚不可摧，即便全社会为此承担高昂隐性代价也难以撼动。无人驾驶在纽约等地推进维艰的过程，生动预示了未来各类 AI 技术落地时必将遭遇的政治博弈与社会阻力。 ## Notable quotes > `04:50` 能通得上电，而且让老百姓用得起电（keep the lights on and make sure that people can afford to keep the lights on） — 凯茜·霍楚尔 > `04:50` 要么自备独立电源，要么为接入纽约电网支付高昂溢价 — 凯茜·霍楚尔 > `06:40` 退后一步、深吸一口气，把规矩理顺（step back, take a breath, and get it right） — 凯茜·霍楚尔 > `06:40` 飓风级风暴（winds of change are coming in at hurricane force） — 凯茜·霍楚尔 > `20:00` 因为人工智能，你被裁员了。 — 雇主（凯茜·霍楚尔转述） > `20:00` 我们不能任由企业赚得盆满钵满，却把所有普通人抛在脑后。纽约的做法是带领所有人一起前进。 — 凯茜·霍楚尔 > `26:50` 在没有制定好‘B计划’（替补方案）的情况下直接关停印第安角核电站，是纽约州历史上犯下的最大错误之一。 — 凯茜·霍楚尔 > `32:38` 不搞抓马（drama），专注交付结果 — 凯茜·霍楚尔 > `32:38` 我明天就要去隧道工地，现场有 1,000 名原本以为拥有长期稳定饭碗的工人面临失业，整个项目关系到 6,000 至 10,000 个工作岗位。他们都是支持你的选民，明天到了现场，你希望我对他们说什么？ — 凯茜·霍楚尔 > `34:39` 我们哪儿也不去，世界上只有一个纽约。 — 美国运通 CEO（凯茜·霍楚尔转述） > `36:34` 不拿到法案绝不离开奥尔巴尼 — 凯茜·霍楚尔 > `40:00` 不希望这类人群搬进我们社区 — 纽约市进步派议员（凯茜·霍楚尔转述） ## Mentioned 凯茜·霍楚尔 (Kathy Hochul), 乔·威森塔尔 (Joe Weisenthal), 特雷西·艾洛韦 (Tracy Alloway), 唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump), 埃莉斯·斯特凡尼克 (Elise Stefanik), 佐兰·马姆达尼 (Zohran Mamdani), 丹尼尔·帕特里克·莫伊尼汉 (Daniel Patrick Moynihan), 彭博《Odd Lots》, 纽约州公共服务委员会 (PSC), 纽约电力局 (NYPA), 未来工作委员会 (Future Works Commission), 美国能源部 (DOE), 美光科技 (Micron Technology), Waymo, Meta, 伯利恒钢铁 (Bethlehem Steel), 摩根大通 (JPMorgan Chase), 城堡投资 (Citadel), 美国运通 (American Express), 美国移民海关执法局 (ICE), 印第安角核电站 (Indian Point Energy Center), 尚普兰哈德逊电力快线 (CHPE), 网关隧道工程 (Gateway Tunnel), 宾夕法尼亚车站 (Penn Station), 世界贸易中心 (World Trade Center), 多米诺糖厂 (Domino Sugar), 《纽约州环境质量审查法》 (SEQRA), 《琼斯法案》 (Jones Act) ## Video description <p>On July 14, New York Governor Kathy Hochul announced a one-year moratorium on new large data center projects in the state. It's the nation's first such pause at a time when anti-data center politics is on the rise around the country. But Hochul insists that she's not anti-AI, and that she's an avid user of the technology, as well as a believer that it can be a force for economic growth. On this episode, we talk to Hochul about the logic of the pause, and what she hopes it will achieve. We also discuss energy and housing stress in the state, and what it would take for New York to welcome in driverless cars.<br><br>Read more: <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2026-07-13/meta-s-louisiana-data-center-to-surpass-250-billion-price-tag?utm_medium=referral&utm_source=podcast&utm_campaign=odd_lots&utm_content=article">Meta&rsquo;s Louisiana Data Center to Surpass $250 Billion Price Tag</a><br><br>Only <a href="http://bloomberg.com/" data-testid="inline-card-resolved-view">Bloomberg - Business News, Stock Markets, Finance, Breaking & World News</a> subscribers can get the Odd Lots newsletter in their inbox each week, plus unlimited access to the site and app. Subscribe at&nbsp; <a href="https://www.bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots?in_source=oddlotspodcast" data-renderer-mark="true" data-is-router-link="false" data-testid="link-with-safety">bloomberg.com/subscriptions/oddlots</a></p><p>See <a href="https://omnystudio.com/listener">omnystudio.com/listener</a> for privacy information.</p> [Source](https://podtrac.com/pts/redirect.mp3/tracking.swap.fm/track/UVBrz8bN8aM2Xe47PEPu/traffic.omny.fm/d/clips/e73c998e-6e60-432f-8610-ae210140c5b1/8a94442e-5a74-4fa2-8b8d-ae27003a8d6b/b0947973-da0c-4120-9104-b4870172c604/audio.mp3?in_playlist=982f5071-765c-403d-969d-ae27003a8d83)

[4:50] 凯茜·霍楚尔: 能通得上电，而且让老百姓用得起电（keep the lights on and make sure that people can afford to keep the lights on） [4:50] 凯茜·霍楚尔: 要么自备独立电源，要么为接入纽约电网支付高昂溢价 [6:40] 凯茜·霍楚尔: 退后一步、深吸一口气，把规矩理顺（step back, take a breath, and get it right） [6:40] 凯茜·霍楚尔: 飓风级风暴（winds of change are coming in at hurricane force） [20:00] 雇主（凯茜·霍楚尔转述）: 因为人工智能，你被裁员了。 [20:00] 凯茜·霍楚尔: 我们不能任由企业赚得盆满钵满，却把所有普通人抛在脑后。纽约的做法是带领所有人一起前进。 [26:50] 凯茜·霍楚尔: 在没有制定好‘B计划’（替补方案）的情况下直接关停印第安角核电站，是纽约州历史上犯下的最大错误之一。 [32:38] 凯茜·霍楚尔: 不搞抓马（drama），专注交付结果 [32:38] 凯茜·霍楚尔: 我明天就要去隧道工地，现场有 1,000 名原本以为拥有长期稳定饭碗的工人面临失业，整个项目关系到 6,000 至 10,000 个工作岗位。他们都是支持你的选民，明天到了现场，你希望我对他们说什么？ [34:39] 美国运通 CEO（凯茜·霍楚尔转述）: 我们哪儿也不去，世界上只有一个纽约。 [36:34] 凯茜·霍楚尔: 不拿到法案绝不离开奥尔巴尼 [40:00] 纽约市进步派议员（凯茜·霍楚尔转述）: 不希望这类人群搬进我们社区

[5:00] Kathy Hochul: flood the zone [10:00] Kathy Hochul: Empire AI [10:00] Kathy Hochul: Future Works Commission [20:00] Kathy Hochul: ghost town [20:00] Kathy Hochul: collateral damage [20:00] Kathy Hochul: use AI to help us figure out how to deal with less energy consumption, less water consumption, the less noise disruption. [25:00] Kathy Hochul: one of the biggest mistakes in the state's history. [30:00] Kathy Hochul: first mom governor [30:00] Kathy Hochul: abhorrent [40:00] Kathy Hochul: we don't want people like that coming in.

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When you're running a business, the best days are the ones where priorities stay on track. For midsize and large companies, risk can affect multiple parts of the organization at once, from property and liability to cyber and regulatory challenges. At that level managing risk becomes an ongoing discipline At the Hartford the focus is on helping businesses manage risk before it turns into something more disruptive And when losses do happen, that work is paired with insurance coverage shaped by years of underwriting, risk engineering, and claims experience. Learn more at thehartford.com slash risk mitigation. Policies provided by Hartford Fire Insurance Company and its property and casualty affiliates, Hartford, Connecticut. Bloomberg Audio Studios, Podcasts Radio News. Hello and welcome to another episode of the Odd Lots podcast. I'm Joe Weisenthal. And I'm Tracy Alloway. So Tracy, big news in New York State today. We know there's been a lot of AI politics, a lot of data center backlash. I wasn't really expecting it, but New York State becoming the first state to institute a formal data center moratorium, at least for one year. Yeah. So this is really interesting. Governor Kathy Hochul just announced this and it comes hot on the heels of there was another attempt in Maine to do something similar but that ultimately got vetoed by the governor there So it really interesting that New York is I guess like stepping up and maybe trying to create a template for other states to do this Yeah. And it's interesting because like the one question is, does this become a ban? Right. Because we know there are a lot of people that would just like to see like anti data center politics is very popular. On the other hand, you know, it's interesting. I saw a story. I saw a headline recently, you know, in some states there are still tax breaks like they're trying to invite data center companies. New York still has tax breaks. And so, yeah. And it's so it's interesting because we see all these stories about like, oh, there's a compute scarcity, etc. And yet evidently there's still this competition. But basically data center politics are like really in flux. Absolutely. Also, one of the rare areas of bipartisan agreement nowadays, it seems. If you're in the AI industry, you have to be kind of concerned that, like, there doesn't seem like they have any friends. Everyone hates you. Yeah. I mean, the ratings are negative. But anyway, of course, data center politics gets into so many other things. You know, the anxiety about job loss. Energy policy. Energy policy water policy et cetera And it sort of this litmus test I guess because like no one really knows like no one knows whether their AI is going to be good or not right Like will this be a great thing for the world? Or will this disrupt the world in ways that we can't possibly fathom? And, you know, but also, if you agree that AI is going to be important in some way in the future, then it seems reasonable to want to design like some sort of framework for how data centers should actually get built out. I imagine different states, different cities, different municipalities will have different ideas for exactly how to do that. But it's interesting to see people start to grapple with those requirements. So, you know, do you have to have a closed loop system for water? Does the company have your own power? Right, exactly. Like, what are these requirements, what's the optimal data center going to look like in the future? Well, there are a lot of big questions that this touches on, just sort of in the macro sense, like what are we building? What is the government's attitude towards building things, period? I'm very excited to say we literally have the perfect guest, Governor Hochul. Thank you so much for coming on OddLots. I'm delighted to join both of you. All right. So the big news came out this morning, a one-year [5:00] oratorium on a big new data centers in New York State. Why now? What was the catalyst for this particular decision today? Well, there's been really what I call flood the zone. There's been a lot of companies that may have been contemplating putting in plans for data centers, massive data centers around the country, but all of a sudden it seemed like there's been a surge. And I have to respond to that. My main challenge is in the state of New York, making sure we keep the lights on and making sure that people can afford to keep the lights on. And so the challenges that I have to deal with in this environment where everything we want to do for clean energy, renewable energy, or my all the above approach are under attack from Washington. So I have to make sure I'm managing our resources. So when you have a huge company that wants to come in, even on the somewhat smaller side, 50 megawatts of power required, that's 50,000 homes that all of a sudden are competing with that consumption of energy. So on that front, it was important to me. But also, I've been studying this around the country. A lot of communities are deriving substantial benefits from these companies, and they're willing to pay for it. But I realized I used to represent a very rural area of upstate New York in Congress These communities do not have the sophistication They don have the planning staff the staff that would know to say you know we wanted you to give you know million per megawatt We want you to make sure that you're investing in the grid, all these other things they could be doing, but they're not being asked. And I think the companies are willing to do that. So I want to make sure that we take the time to have a community investment framework to give to localities. But also, you have to be able the power yourselves. You want to come in. I said this in my state of the state back in January. I launched the Public Service Commission to start this process. They'll be done within this year of the moratorium so we can have certainty for businesses. But you come, you bring your own power source or you have to pay a premium to use our grid. And those are the basic foundations of what we're doing with this moratorium. It is not a ban. It is simply saying, step back, take a breath, and get it right. Businesses want that knowledge of what the rules of the road are. We've actually had some interesting tweets from the builders of these facilities who are now saying, hey, just tell us the rules. Tell us the regulations. We're okay with that. And that's exactly what we doing but also responds to a lot of frustration from these communities from people who don think that they paying their fair share or that they just coming in and just start forcing themselves in And that really annoying to people It just they had enough Americans have had enough So this is the U.S.'s first statewide moratorium on data centers, which means inevitably this is going to be seen as a test case or an experiment. When you think about this, what exactly is it you're trying to, I guess, prove or disprove or achieve? Like, what are you looking for here? What should the outcome of the moratorium actually be? Very specific goals. My public service commission will take this year to devise a plan where we figure out how to make sure that they bring their own power or that they're substantially contributing to the grid. Secondly, I want them to contribute. This takes time for government to get this right. I'm establishing a larger grid resiliency fund. I want them to make major contributions so I can invest in the energy grid, the transmission lines, and everything else that has been ignored for so long. That's one of the reasons why our energy infrastructure is crippled. The investments were not made. So you're going to contribute to the locality. You're going to contribute to bring your own power and also this larger dynamic. So that's what we're looking for. Those are very specific I have agencies all working on them now I have about seven or eight agencies dedicated to this I put the person power behind this and we will be a template for doing it right Right. We know in some instances, I think I've seen headlines like in Louisiana, for example, the big meta campus, not campus, data center. It's like there's going to be payments to teachers in the area. The idea, I suppose, is, okay, any place that's open for data center business, Let's make sure that we get these, you know, the same agreements that are being put in place elsewhere to benefit the community. How should we, like, moratoria can become bans, right? Something is like we're going to put this in place for one year and then it's two years. We're still working out the rules of the road. Then it's five years and then you never have them. What sort of, like, are you actively trying to avoid this becoming a ban? I'm not expecting the need for a ban. I want them to work with us. No, I understand how important AI is. We are in a revolution. The winds of change are coming in at hurricane force. And it's disruptive, but it also be very positive. And I'll tell you my commitment to AI goes back years when I launched the first in the nation development of a supercomputer, the largest outside any private company. [10:00] is being built in New York for public good. What does that mean? All of our universities can tap into power, computing power that is unavailable to them otherwise. We are innovating new therapies in cancer, working on it right now up in Buffalo. We are also trying to solve some of society's other problems and even weather forecasting. I mean, you would not believe the disasters I have to deal with as governor, you know, heat waves, blizzards, floods, storms. And so there's all kinds of positive ways we can use AI. And I'll tell you what I just launched, and I'm very excited about this. I'm using AI to analyze every single rule, regulation, policy, see whether it's antiquated, outdated, too many fees. We just finished this. It would have probably taken five years at the staff level. Did it in a couple of months. And I have over 4,000 recommendations from the public who want us to look into things. Plus, I have all my agencies now using this list that they were given. Okay, get rid of these regulations. So I understand that. Do you find like wacky old school stuff about like horses allowed on the streets and things? Yeah like everything has to be sent in many rules by telegram or Not telegram No seriously It on the books A lot of people have been in violation Yeah yeah And even I think those pregnant women have to have a special permit to be able to work after midnight. No, there's the fees that you have to pay $25 to bring your dog hunting in the state. Like inane things. We literally. And these were things that you like basically put the New York City, the New York State legal code base and the AI and said, find the crazy stuff. Dump it in. And my team was like, you sure? And I said, no, we're going to do this. I want to rethink government. I want a government that's not on your back but on your side. And using AI has been powerful to do that. And I think every level of government should use this. So this is going to go on for a little while, but I'm going to make dramatic changes using the power of AI. So my point is we are open to this innovation. It's what defines New York, which is why we're so spectacular. Why so many tech companies are leasing space at record levels coming to New York? Why recent college grads, this is their number one destination. So I want to capitalize on that. When I talk about those college grads, I also have to mention something else. AI and the uncertainty around this is causing enormous anxiety because young people don know where they fit in the future with AI Will they lose their job Will they be displaced Will the skills that they thought were so important are now relevant So last week I had launched this a few months ago. We had our first meeting with really substantial business leaders, leaders in tech, people from academia, labor, gathered them together along with my team and I said, we are now called the Future Works Commission. We are studying the positive benefits of AI, what we need to do to make sure that our students are AI competent so they can take the jobs, but also how we deal with the disruptive forces. The forces that drove, I'm from Buffalo, drove everybody I knew out of a job when Bethlehem Steel left and automation replaced jobs in our factory. So I saw that happen as a young girl and as a child. I also want to make sure that we're ready for it this time. So I'm trying to deal with that anxiety that people are feeling, trying to deal with our energy demand, making sure the decisions are responsible. And we'll get through this, but we embrace AI in this state. Whether you planning a big tech event launching a new campaign or just stocking up on team gear finding the right promotional products makes all the difference 4imprint offers thousands of options, from on-trend apparel and premium drinkware to tech, totes, and giveaways, so you can find the right fit for any audience, purpose, or budget. You can customize it all, your logo, your message, your look, and many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point so you can make a real impact while staying on budget. Plus, you'll get expert help, fast turnaround times, and their 360-degree guarantee. So you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right. Whatever your goal, 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match. Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint.com. 4imprint. 4certain. Support for the show comes from public.com. If you're actively involved in your portfolio, you probably catch yourself repeating the same actions. Buying the dip. Manually sweeping idle cash. Putting on a hedge. On public, you can now create AI agents that handle all these tasks on your behalf. Just describe what you want to do in plain English. [15:00] Like if the VIX hits 25, buy a put option on the S&P 500. Or if my cash balance goes above $20,000, move the excess into my direct index. You approve the workflow and your agent handles the rest. Monitoring the market, watching for your conditions and executing your strategies exactly as defined. An investing platform driven by your intent, not just your clicks. You can also get full read and write access to your account via the public API. Go to public.com slash market and fund your account in five minutes or less. That's public.com slash market. Paid for by Public Investing. Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing, Inc., member FINRA and SIPC. Advisory services by Public Advisors, LLC, SEC Registered Advisor. Complete disclosures available at public.com slash disclosures. So there's a lot of noise about AI, but time's too tight for more promises. So let's talk about results. At IBM, we work with our employees to integrate technology right into the systems they need. Now, a global workforce of 300,000 can use AI to fill their HR questions, resolving 94% of common questions. Not noise Proof of how we can help companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off Deep in the work that moves the business Let create smarter business IBM So, given that you recognize the importance of AI, and you do want data centers in the state in the right way, but that's inevitably going to require additional rules, maybe it'll make the data centers more expensive, and ultimately New York is competing against other states when it comes to attracting these projects. How do you encourage data centers to come in with additional restrictions once this moratorium is over? That'll be up to them. It's also up to the localities. I mean, they should not go anywhere they're not welcome. I spent 14 years in local government, and I believe that the localities should be the deciders whether they want this. But let me tell you the larger picture. Whether they come here or not is up to them. What I'm spending my energy on is focusing on the large, massive producers of the elements to support AI. What am I talking about? Semiconductors. Just last week, less than a week ago, I was with the CEO of Micron. One of my proudest accomplishments was landing Micron to come to New York not another state where they looking seriously billion of investment largest private sector investment in American history They will be creating 10,000 direct and 40,000 indirect jobs. Now, I will say, I will work with you to get the power you need. And I've structured arrangements with the New York Power Authority. And they're also helping me with my effort to bring more nuclear to New York. we're waiting for the trump administration to hopefully green light us on my massive expansion of nuclear that i want to do i want to build more nuclear in new york than the entire country has in 30 years that's how ambitious i am about powering our future of innovation but if i have to choose between powering a largely vacant data center with the same amount of power i can have a micron with thousand jobs i can tell you right now where i'm going so they can come under the conditions we lay out, but I'm also going to be investing a lot of my energy on the good paying jobs that will be there for the long term. When we talk about AI labor market disruption, everyone's anxious about this right now all across the economy, and we're waiting. We don't really know what's going to happen to work. However there one area with AI specifically where we can already see the rubber hitting the road quite literally and that is in driverless cars which is AI And we know that like Waymo had a trial here in New York State, and then New York put a pause on it. And of course, there's going to be human drivers interrupted. Can you tell us about why Waymo couldn't move forward and what that says about your office's framework for managing this disruption? I will say I'm very interested in Waymo. I've been in the vehicles. They're amazing, right? They're fun. Yeah, they're fun. But this is where I want to get ahead of this. Before we have these disruptive effects, what is the alternative for the people who now are the ones we're counting on to drive us in person? You have to have a plan B. this is what we did not have with the industrial revolution and all these other the automation revolution that's why so many people were so discouraged when they lost their jobs whether it's overseas or as i said automation because government didn't step in and work with industry and prepare people for this that's what i'm trying to do are the people that are currently driving vehicles are they able to you know get some basic ai competency program that we put forward and they might get a job that pays even more let's [20:00] Let's make there be a positive impact to this. So that's the strategy I'm using. What is the alternative for people? How do we manage this? How can we get this to all work out? And so I just want to be thoughtful about it. Again, coming from the world I come from, where my hometown was basically a ghost town when all the businesses left, going out of business, last one here, turn out the lights. That's the world I grew up in. And I'm so hardwired to protect the people of this state and these young people. And I gathered 10 of them in my office the other day. I invited people who had lost their jobs. Literally, the boss had said, you're losing your job because of AI. Now, some of them had been studying computer science, coding. They did everything we told them to do their entire lives. I can't tell you about young people. I've said, go into STEM. You'll have a job forever. And those people, and especially women, are in the jobs that are most vulnerable. I cannot have this disruption without saying, we did everything we could to mitigate it. But just going back to the Waymo thing, for example, because I do think it's instructive about what's going to come for a lot of different industries. Like the number of people who would theoretically be a passenger in any car is far larger than the number of people who drive cars professionally And you mentioned the Industrial Revolution Center and extraordinarily wrenching but most people would say we came out on the other side as a richer more advanced society And so I curious how do you balance the interests of all the people who aren't drivers that would like a clean ride, that would like a safe ride, that would like a modern ride, a ride that potentially could reduce congestion, which I know is a thing you care about and historically it's like there are costs but then you come out on the other side better here's how do you get how do we get over that you're absolutely right but you're looking at the societal costs as being greater at the end i'm looking at the collateral damage of the people before it gets there i'm the first governor to say i grew up in a world where no one cared about the people and the displacement and why a lot of people had to leave the state because their jobs were gone, lost to foreign comp and lost to automation. I'm just trying to fight to not let that happen. I have to help them reimagine life without the current job they have, whether it's the people that are driving vehicles or whether it's the young students who did everything we asked them to do. They got a good degree. They went to college. They're trying to build a life And now they told well we don need any more paralegals anymore We don need people to do back office We don need administrative jobs You gone I can let that happen without saying but here how we can get you a better future Here's how I can put you on a path. So then we can try to dial back some of this anxiety and fear of AI. Because I can't have companies be successful, but leave. They can be successful, but leave everybody else behind. That's not how we do things in New York. We lift everybody up. Should tech companies have to contribute directly to, I guess, managing the labor market disruption? So, for instance, paying higher taxes to fund reskilling programs or things like that? They should be involved. You know, I have a hostility toward raising taxes in New York. I've shown that I'm going to stand firm because I happen to embrace people that are successful in businesses here in New York because they're the ones who are creating the jobs. the other ones who are already driving the tax revenues that allow us to have universal childcare and invest more in housing and to deal with this energy challenge we're facing. So I want to make sure that we're smart on that front. So there's a lot of ways to look at it. And I have to make sure that again New York has always looked at as a leader I very cognizant of the fact that what I do will have a ripple effect But that why everything we do is so thoughtful I did not wake up one day and say we should do this I talked to industry experts Can you manage this Are you going to be able to get through this? And what they're telling me is just tell us the rules. So technology companies have a role to play, and if they want to be supportive of the entire workforce, help us retrain people. Let me just tell you, I mentioned Micron before. Micron, when I was trying to recruit them, said they needed 9,000 engineers and tens of thousands of people in the construction trades. And I said, I'll get that done for you. I promise. So when I'm working with Micron and our teachers, our teachers unions, we've now changed the curriculum in the nine counties surrounding Micron to teach them basic skills that they would use if they were hired by Micron. Now, this is like a 30-year proposition. You know, kids in kindergarten may not take a job there until they're 25 or 30. This is what industry can do to make us more competitive internationally, but I don't have to tax them to do it. You should be part of a consortium with me. And I also said this this morning. The companies that innovated this revolution, which is changing how we communicate, how we work, how we think, how we live, AI revolution have to have the capacity to be able to help [25:00] Let's figure out the reasons why we have to have this moratorium. Use your expertise, your talent, AI. Use AI to help us figure out how to deal with less energy consumption, less water consumption, the less noise disruption. Why can't you solve for that and the whole dynamical change around this? So I'm challenging them to do that. Thank you. and many items come with no setup charge to help you save. And if you're really watching the bottom line, you'll find standout choices at every price point so you can make a real impact while staying on budget Plus you get expert help fast turnaround times and their 360 guarantee So you can be 4imprint certain your order will arrive on time and look exactly right Whatever your goal, 4imprint makes it easy to find your perfect promo match. Explore the possibilities today at 4imprint.com. 4imprint. 4certain. Support for this show comes from public.com. If you're actively involved in your portfolio, you probably catch yourself repeating the same actions. buying the dip, manually sweeping idle cash, putting on a hedge. On public, you can now create AI agents that handle all these tasks on your behalf. Just describe what you want to do in plain English. Like, if the VIX hits 25, buy a put option on the S&P 500. Or, if my cash balance goes above $20,000, move the excess into my direct index. You approve of the workflow, and your agent handles the rest. Monitoring the market, watching for your conditions, and executing your strategies exactly as defined. An investing platform driven by your intent, not just your clicks. You can also get full read and write access to your account via the public API. Go to public.com slash market and fund your account in five minutes or less. That public slash market Paid for by Public Investing Brokered services by Open to the Public Investing Member FINRA and SIPC Advisory services by Public Advisors LLC The thing about AI for business it may not automatically fit the way your business works At IBM, we've seen this firsthand. But by embedding AI across HR, IT, and procurement processes, we've reduced costs by millions, slash repetitive tasks, and freed thousands of hours for strategic work. Now we're helping companies get smarter by putting AI where it actually pays off, deep in the work that moves the business. Let's create smarter business, IBM. We recently had a pretty awful heat wave in New York. And one of the sort of, I think, depressing things about New York and the modern era is that when the temperature spiked, we actually had to turn on some of the sort of spare fossil fuel, oil-generated plants, etc. I know you talked about like this could be one area in which you actually do have alignment with the administration in D.C. Why isn restarting Indian Point which the owner of that facility says it still technically doable part of the nuclear roadmap It has been decommissioned Yeah They say it technically still doable Okay, because they've already been removing all the radioactive materials, and I'm already bringing them back. I would say this. This happened before my time. One of the biggest mistakes in the state's history was shutting down Indian Point, which powered 20 to 25 percent of New York City's power without a plan B. if you're truly concerned that there's been degradation of the facilities and there's safety issues or whatever the reasons were back before my time if that's real just wait until you have an alternative and it was so yes and that's obvious now that we say it now but yeah well this is so frustrating for me because what i've done though in the meantime as soon as i became governor within weeks i authorized the building of a transmission line hydroelectric power from Quebec, the Chippy Project, the longest underwater transmission in the country. And I knew that if I could bring in an alternative source, we could replace Indian Point somewhat. But guess what? While I'm doing this, we have pandemic, supply chain disruption, tariffs, war with Canada, which supplies a lot of our minerals and materials. And there's... [30:00] I have a war on offshore wind, which I'm fighting to keep a facility that will power half a million homes in Brooklyn. We should be ready to launch with that in the fall. Offshore wind is a great alternative for us. So I'm trying to find all these. I also authorize a pipeline, a natural gas pipeline, to go through from Pennsylvania to Long Island. So I really am all the above, all the above. And so I don't think there's an appetite for the communities involved to do any point again. But I have eight communities upstate. They're begging for it. I have locations. I have existing facilities. I have four nuclear reactors that have been working successfully since 1960s. The communities love them. They're good paying jobs. That's where I want to be able to do this. And so I have a plan. I just need Department of Energy to authorize approval of a plan that they would help us get a long term low interest loan to fund this. And I'm all on board. I've talked to the president about this. I've talked to the Secretary of Energy about this, the Energy Dominance, whatever they call it, Commission. I just sat in my office the other day, but I want this done because it's also, I said this to the president in one of my first meetings nuclear often supposedly takes 10 years for approvals Seven of those years are at the federal level You work on cutting yours don compromise safety and I work on streamlining mine We can get this done in a couple of years. Plus, where's the marketplace, where's the commercialization of the small modular reactors? I was about to ask. You're looking at those as well, right? We are. We're going big. I'm building enormous facilities, high capacity. I also believe when I'm talking about data centers or the next micro, show up with your own small module reactor capability and I'll find the space for you. We have a lot of water upstate, a lot of fresh water. We have a lot of land, but it has to be the highest and best use of those properties, not just using hundreds of acres for a couple of jobs. I think we can do better than that. I know we can, and I'm interested in driving that to happen. Since you brought up Trump and the administration, I understand you're probably more aligned on something like nuclear may be less aligned on something like wind. What are your conversations actually like with Trump at the moment? And have you had to, I guess, figure out the trade-off between like the fights that you're willing to fight with the administration and the things that maybe you know you leave alone I very good at managing relationships whether it with you know new mayors presidents That my job My job as the governor of New York is to make it all work out And I think being even the first mom governor first woman governor, I have unique experiences that allow me to deal with sort of warring factions all the time. And so my job is to dial down the temperature and not create drama, just get results. And that's been my focus for five years. So when I have conversations, I often strive for common ground. Let's get Penn Station done together, Mr. President. We can do this. I know you need New York State. New York State does have veto power, okay, but I want this done too, so I think we can get there, but I also want nuclear, and you have the power to say yes or no to nuclear, so let's talk about all these opportunities. So it's more aligned with it. Now, I will say I have called up and said, one time I called up and said, I'm heading to the Gateway Tunnel area. You just suspended this work for months. I'll be seeing a thousand unemployed individuals who thought they had long-term jobs, creating six to ten thousand jobs. What would you like me to tell them when I arrive tomorrow? Because they're real unhappy. They supported you and they're unemployed. Two days later the approvals were back in place and they back to work And so just having conversation helping point out the impacts of decisions you know sometimes can be helpful But as I know, I'll always stand up and defend our values. I mean, you know, what I think is happening with ICE is abhorrent. I have called that out. What I think is happening with all the health care cuts that are, you know, destabilizing health care, even in the rural Republican areas of New York, like Elise Stefanik's district, it's not a good political story. I once said, I said, this is not good politics for you. You're going to lose in Republican areas because of these tariffs and inflation and all these costs of living going up. So they're interesting conversations. I think it's always good to have the door open, line of communication, but always will stand up for New York values. J.P. Morgan expanding in Texas lately, Citadel expanding in Florida. Do you have a main theory of why we see this finance expansion out of New York? And would you say one of your goals would be to grow New York's market share in terms of the finance industry or the share of jobs that we have in this space? Of course it is. And why do we see this expansion elsewhere? Well, the CEOs often call me and they'll say, I just want you to know, Governor, this is not a new headquarters. We're still here. [35:00] Then they say, we're expanding here. I just took on, I'm leasing more. I cannot get over the number of leases for commercial space that have been let in the last three, four months. It is extraordinary. No one could have foreseen this. People remember just a few years ago after the pandemic, during the pandemic, I first became governor during the middle of the pandemic. People said real estate in New York City is dead. Like, you know, turn out the lights. It is dead. It is on fire. So whether it's tech businesses, financial services, just did a groundbreaking for American Express's brand new headquarters, finishing off the World Trade Center site. That is a statement of confidence. I spoke with the CEO yesterday and thanked him for that. I said, I appreciate your – he says, we're not going anywhere. There's only one New York. That is what I'm hearing from businesses. Whether you want to expand into another location where your customers are, that's what I'm hearing. We want to go closer to customers. I get it. But this is home. This is our identity and I will protect that identity because to me, after we lost so much industry and the manufacturing and the ports and all the other drivers of commerce in New York, we had to reinvent ourselves. I spoke about this this morning at the Domino Sugar facility where I announced the moratorium But we always reinvent ourselves for the better And that what we did with financial services We'll always be the epicenter of financial services. And they'll know that they have someone in me who's going to make sure that you understand the regulations, you know the rules of the road, and that's all these businesses ask for. I'm going to do a complete 180 from financial services to democratic socialists. But, you know, Now, we had Zoran Mamdani on this podcast before, and since then, it seems like the democratic socialists have racked up a number of wins. What do you think is going on here? Like, what is the appeal of that particular message and how much of it do you yourself share? It is extreme frustration with the cost of everything going up, the knowledge that no matter how hard you work, you play by the rules, you'll never be able to have what your parents and grandparents had, which is the possibility of owning your own home. To hear the statistic a few months ago that the average age of a first-time home buyer, if you're lucky enough to have a home at all, went from 30 to 40 in just a few years. Look how long that milestone that everybody else counted on before this generation how long it going to take To me that hurts people And I a mother of young people And I see the struggles they have whether it with child care Something I used to work for as an attorney for Senator Moynihan. I had to give up that job because there was no child care a generation ago. Those babies are now struggling to find child care themselves. So is it just a frustration, anger toward Washington because they were promised that inflation was going down day one? No more forever wars. All these promises that were broken and ICE is only, ICE enforcement only for the baddest of the bad, the worst of the worst. I think they're just feeling so disaffected that they're angry at everything right now and who can blame them? And again, we talked about AI. I'm doing all this and I'm going to lose my job to AI. So we just have to let them know. We hear them, number one. Your message has been delivered. We get it. We also share the concerns. And note there people like myself out there saying I going to do a billion dollar energy rebate to help pay utility bills I changing all the red tape that is holding back the building of housing because the reason you cannot afford your rent or own a home is because we didn have the ambition to build more housing We got hung up with laws like seeker law It was a 1975 environmental law which had its place at the time At a time when I lived near Lake Erie the pollution was rampant and people weren't protecting the environment and industries were irresponsible. Smokestacks everywhere. Sky was orange. I thought the sky was supposed to be orange when I was a kid. So I come out of that world. But fast forward to the world where they just feel like no one's paying attention to them and when we start ignoring these cries for help you get a change you get people just demanding change so why here's what i want to do change the policies build more housing the seeker law outlived its usefulness i just got that through the legislature and people said they was called dead on arrival even the last couple days of session and until the budget was done and i said i'm not leaving town until i get this i'm very aggressive when i have my priorities to drive down costs in New York, whether it's auto insurance. I took on the trial lawyers, one on that front. So the larger answer to your question is I'm focused on all these areas to drive down the cost of living, housing being probably the top of the list. But also, let's harness that energy. In my whole life, we've been asking young people to show up and vote in higher numbers. And I was a little kid during the Vietnam War. [40:00] Or when people said, why did it be 21 to be able to vote? These young people are dying and shedding blood on battlefields far, far away, and they can't even vote for the leaders who sent them there. So when it changed to 18, we thought there'd be a revolution at the time of young people just so engaged, and it took until now. And I think it's just an enormous stretch with Washington, their lives feeling frustrated and being denied the American dream. And leaders like myself are doing everything we can to change that dynamic. We have to. I'd love to have you back sometime just to talk three hours about housing because it does feel like the issue that could explain expansion into other cities by these big companies, etc. There's a million angles on housing. One specific thing, think about young people, is one specific thing in the housing is from everything I understand, property taxes on a lot of multifamily buildings end up being higher implicitly than single family owner occupied homes. And so it's like if you really want to build housing at scale and you need to fund government, you need to have property taxes. We are sort of like penalizing the lever that could expand sort of units the most Should we revisit the core property tax system in New York so that we don put such a favorable rate on the sort of traditional single family occupancy I think it's more indicative of what's going on here in New York City. Statewide property taxes have been too high, but there's not a disparity in that treatment that you're describing. So that is something that the city council would have to deal with specifically but the larger question is i i just go back to supply i think that we just you know you look across the new jersey you can see the houses they built on their waterfront and we did not and the nimbyism not just from communities out on long island or in westchester some of them it is like right here in the city and the opposition i heard from so many city council members who you'd consider very left very progressive, who was like, no, we don't want that. We don't want to have office conversions. I mean, this was a big deal. I wanted to be able to convert empty office space into housing, especially during the pandemic when we had a lot of empty office space, even raising the height requirements for buildings and doing more expansive thinking. I ran into so many roadblocks I had a project that was going to be home ownership for 900 people low individuals to be able to own their own home in one part of this great city and the legislator said, no, we don't want people like that coming in, in this progressive city. So that's what I'm up against, and I'm still trying to break it all down. I'm just trying to fight back because the collateral damage is the people who just want to be here so desperately. the young people came here with that dream of you can make it in new york the best city in the world it still is always will be always full stop but they get tired of living with five other people in a small apartment at some point they want to explain out they want to have their own family and that is exactly what we have to do i'm listening to those people i'm breaking down barriers secretly i'd love to come back because i have a huge platform on housing what i've done already what I have to do next. And it's a huge task. That and energy keep me up at night, but I'm going to deal with both, dealing with both now. All right. Governor Hochul, thank you so much for coming on OddLots. We'll immediately start coordinating with your people about our three-hour housing episode. And I would actually enjoy that. That's great. I hope you enjoyed this too. We would definitely enjoy that. Thank you so much for coming on OddLots. Thanks for having me well that was a lot of fun talking to the governor yeah i looking forward to our three-hour housing policy yeah yeah i think we should do it absolutely no that was fascinating um look like whatever you think about the specific move it seems like it could be the first of many, right? Totally. Well, yeah, it definitely seems like it could be the first of many. I think there are two ways to look at it. I mean, I think you could say that's New York State saying no to something again, right? New York, you know, the perception, including many people in New York, but I think it's like, oh, it's a bad place to build. It's a bad place to start a business. You want to go to the Sunbelt, et cetera. So there's the one view. It's like, This is just another in a long line of things where like the New York is not embracing the future, embracing economic activity or embracing business. The other possibility is that data centers could actually be very good. They could incentivize companies to add to the grid. We've had episodes in theory they can reduce ratepayer costs. [45:00] because this is yet another company to bring down the cost of that capital expenditure, gets distributed, etc. So the question is, could in one year something that on the surface is like, oh, this could become a ban if it just is how government works? Or in this year, could they find a model where data centers are clearly something that if you get the economics right, a community wants to embrace? Yeah, absolutely. And I think that's what the one-year moratorium is trying to figure out, right? The other thing I thought was really interesting, this is slightly off topic, but just using AI to dig through for old defunct laws, I guess, that no one actually pays attention to anymore. It's kind of crazy. Yeah, just drop the entire code base in and say, find the dumb stuff. Like that is actually, and then you're like, of course, have the human confirmant. But that actually strikes me as one of those things that AI really is good at. Because prior to that, it's like you I mean, I didn't go. I don't I doubt the prompt was literally find the dumb stuff. But like that is actually what I is good at. It could have been find the dumb stuff. And then it's like, OK, here's 5000 things. And then you review those rather than reviewing you know millions and millions of pages I do think the Waymo thing is very instructive as a thing to watch because here is an example Waymo is AI right Yeah. And right now the impulses, I get why politicians have the impulse. A lot of people have the impulse. It's like we have to, you know, make sure that the displaced have an opportunity to go. But on the other hand, most people aren't drivers. I think a lot of people like the, I think there's the evidence seems pretty strong that driverless cars are in fact very safe. We know that road safety and congestion are also very big deals. We didn't even get into the congestion tax, but these are like big things. So it's like, you know, at what point, how does the government make unpopular decisions that it's like, okay, there are clear benefits here, but they are going to fall disproportionately on one small group. This is the, comes up over and over again. This is the Jones Act phenomenon, which is like how many people have Jones Act jobs and how many people like and it immovable And so I do think like how this resolves if ever is kind of like an instructive early warning about like how AI politics will actually go down All right Shall we leave it there Let leave it there This has been another episode of the All Thoughts Podcast. I'm Tracy Alloway. You can follow me at Tracy Alloway. And I'm Joe Weisenthal. You can follow me at The Stalwart. Follow our guest, Kathy Hochul. She's at Kathy Hochul. Follow our producers, Carmen Rodriguez at Carmen Armand, Dashiell Bennett at Dashbot, Kale Brooks at Kale Brooks, and Kevin Lozano at Kevin Lloyd Lozano. And for more OddLots content, go to Bloomberg.com slash OddLots. We have a daily newsletter and all of our episodes. And you can chat about all these topics 24-7 in our Discord, discord.gg slash OddLots. 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