Psychologist Ramani Durvasula Links Narcissism to 15% of Population

心理学家 Ramani Durvasula：约15%人群具有自恋特质 根深蒂固的自恋特质无法治愈，且在资本主义奖励机制下尤为滋长，需要采取策略性抽离而非试图改变对方。 Ramani Durvasula 博士深入剖析了自恋的本质、谱系及其广泛的普遍性，估计大约每 6 个人中就有 1 人表现出自恋型人格特质。对话探讨了自恋的不同类型、资本主义和社交媒体等社会系统如何放大这些行为，以及自恋者所使用的防御策略（如煤气灯效应和心理投射）。此外，Durvasula 博士还结合个人背景，为应对自恋型伴侣或上司提供了策略性抽离和全然接纳等实用应对方法，以激励幸存者实现创伤后成长与治愈。 临床心理学专家 Ramani Durvasula 博士指出，约六分之一（15% 至 18%）的人具有显著的自恋人格特质，其表现涵盖从轻度自我中心到极具危险性的恶性自恋。 (25:13) 自恋是一种无法根治的深层人格风格；与在任何场合都表现粗鲁的人不同，自恋者极具策略性，能在公众面前极富魅力，却在私底下对亲近之人进行贬低与精神操控。 (12:33) 自恋主要分为四种类型：外显且富有野心的显性自恋、充满受害者怨怼心态的隐性自恋、逼近精神病态的恶性自恋，以及打着人道救援旗号博取关注的公共自恋。 (18:30) 商业与资本主义体系更侧重衡量最终结果而非道德过程，这种环境在客观上为缺乏同理心、不择手段追求外部成功的自恋者提供了巨大的晋升土壤。 (37:44) 身处自恋关系中的受害者常深陷“3R”心理创伤：无休止反思自身错误的反复纠结（Rumination）、哀悼被剥夺人生的懊悔（Regret），以及过度美化极少数温情时刻的欣快回忆（Recall）。 (56:08)

Clinical psychologist Dr. Ramani Durvasula argues that narcissistic personality traits affect roughly one in six people, driving severe relational harm and thriving within competitive institutional systems. Because the underlying personality architecture is essentially incurable, Dr. Ramani contends that self-protection depends on understanding their manipulative playbook, practicing radical acceptance, and systematically disengaging. The Spectrum, Typology, and Developmental Roots Dr. Ramani defines narcissism through an interconnected suite of traits: variable or low empathy, grandiosity, entitlement, a chronic hunger for admiration, superficiality, and external validation dependency. Unlike individuals having a bad day—who demonstrate accountability and offer sincere apologies—a narcissist exhibits calculated behavioral control, performing charitably in public while mistreating dependents behind closed doors. Clinically, narcissism spans four primary presentations: grandiose (pretentious, charming, and ambitious), vulnerable (resentful, anxious, and chronically aggrieved), communal (posing as a humanitarian savior for praise), and malignant (exploitative, menacing, and overlapping with psychopathy and the Dark Tetrad). Developmentally, Dr. Ramani outlines two main childhood pathways: an innate, high-demand temperament paired with trauma or emotional neglect, or what researcher Eddie Brummelman identified as the "overvalued child," who is praised as superior while remaining emotionally undernourished. While formal diagnostic surveys estimate clinical Narcissistic Personality Disorder at 1% to 6%, Dr. Ramani estimates that impactful narcissistic traits affect 15% to 18% of the general population—a rate amplified by social media platforms that reward curated self-obsession and fuel vulnerable online trolling. Mechanisms of Relational Exploitation and Gaslighting (66:31) Narcissistic relationships commonly open with intense courtship and charm before devolving into devaluation between six weeks and six months. Dr. Ramani emphasizes that narcissists exploit others not through empathy, but through high social perceptiveness—the tactical ability to read rooms and weaponize personal vulnerabilities such as fears of abandonment. At the core of the narcissistic psyche lies a churning "volcano" of deep shame and inadequacy, covered by a "manhole cover" of outward grandiosity; any perceived slight, criticism, or delay dislodges this barrier, triggering defensive rage and projection. To evade accountability, abusers systematically utilize gaslighting and DARVO (Deny, Attack, and Reverse Victim and Offender), shifting blame until the victim questions their own memory and judgment. Dr. Ramani identifies "Three Rs" that keep partners trapped: obsessive rumination over irrational arguments, deep regret over lost time or family stability, and euphoric recall, wherein victims cling to rare, minor gestures of kindness to rationalize enduring prolonged emotional erosion. Systemic Incentives in Workplaces and Governance (37:44) Narcissistic individuals disproportionately thrive in corporate and political environments because competitive systems reward outcome-oriented metrics over ethical processes. Dr. Ramani observes that narcissists aggressively chase professional success because external status functions as essential psychological fuel. Wealth compounds this dynamic: citing social psychologist Paul Piff's behavioral studies, she notes that heightened wealth fosters an insulated bubble that reduces empathy, diminishes rule compliance, and fosters entitlement, such as reckless driving among luxury car owners. In public leadership, Dr. Ramani estimates that 40% to 50% of celebrities and 60% to 70% of political leaders exhibit narcissistic traits. The public regularly mistakes absolute, unhesitating conviction for competence, falling for charismatic spectacle much like audiences at a magic show who resist having an illusion spoiled. Dr. Ramani warns against backing narcissistic leaders to confront hostile foreign autocrats, explaining that clashes between two narcissists devolve into ego battles where public welfare is sacrificed. Incurability, Radical Acceptance, and Survival Strategies (78:08) Over two decades of clinical work have led Dr. Ramani to conclude that narcissism cannot be cured. While intensive therapy can yield minor behavioral micro-adjustments—such as arriving to sessions on time or curbing overt insults—the lack of genuine empathy and underlying motivations remain unchanged, leaving these gains painfully inadequate for long-term victims. When leaving a relationship or job is impossible due to financial, legal, or family constraints, Dr. Ramani advocates for radical acceptance: relinquishing all hope that the individual will reform, thereby stopping the cycle of recurring shock. Practical survival requires documenting workplace mistreatment, cultivating outside support networks, and deploying the narcissist's ultimate "kryptonite"—non-engagement. Refusing to argue, denying validation, and standing firm in an authentic identity causes narcissists to lose leverage and eventually seek alternative targets. Dr. Ramani concludes that recovering from narcissistic abuse requires shifting focus away from attempting to rehabilitate the abuser toward restoring the survivor's self-trust and agency. However, a significant unresolved challenge remains at the systemic level: until society and institutional structures learn to separate grandiosity from actual capability, narcissistic personalities will continue to be disproportionately elevated to leadership.

临床心理学专家Dr. Ramani Durvasula指出，自恋是一种根深蒂固且难以逆转的人格特质，约影响全球六分之一的人口；其对受害者的心理剥夺具有极高破坏性，应对的关键在于打破自责并建立彻底接纳与脱离接触的心理界限。 自恋人格的核心机制与亚型表现 (9:45) 自恋不能简单等同于心情不佳或粗鲁行为。普通人经历糟糕的一天后能够自我问责并真诚道歉，而自恋者具备高度计算性的行为模式，对外维持迷人光鲜的形象，对内却实施贬低与控制。其核心特质包括共情能力低下、特权感、宏大感、依赖外部赞赏以及浅薄的人际联结。Durvasula博士强调，由于自恋是自童年期与先天气质交织形成的深层人格结构，在其20余年的临床研究中从未见过真正的自恋者得到彻底“治愈”，长程治疗往往仅能带来遵守约定等微小的行为调整。 在表现形态上，自恋覆盖了广泛的光谱。宏大表现型（Grandiose）以炫耀、魅力和追逐成就为特征，在男性中更为高发；脆弱型（Vulnerable）则缺乏外在成就，表现为社交焦虑、满怀怨恨和受害者心态，在两性间分布均匀；恶性自恋（Malignant）结合了操纵、剥削与威吓，与包含心理病态、马基雅维利主义和施虐倾向的“黑暗四分体”高度重合；公共自恋（Communal）则借由人道主义或“救世主”姿态换取道德层面的赞扬。社交媒体并未直接制造自恋，但放大了既有自恋者的影响力，尤其是加剧了脆弱型自恋者的嫉妒与网络恶意攻击。 关系陷阱与病理性操纵手段 (50:55) 自恋者擅长在关系初期展现极致的魅力与专注，形成童话般的吸引力，但往往在六周至六个月内迅速转向冷落、指责和情绪撤回。极具同理心与乐观倾向的伴侣最易深陷其中，经历反刍思考（不断纠结自身过错）、遗憾痛惜（哀悼被耗费的人生）以及亢奋回忆（过度美化罕见的温情瞬间）这“三重心理困境”。自恋者并非凭借真正的共情，而是利用敏锐的社交洞察力（Social Perceptiveness）精准捕捉伴侣对被抛弃等核心创伤的恐惧，从而实施病理性的心理掌控。 投射（Projection）是自恋者最常使用的原始心理防御机制，其本质如同用井盖死死压制内心的羞耻与自卑之火，一旦现实引发震动，便通过暴怒和无端指责将自身过错归咎于他人。此外，自恋者频繁采用以信任为基础的煤气灯效应（Gaslighting）以及“DARVO”策略——即否认行为（Deny）、反击质疑者（Attack），并将受害者与加害者的角色完全颠倒（Reverse Victim and Offender）。通过长期扭曲现实，致使受害者逐步怀疑自身的记忆与理智，陷入彻底的心智屈从。 职场特权、制度包容与权力幻象 (37:44) 自恋与现代商业系统存在显著的契合度。资本主义体系倾向于奖赏以结果为导向的进攻性个体，而忽视过程中的道德成本，这使得自恋者在追求财富与权力时具有极高动力。社会心理学家Paul Piff等人的研究表明，财富感和特权环境容易形成隔绝日常现实的保护泡沫，导致同理心下降、自私行为及违规倾向增加。自恋者往往将财富作为摄取崇拜与权力的终极供给来源，并在职场中打造不公平、缺乏心理安全感且充斥有毒闲话的组织环境。 在公众与政治领域，公众往往将自恋者的绝对自信误判为领导胜任力。Durvasula博士将这种现象比作“魔术城堡”的表演：大众明知虚幻却自愿放弃怀疑，沉醉于确定性的承诺中。她估计约有40%至50%的知名人士以及60%至70%的世界领导人具备自恋特质。她警告称，试图用自恋型领导者对抗外部专制敌手的策略极具危险性，因为两个自恋者的博弈极易沦为置公众福祉于不顾的纯粹自我争斗。 彻底接纳、脱离接触与受害者康复 (78:08) 面对难以立刻脱离的关系，Durvasula博士提出了“彻底接纳”（Radical Acceptance）的生存策略。受害者必须放弃对方能够改变的幻想，停止因其一再出现的恶劣行径而感到震惊，从而切断持续的心理内耗。在无法离开现实约束（如经济条件、抚养子女或文化压力）的情况下，个体应将关系简化为特定活动（如共同爱好）的分割处理，并积极在外部构建具备同理心和安全感的人际支持网络。 瓦解自恋者掌控的核心策略在于“脱离接触”（Disengagement）。自恋者依赖冲突与挑衅汲取心理能量，拒绝纠缠、不回应现实扭曲并收回崇拜是削弱其影响的最有力武器。对于遭遇煤气灯效应的情况，应使用“看来我们经历不同”等中性话术及时止损。Durvasula博士结合自身早年经历强调，自恋虐待的受害者并非注定终身痛苦，通过心理教育识别施虐机制、重塑自我信任并守住本真自我，受害者完全能够从深层创伤中实现心理康复与自我重建。 自恋人格具有高度隐蔽性、不可逆性与系统适应性，不仅对个体亲密关系构成慢性破坏，亦渗透至企业与公共权力结构中。防范与疗愈的核心不在于改造自恋者，而在于公众认知觉醒、及时识别操纵手段，并借助彻底接纳、证据留存与坚决脱离接触来保护真实的自我。

## Background 本期内容由知名播客频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人为 Steven Bartlett）于 2024 年 2 月 29 日发布在 YouTube 平台。节目专访了临床心理学教授、自恋与创伤领域权威专家拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士（Dr. Ramani Durvasula），重点围绕每六个人中就可能有一人具有自恋倾向的社会现实，系统探讨如何识别自恋者、自恋特质能否被治愈，以及个体如何在受损关系中实现疗愈与自救。 ## TL;DR 拉马尼博士从临床心理学与病理机制出发，深入解析了夸大型、脆弱型、恶性及群体性自恋的光谱分布，并指出自恋本质上源于深层的不安全感与羞耻感，且现存手段无法从根本上彻底治愈。对谈揭示了自恋者如何借助魅力伪装、DARVO 话术与煤气灯效应（Gaslighting）逐步蚕食受害者的现实感，并指出资本主义与名利场体系对自恋野心的奖赏与纵容。针对身处亲密关系或职场困局中的个体，拉马尼博士提出了以“彻底接纳”（Radical Acceptance）、不纠缠（Disengage）及构筑外部支持系统为核心的生存策略，强调觉知施虐机制、卸下自责并找回真实自我是走出心理创伤的关键。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在严谨的专业剖析与直击心灵的共情之间达成了深刻平衡，基调清醒而又充满力量。主持人 Steven Bartlett 的提问敏锐直接且富有自我审视意味，而拉马尼博士则以生动鲜活的比喻、犀利的即兴推演和充满温度的倾听，将晦涩的人格病理剖解得淋漓尽致。随着博士罕见袒露早年遭受跟踪骚扰与体制冷漠的至暗时刻，访谈的情绪弧线从理性的心理侦测自然过渡到深层的创伤觉醒，带给受众一种从窒息困惑中猛然清醒、重获心理掌控权的释怀与笃定感。 ## Bulletin - [25:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1513s) 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉（Dr. Ramani Durvasula）指出，自恋人格在人群中的实际破坏性比例约为 15% 至 18%（相当于每 6 人中就有 1 人），远超严苛诊断标准下的 1%–6%，且现存医疗手段基本无法彻底治愈这种深层人格结构。 - [32:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1965s) 自恋人格并非由单一因素造成，而是先天的情绪易感脆弱气质，在后天遭遇逆境创伤情感忽视，或被父母过度夸大特权但情感极度匮乏的双重路径下塑造而成。 - [37:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2264s) 现代资本主义‘唯结果论’的竞争机制天然为自恋者提供了职场红利，导致演艺名人群体中的自恋比例高达 40%–50%，各国政治领袖中更可能高达 60%–70%。 - [01:12:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4329s) 应对自恋型虐待的核心自保法则是‘彻底接纳’对方绝不会改变的事实，并采取‘彻底停止纠缠（Disengage）’的策略，绝不在煤气灯操控下拉扯自证，以此切断对方汲取情绪供给的渠道。 ## Key takeaways - [09:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=571s) 自恋者的临床核心画像表现为极度受限且波动的共情能力、病态的外部崇拜渴望以及深刻的特权感，其行为在外部社交与紧闭家门后呈现出极具欺骗性的双面性。 - [12:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=753s) 状态欠佳的普通人、纯粹的混蛋与自恋者的分水岭在于事后反省与行为广度：心智健全者会反思道歉并修正，混蛋表里如一，而自恋者人前极富魅力、人后残酷压榨。 - [15:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=925s) 自恋人格基本无法治愈，心理治疗中偶尔出现的守时或道谢等‘微小改变’无法弥补对受害者造成的经年累月的深层创伤。 - [16:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1005s) 自恋存在多种临床分型：狂妄耀眼的夸大型自恋与极端的恶性自恋在男性中更为高发，而充满怨恨与受害者心态的脆弱型自恋在男女比例上几乎均等。 - [20:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1228s) 恶性自恋融合了自恋、精神病态、马基雅维利主义、施虐倾向以及偏执狂特征，属于人际关系中最危险且具报复性的毁灭形态。 - [27:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1647s) 社交媒体并没有凭空创造出更多的自恋者，但它充当了强效放大器，尤其是为脆弱型自恋滋生出的嫉妒心理与网络键盘恶意攻击提供了温床。 - [41:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2466s) 由于现代企业考核只关注终局产出而不问达成手段，缺乏同理心与底线的自恋者更容易在商界登顶，而真正具同理心的首席执行官在残酷商业生态中极度罕见。 - [45:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2744s) 金钱虽不一定会将善良者腐化为恶人，但它是终极的自恋供给，能兑换权力和崇拜，并构筑出脱离现实的特权泡沫与去抑制行为。 - [56:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3368s) 受害者容易深陷自恋关系是因为遭遇了长达 6 周至 6 个月的过度情感轰炸捕获期，随后陷入反刍思考、终生遗憾和欣快回忆的‘3R’创伤纽带陷阱中。 - [01:01:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3692s) 投射是自恋者的核心防御机制，当其内在羞耻感被日常琐事或挫败踢翻时，会通过歇斯底里地倒打一耙，将自身缺陷与背叛归咎于他人。 - [01:09:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4163s) 煤气灯效应本质是建立在信任基础上的权力压制，施虐者常娴熟运用 DARVO（否认、攻击、反转受害者与加害者身份）战术彻底瓦解受害者的现实感。 - [01:12:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4333s) 面对煤气灯操纵切忌出示聊天记录自证清白，唯一的应对防线是平淡回复‘我们对此有着不同的体验’并立即坚决终止对话。 - [01:13:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4427s) 家庭暴力与自恋特质具有绝对关联，施暴者内心的零同理心与傲慢特权感，决定了常规的家暴矫正项目往往收效甚微。 - [01:18:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4689s) 受制于财务、子女或原生家庭而无法脱离毒性关系的人，可以通过‘极度接纳’放下改变对方的执念，并在关系之外构筑有同理心的外部支持系统以求生存。 - [01:24:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5085s) 自恋者的‘氪石’是坚决不纠缠的冷漠态度与不可动摇的真实内核，当对方无法从争吵与迎合中榨取情绪供给时便会自讨没趣地撤离。 - [01:32:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5552s) 自恋型虐待后的身心康复完全可行，受害者一旦获得专业知识定性并摆脱自责，就能逐步打破创伤阴影并重建真实的自我。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=0s) 开篇导视：自恋人格的隐蔽威胁与谱系 研究显示，大约每六个人中就有一人具有自恋倾向，而在某些极端情况下，与这类人的接触甚至会演变成关乎生死的危机。作为全球研究自恋领域的权威学者与执业临床心理学家，拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉（Dr. Ramani Durvasula）指出，自恋本质上是一个连续的光谱：一端是社交媒体上热衷作秀的“Instagram 救世主”，而另一端则是极具控制欲、极度危险的邪教头目。处于光谱严重一端的人缺乏同理心，极具支配欲，凡事必须争抢最后一句话，且极易暴怒，而这仅仅是冰山一角。 自恋在现实人际交往、职场和亲密关系中展现出极大的破坏性。自恋者往往在外部社交中魅力四射、充满自信，关系初期的攻势猛烈而热烈，但随后便急转直下，演化为贬低、操控与煤气灯效应（Gaslighting）。在外人眼中，他们或许是完美的伴侣或杰出的领袖，引得旁人羡慕地说“能嫁给他你真幸运”；然而在紧闭的家门背后，他们却在精神层面将伴侣彻底摧毁。在职场中，遇到自恋型老板会让人感到自己毫无存在感、价值被抹杀，处于不可预测且缺乏心理安全感的恶劣环境。面对这些复杂的现象，本期对谈将深度剖析如何识别自恋者、自恋能否被治愈，以及个体该如何在自恋关系的泥潭中自救。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自恋谱系与危害路径 accDescr: 展示自恋从轻度到重度的光谱分布及其在亲密关系中的演变模式 subgraph Spectrum["自恋光谱 (Narcissism Spectrum)"] Low["轻度表现：社交媒体作秀、博取关注"] High["重度表现：邪教领袖特质、极度掌控、暴怒、缺乏共情"] Low --> High end subgraph Dynamics["关系演化路径 (Relationship Dynamics)"] Phase1["初期高光：魅力四射、迅速拉近距离"] Phase2["人后虐待：贬低打压、操控与煤气灯效应"] Phase3["精神摧毁：自我认同瓦解、习得性无助与自责"] Phase1 --> Phase2 --> Phase3 end High --> Dynamics ``` --- ### [01:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=94s) 频道突破五百万订阅的里程碑与致谢 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向观众分享了一个重要的里程碑时刻：该节目在 YouTube 上的订阅用户已正式突破 500 万大关。史蒂芬感慨道，在三年前创办《The Diary Of A CEO》时，他即便在最大胆的预期里，也仅设想过节目未来能拥有十万关注者，如今五百万人每周锁定频道的现实远远超出了他最初的想象。 史蒂芬对观众长期以来的支持致谢，并强调他与观众之间有一项默契的约定——观众每一次点击订阅，制作团队就必须将节目的水准提升到一个全新高度。他透露，团队在过去的九个月中一直在为订阅用户筹备一份特别惊喜，计划在 2024 年全方位升级节目制作，邀请更具国际影响力的嘉宾，挖掘更具全球视野的真实故事。 --- ### [02:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=164s) 致力于自恋研究的原因：被劫持的自我认同 当被问及为何将毕生的精力与学术事业全部倾注于“自恋”这一主题时，拉马尼博士指出，自恋人格对周围人的侵蚀是深刻且具有毁灭性的。如果一个人在成长过程中长期接触自恋型抚养者，其人格与自我认同的建立过程会被彻底扭曲；而若是在成年后才首次遭遇自恋者，原本健全的自我认同也会遭到无情的“劫持（hijack）”，将一个人从其真实的自我中生生抽离。 拉马尼博士特别指出了心理健康领域乃至现代文化中存在的一种荒谬悖论：整个社会似乎一直没有允许人们堂堂正正地将自恋定义为一种严重的问题并给予正当回击，甚至在心理健康圈子里，公开指出“自恋者并不友善”反而会被视为一种“不够宽容”的表现。她之所以全身心投入这项工作，正是因为她最渴望达成的目标，就是帮助那些受害者重新找回属于他们自己的真实自我（authentic selves）。 --- ### [03:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=226s) 自恋的代价：被扼杀的潜能与重复的创伤 拉马尼博士结合自身数十年的观察，列举了自恋者给他人生命带来的沉重代价。自恋虐待最残酷的恶果之一，是让原本充满才华的人彻底丧失自我价值感： - **潜能与职业梦想的夭折**：有人因自恋者的贬损而彻底放弃学业与热爱的领域，外界永远失去了见证其创造力和才华的机会，当事人也无法如愿舒展羽翼、成长为理想中的专业人才或艺术家。 - **为了索取微薄的爱而牺牲自我**：有人原本对自己的人生规划有着极其清晰的认知，却为了博取自恋型父母的认可，被迫全盘接受父母的强制安排，因为他们心知肚明——除非顺从，否则自己绝不会获得一丝关爱。 - **代际创伤与关系轮回**：许多原本极具共情力、温暖且善良的人，在经年累月被灌输“你不够好”、“你太自私”、“你太贪婪”、“你太愚蠢”等贬损之词后，内心产生深刻的残缺感，以至于在成年后不断重复跳入相似的剥削型关系中，误以为自己配不上平等尊重、相互协作的真爱。 拉马尼博士直言，这些心碎的个案仅仅只是“冰山的一角”。 --- ### [05:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=312s) 学术历程：从健康心理学跨入“无法测量”的人格研究 谈及自身的学术与从业背景，拉马尼博士介绍，她拥有临床心理学博士学位，辅修健康心理学。她最初的研究兴趣集中在患有躯体疾病的人群中，心理健康与精神障碍是如何相互影响并呈现的。医学界早已证实，人格特质会直接决定一个人的健康管理方式，甚至诱发高危行为——例如，自恋与成瘾行为之间存在着极高的重合度，许多自恋者通过滥用精神活性物质来进行情绪调节，进而摧毁身体健康。 拉马尼博士强调，研究人格特质面临巨大的学术壁垒。相比于临床诊断界限分明、严重程度易于量化评估的抑郁症，人格领域犹如一片“法外荒原（wild west）”。由于缺乏像验血一样客观的指标，且概念构念（constructs）极难精准界定，很多学者在科研中对人格问题避之唯恐不及。然而，拉马尼博士却主动迎难而上，因为她深信，如果能够攻破人格这一难关，就能真正解开心理健康研究中大量长期无法测量的“背景噪音”。 --- ### [06:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=403s) 临床前线的洞察：自恋虐待与成瘾关系的残酷对比 尽管如今频频面对大众媒体、撰写著作并在全球巡回科普，拉马尼博士每周依然雷打不动地坚守在临床第一线，为自恋虐待的受害者提供个体咨询。她认为，脱离个体微观层面的研究容易让人与真实疾苦脱节，而在诊室中，她能深切感受到错误关系如何粉碎一个人的世界观，同时也能见证简单的心理教育、经验验证（validation）、打破自责和重建自我信任所带来的巨大治愈力量。 在谈到受害者的人数规模时，拉马尼博士表示她至少接诊过数百位个案，但她更倾向于使用“幸存者（survivor）”而非“受害者”，因为这些人从来不是被动接受伤害，只是此前从未有人教过他们如何识别这种危险。她将自恋关系与成瘾家庭做出了极具深度的对比： - **成瘾关系的透明性**：当伴侣面对成瘾者时，行为问题一目了然。家属清楚对方是生病了，面对的是“清醒”与“发作”两个不同状态的人，成瘾是一种公认的、可治疗的疾病，外界能给予理解和同情。 - **自恋关系的隐蔽与残忍**：自恋者没有明确的病理性发作期，相反，他们掌握着一套高度成熟且极具欺骗性的行为技巧。他们在外表上魅力四射、自信干练、身居高位，但在闭门之后，却在心理层面对伴侣、亲人和下属进行毫无底线的精神凌迟（psychologically eviscerate）。外界对其一片赞誉，导致身处其中的受虐者陷入彻底的孤立无援与认知错乱。 ### [09:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=571s) 自恋的本质与临床画像 在一段充斥着自恋型虐待的关系中，外界的误解往往会加剧受害者的痛苦。旁人常会艳羡地说：“能嫁给那样的男人，你多有福气啊！”而伴侣内心却在哀嚎：“这些人是疯了吗？”在无人理解的孤立中，受害者最终只能将一切归咎于自己。当主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）坦言自己虽频繁听到“自恋”（Narcissism）这个词，却很难给出精准定义时，拉马尼·杜瓦苏拉博士（Dr. Ramani Durvasula）先邀请他给出自己的直觉判断。史蒂文给出的答案是“夸大妄想、自命不凡、认为自己高人一等、傲慢以及残忍”。拉马尼博士幽默地评价道，如果这是课堂答卷，她大概会给个“C+ 或 B-”，因为这些描述确实摸到了门槛，但残忍与傲慢更多是深层特质向外爆发的表现形式。 拉马尼博士随后给出了自恋的系统性临床定义。自恋者的核心特征在于极度受限且波动的共情能力（通常处于极低水平）、深层的特权感（Entitlement），他们坚信自己与众不同，世俗规则不该约束自己。此外，他们对崇拜和认可有着无休止的病态渴望，性格极度浮于表面，缺乏维系持久深度亲密关系的能力。自恋者没有健全的内在价值坐标，不知道自己内心真正珍视什么，他们的所有目标完全依赖于外部世界的眼光，以此换取外界的喝彩。这种情感上的浅薄，使他们极其自我中心，几乎从不主动抬起头去真诚感知另一个人的真实体验与痛苦。 在日常人际互动中，自恋特质会转化为极具破坏性的具体行为： - **贬低与漠视**：肆意践踏他人的价值，轻视伴侣的情绪与诉求。 - **心理操纵与煤气灯效应（Gaslighting）**：扭曲事实以掌控对方的心智。 - **情绪爆发与冷暴力**：遭遇挫折或失望时极易暴怒，表现为公开的咆哮、斥责甚至肢体暴力，或转为被动攻击、情感剥夺与冷漠抽离。 - **背叛与虚假承诺**：习惯性撒谎、出轨，开出永远不会兑现的空头支票以绑架对方留在身边。 - **推卸责任与道德绑架**：即使犯错被当场抓获，也绝不认错，反而倒打一耙怪罪受害者，永远争强好胜抢夺最后一句话的解释权。 --- ### [12:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=753s) 坏日子、混蛋与自恋者的界限 面对这些破坏性行为，史蒂文提出了一个许多人都会困惑的问题：当一个人睡眠不足、状态糟糕时，偶尔也可能推卸责任或乱发脾气，我们该如何区分“某人只是度过了糟糕的一天”、“单纯的混蛋（Asshole）”以及“真正的自恋者”？拉马尼博士明确指出，关键的分水岭在于**事后的责任担当与行为模式的广度**。一个心智健全的普通人在状态极差时或许会表现得一团糟，但事后他们会主动反省：“我昨天的言行非常不妥，真的很对不起。”他们明白缺乏睡眠不是伤害他人的借口，并会做出补偿和行为修正。更重要的是，“糟糕的一天”仅仅是一天，而不是人生的常态；而在与自恋者的相处中，绝大多数日子都充斥着操纵与否定，伴侣永远如履薄冰、处于防备姿态，不敢表达任何需求或感受。 至于“混蛋”与“自恋者”的区别，拉马尼博士风趣地调侃学术界对“混蛋构念”的效度验证或许尚需时日，但两者在行为模式上有着本质差异。典型的混蛋往往表里如一，对谁都是一副惹人讨厌的德行；自恋者却拥有极为宽泛且精妙的“行为剧目”（Behavioral Repertoire）。他们懂得精准切换人格面具：在公司的高尔夫球场上，他们能对首席执行官展现出极致的魅力与温情，不仅风度翩翩，还能精准记住对方孩子的年龄、体贴地询问其生病的祖母；可一旦踏入家门，他们会立刻原形毕露，不仅忘光结婚纪念日，还会对着伴侣大发雷霆，咆哮着抱怨屋子凌乱并勒令孩子闭嘴。这种在外界魅力四射、在私下残酷剥削的双面性，正是自恋者的典型印记。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 识别行为模式的归因路径 accDescr: 通过行为一致性与事后反思区分状态欠佳、普通混蛋与自恋者 A["伤害性或失控行为"] --> B{"发生频率与范围？"} subgraph S1["偶尔偶发"] B -- "偶发且事后反思" --> C["糟糕的一天 (Bad Day)"] C --> C1["主动承担责任并道歉"] C --> C2["调整自身行为，避免再犯"] end subgraph S2["长期且持续"] B -- "长期模式" --> D{"人前人后的行为一致性？"} D -- "无差别粗暴无礼" --> E["混蛋 (Asshole)"] D -- "选择性展现魅力与残忍" --> F["自恋者 (Narcissist)"] F --> F1["对外：魅力非凡、体贴周到"] F --> F2["对内：贬低推责、情感暴虐"] end ``` --- ### [15:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=925s) 自恋能被治愈吗？治疗室里的“微小改变” 对于“自恋能否被治愈”的尖锐提问，拉马尼博士给出了斩钉截铁的否定回答：“我认为不能，因为治愈意味着彻底重塑一个人的人格，而这是我们做不到的。”在她长达二十多年与自恋者及其受害者打交道的临床生涯中，她从未见过任何一个自恋者蜕变成非自恋者。尽管在长期心理治疗中，自恋者可能会在严密的框架约束下展现出微弱的“微小改变”（Micro-changes）——例如不再故意迟到十分钟并强求补足时长、愿意遵守咨询协议、临时爽约时愿意主动支付账单，甚至在咨询室里反思“我昨晚又对女友大吼了，这确实不太好”。 虽然心理咨询师会将这些具有洞察力的瞬间视为宝贵的积极苗头，但拉马尼博士残酷地指出了现实的困境：这些微小的进步，对于那些饱受摧残的伴侣和家人而言完全是杯水车薪。现实往往是伤害早已积重难返（"water under the bridge"）。受害者不可能仅仅因为自恋者在某一周终于破天荒地道了一次谢，就选择原谅经年累月的创伤并继续忍气吞声。对咨询师来说，那是一丝进步；但对生活在水深火热中的受害者而言，这一声微不足道的“谢谢”根本无法弥补过往的毁灭性伤害。 --- ### [16:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1005s) 性别差异与自恋的分型：夸大型 vs 隐蔽脆弱型 在探讨自恋的性别分布时，史蒂文分享了一个有趣的互联网搜索现象：网络上极少有人搜索“我的妻子是自恋者吗”，反而充斥着大量关于“我的丈夫是自恋者吗”的查询。然而拉马尼博士指出，自恋绝非男性专属。在临床实践中，她接触过大量被自恋妻子折磨的男性来访者、遭受伴侣虐待的女同性恋伴侣，以及大量女性自恋案例。自恋并不受性别限制，但**自恋的临床分型在性别表现上存在显著差异**： - **夸大型自恋（Grandiose Narcissism）**：在男性群体中更为普遍。这是大众认知中最传统的典型自恋，表现为狂妄招摇、光芒四射、极具超凡魅力（Charismatic）、喜欢炫耀且追逐聚光灯。与脆弱型自恋者不同，夸大型自恋者往往拥有宏大的野心，并且具备极强的执行力，因此在现实世界中常常能够取得世俗意义上的巨大成功。但由于其自恋本质，他们习惯在合作中过河拆桥、搞暗箱操作或无情排挤他人；一旦感到被冒犯或失望，他们会毫不掩饰地公开宣泄怒火。 - **恶性自恋（Malignant Narcissism）**：融合了反社会人格与偏执倾向的极端自恋形态，同样在男性中更为高发。 - **脆弱型自恋（Vulnerable Narcissism / 隐蔽型自恋）**：**在男女比例上几乎完全均等**。这类自恋者没有夸大型那种张扬外露的魅力，反而伴随着社交焦虑、阴郁孤僻、怨恨不满与受害者心态。他们常常处于“难以成事”（Failure to launch）的状态，整日沉浸在对世界的不公抱怨中，愤愤不平于“凭什么好事总轮不到我”、“明明我比他优秀，凭什么升职的是他”。这种将自身无能转化为强烈敌意与受害者身份的自恋形态，极具隐蔽性与破坏力。 ### [19:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1153s) 脆弱型与自大型自恋者的两面性 Dr. Ramani 进一步剖析了自大型（Grandiose）与脆弱型（Vulnerable）自恋者之间的动态转换。自大型自恋者在亲密关系中通常缺乏诚实，极易背叛并苛待伴侣，但面向整个外部世界时，他们往往表现得“光芒万丈、高大伟岸”。相比之下，脆弱型自恋者则表现为深陷受害者心态、社交焦虑、充满愤怒与怨恨，常带有某种“难以迈向成熟独立”（failure-to-launch）的阴郁气质。 很多人甚至认为这两种形态本质上是一体两面：只要自大型自恋者的“自恋供给”（narcissistic supply）充足——事业顺遂、大把吸金、万众瞩目、感觉自己无所不能，他们就能维持自信爆棚的高姿态；然而，一旦天平倾斜，生活全面崩盘——财富付诸东流、失去体面工作、伴侣离去或社会地位轰然倒塌，他们潜藏的脆弱面就会全面爆发。他们会立刻扮演起怨恨交织的受害者，四处叫嚣“这是针对我的政治迫害（witch hunt）”、“所有人都在合伙害我”，甚至产生低度的偏执妄想。反之，脆弱型自恋者在运势好转时也能短暂体验自大的高潮，但每个人通常都有一个主导倾向，而另一面则是隐藏在底层的暗面。 ### [20:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1228s) 恶性自恋：通往精神病态的最后一站 谈到恶性自恋（Malignant Narcissism），Dr. Ramani 将其定性为人际关系中破坏力最大、最危险的严重形态。这种自恋者将极端的操控、剥削与强迫手段发挥到极致，甚至利用威胁与孤立作为掌控他人的工具，手段狠辣且报复心极强。Dr. Ramani 给出了一句极为生动的警示：“恶性自恋是列车开进‘精神病态（Psychopathy）车站’之前的最后一站。” 为了说明恶性自恋的结构，她引入了心理学中的“黑暗四联征”（Dark Tetrad），并提出了自己的补充见解： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 恶性自恋与黑暗人格特质模型 accDescr: 展示构成黑暗四联征的四项核心特质以及Dr. Ramani建议补充的偏执倾向 subgraph DT["黑暗人格模型 (Dark Tetrad & Beyond)"] direction TB N["自恋 (Narcissism)<br/>虚荣与特权感"] P["精神病态 (Psychopathy)<br/>冷酷与缺乏良知"] M["马基雅维利主义 (Machiavellianism)<br/>不择手段利用他人"] S["施虐倾向 (Sadism)<br/>见他人受苦而感到快意"] PA["偏执狂倾向 (Paranoia)<br/>Dr. Ramani 提议加入的第五维度"] end DT --> MN["恶性自恋 (Malignant Narcissism)<br/>融合表层魅力、算计冷酷与潜在危险性"] ``` 当被问及这是否就是“连环杀手”的画像时，Dr. Ramani 澄清连环杀手更偏向纯粹的精神病态者，两者在神经生物学与遗传学特征上存在明确分野： - **精神病态者（Psychopaths）**：由于大脑功能与共情神经机制的根本缺失，他们完全没有懊悔（remorse）或负罪感，不是不明白道理，而是缺乏任何共情能力。 - **恶性自恋者（Malignant Narcissists）**：他们心里清楚自己的所作所为是错误的，但冷酷的算计、浅薄浮夸的魅力以及看到伤害自己的人受折磨时所获得的施虐快感，驱使他们依然选择伤害他人。 ### [22:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1356s) 伪善的救世主：群体性自恋 第四种形态是群体性自恋（Communal Narcissism）。该概念于 2003 年前后由慕尼黑大学的学者 Jochen Gebauer 等人提出。这类自恋者获取自恋供给的方式并非通过传统的“看我多有钱、多成功”，而是披上“大慈善家”、“人道主义者”或“救世主”的道德外衣。他们行善的核心动力根本不是出于对难民或濒危动物的真正悲悯，而是为了收获外界崇拜的掌声与“高尚道德”的虚名。 Dr. Ramani 强调，所有心理健康特质都分布在连续谱系（spectrum）上，群体性自恋也不例外： - **轻度谱系表现**：如同社交媒体上的“摆拍救世主”。例如穿着比基尼在海滩上象征性地捡垃圾，本质上是为了炫耀身材博取点赞，一旦大众没有为他们的“善举”起立鼓掌，他们就会恼羞成怒。 - **重度谱系表现**：直接演变为“邪教领袖（Cult Leader）”。他们宣称自己掌握了宇宙终极真理，以拯救为名彻底剥夺信徒的自我意识与自尊，同时坚信自己是在施恩。Dr. Ramani 总结道，所有邪教领袖本质上都是群体性自恋与恶性自恋的致命结合体。 ### [25:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1513s) 人群占比：每六个人中就有一个自恋者？ 究竟有多少人属于自恋者？Dr. Ramani 直言该问题极难测算，因为自恋者几乎不可能在心理问卷中如实承认自己“极度自私”或“善于玩弄手段”。流行病学研究中，正式确诊为自恋型人格障碍（NPD）的比例约为 1% 至 6%，但这仅局限于极其严苛的临床诊断标准。 如果以“表现出足够明显的自恋人格特质、足以对周围人造成实质伤害与消耗”为基准，Dr. Ramani 给出的经验预估值（spitball number）大约在 **15% 到 18%** 之间，即相当于每六个人中就有一人（1 in 6）。这一比例在超大都会区以及特定名利行业中更高，而在强调守望相助、人际依存度极高的小城镇中则可能降至八分之一左右。 听到这一数字，主持人 Steven Bartlett 调侃道：“你今天已经见过包括我在内的六名团队成员了。”Dr. Ramani 笑着拆台：“我才见了四个，所以你还有两个名额的余地。”随后她幽默地补刀：目前见到的每一位员工都比前一个更加甜美善良，因此“Steven，现在唯一坐在‘嫌疑热度席’上的人就是你了！” ### [27:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1647s) 社交媒体是自恋的催化剂还是放大器？ 面对“1 in 6”的高比例，Steven 追问社交媒体是否正在“批量制造”自恋者。Dr. Ramani 明确划清了界限：社交媒体是自恋的“放大器”（amplifier），而非“创造者”（creator）。 人格特质是一种社会情感发展现象，深植于从婴儿期延续至青春期的成长轨迹中。一个心理健康、品格端正的年轻人哪怕在 18 岁时疯狂沉迷于在 Instagram 上发自拍，这也只会让他显得“有些无聊和肤浅”，绝不可能凭空将其重塑为一个自恋者；唯有当个体本身就潜藏着自恋人格特质的萌芽时，社交平台的即时反馈机制才会像催化剂一样将其彻底诱发和放大。 ### [28:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1689s) 社交媒体是自恋的加速器：分享生活还是寻求认同？ 在探讨社交媒体与自恋的关系时，史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提出了一个常见疑问：在社交网络上发自拍或旅游照片，就代表一个人自恋吗？比如假设有个叫“杰克”的朋友去爬山，在网上发了海量照片，这算不算自恋？拉马尼·杜瓦苏拉博士（Dr. Ramani Durvasula）明确指出，仅仅发照片绝不能直接与自恋划等号。如果杰克本质上是个善良热心的人，只是单纯兴奋地想和大家分享旅途，那完全没有问题；哪怕他偶尔带着一点点微妙的炫耀心理（甚至略带看别人羡慕的幸灾乐祸），只要他在现实相处中全情投入、懂得关心他人，杰克就绝不是自恋者。判断的关键从来不是线上的几张照片，而是现实互动中的真实状态——“当你真正和他面对面在一起时，他的专注度与临场感（presence）究竟如何？” 拉马尼博士回忆道，当社交媒体最初兴起时，她已经四十多岁，并且已经投身于自恋心理学的研究。当时有人向她展示这些新兴平台，她的第一反应是倒吸一口凉气，内心惊呼：“天呐，休斯敦，我们有麻烦了（Houston, we have a problem）。”过去，一个自恋者如果渴望获得外界的赞赏与认可（validation），他必须刮好胡子、洗好澡、走出家门，到职场、家庭圈子或者街角酒吧里去社交，不可能光坐在家里就能收集崇拜；而且在过去的胶片相机时代，盲拍自拍往往只能拍到半个脑袋或嘴巴。然而，社交媒体的诞生给了自恋者一个坐在家里就能向全世界喊话的超级扩音器：“看我多优秀！”拉马尼博士强调，社交媒体并没有凭空创造出更多的自恋者，但它就像“泼在一场本就在燃烧的大火上的助燃剂”，将自恋特质无限放大。 针对史蒂芬打趣所说的“把他们关在家里发照片，总比让他们在街上乱晃伤害别人要安全”，拉马尼博士引发了一个更深刻的社会心理学层面的担忧：自恋者在网上打造“看我的生活比你好多少、我有多成功”的完美人设，本质上是为了对抗其内心深处的核心创伤——深层的不安全感。然而，无数本身绝非自恋、只是内心脆弱且自我价值感不高的普通人，日复一日地刷着这些被精心修饰的内容，会陷入强烈的自我怀疑：“大家的生活都这么好，我到底哪里出了问题？”这种虚假繁荣最终催生了一个让脆弱群体更加自我贬低的有毒网络空间。 --- ### [31:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1865s) 网络喷子与隐蔽型自恋的爆发 谈及网络表达时，史蒂芬开玩笑说现在大约每六个人里就有一个人在做播客，似乎人人都觉得自己有特别有趣的话要说。拉马尼博士笑着提醒，社会不应该将人们全新的人际互动方式过度病理化。分享早餐、晒风景照或通过播客发声，大多只是表达与交流的正常形式。拉马尼博士以自己二十出头的两个女儿为例，年轻一代伴随着数字技术成长，她们熟练运用社交工具维系着一张庞大而分布广泛的朋友网络，并在其中保持着真实而紧密的情感连结。 拉马尼博士指出，人类即将迎来社交媒体诞生的第 20 个年头，科学界也将首次获得完整追踪一群孩子从产房出生一直被记录到青春期的纵向发展数据，这些数据将极具启示意义。从目前来看，显性/自大狂型自恋者（Grandiose Narcissists）在人类历史上一直存在，他们成为历史人物、政治领袖或城镇长官，社交媒体并没有显著增加这类人的数量。 社交媒体真正带来爆发式恶化的是**脆弱型/隐蔽型自恋（Vulnerable Narcissism）**： - **强烈的不平衡与嫉妒**：隐蔽型自恋者看到别人展示的光鲜生活时，会产生极度强烈的怨恨与不公感，愤恨为什么别人能拥有自己得不到的关注与美好。 - **网络喷子（Internet Trolls）的温床**：这种愤恨与无处宣泄的攻击性，正是当今互联网键盘侠和网络恶意攻击泛滥的核心心理动力，大部分网络恶意言论都可以由隐蔽型自恋心理来解释。 --- ### [32:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1966s) 自恋形成的双重路径：创伤忽视与“过度评价” 针对自恋究竟由先天基因还是后天环境决定的核心问题，拉马尼博士从先天“气质（Temperament）”切入。每个人从出生的那一刻起就带有不同的先天特质，正如史蒂芬作为家里四个孩子中最小的一个，兄弟姐妹之间的性格可能大相径庭。有的孩子生来轻松随和；有的孩子一出生就像紧绷的神经球，极难被安抚；还有的孩子片刻不得安宁。当一个孩子携带着高敏感、高神经质、难以自我抚慰的脆弱生物学气质时，其成长环境将决定他未来的心理走向。 自恋人格的形成主要存在两条截然不同却殊途同归的发展路径： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自恋人格形成的双重路径模型 accDescr: 展示脆弱生理气质在创伤逆境或过度评价两种家庭环境下发展为自恋人格的心理机制。 subgraph Heritage ["先天生理基础"] T["易感/脆弱型先天气质<br/>（情绪难以安抚、需求度极高）"] end subgraph Pathway1 ["路径一：逆境创伤与情感虐待"] E1["早期生活逆境<br/>（忽视、创伤、家庭暴力、成瘾）"] E2["情感否定与贬低<br/>（‘闭嘴、老实坐着、看看你姐姐’）"] P1["防御性壳体形成：<br/>以虚妄自尊防御内心极度脆弱"] end subgraph Pathway2 ["路径二：过度评价与情感匮乏"] O1["父母过度夸大特权<br/>（‘你比任何人都特别，不必排队’）"] O2["真实情感长期饥渴<br/>（物质充沛，但真实情绪从未被镜映）"] P2["虚妄特权感内化：<br/>缺乏自我调节与内心情感地图"] end T --> E1 & E2 E1 & E2 --> P1 T --> O1 & O2 O1 & O2 --> P2 P1 & P2 --> N["成年期自恋人格风险"] ``` - **路径一：逆境创伤与情感否定** 当具有脆弱气质的孩子置身于充满否定、创伤、忽视、家庭暴力或成瘾问题的混乱环境中，遭受长期的情感虐待（例如不断被呵斥“闭嘴、坐下、你为什么就不能像你姐姐一样”），孩子为了抵御极度的无价值感，便会发展出坚硬的防御机制，逐渐演变为自恋。 - **路径二：过度评价（The Overvalued Child）** 阿姆斯特丹大学埃迪·布鲁梅尔曼（Eddie Brummelman）教授以及大师森（James F. Masterson）等学者的研究揭示了第二条路径。这类孩子从小被父母灌输特权观念：“你比其他任何孩子都特别”，因此你不需要排队，必须选你挑中的老师，要什么就给什么。 - **丧失自我调节能力**：孩子完全轻信了父母打造的虚假光环，未能在挫折中学会自我安抚与情绪调控。 - **情感荒漠与特权错觉**：这些孩子在物质和特权上“要什么有什么”，但他们的内心世界其实极度贫瘠。父母从未真正关注、镜像（mirror）和接纳他们真实的脆弱与情绪，导致他们从未建立起属于自己的“情绪地图（atlas of emotions）”。 --- ### [35:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2155s) 只能倒推而无法预言的发展轨迹 拉马尼博士特别警示，尽管这两条路径在自恋者的成长史中十分普遍，但绝不意味着经历过这些环境的孩子就一定会变成自恋者。事实上，绝大多数经历过逆境或被过度溺爱的孩子最终都没有成为自恋者。自恋的成因高度复杂，是一个由多重因素共同决定的（multi-determined）漫长过程。 因此，拉马尼博士提出了一个著名的临床判断原则： > “自恋是一个我们总能‘倒推’回顾、却极难‘正向’预测的故事（Narcissism is one of those stories we can always tell backwards, but it's really difficult to tell forwards）。” 许多焦虑的父母常常跑来向拉马尼博士求助，抱怨自己 17 岁的青春期儿子态度恶劣、不做家务、不肯掏空洗碗机，甚至对父母出言不逊，询问孩子是不是自恋者。拉马尼博士给这些父母的回答通常是：“10 年后再给我打电话。”因为在这个阶段，几乎无法断定这是自恋人格的固化，还是仅仅属于青少年为了确立自我独立性（individuation）而经历的正常叛逆期——绝大多数年轻人度过青春期后，都会自然成熟为一个体面、善良的成年人。史蒂芬顺着这个话题进一步发问：既然自恋并非非黑即白，且存在于一个连续谱系上，这是否意味着每个人身上多多少少都会带有一点自恋特质？拉马尼博士由此开启了关于自恋谱系与程度差异的探讨。 ### [36:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2211s) 轻度自恋者的画像：肤浅而消耗人的玩伴 Dr. Ramani 进一步剖析了处于自恋光谱较温和一端（轻度自恋）人群的表现。她认为形容这类人最贴切的词就是“令人烦躁”（annoying）。他们情绪极度不成熟、肤浅空洞（vapid），且极其自我中心。在人际交往中，这种不平衡体现得淋漓尽致：当他们遇到麻烦或情绪低落时，会理所当然地要求全世界为他们停下运转，强求朋友随叫随到，接听长达数小时的抱怨电话；然而，一旦朋友深陷困境需要支持时，他们却瞬间消失得无影无踪，甚至冷漠地甩出一句“我现在可没时间管这个”。 不过在某些浅层社交场景中，轻度自恋者有时显得十分有趣。他们总是热衷于追逐潮流，拉着大家去最新、最时髦的场所打卡，在聚会上放声大笑、纵情跳舞、极力博取全场关注。与他们相处片刻或许会带来短暂的欢愉，但 Dr. Ramani 严正指出，与这样的人建立长期承诺关系、共同抚养孩子，或是由这样的父母抚养长大，都会让人承受巨大的痛苦与折磨。 --- ### [37:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2264s) 资本主义与自恋者的职场红利 当 Steven Bartlett 问及“自恋者在职业上是否更成功”时，Dr. Ramani 给出了极为肯定的回答：“是的，他们要成功得多，而这正是问题的根源。”虽然不能一概而论，但自恋者往往拥有极强的野心。对于普通人来说，追求成功固然重要，但内心仍有平衡的底线——只要拥有挚爱的家人朋友、银行里有足够的储蓄、温饱有着落，便能感到知足常乐；但对自恋者而言，成功与外界赞美关乎生死，是维持其心理存活的“血液与氧气”，背后的赌注无比高昂。 因此，自恋者在领导层中占据了更高的比例，也更容易赚取巨额财富，尤其在男性群体中，自恋型男性的收入往往远超宜人性高（agreeable）的男性，在约会市场上也看似无往不利。更残酷的现实在于，现存的现代经济与资本主义体系在结构上完美迎合了自恋特质：它是一个高度竞争的机制，崇尚“成王败寇”，只重结果（outcome）而不问过程（process）。在任何只以终局结果为唯一衡量指标的考核体系中，自恋者几乎总是能踩着他人胜出。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代资本主义与自恋特质的相互契合机制 accDescr: 展示自恋者的心理动机如何与资本主义唯结果论体系结合并在职场中获胜 subgraph NarcissistTraits ["自恋者心理机制"] A["渴求外界认可与赞美"] --> B["将成功视为生死存亡的刚需"] B --> C["为了获胜不惜一切代价<br/>缺乏同理心与底线"] end subgraph EconomicSystem ["现代经济与职场结构"] D["资本主义高度竞争环境"] --> E["唯结果论评价指标<br/>(Heavy Outcome Metrics)"] E --> F["忽视达成手段与人际伤害过程"] end C --> G["登上领导层与积累财富"] F --> G ``` --- ### [38:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2337s) 伟大创新的代价：自恋是否值得被原谅？ Steven 借此引申探讨了商业史上那些改变世界的标志性企业（例如苹果公司 Apple）。外界常听到传闻，这些缔造传奇的领导者在对待员工与身边人时，手段残忍严苛，高度符合自恋者的行为特征；但公众往往会以其带来的伟大创新、推动世界变革或带领民众渡过危机的功绩，来原谅甚至美化他们的恶劣行径。Steven 提出了一个直击本质的问题：“为了他们带给世界的那些成果，容忍这些自恋是否值得？” Dr. Ramani 承认这是一个跨入哲学维度的心理学难题。历史上许多战时总统、首相，以及像发明家托马斯·爱迪生（Thomas Alva Edison）这样的人物，档案记录都表明他们私下绝非善类。但往往正是这种不顾他人死活、将员工逼至非人极限的偏执与果断，才促成了惊人的产出与历史转折： - **生而适合创新**：自恋者具有天然的宏大妄想（grandiose）和造梦特质，他们极度渴望万人景仰的聚光灯。 - **舞台与掌声的驱动**：在科技大会聚光灯耀眼的舞台中央展示极简精致的产品、接受全场掌声，这种渴望就是他们的全部生命。 - **不可替代的产物**：人类确实从自恋者手中享受到了无数惊艳的产品与技术，世界永远不可能彻底消灭自恋者。 - **给大众的警戒底线**：Dr. Ramani 给出的核心忠告非常简短有力：“我们从他们那里得到了很多酷炫的成果，但千万别和他们结婚（Just don't marry them）。” --- ### [41:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2466s) 具同理心的 CEO 为何是凤毛麟角的“独角兽”？ 面对“是否有人能在研发非凡产品、怀揣将掌上电脑装进每个人口袋的野心的同时，依然保持非自恋与同理心”的追问，Dr. Ramani 认为理论上完全可能，但极其罕见。在残酷的商业世界中，“具同理心的首席执行官”（Empathic CEO）简直如同独角兽般稀缺。 CEO 的工作本质上需要对太多利益主体负责：董事会与股东、管理团队、基层员工。高处不胜寒的博弈需要极强的伪装与变色龙般的手段。如果一个极具同理心的人坐在这个位置上，真正用心去体恤关照每一个服务对象的疾苦与情绪，很快就会彻底倦怠崩溃（burnout）。从某种意义上说，“冷漠与不在乎”反倒成了自恋型高管在残酷竞争中自我保全的防具。 Steven 结合自身创办的 Web3 公司 ThirdWeb 分析指出，当今许多商业赛道属于零和博弈（zero-sum game）甚至是“赢家通吃”（winner-takes-all）格局，如同亚马逊（Amazon）或谷歌（Google）几乎吞噬全行业绝大部分市场份额。在这种赢家通吃的环境下，最冷酷无情、最乐意践踏道德底线、将利润凌驾于人性之上的人，短期内最容易迅速登顶变现；然而，这种恶劣行径往往也会让他们最终落入法网或身败名裂。Dr. Ramani 对此指出，真正的傲慢（arrogance）正是源于一种深层侥幸心理——“我哪怕做了坏事，也绝对能逃脱惩罚”。 --- ### [43:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2620s) 金钱如何滋生特权：双脚不沾地的“气泡人生” 讨论转向“金钱是否会让人变得更加自恋”。Dr. Ramani 引用她在著作《Don't You Know Who I Am?》中的观点解释道：金钱必然会滋生特权感（privilege）与特权索取心态（entitlement）。 长期拥有财富的人会经历一种“双脚从未接触过地面”（feet that never touch the ground）的生活状态： - 他们乘坐专属豪车直达机场，无需与普通大众一起在安检处排长队； - 他们入住顶奢套房，一日三餐由专人奉上，无需为柴米油盐焦虑； - 他们免于承受常人生活中的种种琐碎屈辱与摩擦，因而失去了自我情绪调节的必要性。 这种如同被气泡膜层层包裹的生活，使得富人甚至连 Target 超市的自助结账机都不会操作。对此，Steven 提及了加利福尼亚大学心理学家保罗·皮夫（Paul Piff）关于财富心理学的经典实验： - **道德滑坡**：实验中被诱导产生“更富有心理感受”的受试者，更倾向于认可不道德决策，例如顺手牵羊偷拿办公室文具或糖果； - **自私倾向**：感觉自己更富裕的人，向慈善机构捐款的意愿更低； - **情绪导向**：富足感更强的人，表达幸福感的方式高度集中于自我导向的情绪（如自豪、满足、取悦自我），而相对贫困的人则更多认同利他与关注他人的陈述。 Dr. Ramani 完全赞同该研究的结论：金钱与富足感会让人变得更加自我指涉（self-referential），甚至在言行举止上变成令人讨厌的混蛋。紧接着，她又提到了 Paul Piff 在加州奥兰治县（Orange County）繁忙十字路口针对机动车让行行为进行的另一项极具代表性的实地观察研究。 ### [45:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2744s) 财富、特权意识与自恋供给 研究表明，驾驶豪车的人在遇到停止路标（Stop sign）时，完全停稳的概率远低于开中档车的司机；不仅如此，目前已有至少十几项已发表的研究证实自恋者在驾驶时往往更加危险。关于金钱究竟是否会把人变自恋，Dr. Ramani 指出，如果一个人在三三十岁成年时本就是一个温和友善、富有同理心且具备高度自我反省能力的人，暴富并不会凭空将其变成自恋狂。然而，金钱构筑的“防护泡沫”确实会侵蚀甚至剥离这层自我反省，使他们脱离普通大众所生活的真实世界，滋生出与现实脱节的特权意识——他们可能会困惑地抱怨：“为什么我们要在这里排队？怎么效率这么低下？”但这种表现更偏向于特权带来的脱节感，而非出于恶意去贬损“这群蠢人居然让我排队”。 金钱本身并不一定会把心智成熟的好人彻底腐化成恶人，但它毫无疑问是终极的“自恋供给”（Narcissistic Supply）。金钱能直接兑换权力、换来周遭狂热的赞赏与艳羡，甚至能大幅提升获取性伴侣的容易程度。正因如此，自恋者天生就被金钱强力驱动，会不择手段地追逐财富，将其视作获取自恋供给的最快捷径。金钱打造的温室最终演化为傲慢的特权感，驱动着他们进一步膨胀自我。 - **危险驾驶研究**：至少十余项学术研究证实，自恋特质评分高的人在道路上呈现出更具攻击性和危险性的驾驶行为。 - **金钱的本质功能**：自恋者将金钱视为收割社会赞许、优越感、权势与性吸引力的强效杠杆。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 金钱对不同人格特质人群的影响路径 accDescr: 展示具有自我觉察的普通人与自恋者在面对金钱诱惑时的不同心理与行为反应。 subgraph Normal["具有共情力与自我觉察的普通人"] N1["获得巨额财富与资源"] --> N2["脱离普通大众的生活环境"] N2 --> N3["产生脱节感与效率困惑<br/>（并非恶意蔑视他人）"] end subgraph Narcissist["自恋型人格"] P1["对金钱展开不择手段的追逐"] --> P2["兑换终极自恋供给<br/>（权力、崇拜、性）"] P2 --> P3["特权感加剧与去抑制<br/>（蔑视规则与践踏他人）"] end ``` --- ### [47:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2859s) 自恋测试的局限与自知型自恋者 当人们探讨“自恋者是否知道自己是自恋狂”时，现存的五六种自恋量表其实都存在测量缺陷。自恋特质本身属于“非社会所期望”（Socially Undesirable）的行为模式，自恋者往往会严重高估自己的同理心与慷慨善良，同时极度低估自身行为给他人带来的负面伤害，他们眼中的自己与真实世界存在着近乎妄想般的严重脱节。现实中常常会有咨客主动找到 Dr. Ramani 惊慌地倾诉：“我觉得自己是个自恋者。”每当这时，Dr. Ramani 总会叫停并要求对方多讲讲细节。绝大多数产生这种自我怀疑的人，恰恰是因为深陷在与真正自恋者的长期关系中；当他们仅仅提出最基本的情感需求（例如“我们今晚能不能去我想吃的那家餐厅”、“我想聊聊我的感受”），就会立刻被对方反咬一口扣上“你怎么这么自私”的帽子，长期被煤气灯操纵（Gaslighting）而误以为自己才是那个冷酷自私的罪人。 真正具有自我认知的“自知型自恋者”（Self-aware narcissists）在现实中屈指可数，Dr. Ramani 坦言自己接待过的个案“一只手都数得过来”。这类人通常在阅读了自恋相关书籍、刷到 YouTube 心理学视频，或被他人指责后上网对比清单，并坦然承认：“对，我确实不在乎别人的死活，我确实觉得现实规则对我不管用。”更荒谬的是，许多人会将自恋视为一种“超能力”（Superpower），骄傲地将其当作叱咤商场的制胜法宝，挂在嘴边的口头禅是：“千万别剥夺我的自恋，正因如此我才拥有锐利的锋芒，我才能搞定大单，我才是这里的老大（I'm the man）！”甚至用“别恨玩家，要恨就恨游戏规则”（"Don't hate the player, hate the game."）来为自己对伴侣的持续情感虐待开脱。 --- ### [50:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3055s) 致命吸引力：从童话式开局到隐秘贬低 在亲密关系领域，人们往往好奇究竟什么样的人会被自恋者吸引，而 Dr. Ramani 直言：“所有普通人都会被他们吸引。”自恋者在社交初期极富魅力、自信满溢、谈吐风趣，并且研究证实他们的外貌往往被评为高吸引力，因为他们极度在意自己的身材打扮，掌握着最酷最前沿的餐厅与潮流话题。即便是带有阴郁、愤世嫉俗特质的“脆弱型自恋者”（Vulnerable narcissists），在初遇时也不会展现出怨气，而是伪装成一个亟待拯救的受伤孩童，精准击中那些富有拯救情结、同情心泛滥的人的心坎。而自恋者之所以被某人吸引，仅仅是因为对方能提供他们渴望的“供给”——出众的外貌、社会地位、资源或者人脉，所有能为自恋者增光添彩的外部筹码。 更核心的症结不在于“为何被吸引”，而在于“为什么受害者会深陷其中无法脱身”。自恋型关系的开局宛如跑马拉松的人在一开始就用尽全力冲刺，充满童话般的浪漫与梦幻。自恋者会全神贯注地迎合你、研究你，用超高浓度的关注迅速捕获你，让你就像一只被封进玻璃罩的珍贵蝴蝶。然而，通常在6周到6个月之间，“贬低阶段”（Devaluing stage）便会突兀降临：冷暴力、阴阳怪气的冷嘲热讽、同理心彻底缺席与情感剥夺接踵而至。此时，那些共情力强、宽容、心软且过度乐观的人最容易陷入自我怀疑的泥潭，他们会反复为伴侣的恶劣行径找借口（“他以前那么温柔，最近只是工作压力太大了”），加上自恋者偶尔施舍的几天温存，受害者便在“间歇性强化”中越陷越深。 - **脆弱型自恋的伪装**：以受害者或无辜孩童的柔弱姿态出现，激发具有高同理心个体的“拯救欲”。 - **自恋陷阱的演变周期**：前6周至6个月为高强度情感轰炸的“捕获期”，随后毫无征兆地滑向以否定、冷漠、贬低为主的控制期。 - **认知迷雾与忠诚枷锁**：在长期伴侣关系中，许多人即使饱受折磨也难以察觉伴侣是自恋者，因为将深爱的人归为心理病态在道德上被视为一种“不忠诚”的背叛，仅存的些许甜蜜足以让他们维持幻想。 ### [54:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3289s) 千刀万剐般的精神驯化与觉醒浪潮 身处自恋型关系中的人往往陷入极度的困惑之中。他们把一切出错的事情都归咎于自己，整日“如履薄冰”（walking on eggshells），在不知不觉中彻底改造了自己，只为迎合自恋伴侣的喜好。拉马尼博士（Dr. Ramani Durvasula）指出，这是一个极其缓慢的蚕食过程，更像是一种渐进式的精神驯化：“我常说，这种关系就像是‘千刀万剐般的凌迟’（death by a thousand cuts）。”因为每一处微小的伤害与妥协都在经年累月中悄然发生，直到某一天你猛然醒来，才会惊悚地反问自己：“我是谁？我究竟变成了什么样？我竟然完全沦落为另一个人的仆人，全天候为他服务。” 这种普遍的迷茫在近十年间迎来了转机。互联网的普及与相关内容的爆发式增长，让人们终于能够为自己的遭遇命名。受害者们纷纷在搜索引擎中输入：“我的伴侣毫无同理心、特权感极强，还总是对我大吼大叫。”随后，“自恋”（Narcissism）这个词赫然跃入眼帘，催生了一场认知革命。拉马尼博士回忆，当她在2015年出版《我该留下还是离开》（*Should I Stay or Should I Go?*）时，大众对此类议题的认知尚处于萌芽阶段，市面上针对该主题的书籍屈指可数。而随着信息的普及，人们越早认清现实，就越不容易陷入深度的精神驯化与创伤纽带（trauma bonding），从而能头脑清醒地决定未来的去留。 ### [56:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3368s) 识别病态关系的“3R”陷阱：反刍、遗憾与欣快回忆 拉马尼博士在著作中提出了衡量消极/自恋型关系的三大标志性心理特征，即“3R”机制： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自恋型关系中的3R心理困境 accDescr: 展示受害者在自恋关系中经历的三个心理陷阱：反刍思考、终生遗憾和欣快回忆。 subgraph 3R_Traps["自恋型虐待中的核心心理困境 (The Three Rs)"] R1["<b>反刍思考 (Rumination)</b><br/>强迫性过度解读冲突<br/>试图理清毫无逻辑的混乱局面"] R2["<b>终生遗憾 (Regret)</b><br/>面对无法改变的沉没成本与哀恸<br/>哀叹逝去的岁月与残缺的家庭"] R3["<b>欣快回忆 (Euphoric Recall)</b><br/>选择性美化微小的善意碎片<br/>合理化虐待行为以维系现状"] end R1 --> ToxicBond["创伤纽带 (Trauma Bond)<br/>陷入极度困惑与离开的恐慌"] R2 --> ToxicBond R3 --> ToxicBond ``` - **反刍思考（Rumination）**：这是一种强迫性的病态过度思考。当事人整日苦思冥想：“我到底做错了什么？事情为什么会变成这样？我该如何修复它？”本质上，受害者是在试图理解一件根本不合常理、不可理喻的事情。 - **遗憾与哀恸（Regret）**：这直接关乎深层的悲痛与哀伤。例如痛感“这就是我的父母，我这辈子都不可能与他们建立亲密慈爱的关系”；或是懊悔“我组建了这样一个婚姻，我的孩子永远看不到健康的婚姻典范”；又或是悲叹“我在这段关系里虚掷了整整20年，到头来一无所获，只有满身伤痕”。这种遗憾小到纠结一句话为何没说好，大到为半生的沉没成本痛哭。 - **欣快回忆（Euphoric Recall）**：身处自恋虐待中的人有着一种离奇的本领，能够从痛苦的泥潭中“精挑细选”出微不足道的甜蜜碎片，从而不断向自己合理化并维系现状。即使对方整整一个月都待其极其恶劣，但只要某一天去超市时顺手带回了两个蓝莓松饼，受害者便会感动落泪：“他居然给我带了最好吃的蓝莓松饼，他心里其实是有我的，我们还一起吃了松饼！”这种对偶发微小善意过度聚焦的机制，构建了受害者继续留在这段关系中的心理依据。 拉马尼博士强调，受害者很少一觉醒来就斩钉截铁地认为“这里是地狱，我要立刻逃离”。他们更多是陷入自我怀疑：“我为什么总是不够好？为什么我说什么他都不听？是不是我表达得不够清楚？我是不是疯了？”这种好坏交织的不确定性牢牢织成了创伤纽带；即使理智上清楚关系存在致命问题，一想到真正离开，内心依然会被排山倒海般的恐慌所吞噬。 ### [59:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3540s) 社交敏锐度不等于同理心：战术家的冷血操控 面对受害者的心理裂痕，自恋者非但不会给予安慰，反而会精准地利用这些脆弱。自恋者是天生的“战术专家”（expert tacticians），他们带入亲密关系的从来不是真情，而是策略。他们能一眼看穿对方内心的原始创伤：“啊，你最害怕被抛弃？那简直太好办了。”当受害者鼓起勇气说“我受够了，我要分手”时，自恋者往往会轻描淡写地回应：“好啊，那就彻底玩完吧。”这瞬间击溃了受害者的心理防线——因为受害者原本渴望听到的是对方挽留与争取的表态，结果反而直接跌入被遗弃的无底深渊。 许多自恋者在社会层面上表现得极为成功，其核心原因在于他们拥有极高的“社交敏锐度”（social perceptiveness），但公众常将其与同理心混为一谈。拉马尼博士明确指出二者的本质区别： - **同理心（Empathy）**：设身处地感受他人的痛苦与情感，并在行动中予以体恤和尊重。 - **社交敏锐度（Social Perceptiveness）**：精准洞察局势、察言观色并读懂人心，摸清他人的弱点、欲望与动机，进而以此为策略诱饵，“给他们想要的胡萝卜”，将其像木偶般操控在手心，牢牢锁在自己需要的工具人位置上。 ### [01:00:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3604s) 病态操纵：将亲密关系异化为单向收割 针对操纵行为，拉马尼博士区分了日常的人际操纵与自恋者的“病态操纵”（pathological manipulation）。在商业交易、推销打折或人际谈判中，人们或多或少都会为了达成目标使用一些游说与操纵技巧。然而，商业买卖有其明确的游戏规则与心理防御机制，双方心知肚明这属于交易博弈。 而在病态操纵中，操纵者不仅对他给对方造成的心理伤害毫无顾忌，更将自己的需求置于绝对至高无上的地位。更毒辣的是，自恋者能高超地扭曲事实，让受害者坚信自己的割肉牺牲、放弃边界全都是“为了受害者好”。受害者在踏入亲密关系或家庭生活时毫无防备，怀揣着真心、依恋与慈悲，却遭遇了冷血商人般的战略收割。自恋者的所有盘算与手段，最终目的只有一个：全方位满足其膨胀的自我利益。 ### [01:01:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3692s) 投射防御机制与出轨即兴推演 谈及自恋者最具杀伤力的心理防御机制时，拉马尼博士深入剖析了“投射”（Projection）。投射是一种极其原始的心理防御机制，当一个人潜意识深处感到极度不适、激发起强烈的羞耻感（shame）时，便会将自己身上那些令人难以忍受的情绪、特质或阴暗念头，原封不动地扣在他人头上，反咬一口。普通人偶尔也会投射，但自恋者却将其作为家常便饭。 为了具象化展示投射的荒诞与杀伤力，拉马尼博士与主持人史蒂文（Steven Bartlett）现场进行了一段出轨猜忌的即兴推演： > **拉马尼（佯装暴怒与猜忌）：** “史蒂文，你到底在给谁发短信？鬼鬼祟祟的！为什么不敢把手机拿给我看？我的天呐，你是不是需要全世界所有女孩都喜欢你才甘心？你整个人就是这么肤浅！现在就给我把手机交出来！” > **拉马尼（瞬间跳出角色，平静转向观众）：** “猜猜实际上是谁在外面搞外遇找备胎？——答案是我自己。” > **史蒂文（恍然大悟）：** “所以你是因为自己做了见不得人的坏事而感到不安，于是倒打一耙……” > **拉马尼：** “不，我甚至不需要是不安，我就是纯粹在干坏事！而且顺水推舟，我现在可以理直气壮地说：‘既然是你背叛了我，那我们就彻底分手吧！’——于是我便可以心安理得、不带一丝愧疚地跑去和我的新欢双宿双飞了。” 拉马尼博士指出，这是一个极为经典的降维打击案例。投射充斥在生活的方方面面：当自恋者撒谎成性时，他们会歇斯底里地指责你在撒谎；当自恋者内心极度自卑脆弱时，他们会冷嘲热讽你缺乏安全感；当自恋者自身感到局促不安时，他们会反过来攻击你表现失态。自恋者那层光鲜亮丽、充满魅力、傲慢自大的外表之下，掩盖着一个极度脆弱且千疮百孔的内部心理机制。 ### [01:03:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3808s) 火山与井盖隐喻：自恋者的防御机制与投射 拉玛尼医生用生动的“火山与井盖”隐喻来解释自恋者的内心构造。她指出，自恋者内心深处宛如一座蓄势待发的火山，里面的岩浆、气体与熔岩全都是羞耻感（Shame）与极度的不安全感（Insecurity）。因为这些脆弱与缺陷看起来并不“完美”，他们便筑起了一整套严密的心理防御机制——包括宏大自负（Grandiosity）、傲慢、魅力等，就像一块巨大的铸铁井盖死死压在火山喷发口上。这让他们能够对外维持“我是你认识的最聪明的人”这种完美无瑕、超凡脱俗的人设，假装那些不安全感根本不存在。 然而，现实生活中充满了随时可能踢翻这块“井盖”的琐事与挫折。无论是面对他人的批评与负面反馈、朋友的成就在他们之上、创业新项目受挫、想要的东西落空，还是日常琐事中的高速公路堵车、等电梯太久、咖啡店员做错了订单，乃至公司上市（IPO）表现不佳，任何细微的不顺遂都意味着他们“并非完美”。此时，井盖就会被猛地掀开，滚烫的岩浆和毒气瞬间喷涌而出，外在表现为剧烈的愤怒与心理投射（Projection）。自恋者每天可能要经历二十次这样的井盖松动，而通过将内在的过错与缺陷恶毒地投射、归咎到他人身上，他们才能在自我感觉中勉强维持那份理想化的外在形象。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自恋者的心理防御与爆发机制 accDescr: 展示自恋者如何通过外在防御掩盖内在羞耻，并在遭遇挫折时通过愤怒和投射爆发 subgraph Defense ["表象防御体系"] A["外在防御（铸铁井盖）<br/>宏大自负 / 傲慢 / 魅力 / 虚假完美"] B["内在核心（活火山）<br/>深层羞耻感 / 极度不安全感"] end subgraph Trigger ["日常诱发事件"] C["遭遇批评与负面反馈"] D["他人比自己更成功"] E["日常挫败 / 琐事不顺"] end subgraph Eruption ["防御失控与外化攻击"] F["井盖被掀开 / 毒气与熔岩溢出"] G["心理投射与暴怒：攻击、指责他人"] end B -.->|被压制隐藏| A C & D & E -->|冲击防御| F A -->|破防| F F --> G ``` ### [01:04:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3896s) 自恋者能接受反馈吗？ 自恋者本质上根本无法接受任何批评或建设性反馈。拉玛尼医生明确强调，他们完全不具备吸收和整合反馈的能力。唯一的微小例外，是当反馈来自于权力阶层远高于他们的人时——因为自恋者本质上是高度趋附等级制（Hierarchical climbing）的生物。例如，处于副总裁（VP）职位的自恋者面对自己崇拜的首席执行官（CEO）时，因为极度渴望成为对方、渴望跻身高层，他们表面上会表现出在倾听。 但这种倾听并不是真正的反思，正如主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）所总结的，这只是一种“达成目的的顺从策略”（Compliance as a means to an end）。在自恋者的大脑中，持续充斥着屏蔽外部声音的杂音。他们暗地里甚至会轻蔑地鄙夷上级：“这人真是个混蛋，换我来做这个职位能比他出色得多，他不过是运气好罢了。”自恋者虽然出于向上爬的野心表面顺从，但其内心的嫉妒与受挫感必须找到宣泄口。拉玛尼医生断言，自恋者在职场被迫咽下反馈后，绝不敢向上级发难，而是会转头寻找更脆弱的目标——下班回家对伴侣大发雷霆，或是在地铁上对陌生人、对家人朋友施泄怒火。 - **等级制顺从**：自恋者只对拥有绝对权威或更高权势的人低头，但仅限于表面顺从以获取晋升资本。 - **无法内化批评**：批评无法转化为自我修正，自恋者内心只会对其产生防御和怨恨。 - **脆弱目标转移**：在权威处受到的自尊打击，会被转移到地位较低或亲近的弱势群体（伴侣、家人、服务人员）身上进行暴怒宣泄。 ### [01:06:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3991s) 煤气灯效应（Gaslighting）的运作机制与心理操控 煤气灯效应（Gaslighting）本质上是一种残酷的情感虐待策略和权力压制手段。拉玛尼医生澄清道，这一手段完全建立在“信任假象”的基础之上，这也是为什么陌生人几乎无法对你实施真正的煤气灯操控；操控者往往是亲密伴侣、受信任的同事、家人，甚至是律师或医生等专业权威。操纵过程最初始于对受害者认知、记忆与现实体验的否定，操控者会斩钉截铁地声称：“那件事根本没发生过”、“我从来没说过这话”、“你在胡编乱造”、“我们压根没去过那里”。受害者起初通常会拿出证据反抗，例如拿出手机里的照片证明两人确实去过某地。 然而，煤气灯操纵者关心的从来不是事实真相，而是“权力压制”（Overpowering）。当受害者拿出照片作为铁证时，操纵者不仅不会认错，反而会立刻发动人格贬损与情感绑架：“天哪，你是我见过最斤斤计较的人！你特意翻遍手机照片就为了向我证明这个？难道我们的感情就是这样的？我真不知道自己还要不要继续跟这种人在一起！”这一反咬会让信任对方的受害者陷入极大的自责与混乱，开始反思自己是不是真的“太狭隘、太不可理喻”。 这种洗脑式操控在长年累月中反复上演，彻底摧毁受害者的现实感： - **摧毁自我信任**：操控者不断灌输“你疯了”、“你太蠢了”、“你记性有问题”、“你是不是得了失智症”、“你应该去看心理医生或吃药”，直到受害者彻底丧失对自身感官和记忆的信任。 - **沦为精神附庸**：未能离开这段关系的受害者，最终会在精神上彻底臣服，完全依赖自恋者来替自己“定义现实”，沦为毫无自我的受奴役状态。 ### [01:09:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4163s) 恶毒的反转话术：DARVO 战术解析 为了系统性瓦解受害者的反抗，自恋者与施虐者广泛使用一种名为“DARVO”的心理操控战术。拉玛尼医生介绍，这一概念由珍妮弗·弗雷德博士（Dr. Jennifer Freyd）提出，是四种行为的首字母缩写：否认（Deny）、攻击（Attack）、反转受害者与加害者身份（Reverse Victim and Offender）。 自恋者运用 DARVO 的手段极其娴熟且冷酷。拉玛尼医生举例说明：如果伴侣质问晚归的自恋者：“你昨晚答应九点回家，结果凌晨一点才回来。”自恋者会立刻展开三步反击： 1. **否认（Deny）**：“根本没有这回事！我是没九点回，但我绝对没有一点才进门。” 2. **攻击（Attack）**：“你有毛病吧？你整天没事干就盯着门禁系统查我几点进门吗？” 3. **反转受害者与施害者（Reverse Victim and Offender）**：“我真不敢相信我的生活过成这样！我每天拼死拼活工作赚钱，让你住这么豪华的大房子，供你待在家里，现在反倒我成了坏人？你知不知道你给我带来了多大的精神折磨！” 自恋者明明心知肚明自己就是一点才回家，却能通过这套话术瞬间终结对话、逃避责任，并让真正的受害者反过来心生愧疚。拉玛尼医生愤怒地指出，这种行为从根本上剥夺了另一个人的现实感知能力，是“绝对的心理虐待”（Absolute abuse）。 ### [01:11:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4285s) 识破煤气灯效应：唯一的应对法则是停止纠缠 面对普遍存在于家庭、职场和亲密关系中的煤气灯操控，拉玛尼医生给出了至关重要的自救原则：一旦看清真相，就必须彻底停止与操纵者互动。当对方公然否定事实、声称“我从来没说过”时，受害者首先必须在内心明确确认事实——在心中默念“那不是真的，事实绝非如此”，但切记**绝对不要当面与他们争辩**。 因为煤气灯效应的核心就是将人拖入其扭曲现实的泥潭。试图向施虐者摆事实、讲道理，无异于踩进流沙或是被拖入深水中溺亡；每一次辩解都会给对方提供进一步反咬、攻击和反转角色的炮弹。认清对方具备实施煤气灯操控的能力与恶毒倾向后，唯一有效的防线就是立刻在自己这一端关闭对话（Shut it down），决绝地退出互动，不再卷入其预设的心理陷阱中。 ### [01:12:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4333s) 应对煤气灯效应：坚守现实，拒绝卷入争辩 面对煤气灯操纵（Gaslighting），最明智的回应方式不是拿出手机翻找聊天记录，也不是甩出往来邮件去拼命证明自己没有错，而是简短且平淡地说一句：“看来我们对此有不同的体验（We're having a different experience then）”，随后果断终止对话。拉玛尼博士（Dr Ramani Durvasula）郑重警告，千万不要顺着对方的圈套滑下去，因为向自恋者摆事实讲道理完全是徒劳的，深陷其中只会让自己越陷越深。 拉玛尼博士分享了自己不久前在职场中的一次亲身经历。当时她也遭到了煤气灯操纵，那一刻她脑海中闪过的念头是：“不会吧，怎么会轮到我？我对别的事情可能了解不多，但自恋操纵可是我的专长啊。”但事实就是这样发生了。她解释道，有时在复杂的企业体制中，即使是一些本质善良的普通员工，为了替整个组织的自恋机制背书，也会在无意间对他人进行煤气灯操控。即便作为深谙所有操纵套路的顶级心理专家，当个人对现实的感知被全盘否定和扭曲时，拉玛尼博士坦言依然感到极度沮丧与被贬低（Dehumanizing）。 幸运的是，那起事件中的对方本身并不是自恋型人格，因此在拉玛尼博士严肃指出“这种做法并不妥当，我知道你的人品远不止于此”之后，双方达成了一致并解决了问题。然而，她指出如果对方是一个真正的自恋者，唯一的对策就是“脱身”（Disengage）——将此事在心里归档，看清对方的本质与底线，不再向其投入任何深层期待与情绪。 - 应对煤气灯操纵的黄金句式：“我们对此有着不同的体验”，然后闭口不言。 - 严禁行为：不要出示聊天记录、邮件或通话记录试图向自恋者自证清白。 - 现实体验被完全否认会带来极其严重的被贬低感和去人性化感受，即使心理学家也无法免疫。 --- ### [01:13:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4427s) 家庭暴力与自恋的绝对关联：控制欲与同理心的缺失 当斯蒂芬（Steven Bartlett）问及自恋者是否普遍具有控制欲、并常伴有情感甚至肢体上的家庭暴力时，拉玛尼博士肯定了这种关联，并特别称赞了英国在家庭暴力心理立法方面的先锋地位。她指出，英国在国际上率先确立了将“高压控制”（Coercive Control）入刑的公共政策，对家暴中的心理操控有着极具前瞻性的认知。 拉玛尼博士坚定地陈述了自己百分之百坚持的专业立场：世界上所有实施家庭暴力的人，毫无例外全都是自恋者。她剖析道，一个人怎么可能在亲口对另一半说了“我爱你，我会照顾你，我们在一起生活”之后，转头就对伴侣施以情感虐待、肢体暴力甚至性侵犯？这种行为折射出的是彻底为零的同理心（Zero empathy）、极致的特权意识（Tremendous entitlement）以及不可理喻的傲慢自大，这正是自恋人格的核心病理。施暴者不仅极度缺乏自我反思能力，也完全无视他人的感受与人格。 正是由于这种病理本质，市面上大量的家庭暴力干预矫正项目几乎全部收效甚微——因为一个人的自恋人格结构是根本无法被外力重构或消除的。拉玛尼博士提到，虽然早在20世纪70年代该领域曾有人担心“如果将家暴归因于自恋，是否会分散公众对其暴力行为本身的追责”，但她强调这两者不可分割：恶劣行径绝不能被姑息，自恋人格也绝不能成为施暴的借口。施暴者的任何悲惨背景或创伤借口都不值一提，因为这种人格特质决定了伤害必然会再次上演。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自恋型家暴行为的心理机制 accDescr: 展示自恋核心特质如何驱动家庭暴力行为并导致矫正项目失效的闭环机制 subgraph Core["自恋人格核心特质"] A["零同理心 / 极度自私"] B["膨胀的特权感与傲慢"] C["极度匮乏的自我反思"] end subgraph Act["施暴与控制循环"] D["口头承诺：我爱你、会照顾你"] E["虐待升级：情感折磨 / 躯体暴力 / 性侵"] end subgraph Result["现实后果与干预困境"] F["行为不可原谅且必将循环重演"] G["现有家暴矫正项目普遍彻底失效"] end Core --> D D --> E E --> F F --> G ``` --- ### [01:15:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4555s) 遭遇自恋型上司：留痕取证与职场自保 在职场环境中，如果直属经理、主管或公司首席执行官（CEO）是自恋者，员工在日常工作中会产生非常直观的感受：你觉得自己完全不被看见、不被认可；工作环境喜怒无常、不可预测；规章制度毫无公平与公正可言；更致命的是，你会感到极度缺乏“心理安全感”（Psychologically unsafe）。在这样的环境下，谁能获得晋升、谁能揽得功劳全无逻辑章法，公司内部往往充斥着恶意的流言蜚语和小团伙八卦。 如果怀疑上司是自恋者，拉玛尼博士给出的核心生存法则是“全面取证”（Start documenting the hell out of it）。因为人力资源部门（HR）绝不会受理诸如“我认为我经理是个自恋狂”这种主观诉求，他们只看冷冰冰的事实与证据。员工必须系统性地保存往来邮件、即时通讯截图、语音留言、详细的会议纪要，并尽可能避免与自恋型上司进行任何一对一的私下闭门会议。 对于下一步的去留选择，策略取决于企业的规模与环境： - **大中型企业转岗**：如果员工仍然认可公司的前景与使命，但无法忍受该上司，最好的出路是在组织内部申请横向调动，换到其他管理者的团队下工作，以保全自己的职业积累。 - **另寻出路**：在缺乏转岗空间的中小型公司，员工几乎不可能在耐力战中“熬死”自恋型管理者，最终往往只能选择辞职跳槽。 - **同事抱团互助**：研究表明，当核心管理层表现出严重的自恋特征时，基层团队成员之间往往会激发出极其紧密、强大的协作关系。这种“同仇敌忾”的结盟机制能让员工在有毒的职场环境中抱团取暖，获得难得的情感慰藉与心理支撑。 --- ### [01:18:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4689s) 无法离开时的关键法则：接纳现实与化解哀伤 斯蒂芬向拉玛尼博士追问：对于那些发现自己的伴侣、父母或老板完美契合所有自恋特征的人，心理学家的最终建议是“必须离开”吗？拉玛尼博士斩钉截铁地回答：“不。”她极其反对给受害者施加“必须马上脱离关系”的道德压力，因为在现实世界中，由于错综复杂的牵绊，很多人根本无法立刻抽身离开。如果把“逃离”描绘成唯一的救赎之路，只会让那些走不了的人陷入绝望的自责与无助之中。 无法离开的理由因人而异且都值得被尊重：可能对方是原生家庭的骨肉至亲，你无法彻底决裂；可能是一段维系多年且有未成年子女的婚姻，受到财务分割、抚养权或文化背景的重重制约；也可能是你赖以谋生的长期工作，目前缺乏立刻离职的经济底气。拉玛尼博士强调，只要关系中不存在直接的身体危险或致命威胁，受害者的任何留守决定都是合情合理的，无需承受外界“你怎么还不走”的指责。 留在这段关系里注定是一条更为艰难的道路，因为你依然每天暴露在对方操纵、贬低、刻薄以及破坏稳定感的心力消耗中。要想在这种处境下活下去，唯一且首要的生存法则就是“极度接纳”（Radical Acceptance）： 1. **打破“未来会变好”的幻想**：必须彻底清醒地认识到，自恋者绝对不会改变。对方不会因为升职加薪而变温和，不会因为孩子长大而心生体恤，年迈的母亲也不会随着岁月流逝而变得仁慈。眼下的糟糕现状就是未来的全部常态。 2. **制定清醒的应对预案**：所有的相处策略必须建立在“对方绝不改变”的冷酷事实之上，设立极度现实的心理预期。 3. **经历幻灭带来的哀伤**：当人们第一次真正做到极度接纳时，往往会经历巨大的悲伤（A tremendous amount of grief）。因为过去支撑他们咬牙坚持的正是那一丝虚妄的“希望”，而接纳现实意味着必须亲手埋葬“有朝一日终会变好”的憧憬。 4. **终结“不可置信”的震惊内耗**：许多受害者在长达数年乃至数十年的纠缠中，最耗费心力的一句话就是“我真不敢相信他/她竟然能干出这种事！”极度接纳能彻底终结这种内耗，让你转变为波澜不惊的认知：“我当然相信他能干出这种事，这完全在预料之中，准得就像定时闹钟一样。”放下对理想关系的执念，正是走向心理免受二次伤害的转折点。 ### [01:20:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4844s) 彻底接纳与生存策略：在有毒关系中构建外界支持 在认清伴侣或亲人的自恋本质后，哀悼幻灭感需要漫长的时间。Dr. Ramani 指出，一旦越过那个转折点并实现“彻底接纳”（Radical Acceptance），当事人就必须掌握具体的生存工具。其中最核心的支柱是建立健康的外部社交联结——去结识那些具备同理心、能同频共振、懂得体恤且尊重他人的人。这些支持系统可以来自于现有的知心朋友、心理咨询、互助小组，或是职场上的良师益友。若选择留在这段关系中，就必须拥有不被煤气灯操纵（Gaslighting）的安全空间，在这些空间里重新体会到被看见、被重视与被呵护的价值。 很多被困在婚姻中的人坦言，虽然在后半生像“例行公事般应付差事”（phoning it in）并不好受，但当他们不再对自恋者的恶劣行径感到惊讶时，痛苦便减轻了许多。有人围绕这段千疮百孔的婚姻在外界建立起丰盈的生活，将配偶的挑衅仅仅视为“房间角落里的某种恼人噪音”。而在家庭关系中，界限设定往往更加戏剧化：有人为了深爱的姐妹而忍受自恋型父母，维系家庭聚会，却彻底停止与母亲进行实质性对话；还有一位当事人去探望生活无法自理却无人理睬的自恋型父亲时，会严格设置一个 90 分钟的倒计时闹钟。闹钟一响，她便立即起身告辞，即便父亲每次都暴跳如雷，她也坦然接受——“反正在 90 分钟时被骂，总比被耗上 3 个小时再被骂要好得多”。Dr. Ramani 警告，若选择留下却做不到彻底接纳，残存的虚妄期待终将把人彻底摧毁。 - **生存第一法则**：寻找具备同理心、能给予健康反馈的外部社交网络，打破孤立与煤气灯环境。 - **边界设定技巧**：严格限制接触时长（如 90 分钟探视闹钟），降低心理预期，不寄希望于对方的情绪转变。 - **情感切割**：在婚姻之外构建丰盈的生活支撑，将自恋者的言行降级为背景杂音。 --- ### [01:22:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4960s) 与自恋者相处能否获得幸福？以及床笫之间的“表演型”特质 当 Steven 问及“身处与自恋者的关系中是否还能感到幸福”时，Dr. Ramani 给出了犀利的回答：“你可以感到幸福，但绝不可能对这段关系感到幸福。”她认为你只能清醒地凝视它的巨大局限。许多维持关系的人往往采用极端的“功能切割法”，仅依靠一两个微小的重叠点维持和平：有人坦承“对方擅长我喜欢的某种特定性技巧，其余部分一塌糊涂，但既然无法抽身，那就只享受这一点”；有人将对方仅仅当作“一起看历史时代剧（Period Dramas）的搭档”；有人依靠共同收集古董墨水笔维持表面热络；还有人仅仅把对方当成“极佳的拼字游戏（Scrabble）对手”。这种妥协是否能算作幸福，更多已属于人生哲学的范畴。 谈及自恋者的性行为表现，Dr. Ramani 结合她在《今日美国》（USA Today）受访的分析指出，自恋者在床上是极其“表演型”（Performative）的情人。他们极度渴望掌声与认可，为了被夸赞一句“天哪，你是我遇到过最棒的情人”，他们甚至会非常投入地让伴侣达到高潮，如同一个做了好事渴望得到棒棒糖奖励的六岁小孩。他们往往偏爱镜面性爱，沉迷于审视自己或伴侣的躯体。然而，其阴暗面同样明显：部分自恋者极其自私，其性行为充斥着夸张而虚假的色情片质感（porny）；更危险的是，许多受害者最终沦为“顺应性妥协”，仅仅为了让家庭列车不脱轨、为了息事宁人而被迫发生性关系，甚至滑向带有强迫性质（Coercive）的虐待边缘。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自恋者的床笫行为光谱 accDescr: 展示自恋者在性行为中从表演型渴望认可到自私乃至强迫的心理光谱。 subgraph Spectrum["自恋型性行为的光谱表现"] direction TB A["表演型讨好<br/>（渴望掌声与赞美，像要糖吃的孩子）"] --> B["自恋与自私<br/>（镜面性爱、充斥浮夸的色情片质感）"] B --> C["工具化与强迫<br/>（伴侣为求相安无事被迫顺从，甚至演变为隐性强迫）"] end ``` --- ### [01:24:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5085s) 自恋者的“氪石”：不纠缠的冷漠与真实自我的力量 就像超人有其致命弱点“氪石”（Kryptonite）一样，自恋者同样存在难以招架的克星。Dr. Ramani 强调，普通人能使出的最强氪石就是**“彻底停止纠缠”**（Not engaging）。自恋者天生是泥潭摔跤的高手，他们会不断挑衅、试探边界，极度渴望将对方拽入争吵之中以汲取情绪供给。如果你坚决拒绝下场、不给予他们战斗的满足感，也不再对其言行表现出惊叹或吹捧，这便击中了他们的要害。此外，遇到权力地位远高于他们、且具备高同理心的领袖（例如一位识破其所有伎俩的共情型 CEO），自恋者也会因无法施展逢迎与操控手段而感到手足无措、大为受挫。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 自恋者的两大氪石机制 accDescr: 描绘自恋者在面对不纠缠以及坚定真实自我时的应对与瓦解机制。 subgraph Kryptonite["自恋者的克星机制"] direction TB K1["策略一：绝对不纠缠<br/>拒绝被挑衅 / 拒绝情绪供给"] K2["策略二：坚固的真实自我<br/>不迎合、不自贬、不受操纵"] end subgraph NarcissistReaction["自恋者的心理瓦解"] direction TB R1["失去战斗与控制快感"] R2["挑衅升级无果后丧失兴趣"] R3["最终感到无趣并主动撤离"] end K1 --> R1 K2 --> R2 R1 & R2 --> R3 ``` 针对“真实性”（Authenticity）对自恋者的杀伤力，Dr. Ramani 进一步阐述：自恋者对拥有真实自我的人感到深受威胁。在充满自恋虐待的关系中，展现真实的自我往往带有某种“危险”意味，因为自恋者会本能地对其冷嘲热讽、嗤之以鼻，并试图彻底拆解你的自我认同。许多年轻人在遭遇自恋者时难以自保，正是因为坚实的自我本就需要岁月沉淀；但倘若你能以不可动摇的姿态稳稳立足于自己的真实内核中，既不迎合也不受其操纵，自恋者在短期的报复性反弹之后，便会因为发现你是一个“无法下口的无趣目标”而逐渐丧失兴趣，最终转身离开。 - **最高防御策略**：绝不跳入对方预设的冲突陷阱，彻底切断对方借争吵获取的自恋供给。 - **上位者压制**：具备深度同理心、洞察人性的高层掌权者，能让善于谄媚与欺诈的自恋者无计可施。 - **做真实的自己**：拥有稳固自我认同的人会令自恋者感到挫败，促使其自讨没趣地主动撤退。 --- ### [01:27:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5248s) 名人与政客中的自恋比例：为什么我们总给自恋者投票？ 对谈随后转向了公众人物中的自恋现象。Steven 问及是否所有名人都具有自恋人格，Dr. Ramani 澄清并非全部，但比例高得惊人，因为“追逐成名本身就是一种由自恋驱动的欲望”。普通人的愿望往往是穿着便服去杂货店而不被人认出，保留平静的生活；而在演艺与聚光灯行业中，自恋者的比例几乎可以达到 **40% 到 50%**，堪称“抛硬币的概率”。 而在世界各国的政治领袖群体中，自恋者的比例更可能高达 **60% 到 70%**。Dr. Ramani 叹道，能够自信宣称“唯有我能治理这个国家”并投身其中的人，本身就具备极高的自负倾向。尽管历史上曾出现过优秀的领导人，但当今政治舞台早已蜕变成充斥着表演性、浮夸、残忍、贬低他人与尔虞我诈的竞技场，一个非自恋型的人格在这样的体制博弈中几乎毫无胜算。 至于普通选民为何屡屡将选票投给自恋型政客，Dr. Ramani 直言，大众依然极易向表面的人格魅力“讨好屈服”（fawn）。人们往往产生一种认知偏差，盲目相信那些行事张扬、自诩不可一世的人物身上，真的具备足以力挽狂澜的非凡实力。 - **名人自恋比例**：估计约 40%–50%，聚光灯与成名欲望是典型的自恋驱动目标。 - **政客自恋比例**：估计高达 60%–70%，表演化、极化与操控性的现代政治生态为自恋者提供了温床。 - **选民心理陷阱**：大众容易将虚张声势的高傲误认为真正的能力，臣服于所谓的领袖魅力。 ### [01:28:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5334s) 魔术秀隐喻：为什么大众容易被自恋型领导者迷惑 大众往往会为“马戏团揽客叫卖者”（circus barker）式的说故事高手买单，甚至在选举中将选票投给他们。Ramani 博士用洛杉矶著名的“魔术城堡”（Magic Castle）举例：去魔术秀的人心知肚明世上没有真正的魔法，一切都是手法（sleight of hand）。但绝大多数观众进场是想沉浸于奇迹的幻觉，而不是探究戏法背后的机关；一旦机关被拆穿，魔术就只剩下了单纯的手部技巧，魅力荡然无存。自恋者之所以很少被当场戳穿，原因正是在于此——大多数人内心渴望相信“奇迹”，而自恋者散发着一种极具迷惑性的笃定感。 这种笃定本质上是一种“错位的信念”（misplaced conviction），完全脱离事实与操守，仅仅因为这符合自恋者自身的利益，或者他们盲目相信自己绝对正确。多数普通人往往充满自我怀疑与反思，当面对一个展现出百分之百坚定信念的人时，常会产生“他如此自信，必定深谙内情；领袖就该有这般魄力”的错觉。相反，那些审慎周全、主张“兼听则明、权衡各方利益”的成熟领导者，反而极易被大众误判为软弱迟疑，因而在选举中处于劣势。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自恋型领导者的心理诱导与公众反应模型 accDescr: 对比自恋型领袖与审慎型领袖在大众心理投射下的不同反馈 subgraph NarcissistLeader["自恋型领导者"] A["虚妄但100%坚定的信念"] --> B["表现为强大的魅力与决断力"] end subgraph DeliberateLeader["审慎型领导者"] C["权衡利弊、承认不确定性"] --> D["被大众误解为软弱或优柔寡断"] end subgraph PublicMindset["大众心理（魔术秀效应）"] E["自我怀疑，渴望确定感与奇迹"] F["倾向追随自信者，回避枯燥真相"] end B --> F D -.->|缺乏情绪煽动性| F E --> F ``` ### [01:30:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5431s) 国际博弈与外交：绝不能用自恋者去对抗自恋者 针对 Steven 提出的假设——面对普京（Putin）或金正恩（Kim Jong-un）这类敌对的自恋型国家领袖，是否应当同样推选自恋型领导人去抗衡？Ramani 博士给出了极其明确的否定回答。两名自恋者对决，本质上演变成两个巨大自我的角力（ego fight），双方都不愿展现半点退让或示弱。自恋者会彻底遗忘人民的福祉，极易将整个国家拖入经济崩溃、物理对抗甚至全面战争的灾难性深渊。 过于软弱或过度同理心的领导人同样会陷入被自恋型或心理病态型对手无情碾压的境地。国际政局真正需要的是兼具智慧、审慎、心系民众福祉，同时深刻洞悉施害者心理机制的中道领导者。Ramani 博士特别指出，倘若自己能够影响世界规则，最急需普及自恋心理学培训的领域当属**外交事务**。各国的外交官、国务卿及联合国代表往往在与不可理喻的自恋型独裁者谈判时犯下致命错误： - 与自恋型国家领导人谈判的难度，和试图与自恋型配偶讲道理毫无二致——其本质上是完全不可协商的。 - 国际社会由于迟迟不愿撕开这些自恋政客的伪装，无休止地拖延与妥协，最终导致无数无辜平民承受巨大的实质性伤害。 ### [01:32:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5552s) 自恋虐待后的康复与重建：从绝望走向觉醒 在被问及整场对话最不可遗漏的核心要点时，Ramani 博士郑重强调：绝对不要让观众带着“一切都陷入绝境”（doom and gloom）的沮丧心态离开。经历过自恋关系绝非注定一辈子丧失真实的自我： - **祛魅与定性赋权**：一旦受害者系统地理解了自恋动态机制，被赋予正当权利去将施虐行为明确定义为“虐待”，他们就能逐步走出自责，不再因为自己拥有正当需求、渴望、感受与希望而感到羞耻。 - **走出创伤阴影**：康复不仅完全可行，而且在现实中屡见不鲜。从原生家庭的自恋虐待、长年婚姻与亲密关系中的精神折磨，到职场当中的自恋剥削，大量幸存者在觉醒后展现出惊人的韧性，重构出更智慧、坚强且富有创造力的真实自我。 - 尽管疗愈是一项需要付出巨大心力、伴随痛苦反复的长途跋涉，但康复的希望真实存在。 ### [01:33:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5623s) 中场赞助插播：LinkedIn Jobs Steven 插入了一段播客赞助介绍，提及近期 Flight Group 正在大规模招聘全球顶级人才，其首选招聘平台一直是 LinkedIn Jobs。 - **庞大人才库**：LinkedIn 拥有超过 10 亿专业人士与优质候选人网络，能够触达常规求职平台无法覆盖的人群。 - **高匹配效率**：平台拥有极简直观的筛选工具；数据显示，86% 的小型企业在发布招聘信息后 24 小时内即可获得符合条件的候选人。 ### [01:34:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5680s) 终极传统提问：博士人生中最黑暗的一天与漫长创伤 按照节目传统，上一位嘉宾留下了一道未知对象的提问：“你人生中最黑暗的一天是什么？你又是如何重新点亮光芒的？”（"Which was your darkest day and how did you turn the lights on?"）Ramani 博士在沉吟后首次倾诉了深藏多年的大学时代创伤。 年轻求学期间（十几岁至二十出头），她曾被一名相识不深的熟人长期跟踪骚扰并遭受了性侵犯。那是一个连自恋概念与创伤心理学都尚未普及的时代，没有智能手机，通信还依赖老式拨号电话。行凶者呈现出典型的**脆弱型自恋**（vulnerable narcissist）特征，其危险与破坏力丝毫不亚于恶性自恋（malignant narcissist）。施害者对其施加了极其严密的跟踪、频繁偷窃其个人物品，并进行残酷的煤气灯操纵（gaslighting），将她的心理防线彻底瓦解。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: Ramani 博士创伤经历与职业路径转化 accDescr: 展示早年创伤经历如何促使 Ramani 博士投身自恋与创伤研究 subgraph TraumaExperience["早年创伤体验"] A["大学时期遭受性侵与跟踪"] --> B["行凶者为脆弱型自恋者"] B --> C["系统性怀疑与受害者责备"] end subgraph CareerImpact["终身职业转化"] C --> D["深切理解创伤与无助感"] D --> E["致力于为被系统怀疑者发声"] E --> F["深耕自恋型虐待与心理疗愈研究"] end ``` - **体制的冷漠与对受害者的指责**：在当年的校园环境中，受害者根本无处寻求帮助；即便是今天，大学校园内报告性侵的女性遭遇怀疑和责难的比例依然高得惊人。 - **职业使命的催生**：正是这种孤立无援、被整个体制怀疑与孤立的绝望，促使她终其一生投身于创伤心理学，立志为那些在体制中失声、被怀疑的受害者提供支持。 - **公众人物与创伤触发**：即便经过多年心理治疗与自我重建，创伤的印记依然深刻。作为一名有色人种女性学者兼公众人物，近年来她在网络空间遭受恶意威胁与极端言论攻击时，早期遭遇跟踪和物品被窃的恐怖记忆依然会不可遏制地席卷而来。 ### [01:37:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5864s) 创伤、解离防御与逃离困境 拉玛尼·杜瓦苏拉博士（Dr. Ramani Durvasula）回忆了自己过去遭遇恶意操纵的诡异经历：物品会被悄悄偷走，随后又神不知鬼不觉地被放回原处。这种行为让校警根本不相信她的遭遇，甚至质疑道：“你说你的东西被偷了，但你的背包明明就在那里啊。”对方正是利用这种反复拿走又归还的手段，制造认知错乱并彻底孤立她。当斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及这场折磨是如何收场时，杜瓦苏拉博士坦言自己最终选择了辞职离开大学。 斯蒂芬接着询问，这是否正是促使她投身于自恋型人格研究的契机。杜瓦苏拉博士明确否认了这一点，表示自己当时和大多数遭受创伤的人别无二致。她并没有出于理性目的去直面它，而是下意识地进行了心理区隔（compartmentalization）与情感解离（dissociation）。这种解离并非出于有意识的选择，而是一种深层、自发的保护机制。她感慨道，人的身心在经历创伤时的运作方式非常奇妙，身体和心智总是在竭尽全力保护我们不被痛苦击溃；但遗憾的是，将痛苦强行推开并不能真正解决问题。 - **煤气灯操纵的现实困境**：施害者通过“偷走再放回背包”的隐蔽举动，既让受害者陷入自我怀疑，又让外部机构（如校警）视其为无理取闹或精神过敏。 - **身心的保护与局限**：创伤发生时，解离和心理区隔是保护个体不致精神崩溃的本能机制，但压抑和回避无法消除创伤本身。 --- ### [01:38:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=5931s) 《不是你的错》：觉醒、反思与自我校准 斯蒂芬向杜瓦苏拉博士表达了由衷的敬意，感谢她写出如此深刻且极具价值的著作，将自恋型虐待这一依然未被大众充分理解的议题清晰地公之于众。他强调，杜瓦苏拉博士通过视频、公开内容以及新书《不是你的错》（*It's Not You: How to Identify and Heal from NARCISSISTIC People*），以通俗易懂的方式普及专业知识，而“觉知”（awareness）永远是受害者采取行动改变处境的第一步。数以百万计的人因为接触到她的研究，终于看清了正在摧毁自己身心健康的毒性关系，从而鼓起勇气抽身离开，走向更好的人生。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 应对自恋特征的心理与行为闭环 accDescr: 展示从知识普及唤醒认知，到审视自我行为并建立心理防御的动态过程。 subgraph Awareness ["认知唤醒"] A["阅读与了解自恋行为机制"] --> B["识别毒性关系与煤气灯陷阱"] end subgraph Reflection ["自我反思与校准"] B --> C["审视自身日常盲点与自恋倾向"] C --> D["主动修正行为模式并提升同理心"] end subgraph Fortification ["心理防御强化"] D --> E["构筑健康的心理边界与内在韧性"] E --> F["遭遇自恋者时不再自我怀疑或妥协"] end ``` 斯蒂芬进一步分享了这本书带给自己的震撼冲击。作为一名企业领导者与 CEO，他坦言这本书犹如“点亮了一盏明灯”，不仅让他看清了自恋行为的隐蔽性与破坏力，更迫使他深刻反省自身是否存在某些糟糕的行为模式。他直言，许多人有时都会暴露出某种程度的自恋特质（比如做出混蛋般的行径），而正视这种阴暗面促使他渴望成为一个更好的人。 杜瓦苏拉博士非常赞同这种自我反思的视角。她指出，普通人偶尔流露出自恋行为并不等同于患有病态自恋，但能够觉察并“重新校准”（recalibrate）这些行为至关重要。每个人越是提升自身的心智与善意，内在就越发坚韧；这样一来，即便未来在生活中不可避免地遭遇自恋者，我们也不会丧失自我、轻易向对方妥协，而能在人生的风浪中站稳脚跟。 - **觉知是破局的关键**：知识让受害者摆脱自责，认识到问题源于施虐者的病态人格，而非自己做错了什么。 - **领导者的自省价值**：即便不属于自恋人格，审视自己工作与人际中潜在的自恋倾向，能促成更具同理心的领导风格。 - **内在免疫力构筑**：持续修正自身言行并树立健康边界，是对抗外界自恋毒害的最佳防护屏障。 --- ### [01:41:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=6066s) 结语与睡眠赞助分享 在节目的尾声，斯蒂芬分享了自己过去一年来对睡眠的执着与习惯改变。他将优质睡眠视为生活中不可妥协的重要基石，并介绍了本期播客的赞助品牌 Eight Sleep 智能床垫。他提到人体为了达到深度恢复性睡眠，在夜间需要动态调节到最适宜的微环境温度，而该产品能够智能学习并调节睡眠体温，显著改善精力充沛度，成为彻底改变他生活节奏的科技产品之一。 ## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=0s) 自恋本质上是一个连续的光谱：一端是社交媒体上热衷作秀的“Instagram 救世主”，而另一端则是极具控制欲、极度危险的邪教头目。 — 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士 > [35:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2155s) 自恋是一个我们总能‘倒推’回顾、却极难‘正向’预测的故事。 — 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士 > [38:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2337s) 我们从他们那里得到了很多酷炫的成果，但千万别和他们结婚。 — 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士 > [54:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=3289s) 我常说，这种关系就像是‘千刀万剐般的凌迟’。 — 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士 > [20:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=1228s) 恶性自恋是列车开进‘精神病态车站’之前的最后一站。 — 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士 > [47:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=2859s) 千万别剥夺我的自恋，正因如此我才拥有锐利的锋芒，我才能搞定大单，我才是这里的老大！ — 自知型自恋者典型言论 > [01:12:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4333s) 看来我们对此有不同的体验。 — 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士 > [01:22:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4960s) 你可以感到幸福，但绝不可能对这段关系感到幸福。 — 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士 > [01:18:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo&t=4689s) 我当然相信他能干出这种事，这完全在预料之中，准得就像定时闹钟一样。 — 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士 ## Mentioned 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉 (Dr. Ramani Durvasula), 史蒂芬·巴特利特 (Steven Bartlett), The Diary Of A CEO, It's Not You: How to Identify and Heal from NARCISSISTIC People, Should I Stay or Should I Go: Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist, Don't You Know Who I Am?, Jochen Gebauer, Eddie Brummelman, James F. Masterson, Paul Piff, Dr. Jennifer Freyd, Apple, Amazon, Google, ThirdWeb, Target, LinkedIn Jobs, Eight Sleep, Magic Castle, USA Today, 托马斯·爱迪生 (Thomas Alva Edison), 普京 (Vladimir Putin), 金正恩 (Kim Jong-un) ## Video description Dr Ramani Durvasula is a clinical psychologist, Professor of Psychology at California State University, and the Founder and CEO of LUNA Education, Training & Consulting. She is also the author of books such as ‘Should I Stay or Should I Go: Surviving a Relationship with a Narcissist’. 00:00 Intro 02:44 Why Dedicating Your Life To Studying Narcissism 03:46 The Cost Of Narcissism 06:43 How To Spot A Narcissist 12:33 How To Differentiate An Asshole From A Narcissist 15:25 Can You Cure Narcissism? 16:45 What Gender Tends To Be More Narcissistic 18:30 The Types Of Narcissism 25:13 How Many People Are Narcissists? 27:27 Is Social Media Fuelling More Narcissists 32:45 Where Does Narcissism Come From Genetics Environment 36:42 Narcissism Lives In A Spectrum 37:44 Are Narcissists More Successful 40:48 The Empathic CEOs Are Rare 43:40 Does Money Make You More Narcissistic? 47:39 How Do You Know If You Are A Narcissist 50:55 What People Get Attracted To Narcissist? 54:17 How To Know If My Partner Is A Narcissist 56:08 The Three Rs: How To Know If You're In A Negative Relationship 01:00:04 Pathological Manipulation 01:01:32 What's Projection? 01:04:56 Can They Take Feedback 01:06:31 Gaslighting, What Is It? 01:11:25 How To Deal With Being Gaslit 01:13:46 Do Narcissists Engage In Domestic Behaviour 01:15:54 What Should I Do If My Boss Is A Narcissist 01:18:08 Can You Get Out From A Narcissistic Person 01:22:40 Can You Be Happy In A Relationship With A Narcissist 01:24:45 What Is The Weak Point Of A Narcissist 01:26:21 Why Don't They Like Authentic People 01:27:28 Famous Narcissists 01:32:31 You Can Come Back From Narcissistic Abuse 01:34:40 Hardest Day Of Your Life You can order Dr Ramani’s most recent book, ‘It's Not You: How to Identify and Heal from NARCISSISTIC People’, here: https://amzn.to/49QrwaB Follow Dr Ramani Twitter - https://bit.ly/3wF91ra Instagram - https://bit.ly/48A634K Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGq-a57w-aPwyi3pW7XLiHw/join Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Sponsors: Linkedin Ads: https://www.linkedin.com/doac24 Eightsleep: https://www.eightsleep.com/uk/steven/ CODE: STEVEN (save $150 on the Pod Cover) This episode of The Diary Of A CEO was filmed at Gold Tree Studios, located in the heart of the Sunset Strip, West Hollywood, California [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=hTkKXDvSJvo)

[0:00] 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士: 自恋本质上是一个连续的光谱：一端是社交媒体上热衷作秀的“Instagram 救世主”，而另一端则是极具控制欲、极度危险的邪教头目。 [35:55] 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士: 自恋是一个我们总能‘倒推’回顾、却极难‘正向’预测的故事。 [38:57] 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士: 我们从他们那里得到了很多酷炫的成果，但千万别和他们结婚。 [54:49] 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士: 我常说，这种关系就像是‘千刀万剐般的凌迟’。 [20:28] 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士: 恶性自恋是列车开进‘精神病态车站’之前的最后一站。 [47:39] 自知型自恋者典型言论: 千万别剥夺我的自恋，正因如此我才拥有锐利的锋芒，我才能搞定大单，我才是这里的老大！ [72:13] 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士: 看来我们对此有不同的体验。 [82:40] 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士: 你可以感到幸福，但绝不可能对这段关系感到幸福。 [78:09] 拉马尼·杜尔瓦苏拉博士: 我当然相信他能干出这种事，这完全在预料之中，准得就像定时闹钟一样。

[2:44] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: There's nothing more than me wanting to return people back to their authentic selves. [6:43] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Behind closed doors, they psychologically eviscerate the people they're with. [12:33] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: That is not assholery. That's narcissism. [18:30] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: the last stop on the train before you hit psychopathy station. [37:44] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Narcissism and capitalism go together really well because it's a competitive system that rewards the person who does the most and we don't look at process, we look at outcome. [61:32] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Who you texting, Steven?... Show me your phone! [66:31] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: That never happened. You're making that up. [66:31] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: You are the most petty human being I've ever met... I don't know that I want to even be in a relationship like this. [71:25] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: We're having a different experience then [78:08] Dr. Ramani Durvasula: Once you radically accept, you're not as surprised by their behavior... Can we just stop that part and say, of course you believe they did it. In fact, we could have set a clock by the idea that they would have done it. [94:40] Steven Bartlett: Which was your darkest day, and how did you turn the lights on?

[0:00] We believe one in six people are [0:02] narcissistic and exposure can become a [0:05] life or death situation. But the key [0:07] step to identify narcissism is Dr. [0:10] Ramani Durvasula [0:12] licensed clinical psychologist [0:14] the world's leading expert on [0:16] narcissism. [0:17] All narcissism is on the spectrum. At [0:20] the lowest ends it's Instagram saviors. [0:22] But severe end of the spectrum you're [0:23] talking about a cult leader. They have [0:25] low empathy. They will dominate people. [0:27] They have to get the last word. They get [0:29] angry very quickly and that's just the [0:31] top of the iceberg. [0:33] What about the impacts of narcissism on [0:35] relationships? [0:36] Narcissistic people, they can go out in [0:38] the world and they're able to be [0:40] charming and charismatic. And [0:41] narcissistic relationships start strong. [0:44] They want to get you quick and then it [0:45] becomes dismissiveness, manipulation, [0:48] gaslighting. The world thinks this [0:50] person's fantastic. A lot of people say, [0:53] "Aren't you lucky that you're married to [0:55] that guy?" And behind closed doors they [0:57] psychologically destroy you. Narcissism [0:59] in work. How do I know if my boss is a [1:02] narcissist? You're going to feel it in [1:04] the sense of you don't feel seen, you [1:05] don't feel valued, you feel like the [1:07] workplace is unpredictable, you might [1:09] even feel that it's psychologically [1:11] unsafe. What about world leaders? If our [1:14] adversary in another country is a [1:15] narcissist, would we rather our leader [1:17] be a narcissist as well? That's a [1:19] fantastic question and I think So, the [1:22] big question. How do you know if you are [1:25] a narcissist? And can you cure [1:28] narcissism? So, here's where we get into [1:30] some interesting muddy waters. [1:34] It's absolutely crazy to me that so many [1:36] of you have decided to watch our show um [1:38] and so many of you have decided to [1:39] subscribe to our show. We now have 5 [1:41] million subscribers on YouTube which is [1:43] a number that I just can't comprehend [1:45] and it's a dream that I absolutely never [1:47] could have had. We started The Diary of [1:49] a CEO just over 3 years ago now and in [1:51] my wildest expectations we might have [1:53] had 100,000 subscribers by now. So, you [1:56] can imagine how shocked I am [1:58] that so many of you have chosen to tune [2:00] into these conversations every week um [2:03] and spend some time with us. So, thank [2:05] you. And I made a deal with you. I made [2:06] a deal that if you subscribe to the [2:08] show, that we would continue to raise [2:10] the bar. And in 2024, [2:13] we're going to raise the bar like never [2:14] before. I've been working for the last 9 [2:16] months on a surprise for all of you that [2:19] have subscribed to the show, and I'm [2:20] very excited to deliver that for you. [2:23] The production's going to change. We're [2:24] going to go even further with our [2:25] guests, and we're going to tell even [2:27] more global stories. So, as always, if [2:30] you appreciate what we're doing here, [2:31] the simple free favor I'll ask from you [2:34] is to hit the subscribe button. Let's [2:36] get on with the episode. [2:44] Dr. Ramani. Mhm. [2:46] You've committed so much of your life [2:48] and your energy to the subject of [2:49] narcissism. [2:52] Why does it matter? Oh, it matters so [2:54] much because exposure to people who have [2:57] narcissistic personalities [3:00] shapes how people's identity develops, [3:02] shapes how their personality develops. [3:05] Or if the first time you encounter a [3:06] narcissistic person is in adulthood, it [3:09] can actually sort of hijack that sense [3:11] of identity. It can really steal a [3:14] person away from themselves. [3:16] And we I think it's so important because [3:19] we haven't given ourselves permission, I [3:22] think as a culture, as a field of mental [3:23] health, to identify this as a problem [3:27] and allow people to have better [3:29] responses. In a way, it's almost viewed [3:31] as sort of not being very nice to say [3:34] that narcissistic people are not very [3:36] nice. It's a strange paradox in the [3:39] world of mental health. That's why I do [3:40] it, because nothing more than me wanting [3:43] to return people back to their authentic [3:45] selves. You must have seen the cost of [3:48] narcissism. [3:49] Can you give me some examples of the [3:52] cost that a narcissist has had on [3:54] someone's life that you've seen. Mhm. [3:55] Oh. [3:56] Where do I begin? I'll tell you cost is [3:59] a person who so doesn't believe in [4:01] themselves that they may give up on [4:03] their path of education and never pursue [4:06] an interest. So, we never got to see the [4:08] work product that that would have [4:10] created. Not to mention that person [4:12] actually getting to unfurl their wings [4:14] and fully be who they wanted to be as a [4:17] creative or as a professional. [4:19] It's the person who knew what they [4:22] wanted to be, that they had a very [4:23] strong identity as pick something, [4:26] and they ended up choosing something [4:28] else because they knew the only way they [4:30] could be loved was to be what that [4:32] parent demanded of them, and it was so [4:34] clear to them they wouldn't be loved [4:36] unless they fully gave in to what that [4:39] parent expected of them. It's the person [4:42] who is an absolutely glorious human [4:45] being, lovely, empathetic, and warm, but [4:48] feels so damaged after years of being [4:51] told, "You're not enough. You're [4:52] selfish. You're greedy. You're foolish." [4:55] that they get into relationship after [4:57] relationship that duplicates that theme [5:01] and don't get the real collaborative, [5:03] compassionate love story that they [5:05] deserve because they don't think they [5:08] deserve it. And that's just the tip of [5:10] the iceberg. And your academic [5:12] background, your the experience that [5:14] you're drawing from, what is that [5:16] experience? So, my my experience is in [5:18] in my academic background is I have a [5:19] PhD in clinical psychology, and my [5:22] minor's in something called health [5:23] psychology. And so, I got really [5:25] interested in how various elements of [5:28] mental health and mental illness showed [5:29] up in people who had co-occurring [5:31] medical conditions. So, it's a very [5:33] almost like strange point to enter, but [5:35] what we do know is people personality [5:38] affects how we take care of our health, [5:40] how we might engage in behaviors that [5:41] might put our health at risk. For [5:43] example, narcissism and addiction have a [5:45] really high overlap. So, here's a case [5:47] of now a personality style putting a [5:50] person at health risk due to using [5:53] substances to regulate and then all the [5:54] things that would come of that. But, [5:56] it's tough to measure personality, [5:58] Stephen. It's really hard to measure. [5:59] It's not one of those things It's not [6:01] like a blood test. It's not even like [6:02] measuring depression. Frankly, [6:04] depression is eminently measurable. [6:06] Yeah, there's different variants and [6:08] there's different severity, but we're [6:10] very clear diagnostically and [6:12] phenomenologically what makes [6:14] depression. What qualifies? Personality [6:16] is like the wild west. And so, from a [6:18] research perspective, it's something [6:21] that people would often shy away from [6:23] cuz we couldn't get the constructs [6:24] right. But, I said I welcome the [6:26] challenge because I truly in my heart [6:29] believed if we could understand and [6:31] study personality more, we'd actually be [6:34] understanding all this unmeasurable [6:36] noise in the mental health research cuz [6:38] I thought that's probably where it was. [6:40] And I think more and more of the [6:41] research is supporting that. [6:43] And do you spend time, even today, [6:46] dealing with patients [6:48] who are the victim of a narcissistic [6:51] relationship or the victim of a [6:53] narcissist? Every week. Every week. I [6:55] mean, it's it's probably one of the if [6:57] not the most gratifying part of my week. [7:00] I'm a big believer that if you're a [7:01] mental health practitioner, you practice [7:03] mental health. So, that's a privilege to [7:06] be able to be in that room and to work [7:07] with clients. But, [7:09] it would be so easy when you're dealing [7:11] at a macro level, large populations [7:14] going on YouTube, writing books, to get [7:16] distanced from what is happening to [7:19] individual people's lives. One of the [7:21] tricky bits with research is we study [7:23] populations. We study samples, right? We [7:25] study hundreds of people. [7:26] What happens in the room is something [7:28] very different. And you start to [7:30] recognize A, how badly these [7:32] relationships harm people, their schemas [7:35] of the world, their schemas of [7:36] themselves. And B, how much potential [7:39] for intervention there is with these [7:41] clients through very very simple [7:43] approaches around education about [7:45] narcissism, validation of their [7:47] experience, breaking through self-blame, [7:49] and teaching them to trust themselves. [7:51] So, how many patients do you think [7:53] you've seen that have been victims of [7:55] narcissists? I mean, hundreds. Hundreds, [7:58] really. And I even use the word [7:59] survivor. I hate to call them victims [8:01] cuz I don't even think they're that [8:02] passive. I mean, I think that they just [8:04] weren't No one ever taught anyone this, [8:06] right? I'll give you the example. When [8:08] people are in a relationship with [8:10] somebody who's living with addiction, [8:12] it's very clear what they're dealing [8:13] with, right? You have a person, they're [8:16] using a substance that's altering them, [8:18] that's altering their behavior, that's [8:20] taking them away from who they are. [8:21] Person People in relationships with [8:23] addicts will say, "I'm in two [8:24] relationships. I'm in a relationship [8:26] with a sober person, and I'm in a [8:28] relationship with somebody who's using [8:29] or intoxicated or denying or defending [8:32] their use, right? Two people. And it [8:34] breaks the people in those [8:35] relationships, and we're willing to call [8:36] it that. [8:38] The experience people have in [8:39] narcissistic relationships in a way is [8:40] no different with the added bit though [8:43] that at least with addiction people can [8:44] say, "I see what the behavior is. I see [8:46] what the issue is. Addiction's a [8:48] disease, and we know it's treatable." [8:50] Narcissism, not so much. And on top of [8:53] that, the narcissistic person has this [8:56] very well-developed, very successful [8:59] behavioral repertoire. They can go out [9:01] in the world and they're able to be [9:02] charming and charismatic and confident [9:05] and smart and the center of attention [9:07] and running companies, [9:08] and behind closed doors, [9:10] they psychologically eviscerate the [9:12] people they're with. [9:14] Spouses, partners, family members, close [9:16] friends, maybe people who are below them [9:19] in an organization, people where they [9:20] can kind of get away with it. So, the [9:22] people they're harming, the world thinks [9:24] this person's fantastic. At least the [9:26] person who's in a relationship with an [9:27] addict, people will say, "Okay, I get [9:28] it. They're using. This is hard." But [9:30] for the folks in narcissistic [9:31] relationships, a lot of people say, [9:33] "Aren't you lucky that you're married to [9:36] that guy?" And the person's like, "Oh my [9:38] gosh, are these people out of their [9:39] mind?" Like, so what do they do? They [9:41] blame themselves. [9:45] Okay. [9:46] What is narcissism? Mhm. [9:50] Because [9:51] I've heard the word used so often, but I [9:54] couldn't tell you the definition of it. [9:55] And I feel like I'd butcher the [9:57] definition of what it is. Mhm. So, I'm [10:00] almost curious to ask you, what just [10:02] before I almost contaminate you with a [10:04] with what my definition is, what's your [10:07] working definition? What's your working [10:09] model of what narcissism is? Um [10:11] delusions of grandeur, someone that [10:13] thinks they're like super important and [10:14] that they are better than everybody [10:16] else, arrogance, [10:18] um and they're cruel. Okay. All right, [10:21] so I I would give you probably like a [10:24] C+ B- if you're a student in my class. I [10:26] mean, I I I cut students a lot of slack [10:28] back in the day. So, I'll give you a C+ [10:30] B-. Because you're in the neighborhood, [10:32] right? The grandiosity, [10:35] the arrogance, [10:37] the the meanness, but that to me is even [10:39] more sort of a manifestation of all the [10:41] traits, like the grandiosity, the [10:42] arrogance. They have variable empathy [10:44] and typically have low empathy. They're [10:47] deeply entitled. They truly think [10:49] they're more special than everyone else [10:51] and that the rules should apply to them [10:53] very differently. They have a excessive [10:57] need for admiration and validation. [11:00] They're very superficial. They don't [11:02] really have the capacity for deep [11:04] sustained intimate relationships. [11:07] They're very much referential to the [11:08] world out there out outside of them to [11:10] set goals. They don't have a good [11:11] internal sense of like what matters to [11:13] me, what what do I want to do? They just [11:15] want to do what they do again to get [11:17] that admiration and validation. There's [11:19] a shallowness, a real emotional [11:21] shallowness to narcissism. Those are the [11:23] patterns and traits we sort of see. [11:25] They're very very self-centered, very [11:28] preoccupied with themselves, the good [11:29] parts of themselves, the bad parts of [11:31] themselves. It's very rare for them to [11:33] sort of lift their heads up and [11:34] genuinely notice the experience of [11:36] another person. That's what narcissism [11:38] is. How does it show up? It shows up as [11:41] devaluation, dismissiveness, [11:44] manipulation, gaslighting. [11:47] They get angry very quickly, especially [11:49] when they're frustrated or disappointed, [11:51] and that can show up as overt rage or [11:53] overt anger, yelling, screaming, or even [11:55] violence. That can show up as passive [11:57] aggression, withholding, and [11:59] withdrawing. They are They can be They [12:02] are prone to betrayal. They lie. They [12:04] cheat. They make promises about the [12:06] future they never keep, but they do that [12:08] to keep people around so they won't [12:10] leave them. So, it's It's part of a [12:11] larger sort of a manipulation. They will [12:14] dominate people. They have to get the [12:15] last word. They will shift blame onto [12:18] other people. They will rarely take [12:19] responsibility for their misdeeds, even [12:22] when they're clearly caught in them. And [12:23] if they do, they'll still blame the [12:25] other person. They're very neglectful [12:28] and careless in relationships. That is [12:30] narcissism. [12:33] How can you tell the difference between [12:35] someone having a bad day, an [ __ ] [12:38] and a narcissist? Because some of those [12:39] things there I thought, you know, on a [12:41] bad day I might do that. Yeah. You know, [12:43] um the whole collection together, no. [12:46] But on a bad day when I haven't slept, I [12:48] go, "You know what? I might [12:50] blame someone or whatever else." What's [12:52] the distinction? When a person has a bad [12:54] day, and we all have bad days, and on [12:56] those bad days, we might look like all [12:58] the If the only take someone had of us [13:01] was of that day, ooh, right? But the [13:03] Here's the piece. [13:05] When people are not narcissistic and [13:07] they have bad days, they will [13:10] take accountability. They will make [13:12] amends, and they will change their [13:13] behavior and say, "I'm not doing this [13:15] again. This is This is not okay." Why [13:17] wasn't it okay? Because it was none of [13:19] those people's fault you didn't get [13:20] enough sleep. And whether that means we [13:22] reach deeper to be as kind as we can to [13:25] the people. In some cases, especially if [13:26] it's people we know or we see again. You [13:29] may not know the random person at the [13:30] gym, but if we someone we know or work [13:33] with, we step we step out of ourselves [13:34] to say the way I conducted myself [13:36] yesterday wasn't okay and I'm really [13:38] sorry about that. [13:39] And so that that they're having that [13:41] experience of you taking accountability. [13:44] That's where I know we're not dealing [13:46] with a narcissistic person, we're [13:47] dealing with a bad day. And a bad day is [13:49] just that, a day. It's not every day. [13:52] With a narcissistic person, many days [13:55] I'm not going to say all, but many days [13:57] are characterized by these machinations, [14:00] these manipulations, and these [14:01] invalidations. If the person in a [14:03] relationship with a narcissistic person [14:05] feel like they're constantly on their [14:06] back foot, that they can't be [14:08] themselves, they can't express a need, [14:10] they can't express a want, they can't [14:11] even express a feeling for fear of it [14:13] being shut down. So, there's your So, [14:16] there's your not narcissistic person. [14:19] What about an [ __ ] okay? I do think [14:22] assholery and narcissism are pretty We [14:25] You know, they're they're We use the [14:26] terms interchangeably. [14:28] I think though that here's my here's my [14:30] [ __ ] belief since this is something [14:32] since I think the construct validation [14:34] on [ __ ] is probably still needing to [14:36] be done. [14:37] I think [ __ ] tend to be pretty [14:39] consistently [ __ ] So, whereas [14:41] narcissistic people can really they have [14:44] a much [14:45] wider behavioral repertoire. To be [14:48] absolutely charming This is a person who [14:50] can be absolutely charming on the golf [14:53] course with the CEO of their company. [14:55] Like charming, nice, warm, remembering [14:58] the ages of their kids, and asking about [15:01] the wife, and remembering that their [15:02] grandmother is sick, and all this stuff. [15:05] And get home, [15:06] forget it was his anniversary, scream at [15:09] their partner, "Why is the house like [15:11] look like this? Why do I have to put up [15:13] with this? Make those damn kids shut [15:16] up." [15:17] But they were Mr. "I remember that your [15:19] little girl's birthday is February 6th" [15:21] when they were on the golf course. That [15:23] is not assholery. That's narcissism. Can [15:26] you cure narcissism? [15:28] In your opinion? No, I don't because I [15:30] think that would imply changing a [15:31] personality which I don't think we can [15:33] do. [15:35] Is there any evidence? Have you ever [15:37] seen in your 20 years of working with [15:40] narcissists and their survivors [15:43] any sign of a narcissist becoming a not [15:46] narcissist or a non-narcissist? I've not [15:48] seen them become a not narcissist. I [15:49] we've seen them make micro changes cuz I [15:53] measure and monitor and make my notes in [15:55] therapy. So I'll see, "Interesting. [15:57] They're no longer trying to mess with [15:59] coming in 10 minutes later and asking me [16:01] to keep them for the whole hour. They [16:03] are honoring the therapeutic frame. [16:05] They're paying the bill when they decide [16:07] not to show up at the last minute." I'll [16:09] see tiny tweaks. I'll see people who'll [16:11] come in and say, [16:13] "I screamed at my girlfriend again last [16:15] night and that wasn't cool." So I was [16:17] like, "Whoa. Whoa. That's insight." Like [16:19] I'll run with it. But here's the rub, [16:21] okay? These micro changes, and they are [16:24] micro changes, but they are changes and [16:25] they're in the right direction. [16:28] That much water under the under the [16:29] bridge for the family members and [16:32] partners and other people that have been [16:33] harmed. They're saying, "You want me to [16:35] stay in this relationship cuz this dude [16:36] remembered to say thank you once this [16:38] week?" I think not. To me, the thank you [16:40] is progress. To the people in their [16:42] lives who've been harmed, that one thank [16:44] you is not going to be enough. [16:47] When I was looking at the subject of [16:49] narcissism and I was looking at what [16:51] people are searching around the subject [16:53] matter, [16:54] I could see no searches online for [16:58] is my wife a narcissist? [17:00] But I saw lots of searches for is my [17:02] husband a narcissist? [17:04] Really? Yes. So I wondered, [17:07] is narcissism a gender-specific thing? [17:10] And in what proportion do you typically [17:12] see men and women being narcissists? [17:14] Yeah, no, it's not gender-specific. I'm [17:15] so shocked at that because I've worked [17:17] with so many men [17:19] who have narcissistic wives or or female [17:21] partners. And I've worked with many [17:24] I've met worked with many lesbian [17:25] couples. I've I mean I've worked with [17:28] cases where clearly it was a woman, [17:31] female identified person, who was [17:32] narcissistic. It is definitely not [17:34] limited to men. So here's what we know. [17:37] Grandiose narcissism, much more common [17:40] in men. [17:41] Malignant narcissism, much more common [17:44] in men. [17:45] But there's a form of narcissism [17:48] called vulnerable narcissism. [17:51] Vulnerable narcissism isn't so much of [17:53] the showy, charismatic, charming, look [17:55] at me, arrogant, [17:57] salesy, attention-seeking narcissist. [18:01] The vulnerable narcissist is more [18:04] socially anxious, [18:06] victimized, sullen, resentful, [18:10] aggrieved. And often we sort of see a [18:11] failure to launch, right? There's sort [18:13] of a I'm angry at the world. How come I [18:15] never got my turn? You know, makes me [18:17] How come she got that? And you know, I I [18:20] was better than him. I should have [18:21] gotten that. There's like [18:22] Victimhood. Yeah, victimhood, okay? [18:24] That's called vulnerable narcissism, [18:26] right? When we look at vulnerable [18:28] narcissism, gender balanced. [18:31] Okay, so these other types of [18:32] narcissism, you named four types there. [18:34] Grandiose narcissism. Right, so that's [18:36] our traditional sort of garden variety [18:38] narcissism, the showy, charismatic, [18:40] pretentious, preening, charming, [18:43] attention-seeking, actually quite often [18:46] quite successful narcissistic person. [18:48] Unlike the vulnerable narcissist who are [18:50] failure to launch, the grandiose [18:52] narcissistic people often have big big [18:54] dreams and they'll execute. Not always, [18:56] not always, and they'll often burn [18:57] bridges because they are in fact [18:59] narcissistic, so they'll anger people or [19:01] do shady deals or cut people out and all [19:03] that stuff. But the grandiose [19:05] narcissistic folks are often the larger [19:07] than life folks. Now, if they are angry [19:10] at you, if they feel let down by you, [19:12] they will let you know. They can be very [19:13] vindictive. They are not going to be [19:15] very honest in a relationship. They're [19:17] probably going to betray you. They're [19:18] going to be mean to their partners. We [19:20] can count on that, too. But, to the [19:22] world at large, larger than life. That's [19:24] the typical model. Now, the vulnerable [19:26] narcissism is what I narcissist is what [19:28] I just shared with you. That more of [19:30] vulnerable, victimized Sorry, [19:32] victimized, socially anxious, angry, [19:35] aggrieved, sullen, resentful, [19:38] failure-to-launch narcissist. Okay? Some [19:40] people would argue they're one in the [19:41] same. That as long as a grandiose [19:43] narcissistic person is well supplied, [19:45] things are going well, they're getting [19:47] lots of attention, they're making money, [19:49] they're they're just sort of feeling [19:50] like they're they're the person, they're [19:52] good, then they're going to they're [19:54] going to stay in their grandiose mode. [19:56] However, if the thing tips [19:59] and things everything goes wrong for the [20:00] grandiose narcissist, they lose the [20:02] money, they lose the job, they lose the [20:03] partner, they lose social status, the [20:06] vulnerable stuff will start showing up. [20:08] The victimhood, the resentment This is a [20:11] witch hunt. Everyone's out to get me. [20:12] Can almost feel sort of low-grade [20:14] paranoid. You're either more one than [20:17] another. So, the vulnerable narcissist [20:19] could definitely have a grandiose moment [20:21] if everything turned for them, but some [20:23] people are just more grandiose, some [20:25] people are more vulnerable, but they do [20:26] have the other underbelly. That's just [20:28] That's how that looks. Now, the [20:29] malignant narcissist, which is another [20:31] type I talked about, [20:33] this is where we see the most severe [20:35] form. [20:36] And that when I say most severe, most [20:37] severe in terms of how it shows up in [20:39] relationships. So, I'd say the most [20:40] problematic form of narcissism. And [20:42] here's where we see a form of narcissism [20:45] that shows up as manipulativeness, [20:47] exploitativeness, a willingness to take [20:49] advantage of people, [20:51] um coerciveness, isolation, using menace [20:55] as a tool of control, very vindictive, [20:57] dangerous. It could be quite dangerous. [20:59] Um this This is what I always say, [21:01] malignant narcissism is the last stop on [21:03] the train before you hit psychopathy [21:05] station, because this is as close to [21:07] psychopathy as you're going to get [21:08] without it being psychopathy. And in [21:10] fact, there's a personality model called [21:12] the dark tetrad. And the dark tetrad is [21:15] comprised of narcissism, psychopathy, [21:19] Machiavellianism, which is sort of like [21:21] that willingness to use other people for [21:23] your own advantage, and sadism. [21:25] I personally think there should be a [21:26] fifth bit, which is paranoia, cuz I [21:28] think these folks can be really think [21:30] everyone's out to get them, but the [21:31] model right now is those four pieces, [21:33] right? Malignant narcissism has a lot of [21:35] those top notes. The calculated, callous [21:39] coldness, the shallow charm, the shallow [21:41] superficial charm, intelligence, um the [21:45] lack of empathy, the in some ways [21:48] getting some pleasure out of seeing [21:51] someone who wronged them being hurt. So, [21:53] again, it feels more dangerous, and [21:55] that's malignant narcissism. [21:57] Is that your serial killers? I would say [21:59] the serial killers are probably more [22:01] psychopathic, and psychopathy is [22:03] definitely a different subtype. It's [22:05] different. Psychopathy is something [22:06] different than malignant narcissism. [22:08] They're not the same thing. They They [22:10] They They look different even [22:12] genetically and all and and they look [22:14] different probably look different in the [22:15] brain. Psychopathic people have um [22:18] They don't have remorse. They don't feel [22:20] guilt. Whereas malignant narcissistic [22:22] people may They know they did something [22:24] wrong. A psychopathic person, it's [22:26] almost as though they don't understand [22:28] what they did wrong. Not because they [22:29] have a mental deficit, but because they [22:31] literally have zero capacity for [22:33] empathy. And the fourth type of [22:35] narcissism? [22:36] So, I gave you vulnerable, grandiose, [22:38] malignant, and the fourth type is [22:40] communal narcissism. Right? Grandiose, [22:42] malignant, vulnerable. Yes, the fourth [22:44] type is communal narcissism. Communal [22:46] narcissism's very interesting. It's a [22:48] relatively new construct in the field. [22:50] It came around 2003 is when I started [22:52] reading some of the first papers by a [22:54] guy named Gebauer. I think he was [22:56] writing at his university in Munich at [22:57] the time. And [22:59] I I loved the work. I thought it was [23:01] absolutely compelling because it was [23:04] this idea that there were people out [23:07] there [23:08] who were going to get their narcissistic [23:10] supply not to the usual look at me, I'm [23:13] so great. I'm going to do things so [23:14] people tell me I'm great, but by doing [23:17] good deeds, by being perceived as [23:19] saviors, by being perceived as grand [23:22] rescuers, humanitarians. [23:24] So, the communal narcissist is a person [23:26] who gets their narcissistic supply, [23:28] their praise, or admiration, and their [23:30] awe [23:31] by doing these good deeds. And that's [23:33] the motivation for doing the good deeds, [23:35] not the good deed in and of itself, not [23:37] because you care about a refugee group, [23:40] not because you care about the plight of [23:42] animals, but because you want to be [23:44] viewed as a good dude. And so, that's [23:46] the communal narcissist. Now, [23:48] what gets interesting like with all [23:50] forms of narcissism, all narcissism's on [23:52] a spectrum. It's not an either/or. From [23:54] mild to severe, all of mental health is [23:56] on a spectrum. There's no such thing as [23:58] a black and white dichotomy in mental [24:00] health. It's It's It's mild to severe, [24:02] mild to severe. And what's interesting [24:04] with communal narcissism, at the lowest [24:06] ends, it's sort of like you're more like [24:08] Instagram saviors. Like, look at me, I'm [24:10] saving the world, but you know, like [24:11] they're cleaning up the beach in their [24:13] bikini. And I'm like, is this about how [24:14] attractive you are or is this about [24:15] really trying to save the environment? [24:17] Like, it really is about Are we talking [24:18] about abs or are we talking about trash [24:21] in the street? Like, what are we talking [24:22] about? But they want the validation. [24:24] Like, what a cool person you are for [24:26] spending your weekend saving elephants. [24:28] They're relatively harmless, they're [24:30] moderately ridiculous, but they do get [24:32] angry if people don't give them a big [24:34] bravo for how huma- humanitarian they [24:36] are. You take communal narcissism all [24:39] the way to the severe end of the [24:40] spectrum, you're talking about a cult [24:41] leader. These are now people who are [24:43] saying, "I have the answer to the [24:45] universe. I know everything. I know you [24:47] better than you." They'll bring people [24:49] into cultic systems. They will [24:51] completely, you know, separate them from [24:54] their sense of self and their sense of [24:55] self-worth, have no problem doing it, [24:58] and tell them that they're doing them a [24:59] good thing the whole time. That's to me [25:01] your [25:02] severe cult leader or [25:04] I think all cult leader cult leader [25:06] forget severe a cult leader is really [25:08] probably where communal and malignant [25:10] narcissism come together. [25:13] The big question, how many people are [25:16] narcissists? [25:17] This is a big question because our [25:18] problem is this, there's really no good [25:21] studies about this. It's tough to [25:22] measure narcissism. Who's really going [25:23] to cop to being really entitled or [25:26] really manipulative? You often don't get [25:28] people who are going to answer those [25:29] questions in an honest open way. [25:32] When we look at the prevalence of [25:34] narcissistic personality disorder that [25:36] are done in what we call large-scale [25:37] epidemiologic studies, we see the rates [25:39] to be somewhere between 1 and 6% but [25:41] that's the diagnosis and that's in [25:43] really structured research settings. [25:46] Narcissism is a person who has enough of [25:48] the narcissistic personality style to be [25:50] noticeable to be experienced by others. [25:52] It's a spitball number cuz we've never [25:54] done the numbers so I'd say if you [25:56] spitball number is probably sitting [25:57] somewhere between [25:59] 15 and 18%. I think that's a good guess [26:01] about one in six people. I think if [26:03] you're in a major metropolitan area, [26:05] it's going to be a little higher. I [26:06] think in certain industries, it's going [26:09] to be higher. Um I think in certain [26:11] maybe even cultures, it could be higher. [26:14] So but if you were going to just give me [26:15] ask me for a global prevalence, I mean I [26:17] think that's it's my it's my best guess [26:21] and I think a lot of folks in the field [26:22] might agree with me. Again, enough of it [26:24] that you would notice it, enough of it [26:26] that people are being affected by it. [26:29] So you've met six team members of mine [26:31] including me. [26:32] I have not. I've only met four of you. [26:35] So you're still two men down. You're [26:37] okay. [26:38] You might still be coming in through. [26:39] Cuz my next question was which one do [26:41] you think it was? [26:42] So far so bad for you cuz each one of us [26:45] has been sweeter than the next. So [26:46] Steven, you're in the hot seat right [26:48] now. [26:49] Sugar. [26:50] Okay, interesting. Okay, so I mean one [26:52] in six is a is a spitball number is is [26:55] scarily high. That's interesting you [26:57] think it's scarily high. I mean I think [26:59] it's about [27:01] I mean listen, we know how [27:03] I I actually don't think it is. I think [27:04] if you went to a small town, you might [27:06] hit closer to one in eight because I [27:08] think a small town is almost based on a [27:10] greater need for sociality. I think [27:12] there's more interdependence in that [27:14] kind of a situation. So narcissism isn't [27:16] going to probably work as well. But I I [27:18] mean one in six I think if any of us [27:20] really went home and did the soul [27:21] searching, listed out the names of [27:23] everyone we knew, [27:25] the number's probably going to track. [27:27] Is that number increasing? Are we [27:29] breeding narcissists because of the sort [27:31] of social and societal changes that have [27:33] occurred? I'm thinking about Instagram [27:35] when you said that. I was thinking is [27:37] is [27:38] social media narcissist creator? [27:41] It's I think it's a it's a narcissist [27:43] amplifier, but I don't think it's a [27:44] creator. Narcissism's a personality [27:46] style and like all personality styles, [27:48] it's a social emotional developmental [27:50] phenomenon that happens from infancy [27:52] into adolescence. So somebody jumping [27:55] onto Instagram when they're 18 and [27:57] posting lots of selfies, they're a [27:59] decent person, that's not going to turn [28:00] them narcissistic. It might turn them [28:02] boring, but I don't know that it would [28:04] necessarily turn them narcissistic. I [28:06] think it could take if somebody's got [28:07] the traits, they have the tendency to [28:09] need the validation and admiration. And [28:12] again, a person posting selfies, [28:15] that doesn't make them narcissistic. Cuz [28:17] Jack went on holiday up this mountain [28:18] and he posted loads of photos. [28:19] So no, but but I we have to if Jack's a [28:22] nice person, right? Jack is excited to [28:25] share his trip with everyone, right? [28:27] But if he was kind of like rubbing it [28:29] in. Okay, so it's a that's right. Jack [28:31] just lost some points there. Poor Jack. [28:33] But it's a But but I would say this, [28:36] what we'd want to know with anyone who's [28:37] posted a lot of vacation photos, right? [28:40] And they keep doing it. [28:42] How present are they when you're [28:43] actually with them? If you say say [28:45] "Listen, Jack is the loveliest person in [28:47] the world and Jack loves sharing his [28:50] vacation trips and there's a little bit [28:52] of schadenfreude in there, like, you [28:53] know, but he's a sweetie." Then Jack's [28:56] off the hook, right? I think though that [28:58] what not what social media has become is [29:01] it has taken [29:03] Once upon a time [29:05] and you're probably even You're you're [29:06] you're not so young that you wouldn't [29:07] remember this, but I remembered it as a [29:09] full-grown ass woman is that I can tell [29:11] you that if I go backwards to when I [29:13] first heard about social media, I was [29:15] already in my 40s at that point. And um [29:18] and I remember looking at it and I was [29:20] already studying narcissism and I said, [29:21] "Oh god." I I And it was really like it [29:24] was almost like, "Houston, we have a [29:26] problem." kind of thing. I had someone [29:28] else had shown it to me and I thought to [29:30] myself, "This isn't going to create more [29:31] narcissists." But once upon a time [29:34] for a narcissistic person to get [29:36] validation [29:37] they'd actually have to have a shave and [29:38] a shower and get out of the house. You [29:40] couldn't just sit home [29:42] and get validation. You had to go go to [29:44] work get it in the family sphere, get it [29:47] in your town bar or pub or something [29:49] like that, but it wasn't going to come [29:51] home from you just sitting on your ass [29:53] at home [29:54] taking pictures of yourself cuz I don't [29:56] know if you've ever tried to take a [29:57] picture of yourself with the camera, [29:59] you're either going to catch your head [30:00] or your mouth. Like that's how we used [30:02] to try to do it, right? So now there was [30:04] a tool for these people to have a [30:06] megaphone to say, "Look how wonderful I [30:09] am." So a person who was already [30:11] narcissistic [30:13] this was going to harness it and sort of [30:15] it was an accelerant on a fire that was [30:17] already burning. But I don't put [30:19] the house though, isn't it? Which is [30:20] sounds like it's a safer place for it to [30:21] be than wondering around the streets. [30:22] Yeah, well, the point is what? Keeping [30:24] Oh, keeping them in the at home rather [30:26] than But I still think that what it did [30:28] though is now we get into a bigger [30:29] philosophical question. This many people [30:32] depicting lives that are Look how much [30:34] better my life is than yours. Look how [30:36] together I am. Look how great I'm doing. [30:39] While that might be something the [30:41] narcissistic people will do to offset [30:43] their sense of insecurity because that's [30:44] sort of the core wound in narcissism. [30:47] There are other vulnerable people who [30:49] are watching that content who are not [30:50] narcissistic but already feel like they [30:52] don't measure up and we've created this [30:54] really messy space of people who already [30:57] devalue themselves looking at these [30:59] lives far better than theirs and [31:01] wondering what's wrong with me. [31:05] Roughly one in six people have a podcast [31:07] so I was just wondering [31:11] I mean that that MANY PEOPLE THINK THEY [31:12] HAVE SOMETHING that interesting to say, [31:13] right? So um [31:16] And like I said everybody's trying to [31:17] put their voice out there, their [31:18] vacation pictures out there, their [31:20] breakfast pictures out there are not [31:22] narcissistic. I think in some cases I I [31:24] don't think we should over pathologize [31:27] what has become a new way of [31:28] interacting. I've got It's interesting. [31:30] I've children my my my daughters are now [31:32] both in their early 20s and I'll watch [31:34] their facility but they're it's not I [31:37] see what they're doing. It's not [31:37] narcissism. It's actually communication [31:40] and they're staying in touch with a very [31:41] large net of widely spread friends and [31:44] there is a lot of intimacy there. So I [31:46] think young people whose cognition kind [31:49] of also grew with it, they use it in a [31:51] more sort of seamless way. The Listen, [31:54] what's it been around? We're we're going [31:55] to soon come come 20 years around 20 [31:58] years since social media's been around, [32:00] right? We're we're rounding that horn [32:01] soon. We're going to get it's going to [32:03] take a minute to get the data. We're [32:04] going to get our first set of data from [32:06] the kids whose lives were captured from [32:09] the day they plopped onto a delivery [32:10] table all the way right through [32:11] adolescence. That data's going to be [32:14] very telling. I don't think it's created [32:15] more narcissism. I think we've always [32:17] had grandiose narcissists. I think they [32:19] make history. They've been our leaders. [32:21] They're the people we've always looked [32:22] to. They've been the town mayor or [32:24] whatever. I think what it's all that has [32:26] done though, it's taken this problem of [32:28] vulnerable narcissism and it's really [32:30] blown it up because the vulnerable [32:32] narcissistic people get super resentful [32:35] when they perceive other people as [32:36] having these awesome lives that they [32:38] don't and they get more angry and this [32:40] is sort of the advent of the internet [32:42] troll. A lot of that is explained by [32:44] vulnerable narcissism. [32:46] So, where does narcissism come from [32:48] then? It's one of the the big questions. [32:50] It from what you said there, I assume it [32:52] comes there might be a genetic component [32:55] that's brought out by our childhood or [32:57] So, we're all born with a temperament, [32:59] right? I don't know if you're an only [33:00] child, if you have siblings or anything [33:02] like [33:02] Youngest of four. You're youngest of [33:03] four. Okay, so this is harder for you. [33:04] So, you would have It'd be interesting [33:05] for you to talk with them is that and [33:07] your your your parents, whoever was the [33:09] parents, whoever were around, every one [33:12] of you, you and your siblings, had [33:13] slightly different [33:15] personalities from the day you were [33:16] born. And that rolled out in early [33:18] childhood. So, you'll see that one kid [33:20] who's just easy breezy from the day [33:22] they're born. You'll sometimes see that [33:24] kid who's just a clenched up ball of [33:26] nerves from the day they're born. You'll [33:28] see that kid who just doesn't want to [33:29] chill for a minute from the day they're [33:31] born. That stuff is called temperament. [33:33] And what we know about temperament is [33:35] that there are certain temperaments and [33:37] those that make a child more [33:39] biologically vulnerable, little bit more [33:41] difficult to soothe. They may be more [33:43] They just sort of need more, right? So, [33:44] they're more of a demand on a caregiver. [33:47] It that with that more vulnerable [33:49] temperament, if that comes up against an [33:51] environment that's at all invalidating, [33:54] trauma, neglect, other adversities, [33:57] chaos, domestic violence, substance use [34:00] in the family, [34:02] um [34:02] and it even emotional abuse, where the [34:04] child is just being told, "Stop. Sit [34:06] down. Shut up. Why can't you be like [34:08] your sisters?" right? That com- that [34:10] combination [34:12] can actually set up a real risk for [34:14] developing narcissism. So, that's [34:15] pathway one. But pathway two, and this [34:18] is actually coming out of really [34:19] interesting work by a guy named Eddie [34:21] Brummelman from the University of [34:22] Amsterdam. It's fascinating work. And he [34:24] is studying more sort of How do we do [34:26] What's the other pathway? Well, the [34:28] other pathway, and other folks like [34:29] Masterson and others have written about [34:31] this, which is the overvalued child. [34:33] These are the children who are told, [34:35] "You're more special than any other [34:37] child." Not that you're special, but you [34:39] are more special than him and him and [34:41] her, so you shouldn't have to wait in [34:43] the line. You're more special. You [34:45] should get the teacher you want. You [34:46] should get everything you want. Those [34:48] children often they don't learn to [34:50] self-soothe. They often aren't as well [34:52] regulated. They actually kind of believe [34:54] the hype that the parent is giving them, [34:55] which is not doing them any favors. And [34:57] Bromomans is suggesting that this could [34:59] sort of be a foreshadowing of what could [35:01] turn into adult narcissism. You I'm [35:04] guessing you need that temperament on [35:05] board. I think if you had a [35:06] sweet-tempered kid, that constantly [35:09] being told that they're special actually [35:10] might leave the sweet-tempered kid [35:12] feeling a little bit guilty, actually. [35:14] But the kid with that more [35:15] vulnerable temperament, they might sort [35:17] of they might buy into the hype. So you [35:19] sort of have this one pathway of [35:21] adversity. [35:22] You have the one pathway of sort of [35:24] these are kids who are told, "You're [35:26] great. You can have anything you want. [35:27] We'll do anything you want. Let's go on [35:28] this vacation. Here's this device." But [35:31] they're off also kids that are often [35:33] very emotionally undernourished. They're [35:36] not They're not their emotions are not [35:38] valued. They're not reflected. They're [35:40] not mirrored. So these are kids who are [35:42] get get get, but it's a very tenuous [35:44] existence because they're still not in [35:46] touch with their emotional world, which [35:48] has to happen in childhood, otherwise [35:50] you don't get that [35:51] So you don't get that atlas of your own [35:53] emotions, right? So those tend to be the [35:55] two primary pathways. Now, [35:58] not every kid who goes through those [36:00] pathways will will become narcissistic. [36:02] In fact, the vast majority will not. So [36:04] I think that it's a very complicated and [36:07] what we call it's very it's it's [36:09] multi-determined. It's a very [36:11] multi-determined series of pathways to [36:13] what leads to adult narcissism. And [36:15] because of that, I always say, [36:17] "Narcissism is one of those stories we [36:19] can always tell backwards, but it's [36:20] really difficult to tell forwards." [36:23] Don't show me your 17-year-old who is [36:25] who is has a lot of attitude and won't [36:27] empty the dishwasher and calls you names [36:29] and don't ask me if he's narcissistic. I [36:31] usually tell those parents call me in 10 [36:33] years. And in 10 years you're going to [36:35] see if this tracked or he pops out of it [36:37] like every adolescent who's trying to [36:39] kind of individuate from his parents and [36:42] settles down into a decent guy. You [36:43] mentioned that narcissism exists on a [36:45] spectrum. So does that mean that someone [36:47] can be a little bit narcissistic? I [36:49] would say somebody can have milder [36:51] narcissistic presentation. So what I [36:53] mean by milder that the mild [36:55] narcissistic people, the best adjective [36:57] I could use are they're annoying. [36:58] They're emotionally immature, they're [37:01] superficial, they're shallow, they're [37:03] vapid and and they're also very [37:06] self-centered. So these are people when [37:08] they're having a problem they expect the [37:09] world to stop for them, take their [37:10] calls, talk to them for hours. But the [37:13] day finally comes that you need your [37:14] friend, they're nowhere to be seen like [37:16] oh, I don't have time for this. So it [37:19] can feel like a very very imbalanced [37:21] relationship. And when you're with them, [37:22] the mild narcissist can actually be kind [37:24] of fun, right? They're they're like [37:26] let's go to this new hot hip whatever [37:28] blah blah blah and they're fun and laugh [37:30] and dance and attention seeking. Could [37:32] be fun for a minute, but they're it [37:35] would be very difficult to have a [37:36] long-term committed relationship with [37:38] someone like that. It'd be difficult to [37:39] raise children with someone like that. [37:40] It would have been very difficult to [37:41] have been raised by someone like that. [37:44] Are narcissists more successful [37:46] professionally? Yes. [37:48] They're much more successful. That's the [37:50] problem. And not I mean again I and I'm [37:52] not going to make this a blanket [37:53] statement, but I mean an Italian that [37:56] they are [37:57] they're more ambitious. Success is life [38:00] or death to them, right? Because it's [38:01] validation. It's the it's the it's the [38:04] blood that flows to their psyche. So the [38:06] stakes are much higher for them. The [38:07] rest of us we want to succeed, but at [38:09] the end of the day we would say I've got [38:10] my family, I got my friends, I got [38:12] enough money in the bank, I got some [38:13] food in my belly like I'm good. But for [38:15] them it is it's the air in their lungs. [38:17] So they're more represented in [38:19] leadership. They are they make more [38:21] money, especially narcissistic men make [38:23] more money than agree um agreeable men. [38:27] Um they're more successful at dating. Um [38:30] they're more successful. And [38:32] unfortunately, the way our economy is [38:35] set up, it is set up so that the [38:38] narcissistic people win. Narcissism and [38:40] capitalism go together really well [38:42] because it's a competitive system that [38:45] rewards the person who does the most and [38:47] we don't look at process, we look at [38:49] outcome. And because when they anytime [38:51] you have an outcome-heavy metric, [38:53] narcissistic people are always going to [38:55] win. [38:57] I'm thinking about some of the greatest [38:58] companies that have been built that [39:00] changed the world, you know, Apple being [39:02] one of them. [39:04] Oftentimes when you hear about how these [39:06] people treated other people, [39:08] um [39:10] it sounds like the narcissistic [39:12] characteristics that you described [39:14] earlier. [39:15] You know, but then we often excuse that [39:17] because of what they brought into the [39:19] world, the great innovations, the great [39:20] companies they built, how they helped [39:21] change the world, how they maybe led us [39:23] through or out of war. [39:25] Mhm. So, [39:27] what do you say to that? Is it sometimes [39:30] worth the narcissism for what they gave [39:32] the world? So, here's here's a rub. I [39:33] completely agree with what you're [39:35] saying. I actually think that some of [39:37] the greatest innovations, greatest [39:39] creativity, in fact, many wartime [39:41] presidents and prime ministers were had [39:44] to be narcissistic, right? And might [39:46] have gotten countries, people through [39:49] messes, might have made the [39:51] decisive postures that were necessary, [39:54] that might have made the [39:56] really, really kind of um difficult [39:59] corporate decisions that needed to be [40:00] made with little regard for how the [40:02] human beings were going to get hurt, [40:03] treated people in a push them to an [40:05] inhuman limit. And then there was this [40:08] thing that came out of it. Was it worth [40:10] it? I mean, now we're in now we're in [40:11] philosophy, honey, and I'm a [40:12] psychologist, but but [40:16] suffice it to say, [40:19] you know, there's some there's always [40:19] been talk like even inventors like Tom [40:21] Alva Thomas Alva Edison wasn't a night [40:24] was not a nice guy, right? Some archival [40:26] research. [40:28] Loving these light bulbs, right? Would [40:30] someone else have done it? It's a moot [40:32] point. He did. And so [40:35] I think the innovations are important. I [40:37] think narcissistic people are built for [40:38] innovation. They're grandiose. They're [40:40] dreamers. They want the adulation. They [40:42] want to do the big thing. They want to [40:44] be on the big tech stage and have all [40:46] the lights on them and have all the [40:48] attention while they have the beautiful [40:49] video and the simple thing and they want [40:51] that. That is their everything. And what [40:54] I tell people is we're never going to [40:56] have a world without them. We have [40:58] gotten lots of cool stuff in our lives [41:01] from them. Just don't marry them. [41:06] Is it possible to be [41:09] the person on the stage [41:11] to build the incredible thing, to have [41:14] the insane ambition to put little [41:16] computers into our pockets, and do all [41:19] of that, and not be a narcissist? [41:21] I fully believe they're absolutely 100%. [41:23] I think it's harder though. I really [41:25] really do. I think that the empathic CEO [41:28] is an is a unicorn. It's tough. The you [41:31] know, and it because they're they're [41:33] answering to so many masters, right? [41:35] They're answering to shareholders. [41:36] They're answering to rank and file. [41:37] They're answering to management. It's I [41:40] wouldn't want that job. I I'm a very [41:42] agreeable empathic person and I I I I [41:44] got to tell you I'd I'd rather do any [41:46] job than that one. It sounds I'd love [41:48] the money, but I it's it sounds [41:49] terrible. And I think that the kind of [41:52] shapeshifting and chameleon-like [41:54] qualities that required, it's I would [41:56] say that an empathic person would get a [41:58] bit more swallowed up in that job cuz if [42:00] you actually stopped to care about [42:01] everyone you were serving in that [42:03] position, you would burn out real fast. [42:06] The not caring, I think is what actually [42:08] can protect a person in that position. [42:10] And that's not to say all CEOs are [42:12] narcissistic, though a lot are. Because [42:14] it's a competition at the end of the [42:15] day. [42:15] a competition at the end of the day, and [42:17] narcissistic people are built for [42:18] competition. They're built for it, [42:20] because they have to win at any cost. [42:22] The rest of us are probably like, "I'm [42:24] out." Yeah, a lot of industries are a [42:26] zero-sum game. Not business generally [42:28] isn't, but when I say zero-sum game, I [42:29] mean this, you know, when um one person [42:32] does well, that kind of means that [42:34] someone else is not going to do well. [42:35] So, I'm thinking about some industries, [42:36] even [42:37] one of my companies, ThirdWeb, [42:39] we realized that it's kind of a [42:41] winner-takes-all industry, in the same [42:43] way that like Amazon is like there's one [42:46] Amazon, and they dominate the whole of [42:47] them, pretty much all the market share. [42:49] And with Google, there's one Google, and [42:51] their nearest competitor probably has 5% [42:53] of the market share. So, there are [42:55] elements in business where it is pretty [42:56] winner-takes-all, and it's conceivable [42:58] to think the person who is most [43:00] ruthless, most willing to cut ethical [43:03] corners, [43:04] most willing to put profits over people, [43:07] is probably going to rise to the top. [43:09] So, you know, generally, at least in the [43:11] short term. In the short term, and but [43:13] the thing is, and they'll cash out. [43:14] Yeah, or their bad ethics will catch up [43:17] with them. Or their bad ethics will [43:18] catch up. [43:19] end up in jail, which we see a lot. [43:20] We do. We see it, and I think for some [43:22] people it was a was it was a worthy [43:24] gamble, because they could have [43:25] potentially won it all, right? Or they [43:27] or they truly believed they were going [43:29] to get away with it. And I think that [43:31] that's when we used the word arrogance. [43:33] Arrogance is at the it's at its deepest [43:35] level is, "I'm going to do the bad [43:37] thing, and I'm going to get away with [43:38] it." [43:40] What about money? Um does money make you [43:42] more narcissistic? [43:45] Here's where it gets to be an [43:45] interesting conversation, and I write [43:47] about this actually more in my other [43:48] book, in Don't You Know Who I Am, where [43:50] I [43:51] money breeds privilege, money breeds [43:53] entitle- entitlement. So, they call this [43:55] sort of phenomenon of feet that never [43:57] touch the ground, right? If people have [43:59] enough money, they're whisked to [44:00] airports in cars, they don't stand in [44:02] the TSA line with the unwashed masses, [44:05] like the rest of us do. They're taken to [44:07] the best hotel suites. They are They [44:09] don't think about where their next meal [44:10] is coming from. It's brought to them. [44:11] They don't They don't do the all the the [44:13] stuff that the rest of us do. They don't [44:15] tolerate the indignities, and they don't [44:17] have to regulate the same way. [44:19] So, when a person has money for long [44:21] enough, that feet never touching the [44:23] ground creates what I call this sort of [44:26] privileged entitlement. Doesn't [44:28] [ __ ] What's that? Maybe [ __ ] [44:29] but maybe not. I think it's also that [44:31] bubble-wrapped way that they go through [44:33] life. Like, they actually don't [44:35] understand how to use the self-checkout [44:37] at Target. Did you hear the Paul Piff [44:39] study from the University of California? [44:40] yeah. He's great, by the way. He's [44:42] wonderful. Which Which he did so many. [44:44] Which study are you referring to? [44:45] Um the one where people are made to feel [44:48] wealthier, and when they feel wealthier, [44:51] they were more likely to endorse [44:53] unethical decisions, such as stealing [44:54] office supplies and stealing candy. [44:56] People who were made to feel wealthier [44:58] also gave less to charity. People who [45:00] were who were made to feel wealthier [45:02] expressed happiness through feelings [45:03] that were self-focused, such as through [45:05] pride, um contentment, and amusement. [45:07] And people who felt less wealthy were [45:10] more likely to agree with statements [45:11] that were focused on others. [45:13] That's right. Which kind of suggests [45:14] that being wealthier and feeling [45:16] wealthier makes you more of an [ __ ] [45:18] Makes you more of an [ __ ] It makes [45:20] you more self-referential, right? So, I [45:22] think that, you know, does that make [45:23] sense? [45:24] You'd think it'd be the other way [45:25] around. [45:25] Not at all. Not at all. Because I think [45:27] that again, it's Paul's research is [45:29] great, by the way. He's wonderful. He [45:30] actually did another research study [45:32] where he studied um He look He went to [45:34] busy uh intersections in Orange County. [45:37] He's professor at UC Irvine, or was at [45:38] the time when I had met him. Um and [45:40] they'd go to busy intersections, stop [45:42] signs, not red lights. And he found that [45:44] people who drove luxury cars were [45:47] far less likely to make a full stop at [45:49] the stop sign and be compared to people [45:52] who had more sort of, you know, [45:53] middle-level cars. I mean, it was [45:55] fascinating. So, there's And And there's [45:56] there's at least a dozen published [45:58] studies that show that narcissistic [46:00] people drive more dangerously. So, it's [46:01] an interesting kind of an accumulation. [46:03] But per the money part, [46:06] I don't believe like if a person was a [46:08] full-grown adult, 30, 35 years old, and [46:11] they were an agreeable, [46:13] warm, self-aware person, [46:17] and they made a lot of money, [46:19] okay? I don't think you would turn them [46:21] narcissistic. [46:23] I do think you might undercut that [46:25] self-awareness because they may be sort [46:27] of pulled out of the world that the rest [46:30] of us live in. So, there might be [46:32] unrealistic expectations for how the [46:34] world like why are we waiting in this [46:36] line? I'm like, "Well, that's cuz what [46:37] we do is wait in this line." Cuz they've [46:39] come out of it, but they're not cruel [46:41] about it. They're like, "Why are these [46:42] dumb people making me wait in line?" So, [46:44] it's not a dismissiveness. It's almost [46:45] like, "How is this so inefficient?" [46:48] There's almost a [46:50] There's like a disconnect, I guess. So, [46:51] I wouldn't say money [46:54] I think what he's showing is that money [46:55] creates a self-centeredness, [46:57] right? As you thought it might go the [46:59] other way, but I think that we sort of [47:01] double down on sort of keeping it and we [47:03] There's a There's an importance. I mean, [47:04] money is is the ultimate source of [47:06] narcissistic supply because it delivers [47:09] power, it delivers admiration, it [47:12] delivers a greater likelihood of getting [47:13] sex or getting laid, it delivers all [47:16] kinds of stuff. So, for a narcissistic [47:18] person, the quest of for money is the [47:21] the surest quick ticket way to get this [47:24] thing called narcissistic supply. So, [47:26] you'll often see them attempting to do [47:27] that by any means possible. So, but they [47:30] but they're driven to the money. I don't [47:32] think that the money is what makes [47:34] people rotten. I think the bubble [47:35] wrapping at that point makes them [47:36] entitled. It's a different conversation. [47:39] How do you know if you are a narcissist? [47:43] Do Like does a narcissist know they are [47:45] one? Is there a a narcissist test one [47:47] can do? [47:48] I don't There's about [47:50] five to six tests out there that are [47:52] designed to detect narcissism in its [47:54] various ways. [47:55] All of them have flaws, like I said, and [47:57] it's not it's not even fully the fault [47:59] of the test because this is a very [48:01] difficult thing to measure, right? We're [48:02] we're trying to measure things that are [48:04] not socially desirable, right? That's [48:07] really tough to measure. So, a lot of [48:09] the narcissism tests will measure things [48:12] like and some entitlement, [48:14] assertiveness, [48:16] self-importance that people may not find [48:18] as offensive, but the research actually [48:21] shows that narcissistic people [48:23] overestimate their empathy and [48:26] underestimate their negative effect on [48:28] other people. They do not have a clear [48:31] look at themselves. They really have an [48:33] almost deluded sense of who they are and [48:37] how they go through the world. So, when [48:39] a person says to me, "I think I'm [48:41] narcissistic." I always say, "Hold the [48:43] presses. You need to tell me a little [48:45] bit about you." Because there's a lot of [48:47] people out there [48:48] who think of themselves as narcissistic [48:51] because they're in relationships with [48:52] narcissistic people who have told them [48:55] over the years, "You are such a selfish [48:57] person." Because this unfortunate person [49:00] is doing simple things like saying, [49:01] "Hey, could we go where I want to go for [49:03] dinner once?" Or you know, "I want to [49:05] talk about my feelings." And then their [49:07] narcissistic partner is saying, "Oh my [49:08] gosh, you're so selfish." And they're [49:10] really sort of indoctrinated into this [49:12] idea of gaslighted into this idea that [49:14] there's something narcissistic about [49:16] them. Once we clear the decks of that, [49:18] is there a subset of people out there [49:20] who are narcissistic and are kind of in [49:23] some awareness like, "This might be who [49:25] I am." Yes, and we call them self-aware [49:27] narcissistic people. They're out there. [49:29] Some of them view narcissism as a [49:31] superpower. They say like, "Don't take [49:33] this away from me. This is why I've got [49:34] the edge. This is why I close the sale. [49:36] This is why I'm the man." I had one [49:38] client who was like, "I'm the man." I'm [49:40] like, "Oh my gosh, you sound like a [49:41] 6-year-old, but okay." Do people men [49:44] come to you, women come to you and say, [49:45] "I am a narcissist?" [49:46] Yes, I've had that happen. It's not [49:48] common. I can count on one hand the [49:49] number of times it's happened. And did [49:51] you agree with them? And they I did [49:52] about an hour, yeah. [49:54] What were they How did they figure out [49:57] they were narcissists? What were they [49:58] saying? [49:58] They might have They might have read my [50:00] books or more [50:02] more likely saw a YouTube video. They [50:04] might have, you know, sort of again, [50:05] seen my content. Someone might have [50:06] called said that to them and then they [50:08] looked it up on Google and they're like, [50:10] that is kind of me. But they did in many [50:12] ways rationalize it saying, this is why [50:14] I always close the deal. This is who I [50:15] am. Like, you know, what was it? Don't [50:17] hate the [50:19] Don't hate the player, hate the game. [50:20] They would try that kind of stuff with [50:21] me. And I'd say, but your behavior is [50:23] offensive. Like, this is not okay. What [50:25] you're doing, what you did, you're doing [50:27] on an ongoing basis to your spouse or [50:29] partner is not okay. And so, they would [50:32] have that awareness like almost like [50:34] from a checklist. Yeah, like, yeah, I [50:36] don't care that much about people's [50:37] feelings. And yeah, I guess I kind of [50:38] think the rules don't apply to me. [50:40] They'll have that awareness. It's pretty [50:41] uncommon. Like I said, most narcissistic [50:44] people veer into this idea of They [50:47] overestimate their [50:48] goodness and generosity. Underestimate [50:51] how [50:52] how negatively they're viewed by other [50:54] people. [50:55] So, let's talk then about the impacts of [50:57] narcissism on relationships, in [50:59] particular. [51:00] What kind of people do narcissists [51:03] attract [51:05] in relationships? And what kind of [51:06] people are attracted to narcissists? So, [51:08] it's such a big question. I'm so glad [51:10] you asked it. What kind of people do [51:12] they attract? Everyone's attracted to [51:14] narcissistic people. They're charming. [51:16] They're charismatic. They're confident. [51:19] They're In research has shown they're [51:20] often rated as more attractive than [51:22] other people. They take good care of [51:24] their bodies. They know lots of [51:26] interesting things. They're so concerned [51:28] about hip cred that they are like They [51:30] know the cool restaurants. That they [51:33] All of us have been indoctrinated to [51:35] think that these are people we're [51:36] supposed to be dating, right? Who says [51:39] no to charm, charisma, and [51:41] attractiveness? Me, maybe. But just [51:43] about nobody else would do that. So, [51:45] we're all attracted to them, right? [51:47] Until And even with the vulnerable [51:49] narcissistic folks, you'll say, "Really? [51:51] Someone's going to be attracted to [51:52] sullen and resentful?" Well, that's not [51:54] how they come off when you first meet [51:55] them. Many times a vulnerable [51:57] narcissistic person looks like a [51:58] vulnerable child who needs to be [52:00] rescued. So, if you like rescuing people [52:02] or puppies or any small vulnerable [52:04] creature, that's going to seem actually [52:06] very attractive to you. So, we're all [52:08] attracted to them. What about what are [52:09] they attracted to in us? [52:11] They're What they're attracted to in us [52:13] is our supply. Now, supply can mean [52:15] different things to different [52:16] narcissistic folks. Classical sorts of [52:18] supply are are we attractive? [52:21] If we're attractive, if we have some [52:23] form of social status, if we have [52:25] resource, if we have connections, the [52:28] things that would get them supply. [52:31] Here's where it gets wonky. Cuz the [52:33] question Attractiveness is what attracts [52:36] people is almost the wrong question. The [52:38] more deep question is what gets people [52:41] stuck in narcissistic relationships. [52:44] Because narcissistic relationships start [52:46] strong. These are people who are running [52:48] their fastest miles in the beginning of [52:49] the marathon. Like they're just like go. [52:51] And you This is These can often feel [52:53] like a fairy tale. It is It's glamorous, [52:56] and it's exciting, and it's The dates [52:59] are really interesting, and they're very [53:00] attuned. They may be very attentive. [53:03] They focus on you, and they figure [53:05] what's going to work for you. If they [53:07] really want to keep you close, it's they [53:09] want to they want to get you, and they [53:11] want to get you quick. Cuz then you're [53:13] like a butterfly under glass. Then [53:14] they've got you captured. Because after [53:16] all this good stuff happens, you've [53:18] bought in. [53:20] You might even be dubious for a while [53:21] saying, "This seems seem too good to be [53:22] true." Or I don't know, but then people [53:26] after about I always say it's somewhere [53:27] between 6 weeks and 6 months, the [53:30] devaluing stage starts. And then it's [53:32] they've got you, right? And they they [53:34] you might get the [53:36] passive-aggressive digs, the [53:38] minimizations, [53:39] the [53:41] lack of empathy, the withdrawing, the [53:43] withholding. And people will say, "Where [53:45] did that first 6 weeks go?" They're [53:47] like, "Wait a minute, we had such a good [53:48] time." [53:49] And as the devaluing begins, people [53:51] start to blame themselves. [53:53] So, people who are more empathic, more [53:56] forgiving, more optimistic, these are [53:59] the kinds of people who get stuck [54:01] because they're making allowances for [54:02] this. They're saying, [54:04] "I mean, I can't I they they were lovely [54:05] and they did say they're having a really [54:07] stressful time at work, but their [54:09] behavior is consistently dismissive and [54:11] rude." And so, you keep making excuses, [54:13] excuses, excuses. [54:15] But then there's a few good days [54:16] sprinkled in there. [54:18] So, one of the interesting things is um [54:21] a lot of people are trying to figure out [54:22] if their partners are narcissists. [54:25] Do people in relationships, especially [54:27] long-term relationships, tend to know [54:29] that they're dating a narcissist? [54:31] Or is the nas- Or is the narcissist [54:33] gaslighted them to the point that they [54:36] they don't know? Until recently, most [54:37] people did not know because it's it [54:39] feels like a disloyal thing to know [54:41] about your partner. Many people say, "I [54:43] love my partner. We have built a life [54:44] together. There are enough good days [54:46] that leave them thinking like there's [54:48] something here." [54:49] They're confused. People in these [54:51] relationships are confused. They're [54:53] they blame themselves for everything [54:54] that goes wrong. They're walking on [54:56] eggshells. They've in essence modified [54:58] themselves to be exactly what the [55:00] narcissistic partner wants. But it's a [55:02] slow burn. It's it's a very slow process [55:05] of indoctrination. I always say, "These [55:07] relationships are death by a thousand [55:09] cuts." Because each each of these things [55:11] happens slowly over time. It's almost as [55:13] if one day you wake up, you're like, [55:14] "Who am I Like, what have I become? I'm [55:16] literally like living in service to this [55:19] other person." [55:21] It's only in the last 10 years, I'd say, [55:23] that there's so much more content and [55:25] the internet is more robust with making [55:27] this. And I'm sure people type it in, [55:29] "My partner has no empathy and is really [55:31] entitled and yells at me a lot." Bing, [55:33] and then narcissism pops out at you. I [55:35] think this really created the revolution [55:37] of people saying, "What is this?" And [55:39] even when I wrote Should I Stay or [55:41] Should I Go? That was 2015, [55:43] I think it was. We're still in the [55:45] beginning phases of it, just maybe about [55:46] a dozen books out there taking this on. [55:48] And so, [55:49] we it's it's a As more information gets [55:52] out there, more people are clear [55:55] that this is happening in their [55:56] relationships. The hope is the earlier [55:58] you identify it, the less indoctrinated, [56:01] the less what we call trauma bonded you [56:02] become. And then the easier it would be [56:04] to make clear-headed decisions about how [56:07] you want to proceed. You talk about the [56:09] three Rs that are the hallmarks of [56:11] negative relationships in your books. [56:13] What are the three Rs? [56:14] So, the first is rumination, okay? That [56:17] The rumination is it's an obsessive [56:20] thinking about the relationship, and [56:21] it's usually in an attempt to either [56:23] say, "What did I do wrong? What [56:25] happened? What is going on?" It's a [56:27] trying to fix it. [56:28] So, these are the three things that [56:30] someone that's in a relationship with a [56:32] narcissist will do. Mhm. Yeah. I mean, [56:34] they do a lot more, but these are three [56:36] common ones. So, the rumination is a [56:37] hallmark characteristic of a person in a [56:40] narcissistic relationship. In essence, [56:42] you're just trying to make sense of [56:44] something that makes no sense. The next [56:46] R is regret. [56:48] And that regret links to bigger themes [56:50] like grief. People having regret that [56:52] this is the parent I have, and I will [56:54] never have a close loving relationship [56:56] with them. The regret that this is the [56:58] marriage I created, and my children will [57:00] never get a healthy model of marriage. [57:02] The regret that I've spent 20 years in [57:04] this relationship, and really all I have [57:06] to show for it is a whole lot of nothing [57:08] except that it's harmed me. So, the [57:10] regrets play out either big ways and [57:12] even small ways. Like, "Why did I say [57:14] that? Why didn't I say it that way?" And [57:16] then the last R is It's really euphoric [57:19] recall, the R being for recall. By [57:21] euphoric recall, I mean that people in [57:23] narcissistic relationships have an [57:25] uncanny ability to sort of cherry-pick [57:29] the good things that happened in the [57:31] relationship to keep rationalizing and [57:33] justifying it to themselves. So, they [57:35] might be in a narcissistic relationship [57:37] where the person has really treated them [57:39] heinously for a month, but on one day of [57:42] that month, the narcissistic person, [57:44] when they went to the grocery store, for [57:46] the first time remembered to bring home [57:48] two muffins so that you could have a [57:50] muffin. And the person is like, "They [57:52] brought me home the best blueberry [57:54] muffin. Wasn't that thoughtful? They [57:56] brought me home a muffin. We had muffins [57:58] together." So, the euphoric recall is [58:00] the overfocus on those good experiences [58:04] as a way in essence to create this sort [58:06] of psychological buy-in so that you can [58:08] maintain the status quo. For people in [58:11] narcissistic relationships, it's not as [58:13] though they're waking up saying, "This [58:14] is a hellscape I want to get out." [58:16] They're getting up saying, "I'm so [58:18] confused. I feel like I'm never enough. [58:20] Nothing I do is ever enough. Nothing I [58:23] say is ever They're not listening to me. [58:25] What is going on? Maybe I'm not being [58:27] clear enough. Maybe there's something [58:28] wrong with me." So, that's the confusion [58:31] element. So, it's not like everyone is [58:33] saying, "I want to get out of this." [58:35] There's a lot of history. There's a lot [58:37] of experiences together. So, people [58:39] again, and they're also confused cuz [58:40] there's good things that happen and bad [58:42] things that happen, and that's what [58:43] creates, like I said, this thing called [58:44] the trauma-bonded relationship. So, [58:46] people might even be able to say like, [58:49] "There's something about this that isn't [58:50] okay." And might even be able to [58:52] articulate, "These are the problems in [58:54] the relationship, but the idea of [58:56] leaving this relationship fills me with [58:58] an absolute sense of panic." Would a [59:00] Would a narcissist play to that [59:02] insecurity and that um [59:05] that history? Well, the narcissistic [59:07] person created the insecurity, and they [59:09] they will. Because the narcissistic [59:11] person is an expert tactician, right? [59:13] Cuz that's what they bring to [59:14] relationships is tactics. And so, they [59:17] are very expert at knowing like, "Ah, [59:19] your wound is abandonment. Piece of [59:21] cake." So, if you say, "I I can't do [59:24] this anymore. I'm out." the narcissistic [59:26] partner might say, "Okay, cool. Let's [59:27] call it quits." And you're like, [59:28] "That's not what I wanted them to say. I [59:30] wanted them to say they were going to [59:31] fight for the relationship." You see [59:33] what I'm saying? Like there It's so [59:35] interesting because And part of the [59:36] reason narcissistic people are so [59:38] successful is because they're so [59:40] socially perceptive. [59:42] They have no empathy. Social [59:44] perceptiveness and empathy are not the [59:46] same thing. What are they? Social [59:48] perceptiveness is kind of being aware of [59:50] reading the room, understanding what [59:52] people need, understanding what makes [59:54] them tick and what they want, and then [59:57] strategically giving it to them to keep [59:59] them on the chain or keep them in the [60:01] position you need them in. [60:03] That's not empathic. [60:05] Manipulation, you used the word earlier [60:07] on to describe narcissism. [60:10] There's two types of manipulation you [60:11] speak about, which is the the sort of [60:13] normal manipulation, which I think we [60:14] all do in our own ways when we're trying [60:16] to get our way with a deal or with sales [60:19] or with someone or whatever, when we're [60:20] trying to haggle for a discount, [60:21] whatever it might be. And then there's [60:23] this pathological manipulation, which [60:26] seems to be a little bit different. [60:27] Mhm. Yeah. Pathological manipulation is [60:30] that there's absolutely no regard for [60:31] the harm it's bringing the other person. [60:33] You really are giving absolute primacy [60:36] to your own needs and then making the [60:38] other person think that this truly is [60:41] good for them. This isn't as simple as [60:43] I'm going to sell this car to someone, [60:44] maybe it's not the right car for them. [60:46] This is really around psychological [60:48] stuff. And it's with somebody where it [60:51] Listen, you're going into a sales [60:52] relationship, you understand what the [60:54] sort of the codes of that relationship [60:57] are. They're trying to sell you [60:58] something you're trying to decide if [60:59] it's right for you. We don't try to [61:01] think of our intimate and our familial [61:02] relationships as sales models. So our [61:05] guard is not up in the same way, and yet [61:07] the same tactics are being brought, and [61:09] we're sort of bargaining on things that [61:11] are matters of the heart and matters of [61:13] closeness and compassion. So it's Again, [61:15] the narcissistic person is so skilled at [61:19] leaving the other person feeling that [61:21] the thing they sacrificed or gave up was [61:24] in their best interest and and [61:26] ultimately the narcissistic person is so [61:28] self-centered that anything that they're [61:30] trying to do is going to serve them. [61:32] Projection. I've heard this phrase used [61:34] a few times like he's projecting onto [61:36] you or she's projecting. [61:38] In the context of narcissism, what is [61:40] projection? Mhm. So, projection [61:42] is is a primitive defense that any of us [61:44] can use and we do use. All of us engage [61:46] in projection. We engage in projection [61:49] when some of that uncomfortable [61:50] unconscious stuff inside of us is [61:52] getting activated. It's often shame [61:54] oriented and then we'll accuse someone [61:56] of something that we're actually feeling [61:58] like an uncomfortable feeling. That's [61:59] projection. We all do [62:00] Give me an example. Um How you might [62:02] project onto me? [62:03] Okay, we're in a we're in a relationship [62:07] and I'll say something like who you [62:09] texting Steven? Like why what do you [62:10] like [62:11] Okay, so shady. Like you know, why don't [62:13] you show your show me your phone? Like [62:15] what Oh my gosh Steven like what the [62:16] hell you need so many you need so all [62:18] the girls to like you, don't you? Like [62:20] that's what you're all you're about. [62:22] Show me your phone. Show me your phone. [62:23] Show me your phone now. [62:26] I guess who's got a side piece. That [62:28] would be me. Oh, really? Oh. [62:32] There's a life hack for you, Steven. [62:34] Okay, so you're you're insecure because [62:36] you know that you're sneaking [62:37] Not insecure. [62:38] I mean I'm doing a bad thing. [62:40] Are you still pretending? [62:42] No, [62:43] I am no longer [62:44] Okay, [62:45] okay, we're over. So, we're done. That's [62:47] because you cheated on me even though [62:48] you didn't but it was me. But now I can [62:50] go be with my new guy. Okay. So, but [62:53] it's I'm giving you like such a low [62:55] hanging fruit example. It's anytime we [62:57] might accuse someone of lying when we're [62:59] lying. We may accuse somebody of even [63:02] being insecure when we're the one [63:03] feeling insecure, right? We'll accuse [63:05] someone of being uncomfortable when [63:06] we're the one [63:07] who's feeling uncomfortable. And all of [63:09] us have different stuff we project about [63:11] cuz all of us have different sort of [63:12] psychodynamic histories, right? Well, [63:14] narcissistic people do this all the [63:15] time. Let me give you sort of a sense of [63:17] what the inner psychological apparatus [63:19] of a nice a narcissistic person looks [63:21] like. Despite all the shiny, [63:23] charismatic, charming, arrogant, [63:25] grandiose stuff on the outside, what's [63:28] in them is at the best I can describe it [63:30] is a volcano, right? And that volcano, [63:33] the magma and the gases and the lava, is [63:36] shame and it's insecurity. Well, that's [63:38] not very perfect-looking, is it? So, all [63:41] these defenses, the grandiosity and the [63:43] arrogance and the charm and all the rest [63:44] of it, is like a manhole cover, a big [63:47] manhole cover that covers the volcano. [63:50] So, all that insecurity doesn't exist. [63:52] I'm I'm just the smartest person you [63:54] know, right? So, they get to show up as [63:56] perfect, as extraordinary. [63:59] But, things can kick that manhole cover [64:02] off. [64:03] Criticism, negative feedback, their [64:05] friend doing better than them, their new [64:08] venture not succeeding, um them not [64:10] getting something that they wanted, some [64:12] form of frustration. Well, that means [64:13] they're not perfect. The manhole cover [64:15] gets nudged. The gases and the lava ooze [64:18] out. And what does that look like? It [64:20] looks like anger, it looks like [64:22] projection. You accuse the other. And [64:25] this happens to them 20 times a day, cuz [64:27] nobody lives a perfect life. We get [64:29] disappointed all the time. There's [64:30] traffic on the freeway. There we had to [64:32] wait for the elevator. They People at [64:35] the coffee shop screwed up our order. [64:37] Our Our public offering didn't go well. [64:39] Could be big things, it could be small [64:40] things. It doesn't matter. But, each [64:43] time the manhole cover gets nudged, that [64:45] grandiose exterior gets tinged, and they [64:48] poom, they explode on others. And that [64:51] often looks like projection. And that [64:52] projection allows them to maintain that [64:55] idealized interior. [64:57] Can they take feedback, narcissists? [65:00] Like, do they listen to the Do they No. [65:02] They could they can't take feedback. [65:04] don't They They cannot. The only time a [65:06] narcissistic person may may tiny bit [65:10] listen to feedback is if it comes from [65:12] somebody with much, much more power than [65:14] them. Because narcissistic people are [65:16] very hierarchical climbing creatures, [65:19] right? So, let's say they're getting at [65:21] the CEO's up here, and they're some sort [65:23] of VP level person here. They admire the [65:26] CEO. The CEO's giving them feedback. [65:29] They will listen because they want to be [65:32] him. They want to be with him. They want [65:34] to be next to or her or them, whoever [65:36] the CEO is, right? [65:38] But I So, they may get some of it, but [65:40] they're still going to hear it as [65:43] I am a [65:44] They'll be this [65:46] noise that's blocking them out from [65:47] hearing all of it. [65:48] So, it might be compliance [65:50] as a means to an end versus them [65:52] actually going, "Oh, okay." [65:53] Oh, no, yeah. They're not integrating it [65:54] into They're They're just sort of And [65:56] they might even think like, "God, this [65:57] person's such a dick. [65:59] I I I could do that job so much better. [66:01] They're so lucky they got there. I'm [66:03] going to get there." But they They [66:05] again, they also envy this person. So, [66:07] they are listening, but like you said, [66:09] it is exactly what you said. It's [66:10] compliance versus the sense of let me [66:12] listen to this. And I can promise you [66:14] what this person's going to do if [66:15] they're in a relationship, they're going [66:17] to go home and rage at their partner [66:19] because they had to have that feedback [66:20] session. They're going to find a more [66:22] vulnerable target cuz they can't attack [66:24] that CEO, and they'll go and find [66:26] someone else to rage at. A partner, a [66:27] person on the subway train, a family [66:29] member, friend, someone else. I heard [66:32] this word gaslighting. Again, it's a [66:33] word I've heard a lot, but I I'm not [66:35] necessarily really clear on what the [66:36] definition of gaslighting is, but [66:38] from reading your work, I hear that [66:40] narcissists gaslight people a lot. [66:42] A lot, right. [66:43] What is gaslighting? [66:43] So, gaslighting [66:45] At its simplest, it's a power play. It's [66:46] a form of emotional abuse, and it's a [66:48] tactic. Gaslighting is predicated on a [66:51] relationship that's ostensibly [66:53] characterized by trust. So, that's why [66:56] strangers can't gaslight you in the same [66:57] way as an intimate partner, a trusted [67:00] colleague, a family member, even a [67:02] person with expertise like an attorney [67:04] or a physician could gaslight you. Like [67:06] cuz there's a there's a presumption of [67:08] trust. So, you're going to listen to the [67:10] gaslighter. [67:11] Initially, what the gaslighter will do [67:13] is they will doubt the gaslighted [67:15] person's [67:17] perceptions, experiences, memories, even [67:20] reality. That never happened. I never [67:22] said that. You're making that up. That [67:25] you're We never went there. So, now this [67:28] person's a little confused. Because [67:30] their reality is saying, you know, we [67:32] did. Yeah, we did. So, initially, a [67:35] person will fight back against the [67:36] gaslighter. They'll say, "We absolutely [67:38] went there. Do you want me to show you [67:40] the pictures on my phone?" [67:42] Then we go to the next step of [67:43] gaslighting. [67:45] The gaslighter doesn't want to see the [67:46] pictures on your phone. They just want [67:47] to overpower you. This isn't about [67:49] evidence. This is about them [67:51] overpowering you. So, they'll say, [67:52] "Look, here's the pictures on my phone." [67:54] And then, the gaslighter won't say, [67:56] "Well, you're right. We did go there." [67:58] Instead, they'll say, "Oh my gosh, you [68:00] are the most petty human being I've ever [68:02] met. Is this what it is? You're just [68:04] going to go through your your phone to [68:06] find the pictures to prove something to [68:08] me? Is that what this relationship is? I [68:10] don't know that I want to even be in a [68:12] relationship like this." Now, this poor [68:13] person who's being gaslighted is [68:14] thinking, [68:15] "I just showed them the pictures to [68:17] prove a point, and now I'm the bad one." [68:20] And so, they're and they trust this [68:21] person. So, they think, "Well, maybe I [68:23] am doing something bad. Maybe I am being [68:25] petty." But gaslighting doesn't happen [68:27] once. It happens over and over and over [68:31] again. It's an indoctrination process [68:33] that leaves the gaslighted person [68:35] utterly confused, completely out of [68:38] their mind, doubting themselves, and [68:40] they start to believe the critiques that [68:43] the gaslighter will tell them things [68:44] like, "You're crazy. You're stupid. You [68:47] don't remember things right. Maybe you [68:48] have dementia. Do you think you should [68:49] be in therapy? You might need to be on [68:51] medication." Like, by the time the [68:52] gaslighter's done with someone, they [68:54] have lost all sense of They don't They [68:56] don't trust themselves at all. And so, [68:58] if they don't leave the relationship, [69:00] and some people don't, they are then [69:02] sort of in this again, this form of [69:04] servitude with the narcissistic person, [69:06] a gaslighting person, almost relying on [69:09] them to lead them through reality. So, [69:11] it's almost like utter submission at [69:12] that point. That they get the the [69:14] gaslighter gets to dictate reality. And [69:16] then, over time there's there's this [69:19] there's this tactic that narcissistic [69:21] and other abusive people use called [69:23] DARVO. [69:25] DARVO stands for deny, [69:27] attack, [69:28] reverse victim and offender. It's a [69:31] construct that was developed by Dr. [69:32] Jennifer Freid. Deny, [69:35] attack, [69:36] reverse victim and offender. So, [69:40] what the narcissistic person will in a [69:42] very skilled, I mean, in a [69:44] cruelly skillful way do is [69:48] if the person, the gaslighted person, [69:50] ever attempts to push back on something [69:53] that the narcissist has done done. Like, [69:56] you came you said you were going to be [69:57] home by 9:00 last night, you didn't get [69:58] home till 1:00 in the morning. [70:01] The narcissistic person will deny it and [70:02] say, "That's not true. I came I yeah, I [70:05] didn't get home at 9:00, but I didn't [70:06] come home at 1:00 in the morning. But [70:08] again, like what is your problem? Like, [70:10] what do you do? Like, you read the ADT [70:11] guide all day to see what time I come in [70:13] the door? And you know what? Like, I [70:15] can't believe that this is my life. I [70:18] work so hard to keep us in this fabulous [70:21] house. I work so hard so you can stay [70:23] home, and I'm the bad guy? Like, I can't [70:27] even believe that this is the issue. [70:28] Like, you put me through so much." [70:30] Reverse victim and offender. [70:32] He was out till 1:00 in the morning, and [70:33] he knows it. [70:35] But now he's shut down the conversation. [70:37] It is an insidious dynamic, because done [70:41] enough, you literally strip another [70:44] person of their reality, and that is [70:46] unacceptable to me. That's absolute [70:48] abuse. Do you see this a lot? All the [70:50] time. [70:51] All the time. It is the dynamic that [70:53] once it had name to it, when When word [70:55] is used right, most people use this word [70:57] wrong. That whole process I described is [70:59] gaslighting. When the word is used [71:01] correctly, it's powerful. It captures a [71:04] unique interpersonal dynamic that really [71:08] eats people from the inside out. I hear [71:09] I see it all the time. [71:11] From by family members, by partners, in [71:14] the workplace, you name it. And it [71:17] really messes people up because they [71:19] they feel like they've lost their minds [71:20] and they feel like they can't trust [71:22] themselves. And I think that's a [71:23] terrible thing to do to someone. [71:26] What should you do if you're being [71:27] gaslit? [71:29] When you know what it is and someone [71:31] starts to gaslight you, they literally [71:33] deny your reality, right? You have to [71:36] take a step back and say, [71:38] "That's not what happened." But you [71:39] don't say it to them. The importance [71:41] with gaslighting is you don't engage [71:43] with the gaslighter. You now know you're [71:45] being gaslighted, which means [71:48] the other person in that interaction [71:50] has the capacity to gaslight you. So, [71:53] what that means is from your side, you [71:55] need to shut it down. And that means no [71:58] longer engaging. Does that make So, that [72:00] you cannot keep engaging with them cuz [72:02] they're going to pull you down. Further [72:03] and further. [72:04] Yeah, they're going to It's almost like [72:05] they're going to pull you down into into [72:07] being drowned or pull you into the [72:08] quicksand. So, when they start [72:10] gaslighting, "I never said that." [72:13] One playback could be, [72:15] "We're having a different experience [72:16] then." [72:17] And leave it at that. [72:19] Don't go down that slippery slope. [72:20] Don't go down the slip. Don't say Don't [72:22] show them the text message. Don't pull [72:24] out the email. Don't try to prove them [72:27] wrong. Don't engage with them. It's It's [72:29] funny you're asking me this cuz I was [72:31] recently gaslighted. I was in a [72:33] relatively recently in a professional [72:34] situation. [72:36] And I'm thinking, "Not me." Like I don't [72:38] know much, but I know this. So, don't [72:40] But they did. I was. [72:42] And [72:43] I got very upset. And in this particular [72:46] situation, it was actually I understand [72:48] why I got It was like Think of it as a [72:50] corporate structure that was gaslighting [72:52] me. So, sometimes very nice people who [72:54] work in corporate systems gaslight cuz [72:57] they're trying to prop up the narcissism [72:58] of the corporation, but they're decent [73:00] human beings. So, it was very clear to [73:02] me. I've seen that happen. But, in this [73:03] particular case, I was being gaslighted. [73:05] I got upset though, knowing all I know, [73:08] knowing all the tactics, [73:10] it's very dehumanizing to have your [73:13] reality completely doubted. And so, I I [73:16] did feel a sense of upset, but I [73:19] confronted the person [73:21] and it's not okay. And I know you're [73:24] better than this. [73:25] And they were happen to be This was a [73:26] lucky case with the the the gaslighter [73:28] was not narcissistic. [73:30] So, we came to a conclusion. But, when [73:32] I've been gaslighted by narcissistic [73:35] people, [73:37] I just disengage. [73:38] And I file it away and say this person [73:40] is capable of this. This this this [73:42] There's really not much juice here. I [73:43] don't This can only go so deep. [73:47] Controlling behavior. Emotionally but [73:50] also [73:51] I guess physically controlling behavior. [73:53] When we when we often think about [73:54] narcissists, we think of like sort of [73:55] domestic violence and this kind of [73:57] thing. Is that quite typical of a [73:59] narcissist to engage in domestic [74:01] violence? [74:01] So, here's where we get to an [74:02] interesting question. You're from the UK [74:04] and I have to say actually of all the [74:05] countries in the world, the UK actually [74:07] has had has taken the front I think that [74:11] the the highest front position in terms [74:13] of being very creating public policies [74:16] around understanding the psychological [74:19] elements of domestic violence. [74:21] It was actually a coercive control laws [74:23] first showed up in the UK. So, [74:25] this is my personal belief, Stephen, and [74:26] this is my personal belief and I will [74:28] hold to this personal belief 100%. I [74:31] believe all domestic abusers are [74:32] narcissistic without exception. And I'll [74:35] tell you why I think that. The capacity [74:37] to tell someone, "I love you. [74:40] I'm going to care for you. We're in a [74:42] relationship." [74:44] And then to emotionally, physically, or [74:47] sexually assault them? [74:49] That's That's zero empathy. [74:51] That's tremendous entitlement. It's [74:54] incredible arrogance. [74:56] That's narcissism. [74:58] There's a lack of self-awareness. [75:00] There's a lack of awareness of the [75:02] other. And I think this is why so much [75:05] of the domestic violence intervention [75:07] programs, they don't work. [75:09] Because how are you going to undo [75:10] someone's narcissism? [75:13] So, that's my belief. And I know that [75:15] this has been a This is very [75:16] controversial conversation in the field [75:19] of domestic violence. Back in the '70s, [75:21] there was a real pushback on this. I [75:22] don't think that anyone who does [75:24] domestic violence work will ever doubt [75:26] that there's a personality issue in [75:28] these folks. But the concern was if we [75:30] made it about narcissism, we'll pull the [75:32] focus away from their behavior, right? [75:34] But I think the two things go together. [75:36] The behavior is unacceptable. I don't [75:38] give a damn if they're narcissistic. And [75:41] this whole idea of does the narcissism [75:43] excuse the behavior? Never. If behavior [75:46] is unacceptable, it's unacceptable. I [75:48] don't care about the backstory because [75:50] it means it's going to happen again, and [75:52] it always does. [75:55] Narcissism in work. [75:57] How do I know if my boss, or my manager, [75:59] or my CEO is a narcissist? [76:02] And what should I do about it? Do I quit [76:03] the job? [76:04] So, if you believe that someone you [76:06] report to, a manager, a boss, or someone [76:08] like that in a job is narcissistic, [76:11] you're going to feel it in the sense of [76:12] you don't feel seen, you don't feel [76:14] valued, you feel like the workplace is [76:16] unpredictable, you feel like it's [76:18] unfair, that it's inequitable. You might [76:21] even feel that it's psychologically [76:22] unsafe. You might feel that the way [76:25] people are praised and get credit for [76:27] their work. Again, it doesn't have rhyme [76:29] or reason. It is inequitable. There [76:30] might be a very There might be a lot of [76:31] gossip in the workplace. Those are the [76:34] things that would suggest a workplace is [76:36] not You have You might be working for [76:38] someone who's narcissistic. It's a tough [76:40] one. It it A lot of this might depend on [76:42] the nature of your organization. I [76:43] always tell people if you suspect that [76:46] your boss or manager or someone you [76:48] report to is narcissistic, start [76:50] documenting the hell out of it because [76:52] the one thing HR doesn't care is you you [76:54] cannot roll up to an HR office and say, [76:56] I think my manager is narcissistic. [76:58] You're going to need documentation, [76:59] which means saving emails and text [77:01] messages and voicemails and meetings [77:04] meet minutes of meetings and you know, [77:07] you you're going to need as much [77:09] information try to avoid meetings alone. [77:11] All that stuff to have that sort of [77:13] evidence base. [77:15] If you're in a large enough company [77:16] where you might be able to switch to [77:18] work under someone else's management, [77:19] especially if you still believe in the [77:20] company. Some people might say, I love [77:21] the organization. I can't stand working [77:24] with this person. They may find that [77:26] working with someone else will allow [77:28] them to preserve in the institution. But [77:30] in a smaller employer or where that is [77:32] not possible, some people might try to [77:34] stick it out the best they can, but [77:36] documenting is not going to make it [77:37] easier. So, some people will find that [77:40] ultimately if they can't outlast the [77:41] narcissistic boss or manager, which they [77:43] often can't, they will look for other [77:45] employment. Some people also find a lot [77:48] of solace in collaboration. So, just [77:50] because you work for a narcissistic [77:52] manager doesn't mean your colleagues are [77:53] narcissistic and there's some [77:54] interesting research suggesting that [77:56] some really [77:58] powerful collaborative relationships can [78:00] come when the leadership is [78:01] narcissistic, but the the teams actually [78:04] come together even stronger. It's almost [78:06] like they're united against a common [78:08] enemy. [78:09] I want to make sure I've given enough [78:10] advice to someone who is currently [78:12] dealing with a narcissist. [78:15] All of the things that you've said to [78:16] them ring true. They they can relate to [78:19] everything you've said. [78:22] Are you telling them to get out of that [78:24] situation? No. And it's something that's [78:26] very, very important to me is that [78:28] people don't feel compelled that they [78:29] have to get out cuz they can't always [78:31] get out. And I think if we sit if we put [78:33] that forth as the only pathway, then [78:35] people who can't get out might say, then [78:37] now what? I'm just supposed to sit here [78:39] and suffer?" And the answer to that's [78:40] no. [78:42] In in my in my book, what I talk about [78:44] is this idea, if you're going to if [78:46] you're going to stay in a relationship [78:47] like this, right? For whatever reason. [78:49] Could be a family member and you you [78:51] don't you still don't want to fully walk [78:53] away from your family of origin. Could [78:55] be a long-term marriage and you've got [78:56] minor children or there's financial or [78:58] cultural reasons. It might be a job [79:00] you've had for a long time and you're [79:02] not financially in a position to step [79:03] away from it. It might be a friend [79:06] you've had a long time. Your reasons are [79:08] yours. And so I always say to people, [79:10] you must never feel pressure unless it's [79:13] dangerous. Let's take dangerousness out [79:15] of the equation, right? [79:17] You don't feel compelled to do what [79:18] people say. It's going to be harder if [79:20] you stay. It is going to be harder cuz [79:21] you're still being exposed to their [79:23] manipulative, invalidating, unkind, [79:27] unsettling, destabilizing behavior. [79:29] However, the first step, the key step, [79:32] is what I call radical acceptance. This [79:34] is not going to change. This is it. [79:37] There is going to be no someday better. [79:38] It's not going to get better when he [79:39] gets a promotion. It's not going to get [79:41] better for her when the kids grow up. [79:43] Your mom's not going to get soften with [79:44] age. This is it, folks. You now know [79:48] what this looks like. It is not going to [79:50] change substantially. Their behavior's [79:51] not going to change substantially. So if [79:53] you're going to stay in it, [79:55] your workarounds [79:57] are going to be based on knowing that. [79:58] You have to have very realistic [79:59] expectations. Now what happens though is [80:02] when people initially have this level of [80:04] radical acceptance, they have a [80:05] tremendous amount of grief because a lot [80:07] of hope was keeping them going. I [80:09] thought it was going to get better [80:10] someday. I thought maybe that someday [80:12] would come. [80:14] The staying means that someday's not [80:16] going to come. [80:17] And so that means that you're not as [80:19] Once you radically accept, you're not as [80:21] surprised by their behavior cuz a lot of [80:23] people get exhausted from the number of [80:25] times over years or decades. They're [80:26] like, "I can't believe they did that. I [80:30] can't believe they did" it. like, "Can [80:32] we just stop that part and say, of [80:34] course you believe they did it. In fact, [80:35] we could have set a clock by the idea [80:38] that they would have done it, by the [80:39] fact they would have done it. That's a [80:41] big piece of this, but the grief of [80:42] letting go of what you wanted these [80:44] things to be, that's its own process and [80:47] grief takes time. [80:48] But, you know, as you come around [80:50] through that, as you come around the [80:52] bend on that, and you really do [80:53] radically accept, you need some tools. [80:55] And probably the biggest tool of all is [80:58] social connection with people who are [81:00] healthy, empathic, attuned, responsive, [81:05] compassionate, and respectful. Whether [81:07] that means you may you might have [81:09] friends who already are this for you. It [81:11] might be enhanced by getting into [81:12] therapy. You might join a support group. [81:15] You might meet friends at work. There's [81:18] many ways you might try to do this, but [81:20] you're going to need it. Cuz if you're [81:21] going to stay, you're going to need [81:23] spaces where you're not gaslighted. [81:25] You're going to need spaces where you [81:26] are seen, where you are valued, where [81:28] you are cherished. That becomes the [81:31] pathway to surviving. And then, it [81:33] doesn't feel good to feel like you're in [81:35] a marriage where you're phoning it in [81:36] for the rest of your life, but you know, [81:38] people [81:39] people say that now that I'm not as [81:40] surprised by their behavior, it's a [81:42] little more bearable. I've constructed a [81:44] rich life almost around this marriage, [81:47] and I just sort of, you know, view that [81:49] as sort of the kind of annoyance at the [81:51] side of the room that it is. Some people [81:52] say, I happen to adore my [81:56] my sister, but I can't stand my [81:58] narcissistic parents, and you know, I so [82:00] but I'm going to stay in touch with them [82:02] so I can also have the family gatherings [82:05] that matter to my sister, but I no [82:07] longer have conversations with my [82:09] mother. Or, one person I know said she [82:11] would regularly visit a narcissistic [82:13] father cuz nobody else would give him [82:15] the time of day, and he he needed a [82:17] little bit of assistance. She said, I'd [82:18] set a timer. 90 minutes max. Once the 90 [82:21] minutes rang out, I'd say, well, I've [82:22] got to jump. He'd always yell at her. [82:23] She said, but better to yell at 90 [82:25] minutes than at 3 hours. Either way, he [82:27] was going to yell. So, people get into [82:29] the space of accepting what this is and [82:31] its limitations. Some people over time [82:33] may still decide to leave, but not at [82:35] that moment. But, staying and not [82:37] radically accepting it will destroy you. [82:40] Can you be happy in a relationship with [82:42] a narcissist, do you think? [82:44] You can be happy, but not with the [82:46] relationship. So, you don't think you [82:47] can be happy with the relationship? [82:49] think so. No. I I think you can see it [82:51] with its limitations and I think you [82:53] know I've met people who said who have [82:55] told me everything about narcissistic [82:58] um partners who said [83:00] they happen to be able to do this one [83:01] sex thing I love, and so that's just I [83:04] mean all the rest of it's awful. We [83:05] can't end any how, so we do the sex [83:08] thing and it works for me. Um some [83:10] people will say, "We both love watching [83:13] period dramas and that's they're my [83:15] person to do period dramas with." [83:17] Someone else said, "We're [83:18] we're obsessive about collecting antique [83:21] fountain pens and I really can't stand [83:23] spending time with them, but we get [83:24] excited when we find a new pen." Someone [83:26] else said, "He's a hell of a Scrabble [83:27] player." You find the one or two things [83:30] that work for you. Is it happy? I mean, [83:31] again, we're getting back into [83:32] philosophy there. That's the sense of [83:34] it, you know, what what's happy? On that [83:36] point of sex, are narcissists better in [83:38] bed? Depends on what you call better. I [83:40] actually just recently did a big piece [83:42] in USA Today on this that I'd been [83:44] interviewed for. [83:45] They are very performative lovers. They [83:48] are as you can imagine they like they [83:50] they they almost want applause after the [83:51] sex act, right? Because they need [83:53] admiration and validation. So, they [83:55] actually can be rather invested in [83:56] getting a partner off because they want [83:58] to be told, "Oh my gosh, you're the best [83:59] lover ever." They might want to be very [84:01] like mirrory sex so they can see their [84:04] body or your body cuz it's all again [84:06] very performative. But, some [84:07] narcissistic folks are very selfish [84:10] lovers. The sex can be a little bit [84:11] porny. Like it's a bit, you know, like a [84:14] bit over the top and like I said, it [84:15] feels performative. And um but, for some [84:19] people where it gets into dangerous [84:20] waters is when people are in [84:22] narcissistic relationships and they feel [84:24] like they're having sex just to go along [84:26] just to keep the trains of the [84:27] relationship going along and that's a [84:28] very un healthy precedent. So, it can be [84:31] on a spectrum from sort of ridiculous [84:34] performative sex to maybe they're [84:35] skilled and they want to sort of show [84:37] off, but then they're like a little [84:38] 6-year-old who wants to get a lollipop [84:40] for having done a good whatever on you [84:42] and then all the way up to stuff that [84:44] feels almost coercive. Superman has [84:47] kryptonite and in the context of the [84:48] Superman story, kryptonite is the thing [84:51] that [84:52] he's kind of allergic to. The thing that [84:54] kind of, you know, defeats his very [84:56] strong set of powers. For a narcissist, [84:59] what is their kryptonite? What is the [85:01] thing that [85:03] you know, makes them fall to their knees [85:04] and that they run from but when they see [85:06] it in a person, a trait maybe? [85:09] I think that for a narcissistic person, [85:11] there's a couple of ways kryptonite can [85:13] show up. I think that the kryptonite [85:15] that we could bring into it is not [85:17] engaging with them anymore, right? Not [85:18] giving them the satisfaction of the [85:20] fight, not getting into the mud with [85:21] them, but we have to be strong in the [85:23] face of that because they are going to [85:24] want the fight. So, they're going to [85:25] push and they're going to push and [85:26] they're going to push and push and try [85:28] to poke us and make us take the fight [85:30] cuz they're really good at fighting. [85:31] Another thing that's kryptonite for a [85:33] narcissistic person is a person who's [85:35] much, much more powerful than them cuz [85:38] they they do feel they sort of feel [85:39] cowed by them. So, if they meet I guess [85:41] I said they gave you the example of the [85:43] sort of middle-level narcissistic person [85:45] working in a large organization and then [85:47] they meet the big CEO and it's really, [85:50] really great if you had one of those [85:51] empathic CEOs and then the narcissistic [85:54] person who's almost trying to get into [85:55] the good books with this empathic CEO [85:58] and all their usual tricks aren't [85:59] working, that would definitely be a bit [86:01] of be a bit of kryptonite too that the [86:03] very person that they envy wants them to [86:06] be sort of warm and fuzzy and all the [86:08] things that they have contempt for. But, [86:10] I have to say not engaging with a [86:12] narcissistic person is the ultimate [86:14] kryptonite and not sort of oohing and [86:16] ahing. Narcissistic people are very used [86:18] to people owing and owing over them. [86:21] What about authenticity? [86:23] I saw you talk about that once that they [86:25] don't like people that are authentic. [86:27] They feel threatened by people who are [86:28] authentic. So and to show up as your [86:31] authentic self in a narcissistic [86:33] relationship can actually be I'm going [86:35] to say dangerous. I put dangerous in [86:36] quotes. It's not like they're going to [86:37] beat you up, but they're not going to [86:39] have it, right? Your true self, your [86:41] authentic self, they're going to mock [86:43] it, they're going to have contempt for [86:45] it. They're going to if if you're not [86:48] solid in that authentic identity, [86:50] they're going to attempt to dismantle [86:51] it, which is why many people struggle. [86:53] If they don't know they're dealing with [86:54] a narcissistic person, they may struggle [86:56] with authenticity in a narcissistic [86:58] relationship because it gets dismantled. [87:00] It's hard enough for us to get to [87:01] authenticity. If somebody wants to [87:03] dismantle it, especially when we were [87:04] younger, I think authenticity, the odds [87:06] of it happening grow with age. It's It's [87:09] hard to be a young authentic person, but [87:11] if you remain solid in your authentic [87:14] identity around the narcissistic person, [87:17] they'll actually probably get bored and [87:18] leave, which is always the hope, right? [87:20] They may ramp up for a little while, but [87:22] then you're just not an interesting [87:24] target to them anymore. So then they'll [87:25] sort of slowly lose interest and walk [87:27] away. Famous narcissists. Oh, what what [87:31] what famous people are [87:33] Oh, [ __ ] You think all famous people [87:34] are? I don't think all are, but I think [87:36] a lot are because the quest for fame is [87:38] a very narcissistically driven interest, [87:40] right? So I think most normal people [87:42] don't want to be famous. They really [87:43] don't. If you talk to average person, do [87:46] you want to be famous? They'd be hell [87:47] no. I want to be able to go to the [87:49] grocery store and have no one know who I [87:51] am. I want to be able to live my life [87:52] without being recognized. So I think we [87:55] talk famous people, you're saying that [87:56] is it one in five one in six seems like [87:59] a lot. I'd say famous people were at 40 [88:01] to 50%. [88:02] 40 to 50% of famous people are [88:04] narcissists. [88:04] I do. I really think it's a coin flip. [88:06] What about world leaders? [88:08] Now we're we might be closer to 60 to [88:10] 70%. I mean, think of what you're [88:12] signing up for. [88:13] Yeah, it's crazy. need to run a country. [88:16] I believe I can run a country. And you [88:18] know what? There's We have in over [88:21] history had some good people do that. [88:23] But when you look at the circus politics [88:25] has become, which is performative and [88:28] ridiculous and bombastic and cruel and [88:32] critical and manipulative, I don't see [88:34] how someone non-narcissistic could ever [88:36] win at that game. Why do we vote for [88:37] narcissists? Why do we put them into [88:39] power? Well, I mean, I think that we we [88:41] we're still we still do what I call we [88:44] or many of us call we still fawn in [88:46] their in their in the face of their [88:48] charisma. I think we believe somebody [88:50] who walks around thinking that they're [88:51] all that, that they actually have the [88:53] goods. [88:54] I still think we fall for the circus [88:56] barker. We fall for the person who is [88:58] who is sort of selling the story. We we [89:01] we vote for them. We choose them. And I [89:03] think we want You know, this is the best [89:05] example I can give you, Steven. When we [89:07] go to a magic show, right? I don't know [89:08] if you've ever been to a magic show. [89:10] This place called the Magic Castle in [89:11] LA. You should You should try to go [89:13] sometime because I find it intriguing. [89:15] But when you go There's don't There's no [89:17] such thing as magic. It's all slight of [89:18] hand, right? [89:20] But for a moment we I don't want them to [89:22] show me the trick. I want to be lost in [89:24] the magic. And most of us most of us, [89:26] not all, I think some people want to [89:27] know how the trick is done. [89:28] But once we're shown how the trick is [89:30] done, the magic's gone. Now it's just [89:32] right It's It's It's dexterity, right? [89:34] Mhm. Most people don't want to know how [89:37] the trick is done. We want to believe in [89:39] magic. And that's why narcissistic [89:41] people don't get called out because [89:43] there's something about them. There's [89:44] something that feels [89:46] that you know, they there's a confidence [89:48] they breed because they have so much [89:49] conviction, but it's misplaced [89:51] conviction. It's not conviction backed [89:53] by facts or integrity. It's just They [89:55] just believe it cuz they think it's true [89:57] and it's going to forward their cause. [89:58] So It becomes a self-fulfilling [90:00] Exactly. But we believe Most of us don't [90:02] have that kind of conviction. We doubt [90:04] ourselves. We question ourselves. And so [90:06] when someone comes in with absolute 100% [90:09] I wanted to bang my hand but I didn't [90:11] 100% conviction, we're like, "Wow, then [90:14] they must really know what they're [90:15] talking about. Leaders have conviction." [90:17] But, in fact, when we see a leader who's [90:19] circumspect, who might say, "Well, give [90:21] me a minute. I want to weigh both sides [90:23] of this." Those leaders are often viewed [90:25] as more weak-minded and are less likely [90:28] often to get the vote. If our adversary [90:31] in another country is a narcissist, you [90:32] know, like a Putin or an Kim Jong-un, [90:36] whatever he's called. Um [90:38] would we rather our leader that's [90:39] against him be a narcissist as well? [90:42] That's a fantastic question. Do we want [90:44] a narcissist fighting a narcissist? [90:46] I would say that [90:48] the problem with a narcissist fighting a [90:50] narcissist is they lose track of what is [90:53] good for their people. Mhm. So, they [90:56] could drag them into a conflict or a [90:57] problem that could harm the populace [91:00] economically, physically, battles, wars, [91:03] the whole nine yards, right? [91:05] And that's what a narcissistic person is [91:07] more likely to do cuz they can't be the [91:09] smaller one in the fight. It's all about [91:10] It's two egos fighting each other. They [91:12] can't just say, "Okay." No. But, an [91:15] overly empathic leader might do a little [91:17] bit of saying, "Okay." And then a a [91:19] narcissistic or a psychopathic leader [91:21] will absolutely sort of railroad that [91:23] person. [91:24] That sort of perfect mid-level sort of [91:28] wise [91:29] circumspect [91:31] aware of the needs of the populace [91:34] but [91:35] aware of the psychology of the [91:37] perpetrator is what we want. I have to [91:40] say, if I ran the world, Stephen, and I [91:42] don't not even long shot and I wish I [91:44] was more grandiose cuz it really my [91:45] career would be fire if I was. But, I'm [91:48] not. And so, but I wish what one place I [91:51] wish we really brought more narcissism [91:53] training is into diplomacy. I wish more [91:56] of the diplomats around the planet, [91:58] secretaries of state and UN [92:00] representatives understood narcissism [92:03] because I think a lot of times people [92:05] are making bad deals where a lot of [92:06] people are getting hurt and they're [92:08] trying to negotiate with people you [92:10] cannot negotiate with. Anyone who's ever [92:12] tried to negotiate with a narcissistic [92:15] spouse knows that it's impossible. It's [92:17] no different with a world leader and I [92:19] think a lot of innocent people have been [92:22] incredibly harmed as we diddle around [92:25] and try to negotiate with narcissistic [92:27] world leaders and just simply aren't [92:29] willing to call them out for what they [92:30] are. [92:32] What is the most important thing we [92:33] haven't discussed that we should have [92:35] discussed? I would say the most [92:36] important thing that we've discussed is [92:37] that I don't want people to leave this [92:39] conversation thinking it's all doom and [92:40] gloom. [92:41] People can take themselves back from [92:43] these relationships. This isn't like [92:45] sort of some terrible deterministic [92:47] destiny that I've been through a [92:48] narcissistic relationship so I'm never [92:50] going to be authentic. I think what's [92:52] remarkable is once people learn about [92:54] this and they're taught about this and [92:56] the dynamics of it and they're given [92:58] permission to call abusive behavior what [93:01] it is, they're able to slowly but surely [93:04] start coming back into themselves. No [93:07] longer shaming themselves for having a [93:08] need or a want or a feeling or a hope. [93:11] People do heal and I've seen remarkable [93:14] stories of people coming back from [93:17] familial narcissistic abuse, marital [93:19] narcissistic abuse, long-term committed [93:21] relationship narcissistic abuse, [93:23] workplace narcissistic abuse and out of [93:26] it have come out so much wiser, [93:28] stronger, finally enacting their [93:30] creative selves. I really want people to [93:31] leave this episode knowing all the [93:34] dynamics but that not only is healing [93:36] possible, it happens all the time to [93:39] people but it's work and it's not an [93:40] easy process. [93:43] If you've seen my most recent post on [93:44] LinkedIn, you probably have seen that [93:45] I'm on a bit of a hiring spree at the [93:46] moment across my company Flight Group [93:48] trying to find the world's best talent [93:50] and throughout these years of building [93:51] these businesses, my first port of call [93:53] for hiring has always been LinkedIn Jobs [93:56] who are a proud sponsor of this podcast. [93:58] This is because of two reasons. Number [93:59] one, LinkedIn isn't just another job [94:01] board. It has a vast network of more [94:03] than a billion professionals and quality [94:04] candidates, which I believe makes it the [94:06] best place to find and hire [94:07] professionals you can't find anywhere [94:09] else. And number two, their process and [94:11] features. LinkedIn is constantly finding [94:13] ways to make the hiring process easier [94:15] with super easy and intuitive features. [94:18] Hiring is easy when you have that many [94:20] quality candidates. In fact, 86% of [94:22] small businesses get a qualified [94:24] candidate within 24 hours through [94:26] LinkedIn Jobs. Post your job for free at [94:28] linkedin.com/doac. [94:32] That's linkedin.com/doac [94:35] to post your job for free right now. And [94:38] of course, terms and conditions apply. [94:40] We have a closing tradition where the [94:41] last guest leaves a question for the [94:43] next guest Oh. [94:44] Diary of a CEO, not knowing who they're [94:46] leaving it for. [94:48] The question here that's been left for [94:49] you is, [94:54] which was your darkest day and how did [94:57] you turn the lights on? [95:00] Mhm. [95:05] I was stalked by someone who who [95:07] sexually assaulted me. And um it was a [95:11] sort of this nightmarish collegiate [95:13] experience before you would report these [95:15] things. I'm I'm again, I'm quite a bit [95:16] older than you. And it was it was [95:17] horrific. It was just absolutely [95:19] horrific. And there was I didn't [95:21] understand I talk about not knowing what [95:23] narcissism was. I was it was I was much [95:25] younger. I'm still in my teens, early [95:26] 20s. Um but you that one experience, you [95:30] learn so much about what trauma does to [95:33] us. But I I was it was absolute terror. [95:36] I was being stalked all the time. I [95:38] didn't know what to do. We didn't [95:40] understand this stuff then. We did not [95:42] understand. We did not talk about it. It [95:44] was we didn't have cell phones. It was [95:46] still like we're still back in the these [95:47] dialing phones days. And and the person [95:50] just kept breaking me down, breaking me [95:52] down. I didn't know what I was dealing [95:53] with. I didn't have a lot of self [95:55] self-esteem. I didn't know who to ask. [95:57] And you know, it was sort of and then it [96:00] was yeah, and it was what it was. And so [96:03] probably is what propelled me to want to [96:06] work with people who are doubted by [96:08] systems and who are and to help me want [96:11] to understand trauma. A system that [96:14] doubted you. [96:15] There was nowhere to go with that stuff. [96:17] To this day when women bring um [96:22] reports of sexual assault or abuse on [96:24] college campuses [96:26] they're they're believed they're not [96:28] believed more often than they are [96:29] believed. They're blamed. There wasn't [96:32] even a I didn't even know where to go. I [96:34] didn't know where to take it. I didn't [96:35] know who to tell. It's fine. I mean I I [96:38] when I say it's fine, I like I've done [96:39] the work. I've been [96:41] supported through therapy. [96:43] But you just didn't know [96:45] where to take it. And [96:48] The person who did it? I didn't know [96:50] them well enough at the time. There was [96:51] someone who was sort of peripherally [96:53] known to me. Yes, for sure. I'd say [96:55] vulnerable narcissist actually, which I [96:57] think by far even some ways is is at [96:59] level with the the the danger of the [97:02] malignant narcissistic person. And in [97:04] that time Stephen very frankly like [97:06] doing this work, I don't know what your [97:08] experience has been as a public person, [97:09] but maybe as a woman woman of color it's [97:11] you know, there's a little more risk is [97:13] that I've had people [97:15] say very dangerous things to me in [97:17] online spaces and issue some real [97:20] threats towards me. [97:21] And it all came back at me. In fact, we [97:24] had something like this happened in the [97:25] last few years and it just it flooded [97:27] me. I I'd really compartmentalized that [97:29] piece and it was um [97:32] and it all comes flooding back when when [97:34] you went through something like that [97:35] when you felt again, [97:36] back then it wasn't online stalking. It [97:38] was using phones. It was following you [97:40] places. My things were being stolen. It [97:42] was a lot of gaslighting. My things [97:44] would be stolen and my things would be [97:45] put back so the campus police didn't [97:47] believe me. They'd said, "You said your [97:49] stuff was stolen, but your backpack is [97:51] right there." But the person would take [97:53] my backpack and then put the backpack [97:55] back in its place. [97:56] Can I ask, how did that end? [97:58] Um I left the university. [98:01] Is Is that why you left the university? [98:07] Has that inspired why you were focused [98:09] on working on this subject matter at [98:11] all? No. No, I I I think I'm like most [98:13] people. It's your trauma. I It I don't [98:15] mean to laugh about it, but I [98:16] compartmentalized it, you know, and I'm [98:18] saying like as we mostly dissociate from [98:20] our pain. And so, um Consciously? [98:23] It's uh no, not consciously. I think [98:24] dissociation's a very protective [98:26] mechanism. I think the [98:27] the way the mind and the body work when [98:29] we've gone through trauma. I think the [98:30] body's [98:32] beautiful in how it tries to protect us. [98:34] Um I think the mind is also trying to [98:36] protect us and together, like these [98:39] these are painful things, but the [98:40] problem is them getting pushed away [98:43] actually doesn't do us any favors, if [98:45] you will. You know what I'm saying? And [98:47] so, um but yeah. [98:51] Well, thank you. Thank you for um taking [98:53] the time to write such brilliant, [98:56] important books on a subject that is [98:58] still [99:00] not well known enough. Uh and the way [99:03] that you go about both your videos, your [99:06] content more broadly, but especially [99:07] your books is [99:10] so important because you're giving [99:12] information in a very, very accessible [99:14] way. And information is always and [99:16] awareness is always the first step in [99:17] being able to do something about your [99:19] situation. And there must be so many [99:21] thousands, hundreds of thousands of [99:23] people, millions of people that have [99:26] been exposed to your work. It's [99:28] heightened their awareness, and because [99:30] of that, they've taken a step out of a [99:32] situation that wasn't serving them, that [99:34] was hurting their health and happiness, [99:35] and towards a better place. And that is [99:37] a really remarkable thing. That is a [99:39] really, really remarkable thing. This [99:40] book was [99:41] um I've heard about the word narcissism [99:43] but this new book it's not you [99:46] turn the lights on for me. [99:48] In a really really important way. To be [99:49] honest as well as a CEO as a business [99:52] leader [99:53] it also made me ask myself a lot of [99:55] questions about myself about behavior [99:56] that I have. I don't consider myself to [99:57] be a narcissist but but as I was reading [99:59] about the behaviors of narcissists and [100:01] also the impact that it can have on [100:03] someone I thought [ __ ] hell like [100:05] you know [100:06] it's as you said it's insidious. [100:10] It's insidious [100:11] and we I think I'm right in saying that [100:13] we can all exhibit [100:16] some traits of narcissism sometimes and [100:19] we kind of you know define that as being [100:20] an [ __ ] or whatever. [100:22] And it really made me want to be a [100:24] better person. [100:25] It really really did. Really made me [100:27] want to be a much much better person. So [100:29] thank you for that. Thank you for [100:30] shining a light on this subject matter [100:32] and thank you for all the millions of [100:33] people that you've helped through your [100:34] work. It's really important. [100:34] I love that. I mean I think that that's [100:36] such an interesting take on it that we [100:38] do sometimes do these things that are [100:39] narcissistic but we you know we may not [100:41] even because we are narcissistic but to [100:43] even recalibrate those behaviors. I [100:45] think the the the better we all can be [100:49] the more we're all fortified should [100:51] someone who has these qualities come [100:52] into our life that we don't give up on [100:54] ourselves and I think that that's the [100:56] more good we can sort of create in our [100:58] universes that bad's going to happen [101:00] it's nature of life but we'll be [101:01] stronger in the face of it. So thank [101:03] you. [101:06] I think it was about a year ago I became [101:07] obsessed with sleep to the point that as [101:09] many of you know I pretty much have it [101:11] as a non-negotiable. One of the things [101:13] that I found is a brand called Eight [101:15] Sleep that sponsors this podcast and [101:17] that is the cover that I have on my bed. [101:19] Some of you will know that in order to [101:20] have optimal sleep our bodies need to be [101:22] a certain temperature and there's slight [101:23] variants between all of us. That's [101:25] exactly what Eight Sleep does. It learns [101:48] more energized and more capable to [101:49] pursue our goals. The podcast sponsors [101:51] that I have are brands that I love and [101:53] use, and Eight Sleep is one of them. [101:55] I've had so many technological [101:57] game-changers in my life, and Eight [101:59] Sleep is certainly one of them. Check it [102:00] out at eightsleep.com/steven [102:03] for holiday savings.