Robert Greene Reclaims Life Strategy After Stroke Redefines Mastery

中风重塑精通认知：罗伯特·格林重构人生策略 实现战略成功与个人价值，需要不带幻想地接纳现实，并借助死亡意识将精力聚焦于真正的人生目标。 在这场深度对话中，Robert Greene与Steven Bartlett共同探讨了人类心理、权力动态与自我掌控的本真现实。Greene反思了为何自己的作品常常引发批评者的强烈反应，指出真正的精通取决于真实的技艺而非现代社会的地位，并分享了自己在经历一场险些致命的中风后幸存的切身体会。他详述了直面死亡与践行斯多葛学派的“命运之爱”（amor fati）如何彻底改变了他对人生、人际脆弱性以及即将出版的新书《崇高》（The Sublime）的看法。最终，Greene强调要摒弃自我安慰的幻觉、看清现实本质，并就如何克服绝望、疏离感和情绪化反应提供了战略性智慧。 《权力的48条法则》（The 48 Laws of Power）本质上是一部诊断手册与“防御盾牌”，旨在帮助读者识破他人掩盖的真实意图与社交操纵，而非鼓励不道德的行事手段。 (66:20) 每个人生来都拥有不可复制的独特潜能，真正的精通（Mastery）不在于追求外在的财富、名声或社会地位，而在于深耕自身真实倾向所展现出的工匠精神与自豪感。 (69:25) 在寻求人生转型与重塑自我时，采用切断退路的“背水一战”策略（Death Ground Strategy）并设定略高于现有能力的挑战，能制造出至关重要的行动紧迫感。 (23:08) 直面死亡与人生的有限性能有效驱散琐碎的杂念，结合斯多葛学派“爱命运”（amor fati）的态度，可将身心苦难、突发疾病与逆境转化为淬炼心智的催化剂。 (78:11)

Author Robert Greene argues that navigating human interactions and achieving meaningful work requires confronting reality without illusion, shedding moralistic pretenses, and mastering both internal flaws and external power dynamics. Unmasking Human Nature and Covert Social Dynamics (0:00) Greene asserts that people frequently experience interpersonal distress because they treat social competence as an innate trait rather than an acquired discipline, routinely confusing outward polite masks with underlying reality. To navigate social survival, Greene contends that individuals must accept strategic role-playing and deception as foundational human behaviors derived from our evolutionary ancestors. He identifies three universal self-perceptions that individuals fiercely defend and which must never be openly challenged: the conviction that one is virtuous, intelligent, and autonomous. Because spoken words are easily manipulated, Greene emphasizes that nonverbal communication—such as vocal inflection, eye contact, and split-second micro-expressions observed before polite composure sets in—provides the only reliable measure of true intent. He issues a specific warning against covert, "active envy" and frenemies, who frequently rush into intimacy and offer excessive praise to position themselves close enough to inflict damage, noting that chronic victims driven by internal insecurity inevitably infect their associates with interpersonal chaos. Recreating Identity and Channeling Urgency Through Purpose (16:33) Drawing on principles from his books, Greene warns that professionals often become trapped in identity prisons constructed by early career choices, social convention, and external expectations. He advocates treating personality as malleable clay, citing examples such as neuroscientist Andrew Huberman pivoting from academia to podcasting and Paul Graham combining visual arts with computer programming to create Viaweb. Greene argues that breaking free requires diagnosing internal physical and psychological friction rather than reflexively blaming external circumstances. To execute effective transitions, Greene invokes the "Death Ground Strategy," warning that relying on a Plan B or safety net undermines commitment and produces half-hearted efforts. He argues that discovering an authentic life purpose—anchored in early childhood inclinations—acts as a vital internal radar that clarifies what opportunities to reject, thereby preventing scattered focus. To maintain momentum, Greene recommends artificially engineering urgency through strict deadlines and selecting challenges calibrated slightly above one's existing skill level. Strategic Discipline Versus Emotional Reactivity (101:41) Greene contrasts deliberate strategy with what he characterizes as emotional stupidity, asserting that reactive, undisciplined impulses cause far more historical and personal destruction than calculated malice. He rejects passive virtue signaling, citing community organizer Saul Alinsky to illustrate that achieving meaningful systemic change requires disciplined organization and an understanding of the mechanics of power rather than reliance on moral righteousness alone. To cultivate strategic patience, Greene advises retreating into an internal "citadel" or emotional neutrality when provoked, treating hostile words as irrelevant noise. As a practical exercise in impulse control, he suggests drafting aggressive emails and holding them for a week before deciding whether to send them. Greene applies this critique to modern political parties and corporations, observing that short-term cycles—such as quarterly corporate earnings reports and two-to-four-year elections—prevent long-term vision, leaving leaders locked in reactionary, oppositional postures. Mortality, Physical Limitations, and Amor Fati (78:11) Following a near-fatal stroke triggered by intense stress while writing *The Laws of Human Nature*, high blood pressure, and a severe reaction to a wasp sting compounded by Prednisone, Greene reassessed his view of ambition and time. He clarifies that true mastery does not require global fame or immense wealth like Steve Jobs, pointing instead to an anonymous patio tiler who found deep fulfillment in the precise execution of his craft. Greene incorporates daily meditation on mortality to eliminate petty concerns, applying the Stoic principle of *amor fati*—embracing fate and past suffering as necessary components of personal growth. Facing permanent physical impairments that curtailed former habits like long-distance swimming, Greene spent over four years adapting his working methods to write *The Sublime* through single-handed typing, manual handwriting, and dictation software. He maintains that while external micro-events remain unpredictable, agency resides entirely in how one interprets and responds to life's circumstances. Greene's overarching philosophy rests on confronting human reality as it is—neither inherently noble nor entirely malicious—while exercising rigorous self-control over emotional impulses. The discussion leaves open whether extreme tactics like the "Death Ground Strategy" can be safely applied by average individuals without catastrophic failure, and how to balance relentless creative ambition against severe physical and psychological burnout.

作家罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）在访谈中指出，现代人在技术便捷中普遍存在对人际互动的严重认知盲区；真正的自我掌控与防御能力，始于直面自身内隐的自恋与阴暗冲动，并通过切断退路的破局战略、识破伪善人际博弈与接纳死亡无常，以清醒的现实主义应对生活。 内省认知与人性阴暗面的建设性转化 (0:00) 格林认为，现代社会对智能手机和虚拟互动的依赖，严重退化了共情与非语言线索解读等基础人际能力。多数人误将识人视作本能，且习惯在受挫时归咎外界，却拒绝正视自身根深蒂固的自恋与非理性。格林主张，心理重塑必须始于谦逊承认自身在人际应对上的无能。人们在童年期被家庭与社会规范强行压制的攻击性、嫉妒等“阴暗面”（shadow）并未消失，若长期刻意压抑，终会演变为不可控的愤怒爆发；只有坦诚审视自我缺陷，并将这股原始冲动导向事业野心与良性竞争，才能转化为强大的生产力。 此外，格林强调社交伪装与角色扮演是生存必需的润滑剂，完全的坦率反而会撕裂社交关系。由于语言常带有包装性，个体的真实心理往往只能通过难以伪装的非语言线索显现：例如自恋者或病态人格者的“空洞眼神”、调动整个眼面肌肉的真诚微笑、难以自控的语调起伏，以及在突袭式接近（surprise approach）时无意识浮现的厌烦微表情。看透这些面具不仅能建立防线，亦能避免陷入不必要的自责。 重塑自我与切断退路的“死地战略” (16:33) 针对职场中年常遭遇的身份倦怠，格林援引其著作中的法则建议人们将自身人格视为可塑的黏土，主动重塑自我，而非被动顺应外界期待。他以神经科学家安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）为例：休伯曼早年在斯坦福大学任教时虽前途光明，却因学术政治与体制摩擦深感痛苦；在阅读《精通》（Mastery）后，他毅然辞职转型为科学播客创作者，重新焕发生机。格林特别警示，身心本为一体，长年从事背离内心愿望的工作会转化为无法解释的高血压或慢性疼痛。 在做出重大转向时，格林提出了源自古代兵法的“死地战略”（Death Ground Strategy）。多数人往往在彻底陷入绝境时才肯改变，而保留“退路”往往会导致失败。一项心理学实验显示，当受试者得知自动售货机里备有同款零食时，其解谜任务的表现和坚持度显著下滑；拥有“B计划”会直接削弱对“A计划”的执行强度。格林强调，清晰的人生使命如同一套心理雷达，其最大价值在于赋予个体果断拒绝高薪诱惑与无谓纷扰的魄力，以此集中火力实现跃迁。 感染法则与防御性识别“假朋友”恶意 (61:18) 在人际防御方面，格林阐明了《权力的48条法则》中的“感染法则”（Law of Infection）：极度不安全且习惯制造戏剧性冲突、扮演受害者的个体具有强烈的情绪传染性，与其深度绑定会持续消耗自身心力；相反，强大且自信的能量同样能感染同伴，正如他与说唱歌手50 Cent合作期间所体会到的感染力。在毒性关系中，格林重点剖析了“主动嫉妒”的破坏机制，指出嫉妒是人类甚至灵长类动物与生俱来的天性。 格林指出，心怀恶意的主动嫉妒者常常伪装成“假朋友”（frenemies），其典型特征是急于突破正常社交节奏建立亲密关系，并通过过度的溢美之词掩盖内在敌意。当受害者的社会地位或成就跃升时，这类人往往流露出冷淡或幸灾乐祸（Schadenfreude）。格林反驳了批评者对其著作崇尚阴谋论的道德指责，坚称该书是一面防身盾牌；对于长期生活在残酷环境中的人而言，认清隐藏的权力游戏与伪装规则，是免受欺骗和精神摧残的必要生存工具。 剥离虚荣的精通、中风创伤与命运之爱 (69:25) 在价值实现层面，格林认为尽管现实社会的权力结构天生遵循等级制，但每个人依据自身独特天性追求“精通”的潜能是完全平等的。他指出，患有重度自闭症的动物行为学家坦普尔·格兰丁（Temple Grandin）将自身对动物的直觉转化为全球性畜牧学成就，证明了独特性的力量；而一位对施工工艺倾注全部尊严与热情的地砖工匠，其精神状态丝毫不逊于身处无尽野心漩涡中的史蒂夫·乔布斯。人生的核心危机不是缺乏世俗财富，而是在晚年直面死亡时，发现自己终其一生都在追逐外在标签而背叛了内在的“守护神”（daemon）。 格林结合自身经历分享了对死亡的体悟：他在撰写《人性法则》期间因严重过度劳累，叠加未服降压药及蜂蜇引发的剧烈免疫反应，突发大面积致命性中风。虽然半身受限使原本计划远赴戈壁与深海调研的新书《崇高》（The Sublime）被迫延期并改为单手伏案创作，但他借助斯多葛主义的“命运之爱”（Amor Fati）彻底接纳了这一创伤。格林强调，在不可预测的“蝴蝶效应”面前，人类无法掌控物理境遇，唯一的自主权在于以何种认知框架解读命运并付诸行动。 格林强调其所有思想的核心主线在于剥离人类自欺的道德滤镜，直面世界的客观真实。然而，其倡导的“切断所有退路”的死地战略在现实不确定性中潜藏着巨大的沉没成本风险；同时，将灾难性生理创伤全盘升华为具有必然性的“命运之爱”，究竟是一种行之有效的斯多葛认知韧性，抑或创伤后的心理防御机制，仍有待行动者根据自身处境审慎权衡。

## Background 本期访谈由 YouTube 著名商业访谈频道《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）于 2024 年 3 月 18 日发布。节目邀请了《权力的48条法则》《精通》等畅销书的作者罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene），围绕人性的操控机制、嫉妒心理、自我觉察以及在现代社会中看破社交伪装展开了深入探讨。 ## TL;DR 在长达两小时的深度对话中，罗伯特·格林系统剖析了人类社交中无处不在的面具、谎言以及深植于人性的自恋与嫉妒本能。他指出现代人在数字化隔绝中正在丧失基本的读人本领与共情力，必须正视内心的阴暗面并建立高度的非语言洞察力，以防范“塑料朋友”与自毁型人物的伤害。同时，格林结合自身经历与保罗·格雷厄姆等案例，阐述了打破身份认同牢笼、寻找真实人生使命以及利用紧迫感激发潜能的路径。访谈尾声，格林动情地回顾了中风劫后余生的经历，分享了尼采式的“命运之爱”（Amor Fati）与即将出版的新书《崇高》（The Sublime），告诫大众彻底剥离虚妄幻想，拥抱真实生命的严酷与壮美。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话沉静、厚重且充满穿透力，毫无浮躁的鸡汤说教，而是带有强烈的现实主义哲学底色与解剖刀般的锋利感。格林虽身体受中风后遗症困扰、行动受限，但思维极其澄澈、坦率且毫不掩饰自身的缺陷与脆弱，主持人史蒂芬则以敏锐而谦逊的提问步步深入。从剖析权谋、嫉妒等冷酷现实，到走向生死边缘的顿悟与崇高的爱，整个谈话呈现出一种从现实深渊升华至灵魂平静的动人情感弧光。 ## Bulletin - [40:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2439s) 罗伯特·格林指出人际交往中普遍存在三大自尊幻觉：道德纯洁、智力过人和绝对自主；任何触及或贬低这些幻觉的言行都会立刻招致强烈的敌意与抵触。 - [43:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2610s) 伪装与扮演角色是人类社会文明运转的必要润滑剂，真正出卖内心意图的是难以伪装的非语言信号，如空洞眼神、失控音调以及不足一秒的侧方微表情。 - [23:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1388s) 心理学研究与战略法则表明，退路的存在（如留有后路或B计划）会在潜意识中削弱主目标的执行力；唯有采用“置之死地策略”并设定稍高于能力的挑战，才能激活潜能。 - [01:19:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4747s) 格林在新书《崇高》创作期间因中风导致半身瘫痪，却将被动的身体禁锢转化为“慢火慢炖”的思想淬炼，强调直面死亡的觉知与“命运之爱（Amor Fati）”能赋予生命终极的清醒与活力。 ## Key takeaways - [05:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=317s) 人际洞察力的第一步是放下傲慢，承认自己在处理人际关系上的无知，并向内审视自身的自恋与非理性偏见。 - [10:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=654s) 人性阴暗面（Shadow）源于童年社会化规训中的情绪压抑，唯有如实接纳内在的动物性并将其转化为生产力，才能打破强迫性重复模式。 - [15:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=953s) 拒绝被外界标签固化，必须像对待未成形黏土一样不断重塑自我，勇于在三十多岁打破安稳的既有身份与体制重力。 - [23:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1388s) 置之死地才能激发质变，温和的平庸往往是行动力的最大敌人；寻找略微超出能力上限的挑战区间才能制造最佳生存气压。 - [30:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1811s) 真实使命与童年深层倾向紧密相连，明确使命的核心价值在于“知道自己不想要什么”，从而果断拒绝披着机遇外衣的分心陷阱。 - [40:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2439s) 社交与商业营销中，嫉妒与横向比较是一枚核炸弹；洞察并顺应人性的道德、智力与自主三大幻觉是说服与博弈的关键。 - [47:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2841s) 谈判与自我定价中，自信具有强烈的镜像感染力；敢于展现强势与开出大胆报价，往往比唯唯诺诺更能赢得外界的尊重与溢价。 - [57:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=3438s) 防范“灾难制造者”与“塑料朋友（Frenemies）”至关重要，怀揣嫉妒与恶意者往往在结交初期表现出反常的急不可耐，并在潜意识中通过言语刺痛他人。 - [01:12:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4372s) 真正的精通不等于世俗名利或“天下第一”，而是源于对所做之事的极致热爱、持续挑战与内在意义感，如同专注的铺砖工匠亦达大师境界。 - [01:19:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4747s) 死亡觉知不是消极悲观，而是消除琐碎内耗、让当下体验散发光芒的终极动力，年轻人切莫将健全的体魄与无尽的光阴视作理所当然。 - [01:24:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=5089s) 真正的爱是一种崇高体验，现代人筑起防线避免受伤的防御姿态，恰恰剥夺了自我消融与深度灵魂连接的可能。 - [01:29:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=5368s) 对抗虚无与自我怀疑的最佳解药并非宏大说教，而是聚焦于真实的创造与产出，跨出微小具体的一步为自身价值建立坚实证据。 - [01:41:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=6103s) 战略的本质是抽身退后以理性驾驭局面，缺乏战略思维的直接等义词就是愚蠢，道德作秀与即时情绪化反应只会彻底断送掌控权。 - [01:58:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=7094s) 践行斯多葛主义与尼采的“命运之爱（Amor Fati）”，接受不可控物理偶然性带来的苦难，在心智层面主导自我诠释与生命姿态。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=0s) 开篇引言：伪装的面具与人性的盲区 在节目开篇的精彩剪辑中，罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）直接抛出了一个直击人心的社交技能检验法：若你想辨别身边的某个人究竟是一条暗中窥伺的“毒蛇”还是真正值得信赖的朋友，不妨从一个出其不意的角度突然走近他们并给他们一个惊喜。在那猝不及防的一秒钟里，你往往能捕捉到对方脸上闪过的一抹虚假神情。作为享誉全球的畅销书作家，格林的作品被 Jay-Z 和 Kanye West 等文化偶像反复引用，被公认为权力、诱惑与精通领域的宗师级学者。然而，他在此指出了绝大多数现代人根深蒂固的盲区：人们普遍抱有一种天真的幻想，认为只要自己足够努力、埋头苦干就理应获得成功；殊不知，一旦在人际交往中缺乏洞察力，频繁误读他人，你就会被别有用心之人肆意操控、暗算甚至遭受重创。 格林强调，身为人类就注定会说谎，社交生活本身就是一场戴着面具的博弈，但身体语言与微表情绝不会说谎。眼睛很难伪装，而一个微笑如果你懂得如何解读，它能揭示出上百种截然不同的真实意图。悲哀的是，多数人误以为解读他人是一种天生的直觉本能，盲目相信“我是人，我自然懂人”，实则完全是在盲人摸象、暗中摸索。其中最典型的危险便来自于“友敌”（frenemies）——那些表面与你称兄道弟、暗地里却在蓄意破坏与伤害你的人。随后，主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）插播了一段感言，向观众宣布《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）频道订阅量突破 500 万大关。斯蒂芬坦言三年前开播时，自己最大胆的设想也不过是十万订阅，如今能达到这一里程碑宛如天方夜谭；为了回馈观众，团队已秘密筹备了 9 个月，将在 2024 年以更加极致的制作水准、更深入的对话与全球化视野呈现内容，并以此呼吁观众随手点击订阅支持。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 人际洞察力缺失的恶性循环 accDescr: 展示技术时代下人们因脱离真实互动而导致社交误判与痛苦的闭环机制 subgraph TechIsolation["现代技术与虚拟隔绝"] A["95%的时间深锁于屏幕与线上"] B["非语言信号（眼神/微笑/体态）被彻底过滤"] end subgraph SocialBlindness["社交认知盲区"] C["盲目自信：误以为看懂人性是天生本能"] D["无视他人面具：频现误读与言行失准"] end subgraph NegativeImpact["现实恶果与困境"] E["遭受背叛：落入“友敌”与操控者的陷阱"] F["困惑与痛苦：努力工作却屡遭暗算与挫败"] end A --> B B --> C C --> D D --> E E --> F F -.->|"急需唤醒自我觉察与人性洞察"| C ``` --- ### [02:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=162s) 创作《人性法则》的初衷：技术时代下的社交退化与全球性痛苦 斯蒂芬将话题引向正题，询问格林为何会在 2018 年执笔写下《人性法则》（The Laws of Human Nature）这样一部鸿篇巨制。格林坦率地回顾了自己的心路历程：在写出《权力的48条法则》之前，他在现实生活中其实是一个不折不扣的边缘失败者，频繁换过无数份工作，毫无权力与地位可言。然而一书成名后，形形色色的人突然蜂拥而至向他寻求人生建议。这种身份的骤变让他敏锐地观察到一个普遍蔓延的全球趋势。 当今时代科技高度发达，指尖轻点即可获取海量权力和注意力，这给人们造成了一种虚幻的特权感，认为生活中的一切都应该轻而易举，只要在工作上加倍付出就理所当然该得到晋升与成就。然而，格林频繁目睹人们身上巨大的认知盲区：大家在处理人际关系上极其笨拙脆弱。身处公共场域，人人都戴着精心修饰的面具，不可能将心底的真实想法全盘托出，人人皆有其策略性的一面。但如果缺乏这种防备与洞察意识，你就会在职场中频频说错话、误读上司与同事的弦外之音；许多人自以为能给人留下深刻印象的讨好举动，往往适得其反，最终招致排挤与打压，陷入无休止的困惑、被动与情绪内耗中。格林形容这是一种“笼罩全球的痛苦磁场”——人们的痛苦本质上都源于不知道如何与周围的人打交道。 更为严峻的催化剂在于我们生活的彻底虚拟化。现代人把超过 95% 的时间深锁在手机屏幕背后，甚至连恋爱择偶都交给了滑动屏幕的算法。当人们面对面围坐时，眼神流转、呼吸停顿、微小的肢体收缩都能传递真实的生物信号；而隔着冷冰冰的屏幕，人类数百万年进化而来的基本共情能力、倾听技巧、情绪连结与读人本领正在不可逆转地急剧退化。写下这本书，正是为了在这个日趋数字化的冷漠世界中，为迷失的人们打捞起最原始却最致命的人际生存武器。 --- ### [05:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=317s) 觉醒的第一步：承认无知与向内审视自身的“自恋” 针对斯蒂芬提出的核心追问——若有人意识到自己既缺乏自我觉知又看不懂他人，扭转这一劣势的起点与核心根基究竟是什么？格林的回答掷地有声且毫不客气：第一步，你必须彻底放下骄傲，双膝跪地承认自己在处理人际关系方面极其糟糕无能。 绝大多数人的致命陷阱在于误以为人际交往是一种与生俱来的“出厂设置”，总觉得自己虽不完美但大致能“随机应变”（wing it），自认为懂得察言观色。格林直言，这种想法完全是自欺欺人，你本质上是在毫无光亮的黑暗中胡乱摸索。唯有彻底击碎这种虚妄的自信，真正体会到自身知识的匮乏与迫切需求，蜕变才可能发生。而在意识到这一点之后，首先要做的不是急于给身边的同事、朋友或伴侣贴标签，而是将审视的目光调转 180 度，投向自己的内心。 格林以《人性法则》中最核心的议题之一——“自恋”（Narcissism）与非理性为例，分享了极具个人反思色彩的写作内幕。他在撰写全书最长篇幅的自恋章节时感到异常煎熬，因为在梳理自恋者的经典病理行为时，他内心深处那个诚实的声音不断发出警告：“罗伯特，你自己就是一个不折不扣的自恋者；你过去从不觉得自己自恋，但你书里写到的每一样经典特质你自己身上全都有。”这种自我解剖是残酷而令人痛苦的，但他深知，如果无法在自己身上看清自恋的运作肌理，就永远不可能洞悉他人身上幽微的自恋心理。 格林总结道，觉醒必须始于对过往错误的清算。去复盘那些你曾搞砸的关系、看错的人、会错的意以及因此付出的惨痛代价： - **承认盲目**：放弃“凭直觉就能搞定人际关系”的天真傲慢，正视自身在识人断物上的无知与脆弱。 - **向内归因**：不要急于用人性阴暗面去审判周围的人，先在显微镜下解剖自己的自负、偏见与情绪化。 - **痛感驱动**：只有真正记住过往人际失误所带来的刺痛感，甚至像格林一样承认自己至今依然会无意中误读他人、伤害他人而深感痛苦，这种持续的情绪震荡才能转化为打磨人际洞察力的持久动力。 --- ### [07:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=458s) 直面内心的阴暗面：契诃夫法则与打破强迫性行为模式 斯蒂芬顺势切入了一个更深层的问题：当我们依照这种方法向内审视，真的在自己体内掘出了丑陋的自恋、贪婪或阴暗面时，我们该怎么做？是该去压抑它、试图“治愈”它，还是寻求心理化解？ 格林对此给出了深刻的剖析，并引用了俄国文学巨匠安东·契诃夫（Anton Chekhov）的名言：“人只有在看清自己究竟是什么模样时，才能够变得更好。”（"Man will only become better when you make him see what he is like."）改变自我的冲动人皆有之，但若连自身隐藏的缺陷与弱点都不愿正视，所有的“变好”都不过是空中楼阁。格林指出，人性中最强大的一条基本定律就是：**人类本能地厌恶审视自己**。人们总是倾向于把所有矛盾归咎于外部世界，认为问题永远出在别人身上——是别人具攻击性或被动攻击（passive-aggressive），是别人心怀嫉妒，是别人愚蠢且不讲道理；至于自己，则永远是道德的化身、智慧的楷模与善良的典范。 格林提醒，正视阴暗面绝不是要陷入自我鞭笞或抑郁自责，哀叹“我真是一个无可救药的烂人”。事实上，全人类都源自相同的演化源头与共同祖先，我们大脑中潜藏着完全一致的认知漏洞与神经回路缺陷，没有任何人拥有特权豁免于自私、自负与自我沉迷之外。意识到自己与众生一同背负着这些原始缺陷，不仅不可耻，反而是建立深度同理心的起点。 正如格林坦然承认自己身上至今仍有着“极度自我专注、满脑子想的都是自己、而且非常热衷于大谈特谈自己”的顽疾一样，接纳这一事实并不意味着放弃治疗或听天由命。唯有暴露在意识的强光之下，那些深藏于潜意识中的强迫性模式（compulsive patterns）才能被截断。格林在这一段落尾声强调，人性法则中最核心的洞见在于：**每个人身上都有深植于性格底色的强迫性重复模式**，这些模式往往在最隐秘的亲密关系与职业抉择中反复上演；如果一味选择防御与压抑，将缺陷掩盖在“我很完美”的假象之下，这些看不见的盲区最终将彻底固化为难以挣脱的命运枷锁。 ### [09:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=584s) 察觉强迫性重复与觉醒的痛苦 人往往会在生活中陷入反复出现的行为模式：在感情中一再爱上错误的对象，或在职场中重复犯下同样的错误甚至因此屡次被解雇。虽然人性中存在良性循环，但人们更普遍地在同一个坑里跌倒，陷入无意识的强迫性重复之中。唯有彻底看清这些顽固的模式，一个人才能真正掌握扭转局面的主动权。 主持人 Steven Bartlett 对此提出了自己的观察。他认为，攀登“自我觉察的高山”是一段异常痛苦且艰难的旅程。当一个人终于意识到内心的阴暗面与短板时，往往会经历剧烈的认知失调——你必须被迫面对“真实的自己并非理想中的模样”这一残酷事实。而随后采取行动去改变更是难上加难，因为这不仅需要打破大脑中根深蒂固的神经回路，更是在与强大的习惯循环体系进行抗争。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 习惯打破与行为重塑循环 accDescr: 展示从无意识重复到觉察并打破神经回路的整个过程 subgraph Trap["旧有无意识陷阱"] A["强迫性重复模式<br/>(错误恋爱 / 职场失误)"] --> B["固有神经回路与习惯触发"] B --> A end Trap --> C["建立自我觉察<br/>(认知失调与痛苦)"] subgraph Breakthrough["重构与改变"] C --> D["直面不完美的真实自我"] D --> E["打破旧习惯回路并采取行动"] end ``` ### [10:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=654s) 阴暗面的解放：从戴上面具到接纳“动物性” Robert Greene 却对这种“觉察的痛苦”持完全相反的看法。在他看来，真正痛苦的恰恰是活在对自己一无所知的虚妄之中。戴着虚假的面具周旋于世，假装成另一个人去生活，看似维持了体面，内心的拧巴与伪善却会带来无休止的内耗与折磨。反之，敢于直面自己身上的阴暗特质，是一种极其通透甚至令人狂喜（euphoric）的解脱过程。 Greene 谈到，人们应当坦然承认：“我不是什么圣人，我也不是自己臆想中的完美典范，我本质上就是一个带着缺陷的动物（animal）。”人性的阴暗面（Shadow）是所有人共有的特质，无须为此感到羞耻。自童年起被深深压抑的那些特质，如果一直被排斥在意识之外，便会成为人生痛苦的根源；唯有彻底将其摊在阳光下审视并达成和解，人才能获得真正的精神自由。 - **伪装的代价**：长期扮演他人期待的形象会导致严重的自我疏离与深层痛苦。 - **狂喜的接纳**：打破“道德圣人”的自我幻觉，坦然承认并拥抱内在的动物性。 - **阴影法则**：人性的阴暗面每个人都有，直面它才是从压抑中破局的起点。 ### [12:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=740s) 阴影的起源：从圆满的球体到被切割的月亮 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 人性阴影的形成与压抑过程 accDescr: 描绘人从童年完整状态到被社会驯化、压抑阴暗面的演变 subgraph Childhood["童年初始状态"] A["完整球体<br/>(爱、好奇、攻击性、嫉妒共存)"] end subgraph Repression["社会化规训"] B["家庭与学校要求：'做个好孩子'"] C["攻击冲动被逼入潜意识地下"] end subgraph Adulthood["分裂的成年状态"] D["月之正面：阳光社交面具"] E["月之暗面：压抑的阴暗爆发"] end A --> B B --> C C --> D C --> E ``` 探讨阴暗面的成因时，Greene 将三四岁时的孩童比作一个“浑然一体的圆球”。幼童展现出最自然的人性全貌：既有对父母、手足的爱与依恋，也有毫无修饰的攻击本能——他们会抢玩具、动手打人，甚至口出恶言。这种状态本是浑然天成且未经雕琢的人性本真。 然而随着成长，家庭与学校的规训开始逐月逐年地将这颗球体的阴暗面“切除”。长辈不断告诫孩子要乖巧、要合群，不能流露出任何攻击性或对兄弟姐妹的嫉妒。这些被道德禁锢的情感并未真正消失，而是被迫转入地下，潜伏在心智的阴暗角落。最终，人变成了只有一面发光的月亮：在职场与社交场合竭力展现明朗、体面的一面，拼命掩盖深处蓄积的黑暗能量。而一旦压抑过度且缺乏觉察，这些阴暗面就会在失控时以恶毒的邮件、狂暴的怒吼或尖刻的言辞爆发出来，事后人们往往只能羞愧地自问：“我刚才怎么会变成那样？” ### [14:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=872s) 驯服暗黑能量：将竞争心转化为生产力 Greene 强调，处理阴暗面的最佳方案绝非在现实世界中毫无节制地发泄恶意与攻击性，而是将这股巨大的原始动能引导至具有高度生产力的通道之中。阴暗面本身蕴含着极为强大的能量，压抑它只会导致内爆，而合理借力则能将其升华为成就事业的助推器。 Greene 坦言自己骨子里具有极强的攻击性与竞争欲，即便是朋友间玩简单的纸牌游戏，他也无法忍受失败。他选择将这种好胜心与“黑暗能量”全部倾注到写作之中，转化为追求极致的野心，誓要写出最卓越的书籍以击败所有竞争对手。同样，当人们对社会的不公或现实感到愤怒时，最糟糕的做法是怨天尤人；真正有效的方式是把愤怒化为燃料，投身到实际行动或社会运动中去。 ### [15:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=953s) 重塑自我：打破身份认同的牢笼 谈及《战争的33条战略》（*The 33 Strategies of War*）中的第二条战略——“不要打上一场战争”（Do not fight the last war），Steven Bartlett 指出许多人在生活中陷入了教条与僵化。以金融城里47岁却痛苦不堪的律师或证券交易员为例，他们被过去的陈旧观念与职业身份牢牢锁在牢笼里。人们常常自己写好剧本，然后每天像木偶一样执行既定的人设。 Greene 对此深表赞同，并援引《权力的48条法则》（*The 48 Laws of Power*）中的核心法则——“重塑你自己”（Re-create Yourself）。一旦外界开始固化你的标签（例如认定 Robert Greene 只是个写厚黑、权谋与操纵书籍的暗黑作家），你就会沦为在观众面前讨好表演的马戏团小狗。人必须把自己当成未成形的黏土，像艺术家一样不断重塑自我的轮廓： > “当别人开始定义你是谁时，你必须像对待黏土一样重塑你的个性和本质；你是一个艺术家，永远不要掉进别人设下的剧本陷阱里。” 这也正是 Greene 拒绝按套路写出《权力的48条法则》第二部，而是转头创作截然不同作品的原因所在。 ### [17:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1077s) 安德鲁·休伯曼的跨越：打破学术体制的重力 为了具象化“重塑自我”的力量，Greene 分享了知名神经生物学家 Andrew Huberman 的真实蜕变故事。Huberman 曾公开表示 Greene 的著作《精通》（*Mastery*）对他产生了深远影响。早年间，Huberman 在斯坦福大学（Stanford University）担任教授，科研事业看似蒸蒸日上，但他内心却对学术圈内的繁文缛节、勾心斗角与政治手腕感到极其厌倦与苦闷。 读完《精通》后，三十出头的 Huberman 毅然决定打破学术身份的桎梏，通过进入播客领域，将毕生掌握的硬核科学与神经生物学知识通过全新媒介传递给大众，最终打造出了全球顶尖的超级播客《Huberman Lab》。Bartlett 感慨，这种转变堪称壮举，因为当一个人试图跨越阶层或职业鸿沟时，既有环境往往会释放出巨大的阻力：“安德鲁，老老实实当你的大学教授不好吗？你以为你是谁，居然跑去搞播客？”挣脱这种强大的外部引力并跨越鸿沟，是每个人迈向深度满足人生的必经之路。 - **学术象牙塔的幻灭**：光鲜的教授职位背后，往往充斥着令人窒息的高校政治内耗。 - **《精通》带来的破局**：在事业上升期勇于抛弃既得身份，将专业储备平移至全新赛道。 - **跨越群体阻力**：打破社会期待与同侪压力，拒绝被固有身份锁死在痛苦的平庸之中。 ### [19:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1188s) 倾听内心的痛苦与身心合一的警示 当一个人在某个领域取得成功时，外界往往会开始贴上各种定义性的身份标签。罗伯特·格林指出，如果外界的定义不符合真实的自我，人就必须学会倾听内心的痛苦与挫败感。面临挫折时，人们本能的第一反应往往是向外推卸责任——怪罪世界、伴侣或孩子，却回避探寻痛苦的真正根源。深入剖析后，许多人会发现核心在于自己对当前的工作毫无热爱，即便每天准时到岗、收入丰厚、受人敬仰，内在却空虚烦躁。 格林强调，人必须主动“迎向这种痛苦”（lean into that pain），并清醒地意识到绝不能再忍受这种毫无激情的日子继续度过五年。因为身心是一体的，压抑的渴望和未解的挫败感会直接转化为生理疾病——血压莫名升高、背痛频发等躯体化症状，正是整个人生状态失衡的警钟。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 压抑挫败感导致身心失衡的过程 accDescr: 展示从忽视内在痛苦到身体出现躯体化症状，再到正视痛苦并寻求突破的心智转变链条。 subgraph Trap["恶性循环：回避与压抑"] A["外界标签与世俗成功"] --> B["内在产生厌倦与挫败感"] B --> C["外归因：抱怨配偶、环境与工作"] C --> D["压抑渴望，导致躯体化反应<br/>（高血压、背部剧痛）"] end subgraph Awakening["破局点：身心合一"] D --> E["迎向痛苦，正视身心警示"] E --> F["拒绝维持现状：<br/>'我不能再这样过五年'"] F --> G["主动迎接全新挑战，重获生命活力"] end ``` 这种向未知迈出一步的行动需要极大的无畏精神。就像神经生物学家安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）离开斯坦福大学安稳且享有声誉的教职转向播客创业一样，抛弃稳定的成规虽然伴随风险，但如果继续留在原地，未来只会遭受更深层的精神折磨。格林回顾自身经历提到，如果《权力的48条法则》（The 48 Laws of Power）当初没有成功，他也必须硬着头皮另寻出路。特别是在三十多岁时，主动放下安稳、选择一项全新挑战，不仅不是鲁莽，反而能唤醒沉睡已久的巨大能量，让人瞬间重获年轻与生机。 ### [23:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1388s) 绝境才能催生质变与“背水一战”策略 史蒂文·巴特利特提出一个有趣的观察：很多人不敢迈出第一步，是因为陷入了一种认知幻觉。以杰夫·贝佐斯所谓的“双向门决策”（Type 2 decision）来看，哪怕胡伯曼播客失败，作为聪明人他也完全能退回大学校园，但大众总觉得一旦失败就会失去一切。同时，巴特利特发问：人是否真的必须跌到谷底才能发生转变？ 格林坦言，通常情况下确实只有跌入谷底才会逼人看清真相。温和的平庸与不满足是最致命的陷阱——如果一份工作只是“略微令人不爽”，人就会不断为自己找借口，幻想着“换个老板会变好”或者“跳槽去同类公司就行”，最终在自我麻痹中被生活彻底困死。唯有当痛苦累积到“受够了、再这样下去会抑郁或崩溃”的极端程度时，剧烈的变革才可能发生。 为了防止半途而废，格林在《战争的33条策略》（The 33 Strategies of War）中提出了第四条策略——**“置之死地策略”（The Death Ground Strategy）**。一个人如果抱着“失败了还能滚回斯坦福”或“大不了搬回父母家住”的留后路心态，投入的精力从一开始就会大打折扣，最终注定失败。只有斩断退路、让自己无路可退，才能激发出绝对的专注与拼搏能量。 - **退路带来的心理实验印证**：巴特利特引述了一项心理学期刊的研究——两组受试者被要求解谜以获得美味零食作为奖励。对照组被告知“解开谜题是获取零食的唯一途径”；实验组则被告知“同一款零食在走廊尽头的自动贩卖机里也有卖”。结果拥有“B计划”的后一组投入度显著降低，耗时更短且解题成绩更差，证明退路的存在会在潜意识中削弱主目标的执行力。 ### [26:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1601s) 制造紧迫感：生存气压与最佳挑战区间 人类在漫长的进化历程中，生理力量远不及黑猩猩、猎豹或狮子，之所以能胜出并生存繁衍，全依赖于大脑在生死关头被逼出的创造力与协作力。格林用“气压”（barometric pressure）作为隐喻：当内在感到一股沉重如低气压般的逼迫感时，人就会产生早起干事、攻克难关的天然动能；反之，若生活毫无压力且缺乏后果惩罚，岁月便会在日复一日的拖延中被虚度。 赋予一个人严格的截止日期（deadline），其效率往往能产生质的飞跃——两个月便能达成没有期限时两年都无法完成的目标。这种“背水一战、不成功便成仁”（Get rich or die trying）的背刺之剑，是所有伟大领袖激发团队与自我的核心武器。 针对普通人如何在日常生活中人为制造这种驱动力，格林指出关键在于把握好挑战的“甜蜜点”（sweet spot）： - **挑战过高**：例如一个24岁从未写过书的年轻人，宣称第一本就要写出传世巨著，过高的跨度会引发无力感并迅速导向失败。 - **挑战过低**：目标过于容易，无法调动起内心的气压与饥渴感，导致行动松懈无力。 - **最佳区间**：寻找恰好略微超出自身当前能力上限的挑战，逼迫自己全力攀登，在绝地中激发出最深层的潜能。 ### [29:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1768s) 适度挑战与拒绝平庸：激发行动力的法则 罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）指出，设立挑战是打破停滞的唯一途径。这个挑战必须略高于你目前的实际能力水平，但又不能遥不可及到让你产生无力感。恰恰是这种“够一够才能够得着”的难度，会迫使你警醒：“天哪，我得打起精神了，我必须调动所有的能量去达成它，我得改变自己的旧习惯。”这并不意味着你要极端到每天凌晨四点强行起床去拼命健身，而是把闹钟拨早一个小时，比如在六点或六点半起来，去应对那个稍微超出能力范围的挑战。 格林强调，人如果缺乏持续的挑战，就会不可避免地陷入停滞，这是违背自然法则的退化。只有给自己制造健康的紧迫感和略带难度的目标，生命才会不断迸发出活力。 --- ### [30:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1811s) 真实使命与“虚假人生目标”的陷阱 在谈及人生目标时，主持人询问何为“虚假人生目标”（false purpose）以及如何识别它。格林解释，人生真正的使命仿佛与生俱来，是你注定要去完成的事情，这与童年时期的深层倾向紧密相连。然而，人类的大脑并没有像动物本能那样，在七岁时就自动刻上清晰的路线图。野兽醒来并不需要思考今天该去捕杀哪种猎物，它们的行为由本能驱动；人类却必须主动去探索和发现自己的目标。 如果人们无法通过向内探索的真实过程找到使命，就会因内心的巨大空虚而投向外界寻找替代品。这种对意义的病态渴求，往往会演变成毒瘾、狂热的邪教组织，或是成为在某个激进政治运动中宣泄内心愤怒与挫败感的出口。格林指出，这些外在狂热看似给人一种充实的假象，甚至让人误以为找到了自我，但它本质上是一种精神麻醉剂，并不是你真正生来该做的事——这就是所谓的“虚假人生目标”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 寻找真实使命与落入虚假目标的路径对比 accDescr: 展示未能向内探索真实使命时，人容易落入极端意识形态或成瘾等虚假目标的心理代偿机制。 A["人类缺少预设本能<br>渴望生命意义"] --> B{"是否进行深层自我探索？"} subgraph GenuinePath ["真实使命之路"] B -- 是 --> C["倾听童年内在召唤"] C --> D["磨练技能与自我聚焦"] D --> E["真实目标：从容且具掌控力"] end subgraph FalsePath ["虚假目标陷阱"] B -- 否 --> F["内心空虚与无方向感"] F --> G["向外抓取代偿物"] G --> H["虚假目标：极端派系/毒瘾/盲目狂热"] end ``` --- ### [32:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1920s) 明确目标的威力：“知道自己不想要什么” 当一个人真正找到并践行自己的使命时，其状态与迷茫者有着天壤之别。格林形容这甚至带有某种“神秘主义色彩”：当目标清晰时，一切都会顺理成章地各就其位，需要的资源和机遇会自然向你聚拢。虽然这依然需要刻苦打磨技能与付出艰辛努力，但整个过程会顺畅得多。 格林半开玩笑地承认自己的自恋特质，随后指出使命感带来的最大核心优势在于：**“我知道自己不想要什么。”** 他每天都会收到大量合作诱惑，有人劝他“做这个能赚大钱”，有人建议把《权力的48条法则》（*The 48 Laws of Power*）改编成电视节目，或者开发成游戏。然而格林内心的雷达会毫不犹豫地发出警告并直接拒绝。如果缺乏这种定力，精力就会被分散到八个不同的领域，最终丧失专注，陷入痛苦。 学会坚决说“不”不仅能聚拢能量，更赋予人巨大的掌控权。当然，这种专注也需要保有适度的弹性，比如格林提到自己愿意在一个月后录制法文版的 Masterclass 课程，因为这既有挑战性，又契合他传播思想的内核。 - 主持人引述名言共鸣：“分心往往伪装成机遇而来”（Distractions come dressed up as opportunities）。只有对终极目标极度明确，才能看破披着机会外衣的分心陷阱。 --- ### [35:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2102s) 预演后果的智慧与年轻人的试错平衡 格林分享了他抵制诱惑的思考方法——“推演全局”（game it out）。在成为畅销书作家之前，他曾在好莱坞和电视行业工作过，深刻了解影视制作的痛苦：多达数百人介入项目，每个人都在指手画脚、随意修改创意，原作者毫无权力和掌控力，整天陷入无休止的开会与空谈。因此，当有人第85次向他提议将书改编为电视剧时，他只要推演一下未来的痛苦折磨，就能断然回绝。 二十出头的年轻人往往不具备这种雷达，因为在21岁时，世界上的每件事看起来都新鲜诱人。格林认为，辨别力必须通过踩坑、浪费时间与失败的切身痛苦才能磨练出来。 针对“年轻时是否该对一切说‘是’”的问题，格林指出这绝非非黑即白： - **二十多岁的阶段目标**：这个时期身体健康、容貌出众、精力充沛，理应享受冒险与乐趣，不该在22岁就为了图安稳而早早进入高盛等大机构定死一生； - **拒绝漫无目的的杂乱**：探索不能变成毫无关联的胡乱拼凑——今天写诗、明天玩摇滚、后天学化学。这种纯粹追求新鲜感的尝试注定失败； - **三十而立的结算时刻**：到了30岁，面对岁月流逝的现实清算，你应该在经历过四到五个方向的聚焦探索后，真正沉淀出硬核技能（如格林找到了写作）。 在谈到这一路径时，格林引用了他在《精通》（*Mastery*）一书中采访 Y Combinator 创始人保罗·格雷厄姆（Paul Graham）的案例：格雷厄姆在20世纪70年代末只有十八九岁、还在 MIT 时，就因为父亲是拥有早期计算机的科学家而早早接触黑客技术，并一头扎进了当时根本无人问津的人工智能领域，由此开启了贯穿一生的深厚积累。 ### [39:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2350s) 保罗·格雷厄姆的跨界探索：从程序员、画家到创业教父 罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）以硅谷创业教父保罗·格雷厄姆（Paul Graham）的早年经历为例，阐述了如何在二十多岁时通过跨领域探索找到终身志向。格雷厄姆原本在麻省理工学院（MIT）攻读计算机科学，人生轨迹原本是成为一名学者和教授。然而，他极度厌恶学院内部的勾心斗角、官僚人事和学术政治，觉得那份工作完全是“榨干灵魂”（soul-sucking）。于是他果断选择退出学术圈，搬回纽约的一间阁楼里当起了一名身无分文的画家，完全沉浸在自己对设计与视觉艺术的热爱中。 转折发生在他从收音机里听到一则广告——当时正值网景（Netscape）与早期互联网刚刚萌芽的时代，广播提到计算机的未来在于能够在互联网上买卖商品。敏锐的格雷厄姆随即将他在 MIT 掌握的硬核编程技术与他在艺术领域的视觉设计审美融为一体，开发出最早的电子商务应用原型之一（Viaweb）。后来雅虎（Yahoo）收购了这家公司，格雷厄姆借此实现了财富自由。随后的故事众所周知，极易感到厌倦的他又创办了孵化出无数科技巨头、估值高达数百亿美元的 Y Combinator，功成名就后又因为热爱写作而转向专栏创作。格林指出，格雷厄姆二十多岁打磨过硬技能、投身热爱、在三十岁时完成跨界融合的轨迹，正是寻找人生使命的经典范式。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 保罗·格雷厄姆的跨界人生路径 accDescr: 展示保罗·格雷厄姆从MIT学术、艺术绘画到创立互联网公司及YC的跨界融合历程 subgraph Phase1["二十多岁：探索与积累"] A["MIT 计算机博士路径<br/>（掌握硬核编程技术）"] -->|厌倦学术政治而离开| B["纽约阁楼画家<br/>（沉浸于设计与视觉审美）"] end subgraph Phase2["三十岁：交叉融合与突破"] B --> C["受到早期互联网广播启发"] A --> C C --> D["创立早期电商原型 Viaweb<br/>（编程技术 + 审美设计）"] D -->|被 Yahoo 收购| E["实现财富自由"] end subgraph Phase3["成熟期：持续迭代"] E --> F["创立顶尖孵化器 Y Combinator"] F -->|转向新热爱| G["科技思想家与作家"] end ``` --- ### [40:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2439s) 洞察人性弱点：三大核心心理与社交中的“面具” 当主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提问：在现实生活中，他人往往是我们实现目标的最大阻碍，如果想要掌握人性并使之对自己有利，应该从何处着手？格林坦言，虽然“利用他人的人性为己所用”听起来非常自恋甚至有些冷酷，但这就是残酷的客观现实。 格林指出，普通人在人际交往中犯下的最大错误，就是“把表象当成真相”。人们习惯性地相信对方展现出来的礼貌、笑容以及“我太喜欢你了”之类的奉承，全然忘记了这只是人戴上的面具。想要真正洞察他人，必须掌握人性底层的三大核心自尊幻觉： 1. **道德自恋**：每个人都潜意识里认为自己本质上是善良、高尚、道德纯洁且无可挑剔的； 2. **智力自尊**：没有任何人愿意承认自己愚蠢，每个人都坚信自己非常聪明机智； 3. **自主幻觉**：每个人都坚信自己拥有强大的意志力，认为自己能够掌控生活，所做的一切决定都是出于自由意志，而非受人摆布或缺乏自知之明。 格林警告说，如果你在社交或职场中让对方对自己的智力感到自卑，暗示他们道德败坏，或者指出他们是被迫、盲目行动的，对方就会立刻产生强烈的怨恨与抵抗心理。相反，只有洞察并顺应这三大心理需求，才能掌握说服、影响与操纵他人的真正力量。 --- ### [42:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2557s) 嫉妒的力量与现代营销心理学 除了自我形象的幻觉，格林特别强调了“嫉妒”（Envy）与社会比较机制的惊人破坏力。尤其在当今社交媒体的放大下，嫉妒已经演变成一枚引爆社会情绪的“核炸弹”。人们无时无刻不在与周围人以及网络上的陌生人进行比较。 在市场营销、商业宣传和打造病毒式传播（Virality）方面，嫉妒与比较心理拥有不可估量的巨大力量。高明的营销从来不是直接教育消费者“你们应该买这个”，而是巧妙地展示“看看其他人都在抢着买什么、其他人正在享受什么”。人们害怕被排斥、渴望加入潮流并超越同侪的嫉妒本能，会驱使他们主动跟风掏出钱包。格林强调，理解人性的这一核心特质，能赋予你在商业与人际交往中极大的杠杆，而这种力量既可以用于创造价值，也可能被别有用心者用于恶意操纵。 --- ### [43:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2610s) 人人都是演员：为什么谎言与伪装是人类社交的必需品 针对史蒂文提出的尖锐问题——“为了获得成功，我们必须撒谎吗？”以及格林著作中频繁提及的“隐藏真实意图”、“伪装自己”和“在生活中扮演演员”，格林毫不掩饰地给出了肯定回答：“作为人类，就意味着我们必须撒谎。” 格林分析道： - **欺骗是人类进化的本能**：人类是从黑猩猩演化而来的社会性动物，动物行为学研究早已证明，黑猩猩在没有语言的情况下就能进行高超的欺骗与伪装。 - **幼童时期的表演天赋**：三四岁的孩子就已经学会了在父母面前精心组织措辞、调整哭腔和语气，通过“演戏”来达成自己的目的，因为他们知道直白索取通常会碰壁。 - **面具是文明运转的润滑剂**：在成人世界中，唯一的真实在于肢体语言（微笑时眼角的细纹、眼神的方向等微表情无法完全掩饰），而口头语言几乎全是经过加工的假面。格林表示，人们应当彻底抛弃对“表演”的道德负罪感。如果我们每天在公共场合直抒胸臆，对别人直言“你太胖了、你长得真难看、你的文章写得烂透了”，人际关系就会像两块未经润滑的坚硬金属剧烈摩擦碰撞，整个社会明天就会彻底崩溃。 在日常生活中，人们无时无刻不在根据交往对象切换角色：面对父亲是一种姿态，面对孩童是一种姿态，面对小猫用一种温柔的语调，而面对为自己播客提供资金赞助的资方时又会换上另一副面孔。从罗伯特·德尼罗式的深沉到迎合周遭的顺从，每个人都是全天候的角色扮演者。虽然格林承认谎言存在性质和程度的差异（从政客式的恶意欺诈到维持社会和谐的日常“善意谎言/白谎”），但进入文明社会就等于穿上了戏服。 --- ### [47:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2841s) 展现强势与自我定价：谈判中如何借用果断赢得杠杆 史蒂文随后引用了格林的一句名言：“如果你表现软弱且索求甚少，你得到的就微乎其微；但如果你表现强势，提出坚定甚至离谱的要求，你反而会树立相反的印象——人们会认为你底气十足、必定身怀真材实料，进而赢得他们的尊重，而这种尊重最终会转化为切实的筹码。” 格林解释称，这种法则是针对特定情境（尤其是谈判与自我定价）的博弈策略，绝不能僵化地盲目套用到人生的所有场景中。格林剖析了其中的深层心理机制： - **人性的投射效应**：人类对他人的价值判断往往基于对方展现出的自信程度。在服务定价或商业谈判中，如果你怯生生、毫无底气地报出“两万美元就够了”，对方立刻会下意识地认为你能力平庸、难担大任，并顺水推舟压低价格。 - **敢于溢价的心理威慑**：相反，如果你以坚定不移、深信不疑的语气开出一个极高的大胆报价，对方反而会陷入怀疑并产生敬畏心理，认为你的才干必定配得上这个高价。就算谈判破裂被拒也无妨，市场上自会有其他买家为这份强烈的自信买单。 在格林阐述这一法则时，史蒂文联想到了 WeWork 创始人亚当·诺伊曼（Adam Neumann）的经典案例：当年诺伊曼在一辆出租车后座上向软银集团（SoftBank）创始人孙正义（Masayoshi Son）狮子大开口索要数十亿美元融资，而这位极具传奇色彩的亚洲富豪随即便给出了出人意料的反馈。 ### [49:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2961s) 索取更多与自信的感染力 主持人分享了一则震撼他的商业轶事：投资人在出租车后座只聊了大约 12 分钟，就批评对方“你的唯一问题就是野心不够大”，随即大笔一挥开出了价值数十亿美元的支票。这一幕让主持人深受触动并反思：“如果我开始向生活索取更多呢？如果我把发出的每一封邮件、提出的每一个诉求都乘以十倍，十年后我的人生会变成什么样？”罗伯特·格林表示认同，直言如果你敢于要求，得到的一定远比唯唯诺诺时多得多。人类本就是依赖外在表象来做判断的生物。 格林用社交聚会打了个非常形象的比方：当你走向一个满脸焦虑、局促不安的人，即使你完全理解并同情对方的自卑——毕竟每个人都有不安全感——那种局促感依然会迅速传染给你，让你也开始结结巴巴、举止尴尬；反之，若你走向一个举止自信、眼神坚定、声音有力的人，对方散发的气场不仅会唤醒你内在自信的一面，甚至会带给你强烈的震撼。格林回忆起自己与说唱歌手 50 Cent（柯蒂斯·杰克逊）共同工作数月的经历，形容 50 Cent 拥有“自信到近乎荒谬”的超凡魅力，那种强大气场极具穿透力，仅仅相处几小时就会被深深感染。 格林特别指出了这种自信在性别与族裔语境下的微妙差异。女性在职场与社交中往往面临不公的双重标准：如果女性过度展现强势与魄力，往往更容易被冠上苛刻、刻薄的负面标签。因此在博弈中，女性与少数族裔需要掌握更精致的表达分寸。但格林强调，自信的核心不在于大喊大叫或生硬地索要天文数字，而在于内在对自己价值的绝对笃定。当你打心底里坚信自己值得这样的待遇并认可自身所做的事情时，这种信念自然会通过姿态和非语言细节投射给外界，他人也会在潜移默化中接受你的定位。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自信投射与人际镜像机制 accDescr: 展示个体内在信念如何通过非语言信号影响外部感知与人际反馈。 subgraph Internal["内在心理状态"] A["内在自信与自我价值确认"] B["内在焦虑与不安全感"] end subgraph Projection["非语言外显信号"] C["坚定眼神 / 稳定音调 / 开放身态"] D["游离眼神 / 迟疑语调 / 紧绷身态"] end subgraph Impact["外部接收与人际反馈"] E["触发对方的尊重与自信共鸣\n提高诉求达成概率"] F["引发对方的局促与怀疑\n降低评价与信任度"] end A --> C --> E B --> D --> F ``` --- ### [51:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=3111s) 非语言智力：如何通过眼神、声音与微表情识破伪装 谈及身体语言，格林强调解读非语言沟通是一种完全不同于逻辑与算法的智能形式，它没有公式可循，本质上是一种高度共情、无需言语的情感调频能力。格林在观察一个人时，首先捕捉的是其整体气场（Gestalt），用一个直觉性的词来定性对方当下的能量状态——是“焦虑不安”、“外向开朗”还是“缺乏耐心”。在确立了整体氛围后，他才会将注意力转移到具体的微观细节上。 格林重点解析了三大极难伪装的身体线索： - **空洞的眼神**：高段位的自恋狂和精神病态者（Psychopaths）能够完美做出专注倾听的表情，但他们的眼睛深处往往是冰冷、毫无生机的。他们注视着你，脑海里却在盘算你能提供什么利益，把你当成一件工具或客体。 - **失控的语调**：即便是技艺精湛的演员，最难自主控制的也是声音的底色与音调。言语间的细微颤抖、犹豫、吞吐或迟疑，能最直接、最诚实地出卖一个人的真实自信心与内在品格。 - **笑容的真伪**：发自内心的真实笑容能瞬间点亮整张脸，眼角收缩、面颊肌肉提升，所有五官联动；而社交假笑仅仅是嘴角机械地上扬，面部其余部位毫无波澜，宛如一张冷漠的面具说着：“史蒂芬，我真的很喜欢你。” 针对职场中真假难辨的“伪君子”或潜在背叛者，格林提供了一个行之有效的鉴别技巧：**出其不意的侧方观察法**。如果径直从正面走向对方，对方有充裕的时间戴上热情的社交面具；但如果你从侧面出其不意地出现在他们身旁，人在毫无防备的瞬间无法及时伪装，脸上往往会闪现极其短暂的“微表情”——可能是一闪而过的鄙夷、冷淡或厌恶。这种微表情在心理学研究中往往只持续不足一秒，却能彻底撕破伪善的伪装，让你看清对方真实的内心立场。 --- ### [57:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=3438s) 情绪传染法则：识别并远离自我毁灭的“灾难制造者” 针对主持人关于“精选身边圈子对人生成功有多重要”的提问，格林直言这关乎生存，并提到了他在《权力的48条法则》中著名的“感染法则”（Law 10: Infection）。许多人都经历过这种危险的社交陷阱：初相识时，某个人看起来极具吸引力，甚至带有几分传奇色彩，他们充满戏剧性，口才极佳，擅长讲述跌宕起伏的故事。 然而随着交往逐渐深入，真相开始浮出水面——这类人本质上极度扭曲且不稳定。他们的生活永远充斥着狗血剧，无休止地抱怨谁又背叛了他们、前任有多么恶毒、社会对他们有多么不公。当你意识到“他们自己才是所有问题的根源”时，你往往已经投入了深厚的情感，成了他们的朋友。此时，他们会把情感游戏施加到你身上，将你拖入无底的情绪泥潭中，用负面能量彻底感染你，让你感到痛苦万分却又因道德绑架或情感羁绊而难以抽身。 格林特别厘清了这一法则的边界： - **真正的受害者 vs. 制造灾难的传染源**：必须严格区分由于客观境遇不佳而遭遇不幸的人，与那些亲手制造毁灭性漩涡的“戏剧之王/女王”（Drama King/Queen）。对于前者，社会应当给予同情与援手； - **自毁性的人格特质**：后者遭遇的厄运，完全是由其内心深处的极度自卑与扭曲心理反复招致的。他们扮演着所有人的受害者，却以吞噬周围人的精力与情绪为生。格林告诫，一旦识别出这种自导自演灾难的人格特质，必须毫不犹豫地将其清理出自己的生活圈子。 ### [59:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=3589s) 积极能量的传染与“塑料朋友”（Frenemies）的本质 置身于缺乏安全感的人群中，你自身也会逐渐变得患得患失；相反，若与那些自信、清楚自己在做什么、生活井井有条并脚踏实地成事的人相处，你就会受到正面感染。世界上有太多只会夸夸其谈却从不付诸行动的人，而那些能够真正把事情做成、创办企业、创造价值的人是无价之宝，他们的积极能量极具传染性。随后，主持人引出“塑料朋友”（Frenemies，即表面是朋友、暗中怀有敌意的人）的话题：每个人身边是否都有这种人？我们又该如何识别他们？ ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 嫉妒的心理转化机制 accDescr: 展示从内在嫉妒情绪演化为被动与主动伤害，乃至成为塑料朋友的心理链条。 subgraph Origin["人性本能溯源"] A["远古部落防嫉妒仪式 / 黑猩猩葡萄实验"] --> B["普遍人性格局：随时与他人暗中对比"] end subgraph EnvyTypes["嫉妒的两种形态"] B --> C["被动嫉妒 (Passive Envy)<br>内心轻微酸楚、人人皆有"] B --> D["主动嫉妒 (Active Envy)<br>付诸破坏与背刺行动"] end subgraph FrenemyDynamic["塑料朋友 (Frenemies) 的行为模型"] D --> E["无意识靠近目标：误以为真想做朋友"] E --> F["过度热络：急迫跳过了解阶段"] F --> G["隐性伤害：暗中贬损、激发自卑、背刺背叛"] G --> H["受害者反思归咎自身：误以为是自己做错"] end ``` 罗伯特·格林指出，嫉妒（Envy）是人性中极其强大且古老的特质。早在数千年前的狩猎采集社会，嫉妒就是极具破坏性的生存威胁，以至于许多部落发展出严格的仪式——只要有人获得礼物或捕获猎物，必须立即分给其他族人，否则就可能招致杀身之祸。黑猩猩同样具有嫉妒心理：在极讲究等级的黑猩猩群体中，若给高阶黑猩猩一颗葡萄，其他猩猩会立刻充满强烈的渴望与嫉妒。嫉妒深植于我们体内，没有人能完全免俗。罗伯特坦承，自己至今仍会感到嫉妒，例如他有时会嫉妒作家瑞安·霍利迪（Ryan Holiday）——比他年轻三十岁左右、图书销量惊人且成就斐然。普通人身上普遍存在的是“被动嫉妒”（Passive envy），即内心一闪而过的酸涩感；而“主动嫉妒”（Active envy）则是指人们将这种情绪付诸行动，采取暗中破坏、暗中伤害甚至蓄意阻碍你的手段。 “塑料朋友”正是主动嫉妒的典型产物。有些人因为嫉妒你的成就、认为你拥有了他们渴望且自认配得上的东西，进而主动接近你、与你成为朋友。甚至在潜意识层面，他们自己都未曾意识到这种恶意，表面上还认为自己很喜欢你。然而一旦走近，他们便会露出丑陋的一面：他们会说出带有刺伤性、让你自我怀疑的尖酸评论（"shitty comments that get under your skin"），暗中夺走你的成果，做出伤害你的举动。更糟的是，因为对方顶着“朋友”的头衔，受害者的第一反应往往不是警惕，而是自责，反思是否是自己做错了什么。识别这种嫉妒型伪好友的关键征兆之一，在于他们建立友谊时极其仓促与急迫。正常的人际交往往往遵循循序渐进的节奏，我们会审视对方、慢慢敞开心扉；而怀揣嫉妒意图的人则会表现出反常的急不可耐，初次见面就大加赞美、高呼“我太喜欢你了，你简直太棒了，我们明天必须一起吃晚餐”，试图跳过一切防备快速侵入你的生活圈。 ### [01:03:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=3828s) 阶层跃升与老友的嫉妒：“幸灾乐祸”与“同喜共乐” 当自身发生蜕变、社会地位发生变化时，昔日的旧友很容易转化为“塑料朋友”。罗伯特·格林提到，自己成名之前也曾经历过这种转变：当你从原本平凡的起点取得了巨大成功，而过去的朋友仍停留在原地，嫉妒往往会在他们心中悄然滋生，原本友善的态度也会随之变味。这里涉及两个互相对立的德语词汇概念：一个是众人熟知的“幸灾乐祸”（Schadenfreude），即目睹别人的痛苦与失败而暗自窃喜（例如听到朋友错失了梦寐以求的工作，口头上说着“太遗憾了”，心底深处却闪过一丝快感）；另一个则是哲学家尼采（Friedrich Nietzsche）提出的“同喜共乐”（Mitfreude），意为能发自内心地为他人的成就与快乐感到高兴。 罗伯特表示，自己一直在刻意培养这种更高阶的情感品质。当好事降临在别人头上时，第一反应或许难免有一丝嫉妒的本能悸动，但他会立刻觉察并自我纠正：“这对他太棒了，我为他感到高兴。”但对大多数人而言，直面朋友的飞黄腾达是反人性的，人们的第一反应往往是“他不配”、“他肯定是靠投机取巧走捷径才成功的”。罗伯特发现，在他成名之前认识的那些老相识，往往是对他的书赞誉最少的人：他们不仅几乎从不读他的书，言语间极为吝啬，脸上甚至会带着紧绷而刻薄的微表情；反而是那些素未谋面的陌生人，会毫无保留地给予他热情洋溢的赞美。 - **幸灾乐祸（Schadenfreude）与同喜共乐（Mitfreude）**：前者是原始本能，面对熟人的挫折暗自高兴；后者由尼采提出，要求个体克服嫉妒、发自内心地分享他人的喜悦，需要极高的自觉与理性克制。 - **老朋友的防御心理**：旧友看到出身相似的同伴飞黄腾达，会感受到巨大的自我威胁，就像是一面映照出自身平庸的镜子。为了维护自尊，他们通常不会承认自身的无能，而是转为在道德上贬低对方：“罗伯特变了，他出卖了灵魂，写了本恶毒、肮脏、充满权谋算计的坏书，他不再是原来那个单纯善良的人了。” ### [01:07:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4028s) 《权力的48条法则》为何引发道德过敏与争议 主持人追问，在《权力的48条法则》（The 48 Laws of Power）的核心思想中，究竟是什么触碰到了大众最敏感的神经，以至于许多人甚至在没有翻开书页前，仅仅看一眼封面书名或目录法则就产生强烈的“过敏反应”与道德抵触？ 罗伯特·格林解释，很多产生生理性厌恶的人，往往只是草草扫过封底或目录上的法则名称，便断定“这太丑陋、太邪恶了”。这种反感往往源自于他们过去的真实创伤——他们在现实生活中曾被极具操控欲的人伤害过，因此对这种权谋策略产生发自内心的恶心与防备。面对冷静下来的读者，罗伯特通常会这样阐明此书的初衷：“如果你在遭遇操纵之前就读过《权力的48条法则》，那些人根本不可能得逞。这本书是你人生中最好的盾牌。只要你读懂了它，你就看穿了别人在你身上使用的所有伎俩——他们如何伪装成朋友充当密探、如何隐藏真实意图。它是在为你揭示所有的底牌与套路。” 之所以激怒许多人，是因为这本书打破了虚伪的道德幻想：它直接挑明人类绝非纯洁的天使，人性中本就充斥着阴暗与利己动机；而大众却误以为他是在撰写一本教人如何撒谎、欺骗、敲诈和操纵他人的“恶人操作手册”。相反，那些在现实世界中经历过真正磨难与痛苦的人，往往能立刻读懂书中的讽刺意味与深层真实。罗伯特提到，早期对《权力的48条法则》反响最热烈、最理解其价值的读者群体之一，是包括说唱歌手 50 Cent 在内的非裔美国人群体以及嘻哈界从业者。因为他们在残酷的现实环境中摸爬滚打，对人性的善意早已没有任何天真浪漫的幻想，他们早已见惯了现实世界最赤裸、最真实的一面。 ### [01:09:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4165s) 平等的幻觉与天生潜能的唯一定义 罗伯特·格林提到，像 50 Cent 这样的人进入唱片行业时，曾对人际关系中的权谋与操纵深感震惊，但他们并不会像普通大众那样产生道德上的愧疚与抵触——不会去质问“为什么我们要讨论这些不积极、没有帮助的东西”，而大众的抵触恰恰源于被戳中了内心的阴暗面。主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）顺此分享了他最近与一名前 CIA 特工的交谈：那位特工直言，在 CIA 的工作经历让他彻底明白“平等根本是不可能的”。无论政客还是商人，人类社会的所有游戏本质上都是关于等级、权力与争先恐后；政客表面高呼平等，背地里却是在竞选争夺实质性的客观权力。 格林对此表示认同，承认人类天性中确实根植着根深蒂固的等级制倾向。然而，他坚信存在一种根本意义上的“平等”：每个人在出生那一刻，都拥有走向《精通》（*Mastery*）道路的潜能，拥有成就自身伟大、兑现天命的可能。每个人的 DNA 都独一无二，过去的宇宙和未来的岁月里都不可能重现，这种独特性连同个人的家庭、成长环境一起构成了一颗原初的种子。只要精心培育、找到真正的人生使命，就能从中汲取无尽的内在力量。 作为例证，格林谈到了他在撰写《精通》时采访的动物行为学家坦普尔·格兰丁（Temple Grandin）： - 格兰丁自幼患有严重的自闭症，两岁时几乎要被终身送进精神病院，整个人如同处于“行走的昏迷状态”。 - 后来一位老师介入教她语言，她才逐渐走出封闭的世界。 - 格兰丁无法理解人类复杂狡诈的社交与欺瞒，却发现自己与动物（马、狗、牛）之间有着不可思议的深刻联结，能感受到自己是它们中的一员。 - 最终，她顺应这种天赋与独特联结，成长为世界顶级的高水平动物行为科学家。 格林强调，虽然最终取得的结果绝不可能人人均等，绝大多数人也未能走完这条路径，但他发自内心地坚信：每个人生来都具备这种独一无二的潜在力量。 --- ### [01:12:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4372s) 什么是真正的“精通”：铺砖工匠与史蒂夫·乔布斯 面对格林的观点，主持人提出疑问：这种潜能究竟是客观意义上的伟大（像史蒂夫·乔布斯那样成为全球最顶尖的人物），还是主观意义上的伟大（成为最好版本的自己）？ 格林坚决否认了“必须成为天下第一”的说法。他分享了一段亲身经历：当《精通》出版时，《纽约时报》计划在其家居专栏报道格林的住宅。由于平时很少受到主流媒体的关注，格林决定抓住这次机会，匆忙翻修房屋。当时他后院的露台瓷砖破烂不堪，于是雇了一位泥瓦匠重新铺设。格林观察那位工匠的工作后，深感震撼，认定他是一位名副其实的“大师”（Master）： - 那位工匠年收入并未达到六位数，去世后也不会有人为他写传记，外界甚至根本不会知道他的名字。 - 但他在铺设瓷砖时流露出的沉静品质、对工艺的透彻理解、无微不至的细心，以及在创造优美铺贴效果时散发的纯粹喜悦，展现了真正的精通境界。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 两种走向精通与内心充实的路径 accDescr: 展示了极致野心型与当下专注型虽然外在追求不同，但底层都由挑战与热爱驱动的结构对比。 subgraph Core["精通的核心要素"] C1["热爱与情感联结"] C2["持续直面挑战"] C3["内在使命感与意义"] end subgraph Paths["外在表现形态"] P1["雄心勃勃型<br/>（如：乔布斯 / 顶级播客）<br/>不断追求更大规模与颠覆"] P2["内敛专注型<br/>（如：铺砖工匠 / 优秀父母）<br/>在具体技艺或角色中追求极致与平静"] end Core --> P1 Core --> P2 ``` 格林指出，精通存在不同的层级和形态：有人可能无法在金融界呼风唤雨，但作为父母，他们极富同理心、全身心投入育儿并以此为乐，这也是一种了不起的精通。真正的关键在于两点：**明确知道这是自己命中注定要去完成的事**，并且**全身心投入、乐在其中、感受到充实与自足**。 --- ### [01:15:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4500s) 野心、焦虑与浮士德式的永不满足 主持人坦承自己在这一问题上陷入了内心挣扎。成长于社交媒体盛行的时代，每天打开 Instagram 都会看到无穷无尽的横向对比，让人永远觉得自己“还不够成功”。一方面，这种压力制造了紧迫感与生存饥渴，推着他不断向前；但另一方面，这也带来了将幸福无限推迟的痛苦——总觉得幸福藏在下一个成就、职位或世俗光环的背后。听到那位铺砖工匠的故事，他甚至心生嫉妒，因为工匠能以远低于自己的外在物质获得平静，而自己却在“做快乐自足的工匠”与“做永远焦躁、追求颠覆的乔布斯”之间纠结不已。 格林回应道，选择成为哪种人完全取决于个体的天性： - 只要一个人深深热爱自己的工作、在情感上产生共鸣并获得充实感，不必总回头张望“我是不是该做别的”，这种状态就无可挑剔。 - 与此同时，像乔布斯那样永远不满足、具有浮士德式无尽进取心的人，同样值得尊重。 - 无论是立志打造百亿商业帝国，还是每天把一片露台铺设得尽善尽美，两者底层的驱动力是相通的：**对当下的热爱、持续面对挑战，以及强烈的使命与意义感**。 格林特别告诫，人生最可怕的悲剧，莫过于到了五六十岁、面对死期将至时陷入痛悔：“见鬼，我原本可以有所作为的。我小时候有过那么多梦想，以为自己能做出一番大事，却在中途迷失方向，走了完全不相干的路。”只要做的事情能连接起童年时那个纯粹的自己，并且持续提供挑战与热爱，就足以对抗虚无。 --- ### [01:18:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4717s) 死亡作为终极动力：中风边缘的生还 当被问及“死亡如今是否成为你的动力”时，格林的回答斩截而深沉：“现在它绝对是了。” 格林直言，当人活到某个特定的年龄节点，剩余的日子便不再是抽象的概念，而是可以清晰数出来的倒计时。更关键的是，他在几年前曾经历了一场突如其来的严重中风，与死神擦肩而过。当时他正开着车，情况千钧一发，若非妻子在身旁及时做出关键反应并施救，他早已不在人世。这场生死危机彻底改变了他对待时间与创作的态度，将死亡从哲学层面的隐喻，变成了每分每秒悬在头顶的真实紧迫感。 ### [01:19:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4747s) 随时可能降临的死亡：中风后的死亡觉知与紧迫感 罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）回忆起那次惊心动魄的中风事件，坦言如果当时伴侣没有及时发现异常，自己绝不可能坐在这里交谈——他要么当场车祸身亡，要么会遭受严重的脑损伤变成植物人。因此，死亡并不是抽象的哲学概念，而是深刻烙印在他肉体中的真切感受。如今他每天清晨醒来做晨间冥想时，都会进行一项特别的心智训练：他会设想“这可能是我生命的最后一个念头，我也许十秒钟之后就会死去”。在人生的最后几秒，脑海里究竟该保留什么？是为某人说了什么、做了什么而耿耿于怀的琐碎狭隘，还是某种更宏大、更崇高的事物？ 这种对必死性（mortality）的清醒觉知，也贯穿在他正在撰写的新书创作中。他时刻意识到自己随时可能在完稿前离世，好在目前已经完成了全书的三分之二；哪怕明天撒手人寰，已完成的体量也足够出版，这让他稍感宽慰。但内心的紧迫感从未消失，他迫切希望能彻底写完它。格林强调，这种对死亡的敏感并非病态或消极的，相反，它赋予了生命真正的意义，让人深刻意识到每一个当下的宝贵。 当格林望向窗外，看着街上的人们轻松自如地做着各种他如今因身体瘫痪而无法再做的事情时，他深知普通人往往把这一切视为理所当然，从未意识到自己的身体随时可能崩溃。正因为他的心智处于对生命短暂性（ephemeral nature）的高度觉知层面上，他不会对他人心生嫉妒；生命的无常反而让周围的一切都散发出一种耀眼而美丽的光晕（aglow）。尽管他也承认这种觉知伴随着阴暗的一面，甚至在梦境与思绪中常有阴暗的侵扰，但他坚信：对死亡的时刻觉知是一件无比美丽的事，它让所有体验都变得格外炽烈。 --- ### [01:21:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4890s) 命运之爱（Amor Fati）与给年轻人的警示：切莫虚掷健康与光阴 当主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提到自己刚满31岁，并好奇如果能将格林历经沧桑、中风劫后余生所获得的死亡觉知移植到自己脑海中，格林会建议年轻时的自己怎样生活时，格林忍不住笑着打趣：“天哪，你还是个小毛孩，我真嫉妒你！我31岁的时候简直是个彻头彻尾的卢瑟。”然而，格林明确表示自己从不去做“如果能重来”的思想假设，因为他深信尼采所说的“命运之爱”（Amor Fati）——去热爱你所遭遇的一切命运。 格林坚信生命中发生的一切皆有其意义。假若他在22岁时就急于求成、渴望作为作家一举成名，他绝不可能积累足够的阅历写出后来的著作，人生轨迹也势必彻底走样；因此他对过去毫无悔恨。然而，站在编织生命图景的视角来看，30岁出头的年轻人的人生织锦往往才完成了三分之一，而年长者已织就三分之二，能看清那些年轻人尚无法洞悉的人生纹路。年轻最普遍的盲区，就是误以为未来有无尽的时间可以挥霍，四处旅行、频繁更换创业赛道，全然缺乏紧迫感。 格林告诫年轻人，明天就可能遭遇车祸，或者突然被确诊癌症；现代社会中三四十岁突遭变故离世的人屡见不鲜。随着年岁渐长，格林发现自己开始不由自主地翻阅讣告，看到许多四五十岁的人因各种原因离世。死亡的觉知能逼问每个人：你一直在拖延的那件真正想完成的事到底是什么？同时，它也提醒人们珍惜当下的特权： - **不再将肉体健康视作理所当然**：格林过去每周坚持游泳三天，长距离游泳是他摆脱杂念的最佳心理疗愈，但他直到瘫痪无法游泳后，才追悔莫及地体会到那是多么巨大的特权。 - **重新定义年轻人的特权**：许多年轻人误以为成功者的地位是特权，却不知拥有健全的体魄、能自由奔跑去健身房，本身就是随时可能被剥夺的巨大财富。 - **让现实生活变得炽烈**：带着生命短暂的倒计时心态去生活，眼前平凡的事物都会带有一种“发光”的强度，让人彻底摆脱麻木。 --- ### [01:24:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=5089s) 亲密关系与崇高的爱：卸下防御与自我的消融 史蒂芬提到，听完格林在车祸中风时被伴侣拯救的经历，他开始反思自己是否在日常生活中将与伴侣的亲密关系视为理所当然，伴侣在关键时刻是真的能挽救自己的生命。格林深情地赞同了这一点，表示伴侣确实救了他的命。两人相伴走过了极其漫长而深厚的岁月（格林风趣地补充说不能公开具体年限，因为伴侣不喜欢听），而“救命之恩”彻底深化并改变了两人的情感连接。 这种深刻的人生体验直接促使格林在新书中破天荒地写下了关于“爱”的章节。过去格林写过权力与诱惑，却从未探讨过纯粹的爱。在这部关于“崇高”（The Sublime）的著作中，他将真正的爱描绘为一种极其罕见而震撼的崇高体验： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 坠入真爱与崇高体验的心智演进过程 accDescr: 展示从放下防御、自我消融，到最终与他人建立深度连接并体会崇高的心智流动过程 subgraph S1["解构防线"] A["放弃自我防线与抗拒心理<br/>(Dismantle Defenses)"] B["直面暴露脆弱带来的潜在伤痛<br/>(Vulnerability & Pain)"] end subgraph S2["坠入与消融"] C["任由自己深度沦陷坠入<br/>(Falling Process)"] D["自我意识的彻底消解<br/>(Ego Dissolution)"] end subgraph S3["崇高连接"] E["在对方面前视其重于自身"] F["达成灵魂深处的崇高连接<br/>(Sublime Connection)"] end A --> B B --> C C --> D D --> E E --> F ``` 格林感叹，当代人在亲密关系中普遍缺失这种崇高体验。现代人极度害怕受伤，筑起厚重的情感高墙，追求刀枪不入的防御姿态，然而正是这种对痛苦的规避，残忍地切断了生命中最丰富、最深刻的体验。唯有彻底放下防御与抗拒，任由自尊在另一个人面前消融，体会到爱对方甚至超越在乎自己本身，才能领略生命至高无上的崇高感。 --- ### [01:27:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=5221s) 直面内心的阴暗念头：自罪梦境、自我怀疑与身体受限后的挣扎 针对史蒂芬关于“如何应对内心阴暗念头”的提问，格林罕见地剖白了自己内心深处的梦魇与精神挣扎。在梦境中，他常常被荒诞而沉重的负罪感折磨，例如在噩梦中惊恐地怀疑自己是否杀了人、警察是否在追捕自己，并在为名誉即将毁于一旦的极端恐惧中惊醒。而在现实思维中，自我怀疑（self-doubt）与抑郁情绪更是纠缠了他一生。 即使早已功成名就，格林依然长期与“不配得感”搏斗。他总是在内心深处怀疑自己的成就，怀疑自己的作品是否真有价值，苛责自己不配拥有如今的赞誉。回望漫长而困顿的早年岁月，他坦言自己从未成为一个懂得包容自我的“好父母”，反而对自己极其苛刻，总是在脑海中不断逼迫自己“你必须做得更好”。 更严酷的阴暗念头则直接源于身体的残疾。当失去徒步、游泳、骑自行车和正常旅行的能力后，格林不得不直面最虚无的痛苦拷问：“当一个人连这些基本乐趣都被剥夺时，活着究竟还有没有意义？相比于如此残缺地活着，死亡是否并不那么可怕？”每当这种想要放弃生命的极端念头浮现时，格林只能一次又一次在内心深处与自己对话，竭尽全力将自己从虚无与绝望的深渊边缘拉扯回来。 ### [01:29:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=5368s) 对抗自我怀疑：从行动中构建存在的证据 主持人设想了一个场景并向罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）提问：如果两人处境完全相同，主持人也遭遇了身体机能丧失、无法再骑自行车、无法做过去能做的事，陷入“生命是否还值得活下去”的虚无与自我怀疑中，并且对过往写过的作品产生动摇，格林会给出什么建议？格林给出的第一个处方是：**将目光聚焦于真实的创造与产出上**。生活中充斥着夸夸其谈、靠吹嘘粉饰自我却一事无成的人，而真正踏实造就了作品、建立了播客、将构想化为现实的人，已经创造了能够超越肉体寿命而永存的纪念碑（memento）。他强调，必须意识到绝大多数人终其一生甚至未能走出被窝去实现任何实质成就，因此为自己亲手打造的东西感到自豪，是击退虚无感的第一道防线。 随后格林将视角拓展到了生存本身的宏大尺度。肉体终究会消亡，死后世界无人知晓，但在宇宙尺度下，“活着”这件事情本身的概率就堪称荒谬绝伦。在他正在撰写的新书里，有一整章专门计算了人类诞生的概率：从地球上最原始的单细胞生命孕育，历经数十亿年的漫长演化，最终促成今天的个体坐在此处交谈，其概率微小到不可思议。仅凭这一事实——你拥有意识，能亲眼看见天空——本身就是一场令人震颤的奇迹。 格林进一步谈到了自杀倾向这一沉重的话题。他在三十多岁初至中叶时，因为迟迟看不到人生的成就与希望，也曾深陷强烈的绝望与轻生念头，最终是“坚信自己未来仍能有所作为”的信念将他拽出了深渊。然而，格林深知对于那些已经滑向深渊、丧失了这种内在能量的人来说，单纯告诉他们“生命是不可思议的奇迹”毫无意义，因为这种空洞的宏大叙事无法与他们产生情绪上的共鸣。针对如何真正帮助抑郁与绝望者，主持人和格林达成了一致的见解：言语说教是苍白无力的，必须促使他们迈出微小的一步，通过哪怕极其微不足道、切实的具体行动，为自己创造出能证明自我价值的“证据”。只有当这一行动让他们产生一丝对自己的信心时，负向的心理螺旋才有可能逆转。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 走出自我怀疑与负向心理螺旋的路径 accDescr: 展示从认知困境到通过具体行动扭转心理螺旋的过程 subgraph Trap["虚无与抑郁陷阱"] A["身体机能受损 / 虚无感"] --> B["陷入极度自我怀疑与自杀念头"] B --> C["外界空洞说教无法产生情感共鸣"] end subgraph Solution["破局与逆转机制"] D["聚焦既有实质产出与存在概率的宏大事实"] E["跨出极微小的第一步行动"] F["亲手创造出自我价值的切实例证"] G["获得微弱却真实的自我认同"] H["扭转心理下行螺旋，重构生命价值"] end C -.->|"需要转化为具体动作"| E D --> E E --> F F --> G G --> H ``` ### [01:33:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=5625s) 《崇高》的诞生：从中风绝境到日常超越 主持人询问格林当前正在撰写的新作《崇高》（*The Sublime*），是否正是由于遭遇中风、苦苦思索“生命为何值得活着”而萌生的灵感。格林坦言，其实早在约 20 年前，他在阅读了一本相关主题的著作后就深受触动，书中将“崇高”（the sublime）定义为一种难以用言语名状、彻底超越人类日常平庸经验的体验。他原本计划将其作为继《战争的33条战略》（*The 33 Strategies of War*）之后的第四部著作，但出版计划屡次被新合作打断——先是与说唱歌手 50 Cent 合作撰写了《第50条法则》（*The 50th Law*），随后又投入到《精要主义/大师》（*Mastery*）的创作中，导致该书被一再搁置。不过，“崇高”的主线从未中断，在《第50条法则》和《人性法则》（*The Laws of Human Nature*）的最终章里，格林探讨的核心正是直面死亡与生命有限性的崇高感。具讽刺意味的是，在写完《人性法则》终章仅仅两个半月后，格林就突发中风，险些丧命。 这场劫难彻底摧毁了他原先对新书的宏大构想： - **原计划的外部探险**：徒步穿越戈壁沙漠（Gobi Desert）、前往新西兰与巨鲸同游、远赴火地群岛（Tierra del Fuego），通过身临极致的自然险境来收集崇高体验。 - **现实的身体局限**：半身瘫痪后，游泳会直接溺水，探险彻底成为妄想。他如今只能被困在自家书房的方寸桌前。 - **塞翁失马的升华**：格林指出，恰恰是这种残酷的肉体禁锢，迫使他完全依靠大脑、书籍、对窗外飞鸟的观察以及对世间大众命运的共情来写作，反而让《崇高》这本书变得深刻厚重得多。濒死体验就像是脑海中敲响的警钟，告诫他决不能再拖延。 格林详细分享了他如何在日常琐事与理论沉思中探寻崇高。例如，他正在撰写关于古希腊守护神/灵性（Daemon）的一章。在希腊神话及现代心理学探讨中，Daemon 常被视作每个人与生俱来、在暗中指引人生使命的“第二自我”或“更高阶的自我”。深入挖掘这一概念让他每日兴奋不已，成为维持他求生意志的支柱。此外，在撰写关于动物与跨物种沟通的一章后，他看待自家猫咪和窗外鸟类的眼光被彻底重塑。对于中风患者而言，除了身体机能的骤降，最致命的敌人是毁灭性的重度抑郁症，而沉浸在对“崇高”与日常微小奇迹的探索中，成为了将他从病后抑郁深渊中彻底打捞出来的救命稻草。 ### [01:38:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=5886s) 贯穿一生的遗泽：剥离幻觉，看清现实 主持人提出终极问题：格林过往的每一本书虽然主题各异，但彼此之间都隐约存在脉络。如果这一天是他在地球上的最后一日，他最想留给这个世界的终极核心讯息是什么？ 面对这个问题，格林思索后给出了极具个人哲学色彩的回答：**他毕生所有作品的真正贯穿主线，就是“生命的严酷现实”（the reality of our life）**。人类总是沉溺于自欺欺人、虚幻的臆想和廉价的捷径之中，而他的使命就是剥离一切温情脉脉的伪装，揭示世界的客观本质： - **洞察人性真相**：人类本质上是一种动物，有其特定的行为规律、受诱惑的机制与反感的触发点； - **摒弃成功幻觉**：实现人生目标必须依靠清醒的战略，而不是盲目的祈祷； - **拒绝平庸速成**：真正的专精与大师境界（Mastery）需要漫长苦修，市面上声称依靠药物、走捷径或“黑客思维”就能轻易登顶的说辞全是彻头彻尾的谎言。 格林总结道，他的终极讯息便是直面真实的世界。这种剥离了幻想的现实非但不是丑陋的，反而蕴含着最坚实的力量。 ### [01:39:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=5969s) 认清现实：告别幻想与把生活当作博弈 罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）指出，客观现实本身谈不上美或不美，它只是单纯的存在。真正接纳世界的本来面目、如实看待一切，是一种极具解脱感的体验，从某种意义上来说，这种与现实的深度连接本身就是一种美。许多人之所以痛苦，是因为他们始终活在自己的执念与幻想中：“为什么别人不能对我更好点？”“为什么没有人告诉我答案？”“为什么他们不把机会直接给我？”“为什么我还不成功？”格林坦言，破除一切虚妄的幻想、直面生活的本来样貌，正是贯穿他所有著作的核心主线。 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）顺着这个思路提问：将生活看作一场“游戏”（博弈），弄清规则并在其中游刃有余地竞争，而不是一味抗议游戏规则的不公，是否是一种更健康的生存态度？格林毫不犹豫地予以肯定，并引用了美国左翼激进社区组织战略家索尔·阿林斯基（Saul Alinsky）的经典著作《激进分子守则》（*Rules for Radicals*）。阿林斯基曾是工会组织的顶级谋略家，如果他活在今天，必定极度厌恶当下网络上泛滥的道德姿态与“道德说教”（virtue signaling）。阿林斯基的名言指出：若真想改变社会、消除不公，你就必须成为一名战略家；这是一场持久的战斗，你必须学会组织群众，掌握那些真正能在现实中撬动变革的残酷法则。 格林进一步强调，任何涉及规则与谋略的领域本质上都是一场博弈。那些满脑子道德教条、自以为“正义在握就理应心想事成”的人，不过是一群沉浸在虚幻中的傻子： - **真正的变革者**：愿意弄脏双手，梳理清晰的路径（如 A、B、C、D 环环相扣的步骤），通过具体的策略组织现实行动。 - **道德作秀者**：拒绝面对现实的复杂性，仅仅在口头上标榜圣人光环，这种人玩的只是表象的过家家，而非真正成事的现实游戏。 --- ### [01:41:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=6103s) 战略的反义词是愚蠢：情绪化如何摧毁理性 针对主持人关于“普通人如果不讲战略，他们究竟在做什么”的疑问，格林剖析了大众常见的行为误区。从某种程度上说，每个人每天都在做微观战略——早上醒来决定吃什么、如何做早餐、穿什么衣服、规划日程，这都是谋略的本能表现。然而，绝大多数人的战略极其低效，充斥着自我欺骗与幻想，其根本根源在于无法摆脱“情绪化驱动”。 格林明确表示，他并不排斥人类的情感，情感在他的新书构想中也扮演着关键角色，但若想成事，情绪绝不能凌驾于理性之上。战略思维的核心在于“延迟反应并逆转被动局面”： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 战略性应对 vs 情绪化反应对比 accDescr: 展示遇到挑衅时，情绪化反击与抽身复盘两种完全不同的应对机制。 subgraph REACT["情绪化本能（低效 / 愚蠢）"] A["遭遇挑衅或外界施压"] --> B["本能被激怒、针锋相对"] B --> C["陷入无休止纠缠与对抗"] C --> D["丧失对局面的控制权"] end subgraph STRAT["战略性抽身（理性 / 掌局）"] E["遭遇挑衅或外界施压"] --> F["抽身退后一步：拒绝即时反应"] F --> G["明确核心目标：如何让对手闭嘴或出局"] G --> H["推演对手心理与出奇制胜的角度"] H --> I["掌握主导权并精准解决冲突"] end ``` 格林原本在完成《诱惑的艺术》（*The Art of Seduction*）后计划撰写一本关于“人类愚蠢”（human stupidity）的著作。在他看来，“缺乏战略思维”的直接等义词就是“愚蠢”。纵观人类历史，那些糟糕的战略、毫无必要的战争以及灾难性的政治决策，全都由缺乏战略洞察的愚蠢之人造成，给世界带来了极其深重的灾难。 --- ### [01:44:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=6254s) 超脱情绪的实践法则：从“禅意防御”到 Whoop 赞助插播 谈到如何培养超脱即时情绪、居高临下审视局面的能力，格林承认这在年轻时极其困难——由于荷尔蒙涌动、精力过剩和肾上腺素的激增，年轻人很容易一点就着；随着阅历增长，这种能力才逐渐易于掌握。面对主持人的追问，格林分享了他亲身实践的几项情绪解离法则： - **进入“禅意城堡”（Zen mode）**：当遇到带刺、挑衅的话语时，立刻开启心理防御，将对方的攻击看作无意义的空气和字句，告诫自己：“这只是词句，与我无关；我身居坚不可摧的心灵城堡中，波澜不惊。” - **设置情绪缓冲带**：每当被彻底激怒、写下情绪激烈的回击邮件时，绝不立即点击发送，而是强制存入草稿箱。一周后再回看，往往会庆幸自己当初没有冲动行事。 - **区分他人与自我**：依靠长期的冥想训练建立边界感，意识到“这是他们的问题，不是我的问题；他们拥有愚蠢的想法，并不代表我需要为他们的愚蠢买单”。 随后，主持人插入了播客赞助商 Whoop 的口播推荐。巴特利特提到自己是 Whoop 的投资人，并分享了近期与 Whoop 绩效副总裁克里斯汀·霍尔姆斯（Kristen Holmes）关于昼夜节律与睡眠的深度对话。研究表明，每欠下 45 分钟的“睡眠债”，个人的决策能力就会下降高达 10%；慢性睡眠不足会严重削弱一个人作为管理者、伴侣或朋友的表现。该设备通过监测与辅导帮助用户改善睡眠质量（提供 30 天无风险试用）。 --- ### [01:46:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=6399s) 从美国政治极化到美资服饰品牌的战略盲区 口播结束后，主持人将话题转向了当下高度极化的美国政治生态。相较于英国政治的平淡乏味，美国当下的政局宛如一场跌宕起伏的真人秀。2024 年正值唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）与乔·拜登（Joe Biden）再次对决的大选之年，社会两极分化严重。主持人坦言自己感到陷入夹缝：左翼走得过于极端令他无法产生共鸣，而右翼的政治主张同样让他无法认同。他向格林请教：如何运用其权力与人性法则的研究，来剖析当下的政治分裂与时代精神？ 格林首先直白地坦陈自己的偏见，指出人不可能拥有绝对客观的视角。他坦言自己年轻时政治立场偏向极端左翼，因此天然带有自由主义的底色与情感触发点。但抛开派系立场，他更深切担忧的是当下整体的“时代精神”（zeitgeist）与深层社会心理。 为了说明这种敏锐的战略感知，格林分享了一段鲜为人知的跨界经历：他曾出任知名上市服装品牌 American Apparel 的董事会成员。当时该公司的创始人兼 CEO 是《权力 48 条法则》的忠实读者，正是看中了他的战略推演能力才邀请他加入。在任职期间，格林敏锐地察觉到公司正在不可逆转地走下坡路： - **核心客群的脆弱性**：品牌的核心消费者集中在 18 至 24 岁的年轻女性群体，这一人群的审美偏好极易受病毒式潮流影响，流变极其迅速。 - **模式陈旧与代际断层**：American Apparel 早期赖以成名的营销风格与视觉标签，正逐渐沦为老套陈腐的陈词滥调（cliché），根本无法有效辐射即将崛起的新一代年轻人——也就是如今的 Z 世代（Gen Z）。为了扭转这种与时代精神脱节的困局，格林当时向管理层提出了推行战略研讨闭门会的应对方案。 ### [01:49:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=6545s) 商业短视与现代政治的宏大叙事危机 Robert Greene 回顾了自己曾经向某位企业首席执行官做年度战略汇报的经历。当时他提议团队跳脱出日常事务的琐碎泥潭，退后一步思考品牌的长远走向与未来适应策略，结果却被对方以“我们根本不需要这些”为由轻率驳回。这让他彻底看清了大企业之所以沉闷、失败且令人厌烦的核心症结：上市公司被华尔街季报牵着鼻子走，只顾应对眼前的财报数字与投资人的情绪波动，根本没有余裕去构建一两年甚至更久远的长期愿景，毕竟在管理层眼中“一两年后公司在不在都两说”。 政治生态同样深陷这种极度短视的恶性循环。政客们被两到四年的选举周期死死锁死，失去了登高望远的能力，导致整个国家陷入严重的身份认同危机与政治动荡。Robert 指出，在他成长的年代，人们对政党有着扎实的信任与根基——民主党代表工会、蓝领工人与小人物（从富兰克林·罗斯福到肯尼迪和约翰逊皆是如此），而共和党代表大企业与减税诉求。然而在当下的美国，选民与政党之间毫无深层纽带可言，呈现出高度的摇摆与易变：同一个人可以在奥巴马、特朗普、拜登之间来回摇摆投票。这并非公众的过错，而是政治体制已经丧失了创造“何为美国人”这一共同神话与愿景的能力。 政党如果仅仅沦为“反对一切”的工具，就注定走向空心化。如今的共和党在 Robert 看来已沦为对唐纳德·特朗普言听计从的附庸，而民主党则陷入了机械罗列施政清单的理智陷阱。Robert 直言他厌倦了听到政客们宣泄仇恨、抱怨与抵触，他渴望听到的是“你们究竟想要建立一个怎样的国家”。特朗普的成功在于他能在情感与直觉层面深度击中受众，而民主党却仍试图用通胀率、就业岗位等枯燥的数据去说服大众的大脑。真正的领导者必须具备连接人心的宏大叙事能力，在纷乱的细分利益群体之上提供能产生共鸣的精神黏合剂，否则整个政治架构终将分崩离析。 - **季报思维的毒瘤**：上市公司受制于短期资本市场的反馈，放弃了对组织核心愿景的长期规划。 - **政治忠诚的瓦解**：两党失去了鲜明的阶级代表性与价值观根基，导致选民在不同极端政治人物之间大幅摇摆。 - **神话与愿景的缺失**：执政者习惯于诉诸仇恨与对立，未能勾勒出富有感染力的国家精神图景。 - **情绪共鸣 vs 逻辑清单**：政治说服力的核心在于击中选民的情感与直觉，单纯堆砌政策数字无法真正凝聚人心。 --- ### [01:54:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=6841s) 压轴提问：改变过去十年的那一群连锁意外 按照节目的收尾惯例，上一位嘉宾留下了一个严苛的提问：“如果不允许回答‘毫无遗憾’，你最想改变过去十年中的哪一件事？为什么？”面对这一突如其来的问题，Robert 没有选择外交辞令，而是坦率地回答：他希望自己能够阻止那场改变其人生轨迹的中风。 他动情地反省，在创作《人类天性的法则》（The Laws of Human Nature）期间，自己毫无节制地过度透支心力。如果能重来一次，他会放慢创作节奏，认清肉身凡胎的极限，对自己宽容一些。随后，Robert 详述了导致中风发生的那场荒诞且残酷的连锁事件： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Robert Greene 中风的诱因连锁图 accDescr: 展示了从长期工作透支到偶发黄蜂蜇伤、误用药物最终诱发中风的因果链条。 subgraph HealthState["生理基础与慢性负荷"] A["高强度写作《人类天性的法则》耗尽精力"] --> B["长期未受控的高血压"] B --> C["纽约之行意外遗忘降压药"] end subgraph TriggerEvent["突发偶然事件"] C --> D["公园徒步时颈部被黄蜂蜇伤"] D --> E["5天后局部严重红肿发炎剧痛"] end subgraph MedicalIntervention["药物诱因与终局"] E --> F["医生开具大剂量类固醇激素（泼尼松）"] F --> G["血压骤然飙升至危险极值"] G --> H["颈部被蜇伤处精准形成血栓，诱发中风"] end ``` 在这场荒诞的医疗悲剧中，如果他没有把自己逼到崩溃边缘、如果没忘带降压药、如果医生没有给他开具会让血压暴增的泼尼松（Prednisone），或许那场灾难就永远不会降临。 --- ### [01:56:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=6974s) 命运之爱：微小概率与斯多葛式的释然 面对这场由一只黄蜂引发的灾难，主持人询问 Robert 是否已经原谅了这连串荒谬事件及涉事者。Robert 坦言自己必须原谅，甚至幽默地表示他已经彻底原谅了那只黄蜂。他曾特意故地重游，走到当年被蜇伤的地点为那只可能因蜇人而死去的黄蜂默哀致意，向它脆弱的生命表达歉意，并与过往彻底和解。 虽然这与先前“希望阻止中风”的回答看似矛盾，但 Robert 借用了尼采的哲学概念“命运之爱”（Amor Fati）。他认为这一切或许正是冥冥之中的必然：在发病前，自己对肉体的承受力抱有一种狂妄而鲁莽的自信，即使没有中风，这种无视生理极限的透支迟早也会以其他更具毁灭性的方式爆发。中风虽然残酷地夺走了他部分身体机能，但他依然保全了大脑的清醒，得以继续撰写关于“崇高”（The Sublime）的新书。 针对主持人提出的“蝴蝶效应”——历史进程与个体命运往往被云层、飞虫等无法预测的微小偶然彻底改变——Robert 引用了好友兼作家 Ryan Holiday 推广的斯多葛主义哲学。他指出，人类永远无法预测或重构外部的物理偶然性，现实的残酷之处就在于一缕微风都可能改变灾难的轨迹；我们唯一能掌控的，从来不是外界强加给我们的境遇，而是我们在心智层面上如何诠释这些苦难，并选择以何种姿态作出回应。 - **命运之爱（Amor Fati）的践行**：停止对沉没伤害的怨恨，承认苦难是重塑自我的必然代价。 - **微小偶发事件的毁灭性**：自然界与历史进程中不可控的极小变量，往往对个体轨迹造成不可逆的巨幅冲击。 - **斯多葛主义的心智边界**：人类无法干预物理现实的随机发难，但完全拥有主导自身心理反应与认知维度的自由。 ### [01:58:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=7126s) 《崇高》的漫长创作旅程与“慢火慢炖”的智慧 Steven Bartlett 对 Robert Greene 即将问世的新书《崇高》（*The Sublime*）表达了强烈的期待与敬意，直言如果它能延续以往作品的水准，那么漫长的等待绝对是值得的。Steven 提到，在正式录制之前 Greene 曾与他聊起创作进展，透露自己已经为这本书倾注了四年的心血。Greene 随即微笑着纠正并补充了具体的时间表：实际上到现在已经写了四年半，预计还需要一年半的时间才能最终完稿，整本书的前后创作周期将长达整整六年。 面对 Steven 对其毅力的由衷钦佩，Greene 毫无保留地道出了光环背后的真实困境与身体局限。在经历中风后，他的生理机能受到了不可逆的影响：“你要明白，史蒂芬，我现在没法正常打字了。我以前打字速度非常快，过去我也常靠徒步登山来理清思绪，但现在这些我都做不到了。”这种身体障碍并没有让他停下脚步，而是迫使他建立起一套极其磨炼耐心的全新工作流：他必须先用笔在纸上一字一句手写草稿，在纸面上手动修改，然后对着电脑口述转录，最后再仅用一只手在电脑前艰难地逐行润色。 Greene 坦言，失去了通过徒步放空大脑的途径，每道工序都变得异常艰辛，所有事情花费的时间都变成了原本的一点五倍。如果身体健全，这可能只是一部耗时四到五年的作品。 Steven 由此指出，慢下来并不完全是坏事——正如 Greene 之前关于人生节奏的见解，放慢步调有时反而能让人更深地享受过程，打磨出更卓越的成果。Greene 对此深表赞同，生动地借用烹饪打了个比方：“这种‘慢火慢炖’（slower cooking）大概率会让这本书变得更加出色。”对谈的尾声，Steven 感慨 Greene 的每一本书都扎根于那些“富有挑战性却历久弥新的恒久智慧”（challenging but important enduring wisdom），而这正是浮躁的当代社会最为匮乏的养分。在真挚的致敬与感谢声中，这场关于人性、权力、磨难与升华的长谈圆满落下帷幕。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 罗伯特·格林受限后的新书创作流程 accDescr: 展示罗伯特·格林在中风后撰写《崇高》所采用的慢速手工工作流 A["纸笔手工起草"] --> B["纸面手工修改"] B --> C["语音口述录入电脑"] C --> D["单手逐字润色定稿"] ``` - **新书《崇高》（*The Sublime*）创作时间表**：目前已写作 4.5 年，预计还需 1.5 年打磨，整体创作周期长达 6 年。 - **身体机能受限带来的工作流剧变**：无法自如打字、无法通过户外登山清理思绪；所有创作必须依靠手写、手改、口述录入与单手编辑完成，工作耗时延长至平时的 1.5 倍左右。 - **“慢火慢炖”（Slower Cooking）的哲学**：虽然生理限制拖慢了产出速度，但被动减速却赋予了思想更充分的沉淀空间，使作品最终拥有超越快速消费时代的恒久价值。 ## Notable quotes > [07:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=458s) 人只有在看清自己究竟是什么模样时，才能够变得更好。 — 安东·契诃夫（罗伯特·格林引用） > [10:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=654s) 我不是什么圣人，我也不是自己臆想中的完美典范，我本质上就是一个带着缺陷的动物。 — 罗伯特·格林 > [15:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=953s) 当别人开始定义你是谁时，你必须像对待黏土一样重塑你的个性和本质；你是一个艺术家，永远不要掉进别人设下的剧本陷阱里。 — 罗伯特·格林 > [32:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=1920s) 分心往往伪装成机遇而来。 — 史蒂芬·巴特利特（引用） > [43:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2610s) 作为人类，就意味着我们必须撒谎。 — 罗伯特·格林 > [47:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=2841s) 如果你表现软弱且索求甚少，你得到的就微乎其微；但如果你表现强势，提出坚定甚至离谱的要求，你反而会树立相反的印象——人们会认为你底气十足、必定身怀真材实料，进而赢得他们的尊重，而这种尊重最终会转化为切实的筹码。 — 罗伯特·格林（史蒂芬·巴特利特引用） > [01:07:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4028s) 如果你在遭遇操纵之前就读过《权力的48条法则》，那些人根本不可能得逞。这本书是你人生中最好的盾牌。只要你读懂了它，你就看穿了别人在你身上使用的所有伎俩——他们如何伪装成朋友充当密探、如何隐藏真实意图。它是在为你揭示所有的底牌与套路。 — 罗伯特·格林 > [01:19:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=4747s) 这可能是我生命的最后一个念头，我也许十秒钟之后就会死去。 — 罗伯特·格林 > [01:44:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=6254s) 这只是词句，与我无关；我身居坚不可摧的心灵城堡中，波澜不惊。 — 罗伯特·格林 > [01:44:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=6254s) 这是他们的问题，不是我的问题；他们拥有愚蠢的想法，并不代表我需要为他们的愚蠢买单。 — 罗伯特·格林 > [01:58:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY&t=7126s) 这种‘慢火慢炖’大概率会让这本书变得更加出色。 — 罗伯特·格林 ## Mentioned 罗伯特·格林 (Robert Greene), 史蒂芬·巴特利特 (Steven Bartlett), 《CEO日记》 (The Diary Of A CEO), 《权力的48条法则》 (The 48 Laws of Power), 《人性法则》 (The Laws of Human Nature), 《战争的33条战略》 (The 33 Strategies of War), 《精通》 (Mastery), 《第50条法则》 (The 50th Law), 《诱惑的艺术》 (The Art of Seduction), 《崇高》 (The Sublime), Jay-Z, Kanye West, 安东·契诃夫 (Anton Chekhov), 弗里德里希·尼采 (Friedrich Nietzsche), 安德鲁·休伯曼 (Andrew Huberman), Huberman Lab, 斯坦福大学 (Stanford University), 杰夫·贝佐斯 (Jeff Bezos), 保罗·格雷厄姆 (Paul Graham), 麻省理工学院 (MIT), Y Combinator, 网景 (Netscape), 雅虎 (Yahoo), Viaweb, 50 Cent (柯蒂斯·杰克逊), 亚当·诺伊曼 (Adam Neumann), 孙正义 (Masayoshi Son), 软银集团 (SoftBank), WeWork, 瑞安·霍利迪 (Ryan Holiday), 中央情报局 (CIA), 坦普尔·格兰丁 (Temple Grandin), 史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs), 纽约时报 (The New York Times), 索尔·阿林斯基 (Saul Alinsky), 《激进分子守则》 (Rules for Radicals), Whoop, 克里斯汀·霍尔姆斯 (Kristen Holmes), 唐纳德·特朗普 (Donald Trump), 乔·拜登 (Joe Biden), 巴拉克·奥巴马 (Barack Obama), American Apparel, 富兰克林·罗斯福 (Franklin D. Roosevelt), 约翰·肯尼迪 (John F. Kennedy), 林登·约翰逊 (Lyndon B. Johnson), 泼尼松 (Prednisone) ## Video description Robert Greene is a New York Times bestselling author, whose books include, ‘The 48 Laws of Power’, ’The Art of Seduction’, and ’The 33 Strategies of War’. 00:00 Intro 02:35 Why did you write a book about human nature? 04:34 How do we reverse a lack of self-awareness? 07:01 How to get rid of qualities we don’t like about ourselves 11:55 Where does our dark side come from? 15:29 How to pursue that thing you’ve always wanted to do 27:54 The unseen importance of creating a sense of urgency 29:47 How to know if you’re following a false purpose 36:17 Should a young person just be saying yes to everything? 40:14 How to manage other people that get in the way of what we want to do 43:06 Do we have to lie to be successful? 51:51 How to read someone's body language 54:32 A smile says loads about how someone feels about you 56:51 People's personalities are contagious 57:18 Frenemies, what they mean and how to spot one 01:06:42 What's the most controversial point from your book? 01:09:25 Does equality exist when we all strive for power? 01:12:29 Becoming the best, what it really means 01:18:11 Is death a motivator for you? 01:24:49 The importance of relationships 01:27:01 How to deal with dark thoughts 01:29:09 Advice for people going through self-doubt & hard moments 01:33:17 Why did you write this book, The Sublime? 01:37:43 What would be your parting message to the world? 01:43:34 How can we rise above our emotional reactions? 01:45:15 How has your research influenced how you view politics? 01:52:38 The last guest's question You can purchase the special 25th anniversary edition Robert’s book, ‘The 48 Laws of Power’, here: https://amzn.to/3IEskUh Follow our Shorts channel for more content: https://www.youtube.com/@TheDiaryofaCEOShorts Join this channel to get access to perks: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGq-a57w-aPwyi3pW7XLiHw/join Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Sponsors: WHOOP: https://join.whoop.com/en-uk/CEO Shop the Conversation Cards: https://thediary.com/products/the-cards This episode of The Diary Of A CEO was filmed at Gold Tree Studios, located in the heart of the Sunset Strip, West Hollywood, California [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yrwSOMFZvHY)

[7:38] 安东·契诃夫（罗伯特·格林引用）: 人只有在看清自己究竟是什么模样时，才能够变得更好。 [10:54] 罗伯特·格林: 我不是什么圣人，我也不是自己臆想中的完美典范，我本质上就是一个带着缺陷的动物。 [15:53] 罗伯特·格林: 当别人开始定义你是谁时，你必须像对待黏土一样重塑你的个性和本质；你是一个艺术家，永远不要掉进别人设下的剧本陷阱里。 [32:00] 史蒂芬·巴特利特（引用）: 分心往往伪装成机遇而来。 [43:30] 罗伯特·格林: 作为人类，就意味着我们必须撒谎。 [47:21] 罗伯特·格林（史蒂芬·巴特利特引用）: 如果你表现软弱且索求甚少，你得到的就微乎其微；但如果你表现强势，提出坚定甚至离谱的要求，你反而会树立相反的印象——人们会认为你底气十足、必定身怀真材实料，进而赢得他们的尊重，而这种尊重最终会转化为切实的筹码。 [67:08] 罗伯特·格林: 如果你在遭遇操纵之前就读过《权力的48条法则》，那些人根本不可能得逞。这本书是你人生中最好的盾牌。只要你读懂了它，你就看穿了别人在你身上使用的所有伎俩——他们如何伪装成朋友充当密探、如何隐藏真实意图。它是在为你揭示所有的底牌与套路。 [79:07] 罗伯特·格林: 这可能是我生命的最后一个念头，我也许十秒钟之后就会死去。 [104:14] 罗伯特·格林: 这只是词句，与我无关；我身居坚不可摧的心灵城堡中，波澜不惊。 [104:14] 罗伯特·格林: 这是他们的问题，不是我的问题；他们拥有愚蠢的想法，并不代表我需要为他们的愚蠢买单。 [118:46] 罗伯特·格林: 这种‘慢火慢炖’大概率会让这本书变得更加出色。

[66:20] Robert Greene: Look, if you had The 48 Laws of Power before this person manipulated you, they would have never been able to manipulate you. That book is the best defense you could ever have in your life. It's like a shield. [69:25] Robert Greene: Everybody at their birth has the possibility for following the path that I talk about in Mastery... Everybody is born with a DNA that will never be replicated in the past or in the future... and that uniqueness is a seed. [72:29] Robert Greene: He was a master. It doesn't have to be the best ever. You don't have to be famous and successful. There are grades of this... The sense of 'this was what I was meant to accomplish and I'm following it'—I do believe anybody can have that level of power. [78:11] Robert Greene: I do my morning meditation... this could be my last thought. I could die 10 seconds from now. What do I want in my head in those last seconds? Do I want to have some petty little thought... or do I want to have something else greater? [85:25] Robert Greene: Let go of your defenses. Let go of your resistance. Let yourself go into that process of falling. Feel what it feels like to have your ego dissolved in the presence of another person and care more about them than you care about yourself. [98:06] Robert Greene: All of my books, the through line is: this is what the world is really like. It's not ugly. It's not beautiful. It just is. And it's great to just relate to the world as it is.

[0:00] You need the skill. If there's somebody [0:02] in your life and you don't know whether [0:03] they're a snake or that they're [0:05] genuinely your friend, approach them [0:07] from an angle and surprise them and for [0:09] a second you detect what we call fake. [0:12] You should become aware of that. Robert [0:15] Greene is one of the best-selling [0:16] authors in history. [0:17] internationally renowned expert on power [0:20] strategies. [0:20] He's been referenced in songs by Jay-Z, [0:23] Kanye West, [0:24] the godfather of power, seduction, [0:26] mastery. We have this idea that if I [0:28] apply myself really hard and I should be [0:30] successful, but I kept noticing this [0:32] blind spot that people had. They were [0:34] terrible in dealing with people. And if [0:37] you're not careful and constantly [0:39] misreading people, they could manipulate [0:41] you. They could wound you. But if you [0:43] follow the process that I lay out, it [0:44] will be the best defense you could ever [0:46] have in your life. You know all the [0:48] tricks people are playing on you. We [0:50] have to learn to look behind people's [0:52] masks. To be a human being means we lie. [0:55] But you know what doesn't lie? Body [0:57] language. Eyes are hard to lie. The [1:00] smile tells you a hundred different [1:03] things if you know how to read it. But [1:04] the problem that you have is you think [1:06] it's a natural skill. I'm a human being. [1:08] I know how to read people. You don't. [1:10] You're operating in darkness, but I do [1:12] believe everybody has that potential. [1:15] So, the first thing you do is [1:18] frenemies. Do we all have frenemies? [1:21] Yes. They sabotage you, hurt you, and [1:24] you don't want them in your life. And [1:25] one common sign of a frenemy is they're [1:32] It's absolutely crazy to me that so many [1:34] of you have decided to watch our show [1:36] and so many of you have decided to [1:37] subscribe to our show. We now have 5 [1:39] million subscribers on YouTube, which is [1:41] a number that I just can't comprehend [1:43] and it's a dream that I absolutely never [1:45] could have had. We started The Diary of [1:47] a CEO just over 3 years ago now and in [1:49] my wildest expectations we might have [1:51] had a hundred thousand subscribers by [1:53] now. So, you can imagine how shocked I [1:55] am that so many of you have chosen to [1:58] tune into these conversations every week [2:00] and spend some time with us. So, thank [2:03] you. And I made a deal with you. I made [2:04] a deal that if you subscribe to the [2:06] show, that we would continue to raise [2:08] the bar. And in 2024, [2:11] we're going to raise the bar like never [2:12] before. I've been working for the last 9 [2:14] months on a surprise for all of you that [2:17] have subscribed to the show, and I'm [2:18] very excited to deliver that for you. [2:21] The production's going to change. We're [2:22] going to go even further with our [2:23] guests, and we're going to tell even [2:25] more global stories. So, as always, if [2:28] you appreciate what we're doing here, [2:29] the simple free favor I'll ask from you [2:32] is to hit the subscribe button. Let's [2:34] get on with the episode. [2:42] Robert, you wrote a book about human [2:44] nature in 2018 called The Laws of Human [2:47] Nature. [2:48] Why did you write that book? [2:52] Well, it's the fruit of a lot of [2:54] experiences that I've had. Um [2:57] So, I wrote The 48 Laws of Power. And [2:59] prior to that book, I was somebody who [3:01] never had any power in life. I was sort [3:03] of a failure, you know, I had gone [3:06] through so many different jobs. And then [3:08] all of a sudden, I write this one book, [3:10] and people are coming to me for advice. [3:12] It was kind of shocking, right? [3:14] And I started noticing a trend. And the [3:17] trend is [3:18] we live in this intense technological [3:21] age where we have so much power at our [3:23] fingertips, right? And we It's so easy [3:26] to get attention, and on on and on. And [3:30] we have this idea that everything in [3:32] life should be easy. It's all about just [3:35] well, if I apply myself really hard, I [3:38] should be successful. [3:39] But I kept noticing this blind spot that [3:41] people had. They were terrible in [3:44] dealing with people. They were making [3:46] all of these mistakes. [3:48] Everybody wears a mask. You wear wear I [3:50] wear a mask when we're out in the public [3:52] realm, we don't exactly say what we [3:54] think, right? We We're all a bit [3:56] strategic. [3:58] And if you're not careful, you're [4:00] constantly saying the wrong things, [4:02] you're constantly misreading people, [4:04] you're doing things at your job that you [4:06] think are going to impress, but they [4:08] have the opposite effect, and then [4:10] something bad happens and you're [4:11] confused and you're emotional. [4:14] It was like this circle atmosphere of [4:16] pain around the globe of people [4:18] suffering because they don't know how to [4:20] handle in their lives. [4:23] And because we're so virtual, [4:25] and we're so locked in our phones, that [4:27] we're becoming worse and worse at [4:29] reading other people, at understanding [4:31] them. You know, when I'm sitting across [4:33] from you, I can see your body language, [4:35] I can see your non-verbals, I can see [4:37] all sorts of things, I can deal with you [4:39] as a human. [4:40] But when I spend 95% of my time behind a [4:43] screen, da da da da da, you know, and [4:45] that's even how I date, [4:47] basic human skills of understanding, of [4:50] connecting, of empathy, of reading, [4:52] they're getting hopelessly degraded. [4:54] That's my long-winded answer for why I [4:56] wrote that book. [4:58] If there's someone listening out there [4:59] and they can relate to certain parts of [5:02] what you've just said, maybe it's a lack [5:03] of their own self-awareness or maybe [5:05] they have poor sort of awareness of [5:07] others, [5:09] is there a starting place to reversing [5:11] that? Is there maybe a most important [5:13] skill that we need to master as at the [5:15] foundation of that transformation? [5:17] very simple. It's to get down on your [5:19] hands and knees and realize you're bad [5:21] at dealing with people. [5:23] The problem that you have is you think [5:24] that it's a natural skill. Yeah, I'm [5:26] okay at it, I just kind of wing it, I [5:28] understand what I'm doing, I'm a human [5:30] being, I know I I I know how to read [5:31] people, etc. You don't. You're operating [5:34] in darkness, you're groping around. Just [5:37] realize, first of all, that you need [5:40] this skill. [5:41] And once you realize that, the first [5:43] thing you do is you look inward. You [5:45] look at your own nature, you look at the [5:48] things that I write about in the book [5:49] about narcissism, [5:51] about irrationality, and instead of [5:54] searching for the people around you that [5:56] fit those categories, look at yourself. [5:59] So, it all begins with self-awareness. [6:01] You are the best subject of human [6:03] nature. [6:04] So, when I was writing this book, [6:07] it was actually quite painful. [6:09] So, I'm writing a chapter on narcissism, [6:12] one of the longest chapters in the book [6:14] because it's a very important subject. [6:16] And I'm telling myself, [6:18] "Robert, you're quite a narcissist. You [6:20] didn't think of yourself that way, but [6:21] you have all of these classic tendencies [6:23] that you're writing about in the book." [6:25] It was painful. But, in order to come to [6:28] understand narcissism in other people, I [6:29] had to sort of understand it in myself. [6:32] So, step number one is [6:35] I need this knowledge. I'm actually not [6:37] very good with dealing with people. It's [6:38] caused me problems. Go back and review [6:41] the problems and the mistakes you've [6:42] made, mistakes I've made as well many, [6:45] many times. And then, [6:48] when you realize that you want this [6:49] knowledge, then you begin by looking [6:51] inward. [6:53] But, if you think that [6:54] that it's not needed, that you're not [6:55] it's just oh, it's kind of interesting [6:57] or maybe I'll sort of dabble in it, it [6:59] won't mean anything to you. You have to [7:01] feel that pain that you've been through [7:03] in life, and it's kind of an ongoing [7:05] pain. It's one that I still have even [7:07] though I wrote the book, where I misread [7:10] people, [7:11] where I inadvertently hurt them when I [7:12] didn't mean to hurt them, you know? And [7:14] I feel that, and I suffer from it. And [7:16] so, the pain that you feel, the emotions [7:19] that that this turns up, motivate you [7:21] then to become better at understanding [7:23] other people. [7:24] What if you find things in yourself, [7:26] like you said, that you don't like? You [7:28] find [7:29] narcissism in yourself, you find [7:31] darkness in yourself. What are we meant [7:33] to do with that? Are we meant to [7:35] heal it, resolve it? [7:38] You're meant to look at it. You're meant [7:40] to confront it. Um I mean, I I have in [7:43] the book a quote from the great writer [7:44] Anton Chekhov that [7:46] people can't begin to change themselves [7:48] until they know who they are, until they [7:50] understand themselves. Right? So, we all [7:53] want to change. We all want to be better [7:54] at ourselves. [7:56] But until we know who we are, until we [7:58] realize our flaws and our weaknesses. [8:00] So, the main law of human nature, if I [8:03] could summarize it, is [8:05] we don't like to look at ourselves. It's [8:07] always the other person. They're the [8:09] ones with the problem. They're the ones [8:11] who are aggressive or [8:12] passive-aggressive. They're the ones who [8:14] feel envy. They're the ones who are [8:15] rational. But me, no. No, I'm a paragon [8:19] of virtue. I'm always moral. I'm always [8:21] good. I'm always smart, etc. So, it's [8:24] The point isn't to beat yourself up and [8:26] go, "Damn it, I'm an awful human being." [8:29] We're all humans, come from the same [8:32] source. We all have the same ancestors. [8:35] Our We all have the same flaws in our [8:37] brain. It's not like you're exceptional. [8:39] It's not like you're the one person that [8:42] doesn't have a narcissism, that doesn't [8:44] have self-absorption. [8:45] So, realizing that you're connected to [8:47] all these people, that we all have these [8:49] flaws and weaknesses, is actually not a [8:52] bad thing. It's a good thing. And then [8:54] by examining yourself deeply, you can [8:57] begin to change some of these things. [8:59] You know, it's just like you I don't go [9:01] like, "Oh, damn it, I'm a narcissist. [9:04] I'm I'm self-absorbed. I think a lot [9:05] about myself. I love talking about [9:07] myself." Which is something I'm afraid I [9:09] do like to do. Right? The point isn't [9:13] well, oh well, I'm just depressed. [9:15] There's nothing I can do. Once I'm aware [9:17] of it, I can begin to change it. But if [9:20] I'm always repressing it, if I'm always [9:22] thinking, "No, I'm good. I don't have [9:24] those problems." Then if you can't see [9:26] them, how can you change them? How can [9:28] you deal with them? How can you become a [9:29] better person? How can you change those [9:31] qualities that you don't want? [9:33] One of the most important things in the [9:35] laws of human nature is that you have [9:37] patterns that you are compulsive. [9:41] It comes from your character. These [9:42] patterns that you see in your intimate [9:44] relationships. You always fall for the [9:47] wrong person or you sometimes fall for [9:48] the wrong person. You see it in your [9:50] work world. I make these mistakes. I get [9:53] fired for this reason, etc., etc. And [9:55] there are good patterns, but we tend to [9:57] repeat over and over and over again [9:59] these these sort of compulsive behavior. [10:02] Being aware of these patterns, being [10:04] aware of these things, you can now begin [10:06] to you have the power to change them. [10:10] A lot of people [10:12] climb the mountain of awareness and I [10:14] get I was thinking about people in my [10:15] life that I've climbed the mountain of [10:16] awareness and in my own life hill things [10:18] that I'm aware of, darkness within me [10:20] that I'm aware of or challenges or [10:22] patterns I'm aware of. [10:24] Taking the next step from So, I think [10:27] becoming aware is painful. [10:28] And then doing something about it is [10:30] difficult. [10:32] It's painful because [10:34] there's a lot of cognitive dissonance [10:35] associated with figuring out that you're [10:37] not who you want to be. [10:39] You know, and then doing something about [10:42] it requires breaking what feels like old [10:45] neurological pathways in my brain. [10:47] You know, trigger. You think about the [10:50] habit cycle. How do I breaking that is [10:52] difficult. [10:54] I I look at it very differently, I'm [10:56] afraid. So, I think actually it's worse [10:59] when you're not aware of who you are. [11:01] When you walk around in this world with [11:04] all of these false ideas about who you [11:06] are. [11:07] You you don't even know who you are. [11:08] You're wearing this mask, you're not [11:10] authentic. You're behaving in the world [11:12] as if you're somebody else. [11:14] And you're not aware of that, but it's [11:16] causing you pain. It's making you suffer [11:18] because you're not aware of of the real [11:20] person that you are. You're not [11:21] authentic. [11:23] And coming to terms with some of these [11:25] dark qualities is actually a very [11:28] enlightening experience. It's actually [11:30] can be euphoric. You go, [11:32] I am an animal. I'm not the saint. I'm [11:35] not this paragon that I thought I was. [11:37] I'm an animal with flaws. [11:40] I can embrace that. We're all like that [11:43] and it's a good thing and feeling like [11:45] you have this and you're coming to terms [11:47] with it. I have a chapter on the dark [11:49] side of human nature. [11:51] Everybody has a shadow side. I have it, [11:53] you have it, right? [11:55] And seeing that shadow side, which is [11:58] something you've been repressing since [11:59] childhood and dealing with it and [12:01] confronting with it is actually one of [12:03] the most wonderful experiences you can [12:06] have in life because repressing all of [12:08] these things is what is making you [12:10] miserable in life. But coming to terms [12:13] with who you are and being aware of it [12:16] is actually what liberating, you know? [12:19] Where Where does it come from, uh [12:21] dark side, what you talk about in [12:22] chapter nine of the book? [12:26] Well, I think it comes from uh [12:28] childhood. So, when you're a child, when [12:30] you're three or four years old, [12:33] you're like this complete person. I [12:35] compare it to like this round ball. [12:37] You have good qualities. You have loving [12:40] qualities. You love your parents [12:42] perhaps. You love your siblings perhaps. [12:45] But you also have these other dark [12:47] qualities, these kind of aggressive [12:49] impulses. You Sometimes you hit people. [12:52] Sometimes you say nasty things, right? [12:55] But you're a complete person. It's [12:56] natural. It's who you are. It's how you [12:57] were born. It's like a round ball and [13:00] it's complete. [13:01] And then slowly, year by year, month by [13:05] month, you have to cut off that dark [13:07] side, that back side of yours. [13:09] In school, you're told don't ever show [13:12] that part of you. Your parents are Come [13:14] on, you got to be nice. You got to get [13:15] along. We want want to be proud of you. [13:18] All of those aggressive impulses that [13:20] you have, all of those feelings where [13:23] you where you felt envy about somebody, [13:25] whatever, you wished you had what your [13:27] your brother or sister had. So, they all [13:30] go underground. Right? You force them [13:33] down. [13:34] You don't want to deal with them, but [13:35] they're still there because you're a [13:37] human being. Those emotions don't leave [13:40] you. They just get pushed down and they [13:42] go into the backside of your head. That [13:44] round ball now becomes cut off. It's [13:46] like the moon with a dark side and a [13:47] front side. And when you're out in the [13:49] public and you're in work or in social [13:51] situation, you're only showing people [13:53] that bright, happy side, the good side. [13:56] And you're doing the damndest conceal [13:58] all of that dark energy inside of you. [14:01] And then suddenly, [14:03] because you're not aware of it, it comes [14:05] out in explosions. [14:07] Very typical thing is [14:09] you suddenly get angry and you burst out [14:12] with an angry email or you yell at [14:14] somebody, you say something kind of [14:15] nasty. [14:17] And then you look back and you go, [14:18] "Where did that come from? [14:20] That I didn't That's not really me. I [14:22] don't really like that. I I feel ashamed [14:24] about that." But what you must realize [14:26] is that's part of your shadow that's [14:27] speaking. It's coming out. You're just [14:29] not aware of it. You're trying to [14:30] control it too much. [14:32] And I say, [14:35] "The best thing in life to do is not to [14:37] take out this dark side and just throw [14:38] it around the world and and and be nasty [14:41] and aggressive. That won't work. [14:43] But you have to find ways to take that [14:45] energy because that dark side contains a [14:48] lot of energy, a lot of power. And use [14:51] it and channel it into ways that are [14:53] productive." [14:54] So, [14:56] I happen to be someone who has [14:58] a fair amount of aggression, I have to [14:59] admit. [15:00] I'm extremely competitive, right? [15:04] Even in card games, I don't like losing. [15:07] So, I've channeled it into my books. I [15:09] take all of that energy and I put it [15:11] into making the best books that I can [15:13] into ambition. [15:15] So, if you're ambitious, channeling that [15:18] energy into becoming the best and [15:20] beating the competition is is is a [15:23] productive way of using that dark [15:25] energy. [15:27] If you feel angry about a cause or [15:29] something that pisses you off about the [15:31] world, some injustices, instead of [15:33] whining about it, etc., you go out and [15:36] you do something. You do something [15:38] You get involved in a movement or [15:39] whatever. You channel that energy into [15:41] something productive. [15:43] That's the way to deal with the dark [15:45] side, and that's You can't go throughout [15:47] life imagining that you're the same [15:50] because you're not. You have these [15:51] qualities. [15:53] In your book about the strategies of [15:55] war, [15:56] the [15:57] second strategy of war that you write [15:59] about is do not fight the last war. [16:02] And when I read that, what I understood [16:05] it to kind of mean was about [16:07] not being rigid. [16:10] You know, how does one dismantle their [16:13] the prison of convention that they live [16:15] in? [16:16] So, for that lawyer or for that person [16:17] that's working in the financial district [16:19] who is, you know, 47 and they're a [16:21] lawyer and a stockbroker and they're [16:23] miserable. [16:24] Um [16:26] they have somewhat been imprisoned by [16:28] their own identity, which is like a set [16:31] of ideas from the past. And I'm really [16:33] obsessed with how we get out of the way [16:35] of our own identity so that we can live [16:36] our most fulfilling lives. [16:38] Cuz even me, you know, there's and [16:40] probably even you, I've created this [16:42] perception of who I am and I'm like [16:44] following the instructions every day. [16:47] Yeah, it's a trap. You know, you can't [16:48] fall into that. So, one of the laws of [16:51] power that I have, one of the things [16:52] very important, I think it's [16:54] law 25 or 26, I don't remember the [16:56] number, is recreate yourself. [16:59] So, the moment people start, um uh [17:03] know who you are, they they they they [17:05] identify, they create your identity, [17:07] "Oh, Robert Greene is this person who [17:09] writes these dark, Machiavellian, [17:11] manipulative books." Then I'm trapped. [17:13] I'm trapped by their perception of me, [17:15] and I always have to be like a little [17:16] dog performing for them, right? And I [17:19] don't want to fall into that trap. [17:21] You have to recreate yourself. You have [17:23] to use your personality and who you are [17:26] as clay that you are molding. You're [17:28] like an artist. And so, you you change [17:30] yourself. [17:32] For each person, that's different. So, [17:33] for me, [17:35] it means I don't write 48 Laws of Power [17:38] part two. [17:39] I write now a book that's [17:41] not like the 48 Laws of Power at all. [17:44] For you, it's [17:46] doing your podcast but changing it up, [17:48] or maybe you do a different podcast, or [17:49] maybe you do go into a different career [17:51] set, or maybe you become [17:53] a CEO or an entrepreneur in a different [17:56] direction. [17:57] I was recently on Andrew Huberman's [18:00] podcast, right? One of the most [18:02] successful podcasts beside yours in the [18:04] world. And um [18:07] he I don't want to I [18:09] It's going to sound like bragging, but [18:11] the book Mastery helped him a lot [18:13] because he was a professor I believe at [18:15] Stanford. I hope I I have it right. [18:17] Everything was going well. He was on a [18:18] fast track in in neuroscience, but he [18:21] was miserable. [18:22] He hated the politicking. He hated all [18:25] the [ __ ] that you have to go through [18:26] in academia. [18:28] And then he read the book, and he goes, [18:30] I don't know how old he was. He must [18:31] have been in his early 30s. He goes, [18:34] "I don't want to do this. I want to [18:36] change. I want to recreate myself." He [18:38] decided to go into podcasting and to [18:40] take all of his knowledge about science [18:42] and neuroscience and bring it into a [18:44] different medium. And so, that's that's [18:46] extremely powerful because if he stayed [18:48] in academia, [18:50] he would have gone down the path that [18:52] we're talking about. It sounds a little [18:54] sexier than being [18:56] in finance in your 47, but being stuck [18:59] in academia when it doesn't fit you with [19:01] all the nasty politics that go on in [19:04] universities, etc. That is a path for [19:07] misery if it doesn't fit. So, you have [19:10] to kind of go through this process all [19:11] the time, and not let other people tell [19:14] you who you are. [19:16] In the case of Andrew Huberman, who [19:18] transitioned from an academic to a [19:20] podcaster, [19:22] it's quite a feat because there's lots [19:23] of forces that try and hold our existing [19:26] identity in place. [19:29] A lot of people. [19:31] And to sort of cross the chasm, get past [19:33] all of that force that says, "No, we [19:35] want you to stay with us, Andrew. We [19:37] want you to be an academic. Who do you [19:38] think you are being a podcaster?" [19:41] You know, that that that force I'm so [19:43] intrigued by because everyone, [19:44] regardless of [19:45] where they are now, if they're going to [19:47] try and venture to somewhere else, a [19:48] better place, they're going to encounter [19:50] that. [19:51] Um how does one work through that? What [19:53] is that? How do we understand that force [19:55] that's trying to keep us down? It [19:57] usually happens when you're successful [20:00] that people start giving you these [20:01] identities that kind of define who you [20:03] are. [20:04] And [20:06] if you're okay with it, that's fine, you [20:08] know, if it doesn't But I'm a big [20:10] believer in listening to your own pain [20:12] and listening to your own frustration. [20:15] So, when you feel frustrated in life, [20:17] you have to go through a process. You [20:18] have to look at it, and you have to go, [20:20] "What is the source of it?" Normally, [20:23] the first thing you'll do is you'll [20:24] blame other people, you'll blame the [20:26] world, you'll blame your your spouse, [20:29] your children, whatever, right? And you [20:32] won't really look at what it is, why [20:34] you're frustrated. [20:35] And if you look at it deeply enough, and [20:37] you go, [20:38] "I'm really frustrated because I'm not [20:41] enjoying my work. [20:43] I'm making money. I'm going there every [20:45] day, and I'm going through the motions. [20:47] And I'm successful, and people admire [20:50] me, but I'm not happy. I'm frustrated. [20:52] I'm upset." You've got to lean into that [20:55] pain. You've got to lead lean into what [20:57] frustrates you, and go, [20:59] "I can't go on another 5 years like this [21:02] because [21:04] the mind and the body are tied in [21:06] There's no difference. They they're all [21:08] we're all one, we're all a unity. [21:10] And so, when you start having these [21:12] frustrations, these desires that are not [21:14] you're not acting upon, it creates [21:16] physical problems. You're not aware of [21:19] why suddenly your blood pressure is [21:21] rising, why suddenly your back is having [21:23] pain like I'm having right now. [21:25] It's all interconnected. And when you're [21:28] not doing something that you that you're [21:29] not engaged with, your whole being goes [21:32] out of whack. Everything doesn't work. [21:34] You've got to listen to it, you've got [21:35] to understand it. [21:37] And you've got to go, [21:39] "I want some joy and some excitement in [21:41] my life. I want a challenge." [21:44] It takes some fearlessness because [21:46] leaving [21:48] a prestigious job at Stanford, we've got [21:50] money, you have I don't know if he had [21:51] tenure or not or perhaps he did. You [21:54] know, it takes some guts because you're [21:56] leaving something that that that's that [21:58] you know that's that's a convention, [22:00] that's stable, etc. etc. [22:03] But you've got to go, "It's not worth [22:05] the price. It's not who I am. I'm going [22:07] to suffer for it down the road." [22:09] And so, [22:11] you know, let's say he decided to go [22:13] into podcasting [22:15] and it failed. [22:16] All right, so be it. Then he learns that [22:18] and he he's somebody who's very smart. [22:20] He would have figured out another way to [22:21] another direction to go in. [22:24] If my book The 48 Laws of Power hadn't [22:26] been a success, [22:28] I don't know what would have happened to [22:29] me, but hopefully I would have figured [22:30] out another way to go, you know, cuz I [22:32] also had to drop a career direction that [22:35] I was going in. [22:36] But you've got to try. [22:38] You've got to be able to try and you've [22:39] got to go to say yourself, [22:42] "It's actually a great thing [22:45] in your 30s, let's say, to go, [22:48] 'I need something new. I need something [22:50] completely different. I need a new [22:51] challenge. I'm going to drop this. I'm [22:54] going to start something.' You won't [22:55] believe the energy that will suddenly [22:57] rise up in you, right? You'll suddenly [23:00] feel invigorated. You'll suddenly feel [23:01] youthful again. [23:03] I'm not stuck in this thing. I can try [23:05] something else. [23:07] I'm so intrigued by two things within [23:08] that. One of them was going back to the [23:11] case of Andrew who left Stanford and [23:12] became a podcaster was my brain you said [23:16] um he's an intelligent guy who would [23:18] have figured it out if he'd failed. My [23:19] brain also was saying [23:21] he could have always gone back. [23:24] And there's a real illusion sometimes I [23:25] think in most of our lives where we [23:26] don't realize that if we mess up in this [23:28] thing, as I think Jeff Bezos calls it, [23:31] this is probably [23:32] a type two decision where we can walk [23:35] back through the door. But it's this [23:36] sort of illusion that we're going to [23:38] really lose something great if we fail [23:40] that stops us taking that first step. [23:42] And the other thing I was curious about [23:43] is this idea that pain is is a catalyst [23:45] for change. And do people need to get to [23:47] that point in their lives where they go [23:48] "God, I'm just so sick of this." to [23:50] change? Can someone change before they [23:52] get there? [23:55] Unfortunately not. Sometimes the bottom [23:58] has to drop out before you realize what [24:00] you really want and what you really you [24:02] know need to get in life. Uh I wish it [24:05] weren't that way. [24:06] But um feeling like you're suffering and [24:09] that you need a change and that if you [24:11] go on this way bad things are going to [24:14] happen is the greatest motivator of all [24:16] because if you're [24:18] moderately discontented with your job, [24:21] you're going to constantly be justifying [24:23] it to yourself going [24:24] uh it's all right. It'll get better. [24:27] I'll get there'll be a new boss or I can [24:29] always move from this job to another [24:31] company similar. You'll justify and [24:34] you'll never get out of it and the trap [24:36] will just close in on you and you'll [24:37] never get out of it, right? It's those [24:40] moments where she [24:41] damn it, I hate this. I can't go on. [24:44] You know, I'm I'm heading to suicide. [24:45] I'm heading to depressed. I'm heading to [24:47] drinking. I'm hitting bottom. [24:49] I don't like where I'm going. It doesn't [24:51] have to be quite so drastic. I know I'm [24:54] exaggerating. But you have to feel a [24:56] degree of pain and frustration to say, [24:59] "I need to make a major change in my [25:02] life, you know?" [25:03] The other thing I say is [25:06] in the same book you were quoting on the [25:07] in in about warfare, I have what's [25:10] called the death ground strategy. [25:12] Where [25:14] you feel like [25:16] So, he's going into podcasting. And if [25:18] you go in with the attitude, [25:20] "Well, if I fail, I'll just go scurrying [25:22] back to Stanford." That's a recipe for [25:25] failure in itself already. Your attitude [25:27] is already half-assed. You're already [25:29] half into it. You go to yourself, "I got [25:32] to I'm cutting my ties at Stanford. If [25:34] this podcast doesn't work, I'm not going [25:37] back." It gives you the energy, the [25:39] motivation, the desire to actually make [25:41] it successful. [25:42] But if you're always going through life [25:45] kind of with half measures, going, [25:47] "Well, if I start this business and it [25:49] fails, I'll go back to living with my [25:51] parents and and I'll and I'll do this [25:53] other job." You're not going to put your [25:55] full energy into it. You're not going to [25:56] give all of yourself into it, and it's [25:58] probably going to fail. [26:00] It's really um [26:02] it's so true. [26:04] Um it reminded me of something I was [26:06] reading in one of the psychology [26:07] journals about a study they did with [26:09] participants where they [26:11] asked them to do a puzzle and offered [26:13] them a delicious snack as a reward. [26:16] And then in one group, they said, um [26:19] "This is the only way to get the snack [26:20] if you do this puzzle." And then in the [26:21] other group, they said, "By the way, the [26:23] same snack is also available in the [26:25] vending machine down the hall." And then [26:27] the people in the second group, where [26:28] they had a plan B, were less committed [26:30] to doing the puzzle, spent less time [26:32] trying to solve it, and did worse in the [26:33] puzzle. And it's this idea that a plan B [26:35] actually psychologically does distract [26:38] you from your plan A. Yeah. [26:41] We're we're animals, right? We have we [26:43] have a certain nature, which is what I [26:44] talk about in in human nature. [26:47] And [26:49] our [26:49] our earliest ancestors, to go back to [26:51] something I was talking about, [26:53] our brilliance or the power of our [26:56] species is [26:57] we are actually very physically weak [27:00] compared to like chimpanzees and [27:02] cheetahs and lions, etc., etc. But we [27:05] use our brain and feeling the necessity, [27:08] feeling that we're going to die unless [27:10] we don't solve these problems, [27:13] right? [27:14] If we don't use our brains, if we don't [27:15] create tools, if we don't work together [27:17] as a team, we're going to we're going to [27:19] we're going to die or we won't survive. [27:21] Is what makes us inventive, it's what [27:23] makes us creative. [27:25] It's almost like a barometric pressure. [27:27] I like that's the metaphor I like to [27:29] use. [27:30] What's that? When you feel that pressure [27:32] inside of you and it's very heavy, like [27:35] in like weather that's very, you know, [27:37] heavy and thick, you're motivated. You [27:39] feel it. I've got to get up in the [27:40] morning, I've got to do this, I've got [27:42] to accomplish this. [27:43] When that pressure goes away and and you [27:46] don't feel any pressure in your life, [27:48] you can do anything and there's no [27:49] consequences for it. You'll just waste [27:52] time, you'll waste years, you'll waste [27:54] months, you'll never accomplish [27:55] anything. [27:57] You give somebody a deadline, [27:59] right? [28:00] They'll accomplish in 2 months what [28:03] would take somebody 2 years to do [28:05] without a deadline. It's that necessity, [28:07] it's that sense of there's a there's a [28:10] sword at my back, I've got to get it [28:11] done. It makes you get things done, it [28:14] gives you the energy. It's get rich or [28:16] die trying to quote somebody. [28:18] You you talk about that in the [28:19] strategies um the book about the [28:21] strategies of war, the chapter four or [28:23] strategy number four is about creating a [28:25] sense of urgency and desperation. [28:29] And [28:31] when I was reading that, I was thinking, [28:32] to be fair, I don't know any great [28:33] leader that isn't a little bit urgent [28:35] and a little bit desperate. [28:37] And even if they feign that desperation [28:39] to galvanize people, there's something [28:41] about creating urgency and desperation [28:42] in your life that is an incredible [28:45] tailwind. [28:46] Is there any practical ways that you [28:48] think the average person can create a a [28:52] the required sense of urgency in their [28:53] life so they can get things done? [28:56] Well, it's kind of like a level here. [28:58] So, you need challenges in your life. [29:01] That's what That's sort of what the [29:02] death ground is about. You're [29:04] challenged, you better rise up to it. If [29:06] the challenge is too great, if you're if [29:08] it like [29:09] I'm I'm 24 and I've never written a [29:13] book, but I'm going to write the best [29:14] book ever. You're You're going to fail [29:16] cuz it's too far above you. You're never [29:18] going to reach it. [29:20] If it's too low, you're never going to [29:22] have the energy. It's too easy. It's not [29:24] going to motivate you. But, there's a [29:25] sweet spot. I don't know. I'm just, you [29:28] know, just drawing it here. Be like, [29:30] here. Where it's a challenge. It's above [29:33] what you're can do can do right now. [29:35] It's not so far above that you can't [29:37] possibly do it. [29:38] But, it's of enough of a challenge to [29:40] mean, "God, I better get my act [29:42] together. I better get the energy to get [29:44] to get there. I better, you know, change [29:46] what my habits are. I've got to get up [29:48] earlier. I've got to work harder. It's [29:50] not like I have to get up at 4:00 and [29:52] force myself and work out, etc. I can [29:54] get up at 6:00, 6:30, an hour earlier, [29:57] and I'm going to meet this challenge [29:59] that's a little bit above my level. [30:01] That's a powerful way of motivating [30:03] yourself. You need challenges. You need [30:05] constant challenges in life or you're [30:07] going to or you're going to stagnate. [30:09] It's just the law of nature. [30:11] You talk about false purpose as well. [30:14] Yeah. What is false purpose? [30:16] And how do we know the difference? [30:18] Your purpose in life [30:20] is something that you're born with. It's [30:21] like your destiny. This is what you were [30:23] meant to accomplish. This was what you [30:25] were meant to be what which you were [30:27] meant to do. And we were going through [30:29] We were talking about that [30:31] in terms of your childhood, etc. [30:34] Right? [30:34] But, we humans are not born with that [30:37] purpose engraved in our heads. We don't [30:39] wake up when we're seven go, "That's my [30:41] purpose." If it were that easy, it would [30:43] be that simple, right? [30:46] But, because we don't have any [30:47] direction, you know, animals don't wake [30:50] up in the morning, if they're not [30:52] nocturnal, go, [30:54] "What am I going to do today? [30:56] I can go here, I can hunt for this [30:57] animal, I'm going to hunt for that [30:58] animal. I can eat this No, they don't. [31:00] They operate by instinct. They don't [31:02] They have a purpose. It's It's [31:04] automatic, almost. [31:06] Okay, we don't have that. We have to [31:09] find our purpose. [31:11] And because it's so deep and it's so [31:13] important, that if we don't find it [31:16] through this authentic process I'm [31:18] talking about, we'll find it somewhere [31:20] else, because we need a purpose in life. [31:23] We need something to live for. What will [31:25] that be? [31:26] It will be drugs. It will be some kind [31:29] of cult that I have to join. It will be [31:31] some kind of political movement, where I [31:33] can get out all of my anger and vent all [31:35] of my frustrations. You know, it'll be [31:38] on and on and on. It's something that [31:39] has [31:40] to do with who you are personally, [31:43] but it's something that you can believe [31:45] in, and can give you a sense of purpose, [31:48] but it's not really who you are. It's [31:50] like a drug. It's drugging you into [31:52] believing that you have a purpose, [31:55] but it's not the real purpose that you [31:56] were born for. That's what I mean by [31:58] false purpose. [32:00] And when we find our purpose, [32:02] if we are [32:03] able to and lucky enough to discover it, [32:08] what's the variance in what someone's [32:09] capable of that's found their purpose [32:11] versus someone that hasn't, do you [32:12] think? Like, what's the difference in [32:14] how they show up, how they deliver, the [32:16] results they create, the impact they [32:17] have? [32:19] When you find your purpose, [32:22] it's like everything falls into place, [32:25] right? You don't need to You don't need [32:26] to almost do anything. You'll find [32:28] whatever you need to find. Things good [32:30] things will come to you. [32:32] I know that sounds woo-woo, I know that [32:33] sounds mystical, but I definitely [32:36] believe it, [32:37] right? And so, it's not like you have to [32:39] try so hard. Yes, you have to learn [32:42] skills. Yes, you have to apply yourself. [32:44] Yes, you have to work hard, etc., etc., [32:46] etc. But things just go so much more [32:49] smoothly when you have it. So, for [32:52] instance, one thing that happens when [32:54] you have a sense of purpose [32:55] and I hate to it's something that I feel [32:58] so I I know my narcissism is coming out [33:01] again. Um [33:03] I know what I don't want. [33:05] That's You don't know the power of that. [33:07] You can't imagine how powerful that is. [33:10] So, people come to me all the time with [33:12] Robert, we can make a lot of money doing [33:14] this. We could try this. We could Let's [33:16] make a TV show out of the 48 Laws of [33:18] Power. Let's do this. Let's do that. [33:20] Let's make a game. [33:21] I'm not interested. It's not my purpose. [33:24] No, I don't want it. If I didn't have [33:26] that radar, I'd be spreading myself out [33:29] into eight different venues and I'd be, [33:32] you know, all of my energy would be [33:34] would be scattered. I wouldn't have that [33:36] focus and I'd probably end up being [33:38] pretty miserable because I would have [33:39] lost my purpose. But when you have a [33:41] sense of purpose, it's like No, I don't [33:43] want to do that. I don't want to do [33:44] that. I don't want to I want to do this. [33:47] Yeah, it can be rigid. You have to be a [33:49] little bit flexible. So, if somebody [33:50] comes to me and goes Robert, what about [33:53] this? I'm open to it. That sounds [33:55] moderately interesting. All right, maybe [33:57] I'll try it, you know? And I And I do [34:00] open things things like that. I'm going [34:02] to be doing In a month, I'm going to be [34:04] recording [34:05] a a French version of, you know, the [34:07] Masterclass. [34:09] There's a French version of that. So, [34:11] you know, I'm not so rigid where I can [34:13] only write books. I can try other things [34:15] because I can see value in it and it [34:17] interests me. It's a challenge. Being [34:19] able to say no [34:21] is so important and and is so [34:23] empowering. And that's what a sense of [34:26] purpose will give you to among other [34:27] things. There's a quote that says [34:30] something like [34:32] distractions come dressed up as [34:33] opportunities. [34:35] And to even know what a distraction is, [34:37] you first must understand what your goal [34:39] and what your purpose is, or else it's [34:41] impossible to distinguish between a [34:43] distraction, Robert, go let's go start a [34:44] game. [34:45] Or or an opportunity which is sounds [34:47] much more like that mastermind thing. [34:49] And I think about this all the time. [34:51] You know, the the more clear I am on the [34:53] goal and what my purpose is, the much [34:55] easier it is to understand what a [34:56] distraction is versus an opportunity, [34:58] cuz they do look the same when they come [34:59] in to my inbox. Yes. Well, the other [35:02] thing I do is I kind of game it out. [35:05] So, somebody comes to me and they go [35:08] let's do a television show the 48 Laws [35:10] of Power. And believe me, I've been [35:11] through that about 85 times people [35:14] coming to me that and we have even [35:16] attempted it. [35:17] But I go [35:19] I've worked in Hollywood, I've worked in [35:21] television before before I have my [35:22] books. [35:24] I know the process. I know how miserable [35:26] it can be. [35:28] I know how you have no power. [35:30] I'm a writer now where I write books [35:33] and I have all the power, I have all the [35:34] control. [35:36] You go into Hollywood, you go into [35:37] television or film [35:39] 85 you know, 800 other people join in [35:41] and they all have their ideas and they [35:42] change this that and the other. You have [35:44] no power. [35:45] And and it's meetings and meetings and [35:47] meetings and talk talk talk talk talk. I [35:50] game it out and I go [35:51] I don't want to get into that trap. [35:54] I don't want to be spending a year [35:55] having meeting after meeting after [35:57] meeting hearing about this possibly [35:59] having it changed by this producer. [36:01] I game it out and I go, no, I don't want [36:03] to do it. Can you do that when you're [36:05] younger? Can a 21-year-old [36:08] No. Takes a lot of Takes a fair amount [36:10] of experience in life. Because when [36:11] you're 21, everything looks great and [36:13] exciting. Man, yeah, I'll do that. Why [36:16] not? Yeah, it'll be fun. I'll meet some [36:18] I'll meet some hot girls. I'll do this [36:19] that and the other. Great, you know, [36:20] what cetera cetera. [36:22] You know, you you you don't you don't [36:23] have that radar. You you everything [36:25] looks exciting and enticing. It takes [36:29] the pain, I keep going back to that, of [36:31] things that you wasted your time in and [36:33] things that failed, things that you [36:34] didn't like to teach you [36:36] the ability to say no and to save your [36:39] energy for what you really love. Should [36:41] a young person just be saying yes to [36:43] everything? [36:46] You know, the problem that we have is [36:49] everything is has to be this way or that [36:51] way. It has to be black or white and [36:52] it's not like that. It's kind of in [36:53] between. [36:55] You can learn to dance in life. You [36:56] don't have to go this way or that way. [36:58] You can kind of do both. So, the best [37:01] advice I give people is [37:03] your 20s [37:06] are the best years of your life. [37:08] Actually, I think the 30s are, but let's [37:09] just say for for argument's sake, your [37:11] 20s. You're young. You probably look [37:15] pretty good. You're healthy. You know, [37:17] you've got all these things going on for [37:18] you. [37:19] I want you to have some fun and I want [37:21] you to have adventures. I don't want you [37:23] to be 22 and go and get a job at Goldman [37:26] Sachs for the rest of your life. So, [37:28] that you need fun, you need adventure, [37:30] you need some looseness. You know, you [37:32] want some experiences. [37:34] But, it has to have some direction to [37:36] it. It can't just be I'm going to write [37:39] poetry. I'm going to do rock and roll. [37:41] I'm going to go and learn chemistry. I'm [37:44] going to, you know, become, you know, [37:45] this that and the other. No connection [37:47] at all between all of these things. Just [37:49] trying everything for the sake of [37:50] novelty. [37:51] That's a recipe for not being successful [37:53] because what you wanted to happen is [37:56] you're 30 years old now. You've let your [37:58] 20s are behind you. It's usually a time [38:00] of reckoning where you go, "Shit, [38:02] I'm not so young anymore. Okay, you [38:05] know, I'm getting older. [38:07] All right, I've had my fun. I've had [38:09] adventure. I'm ready for something [38:11] serious and I've learned some real [38:13] skills in life. I've For me personally, [38:16] I learned how to write. Um or whatever [38:19] it is. You didn't just go try 80 [38:21] different things. You you you kind of [38:24] had four or five that you did you you [38:26] experimented with. All right, now I know [38:28] what I love. Now I can go down that [38:29] path. [38:31] And in mastery [38:32] I often tell the story to people of one [38:34] of the masters I interviewed was Paul [38:37] Graham who is the man who started Y [38:39] Combinator. You probably heard of Y [38:41] Combinator. [38:42] He was somebody who got into AI [38:46] when he was like 18 19 years old. He was [38:48] like at MIT, I believe. Right? Back in [38:50] the late 70s when nobody was even [38:52] thinking about it. [38:54] Okay? He was a hacker. [38:56] Cuz his father was was a scientist who [38:59] had computers back in the 70s and he [39:01] learned how to hack early on. [39:04] Okay? So he went down the process of [39:06] going into academia, of [39:08] of going into programs of compu- com- [39:10] computer programming, etc. etc. [39:13] And he was on a track just like Huberman [39:15] at MIT to become a professor, to become [39:18] proficient in and he hated it. [39:21] It was soul-sucking. He didn't like the [39:22] politics. He didn't like dealing with [39:24] the people. He didn't like academia. So [39:26] he quit [39:28] and he became a painter. [39:30] Because that's he loved design and he [39:31] loved visuals. He comes back to New [39:34] York. [39:35] He's living in a loft. He's painting. [39:38] He's He's happy and he's not making any [39:40] money. [39:41] And then he hears an advertisement on [39:42] the radio [39:44] for I I think it was maybe Netscape or [39:46] one of the earliest um you know [39:49] uh internet whatever you call them. And [39:52] they're saying the future in in in for [39:55] computers is being able to sell buy and [39:57] sell products on the internet. [40:00] He ends up creating the first I think [40:01] one of the prototype for all the things [40:03] that we have now. [40:05] Yahoo ended up buying it for like $5 [40:07] million. [40:09] And then the let rest is history. [40:11] He spent his 20s trying something out, [40:14] learning real skills. He went somewhere [40:16] else, learning something that he loved, [40:19] and then he's 30 and he combines the two [40:20] together. [40:22] And he's he's a classic example because [40:24] he he gets very bored easily. [40:27] So, he Y Combinator is worth billions of [40:30] dollars, extremely successful, he sells [40:32] it and gets into something else cuz he [40:33] likes writing, etc. He's always He's [40:36] kind of a prototype for a lot of what [40:37] we're talking about. [40:39] We've spoken a lot about self-awareness [40:41] and self and all those kinds of things. [40:43] What about other people? [40:45] You know, [40:47] the only thing that seems to stand in [40:48] the way of all of our goals in life are [40:49] other people. [40:51] So, if I if I want to become [40:53] exceptional at understanding the human [40:55] nature of other people and using it in [40:56] my favor, [40:58] where do I start there? What are the the [41:00] sort of foundations of being great at [41:04] using other people's human nature to my [41:06] advantage? That sounds very narcissistic [41:08] and very [41:09] awful, but it's [41:11] It's It is what it is. Part of it is [41:13] what it is, exactly. [41:15] People, as I said, the main mistake we [41:18] make in dealing with other people, and [41:20] it's and it's a common mistake that I [41:22] make as well, is we take the appearances [41:24] for reality. [41:26] We take their masks for how they appear [41:28] to us, for their politeness, for their [41:31] smiles, for their saying, "Oh, I loved [41:33] you," etc., for the reality. [41:36] And we have to learn [41:38] that to look behind people's masks. We [41:41] have to learn what's really really going [41:43] on behind them. [41:44] And we have to learn some basics about [41:47] human nature. [41:48] People like to believe that they're [41:50] essentially good, [41:52] you know, saintly, virtuous, however you [41:54] want to do it. People want to believe [41:55] that they're intelligent, they're You [41:57] never want to feel like, "I'm not [41:59] stupid. I'm intelligent." And the other [42:01] third thing is that they're that they're [42:02] willpower, that they're in control of [42:04] their lives, they do things because they [42:06] decided to do it. [42:08] To tell to make people feel insecure [42:11] about their intelligence, right? To make [42:13] them feel like they're not moral or [42:15] they're not good. To make them feel like [42:16] they do things not because they choose [42:18] to it because they were forced to or [42:20] because they they're not aware of [42:21] themselves. [42:22] They hate that. They're going to hate [42:24] you. They're going to resent you. [42:25] They're going to resist you. [42:28] Knowing some basics about people like [42:31] that gives you the power to use that for [42:33] influence, for persuasion, okay? [42:37] Understanding envy in the human world [42:41] and on social media envy is just an is [42:44] like a nuclear bomb. It's just exploded [42:46] our tendency to feel envy, to compare [42:48] ourselves to other people. [42:50] You've got to use that for power. [42:52] There's great power in that in a [42:54] marketing publicity sense, virality, [42:57] what getting other people to be [42:59] interested in what other people are [43:00] doing. That's how things sell [43:02] themselves. If you try and tell people [43:04] what they should buy as opposed to look [43:07] at what other people are doing. I want [43:08] to join in on that, right? Knowing about [43:11] these basic qualities in human nature, [43:13] about how we like to compare ourselves, [43:15] how we have these certain opinions about [43:17] ourselves, etc., etc. [43:19] Gives you all of this power [43:21] to take that human nature and use it for [43:25] whatever purposes you want for good or [43:27] unfortunately some people use it for [43:29] bad. [43:30] Do we have to lie to be successful? [43:32] And I say this because [43:34] through reading some of your work, I I [43:36] heard sentences such as you should keep [43:38] your true intentions hidden in social [43:40] situations. Um you say a lot about like [43:43] kind of cloaking yourself in various [43:44] ways. You talk about showing up as an [43:46] actor. [43:47] That sometimes we do need to show up as [43:48] an actor in our lives. So, in order to [43:51] be truly successful, I know it's a [43:52] little bit of a difficult question, [43:54] but do we have to lie? [43:56] Look, Steven, being a human being means [43:59] we lie. [44:01] Right? The moment you open your mouth [44:02] and you speak, [44:04] you are essentially not telling the [44:06] truth. [44:07] You know what doesn't lie? [44:09] Body language. Nonverbal communication. [44:13] The way you smile, the look in your [44:15] eyes, you can't lie about that. [44:18] But children, 3 or 4 years old, [44:21] are already learning to craft what they [44:23] say to Mommy or Daddy to get what they [44:26] want. They're very clever, they're very [44:28] strategic, right? [44:29] They know that if they if they say that [44:32] they what they exactly want, they won't [44:33] get it. They learn to kind of whine and [44:36] complain and put a certain tone in their [44:38] voice and to be an actor. [44:42] A social animal like we are, we are [44:45] actors in life. [44:46] Get over this idea about guilting about [44:49] about it. I'm so sick of that. We are [44:51] actors. We are descended from [44:53] chimpanzees. Chimpanzees are consummate [44:57] actors. Read the literature on that. [44:59] They know how to deceive incredibly well [45:02] and they don't even have language to [45:03] deceive, right? [45:05] So, we are actors. The moment you go out [45:08] in the public, you're not telling [45:10] people, "Oh, you're fat, you're ugly, [45:13] your writing sucks, you da da da da da [45:15] da da, I don't like what you're [45:16] wearing." You never do that. You're an [45:19] actor. [45:20] When you see your father, you act a [45:22] certain way. When you see a little kid, [45:25] you act a certain way. When you see a [45:26] little kitty cat, you have a certain [45:28] tone in your voice. When you deal with [45:30] your boss, the person who pays for the [45:33] for your podcast, I don't know if there [45:34] is such a person, you wear your act a [45:36] different way. You're constantly [45:38] changing how who you are and how you [45:40] act. One moment you're Robert De Niro, [45:43] the next moment you're I don't know what [45:45] other actor you are, but you you're [45:46] changing your roles depending on who [45:48] you're dealing with. [45:50] I'm so tired of people not recognizing [45:52] this fact that we are all actors, that [45:55] we are constantly deceiving. Yes, there [45:58] are differences, there are qualities of [46:00] lying. [46:01] You know, I understand that. There's [46:03] Donald Trump lying and there's the lying [46:06] of the everyday white lies in which we [46:08] have to say certain things to get ahead. [46:10] So, there [46:11] are degrees. I understand that. And some [46:15] lying can be very harmful and and very [46:17] counterproductive in the end. [46:20] But, the moment you enter the world and [46:22] the moment you open your mouth, you are [46:24] in some ways already an actor and you [46:27] are already using forms of deception. [46:30] Why can't we be our true selves? [46:33] Because it would irritate uh people. [46:37] Because it would grate. [46:38] You know? [46:41] I don't know about you, but I appreciate [46:42] politeness. [46:44] Right? I go somewhere and I know [46:46] someone's being polite. I know that [46:48] they're not necessarily meaning it, [46:50] but it's nice. [46:51] Right? It's kind of smooth. It kind of [46:53] makes everything sort of smooth. [46:55] If people weren't polite, it'd all be [46:57] grating and like two pieces of metal [46:59] constantly hitting each other. You'd be [47:01] so annoying, you'd want to kill yourself [47:02] or you'd want to kill people. You'd [47:04] become kill a murderer. [47:06] You know? [47:07] Social life depends on that kind of [47:09] smoothness those interactions. [47:11] So, we need that to some degree. If we [47:14] were just always telling people what we [47:16] really thought, [47:18] our our world would collapse tomorrow. [47:21] What about showing our weakness? I've [47:23] got this quote from you that says, [47:25] "If you are weak and ask for little, [47:27] little is what you will get. But, if you [47:30] act strong, [47:31] making firm, even outrageous demands, [47:34] you will create the opposite impression. [47:37] People will think that you are confident [47:41] and that it must be based on something [47:42] real. You will earn their respect, [47:45] which in turn will translate to real [47:48] leverage." [47:50] Well, it's it's about certain [47:52] situations. [47:54] So, I don't want you to apply that idea [47:56] to everything in life. And some people [47:58] make the mistake when they read the 48 [48:00] Laws of Power, they think, "Well, I'm [48:01] going to use that everywhere." No, [48:03] it applies to certain situations. [48:05] So, [48:07] let's say you're negotiating. [48:09] And I know I dealt with this myself. I'm [48:11] actually [48:13] a fairly timid person by nature, but [48:16] I've learned to cultivate the opposite. [48:18] So, if you're negotiating a price for [48:20] what you want for your time, for your [48:22] services, [48:23] and you're not very confident, and you [48:25] kind of ask for a little, that's what [48:27] you're going to get because people [48:29] aren't going to they're assuming that [48:31] you're that you're not really up to the [48:33] task. [48:35] You say, "Uh all right, $20,000 is [48:37] enough." That's what they'll give you. [48:39] But, if you raise your price high, and [48:42] you say it with the right voice, and you [48:43] believe in it, they're going to go, [48:45] "Wow, that person is is confident." And [48:47] if they turn you down, that's fine [48:49] because somebody else will give you that [48:51] price. [48:52] If you you set your own value by what [48:55] you believe about yourself. If you think [48:57] that you're worthless, [48:59] if you're not very good at it, other [49:01] people pick that up. And when you as you [49:03] were talking, I was thinking about um [49:04] Adam Neumann from WeWork, and this [49:06] conversation I heard with him and the [49:08] founder of SoftBank in the back of a [49:09] taxi where Adam Neumann's asking for a [49:12] billion, and then the owner of SoftBank, [49:14] this very eccentric Chinese, very rich [49:17] Asian man goes, "Do you know what, Adam? [49:19] The only problem with you [49:21] is that you're not ambitious enough." [49:22] Ah. And he writes him a check, I [49:24] believe, for like five or 10 billion [49:26] dollars in the back of this taxi after [49:28] like something like 12 minutes of being [49:31] with him. And I always thought about [49:32] that and thought, "Jesus, what if I just [49:34] started asking life for way more? If I [49:38] just multiplied all of these emails that [49:40] I send and requests I make by 10, [49:43] what would happen to my life over the [49:45] course of 10 years?" Well, yeah, and [49:47] probably you probably would have gotten [49:49] a lot more than you got [49:50] without asking for that. Um [49:54] Yeah, because [49:55] we are creatures that as I said before [49:58] we look at the appearances of things. [50:01] Look, it's it's very very easy metaphor [50:03] here. [50:05] You go into a social situation like a [50:06] party [50:08] and you go up to somebody who's kind of [50:10] nervous and insecure and anxious. And [50:13] I'm not criticizing that because we all [50:15] have insecurities. I have many of them [50:17] myself. But you go up to somebody like [50:19] that [50:20] and it makes you feel kind of nervous [50:23] and insecure. [50:25] Right? And you're kind of fumbling for [50:27] words and it kind of goes a bit of [50:28] awkwardness happens. [50:31] Reverse that and you go up to somebody [50:32] else and they're kind of confident. They [50:35] look you in the eye. [50:37] You know, their voice is strong, their [50:38] body language is strong. They connect to [50:41] you. [50:42] Whoa, you think it brings you out that [50:44] part of you was like that. You might be [50:46] intimidated, but it also might bring out [50:48] your own kind of confidence. So [50:50] I remember [50:52] being around 50 Cent [50:55] who's a very charismatic, confident to [50:57] the point of ridiculousness. [51:00] And it was very infectious. I felt that [51:03] way after being around him for a couple [51:05] hours. I was with him for several [51:06] months. It rubbed off on me, right? We [51:09] have these kind of viral contagious [51:11] effects by people. So if you project [51:15] strength and confidence [51:18] you know, and I understand it's a little [51:20] different for women which is [51:22] an interesting subject because sometimes [51:25] projecting that for a woman [51:27] will rub the wrong way because people [51:28] will think that [51:30] and it's terrible quality thing about us [51:33] that that women are judged by a [51:34] different standard where that will seem [51:36] like they're a [ __ ] or something like [51:38] that. So I understand there are nuances [51:40] here and that the game is different for [51:42] women as it is for people of other [51:45] ethnicities as well, you know? So, it's [51:48] not just one way or the other. [51:50] But, to the degree [51:52] that even for the woman that you have [51:55] this air of confidence, that you believe [51:58] in what you're doing, that you believe [51:59] you're worth it, [52:01] it projects itself to other people. You [52:03] don't have to scream and shout, and you [52:05] don't have to demand $10 billion. But, [52:08] if you feel confident, if you feel [52:10] you're worth this amount of money, it'll [52:13] project outward to other people. Body [52:15] language. Yeah. Let's talk about that. [52:18] Does it You know, you said earlier it's [52:20] one of the things we can't lie about. [52:22] Is there anything that you still look [52:23] for in today when you're trying to read [52:25] someone? Their body language. Are there [52:28] certain cues? Is there postures or Well, [52:31] you know, you you got to [52:33] in reading nonverbal communication, it's [52:35] a different form of intelligence. It's [52:38] not algorithms, it's not [52:40] formulaic. It's human, it's emotional, [52:44] it's empathetic. It's a reading without [52:47] words. It's a tuning yourself to other [52:49] people. [52:51] So, I attune myself to people's [52:53] emotions, to the vibe that they give off [52:55] in an overall sense. A gestalt is one [52:58] thing that I like to do. So, if I had to [53:01] give it a word, I would say anxious. Or, [53:04] I would have to say [53:06] outgoing and extroverted. Or, I would [53:08] have to say impatient or whatever. [53:11] There's an energy that kind of defines [53:12] them. It's a word, and that word is not [53:15] precise, but there is an overall feel [53:18] that I get from a person. And then, I'm [53:21] always looking at specifics. [53:24] It's not like I'm sitting there [53:26] consciously in my head going through a [53:29] checklist. I'm just feeling certain [53:32] things. And I'm feeling [53:35] that the eyes are kind of dead. [53:37] They're not engaging with me. [53:40] And you can't put that into words, but [53:43] you know the feeling. So, when someone's [53:45] looking at you, but they're not really [53:47] looking at you, you know what that feels [53:49] like, don't you? Mhm. [53:51] And a lot of [53:53] psychopathic people, a lot of [53:54] narcissists, do that. So, part of their [53:57] face pretends to be interested in you. [54:00] They are looking at you in the eye, but [54:02] they're not really looking at you. [54:03] They're thinking of something else. [54:04] They're seeing in you what they can get [54:06] out of you. They're seeing you as an [54:07] object, right? [54:10] Eyes are hard to lie. They tell you [54:13] something. [54:14] Now, actors [54:16] very [54:17] skilled actors can kind of create some [54:20] of these impressions, but one thing that [54:22] they can't fake is the tone in their [54:25] voice. [54:26] And actors will tell you that it's the [54:27] hardest thing to actually consciously [54:29] control. [54:31] So, the voice of a person tells you a [54:33] lot about their confidence levels, tells [54:36] you a lot about [54:38] you know, how [54:40] just about their general emotional tone, [54:42] about their character, about who they [54:43] are. [54:44] It's very difficult to fake. [54:47] And when it's hesitant, when it's [54:50] like stammering, when it's not, you [54:52] know, you can kind of sense something [54:54] from people's voice, and it's very hard [54:56] to fake. And then the smile, the smile [55:00] tells you a hundred different things if [55:02] you know how to read it. [55:04] There's the [55:05] authentic smile, [55:07] which I'm not going to fake right now, [55:09] but I just [55:11] it lights up the whole face, you know? [55:13] Like you really feel joy. [55:15] You can't you don't you can't fake it. [55:16] Your eyes go up, your cheeks go up, [55:19] everything kind of connects together, [55:21] right? The fake smile [55:25] you know. Yeah. [55:26] We've all seen the fake smile. [55:28] Just when the mouth goes up and the rest [55:29] of the face doesn't bother. Steven, I [55:31] really like you. You're really [55:33] wonderful. [55:34] You know? [55:37] Most of the time most smiles are fake, [55:39] but you can kind of when you see the [55:41] genuine smile and you go, that's what [55:43] caused the genuine smile, you should [55:45] become aware of that. And then body [55:48] language tells you a lot like [55:51] is somebody when they're talking to you [55:53] and you're standing up at a at a party [55:55] is their body kind of facing another [55:57] direction while they're talking to you? [55:59] Are they kind of looking out there way [56:01] while they're talking to you? That means [56:02] they're not really interested in you. [56:04] They're not really engaged in you, [56:06] right? [56:07] Also [56:08] when you catch people by surprise and [56:11] they don't have the time to put on a [56:12] fake smile. I often tell people to do [56:14] this. [56:15] Like [56:16] there's somebody in your office [56:19] and you don't know whether they're a [56:20] snake or whether they're actually [56:22] genuinely your friend but you suspect go [56:25] either way. [56:26] You kind of approach them from an angle, [56:29] right? [56:31] And you surprise them and you come up to [56:32] them and you go, they look at you and [56:34] for a second you detect what we call a [56:36] micro expression of [56:39] of disdain and then they put on the [56:40] smile. [56:42] That micro expression [56:44] which scientists psychologists have [56:46] studied last for like [56:48] less than a second, much less than a [56:50] second. You have to be able to read it [56:52] but it reveals whether they actually [56:54] like you or they're totally false. They [56:56] can't fake it. So, if you come to [56:59] straight on they'll oh, hi Stephen. I [57:01] love it. Great to see you. They come to [57:03] you. Oh, they they kind of pretend then [57:06] they try and act and you you can get [57:08] clues like that. [57:09] There's so many ways to read body [57:11] language. It's such a fascinating [57:12] subject. I could go on for hours about [57:14] it. How important is it? You know, [57:17] you're talking about colleagues and team [57:18] members there and earlier you said that [57:20] people are contagious. How important do [57:23] you think it is to the [57:26] success of our lives and I paused there [57:28] because success means it's a personal [57:29] thing, it's a professional thing [57:32] to surround ourselves with [57:34] the right group of people and to be [57:35] intentional about that. It's very [57:37] important. Um [57:40] I have a chapter in Excuse me, in the 48 [57:42] Laws of Power about infection. [57:45] And um I think it's an experience many [57:47] of us have had [57:49] where you're around somebody [57:52] who seems at first glance to be very [57:55] interesting. [57:57] And they they they become your friend, [57:59] maybe. [58:01] They're very dramatic. [58:02] And they have all these stories to tell. [58:05] And they seem almost slightly larger [58:07] than life. [58:08] And you engage with them. [58:11] And then you become friends. [58:13] And then slowly slowly slowly it becomes [58:16] clear [58:17] that that they're a little bit nuts, [58:20] right? They're always talking about how [58:22] this person screwed them, how that [58:23] person screwed them, how this [58:26] boyfriend or girlfriend was so awful and [58:28] so nasty. You going to re- You going to [58:30] realize [58:31] is this true or is it maybe they're that [58:33] the prob- they are the problem. But now [58:35] that you're a friend and now you're [58:37] emotionally attached to them and now [58:39] they have room to play all these kind of [58:41] games on you and all of their drama [58:43] starts infecting you. [58:45] And it's like, god damn it, I want to [58:46] get away from this person, but I can't. [58:48] They've infected you with their negative [58:50] energy and it gets under your skin. [58:53] And so [58:54] uh you have to avoid people like that. [58:56] You have to read before you get involved [58:58] with them that they are a drama queen or [59:01] a drama king cuz there just as many men [59:03] out there who have this quality. [59:05] You have to see that they are [59:08] that they play the victim of all of [59:10] everybody else, but actually they kind [59:12] of bring it on to themself. Some people [59:14] are genuinely unfortunate. Bad things [59:17] have happened to them and it's not their [59:18] fault. [59:20] I'm never saying it's a misconception [59:22] about that chapter [59:23] that you should avoid everybody who's [59:25] unfortunate. There are people and a lot [59:27] of people out there whose circumstances [59:30] have put made them, you know, in this [59:32] this [59:33] what's going on. It's not their fault, [59:35] right? But there are other people you [59:37] have to recognize that the bad things [59:39] that happened to them are things that [59:41] they have brought on because they have [59:43] this infecting power. It comes from deep [59:46] insecurity. You don't want them in your [59:48] life. [59:49] Being around insecure people will make [59:52] you insecure. [59:53] Being around confident people [59:56] who kind of know what they're doing, [59:58] who've got their act together, who are [60:00] trying to make things and accomplish [60:01] things, because there's so many people [60:04] out there who talk and talk and talk but [60:05] never do anything. [60:07] Being around people who do things, who [60:09] get things done, who've made a business, [60:11] who've made this, that, or the other, [60:13] they're gold to be around cuz they'll [60:15] infect you with their positive energy. [60:17] Frenemies. [60:20] Yeah. [60:22] Do we all have frenemies and how do we [60:23] spot frenemies? [60:26] Well, hopefully we all don't have them. [60:28] But in the laws of human nature and in [60:31] several of my books I talk about the [60:33] phenomenon of envy, which is very, very [60:35] powerful human trait. [60:38] It has roots, very ancient roots. We [60:41] know that in hunter-gatherer societies [60:44] from thousands of years ago, envy was a [60:47] real problem. And so they created all [60:49] kinds of rituals to avoid envy. Where [60:52] the moment somebody in a tribe received [60:54] a gift, they had to give it to other [60:56] members so they wouldn't face envy [60:58] because facing envy you could be [60:59] murdered for it. So you learned all [61:01] these rituals and we've noticed that [61:03] chimpanzees feel envy. You give someone [61:07] of the higher-up chimps cuz they're very [61:09] hierarchical a grape and all of a sudden [61:11] all the other chimps are very wanting [61:13] that grape as well and they feel envy [61:15] and etc. etc. So it's an extremely human [61:17] emotion. [61:19] The thing that we don't realize though [61:21] that the people most likely to feel [61:24] envy, first of all, we all feel envy. [61:26] We're all comparing ourselves to other [61:28] people. I feel it all the time. [61:30] Right now, I envy Ryan Holiday because [61:34] he's [61:35] you know, some 30 years younger. He's [61:38] sold so many books. You know, he's got [61:40] all this great stuff. I I know I know [61:42] what envy is like. I feel it. We all [61:44] feel small degrees of envy. [61:47] But there are people I call it passive [61:49] envy. But active envy means people act [61:52] on it. They do something to hurt you. [61:54] They sabotage you in some way. [61:57] Frenemies are the classic scenario. So [62:00] somebody [62:01] who feels envious of you [62:04] end up befriending you. [62:06] And consciously, they may not be even [62:08] aware of that. They think, well, I would [62:11] do want to like them. But unconsciously, [62:13] they feel envy. They think that you have [62:15] success that you don't necessarily that [62:17] they deserve. That you have what they [62:20] want, right? They become your friend. [62:24] And they they charm you, etc., etc. And [62:26] then lo and behold, you start noticing [62:29] all kinds of behavior that's very ugly, [62:32] that you weren't expecting cuz you're [62:33] they're your friend. They start saying [62:36] [ __ ] comments that get under your skin [62:38] that make you feel insecure. [62:41] They take things from you. They act in [62:43] ways that are hurtful. But because [62:45] they're your friend, your first instinct [62:47] is to blame yourself. [62:49] Well, maybe it's my fault that they've [62:51] done this. Maybe I'm actually to blame [62:53] for what for what they're saying, etc., [62:55] etc. [62:56] So I believe [62:58] behind the frenemies phenomenon is this [63:01] this phenomena of envy where the person [63:05] secretly wants what you have and they're [63:07] becoming your friends so that they can [63:09] wound you. [63:10] And what's best to do is to recognize [63:13] that. And one common sign of a frenemy, [63:16] of somebody who's befriending you out of [63:18] envy is they're in a rush to be your [63:21] friend. [63:23] Normally, [63:24] we like to take it a little bit slow. We [63:27] just don't let anybody into our lives. [63:29] We like to vet them a little bit [63:31] beforehand, right? We don't trust [63:32] everybody. [63:34] But the person who feels envy is like, [63:36] "I love you. You're fantastic. I want to [63:37] be your friend. We got to hang out. [63:39] Let's go out for dinner the next night." [63:40] etc. etc. They're in a hurry. That's a [63:43] sign that something else is going on [63:45] because that's not natural. What about [63:48] when friends become frenemies? [63:50] Because sometimes through the process of [63:52] us changing, Yes. [63:54] you might inspire that envy. [63:56] Yes, like your status changes. We've all [63:59] had to deal with that. I've had to deal [64:00] with that as well. You have success [64:03] and you you came from a background where [64:06] you where where you weren't so [64:07] successful and your friends are still [64:09] there [64:10] and they envy you and they're not very [64:12] nice to you. [64:13] And uh [64:15] you know, it's a it's not a good quality [64:17] and I've I've I've I've understand the [64:20] quality. I understand where it comes [64:21] from. [64:22] And I've I've wrote about it in human [64:24] nature. [64:25] Where we're all aware [64:27] of the of the of the what we call [64:29] Schadenfreude. Schadenfreude means you [64:32] take pleasure in other people's pain. [64:35] So, you hear a friend [64:38] didn't get the job that they wanted to [64:40] get [64:41] and you go, "Oh, I'm sorry." But deep [64:43] down inside you're kind of [64:45] kind of happy. You know, and we all go [64:47] through that, right? [64:49] The opposite is Mitfreude. It's an [64:51] expression that Nietzsche coined, which [64:53] means you feel joy for other people. [64:56] I like to try and [64:58] cultivate some of the higher qualities [65:00] in life. So, if something good happens [65:02] to somebody, [65:04] I've My first thing is I might feel a [65:06] twinge of envy, but then I go, "It's [65:08] great for them." I'm actually very [65:10] happy. I'm excited. I share their joy in [65:13] what has happened, right? But it's not [65:15] natural. So when somebody that you know [65:18] and you've known for a long time has [65:19] success in life, [65:21] your first thing is to be [65:23] They didn't deserve it. They kind of [65:25] cheated their way to it. [65:27] Okay, as we talked about in the very [65:29] beginning, you confront that ugly [65:31] emotion yourself and you go, "That's not [65:32] who I want to be." And you go, "I'm [65:34] going to make myself feel the opposite. [65:36] I'm going to make myself feel happy for [65:38] their success." [65:40] It's not natural and most people don't [65:42] go through that and I know personally [65:44] from people I knew before [65:47] I had any success in life. [65:50] They're the ones that give me the fewest [65:52] amount of compliments for my books. [65:55] They never read my books in the first [65:56] place. They're very spare with their [65:59] with what they say. They've got a [66:00] pinched look on their face. [66:02] Whereas people I've never met before in [66:04] my life give me all kinds of [66:05] compliments. [66:06] Why is that? Because they're envious. [66:08] They're upset. Are you [66:10] Are you threatening them? Because they [66:12] see themselves [66:14] like you because they knew you and you [66:15] were you're from where they were from, [66:17] so you're even more threatening. You're [66:19] holding up a mirror to them in a way [66:20] that makes them feel even more [66:21] uncomfortable. [66:21] Well, they're not going to feel that [66:23] way. So what people will go through in [66:25] that sense is [66:27] and this is how I I I I I think it [66:30] through. [66:31] "Oh, Robert sold himself out." [66:34] "He wrote a book that's evil, that's [66:35] nasty, that's manipulative. I didn't [66:37] think he was like that. I thought he was [66:39] this nice person." [66:41] "Oh, I don't like his book, it's ugly." [66:43] They'll go through that process. They'll [66:45] stay my friend because we've had years [66:47] and years [66:48] together. I was very, very common, at [66:51] least I know that. They go through They [66:53] do that with my books, even though my [66:55] later books aren't like The 48 Laws of [66:57] Power. They still have it ingrained that [66:59] this guy who who used to be so sweet and [67:01] nice wrote these nasty, evil, [67:03] manipulative, Machiavellian books. He [67:05] sold out. What is it at the heart of the [67:08] 48 Laws of Power that some people [67:11] are [67:13] triggered by? [67:15] Like what is the What What was the [67:16] single most triggering concept or the [67:19] most um controversial or the concept [67:22] that people just had a surface level [67:24] allergic reaction to on site? [67:27] Without even really reading it, they [67:28] just Oh, they don't know. Yeah, they [67:30] read the back of the book. They read the [67:32] names of the laws and they go, "Oh, [67:34] that's [67:35] That's ugly." [67:37] And a lot of times [67:39] they've had to deal with ugly people in [67:41] their lives. And so that's when I see I [67:44] see the authentic disgust reaction. I [67:46] understand it. That they had to deal [67:48] with someone who's very manipulative. [67:50] And they find it disgusting. [67:52] Of course, when I get to have a rational [67:55] discussion with them and I calm down [67:57] their emotional reaction, I said, [68:00] "Look, if you had The 48 Laws of Power [68:02] before this person manipulated you, they [68:04] would have never been able to manipulate [68:05] you. That book is the best defense you [68:07] could ever have in your life. It's like [68:09] a shield. Once you've read it, you know [68:11] all the tricks people are playing on [68:13] you, right? They know they're posing as [68:15] a friend and acting like a spy, right? [68:17] They're concealing their intentions. You [68:19] know, etc. etc. etc. It's showing you [68:22] all of these tricks." [68:23] Okay, but that's when they calm down and [68:25] I'm able to say that. But [68:28] the idea [68:29] that we're not angels, [68:32] that we don't all have the best [68:35] intentions in life, [68:37] that I'm writing a manual, they think, [68:41] for how to manipulate, how to deceive, [68:43] how to con people, triggers people very [68:46] much. [68:47] A lot of people [68:49] who've who've who've suffered in life, [68:51] who've had a lot of pain, [68:53] understand that there's irony in the [68:55] book. They don't read it the same way. [68:57] They read it knowing, "Yeah, I've had [68:59] this happen. This is what people are [69:00] like. I'm okay with that. I'm cool with [69:02] it. [69:03] And I must say [69:04] I don't know if this will come off [69:06] wrong, but a lot of the readers who [69:08] responded most positively to the 48 Laws [69:10] of Power early on were [69:12] African-Americans, people like 50, [69:14] people in the hip-hop business, etc. [69:16] They didn't have any illusions [69:19] about human nature, about how good we [69:21] are, because they've seen this side all [69:25] throughout their lives, right? 50 said [69:27] when he got into the record business, [69:30] he was shocked at how political people [69:32] were, how manipulative they were. [69:34] So, [69:35] they weren't having that same reaction. [69:38] They weren't having the guilty reaction [69:40] like [69:41] oh, that I don't want to read about [69:42] that. Why do we Why do we even have to [69:44] discuss that? That's not That's not [69:46] positive. That's not helpful. That's I [69:48] think a lot of what triggered people. [69:49] It's funny cuz I was speaking to a CIA [69:52] agent recently, and he said something at [69:54] the end of our conversation to me. He [69:55] said, "You know, one of the things I've [69:56] come to learn from being in the CIA is [69:59] that I no longer believe that [70:01] equality is possible." [70:03] And he he said [70:04] Equality. [70:05] Equality. Yeah. [70:07] Because that's just not the way that the [70:08] human world works, and we all pretend we [70:10] want equality. We all pretend we want [70:12] everyone to be equal. But if you look at [70:14] every game we play, whether we're [70:15] politicians or we're business people or [70:17] whatever, it's all about hierarchies and [70:20] power and getting ahead. Even the the [70:22] sheer nature of being a politician is [70:24] campaigning to get into a position of, [70:27] you know, objective power. [70:29] And I wanted wanted to know what you [70:30] thought about that. Well, I mean, [70:32] there's some truth to it in the sense of [70:34] there's something in our nature that is [70:36] hierarchical, that has deep roots in us. [70:39] But [70:40] I do believe in one form of equality, [70:43] um [70:44] and that is [70:46] everybody at their birth has the [70:48] possibility [70:50] for following the path that I talk about [70:52] in mastery, for being great, for [70:54] fulfilling their destiny, for being the [70:57] unique individual that they are at [70:59] birth. [71:00] So, everybody is born with a [71:03] DNA that will never be replicated in the [71:05] past or in the future, right? There is a [71:08] uniqueness about every person. And And [71:10] there's a uniqueness about your parents, [71:12] about your background, about your early [71:13] years, [71:15] right? And that uniqueness is a seed [71:18] that if you plant if you cultivate it [71:20] and you and you use it and you know your [71:22] purpose and you you mine it for power, [71:26] in in mastery, I interviewed one of the [71:29] master I interviewed was a woman named [71:30] Temple Grandin, [71:32] who was born with severe autism. [71:36] At the age of two, she was about to be [71:37] committed to a hospital for the rest of [71:40] her life. She was She was like [71:43] almost like in a walking coma. [71:46] So, for some reason, they got her a [71:48] teacher to teach her language [71:51] and she started emerging a little bit. [71:53] And then slowly she blossomed [71:55] and she realized because it was [71:57] something common to a lot of autistic [71:58] people that she had an incredible [72:00] connection to animals. [72:02] A lot of autistic people have that. [72:05] She couldn't connect to people. They [72:06] were so tricky and deceptive. She She [72:08] didn't know how to deal with them, but [72:10] animals [72:11] give her a horse, a dog, a cow, [72:14] she felt like she was one of them. [72:16] She ended up following that path and [72:18] becoming a high-level [72:21] animal behavioral scientist who um she [72:24] was born with autism, [72:26] about to be committed for a hospital, [72:28] and yet she achieved incredible success [72:31] in life as a scientist. [72:33] I do honestly, and I'm not faking, I do [72:36] honestly believe that everyone has that [72:38] potential. [72:40] But it it's not equal in the outcomes of [72:43] that. There are a lot of people The [72:45] majority people don't follow that path, [72:48] but I do believe everybody has that [72:50] potential. [72:52] Is that potential [72:54] like objective greatness or is it our [72:57] own subjective greatness? I [72:59] I can become the greatest version of [73:01] Steven. Or do you believe that everyone [73:03] could become great in the context of, [73:06] you know, [73:07] the very best in the world like, you [73:09] know, Steve Jobs or [73:10] No, they're not You don't have to be the [73:11] very best in in the world. I mean, I [73:14] uh when I when Austerity came out, we [73:16] would [73:16] uh the New York Times wanted to do a [73:20] story about my house in the home [73:22] section. Okay, well, why? But all right. [73:26] I never get any publicity from [73:27] mainstream media. So, okay, fine. [73:29] So, I had to quickly upgrade my house [73:32] cuz they were going to come over with [73:33] photo photographers. [73:35] And we got a man over to do the tile [73:37] work on my patio, which looked like [73:39] hell. [73:40] And [73:42] I I told people this guy was a true [73:44] master. [73:45] He wasn't like [73:47] making six figures. Nobody would ever [73:50] write an article about him. [73:53] He will die and no one will ever know [73:54] that. But I could see in the quiet [73:56] quality and how well he understood and [73:59] the care that he took in it and how much [74:01] he enjoyed, [74:03] you know, creating a beautiful effect [74:05] with tile work, that he was a master. [74:08] It doesn't have to be the best ever. You [74:10] don't have to be famous and successful. [74:12] There are grades of this. There are [74:14] degrees of it. Some people [74:16] it's just being a great parent. [74:19] They're very social. They're very [74:20] empathetic. And they're not maybe going [74:22] to become [74:24] a extremely successful finance person, [74:27] but they're really good at raising their [74:29] children and they put to put a lot of [74:31] effort and care into it. That's [74:32] fantastic. [74:34] You don't have to be [74:36] famous. You don't have to be Steve Jobs. [74:38] There are levels of it, right? But the [74:40] sense of this was what I was meant to [74:43] accomplish and I'm I'm following it and [74:46] I'm happy with I do. I feel fulfilled by [74:49] my work, and I can go on doing it. I [74:52] take it seriously. I care about it. [74:55] I do believe that that anybody can have [74:58] that level of power in their life. I [75:00] think I struggle with that, if I'm being [75:02] honest, [75:03] on a personal level. [75:05] I struggle with [75:06] um [75:07] enough being enough. [75:09] And also, I think I've grown up in the [75:10] generation where there's so much [75:12] comparison everywhere we look, when we [75:14] open up our phones and Instagram, that [75:17] you kind of always are led to believe [75:18] that you're not quite there yet. Now, [75:21] I've contended with the idea that maybe [75:23] that's a good thing, because it drives [75:24] you forward. It's that pressure you [75:25] described. It's that creates that [75:27] urgency, that desperation. So, maybe I [75:29] should never believe I'm there yet. But [75:31] then also, I wonder, am I going to defer [75:34] happiness off into the future because I [75:36] think it's behind some kind of [75:38] accomplishment or job title or, [75:40] you know, success in my life. And it, [75:44] you know, when I hear about that tiler, [75:46] I go, that person that was tiling your [75:48] patio, [75:49] I'm really jealous, [75:51] because they sound content with much [75:53] less than would make me content. [75:56] What is the correct correct answer? Is [75:58] it to be the happy tiler who's tiling [76:01] the patio, or is it to be the [76:04] um impatient [76:07] Steve Jobs that's striving for the [76:09] personal computer? [76:12] Well, it depends on who you are. We're [76:14] all individuals. We all have our our [76:16] unique energies. It's the fact that you [76:19] engage, you love that you're emotionally [76:21] connected to it, that it gives you a [76:23] sense of fulfillment, that you're not [76:25] looking over your shoulder, oh, I I [76:27] could be doing this instead. [76:29] I'm fine with that. It doesn't have to [76:31] be the Steve Jobs who's continually [76:34] dissatisfied, who's Faustian, who always [76:37] has to have more. I'm not against that, [76:39] either. I don't know why we have to be [76:41] so judgmental. If people are following [76:44] the path and they are in love with what [76:46] they do and they have a genuine [76:48] connection to it, I'm not going to judge [76:50] because they're not famous or because [76:53] they're not trying to be the greatest, [76:55] the Michael Jordan of tiling or [76:57] whatever, etc. I think it's fine. And [77:00] you, you're not happy. You want to You [77:03] want to crush it. You want to be have [77:05] the number one podcast. That's fine as [77:08] well. Why can't we have [77:10] you know, that kind of diversity in our [77:12] world? The most important thing for both [77:15] those types of people, the the people [77:17] that have that sort of insatiable sense [77:19] of ambition, but also the people that [77:20] are content with whatever they're doing [77:22] in their lives. [77:24] From what I heard there is they both [77:26] love what they're doing. [77:27] Uh and they both have those core [77:29] components that you described earlier. [77:30] Like they both feel the challenge in [77:33] their work still. And that challenge [77:34] might be, okay, I'm going to do a bigger [77:36] patio today or it might be I'm going to [77:38] launch a billion-dollar business [77:39] tomorrow. For someone else. [77:41] And it's really about those core [77:42] components [77:43] of like challenge, meaning, purpose. [77:46] Yeah. [77:48] Yeah, because [77:49] what you don't want is you don't want to [77:51] be [77:52] in your 50s, in your 60s facing death. [77:56] You know, cuz your days are numbered. [77:58] Who knows how long you're going to live. [78:00] And you're going to go [78:01] damn it, I could have done something [78:03] with my life. [78:04] When I was a child, I had these dreams. [78:07] I thought I was going to be really great [78:09] at it. And I never realized it. I went [78:11] off on these other paths. I was lost. [78:14] I thought I was happy, but but I never [78:17] really [78:18] fulfilled any of those childhood dreams [78:20] or those fantasies. You know, it's a [78:22] terrible, terrible feeling and I want [78:24] people to avoid that. As long as it's [78:26] something that engages you, that's [78:28] connected to that child that you were, [78:30] it's something that you love and that [78:33] you you can create these challenges for [78:35] you. [78:37] Is death a motivator for you? [78:40] Well, um it certainly is now. [78:44] You know, cuz um [78:46] my days are are literally numbered. You [78:48] reach a certain age and you know, you [78:50] can literally count the numbers of the [78:53] days that might be left to you. And I [78:55] nearly died several years ago with my [78:58] stroke. Came this close to dying. [79:01] You know, I was driving my car [79:03] and if my wife hadn't suddenly [79:07] seen something, I wouldn't be talking to [79:09] you here right now. [79:10] Either I would have crashed and died or [79:12] I would have had such bad brain damage [79:14] that I'd be a vegetable. [79:16] So, [79:17] I know about death. I feel it in my [79:19] body. Every day I wake up. [79:22] I do my morning meditation. I'm aware [79:25] there's a practice that I have in my [79:27] meditation where [79:30] this could be my last thought. I could [79:32] die [79:33] 10 seconds from now. [79:35] What do I want in my head in those last [79:36] seconds? Do I want to have some petty [79:39] little thought about somebody who did [79:41] this or said that? Or do I want to have [79:43] something else greater in my head? I'm [79:46] constantly aware of my mortality. And [79:49] with the book that I'm writing, it's [79:51] always it's always in my mind because [79:55] frankly, [79:56] I'm aware that I might die before I [79:58] finish the book. So, now I've written [80:01] 2/3 of it. If I die tomorrow, the book [80:04] can be published. And I'd say okay, I [80:06] can live with that. [80:08] But uh you know, I'm in a hurry to get [80:10] it done because I know it could happen [80:13] at any moment. [80:14] You know, and it almost happened to me. [80:16] So, [80:18] I'm continually aware of it, but not in [80:19] a bad sense. [80:21] In a way of [80:23] it kind of makes gives meaning to my [80:25] life. [80:26] It makes me aware [80:29] of how, you know, valuable each moment [80:32] is and how things that everybody [80:35] I look out my window, I see people doing [80:37] things that I can't do anymore. [80:40] And I go, they take it all for granted. [80:42] They walk around unaware [80:45] of their mortality, of how their body [80:47] could break down at any day now. [80:49] I'm aware of it. So, I'm not going to [80:52] feel envy because I my mind is at a [80:56] different level. I'm aware of the of the [80:59] ephemeral nature of life and it makes [81:01] everything kind of beautiful to me. [81:03] Makes me appreciate everything around. I [81:05] don't mean to be too [81:07] sacarine about this cuz it could come [81:09] off that way because there is a dark [81:11] side to it and I definitely [81:13] in my dreams and in my thoughts, I have [81:15] a lot of that darkness. But, [81:18] I believe the awareness of death [81:21] is is a beautiful, beautiful thing. It's [81:23] It's It's It's It makes everything [81:26] intense and makes everything a glow. [81:30] With that awareness, if you were my age, [81:32] I've just turned 31. [81:35] What? You're a kid. [81:38] Jesus Christ, man. [81:41] I hate you. [81:46] I was 31, I was the biggest loser and [81:48] it's amazing. If I could transplant [81:51] that awareness from your head to my head [81:54] that you've got from the life you've [81:56] lived, but also from that stroke [81:58] incident and the perspective of your [82:00] mortality that it gave you and the [82:02] ephemerality of life that it showed you, [82:04] how would you think I would live my life [82:06] differently? [82:07] How would you have lived your life [82:09] differently when you were 31? [82:11] Uh, you know, I I make a point of I [82:13] never go through that exercise because [82:16] I believe in something called amor fati, [82:18] which means love of your fate. [82:20] Everything happened for a purpose. [82:22] I wouldn't have done anything [82:23] differently if I had to go back because [82:25] it all led to the right things. So, if [82:28] I'd been in a hurry when I was 22 to be [82:30] successful as a writer, I would have [82:32] never been able to write the books that [82:34] I wrote. Would have all gone askew. Who [82:36] knows where I would have ended up. I'm [82:38] very, very happy with I don't regret [82:40] anything. [82:42] But, if you're young, what often happens [82:44] is [82:46] because your life the pattern of your [82:48] life, if you think of it as a weaving, [82:50] is only like for you is only like a [82:52] third woven, right? For me, it's like [82:55] 2/3 woven, so I can see all of these [82:58] patterns that you can't see in your [83:00] life. But, at your stage, [83:03] you know, you tend to think [83:06] I've got all of this time ahead of me. [83:08] I'm so young. I've I can do this. I can [83:11] I can go travel here. I can do this [83:13] business and that business, et cetera, [83:15] et don't feel that sense of urgency. You [83:18] don't realize that tomorrow you could be [83:20] hit by a car. Tomorrow, you could [83:22] suddenly be diagnosed with cancer. [83:24] People are dying now in their 30s and [83:26] 40s. I read [83:28] Unfortunately, when you get older, a bad [83:29] habit is you start reading the obituary [83:31] pages. [83:34] I don't know why. [83:35] Um, and you will start reading about [83:37] people a lot of people who are in their [83:38] 40s and 50s are dying left, right, and [83:41] center in today for various reasons. [83:43] It can happen. And what it does to you [83:46] is it says [83:48] I only have so much time. [83:50] I wanted to accomplish this one thing [83:52] that I've been putting off. [83:54] Okay, you wrote your book. Maybe there's [83:56] something else that you've always wanted [83:57] to do, but you have never done. And [83:59] you're kind of putting it off. [84:01] A sense of urgency, a sense that your [84:03] time is relatively short [84:06] is a good thing. The other thing is, it [84:09] makes, as I said, it makes everything a [84:11] little more intense, a little more aglow [84:13] is the word I like to use. So, [84:17] I used to swim [84:20] like 3 days a week. [84:22] And I would swim long distances, and I [84:24] loved it. [84:26] It was my greatest therapy. [84:28] I just love getting out of my head and [84:30] just going being in the water, okay? [84:32] But I never appreciated it until now [84:34] when I can't do it. [84:36] So, I want you to appreciate you going [84:38] to the gym [84:40] having your health to being able to do [84:42] these things. Don't look at it like take [84:44] it for granted. And it pisses me off [84:47] that young people take all this stuff [84:48] for granted. They think that I'm [84:51] privileged because I have this success [84:53] story. No, when you're young, you have [84:55] all these privileges. You have your [84:56] health. You have other things that are [84:58] going to could be taken away from you. [85:00] Don't take for granted these things in [85:03] your life that you have that are not [85:04] going to last forever. Think in those [85:06] terms and think of of how more intense [85:10] everything around you becomes when you [85:11] have that mindset. One of the things I [85:14] think I worry that I take for granted is [85:15] my [85:18] romantic relationship with my partner. [85:21] And you know, hearing your story of of [85:23] being in that car that day, it's [85:26] literally evident that your romantic [85:27] partner can save your life. [85:30] She did. And um yeah, [85:33] uh [85:34] you know, we've been together for a [85:35] while. I'm not going to say how many [85:37] years because she doesn't like hearing [85:38] that. Cuz [85:40] um [85:41] so, you know, we have a a [85:44] a deep rich past. [85:46] And it and it's a wonderful thing. And [85:48] she saved my life. And saving someone's [85:49] life [85:51] man, it really is important really means [85:53] a lot. It kind of changes things. [85:55] And in my book that I'm writing now, [85:59] I wrote a chapter on love, which is [86:01] something I've never written about, [86:02] obviously. Written about seduction, etc. [86:04] But I've never written about love. And I [86:06] wrote about [86:08] the ins the incredible the sublime [86:11] quality that you can have when you allow [86:13] yourself to go deeper and deeper and [86:15] deeper into that falling process where [86:18] you get rid of your your ego, you get [86:20] rid of your defenses, you get rid of all [86:22] the resistance, and you just let [86:24] yourself fall, fall, fall, fall, fall, [86:26] and you connect to someone on that [86:28] deeper, deeper level. [86:31] It's as I say, it's it's a chapter on [86:33] the sublime because it is a very sublime [86:35] experience. [86:36] And the reason I wrote it is I feel like [86:38] people [86:39] are missing that now [86:41] because there's so [86:43] they don't want to be vulnerable. [86:46] They don't want any pain. [86:48] And falling for another person [86:50] and letting go of your defenses opens [86:52] you up to pain. [86:54] Right? And we just want to we don't want [86:56] to experience that. We want to be [86:57] invulnerable. [87:00] And it's like cutting off all the [87:02] richest experiences in life. [87:05] And so I wrote that chapter addressing [87:07] that and say, "Let go of your defenses. [87:10] Let go of your resistance. Let yourself [87:12] go into that process of falling. Let [87:15] feel what it feels like to have your ego [87:18] dissolved in the presence of another [87:20] person and care more about them than you [87:23] care about yourself." [87:25] You mentioned a second ago [87:28] dark thoughts and dark dreams. [87:31] We all have dark thoughts. Our dark [87:33] thoughts are our own. [87:35] How do you go about dealing with dark [87:37] thoughts and what are those dark [87:39] thoughts that you're able to share? [87:42] Well, [87:44] you know, um [87:46] in my dreams [87:48] I'll be doing all kinds of weird things. [87:51] Uh a lot of times there'll be guilt. [87:54] Like, [87:55] "Did I actually murder that person? Are [87:57] the police actually after me? [87:59] Damn it, what's going to happen? What's [88:01] going to happen to my reputation?" Then [88:02] I wake up. [88:04] You know? So all that kind of stuff [88:05] happens. [88:06] But also [88:08] doubts about myself and depression and [88:12] about [88:13] I've I've dealt my whole life with [88:14] feelings of like not being [88:16] very worthy. [88:18] Like even doubting my success. [88:22] Doubting [88:23] that my work is any good. [88:25] Doubting that I deserve it. [88:28] I had a you know a lot of periods in my [88:30] life where I I wasn't successful. [88:33] And um [88:35] I kind of had it ingrained in me that I [88:37] could do better I could do better I [88:38] could do better. [88:39] I wasn't a good parent to myself. I was [88:42] very tough on myself. [88:44] And a lot of my dark thoughts are I'm [88:45] still very tough on myself. [88:48] And it's like [88:51] you know [88:52] The other dark thoughts that I have is [88:55] I can't do the things that I used to be [88:57] able to do. [88:59] Is life even worth living? [89:01] When you can't like hike when you can't [89:03] swim when you can't [89:05] go out on your bicycle when you can't [89:08] travel normally. [89:10] Do Do I Is it really worth it? [89:14] You know maybe maybe death wouldn't be [89:16] so bad compared to that. I go through [89:18] that. [89:19] And then I go [89:21] I talk myself out of it again and again [89:24] and again. [89:25] But my dark thoughts are about [89:28] about myself and my doubts [89:30] and about the state of my body as it is [89:33] right now kind of thing. If I said to [89:35] you that I had those same doubts [89:38] about you know if I was [89:40] if we were [89:41] identical in every way and I said well [89:43] but I'm having a lot of doubts about I [89:45] can't go out on my bicycle I can't do [89:46] the things I used to do. I'm wondering [89:48] if life is worth living. And I asked you [89:50] for advice I said I don't know what to [89:51] do about all this self-doubt I have [89:52] about these books that I've written. [89:55] What would you say to me? [89:57] Well um I would say um [90:00] There's a lot of people who talk a lot [90:02] in life [90:03] who [ __ ] their way who say they've [90:05] accomplished this that and the other and [90:06] they've never done anything. [90:09] You have a book out there that you can [90:10] be very proud of, that you can die [90:12] tomorrow and it's like [90:15] a memento that will live on forever. [90:18] And you've accomplished it. You've [90:19] accomplished this stuff with your [90:20] podcast. You've actually made things. [90:24] So, focus on that. Focus on the fact [90:27] that so many people [90:28] never get out of bed and uh amount to [90:31] anything. [90:32] So, you've built things. You've [90:34] accomplished things. Focus on that. [90:37] And then [90:39] about your body, [90:41] well, you know, [90:43] when you're dead, it's it's all gone. [90:45] Who knows what life what there is on the [90:46] other side, but [90:48] just think of [90:51] of the insanity of what it means to be [90:53] alive. And that's another chapter in my [90:55] in my new book. The odds [90:58] against you, Stephen, of ever being born [91:01] are absolutely insane, and I describe [91:03] those odds in the book. [91:05] And I go through from the very first [91:08] cells that ever from life forming on [91:09] planet Earth to the evolution leading to [91:12] us sitting here [91:14] is unbelievable. So, that you are alive [91:18] is an incredible astounding thing, and [91:20] you have to think about that. And you [91:22] have to think about [91:24] just seeing the sky, just being aware [91:28] is is an amazing thing. So, I often [91:30] think about [91:32] people who are suicidal. [91:34] There are a lot of people like that in [91:36] life, particularly nowadays. And I know [91:38] cuz I went through that period [91:41] most strongly in my early to mid-30s as [91:44] I was contemplating the lack of success [91:46] in my life. [91:47] Um [91:49] you know, and [91:50] what kept me going was I still believed [91:52] that I could accomplish something. So, [91:54] even in my darkest moments, I managed to [91:56] pull myself out. [91:58] But then I I think of people who maybe [92:00] don't have that energy, who are kind of [92:02] going down that hole. [92:04] And I know from my own experience that [92:07] hearing somebody tell them [92:09] that life is is an incredibly amazing [92:12] fact won't have any effect on them. [92:15] Right? Because it's it doesn't connect [92:16] to them emotionally. And I often think, [92:18] how could I connect to them emotionally? [92:21] How could I make it clear to them [92:23] that there's something there that that's [92:25] worth preserving. [92:26] I don't have the answer here today, but [92:29] I think about that all the time. Like, [92:31] how would I deal with somebody who is [92:34] suicidal? And I get people writing me [92:36] like that. And we've had I've had [92:38] relatives in those situations before. [92:41] So, that's something I think a lot [92:42] about. [92:44] It's it's a difficult question to [92:46] answer. [92:47] What you have to say to that person in [92:49] that situation to get them to believe in [92:52] the sublime, to get them to believe that [92:54] there's life is worth living. [92:57] I ponder whether [93:01] what maybe you need to do is to get them [93:04] to take the first step to create [93:05] evidence for themselves somehow. [93:07] Whatever that small first step is. [93:10] great. I think that's I think that's [93:11] spot-on. That's exactly what you have to [93:13] do. They they have to come to [93:14] to the realization themselves. [93:17] And through some [93:18] action that you get them to do, which [93:21] makes them gives them a little bit of an [93:23] ounce of belief in themself, then the [93:25] spiral can turn around. So, I I think [93:28] you're right. It has to be come from [93:29] them, but it has to come through [93:30] something that they actually do. All the [93:32] talk in the world [93:34] won't really help them. [93:36] What that is is something that I you [93:39] know, I would like to think about it. [93:40] It's [93:41] and it depends on the individual, but [93:43] that I think that is the way to do it. [93:45] You're writing this book at the moment [93:46] called this sublime, right? [93:48] Are you writing that book because [93:51] of the situation you found yourself in [93:52] after having the stroke and and going [93:54] through that journey of saying, why is [93:56] life worth living?" And going in search [93:59] of the sublime that we all have [94:02] inherently. Well, to be honest with you, [94:04] about 20 years ago, I had the idea for [94:06] the book. I read a book [94:08] on the subject, [94:10] and I got excited about it because they [94:11] were explaining it as [94:14] it's a kind of experience that's very [94:16] hard to verbalize, that goes outside of [94:20] what we normally experience. [94:22] And I got very excited by the idea. [94:25] And I planned to write that book. And [94:28] then in around [94:29] after war, that was going to be my [94:31] fourth book. And my agent was getting [94:33] all prepared to sell it. And then I got [94:36] hooked into 50 Cent. And I did that book [94:39] instead, and put it on the back burner. [94:41] And then Mastery came up, and I got [94:43] hooked into that. And suddenly, it kind [94:46] of got pushed aside. [94:48] And then in in Human Nature, first of [94:50] all, the last chapter in the 50 Cent [94:52] book is on the sublime. It's about death [94:55] and [94:55] and what 50 and and facing it. Then the [94:58] last chapter in Human Nature is about [95:00] the sublime. It's about death and [95:01] mortality. [95:03] And the irony is [95:05] that [95:07] 2 and 1/2 months after finishing that [95:09] chapter in the book, I I nearly died. [95:12] But what I had planned originally was [95:15] I was going to [95:17] go to the Gobi Desert and and and walk [95:20] across the Gobi Desert. I was going to [95:22] go swim with whales. [95:24] You know, literally whales in New [95:26] Zealand. I was going to go to Tierra del [95:29] Fuego. I was going to have all of these [95:30] sublime experiences and write about [95:32] them. [95:34] And now I can't do any of that, right? [95:37] All I can do is sit in my [95:40] my little room in my house, [95:42] at my desk, and write the book. It's all [95:45] in my head. [95:47] The book is so much better because of [95:49] that. So, it's changed. I can't go to [95:52] the Gobi Desert. I can't swim with [95:55] whales or I drown. I can't go to Tierra [95:57] del Fuego. I could only sit in my [95:59] office, look at the birds, go through [96:02] the books that I'm reading, and write [96:04] the book, keeping in mind other people [96:07] and what's going on in the world and [96:08] their life and my limitations. [96:11] So, ironically, the book has become [96:13] better [96:14] because I had to go through this [96:16] experience. But, nearly dying was going [96:19] little bells were going off in my head. [96:20] All right, it's time to write that book. [96:22] You're not putting it off any longer. [96:24] And has it forced you to find the [96:26] sublime in the everyday [96:29] life? Well, obviously. I mean, um [96:32] I'm writing right now a chapter [96:35] on what I call the daemon, [96:37] which is an ancient Greek concept that [96:40] all of us are born with like a guardian [96:43] spirit. [96:45] Right? I know it sounds very mystical, [96:47] but a lot of psychologists, contemporary [96:49] psychologists, have written about the [96:51] daemon phenomena. The idea that you have [96:54] a second self, a kind of higher self, [96:57] that in some way is guiding you. And it [96:59] has a lot to do with some of the things [97:00] we've talked about, purpose, etc. [97:04] And I have to think about it. I have to [97:05] think about it in terms of my own life. [97:07] I have to think about [97:09] is there something else inside of me [97:10] that's communicating to me? What does [97:12] that mean? How does that connect with [97:15] other ideas about the universe? I get to [97:17] read books about it. It's a very, very [97:20] exciting process. It's It's keeping me [97:23] alive right now. And then, you know, I [97:25] write a chapter about animals and what's [97:27] sublime about [97:29] interspecies communication. And now I [97:32] get to look at my cat. [97:34] I don't look at my cat or I don't look [97:36] at the birds the same way as I did [97:37] before I wrote that chapter. So, it's [97:39] changing me and it's lifting me out of [97:42] the kind of [97:43] People who have strokes, [97:45] we all have to go through terrible [97:46] diseases, all of us unfortunately, [97:49] unless we die by an accident. Cancer, [97:51] etc. [97:52] Strokes. [97:55] The number one thing that happens is is [97:56] terrible depression. [97:58] To suddenly lose your body and what you [98:01] can do. And so this has kept me out of [98:03] that depression, I have to say. [98:06] You said that all of your books have [98:08] been kind of focused on different [98:09] subjects, and that's very much the case. [98:11] There's sometimes three lines between [98:13] the different books, but they're all [98:14] very much focused on a variety of [98:15] different subjects. If there was [98:19] a message [98:21] that [98:22] kind of brings all of your work [98:23] together. If this was your last day on [98:26] Earth, [98:28] what would the message that you would [98:29] want to leave the world with be? [98:33] Wow, that's a [98:35] really good question. [98:37] Um [98:40] A lot of my books [98:42] have to do with um [98:45] the reality of our life. [98:47] And and what [98:49] not not what we want to believe. [98:52] Not our our fake ideas about it. Not our [98:55] illusions, etc. [98:57] But what life is really really like. [99:00] This is the human animal. This is how [99:02] they behave. This is what will seduce [99:04] them. This what was what will turn them [99:06] off. This is how strategies will get us [99:09] what we want in life. This is how [99:12] you can master your subject. Not the [99:14] [ __ ] thing that people tell you [99:15] about mastery, where you can take a [99:17] drug, where you can hack your way to [99:19] mastery. This is the truth. This is the [99:21] reality. So all of my books, the through [99:24] line is [99:25] this is what the world is really like. [99:27] It's not ugly. [99:29] It's not beautiful. It just is. [99:32] And it's great to just relate to the [99:34] world as it is. To see things as they [99:37] are. It kind of is liberating. And in a [99:40] way it is kind of beautiful to just [99:43] connect to the reality and not being [99:45] inside of your wishes about why can't [99:48] people be more like this? Why can't [99:49] somebody tell me this? Why can't they [99:51] give me this? Why can't I be successful? [99:53] Blah blah blah blah blah. Getting rid of [99:54] your illusions and just looking at the [99:57] way that life is [99:59] is sort of I guess would be the through [100:00] through line of all of my books. Do you [100:03] see life as a bit of a game? And is that [100:05] a healthier way to view life? A game [100:07] where we need to learn the rules and [100:08] then play the game versus fight against [100:12] um the injustice of the rules of the [100:14] game? [100:16] Yeah, it's all a game. Um definitely. Uh [100:20] there was a great um uh man on the left [100:23] named Saul Alinsky who wrote a book [100:26] called Rules for Radicals. [100:28] He was a strategist for union [100:31] organizing. And he hated He would hate [100:35] the world today with people with all of [100:37] their virtue signaling and everything. [100:39] He said, "If you want to change life, if [100:41] you believe that there's injustice, you [100:43] have to be a strategist. [100:45] It's warfare. You have to organize. You [100:48] have to understand the rules that will [100:50] lead to actual change in this world." [100:53] And whenever you enter the realm of [100:55] rules and strategy, it is like a game, [100:59] you know? And so, yeah, I believe that [101:02] and I believe [101:03] people with all their moralistic ideas [101:05] who think just because they believe [101:08] something is right that it that it it it [101:10] will get get what they want. They're [101:12] just living in in They're just They're [101:14] the fools. [101:15] You have to strategize. If you don't, [101:18] you're just bullshitting. You're just [101:20] pretend You're just virtue signaling. [101:23] You want people to see you as a saint. [101:25] If you're not willing to get your hands [101:26] dirty and to organize and to say, "I've [101:30] got to take this A B C D. I have to [101:33] figure out the process of getting [101:34] there." [101:35] then all you're doing is just playing a [101:38] game of appearances as opposed to the [101:39] real game of getting things done in [101:41] life. What is the opposite of that [101:43] strategy you're talking about? So, I'm [101:44] trying to figure out the [101:47] the average person that is currently not [101:49] strategizing [101:51] in their life, what are they doing? [101:55] Well, um [101:57] you know, everybody [101:59] I guess you could say everybody has a [102:01] strategy, but their strategies are [102:03] extremely ineffective. Their strategies [102:06] are full of illusions. So, human beings [102:09] have to strategize because to wake up in [102:11] the morning and to go, "I've got to make [102:13] breakfast." You got to strategize how [102:16] you're going to cook and what you're [102:17] going to make and what you're going to [102:18] do to the day and what you're going to [102:19] wear. [102:21] You know, it's human it's human nature. [102:23] It's just people do it very, very badly [102:27] and they do it badly because they're so [102:28] emotional. [102:30] Now, I'm not against emotions and [102:32] emotions play a huge role and I'm [102:34] writing a lot about it in my new book. [102:36] But the ability to get things done, you [102:39] have to be in control of your emotions. [102:40] You have to take a step back and you [102:41] have to go [102:43] "I'm not going to react. [102:46] This person is pressuring me. They're [102:48] saying these things. My natural tendency [102:51] is to react, get my back up and bite [102:54] back. No. [102:56] I'm going to step back and I'm going to [102:57] go [102:59] "What's going to make them shut the [ __ ] [103:01] up? What's going to make them get out of [103:02] my life? What's going to make what's [103:04] going to get rid of them? What's going [103:05] to defeat them if they're an adversary? [103:08] All right. [103:09] I made that decision not to react to get [103:11] emotional. All right, now I have to [103:12] think. [103:13] If I do this, they're going to react [103:16] this way, but if I surprise them with [103:18] this angle, they won't know what to do [103:20] and then they'll they'll react in a [103:21] different way and I'll be in control of [103:23] the situation." [103:25] I strategize. I go through a process of [103:28] of gaming out the possibilities here. [103:31] And that's to be a strategist. The [103:33] opposite is a book that I meant to write [103:36] after seduction, which is a book about [103:38] human stupidity. [103:40] To not be strategic is to be stupid. And [103:43] and stupid stupid people create more [103:45] damage in this life than anybody else [103:48] with their bad strategies, their bad [103:50] wars, the bad things they lead people [103:52] into, their bad politics, etc. So, [103:55] that's the opposite of strategy is [103:57] stupidity. [103:59] I also have within there that sort of [104:00] emotion. Being emotionally driven is [104:03] very much it doesn't allow you to have [104:05] effective strategies because you'll get [104:07] caught up in [104:09] Yeah, you'll get caught up [104:09] personal things. personal things and [104:11] yeah, and things that probably don't [104:13] matter. That ability to rise above [104:14] though, I think we all want to master [104:16] that. I would love to master the ability [104:18] to rise above in all situations at all [104:20] times. [104:21] Well, you can. [104:23] When you're younger, it's harder because [104:25] because you've got your hormones, you've [104:27] got all that energy, got all that [104:28] adrenaline, it's harder. If you get [104:29] older, gets a little bit easier. Do you [104:32] have a a system that you use just to [104:34] detach yourself from the emotion [104:35] sometimes? [104:37] Well, I'm not always good at it. Um so, [104:41] I've learned [104:43] to not react emotionally when people say [104:46] something that I think is going to be [104:47] triggering. [104:48] I just [104:50] don't do anything. [104:51] I go into my Zen mode. [104:54] Oh, it's just it's just life, it's just [104:56] words, it's just verbiage, it doesn't [104:57] matter, it doesn't mean anything to me. [104:59] I'm neutral, I'm unaffected, I'm in my [105:01] citadel. Goodbye, fine, it's okay. [105:05] If I get angry [105:07] and I write that email, which I still [105:08] do, I don't send it. I put it in my [105:11] draft box. [105:13] I look at it a week later and go, "What [105:14] the heck was I thinking about? I'm glad [105:16] you didn't send that." You know, you [105:18] delay your reactions. [105:20] But mostly, I've trained myself and I [105:23] must say my meditation practices helped [105:25] me [105:26] to not react when people say things that [105:28] are so annoying that they get under my [105:30] skin. I just go, [105:31] "That's them. It's not me. They're [105:34] another human being. [105:35] They have a bad idea. I don't care. It's [105:37] not my bad idea. It's their life." [105:40] As you know, Whoop are sponsors of this [105:41] podcast and I'm an investor in the [105:43] company and last month I had the chance [105:45] to sit down with Kristen Holmes. She's a [105:46] VP of performance at Whoop and I learned [105:48] so much from our conversation about [105:50] circadian rhythms and things like sleep. [105:52] Studies show that for every 45 minutes [105:54] of sleep that that you accrue, that your [105:56] decision-making ability will drop by up [105:58] to 10% and when you're chronically [106:01] underslept, you're only be a fraction of [106:03] the person, the fraction of the boss, [106:05] partner, friend, manager that you can [106:07] be. That's why I'm obsessed with Whoop, [106:10] which not just tracks but coaches you on [106:12] how to get better at sleep so you can [106:14] bring your best to everything that you [106:16] choose to do. If you're not convinced, [106:18] you can try Whoop for 30 days completely [106:20] risk-free with zero commitment just by [106:23] going to join.whoop.com/ceo. [106:28] That's join.whoop.com/ceo and let me [106:30] know how you get on. If you don't like [106:34] it, there's no commitment. [106:35] join.whoop.com/ceo. [106:39] Earlier you mentioned the opposite of [106:40] strategy was [106:42] So let's talk about politics. [106:45] It's a really interesting time in [106:46] politics at the moment. I'm really [106:48] obsessed with US politics in particular [106:49] because [106:51] it's more like a reality show over here [106:52] than um [106:54] in the UK it's quite boring. It is very [106:56] boring over there, I must admit. [106:58] This year Trump is running for [106:59] re-election against Biden. [107:01] The country seems to be very divided for [107:03] a number of different reasons. It feels [107:05] I don't know. I just feel like it's more [107:06] divided than ever. I do feel like the [107:08] left has moved further left than ever [107:10] before to the point that I I struggle to [107:12] resonate with that side and I still [107:14] don't resonate with the the right. So I [107:16] kind of feel a bit trapped. What do you [107:18] think of everything that's going on and [107:19] how How your kind of work form what's [107:22] happening and [107:24] everything in between? [107:26] Well, um we all have biases and um [107:29] I've come from more of the [107:32] the liberal side, the left side. [107:34] Uh I was actually [107:36] rather extreme when I was younger. So, I [107:39] have that bias. [107:41] Um so, I'm not really going to be [107:42] objective. So, let's get that out of the [107:44] way, right? You know, I have my [107:47] emotional reactions, my triggering by [107:50] what I see. [107:52] But, um [107:53] I'm very concerned [107:56] about the overall spirit, the overall [107:59] zeitgeist. [108:00] So, [108:02] I worked as um [108:04] I know this is sound like I'm going in a [108:06] in a tangent, but bear with me. [108:08] I was on the board of directors of a [108:10] publicly traded company, American [108:12] Apparel. [108:14] And I was brought on there because I was [108:16] friends with the CEO. But, he thought of [108:18] me as a strategist cuz he loved the 48 [108:20] Laws of Power. [108:22] And I started seeing the things were [108:24] kind of going downhill. [108:26] And I sort of had my finger on what the [108:28] problem was. [108:30] The problem was [108:32] our [108:33] our demographic was basically young [108:36] women the ages 18 to 24. [108:39] That's a very difficult demographic to [108:41] deal with because their taste change [108:43] very quickly. [108:44] They're very viral, etc., etc. [108:47] And so, [108:48] what worked early on with American [108:50] Apparel, it was suddenly slowly becoming [108:52] a cliché, [108:54] right? And it wasn't going to translate [108:56] well to a new generation coming up, [108:59] which ended up being Gen Z. [109:01] And so, I had the idea of like [109:03] we need to have these retreats, these [109:05] yearly things where we step back from [109:08] the day-to-day business and we think [109:10] about the brand, where we're going, how [109:12] we're going to adapt. We're not going to [109:14] change it, but we're going to adapt, [109:16] etc., etc. [109:17] I presented it to the CEO and uh well, [109:19] no, we don't need any that blah blah [109:20] blah. [109:21] What I came away with was that the [109:23] reason businesses are so awful, large [109:26] business, why they suck, why they're [109:27] never successful, why they're so damn [109:30] annoying [109:31] is because they're always dealing with [109:33] the quarterly report, at least for [109:35] publicly traded businesses, right? They [109:37] can't have a long-term vision because [109:39] they can't afford it. They have to deal [109:42] with what Wall Street will say to that [109:44] quarterly report. And and you know what [109:47] what what what the investors are going [109:48] to how they're going to react. To sit [109:50] there and step back and think about [109:52] where you're going to be in a year or [109:53] two, we might not even exist in a year [109:55] or two, so forget it. [109:56] Well, politics is the same thing. You've [109:59] got to win elections. You're facing [110:02] every couple of years, every four years. [110:04] You don't have the luxury of thinking of [110:06] the larger picture. And that's what [110:08] we're suffering from right now because [110:11] if you look at the political situation [110:13] in America [110:15] nobody has any loyalty to anything. [110:18] So, in my age when I grew up you were a [110:21] Democrat you were a Republican. [110:24] And you had kind of roots and you [110:26] believed in that because well, the [110:28] Democratic Party was for the working [110:30] class. We were for the unions. We were [110:32] for the common guy, the little guy, the [110:34] FDR mentality, even to some extent [110:37] Kennedy and Johnson. The Republicans, we [110:40] were for big business, for lower taxes, [110:43] blah blah blah blah blah blah blah. [110:46] You had a sense of connection to it. Now [110:48] people have no connection at all to any [110:50] particular party, which is fine. I don't [110:52] I don't But what that means is it's so [110:55] volatile. So, somebody will vote for [110:58] Obama [110:59] then they'll vote for Trump then they'll [111:02] vote for Biden and then they'll vote for [111:04] Trump again and there are plenty people [111:06] in that situation. They have no roots, [111:08] they're not connected to anything. And [111:11] it's not people's fault, it's our [111:12] politics' fault. They're not creating a [111:15] sense of what it means to be an [111:18] American. [111:19] What is it Can you give us [111:21] a story, [111:23] a myth about what it means to be an [111:25] American in 2024 that will connect us, [111:29] that will kind of give us a sense of [111:31] what is beautiful about our country? [111:32] Because there are beautiful things about [111:34] it. [111:35] It's possible. It's very possible to [111:38] create that kind of a vision. If you can [111:41] step back and you can think in longer [111:43] term. All right, maybe it's hard to do [111:45] that for America, but what is it for the [111:47] goddamn Democratic Party? What does it [111:49] mean to be a Democrat? What does it mean [111:51] to be Now to be a Republican, it just [111:53] means to be a lapdog for Donald Trump, [111:55] to believe everything he does. But the [111:57] Democrats have their own problems, their [111:59] own issues. [112:00] It doesn't You can't have a party that's [112:02] just against everything. [112:04] What are you for? I often tell people, [112:07] "I'm sick of hearing what you hate. I'm [112:09] sick of hearing what you're against. I'm [112:10] sick of hearing what you're complaining. [112:12] Tell me what you want. Tell me what [112:13] you're for. Tell me your vision of what [112:16] a great country would be like." [112:19] But you can't They can't do that because [112:20] they're only in this bubble of what I [112:22] hate, what I'm against, it's what I'm [112:23] trying to protect, etc., etc. So, [112:27] there's got to be a a politician that [112:29] rises up at some point that has a vision [112:32] that's not just a demagogue, that's not [112:34] just a charismatic that's looking out [112:36] for themself. [112:38] They can connect the dots. They can say, [112:40] "This is what it means to be in this [112:42] party. This is our vision. This is what [112:44] connects. This is the glue." [112:46] Yeah, there're going to be little [112:47] separate parts of it. Okay, but we're [112:50] the party of the of the working class, [112:53] right? We're the party that's going to [112:55] protect people, protect make life easier [112:58] for them. Or we're the party [113:00] of business, etc., etc. I don't care [113:03] what it is, but create a vision, a sense [113:06] of who you are, of what it connects to. [113:10] Hit people in their heart, in their [113:12] You see, Trump succeeds because he has [113:15] an an emotional, visceral effect on [113:18] people, and he's very good at it. [113:20] The Democrats can't learn that. It's [113:22] always about [113:23] a laundry list of we're going to do A, [113:26] B, C, D, and E. We're going to hit the [113:28] numbers. We're going to reduce [113:29] inflation. We're going to create this [113:30] amount of jobs, etc. It's all in the [113:32] head. It's not in here. You've got to [113:34] create You've got to connect to people [113:37] viscerally, emotionally. You have to [113:39] create a myth that will connect people [113:42] even within their disparate little [113:44] niches. And it's possible because to [113:46] believe it's impossible goes against the [113:48] grain of history. Somebody will emerge. [113:51] I might be dead when it happens, who [113:54] will go through that some process for [113:56] that because otherwise everything will [113:58] fall apart. [114:01] Robert, we have a closing tradition on [114:02] this podcast where the last guest leaves [114:03] a question for the next guest. Oh, I [114:05] didn't I didn't I didn't prepare. It's [114:08] okay. I'm sure I'm sure you can come up [114:10] with a one about the sublime, maybe. I [114:12] don't know. We'll see. [114:14] The question for you is [114:18] Okay, and you're not allowed to say [114:20] nothing. [114:21] If you could change one thing from your [114:23] last 10 years, what would it be and why? [114:30] Well, um [114:32] I would have [114:33] I would have prevented my stroke. [114:35] Um I would have [114:37] realized that I was burning myself out [114:40] writing The Laws of Human Nature. I [114:41] would have taken it slower. [114:44] I would have realized that my body has [114:46] limits, [114:47] and I would have uh [114:49] I would have been easier on myself [114:52] and not put myself cuz that book was [114:54] very stressful and very difficult. I [114:57] would have taken it slower. I would have [114:58] gone [115:00] at a different pace, [115:02] and I wouldn't have had my stroke. [115:04] And I'd be so much happier. [115:07] Do you think you could have prevented [115:09] your stroke? [115:09] Yeah. [115:11] Definitely. I mean, um [115:14] it was a weird set of circumstances. [115:17] Um but the stress of writing The Human [115:19] Nature kind of ground ground me down. [115:22] And then I had kind of high blood [115:24] pressure already. [115:26] And then I took a trip to New York where [115:27] I forgot my blood pressure medication. [115:30] And then I was hiking in a park and a [115:32] wasp stung me here. [115:35] And 5 days later, this whole area got [115:38] inflamed to red. I was itching. I [115:40] couldn't stand it. Went to the doctor. [115:42] They prescribed me [115:44] basically a steroid which raised my [115:47] blood pressure to the roof. [115:49] And then when I had the stroke, my blood [115:51] clot was exactly where that wasp sting [115:53] was in my neck. [115:55] So, [115:56] if I hadn't [115:58] worn myself into the ground, if I hadn't [116:00] forgotten my blood pressure medication, [116:03] if I hadn't if that doctor hadn't [116:05] prescribed to me that nasty prednisone, [116:08] if I'd just been more careful like that, [116:10] I probably wouldn't have had the stroke. [116:14] Are you able to forgive that sequence of [116:16] events and the people involved? Yeah, I [116:18] have to. I've forgiven the wasp. [116:22] You know, [116:22] that wasp maybe died because of me [116:24] because I don't know if wasps die when [116:26] they sting you. Bees do, but I've [116:28] forgiven the wasp. [116:30] Um I've walked past that spot where the [116:32] wasp stung me and given my little prayer [116:35] to it and said, "I'm sorry about your [116:36] little life, etc." [116:38] And yeah, I've I've forgiven uh [116:40] I I've gotten over that and [116:43] I've made my peace with it. You know [116:45] what? [116:46] It was meant to happen. [116:48] Amor fati, it was my fate. [116:51] And probably it happened for a good [116:54] reason. I mean, I'm [116:55] right now contradicting my answer to [116:57] that person's question, but so what? [116:59] That's life. [117:00] Because [117:02] the way I think about it is [117:04] I was kind of reckless [117:07] with what I thought I could do. And [117:09] probably if I hadn't had my stroke, I [117:10] probably would have something else bad [117:11] would have happened. [117:13] Because I I didn't realize my physical [117:15] limits. I probably would have And so I'm [117:18] alive. [117:19] I have my brain, and I'm writing this [117:21] next book. So, it happened for a reason. [117:25] If that bee wasn't there that day [117:27] wasp Sorry. It's my correction. [117:29] If that wasp [117:30] No, no precious again, please, please. [117:32] If that wasp wasn't there that day, and [117:34] I say this because I I've been reading a [117:36] few books recently about how throughout [117:38] human history these tiny little events [117:41] like the Nagasaki where they dropped the [117:42] bombs and all of these tiny little [117:44] events with a a cloud that flew over a [117:46] city [117:47] effect. [117:48] All of the little butterfly effect [117:49] things. [117:50] Is there anything from [117:52] the how these tiny seemingly [117:54] insignificant chance events can have [117:56] massive consequences? [117:57] to make me cry. Cuz what if there was [117:59] like a little bit of wind and the wasp [118:02] didn't come directly in my path? [118:05] Yeah. [118:07] I know. [118:08] It's horrifying. But is there anything [118:10] cuz that's the nature of the world we [118:11] live in [118:13] where tiny little things that we cannot [118:15] predict can determine our lives in huge [118:19] ways, can sway our lives in huge ways. [118:21] Is there anything that we can [118:24] do about it? No, there's nothing you can [118:26] do about it. You you know, it's it's [118:28] it's Ryan Holiday will talk to you about [118:30] it. You What you can do is the stoic [118:33] philosophy is how you react to it [118:35] mentally. You can't change the physical [118:38] circumstance, but you can change how you [118:40] think about it and how you react. [118:43] Robert, thank you so much for your time [118:44] and your wisdom. And I'm so very, very [118:46] excited for your upcoming book because [118:48] if it's anything like your past books, [118:51] it's really something worth waiting for [118:53] and That's nice to hear. Thank you. [118:54] Before we start recording, you told me [118:56] about the process you're going through. [118:57] You've spent 4 years writing this [118:58] upcoming book, Sublime. [119:00] So far it's been 4 and 1/2. It'll be [119:01] another year and 1/2. So that'll be 6 [119:03] total years. [119:04] Yes. For instance, I it's so incredibly [119:07] it's so inspiring to me. Well, keep this [119:09] in mind, Stephen. I can't type. Mhm. So, [119:13] um my I was used to be a fast typist. [119:16] Mhm. And I can't go up take a hike to [119:18] clear my head. So everything It's not [119:21] like it takes double. Takes like [119:24] It's like 1 and 1/2 times more. I have [119:26] to write things out by hand. [119:29] I have to edit by hand. I have to [119:30] dictate into the computer. I have to [119:32] edit with one hand. [119:34] I have to clear my mind without hiking. [119:37] So everything takes 1 and 1/2 times [119:39] more. [119:40] That's probably So probably would have [119:41] been like a 4 or 5-year book. But as you [119:44] said about your cycle, when you slow [119:45] things down, sometimes you enjoy them [119:47] more and you make better things. [119:49] I think you're right. And And probably [119:50] the slower cooking will make a better [119:52] book. [119:53] Exactly right. I can't wait. I hope [119:55] everyone has your existing books cuz [119:57] they're all [119:58] um as everyone's witnessed today, [119:59] they're all based on [120:02] challenging but important enduring [120:03] wisdom. [120:05] Every single one of them. [120:06] And I think we need more challenging [120:08] wisdom in our society these days. Well, [120:10] thank you. So thank you so much, Robert. [120:12] You're a real um You're welcome, man. [120:13] here at To Many. Thank you so much. [120:15] Okay. Thank you, Stephen. Thank you for [120:16] inviting me back. [120:41] Oh.