Jocko Willink Links High-Performance Leadership to Detachment

乔科·威林克：高效领导力源于保持抽离 彻底的个人担当与情绪上的抽离，使领导者能够做出有效决策、打造坚韧团队并保持长期成功。 乔科·威林克回顾了他从童年抱负到成为海豹突击队军官的历程，详述了严苛选拔与伊拉克实战如何塑造了他的领导力哲学。他倡导毫无借口承担完全个人责任的“极致担当”，并阐释了为何抽离、渐进式暴露和谦逊对于建立真正的自信与高效领导力不可或缺。对话还深入探讨了化解悲痛、以果断行动克服犹豫、通过自律和为他人服务获得充实感，以及在人生的各种对立与矛盾中保持平衡。 “极限所有权”（Extreme Ownership）要求彻底摒弃一切借口，对失败承担绝对责任；承认过错虽有损自尊，但唯有认识到问题由自身造成，才能真正掌控并改变自己的命运。 (16:32) 自信需要通过循序渐进的暴露训练和积累小胜来逐步建立，过早面对超出能力的混乱局面只会导致决策瘫痪并挫伤信心。 (19:34) “冒充者综合征”（Imposter Syndrome）实质上是谦逊与虚心受教的积极体现，主动向团队坦承自身经验不足并寻求建议能迅速化解这种内心恐惧。 (24:58) 卓越领导者的核心职责在于“抽离”（Detachment）情绪与自我意识以审视全局，并将具体规划权下放给下属，从而换取更强的团队认同与执行力。 (26:40) 应对重大抉择时的迟疑与瘫痪，应当采取迭代决策法并建立“默认主动行动”（Default Aggressive）的心态，通过迈出可逆的小步来打破停滞局面。 (52:58)

Former U.S. Navy SEAL officer Jocko Willink argues that operational effectiveness, personal resilience, and long-term autonomy require embracing absolute accountability, detaching from emotional impulses, and substituting passive hesitation with disciplined, iterative action. Extreme Ownership and Humility Over Ego (16:32) Willink defines "Extreme Ownership" as the systematic refusal to blame external factors—such as colleagues, superiors, personal relationships, or adverse conditions—when plans fail. Although confronting self-inflicted mistakes wounds the ego, Willink contends that acknowledging fault is uniquely empowering: problems that are internally caused can be internally resolved. When individuals use excuses to soften immediate discomfort, they protect their ego in the short term but stall personal accountability until forced into a painful confrontation with reality. Within this framework, Willink reframes imposter syndrome as a constructive indicator of humility and an open mind rather than a defect. Leaders and employees who openly acknowledge their inexperience and solicit feedback disarm self-doubt and prevent the operational failures caused by overconfidence. Conversely, individuals who demand personal recognition or prioritize self-promotion alienate their peers, reveal insecurity, and ultimately compromise the broader mission. Decentralized Command and Emotional Detachment (26:40) Dispelling the assumption that elite military leadership relies on authoritarian control or yelling, Willink notes that vocal outbursts reflect dozens of prior management failures. Instead, he advocates having subordinate leaders design operational plans. Subordinates commit more deeply to executing their own strategies—even when an idea represents an 80% solution compared to a leader's hypothetical 95% concept—while delegating planning frees senior leaders from staring "down and in" so they can look "up and out" at broader developments and intelligence. Central to this methodology is emotional detachment: deliberately stepping back from chaos, ego, and immediate friction to view the operational picture neutrally. By removing themselves from the immediate emotional fray, leaders preserve situational awareness and can make objective tactical adjustments without becoming paralyzed by pressure. Iterative Decision-Making and Default Aggressive Momentum (52:58) Willink observes that human instinct often leans toward hesitation, paralysis, and waiting for complete certainty. In high-pressure operational environments and everyday life alike, protracted inaction is frequently far more damaging than making an imperfect, reversible choice. To overcome decision paralysis, Willink proposes an iterative decision-making process: taking small, progressive steps—such as launching an exploratory pilot program or acquiring new credentials before quitting a job—to test assumptions without incurring catastrophic exposure. Leaders must actively condition themselves and their teams toward a "default aggressive" mindset, where taking action serves as the baseline response to emerging friction. Willink estimates that proactive movement represents the superior course roughly 70% of the time, provided that leaders maintain the tactical judgment to recognize the remaining 30% where holding back or exercising patience is required. The Discipline Paradox and Avoiding Extremes (73:03) Under the premise that "discipline equals freedom," Willink asserts that daily self-regulation in physical conditioning, finances, and time management prevents long-term subjugation to preventable illness, debt, and workplace entrapment. True confidence is not forged through abrupt leaps, but through progressive exposure and incremental wins. Furthermore, Willink emphasizes that enduring voluntary struggle—whether through Brazilian Jiu-Jitsu, rigorous physical exertion, or navigating corporate crises—builds resilience and creates durable social bonds through shared hardship. Willink cautions that any human attribute—such as aggression, competitiveness, stoicism, or even generosity—becomes destructive when taken to an extreme. Instead of adopting rigid positions, individuals must continually recalibrate based on feedback, integrating emotions into a balanced logical calculus without allowing grief, nostalgia, or trauma to dictate present behavior. Willink acknowledges that intense operational commitments, such as military deployments, inevitably create periods of severe work-life imbalance that require substantial sacrifices from family and partners. The ongoing challenge for individuals transitioning out of high-stakes environments remains honoring past sacrifices and emotional losses—living by the principle to "remember, don't dwell"—without becoming trapped in nostalgia or allowing past peak experiences to inhibit present purpose.

前美国海军海豹突击队军官 Jocko Willink 认为，无论在军事、企业还是个人生活中，真正的掌控力始于彻底摒弃借口的“绝对所有权”（Extreme Ownership），并通过情绪抽离、以小步快跑打破犹豫停滞，以及通过严苛自律换取长期行动自由与心理韧性。 绝对所有权：消除借口与直面现实 (16:32) Willink 将“绝对所有权”定义为在遭遇挫败或任务失利时，坚决拒绝归咎于上级、下属、伴侣或客观环境。他指出，借口就像在酒吧里不断劝酒的不良熟人，短期内虽能保护个体的自尊心（ego）免受痛苦，但长此以往会彻底摧毁个人责任感与改善生活的可能。承认财务、健康或人际关系中的问题完全由自身造成确实令人痛苦，甚至会导致自尊心本能地以撒谎来逃避现实。 然而，这种直面低谷的痛楚具有决定性的解放意义。Willink 强调，一旦个体不再推卸责任并承认问题是自我造成的，就会同时意识到纠正困境的控制权完全握在自己手中。在海豹突击队选拔（BUD/S）中，80%至90%的淘汰者属于主动放弃，却往往将其粉饰为腿部受伤等外部原因；唯有彻底戳破借口、承担全部责任，才能真正掌握自己的命运。 迭代决策：克服犹豫与默认主动 (52:58) 面对重大的人生或职场抉择时，许多人因无法获得100%的确定性而陷入分析瘫痪。Willink 主张采用“迭代决策流程”（Iterative Decision-Making Process），通过低风险的渐进步骤代替冲动、不可逆的情绪化跃进。例如，对当前工作不满的员工无需立即辞职，而是可以先更新简历、分析技能缺口并在 LinkedIn 上拓展人脉；在企业管理中，决策者可以通过投放10万美元的试点测试来验证原本耗资100万美元的方案。大多数现实决策（包括房产购置在内）的试错成本都是可控且可逆的，等待完美信息往往比犯下可修正的错误代价更高。 为了对抗人类在压力下倾向于停滞与观望的本能，Willink 提倡建立“默认主动”（Default Aggressive）的思维设定。他评估认为，在约70%的场景下，率先采取行动并根据新视野动态调整路线，其效果远优于停滞不前；而在其余30%的情况下，则需要领导者保持克制，审慎评估是否应当延缓行动。 情绪抽离与去中心化指挥架构 (26:40) 在团队管理中，Willink 认为优秀领导者的核心能力在于实现“情绪抽离”（Detachment）。陷入局部混乱与情绪漩涡的管理者往往无法看清问题本质，而向团队大吼大叫则表明此前已经犯下了数十个管理失误。真正成熟的领导应当退后一步保持冷静观察，使团队在高度共识下仅凭默契与简短信号即可自主运转。 基于这种理念，Willink 在实战中推行下属主导方案制定的去中心化流程。当方案由下属自主设计时，执行团队会产生极高的归属感与执行承诺；同时，这能将高级指挥官从细枝末节的案头规划（“低头向内看”）中解放出来，专注于外部威胁与战略协同（“抬头向外看”）。即便下属提出的方案只有80%的最优度，其所激发的执行主动性也足以抵消与理论最优方案之间的差距。 渐进暴露法与重塑冒充者综合征 (19:34) 个人自信心的确立不是一蹴而就的飞跃，而是基于系统性的渐进暴露（Progressive Exposure）。针对缺乏自信的年轻骨干，主管不应直接将其推入高压混乱的局面试错，而应先指派确定能够胜任的有限任务，在连续取得两三次小胜后再逐步扩大其决策范围；对于过度自负、不愿倾听的个体，则需要通过超出其能力的复杂挑战使其直面失控，从而达到去伪存真、恢复谦逊的目的。 与外界将“冒充者综合征”（Imposter Syndrome）视为心理缺陷的观点相反，Willink 认为这种自我怀疑恰恰是谦逊与虚心求教的积极指标。相比第一天就声称能掌控一切的傲慢者，心怀敬畏的人对团队更加安全。化解这种焦虑的实操方法是在接手新任务时坦率沟通，公开说明自身缺乏相关经验并邀请团队监督纠错，从而彻底卸下维持虚假形象的心理包袱。 自律铸就自由与警惕极端化陷阱 (73:03) Willink 阐述了其核心格言“自律等于自由”（Discipline Equals Freedom）的逻辑闭环：缺乏饮食与锻炼的自律会导致身体沦为疾病的奴隶，缺乏财务自律会沦为金钱与债务的奴隶，缺乏日程规划的自律则会失去支配时间的自由。日常维持固定的作息与体能训练并非为了盲目模仿极端日程，而是为了建立掌控生活的基准动量。 但与此同时，Willink 警告必须警惕将任何特质推向极端。无论是极度的慷慨（容易导致被利用和剥削）、极端的竞争心（破坏人际关系与健康），还是绝对的无情（演变为反社会人格），走向极致都会产生毒性。真正的领导力与心智成熟在于依据外部反馈动态维系平衡；而通过定期的集体磨难（如巴西柔术训练）建立互信，以及在特殊高压阶段践行团队互补（如在家庭责任中落实战术上的“掩护与移动”），是抵抗精神内耗与长期维系系统稳定的关键。 Willink 的行动哲学建立在其特种作战实战与企业咨询经验之上，为摆脱拖延、建立问责制与化解职场自负提供了高度结构化的应对工具。然而，该框架将个人境遇高度归因于主观掌控力与个人选择，对于面临结构性外部障碍或资源严重匮乏的个体而言，其普适性可能存在边界；此外，在和平时期的组织管理中，如何精确界定“默认主动”与“战术克制”的适用时机，仍高度依赖决策者的情境判断力。

## Background 本期节目由 YouTube 频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2024 年 4 月 18 日发布。访谈嘉宾为退役美国海豹突击队军官、畅销书作家兼 Echelon Front 联合创始人乔科·威廉克（Jocko Willink），视频页面介绍本期主题聚焦于如何运用军旅心智技巧克服恐惧、焦虑与自我怀疑，建立强大的心理韧性与领导力。 ## TL;DR 乔科·威廉克结合长达二十年的海豹突击队服役经历与企业咨询经验，系统阐述了“极端所有权”（Extreme Ownership）与“自律等于自由”（Discipline Equals Freedom）的核心哲学。他深入剖析了如何通过逐步暴露与立即行动打破决策瘫痪、化解冒名顶替综合征，并强调卓越领导者必须学会情绪抽离（Detach）、放权让下属制定战术计划。此外，威廉克坦诚分享了直面战争残酷、代谢战友牺牲带来的终生创伤的心路历程，探讨了军属在后方的无私奉献以及通过共同受难与巴西柔术重塑生命意义的路径，呼吁人们放弃借口、拥抱艰辛并以行动夺回生活的主导权。 ## Atmosphere & style 全片基调沉稳肃穆、直击人心且充满毫不妥协的硬朗力量感。威廉克以其标志性的低沉嗓音和极度克制的语言，将特战前线的生死淬炼转化为通俗而有力的生活与管理法则；主持人史蒂芬的提问细致温和，推动对话在冷峻理性的战术复盘与深刻的人性沉思之间自如切换。从喝令受众抛弃垃圾食品的当头棒喝，到回忆阵亡兄弟与坚守后方的妻子时眼含热泪的隐忍哽咽，整场访谈情绪张弛有度，既有令人热血沸腾的催化推动力，又散发着直抵灵魂的崇高与敬畏。 ## Bulletin - [12:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=743s) 乔科·威廉克指出淘汰率高达80%至90%的海豹突击队选拔中，极少人是因体能硬指标未达标被刷，绝大多数都是在心智崩溃后主动找借口退出；破局的关键在于建立“绝对所有权”（Extreme Ownership），停止一切外部甩锅。 - [56:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3386s) 面对不确定性与决策瘫痪，约70%的场景下果断采取主动行动的收益远大于消极观望；领导者应推行小步迭代与低成本试水，而非徒劳追求100%确定性。 - [01:23:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4989s) 卓越领导力并非专制咆哮与独断专行，若领导者必须靠吼叫才能推进事务，说明前期已犯下了数十个沟通或战术错误；赋能团队的核心在于向后退一步实现精神解耦（Detach），并让下属自主制定作战方案。 - [01:13:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4393s) “自律等于自由”不仅体现在健康与财务上，当代人摆脱空虚与迷茫的核心路径是与伙伴“共同受难”（如练习巴西柔术或团队攻坚），通过承担艰难挑战获得真正的生命充实感。 ## Key takeaways - [15:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=936s) 绝对所有权（Extreme Ownership）是打破自怜与借口的基石：唯有承认生活中的所有困境皆由自己造成，你才真正具备解决这些问题的能力与掌控权。 - [20:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1204s) 建立自信切忌拔苗助长，应采用阶梯式的“暴露疗法”，通过反复训练与小规模确定胜任的任务积累信心；对过度自负者则应让其直面复杂混乱的现实以找回谦逊。 - [24:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1466s) 冒名顶替综合征本质上是谦逊的体现；化解其焦虑的终极方式是在团队面前公开坦承自己的认知局限，用绝对坦诚换取群策群力与信任。 - [29:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1754s) 权力下放的“方案百分比”法则：下属执行自己制定的80分方案，其投入度与执行力远胜于被动执行领导者强加的95分方案；领导者应抽离细节以纵览全局。 - [41:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2495s) 面对失去至亲或创伤，“铭记而非沉溺”（Remember, don't dwell）：接受悲伤情绪如潮水般反复波动的生理与心理必然性，但绝不能让情绪主宰整个人生的决策方程。 - [50:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3037s) 迷失森林时的破局逻辑是“迈开腿走起来”：原地驻足只会坐以待毙，通过最小步幅的位移与试错打破认知瘫痪，走错方向及时调整即可。 - [54:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3248s) 迭代式决策与低成本试水：大部分商业与生活决定都具备高度可逆性，等待和停滞的时间成本往往远高于做错一个可控决定的摩擦成本。 - [01:03:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3782s) “索取功劳悖论”与自私的代价：在团队中越是急于争抢赞誉与晋升，声望贬值越快；真正的领袖地位来自默默利他与对任务的极致投入，领导力是被动赋予而非主动争夺的。 - [01:13:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4393s) 自律等于自由：缺乏自律锻炼会沦为疾病的奴隶，缺乏理财自律会沦为财务的奴隶；通过建立不可妥协的日常基准线才能赢得真正的主动权。 - [01:25:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=5124s) 任何性格特质走向极端都会沦为灾难（如毫无同理的绝对冷酷或毫无底线的退缩懦弱）；成熟的人格在于对外界反馈保持敏感，在动态中维持微调与平衡。 - [01:42:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=6132s) 军旅战术法则“掩护与移动”（Cover and Move）在家庭中同样适用：在个人全力在外拼搏与备战的背后，离不开后方家属默默包揽一切日常琐事的隐形坚守与巨大牺牲。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=0s) 核心法则：极端所有权、行动力与情绪抽离 在回顾自己长达二十年的美国海豹突击队（Navy SEALs）生涯时，乔科·威廉克（Jocko Willink）总结出一套不仅适用于战场，同样能深度赋能商业竞争与个人生活的核心准则：纪律、驱动力、高压决策、领导力、战略与战术。作为退役海豹军官，他长期致力于帮助人们掌握自律并掌控人生。他一针见血地指出：“你的借口会毁了你（Your excuses will destroy you）。”面对困境，每个人的默认思维模式必须是主动承担所有责任——唯有承认“问题因我而起”，你才真正具备“解决这些问题”的自主能力。 迈出改变的第一步往往极其痛苦。哪怕是去健身房锻炼这样简单的事，对于身材完全走样的人来说，初期的艰难就足以让人产生彻底放弃的念头；因此，你必须在脑海中清晰构建出这一坚持最终将通往何方的愿景。针对人们习惯犹豫不决的天性，威廉克强调必须立刻直面问题：“如果你在森林里迷失了方向，不知道该往哪里走，那就迈开腿往前走。最坏的结果无非是发现自己走错了方向，这时你转过身换个方向继续走就是了；但待在原地什么都不做，就只能坐以待毙、活活饿死。” 优秀的领导者还必须学会抽离自身情绪并保持绝对克制。威廉克直言：“如果我必须靠对你大吼大叫才能把事情交代清楚，说明在此之前我已经犯了大概47个别的错误。我的终极目标是，自己根本不需要多说一句话，你就已经清楚该做什么。”当被问及海豹突击队服役期间最艰难的一天时，他坦承那段经历是他整个人生的最低谷。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 突破困境与危机应对的行为逻辑 accDescr: 展示乔科·威廉克在面对阻碍时提倡的主动行动与情绪管理逻辑 subgraph Mindset["第一阶段：心智重塑"] A["遭遇困境与阻碍"] --> B["建立绝对所有权<br/>（放弃借口，归因于己）"] B --> C["构建未来清晰愿景"] end subgraph Action["第二阶段：果断行动"] C --> D["拒绝停滞与迟疑"] D --> E["立即采取行动<br/>（如迷失森林便果断开步）"] E --> F{"方向是否正确？"} F -- "错误" --> G["敏捷修正航向"] G --> E F -- "正确" --> H["持续推进解决问题"] end subgraph Leadership["第三阶段：领导与心性"] H --> I["抽离主观情绪"] I --> J["达成无声默契的团队执行"] end ``` ### [01:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=95s) 播客近况与童年特战梦想的萌芽 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）在节目开场分享了频道的最新数据：长期收听节目的听众中，未订阅用户的比例已从过去的 69% 降至 63%，而频道的阶段性目标是降至 50%，以此呼吁广大听众随手点击订阅。随后，话题转向了威廉克的成长经历。通常外界存在一种固有刻板印象，认为能成为海豹突击队员的人，早年多半经历过某些重大创伤，并以此转化为超乎常人的抗挫力。然而，威廉克的童年档案中却几乎找不到这种戏剧性的悲剧痕迹。 威廉克回忆道，自己很难精确指出某一个决定性的顿悟瞬间。他能记起的最早渊源，就是自己打小就强烈渴望成为一名士兵或特种突击队员（Commando）。小时候，他热衷于收集世界各地的各种历史军事单位的塑料小兵模型，其中一套英国突击队（British commandos）的模型深深吸引了他——那些微缩兵人手持机枪，配备着皮划艇（kayaks）和小型充气橡皮艇。小威廉克当时就暗下决心：“这就是我想做的事，我渴望过这种生活。”到了大约 12、13 岁时，他猛然意识到这不仅是小孩子的过家家幻想，而是一份真实存在的职业，于是便开始在美军各军种中寻找与英国突击队最契合的部队，最终将目光锁定在海军及其海豹突击队上。 ### [03:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=230s) 什么是海豹突击队？19岁青涩新兵的突破 面对“究竟什么是海豹突击队”的基础提问，威廉克以英国的特种空勤团（SAS）和特别舟艇部队（SBS）作为直观参照，解释海豹突击队是隶属于美国海军的特种作战核心力量。“SEAL”本质上是一个复合缩写，代表海（Sea）、空（Air）与陆（Land）： - **海（Sea）**：执行深潜、水下渗透与两栖突击； - **空（Air）**：掌握高空伞降跳伞以及绳降突入； - **陆（Land）**：实施全面的地面特种作战。 将海陆空战术维度熔于一炉，便是海豹突击队的日常职责。许多人误以为加入特种部队必须先在常规部队服役十年、二十年积累资历，然后某天电脑屏幕上才会弹出一封神秘的选拔邀请函；但威廉克在 18 岁高中毕业后便直接签署了附带海豹突击队选拔保障合同的海军兵役，经历了整整一年的严苛训练考核，年仅 19 岁就正式通过选拔成为一名合格的海豹队员。 通常军界总在争论是否更成熟、更有经验的士兵才适合特种作战，但威廉克十分庆幸自己几乎是在海豹部队里“被抚养成人的”，将青年时代全部倾注于钻研这项挚爱的事业。数据充分印证了这种年轻入选的罕见性： - 基础水下爆破/海豹突击队训练（BUD/S）的综合通过率通常仅有约 **20%**； - 20岁以下的年轻学员通过率更是直接跌至极罕见的 **5%** 左右。 ### [06:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=364s) 地狱周残酷筛选机制与“耸肩前行”的意志磨砺 海豹突击队基础训练的核心考核目标极其纯粹：“面对无论何种极端逆境，你是否仍能咬牙坚持下去？”其中最具标志性、恶名昭彰的环节正是“地狱周”（Hell Week）。这项训练最初设立于二战期间，美军当时为了应对太平洋等战场的迫切需求，急需在极度压缩的训练周期内培养出能够奔赴海外执行渗透破坏任务的水下蛙人（Frogmen）。教官团队将二战战场上的残酷实战压力高度浓缩为大约 5 天半的极限考验：整整五天五夜几乎没有任何睡眠时间，伴随高强度的肉体折磨、极端心理高压与持续的肉体痛苦。在这场肉体与精神的双重风暴中，被淘汰退训的学员中，有高达 **80%** 的人都是在这短短一周内主动敲钟放弃的。 针对《坚毅》（*Grit*）等心理学著作常探讨的抗挫特质，威廉克指出，外界常误以为体格健硕、大块肌肉或心肺耐力极强的人更容易过关，但事实并非如此。决定能否存活下来的，是一种更为深层的“内在驱动力”——要么生来具备，要么根本没有；没有这种心力的人注定会被折断。更重要的是，选拔机制的设计极其严密，专门负责扒开你掩盖的一切短板： - 哪怕你是顶尖的游泳健将、上肢力量惊人，只要长跑耐力偏弱，教官一眼就能测出； - 反之，哪怕你跑得飞快，只要水性不佳，弱点也会暴露无遗； - 厌恶寒冷、顶不住把橡皮艇长时间顶在头顶的压迫、扛不住圆木的重压，甚至情绪管理较差、容易发脾气，教官都会立刻精准锁定这些死穴并疯狂施压，直到把你逼到蜕变或者逼你敲钟退出。 对于年轻时的威廉克而言，他根本不曾动过半点放弃的念头，教官让回水里就回水里、让扛圆木就扛圆木，毫无怨言。他认为基础海豹训练唯一能真正教会人的，就是“耸耸肩膀，然后继续向前冲（shrug your shoulders and go forward）”。加利福尼亚海岸的海水绝非人们想象中那般温暖宜人，水温常年维持在华氏 55 度（约摄氏 12.8 度）的刺骨低温中。在被称为“海浪酷刑”（Surf Torture）的经典惩罚中，学员们被命令肩并肩臂挽着臂，踏入冰冷的大海中坐下，任由刺骨的海浪一遍遍冲刷拍打。教官把他们拉上海滩后，医官会逐一检查是否有人出现体温过低症（Hypothermia）；只要还没冻到失温休克的临界点，教官冰冷的口令便会再次响起：“全员滚回水里去。” ### [09:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=588s) 熬过“糟糕透顶”的破事：直面痛苦的心理机制 在面对高压与折磨时，受训者必须在心理上完成一次关键的认知重塑：认清现实已经无法逃避，唯一的出路就是向前冲。乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink）指出，那种“我绝不放弃，尽管放马过来（Bring it on）”的心态，本质上就是学会咬紧牙关去硬抗那些“糟糕透顶的破事”（things that suck）。他特意将这种状态与真正的“逆境”（adversity）区分开来：逆境通常意味着你正在遭遇复杂的重大挑战或危机，而海豹突击队训练中经历的大量痛苦，其实比逆境还要低一个层级——它们单纯就是纯粹的折磨与痛苦，没有任何捷径，唯一的解决办法就是硬生生推过去。 ### [10:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=625s) 这种疯狂的驱动力能被教会吗？生存意志与战俘的启示 当主持人提问这种钢铁般的意志是与生俱来的天赋，还是任何普通人都能通过后天训练变成“乔科”时，乔科坦诚地给出了否定的回答。他认为这种极端驱动力是无法从零教出来的；但如果一个人内心深处哪怕只有一颗火苗的种子，这种特质就可以被培养和壮大。 为了说明这种根植于内心的内在意志，乔科举了战俘（POW）和历史上“巴丹死亡行军”（Bataan Death March）的例子：在那种非人的极端绝境下，能够活下来的人都拥有一种“我绝对不要死，我必须继续往前走”的决死意志；而那些死在路上的人，往往是因为在极端的折磨下丧失了求生意志，选择了“干脆躺下等死”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 内在生存意志的分化机制 accDescr: 展示在极端绝境下，拥有内在求生意志与缺乏求生意志导致的不同结局。 subgraph 绝境考验 A["极端生存绝境<br/>（如战俘营/残酷行军）"] end subgraph 心理抉择 B["内在求生意志<br/>（拒不认输/永不放弃）"] C["意志崩溃与消磨<br/>（放弃挣扎/精神瓦解）"] end subgraph 最终命运 D["熬过折磨 绝境生还"] E["放弃抵抗 走向死亡"] end A --> B A --> C B --> D C --> E ``` 乔科分享了曾做客他播客的一位老兵的故事： - 这名美军在越战期间于南越被击落并被俘虏，随后被迫在看押下徒步跋涉穿越丛林长达七个月。 - 在被关押期间，他被锁在丛林中仅有两英尺（约60厘米）高的狭小竹笼里，双腿戴着脚镣。 - 晚上他根本无法入睡，因为笼子外的老鼠在不停地啃食他腿上的溃烂伤口。 - 与他关押在一起的其他人如果缺乏这种“一定要熬过去”的内在意志，最终全都在绝望中死去。乔科强调，缺乏这种核心内驱力的人，根本无法在真正的深渊中存活。 ### [12:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=743s) “你的动力（Why）”究竟有多重要？真正想做与寻找借口 针对市面上各类成功学书籍强调的“找到你的为什么”（Start with Why），乔科提出了务实甚至去崇高化的见解。无论是浅层的世俗动机（如“被前女友甩了，我要做出一番成绩打她的脸”），还是深层的崇高誓言（如“挚爱去世，我向她临终许诺一定要完成目标”），只要能支撑人撑过折磨，它们都是有效的动力。 然而，乔科以自己一位越战老兵朋友的经历说明，动力有时甚至不需要任何宏大意义：这位朋友当年去报名海豹突击队训练时，压根不知道海豹突击队是什么，误以为自己只是报名去当水下修船的工程潜水员；当教官告诉他这是魔鬼海豹训练时，他只是随遇而安地表示“既然你们要求我做这个，那就做吧”，随后硬是咬牙通过了全部的地狱考验。 乔科指出，事情最终都会归结为一个最纯粹、最直白的问题：“你到底想不想做这件事？” - **真正想做的人**：没有任何外力能够阻挡他们，所有困难都会被踏碎。 - **并非真心想做的人**：路上的任何一点障碍都会成为半途而废的借口和推辞。 - **训练营淘汰的真实统计**：在海豹突击队训练中，淘汰率高达80%至90%，绝大多数人离开的原因只有一个——他们主动放弃（Quit）。只有极少数人是因为严重伤病或考核未达标（如跑步、游泳或技术动作不达标）被强制淘汰。 - **自我欺骗的借口**：那些中途退出的人很少会坦白承认“太苦了我撑不下去”，他们往往会在脑海中为自己合理化找借口，例如“是因为我的腿受了伤，我知道带伤跑步很难达标，所以我才离开”，以此来掩盖自己内心放弃的真相。 ### [15:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=936s) 借口是致命的毒药：绝对坦然的“极端所有权”（Extreme Ownership） 当谈到借口的本质时，乔科一针见血地警告：“如果你任由借口滋生，它们会彻底摧毁你，夺走你梦寐以求的一切。”借口绝不是朋友，它就像在酒吧里不断劝你继续喝酒的狐朋狗友，当下虽然能让你感觉舒服、逃避未能执行任务的自责，但在长远来看却具有毁灭性。 借口和甩锅正是“极端所有权”（Extreme Ownership）的反义词： - **极端所有权的核心**：当事情搞砸、失败或没有达成目标时，绝不归咎于老板、伴侣、父母，甚至不怪天气，而是毫无保留地承认“这是我的责任，全是我造成的，我要亲自解决它”。 - **直面现实的刺痛**：承认生活、工作、财务、人际关系和身体健康中的所有问题都是由自己一手造成的，这会对人的自尊心带来极其剧烈的刺痛。 - **自我的防御机制**：很多时候，人的脆弱自尊为了不受伤害，会本能地撒谎、寻找借口并拒绝承认现实，而其代价就是原地踏步，生活永远不会发生任何改变。 ### [17:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1055s) 触底反弹与掌控命运：责任背后的赋权感 面对那些深陷慢性借口与甩锅怪圈的人，乔科分析了心理防御机制与自尊的微妙关系。自尊心极度低下的人往往最爱寻找借口，因为承担个人责任在短期内会进一步打击他们本就脆弱的自我评价，因此他们选择指责整个世界来实施心理自卫。 要打破这种恶性循环，往往需要经历一次“触底”（Rock Bottom）——无论是在成瘾、酗酒、身体失控、还是财务与职场的彻底崩溃中，当所有借口再也无法粉饰太平时，人们才不得不正视“这一切都是我自己造成的”这一残酷真相。 乔科总结道，尽管直面这一现实痛苦至极，但它同时具有令人难以置信的巨大赋权力量（Empowering）： - 只要你承认“所有这些烂摊子都是我造成的”，就意味着**“我也拥有彻底解决这些问题的能力”**。 - 极端所有权表面上带来痛苦，实质上却是一种终极的解放——它将命运与未来的控制权重新交回到了你自己手中。而这正是打破自怜、开始重建真正自信的起点。 ### [20:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1204s) 建立自信与纠正自负：循序渐进的暴露疗法 假设你是一名初出茅庐的海豹突击队年轻军官，心中难免打鼓，觉得自己能走到这一步纯属走运，甚至只是勉强通过了严苛的选拔训练。突然间，指挥官对你说：“听着，现在由你来指挥这个班。”你内心毫无底气。当行动中必须立刻做决定的那一刻到来时，你犹豫不决、环顾四周，手下的队员们直勾勾地盯着你，眼神仿佛在质问：“长官，你到底下不下指令？”这时队伍里有人实在看不下去，直接越俎代庖喊道：“我来处理！所有人撤进这栋楼！”那一瞬间，年轻军官本就微弱的自信心彻底跌入谷底。针对这种信心崩塌的状况，Jocko 指出，优秀的管理者绝不能让下属一步登天，而是要把他们放进“完全有能力掌控的局势中”，赋予一项既不是毫无难度的玩笑、又确保其能够胜任的任务。 在实战演练中，Jocko 会给这样的年轻军官布置明确而低风险的任务。例如，在大部队强攻建筑物并建立外围警戒时，只要求他带着班守在侧翼的护堤（berm）后方警戒北面。没有复杂的决策压力，任务清晰可控。当他顺利完成并撤回，自信心便悄然增加了一分。经过两三次成功执行后，Jocko 会适时给予肯定，随即将任务难度递进：从警戒单方向扩展到负责北面与西面两条防线，麾下指挥两个班。这种“逐步暴露、稳扎稳打”的过程在商业和个人成长中完全相通。对于个人克服恐惧，Jocko 总结了八字核心：“训练、学习、工作、实践”（Train, study, work, practice）。他以斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）克服公众演讲恐惧为例：没有人会在第一天就直接登上千人讲台，而是从面对极少数听众开始，逐步扩大规模。这与乔丹·彼得森（Jordan Peterson）常提到的“暴露疗法”（Exposure Therapy）完全契合——给予受试者刚好能承受的刺激，过载会导致恐惧倒退，适度则能不断积累胜任感。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 建立自信与纠正自负的双轨干预机制 accDescr: 展示针对信心不足和过度自负两种极端心态时，管理者所采取的截然不同的任务分配与干预流程。 subgraph Confidence["缺乏信心：循序渐进"] A["小规模任务<br/>（如：警戒单一侧翼）"] --> B["顺利执行<br/>（获得即时正向反馈）"] B --> C["适度增加复杂性<br/>（如：指挥多班、兼顾多方向）"] C --> D["建立稳固的胜任感与决策自信"] end subgraph Ego["过度自负：适度受挫"] E["自命不凡、听不进建议"] --> F["授予超出掌控的宏大任务<br/>（如：独立负责突击全队）"] F --> G["陷入混乱失控局面"] G --> H["资深军士长介入收拾残局<br/>（产生敬畏，回归谦逊）"] end ``` 然而，面对过度自信、自命不凡的队员，Jocko 的应对手段则截然相反。当某些人带着庞大的自我（ego）大摇大摆走进来，傲慢地宣称自己天生就该当领头人、对他人意见充耳不闻时，Jocko 会顺水推舟：“既然你这么厉害，今晚的整支突击队全交由你指挥。”一旦置身于真正的混乱、噪音与枪林弹雨之中，这种人往往很快就会失去对战局的掌控。当局面彻底陷入混乱时，Jocko 便会平稳切入通讯频道：“我已经派军士长（Chief）下去帮你收拾残局了。”对方只能顺从地回复“明白，谢谢”，一身虚浮的傲气瞬间被现实打碎，重新学会谦卑。 - **自信建立公式**：反复进行“训练、学习、工作、实践”，通过小步快跑的阶梯式挑战积累确定的正向反馈。 - **暴露疗法核心**：切忌拔苗助长；超出能力的暴露会导致创伤与退缩，适度可控的挑战才能催生真正的心智韧性。 - **挫败傲慢的策略**：对抗膨胀自我的最好方式不是言语说教，而是让其承担全部责任并直面现实的复杂性，迫使其经历“被谦卑”（get humbled）的过程。 --- ### [24:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1466s) 冒名顶替综合征：谦逊的礼物与破解之道 当谈话转向现代职场普遍存在的“冒名顶替综合征”（Imposter Syndrome）——即人们稍微游离出舒适区、涉足未知深水区时，总觉得自己是个骗子、迟早会被人揭穿甚至导致自信心滑坡时，Jocko 给出了出人意料的独到见解：冒名顶替综合征不仅客观存在，而且“并非坏事”。在 Jocko 看来，相比于一个新员工昂首阔步、拍着胸脯保证“选我就对了，我分分钟接管这个部门”的盲目自负，一个带着轻微不安全感、主动承认“我以前没做过这种业务，能否向您请教几个问题”的人反而更值得信任。这种自我怀疑本质上代表着谦卑（humility），说明当事人拥有开放的头脑，愿意倾听他人并对潜在风险保持敬畏。 要想彻底化解冒名顶替综合征带来的焦虑内耗，最有效的武器就是“绝对的坦诚与公开”。Jocko 提供了一套极其实用的现场沟通范式：当你接手一个自己完全没有把握的项目、走进启动会议时，不要试图打肿脸充胖子去伪装权威，而是直接当着全体成员的面把底牌亮开： > “各位，非常感谢大家来参加这次项目的启动会。先跟所有人说明一下，这是我第一次主导这种类型的项目。在座的很多同事经验都比我丰富，我后续一定会向大家请教诸多问题。如果在执行过程中，大家看到我偏离了轨道或者犯了任何错误，请务必当面指出来，因为我唯一的目的，就是带领大家打赢这场仗。” 只要把事实摆上台面，挑明自己并非全知全能，所有伪装的压力和被拆穿的恐惧就会瞬间瓦解。团队成员不仅不会轻视你，反而会因为你的开诚布公与把团队利益置于个人面子之上的态度建立起信任，冒名顶替综合征也就随之烟消云散。 --- ### [26:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1600s) 卓越领导力的核心：让下属制定计划与超然抽离 针对大众普遍认为特种部队领导者总是居高临下发号施令的刻板印象，Jocko 直截了当地反驳：“这是完全错误的假设。”在海豹突击队中，真正顶尖的领导者绝非独断专行地强加自己的意志，而是时刻保持开放心态，主动征求团队在战术行动中的方案与反馈。Jocko 在担任指挥官期间的标准作战程序（SOP），就是要求下属各级骨干全权负责战术方案的拟定，而非由他越俎代庖。他从三个战略维度深刻剖析了为什么必须由下属来制定计划： 1. **确立行动所有权（Ownership）**：如果是上级把方案强加给基层，下属只是机械执行，缺乏心理认同；只有当下级与其小队共同讨论、推敲并拿出一套属于他们自己的方案时，全员才会打心底理解、拥抱并对结果负百分之百的责任。 2. **避免陷入局部盲区（Look Outside In）**：制定计划的人必然深陷于具体细节之中，难以客观审视全局。作为最高指挥官，唯有置身于计划之外，才能以客观的第三视角审视整个布局，敏锐地挑出其中的致命漏洞并向下属提出关键质询。 3. **仰望远方而非低头内耗（Look Up and Out vs. Down and In）**：如果主管把全部精力耗费在低头对着地图微观规划上，就彻底丧失了宏观态势感知能力。谁来监控友邻部队在战场上的实时动态？谁去统筹后续的连环行动？谁来梳理前线不断传回的敌情情报？ 斯蒂芬借此比喻，很多商业管理者往往深陷于“战壕”之中，就像看一幅画时离画布太近，反而无法看清整幅画作的全貌。Jocko 对此高度赞同并给出了领导力的终极定义：**领导者的本职工作，就是向后退一步，主动与眼前的混乱局面实现精神解耦（detach），从而洞悉事态发展的完整图景。** ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 领导者视角与下属视角的战术分工 accDescr: 对比低头专注细节的执行视角与退后一步审视全局的指挥官视角。 subgraph Subordinates["下属战术执行层：低头向内（Down and In）"] S1["制定具体战术细节"] S2["建立全员归属感（Ownership）"] S3["专注攻坚与局部执行"] end subgraph Commander["指挥官领导层：抬头向外（Up and Out）"] C1["战术抽离（Detach）"] C2["审查方案漏洞与全局风险"] C3["协同友邻、搜集情报、规划后续"] end Subordinates -->|"汇报方案"| Commander Commander -->|"质询与资源支持"| Subordinates ``` - **权力下放原则**：让最贴近前线的人制定计划，领导负责把关挑刺，这是保障决策质量和执行热情的双赢机制。 - **思维维度对比**：执行者必须“低头向内”（Look down and in）扣死细节，领导者必须“抬头向外”（Look up and out）把握大局。 - **超然抽离（Detachment）**：身处旋涡之中的领导者一旦被情绪或琐事吞没，便丧失了指挥价值；后撤一步拉开心理与物理距离，是做出明智决策的前提。 ### [29:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1754s) 学会抽离与极致所有权：通过授权培养团队 领导者如果身陷问题之中，就极难看清解决方案。在混乱、喧嚣与交火之中，最重要的能力就是“抽离”（Detach）——退后一步，摆脱混乱的干扰，抽离个人情绪与虚荣自负（Ego），从而客观评估最佳的执行方案。在海豹突击队服役期间，乔科（Jocko Willink）就致力于将这种抽离能力传授给年轻军官，如今他也将同样的法则带给企业高管。很多人对他的畅销书《极致所有权》（Extreme Ownership）存在误解，以为“极致所有权”意味着领导者必须凡事亲力亲为、大包大揽；恰恰相反，真正的掌控是让下属主动承担所有权，而促成这一点的唯一方式就是把决策权交出去：“史蒂芬，这个项目你想怎么做？” 当把权力下放时，下属拿出的方案往往不会完美。乔科分享了一套极其实用的“方案百分比”赋能法则：如果自己脑海中有一个 95 分的完美方案，而下属提出的是一个 80 分的方案，最明智的做法不是横加干涉，而是照准执行；因为下属执行自己制定的 80 分方案，其投入度与执行力远胜于被动执行别人的 95 分方案。如果方案只有 70 分，领导者可以进行微调点拨，将其提升至 78 分；若方案只有 20 分，糟糕透顶，领导者也不应直接给出答案，而是通过连续抛出三四个关键问题，引导对方意识到漏洞并主动说：“乔科，给我几个小时，我重新调整一下。”这些提问的过程本身就是最扎实的实战训练。如果手下的人无法独立制定方案，那领导者就是彻底的失败者。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 方案成熟度与领导者赋能决策模型 accDescr: 展示当领导者面对下属不同成熟度的方案时所采取的授权与辅导策略 subgraph Evaluation ["评估下属方案质量"] A["下属提交方案"] --> B{"方案可行性评估"} end subgraph Action ["领导者应对策略"] B -- "80% 方案" --> C["全盘采纳并放手执行<br/>（下属拥有完整执行所有权）"] B -- "70% 方案" --> D["提点关键漏洞，微调至 78%<br/>（保持下属自主权与积极性）"] B -- "20% 方案" --> E["连环发问引导反思<br/>（让下属自行回撤并重构方案）"] end subgraph Outcome ["长远团队收益"] C --> F["长远效率投资：培养独立思考与担当能力"] D --> F E --> F end ``` - **长远效率的投资**：指导下属虽然眼前会消耗 10 分钟甚至半小时去解释战术优劣，看似拖慢了从 A 点到 B 点的推进速度，但六个月后，经过磨砺的团队成员做出的方案甚至会比领导者自己还要出色。 - **领导者的职责**：领导者唯有摆脱微观管理的泥潭，才能将视线投向更高更远的外围态势（Look up and out）。 --- ### [31:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1901s) 成功的基石：勤奋、谦逊与承认认知的局限 从一名刚通过严酷选拔的年轻新兵，一路成长为率领海豹突击队核心作战单位的功勋指挥官，史蒂芬好奇支撑乔科走到这一步的核心特质究竟是什么。乔科坦承，自己从小到大在各项天赋上都平平无奇：他从来不是同龄人里跑得最快、力量最强或者智商最高的那个人。他唯一确信的，是自己拥有极高的工作伦理，肯下苦功拼命努力，并且愿意虚心听取别人的意见。 即使在二十二三岁心高气傲、自以为无所不知的年纪，乔科内心深处也始终保留着一丝清醒的谦逊：“其实你什么都不懂”。正是这种谦逊成为了他领导生涯中最重要的护城河。作为指挥官，他从不避讳暴露自己的知识盲区，经常当着团队的面坦白：“现在这种局面，我也没有百分之百的把握，大家觉得应该怎么打？”或者承认：“我的思考已经触及极限了，我需要你们的帮助。”这种不被虚荣心绑架的坦诚，不仅赢得了部下的深度信任，也让整个作战单元的群体智慧得以充分释放。 --- ### [33:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2005s) 战争的残酷真相与对他人创伤的共情 在长达 20 年的军旅生涯中，海豹突击队的秘密任务将乔科带往全球各地的交火前线。面对常人难以企及的极端经历，乔科用平静而沉重的字眼描绘了战争的本质：“那就是战争，充满伤残与死亡。”在伊拉克战场，他们面对的是极其残忍的叛乱分子（Insurgents），目睹了各种反人类的酷刑、毁尸、强暴以及斩首示众——那是纯粹的炼狱与恐怖。 然而，目睹过人间极恶的乔科并未因此产生俯视常人的优越感。相反，当人们惊叹于他经历过的风暴时，他看常人也是怀揣着同样的敬畏。在乔科看来，每个人都在经历外人未知的绝壁与深渊：你不知道偶遇的陌生人经历过怎样的童年阴影，承受过何种家庭虐待，目击过怎样的悲剧，又在人生中背负着怎样的磨难与试炼。即便是一个高一学生在 15 岁时遭遇严重骨折，从此永远告别了热爱的体育运动，这种痛苦对当事人而言同样是天崩地裂的创伤。他坚信绝大多数人都在与各自的人生痛楚搏斗并顽强生存，因此他习惯给予遇见的每一个人以最大程度的善意与包容（Give them the benefit of the doubt）。 --- ### [36:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2177s) 面对人性的至暗与崇高：保护家人与接纳现实 针对心理学上所说的重度创伤（Tort traumas）以及退伍军人高发的创伤后应激障碍（PTSD），乔科分享了他消化这些可怕记忆的心智模型：邪恶在这个世界上是客观且永恒存在的，恶人必定会犯下滔天罪行，这是历史与现实的残酷铁律。在服役期间，他的职责就是拼尽全力去阻止恶行；退役之后，他则努力引导人们远离那些黑暗暴戾的思想。 乔科在战场与家庭之间建立起一道绝对严格的情感防火墙。当他在海外执行高度危险的任务时，妻子对具体战况几乎一无所知；只有当麾下队员负伤或牺牲时，妻子才会前往医院探视或出席葬礼，但他从不将人性最底层的腌臜与血腥倾倒给妻子和孩子们。乔科认为，承认黑暗的存在，是为了更深切地感知人性的崇高： > “在这个世界上有恶人，但同样有令人惊叹的善人。有人愿意为了救战友而献出自己的生命，这就是人性的一面。我选择凝视这一面，而不是沉沦于人性的阴暗面。但要想真正体会光明与良善的可贵，你就必须正视黑暗与邪恶的存在。” --- ### [39:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2343s) 痛失战友：以充实的生活致敬逝者 谈及海豹突击队生涯中最艰难、最受情感折磨的时刻，乔科毫不犹豫地回答：“在战斗中失去弟兄。”那份伤痛如同烙印，终生无法抹去。拉马迪战役（Battle of Ramadi）期间，战况异常惨烈，陆军和海军陆战队几乎每天都在阵亡士兵，许多前线指挥官手下阵亡了十几个甚至十五个弟兄。乔科强调，自己的痛苦绝非个例，面对失去至亲好友是全人类终将面对的共同宿命；即便如今尚未经历，死亡与离别也终究会降临在每个人头上。 乔科坚决拒绝用自我毁灭的方式去凭吊牺牲的战友。那些长眠地下的生死弟兄，绝不希望看到幸存者成日沉沦在悲痛中崩溃大哭、借酒消愁或是吞食止痛药度日。他们唯一的愿望，是活着的人能够替他们热烈地活下去： > “他们希望我好好活着，去拼搏，去把事情做成，去享受人生，去冲浪，去弹吉他，去练巴西柔术……如果我把他们用生命换给我的这份礼物给白白糟蹋了，他们地下有知，只会对我感到无比唾弃。” ### [41:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2495s) 悲伤的规律：不可避免的情绪风暴与哀伤处理 在失去朝夕相处的战友后，虽然理智会告诉自己必须坚强地活着，但处于那种极度痛苦的时刻，人很难保持纯粹的理性。Jocko Willink 谈到，经历过一次又一次失去挚友的打击后，他从情感、精神乃至生理层面总结出了一种“模式识别”（Pattern Recognition）。他常常用这种规律去开导那些正在经历巨大丧亲之痛的人：成年人必须接受自己有时就是无法掌控情绪这一事实。 从七八岁懂事开始，绝大多数人在成长过程中逐步建立了对情绪的控制力；到了三十来岁，人们早已习惯了维持体面与克制，极少失控。因此，当挚友或至亲突然离世，排山倒海般的情绪巨浪袭来时，许多人会产生剧烈的恐慌与过度反应，误以为自己彻底垮了，甚至自责地认为：“我都掌控自己情绪三十年了，现在却完全失控，我一定是出了什么毛病。”然而，这恰恰是心理自我疗愈的必经过程。 情绪的风暴总会遵循特定的节奏退去并卷土重来。第一波海啸退去后，人得以喘息并短暂重获掌控；接着第二场风暴又会降临，但威力已不如最初那般猛烈；随后间隔期会越来越长，风暴的强度也会逐渐衰减。这种周而复始的起伏，正是心智在对创伤进行消化和代谢。即便经过了三年、五年甚至十年，偶尔某个毫无防备的瞬间依然会被突如其来的波澜击中，但这完全是正常的生命反应，绝不意味着软弱或病态。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 创伤与悲伤情绪的波浪式代谢过程 accDescr: 描绘悲痛情绪随时间推移强度减弱、间隔拉长的自然疗愈过程。 subgraph WaveCycle ["悲伤情绪的代谢规律"] A["突发丧失事件<br/>（好友/至亲离去）"] --> B["第一波剧烈风暴<br/>（情绪彻底失控）"] B --> C["潮水退去<br/>（短暂恢复喘息与自控）"] C --> D["后续波次冲击<br/>（间隔拉长，强度递减）"] D --> E["长期常态整合<br/>（数年后偶有波澜，重获生活掌控）"] end ``` --- ### [44:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2679s) 六十年后的哽咽：接受悲伤的存在，但绝不沉溺 为了说明这种痛楚的长久性，Jocko 分享了自己播客节目中一位传奇老兵的故事。这位老兵先后参与了第二次世界大战、朝鲜战争和越南战争：二战时他只是一名年轻的列兵，朝鲜战争时期晋升为骨干，而到了越战期间（约 1967 至 1968 年），他已经担任统领 700 名士兵的营长。在节目录制中，当 Jocko 问及越战时该营伤亡士兵的情况时，时隔近六十年，这位饱经沧桑的老人依然当场哽咽，瞬间失去了对情绪的克制。 目睹这一幕，Jocko 心中涌起的不是悲凉，而是一种莫大的释怀与宽慰。他突然意识到：“原来这种感觉永远都会在，而这完全没有问题。”那位老兵深爱着他的部下，渴望能平安将他们带出战场却未能如愿，即便退役后又开启了另一份成功的事业、过着充实的正常生活，内心的痛楚也从未被真正磨灭。失去手足与战友的伤痛不会消失，为之动容正是因为曾经深切地爱过，这并非病态。 Jocko 坦言自己同样失去了多位挚友，每每触碰依然隐隐作痛，有时也会哽咽。但他决不允许自己沉浸在悲伤中自怨自艾，更不会让情绪停滞不前。因为他深知，牺牲的兄弟绝不希望看到自己终日消沉，“如果我那样做，他们会感到失望”。 - 老兵服役历程跨越三大战役：二战（列兵）、朝鲜战争、越战（营长，统领 700 人）。 - 创伤跨越六十年依然会引发情绪波动，证明真正的深情与哀思是终身伴随的情感烙印。 - 应对创伤的核心态度是承认伤痛合理存在，但拒绝沉溺其中荒废余生。 --- ### [47:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2826s) 铭记而非沉溺：别让情绪主宰决策的算式 在现代社会中，男性往往接收到关于情感表达的混乱信号：一方面是过度压抑，另一方面则是全盘宣泄。心理学早已证实，单纯的情感压抑和全盘隔离不仅无法消除痛苦，反而会导致创伤以酗酒、药物滥用等破坏性形式爆发；然而，走向另一个极端——任由悲伤主宰人生并不断做出糟糕的决定，同样是极其危险的。 Jocko 指出，许多人将“我经历过创伤”或“我失去了战友”当作逃避责任与生活溃败的免责借口。社会出于礼貌与同情，往往在面对悲痛者时小心翼翼地附和，甚至纵容其自毁行为；但这并非真正的帮助。Jocko 常年告诫成百上千名退伍军人一句话：“铭记，而非沉溺”（"Remember, don't dwell."）。人们可以拥抱情绪，但绝不能让情绪反过来反噬并主宰生活。 情绪必须被纳入考量，但绝不能成为整个决策方程式的压舱分母。人生面临抉择时，方程式的参数必须包含理性、未来愿景、既定目标、家庭责任、工作职责以及财务状况等众多维度。完全将情绪剔除，它会在日后反咬你一口；但若让情绪成为决策的绝对主导，整个人生轨迹就会偏离正轨。 | 应对极端 | 典型行为表现 | 造成的负面后果 | Jocko 倡导的平衡法则 | |:--- |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **过度压抑** | 隐藏脆弱、强行情感隔离 | 情绪转嫁为酗酒、嗑药或破坏性发泄 | **承认感受**：接纳偶尔的情绪失控是正常现象 | | **情绪放任** | 以“心理创伤”为借口做出各种错误决策 | 人生失控、自我沉沦、陷入受害者心态 | **夺回控制**：做出决定时，将情绪降为多元变量之一 | --- ### [50:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3037s) 迷失森林时的法则：迈开步子，行动打破内耗 当面临生活中的重大挫折时，人们最容易陷入无休止的焦虑和过度思虑。主持人提及 Jocko 曾给过一位遭遇人生巨变的朋友一个极具启发性的建议：“开始迈步往前走”（"Start walking"）。当时那位朋友正处于人生低谷，不仅婚姻走向破裂，赖以生存的工作也面临终结，整个人陷入了完全不知何去何从的瘫痪状态。 Jocko 用了一个生动的比喻来开导他：这就好比一个人在迷雾重重的森林里彻底迷了路，既没有妻子相伴，也没有工作指引。如果只是站在原地一动不动，你的视野和视角永远都不会发生任何改变；唯有迈开双腿开始走动，眼前的遮挡才会变化，新的路径才会展现。最坏的结果无非是走了一段后发现方向错了，那大可转身换个方向走；但如果因为害怕犯错而僵立原地，唯一的下场就是在森林里活活饿死、坐以待毙。 这种“以行动打破瘫痪”的哲学，正是源于军队在极端不确定性下的风险适应训练。在战场上，指挥官永远不可能掌握 100% 的全部情报，追求绝对确定性只会导致行动滞后，因为等你自以为摸清一切时，战局早已彻底改变。破局的唯一方式，就是做出当前条件下最小的可行决策，迈出最小的一步；生活同样如此，唯有持续行动，才能驱散焦虑的迷雾。 - “迷失森林”隐喻：原地驻足等于坐以待毙，唯有物理上的位移与前行才能打破固定视角。 - 试错成本收益比：走错方向可以调整纠偏，其代价远小于因过度思虑而带来的行动瘫痪。 - 军旅决策逻辑：在信息不完备的状态下迅速做出最小决策、迈出最小步幅，依靠即时反馈动态修正。 ### [52:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3176s) 迭代式决策与小步推进 面对人生或职业的重要转折——无论是辞掉工作、结束婚姻还是启动创业——许多人往往陷入寻求“100%确定性”的思维泥潭。现实中，人们在做出决定时通常只能达到60%、70%甚至80%或90%的确定感，因为渴望绝对的确定性而迟迟无法迈步。针对这种心理阻碍，乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink）提出了一套“迭代式决策流程”（iterative decision-making process）。这套方法的核心逻辑在于：不要采取非黑即白的极端跃进，而是通过持续的小步微调来化解风险与不确定感。 威林克以常见的职场困境为例：如果你非常讨厌当下的工作，每天在办公室都痛苦不堪，这并不意味着你应该在第二天早上一脚踢开老板办公室的大门喊道“老板，我讨厌这里，我不干了”。这种由情绪驱动的短期极端行为往往会带来灾难性后果。理性的迭代做法是化整为零：第一天开始梳理并更新个人简历；接着浏览 LinkedIn 上的岗位动态；评估目标职位所需的技能认证并着手提升；随后有针对性地投递简历并拓展人脉圈。通过一步一个脚印的前进，当你拿到一份理想的新工作录用信（offer）时，你便以一种平稳、渐进的方式，从令人沮丧的现状平滑过渡到了更有前景的机遇之中。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 迭代式决策流程图 accDescr: 展示从遭遇困境到通过小步迭代最终实现平稳转型的决策路径 subgraph Problem["初始阶段：识别问题"] A["现状不顺/陷入瓶颈"] --> B["放弃'追求100%确定性'的执念"] end subgraph Iteration["执行阶段：小步迭代测试"] B --> C["收集信息与梳理资产"] C --> D["针对性提升技能与补充资历"] D --> E["小规模试水并建立外部连接"] end subgraph Outcome["结果阶段：平稳过渡"] E --> F["获得确定性更强的新机遇"] F --> G["安全退出旧局面"] end ``` ### [54:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3248s) 决策的虚假终局性与低成本测试 主持人结合自己长达十年的市场营销经历指出，企业运营中最大的成本往往不是做出糟糕的决策，而是漫长停滞的时间成本。例如，为了获得一个采购发票审批，团队往往要耗费九个月时间等待“乔安娜（Joanna）休年假归来，再去跟采购部的戴夫（Dave）开会”。与之形成鲜明对比的是那些果断决策的首席执行官（CEO），面对低成本且可逆的事情时，他们会当场拍板“现在就做”。大多数商业决策的赢家之所以胜出，正是因为速度；现实中几乎绝大多数决定都不是“不可挽回的终局”，其产生的附带后果往往远小于人们的恐惧。 威林克对此深表认同，即使是买房这样的大宗决策，也远非无法更改的终生契约。如果买下一处房产后发现并不喜欢，大可以直接将其出售。虽然可能会因买卖双方经纪人佣金（各3%）及贷款手续费等损失几万美元（例如一套100万美元的房产可能损失8万美元），但绝不可能损失整整100万美元，这两三年的资金损耗完全可以重新赚回。同样地，在商业营销场景中，如果营销团队向CEO申请100万美元尝试新渠道，明智的管理者不会在“直接拒绝”与“梭哈下注”之间纠结，而是采取低成本测试思维：“100万美元风险太高，我们先拿10万美元试水，看看能换回什么样的反馈数据；效果好就继续跟进，效果不好就及时撤退转向。” - **时间成本高于决策失误**：等待审批与各方流程停摆的几个月，造成的潜在损失远超一个低成本试错决定的负面影响。 - **绝大部分决策具有高度可逆性**：将决策看作不可逆的终局是一种认知偏差，试错成本通常只是局部摩擦成本。 - **用低预算探测反馈**：通过缩小初次投入规模（如10%的小额预算测试）快速验证假设，避免盲目下重注。 ### [56:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3386s) 默认主动：克服等待与不作为的人类天性 商业环境中的反馈往往存在漫长的滞后性，决策推迟不会立即引发致命灾难，这使得许多管理者误以为“什么都不做”是风险最低的选择，但正如商业案例中所揭示的，面对同一机遇，一个执行耗时九个月的方案最终以失败告终，而立即执行的一方却迅速斩获成功。对于主持人关于“海豹突击队因战场生死压力才养成行动偏好”的提问，威林克澄清道，即便是在顶尖的海豹突击队，年轻军官也绝非天生就偏好行动。当被置于信息极度缺失、高压且充满未知的模拟实战环境中时，年轻军官的本能同样是犹豫、退缩和保持现状。 为了打破这种人类天生的迟疑本能，威林克在训练中必须强行植入“默认攻击姿态”（default mode: aggressive）这一行为准则。在模拟城镇攻防训练中，面对子弹和彩弹横飞的复杂建筑，年轻指挥官往往因恐惧和不确定性而本能后退；威林克会直接上前推着对方的后背厉声喝道：“看到那边的麻烦了吗？你必须上去解决那个麻烦，它自己不会凭空消失！”虽然在领导力中需要讲求平衡（如威林克在《领导力的二元性》一书中所阐述，有时确实需要审慎等待与观察），但在现实中，有70%的情况（十次中有七次）采取主动行动都远好于按兵不动。克服维持现状的惰性，将“采取行动解决问题”设置为心智的默认模式，是拉开平庸与卓越差距的关键。 - **不作为的虚假安全感**：人类本能倾向于观望与拖延，潜意识中误将“维持现状”视作阻力最小、风险最低的避风港。 - **行动概率法则（70%原则）**：在真实世界的多变局势中，约70%的场景下采取主动行动的收益远大于消极等待。 - **迎击问题而非回避**：战场与商业中的棘手麻烦绝不会因回避而自我化解，唯有主动上前拆解方能夺回战局主导权。 ### [01:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3600s) 战场上最自豪的时刻：彼此掩护与去中心化协同 当主持人问及威林克在海豹突击队服役生涯中最引以为傲的时刻时，威林克的回答没有提及个人的辉煌成就或勋章荣誉。他回忆起自己在伊拉克战场的无数个瞬间：当时他坐在装甲车里，或是沿街快速机动，在抽离于战斗焦点的视角下，静静地注视着自己的队员们。他目睹了世间最动人的一幕——一群精通自身专业技能的顶尖战士彼此掩护、无缝协作、相互交替掩护机动（cover and move），在纷乱残暴的战场上保全彼此并精准完成任务。 威林克动情地表示，这些时刻与他本人的虚荣心毫无关系，完全源于队员们的卓越与无私。战场环境瞬息万变，没有人能做到绝对完美，但每当看到小队运用极其简明的行动方案、清晰的优先级排列，并在去中心化指挥（decentralized command）框架下自主自发地为同伴挡下危险时，那种战友间高度信任与纯粹协同所迸发的力量，构成了他军旅生涯中最闪耀、最自豪的日子。 ### [01:01:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3691s) 海豹突击队的核心DNA：服务他人胜过利己 主持人观察到，威林克无论在军事还是商业咨询中，始终将“服务他人”作为实现自我价值的终极途径，这与当今社会普遍推崇的“优先满足自我以求充实”的利己思维大相径庭。威林克指出，这一信念深深植根于海豹突击队的文化基因之中：海豹队员最根本的信条就是“照顾好你的兄弟”。如果一个人把自身利益置于团队整体利益之上，无论他的个人军事技能有多么出类拔萃，都绝不可能成为一名合格的海豹队员。 在实际选拔与日常相处中，一个队员哪怕枪法神准、体能爆表、战术动作迅捷如电，但只要他在言行中流露出将自己凌驾于团队之上的自私倾向，排里的战友就会从心底将其彻底排斥在外。这种文化虽然极少被刻意写在守则上，但在团队中人人都能敏锐地感知到。如果一个人缺乏自我觉察（self-awareness），逐渐滑向只顾自己的利己主义，那么无论是在枪林弹雨的特种作战排，还是在商业组织的高管团队中，这种只顾自身前途而忽视他人的行为最终都将引发信任崩溃，彻底毁掉整个团队的凝聚力。 ### [01:03:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3782s) 争功者的陷阱与晋升的底层逻辑 职场与特种部队中总有一种人：自恃聪明过人，总以为自己在背后为个人利益钻营的小算盘不会被发现。但事实上，周围所有人看得一清二楚。这种人或许能侥幸获得一两次晋升、爬到某个特定职位，但他们其实是在亲手为自己掘墓。最终没人愿意与自私自利的人共事，他们彻底烧毁了自己的人际关系网，永远无法达到本应企及的高度。在海豹突击队以及后来的商业世界里，有一条永恒的铁律：善待他人，他人便会照顾你；若在背后算计坑害别人，迟早自食恶果。 主持人深有感触地指出，无论是谁，在职场中都能立刻认出两类截然相反的同事：一种是永远在抢功劳、处处以自我为中心的自私者；另一种则是默默奉献、把集体放在首位的人。领导力往往是“被赋予的，而非夺取的”。那些把工作做到极致、时刻为团队提供支持的人，最终会被大家自发推选为领袖，正如史蒂夫·乔布斯曾谈到的——最卓越的管理者往往是那些从没处心积虑想当官、但业务极度过硬且全身心投入集体的人。 Jocko 在其著作《领导力策略与战术》（Leadership Strategy and Tactics）中对此给出了直截了当的答案：如果有人问“怎样才能获得晋升”，答案就是“根本不要去想晋升的事”。全神贯注于团队、任务本身以及对队友的支持，晋升自然水到渠成。人性中往往存在阴暗的虚荣心，跳出来煽动你：“他们注意不到你的付出，你得现在就让他们看到！”但只要你主动举手索要功劳，你在别人心中的威望与价值就会瞬间贬值。抢功的那一刻，所有人都能嗅出那种自私自利的恶臭，这无异于向团队宣告：我个人比整个任务更重要。 - **索取功劳悖论**：越是迫切举手争取赞誉（Accolades），所能获得的真正认可与声望就越少。 - **领导力的本质**：真正的权威来源于下属和同侪的信赖与托付，是“被动赋予”而非“主动争抢”。 --- ### [01:05:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3940s) 如何应对自私之人与自负（Ego）的致命代价 面对军队或商业团队中那些自私自利、争强好胜的人，Jocko 总结出了一套看似反直觉却极其有效的应对策略：无论对方是上级、平级还是下属，他的做法一概是“帮他们树立良好形象，与其建立稳固关系”。他认为这类人内心往往存在某种性格缺陷，极度缺乏安全感，误以为必须靠抢夺荣誉才能在这个世界立足。Jocko 试图通过厚待他们，展现人际交往中的善意与信赖，从而感化并改变他们，让他们明白身处优秀团队之中无需通过自私手段来自保。 然而，这种转变并非每次都能成功。自负（Ego）是一种极为顽固且破坏力极强的力量。Jocko 坦言自己有过成功感化他人的经历，但也有过彻底失败的时候，因为某些人的自我防线根本无法动摇。军事史上充斥着无数将领因为个人自负而刚愎自用，最终葬送自己与麾下无数将士性命的惨烈案例。既然自负在战场上足以致命，那么在商业世界中，它同样能够轻易摧毁一家公司或引发毁灭性的决策失误。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 应对团队中自私个体的互动策略 accDescr: 展示面对自私个体时以支持化解防备的双向转化路径 subgraph 应对机制 A["遭遇自私的个体<br/>（上级 / 平级 / 下属）"] --> B["主动给予支持与认可<br/>帮其树立良好形象"] B --> C["建立良性协作关系<br/>传递安全感与信任"] end subgraph 潜在结局 C --> D["转化成功<br/>融入团队信任文化"] C --> E["转化失败<br/>顽固自负引发严重失误"] end ``` --- ### [01:07:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4073s) 告别巅峰战场：“记住过去，但绝不沉溺” 谈及从军生涯的结束，主持人引用了 Jocko 在 Tim Ferriss 播客上的沉重自白：“如果说我现在还有什么感到挣扎的，那就是‘除了那段岁月，其他任何事情还重要吗？’答案是否定的。没有其他任何事比得上，差得太远。”在经历了长达 20 年的高强度作战、拉马迪战役（Battle of Ramadi）的血火洗礼、强烈的使命感与兄弟情谊后，重新回归看似平淡的平民生活是一道巨大难关。 面对这种强烈的心理落差，Jocko 提出核心法则：“要铭记，但不要沉溺”（Remember but don't dwell）。他幽默地提到了电影《大人物拿破仑》（Napoleon Dynamite）中的角色里科叔叔（Uncle Rico）——这位大叔在高中橄榄球时代达到了人生顶峰，此后半生住在破旧面包车里靠推销厨具度日，每天嘴里念念不忘的只有当年的州锦标赛，幻想着如果教练当年派他上场会怎样。 Jocko 坦承，自己当年在播客中所说的话完全属实。世界上几乎没有任何事情能拥有如同战斗那样的烈度、使命专注度以及大喜大悲。商业中的创业、并购固然让人情绪起伏，但战斗是将人生中所有情感进行极端放大后的体验。尽管那段经历无可比拟，但他决不允许自己变成沉湎过去的“里科叔叔”。铭记那些岁月、缅怀牺牲的战友是必须的，但人生绝不能永远倒退着往前走。 --- ### [01:10:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4240s) 拒绝复出：不让纯粹的记忆蒙尘 每当世界某处爆发战争，Jocko 血液里的战士本能依然会被瞬间唤醒：“你随时都想磨利尖刀，重新出发。”能够将儿时的梦想作为终生事业并在海豹突击队服役二十年，对他而言是一份巨大的幸运。然而，当被问及既然仍有能力，是否会以某种方式重返特战前线时，他的态度却非常坚决：绝对不会。 从海军正式退役后，Jocko 虽然仍在为军方提供战略与领导力培训，但他绝不会以“佣兵”或游离于正规体制外的枪手身份重返战场。对他来说，失去了军人誓死捍卫的国家使命感以及真正的特战兄弟连纽带，纯粹的拿枪杀敌便丧失了灵魂。 更为关键的是，他不想玷污心中那份珍贵的回忆。他用终极格斗冠军赛（UFC）传奇拳手“蜘蛛”安德森·席尔瓦（Anderson Silva）的职业生涯作为比喻：席尔瓦曾统治擂台如超人一般，但在生涯晚期执意复出，在擂台上遭受重击落败，让车迷和观众痛心疾首。Jocko 不想重蹈这种覆辙：“我拥有那段极度美丽、纯粹的回忆，我绝不想因为在暮年盲目追逐过去，而玷污了曾经的传奇。”紧接着，主持人将话题自然引向了 Jocko 的畅销书书名与核心人生信条——“自律等于自由”（Discipline Equals Freedom）。 ### [01:13:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4393s) 为什么自律等于自由 许多人一听到“自律”这个词，脑海中立刻浮现出的是死板、严苛和剥夺自由。然而，Jocko Willink 指出，事实恰恰相反：“你在生活中越自律，你最终拥有的自由就越多。”虽然这听起来非常违反直觉，甚至具有悖论性质，但这正是他反复目睹的真理。 如果缺乏自律去锻炼和健康饮食，最终就会沦为疾病的奴隶；缺乏努力工作、储蓄和合理投资的自律，就会沦为财务状况的奴隶；缺乏正确管理时间的自律，肆意浪费光阴，最终就会发现自己根本没有任何空闲时间。自律是通往真正自由的唯一道路。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自律与自由的因果对比 accDescr: 对比缺乏自律带来的枷锁与保持自律带来的各项自由 subgraph Lack["缺乏自律：沦为奴隶"] L1["不锻炼 / 暴饮暴食"] --> S1["沦为疾病的奴隶"] L2["不存钱 / 不努力工作"] --> S2["沦为财务的奴隶"] L3["肆意浪费时间"] --> S3["丧失真正的自由时间"] end subgraph Discipline["践行自律：赢得自由"] D1["健康饮食与锻炼"] --> F1["身体健康与活力"] D2["努力工作与合理投资"] --> F2["财务独立与自主"] D3["严格的时间管理"] --> F3["充裕可控的自由时间"] end ``` ### [01:14:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4487s) 扔掉手里的多力多滋：从现在开始改变 针对那些躺在沙发上、肚子上放着一包多力多滋（Doritos）玉米片边吃边听节目的年轻人，Jocko 毫不客气地喝令：“吐出来，现在就扔掉它！”尽管垃圾食品能带来即刻的感官满足，但沉溺其中的代价是惨痛的。 改变必须从当下开始：扔掉薯片，去做俯卧撑；去五金店花 12 美元买根引体向上单杠安装在房间里。哪怕一开始一个引体向上都做不了，就只是悬挂在单杠上。随着时间推移，身体会变强壮、变健康，思维会更专注，心理韧性也会随之建立。你将逐步开始健康饮食、读懂世界，并在生活的各个层面取得进步。反之，如果继续沉溺于眼前享乐、逃避努力，最终将被生活彻底束缚——忍受着厌恶的老板、做着讨厌的工作、被疾病缠身、孤立无援地依赖着根本靠不住的人。自律正是打破这一切枷锁的起点。 ### [01:17:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4628s) 压力管理与 Whoop 赞助插播 在“压力意识月”（Stress Awareness Month）的背景下，主持人 Steven Bartlett 谈及了自己应对压力的方式：将健康与身心福祉置于首位，并将去健身房视作头号疗愈手段。同时作为智能穿戴设备品牌 Whoop 的投资人，Steven 介绍了该设备内置的实时压力监测功能（Stress Monitor），该功能依托神经科学家开发的呼吸训练方案和科研成果，能帮助用户在日间高压时刻即时调节情绪。 - 赞助权益：访问 `join.whoop.com/ceo` 可享受 30 天无风险试用。 ### [01:18:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4689s) 晨起习惯与个人节奏的平衡 Jocko 以极端早起（如清晨 4:30 或 4:45 起床，并在社交平台日复一日晒出手表闹钟）而闻名全球。Steven 对此感到困惑并提出讨论：作为经常跨时区飞行、饱受时差困扰的人，Steven 习惯晚睡，并将 11:00 之前不安排会议作为铁律，竭尽全力保护睡眠这一维系认知与情绪表现的基石。看到 Jocko 的作息后，他不禁反思自己是否需要彻底改变。 Jocko 给出了极为务实的建议：如果现有的系统行之有效——工作表现出色、身体健康、任务按时完成，那么即使天生是“夜猫子型”，也完全不必强求自己凌晨 4 点起。“如果你告诉我你作息混乱、偶尔熬夜偶尔锻炼、白天昏昏沉沉，那我才会建议你选定一个固定时间。”无论是早上 7 点、8 点还是 11 点，核心在于保持相对固定的就寝与起床时间，形成稳定的基石，并在醒来后通过某种形式的晨练来开启精力充沛的一天。 ### [01:20:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4816s) 日常不可妥协之事与“非生化人”特质 谈及个人生活中绝对不可妥协的日常习惯，Jocko 列出了自己的底线清单： - **每天早起并完成晨练**：这是他生活的绝对最低基准线要求。 - **巴西柔术训练**：只要日程允许，就会去练柔术。 - **冲浪**：只要条件允许就去冲浪。 - **每天投入工作**：管理旗下多家企业、撰写书籍以及录制播客。 当被问及“你是否曾经有过不自律的时候”，Jocko 坦然承认：“当然有，我不是生化人（cyborg）。”他最大的软肋就是巧克力曲奇饼干（chocolate chip cookies），每当面对它们时就会出现自律松懈。 ### [01:21:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4895s) 对军旅背景与军人的两大刻板印象 Steven 指出大众对成功人士往往存在光环效应，认为其在各方面都尽善尽美，而 Jocko 作为一个退役海豹突击队员，其公众形象也往往带有强烈的符号化色彩。Jocko 借此剖析了公众对军队以及他个人的两大典型误解： 1. **管理上的专制与独裁**：外界普遍认为军队领导模式就是居高临下地咆哮、发号施令，下属毫无自主权。当 Jocko 提到在海豹突击队中会让下属独立制定作战计划时，外界往往感到难以置信。事实上，高水平军事指挥极度依赖授权和团队协作，而非独断专行。 2. **粗暴野蛮的外貌偏见**：Jocko 调侃自己长得像个“尼安德特人”（Neanderthal），以至于人们理所当然地以为他整天都在冲着别人大吼大叫。但他强调自己从不对人吼叫，即便是与他共同创立 Echelon Front 并在海豹突击队布鲁瑟任务分队（Task Unit Bruiser）共事的商业伙伴 Leif Babin，也深知这种温和而坚定的沟通风格。 ### [01:23:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4989s) 领导力与军旅误解：倾听、克制与保持开放思维 谈及与战友（如在海豹三队共同部署至拉马迪的 Leif Babin）的关系与合作时，Jocko 提到他们如今一起合著多本畅销书，共同经营领导力咨询公司 Echelon Front。在拉马迪执行战备集训与作战部署期间，对方曾是其直接下属。即使对方打趣说“曾给过 Jocko 很多该被吼的理由”，但 Jocko 整个过程从未对他大喊大叫。在 Jocko 看来，吼叫根本毫无意义——作为领导者，如果你必须靠对别人吼叫才能传达意图，那就说明你在前期已经犯了至少 47 个其他错误。 领导力的终极目标甚至应该是“不发一言”。当下属早已心领神会、明白该做什么并主动落实时，领导者只需看向对方、竖起大拇指说句干得漂亮。外界对军队及 Jocko 本人最大的刻板印象，就是以为军旅出身的领导者全都是专制独裁、闭目塞听的。前不久有人问 Jocko：“如果突发冲突、带兵作战，你会把注意力放在哪里？”他的回答是：“保持完全开放的心态。”因为一旦在任务构想、兵力部署或敌情预判上抱持封闭固执的成见，就必然会被打得猝不及防。领导者必须敞开胸怀接纳新信息、倾听别人的观点；越往上走，越应该多听少说，正如 Steve Jobs 所言：招募优秀人才不是为了发号施令，而是让他们告诉自己该做什么。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 领导力误区与开放沟通闭环 accDescr: 展示专制大吼与优秀领导者开放倾听的对比路径 subgraph Failure["低效领导路径"] A["固步自封 / 闭门造车"] --> B["信息误判与前期失误"] B --> C["情绪失控 / 靠吼叫施压"] end subgraph Excellence["高效领导路径"] D["保持绝对开放心态"] --> E["多倾听、少说教"] E --> F["团队默契执行"] F --> G["无需多言，拇指点赞认可"] end ``` - **大吼大叫的本质**：如果需要靠大喊大叫来推动下属，代表领导者早已犯下了大量沟通与布局失误。 - **关于兼听则明**：很多人误以为升至 CEO 是因为自己“总能做正确决定”，进而拼命捍卫面子；然而真正的领导力在于倾听他人智慧。 --- ### [01:25:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=5124s) 现代男性的迷茫与所谓“有毒男子气概” 主持人和 Jocko 探讨起当代男性所面临的身份认同危机。在 2024 年，关于男性应当展现阳刚还是阴柔的边界变得前所未有的模糊。在英国等地区，18 至 40 岁男性最主要的死因竟是自杀，大量男性在寻找生命意义与目标感的泥潭中苦苦挣扎；与此同时，互联网上充斥着各类宣扬极端理念的“有毒指导者”。 对此，Jocko 起初开玩笑想引用马可·奥勒留的名言“不要再争论怎样才算一个好人，去成为一个好人”来逃避问题，但他随即严肃地拆解了“有毒男子气概”（Toxic Masculinity）的核心症结。他指出，人类无论哪一种特质——无论是传统意义上的男性特质、女性特质，抑或是其他优秀品质——**一旦走入极端，必然会沦为灾难**。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 特质走向极端的双向失衡模型 accDescr: 展示竞争、进攻性与冷酷在走向两极时的负面影响及中间平衡点 subgraph LeftExtreme["极端匮乏"] L1["完全没有好胜心"] L2["懦弱退缩任人践踏"] L3["情绪失控完全被支配"] end subgraph HealthyBalance["健康平衡点"] B1["适度竞争"] B2["坚定自主 Assertive"] B3["理性感知与自控"] end subgraph RightExtreme["极端过度"] R1["恶性竞争牺牲健康"] R2["推搡无礼霸凌他人"] R3["毫无同理的反社会人格"] end L1 --- B1 --- R1 L2 --- B2 --- R2 L3 --- B3 --- R3 ``` - **慷慨与善良**：本是美德，但若毫无节制，就会沦为任人剥削、陷入有害关系的受害者。 - **竞争意识（Competitive）**：过度的极端好胜会导致不择手段伤害他人、甚至透支身体健康；但如果一个人完全缺乏胜负欲、毫无进取心，同样是不健康的。 - **进攻性与魄力（Aggression）**：在餐厅粗鲁推开迎宾员或者对同事吼“闭嘴按我说的做”，是极度恶劣的；但如果一个人彻底丧失进攻性与魄力，连最基本的自我主张（Assertiveness）都做不到，便会彻底沦为软柿子被人践踏。 - **坚毅沉着（Stoicism）**：完全没有一丝情感波动并不值得夸耀，那是反社会人格；而任由情绪支配生活和决策，同样是灾难。 --- ### [01:29:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=5387s) 极端的诱惑与平衡的艺术 Jocko 直言，成为一个平衡的人才是最艰难的修行。走向极端其实是一件非常轻而易举的事——无论是彻底封锁所有情绪当个木头人，还是彻底放纵情绪肆意宣泄，都毫不费力；真正困难的，是在生活和事业中时刻保持微调与平衡。 即便是被无数人视为“自律化身”的 Jocko 本人，也坦承自己绝非冷酷无情的机器人。除了偶尔吃巧克力曲奇，他也会喝薄荷巧克力奶昔；有时在健身房热完身觉得状态极差，也会犯懒直接回家；原定当天要写 1000 字却一个字都没动，次日也拖延着没写。他直言，如果自己为了死守所谓的“每天必须写满 1000 字”的绝对自律，而在妻子提议外出共进晚餐时生硬拒绝，那根本不是自律，而是愚蠢与失衡。 - **动态反馈闭环**：追求平衡的核心在于对外界反馈保持极高的敏锐度。 - **工作与家庭的博弈**：如果连续九天妻子抱怨你无法回家吃晚饭，你就必须意识到自己工作过载了；反之，若为了女儿的摔跤赛季天天早退，老板提出质疑时，也必须立刻警醒。把 100% 精力全押在工作上会丢掉家庭，把 100% 精力全押在家庭上则会失去工作。 - **面对起伏的悟性**：当有人问 Jocko 从人生最高峰和最低谷的经历中学到了什么时，他的回答非常笃定：他学会了不让外界的极端高潮或极端低谷过分动摇自己的内心，始终把持住内心的平衡舵盘。 ### [01:32:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=5543s) 情绪稳定、三大核心法则与现代男性的空虚困境 生活充斥着不可避免的高潮与低谷：我们总会迎来胜利与失败、美妙与糟糕的夜晚、融洽与破裂的人际关系、赚钱与亏损。Jocko Willink 强调，如果一个人的情绪随这些外部变化剧烈起伏震荡，人生必然陷入泥潭。面对世界，必须找到一种稳定、居中的处世姿态，对眼前所见的一切保留一份清醒与理智（"take everything with a grain of salt"），不被任何极端力量轻易裹挟。 谈及如何成为一个好男人乃至优秀的普通人，Jocko 将其凝练为自己著作中的三大法则： 1. **极致互信/绝对责任（Extreme Ownership）**：为自己的人生与行为负全责，完全掌控自己的世界。 2. **领导力的二分法则（Dichotomy of Leadership）**：保持平衡，拒绝极端。虽然商业和生活中偶尔不得不做出极端决策（比如为了断臂求生一次性裁减半数员工），但这绝不能成为长久的生活常态——人必须回归中心与稳定。 3. **自律带来自由（Discipline Equals Freedom）**：以自律作为掌控生活的基石。 主持人随后指出，Jocko 频繁提到的“兄弟情谊”（Brotherhood）与“使命感”（Sense of purpose），正是当今年轻男性最匮乏却又拼命寻找的东西。很多人沉迷于电子游戏，正是因为游戏在虚拟层面填补了现实中缺失的连结与目标。面对主持人关于“如何才能感到充实”的追问，Jocko 毫不犹豫地给出了他的招牌答案：练习巴西柔术（Jiu-Jitsu）。 --- ### [01:34:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=5697s) 共同受难的纽带：从柔术馆、运动场到商业战壕 在 Jocko 的圈子与播客受众中，“生活遇到问题就去练柔术”几乎成了一个梗，但这背后蕴含着深刻的心理机制。当你疲惫不想出门时，去垫子上需要严苛的**自律**；训练结束后，多巴胺的释放会带来极佳的精神反馈；更重要的是，你与一群志同道合的伙伴在一起**共同受苦（shared suffering）**——彼此挥汗如雨、互相锁喉甚至冒着受伤的风险。Jocko 补充道，这种运动绝不仅限于男性，他的女儿们同样常年练习柔术。无论选择攀岩馆、CrossFit 健身房还是足球场，核心都在于定期与他人共同克服困难。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 共同受难建立深度联结的闭环 accDescr: 展现从共同面临挑战到获得技能与信任的心理转化流程 subgraph Challenge ["艰苦环境"] A["身体或心理考验"] B["共同受难与协作"] end subgraph Transformation ["能力与心理蜕变"] C["多巴胺与成就感"] D["极限决策与抽离能力"] end subgraph Outcome ["终极价值"] E["不可替代的信任纽带"] F["可迁移的实战领导力"] end A --> B B --> C B --> D C --> E D --> F ``` 海豹突击队在沙漠中负重行军、战术演练的本质同样是共同受难。Jocko 指出，商业组织也是如此运作的：团队加班解决危机、调配资源并克服难关，战胜后分享回报。相较于残酷的战争，Jocko 更推崇通过创立企业、打造产品、提供就业来建立战友情谊。他在自己的咨询管理机构 Echelon Front 发现： - 共同熬过 2008 年金融危机的企业团队具有极强的凝聚力与忠诚度。 - 一路顺风顺水、缺乏风浪考验的企业，员工离职率高，团队纽带十分脆弱。 只要改变思维框架（Framing），把商业危机看作打磨团队的契机，把个人磨难看作提升自我能力的途径，原来看似可怕的负面遭遇就会转化为人生中最具价值的财富。针对企业培训，Echelon Front 还会利用激光交火模拟器、爆炸声效与战术扮演，让企业管理者在混沌与压力中学习战场领导力法则：保持冷静抽离（Detach）并果断决策。 --- ### [01:39:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=5962s) 拥抱艰辛：活着与仅仅是存在（Live vs. Exist） 当主持人提及在海滩上被教官命令挽起臂膀步入刺骨冰水的严酷考验时，Jocko 直言那确实极其痛苦（"sucks"），但“痛苦的另一面才是真正值得珍视的价值”。对于陷入迷茫、失去方向的年轻人，Jocko 提出唯一的破局之道：**去做困难的事**。 - **不要逃避挑战**：缩在沙发上吃多力多滋（Doritos）绝不可能改变现状。 - **主动迎战风暴**：迈入冰冷刺骨的水中，直面未知。你可能会赢，也可能会输，但只要行动，你就一定会变得更强大。 - **承受连环失败**：面对挑战，人会经历一次又一次的失败，但这会为下一次战斗积蓄经验与韧性，直至最终摘得胜利。 Jocko 动情地总结道，没有这些挑战的人生充其量只是“苟存”（Existence），唯有迎难而上、经历挫折与蜕变，才是真正热烈地“活着”（Go live）。最后，主持人将话题引回此前谈到的“平衡”，直接询问他在海豹突击队服役的岁月里，面对高强度的使命、家庭与妻子，是否彻底打破了所谓的工作与生活平衡；Jocko 坦然承认，在人生的那个特殊阶段，他的生活确实完全失去了平衡，但他依然拼尽全力确保整艘“人生之船”没有偏离航向。 ### [01:42:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=6132s) 家庭中的「掩护与移动」：军属在后方的默默坚守 谈及工作与生活的平衡时，Jocko Willink 坦承自己在军旅生涯中完全处于失衡状态，而正是他的妻子在后方默默补齐了所有缺口。妻子非常清楚丈夫身负的使命及其严重性——他要带队奔赴战场，他在战场上的每一个决断，都直接关系到手下队员的生死存亡。在这种生死攸关的责任面前，Jocko 必须把百分之百的精力倾注在备战与训练上，因为稍有疏忽就意味着自己或兄弟们可能再也无法活着回家。妻子不仅彻底理解这一点，更主动承担起家庭的重责大任，将整个家庭拉回了平衡。 Jocko 动情地表示，自己像对待公主一样宠爱妻子，愿倾尽所有，唯独无法给予她应得的时间陪伴，但妻子从未为此抱怨过一句。他将这种默契比喻为作战领导力的第一法则——“掩护与移动”（Cover and Move）。当他在前线保家卫国时，妻子在家庭前线为他提供最坚实的掩护，独自拉扯三个乃至四个孩子长大，独自处理家庭财务、修理事先坏掉的热水器、更换破损的汽车轮胎等琐碎却棘手的一切家务。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 战斗领导力法则“掩护与移动”在军人家庭中的映射 accDescr: 展示前线作战与后方家庭支持如何互为掩护，维持整体的生存与平衡。 subgraph Frontline ["前线作战 (Jocko)"] A["专注战场决策与带队备战"] B["对部下生死负绝对责任"] A --- B end subgraph Homefront ["后方防线 (军属妻子)"] C["照料多名子女与日常生活"] D["操持财务、车辆与房屋修缮"] C --- D end Homefront -- "稳固后方，提供掩护" --> Frontline Frontline -- "心怀敬重与无条件感恩" --> Homefront ``` - **战斗领导力法则应用**：作战原则中的“掩护与移动（Cover and Move）”在家庭中体现为团队协作，一方全力在外冲锋，另一方稳固后方阵线。 - **家庭琐事的全部包揽**：面对三到四个孩子的生活起居，从修热水器到换轮胎，妻子承担了所有日常运转维系的重担。 ### [01:45:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=6301s) 无法言说的敬意与成千上万军属的牺牲 主持人敏锐地察觉到 Jocko 谈及妻子时神情中的强烈情绪，并询问这份情绪源自何处。Jocko 声音有些哽咽地解释，那是一种深入骨髓的感激之情（appreciation）。当身在远方战场的自己前途未卜、连能否生还都毫无把握时，妻子却在家里承受着同样的煎熬，同时还要拉扯着满地跑的孩子们坚守生活。 Jocko 特别指出，这不仅仅是他妻子的付出，成千上万的军人家属与配偶同样日复一日地在后方“坚守阵地”（holding the line）。无论军属是妻子还是丈夫，他们所做出的牺牲往往无法像军人那样得到外界的广泛表彰与认可，但他们理应获得同等的敬意与尊重。当被问及能否用言语把对妻子的感激表达出来时，Jocko 直言或许“无法用言语道尽”，但他无比确信——“她心里全都知道”。 - **军属群体的无形贡献**：全美有成千上万的军属配偶在幕后默默支撑，承受着亲人可能无法归来的巨大心理压力，却鲜少得到公众应有的赞誉。 - **默契胜过千言万语**：虽然语言无法完全承载这种巨大的感激，但夫妻双方对彼此的牺牲与支撑心照不宣。 ### [01:46:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=6395s) 终极之问：重逢的三位战友与一句“谢谢” 节目进入最后的保留环节：由上一位嘉宾在未被告知下一位是谁的情况下，在笔记本中留下一道问题。留给 Jocko 的问题是：“如果你能带回一位已经离世的人并与对方交谈，你会选谁？你们的对话又会包含什么？” 面对这个问题，Jocko 陷入了长久的沉默与凝重，最终说出了三位牺牲在拉马迪战场上的海豹突击队战友的名字——马克·李（Mark Lee）、迈克·蒙苏尔（Mikey Monsoor）和莱恩·乔布（Ryan Job）。当被问及想对他们说什么时，Jocko 只深情而克制地说了一句：“谢谢你们（Thank you）。”主持人追问究竟是感谢他们什么，Jocko 饱含热泪地答道：“感谢他们的一切（Everything）。” - **Mark Lee（马克·李）**：海豹突击队第3分队队员，在伊拉克拉马迪战役中阵亡，是伊拉克战争中首位阵亡的海豹队员。 - **Mikey Monsoor（迈克尔·蒙苏尔）**：海豹突击队机枪手，在拉马迪用身体扑向手榴弹救下战友而英勇牺牲，后被追授荣誉勋章（Medal of Honor）。 - **Ryan Job（莱恩·乔布）**：在拉马迪被敌方狙击手重创致盲，展现了超凡的坚韧，退役后因手术并发症不幸离世。 ### [01:47:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=6479s) 主持人的致谢与影响力的传承 节目的最后，主持人代表所有观众向 Jocko 致以由衷的敬意，感谢他和战友们为了让世界变得更美好而甘愿冒着生命危险奔赴战场，承受常人难以想象的苦难与家庭离别。主持人更感谢 Jocko 在退役后的这一人生新篇章中所做出的巨大贡献——他通过播客、商业著作以及针对儿童的心智启蒙绘本，正在潜移默化地拯救、改善并重塑无数人的命运。 主持人动情地分享，身边的许多年轻朋友都能清晰指出自己是在哪一个瞬间接触到 Jocko 的思想，并因此找到了走出低谷、迈出改变第一步的勇气（正如他所言，“吐掉手中的多力多滋薯片，去改变自己的人生”）。即使 Jocko 永远无法亲眼见到数以百万计受其影响的人，但这种力量实实在在存在着。Jocko 谦逊地回应：“能为大家服务是我的荣幸（It was an honor to serve）”，并在真挚的感谢中为本期访谈画上了句号。 - **多维度的文化影响力**：Jocko 退役后通过《Jocko Podcast》、领导力畅销书以及儿童绘本（如《Way of the Warrior Kid》系列），帮助全年龄层读者建立自律与责任意识。 - **行动的催化剂**：其标志性的“自律即自由”理念成为无数年轻人打破消沉、主动迎接挑战的精神支柱。 ## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=0s) 你的借口会毁了你（Your excuses will destroy you）。 — 乔科·威廉克 > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=0s) 如果你在森林里迷失了方向，不知道该往哪里走，那就迈开腿往前走。最坏的结果无非是发现自己走错了方向，这时你转过身换个方向继续走就是了；但待在原地什么都不做，就只能坐以待毙、活活饿死。 — 乔科·威廉克 > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=0s) 如果我必须靠对你大吼大叫才能把事情交代清楚，说明在此之前我已经犯了大概47个别的错误。我的终极目标是，自己根本不需要多说一句话，你就已经清楚该做什么。 — 乔科·威廉克 > [06:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=364s) 耸耸肩膀，然后继续向前冲（shrug your shoulders and go forward）。 — 乔科·威廉克 > [24:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=1466s) 各位，非常感谢大家来参加这次项目的启动会。先跟所有人说明一下，这是我第一次主导这种类型的项目。在座的很多同事经验都比我丰富，我后续一定会向大家请教诸多问题。如果在执行过程中，大家看到我偏离了轨道或者犯了任何错误，请务必当面指出来，因为我唯一的目的，就是带领大家打赢这场仗。 — 乔科·威廉克 > [36:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2177s) 在这个世界上有恶人，但同样有令人惊叹的善人。有人愿意为了救战友而献出自己的生命，这就是人性的一面。我选择凝视这一面，而不是沉沦于人性的阴暗面。但要想真正体会光明与良善的可贵，你就必须正视黑暗与邪恶的存在。 — 乔科·威廉克 > [39:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2343s) 他们希望我好好活着，去拼搏，去把事情做成，去享受人生，去冲浪，去弹吉他，去练巴西柔术……如果我把他们用生命换给我的这份礼物给白白糟蹋了，他们地下有知，只会对我感到无比唾弃。 — 乔科·威廉克 > [47:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=2826s) 铭记，而非沉溺（Remember, don't dwell.）。 — 乔科·威廉克 > [56:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=3386s) 看到那边的麻烦了吗？你必须上去解决那个麻烦，它自己不会凭空消失！ — 乔科·威廉克 > [01:13:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4393s) 你在生活中越自律，你最终拥有的自由就越多。 — 乔科·威廉克 > [01:14:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=4487s) 吐出来，现在就扔掉它！ — 乔科·威廉克 > [01:47:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg&t=6479s) 能为大家服务是我的荣幸（It was an honor to serve） — 乔科·威廉克 ## Mentioned 乔科·威廉克 (Jocko Willink), 史蒂芬·巴特利特 (Steven Bartlett), 美国海军海豹突击队 (Navy SEALs), 英国特种空勤团 (SAS), 特别舟艇部队 (SBS), 基础水下爆破/海豹突击队训练 (BUD/S), 《坚毅》 (Grit), 乔丹·彼得森 (Jordan Peterson), 《极致所有权》 (Extreme Ownership), 《领导力的二元性》 (The Dichotomy of Leadership), 《领导力策略与战术》 (Leadership Strategy and Tactics), 《Way of the Warrior Kid》, Echelon Front, Jocko Podcast, 史蒂夫·乔布斯 (Steve Jobs), 蒂姆·费里斯 (Tim Ferriss), 安德森·席尔瓦 (Anderson Silva), Whoop, 莱夫·巴宾 (Leif Babin), 马克·李 (Mark Lee), 迈克尔·蒙苏尔 (Mikey Monsoor), 莱恩·乔布 (Ryan Job) ## Video description Jocko Willink is a retired U.S. Navy SEAL officer and New York Times bestselling author, he is also the host of the Jocko Podcast, and co-founder of the leadership training organisation, Echelon Front. 00:00 Intro 02:04 “I Wanted to Be a Navy SEAL” 03:50 What Is a Navy SEAL and the Special 'Hell' Training 06:58 What It Takes to Become a Special Force Agent 08:59 What Is the Point of Working This Hard? 10:25 Can You Teach This Crazy Drive? 12:23 Is Our WHY Important? 15:36 Your Excuses Will Destroy You 20:10 The Hack to Build Confidence and Belief 25:04 Why Imposter Syndrome Is Necessary 29:22 Why the Special Forces Leaders Ask Their Team for Advice 34:03 The Craziest Missions and Things I've Seen... 36:56 The Dark Side of War and Losing Friends 47:44 Dealing with Sadness & Grief 52:39 Decision Making & Taking Action 01:00:19 From a Leader POV I'm the Proudest When My Team Does This 01:02:09 Why You Should Serve Others 01:05:16 Don't Do This If You Want a Promotion 01:08:31 Leaving the Military 01:13:39 Why Discipline Equals to Freedom 01:18:40 Create a Routine System in Your Life 01:22:11 The Biggest Misconceptions About the Military and Myself 01:26:02 Toxic Masculinity Traits 01:34:45 Finding Fulfillment & the Importance of Bonding 01:39:57 The Answer to Achieving Success 01:42:09 Work and Life Balance 01:47:24 The Last Guest Question You can listen to the ‘Jocko Podcast’ and purchase Jocko’s products here: https://bit.ly/3Uk75hj Follow Jocko: Twitter - https://bit.ly/3UmcjJx Instagram - https://bit.ly/3w2zZsQ YouTube - https://bit.ly/4cY32i1 Watch the episodes on Youtube - https://g2ul0.app.link/3kxINCANKsb My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Sponsors: Whoop: https://join.whoop.com/en-uk/CEO [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=3eZJ_y68wsg)

[0:00] 乔科·威廉克: 你的借口会毁了你（Your excuses will destroy you）。 [0:00] 乔科·威廉克: 如果你在森林里迷失了方向，不知道该往哪里走，那就迈开腿往前走。最坏的结果无非是发现自己走错了方向，这时你转过身换个方向继续走就是了；但待在原地什么都不做，就只能坐以待毙、活活饿死。 [0:00] 乔科·威廉克: 如果我必须靠对你大吼大叫才能把事情交代清楚，说明在此之前我已经犯了大概47个别的错误。我的终极目标是，自己根本不需要多说一句话，你就已经清楚该做什么。 [6:04] 乔科·威廉克: 耸耸肩膀，然后继续向前冲（shrug your shoulders and go forward）。 [24:26] 乔科·威廉克: 各位，非常感谢大家来参加这次项目的启动会。先跟所有人说明一下，这是我第一次主导这种类型的项目。在座的很多同事经验都比我丰富，我后续一定会向大家请教诸多问题。如果在执行过程中，大家看到我偏离了轨道或者犯了任何错误，请务必当面指出来，因为我唯一的目的，就是带领大家打赢这场仗。 [36:17] 乔科·威廉克: 在这个世界上有恶人，但同样有令人惊叹的善人。有人愿意为了救战友而献出自己的生命，这就是人性的一面。我选择凝视这一面，而不是沉沦于人性的阴暗面。但要想真正体会光明与良善的可贵，你就必须正视黑暗与邪恶的存在。 [39:03] 乔科·威廉克: 他们希望我好好活着，去拼搏，去把事情做成，去享受人生，去冲浪，去弹吉他，去练巴西柔术……如果我把他们用生命换给我的这份礼物给白白糟蹋了，他们地下有知，只会对我感到无比唾弃。 [47:06] 乔科·威廉克: 铭记，而非沉溺（Remember, don't dwell.）。 [56:26] 乔科·威廉克: 看到那边的麻烦了吗？你必须上去解决那个麻烦，它自己不会凭空消失！ [73:13] 乔科·威廉克: 你在生活中越自律，你最终拥有的自由就越多。 [74:47] 乔科·威廉克: 吐出来，现在就扔掉它！ [107:59] 乔科·威廉克: 能为大家服务是我的荣幸（It was an honor to serve）

[15:36] Jocko Willink: Your excuses will destroy you and take everything that you ever wanted from you if you let them. [16:32] Jocko Willink: Extreme ownership is this went wrong, this failed... and it's not the fault of my boss, it's not the fault of my girlfriend, it's not the fault of my parents... It's my fault, and I'm going to take ownership of it, and I'm going to fix it. [19:34] Jocko Willink: I'm going to give you a task that I know you can do... It's not going to be a total softball... but I'm going to give you something that I know you can handle. [24:58] Jocko Willink: This is my first time running a project like this. I'm going to have questions, and if you see me making a mistake, please let me know because I want the team to win. [26:40] Jocko Willink: If I'm looking down and in, I'm not looking up and out. If I'm coming up with a plan myself, I'm looking down and in. If I'm letting you come up with a plan, I can look up and out. [39:03] Jocko Willink: In fact, they would be disgusted if what I did with the gift that they gave me was piss it away. They'd be disgusted. And I won't do that. Not a chance. I'm going to live like they would want me to. [64:48] Jocko Willink: The minute you raise your hand and say, 'Give me credit,' your credit goes down. [82:11] Jocko Willink: If you have a closed mind about what the mission is, about how it's going to happen... you're going to get caught off guard. You have to keep an open mind. [76:14] Jocko Willink: stop discussing what it is to be a man and be one

[0:00] This is what I learned from 20 years of [0:02] being in the Navy Seals. Discipline, [0:04] drive, how to make decisions under [0:06] pressure, leadership, strategy, and [0:07] tactics that you can apply to business [0:08] and you can apply to your life as well. [0:10] So, let's go. [0:12] Jaco Willink is a former Navy Seals [0:14] officer [0:15] who uses his decades of military [0:17] training to help people become masters [0:19] of discipline and master their lives. [0:22] Your excuses will destroy you. Your [0:24] default mode should be to take ownership [0:26] because if these problems are because of [0:28] me, then I'm capable of fixing these [0:31] problems. [0:31] So, what's step one? [0:33] First of all, small steps can be [0:34] painful. Even something as simple as [0:36] going to the gym. If you're completely [0:37] out of shape, sometimes that can be [0:39] enough to make you say, "I'm not doing [0:40] it anymore." You need to envision a path [0:42] of where this can lead you to. Number [0:43] two, most human instinct is to hesitate. [0:45] But you see that problem over there, you [0:46] got to go solve that problem. It's not [0:48] going to go away. So, if you're in the [0:49] woods and you don't know where to go, [0:50] start walking. And worst case scenario, [0:52] you figure out that you walked the wrong [0:54] direction. Okay, now you can go walk in [0:55] the other direction. But standing there [0:57] not doing anything is just waiting to [0:58] starve to death. And the next challenge, [1:00] detach from your emotions. Good leaders [1:02] have control of our emotions. If I have [1:04] to yell at you to get my point across, [1:05] I've made like 47 other mistakes. My [1:08] goal is I don't have to say a word and [1:09] you already know what to do. [1:10] Is there anything else that you'd add to [1:11] that list? [1:12] Absolutely. In fact, people don't really [1:14] talk about this and this could apply to [1:16] just about anything. So if you're the [1:18] type of person that doesn't, you're [1:20] going to struggle. [1:21] Jocker, was there a hardest day while [1:23] you were in the Navy Seals? [1:26] Yeah, [1:29] that was the lowest point of my life. [1:35] Congratulations, Dario gang. We've made [1:37] some progress. 63% of you that listen to [1:40] this podcast regularly don't subscribe, [1:43] which is down from 69%. [1:46] Our goal is 50%. So, if you've ever [1:49] liked any of the videos we've posted, if [1:51] you like this channel, can you do me a [1:52] quick favor and hit the subscribe [1:54] button? It helps this channel more than [1:55] you know. And the bigger the channel [1:56] gets, as you've seen, the bigger the [1:58] guests get. Thank you and enjoy this [2:00] episode. [2:02] [Music] [2:04] Joo, surprisingly, [2:07] I couldn't find an awful lot in your [2:10] childhood that would indicate to me how [2:13] you became the man that you are today. [2:15] And I say that because there's a bit of [2:17] a stereotype that someone like you who [2:19] becomes a Navy Seal must have some kind [2:22] of traumatic early event that shaped [2:24] them to become some ultra resilient [2:26] human being. When you look back on your [2:29] childhood, [2:31] what are the sort of dominoes that fell [2:33] in that early chapter of your life that [2:34] made you the man you are today? I wish I [2:37] could positively identify the thing, the [2:41] moment. The closest I've come is that I [2:46] a little kid. I was a little kid. I [2:47] wanted to be some kind of soldier. I [2:49] wanted to be some kind of commando. And [2:52] that's I so I collected little little [2:54] soldiers, little plastic soldiers. And [2:57] one of the I had different military [2:59] units like historical military units [3:02] from around the world. And one of the [3:04] historical military units that I had was [3:06] the British commandos. And so I had [3:08] these tiny figurines and they had [3:12] machine guns and they had kayaks and [3:14] they had uh little boats, little [3:18] inflatable boats. And I thought to [3:20] myself, that's what I want to do. I I [3:23] want to do that. I I wish I could do [3:25] that. And then when I was probably [3:27] around [3:29] 12 or 13, I realized you actually could [3:31] do that. You could actually get the job [3:33] of being a commando. And then it was [3:36] just a matter of figuring out which one [3:38] of the American branches had the closest [3:42] thing to what I thought was a British [3:44] commando. And the closest thing that I [3:46] found was being in the being in the Navy [3:48] and being in the SEAL teams. [3:50] And at 19 years old, you applied to be a [3:53] Navy Seal. [3:54] Mhm. [3:55] Okay. So, I have to ask a very dumb [3:58] question here, which is what is a Navy [3:59] Seal? So [4:02] there's special operations which I guess [4:05] you know from England this is the the [4:08] the SAS and the SBS. So those are the [4:11] two sort of units that we get compared [4:14] to the most. And uh so a Navy Seal is a [4:18] part of the Navy but you're the special [4:20] operations component of the Navy. And [4:23] the the term SEAL is actually an acronym [4:26] which stands for sea, air, and land. [4:29] Because even though we're in the Navy, [4:31] we are trained to operate in the sea. In [4:35] the air, so in the sea meaning we dive, [4:37] in the air meaning we parachute and [4:39] repel, and then on the land meaning we [4:40] conduct land warfare operations. And you [4:43] take all those things, combine them [4:44] together, and that's what our job [4:46] consists of. I was under the assumption [4:48] that to become a Navy Seal or to be in [4:50] the SAS, you had to have 10 20 years in [4:53] of military service. You had to have [4:54] like an established military service and [4:56] then you get some like pop up on your [4:58] computer and it says like come to this [5:00] this building over here. And so to hear [5:02] that you applied at 19 years old, I was [5:04] like, "Oh, I didn't know teenagers could [5:05] apply." Yeah. No, I I was 18 years old [5:07] when I joined the Navy and I joined on a [5:09] contract that got me sent to SEAL [5:12] training and it took a year to get [5:13] through. So I was 19 when I finished [5:15] that up. [5:16] There is there's always debates about [5:18] well don't you want someone that's more [5:20] experienced and I actually loved the [5:24] fact that I was basically raised in the [5:26] SEAL teams. It it was just awesome. It [5:28] was an awesome way to grow up. It was an [5:30] awesome way to spend those those years [5:32] of your life learning the trade that you [5:34] wanted to learn. And so I thought it was [5:37] awesome and I think it worked out pretty [5:39] well. There is a [5:41] usually the the the percentage of people [5:45] that make it through SEAL training is [5:46] about 20%. People that are under the age [5:48] of 20, it goes down to about 5%. So [5:53] yeah, I was one of those like small [5:55] percentage of people that are very young [5:56] but still make it through. [5:58] And what is the characteristics that [6:00] they're ultimately testing with the [6:01] design of that training? What are they [6:02] testing for? [6:04] Will you keep going [6:08] in the face of [6:10] whatever? [6:12] Well, they they call the uh one of the [6:14] weeks hell week, don't they? [6:15] Mhm. [6:16] So, they try and simulate hell by the [6:19] sounds of it. [6:19] Yeah. They try and simulate hell. It's [6:21] it's [6:23] they actually were trying to simulate [6:24] combat initially when they created that [6:27] week. They wanted to take as much combat [6:32] simulation from World War II at the time [6:34] and put it into a very compressed [6:36] schedule so they could create these frog [6:39] men to go overseas and conduct [6:40] operations cuz World War II was going [6:42] on. And so they needed to compress the [6:44] training cycle. So they compressed a [6:46] bunch of that combat simulation into [6:48] it's about 5 and a half days, no sleep, [6:51] lots of physical activity, lots of [6:53] stress, lots of pain, and lots of people [6:56] quit. [6:57] How many people quit in that particular [7:00] week? Mo [7:00] I would say most of the people that quit [7:04] probably of of [7:07] it's probably 80% of the quitters quit [7:10] in that week. It's been long discussed. [7:13] I think there's a book um called Grit [7:15] where they discuss what it takes in [7:18] terms of character traits to get through [7:21] these kinds of endurance tasks. And [7:23] people often think it's those that have [7:24] the biggest muscles or that do the most, [7:26] I don't know, cardiovascular exercise. [7:29] But from what you've observed, and this [7:30] is maybe a broader point about adversity [7:32] in life, is there any similarities in [7:34] the people that are able to get [7:35] themselves through adversity? It it's [7:38] there's there's some internal [7:41] drive that you either have or you don't [7:44] have. And if you have it, you won't [7:46] quit. And if you don't have it, you're [7:49] going to quit. And it breaks people. The [7:52] other thing is you might be an [7:53] exceptional swimmer [7:56] and you might be exceptional upper body [7:58] strength but you're not that fast of a [7:59] runner. They're going to find that out. [8:01] Or you might be a fast runner but a bad [8:03] swimmer. They're going to find out what [8:04] your weaknesses. You might not like the [8:06] cold. They're going to see it. You might [8:08] not like the boat on your head. They're [8:10] going to see it. [8:12] They might see that you have a bad [8:14] temper. are going to find that and [8:15] they're going to pick at that thing to [8:18] either make you come out the other side [8:22] or make you quit. It's a pretty It's a [8:25] pretty amazing [8:26] thing. It's a pretty It's a pretty [8:28] amazing thing. It's a pretty profound [8:29] thing to look at from the outside and [8:31] and and see it cuz when I was going [8:32] through it, it was just sort of I was [8:35] young. I didn't care. I was going to do [8:37] it. There was nothing that they were [8:39] going to tell me that was going to make [8:40] me quit. I never thought about quitting. [8:42] If they told me to get back in the water [8:43] again, let's go. They told me to put [8:46] that log on on my shoulder, let's go. [8:48] Put the boat on my head, let's go. I I I [8:50] didn't care. Can you teach that? That [8:53] let's go. Let's We're going to jump back [8:55] in the water. Let's go. [8:57] I think that I think that's one of the [9:00] few things that you learn in basic SEAL [9:02] training is to shrug your shoulders and [9:05] go forward. [9:07] Like, one of the things they do is [9:10] they'll they'll line you up on the [9:11] ocean. And this is in California. And [9:13] sometimes people think that California [9:15] is nice warm water, but it's not. It's [9:17] 55 degrees. And I don't know what that [9:19] translates to in centiggrade, but it's [9:21] cold. And one of the things they do is [9:23] they'll they'll line you up and they say [9:25] interlock arms and you get arm- arm with [9:27] the guy next to you and they say forward [9:28] march. And you march in the water and [9:29] they say take seats and you sit down and [9:32] they leave you in there and it's called [9:34] surf torture. And you just sit there and [9:36] they'll after a while they'll pull you [9:39] up out of the water. They'll line you up [9:40] and the doctor will come down and see if [9:42] anyone has hypothermia. And if no one [9:44] has hypothermia or signs of hypothermia [9:46] yet, get back in the water. And then [9:48] they just keep doing that. And so, yeah, [9:51] it's uh what you learn to do is okay, [9:55] I'm going to go forward. There's no I [9:57] can't get out of this. I'm going to go [9:59] forward. I'm not going to quit. So, I'm [10:00] going to go forward. Bring it on. And I [10:02] think if there's anything that you [10:03] learn, it's to to [10:06] keep pushing [10:08] through things that suck. And I would [10:10] love to say like, oh, so keep pushing [10:12] through adversity, but this isn't [10:13] adversity. This is just things that [10:15] suck. It's one level below adversity. [10:18] Adversity is when you're having a [10:19] challenge. This is just something that's [10:21] going to suck, and you're going to have [10:23] to push through it. cuz I'm asking [10:25] myself if this is something I could [10:27] teach, you know, or I could be taught [10:29] because I I look at someone like you [10:31] who's, you know, done all the things [10:32] that you've done through your life and I [10:34] go, did did you have some kind of innate [10:37] advantage or can we all become Joo? [10:41] If I had to guess, [10:44] I would say no. I I would say you can't [10:47] teach it. I would say that you can grow [10:50] it. If you've got the seed of some sort [10:54] of fire, [10:57] you could probably grow and you can get [10:58] better at it. But [11:02] it's same thing. You go back to like [11:03] prison. If you've ever met anyone that [11:06] was a prisoner of war [11:08] or people that went through like the [11:10] Baton Death March, there's some people [11:13] that had a will that they were not going [11:16] to die. [11:19] They I'm not going to die. I'm going to [11:20] keep going. And and the people that [11:23] died, they they did not have the will to [11:25] live. And think about how bad things [11:26] have to be before you say, you know [11:28] what, I'm just going to lay here and [11:29] die. [11:31] That and that can get to that point. I [11:33] had a guy on my podcast that was he was [11:38] shot down in Vietnam and he was shot [11:40] down in South Vietnam, captured and so [11:43] he had to do a seven-month trek through [11:44] the jungle with his captors and at one [11:48] point he's in a two-ft tall bamboo cage [11:52] in the jungle and he's trying to fall [11:55] asleep but he can't sleep because the [11:59] rats are gnawing at the wounds on his [12:02] legs and and he shackled. [12:05] And he was with guys [12:08] that [12:11] did not have the the intrinsic will to [12:15] carry on. And if you didn't have that [12:17] will to carry on, you die. [12:23] You talked about the role that having a [12:25] why plays and I was thinking about, you [12:27] know, if I just if I just lost my [12:29] girlfriend or someone I'd gone through [12:31] some severe rejection or someone in my [12:33] life had died and their part my parting [12:35] promise to them was I was going to do [12:36] this. The role that having some kind of [12:39] reason to carry on plays in how we [12:42] handle adversity or things that suck. [12:44] Did you see have you seen any patterns [12:45] in that? Is it important? cuz there's [12:47] books behind me that literally say start [12:49] with your why and those kinds of things. [12:51] Yeah. And you know that's a [12:55] anything from oh my girlfriend dumped me [12:58] and I'm going to prove her wrong to [13:00] something that much more significant [13:02] which is my girlfriend died and I told [13:04] her I was going to do this. I'm going to [13:05] do it for her. Both those things [13:09] depending on the human being can be a [13:11] strong enough I a strong enough why to [13:13] get through. And I've I've I have [13:16] friends that were [13:19] I have one friend that was into Vietnam. [13:21] He was in Vietnam and when he showed up [13:22] SEAL training, he didn't know what it [13:24] was. He thought he was volunteering to [13:26] be like a diver, a a diver that would do [13:29] construction under under boats. He [13:30] thought that that that what it was. And [13:32] so he showed up and they're like, "This [13:34] is SEAL training. He's what's a seal?" [13:36] And they kind of explained it to him and [13:38] then he went and made it through all [13:40] that torture, all that mayhem. And why? [13:43] cuz that was what they were telling him [13:44] to do. And he was, "Okay, that's what [13:46] we're doing. Let's go." So, again, I [13:50] would love to be able to, you know, give [13:53] you this profound anchor that people [13:55] need to have, but it's like, "Oh, do do [13:58] you want to do this or not?" Which is [14:00] what I think a lot of it boils down to. [14:01] Do you actually want to do this or not? [14:04] Do you actually want to do this or not? [14:06] Because if you actually want to do it, [14:08] what's going to stop you? Nothing. And [14:10] if you don't really want to do it, [14:13] what's going to stop you? Just about [14:14] anything that comes up, just about any [14:16] obstacle that gets in your way becomes [14:18] an excuse. It becomes a reason. It comes [14:21] a rationale for not proceeding down that [14:23] path. And and and this is interesting, [14:26] too. You when you talk to people that [14:27] went to SEAL training that didn't make [14:29] it, most of the time it's [14:33] some reason. There's a medical reason. [14:36] There's a family problem. There's very [14:39] few people that look at you and say, [14:40] "Oh, I quit cuz it sucked." Which is [14:42] what, by the way, which is what happens [14:44] to the vast majority of people. The vast [14:46] majority of people that don't make it [14:47] through SEAL training, and by this I [14:49] mean 80 90% of the people that don't [14:51] make it through SEAL training, they [14:52] didn't make it through because they [14:54] quit. Then there's a small percentage [14:57] that had a medical problem. And then [14:58] there's a small percentage that got [14:59] performance dropped, meaning they [15:01] couldn't perform the runs, the swims, [15:04] the the the technical aspects of the [15:06] job, and they failed. and they get [15:08] dropped. But the vast majority of [15:10] people, they quit. But they don't [15:12] usually say that. And even in their [15:14] mind, they probably don't believe it. [15:16] They probably believe, well, you know, [15:17] it was my leg and once my leg was [15:19] hurting, I knew I was going to have a [15:20] hard time on the runs. And since I [15:22] wasn't going to be able to make the [15:23] runs, I just that's why I quit. But it [15:25] wasn't really quitting. It was cuz my [15:26] leg. [15:27] So, it's it's it's like I said, it's a [15:30] very it's a very strange and and and and [15:32] really kind of a a mystical thing. [15:35] Excuses. You're talking there about [15:37] people making excuses. [15:38] Yeah. [15:39] What have you come to learn about the [15:40] nature of excuses and if they are our [15:42] friends, our enemies, if they're ever [15:44] useful, [15:45] your excuses will destroy you and take [15:48] everything that you ever wanted from you [15:50] if you let them. [15:52] Doesn't sound like a friend. [15:53] No, it's definitely not a friend. It's [15:55] definitely not a friend. It It can seem [15:57] like a friend just like your friend that [16:00] uh keeps feeding you drinks at the bar [16:01] can seem like a friend, but are they [16:03] really helping you in any way, shape, or [16:04] form? No, they're not. They're not. So, [16:07] when you when your excuses make you feel [16:09] a little bit better about the fact that [16:12] you didn't execute on what you needed to [16:15] execute on, [16:17] then they can make you feel better, but [16:19] they're not helping you. They're not [16:20] helping you at all. Is that what you [16:23] when you think about extreme ownership, [16:24] which is the title of um this book here [16:27] in front of me, is are excuses the [16:29] opposite? Excuses and blame, is that the [16:32] opposite of extreme ownership? That is [16:33] the opposite of extreme ownership. [16:35] Extreme extreme ownership is this went [16:38] wrong. This failed, didn't accomplish [16:42] this, and it's not the fault of my boss. [16:44] It's not the fault of my girlfriend. [16:46] It's not the fault of my parents. It's [16:47] not the fault of the weather. It's my [16:49] fault, and I'm going to take ownership [16:51] of it, and I'm going to fix it. That's [16:53] what extreme ownership is. And this is a [16:56] very difficult thing to do because it [16:58] hurts. Because when you look around at [17:01] your life and you look around at your [17:04] job and your financial situation and [17:06] your relationship and your physical [17:08] health and when you look at all those [17:10] things and all the problems that you may [17:12] have with those things and you say, "The [17:14] reason I have all those problems [17:17] is because of me." [17:20] That can hurt. That can sting. [17:23] And a lot of times our ego rejects that [17:27] and makes excuses and lies and then we [17:30] don't have to change anything and then [17:32] nothing changes [17:35] if someone was on the extreme end of [17:37] that disease of excuse and blame and all [17:41] of those things. Is there anything that [17:43] you could do or you would advise them to [17:44] do to kind of walk back from there to [17:47] get over the other side? Because I think [17:48] we can all think of people in our lives [17:49] and maybe even ourselves at times who [17:52] have gotten into a chronic pattern of [17:54] using excuses and blame as a form of [17:56] self-defense because we don't want to [17:58] turn that mirror back at us and have to [18:02] confront reality. Like I think sometimes [18:04] if I think about my some of my closest [18:06] friends, those that have the lowest [18:08] self-esteem will use excuses and blame [18:11] the most because it's, [18:14] you know, personal responsibility might [18:17] not in the short term at least do [18:19] anything for my already low self-esteem. [18:22] So I'm going to blame the world as [18:24] self-defense. What's step one to get out [18:27] of that? Well, unfortunately, what [18:29] happens a lot, and you you may or may [18:32] not have seen this, but I I would assume [18:34] you've seen this at some point in your [18:35] life, [18:37] people, and this is a term. There's a [18:39] term it's rock bottom, right? This is a [18:41] term that we hear for someone that's [18:43] addicted, someone that's an alcoholic, [18:45] someone that's physically let themselves [18:48] go, someone that's put themselves into a [18:51] situation with their finances or their [18:52] work or whatever, where they reach rock [18:54] bottom. But when it when it when the [18:57] excuses all go away and people can [19:00] actually confront the fact that this is [19:02] all because of me and this is it hurts [19:07] but is also unbelievably empowering [19:11] because if these problems are because of [19:13] me then I'm [19:17] capable of fixing these problems. So [19:21] even though extreme ownership hurts and [19:23] is painful, it's also liberating because [19:26] now you have control over your fate and [19:29] over your destiny and that is a glorious [19:31] thing. Is that to you how you start to [19:34] build confidence? Confidence seems to be [19:36] this really elusive thing. Confidence [19:38] ultimately is a belief you have and [19:40] these beliefs are like instruction [19:41] manuals for our life. You must have seen [19:44] in your you know in your all your years [19:46] some people really build their [19:49] confidence and I guess you've seen other [19:50] people destroy their confidence. [19:52] So what is the nature of how we build [19:54] our own confidence? [19:55] Yep. You're right. I have seen it and [19:57] I've had to do it to people. I had to [20:00] take people and build their confidence. [20:03] And so how do you do that? You know, if [20:04] you're a young officer in the SEAL teams [20:07] and you you feel like maybe you kind of [20:09] got here, you got lucky, you barely made [20:11] it through training and all of a sudden [20:12] I'm saying, "Hey, you're in charge of [20:13] this squad right here." And you don't [20:15] feel like you have the confidence to do [20:16] it. And so it comes time to make a [20:19] decision and you're sort of looking [20:20] around and the guys are looking at you [20:21] like, "Hey, you going to make a call or [20:22] what?" And finally someone just steps on [20:24] you and says, "Hey, I got it. Hey, [20:25] everyone move over to this building." [20:26] And now your confidence goes down even [20:28] lower, which is a problem. So how am I [20:30] going to build your confidence? Well, [20:31] what I'm going to do is I'm going to [20:33] take you I'm going to put you into a [20:34] situation [20:36] that I know you can handle. I'm going to [20:39] put I'm going to give you a task that I [20:41] know you can do. It's look, it's not [20:44] going to be a total softball. It's not [20:46] going to be a joke of a task, but I'm [20:47] going to give you something that I know [20:49] you can handle. And I'm going to let you [20:50] do that. And I might let you do that [20:51] two, three, four, five times. I might [20:53] say, "Hey, on this next operation, [20:55] Stephen, I want you to uh you're going [20:56] to you're going to you're going to hold [20:58] the left flank with your with your [21:00] squad. The whole everyone else is [21:02] assaulting buildings. They're setting up [21:04] external SC. You're just Hey, just you [21:06] just hold this. You just set your team [21:08] up on this burm over here [21:11] and and watch to the north. And look, [21:14] this is a pretty easy job. All right. [21:15] And so you go out there, you take your [21:17] team, you get on the burm, you look to [21:18] the north, you do a good job. [21:22] confidence goes up a little bit. Now, [21:24] look, there was no pressure. You didn't [21:25] have to make any decisions, but you did [21:27] what you were supposed to do. And I [21:28] might have you do that two or three [21:30] times. And then the next time I say, [21:31] "Hey, you know what? Hey, good job out [21:32] there. I'm going to build up your [21:33] confidence a little bit." And then I'm [21:35] going to say, "Hey, I need you to handle [21:38] security to the north [21:41] and to the west." All right? So, you're [21:42] going to have two squads now. So, I'm [21:44] just going to give you small tasks that [21:46] I know you can handle to build up your [21:48] confidence and over time you will become [21:51] more and more confident and you're going [21:52] to hit some challenges and you'll [21:54] overcome those challenges and if you do [21:56] great your confidence grow if you fail [21:59] in a challenge I might have to reset you [22:01] a little bit but this this sounds like a [22:03] big long process but it's actually [22:05] usually not that long it's actually [22:07] people kind of nod their head oh yeah I [22:09] can do this contrarily sometimes I get a [22:13] a guy who's overconfident [22:16] and you know I got Stephen walking here [22:17] like uh you're darn right I should be in [22:20] charge and what do I do with you because [22:22] now you got an ego you're not listening [22:23] to people now I'm like hey Stephen you [22:25] know since you're doing so awesome why [22:28] don't you run this whole assault team [22:29] tonight and you go yeah no problem and [22:32] then you get out there and you're not [22:34] ready to lead a whole assault team [22:36] you're not ready for that chaos and that [22:37] confusion and that mayhem and so about [22:40] halfway through the assault when there's [22:42] you've completely lost control. I might [22:45] walk in and say, "Hey, Stephen, I'm [22:46] sending Chief down there to straighten [22:47] you out." And you go, "Roger, thank [22:49] you." And you get humbled. [22:53] So, if someone's trying to build [22:55] confidence from a work perspective, we [22:57] do the same thing. Whether it's a a [22:59] business, a company, give that person a [23:01] task, a project that they can handle and [23:02] help them build their confidence. Now, [23:04] as far as you as an individual human [23:06] being, it's a very similar process. [23:09] Train, [23:11] study, [23:13] work, practice. [23:16] Train, study, work, practice. Train, [23:20] study, work, practice. And eventually [23:23] you will increase your confidence. [23:26] So I in your book you were talking about [23:29] the fact that you didn't like speaking. [23:30] You didn't like public speaking. So what [23:32] did you do? Did you sign up to go talk [23:36] in front of a thousand people, you know, [23:38] tomorrow afternoon? No, you started [23:39] small and you built a little bit of [23:41] confidence and then you win a little bit [23:43] bigger of an audience and the confidence [23:44] grows a little bit more. Little bit [23:46] bigger audience, the confidence grows [23:47] and you get to a point where there's no [23:48] audience that's going to stumble you in [23:51] any way. So that's the same process. [23:54] It's it's basically exposure therapy, [23:57] right? It's it's basically exposure [23:59] therapy where you expose yourself to a [24:01] little bit and this is you know you're [24:03] talking about Jordan Peterson exposure [24:05] therapy. I give you a little bit. I [24:08] don't overwhelm you with it because if I [24:09] overwhelm you with it, you're going to [24:10] be scared of it. I mean, if you lack [24:12] confidence and I put you in charge of [24:13] something that you can't handle, your [24:15] confidence is going to go back even [24:16] further. So, I need to give you enough [24:19] exposure that you do well, increase your [24:23] confidence, and you're going to do fine. [24:26] Whenever we're swimming, I don't know, a [24:28] couple of centimeters just outside of [24:30] our depth in any regard, we have that [24:33] thing that some people have dubbed [24:34] imposter syndrome where we start, the [24:36] story we tell ourselves about this depth [24:40] is that we're a fraud. We shouldn't be [24:43] out this far. Um, we're going to get [24:45] found out. And that can sometimes I [24:47] think if we tell ourselves that story [24:48] about whatever, you know, depth we're [24:50] swimming at, that lowers our [24:52] performance. Sometimes it can make us [24:53] our confidence decrease. What is your [24:55] take on this term imposter syndrome? Do [24:56] you think it's a real thing? [24:58] Yeah, I think it's a real thing and I [24:59] don't think it's bad. I don't think it's [25:01] bad because if once again, if you're [25:05] coming to work for me and you're like, [25:06] I'm glad you hired me. I'm ready to take [25:08] over this department. Look out. [25:11] I'd be a little bit questioning [25:14] the fact that you're so overconfident [25:16] that you're going to go in and do things [25:18] that you might not really understand. [25:21] Now, if you had a little imposter [25:22] syndrome and you said, "Hey, Jo, I [25:24] really appreciate you hiring me. Um, you [25:26] know, I haven't really done this type of [25:28] work before. Can I ask you a couple [25:30] questions?" I'd be thinking to myself, [25:32] "Okay, he's humble. [25:34] He's wanting to do a good job. He [25:37] doesn't think he knows everything." I'd [25:38] feel more comfortable with someone like [25:41] that. So, I don't think imposttor [25:43] syndrome is a bad thing. I think if you [25:46] feel it, it's actually a good indication [25:48] that you're humble and you have an open [25:50] mind and you're going to listen to what [25:51] people have to say. So that's number [25:52] one. And number two, if you feel like [25:55] you have imposttor syndrome, if you [25:57] going to [25:59] a meeting and you're going to get [26:01] assigned a project or you're going to be [26:02] discussing a project that you're really, [26:04] wait, should I even be here? Should I be [26:06] put in charge of this project? What you [26:08] do is you go into the meeting and you [26:09] say, hey everyone, I really appreciate [26:11] everyone coming to the kickoff of this [26:12] meeting. Hey, just so everyone knows, [26:14] this is my first time running a project [26:15] like this. I'm definitely going to have [26:17] some questions for some of you that done [26:18] this before. So, if you see me going off [26:21] track on something and you see a mistake [26:22] that I'm making, please let me know [26:24] because what I want is for the team to [26:25] win. [26:27] Okay, there it is. It's on the table. I [26:30] don't know everything. I'm not that [26:32] experienced in this particular thing, [26:34] but I'm humble and willing to listen, [26:36] and I want the team to do well. No more [26:38] imposter syndrome. [26:40] Is that the same in the Navy Seals? cuz [26:41] one would assume that you, you know, as [26:43] a leader, you've got to tell people what [26:44] to do. [26:45] That is [26:47] wrong. In the Navy Seals, and that is [26:50] not a good assumption. In the SEAL [26:52] teams, you the good leaders in the SEAL [26:54] teams absolutely have an open mind, want [26:58] to hear other people's opinions on how [26:59] to execute an operation, want to hear [27:02] what shortfalls there are when a plan is [27:05] presented that, hey, what about this and [27:06] what about that? And a good leader is [27:10] not going to impose plan as in fact my [27:13] standard operating procedure was to have [27:16] my subordinate leadership come up with [27:18] plans instead of me trying to come up [27:19] with the plans. In fact, that's the best [27:22] way to operate. [27:23] That means you ask them for the plan [27:25] 100%. [27:27] Why? [27:28] There's a multitude of reasons. Number [27:31] one, I want you to have ownership of the [27:34] plan, right? So, if I'm imposing a plan [27:36] on you, then that's not really your [27:39] plan. I want you to I want you to come [27:41] up with a plan and I want you to go to [27:42] your team and I want you to collectively [27:44] come up with a plan that you all embrace [27:46] and understand and buy into. So, it's [27:49] going to be a better plan from your [27:52] perspective if you come up with it. [27:53] Also, if I come up with a plan, I'm in [27:56] the plan. So, when I'm in the plan, I [27:58] can't see the plan as well. I want to be [28:02] outside the plan looking at it from the [28:04] outside from a different perspective [28:06] where then I can see the holes in the [28:07] plan and I can ask you some questions [28:09] about the plan that you came up with. [28:11] And finally, if I'm coming up with a [28:13] plan, if I'm staring down at the map [28:14] coming up with a plan, well, who's [28:16] looking up and out? Who's looking at the [28:19] followon operations? Who's looking at [28:21] where our our other units are out in the [28:24] battlefield? Who's checking on the [28:26] intelligence that we're gathering about [28:27] the enemy? If I'm looking down and in, [28:29] I'm not looking up and out. If I'm [28:32] coming up with a plan myself, I'm [28:33] looking down and in. If I'm letting you [28:35] come up with a plan, I can look up and [28:37] out. You can look down and in. And we [28:38] can have a lot more awareness of the [28:41] battlefield. [28:44] Often leaders and managers, we get, I [28:46] think, caught up in [28:49] in the proverbial trenches. We get a [28:51] little bit too close to the painting, so [28:52] we can't see the picture. [28:54] How important do you think it is to be [28:56] the leader that's able to take a step [28:58] back? [29:01] That is the job of a leader. That is the [29:05] job of a leader to take a step back, [29:08] detach from the situation and [29:11] see the entire picture of what is [29:14] unfolding or what is being planned or [29:16] what is happening. [29:18] If you are in the problem, you won't see [29:21] the solution to the problem. [29:23] it it you we will very rarely. So you [29:26] have to be able to detach. And that's [29:27] one of the the main things that I tried [29:29] to teach young leaders when I was in the [29:30] SEAL teams. It's the same thing that I [29:32] try and teach leaders now is to take a [29:34] step back, detach from the chaos, detach [29:38] from the mayhem, detach from your [29:39] emotions, detach from your ego, and be [29:42] able to assess the best way to execute [29:45] and [29:47] give, you know, the book, the book is [29:48] called Extreme Ownership that you [29:50] referenced. That doesn't mean that I do [29:52] everything myself. [29:53] In fact, what I want to do is I want you [29:55] to take ownership. And how do I get you [29:57] to take ownership? I give it to you. [29:59] Hey, Stephen, how do you want to run [30:00] this project? [30:03] And and listen, [30:05] what if you come up with a terrible [30:07] plan? Oh, no. No. Let's say let's say [30:09] you come up with a let's say I come up [30:12] with like I in my mind I've got [30:14] something that's going to be a 95% [30:15] solution. And I say, well, you know, I'm [30:19] going to delegate. So, Stephen, how do [30:20] you want to do this? And you come up [30:21] with like an 80% solution. Now, what [30:24] should I do? [30:26] I'll tell you. I'll still let I'll still [30:28] run with your plan. I'll be like, "Okay, [30:31] Stephen, sounds good." If you come to me [30:33] with a 70% plan, I might say, "Hey, [30:36] Stephen, what about this?" And you go, [30:38] "Yeah, I'm going to make adjustment [30:39] there." And all of a sudden, we got it [30:40] to a 78% plan and we're still good. If [30:43] you come to me with a 20% plan now, I [30:46] can ask you three or four questions [30:47] before you say, "Hey, Jo, let me I'll be [30:48] back in a couple hours. I'm gonna go [30:49] reformulate this thing." And by the way, [30:51] all that's training you, right? All [30:53] those questions are training you. You [30:55] coming up with a plan is training for [30:56] you. Because if if I'm got people that [30:59] work for me and they can't come up with [31:00] a plan by themselves, I'm complete [31:02] failure as a leader. So, I'm going to [31:04] train you so that you can come up with [31:06] plans and I can look up and out. [31:11] takes a lot of patience, doesn't it? [31:14] Because you know, you know, in those [31:15] many of those situations that you're not [31:17] going to get from A to B as fast as you [31:19] possibly could have. [31:20] It's a investment in a long-term [31:23] efficiency because even though I might [31:25] have to invest a little bit more time [31:27] right now and I spent 10 minutes [31:29] explaining to you why this tactic would [31:31] be better than that tactic, even though [31:33] it's going to cost me 10 minutes right [31:34] now or maybe a half an hour, we look up [31:37] in 6 months and you're actually coming [31:38] up with better plans than me. [31:41] You know, I read throughout your books [31:43] you went from being that young teenager [31:45] who passed training to really like [31:47] leading the Navy Seals in many respects. [31:50] Well, leading an element of SEALs. Yeah, [31:54] that's um when you look back on that [31:58] accomplishment, [32:00] have you figured out what it is about [32:01] you in particular [32:04] that allowed you enabled you to do that? [32:07] Is that something? Is that Is there a [32:09] muscle you grew? [32:14] I was I'm a hard worker. [32:17] I, [32:19] you know, I I was never great at [32:22] anything like as a kid. I wasn't the [32:25] fastest. I wasn't the strongest. I [32:27] wasn't the smartest. [32:31] But I did I did know that I could work [32:35] hard. I had to work hard and I listened [32:38] to people. I didn't think I knew [32:40] everything. I I even sometimes I'll joke [32:42] about, yeah, you know, when you're young [32:43] and arrogant, even when I was young and [32:45] arrogant, like we all are when we're 23 [32:49] years old or 22 years old and you're [32:50] young, you think you know everything. [32:52] Even then, I always had that little like [32:54] you don't know everything. And I think [32:56] that humility paid a played a big role [33:00] in me being able to be successful [33:02] because I was never afraid to say, "Hey, [33:06] I'm not 100% sure what to do right now. [33:08] What do you guys think?" Or, "Hey, I [33:10] feel like I've reached the limitations [33:12] of my thought process. I need some [33:15] help." And so, I think that's one of the [33:19] main reasons that I was able to to to do [33:22] a good job to do to do a good job. When [33:25] I meet someone like you, I I wonder I [33:28] go, "This guy must have seen so many [33:29] things. So many things that the average [33:31] human being will absolutely never see, [33:34] you know, and I cuz you were you were [33:36] sent all around the world on some [33:38] absolutely incredible unimaginable [33:41] missions for for 20 20 years for for the [33:46] average person who has no idea what your [33:48] eyes have seen. [33:52] Can you paint me a picture of some of [33:54] those extremes? [33:58] Well, it's war. [34:01] So, [34:03] it's it's war. [34:06] It's [34:08] people being wounded, people being [34:10] killed in Iraq with the insurgents that [34:13] we were fighting. It's them [34:16] torturing people, mutilating their [34:19] bodies, raping [34:22] beheading people [34:28] horror. [34:36] But you know, it's interesting when when [34:39] I talk to other people, when I meet [34:42] people, I always think to myself, [34:46] what you're saying that you think when [34:49] you see me, I always think that when I [34:52] see other people because [34:56] other people, we don't know what they've [34:58] been through. You don't know what kind [35:00] of childhood they've had. You don't know [35:02] what kind of horrors they've seen. You [35:03] don't know what kind of abuse they've [35:05] suffered. you don't want to kind of you [35:07] don't know what kind of trials and [35:08] tribulations other people have faced. So [35:11] I I don't I I look at everyone and and [35:15] and also the trials and tribulation that [35:18] someone face someone faces [35:22] that that's profoundly difficult for [35:24] them regardless of what it was [35:27] regardless of if they were a a person [35:29] that you know got injured really bad. [35:32] they're when they were in high school, [35:34] they're 15 years old and they broke [35:36] their leg and they they they couldn't [35:38] play their sport anymore and now they're [35:41] 17, but that was a traumatic thing for [35:43] them. [35:45] And yeah, so when I when I look at other [35:48] people, when I talk to other people, I [35:49] always think everyone everyone every [35:51] human faces challenges and you don't [35:54] know what they've been through and they [35:56] they might have been through things that [35:57] are worse than what I've been through. [36:00] And I usually my assumption is people [36:03] have been through a lot of challenges [36:05] and [36:08] they they persevered through it and here [36:10] they are. So I'm going to give them the [36:12] benefit of the doubt. [36:17] But humans aren't supposed to be exposed [36:20] to those kinds of images. And I think if [36:23] you spoke to, I know a trauma [36:24] psychologist, they would they would [36:25] class a lot of those things that you've [36:26] seen as what they call like tort [36:28] traumas, like really really traumatic [36:30] events. How how does someone like you go [36:33] about processing those things to ensure [36:35] that that trauma doesn't show up in [36:38] later life? You know, we talk about [36:39] soldiers coming back from war suffering [36:40] with PTSD and things like that. What [36:43] have you done to sort of insulate [36:45] yourself or at least help you understand [36:47] some of some of the things you saw? [36:50] There's evil in the world. [36:52] when there's evil people in the world [36:54] and evil people are going to do heinous [36:57] and atrocious things [37:01] and that's a reality and that's always [37:04] been the reality [37:08] and the best thing that I can do is well [37:11] when I was in the military do my best to [37:13] to stop that kind of atrocious behavior [37:18] and [37:20] when and I'm out of the military. Try [37:22] not to try and [37:26] help people move away from those [37:30] thoughts. I mean, when you're talking [37:32] about like your my my family like my [37:34] family didn't [37:38] they my wife wasn't tracking what was [37:40] going on when I was overseas. She didn't [37:44] know what was happening [37:47] most of the time. you know, when my guys [37:49] got wounded or my guys got killed, she [37:52] knew. She went to their she went to the [37:54] hospital to visit them. She went to [37:56] their funerals, but I wasn't dragging [38:00] her down [38:02] the the [38:04] to the depths of human nature. [38:07] I took that and same with my kids. I [38:10] didn't share with them that these things [38:14] happen. So, and and that's so so I think [38:18] from my perspective, [38:20] you know, it's like the reality of the [38:22] world is yeah, there's evil people in [38:24] the world. [38:25] I accept that reality. I understand that [38:27] reality. There's also good people in the [38:30] world and there's people that do amazing [38:34] things. There's people that sacrifice [38:37] their lives for their friends [38:40] and that's part of humanity. [38:43] So I like to focus on that part of [38:47] humanity rather than [38:50] the dark side of humanity. But if you [38:53] really want to appreciate the [38:57] the light and the good, then you have to [38:59] recognize that there's darkness and [39:01] there's evil. [39:03] Was there a hardest day while you were [39:04] in the Navy Seals? Is there a day you [39:08] look back on and say that was the the [39:09] most sort of emotionally testing day? [39:12] Yeah. Losing guys in combat [39:20] and that stays with you? [39:23] Oh yeah. [39:25] Always. [39:29] I just can't imagine, [39:32] you know, I just can't I've never lost a [39:35] friend. I've got two older brothers. [39:38] I've never lost my brothers. I just [39:41] can't imagine. I can't imagine how [39:44] difficult it is to like go forward when [39:47] you've lost, you know, you refer to [39:49] these people as your brothers [39:57] and [39:59] I'm not unique. [40:02] And the guys we were over in the Battle [40:06] of Amati when we were over there, the [40:08] the Army and the Marine Corps, they were [40:10] losing guys every day. This is not [40:13] unique. I'm not unique. There's guys [40:15] that were in charge of units that lost [40:18] 10, 12, 15 guys. [40:21] And [40:23] it's not unique for human beings either [40:26] because even though you haven't lost any [40:28] friends, you haven't lost any of your [40:30] brothers, [40:32] you will. [40:34] This is part of life. [40:38] And so [40:41] this is part of life. [40:44] people have, you know, everyone's died [40:46] and in combat people have died and [40:51] people carried on [40:53] and I know that my friends that died, [40:57] they would not want me to sit around and [40:58] mourn and and and [41:02] break down and drink and and and pop [41:06] pills. They wouldn't want me to do that [41:08] at all. They'd want me to live. That's [41:10] what they would want. They would want me [41:12] to live. They want me to go out and make [41:13] things happen [41:15] and and drive on and enjoy and surf and [41:18] play guitar and do jiu-jitsu. That's [41:20] what they'd want me to do. 100%. 100%. [41:24] In fact, they would be disgusted [41:29] if what I did with the gift that they [41:31] gave me was piss it away. They'd be [41:35] disgusted. And I won't do that. Not Not [41:39] a chance. [41:41] I'm going to live like they would want [41:44] me to. [41:48] In those moments, [41:50] that's certainly what logic tells you. [41:53] But those moments, it's hard to be [41:54] logical in those moments, right? [41:59] Yeah. [42:04] I [42:05] ended up with some pattern recognition [42:08] on this whole scenario. [42:11] Unfortunately, because when you lose [42:15] friends over and over and over again, [42:17] you start to see what happens from an [42:21] emotional perspective, from a spiritual [42:24] perspective, from a physical [42:25] perspective. [42:27] And what I what I [42:31] began to recognize as a pattern is and [42:36] the way that I explain this to people [42:37] that go through loss like this is you're [42:42] going to have you're not going to be in [42:44] control of your emotions sometimes. So, [42:48] and since you're 31 years old, you've [42:51] had control pretty good control over [42:53] your emotions since you were 7 years old [42:55] or 8 years old. Occasionally you'd break [42:58] down. Occasionally you'd lose your [42:59] temper. But you've gotten more and more [43:01] in control the older you've got gotten. [43:04] So you're not used to not being in [43:07] control of your emotion. We as adults [43:10] are not used to losing control of our [43:13] emotions. So what's going to happen? You [43:15] lose one of your friends. You lose one [43:17] of your family members. You're going to [43:18] get hit with a wave waves of emotion [43:20] that you can't control. [43:22] And this sometimes [43:25] causes people to to [43:28] really overreact [43:31] and think that they're in this terrible [43:32] place cuz they think, "Oh my gosh, I've [43:34] been able to control my emotions for the [43:35] last 30 years and now I'm losing now I'm [43:37] I'm I can't control my emotions. There's [43:39] something wrong with me." Is what they [43:41] think. [43:43] And this is what I learned is that those [43:46] waves of emotion, [43:48] they're gonna they're gonna roll back [43:52] and you're gonna you're going to get [43:55] control again. You're going to take a [43:57] breath and then you're going to get hit [43:59] with another storm, but it's going to go [44:01] away. And you're going to get hit with [44:02] another storm, but it's not going to be [44:05] as strong. [44:07] And then it's going to go away. And [44:08] you're going to get hit with another [44:09] storm, but it's going to be a longer [44:11] period of time. and it's not going to be [44:14] as strong. [44:16] And what this is is this is your [44:20] this is you processing what happened. [44:23] And eventually you do get you regain [44:26] control of your emotions. And there's [44:27] still going to be times there's still [44:29] going to be times where you're going to [44:31] be 3 years, 5 years, 10 years down the [44:33] road, you're going to hit with a wave of [44:34] emotion and [44:37] you're going to be caught off guard. [44:39] It's going to catch you. I had a guy on [44:41] my podcast [44:43] that was in World War II, Korea, and [44:48] Vietnam. [44:50] And so we were we we talked about World [44:54] War II where he was, you know, a young [44:56] private soldier. And then he was a [44:58] little bit more senior when he was in [44:59] Korea. And then in Vietnam, he was a [45:01] battalion commander. So he's in charge [45:02] of 700 guys. [45:06] and we we were talking and I I I said [45:12] something along the lines of I I asked [45:14] him something about his the casualties [45:15] that he took in his battalion. And so [45:18] now this is you know he was in Vietnam [45:19] in I don't know 1967 or 1968 so it's [45:23] been 60 years [45:26] and I asked him about casualties that he [45:28] took and he got choked up. [45:32] Got choked up. lost control of his [45:34] emotions for a for a second. And when I [45:37] saw that, [45:40] I felt so relieved. [45:42] I felt so relieved because I thought, [45:44] "Oh, it's always going to be like this." [45:47] And that's okay. It's okay. It's okay. [45:51] It's normal. Lost your friends, lost [45:54] your brothers. [45:56] Is it Is it Is it wrong that you get [46:00] choked up when you talk about There's [46:01] nothing wrong with that. Here's a guy [46:02] that lost his lost lost some of his men [46:06] 60 years ago and he's getting choked up [46:08] right now. Why? Cuz he loved him. [46:11] Cuz he he wishes he could have brought [46:13] him through that conflict and he didn't [46:16] and he feels it and he lived a normal [46:18] life. Retired from the army, got follow [46:21] on jobs and had another career. [46:25] But he lost his friends, his brothers, [46:29] his men, and that hurts. And it's not [46:32] going to go away. And that's okay. [46:34] There's nothing wrong with you. Nothing [46:36] wrong with me. There's nothing wrong [46:38] with me. Do I get choked up sometimes? [46:41] Sure. Yeah. [46:43] Yeah. [46:45] I lost some of my best friends. [46:48] Does that hurt? Yep. [46:51] Do I wallow in that? No. [46:54] Do I dwell in those emotions? Nope. I [46:57] don't. And they wouldn't want me to. and [47:00] they'd be disappointed if I did. [47:06] I think it's really important because as [47:08] men we we don't we get conflicting [47:11] messages about emotion and how to [47:13] express it and what that looks like and [47:16] if there's weakness to certain emotions [47:18] or if you know but the it's the [47:21] psychology seems to be pretty clear that [47:22] the suppression of these emotions, the [47:24] trying to hide them, the total [47:26] compartmentalizing of them doesn't [47:28] actually make them goes go away. They [47:29] just appear somewhere else in a bottle [47:31] or in some kind of recreational drug or [47:33] somewhere else. So, and nor does [47:37] suppressing them isn't going to help. [47:39] And nor is letting them run your life. [47:42] So, [47:43] because you're sad now you're going to [47:45] make a bunch of bad decisions cuz you're [47:46] sad. No. No. It doesn't doesn't work [47:47] like that. Doesn't work like that. [47:50] You're sad. Okay. [47:53] You get emotional sometimes. Okay. Got [47:56] it. Now, get control of your emotions [47:58] and carry on with your life. And [48:00] sometimes you're going to get hit with [48:01] those waves, and that's okay. I I think [48:04] that's a big misconception [48:07] and sort of relates to what you're [48:08] saying. [48:10] Oh, I'm I'm having an emotional moment [48:13] right now. There's something wrong with [48:14] me. No, there's nothing wrong with you. [48:16] There's nothing wrong with you. The [48:18] other extreme is, oh, I'm letting my [48:19] emotions run my life and I'm making a [48:22] bunch of bad decisions and my excuse is, [48:25] well, you know, I lost some friends or I [48:26] had this traumatic experience happen to [48:28] me. That's why I'm doing that's just an [48:30] excuse and it's a very easy excuse. And [48:34] in society, the last thing I want to say [48:36] to you is, well, you can't act like [48:39] that. Oh, you lost one of your friends. [48:41] Hey, that doesn't mean you can make [48:43] excuse. You can't use that excuse. No, I [48:44] I go, [48:46] "Hey, man. Uh, okay." It's what I say, [48:49] right? I'm a polite person. I'm [48:51] empathetic person. You're sad. You're [48:54] making bad decisions. You're saying it's [48:55] cuz you lost your friend or you went [48:57] through this traumatic thing. And I go, [48:58] "Okay, I [49:01] how can I help?" Instead of saying, [49:03] "Hey, man. Yeah, guess what? It's time [49:06] to carry on." [49:09] Don't Don't dwell on the I I I've told a [49:12] thousand veterans this. Remember, don't [49:14] dwell. [49:16] Remember, remember your friends. Don't [49:18] dwell in the past, though. [49:20] Remember, don't dwell. That's what we [49:23] have to do. [49:25] And the emotions. Yes. [49:28] Embrace those emotions, but don't let [49:31] those emotions embrace you. [49:33] Don't let those emotions run your life. [49:35] There is there is a cuz people say, "Oh, [49:39] uh, suppressing your emotions is bad." [49:42] Okay, so I'm just going to let all these [49:43] emotions out and they're going to run my [49:45] life now. No, no, no. At a certain [49:48] point, you say, "Okay, my emotions are [49:50] now leading me down the wrong path. [49:53] I'm in control. [49:56] I'm not going to allow my emotions to [49:57] make my decisions." They're in the [49:59] calculus. I'm not saying take your [50:02] emotions out of the calculus, but they [50:04] have to be one component of your [50:05] calculus, not the whole equation. The [50:09] equation has to include emotions. Yes. [50:12] Logic, yes. Future, yes. Goals, yes. [50:18] Family, yes. Work, yes. Finances, yes. [50:21] All those things have to be in the [50:22] calculus. Emotions has to be a part of [50:25] the that calculus. You can't pull them [50:27] out of there or they'll bite you. But [50:29] you can't make them the overwhelming [50:32] denominator of everything that you do or [50:34] it's going to be problematic. [50:37] I heard you tell a story which I thought [50:38] was really inspiring. Actually, I was [50:39] just listening to it before you came [50:40] about a friend of yours who was going [50:42] through hardship in their life and you [50:44] your advice for them was to start [50:47] walking. [50:48] Yeah. [50:50] Yeah. It was a guy who was Yeah. going [50:54] through hardship with his job, with his [50:57] marriage, and the marriage was coming to [51:00] an end. The job was not was going to [51:03] come to an end as well. And he's out [51:05] there and doesn't know what to do. [51:09] And the analogy that I set up for him is [51:12] if I'm in the woods, which is where you [51:14] are right now, you're in the woods and [51:16] you don't know where to go cuz the [51:18] wife's not there anymore. The job's not [51:20] there anymore. You don't know where to [51:21] go right now. So if you're in the woods [51:24] and you don't know where to go, [51:26] start walking. [51:28] You got to start walking because the [51:30] perspective is not going to change. You [51:32] have to start moving forward. You have [51:34] to t start start taking steps in order [51:36] to improve your vision, improve your [51:39] perspective, change your perspective, [51:41] make some kind of progress. And worst [51:42] case scenario, you figure out that you [51:44] walked the wrong direction. Okay, now [51:46] you can go walk in the other direction. [51:48] And that's that's going to be fine. But [51:50] standing there lost and not doing [51:52] anything is just waiting to die, waiting [51:54] to starve to death. [51:57] Don't let that happen. [52:01] It's overthinking. It's that anxiety. [52:03] It's that ruminating that I think I've I [52:05] mean I've done it multiple times in my [52:07] life when the solution is I can't get to [52:10] certainty on the problem. So I I try and [52:13] think my way out of the problem which [52:15] only seems to cause more harm than good. [52:18] Yeah. There's definitely a level of [52:23] risk conditioning that you get inside [52:25] the military because there's you're not [52:28] you're just not going to be certain [52:28] about anything. And you have to be able [52:31] to say, "Yep, I'm going to make this [52:33] decision right now and here's what we're [52:34] going to do. I'm going to make the [52:35] smallest decision possible. Going to [52:37] take the smallest step possible, but I'm [52:39] going to take a step because I'm never [52:43] going to know everything. And if I take [52:45] the time to try and know everything, [52:46] everything will have changed by the time [52:48] I know it. So, I'm going to absolutely [52:52] take that step and take that action. [52:53] I mean, that's a metaphor for life as [52:55] well, cuz there's a lot of people trying [52:56] to get to 100% certainty whether to [52:58] leave the job or the marriage or the [52:59] start the business and they're [53:01] struggling maybe at 60 70 maybe 80 90% [53:04] certainty. But for some reason, we seem [53:06] to need, [53:07] you know, certainty. [53:08] That's why I use the what I what I call [53:10] the iterative decision-m process. I'm [53:12] only to take small steps. So, [53:16] am I trying to leave my I don't like my [53:18] job. I'm miserable there. Okay. Does [53:19] that mean I walk in tomorrow morning and [53:21] say, "Hey, boss, I hate it here. I [53:22] quit." No, it doesn't mean that. It [53:24] means I say, "Okay, I'm going to start [53:26] putting my resume together. [53:28] I'm going to start checking out [53:30] LinkedIn. [53:32] I'm going to start seeing what [53:33] qualifications I might need that could [53:36] improve my ability to get a new job. [53:39] Once I've done that, I'm going to start [53:41] sending out my resume. I'm going to [53:42] start building some relationships with [53:44] some people. And now I look up and I get [53:48] another job offer. So, I didn't make a [53:51] crazy short-termed emotional decision. I [53:56] made a slow, progressive, iterative [53:59] decision-making process that led me from [54:02] a situation that I didn't like to an [54:03] opportunity that seems more promising. [54:06] And this could apply to just about [54:08] anything. [54:08] I see this a lot in businesses. I see [54:10] that the the real cost in business. I [54:13] spent about 10 years working in [54:14] marketing. So I was my job was to work [54:16] with the CMO and the CEO helping them to [54:19] try and make certain marketing [54:20] decisions. You know that invest in this [54:22] platform, do this thing, whatever. And I [54:24] came to learn over time that the biggest [54:27] cost wasn't making a bad decision. It [54:30] was the time you waste the nine months [54:32] waiting for Joanna to get back from [54:34] annual leave so we can have a meeting [54:35] with Dave and procurement to get the [54:37] invoice signed off versus the CEOs that [54:40] I worked with that said, "Let's do it [54:41] now." When the decision was quite [54:43] clearly [54:45] low cost, relatively low cost or [54:47] reversible. [54:48] Mhm. [54:49] It was always speed that seemed to to [54:50] pretty much speed that seemed to win out [54:52] because most decisions are either [54:54] reversible or actually more [54:56] inconsequential than you think. Very few [54:58] decisions are final. Very few decisions [55:01] are final. Even something like buying a [55:03] house. Should I buy this house? Oh my [55:06] gosh, it seems if you buy a house and [55:09] you decide it wasn't the house that you [55:11] wanted, you sell the house. [55:13] It's like now look, could you get caught [55:15] in a bad market and could Yeah, that can [55:17] absolutely happen. So, you need to be [55:18] smart about your decisions that you [55:19] make. But most things are not as final [55:24] as they seem. Most things you're going [55:26] to be able to and will you look you paid [55:28] the realer so you lost 3% there. You [55:30] paid the other realer, you lost 3%. You [55:32] had to pay the mortgage fees. So you're [55:33] going to lose some money, but it's not [55:35] like you buy a million- dollar house and [55:37] then you decide you don't like it. You [55:38] don't lose a million dollars. You lose [55:40] 80 grand or whatever, you know, and it's [55:43] okay. Two years, three years, you get it [55:44] back. What? So people think of decisions [55:47] as being permanent. Yeah. If you're if [55:49] you're in marketing and you approach me [55:51] and you say, "Hey, listen, CEO, there's [55:54] a new marketing [55:58] opportunity that we'd like to get you [55:59] into." And I go, "How much did it cost?" [56:01] And you say, "A million dollars." And I [56:02] say, "Oh, that's a lot of money. Can is [56:05] there can I try it for a shorter period [56:07] of time?" "Well, yeah, but you won't get [56:09] as much for your for you won't get as [56:11] much volume." And I say, "Okay, well, [56:13] still I don't want to invest that much [56:15] cuz I'm not sure about it. Let's test it [56:17] and see where it goes." and you say, [56:18] "Okay, we'll try that. Here's 100 grand [56:20] and let's see what feedback we get, and [56:22] if it's good, it's good. If it's not, we [56:24] go somewhere else." Do you think you're [56:26] conditioned in some ways to have this [56:28] sort of um bias towards taking action? [56:31] Because if your background in the seals, [56:34] there was often some kind of time [56:35] urgency. There was some factor that's [56:37] causing you to have to take a decision. [56:39] Is that [56:40] Yeah. [56:41] In business and life, there's not [56:42] there's not like we're going to lose [56:43] this or someone's going to die or [56:44] there's going to be an attack. In the [56:47] business world, the consequences are [56:49] prolonged and usually not as extreme. [56:52] So, you can get away with less action [56:56] even though eventually it will catch up [56:58] with you. And you've got an example of [56:59] that in your book. And the the [57:01] father-son deal and one of them takes 9 [57:03] months to execute and the other one [57:05] executes immediately. And the one that [57:07] executes immediately is successful. The [57:09] one that doesn't takes nine months to [57:11] execute fails. So it eventually inaction [57:15] will cost you in and you say [57:19] interestingly that oh in the SEAL teams [57:21] you must be conditioned to do this. I [57:22] had to condition people to take action [57:25] even in the SEAL teams. Even a young [57:27] SEAL leader who you would think would be [57:30] by nature aggressive and an action [57:32] taker. You put them in a pressure [57:34] situation where there's not a ton of [57:36] information and they need to make a [57:37] decision. They don't want to act either. [57:39] So, one of the things that I would teach [57:41] was that their default mode was to be [57:43] aggressive. Their default mode was to [57:45] take action. I would teach that. Same [57:47] thing we just discussed. I wouldn't say, [57:48] "Hey, look, that means you have to take [57:50] action." But your default setting should [57:52] be I'm going to do something. Cuz I'd [57:53] have a young SEAL officer and there'd be [57:55] some training mission and there'd be a [57:57] problem in a building and there'd be a [57:59] bunch of paintball flying around in [58:00] there and he wouldn't want to go solve [58:03] that problem. he'd back away from that [58:05] problem and I would have to go like push [58:08] him in the back and say, "You see that [58:10] problem over there? You got to go solve [58:11] that problem." It's not going to go [58:12] away. You got to be aggressive. That's [58:14] got to be your default mode is to take [58:15] action and make things happen because [58:18] most human instinct is to wait. Most [58:22] human instinct is to hesitate. Most [58:24] human instinct is to let things go [58:27] longer and stick with the status quo. [58:30] that seems to be on the on the front the [58:35] lowest risk [58:37] in the situation is to not do anything. [58:39] It usually appears to be the lowest [58:40] risk. But just like the example that you [58:42] gave in your book, it's it definitely [58:45] seems lower risk. Oh well, he wants [58:47] money, wants investment, new thing and I [58:49] don't know the lowest risk in that [58:50] situation is to not do anything. And [58:52] that's what many people do whether [58:54] they're in the SEAL teams or whether [58:55] they're in business. So to train people [58:57] to oh I need to take risk some level of [59:00] risk take action because in the long run [59:04] I say seven out of 10 seven out of 10 [59:07] times action is better than inaction 70% [59:10] of the time action there's definitely [59:11] times where you got to hesitate there's [59:13] definitely times where you got to hold [59:14] back there's definitely and that's the [59:16] other book you got there is called the [59:17] dichotomy of leadership because there's [59:19] times yes absolutely action [59:22] aggression there's also times the other [59:25] end of the spectrum was like, "Yep, [59:26] now's not the time to make a move." So, [59:29] it's it's definitely a dichotomy, but [59:33] the [59:35] to me 70% of the time, you better take [59:37] that action. That's got to be your [59:38] default mode. [59:40] I asked you what your your hardest day [59:42] in um the seals were and you said about [59:44] losing friends, what was what was your [59:45] proudest day? Is there a proudest day [59:47] where you go, do you know what? I I [59:50] really showed up in a in a way that I to [59:54] a standard that I held myself to. And [59:55] because I did, we accomplished something [59:58] great together [60:00] against the odds. There's a a multitude [60:03] of times where I was in Iraq. [60:09] I was in a detached moment in time, [60:13] you know, moving down a street, [60:16] sitting in a vehicle, [60:19] maneuvering, and I was and I was [60:21] watching my guys. [60:24] I could see my guys and I could see what [60:27] they were doing. [60:29] And I could see [60:36] one of the most beautiful things in the [60:37] world, which was guys that were [60:41] exceptional at their job, working [60:44] together as a team, maneuvering, [60:47] protecting each other, accomplishing the [60:49] mission. [60:52] And I got to see that many times. And [60:55] that's always had nothing to do with me. [60:58] Had to do with them. Had to do with [61:00] being able to see. [61:03] Look, were we perfect? No. But were [61:05] there moments [61:07] when you see an element cover and move [61:10] for each other [61:12] on the battlefield? [61:14] A simple plan with the right priorities [61:19] with decentralized command. Was there [61:21] times when I got to see all those [61:23] things? [61:25] Yes. And that without a doubt, those [61:28] were those are the best days. [61:31] Says something about, you know, and I [61:32] think I've kind of seen this throughout [61:33] your work is you have a real focus on [61:36] service, serving others as a path to I [61:40] guess fulfilling yourself. And we often [61:42] think I think many people think in life [61:44] that the path to self-fulfillment is to [61:46] serve yourself. But it seems like you've [61:48] kind of figured out that the path is by [61:50] serving others. [61:53] Yeah, I think that's [61:56] there's there's an underlying [61:59] core [62:00] component and belief and and innate DNA [62:04] in the SEAL teams [62:06] and that is you take care of your you [62:08] take care of your friends [62:10] and and that's not [62:13] in fact if you're the type of person [62:16] that doesn't take care of your friends, [62:17] you're not going to be a good seal. [62:20] you're not going to be a good seal if if [62:23] you put yourself before the team. Look, [62:26] you can be a great shot, you can be [62:28] strong, you can be fast, all those [62:30] things, but no one's going to really [62:31] want you in a platoon if you put [62:34] yourself above them. And people don't [62:37] really talk about that. No one ever told [62:39] me that, but you feel it. And if you're [62:43] if you're not self-aware, [62:47] you could you might slip into where [62:48] you're looking out for yourself and it's [62:50] a problem. And this happens in life, [62:51] too. You know, if you're if you it [62:54] happens in business where I see a guy [62:55] that he's taking care of himself [62:59] and and [63:01] you know, it's a smart guy and he [63:02] usually thinks he's pretty smart and [63:05] usually thinks he's a little bit smarter [63:06] than everybody else and usually thinks [63:07] that no one else is going to notice that [63:09] he's taking care of himself and [63:10] everybody sees it. Yeah. [63:12] And they dig themselves a grave. They [63:14] they dig themselves to graves and they [63:16] I'm not saying they don't get away with [63:18] it a little bit. Usually they get a [63:19] couple promotions, you know, they get to [63:20] a spot, but ultimately people don't want [63:23] to work with that person and so they [63:26] burn their relationships and they don't [63:29] do as well as they should. [63:32] And which is the the kind of nice thing [63:34] is if you take care of other people, [63:36] they'll take care of you. If you screw [63:39] other over other people, you're you're [63:41] gonna get screwed over. So, yeah, I [63:44] think there's a there's there's [63:46] definitely that underlying theme in the [63:48] SEAL teams. I've seen it now in [63:50] business. [63:51] And it is it is [63:54] it is going to if you if you look out [63:57] for yourself all the time, it's going to [64:00] catch up with you. I think everyone can [64:02] relate in this. If anyone's ever worked [64:04] in a business and they have colleagues, [64:07] I think everyone will be able to think [64:08] about the colleague who is always [64:10] seeking credit is um is always you know [64:15] being selfish in the way that they're [64:16] showing up and then they can also think [64:19] about the colleague who's the complete [64:20] opposite of that and it's often it's [64:22] funny it was making me think as you were [64:23] speaking that leadership is in fact in [64:25] many respects it's given it's not taken. [64:28] I.e. the person that's showing up for [64:29] other people but also delivering on [64:31] their own work is often kind of elected [64:34] the leader of the group. This is you [64:37] know we talk a lot in business I think [64:39] it was Steve Jobs that said the very [64:41] very best leaders in my organization [64:42] were those that were so good at their [64:44] job and they were never thinking about [64:45] like being a leader but that's the [64:47] reason they ultimately became it. [64:48] Yeah. Uh when people ask me and I got a [64:51] I got a book I wrote called leadership [64:52] strategy and tactics. It's like how to [64:53] get promoted. How do you get promoted? [64:55] Don't worry about getting promoted. to [64:57] focus on the team, focus on the mission, [64:59] focus on doing a good job, focus on [65:01] supporting your teammates. If you do [65:02] those things, you're going to get [65:03] promoted. And it it takes you'll have [65:06] this, you know, the dark part of your [65:09] personality will say, "Yeah, but they're [65:10] not going to notice. They need to see me [65:11] now." And you'll raise your hand and [65:14] say, "I want credit for that." And the [65:15] minute you do that, the minute you raise [65:17] your hand and say, "Give me credit," [65:19] your credit goes down. It's an [65:21] unfortunate truth. The minute you ask [65:23] for the accolades, your accolades are [65:26] decreased because every you're looking [65:30] out for yourself and everyone can smell [65:31] that and they don't like it. [65:34] Yeah. You're saying that the miss I'm [65:35] more important than the mission in some [65:36] respects. [65:37] Terrible. Terrible. [65:40] Did you have people like that in the in [65:42] the services when you were you were out [65:44] there? People that were clearly selfish [65:47] in the seals? [65:48] Absolutely. Y [65:49] how did you deal with that? [65:51] Well, if they were my boss, then I would [65:55] make them look good, [66:00] build a good great relationship with [66:01] them. If they were my peer, I'd make [66:04] them look good, build a great [66:05] relationship with them. If they worked [66:06] for me, I'd make them look good, build a [66:08] great relationship with them. [66:12] I think that as you you know some people [66:16] that have that kind of um [66:19] you know they've got some kind of [66:23] is it a defect? I think it's probably a [66:25] little bit of a defect but they they [66:26] just they just feel like they need that [66:28] recognition. They feel like they need to [66:30] take care of themselves. [66:32] And again going back to what I was [66:34] saying earlier, like what do they go [66:35] through in their life that makes them [66:37] think that they got to look out for [66:38] themselves? And it'd be kind of nice if [66:40] I could be a person that they go, "Man, [66:43] this guy's [66:45] treating me really good." [66:47] And maybe I could help them transform [66:53] from someone that doesn't trust that [66:54] they're going to get the recognition [66:55] that they need to, hey, there's good [66:57] people out there and I'd like to be a [66:59] part of this team. [67:01] Were you ever successful in that [67:02] transformation? [67:03] I was successful. I was also [67:04] unsuccessful. You know, some people are [67:07] some people they have that defect and [67:08] it's strong and they're going to look [67:10] out for themselves and there's very [67:12] little you can do about it and you you [67:14] know, you try try um but it's it's a [67:19] very the ego is a very very powerful [67:22] thing. I mean, you know, the eagle is so [67:23] powerful that there's countless cases of [67:27] military history where a human being got [67:32] himself and possibly his troops or his [67:36] troops killed [67:38] because of his ego. So, if you can die [67:42] because of your ego, you can absolutely [67:44] make some pretty dramatic mistakes in [67:47] the business world because of your ego. [67:49] And it happens all the time. It happens [67:50] all the time. [67:53] leaving [67:55] leaving the military. I have this quote [67:58] where you said, "So, I'd say if there's [68:00] anything that I struggle with now, it's [68:03] just that does anything else matter?" [68:06] And the answer is no. The answer is no. [68:08] Nothing else matters. Nothing else is [68:10] close. So, I have to deal with that. You [68:12] said that on the Tim Ferrris podcast [68:14] talking about your time um in the [68:17] services, but also more specifically the [68:19] battle of Ramadi. Ramardia. [68:20] Mhm. um as being the highlight of your [68:23] life. How does one go through sort of 20 [68:26] years of highintensity combat and all [68:30] that adrenaline and all of the you know [68:32] gosh it's harder to think of many [68:35] greater senses of like purpose and [68:37] fulfillment and mission and then [68:41] real life. [68:44] Yeah. [68:47] So, number one, as I mentioned earlier, [68:50] remember but don't dwell. And [68:54] have you seen the movie [68:56] Napoleon Dynamite? No, that's a bummer. [68:59] There's a character in the movie [69:00] Napoleon Dynamite. His name is Uncle [69:03] Rico. And Uncle Rico played football in [69:05] high school. And now Uncle Rico [69:08] uh lives in a van and sells cooking [69:12] wear. So he kind of peaked in high [69:14] school and he lives in the past. He's [69:18] always talking about state championships [69:20] and if he would have play had that extra [69:21] point and if coach would have put him [69:22] in, he's got he's living in the past. [69:25] And so [69:27] while that quote right there, [69:31] no doubt that you just read from me is [69:33] accurate. I mean [69:38] there there will not be I don't think [69:41] anything in my life that will have as [69:45] much intensity as much mission focus as [69:48] much meaning as much [69:52] as much opportunity as much loss like [69:55] that is combat is is like life but [69:58] amplified and intensified. So every [70:00] emotion that you have like you have an [70:02] emotion when you when you formulate a [70:05] new plan and when you sell a business or [70:07] buy a business you have emotions that's [70:09] like combat but it's amplified it's [70:11] intensified and it's it's a lot more so [70:15] the that quote that you read is true [70:18] nothing will compare to that it won't [70:23] but I don't want to be like Uncle Rico [70:25] living in the past talking about how [70:27] this is what it used to be like and if [70:29] Yeah, there's my big game. I don't want [70:31] to do that. I want to, as I said [70:33] earlier, I want to remember, but I don't [70:34] want to dwell on the past. [70:35] Has it ever crossed your mind to go back [70:38] in any capacity? [70:40] Oh, yeah. Of course. Yeah. Every time [70:43] like a every time a war breaks out [70:45] somewhere, you you you want to get your [70:47] get your knife out, sharpen it up, and [70:49] let's rock and roll. Of course, because [70:54] Yeah. Well, because of that quote right [70:56] there. like this is this is it. Like [70:59] that's that's it. I'm lucky that I got [71:01] to do what I got to do, you know? Like [71:04] that's a blessing. It's a it's the it's [71:08] what I wanted to do since I was a little [71:09] kid. I got to do it. And so if you asked [71:12] me if I got the chance to do it again, [71:14] would I? Yeah, I would 100%. [71:17] You could though, right? You could go be [71:19] involved in some capacity in the [71:21] Seals. Yeah, there's ways there's things [71:23] that I could do to, you know, like be a [71:25] guner again and all that, but there's [71:27] also it's also not the same. So, you [71:31] know, if I cuz I retired from the Navy [71:33] and and so I'm not in the military [71:36] anymore. I still work with the military. [71:38] I still train the military, but [71:44] to go and be a gunslinger again. Um, now [71:47] you're now you're doing something [71:48] different. Now you are a mercenary. Now [71:50] it's a different situation and [71:53] the that component that you talked about [71:56] of like mission [71:59] brotherhood [72:00] is not going to be the same for me and [72:02] and quite frankly I think that I [72:06] part of me [72:08] wants to [72:10] not sour [72:13] that memory and and all those memories. [72:16] I don't want to I don't want to, [72:19] you know, I don't I don't want to I [72:21] don't want to sour that memory. I I have [72:22] a beautiful beautiful memory and I don't [72:26] want to tarnish it with me chasing [72:30] around the past. [72:33] You know, when fighters, they retire [72:35] from fighting [72:37] and then they they just they they want [72:39] to go back, they do it again, and it's [72:40] just not the same. [72:41] Anderson Silva was like that for me. He [72:43] was Superman and then he went back a [72:45] couple of times and I didn't want to [72:46] watch him get beat up. It was like [72:48] Yeah. I that's how that's that's a I [72:51] feel like that. I feel like that. I [72:53] don't don't think I could rematch my my [72:55] Anderson Silva the Spider Championship [72:57] run. I don't think I could rematch that. [73:02] Discipline is freedom. It's the title of [73:04] your um your book here. Discipline [73:08] equals freedom. Now, that seems like [73:10] it's untrue because when people think of [73:13] discipline, they think of rigidity and [73:15] and taking away their freedom, having to [73:17] be disciplined. [73:19] Why is why does discipline equal [73:21] freedom? [73:25] Because the more discipline you have in [73:27] your life, the more freedom you will end [73:28] up with. [73:32] So if you lack the discipline to [73:37] exercise [73:39] and eat healthy, you will end up being [73:44] a slave to disease. [73:47] If you lack the discipline to work hard, [73:52] save your money, [73:54] you will end up a slave to finances. [73:59] If you lack the discipline to manage [74:03] your time correctly, you will end up [74:05] with no free time. [74:08] If you have [74:10] self-discipline, if you have the [74:12] discipline to save your money and work [74:15] hard and invest your money properly, if [74:17] you have the discipline to [74:21] manage your time correctly and not waste [74:23] a bunch of time, if you have the [74:25] discipline to exercise and eat healthy, [74:27] you will end up with freedom. [74:30] And it's I know it's a counterintuitive. [74:32] It's contrarian, [74:34] but [74:36] I've seen this over and over and over [74:39] again. If you want freedom in your life, [74:42] you have to have discipline. [74:47] There's going to be some kid listening [74:48] to this now. I always think about the [74:49] personas that are listening and they [74:51] are, you know, eating Doritos off their [74:53] belly. [74:54] Spit them out. [74:58] [Laughter] [75:02] Spit them out. Start now. Because if [75:04] you're a kid right now and you're eating [75:05] Doritos off your belly, I know they [75:08] taste good and there's some immediate [75:09] gratification, and I get that. But I'm [75:11] going to tell you, it starts right now, [75:14] throw that bag of Doritos away. Get rid [75:17] of it. Go do some push-ups. Go spend $12 [75:22] at the hardware store and hang up a [75:23] pull-up bar in your room and start doing [75:25] pull-ups. And if you can't do one [75:26] pull-up, hang on that bar. And you're [75:29] going to start to get a little bit [75:30] stronger. You're going to start to get a [75:31] little bit healthier. You're going to [75:33] start to get more focused. You're going [75:35] to start to become more resilient. And [75:38] you're going to start to be able to do a [75:39] pull-up. And you're going to start to [75:41] eat healthy all the time. And you're [75:44] going to start to understand the world [75:46] better. [75:47] And you're going to start to progress in [75:51] every aspect of your life. [75:54] And you'll see that if you have that [75:56] kind of discipline right now, [76:00] you're going to end up with freedom. [76:03] And if you don't have that kind of [76:04] discipline [76:06] and you keep eating those Doritos [76:09] and you don't work hard and you don't [76:12] exercise and you don't apply yourself, [76:17] you're going to end up [76:21] you're going to end up shackled. [76:24] You're going up shackled by a boss that [76:27] you don't like doing a job that you [76:29] don't like to do with [76:32] sicknesses and diseases that you don't [76:35] want. Relying on people that you can't [76:38] even count on [76:41] alone [76:44] and you don't have to. [76:49] But if you have discipline, [76:53] if you have discipline, you will attain [76:55] freedom. [77:01] And it starts with just spitting the [77:02] Doritos out. Starts with spitting the [77:04] Doritos out. Yes, indeed. [77:08] How do you guys manage your stress? This [77:10] month is stress awareness month and it's [77:13] a topic that I'm super passionate about [77:14] and we talk about a lot on this podcast. [77:16] I personally manage my stress by [77:18] prioritizing my health and wellbeing. [77:20] Going to the gym is my number one form [77:21] of therapy and I couldn't be without [77:24] those two things. As you guys know, [77:26] Whoop is a sponsor of this podcast and [77:27] I'm an investor in the company as well. [77:29] For those of you that don't know, Whoop [77:31] actually created a stress monitor within [77:33] this device. Not only does this help me [77:35] to identify periods of high stress in [77:36] real time throughout the day, but it [77:38] also provides me with the tools I need [77:40] to deal with stresses as they come up [77:42] throughout the day. And it's based on [77:44] scientifically backed breathing [77:46] exercises and research that's been [77:48] developed by leading neuroscientists. [77:50] It's a feature that has been [77:51] gamechanging for me and I highly [77:53] recommend. If you're someone that's [77:54] looking to manage your stress levels, [77:56] then head over to join.woop.com/ceo [78:01] where we'll give you 30 days risk-free [78:04] and zero commitment to try Whoop. Let me [78:06] know how you get on. One of the things [78:09] you do, which is I mean you you're super [78:10] famous for it, is this idea of waking up [78:12] early. Now, I'm not someone that wakes [78:14] up early. [78:15] I know you no alarm clock and you're [78:17] usually up by 11:00. I I [78:19] Well, I So, no meetings before 11:00. [78:21] Okay, got it. [78:21] So, I I stay up quite late. [78:23] Y [78:24] um [78:26] what's the best case you could give me [78:28] for changing that? [78:29] And do I need to change that? Cuz I what [78:31] I what I do is, you know, I flew into [78:32] LA. I'm jetlagged. I'm flying back in a [78:34] couple of days. I'm going to be [78:35] jetlagged when I land as well. So, what [78:37] I'm trying to do is just protect my [78:38] sleep at all costs because I've come to [78:40] learn that it's really the foundation of [78:42] my performance. So if I if I'm unslept [78:44] and I show up at work, the chance that [78:46] I'm not going to show up correctly in a [78:48] variety of ways, emotionally, [78:50] creatively, whatever, [78:52] is high. And that for me is the greatest [78:54] risk. [78:56] So I just in the last sort of year or [78:58] two of my life, I've just said, "Okay, [79:00] prioritize sleep." Because then [79:01] everything else seems to follow. But [79:03] when I heard that you wake up sometimes [79:04] at 4:45 or 4:30, like pretty much all [79:07] the time, and you I've literally seen [79:08] you on social media upload your your [79:10] alarm clock day after day after day, I [79:12] go, "Shit, maybe I should rethink." No, [79:16] I think if you're if you've got a system [79:19] that's working well for you and then I [79:21] wouldn't change anything, right? If you [79:23] feel like you're performing well, you're [79:26] physically healthy, you're getting all [79:27] the work done that you need to do, [79:29] you're a naturally more of a a late [79:32] night, late morning type person, I'd run [79:35] with it. It's [79:38] if you were telling me, "Yeah, sometimes [79:40] I get up, sometimes I don't. Sometimes I [79:41] work late, sometimes I don't. I'm not [79:43] don't work out every day. You know, [79:45] sometimes I feel groggy." If you were [79:46] telling me that kind of thing, I'd say, [79:47] "Okay, pick a time and start waking up [79:50] at that time every day. Doesn't have to [79:51] be 4:40. It could be 8:00, could be [79:53] 7:00, doesn't matter. Could be 11:00, [79:56] but try and go to bed around the same [79:57] time and try and wake up around the same [80:00] time. And that's going to be a great [80:02] foundation for everything that you're [80:04] doing. And I would say when you wake up [80:07] in the morning, do some kind of exercise [80:09] because I think that is very helpful in [80:13] getting your day started correctly. [80:16] What are your non-negotiables in your [80:18] life in terms of habits, routines, [80:20] disciplines? I wake up early and I work [80:23] out every day. That's that's kind of my [80:26] my that's that's that's those are the [80:28] minimum requirements [80:31] in my life. [80:33] Train jiu-jitsu. I I don't get to chain [80:36] train jiu-jitsu every single day. But if [80:38] I can train jiu-jitsu, I'm going to [80:40] train jiu-jitsu. I'm going to work out [80:41] every day. [80:44] If I can surf, I'm going to surf, you [80:46] know. Um I I obviously have to work [80:48] every day. I I work every day doing [80:51] something, you know. I've got a bunch of [80:53] different companies. I got to write [80:55] books, podcasts. So, I I work every day. [80:58] Are you ever undisiplined? [81:00] Oh, yeah. Yeah. [81:02] Yeah. Um uh chocolate chip cookies. [81:06] They're a they're a a discipline [81:09] lapse for me. Uh yeah. So, yeah, I'm I'm [81:14] not a cyborg. When people look at [81:16] someone like you that's, you know, done [81:17] all the things you've done. You've been [81:18] a a seal and you've you've written all [81:20] these books and started these companies [81:21] and actually the drink I'm drinking now [81:23] is one of your your products which is [81:24] the what's that in front of you? The [81:25] Yeah, it's a it's an energy drink called [81:27] Go. [81:27] Called Go. Um, delicious by the way. [81:29] Oh, thank you. [81:30] I think my mouth has been connected to [81:31] my brain during this interview, so I [81:33] think it's working. Um, I understand [81:35] there's misconceptions that people have [81:36] of me because they assume it's kind of [81:39] like the halo effect. We assume because [81:40] someone's done something well, they do [81:42] all things well. Um, but there are so [81:45] many things that I think would really [81:47] liberate people and make them inspired [81:50] if they could see how deficient I was in [81:52] so many things in my life, you know, [81:54] because they just assume that if you've [81:55] done one thing, well, you have a good [81:56] podcast, you have a you must be like, [81:58] you know, the perfect picture of what [82:00] are the big misconceptions generally, [82:02] moving away from this idea of [82:03] imperfection, but just generally about [82:06] Joo because you've you realize you've [82:08] become a bit of a character, right? you [82:12] know, like Navy Seal that comes with an [82:15] identity package. [82:16] Yeah. I think the biggest misconception [82:19] I think and it's it's it's not just me, [82:21] but it's really the military in general [82:23] is the misconception of this kind of [82:25] authoritarian and even [82:28] authoritarian [82:30] dictatorship from a leadership [82:31] perspective. And even when when we were [82:34] having this conversation, I said, "I'm [82:35] going to let I'm going to let my [82:36] subordinates plan." And you kind of had [82:38] a stunned look on your face like, "What [82:40] are you talking about? Why would you let [82:41] your subordinates plan? And so there's [82:44] an idea and a misconception that [82:48] the leader is going to stand up and bark [82:51] all the orders. So that's one [82:53] misconception. The another one is I look [82:56] like a Neanderthal and so people are [82:58] think I'm going to scream and yell at [82:59] everybody. And I I never yell at [83:01] anybody. You know, I I my business [83:04] partner, Leif Babin, who's worked with [83:06] me, who's in my task unit at at SEAL [83:09] Team 3 and deployed to Ramati with me [83:11] and we now we've written a couple books [83:14] together. We have a business together [83:16] and he was like my direct subordinate in [83:19] Ramani and dur during a workup and [83:23] you know like never yelled at him and he [83:26] likes to point out that he gave me [83:27] plenty of reasons to yell at him but [83:29] never yelled at him cuz what what good [83:30] is that? And by the way, if I have to [83:31] yell at somebody, what does that say? [83:34] That means if I have to yell at you to [83:35] get my point across as a leader, I've [83:37] made like 47 other mistakes. [83:40] My goal is I don't even have to say [83:42] anything. That's my goal as a leader. My [83:44] goal is I don't have to say a word and [83:45] you already know what to do and you make [83:47] it happen. And I look at you and give [83:49] you a thumbs up and say good job. That's [83:51] my goal. So I think the biggest [83:52] misconception is the idea of someone in [83:57] the military or myself being a [84:00] authoritarian leader being very [84:02] close-minded. Like you know I I got [84:05] asked a question the other day about you [84:07] know if you were if you were if if China [84:09] attacked Taiwan and you were taking [84:11] troops in there what would you be [84:12] focused on? And I said, I'd be focused [84:14] on keeping an open mind because if you [84:18] have a closed mind about what the [84:20] mission is, about how it's going to [84:21] happen, about what your troops are going [84:23] to do, about what the enem is going to [84:24] do, if you have a closed mind about [84:26] those things, [84:28] you're going to get caught off guard. [84:30] You have to have an open mind. You have [84:32] to be accepting of the information that [84:35] you're receiving. You have to be [84:37] accepting of the other ideas that other [84:39] people have. And if you have a closed [84:41] mind, you're going to fall apart. kind [84:43] of counterintuitive in some ways because [84:44] the reason people often think they've [84:46] been made the leader because they have [84:48] loads of the correct ideas. So I think [84:50] as as people often climb in life they go [84:52] well I've been right so much that [84:53] they've put me here as CEO so now I need [84:56] to defend my righteousness at all costs [84:59] even when I'm not you know sure cuz [85:01] that's a weakness. [85:01] Yeah. And you quoted Steve Jobs earlier [85:05] and I I think actually actually it's [85:07] from your book which was I don't hire [85:11] people so I can tell them what to do. I [85:13] hire good people so they can tell me [85:14] what to do. So yes uh in your lead in a [85:19] leadership position you should be [85:21] listening more than you should be [85:22] talking. [85:24] You were talking a second ago about [85:25] shouting and aggression. It made me as [85:28] you're saying it, I was thinking, you [85:29] know, there is a stereotype that a man [85:32] is aggressive and he shouts and all [85:34] those things. You know, there's a bit of [85:35] a stereotype there. I what I was [85:37] actually thinking is [85:39] it's never been so unclear what a man is [85:43] than it than in 2024 in the context of [85:46] how a man's men are show up. Are they [85:47] meant to be masculine or feminine or [85:49] somewhere in between or whatever? And [85:52] for many men, you are a man's man. you [85:56] know, when we think of Navy Seals, we go [85:58] men. [86:00] Do you know what I mean? So, I I was [86:02] wondering because it's it's never been [86:03] as clear, I think, what a man should be, [86:06] you know, when you're raising a kid [86:07] that's a man or when you're being a man [86:09] yourself. Um, what do you think a man [86:13] should be? [86:14] And I I want to give a bit more context [86:16] here. There's a lot of men struggling [86:18] right now. [86:19] There's a lot of men if you know I talk [86:21] about it a lot that if you look at the [86:22] stats around suicidality in the UK the [86:25] thing that's most likely to kill someone [86:26] between the age of like 18 and 40 is [86:28] themselves [86:28] for a man you know there's a so men are [86:31] clearly struggling in some capacity with [86:33] purpose or or meaning or something. So, [86:37] I almost feel like, you know, a lot of [86:39] these sort of toxic influences of what a [86:40] man should be have now emerged to offer [86:42] answers, but I doubt those toxic [86:44] influences. And I say there's got to be [86:46] another role model, another sort of [86:47] blueprint for what it is to show up as a [86:49] man. [86:50] Well, I was going to give you a real I [86:53] guess it would have been a real cheap [86:54] answer of uh I think it's Marcus [86:56] Aurelius's stop discussing what it is to [86:58] be a man and be one. I was going to I [87:00] was going to walk out of here with that [87:01] one and be like, pretty good question [87:03] avoidance there. Um, which but there's [87:06] some merit to that, right? Like and and [87:08] I was almost thinking like do do we [87:11] really not know do we really not know [87:15] what it is to be a good man? And and I [87:17] would go so far as to say to be a good [87:19] human being, right? Because when a few [87:23] years ago there was these there was [87:25] these discussions going around about [87:27] toxic masculinity, right? And you take [87:30] these traditional masculine traits and [87:32] people were saying this is toxic [87:34] masculinity and they're bad and I wrote [87:39] a couple articles about it. [87:43] If you take any trait of a human being [87:45] and you take it to an extreme, masculine [87:48] or feminine or otherwise, you take it to [87:50] an extreme, it's it's going to be a [87:52] problem. It doesn't matter what it is. [87:54] So, if you take even a really positive [87:56] trait like [87:58] generosity, if you're a a super generous [88:02] person, that's wonderful. Is it possible [88:04] to be too generous? Well, yes, it is. [88:06] Now, you're getting taken advantage of [88:07] and now you end up in an abusive [88:09] relationship. Like, there's all kinds of [88:11] problems that can happen. So, when we [88:13] talk about masculine traits and what's a [88:16] man, well, what are some of the [88:17] traditional masculine traits? Um, to be [88:20] competitive. [88:21] Now, is it bad to be hyper competitive [88:26] where you [88:28] screw people over and you hurt your [88:31] health because you want to win in this [88:33] particular category? Is that bad? Yes, [88:34] it is. Does that mean we have people [88:38] that are not competitive at all and they [88:39] don't care if they win or lose? No, [88:40] that's not good either. So, that's [88:43] that's one trait. What's another good [88:45] masc aggression? [88:47] Aggression is a masculine trait. Is it [88:50] good if I'm walking into a restaurant [88:53] pushing the hostess out of my way? Of [88:56] course. That's terrible. That's [88:57] terrible. Is it good if you and I are [89:00] working together and I say, "Hey, shut [89:02] up and do what I said." Is that good? [89:03] No, it's not good. [89:05] So, can you take aggression too far? [89:08] Yes, you absolutely can. Can you get to [89:10] a point where you're not even asserting [89:12] yourself at all and you're getting W? [89:13] Yes, you can. Is that good? No, that's [89:16] not good either. [89:18] So, there's a bunch of traits that we [89:20] could run through that are considered [89:23] traditional masculine traits. And if you [89:24] take any of those traits and you take [89:25] them to an extreme, they're going to be [89:27] bad. Stoicism, right? Being stoic, being [89:29] unemotional. Is it is it good to have no [89:32] emotions whatsoever? No. That's called a [89:34] sociopath, right? Is that good? No. Is [89:38] it good, like I was talking about [89:39] earlier, to let your emotions run your [89:42] life and make your decisions based on [89:44] your emotions? No. That's not good [89:45] either. What do we want to be as a as a [89:47] human, as a man? Want to be balanced. [89:50] Want to be a want to be balanced. You [89:52] don't want to be extreme in any [89:56] direction. Even when you asked me like, [89:57] "Oh, Jo, what are you undisiplined on?" [90:00] I told you chocolate chip cookies. I [90:01] could have also said, "Uh, yeah, [90:03] sometimes I like to [90:06] eat uh mint chocolate chip milkshakes. [90:09] Sometimes I get lazy to work out. I'm [90:11] like, you know what? I freaking warmed [90:12] up and this sucks and I'm I'm leaving." [90:15] Uh, sometimes I'm supposed to I was [90:16] going to write something and now I [90:18] didn't write anything. I was supposed to [90:19] write a thousand words today. I didn't [90:20] write any. And guess what? I didn't [90:20] write any tomorrow. I I'm a slacker. So [90:24] if I was so disciplined that, you know, [90:26] my wife was like, "Hey, I'd like to go [90:27] out for dinner." I was like, "No, I [90:28] still got to write my thousand words." [90:30] Is that good? No, it's not good. So any [90:33] any characteristic, if we take it to [90:36] extreme, it's going to be a problem. And [90:38] so we as people should be balanced. And [90:42] I think [90:44] what we need to be attuned to is it's [90:47] it's much easier to be extreme. It's [90:50] it's much easier to be extreme. It's [90:52] it's it's much easier to say, "Oh, [90:55] no emotions. Cool." And turn them off. [90:58] That's easier than or or total emotion [91:02] mayhem. That's easier. It's harder to [91:04] find balance. It's harder to find [91:07] balance in business. It's harder to find [91:08] balance in life. It's hard to find [91:10] balance. And what we have to do is we [91:11] have to be attuned to the the feedback [91:14] that we're getting. [91:16] We have to be attuned to the feedback [91:18] that we're getting. So if we're talking [91:20] to our wife and she says you're not [91:23] going to be home for dinner again [91:24] tonight for the ninth night in a row [91:26] that you're going to stay late at work, [91:28] okay, you need to be paying attention [91:31] enough to say, "Oh yeah, guess what? I'm [91:33] a little too focused on work right now." [91:36] And then the other end of that spectrum [91:38] is my boss says, "Hey, Jo, wait. You're [91:40] leaving early again? Well, you know, [91:42] it's wrestling season. My my daughter's [91:43] got a wrestling match, so I'm I'm going [91:45] to leave." O, okay. I need to be attuned [91:47] enough to say, "Yeah, if I focus 100% on [91:51] my job, I'm going to lose my family. If [91:53] I focus 100% on my family, I'm going to [91:55] lose my job." We as humans are supposed [91:57] to be balanced. And by the way, there's [91:59] going to be some things that we don't [92:00] control. Somebody asked me the other [92:02] day, [92:03] "What did I learn [92:05] about myself [92:08] from the highs and lows of my life? The [92:12] highest point of my life and the lowest [92:13] point of my life. What did I learn about [92:15] myself?" [92:18] And I said, I learned that I don't let [92:20] the highs and the lows affect me too [92:23] much [92:24] because we're going to have wins, we're [92:27] going to have losses. [92:29] We're going to have successes, we're [92:31] going to have failures, we're going to [92:33] have good nights, we're going to have [92:34] bad nights, we're going to have good [92:36] relationships, we're going to have bad [92:37] relationships, we're gonna have good [92:38] ideas and bad ideas. We're going to make [92:40] money, we're going to lose money. All [92:42] these things are going to happen. [92:44] And if you oscillate emotionally [92:48] up and down drastically, it's going to [92:50] be problematic. [92:53] So finding a good, stable, centered way [92:57] to be [92:59] and look at the world and take [93:04] everything that you see with a little [93:06] bit of a grain of salt and don't get [93:10] swayed [93:12] too drastically. in one direction or the [93:14] other, you're going to be okay. [93:18] And if I was to try and sum up some of [93:22] this idea about being a man or being a [93:25] good human, it's like those books. I [93:28] wrote a book called Extreme Ownership. [93:30] That number one, take responsibility for [93:32] what you're doing. Take take ownership [93:33] of your world. Take ownership of your [93:35] life. There's number one. Number two, [93:36] the second book, Dichotomy of [93:38] Leadership. Be balanced. [93:41] Be balanced. [93:43] Don't be extreme. Extreme. Look, do you [93:46] have to sometimes get out there in the [93:48] in the fringes a little bit? [93:49] Occasionally, you probably had some [93:52] business situations where you're like, [93:53] "All right, I got to let go half of my [93:55] staff right now. That's an extreme move, [93:56] but that's how we're going to start." Do [93:57] you have to do that sometimes? Yes, you [93:58] do. But don't let that be where you [94:00] live. Live in the center. Live in a [94:03] stable area. And then finally, [94:04] discipline equals freedom. Couple of [94:07] words you use throughout this [94:08] conversation make me want to add some [94:10] things to that list of what it takes to [94:13] be a maybe not a good man but at least a [94:15] happy and fulfilled man. One of the [94:16] words you used is brotherhood. And I was [94:18] thinking about all the things you got [94:19] from your time in the seals and it's [94:21] almost a bit of like a microcosm of what [94:23] I think a lot of men are looking for. [94:25] You know that sense of purpose that [94:27] brotherhood and they find it these days [94:28] in like video games and stuff right [94:30] which I video games I've got no, you [94:32] know, I cost no judgment on people that [94:34] play video games. I've played video [94:35] games my whole life, but there's a it [94:37] seems like there's a reason we're [94:38] getting like increasingly addicted to [94:40] these video games cuz they're giving us [94:41] something that we're searching for in [94:44] real life and not getting. You use the [94:46] words brotherhood, purpose. These are [94:49] things that the SEALs clearly have in [94:52] huge huge amounts. Is there anything [94:53] else that you'd add to that list of what [94:55] it takes to feel fulfilled? [94:57] Yeah, jiu-jitsu. [95:00] It's it almost says become a joke [95:02] amongst [95:04] me, my friends, people that listen to me [95:06] is you got some kind of a problem in the [95:08] world. You got some kind of problem in [95:09] your life, go train jiu-jitsu. There's a [95:11] reason why I say that. Cuz the things [95:13] that you just mentioned, discipline. [95:15] Guess what you need to go train [95:16] jiu-jitsu when you're tired and you [95:17] don't feel like it? Discipline. Guess [95:19] how you feel when you're done? You feel [95:20] awesome. You get a bunch of dopamine. [95:22] Guess who you're there with? A bunch of [95:25] dudes that you can relate to. And guess [95:28] what you're going to do together? You're [95:29] going to struggle. You're going to go [95:31] through some some [95:34] hardship together. You're going to [95:36] sweat. You're going to choke. You're [95:38] going to get your arm broken. Like these [95:40] things are going to happen. Not going to [95:42] get your arm broken, but you may. But [95:44] you're going to you're going to be with [95:46] a little brotherhood. And by the way, [95:50] women train jiu-jitsu, too. My daughters [95:52] all train jiu-jitsu. It's all good. It's [95:55] all good. So yeah, jiu-jitsu is one way. [95:59] Now look, could you go to the rock [96:00] climbing gym? Yes, you could. Could you [96:01] go to the CrossFit gym? Yes, you could. [96:03] Could you go to the to the Yeah, the [96:06] soccer field, football field, whatever. [96:08] Yeah, you can do that stuff. So yeah, go [96:09] do that stuff. Go do that stuff. That's [96:12] shared suffering together with a group [96:15] on a regular basis, whether you want to [96:17] or not. That's some that's those are all [96:22] little components of being in the [96:23] military or being in the SEAL teams. [96:25] That's what it is. That's what you're [96:27] doing. [96:29] What does what does a SEAL platoon do? [96:30] They train to get ready for go to war. [96:32] How do they do that? They go to the [96:33] desert. They carry their guns. They run [96:36] through little choreographed moves. They [96:38] get hot. They carry weight. It's [96:40] suffering. It's just shared suffering [96:42] and they're working together and they're [96:43] learning skills. That's what you're [96:45] doing in a jiu-jitsu gym. That's what [96:46] you're doing on the soccer field. So, go [96:48] out and do those things with other human [96:50] beings and it's going to make it's going [96:52] to make things better for sure. It made [96:54] me think of business as well. [96:55] Business should be that way. If you if [96:59] you're in an organization, [97:01] you're doing the exact same thing, [97:03] right? We've got a problem. We need to [97:04] solve it. We've got to allocate [97:06] resources. We got to come in late [97:07] tonight. We got to make this thing [97:09] happen. We got an emergency. Like, [97:10] that's what a business is, too. That's [97:12] the way it should be. It should be. [97:13] We're working together to solve [97:14] problems. And when we're successful, we [97:17] get rewarded for that. So, yes, this is [97:20] called human interaction. [97:22] I'm sorry that it looks like war is the [97:25] best way to do it. It's not. I would [97:28] much rather people start a business and [97:30] create a product and and and create [97:34] jobs. I would much rather people do [97:36] that. And you can find that same kind of [97:38] camaraderie [97:40] in business. In fact, it's interesting. [97:41] You know, I I have a consulting business [97:43] and so we work with companies and [97:44] companies that went through the 2008 [97:48] economic downfall, those they're so [97:51] bonded cuz they went through this [97:52] traumatic experience together. Companies [97:55] that that kind of did well out of the [97:58] gate, they're not people are leaving and [98:00] people are but companies that went [98:01] through some trauma together, they stick [98:03] together. So yeah, if you frame things [98:07] right in your life, if you frame things, [98:11] if you frame a business challenge as an [98:14] opportunity to build a stronger team, [98:18] if you if you frame a personal challenge [98:22] as an opportunity to overcome and [98:24] improve yourself, [98:26] these things that seem so horrible are [98:30] actually [98:32] very positive components. of your [98:35] existence and they're going to make you [98:37] better. [98:38] As you said that, I thought, damn, I [98:40] should take all of my teams. We should [98:41] go do like a survival week. [98:43] We have uh we we run a program like that [98:46] at Eson Front where we teach we teach [98:50] people like some basic tactics and we [98:51] have these high-speed laser tag guns and [98:54] we send them out on missions and there's [98:55] explosions and there's gunfire and [98:57] there's role players that are screaming [98:59] and yelling and it's it's mayhem. And [99:01] those teams that go through that, they [99:03] bond. They also learn how to make [99:05] decisions under pressure. They also [99:06] learn how to detach. They also learn the [99:08] fundamental principles of combat [99:09] leadership that you can apply not just [99:11] to the battlefield, but you can apply to [99:12] business and you can apply to your life [99:14] as well. So yes, is that helpful? It [99:17] absolutely is. Struggle sucks. [99:22] Depends on how you frame it, [99:26] right? Depends on how you frame it. [99:30] Cuz I'm thinking about you stood at the [99:32] beach at the, you know, and they say, [99:33] "Walk out, Jo. Link arms and walk out." [99:36] You describe that as sucking. [99:38] Yep. [99:40] But what you're also saying is there's [99:41] huge value in [99:44] things that suck. On the the other side [99:46] of something that sucks is something [99:47] worth cherishing. [99:49] I would say not just huge value, but the [99:52] value. [99:54] It's the value. [99:57] You want to know if you're a you were [99:59] talking about young men that might not [100:00] have any direction right now. Go do [100:03] something that's hard. [100:05] Go try and accomplish something that's [100:07] hard. You may win. You may lose. You may [100:09] succeed. You may fail. I'll tell you [100:11] what, you'll be better. [100:14] If you avoid those things that are hard, [100:17] if you don't accept that challenge, if [100:19] you don't step up and step into that [100:21] cold water and you sit on your couch and [100:24] eat Doritos, [100:28] I I I can tell you this is not a good [100:30] move. This is not a good move. [100:33] Don't do that. Don't do that. Just get [100:36] up, move towards that challenge. [100:38] Whatever that challenge is, move towards [100:41] that challenge and go attack it. [100:44] And you may be successful and you may [100:46] not be successful, but you will be [100:48] better. [100:50] And the next challenge you're going to [100:52] be more prepared for. [100:55] And the next challenge after that you're [100:56] going to be even more prepared for. [100:59] And you're going to fail. And you're [101:01] going to fail. And you're going to fail. [101:03] And you're going to fail. And then [101:06] you're going to win. [101:12] And that's life. [101:16] Life without those challenges. [101:20] It's existence. [101:23] Don't just exist. [101:26] Go live. [101:31] You used the word balance a second ago [101:33] and um from reading through your story [101:36] it appears that when you were in the [101:37] seals you didn't have a whole lot of [101:40] work life balance in whatever way people [101:42] will define work life balance and [101:44] talking specifically here about your [101:46] relationships your family your wife [101:50] I'm right in saying that you were out of [101:51] balance at through that season of life [101:53] in terms of you know yes I was out of [101:58] balance [101:59] I was out of balance. [102:04] I was out of balance, [102:07] but [102:09] the ship was still moving in the right [102:12] direction. [102:13] So, what does that mean? That means that [102:15] my wife [102:17] picked up the slack. [102:20] That's what she did. [102:22] So, I was out of balance. She recognized [102:24] it. She recognized that I had a job [102:30] and that that job was important. She [102:32] recognized that [102:35] I was going to war. I was taking I was [102:37] taking guys to war [102:41] my decisions [102:45] could mean the lives of these guys, the [102:47] deaths of these guys. My wife understood [102:50] that. [102:54] My wife understood that what I needed to [102:56] focus on at that time was making sure [102:59] that my guys and me were prepared for [103:02] war. [103:04] That has to be the focus. That has to be [103:07] the focus. [103:09] To not focus on that means I might not [103:11] be coming home. Means some of those guys [103:13] not might not be coming home. [103:15] She understood that. She knew that. [103:19] She stepped up. She I was out of [103:21] balance. [103:23] She was in balance. She pulled the [103:26] family unit into balance. [103:30] And And [103:32] I was I treated my wife like a princess. [103:36] My I mean I never I never I mean I gave [103:39] my wife everything except for time. I [103:43] could not always give her the time that [103:44] she deserved. [103:46] She never complained about it one time. [103:57] That's legit. [104:06] She knew. [104:17] She knew that and she understood it. [104:20] It's a team. [104:23] First law of combat leadership is cover [104:25] and move. We work together as a team. [104:29] While I was doing my job, while I was [104:34] serving the country, [104:37] she covered for me [104:40] where I couldn't deliver on the home [104:42] front. [104:45] With three kids and then four kids, she [104:48] covered the finances, the water heater [104:51] that's broken, the car tire that needs [104:54] changing. She did all that stuff. [104:58] I can see the emotion in your face when [104:59] you say that. [105:01] Where does that come from? [105:03] Where is that emotion? [105:08] That's appreciation. [105:15] It's appreciation. It's like [105:19] I'm gone and she's there. She doesn't [105:23] know what's going to happen to me. [105:25] Doesn't know if I'm coming home. [105:27] She got three freaking kids running [105:29] around. [105:30] Like, and this is my wife. Guess what? [105:33] There's hundreds of thousands of [105:37] military wives that did the same thing. [105:40] And spouses as well, cuz there's there's [105:42] guys that are married to females that go [105:44] on deployment as well, [105:46] that hold the line and and do the job on [105:50] the home front. [105:54] And you know, they they don't they don't [105:56] get the appreciation, the outward [105:58] appreciation, the recognition that the [106:01] people that are in the military get, but [106:04] they deserve it. [106:08] Do you think you could ever express the [106:10] gratitude you have for for her in words? [106:14] Do you think do you think it's possible [106:16] for her to know how much you appreciate [106:19] her for holding the line and for [106:21] covering you? [106:23] Do I think I could express it [106:27] in words? [106:28] Probably not. Does she know? [106:32] Yes, she does. [106:35] Jocker, we have a closing tradition on [106:37] this podcast where the last guest leaves [106:38] a question for the next guest, not [106:39] knowing who they're leaving it for. [106:40] Mhm. [106:41] They leave it in this book. [106:43] Question that's been left for you. [106:46] If you could bring someone back who's no [106:48] longer with us and have a conversation [106:51] with them, who would it be and what [106:53] would that conversation entail? [107:02] Well, [107:05] I'd bring back Mark Lee, Mikey Monsour, [107:09] and Ryan Job. [107:16] And I tell him, "Thank you. [107:33] Thank you. [107:41] What would you be thanking them for? [107:47] Everything. [107:57] Okay. Thank you. [107:59] Thank you for I mean the list is quite [108:03] ex extensive but thank you for putting [108:06] your life on the line to make the world [108:08] a better place. That's um I think a a [108:10] level of gratitude and appreciation that [108:12] we can't really express um in words to [108:15] people like you that put your lives on [108:17] the line and sometimes don't come back [108:19] from war and put your families through [108:21] it things that the average person [108:22] frankly wouldn't be willing to do um for [108:25] the sake of an important cause. Thank [108:28] you for that. Thank you on behalf of all [108:30] of the people that will never be able to [108:31] say it to you. Thank you for what you're [108:33] doing in this chapter of your life [108:34] because you are maybe whether you know [108:36] it or not, you are saving, improving, [108:39] and changing lives with everything you [108:41] do with your incredible podcast, with [108:42] all the books you've written. You've [108:44] written this, you know, you're writing [108:46] children's books as well now to try and [108:48] help shift the mindset of people at the [108:49] very while they're still seeds and [108:51] they're formative. And I think that's [108:53] also going to change improve lives. and [108:55] thank you for all the inspiration you've [108:56] given me over the years because you'll [108:58] never get to see all of the people who [109:00] hear a line that you say, the way that [109:03] you say it, the stories that you tell. [109:06] Um, and for some of those people, it's [109:07] just the subtle nud nudge that they need [109:09] to take that first step to spit the [109:11] Dorito out and to change their lives. [109:13] You know, when I when I think about my [109:15] friendship circle and I told told some [109:17] of my friends that I was speaking to you [109:18] today, those are young men and women [109:21] that can all pinpoint the moment where [109:23] they encountered you and they can [109:24] pinpoint how it moved their life forward [109:26] in some way. You'll never meet these [109:28] millions and millions of people, but I [109:30] just want you to know for sure that [109:31] they're there and they're watching now [109:33] and they've been watching and they'll [109:35] continue to watch. So, Joo, thank you. [109:37] It's been an honor. It was an honor to [109:38] serve and thanks for having me on here. [109:41] Appreciate it. Heat. Heat. [109:45] [Music]