Former Agent Poumpouras Details Secret Service High-Stress Tactics

前特工Poumpouras详解特勤局高压应对策略 Evy Poumpouras认为，唯有摒弃受害者标签、专注于追求充实感而非暂时的快乐，才能建立个人责任感与心理韧性。 前特勤局特工Evy Poumpouras分享了关于沟通、测谎及树立个人威信的实用战术与心理洞察。她回顾了职业生涯中的高压经历，包括在“9·11”事件中幸存，以及在地下车库面临瞬间生死抉择的险境，借此阐明高标准与体能自律如何锤炼心理韧性。此外，Poumpouras与主持人Stephen Bartlett还探讨了拒绝受害者身份认同、应对歧视，以及将有限精力专注于追求个人充实感而非浮于表面的快乐。 真正的掌控力源于倾听而非滔滔不绝；在谈判与沟通中保持安静并秉持不带评判的态度，能让对方主动袒露真实动机与底层信念。 (10:38) 在特勤局测谎与审讯中，识破谎言的核心在于观察基准线偏差，过度礼貌或企图借助宗教等外力自证清白往往是心虚伪装的典型信号。 (46:06) 身体状态与心理韧性密不可分，通过日常严苛的高强度体能宣泄能够有效排解极端压力、愤怒并重建内心的稳定感。 (64:37) 在曼哈顿地下车库追捕嫌疑人的惊险经历中，埃维在千钧一发之际克制住开枪冲动，深刻体会到执法行动中毫秒级生死抉择的残酷与重压。 (67:19)

Former U.S. Secret Service Special Agent Evy Poumpouras argues that true influence, deception detection, and mental fortitude stem from disciplined self-governance, non-judgmental observation, and personal accountability rather than seeking validation or adopting victim identities. Detecting Deception Through Baselines and Silence (46:06) Poumpouras explains that lie detection requires establishing an individual's behavioral baseline—observing how they speak, maintain eye contact, and position themselves when relaxed—and identifying abrupt deviations when stress is introduced. In investigative settings, over-cooperative behavior, excessive politeness, and appeals to divine intervention (such as swearing on holy figures or bringing religious items) frequently serve as red flags of deception. She illustrates this with an ATM skimmer who remained entirely unfazed and denied his identity despite being shown clear photographs of himself wearing the same hat to the interrogation. Tactically, Poumpouras identifies silence as the primary driver of influence. In negotiations, business, or polygraph interrogations, talking excessively cedes control by revealing one's hand while learning nothing about the counterpart. Allowing counterparts room to speak without interruption or moral judgment encourages them to disclose their genuine motivations, core values, and operational vulnerabilities. Balancing Competence, Warmth, and Immediate Accountability (12:57) Citing research by social psychologists Susan Fiske and Chris Malone, Poumpouras cautions leaders against prioritizing being liked over being respected. Striving for popularity leads to excessive politeness that erodes professional boundaries and invites poor performance. Instead, she advocates pairing high competence—reliability and delivering on promises—with warmth, defined as open, non-judgmental communication. When standards are breached, leaders must address errors immediately through objective, unemotional debriefs rather than letting resentment fester. Drawing on 12 years of observing U.S. presidents including Bill Clinton, George W. Bush, Barack Obama, and Donald Trump, Poumpouras highlights emotional detachment as essential for high-stakes decision-making. She observed that effective executives insulate themselves from public ridicule and hostility, choosing to evaluate choices through cold rationality and facts rather than bruised egos or emotional reactivity. Paralinguistics and Building Vocal Authority (78:33) Authority in professional interactions is heavily shaped by paralinguistics—the pitch, projection, and tonal inflection of speech. Poumpouras observes that professionals often weaken valid arguments by trailing off or using upward inflections that turn declarative statements into tentative questions. Speaking with a grounded, downward inflection communicates composure and conviction. Host Steven Bartlett introduces the framework of an informal 'contribution score'—an accumulated reputational credit earned by delivering high-value insights. Poumpouras corroborates this dynamic, noting that individuals who speak only when they have substantive points command immediate room attention, whereas reflexive, unstructured chatter rapidly degrades perceived credibility. Remaining silent when lacking domain expertise preserves authority and signals intellectual humility. Internal Sovereignty and Reframing Systemic Friction (85:37) Poumpouras strongly rejects identity-driven victimhood, arguing that defining oneself primarily through past trauma or perceived discrimination permanently limits personal agency. Recalling her survival of the September 11 World Trade Center collapse, she describes choosing to confront emerging fears immediately—such as boarding a commercial flight three weeks later—rather than allowing a single catastrophic event to anchor her identity. When confronting institutional friction or stereotyping, Poumpouras advises conserving mental energy rather than engaging in perpetual conflict. As a female trainee in an agency that was roughly 98% male, she rejected the lower physical fitness benchmarks set for women, choosing to train to male standards to eliminate accusations of tokenism. Both Poumpouras and Bartlett stress that while prejudice exists, building personal 'sovereignty'—an internal standard of excellence independent of external validation—enables individuals to turn low expectations into a operational advantage. Poumpouras's framework positions discipline, emotional governance, and personal accountability as universal tools for high-stakes performance; however, her perspective relies heavily on individual psychological adaptation rather than structural remediation, leaving open questions about the extent to which organizational cultures can lower friction without demanding that individuals absorb all institutional burdens alone.

前美国特勤局特工兼审讯专家Evy Poumpouras指出，有效的影响力与谎言识别并不依赖表面话术，而是源于建立行为基线、保持非评判性倾听以及严守沉默以获取信息；在人际与领导力层面，个体唯有确立清晰边界、摒弃受害者叙事并承担绝对个人责任，才能在极端压力与博弈中构建真正的心理主权。 建立基线观察与识别欺骗线索 (46:06) Poumpouras结合其长达八年在全球开展测谎与审讯的经验指出，识破谎言的核心在于建立个体的“行为基线”，即先摸清对方在放松、正常状态下的言语节奏、肢体动作、眼神接触与坐姿，进而捕捉其在面对特定敏感问题时偏离基线的突变。身体语言没有单一固定的欺骗密码，突兀的视线回避、姿态骤变或低头均是需要审讯者进一步追问探究的信号。 在具体案件中，过度配合与道德补偿往往是欺骗的重大警示信号。Poumpouras回忆在布鲁克林侦办一起低级自动取款机（ATM）盗刷案时，嫌疑人面对带有其正脸且佩戴纽约尼克斯队（New York Knicks）球帽的监控高清照片与指纹铁证，不仅在审讯室头戴同款球帽神色自若地断然否认，还全程展现出极度礼貌的“是的，女士”（Yes ma'am）态度。她强调，有罪嫌疑人极常通过过度配合、宣誓“对上帝发誓”或携带圣经与念珠等宗教信物来掩盖心虚，试图用虚假道德感建立清白表象。 战略性沉默与非评判性信息获取 (10:38) 在商业谈判与跨部门博弈中，多数人误以为多说话代表掌握控制权，但Poumpouras认为真正的战术优势始终属于倾听者。说得越多，泄露给对方的信息与弱点就越多；保持沉默则能为对手留出宣泄空间，使其在无防备中自然暴露核心动机、价值观与深层诉求。她在多起卧底行动中均运用了这一逻辑，例如在多机构联合诱捕俄罗斯金融黑客的行动中，她通过洞悉对方对暴利的贪婪，在多米尼加共和国假扮大龄纽约警探的女友，全程克制表达，最终成功促成嫌犯登机赴美受捕；在渗透阿尔巴尼亚护照伪造网络时，她甚至选择不带武器与窃听器，以被拐卖受害者的虚假身份直面危险，通过细致表演促成多笔交易并固定证据。 获取信息的另一决定性法宝是彻底的“非评判态度”。受访者一旦感知到被评价或被道德说教，便会立刻启动防御机制并隐瞒关键事实。在测谎审讯中面对包括侵害儿童在内的恶性罪犯时，Poumpouras始终克制情绪，将目标聚焦于挖出潜在受害者与锁死定罪证据，而非宣泄道德优越感；唯有让谈话对象感到被客观倾听，才能瓦解其心理防线。 以胜任力与明确边界确立职场权威 (12:57) Poumpouras援引社会心理学家Susan Fiske与Chris Malone的研究指出，职场管理者常落入“渴望被人喜欢”的陷阱。过度友善与软弱的客套不仅模糊了工作界限，更容易招致下属的轻视与试探；领导者应追求“胜任力”与“温度”的结合，即在展现尊重与开放的同时，保持极高的专业执行力与严格的标准。正如前中央情报局（CIA）站长John Sipher的见解，一开始设立严厉边界并在后续逐步展现灵活性，远比以朋友姿态开局再试图收紧规矩容易得多。 当发生违规或失误时，管理者应借鉴白宫内阁会议室（Cabinet Room）的务实辩论模式，就事论事地展开非评判性沟通，例如以波澜不惊的“扑克脸”倾听员工复盘，并询问“我能提供什么支持来帮助你下次成功”。此外，权威亦取决于言语副语言学（Paralinguistics）与发言质量：以坚定的降调结尾能传递确定性，而升调则显露不安全感。同时，频繁发表未经深思的琐碎意见会拉低个体的“贡献分值”，唯有在具备高价值洞察时发言，才能在会议中赢得彻底的专注与尊重。 摒弃受害者叙事与确立个人主权 (85:37) Poumpouras从法医心理学视角剖析指出，部分人群倾向于沉溺在“受害者身份”中，以此作为逃避责任、免除指责并换取关注与社交资本的庇护所。这类个体往往具有高度自我中心的语言特征，频繁重复第一人称代词，并沉迷于冲突激发的皮质醇与肾上腺素带来的生理兴奋。她以自身经历举例，在亲历纽约“9·11”恐怖袭击并幸免于难后，她没有将特勤局授予的英勇勋章公开陈列，而是置于床下，并在事发三周后强迫自己乘坐商业航班，坚持在恐惧尚小时将其彻底击碎，坚决不让单一日期的创伤固化为自身的核心标签。 在男性占98%的特勤局环境中，Poumpouras拒绝接受所谓的“冒名顶替综合征”或弱势群体标签。当得知体能测试存在按性别划分的较低及格线时，她主动选择按照男性标准高强度加练，拒绝因性别获得降低标准的优待。面对日常遭遇的偏见与低估，她主张将其转化为战术优势，并建立精神防御护甲，避免将有限的时间与精力无休止地耗费在对抗每一个愚蠢之人上，将专注力全面投入于任务达成与个人主权的构建。 Poumpouras的论点展示了特工层面的极端压力处置与审讯技术如何平移至日常领导力与人际博弈，倡导以纪律、边界与客观理性主导决策。然而，该框架重度依赖高对抗执法与国家元首安保的特殊实战经验，其主张在面对创伤与职场偏见时迅速跳过情感宣泄、诉诸绝对个体责任与心理硬化，对处于深层心理创伤或弱势系统困境中的普通人群是否具备普适性，仍保留着未解的现实张力。

## Background 该视频由著名播客频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2024 年 6 月 6 日在 YouTube 平台发布。本期访谈嘉宾为前美国特勤局特工、审讯专家兼畅销书《Becoming Bulletproof》作者 Evy Poumpouras，内容围绕识破谎言、高压决策、领导力心理学以及在极端挑战中建立心理韧性展开。 ## TL;DR 在长达两小时的深度对谈中，前特勤局特工 Evy Poumpouras 结合贴身保护四位美国总统及跨境卧底的实战经历，拆解了高压环境下的处世与决策法则。她分享了如何通过倾听与副语言学掌握人际主动权、如何利用行为基线识别欺瞒，并强调在商业与领导中应追求“专业胜任力”而非迎合他人。此外，Evy 与主持人深入剖析了心理韧性的本质，呼吁人们警惕将创伤内化为身份认同的“受害者心态”，倡导通过承担个人责任与建立坚定界限重获生命主权。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话张弛有度且极具现场张力，Evy 冷静沉着、眼神坚定且毫无掩饰的特工气场与 Steven 温和探究、善于共情的提问方式形成了鲜明而和谐的互补。从险些开枪击毙嫌疑人的惊魂生死时刻，到剖析当代人情感内耗与受害者成瘾的锐利交锋，访谈洋溢着一种直面现实的硬核清醒感。聆听体验如同接受一场毫无保留的心智淬炼，既能感受到冷酷执法实战中的惊心动魄，又能体会到向内审视、打破自我设限的解脱与赋能。 ## Bulletin - [40:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2452s) 前美国特勤局特工兼审讯专家 Evy Poumpouras 指出，特勤局的录取淘汰率低于 1%，其筛选最看重的非体能或技巧，而是极端诚实（Integrity）与值得信赖，任何对过往过错的掩饰都会被直接淘汰。 - [10:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=643s) 在人际说服与审讯博弈中，真正掌控谈话的是倾听者而非表达者；过度表达是在单向交出自身底牌与价值观，管住嘴并建立常态行为基线（Baseline）才能精准捕捉欺瞒与动机。 - [35:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2135s) 贴身保卫四任美国总统长达 12 年的经历表明，顶级领袖的核心共性是在面对铺天盖地的攻击与生死抉择时保持极致的客观冷静，彻底剥离个人情绪，完全基于事实与利弊推演做决策。 - [01:27:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5252s) 针对职场偏见与受害者心态，Poumpouras 提出与其陷入“冒名顶替综合征”或沉溺于创伤带来的群体认同，不如建立心理能量护罩并夺回个人责任，因为将创伤内化为身份认同会彻底剥夺自身的主动权。 ## Key takeaways - [10:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=643s) 倾听带来真正的掌控权：人们常误以为多说话是主导谈话，实则是单向泄露自己的价值观与动机；管住嘴巴、全神贯注倾听才能摸清对手的核心诉求。 - [13:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=790s) 追求胜任力而非讨人喜欢：在商业与职场中以“招人喜欢”为目标会导致决策变形，唯有说到做到、守时高效的专业度（Competence）辅以恰当的温度才能赢得真正的尊重。 - [14:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=874s) 审讯与沟通中的非评判法则：一旦流露出道德评判，对方就会筑起心防；放下站在道德高地教训人的冲动，专注于获取核心信息与事实本身。 - [19:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1141s) 人际界限被践踏时先反思自身：遭遇下属越界或不尊重，首先要自问是自己的何种默许或标准缺失释放了错误信号，且问题必须在冒头时立即直面处理。 - [28:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1716s) 社交圈的能量管理与“A级人才”渗透法则：你身边的人决定了你的心理抗压性，若核心圈充斥着内耗与闹剧，应平静地将消耗者移至边缘，确保核心圈的沉稳与专业。 - [35:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2135s) 顶级领袖的决断艺术在于剥离情绪：无论是白宫决策室的激烈交锋还是面对公众舆论攻击，卓越领导者从不大吼大叫，而是能承受严酷逻辑碰撞、基于事实推演行动。 - [44:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2643s) 特勤局严苛筛选的核心是诚信：在低于 1% 的残酷录取率中，机构最看重候选人能否坦然承担错误，在纸面和测谎中撒谎意味着生死任务中不可托付。 - [46:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2763s) 识别谎言的关键在于建立行为基线与观察“神圣干预”：离开对象的正常习惯动作谈谎言毫无意义；而当嫌疑人信誉破产时，往往会通过搬出神明发誓或刻意佩戴宗教饰品来代偿掩饰。 - [56:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3377s) 自信无法靠肢体技巧伪造：市面上的姿势速成法无法掩盖内心的低价值感，真正的底气源自微小自律日积月累的复利效应，最终达成不依赖外界认可的“精神主权”。 - [01:04:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3877s) 身体与心智是不可分割的统一体：身心处于紧密联结状态，抑郁和极度焦虑无法仅靠脑内思考化解，必须通过高强度运动等物理途径释放神经系统积压的负能量。 - [01:12:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=4334s) 正常化负面情绪，追求充实感而非纯粹快乐：恐惧和焦虑是保持生存警觉的必要机能，过度追求虚假幸福或将情绪病态化反而有害，成就感往往诞生于最严酷艰苦的坚持中。 - [01:19:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=4779s) 职场中的副语言学与“发言信用分”：决定影响力的不仅是内容，更是语调与气场；盲目追求存在感而频繁发表低质量言论会透支个人信用，宁可保持沉默也不要为了说话而说话。 - [01:25:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5137s) 警惕受害者心态成瘾：把失败归咎于外部环境虽然轻松，但反复咀嚼创伤会形成对肾上腺素和皮质醇的病态生理依赖，最终将受害经历变成限制自我发展的终身沉重拖车。 - [01:45:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=6324s) “被低估”取决于个人的认知视角：反差外表在卧底行动中是天然护甲，在正规职场中面对轻视时，无需被动内耗或愤怒自证，用实力与成果冷静划定边界即可化劣势为优势。 - [01:51:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=6684s) 拒绝标签理论与刻板印象威胁：不要主动跳入弱势身份的自我设限牢笼，建立心理能量护罩，将宝贵生命精力投入到自我成长中，而不是去纠正生活中的每一处偏见。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=0s) 破译谎言与高压决策的核心法则 作为前美国特勤局（US Secret Service）特工与审讯专家，Evy Poumpouras 接受过极其系统的人类行为学训练，涵盖肢体语言解读、言语线索破译，乃至书面陈述的微观语义分析，从而精准识别出谁在虚张声势、满口谎言。在本期对话的开场集锦中，主持人 Steven Bartlett 与 Evy 快速勾勒了特勤局职业生涯所沉淀出的几大核心能力与洞见： - **如何促使他人按你的意愿行事**：每个人内心的驱动因子完全不同，关键在于洞察对方的核心动力思维（Motivational Mindset）。大多数人常犯的错误，就是以自己的动机去套用别人的动机。 - **让声音被听见的副语言学（Paralanguage）**：当遭遇上级或同事忽视时，人们通常只关注“说了什么”，却忽略了音调（tone）、音高（pitch）等声学特征对权威感和说服力的决定性影响。 - **与顶级领导者同行的体悟**：在贴身保护比尔·克林顿（Bill Clinton）、贝拉克·奥巴马（Barack Obama）等四位美国总统长达 12 年的历程中，Evy 见证了国家领袖做重大决断的关键特质——他们从不被纯粹的情感左右。普通人最容易将个人情绪带入决策，而真正卓越的决策者必须退后一步，保持极致的客观冷静。 - **直面生死的极度惊险**：特工生涯伴随着对总统遇险的戒备与卧底行动中的生死悬于一线。Evy 提及在一次卧底任务中，情势骤然激化失控，搭档随时可能被杀，她被迫暗中拔枪应对，那份极度紧绷的记忆至今历历在目。 --- ### [02:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=142s) 人生信条：永远在蜕变，永不止步 面对刚刚点开播客的观众，Evy 阐明了本场对话的核心价值：每个人内心深处都在渴望成为更好版本的自己。这也是她撰写畅销书《Becoming Bulletproof》（成为防弹之人）的初衷——“突破现状，成为更多（become more）”。 Evy 坚守一条人生座右铭：“当你认为自己全知全能的那一天，就是你走向被淘汰的开始（The day you think you know everything is the day you become obsolete）。”她强调自己永远未达顶峰，永远处于进阶过程中。谈及自身智慧与技能的来源，她回顾了自己作为纽约移民家庭女儿的成长经历。她在 22、23 岁的极年轻时期便加入了纽约市警察局（NYPD），随后考入美国特勤局。 在同龄人流连于派对享乐的年纪，Evy 已置身于世界上最顶级的执行者与思想者圈子中。高强度的极端训练与残酷职场极其磨砺心性，也让她在极度谦逊中迅速成熟。特勤局的环境不相信借口，也没有人在意个人情绪，唯一的法则就是“把任务完成”。在白宫与精锐同僚相处的岁月塑造了她的思维模式。她不推崇盲目模仿任何“榜样（role models）”，而是坚持做真实的自己，同时像锻炼肌肉一样不断汲取他人的长处，持续校准自我认知。 --- ### [05:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=305s) 特勤局的双重职责：违背本能的安保与跨境卧底抓捕 大众对美国特勤局的认知往往停留在“总统贴身保镖”，但这只是冰山一角。特勤局是美国历史最悠久的联邦执法机构之一，核心承担两项主要职能： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 特勤局的两大核心职能 accDescr: 展现特工在安保与刑事侦查双重领域的不同工作模式与行动逻辑。 subgraph Protection ["第一职能：保护行动 (Protection)"] direction TB P1["保护对象：总统、副总统、前总统、第一夫人及外国访美元首"] P2["心理重塑：打破规避伤害的生存本能"] P3["战术动作：面对枪击不找掩护，反而挺身遮挡扩大受弹面积"] P1 --> P2 --> P3 end subgraph Investigation ["第二职能：跨国刑事侦查 (Investigations)"] direction TB I1["侦查领域：金融欺诈、复杂的跨国高智商经济犯罪"] I2["司法困境：外逃嫌疑人藏匿于无引渡协议国家（如俄罗斯）"] I3["战术手段：多机构联合制定引诱计划，实施跨国卧底设套"] I1 --> I2 --> I3 end ``` - **第一项职能：保护行动（Protection）** - **保护对象**：不仅包括现任总统，还涵盖前总统、副总统、第一夫人以及所有访美的外国元首（如英国首相）。特勤局的原则是确保外宾在本土的安全，哪怕面对政见不合的对象，特工唯一的使命也是“我愿为你挡子弹（I die for you）”。 - **反直觉的身体重塑**：普通警务培训要求警员遭遇枪击时缩小身形（make yourself small）、寻找掩护后再进行反击；特勤局则彻底违背生存本能——一旦枪声响起，特工必须主动跳到保护目标身前，张开身体把靶面放至最大，确保子弹打在自己身上而非要员身上。这种绝对的自我牺牲需要极其严苛的神经突触重塑。 - **第二项职能：跨国犯罪侦查（Investigations）** - 特工负责调查涉及全球范围的高科技复杂欺诈案件。Evy 回忆了一宗抓捕俄罗斯黑客的真实案件。该黑客专门黑入美国顶级富豪的银行账户大肆盗窃，特勤局联合国土安全部（Homeland Security）与海关及边境保卫局（CBP）展开追缉。由于美俄两国不存在引渡合作，执法部门决定设局，将其诱骗至第三方中立国。 - 一个周五的傍晚，主管突然在走廊叫住 Evy：“波姆普拉斯，你明天有什么安排？”得到“听候差遣”的回答后，主管直接派发了紧急卧底任务：前往多米尼加共和国（Dominican Republic），扮演一名纽约市警察局资深探员（年龄大她二三十岁）的年轻女友。 - Evy 的任务是在度假胜地为整场戏码提供真实感背书（legitimacy）。他们利用嫌疑人的核心动机——“贪婪与金钱欲望”，以“协助偷渡去美国大赚一笔”为饵，在度假村泳池边连日喝着无酒精果汁（Virgin Piña Colada），并与嫌犯共进多次晚餐展开心理博弈。 - 决胜时刻定在离境当天的清晨。特工们安排了一架由 CBP 伪装的“私人飞机”，距离预定起飞时间仅剩 3 分钟（上午 8 点 57 分），摇摆不定的嫌疑人才现身答应登机。飞机自多米尼加起飞后，经由迈阿密短暂停留加油（地勤看似在看报纸，实则全是由特工伪装监控），随后径直飞往纽约长岛的偏远跑道，成功将该名跨国罪犯引渡归案。 ### [09:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=584s) 布鲁克林大桥收网行动与引渡假象 伊芙·庞普拉斯（Evy Poumpouras）回忆了一次精彩的卧底收网经历。当时她和假扮她男友的卧底特工带着一名俄罗斯犯罪嫌疑人下了私人飞机，坐进了一辆准备好的加长豪华轿车（limo）。车里备有高档威士忌——杰克丹尼蓝牌（Jack Daniel's），庞普拉斯虽然平时不喝酒，但为了卧底身份必须维持逼真的排场。他们一路驱车前往纽约布鲁克林大桥，这也是预先设定好的收网地点。 行动的最终抓捕信号设计得极为巧妙且自然：嫌疑人特地从俄罗斯带来了当地特色的帽子，庞普拉斯提议在布鲁克林大桥前为她的“男友”和这名俄罗斯人拍合影留念。当她举起相机、背景是大桥的那一刻，特工“男友”满脸笑容地说着：“欢迎来到美国，我们要大干一场，卷走所有的钱！”俄罗斯嫌疑人兴奋不已。就在庞普拉斯按动快门的那一瞬间（“咔嚓”一声），埋伏的抓捕人员瞬间扑上，在确认安全的前提下一举将所有人（包括卧底在内以防穿帮）全部戴上手铐带走。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 卧底诱捕与收网流程 accDescr: 展示特工如何利用利益将嫌疑人引诱至美国并执行抓捕信号的过程。 subgraph Preparation["引诱入境"] A["利用金钱欲望利诱嫌疑人"] --> B["私人飞机与豪华轿车接机"] end subgraph Execution["现场执行"] B --> C["前往布鲁克林大桥观光"] C --> D["戴俄式冬帽拍照留念"] end subgraph Signal["收网抓捕"] D --> E["合影快门声作为行动信号"] E --> F["执法队伍介入，全员上铐"] end ``` --- ### [10:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=643s) 倾听与掌控：别用嘴巴放弃你的主导权 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）探讨了如何说服别人按照你的意愿行事，并提到了前中央情报局（CIA）特工安德鲁·布斯塔曼特（Andrew Bustamante）分享的 RICE 动机框架——报酬（Reward）、意识形态（Ideology）、强迫（Coercion）与自尊（Ego）。史蒂芬指出，无论在商业、销售还是日常说服中，核心都在于如何让一个陌生人完全顺从你的安排。 庞普拉斯对这种说服机制的核心秘诀给出了极为直接的回答：“管住自己的嘴，保持沉默（I'm going to shut up）。”她指出人们在交流中犯的最大错误就是说得太多。很多人误以为说得最多的人掌控着谈话，但她斥责这种观念纯属无稽之谈：“如果你一直在说，而我在听，那么你是在把自己的一切、你的价值观、你真正在乎的东西全盘托出，我能把你摸得一清二楚，而你对我一无所知。听的那个人才真正拥有掌控力。”通过给对方足够的表达空间，人们自然会暴露自己的核心动机与内在心理。 - **动机驱动的差异**：该俄罗斯嫌疑人的核心动力就是对金钱的贪婪，加之他在老家有妻子孩子，家庭背景和成长轨迹决定了金钱能打动他。 - **自我暴露陷阱**：现代人总觉得自己的声音无比重要，急于标榜自我身份，结果往往把主动权拱手送给了倾听者。 --- ### [13:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=790s) 讨人喜欢是陷阱：用专业胜任力赢得尊重 面对史蒂芬关于“倾听是否能让对方更喜欢你”的提问，庞普拉斯提出反对意见。她明确警告：在商业和人际博弈中，把“让人喜欢我”当成目标是一场灾难。如果你专注于讨人喜欢，你的全副精力就会偏离核心目标，导致决策彻底变形；相比之下，如果目标是谈成一笔交易，你就该把重心放在促成交易的条件上。因为即便你把每件事都做得很完美，别人仍有可能讨厌你。 她建议大家应当追求“胜任力（Competence）”而非“招人喜欢”： - **说到做到**：承诺的事情必有回音，承诺的技能必须货真价实。 - **守时文化**：说好 9 点到，8:55 就要到达。美国特勤局有一句经典格言——“准时即迟到（If you're on time, you're late）”。 - **赢得尊重**：展现出极高的职业胜任力，对方自然会认可并尊重你。 除了专业能力外，另一项关键要素是“温度（Warmth）”。庞普拉斯对“温度”的定义不是谄媚或过度迎合，而是主动给予对方尊重：保持开放、易于接近、准时且不轻易评判他人。 --- ### [14:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=874s) 放弃评判：测谎室里的无偏见沟通法则 庞普拉斯分享了自己在企业培训演讲中反复强调的理念：“在沟通中，你并不重要，他们才重要。”如果不去倾听，你永远摸不清受众在想什么，进入谈话时就会像个盲人一样胡乱猜测。每个人在成长过程中的驱动力截然不同；庞普拉斯自己从小到大就从不被金钱驱动，无论是早年加入纽约警察局（NYPD）还是后来进入特勤局，她甚至从未打听过薪资待遇，她完全是由“使命感与目标感”驱动的。 在沟通中，阻碍他人坦诚的最大绊脚石就是“道德评判（Judgment）”。一旦你流露出评判态度，对方立刻会建立心理防线、过滤信息甚至彻底闭嘴。庞普拉斯曾在特勤局测谎室里审讯过多名犯下极恶罪行的人（包括针对儿童的恶性犯罪者）。当时许多人问她：“你怎么能坐得住？为什么不直接痛骂他们、狠狠教训他们？”庞普拉斯清醒地表示： > “我的目标是获取情报，查明是否还有其他受害者，弄清作案手法以防止悲剧重演，并取得定罪的关键口供。我的目标不是站在道德制高点去教训他们，或者让他们知道我心里有多看不起他们。” - **学术研究印证**：庞普拉斯援引了苏珊·菲斯克（Susan Fiske）与克里斯·马隆（Chris Malone）关于温度与胜任力的研究，指出过度友好、过度客气反而会导致别人在边界上踩过界。 - **专业与界限**：保持温暖但维持权威与底线，一旦从专业伙伴变成“纯粹的朋友”，人际权责边界就会彻底模糊。 --- ### [18:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1088s) 面对冒犯与越界：先检视自身释放的信号 史蒂芬提到许多管理者和领导者最害怕正面冲突，面对下属的无礼、不敬或不达标的工作交付时，往往选择回避；而这种逃避实际上是在向对方发出错误的信号，默许别人跨过红线，从而埋下更大的隐患。 对于职场中被冒犯或界限被踩破的情况，庞普拉斯给出的应对策略是“反向审视（Flip it back）”。与其立刻陷入愤怒去质问对方，首先要反问自己：“究竟是你做过了什么、退让了什么，才让别人觉得可以这样肆无忌惮地对待你？”解决人际冲突的第一步，永远是核查自身树立的边界与释放的微弱信号。 ### [19:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1141s) 设立标准与自我反思：从“我”开始寻找原因 当团队中有人迟到、无法按时交付或表现出不尊重时，艾维·庞波拉斯（Evy Poumpouras）的第一反应不是指责对方，而是进行自我审视：“我过去建立了什么样的标准，或者设置了怎样的环境，让别人觉得可以不按时交付、可以不尊重人、可以上班迟到？”她指出，领导者必须先从自身寻找根源，因为正是领导者本人在为整个环境定调。 艾维提到最近采访前中情局（CIA）驻外站长（Chief of Station）约翰·弗兰齐（John Franey）的经历。管理着众多背景各异、个性极强的特工与官员，弗兰齐分享了一条深刻的领导心得：在刚开始时设立清晰严格的界限、保持坚定与权威，之后再适度放宽，这远比一开始试图和所有人做朋友、随后又想重新立规矩要容易得多。后者几乎注定失败。领导者必须在第一时间亮明期望，随后即使稍有放松，也必须时刻守住那条底线。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 建立界限与标准的两种路径对比 accDescr: 对比先严后宽的高效管理方式与先友后严的失败管理方式 subgraph Recommended["推荐做法：权威奠基与适度放宽"] A["明确界限与期望值\n（坚定、严格定调）"] --> B["建立权威与规则感"] B --> C["适度收放自如\n（关系健康可控）"] end subgraph Ineffective["无效做法：试图讨好与事后补救"] D["一开始试图成为朋友\n（界限模糊）"] --> E["发生违规与不尊重"] E --> F["试图事后建立规矩\n（遭遇抵触并失败）"] end ``` ### [20:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1220s) 及时干预、化解冲突与白宫内阁室的辩论艺术 当团队中出现越界或表现欠佳的特例时，艾维强调必须在事情发生的当下“立即处理”。大多数人往往选择视而不见，觉得只是件小事便随它去；可随着小事一再重复，内心便会积聚愤怒与怨恨，甚至责怪对方“为什么就不能自我修正”。归根结底，这依然是领导者自己的责任——为什么没有及时指出？许多人之所以退缩，是因为害怕冲突。然而，艾维指出冲突可以以非常积极的方式进行：它不需要扯开嗓门大喊大叫，也不用把场面搞得难看，而应该像一场健康的竞争或辩论。 为了说明这一点，艾维以白宫为例：紧挨着椭圆形办公室（Oval Office）的就是内阁室（Cabinet Room）。总统会与财政部长、国土安全部长等内阁核心成员坐在一起，面对面就政策与法律展开激烈竞争和辩论。有人直言不讳地指出“我不喜欢这个方案，理由如下”，另一人则反驳“这套行不通，原因在另一处”。艾维认为，每个人都需要学会在这种直接的对抗中感到自在。 艾维分享了自己管理团队的亲身经历：曾有一名下属犯了一个相当严重的错误，艾维立刻把对方叫过来，语气平缓地说：“发生了这件事，你能不能跟我讲讲当时的情况？”她耐心地听完对方的解释，随后做了一件关键的事，她问对方：“我这边有什么可以帮你的，能让你的工作更顺手、让你把事情做得更好？”艾维希望弄清楚，是否是自己的某些作为或不作为，影响了下属的判断。 - **直面问题的即时性**：问题冒头的第一时间予以干预，避免小毛病滚雪球变成积怨。 - **白宫内阁室的高强度辩论**：高层决策依赖于开诚布公的交锋与观点碰撞，而非一团和气。 - **支持型纠错法**：既指出失误，又询问下属“我能提供什么支持来帮你成功”，审视领导者自身流程是否存在漏洞。 ### [22:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1330s) 自尊作祟还是界限被破？扑克脸倾听与以身作则 谈及职场中的“不尊重”，艾维提醒大家务必分清：这究竟是对方真的践踏了你的界限，还是仅仅伤到了你敏感的自尊心（ego）。如果终极目标是打造出色的产品或促成优秀的商业交易，那么所有的行为都应当服务于这个目标。史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）补充道，现实中人们常常陷入自我怀疑：“是对方的做法真的越界了，还是我自己玻璃心、被情绪触发了？”这种反复纠结往往导致人们选择沉默容忍，久而久之让越界行为演变成了默认规则。 艾维笑着坦承，自己作为在纽约皇后区长大的希腊裔，骨子里很容易瞬间进入“战斗模式”。因此她必须强迫自己停顿下来，向内心发问：“对方说的话是不是虽然刺耳但我确实需要听进去的？他们是不是在指出我的盲点、帮我把事情做得更好？还是他们真的越过了底线？” 一旦决定谈话，艾维会坐下来心平气和地询问：“当时发生了什么？你是怎么考虑的？跟我走一遍你的思路。”她强调要保持一张无动于衷的“扑克脸”（Poker Face），不带任何批判色彩。通常情况下，当对方自己把前因后果复述一遍时，他们自己就会意识到问题出在哪里。此外，领导者必须以身作则：艾维自己因为出差耽误了截止日期时，会主动向合作者承认错误：“抱歉我耽搁了，这是我的责任，告诉我怎么补救。”当领导者勇于担当，团队成员也会依样画葫芦，以同样的坦诚和担当回应。 ### [24:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1484s) 剔除害群之马与课堂管理：赋予自主权的边界策略 艾维严肃指出，如果团队里招进了一个根本不该留下的人，领导者必须果断做出艰难决定、将其开除。因为单单一颗“害群之马”就足以瓦解整个团队的凝聚力。其他员工看在眼里，会暗自琢磨：“老板根本不在乎，既然他放任那个人乱来，那我也可以浑水摸鱼。” 为了进一步阐明规则设立，艾维分享了自己在大学担任兼职教授（Adjunct Professor）讲授本科刑事司法课程的案例： - **开学第一天定规矩**：第一堂课上，她明确宣布“课堂严禁使用手机”。她解释这不是为了彰显个人威严，而是因为“我对你们负有教学责任，我在乎你们的成长，所以课堂上绝不能看到手机”。 - **运用自主权产生影响力**：艾维并没有实行死板的高压管控，而是给学生绝对的自主权——“你们随时可以走出教室，去走廊刷 Facebook、刷 Instagram，我完全不在乎。但在这间教室里，必须维护课堂的尊严”。 - **借助外部共鸣强化标准**：在开学第一课，她会播放一段探讨社交媒体负面影响与手机成瘾的精选视频剪辑（巧合的是，史蒂芬·巴特利特本人也出现在这段素材中）。这段视频极具震撼力，让全班同学由衷认同。 - **言出必行落实惩戒**：她提前挑明后果，只要在教室看到谁掏出手机，课堂会立刻暂停并请该学生回家。规则一旦确立，有人违规就坚决执行，这使得她后续整个学期的课堂秩序都极其顺畅。 ### [26:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1595s) 心理韧性的后天塑造：审视你身边的“能量圈” 史蒂芬问艾维，她那种直视他人双眼、昂首挺胸、直截了当的强大气场与坚定信念（Mental Fortitude），究竟是天生自带的，还是后天一步步磨练出来的。艾维毫不犹豫地回答，这是经历了无数次犯错、极致的自律，以及周围环境的塑造共同沉淀出来的结果。 艾维强调，“你身边围绕的人”决定了你的心理状态。如果周围的人遇到高压危机就惊慌失措、溃不成军，你也会被同化成那个样子。即使到了今天，她依然极其严格地筛选自己的社交圈： - **保护个人心理稳定性**：审视自己在与谁对话、在吸收谁的负能量，以及在替谁解决问题。 - **设定人际防火墙**：她提到身边有一位非常在乎的亲友，深陷一段动荡混乱的毒性关系中，反复跑来向艾维倾诉求助。在多次给出建议对方却依旧拖延不改后，艾维果断给对方划定界限：“我已经告诉过你该怎么做，现在你必须自己去解决。因为你的混乱情绪正在渗透到我身上，我必须保持内心的稳固。” - **人际关系的数学题**：即便内心感到痛苦，艾维也会把消耗自己的人移到社交圈的边缘。这并不代表不爱他们，而是防止他们的无序生活拖垮自己的节奏。艾维直言，这就像一道简单的数学题：“你就是他们，他们就是你。如果你不喜欢当下的自己，不妨停下来看看，自己平时接触最多的人究竟是谁。” ### [028:36] 圈子管理与“A级人才”的渗透法则 对于人际关系中的消耗，伊薇（Evy Poumpouras）指出并不一定要决绝地与某人绝交，而是可以有策略地管理：“我不必彻底把这个人踢出生活，我只需要把他们从核心圈移到边缘一点的位置。”一个人必须时刻审视并确保自己的核心圈层足够坚固。很多时候，某个人在两三年前或许是良师益友，但时光流逝，人是会变的；人们往往执念于当年的旧情，却忽略了对方如今的状态。伊薇直言不讳地警示：“如果你周围充斥着一团混乱和闹剧（[ __ ] show），问题就出在你身上，因为是你容许它存在的。”因此，必须不动声色、平静地为自己设立内在的心理界限。 斯蒂芬（Steven Bartlett）对此深有共鸣。他回忆起史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）谈论职业生涯建构的一段视频：乔布斯强调自己的事业是建立在寻找并聚集顶级“A级人才”（A players）之上的。这些顶尖人才最奇妙的特质在于，他们极其渴望与同样优秀的A级人才共事，从而产生良性扩散效应。反之亦然——当你搭建了一个充满狗血闹剧的圈子，它就会招引更多戏剧性冲突。斯蒂芬回顾自己早期创业时发现，团队构建存在一种近乎“渗透作用”（osmosis）的规律：当团队不成熟、充满混乱和内耗时，招聘进来的也往往是同类人；而一旦开始主动引入具备经验、沉稳沉着和心理成熟度的高手，磁场就会彻底改变，优秀人才便接踵而至。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 人才与社交圈的渗透法则 accDescr: 展示优秀人才与戏剧性圈子各自的正反向循环渗透机制 subgraph PositiveCycle ["良性扩散机制（乔布斯法则）"] A["引入 A 级成熟人才"] --> B["构建沉稳/专业的团队场域"] B --> C["吸引更多同频 A 级顶尖伙伴"] end subgraph NegativeCycle ["内耗反向渗透"] D["容忍混乱与 Drama 角色"] --> E["形成情绪化、内耗的环境"] E --> F["招引更多混乱与不成熟个体"] end ``` --- ### [030:24] 角色分身与领导力气场（Ethos） 伊薇观察到斯蒂芬在播客中展现出的温暖、开放与极高包容度，并指出这可能给业务端的下属带来认知误区：员工若将播客里温和的斯蒂芬与商业决策中的管理者斯蒂芬混为一谈，就会产生预期落差。伊薇分享了自己的应对策略——一个人在不同场域必须切换不同的“人格版本”。她在讲台上授课、在演播室做新闻分析、以及在播客里对谈，展现的都是截然不同的面向。 在组建和管理团队时，伊薇会预先给员工设定预期：“听着，为了追求极致效率，有时我会非常直接，直奔主题。不要觉得自尊心受挫；如果有任何疑问随时提出，但我需要直达目标。”为了平衡这种利落的刀锋感，她会在日常中频繁播撒善意，经常表达感谢与认可。这样一来，当某天她直截了当地指出“这封邮件写得很烂，不能发出去，必须重写”时，员工就不会觉得是人身攻击或认为自己愚蠢，而是清楚地明白——只是这封邮件不行，修改重来即可。伊薇援引希腊语词汇“Ethos”（品格/气场、存在方式）强调： > “人们如何对待你，不在于你对他们说了什么，而在于他们待在你身边时的感受。如果他们感受到你原则坚定、绝不退让，他们心里自然有数……我们在特定环境中展现出特定的自我面向，最终是为了拿到想要的结果。” --- ### [032:36] 近距离观察4位美国总统：在极端审判下的心理韧性 作为在特勤局（US Secret Service）服役近12年的资深特工，伊薇曾贴身保护过比尔·克林顿（Bill Clinton）、贝拉克·奥巴马（Barack Obama）以及米歇尔·奥巴马（Michelle Obama）等核心政要。谈及从这些顶级领袖身上学到的核心品质，伊薇不假思索地提到了两个字：“韧性”（Resilience）。 伊薇描绘了一幕极具张力的常态化场景：总统正准备登台演讲、出席重大闭门会议或进行关键交涉，更衣室或后台的电视上正播放着新闻，某位政治评论员正在全屏辱骂、冷嘲热讽，贬低总统是个“蠢货”（dummy），肆无忌惮地公开抨击。面对这种足以让普通人尊严崩塌、抓狂委屈的言论风暴，总统只是静静地看一眼电视，毫无波澜地整理好讲稿与西装，大步走上台，奉献一场滴水不漏的演讲。伊薇感慨道： - 每天清晨走出白宫、坐进加长防弹车（The Beast）、走向聚光灯，明知会有铺天盖地的恶意与批判，依然能昂首迎上，这种定力“没有哪所学校可以教出来”。 - 当谈及不同领袖的特质时，伊薇提到唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）的沟通风格虽然极具争议，但其特点在于“极其直接（very direct），说出所想且毫不在意旁人眼光”，这种毫不掩饰的直率在客观上让很多人甚至产生了一种隐秘的羡慕。 - 特勤特工受纪律约束必须保持绝对的中立与“非政治化”（apolitical），特工之间甚至严禁探讨各自的投票立场。 --- ### [035:35] 绝密室内的决断艺术：剥离情绪的理性博弈 斯蒂芬追问，当面临诸如突袭巴基斯坦阿伯塔巴德抓捕本·拉登（Osama bin Laden）或应对恶性恐袭等关乎国运与生死的极端抉择时，最高领袖是如何做决定的？伊薇透露，在那些闭门会议中，顶级决策绝非由情绪驱动，而是完全基于对事实与利弊（Pros and Cons）的冷静推演。 在特勤局的职业生涯中，伊薇表示自己“几乎从未听过任何一任美国总统大吼大叫，也从未见过他们失控发飙”。高层之间的辩论虽然尖锐，但本质是高度克制的事实推演。双方会平静地摆出推演路径：“斯蒂芬，我认为这不可行。”“伊薇，为什么不行？按方案A推进会产生这些收益。”“但如果出现突发状况，导致人员伤亡怎么办？”“我的评估角度不同……”大家围坐在一起，彼此的自我（Ego）都不脆弱，情绪也不会一碰就碎，能够承受最严酷的智力与逻辑交锋。 伊薇引用了英国著名心理学与犯罪学研究者劳伦斯·阿里森与艾米莉·阿里森夫妇（Drs. Laurence & Emily Alison）的人际行为模型（以动物意象架构沟通风格），指出在博弈中掌控节奏、设定议程的人好比“狮子”（Lion）。辩论并不需要面红耳赤、拔高声调或侵入对方的安全距离。普通人做决策的最大盲区在于陷得太深、过于情绪化，甚至听到“特朗普”这样的名字都会本能地带出情绪反应。伊薇告诫：“一旦你能完全基于事实与理性做决定，情绪就会烟消云散。永远不要做一个情绪化的决策者，那绝不会有好结果，因为在浪潮裹挟中，你根本无法看清前路。” ### [38:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2288s) 站岗守卫：为小布什总统执勤的第一堂规矩课 在谈及与美国总统接触的经历时，主持人询问这是否打破了外界对国家领导人日常言行的常见误解。伊维·庞普拉斯（Evy Poumpouras）回忆了自己第一次为乔治·W·布什（George W. Bush）总统执行“站岗”（standing post）任务时的难忘经历。作为新人特工，最初根本不可能进入总统的核心紧密圈子，而是被派去守外围：提前八小时完成防爆安检后，一个人孤零零地守在一扇门前整整八小时，任务极其枯燥单调——确保没有任何未经许可的人通过这扇门。 就在伊维站岗时，一名资深高级特工前来巡查并叮嘱情况。对方得知她是新人后，严肃地询问她手机在哪里、是否已经关机或调成静音，并郑重警告：“千万别让布什听到你的手机响。只要他听见手机响，你立刻就会被遣送回家（sent home）。”布什总统要求身边必须保持绝对肃静、庄重的环境，决不允许任何手机铃声或分散注意力的杂音出现。 起初，伊维感到困惑，不理解为什么一部手机会引来如此严苛的惩处。但随着阅历增长，她深刻理解了这背后的领导力逻辑：如果环境里人人都在低头看手机、心不在焉，专注力和防务气场就会被彻底破坏。布什总统通过对这一极细微边界（boundary）的严密把控，在整个团队中树立起专注、清醒、严谨的气场。伊维立刻把手机调到彻底静音并收好，心想绝不能因为这种事情被总统亲自遣返。她由此领悟到，一名卓越的领袖正是通过对微小细节的强力约束，产生层层放大的涟漪效应，从而塑造出整个组织的环境氛围。 --- ### [40:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2452s) 严酷筛选：比哈佛还难进的特勤局选拔机制 主持人追问伊维，特勤局的选拔淘汰率到底有多残酷，以及她究竟是如何从海量申请者中脱颖而出的。伊维透露，特勤局在每位最终录用的特工身上投入的招聘与背调成本高达数万甚至十万美元。因此，在正式把候选人送入训练营之前，整个机构会动用极致繁复、严苛的漏斗机制筛选人才。从全美所有申请者中，最终被挑中进入考核流程的仅占 1% 左右，其录取难度甚至远超哈佛大学。 这套全方位的考核流程包括： - **情景案例论文撰写**：耗时数周完成大量文书，针对官方给出的突发危机与道德困境，逐一写出详尽的问题解决推演与应对策略。 - **高难度书面考试**：参加被称为“强化版 SAT”的 TEA 考试（Treasury Enforcement Agent Exam），试题难度极高，伊维考完时甚至以为自己必定落榜。 - **侵入式背景调查**：特工不仅会走访申请人的每一位邻居，连海外求学经历也不放过。伊维在大学期间曾去意大利罗马留学一学期，特勤局竟专程派出一名特工飞往意大利，当面询问她大学教授对其学术与为人表现的评价。 - **测谎测试（Polygraph）与体能考核**。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Secret Service Recruitment and Training Pipeline accDescr: A flow diagram showing the multi-step selection process from initial application to probationary period in the US Secret Service. subgraph Phase1["第一阶段：初筛与深度核查"] A["提交申请 (仅前 1% 获受理)"] --> B["TEA 笔试 & 复杂情境案例论文"] B --> C["侵入式背景调查 (含海外走访)"] C --> D["测谎仪测试 (Polygraph Exam)"] end subgraph Phase2["第二阶段：录用与训练"] D --> E["获得有条件录用通知 (Conditional Offer)"] E --> F["特勤局特训学院 (USSS Academy)"] F --> G["3 年严格试用期 (Probationary Period)"] end ``` 相比于纽约市警察局（NYPD）训练营一开始有 1500 人、教官恨不得学员主动退学的模式，特勤局特训学院（Academy）一届通常只有 54 人左右。因为官方在前期背调上耗资巨大，一旦跨入学院大门，机构本质上希望学员能够挺过训练留下来，但若有人达不到严苛标准，淘汰依然随时发生。通过特训后，还需经历长达三年的严格试用期，才算真正站稳脚跟。 --- ### [44:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2643s) 入选内核与测谎专家的识谎直觉 当回顾自己为何能成功突围时，伊维自嘲地说，最大的优势反而是自己年轻时的“无知与天真”（naiveness）。她当时根本不知道特勤局里 98% 都是男性，也不知道这扇门有多难进，抱着“为什么我不行”的纯粹冲劲就冲了进去。而特勤局在物色人才时，最看重的特质是**诚信（Integrity）与值得信赖（Trustworthiness）**。一旦申请人在表格或陈述中对年少时犯下的蠢事撒谎且被识破，会立刻被扣上“有更合适候选人”（Better Qualified Applicants, BQAs）的标签予以淘汰。特勤局的底层逻辑非常明确：如果一个人在纸面上都无法坦诚承担过错，未来在执行涉密生死任务时就绝对不可能被信任。此外，药物与毒品滥用也是零容忍红线，因为特工经常需要经手假币制造、毒品走私等重叠犯罪调查，底子必须绝对干净。 后来，伊维晋升为特勤局的专业测谎考官与审讯员，在长达八年的时间里环球执行测谎与审讯任务，成为了守护特勤局信任防线的“最后一道壁垒”。 针对日常生活中如何识别谎言与虚伪，伊维强调了两个核心维度： - **信任你的直觉（Intuition）**：普通人往往习惯压制或忽视自己身体感受到的微妙违和感，但直觉往往能第一瞬间感知到对方是否满嘴空话。 - **建立行为基线（Baseline）**：判断欺瞒绝不能脱离对象的正常行为习惯。例如在与主持人史蒂芬对谈时，伊维一直在观察他的基线——双手习惯放置的固定位置、滑动平板的操作动作，以及专注锁定的眼神交流。当话题突然转向某些敏感或引发抵触的领域（例如“谈谈你手下最难管的员工以及你如何应对”）时，只要对方眼神闪躲、视线向下移动或坐姿改变，偏离了此前的常态基线，这种微妙的行为转变就是捕捉谎言或情绪隐瞒的关键线索。 ### [47:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2845s) 测谎中的追问艺术与布鲁克林 ATM 诈骗犯 在审讯与日常沟通中，捕捉到异常信号只是第一步，真正的分水岭在于后续的反应。当对方的回答或反应偏离了基准线，多数人的本能反应是脑海中闪过一丝疑虑，随后便任由这个疑点溜走。Evy 强调，优秀的审讯者绝不能就此打住，而是必须带着强烈的好奇心步步紧逼。这种探究并非市井式的八卦窥探，而是一种敏锐的专业直觉：既然对方展现出了反常的行为举止，背后必然有特定原因在驱动，因此必须用紧密衔接的后续问题一环扣一环地追查到底。 谈及谎言的最高境界，Stephen 好奇 Evy 在职业生涯中是否遇到过真正堪称“大师级”的撒谎高手。Evy 回忆起一名从事低端 ATM 侧录（skimming）诈骗的嫌疑人。该男子在纽约布鲁克林区的各个提款机上加装自制侧录器，窃取储户的银行卡磁条信息。虽然手段相当原始，但 ATM 自带的监控摄像头清晰地拍下了他的全正面大头照——画面中他戴着一顶纽约尼克斯队（New York Knicks）的帽子。特工处不仅锁定了他的身份，提取了现场指纹并完成比对，Ev y 自信满满地认为这将是一场毫无悬念、手到擒来的审讯。 在将嫌疑人带进审讯室后，Evy 按照惯例先建立融洽关系（rapport building）。这名外籍男子表现得异常彬彬有礼，一口一个“好的，长官（Yes ma'am）”，甚至过分热情地表达自己多么渴望全力配合警方。这种“过度配合（overly cooperative）”的姿态立刻在 Evy 心中拉响了红色警报——在犯罪心理学中，过度用力扮演老实人往往是掩盖罪责的经典代偿。 --- ### [50:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3033s) “神圣干预”：说谎者最爱拉上帝作证 当 Evy 切入正题询问 ATM 盗刷案时，该男子立刻摆出一副一无所知的无辜模样。更戏剧性的是，他当天来接受问话时，头上竟然还戴着案发监控里一模一样的那顶尼克斯队球帽。Evy 觉得胜券在握，径直将高清抓拍照甩在桌面上：“既然你不知道，那照片里的这是什么？”男子定睛端详了半天，面不改色、甚至带着一丝感叹地回答：“天哪，这看起来真的很像我……但我仔细看了，不，这绝对不是我。”面对无可辩驳的铁证，他没有丝毫慌乱与动摇，死死咬住说辞绝不招供，心理素质之顽固让 Evy 至今记忆犹新。 审讯过程中，该男子反复搬出一套极具代表性的心理防御机制：“我向上帝发誓”、“上帝是我的见证人”、“上帝知道那绝不是我”。特工处内部将这种现象称为“神圣干预（divine intervention）”。当嫌疑人自身信誉彻底崩塌、无法自圆其说时，他们往往会强行把神明拉下水为自己背书。Evy 指出，在执法实践中，那些在候审室里刻意捧着《圣经》或转动玫瑰念珠（rosary beads）的人，几乎都不需要额外测谎——越是极力向外界标榜自己是虔诚教徒、绝不可能作恶的人，往往正是企图用宗教光环掩饰罪行的人。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 审讯中异常行为的识别路径 accDescr: 展示从表面异常举止到识别谎言的逻辑推理链条 subgraph Signals ["行为表象与防御机制"] A["过度配合态势<br/>(Overly Cooperative)"] B["神圣干预防御<br/>(拉上帝发誓/持念珠圣经)"] C["直面铁证死不松口<br/>(无心理动摇)"] end subgraph Assessment ["特工心智研判"] D["用力过猛：补偿心理红旗"] E["缺乏信用凭证：强拉神明背书"] end subgraph Outcome ["定罪逻辑"] F["锁定嫌疑：物证结合行为异常"] end A --> D B --> E C --> F D --> F E --> F ``` --- ### [51:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3080s) 眼神交流的双向力量：权威感与自我价值 谈及测谎与沟通时的微动作，Stephen 观察到 Evy 拥有极其专注且强大的眼神交流能力，并提出是否存在“过度眼神接触”的边界。Evy 解读道，眼神交流的核心意义并不在于某种机械的凝视时长，而在于向内外双向传递深层的心理信号： * **对外确立权威与自我存在感**：目光坦荡而不闪躲，无声地宣告着“我对自己充满自信，我配坐在这里与你平等对话，我的存在是有分量的（relevant）”。这是一种无需言语声明“我是负责人”就能确立的主场权威。 * **对内传递温度、关注与尊重**：真诚的眼神接触能让对方感受到被看见、被倾听。它向谈话对象传递清晰的信息：“你对我而言非常重要，我全身心沉浸在我们的对话中，我正在努力理解你。” 目光接触的精妙之处恰恰在于这种双向赋权：它在赋予谈话者自身分量与威严的同时，也赋予了受访者被重视的价值感，是极高明的非语言沟通工具。 --- ### [52:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3166s) 技巧无法伪造内核：Stephen 的被拒经历与内在堡垒 Stephen 由此引申到了自卑人群的肢体语言问题：那些缺乏自我认同的人往往会下意识地缩小身体占位、回避目光，市面上则充斥着传授“超人姿势（Superman posture）”等试图通过外部伪装来欺骗大脑与他人的把戏。Stephen 剖析了自己 14 岁到 23 岁之间惨痛的情感经历：在那漫长的十年里，他曾狂热追求过 5 位女孩，无一例外全以失败告终。尽管他当时如饥似渴地研读了各类把妹指南（如《迷男方法 The Game》），熟记了所有的心理套路、话术与肢体技巧，但只要深入接触，女孩们最终都会离他而去。 直到 24 岁左右，局面发生了近乎魔法般的逆转。这种改变并非源于金钱或世俗成功的暴增，而是源于他内心对自我价值认同的彻底重构。Stephen 深刻意识到，市面上的肢体语言速成法之所以失效，是因为人类拥有上千种无法自主控制的潜意识非语言微表情；当你打心底里觉得自己不够好、不配得到对方时，这些微表情无时无刻不在出卖你的低价值感。 大众热衷于点击这类播客，往往是寄希望于某种“3秒速成秘诀”，幻想听完一次对话就能在第二天牵手白马王子步入婚姻殿堂。这与社交媒体上兜售“7分钟练出六块腹肌”的虚假快餐别无二致。现实世界中，真正的改变永远建立在艰苦、漫长、毫无捷径的自我磨炼之上——只有彻底放弃通过讨好他人来获取认可的执念，在内心构建起一座坚不可摧的堡垒，从容的体态、坚定的眼神和气场才会自然而然地显现。 --- ### [56:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3377s) 自信的复利效应：从千张纸的重量到精神主权 面对 Stephen 的感慨，Evy 极为赞同地指出，世上从来不存在什么神奇的“核心秘密”。人们渴望一蹴而就的速成灵药，但真实的人格转变完全遵循复利效应（compound interest）： * **单薄纸张与千页重量**：一张纸轻飘飘毫无分量，两张、三张依然感受不到重量；但当你持续不断地把微小的正确选择叠加上去，累积到一千张纸时，它便拥有了不可撼动的厚度与沉重感。人的自信正是由日常生活中一次次微小的自律、担当与面对挑战构建起来的层层叠加物。 * **精神主权（Sovereignty）的觉醒**：当一个人真正迈入成熟强大的门槛时，其标志是获得精神层面的“主权”状态。这意味着你虽然珍视与人类的连接、享受温暖的人际关系，但在精神核心深处，你清醒地知道“我不需要任何人的许可或肯定来证明我的存在”。当不再以“索取他人认可”为生存目标时，一个人才算真正拥有了不可摧毁的内核力量。 ### [57:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3432s) 走向“主权独立”：微习惯如何重塑吸引力与应对外界评价 Evy Poumpouras 回忆自己的青春岁月时指出，当一个人不再寄希望于“寻找另一个人来完整自己”，而是达到一种完全自我接纳、精神自立的“主权独立”（Sovereign）状态——坚信“我足够好了，我现在的样子就很好”时，整个人就会变成一块磁铁。身边的人会被这种气场所吸引，渴望靠近她并探求她自信的来源。然而，这种信任自己的底气并非一蹴而就，而是伴随着微小行为模式的彻底改变： - **停止追逐与取悦**：不再盲目追逐人事物，不再向外索求认可，戒掉了“讨好型人格”（people pleasing），学会坚定地信任自己的判断。 - **停止全盘征求他人意见**：不再向身边的每个人做民意调查（taking inventory from everybody），学会自己拿主意。 - **从打击与流言中建立韧性**：在成长过程中，Evy 经历了无数次的拒绝、反对和背后的流言蜚语。正是这些沉重的打击塑造了她的坚韧，教会她无论外界环境多么嘈杂，都要坚守自己的道路。 当她决定报考纽约市警察局（NYPD）以及后来成为特工时，身边的朋友和整个社群都认为这十分荒谬可笑。这种来自环境的不理解，在她的恋爱经历中体现得尤为尖锐。 ### [58:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3506s) 约会遭遇的不适感：男性对强大女性的态度 成为特勤局特工后，Evy 在约会中经常遇到男性对其身份的误解与抵触。她分享了两个极为生动的例子： - **开餐馆的希腊老乡**：在认识丈夫之前，一位好友曾撮合她与自己的哥哥相亲。对方是一个希腊裔男生，由于文化传统强调“在社区内通婚”，Evy 赴约了。然而，历经严苛选拔才成为特勤局特工的 Evy，却在交谈中被对方轻蔑地问到：“等你结婚了，你会辞掉这份工作放弃它吗？你打算干这个干多久？”对方拥有一家餐馆，在他所在的文化与社群价值观中，成功完全等同于金钱与财富，特工这份工作在他眼里一文不值。面对这种傲慢，Evy 心想凭对方的能力用尽全力也休想进特勤局，但她凭借内心的独立主权，选择不被对方的道德指北针所绑架，根本不在意对方的轻视。 - **不知所措的意大利男生**：另一次，她与一位早就知道她是特工且刚失恋的意大利男生约会。原本 Evy 以为对方会为她考入特勤局感到骄傲，但整场约会中男生却表现得极其不自在，仿佛在看一场“怪胎秀”（freak show）。 当主持人 Steven Bartlett 询问“男人是否很难应对强大的女性”时，Evy 直言只有那些对自己缺乏自信的男人才会如此。一个内心沉稳笃定、自身拥有主权的男人，不仅不会感到威胁，还会为伴侣的成就欢呼雀跃。这也正是 Evy 最终选择嫁给一名同样沉稳、强大的特工的原因——“无论我想做什么，他都会支持我说：‘去吧！’” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 面对伴侣成就的心态差异 accDescr: 对比缺乏自信的男性与内心笃定的男性在面对强大女性时的反应 subgraph Insecure["缺乏自信的男性 (Not Confident)"] A1["感到压迫与不适"] --> B1["轻视对方职业价值 / 视为异类"] B1 --> C1["要求对方妥协或退回传统角色"] end subgraph Sovereign["内心笃定的男性 (Steady & Sovereign)"] A2["自身具备独立主权"] --> B2["毫无威胁感与竞争焦虑"] B2 --> C2["真诚喝彩并支持对方自由发展"] end ``` ### [01:00:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3630s) 46岁初为人母：抵御数字侵蚀与培养孩子的抗逆力 Evy 在 46 岁时迎来了自己的第一个孩子，目前女儿 18 个月大。Steven 提出了一个假设性难题：如果女儿到了 18 岁时变得懒惰、无法起床、怨天尤人并怪罪外界，父母该从何处入手？ Evy 回答道，父母能掌控的只有 50%，另外 50% 取决于孩子自身，但父母必须在早期建立坚固的防护结构： - **全面物理隔离数字毒素**：Evy 从未在女儿面前放过 iPhone，家中也根本没有能通电观看的电视机。她坚信自己必须掌控女儿大脑所吸收的信息，绝不能交给算法或互联网。“就像我亲自挑选食材喂养她的身体一样，我也必须亲自挑选喂养她大脑的精神食粮。” - **时代广场法则**：她常告诫其他父母：“如果你不敢把孩子扔在时代广场正中央任由陌生人上前搭话，那你就不该把智能手机塞进他们手里。”因为手机直接把外部未经验证的思想硬生生塞进孩子毫无防备的头脑中。 - **延迟满足与防范虚荣**：以前的孩子只有周六早晨才能坐在电视机前看动画片，需要耐心等待；而现在的点播让即时满足泛滥，容易滋生懒惰、焦虑和抑郁。为了避免女儿陷入名牌攀比（如嚷着买 Gucci 腰带），她在挑选学校和环境上极其谨慎。 - **扎根乡村与严控物质**：每年夏天，Evy 都会带女儿回到希腊老家的原始村庄生活数月。那里的厕所建在室外、紧挨着鸡舍，生活条件极为艰苦硬核，如同她父母当年的成长环境。在被问及是否会给女儿订商务舱时，Evy 斩钉截铁地回答“绝不，只坐经济舱”。她自己除非别人出资，否则也坚决只坐经济舱，因为每一分钱都是辛苦打拼来的，绝不让孩子滋生特权意识。 ### [01:04:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3877s) 身心合一：健身与自律是灵魂的避风港 许多人习惯将身心割裂，认为只听播客就是在锻炼心智，却任由身体荒废在沙发上。Evy 在特勤局学到的最核心一课便是：身体与心智是不可分割的“共同体”（married）。身体是承载灵魂与思维的殿堂，如果一个人陷入抑郁却拒绝活动身体，问题只会更加恶化。 - **引入外部问责机制（Accountability）**：即便是经验丰富的 Evy，也需要外部约束。她跟随知名教练唐·萨拉迪诺（Don Saladino）训练。唐要求她拍下每一顿饭的照片发送过去审查。这种问责感有效遏制了不健康的饮食冲动。 - **运动作为心理毒素的排毒阀**：特勤局的一切都以身体表现（performance）为基准。现代人善待爱车却将身体当垃圾桶对待。作为经常报道暴力犯罪、接触人性阴暗面和重大案件的新闻人，Evy 不在家里看新闻，而是选择在夜晚通过跑步和力量训练来宣泄压力与负能量。她动情地回忆起人生中压力爆棚的灰暗时刻，即使是在刺骨严寒的冬夜，她也会冲向空旷的跑道，在极度冰冷中用奔跑释放内心的重压。 ### [01:06:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3989s) 身心一体：通过身体宣泄重获情绪掌控 在天寒地冻、大雪纷飞的街道上，伊维·庞珀拉斯（Evy Poumpouras）曾任由近乎纯粹的情感与愤怒将自己吞没。她一边奔跑，一边自言自语，泪水止不住地夺眶而出。在外人眼中，她或许像个疯子，但在精疲力竭地跑完全程之后，她终于找回了原本的自己。她深刻体会到，人类往往将肉体与心灵视作两个互不相干的独立个体，但身体实际上是容纳灵魂与心智的殿堂；唯有通过身体的宣泄与照料，内心翻江倒海的情绪才能真正找到出口。 - **身心统一性**：身体活动是调节极端负面情绪（愤怒、崩溃感）的直接物理途径。 - **排解与重置**：通过极限奔跑与大哭释放生理压力，让处于崩溃边缘的神经系统迅速重回平静。 --- ### [01:07:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=4039s) 生死边缘的抉择：曼哈顿地下车库的惊魂瞬间 当主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及在特勤局职业生涯中最为恐惧的一天时，庞珀拉斯分享了一段此前从未公开披露过的经历。那天，她与搭档正驱车穿行在曼哈顿下城，准备前往特勤局与其他部门召开一场联合抓捕前简报会，以商讨次日逮捕行动的战术细节。然而，在行车途中，一名男子突然从一家珠宝店狂奔而出，身后跟着一群尖叫追赶的人群。路人认出了他们的卧底警车，惊慌失措地高喊：“救命！快抓住他！”其恐慌程度让庞珀拉斯一度以为发生了枪击案。搭档随即拉响警笛展开车辆追逐，而前方的嫌疑人身着连帽衫，对扩音器里“站住，别跑”的警告置若罔闻，拐进了一条街后径直冲入一座向下深潜的地下立体停车场。 车辆无法驶入，两名特工只得下车徒步摸黑进入。当时现场极度混乱，不明真相的民众察觉异样后纷纷仓皇逃窜。庞珀拉斯和搭档一边疏散平民，一边在昏暗的光线下向停车场底层搜索，同时高度戒备对方可能持有枪械。在底层密密麻麻的车辆缝隙间，庞珀拉斯终于发现该男子正趴在一辆汽车底下。她轻声向处于另一侧的搭档示意，但搭档未能按预定战术协同，而是操之过急地直接绕到后方试图徒手擒拿。这一贸然举动瞬间让搭档完全暴露在致命威胁之下。 庞珀拉斯迅速拔出手枪指向车底的嫌疑人，声嘶力竭地反复喝令：“让我看到你的双手！把手伸出来！”然而嫌疑人毫无反应，双手在阴影中不断蠕动。在那窒息的几秒钟内，庞珀拉斯的大脑陷入了极端的博弈与权衡： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 生死瞬间的射击决策困境 accDescr: 展示特工在嫌疑人拒绝出示双手时面临的致命双向困境 A["嫌疑人藏身车底拒绝出示双手<br/>搭档完全暴露在射击视野中"] --> B{"是否立即开枪击毙？"} subgraph 开枪选项 ["选择开枪"] B -->|"开枪"| C1["假设嫌疑人确实持枪：<br/>成功挽救搭档生命"] B -->|"开枪"| C2["假设嫌疑人未持枪：<br/>击毙非致命目标，承担致命法律与道德责任"] end subgraph 不开枪选项 ["选择暂不开枪"] B -->|"不开枪"| D1["假设嫌疑人持枪并射击：<br/>搭档当场牺牲，自己沦为失职的罪魁祸首"] B -->|"不开枪"| D2["假设嫌疑人未持枪：<br/>化解虚惊，保全无辜生命"] end ``` 在无法看清对方双手的极端劣势下，庞珀拉斯最终选择压制开枪冲动，一边大声警告“我会开枪的！伸手！”，一边暗自祈祷对方没有拔枪。搭档趁机从后方一把扑倒嫌疑人，对方这才惊恐尖叫：“别开枪！我投降！”将其制服戴上手铐后，庞珀拉斯愤怒地掀开对方的连帽衫，愕然发现被捕者竟然只是一个16岁的未成年孩子。搜身结果显示，这名少年身上根本没有任何武器，仅仅是从珠宝店偷走了一个大号十字架金吊坠。庞珀拉斯查验他的身份证后愤怒而痛心地训斥：“你知不知道我刚才差点一枪打死你？你差点为了一条愚蠢的镀金十字架丢掉性命！”这一事件给庞珀拉斯留下了难以磨灭的心理震荡：她曾多次身处自己直面死亡的险境并坦然处之，但险些因为误判而夺走一个懵懂少年的生命，成为她职业生涯中最深刻的恐惧。 --- ### [01:12:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=4334s) 重塑心理健康认知：正常化负面情绪与“充实感” 面对现代社会对抑郁症、焦虑症等心理障碍的广泛讨论，庞珀拉斯提出了自己独特的心理健康哲学。她坦言自己从未真正陷入病理性的心理失调，并非因为她是“没有情绪的超人”，而是因为她始终将自己视作内心世界的“掌舵人（Governor）”，绝不任由自己沉溺在消极状态中。她坚决反对现代社会将所有负面情绪病态化的倾向： - **焦虑与恐惧的合理性**：焦虑是一种自然的生存机制。在特勤局接受魔鬼特训的每一天、每次穿上防弹背心、随身携带调至全自动模式可造成毁灭性伤害的 MP5 冲锋枪保护总统时，她每天都在经历真实的焦虑与警惕，这种紧绷感是保持警觉与胜任工作的必要条件。 - **反对过度药物治疗与虚假幸福**：庞珀拉斯批评了美国电视广告中充斥的处方药宣传模式——似乎只要感到悲伤或焦虑，就必须服药来维持全天候挂在脸上的虚伪笑容。她强调：“我人生的衡量基准绝不是‘快乐’。” - **充实感胜过单纯的快乐**：回顾过往成就最非凡事业的瞬间，她从未感到轻松愉悦。例如在寒冬凌晨三点醒来，顶着刺骨严寒在椭圆形办公室外连续站岗十个小时，身体冻得僵硬麻木，那一刻绝对谈不上“快乐”，但在内心深处，油然而生的是“我竟然站在这里守护国家”的巨大成就感与充实感。 --- ### [01:14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=4441s) 总统安保的铜墙铁壁与真正的安保软肋 当主持人追问是否曾有一刻真切觉得总统面临迫在眉睫的刺杀威胁时，庞珀拉斯做出了辨证的回答。在大型户外活动（例如总统面对上万名观众演讲）中，由于开阔环境的不可控因素急剧增多，安保威胁级别确实会飙升到顶点。然而，特勤局之所以能够维持极高水准的安全保障，是因为其背后部署了公众视野之外、精密交织的多层防御矩阵： - **隐形防御力量**：高处常驻狙击手小组、隐蔽待命的反突击小组（Counter Assault Team, CAT）。 - **空间管制与特种监测**：实施严格的低空禁飞区指令（限制民航与私人飞机掠空），以及针对核辐射、生物化学威胁的专业探测协议。 庞珀拉斯指出，总统本人享受着特勤局“最高规格的一切资源与警备（all the bells and whistles）”，遭遇致命漏洞的概率反而极低；相反，那些难以维持全方位严密布防、充满随机活动轨迹的保护对象——例如前总统乔治·W·布什（George W. Bush）的女儿芭芭拉·布什（Barbara Bush）等年轻家庭成员，在其日常生活中维持安全警戒往往面临更大挑战。 ### [01:15:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=4526s) 保护总统家属与绝密特工保密协议的瓦解 保卫任务中最令人头疼的挑战之一，并不是面对装备精良的成熟政要，而是负责第一家庭的年轻子女。Evy 回忆起自己负责保护前总统的女儿时，深感那段任务之艰难。与保护总统本人调动的庞大国家级资源不同，保护家属时能调配的资源极其有限。而对方正值青春年华，渴望像普通女孩一样社交、约会、泡夜店、参加大型聚会。Evy 甚至不得不陪她去科切拉音乐节（Coachella）——在漫山遍野、数以万计甚至几十万人狂欢的露天人海中，特工脑子里紧绷的唯一一根弦就是“必须保证她的生命安全”。在环境完全失控且资源匮乏的极端场景下，既要让年轻人享受生活，又要防范一切潜在威胁，那种如履薄冰的不安感几乎达到了顶峰。 当主持人问及特工退役后到底有哪些话题属于“绝对红线”时，Evy 直言，任何涉及汽车防弹重量、特种防护装置的机械与技术细节都绝不能透露。因为访谈节目除了普通听众，还会有心怀恶意的敌对势力（Bad actors）在暗中监听以搜集袭击所需的情报。诸如“空军一号”（Air Force One）内部的具体细节、特工护卫总统时的精准站位图谱（外人看似普通站立，实则有一套严密的几何坐标与动线机制）、车队移动逻辑，以及遭遇刺杀突袭时的防卫动线，都属于绝密范畴。“那就像一场精密排练的舞蹈，普通人根本看不透背后的战术逻辑。” 令人唏嘘的是，特勤局最初甚至不需要员工签署保密协议（NDA）。在很长一段时间里，特工团队纯粹依靠极高的职业荣誉感与彼此之间的信任制度运作。直到后来有一位特工公开发表了越界言论，机构才不得不引入强制性保密协议，终结了那个全靠荣誉维系的纯真时代。 - **高危安保场景**：在资源有限的情况下陪同受保护人家属前往科切拉（Coachella）音乐节等人流无法控管的巨型活动。 - **不可公开的技术红线**：特种车辆重量与内部防御机械、空军一号机密构造、护卫队形战术图谱与移动动线、实战突防推演细节。 - **协议变迁**：过去全靠同行荣誉守则（Honor System）维系，因个别特工出书披露细节后，全面推行保密协议（NDA）。 --- ### [01:17:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=4655s) 拒绝“冒名顶替综合征”与职场无视偏见的应对 谈及初入特勤局时团队里男性比例高达 98% 的极端失衡环境，主持人询问面对铺天盖地的歧视、偏见言论与排挤，她是否曾产生过所谓的“冒名顶替综合征”（Imposter Syndrome），怀疑自己不配待在那里。Evy 对这个词表现出了强烈的反感。她指出，据她了解，这个概念最初正是由心理学研究者专门针对女性群体生造出来的标签，她绝不允许这种自我否定的思维在脑中生根占地。“我为了走到这个位置拼尽了全力，我付出了血的代价才站在这里。我从来没有这种不配感。我的天真与某种‘无知’反而保护了我——我的字典里根本没有‘我不该待在这儿’的预设叙事。如果说我不配，那又是按照谁的标准？” 她并不否认自己承受过艰难的偏见。刚进入特勤局不久的一次任务简报会上，屋子里全是一群资深男特工，主讲的长官在发言时与屋内的每一个人都轮流进行了眼神交锋，却唯独彻底无视 Evy，整个简报期间视线完全绕过她。后来这位长官成了她的直属领导，依然常常把她当空气。Evy 直觉很清楚：对方只是因为她是女性而感到浑身不自在。但她没有自怨自艾或陷入内耗，心里只有坚定的一句话：“无论你怎么看我，我都凭实力赢得了坐在这张桌子旁的资格。” --- ### [01:19:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=4779s) 职场副语言学与“发言信用分”（Contribution Score） 针对职场中许多人抱怨“主管不尊重我”或“同事根本不听我说话”的痛点，Evy 指出，人们往往只把注意力放在会议讲稿和文字内容上，却完全忽略了**副语言学（Paralinguistics）**的威力。声音的投射力、语调（Pitch）、语气以及句尾的声调起伏，直接决定了别人如何接收信息。如果在提出问题时声音微弱、犹犹豫豫地嘟囔“我有个问题……”，听众的大脑会瞬间神游；反之，若用沉稳有力、向下落定的语调坚定发声，呈现出的气场完全不同。更关键的是，许多职场倡导盲目鼓吹“必须让所有人听到你的声音”、“必须在会议桌上占有一席之地”，导致大量女性和职场人陷入“为了发言而发言”的误区。Evy 直言：“如果你没有真正有价值、有建设性的内容，那就彻底闭嘴。我在一半以上的会议里都选择不说话，因为当时我确实没有什么必须补充的价值。” 主持人对此深表共鸣，并结合自身十余年的董事会管理经验提出了“发言信用分”（Contribution Score）的概念。在任何组织或会议室中，每个人都在无形中拥有一个像信用卡积分一样的信用分，它由该成员在过去无数次发言中所提供的实际价值积累而成： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 职场发言信用分机制 accDescr: 对比低信用分与高信用分发言者在会议中引发的团队反应 subgraph LowScore ["为了说话而说话（低信用分）"] L1["无准备、发散式发言<br/>（'要不搞个弹窗或发几条 TikTok？'）"] --> L2["引发团队隐秘白眼与不耐烦"] L2 --> L3["观点未讲完即被迅速打断或直接忽视"] end subgraph HighScore ["深思熟虑后发言（高信用分）"] H1["平素保持沉默与倾听<br/>仅在核心节点抛出深刻见解"] --> H2["全场瞬间安静并集体前倾倾听"] H2 --> H3["哪怕打断他人也能立即获得最高注意力与尊重"] end ``` - **低贡献分案例**：纽约办公室曾有一名员工，每次头脑风暴未想清楚就抢着开口：“要不然做个……弹窗？或者搞几条 TikTok……”，久而久之信用分透支，只要他一张嘴，身旁的同事就会暗中翻白眼，在他话还没说完前就将其直接否决。 - **高贡献分案例**：英国办公室一位名叫 Paul 的资深主管平日极少开口，但每次说话都字字珠玑、深思熟虑。他一旦出声，哪怕打断别人，全场也会瞬间鸦雀无声、所有人转过头前倾专注聆听。 - **享受作为全场“最无知者”的红利**：Evy 强调，许多人误以为安静就等于没有贡献，事实上无意义的废话反而在掠夺团队精力。她自己在参加影视经纪团队讨论时，若发现自己是“全屋子里最不懂行的人”，反而会感到无比兴奋与享受，因为这正是收敛自我、向顶尖聪明人全力吸收洞见的绝佳机会。 ### [01:24:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5067s) 中场赞助：为高强度专注提供全天能量的抹茶饮品 斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Stephen Bartlett）向听众揭晓了播客录制时摆在自己面前的“CEO 日记”马克杯里的秘密。面对长达三小时的深度对话、有时甚至一天要连录三场的高强度工作，杯中装的饮品正是 PerfectTed。斯蒂芬曾在商业投资节目《龙穴》（Dragon's Den）中投资了这家初创公司，如今它已从一个单纯的商业想法成长为英国增速最快的能量饮料品牌。 与传统能量饮料容易引发的心悸、手抖及随后的精力断崖式崩溃（crash）不同，这款抹茶能量饮品能提供稳定持久的“全天能量”。斯蒂芬坦言，无论是在播客深度交谈中、舞台演讲时还是董事会会议上，精力突然崩盘都是极其致命的；保持高度专注与稳定状态是他在商业和播客事业中的巨大竞争优势。 - **品牌背景**：斯蒂芬通过《龙穴》投资的天然抹茶能量饮料品牌，主打平稳提神、不心悸、无能量崩溃。 - **购买渠道与优惠**：在英国各大 Tesco、Waitrose 超市或官网均有销售，结账输入专属折扣码 `diary 10` 可享 10% 优惠。 --- ### [01:25:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5137s) 受害者心态的诱惑与个人责任的逃避 斯蒂芬与伊维（Evy Poumpouras）探讨了人性的一个深刻弱点：为什么大多数人下意识地抗拒承担个人责任，反而倾向于将自己塑造成“受害者”。承担责任就像在自己面前立起一面镜子，强迫自己直视不堪与不足；相比之下，把生活的失败与不幸归咎于外部世界——指责政府、运气、父母的偏心、背叛自己的前任或渣男——在心理感受上要轻松、舒适得多。 斯蒂芬分享了一段过往经历：畅销书作家马克·曼森（Mark Manson）初次做客播客时曾透露，他在撰写书稿时通常会邀请 500 位随机读者在 Google 文档中提前试读。然而奇怪的是，每当读者翻阅到强调“个人责任（Personal Responsibility）”的章节时，大约有 10% 的人会直接关闭文档放弃阅读。他们抗拒被告知“当下的境遇是由自己的选择决定的”，更不愿相信自己其实有能力改变命运。受害者心态不仅巧妙免除了个体的一切过错，更给内心的痛苦与颓废披上了一层理直气壮的受害正当性外衣，让许多人沉湎其中无法自拔。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 面对人生困境时的两种心态路径对比 accDescr: 对比受害者心态与承担个人责任两种不同心理路径及产生的最终结果。 subgraph VictimPath["受害者心态（外部归因）"] V1["遭遇挫折 / 创伤经历"] --> V2["怪罪父母、前任、体制或运气"] V2 --> V3["免除自我过错 / 获得痛苦正当性"] V3 --> V4["停滞不前，受害者标签成为终身身份"] end subgraph ResponsibilityPath["个人责任（内部归因）"] R1["遭遇挫折 / 创伤经历"] --> R2["直面现实，拒绝让过去定义未来"] R2 --> R3["掌控当下与明天的具体行动"] R3 --> R4["摆脱恐惧枷锁，夺回生活主导权"] end ``` --- ### [01:27:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5239s) 当创伤成为身份：保时捷后面的笨重拖车 伊维对此深有同感，她指出许多人已经把“痛苦经历”内化成了自己的全部身份认同。在新冠疫情期间，伊维曾利用工作空档开展了一对一的咨询与指导。当时一位身为专业心理治疗师的女性前来求助。这位女性童年极度贫困，背负着照顾弟弟的巨大压力（即心理学上的“亲职化创伤”）。她把成年后所有的公开演讲焦虑、社交障碍与人生停滞，完全归咎于童年那段经历，并不断罗列各种临床诊断名词。 伊维在耐心倾听后向她提出建议：“为什么不把过去发生的事留在原地呢？你渴望在人生中大展宏图，这就像你刚给自己买了一辆崭新的保时捷跑车，却在车尾死死拴着一辆巨大的 U-Haul 货运拖车，导致车速永远超不过 50 或 60 码。我们把拖车卸在过去，轻装前行不好吗？”令伊维震惊的是，这位治疗师当场情绪失控，愤怒质问：“你怎么敢轻描淡写地否定我的经历？你怎么敢这样对我说话！”她并不想要解决方案，也不想放下过去的包袱；那段不幸的创伤就是她赖以定义自我的核心，她只想沉溺其中，不断向外界索取同情与合理化认可。 --- ### [01:28:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5334s) 两种幸存者：深陷废墟与重获新生 为了进一步说明创伤如何吞噬一个人，伊维分享了自己在“9·11”恐怖袭击事件中的亲身经历。当天她在世界贸易中心现场死里逃生，差点丧命，多位挚友和特勤局同事在那场灾难中牺牲。然而在灾难之后，幸存者们走上了截然不同的人生轨迹： - **反刍创伤的急救员 Jerry**：一名现场急救员目睹了与伊维完全相同的惨烈景象，震后彻底陷入心理崩溃。他频繁打电话向伊维哭诉痛苦，并将全部精力投入到无休止的高强度心理咨询中。伊维曾力劝他停止一遍遍复述恐怖细节：“医学誓言强调‘首先不造成伤害’（Do no harm），咨询应当是帮助你向前看的。如果我每周都去跟咨询师详谈 9/11 的惨状，我整个人也早就废了。”遗憾的是，Jerry 始终无法走出过去，最终辞去了工作，婚姻破裂离婚，整个人生分崩离析。 - **将灾难刻在身上的钢铁工人**：伊维离开特勤局转行做记者后，曾因制作 9/11 纪念专题采访过一名钢铁工人。对方并不知道伊维也是幸存者。采访时，伊维发现该男子的双臂文满了世贸双塔与 9/11 相关的文身，家里甚至专门辟出一整间房间陈列各类纪念物。这种完全将创伤具象化、时刻将自己锁在灾难现场的极端心态令伊维感到窒息。相比之下，伊维因 9/11 获得的最高荣誉英勇勋章（Valor Award）一直被她收纳在床底下，从不拿出来向外人炫耀或博取同情。 很多人的交流习惯被创伤完全绑架，初次见面就会滔滔不绝地讲述“你知道我经历过什么吗”、“我正在从某某创伤中恢复”。创伤成了他们唯一的故事与社交货币，失去这段痛苦，他们甚至不知道自己是谁。 --- ### [01:32:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5523s) 在恐惧弱小时扼杀它：夺回生活的主导权 面对斯蒂芬关于“无法释怀创伤究竟会造成何种实质危害”的提问，伊维给出了斩钉截铁的回答：“我不是‘9·11 幸存者’，我是伊维！那仅仅是我人生中某一天发生的一场经历，凭什么让短短的一天来定义我剩下的整个人生？绝不可能（Fuck no）！” 如果放任创伤定义自己，代价将是被恐惧彻底摧毁——不敢踏入高层建筑、不敢乘坐民航客机，最终沦为世界的俘虏。为了不让心理阴影滋生蔓延，在 9/11 事件发生仅仅三周后，伊维便强迫自己迈步登上了飞机。她强调：“必须在恐惧还弱小的时候果断扼杀它，绝不能让它长成无法控制的怪物。” 伊维坦言，人虽然无法掌控世间降临的一切厄运，但在很大程度上能够掌控自己面对厄运的态度与人生的最终走向。一个人必须主动选择去承担责任、选择走出阴影。同时，面对身边那些主动选择沉沦、将受害者身份当成安全茧房的人，最清醒的做法就是“随他们去”——不要试图去拯救一个不想改变的人。无论是在企业招募员工、寻找恋爱对象还是日常社交中，必须保持敏锐的辨识力：远离那些沉溺于受害者心态的人，因为他们的负能量和自我感动最终会吞噬身边的一切。 ### [01:33:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5611s) 受害者心态与对无力感的成瘾 斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）分享了最近与一位好友的真实对话：朋友不停地倾诉生活与工作中的重重问题，当斯蒂芬提醒对方“这份工作是你自己选的，而且你随时可以辞职”时，对方居然被“自己其实拥有选择权”这一事实深深冒犯了。尽管那位朋友最终承认自己在经济上毫无后顾之忧、完全有能力离开，但对方根本对“选择”不感兴趣。斯蒂芬直言自己完全无法理解这种心态：“你为什么不想在这件事上掌握主动权？为什么渴望被剥夺力量？”他观察到对方极其渴望成为环境的牺牲品，哪怕客观上人们会遭遇并非自身过错的不幸与创伤，但客观不幸与“拒绝采取任何行动改变现状”完全是两码事。 埃维·庞珀拉斯（Evy Poumpouras）对此深表赞同，指出向外界求助的人中，绝大部分只是想倾倒负能量，极少数人才是真正想要向前迈进。拥有法医心理学（Forensic Psychology）硕士学位的埃维从语言和行为模式上给出了识别受害者心态的核心特征： - **频繁使用第一人称自我指涉**：在交谈或邮件中不断重复“我、我、我”（“我觉得”、“我想要”、“我经历了什么”）。这种极度自我聚焦（Self-focused）的言辞模式通常与严重的抑郁和焦虑高度相关。 - **情绪化与自我沉溺**：尽管普通人也会偶尔陷入受害者心境，但常态化沉溺其中并将其作为核心性格特质的人，往往被情绪所绑架。 - **生理激素与应激反应成瘾**：反复倾诉创伤、挑起冲突与人际戏剧化（Drama）会刺激身体分泌皮质醇（Cortisol）与肾上腺素（Adrenaline），触发“战斗、逃跑或僵住”（Fight, Flight, Freeze, 简称 F3）的极端峰值体验。埃维以自己上周在保时捷（Porsche）开赛车绕桩的经历做类比——高速驾驶时肾上腺素激增让人感觉无比专注、真实与鲜活；而沉溺于创伤与冲突的人，同样是将应激峰值当成了确认自身存在感的生理快感，最终演变成一种病态的生理与心理成瘾。 ### [01:37:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5829s) 创伤作为身份勋章与自我主权的丧失 斯蒂芬进一步剖析了受害者心态在当代文化中的社会心理诱因。他指出，创伤如今成了人们换取归属感与人生意义的捷径——一旦给自己贴上某种创伤幸存者的标签，便能立刻融入一个同病相怜的群体，在社群甚至社交媒体小圈子里获得理解与关注；若放下创伤，反倒意味着放弃自身的存在意义与社交圈。埃维对此表示强烈赞同，并尖锐地指出当今社会已将创伤变成了某种“荣誉勋章”，人们甚至在暗中攀比“谁过得更惨、谁承受的痛苦更多”，以此博取公众关注与虚妄的社会地位。 埃维强调，这种依赖创伤建立群体认同的机制，在本质上与黑帮成员或恐怖组织吸收新人的心理如出一辙——人们加入群体并非因为天生邪恶，而是极度恐惧孤独与被边缘化。然而，为了融入集体而把创伤固化为终身叙事（“我是某某事件的幸存者”），实质上是彻底放弃了个人的独立主权（Sovereignty）。埃维指出，痛苦的经历只是生命中发生过的客观事实，绝不能代表一个人本身的全部。她之所以将自己的著作命名为《成为防弹之人》（*Becoming Bulletproof*），正是因为“成为”代表着永不停止的动态进化，而非将自己永远禁锢在受害者的旧躯壳之中。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 创伤认同的心理成瘾闭环 accDescr: 展示创伤经历如何演化为受害者叙事、生理激素刺激、社交群体认同并最终导致个人主权丧失的心理闭环 subgraph PsychologicalCycle ["心理与生理成瘾闭环"] A["经历创伤与困难事件"] --> B["反复诉苦与挑起戏剧冲突"] B --> C["分泌皮质醇与肾上腺素<br/>(触发 F3 峰值体验)"] C --> D["依赖刺激获得'鲜活感'与生理成瘾"] D --> B end subgraph SocialTrap ["社会认同与主权陷阱"] B --> E["将创伤转化为核心身份标签<br/>(高频使用'我'自我聚焦)"] E --> F["获得特定创伤群体的归属感<br/>(寻求地位、关注与虚假勋章)"] F --> G["害怕失去身份而拒绝改变"] G --> H["彻底丧失个人主权与行动力"] end ``` ### [01:39:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5972s) 卧底行动：伪装成东欧人口贩运受害者 当斯蒂芬问及职业生涯中最不可思议、宛如电影情节的一天时，埃维分享了一段此前从未公开过的极度危险的卧底经历。由于埃维的外貌完全不像传统的联邦特工，纽约特勤局与纽约市警察局（NYPD）在联手调查一起跨国重案时特意征召她担任卧底。该案的目标是一个手段极其凶悍、行事极其严密的阿尔巴尼亚（Albanian）有组织犯罪团伙。该团伙专门对外贩售真实的护照原件及出生证明，其买家涵盖了各类跨国恐怖分子及意图非法潜入美国的极度危险分子，常规侦查手段根本无法渗透。 办案团队经过缜密策划，决定让埃维假扮一名来自东欧前社会主义阵营国家的性贩运（Sex Trafficking）受害者。埃维解释了这一人设的现实逻辑：跨国人口贩运网络在将女性诱骗至美国的第一时间就会没收其所有证件，迫使其在脱衣舞俱乐部或地下色情场所工作以偿还虚构的高额“偷渡债务”；失去证件的受害者在美无法租房、无法办理电话卡，更因害怕被遣返而任凭犯罪网络摆布。基于这一背景，埃维通过另一名卧底与犯罪头目搭上线，谎称自己的证件被控制者扣留，急需购买一套新的真实身份文件自救。 为了在与犯罪头目的接触中不露破绽，埃维充分利用了自己在大学主修表演的台词功底，以及在纽约皇后区（Queens）移民家庭环境长大的敏锐听觉，日夜苦练地道的东欧英语口音。埃维严肃地表示，这种伪装绝非儿戏，“在现实世界中，哪怕露出一丝破绽，见面的瞬间就会换来一颗爆头的子弹”。在多次极为逼真的电话交涉成功博取对方初步信任后，头目终于同意接见她以获取护照照片，埃维只身踏入了生死未卜的接头现场。 ### [01:42:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=6157s) 卧底行动：智斗伪造证件贩子 伊薇·庞波拉斯（Evy Poumpouras）回忆起一次针对伪造证件贩子的卧底任务。目标嫌疑人对外以建筑工为掩护。行动当天，伊薇穿着一身年轻女性的便装，但特意搭配了一双运动鞋——以防现场突发意外时能够拔腿就跑。她带着护照照片来到嫌疑人作为幌子的窝点。进门后对方先是敷衍推脱说人不在，让她在原地等待，在外围监控的特工团队正密切注视着一切。在行动前的准备中，团队曾反复讨论伊薇是否应该携带窃听器或配枪，但伊薇最终决定“两手空空”，什么都不带。虽然这让她处于极度脆弱的境地，但她深知一旦对方用金属探测器搜身或进行搜查，发现设备将意味着致命危险，“他们会当场把我干掉”。 目标终于现身，并试图诱骗伊薇坐进他的车里。而行动简报曾对伊薇三令五申：无论发生什么，绝不能上他的车。伊薇坚决拒绝上车，假装胆怯推脱道：“不不不，我不上车。”因为她需要确保自己始终处于外围特工的视线之内。拉扯之间，她将装有约5,000美元现金的信封和护照照片交给了对方。嫌疑人收下钱后表示两周后再来取证件，还轻浮地补了一句：“也许到时候你就会坐进我的车里了。” 两周后，伊薇依约前往，成功拿到了证件——那是一本货真价实、真实的波兰护照和配套的出生证明。为了让联邦检察官有足够的证据对其提起重诉以争取更长刑期，单笔交易远远不够。伊薇灵机一动，顺水推舟地对嫌疑人说：“我还有很多朋友，我可以给你带更多姑娘过来。”随后，伊薇陆续引荐了更多假扮买家的卧底女性特工以及纽约市警察局（NYPD）的女警，进行了多次买卖交易。最终，证据链完备，联邦检察官点头批准，执法团队一举将该犯罪分子抓捕归案。 当被问及当时是否害怕时，伊薇坦言自己完全不害怕。因为她拥有一个独特的安全屏障：从没有嫌疑人会认为她是一名警察或特工——“我看起来不像特工，说话也不像特工”。 - 卧底策略与风险控制： - 穿着运动鞋以便随时脱身，拒绝佩戴窃听器和武器，避免搜身暴露导致生命危险。 - 恪守行动铁律：坚决不上嫌疑人的车，确保自身始终暴露在外围监控视线中。 - 钓鱼取证策略：以“引荐更多姐妹买证件”为借口，协同多名卧底女特工与女警完成连环交易，坐实多项重罪指控。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 卧底取证抓捕流程 accDescr: 展示从初步接头、风险规避到多笔交易最后成功抓捕的全流程 subgraph 接头与初次交易 A["伪装前往窝点<br/>(无配枪/无窃听/穿运动鞋)"] --> B["嫌犯诱导上车<br/>(坚决拒绝以保持外围视线)"] B --> C["交付护照照片与5,000美元"] C --> D["两周后复命：获得真实波兰护照及证件"] end subgraph 扩大战果与抓捕 D --> E["借口引荐更多女性朋友<br/>(引入NYPD及卧底女特工)"] E --> F["完成多笔买卖交易锁定铁证"] F --> G["联邦检察官批准起诉并实施抓捕"] end ``` --- ### [01:45:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=6324s) “被低估”是一种劣势，还是优势？ 史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）指出，长相不像特工固然在卧底行动中如鱼得水，但在正规职业生涯中，外表的反差难免会让人遭受低估。他提到自己前不久在伦敦一场关于多样性、公平与包容（DEI）的女性领导力峰会上演讲时，许多女性、黑人及少数群体最关心的痛点正是“因肤色或性别而被低估该如何应对”。史蒂芬回忆起自己18岁大学辍学创业时的经历：顶着爆炸头、系着廉价领带走进会议室，面对全场年龄是自己三倍、西装革履的年长男性，对方眼里写满了“这小子到底是谁”。史蒂芬向伊薇抛出核心问题：被低估究竟是劣势，还是一种优势？ 伊薇回答道：“这完全取决于你选择如何看待它。”为了说明这一点，她分享了一段在博茨瓦纳（巧合的是，这也是史蒂芬的出生地哈博罗内所在的国家）执行任务的经历。当时，伊薇作为助理随行安保组长（Assistant Detail Leader），带领团队负责保护乔治·W·布什总统的女儿芭芭拉·布什（Barbara Bush，注：口误更正）在非洲的非营利慈善行程。在酒店会议室里，伊薇独自一人准备主持行动简报会。此时，一名从其他地区调派过来的特工推门走入，看到伊薇后顺口问道：“你是随行工作人员还是实习生？工作人员的办公室在走廊尽头，要我带你过去吗？” 面对这种以貌取人的误判，伊薇没有流露丝毫怒气，神色如常地淡定回应：“不，我是庞波拉斯特工。我就是主持这次简报会的人，很高兴认识你。”一句话直接亮明了自己是其主管领导的身份，让对方瞬间语塞。伊薇表示，面对这种轻视，你可以坐在那里生闷气，也可以直接耸耸肩置之不理：“有时我就想，谁在乎呢？我根本不能在这些琐事上耗费精力，人生有些事需要较真，而有些事根本不值一提。” --- ### [01:48:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=6494s) 测谎学校的心魔：被害心态与内在叙事 伊薇进一步讲述了关于身份认同对人心态影响的深刻案例。当年她入选前往美国国防部下属极其严苛的测谎学校（Polygraph School）接受审讯专家培训，学员皆是来自各联邦机构的精英。某天放学后，她与同为特工的非裔同侪“K”一起步行回酒店。K一路沉默寡言，伊薇察觉异样后询问缘由。K情绪低落反问：“你刚才注意到教室里的情况了吗？我是全班唯一的黑人。”伊薇愣了一下，在脑海中快速盘点了一遍才意识到：“天哪，K，你说的没错，你确实是唯一的黑人。”紧接着K看着她说：“而你也是全班唯一的女特工。”伊薇再次回想，发现自己同样是唯一的女性。 那一刻伊薇感到十分心酸，因为在过去的几周里，她自己完全没有往这方面想过，而K却深受这一身份标签的折磨。这种内在叙事彻底改变了K的行为模式：由于坚信自己不受欢迎，K开始自我孤立。伊薇多次叫他一起跟特工团队出去聚餐，K总是推脱：“但他们又没单独邀请我。”伊薇直言反驳：“老兄，你不需要什么特别邀请，他们也没单独请我，大家都是直接一起去！”然而，K坚信因为自己是黑人、伊薇是女人，他们就注定被排斥。 即使伊薇再三向他保证“那些男特工根本不在乎你是黑人还是我是女人”，K依然固执地等待一份“专属的正式邀请”。最终，伊薇不得不私下找到其他特工同事：“帮我个忙，你们能去敲敲K的房门请他吃晚饭吗？他以为只是我想叫他，他觉得你们不欢迎他。”男特工们听后一脸茫然，他们原本压根没有任何排挤之意。伊薇感慨，K在心理上将自己困在了一个受害者的狭隘牢笼里，并在里面痛苦生活，而这种内心的自我设限往往比外界的歧视更加致命。 史蒂芬深有同感地补充道，这引出了一个发人深省的问题：**究竟是歧视本身伤害更大，还是‘你认为自己正在遭受歧视’的这种信念伤害更大？** 史蒂芬分享了自己18、19岁创业初期身无分文时的真实心态：当时社会上设立了专门资助“年轻非裔创业者”的专项补助金，普通人或许会觉得这是天上掉馅饼，但史蒂芬内心却产生了一种强烈的排斥与反感——他极度渴望凭借自己的真正实力赢得认可，而非依靠肤色施舍。 ### [01:51:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=6684s) 标签理论与刻板印象威胁：不要让外界定义自我 斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）探讨了社会学与心理学中的“标签理论”（Labeling Theory）和“刻板印象威胁”（Stereotype Threat）。他提到，当学生在考试中拿了“F”等成绩时，往往会在潜意识里将自己内化为“我就是一个失败者（an F）”；而在研究中，如果在数学考试前让女性勾选性别，或者在测试前让黑人填写种族选项，他们的表现就会明显变差。斯蒂芬表示，他极度抗拒因为肤色或身份获得所谓的“优待”或扶持，因为那潜意识里传递着“你不够好才需要特殊关照”的讯息。他始终提醒自己，绝不能把种族作为不全力以赴的借口。 伊维·庞珀拉斯（Evy Poumpouras）对此深表赞同，指出刑事司法领域同样深受标签理论影响：一旦某人被贴上“罪犯”或“违法者”的标签，他们再次犯罪的几率就会大幅上升，因为这一标签让人在心理上默认自己就是个坏人。谈及自身经历，伊维坦言，每当有人问她“作为一名女性特工是什么感觉”时，她内心总会产生一阵刺痛。她常常反驳：“你们坐在这把椅子上采访男特工时，会问他们同样的问题吗？我也是名特工，我的职位是自己靠实力挣来的，凭什么要被区别对待？”每当在网络上看到有人把她贬低为“政治正确的象征性女性雇员（token hire）”时，她都感到无比愤怒，因为外界根本不知道她付出了多大的代价才站在那里。 ### [01:53:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=6837s) 特工训练中的双重标准与疯狂超越 伊维回忆了自己在特工处新特工训练期间遭遇的一件令人极度不悦的经历。直到入职受训后，她才得知体能测试居然有专门的“男性标准”和“女性标准”——按照女性标准，她不需要跑得像男学员那么快，也不需要做相同数量的引体向上或俯卧撑。当时一名男学员特意跑到她面前挑衅：“你知道吧，你能来这里可是得到了特殊优待的，我们和你们的标准根本不一样。”这番话让她当晚回宿舍后心情糟透了。 面对这种羞辱，伊维内心交织着愤怒与理智：一方面她愤怒于对方的无礼，认定自己完全有资格留在那里；但另一方面，她也清楚男学员指出的“标准不同”是客观事实。于是伊维做出了一个坚决的决定——绝不依赖任何降级标准。她开始像个疯子一样在清晨和深夜拼命疯狂苦练，誓要达到并超过男性体格合格线。伊维提到，班里另外一两名女学员对此毫不在意、坦然接受女性降级标准，她虽然不予评判各人的选择，但在她看来，一名真正的特工如果连一个引体向上都做不了，在生死攸关的实战前线绝对是不可接受的。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 面对双重标准的心理转变与行动路径 accDescr: 展示从遭遇区别对待到疯狂训练自证，再到看透偏见本质的心路历程。 A["得知训练存在男女体能双重标准<br/>遭遇同僚嘲讽为特殊优待"] --> B{"内心两种声音的碰撞"} B --> C["愤怒：我有资格留在这里"] B --> D["理智：客观标准确实存在差距"] C & D --> E["自我行动：开启疯狂训练模式<br/>清晨与深夜加练，对齐男性标准"] E --> F["结果：用实力达标但仍有闲言碎语"] F --> G["最终觉醒：偏见是对方的问题<br/>不再浪费有限生命去向所有人证明"] ``` ### [01:55:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=6949s) 能量防护罩：偏见客观存在，但不必成为你的负担 斯蒂芬与伊维深入探讨了面对结构性不公与个人精力分配的矛盾。他们强调，承认客观世界存在偏见与歧视，并不意味着必须把自己的人生精力耗费在“纠正遇见的每一个傻瓜”上。伊维回忆起自己的移民家庭背景：父亲是希腊人，但肤色偏深、操着浓重的中东口音，每次在机场过安检时，伊维和兄弟都知道父亲绝对会被单独拉进小黑屋盘查。看到父亲遭受这种对待让她十分心痛，但她也深知生命极其有限，如果去和生活中的每一处偏见死磕，整个人会被彻底掏空。 斯蒂芬分享了自己作为黑人在伦敦希思罗机场（Heathrow Airport）等海关频繁被扣留三四个小时的亲身经历，甚至还有媒体专门对此做过报道。他发现，一旦自己在那种场景下产生对抗情绪，怨恨就会吞噬自己宝贵的精力和状态。伊维将应对这种情境的心态比作给自己建立一个“精神能量防护罩（mental armor/bubble）”： - 认清现实：作为前执法人员，伊维指出一旦当事人情绪激动、开始激烈对抗，执法者只会将其解读为“局势升级（escalating）”，反而让盘查变得更严苛。 - 战略保护：明确界定自己的边界——“我知道你们是什么德行，我很忙，没空跟你们耗，你们想问什么赶紧问，问完我们就结束。” - 能量核算：时刻评估投入的负面能量与获得的结果是否对等，绝不用别人的偏见惩罚自己。 随后，斯蒂芬展示并隆重推荐了伊维·庞珀拉斯的畅销书《Becoming Bulletproof: Protect Yourself, Read People, Influence Situations, and Live Fearlessly》（成为防弹之人），援引《每日邮报》（Daily Mail）专栏作家罗杰·奥尔顿（Roger Alton）的赞誉，指出该书结合了真实回忆录与应对艰难时代的行动指南，平装版现已在全球发售。 ### [01:59:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=7198s) 传统日记提问：身体健康的最大挑战与倾听身体的智慧 节目进入尾声，主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Stephen Bartlett）再次向听众推荐了伊维·庞珀拉斯（Evy Poumpouras）的畅销书《Becoming Bulletproof》（成为防弹者）。他指出，整场对话本身就是最有力的证据，证明了这本书多么通俗易懂且极具价值；书中充满切实可行的建议，无论运用于董事会谈判、人际关系维系，还是更广阔的人生追求，都能帮助人们成为自己真正想成为的人。 随后，斯蒂芬引入了播客标志性的收尾传统——上一位嘉宾在不知道下一位是谁的情况下，在《CEO 日记》中留下一个手写问题。留给伊维的问题是：“在身体健康方面，你曾面临的最大挣扎是什么？你是如何解决或改善它的？” 伊维坦诚地分享了自己生育后的经历。作为常年保持极高强度体能训练的前特工，生孩子对她的身心而言是一次巨大的创伤体验。她给出的应对之道不是强行恢复训练，而是“放手让身体独处，给予它自我疗愈的时间”。她还回忆道，自己在整个人生中都在刻苦健身，但怀孕的那整整九个月里，她彻底停止了锻炼。她总结出的核心智慧非常纯粹：“倾听你的身体，给它所需要的东西，因为它自己会告诉你答案。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 身体修复与聆听机制 accDescr: 展示从长期高压训练到孕期及产后调整身心的过程 subgraph Mindset["认知转变"] A["长期高强度自律训练"] --> B["怀孕期：彻底暂停锻炼"] B --> C["产后创伤期：停止强加负荷"] end subgraph Healing["身心调愈逻辑"] C --> D["给予充分时间自我修复"] D --> E["倾听身体真实信号"] E --> F["顺应需求而非强加意志"] end ``` ### [02:00:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=7254s) 主持人的致谢：跨越自我设立的障碍与榜样的力量 斯蒂芬向伊维表达了由衷的敬意与感谢。他指出，伊维之所以能激励无数人，不仅在于她的专业履历，更在于她的坦诚脆弱，以及她能把深刻的人生哲理以极其平实质朴、引人共鸣的方式清晰表达出来。斯蒂芬坦言，尽管伊维曾在对话中提到自己并不喜欢“榜样（Role Model）”这个词，但事实无可否认，她的生活与职业生涯就是最鲜明的例证。 这段经历向所有人证明：无论登顶之路上横亘着多少险阻与高山，我们都有能力攀上巅峰。斯蒂芬特别强调，与伊维的深度交流让他深刻意识到，攀登途中许多看似不可逾越的障碍与壁垒，实际上常常是我们自己亲手摆在面前的；而一旦看清这一真相，人就会获得一种难以置信的自由与解脱。他盛赞《Becoming Bulletproof》是一本无论男性还是女性都必读的指南，能帮助每个人攀登属于自己的个人与职业高山，兑现更多潜能。 - **核心启示**：阻碍攀登巅峰的许多屏障往往源自内心的预设与自我设限，识破这一点具有解放性的力量。 - **推荐著作**：《Becoming Bulletproof》（成为防弹者），提供可落地到商业与生活的应变沟通与心理韧性法则。 ### [02:02:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=7324s) 步入三十岁的健康反思与个性化营养管理 节目的最后部分，斯蒂芬分享了自己迈入30岁门槛时的心路历程。他坦言，30岁成了自己认真审视长期健康的一个“警钟时刻”。步入这个阶段后，他明显察觉到身体的微妙变化，尤其是新陈代谢与日常精力水平的波动，这促使他决定更加科学、主动地管理身体状态。 作为健康科技公司 ZOE 的投资人与品牌合作伙伴，斯蒂芬结合自身体验介绍了其如何通过顶尖科学检测与个性化分析指导日常饮食。例如在点外卖时，借助科学建议先吃一份富含纤维的蔬菜垫底，或优先选择膳食纤维含量最高的餐食组合。通过随身的个性化营养指导，以科学数据驱动生活习惯的良性改善。 ## Notable quotes > [02:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=142s) The day you think you know everything is the day you become obsolete. — Evy Poumpouras > [13:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=790s) If you're on time, you're late. — Evy Poumpouras > [14:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=874s) 我的目标是获取情报，查明是否还有其他受害者，弄清作案手法以防止悲剧重演，并取得定罪的关键口供。我的目标不是站在道德制高点去教训他们，或者让他们知道我心里有多看不起他们。 — Evy Poumpouras > [26:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1595s) 你就是他们，他们就是你。如果你不喜欢当下的自己，不妨停下来看看，自己平时接触最多的人究竟是谁。 — Evy Poumpouras > [28:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1716s) 如果你周围充斥着一团混乱和闹剧，问题就出在你身上，因为是你容许它存在的。 — Evy Poumpouras > [30:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=1824s) 人们如何对待你，不在于你对他们说了什么，而在于他们待在你身边时的感受。如果他们感受到你原则坚定、绝不退让，他们心里自然有数……我们在特定环境中展现出特定的自我面向，最终是为了拿到想要的结果。 — Evy Poumpouras > [35:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=2135s) 一旦你能完全基于事实与理性做决定，情绪就会烟消云散。永远不要做一个情绪化的决策者，那绝不会有好结果，因为在浪潮裹挟中，你根本无法看清前路。 — Evy Poumpouras > [01:00:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=3630s) 如果你不敢把孩子扔在时代广场正中央任由陌生人上前搭话，那你就不该把智能手机塞进他们手里。 — Evy Poumpouras > [01:12:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=4334s) 我人生的衡量基准绝不是‘快乐’。 — Evy Poumpouras > [01:32:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5523s) 我不是‘9·11 幸存者’，我是伊维！那仅仅是我人生中某一天发生的一场经历，凭什么让短短的一天来定义我剩下的整个人生？绝不可能！ — Evy Poumpouras > [01:32:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=5523s) 必须在恐惧还弱小的时候果断扼杀它，绝不能让它长成无法控制的怪物。 — Evy Poumpouras > [01:59:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0&t=7198s) 倾听你的身体，给它所需要的东西，因为它自己会告诉你答案。 — Evy Poumpouras ## Mentioned Evy Poumpouras, Steven Bartlett, Becoming Bulletproof, The 33 Laws Of Business & Life, Spy Games, The Diary Of A CEO, US Secret Service, NYPD, Bill Clinton, Barack Obama, Michelle Obama, George W. Bush, Donald Trump, Barbara Bush, Andrew Bustamante, John Franey, Susan Fiske, Chris Malone, Laurence Alison, Emily Alison, Steve Jobs, Mark Manson, Don Saladino, Roger Alton, PerfectTed, ZOE, U.S. Customs and Border Protection (CBP), U.S. Department of Homeland Security ## Video description Evy Poumpouras is a former U.S. Secret Service Special Agent and multi-media journalist. She is also the co-host of Bravo TV's series ‘Spy Games’ and author of the best-selling memoir, ‘Becoming Bulletproof’. 00:00 Intro 02:22 My Mission To Unlock People's Potential 05:05 How You Became A Secret Service Officer 10:43 How To Get Someone To Do What You Want Them To 13:10 When You Listen To Someone They Like You More 14:34 You Need To Know About Them And Then You Can Start Asking The Right Questions 18:18 How To Get Others To Respect You 22:59 Is It Your Ego Or Have Your Boundaries Being Broken? 26:49 How To Build Confidence 29:34 The Different Versions Of Ourselves We Create 32:49 What I Learnt About Leadership From Working With 4 US Presidents 35:47 I Was In The Room When US Presidents Would Make Tough Decisions 38:36 My First Day Working For George Bush 41:07 Secret Service Training: Only 1% Make It Through 44:16 The 1% Of People That Became Part Of The Secret Service 46:06 How Can You Tell If Someone Is Lying To You? 48:16 Who's The Biggest Liar You've Met? 50:54 Signs They're Lying To You 52:59 What Your Body Language Reveals About You 01:00:19 Do Men Struggle With Strong Women? 01:01:00 What Advice Would You Give Your Daughter Become A Resilient Person 01:04:37 What Do You Work Out Your Mind And Body 01:07:19 What Was The Scariest Day Of Your Career? 01:12:28 How Was Your Mental Health During Your Career? 01:17:48 Discrimination In The Secret Service 01:19:39 How To Be Heard And Respected 01:25:51 Why You Need To Take Personal Responsibility 01:33:48 The Addiction To Being A Victim 01:35:02 Identifying Victims That Don't Want To Change 01:39:47 Undercover Missions 01:45:24 Discrimination In The Job 01:50:58 Labelling Yourself Can Affect The Way You See Yourself You can purchase Evy’s book, ‘Becoming Bulletproof’, here: https://amzn.to/3yOiwFN Follow Evy: Instagram - https://bit.ly/4aN4q4D Twitter - https://bit.ly/4c4TErD My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook Follow me: https://beacons.ai/diaryofaceo Sponsors: PerfectTed: http://bit.ly/PerfectTed-DOAC with an exclusive code DIARY10 for 10% off ZOE: http://joinzoe.com with an exclusive code CEO10 for 10% off [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iz_SJ5TpLJ0)

[2:22] Evy Poumpouras: The day you think you know everything is the day you become obsolete. [13:10] Evy Poumpouras: If you're on time, you're late. [14:34] Evy Poumpouras: 我的目标是获取情报，查明是否还有其他受害者，弄清作案手法以防止悲剧重演，并取得定罪的关键口供。我的目标不是站在道德制高点去教训他们，或者让他们知道我心里有多看不起他们。 [26:35] Evy Poumpouras: 你就是他们，他们就是你。如果你不喜欢当下的自己，不妨停下来看看，自己平时接触最多的人究竟是谁。 [28:36] Evy Poumpouras: 如果你周围充斥着一团混乱和闹剧，问题就出在你身上，因为是你容许它存在的。 [30:24] Evy Poumpouras: 人们如何对待你，不在于你对他们说了什么，而在于他们待在你身边时的感受。如果他们感受到你原则坚定、绝不退让，他们心里自然有数……我们在特定环境中展现出特定的自我面向，最终是为了拿到想要的结果。 [35:35] Evy Poumpouras: 一旦你能完全基于事实与理性做决定，情绪就会烟消云散。永远不要做一个情绪化的决策者，那绝不会有好结果，因为在浪潮裹挟中，你根本无法看清前路。 [60:30] Evy Poumpouras: 如果你不敢把孩子扔在时代广场正中央任由陌生人上前搭话，那你就不该把智能手机塞进他们手里。 [72:14] Evy Poumpouras: 我人生的衡量基准绝不是‘快乐’。 [92:03] Evy Poumpouras: 我不是‘9·11 幸存者’，我是伊维！那仅仅是我人生中某一天发生的一场经历，凭什么让短短的一天来定义我剩下的整个人生？绝不可能！ [92:03] Evy Poumpouras: 必须在恐惧还弱小的时候果断扼杀它，绝不能让它长成无法控制的怪物。 [119:58] Evy Poumpouras: 倾听你的身体，给它所需要的东西，因为它自己会告诉你答案。

[67:19] Evy Poumpouras: Your body is your temple... everything in the US Secret Service was about performance. This is your home—it houses your mind, it houses your soul—and we treat it like garbage and we give it garbage. [73:48] Evy Poumpouras: My barometer for life is not to be happy. The moments that I've done the most amazing things in my life I've not been happy, I've been fulfilled. [116:00] Evy Poumpouras: Your time here, man, it's just so finite. Fight who you need to fight if you have to fight... but I'm just too busy. I have things to do and I can't sit and waste my time on every buffoon that comes my way.

[0:00] being an interrogator special agent with [0:02] the US Secret Service I'm trained in the [0:03] art of reading people's body language [0:05] verbal cues I mean even written [0:07] statements so you can figure out who's [0:09] full of BS and who isn't no so one of [0:12] the things I would see a lot of guilty [0:13] people do is Evie pom porus former US [0:16] Secret Service special agent who [0:18] protected presidents worked undercover [0:20] and trained in the art of lie detection [0:22] human behavior and cognitive influence [0:24] she's now on a mission to help us all [0:26] benefit from the lessons she's learned [0:27] along the way eie I want to go into all [0:29] of the techniques the life lessons the [0:31] wisdom so what are the co components of [0:33] how to get someone to do what you want [0:34] everybody's motivated by something [0:36] different what you want to understand is [0:38] that person's motivational mindset but [0:40] the biggest mistake people make is they [0:42] what about when your boss or your [0:43] colleague isn't listening to you what [0:44] should you do so it's called par [0:46] Linguistics everyone's so focused on [0:48] what they say they don't think about the [0:49] tone pitch of the voice but there are [0:52] simple things you can do to make sure [0:53] people hear you first you spent 12 years [0:56] around people like Bill Clinton and [0:57] Barack Obama did you learn anything [0:59] about lead ship they're not driven by [1:01] emotion and the problem majority people [1:03] have is they're bring their feelings [1:04] into it you don't want to be an [1:06] emotional decision maker it never goes [1:08] well pull back and be [1:10] objective Evie when you think back of [1:13] your secret service experience was there [1:15] ever a day when you thought the [1:16] president's life was at risk do you know [1:17] I don't think I ever talked about it but [1:19] and then what was the scariest moment of [1:21] your career there was another undercover [1:23] case all these things are escalating [1:26] back any second he's going to kill my [1:28] partner and pull my gun out [1:32] that stayed with [1:35] me congratulations dcio gang we've made [1:37] some progress 63% of you that listen to [1:40] this podcast regularly don't subscribe [1:43] which is down from [1:45] 69% our goal is 50% so if you've ever [1:49] liked any of the videos we've posted if [1:51] you like this channel can you do me a [1:52] quick favor and hit the Subscribe button [1:54] it helps this channel more than you know [1:56] and the bigger the channel gets as [1:57] you've seen the bigger the guests get [1:59] thank you and enjoy this [2:01] [Music] [2:07] episode Evie if someone's just clicked [2:10] onto this podcast to listen because they [2:12] thought the title was interesting or the [2:13] thumbnail was interesting with the [2:16] understanding that we're going to talk [2:17] about the work you're doing in this [2:19] season of your life and who you're doing [2:20] it [2:22] for can you tell me exactly why they [2:24] should stay and listen to this [2:26] conversation I think for each person [2:28] it's different but why should you listen [2:29] listen at think cor we're always trying [2:33] to become something better I wrote my [2:34] book becoming bulletproof and I think [2:36] the essence of that was I'm trying to [2:38] become more than [2:41] and how about this the day you think you [2:45] know everything is the day you become [2:48] obsolete I live by that because I am [2:51] never at my Peak I am always becoming [2:54] more so if you're looking to become more [2:56] and you don't know what that is [2:58] exactly then listen all of this [3:01] information we're going to talk about [3:02] today um the techniques the things [3:04] you've learned the life lessons the [3:05] wisdom where is it come [3:08] from what is your if I looked at your CV [3:11] what would I see I probably honestly [3:13] came from probably comes from growing up [3:16] in New York daughter of immigrants I [3:18] think that there's one aspect there but [3:19] I TR think I truly think the majority is [3:21] when I became a New York City police [3:23] officer and then I went to the US Secret [3:25] Service and I went in young I was like [3:29] 22 23 and so while everyone's out at [3:33] that age partying doing whatever I went [3:35] into this this field and I was around a [3:39] lot a lot of other Elite performers and [3:41] thinkers and I learned so much training [3:45] how humbles you the the job humbles you [3:49] and then also working in the White House [3:51] being around other top performers top [3:53] thinkers that really kind of not kind of [3:57] I mean that really I grew up there I [3:59] grew up in the white house I grew up in [4:01] the US Secret Service that's how I grew [4:03] up so I think that those things help [4:06] shape me and mold me not just training [4:08] but also the people I was around I [4:10] learned a lot made many mistakes but I [4:13] had really good I don't want to say Role [4:16] Models because I don't like that word I [4:18] don't look at anybody and say I want to [4:19] be that no I want to be me but I can [4:22] look at other people and learn and INSP [4:26] get inspired from them and see what they [4:28] do so I had those examples that guided [4:31] me so I think that's the majority of [4:34] where that comes from and then the [4:36] practicing of it flexing that muscle [4:39] it's like a workout you have to keep [4:42] doing that and being honest with [4:43] yourself you Secret Service nobody wants [4:45] to hear excuses nobody cares how you [4:48] feel I don't mean it in a mean way but [4:49] they're like we have a job to do what is [4:51] the Secret Service I really want to zoom [4:53] in on your career experience to [4:55] understand [4:56] um how the wisdom you have was derived [4:59] from different sort of seasons of your [5:02] um experience so a lot of us have heard [5:05] this term secret service agent but in [5:08] but in reality if I look at the span of [5:09] your career what did that [5:11] involve [5:12] specifically okay so Secret Service the [5:15] United States Secret Service was [5:16] actually the uh one of the oldest [5:18] federal law enforcement train agencies [5:20] in the US so they do two things the one [5:24] thing that they do is they protect the [5:26] president everybody sees it right [5:27] everyone's like oh that's Secret Service [5:29] that's all they do [5:30] No in fact even that unit of of people [5:33] that you see around the president it's [5:34] very hard even to get in there you don't [5:36] you don't automatically go and even if [5:38] you want to go doesn't mean you're going [5:39] to get it so you do protection president [5:42] former presidents vice president first [5:45] ladies even foreign heads of state so [5:47] when the prime minister of the UK comes [5:49] to the US he gets protection because we [5:52] don't want him getting assassinated in [5:53] the US so all these foreign heads of [5:55] state so you're you're protecting tons [5:58] of people and it doesn't matter who it [6:00] is you're the job is I die for you [6:04] period so that's one aspect of it so [6:07] there's a very selfless aspect of that [6:09] which goes against all your intuition [6:12] right because even in law enforcement as [6:14] a cop or police officer they teach you [6:17] hey if you're getting shot at you make [6:19] yourself small take cover then engage Us [6:22] Secret services that all goes out the [6:24] window it's no you're getting shot at [6:26] you jump in front and then make yourself [6:29] big even bigger to make sure the bullet [6:31] hits you and not the person behind you [6:33] so you have to really rewire like [6:35] something that's instinctual that's [6:37] protection the other aspect of it is [6:40] investigations they work [6:42] investigations fraud a lot of fraud a [6:44] lot of complex crimes and today fraud is [6:48] global so you'll be investigating [6:50] somebody in Russia I remember there was [6:52] one guy in Russia who's committing fraud [6:55] here in the US um he was going into bank [6:58] bank accounts of these [7:00] very wealthy people so the US Secret [7:03] Service and home Homeland and CBP [7:06] Customs border patrol everybody got [7:07] together because like we have to get [7:09] this guy so they figure out okay he's in [7:12] Russia so the US goes to Russia says Hey [7:14] Russia uh can you help us get this guy [7:17] can you know can you send him over and [7:20] so Russia of course is like no we're not [7:22] going to do it to be fair we wouldn't do [7:25] it for Russia either so it goes both [7:27] ways so then everyone had to get created [7:29] how do we get this guy so they're like [7:31] all right we're going to put a plan [7:32] together to lure him into another [7:34] country a neutral country so this plan [7:37] goes into place it's not my case and [7:39] it's probably Friday night I hear my [7:41] boss calling from across the way he's [7:43] like hey pom purus yes sir he's like [7:46] what are you doing tomorrow I looked at [7:47] him I'm like why don't you tell me what [7:49] I'm doing tomorrow he said can you go to [7:51] the Dr Dominican Republic I said sure [7:53] what do you need he's like you need to [7:55] do undercover okay what am I doing he's [7:57] like we've got this guy in Russia we're [7:58] luring luring him over from Russia to [8:01] the Dr we want to get him and bring him [8:02] to the US you're going to go with your [8:04] boyfriend I'm like who's my boyfriend [8:06] he's a detective from the L NYPD I think [8:08] he was I can't remember what great he [8:10] was you're going to be his girlfriend [8:13] you're going to give him legitimacy you [8:15] guys are going to convince this Russian [8:17] to come to the US I'm like where are we [8:18] going to do this he's like at a resort I [8:20] said Resort I'm like what do I have to [8:22] do he's like just make him look legit [8:24] you mean hang out by the pool all day [8:25] and just drink peina coladas he said yes [8:27] as long as they're virgin I said no [8:29] problem MH and so that's what we did we [8:31] spent I don't know how many days at this [8:33] Resort me and my boyfriend who was like [8:35] 20 years older than me maybe 30 and [8:38] dinners with the Russian talking to him [8:41] and what we tried to motivate him by is [8:43] greed come to America we'll sneak you in [8:45] and you'll make a ton of money and [8:48] because we knew what his motivator was [8:50] more money so he's thinking about it [8:52] he's thinking about it we're having a [8:53] little bit of hard time with them then [8:55] finally it's the day before we're [8:56] supposed to leave on our private jet [8:58] which is customs border [9:00] Patrol and I'm talking to my boyfriend's [9:02] detective I'm like you think he'll show [9:04] he's like I don't know so we're waiting [9:06] that morning it's like 5 minutes to 9: [9:08] we're about to leave the [9:10] resort and we're like he's not going to [9:12] show 3 minutes before 9: he rolls up [9:15] he's like I'm in so we board our plane [9:18] it's our private jet it's Customs border [9:20] patrol everyone's undercover we get on [9:22] there's like alcohol I don't drink [9:24] there's food he gets on the Russian we [9:26] fly from the Dominican Republic to Miami [9:29] we land in Miami do a refuel it's all [9:31] agents they're watching but they're all [9:33] you know reading newspapers everyone's [9:36] undercover we get back on the jet we fly [9:39] to New York and then we land in Long [9:41] Island in a very in a remote area [9:44] there's a limo there our limo my [9:45] boyfriend's limo with I I don't drink [9:48] again I it's like Jack Daniels Jack [9:50] Daniels Blue Label which is like the [9:52] fancy I guess a liquor we get in we get [9:54] into the limo and then we drive so now [9:57] we got them in the US we got them the [9:59] was to bring him to Brooklyn to the [10:01] Brooklyn [10:02] Bridge and the takedown was I take a [10:05] photo of my boyfriend and the Russian by [10:07] the Brooklyn Bridge wearing their [10:08] Russian hats cuz he brought Russian hats [10:10] and that was my clear take us down it's [10:13] safe and so I put the photo up the [10:15] bridges in the back my boyfriend's like [10:17] welcome to America we're going to commit [10:19] all this fraud we're going to steal all [10:21] this money the Russians super happy [10:24] click everybody comes in we're all in [10:26] cuffs that's an example of a case if I [10:29] back up there you said that what he [10:32] wanted was more money when when you're [10:34] trying to understand how to get someone [10:36] to do what you want to [10:38] do what are the sort of core components [10:40] of that I spoke to um Andrew Bustamante [10:42] who's the former CIA agent and he's he [10:44] said he's spent a lot of time undercover [10:46] doing very similar work going to foreign [10:49] countries getting people to like him to [10:52] trust him and then to give him something [10:54] and one of the things he said to me is [10:56] you need to understand their ideology he [10:59] says of all the things that make someone [11:00] do something is understanding their [11:02] ideology which is kind of what you're [11:03] describing there I think there's [11:04] ideology and the other thing he said [11:05] this framework rice reward ideology [11:07] coercion and ego and what you described [11:10] I guess is the reward that that Russian [11:11] guy wanted when you're thinking about [11:13] how to get someone to do what you want [11:14] what's the what's the kind of framework [11:15] where' you where did you default to and [11:17] I'm and here I'm thinking about business [11:18] I'm thinking about sales I'm thinking [11:20] about all forms of persuasion because [11:22] that's essentially what you had to do [11:23] you had to get this total stranger [11:24] sounds like a stranger onto a private J [11:26] to come with you to America [11:29] so I'm going to shut up because I need [11:32] to understand what you want the biggest [11:34] mistake people make is they talk a [11:36] lot Steph if I'm doing all the talking [11:38] and you're doing all the listening right [11:41] you're learning everything about me [11:43] you're learning about what I care about [11:45] my values my belief systems you're [11:47] getting a good read on me and I'm [11:50] learning nothing about you there's a [11:52] myth that people think if I do most of [11:54] the talking I have control it's garbage [11:56] you have the power because you've got me [11:59] now now so what I will tell you is and I [12:02] know of Andy what you want to understand [12:05] is that person's motivational mindset [12:08] what are you motivated by so that is [12:10] your value and belief system everybody's [12:12] motivated by something different but I [12:14] have to hear you and pay attention to [12:16] you to understand what that is [12:18] everybody's purpose is different the [12:21] example I gave you with a Russian he's [12:23] motivated by money how did you figure [12:25] that out was there a certain question or [12:27] was it just one his action showed it cuz [12:29] he wants money and then in talking to [12:31] him he had a I believe he had a wife [12:33] home he had a kid home he grew up a [12:35] certain way so you just listen here have [12:37] a drink talk to me let me know if you [12:40] give people enough space they will [12:42] reveal themselves to you but we're so [12:44] busy talking we're so busy making noise [12:46] because we think everybody needs to hear [12:48] me I'm identity everybody needs to know [12:51] me me me me and you know what nobody [12:55] cares is there something in that as well [12:57] where when you listen to someone they [12:58] like you more yeah they like you more [13:00] because everybody loves to talk about [13:02] themselves because everybody wants to [13:03] feel heard now I'll tell you this though [13:06] I'm going to push back on the little bit [13:07] of the like thing because even in [13:09] business people like I need people to [13:11] like me I need people to like me that is [13:13] a Trek for disaster because now you're [13:15] focused on not what your goal [13:18] is but I need to make somebody like me [13:20] those are two different animals if my [13:22] goal is to do a deal with [13:25] you then I'm going to focus on what do I [13:27] need to get this deal done if my goal is [13:30] to get you to like me which is much more [13:33] complex and much more confusing and also [13:35] it's going to mess me up in trying to [13:37] figure that out I say [13:39] this don't focus on making people like [13:41] you because you can do everything right [13:43] and people may still just not like you [13:46] instead focus on how about I'm going to [13:49] be competent in what I do when I say I'm [13:50] going to do something I follow through [13:52] when I say I can do something I actually [13:55] can do it when I say I'm going to be [13:56] there at 9: I'm there at 8:55 in the US [13:59] Secret Service we had a saying if you're [14:00] on time you're [14:02] late so I show you that I'm competent [14:05] when you see that are you going to like [14:06] me for that yes you are I'll respect you [14:10] now there's warmth warmth is the other [14:14] element here warmth is I show you [14:16] respect so instead of me trying to get [14:18] you to like me how about I just show you [14:19] respect what does that look like in [14:21] reality showing some more respect is [14:22] that again the time keeping I'm [14:23] listening to you I show up on time I [14:26] follow through with what I say I'm going [14:27] to do I'm also open and approachable I'm [14:30] also non-judgmental that's a big thing [14:32] everybody is kind of like throwing their [14:34] weight around let me tell you what I [14:35] think let me tell you what I think [14:37] nobody needs to know what you think it [14:39] doesn't matter if you're really trying [14:40] to build a connection with a person then [14:42] build it and let them tell you what they [14:45] think because now I see the world [14:48] through your lens not mine I always say [14:50] when especially I do a lot of Keynotes [14:52] and training for businesses you don't [14:54] matter they matter what do they want [14:56] what do they need what's important to [14:58] them let them them tell you and then [15:00] when they tell you instead of trying to [15:02] guess how to enter a conversation [15:04] because you're coming into the blind but [15:06] what do I do I shut up I listen I let [15:09] you reveal to me what matters to you [15:10] what your values are and then I come in [15:13] more intelligently into the conversation [15:15] and I speak to you you have to know your [15:17] audience but you don't know your [15:18] audience if you're doing all the Talking [15:21] everybody's motivated by something [15:22] different if you take my motivational [15:24] Factor growing up I was never motivated [15:27] by money my russan was readed that's [15:29] fair but I wasn't whenever I got a job I [15:32] never looked at the pay NYPD I had no [15:34] idea what my salary was um when I went [15:37] to the US Secret Service I never once [15:38] asked them what's the pay because I [15:40] wasn't motivated by that I was motivated [15:43] by the mission by the purpose but people [15:46] will show you that so the recruiter that [15:47] talked to me probably realized this [15:50] woman never once asked me what her [15:52] salary is going to be she's not [15:54] motivated by that those are little [15:57] things that people show you [15:59] people will show you what they care [16:01] about if we just hold back stay silent [16:06] ask good questions and you know what [16:08] we're genuinely curious I genuinely want [16:12] to get to know you I genuinely want to [16:14] understand you I don't genuinely want to [16:16] tell you all about me that's different [16:20] and the one factor that's really [16:21] important is not having judgment being [16:24] non-judgmental when you show judgment to [16:27] another person they're going to filter [16:29] what they say they're going to shut down [16:31] they're going to hold back because [16:33] nobody likes to be judged I would [16:35] interview in the polygraph room people [16:37] who committed really horrible crimes [16:39] crimes against children a lot of people [16:41] would say to me how can you sit there [16:42] and listen to it and not you know tell [16:45] them what you thought or not like ream [16:47] them out I was like because my goal was [16:51] to get information see where there other [16:52] victims how did they do it I want to [16:55] know what they did so that I can make [16:57] sure that this doesn't happen happen [16:59] again and that I do maybe get [17:01] information so I can get a conviction [17:03] and then I also want to know if there [17:04] are other victims out there my goal is [17:06] not to check somebody and put him in his [17:09] place or her and tell them what I think [17:11] of them those are two different things [17:13] also in the room my goal was not to get [17:15] them to like me my goal was to get them [17:18] to feel heard to feel respected for me [17:21] to be professional and I think we bring [17:23] the wrong terms because it's confusing [17:25] if I want you to like me too think of it [17:27] this way then I'm going to think I have [17:29] to be nice to him I have to be his [17:31] friend and when you become you're in [17:33] business you can be warm but when you [17:36] start becoming people's friends that's [17:38] when the lines get blurred and we get [17:40] confused in fact there's research done [17:42] by Susan Fisk and Chris Malone and they [17:44] say be warm to people be open and [17:46] approachable but if you're overly nice [17:48] overly kind overly polite that's when [17:51] you get rolled you want to find that [17:53] beautiful balance where I'm a [17:55] professional I'm warm I'm not judgmental [17:57] come talk to me tell me but but at the [17:59] same time I maintain my authority I [18:01] maintain my [18:03] boundaries what about when someone [18:05] compromises your boundaries or [18:06] disrespects you how do you react to that [18:08] because I think a I have a lot of um [18:10] leaders around me in my various [18:11] businesses and I see sometimes that some [18:13] leaders struggle with confrontation they [18:16] struggle with you know team member might [18:18] disrespect them in some way or might [18:21] disre might not deliver work to the [18:22] right standard and they might struggle [18:25] with like pulling that person in knowing [18:27] how to do that and how to address that [18:29] situation and the avoidance of that [18:31] conflict obviously just causes a bigger [18:33] future problem because you're setting a [18:35] new you're setting a new boundary right [18:37] you've let [18:38] someone jeopardize or um cross a line [18:42] and if you don't I'm assuming that if in [18:44] the moment you don't address that [18:45] they're going to cross it again in the [18:46] future this is really about like [18:48] conflict resolution interpersonal [18:50] conflict resolution and when you've been [18:51] disrespected how do you deal with that [18:54] so the first I'm going to do is I'm [18:55] going to flip it back what have you done [18:57] to let people think that they can do [18:59] that to you that's the first thing I'm [19:01] going to say what standards have you [19:03] created or what things have you set up [19:05] to let people think I don't have to [19:07] deliver on time I can't be disrespectful [19:09] I can't show up late for work that's the [19:11] first thing I'm going to say so I would [19:12] Haz it a guess that I did I in the past [19:15] set a standard for this right in some [19:18] way that I showed up in the past that's [19:20] the first thing I'm going to do what is [19:21] there something I have done to create an [19:24] environment where a person thinks that [19:26] it is okay to do these things that's f [19:28] first why do you go to I because I'm the [19:32] one who sets the tone for I I I I just [19:34] interviewed a chief of station former [19:36] Chief of station John franie he's former [19:39] CIA and he managed a lot of people and a [19:43] very strong a lot of strong [19:44] personalities because you got officers [19:45] and all these different people and he [19:47] said to me you know what I learned he [19:49] said it is easier to be more have [19:53] boundaries and be a little bit more [19:55] sturdy and more authoritative in the [19:56] beginning and then pull back than to be [19:59] everybody's friend and then try to put [20:01] those boundaries in place the ladder [20:03] doesn't work he's like you do the first [20:05] you let people know what you expect of [20:07] them and then you can pull back a little [20:09] bit but you always have to tow that line [20:11] so that's what I'm going to say first [20:12] and he's right what tone have I set in [20:15] the environment that I'm working that [20:16] people think it's okay to do these [20:18] things that's one now let's say [20:20] sometimes I have an outlier I have a [20:21] person who does these things as soon as [20:24] it happens you have to address [20:26] it what people do is they don't address [20:29] things they let it go it's small and [20:31] then it happens again it's small then [20:33] again and then we become resentful we [20:35] become pissed why does this person keep [20:37] doing it why don't they self-correct [20:40] again it goes back to me why haven't I [20:42] addressed it people are afraid of [20:45] conflict conflict can be done in a great [20:48] way you have to think of conflict as [20:50] think of it as like I'm competing I'm I [20:53] can speak to you not raise my voice not [20:55] make it ugly and debate something with [20:57] you in the in the the White House next [21:00] to the Oval Office was the cabinet room [21:02] the cabinet room is where the president [21:04] would sit with all his heads you know [21:06] Secretary of Treasury Secretary of [21:07] Homeland Security and they would discuss [21:09] and [21:10] debate policies laws and they would [21:13] compete one person would say I don't [21:15] like this idea this is why another [21:17] person would say well this idea doesn't [21:19] work this is why you have to be [21:22] comfortable in doing that most people [21:24] are not they don't understand that you [21:25] can sit somebody down and say Hey you [21:27] know this happened can you tell me about [21:29] that I had someone who worked for me and [21:32] she had made a mistake on something and [21:34] so it was a pretty big mistake so I I [21:37] called her up and I said hey you know [21:39] what this and this happened you know [21:41] talk me through it and I let her explain [21:43] and you know she said you know I'm sorry [21:46] this and that uh there's a reason why [21:48] but the one thing I did I said because I [21:50] wanted to rectify it because I didn't [21:52] want it happen again I was like is there [21:53] anything I can do to help make your job [21:56] better so you can be more successful at [21:58] what you [21:59] do because I want to hear is there [22:02] something I'm doing or not doing that's [22:05] impacting her decision making or the way [22:07] she sees things so it's a twofold but [22:10] you also to when it comes to respect and [22:12] this is a whole separate thing you [22:14] brought up with the respect part just [22:17] make sure people are truly disrespecting [22:20] you and that's not your ego that feels [22:22] disrespected cuz sometimes people can't [22:24] take somebody pushing back and if my [22:26] goal is to make a great product [22:29] or business deal or transaction then [22:31] everything we do should be in [22:33] furtherance of [22:34] that but what happens is Stephen people [22:38] are so afraid of hurting other people's [22:39] feelings or stepping on other people's [22:41] toes nobody says something and that's [22:44] worse it's sometimes difficult to know [22:46] the difference between whether this is a [22:48] violation of my boundaries or this is my [22:51] ego because you know I think of much of [22:54] the reason why people won't confront [22:56] something in the moment is because they [22:57] start double guess whether they're in [22:59] the right they're in the wrong this is [23:00] acceptable this is unacceptable behavior [23:02] and that kind of mental debate of um is [23:05] that actually acceptable that they treat [23:07] me like this or that they did this or am [23:10] I just being triggered because you know [23:12] of some kind of emotional issue that I [23:14] have and that kind of conversation often [23:16] results in them taking no action which [23:18] means they tolerate that behavior [23:19] whether they should or shouldn't and [23:21] then it becomes the norm you know it's [23:22] interesting so I'm a very um like a I'm [23:26] quick too to jump and like [23:28] I don't want to say go into attack mode [23:30] but I I have it I'm Greek I group up in [23:32] New York and queens it's like it's just [23:34] on so I always have to my immediate [23:37] response is like what internally inside [23:40] voice uh I pause and I'm like hang on is [23:42] this person telling me something or [23:44] doing something that I should [23:47] hear right maybe they're telling I made [23:49] a mistake and they're trying to help me [23:50] make something better or is this person [23:53] crossing a boundary that I don't want [23:54] them to cross so then I will sit that [23:57] person down or have a conversation hey [23:59] can you tell me about this what were you [24:01] thinking when this happened walk me [24:02] through it but I will tell you [24:04] non-judgmental right you don't want to [24:06] show it it's I call it the poker face [24:08] just don't show it and let them talk and [24:09] just see what they're thinking most [24:11] people as they're talking to you Stephen [24:13] they will on their own realize as they [24:15] talk through it what they made wrong [24:17] what they did wrong also you you lead by [24:20] examples so sometimes I'll make a [24:21] mistake I'll miss a deadline with [24:23] someone I work with and I'll say listen [24:24] I'm sorry I was traveling I own it tell [24:27] me what I need to do to fix it and what [24:29] I have found when I do that the people I [24:32] work with when they make a mistake and [24:33] I'm like hey what happened with this you [24:35] know what eie I'm sorry I miss the [24:36] deadline I own it I'll fix it they [24:39] reflect back what I show them so I think [24:42] it also shows in the behavior and and [24:44] then there sometimes Stephen some [24:46] sometimes you'll bring somebody in that [24:48] just should not be there and then you [24:50] also have to make that hard decision [24:52] because that one person it will destroy [24:55] the fabric of the group one person can [24:58] do that because everybody else around [25:00] now watches that interaction and they're [25:03] thinking well Stephen doesn't care I was [25:05] like he's letting this guy do this so I [25:07] can do this right it's a I compare it to [25:11] like uh when I teach so as I said I'm an [25:13] agent Professor I teach College I teach [25:15] undergrad CRI criminal justice first day [25:18] class when they come in I tell them no [25:21] cell phones I was like and the reason I [25:23] have you do no cell phones is not [25:25] because I'm I want you to respect me or [25:27] this and that I was like I owe ow you an [25:28] education I owe you an education I know [25:31] some professors don't care but I tell my [25:32] students day one I give a [ __ ] and [25:35] because I give a [ __ ] I don't want to [25:36] see the phone in the class however I do [25:38] something else it's an influence [25:40] strategy I give them autonomy I say [25:42] however you can leave this classroom [25:44] anytime you want to check Facebook go on [25:47] Instagram I don't care you have that [25:50] autonomy but in here I want you to [25:52] respect the sanctity of the classroom [25:54] because you deserve education and I owe [25:56] it to you and I set that standard and [25:59] side note there's a video clip that I [26:01] showed day one and you're actually in it [26:03] I didn't even know who you were there's [26:05] a clip of you and some others it's a [26:07] montage of videos together talking about [26:10] social media and how it impacts you [26:12] adversely and cell phones and cell phone [26:14] addiction and all that and I actually [26:16] play that clip and can I tell you it [26:18] resonates with everybody and I have no [26:20] problems the rest of the semester but I [26:23] set that tone and I tell them if I see [26:26] the phone you're going home no hard [26:28] feelings I'm going to pause class and [26:30] I'm going to send you home and then if [26:32] somebody violates it though I do it have [26:35] you had to build up [26:39] your how would I describe it mental [26:43] fortitude um ability to be direct to [26:46] look someone in the eye to stand up [26:49] straight have you had to build that up [26:51] over time because there'll be a lot of [26:52] people who look at you and see strength [26:54] and they see confidence and they see [26:56] conviction and they'll Wonder Maybe she [26:58] was just born like that or maybe there's [27:00] something she did along the way that [27:02] grew that it's a lot of mistakes and a [27:06] lot of [27:07] discipline and it's [27:09] also the people you surround yourself [27:11] with will set that example that tone for [27:14] you if everybody around me is a mess or [27:18] everybody around me when there's a [27:19] stressful situation they fall apart and [27:21] they're chaotic I'm going to be that [27:23] even to this day Stephen I sit and I'm [27:26] very aware of who I have conversations [27:29] with whose energy I absorb whose [27:31] problems I solve I have somebody I care [27:34] about very deeply they're in a situation [27:36] with someone a relationship with someone [27:38] who is volatile chaotic they've come to [27:40] me so many times I said you need to let [27:42] go of this person I will I will they [27:45] don't but what happens is they keep [27:47] coming to me I'm having this problem and [27:49] I put them on point I'm like I told you [27:51] what to do now you have to sort that out [27:53] because now what's happening is your [27:55] stuff is coming into me and I can't have [27:58] that cuz I have to keep this steady so [28:01] sometimes even with pain in my heart [28:03] I'll have to kind of move that person a [28:04] little bit to the outer part of the [28:06] circle does not mean I don't care or [28:08] love them but it means your chaos has to [28:11] stay there because it's going to bleed [28:14] into my life you're unsteady I'm [28:16] unsteady but everybody around me it's [28:19] like a I don't want to say it's like a [28:21] calculus problem but it's kind of simple [28:22] math man look at who's around you you [28:25] are them they are you and if you don't [28:27] like what's going on with you pause and [28:29] be like who am I exposed to the most [28:32] sometimes the people we love they can be [28:34] very difficult personalities but even [28:36] with them you could say I can manage [28:38] this I don't want to cut this person out [28:39] but what do I do I just move them to the [28:41] edge of the circle a little bit more and [28:44] you have to make sure your core circle [28:46] is strong and that's something you have [28:48] to constantly reassess because sometimes [28:50] in our lives this person is good here [28:53] and then maybe 2 3 years later they're [28:56] not good anymore but what we're tied to [28:58] is that person who we knew back then [29:01] well they're not the same person now if [29:04] you have a [ __ ] show around [29:06] you it's you because you're allowing it [29:09] to exist so think about quietly how can [29:12] I create these changes and quietly make [29:15] these changes quietly make these [29:16] boundaries because these are boundaries [29:18] internal for you it's interesting I [29:21] remember watching a video of Steve Jobs [29:22] talk about how he built his career and [29:23] he said in that video he said I built my [29:26] career by surrounding myself and finding [29:27] these truly exceptional people these a [29:29] players and the crazy thing is when you [29:31] find these a players they like working [29:33] with other a players and it propagates [29:36] but the opposite is also true right if [29:38] when you build a circle of drama they'll [29:40] invite more drama but if you I look at [29:42] my own life and I look at my companies [29:43] and it's almost this crazy sort of [29:45] process of osmosis when we have chaos [29:49] and we have inexperience and we have [29:51] drama we end up hiring and inviting more [29:54] of the same whereas when we made [29:56] those step steps to bring in experience [29:59] I'm thinking in my early my early career [30:02] experience and maturity and composure [30:05] and a certain yeah a certain [30:07] psychological maturity then that's what [30:09] we ended up bringing more of more and [30:10] more in because like-minded people [30:12] attract like-minded people and even in [30:14] the context of our own lives our Circle [30:17] will just you know the fifth person will [30:19] become the sixth person if that makes [30:20] sense yes it's like they rotate out and [30:22] it's okay you know what's interesting [30:24] too I'm wondering too because you do [30:26] this podcast and you really try to [30:28] you're warm you're open you want people [30:30] to speak to you and I wonder if people [30:33] that work with you outside of the [30:35] podcast or people that work with you in [30:36] your business see the Steven on the [30:38] podcast and they think he's so warm he's [30:41] so open he's so he's so flexible and [30:44] they confuse that Stephen with the Steph [30:46] who does business and there can be [30:48] different versions of You Stephen so you [30:50] could think of it and I do this all the [30:51] time who I am here doesn't mean I'm the [30:54] same person here so when I show up to [30:55] work I bring in maybe a little bit more [30:58] energy a little bit more directness or [31:00] when i h when I hire people I'll tell [31:02] people Hey listen because I want to be [31:04] efficient at what I do sometimes I'll be [31:06] very direct cuz I want to just get there [31:08] don't get your feelings hurt if at any [31:09] point there's something you're not sure [31:11] about please tell me but because I need [31:13] to get to there I may be just be direct [31:15] so if you think it's going to be hard [31:17] for you I'm not the person I was like [31:19] but I will always appreciate you and I'm [31:21] always here so I'll sprinkle in every [31:23] now and then hey I appreciate you thank [31:25] you for this this is great that way in [31:27] the so there's my warmth so that in [31:30] those months when I'm like hey this [31:31] email you guys wrote this is we can't [31:33] send this out this needs to be redone [31:35] and so nobody's hearing like oh I'm [31:37] stupid she thinks I'm done I did a [31:39] horrible job it's like no the email just [31:40] sucks change it and fix it so we can [31:43] move on and do better but think about [31:46] the versions you bring in cuz I'll give [31:48] you an example who I am in the classroom [31:50] is different than who I am on the [31:51] podcast is different who I am when I do [31:53] the news there are different versions of [31:55] me and we have to weigh out those so if [31:59] you're going into a business meeting or [32:01] you're dealing with people who look to [32:03] you as a [32:06] supervisor a little bit of a different [32:08] Steph so they feel it's not what you say [32:12] to people Stephen it's how they feel [32:13] around you and if they feel like he's [32:16] not taking any of this they're going to [32:18] know it it's the essence of who we are [32:20] it's our ethos is a Greek word your your [32:23] way of being we show we show people in [32:26] the context of whatever environment [32:28] we're in the version that we want them [32:31] to see so that we can get the results [32:33] that we want you spent much of your time [32:36] around great leaders if I think about [32:39] you know you were working for about [32:41] almost 12 years around people like Bill [32:44] Clinton and Barack Obama and Michelle [32:47] Obama did you learn anything about [32:51] leadership from those individuals from [32:53] observing them and seeing how they [32:54] conducted themselves and how they [32:55] communicated you know in the UK we see [32:58] someone like Barack Obama is a really [33:01] incredible leader for many reasons but I [33:03] think one of the real standout reasons [33:04] is his ability to communicate in a [33:07] certain way which galvanizes people and [33:10] we haven't really seen I mean one could [33:12] actually argue that Trump has his own [33:15] masterful communication skills it's very [33:17] different but it seems to work you know [33:22] did you learn anything from being around [33:23] these presidents about leadership and [33:24] communication so you learn you learn [33:26] something from all of them to be [33:27] president of the United States whoever [33:29] you are I mean that's a feat and of [33:31] itself so they're all they all have [33:33] something so it's interesting the the [33:36] one thing I learned is [33:39] um resilience you'll be next to the [33:43] president and this was every president a [33:45] forers all of them I stood next to and [33:47] you're standing next to them and they're [33:48] about to go on stage or in a big meeting [33:50] or they're talking to someone and you've [33:52] got the news on and there's some [33:54] political pundit on the news or channel [33:56] talking about how stupid they are he's a [33:59] dummy he's this he's that just shading [34:02] them and he looks at [34:06] it yeah gets his stuff together gets his [34:09] speech together gets on stage and [34:10] delivers when the majority of the public [34:13] would sit there oh my God I'm [34:15] disrespected I'm this how can they say [34:18] that nothing that was amazing to me so [34:23] not only did the US Secret Service make [34:24] me resilient but to see somebody just [34:26] take such heat or hear such horrible [34:29] things said about them on a consistent [34:31] basis on such public platforms and you [34:34] have the ability to wake up walk outside [34:36] the White House your head up get in your [34:38] limo Go on stage go do this press [34:40] conference and you're like it's just [34:41] going to happen there's no there's no [34:45] school for that and so because I was [34:48] around these these these these [34:50] personalities I'm like yeah well if he [34:53] can do it I can do it who was the most [34:56] impressive I have to tell you they all [34:58] were there was no one that wasn't like [35:01] they all had their their gift you know [35:04] and even Trump you brought up Trump [35:05] before I think what people like about [35:07] him he's just direct he's very direct [35:10] and he just lands it he says what he [35:12] says and he doesn't care there's a [35:15] there's something and I'm Switzerland [35:16] because in the US Secret Service we [35:17] actually weren't even allowed to talk [35:19] about if we voted for someone we were [35:20] very [35:21] apolitical um and I've always stayed [35:23] that way but from an objective [35:26] standpoint people just like the fact [35:27] that he just says it and he doesn't [35:30] care and sometimes I think people envy [35:33] that did you did you see how they made [35:35] their decisions did you ever observe [35:37] them making tough decisions yes all the [35:39] time you would be behind closed door [35:41] meetings you would hear their ability [35:43] give me an example of this I'm [35:45] interested you know when the stakes are [35:47] that high because a lot of us on a [35:48] day-to-day basis are making fairly [35:49] inconsequential decisions especially in [35:51] the context of running the most powerful [35:53] nation in the world so I'm interested [35:55] when the stakes are that high when [35:57] you've got to get Osama Bin Laden in a [35:59] compound in Pakistan or you know there's [36:01] a there's a terrorist attack how these [36:03] individuals make decisions they're not [36:06] driven by emotion they're very rational [36:09] based decisions I weigh the pros I weigh [36:11] the cons I look at the facts so you very [36:13] RAR if ever and I could probably say [36:15] I've never heard a US president yell [36:18] ever I've never heard a US president [36:20] lose his himself you know when you hear [36:23] them debate or talk about things it's a [36:25] debate I can look at you you can look at [36:27] me I be like Stephen I don't think that [36:29] this is right and you'd say EV well why [36:30] isn't this right if we do it this way [36:32] this way this way this is going to [36:33] happen yeah but Stephen if you do it [36:35] like that and what if this happens and [36:37] these guys die well I don't see it like [36:39] that well Sor I see it this way it's [36:40] like we're going to have to figure it [36:41] out but you're also with people who have [36:44] the ability to sit and withstand their [36:48] their feelings are not so fragile their [36:50] ego Not So Soft that you can actually [36:51] have this debate and that's important [36:53] for you to have in your circle can you [36:56] have these debates with people I would [36:58] call them competing there's a two great [37:00] researchers in the UK Dr Lawrence and [37:03] Emily Allison and they architect people [37:05] as animals and one of the things I talk [37:07] about is someone who's in control and [37:09] setting the agenda is someone who's [37:11] lying I'm a liying and so sometimes we [37:14] have to bring a little bit more line in [37:15] with us or somebody who's competing is [37:18] somebody who's capable of kind of [37:20] debating with you but it doesn't have to [37:23] be ugly I don't have to raise my voice [37:26] or get in your face to break something [37:28] down I can sit there and be rational the [37:31] problem the majority people have is [37:32] they're so invested and emotional they [37:34] bring their feelings hurt their feelings [37:36] into it even something you just brought [37:37] up Trump and you had like a little bit [37:39] of a look like Trump because everyone's [37:41] so emotional when they hear that name [37:43] pull back and be objective it's like let [37:46] me look at this from a factual [37:47] standpoint I'm going to lay this out I'm [37:49] going to lay this out I let let let this [37:51] lay out when you can make decisions [37:55] based on facts and rationality theem go [37:57] out the window you don't want to be an [38:00] emotional decision maker it never goes [38:02] well because you're not thinking clearly [38:04] you're like just going with the wave and [38:06] it's those moments when you say [38:08] something you shouldn't say then [38:09] afterward you regret it why did that [38:11] person get me to say that I went in with [38:12] this intention I got of got pulled in [38:15] this direction this person got me to say [38:16] that no it's always on you cuz you're [38:19] the governor of you the first time you [38:22] got exposed to a president um and you [38:25] spent time around a a president were [38:27] there any things that surprised you any [38:30] things that before then you had a sort [38:31] of Mis sort of ideas of what they were [38:34] like and how they behaved that you [38:35] realize suddenly were like popular [38:37] misconceptions that most people believe [38:39] about presidents and so on I don't know [38:41] if this is a misconception but my first [38:42] time they call it standing post um it [38:45] was for President George W bush he's in [38:48] office I'm standing post for him [38:50] somewhere what does that mean oh [38:51] standing post is when you're new you [38:54] don't get into like the close close [38:56] circle of the president it's Evie here's [38:58] the door and the president's going to [39:01] walk through this door in like eight [39:02] hours from now we're going to sweep it [39:04] check for bombs and everything and your [39:05] job is to stand watch the store for [39:07] eight hours nobody comes through right [39:09] that's it that's called post standing [39:11] you secure the perimeter it's mundane [39:13] right but you do it it's part of the job [39:15] especially when you start so I have my [39:17] one of my first post standing things I'm [39:19] standing by the door and the head agent [39:22] the senior agent's coming around [39:24] checking on us hey you okay you okay you [39:25] need anything it's briefing us [39:27] and then one agent comes and he's like [39:29] you're new right I'm like yeah well I'm [39:30] sort of new I mean I had start under [39:32] Clinton but Bush was my real I don't [39:34] know what but my real hardcore [39:36] assignment and he's like where's your [39:38] phone I said it's here sir he's like is [39:41] that thing off or on silent I said yeah [39:43] he's like don't let Bush hear your phone [39:44] go off and I'm like what do you mean [39:46] he's like if he hears your phone go off [39:47] you're going home he's like he doesn't [39:49] want to hear phones we want like a [39:52] respectable environment a quiet quiet [39:54] environment that thing goes off you're [39:56] gone he sends people home and I was like [39:58] what why would he get so upset with the [39:59] phone I didn't quite understand it now I [40:02] understand it because if everybody's [40:04] doing this and distracted nobody's Focus [40:06] there's things going on it's the energy [40:08] the vibration he was trying to be a [40:10] leader inste boundaries for the [40:12] environment he wanted everybody present [40:14] everybody's focused nobody's on their [40:16] phones no [40:18] shenanigans that really stuck with me [40:20] and you better make sure I took that [40:21] thing out put it all the way down I was [40:23] like the president of the United States [40:25] is not sending me home and they're like [40:27] he does it so though that's something [40:30] like I always remembered and it's it's a [40:32] boundary and it's just something he [40:34] imposed throughout the environment I [40:36] remember thinking wow the president of [40:38] the United States actually sits and I [40:40] don't want to say controls something so [40:42] minute but something so [40:44] small can impact or create this ripple [40:46] effect of the environment that he is [40:49] trying to [40:52] cultivate why did you get that job [40:56] because when I was reading through the [40:58] numbers around how many people sort of [41:00] apply to do the initial training and [41:04] then how many people ultimately get to [41:07] be that that close to these major issues [41:10] it seems like very few people get there [41:13] could you quantify that for me how many [41:14] people dropped out during training how [41:15] many people passed and how many people [41:17] how like rare is it to get to the [41:19] position that you got to so they spend [41:22] like tens of thousands of dollars maybe [41:24] even 100 100K by the time you get hired [41:27] on you so to understand how they select [41:30] you once you get selected like you've [41:33] gone through a rigorous process so for [41:35] example I started in the NYPD when I [41:37] went in it was, 1500 of us and people [41:40] would just quit left and right and they [41:41] wanted you to quit when I went to the US [41:44] Secret Service Academy at that point it [41:46] was like 54 of us but you were hand [41:49] selected so one you apply and I think [41:51] they only take 1% of all applications [41:54] that they get which is like it's easier [41:55] to get into Harvard than and it isn't [41:57] get into the service so out of all the [42:00] applications they only they only select [42:01] 1% to even look at then they decide okay [42:05] I'm going to put this person through the [42:06] process then they make you fill in all [42:08] this paperwork Stephen I can't even tell [42:10] you the amount of weeks it took me write [42:12] essays how you're going to handle [42:13] problems hey they'll give you problem [42:16] scenarios uh and they'll say you have [42:18] this problem how would you handle this [42:20] and they'll give you like you've been [42:21] here what would you do here and they [42:23] have you write out essays and break down [42:26] what you would do then your paperwork so [42:28] they take your paperwork they go through [42:30] all that stuff then they do background [42:33] checks on you criminal checks background [42:35] checks they talk to all your neighbors [42:37] um when I was in the USC when I was [42:40] applying I had studied overseas when I [42:42] was in college and one of the semesters [42:44] I did abroad was in Italy they sent an [42:47] agent to Italy to speak to my college [42:49] professor in Rome to ask him what kind [42:52] of student I was so they do such an [42:55] invasive look into you you do polygraph [42:58] you take a written test it's called The [43:00] Tea exam I think they've changed it but [43:02] it was like in the US it's like they [43:04] call it the SATs it was the SATs on [43:06] steroids that thing was so hard I [43:08] thought for sure I failed it I was like [43:09] there's no way I passed this thing I [43:11] squeak through that and there's all [43:13] these things so by the time you get [43:16] offered they give you it's a conditional [43:18] offer of employment Evie you've passed [43:21] everything so we're going to let you try [43:24] to go to training and then if you pass [43:27] that then you go on probation for like I [43:30] think it's 3 years and then you're good [43:32] then you're truly in but they by the [43:35] time you get to this process where [43:36] you're actually going to training [43:38] because they've dumped so much money in [43:40] you they want you're at that point where [43:43] you're typically going to get through it [43:45] because they don't want you to quit [43:46] because they've dropped a lot of money [43:48] on you so at that point they've really [43:50] invested in you because they believe [43:52] that you can meet the standards and be [43:56] part of a culture that they want so it [43:59] it is hard but they do kick people out [44:01] it happens all the time what is it about [44:03] you then if you reflect in hindsight now [44:05] and go the reason I got through all of [44:07] that is because I [44:09] am I didn't know any [44:12] better I didn't know any better not to [44:14] apply I didn't know any better to know [44:16] that it's 98% men I didn't know any [44:19] better to think that I couldn't do it my [44:22] n my my naiveness as a young woman or [44:25] girl that's what help me get through [44:27] that job I didn't think about it I was [44:29] like why not what were they looking for [44:32] they look for a lot of different things [44:34] I will tell you unequivocally they look [44:35] for trustworthiness if you line your [44:38] stuff and they catch you which later on [44:39] I became one of their polygraph [44:41] examiners and my job became I became the [44:43] person to see if you were trustworthy if [44:46] you had lied to us I was like the last [44:48] layer of Defense um that was a big thing [44:52] Integrity is a big thing cuz their [44:53] mindset was if you can lie about your [44:55] application form or something that [44:57] happened to you when you're 1920 or [44:58] something dumb you did then you're going [45:00] to lie to us about anything cuz it's [45:02] like if you can't own up to your stuff [45:04] you're going to make mistakes here and [45:05] we can't trust you so Integrity is a [45:07] massive thing the other thing that [45:09] really like they call it bqas but better [45:12] qualified applicants that's what you get [45:13] when they don't want you like hey we [45:15] have better qualified applicants that [45:18] competitive [45:19] wise drugs was a big thing people using [45:23] like so drugs played a big role when [45:25] people had a lot of usage that would be [45:27] or when I got on it was like barely [45:30] nothing um that would be a quick thing [45:31] to get you disqualified because [45:34] obviously we work crime criminal cases [45:37] so if I'm working a counterfeit case [45:39] criminal criminals don't really stay in [45:40] one lane they do counterfeit money and [45:43] they do drugs and they do other things [45:46] so they have to know that you can work [45:48] these cases and they don't have to worry [45:50] about you you said you were working in [45:53] as an interrogator I read that you [45:55] traveled the world for roughly about [45:57] eight years for the Secret Service doing [46:00] um polygraph tests and conducting [46:01] interrogations as a polygraph examiner [46:04] you're trying to figure out if people [46:05] are lying you've got a machine in front [46:07] of you right that's telling you giving [46:08] you a bunch of readings and data on [46:10] what's going on physiologically inside [46:12] their body but then also you know in [46:14] interrogations but as a polygraph [46:16] examiner you you you're looking at them [46:17] and you must have a bit of a sort of [46:19] hunch based on like pattern recognition [46:21] when you're looking at their body and [46:22] how they're behaving do you think you [46:24] can predict or do you think you can now [46:27] tell if someone's lying to you or if [46:29] they're being dishonest it happens a lot [46:31] when you speak to people you can I guess [46:33] you can look at it this way you can [46:35] figure out who's full of BS and who [46:37] isn't no one you feel [46:40] it I think your intuition is a huge [46:43] thing and we we dismiss it two people [46:45] show you you create baselines on people [46:47] so if I sit and I speak to someone and [46:49] the whole time they're speaking like [46:50] when you talk Stephen most of your your [46:52] hands are usually here you go on the [46:53] iPad you do this that's your Baseline [46:56] right you do a lock ey contact I've got [46:58] Stephen right now let's say I ask you [47:02] later a question and maybe it's a [47:03] question you don't like right I ask you [47:05] like tell me about your employees at [47:06] work or tell me about the most difficult [47:08] employee you had and how did you deal [47:10] with it and it's something maybe that [47:11] affects you you don't want to talk about [47:12] it you don't want to be honest with me [47:14] you might be like ah you know I and you [47:17] look down I'm like well you know I'll [47:19] see a shift this whole time I'm talking [47:21] to Stephen he's locked in with me he's [47:23] got a certain posture I ask him this [47:25] question he just showed me something [47:28] different why that's it why and then now [47:33] I know to be curious that when you're [47:35] done asking or answering my question I [47:38] come in with good follow-up questions CU [47:40] you're showing me something is happening [47:43] here what most people don't do Stephen [47:46] is they see something it registers and [47:50] they let it go they don't follow up to [47:53] with another question and then another [47:55] question and then another question [47:56] question you don't want to be nosy but [47:59] you want to be curious who's the [48:02] greatest liar you ever [48:04] met can you recall an instance of [48:07] meeting someone who was just a really [48:08] great liar I had this one guy he was [48:11] doing it wasn't a big scam but he was [48:12] doing ATM fraud so you know how you go [48:14] to the ATMs and you you you go you put [48:17] in your card you take out money so he [48:19] was going on to the ATMs and he would [48:21] put us on a skimming device this is a [48:23] very I don't want but a very primitive [48:26] way to stealy [48:27] so he would put on his own skimmer on [48:28] the ATM so when you swipe your card [48:31] you're swiping it on his skimmer so it [48:33] captures all the info so this guy was [48:35] just kind of like very low-level basic [48:37] criminal he's going around to all the [48:39] ATMs in Brooklyn and he's doing this [48:41] skimming device so on the ATMs they take [48:44] photos of you so I've got a photo of [48:46] this guy I've got him he's got his hat [48:48] on I think it was like a New York Knicks [48:50] hat at the time he's got his hat on I've [48:51] got his full frontal we found the guy we [48:54] matched the prince to the prince on the [48:55] ATM boom I've got my guy got my photo [48:58] this easy day I put him in the interview [49:00] room I sit him down hey you know I want [49:03] to talk to you about this first I do [49:04] like a a rapport building what's your [49:06] name where you from talk to me's super [49:09] nice super nice guy yes ma'am okay ma'am [49:12] you know and he was from another country [49:13] I remember so we're talking he's looking [49:16] to me yes and he's very very um wants to [49:19] help me yes I want to help you and I'm [49:21] so you know yes of course like very [49:23] Cooperative overly Cooperative so that's [49:25] my red flag I'm this guy's trying too [49:27] hard and uh sir I want to ask you about [49:30] this ATM scam oh no I don't know [49:32] anything I don't know anything I'm like [49:34] no how about here and I just start [49:36] revealing a couple of things and I've [49:37] got my photo in my background I'm like [49:39] I'm going to bust out this photo this [49:40] guy's going to be like yep that's me [49:43] sorry so as I'm doing this I'm hitting a [49:45] wall no no no I'm sorry Mom I wish I [49:48] could help you no no no so I got the [49:50] photo of the guy do you know he showed [49:51] up to my interview wearing the same hat [49:53] M and I'm thinking I'm locked I'm tight [49:56] pull out the phot phot and I'm like oh [49:57] yeah then what's this put it down on the [50:01] table he looks at [50:02] it oh yeah that's me it looks like me [50:06] but yeah wow I could see no it's not [50:10] me it was him I got he me nothing [50:15] nothing he I will never forget him just [50:17] great liar most people waver this and [50:20] that not this guy he was locked tight he [50:22] suck to that story never gave a [50:23] confession thankfully we had enough to [50:26] charge him I it was ATM fraud [50:30] but not looked at me I'm sorry and you [50:33] know one one of the things people would [50:34] do doesn't doesn't mean people are [50:37] always lying when they do this but one [50:39] of the things I would see a lot of [50:40] guilty people do and he did this a lot I [50:42] swear to God I swear to God God is my [50:45] witness God knows that's not me and so [50:47] we would call it divine intervention [50:49] whenever you'd hear somebody do that you [50:51] knew it's like okay there's a problem [50:53] cuz it's kind of like you're saying why [50:54] do you need God to come in to vouch for [50:56] you or sometimes we actually have people [50:58] com in with Bibles or rosary beads [51:01] whenever you saw that in the waiting [51:02] room that person coming in I was like I [51:04] they'd be like don't even poly them they [51:06] did [51:07] it cuz they're trying so hard to connect [51:10] to that I'm a religious person I would [51:12] never do these things and that those [51:14] were little red flags of course I would [51:16] do my interview but in my back of my [51:17] head I'm like he probably did it what [51:20] about other things like um you're very [51:21] good at keeping eye contact yes is there [51:25] such a thing as too much eye contact [51:27] it depends on the person but I think you [51:29] also need to be you so I make eye [51:31] contact here's the other thing when I [51:33] make eye contact with you I show you one [51:38] I'm confident in myself I also show you [51:41] I deserve to make eye contact with you [51:43] that I am relevant and I don't need to [51:45] look away or hide because I deserve to [51:48] be here and I deserve to be having a [51:50] conversation with [51:51] you right and that I matter that's one [51:55] thing and I also convey Authority and [51:57] confidence you don't have to say [51:59] anything to people you show them I look [52:00] at you I'm comfortable to look at you [52:03] but I can also show you warmth right I [52:05] can connect with you and engage with you [52:07] and be present and listen to you the [52:09] other thing eye contact does it also [52:11] sends the message to you that you matter [52:13] to me that I'm here and that I am [52:16] present with you and that I listening to [52:18] you that I see you and that I want to [52:20] try to understand you so eye contact is [52:23] wonderful because it does two things and [52:26] make makes you real feel relevant and it [52:29] makes me relevant also that I'm relevant [52:33] enough to sit here and look at you when [52:35] I speak and it's another way to convey [52:37] my authority without having to tell you [52:39] hey you know what I'm in charge I don't [52:41] need to tell you I show you what about [52:46] um body language you know because I'm [52:48] thinking about people that I know that [52:49] are particularly low in self-esteem and [52:51] they struggle with eye contact but then [52:52] also sometimes they it's it's almost [52:55] like they make themselves smaller in [52:57] their in their body language and stuff [52:58] like that and I was just thinking [53:00] like I I guess what I'm thinking here is [53:02] can I trick myself can I trick myself [53:04] and other people into thinking I'm [53:06] confident if I'm not is you know because [53:08] there's all this stuff about like the [53:09] Superman posture where you can kind of [53:11] make yourself bigger and look in [53:12] people's eyes but when I reflect on my [53:15] early years when I was least confident [53:17] for some reason I [53:20] couldn't get anyone I was pursuing so I [53:24] remember there was these five girls that [53:26] I over the over the course of about [53:28] since I was from 14 to I'd say 23 that I [53:31] was really into all five of them weren't [53:33] interested in me that we would like we'd [53:35] get a little bit far down the line so [53:38] there was like a little bit of sort of [53:39] initial um interest but then I would [53:42] always lose them and I never knew why I [53:45] never knew why but in but then it [53:47] changed at about 24 and it doesn't [53:49] correlate to like money or success [53:52] necessarily it correlates to my opinion [53:54] of myself and it was was almost like [53:56] magic when I looked back and I thought [53:58] [ __ ] hell like I got rejected over [53:59] and over and over again and when I got [54:01] to the point that I actually believed [54:03] that I was good enough even though I [54:05] read all the books I read up all the [54:06] pickup Artistry books I read the game I [54:08] read all of these books I had the tips [54:09] tactics and tricks to fake it but I but [54:13] it wasn't until I genuinely believed [54:16] that I was high value that I had real [54:20] success with the opposite sex and so it [54:24] left me with this feeling that you can [54:26] read the tips the tricks the eye contact [54:27] the body language but maybe none of it [54:29] works because there's a thousand other [54:31] non-verbal micro Expressions that are [54:33] communicating your low value you don't [54:34] believe in yourself you're not worthy [54:36] that overpower that that we can't really [54:38] control and the reason it changed at 24 [54:40] 25 26 27 is because I genuinely felt [54:44] like I was good enough for them like so [54:47] you know this is why I reflect on this [54:49] idea of like I know people would click [54:51] podcasts like this because they want the [54:53] the tips the tricks they want to get [54:54] from a to Zed in 3 seconds no they want [54:59] to get they want to get from low [55:00] confident low self-esteem all that to at [55:04] the alar with a king and they want to do [55:07] it they want to know how to do it in the [55:09] space of this conversation so that they [55:11] can end this conversation and walk down [55:14] the aisle tomorrow with their prince [55:17] charming that's what people want they [55:19] want to solve complex things with short [55:22] Simple Solutions doesn't exist I know [55:26] this B because I know that if I title [55:27] this like if you title a podcast six [55:30] pack abs in s minutes people are going [55:32] to but if you titled it six pack abs in [55:35] three years of work in diet restriction [55:37] [ __ ] no one's going to click you know [55:39] and it's the same thing for for here and [55:41] life and I'm often wondering like how [55:43] how does someone change the core of [55:44] themselves whether it's as a as a leader [55:46] a manager in a relationship that very [55:48] core of you because in my life it was [55:50] actually just this like long grueling [55:52] process of building myself it was at the [55:54] like retiring from [55:57] caring so much [55:59] about actually getting any of these [56:02] people and just building up this real [56:05] internal Fortress and then everything [56:08] else took care the body language the eye [56:09] contact the way I walk into a room it [56:11] all took care of [56:13] itself and you know but it doesn't sell [56:15] books that like there's no one's going [56:16] to buy that book you know what though it [56:18] is all the little things we do that help [56:20] us get there there's no magic thing [56:22] that's why you're like it took me time [56:24] and what it was is all the little things [56:26] along the lines that that that came it's [56:30] there's no magic thing people sometimes [56:31] come to me and they're like every what's [56:33] the secret and I tell them there's no [56:35] secret the change that you want in your [56:37] life it's all the little things that you [56:39] do it's like think of it like compound [56:40] interest right I do this and then I add [56:44] this layer and then this layer and then [56:45] this layer and then this layer it's like [56:47] the sheets of paper you put one sheet [56:48] it's light two sheets are light three [56:50] sheets but you put a thousand sheets now [56:52] you've got weight that's how we are [56:54] we're layers and we have to add to to [56:56] those layers there's no quick thing you [56:58] know when you know you're going to get [56:59] there when you're Sovereign when you [57:02] feel like I don't need anybody it's [57:05] wonderful to have human beings around me [57:06] and I think connection is it's it's it's [57:09] wonderful but if your goal is I need [57:12] someone to complete me you're done and I [57:15] think also it's so wild cuz I'm thinking [57:17] about my youth as you're talking about [57:18] yours when I became [57:20] Sovereign like where I'm like I'm good [57:23] enough I'm good as I am you become a [57:26] magnet I became a magnet people like [57:29] well I wanted that I want to be around [57:31] that I want to be around her everywhere [57:33] people like how do you it's like because [57:35] I believe in me but it took time to [57:37] believe in me and when you became [57:40] Sovereign yes everyone was just like but [57:42] how did your behavior change those micro [57:44] behaviors I stopped chasing things and [57:46] chasing people yeah I stopped looking [57:48] for approval I stopped trying to people [57:50] please right and I just TR I trusted [57:53] myself I also stopped taking inventory [57:55] from everybody asking everybody their [57:57] opinion and I also though but I also had [57:59] I dealt with a lot of rejection a lot of [58:02] like rejection a lot of people not [58:03] agreeing with me I gossip growing up [58:06] there was a lot I took a lot of heavy [58:07] hits and those things made me resilient [58:10] those things taught me to like not you [58:13] know to stay my course like you know and [58:16] I've shared this before but when I [58:18] became an agent or I put in for NYPD my [58:20] the community of friends and people I [58:22] had around me thought it was ridiculous [58:23] they thought it was silly I remember [58:25] after [58:26] when I started dating after I became an [58:28] agent there was one guy a friend of [58:30] mine's a good friend of mine's brother [58:32] she was trying to hook me up with him [58:34] this before my husband my husband knows [58:36] everything and uh uh so I'm like all [58:39] right you know he was a nice Greek guy [58:40] I'm Greek I'm stay I'm keeping it in the [58:42] community cuz you're supposed to um so [58:45] I'm talking to him and I'm like yeah and [58:47] I'm thinking like I went through so much [58:49] to become a special agent with the US [58:51] Secret Service and do you know he said [58:52] to me he's like so uh like when you get [58:55] married are you going to quit that job [58:56] and you know ditch this I mean like how [58:58] long are you going to do this like he [59:00] spoke about it like it was nothing like [59:01] it was trivial and I heard that and I [59:04] was just like wait what like dude you [59:07] couldn't get into the Secret Service if [59:09] like like with your like there's no like [59:12] with all your might and when he was like [59:15] said that to me and his job he owned the [59:17] diner and he owned he owned a diner food [59:21] his success was wealth and money and [59:22] some cultures including mine and the [59:24] community I was in they they measured [59:26] success with money like what I was doing [59:29] was not [59:30] successful but I had the ability to be [59:32] Sovereign enough to like not listen I [59:34] was just like no that's not my belief [59:36] system my moral compass and um I stopped [59:40] caring then I dated another guy who knew [59:42] I was in the Secret Service and I really [59:44] like this guy it was this Italian kid [59:46] and I'm thinking he's going to be so [59:47] proud of me I got in and we went on this [59:49] date and he had just broken up with [59:51] someone Stephen like he was so [59:55] uncomfortable around me why cuz I was an [59:58] agent they that was like a freak show it [60:01] was weird I think today's a little [60:02] different maybe at that time and do you [60:05] think men struggle with strong women I [60:07] think certain men do I think I think men [60:10] who are not confident in themselves if [60:13] you're steady you don't care what [60:15] somebody else is you're cheering for [60:17] them I ended up dating an agent and [60:20] marrying him so because my husband's so [60:22] steady and Sovereign in himself I could [60:25] do whatever [60:26] and he'd be like you [60:29] go you had your first child at 45 years [60:32] old I had my daughter at 40 excuse me 46 [60:35] my daughter's 18 months old your [60:37] daughter gets to 18 and she's she's just [60:41] she just can't get out of bed she's lazy [60:43] she's blaming the world she's saying [60:46] listen this is this person's fault and [60:48] this person's fault and I you know I [60:50] just can't be bothered where' you start [60:53] well look if I've done a good job and my [60:55] husband and I have done a good job and [60:57] again it's it's not 100% us we should [60:59] have hopefully by that point put in [61:01] certain structures in place to prevent [61:03] that I'll give you a small example I've [61:05] never put an iPhone in front of her I [61:07] have no working television in my [61:09] house because I control what she [61:13] absorbs not the internet and I'm going [61:15] to hold on to that as long as possible [61:17] because I've seen with these the cell [61:19] phones I'm a grown ass adult and I'll [61:21] look at stuff and it impacts me and I'm [61:23] like I can't look at this or I'll [61:24] unfollow things or I'll go social I [61:26] don't want to see it I cover news I [61:28] cover crime child I cover really heinous [61:30] things and there are times where I do [61:31] the news I do the news Stephen I don't [61:33] watch it so there are little things that [61:36] I can do so up until this point 18 [61:38] months it's a lot more work for me and [61:40] my family there's no social device [61:43] there's no cell phone I control that I [61:45] kind of look at it I want to know what [61:48] what's feeding her mind the way I choose [61:50] to make her food I choose what goes in [61:52] the mind I control it and a lot of [61:55] parents will come to me and I'll tell [61:56] them if you're not comfortable dropping [61:58] your kid in the middle of Time Square to [62:00] talk to [62:01] whoever then you get that thing out of [62:03] their hands because now somebody else is [62:05] putting ideas in your kid's head I have [62:08] no control over that zero and that's [62:11] powerful that's one and especially we [62:13] see it affect little girls and again I'm [62:15] a grown woman and social media impacts [62:17] me and the moment I'm like I put that [62:19] thing away that's one no TV in my house [62:22] because TV is like when I was a kid you [62:24] had cartoons Saturday morning that was [62:26] it and you had to wait for those [62:27] cartoons I mean I was like tomorrow [62:30] cartoons so this instant gratification [62:33] process that kids have that's that [62:35] that's why you here like help me get to [62:37] he fast she's never going to learn how [62:39] to work hard she's going to be lazy [62:41] she's going to lay in bed she's going to [62:43] get depressed quicker she's going to [62:44] have anxiety so I'm doing everything I [62:47] can to impact those things they're [62:50] little seeds it's little things so that [62:52] by the time she's 18 I hope in my heart [62:56] I have done my best but I also [62:58] understand I'm 50% she's 50% so as much [63:02] as I try to help navigate her she's [63:04] going to be her own person and I'm going [63:07] to have to listen understand what her [63:10] value systems are what she cares about [63:13] but her exposure to them is reg I [63:16] regulate that even the school she's [63:17] going to go to I sit there I'm already [63:19] thinking about where I'm going to put [63:20] her to school and I don't I'm like do I [63:22] want her in a public school I don't know [63:25] I don't want her being like mom I want a [63:26] Gucci belt and you know labels and all [63:29] this stuff I was like I don't want her [63:30] to think like that I want her to have a [63:33] different mindset I'm like so I'm [63:34] creating in my head how do I do that [63:36] another thing I do super small I take [63:38] her to gree with me every summer do you [63:40] know where we go in Greece in the [63:41] village Village I'm talking like [63:43] bathroom in the back hardcore like rug [63:47] in it my parents grew up in villages I [63:49] grew up in that I lived in that in the [63:50] summer June July August September I was [63:52] in the village in fact the the bathroom [63:55] was connected to the chicken coup Would [63:57] You Let Her Fly business class no the [64:00] only time I fly business class is when [64:02] somebody else is paying why because I'm [64:05] saving my [64:07] money because business class is [64:09] expensive because I work really hard and [64:12] I'm okay to sit in the back so business [64:14] class there has to be a really good [64:16] reason why I'm going to dish out that [64:17] money for business class for myself let [64:19] alone my daughter [64:22] economy [64:24] economy my poor kid right she to grow up [64:27] a m like you can keep all your stuff to [64:29] yourself you um one of the things we we [64:31] were chatting about before we started [64:32] recording was that your favorite days [64:34] are when you work out you go to the gym [64:37] why why is that so important to you why [64:39] is exercise so Central to to everything [64:41] that you do in your [64:42] mind there's I think that there's a [64:44] school of like the mind and the body are [64:47] two separate things and a lot of people [64:49] be like I'm working on my mind I listen [64:50] to podcast which is great but then they [64:52] don't work out their body and and these [64:55] things live together I learned this in [64:57] the Secret Service like these things [64:59] were they're married so if you're [65:01] depressed and you're not getting off the [65:04] sofa there's a problem your body needs [65:07] help I work with uh I train out with Don [65:10] saladino even me with all my experience [65:13] like sometimes we need somebody to push [65:14] us and accountability is a big thing so [65:17] I always tell people if you're [65:18] struggling have somebody be accountable [65:20] for you Don who I work with and I train [65:22] with he makes me take a photo of every [65:25] meal I eat and text it to him he's like [65:28] I want to see what you're putting in [65:29] your mouth and every time I'm about to [65:31] have something that I shouldn't I think [65:33] to myself I got to send this to Don so [65:35] he's going to police it so having [65:37] somebody help you is also a good thing [65:39] but your body is your temple you get one [65:42] of these we take better care of our cars [65:45] than we do this and then we wonder why [65:48] am I depressed because you have to move [65:50] this you have to take care of it [65:52] everything in the US Secret Service was [65:53] about performance this is your your this [65:56] is your home it houses your mind it [65:58] houses your soul and we treat it like [66:01] garbage and we give it garbage when I [66:04] run and I work out at night all the [66:06] stress I'm like any other human being I [66:08] accumulate stress people's anx stuff [66:11] coming at me and I need a way to release [66:13] it so at night I go run and I let it out [66:17] there's been times in my life I could [66:18] think of two distinct times I remember [66:20] once and I don't remember what it was [66:21] but I had such a stressful hard day see [66:25] I went to the track to run I remember it [66:27] was freezing it was Winter it was [66:29] snowing and I was just like I was just [66:32] like on the verge of just like just pure [66:35] emotion and rage I started [66:37] running I was like talking to myself I [66:39] was running I'm balling my eyes are [66:41] balding balding I look like a crazy [66:43] person to the outside world but I ran it [66:46] all out and when I was done I was back [66:49] to me the the the physical element of [66:52] our body is such an important thing and [66:55] we treat treat them as two separate [66:57] entities and and and they you have to [67:00] take care of what houses your soul and [67:02] your [67:04] mind you strike me as someone that [67:07] is pretty Fearless I I I say pretty [67:10] because we all I think we all have fear [67:12] in us I think fear is a useful natural [67:14] emotion but you you're someone that [67:16] clearly has built up an in uh a more [67:20] productive relationship with fear than [67:21] most people when you think back of your [67:23] sort of Secret Service experience was [67:25] there a day where you were more scared [67:27] than another day IE what was the most [67:29] scared you were during your time in the [67:31] Secret Service do you know I had this [67:33] one scenario and I don't think I ever [67:35] talked about it I'm in downtown [67:37] Manhattan I'm with my colleague and [67:39] we're driving to a Secret Service uh [67:41] meeting we were going to go arrest [67:43] somebody the next day and we were going [67:44] to the briefing with this other [67:46] department we were going to do our our [67:48] pre-arrest briefing about how we're [67:49] going to go in tactically so we're [67:51] driving to this meeting and as we're [67:53] going to this meeting we're in downtown [67:55] Manhattan [67:56] and uh somebody runs out of a it was a [67:58] jewelry store this man runs out of a [68:00] jewelry store and these other people are [68:02] out there running with them and they're [68:03] yelling and they see us and I guess they [68:06] realize that we were in a police car [68:07] even though was undercover they just [68:08] stand out they're like help help get him [68:11] get him and the way they were acting you [68:13] think he would have shot somebody shot [68:15] somebody and we can see as you see them [68:18] screaming and yelling help help you see [68:20] this other person running away so my [68:23] partner flips on the lights we start [68:25] driving and we're chasing this person [68:27] now I can't see this person I see their [68:29] back they have a hoodie on they're [68:31] running from the posture of it of it it [68:33] looked like a male and it looked like a [68:35] guy running so he's running lights on we [68:38] get on the thing stop running stop [68:40] running he's not listening to anything [68:43] he goes he turns the black we're still [68:44] chasing him then he turns into a a [68:47] parking garage in New York City that [68:49] there's these parking garages and they [68:50] go all the way underground so he turns [68:52] in so we can't go in with the car we're [68:54] going in blind we pull up we get [68:58] ourselves out and as we're going in [69:00] we're clearing people out but you could [69:01] also see people running out I guess they [69:02] could tell something was wrong people [69:04] are leaving and now we're thinking does [69:05] this guy have a gun like what's going on [69:07] cuz people are responding very [69:10] agitatedly to the scenario we go in we [69:12] pull everybody out everybody get out get [69:14] out so we go to the bottom level of the [69:17] parking garage where we believe he's at [69:19] lights are it's dark and we go in police [69:22] come out police come out he's not [69:23] listening we're looking for him [69:25] underneath all these cars and then I see [69:26] him he's underneath the car and I I go [69:29] to my partner I sing to my partner cuz [69:30] he's like on the other side I'm like hey [69:32] I'm like he's right down he's right [69:34] there now we can't see him my partner's [69:36] like I'm going to go around so my [69:37] partner goes around and he he didn't [69:40] listen to me my partner so I blame him a [69:41] little bit he went too prematurely [69:43] before we kind of figured out what what [69:45] he goes to go grab him from behind so [69:47] now my partner's out in the open this [69:49] guy's out there I see him I don't know [69:51] if he has a weapon we have enough to he [69:54] ran from us right so these things are [69:56] escalating let me see your hands let me [69:58] see your hands nothing let me see your [70:00] hands put your hands out I can see you I [70:02] see you under the car let me see your [70:03] hands cuz now I'm worried he's going to [70:04] shoot my partner cuz my partner's out in [70:06] the open trying to get to him let me see [70:09] your hands so then I pull my gun out and [70:12] I pointed at him let me see your hands [70:15] let me see your hands and I'm thinking [70:17] please show your hands because now I'm [70:19] in this cross between if this thises guy [70:21] have a gun and if he has a gun any [70:23] second he's going to kill my partner and [70:25] I had a choice where I was like do I do [70:28] you shoot because I think he's gonna [70:30] shoot my partner because he's not [70:32] showing me his hands and he's fidgeting [70:34] do I not shoot give him the benefit of [70:36] the doubt and then he does shoot my [70:37] partner and now I'm responsible for the [70:39] death of my partner or if he doesn't [70:40] have a gun am I responsible cuz now I [70:43] just shot him and he didn't have a gun [70:45] and you're doing this this thing in your [70:47] head and there's no way to win and it's [70:49] happening in [70:50] seconds I couldn't see his hands I chose [70:53] not to shoot I'm praying [70:55] that he doesn't shoot my partner he has [70:58] no gun he's not showing his hands and [71:00] then I'm like I'm going to shoot you [71:01] please show your hands show your hands [71:03] and then my partner goes from behind and [71:04] then the guy's like fine fine he's like [71:05] put your gun away he's screaming he puts [71:07] his hands out my partner pulls him up [71:09] from the back and we get him then we [71:11] come around I'm pissed I'm so [71:14] pissed we sit him down we cuff him I [71:17] pull his hoodie out 16-year-old [71:20] kid I searched his pockets you know what [71:23] he did he sold one stole one of those [71:26] big gold crosses that is all he did cuz [71:30] I pulled out his ID I checked his ID I [71:32] was like do you know I almost shot you [71:34] for this do you know we chased you down [71:36] for this you almost died for this stupid [71:39] cross so we call the cops they come that [71:42] stayed with me because I almost killed [71:44] an innocent person for what for [71:47] nothing that was probably very powerful [71:50] I was afraid I've been scenarios where [71:53] the the death was on my receiving in and [71:55] I was okay with that but I wasn't okay [71:57] with this because I thought there was a [71:59] split second where I was deciding do I [72:01] shoot him because he's not following my [72:03] instructions I cannot see his hand my [72:05] partner's out there he could kill my [72:07] partner I don't know if he has a gun I [72:09] had all these escalating reasons to [72:11] think that and I chose not to shoot what [72:14] is your mental health like generally and [72:17] throughout your career because people [72:18] talk about mental health they talk about [72:19] anxiety you know depression low moods [72:22] and stuff Have you [72:23] ever experienced what people describe as [72:25] mental health [72:27] disorders I I don't this is terrible I [72:30] don't think so I think I'm trying to [72:35] think I mean like any human being I go [72:37] through moments but I don't let myself [72:39] live there I guess I always feel like [72:41] I'm the [72:42] governor I will say this it is okay to [72:45] be depressed it is okay to have anxiety [72:48] it is okay to feel bad I think maybe [72:50] that's the issue because we're in a [72:52] space where oh you're depressed you [72:54] there's something wrong with you you [72:55] have anxiety whoa I had anxiety every [72:58] day when I went to training I always had [73:00] anxiety when I put my vest on and I was [73:02] protecting the present I would carry my [73:04] MP5 which is like [73:05] this a weapon that basically like could [73:09] go into automatic you could cause [73:10] serious damage like that anxiety I'm [73:12] like man is today the day those are okay [73:15] things to have so I feel like maybe we [73:17] should change the narrative and [73:18] normalize feeling bad instead of making [73:21] people feel like you're sad take this [73:23] pill you have have anxiety something's [73:26] wrong with that why is that bad why do I [73:29] have to be like every ridiculous [73:30] commercial a cuz in the US we we we [73:32] advertise prescription medication where [73:34] I'm smiling all the time and Happy my [73:36] barometer for life is not to be happy [73:39] the the moments that I've done the most [73:41] amazing things in my life I've not been [73:42] happy I've been fulfilled I've been like [73:45] man I just did that when I woke up when [73:47] I would wake up at 3:00 a.m. to go to [73:48] the White House to stamp post for 10 [73:51] hours outside the Oval Office in the [73:52] freezing cold in the winter I wasn't [73:54] happy I was freezing I was cold but you [73:56] know what I was like man how did I get [73:59] here was there ever a day when you [74:01] thought the president's life was at risk [74:02] and you were around him was there ever a [74:05] moment where you thought you're every [74:06] day but but was there a particular day [74:08] where you thought no oh we're screwed or [74:10] that he was going to be [74:11] attacked was there ever a moment where [74:13] you genuinely thought there was a [74:15] genuine threat on his life just [74:18] wondering yes and no yes in [74:22] that like when you would do outdoor [74:25] events like certain events where he was [74:27] very vulnerable like he's speaking to a [74:29] crowd of 10,000 [74:31] people there's so many things that could [74:33] go wrong right so those events like [74:37] there was definitely that Threat Level [74:39] was heightened um but we had just put [74:43] get man the agency was just such a [74:45] competent agency and there were so many [74:47] layers of security put in things that [74:50] you don't you don't see but it's the [74:52] snipers it's the counter assault team [74:55] it's the air restrictions no planes [74:57] flying above ground because we put those [74:59] into place it's even rad radiation [75:02] detection nuclear there's so many things [75:04] we do that you the the average person [75:06] has no idea about all the the protocols [75:10] we put in place so I can't say the [75:13] president per se because I feel like he [75:14] got all the bells and whistles but maybe [75:17] there were times where it was hard to [75:18] protect certain people and that that's [75:21] where I felt it was harder when I [75:23] protected bar Bush Bush's daughter when [75:26] I had her that was hard because I did [75:29] not have the resources that you would [75:32] have for [75:34] President and she wanted to be a young [75:36] girl and go out and date and go to clubs [75:38] and go to Coachella and do these things [75:40] I had to take her to Coachella and I'm [75:44] thinking I got to keep her alive and [75:46] this you know it's Coachella and how [75:48] many people are coal it's like T [75:51] thousand hundreds I don't even know at [75:53] this point so those scenarios were [75:55] usually the most uneasy for me because I [75:59] had limited resources and it was a very [76:02] different environment and they want to [76:03] live their life is there anything that [76:05] you can't talk about because sure if you [76:08] ask me something I can't answer I'll [76:09] tell you but is I'm I'm interested to [76:11] know what you're unable to talk about [76:13] you can talk about the cars okay what [76:16] the way that the cars work in the [76:17] security systems yeah the weight [76:18] technical mechanical things with the [76:20] cars because you have to think of it [76:22] this way anything I share here you're [76:24] going to have people that follow you [76:26] that listen but you're also going to [76:27] have Bad actors who listen to these [76:29] interviews to gather information CU they [76:31] want to carry out an attack I always [76:33] think like that so there are certain [76:34] things you can't share I can't share [76:36] certain things about Air Force One I [76:38] can't share certain things about like [76:40] how we positioned ourselves like even [76:43] though you'll see agents around the [76:45] president there's a schematic that we [76:47] follow that the average person won't [76:50] understand how we move our vehicles how [76:52] they're positioned and why uh how we how [76:55] we would fight an attacker like there's [76:58] scenarios we play and movements that [77:00] exist it's like a dance do you have to [77:02] sign a form when you leave or before you [77:04] start to say that I'll never speak about [77:06] certain things do you know initially no [77:09] there was no such thing cuz there was [77:10] such a level of trust you didn't need it [77:13] you didn't need it and then one agent [77:16] and I love him he came out and he [77:18] started talking about things he [77:20] shouldn't have talked about um and as [77:23] soon as he did that the ndas came which [77:26] is a little sad because up until that [77:29] point it was really just everything we [77:31] did was based on the honor [77:33] System did you ever have any form of [77:35] imposter syndrome you know we talked [77:36] earlier that when you joined the Secret [77:38] Service there was what 98% men or [77:40] something crazy it was and so as a woman [77:43] in that environment I know that you [77:45] underwent a lot of prejudice a lot of [77:48] discrimination a lot of comments did [77:52] that ever leave you feeling like you [77:54] were somewhere you weren't supposed to [77:56] be or what you know as they describe it [77:57] as imposter syndrome so I hate that word [78:00] mhm and I don't live it let it live in [78:02] my head and it's like who invented that [78:04] word I think there's like these two [78:05] researches and I want to say I could be [78:07] completely wrong so everybody be kind to [78:09] me if I'm making a mistake but I had [78:11] looked into it and I can't remember and [78:12] I think it was two researchers who [78:14] invented it specifically for [78:16] women so I don't have imposter syndrome [78:20] I earned to where I got I killed myself [78:23] to get there so I always felt like oh [78:26] wow how did I get here but I'm like I [78:28] got here so I never let that live in my [78:30] head and take up real estate so one is [78:33] my NE my naiveness and my ignorance [78:37] allowed me to get to where I was because [78:39] I didn't have this narrative I shouldn't [78:41] be there by whose [78:43] standard that's one the other thing is [78:46] I'm not going to dismiss and say that I [78:48] did not endure difficult things of [78:50] course I did I was a woman yes these [78:52] things happened I remember once I was at [78:54] a brief I was a brand new we're at this [78:56] one briefing it's me and all these guys [78:59] and then um there's a boss giving a [79:02] briefing to everybody he locked eye [79:04] contact with everybody except me he [79:06] wouldn't look at me the whole briefing [79:08] after every brief and then I ended [79:09] having ended up having it for a boss for [79:11] a lot of things it's like I wasn't there [79:13] he looked at everybody else I knew [79:15] intuitively it's like he feels weird [79:17] looking at me cuz I'm a woman like okay [79:21] I was like I still deserve to be here [79:25] in those environments if someone's not [79:27] if you feel like your manager or your [79:29] your boss or your or the CEO or even [79:32] like a colleague isn't showing you [79:36] respect and I I I've read your story so [79:38] I know that this happened multiple times [79:39] in your life whether there' be someone [79:40] around you that wasn't showing you the [79:42] respect you deserve um and I have a lot [79:44] of people that come up to me and they [79:45] say I'm struggling because my boss is [79:47] not showing me respect or my colleague [79:49] this colleague isn't listening to me or [79:52] all these kinds of things [79:55] where where does your mind default to [79:57] when I say that like where do you go to [79:58] in your mind what's your like action a [80:01] so with the last one you just said my my [80:03] colleagues don't listen to me I would [80:05] come back and I would say give me an [80:07] example of where they don't listen to [80:08] you right so I would say to you when you [80:10] do speak do you look at people when you [80:13] speak do you project your voice so it's [80:16] called paralinguistics everyone's so [80:18] focused on what they say like reading my [80:20] notes or reading my agenda they don't [80:21] think about the tone pitch of the voice [80:24] how are you deling this are you [80:25] projecting your voice or do you do you [80:27] talk like this when you speak I have a [80:30] question I just want to share [80:31] something people going to like glaze [80:34] over I have a question or or even just [80:38] the tone how you end hi am heavie hi [80:42] heavie feels different mhm those are [80:46] simple things you can do to make sure [80:47] people hear you the other thing [80:50] is I say this a lot when I speak to [80:53] companies cuz communicate is a big thing [80:55] don't just talk to talk there's this [80:57] thing out there and especially with [80:59] women where it's like make sure they [81:01] hear you make sure your voice is heard [81:04] at the table I'm fine with that do you [81:06] have something beneficial to say or [81:08] value to say because if you don't don't [81:11] say anything half the meetings I go to I [81:13] don't speak because I maybe I have [81:16] nothing to say it's so interesting I am [81:19] from being in many boardrooms for many [81:21] many years probably 15 years being in [81:22] marketing boardrooms not 15 years about [81:24] 10 years is being in marketing [81:25] boardrooms with CEOs with my team with [81:27] lots of different people lots of [81:28] different teams I've had thousands and [81:30] thousands of meetings I eventually [81:32] observe something in myself which is a [81:34] bit of a Prejudice that I have which is [81:37] the minute someone [81:39] speaks based on their contribution score [81:42] which is like a credit score based on [81:44] all of the contributions you made in the [81:46] past in those first couple of seconds if [81:49] their previous contributions were all [81:51] valuable everyone in the room would stop [81:53] and look and lean in [81:55] but if they if they developed a low [81:56] contribution score because they' [81:58] continually talked for the sake of [81:59] talking i. they just like I'll give you [82:01] an example um in my New York office back [82:04] in the day there was this one one guy [82:08] who we'd be in a brainstorm trying to [82:11] solve a problem and he would start [82:13] speaking and you you you'd see by the [82:16] way he started speaking that had hadn't [82:17] actually thought through what he was [82:18] going to say and he' go what about um if [82:22] we put a I don't know like a popup and [82:27] uh like maybe we'll do [82:29] some Tik toks uh and so honestly what I [82:33] then observed from that individual is [82:35] every time they open their mouth people [82:38] would instantly basically like dismiss [82:39] the idea because they had such a low [82:41] contribution score and like we all have [82:44] a contribution score you have one I have [82:47] one based on the last 10 years of when [82:49] we've opened our mouth how valuable it [82:51] was to the people around us like that [82:52] individual whenever he spoke EV I would [82:55] see the person sat next to him who I [82:56] won't name almost like loky roll their [82:59] eyes in the first five seconds and shut [83:01] it down before he'd even got it out and [83:03] then there was this other guy called in [83:05] my UK office called Paul never spoke [83:07] like never really said anything super [83:09] mature super experienced guy the minute [83:11] he said anything because every time he [83:13] opened his mouth it was important and [83:14] valuable and considered everyone went he [83:16] could interrupt anyone the instant [83:18] silence everyone stares over at this guy [83:21] because when he contributed we all knew [83:23] that he had something valuable to add [83:26] and I so I would say to my team I said [83:27] this to this team that we're here with [83:28] us in New York like just make sure you [83:30] project your contributions goore that I [83:32] think that's such a brilliant way to say [83:34] it yes you're prob yes it's like it's [83:37] your score because people keep tabs on [83:39] you yeah they know Stephen's going to [83:41] say something he doesn't always speak [83:42] but if he's going to say something every [83:44] time he drops something he drops [83:46] something of value where people think [83:48] like I have to talk because everyone [83:50] tells me I have to talk make my voice [83:52] heard no shut up and if if you're silent [83:54] then you're not of value that's what [83:55] people think they think you didn't add [83:57] anything right or you didn't take [83:58] anything away either yes I will tell you [84:01] this too Stephen when I go to meetings [84:02] there sometimes I go to meetings and if [84:03] I'm the dumbest person in the room I'm [84:06] the happiest person MH that's the one [84:08] time where I'm happy because I'm [84:09] thinking wow look at all these smart [84:11] people around me and I get to be part of [84:13] this I get to listen I love to sit back [84:16] and listen there's times I just had a [84:18] meeting with like my scripted agent [84:21] Sylvie with my manager about some TV [84:23] project and I knew enough to know to say [84:26] I they're like hey eie this and this and [84:27] I said you know what this is space I [84:29] don't know I'm going to follow your lead [84:32] fill me in I'm taking a seat back you [84:34] guys do the talking I'm going to let you [84:36] in on a little secret what is in the [84:39] Diary of a CEO Cup this cup that sits in [84:41] front of me when I interview these [84:43] people sometimes for 3 hours and [84:45] sometimes three people a day and the [84:46] answer is this perfect T I invested in [84:49] the company on Dragon's Den and since [84:51] then they've gone from an idea to the [84:53] fastest growing energy drink in the UK [84:56] it is a mat energy drink and it is [84:59] absolutely delicious but that's not why [85:01] I choose to drink it on this podcast the [85:03] reason I choose to drink it is because [85:04] it gives me what I call all day energy I [85:07] don't get the same crashes that I used [85:08] to get with other energy drinks if [85:10] you're in the middle of a conversation [85:11] or you're in the middle of a talk on [85:12] stage or in the boardroom the last thing [85:14] you want to do is have a crash you don't [85:17] want Jitters and you need focus and that [85:19] is why they now sponsor this podcast not [85:22] only is it delicious but it gives me a [85:24] significant competitive Advantage if you [85:26] haven't tried it go down to a Tesco go [85:28] to a waitrose or go online and use the [85:30] code diary 10 at checkout and you'll get [85:33] 10% off and when you do try it let me [85:35] know how you get on you're someone who [85:37] has a default to taking responsibility [85:40] you know like the op the opposite I [85:41] guess of taking responsibility is [85:43] becoming a victim which we talked a [85:44] little bit about before we started [85:45] recording but people don't like taking [85:47] responsibility it it it almost is like [85:50] holding a mirror up to yourself it's [85:51] much easier to go through life blaming [85:53] the world blaming the government blaming [85:56] circumstance luck parents the guy that [86:00] did it to me my ex-boyfriend my [86:01] ex-husband it's a much easier way it's a [86:03] much more comfortable way to exist [86:05] within your mind for most for most [86:07] people for a lot of people I amum I sat [86:09] with a guy called M that many years ago [86:11] and he the first time he came on my [86:12] podcast and he told me that when he [86:13] writes a book he gets 500 people at [86:16] random members of the public to go into [86:18] a Google doc and kind of read through it [86:19] and he goes for some reason when people [86:21] got to the section about personal [86:22] responsibility about 10% of people just [86:23] click off [86:26] because they don't want to read that [86:27] because nothing's my fault they don't [86:29] want someone to tell them that [86:32] they can change their life and I've [86:35] always found that really bizarre like [86:37] people people don't want to know that [86:40] they some people don't want to know that [86:43] wherever they are now and where they [86:45] want to be will largely be based in most [86:48] circumstances not all be based on what [86:51] they do now and tomorrow and the day [86:53] after there's something about [86:56] victimhood which both alleviates [86:59] um blame from [87:02] ourselves and makes us [87:04] feel justified in our [87:07] misery do you know I but some people [87:10] want to live there it becomes their [87:12] identity so I am [87:14] this I am how I am today because of this [87:17] thing that happened to me a long time [87:19] ago I remember working with this woman [87:21] there was a window during Co when people [87:22] were writing to me and I was like [87:25] it's quiet let me do consultations and I [87:27] did consultation mentors and I had this [87:28] one woman come to me and I would get [87:30] people like what you're talking about [87:32] every now and then usually when most [87:33] people came to me though they knew what [87:35] they were getting but I would have [87:37] people come to me that just wanted me to [87:39] validate that somebody else did this to [87:41] you or you're okay to feel this way [87:43] there one woman came to me she was a [87:46] therapist and she came to me and she [87:48] told me about some hardship she had when [87:50] she was young I think what what she had [87:52] was she grew up with no money was very [87:54] traumatic she had to take care of her [87:56] brother and she there was a term for it [87:57] I forgot it was a clinical term and [87:59] because of that trauma today she has all [88:02] these issues and so she's like I have a [88:04] hard time talking FR of people I have [88:06] anxiety and she was telling me this [88:07] stuff I said why don't we leave what [88:10] happened to you here here let's leave it [88:12] there I said and let's look at what [88:14] we're doing because you're telling me [88:15] eie I want to perform in life but it's [88:19] like you've just bought yourself this [88:20] brand new Porsche and you're like this [88:22] thing won't go past 50 or 60 why [88:24] because I'm like cuz you have this big [88:25] ass U-Haul attached to it and it can't [88:28] so why don't we leave this back there [88:29] and we'll move forward would you believe [88:31] Stephen she lost her mind she's like how [88:34] dare you how dare you dismiss what I've [88:37] been through how dare you read the room [88:40] I will never forget [88:42] her and the thing was it was so part of [88:45] who she was today it was her it defined [88:48] her so much she didn't want to leave it [88:50] behind she just wanted to talk about it [88:52] more and so sometimes people why doesn't [88:54] she want to leave it behind do you think [88:56] because it's her identity it's who she [88:57] is it's like people who have been [88:59] through something um an experience I [89:03] will give you another example September [89:05] 11th so I was in the World Trade Center [89:07] on September 11th I survived I was [89:09] almost killed I lost colleagues and [89:10] friends but I was [89:12] also around other people who experienced [89:14] what I experienced and [89:16] different different people behave [89:18] differently and there were some people [89:20] that would reach out to me remember this [89:22] one guy he was a medic [89:24] and he saw what I saw he experienced [89:26] what I experienced and he just couldn't [89:30] recover and he would call me up he's [89:32] like eie I'm struggling I'm struggling [89:33] and I tell him I'm like I think his name [89:35] was Jerry I'm like Jerry I'm like leave [89:37] it it's done we're here it's like where [89:39] we go and he couldn't and all he did was [89:42] talk about it and the other thing he did [89:44] is he went to therapy a lot of it and I [89:47] was like dude I was like I don't think [89:49] you should be going therapy about this [89:51] stop talking about [89:52] it I was like like you're reliving it [89:55] every time like therapy is supposed to [89:58] like it's a hypocritic oath Do no harm [90:00] like therapy is supposed to help you [90:01] move forward but if I was like if I went [90:03] to therapy every week and I talked about [90:04] 911 I'd be a mess I was like leave it [90:09] let it be where it is in the past and [90:12] like what do you do with what we [90:13] experienced and how do we move forward [90:15] and how do we help other [90:17] people and I like that was a scenario [90:20] where I was like if you keep reliving [90:22] this trauma like you become it and it [90:25] was him it was him he left being a medic [90:27] he Lo his marriage he got a divorce like [90:30] his whole life just fell apart but do [90:33] you know he wanted to stay there he [90:35] didn't want to leave it it was what it [90:38] was it defined who he was I met another [90:41] dude I shouldn't say dude but I met [90:44] another man who I knew he was an iron [90:47] worker nice guy he does a lot of stuff [90:49] around 9/11 but I remember once I [90:50] interviewed him for a news thing he [90:53] didn't know anything about me this was [90:54] strictly newed as a journalist after I [90:56] left the Secret Service and it was a 911 [90:59] piece we were doing I didn't say [91:01] anything cuz of course it's not about me [91:02] it's about him I remember putting his [91:04] mics on and doing stuff and getting [91:06] ready to do my video thing with him he [91:08] had like 911 tattoos all over his [91:11] arms and like he had a 911 room he's [91:13] like let me show you my room and again I [91:15] said nothing I remember thinking I'm [91:18] like I like I can't I would never tattoo [91:20] the towers on my arms I was like I I [91:22] can't I'm like what mental mindset are [91:25] you going to be in and he had a room [91:27] with all his 911 stuff I was like I [91:29] don't I have a Valor W it's not it's [91:31] under my bed I my dad had took it he [91:34] hung it then when he passed away I took [91:35] it and I put it I put it away again it's [91:37] under my bed I think that these things [91:40] like there are certain types of people [91:42] Stephen that they want to be tied to [91:44] this it's their story and when they meet [91:46] you they're going to tell you about it [91:48] oh do you know I would have been through [91:50] I'm recovering from this I'm surviving [91:51] for this you come across those folks [91:54] because that's their identity it's [91:55] become who they are and they don't know [91:57] how to let it go and it's okay but [92:00] that's for them it's not for me what is [92:03] the what is the harm then of not letting [92:06] go of our trauma and embodying it and [92:10] allowing it to become our identity like [92:12] what does it stop us from doing because [92:15] I'm not a 9911 Survivor I'm [92:17] heavy that's something I experienced one [92:20] day in my life and you're going to tell [92:22] me that one day finds who I am for the [92:25] rest of my [92:26] life [ __ ] no if it does what's the harm [92:30] who's every going to become I'm going to [92:32] be I'm going to be a mess I'm going to [92:33] be afraid to go in a high-rise building [92:35] I'm going to be afraid to get onto a [92:36] plane 3 weeks after 9/11 I got on a [92:39] plane I was like oh no no no no this is [92:42] not kill fear fear while it's still [92:44] small this is not going to become a [92:46] monster I got my ass on a [92:48] plane I was like I I can't na I can't [92:51] control everything in my life but I can [92:52] navigate the out come of my life to some [92:55] degree not all I'm not going to be at [92:58] the mercy of the [92:59] world I I can take ownership to some [93:02] degree Stephen but I have to choose to [93:04] want it not everybody wants it but it's [93:07] also I have to you and I or whoever has [93:10] to have enough intelligence to see that [93:12] when someone is like that just leave [93:14] them they don't want you to fix their [93:16] problems they want to be there let them [93:18] be there however if it's someone you're [93:21] looking to hire or date or hang out with [93:24] now you decide is this someone I want to [93:28] be around because it is not good for me [93:31] those are two different [93:33] things I want to come back to this 911 [93:35] thing but I it reminded me of a [93:36] conversation I had with someone recently [93:37] where they were telling me about all the [93:39] problems in their life and problems they [93:41] were having with a particular job that [93:42] they have and I remember asking them I [93:44] was like did you you chose that job [93:45] right and you can leave and they were so [93:48] offended by the idea that they had a [93:50] choice like and they they eventually [93:52] they admitted to me that they could [93:54] leave and they would be fine because [93:55] they have enough money and that they [93:57] interviewed for that job and went for it [93:59] and they also could leave but they they [94:01] weren't interested in Choice like I [94:03] remember saying to like I've never this [94:04] is a good friend of mine I remember [94:05] saying to them like why don't you want [94:08] power in this situation like why don't [94:12] you want [94:13] to be empowered you you're like I could [94:16] observe in them that they wanted to be [94:18] disempowered they wanted to be powerless [94:21] they wanted to be a victim of [94:22] circumstance they they didn't want to [94:24] have a conversation about choices and [94:26] the decisions they could make they were [94:27] not interested and I Jesus Christ like [94:30] what a way to live what a way to live to [94:33] not want to you know because objectively [94:35] bad things happen to people you know [94:37] traumas they go through things which [94:38] were nothing of their doing they weren't [94:40] to [94:41] blame but it doesn't mean right that we [94:44] can't do something about it there's a [94:46] very two different things like but you [94:47] have to want it some people don't so I [94:50] think what you'll do is you'll be able [94:52] to people come to you in the say Stephen [94:54] I need help or this and that but you'll [94:56] be able to see who genuinely really [94:58] wants to move forward who just wants to [95:00] just tell you about it how do you how [95:03] would you be able to identify the [95:04] difference so people who are they call [95:06] it's called being identity and I Ed this [95:08] word before but more in a clinic not in [95:10] a clinical but more in the the way that [95:12] I've learned it through through training [95:14] and my the research I also have a [95:16] masters forensic Masters in forensic [95:18] psychology when someone is identity um [95:22] they use repeated you'll hear them say i [95:25] i i i a lot you can even see this in an [95:27] email um people who identity tend to be [95:30] highly depressed have a lot of anxiety [95:33] they're very self-focused when they're [95:35] very emotional based so you can spot [95:38] these individuals now look we all visit [95:39] identity land from time to time like I [95:42] may go through [95:43] something difficult and have a moment in [95:46] this identity space but then I'm like [95:48] okay I have to recover but some people [95:50] stay in this space it's like their [95:51] predominant disposition so repeated use [95:55] of I this I that I feel I want I went [95:58] through that's one red flag the other [96:01] thing is they very emotional uh you'll [96:03] see they're linked there's links to [96:05] depression they're typically depressed [96:07] but they stay in the space the other [96:09] thing is people like this who complain a [96:11] lot do you know that when you relive a [96:13] trauma or you complain or you have drama [96:16] like you get those you get those [96:18] cortisol hits you get also adrenal hit [96:20] adrenaline hits you you get F3 it's your [96:22] fight flight freezer response we we Peak [96:26] and some people get addicted to that [96:27] Peak I'm addicted to the trauma I'm [96:30] addicted to feeling that it's like the [96:33] last week I was racing a car I was at [96:34] Porsche and I was racing cars for fun [96:36] and uh when you're in the car you're in [96:38] the present right I'm like sh look [96:40] trying not to hit the cones doing [96:41] whatever I'm there I'm in the moment but [96:43] like my adrenaline's going up I'm [96:45] peeking I've got my f3s on fire and I'm [96:48] but I'm focused it feels I feel [96:51] alive so for some people when they get [96:54] into this state when they relive this [96:56] stuff and they have these spikes or you [96:58] see them very high conflict driven or [97:00] high drama driven they get these spikes [97:03] and it's when they feel in the moment [97:04] they feel alive and that you become [97:06] addicted to it it also becomes a habit I [97:09] was thinking then about the this idea of [97:12] identity and what what identity also [97:14] sometimes seems to give people is it [97:16] gives them a community and it makes [97:17] gives them a sense of belonging and it [97:18] gives them purpose which we're all [97:20] searching for like if I'm a insert [97:23] trauma then I instantly have a community [97:26] of people that you know will make me [97:29] feel like I belong and then that is [97:32] something I don't want to give up if I [97:33] give up my trauma I end up giving up my [97:34] sense of purpose um my my community who [97:37] I belong to the way the world [97:39] understands [97:40] me and uh and that's I guess another [97:43] reason why it can be so sticky like our [97:45] traumas can be so sticky because we we [97:48] we build our whole like our social [97:49] circle around them we go to events about [97:51] it we we're in group little social media [97:53] groups about it but I think today trauma [97:57] has become like a badge of honor now in [97:59] fact you hear people talking and it's [98:00] like a competition about who has more [98:03] trauma that's is it not that who has I [98:07] have more trauma than you no I've had it [98:09] harder than you like it's a comp a [98:11] competition of who's had it the hardest [98:13] and it's it's become like this this [98:16] thing now to that we put on a [98:20] pedestal I think it's just the new way [98:22] to draw attention to our eles and to [98:24] make ourselves relevant it's like ego [98:25] and Status it is ego it is status and [98:28] it's it's interesting the sense of [98:30] belonging in group out group that's a [98:32] whole other psychological thing if I'm [98:34] in a group then I feel like it belong [98:36] somewhere it's like how G I'm taking it [98:37] back to Crime gangs or why people join [98:39] terrorist organizations they join it [98:41] because they want to be part of [98:43] something it's not cuz they're bad [98:44] people I want to feel like I'm part of a [98:46] group and so this makes me feel [98:50] relevant which is fine but to to agree [98:52] you also have to have your [98:53] your sovereignty as a person we want to [98:56] be part of something cuz we don't want [98:57] to be out there and alone out there but [99:00] you don't have to be alone out there but [99:01] we hitch ourselves to these narratives [99:04] and now my identity is I'm a Survivor of [99:06] this I am someone who's experienced this [99:08] it's like no those are things that [99:12] happen to me but they are not who I am [99:15] I'm an evolving thing I called my book [99:17] becoming bulletproof cuz I am always [99:20] becoming I'm becoming more I'm evolving [99:23] we don't [99:24] stop I I don't want to stop I'm never [99:27] going to get to a point where I know [99:29] everything every day I learn something [99:32] what was the most interesting day of [99:34] your career when I say interesting the [99:36] day that you think about and go Jesus [99:37] that was like awesome or that was from a [99:40] movie so I have I can give you a story [99:43] which I don't think I've shared so a [99:46] because I didn't look like an agent I [99:48] would get pulled in for a lot of [99:49] undercover stuff which I loved it was [99:51] fun scary but because I never got pegged [99:54] for an agent like I always felt super [99:56] safe so I did this one thing where it [99:59] was another undercover case where they [100:01] came to me and we were working with NYPD [100:04] it wasn't my case but they wanted me [100:08] there was this organized crime ring I [100:10] think they were [100:11] Albanian and they were [100:14] selling passports original passports and [100:17] bth certificates to [100:20] terrorists this is and so they're [100:23] selling selling it to them to help them [100:24] come into the US and to other other [100:27] people who are Bad actors so we they the [100:31] agencies get wind of this they want to [100:33] get this these these guys this guy [100:35] specifically with this organized crime [100:36] ring they're trying to figure out how to [100:38] get in because they were so good at what [100:39] they did like you couldn't get them so [100:43] they wanted me to go in undercover and [100:45] pretend to be someone who needed [100:48] paperwork so they're trying to figure [100:49] out how do we do it so the the idea we [100:51] came up with was I would be someone who [100:53] had been sex trafficked from an Eastern [100:55] block country cuz I I I can pass for [100:59] it so um I started talking on the phone [101:04] I was introduced him through another [101:05] undercover and talking to him on the [101:07] phone and I had to develop an Eastern [101:10] black accent I need my papers they [101:13] brought me here from you know my country [101:15] uh because when they sex traffic people [101:17] in the first thing they do when they [101:18] lure you in is they'll take your [101:20] paperwork from you and they and you [101:22] can't even get a cell phone here in the [101:24] US without paperwork so they take your [101:26] stuff and then they put you either to do [101:27] sex traffic you know sex work or work in [101:30] strip clubs or a both um until you pay [101:33] off your debt for them bringing to [101:35] America so I pretended to be one of [101:37] those so I you know under that premise I [101:39] have no paperwork so I can't get an [101:41] apartment I can't get anything I'm at [101:43] the mercy of these traffickers which [101:46] until I pay my my dues which you never [101:49] do by the way they keep you locked in [101:51] and then they make them afraid and they [101:52] tell them if if you say anything they're [101:54] going to deport you back which actually [101:56] is not true however so I take on this [101:59] role I start talking to this guy I need [102:02] papers I please they take my papers um H [102:05] much for new papers how did you line [102:08] this accent did you just go I studied [102:10] acting and then plus my parents are [102:11] immigrants I grew up in New York and [102:13] queens so I just picked them up but I [102:15] practice it and uh I had to be good [102:17] because if you're not good you get a [102:18] bullet to the head when you meet this [102:19] guy so you have to live in reality uh [102:22] because my life is also on the line and [102:25] so I have these phone calls with him he [102:27] agrees okay I'll meet with you so my [102:29] first meeting is passport photos I had [102:31] to go get passport photos I go meet him [102:34] and I remember when I met him at his I [102:37] think he did construction was the [102:39] outside uh thing he did we meet him I'm [102:43] me I'm in like dress clothes I'm [102:45] dressing like very as a very young woman [102:47] but I also had to put on sneakers cuz [102:49] I'm like hey if this guy has to do [102:50] something I need to be able to run so I [102:53] meet him I bring my my passport photos I [102:56] go to this location that's a front hi [102:59] I'm here to see I don't remember the [103:00] guy's name they're like oh no he's not [103:02] here you'll have to wait for him so they [103:04] play with me for a little while you know [103:06] everyone's watching me from the outside [103:07] but I have no wire on and we debated [103:09] whether I should have a wire or not or a [103:11] gun and I chose to take nothing so I'm [103:13] I'm I've got nothing with me which makes [103:16] me more vulnerable but my concern was if [103:18] they put me through a metal detector or [103:20] they checked me that would be worse cuz [103:22] now I'm in their home and like they'll [103:23] just off me right off the bat so I'm [103:26] sitting there and I'm waiting he finally [103:28] comes then he tries to lure me into his [103:31] car and uh I had been briefed whatever [103:33] you do you don't get into a car with [103:35] this guy uh so I don't get in the car [103:37] and I'm like no no no no I don't get [103:38] into car he's like no we need to talk [103:40] private now I have eyes on me and I want [103:42] to make sure the agents and everybody [103:43] can see me so there's this back and [103:45] forth where I'm like I please I fre I [103:47] don't want to go into the car his has [103:49] passport phos I give him I think it was [103:51] 5gs I gave him an envelope of 5 grand [103:54] here's the five grand he's like okay [103:56] come back in like 2 weeks and he's like [103:57] maybe you'll get in my car so I come [104:00] back like 2 weeks later same story I [104:02] meet him I get my passports he gave me a [104:05] Polish passport I won't forget it was a [104:07] a real authentic polish passport and and [104:10] a certificate birth certificate and all [104:12] that then I'm like the deal was though I [104:14] needed more transactions with this guy [104:16] cuz the more you get the longer you can [104:18] put them away but he was so good we [104:20] couldn't get anything that we knew he [104:22] had done so I'm like hey I have more [104:24] friends can I send you more girl girls [104:27] I'll bring you more girls so oh yeah so [104:30] then I start bringing him more girls who [104:32] are these girls other Undercovers other [104:35] undercover female agents uh and cops we [104:38] had NYPD play and so we go in and we're [104:40] doing this buying and selling [104:42] transactions transactions till we got [104:44] enough to get the US attorney to say yes [104:47] we got him and then they went in and [104:50] they um they took them down that was [104:53] pretty interesting were you scared at [104:55] any point I was not because I always [104:58] felt safe in that nobody Stephen ever [105:02] thought I was a cop nobody ever thought [105:04] I was an agent I didn't look like one I [105:06] didn't speak like one so I would I felt [105:08] very safe on that point because you [105:11] don't look like an agent I understand [105:13] how that's useful for the for the going [105:15] under cover but it it's it's got to lead [105:18] people to underestimate you in your [105:20] professional career mhm yes and a lot of [105:22] people I've spoken to I was speaking at [105:24] a uh a women's leadership conference [105:27] about a week ago in London and lots of [105:29] the questions from the audience were [105:30] about that subject about being [105:32] underestimated and how to deal with that [105:34] it was a Dei conference so diversity [105:37] Equity inclusion conference lots of [105:39] people that are black lots of people [105:40] that are women lots of people that are [105:41] from different sort of minority groups [105:44] and the com the question came up about [105:46] like being underestimated because of [105:48] your skin color because of your gender [105:49] because of something else how do you [105:52] deal with that [105:54] and um it's something that I thought a [105:56] lot about when I started in business at [105:57] 18 years old as a university Dropout I'm [105:58] going into rooms and I'm dealing with [106:00] men that are all in suits and they're [106:02] triple my age I'm 18 I know they're [106:04] looking at me with my Afro my fake tie [106:06] like my little cheap tie thinking who [106:08] the [ __ ] is this guy like but have you [106:10] have you seen your that underestimation [106:12] of you as a disadvantage or an [106:16] advantage it's how you choose to view it [106:20] I remember once I was in Africa where [106:22] was I batwan [106:23] where I was born you were born in [106:25] batswana yeah [106:26] cabaron yeah I spent a whole month I've [106:29] been to Africa a lot I loved batswana I [106:31] remember I had to close the windows cuz [106:32] at the hotel cuz they said the monkeys [106:34] come in I was like monkeys I thought it [106:37] was cool though I was like no I'll leave [106:38] them open they're like no no you don't [106:39] want the monkeys coming in your room so [106:41] I spent a lot of time with batswana and [106:43] I was there [106:44] with um I I did a trip where I went from [106:47] batswana to Tanzania and I was with [106:50] Barbara excuse me Laura Bush the [106:53] daughter President Bush's daughter she [106:54] was doing some um some work there [106:58] nonprofit work and when I was her it's [107:02] called an assistant detail leader so I [107:04] was kind of like her main person and [107:06] then I had a team under me so I have my [107:09] team and I'm I'm I'm holding a briefing [107:12] I'm in charge and we're in the hotel [107:14] room we're here there to meet before our [107:16] our our trip starts so they sent me [107:18] Agents from different parts of the world [107:20] they come in and the first agent that [107:22] walked in I was myself in the room first [107:24] agent walked in he's like hey oh hey hi [107:26] how are you I'm like oh good how are you [107:27] he said are you with the staff or you an [107:30] intern because if the staff's office is [107:32] down the hall if you want to go to the [107:34] staff's office I'll show you where it [107:37] is you know so I don't I don't show it [107:40] so I keep my face and I said no I'm [107:42] actually agent pomus I'm I'm the one [107:44] who's holding the briefing hi good to [107:46] meet you meaning I'm I'm your supervisor [107:48] for this trip and he's like oh okay hi [107:50] nice to meet you now I could sit there [107:53] and be pissed about this or I can just [107:56] leave [107:58] it sometimes like Stephen like who [108:01] cares like who cares I can't care so [108:05] much there's some things you need to [108:06] care about and some things you don't and [108:08] as you were talking about you know who [108:10] we are when I went to um poly School [108:14] what's poly school I'm sorry polygraph [108:17] school it's where I went to the [108:18] Department of Defense to be trained to [108:19] be an interrogator it was a really [108:21] selective School and it was like the [108:23] who's who of agencies were there and um [108:26] we were all in the classroom and I [108:27] remember I was walking with a colleague [108:29] of mine we'll call him k um Kay and I [108:32] are walking and we're walking back to [108:34] our hotel it's just he and I and he was [108:36] quiet I'm like K what's wrong and he's [108:38] like he's like you know what he's like I [108:40] don't know he's like it's just like the [108:43] group of people and he was an agent he [108:45] was a secret service agent I was like [108:46] he's like did you notice like did you [108:48] take toll of the room I'm like what [108:50] about the room he said you know I'm the [108:53] only black guy in the room and I was [108:55] just like huh and I paused and we had [108:59] been there like maybe a couple of weeks [109:00] already and I'm like I stopped I said I [109:03] had to do the mental like assessment I [109:05] was like yeah K you're right you are and [109:08] he looked at he's like you're the only [109:09] female agent in the room too and I was [109:12] like am I and I [109:15] stopped and did a mental assessment I [109:17] was like yeah you're [109:20] right and it made me sad in that moment [109:22] cuz cuz I'm thinking like look what K's [109:24] thinking about and I hadn't even thought [109:26] about it and what what ended up [109:29] happening is like I I would invite him [109:31] out I'm like hey come out we're going [109:32] with the guys he's like but they don't [109:33] invite me I'm like dude you don't need a [109:35] special invite they don't invite me [109:36] either we just go and because he built [109:39] this narrative in his head cuz he [109:41] thought he thought cuz he was different [109:43] or I was different we weren't wanted [109:46] like makes you show up different doesn't [109:48] it you show up different and I and he [109:50] was such a great guy such a competent [109:52] guy and I would and I would actually sit [109:54] there I'm like K I'm like nobody's [109:56] thinking like that and there was a group [109:58] of guys that were with us that came that [109:59] were Secret Service guys and I was like [110:01] I am telling you these guys are not [110:03] thinking about you're black I'm a woman [110:05] like I don't think they give a [ __ ] and [110:08] he's like I don't know he's like I don't [110:10] want to just show up I'm like I do I [110:12] asked him every day what are we having [110:13] for dinner I don't want to eat alone and [110:16] I would have to go knock on his door and [110:17] I remember it came to a point he's like [110:19] I want them to invite me and I had to go [110:21] to the guys I'm like can you guys do me [110:22] solid can you invite K cuz he thinks I'm [110:25] inviting him and I guess it's not enough [110:27] to have the woman invite you I was like [110:29] can you invite him cuz he feels like you [110:30] guys don't want him and they looked at [110:31] me like what I was like just go knock on [110:33] his door tell him we're having dinner [110:34] tonight but he had set himself up [110:37] mentally in such a space and he lived [110:40] there and I was like man I can't live [110:42] here it's interesting because it begs [110:45] the question sometimes what's doing more [110:48] harm the Discrimination or the belief [110:51] that you're being discriminated ated [110:52] against sometimes it's you know I'm [110:54] black you're a woman um I I often wanted [110:57] this in my early CR you know I had a [110:58] really adverse reaction one day when I [111:00] saw this grant that they did I was 18 19 [111:02] years old had no money and I saw that [111:04] they were doing this grant for young [111:05] black entrepreneurs and there was [111:07] something about it which like just irked [111:09] me I don't know why I've never really [111:10] understood why but I wanted to be [111:14] considered on my merits not my skin [111:16] color so when I saw that they were [111:18] giving out these grants to young black [111:20] kids you would think I'd go amazing give [111:22] me the but in my head I was like I hate [111:24] that I hate that because it's a reminder [111:27] that it's like it's like them thinking [111:29] and I think this is a super complex [111:31] thing right for me it was like they [111:33] think I'm not good enough so they have [111:35] to give me a foot up I know it's deeper [111:36] and it's more systemic but I've always [111:37] tried to stay away from that especially [111:39] when I learned about labeling Theory [111:41] which you see play out in kids in school [111:42] when they get like an F on an exam the [111:45] implicit sort of message to themselves [111:46] is that like I am an f and when you when [111:49] you overlay that with this the thing I [111:51] was reading about called stereotype [111:53] threat where they like remind a woman [111:55] before a math exam they ask her to put [111:57] her like gender on the math exam and [111:58] then she performs worse or they remind a [112:00] black person about their Race by asking [112:02] them to tick a box with their race and [112:04] then those people perform worse on the [112:06] exam because we're reminded of our [112:07] identity and we all of the identity [112:09] stuff that you talked about we then [112:10] perform worse I've always tried to make [112:12] sure that I don't ever believe that my [112:14] race is a is a reason not to show up and [112:19] give everything I am in every situation [112:21] and I I can see how for some people [112:25] anything that someone might discriminate [112:27] you for can also cause harm if you start [112:30] to believe it you start to embody it you [112:31] start to look for it yes and you let it [112:34] become real in your mind this is not to [112:36] say that objectively discrimination and [112:38] Prejudice isn't real I'm I've always [112:40] been well aware that it's real but as [112:42] you said earlier I'm also of the mind [112:44] that it's not my problem in that moment [112:46] to try and change someone yes I and I [112:49] get what you're saying label labeling [112:50] the theory we use it in criminal justice [112:53] too when you label somebody a criminal [112:55] or an offender and you you put that [112:58] label on them they are more likely to [113:00] reoffend again cuz you're just reminding [113:02] me that I'm just a bad person so if [113:04] that's what I am that's what I'm going [113:06] to think like and I will tell you every [113:09] time somebody asks me like what was it [113:11] like being a female special agent I [113:12] always get like a teeny tiny Pang and I [113:15] want to be like how many how many dudes [113:17] do you sit in this chair and ask them I [113:19] was it like being in an being an agent [113:21] why do I get that I was an agent I [113:23] earned it I earned it like everybody I I [113:26] and I also had to perform like everybody [113:29] and it's and it yes it implies like and [113:32] you hear it sometimes or sometimes like [113:33] maybe you'll read like I'll see an [113:35] interview of mine and you'll see token [113:37] higher female you know how however they [113:39] word it like oh she you could tell she [113:41] was a female higher and you just want to [113:42] be like I'm not going to give the finger [113:44] because we're being PG here even though [113:45] we've cursed a few times but I just want [113:47] to flip the bird it's like dude like you [113:49] don't know what I went through to be [113:51] that don't give me a hand handout I want [113:54] an opportunity fine but I'm going to own [113:57] it and even in training they had you [114:00] know and I have talked about this before [114:01] in training like I found out they had [114:02] male standards and female standards for [114:05] performance oh yeah military too there's [114:07] different schools on this so I according [114:10] to this I don't have to run as fast as a [114:13] guy according to to these standards [114:15] according to these standards I don't [114:17] have to do as many pull-ups or push-ups [114:19] I didn't know this when I got hired [114:22] I find out later because some agent in [114:24] training made sure that I knew hey just [114:27] so you know uh you got special treatment [114:29] to get here and I'm thinking what are [114:31] you talking about they're like well the [114:33] standards that we have to meet and that [114:34] you have to meet are not the same [114:36] clearly I'm not happy about this I find [114:39] out I get the mail standards and I'm [114:41] like I felt horrible I remember when [114:44] they told me this I went to my room that [114:45] night and I felt horrible about it and [114:47] I'm [114:47] thinking there's a part of me that's [114:49] like [ __ ] these guys how dare you talk [114:52] to me like that I have just as much a [114:54] right to be here as you and then there's [114:55] other part of me that's like well [114:56] they're right so I was like well I was [114:59] like I'm going to have to perform like [115:00] they do and so I just started Stephen [115:03] like working out like a maniac and I was [115:05] like I don't want to hear anything from [115:06] anybody and I worked out and I worked [115:08] out and I worked out morning and night [115:10] so I was like I'm going to be at their [115:12] level I'm going to score what they score [115:14] but I will also tell you cuz there were [115:16] a couple of girls in my class like maybe [115:17] another one or two I can't [115:20] remember they didn't care they were fine [115:24] with the female [115:26] standards so I've seen both I've seen [115:28] both I'm not judging them I chose my own [115:32] path but I've also seen it where I've [115:34] seen and I can I'm just speaking from [115:36] the female standard standard where a [115:38] woman was okay who is an agent not being [115:41] able to do a pull-up and I'm thinking [115:44] like that's no good [115:49] either it's complex isn't it because [115:51] it's when we have these conversations it [115:52] always sounds like we're saying that [115:54] prejudice and discrimination aren't very [115:55] real things but what we're saying is [115:57] we're like not going to make them our [116:00] problem it's not my identity yeah it's [116:02] your problem if that's part of you [116:03] that's you know and I'm not going to [116:04] commit my very limited energy to fixing [116:07] everybody I meet it's like Jesus Christ [116:08] I've got enough stuff to be thinking [116:09] about then fixing everybody and [116:12] correcting everybody which some people [116:13] fall into the Trap of that they go [116:15] around their Liv trying to fix the world [116:17] and you can't get much done how Tire how [116:19] tiring is that how exhausting is that [116:21] and how mentally draining and how even [116:24] just emotionally like what does that do [116:25] to your soul that you're trying to fix [116:27] who are you fighting I guess that's who [116:29] who are you [116:31] fighting I'm not going to maybe if [116:33] you're Sovereign and here and you know [116:35] you show I feel like you show people I'm [116:37] not I know those things exist I know my [116:39] parents were immigrants my dad like he [116:41] would always pick for Middle Eastern and [116:43] he had a even though he was Greek and he [116:45] had a really heavy accent I saw how [116:47] people treated him even as a man but [116:49] like seeing him like Middle Eastern dark [116:52] tone tone heavy accent like my brother [116:54] and I we'd go through like security at [116:56] the airport he's like we always knew he [116:58] was going to get pulled he's like who's [116:59] going you or me and it would hurt my [117:02] heart to see how he was [117:05] treated but you can't sit and fight [117:07] everybody like I I'm [117:10] not the space you take up in the world [117:12] is just and your time here man it's just [117:14] so [117:15] finite fight who you need to fight if [117:18] you have to fight but like you have a [117:20] choice and I'm just too busy like you I [117:23] have things to do and I can't sit and [117:25] waste my time on every buffoon that [117:28] comes my way that's sinking and seeing [117:30] me through a certain Les lens not my [117:33] problem sometimes it is my problem and [117:36] if it's my performance so like with the [117:39] scenario I gave you before I get that I [117:41] get what they were saying fair enough [117:43] I'm not qualifying at the standards you [117:45] are I'm going to do it but I don't want [117:46] to hear [ __ ] from anybody once I do it [117:49] but even then Stephen I still heard [ __ ] [117:51] and that's when know you're the problem [117:54] I'm not the problem at some point you [117:55] have to be able to like write it off [117:58] it's interesting because the you talked [118:00] you did a little gesture then which was [118:01] kind of it looked like you were making a [118:02] little bubble around yourself and that [118:04] bubble is in the way that I perceived it [118:07] was like I'm going to just protect this [118:09] space here because you thinking about [118:11] the Border agent that like pulls you [118:12] into the back room for four hours which [118:13] happens to me quite a lot for a variety [118:15] of different reasons I was actually an [118:16] article about it like a couple of weeks [118:17] couple of months back that I'd been [118:18] pulled into this like back room that he [118:20] threw airport over and over and over and [118:21] over again [118:22] in the moments when I fight that [118:24] situation I do so much harm to my own [118:26] energy I'm like letting resentment [118:30] in and it's so tempting because it [118:33] objectively probably is Prejudice for [118:35] some kind of like Injustice but I have [118:37] to be conscious as you always talk about [118:38] like of that energy exchange it's it's [118:41] almost impossible to [118:43] like do a one-way transfer of energy [118:46] it's always like a two-way transfer I [118:48] think you can like I feel like it's your [118:50] mental armor like bubble MH like you can [118:53] Bubble Up yourself you can look at [118:55] somebody and be like all right I know [118:56] what I got I don't have time cuz I'm [118:58] busy what do you need to ask me are we [119:00] done okay because I do agree with you [119:03] sometimes if you fight it their [119:05] perception is going to be and I'm [119:05] telling you because I'm former law [119:06] enforcement they're thinking oh why is [119:09] he escalating oh why is he this why does [119:11] he have a problem but from your [119:12] standpoint sure are they picking you for [119:14] a specific reason chances are if it [119:17] keeps happening to you over and over [119:18] again oh yeah there's something there [119:21] and there is something Sy there we're [119:22] not I'm not dismissing that those things [119:24] don't exist but it's also like how much [119:26] energy are you going to put in and I [119:28] guess is the energy you're putting in [119:30] worth the outcome that's [119:32] all becoming bulletproof life lessons [119:36] from a secret service agent the quote on [119:39] the front from Roger ton at the Daily [119:41] Mail is part Memoir part hugely [119:43] entertaining self-help manual for these [119:46] tough times protect yourself read people [119:48] influence situations and live fiercely [119:52] become Bulletproof the paperback edition [119:54] of this book is now available everywhere [119:56] and I think uh anybody that's listened [119:58] to this conversation should have enough [120:00] evidence as to why they need to read [120:01] this book because it's a really really [120:03] accessible important book that's full of [120:06] incredible actionable invite advice that [120:08] we can translate to the boardroom to our [120:10] relationships to our lives more broadly [120:13] to enable us to become who we want to [120:14] become we have a closing tradition on [120:17] this podcast where the last guest leaves [120:19] a question for the next guest not [120:20] knowing who they're going to be leaving [120:21] it for and the question that has been [120:23] left for you inside the Diary of a CEO [120:27] is What about your body Health have you [120:30] struggled with the most and what did you [120:31] do to fix it or improve it after I gave [120:35] birth because it was such a my body went [120:37] through so much [120:38] trauma I had to leave it alone and let [120:41] it heal oh you know what else I did when [120:43] I was pregnant because I worked out my [120:45] whole life the entire time I was [120:47] pregnant I didn't work out so I guess [120:49] listen to your body [120:52] and give it what it needs it'll tell [120:54] you Evie thank you so much you're a huge [120:59] inspiration for so many people for so [121:00] many reasons that I think i' I'd be here [121:02] all day if I went through the entire [121:03] list you're an inspiration because of [121:05] your vulnerability because of the way [121:07] that you articulate wisdom in such [121:09] accessible relatable ways to people and [121:12] really you know you said you don't [121:13] really like the word but unfortunately [121:14] you are a role model to many people for [121:16] many many reasons because your life and [121:19] your career are evidence to all of us [121:24] that we can climb to the top of the [121:25] mountain regardless of all of the [121:28] hurdles and obstacles that are in our [121:30] way and much of that comes down to the [121:32] way that we perceive those obstacles and [121:34] hurdles and and also from speaking to I [121:37] realize that many of those obstacles and [121:39] hurdles that are in our way as we [121:40] journey up that mountain have been [121:42] placed there ourselves by ourselves and [121:45] I think that is an incredibly liberating [121:47] thing your book is a must read for all [121:49] people for both men and women that are [121:51] trying to climb their own personal or [121:52] professional mountain and become more as [121:54] you said at the start of this [121:55] conversation so thank you so much for [121:56] your wisdom thank you for all the work [121:57] you're doing and thank you on behalf of [121:59] all the people you've helped thank you [122:04] Stephen how many of you started thinking [122:07] about your long-term Health when you hit [122:08] 30 for me this was a wakeup moment of me [122:12] thinking to myself okay I probably need [122:13] to start paying a little bit more [122:15] attention now I already felt a change in [122:17] myself when I hit 30 with things like my [122:19] metabolism my energy levels so this year [122:22] is no different Zoe which is a company [122:24] I've invested in but also a company that [122:26] are a sponsor of this podcast helps me [122:28] to make smarter food choices all based [122:31] on their world leading science and my [122:32] own test results if I'm ordering food I [122:35] know how to make my takeaway so much [122:37] smarter by adding things like a side of [122:40] vegetables to eat first or choosing the [122:42] option with the most fiber Zoe helps me [122:44] to make that choice it guides me and [122:46] coaches me it's my personalized [122:48] nutrition coach that I have on me 24/7 [122:50] and to help you start your Zoe journey [122:52] and start making smarter food choices [122:54] I'm giving you guys 10% off when you [122:56] join Zoe now all you've got to do is use [122:59] code ce10 at the checkout when you sign [123:02] up enjoy and let me know how you get on [123:07] [Music] [123:21] a [123:24] [Music]