Ex-Colombo Capo Franzese Details $10 Million Weekly Mob Revenue

The Diary Of A CEO

Michael Franzese built a multimillion-dollar empire by leveraging gasoline tax schemes before serving federal prison time and leaving organized crime through faith.

AI-assisted summary of Mafia Boss: I Was Making $1.4 Million A Day! - Michael Franzese — original source. Check the original for full context.

Source published: 2024-08-19

Detailed notes

## Background This video was published on YouTube by The Diary Of A CEO on August 19, 2024. According to the page description, it features an interview with Michael Franzese, an American former mafia caporegime in the Colombo crime family and best-selling author, discussing his life, business tactics, time in prison, and transition out of organized crime.

## TL;DR Former mob boss Michael Franzese details his rise and eventual departure from the Colombo crime family, sharing how he went from pre-med to generating millions through a massive gas tax scam. He outlines the strict hierarchy, code of omertà, and deadly consequences that defined the American Mafia while reflecting on his father Sonny Franzese's influence and ultimate betrayal. The conversation covers his years in solitary confinement, the financial mechanics of mob money, and how he turned his life around through faith, business acumen, and public speaking.

## Atmosphere & style The interview has a candid, reflective, and intense mood, combining the gravitas of a former high-ranking mobster with the polished delivery of a seasoned speaker. Franzese speaks with a pragmatic, matter-of-fact seriousness when detailing life-and-death mob rules, creating a tense yet fascinating dynamic with host Steven Bartlett. The emotional arc transitions from gritty tales of violence, extortion, and systemic betrayal to a quieter, introspective narrative centered on faith, family reconciliation, and redemption.

## Key takeaways - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=0s) Michael Franzese became one of the Mafia's highest earners by operating as a racketeer rather than a traditional gangster, generating $7 million to $10 million weekly at his peak. - [10:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=635s) The American Mafia structured its organization hierarchically to enforce discipline, manage rackets, and resolve internal disputes through formal sit-downs. - [23:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1410s) Franzese abandoned a pre-med education track to join the mob after his father, Colombo family underboss Sonny Franzese, received a 50-year prison sentence. - [32:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1928s) Strict codes like omertà governed the Mafia, enforcing ultimate loyalty to the mob family above personal bonds and mandating extreme discipline. - [44:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2698s) Franzese masterminded a complex multimillion-dollar gas station tax fraud using series of shell companies to undercut competitors for seven years. - [36:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2175s) Mob inductees were subjected to an intense probationary period requiring unconditional obedience to authority before attaining status as made men. - [48:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2897s) To secure protection and standing in street disputes, Franzese paid acting boss Carmine Persico $2 million per week directly from his fuel profits. - [01:25:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5106s) A secret $33 million Austrian bank account became a central bargaining chip in negotiations with federal prosecutors to reduce his prison sentence. - [01:33:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5580s) Franzese endured 29 months in solitary confinement, relying on faith, audio sermons, and music to maintain mental stability. - [01:41:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6068s) Tensions arose between Franzese and Colombo leadership when his immense wealth and independent crew threatened existing hierarchy dynamics. - [01:44:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6243s) Franzese walked away from organized crime without entering the Witness Protection Program, navigating death contracts and years of estrangement from his father. - [02:02:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7327s) A key conversation with a pastor on his wedding planning day inspired Franzese's religious conversion and eventual transition away from the mob.

## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=0s) Overview & "Who Is Michael Franzese?"

The interview opens with high-stakes declarations outlining the immense scale of Michael Franzese's former life in the mob: pulling in $9 million to $10 million a week, being arrested 18 times, operating 18 different companies to defraud the government out of gas taxes, and witnessing people die for the wrong reasons. Michael reflects on the two distinct paths within Cosa Nostra: "There's two levels in that life: you're either a racketeer or you're a gangster." He identifies firmly as a racketeer—someone who elevated the family by generating massive wealth, flying around in private jets and helicopters, and once seeing $40 million to $50 million in physical cash sitting in front of him.

When host Steven Bartlett asks him directly, "Who are you?", Michael recounts a profound conversation he had with psychologist Jordan Peterson. Michael explained to Peterson that whenever he had to execute an assignment in the mob that made him uncomfortable, he would "step out of himself," complete the task, and then step back in. Peterson challenged him by asking how he knew which persona was the real Michael—the one who stepped out or the one sitting in the room. Michael acknowledges that after nearly 30 years away from that life, he hopes the person he is today is his true self. He reflects on how he was originally a PreMed student on track to become a doctor, but pivoted completely to help his father, Sonny Franzese, who had been handed a 50-year prison sentence.

- **Weekly Mafia Revenues:** $9 million to $10 million generated at his peak. - **Physical Cash On Hand:** $40 million to $50 million seen at one time. - **Legal Troubles:** Arrested 18 times over his career in organized crime. - **Pre-Mob Aspirations:** Enrolled as a PreMed student before dropping out to help his father.

---

[04:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=267s) Growing Up with a Mafia Underboss

Contrary to popular belief that joining the mob always stems from a broken or impoverished background, Michael describes a complex childhood shaped by intense law enforcement pressure. His mother was just 16 years old when he was born, and his home life was turbulent due to his father's high-profile status as a major target of law enforcement. From the time Michael was four or five years old, his father was constantly going to trial or in and out of prison. Agencies parked outside their home in heavy numbers, causing Michael to develop a deep-seated hatred for the police and government early in life.

Despite the heavy surveillance, Michael initially viewed his father's life positively. The men visiting their home were introduced as warm family figures—"Uncle Joe, Uncle this, Uncle that." His father was charismatic, wanted Michael to get an education to stay off the streets, and was a loving husband and parent who rarely used physical discipline at home. However, two distinct childhood memories exposed the violent reality of his father's profession:

1. **The Manhattan Meeting:** While riding into Manhattan where his father oversaw music business interests, his father stopped to meet a man. A heated argument broke out, and Michael watched his father grab the man by the throat and lift him against a wall, leaving the man petrified. 2. **The Carpenter Incident:** A large carpenter named Sal repeatedly failed to finish work on their home, causing Michael's mother to complain. Frustrated by the nagging, his father abruptly punched Sal inside the house, knocking him unconscious, and casually remarked, "Don't blame me, your mother's nagging me too much."

- **Law Enforcement Presence:** 6 or 7 different law enforcement agencies simultaneously parked outside the family home, creating a "parade of vehicles" whenever they left. - **First Memory of Mob War:** Around age 4 (circa 1955), his father had not shaved for days and came home briefly while his right-hand man stood guard on the porch—a consequence of an internal Colombo family war.

---

[10:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=635s) The Hierarchy and Origins of Cosa Nostra

Steven Bartlett presents an organizational chart to clarify how a Mafia family functions, which Michael confirms is accurate. The hierarchy operates from top to bottom through strict tiers of authority, establishing clear operational boundaries between full members and outer associates.

``` +-------------------------------------------------------+ | BOSS | | (Official ruler of the entire family) | +-------------------------------------------------------+ | +----------------+----------------+ | | +-------------------+ +-------------------+ | UNDERBOSS | | CONSIGLIERE | | (Second-in-cmd) | | (Senior Advisor) | +-------------------+ +-------------------+ | +-------------------------------------------------------+ | CAPOREGIMES | | (Capos / Street bosses leading crews) | +-------------------------------------------------------+ | +-------------------------------------------------------+ | SOLDIERS | | (Made men who have taken the formal oath) | +-------------------------------------------------------+ | +-------------------------------------------------------+ | ASSOCIATES | | (Non-initiated affiliates working with crews) | +-------------------------------------------------------+ ```

Michael explains the historical trajectory of Cosa Nostra, tracing its roots to Sicily, where groups originally formed to defend local towns against marauders before evolving into criminal syndicates. Following mass immigration through Ellis Island around the turn of the 20th century, these groups established roots in major American cities, initially preying on fellow immigrants through loan sharking, extortion, and protection rackets.

Michael emphasizes that the U.S. government unwittingly made the Mafia a powerhouse by introducing Prohibition. Banning alcohol created an insatiable public demand that organized crime rushed to fulfill. In New York State alone, the Mafia controlled an estimated 36,000 illegal speakeasies, generating the equivalent of billions of modern dollars. By the 1940s, Charles "Lucky" Luciano—alongside his key non-Italian advisor Meyer Lansky—realized that constant inter-gang warfare would destroy them. To professionalize the underworld, Luciano established "The Commission," dividing national operations into nine original families to govern disputes and set overarching policy.

- **Speakeasy Monopoly:** Over 36,000 illegal drinking establishments controlled by the Mafia in New York State during Prohibition. - **Commission Structure:** Created in the 1940s by Lucky Luciano to act as a national governing body (similar to a "United Nations" for crime families), though individual bosses retained ultimate autonomy over their own crews.

Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of this section of the interview:

[16:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1016s) The Structure of New York's Five Families and Mafia Wars

Michael Franzese outlines the scope of the Five Families operating in New York during his era, explaining that there were approximately 750 total "made men"—individuals who had taken the formal oath—alongside hundreds of associates. The Gambino and Genovese families were the largest, each boasting around 250 made members. The remaining three—the Bonanno, Colombo, and Lucchese families—were smaller, with roughly 100 or so members each.

Before the creation of the Commission in the 1930s, the families frequently waged war against one another. Once the Commission was established, inter-family warfare effectively ceased, and any subsequent conflicts were internal civil wars fought strictly for power and leadership within a single family. Franzese notes that the Colombo family was among the most violent, experiencing three major internal wars during his lifetime. In the Mafia, power transitions do not happen through elections; when someone wants to take over leadership, a power struggle ensues. While other families might offer moral support or root for a specific faction, they did not intervene with manpower.

* **Total Made Men (New York Era):** Approximately 750 members across five families. * **Family Breakdown:** Gambino (~250), Genovese (~250), Bonanno (~100+), Colombo (~100+), Lucchese (~100+). * **The Commission's Impact:** Eliminated inter-family wars; all subsequent conflicts were internal power struggles.

---

[18:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1130s) What Happens at a Mafia Sit-Down?

Franzese explains the strict mechanics of a Mafia "sit-down"—the formal process used to resolve all business disputes and internal grievances. These structured meetings were typically presided over by a boss or higher-ups if the dispute was serious enough to escalate past captains (capos). The boss held absolute authority, and his word was final, with no right to appeal.

Rules of decorum during a sit-down were incredibly rigid. If two made men were arguing over a business matter and one was lying blatantly, the other could not directly call him a liar. Directly calling another made man a liar was considered a fatal protocol violation that resulted in automatically losing the argument due to disrespect. Instead, a member had to cleverly present the facts so the boss would realize the deception on his own. At the conclusion of the sit-down, regardless of the outcome, both parties were required to shake hands and abide by the ruling.

> "If you're a made guy and I'm a made guy and we're arguing over a business issue and you're lying through your teeth, I can't call you a liar. If I call you a liar, I lose the argument automatically because I disrespected you."

* **Business Book Impact:** After reading about sit-downs in Franzese’s business book *I'll Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse*, publisher HarperCollins humorously declared they were banning standard company meetings in favor of "sit-downs" for maximum efficiency. * **Frequency:** Franzese was extremely active in this lifestyle, attending sit-downs almost every other day to resolve business conflicts or settle trouble caused by his subordinates.

---

[20:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1251s) How the Mafia Decides Who Lives and Who Dies

Beyond routine business disputes, sit-downs were also called to decide a member's ultimate fate if they committed a severe policy violation. The individual whose life was on the line was not present in the room; instead, advocates spoke on their behalf while accusers spoke against them before the boss rendered a final judgment on whether the person should live or die. Franzese confirms he participated in sit-downs where life-or-death decisions were made and saw rulings go both ways.

---

[21:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1280s) Franzese’s Dad Sent to Prison and the Shift in Family Responsibility

When Franzese was 19 years old, his father, Underboss John "Sonny" Franzese, began serving a 50-year prison sentence. His father was 50 years old at the time, leading the family to believe he would die behind bars. Franzese speaks with deep emotion about his admiration for his father, recalling the core lesson Sonny instilled in him: to be a careful listener, to listen before speaking, and never to speak out of turn.

Sonny's imprisonment marked a major turning point. As the eldest son, Franzese was charged with the heavy responsibility of caring for his mother and three younger siblings. He was already accustomed to stepping up—often taking care of his siblings for days while his mother attended his father's relocated trials hundreds of miles away in Albany, New York—but his father's 50-year sentence made the burden far more absolute.

* **Sonny Franzese's Sentence:** 50 years in federal prison, starting when Michael was 19. * **Key Advice from Father:** "Son, be a good listener. Listen before you speak... don't speak out of turn."

---

[23:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1410s) Leaving Pre-Med to Save His Framed Father

At the time of his father's incarceration, Franzese was a pre-med student preparing to become a doctor. However, his father's conviction derailed his life plans. Sonny was convicted of masterminding a nationwide string of bank robberies—a charge Franzese insists to this day was a complete frame-up by the federal government.

Franzese recalls visiting his father in jail and asking him directly about the bank robberies. Sonny maintained his innocence, telling his son that he was framed and that they needed to work to overturn the conviction. Franzese trusted his father implicitly, noting that Sonny had spent his entire life preaching against drugs, telling his children allegorical stories about their dangers, and refusing to associate with drug users. Because all four primary government witnesses against Sonny were drug addicts, Franzese knew his father would never have partnered with them to orchestrate bank robberies.

Driven by anger at the justice system and a desire to save his father, Franzese was further influenced by Colombo family boss Joe Colombo, who took Franzese under his wing. Mob associates repeatedly told Franzese that staying in medical school was pointless if his father was going to die in prison.

* **Primary Witnesses:** Four drug addicts whose testimony formed the core of the government's case against Sonny. * **Role of Joe Colombo:** Took Franzese under his wing following Sonny's imprisonment.

---

[25:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1543s) The Decision to Join the Mafia: "Could You Kill Somebody?"

Franzese visited his father at Leavenworth Penitentiary to deliver the news that he was dropping out of pre-med to help him. Sonny initially argued against it, wanting a legitimate life for his children and knowing how brutal the mob was. Realizing his son was firm in his decision, Sonny accepted it but insisted that if Michael were to enter the street life, he must do it "the right way"—by becoming a made member of the Colombo crime family.

Standing in the visiting room, Sonny asked his son a solemn question: if he ever had to kill someone, could he do it? Franzese replied that under the right circumstances, he could. Satisfied with the answer, Sonny instructed him to go home, stay quiet, wait for contact, and follow instructions without question. True to the Mafia's strict code of *omertà*, Sonny refused to detail the inner workings of the life to his son until he was officially brought in. Looking back, Franzese admits he cannot say for certain whether his 19-year-old self truly believed he could kill or was simply giving the answer his father needed to hear.

> "He looked at me and he said, 'If you ever had to kill anybody, could you do it?' And I said, 'Dad, under the right circumstances, yeah, I could do it.' He said, 'That's the right answer.'"

---

[28:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1688s) Uncovering the Frame-Up and Working to Recant Witness Testimony

Franzese joined the Mafia in large part to generate funds for top legal representation and track down the witnesses who testified against his father. Leveraging his business intellect, Franzese worked alongside defense lawyers and successfully located three of the key government witnesses.

Franzese obtained recantations from these three witnesses and subjected them to polygraph tests, proving they had lied during the trial. One witness confessed to Franzese that when they originally agreed to cooperate with the government, they named a man named Tony Polisi as the mastermind behind the bank robberies. However, FBI agents dismissed that name, explicitly telling the witness that implicating Polisi would not grant them significant sentence reductions, but naming a high-profile figure like Sonny Franzese would. The witnesses were supplied with details about Sonny's schedule so they could fabricate a meeting at the Q Motor Inn on a night when Sonny lacked an airtight alibi.

* **Legal Breakthrough:** Successfully located and secured recantations from 3 out of 4 government witnesses. * **Original Named Mastermind:** Tony Polisi. * **Fabricated Meeting Location:** Q Motor Inn.

---

[30:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1834s) "My Dad Was Involved in 35 Murders"

When asked objectively whether his father was a "good guy" or if society was better off with him behind bars, Franzese acknowledges the dark reality of his father's life. While Sonny never confessed specific details to him, FBI intelligence estimated that Sonny Franzese was involved in 30 to 35 murders throughout his career (though he was only ever indicted for one murder, of which he was acquitted).

Despite this, Franzese argues against the justification of a government frame-up. From a legal standpoint, he asserts that law enforcement must never be allowed to break the law or fabricate evidence to convict someone, regardless of their background. Doing so compromises the legal rights of all citizens.

* **Alleged Murder Count:** FBI attributed 30–35 murders to Sonny Franzese. * **Legal Record:** Indicted for 1 murder, resulting in an acquittal.

---

[32:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1928s) The Code of Omertà and the Logic of Mob Violence

Franzese delves into the internal morality and strict rules that governed Mafia life during his era. He clarifies that *omertà* is a code of silence, not an explicit command to lie, steal, or kill indiscriminately. The Mafia maintained strict internal rules designed to preserve order:

1. **Family Respect:** Members were strictly forbidden from pursuing or disrespecting another member's wife, daughter, sister, or girlfriend on pain of death. 2. **Prohibition on Narcotics:** Dealing drugs was punishable by death during his era. 3. **Internal Discipline:** Disrespecting another made guy, lying to leadership, or striking a made member resulted in execution.

Franzese explains how members rationalized the violence: everyone who took the oath fully understood the rules and voluntarily accepted the lethal consequences of breaking them. Members were warned from day one that their best friend might be the person ordered to pull the trigger because loyalty to the organization superseded all personal relationships. Franzese notes that while mob violence was not exclusively confined to internal members, many within the organization justified their actions under the belief that they were primarily enforcing rules among people who had willingly chosen that life.

Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of Part 3 of the transcript.

[34:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2043s) Refusing to Discuss Personal Involvement in Murder

The host pushes on whether Michael Franzese has ever personally had to kill someone, observing that it seems to be the one topic he never opens up about. Franzese bluntly confirms that he refuses to discuss it. When asked why, he explains that while he strives to be as honest as possible due to his Christian faith, murder is simply not something he cares to get into. The host speculates on the reasons behind this reticence—whether it stems from legal exposure, not wanting to shock listeners, or remaining bound by mob codes.

Franzese clarifies that unlike other former made men seen on YouTube who openly detail murders they committed because they received government immunity in exchange for cooperation, he never cooperated to that level. He holds no immunity for any past crimes. He stresses that under U.S. law, merely standing next to someone when a murder takes place makes a person legally liable for that murder. Beyond the legal risks, Franzese emphasizes that murder is inherently "ugly" and not something to brag about. He points out that while soldiers kill in defense of their country and homicides occur every single day, he has no interest in boasting about violence or beating his chest.

- Franzese refuses to discuss personal involvement in murder out of a mix of legal caution and personal distaste. - Unlike other mob whistleblowers on YouTube, Franzese never received government immunity for capital crimes. - Under U.S. law, presence at the scene of a homicide can carry the same legal charges as pulling the trigger.

[36:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2175s) The 2.5-Year Probationary Period and Mob Indoctrination

Franzese details the rigorous process required to join the Colombo crime family after his father proposed him. After his father sent word "downtown," a captain escorted him to meet the newly installed boss—following the assassination and eventual death of former boss Joe Colombo. The boss issued a stark, non-negotiable directive: joining meant being on call 24/7/365 to serve the family above all else. The boss explicitly told him, "if your mother is sick and she's dying, you're at her bedside, we call you to service, you leave your mother, you come and serve us."

Upon agreeing, Franzese entered a strict 2.5-year pledge period where he had to execute any command to prove his worth. He describes a culture governed by absolute authority, strict discipline, and zero tolerance for tardiness. A meeting set for 8:00 AM meant showing up by 7:30 AM; if traffic was expected, recruits were expected to sleep in their car the night before. He recalls an incident where he drove a boss to a meeting and left his post briefly to use the restroom and grab a newspaper; he received a severe reprimand and was "put on the shelf" for two weeks to drive home the lesson.

- **Family Hierarchy Rule:** Membership requires a proposal from an existing member; Franzese was proposed by his father, John "Sonny" Franzese. - **Punctuality standard:** Arrival 30 minutes early was required; being late for any reason was unacceptable. - **Probationary length:** A 2.5-year recruit period of performing menial tasks, driving bosses, and demonstrating absolute obedience. - **The violent reality:** Franzese notes that any active participant in mob life is inevitably tied to its violence: "If anybody tells you differently, they're either not being honest or they weren't a made member."

[41:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2475s) Gangsters vs. Racketeers and the Art of Negotiation

Franzese contrasts the two distinct types of men within the mafia structure: "gangsters" and "racketeers." Out of approximately 115 made men in the Colombo family during his era, only about 20 were true racketeers generating significant revenue to support and elevate the family. Gangsters were muscle—guys without the business acumen to leverage the mob's power for major financial gain, sent out primarily when physical force was required. Racketeers, however, were businessmen who still had to act as gangsters when called upon.

Because his strengths lay on the racketeering side, Franzese frequently found himself managing business disputes at mob sit-downs. He learned high-stakes negotiation techniques from sharp, old-time mobsters who could easily trap an unprepared adversary. He emphasizes that entering a room while secretly being the smartest person there—keeping quiet, throwing out a small bone, and allowing the other party to talk—reveals the opponent's true personality and strategy. Conversely, keeping quiet when you aren't the smartest person keeps others guessing about your thoughts.

- **Colombo Family Stats:** Out of ~115 made members, only ~20 were major financial earners (racketeers). - **Definition of a Gangster:** Muscle deployed for physical tasks, incapable of generating complex business revenue. - **Definition of a Racketeer:** A high-level earner and business strategist who retains the capability for violence when ordered. - **Key Negotiation Strategy:** Remaining quiet to let others reveal their positions, maintaining a clear fallback position before entering any meeting, and speaking last.

[44:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2698s) Masterminding the Multimillion-Dollar Gas Station Scam

Franzese details the massive gasoline tax fraud he operated for seven years, describing it as "probably the biggest scam since the days of prohibition." The scheme exploited a flaw in how gas taxes were collected by wholesale licensees. To execute it, Franzese set up 18 Panamanian shell companies. Panama was chosen specifically because it allowed bearer shares, enabling ownership of the company to transfer simply by handing over physical stock certificates without registering names on public records. These shell entities required no physical real estate—only the paperwork needed to secure wholesale tax licenses and open bank accounts.

Franzese bought gasoline from major oil companies and Middle Eastern barges, then sold it to retail gas stations. Instead of remitting the collected state and federal taxes to the government, the shell companies retained the tax money. Because government tax enforcement operated on slow quarterly filing schedules, Franzese kept each shell company active for 10 to 12 months. Once authorities began inquiring, the office was closed, the license was abandoned, and operations seamlessly shifted to a new Panamanian entity.

To capture market share across his network of over 300 owned, operated, or supplied gas stations, Franzese used the unpaid tax margin—which gave him roughly 40 cents per gallon to maneuver with—to undercut competitors. If competing stations on a corner lowered their prices, Franzese's stations would stay two cents cheaper. Neighboring station owners, unable to match his prices, eventually agreed to purchase their wholesale fuel directly from Franzese's operation.

- **Scale of Operation:** Controlled and supplied over 300 gas stations; ran the operation for 7 straight years. - **Corporate Structure:** Utilized 18 Panamanian shell companies with bearer stock to obscure true ownership. - **Profit Margin Flexibility:** Retaining the tax gave Franzese up to 40 cents per gallon in margin flexibility to price out competition.

[48:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2897s) Bringing $2 Million a Week to the Boss

Recognizing the immense scale of the fuel operation, Franzese approached the acting boss of the Colombo family, Carmine "Junior" Persico. When Franzese promised to show him more money than he had ever seen, Persico was initially skeptical and warned that the family did not deal in illegal drugs. Franzese reassured him that no drugs were involved—only tax money.

Franzese made a strategic deal with Persico: in exchange for generating staggering wealth for the family, Persico had to back Franzese in every street dispute or sit-down with rival families who sought a piece of the payout or refused to pay for fuel shipments. Persico agreed, telling him to "show me." Franzese built the operation up until he was delivering $2 million per week directly to the boss. This massive revenue stream purchased absolute loyalty, guaranteed that Franzese won every sit-down argument, and directly fueled his rapid promotion to the rank of caporegime (captain).

- **Weekly Revenue:** Franzese brought in $2 million per week to acting boss Carmine "Junior" Persico. - **Protection Agreement:** Persico guaranteed Franzese total backing in all inter-family sit-downs and financial disputes. - **Career Advancement:** The unprecedented profits from the gas tax scheme directly led to Franzese being promoted to mob captain.

[49:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2989s) The Scale of the Gas Station Scam

Michael Franzese outlines the massive financial scale of his gasoline bootlegging operations at its peak, describing a lifestyle funded by staggering weekly revenues. Supported by a large crew under his command, Franzese was "living a lifetime in a jet plane" and utilizing helicopters to oversee an enterprise that generated millions. His operation moved roughly half a billion gallons of gasoline every month, taking a cut of 30 to 40 cents per gallon depending on the variable pricing agreed upon at the time.

This volume translated into revenue ranging between $7 million and $10 million in a single week. Podcast host Steven Bartlett reacts with amazement at the figures, lightheartedly joking that he must be in the wrong line of work, though acknowledging that Franzese made the right decision to walk away from it entirely to avoid future temptation.

- **Weekly Revenue:** $7,000,000 to $10,000,000 per week at its peak. - **Volume:** ~500,000,000 gallons of gas distributed per month. - **Profit Margin:** $0.30 to $0.40 profit margin per gallon.

[50:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3030s) Becoming a "Made Man" and the Reopening of the Books

The transition from a two-year probationary associate ("internship") to a full mafia member is known within the American La Cosa Nostra as getting "straightened out." Franzese explains that in 1975, the American Mafia decided to officially reopen "the books"—a nationwide policy freeze that had prevented any new members from being formally inducted for roughly two decades.

During the 25-year closure, families were strictly limited to replacing members only when a made man passed away. When the restriction was lifted in the mid-1970s, it created immediate generational tension. Men in their 40s and 50s who had waited two decades for induction resented younger associates like Franzese who were inducted after serving relatively short probationary periods. Franzese notes that managing this street jealousy from older men was an intense obstacle early in his career.

- **The Freeze:** Mafia membership "books" were closed nationwide for nearly 25 years prior to 1975 for security reasons. - **Replacement Policy:** New inductees were historically allowed only to replace deceased members in a family's ranks. - **Induction Year:** Franzese was formally "straightened out" on Halloween night in 1975.

[52:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3122s) The Halloween Blood Oath Ceremony

Franzese details the exact mechanics of his induction ceremony into the Colombo crime family, which took place on Halloween night in 1975 alongside five other candidates. Candidates were given no prior instructions other than to wear a suit, leaving them to deduce what was about to transpire. The ceremony was strictly reserved for high-ranking leadership; soldiers were barred, while the boss, underboss, consigliere, and caporegimes gathered in a dimly lit room organized in a horseshoe seating layout.

Inductees walked down a central aisle individually to stand before the family boss. The boss sliced Franzese's finger with a knife, allowing blood to drip onto the floor to signify a blood oath. Franzese then cupped his hands to receive a paper image of a Catholic saint, which was set ablaze. As the flame burned out harmlessly in his hands, the boss delivered the traditional binding oath:

> "Tonight, Michael Franzese, you are born again into a new life, into La Cosa Nostra, 'this thing of ours.' Violate what you know about this life, betray your brothers, and you will die and burn in hell like the saint is burning in your hands. Do you accept?"

Franzese accepted. Rather than feeling fear, he felt an overwhelming sense of exhilaration, viewing the moment as the fulfillment of two and a half years of intense work and a way to cement a closer bond with his father, Sonny Franzese.

[53:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3223s) Pure Intentions vs. Street Ambition

Reflecting on his primary motivations for joining the Mob, Franzese insists he never originally aspired to be a wiseguy. Unlike many inner-city youth or gang members who were drawn to the lifestyle by promises of fast cars, money, women, and street power, Franzese grew up comfortable. His family was not wealthy, but they were secure enough to take vacations and never struggled to put food on the table.

His primary motivation was purely protective: he entered the life to help support and secure his father, who was facing decades in federal prison. However, once he committed to the two-year initiation phase, his competitive drive took over. Mentored by senior members, he became deeply immersed in the mechanics of the organization, developing a full understanding of the culture from the inside.

[55:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3318s) Serial Killers vs. Order Followers: The Case of Roy DeMeo

When asked to categorize the personalities within La Cosa Nostra, Franzese distinguishes between those who were simply following organizational orders and psychopaths who derived genuine pleasure from violence. He places himself strictly in the category of someone who followed orders as a business obligation, contrasting his mindset with infamous Gambino crime family hitman Roy DeMeo.

Franzese knew DeMeo personally and describes him as an outright serial killer whose violent tendencies existed independently of organized crime. DeMeo operated out of the Gemini Lounge (often referred to as the Gemini Club), where he and his crew executed targets, dismembered bodies, and systematically disposed of remains. Franzese emphasizes that the Mafia did not create DeMeo's psychopathy; rather, the Mafia merely provided a structure within which a natural serial killer could operate.

- **Roy DeMeo:** Notorious Gambino family crew leader linked to an estimated 70 to 200 homicides. - **The Gemini Method:** Executed victims inside the Gemini Lounge, dismembering bodies to conceal evidence.

[57:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3472s) Human Nature and the Capacity for Damage

Discussing the broader human capacity for violence, Franzese rejects the ideal that humans possess an innate, unshakeable moral compass. He argues that under the right conditions or triggers, virtually anyone is capable of committing extreme violence—whether out of a instinct to defend loved ones or through systematic conditioning.

He draws a direct parallel to military training: an ordinary, gentle person can be drafted, trained to kill by the state, and sent onto a battlefield to execute enemies under the banner of national defense. While society views state-sanctioned warfare as noble and mob violence as criminal, Franzese asserts that the underlying psychological mechanism—the raw human capacity to cause lethal harm—is identical in both contexts.

[59:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3591s) "Arty the Animal" and the Open Coffin

Franzese shares a pivotal, traumatizing memory from his youth that marked his first direct exposure to mob violence. Following his father's imprisonment, a tough Jewish associate known as "Arty the Animal"—a man who acted as a second father to Franzese and cared for his family—was murdered. Franzese was around 19 or 20 years old when he attended the wake.

At the funeral home, Arty's grieving sister pulled a young Franzese aside and insisted he look inside the closed casket, saying:

> "You need to come with me. You need to look at what these animals did to my brother."

When she opened the lid, Franzese saw Arty's severely disfigured, unrecognizable face. The sight deeply shook him, marking the first time he had ever witnessed such brutality inflicted on someone he loved. Although he learned to compartmentalize the experience in order to survive in the mob, the image never truly left him; his wife reveals that even decades later, he frequently fights and reacts violently in his sleep.

[01:03:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3788s) The Brutal Rules of Mafia Sit-Downs and Executions

Franzese reflects on the cold, unforgiving nature of mob justice, where personal relationships offer no immunity against organizational rules. In La Cosa Nostra, if a member makes a fatal mistake or violates mob protocol, it is often their closest friend who is tasked with walking them into a room from which they will never return.

Franzese recounts trying unsuccessfully to save a close friend—a man he considered a brother—who committed a major violation of family rules. A formal sit-down was held, and despite Franzese's intervention, the death sentence was upheld and carried out. He contrasts this with corporate life: in business, betrayals or failures result in losing a job or money, but in the Mafia, the ultimate price is paid in blood.

[01:05:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3920s) The Ghost of a Father: Patricide in the Mob

To demonstrate how absolute and extreme mob rules can be, Franzese shares a chilling story about two brothers who were made men—one in his family, the other in a different family. One afternoon, Franzese drove one of the brothers back to his home in Brooklyn. Upon opening his front door, the man hesitated, peered inside, closed the door, and returned to Franzese's car, stating he could not go inside because no one was home.

When Franzese asked why he couldn't enter his own house alone, the man revealed a dark secret: years earlier, their father had broken mob law by sleeping with another member's wife or daughter. The high command issued a murder contract directly to the man and his brother, forcing them to execute their own father.

> "Anytime I walk in the house if I'm alone, the ghost of my father is in there and haunts me."

The man had been unable to step inside his home alone for over 20 years. Franzese cites this tragedy as proof of why he views the mob lifestyle as fundamentally evil—it systematically destroys every family involved in it.

- **The Violation:** The father engaged in an unauthorized affair with another member's female relative. - **The Execution:** The contract was assigned directly to the target's two sons, who carried out the patricide.

[01:06:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3992s) The Devastation of the Franzese Family

Franzese reflects on how his father's devotion to La Cosa Nostra tore their own immediate family apart over several decades. While Franzese managed to protect his own wife and children from the mob's fallout, his mother, siblings, and father suffered devastating consequences as a direct result of the life.

His father, Sonny Franzese, spent nearly 50 years accumulated across multiple prison sentences away from home. This left Franzese's mother without a husband for 33 consecutive years, causing deep bitterness and hostility between them until her death in 2012. The structural breakdown of the household ripple-effected down to his siblings: his 27-year-old sister died of a drug overdose, and his brother struggled with severe drug addiction for 25 years.

- **Sonny Franzese:** Spent nearly 50 total years behind bars throughout his life. - **Mother's Separation:** Spent 33 years separated from her husband due to his incarcerations before passing away in 2012. - **Sister:** Died at age 27 from a drug overdose. - **Brother:** Battle with drug addiction spanned 25 years.

[01:07:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4024s) The Toll on the Family and Deciding to Leave the Mob

Michael reflects on the tragic toll mob life took on his own family. He recounts having to save his brother's life multiple times due to drug addiction, noting that if his brother hadn't been their father's son, he never would have survived. His younger sister died at just 40 years old after struggling with mental instability, leaving the entire family devastated. His father ultimately served 40 out of a 50-year sentence behind bars, coming out on parole only briefly. Seeing his family's life destroyed brought Michael to a stark realization: "Any lifestyle that does that to a family is a bad life, it's an evil life." He observed that nearly every mob family he knew met a similar tragic fate in one way or another.

The catalyst that spurred his decision to leave was falling in love with a 20-year-old girl—his wife, to whom he has been married for 39 years. Realizing the massive target on his back, he questioned whether it was fair to marry her when he was facing a 14-agency task force dedicated to putting him away forever. Having gone to trial five times, faced seven indictments, and been arrested 18 times, he knew he couldn't escape the law long-term and refused to subject her to a life where he would be imprisoned within two years.

[01:08:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4112s) A Father's Betrayal and the Sit-Down Over Billions

Beyond his love for his wife, Michael reveals that a devastating betrayal by his own father was what truly severed his psychological ties to the Mafia. Had that betrayal not occurred, the powerful hold his father had over him might have kept him in the life forever. The incident occurred when Michael was around 29 or 30 years old, running a massive crew alongside Russian organized crime figures, owning a helicopter and private jet, and earning millions.

A report published in a Long Island newspaper falsely claimed Michael was becoming powerful enough to break away from the Colombo family and start his own, while also alleging he had defrauded the government of $2 billion. Although the numbers were exaggerated, the rumor sparked intense paranoia among street members and high-ranking bosses who suspected Michael of withholding vast sums of money.

Michael was called into a tense room for a sit-down where the boss questioned his loyalty. His father, also a captain in the family, was present in the room prior to Michael's arrival. Michael managed to talk sense into the leadership, passionately pointing out that he was taking all the risk, shielding the rest of the family by keeping his crew separate, and bringing in vast amounts of wealth. Sensing the danger of outshining his masters, he checked his anger, calmed the room down, and ended the meeting over glasses of wine.

[01:11:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4295s) The Cold Reality of Mob Loyalty

The full weight of the betrayal hit Michael during the car ride home with a fellow captain he had known his entire life. When Michael vented about being walked into a trap without a heads-up, the driver bluntly asked: "If it was the other way around, would you have told me?" Michael admitted he wouldn't have. As Michael went to step out of the car, the captain grabbed his arm and delivered a chilling truth: "I am your friend... Your father was in there before you tonight. He didn't help you one bit. He hurt you in there tonight."

Walking toward his car in shock, Michael realized his father had taken the high road to protect his own parole status, leaving his son entirely exposed to the boss's suspicion. Instead of fiercely defending Michael by declaring that his son would never rob the family, his father threw him to the wolves. Recognizing that the life could turn a father against his son made Michael realize how hollow the Mafia's code truly was.

[01:13:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4404s) Empire, Business Lessons, and Mafia Taxes

At the height of his career, Michael ran a vast array of legitimate and illegitimate enterprises. On the legal side, he owned two highly successful auto dealerships—a Mazda dealership and a Chevrolet dealership—alongside a car leasing company, a video rental shop, multiple restaurants, and a film production company that produced roughly 30 horror and exploitation movies. On the street, he had millions deployed in loan sharking, lending money to his own guys who then lent it out at interest.

Michael explains the strict financial rules regarding mob "taxes." Illegitimate street revenue had to be shared up the chain, but legitimate businesses were exempt unless other mob members had directly contributed capital or resources.

- **Illegitimate Revenue:** Strictly taxed by the Mafia hierarchy. - **Legitimate Businesses:** Fully kept by the owner if financed independently (e.g., his car dealerships and film company).

To get his Mazda dealership off the ground when he was broke from legal trials, Michael used aggressive negotiation and leveraged his family name. He convinced an associate at General Electric Credit to grant him a "floor plan"—a line of credit used to purchase inventory from manufacturers—by promising a kickback of a few hundred dollars per car sold, capitalizing on the associate's fascination with the mob lifestyle.

[01:15:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4558s) The Downfall: Gas Scam, Informants, and Taking Responsibility

Everything came crashing down through the notorious gasoline tax scam. Michael had developed the massive scheme alongside his partner—a 6'4", 450-pound man named Larry. While Larry was the brains behind the initial concept, Michael was the strategy and expansion engine who brought in accountants, structured the operations, and insulated the team. After seven or eight conflict-free years together, Larry got caught in an unrelated case and faced lifetime imprisonment unless he turned on Michael.

Despite Larry testifying against him in a prior case (where Michael was acquitted after his legal team dismantled Larry on the stand), Michael refused to let the mob "take care of" Larry. Because Larry's children called him "Uncle Michael" and Michael knew Larry's wife, he chose to fight his former partner in court rather than order a hit—a decision that deeply angered the family leadership.

Reflecting on Larry's turncoat behavior, Michael refuses to play the blame game or harbor bitterness: > "I try not to put the blame on anybody else. Anything that goes wrong, I take responsibility for personally... When you start playing a blame game, all it does is it's a sign of weakness in my view."

Michael defines Larry's weakness simply: he was never built to handle prison time and would crack under pressure. Anticipating this vulnerability years earlier, Michael had deliberately refused his boss's demands to meet Larry. By publicly declaring Larry as a potential liability who shouldn't be introduced to high-level bosses, Michael protected the family structure and strategically blocked the bosses from taking Larry away from him.

[01:20:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4848s) How Hits Were Ordered and Negotiating a Plea Deal

When Larry turned informant, the family bosses offered to execute him immediately so the lucrative gas operation could continue uninterrupted. Michael notes that ordering a murder in the Mafia was remarkably simple and executed without question: the boss signed off on the target, assigned the job to an individual or crew, and expected it to be carried out. Failing to execute an ordered hit—unless genuinely aborted due to strict logistical dead-ends—put the designated hitman in grave danger of being killed themselves.

Ultimately, Michael engineered a strategic plea deal to exit the Mafia lifestyle on his own terms:

- **Charges:** Two counts under a federal racketeering conspiracy (RICO) case rooted in tax fraud. - **Sentence:** A 10-year prison sentence. - **Financial Penalties:** $14.7 million in restitution and $5 million in asset forfeitures (surrendering his private jet, helicopter, and other assets). - **Family Provisions:** Negotiated terms that allowed him to retain enough legitimate wealth so his wife would never have to work while he served his prison term.

Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of the transcript section.

---

[01:22:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4973s) Cash Mountains, Gas Smells, and a Refrigerated Solution

While the gas station operation involved heavy wire transfer activity—especially when dealing with volume sales to legitimate gas station owners—it also generated staggering amounts of physical cash. Responding to host Steven Bartlett’s admission that the most cash he has ever seen at once is roughly $10,000, Michael Franzese reveals that the most cash he ever saw in one place was **$40 million to $50 million** in the early 1980s. Stored in a massive room, the physical volume was immense because gas station proceeds primarily consisted of small bills.

The overwhelming influx of physical cash became a logistical nightmare for Franzese. He routinely brought home stacks of $1 and $5 bills, giving thousands of dollars to his wife to distribute to her brothers and sisters simply because he had no room left to store them. Washing the money presented its own unique hurdles; the cash literally smelled like gasoline. After his wife attempted to deposit a stack of cash and the banker asked why her money smelled like fuel, she refused to go back to the bank for him. Keeping her completely in the dark about his illegal enterprise, Franzese told her it was just a natural byproduct of wholesaling fuel. To solve the odor problem, he purchased a refrigerator and packed the shelves with baking soda alongside the stacks of cash, successfully stripping away the gasoline scent.

- Most cash seen at once: **$40M–$50M** during the early 1980s. - Franzese’s wife was completely unaware of his illegal activity; he framed the cash volume as legitimate fuel wholesaling. - Stored cash in a dedicated refrigerator filled with baking soda to eliminate the smell of gasoline.

---

[01:25:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5106s) The $33 Million Austrian Bank Account and Derailed Plans

Addressing Steven's observation that anyone in that lifestyle would live in fear of prison and hide millions underground, Franzese admits he was resourceful, but his strategic timeline was derailed by bad legal intelligence. In mid-1985, Franzese hired a defense lawyer who had just left the prosecutor's office in the Eastern District of New York (Brooklyn). Expecting an indictment following his partner's turn as a government informant, Franzese asked his lawyer when he would be arrested. The attorney assured him he had until **June 1986**. Operating on the assumption that he had seven to nine months to maneuver physical money and assets, Franzese was caught off guard when he was indicted in **December 1985** with no bail.

Franzese and his partner had previously set up a secret, numbered account at a bank in **Austria** to stash federal gas tax money (calculated at 9 cents per gallon). To remove temptation, they split the account number so that neither man knew the full sequence. By the time his partner flipped, the account held **$33 million**. Franzese reached out to his partner's son, Larry Jr., instructing him to tell his father to hold on to the money and fight the government in court. However, the partner testified against Franzese in a trial prosecuted by Rudy Giuliani. When the jury acquitted Franzese, the frustrated federal prosecutors in Brooklyn threatened to kick the informant out of the witness protection program. In panic, the informant surrendered his half of the account number. When the FBI flew to Austria demanding the $33 million, Austrian bankers refused to hand over a single cent without the complete account number, dismissing the FBI's claims that it was Mafia money. Ultimately, during plea negotiations where prosecutors initially sought a **25-year prison sentence and a $100 million fine**, Franzese’s lawyer advised him to surrender his half of the Austrian account number. Giving up the $33 million allowed his lawyer to negotiate his sentence down to **10 years in prison, a $15 million fine, and a $5 million forfeiture clause**.

- **9 cents per gallon** in federal tax money was funneled directly into the Austrian bank account. - The Austrian bank account contained **$33 million** in a split-number account. - Austrian bankers refused the FBI's demands to seize the funds without the full account number. - Surrendering the account number reduced Franzese's potential sentence from **25 years and $100M fine** down to **10 years, $15M fine, and $5M forfeiture**. - The cooperating informant was allowed to keep **$2.5 million** out of the $33 million by the government.

---

[01:29:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5364s) Stash Locations and the Persistent Whispers of Hidden Fortune

Confirming Steven's hunch, Franzese acknowledges that he did have physical safes buried underground containing cash. These hidden reserves remained untouched right up until his release. Over the years, federal authorities remained convinced that Franzese still had a massive fortune stashed across the globe. The government went so far as to hire an investigator who traveled worldwide tracing potential accounts before writing a book on his search, though he ultimately came up empty-handed.

Even decades later, retired federal agents and former mob associates frequently confront Franzese, insisting, "We know you got it 100%... we're just wondering when you're going to go get it." Franzese brushes off these claims as "silly stuff," noting that he no longer worries about federal surveillance, though he remains mindful that anyone can end up in law enforcement's crosshairs. When asked whether he will ever retrieve or use any leftover hidden funds, Franzese cryptically notes, "If it's there, who knows if I'll ever get to use it again, you know? But we'll have to see."

- Safes filled with cash were physically buried in the ground. - The government hired a dedicated investigator who traveled worldwide trying to locate Franzese's rumored hidden fortune. - Retired agents still regularly press Franzese about his hidden money.

---

[01:32:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5567s) Surviving Prison: Respect, Rules, and 29 Months in Solitary

After a brief promotional announcement for LinkedIn Ads, the conversation shifts to prison survival. Responding to Steven’s confession that going to prison—especially for something he didn't do—is one of his recurring nightmares, Franzese shares the crucial advice his father gave him prior to his incarceration. His father taught him that three simple words would carry him through prison: **"Please," "Thank you," and "Excuse me."** His father explained that inmates who never received respect on the street crave respect while incarcerated; trying to throw weight around—as mob boss John Gotti attempted to do—fails miserably because men serving life sentences have nothing left to lose. By remaining polite, excuse-me courteous, and respectful in line or in the yard, Franzese avoided conflicts entirely.

However, Franzese faced an extreme psychological test when authorities placed him in solitary confinement for **29 months and 7 days**. Sent to "the hole" on a parole violation as retaliation when he refused to take the stand and testify against a friend, Franzese served his time in two separate stints (including an 11-month stretch at one facility before being transferred). He describes solitary confinement as a form of torture that severely damages people emotionally, particularly young inmates. He witnessed grown men break down under the strain, banging their heads against the bars and inflicting horrific physical self-harm just to get transferred out of the hole and sent back to the general prison population or a medical ward.

- Father's key rules for prison survival: Use "Please," "Thank you," and "Excuse me." - Served **29 months and 7 days** in solitary confinement as government retaliation for refusing to testify against a friend. - Completed an **11-month continuous stretch** in solitary at a single facility.

---

[01:36:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5770s) The Psychological Toll, Physical Decay, and Finding Solace in Music

Reflecting on his time in isolation, Franzese admits that talking about solitary confinement feels uncomfortable and almost demeaning, as he never wants to sound like a boasting "tough guy." He credits "the grace of God" for keeping his sanity intact, though he endured excruciatingly long days and nights. The physical toll was severe: his body weight dropped from his normal weight in the 190s down to **166 pounds**. After suffering ptomaine food poisoning multiple times from the prison meals, Franzese refused to eat the regular rations, surviving for long stretches strictly on cereal, bananas, and instant cup soups.

While the physical conditions were basic—a sink, a toilet, and a thin mattress—the true enemy was the sensory isolation itself. Franzese managed to stay grounded through two things: music and faith. Armed with a Sony Walkman, he relied heavily on music to lift him out of his cell emotionally. He recalls a particularly devastating Christmas Eve phone call with his wife and family; hanging up the phone in total despair, he put on his headphones and allowed the music to transport him away from the prison walls. During this same period, he immersed himself in the Bible and began listening to recorded sermons by Pastor Greg Laurie of Harvest Christian Fellowship, embarking on a deep spiritual transformation.

- Weight plummeted from the **190s down to 166 pounds** while in solitary. - Suffered from ptomaine food poisoning multiple times, prompting him to survive solely on cereal, bananas, and cup soup. - Relied on a **Sony Walkman** to cope with emotional distress, notably on a difficult Christmas Eve after speaking with his family. - Began reading the Bible and listening to tapes by Pastor **Greg Laurie**.

[01:38:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5908s) Surviving Solitary Confinement and the Power of Family

Michael Franzese reflects on how critical communication was during his time in prison and solitary confinement. During his isolation, listening to an uplifting morning radio host proved vital for his mental well-being. More than anything, maintaining access to phone calls and visits was paramount. He draws a contrast with his father's era in prison, where a prisoner was allowed only one three-minute phone call and one eight-hour visit per month. That extreme isolation tore his father's family apart—his parents drifted away, and his sister barely knew her dad. Determined not to let that happen to his own marriage, Michael told the authorities that they could restrict anything else, so long as they left his phone calls and family visits intact.

His wife, Camille, stood by him throughout his entire eight-year sentence despite being young and carrying a heavy burden. She was supported by her mother and the congregation at Westwood Hills Christian Church, who rallied around her and their newborn babies. However, the pressure reached a breaking point during a grueling 13-month period when Michael was out on parole. With a contract out on his life and intense government pressure to testify, he violated his parole and was sent back in. Federal agents told Camille that she would never see her husband free again, prompting a complete breakdown that kept her from visiting him for six to seven weeks. Michael admits that had she given up on him during his time in solitary, he would have become deeply bitter and resentful, likely never recovering from the ordeal.

* **Prison Isolation Rules:** Historically, prisoners like Michael's father received only one 3-minute call and one 8-hour visit per month. * **Support System:** Camille's mother and Westwood Hills Christian Church provided the primary support structure for the family while Michael served his time. * **Parole Violation Period:** Michael was free for 13 difficult months before violating parole, during which he faced both an active mob contract and intense federal pressure.

---

[01:41:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6068s) Walking Into the Trap: Indoctrination and the Night of Betrayal

Michael opens up about the deep psychological indoctrination required to survive in the mob. When he walked into a high-stakes meeting where he genuinely believed he might be murdered, it was not an act of heroic courage—it was purely "robotic." He felt so consumed by the life and had witnessed so much violence that his internal reaction was simply, "Well, it's my turn." Despite weak knees and a pounding heart, he forced himself not to show fear. This terrifying moment occurred the night his own father betrayed him, when top family bosses summoned them into a room.

He explains that he and his father were questioned separately by the bosses. Michael suspects the leaders had two potential motives: either to intimidate him because his high-profile crew and staggering wealth threatened their authority, or to manufacture a pretext to kill him and seize his lucrative gas tax operation. Michael had intentionally kept his business separate, never letting the bosses meet his key partners and ensuring his crew operated independently. During his father's separate interrogation, Sonny Franzese failed to defend his son. Rather than standing up for Michael, Sonny simply claimed he "didn't know," an omission that damaged Michael's standing and signaled that he was on his own.

> "When I walked into that room that night, I thought I was going to die and yet I walked into the room... It wasn't heroic, it was robotic. I was so much a part of that life... I said, 'Well, it's my turn.'"

* **Safeguarding the Business:** Michael deliberately isolated his crew and business partners from the mob bosses to protect both his operations and his men. * **Sonny's Failure to Defend:** Sonny Franzese told the bosses "I don't know" when pressed about Michael's activities, effectively throwing his son under the bus. * **Confirmation of Betrayal:** A associate named Jimmy later confirmed to Michael that his father had done nothing to help him in that meeting.

---

[01:44:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6243s) Forgiveness, Motives, and Breaking the Mob Bond

Despite the devastating nature of his father's action, Michael fully forgave him. Looking back through a lens of faith, Michael believes that painful episode was necessary to break the unhealthy bond between them and teach him that he could face death without fear. When Michael finally decided to walk away from the mob, his boss took it as a bitter personal insult, as leaving the lifestyle was strictly forbidden. His father disowned him for several years, assuming Michael would enter the Witness Protection Program and testify against his former associates—something Michael insists he never intended to do.

Host Steve Bartlett presses Michael on how a father who genuinely loved his son could risk letting him walk into a potential execution. Michael reflects on the complex family dynamic, speculating that his father's legendary status in the mob meant everything to him. He also notes that his mother enjoyed the prestige of being the underboss's wife; as Michael grew more prominent and wealthy, shifting the spotlight away from her, subtle envy may have influenced how she spoke about Michael to his father. Ultimately, Michael doubts his father truly believed he was sending him to his death, guessing he may have been trying to "flush him out" or test him.

* **Consequences of Walking Away:** Michael faced an active contract on his life from an enraged boss and was disowned by his father for years. * **Refusal to Cooperate:** Despite leaving the mafia, Michael refused to join the Witness Protection Program or testify against his former colleagues.

---

[01:48:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6504s) Reconnecting at 5:30 AM and the Funeral Decision

After roughly a decade of silence, Sonny reached out to see Michael after realizing his son was not testifying against anyone. Suspicious of a potential setup, Michael refused to meet in public and insisted on seeing his father at Sonny's home. At 5:30 AM—to avoid parole violations on both sides—Michael knocked on the door. Sonny opened it with his arms crossed and immediately said, "If you would have listened to me, you would have been the boss of the Colombo family." Michael replied, "Dad, are you in the Twilight Zone or something? I serve a different Master right now." Once Sonny realized Michael's Christian faith was genuine, the ice broke, leading to a three-hour heart-to-heart where they cleared the air regarding past anger and betrayal.

Addressing online critics who judge him for not attending his father's public funeral, Michael explains his decision was rooted in respect. Knowing the event would be attended by active mob figures and rivals, he wanted to avoid creating a scene, attracting media attention, or risking a violent confrontation. Instead, he paid his respects to his father privately.

> "If you would have listened to me, you would have been the boss of the Colombo family."

* **The 5:30 AM Meeting:** Michael met his father at his home early in the morning to avoid parole officers and ensure his own safety. * **The Reconciling Conversation:** The two spent three hours discussing their past, clearing up years of anger and establishing a peaceful understanding for the rest of Sonny's life.

---

[01:51:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6701s) Untold Mafia Stories and Domestic Struggles

When asked about the kinds of stories he cannot tell on podcasts, Michael illustrates the sheer trauma embedded in mob life with an anecdote about a soldier named Tony. Tony had been around Michael's father and was later assigned to Michael's crew. After making a major mistake by getting involved in an unauthorized drug deal with a high-ranking mobster, a terrified Tony approached Michael at a funeral parlor. Though Michael promised to handle the issue and assured him he wouldn't be executed, Tony was consumed by fear. Shortly after Michael boarded a flight to Florida to oversee a movie production, he received a call informing him that Tony had walked into a phone booth and shot himself in the head rather than face a potential setup.

Shifting to his present-day family life, Michael humorously contrasts his public persona with his role at home. On the street and online, he is viewed as a former high-level mob boss, but inside his own house, he is "just dad." He admits he struggles with feeling taken advantage of by his children, often feeling that despite giving them everything, his efforts go unappreciated—a universal parental frustration that persists despite his extraordinary past.

* **The Fate of Tony:** A veteran soldier under Michael's command committed suicide in a phone booth out of fear of being lured into a room and killed over a bad drug deal. * **Home Dynamics:** Michael jokes that despite his past status, his family treats him like any ordinary father, leading to typical family squabbles over appreciation and boundaries.

[01:54:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6858s) Respect, Disrespect, and What Audiences Really Want to Know

Michael Franzese reflects on his personal sensitivity toward respect and disrespect. He emphasizes that he doesn't ask for much from people—just to be treated right and given basic respect. When he feels disrespected, even over small things like someone failing to return a phone call for two or three days, it bothers him deeply because it is hardwired into his nature from his past life. He notes that his wife often points out how strongly he reacts to things he perceives as disrespectful, something he constantly struggles with in everyday life.

Having worked as a public speaker for nearly 25 years, Franzese discusses what audiences worldwide ask him about. While initial interest is driven by a global fascination with the Mafia—fueled by pop culture, movies, and figures like Al Capone and John Gotti—the audience questions during live Q&As rarely center on mob hit stories. Instead, people ask personal, relational questions about how his wife handled his long prison sentence, how he reconnected with his children, how he adjusted to normal society, and how he navigated his inner struggles. He realizes that audience members are going through their own personal battles and look to his survival as a blueprint for overcoming adversity. Because of the overwhelming volume of messages he receives from people seeking advice, Franzese is launching a dedicated platform and community to provide mentorship and support beyond one-off speeches.

* **Speaker Career Duration:** Nearly 25 years. * **Global Mob Intrigue:** Driven largely by media depictions and classic films like *The Godfather* or stories of Al Capone and John Gotti. * **Q&A Focus:** Audiences consistently prioritize questions regarding family reconciliation, emotional recovery, and adapting after prison over criminal anecdotes. * **Community Platform Launch:** Franzese is launching a structured platform for his team and community to mentor people seeking guidance.

---

[01:58:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7100s) Leadership, Micromanagement, and Business Principles

Steve Bartlett shifts the conversation to business philosophy, highlighting how the frankness of a traditional mob "sit-down" contrasts with modern corporate environments, where hard truths are often buried in endless email chains and corporate politeness. Asking Franzese for timeless business principles, the discussion pivots to management styles and micromanagement. Franzese asserts that effective leaders must avoid micromanagement, framing his core business philosophy: "Do what you do best, delegate the rest, and motivate your team to get the absolute most out of them."

Steve calls over his lead producer, Jack, to ask whether he manages as a micromanager. Jack observes that Steve can be micromanaging in specific areas, but delegates completely in others where proven capability exists. Steve explains his philosophy of trust: trust must be backed by tangible evidence. Because his team has proven their mastery over technical areas like camera production and post-production, he steps back entirely. Franzese agrees, noting that micromanaging strips a leader of time that could be spent on their own primary talents, while also emphasizing that a person's business is almost always a direct reflection of their personal life.

> "Do what I do best, delegate the rest, and then hopefully you have the talent to motivate the people and get the most out of them."

---

[02:02:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7327s) The Lightbulb Moment: A Conversation with Dr. Myron Taylor

Answering the traditional podcast closing question left by the previous guest—asking for a single "aha" lightbulb moment that permanently changed his life—Franzese pinpoints two defining moments: one with his father when he was proposed into the Colombo family, and another with Dr. Myron Taylor, the pastor who performed his wedding ceremony.

Before marrying his wife, Franzese was still actively involved in the mob. Although his wife and mother-in-law were devout Christians, he had not bought into faith because he felt religious people did not truly understand who he was or what he had done. On the day of his wedding planning, Franzese asked his wife to leave the room so he could speak to Dr. Taylor privately. He confessed his rough past and asked if someone who had done so many terrible things could genuinely be forgiven. Dr. Taylor sat with him for roughly 30 minutes, showing profound empathy and filling him with hope that he could turn his life around. That single 30-minute conversation planted the seeds for his eventual conversion to Christianity and his permanent exit from organized crime.

* **Key Figure:** Dr. Myron Taylor, pastor. * **Duration:** A conversation lasting no more than 30 minutes. * **Impact:** Provided the spiritual foundation and hope that led Franzese to leave the mob and embrace faith.

---

[02:04:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7481s) Closing Message: Transformation, Seasons of Life, and Final Remarks

In his closing message, Michael Franzese delivers a message of hope, stressing that no individual is permanently defined or defeated by their past. He explains that knowing his story inspires others to change their lives is what motivates him to keep sharing it, rather than seeking fame or money. Steve reflects on the conversation, noting that human lives move in seasons and that people possess the agency to change their path, refine their values, and evolve, regardless of their history.

Steve praises Franzese's honesty and mentions his book, *Mafia Democracy*, noting the irony that former New York Mayor and federal prosecutor Rudy Giuliani—who was once Franzese's main enemy attempting to lock him up for 100 years—wrote the foreword. The episode concludes with mutual expressions of respect and appreciation between host and guest.

> "You're not defined by your past all the time, and you can make changes in your life."

## Notable quotes > [18:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1130s) If you're a made guy and I'm a made guy and we're arguing over a business issue and you're lying through your teeth, I can't call you a liar. If I call you a liar, I lose the argument automatically because I disrespected you. — Michael Franzese

> [25:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1543s) If you ever had to kill anybody, could you do it? And I said, 'Dad, under the right circumstances, yeah, I could do it.' He said, 'That's the right answer.' — Michael Franzese

> [01:29:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5364s) We know you got it 100%... we're just wondering when you're going to go get it. — Retired federal agents / former mob associates

> [01:29:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5364s) If it's there, who knows if I'll ever get to use it again, you know? But we'll have to see. — Michael Franzese

> [01:32:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5567s) Please — Sonny Franzese

> [01:32:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5567s) Thank you — Sonny Franzese

> [01:32:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5567s) Excuse me — Sonny Franzese

> [01:41:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6068s) Well, it's my turn. — Michael Franzese

> [01:41:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6068s) When I walked into that room that night, I thought I was going to die and yet I walked into the room... It wasn't heroic, it was robotic. I was so much a part of that life... I said, 'Well, it's my turn.' — Michael Franzese

> [01:48:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6504s) If you would have listened to me, you would have been the boss of the Colombo family. — Sonny Franzese

> [01:58:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7100s) Do what I do best, delegate the rest, and then hopefully you have the talent to motivate the people and get the most out of them. — Michael Franzese

> [02:04:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7481s) You're not defined by your past all the time, and you can make changes in your life. — Michael Franzese

## Mentioned Michael Franzese, The Diary Of A CEO, Steven Bartlett, Blood Covenant, I'll Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse, Jordan Peterson, Sonny Franzese, Cosa Nostra, Ellis Island, Charles Lucky Luciano, Meyer Lansky, The Commission, Gambino, Genovese, Bonanno, Colombo, Lucchese, HarperCollins, Joe Colombo, Leavenworth Penitentiary, Tony Polisi, Q Motor Inn, Carmine Junior Persico, Camille Franzese, Larry Jr., Rudy Giuliani, John Gotti, Greg Laurie, FBI, Westwood Hills Christian Church, LinkedIn Ads, Sony Walkman, Austria, Brooklyn, Witness Protection Program, Tony, Al Capone, Jack, Dr. Myron Taylor, Mafia Democracy, Colombo family

[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A)

中文简报

前柯隆博家族头目Franzese详述黑手党每周千万美元收入 Michael Franzese通过操纵汽油税骗局建立了数百万美元的帝国，随后在联邦监狱服刑，并依靠信仰脱离了有组织犯罪。前黑帮头目Michael Franzese详细讲述了他在柯隆博犯罪家族中的崛起及最终脱离的过程，分享了他如何从一名医学预科生转变为通过大规模汽油税骗局赚取数百万美元的罪犯。他概述了界定美国黑手党的严密等级制度、缄默法则（omertà）及其致命后果，并反思了父亲Sonny Franzese的影响与最终背叛。对话还涉及他在单独监禁中度过的岁月、黑帮资金的财务运作机制，以及他如何凭借信仰、商业头脑和公开演讲改变人生。前科伦坡黑手党家族头目迈克尔·弗兰泽斯（Michael Franzese）分享了他从医学预科生转变为黑手党顶级敛财者的经历，在其巅峰时期，他作为谋财者每周可产生700万至1000万美元的巨额收入。 (0:00) 在其父亲、科伦坡家族二老板桑尼·弗兰泽斯被判处50年监禁后，弗兰泽斯放弃了学业加入黑帮，并经过严苛考察于1975年万圣节正式举行宣誓仪式成为“正式成员（Made Man）”。 (21:20) 弗兰泽斯利用18家巴拿马空壳公司策划了一套复杂的汽油税欺诈骗局，持续运作长达七年，每月分销约5亿加仑汽油并通过留存税款击垮竞争对手。 (44:58) 为了在街头纠纷中获得绝对保护和话语权，弗兰泽斯每周将200万美元的燃油利润直接上交给代理老板卡迈恩·佩尔西科（Carmine Persico）。 (48:17)

Reading summary

Former Colombo crime family caporegime Michael Franzese argues that the Mafia's internal codes of honor and loyalty ultimately mask an inherently destructive system governed by paranoia and self-preservation. Entering organized crime to protect his framed father, Franzese amassed millions through high-level racketeering before a paternal betrayal and marriage led him to orchestrate an unprecedented exit from the life. Entering Cosa Nostra and the Blood Oath (52:02) Franzese abandoned his pre-med studies after his father, Colombo underboss John "Sonny" Franzese, received a 50-year federal prison sentence for bank robbery—a conviction Michael maintains was orchestrated through fabricated testimony from drug-addicted witnesses. Seeking to generate funds for legal appeals and track down recantations, Franzese agreed to join the syndicate. When his father asked whether he could kill under the right circumstances, Franzese assented, entering a two-and-a-half-year probationary period defined by rigid discipline and unquestioned obedience. On Halloween night in 1975, when the nationwide membership freeze was lifted, Franzese was formally inducted as a "made man." The ceremony required cutting his finger to spill blood and holding a burning saint's card while taking an oath to burn in hell if he ever betrayed the organization. Though inductees were promised a brotherhood, Franzese noted that the life required putting the syndicate above immediate family, demanding total availability even if one's own parent lay dying. Racketeering Scale and the Gasoline Scheme (44:58) Franzese distinguishes between "gangsters," who function merely as physical muscle, and "racketeers," who possess the business acumen to generate substantial capital. Operating within the Colombo family's ~115 made members, Franzese stood out as one of roughly 20 key earners. His primary enterprise involved masterminding a wholesale gasoline tax fraud for seven years, which he described as one of the largest financial schemes since Prohibition. By routing fuel purchases and sales through 18 Panamanian shell companies utilizing bearer shares, Franzese captured state and federal taxes without remitting them to the government. Before tax authorities caught up with quarterly filings, each shell entity was dissolved and replaced. At its peak, the enterprise distributed roughly 500 million gallons of fuel monthly, netting a margin of 30 to 40 cents per gallon. This yielded Franzese between $7 million and $10 million per week, producing mountains of physical cash that required refrigeration with baking soda to neutralize the scent of gasoline. Dispute Mechanics and the Brutality of Sit-Downs (18:50) Internal disputes and behavioral infractions were mediated through highly structured "sit-downs" presided over by bosses whose verdicts were absolute. Decorums were rigid: accusing another made man directly of lying was considered a fatal protocol violation that forfeited the argument. Instead, members had to guide the presiding boss toward the truth through diplomatic presentation of facts. At the conclusion of a sit-down, disputants were required to shake hands and abide by the ruling without appeal. The same process dictated life-or-death decisions. Accused individuals were excluded from rooms where designated advocates and accusers argued their cases. Franzese observed that mob justice frequently tasked a target's closest associate with leading them into an execution to maintain compliance. He highlighted how organizational demands superseded natural bonds, recalling two made brothers compelled by family leadership to carry out a hit on their own father after he violated syndicate rules with another member's relative. Paternal Betrayal, Legal Settlements, and Redemption (68:32) The psychological turning point for Franzese came when Long Island news reports alleged he had defrauded $2 billion and was forming a breakaway family. Summoned to a hostile sit-down, Franzese discovered that his father, who had been in the room earlier, offered no defense and left his son exposed to suspicion to safeguard his own parole status. Recognizing that syndicate dynamics pitted fathers against sons shattered Franzese's loyalty to the organization. Motivated by his marriage to Camille and a transformative conversation with pastor Dr. Myron Taylor, Franzese engineered a legal resolution rather than turning government informant or assassinating his rogue business partner. In 1985, he pleaded guilty to federal racketeering conspiracy charges, accepting a 10-year prison term, $14.7 million in restitution, and $5 million in asset forfeitures. Franzese endured severe weight loss and isolation in solitary confinement, drawing resilience from Christian faith and music before reconciling with his father decades later. Franzese presents his survival and subsequent public career as evidence that individuals can escape deeply ingrained criminal conditioning. However, lingering questions persist regarding hidden assets—such as an inaccessible $33 million Austrian account and buried cash safes—which federal investigators and former associates continue to speculate about despite Franzese's insistence that his ties to his previous life are entirely severed.

精炼阅读摘要

前纽约黑手党科隆博（Colombo）家族头目 Michael Franzese 在访谈中详述了他从医学院预科生演变为周入数百万美元黑帮“操盘手”（Racketeer）的历程；他强调黑手党绝非影视中浪漫化的兄弟会，其内部以利益和偏执为导向的法则终将走向背叛，并对涉足其中的家庭带来毁灭性代价。救父初衷与宣誓入会：从医学生到黑帮 (23:30) Franzese 透露，他最初在大学攻读医科预科，原本前途光明，但其父亲——科隆博家族二头目（Underboss）John "Sonny" Franzese 在50岁时因涉嫌策划全国连环银行抢劫案被重判50年监禁。Franzese 坚信其父遭到联邦政府构陷，因控方4名核心证人全为吸毒人员，与其父生前严禁涉毒的信条严重背离。为了筹措顶级律师费并为父亲翻案，他在教父 Joe Colombo 的影响下辍学投身街头，并凭借调查在审后成功获取了其中3名证人的翻供，证明检方存在串供作伪。其父得知儿子决意入道后，要求他必须通过正式途径引荐加入家族，并当面确认他是否具备在特定情境下杀人的心理准备。在经历长达两年半的严苛见习考验期后，正逢全美黑手党打破长达约25年的新成员冻结令，Franzese 于1975年万圣节之夜正式接受鲜血誓约成为正式成员（Made Man）。在闭门仪式上，家族首领用刀划破他的手指滴血，并点燃他手中的圣徒画像，要求他宣誓将家族置于包括生母在内的所有亲人之上。Franzese 坦言，那一刻他并未感到恐惧，反而因通过考验以及得以拉近与狱中父亲的纽带而倍感振奋。操盘手与汽油税骗局：构建暴利商业帝国 (44:58) Franzese 将黑帮成员划分为纯粹充当武力肌肉的“歹徒”（Gangsters）与善于利用组织威慑获取暴利的“操盘手”（Racketeers）。在当时科隆博家族约115名正式成员中，仅有约20人是具备大规模造血能力的操盘手。Franzese 的核心财源是持续近七年的汽油消费税诈骗案：他利用巴拿马允许不记名股票转让的法律漏洞设立了18家空壳公司，在无须实体地产的情况下取得批发牌照，每月分销约5亿加仑汽油并截留州税与联邦税，在业务顶峰期单周非法收入高达700万至1000万美元，每加仑净赚30至40美分。巨额非法利润带来了极端的现金管理难题。Franzese 回忆自己曾亲眼见过集中存放的4000万至5000万美元现金；由于加油站回笼的多为带有浓重汽油味的小额钞票，他甚至购置冰箱并铺满小苏打以去除异味。此外，他还与合伙人在奥地利设立了按密码分割的匿名账户，内存3300万美元税款。Franzese 指出，黑道高层调解争议的谈判（Sit-Down）规则极度严苛，明面上严禁直接指责同行说谎，精明的操盘手必须保持缄默、通过摆事实诱导首领得出结论，以此在凶险的利益博弈中取胜。严苛家法、沉默法则与家庭系统性毁灭 (32:08) Franzese 解释称，黑手党的“沉默法则”（Omertà）是维持内部秩序与纪律的封口令，组织内严禁未经许可涉毒、严禁侵犯其他成员的直系女眷，任何欺瞒或冒犯高层的行为均会导致死刑。帮派成员在入会宣誓时便知晓并接纳了这套规则的致命后果，组织甚至会刻意指派违规者最亲密的朋友担任行刑者。Franzese 列举了令人发指的真实惨剧：两名已入会的亲兄弟曾因父亲违规与他人亲属私通，被迫执行家族契约亲手枪杀生父，导致其中一人在此后二十余年间因心理梦魇无法独自步入家门；而他手下一名资深士兵 Tony 也因恐惧违规涉毒遭到处决，最终在公用电话亭自戕身亡。在个人生活层面，Franzese 直言黑道生涯摧毁了他的原生家庭。其父 Sonny 累计服刑近50年，导致其母亲在怨恨中度过了与丈夫分居的33年；其妹妹在27岁时死于药物过量，其兄弟也长期与毒瘾抗争达25年。Franzese 总结称，任何给亲人带来如此深重创伤的生活方式，其本质都纯属邪恶，几乎所有黑帮家庭最终都难逃支离破碎的结局。父亲背叛、认罪协议与彻底脱离黑道 (68:32) 促使 Franzese 彻底斩断黑道心理契约的关键，是一次来自父亲的致命背叛。在当地媒体虚报其诈骗20亿美元并图谋分裂家族后，高层首领发起闭门审查。作为家族同僚的父亲 Sonny 为维护自身假释地位，在审查中未发一言为儿子澄清，任由 Franzese 独自面临潜在的暗杀清洗风险。此后，其商业合伙人 Larry 因他案被捕并转为污点证人，家族高层提议将 Larry 灭口以保住汽油税业务，但 Franzese 顾念家庭旧情拒绝下达暗杀令，选择通过司法途径抗辩，并在联邦敲诈勒索犯罪法案（RICO）指控下达成认罪协议：获刑10年，被罚没私人飞机、直升机等财产并支付1470万美元赔偿金及500万美元罚没款。在严酷的单独监禁期间，Franzese 体重从190多磅锐减至166磅，靠听音乐和研读《圣经》抵御精神崩溃。早在入狱前，牧师 Dr. Myron Taylor 与他进行的30分钟深谈便播下了信仰与宽恕的种子，促使他决心脱离黑道。尽管离开组织引来了追杀令并遭到父亲数年断绝关系，Franzese 始终拒绝成为指控旧部的联邦污点证人。出狱多年后，父子二人在清晨5点秘密会面并最终和解。Franzese 强调，人不应被自己的过往永久定义，重塑价值观并开启新生永远可行。该访谈通过 Michael Franzese 的个人视角，还原了20世纪后期美国黑手党上层建筑的运作现实与资本吸金机制。本记录的局限在于，由于 Franzese 并未通过与政府全面合作换取豁免权，出于法律责任与个人信仰，他坚决回避讨论自己是否曾亲身涉入命案，对其可能遗留的地下资产也保持模糊态度。尽管如此，其证词以无可辩驳的代价揭示了黑道体制的虚伪，为理解有组织犯罪的内在心理与脱离路径提供了珍贵的一手记录。

Detailed notes — zh

## Background 该视频由 YouTube 频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2024 年 8 月 19 日发布。节目访谈了前纽约科隆博（Colombo）犯罪家族的重要头目（Caporegime）、畅销书作者迈克尔·弗兰泽斯（Michael Franzese），深入揭秘黑手党的内部运作、权力斗争与他的人生救赎之路。 ## TL;DR 迈克尔·弗兰泽斯详细回顾了自己从一名医预科学生，因拯救被判重刑的父亲而踏入黑道，并最终成长为每周洗钱进账上千万美元的黑手党核心头目的传奇历程。他深度拆解了黑帮森严的层级规矩、终极仲裁机制（Sit-down）以及利用巴拿马空壳公司操盘的庞大汽油税诈骗案，同时也揭开了黑道内部背叛、嗜血清洗与亲父反目的残酷真相。经历联邦漫长的司法追剿与长达29个月的单独禁闭后，他在信仰与妻子的感召下决意金盆洗手，成功转型为畅销书作家与商业演说家，向世人阐释走出黑暗、重构自我的人生智慧。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在深沉、冷峻与真诚反思的基调中徐徐展开，史蒂芬·巴特利特克制而敏锐的追问与弗兰泽斯洗尽铅华后的坦率形成了极具张力的互动。弗兰泽斯用平静甚至近乎解剖学般的口吻讲述着昔日的血雨腥风与致命背刺，这种不动声色的克制反而让观众感受到巨大的心理压迫感与历史厚重感。随着话题转向漫长的铁窗禁闭、信仰救赎与家庭和解，整体氛围逐渐从冰冷残酷的江湖阴谋演化为充满哲思与温情的精神洗礼，令人屏息且深受震撼。 ## Bulletin - [44:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2698s) 前科隆博犯罪家族角头迈克尔·弗兰泽斯透露，他在全盛时期利用 18 家巴拿马空壳公司和 350 余家加油站操盘汽油免税诈骗，每月倒卖 5 亿加仑汽油，每周非法净进账高达 700 万至 1000 万美元。 - [44:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2698s) 弗兰泽斯通过每周向家族首脑上缴 200 万美元巨额现金，换取了在黑手党所有“坐谈仲裁”（Sit-downs）中的无条件裁决保护，揭示了黑道秩序本质上完全被暴利所主导。 - [01:34:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5693s) 因为在重大案件中拒绝转为污点证人出庭指证友人，弗兰泽斯被官方以违反假释为由关入单独禁闭室长达 29 个月零 7 天，依靠随身听、圣经与宗教广播熬过精神崩溃边缘。 - [01:08:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4112s) 真正促使弗兰泽斯退出黑帮的并非法律围剿，而是在被高层闭门审讯时遭遇亲生父亲索尼·弗兰泽斯的冷漠推诿与实质背叛，让他看透黑道对骨肉亲情的终极扭曲。 ## Key takeaways - [40:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2418s) 黑手党成员内部存在两极分化：极少数具备复杂商业变现能力的“敛财者”（Racketeers）支撑着整个家族的运转，而绝大部分成员是仅能执行暴力指令的纯粹“打手”（Gangsters）。 - [18:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1130s) 黑手党的“谈判坐谈”（Sit-down）是高效的单向裁决系统：老大拥有不容上诉的终审权，且参与者绝对禁止当面直斥对方为“骗子”，违者在程序上直接被判负。 - [21:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1280s) 弗兰泽斯原本立志学医，因坚信身为黑道二当家的父亲遭 FBI 串通毒瘾证人栽赃 50 年银行劫案重刑，毅然退学步入黑道赚取巨资与人脉以营救父亲。 - [32:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1928s) 黑手党建立在极其森严且残酷的戒律上：侵犯同伙女眷、触碰毒品或背叛同门均属死罪，而执行处决任务的往往是受害者身边最信任的挚友或骨肉至亲。 - [43:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2595s) 商业谈判的核心心法在于克制表达与倾听后发：即便作为全场最聪明的人也绝不轻易显露，诱导对手多说以暴露破绽，同时永远做最后一个亮出底牌的人。 - [01:13:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4404s) 黑道与正规商业的抽成规则存在严格边界：未经家族出资或提供资源的合法生意（如车行、电影制作）收益全归个人，仅有灰色及非法勾当才须向上进贡分成。 - [01:15:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4558s) 针对合伙人拉里的变节反水，弗兰泽斯坚决拒绝了手下除掉证人灭口的提议，并践行“凡事从自身识人失误找原因，绝不扮演受害者推诿他人”的处事哲学。 - [01:26:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5218s) 弗兰泽斯与合伙人曾将 3300 万美元赃款存入高保密奥地利银行并各自保管一半账号密码，该死锁机制甚至成功挡住了亲赴海外试图提款的 FBI 探员。 - [01:32:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5567s) 父亲传授的监狱生存法则是以礼待人而非诉诸武力：在狱中频繁使用“请”、“谢谢”与“劳驾”，避免无谓的街头傲慢，是防范亡命之徒暴力冲突的终极护身符。 - [02:00:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7245s) 弗兰泽斯在管理上坚决反对微观管理，主张“做自己最擅长的事，将剩余事务彻底授权”，并强调个人现实生活的秩序是企业长期稳定的基石与镜像。 - [02:02:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7328s) 与泰勒牧师的婚前深谈成为弗兰泽斯灵魂救赎的分水岭，打破了他认为自身罪孽不可饶恕的心理防线，确立了人生不应被过去的污点与罪行永远定义的信念。 - [02:06:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7576s) 曾全力追诉并试图将弗兰泽斯判处百年监禁的昔日死敌、前联邦检察官鲁迪·朱利安尼最终为其著作作序，象征着法治对抗与人生宿命的和解。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=0s) 暴利、规则与背叛：黑手党生涯前瞻 Michael Franzese 曾是纽约五大家族之一——科隆博（Colombo）犯罪家族的重要头目（Caporegime），也是黑手党历史上赚钱最多的成员之一。在对话伊始，他直言不讳地揭开了那个隐秘世界的残酷与暴利：“在黑手党里只有两个层次：你要么是一个敲诈吸血的敛财者（Racketeer），要么是一个纯粹的打手暴徒（Gangster）。”Franzese 属于前者。他通过名下掌控的 18 家空壳公司，利用精密的汽油税务诈骗手段大规模洗钱，每周掠取 900 万至 1000 万美元的不法收入，出门乘私人飞机与直升机代步，个人亲眼见过的现金堆叠高达四五千万美元。尽管生涯中曾被捕多达 18 次，但他凭借冷酷而高效的商业头脑屡屡化险为夷。然而，巨大的财富并不能免除黑手党内部铁律的制裁。背叛家族规则的代价就是死亡——有人甚至被逼到亲手杀害自己的亲生父亲；与他私交极深的一位挚友，仅仅因为违反了一条组织规矩，便落得惨遭暗杀的下场。最令他痛彻心扉的，莫过于在黑手党内位高权重的亲生父亲最终也选择背叛了他。在认清黑道生涯不可逆转的毁灭本性后，Franzese 决定脱离组织，走上一条极少有人能活着走通的退出之路。 - **组织敛财规模**：全盛时期每周非法进账 900 万至 1000 万美元，名下设立 18 家公司从事税务欺诈。 - **黑道行事法则**：组织纪律绝对不容侵犯，越界的同伙甚至家人都会面临极刑处决。 --- ### [02:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=146s) 两个迈克尔：分裂的自我与入行的转折当主持人 Steve Bartlett 抛出第一个核心问题“迈克尔，你曾经究竟是谁？”时，Franzese 坦言这个问题触动了他内心深处的叩问。他回忆起著名心理学家乔丹·彼得森（Jordan Peterson）曾对他提出过几乎相同的质问：在长达 20 年的黑手党生涯中，不可避免要做大量见不得光的恶事，一个人到底如何承受这种心理负担？Franzese 当时回答，每当必须去执行那些让自己极其抗拒或残忍的任务时，他会选择“脱离自己的躯体”（stepped out of myself），将真实的自我抽离，以冰冷无情的机械状态把事情“处理干净”，然后再回到自我中。彼得森随即反问：“那你怎么知道哪一个才是真正的迈克尔？是那个脱离躯体去杀伐决断的人，还是现在坐在我面前的这个人？”如今脱离黑道近 30 年的 Franzese 只能寄希望于，现在的自己才是真正的他。 Franzese 原本的人生轨迹与黑道毫无交集。他早年是一名优秀且规矩的医预科（Premed）学生，立志成为一名医生。然而，命运的转折点在他父亲被判处 50 年联邦重刑时到来。父子二人当时坚信那是冤狱，为了在街头搜集资源、筹措资金并运用江湖手段推翻父亲的判决，深爱父亲的 Franzese 毅然放弃了学业，一步步迈入江湖。令他始料未及的是，凭借过人的头脑与适应力，他不仅在黑道中迅速立足，而且混得如鱼得水。 --- ### [04:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=267s) 警车包围的童年与敌视法则外界常常预设加入黑手党的人必定出身于破碎、贫困或虐待性的家庭，但 Franzese 的童年经历更为错综复杂。他的母亲在 16 岁时便生下了他，管教极为严格；而父亲约翰·“桑尼”·弗兰泽斯（John "Sonny" Franzese）则是纽约赫赫有名的黑道二当家（Underboss），也是执法部门长期紧盯的头号眼中钉。从 Franzese 四五岁记事起，家庭生活就充斥着动荡与风暴，父亲频繁进出监狱、接受法庭审判。在幼年 Franzese 的眼里，最深刻的记忆是自家房屋常年被六七个不同情报与执法机构的便衣车辆层层包围。只要全家驾车出门，后方必定紧跟着一支宛如游行般的执法车队。这种无休止的监视让幼小的他早早确立了极端的敌我认知：警察、联邦探员和政府是骚扰家庭的恶徒与敌人，而登门拜访父亲的各路黑帮头目——那些被他唤作“乔叔叔”等名号的江湖人物——反而是和善亲切的长辈，不仅经常带他外出玩乐，更让他误以为父亲从事的是一种体面而受人尊敬的行当。 --- ### [06:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=392s) 父亲的双面人格：温情父亲与冷血暴徒在家庭内部，父亲 Sonny 展现出极具魅力与温和的一面。他不仅是母亲的好丈夫，更是一位尽职的父亲，最初极力反对 Franzese 涉足街头，督促他专心念书从医，远离江湖是非。相比于严厉体罚孩子的母亲，父亲在家里从未对子女动过一根手指。但随着年龄渐长，父亲深藏在优雅外表下的暴虐一面开始在 Franzese 眼前撕开裂缝。他清晰地记起两件打破童年幻想的震慑事件： 1. **曼哈顿之行的掐喉恐吓**：父亲当时涉足音乐产业，带着幼年的 Franzese 前往曼哈顿谈业务。中途停车会见某人时，父亲身旁的两个贴身随从陪同谈判，交谈突然急转直下变为激烈争吵。平日温和的父亲瞬间暴怒，单手一把掐住对方的咽喉，将其整个人凌空提离地面死死按在墙上，对方眼中流露出无尽的惊恐。这一幕让年幼的 Franzese 彻底看清了父亲在街头的冷酷铁腕。 2. **打晕拖延工期的木匠**：家中聘请了一位名叫 Sal 的彪悍木匠做活，此人因为要价便宜而被雇佣，但工程一拖再拖，惹得母亲天天对父亲唠叨抱怨。某天 Sal 再次登门，忍无可忍的父亲当着全家人的面骤然挥拳，当场将高大壮硕的木匠一拳击昏倒地。事后父亲只是轻描淡写地对惊愕的孩子们丢下一句：“别怪我，是你们母亲成天唠叨，我实在受够了。” --- ### [08:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=536s) 记忆深处的江湖暗流 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Sonny Franzese 的双面生活与家庭轨迹 accDescr: 展现 Sonny Franzese 表面上的慈父形象与背地里黑帮二当家的残酷暗流之间的巨大割裂。 subgraph 家庭表面 ["家庭日常表象"] A["温情慈父与丈夫 （严禁子女入黑道，期盼学医）"] B["家中熟客来往 （被幼童视为亲切的‘叔叔们’）"] end subgraph 暴力裂痕 ["早期暴力线索与阴影"] C["街头掐喉施暴与一拳击昏工匠"] D["执法机构全天候车队包围监视"] end subgraph 黑道现实 ["深层帮派纷争"] E["突发避难转移至长岛祖父母家"] F["满脸胡茬、贴身警卫戒备的短暂停留 （科隆博家族内部战争前兆）"] end A -. 掩盖.-> E B -. 撕裂.-> C D --> E E --> F ``` 在这些零散的记忆碎片中，最早的一次警讯发生在 Franzese 大约四岁的时候。当时全家原本住在布鲁克林，父亲却突然毫无征兆地将母亲和他紧急迁往长岛的祖父母家中寄宿。在长达数日见不到父亲后的一天清晨，父亲突然现身：他满脸胡茬、神色疲惫，显然已经多日未曾剃须；一名心腹干将如同保镖哨兵一般神情紧绷地立在门廊处戒备。父亲进屋抱了抱暗自垂泪的母亲，随后走到坐在台阶上的 Franzese 身边紧紧抱了抱他，逗留仅仅半个小时便匆匆离去。年幼的 Franzese 当时完全无法理解这突如其来的诡异气氛与家庭危机，直到多年后踏入江湖，他才恍然大悟：那次离奇的紧急避难与父亲的秘密潜行，正是因为科隆博犯罪家族内部彻底爆发了一场血腥残酷的黑帮战争。 ### [09:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=596s) 黑手党家族的内部层级架构回溯童年经历，迈克尔·弗兰泽斯（Michael Franzese）提到当年家族正处于帮派战争中，父亲因此长期无法回家，因为待在家里极度危险。这种动荡持续了很长一段时间，年幼的他当时并不理解其背后的真正含义，直到长大成人后回看，才将这些记忆的碎片拼凑完整。他的父亲桑尼·弗兰泽斯（Sonny Franzese）在黑手党内地位极高，先是担任角头（Caporegime / Capo），后来晋升为二老板（Underboss），手下有大批俯首帖耳的下属。主持人在现场拿出一份黑手党家族层级示意图请弗兰泽斯核实。弗兰泽斯确认这份架构图完全准确，并详细拆解了黑手党森严的金字塔结构： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 黑手党家族组织架构图 accDescr: 展示从最高的老板到最底层编外人员的黑手党权力等级结构 subgraph 决策与幕僚层 ["家族领导层"] B["老板 (Boss) 家族最高统治者"] C["顾问 (Consigliere) 老板的亲信战略顾问"] UB["二老板 (Underboss) 副手 / 二当家"] B --- C B --- UB end subgraph 街头指挥层 ["执行管理层"] CP["角头 / 队长 (Caporegime / Capos) 街头头目，可直通老板"] end subgraph 正式成员与外围 ["基础执行层"] S["士兵 (Soldiers) 行过血誓礼的正式成员 (Made Men)"] A["编外合伙人 (Associates) 未宣誓外围人员 / 无晋升资格者"] end UB --> CP CP --> S S --> A ``` - **老板（Boss）**：家族的绝对统治者与最高领袖，对家族内外事务拥有最终决定权。 - **二老板（Underboss）**：仅次于老板的二号人物；迈克尔的父亲桑尼正是这一级别的高层。 - **顾问（Consigliere）**：老板的参谋兼顾问，协助调解纠纷并提供决策建议。 - **角头 / 队长（Caporegime / Capos）**：负责管理各个行动小组的街头主管，具有极高的自主权，在许多事务上可以直接越级向老板汇报。 - **士兵（Soldiers）**：组织的最底层正式成员。只有在宣誓之夜举行了入会仪式、成为所谓“洗礼之人 / 正式成员”（Made Man）后，才能获得士兵头衔。 - **合伙人 / 外围人员（Associates）**：围绕在黑手党周围办事、分红的人员，但他们没有宣誓，永远不是正式成员。 --- ### [12:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=730s) 黑道演变史：从西西里防卫团到禁酒令帝国的崛起迈克尔·弗兰泽斯梳理了黑手党的起源与发展脉络。黑手党最早发源于意大利西西里岛，初衷是当地民众自发联合起来保护城镇、抵御外来掠夺者的自卫武装。然而随着时间推移，这个民间防卫团体逐渐演化成了犯罪组织。大约在1885年至1901年期间，大批黑手党成员通过埃利斯岛（Ellis Island）合法移民进入美国纽约。起初，这些早期黑帮分子只是在意大利移民社区内部盘剥同胞，从事高利贷（Loan Sharking）、勒索小商户收取保护费以及小规模的非法赌博。在弗兰泽斯看来，**真正将黑手党塑造成跨国犯罪巨头的并非别人，正是美国联邦政府自身——关键转折点就是1920年代的禁酒令（Prohibition）**。政府下达禁令后，民众对酒精的需求不减反增，黑手党敏锐地嗅到了暴利商机，全面接管了私酒制造与分销网络。仅在纽约州一地，黑手党就控制了多达 **36,000家地下酒吧（Speakeasies）**。禁酒令带来的现金流以当今币值计算高达数十亿美元，为黑帮奠定了无可匹敌的经济基础与组织化雏形。 --- ### [14:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=880s) 全国委员会的创立与纽约五大家族到了1940年代，随着势力膨胀，各帮派头目为了争夺金钱与地盘爆发了无休止的血腥内讧。来自意大利的查理·“幸运”·卢西安诺（Lucky Luciano）意识到这种内耗将毁灭所有人，他主张黑道必须企业化运作。卢西安诺联合其犹太裔得力助手迈耶·兰斯基（Meyer Lansky）——尽管兰斯基由于非意大利血统而无法成为正式“Made Man”，但他充当了核心智囊——创立了黑手党“全国委员会”（The Commission），将全国黑帮划分为不同的“家族”（Family）。这些所谓的“家族”并非指血缘纽带，而更像是同一大集团旗下设立的各个独立分公司，由卢西安诺等人钦点各派系领袖担任该家族的“CEO”（即老板）。 - **委员会运作机制**：全国委员会作为黑手党的最高权力机构，理论上负责为全美各家族制定规矩与宏观政策。只有家族老板或老板指定的官方代表才能获得委员会席位。 - **“黑道联合国”的现实局限**：弗兰泽斯戏称该委员会就像“联合国”一样，听起来威严庄重，实际上任何人都无法强行命令某个家族的老板该怎么做；老板在其独立王国里拥有绝对自主权，如果不情愿，完全可以对委员会的指令置若罔闻。 - **纽约五大家族的人员规模**：在迈克尔·弗兰泽斯活跃的黄金时代，纽约共有五大家族，正式宣誓的“Made Men”总数约有750人，此外还聚集了数以千计的外围合伙人（Associates）： - **甘比诺家族（Gambino family）**：约250名正式成员。 - **吉诺维斯家族（Genovese family）**：约250名正式成员。 - **博南诺家族（Bonanno family）**、**科隆博家族（Colombo family）**、**卢切斯家族（Lucchese family）**：各自拥有100多名正式成员，属于规模较小的家族。 --- ### [17:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1053s) 帮派内战与权力洗牌 1940年代全国委员会确立后，纽约五大家族之间基本消除了全面开战的现象，跨家族的利益冲突大多能通过谈判和平解决。然而，家族“内部”的内战（Civil War）却从未停歇。弗兰泽斯指出，黑手党内部没有民主选举，一旦有人野心膨胀想要篡位夺权，就只能诉诸残酷的暴力清洗。科隆博家族是纽约五大家族中以嗜血好斗闻名的家族之一。在弗兰泽斯的一生中，科隆博家族内部就爆发了整整三次全面内战。在这些内部火并中，外部家族有时会表态支持某一方，但绝不会派兵介入，任由内战双方分出胜负。 --- ### [18:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1130s) 解决争议的终极仲裁机制：“谈判坐谈”（Sit-down）由于日常充斥着暴力与利益摩擦，黑手党建立了一套严密而独特的纠纷仲裁机制——“谈判坐谈”（Sit-down）。弗兰泽斯解释，他在全盛时期几乎隔天就要出席一次坐谈，去摆平手下惹的祸或是复杂的商业利益纠葛。主持人指出这种机制与当代商业公司频繁开会、互发邮件的拉扯截然不同，似乎是一种极其高效的决策模式。弗兰泽斯对此表示认同，并详细还原了坐谈的铁律： - **最高仲裁者的权威**：较高级别的坐谈必须由家族老板亲自坐镇主持。老板的裁决是终审判决，不接受任何上诉。无论当事人内心多么不满，裁决一出，双方必须握手言和并立即离场，事情就此盖棺定论。 - **绝对尊重的语言红线**：坐谈过程中有一条不可逾越的死规矩——如果两个“Made Men”因利益冲突产生争执，即便对方满口谎言，你也**绝不能当面骂对方是“骗子”（Liar）**。一旦你在老板面前直斥对方撒谎，就构成了对同门成员的大不敬，你在程序上就会“直接自动输掉整场争辩”。参与者必须运用极高的情商与技巧，在不使用任何侮辱性词汇的前提下，引导老板看清事实真相。迈克尔·弗兰泽斯提到，他后来将黑手党的这一管理哲学写进了畅销商业书《给你一个无法拒绝的提议》（*I'll Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse*）。出版商哈珀柯林斯（HarperCollins）的团队读完黑手党“坐谈”的高效规则后惊叹不已，甚至打趣说以后公司内部再也不开冗长低效的会议了，所有管理议程全部改成这种雷厉风行的“Sit-down”。 ### [20:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1213s) 黑手党“谈判”与生死裁决在黑手党的残酷法则中，“谈判”（Sit-down）是一种高度程序化的高层调解机制。它不仅用于解决家族内部或家族之间的重大商业纠纷，在某些极端情况下，更直接决定一个人的生死命运。如果某位成员严重违反了帮规政策、犯下不可饶恕的过失，黑手党便会召开一次闭门谈判来裁决他的下场。在这种事关生死的审判中，当事人绝不会被允许到场；相反，会议由各自代表出面——有人替违规者求情辩护，有人则罗列罪状主张处决，最终由家族首领（Boss）拍板定夺。Michael Franzese 坦言，自己曾亲自参与过决定同僚生死的谈判，并亲眼见证过这两种截然相反的结局。 - **商业与违规调解**：谈判的核心功能是高效解决利益冲突与秩序违背，避免无休止的内部私斗。 - **缺席审判机制**：面临生死裁决的当事人被严格排除在外，全凭代理人在老大面前博弈陈词。 - **首领绝对裁决权**：无论辩论多么激烈，最后的生杀大权完全掌握在家族最高掌舵人手中。 --- ### [21:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1280s) 父亲入狱50年与医学梦想的破灭 19岁那年，Michael 的人生迎来了彻底的崩塌。他的父亲、科隆博犯罪家族二当家 Sonny Franzese 因涉嫌多起重罪，最终被重判 50 年监禁。对于一个当时已经 50 岁的中年人来说，加罚 50 年刑期无异于宣判他将死在狱中。谈及父亲，Michael 难掩激动的情感，他深情地回忆起父亲对自己的教导。父亲常对他说：“儿子，要做一个优秀的倾听者，开口之前先倾听，绝不要冒失插话。”因此，父亲成了 Michael 一生中最敬重、也最认真倾听的人。父亲入狱后，身为长子的 Michael 必须挑起家庭的重担。父亲离去时郑重嘱托他：“我把这个家交托给你了，当个好儿子，照顾好你的母亲和弟弟妹妹。”此前父亲多次受审时，母亲不得不前往数百英里外的纽约州奥尔巴尼（Albany）陪同受审，当时年少的 Michael 便留在长岛家中照顾三个弟妹数日。然而，当长达半个世纪的铁窗生涯成为不可逆转的现实，原本在大学立志学医（Pre-med）、准备成为一名医生的 Michael，生活轨迹被彻底扭转。 --- ### [23:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1431s) 构陷之谜：连环银行抢劫案与毒瘾证人在长岛监狱的探访室里，Michael 曾困惑地质问父亲：“爸，抢银行？这到底是怎么回事？”Sonny 坚定地看着儿子的眼睛，发誓自己是清白的，指控完全是联邦政府的构陷。Sonny 一生从未对 Michael 说过一句谎话，而更令 Michael 坚信父亲蒙冤的，是案件关键证人的底细——指控 Sonny 策划全美连环银行劫案的四名污点证人全部是严重的毒瘾患者。在家庭教育中，Sonny 极其憎恶毒品，一生都在向子女告诫毒品的毁灭性危害，甚至经常编撰寓言故事让孩子们引以为戒。这样一个对毒品深恶痛绝的高阶黑手党头目，绝不可能屈尊与一群吸毒成瘾的小贼合谋。联邦政府急于扳倒名震六十年代的黑道巨头，不惜使用极其卑劣的手段，这彻底点燃了 Michael 内心的怒火。他暗下决心，绝不能眼睁睁看着父亲老死狱中。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Sonny Franzese 被构陷与 Michael 命运转折 accDescr: 展示联邦调查局构陷 Sonny 以及促使 Michael 弃医从黑的逻辑演变 subgraph FBI构陷内幕 A["连环银行抢劫犯落网"] --> B["证人原指认 Tony Polisi"] B --> C["FBI施压: 需要更大目标 Sonny"] C --> D["选定无不在场证明夜晚 伪造 Q Motor Inn 密谋会议"] end subgraph 家族与信仰崩溃 D --> E["Sonny 被重判 50 年监禁"] E --> F["证人皆为瘾君子 违背 Sonny 绝不碰毒原则"] F --> G["Michael 坚信父亲蒙冤"] end subgraph 个人抉择 G --> H["家族老大 Joe Colombo 施压与庇护"] H --> I["放弃学医，决心入道营救父亲"] end ``` --- ### [25:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1514s) 监狱摊牌：“你能为了家族杀人吗？” 随着父亲身陷囹圄，科隆博家族首领 Joe Colombo 逐渐将 Michael 纳为心腹。许多父亲生前的江湖旧部不断向他灌输冷酷的现实：“迈克，你还在学校读什么书？如果你不帮你的父亲，他就会烂在监狱里！”在巨大的道义与情感拉扯下，Michael 终于做出了放弃医学前途的决断。他只身前往堪萨斯州的莱文沃思联邦监狱（Leavenworth Penitentiary）探视父亲，直截了当地摊牌：“爸，我不再去学校上学了。如果我不出来帮你，你会死在这里面的。”Sonny 一开始严词反对，他对儿子的放弃感到失望与心痛，深知这条江湖路充满杀戮与不归，极力阻止任何子女卷入。但年少气盛的 Michael 态度极其坚决，直言父亲再劝也是浪费口舌。见儿子心意已决，Sonny 的神情变得极其冷峻严肃。他注视着 Michael，问出了那个决定一生命运的问题：“如果局势所迫你必须杀人，你做得到吗？”（"If you ever had to kill anybody, could you do it?"）Michael 没有犹豫，平静地回答道：“爸，在特定情境下，我做得到。”（"Dad, under the right circumstances, yeah, I could do it."）Sonny 听后点头说：“这是正确的回答。”随后命令他：“回家去，会有人联系你。叫你做什么，你就照做什么。”黑手党有着绝对保密的铁律，即便是亲生骨肉，在正式入会前也不能透露任何运作细节；Sonny 恪守了誓言，只在心中默许了儿子的觉悟。 --- ### [28:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1685s) 加入黑手党的真正动机与翻供调查当被主持人问及当年是否真有杀人的心理准备时，Michael 回忆道，几十年前年轻气盛的自己或许只是说出了父亲期望听到的标准答案，如今已难以精确复盘当时的复杂心境。然而一旦他下定决心踏上这条不归路，父亲眼中流露出的不再是担忧，而是一种黑帮家族传承的欣慰与骄傲；在 Michael 最终完成受戒仪式成为“正式成员”（Made Man）那天，Sonny 更是欣喜若狂。 Michael 涉足江湖的核心目标非常纯粹：赚取巨额资金以聘请全美顶尖律师，并利用黑道情报网洗刷父亲的冤屈。他凭借敏锐的商业头脑在江湖迅速吸金，同时全力搜寻当年的污点证人。通过漫长而危险的调查，他成功追查到关键证人，并迫使其中三人正式翻供（Recant testimony）。经过严格的测谎仪测试，证实这些证人在法庭上作伪证，彻底揭开了联邦调查局的黑幕： - **替换首脑罪名**：涉案劫匪起初向调查局交代是 Tony Polisi 策划了银行抢劫，但探员直截了当地威胁：“指认 Polisi 只能减免少量刑期，我们需要的是 Sonny Franzese 这样的大鱼。” - **捏造犯罪会议**：检方指控 Sonny 在“Q Motor Inn”汽车旅馆召集会议策划了全部抢劫案，但这完全是 FBI 根据长期监视记录拼凑出的谎言。探员特意挑选了一个 Sonny 没有任何不在场证明、独自在家长岛闲坐的夜晚，以此做实虚构的密谋。 - **作证动机昭然若揭**：劫匪们为了自保与减刑，顺水推舟将全部罪责扣在了无辜的 Sonny 头上，制造了一场轰动全美的世纪冤案。 ### [30:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1822s) 父亲的罪与罚：政府构陷与程序正义的边界 Michael Franzese 谈到自己对刑罚的态度：他因自己犯下的罪行入狱，认罪并服满了刑期，对此毫无怨言；但他坚决否认父亲 Sonny Franzese 犯下了导致其入狱50年的银行抢劫罪，并直言“这桩罪行我会带进坟墓里，他绝对不是银行劫匪”。当主持人 Steve 询问他的父亲是否是个好人时，Michael 回应称父亲在坊间非常受欢迎、很有威望。面对 Steve 提出的尖锐问题——联邦调查局（FBI）指控 Sonny 卷入了 30 到 35 起谋杀案，即使银行抢劫是被栽赃陷害的，将其关进监狱是否客观上对社会是“净收益”（net positive）——Michael 从法律正义与宪制底线给出了反驳。他强调，政府绝不应以违法手段去维护法律，因为一旦撕开这个口子，法治就会蜕变为君主专制，“如果他们能对 Sonny Franzese 这么做，他们就能对任何一个普通人这么做”。在他看来，执法机关拥有足够强大的合法手段，在 96% 到 97% 的情况下都能依法定罪，绝不能逾越法律底线去对付罪犯。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 政府执法与程序正义的逻辑冲突 accDescr: 对比非法构陷与依法定罪的制度后果。 subgraph Problematic["非法构陷逻辑（不可接受）"] A["目标：将重罪嫌疑人（如Sonny）定罪"] --> B["手段：制造伪证/违法栽赃"] B --> C["破坏法治底线"] C --> D["权力沦为专制，所有人失去保障"] end subgraph Legitimate["正当程序原则（Michael立场）"] E["执法机构配备合法侦查工具"] --> F["合规取证与审判（覆盖96%-97%案件）"] F --> G["程序正义维护社会整体稳定"] end ``` ### [32:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1928s) 黑手党的沉默誓言与内部血腥法则谈及黑道生活中的暴力与伦理，Michael 澄清了大众对“缄默法则”（Omertà）的误解。他解释道，Omertà 本质上是保持沉默的誓约，并非要求人去撒谎、偷窃或无端杀戮。踏入这个地下世界的第一天，每个人就会被告知一套不可逾越的森严规矩： * **绝对禁忌**：严禁侵犯任何组织成员的妻子、女儿、姐妹或女友，违者处死。 * **毒品禁令**：在 Michael 所在的时代，家族严格禁止触碰毒品交易，一旦涉毒被抓，唯有一死。 * **尊重与诚实**：欺骗同伴、对长辈不敬或动手殴打其他“正式成员”（Made Guy），都属于死罪。 * **执行残酷性**：组织会明白地告知，执行家法的很可能就是你最要好的朋友，因为“这个组织高于一切”。 Michael 指出，正是这种极其残酷且一致认同的规矩，让黑手党得以维系上百年的严密统治。在当时的心理机制下，成员们自愿加入并接受这些后果，因而“清理门户”在黑手党内部被视为遵循自愿法则的合理惩戒。虽然他现在明白谋杀在法律与信仰层面都是不可饶恕的罪恶，但当时身处其中的人正是用“他们自己选择了这条路，且违背了誓言”这一逻辑来自我开脱。他也承认，“黑手党只杀自己人”并非绝对的事实，黑道内部存在滥杀，他亲眼见证过规则与失控的两面。 ### [34:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2046s) 为什么绝口不提具体杀人细节当主持人问及 Michael 为何从未公开谈论自己是否亲手杀过人时，现场气氛明显转为沉重。Michael 直言这绝非他愿意触碰的领域。作为一名重生的基督徒，他不想撒谎，但也不愿谈论暴力的细节。针对外界关于他是否因担心法律追责或黑手党封口令才保持沉默的猜测，Michael 作出了解释：如今许多在 YouTube 等社交平台上大谈自己杀人经历的前黑帮成员，大多是与政府达成了全面合作协议、获得了免责豁免权（Immunity）的污点证人；而他自己从未向政府提供过这种级别的配合，从未拥有对过去任何潜在罪行的豁免权。根据美国法律，即便仅是在凶案现场旁观，也可能被以同谋或谋杀罪起诉。更重要的是，从道德与心理层面而言，谋杀是极度丑陋且令人作呕的事，没有任何值得夸耀或挺胸炫耀之处。战争中的杀戮尚有保家卫国的名义，而在街头犯罪中，这种暴力没有任何荣耀可言。 ### [36:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2175s) 学徒期考验：极端的纪律与绝对服从 Sonny Franzese 被判重刑后，Michael 决定放弃大学学业。大约两周后，父亲从狱中传话给柯隆博（Colombo）犯罪家族的地下高层，提议引荐 Michael 入行。黑手党内部裙带关系盛行，新人无法毛遂自荐，必须有德高望重的成员担保。当时的前任教父 Joe Colombo 遇刺重伤并在数年纠缠后离世，新掌权的代理老板接见了他，并提出了苛刻到极点的效忠条件： > “从今往后，一周7天、每天24小时，你必须随叫随到，为柯隆博家族效命。这意味着，哪怕你母亲病重垂危，你正守在她病床前，只要我们传唤你，你必须立刻离开母亲赶来报到。在这个世界上，家族就是你的第一顺位。直到我们认为你配得上这份‘荣誉’，我们才会通知你。” Michael 答应了条件，随后进入了长达两年半的严酷考验期（recruits/pledge period）。在此期间，他经历了近乎苛刻的纪律磨炼： * **严苛的时间观念**：若通知上午 8:00 开会，成员在 7:30 未到即被视作迟到；如果担心次日塞车，甚至必须前一天晚上赶到并在车里睡过夜。 * **绝对戒备的司机与随从**：作为老板的司机，他必须在车里一动不动守候三到五个小时。Michael 曾因离开车去上厕所和买报纸而缺席岗位，导致老板出来时找不到逃逸车辆。虽然并未因此丧命，但他遭到了极其严厉的痛骂，并被“雪藏”（放逐冷冻）了两周，作为严重过失的惩戒。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 柯隆博家族候选成员考验机制 accDescr: 候选人从引荐到接受考察的各个关卡流程。 subgraph Entry["门槛引荐"] A["父辈引荐（Sonny提名）"] --> B["高层会面定规（随叫随到）"] end subgraph Probation["两年半考验期 (Pledge Period)"] B --> C["严酷纪律（绝不迟到/死守岗位）"] C --> D["极端杂务与心理威慑"] D --> E["暴力考验（证明具备执行任何指令的能力）"] end subgraph Outcome["正式资格"] E --> F["晋升为正式成员 (Made Man)"] end ``` Michael 坦言，黑道本质上充斥着暴力，若有人声称自己身处其中却与暴力绝缘，那他不是在撒谎就是从未成为过正式成员。在那两年半里，高层必须通过一系列极为凶险的测试，百分之百确信他有胆量和能力执行下达的任何指令。当被问及若当时母亲病危是否真的会离去执行任务时，Michael 承认当年的自己完全以规矩为准绳，受到深谙黑道行规的父亲的悉心传授与彻底熏陶，极有可能会遵从命令抛下母亲。 ### [40:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2418s) 黑手党的精神灌输与两大阶层：敲诈敛财者 vs 纯打手 Michael Franzese 坦言，年轻时父亲教导的一切他都全盘接受，并且其中很多话在当时看来确实是正确的。由于长期处于那种极端封闭的环境中，他逐渐被彻底洗脑，“那就是我当时的全部身份”。当主持人指出这听起来极像某种“邪教”（Cult）时，Franzese 表示在某种意义上确实如此。不过，黑手党内部除了那次神圣而隐秘的“入会仪式”之外，日常并没有其他古怪的仪式或荒唐繁琐的规矩。谈及在黑帮中浸淫多年所学到的人际交往与操控技巧时，Franzese 指出，黑手党成员大致可以划分为两个截然不同的层级： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 黑手党内部两大成员层级划分 accDescr: 图表展示了打手与敲诈敛财者在技能、分工及双向能力上的差异 subgraph Hierarchy["柯隆博家族构成 (共115名正式成员)"] Gangster["纯打手 / 街头硬汉 (Gangsters: 约95人)"] Racketeer["敲诈敛财者 / 生意人 (Racketeers: 约20人)"] end Gangster -->|"仅具备暴力执行力 无法胜任复杂商业与谈判"| Task1["充当家族打手 / 脏活执行者"] Racketeer -->|"掌控核心暴利生意 支撑并提升整个家族实力"| Task2["商业运作与巨额财富创造"] Racketeer -.->|"必要时必须兼备暴力手段 奉命执行严酷指令"| Gangster ``` - **纯打手（Gangster）**：这类人往往缺乏商业头脑，不知道如何利用黑道身份在正当或灰色商业中变现。他们大多是街头的“硬汉”，每当家族有暴力任务或脏活需要处理时，就会派他们出场，以此换取在组织内的立足之地。他们无论如何也无法转变为敲诈敛财的生意人。 - **敲诈敛财者（Racketeer）**：他们是家族真正的经济支柱。当时柯隆博犯罪家族（Colombo crime family）共有 115 名“正式成员”（Made men），但真正具备极强赚钱能力、能够支撑家族运转并提升家族地位的核心成员仅有 20 人左右。Franzese 强调，敲诈敛财者本质上也必须兼备打手的狠劲，因为一旦家族高层发出征召，即便他们平时专注于生意，也必须毫不犹豫地去执行暴力任务。作为核心赚钱者，Franzese 频繁卷入各类商业纠纷，不得不频繁参与帮派间的“谈判会议”（Sit-downs）。在这些残酷的交涉中，他彻底掌握了谈判的精髓：进入会场之前，必须提前摸透对手的性格特征，并为自己预设好底线与备用退路（Fallback position）。那些老派黑帮头目极其狡猾且经验老道，如果毫无准备地走入谈判桌，哪怕你百分之百占理，对方也可能巧妙地设下圈套，让你反被定罪、甚至落得倾家荡产的下场。 --- ### [43:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2595s) 黑手党教给我的商业谈判哲学：保持沉默与后发制人在被问及顶级销售与谈判的核心秘诀，以及黑手党内部有哪些外界罕见的行事准则时，Franzese 分享了一套极为实用的处世心理学。除了守时与尊重等基本素养外，最关键的武器在于“懂得闭嘴与倾听”。 Franzese 总结的谈判法则包括： - **即便你是全场最聪明的人，也绝不能让人看出来**：故意给对方抛出话头、扔出诱饵，引诱对方不断发言。对方说得越多，暴露出的性格特征、底层意图和致命破绽就越多；而你保持沉默，就能在暗中掌控全盘。 - **即使你不是最聪明的人，保持安静也能成为护身符**：少说话能营造一种深不可测的威慑感，让所有人都在揣测：“这家伙脑子里到底在盘算什么？” - **永远做最后一个开口的人**：在谈判桌上，绝不急于亮出底牌。黑帮中有许多智商极高的老江湖，如果他们走正道也完全能在主流商业社会大获成功。在那种场合，谈判失败的代价极其沉重——家族首领可能会当场下令：“你不仅要赔偿对方，还要把名下所有的资产全额上缴给家族。” --- ### [44:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2698s) 汽油税世纪大骗局：每周两百万美元买下的绝对话语权 Franzese 详细披露了他一手策划的、被誉为“自美国禁酒令时期以来最庞大”的汽油税诈骗案机制： ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 汽油税欺诈运作链条 accDescr: 展示巴拿马空壳公司如何通过进口低价汽油、截留高额税款并实行价格战排挤竞争对手 subgraph Supply["采购与空壳公司"] A["从中东油轮/大型石油公司 大批量采购汽油"] --> B["18家巴拿马空壳公司 (持有批发商资质牌照)"] end subgraph Distribution["分销与零售网络"] B --> C["向350余家加油站批发供应 (加价中包含政府燃油税)"] C --> D["截留全部汽油税款 (获得每加仑约40美分套利空间)"] end subgraph Operation["市场清剿与税务周期"] D --> E["利用每加仑便宜2-20美分降价策略 迫使街角其他竞争油站全部转单"] E --> F["利用政府季度申报拖延10-12个月 被查前直接弃壳注销、换新牌照"] end ``` - **空壳资质与利用监管漏洞**：当时法律规定汽油税必须由持牌批发商向零售加油站代收。Franzese 设立了 18 家巴拿马空壳公司获取执照，并利用巴拿马公司不记名股票（Bearer stock）的高度匿名性隐藏真实控制人。无需实体办公楼，只需合法执照和银行账户即可运作。 - **拖延战术与周期性脱壳**：利用美国政府税收征管系统极其迟缓的弊端，通过每季度递交申报的流程机制与官方周旋，往往能持续运作 10 到 11 个月甚至整整一年。一旦监管部门展开实际调查，他们就立刻关闭办公室、注销该牌照，并在新的空壳公司牌照下无缝重启业务。这套模式整整暴利运转了 7 年之久。 - **凶狠的渠道价格战**：Franzese 直接或间接掌控着 350 多家加油站。他在油源上直接从中东油轮和主流石油公司包揽大宗货源。在纽约街头，针对同一十字路口并存的四家加油站，他会买下其中一家（无论挂牌是美孚 Mobil 还是其他品牌），随后将其余三家老板召集过来施压：“无论你们挂什么零售价，我的售价永远比你们便宜 2 美分。你们降价 5 美分，我就降 10 美分；你们降 10 美分，我就降 20 美分。因为我手里有整整 40 美分的免税利润空间可以挥霍，随时能把你们挤兑到破产倒闭。但我们不想逼死你们，只要你们全部从我这里进货，大家都有钱赚。”面对每加仑 5 到 10 美分的巨大进货差价诱惑，所有的加油站最终全部倒戈，沦为他的分销网络。当看透这套模式潜藏的泼天富贵后，Franzese 找到了当时的代理老板 Carmine Persico（绰号“小老头”Junior）。面对老板起初“家族严禁涉毒”的警惕，Franzese 解释这是完全合法的“汽油税生意”，但他当场向家族首脑开出了交换条件：“这笔买卖一旦曝光，整条街上的所有帮派都会红着眼扑上来分一杯羹。只要我在外面参与任何谈判坐堂，不管对方来自哪大家族，你作为老板都必须在所有争端中无条件判我胜诉，绝不能搞内部政治平衡。只要你保我永远赢，我就会让你见到这辈子从未见过的巨额财富。” 老板靠在椅背上对他说：“证明给我看。”随后，Franzese 每周直接向家族首领进贡高达 200 万美元的现金。这笔天文数字为他在整个地下世界买下了坚不可摧的家族保护伞与至高无上的裁决权；在日后所有因油款拖欠或地盘争端而引发的黑帮谈判中，他始终立于不败之地。 ### [49:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2984s) 暴利帝国与晋升队长：每周上千万美元的汽油生意凭借在汽油免税欺诈中聚敛的惊人财富，迈克尔·弗兰泽斯（Michael Franzese）在黑手党内部的地位迅速飙升，直接被提拔为哥伦布家族的角头队长（Caporegime / Captain），手下统领着一支庞大的班底（Crew）。当时的他过着极致奢靡的生活，出行全靠私人喷气机和直升机。这项非法生意的规模大到不可思议：最鼎盛时期，他们每月倒卖多达 5 亿加仑的汽油，每加仑汽油抽取 30 到 40 美分的偷逃税款，每周为家族带来 700 万、800 万甚至高达 1000 万美元的净收益。主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）听闻后半开玩笑地感叹自己“入错了行”，因为即便自己商业运作得相当成功，也根本无法企及每周上千万美元的流水。迈克尔则笑言对方走在完全正确的正轨上，并坚决表示那个充满诱惑与暴利的汽油漏洞如今早已成为过去，自己早已抽身离开，甚至连重温或被其诱惑的念头都绝不想再有。 - **每周收益**：业务高峰期每周进账 700 万至 1000 万美元。 - **汽油销量**：每月销售大约 5 亿加仑汽油。 - **单加仑利润**：每加仑截留 30 至 40 美分的政府税收。 - **组织地位**：凭借巨额进贡迅速晋升为统领庞大班底的 Capo（队长）。 --- ### [50:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3033s) 成为“正式成员”：“名册封存”二十年后的破格晋升在黑手党内部，正式宣誓入会的仪式被称为“被扶正”（Straightened out），也就是成为一名受组织严密保护且不可侵犯的“正式成员”（Made Man）。迈克尔大约在经历了两到三年的“实习考察期”后迎来了这一刻。主持人形容这一过程听起来颇具神秘狂热的“邪教”色彩。迈克尔透露，他入会的 1975 年是一个极其特殊的历史节点——在此之前的大约 20 到 25 年间，出于全美范围内的严密安全考量，黑手党各大黑帮家族的正式入会名册一直处于“封存”（The books were closed）状态。在长达四分之一个世纪的时间里，全美各家族只有在老成员去世时才能“一对一”替补，绝不允许无故扩编。直到 1970 年代中期，委员会才决定重新开放名册以补充新鲜血液。迈克尔入会时，许多在街头打拼、苦苦等待了 20 到 25 年的老资历喽啰仍在排队等待机会。作为仅仅经过两三年考察便得以入选的极少数年轻一代，迈克尔的破格提拔成了街头的一把“双刃剑”。老成员心中滋生了极其强烈的嫉妒与怨恨，而这种在普通职场中常见的怨气，一旦投射在充满暴力法则的街头世界，其危险程度与应对难度往往要严重得多。 --- ### [52:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3122s) 1975年万圣节之夜：血誓与神圣入会仪式 1975 年的万圣节深夜，迈克尔与另外五名候选人被秘密带往一个庄严肃穆的场所举行入会仪式。事前他们未得到任何具体培训，仅仅被告知穿上正装待命。仪式在一间灯光昏暗的密室中逐一单独进行，房间内摆放着一张马蹄形的会议长桌。哥伦布家族的最高层悉数到场：老板（Boss）高坐中央，二把手（Underboss）与顾问（Consigliere）分坐左右，两旁则肃穆地站着家族所有的队长（Capos）；底层士兵（Soldiers）根本无权入内旁观。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 黑手党正式成员入会血誓流程 accDescr: 描述候选人进入密室至完成科萨诺斯特拉誓约的完整仪式步骤 subgraph Preparation ["准备阶段"] A["考察期结束 (约2-3年)"] --> B["受命身着正装待命"] B --> C["深夜单人步入昏暗密室"] end subgraph Ceremony ["仪式现场与血誓"] C --> D["穿过长廊立于Boss及高层面前"] D --> E["小刀割破手指滴血于地 (立下血誓)"] E --> F["双手合十托捧圣人画像"] F --> G["Boss点燃画像 (象征烈火焚身)"] end subgraph Oath ["重生成员誓言"] G --> H["宣读入会誓词 '今晚你在Cosa Nostra中获得新生'"] H --> I["背叛誓言必如圣人画像般 横死并在地狱受烈火焚烧"] I --> J["回答'我接受'，正式成为Made Man"] end ``` 迈克尔穿过通道停在老板面前，依令伸出双手。老板用小刀划破他的手指，让鲜血滴在地板上完成“血誓”（Blood Oath）。随后迈克尔双手合捧，老板将一张天主教圣人画像放在他的手心并点燃。火苗虽迅速烧尽而未灼伤皮肤，但象征意义极其厚重。老板注视着他念出永恒的戒律：“今晚，迈克尔·弗兰泽斯，你在‘我们的事业’（Cosa Nostra）中获得了新生。若你违背对这门生活的了解、背叛你的兄弟，你将横死并坠入地狱，如同你手中的圣人画像在烈火中化为灰烬。你接受吗？”迈克尔坚定地回答：“我接受。”回忆当时的心境，迈克尔坦言自己毫无恐惧，反而充满了难以言喻的亢奋与成就感——经历了两年半的严苛考验，他终于正式获得了与父亲更加紧密相连的身份。 --- ### [53:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3223s) 探究动机：拯救父亲的执念与脱轨的人生轨道当回首往事时，迈克尔直言自己当年加入黑帮的初心与许多人截然不同。他经常去少管所和监狱与青年帮派成员交流，这些年轻人对黑手党神往不已，渴望的是“金钱、权势、豪车和美女”。但迈克尔自幼就在这种环境中长大，他的家庭虽然算不上大富大贵，但也从未在财务上受过匮乏，有屋容身，偶尔还能度假，因此物质享受对他而言毫无神秘感与吸引力。迈克尔踏入江湖的唯一直接动机，完全是为了营救身陷重刑囹圄的父亲桑尼·弗兰泽斯（Sonny Franzese）。然而，一旦置身于那个体系之中，个人特质中的好胜心便开始发挥作用：“一旦我进入了这个流程，我就想把它彻底完成，我想成为正式成员，无论做什么我都渴望成功。”在导师们的提携点拨与日常帮派事务的耳濡目染下，迈克尔逐步看清并深陷进了这门生活的运转法则之中。 --- ### [55:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3318s) 黑手党的两极人格：嗜杀成癖者与冷酷执行者面对主持人关于帮派内部性格分化的提问，迈克尔深刻剖析了组织内的两类核心成员：一类是天生享受杀戮的变态嗜血者，另一类则仅仅是将暴力视作服从命令与履行职责的工具。迈克尔毫不犹豫地指出自己绝对属于后者——严格服从命令的执行者。而对于前者，迈克尔直接提到了臭名昭著的甘比诺家族杀手罗伊·德梅奥（Roy DeMeo）。迈克尔与罗伊·德梅奥相识，他直言罗伊是一个彻头彻尾的连环杀手。即便罗伊这辈子没有加入黑手党，他也注定会成为一名连环杀人犯，是天性而非黑帮造就了他的残虐。罗伊经营着一家名为“双子座俱乐部”（The Gemini Club）的场所，后来成为污点证人的同伙曾详细描述过他在那里的恐怖行径：不仅残害了上百条人命，甚至将受害者肢解碎尸。迈克尔感慨，能够做出这种极端残忍行径的人，在心理构造上完全属于另一种异类。 --- ### [57:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3472s) 暴力的根源：杀戮潜能是否深植于人类本性？针对人性是否生来善良、是否天然具备完美道德罗盘的哲学探讨，迈克尔给出了极其冷峻的反驳。他坚信普通人以为自己永远不会诉诸暴力的想法是完全错误的；事实上，暴力与毁灭的冲动存在于每一个人的骨子里，只要受到特定环境或事件的触发，任何人都能爆发出可怕的破坏力。迈克尔进一步阐述，这种触发有时出于正当动机（例如为了保护家人和朋友免遭侵害而做出极端反击），有时则纯粹是恶意的宣泄。他将黑手党与正规军队作了尖锐对比：“谋杀就是谋杀，无论你出于什么名义去犯下它。”一个人在日常生活中可能表现得温文尔雅、无比柔和善良，可一旦被送进军队受训，国家系统就会将其训练成致命的杀手去消灭敌对阵营。既然人人都能被环境塑造为剥夺他人生命的杀戮者，这就证明伤害与毁灭的潜能本就深埋在每一个普通人的基因当中。 --- ### [59:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3543s) 心理防御机制的建立：“野兽阿蒂”之死当被问及长期目睹血腥与暴力如何影响个人心理时，迈克尔坦白自己具备一种超乎寻常的“情感隔离”（Compartmentalize）能力。这种能够将恐怖记忆与当下生活彻底切断隔绝的心理防御机制，甚至有时会让他的妻子感到无法理解。他认为这种性格的形成完全源于早年混迹黑帮时经历的一场心理创伤。在迈克尔的亲生父亲入狱后，一位绰号叫“野兽阿蒂”（Arty the Animal）的硬汉走进了他的生活。阿蒂是一位凶悍的犹太裔黑帮骨干，也是桑尼·弗兰泽斯的挚友。在老弗兰泽斯服刑期间，阿蒂待迈克尔视如己出，悉心照料着迈克尔一家，两家人的关系情同手足。然而就在迈克尔年仅十七八岁、刚刚涉世未深之时，这位犹如他第二个父亲般的庇护者却突然在街头惨遭谋杀。这一残酷的流血现实给迈克尔带来了巨大的震撼，也永远地剥夺了他内心的平静与天真。 ### [59:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3586s) 目睹被残害的尸体与创伤的压抑迈克尔·弗兰泽斯（Michael Franzese）回忆起自己大约 19 或 20 岁时的惨痛经历。当时他的父亲刚入狱不久，他走进一家殡仪馆，一位死者的姐姐走上前拥抱他，并说道："你必须跟我来，你得看看这些畜生对我弟弟做了什么。"当她打开原本紧闭的棺材盖时，躺在里面的好友阿蒂（Arty）已经被残害得面目全非。弗兰泽斯深爱这位朋友，眼前惨绝人寰的景象让他极为震撼。尽管当时他强忍着没有晕倒，并试图在心理上跨过这道坎、告诉自己“这就是这种生活的一部分”，但这一幕成了他一生的心理烙印。即使几十年过去，弗兰泽斯在清醒时虽能克制情绪，但潜意识中的创伤仍在梦境中爆发。他的妻子经常在早晨问他：“你昨晚在梦里又跟谁打架了？”而他醒来时往往毫无记忆。主持人指出，心理上的“分格化处理”（Compartmentalization）或许只是短期的应对策略，未被消解的创伤终究会像“打地鼠”一样在别处浮现，弗兰泽斯对此深表认同。 - **死者身份**：弗兰泽斯深爱且关系极近的好友阿蒂（Arty）。 - **心理机制**：为了在黑帮环境中生存，年轻时的弗兰泽斯强迫自己压抑情感，将暴力视作日常代价。 - **长期创伤**：潜意识中的创伤在睡梦中频繁转化为激烈的梦中搏斗。 --- ### [01:03:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3782s) 黑帮内部的残酷法则与弑父阴影弗兰泽斯谈到了黑帮最邪恶的一面：在普通商业社会中，勾心斗角或背叛的代价最多是失去工作或金钱；而在黑手党中，任何违规的下场都是死亡。他曾有一位情同手足的密友因严重违反帮规而被判死刑，弗兰泽斯参加了多次黑帮谈判（Sit-down）竭力保他，却依然回天乏术。"在这个圈子里最可怕的事情之一就是，你一旦犯了错，领你走进那个房间的正是你最好的朋友，而你再也走不出来。" 为了说明帮规的极端残酷，弗兰泽斯讲述了另一对黑帮亲兄弟的骇人往事。有一天他开车送其中一人回布鲁克林的家，对方到家门口往里看了一眼后立刻退回车内，表示没人在家自己绝不能进去。追问之下对方透露：多年前他的父亲因与别人的妻子（或女儿）发生不当关系而触犯帮规，黑帮将刺杀令（Contract）直接下达给了他和弟弟，他们亲手杀死了自己的亲生父亲。由于弑父的阴魂长年笼罩着那栋房子，这名成员已有二十多年不敢独自一人踏进家门。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 黑帮内部极端惩戒与悲剧链条 accDescr: 展示帮规违背如何直接导致内部处决及毁灭性心理创伤的流程图 subgraph Violations ["帮规触犯"] V1["严重越界行为 / 道德违规"] end subgraph MobJustice ["黑手党裁判与执行"] S1["高层谈判 / 坐堂会审 (Sit-down)"] O1["下达处决令 (Contract)"] E1["指派身边至亲/挚友执行处决"] end subgraph Trauma ["不可逆后果"] T1["受害者丧命"] T2["执行者背负终身心理阴影与幽灵纠缠"] T3["家庭彻底解体与毁灭"] end V1 --> S1 S1 --> O1 O1 --> E1 E1 --> T1 E1 --> T2 E1 --> T3 ``` --- ### [01:06:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3966s) 整个家庭的毁灭与脱离黑帮的转折点弗兰泽斯强调，虽然极端的弑亲事件并非每天发生，但黑手党生活方式对家庭的破坏是绝对且不可避免的，他从未见过任何一个“正式成员”（Made man）的家庭能逃脱厄运： - **母亲**：在丈夫长达 50 年的刑期中（实际服刑 40 年），独守空房 33 年，直至 2012 年去世，晚年因怨恨导致夫妻关系彻底破裂。 - **大妹**：年仅 27 岁因吸毒过量死亡。 - **弟弟**：深陷毒瘾长达 25 年，若非弗兰泽斯全力庇护与救援，早已丧命。 - **小妹**：精神长期不稳定，40 岁时英年早逝。面对如此巨大的家庭悲剧，弗兰泽斯清醒地意识到这种生活充满了罪恶。当时年仅 20 岁的小女友（如今已结婚 39 年的妻子）的出现，让他强烈渴望摆脱这种命运。彼时他背负着 7 项起诉、经历 5 次审判、被捕 18 次，联邦政府组建了由 14 个机构联合组成的专案组誓将他终身监禁。他深知如果继续留在黑帮，结婚两年内自己必将把牢底坐穿。 --- ### [01:08:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4112s) 父亲的背叛与离开黑帮的真正诱因弗兰泽斯直言，仅靠爱情的力量并不足以让他彻底金盆洗手，真正切断他与黑帮纽带的，是来自亲生父亲的背叛。这一事件发生在遇到妻子两年前，当时大约 29 或 30 岁的弗兰泽斯已经积累了数以百万计的巨额现金财富，拥有私人飞机、直升机和庞大的手下团队。长岛一家报纸刊登了一篇虚假报道，宣称弗兰泽斯势力如日中天，准备脱离科隆博家族（Colombo crime family）自立门户，并称他涉嫌欺诈政府 20 亿美元。这篇凭空捏造的新闻引发了家族高层的猜忌，弗兰泽斯在一夜之间被召入密室质询。正是这场涉及金钱与权力的危机中，父亲对他的背叛让他彻底心寒：“如果这种生活连父子骨肉都能离间，我们在这里到底还拥有什么？”这次决裂最终促使他在 34 岁时彻底退出了黑帮。 ### [01:10:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4217s) 家族审讯与父亲的冷漠背叛街头流言和媒体炒作将 Michael Franzese 的收益夸大成了数十亿美元，这不仅招致了其他家族的嫉恨，也让科伦博犯罪家族（Colombo crime family）内部心生嫌隙。当时 Michael 势力雄厚，不仅联手俄罗斯黑帮建立了极为庞大的行动网络，身边还聚集着大批人马。然而某天晚上，他被召入一间密室接受高层审问，而他的父亲 Sonny Franzese 恰好在他之前刚离开那个房间。面对老大的质疑与盘问，Michael 极力据理力争：“我把这么多钱源源不断送给你们，如今却反过来被当众审判？承担所有坐牢风险的是我，我的人绝不会连累你们任何人，媒体随便写篇报道你们就信以为真，别人身上写报道你们倒说是假的。”激愤之下，他几乎就要当场与老板公开顶撞，但他很快想起了江湖准则——“绝对不要盖过主子的锋芒”（never outshine the master）。他迅速克制情绪、冷静收尾，随后两人如同往常一样喝了一杯红酒散场。真正的精神重击发生在他坐进车里之后。负责开车载他来的同僚也是和他一起长大的老牌头目（Capo）。Michael 愤怒地质问对方为何不提前向他透露今晚的鸿门宴陷阱，对方反问：“如果是反过来，你会告诉我吗？”Michael 哑口无言，承认自己也不会。下车之际，对方拉住 Michael 的手臂，坦露了一句残酷的事实：“我们遵循着江湖规矩，但我真的是你的朋友——你父亲刚才在里面根本没帮你说半句好话，反而是在害你。” 回到车上的 Michael 备受打击，但他深知父亲的脾气：Sonny 当时正处于假释期，为了明哲保身，极可能直接推诿称“我儿子在外偷税敛财做这些事，我根本不知情”，直接将 Michael 推到了任人宰割的境地。以 Sonny 当时身为头目的威望，本可以强硬发声保全儿子，却选择了独自脱身。在充满背刺与抢夺地盘的黑帮世界里，失去家族最深层庇护的 Michael 险些跌入被彻底吞并生意的致命陷阱。 --- ### [01:13:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4404s) 庞大的合法商业帝国与黑帮抽成规则在汽油骗局之外，Michael Franzese 实际上搭建了一个极为庞大且合法的商业矩阵： - **两家汽车特许经销店**：一家非常赚钱的马自达（Mazda）经销店和一家雪佛兰（Chevrolet）经销店。 - **汽车租赁公司**：为汽车业务配套现金流与车辆周转。 - **电影制作公司**：涉足影视业，制作了约 30 部在当时极具市场号召力的恐怖片与剥削电影（exploitation films）。 - **多家餐馆与社区录像带租赁店**：在录像带租赁黄金年代深耕街区市场，与百视达（Blockbuster）错位竞争。 - **街头放贷网络**：将巨额资金批发借给手下的手下，再由他们分销赚取高利贷差价。关于黑帮的“抽成（Tribute/Tax）”规则，Michael 澄清了外界的误解：合法的商业收入完全属于他个人，只要帮派未在资本或运营上提供帮助，就不需要上缴一分钱；但所有来自街头不法行径的灰色资金（如放贷、走私和汽油税欺诈），都必须按比例向上进贡。针对自己如何打入正规商业圈，Michael 表示并不全靠暴力恐吓。以他接手濒临破产的马自达车行一事为例，对方知道他的黑帮家世背景，而他则凭借激进的商业魄力直接接盘。由于自己身背官司且手头一度没有启动资金，他看准了通用电气金融（General Electric Credit Corporation）负责汽车库存融资（Floor Plan）的审批人员对黑手党生活的迷恋。Michael 与对方达成私下协议：由对方提供数十万美元的采购授信去向厂商提车，作为回报，车行每售出一辆车，就私下返给该人员几百美元现金。这种精明的街头智慧与一周七天的高强度连轴转，让他迅速盘活了车行资产。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Michael Franzese 商业结构与黑帮分账规则 accDescr: 展现 Michael 的合法业务与非法业务，以及它们是否需要向黑手党上缴规费 subgraph Legitimate["合法商业版图（无需向帮派上缴规费）"] L1["汽车经销与租赁 (马自达/雪佛兰/租赁公司)"] L2["影视娱乐制作 (约 30 部恐怖与剥削电影)"] L3["实体零售与餐饮 (社区餐馆与录像带租赁店)"] end subgraph Illegal["灰色与非法资本（必须按规矩上缴帮派分成）"] I1["街头高利贷转贷网络"] I2["汽油税走私骗局巨额利润"] end L1 & L2 & L3 --> Self["全额归 Michael Franzese 个人所有"] I1 & I2 --> MobTax["向科伦博家族高层足额进贡抽成"] ``` --- ### [01:15:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4558s) 汽油案暴雷、认罪策略与绝不怨天尤人的处世哲学 Michael Franzese 曾经历过五次联邦或地方指控的刑事审判，全部以撤案或判决无罪全身而退。但最终彻底击溃这台印钞机的，正是核心的汽油税走私案。与他联手策划这一惊天骗局的合伙人 Larry 因另一起不相干的刑事案件落网，执法部门给出唯一免除终身监禁的条件：交出 Michael Franzese。 Larry 随即转为污点证人。尽管在早期案件中出庭指证 Michael 时被辩护律师驳得体无完肤、信誉扫地，但 Michael 意识到旷日持久的追击永无宁日。他决定执行一套全新的脱身战略： - 在汽油税一案中选择认罪协议（Plea bargain），以换取大幅缩减的刑期。 - 主动缴纳巨额赔偿与没收财产：上缴 500 万美元资产没收（包括名下的私人飞机与直升机），并承担 1500 万美元的赔偿金（Restitution）。 - 在服刑完毕后携未婚妻移居西海岸彻底洗手，断绝与黑手党江湖的一切瓜葛。谈及昔日搭档 Larry 的反水，Michael 流露出极为复杂的情绪。Larry 身高六英尺四英寸，体重 450 磅，两人并肩打拼七八年从未红过脸，双方家庭关系深厚，甚至互相让孩子叫对方“叔叔”。当 Larry 涉案后，手下人曾主动提议帮 Michael “做掉” Larry 灭口，但 Michael 坚决回绝，宁愿在法庭上通过正当程序对抗，也不愿对他及家人痛下杀手，这一决定甚至引来了同帮派成员的不满。 Michael 直言自己无法真正去痛恨 Larry，因为他很早就知道对方心理意志薄弱（weak），大难临头招供是人性使然。他总结出一套受用一生的原则：在任何灾难面前，绝不沉溺于指责他人（The Blame Game）。将过错推给别人是懦弱的表现，唯有全盘承担责任、审视自己在识人与防范上的失误，才能避免在未来重蹈覆辙。 - **法庭纪录**：此前五次刑事指控均以胜诉告终（无罪或撤诉）。 - **认罪代价**：500 万美元犯罪资产没收（含飞机、直升机），1500 万美元法庭赔偿金。 - **合作搭档**：Larry，身高 6 英尺 4 英寸、体重 450 磅的商业策划大脑，因外案被逼转做污点证人。 - **处事原则**：拒绝在暗中杀害证人灭口；凡事从自身找原因，拒绝扮演受害者推卸责任。 ### [01:19:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4773s) 黑道博弈：为何绝不让老板见自己的生意合伙人谈及人性的软弱与坚强，迈克尔·弗兰泽斯（Michael Franzese）对身边的搭档有着极其清醒的认知。他早就看透自己的汽油生意合伙人拉里（Larry）是个软骨头，根本扛不住牢狱之灾，“他如果摊上麻烦，绝不可能坚挺到底，他一定会配合警方”。黑道家族的老板当时多次提出想见这位合伙人，其背后的真正意图昭然若揭——一旦摸清底细，家族随时准备将这个人夺走并据为己有。弗兰泽斯凭借过人的谋略彻底堵死了老板的企图。他当着众人的面直接回绝：“我绝不会带他去见你。这个人太懦弱了，一旦出事他会把认识的所有人全供出去。我为什么要让他认识你，回过头来还要被你怪罪是我引荐了他？”这番滴水不漏的说辞让家族高层无言以对。弗兰泽斯公开表态：“这个人扛不住事。他是我的问题，我会用我自己的方式解决，但我绝不会把他引荐给可能被他拖下水的人。”这一策略不仅保护了家族首脑，更将这棵摇钱树牢牢掌控在自己手中。因此，当拉里最终真的成为告密者时，家族首脑的第一反应就是彻底清除后患。高层直截了当地告诉弗兰泽斯：“我们会替你解决掉他，只要告诉我们他在哪。”家族之所以急于除掉拉里，不仅是为了灭口报复，更盘算着只要这个人消失，弗兰泽斯就能继续将暴利的汽油走私骗局运转下去。 ### [01:20:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4851s) 黑手党下达暗杀令的残酷机制在黑手党内部，决定一个人的生死往往只在一念之间。弗兰泽斯指出，黑帮首领下达谋杀指令异乎寻常地简单，特别是针对帮派内部人员时，更是轻描淡写得令人不寒而栗。首领只需一句“把他办了”（take care of him），暗杀指令便会层层下达给指定的枪手，整个过程“绝对不容许有任何质疑”。至于具体如何执行、在何时何地动手，则全由被指派的人全权负责。暗杀任务是黑道成员不可推卸的死命令，如果任务失败，执行人自身就会陷入极度危险的境地。除非发生有正当理由的中途流产（aborted attempt），执行者通常不会被问责；但若是被指派的任务没能完成，而目标对象随后又做出危害家族的事，执行者往往要付出血的代价。 ### [01:22:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4920s) 敲诈勒索认罪协议与保障家人生活漫长的法律围剿最终迫使弗兰泽斯接受认罪协议（Plea Deal）。他承认了一起以税务欺诈为基础犯罪的敲诈勒索阴谋案（Racketeering Conspiracy），换取了 10 年监禁、1470 万美元的赔偿金（restitution）以及 500 万美元的资产罚没。面对巨额的罚金，弗兰泽斯在谈判中仍竭尽全力为家庭留好后路。他明确告知律师：“如果要我认罪，我必须确保我的妻子和孩子安然无恙，我绝不会让我妻子出去抛头露面打工。”凭借律师出色的谈判能力，弗兰泽斯成功保留了一部分合法资金，确保了他在漫长服刑期间，妻子始终衣食无忧。 - **认罪罪名**：敲诈勒索阴谋案（底层指控为联邦汽油税欺诈） - **刑期**：10 年联邦监禁 - **法定赔偿与罚没**：1470 万美元赔偿金 + 500 万美元资产没收 - **家庭保障**：谈判中保留了足够家眷生活的合法资产 ### [01:23:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4998s) 堆满房间的数千万现金与去汽油味的“冰箱偏方” 谈到黑道敛财的实际场景，弗兰泽斯坦言，虽然大宗汽油批发通常通过电汇走账，但零售端依然卷入了天文数字的现金流。弗兰泽斯亲眼见过的单笔现钞总额高达四千至五千万美元。在上世纪80年代初，这笔巨款直接堆满了一整个大房间。因为加油站日常收取的主要是小面额纸币，庞大的钞票体积远超常人想象。现金泛滥到了令人苦恼的地步。弗兰泽斯每次回家，皮箱里都塞满了 1 美元和 5 美元的小钞，家里根本没有多余的空间存放。他经常抓出厚厚几千美元的小钞扔给妻子，让她“拿去分给弟弟妹妹花”，自己只保留 10 元、20 元甚至更大面额的纸币。这些来自加油站的钞票还带来了意想不到的麻烦——浓烈的汽油味。一次，不知情的妻子帮他去银行存大笔现金，柜员当场诧异地质问：“为什么你们的钱总有一股刺鼻的汽油味？”被吓到的妻子回家后坚决拒绝再去银行。弗兰泽斯从未向妻子透露任何犯罪细节，只推说批发汽油经常要收加油站现金。为了消除钞票上的气味，他特意买了一台冰箱，把成捆的钞票和小苏打（baking soda）一起放进冰箱冷藏吸味，成功掩盖了现金的来源痕迹。 ### [01:25:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5128s) 被打乱的资产转移计划与提早降临的起诉在风雨飘摇的时期，弗兰泽斯原本制定了周密的资产隐藏与逃脱方案，但整个计划却被一位“内线律师”彻底搞砸。为了摸清司法部的动向，他重金聘请了刚刚辞职离开纽约东区联邦检察官办公室（Eastern District of New York）的联邦检察官约翰（John）。弗兰泽斯开门见山地要求：“我只要你办一件事，告诉我针对我汽油案的起诉书什么时候会下达、我什么时候会被捕。” 在搭档拉里变节告密之后，这位前检察官信誓旦旦地向弗兰泽斯保证：“放宽心，起诉最快也要到 1986 年 6 月，你还有大把时间。”当时是 1985 年中旬，弗兰泽斯刚在 7 月完婚，他原以为自己至少还有七到九个月的时间来腾挪资产。然而到了 1985 年 12 月，大陪审团突然发起起诉并直接对他下达了不得保释（no bail）的羁押令。整整提早半年的突袭彻底粉碎了弗兰泽斯的如意算盘，使他原本正在各处转移隐匿的巨额实体资产陷入极度被动的僵局。 ### [01:26:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5218s) 奥地利神秘账户的 3300 万美元死锁在汽油欺诈骗局全盛时期，弗兰泽斯与合伙人拉里为了防止彼此挥霍，在奥地利开设了一个高保密的编号银行账户。他们将侵吞的每加仑 9 美分联邦消费税源源不断地汇入其中，账户里的存款很快滚到了约 3300 万美元。为了互相制约，账号密码被一分为二，两人各自保管一半，任何单方都无法独自支取款项。当拉里变节成为联邦污点证人后，弗兰泽斯通过拉里的儿子小拉里（Larry Jr.）带话：“告诉你父亲，法庭上的官司归法庭，千万别把钱交出去。那是属于我们、属于你们全家的钱。”拉里起初确实守口如瓶，并在时任联邦检察官鲁道夫·朱利安尼（Rudolph Giuliani）主导的庭审中出庭指控弗兰泽斯。然而，弗兰泽斯的辩护团队在法庭上彻底击垮了拉里的公信力，陪审团宣告弗兰泽斯无罪。这场溃败让纽约东区检方勃然大怒，直接威胁要把拉里踢出联邦证人保护计划。吓破胆的拉里为自保，慌忙向 FBI 交出了自己掌握的那一半奥地利银行账号。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 奥地利银行账户密码博弈机制 accDescr: 展示弗兰泽斯与合伙人各持一半密码、FBI海外受挫及最终诉辩谈判的流程 subgraph DualKey["奥地利编号账户 ($33M)"] K1["拉里持有一半账号"] K2["弗兰泽斯持有另一半账号"] end subgraph Crisis["拉里翻供与 FBI 遇阻"] L_Betray["拉里法庭作证失败 面临被踢出保护计划"] --> L_Surrender["交出手中前半部分账号"] L_Surrender --> FBI_Action["FBI 赴奥地利提款"] FBI_Action --> Austria_Reject["奥地利银行严辞拒绝 '无完整账号一分不给'"] end K1 --> L_Betray K2 -.->|"死锁：缺另一半无法取款"| Austria_Reject subgraph PleaDeal["认罪协议谈判"] Austria_Reject --> Lawyer_Advice["律师建议：将后半账号 作为减刑筹码"] Lawyer_Advice --> Final_Plea["打掉原本 1 亿美元罚金 与 25 年监禁要价"] end ``` 得到半个账号的 FBI 探员信心满满地远赴奥地利，以“黑手党不义之财”为由要求冻结提款。然而，奥地利银行当局毫不买账，冰冷地回绝道：“不管这是什么钱，没有完整的账号密码，你们连一分钱都别想拿走。” 这笔巨款随即陷入彻底死锁。直至弗兰泽斯后来再次被起诉并陷入认罪谈判时，联邦检方最初开出的条件高达 25 年有期徒刑以及 1 亿美元的天价罚金。此时，辩护律师对弗兰泽斯力劝：“你这辈子都不可能拿到那笔钱了，拉里已经把底牌掀了一半。把你的那一半账号交出来吧，它是我们压低刑期和罚金最重的谈判王牌。” ### [01:28:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5339s) 认罪协议与地下埋藏的黑金谈及司法交易与追缴财产的细节，Michael Franzese 透露，当合作方交出资产后，原本面临的刑期从 25 年有期徒刑及 1 亿美元罚金，被大幅缩减至 10 年监禁、1500 万美元罚款以及 500 万美元的资产没收条款。尽管失去了这笔巨额资金令人心痛，但这确实换取了关键的量刑宽大；更具戏剧性的是，由于该合伙人选择与检方合作，政府最终甚至从没收的 3300 万美元中返还给他 250 万美元，让他勉强保住了一笔收益。当主持人 Steven Bartlett 询问他在地下是否埋藏过现金时，Franzese 毫不避讳地承认，不仅埋过，而且是直接装进保险箱后深埋在地底——不是单个，而是数个保险箱。在有组织犯罪的生涯中，任何有清醒头脑的人都会预期自己迟早要面临牢狱之灾，分散藏匿资金是生存本能。围绕这笔下落不明的黑金，执法部门始终深信他私藏了庞大的财富。政府甚至曾聘请一名调查员专门追踪他的资金脉络，该调查员寻访了全球多地可能涉案的离岸账户，最终一无所获并就此写成了一本书。直到今天，许多退休特工依然坚信这笔钱存在，甚至在私下场合直截了当地对他说：“我们百分之百知道你手里有这笔钱，我们只是想知道你到底什么时候去把它挖出来。” - 认罪协议最终将刑期与罚金从 25 年与 1 亿美元降至 10 年与 1500 万美元（含 500 万美元没收条款）。 - 合作者从被查抄的 3300 万美元巨款中拿回了 250 万美元。 - 退休联邦特工至今仍认定 Franzese 在各地秘密藏匿了未被起获的黑金，并等待他前去起出。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 认罪协议量刑与资金流向对比 accDescr: 展示认罪协议前后刑期罚款变化及资产查抄返还流程 subgraph Before["原定指控与处罚"] A["面临 25 年监禁 面临 1 亿美元罚金"] end subgraph Plea["辩诉交易结果"] B["减至 10 年监禁 1500 万美元罚款 (含 500 万没收条款)"] end subgraph Funds["涉案资金处置"] C["查抄 3300 万美元"] --> D["合作返还: 250 万美元"] C --> E["剩余收归政府"] end Before -->|达成合作/资产清缴| Plea ``` --- ### [01:32:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5567s) 父亲的监狱生存法则：礼貌胜过拳头主持人坦言，被误判入狱是他每隔几个月就会经历的深层梦魇，Franzese 听后深表同感，指出背负莫须有的罪名身陷囹圄确实是终极噩梦。不过对他而言，监狱是一座必须学会如何周旋其间的微型社会。在踏入铁窗之前，他的父亲 Sonny Franzese 曾传授给他三句受用终身的字眼：“请（Please）”、“谢谢（Thank you）”以及“劳驾 / 对不起（Excuse me）”。老弗兰泽斯解释，许多在街头上得不到尊重的囚犯，进入监狱后都会竭力展现自己是不可招惹的硬汉。若在走廊撞到人，立刻说声对不起；若要在排队取餐时插队或越过他人，务必客气询问对方是否介意；当有人递东西给你时，诚心道谢。Franzese 目睹过不少试图在狱中摆谱逞凶的黑帮人物——包括甘比诺家族的老大 John Gotti（约翰·高蒂）——在里面碰壁碰得头破血流。在许多面临终身监禁、毫无退路的亡命之徒面前，江湖声望一文不值。凭借这种低调、谦和且尊重他人的处事之道，Franzese 在服刑期间从未招惹过任何暴力冲突。 - 父亲 Sonny Franzese 告诫他入狱后最关键的三句敬语为：`Please`、`Thank you` 和 `Excuse me`。 - 许多无期徒刑犯人毫无顾忌，黑帮头目如 John Gotti 试图在狱中摆架子施展威风往往毫无效果。 --- ### [01:34:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5693s) 单独禁闭 29 个月：精神与肉体的炼狱因为在一桩重大案件中坚决拒绝出庭指证一位昔日友人，Franzese 激怒了检方与执法部门。几天之内，他便因涉嫌违反假释规定被重新拘捕，并直接被投入俗称“地洞（The Hole）”的单独禁闭室，作为官方对其拒绝妥协的惩罚。这一关就是整整 29 个月零 7 天——先在第一处监狱关押了 11 个月，经过两天的转移后，在第二处监狱度过了剩余的禁闭时光。忆及那段黑暗岁月，Franzese 依然流露出难掩的压抑与不适。他强调长期的单独监禁是极其残忍的折磨手段，因此他坚决反对对年轻人实施禁闭。在牢房熄灯后，四周常会传来成年壮汉精神彻底崩溃的惨状：有人不断用头部猛砸铁栏，有人甚至采取极度自残的恶劣手段，仅仅为了能离开那个令人发疯的封闭狭间被送往外医或普通牢房。虽然牢房内配备了基本的洗手池、马桶以及带薄床垫的床铺，但彻底切断社交的孤立感才是摧毁人意志的元凶。为了避免食物中毒，加上两度因监狱伙食患上肉毒杆菌中毒（ptomaine poisoning），他后期只敢食用麦片、香蕉和冲泡杯汤，体重从原本的 190 多磅骤降至获释时的 166 磅。在几近绝望的环境中，Franzese 依靠一台索尼 Walkman 随身听中的音乐维系着精神支柱。某年平安夜，刚在电话中听到妻子与全家团聚的声音后，巨大的落差感令他几近崩溃，正是耳机里的旋律将他从悬崖边缘拉回。伴随着《圣经》的研读以及收听一位素未谋面的牧师讲道，他最终熬过了这片精神荒原。 - 禁闭时长：连续单独监禁共计 29 个月零 7 天。 - 体重变化：因食物中毒与严苛饮食限制，体重从 190 多磅锐减至 166 磅。 - 精神支撑：依靠一台 Sony Walkman 随身听、阅读《圣经》以及收听牧师讲道支撑心智不至崩溃。 ### [01:38:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5904s) 狱中的精神支柱与家庭纽带在单独监禁的漫长孤寂中，外面的声音成了迈克尔·弗兰泽斯（Michael Franzese）赖以维持理智的救命稻草。当时他每天清晨都会收听格雷格·劳里（Greg Laurie，现为 Harvest Crusade 的知名牧师）的早间广播节目。尽管当时两人素未谋面（如今已是挚友），但劳里牧师振奋人心的话语成了弗兰泽斯每天最大的期盼。除了精神寄托，与家人的联络更是决定服刑人员心理状态的关键。弗兰泽斯回忆起父亲当年坐牢时的悲惨遭遇：那时狱方一个月只允许通一次三分钟的电话，以及一次八小时的探视。正是这种严酷的隔绝，让父亲彻底与家庭脱节，夫妻渐行渐远，妹妹甚至几乎不认识父亲。弗兰泽斯深知这种物理疏离的杀伤力，因此入狱时他对狱方提出的唯一底线就是： > “你想关我就关我，只要给我打电话和探视的权利。随便你们怎么折磨我，我都能忍，但绝不能剥夺我的电话和探视。我也绝不会违反任何规定给你们借口。” 他的妻子卡米·弗兰泽斯（Cammy Franzese）在他长达八年的刑期中始终不离不弃。当时卡米还很年轻，在笃信基督教的母亲以及韦斯特伍德山基督教会（Westwood Hills Christian Church）的全力支持下，独自照料年幼的孩子们，撑起了整个家。然而考验接踵而至。在服刑五年后，弗兰泽斯曾获释回家十三个月。那是一段极度煎熬的日子：黑手党对他下了必杀令（death contract），四处有人想置他于死地；同时联邦政府步步紧逼，强迫他转为控方证人。最终他因违反假释规定再次入狱。当时联邦探员甚至当面击溃卡米的心理防线，断言道：“你再也见不到你丈夫自由了，我们要用新案子起诉他，他彻底完了，赶紧死心吧。”这番话导致卡米精神彻底崩溃，连续六七个星期无法前往探视。弗兰泽斯坦承，如果当时妻子真的放弃并离他而去，他在禁闭室里绝对会充满怨恨与愤懑，“我绝不可能像现在这样走出来”。因为他所做的一切——包括彻底脱离黑手党——归根结底全都是为了她。 --- ### [01:41:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6068s) 踏入死局：绝非英雄主义的“机械服从” 谈及脱离黑道，弗兰泽斯澄清外界的误解：即便深知那是条不归路，但若没有妻子，他无论如何也无法抽身。彼时他受到的黑手党思想灌输实在太深。他回忆起那个险些丧命的恐怖夜晚——当被高层召见、踏入那间生死未卜的房间时，他脑子里想的只有“今晚我死定了”，但他依然迈步走了进去。主持人史蒂芬感叹这简直是英雄壮举，弗兰泽斯却苦笑着坚决否认：“那根本不是英勇，而是像机器人一样的麻木（robotic）。”长期浸淫在黑帮杀戮与规矩中，让他陷入了一种扭曲的宿命感：“我看过太多这种场面，当时心里想的是——‘行吧，轮到我了’。”表面上他极力掩饰恐惧，强撑着不让别人看破，但实际上双膝发软、心跳剧烈得快要撞破胸膛，在房门即将打开的瞬间他紧张得几乎要昏厥过去。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 弗兰泽斯被召见时的心理与权力博弈 accDescr: 展示弗兰泽斯走进生死房间时的心理状态、黑手党高层的两种可能动机以及父亲在其中的反应。 subgraph Mindset["心理机制"] A["长期黑帮思想灌输"] --> B["机械服从：'轮到我了'"] B --> C["极度恐惧但强装镇定"] end subgraph Motives["高层召见的真实动机（弗兰泽斯推测）"] D["敲山震虎：威慑其庞大势力与财富"] E["借口清洗：侵吞其暴利的汽油业务"] end subgraph Betrayal["父亲的态度"] F["索尼·弗兰泽斯提前离场"] G["面对质询仅回以'我不知道'"] G --> H["未予保护，实质上抛弃了儿子"] end C --> Motives Motives -. 试探与权衡.- Betrayal ``` 那个夜晚之所以成为他一生的梦魇，是因为他的亲生父亲、家族二老板索尼·弗兰泽斯（Sonny Franzese）也在场。不过当弗兰泽斯被带进房间时，父亲已经被单独问话完毕并提前离开了。根据弗兰泽斯的复盘，当晚高层叫他过去无非出于两个目的之一： 1. **敲山震虎**：当时弗兰泽斯日进斗金，手下兵强马壮，名字频频见报；高层试图通过死亡威胁警告他：“别以为你赚了大钱、成了气候就能妄动，我们才是老板，敢跨过底线你就得死。” 2. **借机清洗**：怀疑他在账目或规矩上动了手脚，以此为借口除掉他，进而接管他庞大的汽油走私网络。弗兰泽斯一向极度谨慎，他从不让外人接触核心合伙人，手下的直属班底也完全独立于其他“正式成员（made men）”。当他们日后倒台时，受牵连的也仅限于他自己的手下，这既保护了家族成员，也是为了防范高层染指他的生意。而正因如此，高层极有可能借机痛下杀手。 --- ### [01:43:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6196s) 致命的沉默：来自父亲的背叛当弗兰泽斯推测父亲是否知晓高层动了杀心时，他给出了肯定的答复。然而最令他心碎的，是父亲在那场决定生死的闭门谈话中的表现。父亲并没有积极罗列儿子的罪状，但当高层试探性地询问时，他仅仅丢下一句冷漠的：“我不知道，这事我无可奉告，我不清楚。” 这种撒手不管的暧昧态度，在黑手党的生死边缘等同于致命的落井下石。事后，当晚开车载弗兰泽斯的吉米（Jimmy）私下透露了实情：“你父亲把你推到了大巴车底下（threw you under the bus），他一点都没帮你，反而在里面害了你。” 两年后，弗兰泽斯就此事质问父亲，父亲矢口否认。弗兰泽斯最终选择不再追究，对父亲说：“爸，我知道你干了什么，有人向我证实了。但我依然爱你，我懂黑道里的规矩，我理解。”他甚至在内心彻底原谅了父亲。黑手党的世界扭曲了所有人的人性，在那里“对即是错，错即是对”。尽管感情上伤痕累累，但站在如今信仰的角度，弗兰泽斯认为这两场磨难是命运必须的安排： - **斩断血脉枷锁**：他与父亲之间那种病态而紧密的江湖羁绊必须被强行撕碎，否则他永远无法真正独立离开。 - **直面死亡的勇气**：他必须切身体会过直面死亡的恐惧，日后才有胆量脱离黑帮。当弗兰泽斯公开脱离家族时，老派作风的老板极其愤怒，将其视为奇耻大辱并下达追杀令；而父亲索尼也为了维护自身的黑帮名誉，与他断绝父子关系长达数年。起初黑帮众人认定弗兰泽斯退隐必定会加入联邦证人保护计划、四处出庭指证同僚，直到数年后他们确信弗兰泽斯至死守口如瓶、从未指控任何兄弟，父子关系才得以冰释前嫌。 --- ### [01:46:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6366s) 莎士比亚式的家族悲剧与母亲的阴影当主持人追问索尼既然爱儿子，为何能坐视他走入险境而不予保护时，弗兰泽斯剖析了这出充满“莎士比亚戏剧式”荒诞与残酷的家族内幕。弗兰泽斯确信父亲是深爱自己的，但父亲一生最大的软肋在于：**他在黑手党江湖中的传奇声望高于一切**。与此同时，家庭内部微妙的嫉妒心理也在暗中作祟。弗兰泽斯深爱的母亲性格十分复杂强势，多年来她一直享受着作为黑帮传奇二老板之妻所带来的万众瞩目。然而，随着年轻的弗兰泽斯迅速崛起，成为家族乃至全美黑手党中最能赚钱、风头最劲的风云人物，外界的聚光灯瞬间从他们老两口身上移走。弗兰泽斯极不情愿地吐露了一个深埋心底的推测：母亲可能在父亲耳边吹了枕边风，出于嫉妒或失落说了某些挑拨的话，在父亲潜意识里种下了怀疑与不满的种子。尽管面对面相处时父亲从未表露出丝毫嫉恨，但在枕边风与自身地位的微妙影响下，心态难免发生偏差。弗兰泽斯甚至推测，或许父亲当晚并非想置他于死地，而是默许高层进行这场极端试探，试图以此“敲打”一下锋芒毕露的儿子。这出交织着病态名誉、家庭嫉妒与黑道铁律的纠葛，最终铸成了那个险些要了他性命的惊魂之夜。 ### [01:48:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6493s) 清晨五点半的破冰：与父亲决裂十年后的重逢迈克尔·弗兰泽斯与主持人探讨了无论外表多么坚硬强悍的人，内心深处其实都需要爱。谈及自己的父亲桑尼·弗兰泽斯（Sonny Franzese），迈克尔坦言在自己选择脱离黑手党之后，父子关系再也没能回到从前。两人整整有大约十年时间没有说过一句话。直到迈克尔刑满释放、父亲也在假释期间，且父亲终于意识到迈克尔虽然退出但并没有在法庭上指控或伤害任何家族成员时，父亲主动打电话提出想要见一面。父亲提议在某个特定地点碰头，但迈克尔当场拒绝：“不行，我只去你家见你，我不去别的地方。”迈克尔坦白承认，当时彼此之间依然存在戒备与不信任。他选择清晨五点半前往父亲的住处，一方面是因为两人当时都在假释期，有犯罪前科的人私下接触属于违规，需要避人耳目；另一方面，迈克尔清楚母亲也在屋里，而在父亲自己的家中，绝不会安排任何伏击或第三方在场。迈克尔在清晨五点半推开门，只见父亲双臂抱胸站在那里注视着他。父亲开口说的第一句话竟然是：“如果你当年听我的话，你现在早就是科隆博家族的老大（Boss）了。”迈克尔看着父亲难以置信地回应：“爸，你是活在《迷离时空》（Twilight Zone）里吗？我现在侍奉的是另一位主了。”父亲盯着他追问：“你意思是说，你搞的那些《圣经》基督教那一套是认真的？”在得到迈克尔坚定的肯定答复后，父亲的态度终于缓和下来，说了句“好，那我们谈谈吧”。接下来的三个小时里，父子俩长谈了当年发生的桩桩件件。迈克尔把积压多年的愤怒与委屈倾倒出来，直截了当表明自己绝不可能重返黑帮，并严肃告诫父亲：“如果你心里还有什么不想面对或不想挑明的事，那就别告诉我，我不想听。”这场交心虽然极为沉重艰难，但最终让两人达成了某种和解与共识。迈克尔也解释了为什么外界指责他后来没出席父亲的葬礼：社交媒体上的看客根本不了解内情，如果迈克尔出现在公开葬礼上，必然会成为焦点，甚至可能遭遇其他老派黑帮成员的挑衅与冲突，从而毁了父亲最后的体面。迈克尔选择在私下告别父亲，维护了这份尊重。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 父子破冰重逢流程图 accDescr: 迈克尔·弗兰泽斯与父亲桑尼·弗兰泽斯十年决裂后的破冰与沟通节点 subgraph MeetingSafety["会面安全考量"] A["父亲主动来电提议外出碰面"] --> B["迈克尔拒绝外出会面 坚持只在父亲家中见面"] B --> C["防范伏击与假释违规 清晨 5:30 抵达（母亲在场）"] end subgraph TheConfrontation["关键对话与破冰"] C --> D["父亲：听我的你早就是家族老大"] D --> E["迈克尔：我如今信奉基督，侍奉新主"] E --> F["父亲确认其真诚后破冰： '好，那我们谈谈吧'"] end subgraph Reconciliation["和解与边界"] F --> G["长达 3 小时坦白交谈 宣泄愤怒并明确永不回头"] G --> H["达成和解；日后选择私下悼念 缺席公开葬礼以防黑帮寻衅"] end ``` - 两人因迈克尔金盆洗手而断绝往来长达约 10 年之久。 - 会面定在清晨 5:30，双方当时均处于假释监视状态（Parole）。 - 缺席公开葬礼是出于避免引发黑帮内部冲突和抢夺焦点的深思熟虑，而非外界谣传的薄情。 --- ### [01:51:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6701s) 无法言说的黑帮往事与极端恐惧当主持人史蒂芬询问迈克尔在各大播客和演讲中“究竟有哪些故事是绝对不能讲的”时，迈克尔并未透露违禁机密，而是揭示了那类故事背后令人不寒而栗的本质——在那个世界里，身边熟悉的人会毫无征兆地彻底消失或走上绝路。他举了一个刻骨铭心的真实案例：当年迈克尔手下有一名老兵托尼（Tony），此人早年跟随迈克尔的父亲，后来归入迈克尔的旗帜下担任手下士兵。在一次黑帮同僚的葬礼上，托尼神色慌张地找到迈克尔，私下坦白自己卷入了一桩涉及黑帮更高层人物的违禁毒品交易。迈克尔当场大发雷霆，斥责托尼作为江湖老手怎么会犯下如此低级的致命错误。但他依然安慰托尼：“别担心，我会去替你摆平。”当时两人正站在一具被谋杀身亡的同党棺木旁，托尼绝望地反驳：“迈克尔，那个人被杀的事情你都没能摆平。”迈克尔极力安抚他，承诺道：“情况完全不同，不要混为一谈。你是立过功的老兵，备受尊重，我向你保证绝不会让你有事，他们绝不可能把你骗进房间处决掉。” 随后迈克尔乘私人飞机前往佛罗里达州处理自己投资拍摄的电影事务。刚下飞机，手下便打来电话告知噩耗：托尼走进了一个公用电话亭，拔枪饮弹自尽。这位在江湖摸爬滚打一生的老黑帮，深知黑道内部处决叛徒或犯错者的残忍手段，因为极度恐惧被人“骗进密室处决”（Walked into a room），宁愿选择在电话亭里亲手结束生命。迈克尔感叹，这就是黑手党生活最真实而残酷的底色。 - 涉及高层违规交易在黑帮内部往往意味着死刑。 - 托尼宁愿在公共电话亭饮弹自尽，也不愿面临被家族密谋处决的下场。 - 迈克尔感叹此类涉及同伴暴毙和死亡阴影的记忆，是他至今回想起来依然沉重且复杂的经历。 --- ### [01:53:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6811s) 从黑帮头目回归家庭：尊重与性格软肋话题转向个人现实生活，主持人询问迈克尔如果去问其妻子，迈克尔身上最挣扎、最难相处的缺点会是什么。迈克尔自嘲道，自己在街头和江湖上曾经呼风唤雨、威风八面，可一旦回到家里，自己就仅仅是个普通的父亲，甚至经常感到被孩子们“占便宜”。他经常在家里抱怨：“我为你们所有人倾尽所有、跑前跑后，可你们却觉得理所当然，一点也不知道感恩。” 迈克尔承认自己是个极其慷慨的人，愿意为身边人付出一切，但他唯一的底线就是“尊重”。由于半生浸泡在极度讲求等级与尊重的黑帮文化中，他对“不被尊重”的感觉异常敏感，甚至到了神经质的地步。他坦承妻子也经常指出他的问题——哪怕是一丁点微不足道的琐事，他也会立刻上升到“有人在不尊重我”的层面。比如在日常人际交往或商业往来中，如果给某人打电话，对方隔了两三天都不回电，在普通人看来可能只是忙碌，但在迈克尔眼里就是赤裸裸的不敬与挑衅，他内心会极为反感且久久难以释怀。 - 在家庭角色中，迈克尔常因家人缺乏反馈与感激而产生挫败感。 - 黑帮生涯留下的烙印使他对“被冒犯”或“不尊重”的容忍度极低，连未及时回复电话都会引发其强烈不适。 - 迈克尔自我剖析道，这种对尊重的严苛要求早已根植为难以磨灭的个人性格特质。 --- ### [01:54:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6891s) 二十五年演讲生涯：公众真正关心的痛点作为一名脱离黑帮后巡回演讲近二十五年的公众人物，迈克尔分享了人们找他演讲的真实诉求。起初，全球受众普遍对黑手党的奇闻轶事充满痴迷——得益于《教父》等经典影视作品以及阿尔·卡彭（Al Capone）、约翰·高蒂（John Gotti）等黑帮枭雄的大众文化传播，无论是美国还是从未存在过黑手党本土势力的英国，公众对黑手党的好奇心超越了任何其他犯罪群体。观众起初都希望听他讲述打打杀杀的江湖传奇，以及他如何从黑道抽身并在合法商业世界重新立足。然而令迈克尔始料未及的是，每当演讲进入现场问答（Q&A）环节，观众提出的问题往往完全偏离了黑帮暴力： - “你缺席家庭这么多年，服刑出狱后妻子是如何重新接纳你的？” - “你怎样修复与孩子之间疏离破裂的关系？” - “面对人生巨变，你如何调整心理落差，如何确认自己做出了正确的抉择？” - “在漫长的低谷与挣扎中，你是怎样挺过来的？” 迈克尔意识到，普通人在各自的生活、婚姻与家庭中同样经历着巨大的创伤与挣扎。大众之所以对他产生共鸣，是因为他曾深陷最绝望的泥潭却奇迹般地重建了人生，人们渴望从他的经历中汲取走出自身困境的力量。每天从社交媒体、邮件和短信涌入的求助让迈克尔深感责任重大。为了超越单纯的演讲分享，迈克尔透露自己正在筹备建立一个专门的互助社区平台，汇集自己的团队与社会资源，为那些在生活中苦苦挣扎的人提供切实的辅导、社群支持与双向救助。 ### [01:57:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7028s) 异常人生的商业启示与微观管理辩证法史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）坦言，自己在录制前几乎从不看黑帮电影，对黑手党一无所知，但今天的对话让他深感震撼与启发。他认为，任何走过异常、非典型人生道路的人，都经历过独特的生存试炼，并提炼出了关乎世界运行、人性和生存的根本法则。这些原则不仅适用于边缘生存，对当代商业世界同样极具迁移价值。例如黑手党内部的“面对面谈判”（sit-down）机制——现代商业中充斥着冗长的邮件往来、头脑风暴和以员工休假为借口的推诿扯皮，极度匮乏直面问题的坦率与坦白对话。迈克尔·弗兰泽斯（Michael Franzese）如今已蜕变为合法的商界人士和企业家，史蒂芬便向他请教，还有哪些昔日的黑帮生存法则仍在指引他的商业管理。弗兰泽斯随即抛出一个观察：“我看你可不像是个搞微观管理（micromanaging）的人。”史蒂芬听到后陷入了思考，并决定现场核实，直接将幕后团队成员杰克（Jack）叫到了麦克风前，要求他必须百分之百诚实地评价老板的管理风格。杰克坦言，史蒂芬在某些特定领域确实会深入细节进行微观管理，但在另一些板块则完全放手，关键在于“何时有必要介入”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 史蒂芬的管理控制与信任模型 accDescr: 展示史蒂芬如何基于证据决定是微观介入还是完全放权。 subgraph Audit["初始阶段：系统解构"] A["痴迷于最微小的细节"] --> B{"是否有充足事实证据？"} end subgraph Execution["管理策略分支"] B -- "无证据 / 胜任力未验证" --> C["深度介入与极权式把控 (Monarchal)"] B -- "有充分胜任证据" --> D["彻底放权并退出系统运作"] end ``` 史蒂芬剖析了自己的管理二元性：他在骨子里对系统的微小细节极度痴迷，必须亲手摸透系统底层的运转逻辑。然而，一旦他看清负责该板块的专业人员做得远比自己出色，他就会彻底抽身退出，承认自己毫无必要介入。例如现场的摄制与后期剪辑，他对摄像机设备和剪辑软件一窍不通，也毫无干涉欲望，因为杰克已经用扎实的交付建立了不可动摇的信任。史蒂芬指出，信任是无法伪造的，它完全建立在“事实证据”的基础之上： - **“飞天意面神教”的比喻**：史蒂芬打了个比方——如果有人拿出 100 万美元现金，要求你坚信眼前的人是“飞天意面怪物”，无论你主观上多么想拿到这笔钱，你肉眼所见的全是正常人类的四肢与特征；你充其量只能选择撒谎假装相信，内心却绝不可能真正相信。信任与此同理，必须由过往的事实验证来驱动。 - **两种极端的统一**：史蒂芬对待团队既有“给下属极大自由度”的一面，也有在关键节点上表现得“专制如君主”（monarchal）般严苛考究的一面。 --- ### [02:00:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7245s) 弗兰泽斯的商业心法：做最擅长的事与理顺个人生活弗兰泽斯分享了自己的管理信条。他年轻在黑手党管理旗下暴利业务时，风格同样非常亲力亲为、雷厉风行，但随着年岁渐长，他很早就悟出了一个底层教训：绝对不能微观管理。微观管理不仅在扼杀团队，更是对高管自身核心价值的严重剥夺，它会把你从最擅长、最能为企业创造巨大价值的事情上抽离出来。因此，弗兰泽斯将自己的商业法则高度凝练为一组双刃剑原则，并延伸到个人生活的治理上： - **核心业务法则**：“做你最擅长的事，把剩下的事情授权出去（Do what I do best, delegate the rest）。”同时，领导者必须具备激励员工的才能，通过激发潜能来榨取组织的最大产出，因为没有任何单个人能把所有事情都做好。 - **个人生活与事业的镜像法则**：弗兰泽斯经常告诫企业家必须先把自己的个人与家庭生活理顺。商业往往是个人现实生活的投射与镜像，两者休戚与共。如果个人生活一片狼藉、失序崩溃，这种混乱迟早会全面反噬并摧毁商业板块，没有人能在一端溃烂的同时在另一端保持长久成功。 --- ### [02:02:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7328s) 决定人生的顿悟时刻：黑帮誓言与泰勒牧师的救赎依照《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）的闭幕传统，上一位匿名嘉宾为弗兰泽斯留下了一个深刻的问题：“在你的生命中，哪一次事件、对话或经历成为了让你醍醐灌顶的顿悟时刻，彻底改变或影响了你的人生轨迹？” 弗兰泽斯沉思后坦言，在跌宕起伏的生命岁月中，真正定格为人生分水岭的有两次：第一次是当年父亲桑尼·弗兰泽斯（Sonny Franzese）亲自引荐他加入黑手党誓盟的时刻；而第二次，则是他与主持自己婚礼的牧师迈伦·泰勒博士（Dr. Myron Taylor）的一席深谈。弗兰泽斯回忆了那次改变命运的会面： - **关上房门的反思**：当时他依然深陷黑手党高阶头目的罪恶网络中，即将与未婚妻完婚。在教堂与素不相识的泰勒牧师见面时，弗兰泽斯做出了一个冲动的决定——他让未婚妻先离开房间，单独面对泰勒博士。 - **罪人的发问**：弗兰泽斯直截了当地对牧师摊牌：“博士，你根本不了解我的底细。我这辈子干尽了伤天害理的坏事，过着极其残酷暴力的生活。我妻子一直告诉我，这些罪孽是可以被饶恕的——这真的可能吗？” - **打破心防的接纳**：在此之前，弗兰泽斯虽然尊重未婚妻和岳母坚定纯粹的基督教信仰，但他内心深处完全不信那一套，甚至自我防御地认为“她们根本不知道我有多坏”。但这位善良、开明的泰勒牧师毫无道德审判，用博大的胸襟和开导彻底打动了他，仅用了不到半小时的对话，就在弗兰泽斯冰封的内心埋下了一颗充满希望的种子：也许这辈子还有回头路，也许人生的轨迹还可以被彻底改写。 --- ### [02:04:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7479s) 结语与生命告白：不被过去定义的四季人生谈及自己想要留给全球观众的闭幕信息，弗兰泽斯动容地表示，他希望向所有身处逆境、正在与黑暗挣扎搏斗的人传递一份鼓励与希望。弗兰泽斯强调，人永远不必被自己的过去所击垮，也不必永远被过往的错误或污点所定义。许多时候，人是有力量去扭转并重构自己的人生的，他自己就是活生生的证据。如今，驱动他不断巡回演讲、站在聚光灯下的核心动力，不再是名气或金钱，而是来自世界各地普通人的邮件和信息反馈——那些写着“迈克尔，你的经历激励了我，重新点燃了我的希望”的字句，让他感到生命获得了极大的救赎与丰厚的回报。史蒂芬深受触动并总结道，弗兰泽斯的一生深刻印证了一件事：每个人的生命都如四季更迭，我们完全拥有跟随季节改变自我的权利与许可。任何人都不必死死绑定在一个固定的身份标签、过去的罪责、一份旧的职衔或者曾经混迹的圈子上；尽管转变的过程绝非朝夕之功，但只要下定决心，在任何时刻，我们都可以重新启程，去蜕变成为那个真正应该成为的自己。 ### [02:06:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7576s) 人性的蜕变、救赎与来自宿敌的序言主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对迈克尔·弗兰泽斯（Michael Franzese）的人生轨迹进行了深刻的剖析与反思。他认为，从本质上讲，迈克尔依然是当年的那个人，但所处的环境改变了，信仰动摇与重建了，所需承担责任的对象变了，核心价值观也得到了彻底的提炼与重塑。归根结底，这是同一个血肉之躯在拥有了截然不同的行为原则与人生目标后的蜕变。斯蒂芬坦承回顾自己的人生亦是如此，自己过去并非总是完美无缺，也曾经历过艰难晦暗、做过一些甚至不便在镜头前公开谈论的错事。他深信人性中最美好的一面在于：人们永远拥有进化的机会，能够得到宽恕并重新出发，且最终应当依照他们“今天所展现的样子”来被评判。斯蒂芬还特别提到了迈克尔著作《黑手党民主》（*Mafia Democracy*）中耐人寻味的细节——该书的序言居然由鲁迪·朱利安尼（Rudy Giuliani）撰写。斯蒂芬由衷觉得这种黑色幽默十分奇妙：朱利安尼在迈克尔大半个职业生涯中都是针锋相对的死敌，不仅曾全力推动法律制裁终结黑手党昔日的黄金时代，甚至一度试图将迈克尔判处一百年监禁，如今却在迈克尔的书前作序。斯蒂芬感谢迈克尔毫无保留的坦诚，因为回忆特定人生阶段的某些过往绝非易事，而迈克尔的讲述揭示了身为人类的真实复杂性，以及每个人内心时刻交织对抗的各种力量。即便两人的生活轨迹截然不同，其中的人生课题与相似之处却极具启发性与解放感。 - **本质与原则**：人的底层特质虽未改变，但环境的迁徙、受责备对象的转变以及核心价值观的升华，赋予了生命完全不同的意义与方向。 - **宽恕与进化**：人类社会最大的希望在于给予个体反省、蜕变和被宽恕的权利，社会对一个人的评价应着眼于其当下的作为。 - **昔日宿敌写序**：曾极力指控并试图判处迈克尔 100 年徒刑、摧毁黑帮鼎盛时期的前联邦检察官及纽约市长鲁迪·朱利安尼，最终为迈克尔的著作作序，象征着一段充满宿命感的解构与和解。 ### [02:07:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7665s) 忘年相惜：对年轻一代拼搏精神的赞许与告别面对主持人的赞誉，迈克尔同样表达了对斯蒂芬的深切赞赏与敬意。迈克尔坦言，看到像斯蒂芬这样年轻有为的后辈能够头脑清醒、脚踏实地工作，并在年纪轻轻时就达到如此卓越的高度，让他感到深受启发。迈克尔表示自己事先也深入了解了斯蒂芬的创业经历，知道他靠着脚踏实地的苦干打拼创办了非凡的商业帝国。迈克尔寄语斯蒂芬继续保持势头、砥砺前行，成为那些只要全力以赴埋头苦干就能取得成功的人们的典范。在真挚的致谢与彼此祝福声中，这场横跨黑手党风云、商战、牢狱之灾与灵魂救赎的深度对话圆满落幕。 ## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=0s) 在黑手党里只有两个层次：你要么是一个敲诈吸血的敛财者（Racketeer），要么是一个纯粹的打手暴徒（Gangster）。 — Michael Franzese > [25:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1514s) 如果局势所迫你必须杀人，你做得到吗？ — Sonny Franzese > [25:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1514s) 爸，在特定情境下，我做得到。 — Michael Franzese > [30:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=1822s) 如果他们能对 Sonny Franzese 这么做，他们就能对任何一个普通人这么做。 — Michael Franzese > [36:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=2175s) 从今往后，一周7天、每天24小时，你必须随叫随到，为柯隆博家族效命。这意味着，哪怕你母亲病重垂危，你正守在她病床前，只要我们传唤你，你必须立刻离开母亲赶来报到。在这个世界上，家族就是你的第一顺位。直到我们认为你配得上这份‘荣誉’，我们才会通知你。 — 科隆博家族代理老板 > [52:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3122s) 今晚，迈克尔·弗兰泽斯，你在‘我们的事业’（Cosa Nostra）中获得了新生。若你违背对这门生活的了解、背叛你的兄弟，你将横死并坠入地狱，如同你手中的圣人画像在烈火中化为灰烬。你接受吗？ — 科隆博家族老板 > [01:03:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=3782s) 在这个圈子里最可怕的事情之一就是，你一旦犯了错，领你走进那个房间的正是你最好的朋友，而你再也走不出来。 — Michael Franzese > [01:08:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4112s) 如果这种生活连父子骨肉都能离间，我们在这里到底还拥有什么？ — Michael Franzese > [01:10:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=4217s) 我们遵循着江湖规矩，但我真的是你的朋友——你父亲刚才在里面根本没帮你说半句好话，反而是在害你。 — Jimmy > [01:38:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=5904s) 你想关我就关我，只要给我打电话和探视的权利。随便你们怎么折磨我，我都能忍，但绝不能剥夺我的电话和探视。我也绝不会违反任何规定给你们借口。 — Michael Franzese > [01:48:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=6493s) 如果你当年听我的话，你现在早就是科隆博家族的老大（Boss）了。 — Sonny Franzese > [02:00:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A&t=7245s) 做你最擅长的事，把剩下的事情授权出去（Do what I do best, delegate the rest）。 — Michael Franzese ## Mentioned Michael Franzese, Steven Bartlett, John "Sonny" Franzese, Jordan Peterson, Joe Colombo, Lucky Luciano, Meyer Lansky, Carmine Persico, Roy DeMeo, Larry, Rudolph Giuliani, John Gotti, Greg Laurie, Cammy Franzese, Dr. Myron Taylor, Colombo crime family, Gambino family, Genovese family, Bonanno family, Lucchese family, The Commission, Federal Bureau of Investigation (FBI), The Gemini Club, General Electric Credit Corporation, HarperCollins, Blockbuster, Mazda, Chevrolet, Sony Walkman, Westwood Hills Christian Church, Harvest Crusade, I'll Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse, Blood Covenant, Mafia Democracy, Franzese Wines ## Video description Michael Franzese is an American former mafia member who served as a caporegime in the Colombo crime family. He is the best-selling author of books such as, ‘Blood Covenant’ and ‘I'll Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse: Insider Business Tips from a Former Mob Boss’. 00:00 Intro 02:25 Who is Michael Franzese? 04:27 Inside a Mafia Family 06:32 My Dad Was A Mafia UnderBoss 10:35 How the Mafia Family is Structured 12:10 The History of the Colombo Family 17:33 Mafia Family Wars 18:50 What Happens at a Mafia Sitdown? 20:51 How the Mafia Decides Who Lives and Who Dies 21:20 Franzese’s Dad In Prison 23:30 Joining the Mafia: How Michael Franzese Became a Made Man 30:34 My Dad Was Involved in 35 Murders 33:56 How Does The Mafia Kill People? 36:15 Is There Mafia Training? What It Takes to Join 39:49 Choosing The Mafia Over My Loved Ones 40:56 The Mafia’s Manipulation Tactics 43:15 Business Lessons from the Mafia 44:58 How I Made Millions with the Gas Station Scam 52:02 Swearing the Mafia Oath 53:43 Why I Joined the Mafia 55:18 Mafia Members: Killers vs Rule Followers 57:52 Do We All Have the Instinct to Kill? 59:51 How Seeing a Dead Body Changed My Life Forever 01:05:20 “He Had To Kill His Father” 01:09:31 The Moment My Dad Betrayed Me 01:14:25 Was All the Money Illegal? 01:15:33 How Mafia Life Helped My Business Success 01:16:56 When Does Everything Come Crashing Down? 01:21:51 How Easy Is It to Order a Murder in the Mafia 01:23:53 Money Rules in the Mafia 01:29:24 How the FBI Tracked My Bank Accounts 01:30:31 Where I Hid My Mafia Money 01:33:48 What It’s Really Like Behind Bars 01:35:55 “I Was Kept in Solitary Confinement” 01:38:24 How I Survived Solitary Confinement Without Losing My Mind 01:42:46 How Power Is Maintained in the Mob 01:44:36 My Dad Didn’t Stand Up for Me 01:49:10 Reconnecting with My Father After Betrayal 01:52:42 The Mafia Stories I Can’t Tell 01:54:31 What I Struggle with 01:55:51 What Do People Want To Know About You? 01:59:24 Micromanaging 02:03:08 The Last Guest Question 02:05:30 Michael Franzese’s Closing Message to the Audience Follow Michael: YouTube - https://g2ul0.app.link/iOcSgJkX4Lb Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/dXbcRafX4Lb Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/pRuoUtiX4Lb Website - https://g2ul0.app.link/toKs7zS9cMb You can buy Michael’s book, ‘I'll Make You an Offer You Can't Refuse’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/JDOamnFm5Lb You can learn more about Franzese Wines, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/HaBZW6W9cMb You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb Follow me: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Linkedin Ads: https://www.linkedin.com/doac24 [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=S1JXKT7mf9A)

Source quotes

[0:00] Michael Franzese: 在黑手党里只有两个层次：你要么是一个敲诈吸血的敛财者（Racketeer），要么是一个纯粹的打手暴徒（Gangster）。 [25:14] Sonny Franzese: 如果局势所迫你必须杀人，你做得到吗？ [25:14] Michael Franzese: 爸，在特定情境下，我做得到。 [30:22] Michael Franzese: 如果他们能对 Sonny Franzese 这么做，他们就能对任何一个普通人这么做。 [36:15] 科隆博家族代理老板: 从今往后，一周7天、每天24小时，你必须随叫随到，为柯隆博家族效命。这意味着，哪怕你母亲病重垂危，你正守在她病床前，只要我们传唤你，你必须立刻离开母亲赶来报到。在这个世界上，家族就是你的第一顺位。直到我们认为你配得上这份‘荣誉’，我们才会通知你。 [52:02] 科隆博家族老板: 今晚，迈克尔·弗兰泽斯，你在‘我们的事业’（Cosa Nostra）中获得了新生。若你违背对这门生活的了解、背叛你的兄弟，你将横死并坠入地狱，如同你手中的圣人画像在烈火中化为灰烬。你接受吗？ [63:02] Michael Franzese: 在这个圈子里最可怕的事情之一就是，你一旦犯了错，领你走进那个房间的正是你最好的朋友，而你再也走不出来。 [68:32] Michael Franzese: 如果这种生活连父子骨肉都能离间，我们在这里到底还拥有什么？ [70:17] Jimmy: 我们遵循着江湖规矩，但我真的是你的朋友——你父亲刚才在里面根本没帮你说半句好话，反而是在害你。 [98:24] Michael Franzese: 你想关我就关我，只要给我打电话和探视的权利。随便你们怎么折磨我，我都能忍，但绝不能剥夺我的电话和探视。我也绝不会违反任何规定给你们借口。 [108:13] Sonny Franzese: 如果你当年听我的话，你现在早就是科隆博家族的老大（Boss）了。 [120:45] Michael Franzese: 做你最擅长的事，把剩下的事情授权出去（Do what I do best, delegate the rest）。

Source quotes

[18:50] Michael Franzese: If you're a made guy and I'm a made guy and we're arguing over a business issue and you're lying through your teeth, I can't call you a liar. If I call you a liar, I lose the argument automatically because I disrespected you. [25:43] Michael Franzese: If you ever had to kill anybody, could you do it? And I said, 'Dad, under the right circumstances, yeah, I could do it.' He said, 'That's the right answer.' [89:24] Retired federal agents / former mob associates: We know you got it 100%... we're just wondering when you're going to go get it. [89:24] Michael Franzese: If it's there, who knows if I'll ever get to use it again, you know? But we'll have to see. [92:47] Sonny Franzese: Please [92:47] Sonny Franzese: Thank you [92:47] Sonny Franzese: Excuse me [101:08] Michael Franzese: Well, it's my turn. [101:08] Michael Franzese: When I walked into that room that night, I thought I was going to die and yet I walked into the room... It wasn't heroic, it was robotic. I was so much a part of that life... I said, 'Well, it's my turn.' [108:24] Sonny Franzese: If you would have listened to me, you would have been the boss of the Colombo family. [118:20] Michael Franzese: Do what I do best, delegate the rest, and then hopefully you have the talent to motivate the people and get the most out of them. [124:41] Michael Franzese: You're not defined by your past all the time, and you can make changes in your life.

Original transcript

[0:00] in your time in the mafia what did you [0:01] witness I'm going to be honest with you [0:03] we're bringing in $910 million a week I [0:05] was arrested 18 times and I saw guys [0:07] that died for the wrong reasons but I'll [0:09] tell you one thing Steve you're not [0:10] going to want to hear this but it's the [0:12] truth Michael Fran one of the highest [0:15] earning mafia members turned [0:16] motivational speaker who is sharing the [0:18] ruthless lessons he learned about [0:20] business leadership and resilience so [0:23] there's two levels in that life you're [0:25] either a racketeer or you're a gangster [0:28] and I was a racketeer meaning was [0:30] elevating the family by making them [0:31] money I had 18 companies defrauding the [0:34] government out of tax bringing in $10 [0:35] million a week was living a liftime in a [0:37] jet playing at helicopter what was the [0:39] most cash you ever saw 40 50 million in [0:42] cash in cash now you can learn so much [0:44] from the mafia you know I give you an [0:46] example the art of negotiation this is a [0:48] tremendous technique to get what you [0:49] want I always want so here's what you [0:51] have to do now you may be making all [0:54] this money but we have rules and you [0:56] don't violate the rules because the [0:58] consequences are severe was a that had [1:00] to kill his father and then a very dear [1:02] friend of mine he did something that was [1:04] total violation of our life and he ended [1:06] up getting killed but the one thing that [1:07] really hurt me bad my dad had a powerful [1:10] position in the mafia and he betrayed me [1:13] that was rough Steve the thing is I've [1:15] done a lot of bad things in my life but [1:17] it's not the path that I wanted to take [1:19] I realized I got to get away from this [1:21] like you don't walk away from this life [1:23] we're not allowed to do that when does [1:25] it all come crashing down for you [1:32] this is a sentence I never thought I'd [1:33] say in my life um we've just hit 7 [1:36] million subscribers on YouTube and I [1:37] want to say a huge thank you to all of [1:39] you that show up here every Monday and [1:41] Thursday to watch our conversations um [1:44] from the bottom of my heart but also on [1:45] behalf of my team who you don't always [1:47] get to meet there's almost 50 people now [1:49] behind the dire of a CEO that work to [1:51] put this together so from all of us [1:53] thank you so much um we did a raffle [1:55] last month and we gave away prizes for [1:57] people that subscribed to the show up [1:58] until 7 million sub subscribers and you [2:00] guys love that raffle so much that we're [2:02] going to continue it so every single [2:05] month we're giving away money can't buy [2:06] prizes including meetings with me [2:08] invites to our events and ,000 gift [2:10] vouchers to anyone that subscribes to [2:12] the DI SE there's now more than 7 [2:14] million of you so if you make the [2:15] decision to subscribe today you can be [2:17] one of those lucky people thank you from [2:19] the bottom of my heart let's get to the [2:21] [Music] [2:24] conversation [2:26] Michael who were you [2:30] who was [2:31] I interesting question I [2:35] um you know I have to start with this [2:38] because you you just came right off the [2:40] bat and asked me a question [2:42] that I don't want to say stumped me but [2:45] maybe in a way did in the same way that [2:47] Jordan Peterson did I'll tell you why [2:50] Jordan said to me he said Michael you [2:53] spent 20 years in that life obviously [2:55] you did some things that were not good I [2:59] said yeah [3:00] he well how'd you do that and I said you [3:03] know Jordan when I had to do something [3:05] that I was uncomfortable with I kind of [3:08] stepped out of myself I believe took [3:11] care of business and then stepped back [3:14] in so he looked to me and he said well [3:17] how do you know who the real Michael is [3:18] the guy that stepped out or the guy [3:20] that's sitting here in front of me [3:22] now I that's a good question Jordan I [3:25] said [3:26] but uh I've been this guy for the last [3:30] almost 30 years so hopefully this is the [3:33] guy so you know who am I I mean I'm a [3:36] guy that [3:39] uh you know at a point in time in my [3:41] life I was I was on the right track love [3:44] my dad very much and as result of that I [3:46] followed him into this life to try to [3:48] help him out he had a 50-year prison [3:50] sentence and I thought the only way to [3:53] help him and he thought the same was to [3:55] really get on the street and do some of [3:57] the work that was necessary to try to [3:59] overturn a conviction that he got [4:01] wrongful conviction by the way so I [4:04] became that other guy that was able to I [4:06] was going to be a doctor I was my I was [4:08] a Premed student when my dad got this [4:10] 50-year [4:11] sentence so um but then I just I mean I [4:16] fell into that life and I I thought I [4:19] did a pretty good job while I was there [4:21] and I acclimated to it pretty pretty you [4:24] know [4:25] easily when someone thinks about you [4:28] joining the mafia they assume assume [4:29] that your home life must have been a [4:31] certain way you must have had a really [4:32] really rough up early upbringing is that [4:35] the case you know um I had a very strict [4:40] mother I mean she was 16 when I was [4:43] born and we had a very turbulent life [4:47] because of my father's involvement in [4:48] that life my father was an extremely [4:50] high-profile guy at that time major [4:53] Target of law enforcement so from the [4:56] time I was four or five years old my dad [4:58] was in and out of jail going on trial [5:02] and we lot of a lot of turbulence police [5:04] around us all the time so I witnessed [5:05] all that was part of that I don't know [5:08] if that contributed [5:11] to you know who I am now I I don't know [5:14] I [5:16] mean but it certainly I mean it had an [5:19] effect on me at that point in time I [5:21] hated the police I hated the government [5:22] I hated anything about law enforcement [5:24] because I saw them as the enemy the way [5:26] they you know were harassing my dad [5:28] harassing my family at least in my view [5:30] at that point so it did shape you know [5:33] my my world view of those people at that [5:36] time and they were parked outside your [5:38] house I read they uh we had six or seven [5:41] different agencies parked around our [5:43] house and every time we left there was a [5:46] parade of law enforcement Vehicles [5:47] following us I mean it was that severe [5:50] with my dad uh I've never seen anything [5:53] like that quite honestly you know other [5:54] people have had surveillance but I guess [5:56] because I grew up and I witnessed I was [5:58] part of it but it was so intense with [6:00] him it really was did you know why they [6:02] were there and did you know what your [6:03] dad was doing you know it was hard not [6:06] to although he never sat down with me [6:08] and said to me this is what I'm all [6:10] about it was B basically from other [6:12] people from what I read and what I [6:14] witnessed um so yeah I mean I knew what [6:17] he was about but I thought it was a good [6:18] thing you know CU you know his his his [6:22] friends came to the house to me they [6:24] were like Uncle Joe Uncle this Uncle [6:26] that good people you know we'd go out [6:27] together so I thought it was a good good [6:29] thing at that time what was he about my [6:33] dad yeah yeah very charismatic guy you [6:37] know a good father I mean he wanted the [6:40] best for me he didn't want me in this [6:41] life originally wanted me to go to [6:43] school be a doctor get an education stay [6:45] off the street that was his initial [6:49] desire for [6:50] me um he was a good husband to my mother [6:53] I thought at that time but you know he [6:56] had that other side of him that once or [6:58] twice growing up up I kind of witnessed [7:00] and I saw there was something else you [7:02] know with it what did you witness you [7:06] know I'll never forget uh it was really [7:08] two things that that happened I was he [7:11] was taking me up my my dad was involved [7:13] in the music business so he was taking [7:14] me into Manhattan to meet with some of [7:16] the people you know just his daily work [7:19] and along the way he had to stop and he [7:21] had to meet with somebody and I was in [7:24] the car and two of his guys that I knew [7:26] very well with with my dad they were [7:28] talking to this guy in a convers ation [7:29] got very heated and I see my dad really [7:32] angry never saw him like that before and [7:35] uh Steve I'm I'm not kidding at least [7:37] this was a kid's impression I was young [7:39] he just picked that guy up by like his [7:41] throat and had him up against the wall [7:43] and I saw the guy was horror strick and [7:45] I I didn't I never saw my dad like that [7:47] before cuz he didn't he didn't hit us or [7:50] anything as kids you know had brothers [7:51] and sisters he didn't treat us that my [7:53] mom was tough my mom forget it she [7:55] didn't spare the Rob but my my dad was [7:57] not so to see him like that I said wow [8:00] there is really another side of him you [8:02] know Street side of him you said there [8:04] was another experience another [8:06] experience this was it was kind of funny [8:08] but in a way it wasn't we had a [8:10] carpenter that was working in our house [8:12] and he was kind of a his name was S I [8:14] never forget a big guy huge guy and uh [8:17] he would never finish anything on time [8:19] the carpentry my dad would hire him [8:21] because he probably didn't have to pay [8:22] him much right and my mom was always on [8:26] him you know guy that comes he don't [8:28] finish the job and all that and came to [8:30] the house once and my dad just just went [8:32] off on him punched him like in the house [8:34] and knocked the guy out you know in [8:36] front of all of us we were kind of [8:38] surprised but he said don't blame me [8:40] your mother's nagging me too much I [8:42] can't take it you know it was one of [8:43] those things so those as a young person [8:46] those were the two things that I really [8:47] witnessed with him those were Clues [8:50] those were clues of something else those [8:52] were a window into his other life mhm [8:56] and what was his other life what was the [8:58] reality of his other life as you've come [9:00] to understand it well another thing and [9:02] this this it's amazing how you can [9:04] remember things sometimes at a young age [9:06] but you can't really put it together I I [9:09] have to go back the first real incident [9:11] that I had is um I was probably four [9:14] years old and we were living in Brooklyn [9:17] but my dad had moved us out me and my [9:19] mom to Long Island where my grandparents [9:21] were we were living in their house for a [9:23] while and I didn't see my dad for a [9:25] couple of days he's gone and then one [9:28] morning he comes in and my dad had a [9:30] heavy beard he hadn't [9:32] shaved and uh his right-hand man was [9:35] just standing out on the porch kind of [9:37] standing guard and my dad came in hugged [9:39] my mother my mother was a little upset [9:41] she was crying then he came over and [9:43] hugged me I was sitting on the step and [9:45] my grandmother's house I'm saying what [9:47] this what was this all about he was [9:49] there for about a half an hour and then [9:51] he left well what I didn't find out till [9:54] later on our family the Columbo family [9:56] was at War at that point and so my dad [9:59] was not at home it's kind of dangerous [10:01] to be at home and you know it lasted for [10:03] a while and I didn't know what that [10:06] meant at that time you know it's you you [10:09] look back and you put these things [10:11] together later [10:12] on so really I would say it was those [10:14] three incidents but look my dad was a [10:17] you know he was a a captain in that life [10:19] and then an under boss in that life so [10:21] he had a very high position powerful [10:22] position a lot of people around him a [10:24] lot of guys who were subordinate to him [10:27] and uh you know he was big time in that [10:29] life he was a captain and an under boss [10:32] yeah I have been trying to understand [10:35] the structure of a mafia [10:37] family so I printed off this to try and [10:40] understand it from what I from what I [10:41] could see and I'll put this on the [10:42] screen for anyone that's interested and [10:43] pin it below is that is that somewhat [10:46] accurate in terms of the structure of a [10:49] Mafia Family yeah yeah that's [10:53] it these are uh this is the true [10:56] rankings and that's the uh I mean [10:59] there's a boss and an under under boss [11:01] and the consiliary is kind of an advisor [11:03] to the boss and then you have the compor [11:06] Jes is the real term for it or capos and [11:10] they are uh they're kind of the street [11:12] bosses they're in elevated position and [11:14] then you have the soldiers which is the [11:16] first official rank when you get made [11:18] the term is made the night that you take [11:21] the oath and you become an official [11:23] member of that life your rank as a [11:26] soldier and um and the associates are [11:29] guys that are around us but never taking [11:31] the oath they're not full-fledged [11:33] members they're just Associates so from [11:35] the bottom up the bottom level is the [11:37] associates I'm going to repeat this back [11:39] to you to see make sure I've got it um [11:41] and they're not they haven't taken the [11:42] Earth so they've not become what you [11:43] call made men correct the soldiers are [11:47] the the first level that have taken the [11:48] oath correct um and they report into [11:51] capos capos and the capos reporting the [11:54] under boss capos can go right to the [11:56] boss also yeah and then then there's the [11:59] boss above the under boss yes he's the [12:02] boss he's the official ruler of the [12:04] family and your dad became an an under [12:07] boss under boss yes so he was one below [12:10] the the boss yes and you mentioned your [12:12] family had a certain name what was that [12:14] name Columbo Columbo yeah what is the [12:17] because I think I need to understand the [12:18] kind of history of the mafia to [12:19] understand what Columbo is yes well you [12:23] know originated in Italy obviously [12:26] Sicily and um it was originally just a a [12:30] group in Italy that baned together to [12:32] protect their towns from Marauders that [12:35] were coming in and and you know um doing [12:37] damage in the in the towns and the [12:40] cities and eventually for some reason [12:43] they started becoming a little bit of a [12:44] criminal you know body and then they [12:48] migrated many of them to New York you [12:50] know back in 1901 190 I think the [12:53] earliest in the late late 19 I think it [12:56] was maybe in 1885 or something like that [13:00] was when they first started coming here [13:01] to the United States came legally went [13:03] through Ellis Island and came in [13:05] Legally and originally the guys that [13:08] came in they were just kind of praying [13:10] on their own people in in the cities [13:13] that you know they uh they got [13:15] into and you know I can go through all [13:18] of this but uh you go back to the days [13:20] of Al Capone I'm sure you know you've [13:22] heard that name uh who originally came [13:25] from Brooklyn then went out to [13:27] Chicago and I I always say this they [13:30] were obviously involved in criminal [13:32] activity you know loan shocking lending [13:34] money at usurious rates extorting some [13:37] of the shop owners you know for [13:39] protection getting money out of them a [13:41] little bit of the gambling business but [13:43] what really happened I always say this [13:46] it was the government the United States [13:47] government that made the mafia strong in [13:50] the United States and when did they do [13:52] that with [13:54] prohibition because it was then that the [13:56] guy re the guys realized hey people want [13:59] this they want to drink the government [14:01] is uh you know Banning it but we're [14:03] going to allow them to have to have it [14:06] and so they started to create they got [14:08] into the illegal booze business [14:11] basically and to give you the extent of [14:13] that in New York state alone there were [14:16] 36,000 speak easys which were illegal [14:19] bars at the time 36,000 in New York [14:21] alone and the mafia controlled all of [14:24] them and people wanted it and they gave [14:26] it to them and um it was extremely [14:30] lucrative I mean you're talking you know [14:32] in today's money billions of dollars and [14:35] that's what started to create this [14:37] organization and then in the 40s lucky [14:40] luchano who again came from uh from [14:43] Italy um saw that a lot of the guys were [14:46] starting to war among each other it was [14:48] always power and control and money and [14:50] he said we're not going to exist we're [14:52] not going to survive like this we have [14:53] to become an organization a business and [14:57] he's the one that created the Mafia [14:59] commission and split it up into families [15:03] actually at that time there were nine [15:04] families Nationwide and they were bosses [15:08] of each family and that's how this whole [15:10] structure came about it was in the 40s [15:12] was actually him Myer Lansky who played [15:15] a significant role even though maril [15:17] Lansky was not a maid guy because he was [15:19] Jewish and you have to be of Italian [15:21] descent but he was a right-hand man um [15:25] to Lucky Lano and that's when the mafia [15:28] really came to could be here in the [15:29] United States so the mafia was this one [15:33] organization and then lucky luchano did [15:35] you say yes he split it into lots of [15:37] families correct were those families [15:40] actually related by blood in any way no [15:43] was it just when you say split it into [15:44] families was he did he essentially just [15:46] appoint lots of CEOs to run different [15:48] parts of the same organization yeah it [15:50] was called a family I mean you could [15:51] have called it a group or whatever you [15:54] wanted to call it but we we called it [15:56] families and uh no they weren't [15:58] necessarily [15:59] related um and somebody emerged in that [16:03] group as the top guy and he officially [16:05] appointed them as the [16:07] boss and in order to have a seat on the [16:10] commission which was the ruling body of [16:12] all of these families Nationwide you had [16:14] to be the boss or representative of your [16:16] family that the boss designated and you [16:19] can then sit on the commission and the [16:21] commission allegedly um created policy [16:24] for all of the families Nationwide and [16:27] that's how it worked and allegedly [16:30] allegedly because you know I I got to [16:33] understand that the commission was like [16:34] the United Nations sounds good you know [16:37] and they they're going to create policy [16:39] but really you can't tell a boss of his [16:41] own family what to do he has total [16:44] autonomy so it sounded good and [16:47] sometimes the commission will make a [16:49] policy that people will respect but if [16:51] the boss of that family doesn't want to [16:53] they don't have to and how big were the [16:56] families in New York we had five [16:58] families and in each of the uh total [17:01] total made guys in those families was [17:04] about 750 guys you know the Gambino [17:08] family had about 250 guys and this is [17:10] through my era Genevie family 250 guys [17:14] Bano family Columbo family lucases we [17:17] had about aund and some OD each we were [17:19] the smaller families uh but you had [17:21] total about 750 made men guys that [17:24] actually took the oath and then we had a [17:26] lot of Associates you know hundreds so [17:29] we had a we had a big presence [17:31] especially in New York and did the [17:33] families fight each other even in New [17:34] York were there arguments amongst [17:36] families prior to the 40s yes when the [17:40] commission was created yes they would go [17:42] to war among each other once uh that [17:45] commission was created there was no more [17:47] Wars among the families anytime there [17:49] was a war it was a Civil War and it was [17:52] always a war for power our family the [17:54] Columbo family we were one of the more [17:56] violent Waring families we had three [17:58] Wars during my lifetime in the columbos [18:01] and it was always for power who wanted [18:02] to be the boss you don't have elections [18:04] somebody wants to take over it's a power [18:07] struggle and however it turns out it [18:08] turns out within the family within the [18:11] family now other families could say okay [18:14] we throw our support behind you but not [18:16] with Manpower it's you know whoever [18:18] you're rooting for at that point but um [18:21] no things were solved you know once the [18:23] commission came into place and the [18:25] family things were solved uh amicably [18:27] usually you know peacefully but there [18:30] was always a lot of disagreements there [18:32] was a lot of sitd downs you know to [18:34] straighten things out we had a lot of [18:37] that you know I was very active in that [18:39] life and I was going to sit down every [18:40] other day you know trying to resolve [18:42] something either one of my crazy guys [18:44] got in trouble it was a business [18:46] situation uh it was a lot of that what [18:49] is a sit down I was reading about this [18:52] uh in your work and I I found it quite [18:54] interesting because I think sometimes in [18:55] business as a CEO maybe we should [18:58] emulate this idea of having a sit down [18:59] we have a lot of meetings and a lot of [19:01] emails and stuff like that but seems [19:03] like you have a pure way of dealing with [19:04] things we do a sit down was the way we [19:06] resolved everything everything we sat [19:09] down they were structured when I say [19:11] structured you had normally the boss was [19:14] in control of that it was a serious one [19:17] rather than two captains or copos [19:18] getting together you had to bring the [19:20] boss in uh he was the final rule what he [19:24] says goes like it or not and there was [19:26] rules if you're a ma guy and I'm a made [19:29] guy and we're arguing over business uh [19:32] issue and you're lying through your [19:34] teeth I can't call you a liar if I call [19:36] you a liar I lose the argument [19:38] automatically because I disrespected you [19:42] you have to be respectful the meetings [19:44] so if a guy's lying you got to figure [19:45] out how to let the boss understand that [19:47] without calling him a liar and then at [19:50] the end of this um you know you uh [19:53] whatever decision the boss makes that's [19:55] it there's no appeals there's no nothing [19:58] shake hands get up and you leave and [20:00] that's the final ruling so you mentioned [20:02] this I wrote a book uh was actually a [20:04] business book I'll make you an offer you [20:05] can't refuse hoer Collins was the [20:07] publisher after they heard about that [20:09] they said we're not having any more [20:11] meetings from now on they're all sit [20:13] Downs he said that's it you know because [20:15] it was a lot more efficient what kind of [20:17] things would get resolved in a in a sit [20:19] down normally business disputes um and [20:23] then sometimes quite honestly you know [20:26] you know look that's a a life serious [20:29] consequences and if somebody violated [20:32] policy made a mistake to the point where [20:34] he was going to pay for it seriously you [20:36] had to sit down to decide his fate [20:39] basically people speaking for him people [20:42] speaking against him and then the boss [20:43] would make the final ruling so that [20:46] could be you know a serious sit down [20:49] could be a business matter so if in the [20:51] case of deciding someone's fate would [20:54] the person you were deciding their fate [20:56] be would they be sat there no no so it' [20:59] be someone on basically speaking yes on [21:03] behalf of one side of that decision [21:05] correct things like whether this person [21:07] should live correct have have you ever [21:10] been in a sit down where people were [21:11] discussing if someone should live and [21:14] you've seen it go both ways [21:17] yes your father got sent to prison when [21:20] you were 19 yeah well he finally he was [21:23] in and out before that but he started to [21:26] do uh time on that 50-year prison since [21:29] I was [21:31] 19 how did that change your [21:34] life you through everything I read you [21:37] really loved this man I loved him he's a [21:40] good dad and he he wanted the best for [21:42] me at that point and he taught me great [21:45] things I mean he he really did and you [21:48] know the one advantage I had in my life [21:50] and again taught to me by my dad he [21:52] always said Son be a good listener [21:55] listen before you speak you know be [21:58] careful don't you know don't don't speak [22:00] out of turn he always told me to be a [22:02] good listener so the person I listened [22:04] to the most was him and he taught me [22:07] well in that regard so I had a lot of [22:09] love and respect for my dad and um when [22:12] he went away it was devastating because [22:14] he was 50 years old when he went into [22:16] prison fig he had 50 on top of that he'd [22:18] never come out of prison alive that's [22:19] what we thought you know so it was it [22:22] was uh it was tough I can almost still [22:26] see the emotion in you when you talk [22:27] about him going away to prison yeah it [22:31] was a defining moment in my life because [22:35] you know I I realized things were going [22:36] to dramatically change I mean I was the [22:39] oldest with my mom had three younger [22:41] brothers and [22:42] sisters and um I knew I had to play a [22:45] role in that you know and and taking [22:47] care of my mom because my dad when he [22:49] went away he said listen I'm entrusting [22:51] the family to you he said you know be a [22:54] good son and take care of your brothers [22:57] and sisters take care of your mother so [22:59] I mean I had that [23:00] responsibility um and I was doing that [23:03] anyway because during many of my dad's [23:05] trials my mom would go and I would one [23:07] time he was you know tried couple [23:10] hundred miles away from us they moved [23:11] the venue to Albany New York and I'm in [23:14] Long Island so my mom would be away for [23:16] three or four days at a time with my dad [23:18] I'd be watching the kids and so I mean I [23:20] took on that rule early on but then when [23:22] he went away it became a lot more you [23:25] know um serious [23:30] your life when he went away you were [23:31] studying to be a doctor be a doctor [23:35] yeah it's hard to imagine the sort of [23:37] turn of turn of events that happen in [23:40] your life at that point when you're [23:41] studying to be a doctor your dad goes to [23:42] prison and it ends up changing the [23:44] trajectory of your life it ends up [23:46] swaying you towards the life he had just [23:49] come from and you say that he was [23:51] wrongly [23:52] imprisoned my dad was framed on that [23:54] case framed yeah 100% I'll take it to my [23:56] grave Steve he was uh he was supposedly [24:01] uh masterminding a nationwide string of [24:04] bank [24:05] robberies and um you know when my my dad [24:09] first went away I I I was with him in [24:11] the visiting room we were in the jail [24:15] and I looked at him I said Dad bank [24:17] robbery and he looked at me and he said [24:19] son I'm innocent I'm not a bank robber I [24:21] didn't order these bank robberies she [24:23] said I was framed government framed me [24:25] my dad had never lied to me to that [24:27] point [24:28] and he saidwe got to work to overturn [24:30] this conviction and why did I believe [24:33] first of all he never lied to me so I [24:34] believed it but the four witnesses that [24:37] testified against him were all drug [24:39] addicts my dad my entire life preached [24:42] against drugs to me he used to make up [24:45] stories Parables to to show me the [24:49] dangers of drugs all of us though all [24:51] the kids so that we would never get [24:53] involved he hated anything to do with [24:55] drugs always spoke about it so I I never [24:57] saw my dad as a hypoc in that regard he [24:59] wouldn't associate with these people no [25:01] let do bank robberies with them so it [25:03] made it very real and so it angered me [25:06] in some ways but it motivated me to say [25:09] you know what I can't let my dad die in [25:11] here you know and then at the same time [25:14] I was getting very close to Joe Columbo [25:16] who was the boss of our family Columbo [25:18] family and uh he kind of took me under [25:20] his wing because you know he uh [25:22] obviously my dad was his under [25:25] boss and I started to meet a lot more of [25:27] my dad dad's friends and they would say [25:29] to me mikee what are you doing going to [25:30] school if you don't help your father out [25:32] he's going to die in prison so I was [25:34] very it affected me in a big way I said [25:37] I can't let that happen and even though [25:40] my dad did not want me involved in the [25:42] life but I went to visit him in the [25:43] visiting room lorth Penitentiary and I [25:45] said Dad I'm not going to school anymore [25:46] if I don't help you out you're going to [25:47] die in here and we kind of argued about [25:50] it because he he was disappointed he [25:52] didn't want that for me he knew the life [25:54] was tough he didn't want it for me he [25:56] want it for any of his kids and uh but I [25:59] was pretty headstrong as a kid and I [26:01] said Dad My Mind Is Made Up I lost [26:02] interest in school I'm not going to go I [26:04] said it's it you're wasting your breath [26:07] and basically he looked at me Steve and [26:08] you know and and I don't ever want to be [26:11] offensive to the audience but he looked [26:12] at me and he said okay but if you're [26:13] going to be on the street then I want [26:15] you on the street the right way in his [26:17] mind the right way was to become a [26:19] member of his life so he looked at me [26:20] and he said I got to ask you a question [26:22] very serious I said go ahead he said ' [26:25] if you ever had to kill anybody could [26:27] you do it [26:29] and I said dad under the right [26:30] circumstances yeah I could do it he said [26:32] ' that's the right answer he said to me [26:35] then he looked at me and he said' go [26:36] home somebody's going to be in touch [26:37] with you do what you told that's all he [26:40] said he didn't break it down he didn't [26:42] said this is what's required of you [26:44] nothing because you know Steve that's a [26:46] secret life you're not supposed to talk [26:48] about that life with anybody outside of [26:50] it my dad wouldn't violate that policy [26:52] even with me his own son he just figured [26:54] okay kids got it in them go home and do [26:56] what you're told and I didn't question [26:59] him I said okay Dad this is what you [27:01] want just point me in the right [27:02] direction I mean that's the kind of bond [27:04] that we had together at that point and [27:07] uh and I left there and that's how [27:08] things started for me when you answered [27:10] that question your dad asked you were [27:12] you telling the truth yeah I mean [27:16] obviously I'd never been in that [27:17] situation but I thought about it and I [27:20] don't I don't remember what rolled [27:21] through my mind at that point did I say [27:24] to myself well this is the answer my dad [27:26] wants or did I say to myself yeah I [27:29] could really do it as I sit here now all [27:31] these years later I can't honestly [27:33] answer [27:34] that um but the answer was [27:38] yes he didn't um he didn't ever try and [27:41] stop you or did he did he ever try and [27:45] persuade you out of join joining the [27:47] mafia no I mean prior to that point [27:51] that's not what he wanted for me but [27:53] once I made up my mind I think there was [27:55] a feeling of Pride or joy in my dad I [27:58] kind of seen it in him and that you know [28:01] once I did become a maid guy he was he [28:03] was overjoyed he was [28:05] thrilled how did he or anyone else think [28:08] that you joining the mafia would help [28:10] him simple needed money for [28:13] attorneys I had kind of a business head [28:15] my dad knew that we needed to track down [28:18] Witnesses and people that were involved [28:20] in the case that could you know say this [28:22] was a frame up and that's exactly what I [28:24] did I mean I went after all of these [28:26] Witnesses uh to try to find them and get [28:29] them to recant that testimony I worked [28:31] with the lawyers as a result of that and [28:33] eventually did get you know three of the [28:35] witnesses to recant their testimony gave [28:38] them lie detective test proved they lied [28:40] at the trial that the FBI had gone along [28:42] with the story that they met up because [28:44] my father was such a they wanted him so [28:46] bad they really did and if you go back [28:49] to the 60s and you look at the amount of [28:51] media attention he had you know you [28:53] wouldn't believe it but um so the FBI at [28:56] that time I believe was licit in in this [28:59] Frame up because they might have known [29:02] that these guys were lying one of the [29:04] one of the witnesses told me um that [29:07] when they agreed to cooperate with the [29:10] government they were going to put these [29:13] bank robberies or to make the Mastermind [29:15] somebody else and they actually did guy [29:18] by name of Tony pcei they said well he [29:19] was the original guy that told us how to [29:22] do these bank robberies and then when [29:24] the FBI told him this came right from [29:26] the witness the FBI told him well that C [29:28] you some time off but I ain't going to [29:29] go that far we don't care about Tony [29:31] polii a guy like Sunny Frances that [29:33] would matter and then they went and they [29:36] concocted this story because Steve the [29:38] thing is they committed all the bank [29:40] robberies every one of them and they [29:43] they described it in great detail at the [29:44] trial and all they said was that Sunny [29:48] Frances ordered them at a meeting that [29:50] we had once at the Q motor [29:52] in and um why did they pick the night [29:55] for the meeting because my dad was under [29:57] constant surveillance [29:59] and the FBI told them what day my dad [30:02] would be available to that wouldn't have [30:05] an alibi he probably sitting at home [30:07] wouldn't have an alibi to say that he [30:09] wasn't at that meeting so they [30:11] structured this whole thing and many [30:13] people afterwards have said Sunny would [30:15] never associate with these type of guys [30:17] so you know all those things came [30:20] together and and I really like I said [30:22] look I went to Crime I went to jail for [30:23] a crime I was guilty of pled guilty did [30:25] my time uh but this particular ular [30:28] crime that my dad did I'd take it to my [30:29] grave he he was not he was no bank [30:32] robber was your dad a good [30:35] guy I thought so I mean yeah listen [30:38] people liked him my dad was very [30:40] well-liked objectively as you sit here [30:43] today do you think he was a net positive [30:45] listen my D look I'm going to tell you [30:47] this you know the word on the street [30:49] from the FBI my dad was involved in 3035 [30:53] murders now he never admitted that to me [30:56] about anyone in particular he was [30:58] indicted for one murder and he was [31:00] acquitted in that case found not guilty [31:03] but my dad was he was a tough guy [31:05] there's no question so if he was [31:09] involved in 35 matters as the FBI [31:12] suggest do you think he was better off [31:14] behind [31:15] bars what I'm getting at here really is [31:17] if they framed him was it a net benefit [31:20] to society that they framed [31:22] him well you know Steve let me let me I [31:26] know there's going to be a tough one but [31:27] let me let me tell you how I [31:31] think the the the right and just side of [31:34] me the legally just side of me says that [31:37] the government is never allowed to break [31:40] the law to uphold the law because if you [31:43] allow that to happen then it falls into [31:45] monarchy and people are not protected [31:48] because if they do it against Sunny [31:49] Frances they can do it against anybody [31:51] so I believe strictly the government has [31:54] enough tools and weapons to get people [31:56] the right way uh and they do 96 97% of [32:00] the time they shouldn't be allowed to [32:02] violate the law to go after a criminal [32:04] that's my my feeling on it now another [32:08] thing is this people think when we take [32:10] an oath the oath of omera it's an oath [32:13] to stay silent it's not an old to lie [32:15] steal cheat and kill does that happen as [32:18] part of that light yes but we're told [32:21] straight out now try to understand the [32:23] thinking here you come into that life [32:25] you told us straight out we have rules [32:28] you don't ever violate another man's [32:30] wife daughter sister girl never that'll [32:33] cause you to die during my era we [32:36] weren't allowed to deal with drugs you [32:38] deal with drugs you get caught you die [32:41] you maybe do some other things you're [32:42] not honest with people you disrespect [32:44] somebody you hit another ma guy you [32:47] die now we understand that and they tell [32:51] you your best friend may be the one that [32:53] pulls the trigger because the life comes [32:55] before anything that's it you know don't [32:58] violate the rules that's how we maintain [32:59] control in this life that's how we [33:01] existed for a 100 years and that's how [33:03] it's going to stay so now you're saying [33:06] okay we all agreed to this we all [33:09] admitted it if one of us decides to [33:12] violate the policy of the law and we get [33:15] caught well we understand the [33:17] consequences so that's how I looked at [33:20] it and that's how I Justified it now [33:23] does that say you can go out and start [33:24] to do random killings no if the boss [33:28] tells you to go kill somebody because he [33:30] doesn't like him and you do it that's [33:32] not right but if we kill our own and you [33:35] know you hear a lot of times Well we [33:37] only kill our own well we don't only [33:39] kill our own but if we only kill our own [33:42] knowing that we made that choice well [33:44] then okay I I kind of I kind of get it [33:47] in a way even though murder is murder [33:49] and it's a crime and it's sinful and I [33:51] understand that but that's how you [33:53] justify it but it wasn't the case that [33:55] you only killed your own [33:58] well for some of us it was and for [34:00] others it was not and I've seen both [34:03] sides of that you've never talked [34:06] about having to kill someone have you no [34:10] why is [34:11] that it's it's a it's just not a subject [34:15] I care to get into you know I uh [34:20] listen I like to be as honest as I [34:23] possibly can because I am a Christian [34:25] and you don't want to lie to people [34:28] but it's not something I want to talk [34:31] about I was wondering because when I [34:33] when I read that I thought maybe it's [34:34] because you know there's some might be [34:36] legal retribution maybe it's because you [34:39] know it's not nice for people to hear [34:41] about maybe it's because there's still [34:43] some kind of like rule where you can't [34:45] say anything but I wondered why maybe [34:48] it's all of the above I don't know well [34:50] you know Steve look there guys there's a [34:52] lot of guys on the street now and if you [34:54] go on YouTube You'll see a number of [34:55] them and they've admitted to murder that [34:57] they were involved in these are made [34:59] guys and they've admitted to it and many [35:01] of them had struck a deal with the [35:03] government they had immunity for the [35:05] crimes they committed even murder I mean [35:07] the government give you immunity for [35:08] murder if you want to uh if they want [35:11] you to cooperate and help them out it's [35:13] amazing but they'll do it and so they [35:16] have immunity they could talk about [35:17] their crimes I didn't cooperate to that [35:19] level at all I don't have immunity for [35:21] anything that I've done in the past you [35:24] know and listen you know our laws here [35:26] in the United States have you were [35:27] standing next to somebody when they [35:29] murdered somebody else you're there you [35:31] could you could be charged for murder [35:32] the same way to them so you know I'm [35:35] saying I have a was in that position I'm [35:37] just saying that's the law so you know [35:39] why talk about it number one and number [35:41] two murder is ugly you know it's it's [35:45] ugly and you don't ever want to talk [35:47] about it I mean I don't if I were to do [35:50] something like that I wouldn't be proud [35:51] of it I'm not trying to throw my chest [35:54] out and say hey look what I could do [35:56] guys go to war they kill people all all [35:57] the time you know in defense of our [35:59] country or defense of so I mean it's not [36:02] like oh God you know nobody I mean [36:06] murder happens every single day MH who [36:08] wants to talk about it some people do I [36:11] know not [36:13] me you got closer to the mafia when your [36:15] father was sent down and this was the [36:18] point where you decided not to go to [36:19] school the boss of the Columbo family [36:23] yes brings you close brings you under [36:24] his wing um do do you have to do some [36:27] kind of training or something to join [36:28] the MAF is there any oh you do oh yeah [36:31] well when you commit here's what [36:33] happened I leave there a captain in a [36:35] family picked me up and took me to see [36:37] the boss now unfortunately Joe Columbo [36:39] was assassinated he was shot seriously [36:42] wounded he lingered for about seven [36:44] years and then he died as a result of [36:45] these wounds so a new boss took over and [36:48] he's he's passed away now and I sat with [36:50] him this was about two weeks after my [36:52] father sent word downtown that he was [36:54] proposing me to be part of that life [36:56] because you can't just go up to somebody [36:58] say I'd like to join somebody has to [37:00] propose you vouch for you say you have [37:02] what it takes there's a lot of nepotism [37:04] in that life a lot of fathers brought [37:06] their sons in their nephews whatever so [37:08] in my case it was my dad that proposed [37:10] me and so I sat with the boss and he [37:13] said to me here's the deal you want to [37:15] become a member of our life your father [37:17] sent the message is that true and I said [37:19] yes he well here's the deal from now on [37:22] 24 hours a day seven days a week you're [37:24] on call to serve this family the Columbo [37:26] family that means if your mother is sick [37:29] and she's dying you're at her bedside we [37:32] call you to service you leave your [37:34] mother you come and serve us from now on [37:36] we're number one in your life before [37:37] anything and everything when and if we [37:39] feel you've deserved this privilege this [37:41] honor to become a member will let you [37:43] know that's it and do you accept that I [37:46] said yes I do and so over the next two [37:49] and a half years I was in like a recruit [37:51] pledge period where I had to do anything [37:53] and everything I was told to do prove [37:55] myself worthy could have been something [37:57] very menial a lot of discipline in that [38:00] life a lot of authority a lot of alleged [38:02] respect you had a meeting at 8:00 you [38:04] weren't there at 7:30 you were late can [38:06] never be late in that life I don't care [38:08] what the situation is you had a meeting [38:10] at at 8:00 if there was traffic and you [38:12] were concern come the night before and [38:13] sleep in the car can never be late no [38:16] excuses you know Drive the boss to a [38:18] meeting sit in the car 3 four five hours [38:21] got forbid you leave you go to the [38:23] restroom get a newspaper he comes out [38:24] you're not there oh my gosh we could [38:27] have had trouble you you were the [38:28] getaway driver you weren't there I know [38:30] I did that once and I paid the price you [38:32] know for it that's very serious stuff [38:34] you paid the price well paid the price [38:36] in other words I got a real good tongue [38:38] lashing I'll tell you you know um you [38:40] know just stuff like that they kind of [38:42] put you on the shelf for two weeks you [38:43] know to make you understand the [38:45] seriousness of what you did so you never [38:47] do it again you never repeat your [38:49] mistakes in that life if you're smart [38:51] you want to if you want to number one [38:53] want to survive and number two you want [38:54] to move up you never repeat your [38:56] mistakes so so you know things like that [38:58] and then look I'm going to be honest [39:00] with you you know as as honest as I [39:01] possibly can it's a violent life at [39:03] times if you're part of the life in some [39:06] shape or form you're part of the [39:08] violence and uh if anybody tells you [39:10] differently they're either not being [39:11] honest or they weren't a made member of [39:12] that life and that's just how it goes [39:15] why' you say that because you said you [39:17] said demial and then you said it's a [39:19] violent life are you are you saying that [39:21] in that sort of probationary two years [39:24] you had to do both of those things you [39:26] had to be involved in the viol and do [39:27] the menal stuff let's put it this way [39:29] they got to have enough faith in you [39:31] that you can be capable of doing [39:34] whatever it is they tell you to [39:36] do they have to they have to understand [39:39] that and feel that because if they don't [39:40] feel that you're not going anywhere that [39:43] that's it so during that time you're [39:46] going to be [39:47] tested and you were tested yeah when [39:51] when they made you pledge that if your [39:53] mother was dying and you were at her [39:54] bedside and they called you and asked [39:56] you to do something you'd leave [39:58] would you have left if your mother was [40:00] dying back then I mean I might have I [40:02] mean you know I was a I was a play by [40:04] the rule guy you know I [40:07] uh you know I I was very fortunate that [40:10] I had a great teacher in my dad he was a [40:13] student and master of the life and so [40:16] and I was like a sponge I absorbed [40:18] whatever my dad told me I listened and [40:21] you know some of the things that he told [40:22] me were were right so I might have at [40:25] the time I'm going to be honest with you [40:27] I mean I I don't know it it it would [40:29] have to depend on what's happening at [40:31] that moment but you know I was so [40:33] indoctrinated into that life at some [40:35] point um it's who I [40:37] was sounds a bit like a [40:40] cult in a way it's cult-like I guess you [40:44] know in a way I mean we didn't do silly [40:46] things you know we wouldn't have rituals [40:48] and ceremonies other than that that one [40:51] yeah other than that one nothing after [40:53] that but what did it teach you about [40:57] people skills because you're around [41:00] these bosses these very talented men [41:03] you're seeing how they conduct [41:04] themselves do business Influence People [41:06] win friends what what did that phase of [41:09] your life teach you about how to be a [41:12] motivator SL manipulator of people yeah [41:15] it taught me well I think I got it you [41:17] know there's kind of two levels in that [41:20] life you're either a [41:23] racketeer or you're a gangster what's [41:26] the difference I'll tell you the [41:26] difference [41:28] a gangster is a guy that really doesn't [41:31] know how to use that life to benefit him [41:34] in [41:35] business so he's more of a I don't want [41:38] to say tough guy I don't want to say the [41:39] term but he's more of a guy that hey we [41:41] had something done this is the guy send [41:43] him out let him do it because you got to [41:44] earn your keep in that [41:46] life we in the Columbo family had 115 [41:49] maid guys at that time out of of the 115 [41:52] 20 of us were really earning money and [41:55] supporting the family in some way and [41:57] and really elevating the family we were [42:01] racketeers now a gangster could never [42:03] really be a racketeer he just doesn't [42:04] know how but a racketeer has to be a [42:07] gangster also because you're going to be [42:08] called upon not as much as this guy but [42:11] when you're called upon you got to do it [42:13] so you know I was more of a [42:16] racketeer and as a result of that I was [42:20] constantly in business disputes and [42:22] sitting down with other guys and you [42:24] have to learn you know how to negotiate [42:27] I mean I learned the art of negotiation [42:29] at these sit Downs you know learned how [42:31] to try to you know really before I walk [42:34] into a meeting with somebody number one [42:37] try to know the personality of that [42:38] person know if there's a fallback [42:41] position if I'm not winning what I'll [42:43] accept and so I had to prepare myself [42:45] for these meetings because unprepared [42:47] you know they'll chew you up because a [42:49] lot of these old time was were very [42:51] skillful and believe me you could be [42:53] 100% right and end up wrong and they'll [42:55] put you in a in a trap so you really had [42:57] to know what you were doing and so my [42:59] people skills in that regard as far as [43:02] negotiating and identifying a true [43:05] leader um were really hone to a a you [43:09] know a high degree because I came out on [43:12] top many many times what are the the [43:15] principles of in your view of a good [43:17] sell or a good negotiation are there and [43:19] are there small things that you saw [43:21] within the mafia that you probably don't [43:23] see in the outside world one of them [43:25] you've already named which is this idea [43:26] of being really punctual mhm but what [43:29] and it seems like respect is at the very [43:30] heart of much of what you said what are [43:32] those small things that are important [43:35] for a negotiation or a sales pitch in [43:37] your view well understand you know again [43:40] you know I always learn this there's [43:43] sometimes you can walk into a room and [43:44] be the smartest person in the room you [43:47] don't want anybody to know that and you [43:49] want people to just talk let you know [43:52] just talk give them an opening give them [43:54] throw them a bone so that they're gon to [43:55] come back and talk and and learn the [43:57] personality of this person learn you can [43:59] learn so much from people just when they [44:01] talk and you keep quiet there's other [44:04] times when you're not the smartest [44:05] person in the room and by keeping quiet [44:08] nobody knows that what is this guy [44:10] thinking what you know what is this [44:11] thinking it's a tremendous technique and [44:14] in that life it was extremely valuable [44:16] for me I was always the last guy to talk [44:19] don't tell me everything you know and uh [44:21] it helped me kind of Master that art in [44:24] that life because you had these guys [44:26] never sell them short there were some [44:28] very smart guys here if they weren't in [44:30] that life they would have been [44:31] successful somewhere else you know very [44:32] smart so you had to really know what you [44:34] were doing because the consequences too [44:36] are very severe I mean you could walk in [44:38] there and lose your shirt you know [44:41] because the boss could say hey not only [44:43] you going to pay this guy this but [44:44] you're going to pay the family [44:45] everything else and everything you got [44:47] I'm taking away from you right now those [44:49] that's how severe it could have been so [44:52] you yes you really had to know I'll tell [44:54] you this when I I think you know I was [44:56] in the gas business right the gas tax [44:58] business I was defrauding the government [45:00] out of tax on every gallon of gasoline [45:02] it was probably the biggest scam since [45:05] the days of prohibition explain to me [45:07] how that was even possible the law at [45:10] that time is that the gas tax was [45:13] collected by a wholesaler you had to be [45:15] a licensed [45:16] wholesaler but the government really [45:19] wasn't up to their collection process so [45:22] to make a long story short I had 18 [45:24] companies that were licensed to col the [45:27] tax on every gallon of gasoline they [45:29] were all shell companies every single [45:30] one of them all right and they were all [45:33] Panamanian companies why Panama because [45:35] Panama corporation in c Panama had be [45:38] stock you give me the stock I'm the [45:40] owner I give it to you you're the owner [45:42] so we didn't have to give a lot of [45:43] information the only reason I needed the [45:45] company was number one to get the LI to [45:47] get the license and number two to open a [45:49] bank account I didn't need brick or more [45:51] I need anything right that's all I [45:52] needed so so now I'm allowed to collect [45:55] the tax we had a very sophisticated um [45:59] process or strategy to collect that tax [46:03] for about 10 11 sometimes a whole year [46:06] before the government came down on us [46:07] because we had a report we had to pay [46:09] quarterly and so on and so they were [46:11] very slow they're very slow so we we had [46:13] a way to keep them at Bay for almost a [46:16] year when they finally came down on us [46:18] we closed the office closed the the that [46:21] license and just started operating under [46:22] a new license well I ran this for seven [46:25] years so just to summarize off I'll make [46:27] sure I'm clear you had the supply chain [46:29] coming from Panama that was where the no [46:31] we had we had the companies were [46:33] Panamanian companies okay right so where [46:35] was the gas coming from gas was coming [46:36] from we were buying barges as they came [46:38] over from the Middle East and we were [46:40] buying gas from all the major oil [46:42] companies ah okay so you bought the gas [46:44] with a shell company in Panama which [46:46] allowed you to get the wholesale license [46:48] so that you could collect the tax from [46:50] the retailer correct of the gas and then [46:53] you would sell it to the retailer and [46:55] then when the government for their tax [46:57] maybe 12 months later you say sorry the [46:59] company's gone busted and you shut it [47:00] down you would say anything the door [47:01] would be closed there would be nobody [47:03] there they wouldn't even know where to [47:04] go okay yeah so you were you then giving [47:07] the retailer a discount on the gas yes [47:10] okay you know I I the way I do it let's [47:12] say you know and I had 350 gas stations [47:14] I either owned or operated 300 plus gas [47:16] stations we either owned or operate at [47:18] least whatever but uh if we would go buy [47:20] a gas station on a corner where there [47:22] were four stations and you have a lot of [47:24] that in New York we would buy one [47:26] station lead one station could have been [47:27] a mobile any brand didn't matter and [47:30] we'd get the other three station owners [47:32] and say come here we want to talk to you [47:33] here's the deal okay whatever you sell [47:35] the gas for we're going to be two cents [47:37] cheaper if you go down five we'll go [47:39] down 10 if you go down 10 we'll go down [47:41] 20 because I had 40 cents to work with [47:43] in most cases I we'll put you out of [47:45] business so just stay understand that [47:47] we're going to stay two cents we don't [47:49] want to kill you we want you to earn [47:51] money but we're always going to be [47:52] cheaper before you know it they're [47:54] buying all their GS from us anyway so we [47:56] was selling all all four stations were [47:58] you know being supplied by us because [48:01] look gas station owner if you're saving [48:03] them five six seven cents a gallon 10 [48:05] cents a g it's a lot of money you know [48:06] if they're doing volume too so we were [48:09] selling gas to everybody branded [48:11] stations unbranded stations didn't [48:12] matter and the government just could not [48:15] keep up with us so when I realized what [48:17] I had you'll appreciate this I went to [48:19] my boss at the time call my personal [48:21] he's passed on now and we called him [48:24] Junior and I said Junior here's the deal [48:26] I'm going to show you more money than [48:27] you've ever seen in your life cuz I [48:29] realized what I had right he says we [48:31] don't do drugs I says not drugs you know [48:33] I hate drugs I nothing to do with drugs [48:35] he said what is it I said it's gas gas I [48:39] said yes tax money oh okay that's clean [48:42] I said but here's the deal everybody's [48:45] going to want a piece of this everybody [48:46] on the street when they realize what we [48:48] what I have here they're going to want a [48:49] piece of it so here's what you have to [48:51] do you have to make me win every [48:53] argument I said anytime I sit down [48:56] doesn't matter what family it is I said [48:57] don't play politics you know I said I'm [49:00] not telling you as the boss what to do [49:02] but I'm telling you I'm going to make [49:03] you wealthy so I said make me win every [49:06] argument I'm going to be right anyway [49:08] I'll come in right I said so make make [49:10] me win I'll make you more money than you [49:12] ever seen before I'll never forget Steve [49:14] he just sit back like this he said show [49:17] me okay I was bringing him $2 million a [49:20] week it built up to that buys a lot of [49:22] loyalty and a lot of wins on the street [49:24] CU I was constantly sitting down with [49:26] people people they wanted a piece wanted [49:28] this wanted that then if somebody wasn't [49:30] I wasn't the only guy in the business we [49:31] just B it did it better than anybody [49:33] else but if somebody wanted to buy gas [49:35] from us I'd say okay but you got to pay [49:38] if you don't pay it's going to be a [49:39] problem so when people didn't pay we had [49:41] to sit down I always won you know so it [49:44] was uh I mean look at it elevated I [49:48] became a captain as a result of the [49:49] money that I was turning in and I had a [49:52] big crew under me you know I was living [49:54] a liftime in a Jet Plane I had a [49:55] helicopter I we're bringing in 78 n10 [49:58] million a week at times is that big [50:01] selling a half a billion gallons of gas [50:03] a month taking down 30 40 cents a gallon [50:05] whatever we decided to char somebody at [50:07] that time it's a lot of [50:09] money that's a lot of money I think I'm [50:11] in the wrong business no you're in a [50:14] right yeah yeah from what I understand [50:16] you're doing pretty well so it's seven [50:18] or eight seven to 10 million a week I'm [50:19] not doing that well well does this [50:22] little gas Loop holster work let's put [50:24] it this way I'm out of it and uh I don't [50:28] even want I don't even want to be [50:30] tempted so if I wanted to become a maid [50:33] man back then which is basically when [50:35] you kind of swear the oath yeah and you [50:37] join the mafia that was after your two [50:39] years um of sort of probationary period [50:41] being an [50:42] intern I mean that process of becoming a [50:45] maid man sounded a little bit culty well [50:48] I'll tell you this you know when I got [50:50] straightened out we we call it [50:51] straightened out believe it or not you [50:53] you're straightened out that's when you [50:55] become a maid man right you know same [50:57] term but uh that was in [51:00] 1975 for 20 years prior to that almost [51:03] 25 years they had a a term that the [51:06] books were closed they weren't bringing [51:08] any new guys into the life and that was [51:10] Nationwide why security reasons they [51:12] said the only time you can make a guy is [51:15] if a guy died in a family you could [51:17] replace him so you're replaceing the [51:18] ranks but you couldn't bring anybody [51:20] else in well in the mid 70s they opened [51:23] the books okay now we're going to start [51:25] to build the families up again when I [51:27] was made there was guys waiting 20 years [51:29] 25 years yeah that were part of that and [51:32] just waiting for the day when they can [51:34] have their turn so I was you know [51:37] definitely a younger guy I mean it was a [51:39] couple of younger guys that got in at [51:40] that time you know the the double-edged [51:43] sword because there's a lot of [51:45] resentment to the young guys that got in [51:47] after two three years and guys are [51:48] waiting 20 25 years you know you it's [51:51] like anything else just that you have [51:53] the resentment from the older guys and I [51:55] had to deal with that it's just that and [51:56] it's it's a little more severe on the [51:58] street than it would be in normal life [52:01] do you still you become a maid man you [52:03] have to swear an oath to the mafia what [52:07] is that oath that you swear well for me [52:09] it was Halloween night 1975 when I took [52:12] the oath it was me and five other guys [52:15] uh that night and you don't have any [52:17] preparation they just tell you wear a [52:19] suit and then all of a sudden that night [52:20] it happens you kind of get maybe a [52:22] little inkling because you're waiting [52:23] for this to happen and we walked into a [52:26] room individually it was late at night [52:29] very solemn ceremony a dimly lit room [52:33] the uh boss was seated at the head of [52:35] like a horseshoe configuration the under [52:37] boss in the C area to his left and right [52:39] and all the carer James were alongside [52:41] of them soldiers can't attend this only [52:43] the copos only the the brass of the [52:45] family I walked down the aisle stood in [52:47] front of the boss I held out my hand he [52:49] took a knife cut my finger some blood [52:51] dropped on the floor this is a Blood [52:53] Oath I cued my hands he took a picture [52:55] of a saint Catholic alter God put in my [52:57] hands lit it a flame didn't hurt it [52:59] burnt quickly it was merely symbolic and [53:02] he said tonight Michael Frances you are [53:04] born again into a new life into kostra [53:07] this thing of ours violate what you know [53:10] about this life betray your brothers and [53:12] you will die and burn in hell like the [53:14] saint is burning in your hands do you [53:16] accept yes I do and that's how it [53:19] started that's the oath very fast very [53:21] simple very serious were you scared when [53:26] you walked into I was exhilarated that [53:27] night I was like wow finally you know [53:31] I'm going to have this even closer bond [53:33] with my dad uh I've worked for this now [53:36] for two and a half years um I was [53:38] exhilarated that night I mean hon and so [53:41] were the other Five Guys everybody why [53:44] when you look back with the wisdom that [53:45] you have now as to why you joined that [53:47] life I know your father was a catalyst [53:50] in some respects but I imagine it's [53:52] probably a bit more complex than it just [53:54] being about your father what were your [53:55] genuine motiv [53:57] ation you know quite honestly I didn't [54:00] aspire to be a mom guy I mean even [54:02] though I admired my dad it's not the [54:05] path that I wanted to take it didn't and [54:07] say wow I wish I could do that you know [54:09] and it's kind of odd because a lot of [54:11] the young people I speak to now lot [54:12] these gang bangers go into juvenile [54:15] halls and prisons and they say the same [54:17] thing wow you guys had all the money you [54:19] had all the power you had the cars you [54:21] had the women and it turned them on and [54:24] that's what wanted they wanted to be [54:25] that guy [54:27] I didn't have that feeling maybe because [54:28] I grew up with it maybe because that was [54:30] my dad um you know we didn't grow up [54:33] poor weren't wealthy but we didn't [54:35] really you know want for anything we we [54:37] had roof over our head we went on a [54:39] vacation every once in a while so we [54:41] didn't have struggle it financially in [54:43] that regard so I mean it's not something [54:45] I aspired to be it was strictly strictly [54:48] to help my dad really yeah it really was [54:51] then of course as I get into the process [54:53] well now I want to complete it I want to [54:55] become that made guy I'm working for it [54:58] you know it's like anything I do you [54:59] know I want to complete it I want to [55:01] succeed so that became part of it and [55:04] then you know because watching my dad is [55:06] one thing going through the process [55:08] understanding what the life is about [55:10] being around the other guys that were [55:11] mentoring me now I I started to really [55:14] get an understanding of the life there I [55:17] say you sound [55:19] like you were maybe slightly different [55:23] in in the sense of your intentions of [55:25] being there with slightly different from [55:27] those around you in that life what what [55:30] were everybody else's intentions what [55:32] were their motivations and I was [55:33] wondering as you speaking about the [55:35] different personality types you must [55:37] have encountered in that life I've heard [55:39] you say [55:40] before there are two types of people in [55:42] the mafia people who enjoyed killing and [55:44] people who were just following [55:46] orders which Camp were you in oh [55:49] definitely following [55:50] orders I mean I was listen there was [55:53] some you know I can mention his name [55:55] because everybody knows it it's not but [55:57] there's a guy by name Roy Deo I don't [55:59] know if you ever heard that night Roy [56:00] was uh you know it it was he was a [56:04] serial killer no question but what I say [56:07] about Roy and I knew him Roy would have [56:10] been a serial killer if he wasn't in a [56:12] mafia the mafia didn't make him a serial [56:14] killer that's just who he was I mean he [56:16] enjoyed it you know and there were guys [56:19] like that he enjoyed it I think so had [56:21] to because how how could you do that I [56:23] mean what did he do couple hundred [56:25] murders and if you you know he had a [56:28] place called The Gemini Club it was [56:31] a it was a club that he had and they [56:35] described the way they would kill [56:37] because some people became informants [56:39] that were involved with him and I mean [56:41] killing people chopping up bodies I mean [56:43] it it was gruesome you know I mean [56:46] you're a different kind of human being [56:48] if you're doing stuff like that you know [56:51] have you have you your experience in the [56:52] mafia must have taught you something [56:54] about the nature of humans and what way [56:56] we're capable of because we all walk [56:58] around thinking that we're quote unquote [57:02] good and that we are just we were born [57:05] with this perfect sort of moral compass [57:07] and that none of us are capable of doing [57:10] violent things or morbid things or aoral [57:13] things but you must have a slightly [57:14] different perspective on that yeah not [57:16] true at all I think just the opposite I [57:18] think we all have something in us that [57:22] you know if we're triggered in the right [57:23] way we can we can do damage let's put it [57:26] that way way I've seen that my whole [57:28] life sometimes for the right reasons and [57:31] sometimes for the wrong reasons you know [57:33] obviously if you're in defense of your [57:35] family of your friend I mean you you [57:36] might do some horrible things to to [57:38] somebody that's trying to victimize them [57:41] uh but there's others that you know just [57:44] do it because they can do it and I've [57:46] seen that I've seen [57:48] both do you think things like murder are [57:51] part of human nature yes [57:54] absolutely I do believe that [57:59] I mean you [58:01] know and I want to be clear on this be [58:03] careful on this murder is [58:05] murder murder is murder the reason you [58:08] commit it is another thing but listen [58:12] you're going to the military you're [58:13] killing people on the other side why are [58:15] you doing it well I'm defending my [58:16] country and I get it and I understand [58:18] that and that's a noble [58:20] thing supposedly right but you're still [58:23] committing murders you still have it in [58:25] you you could have been the nicest guy [58:26] in the world okay you could have been [58:27] the most laid-back soft person in the [58:30] world you go into the military they're [58:31] going to teach you to be a killer and [58:32] you're going to do it so you have it in [58:35] you you know [58:39] um it's a tough thing but I think I [58:42] think everybody has the capability of [58:44] doing something doing damage let's let [58:47] me use that word how have you been [58:50] affected by what you saw because I can [58:53] imagine your eyes have seen seen some [58:55] things that mine absolutely haven't and [58:57] it's it's impossible to think that one [58:59] can just shake that off you know i' I've [59:03] been blessed in a way that sometimes [59:05] even my wife gets upset with me that I [59:08] can compartmentalize things pretty well [59:11] and I think it's the result of being in [59:13] that life and I I think this is what [59:15] triggered it for me Steve I had a a fell [59:18] when my dad went to prison he was a they [59:21] called him Arty the animal he's a real [59:23] tough guy right he was a Jewish guy but [59:26] I loved him he was like a second dad for [59:27] me my father and him were very close [59:29] when my dad went away he kind of again [59:31] took not only me but my whole family [59:33] very close with his family he had [59:35] younger kids his his wife was was [59:38] wonderful and um he got murdered I was [59:42] young was 17 18 years old and he got [59:44] murdered no I'm sorry I'm sorry made [59:46] mistake it was when my dad first went [59:48] into prison so I was 19 or [59:50] 20 and [59:52] um I walked into the funeral parlor I'll [59:55] never forget get and his sister came up [59:58] to me and hugged me and she said you [60:02] need to come with me you need to look at [60:05] what these animals did to my brother [60:06] I'll never forget the words the coffin [60:08] was [60:09] closed and she opened the coffin and he [60:13] was unrecognizable there's a guy I [60:17] loved I I didn't faint but it got to me [60:21] it really got to me i' never seen [60:23] anything like that before in reality [60:25] especially somebody I really cared for [60:27] really loved and it did have an impact [60:30] on me there's no [60:32] question but somehow I was able to get [60:36] beyond that as a young person I don't [60:38] know what that says about me in that [60:41] regard [60:42] um and I'm able to do that about certain [60:45] things you know even if it's wrong this [60:48] was wrong but I I can't sit on it I [60:51] can't let it get to me I can't I got to [60:54] overcome it and I think think that was [60:56] uh that was a defining moment in my life [60:59] to be able to move that and then [61:01] continue to move into the life because I [61:03] said this is part of it do you regret [61:06] that she did that that she showed you [61:09] him yeah I didn't need to see that I [61:13] didn't need to um she did it out of love [61:16] she didn't do it out of because she [61:18] loved me and she was her sister [61:21] devastated and I think she felt close [61:24] enough to me because she knew how I [61:25] cared about Arty and how he cared about [61:27] me so she just it was grief no other [61:32] reason you know it was just aere a [61:34] sincere move that she did but I didn't [61:37] need to see that and you know what [61:39] there's times when I have visions of [61:41] that um my wife you know I have a [61:44] tendency in my sleep things don't come [61:47] out of me when I'm awake but when I'm in [61:49] my sleep she says you know you had a [61:51] fight last night who is it with and it [61:53] happens fairly often you know more than [61:56] I think a normal person um but I don't [62:00] remember I wake up hey I'm fine you see [62:03] him in your sleep I have yeah I have [62:08] um again that was like boom you know and [62:11] something just impacts you in a way like [62:14] whoa I compartmentalizing sounds like a [62:18] good short-term strategy to to things to [62:22] grief to um traumatic events and things [62:25] but I I don't know if I believe one can [62:27] truly compartmentalize something Forever [62:30] Without It rearing its its head some [62:32] somewhere else I almost see it like kind [62:34] of like whacka all like I might be able [62:36] to shut it down in this part of my life [62:38] but it's probably going to emerge over [62:39] here in some other way I agree with that [62:42] I I think when something is so severe [62:45] even at that moment I think it could it [62:48] could last and come out in different [62:50] ways you know um you know I mean another [62:54] I mean there was a very dear friend [62:55] friend of mine you know was like a [62:57] brother to me and he ended up getting [62:58] killed and that had an impact on me [63:02] because I honestly tried to save him and [63:05] I [63:05] couldn't yeah because he he without [63:08] getting into the details he did [63:10] something that was total violation of [63:12] our life and he lost his life as a [63:16] result of it and I couldn't save him I [63:19] tried but I couldn't he was in the mafia [63:24] yeah so there was a sit down I'm [63:26] presuming and it was decided that he [63:28] wasn't going to live yeah were you in a [63:30] sit down I was in I was in a number of [63:34] sit Downs in my life you know [63:36] um yeah it was [63:39] uh it was a tough one you know one of [63:43] the horrors of that life is you know you [63:45] make a mistake your best friend walks [63:46] you into that room you don't walk out [63:48] again and throughout the course of my [63:50] life I've seen that obviously I've seen [63:52] guys that you know were here one day [63:54] gone the next and it's [63:57] uh it's it's one of the evil parts of [63:59] that life there's no question and I saw [64:02] guys that that died for the wrong [64:04] reasons you know it's like anything else [64:06] you know in in the corporate world you [64:08] have greed and you have backstabbing and [64:10] all of that but you lose your job you [64:12] lose some money you move on in that life [64:15] the consequences are [64:17] severe so um I was thinking about my [64:20] best friend and I was thinking if my [64:22] best friend did something which was [64:26] disrespectful in some way I don't know [64:28] he stole something maybe he something [64:31] even more extreme he slept with my [64:37] sister you [64:40] know I wouldn't want him to die no you [64:44] wouldn't want him to die but in the life [64:45] you came from he would he would die it's [64:48] uh it's a it's the most severe policy I [64:51] I'll tell you this I'll tell you how [64:53] severe it is there was another guy you [64:55] know and I have to mention his name was [64:57] two brothers that were made guys in that [64:58] life and I was friendly with them both [65:01] one of them happened to be in our family [65:02] the other one was with another family [65:05] but I drove him home to Brooklyn one [65:07] day and um he got out of the car and I [65:11] said I'll see he said no wait wait don't [65:13] leave yet I said okay I waited so he [65:16] opened the door of his house and he [65:18] looked in and like he was looking at [65:20] something I wasn't really paying [65:21] attention but then I seen him close the [65:23] door and come out and he got in car and [65:26] I said what happened he said well [65:28] nobody's home I but that's your house [65:30] what do you mean nobody's home why do [65:32] somebody have to be home and he said I [65:34] can't go in my house I said what do you [65:36] mean well his father had been caught [65:41] fooling around with somebody else's wife [65:43] or daughter at the time and him and his [65:46] brother were given the contract and he [65:48] killed his [65:49] father and he said anytime I walk in the [65:51] house if I'm alone the ghost of my [65:53] father is in there and haunts me [65:56] so he said I haven't been in my house [65:58] alone in 20 some odd years he killed his [66:01] own father [66:04] yeah [66:06] now I want to you know I don't want to [66:10] how should I say this I don't want to [66:12] give the impression that that's what the [66:15] life is all about every day and all the [66:17] time it's [66:18] not but there are extreme cases where [66:20] these things happen and that's what [66:22] makes it a bad life and I call it an [66:24] evil life because families are destroyed [66:27] as a result of this I don't know any [66:30] family of any maid member of that life [66:32] that hasn't been devastated including my [66:35] own now not my wife and kids I've been [66:37] able to spare them of that praise God [66:39] but my mother 33 years without a husband [66:42] when she passed away in 2012 her [66:44] relationship with my dad ugly because [66:48] she blamed him for everything that went [66:49] wrong rightfully so he was gone all [66:51] these 40 years my dad did on that 50 so [66:54] what went wrong my sister 27 years old [66:57] dies of an O overdose of [67:00] drugs my brother 25 years a drug addict [67:04] Steve you don't know what I had to do to [67:06] save his life so many times kid you know [67:09] drug addict if he wasn't my my brother [67:12] my Father's son he would have never made [67:14] it my younger sister 40 years old she [67:17] died young she was never mentally stable [67:20] the whole family was devastated and my [67:22] father ended up doing 40 years out of 50 [67:25] in that prison he was out a few times on [67:27] parole but 40 years out of the 50 his [67:29] life destroyed basically so any [67:32] lifestyle that does that to a family is [67:34] a bad life it's an evil life and I don't [67:37] know any family of any member that [67:39] hasn't met a similar fate in some way [67:42] shape or form so you know I came to that [67:44] conclusion I said this is this is bad [67:48] and what got me out of it you know I met [67:49] a young girl that I fell in love with [67:51] she was 20 years old my wife were [67:53] married 39 years this week [67:56] um I said' am I going to do this to this [67:58] girl and marry her I'm a major Target is [68:02] I'm never going to get away with this [68:04] long term I had huge Bulls on my back I [68:07] went to trial five times I had seven [68:09] indictments arrested 18 times they were [68:12] never going to let me go they had a 14 [68:14] agency task force that was assigned to [68:16] put me in jail forever it's all [68:18] documented so I said what am I going to [68:20] do I'm going to marry this girl and in [68:22] two years I'll be in jail for the rest [68:23] of my life so that's what started to [68:26] give me I got to get away from [68:30] this do you think you would have um [68:32] gotten away from it just with the will [68:35] of Love Alone no if it was I I you [68:39] know I really thought about this myself [68:42] so often you know I had an incident [68:45] where my dad actually betrayed [68:47] me and it was devastating to me and it [68:51] made me think I said if this life can [68:53] separate father and son what do I really [68:55] have here what do we really have what [68:57] are we doing here and I didn't meet my [69:00] wife until two years after [69:02] that um but I I don't if that act of [69:06] betrayal didn't happen for my dad I [69:09] don't know if I would have ever left the [69:10] life because the the pull he had on me [69:12] was very strong I don't know if I would [69:15] have walked away but I think that had to [69:18] happen to kind of separate me from him [69:20] and really make me understand that this [69:23] life if it could separate us what is it [69:26] what was the [69:27] Betrayal I was called into a room one [69:30] night was over money and there was an [69:32] article that came out in a Long Island [69:35] newspaper I think it was a long island [69:36] press out of circulation now that said I [69:39] was becoming powerful enough to take [69:41] over to start my own family break away [69:44] from the Columbo start my own family no [69:46] truth in it whatsoever some reporter [69:48] just made it up because I was doing well [69:50] I had a Jet Plane helicopter big crew I [69:52] was in the media what was your net worth [69:54] and how old were you [69:56] I was uh well when I walked away from [69:59] that life I was 34 this was I was around [70:01] 30 at that point 29 30 do you know what [70:04] your net worth was I have no idea [70:06] because I had a lot of cash was in the [70:08] Millions for sure it was a lot of money [70:11] and then it was saying that I that I had [70:12] defrauded the government at $2 billion [70:15] it wasn't two billion it was a lot of [70:16] money but you know they always they [70:17] always exaggerate so now guys on the [70:20] street are starting to get a little2 [70:22] billion dollar his own family I had the [70:24] Russians I had organ organized the [70:25] Russians with me we had a very strong [70:27] crew had a lot of guys around me so I [70:30] think to they walk me into that room one [70:33] night and my father was in there before [70:36] me and I mean I could this story can [70:39] take an hour so I don't want to hold you [70:40] up with it but um the bottom line is I I [70:46] I talk my sense into them and said [70:50] basically I'm bringing you all this [70:52] money and I'm being put on the spot for [70:54] this I said I'm taking all the risk [70:56] nobody else is in Jeopardy here these [70:59] are my guys nobody knows who you are I [71:02] purposely kept my guys away from them so [71:04] that if my thing ever blew up we [71:06] wouldn't be hurting any of the guys in [71:08] the family and I said and now I'm being [71:10] questioned I said they write an article [71:13] about me all of a sudden it's true they [71:14] write about everybody else it's false so [71:18] I started to get angry with the boss you [71:19] don't do that you know you know the you [71:21] never outshine the master you know that [71:24] principle and that life for sure so I [71:26] calmed myself down I said okay I'm [71:28] walking out of here everything's going [71:29] to be all right then we finished up and [71:31] you know we glass of wine everything's [71:33] great you know the usual thing and then [71:35] it wasn't until I got in the car with [71:37] the guy that drove me there who I knew [71:40] my whole life he was a captain along [71:42] with me and I got in the car and I got [71:44] very upset with him I said you knew you [71:46] didn't tell me what was happening here [71:47] tonight I walking into a trap and you [71:50] don't prepare me you don't say anything [71:51] to me you know what he said Steve he [71:54] looked at me and he said if was the [71:55] other way around would you have told [71:58] me and I said you're a smart guy and I [72:01] said [72:02] no said Michael you know the life as [72:04] well as anybody you grew up around the [72:07] best I said okay I get out of I go to [72:11] get out of the car and he grabs my hand [72:13] my arm and he says I'm going to tell you [72:15] something you're not going to want to [72:16] hear this but it's the truth I am your [72:18] friend he said we live by a certain code [72:20] but I am your friend I said what your [72:23] father was in there before you tonight [72:24] he didn't help you one bit he hurt you [72:26] in there tonight and I was like [72:29] devastated I said what do you [72:31] mean and I said it to myself I didn't [72:34] ask him I couldn't even answer him I W I [72:36] was starting I got out of the car and [72:37] was walking towards my car and I started [72:39] to think knowing my father so well I [72:42] said I know what he did hey my son is [72:45] stealing he does everything I'm on [72:47] parole I don't know what he's doing I [72:49] have no idea he just kind of took the [72:51] high road and left me on my own instead [72:53] of standing up for me because we were [72:55] both captains at that point my Dad could [72:57] have forcefully said how dare you my son [73:00] would never rob me he could have really [73:01] came out but he didn't I was really on [73:03] my own and that could have been [73:05] dangerous you know again the traps that [73:08] they set up for you during that time [73:10] because believe me they would have love [73:11] to take over my business and just you [73:13] know and you got to watch for that so [73:16] the traps that were set up you know [73:17] fortunately I was able to navigate him [73:19] but uh it really was devastating CU I [73:22] said H how could that happen and you [73:24] were running most multiple businesses at [73:26] that point not just the the fuel [73:27] business no I had I had uh well you know [73:30] I had legitimate business I had two uh [73:32] automate Bal agencies I had a Mazda [73:34] dealership very successful I had a [73:36] Chevrolet dealership successful I had a [73:38] leasing company I had a film production [73:41] company at that time I was making movies [73:43] I made about 30 Films during that time [73:45] all horror exploitation films they were [73:47] big at that point I had a number of [73:49] restaurants that I was involved in um I [73:52] had a video shop on video you know sets [73:55] and everything were big didn't compete [73:57] with Blockbuster but we had a good [73:58] neighborhood spot you know so I had a [74:00] lot of things going on I had a lot of [74:01] money on the street I was lended money [74:03] out to uh to a lot of my own guys I'd [74:06] lend it to them they in turn would lend [74:07] it to somebody else you know so I mean I [74:10] had I had had a lot going on and did you [74:12] have to pay a tax to the mafia for [74:14] earning money did you have to then pay [74:15] the mafia some of that money if it was [74:17] illegitimate yes okay so if it's legal [74:20] no if it's legal no unless they [74:21] contributed in some way and they didn't [74:23] my dealerships were mine I didn't didn't [74:25] owe them anything you know my my film [74:27] company was mine uh but anything I had [74:30] on the street yes you have to pay up how [74:32] did being part of the mafia help you in [74:34] business could you just you told me the [74:37] gas station story I imagine you went [74:39] strong arming your way all the time into [74:41] business or were you didn't have the [74:44] strong arm you know uh listen the Mazda [74:46] agencies that I got people knew who I [74:48] was you know I was going broke I didn't [74:51] have any money I was on trial a couple I [74:53] was broke but I told the guy said listen [74:55] I understand the business I'm very [74:57] aggressive Give me the give me the place [74:59] you know who my father is you know ah [75:01] you got it I'm going broke so he gave me [75:03] the dealership basically and then [75:06] through a series of things I was able to [75:08] get floor planning I mean it was a whole [75:10] stuff I worked hard Steve I was 7 day a [75:12] week working guy worked hard I kind of [75:16] understood certain things like you know [75:18] I right away there was a guy in General [75:20] Electric Credit you know I went to him I [75:23] knew he kind of was fascinated with the [75:25] life and I said to him look I need a [75:28] floor plan for my cars I don't have any [75:29] money I said I need a couple hundred, I [75:32] got to be able to buy cars from Mazda I [75:34] said I'll give you so much your car I [75:36] said you floor plan me I'll play it [75:38] straight with you every car I sell I'll [75:40] give you a couple hundred bucks he was [75:42] in troll he floor planned me that's how [75:44] I got the floor plan what's the floor [75:45] plan floor plan is financing to buy the [75:48] cars from from the uh manufacturer so [75:51] you can put them on your yacht oh your [75:53] they don't give you credit you got to [75:56] when does it all come crashing down for [75:58] you [76:00] well Came Crashing Down really like I I [76:03] had went to trial five times and is [76:05] either dismissed or quitted in every [76:07] case I beat him five times but it came [76:11] crashing down in the gasoline tax case [76:13] my partner who he and I developed this [76:16] scheme together he was really the brains [76:17] of it I was the Polish I knew how to do [76:22] certain things that he couldn't do but [76:24] he came up with the scheme I brought the [76:26] accountant in I brought a certain [76:28] strategy in I brought people to the [76:30] table and I made sure nobody messed up [76:33] and we got the right money I was I was [76:35] the expansion part of the business you [76:36] know and um he became an informant he [76:40] got in trouble on an unrelated case and [76:43] uh they told him listen you're going to [76:44] jail forever unless you give us Michael [76:47] and that's when it started to come down [76:48] on me I took a plead at a gasoline case [76:51] even though he had testified against me [76:53] in a prior case and I was acquitted we [76:55] destroyed him on the stand he wasn't a [76:56] good witness but part of my strategy [77:00] I'll take a plea I'll marry I knew my [77:02] wife at that point I'm going to marry [77:03] this girl I'll get a lower sentence by [77:05] taking a plea I'll give the government [77:07] back some money I gave up my plane my [77:09] helicopter the whole bit take it [77:10] forfeitures I had five million in [77:11] forfeitures and 15 million in [77:13] restitution I had to pay them so um it [77:17] was part of my strategy to take a plea [77:20] do some time give them some money move [77:23] out to the West Coast marry girl and [77:25] then try to get out of her life it's [77:27] part of my strategy really how' you feel [77:30] about him you know I'm going to tell you [77:34] God's honest truth um he was six 6'4 [77:38] almost 65 450 pounds big guy he wasn't a [77:43] sloppy fat he was a big guy right we [77:46] were together seven eight years never [77:48] had an [77:49] argument his kids called me uncle [77:51] Michael I was married before for a short [77:54] time and my young kids called him Uncle [77:56] Larry we made Millions together but I [78:00] knew he was weak I knew if he ever got [78:02] in trouble and um look when he got in [78:05] trouble they said to me we'll take care [78:07] of him for you and I said listen I'm [78:10] going to fight him his wife I know his [78:12] family I can't do it I said just I'll [78:14] fight him in court they were upset with [78:17] me for making that decision and that was [78:19] my decision I said I'll fight him in [78:21] court and [78:23] um that's what happened how'd you feel [78:26] about [78:28] him it's almost [78:31] like I couldn't even be really upset [78:33] with him because we were we got along so [78:35] well we made so much money I just knew [78:37] he was weak so you know I learned one [78:39] thing Steve I I try not to put the blame [78:42] on anybody else anything that goes wrong [78:44] I take responsibility for [78:47] personally I should have known better [78:50] even if some guy does me wrong why [78:52] didn't I figure that out why didn't I [78:53] know this I always to take [78:55] responsibility so I don't make the same [78:56] mistake again it's worked for me my [78:58] whole life when you start playing a [79:00] Blame Game and start all it does it's [79:03] it's a sign of weakness in my view and [79:06] you know if you accept responsibility [79:08] for everything even when it really isn't [79:10] your fault and you say I should have [79:11] known better come on how did I do this [79:13] why I let this guy get take advantage of [79:15] me like this you know until right now I [79:18] have a situation now I'm saying the same [79:20] thing my fault you know what am I going [79:21] to do get mad you know so you know it's [79:24] just the way I operate so was I really [79:27] upset with him like you know no when you [79:30] say you knew he was weak how are you [79:33] defining weakness and strength I knew if [79:35] he got in trouble he wouldn't stand up [79:37] he would cooperate he didn't want to go [79:39] to prison he was he wasn't a guy that [79:41] was going to do jail time I knew that [79:44] and uh and my other guy you know one of [79:47] the things is my boss always wanted to [79:51] meet him and I said I'm not going to me [79:53] now I know why they wanted to meet him [79:55] you know in case of anything they would [79:56] take him away from me right I said I'm [79:58] not going to make you meet him because [80:00] he's weak if we ever get he he's going [80:03] to give up everybody so why would I make [80:05] him meet you and then you're going to [80:06] blame me for introducing him to you [80:09] strategy right they couldn't say no to [80:11] that they couldn't say no and I said it [80:13] in front of people I said I'm telling [80:15] you this guy is not going to stand up [80:17] when I have a problem he's my problem [80:18] I'll take care of it my way but I'm not [80:21] going to introduce him to people that he [80:23] can put in trouble no way [80:25] and they couldn't argue with that was [80:27] part of my strategy so when he snitched [80:30] effectively MH did they not want to take [80:33] care of it oh absolutely yeah they said [80:35] we'll handle it for you you know turn us [80:38] you know let us know they wanted they [80:40] wanted him out of the picture so they [80:42] didn't want this to [80:43] end because they figured that if he's [80:46] gone I can still keep this [80:48] going how how easy was that for them to [80:52] order someone's murder because they it [80:54] sounds to matter of fact like oh we'll [80:56] take care of this the boss had total how [81:00] hard was it for the boss to order a [81:02] murder and then have it executed yeah [81:04] wasn't hard at [81:06] all was not hard at all especially was [81:09] with somebody within our [81:10] life it wasn't hard unfortunately so the [81:14] boss could you say take care of him and [81:16] then someone would go and do it [81:17] absolutely no questions asked boss at [81:20] that point say he's going to go they [81:22] need to sign it to somebody and then [81:24] it's up to them [81:25] how they handle it what if they didn't [81:27] handle it they'd be in trouble they got [81:29] to handle it was there ever an instance [81:32] you can recall why someone didn't handle [81:33] it well it could have been an aborted [81:36] attempt and if it was a legitimately [81:39] aborted attempt um you know you you're [81:42] normally not going to be held [81:43] responsible for that [81:45] but if you're given a job you better get [81:47] it done let's put it that way or you [81:49] going to be responsible in some ways yes [81:52] you could be especially if that person [81:53] goes on to do something hurtful to [81:56] everybody [81:57] else eventually you do get sent to [82:00] prison you take a plea deal yeah what's [82:02] your plea deal I plad to uh it was a [82:05] racketeering case the underlying Act was [82:09] uh tax fraud MH and um two counts that I [82:12] pled guilty to racketeering conspiracy [82:15] something and 10-year prison sentence 15 [82:18] million 14.7 million in restitution 5 [82:21] million in [82:22] forfeitures and um leave you with any [82:25] money well yes because in negotiating [82:30] The Plea I was able to keep certain [82:33] things and not I said listen if I'm [82:35] going to take a plea my wife's not going [82:37] to go to work I'm going to make sure my [82:39] wife my kid they're all okay so I'm [82:41] going to keep some of the money you know [82:44] so uh when you're negotiating a plea my [82:47] lawyer he was able to at least give me [82:49] enough my wife never had to go to work [82:51] when I was in jail did they I was [82:53] wondering this because a lot other [82:54] things you described sound like they [82:55] were done in cash a lot of cash no [82:59] question um but there was a lot of wire [83:02] transfers and money sent in different [83:04] places we had a lot but not everybody [83:06] paid and we were selling to legitimate [83:09] gas station owners you know they didn't [83:10] pay you in cash all the time and [83:13] especially when you selling big volume [83:14] there was a lot of wire transfers a lot [83:16] of wire activity what was the most cash [83:18] you ever saw in person oh gosh I think [83:22] the most I've ever seen is like 10K I [83:24] just think [83:25] well I've just never seen a lot of cash [83:26] in my lifetime we I don't even have a [83:27] wallet you don't deal with cash I just [83:29] have my phone so you know [83:32] probably 40 50 million around there in [83:35] cash in cash yeah yeah you've seen 40 or [83:39] 50 million in cash mhm when was that [83:42] back in the uh 80s early 80s was it just [83:45] in a room or something yeah it was in a [83:47] room yeah how how big does a room have [83:50] to be to have 40 50 had to be pretty big [83:52] cuz gas station money is small bills [83:56] okay yeah I mean listen it got to a [83:58] point with the cash where I used to come [84:00] home and I used to get the fives and [84:02] ones and I used to give them to my wife [84:03] say give this to your brothers and [84:04] sisters because I have no room for them [84:06] there's no place to put them and I'd [84:08] give her a couple Grand and and say just [84:10] give it out want keep the 20s and you [84:12] know the T [84:14] and it was you know washing the money [84:17] was an issue I mean I once my wife went [84:20] to the bank and I gave her I don't know [84:22] thousands of dollars to deposit and and [84:25] the banker said why does your money [84:27] always smell like gas so my wife Saidi [84:29] not going to the bank anymore for you [84:31] she and she didn't know I was doing [84:32] anything wrong I never discussed it with [84:34] her I never told her anything I said hey [84:36] I'm in this business I'm a wholesaler we [84:38] have a lot of cash you know you go to a [84:40] gas station they pay with cash and have [84:42] as many credit cards as they have now so [84:44] uh so it came to a point I said all [84:46] right I'll fix it and I bought a [84:48] refrigerator and I put baking soda in [84:50] the refrigerator with the cash and that [84:51] took the smell [84:53] out and she said I never seen anything [84:56] like that before I said well you know [84:58] gas nobody wants to smell gas you know I [85:00] but I made everything legitimate out of [85:01] it I never told her a thing that was [85:03] going on never did you not I always I [85:06] always think when I read stories like [85:07] this that if I was in that moment I [85:09] would live in a permanent state of fear [85:11] that I might go to jail so I'd take I [85:13] don't know a couple of million and bury [85:14] it [85:16] somewhere you're nodding is that what [85:18] you did well listen I I you know I was [85:22] resourceful in that regard but you know [85:24] your plans don't always work out the way [85:26] you want them to I'll tell you one thing [85:28] that really hurt me bad I hired a lawyer [85:31] that had just come out of the government [85:33] the prosecution's office he was as a [85:35] matter of fact he was almost on one of [85:37] my cases but he wasn't so there was no [85:39] conflict but he just came out of the [85:41] eastern district of New York which is [85:43] Brooklyn where my cases were most of [85:44] them and so I hired him and I said John [85:47] I need one thing from you I want to know [85:49] when I'm going to be arrested or locked [85:51] up or indicted on this gasoline case [85:54] this was after my pondy became a snitch [85:58] and he said I'll never forget he said [85:59] don't worry about it June of 86 that's [86:01] when it's going to happen you got time [86:03] right and this was like the middle of [86:06] 85 I said great I had got married in [86:09] July of 85 right I said great I got time [86:11] I have my own plan I was moving things [86:14] around but I was figuring I had seven [86:16] eight nine months well I got indicted in [86:19] December of that year and no Bell so [86:22] they kind of derailed a lot of my plan [86:25] and strategy because I got locked up six [86:27] months earlier than I thought and so [86:30] that that was that was hurtful I can [86:33] tell you that what was your plan I was [86:36] moving a lot of money around quite [86:38] honestly moving a lot of money around at [86:40] different places and uh physical money [86:42] or yeah [86:45] yeah and money that I had put in certain [86:48] places I was taking it out and I was [86:50] putting it so I I said I I never have to [86:53] worry about anything again I'm going to [86:54] have to sit on this cash because um [86:58] another thing happened my partner and I [87:00] had a um a bank in [87:02] Austria and we were taking a federal tax [87:05] money 9 cents and we were just putting [87:07] in that banking we weren't we opened up [87:09] a bank account he had half the number it [87:11] was a numbered account he had half the [87:13] number I had half the number neither one [87:14] of us knew the other half right we just [87:16] did it I was came up that I said let's [87:19] make sure we have no temptation it was [87:21] more for him than for me right and [87:24] we had about $33 million in that [87:27] account when he became a snitch I got a [87:30] hold of his son Larry Jr his name was [87:33] Larry and I said tell your father I'll [87:35] fight him in court don't give up the [87:37] money it's our money it's for you your [87:39] mother but don't give up the money [87:41] whatever happens let's we'll worry about [87:43] the court [87:44] situation well he testifies against me [87:48] he becomes an informant goes to HBY he [87:50] never gives up the money never gives up [87:51] the account he testifies against me and [87:53] a juliani case I get acquitted jury [87:57] didn't believe him right we destroyed [87:58] him on the stand so now the government [88:00] in the eastern district the other side [88:02] in Brooklyn said you're worthless you [88:04] couldn't get a conviction on Francis [88:06] you're worthless we're throwing you out [88:07] of the program you're done he gets [88:10] scared he says wait a second you know [88:12] there's more he gives him the half of [88:14] the [88:15] number the FBI goes to Austria true [88:18] story goes to Austria and says it's [88:21] Mafia money we have half the uh the [88:23] account number we want it Austria says I [88:27] don't care what money it is you come [88:28] with the full account number or you're [88:29] not getting anything tells the FBI they [88:32] didn't care they wouldn't give it up [88:33] Austria not Switzerland Austria right so [88:36] now when I'm they I get indicted then [88:39] negotiating The Plea originally they [88:42] want to give me a $100 million fine and [88:44] 25 years in prison that was what we were [88:47] negotiating so my lawyer comes to me he [88:49] says you're never going to get the money [88:51] he's got the it's done it's over it's [88:54] finished he says give me the account [88:57] number it'll help me negotiate The Plea [88:59] down I give it to him they negotiate the [89:03] plea from 25 years and 100 million down [89:06] to 10 years and 15 million with a 5 [89:08] million forfeiture Clause right so he [89:11] did it did was very helpful in that [89:13] regard but we lost all that money that [89:15] was it you know it was meaningful it [89:18] wasn't all everything but it was [89:19] meaningful and and when he cooperated [89:22] they gave him back 2 and a half milon [89:24] out of that 33 million so he profited a [89:28] little bit out of it at least did you [89:30] have anything buried in the ground yes [89:33] physically buried in the ground in a [89:35] safe yes in a safe in the ground safes I [89:38] would say saf in the ground yes up until [89:41] you were [89:43] released they were there let's put it [89:45] that no because it's what any I think [89:47] anyone with a brain would do but you [89:48] just if you don't know the timing of [89:50] your well even if you didn't I think if [89:52] I was in that life i' I'd live ass ass [89:54] uming that at some point I was probably [89:56] going to have to do some time for [89:57] something so I Buri it all over the [89:59] place I I will tell you this they they [90:01] believe that I have a lot of money stash [90:03] someplace to the point where they hired [90:05] an investigator who wrote a book about [90:07] it just to go and investigate and search [90:10] and this guy went around the world to [90:12] different accounts that he thought I [90:13] might have had money in he wrote a book [90:15] about it and they couldn't identify they [90:17] couldn't find it but until today I get [90:19] plagued with that they say we know you [90:21] got it 100% we know you got it we just [90:23] wondering when you're going to go get it [90:27] um I I don't I I don't respond to silly [90:29] stuff like that you know do you think [90:33] you're being followed and [90:35] watched no no I mean I think [90:40] uh let's put it this way at any moment [90:44] you can get in the crosshairs again and [90:46] who knows but I don't think they're [90:49] worried or concerned about me at this [90:51] moment it's not to say that that [90:54] you know that could not be a concern of [90:57] theirs [90:58] again but um I don't worry about that [91:02] but you were just saying there that that [91:04] you said they are just waiting for me to [91:06] go and get it they think they're just [91:07] waiting for you to go and get oh yeah [91:09] retired agents have told me that agents [91:11] okay so not the mafia agents yeah well [91:14] the M they they absolutely think I do [91:16] there's no question that I know yeah [91:18] I've been at there's guys that have told [91:20] me that you know told you what we know [91:23] you have it when are you g to go get it [91:25] you know when they say go get it do they [91:27] mean New York no you know wherever the [91:30] money is buried or wherever the wherever [91:32] it is you know when is it going to [91:34] appear I hear that I've heard that [91:36] consistently over the years is it [91:39] buried Le let's put it this [91:41] way if it's there who knows if I'll ever [91:44] get to use it again you know but we'll [91:46] have to [91:47] see for all the businesses and [91:49] entrepreneurs out there listening you [91:51] know how challenging it can be to reach [91:53] the right people especially when it [91:54] comes to B2B 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go to linkedin.com doac c24 to claim [92:41] your credit that's linkedin.com doac c24 [92:45] terms and conditions [92:47] apply you went to prison though and [92:49] you're in solitary confinement for a [92:50] while while you're in prison [92:52] um I can't imagine I can't imagine one [92:56] of my recurring nightmares is going to [92:58] prison I think it's just like my deepest [93:00] darkest really fear yeah it is it's [93:02] specifically going to prison for [93:04] something I didn't do is one of my like [93:05] recurring nightmares that will happen [93:07] every couple of months and it's just the [93:09] worst feeling in the world that is a [93:11] nightmare I mean to go for something you [93:13] didn't do for [93:14] sure yeah prison is uh listen it's like [93:17] anything else you got to know how to [93:18] navigate the system as best you can and [93:21] um you know my father taught me again he [93:24] said' am I going to tell you three [93:25] things that are going to help you when [93:26] you go to prison because you're going to [93:27] go one day he said three words that are [93:30] going to go a long way please thank you [93:33] excuse me and he said the reason for [93:36] that he said all these guys in prison [93:39] that never got respect on the street [93:40] they want it all in there they want to [93:42] show their people you know that they're [93:44] tough guys or whatever you bunk into [93:46] somebody excuse me you want to cut [93:48] somebody on the line go to eat whatever [93:51] said do you mind you know excuse me [93:52] please if I can come in front of you [93:54] don't ever just get in front of them you [93:57] know and somebody hands you hey thank [93:58] you thank you very much be cordial you [94:00] know and it really help because I saw [94:02] guys try to throw their weight around [94:03] John Gotti tried to throw his weight [94:05] around don't work in there guys are [94:07] doing life in prison they don't care who [94:08] you are what do they got to lose you [94:11] know um but I never had a problem never [94:14] had a problem in prison I treated people [94:16] that way and um yeah I did spend 29 [94:19] months and seven days in solitary and [94:22] honestly not easy [94:24] that was [94:25] rough I saw a lot of guys did not do [94:28] well and I don't I don't demean them for [94:31] it you know lights went out sometimes [94:32] you heard a lot of things I seen a lot [94:34] of things in there guys couldn't deal [94:35] with it for extended times it's rough [94:38] it's it's I'm dead set against it for [94:40] young people I think it's a form of [94:42] torture really really hurt them [94:45] emotionally um and I'm against it you [94:47] know unless somebody's such a danger to [94:49] themsel or a danger to others you know [94:51] I'm dead set against it but I got [94:53] through it why were you sent to solitary [94:56] they were upset with me you know when uh [94:59] when I wouldn't cooperate to the level [95:01] that they wanted me to uh especially in [95:04] one big case that they tried to get me [95:06] to take the stand against a friend of [95:07] mine and I refused and uh within a few [95:10] days I was back in on a parole violation [95:12] they locked me up and sent me right to [95:14] the hole and I was in solitary the whole [95:17] time getting me just getting even with [95:19] me 29 months and seven days seven days [95:22] yeah in a row or yes it was uh I did I [95:26] did 11 months in one place and then they [95:28] moved me that took about two days and [95:31] then put me in another place and I [95:32] finished it up when you say that you had [95:36] grown men in there [95:38] breaking what do what do you mean you [95:41] know banging heads against the bars and [95:43] just just some other disgusting things [95:45] you don't want to hear I mean you [95:47] know damaging themselves you know [95:49] hurting themselves just to get out of [95:51] the hole you know I'd see guys at that [95:53] did things to themselves to get out of [95:55] to get out of the hole in jail and get [95:59] sent to the prison so they didn't have [96:00] to stay in that environment [96:03] anymore it was just it was just bad that [96:06] that's nightmare stuff it really is you [96:10] um you're quite uncomfortable talking [96:12] about it aren't [96:13] you yeah because you know it's kind of [96:15] demeaning to to and I'm not trying to [96:18] come off that way I'm not say well I was [96:19] a tough guy I was able to handle it I [96:21] was by the grace of God I was able to [96:23] handle it I had my days and my nights [96:25] where you know you say God it's one long [96:27] day it never ends you know and I mean I [96:30] lost a lot of weight in there I was down [96:32] to I'm I'm like 190 something now I was [96:35] 180 166 when I got out of there because [96:38] I wouldn't eat you know the food that [96:40] they gave us I got uh uh tomain [96:43] poisoning a couple of times I said hey [96:45] give me cereal give me bananas and give [96:47] me cup of soup that's all I want to eat [96:49] I don't want to eat anything else and so [96:51] I lived on that for quite some time and [96:53] you know I don't want to make it sound [96:54] that I mean it wasn't uh you know some [96:58] of these places where you know you don't [97:01] have a toilet or anything else I mean [97:03] I'm sure there's places around the world [97:04] that a lot worse could be but it's just [97:08] the solitary it wasn't so much the [97:11] conditions you know what I mean we had a [97:13] sink we had a toilet you had your bed [97:15] with a little [97:16] mattress um so that wasn't it was just [97:20] it was just being solitary that's hard [97:23] did you did you find yourself losing [97:26] your own mind in there and whatever that [97:28] might mean [97:31] no no Steve honestly and I was pretty I [97:35] think I have a fairly strong [97:37] Constitution as something in me and [97:39] that's that's god-given you know I can't [97:42] I can't say I don't know how you don't [97:45] do you acquire something like that or [97:46] it's just who you are I don't know but [97:49] um I was able to deal with it I mean I [97:52] had my b nights in there you know and [97:54] you're just fortunately I had a Sony [97:57] Walkman music was you have no idea music [98:01] was so soothing I remember one Christmas [98:04] Eve I had just gotten off the phone with [98:06] my wife and it was devastating the whole [98:08] family was there and it was just and I [98:10] just put my Walkman on and and it just [98:12] lifted me out of there for a minute just [98:14] the music you forget stuff you know um [98:17] and you know I I got into my Bible [98:19] during that time and I was listening to [98:22] a pastor that I had had not known and [98:24] never met him his name was Greg Lori [98:26] he's Harvest Crusade huge Pastor here [98:28] now very dear friend of mine now uh but [98:32] his words were so uplifting I look [98:35] forward to listening to him every [98:36] morning he had a morning radio shows and [98:40] so things like that meant a lot and then [98:44] getting to a phone everything is about [98:46] the phone and and having uh you know [98:48] contact with your family so the thing [98:51] that worried me when my dad went away at [98:54] that time he got one three minute phone [98:57] call a [98:58] month and one visit a month One 8 hour [99:01] visit that was it so he lost touch with [99:05] the [99:05] family and him and my mother drifted [99:08] apart my sister hardly knew him you know [99:11] my he he you just can't if you're not in [99:14] touch with people it just naturally [99:16] happens so when I went away my fear was [99:19] that was going to happen to me and my [99:20] wife so I did all I wanted I told I told [99:23] you want to lock me up lock me up just [99:25] give me my phone calls and give me my [99:26] visits I don't care what you do I'll [99:28] take everything else but don't take my [99:30] phone call don't take my visit I'm not [99:32] going to do anything that will cause you [99:34] to do that so don't do it that's all I [99:35] cared about because I wanted to maintain [99:37] a relationship with my wife and she [99:40] stuck by you she did she did eight years [99:44] that I did she stuck by me and she was [99:46] young she had a great mom good Christian [99:49] mom who held her up our church at that [99:53] time Westwood Hills Christian Church [99:55] they rallied around my wife and me and [99:57] my kids we had little babies back then [100:00] um and she stood up when I went I I did [100:03] five years I was home for 13 months very [100:07] difficult 13 months it was de contract [100:10] on my life people wanted to kill me and [100:12] government was all over me to become a [100:14] witness and I had a very tough time I [100:17] violated my parole and when I went in [100:20] the feds told her you're never going to [100:22] see your husband free again again we're [100:24] inditing him on another case we violated [100:26] his parole he's done he may as well pack [100:28] it [100:28] up and she had a breakdown on me at that [100:31] point she probably couldn't see me for [100:33] about six or seven weeks she didn't come [100:34] to visit can you imagine what life would [100:37] have been like in solitary if she had [100:40] decided that it was all too much for her [100:43] I would have been bitter and and [100:46] resentful I I don't think I would have [100:48] come out of there the [100:50] same I really don't [100:53] um cuz she meant that much to me still [100:56] does but cuz I did everything for her [100:59] basically you know I mean she was the [101:02] reason why I left that life even though [101:04] I knew it was a bad [101:06] life I wouldn't have left I was so [101:08] indoctrinated Steve when I walked into [101:11] that room that night I thought I was [101:13] going to die and yet I walked into the [101:15] room wow what a hero it wasn't heroic it [101:19] was [101:19] robotic I was so much a part of that [101:22] life I had seen so much said well it's [101:24] my turn it's my turn wasn't her Rogue I [101:26] was scared out of my mind my knees were [101:28] weak my heart was stumping out of my [101:30] chest you know and I still didn't want [101:32] them to realize that I was that scared [101:34] but I was really scared which room the [101:36] room your father ton night they walked [101:37] me I told you they they walk me into [101:39] that room and I didn't know if I was [101:40] going to you know that's one of the [101:42] horrors of that life the night my dad [101:44] betrayed me you your dad you walked into [101:47] that room that night with the bosses [101:49] there and a lot of other people there [101:50] and your dad there he wasn't there oh he [101:52] was left already he had left already Yes [101:55] they they talked to us uh separately and [101:59] when they had a conversation with him [102:01] had they told him that you were going to [102:03] there was going to be a contract on you [102:05] I they didn't tell him that but they [102:07] were fishing to find out if there was a [102:10] reason for it to happen you in other [102:14] words if I believe now this is my [102:17] perception of that night there was two [102:19] reasons they walked me in one of two [102:21] number one trying to scare me to let me [102:24] know you may be making all this money [102:27] you may have this big crew that article [102:29] came out in the paper but we're the boss [102:32] you try to make a move you're going to [102:33] die that's what I think that was it was [102:36] either that [102:37] or they really believed I was doing [102:40] something wrong and they were going to [102:41] try to take over the business now again [102:45] remember one of the safeguards I never [102:47] let him meet that guy and I never L him [102:49] my crew was my crew I didn't bring them [102:51] around they were my guys [102:53] and when we fell nobody no maid guy fell [102:57] with us it was only my crew so I [102:59] protected them in that way but but in [103:01] another way I was safeguarding my [103:04] business so were they going to look for [103:07] an excuse that night to take me out very [103:09] possibly and you think your dad might [103:11] have been aware of that [103:13] yes in a way yes [103:16] because and again I've struggled with [103:19] this too okay Dad you you betrayed me [103:21] that night you threw me under the bus he [103:23] didn't say well my son did this wrong my [103:25] son did that he didn't do that he just [103:27] said I don't [103:28] know I can't tell you I don't know and [103:31] that was [103:32] damaging he didn't stand up for me how'd [103:35] you know he didn't Jimmy told [103:38] me and I approached my father two years [103:40] later he denied it I said Dad I know you [103:43] did it it was confirmed I know you did I [103:45] know what you did but it's okay I love [103:47] you it's all right I get it I understand [103:49] the life I get it what did Jimmy tell [103:50] you told me your father threw you under [103:52] the BT he didn't help you one bit it's [103:54] exact words he didn't help you one bit [103:56] he hurt you in there [103:59] tonight and you know it was [104:03] devastating have you forgiven him for [104:05] that absolutely forgave him you know [104:10] something happens to you in that in that [104:12] life you know it's it's like what's [104:15] right is wrong what's wrong is right you [104:17] justify certain things but I understood [104:19] cuz that night I mean what kind of [104:21] insanity to walk into a room when you [104:23] think you're going to get killed or you [104:25] think you might get that's your [104:26] perception whether it's real or not [104:28] that's your perception okay people say [104:31] why didn't you cut and [104:32] run [104:34] robotic okay I was so consumed by the [104:37] life [104:38] so this was me okay I'm gonna die [104:42] tonight scared of course I was scared no [104:45] I'm not ashamed of it not at all I mean [104:49] I know that door opened I almost fainted [104:51] probably I don't know I because I know a [104:53] setup you know I walk in it would have [104:55] been over quick so when that door was [104:57] going to open I I almost fainted but I [105:01] can tell you this what I believe now as [105:02] a person of faith I strongly believe [105:05] this that the way my life has turned out [105:08] now two things that bond between my dad [105:12] and me had to be broken it had to be [105:14] broken and I had to realize in my life [105:17] that I could face death if I had to [105:20] because when I walked away from that [105:21] life now I didn't know I was going to [105:22] walk away but when I walked away from [105:23] that life you know contract on my life [105:26] my boss was very upset with me he took [105:28] it very personal he was a tough guy he [105:30] was an oldtime real tough guy and he [105:33] took it very [105:35] personal you know walk away you don't [105:37] walk away from this life we're not [105:38] allowed to do that my dad disowned me [105:40] for a number of years till we patched it [105:43] up when they realized I wasn't going to [105:45] be testifying against everybody because [105:47] they thought I was okay this is what [105:50] he's going to [105:51] do I wasn't interested that they thought [105:54] I was going to go into the witness [105:55] protection program and start hurting [105:56] guys left and right that's not what I [105:58] was going to do never would have done [106:00] that not not in a chance but they didn't [106:03] know because when guys walk away that's [106:05] what they do do you think your dad loved [106:07] you I know he loved me no question I I [106:11] tell you what the problem with my dad [106:13] was his Legend in that life meant [106:16] everything to him I just can't Square [106:18] the fact that he would allow you to walk [106:20] into that room and not defend you with [106:21] the risk of you dying [106:24] and at the same time he loves you I like [106:28] to think that maybe he didn't perceive [106:30] it that way there was some other there [106:33] was some other things playing you know [106:35] this is like uh it was like it's [106:37] Shakespearean in a way my mother who I [106:40] loved very difficult woman I I can tell [106:43] you this she had her issues for whatever [106:46] reason but you know I think my mother [106:49] liked to be my father's wife for time I [106:53] mean she got a lot of attention [106:55] right when I became prominent in that [106:59] life a lot of the attention was not on [107:01] her and I think she she said some things [107:05] to my dad you know that kind of maybe [107:08] got in his head a little bit about me [107:09] maybe I hate to say this it doesn't [107:12] sound right and I don't want people to [107:13] perceive that maybe there was a little [107:15] jealousy or Envy there I don't know [107:17] Steve you know I I've never talked like [107:20] this before and I I don't like to do it [107:22] because it puts my my father in a very [107:24] bad light but sometimes you can play on [107:26] somebody's mind so much you know [107:27] especially a woman that he loved um and [107:30] I know my mother loved me too figure [107:32] this one out there's no question my [107:33] mother loved me but I can't explain what [107:36] took what what dynamic they had going on [107:39] within them I don't [107:40] know but uh maybe he there was some [107:43] resentment there a little bit even [107:45] though face to face I never experienced [107:48] that with him but then this happens in [107:50] that room I don't know I don't think if [107:52] if my dad thought I was going to get [107:54] killed that night I don't think he would [107:55] have gone through it maybe he maybe he [107:59] was in on it you know I don't know maybe [108:01] he said hey let's let's flush my son out [108:03] I don't [108:04] know I don't know and and Jimmy wouldn't [108:07] have known that the guy that drove me so [108:08] I don't know how do you how do you [108:10] square all of this because one of the [108:13] things I think all human beings love [108:14] need regardless of how tough they are is [108:17] love yeah [108:20] absolutely absolutely and [108:24] listen I I got my relationship with my [108:27] dad was never the same especially after [108:30] I walked [108:32] away uh you know when when we didn't [108:35] speak for about 10 [108:37] years and then when I got out of prison [108:39] and he was on Parole and we realized he [108:42] realized I wasn't hurting [108:44] anybody he said I want to see you called [108:48] me I said okay he said I'm going to meet [108:49] you in such and such a place I said nope [108:52] I'll meet you at the house your house [108:54] not going anywhere to meet you Dad [108:56] almost a little mistrust there I'm going [108:59] to be honest you know and so I go to see [109:02] him at uh I go to his house 5:30 in the [109:05] morning CU I was on Parole had a record [109:07] at that time I didn't know if I was [109:08] allowed to see him you know another [109:11] violation he was on PE I was on PE why [109:13] did you get to his house I knew my mom [109:15] was there and I'm in his house I don't [109:16] have to worry about I wasn't going to go [109:18] anywhere where somebody else could have [109:20] been there you know and I knew my dad [109:22] wouldn't never do anything in his house [109:24] that's my feeling so I seen him was 5:30 [109:27] in the morning I opened the door and [109:29] he's standing there arms folded he looks [109:30] at me and his first words to me he said [109:34] if you would have listened to me you [109:35] would have been the boss of the Columbo [109:38] family and I looked at him I said Dad [109:40] are you in the Twilight Zone or [109:42] something I said I serve a different [109:44] Master right now and he looked to me and [109:47] he said do you mean this bible stuff is [109:49] for real with you because I had turned [109:50] Christian at that point I said yeah it's [109:52] for real [109:53] he said okay let's talk and that's kind [109:55] of how we broke the ice and we spent 3 [109:57] hours talking and going over a lot of [109:59] the stuff that happened and you know [110:01] some of the a anger I had in me I [110:05] expressed to him you know and some of [110:08] the things he said you know he what he [110:11] said to [110:12] me and I said him I said to him if [110:14] you're UNC I said I'm not going back in [110:16] that life I said dead you see I I wasn't [110:18] here to hurt anybody but if there's [110:20] things that you don't want to express [110:21] just don't tell me I don't want to hear [110:22] hear it I mean it was a very open hard [110:26] conversation that he and I had but it [110:27] was good cuz we came to an agreement and [110:30] terms after that you know one of the [110:32] things Steve the about you know the the [110:34] mob genre on social media is like people [110:37] talk and they say think they don't know [110:39] what really went on with me and my dad [110:40] and in our personal conversations and [110:43] all of that and you know well you know [110:46] you never want to see your dad when your [110:47] dad died you didn't go to you didn't go [110:49] to his funeral and I didn't go and I [110:52] didn't go for a reason cuz number one I [110:54] knew who else was going to be there I'm [110:56] not going to go there and be the center [110:57] of attention or maybe have something [110:59] happen at my dad's funeral if somebody [111:01] wants to make remarks for me and then [111:03] we're going to it's going to be a bad [111:05] time in there I've respected my dad [111:07] enough to do that I went to visit him [111:09] privately I didn't need to make a show [111:10] or display out of it and actually people [111:13] say to me Michael you better off not [111:14] going you know you don't who knows if [111:16] there's going to be a scene because I'd [111:17] walked away from that life other guys [111:19] might have been friends of my father [111:20] might have showed up and it could have [111:22] been confrontational I don't need to do [111:24] that I'm not looking to put up put on a [111:25] show you know so but guys make remarks [111:28] oh you didn't care about your father [111:29] they don't know they don't know what [111:31] went on personally between us none of [111:33] their business this is probably the most [111:35] open conversation I've ever had about it [111:37] publicly maybe at all I don't talk about [111:41] it what are the stories that you're [111:43] unable to tell about your time in the [111:46] mafia you don't have to tell me the [111:47] stories because you're unable to tell [111:49] them but what are the nature of those [111:50] stories that you're unable to tell cuz [111:51] you do a lot of interviews these days [111:53] you're on podc you speak [111:55] now you know I mean look it's like I [111:58] said there was a lot of guys that I knew [112:00] that were gone you know just not there [112:03] any you know I'll give you an example [112:05] was a guy that uh was around my dad then [112:08] became around me I was his captain and [112:10] and uh he got involved in a drug [112:13] deal with with somebody that was higher [112:16] up so he came to me I was at a funeral [112:20] parlor and he came to me and he told me [112:22] what happened [112:23] and I got mad I said Tony what is the [112:25] matter with you you've been around all [112:26] this how the heck did you let this [112:28] happen I said don't worry about it I'm [112:31] going to straighten it out and we were [112:33] at a funeral of a guy that got killed [112:36] and he said to me you couldn't straight [112:37] that one out Michael I said don't [112:39] compare the two situations this was [112:41] something else I said don't worry about [112:44] it I'm going to handle it he said Mike [112:45] they're not going to walk me into a room [112:47] I said it's not going to happen relax I [112:50] promise you I'll take care of you you've [112:52] been around you're a good soldier you've [112:54] been around a long time you got a lot of [112:56] respect don't worry about it you made a [112:57] stupid mistake we'll clear it I get on [113:00] my plane I go to Florida my movie was [113:02] being made down there and I go to [113:05] Florida I get off the plane one of my [113:07] guys calls me up he says mike you're not [113:09] going to believe this what he said Tony [113:11] went into a foone booth and blew his [113:13] brains out he was an old time I so [113:16] afraid he said I'm not going out [113:17] nobody's going to take me out walking me [113:19] into a room and he did it himself [113:22] so you see things like that in that life [113:25] and it it's like you know I don't know [113:29] what to say you know how are [113:31] you I'm good you know if I if your wife [113:35] is in a room over there in the Green [113:37] Room over there in another building um [113:39] if I were to ask her if I was if I were [113:41] to say what what are the type of type of [113:43] things that Michael struggles [113:45] with what would you say to [113:48] me well cuz if you ask my girlfriend [113:50] that you'd get a laundry list so [113:53] I imagine your wife would say you [113:56] know what do I struggle with in the [113:58] family you know it's funny I'm on the [114:00] street I got all this stuff going for me [114:02] in my house I'm just dad you know [114:04] sometimes I get mad my kids take [114:05] advantage of me I said I go out of my [114:07] way for all of you you don't do anything [114:09] in return you know you guys don't [114:10] appreciate anything I guess I still have [114:13] that you know I'm a pretty giving guy [114:15] Steve you know I give you everything I [114:18] can possibly give you just you don't [114:20] have to give it back to me just treat me [114:23] right respect is a lot if I feel I'm [114:25] being disrespected I don't like it even [114:27] to tell my wife sometimes she he [114:29] struggles with you know the littlest [114:30] thing he thinks it's disrespect can't [114:32] help it that's my nature you know I [114:34] don't like that I have a guy now you [114:36] know you're trying to call him up he [114:37] doesn't call you back for two three days [114:39] that's [114:40] disrespectful you know it's I don't like [114:42] stuff like that I struggle with it [114:44] because I see a lot of it around [114:46] around um you know I don't know what [114:49] else when people come to you and they [114:51] ask because you've been a speaker for [114:52] some time now mhm about two decades [114:54] almost 25 years actually 25 years what [114:56] are the key things that people approach [114:58] you to speak about based on your [115:00] experience well it's a number I mean [115:02] look everybody wants to hear the mob [115:03] story there's Intrigue with the mob [115:05] story worldwide and I never realized [115:08] that when I was in the life until I [115:10] became what I am now and all over the [115:12] world people are fascinated with more [115:14] than any other criminal group they're [115:16] fascinated with the mafia media why of [115:19] course all the great movies you know Al [115:21] Capone John Gotti bigger than life all [115:23] that stuff so there's a fascination with [115:25] this life United Kingdom you know two [115:27] tours there people they don't because [115:29] you don't have a mafia there you're [115:31] lucky in that regard but so people want [115:34] to hear that but then they want to hear [115:37] how that life has impacted me how I've [115:38] been able to get out of it and still you [115:41] know succeed in a way in their [115:43] perception I'm succeeding and um but [115:46] you'll be surprised with this Steve [115:48] whenever I open it up for a Q&A which is [115:50] awful you think you're going to hear all [115:51] the mob questions you don't you know [115:53] what it is how did your wife react with [115:56] you after being away so long how did you [115:58] patch that up how did your kids react to [116:00] you how were you able to adjust you know [116:03] did you feel you were doing the right [116:05] thing how is your struggles people and [116:07] I'm saying to myself these people might [116:09] be going through these same things in a [116:11] different way and wow I came out of a [116:13] tough situation how did I make it can [116:15] they apply it to their own lives people [116:18] are struggling you know and I see it [116:20] more and more and more if I wanted to [116:23] spend my time mentoring to people all [116:25] the time I would I would be overloaded [116:28] just from social media and emails and [116:32] texts that I get and it's it's a good [116:34] feeling don't get me wrong that people [116:37] see something in me that maybe can be [116:38] helpful to them and I pursue it as much [116:41] as I can as a matter of fact I'm [116:42] starting a platform now I think it's [116:44] come to that point you know God has put [116:46] it on my heart that maybe it's time to [116:48] you know offer these people something [116:50] more than just the conversation and so [116:52] we are starting a platform where we can [116:54] create this kind of family or Community [116:56] where not only I can be of assistance [116:58] but my team can and people can start to [117:01] you know uh help one another I think we [117:04] need that more than ever we'll link that [117:06] below if you if you are able to send me [117:08] a link to that so people can check it [117:09] out I I understand why there is Intrigue [117:13] I think a lot of people will be [117:14] intrigued because the mafia you know I [117:16] as I said to you before we start [117:16] recording I haven't watched mafia movies [117:18] I don't really know anything about the [117:19] mafia I've been enlightened today it's [117:20] quite fascinating I feel like I'm going [117:21] to go watch of the movies but the thing [117:23] that I found so compelling is just what [117:25] I can learn from it because I think [117:27] everybody that's lived a anomalous life [117:30] where they've done something different [117:31] and they've walked a different path has [117:33] something different that they've learned [117:34] that is also a fundamental truth IE [117:37] regardless of what you've done um [117:40] whatever Divergent path you've taken [117:41] you've learned a bunch of fundamental [117:43] principles of how the world Works how [117:45] people work how to navigate how to [117:47] survive um and some of those principles [117:49] are super applicable to the today life [117:52] I've learned so much about even business [117:54] the concept of having a sit down you [117:56] know we don't in business we there's not [117:58] enough cander there's not enough honesty [117:59] there's not enough Frank conversations [118:00] in that regard there's lots of emails [118:02] brainstorms this person's on annual [118:04] leave we're going to talk on blah blah [118:06] blah but there's not enough of that [118:07] frankness so those are the things that I [118:09] really wanted to understand if you've [118:10] got any more of those for me in terms of [118:13] how because you're a businessman now and [118:14] you're an entrepreneur in this season of [118:16] life and some of those principles that [118:18] you learned from the mafia days must [118:20] still be absolutely well I'll tell you [118:23] this and I'm sure this is a principle [118:25] that you follow you don't look like a [118:26] micromanager to me well I don't know a [118:28] good are you well I don't know I don't [118:31] know do you know what the honest answer [118:32] is yeah the honest answer is I think and [118:35] you can ask my team privately um [118:37] actually Jack come over [118:39] here yeah yeah yeah no because I [118:41] genuinely want to know the truth I want [118:43] to know the actual truth does your [118:45] microman no Jack you come [118:47] over oh if you got can you speak into [118:49] that mic yeah it can pick you up yeah [118:51] okay Jack 100% [118:53] honesty I think in some areas you can be [118:56] a micromanager but I think in other [118:59] areas you're not and then I think when [119:02] you need to be you [119:04] are yeah I think I think I am and I'm [119:06] not and it's and it's a real dichotomy [119:09] I.E and again this is just my opinion [119:11] well I don't know if I've got the self- [119:12] awareness for this to be accurate but [119:14] tell I okay I think that I'm obsessed [119:17] with the smallest details of a system [119:20] and I like to understand the smallest [119:21] details of a system system to some [119:23] degree and I think when I get to a point [119:25] where I realize honestly this is what it [119:27] is [119:29] that whoever's running that system can [119:32] do it way better than me MH I resign to [119:34] it and I don't I don't feel like I'm I'm [119:36] at all necessary and so this for example [119:40] with this production there's nothing I [119:41] can tell Jack about cameras right [119:44] there's zero I don't know anything about [119:45] these bloody cameras or about what he [119:47] does in postproduction you want to know [119:48] anything about it no good because [119:51] because he's because I trust him but [119:53] there are instances with other team [119:55] members or within other businesses that [119:56] I run where I don't have the trust yet [119:59] and I've always said to my team and [120:00] people don't like this but you can't [120:02] fake trust TR trust for me is evidence [120:05] so like like what how do I describe this [120:08] if I told you to believe that I was the [120:10] spaghetti monster no matter how much you [120:12] wanted to will that and I said I'm going [120:13] to give you a million dollars in cash [120:14] right now if you believe I'm the [120:15] spaghetti monster all of the evidence [120:17] you have says that I'm a human being [120:18] I've got two arms two legs so all you [120:20] could do is lie right but you wouldn't [120:22] actually believe it and I think trust is [120:24] the same like if it's evidence you do or [120:26] don't have I have so much evidence that [120:29] Jack doesn't need to be told anything [120:30] about production because he's you know [120:32] so that's kind of how my how my system [120:34] works so on one end I think a lot of my [120:36] team and I've heard them say in [120:37] interviews before that I've given them [120:39] immense freedom in certain areas and [120:40] then in other elements I think I am I [120:42] can be monarchal about detail and being [120:45] the Leeds well my motto and it's worked [120:47] for me most of the time um when I'm when [120:50] I'm really paying attention I'm older [120:52] now I used to be a little bit different [120:53] when I was younger I was more Hands-On [120:56] but I came to a conclusion early on um [121:00] you can't micromanage because when you [121:01] micromanage you're taking yourself away [121:03] from your best talent and the thing that [121:05] you can contribute to the best in your [121:07] business and um so I always said do what [121:10] I do best delegate the rest and then [121:13] hopefully you have the talent to [121:15] motivate the people and get the most out [121:17] of them so it's it's it's a double sword [121:19] double-edged sword do what you do best [121:22] mhm delegate the rest but motivate [121:24] motivate them to the point where you're [121:25] getting the most out of them that's [121:27] critical that's critical because you [121:29] can't do everything well you know that [121:31] no I know yeah you know and and and it's [121:33] um you know and I always say this too I [121:37] tell people get your personal life in [121:39] order because normally your business is [121:41] going to be a reflection of your [121:42] personal life in some way shape or form [121:44] and you can't do both you can't do one [121:46] well and do the other not good because [121:48] they're going to affect one another so [121:50] have your personal life in order be a [121:52] reflection your business will be a [121:53] reflection of your personal life and if [121:55] you can do that do what you do best [121:59] delegate the rest give your personal [122:01] life in order your business will be a [122:02] reflection to that and and you're going [122:04] to do okay I believe it Michael we have [122:07] a closing tradition on this podcast [122:08] where the last guest leaves a question [122:09] for the next guest not knowing who [122:10] they're going to be leaving it for and [122:13] the question that's been left for you is [122:15] what is one event conversation or [122:17] experience that was your aha light bulb [122:21] that influenced or changed your [122:29] life look I think the unfortunately uh [122:34] you know these are defining [122:36] moments and in the course of my life [122:39] there's been more than one but uh really [122:42] two I I'll boil it down to two one was [122:45] with my dad and during that time when he [122:48] proposed me into the life and the second [122:51] one was with the pastor of the church [122:54] that married me that I hardly [122:57] knew and when we going to get married in [123:00] that church I was with him and my wife [123:03] and for some reason and I was still a [123:06] mob guy at that point I told my wife I [123:08] said I want you to leave I want to speak [123:10] to Dr Taylor Dr myin Taylor he was and [123:13] he was he was a pastor and I sat down [123:14] with him and I said doc you don't know [123:17] my [123:18] background I said but I've done a lot of [123:20] bad things in my life was part of a [123:22] rough lifestyle my wife is telling me [123:25] you know I could be forgiven for these [123:27] things is it possible and he really [123:32] opened up to me and it was a very [123:34] inspiring conversation because I really [123:37] he such a good man I mean I got to know [123:39] and love this man he's passed on now but [123:41] he married us but [123:44] um and he was the one that filled me [123:47] with some hope that yeah well maybe [123:49] maybe I can't turn this around [123:53] because up till then I I didn't know you [123:55] know my wife was a Christian and I was [123:57] marrying her and I respected her for her [123:59] faith but I wasn't buying into it you [124:02] okay you know and my mother-in-law [124:04] strong woman of Faith but I wasn't [124:05] buying into it myself CU I said they [124:08] don't know who I am and then I had this [124:11] conversation and it planted the seeds to [124:14] say you know what maybe there is [124:16] something else maybe I can undo some of [124:19] the thing not undo them but change some [124:20] of the things changed the path of my [124:22] life had it and it was a short time [124:25] maybe half hour the most but [124:29] meaningful and that's ultimately where [124:31] your life began to change yeah you found [124:34] God yes or you found me one of the two I [124:38] don't [124:39] know what is your closing message [124:42] Michael you know it's it's a message um [124:45] hopefully of encouragement and hope you [124:47] know to people that are struggling and [124:49] facing challenges in their life and [124:53] you know you don't always be defeated by [124:55] your past and you're not always defined [124:58] by your past you can change that in many [125:01] cases not in every case but in many [125:03] cases and I think I'm an example of [125:06] that and it's been inspiring to people [125:09] and it's [125:11] extremely rewarding to me to know that [125:14] I've been able to turn it around to a [125:16] point where it's been a positive [125:18] influence on people so I like people to [125:19] know that that's that's what motivates [125:21] me to continue to speaking it's not [125:23] about you know it's about the way people [125:25] react and you see that there's hope it's [125:28] the emails the text the messages hey [125:30] you've inspired me you know you've [125:32] you've given me [125:33] hope and uh I want people to know that [125:37] you know you're not defined by your past [125:39] all the time and you can make changes in [125:41] your life I mean that's certainly one of [125:44] the very inspiring messages you leave me [125:47] with is just this idea that in all of [125:50] our Lives it's going to come in seasons [125:52] and we're able and um we have the [125:55] permission to change with the seasons we [125:58] don't have to be fixed to an identity or [126:00] to a past or to an old job title or to a [126:02] group of people we used to associate [126:04] with at any time we can make the [126:05] decision although it's not going to be [126:07] fast [126:08] to become who we always were I guess you [126:11] know I I as started this conversation [126:13] asking you who you were yeah I I kind of [126:16] suspect you were you you're the same [126:18] person you always were [126:20] fundamentally but circumstances changed [126:23] beliefs have changed your who you're [126:25] accountable has to has changed yes your [126:28] values have become refined you know and [126:30] all these things but it's at the end of [126:32] the day it's the same human being but [126:34] with a different sense sent of [126:36] principles and purpose in their life and [126:39] I look back at my life and it's the same [126:40] I haven't always been great I haven't [126:42] always done good things there were tough [126:43] Parts where I did things that I'm not [126:45] proud of and probably wouldn't say on [126:46] camera too much but um I think that's [126:49] really important I think the the best [126:51] thing for Humanity is that people have a [126:53] chance to evolve and can be forgiven and [126:55] move on and they're they're judged for [126:57] how they show up today your book is [126:59] incredibly inspiring it's also [127:00] incredibly fascinating um Mafia [127:02] democracy by yourself and the forward on [127:04] here is from Rudy Giuliani which I [127:06] thought was hilarious because I know [127:07] that he was an enemy for much of your [127:09] careers and he was trying to destroy you [127:12] give you a 100e sentence he was [127:14] instrumental in imposing some of the [127:16] laws that shut down the mafia's Heyday [127:18] as well and thank you for your honesty [127:21] because although I know it's not always [127:23] easy to recount certain memories from [127:24] certain chapters of our life in doing so [127:26] you Enlighten us to the true nature of [127:28] what it is to be a human and um the [127:30] complexities of what it is to be a human [127:32] and all the forces that are in play in [127:34] all of us at all the all of the time um [127:37] and that's inspiring but it's also [127:38] liberating um because even though we've [127:40] walked very different lives you know [127:42] there's so many similarities and so many [127:43] lessons that I've learned from you so [127:45] thank you Michael I appreciate you well [127:46] I appreciate that and I want to tell you [127:47] I'm very inspired by you you know like I [127:49] said I'm very impressed when somebody at [127:51] a young age has it together works hard [127:54] and uh and reaches the level that you've [127:57] reached at a young age I mean it's very [127:58] inspiring we need you know I hope you [128:01] continue to be uh you know an example of [128:05] somebody that can just really put their [128:07] head to the grind and make it and I've [128:09] I've read up on you and I know that's [128:10] what you've done you've created a great [128:12] great business here and just keep going [128:15] thank you Michael okay thank you got it [128:20] [Music] [128:21] oh [128:23] [Music]