## Background
This episode of 'The Diary Of A CEO' was published on YouTube by host Steven Bartlett on August 29, 2024. According to the page description, the video features Dr. Andrew Huberman, a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at Stanford University School of Medicine and host of the 'Huberman Lab' podcast, discussing actionable biological protocols, dopamine control, and neuroplasticity.
## TL;DR
Dr. Andrew Huberman outlines his personal evolution from a chaotic youth in the skateboarding scene to becoming a Stanford neuroscientist and leading science communicator. He breaks down actionable protocols for adult neuroplasticity, baseline dopamine regulation, sleep hygiene, light exposure, and breaking bad habits using the minimum effective dose of behavioral tools. Moving beyond neurobiology, Huberman reflects candidly on navigating intense public scrutiny, managing personal relationships, overcoming therapeutic hurdles, and the vital role true friendship plays in sustaining physical and mental health.
## Atmosphere & style
The conversation carries an intimate, raw, and highly reflective tone, balancing rigorous scientific explanation with deep emotional vulnerability. Steven Bartlett creates an empathetic, grounded space that allows Huberman to transition smoothly from structured biological advice to candid reflections on personal trauma, past failures, and intense media scrutiny. It feels like an earnest, high-stakes dialogue between friends, marked by moments of quiet introspection, fierce loyalty, and a shared dedication to self-improvement.
## Key takeaways
- [02:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=161s) Huberman's core mission is translating neuroscience into practical, daily protocols while focusing on the beauty and utility of biology.
- [21:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1277s) Overcoming adolescent trauma, parental divorce, and youth behavioral facilities required intentional self-parenting and rigorous physical discipline.
- [42:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2527s) Adult neuroplasticity requires high alertness driven by catecholamines (dopamine and epinephrine), followed by deep sleep or non-sleep deep rest (NSDR) to structurally reorder neural connections.
- [51:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3080s) Writing a single page describing oneself as the exact opposite of a bad habit creates behavioral friction and helps break fixed personal narratives.
- [59:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3544s) Visualizing negative outcomes ('fear setting') for 5 minutes provides a stronger behavioral push to reach goals than positive visualization alone.
- [01:13:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4413s) Dopamine functions like a 'wave pool' or balance scale: massive spikes without effort deplete baseline levels and inevitably lead to an equal and opposite neurochemical drop.
- [01:17:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4644s) Resetting baseline dopamine dynamics after addiction or compulsive behavior requires 30 to 60 days of total abstinence.
- [01:26:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5169s) Cold plunges and cold showers provide neurochemical benefits by generating sustained spikes in dopamine and adrenaline, though their primary value is mental rather than metabolic.
- [01:45:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6344s) 10 to 20 minutes of Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR) or Yoga Nidra can replenish dopamine baseline levels in the striatum and basal ganglia by roughly 60%.
- [01:45:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6337s) Getting outdoor morning sunlight triggers a vital cortisol surge that sharpens focus, boosts daytime energy, and sets the circadian clock for night sleep.
- [01:56:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7001s) Adhering strictly to an unprocessed whole-food diet rewires the brain's association between taste and caloric density, making processed foods taste unpleasantly sweet or greasy.
- [02:21:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=8519s) Digital pornography produces effortless dopamine spikes that depress baseline dopamine levels, elevate prolactin, and diminish real-world relationship satisfaction.
- [02:44:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9872s) Exchanging a daily 'good morning' text with a trusted friend provides a low-barrier biological signal of connection that helps counteract social isolation.
- [02:56:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10599s) True friendship relies on showing up physically and consistently during personal crises rather than sending superficial words or transactional messages.
- [03:30:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12624s) Effective therapy avoids 'story fondling'—endlessly recounting past narratives—and instead utilizes frameworks like the 'compassionate observer' to create actionable change.
- [03:40:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13209s) Pursuing fame strips away personal freedom, whereas genuine fulfillment is built on physical safety, solid relationships, and quiet creative freedom.
## Detailed walkthrough
Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of the transcript segment:
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=0s) Teaser, Introductions, and the Power of Friendship
Andrew Huberman visibly emotional, touching upon a period where his life took a sudden, catastrophic turn after everything had been going well—noting that "things were going well in my life and then one day just crack, everything came crashing down." He emphasizes the transformative power of true friendship, recalling how friends stepped up to support him during his darkest moments. He fondly recounts a specific instance where he looked up and unexpected friends, like Lex Fridman, were sitting in his room to pick him up and remind him of who he truly is, expressing immense gratitude for that support.
Following this opening, host Steven Bartlett introduces Dr. Andrew Huberman as a world-renowned Stanford professor, neuroscientist, and podcast host who has revolutionized how people understand the human brain, break bad habits, and achieve peak performance. Huberman reflects on his own journey—sharing that as a child, he felt scared, depressed, and confused after his parents split up, which eventually led to fights and time spent in a residential treatment program before he finally decided to take control of his life.
The overview segues into core neurological topics, with Huberman introducing zero-cost behavioral tools to rewrite brain circuitry. He introduces a graph illustrating how dopamine functions like a "wave pool" across all areas of life (whether food, exercise, work, or sex). Pushing pursuits to the absolute maximum leaves a person depleted, understimulated, and requiring vastly more energy to achieve the same output. When individuals are in a dopamine-depleted trough, their instinct is often to seek out high-dopamine triggers to reactivate the circuit, which only drives them further into depletion.
Prior to diving into the deep science, Steven Bartlett takes a moment to express immense gratitude to his audience for reaching 7 million YouTube subscribers. He thanks the 50-person team behind *The Diary Of A CEO* and announces the continuation of their monthly subscriber giveaway raffle, offering prizes like meetings with him, event invites, and £1,000 gift vouchers.
### [02:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=161s) Huberman’s Life Mission and Why His Message Resonates
Steven Bartlett asks Huberman to distill his overarching life mission into one or two sentences. Huberman replies that his core purpose is "to share the beauty and utility of biology" so people understand the extraordinary mechanics of the human body and brain. He explains that even a foundational understanding of how our system interacts with light, temperature, exercise, thoughts, and emotions can yield profound improvements in health and everyday life.
Addressing why his work has exploded into a global cultural phenomenon, Huberman explains that human beings possess an inherent curiosity about themselves and their species—why we feel the way we do, why others act as they do, and how to become the best version of ourselves. Neuroscience and biology provide a clear, objective lens into these questions. Huberman highlights his unique combination of roles: he is both an academic scientist running a lab and a lifelong practitioner interested in sports, psychology, and self-optimization protocols.
He notes that while he is a tenured faculty member at Stanford University, he has intentionally shrunk his research laboratory over the past year to focus on translating peer-reviewed papers into actionable, practical protocols. Rather than diluting or "dumbing down" science into brief 90-second soundbites, he consciously chose to produce exhaustive one-to-four-hour deep-dive lectures. He believes people have a nearly infinite capacity to learn complex information if it is explained with clarity, rather than obscured by unnecessary jargon.
### [05:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=355s) Huberman's Unconventional Upbringing, Skateboarding, and Feral Youth
Steven Bartlett notes that Huberman's background is surprisingly non-linear and full of hardship, creating a stark contrast with the disciplined figure sitting before him today. Huberman acknowledges that his journey involved adventure, transformation, and adversity, though he humbly notes his life has been both easier and harder than others'. He traces his traits back to an intense, early curiosity, a desire for first-hand adventure, and a forward-leaning "intensity" that he has had since childhood.
His early childhood in coastal California was conventional and warm. His father was an Argentine theoretical physicist who moved to the United States for graduate school, while his mother was a writer and teacher focused primarily on raising the family. Young Huberman was obsessed with biology—particularly tropical birds and aquaria (fish)—and would routinely give impromptu biology lectures to his elementary school classmates to prevent himself from getting distracted or disrupting others.
This stability collapsed during his adolescence when his parents went through a high-conflict divorce. The family dynamic unravelled, leaving Huberman in a "feral" state. Seeking community without parental oversight, he gravitated toward the nascent DIY skateboarding and punk rock scenes of the late 1980s and early 1990s. He highlights how different the culture was back then—long before the X Games or major corporate sponsorships existed. Through this scene, he rubbed shoulders with future icons like Tony Hawk, Danny Way, and Colin McKay, as well as the founders of major action sports brands like DC Shoes.
Although Huberman was deeply driven, he admits he was not a naturally gifted skateboarder and frequently sustained injuries. He admits that he stopped attending school regularly during this era—a path he explicitly advises young viewers against, emphasizing the importance of getting a foundational education while the brain is young and hyperplastic. While he witnessed significant street violence and drug use around him, he fortunately never developed a personal inclination toward substance abuse.
- **Current Age:** 48 years old (noting he is "49 now, or almost 49").
- **Family Background:** Father is an Argentine theoretical physicist; mother is a writer and teacher.
- **Early Passions:** Tropical birds, aquaria/fish, skateboarding, and punk rock culture.
- **Key Skateboard Figures Mentioned:** Tony Hawk, Danny Way, Colin McKay, and the founders of DC Shoes.
### [11:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=673s) The Catalyst of Physical Training and the Escalation to Crisis
At age 16, Huberman got his first serious girlfriend and began drifting away from the skateboarding scene due to repeated injuries, such as breaking his foot. Realizing he wasn't excelling in school or skateboarding, he decided he needed a realistic path to support himself and his girlfriend, deciding he wanted to become a firefighter.
To prepare for the physical demands of the fire service, he began resistance training and long-distance running. He notes that in the early 1990s, weightlifting was not mainstream and was largely reserved for bodybuilders, football players, or military recruits. Though he was extremely skinny and had grown a full foot in height over a short period, consistent physical training produced immediate, measurable results:
> "I couldn't do a single pull-up when I started... and within, you know, a summer I could do pull-ups... I thought, 'Wow, like there's this remarkable relationship between doing physical effort and kind of ability or outcome.'"
Unlike skateboarding—where maximum effort did not always guarantee improved skill or prevention of injury—running cross-country and lifting weights offered a direct, predictable cause-and-effect loop. He realized that pushing through the burn on a hill run directly translated to better conditioning the next time. From age 16 onward, physical conditioning became a permanent fixture of his weekly routine.
However, his personal life remained unstable. When his girlfriend left for college a year ahead of him, Huberman spent much of his time living out of his car or her dorm room. He eventually gained admission to college, but his freshman year descended into chaos. He skipped classes, worked a low-paying job delivering bagels, and routinely got involved in violent physical altercations.
The turning point occurred nearly 30 years prior to the recording, on July 4, 1994. While attending an Independence Day barbecue, a massive brawl broke out when Huberman confronted a group of people attempting to rob the house. While no one was fatally injured and their belongings were recovered, the gravity of the crisis hit him hard. Sitting alone afterward at just 18 years old, he realized he was on a path to nowhere—failing out of school, fighting in the streets, and lacking a clear future.
Determined to break the cycle, Huberman wrote a pivotal, transformative letter to himself and his parents declaring that he was going to completely turn his life around. He took a formal leave of absence from his university, moved back home, took a job as a restaurant busboy, maintained his strict exercise regimen, and enrolled in a local community college to rebuild his academic foundation from the ground up.
- **Turning Point Date:** July 4, 1994 (occurring at a 4th of July barbecue).
- **Key Connections:** His girlfriend at the time lived with the future wife of musician Jack Johnson, who also remembers that pivotal party.
- **Job History:** Delivers bagels at a bagel shop, works as a restaurant busboy.
[15:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=938s) Academic Rebirth, the "All In" Focus, and Early Career Trajectory
After deciding to turn his life around, Andrew Huberman leveraged California’s community college system to completely reset his academic trajectory. He made filling his mind with formal, rigorous coursework his primary mission, trusting his baseline ability to learn. While he already possessed deep, self-taught knowledge about tropical fish, skateboarding, punk rock music, and physical training, he redirected that same intensity into structured academics. To build physical strength and capabilities—focusing on raw power, running speed, and distance rather than muscle hypertrophy—he sought out elite mentorship, including insights from the late Mike Mentzer (who had famously trained Dorian Yates), and devoured books on fitness and rehabilitation.
```
Community College / Re-enrollment
│
▼
Voracious Learning (Math, Science, Literature)
│
▼
Undergraduate Studies (Straight A's, Minimal Distractions)
│
▼
Master's at UC Berkeley ──► PhD ──► Postdoc at Stanford
│
▼
Tenured Professorship (UC San Diego ──► Stanford)
```
After a year of intensive studying, he returned to university, lived alone in a modest studio apartment, and pared his life down to the bare essentials: studying, working out, running, hanging out with his girlfriend, and listening to early '90s punk rock (such as Rancid and Operation Ivy), Bob Dylan, and classical music while studying. He went from a troubled freshman known for getting into fights to a straight-A student whose peers barely recognized him. Apart from allowing himself a single night out per month to party, he stayed completely committed and away from drugs, eventually graduating with honors. From there, he earned a Master’s degree at UC Berkeley, completed his PhD, did a postdoctoral fellowship at Stanford, and established his first laboratory at UC San Diego before being recruited back to Stanford as a tenured professor of neuroscience.
- **Mentors & Influences:** Mike Mentzer (training methodologies), Barbara Chapman (graduate advisor at UC Berkeley).
- **Musical Playlist:** Rancid, Operation Ivy, Bob Dylan, and classical study music.
- **Academic Milestones:** Graduated undergraduate with honors $\rightarrow$ UC Berkeley (Master's) $\rightarrow$ PhD $\rightarrow$ Stanford (Postdoc) $\rightarrow$ UC San Diego (Faculty) $\rightarrow$ Stanford (Tenured Professor).
---
[18:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1113s) The Birth of *Huberman Lab* and Personal Sacrifices
In 2019, Huberman began sharing purely educational, "nerdy" neuroscience topics on Instagram—discussing light, the eyes, and dopamine simply for the joy of teaching, much as he had shared facts about tropical fish as a child. By 2020, while planning to release a book, he hired public relations specialist Rob Moore. When the COVID-19 pandemic hit, they paused the book release, and Huberman instead appeared as a guest on 20 to 30 podcasts throughout 2020 without promoting any product or website. On January 1, 2021, while staying in a small canyon retreat in Los Angeles with his bulldog Costello, he and Rob Moore launched the *Huberman Lab* podcast.
```
2019: Instagram Science Posts (No protocols, just raw neuroscience)
│
2020: Pandemic Hits ──► Pauses Book ──► Guest on 20–30 Podcasts
│
Jan 1, 2021: Launches 'Huberman Lab' Podcast with Rob Moore & Costello
```
Huberman reflects that while his career arc appears smooth in hindsight, it involved significant internal uncertainty, lopsided focus, and personal trade-offs. Choosing to pour his energy into research and education meant delaying marriage and family into his late 40s. Additionally, his journey was marked by the tragic loss of numerous friends over the years to depression, suicide, and substance abuse. Despite these losses, his underlying motivation has remained unchanged: an undeniable drive to explore a topic deeply and share what he learns with anyone willing to listen.
> "I just simply can't pull myself off a desire to learn and adventure through a particular space. And then once I learn things... I can't seem to help but just tell everybody about it."
---
[21:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1274s) Youthful Depression and the Locked-Door Reality of Institutional Care
The conversation shifts to the impact of early life trauma and how personal adversity shapes drive. Huberman recalls his youth at ages 14 and 15, describing himself as a depressed, confused teenager who sat at the back of the classroom with his hoodie pulled down and his head on the desk. The painful breakdown of his parents' marriage, combined with puberty and a lack of clear guidance, left him feeling deeply unsafe and isolated. This emotional distress eventually manifested as truancy and general delinquency.
```
Family Disruption & Puberty
│
▼
Depression, Truancy, & Delinquency
│
▼
Summoned to Counselor's Office
│
▼
Escorted to Residential Treatment Facility (Locked Doors & Group Therapy)
```
One day, after being called into the school counselor's office, outside authorities arrived to escort him away to a residential treatment facility. He vividly recalls the jarring moment he realized his personal freedom had been completely stripped away as the heavy doors locked behind him. The facility was a hybrid between youth detention and a psychiatric hospital, housing delinquent, aggressive, or suicidal youth along with separate units for younger children and adults.
- **Facility Environment:** Locked hallways, mandatory group therapy, one-on-one sessions, and strictly one hour of outdoors exercise per day.
- **Counselor Insight:** A staff member told his unit, "The kids over there and the adults over there, they're crazy. You guys, you're not crazy. You just have problems"—to which another youth dryly noted that the staff was likely telling the other units the exact same thing.
- **Roommate Dynamics:** His assigned roommate looked like Night Stalker Richard Ramirez and struggled with severe self-harm (cutting), yet turned out to be a gentle, troubled kid under the surface.
---
[25:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1535s) Street Education, DIY Skate Culture, and the Hyperfocus Mechanism
Realizing that active participation was his only path to release, Huberman leaned into the therapy process within three days, opening up about his feelings and learning by listening to others. He recognized that his underlying distress stemmed from a lack of safety, acceptance, and parental guardrails. During his teenage years, he had found an escape in the late '80s and early '90s street skateboarding culture, taking buses to San Francisco's famous Embarcadero Plaza (EMB)—a self-organized epicenter of skate culture similar to Love Park in Philadelphia or Washington Square Park in New York.
```
[Street Education / EMB Scene]
├── Self-Organized Skateboarding & DIY Ethos
├── Early Creative Leaders: Jacob Rosenberg, Mike Blabac, Mike Carroll
└── Channeling Raw Energy ──► Academic Hyperfocus (80–100 hr work weeks)
```
The Embarcadero scene exposed him to a raw "street education" alongside older kids who were skipping school and living wildly. Yet, alongside the rough elements, it harbored an inspiring DIY work ethic. He watched friends like Jacob Rosenberg film iconic early skate videos (such as the *Plan B* videos and the Danny Way documentary *Waiting for Lightning*) using Hi8 cameras, while photographer Mike Blabac—who later became the official photographer for the *Huberman Lab* podcast—slept among clothing stacks at a Gap store while mastering action photography.
When Huberman later entered graduate school in Barbara Chapman’s laboratory, he realized he could channel that exact same DIY passion into scientific research. Given the freedom to run experiments, he worked 80 to 100 hours a week, often brushing his teeth in the lab sink and showering at the campus gym without burning out. Drawing on author Martha Beck's concept of an "interest-based attention system" (often overlapping with ADHD), Huberman explains how individuals who struggle with routine focus can display laser-like, "level 11 out of 10" attention when engaged in something they genuinely love.
- **Key Figures from EMB Skate Era:**
- **Mike Carroll, Henry Sanchez, Marc Gonzales:** Iconic street skateboarders of the era.
- **Jacob Rosenberg:** Early Hi8 videographer who filmed *Plan B* videos and *Waiting for Lightning* (Danny Way jumping the Great Wall of China).
- **Mike Blabac:** Legendary action sports photographer and long-time photographer for *Huberman Lab*.
- **Core Concept:** An "interest-based attention system" allows individuals to convert intense personal passions into extraordinary academic or creative productivity.
[31:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1903s) Extreme VR, Great White Sharks, and the Line of Caution
Andrew Huberman recounts his experience starting a lab to study human stress, where he initially sought virtual reality (VR) footage of high-stress scenarios. His friend Michael Muller, an accomplished Hollywood portrait photographer known for shooting great white sharks outside of cages, candidly critiqued the lab's original VR stimulus: "It sucks. It doesn't look real. It's all CGI. It's not scary at all." Muller proposed taking Huberman to Guadalupe Island to film real great white sharks outside of a cage. Huberman became dive-certified and went: the first year he remained in the cage, but during the second year, he ventured outside of it.
During that second dive, Huberman suffered an air failure at depth. He managed to bail out and survive, but describes the experience as extremely terrifying and not something he ever wants to repeat. This incident taught him where to draw the line between productive intensity and recklessness. Reflecting on his idol Oliver Sacks—the famous British-trained neurologist and author behind *Awakenings*—Huberman references an early warning Sacks received from a teacher: "Oliver will go far, provided he does not go too far."
Huberman emphasizes that while curiosity, intensity, and a desire to learn drive progress across any discipline—whether it is podcasting, sports, mathematics, AI, or skateboarding—one cannot be haphazard or reckless. Life presents numerous traps and avenues toward failure and destruction, requiring deliberate, thoughtful forward steps.
* **Oliver Sacks Reference:** British-trained neurologist and author whose work inspired the film *Awakenings*.
* **Guadalupe Island Incident:** Huberman experienced an air failure at depth while swimming with great white sharks outside a cage.
* **Core Philosophy:** Intensity and passion must be balanced with caution to avoid reckless self-destruction.
---
[34:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2057s) Squatting in Isla Vista and the Life-Changing Letter to His Parents
Huberman reflects on a pivotal moment in his late teens when he was living in Isla Vista, California, on Pasado Street. He was essentially squatting for the summer in an unfurnished house with his ferret, Iris—left behind by his first girlfriend after she broke up with him because he "had nothing going on." Having grown up around "feral, parentless" skateboarding kids in Palo Alto (which was upper-middle-class at the time before becoming an ultra-wealthy tech hub), Huberman was accustomed to sleeping anywhere "mummy style"—in cars, vans, or corners—to avoid paying rent and save money.
After getting into a major fight on July 4th, Huberman realized he had reached a crossroads. By the end of that weekend, he sat down and wrote a formal letter to his parents. While his parents had separated and were incompatible (both eventually remarried happily for many years), the chaotic friction surrounding their split had weighed heavily on him. In the letter, he explicitly forgave them, declared that he was taking total control of his own life at 18 (nearly 19), and stated that he would become radically focused and organized. He then wrote an identical letter to himself to externalize his new commitment.
When Huberman returned to school with relentless focus, his ex-girlfriend reunited with him and remarked a year later: "You've become a monster... a monster of learning and class and getting up early, and you tuck your shirt in." Rejecting the casual beach culture of Isla Vista—where everyone rode beach cruisers in flip-flops and baggy clothes—Huberman began wearing collared shirts, belts, and dressing with extreme discipline to go against the grain. In essence, he began parenting himself.
> "I basically was parenting myself. And I think that this is something that I learned how to do early on. I love my parents, but I learned how to mother and father myself. And that was powerful."
* **Location:** Pasado Street in Isla Vista, California.
* **Key Companion:** A ferret named Iris.
* **Turning Point:** July 4th fight at age 18, leading to a self-parenting manifesto written to his parents and himself.
* **Tragic Reality:** At age 18 or older, consequences become superlinear; Huberman recalls his friend Phil Shaw, a talented skateboarder, who was killed in a drunk driving accident caused by another driver.
---
[38:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2315s) What It Takes to Make a Big Life Change: Fear, School, and Self-Knowledge
When asked what triggers such a dramatic life pivot and whether someone lying on a couch can accelerate that state without experiencing rock-bottom pain, Huberman points directly to **fear**. At almost 19, he had no marketable skills, was not a standout skateboarder or musician, and felt a profound fear of becoming a permanent failure.
Recognizing his strong memory and innate love of learning, he chose higher education as his pathway forward. He references an idea popularized by Ryan Holiday: the people who should explicitly *not* drop out of college are those who are struggling, because the structured academic environment is far easier to navigate than the unstructured real world. In college, syllabi, lectures, office hours, and teaching assistants provide a clear blueprint for success if one simply follows the required steps.
Huberman's academic comeback was driven by intense self-correction. After a rocky first year, he earned straight A's, with one notable exception: a B+ in a neural development course taught by Ben Reese. Pissed off by that single misstep, Huberman carried that signal forward and chose to specialize in neural development in graduate school. He highlights that true transformation requires self-knowledge—knowing one's strengths, recognizing what fills the body with energy, and converting personal weaknesses into functional assets.
* **Primary Driver of Change:** Fear of permanent failure and total lack of direction.
* **Academic Blueprint:** Using structured systems (classes, office hours, professors) to build momentum.
* **The B+ Catalyst:** A B+ grade from professor Ben Reese in neural development drove Huberman to specialize in that exact field in graduate school.
---
[42:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2527s) Neuroplasticity: How to Change Your Brain at Any Age
Huberman transitions to the biological mechanisms of brain change, asserting that identity is not fixed and that anyone can unlearn bad patterns or overcome trauma at any age. He notes that his scientific "great-grandparents," Nobel laureates David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel, formalized the underlying principles of neuroplasticity. Later, researchers like Mike Merzenich demonstrated that neuroplasticity remains active across the entire human lifespan, though the rules governing it shift with age.
Up until approximately age 25, passive experience naturally shapes and rewires the nervous system. After age 25, passive exposure is insufficient; driving neuroplasticity requires a distinct shift in the brain's neurochemical environment. This state shift is triggered by the release of **catecholamines**—specifically dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine. These chemicals heighten alertness, narrow the visual and auditory fields into focused "attention cones," and mark specific neural circuits for modification. Once this alert focus is achieved, the actual structural reordering of neural connections occurs during subsequent deep sleep.
Huberman clarifies that the brain does not change constantly from every minor interaction; it only changes when necessary. While traumatic single-trial events induce immediate plasticity due to massive spikes in adrenaline, conscious learning requires deliberate, focused attention followed by restorative rest to consolidate new neural pathways permanently.
* **Key Figures in Plasticity Research:** David Hubel, Torsten Wiesel (Nobel Prize winners), and Mike Merzenich.
* **Age Threshold:** ~25 years old marks the boundary between passive plasticity and effortful, chemical-driven plasticity.
* **Required Triggers for Adult Plasticity:**
* High alertness and intense focus driven by catecholamines (dopamine, epinephrine, norepinephrine).
* Deep sleep in the following 24–48 hours to consolidate the reordered neural connections.
[47:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2859s) Emotional Stimuli, Fear, and Adult Neuroplasticity
The intensity with which teenagers process reality is driven by a unique chemical mix. In adolescence, the body is flooded with hormones and neuromodulators, causing seemingly trivial events—like hearing a specific song—to take on immense personal meaning and create a powerful neurochemical milieu. As an adult, however, the nervous system requires a much stronger stimulus to trigger structural changes. Falling deeply in love or being profoundly moved by a work of art can forever transform an adult brain, but merely browsing artwork at the Metropolitan Museum of Art will not stamp every image into memory. The nervous system operates with strict energy efficiency: it only changes when forced to, particularly when survival or safety is at stake. Because of this, fear exerts an asymmetric, powerful influence compared to mild interest when it comes to shifting brain circuitry.
Despite the dominant power of fear, positive stimuli like love, excitement, and deep appreciation remain remarkably potent drivers of adult neuroplasticity. Record producer Rick Rubin often emphasizes how experiencing love for a creation or idea fundamental reshapes the mind; though not a formal neuroscientist, his intuitive approach to artistic experience aligns closely with biological principles. To successfully rewire the adult brain, one must pay active attention to the target behavior or concept while remaining completely alert, followed by deep rest or sleep, as the physical cellular rewiring occurs entirely during restful and meditative states.
* **Teenage vs. Adult Sensitivity:** Trivial events carry massive emotional weight during adolescence due to high hormone and neuromodulator levels; adults require significantly stronger stimuli to induce similar neuroplastic changes.
* **Safety and Asymmetrical Drive:** The brain prioritize changes that keep the organism safe, giving fear a stronger capacity to reshape neural circuits than passive curiosity.
* **The Mechanics of Rewiring:** True structural brain changes demand active attention during the initial learning phase, but the physical reordering of neural connections takes place afterward during sleep and states of deep rest.
---
[49:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2969s) Debunking the Myth of Aging Brains
The adage "you can't teach an old dog new tricks" is a psychological myth rather than a biological reality. While older individuals often become set in their ways due to comfortable routines or an ingrained belief that change is impossible, the brain retains its capacity for neuroplasticity across an entire lifetime. Landmark studies conducted at the Salk Institute in San Diego demonstrated that even elderly individuals in their 80s and 90s continue to generate new brain cells. In these studies, terminally ill patients consented to receive a specialized tracer dye that incorporated into newly forming cells. Post-mortem microscopic analysis of their brains revealed the presence of newly added neurons, proving that neurogenesis persists even at the far end of the human lifespan.
> "If you want to learn, you can learn. And that learning occurs through neuroplasticity, which is the reordering of neural connections, strengthening of certain connections, weakening of others, and in some rare cases the addition of new neurons, but brain change is absolutely real at every stage of life."
While the addition of brand-new neurons is relatively rare in adult human learning, neuroplasticity primarily operates by reordering existing connections—strengthening key pathways while weakening inactive ones. Whether a person is 50, 70, or 90 years old, the underlying biological mechanism for learning remains fully functional.
* **Salk Institute Findings:** Studies on elderly individuals aged 80 to 90 confirmed active neurogenesis through post-mortem tissue analysis using cellular tracer dyes.
* **Maximum Lifespan Context:** While the maximum human lifespan reaches approximately 120 years, neuroplastic capacity remains intact regardless of advanced age.
* **Primary Mechanism of Learning:** Learning in adults is largely driven by synaptic reorganization—strengthening or weakening existing pathways—rather than relying solely on the birth of new neurons.
---
[51:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3080s) Storytelling, Identity, and Breaking Bad Habits
Personal identity and persistent habits are heavily shaped by internal narratives. Host Steven Bartlett shares how growing up in an extraordinarily chaotic environment—featuring holes punched in doors, unkempt grounds with six-foot-high garden weeds, and rooms filled floor-to-ceiling like a hoarder's home—led him to adopt a lifelong habit of personal messiness. Having accepted this messiness as an unchangeable trait hardwired into his identity since childhood, he highlights a common psychological trap: accepting negative behaviors simply because they are tied to past experiences.
```
┌───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
│ HABIT DISRUPTION WORKFLOW │
└───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
│
▼
Identify Internal Story
("I am an untidy person by nature")
│
▼
Interrogate & Interrupt
("Why do I believe this? Is it absolute?")
│
▼
Write Counter-Narrative
("I am a highly structured person")
│
▼
Disrupt Daily Fluency
(Breaks default automatic behaviors)
```
In contrast to visual chaos impairing focus, many highly effective individuals operate exceptionally well amidst clutter. Neuroscientist Ben Barres, Huberman's late post-doctoral advisor, kept massive piles of papers across his office yet possessed an uncanny, laser-like internal map of every document's location, explicitly warning others not to clean his workspace lest his organization system be disrupted. Human minds organize reality through structured narratives rather than clinical lists, building stories with distinct beginnings, middles, crescendos, and endings. Educational tools like the "ABC song" rely on vocal inflections and melodic story structures to batch information, demonstrating how deeply narrative fluency controls memory and behavior.
To break a deeply ingrained habit, one must deliberately interrupt the narrative fluency supporting it. Methods like Byron Katie's self-inquiry challenge rigid assumptions by forcing the mind to question its core beliefs. A practical, neuroscience-backed exercise involves writing a single page describing oneself as the exact opposite of the bad habit—such as writing a detailed narrative about being an exceptionally tidy person. Although the mind initially recognizes the writing as untrue, the exercise breaks the automatic, effortless story the brain relies on. This friction interrupts default behaviors right at the moment of action, proving far more effective than passive visual prompts like sticky notes, which lose salience after a single day.
* **Ben Barres's Office Layout:** The renowned scientist maintained chaotic paper piles across his entire workspace yet retained an exact internal map of every item's location.
* **The ABC Song Example:** Children learn the alphabet not as an abstract list, but as a structured narrative song with melodic inflections, pauses, and resolution.
* **Why Sticky Notes Fail:** Reminders on mirrors or monitors quickly lose visual salience, causing the nervous system to ignore them after roughly 24 hours.
* **Disrupting Narrative Fluency:** Writing down a counter-identity disrupts automatic behavior by forcing the brain to spend expensive attentional energy on routine actions.
---
[59:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3544s) The War for Attention and the Role of Manifestation
In the modern environment, mental bandwidth is a finite and heavily contested resource, making the intentional allocation of attention essential. Every morning presents a fundamental choice between acting as a passive consumer or an active creator. Reaching for a smartphone immediately casts a person into the role of a consumer, whereas picking up a journal anchors them as a creator. Highly successful individuals carefully protect their focus by building their skills and ideas in private before broadcasting them to external platforms like Instagram, rather than allowing external platforms to dictate their inner lives.
```
┌───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐
│ CREATOR VS. CONSUMER MINDSET │
└───────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘
│
┌──────────────────┴──────────────────┐
▼ ▼
Morning Phone Use Morning Journaling
(Passive Consumer) (Active Creator)
│ │
▼ ▼
Reacting to the World Building Original Ideas
```
When evaluating manifestation and goal realization through a scientific lens, visualization techniques yield measurable cognitive benefits, though fear-based strategies are often even more effective. Research led by Emily Balcetis at New York University shows that "fear setting"—spending roughly 5 minutes visualizing the negative consequences of failing to achieve a goal—is a remarkably potent tool for habit formation and goal execution. While visualizing positive outcomes helps conceptualize the path forward, pairing it with realistic fear assessment mobilizes the nervous system to take action. Furthermore, as creative figures like Rick Rubin point out, achieving major breakthroughs requires breaking grand ambitions into smaller milestones and following creative impulses without getting bogged down by immediate self-judgment or fear of public reception.
* **Emily Balcetis's Goal Research:** NYU studies demonstrate that spending 5 minutes visualizing negative outcomes ("fear setting") provides a stronger behavioral push than positive visualization alone.
* **Consumer vs. Creator Threshold:** Engaging with a smartphone first thing in the morning trains the brain into passive consumption, whereas journaling establishes creative momentum.
* **Separating Reality from Broadcasting:** Long-term success requires spending neural bandwidth developing skills off-camera, then sharing the results on digital platforms afterward.
[01:02:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3771s) Learning the Optimal Brain-Body State & The Double-Edged Sword of Goal Sharing
Andrew Huberman highlights that achieving complex goals is rarely a single jump to an end result; rather, it is a series of daily iterations. While an academic pursuit like university provides a clear final diploma, most life goals are far more mysterious. Rather than relying solely on abstract visualization, Huberman emphasizes the power of mastering the specific brain and body state required for the task at hand. For example, when sitting down to write extra chapters for his book, if he lacks focus, he spends two to three minutes meditating and concentrating on his breathing. His reasoning is pragmatic: if he cannot focus on his breath for three minutes, he cannot expect to focus on writing for three hours.
The discussion shifts to the psychological effects of sharing your goals. A cardiologist friend at UCSF once warned Huberman about the trap of telling people your plans to launch a podcast or write a book. Supportive friends often offer immediate praise, which triggers a premature internal reward that dampens the drive to actually execute. Conversely, when people are told "you will never succeed," it often causes them to dig in their heels and prove the doubters wrong. However, Huberman debates with Rick Rubin whether operating out of spite or a need to prove oneself creates a friction that harms the final work. Pure delight and love of craft—reminiscent of Huberman's childhood passion for aquariums—is a far more romantic and joyful motivator, but real-world success usually requires a balance of both competition and authentic passion.
- **Mindfulness as a Focus Filter:** Huberman uses 2–3 minutes of breath focus to test and calibrate his mental state before committing to multi-hour deep work sessions.
- **The Social Validation Trap:** Announcing goals prematurely to supportive audiences releases reward signals that lower the motivation required to complete the actual work.
- **Spite vs. Delight:** While proving doubters wrong supplies intense energy, operating purely out of delight and curiosity generates a more sustainable and creative state.
[01:05:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3934s) Competition vs. Creative Delight: How Markets, Science, and Podcasting Differ
Examining Peter Thiel’s concept from *Zero to One*, Huberman notes that competition can act as "anti-creativity." When competing, an individual or organization constantly alters its creations to outmaneuver rivals rather than cultivating an original vision from first principles. Huberman contrasts the hyper-competitive nature of scientific research—where laboratories scramble to publish first to secure scarce journal placements and grant funding—with the podcasting world. In podcasting, two hosts interviewing the same guest actually boost each other in discovery algorithms, creating a collegial environment similar to skateboarding or music. While infinite scientific funding would theoretically unlock purer creativity and faster societal progress, real-world constraints force scientists to rely on competitive pressure to drive outputs.
Steven Bartlett adds that competition becomes destructive the moment it causes a team to deviate from its fundamental mission. He illustrates this with tech giants: if Apple were to abandon its core design philosophy simply to react to Samsung's latest features, competition harms them. However, if Samsung's progress merely prompts Apple to execute its own original vision faster, competition serves a constructive purpose. Both hosts agree that while they admire peers like Joe Rogan, Lex Fridman, and Chris Williamson, trying to imitate them is a mistake. Each creator must bring their unique life history, personal wiring, and distinct energy to their work.
- **Peter Thiel’s Anti-Creativity Rule:** Reacting to competitors forces creators to modify their intrinsic vision to beat someone else, suppressing pure innovation.
- **Academic Science vs. Podcasting:** Academic research is a zero-sum battle for grant dollars and journal space, whereas podcasting benefits from cross-promotional algorithmic synergy.
- **The Distraction Risk in Business:** Strategic competition drives better speed and execution, but it becomes ruinous if it distracts a company from its foundational first principles.
[01:09:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4181s) The Catecholamine Currency: Dopamine, Epinephrine, and Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR)
From a biological perspective, the "energy" or vibe a person brings to their work is driven by a precise chemical cocktail of catecholamines: dopamine, epinephrine (adrenaline), and norepinephrine. This neural triad has governed mammalian goal-directed behavior for hundreds of thousands of years, whether tracking prey, building shelter, or designing modern technology. Dopamine serves primarily as the drive for forward movement and resource-seeking, rather than the sensation of post-achievement pleasure. When individuals navigate uncertainty, hit dead ends, and re-orient toward a promising path, iterative surges of these chemicals keep them in a state of "forward center of mass."
Because these neurochemicals exist in a finite reservoir, unremitting effort leads directly to burnout. Huberman emphasizes the necessity of deliberate rest to replenish these reserves. He highlights Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR)—a structured body-scan and deep-relaxation protocol closely related to ancient Yoga Nidra—as a clinically proven tool to restore neurochemical capacity. Citing a landmark study, Huberman explains that a single session of NSDR can restore dopamine levels in the striatum and basal ganglia by approximately 60% above baseline. This active reset re-arms the brain's action-generation circuits, allowing individuals to return to high-demand tasks with renewed clarity and motivation.
- **The Goal-Seeking Triad:** Dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine form the universal mammalian engine for motivation, alertness, and forward action.
- **NSDR and Dopamine Restoration:** Studies demonstrate that practicing Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR) or Yoga Nidra can raise baseline dopamine in the striatum and basal ganglia by ~60%.
- **Definition of Burnout:** Burnout is biologically defined as attempting to maintain a "forward center of mass" state long after the catecholamine reservoir has been depleted.
[01:13:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4413s) The Wave Pool Analogy and the Seesaw of Dopamine Spikes
To visualize dopamine dynamics, Huberman shares an analogy from endocrinologist Dr. Kyle Gillette: dopamine functions like a wave pool. Pushing hard generates excitement and momentum, but creating massive, unnatural waves causes water to splash out of the pool, draining the baseline reservoir. Referring to Dr. Anna Lembke's book *Dopamine Nation*, Huberman describes dopamine regulation as a balance scale or seesaw. Potent stimulants or recreational drugs like cocaine trigger massive dopamine surges that drive intense, hyper-motivated brainstorming. However, once the substance wears off, the seesaw tilts hard in the opposite direction, dropping dopamine levels significantly below the initial baseline and leaving the individual feeling depressed and unmotivated.
This mechanism also applies to daily habits and high-intensity lifestyle choices. Stacking multiple stimulants—such as pre-workout supplements, extra espresso shots, high-energy music, and intense physical strain—forces a massive release of catecholamines. Doing this occasionally produces a peak workout, but attempting to stack these heavy triggers seven days a week crashes baseline dopamine levels by the afternoon. Huberman cautions against constantly slamming the gas pedal. To sustain long-term high performance and mental sharpness, individuals should learn to train and work without maxing out their neurochemical inputs every day.
- **Dr. Kyle Gillette’s Wave Pool Model:** Large, dramatic dopamine spikes splash fluid out of the pool, depleting the baseline reservoir required for daily drive.
- **Dr. Anna Lembke’s Seesaw Concept:** Every unnatural dopamine peak is followed by an equal and opposite drop below original baseline levels.
- **The Risk of Poly-Stimulant Stacking:** Combining high-dose caffeine, pre-workout formulas, and high-stress environments every day causes afternoon crashes and long-term neurochemical exhaustion.
- **Optimal State for Performance:** The ideal baseline state for sustained cognitive work and health is remaining "alert and calm."
<ElicitationsGroup message="Explore more topics from this interview:">
<Elicitation label="Explain the full NSDR protocol step-by-step" query="How do I perform a Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR) session step-by-step?"/>
<Elicitation label="Summarize Dr. Anna Lembke's Dopamine Nation concepts" query="What are the core principles and takeaways from Dr. Anna Lembke's book Dopamine Nation as discussed by Andrew Huberman?"/>
<Elicitation label="Continue to Part 6 of the walkthrough" query="Please provide the next part of the transcript walkthrough."/>
</ElicitationsGroup>
[01:17:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4644s) The Dopamine Trough and Breaking the Addiction Loop
When people push themselves to the maximum in any area of life—whether through food, exercise, stimulants, sex, or media—they inevitably experience a severe state of depletion and understimulation afterward. Citing Dr. Anna Lembke’s work in *Dopamine Nation*, Andrew Huberman explains that after a massive dopamine peak, levels drop into a severe trough below baseline. Crucially, the depth and duration of this crash are directly proportional to how high the initial peak was, rather than how long the experience lasted.
The trap most people fall into while languishing in this trough is attempting to chase another high to escape the low. This compulsively drives their baseline lower and prolongs the state of depletion. The only true cure for compulsive behavior, addiction, or burnout is a period of total abstinence from those excesses—typically lasting between 30 and 60 days—allowing the nervous system time to reset. For high-performing individuals in tech or finance who constantly blast their catecholamine-regulated circuits with work and stimulants like Adderall, they must accept that they will feel low for a week or two before returning to baseline. Only after resting and finding reward in simpler things, like spending time with a dog, can they re-engage with a healthy, forward center of mass.
* **Abstinence Window:** Most addiction and compulsive behaviors require 30 to 60 days of abstinence to reset the baseline dopamine system.
* **The Glucose Analogy:** Host Steven Bartlett compares the dopamine dynamic to wearing a Continuous Glucose Monitor (CGM)—consuming heavy sugar causes a huge spike followed by a crash below baseline, which triggers intense cravings to eat sugar again.
* **The Chasing Trap:** Trying to reactivate dopamine circuits while in a trough only drives a person deeper and longer into dopamine depletion.
> "Most all addiction, most all compulsive behavior can be cured, essentially, through a period of abstinence lasting somewhere between 30 and 60 days, which to somebody who's highly motivated to seek that thing or do that thing, sounds like an absolute horror. But that is highly effective."
---
[01:20:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4813s) Dynamic Physiological Systems: Allostasis and Stress Modulation
The human body does not operate purely on rigid homeostasis; it is geared toward *allostasis*, a dynamic process of regulating internal states through physiological change and stress modulation. Huberman addresses the common misconception that stress inherently crashes the immune system. In reality, acute stress actually activates the immune system as an evolutionary adaptation to handle immediate danger. This explains why people often get sick the moment they finally stop and take a vacation after working intensely—their stress response drops, the immune system relaxes, and opportunistic viruses take hold.
To navigate these dynamic biological systems effectively, individuals must learn to actively modulate their state rather than operating at full tilt at all times. Borrowing a framework from a former Navy SEAL operator, Huberman categorizes physical and mental readiness into three states: being "back on your heels" (challenged or overwhelmed), "flat-footed" (calm and grounded), or "forward center of mass" (full tilt engagement). Long-term success and career longevity depend entirely on mastering the transition states between these energy levels.
* **Autonomic Self-Regulation:** Self-directed, zero-cost tools like Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR) and deliberate long-exhale breathing shift the autonomic nervous system into a parasympathetic ("rest and digest") state.
* **Morning Mobilization:** Waking up and transitioning into a "forward center of mass" state should ideally occur naturally without over-relying on loud music, alarming emails, or excessive stimulants.
* **Managing Midday Energy:** For individuals who expend 100% of their energy in the morning, taking a 10 to 20-minute midday nap or NSDR session provides the ideal physical and mental reset.
---
[01:26:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5169s) Why More Is Not Always Better: The Minimal Effective Dose
A common biological misconception is that increasing stimulus volume always yields superior results. Whether discussing deliberate cold exposure or strength training, Huberman advocates strictly for finding the "minimal effective dose." Cold plunges and cold showers trigger a sustained, long-duration release of catecholamines—specifically dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine—which drastically improves mood and alertness. However, pushing cold exposure to extreme limits offers diminishing returns and can easily cause harm.
```
+--------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Modality | Recommended Application & Pitfalls |
+--------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Cold Plunge / Shower | Minimal dose: Enter until the urge to exit hits, |
| | push through the barrier briefly, then exit. |
| | Avoid extreme durations (e.g., 30 mins) to prevent|
| | illness and neurochemical depletion. |
+--------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
| Hypertrophy Training | 2-3 hard sets per exercise over 16-20 total sets |
| | per week; prioritize personal recovery quotient |
| | over generalized study averages. |
+--------------------------+---------------------------------------------------+
```
Addressing strength training debates, Huberman pushes back against rigid exercise science rules dictating massive training volumes for every individual. While studies might argue high volume is necessary for hypertrophy, performing 16 to 20 sets per muscle group per week leaves him personally depleted. He emphasizes that while data is valuable, individual recovery quotients vary wildly, and individuals must respect their own physiological feedback over academic averages.
* **Cold Exposure Misconceptions:** Cold plunges do very little for long-term metabolic rate increases; their primary value lies in generating long-lasting adrenaline and dopamine spikes.
* **Extreme Example:** A friend of Huberman's once stayed in a cold plunge naked for 30 minutes, resulting in illness and a severe mood drop due to extreme depletion.
* **Cost Efficiency:** A basic cold shower achieves the exact same neurochemical benefits as an expensive cold plunge unit while saving money on heating bills.
> "We have this fixation that more is better, and more is not better. You want the minimal effective dose, maybe a little bit more, because we don't know where minimal is."
---
[01:27:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5226s) Knowing Your Temperament and Daily Self-Assessment
Human temperaments vary sharply in their baseline energy levels and natural movement tendencies, much like different dog breeds. Pointing to observations made behind the scenes at dog shows, Huberman contrasts hyper-alert breeds like Pitbulls that constantly wag their tails with majestic Great Danes that remain completely still, and English Bulldogs that embody the absolute "economy of effort." Bulldogs sit motionless, barely lifting their heads, yet remain exceptionally powerful.
People with high baseline energy and frequent spontaneous movement—similar to hyperactive dog breeds—often require constant mental stimulation to feel happy. However, these same individuals must actively work to learn how to downshift using tools like the sauna, long-exhale breathing, and NSDR. Conversely, those who naturally operate with lower energy need extra stimulation like cold showers or caffeine to mobilize. Understanding these inherent genetic tendencies allows individuals to tailor their daily routines accurately.
* **Hyper-Activated Profiles:** Leaner, high-energy individuals who move spontaneously benefit most from relaxing practices like mid-temperature saunas to avoid over-activating their nervous system.
* **Abstinence from Hard Drugs:** Huberman strongly condemns drugs of abuse like cocaine and illicit amphetamines, noting he has categorically never taken them and never will.
* **Morning Daily Assessment Protocol:** Upon waking, Huberman reviews his notebook, assesses his level of rest against the day's obligations, and asks: *"What is something I can do today to make my life and the lives of others better?"*
> "Even though we're all the same species, just like dogs, there's a lot of variation there. So, you have to know thyself, as the oracle said."
Here is a walkthrough covering Part 7 of the transcript:
[01:31:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5466s) Raising Baseline Dopamine and Managing Personal Energy
Andrew Huberman reflects on how popular "biohacking" protocols, workouts, and supplements often get personified by dynamic public figures who serve as archetypes for different performance styles. Huberman shares a personal story about meeting David Goggins in 2016 during a consulting gig in Santa Clara, California. After working all day, when the rest of the team debated taking a break, Goggins insisted on pushing forward—and then chose to physically run all the way to the airport rather than take an Uber or drive. Huberman describes Goggins as being perpetually "forward center of mass."
When asked whether an individual can actually train or raise their baseline dopamine level to match that kind of drive, Huberman explains that while genetic variation sets much of our baseline—akin to how a calm baby often grows into a calm adult—people can become far more economical with the neurochemicals they possess. He points to music producer Rick Rubin as a counter-example: Rubin exhibits high energy combined with intense inner calm, possessing a rare capacity to experience art without getting absorbed or depleted by it.
- David Goggins embodies overcoming the internal mental resistance and defeating the self-doubting voice in one's head.
- Jocko Willink represents pure, unthinking execution (e.g., getting up at 4:30 AM to work out without debate).
- Rick Rubin represents creative taste—intuitively knowing what is genuinely new and resonant without chasing trends.
- Lex Fridman represents hyper-thoughtful exploration, absorbing himself deeply in both the dark tragedies and the love in the world despite potential criticism.
---
[01:33:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5613s) Introverts vs. Extroverts and Energy Distribution
Addressing the mechanics of introversion and extroversion, Huberman and host Steven Bartlett compare their personal social stamina. Bartlett notes that 2–3 hours of small talk leaves his brain feeling "fried," whereas his assistant, Sophie, gets energized as if someone poured fuel into her. Huberman agrees, sharing that while he enjoys certain social events, he reaches a hard limit after a couple of hours, unlike his ex-girlfriend who drew endless energy from parties. Scientifically, introversion vs. extroversion relates to how quickly an individual "fills up" on social engagement; introverts can still enjoy social settings, but often prefer observing or engaging in smaller, intimate conversations.
To sustain energy and raise long-term baseline dopamine, Huberman emphasizes the need to regulate extreme peaks and troughs. However, he clarifies that occasional massive dopamine peaks—such as attending a great wedding or a concert—are healthy because they do not leave you depleted. Huberman admits to loving the band James, noting their live shows give him an elevated neurochemical state and energy boost that lasts for two to three days without any crash or chemical assistance.
In contrast, Huberman observes that friends in tech and finance who hit sudden, massive financial windfalls often wind up depressed if they stop working. The happiest high-achievers are those who keep working and stay engaged in their natural curiosities. Huberman cites advice from neurologist Bob Knight during his graduate school days: figure out a consistent workload you can sustain over 4–5 years without burning out.
- Huberman's personal sustainable workload is **12 hours a day, 5 to 6 days a week**, with one full day off (usually Sunday).
- Attempting 15 hours a day or working 7 days a week causes him to "run aground."
- Individuals can safely deviate from their natural baseline capacity by roughly **15% to 20%** before running into trouble.
---
[01:40:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6026s) Replenishing Energy with Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR)
For entrepreneurs and high performers looking to optimize productivity, Huberman outlines concrete protocols to replenish cognitive and physical energy reserves. First, he addresses sleep duration, dispelling the blanket rule that everyone requires 8 to 9 hours. While Matthew Walker emphasizes sleep quality, Huberman notes that individual needs vary (mentioning he got 6 hours and 45 minutes of sleep the previous night).
For days when sleep is insufficient or you wake up feeling unrefreshed, Huberman strongly recommends a **10- to 20-minute Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR) or Yoga Nidra** protocol.
"It replenishes baseline levels of dopamine in the basal ganglia," Huberman explains, preparing both mind and body for action. NSDR involves lying down (or sitting), closing your eyes, and performing long-exhale breathing combined with a guided body scan. Long exhales engage respiratory sinus arrhythmia—activating the vagus nerve to slow the heart rate—and place the nervous system into a pseudo-sleep state between waking and sleeping. Staying awake while deeply relaxed allows the brain to restore dopamine and improve learning rates without losing the day.
- **Zero-cost NSDR resources:** Protocols guided by Andrew Huberman, Kelly Boys, or Kamini Desai are widely available online.
- Huberman and Matthew Walker’s laboratory are currently designing formal studies to map the exact neural mechanisms of NSDR.
- **Hydration protocol:** Start the day with **16 to 32 oz of water** to maintain baseline energy.
- Huberman drinks filtered water out of glass or ceramic containers to reduce plastic waste, though he isn't neurotic about occasionally using plastic bottles.
- To complete the morning transition into high energy, combine hydration with sunlight exposure and morning exercise.
[01:45:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6337s) Morning Light, Cortisol Spikes, and Circadian Biology
Andrew Huberman details the foundational steps of an optimal morning routine, focusing on hydration and immediate exposure to bright natural light. Getting outdoors shortly after waking—even under cloud cover in places like the UK—causes a rapid, healthy surge in cortisol. Far from being an inherently harmful stress hormone, a morning cortisol peak is vital for raising baseline energy, sharpening focus, enhancing mood throughout the day, and anchoring nighttime sleep quality. Huberman clarifies that one does not need to look directly at the sun as an object; the neural retina simply needs to absorb the photon energy emitting from the sky.
Responding to a question about waking up facing away from the sun in a hotel room, Huberman emphasizes that stepping out onto a balcony or outdoors yields far more light photons than remaining indoors under the brightest artificial lights. While specialized 10,000-lux Seasonal Affective Disorder (SAD) lamps serve as a secondary alternative during dark winter months in Scandinavia or Northern Europe, natural ambient light outside remains superior. If one wakes before dawn, the simple rule applies: wait for the sun to rise, or rely on bright overhead indoor lights until natural sunlight is available.
* Morning sunlight exposure triggers an essential daily cortisol peak that regulates immune function, daytime focus, and nighttime sleep onset.
* Natural outdoor ambient light on an overcast day provides significantly higher photon density than standard indoor lighting.
* Contact lenses and standard prescription glasses (even those with UV protection) do not block the benefits of morning light viewing, but sunglasses should be temporarily removed.
---
[01:49:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6582s) The Health Challenges of Shift Work and Daily Exercise Guidelines
The discussion turns to shift workers, whose non-traditional working hours place them at high risk for digestive ailments, mood disturbances, and metabolic dysregulation due to disrupted circadian rhythms. Huberman notes that swing shifts—alternating between day and night shifts every few days—are the most damaging. To mitigate these health hazards, shift workers should maintain regular meal schedules and operate under red-shifted, longer-wavelength lighting during night shifts to avoid inappropriate cortisol spikes. When possible, workers should request schedule adjustments that maintain a consistent sleep-wake pattern for at least two-week blocks before transitioning.
For individuals on a standard diurnal (day-active) schedule, morning movement—ranging from five minutes of skipping rope or jogging in place to a full workout—reinforces the wakefulness signal. Huberman emphasizes that consistency trumps optimal timing when it comes to exercise. Everyone aiming to support long-term healthspan, lifespan, and neuromuscular connectivity should engage in resistance training two to three times per week alongside regular cardiovascular exercise, scheduling workouts whenever they can be sustained reliably without disrupting sleep.
* Shift workers are encouraged to maintain fixed schedules for at least 14-day increments to limit circadian disruption.
* Nighttime ambient lighting with red-shifted wavelengths reduces unwanted cortisol release during overnight work shifts.
* Sustained healthspan and brain health require 2–3 weekly sessions of resistance training combined with cardiovascular exercise.
---
[01:53:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6839s) Food Preferences, Dopamine Loops, and Rewiring Craving Cycles
Shifting to daily nutrition and personal vices, Huberman advocates for a base diet centered on unprocessed or minimally processed foods—specifically high-quality protein, fruits, and fibrous vegetables—to maintain steady mental energy. When host Steven Bartlett asks about his personal dietary vice, Huberman humorously admits a near-endless capacity for "any carbohydrate with melted Parmesan cheese," thin-crust pizza, or pasta paired with a cold Diet Coke. Bartlett shares his own weakness for carrot cake, noting that the precise frosting-to-cake ratio determines whether it triggers an overwhelming craving.
This leads into a discussion on how hyper-palatable foods hijack the brain's dopamine pathways, causing rapid shifts from enjoyment to acute wanting. As described by Dr. Anna Lembke, indulging in high-reward foods like chocolate or cake quickly drops the individual into a "dopamine trough"—a state of diminishing returns where the brain fixates on consuming more rather than enjoying what was already eaten. Overcoming these intense cycles requires intentional periods of abstinence, which resets baseline dopamine sensitivity and allows individuals to appreciate subtle flavors again.
* A proper baseline diet for sustained focus relies on minimally processed foods, high-quality protein, and fiber to minimize mid-day energy crashes.
* Highly palatable cheat foods cause a sharp dopamine peak followed by a trough, generating immediate cravings for subsequent portions.
* Temporarily abstaining from hyper-palatable foods resets the brain's dopamine baseline and reduces compulsive food-seeking behavior.
---
[01:56:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7001s) Whole-Food Interventions and Neural Plasticity in Taste Preference
Huberman shares real-world observations from friends who lost 30 to 60 pounds by adhering to a simple, non-processed whole-food protocol: eating exclusively meat, fish, eggs, poultry, fruits, vegetables, water, and caffeine. Beyond creating an obvious caloric deficit—a mechanism highlighted by exercise scientist Layne Norton—this approach rewires the brain's association between taste, caloric density, and essential macronutrients. Eliminating refined breads, pastas, and hyper-palatable combination foods allows the nervous system to recalibrate its internal sensing of amino acids and micronutrients.
A frequent phenomenon observed after weeks of strict whole-food nutrition is a radical shift in taste preferences. When individuals on this protocol eventually attempt to indulge in processed sweets like birthday cake, they often find the taste unappealing or even nauseous. This reaction demonstrates neuroplasticity within the gustatory and reward systems: the human brain can be systematically re-trained to derive genuine pleasure from nutrient-dense whole foods while rejecting over-processed, sugar-heavy alternatives.
* A simple framework of whole meats, eggs, fish, fruits, and vegetables consistently drives weight loss by eliminating processed food triggers and lowering overall caloric intake.
* Whole foods allow the brain's amino acid and nutrient-sensing mechanisms to accurately map taste to actual nutritional value.
* Sustained adherence to unprocessed diets can rewire neural pathways, making previously hyper-palatable foods taste unpleasantly sweet or greasy.
[01:59:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7169s) Elimination Diets, Satiation, and Hyper-Palatable Foods
Andrew Huberman discusses how elimination diets work by re-establishing the connection between food taste, pleasure, and actual nutritional value. When people eat highly processed foods, candy, cookies, and chips, it triggers a rapid dopamine transition from peak to trough, driving intense cravings without providing real satisfaction. In contrast, whole, high-nutritive foods—whether steak, fruits, or vegetables—are deeply satiating.
Huberman shares that his father is Argentine, and being half-Argentine himself, he loves red meat and a good beef tenderloin, but eating just one quality steak completely satisfies him without needing a second. He encourages anyone feeling addicted to junk food to try eating unprocessed or minimally processed foods for just a couple of weeks. Though difficult at first, people quickly report feeling significantly better and losing their cravings for ultra-processed items.
The host shares his own experience of using trips to Los Angeles as a "dietary intervention." By consistently eating a simple salad with various meats and vegetables for weeks at a time, his motivation to go to the gym improves, his sleep gets better, and he gets into peak physical shape. Huberman agrees that experiencing this boost in mood and energy becomes naturally "addictive," though he emphasizes the importance of not being overly dogmatic or restrictive, enjoying a slice of pie during the holidays.
- The GLP-1 receptor agonist trend (such as Ozempic and Mounjaro) highlights that obesity stems primarily from consuming excess calories relative to activity levels.
- Average Americans walk far less, get no regular exercise, and consume around **3,500 calories per day**, leading to steady weight gain over time.
---
[02:03:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7417s) Meal Timing, Exercise, and Body Temperature
Discussing daily routines, Huberman explains his personal strategy of fasting until around 11:00 AM or noon, exercising in the morning, and eating a lunch of meat, salad, and a modest amount of starch (such as oatmeal or rice). His final meal around 7:00 or 8:00 PM includes more starches and slightly less protein, which optimizes his sleep. While individual preferences vary, timing workouts early in the day accelerates the natural morning rise in core body temperature, boosting daytime alertness.
The physiological rationale for the afternoon slump relates to body temperature peaking in the early afternoon, after which it begins to cool. To fall asleep at night, core body temperature must drop by **1 to 3 degrees**. Keeping the bedroom cool facilitates this process, ideally paired with warm blankets, while a slightly warmer room environment toward morning encourages deeper rapid eye movement (REM) and dream sleep.
- Working out early in the day (before 8:00 AM or 9:00 AM) boosts daytime alertness; mid-to-late morning workouts often result in afternoon fatigue.
- **Entrainment** in circadian biology means forcing yourself to wake up and exercise at a set time (e.g., 6:00 AM) for just **3 consecutive days** will automatically reset your brain's clock by the fourth day.
- The suprachiasmatic nucleus (the brain's circadian master clock) relies primarily on sunlight exposure to the eyes, physical activity, meal timing, and social engagement to regulate sleep-wake cycles.
---
[02:07:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7628s) Chronotypes, Biological Rhythms, and the "Mode of Capture"
Chronotypes are largely genetically determined, falling into morning people, average schedules (sleeping 10:30 PM to midnight and waking 6:00 AM to 8:00 AM), and night owls. Huberman describes his own pattern: he thrives doing mental and physical work from 6:00 AM to noon, experiences an afternoon dip, and then gets a second wind of high alertness between 6:00 PM and midnight. To manage afternoon energy troughs when recording podcasts, he relies on a **10-minute Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR)** session, light hydration, and a small amount of caffeine.
The host notes that his best ideas often strike right before going to sleep, which forces him to write down cues to send to his UK team. Huberman stresses the vital importance of having a dedicated "mode of capture"—such as a physical notebook—for capturing spontaneous thoughts. He admits to jotting down various personal concepts, including a list of animals he felt he embodied at different life stages, and notes his interest in eventually creating a drawing book to teach neuroscience.
During the transition into sleep, the logical, prefrontal cortex circuits tire out, allowing the unconscious mind to "geyser to the surface." Drawing on insights from psychiatrist Dr. Paul Conti, Huberman explains that the vast majority of non-regulatory brain activity is dedicated to unconscious processing—stitching together childhood events, future plans, and daily experiences into dreams, narrative symbols, or sudden flashes of inspiration that strike during low-friction moments like taking a shower or going for a walk.
[02:13:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7982s) Creativity, Mind-Body States, and Open Monitoring Meditation
Andrew Huberman shares an intimate observation about his own creative process, noting that some of his best ideas occur while hiking and stepping behind a tree to take a leak. He attributes this to the fact that his mind is completely unfocused on any task. Extending this concept to other high-performing thinkers, Huberman references music producer Rick Rubin, who frequently sits completely still with his eyes closed—appearing to meditate or sleep, though his mind remains intensely active. Huberman links this to a practice described by Stanford neuroscientist, psychiatrist, and bioengineer Karl Deisseroth, who, after putting his five children to sleep, deliberately remains entirely motionless while forcing himself to think in complete, structured sentences. Historical figures like Albert Einstein similarly engaged in practices where they physically halted movement during walks to let their thoughts run freely.
Huberman contrasts this "body still, mind active" approach with its inverse: "body active, mind free." During his weekly 60- to 90-minute Sunday runs, Huberman keeps his body moving at a steady pace while allowing his mind to wander, which enables unconscious insights to "geyser up" to the surface. Neuroscience categorizes these distinct mental states through research on meditation techniques. While conventional focused-attention meditation (concentrating on the breath or third eye) was shown by Dr. Wendy Suzuki at NYU to enhance working memory and lower stress in 10- to 13-minute daily sessions, *open monitoring meditation* offers different cognitive benefits. In open monitoring, an individual remains aware of all ambient sensory inputs without fixating on any single element. Laboratory testing confirms that open monitoring meditation enhances creative capacity, aiding in the synthesis of novel ideas and complex problem-solving.
* **Karl Deisseroth's Evening Practice:** Sits completely still after his five children go to sleep and forces his brain to construct thoughts in full, structured sentences.
* **Wendy Suzuki's Research:** Demonstrates that 10–13 minutes of daily focused meditation improves working memory retention and stress regulation.
* **Open Monitoring vs. Focused Meditation:** Focused meditation targets attention inward to single points (like breath), whereas open monitoring opens perception to the ambient environment, directly elevating creative idea generation.
* **Creative Capture Modes:** Huberman advises people interested in maximizing creativity to utilize modes of capture—voice memos, notes on phones, or dedicated reflection sessions—rather than waiting passively for insights to appear.
---
[02:17:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=8244s) Cold Plunges, Heat, and Male Sperm Viability
Shifting back to the core lifestyle pillars that regulate baseline dopamine and the catecholamines (dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine), Huberman highlights cold showers, cold plunges, and saunas as potent state-shifting tools. While he personally enjoys pairing sauna with cold exposure at least once a week, he notes that hot baths serve as a suitable alternative for those without sauna access. However, host Steven Bartlett raises a practical concern about hot baths and saunas "frying sperm," prompting a frank discussion on thermal exposure and testicular biology.
Huberman clarifies that high heat will not permanently destroy sperm production, but it significantly reduces the count, motility, and overall viability of sperm over the course of spermatogenesis, which operates on a 60- to 90-day cycle. Testicles reside outside the abdominal cavity specifically because optimal sperm development requires a cooler temperature than internal body heat. Exposure to hot tubs, saunas, hot baths, or even prolonged periods sitting on heated car seats dramatically lowers viable sperm count. To mitigate this without missing the cardiovascular and dopamine benefits of heat therapy, men trying to conceive can apply an insulated ice pack to the groin area while in the sauna. Conversely, Huberman issues a strict public service announcement: thermal exposure must never be relied upon as a method of contraception, as countless children have been conceived despite hot tub or sauna use.
* **Spermatogenesis Timeline:** The full cycle of sperm creation and maturation spans between 60 and 90 days.
* **Thermal Impact:** Excessive heat exposure from saunas, hot baths, or heated seats reduces forward motile and viable sperm count throughout the subsequent 60–90 day cycle.
* **Groin Cooling Mitigation Strategy:** Placing an insulated cold pack on the groin during sauna sessions protects testicular temperature and preserves sperm quality.
* **Post-Cold Rebound:** Cold plunges cause acute vasoconstriction followed by significant compensatory blood flow (vasodilation) upon rewarming, aiding localized circulation without the damaging sustained heat load.
Steven Bartlett highlights podcast sponsor Perfect Ted, a green tea energy drink company that experienced massive rapid growth (nearly 10,000%) by offering a clean alternative to traditional, crash-inducing energy drinks. As an investor in the company, Bartlett shares that he drinks it during long 3 to 6 hour podcast recordings to sustain mental focus without experiencing energy slumps.
* **Exclusive Promotion:** Listeners receive a 40% discount on online orders using the code `diary40`.
---
[02:21:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=8519s) Pornography, Dopamine Dynamics, and the Coolidge Effect
The conversation transitions into the neurological and psychological impacts of modern pornography, which Bartlett notes is ubiquitous across social media platforms like X (formerly Twitter). Moving past moral or political debates regarding personal freedom, Huberman analyzes pornography strictly through neurobiology and dopamine dynamics. Neuroimaging demonstrates that dopamine release operates on a scale of intensity: just as higher doses of cocaine or amphetamine trigger massive dopamine spikes compared to mild stimulants like caffeine, hyper-stimulating pornography triggers unusually high baseline spikes in dopamine compared to typical real-world encounters.
Dopamine functions as the brain's universal currency for motivation, craving, and reward. When an individual repeatedly consumes high-intensity, high-dopamine-releasing pornography, fundamental homeostatic shifts occur. Over time, the peak dopamine response diminishes, while the post-consumption trough becomes deeper and longer. This drop below baseline leaves the individual in a state of neurochemical deficit, driving them to seek out increasingly extreme or novel genres just to achieve a baseline level of arousal.
Huberman explains that sexual climax triggers a heavy release of prolactin, a hormone that directly opposes dopamine and regulates the male refractory period—the window during which further erection or orgasm is biologically inhibited. High prolactin levels induce a subdued, unmotivated state, historically evolved to prevent continuous, exhausting copulation. Bartlett humorously likens this state to the colloquial term "post-nut clarity." Huberman acknowledges the phenomenon and contrasts it with the classical *Coolidge Effect*—a biological principle where the male refractory period is dramatically shortened or bypassed entirely when presented with a novel sexual partner.
* **Dopamine Dynamics in Consumption:** High-intensity pornography creates elevated dopamine peaks followed by severe, prolonged baseline troughs, fueling tolerance and compulsive seeking behaviors.
* **Prolactin Seesaw:** Dopamine and prolactin exist in an inverse relationship; post-orgasm prolactin surges suppress dopamine, enforcing a refractory period and an amotivated state.
* **The Coolidge Effect:** A phenomenon observed across animal species where an exhausted male showing a prolonged refractory period becomes instantly re-aroused when introduced to a new female partner.
[02:27:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=8871s) The Coolidge Effect and the Neurobiology of Novelty
Andrew Huberman breaks down the biological underpinnings of sexual refractory periods through a classic neuroendocrinology story involving President Calvin Coolidge. As the story goes, during a tour of a chicken farm, Mrs. Coolidge was informed that a single rooster could copulate over 300 times a day. Impressed, she urged the docent to tell that to the President. Upon hearing this, Coolidge famously asked, "Same hen or different hens?" When told they were different hens, Coolidge replied, "Tell that to Mrs. Coolidge."
This principle—known scientifically as the **Coolidge Effect**—demonstrates how the introduction of a novel partner dramatically shortens a male's refractory period. While post-coital refractory periods are biologically driven by an increase in prolactin (which suppresses dopamine) to encourage pair-bonding, affection, and shared safety, dopamine acts as a key that can override this suppression. Because the dopamine system responds heavily to novelty, a new potential mate triggers an immediate dopamine release, bypassing the usual hormonal downtime.
- The Coolidge Effect is observed across species including rodents, dogs, and chickens.
- Refractory periods vary by age, species, and individual biology, lasting from minutes to days.
- Post-orgasmic prolactin spikes promote pair-bonding behaviors like sharing pheromones, affection, and sleep.
- Dopamine acts as a primary neurochemical mechanism capable of overriding prolactin-driven refractory periods when novel stimuli are presented.
---
[02:30:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9005s) The Low-Effort, High-Dopamine Trap of Modern Pornography
Transitioning from biological mechanics to modern digital habits, Huberman addresses why online pornography poses a unique neurobiological threat. When an individual sits at home consuming intense, highly variable digital media, they are continually firing their dopamine pathways without doing any of the real-world work typically required for physical interactions. Over time, exposure to extreme, hyper-stimulatory scenarios desensitizes the brain, raising the threshold required to achieve arousal in real life.
Huberman emphasizes a core rule of neurobiology: **any substance or behavior that causes massive spikes in dopamine without prior effort is fundamentally problematic.** The human brain evolved to dole out dopamine incrementally in response to effort spent pursuing adaptive evolutionary goals. Modern high-intensity pornography bypasses this evolutionary guardrail in much the same way as addictive substances or high-stakes gambling, leading to depleted baseline levels and real-world functional impairment.
- Methamphetamine, gambling addiction, and compulsive eating all mirror this mechanism of spiking dopamine without demanding effort.
- Over-reliance on artificial hyper-stimulatory inputs can lead to severe real-world difficulties, including erectile dysfunction and social anxiety.
- Huberman notes that younger populations are consuming pornography at unprecedented rates compared to previous generations.
- Addressing pornography addiction requires abstinence to reset baseline dopamine sensitivity, though Huberman acknowledges how difficult and subjective that journey is.
---
[02:34:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9243s) The Male Mental Health Crisis and Missing Real-World Alternatives
Huberman shares that he receives thousands of emails and direct messages from young men who feel completely dejected, misled, and trapped by porn addiction. They fell into a natural biological trap—gravitating toward an intense dopamine stimulus dangled in front of them—and now find themselves depleted and unsure of how to recover. He compares this emerging crisis to the work of Jonathan Haidt in *The Anxious Generation*, which highlighted how social media usage created a mental health emergency among young girls.
Host Steven Bartlett pushes on the practical reality of this issue, opening up about his own experience: seeing a simple provocative image as a teenager was intensely arousing, whereas over a decade of ubiquitous digital access has drastically shifted normal arousal thresholds. Bartlett points out a harsh dilemma in giving "abstinence-only" advice to young men: if a horny 19-year-old is told to stop masturbating and watching porn, what realistic alternative does he have? Bartlett notes that current dating stats suggest a small percentage of men are having most of the physical interactions, leaving a large portion of young men isolated for long stretches.
Huberman agrees that this complex issue urgently requires a panel of psychiatrists, psychologists, and experts to address. Unlike minor habits like drinking energy drinks or eating a steak, severe pornography consumption actively "crashes lives," leaving men unable to communicate or function intimate settings.
> "I just can't find a net positive of pornography. I can't find one. Especially as it relates to my relationship with my partner... Do I think that me watching pornography... is going to help my performance in the bedroom? Absolutely not." — Steven Bartlett
- High-potency pornography creates an expectation-reality gap that makes real-world romantic interactions harder to initiate and maintain.
- Historical access to pornography was gated by physical friction (e.g., finding hidden magazines behind dumpsters), enforcing a natural friction that modern high-speed internet completely eliminated.
- Real-world intimacy requires practice and communication—skills that digital consumption actively bypasses.
---
[02:41:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9690s) Self-Regulation in an Era of Infinite Frictionless Dopamine
Huberman asserts that legislative solutions or external restrictions will never solve the problem because human beings always find a way to access high-dopamine inputs if they want them. The modern world offers frictionless access to almost every trigger: ultra-palatable food delivered to your door with a button tap, instant information, high-intensity media, and widespread pharmaceutical misuse.
Reflecting on generational shifts, Huberman points out that when he was in college, students drank coffee or occasionally took a caffeine pill like NoDoz to pull an all-nighter. Today, an estimated 80% of college students have taken prescription stimulants without a prescription. Moving forward, the key factor distinguishing successful, healthy individuals will be their capacity for **internal self-regulation**. Everyone must learn how their personal dopamine system works and strictly guard themselves against habits that deliver massive neurochemical rewards without effort.
- Roughly 80% of college students report using prescription stimulants off-label, illustrating a drastic rise in chemical shortcuts for focus.
- Physical workouts, loud music, and energy drinks carry far lower addiction and baseline-crashing risks compared to regular consumption of high-intensity pornography or unprescribed stimulants.
- Building personal rules and self-regulatory discipline is the only sustainable strategy in a world designed for instant gratification.
<ElicitationsGroup message="Where would you like to explore next?">
<Elicitation label="Explore protocols for resetting dopamine baselines" query="What are Andrew Huberman's specific protocols for resetting and restoring baseline dopamine levels after addiction or burnout?"/>
<Elicitation label="Break down the neurobiology of dopamine and prolactin" query="Can you explain the exact neurochemical feedback loop between dopamine and prolactin after orgasm?"/>
</ElicitationsGroup>
### [02:42:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9772s) The True Essence of Dopamine and the Pursuit of Goals
The conversation transitions into the deeper connection between behavioral addictions, like pornography and gambling, and a core lack of meaning in life. The host asks whether pursuing significant, healthy goals—such as launching a company—can directly buffer someone against these destructive dopamine-inducing loops.
Andrew Huberman enthusiastically confirms this link. He uses a memorable reference to the movie *Wall Street*, where a character is asked what his monetary "number" is, to which he simply replies, "More." Huberman highlights this as the ultimate biological definition of dopamine: it is never about reaching a static finish line, but rather about the active "verb of acquisition." This explain why billionaires who amass 100 million dollars immediately pivot to wanting a billion. He points out that among the many billionaires he knows, some are genuinely happy while others are intensely miserable, depending entirely on how well they manage their internal relationship with dopamine.
### [02:44:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9872s) Overcoming the Isolation Crisis with One Core Connection
Shifting focus to the modern isolation crisis, Huberman emphasizes that turning the tide doesn't require a massive social circle. It takes just one trusting, reliable relationship to completely reset someone's psychological direction. He offers a low-barrier, highly practical protocol that he acknowledges might sound "trivial" or "corny": finding a friend to exchange a simple "good morning" text with every single day.
This daily ritual serves as a biological signal that another member of the species cares about your existence first thing in the morning, grounding you firmly within a "tribe." The host chimes in with a laugh, asking if the content of the text matters, noting that in his own group chats, he and his friends mostly "roast each other" and tell one another to bugger off. Huberman laughs and assures him that roasting is perfectly fine, but notes it becomes even more powerful if it evolves into checking in on how someone slept or what their plan is for the day. Huberman admits he practices this religiously with two close friends, and if he doesn't hear from them by noon, a subtle worry sets in simply because the routine is so deeply embedded in his day.
### [02:47:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10042s) The Primate Need for Connection and Creative Solutions
Humans are old-world primates with vast amounts of neural real estate explicitly hardwired for visual processing, language, and social connection. Huberman emphasizes that we are simply not meant to live in complete isolation or solely in relation to our goals. If a physical workplace isn't available, even going to a cafe or a library to see familiar faces or exchanging a brief greeting with someone walking their dog activates these essential safety and well-being circuits.
For those who genuinely have no one in their lives to text, Huberman offers strong, concrete alternatives:
* **Adopt a dog:** Becoming a caretaker creates a powerful, empathetic loop of mutual reliance.
* **Get a fish:** If a dog isn't feasible, even caring for a fish provides a baseline sense of responsibility for another living being.
* **Utilize zero-cost support programs:** Every major city offers free community groups for individuals battling substance or behavioral addictions.
* **Join local interest groups:** While Huberman admits he isn't the type to join a public running club himself, things like running groups offer a structured way to build community.
### [02:49:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10144s) A Lifelong Journey from Loner to Community Builder
The host observes that Huberman does not naturally strike him as an intensely social person and shares his own experience as a self-described "loner." The host recounts a year in his life spent building his first business in a rough area of the UK where he barely interacted with another soul, realizing he could easily go without socializing if left to his own devices. Huberman nods in agreement, acknowledging that he too can spend massive stretches of time alone, but notes that he craves deep social connection more and more as he ages.
Huberman reflects that the primary challenge of his life has been balancing the intense, disciplined isolation required to do the research he is passionate about with his fundamental desire to stay socially connected. He traces his social evolution from growing up in a big pack of neighborhood boys and skateboarding, to the deep isolation of his academic and research years in his 20s. It wasn't until his mid-30s that he realized he was lonely despite having a girlfriend, noticing that he had begun accumulating unhealthy behavioral patterns to cope with that isolation.
### [02:54:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10461s) The Curated List of 30 and the Value of Richness Over Frequency
Today, Huberman maintains a literal, written list of about 30 people who constitute his core community, with a tighter subsection of 10 to 15 individuals he checks in on regularly. When asked how someone makes it onto that coveted list, Huberman explains it is entirely based on "feel" and mutual acceptance.
He candidly shares an insight from a close friend who compared him to the "orbiting flying robot in Star Wars"—meaning he will show up, give someone "10 out of 10 attention," and then completely disappear into his own space to reset. Because of this intense style of presence followed by absence, Huberman values the *richness* of an interaction far more than its *frequency*. He describes how a brief, 10-minute phone call or a hike with a friend on his list yields an incredibly deep, life-affirming exchange that sustains him, even if they haven't spoken in weeks. He summarizes a powerful piece of advice passed down to him: "people with interests are interesting," urging lonely individuals to develop genuine passions and to actively step up to be the person who serves, checks in, and sends the first text.
<FollowUp label="Would you like to explore Andrew Huberman's protocols for overcoming behavioral addictions?" query="What are Andrew Huberman's specific protocols and behavioral steps for overcoming addictions like pornography or phone overuse?"/>
[02:56:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10599s) The Essence of True Friendship and Showing Up
Reflecting on his personal relationships, Andrew Huberman expresses profound gratitude for the friends who have supported him during difficult periods. He shares how moving it was when close friends—including well-known figures in the podcasting space—came directly to his home to sit with him, pick him up, and remind him of who he is. For Huberman, a 49-year-old man who admits to making mistakes while doing the best he could with what he had, feeling that level of non-transactional care and deep presence was an unforgettable experience.
Huberman explains that building this level of deep connection requires showing up consistently, even when there is no active crisis. True friendship is cultivated through quiet, regular attention—whether that means putting phones away for a deep conversation or simply sitting together on the couch watching a game. It starts with simple habits, such as sending a quick morning text without expecting an immediate reply. Over time, mutual care creates a reliable support structure that buffers against the dizzying challenges of life while doubling the joy of celebrating good times.
* **Showing Up in Times of Need:** Huberman emphasizes that when friends are in distress or danger, the only response is to get in the car and show up immediately without hesitation.
* **The Foundation of Friendship:** Deep social bonds are built on active listening, shared experiences, and authentic presence, which Huberman values far beyond any financial or material reward.
* **The Power of Reciprocation:** Simple daily gestures create mutual reliability, giving people a sense of being "crewed up" to face life's uncertainties together.
---
[03:00:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10851s) Navigating Public Scrutiny, Misinformation, and Personal Boundaries
The host draws a parallel between Huberman's recent public media storm and his own past experiences with targeted media hostility. He notes the intense sense of injustice that comes from being attacked publicly and asks how a scientist focused on protocols handles such a crisis. Huberman shares that Lex Fridman literally showed up at his home, walking into the room in his signature suit just to offer silent support and presence during the ordeal.
Addressing the nature of public false accusations, Huberman highlights the extreme frustration of seeing completely untrue narratives presented out of context. While the immediate urge is to defend oneself, adults must carefully decide whether to counter the narrative, stay silent, or acknowledge real mistakes. In high-pressure situations, public forums rarely facilitate genuine healing or resolve personal disputes. Instead, Huberman chose to focus on his core mission—delivering science-based tools for health and performance—while relying on a small circle of trusted friends and family to help maintain clear optics.
```
+-------------------------------------------------+
| Public Scrutiny Response Options |
+-------------------------------------------------+
| 1. Counter the Narrative |
| 2. Maintain Silence & Focus on the Mission |
| 3. Acknowledge Genuine Mistakes & Move Forward |
+-------------------------------------------------+
```
Huberman also touches on social media dynamics and digital boundaries. He treats his Instagram comment section like a classroom, enforcing rules against personal attacks and freely blocking abusive users to protect the environment. He criticizes the modern expectation that public figures must reveal every intimate detail of their personal lives, recalling a story about his father, an Argentine immigrant whose office desk featured family photos turned inward—facing him rather than the room—because personal relationships are meant for oneself, not for public display.
* **Handling False Narratives:** Huberman stresses that media coverage online often mirror "cherry-picking data" in science—focusing only on selective, skewed perspectives while ignoring context.
* **Protocol Under Stress:** During public scrutiny, Huberman relied heavily on physiological sighs, non-sleep deep rest (NSDR), and maintaining consistent sleep hygiene to stay grounded.
* **The Classroom Rule:** On his personal platforms, Huberman allows constructive debate and swearing in general, but immediately issues warnings or blocks users who turn abusive toward each other.
---
[03:10:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11413s) Perspectives on Hardship and Early Life Struggles
When asked what a "fly on the wall" would have witnessed while he was going through the media storm, Huberman puts the experience into perspective by stating it was far from the hardest time of his life. He contrasts modern public scrutiny with the terrifying powerlessness he felt as a 14-year-old locked behind closed doors in a facility with no money, agency, or clear path out.
He vividly recalls calling Steve "Shrugie" Rougie—his team manager at Thunder Trucks and Spitfire Wheels—desperately asking for help, only for Rougie to respond, "Bro, you're the most normal guy I know. What am I supposed to do?" Huberman reflects on other pivotal hardships, including his formative July 4th fight that forced him to confront his life trajectory, as well as the unique emotional pain that came with losing three irreplaceable scientific mentors who had functioned almost like family throughout his academic training.
* **Early Adversity:** Being locked up at age 14 with zero financial resources or personal agency was significantly more frightening to Huberman than adult media controversy.
* **Key Figures:** Steve "Shrugie" Rougie served as Huberman's team manager for Thunder Trucks and Spitfire Wheels during his teenage skateboarding years.
* **Scientific Mentorship:** Huberman notes that relationships between scientific mentors and trainees used to be exceptionally close, describing his undergraduate advisor, graduate advisor (who was like a mother to him), and post-doc advisor as foundational figures in his development.
[03:11:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11508s) Tragic Loss, Scientific Orphanhood, and Academic Opinions
Andrew Huberman reflects on a devastating period in his life when three people he was exceptionally close to died in rapid succession—one to suicide, one to cancer at age 50, and another to cancer in his early 60s. When the third mentor, Ben, passed away, Huberman felt an overwhelming sense of doom, wondering if he was cursed since he was the common denominator among them all. Facing this immense grief, he chose to transmute his pain into something constructive: serving others by bringing accessible science to the public, an ambition that directly birthed the *Huberman Lab* podcast.
Having lost all three of his primary mentors, Huberman considers himself a "scientific orphan." In the academic world, young researchers often carry the burden of living up to their mentors' expectations or reputations, but Huberman no longer has that pressure. He breaks down how his academic peers at Stanford and elsewhere view his public platform into three distinct groups:
* **The Supporters (~33%):** Think the podcast is genuinely cool and encourage his public outreach.
* **The Neutral Observers (~33%):** Appreciate that science gets broad public attention, though they note its heavy focus on practical health application rather than pure basic science.
* **The Critics (~33%):** Dislike it outright, driven either by professional jealousy or a distaste for his presentation style.
Huberman remains entirely unfazed by the negative reactions, reasoning that as an adult whose primary advisors have passed, he is responsible only to himself. He emphasizes that everyone must live with their own choices, viewing this mutual independence as a symbiotic reality of public academic life.
[03:14:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11670s) Vulnerability, Failure, and the "Breakup Protocol"
Turning to his personal life, Huberman grows noticeably emotional as he opens up about his deepest psychological struggle: an extreme difficulty with letting go. While he can process the ultimate finality of death, accepting the end of a relationship or losing someone who is still alive presents a profound challenge. He addresses public misperceptions—such as claims that he is hyper-self-interested or a narcissist—by explaining that his internal mechanics are far more complex. He reflects on a long-term, deeply invested romantic relationship that ended after years of intense effort, which left him reeling because he is unaccustomed to failing.
Huberman humorously—yet candidly—admits that his personal "breakup protocol" completely sucks. Those closest to him frequently point out that he stays in fundamentally flawed or doomed relationships far too long simply because he refuses to "call time of death." He explains that his inability to walk away stems from a form of miscalibrated empathy where he cannot tolerate inflicting or experiencing emotional pain simultaneously, leading him to slog away in unhealthy dynamics long after they have lost viability.
- **Refusal to quit:** Huberman notes that while he is far from perfect, he inherently resists quitting, which often leads to staying in incompatible situations past the point of damage.
- **Root causes:** Though therapists suggest his patterns stem from his parents' separation during childhood, Huberman clarifies that he never resented their divorce, as both parents went on to have happy lives and partners.
- **The "Dog vs. Human" Empathy dynamic:** He contrasts human relationships with the pure, reciprocal love he shared with his dog, Costello—explaining that human dynamics require nuanced boundaries that he is actively working to develop with tools provided by experts like Dr. Paul Conti (focusing on communication and self-care).
[03:21:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12106s) Steven Bartlett’s Relationship Traumas and Overcoming Childhood Conditioning
Steven Bartlett connects with Huberman’s openness by sharing his own personal relationship struggles. Growing up with a Nigerian mother and an English father who engaged in constant, intense conflict—screaming at each other for up to seven hours a day—Bartlett left home at age 18 convinced that being in a romantic relationship was equivalent to entering a "prison." This conditioning led him to repeatedly push people away whenever they expressed genuine romantic interest, self-sabotaging every potential partnership until he was 27 years old.
Bartlett shares the dramatic arc of his current relationship to illustrate the immense effort required to break deep-seated patterns. After two years together, his partner revealed she did not enjoy having sex with him, triggering intense feelings of emasculation and confusion in Bartlett. They broke up, and she moved to Bali for a year. Recognizing his own lack of communication tools and understanding that she was processing past sexual trauma, Bartlett flew across the world to apologize for his shortcomings. Both committed to doing deep personal work separately for a year, which ultimately transformed their dynamic.
- **Current Status:** Bartlett and his partner have lived together for two years since her return from Bali, having rebuilt a deeply fulfilling and active romantic life through rigorous self-work.
- **Relatability and Vulnerability:** Bartlett expresses profound gratitude for Huberman's willingness to discuss these topics publicly, highlighting that despite professional success, almost everyone faces unique challenges in romantic, familial, or friend dynamics.
[03:25:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12354s) Navigating Relationships, Resentment, and the Trap of Complacency
Andrew Huberman begins by reflecting on the inherent difficulty of human relationships, noting that while they are notoriously hard, he has recently started feeling a sense of ease and "seamlessness" with them, particularly within his friendships. He contrasts areas of personal proficiency—where there is a direct, smooth relationship between effort and outcome—with tricky interpersonal dynamics that feel like rolling a boulder uphill only to be repeatedly crushed by it. Despite these challenges, Huberman strongly believes that almost anything can be talked through if people are willing to resolve things. He emphasizes that carrying resentment and anger serves no one, noting that while some might view this perspective as a self-serving narrative, he actively strives to clear himself of those toxic emotions. "Ultimately like we can't control what anyone else is going to do or say or think and that's terrifying, right? People can really hurt us," he admits, acknowledging the painful reality that we cannot engineer a completely safe world.
Lately, Huberman’s inner work has focused on striping away internal protective armor to reconnect with a younger, less walled-up version of himself. Rather than constantly projecting out two or three iterations ahead, he is prioritizing presence and deeply savoring the immense gifts already in his life—such as physical health or the simple opportunity to sit down for a long-form, meaningful conversation. He confesses that he used to worry that practicing intense gratitude would breed complacency. However, both scientific data and his personal experience have proven the exact opposite: focusing on the good actually generates more energy and anticipation for future possibilities. He views the human drive to want more while simultaneously savoring the present not as a stagnant state, but as a perfect upward spiral. Rather than putting the audience to sleep with exhaustive mechanistic descriptions of dopamine and motivational neural pathways, he notes that the most crucial step is for people to be radically honest about what they can reasonably fix right now, gently coaxing themselves forward while occasionally "scruffing" themselves to signal that it is time to change.
[03:30:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12624s) The Reality of Therapy and the Three Positions of the Mind
When asked what tools have helped him transition from an aggressively goal-driven state to one of deeper presence, Huberman reveals that his introduction to therapy was not entirely voluntary. "I was forced into therapy as a way to get out of lockup," he recalls, explaining that he was required to attend routine sessions just to stay in high school. Through decades of navigating personal development, he has learned that therapy is highly effective provided there is strong rapport and the clinician offers actionable insights rather than indulging in "story fondling"—his term for endlessly playing with problems without moving toward resolution. He balances this emotional work with a deep respect for physiology, utilizing tools like Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR), morning sunlight, and exercise to manage his state, while remaining careful not to mask genuine psychological pain with physiological fixes.
Huberman shares a profound paradigm shift he learned from author and life coach Martha Beck, who holds three degrees from Harvard yet blends her intellectual rigor with a deeply spiritual side. When Huberman asked her how to reconcile a hyper-analytical mind that constantly predicts outcomes with a wave of intense emotion, Beck described a visualization exercise where thoughts and feelings are placed in opposing hands, locked in an exhausting battle. Rather than drinking, scrolling, or calling people to numb the friction, Beck advised stepping back into a third position: the "compassionate observer." Huberman admits his immediate internal reaction was a firm "No!" when she told him he had to sit with the suffering, but he soon understood the brilliance of the strategy. By observing the internal conflict without intervening, one can feel which thoughts physically constrict the body and which ones offer a sense of release. This process maps perfectly to neuroscience, bridging the analytical duration-path-outcome (DPO) tracking of the forebrain with the timeless, primitive emotional responses of the limbic system, which, as psychiatrist Paul Conti notes, does not know the clock or the calendar and often reacts as if a person is still eight years old.
[03:35:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12918s) The Essential Self and Fiercely Defending True Friends
By operating from the position of the compassionate observer, Huberman explains that individuals can tap back into what Martha Beck calls the "essential self"—a person's unique internal wiring and fundamental goodness. This grounded state allows a healthy human to alternate fluidly between being a fierce warrior and being soft and compassionate, depending entirely on what the situation demands. He highlights his close friend Rick Rubin as a prime example of this presence, noting that people adore Rubin not because of his legendary status in music, but because he shows up completely empty-handed—neither seeking to take anything nor explicitly trying to give, yet radiating a profound presence.
The conversation shifts into an intense and fiercely protective tone as Huberman discusses his deep loyalty to his inner circle. "Come at me, attack me all day, and you people do," Huberman states bluntly. "But if you try and attack people I know in their true goodness, Lex [Fridman] or Rick or any number of my different friends... that's when a side of me comes out that frankly I'm proud of. I'm going to hit you, and I'm going to hit you hard." He extends this same fierce protection to his sister and long-time friends like Joe Rogan. Huberman recounts how mainstream media reporters have called him attempting to set "snare traps" to get him to trash Rogan on the record. He flatly refuses, citing numerous quiet, unpublicized acts of massive generosity he has witnessed Rogan perform for others with absolutely no expectation of return. For Huberman, standing up against cheap shots targeted at good people who are genuinely trying to serve the world is a non-negotiable duty, whether those individuals are globally famous or completely anonymous.
[03:38:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13130s) The Authentic Essence of Creators and Artists
Huberman clarifies that he bears no personal malice toward traditional media outlets, recognizing that their sensationalized headlines, URLs, and clickbait strategies are simply modern mechanisms for generating an income. However, what truly inspires him is the distinct, unvarnished counter-culture energy found in podcasters, early skateboarders, punk rockers, and fine artists. These creators, he notes, never entered their respective fields out of a desire for universal popularity or massive wealth; they did it simply because creating was their absolute essence.
To illustrate this raw commitment to authenticity, Huberman points to the legendary artist Jean-Michel Basquiat. He speaks passionately about the 1996 biographical film *Basquiat*, directed by Julian Schnabel, urging the host to watch it if he hasn't already. Huberman fondly recalls the movie's stellar cast, listing off major actors who brought the story to life, including Dennis Hopper, Parker Posey, and David Bowie.
- **Key Cast Members in the Film *Basquiat* Mentioned by Huberman:**
- Dennis Hopper
- Parker Posey
- David Bowie (who memorably portrayed Andy Warhol)
[03:40:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13209s) The Trap of Fame and What Really Matters
Andrew Huberman references the film *Basquiat*, highlighting a stacked cast featuring David Bowie as Andy Warhol, Willem Dafoe, and Benicio Del Toro playing Jean-Michel Basquiat's friend (Vincent Gallo's character). He points out an incredible scene where Basquiat asks Del Toro's character how long it takes to get famous, leading to a brilliant monologue about how fame ultimately invites relentless attacks that can collapse an artist. Huberman warns listeners that fame destroys personal freedom; people think they want it, but what they actually need is safety, meaningful connections, and the liberty to be themselves without constant public assault. He dismisses the famous psychological claim that humans only need $70,000 a year to be happy, calling it an out-of-touch metric usually parroted by wealthy individuals. Instead, true happiness requires sufficient financial resources to feel secure about the present and future, solid social connections, and a private space for passionate exploration.
Reflecting on his own life, Huberman admits to having fantasies about completely disappearing with a small group of loved ones to a hidden village. However, he acknowledges his fundamental nature as a creator who craves connection with the broader world, joking that society is essentially "stuck" with him. He and the host laugh off the idea of buying a compound with houses, a gym, a sauna, and a podcast studio, noting that outsiders would immediately label it a cult. Huberman explains that people who aren't driven by creative passion often fail to understand that creators simply *have* to create. In a playful yet biting metaphor, he likens hostile journalists and critics to "horseshoe crabs working on the coral reef of life"—bottom-feeders who fulfill a necessary role in the broader ecosystem, even if it is difficult to see their value.
- The movie *Basquiat* features Jean-Michel Basquiat, Benicio Del Toro, David Bowie (as Andy Warhol), and Willem Dafoe.
- True fulfillment requires: safety through adequate financial resources, genuine friendships, freedom of self-expression, and passionate curiosity.
- "Fame takes away your freedom. People say they want to be famous... you absolutely don't."
---
[03:43:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13428s) The Ultimate Protocol: True Friendship
When asked about the most vital takeaway among all his health protocols, Huberman emphasizes that genuine friendship stands above the rest. Rather than dwelling on the modern loneliness and isolation epidemic, he focuses on actionable solutions: simple, daily touchpoints like a quick morning text exchange ("Good morning. How'd you sleep?"). That predictable, clockwork reliability provides profound psychological peace. While romantic relationships and parenting are crucial, cultivating strong friendships offers a irreplaceable foundation that reflects the best parts of human nature.
- Consistent, simple interactions (like daily text check-ins) build trust and emotional stability.
- Deep friendships do not require oversharing every inner thought; keeping personal journals can serve as an outlet for private feelings.
---
[03:45:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13518s) Jim Thiebaud and the Power of Showing Up
Getting visibly emotional, Huberman shares a deeply personal story about his lifelong friend Jim Thiebaud, a prominent figure in the skateboarding world who serves as the head of Deluxe Distribution. When Huberman was 14 years old and recovering from a troubled period in a youth facility, Thiebaud—about a decade older—walked up to him at the famous Embarcadero skate spot in San Francisco. He handed young Huberman a cup of coffee, some stickers, and two self-published poetry zines (*Loose Change* and *Do the Distance*), encouraging him to start writing. Decades later, during an adult life crisis when everything seemed to crash down, Thiebaud unexpectedly showed up just to sit with him, maintaining that quiet, steady support ever since.
Huberman credits Thiebaud for quietly shaping the skateboarding culture into an inclusive, diverse sanctuary. He took public criticism on the chin while silently steering the sport to welcome everyone—from straight, gay, and trans kids to kids without parents or those struggling with sobriety—while simultaneously helping transition skateboarding into an Olympic sport. Huberman explains that no thank-you card could ever express what Thiebaud means to him, noting that he tells his friends he loves them every day because life is too fragile to leave things unsaid.
- Jim Thiebaud handed a 14-year-old Huberman coffee, stickers, and two poetry books (*Loose Change* and *Do the Distance*), inspiring him to keep a journal.
- Deluxe Distribution plays a central role in skateboarding culture, fostering diversity, sobriety support, and inclusion.
- "He just sat with me... there's no card you can send that can capture all that."
---
[03:50:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13850s) Unstructured Time and "Sitting in the Mud"
Huberman recounts attending the funeral service at the House of Flowers in San Francisco for his graduate advisor, Dr. Barbara Chapman. During the service, he broke down crying in front of all his academic colleagues. Chapman's two young daughters, aged 12 and 9, stood up to give a eulogy for their mother. Instead of listing achievements or grand trips, the young girls simply shared that the best part about their mom was that "she spent a lot of unstructured time with us." That brief, profound statement deeply reframed Huberman's understanding of relationships.
The host brings up a perspective shared by author Simon Sinek: during dark times, a real friend doesn't need to fix your problems or offer answers—they just need to "sit in the mud with you." Huberman agrees, explaining that true intimacy involves seeing past people's surface-level online personas or defensive behaviors (citing how figures like Layne Norton balance a fierce, competitive public edge with deep devotion to their children) to truly accept and value all their complex facets.
- Dr. Barbara Chapman's daughters highlighted "unstructured time" as the most precious gift their mother gave them.
- A true friend's most medicinal role is often quiet presence rather than active problem-solving.
Here is a detailed, faithful summary of the final section of the conversation:
### [03:54:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=14069s) Navigating Intimacy and Healthy Risk in Relationships
Reflecting on the ongoing nature of personal growth and interpersonal dynamics, Huberman describes how intimacy functions through a shared cycle of facing adversity. Relationships often proceed smoothly until a significant challenge arises—one that may carry confusion or shame. When both individuals retreat into their respective domains, process the experience, and return to share their insights, they grow closer together. He emphasizes that building true intimacy requires taking "a certain amount of healthy risk." Acknowledging that he is not a psychologist and remains a work in progress, Huberman emphasizes his commitment to self-improvement: "Lord knows I have a lot of work to do, but I'll be damned if I'm going to quit. I'm going to keep trying."
---
### [03:55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=14100s) The True Purpose and Meaning of Life
Steven Bartlett introduces the podcast's traditional closing routine, presenting a question left by the previous undisclosed guest: *"What is the true meaning of your life? Why do you exist?"* Pausing to craft a concise answer, Huberman explains that his existence is defined by his lived experiences, the knowledge gained from those experiences, and the words he uses to communicate them. He defines his ultimate purpose as making the best possible choices regarding what to seek out, learn, and share.
Driven by a compulsive desire to pass on valuable tools, he aims to provide actionable information so individuals can become better versions of themselves. He explains that whenever he discovers transformative knowledge, he feels a duty to share it: "It's because I feel like people need to know about this. This can really help."
* **Future Horizons:** While his current focus is on sharing information, Huberman notes that his life's meaning may shift in the future toward caring for "little Hubermans" or pursuing entirely different goals.
* **Planning Rule:** He intentionally avoids planning his life more than five years out.
* **Addressing Political Rumors:** Huberman directly shuts down speculative rumors about entering politics, stating unequivocally, "There's no chance I'm going to politics. It runs countercurrent to my nature." He asserts that his true alignment lies strictly in learning, adventure, and sharing knowledge.
---
### [03:57:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=14262s) Bartlett’s Gratitude and *Protocols* Book Announcement
Steven Bartlett expresses deep personal gratitude to Huberman, noting that getting to know him over the course of their hours-long conversation illuminated the purity of his intentions. Bartlett credits Huberman’s work as a major catalyst for his own personal growth, as well as an inspiration for *The Diary Of A CEO*, influencing the show's content and guest selections. Furthermore, Bartlett shares that his 30-to-40-person team and close circle of friends have directly benefited from Huberman’s ability to simplify complex health concepts.
Bartlett highlights Huberman’s upcoming book, *Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body* (scheduled for release on April 22, 2025), comparing its anticipated impact for readers to a "Bible" for body optimization and personal health. He thanks Huberman for taking the time to distill his scientific knowledge into a written manual despite already having a massive global audience.
---
### [03:59:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=14387s) Shared Respect and the Spark of a New Friendship
Accepting the praise, Huberman expresses his gratitude for the opportunity to converse and commends Bartlett's rapid success, describing his trajectory as "pointed at the sun." Huberman admits he initially expected the interview to focus strictly on science protocols and technical topics, but was pleasantly surprised by the emotional depth and raw honesty of the conversation—a quality he attributes entirely to Bartlett’s genuine compassion, realness, and willingness to share his own personal experiences.
Closing the episode on a warm, personal note, Huberman praises Bartlett for rejecting traditional career paths to forge his own unique trajectory. Suggesting they stay in touch to grab a meal, work out, or simply hang out, Huberman concludes: "I'd like to think that we've sparked a friendship," to which Bartlett warmly agrees.
## Notable quotes
> [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=0s) things were going well in my life and then one day just crack, everything came crashing down. — Andrew Huberman
> [02:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=161s) to share the beauty and utility of biology — Andrew Huberman
> [34:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2057s) I basically was parenting myself. And I think that this is something that I learned how to do early on. I love my parents, but I learned how to mother and father myself. And that was powerful. — Andrew Huberman
> [41:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2480s) If you want to learn, you can learn. And that learning occurs through neuroplasticity, which is the reordering of neural connections, strengthening of certain connections, weakening of others, and in some rare cases the addition of new neurons, but brain change is absolutely real at every stage of life. — Andrew Huberman
> [01:17:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4644s) Most all addiction, most all compulsive behavior can be cured, essentially, through a period of abstinence lasting somewhere between 30 and 60 days, which to somebody who's highly motivated to seek that thing or do that thing, sounds like an absolute horror. But that is highly effective. — Andrew Huberman
> [01:26:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5169s) We have this fixation that more is better, and more is not better. You want the minimal effective dose, maybe a little bit more, because we don't know where minimal is. — Andrew Huberman
> [02:30:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9005s) any substance or behavior that causes massive spikes in dopamine without prior effort is fundamentally problematic. — Andrew Huberman
> [02:34:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9243s) I just can't find a net positive of pornography. I can't find one. Especially as it relates to my relationship with my partner... Do I think that me watching pornography... is going to help my performance in the bedroom? Absolutely not. — Steven Bartlett
> [02:55:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10541s) people with interests are interesting — Andrew Huberman
> [03:30:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12650s) story fondling — Andrew Huberman
> [03:36:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12985s) Come at me, attack me all day, and you people do. But if you try and attack people I know in their true goodness, Lex or Rick or any number of my different friends... that's when a side of me comes out that frankly I'm proud of. I'm going to hit you, and I'm going to hit you hard. — Andrew Huberman
> [03:40:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13215s) Fame takes away your freedom. People say they want to be famous... you absolutely don't. — Andrew Huberman
> [03:43:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13380s) horseshoe crabs working on the coral reef of life — Andrew Huberman
> [03:55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=14100s) There's no chance I'm going to politics. It runs countercurrent to my nature. — Andrew Huberman
## Mentioned
Andrew Huberman, Steven Bartlett, Lex Fridman, The Diary Of A CEO, Stanford University, Huberman Lab, Tony Hawk, Danny Way, Colin McKay, DC Shoes, Jack Johnson, Mike Mentzer, Dorian Yates, Rancid, Operation Ivy, Bob Dylan, UC Berkeley, UC San Diego, Barbara Chapman, Rob Moore, Costello, Richard Ramirez, Embarcadero Plaza (EMB), Jacob Rosenberg, Mike Blabac, Mike Carroll, Henry Sanchez, Marc Gonzales, Plan B, Waiting for Lightning, Martha Beck, Michael Muller, Oliver Sacks, Ryan Holiday, Ben Reese, David Hubel, Torsten Wiesel, Mike Merzenich, Rick Rubin, Metropolitan Museum of Art, Salk Institute, Ben Barres, Byron Katie, Emily Balcetis, New York University, UCSF, Peter Thiel, Joe Rogan, Chris Williamson, Apple, Samsung, Kyle Gillette, Anna Lembke, David Goggins, Jocko Willink, James, Bob Knight, Matthew Walker, Kelly Boys, Kamini Desai, Layne Norton, Ozempic, Mounjaro, Paul Conti, Karl Deisseroth, Albert Einstein, Wendy Suzuki, NYU, Perfect Ted, The Anxious Generation, Jonathan Haidt, Calvin Coolidge, Steve 'Shrugie' Rougie, Jim Thiebaud, Julian Schnabel, Jean-Michel Basquiat, Dennis Hopper, Parker Posey, David Bowie, Willem Dafoe, Benicio Del Toro, Vincent Gallo, Andy Warhol, Thunder Trucks, Spitfire Wheels, Deluxe Distribution, Instagram, Star Wars, House of Flowers, Simon Sinek, Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body
Huberman：多巴胺耗竭与快速激增及独处密切相关
持续的动力与心理稳定性取决于最低有效感官刺激与规律、低门槛社交联系的结合。
Andrew Huberman 博士概述了他从滑板圈的叛逆少年成长为斯坦福大学神经科学家和顶尖科学传播者的个人历程。他详细解析了如何利用最低有效剂量的行为工具，来实现成人神经可塑性、基础多巴胺调节、睡眠卫生、光照暴露以及戒除坏习惯等可操作方案。除了神经生物学，Huberman 还坦诚反思了应对公众的高度审视、处理人际关系、克服治疗障碍，以及真挚友谊在维持身心健康中所发挥的关键作用。
Andrew Huberman 的核心使命是将神经科学转化为实用的日常方案，让公众理解生物学的美感与实用价值。 (2:41)
经历青少年时期的创伤、父母离异及寄宿治疗机构后，Huberman 通过严格的体育锻炼和自我教养彻底转变了人生轨迹。 (11:13)
成人神经可塑性需要由儿茶酚胺（多巴胺和肾上腺素）驱动的高度警觉状态，随后依靠深度睡眠或非睡眠深度休息（NSDR）来完成神经连接的结构重组。 (42:07)
索尔克研究所等突破性研究打破了衰老神话，证实八九十岁的老年人大脑依然能够生成新的脑细胞并保留神经可塑性。 (49:29)
Reading summary
Neuroscientist Andrew Huberman argues that sustainable mental and physical performance depends on mastering physiological self-regulation—specifically managing dopamine baselines, aligning circadian biology, and anchoring personal drive in effort rather than low-friction stimulation.
Dopamine Dynamics and the Low-Effort Trap (73:33)
Huberman frames dopamine as the brain's currency of pursuit and craving rather than an end-state reward. Using an analogy from endocrinologist Dr. Kyle Gillette, he compares dopamine to a wave pool: generating extreme surges causes baseline reserves to splash out, driving the system into a neurochemical deficit or trough. Relying on Dr. Anna Lembke's balance scale model, Huberman warns that stacking high-intensity triggers—such as stimulants, ultra-palatable foods, or digital pornography—artificially spikes dopamine without requiring prior effort. This dysregulation deepens the post-spike trough, desensitizes neural pathways, and lowers baseline motivation for real-world engagement.
Because the modern environment offers frictionless access to hyper-stimulatory rewards, external limits or legislation inevitably fail. Huberman points out that an estimated 80% of modern college students report using unprescribed stimulants to bypass natural fatigue. True cognitive and emotional stability therefore requires internal self-regulation: individuals must protect baseline dopamine by deriving gratification from incremental effort rather than relying on chemical or digital shortcuts.
Biological Levers for Energy and Circadian Alignment (100:26)
Rather than relying on willpower alone, Huberman advocates managing internal states through foundational physiological levers. Morning outdoor light exposure provides photon energy to the neural retina, triggering an essential morning cortisol surge that sharpens daytime focus, supports immune function, and anchors the timing of nighttime sleep. Core body temperature follows a predictable circadian arc: rising in the morning and peaking in the early afternoon, after which falling temperatures promote sleep. Lowering core body temperature by 1 to 3 degrees Fahrenheit facilitates falling asleep, which can be assisted by keeping the bedroom cool.
To counter daily fatigue or inadequate sleep, Huberman recommends 10- to 20-minute Non-Sleep Deep Rest (NSDR) or Yoga Nidra protocols. By incorporating long-exhale breathing to engage respiratory sinus arrhythmia and activate the vagus nerve, NSDR places the nervous system into a restorative pseudo-sleep state. Huberman claims this practice directly replenishes baseline dopamine in the basal ganglia and accelerates learning rates without the grogginess of daytime sleeping.
Minimal Effective Dosing and Stress Modulation (86:09)
Challenging the assumption that more volume always yields better results, Huberman emphasizes the principle of the 'minimal effective dose' across training and recovery modalities. Deliberate cold exposure, such as cold plunges or showers, triggers a sustained release of dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine that enhances mood and alertness. However, pushing cold exposure to extreme durations produces diminishing returns, risks illness, and depletes neurochemical reserves. The ideal protocol requires entering the cold only until the urge to exit hits, pushing briefly past that barrier, and then exiting.
This restraint applies equally to systemic stress and resistance training. Operating under allostasis—the dynamic regulation of internal states through physiological change—the body benefits from acute stress, which actually mobilizes immune defenses. However, chronic hyper-arousal leads to inevitable crashes. Huberman encourages identifying whether one is 'back on one's heels,' 'flat-footed,' or 'forward center of mass,' using parasympathetic breathing tools to shift between high-engagement states and deliberate recovery.
Adult Neuroplasticity and Narrative Reframing (42:07)
While passive experience automatically rewires the nervous system prior to roughly age 25, adult neuroplasticity requires deliberate, focused friction. In adults, structural change is initiated only when an alert state triggers the release of catecholamines—dopamine, epinephrine, and norepinephrine—to mark specific neural circuits. The actual physical rewiring and synaptic remodeling occur later during periods of deep rest and sleep. Because the adult nervous system operates with energy efficiency, highly charged stimuli like fear or intense emotional commitment drive structural adaptation far more readily than passive exposure.
This biological capacity to change underpins identity and behavioral reform. Drawing on his own transition from adolescent delinquency and institutional care to academic rigor, Huberman notes that persistent behaviors are often rooted in unexamined internal scripts. Disrupting habitual behaviors requires consciously interrogating existing personal narratives and embracing uncomfortable, focused effort, while avoiding therapeutic 'story fondling' that endlessly revisits problems without producing actionable behavioral change.
Huberman emphasizes that while biological protocols optimize energy and cognitive capacity, they cannot substitute for psychological reconciliation, interpersonal accountability, and community. He acknowledges his own ongoing struggles with letting go of doomed relationships and managing empathy, viewing personal growth not as a resolved state, but as a continuous, iterative practice.
## Background
本期内容由知名播客频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2024 年 8 月 29 日发布在 YouTube 平台上。视频简介指出，嘉宾为斯坦福大学医学院神经生物学与眼科学教授、《Huberman Lab》播客主理人安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman），对话深入探讨了多巴胺调控、冷水浴的真实机制、神经可塑性以及终身行为改变的科学准则。
## TL;DR
在这场长达四小时的深度对谈中，休伯曼教授首先拆解了多巴胺系统的动力学与“造浪池模型”，阐明极限刺激如何导致递质亏欠，并提出利用 NSDR、晨光照射及冷热暴露重塑神经可塑性与基准活力的具体方案。随后，他直面当下年轻群体面临的屏幕色情与即时满足成瘾危机，指出无门槛的高多巴胺刺激对现实亲密关系和神经系统的侵蚀。最后，休伯曼罕见地剖白内心，回顾了青年收容经历、恩师相继离世与近期舆论风波，强调高质量社交联结、日常微小互动以及“陪伴同处泥泞”的深厚友谊才是支撑生命穿越绝境的核心解药。
## Atmosphere & style
整场对话在硬核科学论述与极度坦诚的生命剖白之间自如流转，既有严密神经生物学机制的冷静拆解，又弥漫着历经生活重击后的厚重感与克制温情。休伯曼展现出褪去公众光环后的立体与脆弱，坦言自己在学术成功之外对人际放手与亲密关系的笨拙执念；与主持人 Steven Bartlett 的层层递进互动充满彼此信任与同频共振，带给听众一种既像在顶尖学术课堂受训、又似在午夜炉火旁倾听挚友倾诉灵魂的深邃沉浸感。
## Bulletin
- [01:05:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3953s) 多巴胺的核心功能并非单纯带来即时愉悦，而是驱动寻找奖赏的动机；极端的超常刺激（如成瘾性数字色情）会使基线受体下调并形成深度波谷，需通过 30 至 60 天的禁欲期才能重置神经回路。
- [42:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2527s) 成年人的神经可塑性必须依靠儿茶酚胺系统（多巴胺、去甲肾上腺素和肾上腺素）在警觉专注时对突触进行生化标记，随后在深层睡眠中完成突触物理重塑。
- [01:41:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6063s) 一次 10 到 20 分钟的非睡眠深度休息（NSDR）能够将大脑基底核中的多巴胺基线储备提升约 60%，可用于逆转午后疲态并显著提升后续学习效率。
- [01:24:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5082s) 极端温度对生理机能具有双向影响：刻意冷暴露追求的是激发儿茶酚胺的最小有效剂量（30 秒至 3 分钟），而高温桑拿或热水浴缸则会显著降低男性前向运动活性精子数。
- [02:44:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9892s) 对抗现代孤独危机无需复杂的庞大网络，每日清晨与数名核心好友互发“早安短信”即可建立心理锚点并激活灵长类部落归属感，深厚友谊在所有身心健康协议中居于首位。
## Key takeaways
- [01:05:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3953s) 多巴胺遵循“造浪池模型”：多巴胺激增后的波谷深度与峰值绝对高度成正比，持续追求极高刺激会导致神经递质耗竭并陷入反跳性空虚。
- [42:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2527s) 25 岁是神经重塑的分水岭：成年后改变大脑需要高度聚焦与警觉，依赖多巴胺和肾上腺素的生化标记，并在后续深度睡眠中完成突触重组。
- [01:41:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6063s) 非睡眠深度休息（NSDR）具有生物学补给功能：不仅能通过长呼气激活迷走神经以降低心率，还能补充基底核多巴胺基线达 60%。
- [01:24:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5082s) 刻意冷暴露应坚守“最小有效剂量”：30 秒至 3 分钟跨越逃离冲动足以激发长效儿茶酚胺释放以提升清醒度，过度冷浸泡反而易致神经系统崩盘。
- [01:44:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6290s) 晨光摄入与生物钟夹带机制：醒后 5-10 分钟到室外接受自然光可诱发健康的皮质醇脉冲并固化全天节律；连续 3 天早起锻炼即可夹带 SCN 生物钟以改善晚间入睡。
- [01:56:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7003s) 天然全食物重塑味觉与奖赏映射：严格摄入 1 至 2 周未加工天然食物可斩断大脑对糖油混合物的超常奖赏联结，甚至对高糖工业食品产生恶心排斥。
- [02:21:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=8519s) 网络色情通过无限新奇性滥用“柯立芝效应”：低努力门槛却带来高多巴胺刺激，不仅破坏天然不应期的伴侣依恋纽带，还会单向抬高性唤醒阈值并引发心理源性性功能障碍。
- [02:13:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7981s) 两种截然不同的创造力爆发状态：创造力往往在“身体极度静止、大脑高速运转”或“身体持续运动、大脑彻底放空”的极端状态下由潜意识网络喷涌而出。
- [02:44:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9892s) “早安短信”与日常微互动对抗孤独：人类作为灵长类对眼神接触与部落联结有硬性生物需求，维持 10 至 30 人的核心联系清单能建立神经安全感。
- [03:30:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12624s) 心理治疗不能沦为“故事抚弄”：有效的心理咨询必须带来洞见并促成现实行动，而晨光、运动与 NSDR 等生理工具不能完全替代深层心理创伤的修补。
- [03:31:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12703s) 退回“慈悲的观察者”并依靠身体导航：面对高度情绪化困扰时，将决策视角收拢至“未来 5 分钟做什么感觉是对的”，以身体的舒展与收缩状态指导微小行动。
- [03:50:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13850s) 高质量友谊的基石是“同处泥泞”：在至暗时刻与危机面前，最强大的情感支撑不是好为人师的建言，而是愿意放下手机、投入无结构时间并与朋友坐在一起的陪伴。
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=0s) 开场预告：跌落谷底的救赎、多巴胺波谷与改变大脑的工具
访谈在一段极具情绪张力的独白中拉开序幕。安德鲁·胡伯曼（Andrew Huberman）眼含热泪地回忆起自己人生中最灰暗的一段时光：“如果谈起这件事，我真的会掉眼泪。当时我生活里的一切都很顺利，但突然之间，‘咔嚓’一声，整个世界轰然倒塌。”在陷入绝境时，他深刻体会到了友谊的千钧之力——身边的挚友们毫不犹豫地赶到他的家中陪伴左右，“某一天我一抬头，发现雷克斯（Lex Fridman）就坐在房间里。”朋友们陪他坐在一起，将他从泥潭中拉起，唤醒他重新记起“自己究竟是谁”。这份雪中送炭的情谊，让他至今怀着无尽的感激。
紧接着的访谈精华混剪迅速勾勒出胡伯曼传奇而复杂的多面人生：他不仅是享誉全球的斯坦福大学神经生物学教授、颠覆大众认知的大热播客主，更曾是一个在成长过程中备受恐惧、抑郁与困惑折磨的叛逆少年。经历父母离异、频繁打架斗殴，甚至一度被送进封闭式寄宿收容机构，正是那段经历逼迫他必须夺回对人生的掌控权。面对普通人常感困顿无力的现状，胡伯曼抛出了核心观念：大脑重塑并不需要昂贵的门槛，世界上存在着大量零成本即可改变神经回路的科学工具。
在谈及核心神经递质多巴胺时，胡伯曼用“造浪池”（Wave Pool）做出生动比喻。他指出，无论是在饮食、运动、工作还是性行为等任何领域，一旦将刺激推向极限，随后必然会陷入严重的神经递质耗竭与刺激钝化状态，此时个体需要耗费成倍的能量才能达到相同的产出。而在极度匮乏的状态下，人们往往本能地抓取更多强刺激试图重新激活多巴胺回路，这反而会使神经系统陷向更深的亏欠低谷。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 多巴胺波谷耗竭循环机制
accDescr: 展现极限刺激后多巴胺耗竭与盲目寻求补偿导致的恶性循环
subgraph Stimulation["过度刺激阶段"]
A["极限推升刺激<br/>（饮食 / 运动 / 工作 / 性）"] --> B["多巴胺瞬时达到峰值"]
end
subgraph Depletion["耗竭与钝化阶段"]
B --> C["多巴胺骤降至基线之下"]
C --> D["出现耗竭感与钝化状态"]
end
subgraph Trap["恶性循环阶段"]
D --> E["试图用更强刺激再次激活"]
E --> F["进一步深陷多巴胺波谷"]
F -.-> A
end
```
---
### [01:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=108s) 频道里程碑：突破 700 万订阅与幕后团队致谢
主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）插播了一段真挚的致谢词。他坦言自己从未想过能亲口宣布这一刻——《CEO 日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）在 YouTube 上的订阅用户正式突破了 700 万大关。他向每周一和周四准时守候在屏幕前收看节目的全球观众表达了由衷的敬意，并强调这份成就绝非他一人之功，而是归功于幕后由近 50 名专业人员组成的庞大制作团队。
为了回馈观众的长期支持，史蒂芬宣布将延续上月大受欢迎的抽奖活动。今后每月都将为订阅者提供各类“金钱难买”的专属福利，包括与史蒂芬本人的线下面对面交流机会、现场特别活动门票，以及价值 1,000 英镑的礼品券等。史蒂芬真诚呼吁尚未点击关注的新观众加入社群，随后正式切入与胡伯曼的深度对谈。
---
### [02:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=161s) 人生使命：传递生物学之美与实用价值
对谈伊始，史蒂芬开门见山地向胡伯曼抛出核心拷问：如果将他在科研、播客及公共领域所做的一切成果，浓缩为一两句最纯粹的人生使命宣言，那会是什么？胡伯曼几乎没有迟疑地回答：“我想分享生物学的美感与实用价值（beauty and utility of biology）。”他渴望让普罗大众真正理解人体与大脑的精妙绝伦，并意识到哪怕只是对底层运行机制有一点微小的认知——无论是身体与光线、温度的交互，还是运动、思维与情绪的生化流动——都能在现实生活中对健康产生极其强大的正向推动力。
史蒂芬随即追问，胡伯曼如今已成为席卷全球的大众文化现象级人物，其输出的内容引发了空前的社会回响；在胡伯曼看来，这种现象级爆火背后的底层动因究竟是什么？他究竟填补了公众在自我认知领域的哪块巨大空白？
---
### [03:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=217s) 成为文化现象的根源：硬核长篇输出与实用协议
胡伯曼认为，人类作为一种物种，天生对自己抱有极度浓厚的好奇心：人们本能地渴望探究自己为何会有当下的感受，他人为何会产生特定的情绪与行为，且绝大多数人都深切渴望成为“最好的自己”。而他所做的工作，恰好提供了一副透过生物学、尤其是神经科学视角来剖析自身的透镜。与单纯的书斋学者不同，胡伯曼从年少时起就是一名深度践行者，长期参与竞技体育、钻研心理学，时刻在实验哪些行为和摄入物能够优化状态、哪些因素必须规避。作为斯坦福大学的终身教职教授，他拥有运转多年的独立实验室（尽管过去一年里为了专注播客传播而进行了大幅缩减），亲身主持过动物模型、人体生理学及临床试验，深谙严谨科研的底层规律。
在知识传播上，胡伯曼走出了一条反潮流的独特路径。他致力于将晦涩的同行评审论文转化为大众可执行的行动准则（Protocols），但他坚决反对将科学知识“弱智化”（dumbing things down）：
- **拒绝碎片化投喂**：面对短视频时代充斥的 90 秒快餐片段，他反其道而行之，坚持推出长达 1 至 4 个小时的高密度硬核专题长课。
- **坚信大众的学习潜力**：他秉持一种信念——只要用清晰透彻的方式讲授，人类拥有近乎无限的理解与学习能力；公众完全有能力接纳并掌握必要的专业医学术语。
- **授人以渔的知识赋能**：科学机制不需要堆砌花哨复杂的黑话来装点，只要赋予大众对底层原理的清晰认知，他们便能迅速将其融入日常生活，“剩下的事情自然水到渠成”。
史蒂芬由衷表示认同，并坦承自己在接下来的交流中若是遇到听不懂的科学概念，会毫不犹豫地请胡伯曼用最通俗直白的语言拆解，因为这代表了广大缺乏科学背景的普通听众的心声。
---
### [06:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=373s) 跌宕起伏的成长轨迹：从“野生放养”少年到神经科学家
史蒂芬指出，胡伯曼身上最令他着迷的矛盾感在于其个人背景。坐在眼前的是一位顶尖学术殿堂的学者，但回溯其过往，胡伯曼的人生绝非一帆风顺的坦途，其早期经历与当下的体面成就呈现出巨大的断裂与反差。史蒂芬直言，了解这种脱胎换骨式的蜕变历程极其关键——因为很多时候人们缺少的不只是健康协议（Protocols），而是践行这些协议所需的心理动力与底层能力；看懂了胡伯曼如何从迷惘少年蜕变为今日的他，便能彻底粉碎普通人对自己“做不到”的种种借口。
面对这段充满冒险与艰难的非线性人生，胡伯曼谦逊地表示，自己的经历“比一些人顺遂，但也比另一些人艰辛”。纵观生命历程，有两项特质自幼贯穿始终：一是探求未知的一线好奇心与冒险渴望，二是异于常人的“身体前倾”（forward-leaning / forward center of mass）的高强度心理张力。
谈及童年原生家庭，胡伯曼回忆起一段极具学术氛围却又充满温情的早期时光。他的父亲是一位阿根廷裔理论物理学家，早年赴美攻读研究生深造；母亲则是一位作家兼教师，在孩子年幼时全心投入家庭抚养。一家人总是一起围坐在餐桌旁共进晚餐。儿时的胡伯曼对生物学，特别是水族鱼类和热带鸟类表现出狂热的痴迷。他常常利用整个周末研究各种物种习性，以至于每周一老师不得不专门腾出课堂时间让他上台做专题汇报——这实际上是老师为了防止他在台下不停跟同学交头接耳的无奈之策。然而，这种平静在青春期戛然而止：
- **家庭裂变**：父母爆发了极具毁灭性与高冲突的离婚，平静的生活被瞬间撕碎。
- **精神流浪**：失去约束与庇护的胡伯曼走向了放任自流的“野生状态”（feral），开始在家庭之外野蛮生长。
- **亚文化归宿**：为了寻找没有任何家长参与痕迹的社交空间，他一头扎进了滑板运动与朋克摇滚文化，在街头的冲撞与反叛中寻求自我认同。
### [09:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=577s) 早期滑板亚文化与青春期的野蛮生长
在20世纪80年代末至90年代初，滑板文化才刚刚萌芽，远没有后来的世界极限运动会（X Games）或大型商业赞助。安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）回忆起自己近49岁的人生时提到，当年的滑板圈子里充斥着一群缺乏管教甚至无家可归的“野孩子”（feral kids）。休伯曼置身其中，虽然算不上顶尖高手，却有着一股死磕的狠劲。为了精进技术，他不断弄伤自己、频繁骨折，而身边的伙伴们却一个个展现出惊人天赋，甚至在高中时期就签约成为职业滑手，四处旅行参赛。与滑板相伴的代价是旷课，休伯曼坦言那时的自己极少去学校；他特别告诫年轻人切勿模仿，必须在具备高度大脑可塑性（hyperplastic）的年少时期抓紧接受基础教育。
尽管身处充斥着毒品与暴力的边缘环境，幸运的是休伯曼并未沾染恶习。他见证了身边许多同伴后来成为极限运动领域的行业巨头与传奇人物，例如创立滑板鞋品牌 DC Shoes 的丹尼·韦（Danny Way）和科林·麦凯（Colin McKay），也亲眼目睹了比他年长几岁的托尼·霍克（Tony Hawk）一步步走向神坛。那是一个完全由年轻人白手起家、依靠 DIY 精神自我构建的独特世界。
### [11:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=673s) 16岁的转折点：从消防员梦想到体能训练的顿悟
16岁时，休伯曼迎来了初恋，这项变化让他逐渐脱离了滑板圈。当时他的脚部反复骨折，滑板水平停滞不前，同伴们纷纷向前迈进。坠入爱河的休伯曼很想与女友相伴，同时不得不像个成年人一样现实地思考未来：“我学业一团糟，几乎不去上学，但我需要工作来支撑我们两个人的生活。”他把目光投向了消防员这一职业。为了通过严苛的体能选拔，休伯曼开始接触抗阻力量训练。在那个年代，进健身房举铁的几乎只有美式橄榄球运动员、准备入伍的新兵和健美选手，而休伯曼对这些身份毫无兴趣。
刚开始举铁时，身形瘦长（身高猛蹿了一英尺）的休伯曼连一个引体向上都完成不了。然而仅仅一个夏天过去，他便能自如完成引体向上。他惊喜地发现，力量训练中存在一种极其确定的因果关系：“付出肉体上的努力，就能直接换来能力或结果的增长。”到了高三，他又加入了越野跑队，这种“努力即有回报”的机制在跑步中得到了进一步验证：今天跑坡时肺部火烧般剧痛，下一次同样的坡道就能轻松征服。相比于无论怎么死磕都看不到成效的滑板，跑步和举铁让他体会到了可控的掌控感。自16岁起，抗阻训练和跑步便彻底融入了他的每周生活日程。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 努力与回报的反馈模式对比
accDescr: 对比滑板运动与体能训练在休伯曼眼中的输入与输出反馈机制差异
subgraph Skateboarding["滑板运动反馈机制"]
A["极大的肉体与时间投入"] --> B["反复受伤、骨折"]
B --> C["技能进展难以预期 / 挫败感"]
end
subgraph Fitness["体能与耐力训练反馈机制"]
D["高强度的抗阻训练与越野跑"] --> E["肺部灼痛 / 肌肉疲劳"]
E --> F["身体适应性增强 / 引体向上突破"]
F --> G["确定的能力提升与正向掌控感"]
end
```
### [13:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=781s) 混乱的大学第一年与1994年独立日危机
高中毕业后，女友比休伯曼高一届先去读了大学。为了能陪伴在她身边，休伯曼常常蜷缩在自己的车里或挤在她的宿舍中度日。为了彻底留下来，休伯曼硬着头皮申请了该校并奇迹般地获得了录取。然而，他的大一生活却陷入了一片混乱。过去混迹街头沾染的戾气尚未褪去，他频频卷入斗殴与肢体冲突。尽管他不沾烟酒毒品，生活节奏却彻底失序，旷课成了家常便饭，学业濒临崩塌，只能靠在一家小面包圈店送货糊口。
转折点发生在整整30年前的1994年7月4日独立日。休伯曼参加了一场烤肉聚会，期间遭遇一伙企图入室盗窃的人，双方爆发了激烈的打斗。（休伯曼顺带提及了一桩趣事：当时他女友的室友后来成为了著名音乐人杰克·约翰逊 / Jack Johnson 的妻子，约翰逊至今仍记得那场派对）。虽然休伯曼和朋友们抢回了财物且无人受重伤，但回到住处后，未满18岁的休伯曼坐在房间里陷入了前所未有的恐慌与反思：大一彻底荒废、随时可能因打架惹上官司、送面包圈毫无前途，既没能当上消防员，也没能成为职业运动员。他清醒地意识到：“如果我不做出改变，我过去经历的一切挫折都将毫无意义。”
### [15:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=903s) 那封决定命运的信：社区学院重塑求知欲
在那个充满顿悟的独立日，休伯曼坐下来给父母以及自己写下了一封极其严肃的信，立誓彻底扭转自己的人生轨迹。这封信至今仍被他和母亲完好珍藏。他没有选择直接退学，而是办理了大学休学（保留返校权利），随后搬回老家。他白天在家乡的小餐馆当勤杂工（busboy）收拾盘子，每周保持各三次的高强度跑步和抗阻训练，其余时间全部投入到当地的社区学院（Community College）。
休伯曼将全副精力押注在系统化学术知识的吸纳上，他下定决心：“我不在乎自己喜不喜欢这门课，我只相信自己的学习能力。”在此之前，他已展现出对热带鱼、滑板文化、朋克摇滚以及体能训练的惊人钻研能力，并且极擅长向顶尖专家请教——他曾专程向指导过多利安·耶茨（Dorian Yates）的传奇健美大师迈克·门策尔（Mike Mentzer）汲取高强度训练心得，啃遍所有能找到的康复和健身书籍。休伯曼将这种近乎痴迷的求知欲全面转移到正规课业中，疯狂吸收数学、自然科学、艺术史和英国文学等所有课程的养分，宛如一块干瘪的海绵疯狂吸水。
- **信件誓言**：1994年7月4日写给父母与自己的立志信，成为人生秩序重组的契约。
- **求知范围**：不仅限于理科，还广泛涉猎艺术史、英国文学与经典数学课程。
- **身体哲学**：专注于力量、奔跑耐力与功能性体魄，从不盲目追求肌肉肥大（hypertrophy）。
### [17:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1023s) 苦行僧式的大学蜕变与学术科研晋升之路
在社区学院苦读一年后，休伯曼重返大学校园。他独自租住在一间单间公寓里，过着如同苦行僧般极致自律的生活。在大学剩余的岁月里，他的日常被精准地切割为几个固定模块：全身心研读课业、高强度体能锻炼、陪伴女友、长跑，以及在背景音中播放90年代初的朋克摇滚（如 Rancid、Operation Ivy）、鲍勃·迪伦（Bob Dylan）和专注学习时的古典音乐。
曾经那个在斗殴中挂彩的混小子彻底消失了，取而代之的是全科全A的顶尖优等生。昔日熟人偶遇他时甚至不敢相认。为了保持适度的社交平衡，他允许自己每个月仅参加一次聚会派对，但始终坚守远离毒品与酒精的底线。最终，休伯曼以优等生荣誉（Honors）本科毕业，开启了一路高歌猛进的学术生涯：
1. **加州大学伯克利分校（UC Berkeley）**：攻读并获得硕士学位；
2. **博士与博士后阶段**：完成神经生物学博士学位，随后进入斯坦福大学（Stanford University）进行博士后研究；
3. **建立独立实验室**：在加州大学圣地亚哥分校（UC San Diego）神经科学系建立个人实验室，潜心于重大神经科学原创发现与论文发表；
4. **重返斯坦福**：凭借扎实的学术成就被斯坦福大学终身教职（tenure）聘回。
在整个高强度的科研长跑中，体能训练始终作为他底层精力的支撑。到了2019年，休伯曼开始在 Instagram 上分享神经科学知识。起初没有任何复杂的行为方案（protocols），纯粹是出于童年时期向别人介绍热带鱼般的热忱，向公众科普光线、眼睛生理学与多巴胺机制。到了2020年，在公关顾问罗伯·摩尔（Rob Moore）的协助下，休伯曼正式着手筹备自己的科普书籍出版计划。
### [19:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1142s) 播客的意外诞生与全情投入的代价
2020年新冠疫情爆发前，Andrew Huberman 正筹划出版一本书，并和朋友盘算着书出版后如何去各大播客做宣传。疫情骤然降临后，他决定暂缓出书，朋友顺势提议：“你何不现在就直接去上播客呢？”于是整个2020年，在既没有新书也没有个人网站的情况下，Huberman 前后参加了大约20到30档播客节目的录制，纯粹出于分享科学知识的热情而乐在其中。到了2021年1月，他在洛杉矶一处峡谷区域租下了一个类似学术休假（sabbatical）用的小住所，支起摄像机，带着他的英国斗牛犬 Costello，并在制作人 Rob Moore 的协助下，于1月1日前后正式推出了《Huberman Lab》播客，继续在镜头前畅聊那些他认为迷人且对大众有用的科学知识。
这段经历在外人看来如同一条顺遂光鲜的弧线，但 Huberman 坦承背后充满了自我怀疑与失衡的牺牲。当时他已49岁，生活中曾将绝大部分精力单向倾斜于科研与工作，虽然经历过多段美好的感情，但为了能全身心投入所挚爱的事业，他主动推迟了结婚与组建家庭的计划。一路上，他目睹了许多朋友因药物滥用、酗酒、抑郁症、自杀或意外而离世。驱动他走到今天的核心特质，在于他对探索未知领域有着无法遏制的渴望，并且一旦学到新知，就忍不住想倾囊相授，“只要有人愿意倾听，我就迫不及待地想把所学分享出去”。
- 2020年间无书、无网站推广，纯粹受邀参与了20至30场播客访谈。
- 2021年1月1日正式创立《Huberman Lab》播客，录制地点位于洛杉矶的一处山谷隐居所，常驻伙伴包括爱犬 Costello 与制作人 Rob Moore。
- 个人牺牲包括长期推迟婚姻与家庭生活，将核心精力锚定在科学求知与传播上。
---
### [21:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1274s) 迷茫的青春期与被送入全日制辅导机构
主持人和 Huberman 探讨起创伤（trauma）的主观性：对某些人来说是巨大的创伤，在经历了穿越撒哈拉沙漠、翻越铁丝网逃离非洲的综合格斗选手弗朗西斯·纳干诺（Francis Ngannou）眼里可能根本不算什么，但早年创伤往往决定了一个人是被生活拖拽还是被野心驱动。话题随后切入 Huberman 14、15岁时的青少年危机。彼时的他陷入重度迷茫与抑郁，在学校里总是拉低连帽衫把头埋在课桌上睡觉或乱画，长期旷课逃学。家庭关系的破裂、步入青春期的荷尔蒙躁动，加上对人生的困惑，使他整日生活在恐惧、悲伤与混乱之中。
某天，学校辅导员再次将他叫到办公室，随后几名陌生人推门而入，Huberman 立刻意识到大事不妙——他们是来强行把他带走的。无论是出于朋友的暗中干预还是父母的决定，他很快被送进了一所全日制封闭式治疗机构（residential treatment program）。那是他人生中第一次尝到失去自由的滋味：防盗门在身后重重锁上，他被关进由不良少年与问题儿童构成的走廊里，白天是密集的一对一心理咨询与团体治疗，每天仅允许在院区内进行一小时的户外运动，整座机构就像是少管所与精神病院的混合体。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 青年Huberman被送入辅导机构的诱因与过程
accDescr: 展现家庭破裂、厌学情绪与最终被送入封闭辅导机构的链条
subgraph Trigger["心理危机与诱因"]
A["家庭破裂与情绪困惑"] --> B["青春期抑郁与迷茫"]
B --> C["长期旷课逃学、惹是生非"]
end
subgraph Intervention["强制介入"]
C --> D["学校办公室约谈"]
D --> E["外来人员现场带走"]
end
subgraph Confinement["全日制治疗机构"]
E --> F["失去人身自由<br>（封闭门锁）"]
F --> G["个别咨询与团体治疗"]
F --> H["限制性活动<br>（每日1小时院内运动）"]
end
```
---
### [24:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1468s) 封闭病房里的生存课：直面问题与自我救赎
机构内划分为不同单元，除了 Huberman 所在的中学年龄段，还有幼童单元和成年人单元。一位辅导员曾对他们说：“听着，那边的幼童和成年人都是精神失常（crazy），而你们不算疯，只是惹了麻烦。”但同病房的一个少年立刻犀利拆穿：“他们也是这么跟另外两个病区的人说的。”他的室友外貌神似连环杀手理查德·拉米雷斯（Richard Ramirez，“夜间潜行者”），身上布满自残割伤的痕迹，起初十分吓人，深聊之后 Huberman 才发现对方也只是个承受着巨大痛苦的普通孩子。病房里的孩子们各有各的创伤，有的深陷重度毒瘾，有的暴力倾向严重，有的存在自杀企图。
在里面待了两三天后，Huberman 清醒地意识到想离开这里的唯一办法就是配合治疗、“把该做的事做完”。他开始敞开心扉倾诉自己的遭遇，同时也学会通过倾听他人来反思自己。他看清了自己内心的缺失——人本质上都需要安全感、接纳度以及来自父母的“护栏”（guardrails），而当时的他三者全无。Huberman 自认并不是个容易情绪外露的人，但内在感受极其敏锐深沉，父母婚姻的碎裂和离家上大学的姐姐的缺席，在80年代末、90年代初那个单亲家庭尚不普遍的时代，带给了他毁灭性的心理冲击。
- 机构由青少年、更小儿童、成年人三个单元组成，日间为男女混合活动，夜间分宿舍封闭式管理。
- 认识到青少年成长所需的三大基石：安全感（safety）、被接纳（acceptance）以及明确的规则界限/护栏（guardrails）。
---
### [26:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1612s) 旧金山 EMB 街头滑板文化的庇护与洗礼
在家庭秩序崩塌的岁月里，滑板成为了 Huberman 的避难所。当时的街头滑板全凭民间自发组织，只要有机会，他就会蹭车或坐公交车去往旧金山著名的内河码头广场（Embarcadero Plaza，简称 EMB）。这里与费城的洛夫公园（Love Park）、纽约的华盛顿广场公园（Washington Square Park）齐名，是全美乃至全球街头滑板的核心圣地。在 EMB，年轻的 Huberman 接受了残酷而真实的“街头教育”，与许多不上学、自由游荡在街头的混迹者打交道，见识了诸多远超他当时年龄该接触的复杂阴暗面。
然而，在那些看似出格与混乱的表象之下，孕育着惊人的创造力与凝聚力。Huberman 的好友 Jake Rosenberg 当年扛着一架 Hi8 摄像机混迹在此，镜头记录下了 Mike Carroll、Henry Sanchez、Marc Gonzales 等初代滑板传奇的身影，随后参与制作了奠定街头滑板历史的 Plan B 系列滑板影片，日后更执导了讲述滑手 Danny Way 飞跃中国长城的纪录片《Waiting for Lightning》。另一位日后成为《Huberman Lab》官方摄影师的 Mike Blabac，当年开着车从密歇根一路漂泊而来，为了生计甚至偷偷睡在服装店 Gap 仓库的衣服堆里，白天则守在内河码头抓拍滑板动作，最终成长为极限运动与人像摄影领域的标杆人物。街头文化不仅赋予了迷茫少年们一个容身之所，也意外塑造了他们日后的职业轨迹。
- 旧金山 Embarcadero Plaza（EMB）是与费城 Love Park、纽约 Washington Square Park 齐名的90年代滑板圣地。
- Jake Rosenberg 用 Hi8 摄像机跟拍 Mike Carroll、Henry Sanchez 与 Marc Gonzales，开创了 Plan B 传奇滑板录像带，后来拍摄了关于 Danny Way 飞越长城的纪录片《Waiting for Lightning》。
- 摄影师 Mike Blabac 早期从密歇根奔赴旧金山，露宿于 Gap 门店的服装堆中，靠拍摄滑手成长为顶级极限运动摄影大师，后担纲《Huberman Lab》播客摄影师。
### [28:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1725s) 从滑板与 DIY 街头文化到实验室的疯狂投入
在旧金山内河码头（Embarcadero）接触滑板的经历，给安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）最深刻的烙印是那种蓬勃的“DIY 精神”：凭着一腔热情，在有限的现实条件下选定一门手艺，然后纯粹地记录与创造。休伯曼坦言自己深爱朋克摇滚但毫无音乐细胞，滑板水平虽不差但也绝不可能走上职业道路，但他从中领悟到了极其关键的道理——当你狂热地热爱某件事、渴望尽可能多地吸收知识并沉浸于其文化时，你必须学会剔除其中的消极破坏因素，不让自己陷入法律或人身麻烦，然后把这股极致的热情全部转移到正途上。对于休伯曼而言，这个承载全部狂热能量的新容器就是学术研究。
进入研究生院后，他加入了神经生物学学者芭芭拉·查普曼（Barbara Chapman，后不幸因病去世）的实验室。查普曼教授当时对他说：“听着，我准备生两个孩子，这段时间会非常忙，但我们账上有科研经费，实验室就交给你了。只要不把实验室烧掉、不弄伤你自己，你就放手去做实验，玩得开心点。”这种绝对的信任让年轻的休伯曼如获至宝。他觉得自己拥有用不完的精力，甚至根本不想回家，于是干脆常年住在实验室里——在水槽里刷牙，去健身房锻炼洗澡，然后立刻跑回实验台。周围的人纷纷警告他“你会彻底累垮的”，休伯曼却觉得不可理喻，因为每周沉浸在实验中工作 80 到 100 个小时带给他的是纯粹的快乐。从研究生到博士后阶段，他全身心投入研究，期间为了赚些零花钱，还利用早年的街头积累为传奇滑板杂志《Thrasher》撰写过音乐专栏，始终保持着与滑板亚文化的微弱联结；升任初级教授后，虽然需要把全部精力彻底收拢到实验室建设中，但这种全情倾注的模式已经牢固确立。
### [30:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=1836s) 基于兴趣的注意力、出笼拍摄大白鲨与“不可越界”的教训
休伯曼借用他极为推崇的作家兼导师玛莎·贝克（Martha Beck）的术语指出，许多人（包括被诊断为 ADHD 的群体）的大脑实质上是一种“基于兴趣的注意力系统”（interest-based attention system）。医学文献和日常经验都表明，当患有 ADHD 的儿童或成年人面对真正热爱的事物时，他们的注意力不仅没有缺陷，反而会像激光般精准聚焦，专注度直接飙升到“十一分满分”。休伯曼回顾自己的人生轨迹，从早年对鱼类、热带鸟类、滑板、朋克音乐的迷恋，到后来对生物学神经科学的痴迷，他始终是把所有筹码一股脑推向桌中央“全押”（All in）。而驱动这一过程的核心动力，不仅是探索未知的快感，更是与他人分享知识的热望。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 执念驱动与风险边界模型
accDescr: 展示兴趣驱动系统如何通过极端投入产生突破，同时需要理性边界防止自我毁灭
subgraph Engine["核心驱动：兴趣注意力系统"]
A["内在极致好奇与激情<br/>(滑板 / 朋克 / 神经生物学)"] --> B["激光级专注聚焦<br/>(注意力 11/10 状态)"]
B --> C["全情投入与倾囊分享"]
end
subgraph Challenge["探索与边界"]
C --> D["突破常规的极端实验<br/>(瓜达卢佩岛无笼拍鲨)"]
D --> E{"遭遇真实危机<br/>(水下供气衰竭)"}
E -->|缺乏节制| F["自我毁灭陷阱"]
E -->|汲取教训| G["理性前行：<br/>走得远，但绝不走得太远"]
end
```
这种追求极致、不知疲倦的探索欲也曾险些酿成大祸。在休伯曼建立自己的实验室研究人类应激与压力机制时，他原本打算通过虚拟现实（VR）呈现极端环境。然而他的好友、好莱坞顶级肖像摄影师兼无笼大白鲨摄影专家迈克尔·穆勒（Michael Muller）在体验后直接讽刺道：“你这 VR 刺激源烂透了，全是 CGI 特效，根本没有真实感，一点都吓不到人。不如我们直接去瓜达卢佩岛（Guadalupe Island）拍大白鲨，而且离开防鲨笼拍。”年轻气盛的休伯曼立刻考取了潜水执照，第一年老老实实呆在铁笼里拍摄，到了第二年竟真的冒险游出防护笼。休伯曼郑重强调绝不建议任何人效仿这种行为——因为那一次他在深水中遭遇了严重的供气系统故障，虽然凭借本能脱险幸存，但那种濒死的恐怖让他彻底看清了激进与冒险的底线。他引用了英国著名神经学家奥利弗·萨克斯（Oliver Sacks）早年老师的一句评语来警醒自己：“奥利弗会走得很远，前提是他不要走得太远。”他认识到，即便一个人的成长轨迹是非线性的，可以涉足代码、AI、数学、游戏或科学等不同领域，也绝不能以轻率和鲁莽对待生活，因为沿途布满了坠入失败和毁灭深渊的滑梯。
### [34:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2057s) 寄给父母的信与自我救赎：从街头浪荡子到自律的“学习怪物”
谈及人生的关键转折，休伯曼详细讲述了那封寄给父母的信背后的落魄场景。那年夏天，将近 19 岁的休伯曼在加州伊斯拉维斯塔（Isla Vista）的帕萨多街（Pasado Street）一栋房子里非法“蹲坑式”借住（squatting），整间屋子里连一张床都没有，唯一的同伴是第一任女友留给他的一只名叫艾里斯（Iris）的雪貂。女友此前因为他游手好闲、毫无前途而果断甩了他。从小混迹在滑板少年中的休伯曼早已习惯了浪荡流浪的生活，能在车里、面包车或任何阴暗角落像木乃伊一样裹着睡袋入睡。为了省下房租，他那年夏天就靠一个枕头、几张毯子和一个睡袋与雪貂相依为命。在经历了一场恶劣的七月四日街头斗殴后，休伯曼回到住所，终于意识到自己的人生不能再这样烂下去了。那个周末结束前，他坐在地板上给父母写下了一封长信。
信中休伯曼直面了家庭破裂给年轻内心带来的撕裂感。他明白父母彼此不合、无法继续生活在一起（两人后来各自重组家庭，生活幸福），但在他们激烈的离异拉锯战中，巨大的冲突与伤害全数倾泻在了他的身上。然而，在信里休伯曼没有选择控诉，而是正式宣布原谅父母，并明确告知他们：自己即将彻底接管并负责自己的人生，唯一的方法就是建立极端的专注和秩序。写完这封信后，他又给自己写了一封内容完全一致的信，把内在的决绝意志外化为具体的契约。
- **前女友的复合与“怪物”评价**：在他痛改前非、开始在学业上展现出近乎疯魔的刻苦之后，前女友重新回到了他身边；大约一年后，看到每天疯狂学习、极早起床的休伯曼，她忍不住感叹：“你简直变成了一个怪物——一个疯狂上课、疯狂汲取知识的怪物。”
- **反叛环境的自律着装**：在伊斯拉维斯塔这个随性闲散的海滨大学城里，周围所有人都是人字拖、沙滩巡航自行车、肥大短裤和松垮长 T 恤的打扮，而休伯曼为了与周遭的颓废彻底划清界限，反其道而行之：每天把自己收拾得干干净净，穿正装衬衫、扎上皮带，将衬衫下摆严整地束进裤腰里，在路人诧异不解的注视下大步迈进教室。
- **自我教养（Parenting Myself）的核心顿悟**：休伯曼意识到，在接近 19 岁的时候，人已经不能再把失败归咎于原生家庭或年少无知。深爱父母的同时，他学会了在精神上同时扮演自己的父亲与母亲，用极其严格的纪律、自我关怀与秩序重塑了支离破碎的自我。
### [38:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2282s) 人生的转折点：来自“彻底失败”的恐惧与自我认知
安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）回忆起自己在青年时期目睹的残酷现实：当年身边有朋友卷入酒驾事件，其中一位技术极其出色的滑板手 Phil Shaw 就因他人酒驾而在车祸中丧生；还有许多同龄人要么横死街头，要么锒铛入狱。他深切体会到，人一旦跨过18岁，行为后果会呈现“超级超线性（super-superlinear）”的爆发式恶化，一个小错误就可能引发毁灭性的灾难。正是在那种时刻，他猛然警醒，一把拽住自己下坠的生活：“干脆拼一把吧（Let's do this）。”
主持人对此非常感慨，提出许多人其实都在寻找这样一个“决定以不同方式生活”的顿悟时刻，并询问这种转变是否能够被主动加速，还是必须经历更多的痛苦。休伯曼毫不犹豫地给出了答案：“**恐惧（Fear）**。”他坦言，当时自己快满 19 岁，女友离开了他，自己毫无一技之长——滑板玩不好且总是摔断骨头，乐器一窍不通，全镇的人都在冲浪而自己毫无建树。他虽然可以去考消防员，但除此之外没有任何能在社会上立足的技能。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 走出人生低谷的决策路径
accDescr: 展现休伯曼从恐惧、自我审视到选择大学并建立正向反馈的思维过程
subgraph Ground["陷入困境"]
A["现实危机与恐惧<br/>(朋友亡狱 / 一无所长 / 情感破裂)"]
end
subgraph Realization["认知觉醒：认识你自己"]
B["审视自身优势<br/>(出众记忆力 + 强烈的求知欲)"]
C["选择确定性环境<br/>(大学：规则清晰、阶梯式容错支持)"]
end
subgraph Momentum["正向反馈与重塑"]
D["投入注意力与学习"] --> E["取得好成绩并建立效能感"]
E --> F["将挫折/B+转化为毕生专注的领域<br/>(神经发育学)"]
end
A --> B
B --> C
C --> D
```
他唯一确信的，是自己的学习能力和极佳的记忆力。他回想起作家瑞安·霍利迪（Ryan Holiday）曾提出的观点：**混得最差的人恰恰最不应该从大学辍学**，因为现实世界远比大学残酷得多。在大学里，规则是确定且清晰的：
- 以希腊神话课为例，只要坐到前排、集中注意力、听懂老师划定的重点即可；
- 哪怕跟不上，还有教授答疑时间（Office Hours）和助教（TA）兜底；整个系统设计出来的目的，就是只要你照章办事就几乎不可能挂科；
- 相反，滑板世界充斥着不可控性（左脚踝一次次扭伤骨折，却一无所获）。
休伯曼在大学里重新体会到了掌控感。第一年虽然一团糟，但随后他全拿了 A。唯独在 Ben Reese 教授的神经发育学课程中拿到了一门让他耿耿于怀的“B+”。这种未能达成完美的挫败感，反而成了烙印在他神经系统里的信号，促使他日后在研究生阶段毫不犹豫地选择主攻神经发育学。休伯曼强调古希腊神谕所说的“认识你自己（Know thyself）”的重要性：清楚自己的能量开关在哪里，学会把所谓的劣势转化为独特的优势。
- 决定人生剧变的驱动力往往源于对“沦为永久失败者”的极度恐惧。
- 真正高水准的创造力固然源于对技艺的热爱（love of craft），但在找到所爱之前，人们往往需要被“吓”上一大跳，才敢迈出寻找新路径的第一步；人际关系亦是如此，有时只有当你对留在现状感到痛不欲生时，才会有勇气离开。
---
### [42:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2527s) 神经可塑性：从科学发现到终身大脑重塑的底层规则
主持人谈到，休伯曼关于“神经可塑性（Neuroplasticity）”的科普让他感到莫大的解脱与希望：这意味着一个人当下的身份、习惯或所处的低谷并非不可逆的终身判决，大脑在生理层面完全具备重塑的能力。
休伯曼随后系统梳理了神经可塑性的科学脉络与生理机制：
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 神经可塑性的年龄差异与触发条件
accDescr: 对比25岁前后大脑重塑机制的不同触发条件
subgraph Young["25岁之前 (发育期)"]
Y1["被动经验吸收<br/>(Passive Experience)"] --> Y2["大脑天然作为变化的模版<br/>自发重构突触"]
end
subgraph Adult["25岁之后 (成年期)"]
A1["高度警觉 (Alertness)<br/>+ 极端聚焦 (Focus)"] --> A2["神经调质激增<br/>(多巴胺/肾上腺素/去甲肾上腺素)"]
A2 --> A3["深度睡眠 (Sleep)<br/>物理巩固突触重构"]
end
```
休伯曼的学术“曾祖父辈（scientific great-grandparents）”戴维·休伯尔（David Hubel）与托斯滕·维泽尔（Torsten Wiesel）因阐明神经可塑性的基础机制而荣获诺贝尔奖；随后迈克·默策尼奇（Michael Merzenich）等科学家证实：**神经可塑性并非青少年专属，而是人类神经系统贯穿终身的固有特性**。无论是学习新技能、戒除旧行为模式，还是治愈心理创伤，成年大脑在任何年龄都能够被重塑，只是其遵循的“触发规则”随年龄增长而改变：
1. **25 岁之前**：大脑是一张专为改变而生的模板，处于快速适应外部环境并建立预测模型的发育期。在此阶段，仅仅通过被动的日常经验（passive experience），大脑结构就会被自发塑造（例如青少年时期听过的音乐会终身带有独特的情感印记）。
2. **25 岁之后**：大脑绝不会漫无目的地随意改变（“如果没必要，大脑为什么要改变？”）。成年人要激活神经可塑性，必须引发**神经化学环境的显著转变**。知识无法通过像“在房间里播放关于 AI、大语言模型或神经科学的背景音频”那种被动的“渗透法（osmosis）”进入脑海。
**成年人诱发神经重塑的核心条件：**
- **单次试误学习（One-trial learning）与创伤机制**：强烈的恐惧或创伤之所以能在一瞬间被永久铭记，是因为极端的情绪冲击引发了肾上腺素（adrenaline/epinephrine）等神经调质（neuromodulators）的海量释放。大脑将这种剧烈的状态改变识别为“异常重大事件”，在接下来的几天内迅速重新排列神经回路以防御未来风险。所幸的是，通过科学的心理治疗等工具，可以将事件上的“情绪负荷（emotional load）”脱钩剥离，保留记忆却消除恐惧。
- **主动学习的生化引擎——儿茶酚胺（Catecholamines）**：成年人主动重塑大脑必须具备两个先决条件：**保持警觉（alert）**与**高度聚焦（focused）**。当你全神贯注时，脑内会释放多巴胺（dopamine）、肾上腺素（epinephrine）与去甲肾上腺素（norepinephrine）三种儿茶酚胺分子。它们会急剧收窄视觉与听觉感受野，形成犹如聚光灯般的“注意力圆锥（cones of attention）”，从而在细胞层面为神经重构“打上标记”。
- **睡眠的巩固作用**：注意力与警觉仅仅是启动重塑的扳机，真正物理意义上的神经元突触重联，发生在随后的深度睡眠之中。只有经历充足的睡眠，当天的专注体验才能真正固化为你大脑结构的一部分，彻底改变认知与行为。
### [47:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=2859s) 成人神经可塑性与“老狗也能学新把戏”
青少年时期之所以任何微小的事情都显得意义非凡，是因为当时体内充斥着大量的激素和神经调节物质，那种神经化学环境让看似琐碎的经历——比如听到一首歌——产生巨大的情感冲击。然而到了成年期，大脑需要更强烈的刺激才能引发结构性的改变。成年人坠入爱河，或者在美术馆被一幅画深深震撼时，确实会被永远改变；但仅仅是在大都会艺术博物馆（The Met）漫步一圈，并不意味着每幅画都会铭刻在大脑中。神经系统在进化上极其讲求效率，“除非迫不得已，否则绝不轻易改变”；而为了保证个体的生存与安全，大脑对恐惧的反应存在不对称的敏感性。不过，爱、兴奋以及由衷的赞赏同样是重塑大脑的强效刺激。安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）提到好友、传奇音乐制作人里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）常说的感悟：当你对某种事物怀有纯粹的爱与沉浸时，大脑就会发生改变。要实现神经重塑，必须在高度警觉的状态下全神贯注于目标，并随后通过睡眠、冥想和深度休息来实际完成神经环路的重新布线。
许多人随着年龄增长变得顽固，安于日常惯性，并深信“老狗学不会新把戏”（you can't teach an old dog new tricks），这种信念本身构成了改变的阻碍。休伯曼明确驳斥了这一谬论，指出无论是人还是动物，在生命任何阶段都具备学习能力。位于圣地亚哥的索尔克研究所（Salk Institute）曾对八九十岁的终末期癌症患者开展过里程碑式的研究：受试者生前摄入了一种能标记新生成神经元的染色剂，死后脑组织显微镜分析证实，即使在生命垂危的高龄阶段，海马区等部位依然能观察到新生神经元。休伯曼特别澄清，人类绝大多数的学习并不是依靠增加新的神经元，而是依赖神经连接的重组、突触强化或弱化。无论一个人是50岁、70岁还是90岁，神经可塑性都真实存在，只要有足够的注意力、刺激与休息，任何人都能掌握新技能。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 神经可塑性发生机制
accDescr: 展示神经连接在刺激、警觉注意以及休息睡眠中重组的流程。
subgraph Trigger["触发阶段"]
A["强刺激 / 情感驱动<br/>（恐惧、热爱、深度惊叹）"] --> B["高度警觉与专注<br/>（全神贯注于新行为/新信息）"]
end
subgraph Consolidation["巩固重塑阶段"]
B --> C["深度休息 / 睡眠 / 冥想"]
C --> D["神经连接重排<br/>（突触强化/弱化，极少更新神经元）"]
end
```
- 青少年大脑对外界事件赋予极高意义，源于其特殊的激素与神经调节物水平；成年后的大脑重塑则需要更高的刺激阈值。
- 索尔克研究所的高龄脑解剖证据表明，即使在80至90岁的高龄，人脑中仍可观察到新神经元的产生。
- 人类成年期的绝大部分学习与行为重构，是通过对既有神经突触连接的强化与修剪（神经可塑性）完成，而非大范围新增神经元。
---
### [51:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3080s) 故事的陷阱：如何打破固化习惯与身份认同
史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）顺着话题谈到习惯的打破，坦言自己生活中有一些积习难改的行为，并逐渐将其内化为“这就是我”（who I am）。他分享了自己童年家庭环境极度混乱无序的经历：门上有洞，房间杂物堆积到天花板仿佛囤积狂的巢穴，后院杂草长到六英尺高。在这种环境长大后，他成了一个不拘小节、十分邋遢的人；尽管事业有成，他一直想戒除这一坏习惯，却常安慰自己说这是童年就已经在大脑里“硬编码”（hardwired）的身份特质。休伯曼对此表示理解，并透露有些顶级学者的大脑极度敏锐，办公室内却混乱不堪。例如休伯曼已故的博士后导师本·巴雷斯（Ben Barres），桌上堆积如山，但他能像激光一样穿透杂乱，严禁任何人碰他的东西，因为他确切知道每一样东西的位置；而休伯曼自己则属于必须把桌面彻底清理干净才能动工的类型。
休伯曼指出，“故事”（stories）是人类组织和储存知识的核心机制，它极具力量，但也极其危险。人类不靠清单生活，而是将记忆与经验包装为有起承转合、有情绪起伏的叙事。比如教小孩子学英文字母，不会机械地念诵，而是用一首抑扬顿挫的儿歌编织成完整结构。当史蒂文对自己叙述“我童年生活在乱室中，我的大脑被硬编码成了混乱型人格，只有遭遇极度惊吓才能改变”时，这个叙事便拥有了完整的逻辑闭环和深层意义，反而固化了陋习。要想借助神经可塑性改变坏习惯，关键在于解构原有的故事叙述。休伯曼借用拜伦·凯蒂（Byron Katie）的质疑法解释道，与其对自己说谎式地强行灌输“我其实是个爱整洁的人”（大脑根本不会相信），不如通过不断提出疑问来松动既有神经通路：
| 固有叙事阶段 | 传统心理应对（强行对抗） | 神经科学视角的重塑路径（质疑解构） |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **认定自身特质** | 强迫进行自我肯定：“我是一个非常整洁的人” | 注入探究性问题：“我凭什么断定自己本质上不爱干净？” |
| **归咎于过去机制** | 认定已无法更改：“坏习惯是童年彻底‘硬编码’的” | 追问概念漏洞：“既然我在那么多领域能改变，习惯到底是什么？” |
| **神经通路反应** | 产生认知失调与抵触，难以形成有效信念 | 打破原有故事的流畅度（fluency），为新行为腾出神经突触空间 |
休伯曼强调，人类大脑天生热爱提问。通过多角度持续发问，人会意识到阻碍自己改变的并非不可动摇的生理结构，而仅仅是对某个叙事长期的“认知流畅度”（fluency）。一旦中断了这一固有叙事的顺畅感，潜意识中的理所当然便会被瓦解，进而为行为模式的实际重置创造生理前提。
### [56:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3414s) 打破习惯回路：为什么大脑需要“打破叙事”与注意力经济学
从生物学与神经科学的视角审视，心理学、现代自助（self-help）以及古老智慧其实殊途同归，它们都是通向同一种神经机制的不同路径。习惯本质上是大脑神经系统在运行一种低耗能的“默认程序”。以整理房间为例，神经系统极度遵循经济原则，倾向于以最小的能量消耗完成任务。若想打破原有的行为流畅度（fluency），一种受神经科学支持的方法是进行“叙事干预”：坐下来写满一整页，详述自己是一个多么井井有条、善于收拾的人。即便写的时候深知这与事实不符，但这种主动书写的过程打破了原有的自动化思维模式。
很多人常用的习惯干预技巧往往迅速失效，比如在手腕上套橡皮筋弹自己，或者在镜子上贴便签。研究表明便签纸通常只在第一天起作用，随后就会被大脑彻底视而不见。其原因在于大脑只对“新异且具有显著性”（salience）的刺激发生改变；一旦刺激不再新颖，神经系统就不会为此分配资源。改变任何行为都需要调动注意力，而“注意力是极其昂贵的高级能量资产”（attention is expensive）。因此，重塑习惯的关键不仅在于恐惧机制的驱动，更在于主动提供相反维度的叙事，迫使大脑脱离低能耗的自动化滑行状态。
- 神经系统极度节能，改变任何既定习惯都需要耗费高昂的注意力和神经代谢能量。
- 物理提醒（如镜子上的便签）失效迅速，核心在于缺乏持久的神经显著性（salience）。
- 通过反向书写重塑自我故事，能在行为触发瞬间制造停顿，打断固有的神经默认通路。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 习惯重塑与神经注意力模型
accDescr: 展示自动化旧习惯如何通过新异性与叙事干预转变为有意识的新行为模式
subgraph DefaultMode ["低能耗自动化通路"]
OldHabit["旧习惯模式<br/>(默认低耗能状态)"] --> PassiveCues["常规提醒失效<br/>(便签/皮筋失去显著性)"]
end
subgraph Disruption ["神经认知干预"]
OppositeNarrative["反向叙事/书面重构<br/>(打破思维惯性)"]
HighSalience["输入新异刺激<br/>(强迫注意力介入)"]
end
subgraph Realignment ["行为重塑"]
EnergyCost["高昂注意能量消耗<br/>(Attention is expensive)"]
NewDefault["建立新的神经通路"]
end
PassiveCues -.-> OppositeNarrative
OppositeNarrative --> HighSalience
HighSalience --> EnergyCost
EnergyCost --> NewDefault
```
---
### [59:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3546s) 注意力之战：从“消费者”转变为“创造者”
在日常生活中，注意力的投向决定了个体的成长上限。当斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）打趣提到自己现在雇了助理和保洁人员来打理混乱的个人空间时，安德鲁·休伯曼指出，如果一个人不够自律，现实的选择要么是立刻着手改变，要么是取得足够世俗的成功来外包杂务。然而更底层的课题是：每个人每天都必须审视自己的“注意力神经地皮”（neural real estate）到底该投资在何处。
我们正身处一场争夺注意力的战争中。每天早晨醒来，摆在面前的只有两条路：成为“消费者”还是“创造者”。如果一睁眼就伸手去拿智能手机，大脑在瞬间就沦为了被动的信息消费者；如果选择翻开日记本沉思书写，身份就转变为主动的创造者。休伯曼给所有渴望在任何领域取得成功的人提出了一条核心戒律：在离开聚光灯和广播平台的地方扎实生活与创作，然后再将成果带到平台上展示——“把你的真实生活带去 Instagram，但务必高度警惕把 Instagram 侵入到你的真实生活里”。每一次拿起手机拨打电话，都需要在脑海中拉响警报：这通电话是在实质性地向前推进目标，还是仅仅在被动挥霍宝贵的注意力？
- 晨间决策定势：晨起接触手机直接将大脑锚定为“信息消费者”，翻开纸笔日记则激活“信息创造者”。
- 平台交互准则：在无干扰的现实深度工作中积累输出，再将结果呈现于社交平台，而非本末倒置。
- 神经资源分配：日常应持续审查每一项细小行为（包括被动接打电话）是否在消耗神经带宽。
---
### [01:00:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3644s) “显化”与视觉化背后的神经科学：恐惧设定与阶段性迭代
关于“显化”（manifestation）和“视觉化”（visualization）是否真有科学依据的争论，神经科学给出了肯定的答案，但其实际运作机制往往与流行文化鼓吹的轻松幻想截然相反。纽约大学（NYU）研究员艾米丽·巴尔切蒂斯（Emily Balcetis）的研究揭示了一个令人不适却极其有效的反向工具——“恐惧设定”（fear setting）。在确立目标或培养习惯时，拿出大约 5 分钟专门想象如果未能达成目标将会发生的种种可怕后果。尽管没有人喜欢这种心理体验，但从大脑神经回路重塑的生物学机制来看，恐惧与危机感所带来的驱动力往往比单纯的美好愿景高效得多。
与此同时，正向视觉化依然不可或缺，因为人脑极难实现一个它根本无法想象的概念。然而视觉化目标常常陷入一个误区：人们以为必须看清最终的终局产物，但许多开创性工作在起点时是完全未知的。正如知名音乐制作人里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）在探讨创造力时所强调的，核心在于感知某个想法带来的“能量牵引”（energetic pull），并不带自我批判和预设评判地去探索它。伟大的音乐、诗歌、科学发现乃至商业构建，都不是一蹴而就的终局投射，而是在以“天”为周期的维度上反复演进迭代（iterations）。大学教育之所以相对简单，是因为终点清晰可见——毕业就能拿到学位证书；而在真实世界的旷野中，目标往往是神秘且需要动态修正的。
- 恐惧设定（Fear Setting）：利用 5 分钟具象化未达目标的灾难性后果，是利用神经系统避险本能的强力行动杠杆。
- 阶段性迭代：非标准化领域的成就依赖每日级别的微调与迭代，无法预先凭空构想出完整的最终成品。
- 创作机制：依照里克·鲁宾的经验，感知创意的内在驱动并剥离对外界评价的预判，是启动高阶创造力的前提。
---
### [01:03:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3795s) 调控身心状态与目标分享的陷阱：纯粹热爱 vs. 竞争驱动
除了视觉化，更高级的神经调控技能是学会在进入工作前调整自身的身心状态（brain and body state）。休伯曼分享了自己的工作例程：当他在撰写书籍的附加章节时，若没有处于极度专注的状态，他会闭上眼睛进行两到三分钟的呼吸冥想。他给自己的心理暗示非常直白：“如果我连两三分钟的呼吸都无法专注，那我凭什么能集中精力写上两三个小时？”
在追逐目标的过程中，向他人宣扬目标还潜藏着巨大的神经奖赏陷阱。加利福尼亚大学旧金山分校（UCSF）的一位心脏病学专家曾告诫休伯曼：切忌随意告诉周围支持你的人你要写书或做播客。因为支持者往往会立刻报以热烈的赞美与认同（“太棒了，你绝对应该做这件事”），这会让人在尚未付诸行动时就提前预支了社交奖赏和多巴胺快感，从而丧失了后续真正落地的行动力。相反，当人们遭遇“你绝不可能成功”的否定时，反而经常能激发巨大的逆反抗争力量，咬牙把事情做成。
休伯曼与里克·鲁宾曾就此展开争论：依靠证明他人错误的负面能量来驱动行动，是否最终会损害创造物的品质？那种带着“你瞧好了、给我走着瞧”的较劲与对抗，与出于纯粹的热爱显然截然不同。休伯曼回忆起自己童年时期对水族箱和鱼类的痴迷，那种状态用“纯粹的愉悦”（pure delight）来形容最为贴切——无需任何外力，只因为喜欢就渴望疯狂探索并分享。彼得·蒂尔（Peter Thiel）在《从 0 到 1》（*Zero to One*）中曾将竞争定义为“反创造力”的，因为在竞争中，个体的创造方向被迫随着打败对手的需求而发生扭曲变形。然而在残酷的现实世界中，单靠浪漫的热爱往往不够，最强有力的执行往往是两者的交织：既需要能调动危机感与竞争意识的刚性锋芒，也需要对事业本身保留最赤诚的纯粹愉悦。
- 状态预热：在高强度脑力劳动前进行 2-3 分钟呼吸锚定，建立注意力的神经基调。
- 目标保密原则：过早向友人倾诉目标会提前触发积极社交反馈，透支本应用于行动的多巴胺动力。
- 双轮驱动模型：长久卓绝的成就既需要“竞争与危机感”提供对抗阻力的冲劲，又需要“纯粹的热爱与愉悦”（delight in craft）守护创作的本质与灵魂。
### [01:05:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3953s) 竞争的双刃剑：科研内卷与播客共赢
在探讨成长与克服障碍的心理机制时，Andrew Huberman 对比了科学界与播客界两种截然不同的生态。在他长期身处的科研领域中，竞争处于一种近乎残酷的高度白热化状态（hyper-competitive）。当两个实验室在攻克相似的课题时，研究人员时刻处于焦虑中：一旦对手抢先发表，另一方可能就无法发表，或者无法投中高影响力的顶级期刊，而学术界的工作岗位直接与这些顶刊论文挂钩。Huberman 设想了一个理想国（dream world）——如果有无限的科研资金，科学家们不必为了申请经费（grants）或抢发论文而死斗，整个人类的科研进度反而会快得多。
相比之下，播客界展现出令人惊喜的同侪情谊（collegiality）与协作文化。在播客领域，如果不同的主持人都邀请了同一位嘉宾，并不会导致零和博弈，反而会因为算法推荐的互相借势而把整体曝光度托得更高。尽管在市场和许多领域中，竞争确实能刺激产出，但 Huberman 强调，**纯粹源于热爱、对技艺的沉醉以及创造力，才是走得长远的根本**。然而在现实中，多数追求都需要兼备二者：如同当年在课堂上，他深爱所学的内容，但看着身旁极其聪明的同学，即便私下一起备考，到了考场上也誓要争夺正态分布曲线顶峰的最高分（top mark）。适度的竞争能激发最好的状态，但在纯粹的个人创造力探索上，竞争所扮演的角色截然不同：
> "Competition can bring out more energy, but not more creativity."（竞争能激发更多能量，但带不来更多创造力。）
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 竞争对创造性工作的影响路径
accDescr: 对比竞争带来的能量提升在不同专注度下的积极与消极结果
subgraph Input["外部竞争刺激"]
C["产生竞争态势"] --> E["释放额外能量 (Energy)"]
end
subgraph Paths["发展路径选择"]
E --> D["分心模式 (Distraction)<br/>盲目跟风竞品动作"]
E --> F["第一性原理 (Vision)<br/>加速自身愿景落地"]
end
subgraph Outcome["最终结果"]
D --> Fail["迷失方向 / 产生破坏性后果"]
F --> Win["提升产出 / 构筑独特壁垒"]
end
```
### [01:08:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4086s) 专注愿景还是盲目跟风：商业与创作中的“能量”真相
针对 Huberman 关于“竞争带来能量而非创造力”的观点，Steven Bartlett 从商业角度做了关键补充：竞争带来的新增能量是蜜糖也是毒药，核心取决于**你是否任由这股能量使自己分心（distract）**。以科技巨头 Apple 为例，当乔布斯团队坚持基于第一性原理打造没有物理键盘、没有手写笔的触屏 iPhone 时，如果他们因为看到竞争对手三星的动向而打乱自身阵脚、盲从对方的产品路线，这种竞争就会演变成毁灭性的分心；但如果看到三星的动作后，苹果选择加快研发节奏、加大对自身愿景的投入，竞争就是有益的催化剂。
这种逻辑同样适用于内容创作者。Steven 坦言自己会观察并借鉴 Huberman 的播客，但他清楚自己成不了 Andrew Huberman，也无法成为 Joe Rogan 或 Lex Fridman；Huberman 随即附和，表示自己也绝不可能成为 Steven、Joe 或 Lex。包括 Chris Williamson 在内，每个人都有无法复制的独特风格。Huberman 回忆起年轻时在滑板圈的经历，以及从音乐行业大佬 Rick Rubin 那里得到的洞察：任何具有原创性的创造，本质上都是创作者将自身独一无二的人生轨迹、神经回路与精力投入其中。
从神经生物学的角度来解构所谓的“能量”（energy），其底层生理机制正是由儿茶酚胺系统（catecholamines）构成的混合鸡尾酒：
- **多巴胺（Dopamine）**：现代神经生物学已明确，多巴胺的核心机制是**驱动寻找奖赏的动机（motivation to seek rewards）**，而非仅仅代表获得奖赏后的愉悦感（pleasure）。
- **去甲肾上腺素（Norepinephrine）**与**肾上腺素（Epinephrine）**：共同调动大脑进入高度专注与行动戒备模式。
- **乙酰胆碱（Acetylcholine）与神经可塑性**：协同辅助注意力的精确聚焦与网络重塑。
数万年以来，哺乳动物与人类在寻找配偶、搜寻食物、建造庇护所直至创造现代科技社会时，驱动目标探索的都是这同一套神经递质体系。Huberman 用“身体重心前倾”（forward center of mass）来具象化这种探索循环：我们在脑海中构思、探测、碰壁后调头、发现新的探索线索，每当取得微小进展时，儿茶酚胺便会再次涌动，推动我们继续前进。
### [01:11:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4294s) 倦怠机制与多巴胺造浪池模型
当“前倾探索”的状态持续过久而没有恢复时，就会引发精神与生理的全面耗竭——即所谓的**职业倦怠（burnout）**。Huberman 指出，多巴胺等儿茶酚胺并非取之不尽的无限资源，而是一个具有特定储量的能量库（reservoir），过度挥霍就会面临枯竭。
为了维持长久的行动力，神经系统需要定期的深度修复。除了每24小时必需的夜间睡眠和冥想，Huberman 强烈推崇**非睡眠深度休息（NSDR, Non-Sleep Deep Rest）**。这一技术源于传承数千年的“瑜伽仰卧放松术”（Yoga Nidra），通过身体扫描、深层放松以及延长呼气，引导神经系统进入类似浅睡的超放松状态。一项极具说服力的脑科学研究证实：
- 仅需短暂进行一次 NSDR，大脑基底核（basal ganglia，负责启动行动与抑制行动的核心区域）中的多巴胺基准线水平（baseline level）**可大幅提升约 60%**。
在解释神经系统如何耗竭时，Huberman 引用了内分泌与公共卫生专家 Kyle Gillette 博士提出的“**造浪池模型**”（Wave Pool Analogy）：
- **多巴胺库如同一个波浪池**：池内的储备水体代表可用的多巴胺基线。当人保持规律的探索与追求时，池中泛起适度波纹。
- **超级刺激引发巨浪外溢**：当个体陷入极度强烈的“重心前倾”或滥用成瘾药物（如可卡因、安非他命等兴奋剂）时，多巴胺剧烈激增形成海啸般的巨浪。巨浪冲出造浪池边缘，导致蓄水池的总水量（多巴胺基线）急剧下降。
- **基线跌落与耐受加深**：暴增之后，多巴胺水平会直接跌破原有的基线，使人陷入“多巴胺低谷”。在此时，原本能带来满足感的事物彻底失效，大脑需要调动数倍的能量才能勉强获得同等的奖赏反馈。
正如 Huberman 的斯坦福大学同事、《多巴胺国度》（*Dopamine Nation*）作者 Anna Lembke 博士所阐述的，多巴胺机制就像一个痛苦与快乐的跷跷板——追求极致暴增的峰值，必然会迎来漫长而沉重的下坠。
### [01:14:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4478s) 兴奋剂叠加与多巴胺低谷：为何过度亢奋必导致衰竭
以可卡因吸食者为例，处在高浓度多巴胺状态下的人往往大脑飞转，满脑子都是“宏大想法”和“下一步干什么”，他们绝不会选择停下来放松；即便一秒钟冒出一万个念头且大部分毫无价值，其身体与意识也始终处于一种极度向前倾斜的“重心前移”（forward center of mass）驱动状态。然而，一旦药效消退，多巴胺水平便会直线下跌，跌破原本的基础线（baseline），让人陷入严重的抑郁与低落。这种生理机制不仅存在于毒品滥用中，在现代高强度工作和过度依赖补剂的人群身上同样普遍。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 多巴胺与去甲肾上腺素的峰谷循环
accDescr: 展示过度刺激导致多巴胺冲顶并随后跌破基线陷入低谷的动态过程
subgraph Stimulation["过度刺激与叠加态"]
A["高强度刺激 / 促兴奋药物<br/>(兴奋剂、重度训练、工作狂)"] --> B["儿茶酚胺系统爆发<br/>(多巴胺 + 肾上腺素 + 去甲肾上腺素)"]
B --> C["重心前移 (Forward Center of Mass)<br/>极度兴奋、动机过载、效率高峰"]
end
subgraph Crash["代偿性崩溃"]
C --> D["神经递质衰竭<br/>(冲顶幅度越大，低谷越深)"]
D --> E["跌破基础线 (Trough Below Baseline)<br/>午后昏睡、极度倦怠、认知瘫痪"]
end
subgraph Trap["恶性循环 vs 恢复机制"]
E -->|错误应对: 追求新刺激| A
E -->|正确应对: 禁欲与等待 30-60 天| F["恢复神经稳态 (Baseline Restored)"]
end
```
许多人为了追求极致表现，不仅在训练前摄入高刺激性的预锻炼粉（pre-workout），还要灌下一杯浓缩咖啡、配合强节奏音乐去冲击极限腿部训练。虽然这种状态短时间内令人陶醉，但如果一周七天频繁叠加这些刺激儿茶酚胺释放的物质（肾上腺素、去甲肾上腺素和多巴胺），神经系统就会被过度透支。到了下午，很多人会感到精力彻底报废、完全无法进行任何深度认知工作，这正是多巴胺跌落至基线之下的代偿反应。要维持长期的追求能力，明智之举是在平日里主动“松开一点油门”，保持警觉且平静的状态。
- **良性压力的界限**：短期压力能提升免疫力、强化聚焦并促进学习；只要还能对他人保持友善、且夜间能睡好觉，适度压力是有益的。
- **最佳心理状态**：并非狂热躁动，而是“警觉且平静”（alert and calm）。
- **过度叠加的副作用**：在旅行、目标、工作、健身等各个领域盲目叠加刺激，最终会导致回归日常生活时极度无聊与抑郁，对微弱的奖赏失去感知力。
---
### [01:17:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4637s) 安娜·伦布克法则：禁欲期如何重置被摧毁的多巴胺回路
正如精神科医生安娜·伦布克（Anna Lembke）在《多巴胺国度》（*Dopamine Nation*）中所指出的，任何将刺激推向极致的行为，随之而来的必然是一个低于基线的多巴胺低谷。这个低谷的深度和持续时间，并不取决于高潮持续了多久，而是与多巴胺飙升的“绝对高度”成正比。处于低谷期的人往往会出于本能再次寻找更强的刺激来试图摆脱痛苦，但这种饮鸩止渴的方式只会将神经回路越拖越深，导致刺激耐受不断上升。
要彻底打破这种成瘾与强迫行为，唯一的解药是“主动等待”并彻底戒除高强度刺激。神经科学研究表明，大约 **30 到 60 天的禁欲期（abstinence）** 足以让失衡的多巴胺受体和神经回路重置恢复到基线水平。安德鲁·胡伯曼经常收到来自科技圈和金融界精英的求助，他们靠阿得拉（Adderall）等中枢神经兴奋剂长期维持高压工作，最终不可避免地面临心理崩盘与倦怠（burnout）。除了少数存在器质性注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）的临床患者外，绝大多数人的枯竭都是自我透支造成的，他们真正需要的是静下心来度过最初一两周的低迷期，从散步、养狗或日常小事中重新寻找细微的愉悦感。
---
### [01:20:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4813s) 连续血糖仪类比：动态系统的变动稳态与身体控制
斯蒂芬·巴特利特在此处提出了一个生动的类比：多巴胺的峰谷机制与他佩戴连续血糖监测仪（CGM）时看到的血糖波动如出一辙——当大剂量摄入糖分导致血糖剧烈冲顶后，胰岛素代偿会导致血糖断崖式跌破基础线，而正是在这个极度低谷期，身体会爆发最强烈的进食冲动。安德鲁·胡伯曼高度认同这一观察，并指出神经系统并非维持机械的静态平衡（homeostasis），而是通过动态的变动稳态（allostasis）来应对外部环境的变化。
| 生理状态（Navy SEAL 框架） | 身体姿态与心智表征 | 神经系统表现与适应情境 |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **重心后移 (Back on your heels)** | 防御退缩、被动承压、感到不堪重负 | 交感神经失控过载，处于耗竭边缘 |
| **双脚踏实 (Flat-footed)** | 镇定沉着、进退有度、情绪受控 | 动态平衡，能够有效调节刺激与压力 |
| **重心前移 (Forward center of mass)** | 全力冲刺、高度驱动、追求目标 | 儿茶酚胺系统高度活跃，适于攻坚但不可持久 |
这种动态调节机制同样解释了为什么很多人“一放假就生病”：人在极端高压、奔波照顾他人或疯狂冲刺工作时，持续激发的压力反应实际上在短期内激活了免疫系统；而一旦任务结束、整个人彻底停下来休息，免疫系统的紧绷状态突然松懈，潜伏的病毒或细菌便会趁虚而入。因此，健康的生活节奏需要掌握“档位切换”的艺术。通过非睡眠深度休息（NSDR）以及延长呼气的呼吸调节法，人们无需花费成本即可主动激活副交感神经，学会平稳地在清醒战斗与深度睡眠之间自由切换。
### [01:23:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=4981s) 控制状态转换：从激进前倾到彻底放松
Andrew Huberman 详细解释了自主神经系统的切换技巧。通过长时间的呼气（long exhales），人可以激活副交感神经系统的“休息与消化”（rest and digest）功能。虽然初次尝试未必能立竿见影，但随着反复练习，这会成为一种极其有效的自主调节工具，帮助我们将身体状态从“重心前倾”（forward center of mass，即高度警觉和专注）切换为“脚跟落地”乃至“彻底向后躺平”（back on your heels），从而自然进入睡眠。同样，早晨醒来时，许多人会感到精力耗尽，但要重新进入重心前倾的状态，并不应该过度依赖大剂量的咖啡因、刺激物、震耳欲聋的音乐或惊悚的突发邮件。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 自主神经状态转换循环
accDescr: 展示从高度专注的前倾状态，经由降档平复，到达放松平稳状态，再自然唤醒的闭环。
subgraph 激活状态
A["重心前倾 (Forward Center of Mass)<br/>高度警觉 / 专注投入"]
end
subgraph 转换与修复
B["生理降档 (Downshift)<br/>长呼气 / NSDR / 小憩"]
C["重心后移 (Back on Heels)<br/>休息与消化 / 恢复性睡眠"]
end
A -->|"刻意调节"| B
B -->|"神经平复"| C
C -->|"自然唤醒 / 温和刺激"| A
```
Huberman 强调，任何渴望在学术、商业或创意等领域取得长期成就并维持漫长职业生涯的人，都必须掌握对这些“状态转换”（transition states）的控制力。要做到这种控制，首要的是对自己的生理状态保持觉察。现实中个体的能量差异极大：有些人天生精力充沛，能以极限负荷完成每次健身训练，冲完澡后在更衣室谈笑风生，接着立刻投入下一件事；而另一些人（包括 Huberman 自己）如果在早晨全力以赴投入，到了下午就会感到精力透支。因此，他需要 10 到 20 分钟的非睡眠深度休息（NSDR）、打个短盹，或者做几次平静的深长呼气，再配合适度摄入咖啡因来完成过渡。
### [01:24:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5082s) 刻意冷暴露与“越多越好”的迷思
谈到近年来备受推崇的冷水浴（ice baths / cold plunges）与冷水淋浴，Huberman 剖析了其背后的生理机制。刻意冷暴露最核心的作用在于刺激儿茶酚胺（catecholamines）——即多巴胺（dopamine）、肾上腺素（epinephrine）与去甲肾上腺素（norepinephrine）的长效释放。尽管学界围绕冷水浴是否真能显著提升新陈代谢仍有争议（目前证据显示影响并不大），但冷暴露能引发极显著且持久的儿茶酚胺飙升，从而让人在走出冷水后感到精力充沛、动机十足。冷水淋浴不仅不需要昂贵设备，甚至还能帮你省下热水账单，其核心价值就在于提供了一种迅速的“状态切换”（state shift）。
然而，许多人陷入了“越多越好”的极端误区。Huberman 分享了一个让人哭笑不得的朋友案例：这位极端的友人不知为何竟然光着身子在冰水池里泡了整整 30 分钟，结果大病一场且情绪跌入低谷。Huberman 直言：“那是因为你泡了 30 分钟！”在冷暴露上，正确的策略是追求“最小有效剂量”（minimal effective dose），甚至根本不需要看表：
- 只要在冷水中待到自己本能地“想要逃离”的临界点。
- 咬牙跨越这个心理阻力障碍（push through that barrier）几秒钟，然后立刻出来。
- 这个时间可能仅需 30 秒、1 分钟，最多 3 分钟，即可达成提升清醒度与动力的神经效果。
同样的道理也适用于力量训练。当前健身领域热衷于推崇超高训练容量（volume hypertrophy），但 Huberman 指出自己的恢复能力属于偏低类型（low recovery quotient）。对他而言，几个热身组加上两到三个高强度正式组便已足够；如果强行按照某些运动科学论文推荐的每个肌群每周 16 到 20 组进行训练，他整个人都会彻底虚脱。虽然科学数据值得信任，但个体必须尊重真实的自身体验，找到适合自己的负荷边界。
### [01:27:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5226s) 狗的品种隐喻：认识你自己与日度微调
为了生动说明人与人之间的神经与能量差异，极度喜爱犬类的 Huberman 用狗展（dog show）后台打了个绝妙的比方。如果你去狗展后台观察不同犬种，会发现：
- 某些犬种总是疯狂摇尾巴，双眼发光，时刻处于极度兴奋和警觉之中；
- 大丹犬（Great Danes）则安详沉静；
- 斗牛犬（bulldogs）则是“省力经济学”的化身——头几乎懒得离开地面，人走过去摸它们，它们顶多懒洋洋抬一下眼皮甚至眨眨眼，极具力量感却无比从容静止。
Huberman 自认绝不是斗牛犬那种天生沉静的类型，他有着较多自发性动作，需要大量身心刺激才能感到快乐与充实；正因如此，他必须刻意训练自己“降档”（downshift）的能力，依靠长呼气和 NSDR 进行日间重置。相反，那些天生像斗牛犬一样行动迟缓、能量常常不足以应对生活需求的人，则需要更多冷水淋浴或咖啡因来提振神经，但也需要留足休息时间。古希腊神谕所说的“认识你自己”，落实到生物学上就是要明白儿茶酚胺释放的规律：剧烈运动、冷暴露、咖啡因或 Adderall 这类兴奋药物能带来极大的精力和专注提升，但随后必然伴随着能量低谷（trough），必须学会坦然接纳并平复度过，而不是一味透支或走向成瘾性药物（Huberman 明确表示自己从未碰过可卡因或安非他命等滥用药物）。
对于那些天生代谢旺盛、精力过剩、自发动作不断的偏瘦人群，应该多做平复身心的减法，比如选择蒸桑拿而不是疯狂冷水浴，且桑拿温度不必非得激进地调到 220 华氏度（约 104 摄氏度）。最终，掌控生活的关键在于评估当天的身心状态——无论是疲惫还是充盈——并在每一天的尺度上思考：**今天我能做些什么，既能让自己的一天变得更好，也能让身边他人的生活变得更好？** 有时答案是多休息一会儿，有时是逼自己一把，有时则是给很久没联系的亲人打一通电话。把精力收束在一天可控的时间维度内，生活便能良性运转。
### [01:31:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5466s) 真实世界中的生物黑客与极端能量的化身：大卫·戈金斯
探讨生物黑客技术、补充剂以及训练法则时，必须将这些概念放回真实生活的语境中去审视。安德鲁·休伯曼指出，当今社会存在许多不同生命哲学的“化身式代表人物”，其中最具标志性的当属大卫·戈金斯（David Goggins）。两人结识于 2016 年左右，当时他们在硅谷的圣塔克拉拉与圣何塞一带共同为一家公司担任顾问。在休伯曼的印象中，戈金斯永远保持着“重心向前倾”（forward center of mass）的进击状态。经过一整天的高强度咨询工作后，到了傍晚，团队面临着是休息还是继续冲刺的选择，戈金斯毫不犹豫地选择“必须继续冲”。最令人震撼的是，在准备前往机场时，戈金斯所说的“去机场”并不是乘坐 Uber 或叫车，而是直接换上衣服，用双脚一路跑步去机场，并且真的做到了。
这种极致的内驱力引出了一个核心问题：人类究竟能否通过后天训练来提升多巴胺的基线水平？休伯曼坦言科学界尚未完全解开这个谜题。遗传和个体差异起到了极大作用，正如父母们常开的玩笑：“孩子刚生下来是什么脾气，一辈子大概就是什么脾气。”安静乖巧的婴儿长大后往往沉稳随和，而焦躁爱哭的婴儿成人后也常常情绪易激动。然而，如果一个人能够更加“经济高效”地运用自己体内的多巴胺与神经递质，调节与提升基线是完全可能的。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 个体能量与驱动模式对比
accDescr: 对比戈金斯、威林克、鲁宾与弗里德曼在面对挑战时的神经心理运作模式。
subgraph 意志力与行动型
A["大卫·戈金斯 (David Goggins)"] -->|"战胜内心负面独白|多重自我对抗"| A1["向前倾、极限突破"]
B["乔科·威林克 (Jocko Willink)"] -->|"不经思考直接执行|凌晨 4:30 训练"| B1["纪律至上、绝对执行"]
end
subgraph 沉浸与感悟型
C["里克·鲁宾 (Rick Rubin)"] -->|"靠近艺术与音乐|感受深刻却不被吸干"| C1["高度从容、敏锐直觉"]
D["莱克斯·弗里德曼 (Lex Fridman)"] -->|"直面世界阴暗与爱|深度共情与探究"| D1["思想无畏、全然沉浸"]
end
```
### [01:33:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5613s) 内向者与外向者：社交能量的耗竭与补充机制
在能量的消耗模式上，内向与外向的差异展现得淋漓尽致。主持人史蒂文·巴特利特提到，自己属于内向型性格，如果在一间屋子里进行两到三个小时的闲聊应酬，大脑就会彻底“烧焦”；而他的助理索菲（Sophie）却恰恰相反，社交对她来说宛如直接注入了高能燃料。休伯曼深有同感，并回忆起自己的一位前女友同样能在派对中汲取海量精力。科学上对内向与外向的解释，很大程度上取决于个体在社交互动中“充满并饱和”的速度有多快。安静的人也可以享受社交，他们可能更倾向于扮演观察者而非积极发言者，但无论如何，内向者在沉浸几个小时后就会感到能量耗尽，必须抽身离开。
与此同时，不同成功典范掌控心理状态的方式也大相径庭：
- **乔科·威林克（Jocko Willink）**：信奉“不要思考，直接行动”。在清晨 4:30 的闹钟响起时，根本不给大脑犹豫的空隙，既然到了时间就直接开始锻炼。
- **大卫·戈金斯（David Goggins）**：核心在于正面战胜脑海中那个试图将自己拉下深渊的负面声音，在大脑内部构建多重自我表征并实现意志的压制与超越。
- **里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）**：兼具极高能量与超常的平静。他拥有极度敏锐的审美直觉，能够紧密靠近艺术和音乐并产生深刻共鸣，却能在全身心体验的同时不被耗竭掏空。
- **莱克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman）**：以极度深邃的思考为特质，敢于直面人间的苦难、黑暗与真爱，哪怕顶着外界的非议，也始终像靠近烈火一样全然沉浸于深度思索之中。
### [01:36:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5808s) 多巴胺波峰与波谷的管理：寻找可持续的精力量表
休伯曼强调，提升多巴胺基线并不意味着必须彻底戒除所有的快乐巅峰。真正的关键在于合理调节神经递质的波峰（Peaks）与波谷（Troughs）。某些健康的狂欢并不会带来透支感。休伯曼举例提到英国摇滚乐队“詹姆斯”（James），称他们的现场是他看过的“最震撼的演出”。即使完全不摄入任何酒精或药物，一场演出带来的神经化学振奋感往往能持续两到三天，并且后续完全没有出现精力坍塌或抑郁的波谷，这证明健康的庆祝与艺术共鸣能为神经系统注入纯粹的生机。
反观科技和金融领域的许多成功人士，在实现财务自由、赚取巨额财富后，常常陷入严重的空虚与抑郁。休伯曼观察到，这些领域里最快乐的人往往是那些财富自由后依然选择继续工作的人。神经系统需要持续的目标驱动。在研究生时期，神经学家鲍勃·奈特（Bob Knight）曾送给休伯曼一句受益终生的建议：**认清自己在未来四到五年内能够持续承受的工作负荷**，因为人体的生理机能会随年龄变化，盲目蛮干只会适得其反。
- **休伯曼的个人负荷基准**：每天高强度专注工作 12 个小时，每周保持 5 到 6 天，但必须留出整整一天彻底休息（通常是周日进行运动与放松）。一旦强行提升至每天 15 小时或连续 7 天无休，身心就会彻底搁浅崩溃。
- **面对个体能量差异的策略**：每个人的精力上限各不相同。无论精力多寡，首先要如实接纳自己的生理现实。能量较低的人更需要通过保证高质量睡眠、健康饮食和规律作息等底层协议，来悉心维护和调动自身的神经递质储备。
### [01:39:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5992s) 掌控能量基准与高效能原则
每个人都有自己独特的能量基线状态。生活中有些人看起来性格温和平缓，似乎“能量较少”，但实际上他们只是在使用能量时更加高效克制，懂得把精力放在正确的地方，从不无端挥霍；而另一些人则能整天刷着 Instagram，热火朝天地在社交平台讨论时事，同时连听三期播客、写代码编程，甚至兼顾无数项繁杂事务，却依然精力充沛。每个人都必须找到最适合自己的节奏轨道。在日常生活中，人们通常可以在自己的常规基线上浮动 15% 到 20%，但如果偏离幅度过于极端，身体和精神状态就必然会陷入混乱与困境。
大众之所以对多巴胺抱有极大的好奇心，根源在于人们渴望在追求人生目标时变得更有成效、更高产，无论是创立企业还是制作播客。从多巴胺的运作机制来看，高效能的第一原则是在不同的专注与兴奋状态之间平稳过渡，并在高多巴胺消耗的活动之后，为身心留出足够的时间去补充神经递质储备。为了将这些神经生物学机制落地为一套具体可执行的操作手册，人们需要从晨间的一系列核心习惯入手，为全天的大脑蓄水池注满能量。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 晨间高能状态构建流程
accDescr: 展示从清晨醒来到完成晨间光照与补水的状态提升逻辑流程
subgraph SleepRest ["第一阶段：能量储备与恢复"]
A["评估睡眠状态 (6-8小时)"] --> B{"精力是否充沛?"}
B -- 否 / 未睡足 --> C["执行 10-20 分钟 NSDR / Yoga Nidra<br/>(补充基底核多巴胺，进入准睡眠态)"]
B -- 是 --> D["直接开启晨间流程"]
C --> D
end
subgraph MorningRoutine ["第二阶段：水合与生物节律重置"]
D --> E["补水 16-32 盎司<br/>(启动生理循环，提升活力)"]
E --> F["户外接触清晨阳光 (5-10分钟)<br/>(促发皮质醇健康峰值，锚定昼夜节律)"]
F --> G["摄入咖啡因 / 展开高能认知工作"]
end
```
### [01:41:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6063s) 充足睡眠与非睡眠深度休息（NSDR）
想要建立高效的多巴胺系统，首要基石是获得适合自身体质的睡眠。尽管许多睡眠专家主张人人都必须睡足 8 到 9 个小时，但这实际上是一种刻板印象，不同个体之间的睡眠需求差异显著，有的人需要 8 小时，有的人睡 6 小时就能达到巅峰状态。如果清晨醒来时因为各种原因无法继续入睡，或者不得不立刻起床却感觉昏沉、未得到充分休息，最立竿见影的补救手段是进行 10 到 20 分钟的“非睡眠深度休息”（Non-Sleep Deep Rest，简称 NSDR）或瑜伽睡眠（Yoga Nidra）。
NSDR 与传统的冥想有所不同。练习者通常平躺下来并闭上双眼（坐姿亦可），通过持续的延长呼气来调节自主神经系统。从呼吸性窦性心律失常（respiratory sinus arrhythmia）的生理机制来看，迷走神经与心脏搏动紧密相连：吸气时心率会轻微加快，而呼气时心率则会放缓。配合深长的呼气，练习者会进行系统的身体扫描，依次有意识地放松双脚、双腿、双手及全身各部位。此时大脑会进入一种介于清醒与睡眠之间的“准睡眠状态”。尽管练习指导语会提示尽量保持清醒，但即使不小心睡着也无妨。神经生物学研究表明，这种独特的极度放松状态能有效补充大脑基底核（basal ganglia）中的基准多巴胺水平，不仅能弥补部分缺失的睡眠，还能显著提升后续的学习效率，为心智和身体动作做好全面准备。
- **零成本练习资源**：YouTube 上有大量免费的引导音频，包括 Andrew Huberman 本人的 NSDR 录音，以及 Kelly Boys 和 Kamini Desai 录制的经典 Yoga Nidra 音频。
- **时间跨度选择**：NSDR 形式灵活，短至 10 分钟、20 分钟，长至 30 分钟乃至一小时的完整练习均可根据当日日程灵活安排。
- **科研动向**：Huberman 实验室正与著名睡眠学者马修·沃克（Matt Walker）的团队展开合作研究，旨在通过脑成像等手段精准揭示 NSDR 状态下大脑神经环路的活动机制。
### [01:44:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6290s) 晨间补水与晨光协议：设定昼夜节律与多巴胺基准
在完成休息与唤醒后，晨间的第一项生理补给应当是充足的水分。人体在经过整夜的呼吸和代谢后处于缺水状态，起床后摄入 16 到 32 盎司（约 470 至 950 毫升）的水能够对能量水平产生深远的提振作用。关于容器选择，使用玻璃或陶瓷器皿饮用过滤水是理想的方式，但不必陷入非理性的塑料焦虑，核心重点在于保证足量水合。紧随其后的是晨光照射与适度身体活动的结合，最好能在摄入晨间咖啡因之前完成这些步骤。
清晨醒来后尽快让明亮的自然光线进入眼睛，是重塑昼夜节律生物学的关键催化剂。光子射入视网膜会显著触发大脑和体内皮质醇的健康释放，这一脉冲式上升标志着生理唤醒的正式启动，不仅能瞬间拉升白天的情绪、专注度和清醒度，还会直接决定当晚入睡的深浅。即便是在多云阴沉的清晨（例如在英国常见的天气），或者身处朝向不佳的酒店阳台看不到日出地平线，室外的环境散射光强度依然远远高于室内最明亮的顶灯。如果遇到阴天或阳光受阻，只要走出室外面向天空停留数分钟，眼睛便能捕捉到足量的自然光能量；而如果醒来时天色尚完全未亮，则只能耐心等待太阳升起，没有捷径可走。
- **光照操作规范**：清晨走到户外，摘下太阳镜（普通光学近视镜或具有防紫外线涂层的隐形眼镜不影响效果），面朝东方或在户外阳台停留 5 到 10 分钟。
- **光照强度对比**：尽管市面上有针对季节性情绪失调（SAD）设计的 10,000 勒克斯特种灯具，但室外的自然环境光具有不可替代的广谱光子密度，远胜普通室内照明。
- **晨间行为排序**：起床后先去洗手间并完成 16-32 盎司的补水，随后直接出门接触日光并进行适量活动，之后再享受咖啡或茶饮，是优化全天神经递质基线的高效路径。
### [01:48:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6497s) 晨光暴露的生理机制与皮质醇调节
Andrew Huberman 深入解释了早晨晒太阳的本质与细节。许多人误以为必须亲眼看到地平线上升起的太阳轮廓才算数，但事实并非如此——我们需要的是来自太阳的光线，即光子能量（photon energy）。哪怕在阴天，或者视线并未正对着太阳升起的方位，漫射光依然存在。光子进入眼睛后，会激活位于眼底后方如“馅饼皮”（pie-crust-like）般薄层组织上的视网膜神经细胞，进而向大脑发送“该醒来了”的神经信号。
在英国或斯堪的纳维亚半岛严酷的寒冬，早晨乃至白天的天气可能极度阴暗浓重。Huberman 指出，这种极端情况下，人们必须退而求其次，在早晨和白天尽量补充强烈的明亮人造光。在清晨接触充足的光线（Light），核心作用在于拉高皮质醇（cortisol）的健康峰值并延长其维持时间。很多人谈“皮质醇”色变，认为它是有害的压力激素，但 Huberman 强调这是完全错误的认知：“皮质醇非常棒，你不可或缺。”皮质醇分泌不足或调节异常的人往往健康问题缠身；清晨出现一个高耸的皮质醇高峰，能够极大提升免疫力与全天的清醒度，支撑精力一直维持到傍晚，随后自然回落以利于入眠。
- **光照的本质**：接收来自太阳的光子能量，无需直视太阳圆盘本身。
- **阴天与高纬度对策**：多云天气依然有效；极端阴暗的冬日需借助高照度人造光源。
- **清晨皮质醇高峰**：健康的早晨皮质醇峰值支撑一整天的精力和免疫力，并在晚间顺利下降。
---
### [01:49:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6582s) 轮班工作者的生物钟困境与应对策略
当主持人问及夜班和轮班工作者（shift workers）时，Huberman 肃然起敬地表示：“上帝保佑他们，我们日常生活和消耗的许多东西都离不开他们，我们必须心存感激。”然而在生理上，轮班人员长期处于极度受损的健康状态，饱受消化系统紊乱与情绪障碍的困扰。其中最糟糕的是“摆动轮班制”（swing shift），例如连续上 3 天白班紧接着上 3 天夜班，频繁颠倒彻底摧毁了昼夜节律。
Huberman 为轮班人群提出了几项具体的科学减害建议：
1. **固定的作息框架**：即便不得不上夜班（夜行状态是生物学上最不健康的生活模式），也要去跟主管协商，争取在同一个时间表上至少保持两周，避免频繁在白班与夜班之间来回切换。
2. **长波长红光照明**：在夜班工作时，避免刺眼的白色荧光灯，改用偏红、长波长的光源照明（red-shifted, long wavelength light）。这有助于抑制错误时间点爆发的异常皮质醇激增。
3. **保持进餐与运动规律**：进餐和锻炼时间的恒定能成为强大的外围授时因子。
4. **适应个人作息的“早晨”光照**：如果一个人被要求熬到凌晨 3:00 入睡并睡到上午 11:00，那么对他而言，上午 11:30 就是他的“清晨”，此时依然需要到室外接受光照来锁定节律。
对于正常的日行动物（diurnal schedule）而言，早起后的水分补充、阳光接触以及哪怕只有 5 分钟的简单运动（如跳绳、原地踏步、甩臂或散步），都能产生巨大的身心效益。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 轮班工作者的生物钟受损与缓解干预策略
accDescr: 展示轮班导致的节律被打乱，以及通过作息固定、长波长光源、规律饮食运动进行的缓解机制。
subgraph Problem["轮班对节律的破坏"]
A["摆动轮班制 / 昼夜频繁切换"] --> B["皮质醇在错误时段激增"]
B --> C["消化不良 / 情绪障碍 / 健康恶化"]
end
subgraph Protocols["科学减害干预措施"]
D["固定排班周期<br>(至少维持2周同一作息)"]
E["夜班环境改用长波红光<br>(避免高亮刺眼荧光灯)"]
F["唤醒后接受光照<br>(即便醒来已是上午11:30)"]
G["固定每日进餐与训练时间"]
end
Protocols -.->|"减轻生理紊乱"| Problem
```
---
### [01:51:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6698s) 运动规律性与饮食对大脑能量的支撑
关于运动时机，Huberman 澄清道，晨练很棒，但若早晨没时间，绝对不要因此放弃运动。“最核心的原则是在你能坚持的时间去练。”从长寿、健康寿命（healthspan）以及当下身心健康的角度看，无论男女，每周都应雷打不动地进行至少 2 至 3 次抗阻力量训练，并配合心血管有氧训练，以保障神经肌肉连接、脑健康和心血管功能。唯一需要注意的是晚间锻炼时，切勿摄入过量咖啡因或高刺激的预锻炼补剂（pre-workout），以免剥夺睡眠——睡眠是终极的修复机制与身心健康的基石。
谈到维持多巴胺系统平衡与全天充沛精力，饮食扮演着关键角色。Huberman 强调，不论实行纯素食、素食、杂食还是纯肉饮食，核心准则是摄入未经加工或极低加工的天然食物（minimally processed foods）。他在白天主要靠高质量蛋白质、富含纤维的蔬菜和适量水果来维持清晰的脑力。
当主持人好奇问起 Huberman 自己的“饮食软肋/恶习”（vice）是什么时，Huberman 笑着承认自己对“任何搭配融化帕玛森芝士（Parmesan）的碳水化合物”毫无抵抗力，例如薄底披萨（thin-crust pizza）或裹满帕玛森芝士的意面，如果旁边再有一杯无糖可乐（Diet Coke），他就会一口接一口狂吃，极难察觉饱腹感上限。主持人也坦白自己是个甜食控，最爱胡萝卜蛋糕，且非常挑剔糖霜与蛋糕胚的比例必须恰到好处。
- **力量与有氧训练底线**：男女皆宜，每周至少 2-3 次抗阻训练结合有氧锻炼。
- **饮食基石**：全天摄入非加工或低加工食物，以高蛋白和纤维素维持脑力能量。
- **Huberman 的弱点**：薄底披萨、加足帕玛森芝士的意面及无糖可乐的组合。
---
### [01:53:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6815s) 多巴胺波谷与食物渴求的恶性循环
主持人提出疑问：在纵容自己吃了一块美味的胡萝卜蛋糕后，根据多巴胺的运作原理，接下来的几天是否会更容易陷入对蛋糕的渴求循环？因为多数人都有过戒糖 3 到 4 周后甜食瘾自然消退的体验。这是否意味着食物也像毒品一样具有成瘾性？
Huberman 分析指出，食物确实能引发极强的强迫性行为（compulsive behavior），某些人的确处于食物成瘾状态。在临床上，Huberman 将“成瘾”（addiction）定义为“能够为你带来快乐的事物范围发生渐进式狭窄”（a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure）。传统的成瘾定义则是指明知某项行为带来适应不良的恶果（maladaptive）却仍持续为之。偶尔吃几块胡萝卜蛋糕虽然会让人身体略感迟钝，但不会像赌博成瘾那样导致家破人亡或走上犯罪道路。
然而，甜食引发的“多巴胺过山车”效应与成瘾机制完全相同。斯坦福大学精神科医生 Anna Lembke 对此有极透彻的描述。Huberman 推荐巧克力爱好者做一个思维实验：
当你戒断巧克力一周后，咬下一小块心仪的巧克力，它在舌尖化开的瞬间确实美味绝伦；但敏锐的人会立刻注意到，大脑几乎在一瞬间从“品尝享受当下的巧克力”切换到了“渴望更多”（wanting more）。你脑子里想的全是：“我等会儿要再掰一块，哎呀旁边那块掉了一角，那我也得顺便吃掉。”
当半板巧克力下肚后，身体其实已经开始感到不适，但大脑却仍在催促你塞进更多。这正是因为多巴胺陷入了“多巴胺波谷”（dopamine trough）。同样的摄入量所带来的愉悦感迅速产生边际效应递减，大脑为了逃避落入波谷的不适感，会强迫机体去索取更多。要想让那块巧克力重新变得极致美味，唯一的途径不是继续吃，而是主动选择“克制与节制”（abstain）。
### [01:56:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7003s) 天然食物法则与大脑对味道和热量的神经重塑
经常有四五十岁、超重 30 到 60 磅（约 14 至 27 公斤）的朋友前来向 Andrew Huberman 寻求减重建议。尽管 Huberman 声明自己并非专业营养师，但他给出的减重方案极为直接且百分之百奏效：饮食完全限定为肉类、鱼类、鸡蛋、鸡肉、水果和蔬菜；饮品仅限水和咖啡因饮料，坚决不摄入任何液体热量。按照这个规则执行的人，无一例外快速减掉了多余体重并长期保持。他的好友兼同行 Layne Norton 博士会从能量代谢的角度指出，这是因为他们创造了热量缺口（caloric deficit）。Huberman 完全认同这一点，但他进一步提出：食用完全未经加工或极低加工的天然全食物，其核心机制在于重塑大脑对“味道”、“热量”与“微量/宏量营养素”之间的神经关联认知。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 全食物饮食重塑大脑味觉与热量关联的机制
accDescr: 展示从天然全食物摄入到大脑神经回路重塑，再到对超加工食品产生味觉排斥的闭环过程。
subgraph INTAKE ["饮食干预阶段"]
A["摄入天然未加工食物<br/>(肉类/鱼/蛋/禽肉/果蔬)"]
B["杜绝液体热量<br/>(仅饮用水与黑咖啡/茶)"]
end
subgraph BRAIN ["大脑感知与神经重塑"]
C["明确感知纯粹风味与质地<br/>(如12盎司肉眼牛排的鲜味)"]
D["建立热量与营养精确映射<br/>(氨基酸觅食假说 & 微量元素)"]
E["重置多巴胺反馈回路<br/>(消除高糖高脂带来的骤升骤降)"]
end
subgraph OUTCOME ["生理与行为结果"]
F["自然产生饱腹感<br/>(无需极端节食即可维持热量缺口)"]
G["味觉与心理偏好反转<br/>(对超加工食品/生日蛋糕产生本能反胃)"]
end
A --> C
B --> C
C --> D
D --> E
E --> F
E --> G
```
当一个人吃一块 12 盎司的肉眼牛排时，大脑在品味鲜美风味的同时，正在神经层面上建立牛排味道与蛋白质、脂肪、热量以及氨基酸供给之间的精准映射（符合营养学中的“氨基酸觅食假说”）；吃新鲜水果时，舌尖也是在直接体会天然纯粹的甘甜。这与吃潜艇堡、汉堡和芝士汉堡截然不同。去除了精制面包和意面后，大脑不再被复合添加物混淆。这并不意味着高品质面包或意面是“坏食物”——Huberman 自己作为维持体重的杂食者也很喜欢吃，但对于减重和重塑感知而言，剔除它们效果显著。
坚持吃纯天然全食物几个月后，这些朋友身上都会发生一个奇妙的转变：当去参加聚会并破例尝了一块给孩子们准备的生日蛋糕时，他们不再感到愉悦，反而觉得“甜得恶心”，甚至有人当场呕吐。他们原本对糖油混合物的强烈正向奖赏联结被彻底斩断，随后毫无心理负担地回归健康饮食，并惊喜地发现自己真正爱上了天然食物。大脑在营养价值与味觉偏好之间的神经回路完全可以通过饮食习惯完成重塑。
- Huberman 认为完全只吃肉的极端排除饮食（carnivore diet）并不健康，摄入来自其他来源的纤维十分必要；尽管他打趣说 Paul Saladino 可能会拿着鸡腿来找他理论，而 Jordan Peterson 也坚持全肉饮食，但他尊重个体差异，自己依然保持均衡的杂食生活。
- 超加工食品、糖果、饼干和薯片只会驱动“想要更多”的多巴胺从峰值骤跌至低谷的渴望循环，人们并不是真的“享受”它们，而只是在神经上觉得自己“离不开”它们。
- Huberman 建议任何感觉自己食物成瘾的人不要采取极端节食（crash diet），只需保证足够热量摄入的前提下，坚持吃两周高品质、未加工的全食物，哪怕开头几天极其痛苦，两周后渴望便会消退，精力与体能状态也将焕然一新。
---
### [02:01:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7273s) 饮食干预对动力、运动与睡眠的多米诺骨牌效应
主持人分享了自己的亲身体验：每次飞往洛杉矶录制播客两到四周，整个团队几乎全天都吃同样的固定餐食——大份蔬菜沙拉搭配各种纯肉类。这种被动成形的“洛杉矶饮食干预”带来了惊人的连锁反应：不仅体脂率达到人生最佳状态，去健身房训练的内在动力大幅提升，晚上的睡眠质量显著改善，整个人的身心状态都变得神清气爽。仅仅一到两周斩断垃圾食品的饮食调整，就彻底重新构建了他对食物的感知，甚至让他对下一顿沙拉产生真正的食欲与期待。
Huberman 指出，这种现象在神经生物学上完全合理。天然食物吃得越多、不健康食品戒断得越彻底，健康食物在大脑奖赏中枢中就会变得越有吸引力。许多人从未体会过早晨充足日光照射、优质睡眠与营养饮食叠加在一起所带来的精力跃升，而一旦亲身体验过那种充沛的体能与清爽的思维，这种健康的生活状态本身就会成为一种良性的“神经上瘾”。
- 保持健康生活方式并不意味着走向机械极端的教条主义；Huberman 表示节假日自己也会尽情享用美味的派，只要日常保持充足的身体活动量，偶尔的放纵完全不会造成负担。
- 近期以司美格鲁肽（Ozempic）和替尔泊肽（Mounjaro）为代表的 GLP-1 受体激动剂风靡全球，从侧面印证了一个基本事实：肥胖的核心就是热量摄入相对于身体消耗严重过剩。
- 在美国，由于大部分人缺乏规律运动，日常步行极少，日均摄入热量却高达 3,500 大卡左右，导致绝大多数人一生都处于体重缓慢攀升的状态；其实只需调整饮食质量与增加微小的日常活动，就能以极低痛苦扭转这一局面。
---
### [02:03:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7414s) 营养节奏与晨间锻炼对全天能量水平的生理调节
在具体的日常进食与能量调控上，Huberman 分享了自己行之有效的个人模式：他通常实行轻断食，早上因为不觉得饿而不进食，并在清晨完成锻炼，直到上午 11 点或中午 12 点才吃第一餐。他的午餐以肉类、大份沙拉和少量的燕麦或米饭等淀粉类碳水为主，白天保持相对较低的碳水化合物摄入，以维持极高的清醒度与专注力。晚上 7 点到 8 点之间的晚餐，则会稍微增加淀粉类碳水、适度降低蛋白质比例，这种搭配有助于促进大脑合成血清素与褪黑素，从而带来极佳的睡眠深度。
对于运动时机对精力的影响，个体之间存在明显的生理节奏差异。例如前海豹突击队指挥官 Jocko Willink 每天凌晨 4:30 健身，全天都散发着惊人的能量。Huberman 自身也有类似体验：只要在上午 9 点前完成晨练，一整天的精力状态都会极其充沛；反之，若将训练推迟到上午中后段或接近中午，下午就会感到明显的困倦与嗜睡。
这种现象有着坚实的神经生物学基础。清晨人体核心体温（body temperature）正在自然攀升，这一升温过程伴随着警觉性神经递质与皮质醇的释放，推动大脑与身体从睡眠中苏醒。在清晨进行体育锻炼能够加速体温上升的步伐，促使神经系统迅速进入高度戒备、精力饱满的白昼状态；而到了下午，人体的核心体温通常达到一天的峰值并开始逐渐回落，如果在接近峰值的时间段过度消耗，随后的体温骤降与腺苷积累便更容易引发强烈的日间疲倦感。
### [02:04:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7498s) 体温节律、睡眠机制与生物钟的重塑
午饭后人们往往会感到困倦，这不仅是因为摄入了大量食物，更主要是因为人体的核心体温在午后早些时候达到了全天的峰值。人体如果想要进入睡眠状态，核心体温必须下降 1 到 3 华氏度。这正是为什么睡觉时将一只脚伸出被子、使用冷却床垫，或者保持室内环境凉爽能显著促进睡眠。不过理想的睡眠温控环境更加微妙：入睡时保持房间凉爽并盖上温暖的被毯，而在快到早晨时环境略微变暖，这有助于后半夜做更多生动的快速眼动（REM）期梦境。
对于生物钟调节而言，早晨 8 点或 9 点之前进行锻炼能够加速体温上升，从而让人迅速清醒。在昼夜节律生物学中存在一个美妙的现象，称为“夹带”（Entrainment）。哪怕是一个极其讨厌早起的“夜猫子”，如果强迫自己在早晨 6 点起床并连续锻炼 3 天，到了第 4 天生物钟就会自然调整，让他在这个时间点清醒过来。位于大脑下丘脑的视交叉上核（SCN）是昼夜节律的主控钟，驱动清醒与睡眠的核心外部信号包括：眼部接收早晨阳光、身体活动、进食时间以及社交互动。只要早晨接触阳光、进行锻炼（甚至在日出前）、补充水分和咖啡因，并在早段进食，身体就会提前预期这些活动。即便自认为是夜猫子，生物钟也会逐渐前移，晚上 10 点或 11 点便会自然产生睡意，此时只需克制自己，把手机放到另一个房间去睡觉即可。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 昼夜节律重塑机制
accDescr: 视交叉上核接收的外部信号输入及其对生物钟夹带的调节过程
subgraph Inputs["视交叉上核 (SCN) 关键外部输入"]
L["早晨阳光照射 (眼睛接收)"]
E["早期身体活动 / 锻炼"]
F["进食时机与营养摄入"]
S["社交互动与环境交流"]
end
subgraph Mechanism["生理与体温响应"]
T["促进早晨核心体温上升"]
EN["生物钟节律夹带 (Entrainment)"]
end
subgraph Outcome["行为与睡眠转变"]
A["白天清醒度与专注力提升"]
D["晚间体温自然下降 1-3°F"]
Z["晚上 10:00-11:00 自然入睡"]
end
L --> T
E --> T
F --> EN
S --> EN
T --> EN
EN --> A
A --> D
D --> Z
```
### [02:07:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7628s) 睡眠类型、年龄变化与能量低谷的对冲策略
关于究竟是天生夜猫子还是不良生活习惯所致，人类的睡眠类型（Chronotypes）在很大程度上是由基因决定的，大致分为三类：早起型（晨型人）；典型型（晚上 10:30 到午夜入睡，早晨 6:00 到 8:00 起床）；以及夜猫子型（凌晨 1:00 或 2:00 入睡，上午 10:00 或 11:00 起床）。睡眠模式会随着年龄产生显著变化。在不同的人生阶段（通常以 5 年为一个周期），最佳作息规律都不尽相同：婴儿几乎整天睡觉；青少年由于生长发育需要大量睡眠，例如 17 岁的高中生在暑假半夜入睡、中午起床喝杯水后继续睡一小时是极其正常的生理需求；到了三四十岁，作息又会改变，而有了孩子后日程往往会被孩子强行重塑。
Andrew Huberman 提到自己的节律比较特殊：大脑和身体效率最高的黄金时间是早晨 6:00 到中午之间；下午大脑容易迟钝，几乎无法进行高强度脑力工作；而到了晚上 6:00 到午夜，思维又会重新变得敏锐。在录制播客的当天下午，为了对抗午后低谷，他在早晨 6:45 起床处理工作后，在前往工作室的路上进行了约 10 分钟的“非睡眠深度休息”（NSDR），随后补充水分与适量咖啡因，迅速摆脱了昏沉，恢复了完全的清醒。每个人都应该根据自己的生命阶段和日常能量峰值来规划日程，像传奇音乐制作人 Rick Rubin 就会在早晨慢节奏过渡、在阳光下散步，而把最核心的深度专注工作安排在下午和晚上。
- **三类基因决定的睡眠型态**：早起型、常规型（22:30–24:00 入睡，6:00–8:00 起床）、晚睡型（1:00–2:00 入睡，10:00–11:00 起床）。
- **年龄与睡眠需求**：青少年的晚睡长眠是身体发育的自然规律，并非单纯的懒惰。
- **对冲午后低谷的手段**：结合短时间的 NSDR（非睡眠深度休息）、适度补水与咖啡因摄入，可迅速逆转精力低谷。
### [02:09:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7780s) 灵感捕捉与潜意识涌现的神经科学
对话主持人提到，自己最好的灵感往往在临睡前爆发，常常忍不住想打开电脑记录，并将灵感发给位于英国团队的员工（由于时差，对方清晨 7 点正好收到）。Andrew Huberman 强调，想要在生活和事业上取得成就，建立一个灵感捕捉系统（Mode of capture）至关重要。他随身携带一本笔记本，用来记录脑海中偶然闪现的碎片想法，并在周末或乘飞机时回看，筛选出那些具有持久黏性的深度概念。他最近甚至在笔记本中构思用绘本书的形式普及神经科学，并写下了自己在不同人生阶段所代入的不同动物意象。
从神经科学角度来看，人在入睡前、散步或洗澡时之所以会频频迸发绝妙灵感，是因为负责逻辑分析、长期规划和知识组织的前额叶皮层网络开始疲劳并逐渐放松。正如精神科专家 Paul Conti 博士在播客中所解释的，除了调节呼吸、心率和消化等维持生命的系统外，人类大脑的绝大部分计算活动都在进行“潜意识处理”。潜意识把童年经历、尚未察觉的未来计划以及白天的即时体验进行多角度的重新排列与重组，并在梦境中以时空扭曲的叙事和符号呈现出来。当人们处于半梦半醒或身心极度放松的状态（如散步或上厕所小便时），逻辑理性的审判机制下线，潜意识中的绝妙创意便如同间歇泉一般喷涌而出。
### [02:13:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=7981s) 激发创造力的两种反向神经状态：身体静止 vs. 身体运动
灵感的迸发往往发生在思维不经意放空的瞬间。Huberman 幽默地坦白，尤其是身处大自然徒步时，自己在树后小解时突然就会冒出绝妙的点子——因为此时大脑完全没有刻意思考任何事情。不仅是淋浴或跑步，对极具创造力的人群进行观察会发现，他们通常掌握了进入特定神经状态的练习方式。
Huberman 回忆起音乐制作人 Rick Rubin 的日常状态：Rick 经常双眼微闭、身体一动不动，旁人以为他在冥想或打瞌睡，但实际上他的大脑在那段时间极其活跃。这与斯坦福大学顶尖神经科学家、生物工程师兼精神科医生 Karl Deisseroth 的习惯不谋而合。Deisseroth 在每晚哄睡五个孩子后，会坐下来强迫自己“身体保持完全静止，同时逼迫大脑用完整的句子进行高度专注的思考”。爱因斯坦也曾习惯在散步途中突然驻足静止，让大脑在身体停滞的状态下持续深度运转。
科学与艺术史上许多超高效、极富创造力的人都有这种“身体彻底静止，大脑高速运转”的习惯；而另一种截然相反的状态则是“身体持续运动，大脑自由放空”。Huberman 谈到自己每周日都会坚持跑 60 到 90 分钟，不追求速度，大脑也不刻意去想任何课题，但各种灵感往往会在此时“从潜意识的泉眼喷涌而出”。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 促进创造力的两种神经状态与冥想机制
accDescr: 对比身体静止与身体运动两种激发创意的状态，并区分聚焦冥想与开放监控冥想对大脑认知能力的差异化影响。
subgraph MindBodyStates["身心状态对创造力的驱动"]
direction LR
S1["身体极度静止<br/>(Rick Rubin / Karl Deisseroth)"] -->|"主动且严密的构思"| C1["高阶思维与结构化灵感"]
S2["身体持续运动<br/>(长跑 / 散步)"] -->|"潜意识释放与自由放空"| C2["灵感突现与无拘联想"]
end
subgraph MeditationTypes["冥想分类与认知效果"]
direction LR
M1["专注冥想 (聚焦呼吸/眉心)"] -->|"Wendy Suzuki 实验证实"| R1["增强工作记忆<br/>降低系统压力"]
M2["开放监控冥想 (Open Monitoring)"] -->|"感知环境全景而不执着"| R2["显著提升发散思维与创造力"]
end
MindBodyStates -.->|"实践工具支撑"| MeditationTypes
```
- **专注冥想的益处**：纽约大学（NYU）Wendy Suzuki 实验室的研究证实，每天仅需 10 到 13 分钟将注意力持续拉回呼吸或眉心位置的专注冥想，即可有效提升工作记忆（Working Memory）并显著降低压力。
- **开放监控冥想（Open Monitoring Meditation）**：闭上眼睛后，不聚焦于呼吸，而是将感知开放给周围环境中的一切声响与细节，任由外界刺激流经感官。实验室数据表明，这种练习能够显著增强创造性解题能力与新概念合成能力。
- **灵感捕捉原则**：不要干等灵感降临；要配备记录工具（便签、手机备忘录或语音备忘录），结合静止造句思考、开放监控冥想或无任何音频干扰的“无聊”长距离跑跳，让大脑进入灵感状态。
---
### [02:17:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=8244s) 极端温度对多巴胺与生殖系统的深远影响
回顾了多巴胺管理框架中的睡眠、非睡眠深层休息（NSDR）、补水、运动、日光以及饮食之后，极端温度调节成为另一个强有力的神经调控工具。冷水淋浴或冷水浸泡（Cold Plunge）能够剧烈激发儿茶酚胺系统（包括多巴胺、肾上腺素和去甲肾上腺素），属于极为高效的“状态切换工具”。Huberman 本人每周至少进行一次桑拿与冷水浸泡交替训练。
针对主持人提出的“高温桑拿或热水澡是否会损伤精子”的疑虑，Huberman 进行了坦率的生理学剖析。极端高温虽然不会“烧熟（fry）”精子，但确实会大幅削弱精子的活力与有效计数：
- **精子生成周期（Spermatogenesis）**：精子的成熟生成周期约为 60 至 90 天。
- **温度敏感性与解剖学机制**：睾丸之所以悬挂在体外，且阴囊能够通过收缩或舒张调节距离，正是为了维持低于体温的适宜环境。
- **热暴露的削弱效应**：桑拿、热水浴缸（Hot Tub）或极热的盆浴会导致接下来 60 至 90 天内具有前向运动能力（Forward Motile）的活性精子数量断崖式下跌。同样，久坐、长时间开启汽车座椅加热或大腿过度肥胖摩擦聚热，也会对精子计数产生显著的负面影响。
- **保护方案与误区澄清**：有生育需求且仍想蒸桑拿的人士，可以在腹股沟处放置包裹隔热层的冰袋以保护睾丸温度；冷水浸泡使局部血管剧烈收缩，而在复温时带来大量血液回流。此外，Huberman 特别发出公共健康警告：**绝对不要将桑拿或热水澡当作避孕手段**，历史上有无数婴儿正是在这两种环境下依然成功受孕诞生的。
---
### [02:20:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=8459s) 赞助商插播：PerfectTed 天然能量饮料
主持人插播了本期节目的赞助品牌 PerfectTed。这款采用绿色包装的小型天然抹茶能量饮料在英国各大商超（如 Tesco 与 Waitrose）迅速走红，在短期内取得了近 10,000% 的爆发式增长。主持人解释自己之所以在录制长达数小时的高强度深度访谈时持续饮用 PerfectTed，是因为它能够带来平稳持久的专注力，彻底避免了传统不健康能量饮料带来的精力断崖式崩溃（Crash）。
### [02:21:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=8498s) 色情内容与多巴胺机制的生物学视角
随着社交媒体（尤其是 X 等平台）的普及，色情内容正变得前所未有地容易获取，甚至在没有主动搜寻的情况下也会直接推送到用户的屏幕前，这对处于身心发育关键期的年轻人构成了极大隐患。针对色情内容、多巴胺分泌以及整体社会危害之间的关联，Andrew Huberman 指出，虽然人们对限制个人表达与消费自由持有不同观点，但如果单纯抛开道德评判，从神经生物学与多巴胺系统的运行机制来审视，其底层规律是非常清晰的。
人类体验越强烈、刺激越深，多巴胺的释放峰值就越高。脑成像研究明确表明，安非他命或可卡因等成瘾药物带来的多巴胺峰值激增，远远超过咖啡因等普通温和刺激。在色情领域同样如此：性活动本身，尤其是对性活动的“预期”，会显著推高多巴胺水平。然而，大量现代色情内容往往高度极端化，包含多人、非传统动力学等超常刺激（hyperstimulatory），这与所谓的“软色情”或温和体验存在本质差异。多巴胺作为驱动动机、奖赏与探索行为的“通用神经货币”，并不会区分配偶、食物还是色情画面，它所遵循的仅仅是浓度与持续时间的物理规则。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 色情刺激与多巴胺耐受循环
accDescr: 展示高强度色情刺激导致多巴胺峰值降低、谷值加深，从而产生耐受性的恶性循环过程。
subgraph Stimulation["极端高刺激暴露"]
A["观看高强度/极端色情内容"] --> B["多巴胺短期产生超常暴增峰值"]
end
subgraph Neuroadaptation["神经适应与耐受"]
B --> C["持续暴露导致受体下调"]
C --> D["多巴胺峰值逐步萎缩降低"]
D --> E["谷底（Trough）加深且持续时间拉长"]
end
subgraph Escalation["动机脱敏与行为升级"]
E --> F["原内容无法诱发性唤起"]
F --> G["寻求更极端、更高多巴胺刺激"]
G --> A
end
```
如果个体频繁消费高强度的色情内容，神经系统会产生典型的适应与耐受：
- 原本高耸的多巴胺峰值会越来越低，随之而来的回落低谷（trough）则会变得更深、持续时间更长。
- 处于多巴胺深谷中的个体会体验到动力匮乏，不得不去寻找题材更加极端、刺激更剧烈的内容，仅仅为了勉强将多巴胺拉回到初始基线。
- 曾经令人高度兴奋的画面逐渐变得索然无味，形成无法被常规刺激唤起的耐受状态。
---
### [02:25:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=8736s) 催乳素、不应期与柯立芝效应
在探讨观看色情内容时的自慰与高潮行为时，Huberman 强调这涉及高度个性化的个人价值观，他不做任何道德说教，但从生物学层面看，高潮是一个由多巴胺驱动的高峰事件。高潮过后，大脑中一种名为**催乳素（Prolactin）**的分子会迅速激增。催乳素在很大程度上决定了男性的“不应期”（Refractory Period）——在此期间男性无法再次勃起或达到高潮；女性的生理机制由泌尿外科与性医学专家（如 Rena Malik 博士）探讨得更为深入，虽然理论上男女都有实现多次高潮的生理潜质，但这种现象在女性中更为普遍。
多巴胺与催乳素在大脑中呈现典型的“跷跷板”对抗关系：高强度的刺激大幅拉升多巴胺，而高潮后催乳素的飙升则会抑制多巴胺，诱发一种缺乏动机（amotivated）、平息且昏昏沉沉的状态。从演化生物学角度来看，这种机制防止了动物无休止地交配耗尽体能。不应期的长短因物种、年龄和个体差异而大不相同，但它并非绝对不可打破——神经内分泌学中著名的**“柯立芝效应”（Coolidge Effect）**揭示了多巴胺对抗不应期的独特机制。
关于柯立芝效应的渊源，流传着一个真实的历史逸事：美国总统卡尔文·柯立芝（Calvin Coolidge）与夫人参观一家养鸡场。夫人在参观鸡舍时，讲解员特意指着一只公鸡说：“这只公鸡每天交配超过300次，简直令人惊叹。”柯立芝夫人听后印象深刻，转头对总统打趣说：“你听到了吗？每天300次！”总统停顿片刻反问讲解员：“请问，是同一只母鸡，还是不同的母鸡？”讲解员回答：“每次都是不同的母鸡。”
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 柯立芝效应的神经机制
accDescr: 展示引入新伴侣如何通过新奇性激活多巴胺，从而绕过催乳素并缩短不应期。
subgraph StandardLoop["常规交配后状态"]
A1["高潮与射精"] --> B1["催乳素激增"]
B1 --> C1["多巴胺受抑制 / 产生不应期"]
end
subgraph NoveltyLoop["新奇刺激介入（柯立芝效应）"]
C1 -.->|原伴侣| D1["漫长的不应期 (数小时至数天)"]
C1 -->|引入新伴侣/新奇视觉源| E1["新奇性激活多巴胺系统"]
E1 --> F1["强行冲破催乳素抑制"]
F1 --> G1["不应期大幅缩短，重新勃起唤起"]
end
```
- **演化价值与两性纽带**：在啮齿动物、家禽、犬类乃至灵长类动物身上均已证实，若将原有配偶替换为“新奇的配偶”，不应期会因多巴胺的大幅飙升而显著缩短。多巴胺天然与“新奇性”（novelty）绑定，具有冲破催乳素抑制的能力。
- **生理保护功能**：天然的不应期实际上在演化中扮演着促进配偶依恋（pair bonding）的关键作用。交配后的温存、气味与信息素交换、共处一室、依偎入睡等行为，是加深情感联结的基石。
- **色情虚拟环境的错位**：在现实生活中，一个人独自面对屏幕浏览近乎无限、不断翻新的极端色情图像，本质上是在用人造的新奇性无限激活柯立芝效应。这种神经层面的极度刺激不仅让人在现实世界中对伴侣脱敏，而且这种虚幻的神经反馈机制完全脱离了真实、安全的现实人际亲密关系。
### [02:31:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9062s) 多巴胺机制与色情内容的超常刺激陷阱
Andrew Huberman 深入剖析了多巴胺系统的神经生物学底层逻辑：任何能够在短时间内诱发大量多巴胺释放、且无需付出艰苦努力即可轻松获取的行为或物质，本质上都潜藏着严重的神经适应性危机。从进化生物学的角度来看，大脑分泌多巴胺的水平与持续时间，必须与个体追求某种具有演化适应性价值的目标（如觅食、求偶、生存协作）相匹配。然而，甲基苯丙胺（冰毒）等强效毒品彻底绕过了这种“付出与回报”的进化约束机制，人为制造出巨大的多巴胺洪峰。这种虚假暴增必然伴随着系统崩盘，随之而来的是深度抑郁、痛苦和更为强烈的渴求——使用者甚至需要再次滥用仅仅为了回到原先的多巴胺基线。同样的成瘾神经回路，也高频出现在病理性赌博和暴食障碍的人群中。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 努力与多巴胺奖赏回路对比
accDescr: 对比进化自适应努力获取多巴胺与非自然超常刺激短路机制
subgraph ADAPTIVE["进化适应性机制（健康循环）"]
A["设定目标并付出实际努力"] --> B["多巴胺按比例平稳释放"]
B --> C["获得真实生活技能与满足感"]
end
subgraph MALADAPTIVE["超常刺激机制（成瘾恶性循环）"]
D["极低门槛 / 瞬间获取（如网络色情）"] --> E["多巴胺暴增触发神经阈值上调"]
E --> F["现实生活脱节、基线坍塌与功能障碍"]
end
```
这种神经化学规律在当代网络色情消费中体现得尤为严峻。互联网上唾手可得的高强度、超常刺激内容（涵盖多角色、极端剧本及高度人工化的视听呈现）不断重塑着大脑的奖赏回路。长期暴露在此类刺激下，个体对“性兴奋”的神经感知阈值被大幅度推高，久而久之，他们唯有依靠更加极端的超常刺激才能产生反应。致命的问题在于，这种在屏幕前建立的被动多巴胺动态，完全无法迁移到现实世界：它不会赋予人与现实伴侣展开交流沟通的能力，也无法指导人们如何处理复杂的真实人际亲密关系。
- **多巴胺失衡核心定律**：凡是不以付出努力为前提而产生的大幅多巴胺飙升，都会导致奖赏中枢的感知阈值病理性升高。
- **超常刺激的毒化效应**：网络色情内容以极低的时间和精力成本，提供了现实生活中根本无法企及的多巴胺刺激密度。
- **现实能力脱节**：屏幕上的兴奋回路无法转化为现实社交技巧，反而摧毁了个体面对真实伴侣时的感知与互动能力。
---
### [02:33:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9180s) 年轻男性的成瘾困境与破裂的亲密关系
谈及色情成瘾，Huberman 指出这一话题往往夹杂着浓厚的宗教道德审判，导致客观理性的公共讨论极度匮乏。但在他的播客后台，过去几年中涌入了成千上万名年轻男性的求助私信。这些年轻人表达出的情绪不是放纵，而是深重的沮丧、挫败与被欺骗感。他们感觉自己像是掉进了一个神经进化的圈套：大脑天生就会追逐任何能触发生物多巴胺奖赏的事物，当这种高度模拟自然繁殖诱饵的数字刺激被挂在眼前时，他们身不由己地被吸入其中，最终却落得神经枯竭、生活停滞的境地。虽然数据证实女性同样会观看色情内容，但公开表达严重痛苦和功能受损的群体，主要集中在年轻男性身上。
Huberman 将这场危机与社会心理学家 Jonathan Haidt 在其著作《焦虑一代》（*The Anxious Generation*）中探讨的现象相提并论。正如社交媒体和数字生态彻底引爆了年轻女孩的心理健康危机一样，泛滥的网络色情与移动约会软件的普及，也重构了年轻一代的性与情感生态。如今约会软件充斥着“潜在伴侣触手可及”的虚拟期待，现实中的实际约会和线下性行为却在断崖式下跌。在生理层面，这种多巴胺紊乱直接催生了广泛的器质或心理性问题，如心理源性勃起功能障碍（ED）以及现实亲密接触时的冷淡和麻木。面对成瘾，生物学上最有效也是最艰难的方案唯有“禁欲”（Abstinence），但如何安全落地依然充满争议。
- **极度普遍的求助心声**：Huberman 的后台收到数以千计关于色情成瘾的求救信息，来信者普遍伴随着被诱导、被掏空以及深陷泥潭的无力感。
- **跨领域危机类比**：该现象与社交媒体引发的青少年心理危机同构，急需精神科医生、心理学家和神经科学专家共同建立跨学科对话机制。
- **生理与功能衰退**：色情依赖直接导致现实世界中的性功能障碍，如勃起困难和亲密互动无能。
---
### [02:36:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9397s) 阈值漂移的真实代价与现实替代品缺失
Steven Bartlett 坦诚地分享了自己的亲身经历以佐证这种神经适应的残酷性。他回忆起自己少年时期第一次接触到极其微弱的暴露画面时，那种强烈的心理与生理震撼感堪称“世界上最令人兴奋的事情”。然而随着年龄增长（现年 31 岁）以及网络色情内容的长期浸泡，原本的刺激阈值早已彻底失效。不仅个人的性兴奋阈值发生了不可逆的漂移，现实生活中的性体验甚至被迫变得更加极端，以此来勉强迎合被色情制品拔高的虚假预期。
随后，Steven 提出了一个极为尖锐且现实的社会困境：社会学数据显示，当前社会存在严重的性资源分化，前 10% 的男性占据了大部分性机会，而底层 50% 的年轻男性可能长达一年没有任何性生活。在缺乏现实情感通道的现实下，如果机械地要求一个 19 岁、荷尔蒙旺盛的年轻人彻底戒绝自慰与色情，现实中却无法为他提供任何可行的替代方案，这无疑会让这群人陷入无所适从的绝望。
Huberman 承认这触及了问题的最棘手之处。解决之道不能是一刀切的粗暴压制，而是需要逐步调低行为刺激的强度，引导他们学习如何通过真实的现实行动去建立健康的浪漫与性关系。Steven 则旗帜鲜明地表明了自己当前的彻底反对立场：在深入理解了多巴胺机制、大脑适应性以及自身长达五年的稳定伴侣关系之后，他发现色情内容不仅对现实卧室表现毫无助益，而且从长期来看“找不到任何净正向收益”。Huberman 深表赞同并引用了一句经典谚语作为结语：“想练好俯卧撑，就必须亲自做俯卧撑”——要真正掌握亲密沟通与现实相处之道，唯一的途径就是投身于现实的人际交往与关系实践之中。
- **兴奋阈值的单向漂移**：长期暴露在数字化刺激中会大幅提高唤醒阈值，导致现实中正常的性吸引力大幅钝化。
- **残酷的现实鸿沟**：性活跃度高度集中于少数群体，使得底层大量年轻男性在戒断虚拟刺激时面临漫长的“现实替代品真空期”。
- **实践才能培养能力**：任何被动消费都无法取代现实社交；提升亲密关系质量的唯一路径是在现实人际互动中积累经验与磨炼技能。
### [02:39:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9588s) 色情内容、即时满足与多巴胺失控的现代隐患
Andrew Huberman 谈到色情内容（尤其是对年轻男性）所带来的潜在危害远大于其所谓的益处。他回忆起自己的成长年代，当时接触成人刊物需要极高的门槛，往往像是在“城市公共图书馆”寻找秘密据点一样——大家知道某堆《花花公子》（Playboy）杂志被藏在某个垃圾桶后面或建筑拐角，得专程跑过去翻阅。色情内容在当时绝非童年或生活的主流部分，他在家中也从未无意翻到过父亲藏匿的成人杂志。而在当今时代，互联网将一切变成了“低努力门槛、高多巴胺刺激”（low-effort threshold, high-dopamine scenario）的极端模式：人们手指动一动就能搜出海量色情内容，想吃高糖高脂的美食直接外卖送上门。
这种低成本获得巨大神经刺激的现状极为棘手。Huberman 直言，指望通过法律法规来限制人们获取这些刺激是不切实际的，因为人们总能找到钻空子的办法。关键在于个体自身的神经自我调节机制（self-regulatory mechanisms）。以处方兴奋剂为例，数据显示大约 80% 的大学生在没有处方的情况下滥用处方兴奋剂以获取专注或多巴胺。而在他读大学的时期，根本没人这么做，大家顶多喝咖啡，偶尔有人吃一片 NoDoz 咖啡因药片就被视为极端举动。
成功掌控生活的人必须深刻理解自身的多巴胺机制，学会克制与自我调节，警惕任何不需要付出努力就能导致多巴胺激增且极易成瘾的事物。Huberman 强调，他完全不担心有人在健身房喝能量饮料、听着重金属音乐撸铁，这种行为几乎没有危害；但他极为担忧高频次观看高强度色情内容，或者健康人滥用处方兴奋剂——这是导致心理倦怠（burnout）、抑郁甚至走向崩溃的危险温床。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 多巴胺获取模式与心理健康后果对比
accDescr: 流程图展示了低努力高多巴胺与高努力健康追求两种路径带来的完全不同结果。
subgraph HighDopamineLowEffort["低努力、高多巴胺路径（高风险）"]
A["即时满足刺激<br/>（高频网络色情 / 滥用处方兴奋剂 / 极度加工外卖）"] --> B["多巴胺基线骤升后暴跌<br/>（神经系统耐受与成瘾）"]
B --> C["心理倦怠、抑郁与虚无感"]
end
subgraph HealthyGoalPursuit["健康努力路径（可持续）"]
D["现实生活目标<br/>（建立真实社交 / 事业追求 / 规律运动）"] --> E["努力伴随的多巴胺循环<br/>（过程导向的神经调节）"]
E --> F["心理韧性、意义感与社群联结"]
end
```
- 滥用处方药数据：据统计，约 80% 的大学生在未持有合法处方的情况下服用过处方兴奋剂来强行提高注意力或刺激多巴胺。
- 低努力与高成瘾性：相比于伴随大运动量和音乐的能量饮料，几乎不需要任何前期身体努力即可触发多巴胺尖峰的色情内容与违规药物，其危害性呈指数级上升。
---
### [02:42:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9778s) 追逐意义与多巴胺陷阱：为什么金钱无法填补空虚
主持人提到，深陷色情或赌博成瘾的年轻男性往往把自己关在卧室内，缺乏恋爱对象，生活中也没有明确目标，追问追逐宏大目标（例如创业）是否能成为摆脱多巴胺成瘾的解药。Huberman 给予了明确肯定的答复，他指出，追求有益健康的现实目标——无论是拓展社交关系还是增加收入——都会让神经系统重回正轨。但他随即警告，如果仅仅把追逐金钱本身当成目标，将极其危险。
Huberman 引用电影《华尔街》（Wall Street）中的经典对白：当有人问主角“你的数字是多少（你要赚多少钱）”时，对方的回答只有简单的“更多”（More）。这正是多巴胺的本质属性——多巴胺关乎的永远不是拥有的总数，而是“追逐与获取”（the verb of acquisition）这个动作本身。许多人赚到 100 万美元时想要 1000 万，赚到 1000 万时想要 1 亿，达到 1 亿后又想成为百亿富豪。Huberman 直言，自己认识很多亿万富翁，其中有些人过得很幸福，但也有人陷入极度的痛苦与不幸之中；金钱本身只是工具，多巴胺才是大脑通用的货币，一个人过得是否幸福完全取决于他如何管理自己与多巴胺的关系。
- 电影典故：1987年电影《华尔街》中关于对金钱永不满足的“More”一词，精准概括了多巴胺机制只奖赏“追逐过程”而非“拥有状态”的生物学特质。
- 财富与幸福的脱钩：亿万富翁群体的两极分化表明，若无法理顺自身的多巴胺奖赏回路，财富增长非但不能带来满足，反而会放大内在的空虚。
---
### [02:44:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9892s) 战胜孤独危机：晨间“早安短信”的神经生物学力量
面对当代社会日益严重的“孤独与疏离危机”（isolation crisis），Huberman 指出，扭转这种局面并不需要立刻建立庞大的社交网络，仅仅建立一段充满信任、可靠的人际关系就足以产生决定性的改变。他提出了一项极度简单、看似琐碎甚至有些“俗套”（corny）但极为强大的具体行动建议：每天早晨给一个人发送“早安”（Good morning）短信。
在现代社会，尤其是年轻男性群体中，完全缺乏朋友的比例正急剧升高，女性面临孤独的比例同样不可忽视。Huberman 强调，早晨向同类（another member of your species）打卡致意，不需要展开冗长复杂的对话，也不需要讨论当天的宏伟计划；甚至像主持人提到的男性好友群里互发脏话、互相吐槽开玩笑也可以，若能顺带问一句“昨晚睡得怎么样？今天有什么打算？”效果更佳。这一行为的核心在于：让你在清晨醒来时知道世界上有人在牵挂你，自己依然是部落（tribe）的一部分。
Huberman 分享了自己的个人习惯：他每天早晨雷打不动地与两位好友互发早安短信，偶尔还会联系第三位朋友以及其他不定期联系的人。如果到了中午还没有收到其中任何一位的回复，他就会开始有些担心。这种微小的日常确定性与可预期的可靠社交联结，能够产生极其强大的心理锚定作用，让人感受到自己置身于超越自我的社群网络之中。
- 晨间极简联结法：每天早晨与至少一名固定的朋友互发一条“早安”短信，即使内容只是简短问候或调侃，也能有效激活部落归属感。
- 美国卫生局局长警告：美国公共卫生局局长（US Surgeon General）已将孤独与社交孤立列为严重的公共健康危机，人际互动在生物学层面与饮食睡眠同样重要。
---
### [02:47:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10054s) 灵长类本能：眼神接触与宠物对孤独的疗愈
Huberman 进一步阐释，人类属于旧世界灵长类动物（old world primates），我们的神经系统进化出了彼此注视、眼神交流（look other people in the eye）的本能需求。人类不可能彻底脱离他人、仅仅活在自己与孤立目标的真空关系里。这就是为什么通勤前往工作场所、或者即便居家办公也要去咖啡馆和图书馆坐坐的重要意义——在晨间看见鲜活的人脸。
哪怕某些早晨人们心情欠佳、不想“面对新的一天”（face the day），但在白天的某个时间段，即便只是在街上遛狗时与迎面而来的邻居对视一眼、简短地道一声“嗨”，对维持心理健康都是至关重要的。最后，Huberman 谈到了一种最极端但也普遍存在的情形：有些人生活中已经彻底孤立，连一个可以发早安短信的亲友都没有。对此，他强烈建议去领养一只宠物：“一只狗能完成极多的人际情感代偿工作，虽不能解决所有问题，但它能带来极其巨大的疗愈力量。”
### [02:48:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10103s) 社交连接的神经基础与“早安短信”法则
人类对于连接的渴望深植于大脑的生理构造中。照顾另一个生命——哪怕只是一条金鱼或一只宠物狗——都能在大脑中建立起强烈的共情与责任感：我们照料它们，它们在情感上也依赖并滋养着我们。在人类大脑的“神经地皮”（neural real estate）分配中，绝大部分区域用于视觉处理和运动控制，而紧随其后的核心神经资源，几乎全部分配给了语言与社交连接。现代人若想维护心理防线，最简单有效的微习惯之一，就是找到一个可以长期互相发送“早安短信”的人，理想状态下最好每天都保持这种微小的联络。
斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）敏锐地指出，安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）骨子里看起来并不像一个天生外向、热衷社交的人。巴特利特坦言自己也是个彻头彻尾的独行侠，早年在英国环境恶劣的街区创业时，曾整整一年把自己关在小房间里不与外界接触，如果完全任由天性主导，他甚至可以不和任何人交往。休伯曼对此深有共鸣，他坦言自己也完全能承受长时间的独处，但随着年龄增长，内心对真正社交连接的渴望反而愈发强烈。
休伯曼人生中面临的大多数内心冲突，本质上都是在“全身心投入热爱的工作所需的高度孤立、自律与专注”，以及“人类本能对社交连接的渴望”之间寻找平衡。无论是与姐姐保持日常沟通，还是与父母保持定期联系，健康的亲密关系与友情都是他心理健康的核心支柱。在人际关系的光谱上，没有人需要海量的浅层泛泛之交；生命中只要能拥有一个甚至几个真正可靠、无话不谈的挚友，就足以抵御风浪。无论是个人的辉煌成就还是至暗时刻，唯有与他人共同分担与分享时，才具有真正的重量。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 社交连接与心理韧性的多层级网络
accDescr: 展示从日常微互动到核心深层友谊的建立机制
subgraph Micro["微观日常习惯"]
A["每日早安问候 / 照料生命 (宠物或金鱼)"]
B["社区微互动 (街坊、咖啡师点头之交)"]
end
subgraph Principles["结交真友的两大法则"]
C["保持真实兴趣: 有趣味者自有吸引力"]
D["主动付出服务: 率先问候与支持他人"]
end
subgraph Core["深层心理支撑"]
E["高神经安全感与未来确定性预期"]
F["核心亲友圈 (10至15位深度联络人)"]
end
Micro --> C
Micro --> D
C --> E
D --> E
E --> F
```
---
### [02:51:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10261s) 建立友谊的两大法则与日常微互动的力量
很多人苦恼于不知该如何结交朋友，休伯曼引述朋友的经验，总结出两条颠扑不破的法则：
1. **“有自己兴趣的人才是最有趣的”**（"People with interests are interesting"）：去真正投入并钻研自己热爱的事物，无论是阅读、专业技能还是某种爱好，不必为了社交而伪装兴趣，纯粹的专注本身就会散发吸引力。
2. **“主动提供价值与服务”**（"Be of service"）：如果自己不是那种天生人缘爆棚、别人抢着找你玩的人，那就主动成为那个先发早安问候、定期关怀亲友近况的人；如果对方长久没有回应，再把精力转向别处也不迟。
日常生活中看似微不足道的互动，在进化生物学层面具有惊人的调节作用。比如牵着狗在熟悉的街区散步，或是每天早晨向固定的咖啡师道一声好。这些反复出现的熟悉面孔，能够强力激活大脑中关于“安全感”与“可预测性”的神经回路。现代社会充斥着政治动荡与撕裂，充斥着不可预知的不确定性，而人与人之间不带功利目的的善意（goodness），是抵抗这种外界混乱的天然锚点。
对于正在与色情成瘾、酗酒、药物滥用或行为依赖搏斗的人群，休伯曼特别提醒，全世界几乎所有主要城市都有零成本的匿名互助小组。戒除成瘾不能依靠孤立奋战，这种零门槛的社群支持是打破多巴胺劫持的重要工具。即便对于像休伯曼这样天生排斥跑步俱乐部、习惯独自训练的人来说，也无法否认健康的社交连接是维系生命活力的底层必需品。
- **微互动的神经机制**：在熟悉的路线散步并与邻里打招呼，有助于大脑建立环境预测模型，大幅降低交感神经系统的威胁警报。
- **成瘾戒断的社交支撑**：成瘾行为的温床往往是隐秘的孤立，全球各地的十二步法等互助群体为行为脱瘾提供了零金钱成本的线下连接途径。
---
### [02:53:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10416s) 三十岁中期的孤独觉醒与“30人核心联系清单”
巴特利特询问休伯曼是在什么时候真正意识到社交连接不可或缺的。休伯曼回忆道，他的童年是在街尾一群男孩打打闹闹、成群结队的玩耍中度过的；青少年时期沉迷于滑板文化，身边也始终挤满了伙伴。然而，当他下定决心走上严谨的学术与科研道路后，整整若干年，他都习惯了独自一人日夜泡在实验室里，伴随他的只有耳机里的有声书和音乐。
直到三十五岁左右，休伯曼的生活发生了深刻的转折。尽管当时身边有女朋友，但他突然强烈地察觉到一种深入骨髓的孤独感，甚至发现自己开始用一些不健康的模式向外寻求刺激和连接。这次危机让他警醒，他开始有意识地重新审视并修复自己的社交圈。
休伯曼坦陈，现实中或许也有个别人认为他在人际关系中不够稳定，但如果去问他最亲密的10到15个核心朋友，他们一定会证明休伯曼是那个雷打不动主动过问彼此近况的人。休伯曼的个人笔记本之外，实际上私下整理了一份约30人的“核心亲友清单”：
- **第一梯队（10至15人）**：属于生命中不可或缺的支柱，他要求自己每天或每周至少联系一次，休伯曼直言“没有这些人，生命便失去了色彩”。
- **第二梯队（延伸至30人）**：长期放在心上的亲友，即便没有严苛的日常计划，只要意识到一段时间没通话，就会主动拨通电话确认近况。
---
### [02:55:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10510s) “星球大战无人机”式的交往模式：重深度而非频率
当巴特利特询问这15到30人的核心名单是如何筛选出来的，休伯曼表示这完全取决于彼此接纳的直觉与感受。他坦言自己的沟通节奏其实非常古怪，甚至曾在过往的人际交往中惹出过不少麻烦。一位知心密友曾把休伯曼形容为《星球大战》里那种悬浮打转的小无人机（probe droid）——突然飞到你眼前全力互动，随后倏地消失不见。
休伯曼承认，自己投入交流时就像开启了“10分满分的专注度”，百分之百全情投入；但一旦交流结束，他就必须退回自己的贝壳里，需要巨大的个人空间来进行心理重置。懂他的真正朋友都明白这一特点，知道他虽然“消失”了，但终究会带着满格的诚意回归。
能够进入休伯曼核心名单的人，往往具有相似的情感特质。有时双方在短信里约好“明天聊、明天聊”，结果各自忙碌一推再推；但彼此绝不会责怪对方不靠谱，因为双方都深知各自背负的生活与工作。当电话终于接通，哪怕仅仅是一段10分钟或1小时的对话，其信息与情感的丰沛程度都会让人心潮澎湃，远胜过天天打卡式的浅薄寒暄。正如休伯曼所总结的，真正维系生命质量的不是互动的频率，而是互动的深度与丰盈度。
### [02:56:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10596s) 真正的友谊与逆境中的支持
安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）动情地谈到了支撑他走过低谷的深厚友谊。每当提到那些在他遭遇艰难时刻挺身而出的朋友，他都会忍不住眼眶湿润。近期在他经历人生重大困境时，许多好友甚至直接赶到他家中陪伴他，其中不乏播客界大家熟知的同行。休伯曼坦言，自己以前从未体会过这种被全然托举的感觉：“他们来到我家，坐在我身边，把我拉了起来，提醒我究竟是谁。”这种无条件的信任与陪伴让他内心充满了无以言表的感激。
作为一个49岁的成年人，休伯曼坦承自己的人生有做对的事，也有许多深感遗憾的选择；但在当时的情境下，他始终竭尽全力用手头拥有的资源去做最好的自己。真正的挚友不仅能理解这种复杂性，更能感知他的为人。休伯曼指出，这种深厚情谊绝非单向索取，而是双向奔赴的建立——过去当朋友身处险境或需要帮助时，他也会毫不犹豫地立刻跳上车赶过去。这种纽带不是在危机爆发时突然凭空产生的，而是在风平浪静的日常生活中，通过彼此全身心的投入、放下手机认真倾听、或是仅仅舒适地待在一起看场球赛，一点一滴累积起来的注意力与关怀。
休伯曼强调，这才是生命中最有价值、最值得为之活着的部分，远比任何神经化学递质（如多巴胺）的机制要深刻得多。只要每天怀揣着对彼此的关照，发一条简单的早安问候，无论对方是否即时回复，只要彼此建立了互惠的连接，就会在生活中拥有一个可以倚靠的“后援舰队”（crew），在令人眩晕、筋疲力尽的艰难现实中获得立足点，并在顺境降临时共同加倍庆祝。
- **友谊的基石**：并非在危急关头临时抱佛脚，而是在没有危机发生的平时持续付出纯粹的注意力与关怀。
- **情感互惠**：从日常琐碎的问候和陪伴开始，逐步建立起在危机时刻能够彼此托底的信任网络。
---
### [03:00:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10851s) 面对媒体风暴与不实指控：成年人的应对与原则
史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）将话题引向休伯曼过去一年中所经历的舆论风暴。巴特利特结合自身被媒体攻击的经历指出，遭受舆论围剿时最折磨人的是那种强烈的冤屈感（sense of injustice），当事人极度渴望冲出去大声呐喊澄清事实，却又深知无能为力。巴特利特非常好奇：作为一位专注于撰写健康生活方案与身体行为守则（Protocols）的科学家，休伯曼在面对舆论风暴时究竟有着怎样的行动法则？同时巴特利特也注意到，莱克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman）等好友公开声援并亲自到场支持休伯曼。休伯曼证实，莱克斯曾数次亲自出现在他家中，有一回他一抬头就看到莱克斯穿着标志性的西装站在客厅里，宛如梦境一般，对方专程赶来只是为了默默陪在身边。
谈及不实报道带来的巨大创伤，休伯曼直言，无论是在聚光灯下的公众人物，还是社交媒体时代的普通人，几乎都会在人生某个节点面临“被彻底歪曲”的境地。那些流传的言论在根本事实上完全不成立，事件的背景被恶意剥离或篡改。尽管当事人内心渴望彻底讲出另一个版本的故事，但往往必须选择克制：一方面是因为公开辩解极易被大众再度曲解，另一方面是出于基本的教养与对牵涉其中的多方当事人的尊重。更重要的是，休伯曼深刻意识到，公共舆论场从来不是解决私人分歧或达成情感治愈的场所；无论是在高中校园、播客圈、娱乐圈还是政界，试图在公开广场上解决复杂的人际纠葛从未真正带来过真正的和解。
面对铺天盖地的指控，休伯曼分析了三种选择：反驳叙事、保持沉默，或是全盘认同。他认为真正的“成年人思维”在于有能力区分两类事实：一方面坦然承认自己的不成熟，“其中确实有些事情，我真希望当时能做出不一样的选择”；另一方面坚决划清底线，“但另一些指控完全不是事实，上下文完全被歪曲，是彻头彻尾的谎言”。在舆论和某些媒体的报道中，真实的人性瑕疵与捏造的谎言往往像手指交错（interdigitated）一样被编织在一起。这在科学上就像“挑拣数据”（cherry-picking）甚至篡改实验结果，仅展示符合预设结论的单一视角。在这种极其扭曲的极端压力下，当事人最关键的应对守则不是仓促反击，而是坐下来看清现实，借助真正值得信赖的朋友、同事与家人充当客观清澈的“透镜”（clear optics），在自身情绪受阻、视线受限时做出清醒理智的决断。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 面对舆论指控时的成年人理性应对模型
accDescr: 展示面对外界指控时，从三种基础应对选项到成年人成熟判断与朋友视角的完整决策流。
subgraph External["外部环境：媒体与舆论指控"]
A["指控混杂真实瑕疵与恶意捏造<br/>（数据挑拣 / 语境剥离）"]
end
subgraph Choices["应对策略选择"]
B["强行反驳叙事"]
C["保持沉默克制"]
D["全盘认同妥协"]
end
subgraph MatureResponse["成熟成年人的辨析维度"]
E["真诚认错：<br/>承认某些过往选择确实欠妥"]
F["严正澄清：<br/>坚决否认完全失实与捏造的指控"]
end
subgraph Resolution["解决与愈合路径"]
G["拒绝将公共舆论场当作治愈工具"]
H["依靠挚友与家人提供清澈视角（Clear Optics）"]
I["沉着决策，专注当下手头工作"]
end
A --> B
A --> C
A --> D
C --> MatureResponse
E --> G
F --> G
G --> H
H --> I
```
- **成年人面对指控的双重视角**：既不全盘否认自身的不完美（承认部分事情若能重来会做出不同抉择），也不屈从于捏造的谎言（明确指出上下文错位与不实事实）。
- **媒体报道的“挑拣数据”本质**：如同劣质科研中剔除反面数据、拼凑特定图表一样，某些媒体报道将局部事实与捏造内容交织编织，制造出高度倾斜的片面叙事。
- **危机应对的核心支柱**：在认知和情绪受挫的至暗时刻，依赖身边亲近朋友提供客观而清晰的“光学透镜”，防止被外界喧嚣带偏节奏。
### [03:06:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11166s) 应对风波的核心原则：忠于自我与基础神经生理调节
在谈及面对外界非议与舆论风波时，Andrew Huberman 强调，与身边值得信赖的朋友交流固然重要，但这种沟通绝不是为了制定战术或玩弄公关策略，其核心在于“忠于自我”。面对纷繁复杂的外部声音，他选择不深陷于争辩细节，而是将每一次困境都视为学习的契机。很多人好奇，他自己常年推崇的神经科学方案在极端压力下是否真的奏效；Huberman 直言，睡眠在这一时期至关重要。尽管有几天因为录制工作过度推进或心事重重而睡得稍少，导致网友纷纷猜测“他看起来很疲惫”，但他始终依赖生理性叹息（physiological sighs）和非睡眠深度休息（NSDR, Non-Sleep Deep Rest）等身体调节工具来稳定神经系统。
此外，在面对重大压力与危机时，Huberman 极度倚重真正信任的少数好友所组成的社会支持网络。他指出，寻求意见的关键在于“精”而不在于“多”，绝不能像搞民调一样去问上百个人的意见并逐一权衡利弊——人类的大脑根本无法以此机制做出正确决策。最终，他遵循自己的良知与内心，做出的选择是继续专注于本职工作：持续产出基于科学实证的健康与体能内容。他坚信听众打开播客的初衷是为了改善睡眠、掌握运动方案以及向顶尖科学家求教，而不是围观舆论口水战。
---
### [03:07:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11276s) 社交媒体的“课堂规则”与父亲传授的公私边界
面对互联网上无休止的揣测与攻击，Huberman 将自己的 Instagram 账号运营比作管理大学课堂。他定下了清晰的“课堂守则”：网友可以批评他、给他起外号，甚至偶尔说脏话他都能容忍；但若有人开始在评论区互相辱骂、攻击其他用户，他便会先给出警告，屡教不改者直接拉黑。Huberman 驳斥了所谓“博主无权拉黑他人”的荒谬论调，坚决捍卫个人数字空间的边界：“这是我的页面，这是我的课堂，不遵守规矩就请离开。”
这种界限感深深扎根于 Huberman 的成长经历。他谈到公众往往有一种误区，以为通过屏幕就能看透网红或公众人物的整个人生，甚至产生病态的窥私欲。Huberman 分享了来自阿根廷的父亲曾给他的深刻启发：在美国，人们往往喜欢在办公室桌上摆放面朝访客的家人照片，带着某种向外展示的意味；但在南美或欧洲部分地区，父亲桌面上的家人合影永远是朝向自己摆放的。父亲曾告诉他，家人的照片是属于自己的情感寄托，无需拿来向世界展示。Huberman 深受这种价值观影响，认为人必须懂得把私密生活向内收敛，而不是把生命的每一个维度都赤裸裸地摊在社交网络上，过度公开对个人心理往往极具破坏性。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 社交与空间边界管理模型
accDescr: 展示 Huberman 在公开网络与私人领域设定的两层心理与行为防火墙
subgraph Classroom ["公开数字空间（课堂模型）"]
A["个人主页 / 评论区"] --> B{"言论性质判定"}
B -- "对博主的质疑/批评" --> C["予以容忍并保留"]
B -- "用户间人身攻击" --> D["发出警告 -> 屡犯直接拉黑"]
end
subgraph Boundaries ["私人生活空间（桌面向内模型）"]
E["私人情感与家庭"] --> F["向内自持"]
F --> G["拒绝向公众让渡全部隐私"]
end
```
---
### [03:10:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11413s) 真正的至暗时刻：年少受困与三位导师的相继离世
主持人询问，若在他遭遇最近的风波时做一只“墙上的苍蝇”，会目睹怎样挣扎痛苦的场景。Huberman 坦率回应，这次舆论风暴远非他人生中最艰难的时刻。他回忆起人生真正的绝境：第一次是 14 岁时被关在封闭收容机构的铁门后，前途未卜且毫无人生自主权，既没有钱也没有依靠，只能绝望地打电话给滑板赞助商 Thunder 和 Spitfire Wheels 的车队经理 Steve Rougie（绰号“Shrugie”）求救，而对方也无能为力；另一次则是年轻时在 7 月 4 日打架斗殴后，深感自己是个彻头彻尾的失败者。
在学术生涯中，更沉重的打击来自他与三位学术导师之间如同宿命般的生离死别。在科研领域，Huberman 与导师的关系宛如至亲，但他的本科导师死于自杀，待他如慈母的博士导师在 60 岁出头因癌症去世，而博士后导师 Ben Barres 同样在 60 多岁因癌症过世。连续失去三位生命中最核心的引路人，Huberman 甚至一度怀疑自己身上有诅咒：“难道只要我为谁工作，谁就会死吗？”面对巨大的虚无与痛苦，他唯一的解脱方式是将内心的剧痛转化为利他之举，决心将科学知识无偿带给大众，这也直接促成了《Huberman Lab》播客的诞生。
---
### [03:12:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11552s) 科学孤儿的心态与面对人生“真正失败”的领悟
三位恩师的先后离去，使 Huberman 在学术体制内成了名副其实的“科学孤儿”。在学术圈，年轻学者往往背负着不辜负导师声誉的沉重期待，而导师全无的境遇反而让他彻底卸下了包袱。对于学术同行对他播客的评价，Huberman 展现出极其超然的心态：约三分之一的同行真心喜欢并当面鼓励他；约三分之一赞赏播客让大众关注科学，但对其偏重实用健康略有微词；剩下的三分之一则可能出于嫉妒或风格分歧而充满敌意。对此他的态度十分干脆：“你做你的，我做我的。大家都得对自己的生活负责，我无需为别人的情绪买单。”
然而，在事业一路高歌猛进、40 岁便拿到斯坦福大学终身教职的光环背后，生活却在亲密关系上给了他沉重一击。多年前，他经历了一段倾注了多年心血的严肃感情的彻底破裂。在一次静修活动中，深陷痛苦的他被一位女性友人一针见血地指出：“你根本不习惯失败，对吧？”这句话如当头棒喝，Huberman 坦承自己在事业上总能解决问题，但在那段双方都极度投入、共同苦苦挣扎却依然因缺乏相处技能而崩溃的感情中，他犯了错误，迎来了人生中一次不可辩驳的“真正的失败”。
- **学术界同行的三类反应分布**：
- 约 1/3 的人由衷赞赏播客，认为形式新颖且极有价值；
- 约 1/3 的人认可其科普影响力，但对过度偏向健康实操持保留态度；
- 约 1/3 的人因表达形式或竞争嫉妒心理而心生反感与排斥。
- **关于感情失败的顿悟**：即便双方都付出巨大努力、耗费数年心力，缺乏必要的情感技能仍会导致关系瓦解，坦然承认败局是迈向心理成熟的必经之路。
### [03:14:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11667s) 不愿放手的执念与亲密关系的困局
在谈及过去的一段感情时，Andrew Huberman 情绪激动、眼眶湿润。主持人敏锐地注意到了他脸上的微表情，问他为何会如此触动。Huberman 坦承，外界常常对他有误解，甚至有人扣上“自私”、“自恋狂”这类帽子，但他自己深知内心最大的挑战究竟是什么——那就是“极度难以放手”（a very hard time letting go）。对他而言，如果是生死离别，他尚且能够承受，但若是活着去割舍一个在乎的人，那种痛苦是不可承受之重。加上他本身的相处模式常常是在极度全情投入（very present）之后，又需要抽身进行健康的自我调整（self-care），这种节奏也常让伴侣感到困惑。
最致命的问题在于，他极度抗拒一段关系的终结。Huberman 自嘲自己的“分手流程规范”（breakup protocol）糟糕透顶：所有真正懂他、被他信任的密友都会直言不讳地指出，他在注定会失败、甚至已经彻底死透的关系里耗得太久了。他骨子里有一股“绝不轻言放弃”（not a quitter）的倔强，哪怕一段关系从一开始就困难重重且并不健康，他也总想着靠拼命死磕来挽回。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 难以放手的关系循环
accDescr: 展示 Huberman 在亲密关系中由于过度共情与拒绝放弃而陷入的死循环
subgraph Trap["死磕陷阱"]
A["关系出现不可调和的困难"] --> B["过度共情与责任感：绝不当逃兵"]
B --> C["双方倾尽全力却缺乏应对技巧"]
C --> D["拒绝宣布死亡时间 (Refuse to call time of death)"]
D --> E["长时间深陷消耗与痛苦"]
E --> A
end
```
- **关系的沉重过往**：他澄清自己动容所指的并非近期（当年引发争议）的感情，而是多年前的一段往事。当时彼此深爱，双方都拼尽了全力，但因为缺乏成熟的情感技巧以及时机不成熟，最终还是走向失败。
- **拒绝宣布“死亡时间”**：Huberman 用了医疗上的比喻，形容自己“即使一段关系早已脑死亡，也坚决拒绝宣布死亡时间”（refuse to call time of death）。这不仅伤了自己，也连带伤害了对方。
- **失控的共情（Empathy Gone Wrong）**：这种执念并非源于逃避个人痛苦的自私，而是他无法同时承受他人与自己的痛苦。当这种过度的共情用在不对的人身上时，非但不能解决问题，反而会滋生极度不健康的互动动力，把彼此最糟糕的一面逼出来。
---
### [03:18:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11891s) 完美闭环的爱、自我照料与沟通基石
主持人询问这是否源于童年父母离异的创伤。Huberman 透露，虽然那些拿了他高额咨询费的心理专家总会归咎于童年，但他内心其实从未为父母分开而感到遗憾，因为父母各自重组的家庭都很好，他自己也拥有非常精彩的人生。在与畅销书作家兼导师 Martha Beck 交流时，Huberman 悟出了一个人际关系的对比：他对已故爱犬 Costello 的爱是一个“完美的闭环”——人付出爱，狗无条件回馈爱，爱的能量如同正向循环般无限放大；然而人与人之间的相处充满变数，既可能带来惊喜，也难免带来失望与伤害。
谈到亲密关系为何是全天下最艰难的课题，Huberman 引用了精神科专家 Paul Conti 博士在 Whitney Cummings 播客中的观点：如果列出亲密关系中最重要的 100 件事，安全感与接纳固然是必不可少的前提，但核心的 100 件事其实就是把“自我照料”（self-care）和“沟通”（communication）各自重复 50 遍。
- **复杂个体的相处难度**：很多人轻描淡写地说“对的人在一起就很轻松”，但 Huberman 认为这完全取决于双方有多复杂，以及彼此是否愿意投入心力去共同修通。
- **各领域能力的落差**：Huberman 渴望建立自己的家庭，因此在努力修补亲密关系短板。他坦白自己在其他社交维度几乎都是“百发百中”（only hit bull's-eyes）——与团队伙伴、商业搭档默契无间，与姐姐、父母以及挚友们关系融洽，唯独在两性关系这一关跌跌撞撞，依然在笨拙地摸索。
---
### [03:21:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12106s) 主持人的投射：视亲密关系为“牢狱”的防御机制
听完 Huberman 的剖白，主持人感同身受地分享了自己截然相反、却同样伤痕累累的成长印记。主持人的母亲是尼日利亚人，父亲是英国人，小时候他每天要看着母亲对着父亲连续痛骂怒吼七个小时，那段充满家庭暴力的记忆让他巴不得父母趁早离婚。由于目睹了父亲的窒息状态，他在 18 岁离家时脑海里深植了一个刻板信念：“亲密关系就是一座监狱”（a relationship is prison）。
这种创伤演化成了一种极度扭曲的自我防御模式：
- **主动追求却在得手后劝退**：直到 27 岁之前，每当有女生对他表达好感，或是他在追求成功、对方同意正式交往的那一刻，强烈的牢狱恐惧就会瞬间被激活。他会立刻反向操作，苦口婆心地劝说对方“跟我在一起是个糟糕的主意”，千方百计把对方推开，以捍卫自己脆弱的自由掌控权。
- **缺乏理解工具导致的男性自尊危机**：即使后来遇到了对的伴侣，相处第二年对方坦言“不喜欢与他发生性关系”，这让他顿时感到被阉割（emasculated），自尊心受挫下认定对方不爱自己而提出分手。直到一年后他才明白对方背负着关于性的过往创伤，而当时的自己完全缺乏读懂这些信号的沟通工具与成熟心智。他最终跨越半个地球飞去道歉，重新挽回了这段感情。
### [03:23:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12192s) 亲密关系中的艰难磨砺与共同成长
斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）坦诚分享了自己的一段亲密关系经历。他曾因为自身缺乏沟通技巧和应对工具，一度与伴侣分开，那是“在错误的时间遇到了对的人”。随后两人都付出了巨大的努力进行自我提升，经历了漫长而艰难的过程。两年前，女方从巴厘岛飞回，两人重新走到一起并同居，目前感情非常融洽。
斯蒂芬透露了一段非常私密的经历：伴侣曾对他说“不喜欢与他发生性关系”。这对年轻时的他打击极大，起初他甚至以为是自己在这方面表现不佳。然而，随着双方各自投入自我探索与疗愈，伴侣解开了成长过程中关于性的创伤（她此前已公开谈论过这些经历），而斯蒂芬也学会了在面对此类沟通时如何更好地回应。经过各自一年的努力，问题得到了圆满解决，两人的亲密关系达到了前所未有的融洽状态。斯蒂芬借此强调，每个人都有各自的挣扎——无论是不太亲近的家庭关系、经历波折的情感生活，还是不擅长主动联络朋友、更喜欢独处的性格，直面这些困难并付出努力至关重要。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 关系修复与个人成长循环
accDescr: 展示伴侣双方通过个人内省与创伤疗愈，最终实现关系升华的过程。
subgraph Problem ["暴露问题与受挫"]
A["沟通工具匮乏与创伤阻碍"] --> B["亲密关系遭遇严重挑战"]
end
subgraph IndividualWork ["各自开展深度自我疗愈"]
B --> C["一方疗愈过往创伤"]
B --> D["另一方改进沟通与承接能力"]
end
subgraph Resolution ["关系重建与升华"]
C & D --> E["重建安全感与深度联结"]
E --> F["形成更稳固的长期伴侣关系"]
end
```
- **关系的努力与轻松感**：安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）指出，所有人都说“关系需要经营”，但关键在于经营所需的“艰辛努力与轻松自如之间的比例”。这因人而异，世上并没有现成的使用手册。
- **正视人际维度的局限**：斯蒂芬谈到，我们在某些领域能够轻松做到“付出即有回报”，但在某些关系维度上却可能像西西弗斯推巨石上山一样不断受挫。
---
### [03:26:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12405s) 放下怨恨、拆除心防与活在当下
休伯曼强调，当一段关系通过艰苦努力在某个细微领域达成和解时，所带来的奖赏是无可比拟的。他深信许多问题都可以通过真诚沟通解决，而怨恨与愤怒对任何人都没有任何益处。休伯曼表示自己内心并不携带怨恨，尽管有时希望别人能做出不同的抉择，但“我们无法控制任何其他人的言行和思想，这是令人恐惧的”，因为他人确实有能力深深伤害我们。
面对这种潜在的伤害，人们往往倾向于筑起高墙来保护自己。但休伯曼近期所做的内在功课，正是去重新连接那个“没有筑起坚固心防”的年轻自我。他不再过度推演未来的两三步变化，而是学会尽可能全然地活在当下，用心体会生命中已经拥有的非凡馈赠——比如健康的体魄、当下深入对话的机会等。
---
### [03:28:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12518s) 感恩并非自满：能量的“螺旋上升”
休伯曼谈到自己认知上的一个重要转变：他过去曾认为，过度关注当下拥有的礼物和专注于感恩会让人变得安于现状、丧失进取心。然而，无论是科学数据还是他切身的体验都证实，心怀感恩不仅不会导致懈怠，反而会赋予大脑更多的能量与多巴胺，提升对未来可能性的期待与动力。
“对已有事物感到满足”并不是停滞不前，而是一个向外拓展的稳固起点。作为兼具生物性、心理性乃至精神性的存在，渴望更多是人类的天性；但唯有先充分品味当下所拥有的，我们才能获得源源不断的能量去追求更高远的目标，形成一个不断向上的“正向螺旋”（upward spiral）。休伯曼提醒大家，既要对自己足够温和、循序渐进地引导自己前行，也要在关键时刻“揪住自己的后颈皮”，告诉自己：“是时候行动了。”
---
### [03:30:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12624s) 心理治疗的本质与身心调节的边界
当斯蒂芬问及休伯曼是如何完成这种心态转变、是否有借助心理治疗时，休伯曼坦言，他最早接触心理治疗是因为青少年时期为了从少管所/收容机构（lockup）出来并继续留在高中，不得不接受定期的常规心理咨询。
休伯曼总结了有效心理治疗的核心标准，并厘清了生理调节与情绪面对的关系：
- **治疗的有效性在于促成行动**：心理治疗不能仅停留在“找个人倾听并获得支持”，更不能变成无休止沉溺于问题本身的“故事抚弄”（story fondling）。优秀的咨询必须能够带来洞见，并转化为“促使你成为更好的人”的具体行动。
- **生理调节不能替代深层心理功课**：休伯曼指出，虽然生理状态与情绪紧密相连（如睡眠不足时通过非睡眠深度休息 NSDR、晨光照射和运动可以显著改善状态），但他已经学会不再单纯依靠改变生理状态来掩盖真实的情绪与心理问题。正如药物可以辅助治疗心理健康问题一样，个体内在的心理成长与职业、生活建设依然需要通过脚踏实地的“做功课”来完成。
### [03:31:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12703s) 理智与情感的拉锯：“慈悲的观察者”与身体导航法
在探讨如何建立关系与自我提升时，安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）分享了作家兼人生导师玛莎·贝克（Martha Beck，拥有哈佛大学三项学位，兼具理性与灵性视角）教给他的一套极为实用的处世心法。休伯曼曾向她请教：当理智的大脑正在飞速分析预测、而内心情绪又翻江倒海时，究竟该依赖哪一边？玛莎·贝克形象地比喻道：想象你一只手里托着情绪，另一只手里托着思绪，两者正在激烈搏斗（“接下来会发生什么？他们会怎么做？”）。多数人面对这种内耗，往往会手忙脚乱地发短信、打电话、喝酒麻痹，试图强行平息这场争战。
真正的化解之道是抽离出来，退入被称为“慈悲的观察者”（compassionate observer）的第三立场。在这个位置上，你不再徒劳地试图压制情绪或强行理顺思绪，而是全然接纳当下的痛苦，静静与痛苦坐在一起（"sit with the suffering"）。休伯曼坦言，刚听到“与痛苦待在一起”时，本能反应是极度抗拒的，但贝克解释：当你退到这一立场，就可以把身体的感受当作导航仪——去觉察哪些念头会让你的身体感到松弛、舒展，哪些念头会让身体紧绷、收缩。藉由这种身体反馈，你可以审视当下的每一个微小行为：“我是真的想喝这杯咖啡，还是出于强迫性的焦虑？我真的想去锻炼吗？”这种看似带有灵修色彩（woo）的技巧，实际上精准契合了现代神经科学。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 慈悲的观察者与身心导航模型
accDescr: 展示理智与情绪发生冲突时，如何通过第三立场的慈悲观察者与身体反馈来做出当下决策。
subgraph Conflict ["内在冲突层"]
A["分析脑：思绪<br/>(DPO 历时/路径/结果分析)"]
B["边缘系统：情绪<br/>(无时间感知，如同退回童年)"]
A <-->|"左右拉锯 / 产生内耗与痛苦"| B
end
subgraph Observer ["超越层：第三立场"]
C["慈悲的观察者 (Compassionate Observer)<br/>接纳内耗，静处痛苦"]
end
subgraph Navigation ["身体导航与决策"]
D{"觉察身体信号"}
E["身体松弛舒展<br/>(符合真实本质)"]
F["身体紧绷收缩<br/>(强迫/消耗性反应)"]
G["做出未来 5 分钟的微小选择<br/>(小憩、进食、专注或静坐)"]
end
Conflict -.->|"抽离并观察"| C
C --> D
D --> E & F
E --> G
```
- **理智脑的机制**：大脑的分析回路负责休伯曼所称的“DPO 分析”（Duration, Path, Outcome，即时间跨度、路径与结果分析）。
- **边缘系统的特性**：精神科医生保罗·康蒂（Paul Conti）指出，情绪回路与边缘系统没有时间概念（“不认钟表和日历”）；哪怕是在 2024 年 7 月的当下，情绪受刺激时的反应模式可能依然像个 8 岁的孩子，它只知道你此刻的处境与原始感受。
---
### [03:34:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12847s) 五分钟微决策与找回“本质自我”
当一个人陷入情绪雪崩、思绪纷乱甚至彻夜难眠时，很容易陷入疯狂，在互联网上胡乱寻求刺激或依赖酗酒、刷手机来麻醉自己。休伯曼澄清，他本身并不排斥社交媒体，甚至热衷于在各大播客平台学习与分享（如雷克斯·弗里德曼、乔·罗根、蒂姆·费里斯等人的节目）；但他坚决反对那种麻木的过度消耗与自我麻痹。当你学会与痛苦和平共处，不再强迫自己受苦时，只需将注意力收拢到眼前：“接下来的 5 分钟，做什么感觉是对的？”无论那是一次小憩、一顿简餐、一点点工作，还是单纯静坐 5 分钟，只要走好这 5 分钟，接下来就能接连做出下一个正确选择，从而平稳脱困。
通过这种练习，人能逐渐回归玛莎·贝克所定义的“本质自我”（essential self）——即每个人独特的神经回路底层与真实的善良。身处“慈悲的观察者”这一状态中，人可以根据现实情境自由切换状态：需要捍卫原则时，可以成为一名凶悍的战士；需要共情时，可以展现极致的柔软与慈悲。以这种平静而坚定的能量面对世界，不仅内心强大，更能毫无索求地为他人提供巨大价值。
---
### [03:36:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12972s) 朋友的纯粹本质与坚不可摧的守护防线
谈到这种“全然临在且无所索求”的境界，休伯曼提到了自己的挚友、传奇音乐制作人里克·鲁宾（Rick Rubin）。休伯曼坦承自己对嘻哈音乐几乎一无所知（“认知是 0 减 1”），但他深爱里克这个人，因为无论何时何地，里克只要出现，就是百分之百的“完全临在”（super present）。他既不想从你这里索取任何东西，也无需刻意给予什么，但他的存在本身就是一种给予。
休伯曼谈到，如果有人公开攻击他自己，他可以毫不在意、任凭风吹浪打；但要是有人胆敢恶意针对他身边的至交好友——无论是里克·鲁宾、雷克斯·弗里德曼（Lex Fridman）、乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）还是他的姐姐——他身上凶猛决绝的一面就会彻底爆发：“我会出手反击，而且会狠狠反击（hit you hard）。”他直言记者曾多次打电话给他，设下圈套试图诱导他说乔·罗根的坏话，但他绝不会上当。因为他亲眼见过罗根在私下里默默行善、不求回报地关照身边与远方的他人，那绝非为了公关人设，而是出自发自内心的纯善。休伯曼强调，在这个时代，必须挺身而出保护那些全心服务世界的善良之人，不论他们是聚光灯下的公众人物，还是默默无闻的普通人。
- **媒体生态与创作初衷**：休伯曼并不全盘否定传统媒体，理解他们为了生存而制造耸动标题收割点击量；但他更崇尚那些源自纯粹本能的创作者。
- **滑板、朋克与艺术家精神**：他联想到早年结识的滑板圈朋友、朋克摇滚乐手、诗人和艺术家。这些人投身创作并非为了名利或讨人喜欢，甚至常常面对冷嘲热讽，他们坚持下去仅仅因为“那是他们生命的原色”（"It's who they are. It's their essence."）。
- **让·米歇尔·巴斯奎特（Jean-Michel Basquiat）**：休伯曼特别提及自己对已故艺术家巴斯奎特的喜爱，并推荐了由丹尼斯·霍珀（Dennis Hopper）等人出演的传记电影《轻狂岁月》（*Basquiat*），赞赏其即便冒着枪林弹雨也依然倾泻真实本色的创作纯粹性。
### [03:40:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13205s) 名声的陷阱与真正让人充实的要素
安德鲁·休伯曼谈到了传记电影《轻狂岁月》（*Basquiat*）中令人难忘的阵容——帕克·波西（Parker Posey）、饰演安迪·沃霍尔（Andy Warhol）的大卫·鲍伊（David Bowie）以及威廉·达福（Willem Dafoe）。片中有一幕极为震撼的对手戏：让·米歇尔·巴斯奎特问由本尼西奥·德尔·托罗（Benicio Del Toro）饰演的好友：“本尼，你觉得成名需要多久？”德尔·托罗随后给出了一段仅两分钟却入木三分的独白，阐述成名最终只会引来铺天盖地的攻击，并彻底摧毁一个艺术家的内心。休伯曼直言，任何想要成名的人都应该好好看看这段视频，“成名会剥夺你的自由”，那种聚光灯下的生活绝非人们想象的美好。
一个人在生活中真正需要的并非名气，而是彼此深爱的朋友、足以在当下和未来感到安全的物质资源、对世界的好奇与探索热情，以及能够免于攻击、做真实自我的自由。针对心理学界常被引用的“年薪达到7万美元幸福感就不再增加”的经典研究，休伯曼直截了当地予以反驳：安全感的数字因人而异，真实世界里说出这种理论的往往本身就是富人。休伯曼坦言，自己有时也会幻想彻底从公众视野消失，带着少数几个人搬到隐秘的村落，建造几栋房子、健身房、桑拿房和播客工作室度日；但他很清楚这只是幻想——一方面自己天生有与广阔世界连接的渴望，另一方面，外部世界很可能会把这种离群索居的行为直接扣上“搞邪教”的帽子。
对于网络上充满误解的舆论生态，休伯曼打了个比方：在生命的珊瑚礁与水族箱里，哪怕是那些专门写文章曲解事实的人，也像马蹄蟹一样构成了生态系统的一部分，起到了某种间接的制衡作用。在面对巨大的不确定性与选举周期时，与其把矛头对准媒体或播客主，不如认识到每个人都在用现有的资源竭尽全力，只是有些人努力表现得更加仁慈与包容，而有些人则沉溺于互相指责。
- **巴斯奎特电影桥段**：由本尼西奥·德尔·托罗生动演绎了名声如何引来攻击并击垮艺术家的灵魂。
- **幸福与安全的真正支柱**：
- 彼此深爱且相互信任的朋友圈。
- 足以保障当下与未来安全的物质储备（驳斥单一收入幸福门槛论）。
- 即使不为人知也依然保持的热情探索与好奇心。
- 做真实自我而不必承受围剿的自由度。
### [03:43:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13428s) 最重要的底层法则：友谊与“早安短信”
在休伯曼分享的所有健康与行为准则（Protocols）中，他认为排在最首要位置的其实是“友谊”。与其空谈现代社会的孤独危机与疏离感，不如践行最简单的行动方案：每天清晨发一条短信。找到一个彼此信任、能保持双向沟通的人，不需要每次都倾诉内心深处的所有秘密（休伯曼表示自己会把那些绝不示人的隐秘写进随身笔记本里），哪怕只是机械、稳定地互道一句问候：“早上好。”“昨晚睡得怎么样？”“还行 / 不太好。”“好的，回聊。”
这种互动就像每天太阳照常升起和落下一样精准可靠。在不可预测的世界里，知道每天都有一个稳定的存在可以依靠，会给神经系统带来莫大的安宁，并让人成为更好的自己。休伯曼强调，虽然伴侣关系与照顾孩子同样不可替代，养宠物或植物也能带来抚慰，但在当前环境下，友谊是每个人最触手可及、最能照亮内在美好的基石。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 友谊短信协议流程
accDescr: 展示休伯曼提出的每日早安短信如何构建情感稳定系统的闭环流程。
subgraph MorningRoutine ["晨间极简联络"]
A["清晨发送问候<br>（例如：早安 / 昨晚睡得好吗）"] --> B["简短双向反馈<br>（无需深入倾诉内心秘密）"]
end
subgraph PsychologicalEffect ["神经系统效应"]
B --> C["建立如日落日出般<br>可预测的信赖感"]
C --> D["平复焦虑与疏离感<br>构建长期内在安全感"]
end
D -.->|每日循环| A
```
### [03:45:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13518s) 跨越数十年的守护：滑板传奇吉姆·蒂博与一本救命的书
当被问及在经历人生风暴后是否向身边的朋友表达过感激时，休伯曼一度哽咽。他特别提到了滑板界的低调教父、如今执掌滑板分销巨头 Deluxe 的吉姆·蒂博（Jim Thiebaud）。两人的渊源始于休伯曼14岁那年，当时休伯曼刚从封闭式矫正机构出来，处于人生的低谷。比他大十岁左右的蒂博在旧金山内河码头（Embarcadero）滑板广场滑到他身边坐下，递给他一杯咖啡和几张贴纸，并送给他一本自己写的诗集《零钱》（*Loose Change*，蒂博后来还写过一本 *Do the Distance*），对他说了一句：“你应该试着写作。”
这句微不足道的鼓励让年少的休伯曼开始写日记，伴随他度过了无数黑暗岁月。几十年后，休伯曼在成年阶段遭遇了另一次毁灭性的人生危机，原本向好的一切骤然崩塌。蒂博得知消息后再次像奇迹一般赶到他身边，什么也没多说，只是静静地坐在他身旁陪伴。如今几十年过去，两人依然每天清晨互发短信问候。尽管蒂博总是自嘲当年写的诗有多糟糕，但对休伯曼而言，那份在危难时递过来的关怀“切实拯救了他的生命”。
休伯曼还向蒂博在滑板文化发展中的贡献致敬。滑板界见证了太多伙伴入狱、离世或走向巅峰的极端命运，而蒂博在幕后推动了滑板运动打破保守偏见，真正做到了对不同种族、不同性取向与跨性别群体、有家庭或孤儿背景的孩子一视同仁，并在圈内积极推行相互支持的戒瘾文化，展现了非凡的包容力与人道关怀。
- **关键人物**：吉姆·蒂博（Jim Thiebaud），滑板界元老，Deluxe 公司主理人。
- **转折地点**：旧金山内河码头（Embarcadero）。
- **赠予书籍**：蒂博自著诗集《零钱》（*Loose Change*）与《坚持到底》（*Do the Distance*）。
- **持久习惯**：14岁时在蒂博鼓励下开启的日记习惯，以及延续数十年的每日晨间问候短信。
### [03:48:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13730s) 默默坚守的领导力与向朋友表达爱意
安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）继续谈及好友吉姆（Jim）。吉姆多年来为了滑板运动的发展在公众舆论面前默默承受了巨大的委屈与指责（"taken so much publicly on the chin"），始终保持沉默，不为自己辩解。他的唯一宗旨与使命，就是以最健康、最具包容性的方式推动这项运动向前发展，让那些无法融入传统体育项目的边缘孩子们能有一席之地，同时也致力于推动滑板成为奥运会项目。休伯曼强调，这不仅仅是关于滑板运动本身，更是关于吉姆这个人对自身使命与责任的清醒认知。尽管吉姆曾是一名职业滑手，但他意识到自己为滑板社群贡献力量的最佳方式不是在聚光灯下，而是做一个低调且沉静的领导者（"He leads quietly"）。
对于这样的朋友，休伯曼坦言对方根本不可能知道自己有多感激他们，寄任何感谢卡片都无法承载这份深情。休伯曼能做的就是每天早晨发消息问候，见面时送上一个大大的拥抱。休伯曼联想到网上一位举着标语牌搞笑走红的博主（Dude with Sign）写的一句话：“把对朋友说‘我爱你’常态化”（"normalizing telling your friends you love them"）。他认为这主要是对男性而言的。休伯曼表示自己从不吝于对男性朋友表达爱意，他会直接告诉朋友“我爱你”。因为在人生中，他曾有过因为没有及时表达爱意而再也没能见到某个朋友的惨痛遗憾。这并不是无谓的感伤，而是在安全且恰当的边界内，尽可能“敞开心扉生活”（"living your life with as much heart forward"）。
- 吉姆面对外界争议保持沉默，唯一目标是让滑板运动更具包容性，并成功将其推上奥运舞台。
- 休伯曼表达感激的方式很日常：每天清晨发信息问候，见面时热情相拥。
- 提倡男性朋友之间打破情感隔阂，坦荡地互道“我爱你”，避免留下“未及告白便永别”的人生遗憾。
---
### [03:50:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13850s) 陪伴的力量：在泥泞中同坐与无结构的时间
主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）指出，人们往往误以为朋友的职责是在危机时跳出来出谋划策、解决问题，但休伯曼刚才形容吉姆的举动却是“他就只是坐在我身旁”（"He just sat with me"）。这触动了休伯曼心底关于悲伤与陪伴的深层记忆。他回忆起自己的研究生导师芭芭拉·查普曼（Barbara Chapman）不幸去世时的场景。当时休伯曼悲痛欲绝，在旧金山的花房（House of Flowers）追思会上致悼词时甚至当着所有学术同行的面失声痛哭、难掩悲伤。
随后，查普曼的两个年幼女儿上台发言（大女儿当时约12岁，后来成为神经科学家的小女儿当时才9岁左右）。全场原本都在紧张屏息，等待听到催泪的悲伤故事，但两个坚强的小女孩却说了一句震撼全场的话：“我们妈妈身上最棒的一点，就是她陪我们度过了很多‘无结构的时间’（unstructured time）。”说完她们就坐下了。休伯曼感叹，在经历的所有棒球赛和外出游玩中，孩子们铭记最深、视作最珍贵的，仅仅是母亲毫无功利目的地单纯陪伴着她们。休伯曼与巴特利特共同指出，真正的朋友也是如此；西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）曾对巴特利特说过，在最糟糕的至暗时刻，你需要的不是别人为你做什么，而是需要有人“陪你一起坐在烂泥里”（"sit in the mud with you"）。知晓有人愿意在烂泥中陪伴你，这种陪伴本身就具有治愈的药效。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 真正陪伴的核心逻辑
accDescr: 展示遇到危机时从传统的解决问题思维向情感共存与无结构时间陪伴的转变
subgraph ProblemSolving["传统的应对模式"]
A["朋友遭遇至暗危机"] --> B["试图立刻分析问题"]
B --> C["急于提出解决方案与行动"]
end
subgraph DeepPresence["真正具有治愈力的陪伴"]
D["遭遇困境与创伤"] --> E["放下目的与说教"]
E --> F["提供无结构时间（Unstructured Time）"]
F --> G["共同坐在泥泞中（Sit in the Mud）"]
end
```
- 芭芭拉·查普曼的两个女儿（当时分别约12岁和9岁）在葬礼上指出母亲最伟大之处在于“给予大量无结构的时间”，其小女儿后来也成为了一名神经科学家。
- 人际支持的核心并不总是提供现成方案，而是展现情感上的物理与精神共存（“坐在泥泞中”）。
---
### [03:52:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13954s) 友谊的药效与接纳立体的真实人性
休伯曼提到莱恩·诺顿（Lane Norton）作为另一个例子。在社交媒体上，诺顿展现的形象非常硬核、棱角分明且犀利（"serrated edge guy"），但深入了解后会发现他内心极其善良温暖。他身上有一股凶猛的劲头，硬拉重量能达到其他人的两倍，但同时他对孩子们极度忠诚——即便因为女儿喜欢而把指甲涂成彩色招致网友嘲讽，他也毫不在意。休伯曼希望人们在网络上以及现实中观察他人时，能够穿透表面的“人设”（persona），往更深的一层去感知：当一个人表现得烦人或在政治话题上感到沮丧时，他底层究竟在表达什么？
休伯曼认为，所谓的“看见某人”（"I see you"）并不只是视觉上的目光对视，而是真正欣赏并接纳一个人复杂、多面性的特质。他提到巴特利特此前分享的伴侣关系经历：感情一帆风顺，随后遭遇包含羞耻与困惑的重大挑战，双方各自在自己的领域内沉淀反思、完成自我成长，再重新走到一起分享与连接。休伯曼称赞这就是真正的“亲密关系”（real intimacy），而这种亲密需要承担健康的风险。休伯曼坦言自己不是心理学家，自己也有很多需要持续修补与改进的盲区，但他绝不会放弃努力。
- 真正的“看见对方”是跨越社交媒体的人设标签，理解并包容对方复杂多维的情感与动机。
- 真正的亲密关系不是没有冲突，而是在经历挫折与各自反思后，愿意承担脆弱与风险，重新相聚并共同成长。
---
### [03:55:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=14100s) 生命的真正意义与存在的终极目的
节目进入传统结语环节：上一位匿名嘉宾为休伯曼留下的手写问题是——“你生命的真正意义是什么？你为何而存在？”（"What is the true meaning of your life? Why do you exist?"）休伯曼停顿沉思后表示，自己所拥有的全部不过是个人经历、从经历中提炼出的知识以及传递这些知识的语言。对他而言，当下的生命意义就是在既有条件下做出最佳选择去探索、学习和分享，提供有价值的信息与工具，帮助人们成为对自己和他人而言更好的版本。
休伯曼谈到，他每天清晨醒来都在思考今天能学到什么新鲜事物，一旦发掘出科学或生活上的“宝藏知识”，他就会有一种近乎强迫症般的冲动想告诉所有人。这种分享并非为了自我虚荣，而是发自内心地认为“这能切实帮到别人”（"This can potentially really, really help"）。休伯曼补充道，在未来的生命阶段，他存在的意义可能会转变为照顾家庭与“小休伯曼们”（即未来的孩子）；他也彻底粉碎了关于他将从政的网络谣言，明确表示自己绝不会步入政坛，因为那完全违背他的天性。他的生命内核永远属于求知、冒险与分享。巴特利特随后深情向休伯曼致谢，称尽管此前在互联网上熟知他的学术盛名，但今天长达数小时的促膝长谈真正照亮了休伯曼作为一个完整、真实的人的内心世界。
- **休伯曼当下的人生宗旨**：在信息探索中获取新知，并强迫性地将实用工具免费分享给大众以改善他人生活。
- **未来的人生重心展望**：可能在未来五年转向建立家庭并养育后代（"care for little Hubermans"）。
- **正面辟谣政治传闻**：坚决否认将参与政治，直言从政与自身天性完全相悖，自己的人生唯一追求是求知、探索冒险与传道解惑。
### [03:57:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=14275s) 跨越屏幕的启发：史蒂文与团队的由衷感谢与新书预告
对谈接近尾声，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向安德鲁·休伯曼（Andrew Huberman）表达了极其真挚的感激之情。史蒂文坦言，正是休伯曼纯粹而美好的初衷，在很大程度上孕育并推动了《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）这档播客的发展。史蒂文不仅自己经常从休伯曼的节目中汲取营养与灵感，甚至多次邀请曾做客休伯曼节目的嘉宾前来，这些内容切切实实改变了他的个人生活与认知体系。休伯曼不仅是史蒂文个人成长的巨大推动力，也间接塑造了整档节目的灵魂。
史蒂文特别提到，背后默默支持节目的 30 到 40 名团队成员全都是休伯曼的狂热拥趸。正是因为休伯曼的存在，将极其晦涩复杂的尖端科学知识精炼分解，毫无保留地以通俗易懂的方式分享给大众，才让许多普通人的生活品质得到了实实在在的提升。
史蒂文还格外兴奋地推介了休伯曼即将出版的重磅新书《Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body》（人体使用协议手册，定于 2025 年 4 月 22 日上市）。史蒂文直言自己平时很少为新书感到兴奋，但休伯曼的这部作品对他而言是绝对必读的“圣经级”存在。他私下甚至一直在想方设法从休伯曼身边的工作人员那里提前打探书中的片段内容。史蒂文感慨，休伯曼如今已经拥有如此巨大的影响力与听众群体，原本完全没有必要耗费巨大心力伏案写作、去为公众做如此精细的提炼梳理，因此能写出这样一本书，对所有人来说都是一份珍贵的礼物。
- 团队影响：史蒂文幕后 30 至 40 人的制作团队全员受益于休伯曼对复杂科学的通俗化科普。
- 新书信息：休伯曼的力作《Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body》已开放预售，正式发售日期为 2025 年 4 月 22 日。
### [03:59:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=14387s) 始于科学而归于真诚：双向奔赴的共鸣与友谊的萌芽
面对史蒂文发自肺腑的赞赏，休伯曼深受触动，并给予了极其热烈的回馈。休伯曼表示，史蒂文在诸多商业领域早已功成名就，本无需再亲自做播客，但他选择通过播客给世界带去巨大的价值，其迅猛上升的势头宛如“直指烈阳”（pointed at the sun）。
休伯曼坦言，自己踏进录音棚前，原本以为这只是一场围绕具体神经科学机制和健康协议（protocols）展开的常规技术性长谈，未曾料到两人的对话会触及如此深刻的情感与灵魂底色。他由衷感叹道：“这完全归功于你的真实，以及你在这种对话中所带来的真切同理心，那是能够被清晰感知到的。”休伯曼尤其欣赏史蒂文在交流中坦诚分享自身经历的姿态，认为史蒂文对人性的关怀正是其取得非凡成就的核心根源；而史蒂文勇敢遵循内心天性、坚决不走传统寻常路的魄力，更为大众树立了极具感染力的榜样。
在轻松而温馨的气氛中，休伯曼主动提议两人一定要成为生活中的朋友：“你应该把电话号码留给我，明早我们可以互通问候，后面一起去吃顿便饭、一起健身，或者随便待着聚聚。”随着两人相视一笑，确认彼此间已然缔结下真正的友谊，这场历时四个多小时、兼具硬核生理学洞察与温情生命反思的深度对话圆满落下帷幕。
## Notable quotes
> [02:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=161s) beauty and utility of biology — Andrew Huberman
> [01:05:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=3953s) Competition can bring out more energy, but not more creativity. — Andrew Huberman
> [01:36:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=5808s) 认清自己在未来四到五年内能够持续承受的工作负荷 — Bob Knight
> [01:48:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6497s) 皮质醇非常棒，你不可或缺。 — Andrew Huberman
> [01:51:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6698s) 最核心的原则是在你能坚持的时间去练。 — Andrew Huberman
> [01:53:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=6815s) a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure — Andrew Huberman
> [02:36:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=9397s) 想练好俯卧撑，就必须亲自做俯卧撑 — Andrew Huberman
> [02:51:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10261s) People with interests are interesting — Andrew Huberman
> [02:56:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=10596s) 他们来到我家，坐在我身边，把我拉了起来，提醒我究竟是谁。 — Andrew Huberman
> [03:14:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=11667s) 即使一段关系早已脑死亡，也坚决拒绝宣布死亡时间 — Andrew Huberman
> [03:21:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=12106s) 亲密关系就是一座监狱 — Steven Bartlett
> [03:40:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13205s) 成名会剥夺你的自由 — Andrew Huberman
> [03:50:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0&t=13850s) 我们妈妈身上最棒的一点，就是她陪我们度过了很多‘无结构的时间’ — Barbara Chapman 的女儿
## Mentioned
Andrew Huberman, Steven Bartlett, The Diary Of A CEO, Huberman Lab, Lex Fridman, Danny Way, Colin McKay, Tony Hawk, DC Shoes, Mike Mentzer, Dorian Yates, Bob Dylan, Rancid, Operation Ivy, Rob Moore, Francis Ngannou, Jake Rosenberg, Mike Carroll, Henry Sanchez, Marc Gonzales, Plan B, Waiting for Lightning, Mike Blabac, Barbara Chapman, Thrasher, Martha Beck, Michael Muller, Oliver Sacks, Ryan Holiday, Ben Reese, David Hubel, Torsten Wiesel, Michael Merzenich, Rick Rubin, Salk Institute, Ben Barres, Byron Katie, Emily Balcetis, Peter Thiel, Zero to One, Joe Rogan, Chris Williamson, Kyle Gillette, Anna Lembke, Dopamine Nation, David Goggins, Jocko Willink, Bob Knight, Matt Walker, Layne Norton, Paul Saladino, Jordan Peterson, Paul Conti, Karl Deisseroth, Wendy Suzuki, Rena Malik, Jonathan Haidt, The Anxious Generation, PerfectTed, Ozempic, Mounjaro, Wall Street (电影), Costello, Jean-Michel Basquiat, Basquiat, Benicio Del Toro, Jim Thiebaud, Loose Change, Simon Sinek, Protocols: An Operating Manual for the Human Body, Instagram
## Video description
Andrew Huberman is a professor of neurobiology and ophthalmology at the Stanford University School of Medicine and host of the health and science podcast, ‘Huberman Lab’.
00:00 Intro
02:41 What Is Your Mission In Life?
05:55 How Andrew Huberman Became The Expert We Know Today
29:06 Unlocking High Performance By Loving What You Do
34:17 The Powerful Letter I Sent To My Parents
38:35 What It Takes To Make A Big Life Change
42:07 Neuroplasticity: How To Change Your Brain At Any Age
51:20 How To Break A Bad Habit For Good
01:00:44 Does Manifesting Actually Work?
01:08:06 Can Competition Be Destructive To Your Growth?
01:14:19 Understanding The Dopamine Loops In The Brain
01:20:13 How Our Body’s Dynamic Systems Help Us Overcome Challenges
01:26:09 Why More Is Not Always Better
01:32:20 How To Raise Your Baseline Dopamine Levels
01:33:33 Introverts vs Extroverts: Managing Your Energy Levels
01:40:26 Replenish Your Energy
01:46:34 The Importance Of Morning Sunlight For Your Health
01:49:42 The Hidden Dangers Of Shift Work
01:53:59 Understanding Food Addiction: Causes And Solutions
02:07:02 Sleeping Patterns: Biology vs Bad Habits
02:17:24 How Extreme Temperature Changes Affect Your Body
02:20:59 Ads
02:21:59 The Link Between P*rnography And Dopamine
02:36:37 What’s The Best Alternative To P*rnography?
02:42:58 The Surprising Link Between Fulfilment & P*rnography Addiction
02:49:04 Why Social Interactions Are Crucial For Mental Health
03:00:51 How To Handle False Accusations
03:10:13 How I Felt Through The Whole Process
03:14:30 Why It’s Hard To Let Go And How To Overcome It
03:30:24 I Was Forced Into Therapy
03:45:18 Did You Thank Your Friends For Their Support?
03:50:50 Lessons A 12 And 9-Year-Old Taught Me
03:52:34 The Medicinal Effect Of Friendship
03:55:59 What Is The True Meaning Of Life & Why Do You Exist?
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[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jSqCL7Npln0)
Source quotes
[2:41] Andrew Huberman: beauty and utility of biology
[65:53] Andrew Huberman: Competition can bring out more energy, but not more creativity.
[96:48] Bob Knight: 认清自己在未来四到五年内能够持续承受的工作负荷
[108:17] Andrew Huberman: 皮质醇非常棒，你不可或缺。
[111:38] Andrew Huberman: 最核心的原则是在你能坚持的时间去练。
[113:35] Andrew Huberman: a progressive narrowing of the things that bring you pleasure
[156:37] Andrew Huberman: 想练好俯卧撑，就必须亲自做俯卧撑
[171:01] Andrew Huberman: People with interests are interesting
[176:36] Andrew Huberman: 他们来到我家，坐在我身边，把我拉了起来，提醒我究竟是谁。
[194:27] Andrew Huberman: 即使一段关系早已脑死亡，也坚决拒绝宣布死亡时间
[201:46] Steven Bartlett: 亲密关系就是一座监狱
[220:05] Andrew Huberman: 成名会剥夺你的自由
[230:50] Barbara Chapman 的女儿: 我们妈妈身上最棒的一点，就是她陪我们度过了很多‘无结构的时间’
Source quotes
[0:00] Andrew Huberman: things were going well in my life and then one day just crack, everything came crashing down.
[2:41] Andrew Huberman: to share the beauty and utility of biology
[34:17] Andrew Huberman: I basically was parenting myself. And I think that this is something that I learned how to do early on. I love my parents, but I learned how to mother and father myself. And that was powerful.
[41:20] Andrew Huberman: If you want to learn, you can learn. And that learning occurs through neuroplasticity, which is the reordering of neural connections, strengthening of certain connections, weakening of others, and in some rare cases the addition of new neurons, but brain change is absolutely real at every stage of life.
[77:24] Andrew Huberman: Most all addiction, most all compulsive behavior can be cured, essentially, through a period of abstinence lasting somewhere between 30 and 60 days, which to somebody who's highly motivated to seek that thing or do that thing, sounds like an absolute horror. But that is highly effective.
[86:09] Andrew Huberman: We have this fixation that more is better, and more is not better. You want the minimal effective dose, maybe a little bit more, because we don't know where minimal is.
[150:05] Andrew Huberman: any substance or behavior that causes massive spikes in dopamine without prior effort is fundamentally problematic.
[154:03] Steven Bartlett: I just can't find a net positive of pornography. I can't find one. Especially as it relates to my relationship with my partner... Do I think that me watching pornography... is going to help my performance in the bedroom? Absolutely not.
[175:41] Andrew Huberman: people with interests are interesting
[210:50] Andrew Huberman: story fondling
[216:25] Andrew Huberman: Come at me, attack me all day, and you people do. But if you try and attack people I know in their true goodness, Lex or Rick or any number of my different friends... that's when a side of me comes out that frankly I'm proud of. I'm going to hit you, and I'm going to hit you hard.
[220:15] Andrew Huberman: Fame takes away your freedom. People say they want to be famous... you absolutely don't.
[223:00] Andrew Huberman: horseshoe crabs working on the coral reef of life
[235:00] Andrew Huberman: There's no chance I'm going to politics. It runs countercurrent to my nature.
Original transcript
[0:00] I'll tear up if I talk about it, because
[0:02] things were going well in my life and
[0:03] then one day just crack,
[0:06] everything came crashing down.
[0:09] And um
[0:13] and I've learned that friendship is
[0:14] super powerful. I had people descending
[0:17] on my home to be with me. You know, one
[0:19] day I just like look up and Lex is in
[0:21] the room. And they sat with me, picked
[0:23] me up and they reminded me who I am
[0:27] and um
[0:30] you know, I I've just such immense
[0:31] gratitude for that.
[0:37] Dr. Andrew Huberman is a world-renowned
[0:39] neuroscientist, Stanford professor, and
[0:41] podcaster.
[0:42] Revolutionizing how we understand the
[0:44] brain
[0:44] and how we can adopt change, break bad
[0:46] habits, and achieve peak performance.
[0:49] Growing up, I was scared, depressed, and
[0:51] confused. My parents split up, I was
[0:53] getting in multiple fights, found myself
[0:55] locked up in this residential treatment
[0:57] program, and I realized that I need to
[0:59] take control of my life. I'm so
[1:00] intrigued by that because so many people
[1:02] feel stuck in their lives. So, how does
[1:04] someone even make those life-changing
[1:05] decisions? Well, there are so many
[1:07] zero-cost tools that can change your
[1:09] brain. We can go through all of them.
[1:11] So, I want to talk about dopamine and
[1:13] this graph.
[1:14] The dopamine is kind of like a wave
[1:15] pool. In every domain of life, whether
[1:18] or not it's food, exercise, for some
[1:19] people it's work or sex, if you push
[1:22] things to the max, you're going to feel
[1:24] depleted and understimulated afterwards
[1:27] and you need so much more energy to get
[1:29] the same output. And when you're in that
[1:31] dopamine-depleted state, typically what
[1:32] people do is they try and access things
[1:35] that are going to reactivate the
[1:37] dopamine circuitry and all it does is
[1:38] drive them further and further into that
[1:41] trough.
[1:41] So, how do you fix that? So, it's hard
[1:43] to exit, but start with
[1:48] This is a sentence I never thought I'd
[1:50] say in my life. Um we've just hit 7
[1:52] million subscribers on YouTube and I
[1:53] want to say a huge thank you to all of
[1:55] you that show up here every Monday and
[1:57] Thursday to watch our conversations. Um
[2:00] From the bottom of my heart, but also on
[2:02] behalf of my team, who you don't always
[2:03] get to meet. There's almost 50 people
[2:05] now behind The Diary of a CEO that work
[2:07] to put this together. So, from all of
[2:09] us, thank you so much. Um we did a
[2:11] raffle last month and we gave away
[2:13] prizes for people that subscribed to the
[2:14] show up until 7 million subscribers and
[2:16] you guys loved that raffle so much that
[2:18] we're going to continue it. So, every
[2:20] single month we're giving away
[2:22] money-can't-buy prizes including
[2:23] meetings with me, invites to our events,
[2:25] and 1,000 lb gift vouchers to anyone
[2:28] that subscribes to The Diary of a CEO.
[2:30] There's now more than 7 million of you.
[2:31] So, if you make the decision to
[2:32] subscribe today, you can be one of those
[2:34] lucky people. Thank you from the bottom
[2:35] of my heart. Let's get to the
[2:37] conversation.
[2:41] Andrew, at the very heart of what you
[2:43] do, at the very, very high. If I If I
[2:45] look to all that you've produced and I
[2:47] had to encapsulate it into just
[2:50] one or two sentences that encapsulates
[2:52] your mission statement, what would that
[2:54] be?
[2:55] I want to share the beauty and utility
[2:59] biology. I want people to understand how
[3:01] incredible the human body and brain are
[3:06] and how even a small understanding of
[3:09] the underlying mechanisms about how we
[3:12] interact with light or temperature,
[3:14] exercise,
[3:15] thoughts, emotions, etc., how that can
[3:18] impact our health in really powerful
[3:20] ways. You have become a cultural
[3:22] phenomenon because of the
[3:24] information that you've shared.
[3:27] In your view, why and how is that
[3:29] happened? I I guess maybe most
[3:30] importantly, why has that happened? What
[3:31] is it that you've kind of catered to
[3:33] that was absent in people's
[3:35] understanding of themselves?
[3:37] Well, I think
[3:39] people are intensely curious about
[3:42] themselves, meaning our species, why we
[3:45] feel the way we feel, why other people
[3:47] feel and act the way they do, and I
[3:49] think most everybody, I like to think,
[3:52] is deeply interested in how to be the
[3:54] best version of themselves and I think
[3:56] what I've done is I've provided a lens
[3:59] into all of that through biology,
[4:03] through neuroscience in particular,
[4:05] but also I'm a practitioner. So, since I
[4:09] was pretty young, I've been actively
[4:10] involved in sports and psychology and
[4:14] interested in
[4:16] what one can do, in some cases take,
[4:19] things to avoid in order to be the best
[4:22] version of oneself. And so, um
[4:26] I'm an academic, right? I
[4:28] have a laboratory and I'm a tenured
[4:30] faculty member at Stanford. Although, I
[4:32] should mention that I've shrunk my
[4:33] laboratory considerably in the last year
[4:35] or so, but I've done experiments on
[4:37] animal models, on humans and human
[4:40] clinical trials. So, I have the
[4:41] understanding and expertise of a of a
[4:43] research scientist.
[4:45] And at the same time, I think very
[4:48] deeply about
[4:49] how to translate the information in
[4:51] these peer-reviewed papers, how to
[4:53] translate the information in the fields
[4:56] of science and medicine into actionable,
[4:57] what we call protocols. And my best to
[5:01] um distill things down into
[5:03] uh you know, actionable things,
[5:06] um
[5:06] but I'm not a big believer in dumbing
[5:08] things down. I decided to go the
[5:10] opposite way. Rather than give little
[5:11] snippets, um 90-second videos, we
[5:13] include those, but rather I decided to
[5:16] go for full one-to-three-hour, maybe
[5:18] even four-hour lectures on a topic
[5:20] because I believe, and I'm not the first
[5:21] to say it, that people have um near
[5:24] infinite ability to learn if they are
[5:27] told things in a way that's clear. So, I
[5:29] believe that people want to understand,
[5:31] they can understand, and it doesn't
[5:33] require decorating things in a lot of
[5:36] complicated language. Sometimes we need
[5:37] to include some complicated language
[5:39] just because that's the way science and
[5:41] medicine are, and that people are
[5:43] willing to learn that and carry that
[5:45] along and once they understand how they
[5:47] work a little bit better, you arm them
[5:48] with a little bit of knowledge, then
[5:51] really they're just off to the races and
[5:52] the the rest takes care of itself. I may
[5:55] a couple of times today just ask you to
[5:57] explain something to me in more simple
[5:59] terms because I don't have fundamental
[6:01] understanding of of science. So,
[6:03] um
[6:04] much of my objective is just to if if is
[6:06] just to be completely honest if I don't
[6:08] understand something because I'm sure
[6:09] there's a lot of people listening that
[6:10] also probably don't understand
[6:11] something. One of the things that was
[6:13] most surprising to me about you was
[6:18] your background.
[6:19] And I think
[6:20] the interesting thing about your
[6:22] background and where you came from and
[6:24] the the struggles you faced and
[6:26] in contrast to the man that sits in
[6:28] front of me today is it I think it
[6:30] speaks to one of the fundamental
[6:32] points of curiosity that I have about
[6:34] your work, which is it's all well and
[6:36] good knowing protocols,
[6:38] but
[6:39] there's something else required to be
[6:41] able to pursue them.
[6:43] Now, people say that this is discipline
[6:45] or motivation or whatever it might be,
[6:47] but when I looked at your background and
[6:48] where you've come from, it wasn't a
[6:50] straight line.
[6:52] There's no There's an element of
[6:53] transformation that's gone on there.
[6:54] There's There's almost
[6:57] the early Andrew Huberman, who I would
[6:59] never would have guessed would have been
[7:00] the man that is is almost unrecognizable
[7:02] from the man sitting in front of me
[7:03] today, and then there's the man sitting
[7:05] in front of me today.
[7:06] And the reason I'm so fascinated by that
[7:08] is because if I can understand how you
[7:09] went from
[7:10] that Andrew Huberman to this one, it
[7:13] gives me it liberates me from the
[7:15] excuses that I won't be able to pursue
[7:16] your protocols now.
[7:18] Yeah, well certainly there's been a lot
[7:20] of
[7:21] adventure and transformation, certainly
[7:24] some hardship. Listen, I I'll be the
[7:25] first to say, you know, my life has been
[7:28] easier than it has been for others and
[7:30] harder than it has been for others,
[7:31] right? So, I'm not trying to plant a
[7:32] flag as having had the hardest or the
[7:34] easiest life. I only know
[7:36] um
[7:37] what's my experience, right? So, all
[7:39] I've got is my experience, my knowledge,
[7:41] and my words uh to convey that. But
[7:44] yeah, it was not a linear path. I would
[7:46] say the kind of key milestones along the
[7:49] way and the the the relevant pieces are
[7:53] for as long as I can remember, I've
[7:55] always had an intense curiosity and an
[7:57] intense desire for adventure. Um so, I
[8:00] want to learn and I want to learn
[8:01] first-hand.
[8:03] I also suppose I've always had an
[8:05] intensity. Like I I've um been told
[8:08] since I was a young kid, you know, I I
[8:09] sort of like forward-leaning a little
[8:11] bit. Uh you know, forward center of
[8:12] mass, so to speak.
[8:14] Um But yeah, my childhood on the one
[8:17] hand was very conventional and and very
[8:19] sweet in the sense that, you know, I had
[8:21] two parents. My dad's actually a
[8:22] scientist. He's a theoretical physicist
[8:24] by training. He's Argentine, uh but then
[8:26] did his graduate training in the United
[8:28] States. My mother's uh a writer and she
[8:30] was a teacher. She didn't work a whole
[8:31] lot when we were kids. She was mostly
[8:32] focused on raising us. And my childhood,
[8:35] to my memory, was marked by, you know,
[8:37] dinners together at the table. I was
[8:39] very, very interested in all things
[8:40] biology, in particular fish. So, all
[8:43] things aquaria, birds, anything that,
[8:45] you know, tropical birds. I I would
[8:47] learn all about them, learn about fish.
[8:49] I would then lecture about these things
[8:51] in class on Monday as a way to try the
[8:54] teachers to try and get me to not talk
[8:56] to students around me because I'd be
[8:57] telling them about it otherwise. So,
[8:59] I've been giving little lectures since I
[9:00] was a kid. And
[9:02] and then I suppose
[9:04] as I matured, um so to speak, um
[9:07] you know, around adolescence, my parents
[9:10] split up. It was a very high-conflict
[9:11] divorce. Um and that sent me uh in the
[9:15] direction of more kind of a wilder
[9:18] foraging, and let's call it that. I was
[9:19] a bit feral.
[9:20] Um just the the circumstance led to a
[9:24] situation where I was seeking out sports
[9:25] and friends for which there wasn't any
[9:28] parental involvement. So, for me, the
[9:30] immediate attraction was to
[9:31] skateboarding and punk rock culture. And
[9:33] so, I was very fortunate that I was
[9:35] drawn into skateboarding and punk rock
[9:37] culture in the late '80s, early '90s.
[9:39] I'm 49 now, or almost 49. And at that
[9:42] time, that was a very nascent culture.
[9:45] There was no X Games, there were no
[9:46] major sponsors, that sort of thing. And
[9:48] so, there were all these not parentless,
[9:50] but rather feral kids. Some were
[9:51] parentless. And I got to be exposed to
[9:54] some I'm skateboarding. And I was not a
[9:57] particularly good skateboarder, but I
[9:59] certainly had the drive to try and do
[10:01] it. I kept hurting myself. So, that was
[10:02] actually an important event. I kept, you
[10:05] know, hurting my body trying to push
[10:06] myself to get really good. Friends of
[10:08] mine were getting sponsored. Close
[10:09] friend of mine got picked up as a pro
[10:11] while we were in high school. We were
[10:13] traveling, going to contest. What you
[10:15] probably might have noticed is there
[10:16] wasn't a lot of attending school. So, I
[10:18] don't recommend this to young people.
[10:20] Stay in school. At least at the early
[10:21] stage, get that basic education while
[10:23] your brain is still hyperplastic. But,
[10:26] you know, I was exposed to and
[10:28] fortunately did not partake in a lot of
[10:30] drugs and violence, but I saw that. I
[10:32] also saw a lot of incredible
[10:33] skateboarding. Some of these people went
[10:34] on to
[10:36] um start huge companies and do
[10:38] incredible things in the realm of action
[10:40] sports. So, like DC. Um I know the guys
[10:43] that started that. Danny Way, Colin
[10:45] McKay. You know, I like I knew at that
[10:47] time um I knew of, I wasn't close with,
[10:50] but you know, Tony Hawk, watched his
[10:51] ascent, right? He was a few years ahead
[10:53] of me. Um but I would attend contest
[10:56] skating contest. So, I was in this world
[10:59] where it was all DIY. It was all
[11:00] self-created. Now, at some point, I got
[11:03] a girlfriend and um got into other
[11:05] things um
[11:07] and kind of left skateboarding. Um
[11:09] thought I might be a firefighter for a
[11:10] little while. I was always very
[11:11] physical. What age is this?
[11:13] Um so, I was 16 when I got my first
[11:16] girlfriend and um
[11:19] I wasn't doing well in skateboarding. I
[11:21] kept breaking my foot. Um people were
[11:23] moving on without me. That's just the
[11:25] nature of it. I was in love with her,
[11:27] wanted to spend time with her, and so I
[11:28] thought, "Well, I'm not really doing
[11:30] well in school. I'm not really attending
[11:32] school. I know I'll need to work and
[11:34] take care of us." You know, I was really
[11:35] thinking kind of like an adult at that
[11:36] point in terms of what I would do. And
[11:38] so, I thought I'd get into the fire
[11:39] service. So, I started trying to
[11:41] strengthen my body. I started doing
[11:43] resistance training. Keep in mind back
[11:45] then, the only people that lifted
[11:46] weights were, you know, preseason
[11:48] American football players, people going
[11:50] to the military, and bodybuilders. And I
[11:52] wasn't interested in any of those three
[11:54] things. But, I started doing resis-
[11:56] resistance training
[11:57] um and realized, "Wow, like this is a
[12:00] really powerful tool. I can make my body
[12:02] stronger through work." I could I
[12:04] couldn't do a single pull-up when I
[12:05] started. I was always pretty skinny. I,
[12:07] you know, shot up uh a full foot in
[12:10] height, but was very, very skinny, you
[12:12] know, at that point. And um
[12:15] within, you know, a summer I could do
[12:16] pull-ups. I could do these things. I
[12:17] thought, "Wow, like there's this
[12:19] remarkable relationship between doing
[12:21] physical effort and kind of ability or
[12:23] outcome." And then I also started
[12:25] running a lot. For whatever reason, I
[12:27] ran cross country my senior year of high
[12:29] school.
[12:30] And also there I felt like there was a
[12:32] direct relationship between effort and
[12:34] outcome. If I ran further, then the next
[12:36] time I could run even further. If my
[12:37] lungs burned on a hill run, well, then
[12:39] the next time I could do that hill
[12:40] without my lungs burning. Whereas in
[12:42] skateboarding, no matter how hard I
[12:43] seemed to try, I just couldn't match the
[12:46] level of effort with the outcome. So, it
[12:48] was from that point forward that you
[12:50] know, 16 years old forward that I made
[12:52] running and resistance training just
[12:54] part of my regular weekly schedule. Um
[12:57] what ended up happening was she went off
[12:59] to college.
[13:01] I ended up just basically living in my
[13:04] car or her dorm room
[13:06] while she was off at college. She was a
[13:08] year ahead of me. And I realized I
[13:10] wanted to be near her. So, eventually I
[13:11] applied to college and somehow got in.
[13:14] By the end of my freshman year, I had
[13:17] been getting in multiple fights. So, I
[13:19] was still had that kind of wildness from
[13:22] the world I was previously in. I was
[13:24] getting into physical altercations. I
[13:26] was never into drugs or alcohol. That
[13:28] was fortunate. I don't have a propensity
[13:31] to be addicted to those things. But, my
[13:33] life really wasn't in order. And it was
[13:35] really it was actually nearly 30 years
[13:37] ago to the day. It was
[13:39] July 4th, 1994. I went to a barbecue. I
[13:43] got into an altercation with a bunch of
[13:45] people that were robbing the house that
[13:48] we were at.
[13:49] Um
[13:50] and and by the way, there's sort of a
[13:51] little tangent side story. One of my um
[13:54] friends in college, we weren't super
[13:55] close, but my girlfriend at the time had
[13:58] lived with the now wife of Jack Johnson,
[14:01] the musician. So, Jack recalls that
[14:03] party. Uh we have other friends from
[14:05] that party. That was a kind of a a
[14:06] meaningful day for me because I got into
[14:09] this altercation. Everything turned out
[14:11] okay
[14:12] um in the sense that, you know, we got
[14:14] our belongings back. No one was badly
[14:16] hurt. But, I remember going back to the
[14:17] place where I was staying at that time
[14:18] and thinking to myself, "Okay, this is
[14:20] bad." Right? Um you know, like 19 years
[14:23] old.
[14:25] Or I guess it was just shy of of of 18.
[14:28] I am
[14:30] not doing well in school. My freshman
[14:33] year was a disaster where I went to
[14:35] college. I don't think I flunked out,
[14:37] but I it just wasn't really attending
[14:39] class. I wasn't doing well. I'm getting
[14:41] in physical altercations. I'm working at
[14:43] this little bagel shop delivering
[14:45] bagels. And there's nothing wrong with
[14:46] that, but it's not much of a future in
[14:48] it for me. Um I didn't end up going to
[14:51] the fire service. I didn't end up a
[14:52] professional athlete. I thought like,
[14:54] "What am I going to do with like what am
[14:55] I going to do?" Right? Because the story
[14:57] of whatever happened to me prior to that
[14:59] was kind of meaningless unless I made
[15:01] something of myself. So, that day I
[15:03] actually wrote myself and my parents a
[15:05] letter saying that I was going to turn
[15:07] my life around. And I actually still
[15:09] have this letter. My mother still has
[15:10] this letter. And what I decided to do
[15:12] was to take a leave of absence from
[15:14] university. I didn't drop out. A leave
[15:16] of absence allows you the option to go
[15:17] back. I moved home and I worked. So, I
[15:21] was a busboy at a little restaurant in
[15:23] town where I grew up. And I still
[15:26] continued to run and do resistance
[15:28] training, you know, three times a week
[15:29] each or so. And I went to community
[15:32] college, which is um
[15:34] typically where kids who can't afford to
[15:35] go to university or kids that just stay
[15:38] back for whatever reason. It's a
[15:40] wonderful aspect of the the um
[15:42] educational system in California still.
[15:45] And I made learning and filling my mind
[15:51] with formal, rigorous coursework-based
[15:53] knowledge my absolute mission. Now, I
[15:56] didn't care if I liked it. I just It's
[15:59] like, "I'm going to trust my ability to
[16:01] learn." Because I could tell you a lot
[16:02] about tropical fish, skateboarding, punk
[16:04] rock music, a fair amount about physical
[16:07] training at that point. I sought out the
[16:09] right people. This has always been
[16:10] something I've been good at is seeking
[16:12] out the right people with knowledge. So,
[16:13] I got great knowledge from the late Mike
[16:15] Mentzer, who had trained Dorian Yates.
[16:17] Um I was reading every book I could on
[16:20] physical fitness and rehabilitation,
[16:21] trying to get my body strong. Um never
[16:24] wanted to be big. You know, I was always
[16:26] interested in being strong and being
[16:27] able to run far and fast. That was
[16:29] always a goal, like a capability. I I've
[16:31] not been one of the um
[16:33] people to like really care about like
[16:35] hypertrophy. That wasn't something that
[16:37] mattered to me. If some came along as a
[16:39] consequence of training, great. But, it
[16:40] was more about a a capability to do
[16:42] things. So, at that point, I just became
[16:44] a voracious learner. I took every bit of
[16:47] energy that I had applied to these other
[16:48] areas and put them into learning math,
[16:54] science, art history, English,
[16:57] literature, whatever, you know,
[16:59] coursework was thrown at me. And then
[17:01] after a year of that, went back to
[17:02] university, lived alone in a studio
[17:05] apartment, and
[17:07] basically for the remaining portion of
[17:09] university, all I did was
[17:13] study, work out, hang out with my
[17:15] girlfriend,
[17:16] run, listen to
[17:19] at that time, like early '90s punk rock
[17:21] music, which is still a wonderful genre.
[17:23] So, mainly like Rancid, Operation Ivy,
[17:26] Bob Dylan, always love Bob Dylan,
[17:28] classical music when I study,
[17:30] and that was it. I didn't do anything
[17:33] else. And at that point, I started
[17:36] getting straight A's. People didn't
[17:37] recognize me. They were like, "Aren't
[17:39] you the guy from freshman year that was
[17:40] getting in all these fights?" I will
[17:42] admit that I wasn't um completely devoid
[17:44] of of uh the typical college um
[17:47] phenotype. Once a month, I would allow
[17:48] myself to go out to a party and I'd
[17:51] party once a month. But, stayed away
[17:53] from drugs, was never never my thing.
[17:56] And um so, drank, which, you know,
[17:58] eventually I realized wasn't my thing
[18:00] either. But, I was just completely
[18:03] committed. So, I graduated university
[18:06] with honors. I went to graduate school,
[18:08] did a master's up at UC Berkeley.
[18:11] Um then did my PhD, did my postdoc at
[18:13] Stanford, and then eventually got a
[18:14] laboratory um
[18:16] first at UC San Diego, excellent
[18:18] neuroscience program. Eventually was
[18:20] recruited to Stanford uh with tenure.
[18:23] And all along maintaining physical
[18:25] fitness in the background, focusing very
[18:27] heavily on doing primary research,
[18:29] meaning making discoveries in
[18:30] neuroscience, and publishing papers. And
[18:33] then in 2019,
[18:36] I decided to start posting science on
[18:38] Instagram. Just really nerdy stuff. Um
[18:42] no protocols, just telling people about
[18:43] sunlight and the relationship to the
[18:45] eye, dopamine, and ex- I just
[18:48] enjoyed talking about it just like I did
[18:49] when I was a little kid, telling people
[18:50] about tropical fish.
[18:52] And in 2020, my plan was to release a
[18:56] book. So, I got a guy, a PR guy. His
[19:00] name is Rob Moore. He's now a close
[19:02] friend of mine. And we're talking about
[19:04] how we would, you know, I don't know,
[19:06] maybe go on podcasts or do something of
[19:07] that sort when the book came out. And
[19:09] then the pandemic hit. And I said, "You
[19:11] know what? Let's pause the book." And he
[19:13] said, "Why don't you just maybe go on
[19:15] podcast?" So, that year, 2020, I went
[19:18] on, I think, somewhere between 20 and 30
[19:20] podcasts.
[19:21] No book, no website, no nothing. Just
[19:24] like talking science and delighted in
[19:26] that. And then January 2021,
[19:29] I got a little place um
[19:32] in a little uh kind of canyon region of
[19:35] Los Angeles, a little sabbatical-like uh
[19:38] retreat and um set up some cameras.
[19:41] I had my bulldog Costello there. Rob
[19:43] Moore became my podcast producer. And on
[19:45] January 1st, more or less, we launched
[19:49] the Huberman Lab podcast, where now I
[19:51] still just blab about stuff that I find
[19:55] interesting and that I think can be
[19:56] useful to people. So, that's the kind of
[19:59] that's the arc. And as I tell all this,
[20:01] I also just want to make sure that
[20:02] people know that
[20:04] it sounds like this magnificent arc, but
[20:07] along the way there were
[20:09] absolutely times when I thought, "Oh my
[20:11] like what am I going to do?" Like this
[20:12] is working, but this isn't working. And
[20:14] my life at times became very lopsided. I
[20:16] focused mainly on work and research. Um
[20:19] you know, I'm 49 years old. Now I've had
[20:21] some wonderful relationships across my
[20:23] life, but I opted to
[20:25] delay on marriage and family as a way to
[20:30] uh well, it wasn't the intention, but as
[20:31] a way to really just continue to pour my
[20:34] energy into the things that I was most
[20:36] passionate about. So, there's always
[20:38] sacrifice. There were you know, sadly
[20:40] I've lost a lot of friends along the way
[20:42] to some to drugs and alcohol, suicide,
[20:45] depression, and so on. Um others to just
[20:47] unfortunate consequences or age. But the
[20:51] um I think the major themes have been
[20:55] I just simply can't pull myself off a
[20:58] desire to learn and adventure through a
[21:00] particular space. And then once I learn
[21:02] things and as I learn things, I can't
[21:05] seem to help but just tell everybody
[21:07] about it. And you know, provided there's
[21:09] somebody there to listen, then I'm eager
[21:11] to share what what I learn.
[21:14] It's funny in life how some of the most
[21:16] traumatic things that happened to us.
[21:17] And trauma is such a subjective thing.
[21:19] So, what's trauma for me is not for
[21:21] Francis Ngannou, who I've heard his
[21:22] story and you know, walking out of
[21:24] Africa and jumping over barbed wire and
[21:26] walking across the Sahara desert. His is
[21:28] an amazing
[21:29] I just can't you know, it's like
[21:30] I hear he's a very nice guy.
[21:32] He's exceptionally nice. He's a
[21:33] wonderful individual. But I'm I'm really
[21:35] interested in how our traumatic
[21:36] experiences end up um
[21:39] dragging us in whatever shape in life.
[21:41] Dragging us or making us driven. That
[21:43] it's almost two sides of the same coin
[21:44] sometimes. But I just wanted to zoom
[21:46] back in on when you were younger. Um cuz
[21:48] I was reading about at 14, 15 years old,
[21:51] you were put into a residential
[21:53] treatment program.
[21:54] I was.
[21:55] So, one day in school and by the way, I
[21:58] wasn't in school much and if I was
[21:59] there, I was the kid with the hoodie on
[22:01] with his head on the table, you know,
[22:02] just kind of like sleeping or drawing or
[22:05] um I was not tuned in to what I should
[22:07] have been tuned into. Um I was looking
[22:10] back, I think I was depressed. I was
[22:12] sad. I was confused by the fracture of
[22:14] my family. And listen, um
[22:17] divorce and family reorganization can
[22:20] take place without all that. It
[22:22] unfortunately this was a very
[22:24] complicated situation.
[22:26] Um
[22:26] and maybe it was also puberty combined
[22:29] with general confusion about life. Um
[22:32] those things um combined to you know,
[22:35] put me in a state that I think looking
[22:36] back I was I was scared, depressed,
[22:39] and confused like a lot of young people
[22:42] happen to be at that age. So,
[22:45] a number of things happened. Um I was
[22:47] getting into trouble.
[22:48] I wasn't attending school. I was truant
[22:51] a lot.
[22:52] Um and
[22:54] yeah, one day they came to like get me.
[22:57] They basically called me into the
[22:58] office. I was sitting there
[23:00] um talking to school counselor. It
[23:02] wasn't my first time doing that. And
[23:04] then some other people showed up there
[23:05] and I started to realize like uh-oh, I
[23:07] think I know what this is. Um which was
[23:10] they were going to take me away. Um now,
[23:13] the exact stimulus for all this, whether
[23:15] or not a friend, I think I know who it
[23:16] was, had been concerned about me and had
[23:19] intervened or whether or not it was
[23:21] purely from the parent side isn't clear
[23:23] to me still. I have my theories and they
[23:24] have theirs.
[23:26] Um but in any event, I soon after found
[23:29] myself in a residential treatment
[23:31] program. And um
[23:33] it was interesting because
[23:35] it was the first time that I had ever
[23:37] had my freedom taken away from me. You
[23:39] know, that was an experience like doors
[23:41] go locked and you're like, "Whoa, you
[23:42] know, like my freedom's taken away."
[23:44] Well, you're locked you're locked in a
[23:46] treatment program basically. You know,
[23:48] these were all kids that were delinquent
[23:50] or had problems of various sorts. So,
[23:52] you're on a hallway with a bunch of
[23:54] other kids.
[23:55] Um
[23:56] you know, you're staying there at night.
[23:57] You're not leaving. You're not free to
[23:59] walk to leave. And they make you do
[24:01] group therapy. You have to do one-on-one
[24:02] therapy. Um you you have an hour to
[24:05] exercise outside. You're not leaving the
[24:08] the grounds. Yeah, this is a like a
[24:09] combination of like if you were to just
[24:11] sort of merge in your mind like youth
[24:13] detention and hospital, right? That's
[24:15] kind of the the the the unity of these.
[24:17] Now, kids there and they and we were
[24:19] kids, right? Um and there was a there
[24:21] was a unit of much younger kids. And
[24:24] there was a unit of people much older
[24:27] than us. And I'll never forget what they
[24:28] said.
[24:29] One of the counselors there said to us,
[24:31] "Listen, the kids over there, the
[24:33] younger ones,
[24:35] and the adults over there,
[24:38] they're crazy. You guys, you're not
[24:41] crazy. You just have problems." And I'll
[24:44] never forget one of the kids that was in
[24:45] there with me goes, "Yeah, but that's
[24:47] exactly what they're telling the people
[24:48] in the other two in the other two
[24:50] units." So, pretty quickly I realized
[24:52] like this place is is problematic. And I
[24:54] was scared. I I won't forget like my my
[24:57] roommate, who turned out to be a very
[24:58] kind person, but he looked like Richard
[25:01] Ramirez, the Night Stalker. And he had a
[25:03] cutting problem.
[25:05] And he was like a scary looking guy, but
[25:09] as I got to know him,
[25:10] I realized that he um
[25:12] was just a a
[25:14] kid with a lot of problems. Different
[25:15] than mine, but a lot of problems.
[25:17] So, you're in there with kids with
[25:20] severe drug issues, with um
[25:22] some were suicidal, some weren't, some
[25:24] had aggression issues. Um it was a coed
[25:27] unit during the day. Obviously you're
[25:29] you're housed, you know, it was boys
[25:30] with boys, girls with girls. Um
[25:33] and after about 2 3 days, I realized,
[25:37] "Okay, the only way out of here is to do
[25:39] the work." So,
[25:41] I did the work. I sat down and I started
[25:44] for the first time really talking about
[25:47] what was going on for me
[25:48] and listening. You can learn a lot in
[25:50] those places by listening to what's
[25:52] going on for other people. And I
[25:53] realized that a lot of what was going on
[25:55] internally for me had to do with the
[25:57] fact that you know,
[25:59] you know, I mean what do we need? We we
[26:00] basically need safety and acceptance at
[26:03] some level. You know, from from parents
[26:05] we also need guardrails. And at that
[26:08] time I was lacking all three.
[26:10] Um
[26:11] and
[26:12] I think you know, my inherent intensity
[26:15] and I'm a pretty
[26:17] um
[26:17] I'm not an emotional person in the sense
[26:19] that I don't emote easily. Um but I'm a
[26:23] very feeling person. I feel a lot. I
[26:25] don't know how other people perceive me,
[26:27] but I feel a lot. And um I think what
[26:30] was happening in my family unit at that
[26:31] time felt devastating.
[26:34] And um I missed my sister. She was off
[26:37] off in college. She had gone off to
[26:38] college. I've always been really close
[26:40] with my sister. And and really because
[26:42] this was like late well, this was late
[26:45] '80s, early '90s.
[26:47] I also didn't know many people from
[26:49] homes without you know, a mom and dad,
[26:51] this kind of thing.
[26:52] And I had been exposed to a lot already.
[26:55] You know, one of the beautiful things
[26:56] about skateboarding, at least back then,
[26:57] it's different now, is that it was
[26:59] completely self-organized. So, whenever
[27:01] I could, I would get a ride with a
[27:03] friend or take the bus up to San
[27:04] Francisco. There was this now famous
[27:07] {slash} infamous scene, the Embarcadero
[27:09] Plaza, that's called EMB, was this kind
[27:12] of self-organized
[27:14] place. You have these in major cities
[27:15] elsewhere. There was Love Park in
[27:16] Philadelphia, you know, Washington
[27:18] Square Park in New York. And back then,
[27:20] I learned a lot from the older it was
[27:22] mostly guys then. Now there's more women
[27:24] in skateboarding, girls and women in
[27:25] skateboarding and they rip. They're so
[27:27] good. But um back then it was mostly
[27:30] guys and so I learned all sorts of
[27:32] things there, some of which you know, I
[27:34] was far too young to learn. I got
[27:36] basically a street education
[27:39] um from kids that weren't going to
[27:41] school and who were just like living
[27:43] this wild free life. And I do want to be
[27:45] clear that even though there were
[27:48] let's call them untoward elements, there
[27:50] was also a lot an incredible beauty. And
[27:52] like you know, my friend Jake Rosenberg
[27:55] started going up there as well. He had
[27:57] his own challenges that I only learned
[27:59] about later.
[28:00] Um and he brought a video camera, Hi8
[28:03] video. He started filming the now like
[28:07] just like truly iconic videos of Mike
[28:10] Carroll. These names will mean things to
[28:11] you. Henry Sanchez, like Marc Gonzales
[28:13] is like he so he just started filming
[28:15] all this and then he made the first Plan
[28:17] B videos and he made the Waiting for
[28:19] Lightning documentary about Danny Way,
[28:21] like jumping the Great Wall of China.
[28:22] And our friend Mike Blabac, who's the
[28:25] photographer for the Huberman Lab
[28:26] podcast of all things, who became one of
[28:28] the most iconic action sports portrait
[28:30] photographers, was a kid who basically
[28:33] drove out from Michigan.
[28:34] I don't even know if he graduated high
[28:36] school. Some he probably did. And then
[28:38] he slept in the clothing stacks at the
[28:40] Gap store, hung out in Embarcadero, and
[28:43] took photos. And those photos and those
[28:45] videos that Mike and Jacob and other
[28:47] people took are now iconic in
[28:49] skateboarding.
[28:50] And so,
[28:51] I was also exposed to this incredible
[28:53] world of DIY like like take your
[28:55] passion, take your circumstance, and
[28:59] pick a craft and just document stuff.
[29:02] And so, in many ways like what happened
[29:04] at Embarcadero and what happened in
[29:05] skateboarding and I always loved punk
[29:07] rock music and going to shows. I have no
[29:08] musical talent and I
[29:10] I didn't suck at skateboarding, but I
[29:11] wasn't going to go anywhere with it.
[29:13] But the what I saw was if you love
[29:15] something and you want to learn as much
[29:17] as possible about it and you love the
[29:19] culture around it,
[29:20] you do have to learn how to sort out the
[29:22] untoward elements. Don't get yourself
[29:23] into trouble.
[29:25] But
[29:26] you take that energy and I just took it
[29:28] to academics. I remember realizing when
[29:31] I got to graduate school, I found a
[29:32] wonderful lab to work in with a
[29:33] wonderful woman named Barbara Chapman.
[29:35] Unfortunately, she passed away.
[29:37] And at the time she said, "Listen, I'm
[29:40] going to have a couple kids, but we have
[29:41] grants. You can So, she said I'm going
[29:43] to have a couple kids, so I'm going to
[29:44] be very busy, but we have grants and
[29:46] here's the lab." She said, "Don't burn
[29:47] the lab down. Don't hurt yourself, but
[29:49] just do experiments. Have fun." And I
[29:50] realized, I was like, "This is the
[29:52] best." And I had so much energy, and I
[29:54] thought, "I never have to go home." So,
[29:56] I lived there a lot of the time. Brush
[29:58] my teeth in the sink there, work out at
[29:59] the gym, go and shower, come back. And I
[30:02] remember people saying, "You're going to
[30:03] burn out. What are you doing?" And I'm
[30:05] like, "What are you talking about?" And
[30:06] I would work 80, sometimes 100 hours a
[30:08] week. I was so happy.
[30:10] And I realized, like, this is the exact
[30:12] same feeling. I'm just taking my
[30:13] interest, and I'm just pouring myself
[30:15] into it. I did that when I was a
[30:15] graduate student. I did when I was a
[30:17] post-doc. And actually, when I was a
[30:18] post-doc, I started writing some music
[30:22] um articles for Thrasher magazine. I've
[30:23] always kept some little tie to the
[30:25] skateboarding industry that way, just to
[30:27] make some extra cash.
[30:29] And then, when I was a junior professor,
[30:30] I had to really pour myself just into
[30:32] the laboratory, but it still worked out.
[30:35] And
[30:36] I guess the point is that
[30:37] you know, earlier you and I were talking
[30:39] about if you have, and I'm borrowing in
[30:41] this phrase from one of my heroes,
[30:42] Martha Beck, um who's a wonderful person
[30:45] and teacher, has such wisdom, and she
[30:47] calls it a um interest-based attention
[30:50] system. Some people might call it ADHD,
[30:53] but have you ever noticed that even
[30:54] people And we know this from the
[30:55] scientific literature, people, kids,
[30:58] adults with ADHD, when they're in
[31:00] so-called ADHD,
[31:03] when they are doing something they
[31:05] really love, they're like a laser.
[31:07] They're not going to peel off that.
[31:09] Their attention is like level 11 out of
[31:10] 10. So,
[31:13] I took
[31:14] that energy that I've always had in me
[31:16] for fish, for tropical birds,
[31:18] skateboarding, punk rock music,
[31:20] eventually it was biology, and I just
[31:22] went, "Okay, here are my chips.
[31:24] I'm all in. All in." But the goal has
[31:28] always been and remains to take what I
[31:30] learn
[31:31] and share it. Because the real joy in
[31:34] doing anything,
[31:36] for me, anyway, is the ability to share
[31:38] in that knowledge or in that experience.
[31:41] And so, um those early years were really
[31:43] choppy and really dangerous, you know,
[31:46] frankly. But then, when I started a
[31:48] laboratory and decided, "Yeah, I'm going
[31:50] to study human stress. Let's go get VR
[31:53] of stressful circumstances." And my
[31:55] friend Michael Muller, who's a very
[31:57] accomplished portrait photographer in
[31:59] Hollywood, and also takes photos of
[32:03] great white sharks out of cages, he said
[32:06] to me, "Oh, you know, your VR stimulus
[32:07] in your lab, um here's what he told me."
[32:10] He He's like, "It sucks." He said, "It
[32:12] sucks. It doesn't look real. It's all
[32:13] CGI. It's not scary at all.
[32:15] How about we, you know, go film some
[32:18] great white sharks down in Guadalupe
[32:19] Island, and we leave the cage?" And, you
[32:21] know, the the young Andrew was like,
[32:25] "Okay." So, got dive certified, went and
[32:27] did it one year, stayed in the cage,
[32:29] went the next year, exited the cage. I'm
[32:31] not recommending people live this way.
[32:33] I'm not, because I had an air failure at
[32:34] depth the second year while I was in the
[32:36] cage. I bailed out. I made it. I lived,
[32:39] but it was super scary. And it was not
[32:42] an experience I want to repeat. And I
[32:44] realized, you know, that's the line.
[32:47] Like, I you know, the great Oliver
[32:49] Sacks, another hero of mine,
[32:51] British-trained neurologist and and
[32:52] author, he wrote uh was basically what
[32:55] became the script for Awakenings and
[32:56] things like that. Um
[32:59] there's a quote about him that resonates
[33:01] a lot. And the quote, I think, is, I
[33:03] mean, you know, uh an early teacher of
[33:05] his said, "Oliver will go far, provided
[33:08] he does not go too far."
[33:10] And so, you know, you have to be
[33:11] careful, right? These adventures,
[33:13] leaving school, doing you you can't be
[33:15] haphazard about it. So,
[33:18] if you look at the broad arc, it's
[33:20] highly nonlinear, but there's a common
[33:22] thread through all of it, which is this
[33:24] desire to learn, curiosity,
[33:27] desire to share, intensity.
[33:30] And
[33:31] when I'm involved in any one thing, and
[33:33] I recommend that if people are involved
[33:34] in any one thing, if it's podcasting or
[33:36] sport or video games or math or AI or
[33:40] program, whatever it is, skateboarding,
[33:42] whatever it is, that you can't be
[33:44] haphazard in that world.
[33:47] Because
[33:48] forward progress, even if you change
[33:50] things over time, is the consequence of
[33:51] taking that inherent uniqueness that we
[33:54] each have, and whatever level of
[33:56] intensity we have, and making sure that
[33:58] you, you know, do take steps forward.
[34:00] And there are What I've learned is
[34:02] as a child, as an adolescent, and as an
[34:04] adult, there are all these traps along
[34:06] the way. There are all these shoots down
[34:09] to failure and destruction, and you have
[34:11] to be very, very thoughtful. And so, you
[34:14] can't be reckless.
[34:17] I'm really compelled as well by the
[34:18] letter you sent to your parents.
[34:21] Yeah, they they must have been very
[34:22] surprised. That letter was written
[34:25] in a house on a little street in the
[34:27] little town called Isla Vista, um Pasado
[34:30] Street, where I'd essentially been
[34:32] squatting for the summer with my ferret.
[34:34] That was the I tell you that cuz that
[34:36] was the picture. I had a ferret, her
[34:37] name was Iris, that my first girlfriend
[34:39] who had left me by then, cuz she was
[34:40] smart, cuz I had nothing going on. Um
[34:44] We were me and Iris were living
[34:46] together. I didn't even have a bed in
[34:47] the place. I thought, "Well, why pay
[34:48] rent, you know? Like, no one in Like,
[34:50] where I grown up with all these like
[34:52] like riffraff kids." Now, the town To be
[34:55] clear, the town I grew up in, Palo Alto,
[34:57] now is known as like one of the
[34:58] wealthiest places. At that time, it was
[34:59] like kind of upper middle class, but
[35:01] when I say like riffraff kids, I mean,
[35:03] like the people that congregated around
[35:05] skateboarding in the late '80s, early
[35:06] '90s, were the kind of like parentless,
[35:08] feral types. So, I learned a lot. I
[35:11] learned I can sleep mummy style
[35:12] anywhere.
[35:14] In a car, in a van, in a corner. So,
[35:16] like, why pay rent? That summer, I'd
[35:17] have more money to keep and save if I
[35:20] just
[35:21] got a pillow and a couple blankets and a
[35:22] sleeping bag. And this little place, I
[35:24] was living there with my ferret.
[35:26] And I came back from that fight on July
[35:28] 4th,
[35:29] and I thought, "Okay, like, this is it."
[35:32] And I think it was by the end of the
[35:33] weekend I'd written out this letter that
[35:35] said, essentially,
[35:37] the following. It said, "Look, I don't
[35:40] know why
[35:43] you guys decided to just fracture
[35:45] everything.
[35:46] I understood why my parents didn't want
[35:48] to be together. They were incompatible.
[35:50] Um By the way, they're both happily
[35:51] married now to wonderful people for many
[35:53] years. So, there there's a happy ending
[35:54] there. But at the time, I was very
[35:56] confused. It wasn't that I needed them
[35:58] to be together, but the level of
[36:01] friction in their separation was just
[36:03] like it I felt like a lot of it fell on
[36:05] me.
[36:06] And And there are reasons for that.
[36:08] But
[36:11] I basically forgave them.
[36:13] I basically said, "Listen, I
[36:15] forgive you.
[36:16] Um
[36:17] I realized that I need to take control
[36:19] of my life. I was 18. So, I'm a fall
[36:22] baby, so it was like I was almost 19.
[36:25] Um
[36:26] you know, 18 years old, 19 years old.
[36:29] And I need to do something with my life.
[36:32] And
[36:33] the only way I'm going to do that is by
[36:35] getting super focused
[36:36] and super organized. So, I somehow had
[36:39] the the idea to externalize this.
[36:42] And then, I wrote essentially the same
[36:44] letter to myself.
[36:45] And then, I just
[36:47] as my girlfriend who eventually got back
[36:49] together with me. That was interesting.
[36:50] As soon as I started working hard in
[36:52] school, I'll never forget what she said.
[36:53] We're still friendly. She's married with
[36:55] her own family, and they have a
[36:56] beautiful family, but every once in a
[36:58] while I'll hear from her, and I will
[36:59] never forget what she said to me about a
[37:01] year later when I was just absolutely
[37:03] rabid about learning. She said, um
[37:06] "You know, you've become a monster." And
[37:09] I was like, "A monster?" And she's like,
[37:11] "Yeah, a monster of learning and class
[37:13] and getting up early, and you tuck your
[37:15] shirt in." Like, I got into this whole
[37:17] thing of like dressing
[37:18] the opposite of everyone else that lived
[37:20] in that little town. It's a little beach
[37:21] town. Everyone wore flip-flops, rode
[37:23] beach cruisers.
[37:24] Uh at that time, it was like baggy
[37:25] shorts, long T-shirts, and I started
[37:27] tucking in my shirt, a belt. I would get
[37:29] like all like, you know, like cleaned
[37:31] up, and I'd and I'd go to class, and
[37:33] people are like, "What is wrong with
[37:34] this guy?" I just wanted to go
[37:35] completely against the grain and just be
[37:39] as disciplined and organized as
[37:40] possible. And I basically was parenting
[37:43] myself.
[37:44] And I think that this is something that
[37:45] I learned how to do early on. I love my
[37:47] parents, but I learned how to mother and
[37:48] father myself. And that was powerful. It
[37:51] was like I was a young guy, um but let's
[37:54] face it, you know, at 19, you're young,
[37:56] but you're not that young in the sense
[37:58] that if you screw up,
[38:00] you know, if you
[38:02] you know, I don't know. I had friends
[38:03] who got into drunk driving stuff. A
[38:05] friend of ours was killed in a drunk
[38:07] driving accident. Um I wasn't real close
[38:09] with him, but I knew him real well. This
[38:11] guy, Phil Shaw, great skateboarder,
[38:13] was killed cuz someone drove drunk. He
[38:15] wasn't driving drunk. Dead. Bunch of
[38:17] people dead or in jail. So, you know,
[38:18] when you're 18 or older, like, the
[38:20] consequences go super superlinear, you
[38:24] know, shift, um
[38:26] where small mistakes can lead to really
[38:29] bad outcomes. So, yeah, I just kind of
[38:31] scruffed myself, and I was like, "Let's
[38:33] do this." And, you know, here I am. I'm
[38:35] so intrigued by that, because in that
[38:37] moment, you have, I think, a moment in
[38:40] which a lot of people are searching for
[38:41] in their lives, where where you have you
[38:43] have a decision to do it differently.
[38:45] And I've always wondered what it takes
[38:46] for someone to get there. And is it
[38:47] something that you can accelerate
[38:50] towards? Like, is there If I'm laying on
[38:52] the couch right now, and I'm feeling
[38:53] that, is there something I can do to get
[38:55] me there, or do I need more pain?
[38:57] Fear.
[38:58] Fear.
[38:59] I'll tell you.
[39:01] Super scary being
[39:03] like almost 19 years old, girlfriend
[39:06] left me.
[39:07] I'm not good at anything. I wasn't good
[39:09] at anything.
[39:11] Not skateboarding, couldn't play an
[39:12] instrument.
[39:14] Everyone in that town surfed.
[39:16] Um Family?
[39:17] Family, I mean, I didn't Yeah, I could
[39:19] have gone to the fire service, and
[39:21] that's a wonderful career path. Um
[39:24] Yeah, I didn't I didn't have any like
[39:26] marketable skills. I couldn't really do
[39:29] anything, except I knew my capacity to
[39:31] learn. I've always had a very good
[39:33] memory,
[39:34] and I've always enjoyed learning.
[39:36] So, I thought, "Okay, school seems like
[39:38] a good option. They tell you what you
[39:40] need to know." In fact, at one point, I
[39:41] realized, and I think it was Ryan
[39:43] Holiday that said that, you know, the
[39:45] people who should absolutely not drop
[39:47] out of college are the people who are
[39:50] not doing well, because the real world
[39:52] is a lot harder in many ways. It's a lot
[39:55] harder than college. In college they
[39:56] tell they tell you what to do. I
[39:58] remember taking a class in Greek
[39:59] mythology. You go there, if you sit near
[40:01] the front, you pay attention, you try
[40:03] not to pay attention to anyone else. You
[40:05] sit down, they tell you what you need to
[40:06] know. Now, sometimes it's complicated,
[40:09] you can't keep up, but then they have
[40:10] these things called office hours where
[40:11] you can ask, they have teaching
[40:12] assistants. I mean, the whole thing is
[40:13] set up so that you almost can't fail if
[40:17] you do the required steps. Whereas with
[40:20] skateboarding, it's like I was always
[40:21] getting broke off, as they say, you
[40:23] know, I was always rolling my left foot,
[40:25] snapped again, uh nothing, couldn't do
[40:27] it.
[40:28] Um
[40:29] there's so much uncertainty in other
[40:31] things. At least with a college
[40:33] education, for me, it was like, okay,
[40:36] I can I can learn this stuff. And then
[40:39] what I found is when there's a desire to
[40:42] learn, and then you learn, and then you
[40:44] do well, and I'd started doing very
[40:46] well. Um
[40:48] and but there's that one class that I
[40:50] got a B+ in that I'm still pissed off
[40:52] about, you know. My first year was a
[40:54] disaster, then it was all A's, and then
[40:56] there's this one class in neural
[40:58] development from Ben Reese,
[41:00] and I got a B+.
[41:03] And as a consequence, when I went to
[41:05] graduate school, I studied neural
[41:07] development. You know, it's the thing
[41:09] that you don't get, the the place where
[41:10] you make an error that you forever carry
[41:12] that signal, I need to get better at
[41:14] that. So, I think a lot of it is just
[41:17] having the
[41:19] the knowledge of self, right? What did
[41:21] the oracle say? Know thyself. The
[41:22] knowledge of self
[41:24] to really think, okay, like, what are my
[41:26] strengths? Do I like to learn if I'm
[41:28] interested in something? Do I have a
[41:30] voracious appetite? Maybe if you're a
[41:32] person with less energy, um maybe uh
[41:36] you're more reflective, or you like to
[41:37] journal, or you need more time to
[41:38] process. I think turning what often
[41:41] appear as weaknesses into strengths is
[41:43] really possible.
[41:45] And then I do think that we are all each
[41:47] endowed with some unique gift. I really
[41:49] believe in this. Um it's not mystical
[41:51] for me. I think that we all have some
[41:54] wiring of our brains that's very
[41:55] similar, and we all have some unique
[41:57] wiring based on our genetics and our
[41:58] experience.
[42:00] And I just thought,
[42:02] I'm going to
[42:03] keep paying attention to what fills my
[42:05] body with energy.
[42:06] One of the most inspiring, and I think
[42:08] liberating, things that I've heard in
[42:10] your work is this idea of
[42:11] neuroplasticity, because
[42:13] if your if the brain can physiologically
[42:16] change based on what I'm doing, then it
[42:18] means that who I am now, my identity,
[42:20] that 60 that 19-year-old who's sleeping
[42:22] in the mummy thing with the ferret,
[42:24] isn't who I always have to be. I can
[42:25] literally change.
[42:27] Um we've spoken a little bit around like
[42:29] what causes the motivation to actually
[42:31] change, but knowing that there's a my
[42:32] brain will actually change, those two
[42:35] things are really inspiring for me,
[42:37] because it means that whatever rut I'm
[42:38] stuck in isn't necessarily a permanent
[42:40] one. Now, you said that the motivation
[42:42] to change comes from fear. Well, in my
[42:45] case, it took a a fear circumstance,
[42:48] fear of becoming a
[42:49] permanent failure, Yeah. to motivate
[42:52] immense change. And um
[42:54] uh that was that circumstance. I I do
[42:57] believe, however, that the
[42:59] best work, our most creative and best
[43:02] work, comes from a a love of craft.
[43:05] But sometimes, in order to find what you
[43:06] truly love, you have to be scared into
[43:09] setting off on a path to find it. And um
[43:13] yeah. And And And that goes for
[43:16] relationships, too. Sometimes, to find
[43:18] the right relationship, um or
[43:20] relationships, it could be friendships,
[43:22] romantic relationships, etc., one has to
[43:24] be
[43:26] like deathly afraid of having to remain
[43:28] in the the relationship that you're in
[43:29] enough to leave.
[43:30] So, neuroplasticity
[43:33] is absolutely real. Um it actually
[43:35] worked out that my scientific
[43:37] great-grandparents, two guys,
[43:40] David Hubel and Torsten Wiesel, won the
[43:42] Nobel Prize for
[43:44] for neuroplasticity. Now, they weren't
[43:46] the people who discovered it. It had
[43:48] actually been described for centuries.
[43:50] People understood that young kids
[43:52] can learn more easily than adults can.
[43:55] But David and Torsten won the Nobel
[43:57] Prize for essentially formalizing the
[44:01] and discovering the principles of
[44:02] neuroplasticity, how it works. And then,
[44:05] some years later,
[44:07] mainly one guy by the name of Mike
[44:09] Merzenich, but there were others that
[44:10] worked with him,
[44:12] discovered that neuroplasticity is
[44:14] actually a feature of the nervous
[44:15] system, the brain, throughout our entire
[44:18] lifespan. The rules change a little bit
[44:20] in terms of how you rewire your brain.
[44:22] But if the question is, can
[44:25] a person change? Can you learn new
[44:27] thing? Can you unlearn certain patterns?
[44:29] Can you overcome traumas
[44:31] at any age? The answer is absolutely,
[44:34] categorically, yes.
[44:37] How? Well, it's very clear that as a
[44:39] child until about age 25, more or less,
[44:43] just passive experience will shape the
[44:45] brain, for better or worse.
[44:47] After about age 25, and again, these are
[44:50] not strict cutoffs,
[44:52] we can change our brain, but what's
[44:54] required is a marked shift in the
[44:56] neurochemical environment under which
[44:59] something happens. So, one of the
[45:01] reasons why any traumatic event will
[45:03] forever be remembered, although, by the
[45:05] way, you can remove some of the
[45:07] emotional load of that, trauma does not
[45:08] have to be traumatic forever,
[45:12] is because when we see or experience
[45:14] something very intense of a fearful
[45:16] nature,
[45:18] there is the release of certain what we
[45:19] call neuromodulators, things like
[45:22] epinephrine, adrenaline, and other
[45:24] neuromodulators that cause a state shift
[45:27] in our broad body and brain.
[45:29] And the nervous system recognizes this
[45:32] as unusual, and as a consequence, in the
[45:34] subsequent days, there's reordering of
[45:36] the connections,
[45:38] so that the brain can prepare for that
[45:40] event should it happen again.
[45:42] This is why we have what's called
[45:43] one-trial learning. You go to a certain
[45:45] location, something terrible happens
[45:47] there, you will forever associate that
[45:49] location with something terrible. But
[45:52] there are tools, therapy, and other
[45:53] tools
[45:54] that can allow the emotional load to be
[45:57] removed from that, so that you could go
[45:58] to that location and feel calm, no fear
[46:01] whatsoever.
[46:02] The good news is you can also learn
[46:04] anything you want to learn,
[46:06] provided there's a shift in this
[46:07] neurochemical environment. This is why
[46:09] when we are very interested and focused
[46:11] on something, two of the main
[46:13] requirements for neuroplasticity, we
[46:15] have to be alert and we have to be
[46:16] focused. We can't learn passively as
[46:19] adults. We can't just play, um
[46:21] you know,
[46:22] a lecture about AI and large language
[46:25] models or neuroscience in the room, and
[46:27] then it just the knowledge doesn't just
[46:29] sink in by osmosis.
[46:31] But if we pay attention and we're alert
[46:33] when we pay attention,
[46:35] there's a shift in the neurochemicals
[46:37] associated with that attention,
[46:38] what we call the catecholamines. It's
[46:40] three molecules, dopamine, epinephrine,
[46:43] and norepinephrine, all which cause an
[46:45] increase in alertness, all which cause
[46:47] an increase in focus, a tightening of
[46:49] our visual field and our auditory field,
[46:51] so like cones of attention is one way to
[46:53] think about it. And then, it sets in
[46:55] motion a bunch of biological processes
[46:57] such that if we get adequate sleep that
[46:59] night,
[47:00] maybe the next night as well, there's
[47:02] reordering of neural connections, so
[47:04] that that knowledge, that new
[47:05] experience,
[47:07] is consolidated in your brain. You are
[47:09] forever changed as a consequence of that
[47:11] experience. So, when we hear that the
[47:14] brain is constantly changing, everything
[47:16] that we encounter changes our brain,
[47:18] that's not true.
[47:19] Why would the brain change unless it
[47:21] needed to? Right? As a child, the brain
[47:23] is basically a template for change. It's
[47:25] it's trying to understand the
[47:26] environment and make predictions, and so
[47:29] that's true. Neuroplasticity is is
[47:32] a cardinal feature of of childhood and
[47:34] adolescence and the teen years. You just
[47:36] think about the music you listened to
[47:37] when you were a teen, no other music
[47:39] will ever have as much significance. And
[47:41] that's because as a teen, your body is
[47:42] flooded with hormones and
[47:44] neuromodulators that the amount of
[47:45] meaning that comes from
[47:48] now seemingly trivial events when you're
[47:50] a teenager or adolescent is immense.
[47:52] That song meant so much, and it's
[47:54] because of the neurochemical milieu it
[47:56] creates in you. But as an adult, it
[47:58] takes a stronger stimulus, as we say.
[48:00] And if you were to
[48:03] fall in love as an adult, or see
[48:05] something a painting that just strikes
[48:08] you as just so unbelievable, yes, then
[48:11] you are forever changed. But just going
[48:13] to see a bunch of paintings at the Met
[48:14] doesn't mean that every single one of
[48:16] those paintings is forever stamped into
[48:17] your brain. The The nervous system is
[48:19] very
[48:20] um efficient in that way. It doesn't
[48:23] change unless it has to.
[48:25] And it
[48:26] always changes if it needs to in order
[48:28] to keep you safe. This is why there's an
[48:30] asymmetric influence of fear as opposed
[48:32] to um just interest in terms of what
[48:35] will shift our brain.
[48:37] But
[48:38] it's nice to know that love and
[48:41] excitement and appreciation are very
[48:44] strong stimuli for changing the brain.
[48:47] And um you know, I can
[48:49] kind of draw to mind conversations I've
[48:51] had with my good friend Rick Rubin. I'll
[48:53] get accused of name-dropping, but I'm
[48:54] very fortunate to be close friends with
[48:56] Rick, and Rick always talks about,
[48:59] you know, how when you just see and
[49:01] experience something and you just have
[49:02] this love for it, it changes the brain.
[49:05] He's not a neuroscientist, but in many
[49:06] ways, he's a neuroscientist. So, in any
[49:09] case, you absolutely can change your
[49:11] brain, but you have to pay attention to
[49:14] the thing you want to incorporate into
[49:16] your brain. You have to be alert while
[49:18] you do that, and then you absolutely
[49:20] have to go get some rest, because it's
[49:21] during sleep and during meditative
[49:24] states and during rest that the actual
[49:27] rewiring of the brain occurs.
[49:29] There's a phrase that you can't teach an
[49:30] old dog new tricks. And I think as we
[49:33] get older and older, we become stubborn
[49:34] in part because we're very comfortable
[49:37] with the way things are in routine and
[49:38] whatever, but also I think we start to
[49:40] believe in this idea that we can't
[49:43] change. And that in and in and of itself
[49:45] makes it harder to change. Are you
[49:47] telling me that you can teach an old dog
[49:49] new tricks? Yeah, I'm so glad you
[49:51] brought this up.
[49:52] Um let's just
[49:54] destroy that myth now. You absolutely
[49:57] can teach an old dog or human new
[49:59] tricks.
[50:00] We know this. In fact, there's studies
[50:03] incredible studies that were done down
[50:05] at the Salk Institute in San Diego
[50:07] showing that even in people who are very
[50:12] old, right? These are people in their
[50:13] 80s and 90s. You know, the human
[50:15] lifespan probably maximum human lifespan
[50:17] as we understand it is probably about
[50:18] 120 years
[50:21] more or less, but most people don't make
[50:22] it to 100, but so 80 or 90 is pretty
[50:24] old.
[50:24] Mhm.
[50:26] There's still the addition of new
[50:27] neurons occurring. These people who were
[50:30] unfortunately dying of terminal cancer,
[50:32] I believe, but other causes agreed to
[50:34] take a a dye that actually gets
[50:36] incorporated into new neurons. And then
[50:39] after they died, their brains were um
[50:41] you know
[50:43] looked at under the microscope and there
[50:45] was the addition of new neurons even at
[50:47] late age. Now, I want to be very clear
[50:49] that most of learning is not the
[50:51] addition of new neurons, at least not in
[50:53] humans.
[50:54] But from everything we know about
[50:55] neuroscience, it's clear that doesn't
[50:58] matter if you're 90 years old, 70 years
[51:01] old, 50 years old, if you want to learn,
[51:03] you can learn. And that learning occurs
[51:05] through neuroplasticity, which is the
[51:07] reordering of neural connections,
[51:08] strengthening of certain connections,
[51:10] weakening of others, and in some rare
[51:12] cases the addition of new neurons, but
[51:15] brain change is absolutely real at every
[51:18] stage of life.
[51:20] I also wonder about habit formation. So,
[51:23] you said there that some of the more
[51:24] sort of startling stimuluses like fear
[51:27] are great ways and and obsessive sort of
[51:29] deep focus are great ways to start
[51:32] forming these new behavior patterns. But
[51:33] if I want to break a habit cuz there's
[51:35] habits I've got in my life that I've
[51:36] kind of just told myself are
[51:38] who I am.
[51:40] And
[51:41] accordingly, I've just kind of accepted
[51:43] them. Well, you've been very successful,
[51:45] so Yeah, but even with all there's all
[51:47] thing Thank you, but with there's many
[51:48] things I'd still I've just accepted it's
[51:50] part of who I am. Some of those come
[51:52] from my childhood. So, one of them is
[51:53] that I grew up in a very disorganized
[51:55] home where like the doors inside my
[51:56] house had holes in them and our house
[51:58] there was like some rooms that looked
[51:59] like a hoarder lived there. Just piles
[52:01] and piles of stuff to the roof. Um house
[52:04] demolished in many respects. Like the
[52:06] back of the garden was 6 ft high. It was
[52:08] it was a mess. So, I've grown up with
[52:11] mess and I'm therefore still pretty
[52:14] messy today. And it's something I've
[52:15] always wanted to defeat, but I just
[52:17] sometimes I tell myself, well, it you
[52:18] know, it was hardwired into me when I
[52:20] was a kid
[52:21] and it it is just who I am. And a lot of
[52:24] people go around saying that. They've
[52:25] just kind of
[52:26] identified with and accepted a certain
[52:28] bad habit as part of who they are.
[52:31] Well, I will say that some of the most
[52:33] brilliant people I know had terribly
[52:35] messy offices. And they were very
[52:38] internally organized people. It's kind
[52:40] of interesting. They were like a laser
[52:42] beam in their ability to kind of sort
[52:44] through mess. They didn't see the mess.
[52:47] In fact, my post-doc advisor, who also
[52:49] sadly passed away, but an incredible
[52:51] human by the name of Ben Barres. Used to
[52:53] walk into his office and there'd just be
[52:55] piles of stuff everywhere. And I'd say,
[52:58] "Ben, I I think we should clean your
[52:59] office." And he'd say, "Don't touch
[53:00] anything because if you move anything, I
[53:02] won't know where it is." And I said,
[53:03] "How could you possibly know where
[53:04] anything is right now?" And he said, "I
[53:06] know where everything is." And so, I
[53:08] think some people also by growing up in
[53:11] or being in that environment also
[53:13] maintain an uncanny ability to find
[53:16] things. Whereas, I'm the sort of person
[53:18] where I can't do any work until
[53:19] everything is cleared away.
[53:21] And so, um I see myself as on the weaker
[53:25] side of this ability. Um but to your
[53:28] question, I think
[53:31] stories are very powerful and very
[53:33] dangerous.
[53:35] Stories are the way that humans organize
[53:38] knowledge by and large, right? We don't
[53:40] tend to
[53:41] organize things into lists. We have
[53:43] these narratives that we call stories
[53:44] because from a young age
[53:46] we learn things not just by hearing them
[53:50] and seeing them, but they are
[53:52] compartmentalized into narratives that
[53:55] have a beginning, a middle, and an end.
[53:56] Sometimes they have a
[53:58] uh kind of a crescendo and then a
[54:00] relaxation. Just think about a childhood
[54:01] song of learning like the ABCs.
[54:04] They don't teach you the ABCs A B C D E
[54:07] F G H I J K, right? They don't do that.
[54:10] What do they do? They give you a song,
[54:11] which is a story. Musicians will
[54:13] understand this inherently. Again, I'm
[54:15] not one, but
[54:16] when I started researching neuroscience
[54:18] of music in the brain, came to
[54:19] understand so it's A B C D E F G, right?
[54:24] The change in the inflections
[54:27] as one does the alphabet as a young kid
[54:29] is the story of the alphabet. Now,
[54:31] people might say, "Okay, what what is he
[54:33] talking about?" What's happening here is
[54:35] you create variation in terms of
[54:37] batching of ideas
[54:40] so that something has a beginning, a
[54:41] middle, and an end. So, if you think,
[54:43] "Okay, I grew up in this house and it
[54:45] was really messy and now I have too much
[54:47] mess and in order to undo that, there's
[54:49] this kind of like hardwired right
[54:51] dangerous words hardwired neural
[54:53] circuitry in my brain that I would have
[54:55] to work really really hard to undo and
[54:56] I'd have to be scared into being a
[54:58] cleaner person or what you or what you
[54:59] know, I'm a tidier person, whatever it
[55:01] is."
[55:02] That's very dangerous because there's a
[55:04] beginning to that, a middle to that, and
[55:06] an end to that and it has immense
[55:08] meaning as a consequence.
[55:10] One of the most powerful things is to
[55:12] understand that neuroplasticity really
[55:15] involves taking an existing story and
[55:18] dismantling some component of it. What
[55:20] could the component be? Well, there's
[55:22] all this stuff like the Byron Katie work
[55:24] which says, you know, you you take
[55:25] something that you believe as true and
[55:27] you say, "Okay, like uh like I'm an
[55:29] untidy person." And then you counter it.
[55:32] How do I know that? Well, okay, I have
[55:33] this experience. Okay, that's the story.
[55:35] And then you start running counter
[55:36] narratives. You say, "I'm uh
[55:39] I'm
[55:40] uh actually a tidy person." And then
[55:41] people say, "Well, this is silly. You're
[55:42] just lying to yourself, right?" Or they
[55:44] say, "Is it always true that you're a
[55:45] messy person?" You start challenging the
[55:47] story from different sides. Now, I
[55:49] believe as because I'm a neuroscientist,
[55:52] I'm not um in I'm not a psychologist or
[55:54] in the self-help world
[55:56] that the brilliance, the kind of
[55:58] unconscious genius of that approach is
[56:02] actually that what one is doing is
[56:04] you're starting to create a new story.
[56:06] You're starting to kind of infuse
[56:09] different questions into the existing
[56:11] neural network. Now, the brain loves
[56:12] questions. Like that the brain since
[56:14] we're we're young kids, we're asking
[56:16] questions. And so, if you take an
[56:17] existing story and you start challenging
[56:19] it with questions, you're not saying lie
[56:21] to yourself. You're not suddenly going
[56:22] to say, "Okay, like I'm super tidy."
[56:24] You're not going to cuz you're not going
[56:25] to believe that. But if you start
[56:26] challenging
[56:27] why it's that way or, you know, you've
[56:30] been able to change so many other
[56:31] things, why you wouldn't you be able to
[56:32] change that. We say, "Well, it's just a
[56:33] habit. I can't do it." You say, "Well,
[56:34] what's a habit?" And you start poking
[56:36] and pushing and pushing. What you
[56:38] eventually arrive at is this kind of
[56:40] huh.
[56:41] Actually, there's nothing keeping me
[56:43] from being a tidy person except this
[56:46] kind of fluency of a particular story.
[56:48] And what you've done is you've
[56:49] interrupted the fluency of that story.
[56:51] So, then when you go to the behavior of,
[56:52] you know, do you set things down all
[56:54] over the place or do you put them in an
[56:55] orderly fashion, you start interrupting
[56:58] the habit, the fluency of your typical
[57:00] behavior. So, I raise this as a as a way
[57:03] um to kind of shine light on essentially
[57:06] what
[57:06] I do in my podcast career, which is, you
[57:09] know, we I I believe very strongly in
[57:10] the fields of psychology. I think
[57:12] self-help has some wonderful things to
[57:13] offer. We've got ancient wisdom that
[57:15] goes way back. And when you start to
[57:17] look at things through the lens of
[57:18] biology you start to see that all of
[57:20] these things actually have merit and
[57:22] they're just different paths to the same
[57:24] outcomes. So, if you wanted to become a
[57:26] tidy person, I would encourage you here
[57:29] would be one
[57:30] let's just say neuroscience supported
[57:33] approach would be to write out one page
[57:35] about what a tidy person you really are.
[57:39] You'll know that's a lie, right? And
[57:42] then
[57:43] to
[57:44] look at it and realize that in many ways
[57:47] if you just replace tidy with, you know,
[57:49] messy at any location, it'd probably be
[57:51] the exact same story. And so, what
[57:53] you're really talking about here is just
[57:55] a default that your nervous system is
[57:57] running.
[57:58] And if you were to just swap the words,
[58:01] would you feel differently or do
[58:02] differently? On the one hand, you'd say,
[58:04] "No, that's kind of trivial." But I bet
[58:05] you the practice of writing it out would
[58:07] forever interrupt your notion of like
[58:09] just going to set something down. You'd
[58:10] be like, "Ah." Now you have something to
[58:12] kind of disrupt the habit cuz so much of
[58:14] habit disruption that you'll look like
[58:15] some people say, "Oh, you you flick a
[58:17] uh you know, rubber band on your wrist
[58:19] or something like that." There's nothing
[58:20] special about the rubber band. There's
[58:22] nothing special about the pain on your
[58:23] wrist or the you put a sticky note. We
[58:25] know sticky notes work for about 1 day.
[58:27] Why don't sticky notes work? Why don't
[58:29] reminders on the mirror work? Because
[58:31] they you don't have enough salience.
[58:32] They're not new. They're not different.
[58:34] The nervous system only changes if
[58:35] something is new and different. So,
[58:37] anyway, we could talk a lot about habit
[58:38] formation, but fear works, but so does
[58:41] disrupting the story. How do you disrupt
[58:42] the story?
[58:44] You essentially
[58:45] give the opposite story. And you think,
[58:48] "Well, that's just lying to myself." But
[58:49] neurally, it makes sense because
[58:52] the nervous system again likes to be
[58:54] very economical, likes to do everything
[58:56] with the minimum amount of energetic
[58:58] expenditure.
[58:59] And to change anything requires
[59:01] attention and attention is expensive.
[59:04] Attention is expensive. And also, I
[59:06] would say, as I'm kind of rambling all
[59:08] this
[59:10] things are going very well for you. So,
[59:11] you actually don't have any reason to
[59:14] tidy your space.
[59:16] now and another PA and I have a cleaner.
[59:17] So, it's Do you know what I mean? The
[59:18] Yeah, you outsource it. Yeah.
[59:20] Great. Well, there is incentive for all
[59:22] the folks that feel like they're not um
[59:24] tidy enough. You have two choices. You
[59:25] can either start to be tidy now or you
[59:28] can be successful enough that you can
[59:29] hire some assistants. And I actually
[59:31] think and say this in in all
[59:32] seriousness, I think that one has to ask
[59:35] like where is my attention and neural
[59:38] real estate best devoted? I think about
[59:40] this every day. I mean, we are living in
[59:42] a war
[59:44] of attention. I wake up in the morning
[59:45] and I can be a consumer or a creator. If
[59:48] I reach for my phone,
[59:50] I'm a consumer.
[59:52] If I go to my journal, I'm a creator.
[59:56] My advice to anyone who wants to be
[59:58] successful in any domain
[60:00] is to do things away from where you
[60:03] broadcast and then take it to that
[60:05] broadcast. I mean, take your real life
[60:08] to Instagram
[60:10] and be very cautious about taking
[60:12] Instagram to your real life. Does that
[60:14] make sense? If you look at successful
[60:15] people, they're doing things away from
[60:17] the platforms and putting them on the
[60:18] platforms.
[60:19] Yeah. So, I have to be very careful.
[60:21] Then I go into the kitchen.
[60:23] Obviously, I
[60:24] talk to people in my home.
[60:26] Um
[60:27] but
[60:28] if I pick up the phone and I start
[60:30] making a phone call, it's like, is this
[60:32] call really about moving
[60:35] the needle forward or is this just kind
[60:37] of like passive use of of attention? We
[60:39] have to be so careful nowadays. So, so
[60:41] careful. It's really challenging. On
[60:43] that point of focus and attention and
[60:46] thinking back to when you were 19 years
[60:47] old, one of the things people ask me a
[60:48] lot and I guess it's a bit of a debate
[60:50] in the self-help world is from a
[60:51] neuroscience perspective, is
[60:53] manifestation
[60:55] and this idea of like visualization,
[60:57] visualizing who I want to become and you
[60:59] know, where I'm going, is there any
[61:00] neuroscience to support that that works?
[61:03] There is. Um
[61:04] and I'm not trying to be negative, but
[61:06] I'll start with the negative counter
[61:08] example for which there is evidence and
[61:11] it's less often discussed. So, there's a
[61:14] wonderful researcher at New York
[61:15] University by the name of Emily Balcetis
[61:18] who talks about how for
[61:20] goal
[61:22] setting and habit formation, fear
[61:25] setting is often one of the best tools.
[61:27] You spend some time, maybe 5 minutes or
[61:30] so thinking about all the terrible
[61:31] things that are going to happen if you
[61:32] don't actually accomplish your goals.
[61:34] Nobody likes to do this, but guess what?
[61:36] It turns out to be pretty darn
[61:38] effective.
[61:38] Really? I know. It's really frustrating
[61:40] that this is the case. But again,
[61:43] you know, that has a lot to do with the
[61:44] way that the human brain is is wired and
[61:47] and likes to rewire itself. Now, that
[61:49] said, it is important to envision goals.
[61:53] Visualizing goals in detail,
[61:55] um writing them out, in some cases
[61:58] talking about them, although we can
[62:00] discuss that,
[62:01] um why that might not be the best idea
[62:03] in every circumstance,
[62:05] um can be very beneficial because it's
[62:07] hard to conceive something that you
[62:09] can't imagine, but I think when people
[62:11] hear that visualizing goals or
[62:13] visualizing outcomes is critical, we
[62:15] sometimes forget that we don't always
[62:16] know what the end goal is. Sometimes we
[62:18] have to break this up into milestones.
[62:20] This is where I think uh Rick Rubin,
[62:22] even though he's not a
[62:24] formally trained scientist, um has drawn
[62:27] a lot of interest for his work on
[62:28] creativity, which is you know, Rick is
[62:31] about largely, you know, sensing the
[62:34] kind of energetic pull of an idea and
[62:36] being able to explore that without too
[62:38] much uh self-judgment or filtering or
[62:40] thinking about how it's going to be
[62:41] received. In other words, that the
[62:43] metamorphosis that leads to great music,
[62:46] great poetry, great scientific
[62:47] discovery, podcasts, finance, companies
[62:51] one is building, etc., is a series of
[62:53] iterations that occur on the time course
[62:55] of about a day.
[62:57] You know, and so we can't always imagine
[62:59] the end or the end product as the
[63:01] outcome. This is why I said university
[63:03] is easy compared to other goals because
[63:04] the end is a degree. Mhm. Right? And
[63:07] then you pick up your diploma. Like
[63:09] whereas in other areas, it's far more
[63:11] mysterious often.
[63:13] Now,
[63:15] visualization I think can be very
[63:16] powerful,
[63:18] but perhaps what's more powerful is to
[63:20] learn the brain and body state that best
[63:25] serves the work you're going to do. So,
[63:27] for instance, if I'm going to do some
[63:29] writing and right now I'm working on a
[63:31] book. It's largely done, but I'm writing
[63:33] some bonus chapters.
[63:35] Unless I'm hyper motivated to do that
[63:37] when I sit down and hyper focused, I'll
[63:39] spend
[63:41] two, three minutes just closing my eyes,
[63:42] focusing on my breathing.
[63:45] It's meditation of sorts, but what I
[63:46] tell myself is if I can't focus on my
[63:48] breathing for two or three minutes, how
[63:50] in the world am I going to focus on
[63:51] writing for two or three hours? That
[63:54] sort of thing.
[63:55] The other thing that I want to make sure
[63:56] I don't forget is
[63:57] I mentioned that telling people your
[63:59] goals often times can be useful if it
[64:02] stimulates a little bit of fear, like
[64:03] you have some accountability.
[64:05] But we also know that
[64:08] because of the affiliative nature of
[64:11] people, in particular people that
[64:13] support us,
[64:15] there is this danger.
[64:17] Uh a friend of mine who's a cardiologist
[64:18] at UCSF taught me this. He said, you
[64:20] know, be careful who you tell that
[64:22] you're going to start a podcast or write
[64:24] a book because often times the response
[64:27] will be, oh yeah, that's great. You
[64:28] absolutely should write a book or you
[64:29] should do a podcast. And people get a
[64:31] sort of reward from telling people about
[64:33] it and then they never actually go do
[64:35] it. Whereas I can cite numerous examples
[64:38] of where people were told, you're never
[64:40] going to be able to do that. You're
[64:42] never going to be able to be successful
[64:44] in that and
[64:45] my goodness, those people dig their
[64:47] heels and they show that they can do it.
[64:50] Now,
[64:51] I get into debates about this with Rick
[64:53] from time to time. It's a you know, it's
[64:55] unclear to me whether or not the energy
[64:57] around trying to prove oneself
[64:59] is detrimental to the outcome.
[65:02] And I sense it is, right? This kind of
[65:04] grinding against like, take that and
[65:05] take that as opposed to just doing
[65:08] things out of real love of craft. I
[65:09] think about the way I felt about aquaria
[65:11] and fish as a kid and it's just like
[65:13] pure delight. That's the word that comes
[65:15] to mind. Just delight. I want to learn
[65:16] more about it. I want to do it and tell
[65:18] people about it.
[65:20] That's the wonderful romantic picture of
[65:23] effort and progress and outcomes.
[65:26] But in reality, you probably need both.
[65:28] You need to be able to access some fear
[65:30] and sense of competition, but also
[65:32] delight in craft. You know, like Peter
[65:35] Thiel's book Zero to One, as I recall,
[65:37] defines competition as anti-creativity
[65:40] in many ways because you through
[65:42] competition, you are
[65:45] by definition changing what you're doing
[65:47] in order to outdo somebody else or
[65:49] something else. And so you're morphing
[65:51] your creation
[65:53] in order to kind of overcome something.
[65:56] Whereas if you're just purely thinking
[65:58] about something you want to grow and
[66:00] cultivate, there none of those barriers.
[66:03] In the worlds that I've been in,
[66:05] science,
[66:07] to a lesser extent podcasting and that's
[66:09] a wonderful feature of podcasting, but
[66:11] certainly in science, it is hyper
[66:12] competitive, right? Two laboratories
[66:15] working on similar things, people are
[66:17] concerned that if one publishes first,
[66:19] the other will not be able to publish,
[66:21] certainly not in as high quality a
[66:23] journal and jobs are created through
[66:25] these journal publications. Podcasting
[66:28] is actually a wonderful field um because
[66:31] let's say you and I have the same guest
[66:32] on our podcast. All it does is raise it
[66:34] in the algorithm. It's not like, you
[66:36] know, and and it's such a and so I think
[66:38] there's a lot of um collegiality and
[66:40] camaraderie in the podcast field that um
[66:43] exists in little pockets in
[66:45] science, but um science is a brutally
[66:48] competitive field,
[66:50] which doesn't mean it's anti-creative,
[66:52] but in a dream world where there's
[66:55] infinite amount of money for scientific
[66:58] research because that would better
[66:59] humanity in my in my view. Um and people
[67:02] didn't have to be competitive about
[67:04] grant dollars or publication, I think we
[67:06] would make far more progress as a
[67:08] species. So, competition fosters
[67:12] outcomes. This is clear in markets. It's
[67:14] clear in a lot of domains, but
[67:17] pure love and delight of craft and
[67:19] creativity, that's definitely the way to
[67:21] go. But in most endeavors, you got to
[67:22] have both. If sitting next to someone in
[67:24] class and realizing, okay, cuz this was
[67:26] me back when I'm thinking, okay, I I
[67:28] love this topic, but gosh, I want that
[67:31] top mark. I want that top mark on the
[67:32] distribution. Like that's and and like
[67:35] she and he are really, really good and
[67:37] I'm going to we're going to study
[67:38] together, but my god, when it comes time
[67:40] for that exam, like I'm going for it. A
[67:42] little bit of competition can can bring
[67:44] out our our best, I think. Um certainly
[67:46] in sport. But when it comes to creative
[67:48] endeavors that are really about our own
[67:51] unique contribution, I mean, you could
[67:52] tell me more about this in business
[67:53] because you're you're I don't you know,
[67:55] I have a company, but I'm not a business
[67:57] person, but I I always feel like
[67:59] competition
[68:01] can bring out more energy,
[68:03] but not more creativity.
[68:05] Yeah, and I think a big point I was
[68:07] thinking as you were talking was just
[68:08] about how much you let that new energy
[68:10] that comes from competition distract
[68:12] you.
[68:13] And this is it's the distraction that
[68:14] can destroy you because if
[68:16] Apple are going this way and they're
[68:18] building this product without the
[68:20] keyboard and without the stylus and
[68:22] that's they've got their vision and they
[68:24] see Samsung doing over there something
[68:25] over there. And if they if they divert
[68:27] from their own mission and their own
[68:29] first principles towards what someone
[68:30] else is doing, then that's when it can
[68:32] become destructive. But if it means that
[68:33] they see Samsung doing something and
[68:35] they speed up and invest more in their
[68:36] vision, then it's okay. I think that's
[68:38] and it is this dichotomy between
[68:40] competition does drive better outcomes
[68:42] for everybody that's competing, but at
[68:44] the same time, um yeah, it can harm you
[68:47] if it distracts you in a fundamental
[68:49] way. It's kind of how I think about it.
[68:50] Even with podcasting like
[68:52] you know, um
[68:54] as you were saying, there's so many
[68:55] podcasters doing so many amazing things.
[68:56] Like
[68:57] I I look at your podcast and I learn
[68:59] from it, but I know in my current we all
[69:01] know, I'm never going to be Andrew
[69:02] Huberman. Well, and I'll never be you.
[69:04] And I'll never be a Joe Rogan. I'll
[69:05] never be a Lex.
[69:06] And I admire your podcast very much and
[69:08] Joe's and Lex's. I think it's we each
[69:10] have our own unique style that we bring
[69:11] to it. Chris Williamson, you know, um
[69:15] it's
[69:16] been a lot of fun to see the unique
[69:19] flavors of podcasts crop up Yeah. and
[69:22] how similar that is to the world I grew
[69:24] up in in skateboarding, the observations
[69:26] of from the music industry that I saw
[69:29] firsthand or that, you know, Rick has
[69:30] passed along. You know,
[69:33] in the end, I think
[69:35] any creative endeavor is really about
[69:37] and here I don't want to sound
[69:38] mysterious or woo, it's about the energy
[69:40] that we bring.
[69:41] It's about
[69:43] taking our life history and bringing it
[69:45] to that thing in whatever form. We don't
[69:47] even need to tell people our life
[69:48] history. Taking our unique wiring and
[69:51] bringing it to that thing. And we can
[69:55] again, look at things through the lens
[69:56] of biology and say, well, what are we
[69:57] talking talking about when we're talking
[69:59] about energy? What is this energy thing
[70:01] that people are talking about?
[70:03] Um
[70:03] and I think it largely boils down to
[70:06] these catecholamines, the dopamine,
[70:08] epinephrine, norepinephrine cocktail
[70:10] that is setting the brain into a mode of
[70:12] attention, of motivation. We now know
[70:14] dopamine is more about motivation to
[70:16] seek rewards as opposed to feeling of
[70:19] pleasure or reward. There's a lot to be
[70:20] said about that.
[70:22] And keep in mind that these three
[70:23] neurochemicals,
[70:25] dopamine, norepinephrine, and
[70:27] epinephrine,
[70:28] have been the neurochemical cocktail by
[70:31] which humans and other mammals have
[70:34] set and pursued goals for hundreds of
[70:37] thousands of years.
[70:39] So, we don't have like a unique system,
[70:41] a unique neurochemical system for
[70:43] seeking out of mates versus food versus
[70:46] creating shelter versus creating
[70:48] technology and whole societies.
[70:51] And it's not just these three
[70:53] neurochemicals. Certainly, there are
[70:54] other things involved. Acetylcholine
[70:56] and, you know, a bunch of other things,
[70:58] neuroplasticity for that matter. But,
[71:00] it's
[71:01] clearly the case that the currency that
[71:03] the brain has set around getting us into
[71:06] forward center of mass, as I say, to
[71:08] like envision something, explore. Nope,
[71:11] not down there. This way. Ah.
[71:13] There's a scent here. And trade out an
[71:15] actual scent
[71:16] for, you know, oh, there's something
[71:18] interesting here. There's someone
[71:19] interesting here. And like exploring
[71:21] that No, that's a dead path to
[71:23] cul-de-sac. Turn around. Go Oh, here.
[71:25] And then connecting these nodes of
[71:26] progress. What's progress? Ah, there's
[71:29] kind of another surge of these
[71:30] catecholamines, which sets us in forward
[71:32] center of mass.
[71:34] You know,
[71:35] I don't want to oversimplify the
[71:36] biology, but when we talk about energy,
[71:39] um for instance, taking
[71:41] time to rest at night,
[71:43] sleep, taking time to maybe meditate a
[71:46] few minutes or do this practice that I'm
[71:48] a huge fan of non-sleep deep rest, which
[71:50] is kind of a body scan deep relaxation,
[71:52] long exhales.
[71:54] It's a practice very similar to an
[71:56] ancient practice called yoga nidra,
[71:58] which has been practiced for thousands
[71:59] of years. It's a kind of pseudo sleep.
[72:01] And we know from a really nice study
[72:03] that
[72:04] NSDR, non-sleep deep rest, aka yoga
[72:07] nidra,
[72:08] can increase the baseline levels of
[72:11] dopamine in a brain area called the
[72:13] basal ganglia, which is for
[72:16] action generation and also withholding
[72:18] action by about 60% from baseline. Just
[72:21] a a short period of doing this practice
[72:23] can re kind of re-up dopamine levels to
[72:26] a considerable extent. So, a remarkable
[72:27] study and there are others like it. So,
[72:30] what does that mean? Well, it means that
[72:32] in rest, we build up this capacity to be
[72:35] forward center of mass when we
[72:37] emerge from rest. That's why I think we
[72:39] have to sleep every 24 hours. This is
[72:42] why practices where we deliberately calm
[72:44] ourselves and still ourselves
[72:46] allow us to be more forward center of
[72:49] mass mentally and physically afterwards.
[72:51] It's kind of a duh when we hear it, we
[72:52] kind of go, oh, duh, of course, rest,
[72:54] action, rest, action. But,
[72:57] there's a lot more to it. If you start
[72:58] exploring the layers, you start
[73:00] realizing that excitement for things, um
[73:02] versus burnout. What's burnout? It's
[73:04] just trying to be forward center of mass
[73:06] for too long. It's
[73:09] you know, misuse of our dopamine
[73:11] circuitry.
[73:12] It's, you know, ignoring the fact that
[73:14] these catecholamines and dopamine in
[73:16] particular,
[73:17] they are not infinite in their
[73:20] availability, right? There's a reservoir
[73:22] of them
[73:23] that can be depleted, but it can be
[73:24] replenished as well. And one of the best
[73:26] analogies for this, um was actually
[73:29] explained to me by a guy named Dr. Kyle
[73:30] Gillette. He does some online work as a
[73:32] as a um public-facing physician,
[73:34] endocrinology in particular. And he
[73:35] said, "But, dopamine is kind of like a
[73:37] wave pool. You have this reservoir that
[73:39] can allow you to pursue things or scroll
[73:41] the internet or build businesses,
[73:42] whatever it is.
[73:44] If you are really forward center of
[73:46] mass, very intensely, you start
[73:47] generating these waves.
[73:49] And if you get big waves of dopamine and
[73:51] they crash out of the pool, you start
[73:53] depleting the reservoir. So, when I
[73:55] think about drugs of abuse like cocaine,
[73:57] which leads to huge surges in dopamine,
[74:00] or um amphetamines, huge surges in
[74:03] dopamine. What do we know about huge
[74:04] surges in dopamine? Well, after those
[74:06] huge surges, you drop below your initial
[74:09] baseline
[74:11] to a state in which the same thing
[74:13] doesn't feel as good anymore. You need
[74:15] so much more energy to get the same
[74:17] output. That's what this is, right?
[74:19] That's what this is. So, I'll put this
[74:20] on the screen for anyone. Yeah, so my
[74:22] colleague at Stanford, Dr. Anna Lembke,
[74:25] who runs our dual diagnosis addiction
[74:28] clinic and wrote the wonderful book
[74:29] Dopamine Nation, described this best.
[74:31] You know, it's sort of like a seesaw,
[74:33] but what where by you get a big peak in
[74:36] dopamine, let's say from a drug of abuse
[74:38] like cocaine. People on cocaine, it's
[74:41] all about ideas and what's next. They're
[74:43] not like, hey, let's just kick back.
[74:44] It's all about what's They In fact, they
[74:46] have a million ideas per second. Most of
[74:47] them are terrible ideas. But, they're
[74:49] very forward center of mass motivated.
[74:52] And then when the drug wears off, they
[74:54] feel very low and very depressed. The
[74:55] dopamine is actually depleted below
[74:57] baseline.
[74:59] People that work excessively, right? We
[75:01] all have different abilities to work
[75:03] out, but people that work excessively
[75:05] and abuse stimulants in order to do
[75:06] that, achieve these peaks. Is that like
[75:08] So, what would be the an an everyday
[75:11] example of that, working excessively? Do
[75:13] you mean like a pre-workout or something
[75:15] or what do you mean?
[75:15] Yeah, I'm not anti-pre-workout. Listen,
[75:17] I love to be well-rested, hydrated, have
[75:21] a nice pre-workout drink,
[75:23] maybe even a little shot of espresso,
[75:25] listen to some music, and have an
[75:27] incredible leg day workout. It's an
[75:29] amazing feeling, right? But, if you do
[75:31] that every single time, you start
[75:33] stacking all these catecholamine
[75:36] release-inducing drugs, okay? So, you're
[75:38] getting adrenaline, you're getting
[75:39] epinephrine, which is adrenaline, excuse
[75:41] me. You're getting adrenaline, you're
[75:42] getting noradrenaline, also called
[75:44] norepinephrine. You're getting dopamine
[75:46] release. You're highly motivated. You're
[75:48] in that state that everyone is seeking.
[75:51] And you try and do that 7 days a week,
[75:52] you're not going to do it. And then you
[75:54] wonder why in the afternoon, you're just
[75:55] completely cooked and you can't do any
[75:57] cognitive work. Well, your dopamine and
[75:59] other things have crashed below
[76:01] baseline. So, I think it's important to
[76:03] understand that being as I'm calling it
[76:06] forward center of mass,
[76:08] like really kind of
[76:09] motivated and pursuing goals is great,
[76:12] but most of the time, we're probably
[76:15] best off just coming off the gas pedal
[76:17] just a little bit to maintain that
[76:21] ability to continue to be forward center
[76:23] of mass. The same thing is true for
[76:24] stress. We hear stress is bad. Well,
[76:27] stress is bad, but it also sharpens your
[76:29] ability to learn, it creates energy, it
[76:31] actually boosts your immune system in
[76:32] the short term. I say,
[76:35] tolerate as much stress as you can,
[76:38] provided you still behave like a kind
[76:41] person, right? Don't say or do things
[76:43] that are unkind.
[76:44] And make sure that you still get great
[76:46] sleep at night. Most people stress,
[76:48] stress, stress, stress, run around and
[76:50] then they can't sleep at night. And then
[76:51] the next day, they're depleted. But, a
[76:53] little bit of stress is healthy. Life is
[76:55] stress, things are stressful. But again,
[76:57] you're going to be in your best state of
[76:59] mind if you're calm and alert. Alert and
[77:01] calm is the is the magic recipe and the
[77:04] ability to sleep at night. If you want
[77:06] to take a bunch of pre-workout and you
[77:09] want to listen to some loud music and
[77:10] have a great crush-it workout, great.
[77:13] But, you should probably also be able to
[77:14] train without all of that.
[77:17] If you're somebody who loves new goals
[77:19] and you, you know, you're very excited
[77:20] about travel and this and that, great.
[77:22] But, do you have to layer in 50 things
[77:24] and then you're sitting around at home
[77:26] and you're wondering why you're so bored
[77:27] when you're back home and why life is so
[77:29] depressing and you need more travel,
[77:30] more stimulation. In every domain of
[77:32] life, we see whether or not it's food or
[77:35] exercise or stimulants or sex or
[77:39] media. If you push things to the max,
[77:43] you're going to feel depleted and
[77:45] understimulated afterwards. And this
[77:47] trough below baseline, as Anna Lembke
[77:49] taught us with Dopamine Nation,
[77:52] that trough
[77:54] is a state that can last a long time.
[77:56] And it's How long? It's proportional to
[77:58] how high that peak in dopamine was. Not
[78:01] how long, but how high that peak in
[78:02] dopamine was. And when you're in that
[78:04] trough, that dopamine-depleted state,
[78:06] typically, what people do is they try
[78:08] and go out or access things that are
[78:11] going to reactivate the dopamine
[78:13] circuitry and all it does is drive them
[78:15] further and further and longer and
[78:17] longer into that trough. What's needed
[78:19] is a period of waiting, of
[78:21] non-indulgence in any of these excesses
[78:24] that allows them to return to baseline.
[78:26] We know this from
[78:28] drugs of abuse. It takes more and more
[78:30] drug to try and get what turns out to be
[78:32] less and less of a high. Most all
[78:34] addiction, most all compulsive behavior
[78:37] can be cured, essentially,
[78:39] through a period of abstinence lasting
[78:41] somewhere between 30 and 60 days, which
[78:44] to somebody who's highly motivated to
[78:45] seek that thing or do that thing, sounds
[78:47] like a an absolute horror. But, that is
[78:50] highly effective. So, for some people,
[78:52] it's work and stimulants, you know, a
[78:54] number of people taking Adderall and
[78:55] work, work, work, work, work.
[78:57] I hear from these people all the time.
[78:59] Typically, they are from the tech and
[79:00] finance world. They're like, "Why am I
[79:02] burnt out?" Well, you've been blasting
[79:05] these catecholamine
[79:06] regulated circuits for years. You need
[79:09] to just accept you're going to feel a
[79:11] little low for a week, then you're going
[79:13] to feel a little less low, and you're
[79:14] going to come back to baseline.
[79:16] And then, and only then, can you really
[79:18] get back into like full forward center
[79:21] of mass. But, at that point, you can
[79:23] introduce, you know, I I do think there
[79:25] is a clinical use case for certain ADHD
[79:28] meds, which are amphetamine. There are
[79:30] certain people that need those meds.
[79:32] Other people have driven themselves into
[79:34] this dopamine trough, and so they're
[79:36] seeking out anything and everything to
[79:38] get them out of that trough, when really
[79:39] what they need to do is stay away from
[79:41] all that stuff and just wait. Just wait.
[79:44] or something. Go on holiday.
[79:46] Try and find reward in smaller things.
[79:49] Um, you know, this is why dogs are
[79:50] wonderful in simpler things. And if that
[79:53] sounds heavy and dull to you, chances
[79:55] are you're a bit in the dopamine
[79:59] uh
[80:00] loop. Um, I've been in these loops
[80:03] before. They're hard to exit, but once
[80:04] you exit them, you look back on them and
[80:06] you go, "What was I thinking?" Well, you
[80:08] were in a different state. You're kind
[80:10] of a different animal when you're in
[80:11] pursuit. I think this is so unbelievably
[80:14] important, because it really helps
[80:15] people to understand why they do what
[80:17] they do. And before you doing the
[80:19] research when you coming here today, and
[80:21] before understanding some of this stuff,
[80:22] I thought dopamine was
[80:24] I don't know, it was this thing that
[80:25] came in these hits maybe, and if I did
[80:27] something I got ahead of it, then I
[80:28] returned to baseline. If I did something
[80:30] again stimulating, I'd go ahead of it,
[80:32] then I returned to baseline. But what
[80:33] actually is happening is I'm doing
[80:36] something that's stimulating in some
[80:37] way. I'm getting this huge peak, then
[80:39] I'm crashing below baseline for a while.
[80:42] And when I'm below baseline, I'm
[80:44] That's when I'm most likely to want to
[80:46] do something that's going to give me a
[80:47] hit again. That's right.
[80:48] And when I saw that, it reminded me of
[80:50] the CGI monitor, the continuous glucose
[80:53] monitor that I wore. Because it was a
[80:55] very similar pattern. If I had a lot of
[80:57] sugar, I had a big peak, then I crashed
[80:58] below my baseline.
[80:59] Right. That's a great observation. It is
[81:01] the perfect analogy. Perfect analogy,
[81:03] because these regulatory systems are all
[81:05] about trying to reg maintain
[81:07] homeostasis. We all hear about we learn
[81:08] about homeostasis, like the desire for
[81:11] balance. The The The human body and
[81:13] human physiology is actually geared more
[81:15] towards something called allostasis,
[81:16] which involves kind of stress
[81:17] modulation. But without getting into too
[81:19] many details, you know, these are
[81:21] dynamic systems.
[81:23] Meaning brain systems that are designed
[81:25] to allow us to overcome challenges if
[81:28] need be, right? This is why I always
[81:29] push back on the idea that, you know,
[81:30] stress crashes your immune system. You
[81:32] know what crashes your immune system?
[81:34] Being very, very stressed, working a
[81:35] lot, a lot, caretaking for someone else,
[81:38] and then stopping. You always get sick
[81:39] when you stop.
[81:40] Why? Because actually stress activates
[81:43] the immune system. Makes sense that it
[81:45] would do that evolutionarily, right? And
[81:47] then when we rest,
[81:49] boom, our immune system kind of relaxes
[81:51] a little bit, and then we succumb to
[81:52] that that, you know, that bacteria or
[81:54] virus. So, what does it mean? It means
[81:56] that we should probably learn to
[81:58] modulate. It's like driving a car.
[82:01] Anytime we feel that we're headed toward
[82:03] or in a peak state, we should probably
[82:05] kind of like lean back off that state
[82:07] just a tiny bit. Just a tiny bit,
[82:09] especially if that peak state is coming
[82:11] by way of pharmacology or some extreme
[82:13] circumstance. Just back off a little
[82:15] bit, maybe a lot, okay?
[82:17] So, when we do that, we learn to master
[82:20] the transition states between these what
[82:23] I'm referring to as forward center of
[82:24] mass, flat-footed, or back on my heels.
[82:26] It's a term I learned from a former Navy
[82:28] SEAL operator. He said, "With anything
[82:30] in life, you can either be back on your
[82:31] heels, like really challenged,
[82:33] flat-footed, kind of like calm and
[82:35] forward, or forward center of mass, like
[82:37] full tilt." I think most people would do
[82:39] very well to learn to master the
[82:40] transition states between waking and
[82:44] going to sleep, right? Many people can't
[82:45] fall asleep.
[82:47] Many people just kind of like can't turn
[82:49] it off. You can learn how to do that by
[82:51] doing things like non-sleep deep rest,
[82:53] some long exhale breathing, simple
[82:55] self-directed zero-cost tools that help
[82:58] adjust your autonomic nervous system to
[83:00] be more what we call parasympathetic,
[83:01] more rest and digest. Just long exhales.
[83:04] Might not work the first time, but over
[83:06] time these become very effective tools
[83:08] to self-direct the shift from forward
[83:10] center of mass to flat-footed, just kind
[83:12] of laying back, back on your heels, and
[83:14] there you go, you're off to sleep. When
[83:15] you wake up in the morning, some people
[83:17] are just depleted. Maybe you didn't
[83:18] sleep enough, but learning to get
[83:20] forward center of mass shouldn't
[83:22] require, you know, excess caffeine and
[83:25] stimulants and super loud music and uh
[83:29] you know, a shocking text or email.
[83:31] Ideally, you can transition pretty
[83:32] quickly into being forward center of
[83:34] mass, but not full tilt forward center
[83:36] of mass. Why do I say this? I think for
[83:38] anyone who seeks to be successful in any
[83:40] domain, academics, business, creative
[83:42] endeavors, whatever,
[83:44] if you want to have a long arc life and
[83:46] a long arc career,
[83:47] you
[83:49] really strive to control these
[83:51] transition states. And when I say
[83:53] control, all it really takes is paying
[83:55] attention to them.
[83:56] And paying attention to the fact that
[83:57] yes, some people just have inherently
[83:59] more energy. They can do every single
[84:01] workout at max output, then shower,
[84:03] they're talking in the gym, then they're
[84:04] off to the Some people are like that.
[84:05] Some people,
[84:06] like myself, if I give 100% to something
[84:09] in the morning, by the afternoon, I'm a
[84:10] little bit depleted. So, I require a 10
[84:14] or 20-minute non-sleep deep rest or a
[84:16] nap or just some quiet long exhale
[84:18] breathing, maybe a little bit of
[84:19] caffeine, which I'm drinking now. I
[84:20] mean, there's nothing wrong with healthy
[84:22] stimulants, provided they're consumed in
[84:24] moderation. Maybe an energy drink, those
[84:26] can be great, too,
[84:28] for some people. And then,
[84:30] you know, really going like full tilt,
[84:32] focusing one's attention. And then
[84:34] afterwards, taking a few moments, just
[84:36] moments to downshift. I think we hear so
[84:39] much about the power of meditation or
[84:40] non-sleep deep rest or ice baths. What
[84:42] do What do cold plunges and cold showers
[84:44] do? They stimulate the release of what?
[84:46] The catecholamines, dopamine,
[84:48] epinephrine, norepinephrine, long
[84:49] duration release. That's why it's
[84:51] useful, in my opinion. For all the
[84:53] debate about deliberate cold exposure,
[84:55] does it increase metabolism? Does it
[84:57] not? The answer seems to be probably not
[84:58] much. But it's absolutely clear that it
[85:02] causes a huge increase in adrenaline,
[85:05] dopamine, and norepinephrine that are
[85:08] very long-lasting, and that makes you
[85:11] feel great, especially when you get out
[85:12] of the cold. And I think that's the
[85:14] value of it. It also saves you on your
[85:15] heating bill. Like you don't have to
[85:17] have a cold plunge, you take a cold
[85:18] shower. Nobody likes it, but the point
[85:20] is you get out and you feel different.
[85:22] It's a state shift. So, that's great,
[85:25] but you don't want to do it to excess,
[85:27] because then, you know, for instance,
[85:29] people always say, "How long should I go
[85:30] in the cold plunge or cold shower?" And
[85:32] I say, "Do it the minimum amount, so
[85:34] that you get the effect that you're
[85:35] seeking, which is to be more alert and
[85:37] motivated." I have a friend, he did 30
[85:39] minutes, for some reason, naked. He
[85:41] said, "I did 30 minutes naked in the
[85:42] cold plunge, and then I got sick, and
[85:43] I'm feeling really low." And I'm like,
[85:44] "Because you did 30 minutes." I mean, I
[85:46] don't know about the naked part, what
[85:47] that had to do with it. He had to throw
[85:48] that in there, he's kind of an extreme
[85:50] guy. And
[85:52] I said, "How about 1 minute? How about
[85:55] 30 seconds? How about don't even pay
[85:56] attention to the time. Just get in and
[85:59] stay in as long as until you want to get
[86:02] out, and then push through that barrier,
[86:04] and then get out." That might be a
[86:06] minute, might be 3 minutes.
[86:08] You know, protect yourself, be safe, but
[86:10] just learn to overcome some challenge
[86:13] and then get out. You know, we have this
[86:14] fixation that more is better, and more
[86:18] is not better. You want the minimal
[86:20] effective dose, maybe a little bit more,
[86:22] because we don't know where minimal is.
[86:23] People say, "How many sets in the gym?"
[86:25] Is it, you know, now it's like all about
[86:26] the volume hypertrophy or like I've
[86:28] always fairly low recovery quotient. So,
[86:31] for me, I like to do couple warm-ups, a
[86:33] few hard sets, two or three hard sets,
[86:35] another exercise, two or three hard
[86:36] sets. That's it for that muscle group,
[86:38] move on. People always say, "Well,
[86:40] volume is where it's Okay, great, but
[86:41] when I do 16 to 20 sets per week per
[86:44] muscle group, I'll tell you, I I'm
[86:46] depleted. It doesn't work for me. And I
[86:49] sort of um
[86:50] Well, I'll just be honest, I kind of
[86:51] chuckle at the exercise scientists who
[86:53] say, "Well, this is the way it is in
[86:54] this study." Great. That's not how it
[86:56] works for me. And even though I'm a
[86:58] scientist and I trust data, I also trust
[87:00] my own experience. And no one's going to
[87:02] tell me that it's placebo, because it's
[87:04] what's worked for me. So, I think that
[87:06] you have to find what your capabilities
[87:07] are, and I do think if you look at dog
[87:10] breeds, of which I'm obsessed by,
[87:12] if you go to a dog show, which everyone
[87:14] should go to a dog show once, but don't
[87:16] watch the show, go behind the show where
[87:19] you see all the different dog breeds.
[87:20] What you'll see is what I saw the first
[87:21] time I did that.
[87:23] You have dogs where they're wagging
[87:24] their tail all the time. They're super
[87:26] excited, they're alert, you can see
[87:27] their eyes, right? They're just
[87:29] bright-eyed.
[87:30] You can see the Great Danes.
[87:33] They're super still. And then my
[87:35] favorite breed, and the reason I own
[87:37] them, is the bulldog. The s- essence of
[87:41] economy of effort. They don't even lift
[87:43] their head off the ground. You walk
[87:45] over, you can pet them, they'll like
[87:46] look up at you, they might wink. Very
[87:48] still animals. Very powerful, but very
[87:50] still animals. Now, I'm not wired like
[87:52] that, as you're probably getting the
[87:53] impression. I have a little bit more
[87:54] spontaneous movement, etc. So, I need a
[87:56] lot of mental and physical stimulation
[87:58] in order to be happy, in order to feel
[88:00] fulfilled. So, for me, there was a lot
[88:03] of work, and I still do a lot of work in
[88:04] order to learn how to downshift, take it
[88:06] down, become a good sleeper, become a
[88:08] good resetter, reset myself during the
[88:10] middle of the day with things like
[88:11] non-sleep deep rest, which for me has
[88:13] been one of the most powerful tools, or
[88:15] long exhale breathing, to just
[88:17] bring myself down. Other people, they
[88:20] tend to have a little bit less energy
[88:21] than life demands of them. So, they need
[88:22] to do a bit more cold shower, a little
[88:25] bit more caffeine, but then those people
[88:27] probably need a little bit more rest.
[88:29] They're like the bulldogs of life. I
[88:31] think even though we're all the same
[88:32] species, just like dogs, there's a lot
[88:33] of variation there. So, you have to know
[88:36] thyself, as the oracle said.
[88:38] Understanding a little bit about the
[88:39] catecholamines, understanding that
[88:41] certain things like exercise,
[88:43] deliberate cold exposure,
[88:45] stimulants like caffeine and
[88:47] prescription drugs like Adderall, etc.,
[88:49] s- powerfully cause the release of these
[88:52] catecholamines, dopamine, epinephrine,
[88:54] and norepinephrine, leading to big
[88:55] increases in energy and focus, but then
[88:57] always, always, always there's a cost, a
[88:59] trough that follows. Accept that. Relax
[89:03] through it.
[89:04] Then return to baseline and then go
[89:06] forward. Or avoid those things
[89:09] altogether. I'm not telling people what
[89:10] to do. Obviously, the prescription drug
[89:12] thing in particular can be, you know,
[89:13] problematic for some people, even and
[89:16] And certainly, I'm not a fan of drugs of
[89:17] abuse like cocaine amphetamine.
[89:19] Absolutely categorically never done
[89:20] them, never will.
[89:23] And then other people who tend to veer
[89:25] toward, you know, being hyper-activated.
[89:28] A lot of spontaneous movement. These
[89:29] people tend to be a little bit thinner,
[89:31] a little bit leaner, or just have a ton
[89:32] of natural energy.
[89:34] Um these people should really learn to
[89:35] incorporate more kind of
[89:37] what I would call calming and relaxing
[89:39] practices. Maybe a bit more sauna than
[89:41] cold plunge. Maybe don't crank the sauna
[89:43] to 2 20. You know, I find myself doing
[89:46] that. I'm like, just relax. Like enjoy
[89:48] the sauna. And so, I think the key to a
[89:50] good life and a productive life is again
[89:52] to learn to master the transition
[89:54] states, understand some of the biology,
[89:56] and to really
[89:59] know yourself not just your natural
[90:02] tendency more bulldog-like versus, you
[90:04] know, uh I don't know pitbulls always
[90:05] have their tail going the last
[90:06] spontaneous movement. Uh there are other
[90:08] breeds as well. But also know that on
[90:10] any given day you may be more or less
[90:13] rested. You might be more or less
[90:14] depleted from life experience. And kind
[90:16] of recognize where you're at and figure
[90:18] out what's optimal for that day.
[90:21] In fact, I forget who the guy is. He's
[90:23] on Instagram and and there are a lot of
[90:24] self-help account out at then there are
[90:26] a lot of self-help accounts out there,
[90:28] but one of the best things that um I've
[90:30] heard recently and I tried to
[90:31] incorporate it in uh into my life. In
[90:33] fact, it's in my notebook is when I wake
[90:35] up in the morning I sort of take stock
[90:37] of where I am in terms of how rested I
[90:39] am. I certainly take stock of what I
[90:40] need to do that day. And then I ask,
[90:43] what's something that I can do to make
[90:45] my life that day and the life of others
[90:51] better.
[90:52] Sometimes that means rest a little bit
[90:53] more. Sometimes that means push a little
[90:55] bit more. Sometimes that means call a
[90:57] relative that you haven't spoken to. But
[90:59] thinking about how to make things better
[91:00] on the time scale of a day
[91:03] for oneself and for others, I think is
[91:05] what's manageable. And it's what's
[91:06] realistic. And it takes this whole
[91:08] concept of protocols and biohacking and
[91:10] prescription drugs and supplements and
[91:12] workouts and it and it brings a
[91:14] real-world perspective to it.
[91:16] So, I think we're living in the um in
[91:18] the time of
[91:19] kind of um
[91:21] almost avatars of these different
[91:23] things. Like I think about David Goggins
[91:24] who I know well I've well at
[91:27] from the perspective of co-worker,
[91:29] right? Where I'm like I consider him a
[91:30] friend, but we've never hung out outside
[91:32] of the work context. But I first met
[91:34] David back in 2016. And I'll tell you
[91:36] he's always that way. At least when I've
[91:38] interacted with him.
[91:39] He's
[91:41] always been, you know,
[91:42] forward center of mass. He was late in
[91:45] the day on a work This was a thing in
[91:47] Silicon Valley. He was down in San Jose.
[91:49] Um Santa Clara San Jose area. In I
[91:51] believe it was 2016 and we had been
[91:54] working all day in this part of this
[91:56] consult for this company.
[91:57] And in the afternoon, you know, there
[91:59] was like, do we take a break? Should we
[92:00] push? He's like, oh, we push. We're
[92:02] going to do this. And I thought, wow,
[92:03] like this guy's intense. And he was
[92:05] changing cuz he was going to run to the
[92:06] airport, but not
[92:08] run to the airport in an Uber
[92:10] or drive to the airport. He meant run to
[92:13] the airport.
[92:14] And he did. So, you know, he's forward
[92:16] center of mass. He clearly has the
[92:17] energy or he's found the energy. Can you
[92:20] train that? Can you raise your sort of
[92:22] baseline dopamine level? Um Or are they
[92:24] two separate questions?
[92:27] It's a great question. I don't know that
[92:28] we have the answer. I think you can if
[92:30] you become more economical about
[92:33] whatever
[92:35] dopamine or other neurochemicals you
[92:37] happen to harbor inside. We know there's
[92:39] a lot of genetic and individual
[92:41] variation to these things.
[92:42] You know,
[92:43] there's a joke among parents, right?
[92:45] Like how they come out is how they stay.
[92:47] Like the the mellow kid, the mellow baby
[92:48] that didn't cry much. The happy baby
[92:50] remains the happy person. I you know,
[92:52] there are circumstances that can alter
[92:53] that. Versus the fussy baby that's
[92:55] always fussy as even as an adult. You
[92:57] know, parents talk this way, but parents
[92:58] say all sorts of things. Um but you
[93:01] know, I know people for instance like
[93:02] Rick Rubin for for instance who is
[93:06] very high energy, but very calm. It's
[93:10] part of Rick's magic. He knows how to
[93:12] regulate and control his energy. He has
[93:14] this uncanny capacity to get near things
[93:17] in particular um art, music, and to
[93:21] experience them, really feel them, but
[93:24] not get absorbed by it.
[93:25] Not feel
[93:27] at least to my my knowledge depleted by
[93:29] it. Some people get kind of absorbed by
[93:31] things and then depleted. Is it like the
[93:33] introvert extrovert conversation as
[93:35] well? Because two people can be in the
[93:36] same room and I I mean I'm I consider
[93:38] myself to be a bit of an extrovert
[93:40] sorry, introvert where if I stand in a
[93:41] room for 2 3 hours doing small talk, I I
[93:45] I the way I describe it is like my brain
[93:47] feels fried. Mhm. Whereas my assistant
[93:49] Sophie, it's like you've poured fuel
[93:51] into her. Yeah. Uh I'm similar to you
[93:54] and um I have an ex-girlfriend who loved
[93:57] parties. She would just get so much
[93:59] energy from parties. And I like certain
[94:00] parties, but I like the the small
[94:02] conversation I might have at a party is
[94:04] um
[94:04] so that resonates with me. I think we
[94:07] can shift
[94:09] well,
[94:10] to answer the introvert extrovert
[94:11] question,
[94:13] I do think that some people get energy
[94:15] from social interactions, other people
[94:16] less so. But I know people who are quite
[94:18] quiet who like social interactions.
[94:21] They're just more an observer in those
[94:23] interactions as opposed to a
[94:24] participant. The introvert extrovert
[94:26] thing also, at least my understanding of
[94:28] the science is that it depends a bit on
[94:30] how quickly you fill up
[94:32] with social engagement. Like I I like a
[94:34] good party, but after a couple hours I'm
[94:37] like done. You know, and other people
[94:38] they can just go go go go go go. They
[94:40] get more energy from it.
[94:43] I think,
[94:44] you know,
[94:45] we think of Goggins as kind of a an
[94:47] iconic example because he is of somebody
[94:49] who is capable of pushing himself
[94:51] regardless of what the internal
[94:53] narratives might be. That's my sense
[94:55] having spoken to him about it on my
[94:56] podcast and observed him on social media
[94:58] and other podcasts.
[95:00] Some people like Jocko Willink embody
[95:02] the
[95:03] don't even think about it. You do it
[95:04] because it's 4:30 in the morning and at
[95:06] 4:30 in the morning you work out. Like
[95:08] don't think, do.
[95:09] Um whereas when I think of David, I
[95:11] think of many things, but in particular
[95:14] about overcoming the voice in the mind
[95:17] that's trying to pull you down and
[95:18] defeating that. In fact, having multiple
[95:20] representations of self in the brain,
[95:22] which is a fascinating thing unto
[95:23] itself. And then when I think about
[95:25] Rick,
[95:26] I think, you know, Rick is I
[95:28] iconic in my mind for his sense of
[95:31] creativity, his ability to sense
[95:33] what is truly new and unique. He has
[95:36] incredible taste, right? To really be
[95:39] able to sense like this is new and
[95:40] different and exciting. And he seems to
[95:42] understand
[95:44] without trying to seek what people are
[95:46] going to like, what people inevitably
[95:48] love.
[95:50] So, that's his one of his many
[95:52] superpowers.
[95:53] And everyone has their superpower. Those
[95:56] are just so extremes. I think of Lex
[95:58] Friedman as
[96:00] somebody who
[96:01] is so thoughtful.
[96:04] And
[96:04] I mean, I don't think people really
[96:05] understand just how hard Lex thinks
[96:08] about the tragedies of the world, the
[96:11] darkness in the world, but also the love
[96:13] that's in the world. I mean, he really
[96:16] like hyper-affiliates
[96:18] with what's happening
[96:19] in his mind. And he's able to really
[96:21] like absorb himself in that. And you can
[96:23] feel like his his like he gets right up
[96:26] next to the fire, like right up next to
[96:28] these things.
[96:29] And
[96:30] I think he represents
[96:32] kind of iconic example of
[96:35] an explorer who will look anywhere even
[96:37] if people are going to
[96:39] give him a hard time for it. But I think
[96:40] mostly people celebrate him for it.
[96:42] You know, so I think you know, different
[96:44] people have different lenses on life and
[96:46] different capacities. I think if one
[96:48] wants to increase their baseline level
[96:50] of dopamine, I think it's important to
[96:53] regulate those peaks and troughs.
[96:56] I'm not
[96:57] a believer in like never having peaks in
[96:59] dopamine. A great wedding party. Like
[97:01] I've been to some weddings where you
[97:02] just like partied all night. Or great
[97:05] concerts. I'm actually a huge fan. It's
[97:07] kind of a
[97:08] uh
[97:09] genre of music I don't know much about,
[97:10] but I've always loved that band James.
[97:12] Do you know the band? We are James. Uh
[97:14] it's so good. Okay, I'm going to lose
[97:15] punk points for saying this, but
[97:18] best live shows ever. Just the best live
[97:21] shows I've ever seen. And I know there
[97:23] are and I and I know there are a lot of
[97:24] different ideas about best live shows
[97:26] based on genres of music. I just It's
[97:28] like the best party you've ever been to.
[97:31] Mhm. And
[97:32] I
[97:33] get a lift in energy that lasts 2 3 days
[97:36] from that. I don't consume any
[97:37] substances at those shows. They happen
[97:41] very seldom, but when I've gone for 2 or
[97:42] 3 days I feel like a changed person.
[97:44] It's a market shift in neurochemical
[97:46] state. And I don't feel a trough
[97:48] afterwards. So, I want to be very clear.
[97:50] There are certain things like
[97:52] celebrations, concerts, they seem to
[97:55] give us these big surges in
[97:56] neurochemicals, but they don't leave us
[97:59] depleted. And I'm very intrigued by
[98:00] these experiences.
[98:02] Because when I look to some examples, I
[98:05] have some friends who've been very
[98:06] successful in the tech sector and
[98:07] finance sector. They make a lot of
[98:09] money. And I always worry about them
[98:11] afterwards. Inevitably they end up
[98:14] depressed, not knowing what they want to
[98:15] do. So, I always encourage them to keep
[98:17] working. In fact, the happiest people in
[98:20] tech and finance are the ones that keep
[98:21] working even after they get rich.
[98:24] So, the people I see who are very happy
[98:26] are the people who
[98:28] take stock of their natural levels of
[98:30] energy, curiosity, motivation. You know,
[98:32] we could say dopamine, but that's kind
[98:34] of a surrogate for a bunch of other
[98:36] things. And it's incomplete, right?
[98:38] There are other chemicals involved. But
[98:40] for sake of conversation, we could say
[98:41] dopamine, catecholamines, epinephrine.
[98:44] And they sort of know what they're
[98:45] capable of on a consistent basis. I
[98:48] think one of the best pieces of advice
[98:49] that I ever got was from a neurologist
[98:51] by the name of Bob Knight when I was a
[98:52] graduate student. He said, figure out
[98:54] how much work you can
[98:57] over the course of the next 4 to 5 years
[98:59] on a consistent basis cuz it's going to
[99:01] change as you get older. Might not even
[99:03] go down.
[99:05] So, for instance, I know that I can work
[99:07] a good solid 12 hours a day.
[99:10] That's me. 12 hours a day.
[99:12] Five maybe six days a week, but I like
[99:14] one full day off per week. I I just like
[99:17] that. Typically, it's Sunday for me.
[99:19] I'll do some exercise and some other
[99:21] things, but if I try and go 15 hours a
[99:24] day or 12 hours a day 7 days a week,
[99:27] I'm going to run aground. For other
[99:29] people, they need to work less. And now
[99:30] some people will say, "Okay, but do you
[99:32] have kids and this and that?" I'm not
[99:33] saying what work means. It could be
[99:35] career, it could be family, or both, but
[99:38] I'm not somebody who has an infinite
[99:39] amount of energy, but I have a lot of
[99:41] energy. If you have less energy, you can
[99:43] do things like try and get great sleep,
[99:45] try and eat
[99:47] as well as you possibly can. You may
[99:48] have to do more to get more energy, but
[99:50] sort of have to accept your own
[99:52] um kind of baseline state.
[99:55] And I think
[99:56] I certainly know many people who are
[99:57] like mellower, calmer,
[100:00] have {quote} {unquote} less energy.
[100:01] They're just more efficient with that
[100:03] energy. They place it correctly.
[100:05] They're not wasting their energy. I know
[100:08] people that can scroll Instagram all the
[100:09] time, talk about what's going on on
[100:10] Twitter, watch three podcast, program,
[100:13] and do a million things, and like
[100:15] they're fine. So, I think we have to
[100:16] know where our groove is, and that we
[100:19] can deviate from that about 15 to 20%,
[100:22] but anything more extreme than that,
[100:24] we're going to end up in trouble. I
[100:26] think a lot of the reason why people are
[100:27] curious about dopamine is because for
[100:29] ultimately, they want to be more
[100:31] productive or effective at some goal
[100:32] they have in their life. So, it might be
[100:34] building a business, it could be some I
[100:36] could be a podcast, whatever. So, taking
[100:37] everything you know about dopamine and
[100:39] how it works, if you were giving me
[100:41] advice on how I could be a better
[100:43] entrepreneur, podcaster, whatever, um
[100:47] the first thing I got from you was
[100:48] really about this idea of transitioning
[100:49] between states, and also allowing time
[100:51] for my reserves to replenish after a
[100:54] high dopamine activity. Mhm. Um is there
[100:57] anything else that I should be thinking
[100:58] about? Yeah, so we could um
[101:00] operationalize this in a very clear way.
[101:03] Get enough sleep for you. For some
[101:05] people, it's 6 hours, for some people,
[101:06] it's 8 hours. I'd like to dispel the
[101:08] myth, even though my friend Matt Walker
[101:09] will probably get upset at me for saying
[101:11] this, not everyone needs 8 or 9 hours of
[101:13] sleep.
[101:14] Okay? I got 6 last night. Okay? I
[101:16] actually went to bed at midnight last
[101:17] night. Oh, excuse me, I got 6 hours and
[101:19] 45 minutes last night. I went to bed at
[101:21] midnight, which is kind of late for me.
[101:23] Woke up at 6:45.
[101:25] But, get enough sleep. If you wake up in
[101:27] the morning and you can't get more sleep
[101:29] for whatever reason, can't fall back
[101:31] asleep, or you have to get out of bed,
[101:33] if you do not feel rested, I recommend
[101:36] doing a 10- or 20-minute non-sleep deep
[101:38] rest or yoga nidra protocol. They are
[101:40] available zero cost on YouTube. You
[101:42] could put NSDR my name if you want to
[101:44] listen to me do one. You could put NSDR
[101:47] Kelly Boys does wonderful yoga nidras.
[101:49] She has a very pleasant voice if you
[101:51] prefer a female voice.
[101:52] There's some wonderful yoga nidras by a
[101:54] woman named Kamini Desai. Anyway, these
[101:57] are all zero cost scripts that are
[101:58] available on YouTube.
[101:59] What is that? So, you um so, non-sleep
[102:01] deep rest
[102:03] Cuz you did one today. You did one
[102:04] today.
[102:05] I did one today on the way here. Yeah.
[102:07] Here's what we know it does. Replenishes
[102:08] baseline levels of dopamine in the basal
[102:11] ganglia. Prepares you for action, both
[102:13] mental and physical action.
[102:15] Can indeed help offset some of the sleep
[102:18] that maybe you didn't get, but you
[102:20] needed.
[102:21] We know that the brain goes into a kind
[102:23] of pseudo sleep in this state.
[102:25] And there's also some evidence that yoga
[102:27] nidra and similar practices can improve
[102:30] rates of learning. Okay, so that's sort
[102:32] of the the benefits.
[102:34] What is it? It involves what most people
[102:36] will call meditation, but it's different
[102:38] than meditation. You lie down. You could
[102:40] do it seated as well, but you lie down,
[102:42] eyes closed, and you do long exhale
[102:44] breathing.
[102:46] When we exhale, we actually slow our
[102:48] heart rate down. I could talk about how
[102:49] this is this is through respiratory
[102:51] sinus arrhythmia.
[102:53] This is a relationship between the vagus
[102:54] nerve and the beating of the heart, but
[102:57] in any case, when we inhale,
[102:59] our heart actually speeds up its beat
[103:02] slightly, and when we exhale, it slows
[103:04] down its beat slightly. So, it involves
[103:06] a lot of long exhale breathing.
[103:08] It involves a body scan where you
[103:10] deliberately relax different aspects of
[103:13] your body. So, your first your feet,
[103:15] then your legs, then your hands. It's
[103:17] sort of a body scan of sorts with long
[103:18] exhale breathing, and it takes you into
[103:20] a state that's pseudo sleep. You're
[103:22] somewhere between sleep and awake.
[103:24] Now, the beauty of NSDR and yoga nidra
[103:27] is that
[103:28] part of the instruction at the beginning
[103:30] is to stay awake. Now, if you fall
[103:32] asleep, it's okay. Just make sure you
[103:34] set an alarm if you have to go to work
[103:35] or do something else. But,
[103:38] by staying awake,
[103:40] while being very relaxed, it seems that
[103:43] the nervous system can continue to stay
[103:45] in a sleep-like state enough that you
[103:47] replenish some of these neurochemicals
[103:49] that prepare you for cognitive and
[103:50] physical action.
[103:52] Now, there are 10-minute NSDRs, there
[103:54] are 20-minute NSDRs, there are even
[103:56] hour-long yoga nidras and things of that
[103:58] sort. So, it depends on how much time
[103:59] you have before you need to get up. So,
[104:01] if you sleep well the night before, you
[104:03] wake up after 6-8 hours, and you're
[104:04] ready to go, boom, go.
[104:06] But, if you're not, I highly recommend
[104:08] doing a 10-, 20-, or 30-minute NSDR
[104:11] practice. You will find that you will be
[104:13] far more rested. You will feel far more
[104:17] mentally and physically vigorous when
[104:18] you emerge from that. It's remarkable.
[104:20] And Matt Walker's laboratory and I are
[104:24] gearing up to do some studies on this to
[104:26] figure out exactly what's happening. Is
[104:27] the brain really going into sleep, or is
[104:29] it something, you know, entirely
[104:31] different? We don't quite know yet.
[104:32] In any event,
[104:34] it most certainly works, and
[104:37] soon we'll know the exact mechanism in
[104:38] the brain, but this dopamine re- but
[104:40] this re-upping of dopamine is very, very
[104:42] clear from the existing studies.
[104:45] So, what are you doing there? You're
[104:46] essentially filling the reservoir for
[104:48] the day of activities. Okay?
[104:50] Then, I recommend hydration, which has a
[104:53] profound effect on energy levels. So, 16
[104:56] to 32 oz of water.
[104:59] People debate, drink out of plastic or
[105:00] don't drink out of plastic, do you have
[105:02] to purify your water, etc. You know,
[105:03] listen, it depends on budget and
[105:05] interest and level of paranoia. I drink
[105:08] a filtered water. I tend to drink out of
[105:11] ceramic or glass, but I am somebody who
[105:14] will occasionally drink out of a plastic
[105:16] water bottle. I'm I'm not neurotic about
[105:18] that sort of thing, but look, if you
[105:19] are, fine. And we could all do well to
[105:21] limit the amount of plastic waste in the
[105:23] oceans. So, there you go.
[105:25] Hydrate.
[105:27] Then, some people, like myself, do very
[105:29] well to get some exercise and sunlight,
[105:33] ideally simultaneously, but certainly
[105:35] get some sunlight
[105:37] and exercise prior to caffeine. Some
[105:39] people do, some people don't. Okay?
[105:42] I also understand and totally support
[105:44] people who just want their coffee or tea
[105:46] first thing in the morning. There's no
[105:47] rule that says that you can't do that.
[105:49] But, for me, what I would do is I'd get
[105:51] up, use the restroom if you need to,
[105:53] hydrate, and then get some bright light
[105:56] in your eyes, ideally from sunlight
[105:57] first thing in the morning. Why? Well,
[106:00] there's a whole story about circadian
[106:01] biology here that I could tell you, but
[106:04] I've done that many times before.
[106:06] Suffice to say that getting bright
[106:08] light, ideally from sunlight in your
[106:10] eyes, even through cloud cover. So, if
[106:12] you're in the UK, even through cloud
[106:13] cover,
[106:14] increases the amount of cortisol release
[106:16] in your brain and body markedly.
[106:19] That is a good, healthy increase in
[106:21] cortisol that is associated with the
[106:23] transition to waking up. So, we know
[106:26] that bright light in the morning,
[106:27] especially from sunlight, increases
[106:28] daytime mood, focus, and alertness, and
[106:30] it will improve your sleep later that
[106:33] night. Can I ask then, cuz I woke up in
[106:35] a hotel this morning, and because of
[106:36] you, I now think about sunlight a lot.
[106:38] So, I woke up, and I have a balcony in
[106:40] the hotel, but I can't see the sun, cuz
[106:43] the sun is on the other side of the
[106:44] hotel. Right. So, you're west-facing in
[106:45] the morning, and it's coming up in the
[106:47] east. So, here's the ideal circumstance.
[106:48] You go outside, you take your sunglasses
[106:51] off. Eyeglasses and contacts are fine,
[106:53] even if they have UV protection. You
[106:55] face east. It's a clear morning. The sun
[106:58] is there.
[106:59] Maybe it's even rising across the
[107:01] horizon, and you watch it for 5-10
[107:03] minutes, and then you go back inside and
[107:04] carry about your day. Here's the
[107:06] realistic situation. You wake up, you're
[107:08] in a hotel or an apartment, you've got
[107:09] things to do, your phone is on, etc.
[107:12] What do you do? Get out onto the
[107:14] balcony, get some natural light. The
[107:15] ambient light, as we say, is still far
[107:17] brighter outside, even on an overcast
[107:19] day, than it would be indoors with the
[107:21] brightest possible overhead lights. Now,
[107:24] there are seasonal affective disorder
[107:26] lights, so-called SAD lights, that are
[107:28] designed to generate 10,000 lux or more,
[107:30] and simulate sunlight. There's really no
[107:32] simulation for sunlight, but those
[107:34] special lights are a special
[107:36] circumstance.
[107:37] Here's what I know for sure, and
[107:39] everyone will agree, that it's much
[107:40] brighter outside, even on an overcast
[107:42] morning, than it is at night.
[107:45] Okay? You can see, even on an overcast
[107:47] day, typically without a flashlight.
[107:50] That tells you there's a lot of photons,
[107:51] a lot of light energy outside. So, the
[107:54] best thing to do is just get outside,
[107:55] especially on overcast days, and get
[107:57] some ambient light in your eyes. When I
[108:00] say view morning sunlight as soon as
[108:02] possible after waking up, two questions
[108:04] always emerge. First is, what happens if
[108:05] I wake up before the sun comes out?
[108:07] Well, listen, unless you have powers
[108:08] that I'm not aware of, you're going to
[108:09] have to wait for the sun to come out.
[108:11] Okay? I just don't have any way to make
[108:12] it rise any faster for you. So, and if
[108:15] you do, please like email me and let me
[108:17] know how that's done. But,
[108:19] the point here is that on an overcast
[108:22] day, or even if you're not looking in
[108:24] the direction that the sun happens to be
[108:26] rising,
[108:27] you're still getting sunlight. The
[108:29] photon energy is what arrives at your
[108:31] eyes, eventually triggers activation of
[108:34] cells in the neural retina, this
[108:36] pie-crust-like tissue that lines the
[108:37] back of your eyes, and signals to your
[108:39] brain it's time to wake up.
[108:41] So, when I say view morning sunlight, a
[108:42] lot of people think they need to see the
[108:43] sunrise across the sunset. I don't mean
[108:46] you need to see the sun as an object.
[108:48] You need to see the light emitting from
[108:50] the sun. And even on overcast days,
[108:52] that's there. Now, on densely overcast
[108:54] day in the thick of winter in the UK or
[108:57] Scandinavia, it can be quite dark, even
[108:59] in the morning and throughout the day.
[109:01] In that case, you'll really want to
[109:03] strive to get some bright artificial
[109:04] light exposure in the morning and
[109:06] throughout the day as well.
[109:08] But this business of getting some light,
[109:10] we can put light in capital letters, not
[109:12] necessarily seeing the sun as an object,
[109:13] but getting sunlight in your eyes early
[109:15] in the day increases that cortisol peak
[109:17] and its duration. This is
[109:19] great for your immune system. It's great
[109:22] for alertness. And when we hear
[109:24] cortisol, normally people think bad. Oh,
[109:25] cortisol is bad. No, cortisol is
[109:27] terrific. You need cortisol. Trust me,
[109:28] people who have deficits in cortisol
[109:30] production
[109:31] or regulation have all sorts of
[109:32] problems. We're talking about getting a
[109:34] healthy big cortisol early in the day
[109:38] that carries your energy until the
[109:40] evening and then the cortisol drops off.
[109:42] What about shift workers?
[109:44] Shift workers,
[109:46] God bless them. They're essential for so
[109:48] much of what we do and consume and need,
[109:49] so we have to be grateful to them.
[109:52] They unfortunately are in a very
[109:54] compromised health state. Often they
[109:57] have digestive issues, mood issues. It's
[109:59] a real problem and it's very dependent
[110:01] on the particular shift. The worst case
[110:03] scenario for them is the swing shift
[110:05] where they're working days, then they're
[110:06] working nights on the order of, you
[110:08] know, 3 days on, 3 days off, etc. It's
[110:10] terrible. We know that health outcomes
[110:13] for shift workers are so much worse. We
[110:15] know that a few things can help. For
[110:16] instance, regular meal and exercise
[110:19] times. Okay. We know that red light, and
[110:22] here I'm not talking about red light
[110:23] therapy, I'm talking about
[110:25] working under lights that are a bit more
[110:28] um red shifted, long wavelength shifted
[110:30] as we say, as opposed to bright
[110:31] fluorescent lights can help reduce some
[110:34] of the cortisol release associated with
[110:36] shift work that occurs at the wrong
[110:38] times. This is a pretty nuanced topic um
[110:41] that again depends on the shift. Um
[110:43] ideally one doesn't work shifts their
[110:46] entire life.
[110:47] If you absolutely have to do shift work,
[110:50] go to your boss, tell them I said this.
[110:52] Try and stay on the same schedule, even
[110:54] if it's a nocturnal schedule, which is
[110:56] the most unhealthy schedule. Try and
[110:58] stay on the same schedule for at least 2
[110:59] weeks before shifting back to another
[111:01] schedule.
[111:03] If you're somebody who's
[111:05] required to stay up until 3:00 in the
[111:06] morning and then sleep until 11:00 a.m.,
[111:08] does that mean that viewing morning
[111:10] sunlight, your morning at 11:30 a.m. is
[111:12] not useful? No, it's still useful. Try
[111:15] and keep things as regular as possible.
[111:17] That's my advice. But for people who are
[111:19] on a typical, what we call diurnal,
[111:21] daytime active, as opposed to nocturnal,
[111:24] nighttime active schedule,
[111:26] this business of hydration, sunlight,
[111:28] movement, even if it's skipping rope for
[111:31] 5 minutes or jogging in place or just
[111:32] swinging one's arms or getting a little
[111:34] walk in in the morning,
[111:36] immensely beneficial.
[111:38] If you can do a full workout first thing
[111:40] in the morning, great. If you don't have
[111:41] time for that until later in the day,
[111:42] I'll be the first to say exercise
[111:45] when you can do it consistently. So, if
[111:47] it, you know, don't think that if you
[111:49] don't work out in the morning that you
[111:50] shouldn't do it later. We know
[111:51] everybody, for sake of longevity and
[111:54] immediate, I guess what we call health
[111:55] span and lifespan,
[111:57] and well-being for that matter, should
[111:59] be doing at least 2 or 3 days per week
[112:01] of resistance training of some sort.
[112:04] This is true for men and women
[112:06] and cardiovascular training in order to
[112:08] ensure healthy neuromuscular
[112:10] connections, brain health, heart health.
[112:13] This is just very, very clear. If you do
[112:15] that early in the day, fine. If you do
[112:17] that on your lunch hour, fine. If you do
[112:18] that in the evening, fine. Just make
[112:20] sure whatever you do in order to get
[112:22] that workout, whatever caffeine or
[112:23] pre-workout that you're taking
[112:25] doesn't inhibit your ability to get a
[112:27] great night's sleep because sleep is the
[112:29] ultimate restorative. It's what really
[112:32] is the foundation of mental health and
[112:33] physical health. And I can say, if you
[112:36] want to be, because this question
[112:37] started off, what can you do to be, you
[112:39] know, have the best dopamine system, the
[112:41] best energy, the best creativity,
[112:44] as you move through your day, notice
[112:46] your energy levels.
[112:48] E
[112:49] Well, certainly I believe that people
[112:51] should eat
[112:52] mostly non-processed or minimally
[112:54] processed foods. That's very clear,
[112:55] regardless of whether or not you're
[112:56] vegan, vegetarian, omnivore, or
[112:58] carnivore.
[112:59] And eat amounts and foods that allow you
[113:04] to have sufficient mental energy. So,
[113:05] for me, that largely means
[113:08] high-quality protein and fibrous
[113:10] vegetables and fruit throughout the day.
[113:13] What's your vice?
[113:14] Any carbohydrate with melted Parmesan
[113:18] cheese. So, thin-crust pizza, pasta with
[113:21] with uh Parmesan cheese, especially if
[113:23] there's like a diet Coke nearby,
[113:26] or oh goodness, I can just consume,
[113:28] consume, consume. It is very hard for me
[113:31] to hit my threshold with those things.
[113:32] This is a slight tangent, but I will
[113:33] return to this dopamine conversation.
[113:35] It's it's it's related, but when you
[113:37] have that
[113:38] thin-crust pizza or that, whatever food
[113:40] that spikes your dopamine. For me, I've
[113:42] got a bit of a sweet tooth, so that's my
[113:43] advice. Carrot cake or something like
[113:45] that.
[113:45] carrot cake's good. Especially if the
[113:47] ratio of the Yeah, it's ratio.
[113:49] to the cake part is set right. If it's
[113:51] too much frosting or too much cake, it
[113:54] yeah, exactly.
[113:55] Um no go. But if it's just the right
[113:57] ratio, So, if I I had that carrot cake
[113:59] yesterday, which no one knows about, I
[114:01] kept it to myself, but does that mean
[114:03] that I'm more likely, with the
[114:05] understanding of dopamine, to want
[114:06] carrot cake again tomorrow, the day
[114:08] after, because I've got into a bit of a
[114:10] carrot cake cycle? Cuz I think
[114:11] everybody, when they think about their
[114:12] relationship with sugar, understands
[114:14] that if they just laid off sugar for
[114:16] like 3 or 4 weeks, the craving seemed to
[114:18] die down.
[114:18] Yeah.
[114:19] It's an interesting question. I don't
[114:21] think we have the exact answer. Some
[114:22] would argue that we should have more of
[114:25] a kind of balanced relationship with
[114:27] food whereby if we really crave
[114:29] something that we should allow ourselves
[114:31] it, provided it's not some addictive
[114:32] substance or something. You don't You
[114:34] addicts relapse.
[114:35] Um here we're talking about food. We're
[114:37] not talking about drugs of abuse, etc.
[114:40] But is food not addictive in the same
[114:41] way? Well, food can be very compulsive.
[114:45] I think some people are addicted to
[114:47] food.
[114:48] Um I You know, I define addiction as a
[114:50] progressive narrowing of the things that
[114:52] bring you pleasure. We could probably
[114:54] attach to that,
[114:55] you know, the classic
[114:57] definition of addiction is where
[115:00] continued consumption or um engagement
[115:04] in a given activity is actually
[115:06] maladaptive for your life, all right? I
[115:07] mean, if you have four pieces of carrot
[115:09] cake this week, I doubt, given you the
[115:12] shape that you're in, it's going to
[115:13] shorten your life. You might not feel
[115:14] great,
[115:15] but it's not going to shorten your life.
[115:18] You're certainly not going to like lose
[115:20] your income um like somebody who's a
[115:22] gambling addict would. Um this kind of
[115:25] thing. You're not going to throw your
[115:25] life away or go rob somebody in order to
[115:27] get that carrot cake, although But but
[115:29] is it doing that? That And I'm pointing
[115:30] now at the dopamine wave thing. Am Am I
[115:32] having a dopamine crash?
[115:34] You are. And Anna Lembke describes this
[115:36] best. Um and you can do this experiment.
[115:37] It's kind of a fun experiment for you
[115:39] chocolate lovers.
[115:40] Abstain from chocolate for say a week.
[115:43] And then pick your favorite chocolate
[115:46] and take a little piece of that
[115:47] chocolate and put it in your mouth and
[115:49] taste it. And of course it will taste
[115:51] delicious. It'll taste wonderful.
[115:54] But if you notice very quickly,
[115:56] your brain shifts to
[115:59] a sense of wanting more.
[116:01] Not so much savoring the chocolate that
[116:03] you're eating, but wanting more. And
[116:05] you're thinking about, well, how much am
[116:06] I going to take? I'm going to take this
[116:07] square. Oh, that other square next to it
[116:08] broke off a little bit. Guess I got to
[116:09] eat that one, too. So, that's the
[116:11] dopamine system in action.
[116:13] And then what happens is
[116:15] you eat half the chocolate thing and you
[116:16] go, "Oh, I don't feel that good about
[116:18] it, but I kind of want more anyway."
[116:21] Why? Well, you're in that dopamine
[116:23] trough. The same amount of something is
[116:25] giving you diminishing returns. What's
[116:27] the way to make that chocolate take
[116:29] taste absolutely fantastic again?
[116:31] Abstain.
[116:33] Now, there's also an interesting
[116:34] phenomenon, and this is why I said I
[116:36] can't be exactly sure how to answer your
[116:38] question
[116:39] accurately, that is.
[116:41] I have several friends, just by way of
[116:43] example, who
[116:45] reached their 40s quite overweight, 50s
[116:47] quite overweight, 30 to 60 lb
[116:50] overweight. And they'd come to me and
[116:51] they'd say, "I want to lose weight."
[116:53] Every single one of them has been highly
[116:55] successful in rapidly losing that weight
[116:57] and keeping it off the following way,
[116:59] and I'm not a nutritionist. I say, "You
[117:01] can eat meat,
[117:03] fish,
[117:04] eggs,
[117:05] chicken, fruit, and vegetables, and
[117:07] that's it. And drink water and caffeine.
[117:10] And don't consume calories in
[117:11] beverages."
[117:12] And every single one of them lost
[117:15] 30, 60 lb and has kept it off. Now,
[117:17] Layne Norton and I, who are friends and
[117:19] colleagues in the health space,
[117:21] he'll say, "Well, they created a caloric
[117:23] deficit, and so they lost weight." I'd
[117:25] say, "Absolutely." I would also say, and
[117:27] I think Layne would probably agree,
[117:28] although there's no randomized control
[117:30] trial to prove this, that in eating that
[117:32] way, mostly whole, unprocessed, or
[117:34] minimally processed foods,
[117:37] they did several things as well. One is
[117:40] you start to learn the relationship
[117:41] between how something tastes, its
[117:43] caloric value, its
[117:45] micronutrient and macronutrient value.
[117:47] What do I mean? When you eat a steak,
[117:49] like let's say a 12-oz ribeye, if that's
[117:50] in your nutrition plan,
[117:53] meaning you allow yourself red meat.
[117:55] Let's say you eat that.
[117:57] You taste it. It's very savory.
[117:59] Hopefully it tastes really good. If it's
[118:00] cooked properly, it's a great cut.
[118:02] And your brain learns the relationship
[118:05] between steak and calories and nutrients
[118:07] and amino acids. There's this whole
[118:09] amino acid foraging hypothesis of
[118:11] nutrition. Then you eat fruit. You taste
[118:13] the fruit. You actually taste it. Now,
[118:14] this is far and away different than if
[118:15] you're consuming hoagie sandwiches and
[118:17] hamburgers and cheeseburgers. There's
[118:19] something about removing the bread.
[118:21] There's something about removing the
[118:22] pasta. There's something about removing
[118:24] those foods that I believe has nothing
[118:26] to do with those foods being bad. In
[118:27] fact, I love bread and pasta,
[118:28] high-quality bread and pasta, and I do
[118:30] consume those, but I'm not trying to
[118:31] lose weight,
[118:32] nor gain weight.
[118:34] When people eat that way, meat, fish,
[118:37] eggs, chicken, fruits and vegetables,
[118:38] and nothing else for a couple of months,
[118:41] what every single one of them says is,
[118:43] "Well, then we had this party,
[118:45] and, you know, the kids were having
[118:47] birthday cake, so I decided to allow
[118:48] myself a slice of cake." They ate it,
[118:51] and it tasted disgusting to them.
[118:53] Or they in some cases threw up, or they
[118:56] just felt like it was gross.
[118:58] Whatever positive association they had
[119:00] with it before, it no longer exists.
[119:02] And then they get right back on their
[119:05] let's call it diet and they continue
[119:07] along their way. And they're very
[119:08] relieved to learn that they actually
[119:10] enjoy healthy foods. I think that we can
[119:12] rewire, in fact we know that you can
[119:14] rewire your association between
[119:15] nutritive value, taste of food,
[119:17] calories, and micronutrients. And so
[119:20] when I hear about these highly
[119:21] restrictive elimination diets where
[119:22] people do only meat, which frankly does
[119:24] not seem healthy to me. I think some
[119:26] fiber from other sources is good,
[119:28] although I'm sure Paul Saladino will
[119:29] come after me, will probably with a
[119:31] drumstick or something. Jordan Peterson.
[119:33] Or Jordan
[119:34] Whatever Jordan's doing seems to be
[119:36] working for Jordan, so I'm not going to
[119:37] argue. People should do as they will,
[119:38] but you know, um
[119:40] I'm an omnivore and I enjoy that. But
[119:42] I think when people do elimination type
[119:44] diets
[119:45] the more important thing is that they're
[119:47] learning this association between taste
[119:50] and calories that seems to really work
[119:51] for them and the pleasure of eating
[119:54] certain foods and really dropping into
[119:56] the the
[119:58] quality and the taste of that food. When
[120:00] we crave a food and it's kind of an
[120:02] indulgence food, like chocolate or
[120:04] carrot cake or something it's more along
[120:07] this dopamine uh transition from peak to
[120:10] trough.
[120:12] Now, when I I love steak. My dad's
[120:13] Argentine, I'm half Argentine, so I love
[120:15] a great beef tenderloin or like a you
[120:18] know like I love red meat, but I don't
[120:20] eat two ribeyes. I eat one and I'm good.
[120:23] And so I think that there's something
[120:24] very satiating about high nutritive
[120:26] quality food that includes fruits and
[120:27] vegetables and the vegans have their
[120:29] choices and the vegetarians have their
[120:31] choices. And so so much of what we think
[120:33] about when we think about dopamine and
[120:34] food is yes, highly processed foods,
[120:37] candy, packaged goods, cookies, chips
[120:40] they drive this craving for more but
[120:44] people don't actually enjoy them that
[120:45] much. They just require them. Or at
[120:48] least they think they require them. So I
[120:50] encourage anyone who feels addicted to
[120:52] those foods to take a, you know, healthy
[120:56] approach when you consume enough
[120:57] calories, don't go on a crash diet, but
[120:59] try eating really high quality
[121:01] unprocessed or minimally processed foods
[121:03] for just a couple of weeks. At first
[121:05] it's murder. They just can't do it and
[121:07] then inevitably they call me and they
[121:09] say
[121:10] I feel so much better and I don't even
[121:12] want that stuff anymore. It's
[121:13] interesting how that then correlates
[121:14] with your own motivation. And I it's we
[121:18] fly out here to do this podcast and we
[121:19] come out sometimes for two weeks, three
[121:21] weeks, sometimes even four weeks and we
[121:22] all eat the same thing pretty much
[121:25] throughout the day for those four weeks.
[121:27] So it's almost a dietary intervention
[121:29] for me because when we finish recording,
[121:31] my food is going to be there and I know
[121:32] what it's going to be. It's going to be
[121:33] basically a salad with meat in it. So
[121:36] vegetables, etc. And so it becomes this
[121:38] like intervention. Going to LA is this
[121:39] dietary intervention. What happens is
[121:42] when I come here and have that salad
[121:44] every day with various different meats
[121:46] and various different vegetables every
[121:47] day is my motivation to go to the gym
[121:49] for some reason improves. Mhm. My sleep
[121:51] ends up improving and it's like my that
[121:53] one sort of dietary intervention has
[121:55] this really downstream impact on
[121:56] everything else. I get in the I get in
[121:58] the best shape of my life. I'm
[121:59] motivated. I feel good. I drive around
[122:01] It might also be the sunshine out here,
[122:02] but Mhm. And I just I I think people
[122:04] don't realize that even as you say a
[122:06] week or two having that dietary
[122:08] intervention, well intervention, cutting
[122:10] out the crap can have such a big
[122:13] reframing on your perception of food,
[122:15] how you experience it. And now I'm
[122:17] excited about the bloody salad. Yeah,
[122:18] it's wild how healthy foods become more
[122:21] attractive to us the more we consume
[122:23] them and the more we avoid unhealthy
[122:25] foods. I think also a lot of people
[122:27] don't know how great you can feel
[122:28] getting some morning sunlight, great
[122:30] sleep, eating nutritious food
[122:33] and once they do, once they experience
[122:35] that lift in energy and mood, it's
[122:38] kind of addictive in its own right. Mhm.
[122:40] Now, I also think it's important to not
[122:41] be too restrictive, right? You know,
[122:43] around the holidays or something I I
[122:44] mean I love a great slice of pie, like I
[122:46] do these things. I think if one gets
[122:48] enough movement then
[122:50] you're fine. Um you know
[122:53] if nothing else, this whole um kind of
[122:55] trend toward the use of these GLP-1
[122:58] glucagon-like peptide agonists like
[123:00] Ozempic and Mounjaro, if it's taught us
[123:01] anything, it's that people are obese
[123:04] because they
[123:05] consume too many calories. They just
[123:07] ingest too much relative to their
[123:08] activity levels. And here, in particular
[123:10] in the United States, people are walking
[123:12] and moving far less. Most people get no
[123:14] regular exercise and they consume about
[123:16] 3,500 calories per day on average, so
[123:18] they're just on a steady weight increase
[123:20] for most of their life.
[123:22] More activity, less food intake is
[123:24] fairly easy to accomplish if you do just
[123:27] a few subtle things. So there are these
[123:29] levers, these major levers like eating
[123:30] better. As you said, meat and salads. I
[123:32] mean it's one of the most satiating
[123:34] meals you can have. I also find that if
[123:37] I consume fewer carbohydrates during the
[123:38] day, this is just me, it runs
[123:40] countercurrent to most everything you'll
[123:41] read out there, but I like to fast
[123:44] essentially until about 11:00 or noon
[123:45] just cuz I'm not hungry. I like to
[123:47] exercise in the morning. But then I'll
[123:49] have a lunch that is some meat, some
[123:50] salad, maybe some starch like a bowl of
[123:52] oatmeal or rice, but not a whole lot.
[123:54] And then toward evening, my final meal
[123:57] you know, dinner, which is around 7:00
[123:58] or 8:00 p.m.
[123:59] generally includes a few more starches
[124:01] and a little less protein and I sleep
[124:04] best that way. Some people it's the
[124:05] opposite. They like a big bowl of
[124:07] oatmeal and just a couple of eggs in the
[124:08] morning and you know, and some nuts in
[124:10] the afternoon and then they'll they like
[124:11] a big steak for dinner. You know, I
[124:13] think everybody's slightly different.
[124:15] Some people are just naturally have more
[124:17] energy. I think about Jocko Willink. I
[124:18] mean the guy has so much energy.
[124:22] And I think it's not a coincidence that
[124:25] he works out at 4:30 in the morning. I
[124:27] think that if you work out early in the
[124:29] day, you often have more energy
[124:31] throughout the day. I find if I get my
[124:33] workout done before 9:00 a.m., I have
[124:34] more energy all day long. However, if I
[124:37] work out mid-morning, late morning
[124:39] pretty sleepy in the afternoon.
[124:41] Everybody's different. Is there like a
[124:43] physiological rationale for that?
[124:45] There probably is. You know, as our body
[124:47] temperature rises in the morning, we are
[124:49] waking up. So when we exercise, we
[124:51] accelerate that transition toward being
[124:54] more alert. Now in the afternoon when
[124:56] our body temperature typically peaks
[124:58] after that is usually when we get a bit
[124:59] sleepy. Typically after lunch, people
[125:01] get sleepy sometimes because of the
[125:02] volume of food they've they've eaten.
[125:04] Most often it's because they've hit that
[125:06] temperature peak in the early afternoon.
[125:08] And we know that as body temperature
[125:11] drops 1 to 3° in the evening and night
[125:14] time, that's when we fall asleep. In
[125:16] fact, in order to fall asleep, your body
[125:18] temperature actually has to drop by
[125:19] about 1 to 3°. This is why, you know,
[125:22] sticking a foot out of the, you know,
[125:24] the comforter or if you have a cooling
[125:26] mattress, which some people require
[125:27] because they run hot, or keeping the
[125:29] room cool facilitates falling asleep.
[125:32] Although it's not completely the case,
[125:34] so I should mention the best scenario
[125:36] would be cool room with warm blankets to
[125:39] fall asleep and then toward morning sort
[125:41] of a warmer environment. We actually get
[125:43] a little bit more rapid eye movement
[125:44] sleep, dream sleep
[125:46] elaborate dream sleep toward morning. So
[125:49] you can get really nuanced in this
[125:50] stuff. All the biohackers know this, but
[125:52] you know, basically if you work out
[125:54] early in the day, you know, before 8:00
[125:57] or 9:00 a.m., it's going to accelerate
[125:59] that increase in body temperature and
[126:00] you'll feel more alert. this beautiful
[126:02] phenomenon in circadian biology called
[126:04] entrainment whereby, let's say you're
[126:06] not a morning person, you hate mornings.
[126:08] If you force yourself to get up and
[126:10] exercise at say 6:00 a.m. for 3 days in
[126:12] a row by the fourth day, you'll
[126:14] naturally start waking up around that
[126:16] time. Because the circadian clock of the
[126:18] brain, we call the suprachiasmatic
[126:20] nucleus the main inputs that drive when
[126:23] you're alert and when you want to be
[126:24] asleep are sunlight exposure to the
[126:26] eyes. This is the whole basis for that
[126:28] morning sunlight exposure.
[126:30] Physical activity
[126:31] when you eat and social engagement. And
[126:34] there could be a whole discussion about
[126:36] this, but suffice to say that if you
[126:37] start getting some morning light, some
[126:39] exercise, maybe even before the sun
[126:40] comes out, some caffeine, hydration, and
[126:43] then a meal in the early part of the
[126:44] day, your body will start to anticipate
[126:47] all of those activities and even if
[126:49] you're a so-called night owl, you'll
[126:51] start to shift your clock toward being a
[126:53] early riser and lo and behold, around
[126:55] 10:00 or 11:00 p.m., you'll start to
[126:57] notice you're getting sleepy. Then you
[126:58] just have to have the discipline to turn
[126:59] off the phone put it in the other room
[127:01] and go to sleep. I wonder that. I do
[127:03] wonder if I'm a night owl because of bad
[127:05] habits or because of some kind of
[127:06] biology.
[127:08] Typically people fall into one of three
[127:10] categories and it is genetically
[127:12] determined. Uh you can be a morning
[127:14] person. A more typical I would be
[127:17] somebody who goes to sleep somewhere
[127:18] between 10:30 and midnight wakes up
[127:21] between 6:00 and 8:00 a.m. and then the
[127:23] night owls who like to stay up till 1:00
[127:24] or 2:00 in the morning, wake up around
[127:26] you know, 10:00 or 11:00 a.m. It changes
[127:28] with age.
[127:30] I'm a bit of a weirdo in the sense that
[127:31] I like to do most of my mental and
[127:34] physical work between 6:00 a.m. and
[127:36] noon. Then I'm not super effective in
[127:38] the afternoon. My brain doesn't work so
[127:40] well. I can take care of some little
[127:42] things unless I offset that. And then
[127:44] between 6:00 p.m. and midnight, I'm
[127:46] alert again.
[127:48] Yeah, I don't know. Maybe it's my
[127:49] Argentine roots, who knows. So given
[127:52] it's the afternoon now and I knew that
[127:53] we were going to be podcasting, what I
[127:55] did is I did indeed get up at 6:45 a.m.
[127:58] I did a bunch of work this morning
[128:00] for the podcast, some other things. And
[128:02] then on the way here
[128:03] I did a non-sleep deep rest. I listened
[128:06] to that for about 10 minutes. I'm I kind
[128:08] of sensed I was somewhere in sleep. I
[128:10] don't quite recall. And then when we
[128:12] arrived, I'm a little bit groggy, a
[128:14] little bit of hydration, a little bit of
[128:15] caffeine and I feel completely alert. So
[128:18] you can learn to offset these troughs in
[128:19] energy. I think that at every stage of
[128:21] life meaning for every 5-year block of
[128:24] life, you can kind of predict what the
[128:26] best schedule for you would be. So when
[128:28] you're a baby, you slept all the time,
[128:29] that's your best schedule. When you were
[128:30] an adolescent, it was different. I have
[128:32] a niece, she's 17 and I went and stayed
[128:34] with my sister recently and it was
[128:35] unbelievable. She went to bed
[128:37] at 10:30 at night. Probably fell asleep
[128:40] at midnight cuz she was on her iPad with
[128:42] her friends.
[128:43] She would wake up the next day at noon.
[128:46] It's summertime.
[128:48] Get up, say hello, get a glass of water,
[128:50] go back to sleep and sleep for another
[128:51] hour and that's exactly what she should
[128:53] be doing. Why? Because she's growing,
[128:55] right? She's a she's youth in youth. In
[128:57] your 30s, it might be a different
[128:58] schedule, in your 40s, a different
[128:59] schedule. And then, of course, kids come
[129:00] along and they force the schedule. So, I
[129:04] would say whatever stage of life you're
[129:06] in, you probably know what the best
[129:07] schedule is for you, and you just have
[129:10] to work with the realities of life. But,
[129:11] if you can adhere to that, knowing,
[129:13] okay, you have a peak in energy and
[129:15] focus at this hour, a peak in energy and
[129:17] focus at that hour,
[129:18] by all means, do it. I mean, Rick Rubin
[129:20] shared, um, when he came on my podcast
[129:22] that his best day is to transition
[129:24] slowly into the day. Take a walk outside
[129:27] in the sun in the morning. Slowly into
[129:29] the day. And then, he does his work,
[129:30] really his main focus work in the
[129:32] afternoon and in the evening. Some
[129:34] people are more night shifted, some
[129:36] people are more morning shifted. I tend
[129:38] to get my best ideas, I think, right
[129:40] before I go to sleep, which is annoying,
[129:42] because there's this temptation to go to
[129:44] my laptop and begin writing and begin
[129:46] working.
[129:46] Do you write them down?
[129:48] Yes.
[129:49] Yeah. I write down little cues, and then
[129:51] my team will know because it's useful
[129:53] when I'm on this timeframe because my
[129:54] team in the UK are getting my my memos
[129:57] at 7:00 a.m. there. All right.
[129:59] don't know that I'm it's like midnight
[130:01] or 1:00 a.m. here. I'm so glad you
[130:02] mentioned this. I think for people who
[130:04] are interested in having a great life, a
[130:05] great career, it's very important to
[130:07] have a mode of capture.
[130:09] So, for me, um, it's this notebook, and
[130:12] it's not just blank pages in front of
[130:13] me, I promise. These are just like
[130:14] little little things that come to mind.
[130:16] Um, it doesn't matter what's here. Um,
[130:20] and I place them into the notebook, and
[130:23] then at the end of each week or so, or
[130:24] if I'm on a plane, I'll start to look
[130:26] back and see, you know, what are the
[130:27] ideas that feel sticky? Like, oh,
[130:29] there's something there. There's like a
[130:30] concept there. I'm actually thinking
[130:31] about doing a uh
[130:32] a
[130:33] drawing book to teach neuroscience at
[130:36] some point. I'm also very interested in
[130:38] animals, so I was listing out, this is
[130:39] very, um, embarrassing, but the
[130:42] different animals
[130:43] that I feel I embodied at different
[130:46] stages of my life and where I'm at now
[130:48] because of the different energies. And I
[130:50] know this is very personal, right? Like,
[130:51] in the sense that it's not going to mean
[130:52] much in the kind of classic neuroscience
[130:54] sense, but I think having a mode of
[130:56] capture for these thoughts that
[130:59] spontaneously arise out of our
[131:01] unconscious mind. I mean, that's what's
[131:02] happening when you're falling asleep.
[131:04] Your conscious mind, which is involved
[131:06] in thinking and planning and organizing
[131:08] knowledge, is starting to tire. Those
[131:10] prefrontal cortex circuits are starting
[131:11] to tire, and your unconscious mind,
[131:13] which is the main driver of all your
[131:14] ideas and so much of what you you are
[131:17] about as an individual, are starting to
[131:19] geyser to the surface. This is why in
[131:21] dreams,
[131:22] even though it occurs in symbols,
[131:24] we are playing with different ideas and
[131:27] ordering of different ideas. This is not
[131:28] Freudian, okay? This is not just Jungian
[131:31] psychology. We had an expert in this,
[131:33] you know, Dr. Paul Conti did a mental
[131:34] health series on our podcast, and he
[131:36] said, you know, the bulk of your brain
[131:38] activity, besides the stuff that's just
[131:40] regulating breathing and heart rate and
[131:41] digestion, et cetera,
[131:43] is really devoted to this unconscious
[131:45] processing. It's taking events from your
[131:48] childhood, plans that you have that you
[131:50] don't even
[131:51] know yet, that aren't aware of yet.
[131:54] Experiences that are happening today and
[131:56] and looking at those from different
[131:58] perspectives and offering those to you
[131:59] in in what? In dreams. What are dreams?
[132:02] In stories, in narratives that are
[132:04] really disrupted in space and time. A
[132:05] lot can happen in a short period of
[132:07] time, then you're in a different room.
[132:08] Dreams are very distorted in terms of
[132:10] their representation. But, when you're
[132:12] falling asleep, you're in that pseudo
[132:15] awake state, obviously, where your
[132:19] thinking, planning, and action parts of
[132:21] your brain, your logical mind is turned
[132:23] off, and these ideas are geysering to
[132:25] the surface. Mhm. And this is why
[132:27] sometimes people have their best ideas
[132:29] in the shower, while walking,
[132:31] when they're not trying to have ideas.
[132:33] And you can see this by writing down a
[132:36] few things before you go to sleep. You
[132:38] can think, you know, like, wondering
[132:39] what to do next year.
[132:42] Don't know. Okay, maybe it's that vague.
[132:44] Does that mean you'll have a dream that
[132:45] solves it that night? Maybe, probably
[132:47] not. But, chances are if you pay
[132:49] attention to, you know, during the day,
[132:51] you'll be walking along, or for some
[132:52] reason this always happens to me when
[132:54] I'm I'm
[132:55] uh
[132:56] urinating? I don't know why. I don't
[132:58] know why. Like, I go like, I don't know,
[132:59] maybe it's cuz I'm relaxed. Like, I go,
[133:01] especially if I'm in nature and I'm
[133:02] hiking, I'll go like, take a take a pee
[133:04] behind a tree, and I I'll be like, oh,
[133:07] I have an idea. It's I don't know why it
[133:08] is. I think it's because I'm not
[133:10] thinking about doing anything except,
[133:12] you know, I'm taking a leak behind a
[133:13] tree. I guess this is very forthcoming
[133:15] for me to admit this, but, you know,
[133:16] some people say in the shower, other
[133:18] people while they're running.
[133:19] One thing that I think is really useful
[133:21] for coming up with ideas,
[133:23] I seem to be mentioning Rick a lot
[133:25] today, but, um, one thing I observed
[133:28] when I spent time with Rick is he has a
[133:31] kind of a practice, although he's never
[133:32] said this formally, where he'll be very
[133:34] still with his eyes closed, and I
[133:36] thought, maybe he's meditating, maybe
[133:38] he's, um, sleeping. And it turns out he
[133:42] told me that his mind is very active in
[133:44] that time,
[133:45] even though his body is very still. Now,
[133:48] that sparked something in me because I
[133:50] have a guest, or had a guest on my
[133:52] podcast by the name of Karl Deisseroth.
[133:53] He's one of the luminaries in the field
[133:55] of neuroscience and one of the best
[133:57] bioengineers in the world. He's also a
[133:58] psychiatrist. A brilliant guy. And when
[134:01] he came on my podcast, he said that he
[134:03] has a practice every night after he puts
[134:05] his five kids to sleep. He's one of
[134:07] these hyper-productive people, where he
[134:09] sits down
[134:10] and he makes himself stay as completely
[134:13] still as possible
[134:15] and forces himself to think in complete
[134:17] sentences. And I thought, this is
[134:19] interesting because it was also reported
[134:22] or purported that Einstein would take
[134:24] walks and then occasionally just stop
[134:28] and let his mind continue in thinking
[134:30] while he stopped his body. And when you
[134:32] start looking back through history of
[134:34] science, history of music, et cetera,
[134:36] you'll find that there are these
[134:37] hyper-creative, hyper-productive people
[134:39] that have a practice of making their
[134:40] body completely still and their mind
[134:42] very active. Not meditation, where
[134:45] you're trying to just focus on your
[134:46] breathing, but they're actually actively
[134:48] thinking while keeping their body very
[134:50] still. Now, I find that fascinating. I
[134:53] also find it fascinating that some
[134:54] people,
[134:55] for instance, myself, if I take a long
[134:58] run, which I do every Sunday, I make it
[134:59] a point to run for 60 to 90 minutes
[135:01] every Sunday. Not fast, but I just go go
[135:04] go go go. Inevitably, during those runs,
[135:07] I come up with some of my best ideas.
[135:09] It's a It puts my brain into a state
[135:11] where I can things geyser up from my
[135:13] unconscious mind. And so, that state of
[135:16] mind is one in which the body is very
[135:18] active, and I'm not trying to think
[135:20] about anything. So, you have these two
[135:21] inverse states. One is body still, mind
[135:24] active. The other is body active, mind
[135:27] kind of free running, kind of just like
[135:29] spooling out. When I'm running, I'm not
[135:31] thinking about anything, and then ideas
[135:33] spring to the surface. In the
[135:35] neuroscience of creativity, we know that
[135:37] there's a meditation practice that's
[135:38] been studied called open monitoring
[135:41] meditation. Most typical meditation is
[135:44] you sit or lie down, close your eyes,
[135:45] maybe lotus position, maybe not, and you
[135:47] concentrate on your breathing. You bring
[135:49] your attention constantly back to your
[135:51] third eye center.
[135:52] Work from Wendy Suzuki's laboratory at
[135:54] NYU has shown just 10 to 13 minutes of
[135:57] that practice every day can improve
[135:59] memory, in particular, working memory,
[136:01] which is your ability to keep thoughts
[136:03] online,
[136:04] lower stress, and other benefits.
[136:06] There's a different form of meditation,
[136:08] which is open monitoring meditation,
[136:10] where you sit or lie down, close your
[136:12] eyes,
[136:13] and you actually are paying attention to
[136:15] everything around you. You focus your
[136:17] attention there in the room, there in
[136:18] the room, there in the room. Or, you
[136:20] just let it all just kind of sift over
[136:22] you. You're not actually focusing on
[136:23] your breathing. And that practice of
[136:25] open monitoring meditation
[136:28] is associated with improved creative
[136:30] capacity. Now, improved creative
[136:32] capacity, in air quotes, is something
[136:34] that's measured in a laboratory. So,
[136:36] synthesis of new ideas, creative
[136:38] solutions to a puzzle, et cetera.
[136:40] We're not talking about writing great
[136:41] works of music, but in a laboratory, you
[136:44] only have so many things that you can
[136:46] sample or measure, typically in
[136:47] undergraduate students. So, I'm kind of
[136:50] just, you know, tossing all of this out
[136:51] there as a means for people who are
[136:54] interested in improving their creativity
[136:56] or exploring creativity, to not just
[136:58] wait, not just wait. Have a mode of
[137:01] capture.
[137:02] Write things down, or maybe jot them
[137:03] into your phone or voice memos. Maybe do
[137:05] open monitoring meditation. Maybe sit
[137:07] and force yourself to think in complete
[137:09] sentences with your body still. Maybe go
[137:11] for a long run or walk where you're
[137:13] bored, you're not listening to anything,
[137:15] and see what comes up. I think everyone
[137:16] does this differently, but if you're
[137:18] able to access this state of mind, it
[137:20] can be immensely powerful because great
[137:22] ideas come to you.
[137:24] So, movement was the last one in the
[137:26] dopamine. We're doing this nice
[137:27] dopamine, like, tree of things. Sleep,
[137:30] we did the NSDR, non-sleep deep rest. We
[137:33] did the hydration, exercise, sunlight.
[137:36] If I'm trying to
[137:38] use what I understand now about dopamine
[137:40] to be productive in my relationships,
[137:44] but also in my professional life, is
[137:45] there anything else I need to be We also
[137:47] did food. And you can spike your
[137:48] dopamine and epinephrine and
[137:50] norepinephrine, the so-called
[137:51] catecholamines, with a cold shower or a
[137:53] cold plunge. It is a state-shifting
[137:56] tool. That's really what it is. I like
[137:58] to do sauna and cold at least once a
[138:01] week. Most people don't have access to a
[138:03] sauna. If you don't have access to a
[138:05] sauna, no big deal, you can take a hot
[138:06] bath, just don't scald yourself. And if
[138:08] you're a male,
[138:08] now because of the Someone told me that
[138:10] it might fry my sperm.
[138:13] Oh, yeah, let's have a very frank
[138:14] discussion about that. It It won't fry
[138:16] them, but it will definitely, um,
[138:17] deplete the number of viable sperm. So,
[138:19] if you are interested in conceiving,
[138:22] just understand that the cycle for
[138:24] genesis of sperm, spermatogenesis, takes
[138:27] place over the course of somewhere
[138:29] between 60 and 90 days, depending on
[138:31] exactly what part of the cycle you're
[138:32] referring to.
[138:33] Heat is not good for sperm. This is why
[138:37] testicles exist outside the body, why
[138:39] the scrotum can both contract and and
[138:41] sort of relax.
[138:43] And if you go into a sauna or a hot tub
[138:47] or a hot bath, you will lower the number
[138:50] of viable sperm that you produce in over
[138:53] the course of the next 60 to 90 days.
[138:55] So, if you're trying to conceive,
[138:57] you probably want to avoid those
[138:58] circumstances unless, of course, you go
[139:01] into a sauna and you take a cold pack
[139:03] with some insulation, please, and you
[139:04] put it in your groin. Um that's a
[139:07] straightforward way to maintain coolness
[139:09] of the testicles and maintain sperm
[139:12] while in the sauna. It's not going to
[139:13] permanently deplete your sperm, but it
[139:15] will dramatically lower sperm viable
[139:18] sperm count forward motile sperm.
[139:20] We know this also from people that sit
[139:22] too much or people that have larger
[139:24] legs. I mean, these studies have
[139:25] actually been done. If you look at the
[139:26] correlation between amount of time
[139:28] seated, especially driving or on a hot
[139:30] car seat,
[139:32] and sperm count and viability, there's
[139:35] kind of an inverse relationship there.
[139:37] Does that mean that you should actively
[139:38] cool your testicles? Well, there's a
[139:40] whole culture of this on the internet.
[139:42] There are products that people can buy.
[139:43] I think they're What are they called?
[139:44] Snowballs? It's like a um I think
[139:47] they're called um you know, which is
[139:48] like uh cold uh underwear or something.
[139:50] I think that's getting a little bit um
[139:53] excessive.
[139:54] Um
[139:55] however, there's a kind of
[139:58] basic understanding that heat isn't good
[140:00] excessive heat isn't good for sperm. And
[140:02] the whole rationale behind cold plunges
[140:05] for sake of testosterone and sperm
[140:07] probably can only be substantiated by
[140:10] the fact that if you get into a cold
[140:12] bath or cold shower
[140:15] and then you warm up, you vasoconstrict,
[140:18] so you reduce the blood flow to the
[140:19] area, and then you're going to allow
[140:21] much more blood flow into that area
[140:23] after they warm up again. But again,
[140:24] heat is bad for the testicles. So,
[140:27] if you're not trying to conceive, no big
[140:29] deal, or you could bring an ice pack in
[140:30] there. I will also say, and this is a
[140:32] very important public service
[140:33] announcement, don't think that you can
[140:35] use hot tub or hot bath or sauna as
[140:39] contraception.
[140:40] I don't know that it's that effective.
[140:42] And um I can assure you, without having
[140:45] looked at the data, that uh many uh
[140:48] child has been conceived despite the
[140:50] fact that people were in a hot tub or
[140:52] bath or sauna. Whether or not they were
[140:54] actually conceived in the bathtub, hot
[140:56] tub, or sauna is obviously none of my
[140:58] business.
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[141:58] The other thing that I I'm curious about
[142:00] as it relates to dopamine is
[142:02] pornography.
[142:04] I think pornography has become more
[142:06] readily available now than ever before.
[142:07] Certainly. I can go on any social media
[142:09] platform, especially X, and I scroll
[142:11] down for long enough, I will be exposed
[142:13] to pornography whether I chose to go and
[142:15] seek it out or not.
[142:16] Yeah, it'll find you. It'll find you. On
[142:18] pretty much every application. Um so, I
[142:20] especially concerning for young people
[142:21] who are in that those formative years.
[142:23] But what is your view on the on
[142:25] pornography, dopamine, and the overall
[142:27] social harm of pornography?
[142:29] Yeah, so this is a controversial topic
[142:31] because
[142:32] obviously people
[142:35] have different opinions on limiting
[142:37] personal freedom, right? Um both
[142:39] expression and consumption of of uh
[142:42] pornography, right? Um but moving that
[142:44] aside and just focusing on things
[142:46] through the lens of biology and the
[142:48] dopamine system,
[142:49] we know that
[142:51] the more stimulating, the more intense
[142:54] an experience, the greater the increase
[142:56] in dopamine. I mean, it's very clear
[142:58] based on neuroimaging studies that
[143:01] you know,
[143:02] more amphetamine causes bigger increases
[143:04] in dopamine than less amphetamine.
[143:07] More cocaine causes bigger increases in
[143:09] dopamine than less cocaine. Caffeine can
[143:12] cause an increase in dopamine, but it's
[143:14] not nearly the kind of increase, the
[143:16] peak that is, that you observe with
[143:18] amphetamine or cocaine, all right? So,
[143:20] we can't just say stimulants, and we
[143:21] can't just say sex. We can't just say
[143:23] pornography. We have to ask within the
[143:25] domain of pornography, because we know
[143:27] that sexual activity, and in particular
[143:30] anticipation of sexual activity, okay,
[143:32] this is important, anticipation of
[143:34] sexual activity raises dopamine levels,
[143:37] then the question is
[143:38] what is the range of things and the
[143:41] range of dopamine increase? Now, while
[143:43] there hasn't been
[143:44] a very systematic exploration of this,
[143:46] we know that
[143:48] you know, a lot of pornography
[143:50] is extreme, right? It involves more than
[143:54] two people. It can involve all sorts of
[143:56] dynamics that for some people are going
[143:59] to be hyperstimulatory, okay?
[144:01] So, this is very different than, I
[144:03] guess, what people would call soft
[144:05] pornography, quote unquote, right? And
[144:07] here these are subjective labels. So,
[144:10] let's just pick a hypothetical scenario.
[144:12] A person is
[144:14] viewing a lot of, let's say, high
[144:17] intensity, high dopamine for them
[144:20] releasing pornography. Okay? For some
[144:23] people, that might be pornography of
[144:24] genre A. For other people, it might be
[144:26] pornography of genre B. For somebody who
[144:28] never looks at pornography, maybe it's
[144:30] quite mild,
[144:33] but for them, it's actually quite
[144:35] intense in terms of the amount of
[144:36] dopamine it releases. Now, what do we
[144:38] know based on dopamine dynamics?
[144:39] Remember, dopamine is the universal
[144:41] currency of motivation-seeking and
[144:43] reward. It's not like there's dopamine
[144:45] unique to pornography versus dopamine
[144:47] unique to food. It's just a matter of
[144:49] levels and duration.
[144:52] If somebody is consuming, let's call it,
[144:54] very intense, aka high dopamine
[144:57] releasing pornography on a regular
[145:00] basis, what do we know? That peak in
[145:02] dopamine will start to lessen. It'll be
[145:05] lower and lower, and the trough
[145:07] in dopamine after they view that
[145:09] pornography will be
[145:11] deeper trough and longer trough, meaning
[145:14] they are very likely, we don't know for
[145:15] sure, but very likely to seek out more
[145:17] and more intense experiences to try and
[145:19] just get them back to baseline. Pretty
[145:21] soon, the pornography that at one time
[145:24] was very stimulating for them is no
[145:26] longer stimulating. Now, the concern
[145:28] here is that and let's just be frank,
[145:30] we're not just talking about viewing
[145:32] pornography. We also have to ask
[145:33] ourselves, what are people doing as they
[145:35] view this pornography?
[145:36] This is
[145:37] a conversation that should be had, but I
[145:40] have to do it in a way where I'm not
[145:42] imparting moral judgment on any of it.
[145:44] I'm not saying people should masturbate
[145:45] or not masturbate. That's none of my
[145:46] business, frankly. This is highly
[145:48] individual. It relates to all sorts of
[145:49] things in terms of values, et cetera.
[145:53] The point is, however, that we know that
[145:58] orgasm is a dopamine-related event, and
[146:01] post-orgasm, there's a
[146:04] increase in a molecule called prolactin
[146:07] in the brain. Prolactin actually in part
[146:11] sets the refractory period in which
[146:14] there can't be further erection in males
[146:16] and orgasm in males. Okay? And in
[146:18] females,
[146:19] it really depends. I mean, there's this
[146:21] whole world I mean, Dr. Rena Malik is um
[146:24] far more skilled to discuss this than I
[146:25] am about, you know, different types of
[146:28] orgasms in women, et cetera. The extent
[146:30] to which multiple orgasms can occur in
[146:32] some individuals, not others. I think
[146:33] the general belief is that it's possible
[146:36] in most anybody, um including males and
[146:38] females, right? But that it's more
[146:40] typical in females than in males, this
[146:42] sort of thing. Here's the point.
[146:44] Dopamine and prolactin generally are in
[146:46] a kind of a push-pull or seesaw
[146:49] relationship, whereby
[146:51] very stimulatory, high dopamine
[146:53] releasing activities and pornography and
[146:55] things like that increase dopamine, but
[146:57] repeated exposure to that, regardless of
[146:59] the activities occurring during that
[147:01] time, lead to big long troughs in
[147:04] dopamine, such that more stimulation is
[147:06] required just to get any sense of
[147:08] arousal.
[147:09] We also know that prolactin, when that
[147:12] is increased, tends to create a kind of
[147:15] um subdued lack of
[147:17] dopamine, I'm using these terms broadly,
[147:20] um
[147:21] kind of amotivated, non-motivated state.
[147:24] There are reasons for this biologically,
[147:26] right? After ejaculation, the idea is
[147:28] that animals won't then or humans won't
[147:31] then copulate again and again and again,
[147:33] at least not for some period of time.
[147:34] The duration of the refractory period is
[147:36] highly individual. It's determined by
[147:38] age, by species. There's the so-called
[147:40] Coolidge effect. Are you familiar with
[147:41] the Coolidge effect? I'm familiar with
[147:43] post-nut clarity. Okay. Um slightly
[147:46] different. There's an anecdote that um
[147:48] at least to my understanding is true, at
[147:49] least the Coolidge effect is a known
[147:51] thing in neuroendocrinology, whereby
[147:54] President Calvin Coolidge
[147:56] reportedly was visiting a chicken farm
[148:00] with his wife.
[148:02] They were touring the farm, and there
[148:04] were a lot of hens, and a lot of
[148:06] chickens generally, and the docent who
[148:09] was showing them around said, you know,
[148:11] this rooster here, pointing to a
[148:13] rooster,
[148:14] copulates more than 300 times per day.
[148:18] It's remarkable. And Mrs. Coolidge turns
[148:21] to President Coolidge and says,
[148:23] "You hear that? 300 times per day."
[148:26] She's obviously quite impressed and
[148:27] letting him know that. And Coolidge,
[148:30] that is, President Coolidge, says, "Ah,
[148:32] but let me ask you a question. Same hen
[148:34] or different hens?" And the docent says,
[148:36] "Different hens." Now, here's the
[148:38] phenomenon, the Coolidge effect. It
[148:39] exists in rodents. It exists in
[148:41] chickens. It exists in dogs.
[148:45] People can speculate whether or not it
[148:46] exists in humans, whereby
[148:49] if an animal copulates, then the male is
[148:52] in a refractory period lasting anywhere
[148:54] from minutes to hours to days, depending
[148:56] on age, species, etc.
[148:59] During that refractory period, they
[149:00] can't
[149:02] achieve erection and or ejaculate again.
[149:05] But if you replace the mate
[149:07] with a novel mate, the refractory period
[149:10] is shortened substantially.
[149:12] Why? The answer is very clear based on
[149:15] actual measurements of brain dopamine.
[149:18] Why? Because dopamine is also associated
[149:20] with novelty. Now, the refractory period
[149:24] probably serves an important
[149:25] evolutionary role, whereby it improves
[149:28] pair bonding so that post post
[149:30] ejaculation post orgasm, okay, here
[149:32] we're interchangeably talking about
[149:33] these for males and females.
[149:35] You know, anytime you hear ejaculation,
[149:36] then people think males, etc. Post
[149:38] orgasm, post coital bliss, pair bonding,
[149:41] the sharing of pheromones, the sharing
[149:43] of stories, you know, the sharing of
[149:44] affection, right? The sharing of a bed
[149:46] to sleep in. These things are intimately
[149:49] involved in pair bonding. So, I'm not
[149:51] saying that the refractory period is a
[149:53] bad thing. What I'm saying is that
[149:55] dopamine can overcome the refractory
[149:57] period, but the refractory period itself
[149:58] is largely due to an increase in
[150:00] prolactin that suppresses dopamine. So,
[150:03] let's go back all the way to this
[150:05] question about pornography.
[150:06] What's the typical scenario? While this
[150:08] is not something I choose to think about
[150:10] a lot, you're talking about some
[150:12] individual in their
[150:14] apartment or home watching intense
[150:16] dopamine stimulating pornography
[150:19] in which they
[150:21] presumably are aroused or not aroused.
[150:24] They do or don't do whatever they choose
[150:26] to do, but that over time has less and
[150:28] less and of an effect in getting them
[150:30] aroused. And keep in mind that none of
[150:33] this necessarily translates to real
[150:34] world human safe interactions between
[150:39] individuals, right? Pornography is very
[150:42] very different than real world sexual
[150:44] interactions. So, there is a phenomenon
[150:47] that is starting to surface on the
[150:49] internet. What do I mean by that? I
[150:50] mean, there are a lot of questions posed
[150:53] in podcast forums in meaning in the
[150:55] comment section on YouTube about is
[150:58] pornography dangerous? Is it bad, etc. I
[151:00] think the thing that we can say for sure
[151:02] is that
[151:03] any behavior, any substance that
[151:06] stimulates a lot of dopamine and that is
[151:08] easily accessed without effort is
[151:11] potentially problematic.
[151:14] Again, big increases in dopamine that
[151:17] are not preceded by effort are
[151:19] potentially problematic. Let's think
[151:21] about methamphetamine. Huge increase in
[151:23] dopamine. Was the brain designed to
[151:25] release dopamine in response to
[151:27] amphetamine? No. The brain was designed
[151:29] to dole out dopamine, give out dopamine
[151:31] at a level and duration that is
[151:33] commensurate with the pursuit of some
[151:36] evolutionarily adaptive goal.
[151:39] Methamphetamine bypasses that, gives you
[151:41] a huge surge in dopamine, which is why
[151:42] people feel miserable afterwards. They
[151:44] crave more just to get back to a lower
[151:46] level of dopamine. Same can be said of
[151:48] gambling in in particular in people that
[151:50] are very prone to gambling addiction.
[151:53] Certainly can be said for food for
[151:54] certain people that are very prone to
[151:56] food addiction. Certainly
[151:58] can be true for anything. But when it
[152:01] comes to pornography, because of the as
[152:03] you pointed out, the ready availability
[152:05] of pornography, in particular
[152:08] let's just call it intense pornography
[152:11] or that includes a lot of different
[152:13] other stimulatory elements, multiple
[152:15] people, high you know, a lot of
[152:17] scenarios that um
[152:19] can be accessed on the internet, right?
[152:21] Certainly not things I'm suggesting
[152:22] people go look at, but that is
[152:25] potentially problematic because it
[152:27] raises the threshold of the person
[152:29] that's viewing this as what is arousing
[152:31] to the point where pretty soon they need
[152:33] those hyper stimulatory environments or
[152:37] stimuli in the form of pornography in
[152:39] order to get aroused. And again, none of
[152:41] that translates into the ability to have
[152:43] conversation with partners or the
[152:45] ability to, you know, have discussion in
[152:48] real world circumstances. And of course,
[152:50] everything we're talking about could
[152:51] also be translated to real world
[152:53] circumstances, but the data really point
[152:55] to the fact that younger people in
[152:56] particular are consuming more
[152:58] pornography. So, we're talking about
[152:59] bigger dopamine increases with less When
[153:02] I say effort, what I mean is kind of the
[153:04] more traditional thing was, at least
[153:06] when I was growing up, was you'd go out
[153:08] on a date or you'd meet somebody and
[153:10] you'd you know, there's a a series of
[153:11] events that would happen prior to uh
[153:13] physical interactions, right? So,
[153:16] this is potentially serious and
[153:18] problematic. There's a lot of judgment
[153:21] and understandably so, because people
[153:23] arrive to this sort of discussion with a
[153:25] lot of different backgrounds in terms of
[153:27] religious backgrounds and what they
[153:29] think is okay or not okay. What I can
[153:31] tell you for sure is that I hear from a
[153:33] lot of young males about their
[153:35] challenges with porn addiction and they
[153:38] want to know how to get over porn
[153:41] addiction. And the answer there is
[153:42] difficult, but very simple, which is
[153:44] abstinence. It's abstinence. It's taking
[153:47] a period of abstinence from pornography.
[153:49] Maybe forever. Maybe reducing the
[153:52] amount. This is where it gets very
[153:54] tricky, very subjective, and it's almost
[153:55] impossible to kind of have the
[153:57] discussion without getting into some
[153:59] murky territory.
[154:00] Yeah. Um but it's a real issue. And I
[154:03] know it's a real issue because I hear
[154:05] from thousands over the last few years
[154:07] of the podcast, I've heard from
[154:08] thousands of males that are like
[154:11] they were addicted to porn. How do they
[154:13] feel?
[154:14] It sounds to me as if they feel very
[154:17] dejected. And some of them actually have
[154:19] said they felt very um kind of misled.
[154:23] Like almost like this thing this natural
[154:25] stimulus for them was
[154:27] dangled in front of them and they
[154:29] just gravitated towards it the same way
[154:31] that any biological organism would
[154:33] gravitate towards something that was
[154:35] triggering its dopamine system. And now
[154:37] they feel depleted and kind of stuck and
[154:40] they don't know what to do. And I don't
[154:42] necessarily think I'm the person to
[154:44] remedy all of this. I certainly am not,
[154:46] but I think there needs to be a
[154:47] conversation, much in the same way that
[154:49] Jonathan Haidt has done an amazing job
[154:51] with anxious generation of talking about
[154:54] some of the severe detriments to overuse
[154:56] of social media and social dynamics on
[154:58] social media, in particular in young
[155:00] girls, and how we're now finally
[155:02] realizing that we're in a mental health
[155:03] crisis, at least in part because of some
[155:06] of that, and we need to pay attention to
[155:07] it. I think there needs to be a
[155:08] discussion around pornography and some
[155:10] of the challenges it can potentially
[155:13] present, in particular for young males,
[155:15] which is not to say that girls and women
[155:18] aren't also looking at pornography,
[155:20] because we know they are. The data tell
[155:21] us that.
[155:23] But
[155:24] it does seem to be more of a problem
[155:27] that's being vocalized by young males.
[155:29] And this of course dovetails with the
[155:30] whole discussion about dating behavior
[155:32] and how that's changed in dating apps,
[155:34] and you know, how the ready availability
[155:37] of kind of the possibility or
[155:39] anticipation of a partner is there, but
[155:41] actual dating behavior and real world
[155:43] sexual behavior is reduced. I mean,
[155:45] there's a lot that needs to be discussed
[155:47] and you know, ideally we would have a
[155:49] psychiatrist, a psychologist, and um a
[155:52] kind of panel of experts to talk about
[155:54] this. And maybe we do this together, you
[155:56] know, as as a service to the world,
[155:58] because I hear about this a lot. Yeah,
[156:00] for instance, just by way of contrast,
[156:02] I'm not getting a ton of YouTube
[156:03] comments and emails from people saying,
[156:05] "Hey, you know, I really struggle with
[156:07] uh
[156:07] you know, with ribeye steak addiction or
[156:09] with coffee addiction or energy drink
[156:11] addiction." Maybe a little bit with
[156:12] energy drinks, but it's not crashing
[156:14] lives. It's not causing people to feel
[156:16] depressed, miserable about themselves.
[156:18] It's not causing people to have sexual
[156:19] dysfunction issues in real world
[156:21] interactions. I mean, this is also the
[156:23] concern, right? That young people are
[156:25] getting so attuned to certain dopamine
[156:29] dynamics related to pornography that
[156:31] they don't either get aroused or know
[156:34] how to handle real world intimate
[156:36] interactions.
[156:37] Erectile dysfunction, all those kinds of
[156:38] things.
[156:39] For instance. I do I have to be honest
[156:41] and I this is I just have to be honest
[156:43] cuz nothing else is useful, but I
[156:45] remember the first time I saw a
[156:46] pornographic image when I was young and
[156:49] it was just a picture of like someone
[156:51] with like a nipple out. And it was the
[156:53] most arousing
[156:56] thing in the world. And obviously as
[156:58] I've aged, I'm now 31, it would arouse I
[157:01] certainly wouldn't get aroused at seeing
[157:02] like the thing that aroused me when I
[157:04] was 16 or whatever that I found. For
[157:06] example, in it and that as you were
[157:08] saying, I was thinking, "Gosh, even my
[157:09] arousal cycle as I've gotten, you know,
[157:11] over the last 10 years has changed
[157:13] because of the availability of
[157:14] pornography, but also just sex as a it
[157:18] in real life is
[157:20] is become more extreme as it tries to
[157:22] keep up with the expectations that
[157:24] pornography sets. And then I thought
[157:26] about a lot what you said about people
[157:27] messaging you, thousands of them, about
[157:29] pornography and
[157:30] the unfortunate thing about the the
[157:32] abstinence advice is it leaves them with
[157:35] many of them with what alternative?
[157:38] I mean, one would hope um depending on,
[157:41] you know, the circumstances, that they
[157:42] would seek out healthy relationships.
[157:45] And then this goes to the social
[157:46] elements you described, which is it's
[157:48] really difficult. And when we I've had
[157:50] multiple people sit here saying to me
[157:51] that really the top 10% of men that are
[157:53] having most of the sex, and this bottom
[157:55] percent 50% of men haven't had sex for a
[157:57] year. I go, "So, you're you're going to
[157:59] we got to tell a 19-year-old horny young
[158:02] man that he's got to abstain from
[158:05] masturbation and pornography, and we
[158:08] might not be able to offer him an
[158:09] alternative for a year." Well, I'm not
[158:11] telling anyone what to
[158:12] know it's not you, but I'm Right. Or
[158:13] maybe um But you got to
[158:15] throttle back throttle back his behavior
[158:17] or think about ways in which things he
[158:21] could do could lead to healthy romantic
[158:24] and sexual interactions, you know,
[158:26] assuming that, you know, he's of an age
[158:28] and you know, the circumstances are are
[158:31] like for that. I think that
[158:34] it's you know, as you can tell, as I'm
[158:35] kind of stumbling here, I'm not trying
[158:37] to be careful. I'm trying to be as
[158:38] accurate as possible while also not
[158:41] stating things that I don't believe are
[158:42] true. Like, you know,
[158:44] can pornography be consumed by certain
[158:46] people in a healthy way? Well, probably
[158:48] yes. Um do a lot of people get carried
[158:50] away with it and it starts to become a
[158:51] detriment in their lives? Maybe even an
[158:53] addiction, maybe even
[158:55] impede other aspects of romantic and
[158:58] workplace behavior.
[159:00] Yes, we hear this all the time. Do you
[159:02] know where I am now? I am at I'm
[159:03] arriving at the position that I think
[159:05] pornography is bad.
[159:08] Because, you know, again, I get lots of
[159:09] DMs and messages and the more I've
[159:11] understood about the brain and the body
[159:12] and the and dopamine etc., I just can't
[159:16] find a
[159:18] net positive of pornography. I can't
[159:20] find one. Especially as it relates to my
[159:22] relationship with my partner. I've been
[159:23] with her for 5 years now. And I do I
[159:25] think that me watching pornography,
[159:28] especially if I'm watching it
[159:29] frequently, is going to help my
[159:30] performance in the bedroom? Absolutely
[159:33] not. Absolutely not. Yeah, it's sort of
[159:35] um
[159:36] what's that old saying? You want to get
[159:37] good at push-ups, do push-ups. You know,
[159:40] probably the best place to get um good
[159:43] at intimate conversation and behavior is
[159:46] in the context of, like you said, like a
[159:48] a great relationship
[159:49] Mhm. um with great communication, that
[159:51] sort of thing. I
[159:53] I do hear about this
[159:55] concern from people a lot. I think that
[159:58] it's hard to imagine more benefits than
[160:02] kind of concerns or risks when it comes
[160:04] to pornography, especially for young
[160:07] males. I too grew up in an era where,
[160:09] you know, someone would have knowledge
[160:12] of like a Playboy magazine or something.
[160:14] Typically, it was stashed someplace in
[160:16] town and then people would go visit it,
[160:18] you know? Um
[160:19] it was like a library or something. It
[160:21] was it was sort of a like an urban
[160:22] library type environment where, you
[160:24] know, people would know, oh yeah, behind
[160:26] the
[160:26] it was always like a
[160:28] dumpster or something terrible. It would
[160:29] be like behind the dumpster or behind
[160:30] this building, like there's a there's a
[160:31] stack of Playboys and like then people
[160:33] would go there, right? Um
[160:35] but it wasn't a big part of my
[160:38] childhood. It wasn't a big part of my
[160:40] life, you know? I never found any
[160:43] pornography in my home. Like, you know,
[160:44] some kids will stumble across their
[160:45] dad's magazines. I never had that
[160:47] experience. Um I think that
[160:51] a lot can be said about the requirements
[160:53] and importance of
[160:55] creating healthy dating behavior and
[160:58] that's a real-world experience kind of
[161:00] thing. And, you know, this is a bigger
[161:02] discussion that deserves a lot of time.
[161:04] Um I'm not sure we have time for it now,
[161:06] but you know, we're growing up in a
[161:09] world where
[161:10] so much of the input arrives through the
[161:13] internet. Again, a low-effort threshold,
[161:16] high-dopamine scenario, right? Somebody
[161:19] wants to find something on the internet,
[161:21] they just Google for it and they can
[161:23] find it.
[161:24] Um you know, I think you want particular
[161:27] food that's extremely tasty, you can
[161:29] order it to your door.
[161:30] Um this is
[161:32] not potentially problematic, this is
[161:34] problematic. What it requires
[161:35] ultimately, however,
[161:37] I believe, is self-regulatory
[161:40] mechanisms. There is no way that
[161:43] legislature is going to prevent us from
[161:46] having access to things. It's just not
[161:49] because people have always found a way.
[161:52] You know, I mean, you think about um
[161:53] prescription drugs that deliver dopamine
[161:56] without much effort. You know, even if
[161:58] people don't have a prescription, I
[161:59] think the data are something like 80% of
[162:01] college students have taken prescription
[162:03] stimulants without a prescription. I
[162:05] mean, when I went to college, nobody did
[162:07] that. Nobody. We drank coffee,
[162:10] occasionally someone would take a NoDoz,
[162:11] like a caffeine pill or something, and
[162:13] that was considered extreme and I still
[162:14] don't recommend it. Now, you know,
[162:16] there's all this consumption of
[162:17] pharmacology, there's consumption of
[162:20] porn, and I think that successful
[162:22] individuals will learn
[162:24] and understand this relationship about
[162:26] dopamine, especially their own, and they
[162:28] will learn to regulate, and they will be
[162:30] very careful about anything that spikes
[162:32] dopamine really high without much
[162:34] preceding effort and that has the
[162:36] capacity for addiction. So, I worry far
[162:39] less about the energy drink, the loud
[162:41] music, and the workout, far, far less,
[162:44] maybe not at all, than I do
[162:46] high-intensity pornography consumed on a
[162:48] regular basis, people taking
[162:50] prescription stimulants who don't need
[162:52] them. I mean, that's a recipe for
[162:55] burnout, depression,
[162:57] or worse.
[162:58] How does this kind of dovetail into
[163:00] having meaning in your life? Because I'm
[163:02] thinking now about those young men. And
[163:04] in that sort of stereotype, they're
[163:06] maybe sat in their bedroom alone,
[163:08] probably don't have a romantic partner,
[163:10] maybe don't have a lot to be aiming at
[163:12] in their lives, and
[163:13] the group of people that fall into those
[163:15] gambling addiction behaviors or that
[163:16] pornography behavior, often times, not
[163:19] always, but often, are also lacking in
[163:22] some kind of meaning. Is there a like a
[163:23] correlation between the two? Are they
[163:25] associated? Um and does one help the
[163:28] other? If I if I go out and start
[163:30] pursuing some great goal in my life,
[163:31] start a company, am I less likely to
[163:33] then be engaging in the
[163:34] dopamine-inducing pornography addiction?
[163:37] So, to answer the second question first,
[163:40] I absolutely believe that when we are in
[163:42] pursuit of healthy goals, meaning goals
[163:44] that are building our life forward, that
[163:45] are going to improve our
[163:47] social relationships, sure, your income,
[163:50] although, you know, it's risky to just
[163:52] be in pursuit of money, right? There
[163:54] there another great way to encapsulate
[163:56] the dopamine conversation is I think
[163:58] it's in that movie Wall Street where the
[163:59] guy says, "What's your number?" You
[164:01] know, how much money do you want? And he
[164:02] just says, "More." Well, that's
[164:03] dopamine. That's the essence of
[164:04] dopamine. He just wants more. It's not
[164:06] really about a number, it's about the
[164:07] pursuit and acquisition of money for
[164:09] him. It's the verb of acquisition. It's
[164:12] not having that money. And you see this
[164:14] in people that get a million dollars,
[164:15] they want 10. They get 10, they want
[164:17] 100. They get 100, they want to be a
[164:19] billionaire, right? And I can tell you
[164:20] knowing many billionaires that some of
[164:22] them are happy and some of them are
[164:24] intensely unhappy people. It really
[164:27] depends on how well they've
[164:29] managed their relationship to dopamine.
[164:32] Because ultimately, it's not about
[164:33] money, right? Dopamine is just a
[164:34] currency. So, healthy relationships are
[164:37] absolutely fundamental. Here's what we
[164:38] know. Many, many people are struggling
[164:40] nowadays from what we hear of as the
[164:43] isolation crisis. But all it takes is
[164:46] one
[164:47] trusting,
[164:49] reliable relationship to start to shift
[164:51] that in the right direction.
[164:52] I
[164:53] you know, I am so
[164:55] adamant about this. One of the most
[164:57] powerful things that anyone can do,
[164:59] believe it or not, is to have someone
[165:01] each morning that they text good morning
[165:04] to. I know this is going to sound
[165:06] trivial, corny, and I'm happy to take
[165:08] the heat on this one.
[165:10] Find a friend. And in particular, men
[165:13] who lack friends completely because
[165:15] there's a greater percentage of those,
[165:16] although it's certainly the case that
[165:18] many young women and women are
[165:20] lonely as well.
[165:22] Find someone who you can communicate
[165:24] with each morning. Just a good morning
[165:26] text.
[165:27] Seriously, this is one of the most
[165:29] powerful things you can do, to check in
[165:31] with another member of your species each
[165:33] morning. You don't have to have
[165:34] conversation, you don't have to talk
[165:35] about what you're going to do each day.
[165:37] Knowing that someone else out there in
[165:38] the world cares about us each morning
[165:41] when we wake up makes us feel incredibly
[165:45] part of the tribe.
[165:47] I do this with, let's see,
[165:49] one, two,
[165:50] two friends religiously, one
[165:53] from time to time, and a few others kind
[165:56] of kind fall in and out of the mix. It's
[165:58] an extremely powerful thing to do.
[166:00] You're part of a community. Can I ask
[166:02] that? Are you Does it matter what you
[166:04] say? Cuz in my group chats, we we tend
[166:05] to tell each other to off and stuff
[166:07] and we we roast each other.
[166:08] That's fine, too. Even better if it's
[166:09] elaborated with, "How'd you sleep? What
[166:11] are you doing today? What's your plan
[166:12] for the day?" And you reach back. Is it
[166:15] about showing concern and care for them
[166:17] and having that reciprocated, or is it
[166:19] just about the communication itself?
[166:21] Someone cares enough to think about you
[166:24] first thing in the morning. You know,
[166:25] people are really isolated. We move away
[166:27] from our families now. And by the way,
[166:28] these could be family members that
[166:30] you're communicating with.
[166:32] But
[166:33] the idea that someone is thinking of us
[166:35] first thing in the morning, even if it's
[166:36] just like a operational thing, like,
[166:38] okay, here we go. Good morning.
[166:40] The idea that there's some regularity,
[166:41] some expectation and understanding of a
[166:44] social connection that's reliable is
[166:46] immensely powerful.
[166:48] You know, I we've heard a lot even from
[166:49] the US Surgeon General about the
[166:50] isolation crisis and the need for more
[166:52] connection and certainly that
[166:54] can and should be in the form of walks
[166:57] with people, coffee, meals, etc. Yes,
[166:59] yes, and yes. But a great starting place
[167:02] that's very low bar is just a good
[167:05] morning exchange, even by text. Phone
[167:07] would be better each morning.
[167:09] I do this as an adult with two friends.
[167:12] Good morning. Good morning. If I don't
[167:13] hear from either one of them by noon, I
[167:15] start to worry a little bit, not because
[167:17] they're in in any kind of trouble, but
[167:19] it's just become such a routine part of
[167:21] my day.
[167:22] It allows you to feel part of something
[167:25] bigger than yourself. We are not meant
[167:28] to live our lives in complete isolation,
[167:31] in complete relationship only with our
[167:33] goals.
[167:34] It has to be in relation to other people
[167:36] and our goals. This is the importance of
[167:38] going to the workplace. This is the
[167:40] importance of having a place where you
[167:41] work. If you don't have a place of work,
[167:44] going to a cafe or a library, seeing
[167:46] faces in the morning. Now, some people
[167:48] don't want to see any faces in the
[167:49] morning. They're not ready to quote
[167:50] unquote face the day. That's fine. But
[167:52] at some point, seeing other people for
[167:54] some period of time, even just briefly
[167:56] on the street, saying hello, vitally
[167:58] important. You know, we evolved we we
[168:00] are a primate species. We are old world
[168:02] primates. We evolved to look other
[168:03] people in the eye and for them to look
[168:05] back at us, even if just to say, "Hi."
[168:07] as they walk their dog. Now, some people
[168:09] don't have anyone. It's really sad, but
[168:12] some people don't have anyone to even
[168:13] exchange this basic text with.
[168:16] In that case, I highly recommend that
[168:18] you adopt an animal. A dog can
[168:20] accomplish a tremendous amount, not
[168:21] everything, but a tremendous amount in
[168:23] terms of making us feel connected. We
[168:25] are then a caretaker, they're taking
[168:26] care of us. There's empathy there.
[168:29] There's all sorts of wonderful things.
[168:30] If you can't have that, you can get a
[168:32] fish. Seriously, some being, a a
[168:35] some living being that we're responsible
[168:38] for and that relies on us,
[168:39] and to some extent that we rely on as
[168:41] well,
[168:42] is so crucial. We have huge amounts of
[168:46] neural real estate devoted to this,
[168:48] humans especially. You know, most of the
[168:50] brain is designed for visual processing,
[168:52] for movement, and then you start to look
[168:54] at okay, like what's kind of the third
[168:55] element? Well, it's language and social
[168:57] connection.
[168:59] So,
[169:00] find someone that you can exchange a
[169:01] morning text with on a consistent basis,
[169:03] ideally every day. Does this come
[169:05] naturally to you? Because you don't
[169:06] strike me as an individual that this
[169:09] comes naturally to. I'm not also. Okay,
[169:11] you mean I'm I'm a bit of a a loner, is
[169:13] that the sense you get?
[169:14] I'm a loner.
[169:15] I I would be perfectly okay. There was a
[169:17] year of my life where I feel like I
[169:18] didn't interact with anyone when I was
[169:19] building my first business in a small
[169:21] room in a rough area of the UK, but I'm
[169:24] someone who
[169:25] if left to my own devices, probably
[169:28] wouldn't interact with anybody.
[169:30] And but I you strike me as the same. I
[169:31] have my dog as well, but Yeah, a bit. I
[169:33] don't have a dog right now. I'm getting
[169:34] another one soon. I must say I can spend
[169:37] long periods of time alone, but I crave
[169:39] social connection and more so as I get
[169:40] older.
[169:41] You know, I think um
[169:43] most of the challenges in my life have
[169:45] been around trying to resolve
[169:48] the need to get work done that I'm
[169:50] really passionate about
[169:53] and the
[169:54] let's just call it what it is, the
[169:55] isolation required for that, the
[169:57] discipline, the organization that's
[169:58] required for that,
[170:00] and the desire to to be socially
[170:02] connected. Now, I've been very fortunate
[170:05] to have a lot of really close friends
[170:07] and I'm in communication with them on a
[170:09] regular basis and I've been
[170:11] closer to some than others. There's some
[170:13] that I'm really close with, I talk to
[170:15] all the time every day. I'm close with
[170:17] my sister.
[170:18] I talk to my parents a fair amount, you
[170:19] know, more than some, less than others,
[170:21] depends on the family structure. Um
[170:24] and a few friends are just absolutely
[170:26] central to my life and well-being. I
[170:28] think when you have a romantic partner
[170:30] that you live with or that you're in
[170:31] communication with,
[170:32] then becomes more frequent, but even
[170:34] there, you know, I think it's important
[170:36] to still maintain healthy friendships.
[170:37] And of course, people differ on this
[170:39] spectrum. I don't think you need a lot
[170:40] of friends. I think you need one really
[170:42] reliable good friend or more, depending
[170:45] on, you know, what your needs are. And I
[170:47] think that
[170:49] as I've gotten older, I realized that,
[170:51] you know, that the best things in life,
[170:52] success in particular, but also hard
[170:55] times are best shared with other people.
[170:57] And the best way to make friends,
[170:59] really, is
[171:01] twofold. You know, a friend of mine once
[171:02] said this, he said, you know, people
[171:04] with interests are interesting.
[171:06] So, people So, if you're interested in
[171:07] things, you know, going and interacting
[171:10] with those things, even if they're
[171:11] within books, etc., have interests,
[171:13] genuine interest, don't just learn
[171:15] things for learning's sake, but just
[171:17] have interests.
[171:18] And then the other
[171:19] is that
[171:21] if you are not the sort of person for
[171:23] whom like friendships are just pouring
[171:25] over you and people want your time,
[171:27] then
[171:28] be of service.
[171:30] You know, this notion of be the person
[171:32] who sends the good morning text. Now, if
[171:33] somebody never reciprocates, well then
[171:35] okay, maybe you look elsewhere and and
[171:38] send your your energy elsewhere. But be
[171:40] the person who checks up on somebody, on
[171:43] a family member or friend on a regular
[171:45] basis. Be the person of service and um
[171:47] you can volunteer, you can help people
[171:49] in any number of ways.
[171:51] I mean, the great thing about a dog or
[171:52] just taking walks is that you
[171:55] you'll find if you do it continually in
[171:57] the same neighborhood over and over, you
[171:58] start to run into the same people and it
[172:00] becomes a hello, maybe they become a
[172:01] friend, maybe it's just the familiarity,
[172:03] maybe it's the barista that you say
[172:05] hello to each morning. You know, these
[172:06] things are really what
[172:08] I think we evolved I In fact, I know we
[172:10] evolved to do and they trigger
[172:12] activation of these circuits that are so
[172:13] fundamental to our sense of of
[172:15] well-being and safety. It It largely has
[172:18] to do with our ability to predict the
[172:19] future. I mean, right now we're in a
[172:21] political landscape and a
[172:23] you know, just a world landscape that's
[172:25] so uncertain and so divisive, you know,
[172:27] just having some things that are just
[172:29] good
[172:30] let's just call it what it is, goodness,
[172:32] just good-natured humans
[172:34] being good-natured, you know, being kind
[172:37] to one another and not in any kind of a
[172:40] manipulative way, just really being kind
[172:42] to one another. And then
[172:44] upon that, one can layer, you know, a
[172:46] couple extra hours of work where you're
[172:48] highly motivated then getting back out.
[172:49] Take your
[172:50] you know, your lunch outside and maybe
[172:52] you don't see anybody. You know, people
[172:53] who are isolated probably have to do
[172:55] more work to interact with other people,
[172:57] but there are ways to do this.
[172:59] And
[173:00] you know, for people that struggle with
[173:01] addictions like the pornography
[173:03] addictions or alcohol, drug addictions
[173:05] and other like behavioral addictions,
[173:08] I mean, there are zero cost programs
[173:10] essentially in every city around the
[173:12] world that people can access some of the
[173:14] social connection and support for those
[173:16] that again are completely zero cost.
[173:18] For people that um are interested in
[173:21] exercise, you know, there's usually like
[173:23] running groups. There's usually a
[173:24] threshold one has to get over. I'm not
[173:25] one to join a running group or work out
[173:27] with other people. This is not my kind
[173:29] of thing, but I do require, I've found,
[173:33] um I need healthy social connection.
[173:36] When did you figure that out? Because
[173:37] there was a an age where I can tell
[173:38] exactly when I figured it out, so I know
[173:40] there must be one for you where you kind
[173:41] of figure it out.
[173:42] Yeah. I mean, I grew up in a big pack of
[173:44] boys at the end of my street growing up.
[173:46] Uh we all played together. Then
[173:48] skateboarding in that world, I was just
[173:50] really surrounded by people all the
[173:52] time. When I got serious about school
[173:56] and research, there were a lot of days
[173:58] and nights I was alone. And at that
[174:00] time, I'd listen to books or I'd listen
[174:02] to music. Um I still had friends, but I
[174:05] was less social. And I think it wasn't
[174:07] really until my mid-30s that it that I
[174:09] started to realize like, whoa, like
[174:11] okay, even though, you know, I had a
[174:12] girlfriend, I was I was lonely and I was
[174:15] starting to accumulate some unhealthy
[174:16] patterns of behavior where I was just
[174:19] seeking connection in unhealthy ways.
[174:21] And as I've built up my friendship
[174:22] group, and that also of course requires
[174:24] being a good friend. And I suppose there
[174:26] are a few people out there that probably
[174:28] say that I'm an unreliable friend, but I
[174:30] think if you were to pull my
[174:32] 10 or 15 closest friends,
[174:34] they'll tell you I'm the guy that checks
[174:35] in. Now, I've probably upset a few
[174:37] people cuz I don't check in on
[174:39] everybody, but it's true. I've got a
[174:40] list Actually have a list, it's not in
[174:41] this notebook, of about 10 or 15 people.
[174:44] It's a list of 30 people total that
[174:47] those are my core people and I make it a
[174:49] point. It's not because I'm regimented
[174:51] or protocoling any of this. I make it a
[174:53] point to check in on that person. I
[174:55] haven't called that person in a little
[174:56] while. But then there's that core group
[174:57] of people that I make sure to check in
[174:59] with every day, at least every week,
[175:02] and that like without whom like I don't
[175:04] really want to live. It's not that I
[175:06] want to die, but life's just so much
[175:08] better with those people in my life.
[175:10] Yeah, how does someone make that list?
[175:12] That 15 names you have?
[175:14] It's all feel. It's the people that I
[175:17] accept and that accept me. You know, my
[175:19] patterns of communication are a little
[175:21] weird. It's gotten me into trouble in
[175:22] life for sure. I'll be, you know, a good
[175:25] friend of mine once said, you know, that
[175:26] I'm like the little um orbiting uh
[175:29] flying robot in Star Wars. I'm like
[175:31] there and then I'm gone.
[175:34] And people that know me, and by the way,
[175:36] he's a very close friend, know that I'm
[175:38] gone, but I but I'm back.
[175:40] And so, I tend to give things my full
[175:42] attention. I'm like 10 out of 10
[175:44] attention and then I need my space to
[175:46] reset. And that hasn't always
[175:50] been healthy, but I've done my best to
[175:51] try and get better at it over time. And
[175:54] people that make that list are either
[175:56] the same way, a few a few of them are
[175:58] definitely the same way where I'm like,
[175:59] hey, I haven't heard from them in a
[176:00] while, but then when I sit down with
[176:01] them or we have a phone call, it's like
[176:03] they're really there. In fact, some of
[176:04] these people will say, let's talk
[176:05] tomorrow, let's talk tomorrow and it
[176:06] never happens.
[176:08] And I know they're not flaky. I know
[176:10] that they're doing other things. And
[176:11] then when they're ready and we get on a
[176:13] call,
[176:15] man, it's the richest interaction I've
[176:17] ever had. It's so deep and so rich. I'm
[176:19] like, I get so much out of a 10-minute
[176:21] conversation. It's like, yes, or an
[176:23] hour-long conversation. And then there
[176:25] are friends that I'll hang out with for
[176:26] a week, I'll go visit, um go for a hike
[176:29] with,
[176:30] but it's the richness of the interaction
[176:32] that matters for me. Not the frequency.
[176:34] Not the frequency. That's right. And
[176:36] then for me, I think people who consider
[176:39] me a good friend or people who
[176:41] understand
[176:43] the intensity that I bring to things and
[176:46] you know, the love and care that I
[176:47] really have for them and that if they
[176:49] need me, I'm there. Like I will tell you
[176:53] I've hit some hard times, some recently,
[176:56] and it was amazing. I had people
[176:57] descending on my home to be with me. You
[176:59] know, I'll tear up if I talk about it.
[177:01] Some of them are names people are
[177:03] familiar with in the in the podcast
[177:04] space.
[177:05] And
[177:07] I was like, oh my goodness, like I
[177:10] like I've not had that.
[177:12] You know,
[177:12] I will get uh emotional.
[177:15] You know, they came to my home and they
[177:17] sat with me
[177:18] and
[177:19] yeah, they picked me up
[177:22] and they reminded me who I am.
[177:24] And um
[177:27] you know, I I've just such immense
[177:28] gratitude for that.
[177:30] Um you know, I'm a 49-year-old man. Um
[177:34] I've done some things correctly. I've
[177:35] done some things I regret.
[177:38] Um
[177:39] I've strived to be the best person I
[177:42] could be at the time, doing the best I
[177:43] had with what I had.
[177:45] And they know that. And I know they know
[177:48] that, not just because they told me, but
[177:49] like you can feel it.
[177:51] And I've been blessed enough not just to
[177:53] know these people, but also
[177:56] that
[177:57] when they've been in need that I've had
[177:58] the opportunity to go to them.
[178:00] You know, and I had to do that several
[178:02] times recently. Things that had nothing
[178:04] to do with me. You just
[178:06] sometimes people will outright ask for
[178:08] help.
[178:09] Sometimes they'll say they're in danger.
[178:10] Sometimes you just sense it. And it's
[178:12] like, that's it. I'm driving, you know,
[178:15] um getting in the car.
[178:17] And um
[178:18] and I've learned the best thing, the way
[178:20] you build that kind of friendship and
[178:22] network
[178:23] is by showing up when that
[178:26] hard stuff isn't happening.
[178:28] And you try and give your full
[178:30] attention.
[178:31] And sometimes that requires putting away
[178:32] the phone and sometimes it means you're
[178:34] both on your phones and you're just
[178:35] hanging out and you're watching a game
[178:36] or you know, it it doesn't mean being
[178:38] what forcing yourself to be somebody
[178:40] you're not, but it means paying
[178:42] attention.
[178:43] And um
[178:46] yeah, and giving giving a significant
[178:47] portion of ourselves to try and
[178:49] really like be there for people. Because
[178:51] ultimately I think
[178:53] that's what we want in social
[178:54] interactions.
[178:55] You know,
[178:57] we want listening, we want shared
[178:58] experience, we want all that stuff.
[179:01] And that stuff's great, but ultimately
[179:03] it's like
[179:04] when you ask who makes the list, it's
[179:05] like
[179:06] I'm thinking of these people now, it's
[179:07] like I feel like they're always with me.
[179:10] You know, and um
[179:13] I wouldn't trade any amount of money,
[179:15] any amount of anything for that.
[179:17] And I think that
[179:19] like a really good life
[179:21] includes some of that.
[179:24] So, you know, forgive me for being
[179:26] emotional um or don't. It doesn't really
[179:29] matter to me. I just feel
[179:30] like uh
[179:32] that's the real stuff that makes life
[179:35] really worth living. And it has nothing
[179:38] to do, you know,
[179:40] uh with dopamine or uh maybe it does or
[179:44] it doesn't matter what the mechanisms
[179:46] are.
[179:46] What matters is that we all have that
[179:48] capacity and it starts by just showing
[179:51] up on a regular basis, showing somebody
[179:52] that you can
[179:54] care about them enough to think about
[179:55] them each morning
[179:57] and and send them a quick good morning
[179:58] text. That's it. And if they don't
[180:00] reply, okay.
[180:02] And if they do, okay.
[180:04] And once the reciprocation starts and
[180:06] you start to feel kind of crewed up just
[180:09] a little bit.
[180:10] Like, oh wow, like there's something I
[180:12] can rely on in this crazy, dizzying,
[180:15] sometimes exhausting
[180:17] really hard life.
[180:20] And then when the good stuff happens,
[180:21] you got that many more people to
[180:23] celebrate with and that much more
[180:25] intensely. So,
[180:28] yeah.
[180:29] Appreciate you letting me share that.
[180:30] It's um
[180:31] it's something that uh
[180:34] at this stage of life, I'm like, okay.
[180:36] Like
[180:38] I know a few things, there's a lot I
[180:39] still have to learn, but
[180:41] that one's for sure.
[180:43] Yeah, friendship is
[180:47] it's vital.
[180:51] You went through a bit of a bit of a
[180:52] storm this year to say the least and
[180:54] I've been through many a storm in my
[180:55] life. I've been through many a media
[180:56] storm when the media came for me and
[180:58] wrote things about me and I've And I
[181:00] don't think anyone that's not been
[181:01] through that before understands how it
[181:03] feels because for me when it happens to
[181:05] me, there's this real sense of injustice
[181:07] and there's this desire for me to want
[181:09] to jump out and correct things and
[181:10] scream and shout and correct the world,
[181:11] but I also know that I can't. And I when
[181:15] I saw
[181:16] again, I didn't see anything, but I'm
[181:17] from afar looking at, you know, social
[181:19] media, when I saw you going through a
[181:20] similar thing my two things happened.
[181:23] The thing one was I wanted to understand
[181:25] the protocols of a man who writes about
[181:28] protocols, has a book coming out about
[181:29] protocols. I wanted to understand what
[181:31] he does in that situation and if he's
[181:32] any more immune than I am because I'm
[181:33] certainly fragile in that regard. But
[181:35] then also I saw this other wonderful
[181:36] thing which I think you've expressed
[181:37] there is I saw
[181:40] your friends show up.
[181:42] I I saw them speak out
[181:45] about your character and who you
[181:46] actually are. And I saw them literally
[181:49] show up at your location. I saw someone
[181:51] like Lex Friedman show up for you. Yeah,
[181:53] showed up at my home
[181:54] several times. He
[181:56] He was just there like literally one day
[181:58] I just like look up and Lex is in the
[182:00] room.
[182:01] And see how I like a dream, right? Like
[182:03] like like Lex Friedman with the suit and
[182:05] the whole thing and um
[182:07] he was just there to just be there, you
[182:09] know. Um
[182:11] yeah, that was a
[182:12] challenge. Um you know, as you pointed
[182:14] out the hardest thing about that and I
[182:17] I realize like most people who aren't
[182:19] public facing
[182:20] um won't experience this, but I think
[182:22] everybody experiences something similar
[182:24] at some point in their life, especially
[182:26] now with social media
[182:28] where things that are being said about
[182:30] you are just fundamentally not true.
[182:34] Fundamentally not true.
[182:36] And they're being cast in a way in a
[182:38] context that is just
[182:40] wrong.
[182:42] And you want to say, "No, that's not how
[182:45] it was." Or the context is completely
[182:47] wrong or there's a completely other side
[182:49] of the story that you'd love to tell.
[182:51] But either
[182:53] because of how that will land and how
[182:56] people misperceive or contort that
[183:00] or simply because
[183:02] you have the etiquette
[183:05] and the respect to not do that because
[183:07] there are sometimes many different
[183:08] parties involved.
[183:10] Um
[183:13] you refrain.
[183:15] And in our case, I decided to just
[183:18] mainly focus on the work at hand.
[183:20] Although I've talked a bit about this on
[183:21] Jocko Willink's podcast.
[183:23] I'll be talking about it here.
[183:25] The pain comes from being
[183:28] potentially misunderstood.
[183:30] And also from the understanding that we
[183:32] didn't always necessarily do everything
[183:34] right. In fact, we may have made some
[183:36] mistakes.
[183:37] And the understanding that
[183:40] the public forum is not the place to
[183:41] work out the details of that. That's not
[183:43] how healing comes. Despite what people
[183:45] might believe, that is not how healing
[183:46] comes. And I don't care if it's a
[183:49] high school situation or a podcaster or
[183:52] a celebrity or a politician, that is
[183:54] just not the way that humans
[183:56] effectively settle their differences.
[183:59] There are consequences, but it's not how
[184:01] things really get settled. And I think
[184:02] we have proof of that given the last few
[184:04] years.
[184:05] So,
[184:07] in that case
[184:08] and I'm not trying to be diplomatic or,
[184:10] you know, kind of um slalom through
[184:12] this. I think what I'm trying to do is
[184:14] make it effective and hopefully useful
[184:16] for everybody. What do you do when
[184:19] you're hearing and seeing things about
[184:20] you or others that you affiliate with
[184:22] that you just fundamentally disagree
[184:24] with?
[184:25] Well, you have three options. You can
[184:26] counter the narrative.
[184:28] You can say nothing. Right? Or you can
[184:30] agree. And herein I think lies the
[184:33] challenge in being an adult, a real
[184:36] adult in the realest sense of the word.
[184:38] A real adult knows when to say,
[184:42] "You know what?
[184:43] Some of the stuff they're saying,
[184:46] yeah.
[184:47] Wish I'd chosen differently."
[184:50] But a real adult also knows to say, "But
[184:52] some of the stuff they're saying, no.
[184:55] That is not what happened, that's not
[184:57] the context and this is categorically
[184:59] false." Now, those things often are
[185:01] interdigitated, okay? Now, at the
[185:03] extremes they're not interdigitated, but
[185:05] oftentimes they're interdigitated.
[185:07] And what people have to realize is that
[185:09] online in comments, in certain forms of
[185:12] media
[185:13] it's just highly skewed. You're getting
[185:15] just one perspective. In the context of
[185:17] science, we'd say this is like
[185:19] cherry-picking data, looking at one
[185:20] particular portion of the graph or
[185:22] throwing out a bunch of experiments
[185:23] because the data weren't what you
[185:24] wanted, which in science is like
[185:27] terrible.
[185:29] Only second in terms of terrible to
[185:30] actually making up data, right? Okay?
[185:33] So,
[185:34] I think the challenge is
[185:37] to the
[185:38] to So, I know that the challenge in
[185:40] those circumstances is to do what in the
[185:42] end I ended up doing, which was to sit
[185:44] down
[185:45] and realize that was the circumstance I
[185:47] was in.
[185:48] And then to try and make a really good
[185:50] decision about what to do.
[185:53] And that I do believe is best achieved
[185:55] through having
[185:57] really good friends, really good
[185:58] co-workers and family members
[186:01] who can
[186:03] be really clear optics for you when you
[186:05] don't always have the clearest optics.
[186:06] Meaning they can
[186:08] hear your ideas and you can spitball
[186:11] what might happen in case A, B or C, but
[186:13] it's not about being tactical. It's not
[186:15] about being strategic. It's about
[186:17] remaining true to yourself. And in my
[186:18] case,
[186:21] I just felt that I didn't want to get
[186:23] into the details.
[186:25] Um
[186:26] and at the same time I acknowledge
[186:29] there's always a learning in these
[186:30] things.
[186:31] You asked whether or not knowing
[186:32] protocols can help. Well, certainly
[186:35] sleep was important. I managed to sleep.
[186:38] There were some days I slept less than
[186:39] others.
[186:40] People had theories. He looks tired,
[186:42] this and that. Sometimes that was
[186:42] related to earlier recordings that I
[186:44] tended to just push too hard anyway. Um
[186:46] sometimes it related to, you know, being
[186:48] kind of troubled about the
[186:49] circumstances. So,
[186:52] I think that
[186:54] one can use physiological size, you can
[186:56] use non-sleep deep rest and I certainly
[186:59] relied on those tools and continue to.
[187:02] Friendship and social support, getting
[187:05] a
[187:06] pool of opinion from people that you
[187:07] really trust. You don't want to get too
[187:09] many opinions
[187:11] often. You want to get just enough and
[187:13] just a variety of them that you can make
[187:15] the best informed decision. I don't
[187:16] really believe in
[187:18] polling 100 people about a circumstance
[187:21] and then you know, taking a vote, pros
[187:23] and cons. That the mind doesn't work
[187:24] that way.
[187:26] So, in the end, you know, I I voted my
[187:29] conscience and I voted my heart um by
[187:32] continuing to just put out content so
[187:34] people could learn about science-based
[187:37] tools for mental health, physical health
[187:38] and performance. I think as time goes
[187:40] on, I may elaborate more on some of the
[187:42] circumstances.
[187:43] But
[187:44] I think in the end, you know, people
[187:45] listen to my podcast because they're
[187:47] interested in getting better sleep, in
[187:49] exercise protocols and hearing from the
[187:51] best scientists and clinicians
[187:54] so that they can better themselves in
[187:55] their own life.
[187:56] And people speculate all sorts of
[187:58] things. It's also interesting to see how
[188:00] we presume so much, not just about
[188:02] public facing people, but about other
[188:05] people in the comment section. You know,
[188:07] for instance, on my Instagram page
[188:10] I have rules. It's classroom rules. You
[188:12] can call me names if you want. You can
[188:14] say most things, but I sort of treat it
[188:16] like a classroom. What would I tolerate
[188:18] in the classroom? And if people start
[188:19] attacking each other,
[188:21] you're going to get a warning and if you
[188:22] keep going, I'm going to block you. Just
[188:24] just because
[188:26] first of all, it's my page, right? This
[188:28] whole notion that you're not allowed to
[188:30] block people is crazy, right? It's your
[188:31] webpage, it's your classroom.
[188:33] Yeah. You have every right. You can say
[188:35] what you can do whatever you want. I
[188:37] mean, where is the rule that says that
[188:38] you won't tolerate
[188:40] or that you need to tolerate whatever.
[188:42] You know, people swearing at each other
[188:44] very different to me than people
[188:46] swearing. So, people can swear, fine.
[188:47] Swear at each other? Well, then I'm
[188:49] going to say, "Hey, hey, hey, like stop
[188:50] this. Do it again, you're done." Least
[188:52] here, go elsewhere. And
[188:54] there's so much presumption. We think we
[188:56] know these people on the internet. And
[188:59] we really don't. Mhm. On the other hand,
[189:00] there's certain people like Lex, like
[189:02] you. I'm really delighted in this
[189:04] conversation. Like Rick. I like to think
[189:06] like me, like I am who I am. Now, you're
[189:08] not seeing every dimension of my life,
[189:10] but frankly, you're not supposed to.
[189:13] And I think there's this inherent desire
[189:14] to know everything about everybody Mhm.
[189:17] um that we see online and comment
[189:20] sections and on Instagram. And And
[189:22] frankly, it's inappropriate. I grew up
[189:23] in an era where
[189:25] that wasn't right. In fact, my my father
[189:27] um once told me he Again, he's from
[189:29] Argentina. And he said, "You know,
[189:30] there's this funny thing in the United
[189:32] States. You go into somebody's office
[189:33] and they've got all these pictures of
[189:34] their kids
[189:36] facing outward." He said, "You go into
[189:37] somebody's office
[189:38] in certain parts of Europe or in South
[189:41] America and the picture of their family
[189:43] is facing them."
[189:45] So, on my dad's desk in his office
[189:47] when I was a kid, he had a picture of me
[189:48] and my sister and my mom and it faced
[189:50] him. Mhm. Because those are for him. He
[189:52] wasn't like, "Here are my kids. Here's
[189:54] my Here's like my life." And I I love
[189:56] that. That's And that's kind of how I
[189:57] was raised. You know, you you keep
[189:59] certain things inward and certain things
[190:00] are outward. So, I don't know. I I
[190:03] That's the model I was raised with and I
[190:05] rather like that. This notion that we
[190:06] have to share every aspect of ourselves
[190:08] on social media is crazy and I think
[190:11] it's actually detrimental.
[190:13] If I was if I was a fly on the wall when
[190:15] you were going through that what would I
[190:16] have seen? And I what I cuz I'm what I'm
[190:18] trying to The reason I'm asking this
[190:20] question is super clear because if you
[190:21] were a fly on the wall when I was going
[190:23] through some of my hardest times you
[190:25] would have seen someone that was really
[190:26] struggling.
[190:28] Okay, so I'll say this.
[190:31] That was definitely not my hardest time.
[190:34] Um hardest times for me were
[190:39] the door's locked. I'm 14.
[190:43] I'm like behind locked doors.
[190:45] Mhm. I don't know if I'm going to get
[190:46] out, when I'm going to get out.
[190:48] You know, I
[190:50] called the one person I knew would pick
[190:51] up, guy named Steve Rougie, Shrugie. He
[190:54] was my team manager for Thunder and
[190:55] Spitfire Wheels. I called him, I said,
[190:57] "Shrugie, what am what am I going to do?
[190:59] I'm locked up in this place." And his
[191:00] response was "Bro, you're the most
[191:02] normal guy I know. What am I supposed to
[191:04] do?" You know, I thought, "Oh my
[191:06] goodness, what am I going to do?"
[191:08] Um
[191:09] Yeah, that was scary. That was like,
[191:11] "What do I do? I'm 14. I have no agency.
[191:13] I I don't I don't mean like marketing
[191:15] agency. I had no ability to like no
[191:17] money, no anything." Now, it worked out.
[191:20] Other hard times, that time I talked
[191:22] about July 4th after that fight, "What
[191:24] am I going to do with my life? I'm a
[191:25] complete loser." Other times
[191:28] you know, I've had this weird karma with
[191:30] mentors. I've had three amazing
[191:32] scientific mentors. And the relationship
[191:34] between mentors and science
[191:36] mentor and students in science used to
[191:38] be much closer. You'd get really close.
[191:40] My undergraduate advisor was an amazing
[191:42] person. My graduate advisor was like a
[191:44] mother to me and was a truly amazing
[191:46] individual. And my post-doc advisor,
[191:48] also incredible and I was incredibly
[191:50] close with all of them. And it was
[191:51] suicide, cancer and dead at 50, cancer
[191:54] and dead early 60s.
[191:56] Like three people I was super close
[191:58] with. And when Ben, the third guy, died,
[192:00] I thought, "Well, there's only one
[192:01] common denominator. That's me." I
[192:02] thought I was cursed.
[192:04] Really? Yeah. I'm like, "I work for you,
[192:06] you die."
[192:07] You know, and I was like
[192:10] "Shit, like what is going on here?" But
[192:12] then I
[192:14] did what I only
[192:15] know how to do, which is you transmute
[192:17] the
[192:18] pain into useful things. And I started
[192:20] thinking, "Okay, how do I want to spend
[192:22] the rest of my life? I want to be of
[192:23] service. I want to take what I know in
[192:24] science. I want to teach people things
[192:26] that help them." And I didn't know
[192:27] exactly how I was going to do that, but
[192:29] it birthed the podcast.
[192:32] I also had three dead mentors. I was a
[192:34] scientific orphan. In science, there's
[192:36] also a lot of trying to live up to the
[192:38] reputation that they expect of you.
[192:39] Well, mine are all dead. So, some people
[192:41] say, "What do your colleagues think of
[192:42] the podcast?" I would say about a third
[192:44] of them like it. They think it's cool.
[192:46] And they say that to me. About a third
[192:48] probably think it's great that people
[192:49] pay attention to science, but are like,
[192:51] "Some of it is more health-oriented."
[192:52] And the third probably hate it for
[192:54] whatever reason. Either jealousy or they
[192:55] don't like the way I present things. And
[192:57] I'm good with all of that cuz guess
[192:58] what? My advisors are dead. I'm a
[193:00] grown-up. You do you, I'll do me. We're
[193:02] all good.
[193:03] And frankly
[193:05] we'll see how it all works out.
[193:06] Meaning
[193:08] they're the ones who have to live with
[193:10] themselves. I'm the one who has to live
[193:11] with me. So, like I'm not
[193:13] responsible for other people's feelings
[193:14] and they're not responsible for me. So,
[193:17] cool. So, it's symbiotic.
[193:20] What I eventually discovered was
[193:22] huh, you can reach 40 and have a great
[193:25] career. I was tenured at Stanford and a
[193:27] bunch of things, but wow, like certain
[193:29] aspects of my life were still
[193:30] challenging. I had you know, those three
[193:33] deaths plus you know, um this was some
[193:36] years ago, unrelated to the recent
[193:37] events. I you know, I had a really
[193:39] important relationship end.
[193:41] Just like end after a lot of years of
[193:43] really slogging it out and trying to
[193:44] make it work and you know, failure is
[193:47] not something I'm used to. In fact, a
[193:48] friend of this woman um I was at a at a
[193:51] retreat and we were talking about it and
[193:53] I was really distraught about the end of
[193:54] the relationship. And she said, "You're
[193:55] not used to failing, are you?"
[193:58] And I
[193:59] almost said like, "Yeah." And I said,
[194:00] "You're right. You're right. I've I've
[194:02] been successful in career and and a
[194:04] relation a relationship that I we were
[194:06] both really invested in and we just
[194:07] didn't have the skills. I made my
[194:09] mistakes, she made hers, but we really
[194:12] really fought hard.
[194:13] And it didn't work out. And I was like,
[194:16] "Wow, like okay, I had a failure. Like a
[194:18] legitimate failure."
[194:20] And you could say, "Well, was it really
[194:21] a failure? You learned." But look, there
[194:23] were elements of failure. All right? We
[194:25] had invested a lot of years, a lot of
[194:27] energy and there was a lot of love, but
[194:29] Why Why does that make you emotional? I
[194:31] can see it in your face. It's Um well,
[194:33] this relates to a lot of these things
[194:34] that I um and I I suppose I I feel
[194:37] comfortable enough to open up about
[194:38] this. I think that
[194:40] you know,
[194:41] some people might have the perception
[194:42] that I'm like extremely self-interested.
[194:44] I've had
[194:46] things thrown at me like, "He's a
[194:47] narcissist." Or what Or worse, you know.
[194:50] Like I have had one I've had many, but I
[194:53] have one particular major challenge
[194:56] that I still strive to overcome.
[194:59] And people can roll their eyes and they
[195:01] can say it's but I know this
[195:02] to be absolutely true, which is that
[195:05] I have a very hard time letting go.
[195:08] A very hard time letting go. If somebody
[195:09] dies, like I can handle that.
[195:12] But
[195:13] like loss and letting go of people I
[195:17] care about
[195:18] is really hard. And it's also coupled
[195:21] with this kind of style that I have of
[195:23] I'm like very present and then I need to
[195:24] go take care of myself, right? Um in
[195:27] healthy ways.
[195:28] So, that can be confusing to people. I
[195:30] realize that, but there's this thing
[195:32] where
[195:34] like the idea of things ending is super
[195:38] hard. And as a consequence, I've stayed
[195:40] in relationships
[195:41] far too long.
[195:43] I mean, you know, I sometimes joke, but
[195:45] it's not funny. My breakup protocol
[195:47] sucks and it really needs work because
[195:51] everyone close to me who knows me really
[195:52] well and who I trust says
[195:55] "You stay in relationships way too long
[195:57] that were either fated to fail or that
[196:00] were clearly going to fail. At some
[196:02] point, you just kept slogging away."
[196:04] Now, sometimes I slogged away in the
[196:06] wrong ways and they did, too.
[196:08] But somehow I've um
[196:10] I've really struggled to move on from
[196:12] things. And as a consequence, I've
[196:14] stayed in things far too long that never
[196:16] had a chance, that were really
[196:17] unhealthy. And in particular, I've taken
[196:20] on things that were just
[196:21] far too difficult from the beginning.
[196:23] And so, that relationship was a
[196:25] beautiful relationship. I'm fortunate
[196:27] that I'm still friends with that person,
[196:29] although we have to keep a certain
[196:30] amount of distance just at healthy
[196:32] boundaries.
[196:33] And
[196:35] you know, I get emotional because like
[196:38] damn it, like we fought so hard. Like so
[196:41] hard. And it was all out of love.
[196:44] But I think it I know that it failed
[196:48] because
[196:50] we just didn't have the skills. The
[196:52] timing wasn't right.
[196:54] And I'm certainly not talking about this
[196:56] most recent relationship. You know, this
[196:58] year's hard stuff. This was some years
[196:59] back. But like we fought so hard. And
[197:03] like I would have done anything.
[197:05] And she would have done anything to make
[197:07] it work. And I'm just like I'm not a
[197:09] quitter.
[197:10] I'm far from perfect, believe me, but
[197:12] I'm not a quitter. And as a consequence,
[197:14] I think after that
[197:17] it for a while, it just really changed
[197:19] the way that I interacted with things. I
[197:21] I just didn't quite recover. And one
[197:23] could argue that the emotion that's
[197:24] coming up for me now means that I didn't
[197:26] recover.
[197:27] But I know I just
[197:29] I just
[197:31] refuse to call time of death.
[197:33] I just refuse to call time of death even
[197:35] when it's long since dead. And that's a
[197:39] mistake and it's something I'm really
[197:41] working on now because it hurt me. It
[197:44] it's not good for other people.
[197:46] And it dovetails with a bunch of other
[197:48] unhealthy ways of being.
[197:50] Um but what I know for sure is that
[197:54] it's not selfishness. It's not that I'm
[197:56] trying to avoid pain for myself. It's
[197:59] related to my failure to be able to
[198:03] just
[198:05] tolerate pain in other people and myself
[198:07] simultaneously. There's something about
[198:09] empathy gone wrong in those
[198:10] circumstances. Is that linked to your
[198:11] childhood? Parents Parents' separation
[198:14] and them
[198:15] Yeah, so people I pay a lot of money to
[198:17] tell me that it no doubt does. But
[198:19] what's weird is I never lament the
[198:21] separation of my parents. I don't sit
[198:22] back and go, "Oh, I wish they had stayed
[198:23] together." They were both wonderful
[198:25] people. They both have wonderful
[198:26] partners. Like I've had a magnificent
[198:28] life. I've had a great life. Like
[198:30] everything I've sought to do has
[198:32] happened. And there's still things I
[198:34] want. But I think that um
[198:37] I was talking to Martha Beck about this
[198:39] recently. There's this feeling with a
[198:41] dog
[198:42] where I love the dog
[198:45] and they love you back. Particularly my
[198:46] dog Costello, right? I loved him and he
[198:48] loves me back. And so it's like empathy,
[198:51] but then you it's returned. It's like a
[198:52] perfect circle. It's like the energy is
[198:54] like I the more I love, the more love I
[198:55] feel. The more love And I think with
[198:57] people it's not like that, right? You
[198:58] know, people are going to disappoint us,
[198:59] etc. But
[199:01] they can also delight us.
[199:03] But I think that there's been this
[199:04] problem where my empathy goes too far.
[199:07] And I'm sure as I'm saying this people
[199:08] are like, "Oh god, he's trying to mask
[199:11] this in empathy." No, I can
[199:14] wholeheartedly say didn't always lead to
[199:15] the best choices and I own those
[199:17] choices. But meaning I'll take
[199:19] responsibility for my part. I won't take
[199:21] responsibility for other people's part,
[199:23] right? It's always a two-way street. But
[199:26] when we
[199:28] have a sense of empathy and that
[199:32] other person isn't right for us and we
[199:34] continue to try and
[199:36] like feed the relationship
[199:39] it's not about trying to avoid getting
[199:40] them upset, but somehow we get into
[199:42] these unhealthy dynamics and then you
[199:44] know, it can really bring out
[199:46] the worst, but some really like
[199:48] unhealthy parts of people. You know, I
[199:50] think the probably the hardest thing in
[199:51] life is
[199:53] is romantic relationships. Some people
[199:55] might say it's work, but I think it's
[199:57] the hardest thing in life. And people
[199:58] say, "Well, when it's right, it's easy."
[200:00] I don't know. I think it depends on how
[200:01] complicated a person you are.
[200:03] You know?
[200:04] Um
[200:05] I think it depends on how complicated a
[200:06] person you are and the extent to which
[200:08] the other person is willing to do the
[200:09] work. I've really seen this. I've also
[200:12] had wonderful relationships
[200:14] whereby
[200:16] we're each willing to do the work on
[200:18] self-care
[200:19] and communication. You know, Paul Conty
[200:22] said this not on my podcast, but I think
[200:23] he was telling Whitney Cummings on a
[200:25] podcast, you know, if you were to list
[200:27] out the 100 most important things in
[200:29] romantic relationship, you would just
[200:31] say self-care and communication 50
[200:33] times.
[200:34] And I think that's absolutely true
[200:36] because we need safety. We need
[200:38] acceptance. Yes, those are foundational,
[200:40] non-negotiables, necessary, but not
[200:42] sufficient. But I think
[200:44] we need
[200:45] communication and self-care and
[200:47] those are hard. And you know, I'm still
[200:49] learning
[200:50] and trying to build those skills. I
[200:52] absolutely want a family, so this is
[200:54] super important to me. Um and I'm
[200:57] putting a ton of work and effort into
[200:58] it. So
[200:59] I didn't realize we were going to go
[201:00] into this territory, but I will say for
[201:02] people who are struggling with
[201:03] relationships just know that you know,
[201:06] you can have amazing friendships and
[201:07] still struggle with romantic
[201:08] relationships or vice versa. Like again,
[201:10] like
[201:11] friendships and I have male friends and
[201:12] female friends. Mostly male friends, but
[201:14] a few female friends
[201:15] um that I'm very close with like
[201:18] it's just
[201:20] been amazing. I have great relationship
[201:22] with my sister. I think I have a very
[201:24] good relationship with my parents, with
[201:25] my uncles and aunts. Like like
[201:27] with my co-workers, my ability to pick
[201:30] business partners and co-workers just I
[201:33] only hit bull's-eyes. Like I love my
[201:34] team and we get along great and little
[201:37] things get worked out quickly and
[201:38] um but I think everyone has one or two
[201:40] areas of life where it's a bit harder
[201:42] and
[201:43] just trying to learn the skills and I'm
[201:44] working on it like
[201:46] You and me both though, right? I I it
[201:47] didn't come naturally to me.
[201:50] separated, I was willing them to because
[201:52] I was They took They were just They hate
[201:55] Hate's a strong word. It appeared that
[201:57] they hated each other.
[201:59] For you know, watching my mother scream
[202:00] at my my father for 7 hours a day every
[202:02] My mother's Nigerian, my dad's English.
[202:04] Was It was a traumatic experience and
[202:05] the thing it left me with is this clear
[202:08] notion which I left the household with
[202:09] at 18. It was that a relationship is
[202:12] prison.
[202:13] And I was I was so hardwired into me
[202:15] because I thought my father was in
[202:16] prison. So every time someone was
[202:18] interested in me growing up, I would
[202:19] self-reject I would reject them. So I'd
[202:21] pursue them and then when they turned to
[202:23] me and said, "Okay, let's be in a
[202:23] relationship." I would
[202:25] persuade them out of it. I would tell
[202:27] them why this was a terrible idea
[202:29] because I was getting the feeling that I
[202:30] vicariously learned through my father. I
[202:31] was like, "I'm about to basically lock
[202:33] myself in a prison where this person's
[202:35] going to screw going to be able to
[202:36] control me and my freedom." So I
[202:37] rejected relationships up until about 27
[202:40] years old.
[202:42] So you know, and then even that
[202:43] relationship wasn't a straight line
[202:44] because 2 years in she turns around and
[202:46] says she doesn't like having sex with
[202:47] me. Turns out she's got her own traumas
[202:49] around sex. We have a year where she's
[202:51] on the other side of the planet. I
[202:52] didn't have the tools as you say to
[202:54] understand what how to navigate such a
[202:56] conversation. So for me I'm emasculated.
[202:58] I'm going,
[202:59] "Maybe there's something wrong with me."
[203:02] She doesn't want sex with me, dump her.
[203:04] And then but she was the right person.
[203:06] And what I the the TLDR of that story is
[203:09] a year later I end up flying to the
[203:10] other side of the world apologizing to
[203:12] this person for
[203:14] my lack of tools, my lack of
[203:15] communication skills because it was the
[203:17] right person at the wrong time.
[203:19] And we did the work.
[203:21] And that was long and it was hard and
[203:23] it's still hard, but it's in an amazing
[203:25] place at the moment.
[203:26] Oh, you're back together? Yeah, we live
[203:28] together. She's flown from back from
[203:30] Bali 2 years ago. We live together. The
[203:32] best the right person for me, but it's
[203:35] hard work. Good for you. You like hard
[203:38] work. I It's a wonderful story. I mean,
[203:40] it's a happy story regardless of
[203:42] ultimately how it turns out because one
[203:46] can sense like the real
[203:48] uh
[203:48] central chord of love there and um
[203:52] and the the desire to make it work. I
[203:54] mean, it's it's so interesting this
[203:56] notion of make it work. You know, we
[203:57] Again, just as being a functional adult
[203:59] means saying, "Yep, you're right about
[204:02] this, but no."
[204:03] Yeah. I'm going to stand my ground. In
[204:05] relationships people say relationships
[204:07] take work. Of course they do. And then
[204:09] the question is how much work relative
[204:10] to how much ease and it's highly
[204:11] individual and there's no handbook for
[204:13] this.
[204:14] There's no handbook for it and and so
[204:17] And the reward on offer cuz I was
[204:18] convinced that she was the most amazing
[204:20] person I'd ever met. It just so happened
[204:21] that she turns around to me one day and
[204:23] says she doesn't like having sex with
[204:24] me.
[204:25] Yeah, that's rough. That's rough, right?
[204:27] Especially for a young You have no
[204:28] concept of what that might be. You think
[204:30] maybe you're bad in bed or something.
[204:32] But as she did the work on herself and I
[204:34] did the work on myself, she unlocked a
[204:35] bunch of traumas around sex and how
[204:37] she'd been treated with sex as she grew
[204:39] up, which she she resolved and she's
[204:41] been very public about this. This why I
[204:43] can share it. And I did a bunch of work
[204:44] on myself and how to deal with how I
[204:47] communicate when someone says brings me
[204:49] such a thing. And after a year of her
[204:51] working on that and a year of me working
[204:53] on myself, we found ourselves in a place
[204:55] where it turns out she loves sex now.
[204:57] She's arguably more sexual than I am in
[204:59] many respects. Completely different
[205:01] individual, but it just require and I I
[205:03] have to give the ending there cuz people
[205:05] are going to be wondering.
[205:06] But it required a lot of work on me and
[205:08] myself and where I've come from in the
[205:10] situation of my my family and her and
[205:13] the experience she's been through. And
[205:14] we found ourselves together now in a
[205:15] great place.
[205:17] And that still requires work.
[205:19] But in a great place. So you know,
[205:21] everyone's everyone's struggling with
[205:22] some You know, my family's not
[205:24] great. We we're not that close. I'm not
[205:25] that close to certain
[205:26] members of my family. I've struggled
[205:28] with romantic relationships, made all
[205:30] the mistakes. I struggle with with
[205:31] platonic relationships with my friends.
[205:34] I'm not the guy that's able to check in.
[205:35] I like being alone.
[205:37] You know, it is what it is. We're all
[205:40] you know, uniquely challenged in some
[205:42] way. So I've got a great amount of
[205:43] empathy for what you shared and I I
[205:45] really appreciate you for sharing it cuz
[205:47] there's so many people that can relate
[205:49] in various ways. I'm one of them. Um and
[205:51] I think it's important cuz we don't talk
[205:52] about it enough.
[205:54] Well, thank you for sharing your
[205:55] experience and for giving me the
[205:56] opportunity to share a bit. Um
[205:59] you know, the conversation started
[206:00] around you know, hard circumstances and
[206:03] you know, it's about taking stock of
[206:06] where we trust ourselves um
[206:09] to make the right decisions, where we
[206:11] need work and
[206:13] yeah, relationships are hard, but I do
[206:16] think that well, certainly now I'm
[206:18] feeling um more ease, you know, more
[206:20] seamlessness with them. Certainly with
[206:22] friendships as I mentioned, you know, we
[206:24] all have these areas of proficiency
[206:27] where we are
[206:28] you know
[206:29] where we find that things are kind of
[206:31] easier or even easy for us. They just
[206:33] kind of happen with direct relationship
[206:35] between effort and outcome, right? And
[206:36] then these other areas where we feel
[206:38] like we're rolling a boulder uphill.
[206:40] It keeps coming back and crushing us and
[206:41] we keep doing it.
[206:43] And I think that
[206:45] you know, there's no simple or universal
[206:47] answer.
[206:49] But you know
[206:51] I think
[206:52] the rewards that come from a
[206:55] relationship where there's been a lot of
[206:56] hard work and things get resolved even
[206:58] in one little domain are so tremendous.
[207:02] You know, I think that's really um
[207:03] related to this sense that like
[207:06] when things end it's just so it feels so
[207:08] devastating. I I really believe that
[207:11] things can be talked through. I really
[207:13] do. I think that um
[207:16] you know, resent and anger
[207:18] um they don't serve anyone. They really
[207:21] don't. And people are probably hearing
[207:24] this and saying, "Well, that's a
[207:24] self-serving narrative." But really I
[207:26] I'm talking about it in in myself, too.
[207:28] I don't I don't carry any resent and any
[207:30] any anger. You know, I sometimes wish
[207:32] people had made different choices, but
[207:34] ultimately like we can't control what
[207:36] anyone else is going to do or say or
[207:38] think and that's terrifying, right?
[207:40] People can really hurt us, right? They
[207:42] can really hurt us.
[207:43] And we would love to create a world in
[207:45] which we're completely safe, but I think
[207:46] that
[207:47] a lot of the work I've been doing lately
[207:49] is really around
[207:51] um you know, kind of like touching back
[207:53] into maybe a
[207:54] younger version of myself that um wasn't
[207:57] so walled up.
[207:58] Wasn't um
[208:01] so
[208:02] focused on what's going to happen in two
[208:04] or three iterations of something. Just
[208:06] really being as present as possible.
[208:08] Really focusing as it's probably become
[208:10] clear today a few times on like the
[208:13] amazing gifts that I have in my life
[208:14] right now
[208:16] that pursuing goals is great and wanting
[208:18] things is great. Certainly, there are
[208:19] things I want and want to build, mostly
[208:21] in the domain of relationships and
[208:22] family, but
[208:24] but also just like really savoring like
[208:27] having one's health or having
[208:29] um the opportunity to sit down and have
[208:30] a conversation like this. Like Like what
[208:32] a What an extraordinary life
[208:35] we each have if we really pay attention
[208:37] to some of these gifts. I used to think
[208:39] that if we paid attention to those gifts
[208:40] and focused too much on gratitude that
[208:42] it would make us complacent. But all the
[208:44] data, of course, and my own experience
[208:47] as I do this more and more really
[208:48] emphasize how all it does is give us
[208:50] more energy, more anticipation of
[208:54] what's possible and the great things to
[208:55] come. And you know, it can all start to
[208:58] sound a little cliché like just be happy
[209:00] with what you got. There
[209:01] There's no just in that statement. I'm
[209:03] saying be happy with the things you've
[209:06] got.
[209:07] And from that state, new things emerge.
[209:09] More energy comes and you can start to
[209:11] really navigate forward, not just sit
[209:14] complacently and like stop there.
[209:16] Um I think it's our essence as
[209:18] biological beings and psychological
[209:20] beings and
[209:22] if you will, spiritual beings, if that's
[209:23] your your leaning too, to want um to
[209:27] want more. I think that's normal, but we
[209:28] have to savor what we have also. And I
[209:30] think once we savor what we have, we
[209:32] have more energy to want more and and
[209:34] that's That's the perfect circle that
[209:37] just is I guess it's more of an upward
[209:38] spiral. And here I'm sounding very
[209:40] abstract, but I could easily and, you
[209:43] know, exhaustively put everyone to sleep
[209:46] with long mechanistic descriptions of
[209:48] how research our motivation or dopamine
[209:51] or um any number of different neural
[209:53] systems or physiological systems support
[209:55] all of that. I think the most important
[209:57] thing is that people are honest with
[209:58] themselves about what they can
[210:00] reasonably work on right now, and to be
[210:04] you know,
[210:05] gentle with themselves enough to like
[210:08] coax themselves forward, but
[210:09] occasionally scruff yourself and be
[210:10] like, "It's time. You know, it's time."
[210:13] And um I don't know, it's certainly been
[210:15] life thus far. I'm still navigating, you
[210:17] know, and
[210:19] um
[210:20] I certainly don't have all the answers,
[210:22] but as I learn and I try and share what
[210:23] I do learn. What has helped you on that
[210:25] journey? That journey to really kind of
[210:27] Cuz the way I heard it is
[210:29] you're someone that's orientated towards
[210:31] pursuing your goals and you're very very
[210:32] driven in that regard, but you're you're
[210:33] kind of having to kind of Maybe this is
[210:35] not the right word, but kind of unlearn
[210:38] a natural disposition and shift more
[210:40] towards another state. You talked about
[210:42] therapy there. You're You um What has
[210:45] helped? Well, I think you know, I was
[210:46] forced into therapy as a way to get out
[210:49] of lockup. I had to To stay in high
[210:51] school, I had to go routinely, and so I
[210:54] did. Um I think it can be very helpful
[210:57] provided there's good rapport, support,
[211:00] and the person offers insight that lends
[211:02] itself to action, right? It's not just
[211:04] about finding someone to support and
[211:06] listen. Someone has to inspire action
[211:08] that makes you a better person, okay?
[211:10] That And that's really important. So
[211:12] we're not just talking about
[211:14] playing with your problems, you know, a
[211:16] story fondling as it's sometimes called.
[211:18] I think one has to understand that
[211:20] there's a relationship between
[211:22] physiology and emotion. So if I'm waking
[211:23] up and I don't feel well cuz I didn't
[211:25] sleep enough, yeah, I'll do NSDR, get
[211:26] some sunlight, and I'll go exercise, and
[211:29] generally I feel better. But I also have
[211:31] learned to not mask real feelings
[211:33] by simply trying to shift my physiology.
[211:35] Just as people are starting to learn,
[211:36] "Hey, yes, there are useful medications
[211:38] for dealing with mental health issues,
[211:40] but you still have to do the work. You
[211:42] still have to focus on building career,
[211:43] building relationships, doing the work."
[211:46] I think one of the most useful things
[211:48] that I've learned
[211:49] Again, I'm a big fan of Martha Beck.
[211:51] She's triple degreed from Harvard, but
[211:52] she also has this
[211:54] mystical, spiritual side that it really
[211:56] brings together a lot.
[211:57] I asked her recently, I said,
[211:59] "You know,
[212:00] what do you do when the thinking mind is
[212:03] like trying to analyze something,
[212:04] predict things, and then you also have
[212:05] all this feeling? Which one do you rely
[212:07] on?" She says, "Ah,
[212:08] the the way to do this is you imagine
[212:12] you have your feelings in one hand
[212:14] and your thoughts in the other, and
[212:16] they're kind of like in this battle.
[212:17] It's like, "Okay, what's going to happen
[212:18] next? What are they going to do this?
[212:19] How do they You go back and forth."
[212:20] Typically, people are texting and
[212:21] calling and looking and drinking and
[212:23] doing whatever it is to try and resolve
[212:24] this battle.
[212:25] The solution is to see that battle
[212:28] and to sit back into a this third
[212:29] position that
[212:31] she calls the compassionate observer.
[212:34] Where you're like, "Okay,
[212:35] this is
[212:37] both happening. These are both
[212:39] happening." And to sit in this third
[212:40] position where you realize trying to
[212:42] reconcile just with your thoughts or
[212:44] just with your emotions or settle down
[212:45] your emotions or settle down your
[212:47] thoughts is futile. To get in this third
[212:49] position where the acceptance of that
[212:51] suffering
[212:52] shows up, and you're able to just like
[212:54] sit with the suffering. And the moment
[212:55] she said, "Sit with the suffering," I
[212:57] was like, "No!" You know, I don't want
[212:59] that answer, but then she explained,
[213:00] "From that place of suffering,
[213:03] you start to drop into what are the
[213:04] thoughts that make you feel a little bit
[213:06] looser and more relaxed in your body?
[213:09] What are the thoughts that make you feel
[213:10] kind of more constricted?" And you just
[213:12] start to use that as a bit of a
[213:14] navigator.
[213:15] And
[213:17] start asking questions like, "You know,
[213:19] do I want to do this thing? Like do I
[213:21] want to drink this coffee or not? Am I
[213:22] just doing it compulsively? Do I want to
[213:24] exercise?" And it sounds very abstract,
[213:26] extremely woo, but the brilliance of
[213:28] what she does and the brilliance of that
[213:30] scenario is that it brings together all
[213:33] the neuroscience that we know. We have a
[213:34] thinking, analytic part of the brain
[213:36] that does what I call DPOs, duration,
[213:38] path, outcome analysis. We also have
[213:40] emotional states of the brain, the
[213:41] limbic system, it's sometimes called,
[213:42] but it's a bunch of other areas, too.
[213:44] And it doesn't know the clock or the
[213:46] calendar, as Paul Conti, brilliant
[213:48] psychiatrist, says.
[213:49] Feelings don't know that it's
[213:52] today in July 2024.
[213:54] It thinks you're 8 years old. That The
[213:55] limbic system, your emotions, they don't
[213:58] know the clock or the calendar. It
[213:59] doesn't know how old you are. It just
[214:01] knows you and circumstances and feeling.
[214:03] So being able to step back from all of
[214:05] that is really what
[214:07] being a healthy human being is about.
[214:10] And then realizing you're suffering.
[214:12] Like in that battle, you're suffering.
[214:13] And when you relax that a little bit and
[214:15] you go,
[214:16] "Okay, I'm not going to force myself to
[214:18] suffer as much. Now what feels right?
[214:21] What feels right right now for like the
[214:22] next 5 minutes?" Well, then you can
[214:24] navigate the next 5 minutes. Maybe it's
[214:27] take a nap, maybe it's have a meal,
[214:28] maybe it's do a little bit of work,
[214:30] maybe it's you don't know, and you just
[214:31] sit there. But then 5 minutes later,
[214:33] you're able to pick the next best choice
[214:36] and the next best choice, and pretty
[214:37] soon you're off and on your way. Because
[214:39] so often we get avalanched by our
[214:42] feelings or our thoughts or we can't
[214:44] sleep, and it's just like,
[214:46] And people are losing their minds and
[214:48] they're online looking for a solution,
[214:49] and they use distraction, alcohol,
[214:52] mindless scrolling. By the way, I love
[214:53] social media. I teach on social media
[214:54] and I learn on social media from your
[214:56] podcast and Joe's podcast and Lex's
[214:58] podcast and Tim's pod and on and on. So
[215:02] I'm not demonizing it, but mindless
[215:04] consumption, inebriation,
[215:07] numbing ourselves,
[215:09] or forcing ourselves to do things that
[215:11] are not in service to our well-being,
[215:13] none of that is good. What's good is
[215:15] being able to sit with it. And in doing
[215:16] that, I've started to realize that you
[215:18] get back to what she calls, and again,
[215:20] the language sounds woo, but who cares?
[215:22] She's the one with three degrees from
[215:23] Harvard, so call her whatever you want.
[215:26] You know,
[215:28] is the what she calls essential self,
[215:30] which I think refers to our own unique
[215:32] wiring. What really feels right to us.
[215:34] Trusting in our own goodness, trusting
[215:36] that
[215:37] if we just navigate forward from that
[215:39] compassionate observer place,
[215:41] that we are going to be In some cases,
[215:44] we need to be fierce, we need to be a
[215:45] warrior, in other cases, we need to be
[215:47] soft and compassionate, and then we can
[215:49] be all of those things depending on what
[215:51] the the situation calls for. And then we
[215:53] can just like sit back and move forward,
[215:56] and that
[215:57] we're going to be okay. In fact, we're
[215:59] going to be better than okay. And that
[216:00] when we bring that stance, that like
[216:02] calm, energetic stance to things and
[216:05] other people, we also have a ton to
[216:06] give. We can be in so much service. This
[216:09] is one of the reasons I think people
[216:10] love Rick.
[216:12] I think about Rick a lot. Rick Rubin's a
[216:13] close friend.
[216:15] And I'm very blessed. And it's not
[216:17] because he's Rick Rubin, the famous
[216:18] musician. In fact, I know zero minus one
[216:20] about hip-hop. Oh, yeah, I just don't It
[216:21] wasn't a genre I followed. I like some
[216:23] of it, but
[216:24] but one thing is that when Rick shows
[216:26] up, he's just like there. He's super
[216:28] present. He's not there to give you
[216:31] anything, but he gives.
[216:33] And he's not there to take anything. You
[216:35] He's just there.
[216:36] And I think that's why people love him.
[216:39] I think that's why people love him. Yes,
[216:40] he's been super successful in all these
[216:42] different domains. And when people try
[216:43] and poke at Rick, that's something that
[216:45] really pisses me off. You want to really
[216:47] get me worked up? Try and pick on one of
[216:50] my close friends. Like I That's a place
[216:52] where I am
[216:54] like, you know, come at me, attack me
[216:57] all day, and you people do. But if you
[216:59] try and attack people I know in their
[217:01] true goodness, Lex or Rick or any number
[217:04] of my different friends,
[217:06] famous or not, like that's when I'm
[217:08] going to you know, that's when a side of
[217:10] me comes out that frankly I
[217:12] I'm proud of.
[217:13] Like I'm going to hit you, and I'm going
[217:16] to hit you hard.
[217:18] I'm going to be fair, but like you can't
[217:20] do that because these are really good
[217:21] people trying to do the best they can in
[217:23] the world. And this is true
[217:25] me protecting my sister, you know? I'll
[217:27] also be the first if a friend is out of
[217:29] line to say something, but the people
[217:30] I'm referring to here, they show up with
[217:32] like all their goodness.
[217:34] Joe's the same way. And people talk
[217:36] about Joe, and I'm like, "Mm-mm." People
[217:39] have tried to get me to talk about
[217:40] him. Reporters have called me to try and
[217:43] set me up like a trap a snare trap to
[217:46] say things about him. No chance. He's
[217:49] done things
[217:50] that I've seen that had nothing to do
[217:52] with me in service to others that are
[217:54] completely quiet, that no one will ever
[217:56] hear about,
[217:58] that absolutely tell me that he is a
[218:00] huge-hearted person who cares about the
[218:02] world and takes care of people close to
[218:04] him and far away from him without the
[218:06] expectation of anything in return. And
[218:08] I'm not saying this so that he likes me
[218:10] more. I'm saying this cuz it's true. And
[218:12] I think that, you know,
[218:16] Martha Beck's another one or people that
[218:18] like
[218:20] they just want to give. And so when I
[218:21] see people attacking people and I can
[218:23] sense this about you, we're getting to
[218:24] know one another here.
[218:26] Like the fact that you're trying to
[218:27] attack someone whose
[218:29] fundamental goal is to try and serve the
[218:31] world, build things to serve. Like
[218:33] and there are a few things that get my
[218:35] adrenaline going like that, but that's
[218:37] not okay. It's not okay.
[218:40] And I think it's really important that
[218:41] we stand up for people who are not known
[218:44] either. We stand up for them and that we
[218:46] say that's not okay. You you can't take
[218:48] cheap shots like that.
[218:50] And so I think times are changing there.
[218:52] Times are changing, you know, the um
[218:56] I don't have anything against
[218:57] traditional media. I see the way they
[218:58] capitalize on things. They'll put
[219:00] different names and URLs and trying
[219:02] bring clicks and stuff. Look, they're
[219:04] just trying to make an income.
[219:05] Um and I think some of them presumably
[219:08] are good people just trying to do their
[219:10] thing. What I love about podcasters,
[219:13] what I love about the early, you know,
[219:16] the skateboarders I knew from the
[219:17] skateboard era, some of my still in
[219:19] touch with now,
[219:20] um punk rockers, the people in creative
[219:24] areas, artists and musicians and poets,
[219:26] it's like they didn't get into it
[219:28] because they thought people would like
[219:29] them or they'd make a lot of money.
[219:31] And a lot of times they take ridicule.
[219:34] They got into it because it's who they
[219:36] are. It's their essence. They're just
[219:38] being them.
[219:39] And I think we can really tell
[219:41] somebody's just being themselves. It's
[219:42] like their real essence just brought
[219:44] forward and they're taking
[219:46] fire and they're taking shrapnel and
[219:48] they're and they do it anyway. You know,
[219:50] I I'm I know he's very popular now,
[219:53] um even though he's dead, um but I've
[219:56] always loved Jean-Michel Basquiat's
[219:58] work. And if you watch that movie, I
[220:00] don't know if you've seen the movie
[220:01] Basquiat, not the the documentary, but
[220:03] amazing movie. It's got Dennis Hopper,
[220:05] uh Parker Posey, um David Bowie plays um
[220:09] Andy Warhol. It's an amazing cast,
[220:11] Willem Dafoe. It's just an amazing cast.
[220:13] And there's this incredible scene
[220:15] where Jean-Michel and Benicio Del Toro,
[220:18] who I believe was
[220:20] playing Jean-Michel's friend, who was
[220:22] Vincent Gallo. Jean-Michel says to him,
[220:25] he goes, "Hey Benny, how long do you
[220:27] think it takes to get famous?"
[220:28] And the answer that Benicio Del Toro
[220:31] gives him is amazing. He talks about how
[220:34] fame
[220:36] ultimately just brings a lot of attack.
[220:38] And how that can really collapse the
[220:41] artist. And it's it's a beautiful
[220:43] 2-minute riff on YouTube that everyone
[220:44] should go watch. And if anyone out there
[220:46] thinks they want to be famous, I'll tell
[220:48] you, you do not want to be famous.
[220:50] Famous takes away your freedom. People
[220:52] say they want to be famous. I you
[220:53] absolutely don't. What you want is you
[220:55] want a friend
[220:57] or friends that you love and that love
[221:00] you. You want to have enough resources
[221:02] plus a bit more so that you feel safe.
[221:05] Right? Anyone that says you only need
[221:06] $70,000 a year in order to be happy cuz
[221:08] some study said that,
[221:10] You need enough money so that
[221:13] you feel safe about your present and
[221:15] your future. That number differs for
[221:17] different people. Okay? So, that's a
[221:19] study. I don't care what the data say.
[221:21] Like look at the real world. And usually
[221:24] it's a rich person saying you only need
[221:25] that amount of money, by the way.
[221:29] You need some sense of passion or
[221:31] connection to the world.
[221:33] And
[221:34] you need a sense of freedom that you can
[221:36] be you.
[221:37] And that you won't get attacked for it.
[221:40] And we know this throughout history.
[221:41] This has been proven over and over
[221:42] again. So fame is Like fame
[221:45] takes away your freedom.
[221:47] The rest of it, social connection, some
[221:50] resources,
[221:51] a connection to some passionate
[221:53] exploration, curiosity, even if it's
[221:55] very private and no one ever sees it.
[221:57] Like those things are are really what
[221:59] make life rich. It really really
[222:02] does. And I have fantasies about just
[222:04] disappearing.
[222:06] Taking a small group off to some hidden
[222:08] village and we do our thing, but but I
[222:09] know myself too well. I'd want to
[222:12] um I'd want to connect with the world
[222:14] more. It's just in my nature to want to
[222:15] do that. So,
[222:17] I suppose I'm kind of hosed. And I
[222:19] suppose the world's kind of stuck with
[222:20] me until they aren't.
[222:22] But no, I I I have those fantasies as
[222:24] well and I I I arrive at the same
[222:25] conclusion that I'd eventually do
[222:27] something in the village which would
[222:28] bring me back to society and then bring
[222:30] me back to probably sitting in this
[222:31] chair. Well, and you know, I've thought
[222:32] about getting some people together and
[222:34] we should do this. We could get a
[222:35] property, put a bunch of houses, put a
[222:36] gym, a sauna, get up a podcast studio,
[222:38] but guess what? They'd call it a cult.
[222:41] They'd be like, they started a cult,
[222:42] right? They'd find something, be like,
[222:44] they started a cult. Because I think to
[222:46] people that are not passionate creators,
[222:50] and again, I'm not just talking about
[222:51] podcasters, but that aren't passionate
[222:52] creators,
[222:54] they don't understand. Like they don't
[222:56] understand that
[222:58] certain people just need to create.
[223:00] Yeah. And
[223:02] God bless them because we need somebody
[223:04] to write articles from a perspective
[223:05] that they don't understand to get other
[223:07] people to think things that aren't true.
[223:09] Because that's what they need to do.
[223:10] Like they serve an important role. Like
[223:12] in the aquarium of life, on the coral
[223:14] reef of life, you need the little like
[223:16] horseshoe crabs working there. When you
[223:18] say like, well, what's the purpose? It's
[223:19] part of an ecosystem. It's somehow
[223:21] indirectly serves the rest. Although
[223:23] sometimes it's kind of hard to tell. And
[223:25] as we head into this election, as as we
[223:27] head into like really uncertain times, I
[223:29] think we tend to go, "The media or the
[223:31] podcasters or the the" Look, everyone's
[223:34] doing the best they can with what
[223:35] they've got. Just some people are
[223:37] working a little bit harder to be kind
[223:39] and benevolent and giving
[223:41] and acknowledging we're all human.
[223:43] And others are like pointing fingers.
[223:45] So. Of all the protocols you've shared,
[223:48] it seems like maybe the most important
[223:49] is friendship.
[223:51] Send that morning text. Find somebody
[223:53] that you can communicate with
[223:55] that will communicate with you, that you
[223:56] trust. You don't have to share a ton. I
[223:59] don't want to give the impression that I
[224:01] sit there with my friends and like share
[224:03] all the inner workings of my mind and
[224:05] what's going on, you know? I mean,
[224:06] that's that's why I have this notebook.
[224:07] So I don't have to do that. It's like I
[224:09] got stuff in here I never want anyone to
[224:11] see.
[224:12] You know, but
[224:14] yeah, find a friend. Like friendship is
[224:16] huge. And and it's the start of all
[224:19] great things.
[224:20] Right? It it's the reflection of all
[224:22] great things inside of us.
[224:24] Right? It's
[224:25] not the complete picture. Romantic
[224:27] relationship for many, for most is
[224:29] really important. Get a dog, get a fish,
[224:31] get a plant, sure. But I think
[224:32] friendship really is like the most
[224:34] important thing that all of us can
[224:36] really focus on right now
[224:38] aside from
[224:40] partnership and children because of
[224:42] course children need us and
[224:44] they need our our attention and our
[224:46] support, but friendship is is super
[224:48] powerful.
[224:50] And rather than talk about the isolation
[224:52] crisis, the loneliness crisis, I'd
[224:54] rather talk about some solutions. And I
[224:56] think friendship,
[224:57] maybe even just a morning text back and
[225:00] forth. Good morning. Good morning. How'd
[225:01] you sleep? Pretty good. Not well. Okay.
[225:04] Bye.
[225:06] Next day, it's there. The being able to
[225:08] rely on that like clockwork, like the
[225:10] sun rising and setting each day, you can
[225:12] count on that.
[225:14] It's just brings a lot of peace. It'll
[225:16] make you a better version of yourself.
[225:17] Do your friends know what
[225:20] you mean to them?
[225:21] Having gone through those difficult
[225:22] moments, did did you were you were you
[225:24] able to articulate to them how much you
[225:27] appreciated them for that?
[225:29] Mm. I'll get emotional again. I I don't
[225:32] I don't think they could know.
[225:34] You know, it's it's like
[225:36] there's one friend in particular. Um
[225:38] there's a guy who's actually very
[225:39] prominent in the skateboarding
[225:40] community. He he's quiet in that
[225:41] community. I'll I'll say his name
[225:43] because he's so humble, you know. He'll
[225:45] never say it himself. His name is Jim
[225:46] Thiebaud. And when I was 14 years old,
[225:49] Jim,
[225:51] who now runs a big company called
[225:52] Deluxe, which is a bunch of companies
[225:53] and he he's kind of the the he's kind of
[225:56] the mayor of the whole sport. He's um
[225:59] back then, I remember I was 14. This was
[226:02] after I got out of this place.
[226:05] And um he rolled up to me in Embarcadero
[226:08] and he sat next to me. He just like sat
[226:10] next to me. Gave me a coffee
[226:12] and some stickers. And he was like,
[226:15] "What's up, man?" And he's probably
[226:16] about 10 years older than I am.
[226:18] And we started talking. And he gave me
[226:21] one of his books. Sorry, Jim. I'm going
[226:23] to embarrass him. He had these poetry
[226:24] books. Great book. I still have it. It's
[226:26] called Loose Change. And he had another
[226:27] one called Do the Distance.
[226:29] And he goes,
[226:31] "You should write."
[226:33] I'm like, "Okay." And I started writing.
[226:34] I started keeping a journal. And that
[226:36] one interaction carried me through so
[226:38] many hard times. Now, years later, I had
[226:41] a really hard circumstance. Things were
[226:43] going well in my life. I was making
[226:44] progress on a certain front that I'd
[226:46] been challenged with with for some time.
[226:49] And then one day just brack.
[226:53] Everything came crashing down.
[226:56] And like magic, Jim showed up. I'm not
[227:00] I'm not saying he got a call from the
[227:02] universe. Somebody called him and he
[227:04] showed up.
[227:05] And he just sat with me. Now, I'm an
[227:07] adult at this point.
[227:08] He just like sat with me.
[227:11] And um
[227:14] and I hear from him every morning, you
[227:15] know? And I still text him every
[227:17] morning. He texted me today. He's here
[227:19] in LA today. We won't see each other.
[227:21] So, he's busy. I'm busy. We got work.
[227:24] I would love to see him, but he's busy
[227:25] and I respect that he's busy and he
[227:27] respects that I'm busy.
[227:29] It's like, wow, you know, 14 and then 40
[227:33] some years and he's there again. And I
[227:35] like to think I've been there for him,
[227:36] too.
[227:38] You know? And
[227:39] you know,
[227:40] when I was that kid, at some point he
[227:42] knew, in some way he knew exactly what I
[227:45] needed. I needed those books. I needed
[227:47] something. And you know, even when I
[227:48] tell him now about that, he goes, "Oh,
[227:50] no, that poetry is so bad." You know,
[227:51] he's embarrassed about that. And I'm
[227:52] thinking, "No, man, you like saved my
[227:54] life with that stuff." And I kept them.
[227:57] I still have them. And so I think he
[227:59] must have like sensed that I was a
[228:01] really like feeling person and I was
[228:04] really in a trench. And we've seen a lot
[228:07] of our friends go dead or in jail and in
[228:08] trouble. We've seen a lot of people do
[228:10] extremely well. Jim's an amazing guy
[228:12] because he's the one who calls the
[228:15] decisions on a lot of things in the kind
[228:17] of social milieu of skateboarding. He's
[228:19] taken a lot of I don't want to get
[228:20] into the details, but he's helped evolve
[228:22] skateboarding in some ways that it was
[228:23] very resistant to evolving. You can
[228:26] largely credit the true diversity in
[228:29] that sport. You know, people talk about
[228:31] diversity, but look at that sport. Look
[228:33] at the number of different races. Look
[228:35] at the fact that you've got straight
[228:37] kids, gay kids, trans kids. You've got
[228:40] room for the kids who have parents and
[228:42] the parent involvement. You've got
[228:44] kids that don't have have any parents.
[228:46] You've got people trying to help each
[228:47] other get sober and stay sober. You've
[228:49] got people like
[228:50] Jim has taken so much
[228:54] publicly on the chin maintaining
[228:58] complete silence about his rationale
[229:00] except with one mission in mind, which
[229:02] is keep the sport going in the
[229:04] healthiest way possible that's most
[229:05] inclusive for the most number of people
[229:07] cuz he knows the importance of having a
[229:09] place where kids that don't fit in in
[229:12] other sports can come, but also the
[229:13] importance of having it be an Olympic
[229:15] sport, which skateboarders on, too.
[229:18] And so, this isn't about skateboarding.
[229:20] I want to make very clear.
[229:21] It's about Jim and the fact that he
[229:24] understands his sense of purpose, his
[229:25] sense of duty. He knew well enough that
[229:27] even though he was a professional
[229:29] skateboarder that he would better serve
[229:30] the community by doing something else,
[229:32] which is to be a leader. He leads
[229:33] quietly. Like I think about him all the
[229:36] time. So, do they know how much I
[229:38] appreciate them? There's no way. I could
[229:40] go on for hours about him, the things
[229:42] he's done for me. Anyone that knows that
[229:44] sport or knows Jim knows exactly what
[229:46] I'm talking about. He'll never have a
[229:48] podcast. He'll never go on a podcast.
[229:50] Maybe he'll
[229:51] bless us with coming on my podcast. But
[229:53] some people like him like I hope they
[229:56] but
[229:58] people like him in my life and I hope
[230:00] they know. But there's no card you can
[230:02] send that can capture all that. I think
[230:05] it's just like checking in on on him
[230:07] every morning and just, you know, giving
[230:09] him a big hug when I see him, you know,
[230:12] and um I saw a tweet recently. It was
[230:13] like normalizing or no, it was the dude
[230:15] with sign guy who was super funny. I
[230:17] think it said normalizing telling your
[230:19] friends you love them.
[230:20] I don't think that was for women.
[230:21] Hopefully they're doing that, too. I
[230:23] think it's for men. Like I'm not shy
[230:25] about that. I tell my friends, I love
[230:27] you. I've also
[230:29] had the experience of not doing that and
[230:31] then I never see that friend again. So,
[230:34] I'm not trying to be overly sentimental,
[230:36] right? It's really about just like
[230:39] like living your life with as much heart
[230:42] forward as is safe and appropriate,
[230:45] right? So, anyway, um that's one
[230:48] example. There's there's no way they
[230:49] could know. He just sat with me. I find
[230:52] those to be very interesting words
[230:53] because we think about the role of a
[230:55] friend in that situation of fixing
[230:56] things. Diving in there, figuring out
[230:58] the problem and presenting the solution,
[231:00] but you said he just sat with me.
[231:02] Oh, man. When Barbara Chapman, my
[231:04] graduate advisor, died, I was
[231:06] devastated. And she had two small girls
[231:08] and I knew her when she was pregnant
[231:09] with each one of them and I was close
[231:10] with her family and I went to the House
[231:11] of Flowers in San Francisco. And her
[231:14] daughters get up. Okay, one I think was
[231:16] probably about 12, the older one. The
[231:17] younger one,
[231:18] by the way, became a neuroscientist,
[231:20] that time was probably about nine. And
[231:23] these two girls that I've known since
[231:24] they were essentially in the womb are
[231:26] there talking about their dead mother.
[231:29] Now, I broke down. I during my eulogy,
[231:31] like I just lost it. I was crying in
[231:33] front of my colleagues.
[231:35] I was so embarrassed and at the same
[231:36] time like I just couldn't hold it back.
[231:39] These two young girls
[231:42] get up there to talk about their dead
[231:44] mom. And I'm thinking to myself, oh my
[231:46] god. Everyone's just bracing themselves.
[231:49] And they just said
[231:51] they're so strong. They said
[231:53] the best part about our mom is that she
[231:56] spent a lot of unstructured time with
[231:59] us.
[232:00] And that was it.
[232:02] And they sat down. And I remember
[232:04] thinking
[232:05] holy
[232:07] Like that was it. Of all the things they
[232:09] did, the baseball games they went to,
[232:11] the things they did. I'm sure they have
[232:12] so many memories. And the thing they
[232:14] remember as most important is the fact
[232:15] that their mom spent a lot of
[232:17] unstructured time with them. Just hung
[232:19] out with them.
[232:20] Mhm.
[232:21] Like just hung out with them. And I
[232:23] think at some level like yeah, we need
[232:25] people to show up when things are hard.
[232:27] We need people to support us, celebrate
[232:29] with us, but like
[232:30] some ways like a really good friend is
[232:32] just somebody who just kind of hangs out
[232:33] with us. Simon Sinek said that to me. He
[232:35] said what in those moments what you need
[232:37] is someone just to sit in the mud with
[232:38] you. You don't need them to do anything.
[232:40] They just need to be sat there in the
[232:41] mud with you.
[232:42] And that that in part is the medicinal
[232:45] effect, just knowing that there's
[232:46] someone else in the mud with you. Yeah.
[232:48] Um Yeah. You know, I I
[232:51] again, I don't want to focus on names
[232:53] people recognize because I don't want it
[232:55] to seem like it's unique to them, but I
[232:58] I mention names like specific names
[233:00] because they may resonate with your
[233:01] audience, you know. That's why I
[233:02] mentioned Rick or whatever or like a guy
[233:04] like Lane Norton I'm getting to know
[233:06] better. Like Lane on social media is a
[233:08] pretty, you know, serrated edge guy,
[233:11] right? But he's he's a sweetheart. He's
[233:14] a kind person and he's got a
[233:16] ferociousness to him, you know, which is
[233:18] something I can relate to. He, you know,
[233:20] and um
[233:21] and I see his loyalty to his kids and I
[233:24] see, you know, how he like his
[233:25] fingernails will be painted and people
[233:27] will tease him and but he does it cuz
[233:29] his daughter loves it and he also is the
[233:30] guy that's going to deadlift twice as
[233:32] much as anyone else. And he's and he's
[233:33] got this forward center of mass on
[233:35] things. And then I also just see like
[233:37] he's just such a loving person. He loves
[233:39] what he does. And and I hope people will
[233:41] start to look at people's personas,
[233:44] certainly online, but in real life and
[233:46] just start to like take them in a little
[233:49] bit. Like what are they trying to tell
[233:50] you when they're
[233:52] being a little bit annoying? Or what are
[233:53] they trying to tell you when they're
[233:55] frustrated by politics? Like like
[233:57] looking a layer deeper and trying to
[233:59] like see the person and feel the person
[234:01] as as an experience of them as like
[234:03] another way I think to be a really good
[234:05] friend. Because when people say like, I
[234:06] see you, I don't think they're like I
[234:08] see you. Like you need to do some eye
[234:10] gazing or something. I think what it is,
[234:12] I mean eye contact's important, of
[234:13] course, but I don't think it's
[234:15] it's related to like taking them in
[234:17] visually as much as just like really
[234:19] appreciating that
[234:21] they have all these different sides, all
[234:22] these different facets. You know,
[234:24] earlier you were talking about your
[234:25] relationship. I mean, what you described
[234:27] to me is like real intimacy.
[234:29] Like sure, things proceed along great.
[234:31] Then there's this challenge. It's a big
[234:33] one. There's some shame associated with
[234:34] it. There's confusion. And then people
[234:36] go into their different domains, do
[234:37] their work, come together and like share
[234:41] and then grow. I mean, that's intimacy.
[234:43] It takes risk. It takes a certain amount
[234:46] of healthy risk and um I think we can do
[234:48] this in all relationships. And um you
[234:50] know, I'm no psychologist and I'm still
[234:52] learning. And Lord knows I have a lot of
[234:54] work to do, but um I'll be damned if I'm
[234:56] going to quit. I'm going to keep trying.
[234:58] Andrew, we have a closing tradition on
[235:00] this podcast where the last guest leaves
[235:01] a question for the next guest not
[235:02] knowing who they're going to be leaving
[235:03] it for.
[235:05] And the question left here for you is
[235:09] what is the true meaning of your life?
[235:14] Why do you exist?
[235:18] Mhm.
[235:19] Goodness, that's a tough one. Meaning,
[235:22] it's hard to distill that down.
[235:26] But I'll pause for a second in an effort
[235:28] to keep it uncharacteristically brief.
[235:36] You know, as I mentioned earlier, all I
[235:38] have is my experience the knowledge that
[235:42] I gained from that experience and my
[235:44] words.
[235:46] And
[235:49] for me, the purpose of my life is to
[235:53] make the best possible choices that I'm
[235:54] capable of making at the time in terms
[235:56] of
[235:57] what to seek out what to learn
[236:01] and what to share. And I think the real
[236:04] meaning of my life is to try and provide
[236:07] useful information and tools so that
[236:08] people can be
[236:10] a better version of themselves for
[236:12] themselves and other people. And I know
[236:14] it sounds lofty and kind of empty and
[236:16] cliché on the one hand, but I mean it. I
[236:18] wake up in the morning and I think, what
[236:21] can I learn? What am I excited to learn?
[236:24] And then when I come across gems I just
[236:27] compulsively have to tell people about
[236:28] it. But not because
[236:31] I need to do it for me. It's because I
[236:33] feel like people need to know about
[236:36] this. This can really help. This can
[236:38] really help. This can potentially really
[236:39] really really really help.
[236:41] So, I think that's the meaning of life
[236:43] for me. Right now? Right now.
[236:46] And um at some point it may be
[236:48] just to provide care for
[236:51] little
[236:53] Hubermans.
[236:55] Um at some point it may be something
[236:58] entirely different. I've learned to not
[237:00] anticipate what the next steps will be
[237:02] for me um more than five years out.
[237:06] You know, I've seen some ridiculous
[237:07] speculation that I'm going to go into
[237:09] politics, probably related to the fact
[237:11] that I kind of alluded to it once or
[237:12] twice.
[237:14] I'm not going into politics. I'll tell
[237:16] you right now. There's no chance I'm
[237:18] going into politics.
[237:20] It runs countercurrent to my nature.
[237:23] And even if politics changed entirely
[237:27] it's not for me.
[237:28] Um what is for me is
[237:31] learning and adventure and sharing what
[237:34] I learn.
[237:35] And
[237:36] that's the only way I know how to be.
[237:42] Andrew, thank you. I didn't know you
[237:44] before today. I obviously knew of you
[237:45] because everyone knows you on on the
[237:47] internet for all the work that you've
[237:48] done and all the things that you've
[237:49] shared, but I didn't know the man and
[237:52] the hours we've spent together today
[237:53] have really illuminated the man that you
[237:55] are. And it's really most importantly
[237:57] illuminated your intentions, which are
[237:58] so incredibly pure and wonderful. And
[238:02] it's because of you that much of my
[238:04] podcast exists because I learn from your
[238:06] show. It inspires me and that calls me
[238:09] to bring guests on often times guests
[238:11] that you've had on your show that have
[238:12] changed my life in some way. So you've
[238:14] been a tremendous driver of both my
[238:16] development as an individual but also of
[238:18] this show inadvertently. And also that's
[238:20] the case with all of my team because the
[238:21] 30 40 people that work with me here,
[238:23] they're all massive fans of yours but
[238:24] most importantly they've had their lives
[238:26] improved because you exist and because
[238:28] you've taken very complex things and
[238:30] distilled them down and shared them with
[238:32] all of us in a way that we wouldn't
[238:33] usually have access to. So that's such a
[238:36] tremendous gift that you've given and
[238:37] continue to give. So thank you on behalf
[238:39] of myself and all of my team and
[238:40] everybody else that was so excited all
[238:42] my friends that were so excited that I'd
[238:43] be speaking to you today.
[238:45] I'm tremendously excited about your
[238:47] book. I hear that there's a book coming
[238:48] out called Protocols
[238:50] an operation an operating manual for the
[238:52] human body
[238:53] which comes out next year in the 22nd of
[238:55] April 2025. If there was ever a book I
[238:57] don't get excited by many books but
[239:00] having been such a fan of your work it
[239:01] is a book that I'm
[239:03] I consider to be essential. We were
[239:04] talking about it yesterday. We see it as
[239:06] it was almost like waiting for the like
[239:07] the Bible on this subject matter matter.
[239:09] So I I'm going to link it below because
[239:12] I know it's currently available for
[239:13] pre-order or pre-sale and I highly
[239:15] recommend if people find what you do to
[239:17] be of any value then this is the book to
[239:19] read. Um I've been doing everything I
[239:21] can to just get snippets of it from
[239:23] people around you and the excitement and
[239:25] anticipation is palpable. So thank you
[239:27] for taking the time to write that book
[239:28] cuz you don't have to. You've got a big
[239:30] enough audience as it is. You don't have
[239:31] to sit down and really distill it down
[239:32] for people. Um and more than anything
[239:34] just thank you. I really really
[239:35] appreciate that you what you do and that
[239:37] the fact that you exist and all that
[239:39] you've done for me and and all my my
[239:41] friends and people that matter to me. So
[239:42] thank you on behalf of all of us. And I
[239:44] really really mean that from the bottom
[239:45] of my heart. So thank you. Thank you.
[239:47] I'll take that in and um I'm very
[239:49] grateful for the opportunity to sit down
[239:51] with you today. I'm a huge fan and an
[239:52] admirer of what you've done and what
[239:54] you're doing
[239:55] and uh right back at you in the sense
[239:58] that
[239:59] you have many many areas of success. You
[240:01] don't need to do a podcast um but the
[240:04] fact that you do bring so much benefit
[240:05] to the world. It's been just
[240:08] marvelous to see your ascent which is
[240:10] just like pointed at the sun. You just
[240:12] you guys are are doing such incredible
[240:14] work and continue to. And um you know I
[240:17] have to say I came here today expecting
[240:19] we were going to get into some science
[240:21] into some protocols and I knew we were
[240:22] going to cover a lot of areas um but I
[240:25] didn't anticipate uh the depth of the
[240:28] conversation that we were going to have
[240:30] and I can say it's entirely the
[240:32] consequence of of your realness and and
[240:36] the uh
[240:37] the you know the the genuine compassion
[240:38] that you bring to these kinds of
[240:39] conversations. That's felt. I also
[240:41] really appreciate the way you shared
[240:43] some of your own experience. I can tell
[240:44] you're somebody who really cares about
[240:46] people
[240:47] and that your success is you know in no
[240:50] small part the consequence of that. So
[240:53] thank you for having me here and to your
[240:54] team for having me here
[240:56] and um
[240:57] and for for doing what you do. It's
[240:59] clear you're all in in every endeavor
[241:02] and your nature is is an incredible one.
[241:05] The fact that you can take on so many
[241:07] things and that you've embraced your
[241:08] nature to not want to go the traditional
[241:12] path. I think that's an incredible and
[241:13] incredibly important example for people.
[241:16] So
[241:17] I can also say that I think that we're
[241:19] going to be friends. So you should pass
[241:20] me your number and we'll we'll check in
[241:21] in the morning and we should grab a meal
[241:23] or a workout or whatever. Maybe we just
[241:25] hang out. So I I'd like to think that
[241:28] we've sparked a friendship. We certainly
[241:30] have. Thank you Andrew. Thank you.
