Trevor Noah Links Daily Show Exit to Untreated ADHD and Isolation

The Diary Of A CEO

The former Daily Show host attributes his recurring struggles with depression not to clinical mental illness, but to the neurodevelopmental effects of untreated ADHD coupled with modern male isolation.

AI-assisted summary of Trevor Noah: My Depression Was Linked To ADHD! Why I Left The Daily Show! — original source. Check the original for full context.

Source published: 2024-10-17

Detailed notes

## Background This episode was published on YouTube by The Diary Of A CEO (hosted by Steven Bartlett) on October 17, 2024. According to the page description, the interview features comedian, author, and former host of 'The Daily Show' Trevor Noah discussing his childhood in South Africa, his mother's shooting, his struggle with depression and untreated ADHD, and his reasons for leaving late-night television.

## TL;DR In this wide-ranging conversation, Trevor Noah opens up about growing up under Apartheid as a mixed-race child, surviving domestic trauma, and processing his mother surviving a point-blank gunshot wound. He offers deep reflections on modern male loneliness, the importance of non-transactional friendships, and his decision to step away from 'The Daily Show' after seven years as host. Noah also reveals how discovering his adult ADHD explained his recurring bouts of depression, sharing practical grounding techniques, his views on therapy, and why he rejects the idea that trauma must happen for a reason.

## Atmosphere & style The conversation carries an intimate, contemplative, and intellectually curious mood, striking a balance between heavy personal reflection and grounded, analytical insight. Steven Bartlett acts as a receptive, empathetic host, allowing Noah room to unpack complex emotional terrain with characteristic eloquence, humor, and self-awareness. Watching the interaction feels like eavesdropping on a late-night, deep conversation between friends, moving seamlessly from painful childhood trauma to lighthearted observations about society and human connection.

## Key takeaways - [07:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=456s) Growing up as a mixed-race child in Apartheid South Africa meant Trevor Noah was legally classified differently from both of his parents, making his very birth an illegal act. - [16:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=970s) Witnessing severe domestic violence and seeing his mother shot in the head by his stepfather fundamentally shattered Trevor's sense of safety, driving lifelong hyper-vigilance. - [45:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2741s) Trevor views the modern crisis of male isolation as a downstream effect of macro-economic failures, middle-class erosion, and a lack of non-commercial 'third places' where men can bond over shared activities. - [01:25:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5107s) When stepping into Jon Stewart's role on The Daily Show, Trevor faced intense public backlash, declining ratings, and death threats, which he overcame through team solidarity and perspective from critics' past patterns. - [01:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5700s) Trevor's adult depression was driven by untreated ADHD; difficulty regulating focus often led to hyperfocusing on existential dread and negative rumination loops. - [01:41:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6074s) Choosing to leave The Daily Show after eight years came from recognizing during the pandemic that he had placed work above his personal life and wanted time to explore life outside the news cycle. - [01:57:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7041s) Through therapy, Trevor learned to transition from intellectually analyzing his trauma to sitting directly with primary emotions rather than masking them with anger or work. - [02:09:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7783s) To counter depressive spirals, Trevor uses physical check-ins—auditing sleep, food, movement, and breath—alongside sensory grounding techniques to break negative thought patterns. - [02:14:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8047s) Reconnecting with his biological father provided crucial self-understanding and demonstrated the unique value of maintaining non-transactional friendships late into life. - [02:30:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9040s) Trevor rejects the idea that trauma must be rationalized as 'happening for a reason' or that it shouldn't be erased; instead, he advocates for the 'Pencil Test', focusing on writing a new story moving forward.

## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=0s) Teaser: Untreated ADHD, *The Daily Show*, and the Male Connection Crisis

Trevor Noah opens the conversation by reflecting on a period when life felt utterly meaningless, admitting that he used to ask himself what he was doing with his life. It was only later that he realized the depression he was experiencing was actually the result of untreated ADHD. He now uses specific personal strategies and frameworks to navigate these struggles. The episode's introduction framing highlights his journey from being born in South Africa to a Black mother and a white father—an illegal union under Apartheid—to enduring a chaotic, unsafe household under an abusive stepfather who eventually shot his mother point-blank in the head.

Despite these overwhelming hardships, Trevor moved to America to pursue stand-up comedy and ultimately secured the role as host of *The Daily Show*. The transition was initially fraught with severe public backlash and violent threats. Through grueling 17-hour workdays, he helped build the show into a global phenomenon. However, that immense success came at a steep cost: work swallowed his existence, pushing personal connections aside. Trevor notes that this isolation is not unique to him, pointing to a broader crisis where a generation of men lacks the practice and habits of meaningful human connection.

---

[02:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=135s) The Ingredients That Make a Person

When asked what critical elements from his childhood formed the man he is today, Trevor pauses to consider the complexity of breaking down human identity. He compares a person to a recipe or a dish, noting how difficult it is to single out one decisive ingredient—whether it is the crunch, the salt, the acid, or the fat. He credits a vast blend of influences: his sense of humor, his South African roots, the schools he attended, and the places he lived.

``` ┌────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ PARENTAL INGREDIENTS │ │ • South African Xhosa Mother │ │ • Swiss Father │ └───────────────────┬────────────────────┘ │ ▼ ┌────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ EXTENDED FAMILY & CARE │ │ • Maternal Grandmother │ │ • Bipolar Grandfather (Unpredictable) │ └───────────────────┬────────────────────┘ │ ▼ ┌────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ THE SPONGE CAKE ANALOGY │ │ Base cake: Essential traits │ │ Icing/Shape: Every person encountered │ └────────────────────────────────────────┘ ```

Elaborating on this metaphor, Trevor describes human nature as a basic sponge cake. While the foundational cake itself is fairly simple, the true character, texture, and flavor come from how it is decorated afterwards. He emphasizes that every person we bump into adds a layer of "icing" that continuously reshapes us, which is why he remains deeply intentional about choosing his friendships today.

* **Parental Roots:** Born to a Xhosa mother from South Africa and a Swiss father living in South Africa. * **Grandparents' Influence:** Spent significant time with his maternal grandmother and his grandfather, a wildly funny man whose then-undiagnosed bipolar disorder made him intensely entertaining. * **Friendship Philosophy:** Views intentional friendship choices as a way of actively selecting who continues to shape his character over time.

---

[05:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=319s) Apartheid and the "Lucky Breaks"

Trevor frames his early childhood context around being born in South Africa in 1984, six years before the legal end of Apartheid. Growing up mixed-race created a uniquely isolated dynamic because South Africa’s racial classifications were intricate, leaving him in a position where few people shared his exact background.

> "I look at these ingredients which aren't necessarily the best in choosing your starting points, but then there was a series of lucky breaks."

He considers the timing of Apartheid's fall as one of the single biggest strokes of luck in his life. Had Apartheid continued for another ten years, he would have been 16 before receiving basic freedoms, unable to attend the previously white-only schools that drastically shifted his educational path and future trajectory.

---

[07:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=456s) Growing Up as a "Crime" Under Apartheid

Explaining the realities of Apartheid, Trevor contrasts it with other global systems of racial division. Rather than a simple binary system like the Jim Crow South in the United States, Apartheid was a meticulously calculated regime that combined oppression strategies from around the world—drawing from Australian policies toward Indigenous populations, Dutch colonial structures, and Nazi Germany's racial laws.

``` ┌─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┐ │ THE INSIDIOUS APARTHEID SYSTEM │ ├─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┤ │ • Engineered by studying global oppressive regimes (US, Australia, Nazi)│ │ • Designed to fracture a majority into smaller, manageable minorities │ │ • Classified race by precise skin shade rather than cultural heritage │ │ • Strictly segregated residences: White > Mixed (Coloured) > Black │ └─────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────────┘ ```

Because he was light-skinned, the law categorized him differently from his mother. In the absurd legal hierarchy of the time, Trevor was considered legally superior to his mother, while his white father was considered legally superior to him. Because of these distinct classifications, the three of them could not legally cohabitate or even live in the same neighborhood.

To keep him safe from police raids in Soweto—a designated Black township where a light-skinned child would immediately draw law enforcement suspicion—his grandmother kept him strictly indoors. She would lock the doors, though Trevor would frequently try to dig holes under the perimeter gate to sneak out and play in the street with other neighborhood kids. At the time, he assumed his grandmother was just being overly strict out of love, not realizing she was terrified that the authorities would seize him.

---

[11:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=689s) Hiding in Plain Sight with His Parents

In public, navigating daily life required constant deception. Trevor explains that when he walked down the street with his mother, she had to strategically disguise her relationship to him.

To avoid arrest or having her child taken away, his mother would dress and act as a domestic worker or nanny taking care of a client's child. Passersby and police assumed she was simply employed by a wealthy family, allowing them to move through public spaces undetected.

* **Public Interactions with His Father:** Absolutely prohibited; he could never be seen with his father in public under any circumstances. * **Public Interactions with His Mother:** Disguised as a domestic nanny-employer dynamic to pass through streets without raising suspicion.

---

[12:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=739s) Childhood Perception, Trauma, and Gabor Maté

The host brings up a conversation with physician Gabor Maté, who traced his own childhood trauma and the onset of his ADHD back to a brief, few-day separation from his mother during the Holocaust. When asked if the underlying stress of growing up under Apartheid subconsciously impacted him in similar ways, Trevor offers a nuanced perspective.

He notes that a child's perception of reality is almost entirely shaped by their primary caregivers. Because he was never separated from his mother and had no alternative lifestyle to compare his childhood against, his daily experience felt completely normal to him. Moreover, within his community, absent or missing fathers were commonplace—many kids had parents who were killed by police, imprisoned, or forced into political exile.

Because he was able to see his father privately and knew his father loved him, Trevor actually felt like one of the lucky ones among his peers. While acknowledging that all experiences leave an imprint, he cautions against labeling every single childhood difficulty as the sole explanation for adult trauma, emphasizing that no human lives a completely friction-free existence.

[16:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=970s) Domestic Violence and the Fragility of Safety

Trevor reflects on his mother's complex and violent relationship with his stepfather, Abel, and how growing up in a home marked by domestic abuse shaped his childhood. He explains that even as an adult—and after discussing it with therapists—domestic violence remains difficult to fully comprehend. For a child, parents are the most powerful figures in existence, akin to "the president" of their world. Seeing a mother subjected to violent harm completely shatters a child's fundamental understanding of safety and reality.

``` "When you're a child, your parents are the most powerful beings... and if you ever have the terrible fortune of seeing your mother being violently harmed, it rocks your fundamental understanding of what the world is." ```

Trevor and host Steven Bartlett compare how childhood environments condition adult relationship triggers:

* **Steven's Experience:** Watching his father sit passively while being berated created a phobia of romantic commitment, feeling like "impending prison time" that led him to reject partners after years of pursuit. * **Trevor's Experience:** Seeing his mother harmed because she allowed someone into her life made him avoid deep intimacy, operating on the instinct to keep people at arm's length so he could never hurt them or be made vulnerable. * **Systemic Failure:** Trevor notes that society often dismisses domestic violence as a "crime of passion." He recalls seeing a femicide awareness campaign in Amsterdam, emphasizing that police neglect of domestic abuse—telling women to "go home and sort it out"—signals to a child that the broader world will not keep them safe either.

---

[23:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1430s) The Phone Call and the "Spidey Sense" of Trauma

Trevor recalls the moment he received a phone call from his younger brother (who was around 14 at the time, driving when he shouldn't have been) informing him that his stepfather had shot his mother point-blank in the head. Trevor was around 24 years old at the time. When he heard the news, he instantly knew who had done it. Growing up around alcoholism and domestic abuse instills a hyper-vigilant "spidey sense" that makes a person intensely predictive of danger.

``` "I'll be the kind of person who will tell you when we should leave a party before a fight breaks out... I can feel energy, not like woo-woo, but I start noticing people are not having as much fun as they were 20 minutes ago." ```

He describes how children in abusive homes develop acute sensitivity to subtle sensory cues to compensate for a parent who seems unable to detect impending danger: * Recognizing which specific car engine sound brought danger to the house. * Knowing whether his stepfather was drunk or sober purely by the sound of his footsteps. * Reading the way a door opened or closed to decide whether to be on high alert.

---

[26:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1593s) Hyper-Empathy as a Gift and a Curse

Trevor discusses the emotional toll of hyper-vigilance, describing it as both a strength and a burden. While this hyper-awareness fuels his talent as a comedian and observer of human behavior, the trade-off is an overactive nervous system that constantly absorbs the emotional states of those around him. In abusive households, children adopt this acute awareness because they feel responsible for protecting a parent who seems oblivious to danger.

To counteract this automatic response in adulthood, Trevor actively practices non-intervention in low-stakes situations: * **The Old Instinct:** Step in immediately to diffuse tension by interrupting, cracking jokes, changing the subject, or creating physical distractions (joking that he felt like "Chris Pratt with those Raptors in *Jurassic Park*"). * **The New Habit:** Pause, take a deep breath, and allow his friends to resolve their own arguments without feeling a compulsion to save everyone. * **Childhood Survival Tactics:** As a kid aged 9 to 12, he would intentionally slam doors, turn up the TV volume, or shift his stepfather's mood to divert tension away from his mother.

---

[31:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1882s) Anticipating Grief and the Reality of Loss

In the chaotic aftermath of the shooting, Trevor rushed to the hospital while trying to process the horrifying news. Time seemed to stand still as he waited for what felt like an inevitable announcement of her death, knowing from everyday reality and movies that a point-blank gunshot to the head is almost universally fatal.

During those agonizing hours in the hospital, Trevor went through the complete psychological process of grieving his mother as if she had already passed away: * He cried processed grief for her death rather than just her injuries. * His mind immediately projected 10 years into the future, mentally stepping into the role of head of the household. * He began planning how to raise his younger brothers, where they would live, and how to break the news to them.

[33:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2020s) "One of My Greatest Gifts": Reframing Loss and the Miracle in the ER

Trevor reflects on how narrowly escaping his mother’s death fundamentally reshaped how he moves through the world. Before the tragedy, like most people, he operated under the implicit assumption that loved ones would always be there. Watching that certainty evaporate in an instant transformed a horrific curse into what he now considers one of his greatest gifts. From that day onward, he has never viewed his mother or his loved ones through a lens of permanence. Every embrace with his mother is held longer and tighter—to the point where she sometimes has to push him off—because he remains deeply aware that human existence is ephemeral. He carries this presence into all his relationships, adopting the mindset summarized by the Arabic phrase *Inshallah* ("God willing"): hoping for another meeting, but never taking the next moment for granted.

Turning to the mechanics of her survival, Trevor details what can only be described as a medical miracle. In movies, a bullet to the head is an instant death sentence, but his mother's trajectory defied science. As doctors prepared him for the absolute worst, X-rays revealed an astounding path: the bullet entered the back of her skull, passed beneath the base of her brain, missed her spinal cord entirely, and struck her cheekbone. That impact deflected the bullet, sending it out through her nose and severing a small piece of tissue on the way out. Because it missed all critical neural structures, surgeons didn't even need to perform brain surgery; they simply stopped the bleeding, closed the wounds, and waited. The attending doctor—a self-described man of science—admitted he hated using the word, but conceded her survival was a genuine miracle. Trevor’s deeply devout mother, who ironically taught him to question everything rather than follow blindly, simply responded, "Of course it's a miracle... my Lord protects me."

- **The Bullet's Trajectory:** Back of skull $\rightarrow$ missed brain base and spinal cord $\rightarrow$ struck cheekbone (deflection) $\rightarrow$ exited through nose. - **Surgical Intervention:** No craniotomy or brain surgery was required; treatment was limited to wound closure and hemorrhage control. - **Relational Shift:** Trevor treats visits and hugs with loved ones as if they could be the very last, actively rejecting the illusion of guaranteed time.

---

[36:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2200s) A Systemic Failing: Why the Stepdad Avoided Prison

The conversation shifts to the infuriating aftermath: why Trevor's stepfather, Abel, never served meaningful prison time despite shooting a woman in the head. Trevor explains that this outcome reflects a widespread systemic failure, prevalent in South Africa and across the globe, regarding domestic violence. In many legal systems, crimes committed by a man against his wife or intimate partner are not treated with the same severity, ferocity, or legal validity as violence inflicted on a stranger. Instead of treating the attempt on her life as a heinous, premeditated crime, the judicial system categorized it leniently—citing factors like it being a "first offense" and questioning whether he posed a future threat. Trevor notes that society routinely minimizes domestic murder as a "tragic love affair" or a situation where "something just went wrong," depriving women of actual justice.

This failure of justice highlights the delicate "domino effect" of human lives. Millimeters dictated whether the bullet killed his mother, and those same millimeters dictated the entire trajectory of Trevor's future. Had his mother died, Trevor would have been forced to assume full parental and financial responsibility for his younger siblings, altering his life path entirely. He candidly acknowledges that he never would have moved to the United States, taken over *The Daily Show*, or explored the world in the way he did. A shift of a fraction of an inch spared his mother's life and allowed his own trajectory to unfold.

- **Judicial Downplaying:** Domestic abuse is frequently rationalized as an isolated emotional breakdown rather than treated as severe violent crime. - **Life Alteration:** A fatal outcome would have kept Trevor in South Africa to raise his family, halting his international comedy career before it began.

---

[38:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2337s) Navigating the Spectrum of Rage and the Paradox of Abusers

Processing the attack triggered an overwhelming cocktail of raw emotions for Trevor: terror, helplessness, shame over feeling unable to protect her, and burning rage. His mind cycled through anger at himself, anger at his mother for staying in the relationship so long, anger at Abel, and anger at a legal system that failed to protect them. He reveals that even as a young child, he intuitively sensed the danger. His grandmother often recalled how a young Trevor warned the family that Abel was not a good man and shouldn't be trusted.

Addressing why victims and families stay trapped in abusive dynamics, Trevor dismantling the misconception that abusers are monsters 100% of the time. The sinister complexity of domestic abuse lies in its non-binary nature. The explosive violence is horrific, but it is often surrounded by periods of immense charisma, humor, and warmth. Trevor spent much of his childhood laughing with Abel and sharing wonderful memories with him, making it extraordinarily difficult as an adult to reconcile how someone who brought such joy and treated him with respect could also inflict the deepest trauma of his life.

- **Childhood Intuition:** Despite being a young boy when Abel entered their lives, Trevor explicitly warned his family that Abel was dangerous. - **The Abuser's Paradox:** Domestic violence is rarely continuous; the extreme danger is masked by long stretches of charm, humor, and genuine bond-building. - **Emotional Cycle:** Processing the trauma required cycling through fear, rage, guilt, grief, and despair during therapy sessions and talks with his mother.

---

[41:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2505s) The Nature of Forgiveness and Escaping the Vicious Cycle

Through extensive therapy and deep conversations with his mother, Trevor worked to process his internal rage. His mother offered a transformative perspective on forgiveness, teaching him that "forgiving doesn't mean forgetting." Forgiveness is not about letting an abuser back into your life or condoning their actions; it is about releasing the emotional grip and burning rage that the person continues to hold over you. Understanding the factors that drove Abel to act does not excuse the act, but it prevents the survivor from burning up inside from unexpressed fury.

This realization became crucial when Trevor studied the generational mechanics of domestic abuse. Research and experts confirm a devastating pattern: young boys who witness their mothers being abused frequently grow up to become abusers themselves, despite abhorring the violence they witnessed as children. Trevor attributes this "vicious cycle" to unresolved, buried anger and helplessness from childhood that, left unprocessed in a safe space, eventually erupts in adulthood.

When asked directly if he has forgiven his stepfather, Trevor answers with honest nuance:

> "In moments, yes... but the levels of my forgiveness won't reach my mom's because she was in love with him... I think I feel sorry for him, I think I've learned to come to terms with it, but like pure forgiveness, I'd be lying to you if I'm like 'yeah, I've forgiven.'... Sometimes I go, 'No, actually, I don't.'"

- **Definition of Forgiveness:** Disentangling oneself from resentment rather than absolving the perpetrator or restoring a relationship. - **The Abusive Cycle:** Unexpressed childhood trauma and helplessness in boys frequently re-emerge as adult domestic aggression. - **Current Stance:** Trevor has achieved empathy and understanding regarding his stepdad's flaws, but stops short of absolute, unconditional forgiveness.

---

[43:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2625s) How Unseen Trauma Leaves Fingerprints

When asked how the fingerprints of this horrific event still manifest in his daily life and career today, Trevor admits that he doesn't fully know—and cautions against neatly attributing current behavior to singular major traumas. The human mind is far more complex; a person might survive an extreme event like a car crash or a shooting and assume all their emotional struggles stem from it, only to discover in therapy that their core anxieties actually stem from subtle, accumulated rejections—like being picked last for a sports team, failing an exam, or being bullied as a child.

While he hesitates to blame his quirks or flaws directly on the shooting, Trevor acknowledges one undeniable, positive fingerprint: it made him profoundly present. When he is with the people he loves, he is fully there, acutely aware of how quickly life can change. Beyond that heightened appreciation, he avoids making neat, psychoanalytic claims about how his past dictates his present.

- **Trauma Misattribution:** Major acute traumas often loom large, but minor, subtle childhood rejections frequently drive everyday insecurities. - **Behavioral Impact:** The primary lasting effect Trevor recognizes in himself is an intense, active presence when spending time with loved ones.

---

[45:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2741s) The Modern Crisis of Young Men: Purposelessness, War, and Isolation

The host references a statement Trevor made regarding his concern for young men today—specifically how isolated, angry, and aimless they have become, and how they have ironically built online communities around that shared anger. Trevor clarifies the distinction between his own upbringing and today's youth: while he felt like an "outsider" (a distinct spatial and social dynamic), he never felt isolated because he was constantly surrounded by family, cousins, and grandmothers. Modern isolation, by contrast, carries a desolate solitude where a young person feels entirely alone in the world.

Trevor attributes much of the modern male crisis to a historical shift in societal "purpose." Historically, society provided rigid, clear frameworks for men. Wars—despite their horrors—acted as massive, powerful engines of societal purpose. Whether a young man was drafted to fight, chose to enlist, or actively organized as an anti-war activist spreading peace, the overarching conflict handed him a clear, defining mission that propelled his identity forward.

In today's era of relative global peace (for those outside active war zones), that forced structure has vanished. Military service is optional, traditional generational trades are no longer passed down, and simple economic paths—where getting a job meant straightforward manual tasks like sweeping, fixing, or collecting—have been replaced by an extraordinarily narrow, hyper-competitive scope of rewarded achievements. With the loss of traditional identity anchors like philosophy, craftsmanship, and simple labor, millions of young men are left adrift without a clear blueprint for what they are supposed to do.

- **Outsider vs. Isolated:** Being an outsider means looking in on a group; isolation is the painful feeling of existing entirely alone without a surrounding community. - **War as a Purpose Engine:** Historical conflicts forcibly provided young men with direction, whether through fighting, surviving, or protesting. - **Economic Purposelessness:** Modern industrialization and digital shifts have narrowed the types of male work celebrated by society, eroding traditional paths to dignity.

---

[51:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3060s) Economic Shifts and the "Provider" Dilemma for Men

Stephen Bartlett opens this portion of the discussion by highlighting structural shifts in the economy and education system. More women are graduating with college degrees and ascending into high-level professional roles. While this is a crucial achievement for equality, it simultaneously changes the traditional job landscape for men. Quoting a guest from his podcast, Stephen explains that society still maintains a persistent cultural expectation for men to act as the primary provider. However, the shifting economic dynamic makes fulfilling that traditional expectation significantly more difficult.

This mismatch creates a structural problem in modern dating. Stephen brings up the concept of the "short man problem" or "tall girl problem"—referring to data showing that many women prefer to date "up and to the right" in terms of status and income. However, because fewer men occupy those top-tier economic positions than in previous generations, the basic math no longer adds up.

- Survey data cited by Stephen suggests that **70% to 80%** of women still prefer a husband who acts as a provider. - Recent statistics on dating, age of virginity loss, and sexual activity indicate a growing divide: the top **10%** of men attract a disproportionate share of romantic interest, leaving up to **50%** feeling disenfranchised by modern social and economic shifts.

---

[52:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3150s) The Fall of the Middle Class and "The Domino Effect"

Trevor Noah expands on Stephen's observation by framing these social strains within a broader macroeconomic context. He views current societal issues as a series of falling dominoes, starting with the erosion of the middle class. Trevor points out that the middle class was never a naturally occurring economic state, but rather a deliberate creation of mid-20th-century government policies. As governments stopped actively propping up the middle class, a massive wealth gap emerged.

This structural decline triggered a cascading series of consequences: mega-corporations tax-avoiding, wage stagnation, predatory credit cycles that trap individuals in perpetual debt, and political polarization accelerated by social media algorithms. Employers continually seek to extract more labor from fewer workers or replace traditional roles altogether. According to Trevor, the feeling of isolation and romantic frustration experienced by young men today is not an isolated phenomenon, but rather the downstream effect of these larger systemic failures.

---

[05:04:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=18240s) Purpose, Community, and "The Third Thing"

Trevor presents an anecdotal yet insightful perspective on how men and women adapt differently to economic and social shifts. Historically, because women were often excluded from the formal workplace, they were forced to build purpose within community spaces, home life, and social groups—such as book clubs, knitting circles, or fitness routines. When career opportunities opened up for women, they integrated into structured office environments while retaining these established social survival skills.

Men, on the other hand, rarely practiced the art of simply existing together without an external task. Trevor highlights a key difference in male relationships: men usually require a "third thing" to interact—a shared activity like sports, fishing, or video games—rather than connecting directly over their internal emotional lives.

> "Guys always need the third thing... It's like, 'Hey, what are you doing on Saturday? You want to go fishing?' It's like, why do we need the fishing? Why can't we just sit like this and be like, 'Hey, what's happening in your heart, Stephen?'"

Trevor contrasts this with cultural practices he observed in developing nations, such as Trinidad, where the concept of **"liming"** refers specifically to gathering with friends to sit, hang out, and share time without any transactional goal or organized activity.

---

[57:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3425s) The Erasure of Third Places and Male Isolation

The decline of non-commercial social environments—traditionally known as "third places"—has further compounded male isolation. Trevor recalls how, during his youth, teenagers would hang out at shopping malls or local plazas without needing money. Today, almost every public space has been privatized or transactionalized, making hanging out contingent on spending power.

- Hanging out through video games requires an expensive console and subscriptions like *Fortnite*. - Social outings like going to the movies or using rideshare services like Uber have grown increasingly expensive.

As a result, an entire generation of young men who lack discretionary income are priced out of real-world socialization. They miss out on practicing essential skills for emotional connection and genuine human bonding.

---

[58:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3489s) Emotional Vulnerability and Finding Community Online

Stephen reflects on his upbringing, noting that his father never modeled emotional connection or open conversation with other men, leaving him without a reference point for those skills. Trevor agrees, acknowledging that men who attempt to express vulnerability are frequently penalized or ridiculed by their peers. Showing emotional pain—such as distress over a breakup—often invites mockery or aggression, teaching young men that vulnerability is unsafe.

Despite the toxicity that can exist online, Trevor argues that digital platforms offer a unique solution through **anonymity**:

- **Online Gaming:** During the COVID-19 pandemic, Trevor made a close friend while playing *Call of Duty: Warzone*. What began as tactical gaming banter eventually evolved into deep personal conversations about family, career struggles, and life. - **Reddit Communities:** Trevor praises forums like Reddit, where men can anonymously share struggles with mental health, loneliness, or family trauma, and find empathetic, supportive communities of peers experiencing the exact same issues.

While online spaces are not a complete substitute for in-person community, they currently provide an essential safety valve for men who lack secure environments to express their emotions in daily life.

---

[01:03:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3810s) Belonging, Isolation, and Growing Up Different

The conversation turns to the fundamental human need for belonging. Stephen shares his personal experience of growing up as part of the only Black, low-income family in his hometown—a dynamic that made him feel permanently out of place until he left at age 18. When Trevor asks Stephen where he feels he belongs most today, Stephen admits that he feels most at ease when he is completely alone or spending time with his brothers during Christmas, as they shared the experience of never quite fitting in anywhere.

Trevor reflects on his own journey as a mixed-race child born under South African Apartheid. He explains that he never found a single physical place or city where he felt a complete sense of belonging. Instead, he has learned to look for temporary moments and specific interactions where he feels warm, safe, and comfortable.

[01:05:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3927s) The Practical Path to Connection and Belonging

Trevor shares a crucial lesson on how to combat loneliness and build genuine human connection. Often, people exacerbate their isolation by trying to connect purely based on themselves—approaching strangers directly with an awkward "I'm me, do I belong to you?" dynamic that pushes people away. Instead, Trevor advises shifting focus toward shared activities and passions—whether running, playing sports, reading, or fishing. Engaging in something you love naturally creates a common ground where belonging happens organically through shared experience rather than forced social interaction.

[01:06:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3990s) How Relationships and Friendships Evolve Over Time

Steven brings up demographic graphs showing how the people we spend time with drastically shift as we age, noting how seeing the sharp decline in time spent with friends personally changed his life by forcing him to actively maintain those bonds. Reflecting on his transition from South Africa to the United States, Trevor notes that while he loved solitude as a child, he always cherished connecting with others. He defines a great friend as someone who sees a positive part of you that you wish to cultivate and continuously encourages it, contrasting this with how negative figures—like a childhood bully—can trap you in a painful past self.

* **Core Definition of Friendship:** Great friends hold you in a positive light and encourage the person you wish to become, whereas bad dynamics hold you captive to your past or worst moments. * **On "Bad Friends":** Trevor believes people aren't inherently "bad friends" globally; rather, it is a "bad friendship" for you if you cannot be your authentic self or if you are forced to perform for their idea of you.

[01:09:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4192s) The Influence of Environment and Core Friendships

Recalling a story from when he was 19, Trevor describes spending his post-high school days hanging out in the hood, doing nothing and trying to hustle. However, when his cousin went to university, Trevor began spending his days sitting around the campus. Upon returning home, his mother was beaming. Though Trevor clarified he wasn't enrolled, his mother imparted a profound piece of wisdom: "You cannot be around people who are moving and not wish to move." She emphasized that the people around you inevitably shape how you see yourself and your aspirations.

- **The Power of Proximity:** Being surrounded by people striving for more naturally pushes you to elevate your own life. - **Trevor’s Core Group:** Today, Trevor maintains a tight-knit core group of friends whose journeys remain intertwined with his. They attend his comedy shows, hang out backstage at *The Daily Show*, and accompany him to events like the Grammys, continually challenging and encouraging one another.

[01:12:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4339s) Redefining Success and Driven by Puzzles, Not "Toxic Fuel"

Addressing Steven's observation of his packed schedule—traveling across Portugal, Seattle, Las Vegas, and New York in four days—Trevor rejects the notion that he is driven by "toxic fuel" or first-generation immigrant shame. While years ago his schedule was purely work-driven, today his choices are filtered through friendship and community first. He visited Portugal to see friends, took a tech passion project with Microsoft in Seattle to challenge his mind, worked in Vegas, and chose to do the interview in New York specifically because his friends live there.

> "Friendships are like little piggy banks. You're putting money in and they're putting money in yours, and every now and again, you get to break them open and enjoy what's inside. That's literally my success now."

* **The Problem-Solving Drive:** Trevor views his career through the lens of intellectual curiosity. He moved to the U.S. not for money or fame, but because hosting *The Daily Show* as an outsider seemed like an impossible puzzle to solve.

[01:16:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4560s) The Heavy Price of Fame and the Loss of Anonymity

Trevor describes fame as an unavoidable "curse" of his profession rather than a sought-after reward. He highlights the often-overlooked beauty and tranquility of anonymity—the freedom to meet a stranger and write your story fresh from that moment onward without pre-existing assumptions. Once you are famous, your ability to rewrite your narrative is stripped away, and public perceptions demand that you are constantly "owned by the world."

* **Loss of Everyday Freedom:** Simple moments like having an animated conversation over lunch with a partner become risky, as a single out-of-context photo can create false rumors of a fight. * **Friendship Strain:** Some non-famous friends hesitate to go out with him in public to avoid being photographed, disturbed, or scrutinized by onlookers. * **The Isolation of Celebrity:** Trevor points out that famous people rarely die in public or among friends; they frequently die alone in isolated spaces like hotel rooms or bathtubs, illustrating how intense public exposure often breeds profound, tragic solitude.

[01:20:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4826s) The Theme Park Epiphany: Why Friction Adds Value to Life

Trevor reflects on his relationship with fame and success, emphasizing that he is extremely careful not to play the victim. He acknowledges that while every gift has its curse, many of the perks that came with his position were things he neither wanted nor needed. For instance, he genuinely enjoys standard human experiences, like waiting for a table at a restaurant. He illustrates this mindset through an anecdote about visiting a theme park with his friends after taking over as the host of *The Daily Show*.

The park's management recognized him and offered an exclusive tour, allowing Trevor and his group to skip every line and ride as much as they wanted. At first, Trevor thought, "This is it! *The Daily Show* has paid off finally! All the death threats are worth it!" However, the experience quickly spiraled into a manic spree. They completed an 8-to-10-hour park circuit in just 3 hours, riding everything multiple times. Instead of feeling thrilled, they ended up with headaches, dehydration, and a strange sense of depression on the ride home. Analyzing what went wrong, they realized their enjoyment of theme parks had never been strictly about the roller coasters—it was about being forced to stand in line for an hour with friends, talking, building anticipation, and sharing the experience.

$$\text{Friction} + \text{Shared Effort} = \text{Deeper Satisfaction}$$

Host Steven Bartlett connects this to a study involving an online community forum. When one group was granted instant access, they found the forum boring; when another group had to pass a rigorous process to gain entry, they rated the exact same forum as highly valuable. This phenomenon highlights how friction and anticipation create gratitude and meaning, whereas playing "life on easy mode" strips away genuine connection.

* Trevor notes that he enjoys performing in a small comedy club with 70 people more than performing in a massive arena with 12,000 people. * Good theme parks intentionally design line queues to build anticipation through ambient sound, such as hearing other riders scream.

---

[01:25:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5107s) Taking Over The Daily Show and Facing Backlash

Stepping into Jon Stewart's shoes at *The Daily Show* proved to be an immensely difficult transition. Trevor describes the hosting gig not merely as a television job, but as an established "post"—Jon Stewart had become a generational voice and "the most trusted man in America." When Trevor took over, the immediate public reaction was brutally negative, marked by harsh online hate, media criticism, and even death threats.

Trevor approaches this period with curiosity rather than bitterness, observing how people react defensively to major change. While some of the hostility was tied to his background and race, much of it came from liberal viewers who felt grieving and displaced by Stewart's departure. Trevor realized that he had become a lightning rod—a visual proxy for a unwanted disruption in their daily comfort. Coming from South Africa gave him a unique perspective on handling animosity, jokingly remarking that he already knew "top-quality racism," which helped him navigate the toxic commentary in the U.S.

* Ratings dipped early in Trevor's tenure; stats cited show the program lost approximately 700,000 viewers per night, down 37% by its 100th episode before later transforming into a digital powerhouse with billions of impressions. * Trevor realized a core life philosophy during this crisis: "You genuinely cannot choose what's going to happen to you, but you almost definitely can choose who you're going to handle it with."

---

[01:29:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5379s) The Worst Day in the Trenches and Jon Stewart's Advice

During the absolute lowest point of the early backlash, the pressure almost drove Trevor to step down. Following an outrage cycle sparked by a joke posted on the show's Twitter account, news articles questioned whether Trevor was fit to host. Feeling guilty that his presence was burdening the entire team, Trevor turned to head writer Dan Amira and confessed that he was considering quitting so everyone else could get back to a normal life.

Dan Amira, known for his exceptionally dry sense of humor, looked at him and deadpanned, "But if you leave, this thing might get shut down—and then I don't get lunch anymore." Surprised by the response, Trevor listened as Dan logically broken down the situation: the critics didn't like Trevor, and leaving wouldn't make them suddenly like him either. Since staying or leaving changed nothing about the critics' opinion, Dan urged Trevor to stay simply because the team loved working with him.

Jon Stewart provided a similar perspective during a private moment in his office before handing over the show. Stewart called Trevor in and showed him a glowing, effusive article explaining why Jon Stewart was indispensable to America and could never leave. Then, Stewart pulled up an article from three years earlier by the exact same journalist titled "Why Jon Stewart Needs to Leave *The Daily Show*." Stewart pointed out that when he took over from previous host Craig Kilborn, critics claimed Stewart would ruin the show, too.

* Trevor affectionately refers to Jon Stewart as his "Jewish Yoda" for guiding him through the unwritten rules of late-night television. * Dan Amira remains the head writer at *The Daily Show*, a testament to the core team's long-standing solidarity.

[01:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5700s) Understanding ADHD Depression and the Myth of the "Self-Made" Individual

Trevor Noah revisits the early, grueling days of taking over *The Daily Show*, describing how he relied on his team to endure what felt like a slow, boring slog filled with both hilarious and painful moments. Addressing Stephen Bartlett's question about whether he suffered from depression during those lonely off-screen hours, Trevor reveals a crucial personal insight: he only recently realized that the depression he experienced throughout his adult life was actually "ADHD depression" rather than clinical depression. For years, he was confused by his mental health struggles because he did not feel perpetually depressed. He later learned that sporadic depressive episodes can be a direct byproduct of untreated, undiagnosed ADHD.

``` "I didn't realize at the time that the depression that I was suffering from was ADHD depression... I didn't know that ADHD can do that to you... as a byproduct of untreated ADHD." ```

Trevor emphasizes that the primary reason he survived those brutal early months in New York was that he was never truly alone. His close collaborator, David Kibuuka, moved with him from South Africa, where they had originally started doing comedy nights together. Every single night—whether in the blistering summer heat or freezing winter cold—they walked out of the studio together back to their shared apartment. Returning home around 8:00 or 9:00 p.m., they would open their notebooks and work until midnight analyzing what went well and what could be improved, only to wake up at 7:00 a.m. to repeat the process. They were later joined by Joseph Opio, a talented writer from Uganda who had hosted a Ugandan version of *The Daily Show*. Trevor firmly believes that if he had been going home alone, he would never have survived the pressure, nor would he even have taken the gig in the first place.

He passionately dismantles the modern culture of glorifying perseverance as a purely individualistic pursuit. He criticizes successful individuals who erase the hugs, encouragements, and practical support they received, telling self-aggrandizing stories of looking in the mirror to push themselves. To Trevor, concepts like the "self-made billionaire" are absurd illusions: no one builds products, drives the delivery trucks, manages stores, handles investments, and generates every idea entirely by themselves. He uses the analogy of Mount Everest mountaineers who claim sole credit for ascents while completely ignoring the Sherpas who carry the weight and literally keep them alive. Recognizing that no achievement happens in isolation does not diminish one's success; rather, it highlights the essential truth that human beings inherently need each other to thrive.

- **Key Collaborators:** David Kibuuka (longtime South African comedy partner) and Joseph Opio (writer and former host of Uganda's satirical news show). - **Daily Grind Routine:** Arrive at the office by 7:00 or 8:00 a.m., finish taping by 8:00 or 9:00 p.m., and debrief/write at home until midnight. - **Academic Study Insight:** Trevor notes that growing up, students who studied with partners consistently achieved better marks—a simple real-world proof of collaboration over isolation.

---

[01:41:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6074s) Why Trevor Walked Away from The Daily Show

When asked why he chose to step down from *The Daily Show* at the absolute peak of its success—after winning major awards, generating billions of digital views, and transforming the franchise into an online powerhouse—Trevor explains simply that "it was time." Coming from South Africa, his perspective on television differs sharply from the American model. In South African and British television culture, shows naturally come to an end rather than running endlessly for 10 or 20 seasons. He draws a comparison to Jerry Seinfeld walking away from *Seinfeld* at its peak despite the network offering astronomical sums to continue, simply because the artistic cycle had naturally concluded.

``` "I took for granted that the pandemic was a moment where many people were forced to be at home... I realized I had made my life about work and I had made everything else secondary." ```

The COVID-19 pandemic served as a major catalyst for his decision. While millions of people were forced to pause, Trevor kept producing the show from home under intense conditions. Without a full crew, he, David Kibuuka, and executive producer David Meyer physically shot the show using iPhones inside their apartment building. Shielded by constant labor, Trevor initially avoided the existential panic of the pandemic, but he eventually realized a harsh truth: he had structured his entire existence around work. Relationships, travel, and personal milestones were treated as secondary events to be scheduled only if work allowed. Looking back after eight total years at *The Daily Show* (one as a contributor under Jon Stewart and seven as host), he realized he could easily do the job forever, but doing so would prevent him from exploring what else life had to offer.

Addressing the cognitive trap of loss aversion—where people stay in high-status roles out of fear—Trevor references psychologist Daniel Kahneman's research showing that the psychological pain of losing something is far greater than the pleasure of gaining an equivalent reward. Although Trevor was not miserable at the show, the isolation of the pandemic forced him to confront the cliché that "you don't know what you've got till it's gone." He realized that what people missed during lockdown was not consumer goods or movies, but human connection. He asked himself whether he cared more about the ratings of a television show or the quality of his friendships and family life. Because *The Daily Show* was an all-consuming, 24/7 commitment requiring constant media consumption across the political spectrum (from *The Guardian* and the BBC to *Breitbart* and *The Telegraph*), he realized he had to let go of the old role to grab onto something new.

- **Total Tenure at *The Daily Show*:** 8 years total (1 year as a contributor under Jon Stewart, 7 years as host). - **Pandemic Setup:** Produced the home-edition show using basic iPhones with a bare-bones team of just three people. - **Jon Stewart Parallel:** Trevor notes with humor that Jon Stewart eventually returned to host *The Daily Show* on a weekly basis, knowing firsthand how all-consuming a daily schedule is. - **Media Intake Demands:** To properly host the show, Trevor had to consume news constantly across all political spectrums, reading outlets ranging from *The Economist* to conservative sites like *Breitbart*.

[01:49:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6587s) Escaping the News Cycle and Taking a Mental Break

Trevor describes the overwhelming intensity of monitoring global news constantly—consuming updates from the *Times of India*, *Al Jazeera*, analysis from economists, and endless breaking stories while barely reading a single fiction book for an entire year. The sheer volume of incoming information creates immense strain on the brain, particularly for someone who is hyper-aware and empathetic.

Reflecting on this period, Trevor offers a crucial piece of advice: give yourself a break from the news. He argues that the cultural belief that people must constantly stay updated on real-time news is a complete illusion. Checking the news just once a week leaves a person just as informed as someone following it daily. Daily news consumers get caught in a repetitive cycle of guessing and pontificating over developing stories, whereas waiting allows events the time needed to breathe and settle into actual, factual reports.

[01:51:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6677s) Trevor's Therapy Journey and Physical Metaphors

Trevor first started going to therapy around 2014 or 2015. His decision to attend was driven by a desire to understand himself on a deeper level through a skilled professional, drawing a direct parallel to physical therapy. He notes that just as physical therapy reveals hidden physical restrictions—showing how a person's neck, back, or knees have settled into restricted movement over time—mental therapy exposes behavioral patterns and automatic emotional reactions that limit a person's true self.

When Trevor told people he was starting therapy, the immediate reaction from friends and acquaintances was to ask, "Why, what's wrong?" He recalls an interview with a conservative, upper-class British journalist who asked why he still went to therapy. When Trevor suggested that everyone could benefit from it, the journalist respectfully disagreed, stating that society's current "therapizing" is unnecessary and that people should simply "take it and move on"—a response Trevor calls "the most British thing I've ever heard in my life."

- **Physical Therapy Analogy:** Physical therapy shows how people adapt to restricted movement in their neck, back, or breathing without realizing it, which mimics how people adapt to restrictive mental patterns. - **Societal Stigma:** The formal label "therapy" carries a heavy stigma because people falsely associate it with extreme mental breakdowns or being fundamentally "broken."

[01:55:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6903s) Reframing Therapy Across Cultures

Trevor emphasizes that the core practice of therapy—seeking guidance, sharing burdens, and processing emotions—is universal and widely accepted when unburdened by modern medical labels. People practice informal therapy every day when commiserating with friends or confiding in a partner at the end of a long day. Furthermore, long before modern psychology existed, various global cultures, particularly communities of color, maintained robust therapeutic traditions.

In many African cultures, individuals routinely take their personal, marital, or family disputes to community elders. These elders draw upon generations of shared knowledge and a deep, lifelong familiarity with the individual to offer wisdom. Similarly, people find therapeutic outlets in spiritual advisors, barbers, and bartenders. Rebranding therapy as simply "speaking with a wise elder" eliminates the fear of being seen as "broken" and reframes the process as simply understanding one's cracks.

> "I don't think it's about saying that we're broken. It's just about like understanding our cracks."

[01:57:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7041s) Learning to Feel vs. Learning to Think

For Trevor, the greatest breakthrough in therapy was shifting from analyzing his life to actually *feeling* it. He explains that he has always excelled at intellectually deconstructing his reactions and breakdowns with analytical precision. He could easily articulate *why* a situation triggered a specific response, but he spent years limiting his engagement with the raw emotions underlying those thoughts.

Through therapy, Trevor learned to sit with and acknowledge primary emotions—such as feeling sad, mad, tired, resentful, hopeless, or melancholic—rather than immediately converting them into intellectual explanations. He points out that society conditions men to avoid emotional vulnerability at all costs. Instead of admitting to a friend, "Hey man, that hurt me," men frequently default to destructive outlets like anger, physical violence, excessive drinking, gambling, or pornography because direct vulnerability feels terrifying.

[01:59:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7196s) Adult ADHD Diagnosis and Misconceptions

Trevor was officially diagnosed with ADHD approximately two to four years prior to the interview after a friend was diagnosed and described symptoms that deeply resonated with him. This realization prompted Trevor to recall an incident from his childhood in South Africa: his school had requested a psychiatric evaluation due to his hyperactive behavior. The psychiatrist diagnosed young Trevor with ADHD (then referred to as hyperactivity) and recommended specific dietary changes and treatment, but his mother simply responded, "We'll pray for him, let's keep it moving."

As an adult, Trevor underwent a thorough, multimodal clinical evaluation rather than relying on quick online quizzes. He warns against the modern trend—fueled by social media platforms like TikTok—of flattening psychological terms into casual buzzwords. Forgetting keys or having a short attention span does not automatically mean someone has ADHD. He stresses that ADHD manifests differently in every individual—varying between inattentive and hyperactive types, as well as presenting differently across genders and coping mechanisms.

- **Childhood Diagnosis:** Diagnosed as a child under the term "hyperactivity," though his mother chose to rely on prayer rather than medical treatment due to a lack of awareness at the time. - **Testing Process:** Completed a rigorous, multi-visit clinical assessment rather than relying on internet self-assessments. - **Social Media Trend:** Cautions against the oversimplification of ADHD on platforms like TikTok, noting that symptoms and presentation vary widely across individuals.

[02:02:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7379s) The Link Between ADHD and Depression

Trevor breaks down the intricate connection between his ADHD and his bouts of depression. A fundamental struggle of his ADHD is the inability to regulate his focus properly—either becoming intensely hyperfocused on an irrelevant distraction or completely unable to direct attention where it needs to go. He illustrates this with an example: while having a conversation, his brain might get completely hijacked by the sound of a revving car engine outside, forcing him to reconstruct the conversation using only the last three words he heard.

This inability to control focus extends to internal thought patterns. Trevor explains that his brain would get trapped in recurring loops of negative thoughts or feelings of meaninglessness. He compares his perspective on life to a camera lens: when the zoom mechanism gets stuck either too far in or too far out, you lose clarity on the subject in front of you. When his mind became hyperfocused on cyclical, unproductive thoughts without the ability to zoom out or redirect focus, it directly triggered periods of deep depression.

[02:05:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7512s) The Mechanics of ADHD Rumination and Cognitive Loops

Trevor details the precise cognitive mechanics of how ADHD triggers existential depression through recursive mental loops. When hit with hyperfocus, his mind picks up a single thought—such as the relentless routine of workdays, weekends, and aging—and loops it indefinitely until the entire concept of existence feels fundamentally pointlessness. Rather than seeing a single daily activity in isolation, the ADHD pattern recognition zooms out completely, turning the mundane passage of time into a terrifying trajectory ending in death at ninety.

Unlike hyperfocus applied to constructive domains like industrial design or artificial intelligence—where he spends months devouring every book, interview, and piece of content available—hyperfocusing on abstract existential dread or sadness traps the mind in a feedback loop of meaningless input. This dynamic is exacerbated by high fame, where the volume of uninterpretable, external feedback overload makes breaking free from negative thought cycles exceptionally difficult.

- Hyperfocus applied to subjects like industrial design or AI yields intense, rapid mastery over three-month periods before suddenly evaporating. - Pattern recognition skills make individuals great comedians, but those same pattern-spotting abilities can highlight bleak, existential absurdities in everyday life. - Trevor treats his ADHD without daily medication after finding that pharmaceuticals dulled the erratic, unfocused spark necessary for stand-up comedy.

---

[02:08:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7703s) Zooming In and Grounding Techniques for Existential Dread

To break out of destructive mental spirals, Trevor applies mindfulness techniques based on shifting perspective and conscious observation. By recognizing that he is "the observer of thoughts" rather than the thoughts themselves, he counteracts macro-level nihilism by radically zooming in on the immediate micro-moment. A casual interaction, a warm hug from a friend, or the exact flavor profile on the taste buds during a meal becomes the absolute center of meaning.

When anxiety or depressive loops take hold, he relies on sensory grounding drills taught in cognitive therapies. Simply walking down a street and narrating basic physical realities out loud forces the brain out of abstract processing and back into presence. Though naming mundane objects feels trivial initially, the simple act disrupts the hyperfocus loop and shifts emotional states by the end of the walk.

- Simple sensory drill: Verbally naming physical objects while walking (e.g., "That is a red door, that is a green roof, that is a pigeon on the gutter"). - Grounding perspective shift: Micro-focusing on immediate sensory experiences restores a sense of profound meaning when macro-existential views feel empty.

---

[02:09:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7783s) The Physical Check-In and the "Last Day" Paradigm

When asked if he ever felt hopeless during severe depressive spirals, Trevor outlines a pragmatic, physiological checklist he runs through before allowing himself to pontificate on life's meaning. Oftentimes, intense nihilism is driven by basic physical neglect like fatigue or hunger. Before accepting any existential crisis as real, he systematically audits four essential physical needs to determine whether the state is emotional or purely biological.

``` +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | TREVOR'S BASIC NEEDS CHECKLIST | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ | [ ] Slept? (Sufficient sleep and recovery) | | [ ] Eaten Well? (Nutritious food) | | [ ] Moved Body? (Physical exercise or movement) | | [ ] Breathed? (Dedicated time for conscious breathing) | +--------------------------------------------------------------+ ```

When feeling stuck or hopeless, Trevor runs a hypothetical thought experiment: "If life were ending tomorrow, what would I do today?" This mental frame unlocks an irreverent, bold freedom—inspiring him to tell the risky joke on stage, throw an uninhibited party, or act with utter candor. He notes that these rebellious impulses ("screw-you choices") usually highlight the precise boundaries, desires, or personal needs a person is ignoring in their actual life, serving as an operational map toward living authentically.

"I think of all the things that I would do with like giant middle fingers on my way out, and the smile that it brings to my face... every time it makes me realize that that's all I should be trying to do."

---

[02:14:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8047s) Reuniting with His Biological Father and Lessons on Friendship

At around 24 or 25 years old, Trevor reconnected with his biological father after years of separation. The decision was driven by crucial advice from his mother, Patricia, who told him not to take for granted the answers a parent holds that a child might not even realize they need. Entering the reunion with uncertainty rather than fear, Trevor wrestled with whether his father truly "chose" him, despite knowing the underlying love existed. Reconnecting allowed him to spot subtle, inherited traits in himself that he never knew originated from another person.

The most profound lesson Trevor learned from his father came not from spoken instruction, but from observation. Watching his father maintain deep, active friendships into old age demonstrated the immense value of sustaining a community over a lifetime. While society heavily emphasizes familial and romantic obligations, Trevor views true friendship as unique because it operates entirely on uncoerced choice without transactional expectations.

- Age at reunion: Reconnected with his biological father around age 24 or 25. - Key advice from Patricia Noah: "Don't take for granted the answers a person can hold of you that you may not even know you needed for yourself." - Observation on relationships: Friendships are uniquely valuable because, unlike romantic or familial bonds, they rely purely on voluntary choice without transactional dependencies.

---

[02:18:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8307s) Last Words to Patricia Noah and Simple Moments

Transitioning to the topic of his mother, Patricia Noah, host Steven Bartlett references her extraordinary resilience and asks Trevor what he would say if he had a final 60-second phone call with her. Trevor answers without hesitation that his message would simply be a barrage of love and gratitude: "I love you, thank you, thank you, thank you."

Trevor feels fortunate that he leaves nothing unsaid with his mother in daily life, avoiding the regret of unspoken emotions. Today, their relationship is anchored in mundane, agenda-free moments—such as driving around together just to buy new chickens for her small flock, sharing conversations, and enjoying simple presence without any overarching objective.

"I love you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you... genuinely that's pretty much it because I'm really lucky that I've said and I continue to try to say most of what I should to my mom."

Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough based on the transcript provided:

[02:20:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8426s) Honoring His Mother's Legacy and Dealing with Flawed Parents

Trevor reflects on his desire to simply exist in his mother's presence—like joining her in the garden while she works, listening, talking, and sharing. If he were on a call with her in her final moments, his message would be simple and pure: "thank you, thank you, I love you so much." He notes that experiencing her survival after being shot gave him a rare perspective on life early on. While his mother is remarkable and credits her endurance to the grace of God, Trevor emphasizes that part of what makes her so exceptional is that she is a flawed human being. She made mistakes and inflicted emotional wounds on him that he now has to navigate in adulthood.

He challenges the binary societal view that parents are either strictly "great" or "terrible." In reality, a parent can be wonderful at some things and terrible at others; if they loved you, they were simply doing their best within their limitations. His ultimate goal is to honor her wish for him and his brothers to "be better than the last" and continue improving upon the family legacy.

- **Key concept:** Rejecting the binary view of parenting—parents can be both loving and flawed, doing their best while still causing wounds that require healing.

---

[02:22:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8538s) Thoughts on Fatherhood and Raising Children

When asked about his perspectives on becoming a father, Trevor reveals that he constantly goes back and forth on the idea. At times, looking at the state of the planet makes him hesitate, though he quickly counters that the world has likely been a tough place for every generation throughout human history. He also wrestles with whether he would want to pass down ADHD to a child and how challenging that might be for them, though he considers that it could also turn out great.

Above all, Trevor believes the two most essential things a parent can give a child are the feelings of **being chosen** and **being considered**. He critiques the widespread parental attitude that children owe their parents for bringing them into existence, arguing instead that parents owe their children thoughtful consideration because the children had no say in the matter. Drawing a parallel to his experience hosting *The Daily Show*, Trevor approaches fatherhood with realistic expectations: if he expects it to be easy and entirely rewarding, he will hate the difficult moments; but if he accepts from the start that it will be tough, he will enjoy the journey much more.

- **Two core elements of parenting:** Ensuring a child feels *chosen* and *considered*. - **Philosophical stance:** Children do not owe their parents for being brought into the world; parents bear the responsibility to consider their children's needs deeply.

---

[02:23:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8639s) Relationships, Romance, and His New Book

Trevor acknowledges that romance didn't fit into his life during his high-intensity years hosting *The Daily Show*, when he was working constantly and fighting to make the show a success. That lack of space for personal relationships was the price he paid for his career focus. However, romance fits into his life much better now. As he has grown comfortable with the idea that he could remain single forever—relying on strong friendships and community for connection—he has actually become much better suited for a romantic relationship. He now views a partnership as something he can bring value to, rather than an entity expected to fulfill all his needs.

The conversation turns to Trevor's books, particularly his memoir *Born a Crime* and his newer illustrated book, *Into the Uncut Grass*. The host praises *Into the Uncut Grass* as a profoundly wise, beautiful, and silly story suited both for children and adults, drawing comparisons to classics like *The Little Prince* and *The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse*. Trevor explains that the book was designed to help readers rediscover their childlike curiosity, imagination, and connection to themselves before the hurts of life took hold.

- **Book Title:** *Into the Uncut Grass* (published October 8th). - **Inspirational parallels:** *The Little Prince* and *The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse*. - **Core themes:** Rediscovering childlike wonder, imagination, healing before trauma, and deep human connection.

---

[02:26:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8802s) Overcoming Life's Lowest Point and the Japanese Art of Kintsugi

Responding to a tradition where the previous guest leaves a question for the next, Trevor addresses what he considers the lowest point of his life: the day his mother was shot. He resists the notion that he has completely "overcome" it, stating that he doesn't know if anyone ever truly overcomes deep trauma or what that even means in practice. Instead of viewing healing as a finished destination, he gives himself grace and accepts that he is a work in progress.

To illustrate his perspective, Trevor shares an art form he learned about during a trip to Japan called **Kintsugi**—the practice of repairing broken pottery using gold lacquer. Rather than hiding the fractures, artisans highlight them with golden joinery, creating a piece that is more beautiful precisely because it was broken. Trevor views himself as a piece of ceramic that has been cracked many times. Through therapy, love, and good people, he has filled those cracks with gold, wearing his scars with pride rather than trying to pretend he was never hurt.

- **Art form:** *Kintsugi* (Japanese art of mending broken ceramics with gold lacquer). - **Perspective on healing:** Healing isn't about resetting to a state of original perfection; it's about wearing your cracks and experiences with a new form of pride and beauty.

---

[02:30:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9040s) The Eraser Test vs. The Pencil Test

The host brings up Mo Gawdat's "Eraser Test"—the theoretical question of whether someone would push a button to erase their greatest life traumas if given the chance. Contrary to many who claim they wouldn't press it because their pain made them who they are, Trevor answers decisively: "Yes, I would." He offers a passionate critique of society's tendency to valorize trauma by insisting that "everything happens for a reason."

Trevor argues that while some people manage to grow from hardship, countless others are simply broken by trauma, carry unnecessary wounds, or inflict harm on others as a result. He believes nobody should feel obligated to be grateful for horrific experiences like childhood abuse, accidents, or systemic oppression. He asserts that he would gladly push the button to erase his mother being shot, his struggles with ADHD, and the horrors of Apartheid in South Africa. Instead of an Eraser Test, Trevor proposes a **"Pencil Test"** or **"Pen Test"**—a mindset focused not on clinging to past trauma for identity, but on deciding what new story you choose to write moving forward.

- **Philosophical stance:** Trauma and tribulations do not define a person; surviving them is commendable, but the pain itself shouldn't be celebrated or rationalized as necessary. - **Events he would erase:** His mother being shot, his ADHD, and the history of Apartheid. - **The "Pencil/Pen Test":** Reframing life choices around the question: "What story do you choose to write on the other side of what happened to you?" - **Podcast plug:** *What Now? with Trevor Noah* (available on Spotify).

Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of the transcript section.

[02:35:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9333s) Mutual Respect and Podcasting Philosophies

Steven Bartlett opens with a heartfelt tribute to Trevor Noah, noting that his team, family, brothers, and sister are all tremendous fans of his. He praises Trevor's rare blend of wit, humility, vulnerability, and undeniable authenticity. Steven encourages the audience to check out Trevor’s podcast, *What Now?*, placing it high on the list of recommendations. Trevor responds with warm gratitude, declaring that Steven has created "easily one of the best ever" podcasts with *The Diary Of A CEO*. Trevor offers a clever contrast between their two shows: whenever people want to watch a polished, "professional podcast," they should head to *The Diary Of A CEO*, but if they want to "explore my mind," they should tune into *What Now?*.

Steven admits he felt unusually nervous before the interview due to the immense respect he holds for Trevor. Trevor receives the compliment with warmth, then turns his attention back to Steven personally with a piece of gentle advice regarding solitude and connection.

- **Podcast referenced:** *What Now? with Trevor Noah* - Steven notes his siblings (sister and brothers) are huge fans of Trevor. - Trevor jokingly contrasts *The Diary Of A CEO* (professionalism) with *What Now?* (exploring his mind).

[02:36:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9398s) The Importance of Belonging and Avoiding Negative Communities

Trevor offers Steven a poignant piece of life advice, urging him not to spend so much time alone. While isolation can feel like a comfortable default state, Trevor warns that staying there prevents a person from experiencing what lies on the other side. Finding true belonging involves inherent risk—much like embarking on a romantic relationship—but Trevor considers it "easily the most rewarding" pursuit.

He laments that in modern society, people are increasingly finding community through shared toxicity and negativity. People unite over "hate tweeting," expressing shared anger toward women, or bonding over mutual disdain for a music artist. Trevor cautions that building a community around collective hate is fundamentally unsustainable because it eventually "gobbles us up" and spits us out. Instead, he advises people to discover what they genuinely love doing and connect with others who share those positive passions.

- Trevor warns against joining communities formed around collective anger or online hate. - He emphasizes that while seeking belonging carries emotional risk, the reward is "magic."

[02:37:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9468s) The Meta-Analysis: How Friendships Strengthen Romance

Elaborating on the power of community, Trevor cites academic research and meta-analyses to show how strong friendships directly improve romantic partnerships. When an individual relies solely on a romantic partner to carry every single hope, dream, fear, and frustration, the relationship eventually reaches a breaking point under that overwhelming weight.

Having a robust group of friends lightens the emotional burden placed on a partner. Rather than replacing romantic intimacy, a strong community enriches and sustains it. Trevor urges Steven—and the audience—to actively build and maintain these deep friendships. Steven promises to take the counsel to heart, and the two share a warm final exchange of gratitude as the interview concludes.

- **Key insight:** Meta-analyses show that maintaining a solid group of friends leads to healthier, stronger romantic relationships by distributing emotional burdens. - Steven vows to put Trevor's advice about friendship and community into practice.

## Notable quotes > [05:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=319s) I look at these ingredients which aren't necessarily the best in choosing your starting points, but then there was a series of lucky breaks. — Trevor Noah

> [16:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=970s) When you're a child, your parents are the most powerful beings... and if you ever have the terrible fortune of seeing your mother being violently harmed, it rocks your fundamental understanding of what the world is. — Trevor Noah

> [23:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1430s) I'll be the kind of person who will tell you when we should leave a party before a fight breaks out... I can feel energy, not like woo-woo, but I start noticing people are not having as much fun as they were 20 minutes ago. — Trevor Noah

> [41:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2505s) In moments, yes... but the levels of my forgiveness won't reach my mom's because she was in love with him... I think I feel sorry for him, I think I've learned to come to terms with it, but like pure forgiveness, I'd be lying to you if I'm like 'yeah, I've forgiven.'... Sometimes I go, 'No, actually, I don't.' — Trevor Noah

> [50:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3044s) Guys always need the third thing... It's like, 'Hey, what are you doing on Saturday? You want to go fishing?' It's like, why do we need the fishing? Why can't we just sit like this and be like, 'Hey, what's happening in your heart, Stephen?' — Trevor Noah

> [01:12:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4339s) Friendships are like little piggy banks. You're putting money in and they're putting money in yours, and every now and again, you get to break them open and enjoy what's inside. That's literally my success now. — Trevor Noah

> [01:25:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5107s) You genuinely cannot choose what's going to happen to you, but you almost definitely can choose who you're going to handle it with. — Trevor Noah

> [01:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5700s) I didn't realize at the time that the depression that I was suffering from was ADHD depression... I didn't know that ADHD can do that to you... as a byproduct of untreated ADHD. — Trevor Noah

> [01:41:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6074s) I took for granted that the pandemic was a moment where many people were forced to be at home... I realized I had made my life about work and I had made everything else secondary. — Trevor Noah

> [01:55:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6903s) I don't think it's about saying that we're broken. It's just about like understanding our cracks. — Trevor Noah

> [02:09:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7783s) I think of all the things that I would do with like giant middle fingers on my way out, and the smile that it brings to my face... every time it makes me realize that that's all I should be trying to do. — Trevor Noah

> [02:14:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8047s) Don't take for granted the answers a person can hold of you that you may not even know you needed for yourself. — Patricia Noah

> [02:18:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8307s) I love you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you... genuinely that's pretty much it because I'm really lucky that I've said and I continue to try to say most of what I should to my mom. — Trevor Noah

> [02:20:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8426s) be better than the last — Patricia Noah

> [02:30:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9040s) Yes, I would. — Trevor Noah

## Mentioned Trevor Noah, Steven Bartlett, Abel, Gabor Maté, The Daily Show, Apartheid, Soweto, Jurassic Park, Chris Pratt, Fortnite, Uber, Jon Stewart, Dan Amira, David Kibuuka, Joseph Opio, David Meyer, Craig Kilborn, Jerry Seinfeld, Daniel Kahneman, Call of Duty: Warzone, Reddit, Microsoft, Seinfeld, Grammys, TikTok, The Guardian, BBC, Breitbart, The Telegraph, Times of India, Al Jazeera, The Economist, Patricia Noah, Mo Gawdat, What Now? with Trevor Noah, Born a Crime, Into the Uncut Grass, The Little Prince, The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse, The Diary Of A CEO, Spotify

[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY)

中文简报

特雷弗·诺亚称离开《每日秀》与未接受治疗的ADHD及孤立感有关这位《每日秀》前主持人将自己反复出现的抑郁困扰归因于未接受治疗的ADHD所致的神经发育影响与现代男性的孤立感，而非临床意义上的精神疾病。在这场内容广泛的对话中，特雷弗·诺亚敞开心扉，讲述了在种族隔离制度下作为混血儿长大的经历、经受家庭创伤的幸存历程，以及面对母亲在近距离枪击中幸存这一事件的心理调适。他深刻反思了现代男性的孤独困境、非功利性友谊的重要性，以及在主持七年后离开《每日秀》的抉择。诺亚还透露了确诊成人ADHD如何解释了他反复发作的抑郁情绪，并分享了实用的身心调节技巧、他对心理治疗的看法，以及他为何反对“创伤发生必有其因”的观点。在种族隔离制度下的南非，Trevor Noah 因混血身份在法律上被划分为不同阶级，导致他的出生本身就构成“违法”，童年时甚至无法与父母在公共场合公开同行。 (7:36) 经历严重的家庭暴力并目睹母亲遭继父开枪击中头部奇迹幸存，这段创伤彻底击碎了他对安全感的认知，塑造了他敏锐的危机警觉与超强共情能力，也让他学会不再把亲人的陪伴视为理所当然。 (23:50) Trevor 认为现代年轻男性的孤独危机是中产阶级衰退、经济转型和非商业化“第三空间”消亡的下游反应，这导致男性难以在非消费场景中自如地建立深层情感联结。 (45:41) 他成年后经历的长期抑郁最终被确诊与未治疗的 ADHD 密切相关；注意力调节失衡常使他陷入负面反刍与虚无感，如今他通过运动、规律饮食等躯体调控与感官着陆技巧来打破情绪螺旋。 (122:59)

Reading summary

Comedian Trevor Noah argues that his depressive episodes were the direct result of untreated ADHD rather than innate despair, while contending that modern isolation and male aimlessness stem from broader macroeconomic decline, privatized social spaces, and unaddressed trauma. ADHD Cognitive Loops and the Depression Link (122:59) Noah explains that his bouts of depression were deeply tied to the mechanics of his ADHD, which he was clinically diagnosed with as an adult after an initial childhood evaluation was dismissed by his mother. Unlike productive periods of hyperfocus—such as intensely studying artificial intelligence or industrial design for months—his cognitive dysregulation frequently trapped him in recursive, existential loops. When his focus locked onto the mundane routines of life, his pattern-recognition abilities magnified daily tasks into bleak trajectories culminating in mortality at age ninety, inducing feelings of total meaninglessness. To manage these spirals without daily medication, Noah uses a physiological triage system before entertaining existential despair, checking whether he has slept, eaten, moved, or practiced breathwork. He also deploys an irreverent 'last day' paradigm—asking what he would do if life ended tomorrow—to reveal unmet personal boundaries and desires masked by chronic rumination. Rejecting Trauma Valorization and the 'Pencil Test' (150:40) Having survived an abusive household under Apartheid and the near-fatal shooting of his mother Patricia by his stepfather, Noah developed an adaptive hyper-vigilance that sharpened his comedic observations but created a strained, overactive nervous system. While he adopted greater presence with loved ones following his mother's survival, he firmly rejects the cultural platitude that 'everything happens for a reason.' Addressing Mo Gawdat's theoretical 'Eraser Test,' Noah states he would unhesitatingly erase his mother's shooting, his struggles with ADHD, and the system of Apartheid, asserting that suffering breaks many people rather than ennobles them. Drawing on the Japanese art of Kintsugi—repairing broken ceramics with gold lacquer—he views healing not as an erasure of fractures, but as an ongoing acknowledgment of wounds. He advocates replacing retrospective rationalization with a 'Pencil Test,' focusing on the deliberate choice to author a new narrative forward rather than viewing trauma as an essential component of identity. Leaving The Daily Show and Restoring Friction (101:14) Stepping into Jon Stewart's role at The Daily Show placed Noah under intense public backlash, including death threats and a 37% ratings drop by the 100th episode, which he navigated with perspective gained from South African racial politics and counsel from Stewart and head writer Dan Amira. However, producing the show under isolated, grueling 17-hour days during the COVID-19 pandemic revealed that work had entirely consumed his existence. Reflecting European and South African television norms where shows conclude naturally rather than running indefinitely—similar to Jerry Seinfeld leaving Seinfeld at its peak—Noah chose to step down. His departure was informed by an epiphany at a theme park, where VIP access that bypassed all wait times induced headaches and depressive lethargy rather than joy. Noah concluded that natural friction, anticipation, and shared communal effort generate genuine life satisfaction, whereas eliminating ordinary boundaries breeds emptiness. Erosion of Third Places and Male Isolation (45:41) Noah diagnoses the contemporary crisis of young men as the downstream effect of macroeconomic decline, beginning with the erosion of government-supported middle-class policies, predatory credit cycles, and wage stagnation. Historically, rigid societal expectations and even wartime mobilization supplied young men with structured purpose; their absence, combined with the loss of manual trades, has left many aimless. This crisis is intensified by the commercialization of 'third places.' Unlike his youth, where teenagers socialized in open public plazas without expense, modern leisure requires financial capital, pricing lower-income young men out of organic human contact. Noah notes that men traditionally require a 'third thing'—such as sports or video games—to connect, lacking the practice of pure socialization. Citing academic meta-analyses, he warns that retreating into digital communities built around shared anger is toxic and unsustainable, arguing that strong voluntary friendships are essential to prevent romantic relationships from collapsing under the weight of sole emotional dependency. Noah concludes that emotional resilience depends on intentionally building friction and voluntary community into life rather than allowing careers or online cynicism to substitute for connection. While acknowledging that structural economic barriers and neurodivergence present persistent hurdles, he maintains that healing requires actively engaging with feelings rather than over-intellectualizing past pain.

精炼阅读摘要

知名喜剧演员 Trevor Noah 在访谈中剖析了其重度抑郁与未治疗的成人 ADHD 之间的机制关联，指出注意力的失控容易使大脑陷入虚无主义的反刍死锁；结合自身的南非成长经历，他主张拒绝将暴力与创伤浪漫化，并通过找回真实生活中的人际摩擦力来对抗现代男性的孤立危机。 ADHD与抑郁机制：认知死锁与生理核查 (122:59) Trevor Noah 透露其在受访前两至四年通过严格临床测试确诊成年 ADHD，且该症状早在其南非童年期便曾被评估为“多动症”，但当时母亲受限于认知仅选择以祷告应对。他详细解释了 ADHD 诱发抑郁的内在认知机制：ADHD 患者的核心困境在于无法自主调节注意力的焦距，既会对外界琐碎干扰产生病态的过度关注，也容易被困在内在思维中。当高超的模式识别能力脱离具体的创造性任务，转而对日常劳作、衰老和死亡展开宏观反刍时，大脑便会无休止地陷入消极死循环，将日常的平淡放大为生存的彻底虚无，最终诱发重度抑郁。面对这种认知失控，Trevor 未依赖日常药物，而是建立了一套先于哲学思考的“生理核查清单”。每当陷入抑郁或虚无情绪时，他会率先审计睡眠、饮食、运动与深呼吸这四项基础生理指标，指出绝大多数生存危机本质上只是肉体耗竭的投射。此外，他运用“假定明日生命终结”的思想实验直面内心深层需求，通过辨析那些叛逆或果断的选择，反向绘制出自身在现实中真正被压抑的情感与生活边界。解构创伤叙事：拒绝苦难美学与金缮修补 (150:40) 童年生活在种族隔离与家庭暴力阴影下的 Trevor，曾亲历继父 Abel 对其母亲头部近距离开枪射击的极端事件，其母因弹道奇迹般避开脊髓与脑干得以幸存。针对社会主流将痛苦升华的倾向，Trevor 坚决反驳了“一切发生皆有其意义”的苦难美学。在 Mo Gawdat 提出的“橡皮擦测试”中，他明确表示若有按键能消除痛苦，他会毫不犹豫地抹去母亲遇袭、自身的 ADHD 以及种族隔离的暴行。他强调，苦难并未必然造就坚韧，现实中无数人被创伤彻底摧毁甚至代际传递暴力，受害者绝无义务感恩虐待与压迫。为了走出阴影，Trevor 倡导着眼于当下行动的“铅笔/钢笔测试”，即停止执念于过往遭遇对身份的绑架，主动书写未来的新叙事。他借用日本“金缮”（Kintsugi）工艺阐释疗愈哲学：修复不是恢复原状的幻象，而是坦然接纳碎裂痕迹并以金漆修补。对继父的宽恕亦非为其罪行开脱或遗忘暴行，而是为了卸下长久焚烧内心的暴怒，阻断幼年目睹家暴的男孩成年后演化为施暴者的恶性代际循环。告别《每日秀》：名利损耗与生活摩擦力 (101:14) 在接手 Jon Stewart 主持《每日秀》初期，Trevor 承受了公众舆论的反弹与死亡威胁，节目在百集内收视率下跌约37%，每晚流失近70万观众。在团队支持与 Jon Stewart 的点拨下，他渡过了信任危机并将节目转型为斩获多项大奖且在数字端拥有数十亿次播放量的平台。然而在事业巅峰期，Trevor 毅然决定离开。这既源于英非文化中电视节目自然完结的创作理念，也是 COVID-19 疫情居家制作期间的当头棒喝——持续高强度的工作让他猛然意识到，自己的整个存在已被工作彻底吞噬，所有人际连结皆被边缘化。 Trevor 视名望为行业的副产物而非嘉奖，成名剥夺了个体的匿名性与叙事自由，甚至令朋友因聚光灯的审视而疏远。他通过一次在主题乐园免排队游玩的经历反思了现代人对效率的盲目崇拜：在三个小时内刷完所有过山车后，同行者不仅未获得快感，反被头痛与虚无感吞噬。这一体会让他归纳出“摩擦力 + 共同付出 = 更深层满足”（Friction + Shared Effort = Deeper Satisfaction）的公式，指出幸福感恰恰蕴藏在排队等待、交谈与彼此磨合的“生活摩擦力”之中，过度消除阻力反而剥离了人生的本质滋味。现代男性孤立：第三空间消逝与连结重塑 (45:41) 针对当代年轻男性普遍面临的虚无与愤怒，Trevor 将其置于宏观社会经济背景中审视。他指出，随着中产阶级萎缩和传统赋予使命感的社会结构瓦解，年轻人失去了清晰的存在坐标；更为严峻的是，以往无需消费即可逗留的购物中心等非商业化“第三空间”急剧消亡，现实社交日益被高昂的消费门槛与数字设备订阅所取代。这导致缺乏支配性收入的年轻男性在物理世界中被实质性边缘化，丧失了在现实场景中习得情感交往与人际连结的必要习惯。此外，男性在社交模式上习惯于依赖运动或游戏等“第三件事物”作为交流媒介，缺乏女性在社群与日常互动中建立的情感互助机制。Trevor 严厉警告，在互联网上依靠共同敌意和仇恨抱团来获取归属感不仅虚妄，最终还会吞噬个体心智。他援引元分析证据指出，维系坚实的深度友谊网络能够有效分散个体的情感负担，避免将全部心理期待压在单一伴侣身上而导致亲密关系崩解，是维系心理韧性与健康关系的不可替代的基石。 Trevor Noah 的核心论述将精神困境从纯粹的个体心理缺陷，提升至脑神经机制与宏观社会异化的交叉维度进行审视。然而，这场对话也留下了深层的现实疑问：在物理层面的第三空间持续私有化、经济增长放缓且数字平台不断以算法放大孤立与仇恨的今天，缺乏丰厚物质基础与高度自省能力的普通群体，能否单凭个体的行为调整与认知转向，真正抵御系统性孤立的侵蚀。

Detailed notes — zh

## Background 本期访谈由 YouTube 频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2024 年 10 月 17 日发布。节目围绕著名单口喜剧演员、前《每日秀》（The Daily Show）主持人特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）展开，探讨了他童年在南非种族隔离制度下的生存处境、母亲遭遇家暴枪击的创伤、离开《每日秀》的深层缘由，以及 ADHD（注意缺陷与多动障碍）与其抑郁症之间的隐秘联系与现代男性的心理健康困境。 ## TL;DR 特雷弗·诺亚深度复盘了自己从种族隔离阴影下的南非走向国际巅峰的复杂人生路径。他剖析了母亲头部中弹却奇迹生还对自身生命观与宽恕认知的重构，并首次系统阐述了长期困扰自己的抑郁情绪实际上根源于未治疗的 ADHD 所带来的注意力投射与思维反刍死循环。此外，特雷弗深入探讨了现代年轻男性由于去工业化、社交空间商品化与情感表达缺位而引发的群体性孤独危机，倡导以“共同热爱”而非单纯身份标签来建立真实联结。最后，他借由日本“金缮”艺术与“铅笔测试”哲学，旗帜鲜明地反驳了苦难神圣化叙事，主张在接纳生命裂痕的同时自主书写后半段人生。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在幽默的机锋与极致的真诚之间自如流转，既具备脱口秀演员标志性的敏锐洞察与自嘲，又透着历经极端家庭创伤与舆论风暴后的沉静与透彻。史蒂芬与特雷弗的互动如同两位在成长路上背负相似不安全感的知己深谈，从对童年阴影与回避型依恋的剖析，逐步推进到对存在主义虚无与神经多样性的哲学解构。现场氛围真挚且充满温度，不仅毫无说教感，更在沉重的话题深处涌动着强大的生命韧性与相互托举的治愈力量。 ## Bulletin - [02:02:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7379s) 特雷弗·诺亚透露自己成年后确诊 ADHD，且长期困扰他的抑郁症本质上是未经治疗的 ADHD 所伴生的抑郁，其根源在于注意力失控和对特定消极念头的病态“极度专注”。 - [02:30:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9040s) 特雷弗驳斥了社会中将苦难神圣化的“一切发生皆有原因”论调，明确表示若有“橡皮擦按钮”会毫不犹豫抹去母亲中枪、种族隔离和 ADHD 等创伤，提倡用主动书写后半段人生的“铅笔测试”替代苦难美化。 - [54:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3243s) 针对现代男性的心理健康危机，特雷弗指出男性社交过度依赖钓鱼、观赛等“第三件事”作为介质，缺乏无目的情感连接与袒露脆弱的能力，而网络匿名社区与游戏正成为罕见的情感宣泄出口。 - [01:41:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6074s) 特雷弗在《每日秀》巅峰期宣布退出的深层原因，在于意识到日播脱口秀将生活全面绑架为“以工作为中心”，为了摆脱全天候新闻过载并追求跨文化探索与真实人际连接而主动选择放手。 ## Key takeaways - [26:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1593s) 童年在种族隔离制度下的非法身份与母亲遭遇家暴的经历，塑造了特雷弗的高度敏锐共情与“雷达”感知，但这种警觉机制也成为神经系统难以放松的心理枷锁。 - [31:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1882s) 母亲遭遇继父开枪击穿头部却奇迹生还，彻底击碎了特雷弗对生命的确定感，促使他将与至亲的每一次拥抱与相聚都视作不可逆的诀别。 - [40:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2458s) 宽恕施暴者并不等于遗忘或重新接纳，而是放下对方施加在内心的控制与锁链，避免将压抑的无助与愤怒转化为恶性循环。 - [45:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2741s) 现代年轻男性的无目的感与孤独危机源于宏大动员目标的消退、狭窄单一的成功评价标准，以及非交易化公共社交空间的系统性消亡。 - [59:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3594s) 男性在现实中表达脆弱往往会遭受同伴的嘲弄与惩罚，导致《使命召唤》语音与 Reddit 等剥离了现实外貌与身份标签的匿名空间成为稀缺的情感避风港。 - [01:03:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3810s) 归属感无法通过生硬地推销自我身份来获取，而应专注于投入自己真正热爱的事物，在共同体验的缓冲带中自然与同道者相遇。 - [01:15:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4533s) 名声是一项沉重的职业代价，它剥夺了生而为人最珍贵的“匿名权”，把公众人物逼入极度孤立的物理与心理空间。 - [01:20:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4818s) 生活体验的价值往往蕴含在排队、等待与摩擦之中，若开启毫无阻力的“简单模式”，反倒会瓦解人际交流与心理期待的充实感。 - [01:28:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5324s) 面对传奇交棒初期的收视暴跌与舆论恶意，决定能否熬过困境的关键不是工作本身，而是选择在战壕中与谁并肩作战。 - [01:36:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5769s) 对抗挫折依靠的绝非个人英雄主义神话，而是南非搭档与核心团队每天深夜对齐复盘所提供的现实屏障与情绪分担。 - [01:51:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6677s) 心理咨询就像身体理疗一样平常，应褪去精神疾病的羞耻标签，回归到人类自古以来寻求长者倾诉与自我校准的本质。 - [02:02:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7379s) ADHD 引发的抑郁症如同焦距被卡死的镜头，容易对机械重复的日常陷入极端的哲学反刍与存在主义虚无。 - [02:09:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7784s) 在任由大脑对人生意义展开宏大悲观推演前，必须先执行睡饱、吃好、运动与深呼吸的“生理自检四法则”，通过身体基底排除虚无感。 - [02:26:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8802s) 借鉴日本“金继”修复艺术的哲学，心理创伤的治愈并非假装裂痕未曾发生，而是接纳破碎并将伤痕转化为生命的金色脉络。 - [02:35:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9322s) 坚实的友谊不仅是独立的精神支柱，更能有效为恋爱和婚姻减负，防止将所有情感期待单向压垮在伴侣一人身上。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=0s) 开篇导引：ADHD引发的抑郁、成名代价与现代男性的困境节目在一组充满张力的对话快剪中拉开序幕。特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）坦承自己曾陷入深重的无意义感，内心被“我讨厌这一切、这太糟糕了、我不知道自己活着还想干什么”的厌世念头吞没。然而多年后他才意识到，长期困扰自己的抑郁症，其根源实际上是未经治疗的 ADHD（注意缺陷与多动障碍）所伴生的抑郁。主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）随后回顾了特雷弗的人生轨迹：他出生在南非种族隔离制度最严苛的年代，黑人母亲与白人父亲的结合在当时属于非法，童年时刻笼罩在可能被警察强行带走的恐慌中；此后母亲遭遇继父的家庭暴力，甚至曾被继父近距离开枪击穿头部却奇迹生还。前往美国追寻喜剧梦想后，特雷弗接任了《每日秀》（The Daily Show）的主持人，起初却遭遇了排山倒海的抵制与死亡威胁，无数人叫嚣着让他“滚回老家去”。特雷弗靠着近乎自虐的工作节奏顶住压力——每晚9点到家工作至午夜，次日清晨7点重返办公室——最终将节目带向巅峰。但巨大成功的代价是将生活全盘让渡给工作，陷入严重的社交隔离。特雷弗指出，这种“缺乏建立真实连接的能力”不仅是他个人的经历，更是当代整整一代男性正在面临的群体性精神危机。在正片正式开启前，主持人史蒂芬向观众分享了一组数据：常态化收听节目的听众中有 53% 尚未点击订阅。他真诚呼吁听众通过点击订阅来支持团队，并承诺将以此为动力持续优化内容、邀请观众期盼的嘉宾。 --- ### [02:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=134s) 探寻自我的配方：家庭基底与“海绵蛋糕”比喻当史蒂芬询问究竟是童年的哪些核心经历塑造了今天的特雷弗时，特雷弗坦言这是一个极难拆解的问题。人的形成就像一道复杂的菜肴，外人很难单一归咎于其中的酥脆感、酸度、咸味还是脂肪——幽默感究竟源于家庭、国家体制、所读的学校，还是后来的旅行阅历？如果真能把决定性的成分剥离得一清二楚，人或许就能随心所欲地“复刻”自己，或是精准调试身上不满意的部位。史蒂芬提出了“将人视作放入烤箱烘烤的原材料”的比喻，特雷弗借此梳理了自己的原生家庭底色：他的母亲是南非科萨族（Xhosa）女性，父亲则是旅居南非的瑞士白人；在外祖母身边长大的童年经历构成了他早期安全感的重要支柱；而他的外祖父虽然患有未被确诊的双相情感障碍（躁郁症），却极其幽默风趣，为家庭带来了充满戏剧性的底色。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 人的个性形成模型：海绵蛋糕与外在雕琢 accDescr: 特雷弗将人比作海绵蛋糕，基础胚体由家庭基因奠定，但最终的风味与形态取决于外部人际关系的涂抹与雕琢。 subgraph Base["烘烤胚体：基础设定"] A["家庭与基因设定 (黑人母亲 / 瑞士父亲)"] B["早期抚育环境 (外祖母陪伴 / 躁郁幽默的外祖父)"] end subgraph Baking["基础海绵蛋糕"] C["普遍的人类共性 (肤色、声线等基础物理属性)"] end subgraph Frosting["外部互动：赋予风味与质感"] D["后天相遇的人事物 (幸运与不幸的碰撞)"] E["主动筛选社交圈 (有意识地选择塑造自我的朋友)"] end Base --> Baking Baking --> Frosting ``` 特雷弗进一步将人比作“海绵蛋糕”：大多数蛋糕的基础胚体其实大同小异，真正决定其独特风味、外观与动态质感的，是烘焙师后续涂抹的糖霜与装饰。在他看来，每个人一生中无论幸与不幸所撞见的那些人，都在一点一滴赋予其生命独特的纹理。正因意识到外部人际关系对自我的终身塑造作用，他在成年后对挑选朋友变得极其审慎，因为“选择朋友，就是在主动挑选那些将要继续雕刻你灵魂的人”。 --- ### [05:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=319s) 倒下的第一张多米诺骨牌：1984年出生与种族隔离制度的瓦解史蒂芬感慨道，公众往往只能看到一个人人生多米诺骨牌倒到“第35张牌”时的光鲜成就，却忽视了最初倒下的那些骨牌所埋下的决定性线索。特雷弗回顾了自己的人生起点：他于1984年出生于南非，彼时距离种族隔离制度走向终结还有大约六年时间。在当时的南非法律体系下，跨种族通婚与生育均属违法犯罪。这种法律定义导致特雷弗从小生活在一个极其罕见的身份夹缝中——身边几乎没有和他具有相同成长背景的孩子；偶尔能见到外貌相似的有色人种，其社会阶层与文化背景也截然不同。南非极其错综复杂的种族分类机制，往往让不了解当地历史的国际公众感到困惑。在特雷弗看来，自己能有今天，很大程度上依赖于一系列无法由他掌控的“幸运多米诺骨牌”： - **六岁那年种族隔离制度终结**：1990年，南非开始废除种族隔离法规。特雷弗强调，若该制度哪怕多延续十年（直到他16岁），他人生的整条轨迹都会被彻底截断。 - **教育与居住权利的骤变**：在隔离制度下，黑人及有色人种儿童严禁进入白人专属学校，居住区域也被严密划界，人生的全部上限都被肤色锁死。体制的瓦解使他获得了进入优质学校受教育的权利，成为彻底改变他命运的第一张关键骨牌。 --- ### [07:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=456s) 身为“罪证”的童年：种族隔离制度的精密之恶与被庇护的现实面对出生于1992年的史蒂芬关于“童年被法律视为一种罪行在情感上究竟是何种感受”的提问，特雷弗给出了一个出人意料的答案：在表面层面上，他幼年时并未感受到那种残酷与压抑。他指出，幼童对外部世界的认知现实，几乎完全由父母或第一抚养人所构筑与过滤。在充满智慧的母亲庇护下，他当时根本不知道自己生活的环境是不正常的，更不知道母亲在法律上甚至没有生养他的资格。特雷弗深入剖析了南非种族隔离制度（Apartheid）与普通种族主义的本质差异。许多人以为种族隔离只是单纯的偏见，但它实际上是一套极其阴险、严密且系统化的国家机器： - **对比美国模式**：美国的种族划分相对粗暴简单，推行所谓的“一滴血原则”（One-drop rule），只要有一丝黑人血统即被划归为黑人。 - **集全球恶法之大成**：南非种族隔离制度的制度设计者（Architects of Apartheid）曾专门周游并考察世界各地的压迫体系。他们汲取了澳大利亚对原住民（Aboriginal people）的同化与隔离政策，借用了荷兰殖民统治的手法（“Apartheid”一词便源于阿非利卡语/荷兰语，意为“分离”），研究了纳粹德国在第三帝国时期制定的种族法案，并吸收了美国南方的吉姆·克劳法（Jim Crow laws）。特雷弗讽刺地总结道，最令人毛骨悚然的是统治者为了践踏同类所倾注的心血与“专业度”；他常常与朋友开玩笑说：“如果当权者肯把设计这套邪恶制度的庞大精力和缜密心思，用在建设一个伟大的国家上，南非本该创造出难以想象的奇迹。” ### [09:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=585s) 种族隔离制度的荒谬层级与被锁在屋里的童年特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）指出，南非种族隔离制度（Apartheid）的设计投入了巨大心力，“它是一个天才般的系统，只是完全用错了方向”。如果将这份精密的心思投入正轨，南非本可以成为世界上最强大的国家之一。这项制度对人群进行了极其琐碎而严苛的划分： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 种族隔离制度下的家庭身份与阶级划分 accDescr: 展示特雷弗的瑞士白人父亲、有色人种特雷弗以及黑人母亲之间互不相通、阶级对立的荒谬法律架构。 subgraph Hierarchy ["种族隔离法定等级架构"] Dad["父亲（白人） 法律地位：最高"] Trevor["特雷弗（混血/有色人种） 法律地位：高于母亲"] Mom["母亲（黑人） 法律地位：最低"] end Dad -->|"法律规定地位优于"| Trevor Trevor -->|"法律规定地位优于"| Mom Dad -.-x|"严禁同居 / 严禁同区居住"| Trevor Trevor -.-x|"严禁同区居住 / 街头伪装主仆"| Mom ``` 按法律规定，白人父亲优于混血特雷弗，特雷弗在等级上又优于黑人母亲；三人甚至不能合法居住在同一个区域。种族隔离制度的本质并非看重文化，而是严密监控肤色深浅，目的在于将占绝对多数的人群碎裂成众多互不信任的少数群体，从而降低统治难度。这种制度现实直接塑造了特雷弗早年的生存状态： - **“室内儿童”（Indoor Kid）的由来**：由于母亲必须外出工作，外婆在索韦托（Soweto）照看他时，整天把他反锁在房子里，严禁他外出。索韦托属于法定纯黑人聚居区，一旦警察在街头发现一个浅肤色的孩子，就会立刻强行带走。特雷弗小时候以为外婆只是管教严格，甚至还会悄悄在铁门底下刨洞溜到街上跟其他孩子玩耍，长大后才明白外婆当年内心有多么恐惧。 - **街头伪装**：在公共场合，特雷弗绝不能与父亲同框出现。而与母亲走在街头时，母亲必须乔装打扮成保姆（maid / domestic worker），佯装自己只是受雇于某个白人家庭照顾这名混血小孩，借此骗过警察在街巷中穿行。 --- ### [12:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=736s) 潜意识创伤、童年认知与加博尔·马泰的对照主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提及创伤专家加博尔·马泰（Gabor Maté）的经历：马泰在婴儿时期曾因二战纳粹迫害，被迫与犹太母亲分离了两三天。马泰认为那极短几天的母婴分离与被忽视感，在幼小心灵种下了深层的羞耻感，甚至诱发了他后来的 ADHD（注意力缺陷多动障碍）——当外部环境处于极端高压时，大脑会通过分散注意力来逃避创伤。特雷弗对此探讨了自己与马泰的不同： - **无法比较的现实即为“正常”**：特雷弗并没有觉得自己童年缺失了什么，因为孩子无法渴望自己未曾见过的现实。身边很多孩子的父亲被种族隔离警察杀害、逮捕或流亡海外，与他们相比，特雷弗反而觉得自己是“幸运的”——他知道父亲是谁，父亲爱他，且私下能定期探望。 - **与母亲从未真正断开**：无论是母亲亲自带他，还是交由外婆照看，在非洲本土及世界诸多文化里，由祖母隔代抚育都是极普遍的生活常态，母亲从未真正弃他而去。 - **对单因果创伤论的审慎**：特雷弗认为人类经验极其复杂，没有人的生活是完美无瑕的，很难将成年后的所有心理特质武断地归咎于某单一童年事件。 --- ### [15:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=959s) 母亲的新生活与继父阿贝尔的家暴阴影特雷弗证实亲生父母之间当年确实深爱彼此，但由于南非法律禁止跨种族通婚，两人绝无合法结婚的可能。后来两人走上了不同的人生道路：母亲逐渐成为虔诚的基督徒，而生父对此毫无兴趣。随后，母亲步入了另一段关系，嫁给了继父阿贝尔（Abel）。阿贝尔带来了极其复杂且充斥暴力的家庭环境： - **家暴对儿童认知世界的摧毁**：在孩子眼中，父母是宛如“总统”般至高无上的存在。当一个孩子目睹原本无所不能的母亲遭受残酷的暴力伤害时，内心对世界的安全感与基本认知会被彻底震碎。 - **长达一生的心理余波**：特雷弗坦言，即便到了今天，他依然在心理咨询中不断剥离和处理当年的记忆碎片。他在心理咨询中反复追问自己：那些经历在自己身上留下了什么不可磨灭的印记？哪些地方变得冷酷结茧而非他本意，又有哪些地方因为当年的防御机制而变得过于敏感脆弱？ - **主观创伤体验的相对性**：特雷弗认为每个人感受到的心理痛苦程度，往往是与自身经历的纵向参照物成正比的。即便外在形式不同（有人经历肉体暴力，有人承受隐性忽视），心灵所承受的冲击机制可能高度相似。 ### [19:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1190s) 不安全感、情感回避与“不同门票同一终点” 史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）与特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）深入探讨了童年不安全感对成年人情感模式的深层塑造。史蒂芬提到，尽管各人童年家庭的动荡形式不同——有的人家里充斥着争吵与大吼大叫，有的人则是其他形式的不稳定——但孩子不会坐在那里拿个小本子理性分析“这里没有肢体暴力，只是言语冲突，是因为压力造成的”，他们体验到的是一种本能的、不安全的环境。这种体验让许多成年人至今仍带着创伤生活。史蒂芬分享了自己的成年触发点：曾经他追求一个女孩长达三年，当对方终于转过头对他说“我们在一起吧”的那个瞬间，他内心涌起的恐惧感，竟然完全对应了六七岁时看着母亲当面痛骂父亲时的窒息感。对他而言，那种感觉就像是“即将面临牢狱之灾”（impending prison time）。他当年看着父亲麻木消极地坐在椅子上任由斥责，心想“他为什么不离开？为什么还和她在一起？”这种对亲密关系的潜意识恐惧，导致他过去只要一到确定恋爱关系的关头就会本能拒绝对方、落荒而逃。特雷弗表示理解但指出自己的回避机制恰好相反：他并不觉得亲密关系是监狱，而是源于“如果我不彻底对你付出，我就永远没有机会伤害你，我也不会受到伤害”。两人感叹，他们像是“坐上了同一艘船，但手里拿着不同的船票”——原因截然不同，最终却走向了相同的回避亲密关系的终点。目睹母亲因为接纳他人进入生活而惨遭伤害，特雷弗在成长中潜意识认定：向他人敞开大门就意味着将自己置于危险的深渊之中。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 童年创伤导致回避型亲密关系的机制对比 accDescr: 展示史蒂芬和特雷弗因不同童年目睹经验，各自演化出不同的恐惧机制，但最终导向相同的亲密关系回避。 subgraph Steven["史蒂芬的路径"] S1["目睹父亲被母亲痛斥且消极顺从"] --> S2["恐惧机制：亲密关系 = 宛如坐牢"] end subgraph Trevor["特雷弗的路径"] T1["目睹母亲因接纳伴侣而遭受重创"] --> T2["恐惧机制：亲密关系 = 暴露软肋与受到伤害"] end S2 --> EndResult["共同终点：亲密关系回避（在确立连接时逃跑）"] T2 --> EndResult ``` ### [23:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1380s) 普遍的社会漠视与母亲遭枪击的噩耗特雷弗谈到，这种恐惧不仅来自家庭内部，还来自外部世界的冷漠。无论是在南非还是世界各地，针对女性的暴力和杀戮（femicide and gender-based violence）往往不被社会严肃对待，甚至被轻描淡写地称为“激情犯罪”（crime of passion）。特雷弗提到前不久在阿姆斯特丹看到的抵制性别暴力的宣传活动，说明这是一个全球性顽疾。当受虐妇女报警求助时，警察往往只是轻蔑地敷衍：“那你做了什么激怒他了？这是你们夫妻俩的私事，回家自己解决吧。”这种外部环境让年幼的特雷弗意识到：连整个社会都不觉得这反常，这个世界根本无法保障我的安全。谈及最惊心动魄的时刻，史蒂芬提起特雷弗母亲被继父近距离开枪击中头部的那一天。当时特雷弗大概二十四岁，突然接到弟弟打来的电话——弟弟当时才十四岁左右，本还没到法定驾龄，却被迫开车送母亲去医院。电话里弟弟只说了一句：“妈妈中枪了。” 在接到电话的那一刻，特雷弗脑中甚至没有丝毫疑问，他立刻知道是谁干的，发生了什么。在家庭暴力和酗酒者阴影下长大的孩子，往往伴随着极度敏锐的感知和预判能力，那一刻特雷弗内心紧绷的弦彻底崩断，痛苦而绝望地想：“该死的，终究还是发生了。我早就料到会有这一天，只是没想到会以这种惨烈的方式发生。” - 母亲遭枪击时特雷弗大约 24 岁，打来求救电话的是他年仅约 14 岁的小弟。 - 特雷弗指出，社会常把家暴归咎为“激情犯罪”，执法人员甚至会倒打一耙质问受害女性“你做了什么惹他了”。 ### [26:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1593s) 高度共情能力：是礼物，更是诅咒史蒂芬将特雷弗敏锐的直觉比作“蜘蛛感应”（spidey sense），问他这种超常感知的代价是什么。特雷弗坦言：“每一种天赋都是诅咒，每一种诅咒也是天赋。” 这份“诅咒”在于他始终对周围人的情绪状态过于敏锐，神经系统永远无法真正放松。在充斥着家暴的家庭中长大的孩子，往往会把高度敏感当作保护父母的工具。年幼的孩子无法理解大人的选择，特雷弗当时总是不解：“妈妈为什么没意识到危险？她为什么不跑？为什么还要和一个醉汉说话？”当孩子认定父母无力自保时，就会在潜意识中挑起责任：“如果他们不知道危险临头，我就必须时刻保持警惕，这样才能保全所有人。” 长此以往，特雷弗发展出了极其敏锐的环境感知力： - 光凭脚步声，他就能听出继父是喝醉了还是清醒的。 - 仅靠开门或关门的力量和声音，他就能判断出是否需要立刻进入戒备状态。 - 哪怕到现在去参加派对，他总能比所有人早一步嗅到冲突的气息，在打架爆发前提前离场。这并非玄学直觉，而是他在潜意识中观察到了细节——比如人群不像二十分钟前那么开心了、几个男人的肢体动作开始带有侵略性、男女比例失衡、音乐不再合拍等。虽然这份洞察力让他成为了出色的喜剧演员，但在日常生活中，他不得不通过后天训练来学习“选择性忽略”。在朋友聚会聊得火药味渐浓时，特雷弗过去的第一反应是像《侏罗纪公园》里驯服迅猛龙的克里斯·帕拉特（Chris Pratt）一样，猛地跳出来拍手、打断、抛出幽默话题去分散大家的注意力以化解危机；而现在的他正在练习深呼吸并保持沉默，告诉自己：“这不是我的工作，我不需要保护所有人，他们都是成年人，有能力自己解决分歧。” ### [30:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1806s) 察言观色与母亲坚不可摧的信仰在充满潜在家暴阴影的家庭中长大，Trevor Noah 从九岁、十岁起就早早开启了高度敏锐的“雷达”。他必须时刻计算家里的每一个细节：门是否敞开、电视的声音要开到多大、或者说哪一句话才能微妙地扭转继父的情绪。当主持人询问他是否也曾反过来去安慰母亲、照顾母亲的情绪时，Trevor 给出了否定的回答。 Trevor 解释道，母亲 Patricia 身上既是恩赐也是“诅咒”的特质，就是她极其深厚的宗教信仰。信仰赋予了她常人难以想象的韧性与使命感，能够支撑她穿透普通人根本无法承受的磨难。因此，母亲身上从不会流露出绝望的气息，他也从不需要去刻意逗母亲开心。然而，一旦暴力或危机爆发，整座房子便会迅速笼罩在无尽的阴霾与令人窒息的紧绷压抑之中。 ### [31:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1882s) 噩耗降临：面对母亲中枪的心理预演当枪击事件发生后，现场陷入了极度的混乱与恐慌。Trevor 急忙赶往医院，配合警方并与医生沟通，但关于是否曾与开枪的继父 Abel 通话，他已经记不清细节，只确认事后彼此再无瓜葛。在医院等待医生诊断的那段时间极其漫长，“等待母亲死亡的确定消息”几乎成了全家人心中不可避免的定局。在影视剧的常识中，被子弹击中头部几乎等同于死刑。 Trevor 陷入了一种极其奇特的“提前哀悼”状态——母亲虽然尚未咽气，但在他的意识里已经彻底告别了她。他痛哭流涕，脑海中疯狂推演未来十年的规划：母亲不在了，自己将成为一家之主；该去哪里生活、如何拉扯年幼的弟弟长大、面对弟弟时该如何开口解释母亲的离去。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 枪击事件后的心理连锁反应 accDescr: 展现 Trevor 在得知母亲中枪后的心理演变与人生认知觉醒 subgraph Crisis ["危机降临与提前哀悼"] A["得知母亲头部中弹"] --> B["心理判定母亲已无生还可能"] B --> C["独自承受失去母亲的极度悲痛"] end subgraph Impact ["责任重塑与认知觉醒"] C --> D["脑海飞速构想十年后： 成为一家之主照顾弟弟"] D --> E["深刻看清人际关系与生命的脆弱性"] E --> F["转变生命态度： 将每一次拥抱都视作诀别"] end ``` 这种致命的危机彻底击碎了“父母永远会陪在身边”的幻觉，反而成为了 Trevor 人生中最珍贵的一笔财富。从此之后，他看待母亲的目光彻底改变了：每一次注视都充满感激，每一次拥抱都倾尽全力、久久不放，甚至常常被母亲半推半就地推开。这种对生命“转瞬即逝”（ephemeral）的敬畏，也深刻延伸到了他对待身边所有重要之人的态度中。 ### [34:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2084s) 穿颅而过的子弹：医学奇迹与毫厘之间的人生母亲的生还是一个连医生都不得不打破职业习惯承认的“奇迹”。Trevor 自小在母亲的影响下虽然接触宗教，却始终保持理性与怀疑态度。然而根据医生的叙述，子弹从后脑勺射入，径直穿过颅腔，却离奇地避开了大脑下部致命中枢与脊髓，随后撞击在颧骨上发生偏转，最终从鼻腔一侧穿出。子弹虽然削去了小部分鼻翼，但由于没有伤及脑组织核心，甚至无需进行开颅手术，医生所能做的仅是止血和缝合伤口。主治医生坦言自己本是信奉科学的医者，但眼前发生的一切只能用不可思议的奇迹来解释；而深信上帝的母亲则淡定地认为，这正是主对她的庇佑。主持人感叹，这正如多米诺骨牌，往往是仅仅几毫米的物理轨迹彻底改写了 Trevor 的人生走向。Trevor 赞同地表示，如果母亲当时离世，他绝不可能离开南非前往美国发展，更不可能以如今的姿态探索世界，整个人生轨迹都将承担起截然不同的家庭重担。 - **弹道路径**：子弹自后脑穿入，奇迹般绕开脑下部与脊髓神经，击中颧骨发生折射后由鼻翼穿出，未伤及核心脑区。 - **治疗过程**：无需复杂的神经外科开颅手术，主要集中于止血、清创与面部外部伤口缝合。 ### [36:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2200s) 司法盲区与对继父 Abel 的复杂情感令人愤怒的是，继父在朝妻子头部开枪后并没有被判入狱。Trevor 指出，无论是在南非还是包括美国在内的很多国家，司法系统在面对针对伴侣、妻子的家庭暴力时，往往缺乏对陌生人暴力犯罪同等程度的严惩力度。法院常以“初犯”、“偶发情感纠纷”等借口草草量刑，这种系统性失职让无数遭受家暴的女性彻底失去了获得公正的机会。谈及对继父 Abel 的愤怒与怨恨，Trevor 坦言自己内心经历了极其复杂的挣扎与拉扯： 1. **恐惧与绝望**：惊骇于这个男人竟然可以轻易夺走自己最爱之人的生命。 2. **内疚与耻辱**：外婆曾提起，Trevor 很小的时候就在家庭聚会中公开表示过对继父的警惕，觉得此人不可信赖；如今悲剧发生，他一度因未能在童年时阻止一切、没能保护好母亲而感到自责。 3. **二元视角的打破**：许多人误以为家暴施暴者是单纯的面谱化恶人，但在现实中，暴力的爆发往往只是一瞬间的极端“引爆”，而在风暴之外的大多数时候，Abel 充满魅力、幽默风趣。Trevor 曾在童年与他共度过无数快乐温馨的时光，甚至发自内心地敬重并喜欢过他。如何将“记忆中幽默慈爱的长辈”与“险些杀害母亲的凶手”重叠并加以消化，成为了他在心理上长久无法释怀的巨大难题。 ### [40:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2458s) 愤怒的漩涡与原谅的真谛在母亲中枪这一家庭惨剧发生后，Trevor 陷入了极其复杂且剧烈的情感风暴之中。愤怒成为了他当时最主要的情绪：他不仅生继父的气，也生母亲的气——气她为什么一直留在那个危险的关系中直到悲剧发生；他愤怒于整个体制未能保护他们，甚至还在生自己的气。这种怒火夹杂着极致的痛苦与绝望，往往演变成痛哭流涕，哭过之后怒火再次燃起，紧接着又是无尽的恐惧，各种情绪如潮水般一浪接一浪地反复冲刷着他。他在心理咨询中花费了大量时间去梳理这些感受，也和母亲进行了深入的交谈。母亲常对他说，随着时间的推移，人会学会去宽恕。但 Trevor 当时坚决认为自己永远不可能原谅继父。母亲则向他解释，原谅并不等于遗忘，也不意味着把对方重新接纳回自己的生活，而是“放下对方施加在你身上的控制与锁链”。原谅是对发生过的事实坦然面对，理解导致对方做出那些恶行的因果，从而熄灭内心日夜煎熬的愤怒与仇恨。Trevor 后来阅读了许多关于家庭暴力的著作并向专家请教，深刻意识到家暴中存在着可怕的恶性循环：许多在母亲遭受虐待的环境中长大的小男孩，成年后往往也会变成施暴者。这正是因为他们童年时身处险境，那些愤怒与无力感从未得到释放和表达，最终在成年后以暴力形式倾泻而出。Trevor 明白自己必须直面并承认这种极度愤怒与彻底无助的恐怖结合体。当被问及如今是否真正原谅了继父时，Trevor 坦言只能算是在某些时刻。他认为自己的原谅永远无法达到母亲那种高度，因为母亲曾经爱过继父，而对他而言，继父只是闯入生活的继父，并非生父。他能够去“理解”继父背后的成因，甚至为继父感到悲哀与可怜，也在心里达成了某种和解，但若要称之为纯粹的原谅，那便是在说谎；有时的确觉得放下了，但有时转念一想，内心依然无法真正原谅。 --- ### [43:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2625s) 创伤的隐秘指纹与记忆的错位主持人谈到这段惨痛的过往必然在 Trevor 身上留下了深刻的印记，并询问这些“指纹”如今是如何渗透在他的日常生活与职业生涯中的。对此，Trevor 坦言自己其实无法给出明确的答案。他指出人类大脑有一种非常奇特的机制：真正影响并塑造我们当下行为的因素，往往并不是那些显而易见、轰轰烈烈的大事件。 Trevor 举例说明，一个人可能遭遇过极其惨烈的车祸，经历了剧烈的创伤，自以为人生所有挣扎都源于这场事故；但如果深入剖析，可能会惊讶地发现，当下真正困扰自己的并非车祸，而是成长中那些微小的刺痛——比如某次被排挤、小时候没有被选入运动队、某次考试不及格或是曾被同学霸凌。因此他在心理咨询中学会了审慎看待过往，绝不轻易把现在的种种特质全归咎于继父开枪那一刻，因为那场枪击在某种程度上是一个相对孤立的极端事件。在心理探索的过程中，他意识到那些看似应该影响最深的大事可能被封闭在特定角落，反倒是许多微不足道的遭遇在无形中留下了极大的心理后遗症。如果非要说那次事件带来了什么确定的改变，那就是让他变得更加珍惜身边的人，与至亲相处时能够做到全身心地全神贯注。 --- ### [45:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2741s) 年轻男性的危机：愤怒、孤立与时代赋予的使命感断层话题转向现代年轻男性的心理健康危机——孤独、抑郁、自杀率攀升以及普遍的虚无与迷茫。主持人提到 Trevor 曾经表达过对年轻男性的担忧，好奇他自身年轻时的愤怒与挣扎是否与当今一代产生共鸣。Trevor 澄清道，虽然他非常理解年轻人的处境，但就他个人成长而言，他体验到的是“局外人（outsider）”的感觉，而非“孤立（isolated）”。在成长过程中，无论是在院子里和同龄人玩耍，还是和表亲们在一起，甚至是被外婆管教时，他身边始终有人陪伴，从未陷入真正的社交隔绝。然而，身为一个边缘人、局外人，这种痛苦与孤独是同一语系但不同性质的折磨，这种感觉与当今很多找不到归属感的男性十分相似。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 世代转变与年轻男性目标感演变 accDescr: 展示了从历史上的战争驱动目标到现代和平社会导致的狭窄评价体系与迷茫 subgraph HistoricalContext["历史时期：目标明确驱动"] direction TB A["战争与国家动员"] --> B["被动赋予强烈使命 （参战保家 / 反战和平）"] C["传统劳动力市场"] --> D["工作路径直接明确 （清洁、修理、手艺传承）"] end subgraph ModernCrisis["现代社会：目标感断裂与狭隘化"] direction TB E["相对和平与缺乏动员"] --> F["失去宏大目标指引"] G["单一狭隘的社会奖励机制"] --> H["传统技艺与多样身份衰退 （画家/哲学家/手艺人边陲化）"] F --> I["普遍的迷茫与无目的感 （Purposelessness）"] H --> I end HistoricalContext --> ModernCrisis ``` Trevor 从历史与社会演进的角度剖析了现代男性的迷失根源： - **战争对目标的强制赋予**：在过去的历史周期中，战争虽然残酷，但客观上给整整一代年轻男性注入了极强烈的使命感。“国家需要你”的号召让所有行动有了明确坐标；哪怕选择逃避兵役或坚决反战，反对战争本身也成了他们燃烧生命的目标。那种目标感极其强大，推动着整个国家与群体向前。 - **和平时代的悬空与选择泛滥**：进入相对和平的现代时期，不再有普遍的强制征兵，参军成了一种个人选择，社会不再自上而下地强加给年轻人一个活着的终极理由。 - **职业获取难度的质变**：上一代父母要求孩子“去找份工作”时，外面往往有大把基础工作可做，诸如清扫、修理、收集等具体劳动唾手可得；而在现代社会，不仅找工作变得极其不易，赖以谋生的路径也高度抽象化。 - **成功评价标准的极端狭隘**：社会建立了一种极度单一狭窄的奖惩标准，能够获得认可和尊严的途径变得极其有限。传统时代那种代代相传的手艺、备受尊崇的画家、哲学家或手工业工匠文化正在加速消亡，使得大量无法融入狭窄成功轨道的年轻男性陷入了严重的无目的感（purposelessness）与意义真空。 ### [50:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3058s) 职场结构转型与择偶困境：被剥夺感的男性群体讨论从去工业化与制造业整合对劳动力的影响展开。随着高等教育中女性毕业人数超过男性，平权运动推动女性大量进入高管与专业职场，原本理所应当由男性占据的高薪岗位竞争变得更加激烈。斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）指出，他在播客中曾与嘉宾探讨过一个残酷的社会现实：社会文化依然根深蒂固地要求男性扮演“养家糊口者”（provider）的角色，然而随着高薪顶层岗位的稀缺以及女性收入的大幅提升，这种传统期待与现实发生了剧烈脱节。斯蒂芬借用“矮个男难题”（short man problem）或“高个女难题”（tall girl problem）来类比这一现象——民意调查反复显示，绝大多数女性在择偶时倾向于“向上寻找”（date up and to the right），约 70% 到 80% 的女性希望伴侣能提供经济保障；然而数学逻辑在此完全失效，因为处于财富与地位顶端的男性数量根本不足以匹配这种需求。这一断层直接投射在恋爱与性生活统计上：包括初夜年龄推迟、过去一年中未发生性行为的男性比例激增，整个约会生态呈现出极端的二八定律——仅有顶层 10% 的男性在享受丰富的生活，而剩下多达 50% 的普通男性则被现有体制彻底边缘化，陷入深刻的剥夺感中。 - 约 70% 至 80% 的女性在调查中表示希望伴侣扮演经济支柱角色，但现实中顶层高收入男性的供给严重不足。 - 性生活与约会数据显示出明显的两极分化，前 10% 的男性几乎占据了大部分机会，多达半数的男性在两性交往中被孤立与边缘化。 --- ### [52:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3150s) 多米诺骨牌效应：中产阶级萎缩与资本化社会结构特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）退后一步，从更宏观的经济与社会机制剖析这一困局。他认为当代社会正在经历一场由多块骨牌相继倒下所引发的连锁崩溃。首先倒下的是“中产阶级”这块骨牌——特雷弗指出，任何严肃对待经济学的人都清楚，中产阶级并非自然生成的产物，而是过去各国政府通过政策主动托举创造出来的阶层；当全球政府逐步放弃托举，社会被灌输“人人全凭个人能力单打独斗”的虚幻叙事时，贫富鸿沟急剧扩大。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代男性孤立困境的多米诺骨牌效应 accDescr: 展示从经济制度、企业剥削到社交空间商品化导致男性失去连接能力的连锁因果过程 subgraph MacroEcon["宏观结构崩溃"] A["政府放弃扶持中产阶级 贫富差距拉大"] --> B["巨型跨国公司资本垄断 避税、低薪与债务陷阱"] B --> C["算法驱动政治极端化 社会与文化撕裂加剧"] end subgraph SocialSpace["日常与空间萎缩"] C --> D["公共空间与实体商场消亡 非货币化社交场所绝迹"] D --> E["社交全面交易化 没钱即无社交接入权"] end subgraph Psychology["性别社交文化缺陷"] E --> F["男性社交过度依赖'第三件事'"] F --> G["缺乏情感表达模板与联结能力 深陷原子化孤立"] end ``` 紧随其后倒下的是跨国资本垄断与金融陷阱。巨型企业通过跨国操作避税，对基层员工压榨极低薪资，转头向公众倾销廉价消费品，并通过次级信贷将普通人拖入无底债务泥潭；同时，算法加剧政治两极化，企业为了降本增效不断裁员或重构用工。特雷弗特别提到，在这一连串骨牌倒下的过程中，现代社会的物理与社交空间被彻底交易化（transactional）。过去孩子们可以聚在商业街或购物中心（mall）无门槛地消磨时光，而如今几乎所有社交都需要门票——没有钱买主机就无法在《堡垒之夜》（Fortnite）里见朋友，看不起不断涨价的电影、叫不起 Uber，年轻人便寸步难行，最终导致整整一代男性不仅被孤立，更完全失去了无目的社交的实践能力。 --- ### [54:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3243s) “第三件事”的枷锁：男女社交模式的差异与历史成因谈及为何男性在社会变迁中更容易陷入孤独，特雷弗分享了一个既观察深刻又带有一丝黑色幽默的观点。他认为，女性在漫长历史中曾被迫排斥在职场之外、禁锢在家中，这固然是一种压迫，但却阴差阳错地迫使女性掌握了一种极其珍贵的生存技能：在被主流视为平淡无奇（mundane）乃至毫无意义的事物中找到目标与联结。无论是编织俱乐部、读书会还是日常健身，女性很早就学会了仅仅为了“建立社群、彼此照应”而聚在一起；而当职场大门打开后，女性不仅能自如应对偏向沟通协作的现代办公环境，还保留了这项强大的社交能力。反观男性，特雷弗指出他们从来没有练习过“仅仅聚在一起的存在本身”（just being）。男性朋友之间的交往几乎永远需要“第三件事”（the third thing）作为介质——必须是一起去看球赛、打游戏、或者去钓鱼；如果一个人周六打电话给哥们说：“出来坐坐吧，我想看着你的眼睛，聊聊你心底最近在经历什么”，对方大概率会觉得他疯了。特雷弗以加勒比海特立尼达的方言词汇“liming”为例，那里的文化推崇“纯粹为了陪伴而虚度光阴”（lime），朋友聚在沙发上，聊几句、安静一会儿、笑一笑，不需要任何活动作为借口。但在大部分现代工业社会中，男性缺乏这种坦诚相待的实践，离开外部任务便手足无措。 - 特立尼达文化中的“Liming”特指没有任何具体目的、单纯聚在一起虚度光阴的社交状态。 - 男性社交模式高度受制于“第三件事”（钓鱼、打球、观赛等外部媒介），一旦剥离这些中介，彼此很难进行纯粹的情感交流。 --- ### [58:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3489s) 情感表达的代际缺失：打破有毒男子气概的起点斯蒂芬对此深表赞同，并坦言自己成长过程中完全缺乏这种健康的情感互动示范。他从未见过自己的父亲和男性朋友坐下来谈心，甚至与父亲之间连像样的深谈都没有，彼此直呼其名，连拥抱都显得僵硬尴尬、“恨不得赶紧把对方推开”。由于老一辈男性没有给出情感沟通的范本，年轻一代根本不知道去哪里习得这项技能，导致男性之间任何直接的情感关怀都会被当作异类。特雷弗笑着承认，自己现在依然会强行对身边的男性朋友做这种“灵魂审问”：“兄弟，停一下，看着我的眼睛，跟我说说你心里到底怎么了？”朋友们虽然一开始会觉得不适，但时间久了也逐渐包容并享受这种深度交流。特雷弗解释说，这种能力对他来说之所以自然，是因为他童年的大部分时光都是在女性环绕中长大的——他整天和母亲、外婆以及外婆的一众闺蜜坐在一起，耳濡目染地学会了倾听、袒露心声与情感共享。斯蒂芬随即指出，对于绝大多数没有这种成长背景、习惯压抑自我的普通男性而言，特雷弗的自如显得遥不可及，他们到底该从哪里迈出打破情感孤岛的第一步。 ### [59:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3594s) 男性脆弱的代价与线上匿名社区的救赎特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）坦言，他非常反感随口劝所有男性“走出去，展现你脆弱的一面”。现实往往非常残酷：现实中有太多男性仅仅因为展现了脆弱和真实的自我，就遭到了同伴的无情惩罚与排斥。很多时候，当一个男生向朋友倾诉自己很伤心时，得到的往往是嘲笑与挖苦——“伤心？你算什么男人啊，不就是失恋分手吗，赶紧走出来”。原本以为可以依靠的安全圈子，瞬间变成了孤立甚至霸凌的来源，有些时候言语嘲讽甚至会升级为肢体冲突，只因为你承认了自己的软弱。在社交媒体上，各类网红博主还在不断灌输“硬汉”人设，告诫年轻人必须坚强冷酷，却从未有人引导他们去面对情绪、消化痛苦，更没有人问一句：“你身边有没有一个能让你坐在一起痛痛快快哭一场的朋友？” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 男性情绪困境与破局路径 accDescr: 展示男性在现实中表达脆弱遭受惩罚，转而通过匿名线上空间获得支持的过程。 subgraph Reality["现实社交困境"] A["表达真实脆弱 / 痛苦"] --> B["遭受同伴嘲笑与排斥"] B --> C["维持强硬伪装 / 压抑情绪"] end subgraph Online["线上匿名空间"] D["网络匿名保护"] --> E["卸下身份与外表包袱"] E --> F["真诚袒露内心困惑与挣扎"] F --> G["收获同温层支持与深刻友谊"] end C -.->|"寻求出口"| D ``` 然而，特雷弗认为现代科技也提供了化解困境的工具。网络的匿名性是一把双刃剑：它既能放大恶意，让人展现出最丑陋的一面；但同时也赋予了人们一层难得的安全感，让深层且真诚的连接成为可能。特雷弗分享了自己的亲身经历：在疫情期间，平时并不太热衷第一人称射击游戏的他迷上了《使命召唤：现代战区》（Call of Duty: Warzone）。在虚拟战场上，他结识了一群素未谋面的队友。大家最初只是交流游戏战术和武器配装，渐渐地，话题延伸到了现实生活——家庭、近况、工作压力、难搞的老板以及升职的前景。其中一位战友如今已成为特雷弗最亲密的朋友之一，两人情同手足，而特雷弗甚至从未见过对方的长相，仅凭声音与在虚拟世界中的共同探索，就建立起了极其深厚的情感连接。特雷弗还特别提到了 Reddit 等论坛社区的力量。在这些平台上，男性可以褪去现实中的姓名与皮囊，毫无负担地发帖倾诉自杀倾向、迷茫感或家庭矛盾，而评论区往往会涌现出大量陌生男性的共情与支持：“兄弟，我也经历过这些”、“我懂你的感受”。特雷弗感慨，无法在现实中坦诚相待是限制现代男性的最大枷锁之一；如果男人除了竞争和打斗之外就只能把痛苦闷在心底，那种压抑最终必将通过裂痕反噬自身。 - **现实阻碍**：男性圈子普遍缺乏情绪容纳度，脆弱往往被等同于软弱，导致年轻人不敢寻求支持。 - **虚拟避风港**：游戏语音（如《Warzone》）和论坛（如 Reddit）因剥离了现实外貌与社交身份，反而成为男性情感宣泄的安全土壤。 - **压抑的代价**：特雷弗形象地比喻，情绪是无法真正封存在瓶子里的，“瓶子迟早会漏，压抑终究要付出代价”。 --- ### [01:03:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3810s) 归属感的迷思：从“寻找身份”到“共享热爱” 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）顺着孤独的话题谈到了“归属感”。特雷弗曾在自传与采访中多次提及童年时强烈的边缘感，史蒂芬对此感同身受。作为全镇唯一的黑人贫困家庭，史蒂芬在几乎全白的城镇生活到了十八岁，至今他和老家的任何人都没有联系，总觉得自己格格不入。当特雷弗追问史蒂芬如今在何时何地最能感受到归属感时，史蒂芬苦涩地承认，自己只有在“独处”时，或是圣诞节和同样格格不入的兄弟们聚在一起时，才觉得自在。特雷弗闻言不禁感叹：“因为只有独处时，你才能彻底做自己。” 谈及自己是否在这个世界上找到了属于自己的位置，特雷弗给出了否定的回答。他坦言自己从未找到所谓的“归宿”，他所拥有的只是那些能让自己感到舒适与“温暖”的特定瞬间和角落。特雷弗向所有在孤独中挣扎的人分享了一项至关重要的人生体悟：许多人的孤独感之所以被无限放大，是因为他们总试图纯粹以“自我”为媒介去生硬地链接他人——就像走上前去突兀地说：“嗨，这就是我，我属于你吗？你属于我吗？”这种缺乏支点的互动只会让人觉得怪异与尴尬。特雷弗给出的破局之道是：**停止执着于寻找身份认同，转而专注于寻找自己真正热爱的事物**。无论是跑步、打球、阅读、手工还是钓鱼，只要全身心投入到一项具体的活动中，人就能在做热爱之事的轨道上自然而然地与同道者相遇。共同的爱好成为了人与人之间天然的缓冲带与纽带，归属感是在共享体验中水到渠成的产物，而非凭空强求而来的身份标签。 --- ### [01:06:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3998s) 友谊的演进与优质朋友的真正定义史蒂芬提到了一张著名的人生社交图表（展现人类随着年龄增长与不同人群相处时长的变化），该图表显示，人在步入成年后与朋友相处的时间呈断崖式下跌。史蒂芬坦言这张图曾彻底改变了他的人生观，让他意识到如果自己不主动维护，最要好的几个挚友终将随着岁月渐行渐远。以此为引，史蒂芬询问特雷弗从离开南非前往美国追逐脱口秀梦想至今，对友谊与人际连接的看法发生了怎样的转变。特雷弗回忆道，正因为童年时期大部分时间都在极度孤独中度过，他反而对人际交往充满了极大的渴望——小时候哪怕只是在铁门底下挖个洞钻出去和其他孩子玩耍，对他而言都是无上的天堂。步入青年并开始工作后，他愈发感激那些走进他生命中的人，以及他们所带来的启迪。在特雷弗看来，一段伟大友谊的核心本质在于：**对方能看见你身上那些你渴望茁壮成长的部分，并在每一次相聚时都予以鼓励和提醒**。优质的朋友就像一面镜子，映照并滋养你内心中向善、向上的那一面。与此同时，特雷弗也警示人们远离“坏朋友”：不良的社交关系同样具有强大的塑造力，但它们唤醒的却是你内在的自卑与恐惧。正如当年在学校霸凌你的恶霸一样，无论你如今在世俗意义上取得了多么巨大的成功，一旦再次面对他们，恶劣的关系仍旧有能力在一瞬间将你拉回当年那个瑟瑟发抖、自我怀疑的弱小状态。 ### [01:08:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4107s) 重新定义“坏朋友”与友谊的镜子 Trevor 顺着前文关于童年霸凌的记忆展开讨论，指出很多人即使成年后取得成功，心底深处依然残留着当年被霸凌的那个受伤小孩的身影。人们之所以会陷入这种状态，是因为他人常常把我们定格在过去的某一个瞬间——有的人将你锁死在消极痛苦的记忆里（比如当年被辱骂歧视性词汇的时刻），而有的人则将你留在充满积极能量的时刻中。对于真正的好朋友，无论生活正在经历什么，只要一见到他们，Trevor 就会情不自禁地微笑、思考、迸发创意、大笑与分享爱。这是无需刻意控制的自然反应，因为这些朋友始终能看到并唤醒他内心最渴望被滋养的那一面。针对“如何识别坏朋友”的问题，Trevor 提出了一个颠覆常规的见解：坏朋友不是用眼睛“看出来”的，而是用心“感受”到的。很多时候，世上或许并不存在本质上的“坏人”，而只是存在一段“不适合你的糟糕友谊（bad friendship）”。对方可能对其他人来说是绝佳的挚友，但如果你在一段关系中无法做真实的自己，对方交往的只是关于你的“虚构形象”而非真实的你，那么你离开时自然会感到消耗与沮丧。在这种情况下，不能单方面归咎于对方是坏人，而应看清这段关系本身并不适合彼此。 --- ### [01:09:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4192s) 母亲的箴言：靠近奔跑的人，你才会想奔跑 Trevor 分享了一段十九、二十岁刚高中毕业时的转折经历。当时他终日无所事事，混迹于街头社区（the hood），和同伴们整天谋划着怎么到处折腾混口饭吃。后来他的堂兄弟考上了大学，由于该大学校园实行相对开放的门禁政策，Trevor 便每天跟着堂兄混进大学校园，在堂兄去上课的空档闲晃打发时间。有一天，当他与堂兄一同回家时，母亲满脸笑容、容光焕发地迎接他们，表现得异常欣慰。Trevor 感到十分不解，便挑明说自己并没有去上大学，只是在校园里无所事事地闲逛。母亲却对他说出了一番令他终生难忘的哲理：“你虽然在那里什么都没做，但你周围那些奔跑着、正在对人生有所作为的人，会激励你去做更多事情。你不可能身处在一群不断前行的人群中，自己却不想迈步。”母亲的话让他深刻意识到：无论我们是否承认，身边的人都在潜移默化地塑造我们对自我的认知以及我们渴望成为的模样。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Social Environment Impact on Personal Growth accDescr: Trevor Noah's transition from idling in the neighborhood to being inspired by ambitious peers on a university campus. subgraph Hood["社区街头环境"] A["街头无业同伴"] -->|"虚度光阴 / 谋求小营生"| B["停滞不前、视野受限"] end subgraph University["大学校园环境"] C["积极求学的大学生群落"] -->|"潜移默化的前行动力"| D["唤醒进取心与成长渴望"] end B -.->|"环境转换"| C D --> E["终身益友圈：格莱美/每日秀后台一路同行的伙伴"] ``` 这段深刻的教诲成为了 Trevor 建立友谊的核心指南。时至今日，他的核心朋友圈依然是这群见证他成长的人：他们会出现在格莱美奖（Grammys）的现场、在《每日秀》（The Daily Show）后台相聚，或者在他的全球脱口秀巡演幕后陪伴着他。他们各自拥有独立而精彩的生活，但彼此的人生轨迹紧密交织，始终相互挑战、激励与玩闹，这种高质量的友谊纽带被 Trevor 视作远超任何世俗名利的无价之宝。 --- ### [01:12:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4339s) 奔波背后的驱动力：告别“有毒燃料”，以友谊重构生活主持人提到 Trevor 令人惊叹的拼搏精神和行程密度：在短短四天内，他从葡萄牙飞到西雅图，再辗转拉斯维加斯，最后抵达纽约。主持人质疑，以 Trevor 如今雄厚的财富积累，根本不需要为了金钱如此奔波，这是否源于某种被称为“有毒燃料（toxic fuel）”的内在驱力——即第一代移民常有的、通过自证与羞耻感来驱使自己拼命工作的心理机制。 Trevor 坦言自己能理解这种心理，但如今这已不再是支配他的动力： - **四年前的拼搏模式**：如果是过去，连续跨国飞行纯粹是为了四处赶场接活、为了工作而工作； - **当下的生活重构**：此次在葡萄牙是纯粹陪伴挚友度假；去西雅图是出于对科技的热爱与微软（Microsoft）团队一起探索工程与思想项目；去拉斯维加斯是完成工作；而飞抵纽约是因为纽约有他的朋友且是他的家。如果播客录制地点换在别处，他很可能会直接拒绝。 Trevor 将“友谊第一”设定为当下人生的核心准则。他指出，许多人将家庭视为唯一支柱，但往往忽略了孩子终将长大离家、最终身边可能只剩伴侣甚至独自一人的现实。而友谊就像一个个小存钱罐，平日里彼此存入关怀与情感，必要时打破它，便能获得丰沛的支撑与慰藉。 --- ### [01:15:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4533s) 解谜的痴迷与成名的代价：被剥夺的匿名权回顾当初前往美国接手《每日秀》的初衷，Trevor 澄清那既非为了财富也非为了名利，而是源于他对“解谜”近乎纯粹的渴望。当时摆在眼前的谜题是：“一个非美国本土出生的人，到底能不能把《每日秀》主持好？”这个在常人看来疯狂且看似不可能的挑战，恰恰激发了他解开复杂难题的本能。谈及名气（fame），Trevor 直言不讳地将其定义为工作的“诅咒”： - 他不仅不需要名气，甚至非常厌恶这一副产品，认为它是成名职业所必须付出的沉重代价。 - 名声剥夺了生而为人最珍贵的特权——**匿名权（anonymity）带来的平静与自由**。 - 普通人在日常生活中走进酒吧、餐厅或火车站，每当遇到陌生人说出一句“你好，我是……”，就意味着拥有了从零开始书写自己故事的自由，如同在认识尤达大师（Yoda）之前、生活在荒凉星球上的卢克·天行者（Luke Skywalker），只是一个未被定义的纯粹个体；而一旦失去了匿名性，你的故事在开口之前便已被外界的预设与标签牢牢焊死。 ### [01:17:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4645s) 重写叙事的能力与名气背后的孤立牢笼特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）以《星球大战》中的卢克·天行者（Luke Skywalker）作比：刚登场时，卢克只是一个在荒漠星球上度日的普通少年；多年之后，他却能坦然宣告自己是一名绝地武士。特雷弗感叹，人类往往低估了一种宝贵的能力——随着境遇变迁，我们完全可以从全新视角重写自己的人生故事。然而，当一个人彻底成名，这种自由便伴随着残酷的代价：匿名性荡然无存，公众自作主张地重新划定了你“应得”的隐私底线。特雷弗透露，许多朋友甚至不愿意和他一起去公共场所用餐，因为他们只想穿平常的衣服吃顿便饭，不想被人拍照打扰，也不想因为站在他身旁而被大众品头论足。特雷弗的母亲曾直言：“你现在属于全世界了。”这种名气带来的异化在于，公众无论在何时何地撞见你，都期待你能热情回应并腾出时间。公众视角里这是一场美好的邂逅，却极难设想明星也是一个可能正处于糟糕状态的普通人。特雷弗打趣道，他曾与前任开玩笑说，两人在餐厅吃饭时甚至不敢过于绘声绘色地讲故事，因为只要手势稍显激烈，远处的路人拍照后就会变成八卦新闻：“特雷弗·诺亚在餐厅与女友大吵”，随后身边的亲友就会纷纷发来关切的信息。这种无孔不入的凝视，让特雷弗深刻理解了为何如此多的公众人物深陷抑郁与自我封闭： > “想想看你听过多少次这样的新闻：某位巨星去世了，他们从来不是在公共场合去世，也从来不是在朋友身边去世，永远是孤身一人死在酒店房间或浴缸里……全世界都在为他们痛哭，却很少有人意识到，人尽皆知其实可以极其孤独，因为这意味着你几乎在任何地方都无法真正独处。” - **失去匿名的连锁反应**：连与亲近之人正常进餐的松弛感都会被剥夺，任何被放大的举动都可能沦为小报头条。 - **名人的孤立陷阱**：无法在真实世界中自由穿行，迫使许多名人退缩至极度孤立的物理与心理空间。 - **真诚连接的重要性**：面对被公众“拥有”的压力，唯有最核心、不戴滤镜的朋友圈能提供对抗虚无的锚点。 --- ### [01:20:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4818s) 游乐园的顿悟：阻力与等待才是生活最美好的配方特雷弗强调自己绝非在抱怨名声有多糟糕，但他坦言成名带来的许多特权既非他所求，亦非他所需。他依然喜欢在餐馆门口排队等位，正如相比于容纳上万人的大型体育馆，他更享受在仅有 70 人的小型脱口秀俱乐部演出。为了说明这一点，他分享了自己最喜欢的主题公园过山车经历。过去，他和朋友们去游乐园总是按部就班：排队一小时，痛快玩 60 秒，再步行半小时前往下一个项目，循环往复却其乐融融。直到他成为《每日秀》（The Daily Show）主持人后，园方得知他到访，热情地为他提供了免排队的 VIP 通道，承诺可以无限制畅玩所有设施。特雷弗当时狂喜地心想：“《每日秀》终于带来回报了，受过的所有死亡威胁总算值了！”然而，原本需要耗费 8 到 10 小时的游玩路线，他们仅用 3 个小时就疯狂刷完了所有大项目。结果却是灾难性的：特雷弗头痛欲裂，朋友们严重脱水，彼此之间几乎没说上几句话。坐回车里时，众人感到前所未有的空虚与沮丧。回到住处复盘后，他们才恍然大悟： > “我们以为自己热爱主题公园是因为过山车，其实真正的原因是，它迫使我们作为朋友站在队伍里整整一小时，仅仅是待在一起聊聊天。你什么也做不了，只能彼此陪伴。” 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此深表认同，并指出这种“在体验中加入摩擦反倒提升价值”的现象有心理学实验佐证：在一个平庸的社区论坛实验中，无需门槛直接进入的人普遍觉得无聊，而必须通过层层严格考核与等待才获准进入的人，却在事后评价该论坛极其精彩。特雷弗总结道，精心设计的主题乐园故意制造排队通道和声响反馈，正是构建心理期待的过程。一旦直接开启“生活简单模式”（Easy Mode），剥离了等待与阻力，原本构成人际连接与美妙体验的骨架也随之瓦解。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 体验模式对比：VIP免排队与常规排队体验 accDescr: 对比免排队特权与常规阻力排队带来的不同心理状态与体验价值 subgraph VIP["免排队特权模式（简单模式）"] V1["取消排队与摩擦"] --> V2["高密度连续刺激"] V2 --> V3["剥离朋友交流与期待缓冲"] V3 --> V4["结果：头痛、虚脱、空虚沮丧"] end subgraph Regular["常规阻力模式（丰富体验）"] R1["排队一小时建立心理期待"] --> R2["朋友面对面漫谈与陪伴"] R2 --> R3["60秒过山车的高潮释放"] R3 --> R4["散步与共同复盘回味"] R4 --> R5["结果：获得真实连接与长久充实感"] end ``` --- ### [01:25:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5107s) 接棒《每日秀》：从死亡威胁到步入神坛的阴影谈及成名特权时随口提到的“死亡威胁”，话题自然转向了特雷弗接替乔恩·斯图尔特（Jon Stewart）出任《每日秀》主持人的转折点。作为这类殿堂级美国政治讽刺节目的首位外籍面孔，特雷弗在接棒之初遭遇了极其惨烈的舆论风暴与低谷，境况甚至可以用“绝对糟糕透顶”来形容。特雷弗自嘲当时真是“要小心你许下的愿望”（be careful what you wish for）。他本以为这只是一次充满吸引力的新挑战，但真正坐上那张主播椅后才迅速意识到，那绝不仅仅是一份单纯的主持工作，而是一个被神圣化的高位。前任主持人乔恩·斯图尔特在全美观众心目中不仅是“全美最受信任的男人”，更是一整代人的精神代言人与良心标杆，甚至连华盛顿的政客们每逢大事都要看他的态度。而一个来自南非的年轻局外人想要接替这一象征符号，迎面而来的便是一场从数据到人身威胁的漫长战火。 ### [01:26:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5168s) 接棒传奇之痛：改变的阵痛、种族与恶意攻击接替像乔恩·斯图尔特（Jon Stewart）这样的传奇人物主持《每日秀》（The Daily Show），本身就注定要经历一段被大众抗拒的过程。崔娃（Trevor Noah）指出，无论是当年约翰尼·卡森（Johnny Carson）还是杰·雷诺（Jay Leno）交棒，观众都会抗拒改变。种族确实是一个因素，但更深层的原因在于他与斯图尔特截然不同的特质放大了观众对“变化”的感知。令人意外的是，网暴和恶评并非全来自保守派，许多自诩开明的自由派观众也发来充满恶意的邮件。崔娃很快意识到，这些人并不是真正讨厌他本人，而是讨厌“斯图尔特离开、世界改变了”这个事实，而崔娃成了那个替罪羊。由于《每日秀》深度介入政治评论，恶评很快升级为死亡威胁，有人甚至叫嚣让他“滚回非洲”。崔娃幽默而辛酸地表示，在南非种族隔离阴影下长大的经历成了他的“天赋与诅咒”——因为他早已见识过“最高规格的种族歧视”，所以面对美国的攻击反而有了极强的心理防御机制。 - **交接宿命**：观众对前任的执念往往会转化为对继任者的敌意，把主持人的更替等同于自己喜爱的世界被破坏。 - **顶级歧视抗体**：在南非的生活背景让崔娃在面对种族言论与仇恨邮件时能够保持抽离与冷静。 --- ### [01:28:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5324s) 战壕岁月：选择与谁并肩作战远胜过工作本身在《每日秀》初期遭受全网口诛笔伐的至暗时刻，支撑崔娃坚持下来的关键是整个制作团队。崔娃分享了一条至今仍指导他人生的黄金准则：你无法选择会遭遇什么，但你完全可以选择与谁一起去面对。他宁可做一份糟糕的工作但与优秀的人共事，也绝不愿在一份光鲜亮丽的工作中与糟糕的人共事。当时的处境极其残酷：收视率刚开播时每晚缩水数十万人，播到第 100 集时收视率更是较以往暴跌了 37%，影评人和媒体纷纷呼吁砍掉该节目。尽管多年后该节目斩获多座艾美奖，并在数字端和社交媒体创下数十亿次曝光的辉煌战绩，但身处“战壕”内部时，他们每天都在与外界的唱衰和自我怀疑搏斗。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Trevor Noah 团队与困境选择模型 accDescr: 展示 Trevor Noah 在面对不可控困境时，将焦点放在选择团队伙伴而非工作本身的决策逻辑 subgraph External["不可控的外部遭遇"] A["传奇交接带来的阵痛"] --> C["收视率暴跌与外界唱衰"] B["舆论恶意与停播呼声"] --> C end subgraph Internal["唯一可控的决定"] D["选择与谁并肩面对"] end C --> E{"应对策略"} D --> E E --> F["深耕团队凝聚力：熬过战壕期"] F --> G["最终收获艾美奖与数十亿次数字化突破"] ``` --- ### [01:30:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5426s) 想要放弃的一天：首席编剧的“午餐逻辑” 在外界舆论压力最大的时候，曾经发生过一次因节目官方账号发布了一条争议推文而引发公关危机的事件。媒体立即大作文章，质问“这就是为什么崔娃不配做主持人”。尽管推文并非崔娃所发，但因为节目冠着他的名字，所有矛头都指向了他。心力交瘁的崔娃走进首席编剧丹·阿米拉（Dan Amira）的办公室，沮丧地表示自己打算辞职，这样大家的日子都会好过些。平日里以冷面幽默著称的丹·阿米拉听后，极其淡定地回了一句：“但如果你走了，这个节目可能会被砍掉，那我就吃不到这里的免费午餐了。”在崔娃愣住之际，丹用极其冷静的逻辑点醒了他：“那些讨厌你的人，你走之后会喜欢你吗？不会。既然你走他们不喜欢你，你留下来他们也不喜欢你，那你为什么不留下来？反正我挺喜欢跟你一起工作的，所以留下来吧。”这段直白而幽默的对话成了关键转折点，让崔娃打消了离开的念头。 --- ### [01:32:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5560s) 乔恩·斯图尔特的启示：同一个记者的两篇打脸文章除了团队的支持，被崔娃戏称为“犹太尤达大师”的前任主持乔恩·斯图尔特也给崔娃上了极为深刻的一课。在斯图尔特即将离职前，他把崔娃叫进办公室，先展示了一篇赞美斯图尔特是“美国政治心脏、绝对不能离开”的煽情报道；随后，斯图尔特又搜出了两三年前他在巅峰期时的一篇旧文，标题赫然写着“为什么斯图尔特必须滚出《每日秀》、他是美国的毒瘤”。斯图尔特让崔娃看署名——两篇文章出自同一个记者之手。斯图尔特以此告诉崔娃：当年自己接替克雷格·基尔伯恩（Craig Kilborn）时，全美也认为他是个灾难，外界的评价如同墙头草般不可信。 - **媒体舆论的荒谬性**：同一个记者在斯图尔特任职时喊他“滚蛋”，离任时又称他是“不可或缺的灵魂”。 - **先驱者的宿命**：所有后来被奉为经典的接班人，在第一天都会被所有人断言“绝不可能成功”。 ### [01:34:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5697s) 独处、未确诊的 ADHD 与抑郁的真相主持人 Stephen 提及 Trevor 曾周期性地与抑郁症抗争，并询问在接手《每日秀》（The Daily Show）早期那些低谷时刻，当他晚上回到住处、不再有同事围绕、独自一人面对四壁时，是怎样的一种体验。Trevor 纠正了一个至关重要的概念：他当时并不知道自己经历的其实是“ADHD 引起的抑郁症”（ADHD depression），而非临床上的典型单相抑郁症。 Trevor 回忆说，自己过去常常对抑郁的概念感到困惑——因为他并不是一直陷入持久的绝望中，而是会经历突然的断崖式低谷。直到后来他才明白，这是未确诊、未治疗的 ADHD 所带来的副产物。但这不仅是一个病理学上的注脚，在现实层面，他之所以能够挺过那段暗无天日的时期，关键在于他“从不是孤身一人回家”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: ADHD Depression vs Clinical Depression accDescr: Trevor Noah distinction between untreated ADHD depression and perpetual clinical depression subgraph ADHD["ADHD 引起的抑郁状态"] A1["未确诊 / 未治疗的 ADHD"] --> A2["多巴胺调节异常与周期性情绪崩塌"] A2 --> A3["并非持续性绝望，而是特定情境下的低谷"] end subgraph Defense["现实中的生存屏障"] B1["同伴支持（David Kibuuka 等人）"] --> B2["日落复盘与情绪分担"] B2 --> B3["阻断孤立感与灾难化思维"] end ADHD --> Defense ``` ### [01:36:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5769s) 走出大楼的伙伴：粉碎“个人英雄主义”的迷思 Trevor 强调，外界往往喜欢把逆境中的坚持描绘成一种孤胆英雄式的个人追求，但他认为这完全是谎言。当时，他多年的南非合作搭档 David Kibuuka 也搬到了纽约（两人在南非共同创办过单口喜剧之夜）。无论是纽约最酷热的严夏，还是刺骨的寒冬，他们每天晚上 8 点或 9 点一同走出演播大楼，回到合租的公寓。两人摊开笔记本，坐在一起反复复盘：“我们今天本可以做得更好的是什么？今天的成就有哪些？”一直工作到午夜，睡下后第二天清晨 7、8 点再一起赶往办公室，日复一日。除了 David，还有来自乌干达的编剧 Joseph Opio——他曾在乌干达制作过当地版本的《每日秀》，后来成为 Trevor 最亲密的朋友之一。在整个团队陷入自我怀疑时，Joseph 始终在旁边坚定地打气：“我相信我们，我们能做到。”Trevor 坦言，如果每天晚上是他独自一人回家面对空荡荡的房间，他不仅不可能坚持下来，甚至根本就不会坐在这个演播室接受采访，从一开始就不会接下《每日秀》的主持棒。 - **对“白手起家”（Self-made）叙事的抨击**：Trevor 极度反感“白手起家的亿万富翁”这类措辞。他讽刺道，难道这些人是靠双手亲自造出所有产品、开着卡车去送货、独立完成所有门店分销、独自想出一切绝妙点子吗？ - **夏尔巴人（Sherpa）隐喻**：人们总在攀登珠穆朗玛峰的故事里吹嘘“我登顶了”，却绝口不提沿途负重、铺路并保住登山者性命的夏尔巴人。夏尔巴人登顶珠峰的次数远超最著名的登山家，不承认他们的贡献，就如同“有人背着尤塞恩·博尔特（Usain Bolt）跑完百米，结果那个背人的人却不被视为世界上跑得最快的人”。 - **学习效应**：就像上学时有学习搭档的学生往往成绩更好一样，合作与支持能极大分担负荷，试图“单枪匹马搞定一切”只会给自己带来不切实际的重压。 ### [01:41:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6074s) 巅峰隐退：为何在《每日秀》最辉煌时离开？当《每日秀》斩获多项大奖、网络播放量突破百亿次、成功完成数字化转型成为全网顶级 IP 时，Trevor 却在声势最高峰时选择宣布离开。面对 Stephen 关于“为什么有人会在这个节骨眼上离开”的疑惑，Trevor 的回答非常干脆：“因为时候到了（It was just time）。” Trevor 解释，这种感知与他的文化背景息息相关。在南非以及英国等地的电视行业生态中，电视剧或节目到了一定阶段就会自然完结，极少像美国那样动辄拍上 10 季、20 季。完结并不意味着它搞砸了，而是它的使命已经完成，就像经典情景喜剧《宋飞正传》（Seinfeld），哪怕电视网挥舞着支票簿哀求继续，创作者也会坦然认定“到此为止”。此外，COVID-19 疫情也是一个关键转折点。疫情期间，全世界许多人被迫停下脚步，在残酷的大环境中获得了一个审视生活的停顿契机。然而 Trevor 却因为将节目搬到家中录制，反而一直处于高负荷的连轴转状态中。虽然这让他免于陷入“无事可做”的恐慌，但也让他意识到自己被卷在高速运转的机器里，最终促使他重新评估人生的下一段旅程。 ### [01:43:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6214s) 疫情期间的三人剧组与“以工作为中心”的反思新冠疫情彻底颠覆了《每日秀》（The Daily Show）原有的庞大电视工业运转模式。当时没有专业的摄影机，没有浩浩荡荡的幕后摄制组，特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）只能在公寓里用几台 iPhone 录制节目，现场仅有三个人——特雷弗本人、碰巧住在同一栋楼的制片人大卫（David），以及另一位大卫。三个人硬生生地扛起了一档原本需要上百人协同制作的日播脱口秀。隔着虚拟屏幕做节目、无法与人群共处一室、无法四处巡演，更无法回到南非老家，这种极度受限的状态促使特雷弗对整个人生进行了彻底的复盘。他猛然察觉到一个残酷的事实：多年来，他把整个人生都建立在“工作”之上，生活中的其他一切都沦为了次要附庸。他只会在“没有工作安排时”才去见朋友、才去和朋友旅行、才去出席别人的婚礼；身边的亲友甚至已经习惯并默认了这种相处模式，开口前总会小心翼翼地加上一句：“特雷弗，如果你那天不工作的话……”疫情期间退后一步打量，特雷弗意识到自己在《每日秀》已经度过了整整八个年头（包含在乔恩·斯图尔特时期担任特约通讯员的一年，以及长达七年的正式主持生涯）。他完全可以按部就班地在这个顶尖位置上一直干下去，但他开始追问自己：难道人生就只有这一件事吗？离开演播室，自己还能做些什么、去往何处、想把宝贵的时间交付给谁？离开节目后，他也更加坚信现实政治绝非非蓝即红的二元对立，世界上任何问题都不可能只有两种解决方案；长期被困在单一的政治喜剧擂台上，人很容易不知不觉将那种局限的视角当成世界的全貌。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Daily Show Work Paradigm Shift accDescr: Diagram illustrating Trevor Noah's realization during the pandemic from all-consuming work to seeking broader life fulfillment. subgraph WORK["过去的重心：工作至上"] A["日播脱口秀高强度运转"] --> B["生活与社交全成附庸"] B --> C["政治认知二元固化"] end subgraph TURNING["疫情触发的反思契机"] D["三人iPhone剧组极简制作"] E["跨国旅行中断与深度隔离"] end subgraph LIFE["追寻的新维度：生活与人际"] F["重聚亲友与回归南非"] G["学习语言与跨文化喜剧"] H["打破非黑即白的思维框架"] end WORK --> TURNING TURNING --> LIFE ``` ### [01:45:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6344s) 损失厌恶与离开巅峰的抉择：追求比成功“更多”的生活史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）探讨了职场人面对高位离开时的普遍恐惧：许多身处社会精英阶层的人，即便内心深处早已听到“现状不对劲”的声音，往往仍会因为深层的“损失厌恶”（Loss Aversion）而被死死困在原地。正如行为经济学家丹尼尔·卡尼曼（Daniel Kahneman）等人的研究所揭示的，失去一美元带来的痛苦往往需要捡到两到三美元的快乐才能抵消；在现实中，人们往往需要预期获得数倍的回报，才敢于割舍眼前的安稳与地位。特雷弗坦言，自己很幸运并非因为在节目中感到痛苦或厌倦而逃跑。他并不讨厌这份工作，但他渴望把有限的精力转向生命中更广阔、更深刻的事物。他渴望花更多时间陪伴所爱之人，渴望在南非生活更久，渴望游历世界、学习新的语言，并去往不同文化的国家打磨和实践脱口秀。促使他迈出这一步的不是对现职的怨恨，而是一种清晰的内心指引——他想让自己的生活变得更宽广、更丰富。 - **损失厌恶机制**：人对失去现有位置与成就的恐惧极度强烈，往往需要两到三倍的潜在回报才愿意放弃既得利益。 - **特雷弗的抉择动机**：并非出于职场倦怠或痛苦，而是主动追求超越工作本身的丰富生命体验。 - **向外探索的向往**：包括学习外语、跨国脱口秀探索以及深耕长期的跨国人际关系。 ### [01:47:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6437s) 告别全天候的新闻过载：给大脑和心灵喘息的空间特雷弗引用了一句老话——“失去了才懂得珍惜”（"You don't know what you've got till it's gone"）。疫情剥离了生活的外壳，让人们看清真正重要的从来不是去电影院或消费娱乐，而是人与人之间面对面的连接：大家在同一个空间里欢呼、合唱、大笑的共鸣感。当时所有留在南非的朋友与家人被困在远方，特雷弗切身体会到了生命的短暂与易逝。他拷问自己的灵魂：究竟是电视节目的收视率与世俗成功更重要，还是现实中友情与亲情关系的质量更重要？在人生中，唯有放开旧事物，才能腾出手去拥抱新天地。《每日秀》是一项彻头彻尾耗尽心力的工作，根本无法“兼职”应付；连重返节目的乔恩·斯图尔特（Jon Stewart）如今也只做周播，深知日播模式的摧残性。特雷弗在任期间，每天下班离开演播室后，生活依然被浩瀚的新闻巨浪吞没。他要持续轮番阅读《卫报》（The Guardian）、BBC，浏览保守派与右翼媒体如 Breitbart，再转向《每日电讯报》（The Telegraph）、《经济学人》（The Economist）、半岛电视台（Al Jazeera）和《印度时报》（Times of India），常年几乎读不下一本虚构类小说。针对现代人的普遍焦虑，特雷弗给出了极为诚恳的忠告： - **新闻减负建议**：现代社会制造了“必须实时掌握所有动态”的虚假焦虑；实际上每周集中看一次新闻，掌握的有效信息完全不亚于每日刷屏的人。 - **摆脱无休止的猜测**：紧跟日更的“突发/追踪报道”（developing stories）只会让人深陷媒体的盲目揣测与无端推演；唯有给新闻事件沉淀和呼吸的时间，事实真相才能清晰呈现。 ### [01:51:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6677s) 走进心理咨询：如同身体理疗般审视自我运作主持人指出，统计数据显示男性——尤其是少数族裔男性——往往是寻求心理咨询比例最低的群体，因此公开探讨接受心理治疗的动机与心路历程尤为重要。特雷弗回忆，自己大约是在 2014 或 2015 年前后首次走进心理咨询室。特雷弗将心理咨询比喻为“身体理疗”（Physical Therapy）。促使他去咨询的动力，源于一种对自我探索的由衷好奇：他深深着迷于让一位专业人士帮助自己看清内在思维与行为机制的成因。就像身体理疗能让人惊觉自己的脖子为何长年受限、脊柱为何僵死、呼吸机制为何紊乱一样，心理咨询能在动大手术式的精神危机爆发之前，帮助人敏锐地校准认知、梳理心智的日常运转。 ### [01:52:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6763s) 寻求心理咨询与“最英国式”的偏见特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）谈到，人往往很难察觉自己如何在岁月中逐渐向各种心理与生理的限制妥协，甚至演变成一种下意识的条件反射——就像玩抓牌游戏“Snap”一样，事情一旦发生，自己甚至来不及思考就直接产生反应。尽管他读了大量的心理学书籍并深感着迷，但他意识到书本内容过于宽泛，没有一本书能具体解答“特雷弗·诺亚到底是谁”。于是，他决定踏入诊室，试图解开自己内心的拼图。主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及他第一次走进咨询室并告诉朋友时的感受，特别是在心理健康污名化严重的 2015 年前后。特雷弗回忆道，当时身边的每个人听到他去心理咨询，第一反应都是惊诧地质问：“为什么？你出什么毛病了？”（"What's wrong?"）。其中最令他难忘的遭遇来自媒体。他曾接受一家偏保守派的英国报纸采访（他推测可能是《每日电讯报》The Daily Telegraph）。负责采访的是一位言谈举止极其考究、谈吐优雅的年长英国女士。对方十分尖锐地发问：“你一直很公开地谈论自己接受心理治疗的事情，你现在还在去吗？”特雷弗回答“是的”。对方随即追问：“为什么？你有什么毛病？”特雷弗反问她是否去过，那位女士傲然回答：“我不需要。”特雷弗耐心解释每个人都能从心理治疗中获益，这位女士却断然表示：“我恕难认同。我认为当今世界蔓延的这种‘心理治疗化’倾向完全是多余的，有时候你只需要咬牙忍受，然后继续生活（take it and move on）。”特雷弗感叹道，这简直是他这辈子听过“最英国式的回答”（"the most British thing I've ever heard in my life"）。 - 2015 年特雷弗开始向身边坦承自己接受心理治疗时，公众普遍将寻求心理帮助等同于“出了严重的毛病”。 - 英国保守派媒体采访者的态度生动折射了传统社会对心理治疗的抵触：提倡冷酷克制、硬抗过去（stiff upper lip），将现代心理反思视为无病呻吟。 --- ### [01:54:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6889s) 心理咨询的去标签化：古老智慧与日常倾听特雷弗深入剖析了心理咨询背后的污名化机制。他指出，人们所抗拒的其实是“心理治疗”（Therapy）这个被过度形式化、甚至被狭隘地与“精神崩溃”、“心理残疾”绑定的医学标签；然而心理治疗所做的事情，在本质上不仅是每个人必需的，而且在日常生活中早已被普遍接纳。当一个人在漫长疲惫的一天结束后，躺在床上与伴侣倾诉职场的压力与是否该辞职的疑虑时，这就是一种心理治疗；当你在吧台前向酒保倾吐苦水，或是坐在理发椅上向发型师碎碎念时，同样也是心理治疗的形式。这种支持机制在有色人种和古老文明中更是早已有之。在非洲传统文化中，村落的“长者议事”扮演的正是这一角色：如果某人遇到了生活困境、夫妻争吵或家庭纠纷，便会去向部落的长者倾诉；长者基于数代传承的智慧，以及对当事人从小到大几十年的了解，给出极具针对性的疏导与建议。特雷弗幽默地指出，语言的形式往往决定了人们的偏见：如果你对别人说“我去接受心理治疗”，别人会投来怀疑的眼光；但如果你换个说法——“我每周去向一位受人敬重的智慧长者请教建议”，或者在其他文化里说“我去见一位在精神上理解我大脑运转的导师”，大家就会交口称赞：“太棒了，你确实应该听听长者的智慧。”归根结底，心理咨询从来不是为了宣判一个人“彻底坏掉了”，而是为了让人能够认清并接纳自己身上的那些裂痕（"understanding our cracks"）。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 心理支持的日常与传统形式 accDescr: 展示心理咨询在去标签化后的各种人类共有支持网络 subgraph Formal["现代形式化概念"] A["心理治疗 / Therapy （常被误解为仅针对精神崩溃）"] end subgraph Culture["传统文化智慧"] B["非洲长者倾诉制度 基于代际智慧与宗族了解"] C["精神导师与智者咨询"] end subgraph Daily["现代生活场景"] D["伴侣夜间床头倾诉"] E["向挚友倾吐工作压力"] F["酒保与发型师的日常对话"] end Formal -.->|"本质相同：理解裂痕而非宣判损坏"| Culture Formal -.->|"本质相同：情绪宣泄与复原"| Daily ``` --- ### [01:57:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7041s) 从“理智分析”到“允许感受”：男性的情感困境当史蒂文询问特雷弗是否通过心理治疗看清了自己的裂痕时，特雷弗给出了一个深刻的剖析：他的障碍从来不是“理论上”或“智识上”的不理解。事实上，他在理性分析层面甚至“擅长过了头”。无论是面对生活冲突还是自己的情绪失控，他都能像分析师一样头头是道地拆解前因后果：“刚才之所以爆发，是因为某件事被反复触发，在那个临界点上我达到了耐受极限，因此产生了这种反应机制……”然而治疗师让他意识到，这种过度发达的智力防御恰恰掩盖了他对真实感受的表达——他极少直接承认：“我感到悲伤”、“我感到愤怒”。在治疗的引导下，特雷弗才开始踏上一场充满挑战但也充满喜悦的旅程：学习如何去“感受”而不是去“思考”。他开始直面那些细微而沉重的情绪颗粒度——疲惫、怨恨、绝望，或是淡淡的忧郁；他开始追溯为何两个不同的人对自己说完全相同的一句话，其中一人的话会带来锥心的刺痛，而另一人却毫无波澜。这种情感表达的缺失在男性群体中尤为严峻。特雷弗和史蒂文谈到，现代男性在面对内心伤痛时，社会所“允许”的排解渠道极为匮乏且畸形：酗酒、发飙、打架、看色情片、自慰或沉溺赌博。男性之间极度恐惧展露脆弱，几乎没有任何一个男人敢正视男性朋友的眼睛说出这样一番真心话： > “兄弟，你刚才那样说真的伤到我了。我知道你觉得我的发型很好笑，但你当着那么多人的面嘲讽它，我很受伤；你对我工作的贬低也刺痛了我。因为我在乎你在我生命中的位置，我希望在你眼里我是特别的，但你刚才的话让我觉得自己微不足道。” 特雷弗指出，男性对这种真情流露感到无比惊恐，因此宁愿选择大吼一声“你他妈惹毛我了”然后朝对方头上挥一拳——因为在这个社会中，暴力与愤怒是被允许的，而脆弱却会被视为奇耻大辱。 --- ### [02:00:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7203s) 成人ADHD确诊与被泛化的流行病学标签谈到心理治疗帮他梳理出的抑郁症与注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）之间的内在联系，特雷弗透露自己是在大约两年前正式确诊了 ADHD。促使他去检查的契机是一位要好的朋友：该朋友确诊 ADHD 后整个人生获得了巨大改变，当朋友向特雷弗描述自己的症状和日常行为模式时，特雷弗惊讶地发现这些特质与自己如出一辙。尽管两人性格截然不同，且这位朋友极其擅长伪装和掩饰（masking）自己的症状以至于外人毫无察觉，但那些内核体验彻底击中了特雷弗。这一契机唤醒了特雷弗深埋的童年记忆。小学时期，学校老师就曾多次向他母亲抱怨，称这个孩子成天注意力涣散、上蹿下跳、“到处乱窜”，强制要求带他去进行精神科评估。当年精神科医生确诊他患有多动症（当时被称为“Hyperactivity”），并严肃交代母亲要注意饮食禁忌、进行相应的生活干预和治疗。然而特雷弗极为虔诚的母亲听完后却挥挥手说：“我们会为他祈祷的，继续往前过日子吧（we'll pray for him, let's keep it moving）。”母亲当年根本不理解精神医学概念，只是将其当作无关紧要的小插曲。直到人到中年，特雷弗才猛然意识到：“原来当年那一切全都是真的。” 为了获得严谨的结果，特雷弗经历了一整套完整的临床评估流程——历经多次面诊、多模态综合测试，绝非网络上粗制滥造的趣味心理测验。在此基础上，特雷弗对当今社会的流行病学词汇泛化表达了深切的忧虑：就像大众在讨论 AI 等前沿概念时容易将其扁平化一样，心理学名词也正在被严重口水化。如今满大街的人动辄把“我有 ADHD”挂在嘴边：“我看电影坚持不过 10 分钟，我有 ADHD”、“我又忘带钥匙了，我绝对有 ADHD”。特雷弗直言，一个人完全可能只是单纯健忘或注意力短暂，绝不意味着就患有临床意义上的神经发育障碍，这种随意的自我诊断反而掩盖了真正患者所面临的真实困境。 ### [02:02:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7327s) 警惕社交媒体的标签化：ADHD 的个体差异与确诊 Trevor 指出，注意力短暂并不等同于患有 ADHD，人们可能表现出各种注意力问题，但这绝不意味着每个人都患有同样的心理障碍。即使同样被确诊为 ADHD，每个人的具体表现也是千差万别的：有些人表现为注意力不集中（inattentive），有些人表现为多动（hyperactive），有些人通过后天摸索建立了一套应对机制，而有些人则毫无招架之力；此外，ADHD 在男性和女性身上的外在表征也往往大不相同。他特别提醒大家警惕社交媒体上的泛化倾向，尤其是像 TikTok 这类平台上充斥着大量快餐式的科普：“嗨，教你如何应对你的 ADHD！”在 Trevor 看来，大家开始公开讨论心理健康固然是一件好事，但不应该急于给自己贴标签，更不能理所当然地认为所有人患上的都是同一种版本的 ADHD，或是以为所有人都适用完全相同的治疗方案。回溯自己的经历，Trevor 透露他大约是在三四年前才正式确诊 ADHD 的。这个诊断成为了他重新审视自我内心世界的重要转折点。 - ADHD 的表现形式高度因人而异，涵盖注意力涣散、躯体多动等不同侧面，且男女症状表现常有显著差异。 - 社交媒体将复杂的神经多样性疾病高度简化和泛标签化，忽视了病理的多样性与个体应对方式的独特性。 - Trevor 自身的 ADHD 确诊时间大约在三到四年前（约在 2020 至 2021 年前后）。 --- ### [02:02:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7379s) 无法掌控的注意力与“卡住的镜头”：ADHD 如何引发抑郁主持人 Steven Bartlett 提到，虽然他以前听说过这类说法，但 Trevor 是他采访过的第一位明确表示“自己的抑郁症与 ADHD 深度挂钩”的人，并询问这种关联在大脑中究竟是如何运作和显现的。Trevor 解释道，在确诊之前他对此一无所知，但如今他深刻理解了自己大脑的底层运作方式：本质上，是他“失去了自主选择将注意力投放在何处的控制力”。他要么对不该关注的事物陷入病态的“极度专注”（hyperfocus），要么对真正该关注的重要事务提不起半点专注力。他举了一个生动的例子：比如此时此刻他正坐在房间里与 Steven 对话，如果外面马路上突然有一辆汽车在轰踩油门轰鸣引擎，他的大脑就会瞬间被那阵声响彻底绑架。尽管 Steven 还在对面认真讲话，Trevor 的脑海深处却全被外部噪音占据：“到底是谁在踩油门？谁开着那辆车？外面发生什么事了？那是什么车？听声音像是一台 V6 引擎？还是辆卡车？他们在搞什么鬼？”等到对方一整句话说完，Trevor 往往只能捕捉到末尾的三四个单词，只能靠着仅剩的碎片拼凑推测，假装自己一直在专心倾听。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: ADHD引发抑郁症的思维闭环机制 accDescr: 展示ADHD患者由于注意力失控与过度聚焦，如何从日常琐事反刍演变为存在主义虚无与抑郁发作的循环图。 subgraph Attention_Deficit["注意力失控与过度聚焦"] A["注意力投射失控"] --> B["对特定念头陷入 Hyperfocus"] end subgraph Rumination_Loop["存在主义反刍死循环"] B --> C["机械化日常的反思 （日复一日工作到老死）"] C --> D["镜头过度拉远 （宇宙视角下的微不足道）"] D --> E["强烈虚无感与无意义感 （'这一切究竟有什么意义？'）"] end subgraph Depression_Onset["抑郁发作"] E --> F["陷入思维闭环无法自拔"] F --> G["抑郁情绪全面爆发"] end G -. 反向加剧.-> A ``` 然而，这种注意力失控不仅发生在外部杂音上，更致命的是它会锁定在脑海中的“某个反复出现的念头或消极观念”上，从而直接诱发严重的抑郁症。Trevor 用相机镜头做了一个精妙的比喻：人看待生活就像透过一枚变焦镜头，镜头的作用是通过推拉焦距找到并看清目标。如果变焦拉得太远（Zoom out too wide），视野过于广阔，你根本看不到具体的物体；如果拉得过近（Zoom in too much），视野被极致放大，你看到的只是一片银色或某种纯色色块，同样认不出那是一只水杯。只有焦距恰到好处，你才能清晰地意识到眼前是一个杯子。而 Trevor 大脑的问题就在于，他的“镜头变焦经常被死死卡住”，然后陷入无限的虚无死循环中。 Trevor 给出了一个自己亲身经历的具体范例：某天工作结束后，他心里可能会想：“嗯，今天在演播室的工作挺有意思的。不过我明天还得去上班，后天也得去上班，大后天还得去，然后连着去好多天……好不容易到了周末，周末一过又得回去上班。等等，这不就是无休止的工作日加周末吗？这永远都不会停，一直循环到你活到 90 岁，然后你就两腿一蹬死掉了。等等，那我明天为什么还要去上班？我们到底在干什么？这整套生活模式根本毫无意义！”一旦陷入这个循环，他就再也无法把这个念头从脑海中驱逐出去，只能整个人瘫坐在那里，被强烈的荒谬感和虚无感完全吞没。他感觉整个人类文明和个人存在不过是一记微不足道的转瞬即逝的火花，“一切都毫无意义，一切都是徒劳”。 - 极度专注的双刃剑：在学习新知识（如工业设计、人工智能）时，Hyperfocus 让他废寝忘食地读书、见专家、看视频，在两三个月内成为狂热的行家；但当这种机制作用于悲伤、生活停滞或虚无等负面情绪时，就会演变为灾难性的抑郁死循环。 - 名声的负面放大效应：Steven 补充指出，当一个人功成名就后，周围会充斥着海量毫无意义的外部反馈，大脑若试图解析所有琐碎信息，极易引发心理崩溃。 - 模式识别（Pattern Recognition）的副作用：ADHD 患者通常具备极强的模式识别能力，这是他们能成为优秀脱口秀喜剧演员的天赋，但这双擅长看穿规律的眼睛也往往会让人看穿生活机械重复的冰冷本质，从而陷入存在主义虚无。 --- ### [02:07:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7672s) 调节内心焦距与临在感知练习在被正式确诊为 ADHD 之后，Trevor 终于看清了自己大脑运行的这套“镜头机制”，并摸索出了属于自己的调节方法。在药物治疗方面，他透露自己曾试过一两次处方药，但发现药物对自己做喜剧毫无帮助——喜剧创作恰恰需要思维的跳跃、不可预测性和不受约束的发散状态；此外，他很庆幸自己的生活不需要每天固定时间去办公室打卡上班，因此最终选择不依赖药物，而是依靠纯粹的认知心理工具来应对。 Trevor 掌握的关键核心是确立“观察者思维”：他学会了跟自己内心对话，清楚地意识到“我是自己思想的观察者，但我并不等同于那些思想本身”。当那种机械重复的虚无感再次袭来，大脑叫嚣着“这一切毫无意义”时，他会在内心回应它：“是的，如果从宏观宇宙的尺度看，它的确毫无意义。但是，除非你把镜头拉近一点（zoom in）。”一旦把镜头焦距拉回到现实的细微之处，生活的一切瞬间就会变成无与伦比的存在：“眼前正在与你交谈的这个人，这次对话就是你人生中最重要、最有意义的一场对话；来自朋友的一个拥抱，就是你这一刻所能体验到的最珍贵的事物；正在吃的一顿饭，去细细品味那些食材在味蕾上的碰撞，感受味觉本身的奇妙。” 对于陷入焦虑或抑郁循环的 ADHD 患者，Trevor 分享了一套行之有效的行为疗法技巧——“临在感知与命名练习”（Noticing / Grounding Practice）。当你感到被负面思维死死缠住时，走上街头，逼迫自己去认真看身边的具体事物，并大声把它们念出来。尽管一开始这听起来甚至显得很傻：“那是一扇红色的门。那是一个绿色的屋顶。那是一只停在排水沟上的鸽子。那是排水沟。那是一辆开过去的灰色轿车。” Trevor 强调，这种看似机械粗暴的做法具有神奇的大脑重置效果，它能强行打破大脑内部疯狂自转的思维回路，用现实的感官刺激重新激活神经，当你走完一段路时，原本沉重压抑的心境早已烟消云散。 - 不采用药物治疗的原因：处方药物会压制脱口秀表演所需的思维跳跃度与非线性的发散创造力。 - 观察者解离：将自我意识与脑海中的负面念头剥离开，以第三方视角的理性姿态与大脑内的反刍进行辩证对话。 - 宏观虚无与微观意义的转化：宏观拉远看一切终将归零，微观拉近则每一刻的对话、拥抱和食物的滋味都拥有至高无上的现实意义。 - 临在感知的实操动作：外出散步并开口朗读视野中观察到的具体物理对象，以此物理阻断强迫性思维死循环。 --- ### [02:09:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7784s) 生理基础排查法则：在谈论人生意义前先吃饱睡足 Steven 紧接着追问 Trevor，当他深陷在那些无休止的反刍和思维螺旋中时，内心深处是否曾体会到一种彻底的“绝望”（hopelessness）。Trevor 坦言这听起来可能有些不可思议，但他并不太把那种状态完全等同于终极的绝望。随着经验的累积，他发现很多突如其来的随机虚无感，其背后最根本的罪魁祸首其实往往是身体层面的“深度疲劳”（fatigue）。基于此，Trevor 为自己——也为所有正在情绪泥潭中苦苦挣扎的人，尤其是 ADHD 患者——总结出了一套不可撼动的“生理基础自检法则”。他严肃建议，在任由大脑对人生的终极意义、自身所受的苦难展开高深、严肃且痛苦的哲学推演（pontificate）之前，必须首先老老实实问自己四个极度朴素的生理健康问题： 1. **你睡饱了吗？（Have you slept?）** 2. **你好好吃营养健康的食物了吗？（Have you eaten good food?）** 3. **你今天活动活动身体了吗？（Have you moved your body?）** 4. **你有没有花哪怕一点点时间平静地深呼吸？（Have you spent a little time breathing?）** Trevor 直言，只有当你诚实地对以上四个问题全都给出肯定的“是”之后，你才算具备了合法的生理基底，可以继续去苦思冥想人生的大问题；如果其中任何一项给出了否定的回答，那么第一要务就是立刻停止胡思乱想，立刻去睡觉、吃好饭、做运动、调整呼吸。他向听众保证，当你把这些底层的肉体需求全部补足之后，回过头再看，你会震惊地发现，刚才那个仿佛天塌地陷、不可自拔的虚无深渊，在很大程度上竟然已经烟消云散了。紧接着，Trevor 正要笑着展开分享一段自己在陷入那种极端境地时曾发生过的荒谬趣事。 - 情绪危机的生理化归因：将存在主义抑郁与反刍解构为身体发出的疲惫与匮乏信号，避免将生理疲劳误读为精神上的终极绝望。 - 生理自检四要素清单：充足的睡眠、优质的饮食营养、适度的躯体运动以及深度的呼吸调节。 - 认知止损策略：在未满足底层生理需求前，主动禁止大脑进行宏大的哲学悲观主义推演。 ### [02:10:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7856s) 绝望中的反向思考：如果明天生命终结，你今天会做什么？在陷入极度绝望的低谷时，Trevor Noah 会在脑海中产生一种无力感，觉得生活糟糕透顶，不知道活着的意义何在。尽管从未有过自杀的念头，但他常常对人生的本质感到迷茫。在这种状态下，他发展出了一套独特的心智练习：设想如果生命明天就要结束，自己今天究竟会做什么？他的答案极其干脆——去舞台上讲出那个一直不敢讲的尖锐笑话，或者举办一场肆无忌惮、狂欢到底的派对，在离场前向世界比出巨大的中指。每次想到这些离经叛道的举动，Trevor 的脸上都会忍不住泛起微笑。他意识到，这种近乎荒诞的假设实际上是一面镜子，映照出自己在现实生活中被压抑的真实渴望。许多人不知不觉中停止了奔跑、欢笑与呐喊，将自己活成了一个毫无生气的单一脸谱。如果一个人在末日假设中想对父亲破口大骂，本质上说明他从未与父亲建立起健康的沟通与边界；如果想在办公室掀桌子，说明这份工作早已不适合他；如果想通宵狂欢，说明他在现实中严重缺乏乐趣。这种向死而生的反思，反而能以一种负责任的方式，指引人们找回生活中真正缺失的意义。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 绝望反思的心理投射机制 accDescr: 展示从生活陷入绝望到通过末日假设找回内心真实诉求的逻辑演变过程。 subgraph Trap["心理困境"] A["陷入绝望与麻木"] --> B["变成单一压抑的自我"] end subgraph Exercise["末日心智练习"] B --> C["设想生命将在明天终结"] C --> D["允许自己做出极端放纵的抉择"] end subgraph Insight["洞察与重建"] D --> E["投射出现实中压抑的真实需求"] E --> F["设立边界 / 转变方向 / 找回生活意义"] end ``` ### [02:14:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8047s) 二十多岁重逢生父：在未知的血缘中寻找自我的拼图谈及父亲的话题，Trevor 在二十四五岁时与分别多年的瑞士籍亲生父亲重新取得了联系。促使他迈出这一步的关键，是母亲 Patricia 给予他的一句忠告："永远不要低估一个人身上可能掌握着关于你的答案，而那些答案甚至是你都不知道自己所需要的。"父母作为给予生命的一半，其身上的印记往往潜移默化地塑造着子女，若不主动探寻，这些血缘线索便可能永远被埋没。重逢之际，Trevor 感受到的并非恐惧，而是一种对未知的忐忑——彼此还能不能处得来？父亲还记得自己吗？他还喜欢自己吗？在 Trevor 看来，他并不怀疑生父对自己怀有爱意，但他所探寻的是爱意之外更为微妙的东西："有时你认定父母是爱你的，但你不确定他们是否主动选择了你。"当他重新与父亲坐在一起，看到自己身上某些连自己都未曾留意的特质竟然完全源自眼前这个男人时，那种体验兼具了着迷、挫败与释怀。 - **重逢的契机**：母亲告诫他，亲生父母身上携带着塑造你自我的底层信息，面对愿意互动的父母，不应主动放弃解开自我身世谜团的机会。 - **心理状态**：并非对父亲心存恐惧，而是成年后的男子面对一个仅停留在童年记忆中的陌生亲人时的不确定感。 - **爱的本质探讨**：人们常常确信血缘之爱自然存在，但内心深处真正在意的是父母在主观意愿上是否"选择（choosing）"接纳自己。 ### [02:16:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8181s) 从父亲身上目睹的功课：被世人低估的友谊价值尽管生父并未长期陪伴在身边，也没有进行过刻板的言传身教，但 Trevor 依然从他身上汲取到了极为重要的人生智慧。他认为，子女从父母身上学到的大多数道理都不是"教"出来的，而是"看"出来的。在生父身上，他亲眼目睹了维护友谊和构建社群的重要性。父亲年事已高，甚至比母亲年长许多，但步入晚年后身边依然环绕着挚友与所属的社群圈子。Trevor 感慨道，在人类的所有人际关系中，友谊往往处于被低估的尴尬境地——人们总是将血浓于水的亲子关系或誓约绑定的夫妻关系视作核心，因为这两者或多或少带有一种责任或契约性质；唯独友谊，完全建立在毫无利益交换、纯粹自主选择的基础之上。父亲一生维系友谊的姿态，向他证明了拥有超越家庭之外的纯粹联结是多么宝贵。 ### [02:18:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8307s) 母亲的坚韧与毫无遗憾的最后一通电话母亲 Patricia 是 Trevor 整个人生叙事与智慧源泉的核心灵魂。主持人提到了母亲身上惊人的毅力，并谈到许多人在与父母相处时，内心最深沉的恐惧往往是"未能说出口的话"。主持人问 Trevor：如果只能与母亲打一通六十秒的告别电话，并且深知这将是最后一通通话，他会选择对母亲说什么？ Trevor 毫不犹豫地回答，他的话只会是："我爱你，谢谢你，谢谢你，谢谢你，我爱你……真的就只有这些。"他坦言自己非常幸运，因为在平时的相处中，只要内心有所感触，他就会毫无保留地向母亲倾诉，彼此之间几乎没有未尽之言。如今的他们依然保持着极为亲密而纯粹的沟通：他会开着车载着母亲去四处挑选母鸡，为她照料那群"小鸡战队"，母子俩就在兜风的旅途上有说有笑，畅谈人生，把每一次相处都过得坦荡而充实。 ### [02:20:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8421s) 陪伴母亲的日常与超越二元论的父母观特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）谈起自己与母亲相处时那些最质朴的“无事时刻”（nothing moments）：没有预设的议程，也没有任何非做不可的事情。他往往只是悄然融入母亲的日常生活步调中，比如看到她在花园里忙碌，他就静静站在一旁看她打理花草，听她絮叨、彼此交谈、分享琐事。如果真的要给母亲打通生命中的最后一通电话，他不会安排繁复的言辞，而只会反复诉说：“谢谢你，谢谢你，我非常爱你。非常感谢你，我爱你，我爱你，谢谢你。” 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提到，母亲当年遭遇继父枪击却奇迹生还的惨烈经历，从某种意义上过早地赋予了特雷弗一种常人难及的生命透视力。当谈及如何延续母亲的“精神遗产”（Legacy）时，特雷弗笑称母亲必定会反驳并挑战他，要求他不仅是延续，而是必须“超越并改良她的遗产”。特雷弗直言母亲固然极其卓越，但母亲自己总归咎于上帝的恩典而非凡人之力。特雷弗在成年后对母子关系最深刻的体悟在于：接纳母亲也是一个存在缺陷的普通人。身为父母，她在特雷弗身上必然留下了某些必须由特雷弗成年后独自消化和处理的心灵伤口。他指出，现代人常常陷入一种极其幼稚的“非黑即白”二元思维，试图简单粗暴地将父母划归为“完美的父母”或“糟糕透顶的父母”；但现实的真相往往是，父母在某些方面表现得不可思议地伟大，而在另一些方面则可能做得非常糟糕。只要父母深爱着孩子，他们就已经在竭尽所能，即便这依然伴随着不可避免的失败。母亲对特雷弗和弟弟们始终如一的要求只有一条：“一代要比一代做得更好。” ### [02:22:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8538s) 关于为人父的考量：被选择与被顾及当被问及未来是否打算成为一名父亲时，特雷弗坦承自己的想法一直在摇摆不定。有时他拉远宏观镜头审视这个世界，会陷入迟疑：“你真的要把孩子带到这样一个糟糕的世界上来吗？”但随即他又会反思，人类历史上任何一个时代对身处其中的人而言都充满残酷，这并不能成为拒绝繁衍的绝对理由。转向微观时，他又会拷问自己究竟能给孩子带来什么，甚至担忧自己身上的注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）会不会遗传给下一代、让孩子承受成长之痛；但换个角度，ADHD也并非全是坏事。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 传统育儿观念与特雷弗育儿哲学的对比 accDescr: 对比传统观念中孩子欠父母恩情，与特雷弗强调给予孩子被选择感与被顾及感的思维模式。 subgraph Traditional["传统亲子观念"] A["将孩子带入世界"] --> B["预设孩子亏欠父母恩情"] B --> C["忽视孩子的个体意志与感受"] end subgraph TrevorPhilosophy["特雷弗的育儿核心"] D["选择带孩子来到世界"] --> E["主动赋予两大核心要素"] E --> F["被选择感 (Being Chosen)"] E --> G["被顾及感 (Being Considered)"] end ``` 如果未来真的拥有孩子，特雷弗认为自己必须承诺给予对方两样最核心的基石： - **被选择感（Being Chosen）**：许多人仅仅是在生物学意义上生下了孩子，却未曾在内心深处真正“选择”接纳他们成为独立的个体。 - **被顾及感（Being Considered）**：无数父母常常理直气壮地对孩子宣称“是我把你带到这个世界上的”，特雷弗反驳道，事实恰恰相反，正因为是父母单方面将孩子带到了世间，父母才更欠孩子一份设身处地的顾及与考量。特雷弗借用了主持《每日秀》（The Daily Show）及面对人生重大挑战时领悟到的心态法则：若你在一开始就清醒地预设这件事极其艰难险阻甚至“糟糕透顶”，你反而会在其中体会到诸多惊喜并享受过程；但若你一开始就抱持着虚幻的完美滤镜，认为育儿全是甜蜜与回报，那么日常生活中的鸡毛蒜皮与挫败感必将让你痛不欲生。 ### [02:23:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8639s) 亲密关系与新书《Into the Uncut Grass》回忆起主持《每日秀》的日日夜夜，特雷弗形容那是一场争分夺秒的生存战役，他和搭档蜗居在公寓里，没日没夜地连轴转，浪漫的亲密关系在那段岁月里完全没有容身之地，这是他当时为了事业不得不付出的巨大代价。而如今的他，生活状态已然转变。他提出了一个耐人寻味的悖论：正是因为自己越来越能够坦然接受“也许此生终将孤独一人无伴侣”的设定（依赖深厚的友谊与社群支持，而非传统孤立），他反而变得更有能力进入一段健康的恋爱。他不再把亲密关系视作一个必须满足自己一切情感空缺的索取机器，而是思考自己究竟能为另一半带去怎样的价值。史蒂芬对特雷弗的写作才华给予了高度评价，称自传《天生有罪》（Born a Crime）虽然讲述的是特雷弗在南非的独特成长史，却通过他对母爱的刻画、对身份认同的追寻以及向人生巅峰攀登的智慧，引发了全球读者的普遍共鸣。随后两人重点聚焦于特雷弗即将于10月8日出版的全彩插画新书《进入未修剪的草丛》（Into the Uncut Grass）。特雷弗特意强调，这本书虽然深刻，但大家千万不要忽略它的“诙谐童趣”（silly）。史蒂芬认为这本书承袭了《男孩、鼹鼠、狐狸和马》（The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse）以及《小王子》（The Little Prince）的文学底色，老少皆宜： - 它既适合给孩子朗读，也能深深击中三四十岁成年人的内心。 - 特雷弗创作该书的初衷，是希望引导读者重新找回孩童般的纯真好奇心与想象力，在被成人世界的种种创伤击垮之前，重新记忆起最本质的自我。 - 全书的核心母题紧扣“连接”（Connection）与“爱”。 ### [02:26:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8802s) 人生最低谷与日式“金缮”哲学的治愈隐喻节目进入尾声的标志性交接传统：上一位匿名嘉宾给特雷弗留下了一个盲盒问题——“请谈谈你人生中的最低谷是什么？你是如何战胜它的？你从这段经历中学到了什么？” 特雷弗坦言，他人生最至暗的时刻毫无疑问就是母亲被继父开枪击中头部的那一天。但他拒绝用“傲慢的口吻”宣称自己已经彻底“战胜”（overcome）了那场创伤。他反问史蒂芬：一个人真的能够彻底战胜这类创伤吗？“克服”到底意味着什么？是意味着你再也想不起它，还是它再也不会刺痛你？他认为心理上的重创不同于攀登实体的高山，它没有清晰的终点线，因此无法被量化。特雷弗选择对待自己的方式是“给予自己宽容”（give myself grace），承认这是一场终身未竟的功课。为了形象地解释这种与创伤共存的心态，特雷弗分享了他近期去日本旅行时学到的一门古老修复艺术——金缮（Kintsugi）： - **破碎的器物**：当名贵的陶瓷、盘子或花瓶碎裂在地，工匠并不会试图掩盖裂纹、用胶水草草粘合掩人耳目。 - **金漆的修补**：工匠运用天然大漆混合金粉对碎片进行黏合黏缀，将断裂的接缝转化为醒目的金色脉络。 - **升华的残缺**：最终诞生的器物，不仅不掩饰曾经历过的破碎与摧毁，反而因为金色的伤痕而呈现出比碎裂前更加震撼夺目的美感。特雷弗借由金缮指出，对人生的创伤而言，所谓“被治愈”或“战胜”，绝非假装裂痕从未发生，而是接纳破碎并与之重组，将那些浸透痛楚的疤痕化为生命中最厚重的金线。 ### [02:29:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8972s) 日本“金继”艺术与拥抱破碎的裂痕特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）谈到了日本传统的“金继”（Kintsugi，金缮）工艺。当他初次了解到这种工艺时，内心受到了极大的震撼，这彻底颠覆了他对“克服逆境”与“自我疗愈”的固有认知。金继所传达的核心并非“在经历变故前我们是多么完美”，而是让人学会以一种全新的尊严与美感去展现那些裂纹。特雷弗将现在的自己比作一件被反复摔裂过的陶瓷。正因为生命中拥有爱、遇到了优秀的心理治疗师、结识了善良的朋友，再加上自己持之以恒的内心探索，他得以找到方法将“金漆”注入那些裂缝之中，从而在破碎的经历中发掘出比以往更多的美感。他坦言，如今每次看到金继器物，感知到每一件器皿背后所承载的人与生命故事，内心都会泛起强烈的共鸣与感动。 --- ### [02:30:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9040s) “橡皮擦测试”与对苦难神圣化的哲学驳斥史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）借由金继的话题提出了最后一个兼具深度与难度的问题。他提到此前对话过的嘉宾莫·乔达特（Mo Gawdat，其痛失爱子），莫在节目中曾提及所谓的“橡皮擦测试”（Eraser Test）：如果面前有一个按钮，按下去就能彻底抹去人生中所经历的那些极端痛苦与创伤，你会按吗？史蒂芬向特雷弗发问：“如果现在摆在你面前这样一个按钮，可以抹去你母亲当年被枪击的惨剧，你会按下它吗？” 特雷弗毫不犹豫地回答：“会，我一定会按。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 苦难叙事与自主重写叙事的哲学对比 accDescr: 对比社会常有的苦难神圣化观念与特雷弗倡导的铅笔测试主体性逻辑 subgraph S1["社会常规观念：苦难神圣化 (橡皮擦测试困境)"] A["遭遇严重创伤 / 暴力"] --> B["强加解释：'一切发生皆有原因'"] B --> C["被动认同苦难塑造了现在的我"] C --> D["强迫受害者感恩创伤与风暴"] end subgraph S2["特雷弗的哲学视角：铅笔测试 (自主书写)"] E["面对已发生的残酷事实"] --> F["拒绝美化苦难：幸存不代表苦难是必需的"] F --> G["拿起'铅笔 / 钢笔'主导后续叙事"] G --> H["疗愈自我，选择自己成为什么样的人"] end ``` 特雷弗阐述了他与许多人持有根本分歧的底层哲学观点： - **拒绝苦难合理化（Valorization of Trauma）**：社会经常为了让受害者摆脱无力感，或者受宗教观念影响，极力宣扬“一切的发生都是有原因的”（It happened to you for a reason）。例如对被虐待的儿童、重大车祸或恐怖袭击的幸存者说“正是这些遭遇铸就了今天的你”。特雷弗认为这掩盖了残酷的另一面——无数人其实被苦难彻底击垮，根本没能挺过来。 - **被剥夺的另一种人生可能性**：人们往往忽视了如果创伤从未发生，受害者本可以成为一个更快乐、伤痕更少、负担更轻、对他人也更温和的人。“挺过风暴并不意味着你应该渴望留住这场风暴。” - **从“橡皮擦测试”到“铅笔测试”（The Pencil Test）**：“橡皮擦测试”会将人逼入死角，要么让人觉得自己必须割舍一部分自我，要么逼迫人强行去认同并接纳邪恶与创伤。特雷弗提出应当将其替换为“铅笔、钢笔或记号笔测试”——关键不在于抹去历史，而在于“在经历创伤后，你选择用笔写下怎样的后半段故事”。 - **旗帜鲜明地否定邪恶的价值**：特雷弗重申，如果真有按钮，他会毫不犹豫抹去母亲中枪的悲剧、自己的 ADHD、南非的种族隔离制度（Apartheid）。“我绝不会说‘留着种族隔离吧，史蒂芬，因为没有它我就不会坐在这里跟你交谈’。不，我会抹掉它！你幸存下来了，我为你感到骄傲，但这绝不意味着你本就该经历那些苦难。” --- ### [02:35:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9322s) 告别孤独：在爱与社群中寻找归属感史蒂芬对特雷弗的坦诚、幽默、谦逊与无与伦比的真实性表达了敬意，并极力推荐特雷弗在 Spotify 上的播客节目《What Now? with Trevor Noah》，称特雷弗拥有剖析人类心智与情感的罕见天赋。在对谈尾声，特雷弗反过来关切地叮嘱史蒂芬，不要再让自己长期陷入过度孤独的工作状态中： - **孤独不是安全的避风港**：虽然独自一人往往让人感到习惯和舒服，但走入真实的人际连接、找到真正的归属感（Belonging）所带来的回报是不可估量的。 - **警惕基于负面情绪建立的社群**：当今社交媒体上盛行一种畸形的归属感——人们通过“共同憎恨”聚集在一起（一起网暴、一起厌女、一起痛恨某个音乐人）。特雷弗指出，这种基于仇恨构建的共同体毫无持续性，最终只会把人吞噬殆尽；唯有基于共同热爱的事物建立的联结才是真正的魔法。 - **友谊对亲密关系的减负作用**：特雷弗引用多项研究与元分析指出，拥有牢固朋友圈的人往往拥有更健康的亲密关系。当一个人把所有的期望、抱负、恐惧与挫败感全部倾倒在伴侣一人身上时，关系迟早会走向崩溃；而丰富坚实的社群支持，恰恰能为亲密关系有效减负。 ### [02:38:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9497s) 坚实友谊对亲密关系的滋养与对谈尾声特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）对维系深厚友谊的意义进行了最后的强调与叮嘱。他特别指出，拥有深厚的朋友关系并不会削弱或替代爱情，反而会让人的恋爱和伴侣关系变得更为健康与坚固——“顺便说一句，友谊并不是爱情的替代品；当你维系并拥有一段坚实的友谊时，你的恋爱关系其实会变得更好”。为此，他强烈鼓励对方付诸实践，去用心经营身边的挚友关系。主持人对此深受触动并当场郑重承诺自己一定会去践行这一建议。特雷弗欣慰地回应道“这一定会非常棒”，两人随后在真挚、温暖且充满感激的道谢与致意声中结束了整场长谈，背景音乐缓缓响起，为这场深入探讨心理健康、创伤、成长与人际联结的对话画上了圆满的句号。 ## Notable quotes > [02:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=134s) 选择朋友，就是在主动挑选那些将要继续雕刻你灵魂的人。 — 特雷弗·诺亚 > [26:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1593s) 每一种天赋都是诅咒，每一种诅咒也是天赋。 — 特雷弗·诺亚 > [26:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1593s) 这不是我的工作，我不需要保护所有人，他们都是成年人，有能力自己解决分歧。 — 特雷弗·诺亚 > [01:09:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4192s) 你虽然在那里什么都没做，但你周围那些奔跑着、正在对人生有所作为的人，会激励你去做更多事情。你不可能身处在一群不断前行的人群中，自己却不想迈步。 — 特雷弗的母亲 > [01:17:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4645s) 人尽皆知其实可以极其孤独，因为这意味着你几乎在任何地方都无法真正独处。 — 特雷弗·诺亚 > [01:20:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4818s) 我们以为自己热爱主题公园是因为过山车，其实真正的原因是，它迫使我们作为朋友站在队伍里整整一小时，仅仅是待在一起聊聊天。你什么也做不了，只能彼此陪伴。 — 特雷弗·诺亚 > [01:30:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5426s) 那些讨厌你的人，你走之后会喜欢你吗？不会。既然你走他们不喜欢你，你留下来他们也不喜欢你，那你为什么不留下来？反正我挺喜欢跟你一起工作的，所以留下来吧。 — 丹·阿米拉 > [02:07:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7672s) 我是自己思想的观察者，但我并不等同于那些思想本身。 — 特雷弗·诺亚 > [02:14:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8047s) 永远不要低估一个人身上可能掌握着关于你的答案，而那些答案甚至是你都不知道自己所需要的。 — 特雷弗的母亲 > [02:30:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9040s) 挺过风暴并不意味着你应该渴望留住这场风暴。 — 特雷弗·诺亚 > [02:30:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9040s) 我绝不会说‘留着种族隔离吧，史蒂芬，因为没有它我就不会坐在这里跟你交谈’。不，我会抹掉它！你幸存下来了，我为你感到骄傲，但这绝不意味着你本就该经历那些苦难。 — 特雷弗·诺亚 > [02:38:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9497s) 顺便说一句，友谊并不是爱情的替代品；当你维系并拥有一段坚实的友谊时，你的恋爱关系其实会变得更好。 — 特雷弗·诺亚 ## Mentioned 特雷弗·诺亚 (Trevor Noah), 史蒂芬·巴特利特 (Steven Bartlett), 帕特丽夏 (Patricia), 阿贝尔 (Abel), 加博尔·马泰 (Gabor Maté), 乔恩·斯图尔特 (Jon Stewart), 丹·阿米拉 (Dan Amira), 大卫·基布卡 (David Kibuuka), 约瑟夫·奥皮奥 (Joseph Opio), 丹尼尔·卡尼曼 (Daniel Kahneman), 莫·乔达特 (Mo Gawdat), 每日秀 (The Daily Show), 天生有罪 (Born a Crime), 进入未修剪的草丛 (Into the Uncut Grass), What Now? with Trevor Noah, 使命召唤：战区 (Call of Duty: Warzone), 堡垒之夜 (Fortnite), Reddit, 微软 (Microsoft), 格莱美奖 (Grammys), 艾美奖 (Emmy Awards), 卫报 (The Guardian), BBC, 经济学人 (The Economist), 半岛电视台 (Al Jazeera), 金缮 / 金继 (Kintsugi), 宋飞正传 (Seinfeld), 小王子 (The Little Prince), 男孩、鼹鼠、狐狸和马 (The Boy, the Mole, the Fox and the Horse) ## Video description Trevor Noah is a comedian and former host of the satirical news programme, ‘The Daily Show’. He is also host of the podcast ‘What Now? with Trevor Noah’ and author of the best-selling book, ‘Born A Crime: Stories from a South African Childhood’. 00:00 Intro 02:15 Trevor's Childhood 05:19 What Do People Need To Know To Understand Trevor 07:36 What Was Apartheid Like For Trevor? 11:29 I Was Born Ilegal 16:34 Trevor's Mother's Troubled Relationship With New Partner 23:50 Trevor's Mum's Shooting 26:33 Being Hyper-Empathetic 31:22 What Happened On The Day Of The Shooting 34:44 The Miracle That Saved My Mother 36:40 Why Didn't Your Stepdad Go To Prison? 38:57 Is Trevor Still Angry? 42:59 Have You Forgiven Him? 43:45 How Does Past Trauma Affect Trevor Today? 45:41 Men's Mental Health & Loneliness Epidemic 51:05 Why Are Men Struggling 59:38 How Can We Men Be Helped? 01:03:30 Belonging 01:09:11 How Do You Spot A Bad Friend? 01:12:19 Trevor's Work Ethic 01:16:00 Does Money And Fame Guide Your Decisions? 01:20:18 We're All Human & Need The Same Thing 01:25:07 Death Threats When Starting The Daily Show 01:29:39 The Worst Day On The Daily Show 01:35:21 Trevor's Struggle With Depression 01:41:14 Why Did Trevor Leave The Daily Show 01:47:17 You Don't Know What You've Got Until It's Gone 01:51:17 Trevor's Therapy Journey 01:59:56 Trevor's ADHD Diagnosis 02:02:59 The Link Between ADHD And Depression 02:09:44 Did You Ever Feel Hopeless? 02:14:12 Trevor Reuniting With His Father 02:16:21 What Lesson Did You Learn From Your Father? 02:19:00 Your Mum 02:19:07 What Would Trevor Say In His Last Phone Call To His Mother 02:22:18 Trevor's Thoughts On Fatherhood 02:23:59 Trevor's Romantic Relationships 02:26:42 The Lowest Point Of Your Life 02:30:40 Would Trevor Erase What Happened To His Mother? Follow Trevor: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/h7Y99Ai0GNb Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/OGcQnqk0GNb You can purchase Trevor’s book, ‘Into the Uncut Grass’, here: https://amzn.to/484dwdJ 🌟 Get access to exclusive Diary of a CEO content: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGq-a57w-aPwyi3pW7XLiHw/join Get your hands on the brand new Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards here: https://appurl.io/iUUJeYn25v Follow me: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Linkedin Ads - https://www.linkedin.com/doac24 [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY)

Source quotes

[2:14] 特雷弗·诺亚: 选择朋友，就是在主动挑选那些将要继续雕刻你灵魂的人。 [26:33] 特雷弗·诺亚: 每一种天赋都是诅咒，每一种诅咒也是天赋。 [26:33] 特雷弗·诺亚: 这不是我的工作，我不需要保护所有人，他们都是成年人，有能力自己解决分歧。 [69:52] 特雷弗的母亲: 你虽然在那里什么都没做，但你周围那些奔跑着、正在对人生有所作为的人，会激励你去做更多事情。你不可能身处在一群不断前行的人群中，自己却不想迈步。 [77:25] 特雷弗·诺亚: 人尽皆知其实可以极其孤独，因为这意味着你几乎在任何地方都无法真正独处。 [80:18] 特雷弗·诺亚: 我们以为自己热爱主题公园是因为过山车，其实真正的原因是，它迫使我们作为朋友站在队伍里整整一小时，仅仅是待在一起聊聊天。你什么也做不了，只能彼此陪伴。 [90:26] 丹·阿米拉: 那些讨厌你的人，你走之后会喜欢你吗？不会。既然你走他们不喜欢你，你留下来他们也不喜欢你，那你为什么不留下来？反正我挺喜欢跟你一起工作的，所以留下来吧。 [127:52] 特雷弗·诺亚: 我是自己思想的观察者，但我并不等同于那些思想本身。 [134:07] 特雷弗的母亲: 永远不要低估一个人身上可能掌握着关于你的答案，而那些答案甚至是你都不知道自己所需要的。 [150:40] 特雷弗·诺亚: 挺过风暴并不意味着你应该渴望留住这场风暴。 [150:40] 特雷弗·诺亚: 我绝不会说‘留着种族隔离吧，史蒂芬，因为没有它我就不会坐在这里跟你交谈’。不，我会抹掉它！你幸存下来了，我为你感到骄傲，但这绝不意味着你本就该经历那些苦难。 [158:17] 特雷弗·诺亚: 顺便说一句，友谊并不是爱情的替代品；当你维系并拥有一段坚实的友谊时，你的恋爱关系其实会变得更好。

Source quotes

[5:19] Trevor Noah: I look at these ingredients which aren't necessarily the best in choosing your starting points, but then there was a series of lucky breaks. [16:10] Trevor Noah: When you're a child, your parents are the most powerful beings... and if you ever have the terrible fortune of seeing your mother being violently harmed, it rocks your fundamental understanding of what the world is. [23:50] Trevor Noah: I'll be the kind of person who will tell you when we should leave a party before a fight breaks out... I can feel energy, not like woo-woo, but I start noticing people are not having as much fun as they were 20 minutes ago. [41:45] Trevor Noah: In moments, yes... but the levels of my forgiveness won't reach my mom's because she was in love with him... I think I feel sorry for him, I think I've learned to come to terms with it, but like pure forgiveness, I'd be lying to you if I'm like 'yeah, I've forgiven.'... Sometimes I go, 'No, actually, I don't.' [50:44] Trevor Noah: Guys always need the third thing... It's like, 'Hey, what are you doing on Saturday? You want to go fishing?' It's like, why do we need the fishing? Why can't we just sit like this and be like, 'Hey, what's happening in your heart, Stephen?' [72:19] Trevor Noah: Friendships are like little piggy banks. You're putting money in and they're putting money in yours, and every now and again, you get to break them open and enjoy what's inside. That's literally my success now. [85:07] Trevor Noah: You genuinely cannot choose what's going to happen to you, but you almost definitely can choose who you're going to handle it with. [95:00] Trevor Noah: I didn't realize at the time that the depression that I was suffering from was ADHD depression... I didn't know that ADHD can do that to you... as a byproduct of untreated ADHD. [101:14] Trevor Noah: I took for granted that the pandemic was a moment where many people were forced to be at home... I realized I had made my life about work and I had made everything else secondary. [115:03] Trevor Noah: I don't think it's about saying that we're broken. It's just about like understanding our cracks. [129:43] Trevor Noah: I think of all the things that I would do with like giant middle fingers on my way out, and the smile that it brings to my face... every time it makes me realize that that's all I should be trying to do. [134:07] Patricia Noah: Don't take for granted the answers a person can hold of you that you may not even know you needed for yourself. [138:27] Trevor Noah: I love you, thank you, thank you, thank you, thank you... genuinely that's pretty much it because I'm really lucky that I've said and I continue to try to say most of what I should to my mom. [140:26] Patricia Noah: be better than the last [150:40] Trevor Noah: Yes, I would.

Original transcript

[0:00] it felt like life was meaningless I [0:03] would think to myself I hate this this [0:05] sucks I don't know what I want to do [0:08] with life anymore and that's sometimes [0:10] where the depression would kick in but I [0:12] didn't realize that the depression that [0:14] I was suffering from was untreated ADHD [0:17] depression and so I've learned rules now [0:19] for myself and for anyone out there if [0:21] you are suffering from this ask yourself [0:22] a few simple questions Mr Trevor Noah [0:25] the former host of The Daily Show he [0:27] gained a massive following for his [0:28] humorous yet incisive take on politics [0:30] and Society I was born to a black mother [0:32] and a white father in South Africa at a [0:34] time when it was illegal in the country [0:36] they were scared the police were going [0:37] to take me away and then my mother met [0:39] my stepfather and it became an unsafe [0:42] household your mother had been shot [0:43] point blank in the head by this man yeah [0:46] and from that day onwards Everything [0:48] Changes you arrive in America to pursue [0:50] your dream as being this comedian you [0:52] are very hardworking to say the least [0:53] which led to you being the host of The [0:55] Daily Show but it didn't go so well at [0:56] first it was absolutely terrible people [0:59] would just be like go back to where you [1:01] came from death threat it was really [1:03] hard but I persevered and I would get [1:05] home at 9:00 p.m. work until midnight [1:06] get back to the office at 7 the next day [1:08] and do it all over again and then The [1:10] Daily Show went on to become a smash hit [1:11] but was the cost of it I had made my [1:14] life about work and I had made [1:15] everything else secondary and to be [1:17] honest with you a lot of people are [1:18] doing this we've neglected connection [1:20] and I think we're experiencing a [1:22] generation of men in particular were not [1:24] just isolated but not practiced in the [1:26] art of connecting and it's affecting [1:28] Society now so those men that asked [1:29] struggling where do they need to start [1:31] this is a lesson that I've learned if [1:32] you're struggling with this so [1:38] you this has always blown my mind a [1:40] little bit 53% of you that listen to the [1:43] show regularly haven't yet subscribed to [1:45] the show so could I ask you for a favor [1:47] before we start if you like the show and [1:48] you like what we do here and you want to [1:49] support us the free simple way that you [1:51] can do just that is by hitting the [1:53] Subscribe button and my commitment to [1:54] you is if you do that then I'll do [1:56] everything in my power me and my team to [1:58] make sure that this show is better for [1:59] you every single week we'll listen to [2:01] your feedback we'll find the guest that [2:03] you want me to speak to and we'll [2:05] continue to do what we do thank you so [2:07] [Music] [2:13] much Trevor what are the most important [2:15] things that I need to understand about [2:17] your earliest years to understand the [2:20] man that sits in front of me [2:23] today well that's that's a tough one [2:25] because I I feel like my perception of [2:28] what the most important things are or [2:30] may not be the most important [2:32] things I could say it would be my sense [2:35] of humor and then it might be where the [2:36] sense of humor comes from which might be [2:39] my family or my country it might be [2:41] which schools I went to it might be [2:44] where I've lived or where I've traveled [2:45] to it's a yeah it's it's one of those [2:48] you know if you ever try to break down a [2:51] food or or something that you consume [2:53] and you go like what is the most [2:54] important ingredient what are the [2:55] ingredients that really make it what it [2:57] is it's like is it the crunch is it the [2:59] assd is it the salt is it the fat is it [3:01] what what what is it I I don't know I I [3:04] genuinely don't if I knew then I would [3:06] be able to either create more of me or [3:09] or um or maybe like you know figure out [3:11] which parts I want to tweak but I [3:13] honestly don't know the answer to that [3:14] question I often think of uh everyone [3:17] that I meet but also myself through the [3:18] context of like a I guess a similar [3:21] analogy like a set of ingredients that [3:23] came together that were then put into an [3:24] oven and like right the heat was turned [3:27] on and we were we were baked not to say [3:28] that we can't be changed after that [3:30] moment but um what are those [3:34] ingredients so my mother South African [3:37] and HOSA woman uh my father's Swiss from [3:40] Switzerland but was living in South [3:41] Africa so those are those are the the [3:43] parental ingredients you know my [3:45] grandmother I think is a key ingredient [3:47] because I spent a lot of time with her [3:48] as a young child uh my grandfather was a [3:51] crazy funny man was by polar but we [3:54] didn't know at the time I think we knew [3:56] towards the end of his life but it made [3:58] him wildly entertaining [4:00] um yeah it's it's it's an interesting [4:03] and tough one you know because I because [4:05] I often [4:06] think as much as we're baked to what [4:09] you're [4:10] saying I think that we're baked but then [4:14] we are very [4:15] much a product of the people that we [4:18] then come into contact with you know so [4:20] I think of most people sort of like a [4:22] like a sponge cake like most cakes are [4:24] very basic most of them and then what [4:27] really makes them special is what the [4:29] Baker does to them afterwards you know [4:31] but the fundamental cake is is is pretty [4:34] much the same and I think people are [4:35] like that yeah there's there's certain [4:36] things you know like you the color of [4:38] our skin and tone of voice and all of [4:39] that but then I think it's everyone we [4:41] come into contact with that gives us the [4:43] icing that gives us the the shape that [4:46] gives us the the dynamic texture that [4:48] makes us who we are you know and so I I [4:51] I strangely enough I feel like it's all [4:53] of these people that I was lucky enough [4:55] or unlucky enough to bump into that that [4:58] gave me a little bit of of of that [5:00] texture and shape and I think that's the [5:01] same for everyone you know that's that's [5:04] probably why I'm so um so conscious of [5:08] choosing my friends because I I [5:11] think that's me actively choosing the [5:14] people who are going to keep shaping me [5:15] as as I as I live my [5:18] life I've seen you on TV I've seen you [5:21] all over the place over the last 10 [5:23] years of my life but I had no idea of [5:26] your early context I had no idea and [5:30] it's funny because sometimes you kind of [5:32] see I don't know Domino 35 in the all [5:35] these dominoes that fall but those early [5:36] dominoes I think often lead a lot of [5:38] Clues as to the Domino 35 that we see on [5:41] oh yeah yeah definitely definitely so [5:43] for someone that might not know your [5:44] earliest [5:45] context like I [5:47] didn't what do they what should they [5:49] know to understand you so I mean you [5:52] know first of all I was I was born and [5:54] raised in South Africa right um I was [5:57] born in 1984 so that was you know six [6:01] years before paride ended born to a [6:03] black mother and a white father at a [6:05] time when it was illegal in the country [6:08] um and it was strangely unique you know [6:10] I guess because it was illegal you know [6:12] so so I grew up in a world where I [6:16] didn't see many people like me who had [6:18] my background I I saw some people who [6:20] looked similar to me but they had a [6:21] completely different background you know [6:23] South Africa's racial Dynamics are very [6:24] complicated and sometimes throw people [6:26] off especially like internationally you [6:28] know um um but yeah that I think that's [6:32] that's one of the you know that's that's [6:34] the beginning of me and and then I I [6:38] think you know I look at these [6:40] ingredients which which aren't [6:42] necessarily the best in in in in [6:45] choosing your starting points but then [6:47] there would there was there was a series [6:49] of of Lucky breaks you know the dominoes [6:51] as you say there was a series of Lucky [6:52] breaks so one one of those was atite [6:55] ends you know so apte ends when I'm 6 [6:58] years old and I I always think to myself [7:01] about how much that changes my entire [7:04] life because if if a parts side let's [7:06] say a parts side went for 10 more years [7:09] then now I'm 16 and I I haven't been [7:12] able to go to the schools that I went to [7:15] because you know only white kids were [7:17] allowed to go to them and and you know [7:19] children of color black children in [7:21] South Africa were restricted from going [7:23] to the same schools and weren't allowed [7:25] to live in certain areas and your your [7:27] whole life was defined by the color of [7:29] your skin in and and so that becomes [7:31] like one of the first dominoes that I [7:33] didn't have anything to do with that [7:35] changes my life people that are growing [7:37] up today aren't aware of what the [7:39] apartheid is no no no I've had to [7:41] research as an adult to make sure I know [7:43] what it is I was born in '92 so for [7:46] anyone that doesn't know what it's like [7:47] to be [7:48] a child that has a a white father and a [7:52] black mother growing up in apartheid [7:54] South Africa where as it says on the [7:57] front of your book you're considered a [7:59] crime yeah because your father and [8:01] mother have different skin colors what [8:04] does that environment feel like [8:06] emotionally for you so I was [8:11] lucky I was lucky in that I think at [8:13] least on the surface I didn't feel it [8:18] you know because one of the most [8:20] important things I've learned from my [8:22] upbringing is a child's reality for the [8:26] most part is defined and created by [8:28] their parents or their caregivers you [8:31] know so I I didn't know that my world [8:33] was strange I didn't know that my mother [8:37] wasn't legally allowed to have me um you [8:40] know when when to to to understand the [8:43] apoide system I always try to break it [8:45] down for people you know people think of [8:47] like racism and they go like oh okay [8:48] it's racism and I'm like no it's it's a [8:50] it's a it's a much more Insidious system [8:54] that was designed to oppress People [8:56] based on the color of their skin so [8:58] where America just said this black and [8:59] and whites and if you had like one drop [9:01] of blood that was black you were black [9:04] and it was a very simplistic system the [9:05] aparte system was a was a culmination of [9:08] all of the worst ideas from around the [9:11] world in an around race you know so the [9:14] The Architects of AP parites explored [9:16] what the Australians did with the [9:18] Aboriginal people um they they explored [9:21] what the Dutch did that's where the word [9:22] aparte comes from um they they looked at [9:25] what the Germans did you know during [9:28] during um the the the the rule of the [9:30] Nazis in in Germany like Nazi Germany [9:32] they looked at they looked at every type [9:34] of racism including in the US you know [9:36] they they it's it's crazy how much [9:38] effort they put into doing such a [9:40] terrible thing I often joke with my [9:42] friends and I go if they put that amount [9:43] of effort into making a great country [9:45] South Africa probably would have been [9:46] like one of the most powerful countries [9:48] in the world by now because there was a [9:50] lot of efforts and it it's it's a genius [9:52] system but just in the wrong direction [9:55] um so what that meant for me was I could [9:59] I could be born by by my mother you know [10:02] I could be the seed of my father but I [10:04] couldn't live with him we couldn't live [10:06] with him we couldn't live together he [10:07] couldn't live in our areas I could you [10:09] know technically speaking my mother my [10:12] father and myself weren't allowed to [10:14] live in the same area that's that's how [10:18] granular the system was so I was [10:20] considered Superior to my mother and [10:23] then my father was cons considered [10:25] Superior to me you know and so when I [10:27] was really young for instance I'm still [10:29] I'm still an indoor kid and I think a [10:31] lot of that is because when I was young [10:33] when I was with my grandmother for [10:34] instance and my mom was working my grand [10:36] would lock me in the house I couldn't go [10:38] outside and play with the other kids I [10:39] would Escape now and again she'd always [10:40] tell me stories about how I would like [10:42] dig a hole under the gate to go and to [10:44] go and play with other kids in the [10:45] street but she was terrified and I [10:47] thought it was just because she was [10:49] strict and she loved me but it was [10:51] because she was scared the the police [10:52] were going to take me away if they found [10:54] me running around in Soto which was a [10:56] Township where only black people were [10:57] supposed to be and so in the apartheid [11:00] system this skin color wasn't considered [11:03] black it didn't your culture didn't [11:05] matter all that mattered was your shade [11:08] and and that was instrumental in keeping [11:11] people keeping a majority as broken up [11:13] as possible to ensure that they were [11:15] oppressing many minorities as opposed to [11:17] one majority of people so it's it's [11:20] really complicated I mean and you know [11:21] you've read up on it but it's it's a [11:23] it's an infinitely complex system around [11:26] a a ridiculous idea so you weren't [11:29] allowed to be seen in public with your [11:31] mother no no no no not at all and you [11:33] weren't allowed to be seen in public [11:34] with your father no no my mom so when I [11:36] when I go out in public with my mom she [11:39] would she would I I don't even know [11:41] where she came up with this but she [11:43] would act like she was supposed to be [11:47] with me but not related to me you know [11:50] so she would um she would dress up as uh [11:53] you know everyone has different words [11:54] for these in different countries but [11:55] like nanny maid domestic worker and she [11:58] would just act like she's my caretaker [12:01] you know so it would look like my [12:03] parents I guess have hired her to look [12:05] after me and so that's how she'd move [12:06] seamlessly with me in the streets [12:08] because nobody would suspect it um [12:10] couldn't be with my father at all in [12:12] public that was that was just out of the [12:14] question a second ago you said you [12:16] didn't feel this environment or at least [12:19] you didn't feel these things to some [12:20] degree I I sat with a guy called Gabel [12:22] mate I don't know if you of course yeah [12:25] yeah and one of the things Gabel talked [12:26] to me about from his early childhood was [12:28] this moment when he was sh where because [12:30] his he was um Jewish his I believe he's [12:34] Jewish his mother had to give him up [12:36] just for a couple of days two or three [12:38] days because the the Nazis were going to [12:40] come and take her away so she thought to [12:42] save him I'll give him give him up it [12:44] turned out she was okay so she went back [12:46] and got him now he cites that moment of [12:48] trauma of losing his mother just for a [12:49] little while as being really pivotal to [12:51] his life but also in the development of [12:53] his ADHD right and a lot of his sort of [12:55] internalized shame and when he said that [12:57] to me I was quite shocked that even a [12:59] couple of days away from a parent a [13:02] subtle feeling of neglect at such such a [13:04] young age he cites as sort of putting [13:07] shame into his soul but also being [13:09] responsible for some of his ADHD in the [13:11] context that he thinks of ADHD as being [13:13] this thing where we learn because our [13:16] environment is so externally stressful [13:18] we start to avert our attention to to [13:21] other things sometimes now the reason I [13:23] say this is because it highlighted to me [13:25] the chance and the [13:27] probability that maybe we might not feel [13:30] it consciously but maybe subconsciously [13:32] at a deeper level these things shape us [13:35] in a way that's harder to spot I I [13:38] wouldn't disagree with that um I'm sure [13:41] I'm sure his instance was probably [13:43] harder if he a remembers it and then B [13:47] is separated from his mother MH you know [13:50] I I I'm not an expert in the field but I [13:53] I think your mom holds a very different [13:55] place in your life as a child you know I [13:58] I I think we're wired that way and then [14:02] I was lucky in that I was I was seeing [14:04] my dad does does that make sense so so [14:07] being in public with a parent is is is [14:11] not really something of consequence if [14:12] there isn't that in the world you know [14:15] and so when I when I think of like how [14:17] we shape realities I had no other [14:20] reality to compare it to so it's not [14:22] like I was seeing other kids thinking oh [14:24] wow I'm I'm left out there were many [14:26] other kids you know even when I talk [14:27] about my story I always say to people [14:30] don't think of this as a as a as a like [14:33] a unique and and special story it's just [14:36] that I happened to be in a place where [14:37] people talk to me about it but I am but [14:40] one story of many others I knew many [14:42] kids whose dads had been killed by the [14:44] police or had been arrested by their [14:46] aparts side police or had left into [14:48] Exile and so they couldn't be with their [14:50] dads for other reasons so I in a weird [14:53] way I used to think I was like the lucky [14:54] kid I I knew my dad you know my Dad [14:56] loved me and I I would see this man and [15:00] it was so like the the the feeling of [15:03] that I think at that age maybe wasn't [15:06] wasn't apparent for me I'm I'm sure I've [15:09] been more affected by things that [15:10] happened in my latter years because I [15:12] was more aware of them but as a child [15:14] I'm just having a good time I'm spending [15:16] time with my mom I'm never not seeing [15:18] her and if I'm not with her I'm with my [15:19] grandmother which is again normal you [15:22] know in many cultures all over the world [15:24] but there was never a moment where I I'm [15:26] I'm separated from this person because [15:29] of the system and she was brilliant to [15:31] figure out how to do that and so I [15:36] that's why I say I don't I don't [15:37] disagree with what you're saying but I [15:39] think everything affects us and [15:41] everything can be thought to affect us [15:43] negatively and positively and you know I [15:46] I've yet to meet a human being who's had [15:47] a perfect existence so I'm very careful [15:50] to then sort of like point to everything [15:53] as the reason for because everything is [15:55] already the reason for which does that [15:57] make sense sense yeah yeah your mother [15:59] and your father were they in love in [16:00] your view oh yeah definitely definitely [16:04] she eventually married someone else yeah [16:07] she eventually Mar she well she she was [16:08] never married to my dad so okay they [16:10] couldn't get married because of the laws [16:12] and then I think afterwards my mom was [16:14] just like well we we are where we are [16:17] and then I think there was a there was a [16:20] seminal moment in their lives you know [16:22] where she became very religious and my [16:26] dad was not at all and my mom was like [16:27] well I'm going down a religious path and [16:30] and so this is this is my new life you [16:33] know and he and he was called Abel yeah [16:37] that's that's my stepfather your [16:38] stepfather [16:39] yeah I read about the relationship your [16:42] mother had with him and it was uh it [16:43] seemed to be very complicated at times [16:45] violent relationship yeah yeah it really [16:48] was do do you understand what that means [16:50] at that [16:52] age it's you know it's it's tough it's [16:56] tough to process because I don't even [16:58] think [16:59] I fully know what it means at this age [17:02] you know like love um violence domestic [17:07] abuse these are things that I don't [17:09] think anyone fully comprehends even when [17:12] I talk to like therapists about it it's [17:15] always like a it's a theoretical [17:17] understanding it's not it's not a fact [17:20] it's like we think that this and this [17:22] could be because and this could cause [17:24] and therefore that could be you know and [17:27] and and we have Brilliant Minds who [17:29] think on what this does and how it [17:30] creates and you know but man I you know [17:34] I I I will never take for granted what [17:36] it was like you know for myself and for [17:39] any other kid who's experienced it [17:41] growing up in a home with there domestic [17:43] violence like it's it's one of the worst [17:45] things you experience [17:48] because you live in a world where your [17:51] parents are like the president in a [17:54] weird way you know when you're a child [17:56] your pres your your parents are the most [17:59] powerful beings you know in your head no [18:01] one is more powerful than them and if [18:04] you ever have the the you know the [18:08] terrible Fortune of seeing your parents [18:11] most most times your mother being in a [18:13] position where she's being violently [18:15] harmed I [18:17] mean it it rocks your fundamental [18:20] understanding of what the world is you [18:22] know [18:24] so for me I I mean that's something I [18:26] still deal with in therapy today you [18:29] know because I I'm I'm always trying to [18:30] chip away and trying to [18:32] understand what is still on me and and [18:35] what what is callous that I don't wish [18:37] to be and and then what is too soft or [18:41] what is like I'm always I'm always [18:42] trying to understand it because I I [18:44] don't think there's one concrete um [18:48] answer for what the experience does to [18:50] you is there anything still on you oh [18:53] definitely I think I think there always [18:55] will be you know [18:59] because you know I didn't see ever see [19:02] that in my home but I can only imagine [19:04] how much that would have exacerbated my [19:06] further um my early perception of what a [19:09] relationship and what love means to some [19:11] degree so so you see like my my [19:14] curiosity my question to you then is [19:15] like when you go you didn't experience [19:17] it I go but what did you experience and [19:20] this is this is the weird thing about [19:22] the mind right is I find whenever [19:25] whenever I speak to I mean like [19:27] brilliant thinkers and you know [19:30] the therapists and and you know [19:33] psychologists and all these people what [19:34] I find fascinating is is how sometimes [19:38] your traumas or your perception of your [19:40] traumas is is directly proportional to [19:42] what you lived in your in your life so [19:44] in a weird way you might have the exact [19:46] same experience that I have it's just [19:48] that mine might have been more physical [19:50] does that make sense 100% it's an [19:51] interpretation right it's it's I'm I'm [19:54] always fascinated by that like by how I [19:57] can connect with somebody [19:59] where in their house it was it was more [20:02] about like fighting and bickering and [20:04] people saying things to each other and [20:05] and shouting and I didn't grow up in [20:08] that kind of house but then I've met [20:09] people who did and we seem to be kindred [20:13] spirits because we've both both [20:14] experienced fundamentally an unsafe [20:17] household you know the the feeling of an [20:19] unsafe household and I think that's [20:22] something that that many adults are [20:24] still dealing with or not dealing with [20:27] but as a child I you know I don't think [20:29] we're sitting there with a little [20:30] notepad going well nothing physical [20:32] happened here and that was only words [20:35] and this was because of stress and no [20:38] we're just experiencing an unsafe [20:40] environment I only really learn about [20:43] myself um in this context through my [20:46] triggers as an adult and then kind of [20:50] matching the cards there's this game [20:51] where you like match the cards together [20:52] and go snap and it was you know me [20:55] pursuing a young lady the young lady [20:57] turning to me after me trying to get her [20:59] to date me for like 3 years and be like [21:01] let's be in a relationship and then the [21:03] feeling I got matched the feeling I had [21:05] when I was like six or seven and I [21:07] watched my mother screaming in my [21:09] father's face I was like and that [21:11] happened enough times me avoiding [21:12] romantic relationships oh that's [21:14] fascinating rejecting everyone the on [21:16] the minute of connection the minute [21:17] where we were about to form a [21:18] relationship rejecting oh this is that [21:20] feeling from my childhood they're the [21:22] same how did you how did you match them [21:24] because the way I would described the [21:26] feeling was impending prison time [21:32] time of my life I've seen like prison [21:34] time was watching my father sit there [21:36] passively as as screamed at and thinking [21:39] why doesn't this guy leave why does he [21:41] why is he why is he with her and so [21:43] that's kind of where I formed the [21:44] hypothesis and once I had something to [21:46] aim at I could resolve it and I resolved [21:48] it wow but I I don't know no that's [21:52] interest you see yeah on on my side it [21:55] was the other way around it's like I [21:57] think [21:59] you know I I think when I looked at how [22:02] I saw relationships and love in that way [22:05] it was like I I I never saw it as like a [22:08] prison but in a in a in a similar way I [22:11] think you know in a way that sort of [22:13] informed my avoidance it was it was more [22:17] me realizing I don't have an opportunity [22:20] or I'll never have an opportunity to [22:21] hurt you if I don't fully give to you [22:23] you know what I mean so it was a that [22:25] that's why I say we can be in the same [22:26] boat but realize we have we have [22:29] different tickets that brought us here [22:30] you know the the outcome is the same but [22:33] we sort of end up in the same place and [22:36] so in my world I'm without a doubt um [22:40] think that seeing a relationship where [22:45] somebody was hurt because they allowed [22:46] somebody into their lives affected my [22:49] ability to allow people into my lives [22:51] because I was like oh if if that happens [22:53] to me then what what happens are you a [22:55] prisoner like are you are you subject [22:57] and and and you grow up in a world where [23:00] people just don't seem to take it [23:02] seriously you know this is still a [23:04] problem in South Africa till this day I [23:06] mean this is a problem in many countries [23:07] around the world I was in uh where was I [23:09] recently I was in Amsterdam recently and [23:11] I saw they had this huge campaign around [23:14] femicide and gender based violence and [23:16] it's it's it's it's a problem all over [23:18] the world where people sort of don't [23:19] take it seriously you know they call it [23:20] a crime of passion you know a woman goes [23:23] to the police and says you know my [23:25] husband beat me and they go like oh but [23:27] what but what did you do this is between [23:28] you and your husband go home sort it out [23:30] figure the whole thing out and um I [23:33] think that definitely left me as a child [23:36] even though as a child looking at the [23:38] world going like oh wow okay so the [23:41] world thinks this is normal then you [23:44] know then that that means the world [23:46] won't keep me safe either does does that [23:48] make [23:49] sense you went through something that [23:52] again really really horrific and you got [23:54] a phone call one day that your mother [23:55] had been shot by this man yeah and he [23:58] she'd been been shot point blank in the [23:59] head by this man yeah how old were you [24:03] then 20s when this [24:06] happened let me think that no I was in [24:09] my I was closer to my 30s because my [24:11] younger brother was old enough is to [24:15] drive but shouldn't have been able to [24:17] drive so maybe he was like 14 so yeah [24:19] maybe I'm like 24 at the time somewhere [24:21] there 24 you get a phone call from him [24:24] your younger brother yeah saying mom's [24:26] been shot [24:29] what goes through your head in that [24:30] moment when you get a call like [24:32] that what went through my head was I [24:35] knew I knew exactly I knew exactly who [24:38] did it I knew what had happened I like [24:39] it's it's you know one of the [24:43] worst things that comes with growing up [24:46] in a in a house of domestic abuse and a [24:49] house where you're dealing with an [24:51] alcoholic is you become hyper sensitive [24:55] and you become really good at at predic [24:58] things you know [25:01] so I mean my friends know till this day [25:04] like I'll be the kind of person I'll [25:06] tell you when we should leave a party [25:08] before a fight breaks out I'm never [25:10] around for the fight because I can I can [25:12] feel it I can feel energy I can feel and [25:14] not like woo woo like no I just start [25:17] noticing people are not having as much [25:19] fun as they were 20 minutes ago and a [25:21] few of the guys are stepping on each [25:23] other and the ratio in the room has [25:24] gotten bad and the music's not [25:25] connecting with people I'll just I'll be [25:28] like it's time to leave you know and I I [25:31] think that from what I've understood in [25:34] in in you know in therapy and and [25:37] working with people who do the research [25:38] around this is children start to develop [25:40] an an acute sense it's like a spidey [25:43] sense you know you you hear the sound of [25:47] a car and you know which car is bringing [25:50] danger to the [25:51] house you know I would know by the [25:54] sounds of of the footsteps whether or [25:57] not my stepfather was sober or [25:59] drunk just by his footsteps I Knew by [26:02] the way he would close or open a door I [26:05] would know whether to be on edge or not [26:08] and [26:09] so when I got that call everything in me [26:13] let go like it was it was one of the [26:14] most still is it's like a painful memory [26:18] you know is is [26:19] like the first thought I had was damn it [26:23] it it happened I thought it would but [26:25] not like this but it it it happened [26:29] it happened [26:32] yeah what is the cost you know because [26:34] you described that spidey sense it [26:35] almost sounds like a gift and the [26:37] interesting thing to some degree it can [26:39] be a gift I think every gift is a curse [26:42] and I think every curse is a gift and [26:44] what is the curse that comes with the [26:46] gift so the curse that comes with it [26:50] is I exist in a space where I am too [26:54] aware of how other people feel you know [26:58] and and as I've come to understand it [27:00] what happens to a lot of children who [27:02] are in abusive households is they [27:05] develop their hyper sensitivity as a [27:07] tool to protect the parent because they [27:09] start in the same way you were saying [27:10] with your dad why is he just sitting [27:12] here what happens in in a household of [27:15] domestic abuse is a child goes oh my [27:18] parent does not know when danger is is [27:20] impending and so I then need to be on [27:23] alert for them because if if they don't [27:26] know then I need to be alert and if I'm [27:28] alert I can keep everybody safe and so [27:31] you you develop that acute sense you [27:33] develop you know your nervous system [27:35] doesn't doesn't rest I would sit in a [27:37] room and I would I could feel the people [27:39] and and I still have that I have to like [27:41] I now have to practice letting that go [27:44] and [27:45] so part of it is is probably why I'm a [27:48] good comedian but it's like it's like [27:51] learning when I want to use it and when [27:53] I don't so learning when to ignore it [27:56] did you have a choice yeah yeah you do [27:58] you definitely do you know I think [28:00] emotions you don't really have a choice [28:02] about your emotions most of the time but [28:05] you do you do choose how you react or or [28:07] how it affects you and so what I'll try [28:08] and do is genuinely sometimes I'll be [28:10] even in a conversation I I practice it [28:12] when it's low stakes I'll be with [28:14] friends and I can feel the conversation [28:16] getting heated and I can feel someone's [28:17] going to say something that'll hurt [28:18] somebody else and then what I'll [28:20] practice doing is just keeping quiet and [28:22] breathing whereas what I used to do was [28:24] I would jump in immediately I would jump [28:26] I would I would interrupt I interrupt [28:28] interrupt you know and I'll be like be [28:29] oh did you guys see the and I would [28:31] diffuse and I'd find a way and I was [28:32] very good at it I still am but now I'll [28:34] just breathe and I'll be like well let's [28:36] see where this goes I know my friends [28:37] are not going to hit each other but I [28:39] now breathe and go like it's not my job [28:41] to protect everybody um and so I just [28:43] try and breathe through the feeling and [28:45] see how it turns out sometimes I even do [28:48] it as a game to see if I am right [28:50] because sometimes you're predicting what [28:52] one of the outcomes and it may not be [28:54] the outcome you know and and I I then [28:56] trust that they can also resolve things [28:58] themselves and that's probably one of [29:00] the hardest things is as a [29:03] child because as you said you're not [29:06] understanding how your father's a [29:07] prisoner on this chair getting berated [29:09] and I as a child am going I don't [29:11] understand why my mother doesn't [29:13] understand the danger why doesn't she [29:14] leave and and why why is she even [29:16] getting into a conversation with this [29:18] man he's not [29:19] sober why is this happening many [29:21] children experience this and then you [29:24] you then go this person cannot protect [29:25] themselves so I have to do it for them [29:27] and how do did you try and do [29:30] that sometimes I would I would I would [29:33] just I just disrupt anything you know I [29:36] would I could disrupt a conversation I [29:38] could I could find a way to to you know [29:43] sort of like um distracting yeah you [29:46] know like like Chris Pratt with those [29:48] with those Raptors in Jurassic Park just [29:51] find a way to like Snap and you know [29:54] just pull [29:55] attention um find ways [29:58] to it it sounds ridiculous but literally [30:01] it was it was me just thinking of ways [30:04] you know do you close a door that then [30:06] has to be open that then alerts more [30:08] people to the presence of somebody or or [30:10] do you turn the TV up in this way or do [30:12] you say something to him so that he you [30:16] know his mood might shift in a certain [30:18] way do you you know all of all of these [30:21] things I I was I was thinking of and [30:23] this is me thinking of these things at [30:25] the age of let's say 9 10 11 12 you know [30:31] all the way through and does it ever go [30:34] the other way where you're also trying [30:35] to cheer up your mother at all or take [30:39] care of her spirits or no no [30:43] um I think my mother's my mother's gift [30:46] and and curse has always been the fact [30:47] that her religion has has powered her [30:50] through you know and if you know [30:52] somebody who's very religious you'll [30:54] know that their connection with God and [30:56] their purpose pushes them through you [30:59] know obstacles that most human beings [31:01] would never be able to survive never [31:03] never never so there was never like [31:06] despair on the other side that I could [31:08] feel from my mom I never felt like I had [31:09] to like cheer her up you know um the [31:13] house definitely descended into like a [31:16] like a doom and you you could feel there [31:18] was a there was a palpable sense of [31:20] tension post what had happened that day [31:23] you you presumably rushed to the [31:24] hospital yeah um you arrived there [31:29] you speak to doctors I imagine yeah did [31:32] you speak to him did you did you tell [31:34] the police about him did you call yeah [31:36] yeah yeah yeah I mean this is all [31:37] happening in the chaos and the Panic you [31:39] called him I don't remember if I called [31:42] him or if he called I I don't remember [31:44] how it happened did you speak to him [31:46] after this event [31:48] no [31:50] no and then you find out that there's [31:52] been a bit of a miracle I guess because [31:54] the the bullet has missed all of the [31:56] Fatal parts of that [31:58] I mean find out is a it's it's it's such [32:01] a [32:02] um it's such a drawn out feeling and [32:06] moment because you know time is weird in [32:10] that it stands still when you're [32:12] experiencing the worst of it and it it [32:14] flies when it's the best of its and so [32:18] that that moment it even when you say [32:20] the word you you to find out or go like [32:22] no that it what felt like forever was us [32:25] waiting for the inevitable news [32:28] that you know my mom our mom was dead [32:31] like that that seemed like the the [32:34] conclusion I mean I've watched movies [32:35] you've watched movies someone gets shot [32:36] in the head and it's over you know so [32:39] that was a yeah that that was me [32:42] grieving it's a very strange experience [32:45] to have [32:47] because I grieved [32:50] somebody I grieved the loss of my mother [32:52] but then she didn't die but I completely [32:54] grieved her as if she was gone like I I [32:56] genu I cried because she was gone I [32:58] didn't cry because she was hurt I didn't [33:00] I was like it's over it's finished every [33:02] thought ran through my head I was like [33:03] wow I'm raising my brothers now I was [33:06] like okay I guess now I'm the head of [33:07] the household it's amazing like my brain [33:09] spun in every day I was already now [33:11] thinking 10 years ahead I was like oh [33:13] man okay where where are we living what [33:15] are we doing how's this going to work [33:16] and you know where's my little brother [33:19] and what do I tell him and how do I you [33:22] know in that moment you you must you're [33:25] so interesting because you get to see [33:28] in the most horrific way the fragility [33:29] of the most important relationship of [33:31] your in your life to come out the other [33:32] side and realize how fragile that [33:35] because you know you talked about our [33:36] parents almost being these like [33:38] presidents you also live under the [33:40] assumption that they're always kind of [33:41] going to be there yeah and in that [33:43] moment you got to see that that's not [33:46] that's not guaranteed yeah and that [33:49] curse ended up being one of my greatest [33:51] gifts because from that day onwards I [33:55] have never seen my mother the same way [33:58] you know I I've [34:00] never like I I every time I look at her [34:03] I'm I'm grateful that she exists every [34:05] time I I hold her I like I hold her like [34:09] it's the last time I she even like [34:11] pushes me off sometimes like I I hug her [34:13] hard hug her hard and I hug her for long [34:15] and I think this is extended to other [34:17] people in my world to be honest with you [34:18] is I I I'm very cognizant of the fact [34:22] that this thing is is ephemeral I don't [34:26] know when it'll when it'll disappear so [34:27] it has made me more appreciative of that [34:29] I don't assume you know I I I hope and I [34:34] think there's a possibility that we will [34:35] meet again you know what does they say [34:39] in Arabic [34:40] inshallah God willing I I don't know and [34:44] it was a bit of a miracle I was reading [34:46] because you're right yeah no it was in [34:47] movies you hear someone get shots in [34:49] shot in the head you never hear that [34:50] they survive a bullet to their head yeah [34:51] whereas in your mother's case she [34:52] survived it by [34:54] some yeah that that's where we have to [34:56] go miracle and that's where we we still [34:58] joke till this day you know because [35:01] because my mom's very religious I grew [35:03] up very religious but very skeptical of [35:06] of religion or anything really and I was [35:08] taught to question ironically by my [35:10] mother you know my mother taught me to [35:12] question um she still questions things [35:15] she doesn't she doesn't like follow [35:16] blindly so so I think [35:19] I I was I was in this position and I [35:22] think many of us were [35:23] where I'm I'm seeing what I think is is [35:27] is the end the doctors are saying to me [35:30] we we're going to try what we can but it [35:32] looks terrible and then we find out that [35:35] the bullet entered the back of her skull [35:39] went through her head and then exited it [35:42] like it it shattered it went it [35:44] basically missed the bottom of the brain [35:47] mhm you know went went past the [35:50] um you know the spinal cord all the way [35:54] through and then hit her cheek bone [35:58] which then deflected the bullet and then [36:00] went out of her nose so it like cut off [36:02] a little piece of her nose but the exit [36:04] wound wasn't as bad as it could have [36:07] been and yeah and they the doctors [36:10] couldn't do anything so there was no [36:11] brain surgery there was no opening of it [36:13] it was just stopping bleeding closing [36:15] wounds and now [36:17] praying and and the doctor was the one [36:19] who said miracle and he he said I he [36:21] said I hate this word because I'm a man [36:23] of science and I'm I'm a doctor he said [36:25] but the this was a miracle said this [36:28] shouldn't have happened like this and [36:30] then my mom was like yeah of course of [36:32] course it's a miracle and of course this [36:33] is how it was going to happen she like [36:35] you know my my Lord protects me [36:39] so he didn't go to prison no no I [36:46] didn't H how how does how does that so [36:49] in South Africa um I don't think it's [36:52] Unique to South Africa as well you know [36:54] I've when I've traveled to other African [36:56] countries I've I've learned this is [36:58] unfortunately [37:01] true the crime that a man commits [37:04] against his wife or his partner isn't [37:08] given the same validity as if it were [37:09] committed against a [37:11] stranger you know the court system [37:14] doesn't treat it the same the the law is [37:17] somehow not applied with with the same [37:20] level of ferocity as if it were somebody [37:23] else and so in this instance you know [37:27] they they basically ruled something to [37:29] the effect of like oh it was his first [37:31] offense and uh you know would he repeat [37:34] it or not and it was but it just it was [37:37] it's it's a failing of the justice [37:38] system that has meant that many women in [37:41] South Africa and other parts of the [37:42] world don't feel like justice gets [37:46] served you know you you see it time and [37:48] time again um you see it in the US all [37:51] the time unfortunately you know you'll [37:54] see man kills wife or wife and family [37:58] and themselves [38:00] possibly and the case just isn't treated [38:03] with the same it's always seen as like [38:05] there like a oh ah that something went [38:08] wrong or in a in you know in a tragic [38:11] love affair it's it's always it's always [38:13] labeled like that and I think that's [38:15] affected our ability in society to [38:19] um yeah I think to treat it the way we [38:21] should when you described the miracle [38:25] that that bullet traveled from the back [38:26] of your mother's head through through [38:28] her her head and then out her nose it [38:32] made me think about what we said at the [38:33] start of the conversation about dominoes [38:35] and how tight in this case millimeters [38:38] change the course of your life because [38:40] as you say the responsibilities you [38:42] would have then had to assume you see [38:44] the life you would Everything Changes by [38:46] millimeters yeah everything changes I [38:48] probably don't move to America I don't [38:50] explore the world in the same way I I [38:53] take on a whole different role in my [38:54] life it everything changes [38:57] what about anger towards him towards [38:59] Abel oh geez that yeah that's that's [39:01] been a tough one for me because I I [39:03] because I experienced every emotion you [39:05] know I I talk about it in my book like I [39:08] I've experienced every emotion because I [39:11] mean fear was the first [39:13] one the idea that this person could take [39:15] away you know the life of of someone who [39:19] arguably I loveed the [39:20] most [39:22] um then like rage helplessness um [39:28] even even like shame feeling like I [39:30] didn't protect her like I because I knew [39:32] from the beginning you know I IAL [39:34] literally IAL WR writes about this in [39:36] the book my grandmother would tell us [39:39] stories of how cuz she had the best [39:40] memory in the family she would tell us [39:43] stories of how when I was young when my [39:45] mom first met my stepdad she like I was [39:48] I was saying to the family I was like [39:49] this guy's great and everything but I [39:51] don't think this is a good idea I don't [39:53] think he's a good man I don't think we [39:54] should trust him I like I was saying [39:56] this as a child [39:58] you know and and the the one thing that [40:02] I think confuses people sometime [40:04] sometimes when it comes to domestic [40:06] abuse is that we we think of it as a [40:08] binary you know so people go like how [40:10] can these bad men live these lives but [40:13] they don't we don't realize [40:15] that often times the moment of bad is a [40:18] is a you know is is the the [40:21] explosion but everything around it is [40:23] charisma and charm and and and jokes and [40:27] you know and I laughed with this man [40:30] most of my life you know had some of my [40:32] favorite experiences with him as a human [40:34] being when he was wonderful he was the [40:36] most wonderful human being you'd ever [40:37] meet and it it took me a while to to [40:41] understand how [40:43] to um how to consolidate those ideas how [40:47] how to you know how to resolve the fact [40:49] that somebody who you love someone who [40:52] treated you with with with with respect [40:54] and and joy in in some moments [40:58] was also the person who brought you the [40:59] most pain you know um so I definitely [41:03] anger was like a big one for me I I I I [41:05] thought everything anger at myself anger [41:07] at my mom for for staying to to the [41:09] point that that could happen anger at [41:11] him anger at the system for not [41:13] protecting anger just like just [41:15] everywhere and then anger dipping into [41:16] pain and anguish and then you know [41:18] crying it out and then being angry again [41:20] and then being scared and then just just [41:22] going through waves and waves and waves [41:24] of that um and so that that was a lot of [41:28] my time in [41:29] therapy and a lot of my time having [41:32] conversations with my mom you know and [41:35] my mom would always always say to me [41:36] she'd be like you know over time you [41:39] learn to forgive and I was like I don't [41:40] think I could ever forgive and she was [41:42] like yeah she's like but you know [41:43] forgiving doesn't mean [41:45] forgetting it means letting go of the [41:48] thing that the person is holding of you [41:51] as opposed to you know you it's not you [41:53] letting them into your life it's not [41:55] it's just going like yeah that happened [41:57] I feel for them I understand many of the [41:59] things that made them do what they did [42:01] and then trying to let go of that that [42:04] that anger that's like burning inside [42:05] you that rage um and I'm glad my mom did [42:10] that because in the years since I've you [42:14] know I've spent more time reading about [42:16] domestic abuse and learning about [42:17] domestic abuse and speaking to experts [42:19] about it but unfortunately there's [42:22] there's a reason there's the Vicious [42:23] Cycle you know a lot of young boys who [42:26] grow up in homes where their moms are [42:28] abused grow up to then become abusers [42:30] themselves even though they hated the [42:32] very idea of what they were [42:35] experiencing um and so I to your point I [42:38] think it's because of that now un [42:40] unreleased and unrealized anger that [42:43] they didn't get to express when they [42:45] were children because they weren't safe [42:46] and and then now at some point it comes [42:48] out of them and so I I I genuinely had [42:50] to deal with that I had to even accept [42:52] the idea that I was as angry as I was [42:55] angry and helpless which is a Terri [42:57] combination for a human being to [42:58] experience have you forgiven him I think [43:01] in moments yes I think I I have I think [43:05] the the the levels of my forgiveness [43:06] won't reach my mom's because she was in [43:09] love with him you know to me this was [43:13] still a person who came into my life you [43:15] know he's not my biological father so I [43:18] think my I don't think I I've ever [43:21] reached like the level of like pure like [43:23] I forgive you but I do understand you [43:26] know I think I understand a lot of it um [43:29] I think I I think I feel sorry for him I [43:31] think I [43:33] um yeah I've learned to come to terms [43:36] with it but like pure forgiveness I'd be [43:38] lying to you if I'm like yeah I've [43:39] forgiven I'm like no I I think so [43:41] sometimes and then other times I go like [43:43] no actually actually I don't that [43:46] experience has left fingerprints on you [43:48] in some way oh definitely and how do [43:50] those fingerprints still show up today [43:53] in your day-to-day life in your [43:54] profession [43:57] oh I I wouldn't I wouldn't know the [43:58] answer to that [44:01] question [44:05] because because the strange thing again [44:07] I think about the mind is [44:11] that the things that affect [44:14] us sometimes may not be the things that [44:17] are as obvious to us as we may [44:19] think you [44:21] know you can get into a car [44:24] accident and experience an Ute trauma [44:27] that you and you know how this affects [44:29] you and you'll be shocked that many of [44:31] the other things you're dealing with in [44:33] your life where you're struggling aren't [44:34] actually from that car accident they're [44:36] from like the minute moments in your [44:38] life where somebody rejected you um you [44:41] know you weren't chosen to play on on a [44:43] team as a kid um you failed a test you [44:46] you were bullied you and and I I don't [44:49] say this like dismissively I I say it [44:51] cautiously I go like oh I I I I would be [44:54] careful to put all of it on that moment [44:55] because in in a weird way that moment [44:57] moment was contained MH you know it came [44:59] with many other other instances but but [45:03] yeah as I've sat and explored my my [45:05] myself and my brain and my my mind in [45:08] therapy I've realized that some of the [45:10] things that you think will affect you [45:11] the most might not they might stay in [45:13] that in that world and then there's all [45:16] these other things that affect you way [45:18] more than than you would ever think they [45:19] even have the right to so I I wouldn't [45:21] know to be honest with you I wouldn't be [45:23] able to say to you oh I'm like this [45:24] because of that or I'm like that because [45:25] of that no I do think appreciate people [45:27] more you know I um I'm I'm very present [45:31] when I'm with my loved [45:33] ones [45:35] um yeah but other than that I I I [45:37] couldn't give you a concrete answer that [45:39] would be that would be genuine you said [45:41] something about young men struggling [45:44] which is um came to mind as you're [45:46] talking about you being that young man [45:47] who seemed to be quite confused with a a [45:50] variety of emotions and [45:53] um less experience about what the [45:55] correct Outlets were for those emotions [45:57] you said recently in fact one of the big [46:00] things I've been worried about recently [46:02] is young men and how angry they've [46:03] become how alone they've become how [46:05] isolated they've become and then [46:07] ironically how they've turned the anger [46:09] isolation into a community there's a [46:12] couple of words there that seemed to fit [46:15] the shoe that would go on your foot [46:16] anger [46:18] isolation um as a Young [46:21] Man [46:25] loneliness C can you relate to to what [46:27] young men are going through in the sort [46:29] of modern world today because the stats [46:30] on young men is are quite shocking yeah [46:33] this the mental health stats the suicide [46:35] suicidality stats the depression stats [46:38] the stats around [46:39] purposelessness and I wondered to know [46:41] how you're looking at young men today I [46:43] get asked all the time by people that [46:44] listen to the show they say they've got [46:46] a young son and the Sun is struggling [46:47] they don't know who they are where they [46:48] belong with their purposes how to make [46:50] friends is a big [46:51] one how what what are you seeing when [46:53] you look out into the world the state of [46:54] young men so [46:58] I think I can empathize with a lot of it [47:01] and I think I can relate to some of it [47:03] but on my side you know other than the [47:05] anger let's say I wasn't isolated I [47:08] didn't feel isolated at all I because [47:10] because I got to play with other kids [47:11] and because I was with other kids and [47:13] because I had my cousins and everybody I [47:15] never felt isolated you know so even [47:17] when I was talking to you about my [47:18] grandmother I think you used isolated [47:20] but I didn't because I genuinely never [47:22] perceived it as that because I was in [47:23] the home with people it's just they were [47:26] Granny's so do you get what I'm saying [47:28] so I didn't feel like isolated in that [47:31] way um definitely felt like an outsider [47:33] though which is a different feeling [47:35] that's adjacent I think it occupies the [47:37] same lexical field but it isn't isn't [47:39] the exact same thing you know because [47:43] isolation I think can come with it like [47:46] a a certain Solitude and and certain you [47:49] know a feeling of like knowing that you [47:51] are in this thing alone because you are [47:52] in this thing alone but then being an [47:54] outside is a different you know it's [47:57] it's a different type of torture and I [47:59] think that's maybe what a lot of men are [48:00] experiencing that I can relate to I [48:03] think for a long time we've lived in a [48:06] world where we've told people what [48:10] they're supposed to do how they're [48:11] supposed to do it and it was sort of [48:14] easily realized right and now I'm not [48:17] I'm not a I'm not a historian I don't [48:19] know every you know history that we've [48:22] gone through but from the little that [48:23] I've read and and from from the the [48:25] historians that I have spoken into you [48:27] know Society goes in these waves and we [48:29] move through these waves and I think we [48:30] shouldn't take for granted now that [48:33] there was a whole generation of young [48:35] men who were given a purpose by War a [48:37] lot of war and war is one of the most [48:41] powerful thrusts of purpose that a [48:44] nation will ever experience young men [48:46] are told what they're supposed to be [48:47] doing your country needs you you need to [48:49] go and fight young man you need to [48:51] protect this country and you're like I [48:53] need to protect this country now even if [48:54] you don't want to dodge the draft you've [48:56] been given a a purpose in a strange way [48:58] even if you you're like I'm anti-war now [49:00] you have a purpose your purpose is to be [49:01] against the war your purpose is to [49:03] oppose the war your purpose is to spread [49:04] love and peace the other person's [49:06] purpose is to survive the war another [49:08] person's purpose is to win at the war [49:09] but you have a purpose and that purpose [49:13] is powerful and it propels Nations [49:15] forward you know and then you enter into [49:19] a period of what we would argue is [49:21] relative peace and I say relative [49:23] because there are many parts of the [49:24] world where there're just like these [49:25] constant chronic Wars that are waging [49:27] but for most people what are you what [49:29] are you doing you know you're sitting in [49:31] a world where there is no draft and [49:32] there there is no imminent warn it's [49:34] it's a choice now do you want to go to [49:36] the military or do you not and you don't [49:38] have to and and then [49:41] also things aren't just given to you you [49:45] know you before when your parents were [49:47] like go get a job it meant there was a [49:50] job to [49:51] get you know if your parents like go get [49:53] a job you you you you could it was [49:55] almost harder to not get job back in the [49:57] day than it is now in a strange way [49:59] because like it was just like this thing [50:01] you do you know it was doing I sweep I [50:03] clean I you know I collect I fix I it [50:06] was it was so simple and I think now [50:09] we're living in a world where many young [50:13] men are are are [50:17] experiencing a [50:19] purposelessness because it's sort of [50:21] like not laid out in any way shape or [50:23] form and I think we've created such a [50:25] narrow a narrow scope of what people can [50:28] do or can't do or you know like we've [50:31] rewarded so few things that I think [50:33] we've we've exacerbated the problem you [50:36] know gone all the times when being a [50:40] painter a philosopher a you know some [50:43] sort of artism is like celebrated in [50:45] that way you know gone on the days where [50:48] skills are passed down from generation [50:51] to generation and it it seems like that [50:53] that's that's less and less becoming a [50:55] thing and I from from from what I've [50:57] been told a lot of it can be tracked [50:58] back to like industrialization and this [51:00] consolidation of of um [51:02] manufacturing you know so an interesting [51:05] point of this you were talking was is [51:07] because more women now are graduating [51:08] with college degrees and because of the [51:11] equality movement that's that men and [51:13] women now are both in the workforce at [51:15] high level [51:16] positions I mean even in that there's [51:19] going to be less jobs available for [51:20] those men who would clearly before in [51:22] the past have much yeah and also this is [51:26] really interesting thing that lady was [51:27] talking to about my podcast where she [51:29] said that um there's still a stigma in [51:32] society that a man is to be the provider [51:34] yes but in a world where they're less [51:36] able to get those top jobs to provide [51:38] and women are earning more which no [51:40] one's got an issue with at all um there [51:42] no one not no one yeah yeah some people [51:44] have an issue with that that's true yes [51:46] I don't have an issue I don't think you [51:48] do but um but it they were referring to [51:51] it as the you could say the short man [51:54] problem or the T tall girl problem huh [51:56] effectively they were saying that women [51:58] want to date up and to the right which [51:59] has been shown in the surveys but [52:02] there's less people up to the right now [52:05] and so and there was another survey that [52:07] said 70 or 80% of women want their [52:09] husband to be a provider but math the [52:12] math doesn't math here because there [52:14] isn't that many men up there anymore so [52:16] and when you look at the dating stats [52:17] the sex stats the age in which men lose [52:19] their virginity now the amount of men [52:21] that haven't had sex in the last year it [52:23] effectively looks like just the top 10% [52:25] of men are having all the fun and the [52:26] 50% have been right disenfranchised by [52:30] the system yeah but I so I I I I think [52:34] about this all the time and I you know I [52:35] I try and spend as much time reading [52:38] thinking and discussing with people who [52:40] are far more brilliant than I'll ever be [52:43] and what I've come to realize is we may [52:46] now be [52:47] experiencing a culmination of The [52:50] Dominoes you know we're experiencing The [52:52] Dominoes of a declining middle class and [52:56] govern around the world no longer [52:57] propping up the middle class because [52:59] anyone who's real about economics knows [53:01] that like the middle class is an [53:03] invented thing really and it's [53:04] governments actively saying we're going [53:05] to create it right so as that has [53:08] declined over time and people have sort [53:10] of created this illusion that no [53:12] everyone can just get there on their own [53:14] Merit and like nothing needs to be [53:16] created for you we've seen the middle [53:18] class decline what happens then is [53:19] there's a gap you know between the rich [53:21] and the poor then there's another Domino [53:23] that falls and it's like the [53:24] consolidation of wealth you know these [53:26] Mega corporations around the world that [53:28] find ways to not pay taxes that find [53:30] ways to pay like slave wages to some [53:33] people and then sell you a cheap product [53:35] and then give you credit that you [53:36] shouldn't get and then put you in a debt [53:38] cycle that you shouldn't be in and [53:40] that's one Domino you know and then [53:41] politics becomes more polarized and more [53:44] extreme because of algorithms and the [53:45] way we say that's another Domino that's [53:47] another Domino that's another Domino [53:48] that's another Domino companies find [53:50] ways as you said to hire fewer people to [53:52] get more out of them or hire different [53:54] people that's another Domino and and in [53:57] a strange way I I think of this [53:58] sometimes I go you see gifts and [54:03] curses this is purely anecdotal in my [54:05] life it's not research but I'm I'm [54:07] willing to bet on this and I'm willing [54:08] to stand by it one of the [54:13] curses that women experience because of [54:16] being pushed out of the workplace and [54:18] being like forced to stay at home and [54:20] for such a long time was they learned [54:22] how to find [54:24] purpose in what most people would [54:26] consider mundane and maybe even [54:29] meaningless you know women have found [54:32] ways to like fill their time with [54:34] community and with connecting and they [54:36] found ways to like look after their [54:37] bodies and and work out and do things [54:40] and it's different in different [54:41] communities like knitting clubs book [54:42] clubs and just just think about that [54:44] it's like it takes up your time it gives [54:46] you a purpose we're going to read this [54:47] book and then we're going to discuss it [54:48] and we I mean fundamentally it's nothing [54:50] but it's something you know and it [54:52] drives you forward it makes you feel [54:54] like you're supposed to be somewhere [54:55] you're supposed to doing you're supposed [54:56] to be doing [54:57] something and then when the workplace [55:00] opened up the women are like oh we can [55:02] go and work as well and you know I don't [55:05] know about you but in school all the [55:06] girls were smarter than we were in class [55:08] anyway and so now they're they're [55:09] comfortably working especially in an [55:11] office environment which sort of like [55:13] designed perfectly for them in that in [55:15] that way and then guys I think we [55:18] haven't practiced that I don't know many [55:21] guys I don't know about you I don't know [55:22] about I don't know many guys who know [55:24] how to just sit with their male friends [55:26] and just be not do a thing be like just [55:31] be and I and I find and I you know I'll [55:33] be careful in saying this but I have [55:35] found that it the the the degree of [55:38] comfort in just being is is different [55:41] depending on where you're from in the [55:42] world so like my friends who are from [55:44] third world countries developing nations [55:46] you know whether it's South Africa and [55:47] we're in the township or whether it's my [55:48] friends from Trinidad or it's my like in [55:51] Trin they even have a word for it liming [55:53] they say they say let's lime and lyming [55:55] means spending together with no purpose [55:57] whatsoever that's literally what my [55:59] triny friends said they're like yo we're [56:00] going to lime on Saturday that means [56:01] we're doing nothing it doesn't mean [56:02] we're going to go see a game it doesn't [56:04] mean we're going to watch your we're [56:05] going to Lime it means your friend is [56:07] going to come they're going to sit on [56:08] the couch and you're just going to be [56:11] you'll talk and then you won't talk and [56:12] then you laugh and then you won't laugh [56:15] and I don't know about you but I I feel [56:17] like guys are we're not as good at that [56:19] you know like I I I read something the [56:21] other day that was great and it was [56:22] talking about how guys always need the [56:24] third thing there's always the third [56:27] thing there's you there's me and there's [56:28] the third thing hey what are you doing [56:29] on Saturday um why don't we uh you want [56:32] to go fishing it's like why why do we [56:34] need the fishing why can't we just sit [56:36] like this and be like hey what's what's [56:38] happening in your heart Stephen what's [56:39] what's going on what's happening in my [56:41] heart or let me tell you about what's [56:42] going on women can do that and some may [56:45] argue that it's you know maybe they've [56:46] been genetically coded but I also think [56:48] they've been forced to practice that [56:51] because men were like you can't come to [56:53] the you know the factory the office the [56:55] everything for so long long and then [56:57] women are like all right and I think I [56:59] think that's another thing that men are [57:01] struggling with but it's not like their [57:02] fault it's the Dominos when I was young [57:05] we used to go to the mall we us to go to [57:06] the mall and we'd hang out with other [57:07] kids and then now malls aren't really a [57:09] thing and then kids don't really hang [57:11] out anywhere and everything's become [57:13] about money and transactions think about [57:14] how few places you can go to connect [57:17] with people without money now you know [57:20] what I mean but when I was growing up it [57:22] was it was quite common you just went [57:24] and you hung out with other kids kids [57:27] and that was just what you did it didn't [57:30] involve money and I think I think we're [57:33] starting to experience that Domino [57:35] affecting Society now do you have money [57:38] for a video game console no oh then you [57:40] can't meet up with your friends on [57:41] fortnite you know do you have money to [57:44] to go to a mov no you don't or and [57:46] movies have gone up yeah you you can't [57:47] hang out with your friends at the movies [57:49] can you afford an Uber ride no you can't [57:51] can you all these things now have meant [57:54] that I think we're experiencing [57:56] generation of men in particular who are [57:58] not just isolated but not practiced in [58:00] the art of just like connecting with [58:02] another another male for no other [58:05] purpose than to just like share hearts [58:06] and and be human beings I've heard you [58:09] talk about how you think where're a sort [58:12] of continuation of our ancestors and [58:15] their sort of legacy is that kind of you [58:17] heard you talk about this before and as [58:18] you were saying about this idea that [58:20] women are able to um connect without the [58:22] third thing it made me think you know I [58:25] think a lot of women have had that [58:27] modeled by another the generation that [58:29] came before them whereas I don't know [58:31] about you but I didn't have that modeled [58:33] in my I never saw my dad sit with a guy [58:35] and that's what I mean he didn't even [58:36] talk to us like we didn't even have [58:38] those conversations I call him by his [58:41] first name yes and I mean he would even [58:44] he's like an awkward hugger you know [58:45] like a guy you might get get the [ __ ] [58:49] off me but we we don't have that modeled [58:51] so where do we learn the skill yeah and [58:53] you'd be weird if you said to your [58:54] friend well most people be weird if they [58:56] said we just want to sit down and just [58:57] what's in your heart yeah to be like [58:59] what's wrong with you yeah my my friends [59:01] treat me like that I still do that now I [59:03] think they've softened to it you know my [59:05] friends have sort of [59:07] um they indulge [59:09] me um and I think they enjoy it for the [59:11] most part but like I I do that with my [59:13] guy friends just be like man let's just [59:15] take a moment does it come naturally to [59:16] you just look into my eyes and let's [59:18] just take a moment well here's the thing [59:19] funny enough I spent most of my life [59:22] with [59:23] women so I spend most of my time my mom [59:26] with my grandmother with my grandmother [59:28] and my grandmother's friends because I [59:30] was in the house with them I'm just [59:31] sitting around with these women just [59:33] like talking and sharing I spent very [59:35] little time with like the the men in [59:37] that way so those men that are [59:39] struggling they they'll probably be [59:41] hearing you and thinking that you're so [59:43] far away from them in terms of that [59:46] ability to be emotionally expressive and [59:48] just to check in for a lot of them it's [59:49] uncomfortable yeah um what is it they [59:52] need like where do they need to start is [59:54] there a place to start I think it is [59:57] difficult but I also think we have tools [59:58] to make it easy you know [60:02] so I'm I'm I'm very hesitant to very [60:05] quickly just say to every man hey go out [60:07] there and be vulnerable and whatever [60:08] because the the sad truth is a lot of [60:11] guys have punished a lot of guys for [60:13] being vulnerable and being themselves [60:14] and we have to acknowledge that as well [60:16] you know there's so many times when a [60:18] guy will go to their friends and say man [60:20] I'm sad people like sad oh what are you [60:21] [ __ ] oh look at the guy sad what do you [60:23] me she broke up with you come on get out [60:24] there man [60:26] and now all of a sudden the circle that [60:29] you had that you thought was protecting [60:30] you has revealed to you that if you show [60:32] your vulnerability you're ostracized [60:34] from it it's not safe yeah so you don't [60:36] want to be there and then sometimes it [60:38] even turn into a fight you know now all [60:39] of a sudden people are slapping you or [60:41] hitting you or punching you because [60:42] you've admitted that You're vulnerable [60:44] and so I I think I think that's another [60:46] place where young men struggle is like [60:48] we have to maintain this bravado and [60:50] then we see all these these influences [60:52] online who keep telling us like yeah [60:54] you're a tough guy that's all you got [60:55] you got to be a tough man you got to be [60:56] a tough man that's what you got to do [60:58] never once are they saying to you like [60:59] yo what do you feel how do you get rid [61:02] of those feelings or how do you deal [61:03] with them how do you process them who's [61:04] your friend that you can like literally [61:06] sit with and cry with do you have one [61:09] but I do think we have tools you know I [61:11] I think again you know gifts and curses [61:14] the curse of the online world is that it [61:17] affords everybody anonymity and so they [61:19] can be the worst of themselves I think [61:21] the gift is also the [61:22] anonymity you know I think a lot of [61:24] people will be shocked at how [61:26] you can connect to a person online in [61:30] like a really honest and beautiful way [61:33] because you you you're safer in a way [61:35] you know I I've I've made some of my [61:38] best friends playing like war zone you [61:41] know when like when the pandemic hits I [61:42] was like God everyone was playing war [61:44] zone I was like I'll jump on I'm not [61:45] really like an FPS guy and I jumped on [61:47] and I was decent at it but I made [61:49] friends playing this game and would talk [61:51] to people and you'd regularly meet with [61:53] them and some people were [ __ ] but a [61:54] lot of them weren't and the ones who [61:56] weren't I would relink up with and we'd [61:57] play and then it goes from talking about [61:59] the game and talking about your loadouts [62:01] and then all of a sudden you're talking [62:02] about your family and your life and how [62:04] are things and how's your week been and [62:07] how's work been and what's going on with [62:09] your boss and that promotion and that [62:11] and to this day one of my friends one of [62:13] my closest friends a person who are like [62:15] considered like a brother to me is from [62:17] that video game I never knew what he [62:19] looked like all I knew was what he [62:21] sounded like and we we like know each [62:23] other because we we explore a world that [62:26] was full intents and purposes fake and [62:29] yet the most real experience that that [62:32] that that we could have and I think you [62:33] know I look at like Reddit for instance [62:35] I think Reddit is one of the most [62:36] beautiful communities I've ever seen [62:38] where a guy can get on reddits you can [62:40] write a post and you can say anything [62:42] you can say I'm struggling with this I'm [62:44] having suicidal thoughts I feel like I [62:45] don't have a purpose I feel and you'll [62:47] be shocked at how many other guys will [62:49] jump on and go hey man I'm in the same [62:50] boat hey I'm also struggling I I'm also [62:54] sad I I also my parents I don't have a [62:57] good relationship with them I you'll be [62:59] shocked at how that Community comes [63:02] around you because there is the safety [63:04] of knowing that you're not exposing like [63:06] your name and your face but you are [63:08] exposing the thing that's inside you and [63:10] so is it a shame that we can't do that [63:12] in person as well oh yeah definitely I [63:13] think it's it's the biggest thing that's [63:15] limiting men you know I think it truly [63:19] is it's one of the biggest thing that's [63:20] limiting men in society is that we don't [63:23] we don't have an outlet for our emotions [63:25] we don't you know so if we if we're not [63:27] fighting or competing then we're just [63:29] bottling it comes with a cost doesn't it [63:31] if you bottle things yeah yeah it does [63:34] it never really stays inside the bottle [63:35] it's like the bottle's got a hole in it [63:36] or something yeah exactly you said [63:39] something I really related to which is [63:40] you said you didn't feel like you [63:41] belonged when you're younger and I [63:43] wondered when I was reading you you say [63:45] this in your books and in other [63:46] interviews you've done if that was at [63:48] all related to your skin color I'm [63:49] assuming it was in part but um I I grew [63:52] up with the exact same feeling like [63:53] there's there's a reason why I don't [63:54] know anybody [63:56] from my hometown where I lived for [63:58] almost until I was 18 years old wow [64:01] because I just always felt like we were [64:03] different we were all we were always [64:05] different everyone's white We're the [64:06] black poor family and Al we just talked [64:09] different I had different ideas of the [64:10] world and dreams and um but even now I [64:15] still don't feel like I I belong I was [64:17] with so where do you feel like you most [64:18] belong then no like almost nowhere no [64:21] but where do you most belong there's got [64:22] to be a place where you feel like you [64:23] most belong well I'm alone oh oh wow [64:26] that's when I feel like I'm that's when [64:29] you can truly be whatever the [ __ ] you [64:31] want to [64:32] be maybe yeah maybe when I'm alone I [64:35] guess that's when you feel like you you [64:36] most belong okay let's take it away from [64:38] alone I'm saying with other people or [64:40] even in a place is there a city you go [64:42] to is there a group that you're amongst [64:44] is it you're telling me there's no way [64:45] that you go to where you think to [64:47] yourself wow I I belong here I [64:50] definitely not a city um I'd say maybe [64:52] when I'm with my brothers [64:56] at [64:57] Christmas um just because they also [65:00] didn't really fit anywhere so we kind of [65:02] all don't you know and they kind of I [65:04] think that's the only thing but there's [65:06] a lot of people that don't feel like [65:08] they belong and they're trying to find [65:10] their place in the world you were a kid [65:12] from South Africa that didn't feel like [65:14] he [65:15] belonged have you found your place in [65:17] the world so I haven't I haven't I I [65:20] just find places and moments where I [65:22] feel comfortable and and and and I feel [65:24] like I'm yeah I feel warm is the best [65:27] way to describe it and and this is a [65:30] lesson that I've learned actually if if [65:31] you're struggling with this it may not [65:34] apply to everybody but I think it can [65:37] help [65:39] sometimes the feeling of being alone is [65:42] exacerbated by the fact that you are [65:45] trying to connect with people based only [65:47] on you and yourself you know so you go [65:50] I'm alone I don't feel like I belong and [65:53] then you want to go meet somebody and [65:54] you and you're just like I hello I'm [65:56] me do I do I belong to you do you belong [65:59] to me and they're like what who are you [66:00] what are you doing here you're weird [66:01] like you and we we we don't know how to [66:03] belong and how but what I found works [66:06] wonders is finding things you enjoy [66:10] focus on finding things you enjoy like [66:12] like things that you like doing MH [66:15] activities and I mean anything running [66:19] um playing a sport uh reading like any [66:23] activity with your hands you fishing [66:26] fishing find it find the thing that you [66:28] love find it I want to really I want to [66:30] show you some um some graphs that I was [66:34] I was just thinking of um as you were [66:35] speaking I'll put them on the screen for [66:36] anyone to look at but have you seen [66:38] these grass before have you seen those [66:39] graphs before people keep us oh yeah [66:42] I've seen I've seen something similar to [66:43] this [66:44] yes in terms of our age and then who [66:47] we're with in our lives yeah and I was [66:49] particularly looking at the friend graph [66:51] there yeah so the amount of time you'll [66:53] spend with different people as you age [66:55] and it when I first saw this it was [66:56] really really shocking to me and [66:57] actually this graph changed my life a [66:59] lot because it made me realize that if I [67:01] if I don't do anything the sort of five [67:04] best friends that I have yes will drift [67:06] away from me yeah and I I I saw this in [67:09] your story that your relationship with [67:10] friendship and connection has evolved [67:12] over time yeah what has that Journey [67:14] been like if you take me back from when [67:15] you left South Africa you you arrive in [67:18] America to pursue your dream as being [67:19] this [67:21] comedian how did your priorities shift [67:23] as it relates to friendship and [67:24] connection [67:26] I think because I spent so much time [67:28] alone as a kid I loved other people you [67:32] know what I mean I loved being alone I [67:33] love spending time by myself but man I I [67:36] when I can dig a hole under that gate [67:37] and like connect with other kids I'm in [67:40] heaven [67:42] and when I when I became a young adult [67:45] and I and I was and I was starting to [67:46] work I really appreciated the people who [67:49] would come into my life and what they [67:50] would teach me and you know what what [67:52] what they would remind me of myself [67:55] which is like an important thing to me I [67:57] think I think fundamentally that's what [67:58] great friendship is is somebody who sees [68:02] a part of you that you wish to grow more [68:04] of and then every time you're meeting [68:06] with them they're encouraging it and [68:08] they're they're reminding you of it you [68:10] know and that's why I warn people about [68:12] bad friends because a bad friend can do [68:14] the same thing you know [68:16] like if I say to you like think of think [68:19] of the kid who bullied you in school [68:21] think of that kid who was really mean to [68:23] you yeah I bet you if you met them to I [68:25] don't care how successful you are on [68:27] this podcast there's a little bit of [68:29] that kid that got bullied that they [68:30] still have oh 100% you know what I mean [68:32] 100% like this there you go and Where I [68:35] Stood when he called me the N word [68:36] exactly exactly and it's amazing how [68:39] that happens to us but it's because they [68:41] they they hold us in a moment you know [68:44] and some people hold you in a negative [68:46] moment and some people hold you in a [68:47] positive moment there are some friends I [68:49] can think of where no matter what is [68:51] happening in my life if I meet them I'm [68:54] smiling I'm thinking I'm being creative [68:58] I'm laughing I'm loving I'm sharing I'm [69:00] feeling I'm I can't control it you know [69:04] it's not something that I'm actively [69:05] trying to do because they are constantly [69:07] seeing that part of me that I wish to [69:08] encourage and so how do you define a bad [69:11] friend like how do you know how do you [69:13] spot one I don't think you spot them I [69:15] think you feel it you know and I think [69:17] it's a lot easier for us to spot than we [69:19] think it is one of the easiest ones is [69:21] can you be yourself you know sometimes [69:23] they're not a bad friend they're a bad [69:24] friend for you because you are not [69:26] revealing yourself to them and so they [69:28] are being friends with the idea of you [69:30] but they're not being friends with you [69:31] and then you leave thinking I don't feel [69:33] good but they don't even know you so you [69:35] can't blame them for being a bad friend [69:37] you know I I almost don't think there's [69:39] such a thing as a bad friend I think [69:40] you're just in a bad [69:42] friendship you know you you because they [69:44] could be a great friend to somebody else [69:45] so I wouldn't even Define them as being [69:47] a good or bad friend I just go this is a [69:49] bad friendship for you MH and what I [69:52] learned very early on was like the value [69:55] good friendships you know and I I [69:57] learned because of my mom I remember [70:00] once I was um this was I was 1920 I just [70:05] finished high school so I was yeah I was [70:07] 19 [70:10] and just finished high school and I [70:13] spent all my time hanging out with like [70:16] friends of mine in in the hood you know [70:18] and that's we just did nothing the whole [70:19] day we got up to mischief and we like [70:21] how do we make money how do we hustle [70:22] how do we do these things and then my [70:25] cousin went to [70:27] University and then I because his [70:29] university like had this like open-ish [70:31] policy you could just hang out on campus [70:33] all day and so I started hanging out [70:35] with him on campus pretty much the whole [70:37] day when he wasn't in [70:38] lectures and then I I went home one day [70:41] and my mom was beaming you know I walked [70:42] in with my cousin and my mom was like oh [70:45] how are you boy and she's so happy and [70:46] she's like oh nice to see you and and [70:48] she said oh I'm so happy I'm so happy [70:50] that you guys are spending this time [70:51] together and I said why are you so happy [70:53] and my mom said because you you spend [70:55] all your time at at the University and I [70:58] said to my mom I was like Mom I don't go [70:59] to university I just hang around and I [71:01] do nothing and she said yes but the [71:04] people you are hanging around and doing [71:06] nothing with will inspire you to do more [71:07] with your life because they're doing [71:09] something with it and I was like what [71:11] and she said to me she was like you [71:13] cannot be around people who are moving [71:16] and not wish to [71:18] move whether we like it or not the [71:20] people around us are affecting how we [71:23] see ourselves and how we wish to be seen [71:26] and that stuck with me I don't think I [71:28] took it immediately but it definitely [71:29] stuck in my brain and the friends that I [71:32] have today are still I have new friends [71:35] you know as I grow in life but the [71:37] friends that I have today my core group [71:38] of friends you'll see them with me at [71:41] the Grammys you'll see them sometimes [71:43] like when i' be like you know backstage [71:45] at The Daily Show you'll see them with [71:47] me at random events in the world you'll [71:49] see them backstage at my comedy shows [71:50] you these people have literally been [71:52] with me on a journey where they've got [71:54] their own lives [71:56] but our Journeys have been intertwined [71:57] because they always make me want to be [71:59] more and do more and grow more and [72:01] change and and I think I do the same [72:02] thing for them and we're constantly [72:04] challenging each other and and [72:05] encouraging each other and playing with [72:07] each other and and and that that has [72:10] been I mean that's been immeasurable for [72:12] me you know that that's I even value [72:15] that more than I do like let's say [72:18] success on the subject of success [72:20] friendship sacrifice the moment when you [72:22] come to the United States um you are [72:25] very hardworking to say the least in [72:27] fact when we sat down you know you've [72:29] flown from Portugal to where was it [72:32] Seattle Seattle to Vegas yeah then here [72:35] to New York in the last couple of days [72:37] or say yeah it's four days I think in to [72:39] yeah yeah four [72:41] days you don't have to do that you don't [72:45] have to do that I mean you don't I mean [72:47] I don't know what's in your bank account [72:48] but I would haard a guess that you don't [72:49] need the money so I often wonder what is [72:52] it that's driving you today someone said [72:54] to me the other day on the podcast they [72:55] said they referred to my driving force [72:58] in my life as potentially being toxic [72:59] Fuel and I've never had the phrase toxic [73:02] fuel before but the definition of that [73:04] is this sort of combination [73:06] of seemingly negative forces that pushes [73:10] you to to prove something whether it's [73:12] to yourself or to others or okay and Sh [73:15] shame is a big part of that you see it a [73:16] lot I think with first generation [73:18] immigrants when they come to a country [73:19] they they know what it's like to be [73:21] without so they're driven by this toxic [73:22] fuel how does that land with you and it [73:25] can you relate to any of that at all I [73:28] can but I don't think that's been my [73:29] case [73:33] um if you spoke to me 3 four years ago [73:38] and you said Trevor you went to Portugal [73:39] you went to Seattle you went to Vegas [73:41] and now you're in New York and it would [73:43] be yes because I went to work here I [73:45] went to work here I went to work there [73:47] and I went to work there you know now I [73:50] was in Portugal with my friends that's [73:52] why I was in Portugal you know I was in [73:55] Seattle because I was working I work [73:57] with Microsoft but it's like on it's [73:59] like a passion project you know I get to [74:01] work on Tech I get to explore technology [74:03] and ideas and work with engineers and [74:05] you know just enhance my mind and then I [74:08] was in Vegas doing work and then in New [74:10] York I'm having a conversation with you [74:12] but this is not like in a work world so [74:15] I go like oh I'm going to have a great [74:16] conversation with you and I also love [74:19] being in New York cuz my friends are [74:20] here and this is technically where I [74:22] live [74:23] so like if you if you said to me let's [74:25] do this interview not in New York I [74:27] would have said [74:28] no but because you chose a city where my [74:31] friends are I can I'll say yes to you [74:33] and it didn't used to be the case so now [74:36] I have made one of the like determining [74:39] factors of how I live my life I think of [74:41] it through the lens of friends first [74:43] because I think that Community is [74:44] literally the most important thing in [74:46] everybody's life not just my life [74:48] everybody's life I some people be like [74:50] my family I'm like hey you think that [74:52] and it is true but as you said on the [74:54] grph you'll see at some point you're [74:56] going to get old and your kids are going [74:58] to go off and live their own lives and [74:59] do their own thing and then you're going [75:00] to be shocked at how it's you and your [75:02] spouse if you're lucky and you all of a [75:04] sudden you're alone and you're like [75:06] where are all my friends where are all [75:08] these people but friendships are you [75:10] know they're they're little piggy banks [75:12] you're putting money in and they're [75:13] putting money in yours and every now and [75:15] again you get to break them open and [75:17] enjoy what's inside but that's the most [75:19] important thing that's that's how that's [75:21] my like literally That's My Success now [75:23] now yeah that's my success [75:26] now [75:27] before it was just because I loved [75:30] solving any puzzle that somebody would [75:31] put in front of [75:33] me that's all that drove me and that's [75:36] that's a lot of what still drives me now [75:38] I just love puzzles and what was the [75:40] puzzle that brought you to America oh so [75:42] the puzzle was can somebody host The [75:45] Daily Show when they're like not from [75:48] America [75:49] and you know it's like just all these [75:51] things can can you even do it can you go [75:53] host a show in America like well this is [75:55] a crazy puzzle seems impossible so let's [75:58] try it was money or fame or anything [76:02] part of that cuz Fame is often associate [76:03] with a form of like validation no no no [76:07] that's the curse of what I do I often [76:09] say to people I you know I I'm unlucky [76:13] that a part of my job comes with Fame I [76:15] don't like that part of my job why [76:18] because I I don't need it nor do I want [76:20] it what's the cost of it the curse oh I [76:23] mean you I'm sure you're starting to [76:24] experience exper this in many ways in [76:26] your life but like [76:28] it's people will never [76:31] appreciate the [76:33] Beauty and [76:36] the and and the Tranquility that comes [76:38] with [76:40] anonymity the the ability to write your [76:43] story whenever you meet someone you know [76:47] when when you meet a stranger let's say [76:49] you're at a bar at a restaurant in a [76:51] train station wherever you can look at [76:52] somebody and you can say hello my name [76:55] is and you can tell them who you are and [76:58] what we never seem to realize as people [77:00] is every time we meet a new person we [77:03] are writing our story from the beginning [77:05] and from that moment in time you know [77:09] and and you think about this like I [77:11] think of it through the lens of like [77:12] like characters characters sometimes I [77:14] go like if Luke Skywalker met you before [77:17] Luke meets you know Yoda L what is Luke [77:21] Luke is just like some random dude who [77:23] lives on like a Dusty planet hi my name [77:25] is Luke I live on a Dusty Planet you [77:27] meet Luke many years later like Luke's [77:29] like hi I'm a Jedi what a different way [77:31] to live as Luke and what a different way [77:33] to be you know and and I think that's [77:35] the beauty sometimes that we have of of [77:37] that we take for granted as people is [77:39] the ability to rewrite a story or to [77:42] write it from a different perspective [77:43] because we've moved on and we we've gone [77:45] somewhere else when you are now [77:48] known your anonymity is gone people have [77:51] a different idea of what privacy you [77:54] deserve ve or don't deserve um I've had [77:58] many friends who won't go out with me in [78:00] public because they go hey man I want to [78:02] have a meal and not be disturbed I want [78:04] to wear whatever clothes I want to wear [78:05] without worrying that they'll take a [78:06] picture of me standing next to you and [78:08] then I'll look terrible or you know I [78:10] don't want to think about these things [78:13] and I get it I get where they're coming [78:14] from you know I I I think many of the [78:17] the downsides of [78:19] Fame are the facts that as my mom even [78:22] puts it you are now owned by the world [78:25] you know people have this idea that no [78:28] matter what day you're having you should [78:30] engage with them no matter who you're [78:31] with you should afford them the time and [78:34] I understand it from their perspective [78:36] because for them they seeing you and [78:37] they're encountering you what a [78:38] beautiful [78:39] experience you know but it's hard for us [78:42] to imagine that that person is just [78:44] having a [78:45] day you know I I remember once joking uh [78:48] with an ex of mine and I saying it's [78:50] amazing how like when we're having like [78:53] dinner or lunch in public [78:55] we can't even tell like an animated [78:56] coners story to each other because if [78:58] someone just sees us from far it look [78:59] like we fighted you know so now we're [79:02] sitting there and I can't be like yo [79:03] this guy I was like and if someone takes [79:05] that picture and goes like Trevor no [79:07] fighting with his and it's like no and [79:08] and that becomes a thing in your world [79:09] and now friends are where are you [79:10] fighting and other people you'll be [79:12] shocked at how pervasive it is and I [79:14] think it's why so many um celebrities or [79:20] famous people or people in the public [79:21] eye have lived very depressed lives have [79:25] lived lives where they're isolated have [79:27] lived lives where they don't leave their [79:28] homes and you know and then you find [79:30] them you know passed out in their [79:32] bathtub overdosed on something think [79:35] about how many times you've heard that [79:37] story a really famous person has died [79:41] you never hear that they've died in [79:42] public you never hear that they've died [79:44] while with their friends no it's always [79:46] them alone in like hotel room yeah hotel [79:50] room a bathtub you know a hot tub but [79:54] it's always like a such a solitary like [79:56] ending for somebody that the and then [79:58] the whole world cries for them and with [80:00] them it's like oh I can't believe this [80:02] what what do you oh this is so sad and [80:03] I'm like yeah because you'll be shocked [80:05] at how [80:07] lonely being well- known can actually be [80:10] because it means you can never be alone [80:12] in many places and that's where I think [80:16] core friends are very important you said [80:18] in there that you what they don't know [80:21] is that you're human and that you're [80:23] going through life in all the same ways [80:24] as everyone else yeah well no not in the [80:26] same ways but in different ways and I [80:28] think that's that's [80:29] the you know I I you talk about [80:32] awareness yeah I'm very careful I you [80:35] know I and maybe it's because of how I [80:36] was raised as well very careful to not [80:38] make it like a woe is me thing I'm not [80:40] like Fame has hurt me and it's harmed me [80:42] and you know there are many things that [80:44] have come with it every gift is a curse [80:47] you know but but many of the things that [80:50] I came with I did not want nor did I [80:51] need I like waiting for a table at a [80:54] restaurant I genuinely do and I don't [80:55] mind that you know I I don't care for [80:58] I've never been somebody because my [81:00] friends have always been the thing in [81:01] fact one of the days I learned the [81:04] lesson in in in one of the most [81:05] practical ways was I love I love roller [81:07] coasters and I love going to theme parks [81:10] and I used to go with my friends and you [81:12] do the usual thing you stand in a line [81:14] for an hour and then you ride for like [81:15] 60 seconds and then you walk for like 30 [81:17] minutes to the next one and then you do [81:19] it all over again and I loved it and [81:22] then one day I was going to a theme park [81:23] and then the theme park knew I was [81:26] coming and now as the host of The Daily [81:27] Show and they're like Hey listen um we [81:29] heard that you you're at theme park we [81:31] would like to take you around to all the [81:33] rides and there's like no skip you skip [81:35] the lines and you you get to ride as [81:36] many times as you want and I was like [81:38] this I was like this is it The Daily [81:39] Show has paid off finally finally all [81:42] the death threats are worth it and we [81:46] went and we rode on the rides and we [81:47] were just manic we did every I mean we [81:50] did every ride that you couldn't do in a [81:52] day and we we finished a park would [81:54] probably take like let's say 8 to 10 [81:56] hours to finish we did it all multiple [81:59] times in like the SP span of like 3 [82:01] hours I had a headache my friends were [82:05] dehydrated we had had seldom a [82:07] conversation amongst us we and it was so [82:10] strange getting back in the [82:12] car and this felt like the most [82:14] depressing theme park experience we'd [82:16] ever had and we got back to the house [82:19] and I guess because my friends and I [82:20] like doing this we we sort of tried to [82:24] understand and analyze what have gone [82:26] wrong we're like why do we feel like [82:28] this and we came to the conclusion we're [82:30] like oh we assumed that the theme park [82:34] we love the theme park because of the [82:35] roller coasters what we didn't realize [82:38] was we love the theme parks because it [82:40] forced us to stand in line for an hour [82:41] as friends and just [82:43] be and we just talk this literally you [82:46] can't do anything else you have to stand [82:47] there for an hour and just like talk to [82:50] each other and then you hear people [82:51] screaming and and they've designed them [82:53] now like once I did that I started like [82:55] learning about theme Parx and how [82:56] brilliant ones do this to you on purpose [82:58] they make you wait in certain ways and [83:00] in certain places and then the screams [83:02] of other other the writers make you [83:04] anticipate something and become excited [83:06] and and it's all the ingredients for [83:07] like living a good life I feel is [83:10] instead of chasing like what seems like [83:12] the exciting roller coaster thing you [83:15] spend your time with the people you love [83:17] and you look forward to amazing things [83:19] that you're going to do hopefully with [83:20] them or maybe just for yourself and then [83:23] when you get there you enjoy it and then [83:24] on the other side you take a long walk [83:26] and you commiserate and you share the [83:28] experience with each other and you get [83:29] to process what has happened to you so [83:32] that when you do it again it becomes [83:34] novel and interesting and beautiful and [83:35] and and so that's that's like where I [83:38] realize like the downsides and the [83:39] upsides and the I so I I appreciate many [83:42] of the things that have come with my [83:43] life don't get me wrong but I I won't [83:46] lie to you I have as much fun in a [83:49] comedy club with 70 people in it as I do [83:53] in an arena with 12,000 people in it in [83:55] fact I have more fun in the comedy [83:57] club it's so paradoxical that adding [84:01] friction to an experience can make the [84:03] experience better but that's kind of [84:04] what you've described and as you were [84:06] talking about it I was thinking about [84:07] this study I read ages ago where they [84:09] took one group of people they they had [84:11] this Bor boring Community Forum yeah and [84:13] they took one group of people and they [84:14] let those people straight into this [84:17] boring Community forum and then they [84:18] asked them in a survey after how was the [84:20] community and all the people said boring [84:23] and they took another group of people [84:24] and they made them wait to get into the [84:26] forum they made them complete tests and [84:28] go through this rigorous process to [84:30] fight to get into the forum the people [84:33] went into the same forum and then in [84:35] surveys after they described The Forum [84:36] as being so much better that's than the [84:39] people who weren't made to go through [84:40] the The Gauntlet to get in and it's this [84:42] idea that friction adds value to the [84:45] thing we like fight for it like the 40 [84:47] minute queue is what makes us so [84:49] grateful for the the roller coaster and [84:52] when you get robbed of that because you [84:53] get to play Life in Easy Mode or exactly [84:55] that's exactly what it is that's the [84:56] curse yeah it's crazy but also yeah the [84:58] point about connection I never thought [85:00] that so much of the enjoyment of going [85:02] to the theme park is standing there and [85:03] just small talking being for an hour [85:05] with my friends it's just being you [85:07] mentioned the word death threats on The [85:08] Daily Show yeah when you did get on to [85:10] the Daily Show which was a real first [85:13] for a show like that um it didn't go so [85:16] well at first oh yeah it was terrible I [85:19] didn't realize this I was looking at the [85:20] stats and I read that there was it was [85:21] absolutely terrible it was like man was [85:25] it was you know when they say be careful [85:28] what you wish for because I was like oh [85:29] I'd love a challenge and this will be an [85:31] interesting and oh oh it was a challenge [85:33] it was [85:34] absolutely [85:37] terrible [85:39] because I stepped into a role that I [85:43] quickly learned wasn't just a position [85:46] but it was it was almost um it was [85:51] almost I don't know how like it was like [85:54] a Post in a way it was it wasn't just [85:56] like you're hosting a show no no very [85:58] quickly learned like John Stewart to [86:00] many people you know he was the most [86:01] trusted man in America and he there was [86:03] the voice of a generation and he you [86:06] know the politicians who sort of Look to [86:07] Him and they're like well what would [86:08] John Stewart think and wow I mean that [86:11] that was and even if you remove the [86:14] legend that is John Stewart's just [86:16] taking over any show comes with a moment [86:19] where people don't like no one likes [86:21] change you know so like when Johnny [86:23] Carson handed over people weren't happy [86:25] you know when when when Leno Handover [86:27] people weren't happy it it always [86:28] happens is race an element in this I'm [86:31] sure for some people and but I think [86:33] it's you know I'm careful to say like [86:35] it's about race and I think it's more [86:38] it's all the things that make you [86:39] different yeah you know so me being [86:42] different in my color to John Stewart [86:44] probably makes a person feel like I'm [86:45] more different to him when I'm sitting [86:47] in the in the desk the show has changed [86:49] the show has been really yeah and and I [86:51] that I love if there's one thing I love [86:53] it's understanding or trying trying to [86:54] understand human beings cuz I think we [86:56] we're very complicated but we're also [86:58] simple at the same time and that was a [87:01] wonderful moment for me to like learn [87:02] like wow even people cuz these people [87:06] who were hating by the way it's not like [87:07] these were conservatives or anything [87:09] those was like liberal people who are [87:11] you know and some of the things they [87:12] were saying to me in emails or like on [87:14] onlineemail yeah yeah oh yeah people [87:16] they'll they'll find ways but you I I [87:19] would sit there and be like wow you [87:21] really hate me I've done nothing to you [87:23] but you hate me but then I realized no [87:25] you hate the idea of me and you hate [87:28] what I've done to your world I'm the I'm [87:30] the representative I'm the idea of how [87:32] your world has changed here's this idea [87:34] that you've loved John Stewart he's now [87:37] gone and I am the reason he's gone even [87:39] though that's not the case I am the [87:41] reason he's gone and because I'm the [87:43] reason he's gone you are now Angry death [87:46] threat oh yeah but I mean that was [87:47] extreme and you you get that because the [87:49] Daily Show is involved in politics you [87:50] know or we comment on politics rather [87:53] and and and when we do that man you know [87:57] people would just be like you go back to [87:58] where you came from you you know who who [88:01] how dare you and you're coming here and [88:03] end with this and blah blah blah and [88:04] blah blah blah again my gift and my [88:07] curse was that I came from South Africa [88:08] so I know like top quality racism so you [88:14] know like when I came to America and [88:17] like people were saying these things to [88:18] me I was like oh oh I was like okay this [88:20] okay this interesting you know but but [88:24] it it was really hard and I'm lucky that [88:28] I had the people I had making the show [88:30] with me [88:32] because they really really really taught [88:34] me or I learned from the [88:37] experience that you genuinely you cannot [88:41] choose what's going to happen to you but [88:44] you almost definitely can choose who [88:46] you're going to handle it [88:48] with and that is the only thing that I [88:51] now do in my life and it determines [88:52] everything I will take [88:54] a [ __ ] job if I'm going to work with [88:56] great people because a great job with [88:59] the worst people is not going to feel [89:00] great on the other side of it you know [89:04] and and even thinking of it makes me [89:06] happy I think I think about the terrible [89:08] times we had together in that building [89:10] you know like reviewers hated us and [89:13] people calling for the show to be [89:14] canceled and and we were just like there [89:16] commiserating trying our best and doing [89:18] our best and and now when people see it [89:20] as a success story they go like oh you [89:21] won the emys and you you know and it was [89:24] this and was successful and then the [89:25] digital footprint of the show changed [89:27] everything and all of a sudden you you [89:28] know these billions of Impressions and [89:29] whatnot so yeah that came afterwards and [89:32] now that's that's easy to see as an end [89:34] product but when we were in the [89:36] trenches there was there was none of [89:38] that you know what was if I was a fly on [89:40] the wall in the worst day in the [89:41] trenches is there a day that Springs to [89:44] mind a day where you make maybe [89:46] considered reconsidered your decision a [89:48] day where you you didn't want to get out [89:50] of [89:50] bed I was reading the stats around this [89:53] to give people show had lost 700,000 [89:56] viewers a night when you first took over [89:59] by the every night don't say like that [90:02] no no no you just made it sound like [90:03] like we lost them every every night not [90:06] every night it's from interv you GQ so I [90:09] know I know and by the H 100th um [90:11] episode it had lost 37% of its viewers [90:14] listen it went on to become a Smash Hit [90:15] across this digital no no but you're [90:17] right but I think that's important I [90:18] think it's important context cuz I [90:19] didn't know that I just watched the show [90:22] I saw it on social media and I thought [90:23] he's killing oh no man no it was it was [90:26] a it was a mission uh yeah and there [90:29] were there were many [90:30] days again I mean I'm just so grateful [90:33] and I'm so lucky there were days where I [90:35] remember there was one day we like made [90:37] a joke on the show not even on the show [90:40] no someone on the team had tweeted [90:42] something on the show account and now [90:44] there were like articles written about [90:46] it and they were like this is why Trevor [90:47] Noah shouldn't be the I wasn't even the [90:48] person who tweet it's the show [90:49] accountant but I you know I'm not going [90:51] to come out and be like that's not me [90:52] we're a team whatever my name is on the [90:55] show and I remember turning to um one of [90:59] the writers Dan amyra who's still the [91:01] head writes at the show and um I said to [91:05] Dan I was like man I like I think I [91:06] should just quit I was like it'll just [91:08] be easier for all of you because you [91:10] guys were having a great time I come [91:12] along I've made your lives terrible like [91:14] I should just quit I should just go you [91:16] know and then I'll never forget Dan he [91:19] just he just looked at me and he's he's [91:21] very dry one of the funniest human [91:23] beings you you'll ever a meat really dry [91:25] in his delivery and he looks at me and [91:27] he [91:28] goes but if you [91:31] leave this thing might get shut down and [91:34] then I don't get lunch [91:37] anymore I said I'm sorry what I'm like [91:40] pouring my heart out here and he's like [91:42] I like the lunch [91:45] here you you can just what what are you [91:47] talking [91:48] about and he and he said it to me in [91:51] such a like matter OFA way [91:54] and I remember being stunned and I [91:56] looked at him and he said um how do he [91:58] say it to me again I don't know the [92:00] exact words but the sentiment was [92:02] basically he [92:03] said he said these people don't like you [92:06] right and I was like yeah clearly and he [92:07] said so if you leave are they going to [92:09] like you I was like no then he's like so [92:13] if leaving won't make them like you and [92:15] staying won't make them like you I want [92:17] to just stay he's like because I like [92:19] working with you so just [92:22] stay and that was just like one of those [92:25] many moments where you know you talk [92:26] about [92:27] millimeters it was just him saying to me [92:30] just stay just [92:31] stay and I stayed and now everything [92:35] seems obvious but that building was full [92:37] of people who told me to just stay that [92:39] building was full of people who were [92:40] like I know one of them was John Stewart [92:43] like I'll never forget like John one of [92:44] the best things he ever did for me was [92:47] it's almost like he predicted this [92:49] that's why I call him Yoda I call him my [92:50] Jewish Yoda you know because we we have [92:52] this relationship where it's like like I [92:54] came into this order where I was [92:55] learning this new thing called you know [92:58] like the force and being a Jedi and it [93:01] seemed impossible and he was this [93:03] ordained figure in a way but I remember [93:05] he he called me into his office one day [93:07] and he said to me he said I want to I [93:10] want to show you something and he showed [93:12] me an [93:13] article that someone had written about [93:15] him leaving the show like he was you [93:17] know because he was this was just before [93:18] he left and the article was like why [93:21] John Stewart cannot leave the show and [93:23] why American needs him and why John [93:25] Stewart has to and it was just this [93:27] effusive article about like the 10 ways [93:29] that John Stewart is the heart of [93:31] American Pol he cannot leave and John [93:34] showed me that and he's like huh and [93:35] he's John's like doesn't take himself [93:37] seriously at all so John was like huh [93:39] and I was like yeah and he's like huh [93:41] huh and I'm like yeah congrats you you [93:44] crushed it he's like no no I crushed it [93:46] I'm important to America and we laugh [93:48] and then he goes hold on now and he [93:50] types something in and then he pulls up [93:52] an article [93:54] from like years ago years and years and [93:57] years ago but it was like not wait it [93:58] wasn't that far it was like it was like [94:00] three years prior two years PRI so he [94:02] was like at his prime but it was like [94:03] two three years before that and it was [94:06] like why John Stewart needs to leave The [94:08] Daily Show it's over for him he's the [94:10] worst of America it's he's not good for [94:12] this country was this whole article just [94:14] like slamming him and he's like you see [94:17] and I was like oh yeah I guess you know [94:18] things he's like no no no you're not [94:19] looking at the right thing and he's like [94:20] look who wrote it and it was the same [94:21] journalist [94:24] so when John was in they were like this [94:25] guy needs to leave and then when John [94:27] was leaving they were like oh this guy [94:28] needs to stay and he looked at me and he [94:30] said to me please understand that to me [94:34] he said to many people I have I have [94:36] always been obvious but he said I know [94:38] my road and I wasn't and he wasn't you [94:40] know when John took over the show Craig [94:42] kilborne had been the previous host [94:44] people thought John couldn't do it if [94:46] you said that today people would burn [94:47] you at a stake be like are you crazy [94:48] what do you mean John Stewart can't do [94:50] it that's what people said about him and [94:52] he was one of the those people who said [94:54] to me he like hey man I've been there [94:57] and maybe people don't remember it [94:58] because it we like pre- internet but he [95:00] was like put your head down and this is [95:02] part of the journey and I leaned on him [95:05] I leaned on the other people and it was [95:07] just like you know just like a slow you [95:10] know boring slog you know filled with [95:13] many funny and sad moments and then one [95:17] day it seems obvious to to people from [95:20] the outside and when you go home on [95:21] those days and you're alone in your [95:23] apartment or at home in your house and [95:26] you're not around the guy that wants the [95:28] lunch and the the colleagues at [95:30] work what is that like I read that [95:32] you're someone that suffered with [95:33] depression periodically throughout your [95:34] life your adult life as well were you [95:36] suffering in that period when you were [95:38] alone I didn't realize at the time that [95:42] the depression that I was suffering from [95:44] was ADHD depression it wasn't like [95:46] depression depression and I I've learned [95:48] since that there's a difference so I I [95:50] related to many ideas in and around [95:52] depression but I remember been confused [95:54] cuz I was like I'm not depressed [95:55] perpetually but I I definitely [95:56] experienced these moment I didn't know [95:58] that ADHD can do that to you I didn't [95:59] know that it can be like a byproduct of [96:01] untreated um ADHD and not knowing that [96:03] you have ADHD so that's just like a sort [96:05] of like a footnote there but [96:09] um but it's funny you say that when you [96:11] went home and you see I wasn't alone and [96:14] that's probably the reason I survived so [96:16] David was with me every single day he [96:18] had moved from South Africa we started [96:21] like a comedy night together that's how [96:22] long we had been working together so we [96:25] would walk out of that building together [96:27] on the hottest nights in New York and on [96:29] the coldest nights in New York and we [96:31] would go back and we live together in [96:32] the same apartment and then we'd open [96:34] like our notebooks and we'd be like all [96:36] right what could we have done better and [96:39] we would just sit there and we'd be like [96:40] what could we have done better and we'd [96:42] get home at like 88 or 900 p.m. and then [96:44] we'd work until midnight go to bed get [96:47] back to the office at 78 the next day [96:49] and do it all over again and then we'd [96:50] come home in the evening be like what [96:51] were the wins what could we have done [96:53] better [96:54] and we would just do this over and over [96:56] but I was never alone and so I never [97:00] think of it you know that's that's why I [97:02] wish like more people would share their [97:03] stories in that way is because I think [97:06] we live in a world where so many people [97:09] sell an idea of perseverance as an [97:11] individualistic Pursuit when it's [97:15] not I think too many people forget the [97:18] pets on the back and the hugs and the [97:20] encouragements and the load liftings [97:23] they forget all of it they see their [97:24] suffering they see their success and [97:27] then they go out and sell to the world [97:29] how you got to persevere let me tell you [97:30] what in the darkest times let me tell [97:32] you what I did Stephen I looked at [97:33] myself in the mirror and I said Trevor [97:35] you're going to do it Trevor you're [97:36] going to be the man at The Daily Show [97:37] you're going to yeah but everyone [97:39] forgets they're like no your friend was [97:40] there going like man do you want to go [97:41] get some chicken wings let's go get some [97:43] chicken wings there was somebody [97:44] accepting you despite your [97:46] failure there was somebody who was [97:48] reminding you of that part of you that [97:50] you always wish to be which is somebody [97:52] who can solve a puzzle is somebody who [97:54] enjoys what they're doing is somebody [97:56] who perseveres but they're they're [97:58] looking at that side of me and so I [98:00] wasn't alone was me it was David was [98:02] Joseph [98:03] opio guy who was random is now one of my [98:06] best friends a writer from Uganda who [98:08] did The Daily Show like a version of The [98:10] Daily Show in [98:11] Uganda what a like this weird world [98:14] coming together you meet us today you'll [98:15] think we've known each other our whole [98:16] lives but he was also he was just there [98:18] and he's like I Believe in Us he's like [98:20] I think we can do this I think we can do [98:22] it I think we can do it and but if you [98:24] were going home alone oh then I wouldn't [98:26] be here with you I I I will put all my [98:30] money on that I would not be here with [98:32] you but I don't even think I would have [98:34] taken the Daily Show I wouldn't have [98:35] done the Daily Show when you say you [98:37] wouldn't be here with me what do you [98:38] mean by that oh you wouldn't be calling [98:41] me here to have an interview with me [98:43] because I wouldn't have done the things [98:44] that I've done because I couldn't have [98:45] done them alone because nobody could [98:47] have done them alone nobody has done the [98:49] things they've done [98:50] alone you know [98:53] like everyone I've seen people tell [98:55] these stories of climbing Mount Everest [98:57] and Maya sent and my yo all those [98:59] sherpers that went with you let's talk [99:02] about them no one's climbing Everest [99:04] alone no one's discovering you know the [99:07] the the South Pole alone no you weren't [99:10] in fact the the person who was the guy [99:12] who like like first navigated the South [99:15] Pole was led there by somebody you know [99:17] what I mean all these stories that we [99:20] tell self-made oh I love that phrase [99:23] it's my favorite self-made billionaire [99:26] oh really oh it's an interesting choice [99:28] of words so you just did this all by [99:31] yourself huh you made the thing by [99:33] yourself with your hands you made many [99:35] more of them by yourself you drove the [99:38] trucks you thought of all the ideas you [99:40] put it in the stores you gave it to the [99:42] people you took the money you invested [99:44] it you grew it all by yourself all by [99:46] yourself all the ideas were from your [99:48] head all by yourself and then you got [99:50] there all come on there's there's no [99:52] such thing and I don't think it [99:53] diminishes your achievement I just think [99:56] it's important because it helps people [99:58] understand that they need other people [100:01] to get to where they're trying to get to [100:03] and maybe sometimes the reason you're [100:05] not experiencing that is because you're [100:06] trying to do it alone I hear people all [100:09] the time go like I'm gonna put my head [100:10] down and I'm GNA I'm going to crush it [100:13] okay alone good [100:15] luck good luck and I think it creates an [100:18] unrealistic expectation for people [100:20] people who studied together in school [100:22] got better marks [100:23] there was just like a simple thing that [100:25] we learned in our school when I was [100:26] growing up if you had a study partner [100:28] you just learned [100:29] more the idea of the sherpers is such a [100:32] good analogy because the sherpers never [100:34] really get the credit in the story they [100:36] never mentioned in the article but [100:37] they're lifting most of the bloody [100:38] weight and they're literally keeping you [100:40] alive yeah they've ascended Everest more [100:43] than the most celebrated Everest [100:45] Ascender how are they not the ones it's [100:48] the equivalent of finding out that like [100:50] somebody ran carrying you same bolt [100:54] but then we don't consider them the [100:55] fastest man alive yeah you know and and [100:58] so I I don't know that so I I'm I'm [101:01] always cautious to think of that because [101:02] it doesn't like I say it doesn't [101:04] diminish what you've done but man you're [101:06] not doing it alone and that and to to [101:08] realize that I think helps you to [101:11] understand why it's important to have [101:12] those people and why it then brings Joy [101:14] why did you leave The Daily Show because [101:16] the moment you left the Daily Show you'd [101:18] won these huge Awards the show was had [101:20] caus this sort of digital Revolution [101:22] which we hadn't seen before [101:23] where the The Daily Show had become you [101:25] know from my experience of The Daily [101:27] Show was much more of an online show [101:29] than had ever been before um most of the [101:32] time I watch The Daily Show I'd be [101:33] watching it on YouTube or I'd be [101:34] watching it on clips that were going [101:36] around the internet and you know the [101:37] billions and billions of views it was [101:38] they doing it that point why would [101:40] someone leave that [101:42] situation I don't know why someone would [101:44] leave it why did you leave it because it [101:46] it was time it was just time how'd you [101:49] know I don't know that's that's [101:51] something I've always felt I've known in [101:53] life life and I don't know why like the [101:55] fight yeah but but not in a negative way [101:59] this is this is more okay so so here's [102:01] the thing I think part of it comes from [102:04] where I am from and maybe you'll relate [102:05] to this as somebody from from the [102:08] UK in South Africa TV shows [102:12] end we've never had a TV show except [102:15] maybe like one soap opera but we've [102:16] never had TV shows that run for 10 [102:20] Seasons or 20 season that's not a thing [102:22] it it ends and it doesn't end because [102:25] it's bad it ends it just [102:28] ends and I I look at some of my favorite [102:30] creates of things you know like I look [102:33] at like Seinfeld they were like all [102:35] right it's done the network was like we [102:38] can we can give you more we can do more [102:39] they're like yeah but we it's done we we [102:42] just feel like it's [102:43] done you [102:45] know sometimes things can be done and [102:48] and for me I think there were there were [102:50] multiple reasons you know one was [102:53] definitely the [102:55] pandemic I took for granted that the [102:58] pandemic was a moment where many people [103:01] were forced to be at home but then you [103:03] know the the silver lining of that [103:05] terrible period for many people was that [103:07] they got to like just like pause for a [103:09] moment you know many people will tell [103:10] you the story of how they're like man [103:11] during the [103:12] pandemic I just like paused and I you [103:15] know we didn't I didn't I was making the [103:17] show from home and I was I was just [103:19] going at it and I I I'm I'm really glad [103:22] and I'm Lu that I got to do that because [103:24] it it sort of shielded me from some of [103:26] the panic that came with the pandemic of [103:28] what are you doing what are you not [103:29] doing where's life going I was just like [103:30] I'm just doing my show I'm just doing [103:31] the show I'm doing the show I'm doing [103:32] the show find a way to do it from home [103:34] shoot it using iPhones we didn't even [103:36] have like cameras we didn't have a crew [103:37] we didn't have anyone it was just me [103:39] David cuz he lived in the same building [103:40] and then the other David and it was just [103:42] three people you know physically making [103:44] a thing that's supposed to take many [103:46] many many people you know but here you [103:50] are and you're doing this but you but [103:51] you're virtual and you're not in the [103:52] same room as people and you and you [103:54] can't travel and and I was I was [103:56] experiencing all of this I I couldn't go [103:58] back to South Africa I couldn't travel [103:59] the world I couldn't and one of the big [104:02] things I learned during the pandemic was [104:05] I had made my life about work and I had [104:08] made everything else [104:09] secondary right so I would see my [104:13] friends if I did not have work I would [104:17] travel with my friends if I did not have [104:19] work I would come to your wedding if I [104:21] did not have work [104:23] but work was the thing and everyone in [104:25] my life knew this they were like oh yeah [104:27] work you know Trevor if you're not [104:29] working can you they'd almost say that [104:30] to me and on the other side of the [104:34] pandemic I realized I was [104:36] like I I can do the daily I looked up [104:39] and I was like wow it's been it's been [104:40] eight years of me being at The Daily [104:42] Show seven years of me hosting one year [104:44] of me being a you know a contributor at [104:47] times when John Stewart was there [104:49] but I was like you sort of can do this [104:52] forever [104:53] but but maybe but what what else can you [104:56] do where else can you be how can you [104:59] spend your time what what would you like [105:00] to do and how would you like to do it um [105:04] I learned so many things at The Daily [105:05] Show I'm eternally grateful for [105:08] them but I also would like to learn more [105:10] things even in the years that I haven't [105:12] been there I've relearned and reemed [105:15] that politics isn't a binary it's not [105:18] blue and red that's that's an illusion [105:20] there aren't two ideas for every problem [105:24] that's that's fake there are there are a [105:26] multitude of ways to discuss any issue [105:29] and any topic but if you stay in one [105:32] place for long enough then in a good way [105:34] and in a bad way you start to perceive [105:36] that as as reality and [105:38] so you know there were many things when [105:41] it when it came to me leaving The Daily [105:43] Show but I I just felt like yeah it's [105:44] time you you scared scared yeah of of [105:49] sometimes people get scared when they [105:50] have such a high Post in soci Society um [105:55] that they might be losing something they [105:59] could never get back or they might you [106:01] know it oh that's [106:03] fascinating I'm thinking about the [106:05] average person listening to this now [106:07] who's in their job and they make might [106:09] might be a lawyer who's climbed the [106:10] ladder yeah and they've got this sort of [106:12] internal voice saying something isn't [106:14] right here but this fear that keeps them [106:15] trapped in places the loss aversion even [106:19] if you're miserable this this the power [106:21] of loss aversion can just hold people [106:22] people in place I read this crazy study [106:25] with Dr Daniel kman I believe it was [106:27] Daniel kman the famous yeah yeah right [106:30] going he he did the studies where if you [106:31] drop like a dollar on the floor yes the [106:33] pain of losing the dollar is equal to [106:35] the pain of finding three yes so in life [106:39] you don't just need you know equal [106:40] reward to to sacrifice something you [106:42] need two or three times the reward to [106:44] leave well I will say this first and [106:46] foremost I was lucky I wasn't miserable [106:49] you know I wasn't like I I I didn't have [106:51] like a ah I hate this or I [106:55] no but but I did want to turn and focus [106:58] my life on something more more yeah like [107:01] I wanted to spend more time with my [107:03] loved ones I wanted to spend more time [107:06] with my people I wanted to spend more [107:08] time in South Africa I wanted to spend [107:10] more time learning other languages and [107:12] traveling I wanted to spend more time [107:14] practicing comedy in other countries was [107:16] that a feeling yeah and what is that [107:18] feeling that [107:20] because yeah I'm trying to understand [107:22] the feeling or the emotion that tells [107:24] you [107:26] that so I I guess it goes to the Now [107:29] sort of cliche but still I think very [107:31] apt phrase You Don't Know What You've [107:32] Got Till It's [107:34] Gone the pandemic showed me like all the [107:38] things I I I even talk about this for [107:40] people it it it showed me all the things [107:43] that I didn't value that I should have [107:46] like when the pandemic hits If we're [107:48] honest we didn't care that we couldn't [107:49] go to the movies or we couldn't like [107:51] it's not it's not about the stuff [107:53] is that we couldn't do it with our [107:54] people you couldn't see your friends you [107:57] couldn't be with other human beings you [107:59] couldn't be in a space together where [108:01] people are cheering or singing or [108:02] laughing or you you couldn't be with [108:05] people and I don't know about you but [108:08] during the pandemic I wasn't sitting [108:10] there thinking to myself ah I I work [108:14] work is the thing I could do more [108:16] of no I was thinking to myself wow my [108:20] people my all my friends that are Sou AF [108:23] were trapped in South Africa couldn't [108:24] leave couldn't come to me I couldn't go [108:25] to them couldn't see my [108:27] family and I wasn't even big on that [108:30] it's not even like I was like I've [108:31] always got to go home to see my family I [108:32] just go when I'd go but now I realize [108:34] like wow this this is just again it's [108:38] fleeting and you and and I had to ask [108:40] myself Trevor what are you trying to [108:42] achieve in your life where where do you [108:44] want it to go where do you want it to [108:46] end you know what's more important to [108:49] you the the ratings and the success of [108:52] this show show and this idea or the [108:54] ratings on the success of your [108:55] friendships and your [108:56] relationships you know and I and I do [108:58] think in life you have to let go of [109:01] something old to to grab onto something [109:03] new [109:04] and that that was a decision for me that [109:07] because I I couldn't I can't be in two [109:09] places at once and The Daily Show is all [109:11] consuming you cannot be you know sort of [109:14] part-time in it as an idea you know in [109:17] fact John and I joke now but now he gets [109:19] to do it weekly and I think if anything [109:21] he'd never go back to doing it daily [109:22] because he knows how all consuming it [109:23] can be like I I didn't just do The Daily [109:27] Show when I was there I would do The [109:29] Daily Show when I was there and then I [109:30] would leave and I would read the news [109:32] and I'll keep up with the news and I'll [109:33] try and keep up with all the news and [109:34] I'm reading the guardian and I'm I'm [109:36] reading BBC and then I'm reading like [109:38] right Wings sites I'm reading bright [109:39] Barts and I'm I'm reading what's on [109:41] conservative media and then I'm reading [109:43] you know the Telegraph and The Economist [109:45] and that's all I'm doing consuming news [109:47] news news news news news news news get [109:49] get more news get more news barely read [109:51] a fiction book in year just like more [109:53] news I need information and news Okay [109:55] economists analysis what's happening how [109:57] how do I put this together what's [109:58] happening elzero okay okay think about [110:00] that what's going on in them Times of [110:01] India what's happening what's happening [110:03] what's happening what's happening it's a [110:04] lot yeah aot the brain it's too much and [110:07] especially for someone with your brain [110:09] if I say so myself from what how you've [110:11] described it someone who's so sort of [110:13] hyper sensitive and aware um and it's [110:16] someone who appears to me to be a little [110:18] bit of an empath I you said you know [110:20] when we said you're good at you feel [110:22] things [110:24] yeah I the the you know what it did [110:25] teach me and this is something I I tell [110:27] everyone till this day give yourself a [110:29] break from the news give yourself a [110:32] break we've we've we've been told and [110:35] we've been conditioned to believe that [110:37] we all need to keep up with the [110:39] news it's a lie it's an [110:42] illusion you'll know what's happening in [110:45] fact if you read the news once a week I [110:47] promise you you will be as informed as [110:48] somebody who's reading it every single [110:49] day you know why cuz when you're reading [110:51] it every day you were caught in the [110:53] cycle of it trying to discover what it [110:55] doesn't know yet developing story [110:57] developing story developing story you'll [110:59] be shocked that what you learn when you [111:01] just read a story that sort of had the [111:03] time that it needed to [111:06] breathe there's there's less there's [111:09] less predicting there's less guessing [111:11] there's there's less pontificating this [111:13] it's just like this is what happened and [111:14] this is what we know and that's it when [111:17] was the first time you went to [111:18] therapy first time I went to therapy was [111:24] uh [111:27] 2015 2014 somewhere there yeah why did [111:30] you go to therapy I I asked this because [111:33] um for a set of reasons really but um [111:36] men in particular and in fact if you [111:38] look at the stats men of color are often [111:42] the least likely to go to therapy and [111:44] there's a complex reasons why that is [111:46] but I think it's quite important for men [111:47] that have been to therapy including [111:48] myself to to talk about why they went [111:51] and also um so sort of the journey [111:54] they've been on with it but also the [111:55] role that it's [111:56] played so I'll I'll say it in two parts [111:59] I so I went to therapy [112:02] because I fell in love with the idea [112:05] that I could learn more about myself and [112:08] why I was the way I was from somebody [112:11] who was skilled in in understanding it [112:14] in the same way that I loved Physical [112:16] Therapy mhm you know I I was like wow [112:19] you you can like move your body [112:20] differently if you've ever had physical [112:22] I therapy you know what I'm talking [112:24] about and if you haven't you should go [112:25] one day if you have anything wrong with [112:26] you long before you consider surgery and [112:28] things you'll be shocked you'll be [112:29] shocked at how your neck hasn't been [112:30] moving the way it's supposed to you'll [112:32] be shocked to realize that your back has [112:34] been like like stuck for a while you [112:37] haven't been breathing you you'll find [112:39] that your knees haven't been like you [112:41] say no but really it's it's actually [112:43] crazy to realize how much over time [112:47] you've settled [112:49] into a [112:51] restriction that's stopping you from [112:53] being yourself fully physically but [112:56] mentally as [112:57] well patterns and as you said games of [113:00] snap where you don't even realize you're [113:02] now just reacting things are happening [113:04] and you're reacting to [113:06] them and I read a bunch of books I was [113:10] like wow this is fascinating but I was [113:12] like none of it like tells me about me [113:13] per se it's very Broad and so I decided [113:17] like let me go to this place to try and [113:19] learn about who I am or if there's even [113:22] a puzzle that that I can learn a little [113:25] bit more about how did that feel the [113:27] first time you went but also telling [113:29] your friends that you're going to [113:31] therapy because there especially in 2015 [113:33] it's kind of Fallen away slowly as more [113:35] people talk about it but there is a [113:37] stigma associated with it and stigma [113:39] well everyone asked me they said what [113:40] why what's wrong that's what everyone [113:42] said to [113:43] me every everyone said the same thing [113:45] what's wrong one of my favorite ones [113:47] this wasn't a friend but I uh I I did an [113:50] interview with a um a British newspaper [113:54] uh I forget what which one it's called [113:57] maybe it's the telegraph I'm not sure [113:58] it's it's slightly conservative but but [114:01] any anyway we did this interview I'll [114:03] never forget this and the woman was very [114:05] British very Posh you know older woman [114:08] and she said to me she's like you you've [114:09] been quite outspoken about about going [114:12] to therapy and do do you still go to [114:15] therapy and I was like yes and she's [114:17] like why what's wrong with you and I [114:21] said do you do you go to therapy and she [114:23] said I don't need to and I was like well [114:25] everyone can benefit from therapy she's [114:27] like I I respectfully disagree I think I [114:30] think the the therapizing that we that [114:32] we're currently experiencing in the [114:33] world is completely unnecessary and [114:36] sometimes you you just need to take it [114:38] and move on and I was like that is the [114:40] most British thing I've ever heard in my [114:42] life um but but I get it that's what a [114:45] lot of people felt and think you know [114:47] they be like why what are you [114:49] doing what I've come to realize [114:52] is that therapy as an idea holds a [114:55] stigma but the thing that it is [114:58] doing is not just necessary but it's [115:01] actually welcomed by [115:03] everybody when you go and you have a [115:05] conversation with your friends and you [115:07] commiserate about something that's going [115:09] on in your life it's a form of therapy [115:12] you know when you confide in your loved [115:16] one the two of you are in bed at the end [115:18] of a long day and you you're telling [115:20] them about how stressful your job is and [115:22] you you you know you're telling them [115:24] about your doubts about staying in it or [115:26] not that's a form of therapy and I think [115:28] because we've given it this formalized [115:30] title that's associated with like [115:32] psychotic breaks on the most extreme [115:34] things we've now made it seem like it's [115:36] reserved for people who are only like [115:39] broken broken broken MH but we've [115:41] forgotten how necessary it is you know [115:44] like you you you go around the world and [115:45] you see cultures many of them cultures [115:48] of [115:48] color had the idea and and the and the [115:52] tradition of therapy long before it was [115:54] formalized as a concept in African [115:56] cultures you would speak to the elders [115:59] that's what you do you go and you sit [116:00] down with the elders you tell them about [116:02] your problems you go there with your [116:04] wife you go there with your family you [116:06] go any dispute you go and talk about it [116:08] there and they give you their advice and [116:10] it's based on generations of knowledge [116:12] and it's based on a communal [116:14] understanding of who you are and who [116:15] they are they've known you since you [116:16] were a child even it's a form of therapy [116:19] you know and so I think because we given [116:22] it this this like the label people I go [116:24] to therapy I realized if if you just [116:26] change that take that sentence out and [116:28] tell it to somebody and go oh yeah no [116:31] there's um a wonderful Elder who I speak [116:33] to and and they give me advice you all [116:35] of a sudden like half the people who [116:37] look at you f you be like that's very [116:38] good you must listen to your elders [116:40] that's very good you know and then in [116:42] another culture you say to somebody oh I [116:44] go to somebody who um spiritually [116:47] understands how like my brain works and [116:50] they and they connect me with myself [116:51] they be like that's very good you do [116:53] that we we we all do it you know [116:56] bartenders have been therapists for [116:59] hundreds of years you know people have [117:01] gone and gotten drunk at a bar [117:03] hairdresses yeah hairdresses it's it's a [117:06] natural thing it's just you know I [117:08] understand the stigma because there's a [117:11] terrifying notion that comes with saying [117:13] that you're broken but I I don't think [117:16] it's about saying that we're broken it's [117:18] just about like understanding our cracks [117:21] did you understand your cracks from it I [117:23] think I understood them um theoretically [117:26] my problem was never understanding them [117:29] my problem was never like understanding [117:30] them on a on a on an intellectual level [117:33] I think I've I've always been good at [117:34] that maybe even too good the thing I've [117:36] had to learn in therapy is the feeling [117:37] part not the thinking Parts what do you [117:39] mean by the feeling part so I I've [117:42] always been very good I would be able to [117:44] break down any situation to you as as [117:47] thoughts and you know an analytics in a [117:50] way mhm you go like Trevor what happened [117:52] there I would even be able to explain [117:53] like an outburst well what happened was [117:56] clearly over time this action had been [117:59] repeated and I didn't appreciate it and [118:01] so at that point I'd reached my breaking [118:03] point and I reacted like this you know [118:04] and it's but I didn't realize until I [118:06] went to therapy that I limited how much [118:09] I was saying the feeling that I was [118:11] having I felt [118:13] sad I felt mad I felt and then like you [118:17] said about tracing it back you then now [118:20] once you understand that [118:22] feeling and once you acknowledge it [118:25] you're then able to now and then even [118:26] ask yourself why do I feel this thing [118:29] why do I even [118:30] feel and start realizing that some [118:32] people can make you feel when others [118:34] can't two people can say the exact same [118:35] sentence to you only one can have an [118:37] effect why and and that was that was and [118:41] continues to be my journey and my my my [118:44] joyous challenge it's like learning how [118:46] to like feel not just think through [118:49] everything it's like really just feel [118:51] how do I feel I'm tired oh I'm I'm [118:53] resentful wow I'm I'm sad about that oh [118:56] I'm feeling a little hopeless I wow this [119:00] this feels a little melancholic this is [119:02] like really getting into those feelings [119:04] men don't do that do they they just just [119:07] drink or they just go yeah men just get [119:09] like pissed masturbate gamble yeah porn [119:12] like I'm I'm angry at you when was the [119:15] last time a male friend looked at [119:16] another male friend and said I you hurt [119:19] me you know hey man that [119:23] hurts I know you think my haircut looked [119:26] funny but the way you said it in front [119:27] of those other people it hurts hey the [119:29] way you commented on my job and how you [119:31] think it's it's the dumbest thing that [119:33] hurt me that it like it hurt me cuz I [119:36] love how you see me and I want to see [119:38] myself being special in your life and it [119:40] I felt insignificant you hurt me [119:42] man men are terrified of that you know [119:46] and so we'd rather say you pissed me off [119:50] punch you in the head I because that's [119:52] that's acceptable in society we are that [119:55] you know you said your therapist or [119:58] therapy helped you to identify this link [120:01] between ADHD and depression when did you [120:03] find out you had ADHD I got diagnosed [120:06] two years ago my friend got diagnosed [120:09] first told me about it changed his whole [120:12] life and then when he was describing [120:15] some of the symptoms I was like huh I [120:18] was like well that that's weird that [120:20] sounds a lot like me and we very [120:21] different person personality wise mhm [120:23] and then I asked him I said I said I [120:25] don't understand you I've never noticed [120:26] these things in you and he was like yeah [120:27] he was very good at hiding them he was [120:29] very good at masing them and it it was [120:32] it it hit home so much that it made me [120:35] think I I need to get diagnosed I was [120:38] like let me go and see I was like it [120:39] could it might not be but let me go and [120:42] and and find out and then I I I [120:44] remembered that when I was a kid my [120:47] school told my mom that I need to go for [120:49] a psychiatric evaluation because when I [120:51] was really young the teachers complained [120:53] they said I was just I was just all over [120:55] the place and my mom took me to a [120:59] psychiatrist and the psychiatrist [121:01] diagnosed me with ADHD but back then it [121:03] was called [121:05] hyperactivity and my mom the the [121:07] therapist like oh your son is you know [121:09] has ADHD or is hyperactive and so you [121:12] must stay away from these foods and must [121:14] do this and you must do that and you [121:15] should could give him treatment and my [121:16] mom was like we'll pray for him let's [121:18] keep it [121:20] moving she did she just didn't know and [121:23] she was like no this is not a [121:24] thing you know and then I now as an [121:28] adult went wait a minute was that what [121:30] that [121:31] was and then I went went through the [121:34] like real assessment like I mean not [121:36] like an online quiz you know the one [121:38] where you sit down it's multiple visits [121:40] you do different types of tests [121:42] multimodal tests and you go through it [121:44] all and then I learned about my ADHD and [121:47] I think that's another thing like I'm a [121:48] little worried about now in society is [121:50] just like when we talk about and Ai and [121:53] everything we flatten these these these [121:54] words and so what then starts to happen [121:56] is now I meet people everywhere [121:57] everyone's got like I've got ADHD I've [121:58] got ADHD I've got I can't watch a movie [122:01] for more than 10 minutes I've got ADHD I [122:03] lost my keys yeah and it's like no you [122:05] can be forgetful and not have ADHD you [122:07] can have a short attention span and not [122:09] have [122:10] ADHD you can you can be many things and [122:12] not have ADHD right but even when you [122:16] have ADHD you don't all have the same [122:18] ADHD mhm you know some people are [122:21] inattentive some people are hyperactive [122:23] some people have learned coping [122:25] mechanisms some people haven't in women [122:28] and men it it it it presents differently [122:30] at times so I think we must also be [122:33] careful you know like now it's just [122:34] become like yeah and then like on Tik [122:36] Tok hey how how to deal with your ADHD [122:38] it's like wait wait wait wait wait let's [122:40] you know it's it's good that we're [122:42] talking about these things but let's not [122:44] be quick to you know to all have it and [122:47] have the same version of it and all [122:49] think that all of our treatments are [122:50] exactly the same Etc but that yeah [122:52] that's so I think I mine [122:55] was I think it's now 3 four years ago [122:59] this link between ADHD and depression [123:01] I've you're the [123:03] first person I've interviewed I've heard [123:05] about this before but you're the first [123:07] person that I've spoken to who has said [123:09] that their Depression was linked to [123:11] their ADHD yeah can you explain to me [123:13] the link and how that sort of manifests [123:16] so I I didn't understand it but you know [123:18] as I understand ADHD now what what [123:22] fundamentally happened in my brain and I [123:24] guess it'll happen to some people as [123:25] well [123:26] is I would have an inability to choose [123:29] where to place my focus right one of the [123:32] things so I would either be hyperfocused [123:36] by something that I shouldn't or I would [123:38] have no Focus for the thing that I [123:40] should so I could be having a [123:41] conversation with you here and let's say [123:45] there was a car outside revving its [123:47] engine at some point that's all I'd be [123:49] able to think about even though you're [123:50] speaking to me [123:52] that's all I'd be able to think about is [123:53] like who's revving this engine who's [123:55] driving this car what is going on out [123:56] there what kind of car is that sounds [123:58] like a V6 is that a truck what are they [124:02] huh something wrong no it's and now [124:04] you'd be talking and then at the end of [124:06] the sentence I just hear the last three [124:07] words you said and then I'd try and like [124:09] put it all together and act like I was I [124:11] was paying [124:12] attention but what my brain was also [124:15] doing in that paying attention thing was [124:17] it was focusing on a recurring thought [124:20] or recurring idea that I couldn't let go [124:22] of and that's sometimes where the [124:24] depression would kick in is that I would [124:26] be perpetually stuck in a loop of either [124:30] meaninglessness or what I like to call [124:32] personally it's like my my zoom was [124:35] stuck on my lens you know like I think I [124:38] think the way you see life is is [124:40] literally like a lens I shouldn't have [124:41] done that with my hands in a video [124:43] that's going to be we can photo yeah [124:45] just going to meme that but anyway like [124:47] I think of a of a lens right and what [124:50] you're doing with a lens all the time [124:51] when you're getting focused when you're [124:52] zooming is you're trying to place your [124:54] focus on the object that you're trying [124:56] to place it on if you zoom out too wide [124:59] you can't see the object if you zoom in [125:01] too much you also can't see the object [125:03] you've got to find the right Zoom so [125:05] that you know okay we're now looking at [125:06] a cup if you zoom in too much you just [125:08] go like I'm looking at a at at Silver [125:10] I'm looking at a color you zoom out too [125:12] much you can't even see that we're in [125:13] this room MH you know I'm looking at [125:16] people they like no there's a cup oh I [125:17] didn't see it and so what was happening [125:19] in my brain was I would get stuck in a [125:22] zoom and I would just Loop so sometimes [125:25] it would be me going huh that was an [125:28] interesting day at [125:29] work oh I go to work tomorrow then I go [125:32] to work the next day then the next day [125:35] and then the next day then there's a [125:36] weekend but then I'm back at work then [125:39] wait a minute it's just weeks and [125:40] weekends Forever This Never it just [125:43] keeps on going and then and then one day [125:46] you're like you're 90 and then and then [125:48] you're dead and wait what why am I going [125:50] to work tomorrow what what's the point [125:52] of what what is happening here this [125:53] makes absolutely no and then I'll just [125:55] sit there and I couldn't get that out of [125:57] my head I I literally could not get that [125:59] thought out of my head and I would just [126:00] sit there like what is the point of this [126:03] what what are we [126:05] doing couldn't get it out of my head and [126:07] how does that feel when you can't get [126:09] that out of your head what is the [126:11] feeling for me it felt like life was [126:15] meaningless like the concept of it was [126:17] meaningless I was like we're a blip what [126:19] are we doing here all of this means [126:21] nothing all of this is [126:23] pointless you know is that an exact [126:26] example of something that would make no [126:28] this is an exact example this is [126:29] something that would get stuck in my [126:31] head because I because I because I [126:32] didn't know with ADHD like that I was [126:36] hyperfocusing on this thing so in the [126:37] same way that I could hyperfocus on you [126:41] know learning about I don't know a [126:43] discipline you know industrial design or [126:45] artificial intelligence I would just you [126:47] you know what I'm talking about with [126:48] that I'd get hyperfocused and then I'd [126:49] learn everything about it and I'd read [126:51] every book and I talk to every person I [126:52] could and I would watch everything and I [126:54] and all of a sudden you know in like 3 [126:56] months you'd meet me and I'd go like yep [126:57] I've read that book I've read that book [126:59] I've read that and I'm obsessed with [127:00] this thing and then one day it just [127:01] disappears now that's fine for like [127:03] learning let's say but it would be [127:05] terrible for oh gosh an idea of like [127:08] sadness or an idea of feeling like life [127:11] is going nowhere or it can't be good for [127:15] pig [127:19] famous it's like the worst thing [127:22] because you have con like meaningless [127:25] feedback and the brain is trying to [127:26] interpret a lot of it exactly if you get [127:29] one of those things stuck in your head [127:30] gosh yeah and then mine also like it [127:33] depends on some people have it some [127:34] don't but like patent recognition people [127:36] with ADHD are generally can be very good [127:38] with patn recognition probably why [127:40] they're good Comedians and so what [127:42] happens then unfortunately is you can [127:45] also start to see the patterns in life [127:48] that can make life seem meaningless [127:52] but once I once I got my ADHD diagnosis [127:55] and once I understood what was happening [127:57] I really did start to see it as as a [127:59] lens and anytime I find myself in those [128:01] moments now because I don't I don't take [128:02] medication you know I took medication [128:05] like once or twice I like it didn't help [128:06] me in my comedy I actually need to be [128:09] erratic and unfocused when I'm doing [128:10] comedy and I'm lucky that I live a life [128:13] where I don't have to be in an office at [128:14] a time and do a thing in a certain way [128:16] and you know but in coping or in like [128:19] learning how to deal with it I've [128:21] learned just about like that lens and [128:23] I'll talk to myself you know I go [128:25] there's me and there's the Observer like [128:27] I'm the Observer of my thoughts I'm not [128:28] the thoughts and then I I'll talk to [128:31] myself so I'll be like man you do this [128:32] tomorrow and then the next day and then [128:34] life is me then I go like it is it is [128:36] meaningless unless unless you zoom in [128:39] and then if you zoom in a little bit [128:40] more all of a sudden wow it's almost [128:42] like the most meaningful thing this [128:45] conversation with this person is the [128:46] most meaningful conversation you will [128:47] ever have in your life this is it this [128:50] is everything that it is [128:52] this hug that you're getting from your [128:53] friend is the most important thing you [128:55] will ever experience this meal that [128:57] you're having just taste these [128:59] ingredients what what is taste feel it [129:03] on your on your on your taste buds and [129:05] and like one of the tools they they [129:06] teach you like with ADHD sometimes you [129:08] know when when it when it makes you go [129:09] into anxiety or depression is to just [129:11] notice things practice being present [129:14] walk down the street and like look like [129:16] really look and say out loud what you're [129:20] seeing and at first it's very stupid [129:22] that is a red door that is a green roof [129:25] that is a pigeon sitting on the gutter [129:28] that is a gutter that is a gray car that [129:30] is driven by and you'll be shocked at [129:31] how just doing that gets your brain out [129:35] of that Loop and then something's going [129:36] to catch your eye or something will [129:38] spark and by the end of that walk you [129:40] won't be in the mood that you were in [129:41] when you started that [129:43] walk did you ever feel hopeless when you [129:46] spiraled into this sort of rumination [129:49] was there ever a moment through this [129:50] journey of understanding your depression [129:51] that you felt hopeless I didn't I didn't [129:54] I this is this is going to sound really [129:55] weird to [129:58] you the I have this I have this strange [130:02] thing that will happen to me sometimes [130:03] in life where where I feel like it's [130:04] it's I go it's all meaningless and it's [130:06] nothing and it's whatever it's very very [130:09] random often times I've just learned [130:11] sometimes fatigue you know I've learned [130:13] rules now for myself and for anyone out [130:15] there really especially if you have [130:17] ADHD before you go through anything or [130:19] before you think about anything like in [130:21] intently and intensely when you're [130:23] struggling ask yourself a few simple [130:25] questions have you [130:28] slept have you eaten well like have you [130:30] eaten good food have you moved your body [130:34] and have you spent a little time [130:36] breathing if you answer yes to all of [130:38] those questions you can continue to [130:39] pontificate about the meaning of life [130:42] and everything that you're going through [130:43] if you have not just fulfill all of them [130:45] and then see if you're still feeling the [130:47] same on the other side and you'll be [130:48] shocked how often times you aren't so [130:50] the one thing that happen to me this is [130:52] this is so ridiculous I know sometimes [130:54] when I'd be in that place I'd feel a [130:55] little [130:56] hopeless right and I would think to [131:00] myself I hate this this [131:03] sucks I I I don't know what I want to do [131:07] with life anymore never like suicidal [131:09] but just like I just don't know if this [131:11] life thing what is this and then I would [131:15] go if if it was going to end tomorrow [131:19] then what what would I do like today [131:21] then [131:22] be like you know what I'm going to do [131:23] I'm going to go on stage I'm going to [131:25] tell that joke that I've been terrified [131:27] to tell just going to say it because I'm [131:28] leaving anyway life is ending it's going [131:30] it's all going away because it's all [131:31] going to [ __ ] right just go and say that [131:33] go tell that joke I'll be like you know [131:35] what I should also I should also I [131:36] should also throw a party I mean your [131:38] life's ending anyway it's just throw [131:40] like one just like one just like [ __ ] [131:42] off party that you just like go into it [131:44] and and and I think of all the things [131:47] and I I mean this genuinely I think of [131:49] all the things that I would do with like [131:51] giant middle fingers on my way out and [131:55] the smile that it brings to my [131:58] face I can't explain to you because [132:01] every time it makes me realize that [132:03] that's all I should be trying to do not [132:05] in a in a way where I don't I don't [132:07] consider other people but it's what I [132:09] should be trying to do and it's made me [132:12] realize that at times not everyone but [132:14] for me and I think some people would [132:16] probably feel this sometimes what's [132:19] happened in our lives and I know I had [132:22] this is like you feel [132:25] like you don't you don't realize that [132:28] you've stopped sort of like running [132:30] jumping smiling screaming you've stopped [132:33] being everything you can be and you've [132:36] just You' started existing as one [132:38] version of [132:41] yourself and sometimes just having the [132:44] idea of just like you know what I mean [132:46] take all your clothes off and run [132:47] through the streets screaming and and [132:49] what would you say and who would you say [132:50] it to and why would you say you'd be [132:52] shocked at how that gives you an inkling [132:54] of what you're not doing for yourself [132:56] some people might be like I'll tell my [132:58] dad to go screw himself I would say to [133:00] you oh this is probably you realizing [133:03] that you don't set boundaries with your [133:05] dad and you don't communicate well maybe [133:06] you don't tell your dad how you hurt [133:07] your feelings or I man I'll I'll go to [133:10] work and I'll well yeah maybe this is [133:13] not the job for you you know I'll I'll [133:15] party all night maybe you're not taking [133:17] enough time to have fun I you'll be [133:19] shocked at how like sometimes you [133:21] not not a tantrum but it's just like [133:23] your your screw you [133:25] choice is what you sort of should be [133:27] doing in a in a in a in a responsible [133:29] way and and that I promise you now in [133:32] all those moments where I felt like it's [133:35] hopeless with the moments where I'd come [133:37] back even more I think to myself huh [133:41] maybe I should try aiming to get to that [133:43] place and therein in a strange way lies [133:47] the meaning for me it's such a beautiful [133:49] thing that they can be really important [133:51] answers in such a desperate state but [133:54] but I completely understand what you're [133:55] saying cuz I played out the example in [133:57] my head that this was my last day I [133:58] thought what are the things I'd love to [133:59] do and again it's such a so clear to me [134:01] that those are the things that I I'm [134:03] missing right now from my life my [134:05] experience exactly you mentioned dads in [134:07] there and you did reunite with your [134:08] biological father yeah sort of 24 years [134:12] old 25 years old when you reunited with [134:14] him I believe yeah 20 something [134:16] somewhere there what's that like is that [134:20] is that com licated or is that oh [134:23] definitely definitely and why did you [134:25] why did you reunite with him because [134:27] well I reunited with him because my [134:29] mother gave me a key piece of advice [134:31] which was valuable and she said to me [134:33] she said don't take for granted the [134:35] answers that a person can hold of you [134:38] that you may not even know you needed [134:39] for [134:40] yourself you know and I think parents [134:43] have that with us especially if parents [134:44] are willing to engage with you you know [134:46] if these are human beings that that have [134:49] fundamentally shaped you you are you are [134:51] half of them you know they are half of [134:55] you it's it's it's a weird thing that [134:58] you that you can take for [135:00] granted and [135:03] so for me like the the gift of [135:05] reconnecting with my father was [135:07] reconnecting with him as as a man a [135:10] young man all be at a man you know are [135:12] you scared I scared isn't the right word [135:15] I I [135:17] was I was unsure but I wasn't scared you [135:21] know it's [135:22] like it's that that feeling of the [135:25] unknown what what's going to happen what [135:27] are we like will we get along will we [135:28] not get along I remember him but as a [135:31] boy and does he even remember me does he [135:32] even like me does he you have all these [135:34] ideas is there a part of you that wants [135:36] to know if he if he loves you if he [135:40] cares about you I think I think [135:41] definitely and I but I but I think we [135:43] don't even think of it like that and I [135:45] didn't even think of it like that does [135:46] that make sense because because I [135:48] assumed the love cuz I'd seen it my [135:50] whole life from him so I assumed the [135:53] love but I didn't I think the thing [135:56] that's adjacent to that love is the [135:58] choosing yeah you know sometimes you you [136:02] assume that parents love you but you're [136:04] not sure that they choose you [136:07] maybe uh and so that was that was [136:10] interesting for me and then seeing parts [136:13] of myself that I didn't even know came [136:15] from another person it it it's it's [136:18] fascinating frustrating and liberating [136:20] at the same time although he wasn't [136:21] around all the time did you learn [136:23] lessons from him when you met him when [136:24] you started to sort of rekindle your [136:26] relationship with [136:27] him I think I did but not lessons that [136:30] were taught lessons that were [136:34] witnessed I think most of the lessons [136:36] that we learned from our parents aren't [136:38] taught to be honest what did you learn [136:40] from him I definitely think from him I [136:43] learned how important it is to maintain [136:45] your [136:46] friendships you know [136:48] he he's lived a long life [136:51] he older than my mom but even as he's [136:55] gone into his old age he still has [136:57] friends he still has Community he still [136:59] has like he he showed me how wonderful [137:02] that thing is you know because [137:04] friendship I feel like friendship has [137:06] has in many ways been been given the [137:07] short end of the stick in in the world [137:09] of [137:10] relationships you know people understand [137:13] the value of like parents and children [137:14] and then people understand like romantic [137:16] relationship they go oh that's the most [137:17] of course your spouse your but your [137:19] friendships are one of the few [137:21] relationships that don't necessarily [137:23] rely on like a like a a transaction in a [137:28] way it's like purely [137:30] Choice whenever I speak to entrepreneurs [137:32] there's one problem that always comes up [137:34] but today's sponsor LinkedIn has a [137:36] solution and I think you'll want to hear [137:38] it connecting your business with the [137:39] Right audience can be tough you can [137:41] spend a lot of time and money trying to [137:43] get it right and still regardless fall [137:45] short of that especially when it comes [137:47] to B2B marketing where you're not doing [137:49] business with one person you're dealing [137:51] with teams making decisions together [137:53] through Linkedin ads you can connect [137:55] with an extensive Professional Network [137:57] of over a billion members including 10 [138:00] million seite Executives you can also [138:02] Target specifically by job title [138:04] industry company and more it's no [138:07] surprise to me that LinkedIn is reported [138:08] to be the highest returning paid social [138:10] platform in the world to help you get [138:12] started LinkedIn is offering a $100 [138:14] credit to launch your first campaign on [138:16] the platform just go to linkedin.com [138:19] doac 24 to claim your credit now that's [138:22] linkedin.com [138:23] doac c24 terms and conditions [138:27] apply Patricia she is so C she's your [138:30] mother yeah she's so Central to your [138:34] story um to much of the wisdom you have [138:38] you talk about continuing the legacy of [138:40] her Legacy I guess and everything that [138:42] she's instilled in you she um she she [138:45] sounds like a superwoman in every sense [138:47] of the word the the the the apparent [138:50] resilience and I say apparent because I [138:52] don't know how to define the [138:55] perseverance in the face of so many [138:57] struggles other than using the word [138:58] resilience is astounding I found I won't [139:01] show this picture either but I found [139:02] this beautiful photo of you which [139:03] reminded me a little bit of oh that one [139:04] you can because I've posted it online [139:06] there you go one of the things I've [139:07] struggled with is with the disconnect [139:09] between me and my parents is I've I've [139:11] struggled with the thought that there's [139:14] going to be words [139:16] unsaid oh and I I asked some of my guest [139:20] gu this about this because I think [139:22] because I'm trying to navigate it for in [139:24] myself and within my own [139:26] life if you had a 60-second phone call [139:29] with Patricia and you knew it was going [139:30] to be your last what would the words be [139:33] what would you choose to say oh I I [139:36] think it would just be I love you I love [139:38] you thank you thank you thank you thank [139:39] you I love you I love you thank you so [139:41] much I love [139:43] you that's pretty and genuinely that's [139:45] pretty much it [139:47] because uh I'm I'm really lucky that [139:50] I've I've said and I continue to try to [139:52] say you know most of what I [139:55] should um to my mom and there's always [139:58] new things that come up and then I try [140:00] to say them and we we have beautiful [140:01] conversations you know like these days [140:03] we take like drives like drive her to go [140:06] and buy a new chicken for her he's got [140:08] like a little chicken it's not even a [140:10] farm I don't even know what to call it [140:11] it's like a little Squad of chickens but [140:14] I just I'll just take her for a drive [140:15] and then we just talk about life and we [140:17] we just we talk and we share and we [140:18] laugh and we but we like it's like the [140:21] nothing moments you know no agenda no [140:24] like there's no thing we have to do or [140:26] not do I sort of slip into her life you [140:29] know I find her in the garden and I just [140:31] stand around while she does her [140:32] gardening and then listen talk share but [140:35] really that's if if that was the call [140:37] now it would just be thank you thank you [140:38] I love you so much thank you very much I [140:40] love you I love you thank you so much [140:42] and I guess that early experience where [140:43] she was shot by yeah your um really kind [140:46] of allowed you to get the perspective [140:49] yeah yeah definitely for most of us us [140:50] would that definitely have the [140:52] perspective she sounds like a remarkable [140:54] person when you talk about continuing [140:56] her Legacy how how' you do that well she [141:01] would challenge me and say my my goal is [141:03] to improve on her Legacy you know um my [141:07] mom's definitely [141:08] remarkable um but as she would say it's [141:11] you know by the grace of God it's not by [141:12] her hand alone [141:15] and I think one of the things that I've [141:18] Loved most about my relationship with my [141:20] mom is that I've come to [141:24] learn that part of what makes her so [141:26] exceptional is the fact that she's a [141:28] flawed human being she's not perfect the [141:30] there are some wounds that she's [141:32] inflicted on me that I need to now deal [141:33] with in my life because she's been my [141:36] parents you know and and this is this is [141:39] sometimes the Paradox that we struggle [141:40] with in in our lives as people I think [141:43] we we've been we've been so [141:45] indoctrinated into this like binary way [141:47] of [141:48] thinking that we then want to go we had [141:50] great parents or we had terrible parents [141:52] sometimes you had a parent who was great [141:54] at some things and terrible at other [141:56] things you know and if they did love you [141:59] they were doing their best sometimes [142:00] they didn't and I think that's tough for [142:01] some people to acknowledge but if they [142:03] loved you they were doing their best and [142:05] they tried their best and they failed at [142:07] other things and that's fine but you [142:11] know my goal and my dream is to as my [142:14] mom always said to me and my brothers [142:16] like be better than the L how are you [142:18] thinking about fatherhood [142:21] well I I go back and forth on [142:23] it because on on the one hand sometimes [142:26] I think you see it's like the zooming [142:28] the lens sometimes I think about like [142:29] the planet and the world I'm like oh you [142:31] bringing kids you going to bring kids [142:33] and then I'm like yeah but the world's [142:35] probably been terrible for everyone [142:36] who's been in it at every single given [142:38] time so is that a reason to not have a [142:40] child and then I asked myself the other [142:42] question I'm like okay but what do I [142:44] think I'm bringing to this child and [142:45] then I thought to myself oh do I want to [142:47] have a kid with ADHD how hard was that [142:49] for them and what is it going to be like [142:51] and and then I'm like ah but maybe it'll [142:53] be great because you know ADH and maybe [142:55] they'll have it and maybe they won't and [142:56] maybe like so I I go back and forth on [142:58] all of these things the you know the one [143:00] thing I I would [143:02] hope is that I will give my child two [143:06] things that are important and that is [143:07] number one being chosen number two being [143:10] considered you know I think a lot of [143:12] people have [143:13] children but they may not choose them [143:17] and they don't consider them you know [143:19] and that's where you'll hear parents and [143:20] saying things like you know I brought [143:22] you into this world it's like yeah [143:24] exactly so you should consider me a [143:26] little bit more you know many parents [143:29] treat children as if the children owe [143:31] them for introducing them into existence [143:34] when I think it's the other way around [143:36] so yeah I I I think to myself I I like [143:40] the idea of it and I do like the puzzle [143:43] of it um but just like I learned from [143:45] The Daily Show and every other major [143:48] undertaking uh if I know that that it's [143:50] going to be terrible then I'll probably [143:52] have a great time but if I think that [143:54] it's going to be rewarding and wonderful [143:56] I'm going to hate a lot of the moments [143:57] in it how does Romantica fit into all of [144:00] this for you because you're well you [144:03] were you know during those Daily Show [144:05] days working every hour of the day yeah [144:07] you were fighting in every sense of the [144:10] word to make this show a success you're [144:13] living in an apartment with a guy who [144:16] who's also doing the same I don't know [144:18] where it fits I can't see it it didn't [144:20] in many you know and that that was the [144:21] price I paid you know that does it fit [144:24] now yeah I think it definitely does I [144:26] think it definitely does like it's it's [144:27] a weird thing to say but as I've have [144:29] become more comfortable with the notion [144:31] that I could be not in a relationship [144:34] forever like you know as people say by [144:36] yourself but I don't think of that [144:37] because of friends and Community but as [144:39] I've gotten more comfortable with that I [144:42] think I've become more able to be in a [144:45] relationship because I I think more and [144:48] more I've thought of a relationship is [144:50] something I can bring value to as [144:52] opposed to the thing that's supposed to [144:53] just do everything for me mhm you know [144:55] and I think before I was only looking at [144:57] it that way without realizing [144:59] it's Trevor um these books are beautiful [145:03] for so many different [145:05] reasons borner crime is one of the most [145:08] um it's so funny because it's not my [145:10] story but it's everyone's story in so [145:12] many ways and I think that's why it's [145:14] such a beautiful book it's it's the [145:16] story of a guy who didn't feel like he F [145:19] fit in his relationship ship with his [145:20] mother his his love for his mother his [145:22] journey to the very very top of a [145:24] mountain um and all of the important [145:26] wisdom that he's learned along the way [145:28] um that that I think is so relatable [145:30] even though it's not not my story and [145:32] some books don't achieve that but your [145:34] books achieve that so well and this book [145:36] is the first time I've ever described a [145:37] book as being truly truly beautiful it [145:40] comes out on the 8th of October it's [145:42] called into the uncut grass and it's so [145:44] wise powerful but beautiful a book that [145:47] and silly I hope people remember that [145:48] it's silly I would love to read this to [145:51] my kids but I it's funny because I [145:52] thought when I first opened it and I [145:53] thought okay you know it's um there's [145:55] illustrations throughout the book and [145:56] then I started reading the words and you [145:59] realize that it's both both applicable [146:01] and Powerful to a young person but also [146:03] something you could have read alone at [146:05] my age of 32 it's such a beautiful book [146:08] and it follows in the tradition of the [146:10] the boy the fox in the mall [146:12] it's it's books that I loved you know [146:14] the boy the F The Little Prince you know [146:17] there's so many books like that that I [146:18] think ins spired me to think [146:21] about [146:23] rediscovering our [146:25] childlike um curiosity uh ability to to [146:30] to think Beyond ourselves our [146:32] imagination like almost like [146:34] re-remembering [146:36] yourself before many of the hurts you [146:39] know and then and then going from there [146:41] and so and connection is such a [146:43] prevalent theme throughout this the [146:45] Journey of connection of love and all of [146:47] those things and I'm going to link that [146:49] below so everyone needs to to read that [146:50] book it's so beautiful read it for [146:51] yourself read it for your kids um read [146:53] it with your partner we have a closing [146:55] tradition on this podcast where the last [146:56] guest leaves a question for the next [146:57] guest not knowing who they're going to [146:58] be leaving the question for wow okay [147:02] tell us about the lowest point of your [147:03] life how did you overcome it what [147:06] lessons did you learn from the [147:09] experience [147:11] h i funny enough I think we talked about [147:13] it I I I would safely say the lowest [147:16] point of my life was my mother being [147:18] shot so it's crazy that we did speak [147:21] about it um how did I overcome it I [147:26] don't think I would be so [147:29] um arrogant as to say that I have [147:31] overcome it I think I'm constantly [147:33] working to overcome it you do you ever [147:35] overcome these things I don't know to be [147:37] honest with you I really don't know [147:39] because I you know it's it's it's [147:40] strange because I don't know what that [147:43] means or doesn't mean does it mean You' [147:44] you don't think of it anymore does it [147:46] mean it doesn't affect you anymore I [147:48] don't know what the answer to that [147:49] question is you know maybe overcoming [147:51] something means that it no now no longer [147:54] negatively influences you or I I don't [147:56] know I don't think that we have like one [147:58] fixed idea of overcoming something that [148:01] isn't tangible you know it's not like [148:03] scaling a mountain so um the the honest [148:06] answer I would give is yeah I just I [148:08] just give myself Grace and I and I try [148:10] and work at it I I try and [148:13] understand [148:15] that it's all a work in progress you [148:18] know one of my one of my favorite things [148:19] I I learn learned recently and I guess [148:21] it speaks to this is um I should [148:23] remember the name I'm so I'm ter I [148:25] always remember stories and not like the [148:26] names of things or the dates but there's [148:28] a a beautiful art form um that I I [148:32] learned about when I was in Japan [148:34] recently and basically it's it's a [148:37] practice of repairing pottery and [148:39] ceramics that have [148:41] broken right and what happens is you [148:44] know you break a plate or you break a [148:47] like a vase or something and what they [148:50] do is they they put it back together [148:53] these Artisans who do it but they don't [148:56] just glue it back together they glue it [148:57] back together and they and they they [148:59] sort of Adorn it with like a golden [149:02] bondage and what what you get is an [149:05] object that is somehow more beautiful [149:08] than before it was [149:09] broken and it's this beautiful Japanese [149:12] tradition I'm sure you could find the [149:14] name and you know put it out there but [149:15] it's um if you could help me with it but [149:18] it's it's it's so [149:20] to me it was it was one of the the most [149:23] beautiful Concepts and a different way [149:25] to think about being quote unquote fixed [149:28] or overcoming or you know it is the uh [149:32] art of kin sui in [149:34] Japan and learning about this blew my [149:37] mind because it was such a it was a it [149:40] was a paradox shifting way for me to [149:42] think about [149:43] overcoming or being better and it it [149:47] wasn't the idea that we are perfect the [149:50] way we were before something happened to [149:51] us but rather it is that we get to wear [149:55] our cracks with a new type of Pride and [149:57] a new type of beauty you know and and [150:01] that's maybe how I think of overcoming [150:02] now is I think of myself like a ceramic [150:07] that has been cracked many times and [150:11] because of the love in my life and [150:12] because of you know great therapists and [150:15] because of good people and because I've [150:16] worked and I've managed to find ways to [150:19] put gold bondage in those cracks to [150:22] somehow find a little more Beauty in [150:24] myself than I had before the thing that [150:25] happened to me um and so yeah that's [150:29] that that like that Absol every time I [150:31] see those like it actually makes me [150:33] emotional when I look at each one and I [150:34] think about the story sort of of the [150:37] person that each vessel [150:39] contains my last question is a a very [150:43] complex question but it it was inspired [150:45] by what you just said about kugi the [150:46] Japanese tradition which is I spoke to a [150:48] guy called Mo G out my podcast who had [150:50] lost his son oh yeah I love Mo yeah I [150:52] love your conversation with him that [150:53] great it's one of my favorite of all [150:54] time because for many reasons but many [150:56] of them you you've touched on today and [150:58] he in that conversation he said [150:59] something to me about the loss of his [151:01] son he said there's this thing called [151:03] the Eraser test I don't know if you've [151:05] ever heard about it but they ask a group [151:06] of people who have been through a lot of [151:08] difficult experiences that if there was [151:10] a button yes um in front of them that [151:12] could would erase all of those [151:13] experiences really difficult experiences [151:15] at times would they press it now if I [151:17] put a button in front of you and it [151:19] would erase what had happened to your [151:20] mother being shot at that age um would [151:25] you press it yes I would you would yeah [151:28] I would and this is this is a [151:30] fundamental philosophical argument that [151:32] I have with people this is purely like [151:34] philosophy and it's the way I see the [151:36] world and I think the way some people [151:37] see the [151:39] world I [151:42] understand that many of the times or I [151:46] understand that like often times [151:50] people come out of a bad [151:53] experience with a new learning or [151:56] something that has improved them in many [151:58] ways but I think we should never take [152:00] for granted how many times that doesn't [152:02] happen you know I think we should never [152:05] take for granted how many people are [152:06] broken by a bad thing and I think we've [152:09] done something in society and maybe it's [152:11] because we want to valorize it or maybe [152:13] it's because we want to make people feel [152:14] like they're not victims or we want to [152:15] make it seem like there was some purpose [152:16] or meaning maybe it's tied to religion I [152:19] think think we at times have sort of [152:22] valorized this idea it happened to you [152:25] for a reason you know and so now you you [152:28] get this kid who was abused by their [152:30] parents or someone in their family and [152:32] you're like it happened to you for a [152:33] reason it made you the person you are [152:35] today you know or somebody who suffered [152:38] a horrible trauma or like a car accident [152:42] a terrorist attack a whatever it is hey [152:45] it happened to you for a reason you're [152:46] going to you know look at you you will [152:48] be stronger or look at you today [152:49] wouldn't be this person you know what [152:51] people forget to talk about is the fact [152:53] that yeah you could have been a [152:54] different version of you you could have [152:56] been happier you could have been less [152:58] wounded you could have carried less [153:00] burden you could have been less hurtful [153:03] because of that and I think we should [153:05] never take that for granted I think we [153:07] should encourage people to find the best [153:10] and we should we should always say to [153:11] ourselves hey what can I get from this [153:13] situation what can I learn from it how [153:15] can I grow from it but I am not a fan of [153:19] anybody saying [153:20] that they will keep it because it's made [153:22] them who they are just because you've [153:24] survived a storm doesn't mean that you [153:26] should want to keep that [153:28] storm you know and and so and that's why [153:32] I say it's a philosophical argument it [153:34] really is but I I don't like how we've [153:36] done that to people because in some way [153:39] I feel like it makes people think that [153:41] they now have to be grateful for a [153:43] terrible thing that has happened to them [153:45] or a terrible thing that they've [153:46] experienced or people around them have [153:48] experienced because because they've come [153:51] out more resilient on the other side of [153:52] it everything happens to you for a [153:54] reason yeah and so if I could replace it [153:56] I go no I forget that I don't go like [153:59] everything happens to you or doesn't I [154:00] go back to what I said my friend Phrase [154:02] My friend taught me who are who do you [154:03] choose to be I would say forget the [154:05] Eraser test I would say to you there can [154:09] never be an eraser test why don't we [154:10] replace it with a pencil test a pen test [154:13] a mark test whatever you know device you [154:15] want to use and you go if you could [154:17] press this button and decide what story [154:19] you write on the other side of the thing [154:21] that happened to you would you now write [154:23] that story and what story would you [154:25] write I think that's more important [154:28] because the Eraser thing makes people [154:29] now feel like they have to dis owner [154:32] part of themselves which most people [154:34] will not want to do but then it makes [154:36] you feel like you have to like claim [154:38] this thing as being part of yourself no [154:39] I would press that button I would erase [154:42] my mother being shot I would erase me uh [154:45] having ADHD I would erase uh the tough [154:48] times that my country went I erased a [154:50] partite I would I wouldn't be like I'll [154:52] would keep a partite Stephen because if [154:54] it wasn't for a partite I wouldn't be [154:56] here with you today no no no no no no I [154:58] would erase it and maybe we'd be dealing [154:59] with something else but if I could I I I [155:02] would press that button because I yeah I [155:05] I don't think we need to celebrate it I [155:07] think we need to work on it and you know [155:09] we need to strive to heal ourselves but [155:11] I don't think your tribulations are what [155:13] make you you survived and I'm proud of [155:16] you for surviving but that doesn't mean [155:18] that you needed to go through what you [155:19] had to go through so beautifully said [155:22] you have a wonderful podcast I could [155:24] talk to you all day but if people want [155:26] to hear more from you they have to go [155:27] and listen to your podcast um it's [155:28] called what now on Spotify um you speak [155:31] to a whole range of people like me but [155:33] you you do it in a very different way [155:35] but in the in the way and with the the [155:37] same set of components as to what's made [155:39] you such a hit with so many people I [155:41] can't tell you how much you know my team [155:43] than very you're very my my family my [155:45] sister my brothers they're such [155:47] tremendous fans of you because you have [155:48] this wonderful blend of WI I now know [155:50] where it all comes from humility [155:53] vulnerability and you [155:55] are authentic and authentic is a [155:58] complicated word but you are authentic [156:00] as anyone could hope to be um that's why [156:01] everyone has to go listen to your [156:02] podcast it's the third link that I'm [156:04] going to put down below it's called what [156:05] now um and it's one of my favorites [156:07] Trevor thank you so much from the guy [156:09] who made easily one of the best ever [156:11] thank you very much no no I mean this I [156:13] mean this for real you know I always say [156:15] like I go if you want to see a [156:16] professional podcast go go to Diary of a [156:18] CEO if want to come explore my mind come [156:21] listen to what now oh people want to [156:23] explore your mind fever and [156:25] it's no but for real I'm like [156:28] congratulations I appreciate you so much [156:30] and I can't tell you how much of an [156:31] honor this was sometimes I get quite [156:32] nervous to interview people and you're [156:33] one that I got nervous to because I [156:35] respect you so much so thank you so much [156:37] Trevor for the time I appreciate you [156:38] yeah man and don't don't spend as much [156:40] time alone you're not like you know I [156:42] know you've always been there and I know [156:44] it can feel in a weird way it can feel [156:46] like the comfortable place but like it [156:48] doesn't need to be [156:50] you'll be shocked at like how much lies [156:51] on the other side of it you know in a [156:54] weird way you you'll you'll be shocked [156:57] at what finding that belonging can do [157:00] for you you know it it comes with risk [157:03] the same way it does in a romantic [157:04] relationship but man it's it's it's [157:06] easily the most rewarding I if if [157:08] there's like a if I could evangelize one [157:11] thing to people out there it would be [157:13] find your people find your place and [157:14] unfortunately I think that's what's [157:15] happening these days people are finding [157:17] that place in negativity you know people [157:19] are finding community in negativity now [157:23] we all hate together we all we all you [157:26] know hate tweet together and we we're [157:27] all like angry at women together and we [157:29] all hate that music artist together and [157:31] we all yeah let's hate together but that [157:35] that's it's not sustainable because it [157:36] gobbles us up like it just like chews us [157:38] up and splits us out but if you can find [157:40] the things that you love doing for you [157:43] and then you find the people who love [157:44] doing it as well and it makes you feel [157:45] good the thing on the other side is It's [157:48] Magic in fact they shown studies I know [157:51] you love studies studies multiple [157:52] Studies have shown and I think a meta [157:54] analysis as well has shown that people [157:56] who have a strong group of friends [157:58] actually have better romantic [158:00] relationships because the burden of your [158:03] relationship is now lessened by having [158:06] this community as opposed to people who [158:08] merge with one person and then all their [158:10] hopes aspirations dreams fears [158:13] frustrations are just poured on them you [158:16] reach a breaking point but you can [158:17] actually have it's not replacing it by [158:19] the way you have a better romantic [158:21] relationship when you maintain and you [158:23] have a strong friendship so I I [158:25] encourage it do it I promise you I will [158:27] do it let you it's going to be great [158:29] thank you CH thank you man thank you so [158:30] much so much I really appreciate it [158:32] thank you [158:35] [Music] [158:49] a [158:52] [Music]

Trevor Noah Links Daily Show Exit to Untreated ADHD and Isolation

Detailed notes

[02:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=135s) The Ingredients That Make a Person

[05:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=319s) Apartheid and the "Lucky Breaks"

[07:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=456s) Growing Up as a "Crime" Under Apartheid

[11:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=689s) Hiding in Plain Sight with His Parents

[12:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=739s) Childhood Perception, Trauma, and Gabor Maté

[16:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=970s) Domestic Violence and the Fragility of Safety

[23:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1430s) The Phone Call and the "Spidey Sense" of Trauma

[26:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1593s) Hyper-Empathy as a Gift and a Curse

[31:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=1882s) Anticipating Grief and the Reality of Loss

[33:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2020s) "One of My Greatest Gifts": Reframing Loss and the Miracle in the ER

[36:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2200s) A Systemic Failing: Why the Stepdad Avoided Prison

[38:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2337s) Navigating the Spectrum of Rage and the Paradox of Abusers

[41:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2505s) The Nature of Forgiveness and Escaping the Vicious Cycle

[43:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2625s) How Unseen Trauma Leaves Fingerprints

[45:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=2741s) The Modern Crisis of Young Men: Purposelessness, War, and Isolation

[51:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3060s) Economic Shifts and the "Provider" Dilemma for Men

[52:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3150s) The Fall of the Middle Class and "The Domino Effect"

[05:04:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=18240s) Purpose, Community, and "The Third Thing"

[57:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3425s) The Erasure of Third Places and Male Isolation

[58:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3489s) Emotional Vulnerability and Finding Community Online

[01:03:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3810s) Belonging, Isolation, and Growing Up Different

[01:05:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3927s) The Practical Path to Connection and Belonging

[01:06:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=3990s) How Relationships and Friendships Evolve Over Time

[01:09:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4192s) The Influence of Environment and Core Friendships

[01:12:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4339s) Redefining Success and Driven by Puzzles, Not "Toxic Fuel"

[01:16:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4560s) The Heavy Price of Fame and the Loss of Anonymity

[01:20:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=4826s) The Theme Park Epiphany: Why Friction Adds Value to Life

[01:25:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5107s) Taking Over *The Daily Show* and Facing Backlash

[01:29:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5379s) The Worst Day in the Trenches and Jon Stewart's Advice

[01:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5700s) Understanding ADHD Depression and the Myth of the "Self-Made" Individual

[01:41:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6074s) Why Trevor Walked Away from *The Daily Show*

[01:49:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6587s) Escaping the News Cycle and Taking a Mental Break

[01:51:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6677s) Trevor's Therapy Journey and Physical Metaphors

[01:55:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6903s) Reframing Therapy Across Cultures

[01:57:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7041s) Learning to Feel vs. Learning to Think

[01:59:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7196s) Adult ADHD Diagnosis and Misconceptions

[02:02:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7379s) The Link Between ADHD and Depression

[02:05:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7512s) The Mechanics of ADHD Rumination and Cognitive Loops

[02:08:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7703s) Zooming In and Grounding Techniques for Existential Dread

[02:09:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=7783s) The Physical Check-In and the "Last Day" Paradigm

[02:14:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8047s) Reuniting with His Biological Father and Lessons on Friendship

[02:18:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8307s) Last Words to Patricia Noah and Simple Moments

[02:20:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8426s) Honoring His Mother's Legacy and Dealing with Flawed Parents

[02:22:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8538s) Thoughts on Fatherhood and Raising Children

[02:23:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8639s) Relationships, Romance, and His New Book

[02:26:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=8802s) Overcoming Life's Lowest Point and the Japanese Art of Kintsugi

[02:30:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9040s) The Eraser Test vs. The Pencil Test

[02:35:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9333s) Mutual Respect and Podcasting Philosophies

[02:36:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9398s) The Importance of Belonging and Avoiding Negative Communities

[02:37:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=9468s) The Meta-Analysis: How Friendships Strengthen Romance

中文简报

Reading summary

精炼阅读摘要

Detailed notes — zh

Source quotes

Source quotes

Original transcript

[01:25:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=5107s) Taking Over The Daily Show and Facing Backlash

[01:41:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=FsztuzyXdhY&t=6074s) Why Trevor Walked Away from The Daily Show