Martha Beck Leverages Neurobiology to Neutralize Chronic Anxiety

Martha Beck利用神经生物学化解慢性焦虑 通过感官想象与创造性输出激活右脑半球，关闭左脑威胁回路以缓解心理痛苦。 Martha Beck博士探讨了焦虑背后的神经机制，解释了从左脑的威胁控制转向右脑的感官好奇与创造力，何以能够缓解慢性恐惧。她分享了个人历程，包括在严格的摩门教社群中遭受童年性侵、罹患严重的自身免疫性疾病，以及手术期间促使她立誓终生践行绝对真实的濒死体验。通过应用运动机能学演示和“想象中的橙子”（Imaginary Orange）可视化等实用练习，她展示了个体如何瓦解内心的焦虑螺旋并进入心流状态。最终，她提供了切实可行的行动框架——例如CAT模型（Calm、Art、Transcendence，即平静、艺术、超越）和KISST（Kind Internal Self-Talk，即友善的内在自我对话），以引导受众走向自我关怀、真实生活并实现充实的人生意义。 Martha Beck博士利用应用运动机能学演示证明，说谎会导致身体力量出现即时、可测量的减弱，反映出人类大脑在预设机制上偏向真实而非虚假。 (0:00) 焦虑是一种由左脑驱动的进化威胁应对机制，左脑利用语言构建关于未来的抽象且可怕的叙事，试图以此维持全面掌控。 (19:51) 创造力与感官意识主要存在于右脑；参与右脑活动会直接触发神经开关，从而关闭焦虑并释放多巴胺和血清素等神经化学物质。 (21:09) 调动全部五种感官生动想象一个橙子等简单的感官练习，能够瞬间让大脑脱离左脑焦虑状态并恢复平静。 (26:47) 传统学校教育使儿童习惯于通过恐惧、羞耻感和僵化的是非评判来学习，从而将人类在幼儿期高达98%的天生创造力压制到了成年期的2%。 (34:09)

Sociologist and life coach Dr. Martha Beck argues that chronic anxiety stems from an overactive left-hemisphere threat loop, and that lasting relief requires shifting into right-brain sensory presence, creative expression, and radical personal honesty. The Evolutionary Left-Brain Anxiety Spiral (19:51) Beck describes anxiety as a runaway feedback loop initiated by the brain's left-leaning threat detection system. A spike of fear prompts verbal narratives that insist on total control over external circumstances. Because life cannot be entirely controlled, the resulting helplessness triggers heightened alarm and larger fearful stories, creating an escalating spiral that the left hemisphere struggles to interrupt on its own. Modern cultural conditions compound this biological bias. Beck cites estimates that 284 million people worldwide lived with anxiety disorders prior to 2020, with global rates jumping 25% during the pandemic. Systemic workplace mindsets, such as Jeff Bezos publicly expecting Amazon employees to wake up terrified every day to drive productivity, trap individuals in chronic fear. Beck notes that algorithms also monetize outrage and fear by exploiting the brain's natural negativity bias. Engaging the Right Brain Through Calm and Art (40:00) To interrupt the anxiety cycle, Beck introduces the 'CAT' model: Calm, Art, and Transcendence. Rather than fighting fear—which she likens to attacking a frightened animal—individuals must first settle the nervous system. Simple practices, such as vividly imagining the sensory details of peeling and tasting an orange, non-verbal group tasks in nature, or mirror-writing to trigger new neural synapses, disengage the left brain's language center and recruit the right hemisphere's exploratory curiosity. Once calm is established, creative engagement acts as a functional toggle switch against distress. Citing research showing that trauma survivors engaging in art have an 80% lower chance of developing PTSD, and Pennebaker's expressive writing protocols, Beck explains that moving from reactive problem-solving to creative production ('What can I make from this?') releases serotonin, dopamine, and social-bonding hormones while shutting down glucocorticoids. Radical Integrity, Applied Kinesiology, and Health Beck links psychological suffering directly to self-deception and cultural indoctrination. Following a transformative near-death experience during surgery at age 30, she committed to total honesty, walking away from her marriage, academia, and the Mormon church, despite community ostracization and the excavation of repressed childhood abuse. She credits this alignment with resolving decades of severe psychogenic pain and daily suicidal ideation by age 32. She illustrates the physical impact of deception through applied kinesiology demonstrations. When a subject speaks a truthful sentence, their arm resists pressure firmly, whereas speaking an intentional falsehood causes an immediate loss of muscle resistance. Beck argues that the body registers reality without deceit, while verbal minds rationalize discomfort; true alignment with freedom can be achieved through gentle, incremental 'one-degree turns' rather than abrupt, destructive leaps. Reframing Purpose Beyond Achievement Drawing on the African concept of Ubuntu ('I am because we are'), Beck asserts that life purpose is not defined by individual accomplishments, but by relational connection. For young people paralyzed by existential anxiety, she points to theologian Frederick Buechner's framing that purpose exists where an individual's 'deep gladness' intersects with the world's deep hunger. Beck emphasizes distinguishing between clean emotional grief and psychological suffering. While grief is a necessary, compassionate response to loss that evolves consciousness, psychological suffering arises from the anxious refusal of reality. Reframing adversity into an active, creative quest transforms victims into creators, allowing people to extract meaning from hardship. Beck's model frames anxiety not as a mechanical defect requiring suppression, but as an evolutionary alarm that can be redirected into creative flow and relational meaning. However, her framework relies heavily on personal subjective experiences and alternative demonstrations such as applied kinesiology, leaving the line between empirical neurological mechanisms and metaphysical metaphor open to critical scrutiny.

哈佛大学社会学博士兼知名人生导师 Martha Beck 认为，现代人的焦虑并非需要强行消灭的心理缺陷，而是大脑左半球在负面偏见与失控恐惧下制造的叙事螺旋；通过感官想象、艺术创造与践行身体诚实，个体能够激活右半球并逐步摆脱长期的心理痛苦。 左右脑机制与焦虑叙事螺旋 (19:51) Beck 强调，尽管左右脑在生理上协同运作，但在威胁应对机制上存在显著功能差异。左半球依赖语言与线性时间，在觉察到未知或威胁后，其杏仁核会激发强烈的控制欲，并用语言虚构出恐怖的未来故事；一旦发现外部现实无法完全掌控，左半球就会产生更大的恐慌并加剧控制，形成持续升级的焦虑螺旋。现代社会更加剧了这种机制，例如部分企业文化公开宣扬让员工处于恐惧中以换取生产力，使得焦虑成为系统性现象。 相对而言，右半球的杏仁核在遇到未知事物时激发的则是好奇心而非厌恶。Beck 指出，演化上的“消极偏见”让人类天然聚焦于危险，但可以通过调动右半球的感知功能阻断焦虑。例如通过具象化想象一颗多汁橙子的气味、触感与酸甜滋味，或者进行镜像反向书写等需要深层学习与专注的感官活动，能够迅速打断左脑的语言叙事，抑制皮质醇等压力激素释放，并促使多巴胺与五羟色胺的分泌，让身心恢复平静。 CAT模型与摆脱恐惧的创造力路径 (40:00) 针对焦虑的系统性化解，Beck 提出了简称为“CAT”的三步框架：平静（Calm）、艺术（Art）与超越（Transcendence）。她主张不应将焦虑视作失灵的机器来暴力压制，而应将其当作受惊吓的动物予以温和照料与倾听。心理学家 James Pennebaker 的研究也证实，通过持续进行创伤表达性书写，虽然短期内可能引发情绪波动，但长期来看能显著降低焦虑水平并改善健康。 在恢复平静之后，个体需要借助“艺术”介入右半球的创造进程。Beck 指出，创造与焦虑在大脑中无法同时运行，创造行为本身就是阻断恐惧的生理开关。研究表明，参与绘画或艺术创作的创伤幸存者，其罹患创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的概率降低了80%。当人们沉浸于创造并进入心流状态时，心态会从被动的应对问题彻底转变为创造性表达，进而体会到超越小我执念的内在自由。 身体诚实与童年创伤的根本疗愈 (76:09) Beck 结合自身在摩门教家庭中遭受长期虐待及患病濒死的经历指出，言不由衷与强迫顺从会直接削弱人体的神经生理功能。通过应用运动机能学的肌肉测试可以观察到，当受试者陈述真实意愿时肌肉能够保持坚强抗阻，而被迫陈述虚假谎言时肌肉抗阻力则会瞬间瓦解。由于语言意识极易为了讨好文化规范而自我欺骗，身体所感受到的痛苦和不适实际上是反映神经系统失调的真实信号。 她认为，长期的心理痛苦主要源于未消化的创伤和压抑自我的社会化规范，而真正的疗愈始于立足个人真实的“彻底诚实”。在面对人生困境与毒性环境时，与其采取剧烈且具有毁灭性的断裂，不如在日常生活中持续进行微小的“一度转向”，戒绝不必要且违背本心的社交逢迎，通过对自我的慈悲对话逐步恢复内在身心的一致性。 关系意义与基于共情的意识觉醒 在探讨人生使命时，Beck 反对将个人成就作为核心指标，主张将意义建立在人与人之间的深度连结上。她引用非洲传统的“Ubuntu”（因我们而在，故我存在）哲学，说明人类的本质是关系性的。现代社会的数字化隔绝削弱了传统社群与代际指引，容易让年轻人陷入防御性孤独与价值虚无，而通过在大自然中的协作与真实联结，能够有效重塑心理韧性。 Beck 还强调了悲伤与心理痛苦的区别：纯粹的悲伤是创伤治愈的自然过程，最终会演化为深沉的同理心与觉醒意识，而拒绝接纳现实的抗拒才是痛苦的根源。生命的真正召唤在于自身深沉的喜悦与世间深层需求的交汇点，个体只要将受害者的悲剧叙事转化为英雄的主动创造，就能在社群连结中找到安顿身心的归宿。 Beck 的论述融合了脑神经功能假说、东亚哲学与个人创伤经验，强调以创造力和身体诚实取代对焦虑的对抗；但其依托的应用运动机能学演示、灵性顿悟叙事以及部分演化假说，在严谨科学界仍具有相当争议，对于重度器质性精神病患而言，替代传统医疗干预的可行性亦缺乏确切临床定论。

## Background 该视频由 YouTube 频道 The Diary Of A CEO（主持人为 Steven Bartlett）于 2024 年 12 月 19 日发布。节目邀请了哈佛大学毕业的社会学家、知名畅销书作家及奥普拉的长期人生教练玛莎·贝克博士（Dr. Martha Beck），围绕如何化解童年创伤、摆脱病理性焦虑、唤醒右脑创造力以及找寻真实人生使命等核心议题展开深入对话。 ## TL;DR 节目中，玛莎·贝克深入剖析了现代人焦虑大流行的神经机制，指出左脑主导的语言叙事与控制欲将人类困在恶性焦虑螺旋中，而身体对谎言的生理抗拒证明了躯体的绝对诚实。她结合自身历经重度童年性侵创伤、长期卧病与濒死体验后重构人生的血泪经历，提出了打破焦虑的“CAT”（安抚 Calm、艺术 Artistry、超越 Transcendence）三步法。玛莎强调，焦虑不应被暴力压制，而应像对待受惊小动物般报以温柔与自我慈悲；通过感官锚定、一度转向微调以及动手创造，人们能够切断左脑恐惧开关并激活右脑好奇心。最终，她借由非洲 Ubuntu 哲学与对真实的绝对臣服，揭示出人生的真正使命不在于孤立的个人成就，而在于人与人之间深层喜悦与世间饥渴交汇处的慈悲连接。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在极具冲击力的现场“肌肉抗阻测试”中开场，迅速从生理神经学探讨切入充满血泪与震撼的深层创伤叙事，兼具学术的严谨理智与近乎裸露的生命坦诚。史蒂芬专注、敏锐且充满共情的提问，与玛莎历经浩劫后淬炼出的通透、从容与幽默形成迷人的张力。现场冥想与画图演练带来了强烈的沉浸感与躯体觉察，整期节目的情感弧线从童年暴力的冰冷窒息与自杀阴霾，一路升华为如暖阳般包裹身心的慈悲与狂喜，给听众带来如同灵魂受洗般的深层释怀与平静力量。 ## Bulletin - [23:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1423s) 人类焦虑并非不可逆的生理缺陷，大脑在左右半球存在“双向切换开关”：左脑通过语言中枢不断编织虚构的灾难故事锁死焦虑螺旋，而右脑的感官具象与好奇心可在生理上反向抑制皮质醇分泌，阻断应激警报。 - [40:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=2430s) 玛莎·贝克博士提出缓解焦虑的 CAT 三步模型（安抚 Calm、艺术 Artistry、超越 Transcendence），强调焦虑本质是一只“受惊的动物”而非需要暴力修理的机械故障，自我慈悲是开启疗愈的前提。 - [01:15:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=4552s) 即身肌肉抗阻测试证实说谎会直接削弱人体力量：当口头陈述违背内在事实时，神经系统会瞬间瓦解肌肉支撑；而通过倾听身体信号进行细微的“一度转向”，是身心系统重获力量的科学法则。 - [01:53:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6836s) 人生的终极使命并非孤立个体的世俗成就，而是建立在非西方个人主义的“乌班图”（Ubuntu）联结之上——生命的真正目的产生于人与人之间的空间，即个人深层喜悦与世界深层饥渴相遇的交汇点。 ## Key takeaways - [18:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1120s) 语言是引发病理性焦虑与自杀念头的神经生物学根源：与动物面临物理危险后的自然平复不同，人类语言中枢构建的未来灾难叙事制造了永恒的恐惧与失控感。 - [21:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1269s) 杏仁核在左右脑的神经传导机制截然不同：左脑杏仁核被激活后触发控制欲与灾难化语言辩护，右脑杏仁核则奇迹般地将惊恐警觉转化为探索未知的好奇心（Curiosity）。 - [29:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1761s) 右脑感官想象（Sensory Imagination）能瞬间逆转身体的应激状态：在脑海中精细具象化剥开甜橙的味觉与触感，可迅速停止皮质醇和肾上腺素的飙升，释放多巴胺与催产素。 - [37:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=2266s) 现代流水线教育系统性扼杀了人类的天然创造力：NASA 测试表明 98% 的四至五岁幼童属于创造力天才，但成人群体中仅剩 2%，原因在于后天充斥着羞耻、评判与对错标签的教化模式。 - [51:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=3082s) 焦虑与创造力在脑神经层面具备互斥的“开关效应”：只要个体投入沉浸式的三维空间动手创造或表达性书写，左脑的焦虑反应便会被强制切断，推动意识迈向心流与精神超越。 - [53:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=3216s) 现代社会颠倒了男女心理成长的自然秩序：男性天生倾向于分化，成熟需要通过荒野试炼与长者引领学会融入社群（整合）；女性天生高联结，成熟需要学会独处（个体化），现代文明的错位导致了青年男性触目惊心的自残与自杀危机。 - [01:15:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=4552s) 身体是绝对诚实的情报系统：测谎仪与肌肉抗阻测试均表明身体永远扎根于现实，长期顺从外部规训、在不舒适的环境中自我欺骗，会直接导致神经系统衰竭与器质性疾病。 - [01:21:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=4899s) 以“一度转向”（One-Degree Turns）替代断崖式的生活剧变：改变命运无需毁灭一切，只需在觉察到身心不适时，在日常选择中做出微小的正向偏转，坚决停止做既非心甘情愿、也非真正非做不可之事。 - [01:25:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5140s) 内在真理具有辨识度极高的“自由的味道”：正如佛陀所言尝遍诸水咸味即知是大海，无论是道家的顺应自然还是摆脱虚伪关系，凡是带来内在解脱与忘我心流的指引才是真正的道路。 - [01:29:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5389s) 善意内部自我对话（KIST）是止息心理痛苦的内在解药：心理痛苦源于将社会化谎言与创伤记忆内化，通过每天向正处于痛苦中的内在自我给予无条件的慈悲与陪伴，能重构安全感。 - [01:49:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6558s) 追随真实本性必然会遭遇与传统文化的博弈冲突：玛莎坦诚面对性取向并走出传统婚姻，最终实践了建立在完全透明与频繁沟通之上的三人亲密关系，打破了二元关系的对抗僵局。 - [01:55:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6920s) 以“柔和的眼神”（Soft Eyes）打破疏离：实践非洲“乌班图”（我是因为我们而在）哲学，将注意力投向彼此之间的空间，能瞬间降低心率，唤醒深层的同理心与万物一体感。 - [02:10:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7835s) 平庸故事与伟大故事的分野在于英雄的“炼金术”：平庸叙事哀叹坏事降临在好人身上，而伟大叙事中受创者拒绝做受害者，在自我慈悲中将苦难的铅块炼化为黄金，成为拯救自我与世界的创作者。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=0s) 谎言削弱身体：通过神经反射窥见大脑与焦虑的本质 节目在一场极具震撼力的即身体验中拉开序幕。玛莎·贝克（Dr. Martha Beck）让主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）伸出一条手臂，先坚定地说出一句真话：“我爱新鲜空气（I love fresh air）”，并保持手臂用力上抬；紧接着，她要求史蒂芬在保持手臂用力的同时说出一句明显的谎言：“我喜欢呕吐（I love to vomit）”。结果令人匪夷所思——当说出违心之言的那一刻，原本坚挺的手臂瞬间失去力量、应声下垂。在反复对比这两句话后，史蒂芬惊叹这种生理反应实在不可思议。玛莎解释道，这完全源于人类大脑的神经构造机制，当言语与潜意识真实相悖时，神经系统会直接瓦解身体的肌力支持。 玛莎·贝克是哈佛大学培养的社会学家，同时也是备受全球推崇的顶尖人生教练，其著名的长期客户包括奥普拉·温弗瑞（Oprah Winfrey）。玛莎指出，人类大脑在生物学进化上天然就带有易焦虑的预设程序，而这种倾向又被后天的两股巨大力量不断加剧：一是社会的“教化规范（socialization）”，它无休止地灌输“你不够好、你必须加倍努力、你的选择全错了”；二是“创伤（trauma）”，它时刻在大脑中拉响警报，渲染“一切都危险至极”，进而编造无数尚未发生的恐怖剧本试图进行自保。 焦虑最可怕的特性在于它会形成恶性循环的漩涡。玛莎毫无保留地剖析了自己早年的惨痛遭遇：她从 5 岁起就遭受残酷的性虐待，身心留下了永久的物理创伤与痛苦记忆；到了 30 岁前后，她饱受重度抑郁症、焦虑症以及导致其卧床长达十年的自身免疫性疾病折磨，数度挣扎在自杀念头的边缘。然而，她带着百分之百的笃定强调，人类完全有能力“欺骗”大脑并彻底阻断焦虑的神经回路。随后，史蒂芬插播了一条数据：收听节目的常客中仍有高达 53% 的观众尚未点击订阅，他恳请大家点击关注，以支持团队继续倾听反馈、邀请重磅嘉宾。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 焦虑与身体反应的神经诱因 accDescr: 展示社会化教化和创伤如何导致身体变弱与陷入焦虑螺旋 subgraph External["外部压力源"] A["社会化教化<br/>'你不够好 / 必须更拼'"] B["未愈合的创伤<br/>'万物皆危险 / 预演恐惧'"] end subgraph Internal["神经与生理反应"] C["违背身心真实 / 说谎言"] --> D["肌力瞬间减弱<br/>身体失去支撑能量"] A --> E["大脑生物学生存警报激活"] B --> E E --> F["恶性焦虑螺旋<br/>身心症状加剧与疾病"] end subgraph Shift["破局点"] F -.-> G["通过脑神经技巧欺骗大脑<br/>重获自主与内在宁静"] end ``` --- ### [02:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=121s) 幼年的使命感与 T.S. 艾略特的等待之诗 当史蒂芬询问玛莎毕生工作的终极目标究竟是什么、又是为了谁而做时，玛莎微笑着给出了一个反常的选择：“我可以给你一个大多数人都能轻松接受的常规回答，或者，我可以告诉你听起来非常诡异的真相。”在得到史蒂芬“我选择真相”的回答后，玛莎袒露了一个藏在心底数十年的深层秘密。 从极为年幼的时候起，玛莎就对一种奇异的责任感怀有近乎窒息的焦虑。她清楚地记得，在某一年生日前夜，她躺在床上辗转反侧、焦躁万分，心想：“我来到地球上是背负着协助某种使命的，但我到现在还没做出足够的贡献，我必须抓紧时间行动了！”——而第二天，她刚刚年满 4 岁。自那以后，她的整个人生方向都被一种强烈的预感所支配：她命中注定要在有生之年协助人类世界完成一场深刻的转变。 年轻时的她完全不明白这究竟意味着什么，曾花费数不清的时间冥思苦想“这到底是什么”。在迷茫中，唯一浮现在她心头并给予她指引的，是诗人 T.S. 艾略特（T.S. Eliot）在《四个四重奏》中的诗句： > “我对我的灵魂说，静止吧，在没有爱中等待，因为那爱会是对错误之物的爱；在没有希望中等待，因为那希望会是对错误之物的希望。然而信念犹存，但爱、希望与信念全都在等待之中。在没有思想中等待，因为你尚未准备好去思想；如此，黑暗将化为光明，静止将化为起舞。” --- ### [04:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=297s) 人类意识的范式转移：“觉醒”与纯然存在的喜悦 随着年岁渐长、学术训练不断深入，玛莎终于领悟：自己要协助推动的，是“人类感知与思维方式的根本转变”。过去她之所以无法向任何人言说，是因为向某人解释思维方式的根本跃迁，必然要经过对方现有的思维框架进行转译，其结果必然是彻底的误解。如今步入晚年，玛莎坦言自己早已不再在意外界的眼光与评判：“我过去几十年来把它当成心底最深处的秘密，现在我可以大声直说——我认为人类意识即将迎来一场范式转移，它将彻底重塑人与地球、人与人、以及人与自我的关系。即便我猜错了我也毫不在乎，在离开人世之前，我会为此奋斗不息。” 谈及这场预测中的意识转变，玛莎结合自己的学术背景展开了阐释。她的本科专业是东亚研究（East Asian Studies），曾旅居亚洲，精研中文与日文。在亚洲传统哲学以及印度、西藏等东方文化中，存在一个西方现代文明极其生疏的概念——“觉醒（Awakening）”，即从思想编织的梦境中彻底醒来。面对听众可能将她视为疯子的疑虑，玛莎幽默地安抚道，只要跟上这个逻辑，就会发现这极其酷炫： - **痛苦的终结**：觉醒是一种认知机制的跃迁。一旦醒来，个体就会脱离大脑中那些制造内在痛苦的思维分支；觉醒之后，内心的主观受苦便复不复存在。 - **表观遗传学层面的潜能**：玛莎认为这种觉醒是大脑内在固有的表观遗传转变，贯穿整个人类历史。无论在何种文化或时代，从古代觉者到罗本岛服刑期间的纳尔逊·曼德拉（Nelson Mandela），经历过这一过程的人都使用了高度一致的术语来描述它。 - **梦境与终极真实的对比**：在觉醒状态下，人们会意识到过往的生活固然真实，但那种真实仅如同梦境一般虚幻；觉醒后的现实才是终极的实相。 - **万物一体的慈悲与平静**：这种状态中没有恐惧与受苦，只有无限的慈悲、奉献的渴望、对众生的深沉之爱，以及在梵文中被称为 *Sat-Chit-Ananda*（纯然存在的至福，The Bliss of Being）的宁静。玛莎深信，只要有足够关键数量的人同时达到这种感知状态，人类数千年来制造的沉疴顽疾便能迎刃而解。 --- ### [07:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=463s) 资格建立在苦难之上：手术濒死、不再撒谎与旧生活的焚毁 当史蒂芬追问玛莎凭借何种资格与资历来谈论这种境界时，玛莎的回答充满了血泪交织的生命厚度：“我的资格在于，我是一个在身心两方面经历了几十年极端折磨的人，我曾是一个彻底支离破碎的生命残骸。” 早在 30 岁时，严重的自身免疫系统疾病已让她卧病在床整整十年，重度抑郁与焦虑自幼如影随形。转折发生在她经历的一场外科手术中——那是一次深刻的濒死体验。在麻醉昏迷的状态下，她目睹并融入了一团纯净的光芒之中，感受到一种不可思议的连接与根本性的身心转变。 从手术室苏醒后，玛莎作出了一个彻底颠覆人生的决绝誓言：**在今后的言论、行为以及任何微小的生活细节中，绝不再说一句谎话。** 坚守绝对真实的代价是一场暴风骤雨般的剧变。在随后短短一年内，玛莎的生活犹如被扔进了一场焚毁一切的篝火： - **脱离原生信仰与社群**：她退出了在故乡社区具有绝对主导地位的摩门教家庭信仰，这导致她一夜之间失去了原生家庭、成长社群以及 17 岁上大学前结识的所有朋友。 - **直面性取向与婚姻解体**：她诚实面对了自己是同性恋者的真实自我，终结了异性婚姻。 - **放弃学术体制与安身之所**：她被迫离开了家园，并彻底放弃了在哈佛等顶尖高校的学术教职。 玛莎笑着告诫听众：“我绝不建议收听节目的任何人效仿我的做法！我之所以把旧生活烧成灰烬，就是为了让你们不必重蹈覆辙，我向你们保证，通往觉醒有容易得多的途径。”通过思想的严谨求索与肉体创伤的千锤百炼，她自认虽未敢自诩为彻底的觉者，但她清晰地知晓觉醒的坐标。这种认知让她在世界中感受到了前所未有的安全感与喜悦。她强调，这种神圣的平静原本就潜藏在每个人体内，她的角色只是帮人拨开迷雾，而无需凭空创造。 --- ### [10:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=609s) 跨越阶层的普世之痛：从吸毒者到亿万富翁的终极追寻 在谈及一对一深度个案咨询的经历时，玛莎表示她的来访者跨越了极其悬殊的社会阶层光谱。她曾在菲尼克斯（Phoenix）的街头为无家可归的海洛因成瘾者提供心理辅导。虽然她一生从未沾染过毒品，但她深刻理解成瘾者的心理逻辑： > “当海洛因成瘾者说，他们无法离开第一次注射毒品时的那种快感而活时，我完全感同身受——因为从那次手术的光芒中苏醒后，我也觉得没有那份极致的回归与平静，我根本无法生存下去。我对街头的吸毒者说，我坚信你们理应获得你们如此渴望的极致感受，但不同的是，通过另一种方式，你们还可以保住自己的牙齿和生命。” 作为一名社会学家，玛莎设立了严格的检验标准：任何一种声称对人类有效的心理或意识转化法则，必须在贫穷与巨富、囚禁与自由、不同文化的极端环境下普遍成立，她才会认可其价值。她辅导过监狱中的囚徒，也担任过顶级亿万富翁的导师。 当史蒂芬好奇那些拥有无尽财富的亿万富翁究竟向她寻求什么、会表达怎样的痛苦症状时，玛莎揭示了一个出人意料的普遍真相：几乎所有人——无论身无分文还是富可敌国——核心的核心困扰全都是同一个问题，那就是：“**他们迫切地想知道自己的人生意义与真正使命（their purpose），想知道自己究竟为何而生。**” ### [11:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=703s) 现代文明的异化与被左脑劫持的社会 人类是目前已知唯一每天都清醒意识到自身终将走向死亡的生物。面对不可避免的死亡，无论是露宿街头的流浪汉，还是坐拥亿万身家的富豪，内心深处都充斥着一种极其强烈的存在性绝望：“我到底为什么在这里？我活着的意义究竟是什么？”马莎·贝克（Martha Beck）指出，这种绝望并非源于天性，而是因为现代文化彻底将我们与内在真正的本质割裂开来。我们身处一个对生产力、消费主义和物质财富积累病态痴迷的体系中，这种生活方式生硬地切断了人类感知生命意义的通道。 在神经机制层面，这种状态对应着大脑左半球的过度激活与困顿。左脑极其执着于抓取、占有与控制，它永远处于恐惧与匮乏之中，甚至狂妄地拒绝相信在自身逻辑之外还存在其他现实。相反，能够感知意义、目的、深层人际联结与存在感的大脑结构，在现代社会被严重边缘化。 在短短几百年前，人类的日常生活完全依托于大自然：清晨在清风、鸟鸣和同伴的话语声中醒来，日出而作、日落而息，与飞禽走兽、植被大地保持着亲密的生理与心理联结。我们的生理构造就是为了适应那种环境而进化的。然而，人类如今生活在人类学家所说的“WEIRD社会”（西方、受过良好教育、工业化、富裕、民主，Western, Educated, Industrialized, Rich, Democratic）中：每天在刺眼的日光灯下醒来，整日埋头于几百年前根本不存在的电子表格中，被工厂流水线式的管理制度分配给身旁素不相识的同事。在学校和职场里，人们不再解决与内心真正相关的现实问题，而是揣摩上级或权威早已预设的标准答案，并根据答案的对错遭受羞辱或奖励。正如哲学家兼精神病学家伊恩·麦吉尔克里斯特（Iain McGilchrist）所言，我们当下的整个文化形态，运作起来就像一个“遭受了严重右脑中风的病人”，陷入了荒谬而疯狂的左脑霸权之中。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代文化对人类大脑与认知模式的异化 accDescr: 对比传统自然生活方式与现代WEIRD社会的左脑主导模式 subgraph Evolution ["进化适应：自然状态"] A["依托自然节律与社群关系"] --> B["右脑功能整合：感知联结、意义与存在"] end subgraph ModernCulture ["异化现实：WEIRD社会"] C["流水线劳动、人工环境与指标追逐"] --> D["左脑过度主导：控制、抓取与恐惧驱动"] D --> E["文化犹如严重右脑中风：丧失意义感"] end ``` ### [14:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=888s) 焦虑大流行：为何恐惧成了商业社会的“燃料” 马莎·贝克谈及自己撰写《超越焦虑》（*Beyond Anxiety*）一书的初衷。在此之前，她出版了《完整性的道路》（*The Way of Integrity*）。在她看来，“Integrity”（完整性/正直）并非单纯的道德说教，而是指生命结构的完整无缺（intact）——当一个人的身体、心灵、精神与思想达成一致、讲述同一个故事时，生命就会稳稳扎根于现实之中，自然而然地体验到东方智者所描述的受苦止息的觉醒状态。马莎原本以为那是自己人生中写的最后一本自助书籍，然而新书出版后，大量读者反馈道：“我已经按照书里说的，将生活的方方面面都调整到了‘完整性’状态，但我每天依然吓得要命，内心时刻充满恐惧。” 这促使马莎深入调研全球心理健康现状，结果触目惊心：焦虑症已成为当今世界上波及面最广的心理健康挑战，全球有近2.84亿人被临床确诊患有焦虑障碍；尤其是在2020年新冠疫情期间，全球焦虑发生率直接暴增了整整25%。焦虑如同停车场出口处的单向破胎器（Tire ripper），车轮一旦轧上去就再也无法倒退回原点，因为大脑的特定神经回路会让焦虑自我强化、一路螺旋上升。当全社会大量人群深陷于这种无法自拔的极度焦虑中时，整个文明便在无意识间构建出了一套不断滋生并赞美焦虑的文化。 在现代商业逻辑中，焦虑甚至被公开奉为神圣的效率引擎。例如，亚马逊创始人杰夫·贝佐斯（Jeff Bezos）在股东季度报告和公开演讲中，曾反复明确表示，他希望手下成千上万的亚马逊员工“每天清晨都在极度恐惧（terrified）中醒来，并且整天保持这种恐惧状态”，因为在他看来，唯有恐惧才能驱动极致的生产力。然而，那些基层员工不过是为了微薄的薪水勉强维持生计，这种严苛的企业文化本质上是在利用底层的不安全感，为顶层资本聚敛堆积如山的财富。当前全球前1%的极少数富豪掌握着全世界约50%的财富，但在这种畸形的社会价值体系下，即便一个人通过拼命工作获得了海量财富，只要其生活方式依然被抓取与占有主导，他依然会在每个早晨从惶恐不安中惊醒，终日惶惶不可终日。 - 全球已有约2.84亿人达到临床焦虑障碍的确诊标准。 - 2020年全球疫情爆发当年，焦虑情绪与相关病症的发生率飙升了25%。 - 现代精英文化崇尚将“极度恐惧（terrified）”作为驱动生产力和商业产出的必要手段。 - 全球最富有的1%人口攫取并占据了世界上约50%的总财富。 ### [18:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1120s) 恐惧与焦虑的渊源：语言如何编织致命的精神囚笼 马莎厘清了生物学意义上的“恐惧”（Fear）与病理性“焦虑”（Anxiety）之间的核心区别。纯粹的生理恐惧犹如“被大炮轰出一瞬间的本能冲击”：如果此时演播室突然闯进一只大灰熊，在场的每个人都会瞬间接收到古老神经系统下达的明确指令——战斗、逃跑或原地冻结（fight, flee, freeze）。现场两人开玩笑打趣道：马莎调侃自己会把体重是自己两倍的史蒂文推出去喂熊，而史蒂文则笑着回应自己绝不冒险、拔腿就跑。在动物界中，危险一旦解除，生物体内的警报便会迅速解除并回归平静，这就是正常的生理恐惧反应。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 生理恐惧与病理性焦虑的发生机制对比 accDescr: 恐惧具备自然的应激闭环，而焦虑因语言介入演变成失控的控制螺旋 subgraph PrimitiveFear ["纯粹恐惧（动物本能闭环）"] F1["外部危险刺激"] --> F2["本能应激反应<br/>（战斗/逃跑/僵住）"] F2 --> F3["危机解除<br/>身体迅速平复"] end subgraph LanguageAnxiety ["病理性焦虑（人类语言螺旋）"] A1["危险刺激或警报"] --> A2["左脑语言系统介入<br/>虚构灾难叙事"] A2 --> A3["妄图控制一切现实与他人"] A3 --> A4["现实失控感加剧"] A4 --> A2 end ``` 与恐惧不同，人类特有的焦虑更像是一场“无休无止的幽灵缠身（being haunted）”。当生活遭遇变故或听到坏消息时，人类虽然同样会产生恐惧电击，但并不会在采取行动后自然放松，而是会立刻调用语言中枢，将这份恐惧编织成一套极其详尽的文字故事。马莎援引了一项20世纪90年代的心理学研究，该研究旨在探索人类为何是动物界中唯一会常态化自主选择自杀的物种。研究得出的惊人结论是：罪魁祸首正是**语言**。 人类大脑独有的高级语言能力，能够虚构并投射出一副关于未来的抽象画面，而这幅画面在人类心中所引发的恐怖绝望程度，甚至远远超过了死亡本身的阴影。换言之，许多人之所以选择终结生命，是因为无法承受大脑中那个语言故事所制造的永恒恐惧。焦虑的螺旋就此成型： 1. **原初惊恐**：底层脑区受到刺激，释放一波恐惧感。 2. **语言叙事**：大脑迅速编写出一整套关于“未来全完了”的灾难故事。 3. **妄图掌控**：为了消除威胁，大脑开始制定繁琐的防御方案，试图严密控制外界环境、未来走向乃至身边的每一个人。 4. **挫败反馈**：人类根本无法控制宇宙万物的运转，这种无力感再次触发底层恐惧信号。 5. **恶性闭环**：恐惧反刍喂养给更深层的原始脑区，故事被越编越大，控制欲变本加厉，整个系统如脱缰野马般一路狂飙，再也无法回落。 ### [21:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1269s) 左右脑的神经分化：恐惧背后的控制欲与好奇心 为了让听众更直观地理解这一过程，史蒂文拿出iPad准备绘制大脑示意图，请马莎从脑科学角度进行拆解。马莎首先强调，自己并非严格意义上的神经科学家，虽然大脑全脑协同运作、将左右脑绝对对立是一种通俗化的简化，但左右半球在功能偏向与世界体验方式上确实存在极其显著的差异。 左右两个半球通过中央的胼胝体（Corpus callosum）紧密相连。在人类大脑的深处，左右两侧各有一个极其古老的结构——杏仁核（Amygdala）。几乎所有脊椎动物都拥有类似杏仁核的结构，它的核心演化使命就是时刻警惕未知事物，通过拉响警报来保障个体的生存安全。然而，当警报触发后，左右两个脑半球所展现出的神经应对通路截然不同： * **左脑的控制链条**：左侧杏仁核探测到陌生刺激后，会将信号传递给次古老的新层皮质，驱使个体立即琢磨如何“操控与压制”眼前的局势；当信息继续向外传导至负责线型时间、逻辑和语言的左脑最外层新皮质时，左脑便开始疯狂编写语言故事，为其内部滋生的消极情绪辩护与证成，最终锁死在焦虑螺旋之中。 * **右脑的好奇心转化**：右侧杏仁核同样会在遭遇未知与惊恐时猛烈放电，但在右脑的神经回路中，这种突如其来的警觉并没有演变成排斥与防御，而是奇迹般地转化成了强烈的**好奇心**（Curiosity）。 马莎以高速公路上普遍存在的“围观车祸现象”（Rubbernecking）为例生动地阐述了这一机制：当路过惨烈的车祸现场时，几乎所有的司机都会不由自主地踩下刹车、探着脖子往外看。人们一边在道德层面上感到内疚自责，觉得自己像个窥阴癖者，一边却根本无法挪开视线。从演化心理学来看，人类既进化出了“远离危险以保全性命”的避险本能，也进化出了“主动凑近观察以搞清真相”的认知冲动。这种强烈的探究欲能让人类查明悲剧是如何发生的，从而在未来避免重蹈覆辙。这种与生俱来的好奇心，恰恰是人类与恐惧共处并超越焦虑的核心神经钥匙。 ### [23:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1423s) 右脑的“侦探”本能与焦虑-创造力的双向开关 人类对死亡与危险有着刻在骨子里的痴迷。玛莎·贝克（Dr. Martha Beck）指出，一个现代孩子在准备上大学前，仅通过电视或网络就已经目睹了16,000次甚至60,000次谋杀。人们从不写关于普通盗窃的悬疑小说，所有的谜案核心都是凶杀，因为人类对谋杀充满恐惧，进而对其形成近乎病态的执念。面对未知与危险，大脑右半球的杏仁核会激发好奇心，开始扮演“侦探”的角色：它不依赖语言，而是调动鲜活生动的意象与感官细节，将看似不相关的碎片以高度原创和发明性的方式串联起来，试图拼凑出事情的原貌。这种机制一旦启动，人类便立刻进入了极富创造力的状态。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 左右脑对抗与状态切换机制 accDescr: 展示左脑语言主导的焦虑状态与右脑感官主导的创造状态之间的对抗与切换机制。 subgraph LeftBrain["左脑状态 (语言与逻辑)"] A["言语化灾难联想"] --> B["战斗或逃跑反应"] B --> C["焦虑与恐慌蔓延"] end subgraph RightBrain["右脑状态 (感官与创造)"] D["感官具象体验"] --> E["好奇心与模式联结"] E --> F["平静创造与整体感"] end C -- "调动感官/好奇心" --> D F -- "反向抑制" --> B ``` 在翻阅大量关于焦虑的优秀著作时，玛莎发现许多理论和方法仅止步于“如何抚平焦虑”。但无论是作为个体还是理论研究者，这对她来说都远远不够，因为这只是把焦虑抹平到了零度水平。然而，一旦主动跨入右脑、开启创造力，神奇的现象便会发生：正如焦虑会彻底切断创造力一样，创造力也拥有直接关闭焦虑的能力。这两者在神经系统中就像一个“双向切换开关”（Toggle）。各大传统文化中的智者、长者和萨满医者，自古以来都在谈论万物互联的一体性（Oneness），这绝非全新概念。受过哈佛社会学博士系统训练的玛莎，通过设计实验在来访者及网络社群中反复测试这一机制，证实了主动将大脑推向右脑的创造状态，是彻底摆脱这种毁掉无数人生活的焦虑梦魇的关键途径。 面对常常听到的质疑——“世界上有那么多真正的危机，我们难道不该感到恐惧吗？”玛莎给出了一个有力的反问：如果你遭遇了严重车祸、伤势极其惨重，你希望走进手术室为你开刀的外科医生正处于惊慌失措的状态，还是处于沉着平静且具备高度应变创造力的状态？人类由恐惧驱动的行为制造了如今巨大的全球性问题，而解决这些庞大困境的唯一出路，就是唤醒并调动人类大脑深处不可思议的创造潜能。 --- ### [26:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1607s) 负面偏差、一盒小狗与一条眼镜蛇 当史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）询问在深陷焦虑时究竟该如何具体切换到右脑时，玛莎直言这一过程“极其简单”。人类大脑天生偏向焦虑，源自进化赋予我们的“负面偏差”（Negativity Bias）。玛莎用了一个生动的比喻：如果面前有一个盒子里装着15只可爱软萌的小狗和一条眼镜蛇，所有人的视线与注意力瞬间都会被那条毒蛇死死吸住。从进化生存的角度看，优先警惕毒蛇是绝对正确的保命机制。 - 现代文化无限放大了人类的负面偏差，而缺乏将人拉回自然与万物互联的纽带。 - 既然环境无法自然提供放松条件，人们就必须学会用微小的认知技巧“欺骗”大脑重回平衡。 为了展示这种切换机制，玛莎邀请史蒂文现场参与一个互动练习。她让史蒂文回想一件日常中会让他感到焦虑但又不至于陷入全面恐慌的具体情境，并且在镜头前坦率地分享出来。 --- ### [28:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1680s) 亲密关系中的“微型噩梦”与战斗逃跑反应 史蒂文分享了一个许多人都能深切共鸣的场景：当伴侣明显情绪低落、闷闷不乐，甚至从面部表情和散发出的气场就能感知到异样，但她却不肯明说究竟为什么不高兴。置身于这种窒息的低气压中，史蒂文完全猜不透原因。 玛莎对此评价道，这是无数人在日常生活中都会经历的“微型家庭噩梦”。她让史蒂文闭上眼睛沉浸到这个记忆中，细致体察此时身体与情绪的即时反应。史蒂文坦言，只要一想到那个画面： - 呼吸立刻变浅变短； - 浑身肌肉紧绷，内心升起极度的不耐烦，极度渴望立刻得到答案来消解内心的未知恐慌； - 神经系统进入了典型的“战斗或逃跑”（Fight or Flight）高度激活状态——一方面想夺门而逃以脱离这种压抑，另一方面又想迎头逼问“你到底怎么了”来发起进攻，言语甚至变得具有攻击性。 --- ### [29:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1761s) 一颗虚拟的多汁甜橙：用感官想象击溃焦虑 确认史蒂文已经完全处于应激状态后，玛莎引导他进行了一段纯粹调动感官的具象化冥想： > “闭上眼睛，想象你正握着一颗沉甸甸、饱满多汁、处于最佳成熟期的甜橙。你甚至能提前闻到那一股扑鼻的柑橘清香。你低头咬破橙皮的封口，感受齿尖破开果皮时那一小股瞬间喷溅出来的柠檬酸雾，还有果皮内层微微的苦涩。随着你深咬下去，甘甜微酸的汁水涌入唇齿之间。你能清晰触碰到果肉上的细腻经络与内部纤维。你用手指慢慢剥开果皮，指甲缝里渗着汁液，嗅觉完全被果香包裹。现在，把剥开的果肉凑到嘴边挤压，让新鲜的汁水流入喉咙，彻底咀嚼、咽下，全身心享受这份味觉、触觉乃至剥开时的声音……” 引导结束后，玛莎询问史蒂文此时的感受。史蒂文惊奇地发现：“我的焦虑彻底消失了。” 玛莎解释说，这正是因为她引导他使用了由右脑主管的“感官想象”（Sensory Imagination），而非左脑主管的“言语想象”（Verbal Imagination）。左脑擅长用文字编织未来的恐怖故事——担忧生病、遭遇意外、亲人离世、存款不足，这些未发生的灾难在脑海中不断制造恐慌；而一旦将意识强行锚定在具体的感官细节中，身体立刻由紧绷转向深度松弛。皮质醇（Cortisol）、糖皮质激素和肾上腺素的狂飙戛然而止，取而代之的是血清素、多巴胺以及促进信任与联结的“照顾与结盟”（Tend-and-Befriend）激素的分泌。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 应对伴侣情绪的两种身心模式对比 accDescr: 对比处于左脑焦虑模式与右脑安抚模式下，面对伴侣负面情绪的不同生理反应与沟通方式。 subgraph FearState["左脑主导：恐惧与应激"] F1["感知伴侣不悦 (未知危险)"] --> F2["分泌肾上腺素/皮质醇"] F2 --> F3["攻击或逃跑反应 (不耐烦、质问)"] F3 --> F4["激化矛盾与防御机制"] end subgraph CalmState["右脑主导：平静与好奇"] C1["激活感官锚定 (甜橙想象)"] --> C2["释放多巴胺与催产素"] C2 --> C3["好奇与共情 (克里斯·沃斯谈判模式)"] C3 --> C4["成为包容对方情绪的平静场域"] end ``` 这种生理状态的转换能彻底改变冲突的处理方式。玛莎引用了她在书里写到的前 FBI 顶级人质谈判专家克里斯·沃斯（Chris Voss）的策略：当面对手里攥着人质、情绪失控且随时准备开枪杀人的凶残恐怖分子时，沃斯教导的应对方式并非如好莱坞大片那般硬碰硬，而是用极尽温和轻柔的语调，带着真诚的好奇心去倾听和共情对方的感受。人类的杏仁核本质上就像一只受惊的小动物，如果气势汹汹地冲上去大吼“告诉我你到底想要什么”，只会让它陷入更深的绝望与防御。学会掌控这一转换技巧，便能在他人焦虑崩溃时，成为一处散发宁静与包容的能量场。 --- ### [34:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=2048s) 镜像书写：哈佛教授唤醒右脑的特殊游戏 史蒂文询问，难道每一次想要切断焦虑，都必须在脑海中剥一颗橙子吗？玛莎笑着表示方法有很多，并拿出了另一个她最喜欢的实操技巧。这个练习来自玛莎在哈佛大学期间曾担任助教的艺术家兼教授威廉·赖曼（William Reimann）。赖曼教授常常用这个训练来绕过学生过度活跃的左脑，强行调动右脑参与创作，因为左脑在空间与绘图能力上十分拙劣。 玛莎让史蒂文拿起手写笔，在平板屏幕的右侧区域按照平时的习惯签下自己的名字。史蒂文完成了一个流畅且略显复杂的签名。紧接着，玛莎给出了真正的挑战： - 将笔移到签名的左侧； - 尝试以完全镜像（Mirror Writing）、完全反向的方式，从右往左把自己的名字倒着签出来； - 不设时间限制，允许反复修改擦除。 史蒂文刚动笔就发现大脑完全卡壳：“我第一笔就写错了，天啊，这实在太难了！”玛莎一边鼓励他放平呼吸、寻找写字时的肢体节奏感，一边提醒他：使用真实的铅笔和纸张这类具有实体触感的工具，往往能让人更容易绕开左脑逻辑，直接接入右脑的神经通路。在专注与笨拙的反向笔画摸索中，大脑的所有注意力都被拉回当下的空间建构，原本盘旋在心头的焦虑杂音彻底消散。 ### [03:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=230s) 右脑连接与重塑大脑的“举重训练” 在完成反向绘制名字的练习时，斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）抱怨自己的签名太复杂，并开玩笑说画出来的结果“太糟糕了”，而玛莎·贝克（Martha Beck）博士则鼓励他做得非常出色。贝克指出，当人处于焦虑状态时，实际上是无法完成这项任务的；只有彻底沉浸、专注投入其中才行。因为在这个过程中，大脑正在创建从未存在过的新神经元突触——由于从未做过这种事，这在根本上改变了大脑结构，教会了它一项全新的技能。这与儿童初学写字时的经历完全一致。 这项练习的关键在于调动了大脑右半球。贝克提到她们曾用过的一本书中的理念：“绘画就是忘掉所见之物的名字”。只要你把一个物体称作“杯子”，你就画不出真实的它，你画出的只是头脑中关于杯子的既定概念；唯有忘掉它的名称，它才会还原为纯粹的轮廓与线条。签名也是如此，必须将其剥离为纯粹的形状，而对形状的感知正是右脑的功能。这种深度学习对大脑而言就像是一场高强度的“举重训练”，强行构建全新的突触连接，让人进入一种类似孩童在大自然中自由奔跑时的深度探索状态。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 左脑模式与右脑模式的认知路径对比 accDescr: 对比左脑在概念命名下的机械认知与右脑通过纯粹形状感知进行的神经突触重塑。 subgraph LeftBrain["左脑主导（语言与评判）"] A["辨识概念名称<br/>（如：'杯子'、'签名'）"] --> B["调用既有刻板印象"] B --> C["难以描绘真实形态<br/>产生挫败与焦虑"] end subgraph RightBrain["右脑主导（空间与创造）"] D["剥离既有语言标签"] --> E["还原为纯粹几何形状"] E --> F["强力构建全新神经突触<br/>（类似认知维度的举重）"] end ``` ### [37:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=2266s) NASA天才研究：学校教育如何扼杀天赋与无评判的自然学习 贝克引用了 NASA 在 1960 年代开展的一项旨在寻找创造力天才的研究。该测试最初面向成年人（如大学毕业生），结果显示仅有 2% 的人达到创造力天才的标准。随后研究人员将相同的测试应用于 4 至 5 岁的幼童，结果惊人：高达 98% 的幼儿都是纯粹的创造力天才（贝克幽默地补充说，剩下的 2% 大概只是那天心情不好）。从 4 岁的天才到成年后的才华泯灭，核心原因在于人类停止了尝试全新的事物。 学校教育就像流水线工厂，教会人们用完全不同的方式去学习——那种方式充斥着羞耻感、恐惧、评判以及缺乏实质意义的人造技能。在传统教育中，一切都被贴上“对与错”的标签；然而在自然界中，根本不存在审判。为了让学员重新体验这种天然的学习方式，贝克曾带领客户团队深入森林，由经验丰富的荒野专家指导，只给他们石头和木棍要求钻木取火。实验唯一的规则是“全程禁止说话”，因为语言系统属于左脑。有些团队甚至在沉默中摸索了整整 4 个小时，经历无数次尝试与挫折，但无一例外最终都成功了。当学员们手捧火星、添入干燥苔藓并轻轻吹气，火焰腾空而起的刹那，所有人都会体会到一种普罗米修斯式的崇高力量感——“天哪，我们无所不能”。自然界不会给出 A 或 F 的评分，它只有客观事实：要么着火，要么没着火，没有任何人为的评判。 - **NASA 创造力天才测试数据对比**：成年大学毕业生中仅占 2%；4 至 5 岁幼童中达到天才标准的比例高达 98%。 - **荒野钻木取火实验规则**：团队协作、禁用语言交流（强制关闭左脑语言中枢）、以大自然为反馈（非人类评判标准）。 ### [40:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=2430s) CAT模型与应对焦虑的误区：它不是坏掉的机器，而是受惊的动物 针对如何将右脑机制应用到日常生活中以缓解焦虑，贝克提出了贯穿全书的三步法框架，缩写为 **CAT**： 1. **Calm（安抚）**：平息处于应激状态的脑神经； 2. **Art（艺术）**：唤醒创造力与直觉表达； 3. **Transcendence（超越）**：迈向生命的更高意义。 贝克重点阐述了第一阶段“安抚”的科学本质。大多数人走进咨询室时都会说：“我想对抗焦虑、彻底消灭它、把它干趴下。”人们习惯将焦虑视作一台“损坏的机器”，但它本质上是一只“受惊的动物”。如果有人指着你说“我要彻底打倒你、消灭你”，你只会更加恐惧。攻击自身的焦虑，反而会成倍放大恐惧。历史上精神病学曾陷入极端机械化的歧途，例如通过眼眶将螺丝刀（脑白质切除锥）刺入大脑搅拌来治疗顽固焦虑，这种将大脑当作机械零件维修的思维正是极端的左脑模式。 每个人其实生来都知道如何对待受惊的生命。贝克让斯蒂芬设想清晨在门前台阶上发现一只吓得发抖的小狗会怎么做。斯蒂芬回答，自己会放慢脚步甚至停下，蹲下身子，极其温柔地打招呼，绝不强求它靠近，而是给它充分的时间与空间静静陪伴。贝克观察到，当斯蒂芬谈及这一幕时，他整个人散发出的能量瞬间改变了，脸上浮现出极其温和包容的神情。贝克强调，我们对待自己往往过于残忍（例如通过各种激进的“身体黑客/biohack”手段强迫自我），而真正需要学会的是像对待那只小狗一样，对内在脆弱的自己报以温柔。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 应对焦虑的错误方式与受惊动物模式对比 accDescr: 展示将焦虑视作故障机器进行对抗与视作受惊动物予以倾听接纳的两种截然不同的心理结果。 subgraph Mechanistic["机械对抗思维（左脑模式）"] direction TB M1["将焦虑视作故障机器"] --> M2["压制、抗拒、强行消灭"] M2 --> M3["激化内置防御，焦虑成倍放大"] end subgraph AnimalCompassion["受惊动物思维（CAT安抚模式）"] direction TB A1["视作受伤害怕的内在动物"] --> A2["蹲下身子、提供空间与倾听"] A2 --> A3["焦虑神经回路逐渐降温平息"] end ``` ### [43:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=2598s) 躯体觉察与表达性书写：内在声音需要被听见 为了在现实中践行这一理念，贝克引导斯蒂芬进行了一场现场心理演练：设想伴侣正情绪反常、冷淡紧绷，却不肯说明原因。通常人们会试图去外在控制局面——送花讨好、争吵或过度表现；但最有效的方法是向内探寻，寻找内心深处那个正在害怕的自我。斯蒂芬闭上眼睛觉察身体，发现那种紧绷焦虑感真实地盘踞在自己的“胸口”。 贝克引导斯蒂芬在心中对胸口那团情绪对话：“我在这里陪着你，我知道对方的反应吓到了你，但我会保护你。你完全有权利去感受你的感受，告诉我你想说的任何事，我绝不会伤害你，也绝不会强行压制你或逼你消失。”练习结束后，斯蒂芬坦言胸口的情绪“音量明显调小了”，并询问这是否意味着在焦虑时刻应当将感受写下来。 贝克证实了这一做法的科学有效性，并引用了心理学家詹姆斯·潘尼贝克（James Pennebaker）的开创性研究： - **潘尼贝克书写表达实验**：实验要求一组学生每天针对让自己痛苦烦恼的事连续书写 15 分钟（对照组仅记录日常流水账）。虽然写完当下许多人因直面痛苦而落泪，并在随后的几个小时内感到情绪动荡，但在随后的数周乃至数年跟踪中，这些学生的就医次数显著减少、焦虑大幅降低，人际关系和整体健康状况均得到全面提升。 - **表达的本质不是为了展示**：这种书写无需给任何人看，甚至自己都不必重读，其核心功能在于“纯粹的表达与被听见”。 贝克将这种内在疗愈提升到社会层面，类比了纳尔逊·曼德拉（Nelson Mandela）出任南非总统后设立的“真相与和解委员会（Truth and Reconciliation Commission）”。那些曾遭受灭顶暴行的受害者，通过向加害者和公众倾诉自己的遭遇，在免于流血冲突的前提下实现了巨大程度的心灵卸荷。人类内心深处受创的碎片，与社会中遭受创伤的群体一样，最根本的需求就是“被真正听见”。 ### [47:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=2828s) 焦虑螺旋与路障钉刺带的比喻 斯蒂芬将话题引向对话初期贝克提出的一个生动比喻：焦虑就像警匪追逐战中警车在地面铺设的金属钉刺带（road spikes），车辆一旦碾压上去便会爆胎失控。斯蒂芬追问这一比喻在神经机制上究竟代表着什么。贝克解释称，这形象地揭示了大脑陷入“焦虑螺旋”（anxiety spiral，亦称焦虑循环）时的失控状态。一旦陷在其中，盲目踩油门只会让车辆毁坏殆尽；唯一的解脱路径就是跳出惯性运转的旧模式——停下车来，从源头上拆除触发这一连锁恶性循环的内在机制。 ### [47:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=2864s) 从平静到艺术：破除焦虑死循环与创造的治愈力 当人陷入焦虑的恶性循环时，就如同汽车驶向单向设置的“破胎刺”——若强行倒车只会彻底扎爆轮胎。唯一脱困的办法是先踩住刹车、完全停下来，再设法排除障碍后退。在生理层面上，倒着写名字或在脑海中精细想象剥开、品尝一个橙子的过程，正是这种“停车”操作。它强行中断了恐慌回路，清除心理上的“破胎器”，并重新搭建通向大脑镇定区域的神经通路。然而现代文化总在不断兜售恐怖故事，不让人获得片刻喘息。玛莎·贝克博士指出，在缓解焦虑的“CAT”三步模型中，当个体通过感官体验达成平静（Calm）后，下一步出人意料的关键要素是艺术（Artistry）——但这里的艺术并非狭隘的绘画技法，而是广义的“创造与造物”，即在三维空间中构建实体、促成事件或制作一档播客。 史蒂芬·巴特利特深有共鸣地分享了他最近的经历：上个周末他在高压下倍感焦虑，便与伴侣前往一个随机挑选的阁楼艺术工坊。他此前从未画过画，但在那间阁楼里，他们面对两块巨大的硬纸板，拿起五颜六色的喷漆罐尽情涂鸦了整整三个小时，完全沉浸其中并彻底“忘却了自我”。玛莎·贝克指出，这正是创造力的魔力所在。数据表明，经历创伤的人如果能通过画画来表达创伤，即便完全不具备专业绘画技巧，其罹患创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的概率也能降低整整80%。 这种创造冲动深植于人类天性之中。贝克提到她的伴侣平时极其忙碌，最近却热衷于串珠手链，这项爱好虽占时间且毫无实用功能，却带给她难以言喻的满足与宁静。从五千年前的古埃及法老墓穴，到亚马逊雨林中与世隔绝的原住民部落，人类考古与人类学观察中总能发现串珠手链这类“珍贵却无用的造物”。正如在人类历史上最残酷的牙买加奴隶殖民地，遭受非人压迫、被剥夺一切的奴隶们依然孕育出了雷鬼音乐与奔放的舞蹈。人类借由艺术表达生命的韧性是不可战胜的，然而当今功利主义文化却极力将其边缘化，斥之为“周末玩玩可以，但这能赚钱吗？快去找份正经工作”。 - 创伤与艺术干预：经历心理创伤后通过绘画表达自身体验者，罹患 PTSD 的几率降低 80%。 - 无用之美的普遍性：无论是 5,000 年前的埃及古墓还是未受现代文明侵染的亚马逊部落，人类无一例外都在制造缺乏实用功能却蕴含精神慰藉的装饰品与艺术品。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 焦虑与创造的心理机制对比 accDescr: 展示左脑焦虑收缩循环与右脑艺术心流扩展循环的对比过程。 subgraph LeftBrain["左脑机制：焦虑死循环"] A["物质抓取与控制欲"] --> B["恐惧触发神经警报"] B --> C["紧绷收缩 / 陷入破胎刺困境"] end subgraph RightBrain["右脑机制：CAT 扩展循环"] D["生理镇静 (Calm)<br/>倒写姓名/感官想象"] --> E["艺术创造 (Artistry)<br/>沉浸式动手创造"] E --> F["心流与超越 (Transcendence)<br/>自我消融与万物相联"] end LeftBrain -.->|"开关效应 (Toggle) 激活创作"| RightBrain ``` ### [51:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=3082s) 大脑的开关效应：从艺术创造走向心流与超越 从脑神经机制来看，艺术创作之所以能瞬间平息焦虑，源于大脑半球之间的“开关效应”（Toggle Effect）。左半脑结构根植于对物质利益的抓取、资源的聚敛、对他人及环境的绝对控制，并且时刻处于恐惧驱动之中。神经科学观察发现，焦虑与创造力在生理上无法同时处于激活状态——只要个体一旦开启表达性书写或拿起喷漆进行创作，大脑就会像扳动机械开关一样，啪的一刻关闭左脑的焦虑反应，转而激活右脑的创造功能。 与左脑向内紧缩、越缩越死的恐惧螺旋相反，右半脑存在着一个向外延展的上升螺旋：从最初的生理镇定（Calm），进阶到具象的艺术创造（Artistry），最终通往心流与精神超越（Transcendence / Awakening）。心理学家米哈里·契克森米哈赖（Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi）将其定义为心流状态：个体在挑战极具难度、几乎濒临能力极限的任务时，会产生一种被称为“掌控的狂热”（The Rage to Master）的极致专注。 当突破临界点、彻底进入心流境界后，体验就如同展翅飞翔般美妙。在这一阶段，个体的狭隘自我感荡然无存，对掌控局面的焦虑执念彻底消融；人们不再觉得是“自己在努力创造某物”，而是感受到某种宏大的创生力量正在借由自己的身体自然流淌。贝克博士强调，这种与造物同频的喜悦与极乐，本应是人类日常生活的大脑常态，若能普遍找回这种状态，人类的整体意识形态将迎来彻底的蜕变。 ### [53:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=3216s) 现代男女的痛苦分化：整合与个体化的发育错位 针对当代社会中青年男性普遍丧失意义感与目标感，而年轻女性的抑郁焦虑发病率却呈爆炸式增长的现象，玛莎·贝克从脑神经发育与发展心理学角度剖析了深层成因。男性与女性在青春期的心理发展轨迹截然不同，传统部落社会对此有着极为精准的应对智慧，而现代文明却严重错位。 根据心理学理论，男性天生偏向于“分化与独立个体”，他们毕生的成熟任务是学会如何“融入群体并与他人整合”（Integration）。在传统社会中，年长智者会将处于青春期的男孩们集中带入荒野，举行严酷的成年礼试炼：划破面部留下疤痕、烧毁他们过去的一切随身财物、甚至剥离他们儿时的名字。长者在灌木丛中制造令人毛骨悚然的声响，让男孩们直面死亡恐惧。这种试炼的本质是粉碎膨胀的个体小我（Ego），类似于军队中严厉的教官通过极限训练打破士兵的傲慢，使其深刻意识到：“我并不是世界的中心，没有身边的兄弟我无法生存，我必须在浩瀚的自然面前低下头颅。”在历经谦卑与整合后，他们才有资格为自己选择一个全新的成年名字，以成熟男人的身份回归部落。 相反，女性在心理特质上天生偏向于“高联结与高整合”，女性成熟的核心心理任务是完成“个体化”（Individuation）——即从复杂的人际羁绊中剥离，寻找独立的自我。传统文化在女孩初潮时会将其单独安置在昏暗安静的茅屋中，每日只送食物，让她们在完全的独处中内省，体会“即使孤身一人，我也安然无恙”，从而在内心扎下独立自我认同的根基。当完成整合的男人与完成个体化的女人重新走到一起时，双方达成了心智成熟的平衡。 现代社会的悲剧在于彻底颠倒了这一古老秩序： - 现代青年男性的个体化倾向被互联网算法无限放大，他们沉迷于虚拟的战斗对抗和个人成就竞争，却彻底失去了长者引领下的谦卑与敬畏感。 - 年轻女孩正处于急需建立独立个体的敏感期，却被强制裹挟在社交媒体那充满敌意、互相精神撕咬的“有毒人际网络”风暴中，既未被传授静心冥想与向内探寻的智慧，也失去了在孤独中汲取力量的可能。 ### [57:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=3462s) 青年男性的自杀危机与战斗控制的幻象 在探讨人类独有的自杀意念时，史蒂芬抛出了一个沉重的事实：在英国，45岁以下男性的头号死因至今依然是自杀，年轻男性的自我毁灭率令人触目惊心。针对这种极端现象背后的深层动力，贝克博士借用莎士比亚经典剧作中哈姆雷特的著名独白进行了剖析：“默然忍受命运暴虐的毒箭，或是挺身反抗人世无涯的苦难，通过斗争把它们扫荡干净，这两种行为，哪一种更高贵？”哈姆雷特在目睹父亲横死、面对无常世界的残酷打击时，心中盘旋的正是“我为何还要活在这个人人难逃一死的世界？不如一了百了”。 这种自我毁灭倾向与男性自幼被灌输的控制模式密切相关。整个主流文化都在向男性灌输“战斗是实现控制的唯一途径”。影视作品不断强化这一叙事：一旦恐惧来袭，唯一的解决方式就是拿起武器。贝克举了电影《黑客帝国》（The Matrix）中的荒诞对比：主角尼奥（Neo）已经觉醒并掌握了用意念重塑整个数字宇宙的能力，然而当面对危机需要行动时，他脱口而出的台词依然是：“我们需要枪，很多很多的枪。” 这种对武器与暴力的痴迷深植于人类男性的基因与文化编码之中。然而，当一个身处极度恐惧螺旋中的年轻男性发现外部世界充满无法被武力或个人成就征服的困境时，他唯一被教会的应对机制依然是“拔剑战斗”。当外部战斗宣告彻底无望，这种向外寻求毁灭与控制的攻击性便会调转方向，残酷地刺向自己的肉体与生命。 ### [59:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=3544s) 迷茫年轻男性的困境与传统仪式的治愈力量 谈及历史上年轻男性往往被有毒领袖煽动并军事化的问题，玛莎·贝克（Dr. Martha Beck）指出，纵观所有种族灭绝事件，本质上都依赖有毒的领导者接触并操纵脆弱孤立的年轻男性，把他们训练成对抗他人的武器。如果这些年轻人处于孤立状态，没有年长智者（elders）带领他们参与群体协作，他们体内的攻击性能量就会转向自身，导致触目惊心的自残与自杀。 针对年轻男性的危机，贝克博士认为答案应当向人类的先祖寻求。她举了自己以前常一起去林中生火的导师迈克尔·特罗达（Michael Trotta）的例子。特罗达深受美洲原住民奥达瓦部落（Odawa tribe）传统的影响，常年穿着一件印有“倾听祖父”（Listen to grandfather）的衬衫，专门带领迷茫、受伤的年轻男性走进荒野。他让这群男孩经历传统社会中的试炼：学习如何在野外共同生火、将搜寻到的食物分给彼此、运用狩猎与建造技能来服务集体。贝克博士亲眼见证了他如何将一个又一个男孩治愈，而这种方法其实并不复杂。 史蒂芬（Steven Bartlett）追问为什么狩猎和求生技能具有如此强大的治愈效果。贝克解释道，这是因为人类的基因与神经系统天生就是为了这种环境而演化的。现代社会给予大多数人的生活环境极其异化且不正常——她指着录音棚现场直言，四周全是人造的直角线条，而在大自然中，直角除了极少数晶体结构外几乎不存在。人类精密的神经系统本是与丛林、沙滩、荒漠深度绑定的，身处冰冷的人造空间让人本能地感到恐慌。史蒂芬打趣说，听她这么说真想抛下一切“逃跑”，但他又想到自己可能逃到巴厘岛的海滩上还是会忍不住开始做播客、继续创作。贝克笑着肯定道，史蒂芬拥有源源不断的创造力与平静中带有活力的能量，而持续创造正是保持精神与身体健康的核心支柱。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 从迷茫年轻男性到治愈的演化心理学路径 accDescr: 展示孤立年轻男性在失去引导时走向自我毁灭，通过传统祖先试炼与自然连接恢复心理健康的机制。 subgraph Problem["现代困境与危机"] A["孤立无援的年轻男性"] --> B["缺乏长者社群引导"] B --> C["被极端势力操纵军事化"] B --> D["能量内卷指向自身（自残 / 自杀）"] end subgraph ModernEnv["现代异化环境"] E["充满直角的人造环境"] --> F["神经系统本能感到威胁与异化"] end subgraph Solution["先祖传统的自然试炼"] G["长者导师引领荒野求生"] --> H["团队协作（生火 / 分享食物）"] H --> I["运用演化技能为群体服务"] I --> J["神经系统重归秩序，创伤获得治愈"] end D -.-> G F -.-> G ``` --- ### [01:02:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=3734s) 摩门教童年：末日恐惧与荒诞的神学教条 史蒂芬将话题转向贝克博士的早年生活，探讨塑造她一生的深刻背景——她在十岁前作为摩门教徒的成长经历。贝克回忆，她不仅出生在一个摩门教家庭，更身处一个封闭的摩门社区。在那里，人与人之间不称呼“先生”或“女士”，而是互称“史密斯弟兄”（Brother Smith）或“史密斯姐妹”（Sister Smith）。 宗教灌输从一岁半就开始了。长辈们向幼童灌输荒唐的教理，例如宣称“如果男人一生虔诚奉献给摩门教会，死后就会获得一颗属于自己的专属星球，以及要多少有多少的女人”——这对于一个三岁幼童来说完全超出了理解范畴。更可怕的是末日审判的画面：教会宣称耶稣将会跨越群山降临，届时大地所有的坟墓都会爆裂开来，死者真实的肉身将腾空飞起去追随耶稣（这也是摩门教禁止火葬、坚持土葬的原因）。 这种教条给年幼的贝克带来了漫长而恐怖的精神折磨。她反复做着同一个噩梦：耶稣从山脊现身，大地裂开，死人纷纷升天，身边的所有人都在往上飞升，唯独幼小的她拼尽全力在地面上蹦跳，却怎么也跳不高，一次次重重跌回地面。童年的她时刻生活在极度的恐惧中，并且因为所见所闻皆与现实脱节，她甚至不知道什么是真实的，只能无奈地认定“生活原本就是如此折磨”。 --- ### [01:04:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=3860s) 28岁记忆解封与父亲的“为神说谎” 直到28岁，一段被贝克博士深埋且压抑的创伤记忆才如同火山爆发般冲破意识防线——她在童年时期遭受了父亲的性侵犯。此前在高中时，她曾对朋友透露过零碎片段，但随后就彻底遗忘解离。 贝克的父亲是一位声名显赫的学者兼摩门教护教先锋，终其一生的职业就是从学术上捍卫并验证摩门教义的合理性。贝克曾私下询问过与父亲共事的五位翻译研究助手，他们透露父亲常常在学术著作中肆意捏造虚假证据，然后故意用晦涩罕见的外语写成脚注，以便无人能够核验真伪。在教会内部，这种行为被冠以“为神说谎”（lying for the Lord）的荒谬头衔。贝克指出，这本质上是假设了一个鼓励信徒通过撒谎来接近神明的信仰体系，这彻底扭曲了父亲的灵魂，也让贝克的童年陷入彻底的精神错乱。 那段封存的性侵创伤，是在贝克经历了一次外科手术后浮现的。在手术过程中，贝克体验到了神秘的“光之体验”。那道光在手术中对她说：“你即将经历一段极其痛苦艰难的时期，但我一直与你同在，永不离弃，切勿忘记这一点。”正是基于这道光的承诺，贝克立誓终生不再说谎。 - 创伤性闪回的触发点：贝克的大女儿长到了5岁——恰好是当年贝克开始遭遇父亲性侵害的年龄，且女儿的长相与5岁时的贝克一模一样。 - 侵入性闪回（intrusive flashbacks）的特点：它不是普通的记忆回想，而是像在眼前真实发生一样，强烈的痛苦与恐惧瞬间将整个人完全吞没。 - 身体遗留的伤痕：28岁那场伴随“光之体验”的手术，实际上是为了修复贝克5岁时因遭遇性暴力导致的体内严重撕裂、内出血以及异常增生的大量严重疤痕组织。 --- ### [01:07:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=4061s) 母亲的荒诞反应与迟来的宽恕 当侵入性闪回彻底击垮贝克时，母亲恰好打电话来追问她为什么不回家探望。恪守“不再说谎”誓言的贝克鼓起勇气，向母亲坦白了父亲性侵自己的真相，原本预想着母亲会陷入震怒或否认，但母亲的冷淡与顺从彻底令人心寒。母亲在电话里平静地回答：“嗯，确实是这样，我相信你，这很合理。”母亲解释称自己比贝克更了解父亲，并直言父亲“确实从来不是一个诚实的人”。 然而，母亲接下来提出的应对方式却极其怪异而残酷：“既然如此，你现在最好赶紧过来，给你父亲做个蛋糕。”这句“为你五岁时的强暴犯做个蛋糕，以此保护教会的名誉”，精准地概括了贝克从小到大承受的病态家庭环境。贝克强撑着把蛋糕做好、送去并端给父亲，但那次之后，她彻底无法再回到那个家庭。 事发时贝克当面质问了父亲。大约十年后，当父亲年逾九旬（父亲52岁时生下贝克，当时已90或91岁）且贝克终于在内心完成自我和解后，她决定再次去见父亲，亲口告诉他自己已经宽恕了他。贝克回忆，父亲晚年是一个极其凄惨、诡异且严重精神解离的人。他拥有极高的智商，却在现实与教条之间选择了后者，把一生耗费在强迫他人接受谎言的工作中，加上二战战场的心理创伤，父亲的灵魂早已被彻底击碎。贝克特别强调，自己选择宽恕是为了放下包袱，但“任何正在收听本期播客的人，都绝无义务必须去宽恕曾经伤害过你的人”。 ### [01:10:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=4227s) 对峙与否认：“那是恶魔干的” 当被问及父亲是否曾承认过虐待行为时，玛莎·贝克坦言父亲从未真正低头认罪。但他的回应方式极其诡异：他并没有断然否认说“我从没做过那种事”，而是推脱道：“噢，但那是恶魔（the evil one）干的。”在玛莎成长的摩门教家庭语境里，长久以来的谎言就是“玛莎小时候曾被魔鬼侵犯，所以身上才留下了伤痕”。父亲将罪责归咎于恶魔——或许指代撒旦，或许指代他自身邪恶分裂的那一部分。在玛莎的整个人生中，父亲几乎从未与她进行过正常的对话，他常常会在交谈中突然切换语言，甚至在物理空间上直接拔腿逃跑，举止荒诞而怪异。 至于母亲，在最初那通电话里，母亲曾当场承认“听起来确实像那么回事”，但后来却全盘推翻。为了继续与丈夫生活，母亲不可能在丈夫面前站在女儿这边。后来三人一同在心理治疗师的诊室对质时，玛莎当面质问母亲：“你当时为什么对我说你同意我的说法，觉得合情合理？”母亲竟然轻描淡写地搪塞说：“噢，我当时以为你在开玩笑呢。”母亲此后再未承认过半句，那是玛莎最后一次见到母亲，从此彻底断绝了联系。 然而，玛莎令人震惊地表示，如果童年时非要在父母之间选一个待在一起，她宁愿选择父亲。因为她的母亲整日浸泡在巨大的痛苦与暴怒之中，玛莎从未在母亲身边感受过哪怕一秒钟的安全感。在摩门教教义中，信徒认为孩子是主动选择降生到特定父母身边的。母亲在生了五个孩子并经历一次死胎后，身心早已彻底垮掉，陷入严重的抑郁与绝望，不料之后又生了三个孩子。玛莎在八个幸存的孩子中排行老七，母亲对最后这四个孩子怀有极深的怨恨，认定是他们强行把自己塞给了她。母亲终日卧床、以泪洗面，深恨这些孩子夺走了她的人生。 --- ### [01:13:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=4401s) 闭路电视里的葬礼与跨代创伤的渊源 多年以后，一位断联三十年的姐姐在疫情期间突然给玛莎发来短信，附上了一条闭路电视直播链接：“咱妈的葬礼正在直播。”那天发生了一件奇特的事：玛莎原本打算出门，内心却突然涌起强烈的冲动，想要躺回床上看电视——这两件事都是她白天绝不会做的。她坐在床上观看了母亲的葬礼，而这场葬礼带来了奇妙的释怀与印证。她的一位兄弟走上讲台致辞，开场白竟然是：“如果你来这里是希望能听到关于母爱的感人故事，那你就走错葬礼了。”兄弟姐妹们纷纷感慨，母亲不仅仅是“患有抑郁症”，而是“抑郁本身就是她这个人”。目睹母亲的一生，玛莎心中没有怨恨，只有巨大的悲伤、同情与心碎——母亲被困在疯狂的体制与宗教之中，毫无力量地虚度一生，承受了常人难以想象的痛苦。 当史蒂文·巴特利特问起，除了宗教体制的压迫之外，父母自身是否也经历过可怕的创伤时，玛莎揭开了这个家族更为黑暗的代际创伤秘密： - **外祖母的病态人格**：玛莎母亲的母亲是一个彻头彻尾的心理变态（psychopath）。作为一名瑞典裔女性，她在二战期间竟然公开支持纳粹，毫无道德知觉。 - **父亲遭受的极端虐待**：玛莎的父亲童年时被自己的亲生母亲严重虐待与性侵。母亲不仅对他有强烈的性侵犯行为，甚至会在弄伤他之后，将蜜蜂的毒刺和蜂毒涂抹在他的生殖器上进行折磨。这种骇人听闻的家庭暴力在家族内部早已是公开的秘密。 --- ### [01:15:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=4552s) 谎言削弱身体：不可思议的肌肉抗阻测试 童年遭受的重创在玛莎身上刻下了极深的烙印。从十三岁起，自杀念头开始萌生；到了十六岁，自杀冲动已经演变成一场每天都在上演的殊死搏斗。整个十七、十八、十九岁，她用尽全身力气才勉强克制住结束生命的冲动。这种状态一直延续到二十多岁，直到三十二岁那年，她才第一次意识到自己度过了人生中第一个“没有想过自杀的日子”。那种长期想死的渴望，源自庞大而无法排解的身体与心理双重剧痛。身心本是一体，玛莎在《Integrity 的法则》（*The Way of Integrity*）中阐述过一个核心洞见：**当我们说谎时，身体会瞬间丧失力量**。 为了证明这一点，玛莎在演播室现场为史蒂文做了一个肌肉测试（Muscle Testing）： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Body Truth vs Verbal Lie Muscle Response accDescr: Diagram showing how the body responds with strength to truth and collapses when speaking a lie. subgraph MindBody["身心反应机制"] A["口头陈述测试"] --> B{"陈述内容真实性"} B -- "违背身体事实: '我喜欢呕吐'" --> C["大脑言语系统产生认知分裂"] C --> D["神经肌肉失联 / 手臂无力下坠"] B -- "符合身体事实: '我喜欢新鲜空气'" --> E["神经系统与身体现实对齐"] E --> F["肌肉锁止有力 / 稳稳抗住下压"] end ``` 史蒂文平举手臂，玛莎用力向下按压。第一次，玛莎要求他一边用力抵抗一边说出违心谎言：“我喜欢呕吐（I love to vomit）。”史蒂文拼尽全力，手臂却毫无悬念地被玛莎瞬间按了下去。史蒂文大感惊愕，直呼太不可思议。接着玛莎让他说出真话：“我喜欢新鲜空气（I love fresh air）。”这一次无论玛莎怎么用力按压，史蒂文的手臂都纹丝不动，稳如磐石。史蒂文描述那种神奇的感觉：“当我撒谎说我喜欢呕吐时，我的力量仿佛瞬间跟手部切断了联系，我完全被困在大脑的思维里，甚至无法调动身体去对抗外界的压力。”玛莎解释道，测谎仪之所以对除心理变态之外的所有人都有效，正是因为**身体永远活在现实中，身体是绝对诚实的**；唯有大脑的语言系统会编造谎言并强迫我们相信。 --- ### [01:19:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=4748s) 讨好式忍耐与“一度转向”：将痛苦视为良师 玛莎进一步将这种“身体被大脑欺骗”的现象延伸到更普遍的日常生活之中。她常常在大型宴会厅或礼堂发表演讲，讲到一半时，她会突然停下来发问：“现场的各位，你们现在坐得舒服吗？”所有人都会异口同声地回答：“舒服，挺好的。”玛莎会再三追问：“大家真的、由衷地觉得完全舒服吗？”听众依然催促她继续讲，坚称自己很舒适。这时玛莎会抛出灵魂一问：“如果你们此刻独自待在家里，有任何人会保持现在这个端坐的姿势吗？”全场没有一个人举手。在长达数十秒的寂静沉思后，终于有人承认：“其实我这样坐着一点都不舒服。” 人类的大脑极其擅长欺骗自己：大脑会在瞬间完成一套复杂的理性化说辞——“为了听演讲，我必须忍受不舒服的硬椅子，因为听讲带来的收益大于身体的不适，所以四舍五入就算‘舒服’吧。”人们在几秒钟前还在光天化日之下赌咒发誓自己“很舒服”，但身体早就知道那是谎言。玛莎指出，现代人正是在这种自我麻痹中陷入深渊： - **职场与关系的慢性中毒**：人们身处痛苦的工作、压抑窒息的关系、严苛扭曲的宗教之中，大脑不断说服自己“我还行、这很正常”，但身体却在真实受苦，最终演变成器质性疾病或严重的药物与物质成瘾，试图借此麻醉那些拒不承认的不适感。 - **与痛苦结为盟友**：玛莎强调，痛苦并非敌人，而是一位极其仁慈、诚实的朋友。当痛苦来临时，整个神经系统正在向你传递最精准的情报，告诉你什么是错的、什么行不通。 - **一度转向（One-degree turns）**：改变人生并不需要天翻地覆的骤变，而是倾听身体细微的信号，每次只做出一点点让自己更舒适的“一度微调”。不断修正方向，生命就会自然脱离谎言的消耗，回到真实的轨道上。 ### [01:21:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=4899s) “一度转向”法与重新倾听身体的感知 玛莎·贝克博士（Dr. Martha Beck）警示大家不要像她过去那样采用“冲下悬崖”式的生活剧变，而是推崇“一度转向”（one degree turns）的微调法则。她用航海与飞行做类比：如果一架飞机在飞行一万英里的过程中，每半小时仅仅向北微调一度，机上的乘客几乎察觉不到转弯，但最终抵达的将是一个截然不同的目的地。这在日常生活中意味着随时去觉察当下的身心状态：“这让我感觉不太舒服，我宁愿做另一件事。”例如，面对焦虑的伴侣，你不需要拼命费解对方的心思或买礼物讨好，而是可以走到另一个房间坐下来、善待自己、写下感受，选择对自己而言相对更舒服的状态。 史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）指出，现代人似乎受过某种系统性训练，习惯了不去倾听自己内心的感受。贝克博士对此百分之百赞同，并引用了肯·罗宾逊爵士（Sir Ken Robinson）的名言：现代教育训练我们把身体仅仅当作“把脑袋运送到会议室的工具”，仿佛会议与头脑是万物的中心，而数百万年的人类身体进化被视作毫无意义。贝克解释道，这是一种极端的“左脑主导”思维模式，精神病学家伊恩·麦吉尔克里斯特（Iain McGilchrist）曾提出，现代人的生活方式就像那些右脑中风的病人一样，完全切断了与自身肉体感知的连接。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代人身心解离与一度转向微调法 accDescr: 对比左脑主导的身心解离状态与通过一度转向倾听身体感受的生活方式 subgraph Disconnection["现代人的身心解离 (左脑主导)"] A["头脑至上 / 会议与外界期待"] --> B["身体沦为运送大脑的工具"] B --> C["钝化对痛苦与压力的躯体感知"] end subgraph Reconnection["一度转向法 (One Degree Turns)"] D["敏锐觉察当下的身体紧绷与不适"] --> E["做出细微而温和的路径调整 (+1°)"] E --> F["长期累积带来生活状态的根本性转变"] end ``` ### [01:23:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5000s) 进化的身体信号与“果断放弃”的智慧 巴特利特分享了自己过去一年在巡回演讲中反复阐述的一个观点：人们总向他询问人生的意义、目的，或者纠结于是否该辞去工作、结束一段关系。他的回答始终是：每个人生来体内都有一套指引系统，那就是你的真实感受。然而，由于父母对升学就业的意见、社交平台 Instagram 的渲染，人们慢慢学会了无视它。从进化论角度来看，如果身体没有发出逃跑、恐惧、远离危险人物的信号，人类根本不可能生存至今；这些本能信号从未消失，只是被现代人刻意调低了音量。 巴特利特坦言，自己年轻轻轻能走到今天，并非因为每次都做出了多么精明的决断，而是因为他天然具备一种“果断放弃”（the skill of quitting）的能力： - 不喜欢学校，便直接逃学辍学。 - 不喜欢大学，听完第一节讲座后立刻退学。 - 创办的第一家公司做了两年，觉得不对劲便毫无预警地放弃。 - 创立的第二家企业经营了六七年，同样在感觉不对时果决退出。 他强调自己在放弃时从不需要先找好下家或备选方案，只要身体明确感受到“这不对劲”，就会停止。贝克对此深表赞许，指出这种做法类似高风险高回报的“悬崖跳跃”，而她给来访者的最核心建议极为朴素：“如果你并不是发自内心想做某事，而且你也不是真正非做不可，那就别做（If you don't really want to do something and you don't really have to do something, don't do it）。” ### [01:25:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5140s) “非做不可”的真正含义与自由的味道 面对巴特利特的追问——如果有些事内心不想做，但环境又让人觉得“必须做”（比如讨厌的职场会议、不想参加的社交饭局或婴儿派对），该如何抉择？贝克指出，这需要人们更加敏锐地向内审视，通过冥想、表达性写作、绘画或单纯的静坐来识别细微的心理动向。 贝克区分了两种截然不同的“非做不可”： 1. **外界强加的“必须”**：例如父母期望你成为一名体面的医生，这源于迎合外界或恐惧批判。 2. **源于内在真实的“必须”**：为了活出真实的自己而必须直面的艰难挑战。 贝克援引佛陀的名言阐明何为真正的前行指引：在世间任何水域中，只要尝到咸味，你便知道那是大海；同样地，无论真正的开悟与个人真理以何种形式出现，它尝起来永远是“自由的味道”（freedom）。佛陀所说的不是短暂的快乐、利益或狂喜，而是自由。贝克以亲身经历举例：当年她被迫在心理治疗师的诊室里与施暴的父母当面对质，她当时极其恐惧，害怕面对父母以及保守社区的排斥，甚至担心治疗师会被全镇驱逐；她主观上万分不想去，但为了获得精神上的彻底解脱，她“非做不可”。 谈及自由的本质，贝克联想到自己大学时主修中文所接触到的道家思想（Daoism）。她认为道家并不是传统意义上的宗教，而是指自然界中存在着一种流动的能量；当你不再与之对抗、放手让这股能量穿透自己时，你就会进入一种“忘我”的心流状态（flow），活出原本属于你的生命轨迹，这才是真正的自由。 ### [01:29:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5389s) 跨越时空的对话与善意自我对话（KIST） 在节目插播赞助商肠道健康检测品牌 Zoe 的介绍后，巴特利特将话题转回贝克的个人蜕变，询问如今的她与 32 岁之前、乃至十几岁时那个饱受创伤的自己相比，差异究竟有多彻底。贝克回忆起近期重返波士顿剑桥镇的经历。当年只有 17 岁的她满心痛苦、数次想要自杀，而这次她是携妻子一同重游故地。站在曾经绝望的土地上，贝克强烈地感受到自己仿佛在轻轻拍着 19 岁时的自己的肩膀： > “我是从你的未来走过来的。我可以百分之百确定地告诉你：你完全有可能生活在一种近乎持续的喜悦之中，而且你不需要通过死亡才能抵达那里。事实上，你来到这个世界的使命，就是找到一种无需死亡便能持续活在喜悦中的方法。” 当巴特利特追问，如果当年的少女问“第一步该怎么做”，贝克的回答是：坐下来与自己待在一起，在内心找到一个充满慈爱的角落，对正承受巨大痛苦的自己轻声说：“我爱你，一切都会好起来的，我就在这里陪着你。” 贝克将这种方法命名为**善意内部自我对话**（Kind Internal Self-Talk，缩写为 **KIST** / kissed）。尽管这个缩写听起来有些肉麻俗气，以至于她保守这个秘密几十年未曾公开，但其核心与藏传佛教中的“慈心”（loving-kindness）修行完全一致。在长年修持中，僧侣和尼姑们会静坐数日，不做别的，专心向自己传递慈悲与善意。贝克为饱受折磨的自己献上最深沉的祝愿：“愿你平安康泰，愿你免于痛苦，愿你感到安全并被守护，愿你生活自在安详。”当人们开始向受创的自我送出这份善意时，便唤醒了内在真正永恒而真实的力量。 ### [01:32:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5533s) 苦难属于“梦幻世界”：意识创造物质 在谈及过往深重的痛苦时，玛莎·贝克（Dr. Martha Beck）提出，焦虑螺旋、绝望以及对死亡的执念，本质上都属于那个“梦幻世界”（dream world）。真实的底层现实是无限充满爱且无比智慧的，远超人类浅薄的“猴子脑”（monkey mind）。许多觉醒者都有过同样的体悟：莎士比亚写过“我们也是梦幻的材料”，而但丁在《神曲》最后一部分描写自身开悟、学会爱自己后回望人间，称地球为“那块激起我们残暴野蛮的狭小脱谷场”；在但丁笔下的天堂中，爱之源头如同一朵不断绽放、散发光芒的玫瑰，这与东方文化中多瓣莲花层层盛开的意象完全相通。 回顾过去那个极度痛苦绝望的自己，玛莎认为当时那个年轻的她把幻象当成了唯一现实，如同被困在一场逼真的电子游戏中。她坚信并非物质创造了意识，而是意识创造了物质，意识才是宇宙的第一性原理。正如笛卡尔原本所阐述的思想并非仅仅是“我思故我在”，而是“我怀疑，故我思考，故我存在”（*Dubito, ergo cogito, ergo sum*）。人类文化往往教会人们把心智紧闭成拳头——无论是禁锢在教条宗教中，还是禁锢在排他的科学唯物主义中。真正的科学应当对未知与奥秘敞开怀抱，因为人类当下的体验只是庞大、永恒且无垠意识的一个投影。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 意识与现实的认知模型 accDescr: 对比人类封闭认知下的痛苦幻象与超越性的终极意识现实 subgraph Illusion ["梦幻世界 (闭塞的表象)"] A["封闭心智 / 猴子脑"] --> B["焦虑螺旋与生存绝望"] B --> C["执着于物质至上与教条主义"] end subgraph Reality ["真实本质 (觉醒与本源)"] D["纯粹意识 (第一性原理)"] --> E["无限之爱与无尽绽放的光"] E --> F["不知心 (Don't Know Mind) / 开放与谦逊"] end C -.->|"质疑念头与觉醒体验"| D ``` --- ### [01:35:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5754s) 手术台上的濒死奇迹：超越光谱的光与狂喜 史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及玛莎在一次重大手术中经历的神秘体验，好奇那是否仅仅是麻醉剂或吗啡引发的幻觉。玛莎详细回忆了当时惊人而清晰的情景：手术进行期间，她突然感到自己坐了起来，转念一想“我正在接受手术，怎么能坐起来呢？”，低头看去，正看到医生在给自己的肉体动手术。随后她躺了回去，在刺眼的手术灯之间，浮现出一团最初仅有高尔夫球大小的光芒。 人类肉眼只能接收宇宙光谱和色彩中的万亿分之一，而玛莎在彼时看到的光芒包含了千亿种前所未见的色彩，令人彻底着迷、移不开视线。随着光团逐渐扩大并触碰她的身体，一股极其纯粹、狂喜的极乐之感席卷全身。那团光充满了喜悦与笑意，甚至让她感动得止不住流泪——那是极致的宽慰与幸福。然而，手术室的主刀医生们发现她眼角流泪，误以为麻醉药效不足导致她正在感受开刀剧痛，整个团队陷入慌乱。 术后醒来，玛莎因心中充盈的宏大爱意而痛哭数小时，甚至对身旁的医院保洁人员都脱口说出“我太爱你了”。当那位神情惶恐、生怕出了医疗事故的麻醉师被叫到床前时，玛莎询问自己被注射了什么药物、是否有此种副作用。麻醉师却反问：“刚才究竟发生了什么？”麻醉师坦白，当时他正准备加大麻药剂量，脑海中却突然响起一个清晰的声音：“不要加药，她哭是因为她很快乐。”麻醉师听从了这个直觉。玛莎将自己见到的光与喜悦简要告诉了他，那位从业33年的麻醉师震撼地表示，这是他职业生涯中唯一一次遇到这种神迹，随后亲吻了玛莎的额头便离开了。这种非同寻常的记忆历经数十年从未褪色，绝非普通的药物幻觉所能解释。 --- ### [01:39:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5955s) 绝不撒谎的誓言与“不知心”的谦逊 从那次超越体验中，玛莎不仅摆脱了自杀倾向，更建立起了对“真理”（Truth）的绝对执念。那团光以一种非语言的心灵感应告诉她：“你一直以为自杀能让你解脱，但我告诉你，你来到世间，是为了在活着的时候永远保持此时此刻与我在一起的这种状态。去活出这个状态吧。”此前，玛莎曾翻阅过所有宗教与哲学典籍寻找活下去的理由，经典中一再强调“真理必叫你们得自由”，但现实宗教中的教条却充满虚伪。那一刻她明白，唯有绝对的真理能将她带回那道光的存在之中。 从此，她下定决心不再说谎，不仅在言辞上，甚至在行为与微表情上都绝不弄虚作假。她发现，每当自己说了不真实的话，身体就会感到虚弱，意识与光的连接就会被切断。她开始严格审视每一个念头：如果一个想法让她感到远离了那道光，它就不可能是真的。与此同时，她拥抱了东方哲学中的“不知心”（don't-know mind）——承认以人类有限的脑容量，心智唯一能说的真理只有“我不知道”。这并非无知，而是将傲慢的人类智慧臣服于更伟大的存在之中，保持谦逊与完全敞开。 --- ### [01:42:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6142s) 踏入真实的代价与离开摩门教 当史蒂文指出许多人不敢迈入真实是因为害怕现实后果（比如丢掉工作、失去社会认同）时，玛莎对此表示理解，但指出那往往只是短期的表象代价。她建议在表达真实时要先问自己三个问题：“这是善良的吗？（Is it kind?）这是真实的吗？（Is it true?）这是必要的吗？（Is it necessary?）”行使真实并不等于肆无忌惮地口无遮拦。 然而，当真实关乎灵魂的底线时，即使面临孤立也必须践行。玛莎谈到了自己当年正式脱离摩门教（Mormonism）的巨大震荡。在她从小生长的社区与文化环境里，退教被视为“比谋杀还要严重的罪孽”，意味着注定坠入永恒的外在黑暗（Outer Darkness）。当她毅然迈出这一步后，走在熟悉的街头迎来的却是整个社群的唾弃与决裂，但这也是她找回生命主权所必须经历的淬炼。 ### [01:43:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6198s) 真实本性与文化的博弈：没有心理痛苦的境界 玛莎·贝克（Martha Beck）指出，当一个人选择忠于自己的内在真相时，必然会迎来遭受孤立与评判的时刻——朋友们可能会在物理上对你“背过身去”，这种代价是真实存在的。她将这种拉锯定义为“真实本性（True Nature）”与“文化（Culture）”之间的冲突。这里的“文化”涵盖甚广，上至宗教、民族、国家认同，下至家族传统乃至伴侣之间的默契。在任何体制下，只要你追随真实本性，迟早会成为某种“反文化（countercultural）”的存在，做出父母不认可或宗教所禁止的抉择。 当主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及如何辨别什么是自己的真实本性时，玛莎给出了一个极其直接的衡量指标：“没有任何心理痛苦（Psychological Suffering）”。她解释道，人所有的心理痛苦，本质上都是源于盲目相信了外界灌输的谎言，而这些谎言主要来自两股力量：一是“创伤（Trauma）”，它在大脑中根深蒂固，不断尖叫着“一切都处于极度危险之中”；二是“社会化（Socialization）”，它通过诸如“你不够好”、“你必须再努力一点”、“你得让你母亲开心”等教条来束缚自我。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 心理痛苦与真实本性的分歧模型 accDescr: 展示社会化谎言与创伤如何诱发心理痛苦，以及真实本性如何带来零痛苦的内在对齐。 subgraph RootCauses["痛苦的两大外在根源"] T["创伤 (Trauma)<br/>'外界一切永远都是危险的'"] S["社会化 (Socialization)<br/>'你不够好 / 必须取悦他人'"] end subgraph InternalState["心理状态转化"] Suffering["心理痛苦 (Psychological Suffering)<br/>对当下的抗拒与谎言内化"] TrueNature["真实本性 (True Nature)<br/>痛苦彻底止息的本真状态"] end T --> Suffering S --> Suffering Suffering -.->|"剥离谎言与创伤"| TrueNature ``` 如果一个人的真实本性恰好与外在文化合拍，内心便相安无事。玛莎举例称自己天生喜爱求学，因而能轻松融入学术体制；然而她极具天赋的大儿子却完全无法适从传统学校体制。当时年轻且缺乏觉察的玛莎强迫孩子接受传统教育，为了顺应文化而扭曲了孩子的本性，这也给孩子带来了深重且漫长的痛苦，成为她至今仍深感懊悔的一段经历。 --- ### [01:45:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6323s) 悲伤与痛苦的区别：悲痛是一场意识的疗愈过程 面对史蒂芬关于“你现在是否还会经历痛苦”的追问，玛莎坦言自己依然会感到悲伤，例如在最近一次美国大选后她感到深切的哀伤，但她的内心已经彻底告别了“恐惧”与“焦虑”。她严谨地区分了自然的“哀伤（Grieving）”与病理性的“心理痛苦（Psychological Suffering）”。谈及失去亲人时的哀痛过程，精神病学家伊丽莎白·库伯勒-罗丝（Elisabeth Kübler-Ross）曾将其归纳为否认、愤怒、讨价还价、抑郁与接受等阶段，但玛莎形容，实际的体验更像是“置身于一台高速运转的水泥搅拌机中”，各种情绪瞬间杂糅并发。 然而，玛莎并不把这种自然的哀痛归为心理痛苦。她引用一位秘鲁萨满（Peruvian Shaman）曾告诉她的话：“慈悲是意识在疗愈创伤中的演进，而疗愈创伤的本质就是哀痛的过程（Compassion is the evolution of consciousness in the healing of trauma, and the healing of trauma is the grieving process）。” 面对一个正在经历哀痛的人，她会静静陪伴，端上热饮，为对方披上毯子，一同落泪、感受与关爱。这种与生命本真联结的情感宣泄，同那种充满抗拒、内心嘶吼着“我根本不想呆在这里、这太糟糕了”的心理痛苦，有着本质的区别。 - **自然的悲痛**：意识对创伤的自然疗愈，无需抗拒，允许情绪如实流淌。 - **心理的痛苦**：源于对事实的抗拒以及内化谎言后产生的自我折磨与逃避。 --- ### [01:46:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6409s) 直面性取向与婚姻真相：哈佛时期的直觉闪现与脱离摩门教 当玛莎开始践行对真实的承诺时，她不得不审视自己的第一段婚姻。她二十岁便与前夫成婚，两人的渊源深厚得不可思议：出生于同一个小镇、由同一位产科医生接生，随后又双双考入哈佛大学。在摩门教严苛的传统环境中，他们是最要好的知己，彼此深爱对方。然而，丈夫其实是同性恋，并且在极其痛苦地试图压抑自己的性取向以维持“好男孩”的教徒形象；而当时的玛莎因童年遭受性侵，身心处于严重的解离（Dissociation）状态，对自己的性取向毫无察觉，仅仅因为丈夫能带给她无可替代的安全感而依恋对方。 转折发生在她怀上儿子并在哈佛攻读博士学位期间。玛莎突然经历了一系列无法用传统科学解释的通灵直觉（Psychic Flashes）。作为哈佛培养的学者，她面临严峻的思想抉择：要么无视并丢弃这些真实的经验证据，要么彻底打破现有的认知框架。她发现自己竟能清晰感应到远方所爱之人的状态，且每一次都被事实证实。当丈夫经常出差在外时，玛莎在直觉中无比清晰地洞察到：丈夫是个同性恋，回归同性身份才是属于他的快乐源泉。 当两人最终共同决定脱离摩门教会后，压抑多年的真相终于破土而出。玛莎开诚布公地对丈夫说：“你看，我是同性恋，你也是同性恋，我们为什么不干脆坦诚做自己呢？” 这场坦白彻底解放了彼此：前夫开始探索同性约会，而玛莎也爱上了一位女性，迎来了自我生命的重塑。 --- ### [01:49:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6558s) 三人同行的亲密关系：“显得古怪，却活得通透” 追随真实本性往往意味着过上一种打破常规的“反文化”生活。玛莎与伴侣凯伦（Karen）相伴二十余年后，遇到了一位前来美国工作并在邻近农场暂住的澳大利亚女作家罗温（Rowan）。三人聚在一起时产生了无法抗拒的精神联结。在好几个星期的时间里，她们挤在同一张沙发上促膝长谈数小时，起初还试图欺骗自己“这只是正常的密友互动”，直到彼此确认：三个人同时爱上了彼此。 当凯伦最初向玛莎坦白，表示自己对罗温产生了极其强烈、犹如“爱的消防水管喷涌而出（fire hose of love）”般的情感时，玛莎立刻审视自己的内心，寻找是否存在嫉妒、愤怒或恐惧。然而她发现内心深处不仅毫无波澜，反而爆发出一股“纯粹的喜悦（explosion of pure joy）”。她微笑着对凯伦说：“你爱上她了，这太棒了！让她搬过来，我搬去客房，你们住主卧，这样这个家里就会有更多的爱。” 这种彻底摒弃占有欲与社会规训的选择，成了她远离昔日自杀念头的解药。罗温将这种生活状态精辟地总结为：“以显得古怪为代价，换取真正的舒坦（Feeling good by looking weird）。” ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 三元亲密关系结构与动态平衡 accDescr: 展现玛莎、凯伦与罗温之间的三元互动，以及相比于二元关系的动态平衡。 subgraph TriadRelationship["三元平衡系统 (The Triad)"] Martha["玛莎 (Martha)"] --- Karen["凯伦 (Karen)"] Karen --- Rowan["罗温 (Rowan)"] Rowan --- Martha end TriadRelationship --> Dynamic["三脚平衡机制<br/>- 沟通极为频繁<br/>- 发生分歧时具备天然调解视角<br/>- 打破二元对立的僵局"] ``` 史蒂芬坦率地承认，这种生活方式令他非常钦佩，因为要承受外界铺天盖地的评判需要巨大的勇气。如果换作是他自己，身为公众人物，一想到媒体可能大肆炒作“史蒂芬同时与几个人约会”，他很可能会因为恐惧后果而亲手掐灭内在的情感冲动。玛莎幽默地指出，八九年的三人生活不仅没有瓦解，反而自然得宛如呼吸。在她眼中，传统的二人伴侣关系倒像是一把“两脚凳”：缺乏第三维度的支撑，一旦两人吵架，甚至找不到中立的裁判来调解；而三人关系虽然要求极致坦诚的沟通，却拥有如同三脚架般坚固的内在平衡。 ### [01:53:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6836s) 真实的和谐与人生的真正意义：发生在人与人之间 Martha 谈到在毫无虚饰、完全坦诚的群体中，人与人之间会产生一种奇妙的和谐共鸣——当每个人都失去撒谎的能力与习惯时，真实便构成了最坚固的纽带。Steven 借此引申出一个核心话题：无论是向 Martha 求助的亿万富翁，还是在社交媒体私信中向 Steven 倾诉的年轻人，大家最普遍的困惑莫过于“我找不到人生的意义与使命”。面对年轻人反复提问“我找不到激情与目标，我该怎么办”，社会究竟灌输了哪些误导性的谎言？ Martha 回忆起多年前怀上儿子 Adam 时的经历。当她得知儿子患有唐氏综合征且存在智力迟缓时，内心曾备受煎熬与拷问：“他生命的意义到底是什么？他的目标在哪里？”然而，出于对儿子纯粹深切的爱，她突然获得了深刻的顿悟：**生命的意义从来不是降临在某个人身上的单向事件，人生的真正目的，存在于人与人之间的相遇与互动之中（"what happens between people"）**。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 人生意义的转变模型 accDescr: 对比传统个体主义的意义观与基于Ubuntu哲学的连接主义意义观 subgraph Trap["狭隘的个体主义陷阱"] A["向内孤立索求<br/>'我该得到什么成就？'"] --> B["陷入左脑焦虑与迷茫"] end subgraph Truth["人际连接的真实意义"] C["看见彼此之间的空间<br/>Ubuntu: 我因我们而在"] --> D["人与人之间的连结<br/>深度喜悦与世界饥渴交汇"] end ``` ### [01:55:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6920s) 乌班图哲学（Ubuntu）与看向“彼此之间的空间” Martha 提到了非洲广泛流传的“乌班图”（Ubuntu）哲学。Steven 提到自己今年刚在南非买房，但还没深入体验当地文化。Martha 解释道，Ubuntu 在英语乃至现代西方语境中根本找不到对应翻译，它与西方文化中极度推崇的“个人主义”背道而驰。Ubuntu 的核心精髓是“**我是因为我们而在**”（*I am me because we are us*）——“正因为我认识了你，且你对我至关重要，我才成为了根本不同的我”。 - **南非艾滋孤儿的见证**：Martha 曾在南非感到疑惑，为何当地有如此多的艾滋孤儿，街头却几乎看不到流浪儿童。后来她明白，这正是 Ubuntu 鲜活的现实实践：即便当地许多人一无所有，社区也会无私地将失去父母的孩子拥入怀中照看。 - **古老格言的警示**：正如一句流传的谚语所言，“独行快，众行远”（If you want to go fast, go alone; if you want to go far, go together）。现代商业社会跑得极快，却是在飞速奔向自我毁灭。 为了帮助体验右脑主导的 Ubuntu 状态，Martha 现场引导 Steven 做了一个视觉实验： - 两个人互相对视，但不要紧盯对方的眼球或五官，而是将焦点投向**两人身体之间那片虚空的、开放的距离空间**。 - Steven 照做后立刻感受到了身体的剧烈变化，轻声惊呼：“我的心率好像一下子降下来了，整个人变得极度平静。” - Martha 引用心理学家荣格（Carl Jung）与普韦布洛印第安人酋长 Mountain Lake 的对话：酋长曾说“我们觉得白人是疯子，因为你们总是死死盯着具体物体，却从看不见彼此之间的空间；你们的眼神是生硬冰冷的，而我们的眼神是柔和的（soft eyes）”。Martha 表示，当目光柔和地容纳两人之间的整体场域时，她能清晰感受到内在光芒的显现，身体完全进入了祥和的慈悲状态。 ### [01:58:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7092s) 社群“Wilder”与如何回应迷茫青年的求助 Martha 透露，她目前正致力于建立实践 Ubuntu 精神的社群，其中包括线上社群“Wilder”（更加原生野性）。因为当人类、甚至家里的猫狗以这种未被文明异化的本能注视心爱之物时，它们的眼神总是柔和且包容着整个空间的；唯有在捕猎苍蝇或猎物时，眼神才会变得锐利聚焦（那是左脑的捕猎本能）。 当 Steven 再次询问，如果有年轻人发私信痛苦地说“我找不到生活的目标”，他到底该怎么回复时，Martha 给出了极具温情与实操性的三步建议： 1. **拥抱痛苦并给予自我慈悲**：首先坐下来，去深情关爱那个因找不到人生意义而承受巨大压力的自己。“找不到目标”是一种极其痛苦的煎熬，但真相是——你其实在潜意识深处知道自己的使命，它只是被外界规训与文化灌输的杂音彻底淹没了。 2. **在真实的连接中倾诉绝望**：去寻找一个值得信赖的朋友或社群，正如诗人玛丽·奥利弗（Mary Oliver）在《野鹅》中所写的：“告诉我你的绝望，我也会告诉你我的绝望。”当绝望能够被安全地表达、被对方真诚地听见，人与人之间的连接自会填补认知上的缺口。 3. **定位喜悦与饥渴的交汇点**：神学家弗雷德里克·布希纳（Frederick Buechner）曾有一句名言：“**你的使命，正是你深层的喜悦（deep gladness）与这个世界深层的饥渴（deep hunger）相遇的地方。**” Martha 直言，当年轻人向 Steven 发问，而 Steven 发自内心地思考如何真诚地帮助他们时，Steven 本人就已经处在 Ubuntu 的连接之中了——Steven 渴望抚平陌生人内心创伤的这股冲动，正是他的“深层喜悦”，恰好对接了年轻人面对浮躁文化时的“极度饥渴”。 ### [02:01:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7278s) 灵魂深处的深层喜悦与神圣安歇 Steven 提出疑问，许多人会把“深层的喜悦”简单理解为吃喝玩乐或让自己爽快的事情。Martha 纠正道，“深层喜悦”是一种源自脏腑（visceral）的深切震颤。体验这种状态最纯净的方式，是回想与毫无言语能力的心爱生命相伴的时刻： - 比如猫咪趴在胸口发出咕噜咕噜的声音，或者狗狗把脑袋轻轻搁在你的膝盖上；对于 Martha 来说，那就是陪伴无法开口说话的儿子 Adam。 - 在那个当下，没有任何“必须去达成什么”的世俗压力，两个人或两个生命仅仅是“共同存在着”，沉浸在意识营造出的纯粹时空中。 - Martha 引用《诗篇》第 46 篇中的“你们要休息，要知道我是神”（*Be still and know that I am God*），并指出这句话中“存在”（Be）、“静止”（Stillness）、“了知”（Know）、“我是”（I am）以及“神”（God），在本质上全都是神圣存在的不同代名词。 - 当两个误以为彼此分离的独立个体最终在爱中紧握双手、重新相聚时，那种超越一切言语的解脱、狂喜与光明，正是生命无可替代的深层喜悦。 ### [02:03:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7411s) 互联网对人类连接的双刃剑：左脑暴走与觉醒临界点 当 Steven 问及互联网如何破坏了这一切时，Martha 剖析道，现代互联网是一把极度扭曲的双刃剑。它最阴暗之处在于无底线迎合了人类左脑的负面偏好（“流血的才是头条”，*what bleeds leads*）： | 互联网维度的左脑异化 | 产生机制与现实表象 | |:--- |:--- | | **注意力变现与恐惧贩卖** | 商业资本为了争夺最大份额的注意力，比起推送温馨的“小狗”，更倾向于推送引发警觉的“眼镜蛇”，靠制造恐惧与愤怒来维系粘性。 | | **极端极化与部落割裂** | 算法将人群推向极度偏狭的信息茧房（Echo Chambers），导致各方坚信自己的立场绝对正确，毫无退让与包容的余地，如同左脑的排他武器彻底失控。 | 然而 Martha 指出，硬币的另一面是互联网也孕育着全球觉醒的契机。意识的觉醒就像果实成熟，经历漫长的累积后，瞬间脱落——这正如大脑内部的表观遗传开关被骤然触发，点亮整个大脑网络。Martha 引入自然界中的**分形（fractals）**概念：细枝如同大枝，大枝如同树干，自然结构在不同尺度上自相似地复制。正如人类的大脑皮层（neocortex）只是包裹在脑表面极其纤薄的一层细胞，人类个体在地球表面所构成的互联网连接，也如同一层覆盖行星表面的神经元网络，在经历混乱与撕裂的同时，正酝酿着全维度的群体意识觉醒。 ### [02:05:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7519s) 觉醒意识的涟漪：从佛陀到互联网络时代 人类就像在一颗巨大的球体表面四处奔跑并产生高度互动的生命，彼此不断传递和教学观念。在这个网络中，哪怕只有一个个体觉醒，都会产生不可估量的共振效应。就像当年的佛陀或耶稣，佛陀最初其实从未想过去拯救别人，他只是致力于解救自己，然而其他人的意识却捕捉到了那种心智构型，并在共鸣中被逐一“点亮”。在过去，要让一种思想传遍世界往往需要举国体制的全力推动；而在今天的互联网时代，传播的壁垒已被彻底瓦解。 如今，哪怕是马拉维（Malawi）一个贫困的孩子突然觉醒，也能将顿悟凝结成一条讯息发送给全世界；正如当年年仅十五岁的巴基斯坦少女马拉拉·优素福扎伊（Malala Yousafzai）所遭遇的苦难与抗争，即便塔利班极力封锁压制，真相依然瞬间传遍了全球。在当下的时代，一个真正觉醒的生命，几乎无需任何经济成本，就拥有触及并照亮全人类心灵的潜能。 ### [02:06:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7596s) 算法中的水獭与约翰内斯堡机场的“乌班图”（Ubuntu）温情 谈及自己与互联网的互动方式时，玛莎·贝克（Dr. Martha Beck）风趣地坦白，她亲手调教出了一个完全脱离世俗现实的算法——她的网络世界里充斥着憨态可掬的水獭，“我太喜欢水獭了”，以及人与人之间流淌的纯粹爱意与喜悦。她深知主流新闻头条总是充斥着灾难与冲突，但她更坚信人性的底色。这正如她早年踏上非洲大陆的体验：外界的刻板叙事将那里描绘为“黑暗大陆”（Heart of Darkness），充斥着埃博拉病毒、内战与刚果的动荡；然而当她真正走入这片土地，她亲眼见证的是，在每一个真实存在的惨剧背后，往往并存着上千件完全无私的爱意之举。 她深情回忆起一次在南非的亲身经历。当时她较年轻的妻子带着几年前出生的年幼女儿同行，小女孩在约翰内斯堡机场突发重病，剧烈且止不住地呕吐。她们推着婴儿车在航站楼里仓皇奔走，不得不买来一件又一件印着游客图案的纪念 T 恤，孩子吐脏一件就扔掉一件。这时，不可思议的一幕发生了：来自不同部族、说着南非十一种官方语言的陌生人们，没有一个人避开这个满身呕吐物的孩子，而是从各个店铺争先恐后地冲出来施以援手。有人当场点火为金属勺子消毒，有人一路狂奔穿过整个航站楼唯一的药房买回急需的药物，还有人毫不嫌弃地用双手接住浸透呕吐物的衣物。在这片曾因殖民创伤与外界偏见而被视为“危险黑暗”的土地上，玛莎感受到了非洲传统的“乌班图”（Ubuntu，意为‘因为有大家，才有我’）精神。人类心中能够去爱的那部分力量，其坚韧与强大远远超越了冷漠与恐惧。 ### [02:09:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7752s) 《超越焦虑》的核心真理：在本质上，你永远安全 面对史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）关于新书《超越焦虑：好奇心、创造力与寻找人生使命》（Beyond Anxiety: Curiosity, Creativity and Finding Your Life's Purpose）最核心要义的提问，玛莎沉思后将千言万语汇聚为一份对读者的郑重许诺。她引用了美国诗人玛丽·奥利弗（Mary Oliver）在经典诗作《野鹅》（*Wild Geese*）中的名句：“不论你是谁，不论你有多么孤独，世界都在向你的想象力敞开怀抱，呼唤你融入万物的大家庭。” 玛莎直视镜头，用最真挚的情感向每一位正在聆听的听众强调：无论你此刻身处何方、经历着怎样的困顿与绝望，也无论周遭表象看起来有多么艰难破碎，“在你生命的本质深处，你是绝对安全的；在根本意义上，你一定会安然无恙。我向你保证。” ### [02:10:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7835s) 上位嘉宾的提问：平庸故事与伟大故事的分野在于“炼金术” 在播客标志性的“上一位嘉宾留给下一位嘉宾的问题”环节中，面对卡片上“你认为平庸的故事与伟大的故事之间有什么本质区别？”这一难题，玛莎给出了举重若轻的洞见：“在一个好故事里，坏事降临在好人身上；而在一个伟大的故事里，坏事降临在英雄身上。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 从受害者到创造者的故事转变机制 accDescr: 展示顺境中的好人遭遇苦难后，通过自我慈悲转向创造性炼金术，最终成长为英雄的心智演进过程。 subgraph Trauma["苦难降临"] A["好人遭遇逆境与创伤"] --> B["陷入恐惧与痛苦 / 受害者心态"] end subgraph Transformation["心智转变：自我慈悲"] B --> C["停止苛求，对自己极致温柔"] C --> D["思维转向：从'我该怎么办'变为'我能用它创造什么'"] end subgraph Alchemy["英雄的炼金术"] D --> E["激发右脑创造力 / 开启冒险之旅"] E --> F["将铅块般的沉重熔炼为黄金：醒出噩梦，成为英雄"] end ``` 在任何叙事中冲突与痛苦都不可避免，但平庸的故事止步于叹息苦难的不公，而传世的伟大故事里，注定沦为受害者的人拒绝停留在恐惧中，而是选择站起身来跨入未知的冒险。玛莎提到，哈佛大学的教授曾教导学生莎士比亚人生的顶峰是他写出的四大悲剧，而晚年创作的带有魔幻色彩、宽恕与大团圆结局的传奇剧（如《暴风雨》）则是因年过五十而“老糊涂”的产物；但在玛莎眼中，恰恰是这些晚期作品展示了至高无上的艺术高度——将一场宿命般的惨剧熔炼成一段以善意收尾的奇幻冒险。英雄与凡人的区别，就在于他们是否将苦难当作沉重的铅块终身背负，抑或施展心智的“炼金术”将铅块点化成黄金。 - **苦难与转化的选择**：这种英雄的抉择并非不切实际的高调要求。如果你是一个疲惫的工薪母亲、深陷赤贫的个体，或是刚拿到绝症诊断书的患者，绝不可能凭空跳起来扮演英雄。 - **自我慈悲（Self-Compassion）的起点**：第一步永远是“对自己友善、友善、再友善”。唯有在极致的温柔宽待中沉淀，大脑才会从防御性的“我该怎么应付这个烂摊子？”转变为极具生命力的创造性提问：“我能利用眼前的材料创造出什么？” - **醒出噩梦**：一旦开始主动将境遇雕琢为作品，人就从梦魇的受害者变成了创世的一分子，这便是世间一切宏大故事最完美的落幕。 ### [02:13:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=8038s) 重新定义焦虑：对创伤与英雄之旅的诚实回应 史蒂芬由衷地赞叹玛莎的人生本身就是这样一部将苦难熔炼成金的伟大英雄史诗。他坦言，在这次对话之前，自己与大多数现代人一样，以为焦虑是一个必须去攻击、克服或是依靠药物来强行压制的对象；然而玛莎以扎实的神经科学逻辑与极具温度的人生阅历，颠覆了世俗的偏见，向人们证明焦虑是内在生命力试图寻求创造性突破的信号。 史蒂芬极力向所有正在困顿与创伤中挣扎的人推荐玛莎的新书《超越焦虑》，认为书中兼具科学洞见与互动实践练习，是指引受困者踏上个人英雄之旅的明灯。两人在彼此致谢与温情的道别中结束了这场跨越创伤、直抵本真的深度长谈。节目尾声，史蒂芬向观众介绍了将节目历任嘉宾手写问题实体化的第二代《CEO日记》对话卡牌（Conversation Cards v2），卡牌背面附带扫码观看原嘉宾作答瞬间的二维码，为探索人与人之间深度联结提供了现实工具。 ## Notable quotes > [02:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=121s) 我对我的灵魂说，静止吧，在没有爱中等待，因为那爱会是对错误之物的爱；在没有希望中等待，因为那希望会是对错误之物的希望。然而信念犹存，但爱、希望与信念全都在等待之中。在没有思想中等待，因为你尚未准备好去思想；如此，黑暗将化为光明，静止将化为起舞。 — 玛莎·贝克（引用 T.S. 艾略特） > [10:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=609s) 当海洛因成瘾者说，他们无法离开第一次注射毒品时的那种快感而活时，我完全感同身受——因为从那次手术的光芒中苏醒后，我也觉得没有那份极致的回归与平静，我根本无法生存下去。我对街头的吸毒者说，我坚信你们理应获得你们如此渴望的极致感受，但不同的是，通过另一种方式，你们还可以保住自己的牙齿和生命。 — 玛莎·贝克 > [23:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=1423s) 如果你遭遇了严重车祸、伤势极其惨重，你希望走进手术室为你开刀的外科医生正处于惊慌失措的状态，还是处于沉着平静且具备高度应变创造力的状态？ — 玛莎·贝克 > [01:23:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5000s) 如果你并不是发自内心想做某事，而且你也不是真正非做不可，那就别做。 — 玛莎·贝克 > [01:29:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=5389s) 我是从你的未来走过来的。我可以百分之百确定地告诉你：你完全有可能生活在一种近乎持续的喜悦之中，而且你不需要通过死亡才能抵达那里。事实上，你来到这个世界的使命，就是找到一种无需死亡便能持续活在喜悦中的方法。 — 玛莎·贝克 > [01:45:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6323s) 慈悲是意识在疗愈创伤中的演进，而疗愈创伤的本质就是哀痛的过程。 — 玛莎·贝克（引用秘鲁萨满） > [01:49:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=6558s) 以显得古怪为代价，换取真正的舒坦。 — 罗温（玛莎·贝克引用） > [01:58:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7092s) 你的使命，正是你深层的喜悦与这个世界深层的饥渴相遇的地方。 — 玛莎·贝克（引用弗雷德里克·布希纳） > [02:09:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7752s) 不论你是谁，不论你有多么孤独，世界都在向你的想象力敞开怀抱，呼唤你融入万物的大家庭。 — 玛莎·贝克（引用玛丽·奥利弗） > [02:09:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7752s) 在你生命的本质深处，你是绝对安全的；在根本意义上，你一定会安然无恙。我向你保证。 — 玛莎·贝克 > [02:10:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE&t=7835s) 在一个好故事里，坏事降临在好人身上；而在一个伟大的故事里，坏事降临在英雄身上。 — 玛莎·贝克 ## Mentioned Dr. Martha Beck（玛莎·贝克）, Steven Bartlett（史蒂芬·巴特利特）, Oprah Winfrey（奥普拉·温弗瑞）, T.S. Eliot（T.S. 艾略特）, 《四个四重奏》（Four Quartets）, Nelson Mandela（纳尔逊·曼德拉）, 《超越焦虑》（Beyond Anxiety）, 《完整性的道路》（The Way of Integrity）, Jeff Bezos（杰夫·贝佐斯）, Amazon（亚马逊）, Iain McGilchrist（伊恩·麦吉尔克里斯特）, Chris Voss（克里斯·沃斯）, William Reimann（威廉·赖曼）, NASA, James Pennebaker（詹姆斯·潘尼贝克）, Mihaly Csikszentmihalyi（米哈里·契克森米哈赖）, William Shakespeare（莎士比亚）, 《哈姆雷特》（Hamlet）, 《黑客帝国》（The Matrix）, Michael Trotta（迈克尔·特罗达）, Mormonism（摩门教）, Sir Ken Robinson（肯·罗宾逊爵士）, Zoe, Dante（但丁）, 《神曲》（Divine Comedy）, René Descartes（勒内·笛卡尔）, Elisabeth Kübler-Ross（伊丽莎白·库伯勒-罗丝）, Carl Jung（卡尔·荣格）, Mary Oliver（玛丽·奥利弗）, 《野鹅》（Wild Geese）, Frederick Buechner（弗雷德里克·布希纳）, Malala Yousafzai（马拉拉·优素福扎伊）, The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards ## Video description Dr. Martha Beck, Ph.D., a Harvard-educated sociologist, known as Oprah's life coach, bestselling author, and leading authority on personal growth, resolving childhood trauma and fixing anxiety. Dr. Beck provides practical tools and strategies to uncover your deepest desires, core truths, and the path to living your most authentic life. She believes that it's only through our authentic life that we can find all the things we're all searching for! 00:00 Intro 02:01 What Are You Aiming to Do With All Your Work? 04:57 What Is the Shift You're Predicting? 07:43 Who Are You in Terms of Your Qualifications? 10:09 Who Have You Worked With? 14:48 Why Did You Decide to Write a Book About Anxiety? 21:09 What Do We Need to Know About the Brain to Understand This All? 26:47 How Would I Switch Away From My Anxiety State Into My Creative State? 40:17 A Three-Step Process to Alleviate Anxiety on a Daily Basis 42:27 We Have to Be Gentle With Ourselves 47:08 The Anxiety Spiral 53:36 What's Your View on the Suffering Between Men and Women? 57:54 Why Are Young Men Killing Themselves at Alarming Rates? 1:02:14 Your Experiences Growing Up 1:04:20 Facing Abuse as a Child 1:09:19 My Mum Knew He Was Abusing Me 1:15:01 Did Anything Happen to Them? 1:15:52 Forgiveness 1:16:09 Always Wanted to End My Life 1:17:46 Lying Makes You Weak 1:23:20 How Do We Find Our Meaning and Purpose? 1:25:40 What If You Don't Want to Do Something but Feel Like You Have To? 1:27:49 What Is Freedom? 1:29:49 How Different Is the Martha at 32 to Now? 1:35:54 This Light You Saw in Surgery 1:39:15 Why Did Truth Emerge From That? 1:43:54 How Do You Know What Your True Nature Is? 1:45:30 The Grieving Process 1:46:49 Being True About Your Sexuality 1:54:21 What Are the Lies We're Sold About Meaning and Purpose? 1:58:52 Advice for Someone Who Can't Find Their Purpose in Life 2:03:30 How Has the Internet Messed This All Up? 2:10:33 The Last Guest's Question Disclaimer: Advice regarding mental health concerns should always be sought from certified and qualified professionals. Follow Dr Martha: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/5Le3Vr1uqPb Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/JCbAdi3uqPb Website - https://g2ul0.app.link/unTVO56uqPb Studies & sources mentioned marthabeck.tiiny.co You can pre-order Dr Martha’s book, ‘Beyond Anxiety: Curiosity, Creativity and Finding Your Life’s Purpose by Martha Beck’, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/KVHfpHdvqPb Get your hands on the brand new Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards here: https://appurl.io/iUUJeYn25v ZOE - http://joinzoe.com with code STEVEN10 for 10% off [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fajtQSCHfvE)

[2:01] 玛莎·贝克（引用 T.S. 艾略特）: 我对我的灵魂说，静止吧，在没有爱中等待，因为那爱会是对错误之物的爱；在没有希望中等待，因为那希望会是对错误之物的希望。然而信念犹存，但爱、希望与信念全都在等待之中。在没有思想中等待，因为你尚未准备好去思想；如此，黑暗将化为光明，静止将化为起舞。 [10:09] 玛莎·贝克: 当海洛因成瘾者说，他们无法离开第一次注射毒品时的那种快感而活时，我完全感同身受——因为从那次手术的光芒中苏醒后，我也觉得没有那份极致的回归与平静，我根本无法生存下去。我对街头的吸毒者说，我坚信你们理应获得你们如此渴望的极致感受，但不同的是，通过另一种方式，你们还可以保住自己的牙齿和生命。 [23:43] 玛莎·贝克: 如果你遭遇了严重车祸、伤势极其惨重，你希望走进手术室为你开刀的外科医生正处于惊慌失措的状态，还是处于沉着平静且具备高度应变创造力的状态？ [83:20] 玛莎·贝克: 如果你并不是发自内心想做某事，而且你也不是真正非做不可，那就别做。 [89:49] 玛莎·贝克: 我是从你的未来走过来的。我可以百分之百确定地告诉你：你完全有可能生活在一种近乎持续的喜悦之中，而且你不需要通过死亡才能抵达那里。事实上，你来到这个世界的使命，就是找到一种无需死亡便能持续活在喜悦中的方法。 [105:23] 玛莎·贝克（引用秘鲁萨满）: 慈悲是意识在疗愈创伤中的演进，而疗愈创伤的本质就是哀痛的过程。 [109:18] 罗温（玛莎·贝克引用）: 以显得古怪为代价，换取真正的舒坦。 [118:12] 玛莎·贝克（引用弗雷德里克·布希纳）: 你的使命，正是你深层的喜悦与这个世界深层的饥渴相遇的地方。 [129:12] 玛莎·贝克（引用玛丽·奥利弗）: 不论你是谁，不论你有多么孤独，世界都在向你的想象力敞开怀抱，呼唤你融入万物的大家庭。 [129:12] 玛莎·贝克: 在你生命的本质深处，你是绝对安全的；在根本意义上，你一定会安然无恙。我向你保证。 [130:35] 玛莎·贝克: 在一个好故事里，坏事降临在好人身上；而在一个伟大的故事里，坏事降临在英雄身上。

[2:01] Dr. Martha Beck: I said to my soul, be still, and wait without hope / For hope would be hope for the wrong thing; wait without love, / For love would be love of the wrong thing; there is yet faith / But the love and the hope and the faith are all in the waiting. / Wait without thought, for you are not ready for thought: / So the darkness shall be the light, and the stillness the dancing. [47:08] Dr. Martha Beck: Anxiety and creativity just can't work at the same time... the moment you begin to create, the toggle switches off in anxiety and on in creativity. [64:20] Dr. Martha Beck: It means you have a God who's fundamentally interested in helping people be like God by lying. [76:09] Dr. Martha Beck: When we lie, our bodies get very weak. [89:49] Dr. Martha Beck: I am from your future and I can tell you with 100% certainty that it is possible for you to live in a state of almost continuous joy and that you can get there without dying. [129:12] Mary Oliver: Whoever you are, no matter how lonely, the world offers itself to your imagination [129:12] Dr. Martha Beck: Whoever hears this, you specifically—in your essence, you are safe. No matter what it looks like, you are fundamentally going to be okay. I promise. [130:33] Steven Bartlett: What do you think separates a great story from just a good story? [130:33] Dr. Martha Beck: In a good story, bad things happen to good people. In a great story, bad things happen to heroes. [133:32] Dr. Martha Beck: What am I going to do about this? [133:32] Dr. Martha Beck: What can I make from this?

[0:00] [Music] [0:00] when we lie our bodies get very weak for [0:02] example stick your arm out and say I [0:04] love fresh air I love fresh [0:07] air now I want you to do that while [0:09] lying and the LIE I'd like you to say is [0:12] I love to vomit say it I love to vomit [0:15] that's so weird you now say I love fresh [0:17] air I love fresh air you now say I love [0:19] to vomit I love to vomit why is that [0:22] it's because the way the brain is [0:23] structured and there are many tricks do [0:25] you want to do some more sure Martha [0:27] Beck PhD is a Harvard trained [0:28] sociologist and world renowned life [0:30] coach whose notable clients include [0:32] Oprah Winfrey her neurological based [0:33] techniques have helped individuals cope [0:35] and adapt to an anxiety addicted world [0:38] so our brains were biologically [0:39] pre-programmed to be anxious taught by [0:42] innocently believing Lies by [0:44] socialization or trauma socialization [0:46] says you're not good enough you should [0:47] try harder that was a bad choice all [0:49] kinds of things and Trauma tells you oh [0:51] my God everything's dangerous all the [0:52] time and then it creats horror stories [0:54] that haven't happened yet to make you [0:56] safe but the thing about anxiety is that [0:58] you get stuck in the anxiety spiral it [1:01] just keeps getting worse for example I [1:03] have memories and a lot of physical [1:04] scarring from sexual abuse which started [1:07] at 5 years old and then by the time I [1:09] was 30 I had depression and anxiety been [1:12] bedridden with autoimmune diseases [1:14] thinking I could just kill myself but I [1:16] can tell you with 100% certainty it is [1:20] possible to trick our brains and shut [1:23] down anxiety so if I'm feeling anxious [1:25] what would you recommend that I do [1:27] here's one of my [1:28] favorites this has always blown my mind [1:31] a little bit 53% of you that listen to [1:33] the show regularly haven't yet [1:35] subscribed to the show so could I ask [1:37] you for a favor before we start if you [1:39] like the show and you like what we do [1:40] here and you want to support us the free [1:41] simple way that you can do just that is [1:43] by hitting the Subscribe button and my [1:45] commitment to you is if you do that then [1:47] I'll do everything in my power me and my [1:48] team to make sure that this show is [1:50] better for you every single week we'll [1:52] listen to your feedback we'll find the [1:54] guest that you want me to speak to and [1:55] we'll continue to do what we do thank [1:57] you so much [2:01] Dr Martha within all your work what is [2:05] it that you're aiming to do and I guess [2:08] most [2:09] importantly equally importantly who are [2:11] you aiming to do it [2:13] for I could give you the normal answer [2:16] which goes down easily with most people [2:19] or I could give you the truth which [2:21] sounds really weird I'll take the truth [2:24] I was hoping you would say that so um in [2:29] all my work and this means from the time [2:31] I was little um I remember being [2:35] dreadfully anxious about not having done [2:38] enough toward it on the night before my [2:40] birthday one one year I was lying there [2:43] thinking I am supposed there's something [2:45] I'm supposed to help with on the earth [2:47] and I have not done enough and I've got [2:48] to get moving here and the next day I [2:51] turned [2:53] four so ever since I was little my whole [2:59] intent has been based on this feeling [3:03] that I was meant to help with a shift [3:06] that would happen in the world during my [3:08] lifetime and I did not know what it was [3:11] so I would ask myself what what is it I [3:13] would spend hours thinking what is it [3:15] and the only thing I got as an answer [3:18] was this poet this bit of poetry from TS [3:22] Elliot and it goes I said to my soul be [3:26] still and wait without love for for it [3:29] would be love of the wrong thing and [3:32] wait without hope for it would be hope [3:34] of the wrong thing there is yet Faith [3:37] but the love and the hope and the faith [3:39] are all in the waiting wait without [3:42] thought for you are not ready for [3:45] thought so the darkness shall be the [3:47] light and the Stillness the [3:51] dancing all [3:54] right as I got older and studied more I [3:58] began to think [4:01] what I'm meant to help with is a shift [4:04] in the way human beings perceive and [4:07] think and that is why I couldn't know [4:09] what it was [4:11] because to explain to someone a [4:14] fundamental shift in the way they think [4:17] would have to be processed through the [4:19] way they're thinking now and so it would [4:22] be fundamentally [4:24] misunderstood [4:26] so now I'm old and I don't care what [4:29] people think of me so I just say this [4:32] right out loud I used to it was a deep [4:34] Secret in my heart for decades and now I [4:37] just say I think there is going to be a [4:39] shift in the way in human [4:42] consciousness and I think it is going to [4:44] change the way humans relate to the [4:46] planet relate to each other relate to [4:50] themselves and I could be wrong but I [4:52] don't care I'm going to keep trying for [4:54] it till the day I [4:56] die and what is that shift in human [4:58] consciousness that you're predicting [5:00] wait without without thought but [5:02] actually no I I actually have a theory [5:04] now um my undergraduate degree was in [5:06] East Asian [5:07] studies I lived in Asia and studied [5:10] Chinese and Japanese and they have a [5:13] concept in Asia that is not well known [5:15] in modern Western culture and that is [5:17] the concept of Awakening and it's [5:20] Awakening out of the dream of thought [5:23] which is I mean the whole thing is now [5:25] like half of our listeners are at this [5:28] point probably thinking Steven has [5:31] brought a lunatic to the program I will [5:34] not listen to this episode but I'm [5:35] promising you it gets really cool if you [5:38] focus on it because when you awaken and [5:41] it's a it's a shift in the way a [5:44] fundamental perception it's also very [5:47] strong in India Tibet and the other [5:49] Buddhist countries it's a shift where [5:52] you you leave the aspects of your [5:55] thinking that cause you internal [5:58] suffering you see to suffer after you [6:02] awaken I think that's actually an [6:04] epigenetic shift that is inherent in the [6:08] brain of every individual and that many [6:11] individuals throughout history have gone [6:13] through it the great teachers uh I think [6:16] Nelson Mandela went through it in [6:18] prisent Robin Island so all over the [6:21] world in different cultures in different [6:24] parts of the world throughout history [6:26] individuals have described this [6:28] experience with very very consistent [6:32] terminology you awaken you realize that [6:36] the life you've been living is real but [6:39] only in the way a dream is real and that [6:42] the reality of the awakened state is [6:44] much more real and in that state there's [6:48] no fear there's no suffering there is [6:51] infinite compassion there is the desire [6:53] to serve there is love for all beings [6:57] not just every human but every being [6:59] there is and there is a kind of [7:03] fundamental peace and Bliss the Bliss of [7:06] being they call it in Sanskrit sa [7:08] tananda the Bliss of being becomes your [7:11] everyday [7:13] State I think if a critical number of [7:15] people experience that at the same [7:18] time we could just fix the problems [7:21] humans have been causing for the last [7:23] few thousand [7:25] years how could you persuade anybody [7:27] that that state of being is even [7:29] possible well I have a few [7:33] tricks there's no [7:36] persuading um I could show you a few [7:39] things if you want that I tend to do [7:41] when I'm coaching people so well let's [7:43] get on to that then um who are you in [7:47] terms of your [7:48] qualifications I am a person who has [7:53] experienced intense psychological and [7:56] physical suffering for decades [8:00] um absolute wreck of a human being [8:04] physically I was by the time I was 30 I [8:07] had been bedridden for 10 years with [8:09] autoimmune [8:10] diseases um had depression and anxiety [8:13] in massive amounts from the time I was [8:16] very small and then I actually had an [8:20] experience during a surgery which was [8:22] like a near-death [8:23] experience um where I felt like I saw [8:26] this light and I felt connected to it um [8:29] more than connected to it I [8:32] felt radically shifted and I came out of [8:37] that surgery and [8:38] changed I stopped telling a single lie [8:42] with any aspect of my speech [8:45] Behavior I would not lie after that so [8:49] in the next year that was a very [8:53] exciting year um I walked away from my [8:55] family religion which was very very [8:58] important in my my home community so [9:00] that meant I lost my family of origin my [9:03] community of origin every friend I'd had [9:07] before the age of 17 when I left for [9:09] college um I realized I was gay so I [9:11] left that was the end of my marriage um [9:14] I had to leave my home I had to leave my [9:16] I left [9:17] Academia basically threw everything into [9:20] the bonfire and I would not recommend [9:22] this to anyone listening out there don't [9:25] do I did this so you would not have to I [9:28] can tell you there are easier [9:31] ways but through it all through [9:36] everything I have studied with my mind [9:38] and through everything I've experienced [9:40] with my body and my [9:43] heart I'm not say I [9:46] awakened but I feel I know what [9:49] Awakening is and for that reason I feel [9:52] very safe in the world and very [9:56] joyful all I can say is this is in [10:00] you um I'm I may be able to help you [10:04] find it mhm but I I don't need to create [10:08] it who have you worked with on a [10:10] one-on-one basis what are the different [10:12] types of individuals that have asked for [10:14] your help and support everybody I mean [10:16] I've worked with homeless heroin addicts [10:18] on the streets of Phoenix because I [10:20] truly believe that the experience I had [10:22] in surgery with this light this absolute [10:25] homecoming and peace I actually [10:27] gravitated to addicts even though I've [10:29] never been addicted to substance because [10:33] when they say they can't live without [10:35] that first heroin hit that's how I felt [10:37] after coming out of that experience that [10:40] that light I was like I cannot live [10:43] without that and so I would tell the [10:45] heroin addicts I believe you're meant to [10:48] have that feeling you long for so much [10:50] but I also think you you get to keep [10:52] your teeth you know like there's another [10:54] way so I've worked with people like that [10:57] I've had had billionaires [10:59] clients I have counseled people in [11:02] prison because I'm a sociologist and if [11:05] I say something works for Humanity it [11:09] has to work across cultures and in all [11:11] situations poverty wealth captivity [11:15] Freedom um any situation it has to work [11:18] before I'll say I'll put my stamp on it [11:20] and say yeah I think that works and who [11:23] when you talk about you know helping [11:25] billionaires what do they come to you [11:27] seeking [11:29] or do they just Express symptoms or [11:31] something you know what almost everyone [11:34] has the same major problem and it's not [11:37] what you would think they want to know [11:40] their purpose they want to know why the [11:43] hell they're even here humans are the [11:45] only animals so far as we know that live [11:48] on a day-to-day basis with the [11:50] consciousness of our mortality we are [11:52] going to die so why are we even here [11:56] what am I doing here and it's it's the [11:59] same whether you're talking to someone [12:01] on the street or someone with a billion [12:04] dollars that desperation to know why [12:08] we're here and I think it comes out of a [12:11] culture that has fundamentally pulled us [12:14] away from from our inherent knowledge of [12:18] what we're meant to be and put us in a [12:20] place where we are obsessed with [12:22] productivity and consumption and [12:24] production of material [12:26] wealth and has actually cut us off off [12:29] from our own sense of meaning and that [12:32] that's actually in the brain that you [12:34] get stuck in a part of the left [12:36] hemisphere that is obsessed with [12:39] grabbing things and owning things and [12:41] controlling things and it's always [12:43] afraid it's always grasping and it [12:46] refuses to believe that anything but [12:48] itself exists but on the other side of [12:51] the [12:52] brain there is the self that connects [12:55] with meaning purpose [12:58] relationship [13:00] connection and living in a state of [13:02] nature as everyone did until a few [13:04] hundred years ago almost [13:07] everyone we would wake up a human would [13:11] wake up hearing wind and bird song and [13:14] other people's [13:16] voices they would rise and go to bed [13:19] according to the sunlight and the [13:21] temperature they had intimate [13:23] relationships with animals and with [13:25] plants and with the Earth [13:27] itself all of our biology evolved to be [13:31] in that situation we in one [13:35] Anthropologist called it the weird [13:38] societies Western educated [13:41] industrialized Rich Democratic we have a [13:44] fundamentally different way of living we [13:46] get up surrounded by artificial light we [13:48] push ourselves all day to do things that [13:51] we would never have done 300 years ago [13:55] spreadsheets um sitting next to people [13:57] we barely know who are assigned to be [13:59] there because we have similar tasks [14:02] which is a system based on Factory labor [14:05] which is horrible for people not to [14:08] solve real problems that matter to you [14:11] but to catch on to something that an [14:13] adult already knows who's going to [14:16] punish you or shame you depending on [14:18] whether you get the right answer or the [14:19] wrong it's a [14:21] bizarre very left hemosphere dominated [14:24] Society so Ian mcgilchrist my favorite [14:28] philosopher a neurologist or [14:30] psychiatrist says the whole culture [14:33] functions like someone with a severe [14:35] right hemisphere of stroke we live in a [14:38] bizarre crazy culture and we do not know [14:43] why we're here because we don't have [14:45] access to our sense of [14:47] meaning I just wanted to ask you you [14:49] know of all the things you could have [14:50] written about at this exact moment in [14:52] time you chose to write a book about [14:54] anxiety it's called Beyond anxiety [14:56] curiosity creativity and finding your [14:58] life's purpose [15:00] why did you choose that subject and [15:02] specifically this word anxiety above [15:04] everything else you could have written [15:05] about so after I wrote The Way of [15:08] Integrity where I say look if you [15:11] Integrity to me means that you are whole [15:13] and in that's the what the word means it [15:14] means intact it doesn't mean like [15:17] morally it just means structurally if [15:20] all your meaning making systems are in [15:22] order or are it's telling the same story [15:25] body heart Spirit mind if those are all [15:28] in agreement there is a kind of [15:30] grounding in reality and in that [15:33] reality what happens when you get into [15:36] that reality is you begin to awaken you [15:38] begin to experience spontaneously the [15:40] things that Eastern sages have described [15:43] about the sensation of suffering so I [15:47] was you know i' been studying toward [15:49] this for years and I thought this is the [15:50] last self-help book I'm ever going to [15:52] write because I really believe this is [15:55] it so people read the book and then they [15:57] would come to me and they'd say I have [15:59] put my whole life in Integrity but I'm [16:02] so scared all the time I am so afraid so [16:06] I started looking into it and realized [16:09] that anxiety is skyrocketing all over [16:13] the world it is by far the most common [16:16] mental health challenge that people face [16:19] something like uh 284 million people [16:23] last I checked were clinically [16:25] diagnosable with with anxiety disorder [16:28] during the pandemic year 2020 anxiety [16:32] went up all over the world by a full [16:36] 25% and here's the thing about [16:38] anxiety it's like one of those Tire [16:40] rippers that you drive across and you [16:42] can't drive back because the way the [16:45] brain is structured when you get into [16:47] anxiety it just keeps going up and up [16:50] and getting worse and worse and worse [16:53] and then when you get a lot of people [16:56] who are experiencing this intense [16:58] anxiety and they can't get out of it [17:01] they create a culture that reflects [17:04] anxiety and fosters anxiety without [17:08] really meaning to but that becomes if [17:11] you're if you're stuck in this very [17:13] mechanistic grasping way of being um [17:17] anxiety is inevitable and actually lawed [17:21] so I was amazed to find that Jeff Bezos [17:24] one of the richest men in the world says [17:27] in his quarterly report and loves to say [17:30] in many settings that he tells all of [17:33] the thousands of Amazon employees who [17:35] work under him he wants them all to wake [17:38] up terrified every morning and that's [17:40] the word he uses terrified and to stay [17:44] terrified all day because that makes [17:47] them [17:48] productive but most of these people are [17:51] just getting by financially he wants [17:54] them to be afraid all the time so that [17:57] he and the stockholders [17:59] can get more stuff and they already have [18:03] so much stuff you [18:06] know like 1% of the world's people own [18:10] something like 95 no 50% of the total um [18:15] wealth of the world is owned by the top [18:18] 1% it's [18:20] insane and so we're saying yes get up be [18:23] terrified as long as you're [18:27] productive and you know what but when [18:29] you get really productive and you earn a [18:32] lot of stuff and that's still your only [18:34] way of being you still wake up terrified [18:37] every morning and you st stay anxious [18:40] all day long fear see fear is like being [18:43] shot from a cannon if a bear came in [18:46] here we would both go whoa and we'd get [18:49] very clear instructions from our biology [18:51] to either fight flee freeze you know [18:54] hide under the table I would feed you to [18:56] the bear good luck with that good luck [18:58] with that I'm double your weight you [19:00] could totally take that bear I'm not [19:02] going to risk it I'd be out of here no [19:05] you would you would win anyway it would [19:07] eat me and then you would win [19:10] yeah and then our fear if we were like [19:13] other animals would subside M that's [19:16] normal fear an anxiety instead of being [19:19] like shot from a cannon it's like being [19:22] haunted something bad happens or we hear [19:25] about something bad happening and we get [19:28] that jolt of fear but instead of acting [19:30] and then relaxing we turn it into a [19:33] verbal story so a group of psychologists [19:37] um I think in the 90s decided to try to [19:40] figure out why humans of all animals are [19:43] the only ones who commit suicide on a [19:46] regular basis and what they found out [19:48] the answer is [19:51] language we humans have the capacity to [19:54] use language to create an abstract [19:57] vision of the future [19:59] that is more horrifying than the [20:01] prospect of Our Own Death we choose [20:04] death over the story of fear that we [20:07] carry in our minds and the spiral [20:11] happens because there's a jolt of fear [20:13] then a story about the fear and then [20:16] there's a story about how we have to [20:18] control the world so that we won't be in [20:21] danger anymore and we have to control [20:23] our loved ones so they want me in danger [20:25] and we have to control we just have to [20:28] control [20:29] but we honest to God really can't [20:31] control very much so then we get worried [20:34] we get even more scared and that feeds [20:36] back into these primitive brain [20:38] structures that say fear and then it [20:41] creates a bigger story and a more [20:43] control efforts and it goes up and up [20:45] and up and it doesn't go down because [20:50] that part of the brain has a very [20:53] peculiar I don't know how this evolved [20:56] it has this tendency to to truly believe [21:00] that nothing but itself [21:03] exists so you're going to have to [21:05] explain the brain to me in the context [21:07] you're describing it for me to [21:08] understand some of Point um tell me what [21:10] I need to know about the brain I'm going [21:12] to draw a little picture of it on my [21:14] iPad here so I can stay with you all [21:16] right so you've got your brain and it's [21:18] it's uh symmetrical right yeah to mirror [21:22] image there something in the middle [21:24] called the Corpus colosan that connects [21:26] it and I'm about to vastly oversimplify [21:29] and I'm not a neuroscientist so [21:31] neurologists I I beg you to forgive me [21:35] uh I know that the whole brain is [21:36] working almost all the time and that [21:38] left right uh [21:40] simplifications about the hemispheres of [21:42] the brain are [21:44] oversimplifications nevertheless there [21:46] are very dramatic differences between [21:48] what happens and so I'm going to talk to [21:50] those so on the left side you have this [21:53] thing called the anxiety spiral where [21:56] there's a little tiny part of your brain [21:58] called the amydala and it's very [22:01] primitive every animal with a spine has [22:04] one of these um or something very close [22:07] to it and its job is to make you safe by [22:11] being alarmed when you see unfamiliar [22:14] things it feeds information to layers of [22:18] the brain that are also ancient but not [22:21] as old and these on the left hemisphere [22:26] make you immediately start thinking of [22:28] ways to control a situation and then [22:31] when it gets to the outermost layer of [22:33] the left hemisphere which handles things [22:36] like time and language it starts to tell [22:39] a story defending the feelings it's [22:41] having so that's what the left [22:43] hemisphere does in this one little [22:45] compartment on the right side you also [22:47] have an amigdala you actually have two [22:49] of all these structures on the right [22:52] side the amydala also goes ah something [22:55] unfamiliar little burst [22:56] of then [22:59] and the right side it creates [23:02] curiosity instead of [23:05] aversion have you ever rubber necked at [23:08] an accident is that when you're like [23:10] what look yeah everybody slows down and [23:12] you're like what what happened what [23:13] happened course and and I always think [23:16] oh I should look away this is I'm being [23:18] like vois but I still really want to [23:21] look and the reason is that we evolved a [23:25] tendency to move away from frightening [23:27] things to be safe but toward them in so [23:32] far as we can figure out what happened [23:34] and avoid that happening to us so [23:37] curiosity is intense around Things We [23:40] Fear that's why the the average American [23:43] Child by the time they're ready for [23:45] college has witnessed on TV or or online [23:50] 16,000 or is it 60,000 murders we're [23:53] terrified of murder so we're obsessed [23:56] with it you do not have mystery stories [23:59] written about robbery it's murder okay [24:03] so the right side of migul goes [24:06] curious and then it starts to connect [24:09] things how can I figure this out that's [24:11] like that other thing so this is what [24:13] must have happened it's a [24:14] detective and it starts to put together [24:17] its own version of what happened doesn't [24:19] use language but it uses very Vivid [24:24] images and sensory details and it can [24:28] connect connect things in ways that are [24:30] highly original and inventive so you [24:33] immediately start to get [24:35] creative what I found in in the [24:37] wonderful books I wrote I read about [24:40] anxiety they always talked about how to [24:42] get your anxiety to calm [24:45] down but for me that wasn't enough as an [24:49] individual or just as a [24:52] theoretician because that just gets you [24:54] to the you flatten your anxiety but if [24:57] you go into the right hemisphere of your [25:00] brain and start to get creative [25:03] something really magical happens just as [25:07] anxiety shuts off [25:08] creativity creativity can shut down [25:11] anxiety it's like these two parts of the [25:14] brain [25:15] toggle and if you go to any traditional [25:18] culture you will find the Wise people [25:21] the elders the medicine people of that [25:23] culture talking about the Oneness of all [25:25] things it's not a New Concept [25:29] what I realized is that if I [25:31] deliberately chose to push my brain [25:34] toward [25:35] creativity and get the right side moving [25:38] my anxiety shut down and then I started [25:41] testing it on clients and on groups of [25:43] people online I'd design these you know [25:48] experiments because I was trained as a [25:51] sociologist and consistently I found [25:53] that this is the way to get rid of this [25:56] horrific scourge that is ruining so many [25:59] people's lives and what I always hear is [26:03] people say well there are real problems [26:05] we really should be [26:07] afraid my answer to that is if you were [26:09] in a horrible car accident God forbid [26:12] and you had many [26:14] injuries would you want the surgeons [26:17] working on you to be in a state of panic [26:22] or calm [26:24] creativity the only way we're going to [26:27] fix the problem we've made with our [26:30] fear-based [26:31] Behavior the only way to solve problems [26:34] this big is to access the incredible [26:38] capacity of human [26:40] creativity I believe we can do that as [26:43] individuals and as a [26:46] species so how would I go about [26:49] switching into this right hemisphere if [26:51] I'm feeling anxious what would you [26:53] recommend that I do it's so easy it's so [26:57] amazingly easy [26:59] now your brain naturally goes toward [27:01] anxiety because of something called the [27:02] negativity bias and I always think of it [27:05] as 15 puppies in a Cobra if I gave you a [27:07] box and it had 15 puppies and a cobra in [27:10] it what would catch your attention the [27:14] snake and that's because in evolutionary [27:17] terms paying attention to the SN snake [27:19] is a good idea yeah but um it we have [27:25] such a strong negativity bias in our [27:27] culture and we very little to pull us [27:29] back into communion with Oneness we [27:32] don't have nature around us anymore so [27:35] we have to do that we can trick our [27:37] brains into doing that and if you want [27:40] to play a little with this sure okay [27:43] tell me what to do first I want you to [27:45] think of something that makes you feel a [27:47] bit anxious maybe not panicky but [27:51] anxious and something you're willing to [27:52] like tell us what it is okay um [27:55] something that makes me feel a little [27:57] bit anxious yeah [28:00] this is an interesting one [28:02] um sounds like a strange thing to say [28:05] but um when my partner is not [28:10] happy and I know she's not happy but [28:13] she's not telling me why and I'm around [28:17] her and I can tell from her vibe her [28:19] face she's not happy about something and [28:21] I have no idea what it is okay I think [28:24] there will be many people out there who [28:26] know what this feels like yeah you are [28:29] describing a domestic a tiny domestic [28:32] nightmare that many of us feel so think [28:34] about that think about what that feels [28:36] like and just notice what it does to [28:37] your body and to your emotions MH what's [28:41] happening in your body if you're in that [28:43] situation with your partner like my [28:45] breath is short uhhuh yeah right I just [28:48] feel tense and I I become quite [28:51] impatient because I just need the answer [28:53] to like alleviate the anxiety yeah so [28:56] you've gone to a fight ORF flight nous [28:58] system arousal State okay uhuh something [29:01] something's wrong okay I'm very focused [29:02] yeah yeah I'm very focused and I'm very [29:04] like I'm anxious but I'm also a little [29:06] bit snappish because I'm I'm F fleeing [29:09] on one side I need to get out of this [29:11] situation but I'm fighting on the other [29:13] side like tell me what's wrong so you've [29:16] got a full fight ORF flight thing [29:18] happening so you can get into that by [29:21] imagining the situation now I want you [29:23] to imagine something else very vividly [29:26] um and it would probably help if you [29:28] close your eyes um have you ever eaten [29:30] an orange yeah all right so imagine that [29:34] you are holding an orange MH um it's a [29:39] nice ripe heavy delicious orange at the [29:42] peak of its ripeness I can tell you [29:46] you've already smelled it so you can [29:47] smell the Citrus you just take a bite of [29:51] it to break the seal of the of the [29:55] peeling and just feel that little spray [29:58] of citric acid that pops up when you [30:00] bite the peel and then the bitterness of [30:02] the [30:02] Rind and then as you bite in the juice [30:06] gets in your mouth it's sweet it's a [30:07] little bit [30:08] Tangy uh you can feel the filaments of [30:11] the skin and the stringiness of the [30:14] insides and you can pull it back you [30:17] pull back the peel you can feel it on [30:20] your fingernails you can smell it um put [30:24] just put the broken part to your mouth [30:26] and like squeeze the orange and let some [30:28] juice get into your mouth and taste it [30:33] completely and then swallow it and then [30:38] enjoy the sensation of tasting feeling [30:43] hearing even this [30:46] experience okay how's your anxiety my [30:50] anxiety went away it's gone yeah because [30:54] I asked you to use sensory imagination [30:57] mhm and that's handled by the right [30:59] hemisphere it's not in the left so [31:01] instead of verbal imagination which can [31:04] create horror stories you were in a [31:06] sensory [31:07] experience and what I don't think people [31:09] realize is that we're always imagining [31:12] what's going to happen to us in the next [31:14] few days weeks months years but we're [31:17] imagining it based on what we think is [31:19] real which is all the horror stories [31:22] we're hearing about oh you know I need [31:24] to mind my health I need to there will [31:26] be accidents there will will be you know [31:28] my loved ones will die we have all these [31:31] stories that we haven't happened yet [31:33] they may they're not lies but that's in [31:36] the mind as we make our choices I need [31:38] to get more money that whole [31:40] thing when you imagine forward with your [31:44] senses in a way that brings relaxation [31:48] how's your body when you're in the [31:50] orange thing you said it was tense when [31:52] you're in anxiety what happens to your [31:54] physical body when you're [31:56] completely connected to the experience [31:59] of this imaginary orange relaxes your [32:03] body relaxes yeah you start breathing [32:06] more deeply you stop producing all the [32:10] the cortisol the GL glucocorticoids the [32:13] adrenaline that you had in the fight [32:15] flight State and now you're starting to [32:18] produce serotonin and dopamine and and [32:21] the what they call the tend and befriend [32:24] hormones so you're say if you say you [32:26] could hold that in energy and your [32:29] partner is still tense and running [32:30] around but you're staying in [32:32] this relaxed [32:35] State can you then instead of being [32:37] afraid of her start to be curious about [32:43] what's going on instead of saying tell [32:45] me what's going on it's more like wow [32:48] she's really T I wonder what that's [32:50] about and you could even ask her [32:53] honey I don't want to step on your toes [32:55] here but the vibe I'm getting is that [32:58] you're not okay like can I help you so [33:02] it's a very very different thing to [33:04] approach conflict um one of the people I [33:07] wrote about in this book is Chris Voss [33:09] one of the FBI's top hostage [33:13] negotiators and when he's dealing with a [33:16] violent [33:17] Psychopathic terrorist who has people as [33:20] hostages he's ready to kill Chris Voss [33:24] says this is how you deal with [33:26] him gently [33:28] with a soft voice curious about his [33:32] experience and empathetic about it and [33:35] you're just thinking what this is not in [33:38] the [33:38] movies but the human amydala is a [33:42] frightened animal most of the time and [33:46] we all know that if you run at a [33:47] frightened animal and say tell me what [33:49] you want it doesn't get less [33:52] frightened so what you just did was move [33:54] your nervous system into a state [33:58] where you can be a field of Peace for [34:02] someone else who's anxious do you have [34:04] to do the orange thing the whole time to [34:05] get into that state no no no there are [34:07] many tricks do you want to do some more [34:08] sure [34:09] let all right here's one of my [34:12] favorites um and I got this from a [34:15] brilliant artist and professor at [34:17] Harvard William Ryman who I was his [34:20] lucky enough to be his teaching [34:21] assistant for a few years and this is [34:23] one of the things that he used to do to [34:25] get the students to shut down the the [34:27] left side of their brain well not shut [34:29] it down but to use the right side of the [34:31] brain as well because the left side of [34:33] the brain can't draw very well I have to [34:34] tell you this so all I want you to do is [34:37] put your stylus there over toward the [34:39] right uh Center of your field Y and [34:44] write your first name the way you [34:46] usually sign [34:47] it yeah all right the way I usually sign [34:50] it or write it the way you usually sign [34:52] it [34:54] okay yeah okay so the way I usually sign [34:57] it is a bit more licated o that's [34:59] beautiful okay so now put your P your [35:04] stylist just to the left of the [35:08] signature and now replicate the [35:10] signature but this time write it in [35:12] Mirror writing back cords take as much [35:15] time as you need gosh take as much time [35:18] as you need so difficult just breathe [35:22] wait I've got it wrong already can I rub [35:24] out absolutely you have as many tries as [35:27] you need [35:28] suar notice how the rhythm of your hand [35:32] goes when you're signing moving right [35:34] and try to see if you can find that [35:36] rhythm going the opposite direction I [35:38] might need pen and paper using pencil [35:41] and paper because they're tactile yeah [35:43] is actually you're going to have easier [35:45] access to it because you're have you're [35:47] going to have more access to the right [35:48] side of your brain this is so difficult [35:50] why is my signature so so complicated [35:53] you're doing brilliantly [36:03] you did it terrible yay no not terrible [36:07] now but the torture is not over Stephen [36:10] it's terrible it's beautiful you said [36:12] you wouldn't lie I I just SP your I just [36:14] meant your first name anyway okay is [36:16] good now while you were doing that you [36:18] might have felt intense frustration and [36:22] a sense of but when when you're anxious [36:26] about it you actually can't do it you [36:29] have to become engrossed with it in [36:31] order to do it because your brain is [36:34] creating new neurons synapses that have [36:36] never existed before you've never done [36:38] this before so you are fundamentally [36:41] changing your brain teaching in a skill [36:43] it has never had and this is what [36:46] children are going through when they [36:47] learn to write for the first time but [36:49] what you just did was connect to parts [36:53] of the brain that are in the right side [36:55] so this is why we used to make these [36:57] poor students do this because once they [37:00] could we had another book we worked with [37:02] called Drawing is forgetting the name of [37:04] what you see as long as you call it a [37:07] cup you can't draw it you draw your [37:10] image of a cup but when you forget to [37:13] call it anything it just becomes a shape [37:16] like your signature had to just become a [37:18] shape and shapes are on the right [37:22] hemisphere so what you just did was a [37:27] it's it's like [37:29] powerlifting you forced your brain to [37:32] create synapses that were brand new that [37:35] were taking you into a state of learning [37:38] deep [37:39] learning similar to what happens to [37:41] Children if you let them run around in [37:43] nature so there was a study done at Nasa [37:46] in the 60s to identify creative [37:49] Geniuses and they found that two% of the [37:52] adults they sought out like college [37:54] graduates were creative geniuses after a [37:57] while a few years they decided to try [37:59] giving it to four and fiveyear olds 98% [38:03] of them were creative [38:05] Geniuses and I think that probably the [38:08] other 2% were just having a bad [38:10] day what [38:12] happens between the moment you're four [38:15] years old a full-on creative genius [38:18] learning new things the way you just did [38:20] day and day out and adulthood where your [38:24] genius has mainly gone dark [38:28] it's because you stop trying things that [38:30] are brand new like that you're put in [38:33] the factory line in school and taught to [38:37] learn in a completely different way [38:38] that's based on shame and fear and [38:44] artificial skills that don't mean much [38:46] to you and right and wrong answers yeah [38:49] everything's right or wrong everything's [38:50] very judgmental in nature nothing's [38:53] judgmental um uh one of the things I've [38:56] done with groups of clients is take them [38:59] into a forest and uh with the help of my [39:03] uh another coach who's a great Woodsman [39:06] we have them we give them the tools to [39:08] make fire with sticks and rocks but they [39:11] have to work as a team and then we say [39:13] make fire but you can't talk about it [39:15] because language is in the left [39:17] hemisphere and sometimes they're out [39:19] there for four hours and the whole time [39:23] it's like ah what are we doing they try [39:26] all these different things and then I've [39:29] never had a group that didn't do it they [39:31] figure it out and you end up with a [39:33] little um flame in your hands and you [39:35] feed it a few bits of dried Moss or [39:38] whatever and you blow into it and it [39:40] starts to smoke and then smoke heavily [39:43] and then suddenly it just bursts into [39:46] flame and there's this feeling there's [39:48] this Promethean feeling oh my God we can [39:52] do [39:54] anything and [39:58] the fact that that's how we're built to [40:00] learn and there's joy in it there's a [40:04] kind of it's an achievement but Nature's [40:07] not saying wrong right you get a you get [40:10] an F you get an A you get higher levels [40:13] no you get fire or you don't get fire no [40:15] judgment so what does this mean for me [40:18] on a like day-to-day basis if I [40:20] understand the power of this does this [40:21] mean that I I should draw my name a lot [40:23] or is there something that I that we can [40:25] all be doing to alleviate our anxiety [40:28] and to get us into the right hemisphere [40:30] of our brain well there's to me there's [40:32] a three-step process and there are three [40:34] sections in the book the first one I I [40:37] use it with the acronym cat calm art and [40:41] Transcendence this is how it works the [40:43] first third of the book is just how to [40:45] calm your brain it's been taught to be [40:48] anxious um it is biologically [40:51] pre-programmed to be anxious so to calm [40:55] it down most people will say they'll [40:58] come in and tell me I want to fight my [40:59] anxiety I want to get it I want to end [41:01] it I want to bring it down I want it [41:03] gone because they think it's a broken [41:05] machine but it's not a broken machine [41:07] it's a frightened animal and if if you [41:10] came in and I said to you okay I want to [41:13] end you I want to bring you down I'm [41:15] going to fight you till you're gone [41:17] would you be less afraid or more [41:20] afraid so they're attacking the part of [41:23] themsel that's anxious and it makes it [41:26] more anxious [41:28] so and that's what we're taught to do [41:29] end it force it to calm down with [41:32] chemicals one of the most ghastly things [41:35] that ever happened in the in Psychiatry [41:37] was that they used to literally take [41:39] people who had you know inexurable uh [41:44] anxiety and literally put a screwdriver [41:47] through the eye socket and up into the [41:49] brain and just mix it [41:51] around that's how mechanistic we are [41:54] about our own [41:57] Minds we can fix it with a screwdriver [42:01] that's a very left hemisphere way to [42:02] think and it's literally attacking [42:05] ourselves but we're all we're all born [42:09] with the intrinsic knowledge of how to [42:12] calm a frightened animal so if you found [42:16] a terrified puppy on your stoop one [42:19] morning and you decided to try to help [42:21] it you would instinctively know that how [42:24] to do that what what would you do um [42:27] I would approach it slowly or not [42:29] approach it at all and I would get down [42:32] yes and I'd be very gentle and say hello [42:34] not ask it to come to me yeah and if it [42:37] didn't you'd give it space you'd give it [42:39] time you'd sit there with it yeah and [42:42] just the way your energy just changed [42:44] now you get down you begin to smile in a [42:47] very sweet way and I could feel the [42:51] tolerance and the gentleness and the [42:54] space that you would give this creature [42:57] we've got to learn to be gentle to [43:01] ourselves we are taught to be violent to [43:04] ourselves biohack that make you know [43:06] make yourself eat this and do that [43:09] and and instead if we could just go to [43:12] the anxious part like say you're with [43:14] your partner and she's acting weird and [43:17] you're feeling [43:18] anxious generally what we do is we try [43:21] to control the situation what can I do [43:22] can I make her happy I'll bring her [43:24] flowers I'll do whatever right have an [43:26] argument [43:27] instead of trying to control her the [43:31] best approach is go inside find the part [43:34] of yourself that's [43:36] afraid so if you're in that situation [43:40] and she's nervous and you just start to [43:42] observe your own [43:44] anxiety like okay what does that feel [43:47] like who is that in there who's who's [43:49] the anxious part of me and just notice I [43:52] mean try it right now if you don't [43:54] mind she's upset she's t she's not [43:57] telling you the problem notice the [44:00] anxiety where is it in your body [44:02] exactly it's like here in my chest okay [44:05] in your chest so allow that and say to [44:09] it I'm going to give you space I'm here [44:13] I'm going to be here with you uh I know [44:16] she's scaring you but I've got you it's [44:18] okay she's not going to hurt us I can go [44:21] in the other room with you if you need [44:23] and sit with it and say let me know what [44:28] what are you [44:29] feeling tell me everything you get to [44:33] feel exactly the way you [44:35] feel and I'm here to listen to anything [44:38] you want to tell me and I will not hurt [44:40] you and I will not try to stifle you or [44:43] make you go [44:46] away so how does that change anything [44:51] yeah for some reason it just um the [44:53] volume went down so describe it it's [44:56] just like the volume is went down it [44:57] made me wonder if just because just by [44:59] you saying that made me wonder if if in [45:02] those moments I should be writing it out [45:05] that can be really helpful there's a [45:06] psychologist named James Panabaker who [45:08] found that if he just had students he [45:11] just did this experiment once as a [45:12] graduate student he had students write [45:15] for 15 minutes about something that was [45:17] upsetting to them and many of them came [45:19] out of the experiment in tears it really [45:22] upset them for an hour or two he had [45:25] other students just write what they did [45:27] last summer or [45:29] whatever so there was this brief period [45:32] where the ones who had stirred up some [45:34] turmoil felt [45:36] unsettled but they in the in the weeks [45:39] and even the years subsequent to that [45:42] experiment they had fewer doctor's [45:44] visits they had less anxiety they had [45:46] better relationships they had better [45:48] everything so he for his whole career [45:52] just did these writing exercises where [45:55] we he would have people just Express [45:56] themselves [45:57] not to show anyone not even to [46:00] reread just to express MH the parts of [46:04] us that are frightened needs need to be [46:07] heard the parts of society that are [46:10] hurting need to be heard I'm astonished [46:13] by the um Truth and Reconciliation [46:16] councils held in South Africa after [46:18] Nelson Mandela became president these [46:20] people who had been [46:22] through absolute [46:25] atrocities and they were just heard they [46:29] were allowed to tell their stories to [46:30] the people who had hurt them and other [46:32] people who were on their side and the [46:35] telling of [46:36] it avoided you know what everyone [46:39] thought would be a blood bath and it it [46:42] of course didn't fix all the problems [46:44] but it unburdened to a large extent [46:48] people who had been through things that [46:49] I can't even imagine so yes write it [46:53] write it down so she's in the other room [46:55] she's acting weird [46:58] something might come up about like how [47:00] old is that anxious part maybe it's [47:03] young maybe it's [47:06] not you said something at the start you [47:08] said that [47:10] um anxiety is like driving over a metal [47:14] spike in those police like chases that's [47:16] what I was thinking about like the [47:17] police chases where they throw out the [47:18] metal spikes and the car over why why [47:21] did you use that analogy what are you [47:22] what are you saying there about the [47:23] nature of anxiety that's what it's like [47:25] if you get stuck in what it's called the [47:27] anxiety spiral uh in the brain the [47:29] anxiety cycle some people call it um so [47:32] what you have to do in that situation is [47:35] to extend the metaphor get out of the [47:37] car disarm the mechanism get that [47:41] mechanism out of the way you know the [47:44] the tire ripping thing and then you can [47:46] back out but the stopping and getting [47:50] out that's the calming step of anxiety [47:52] and that's what you're doing here as [47:54] weird as it sounds when you write your [47:56] name back backwards and you come into a [47:58] state of physiological calm you are [48:02] getting rid of the tire rippers You're [48:04] Building Pathways that go into the [48:06] calmer parts of the brain so um the same [48:10] thing when you were imagining eating an [48:12] orange you're calming yourself and it it [48:16] allows you to [48:17] reverse it allows you to leave finally [48:21] but our culture tends to not allow you [48:23] to leave it's always telling you horror [48:25] stories so then once you get really [48:29] calm and you've taken care of that part [48:31] of yourself I said the acronym is C [48:35] cat once you get to calm then very [48:40] paradoxically it blew me away when I [48:42] realized this then you need art and I [48:45] don't mean drawing I mean making things [48:49] making things in three dimensions making [48:52] events happen making a podcast like what [48:56] was the fire in you that made you make [48:59] things and how did it feel when you were [49:02] in the [49:04] making in the making it usually feels [49:07] great yeah like in the process of making [49:09] actually me and my partner went and did [49:10] um last weekend we went and made some [49:13] art and I was like stressed and stuff [49:16] and so when we went and did this art I'd [49:19] like never painted in my life yeah so we [49:21] went to this like random Loft and there [49:22] was this guy there and uh he had these [49:24] massive two pieces of cardboard and like [49:26] loads of spray cans and paint and stuff [49:27] and we just painted for maybe 3 hours or [49:30] something yeah and I was totally lost in [49:32] it I mean that's the way people describe [49:33] it they describe it as being lost in it [49:35] right yeah and do you know that if [49:37] people have been through a trauma and [49:39] they're allowed to draw about it even if [49:41] they can't draw you know [49:44] professionally they have an 80% lower [49:47] chance of developing PTSD there's [49:50] something about creating stuff and it [49:52] could be a company or it could be a [49:54] spray paint on a cardboard [49:57] um my partner um started making bead [50:01] bracelets a while ago she's very busy [50:03] she doesn't have time for this but it [50:05] makes her [50:07] so content and we were talking about how [50:10] if you go into a tomb in Egypt from [50:13] 5,000 years ago what are you going to [50:14] find among other things beaded bracelets [50:17] if you go to the Amazon rainforest and [50:20] contact an uncontacted tribe what might [50:22] you find beaded bracelets people are [50:25] making beaded bracelets all the time and [50:27] they serve no function they are precious [50:30] pointless things she said that we make [50:34] and all cultures make we make music I [50:37] mean I think about the cultures in [50:39] Jamaica one of the worst slavery [50:42] colonies in the history of the world it [50:44] it was just it made what was happening [50:46] on the mainland look gentle by [50:48] comparison and out of that you get these [50:51] incredible art forms [50:53] reggae Dance I mean like in the middle [50:56] of [50:57] being crushed having literally [50:59] everything taken from them people were [51:01] still making [51:03] art this is a part of the human spirit [51:07] that is just it's indomitable and our [51:10] culture pushes it to the fringes okay [51:13] Stephen you can do that on a weekend [51:15] that's nice but did you really make any [51:18] money you know get a real job yeah how [51:22] does this link again back to the brain [51:24] so if I'm creating I'm making some art I [51:26] was doing that spray paint thing with [51:27] the paint in the I'll show a picture of [51:29] it after I actually think cool I want to [51:31] see but how is that helping me to calm [51:35] my anxiety it's because of the way the [51:37] structures on the left side um they're [51:40] obsessed with grasping um material [51:42] objects acquiring controlling other [51:45] people always thinking about fear [51:48] and there does seem to be this toggle [51:51] effect that anxiety and creativity just [51:55] can't work at the same time so the [51:58] moment you begin to create like when you [52:00] said I could write this that's [52:02] expressive writing that's artistic [52:04] writing and all of a sudden the toggle [52:08] switches off in anxiety and on in [52:11] creativity so I believe that there's [52:15] another Spiral on the right side of the [52:17] brain but instead of spiraling tightly [52:19] into fear it spirs it it spirals [52:22] outward and ultimately you get to the [52:25] final thing there's calming there's [52:28] Artistry and then there's [52:30] Transcendence or Awakening when you're [52:33] there sometimes we call it Flo chicks at [52:36] Nei the psychologist who named it Flo um [52:40] really looked into this and it's a state [52:42] of creating and performing at a level so [52:46] difficult we almost can't do it the [52:48] exactly the way you were writing your [52:49] name it's [52:51] like and you can have what's called The [52:53] Rage to master where you're just like [52:55] I'm [52:56] can't but when you get it and I'm sure [53:00] you've had this with many things you've [53:02] created in your life it's like flying [53:05] it's heaven and there's a time in the [53:08] process of creation creating where the [53:11] sense of self Falls away and the sense [53:14] of control isn't necessary and what you [53:17] feel is creation itself sort of moving [53:21] with you and through you and it's [53:24] Blissful and I believe that is the state [53:28] in which we are meant to spend almost [53:30] all our time and I think that would [53:33] transform our Consciousness this is a [53:36] related but slightly unrelated um topic [53:39] but there's a lot of people and certain [53:42] demographic suffering in different ways [53:43] at the moment yes there's like a [53:45] conversation I hear a lot about men [53:46] suffering with meaning and purpose and [53:48] those things and I hear this other [53:49] conversation about young women suffering [53:52] and depression anxiety being on the rise [53:54] there when you think about those two [53:56] group groups so like men and young women [53:58] what is it that you think is the cause [54:00] causal factor of their suffering because [54:02] their suffering is similar and different [54:04] yeah well it's it's conditioned by the [54:07] way the brain works it works very [54:08] differently in pubescent girls than it [54:10] does in say adult men young adult men [54:13] their brains work very differently from [54:16] Elders that's why in traditional [54:18] societies the young men would be herded [54:21] together and sometimes for example in [54:24] some cultures their faces would be [54:26] scared they would leave their name [54:28] behind they would leave all the [54:29] possessions they had or burn them and [54:32] they would be taken into the Wilderness [54:34] by the elders and the elders would [54:36] proceed to scare The Living Daylights [54:38] out of them making strange noises in the [54:40] brush um putting them through a kind of [54:44] trial and the result of this is it kind [54:47] of disintegrates the ego and you still [54:50] see it in like if you see movies about [54:52] the the Army and how the the tough but [54:55] Heart of Gold Sergeant breaks down the [54:58] young soldiers egos so that they finally [55:01] say okay I am not the center of the [55:05] universe I need my brothers to exist and [55:09] I I bow down in the face of nature which [55:12] is greater than I am and then the elders [55:14] say all right now you're ready to be a [55:16] man go back to the village and tell [55:18] people your new name which you get to [55:20] choose young girls at puberty go through [55:23] the opposite experience in many cultures [55:25] they are isol ated in places away from [55:28] All Humans because the primary [55:30] psychological task According to some [55:33] theories of males is that they're born [55:35] sort of differentiated and very [55:37] individual and they need to learn to [55:40] integrate with other people to be [55:42] whole females tend to be born or people [55:45] identified as female are born very [55:47] integrated and the task of female [55:51] maturation is to [55:53] individuate so young girls who haven't [55:56] they're just at the stage where they [55:57] need to find out who they are as an [55:59] individual and instead they're very [56:02] integrated with networks of people who [56:05] are psychologically attacking each other [56:09] in ways that are extremely harmful to [56:13] their psyche at that stage in a [56:15] traditional culture they might be put in [56:18] say a hut that was dark and given food [56:20] every day but you're in there by [56:22] yourself to until you learn I'm okay I [56:25] can actually go inside myself and find [56:29] the truth of who I am on the other hand [56:32] the boys are out there going ah I can [56:35] give up thinking I'm all that and I can [56:40] kneel in reverence at the Oneness of it [56:43] all and then they come back together and [56:45] they've got a lot in common at that [56:47] point because the men now realize they [56:49] need people and the women I realize that [56:51] they're having Independence exactly and [56:53] so each can understand the other better [56:55] I mean the wisdom of these cultural [56:57] Traditions is incredible and we just [56:59] don't have it we don't have it the the [57:03] internet in particular spins out the the [57:08] individuation of young men makes them [57:10] feel like you know they do have bands [57:13] and brothers but it's like we're under [57:14] attack man and I really I'm gonna try to [57:17] I have to achieve I'm going to try it [57:19] this way and I'm G to try it that way [57:20] and there's a lot of battle games and [57:22] stuff but none of the humility that [57:24] comes from the elders MH and these young [57:27] girls are just caught in horal Winds of [57:30] social toxicity when they might be [57:33] taught to [57:36] meditate and we can still do all those [57:39] things we can still access those things [57:42] you talked about suicidal ideation [57:45] earlier on being unique to humans when [57:47] we think about suicidal ideation it's [57:48] part particularly prominent in young men [57:51] I think in the UK the stat is still the [57:52] case that the single biggest killer of [57:54] young men is themselves under the age of [57:55] 45 [57:57] wow so why why is that you know we [58:00] talked about meaning and purpose and [58:01] stuff earlier why are young men killing [58:03] themselves at alarming [58:05] race because it is easier in the mind to [58:09] take arms against a sea of troubles like [58:12] it's Hamlet speech you know why should I [58:15] stay alive in a world where everyone [58:17] dies and we're all assaulted by the [58:21] slings and arrows of Outrageous Fortune [58:23] he's just watched his father die and [58:24] he's like why would I keep going I could [58:27] just kill myself because men are taught [58:32] combat as a way of control if you're [58:36] afraid every movie will tell you get a [58:39] gun like the Matrix where the guy learns [58:42] he can control everything with his mind [58:44] everything he's controlling with his [58:45] mind so what does he do he says we're [58:48] going to need a lot of guns you can [58:50] control the universe with your mind you [58:52] don't need guns right but there's just [58:54] this obsession with weaponry and that's [58:58] kind of in the DNA but when you get [59:00] people in a spiral of fear it becomes [59:04] intense and Military all the genocides [59:07] committed throughout history have relied [59:10] on like really toxic leaders accessing [59:14] vulnerable young men and militarizing [59:17] them against other people which is [59:19] really easy and if they're on their own [59:22] isolated and there are no Elders taking [59:24] them in groups doing things they turn [59:26] that on themselves so what is the what [59:29] is the solution then for young men uh I [59:32] would say look to our ancestors you know [59:35] let's take young men um the the coach [59:40] Michael trada that I used to go with to [59:42] make fire in the woods he originally [59:44] worked with and probably still does work [59:46] with groups of young men and he used to [59:49] wear us uh he was he was a disciple of [59:53] um I think it was the Odawa tribe of [59:56] indigenous Americans and he always wore [59:58] this shirt that said listen to [60:00] grandfather and he would take these [60:02] confused hurting young men out and he [60:05] would put them through the trials that [60:08] they would have had in a traditional [60:10] society and they would have to learn to [60:12] make fire together and they would have [60:14] to learn to feed each other what they [60:16] could find and um use their skills in [60:19] hunting building all of that for the [60:22] community and I just watched him heal [60:24] boy after boy after [60:26] boy and it that's not that hard to do [60:31] why is it he healing for them doing that [60:34] using their skills hunting surviving [60:36] because it's what we evolved to do like [60:40] the lives we're giving people now the [60:42] lives most of us are living are so [60:45] alienating it's such an abnormal this [60:48] here is not [60:50] normal right this is not a forest or a [60:53] beach or a desert this is all man-made [60:56] it's full of right angles which don't [60:57] even very rarely exist in nature only in [61:01] crystals for people that AR watching [61:03] video she's pointing at the studio yeah [61:04] I'm pointing at the studio which is [61:06] Lovely by the way absolutely [61:08] state-of-the-art [61:10] but if you talk about human evolution [61:15] and the incredible sophisticated nervous [61:18] systems we have they evolved intimately [61:21] for a totally different environment and [61:25] this is is scary so what do we do about [61:28] it because you know the more I listen to [61:29] you I think maybe I should run away like [61:31] maybe I should I have the funds to run [61:34] away I could I could go forever and I do [61:37] wonder I go probably be happier maybe [61:40] maybe I'd start creating though and then [61:42] this is what I said I did a solo episode [61:43] on my podcast recently I said if I ran [61:45] away then I'd start creating and then [61:47] you know I might start a podcast on the [61:48] beach in barley and then you would you [61:51] would create stuff you can't help [61:52] yourself and that's why you are [61:55] obviously like physically healthy you [61:59] seem incredibly balanced and wise like [62:02] you've been making stuff so you're very [62:05] much like your sorry to use California [62:08] language but your energy is very calm [62:11] but also very [62:14] exuberant your [62:17] story is um is heartbreaking in many [62:21] ways but it's it's so evidently shaped [62:24] the person that sits in front of me [62:25] today because you're at a very young age [62:28] which you've not we've not really spoken [62:29] about much you were part of the Mormon [62:31] religion oh yes I [62:33] was take me into that before 10 years [62:36] old how that experience before the age [62:38] of 10 has shaped the person you are so I [62:41] was born not just into a Mormon um [62:44] family but a Mormon Community where [62:46] everyone shared the same beliefs you [62:47] didn't call people um Mr and M it was [62:51] brother and sister brother Smith sister [62:53] Smith um and [62:57] I was told from very young I mean you're [63:00] indoctrinated at 18 months you start [63:02] religious training and they tell you [63:04] things like um you know if men live well [63:08] and they're part of the Mormon church [63:10] then when they die they get their own [63:11] planet and all the women they want I [63:15] like all right like you're three years [63:16] old what do you know right and Jesus is [63:19] going to come over the mountains and all [63:22] the graves are going to fly open and all [63:24] the bodies the literal bodies of all the [63:27] dead people are going to rise up out and [63:29] go join Jesus which is why we don't [63:32] cremate bodies we bury them because [63:34] they're gonna come back to [63:36] life and um I would have nightmares of [63:40] Jesus coming over the mountains the [63:42] graves flying open all the people around [63:44] me are rising up and I would run as a [63:47] little kid this happened over and over [63:49] again this dream where I was trying to [63:51] jump high enough to go with the people [63:54] who were being saved and I couldn't do [63:56] it I was I just kept coming back down so [63:59] I lived in absolute Terror all the time [64:04] and I also didn't know what was real [64:06] because none of it nothing felt [64:09] real so that was it's very disconcerting [64:13] but because I'd never had any other [64:15] experience I just thought well this is [64:17] life so that was rough and at 28 years [64:21] old you realized that you'd been [64:22] sexually assaulted as a child yeah I [64:24] think I had [64:26] I had hints of it actually friends told [64:28] me that I had told them about it in high [64:30] school and I don't remember telling them [64:32] so I had pretty much repressed it my [64:35] father was a very very [64:37] renowned um scholarly defender of [64:40] Mormonism his job was to take the claims [64:45] of the doctrine and validate them you [64:49] know [64:50] academically but in order to do that I [64:53] talked to many people who many of he had [64:56] five people working with him to help him [64:59] translate various documents of different [65:01] languages and they said he would just [65:02] make things up and put them as footnotes [65:06] in different languages so no one was [65:08] likely to check them um and it was [65:12] called lying for the [65:13] Lord which is so weird I mean it means [65:17] you have a god who's fundamentally [65:20] interested in helping people be like God [65:23] by lying [65:26] so yeah I was twisted in knots um when I [65:30] was little and then I think it twisted [65:34] my father into knots as well and I do [65:37] have memories and a lot of physical [65:39] scarring from sexual abuse that sort of [65:44] blew up in my into my [65:47] Consciousness right after I had that um [65:51] the light experience that came to me in [65:54] surgery and um it actually told me [65:57] during the surgery you're about to go [65:59] through something very very difficult [66:01] but I've always been with you and I'll [66:03] always be with you never forget [66:06] that and that's why I decided not to lie [66:09] anymore and that's why when I started [66:11] having these [66:13] memories it didn't matter [66:18] because because connection with that [66:20] light and never forgetting it was the [66:23] realest maybe the only absolutely true [66:27] thing that had ever happened to me and I [66:29] was not leaving again abuse at the hands [66:33] of your father yes yeah and you [66:36] remembered that at 28 years old yeah you [66:39] recalled it at 28 years old it well it [66:41] it sort of exploded into my mind at [66:44] they're called intrusive flashbacks um [66:47] I'd had a lot of lot of symptoms of PTSD [66:50] my whole life without knowing it but my [66:54] oldest child got to be the age I was [66:57] when the abuse started occurring 5 years [67:00] old and she looked just like me at that [67:03] age and it every time I looked at her I [67:06] would just have these incredibly violent [67:10] it's not like a memory it's like it's [67:11] happening it's like you're completely [67:15] overwhelmed by it um for a period of [67:18] time and it was it was extraordinarily [67:21] hard I'm not going to lie it was bad and [67:24] I called my mother and and she said well [67:26] yes that's what happened I was like what [67:28] you agree with me and she said why [67:30] shouldn't I I know him better than you [67:33] and I said okay so like what do I do and [67:37] she said well obviously you have to [67:38] protect the church you called your [67:41] mother to tell her you've been sexually [67:42] abused and you realized and she said yes [67:44] she knows well she called me and said [67:46] what's going on why why are you not [67:47] visiting us and I said all right I had [67:50] taken a vow not to lie so I told her the [67:53] truth expecting her to go into a rage or [67:56] something and she said well yeah that's [67:59] how it is um she said well yeah that's [68:01] how it is yeah I believe you that's that [68:05] sounds right that tracks what how how [68:08] did it track what did she know she said [68:10] I know him better than you do and I said [68:13] I don't remember this was 30 years ago [68:16] but I said [68:17] um he's really he's not an honest man [68:20] and she said no he's not [68:23] honest and then she said you better come [68:26] and make him a [68:28] cake which [68:31] is is weird frankly to say yes I believe [68:35] you were raped by your father at the age [68:37] of five and by the way the surgery I was [68:39] in when I had the light experience was [68:42] surgery to correct some of the scar [68:44] tissue left by the abuse I was it had [68:46] ripped internally and I was bleeding [68:48] internally and they just found all this [68:50] scar tissue and um where it probably [68:54] shouldn't have been [68:56] and so for a mother to sayoh yeah I [68:58] completely believe that's true and what [69:00] I think you should do about it is to [69:01] make your perpetrator a [69:05] cake kind of sums up the way I was [69:08] raised and I just I tried I made the [69:12] cake I went down I served the cake and [69:14] then I just couldn't go back I just [69:17] couldn't did you confront him I did yeah [69:20] um I confronted him at first and then [69:25] you years later 10 years later or so [69:27] when he was 90 91 I was born when he was [69:31] 52 and [69:32] [Music] [69:34] um uh I wanted to meet with him after [69:37] I'd forgiven him to tell him that I'd [69:40] forgiven him so that he would not have [69:42] to carry that because he was a very very [69:46] miserable strange disassociated human [69:49] being like really really weird um people [69:52] he was brilliant but very very very [69:56] broken and um I think he had to choose [69:59] between his entire sense of reality and [70:03] his religion and he chose the religion [70:06] and he chose the job of talking other [70:09] people into believing the religion and I [70:12] think it just completely broke him and [70:15] that plus um he was in World War II and [70:18] saw a lot of action there and he was I [70:21] forgive him you know by the way anyone [70:24] listening to this you do know not have [70:25] to forgive your [70:27] perpetrator find a way to be in your own [70:30] truth in your own Integrity you will [70:32] heal you will be happier then you will [70:35] notice that there is no more anything to [70:37] forgive you're done did he acknowledge [70:39] that he had done it no [70:42] um it's very strange about it though he [70:46] didn't [70:47] say I never did that he said oh but that [70:50] was the evil [70:52] one meaning the devil and that was my [70:54] family was that I'd been sexually [70:56] assaulted by the devil as a child and [70:59] that that's why I had scars and so on [71:02] and so he said yeah that was the evil [71:03] one I think meaning the devil but maybe [71:06] he meant part of him that was evil he [71:10] never really talked to me my whole life [71:13] we never had like conversations he would [71:16] switch languages he would literally [71:18] physically run away from me it was very [71:20] very strange yeah wasn't a normal [71:23] childhood or adulthood [71:25] and after that phone call with your [71:27] mother where you confronted her about it [71:28] and she said that sounds about right um [71:31] I read that she then denied after oh she [71:34] totally retracted it yeah I mean she had [71:36] to live with him and she couldn't very [71:39] well like agree with me in his presence [71:44] so um when I asked her I I met with both [71:47] of them in my therapist's office and I [71:49] saidh did you tell me that you've agreed [71:52] with me and that it made sense to You' [71:55] and she said oh I just assumed you were [71:57] joking which was like nah that [72:02] no so did she ever admit that she had [72:06] said that no she never did I never saw [72:10] her again and but actually I have to say [72:15] if I had to as a child if I had to [72:17] choose one of my parents to be around it [72:19] would have been my father because my [72:20] mother [72:22] was just a big ball of misery and rage [72:27] and I never once remember feeling safe [72:30] around her why she I I had the distinct [72:35] impression she hated me really yeah [72:38] because Mormons believe that children [72:41] choose to be born to specific parents [72:45] and so and she had had five children and [72:48] one still birth and her body was over it [72:51] and she was done and she was sick and [72:54] depressed and miserable and then she had [72:56] three more children I was seventh of the [72:59] eight surviving children and the last [73:03] four of us she was really angry that we [73:06] had forced ourselves upon her she did [73:08] not want us and she was angry because we [73:12] had been born and she was depressed [73:15] right I I read was reading through your [73:16] story about how she spent a lot of time [73:18] in bed upset crying yeah like all the [73:21] time I had a weird privilege of watching [73:24] her funeral funeral on um what do they [73:28] call it closed circuit TV during the [73:31] pandemic or just after um one of my [73:34] sisters had gotten back in touch with me [73:36] over after 30 years of no contact and it [73:40] was the strangest thing because I was [73:42] going to go do something that day and [73:43] then I thought no I've got to go lie [73:44] down in bed which I don't do and then [73:47] I've got to watch TV which I never do [73:50] during the day and then I got a text [73:53] from my sister saying our mom's funeral [73:55] is on TV right now at this link so I sat [74:02] there and I watched it and it was quite [74:04] validating one of my brothers got up and [74:06] started out by saying if you came here [74:09] expecting to hear stories of motherly [74:11] love you are at the wrong funeral really [74:16] yeah and [74:18] and my siblings said things like it's so [74:20] much that she was depressed it was kind [74:22] of like depression is who she was [74:26] was it was I feel [74:29] tremendous sadness for my mother [74:33] tremendous compassion and empathy to the [74:36] point I mean [74:38] heartbroken about the life she lived and [74:41] the life that many other women live sort [74:44] of in Crazy systems feeling they have no [74:48] power [74:49] um it just destroyed me to to feel how [74:55] much pain she was in but uh yeah she [74:58] didn't like [75:00] me did you ever figure out why your [75:04] parents were they way that they were [75:05] outside of the influence of the religion [75:08] was there anything that happened to them [75:10] oh yeah tons of things like they were um [75:13] my grandmother my mother's mother I [75:15] think was a complete psychopath she was [75:18] pr- naazy in World War II she I what [75:22] like who does that she was Swedish and [75:25] she just thought that was the right [75:26] thing to do um was there a suspicion [75:29] that your dad was abused oh he was [75:31] definitely abused by his mother he was [75:33] sexually abused by his yes yes and that [75:35] was known my mother had told me this [75:37] before um yeah she would do horrible [75:41] things she would put she would wound him [75:43] and put be Venom on his genitals and um [75:48] be very sexual toward him I mean it was [75:50] a mess it was [75:52] horrible the the things that happened to [75:55] at that age they left their fingerprints [75:57] on you as you went through your teen [75:59] years oh yeah I I was listening to an [76:01] interview you did where you were [76:02] describing being I think 17 18 years old [76:04] and you were thinking about ending your [76:06] own life oh constantly constantly yeah [76:10] like it was a daily struggle not to [76:13] through through what period of your life [76:15] I would say [76:17] about 16 well it started right around 13 [76:21] but by the time I was 16 it was pretty [76:23] constant 17 189 it [76:27] was all I could do to not commit suicide [76:31] and then um it kind of went on it went [76:35] to a level of like I can hang on during [76:38] my [76:39] 20s but I think I was 32 the day I [76:43] realized it was the first day I [76:45] remembered that I hadn't wanted to kill [76:48] myself yeah why why do you think that [76:51] was so present in your life those [76:54] thoughts because I was in tremendous [76:56] amounts of physical and psychological [76:59] pain and are the two linked they were [77:01] for me yeah they were very much um [77:05] psychogenic pain you know the body mind [77:08] interface is not there's not much [77:11] separation and for me one of the things [77:13] I talked about in the way of Integrity [77:15] is that when we lie our bodies get very [77:17] weak so um like I could do a simple [77:22] little hokey test with you where I could [77:24] oh you want to do it okay so stick your [77:27] arm out yeah and hold it up don't let me [77:30] push it down okay don't let me push down [77:32] yeah okay got that now I want you to do [77:35] that while lying and the LIE I'd like [77:37] you to say is I love to [77:39] vomit okay I love to vomit say it [77:43] holding your arm up yeah say it I love [77:46] to vomit why that's so weird now say I [77:49] love fresh [77:50] air um I love fresh I love fresh [77:53] air yeah I'm trying my very heart say it [77:56] again I love fresh air now say I love to [77:58] vomit I love to vomit why is that that's [78:01] so strange this is why polygraph [78:03] machines work on everybody with [78:05] Psychopaths just for people that [78:06] couldn't see that because they were [78:08] listening when I don't know if I've just [78:10] been like messed with in some way but [78:13] when I said I love to [78:15] vomit I she could push my hand down but [78:19] when I said I love fresh air she [78:21] couldn't push my hand down and she was [78:22] trying both times she was pushing hard [78:24] both times and I would think that I'd be [78:25] able to resist both forces but when I [78:28] said I love to vomit it was like the [78:31] only way I can describe it was I wasn't [78:34] actually connected to my strength and my [78:36] hand exactly I wasn't it was like I was [78:38] inside my head so I couldn't also at the [78:41] same time think about you you're about [78:43] to push me right it was like there was [78:45] two different systems yes because the [78:47] body lives in reality the body is honest [78:51] only the mind and only the verbal mind [78:54] can lie to us and tell us things um that [78:58] we we can believe even though they're [79:00] not true so I love to vomit as a [79:03] statement that says it's okay to for me [79:05] to be feel horrible but a smaller [79:08] version of this is I often speak to [79:11] groups and often they're in like hotel [79:13] ballrooms or in auditoriums and I'll [79:16] stop right in the middle of the speech [79:17] and say apropo of nothing is everyone [79:21] comfortable and they'll say yes and no [79:24] really truly is everyone are you [79:26] genuinely comfortable are you really [79:28] comfortable and they say yes go on with [79:31] your speech and then I say so how many [79:34] of you if you were sitting at home alone [79:35] if you were at home alone right now how [79:37] many of you would be in exactly the [79:39] position you're in at this moment and [79:42] nobody raises a hand and then I say why [79:46] not and they have to sit and think for a [79:50] long time before someone finally says [79:53] I'm not completely comfortable this [79:57] way and I would say well that's okay [80:00] because humans can tolerate a lot of [80:02] suffering and this is mild what concerns [80:06] me and should concern you is that 30 [80:08] seconds ago you swore to me in broad [80:10] daylight that you were absolutely [80:12] comfortable well you're you knew you [80:15] weren't your body knew you weren't [80:17] comfortable and your mind was doing this [80:21] little this little trick where it goes [80:23] very quickly through this okay in order [80:25] to listen to speeches we sit in [80:26] uncomfortable positions and that's okay [80:28] because it's worth the benefit we get [80:30] out of it so given that I am tolerably [80:32] comfortable but all you think is I'm [80:35] comfortable when you're not comfortable [80:38] so people come to me and they're in jobs [80:40] where they're not comfortable in [80:42] relationships where they're like [80:44] sometimes in intense suffering in [80:46] religions where they're not comfortable [80:48] in all kinds of places and they're they [80:51] think they're comfortable but they're [80:52] getting sick they're getting getting [80:55] physically sick or they're getting [80:57] addicted to a substance because they're [81:00] trying to numb the discomfort they won't [81:04] acknowledge and so pretty much all I do [81:07] is help people get in touch with a [81:10] really really benevolent friend called [81:12] suffering when you know what makes you [81:15] suffer you're getting accurate [81:17] information from your entire [81:19] neurological system about what's working [81:23] for you and what isn't [81:25] and what would be better what would be [81:28] more comfortable just a little bit and [81:31] if you keep correcting I call them one [81:33] degree turns I would be a little more [81:35] comfortable doing this so I did the like [81:39] run off a cliff method don't do my way [81:42] do the one degree turns if you're in an [81:45] airplane and it turns one degree North [81:47] every half [81:49] hour over 10,000 miles you won't even [81:52] notice your turning but you'll be in a [81:53] completely different Place mhm and [81:56] that's just [81:58] noticing oh I'm this isn't very [82:01] comfortable for me I would rather do [82:03] this you know my girlfriend is anxious I [82:07] could break my back trying to figure out [82:10] what's going on and getting her enough [82:12] presents to make her happy or I could go [82:15] in the other room sit down be gentle [82:17] with myself maybe do a little writing [82:20] about how I feel that would be a little [82:22] more comfortable [82:26] it almost feels like we've been trained [82:29] not to listen to how we feel 100% 100% [82:33] as Sir Ken Robinson says you know we're [82:34] trained to think of our bodies as [82:37] mechanisms that take our heads to [82:39] meetings you know that the meetings are [82:41] all important and our heads are all [82:43] important and all the rest of our [82:46] evolution is meaningless to us that's a [82:49] very left hemisphere dominated way of [82:51] thinking and that's why Ian migil Chris [82:53] says live like people with right [82:55] hemisphere Strokes we're not even in our [82:59] bodies I think maybe you are more than [83:01] most people the way you talk about it [83:04] and the way you've made decisions [83:07] really it it speaks to me of a person [83:10] who finds what's right for him [83:16] very with a lot of [83:18] Integrity yeah well I think um I think [83:21] yeah one of the things I the reason I [83:22] say that is because I've been saying on [83:24] stage and wanted to see if you thought [83:25] it was true this idea CU people ask me [83:27] all the time they ask me about meaning [83:29] and purpose and what decision they [83:30] should make and should they quit their [83:31] job or quit their relationship and my [83:33] response for the last I'd say 12 months [83:35] has just been to try and impress upon [83:37] them that they were born with this thing [83:38] inside them which is how you feel yeah [83:41] and you you've learned not to listen to [83:42] it because your mother's opinion of [83:44] which university you go to has like [83:45] superseded it and Instagram has but I [83:47] know it's there because I know like [83:49] evolutionarily you wouldn't be here if [83:51] your body didn't have signals to tell [83:53] you to run to tell you to be scared to [83:54] tell to move away from this person so I [83:56] know it's there but you just probably [83:57] tuned it out yeah and um I say that to [84:00] people and I've almost never asked them [84:02] if that resonated with them but I just [84:04] just been saying it for a while so I [84:05] don't even know if it's like true but [84:07] it's just how I experience life CU my [84:09] decision like the reason why I'm like [84:10] here now is because of just I quit a lot [84:13] of stuff yes so like and I quit people [84:16] go you're so young it's like actually [84:18] it's not that I made great decisions [84:19] it's just I think the skill of quitting [84:21] was one that just came naturally to me [84:22] so like I don't like being at school [84:24] stopped going I don't like University I [84:26] left after the first lecture I started a [84:28] business did it for two years quit that [84:30] business out the blue started another [84:31] business did that one for six seven [84:32] years quit that one out of the blue I [84:34] love it and um it's it was all like the [84:37] I didn't need to have a place to go to I [84:41] didn't need to have like a better option [84:42] it was just this doesn't feel good I [84:43] love that but that's kind of running off [84:45] the cliff like thing is the the costs [84:50] are high and the rewards are high yeah [84:52] uh if you go gradually you're going to [84:53] get a small smaller amount of gain you [84:56] know by the year if you run off a cliff [84:58] you can have a really rough ride but you [85:00] might come out with a lot of positives [85:03] and your skill of quitting it reminds [85:06] me if people come to me I try to give [85:08] them every all the value in one session [85:11] like hear this and go away all right [85:16] take notes if you don't really want to [85:19] do something and you don't really have [85:23] to do something [85:25] don't do [85:26] it now give me my money and [85:30] go because that's the whole thing if you [85:32] don't want to do something and you don't [85:34] have to do it don't do it and that's a [85:37] really quick way to find out what you do [85:39] want what if you don't want to do it but [85:43] there's something telling you that you [85:44] have to so it could be like a horrible [85:46] work meeting or that that then you've [85:48] been invited to with that person which [85:50] you don't particularly like anyway that [85:52] baby shower you don't want to go to so I [85:54] like you have to get more and more [85:57] attentive to what's going on inside and [86:00] I I think some form of meditation [86:02] whether it's expressive writing or [86:05] painting or just sitting still is very [86:07] helpful at noticing these fine details [86:10] and and there's I'm kind of joking when [86:13] I say if you don't want to do it you [86:14] don't have to do it don't do it but [86:17] ultimately that's true and the way you [86:19] decide there are things that you don't [86:21] want to do but you actually do have to [86:25] do them not because people want you to [86:28] but because you have to do them and the [86:31] way I experienced that um I like to [86:35] describe it with something the Buddha [86:36] used to say a lot and that was whereever [86:40] you find a body of water you can know if [86:43] it's the sea because the sea always [86:45] tastes of salt and wherever you find [86:49] Enlightenment Awakening your own truth [86:52] your path you you can always recognize [86:55] it no matter what form it takes because [86:56] Enlightenment always tastes of [87:00] Freedom he did not say happiness he did [87:03] not say benefit he did not say you know [87:07] Mania true love he said [87:10] freedom and when you know like I did not [87:14] want to meet with my parents for example [87:17] in my therapist's office I was terrified [87:20] of both of them um and of the whole [87:23] community my therapist could have been [87:25] run out of business in the town we lived [87:27] in [87:29] um but if I had not done it I would not [87:33] have been as [87:34] free so I had to do [87:38] it but that's a really different I have [87:41] to do it than my mother really really [87:44] would be happier if I became a [87:48] doctor Freedom yeah what is freedom in [87:52] that definition of the word when I asked [87:54] you what your body felt when you started [87:57] paying attention to it and you said it [87:59] relaxed it's a sense [88:02] of I also mentioned flow um which is the [88:07] sense of being [88:10] completely almost the sense of self- [88:12] Disappearing and being in complete [88:16] harmony with something that is moving [88:17] through the world um my undergraduate [88:20] degree is in Chinese and so I know I [88:23] found out about dosm earlier in my life [88:25] and it's not really a religion the way [88:28] we would think of it it's the sense that [88:30] there is an energy that flows through [88:33] nature and that if you don't fight it [88:37] you [88:38] will you will live the life you were [88:40] meant to live and the sense of letting [88:43] go of everything else except letting [88:46] that thing work with you and through you [88:49] that to me is freedom when it comes to [88:52] food I trust my gut and I trust Zoe a [88:55] business I'm an investor in and today's [88:57] sponsor of this podcast all the [88:58] nutritionists I've spoken to have [88:59] highlighted just how misleading [89:01] information is out there when it comes [89:02] to food take healthy Halos the claims [89:04] you see on packaging that say things [89:06] like low sugar and nothing artificial [89:09] are often a sign of foods to avoid have [89:11] you ever noticed a health claim on fresh [89:13] fruit you probably get my point [89:14] understandably there's loads of distrust [89:17] out there who should you turn to for [89:18] accurate information I use Zoe which is [89:21] backed by one of the world's largest [89:23] microbiome databases and most [89:25] scientifically Advanced atome gut health [89:27] tests Zoe gives you proven science [89:29] whenever you need it as a Zoe member [89:31] you'll get an atome test kit and [89:33] personalized nutrition program to help [89:35] you make smarter food choices that [89:36] support your gut to sign up visit [89:38] zoe.com and use my code Steven 10 for [89:42] 10% off your membership that's zoe.com [89:44] code step10 trust your gut trust Zoe [89:49] from the person you were at what 32 [89:52] years old just before 32 years years old [89:54] you saying well through throughout your [89:55] teenagers teenage years to the person [89:57] you are [89:58] now how radical is the difference so if [90:01] I met that 19 year [90:04] olds teenager and she sat down here I [90:08] just went back for the first time in [90:09] years I I had a gig in Boston so I went [90:12] back to Cambridge which is next to it [90:14] and I went with my wife um something [90:17] that couldn't have happened when I was [90:19] 17 I had the sense of tapping my younger [90:22] self on the shoulder and [90:27] saying I am I am from your future and I [90:31] can tell you with 100% [90:34] certainty that it is possible for you to [90:37] live in a state of almost continuous joy [90:40] and that you can get there without dying [90:43] you can get there in fact your job in [90:46] this world is to find a way to live in a [90:49] state of continuous Joy without dying [90:54] and if she turned to you and said Dr [90:57] Martha back what is step one what would [91:00] you say to her I would [91:03] say sit down with [91:06] yourself and find a part of you that can [91:08] say to your suffering which is [91:11] huge I love you it'll be okay I'm right [91:15] here and that's something I call it kind [91:18] internal selft talk and the acronym is [91:21] kissed and I didn't tell anyone about it [91:23] for DEC it's because it's so corny [91:25] sounding but that one thing in Tibetan [91:28] Buddhism they might call it the basis of [91:30] loving [91:31] kindness for years sometimes the monks [91:35] who are trained there and the nuns will [91:38] sit in meditation for days and days and [91:40] do nothing but offer kindness to [91:42] themselves themselves yeah it has to [91:45] start that way so you sit with your [91:47] miserable self and you say I would sit [91:50] with her and I would say maybe well [91:54] may you be happy may you be free from [91:58] suffering may you feel safe and [92:01] protected may you live with ease and as [92:05] I offer her those wishes I become the [92:08] part of myself that is [92:11] real because the suffering is the part [92:13] of the dream [92:14] world and the reality is infinitely [92:18] loving I [92:20] mean and intelligent Beyond so far [92:24] beyond our silly monkey [92:26] minds and we can align ourselves with [92:29] that and it's like a a Lifeline that I [92:32] could throw my younger self sometimes I [92:34] wonder if I [92:37] did the suffering is part of the dream [92:39] world oh yeah when you said that are you [92:42] referring to the the anxiety spiral and [92:44] those kinds of things oh yeah but also [92:46] the whole thing about we're all going to [92:48] die and everything's awful and um what [92:51] point is there to it anyway we you know [92:53] you suffering is certain and Death is [92:55] certain why don't we just get off the [92:56] bus now that kind of [93:00] thing that's that's the dream you know [93:03] that that everybody who's had the [93:05] Awakening [93:07] experience Dante said it Shakespeare [93:09] said it they're like we are such stuff [93:11] as dreams are made of Dante in the last [93:14] part of the Divine Comedy which I [93:16] believe is his description of his own [93:18] Enlightenment he looks back at the earth [93:21] once he's learned to love himself [93:24] and he calls it the little threshing [93:26] floor that so incites our savagery it's [93:30] nothing compared now he's with the [93:32] source of love in paradise and he [93:36] describes it as a rose unfolding and [93:38] unfolding and producing light and in [93:41] Asia the it's a Lotus same thing a many [93:43] petal flower that keeps opening and [93:45] opening very similar [93:48] imagery [93:50] and that's I I kind of feel that way [93:54] when you mentioned the part of me that [93:55] used to be so unhappy it's like oh [94:00] yeah yeah she thought that was [94:04] real but I [94:06] haven't and it is real the way a video [94:09] game is [94:10] real it's something that we I believe [94:13] that con our Consciousness projects this [94:15] life of misery and and even materiality [94:19] I happen to think [94:21] that Ma matter is not Consciousness is [94:24] not made by matter matter is made by [94:26] Consciousness and Consciousness is [94:28] primary and nobody has the vaguest clue [94:30] what Consciousness actually is but we [94:33] have it so it must exist and that was [94:36] that was what deart said he actually we [94:38] say he said Cojo goome I think therefore [94:41] I am he actually said I don't know [94:44] anything but I doubt everything and the [94:48] fact that I doubt means that I'm [94:50] thinking so I must exist he said Doo [94:52] cojito AOS I doubt therefore I think [94:56] therefore I am so when you get to this [94:59] place where you're willing to let your [95:01] mind go wide [95:03] open not closed around oh there's an [95:05] afterlife where we sit on clouds and no [95:09] I have no idea what happens when we die [95:12] but my mind is [95:14] open and the mind we were the minds we [95:19] are taught to have by this culture are [95:21] closed like Fists whether it's around a [95:25] religion [95:27] or a sort of atheistic science because [95:30] real science has to be open to the [95:32] mystery people experience it you can't [95:34] just rule that [95:36] out [95:38] so yeah I think that what we're [95:41] experiencing is a real projection of [95:43] Consciousness but I think Consciousness [95:46] is something much vaster and more [95:50] infinite and enduring than matter [95:55] one of the things you talked about was [95:56] when you saw the light um during that [95:59] surgery like when people hear you say [96:00] you saw a light during surgery people [96:02] think well you're on morphine or [96:03] something yeah were you on morphine uh I [96:06] don't remember exactly which anesthesia [96:08] they is but I [96:09] asked so I'm in [96:11] surgery [96:13] um they're operating on me I look around [96:17] I sit up and then I think why am I [96:19] sitting up I'm having surgery I look [96:20] down there's my body they're operating [96:22] on it and I was like this is weird so I [96:24] lay back down and there were bright [96:27] surgical lights and the light that [96:28] appeared between them was just small at [96:32] first like a golf ball and it was they [96:35] they tell us we only see a trillionth of [96:38] the available light spectrum H we only [96:41] see the a trillionth of the colors that [96:43] we could that [96:45] exist and I think I could see trillions [96:49] more colors than I'd ever seen before [96:51] and it was absolutely [96:54] mesmerizing you could not you would [96:56] never want to look away from it and then [96:59] it got bigger in my case and it touched [97:03] my body and the this feeling of absolute [97:07] Exquisite [97:09] Joy just coursed through me and [97:14] um and it was the realest thing I'd ever [97:17] seen so much realer than the body that [97:20] was being operated on and and um [97:24] it was laughing with joy and I was [97:26] laughing with joy and I started to cry [97:29] because I was it was pure relief pure [97:31] happiness and the surgeons noticed tears [97:35] coming out of my eyes and they thought I [97:37] could feel the surgery and that the [97:39] anesthesia wasn't strong enough so they [97:41] were like oh my God oh my God she's [97:42] feeling this and the anesthesiologist [97:45] was freaked out um and then I really [97:48] didn't notice the rest cuz I was busy [97:51] with other things but the moment I woke [97:53] up I was like bring me the [97:55] anesthesiologist please actually I [97:58] couldn't stop crying for hours because I [98:00] loved everyone so much and I was just [98:02] like everybody that was there there was [98:03] a janitor I was like I love you so much [98:08] um so they brought me the [98:10] anesthesiologist and he was he seemed [98:13] terrified which I didn't understand now [98:15] I do he was afraid that he'd done [98:17] something wrong because so I said what [98:19] did you give me what are the side [98:21] effects what happens to people under [98:22] this surgery what goes on and he said he [98:26] said just tell me what [98:29] happened and I said what do you mean and [98:31] he said well I was going to give you [98:32] more medication and then a voice said [98:35] don't do that she's crying because she's [98:38] happy and he said I just listen to it [98:41] and I don't know [98:42] why and he was like did I do the right [98:45] thing and so I told him a little bit it [98:48] was still I never thought I'd tell [98:50] anyone this story I've ended up telling [98:52] it over and over um and the memory of it [98:55] never Fades at all it's not like a [98:57] typical memory and and he said do you [99:01] know how many times this has happened to [99:03] me in 33 years of giving people [99:05] anesthesia I said how many and he said [99:08] once and then he gave me a kiss on the [99:10] forehead and went away so I don't think [99:13] it was a drug effect why truth emerged [99:16] from that because you say from what I've [99:18] understood that you you vowed not to lie [99:21] yeah in any way like not with my actions [99:24] not with even my facial expressions and [99:27] the reason [99:29] was I had heard the truth will set you [99:31] free i' had studied so many wisdom [99:33] Traditions looking everywhere for a [99:35] reason not to commit suicide I mean I [99:37] had really looked I knew a lot of [99:42] religious texts philosophical texts I [99:44] had done my homework and over and over [99:49] and over and over it said the truth will [99:50] set you free I was like in Mormonism [99:54] they said the truth is what we've [99:55] written down here and it was bogus and [99:58] phony and I was like no um but the light [100:03] was far more true than anything else I'd [100:07] ever experienced it was far more real so [100:10] I was like okay if truth takes me there [100:13] and it told me not verbally but it said [100:16] look you've been thinking that you could [100:19] kill yourself and feel better and I am [100:22] telling you that you are meant to learn [100:24] to feel this way the way you feel with [100:26] me [100:28] now when you're alive always so go and [100:31] do that and what I really did was I made [100:35] it wasn't even a choice it was [100:38] a it was a absolute Obsession I would [100:43] not live in such a way that I was not [100:46] conscious of the presence of that light [100:50] and that meant every time I lied you [100:52] felt help week you got when you just [100:54] said something that wasn't true I felt [100:55] it withdraw or myself it you can't [100:59] withdraw from it it's everywhere I [101:00] believe but I felt myself less conscious [101:03] of it I was like okay that's not going [101:05] to work so I decided what I'm going to [101:08] do is I'm just going to say what's real [101:10] do what's real if a thought comes in [101:12] that feels like it's pulling me away [101:14] from that light I will question that [101:16] thought it can't be real it doesn't Set [101:18] Me Free it doesn't bring me into that [101:21] I'm going to I'm going to just in [101:23] investigate [101:25] everything until I find what feels [101:28] truest to me knowing by the way that as [101:31] one of my favorite Indian sages says the [101:34] only true statement the mind can make is [101:37] I do not know because we could be [101:41] dreaming all this we could be fed [101:43] misinformation we could be deep faked I [101:45] don't know any I mean with this little [101:46] monkey [101:48] brain I don't [101:50] know but in Asia they have this concept [101:53] of don't know mind where the mind is [101:56] wide open and not clenched around [101:59] anything and then you can experience a [102:01] sort of it's the humility of [102:04] surrendering your Primacy the Primacy of [102:06] human intelligence to something so much [102:11] bigger and still being human and having [102:14] that be a good thing but just not [102:16] mistaking it for [102:19] godhood as part of you stepping in when [102:22] you step into your truth so you the the [102:24] body knows from what you've said the [102:27] body has a lives in a better State a [102:30] less anxious State I imagine oh yeah you [102:32] know what it is when people think about [102:34] stepping into their truth they the [102:35] reason they probably don't is because [102:37] there's consequence to that or at least [102:38] there's [102:39] apparent yes shortterm apparent [102:42] consequence I might lose my [102:43] job when people think of Truth they [102:45] think of like speaking your mind in in [102:47] the modern world you speak your mind you [102:48] might lose everything well you you ask [102:51] yourself is it kind is it true is it [102:53] necessary so you don't say every little [102:55] thing that crosses your mind and you [102:57] don't do it in ways that are unkind but [102:59] yes you may feel that you know I felt I [103:02] had to formally leave Mormonism which to [103:04] my entire Community o of of childhood [103:08] and young adulthood was the sin worse [103:11] than murder I was going to Outer [103:13] Darkness it was Absolut I used to walk [103:16] down the street once I'd done this and [103:18] people would physically turn their backs [103:20] friends right so but I had to so that [103:25] was a place where yes there was a huge [103:28] consequence a and there will be I sort [103:32] of position it as your true nature [103:33] versus culture and by culture I mean [103:35] anything from a couple's culture to a [103:37] family culture to a religious to ethnic [103:40] National whatever if you serve your true [103:43] nature there will come a time when you [103:46] become countercultural you do something [103:48] that is not what your parents approved [103:50] of or it's not what your religion taught [103:53] um how do you know what your true nature [103:56] is is there such an exercise one can go [103:57] through to figure it out yeah the [103:59] absence of all suffering psychological [104:02] suffering okay so okay so the absence of [104:06] all psychological suffering is my true [104:10] nature so is my psychological suffering [104:12] caused by [104:14] being not in my true nature yeah it's [104:17] caused by innocently [104:20] believing lies you were taught by one of [104:23] two [104:24] forces socialization or trauma trauma [104:28] tells you oh my God everything's [104:29] dangerous all the time and it's gets [104:31] lodged in the brain and socialization [104:34] says things like you're not good enough [104:37] you should try harder that was a bad [104:38] choice you've got to please your mother [104:40] all kinds of things we all have them and [104:42] if if you want to please your mother and [104:44] you have that it's great if you're true [104:47] nature and your culture go together [104:49] there's no conflict like I loved School [104:52] my true nature natur fit that culture [104:55] but then my oldest child who's brilliant [104:59] it did not fit that child's culture and [105:02] yet I forced my kid to go through school [105:04] and we've talked about a lot since I [105:05] wish I hadn't done that I was young I [105:08] had my kids young [105:10] and I forced my child to conform with a [105:15] culture that went against her true [105:16] nature [105:18] and it it caused a lot of suffering you [105:23] suffer oh still yeah I was really really [105:26] kind of as deeply sad after the last [105:29] American [105:30] election um deeply sad but never afraid [105:35] anymore not anxious and and even you [105:39] know the grieving process when you lose [105:41] someone you're going to grieve deeply [105:44] and that's a sequence of you know denial [105:47] anger bargaining sadness there's kind of [105:50] a they put him in a list uh El Abeth [105:53] Kubler Ross put them in a list of things [105:55] you experience when you lose someone or [105:57] you're going to die and um it's actually [106:01] more like being in a cement mixer it [106:03] just all happens at once but I actually [106:06] wouldn't count that as suffering it is a [106:10] process a Peruvian Shaman once told me [106:15] compassion is the evolution of [106:17] Consciousness in the healing of trauma [106:20] and the healing of trauma is the [106:21] grieving process [106:23] so if you're grieving I would sit with [106:25] you and I would bring you you know warm [106:29] drinks and put a blanket around you and [106:31] I would cry with you and feel with [106:36] you and love [106:38] you but that's not the same to me as [106:40] psychological suffering which is that [106:43] anguished feeling of I just don't want [106:45] to be here this is [106:48] bad as part of you stepping into your [106:50] truth you realized that the relationship [106:53] you were in with your husband at the [106:54] time [106:55] mhm was not the relationship you wanted [106:59] no um he was gay and trying so hard not [107:03] to be gay um and when he was Mormon so [107:06] it was very convenient for me because I [107:08] was I I was in love with him very much [107:11] in love I and I think he really really [107:12] loved me too I know he did we got [107:14] married when I was 20 we were we were [107:16] delivered by the same obstetrician like [107:18] we had a very similar life path and then [107:20] we both went to Harvard which was very [107:23] unusual for people from our hometown so [107:25] we had so much in common and we were [107:27] best friends and um loved each other [107:30] deeply and he was trying desperately not [107:32] to be gay I wasn't conscious of being [107:35] gay because I wasn't conscious of [107:37] anything much I was so disassociated [107:40] because of sexual abuse that I just [107:43] didn't know where I stood he just made [107:45] me feel safe and I loved that um but [107:49] then when we started questioning [107:51] Mormonism and the sexual abuse came up [107:53] and everything I was just and even [107:55] before that it was really [107:57] obvious that I [108:00] said when I was pregnant with my son I [108:02] started having psychic experiences I'm [108:05] sorry they just happened I had to allow [108:08] them I was getting my doctorate at [108:11] Harvard and now I was having psychic [108:12] flashes what do you do with that you [108:14] either throw it away which means [108:16] throwing away the evidence the data or [108:19] you blow your mind open and one of the [108:22] things that happened was I started to be [108:23] able to see what was happening with [108:25] people I loved when I wasn't there just [108:27] in flashes but very verifiable I could [108:31] call them and do it and when that would [108:33] happen my husband was traveling a lot [108:36] and I just knew he was gay and I knew [108:40] that's what was right for him and that [108:42] his Joy was part of homosexuality and [108:47] and he was still quite [108:49] religious and wanted to be a good boy [108:51] the way he'd been taught to be and so I [108:53] think he went through a lot of Anguish I [108:55] know he did we talked about it and it [108:58] wasn't until we both left the church [109:02] that I I said you know I'm gay you're [109:07] gay why don't we just be gay and um and [109:11] so he started dating men and I fell in [109:14] love with a woman and I'm still with her [109:18] and eight years [109:21] ago as I said [109:23] you go into countercultural things when [109:25] you follow your truth um another woman [109:29] who was visiting us the place where we [109:31] were living the three of us started [109:32] hanging out and we could not stop [109:34] hanging out with each other and it's [109:36] very weird for three people to all fall [109:38] in love with each other but that's what [109:40] happened eight years ago and it was [109:42] so it's a good thing we were living out [109:44] in the forest because the cultural [109:46] pressures against that are huge but I we [109:48] were living in a national forest there [109:50] were no people around and it was just [109:52] like well okay then this feels [109:55] awesome and eight nine years later it [109:57] still feels awesome there really is [110:00] something to that there really is [110:01] something to this idea that when you [110:03] follow your truth you'll live a [110:05] countercultural life yeah do you know [110:07] how embarrassing it is for me to sit and [110:09] tell people yeah not only am I gay but I [110:11] have two partners not I don't think it's [110:13] embarrassing I've Got Friends that I've [110:14] got a good friend of mine that's um uh [110:17] that is in married but also in love with [110:23] another couple so they're they're like a [110:25] four and they like raise the kids [110:27] together and stuff and yeah I mean [110:31] there's nothing it's it's this sounds so [110:33] strange to say but for me to me it's [110:35] actually quite inspiring because it must [110:37] take a lot [110:39] of something to accept that people are [110:43] going to be judgmental and to do it [110:45] anyway yeah I'm like oh God I wish I had [110:47] the like if that's how I felt would I be [110:50] the type of person that would be strong [110:52] enough to follow that feeling if that's [110:54] like how I felt or would I just bat the [110:56] feeling away I actually think I'd bat [110:58] the feeling away and I don't like that [110:59] about myself because of because of [111:01] consequence and the consequence for me [111:03] would be in my head it would be quite [111:04] grave yeah because you're a public [111:06] figure so it's going to be written about [111:08] everywhere and people are going to think [111:09] they're going to Tweet me all day saying [111:11] Steve's dating five people or whatever [111:13] oh when this happened when I realized [111:15] when the three of us realized we were [111:16] actually f for for several weeks we were [111:18] like this is normal right it's very [111:20] normal for three people to sit very [111:22] close together on the same couch and [111:23] talk for hours um and then finally I was [111:27] like oh oh my God I'm in love with both [111:31] of you and they were like yeah we're [111:33] we're all in love with both of each [111:34] other and I I said it's fine for you too [111:38] I'm on an Integrity cleanse and I have [111:40] to tell the truth all the time to a lot [111:42] of [111:43] people um but the it was like being hit [111:47] by a train the joy that came with that I [111:50] remember Karen uh my original partner [111:53] who'd been with me for like 22 years at [111:55] the time um she came to me and she sat [111:57] me down and she said I've been I've been [112:00] spending a lot of time with [112:01] Rowan um who's this other lady yeah this [112:04] this riter from Australia who had come [112:06] to do some work in the US and she was [112:10] staying with us for a while but not with [112:12] us with some other people on a [112:13] neighboring property and Karen said yeah [112:16] we've been hanging out and I I just um [112:18] I'm having very very strong feelings [112:21] it's like it's kind of like like a fire [112:23] hose of love and I don't know if it's [112:25] like maybe spiritual or and I remember [112:28] just smiling at her the way you do with [112:30] your friends when they were in love and [112:32] going you're in love with her and I [112:35] looked inside myself [112:37] for any fear any anger any jealousy [112:41] nothing there was it was like an [112:44] explosion of pure joy just Joy Beyond [112:49] Joy Beyond joy and I was like this is [112:51] amazing does she feel the same way about [112:53] you bring her tell her to come here [112:56] let's let's all get to know each other [112:57] this is awesome I'll move into the guest [113:00] room and you guys can to have the master [113:01] bedroom and there will be more love in [113:03] this [113:04] house and that's just how it felt and [113:07] that's how it's felt to me ever since [113:10] and that's my alternative to feeling [113:16] suicidal Ro calls it um Feeling Good by [113:21] looking weird [113:23] H and is that how it's been how many [113:26] years now four years did you say so [113:28] eight years [113:30] wow is it [113:32] difficult it's like now I just think [113:35] about how do couples do it and it's like [113:36] a two-legged stool how would that even [113:38] work like you need the balance of three [113:42] like if somebody gets in an argument [113:44] who's the referee and a like how do you [113:47] even do that with two people so it very [113:50] quickly it felt so [113:53] natural you have to communicate a lot [113:56] and there is one of the things is none [113:59] of us is capable of lying we just we're [114:02] out of practice I I don't think either [114:04] of them ever had a tendency to lie to [114:06] themselves or anyone else so you're [114:09] always telling each other the truth and [114:10] there's not there's a weird kind of [114:13] Harmony among people who are forming [114:17] Community with total authenticity and [114:20] and [114:21] openness we talked earlier on about [114:23] meaning and purpose you said the [114:24] billionaires when they come to you but [114:25] really anyone that comes to you is all [114:27] trying to figure [114:29] out their path in life their their [114:32] meaning yeah their purpose it's a big [114:35] big [114:36] question what are the lies we're sold [114:39] about finding our purpose because I have [114:40] a lot of kids in my DMs that DM me and [114:43] say Steve I can't find my passion or I [114:45] can't find my purpose or I can't and I [114:47] never really know what to say to them um [114:50] I think one thing I wrote In one of my [114:52] books a long time ago was that I [114:55] realized this when I was pregnant with [114:57] my son and I realized he would have Down [114:59] syndrome and be intellectually delayed [115:02] and I thought what is the meaning of his [115:03] life what is the purpose of his life and [115:06] then somehow I [115:08] realized um because of my love for him [115:11] that the meaning of life is not what [115:12] happens to people the meaning of life [115:15] the per your purpose in life is what [115:17] happens between people so it's in the [115:20] meeting you have a home in South Africa [115:23] so you know about Ubuntu yeah bought the [115:25] house this year so I mean I've been [115:27] working a lot and uh it's only really at [115:29] the end of the year that I get to go [115:31] there so I don't I don't really know [115:32] South Africa well yet well the concept [115:34] of Ubuntu I think is is dominant [115:36] throughout a lot of Africa um and it [115:39] mean there's no English translation and [115:41] it is completely the opposite of our [115:44] cultural [115:46] individualism and the meaning of Ubuntu [115:48] is basically I am me because we are us I [115:53] am fundamentally different because I [115:55] know you and you matter to me and I used [115:59] to uh be confused in South Africa [116:03] because I knew there were a lot of AIDS [116:04] orphans and I never saw them on the [116:06] streets or anything and then I realized [116:09] that Ubuntu is a real practical thing [116:11] there and that the children who are left [116:14] are absorbed into Community by people [116:16] who may have nothing except [116:19] Ubuntu and Ubuntu they um [116:23] there's a Chinese proverb that says if [116:24] you want to go fast go alone if you want [116:28] to go far go together so we've been [116:31] going really fast in this culture fast [116:34] toward our own [116:35] destruction I am me because because I am [116:39] because we are is the closest thing you [116:42] can say to it but conceptually it [116:44] means the the space between us so that's [116:48] another thing you can do an exercise you [116:50] can do to get into your right hemisphere [116:51] so so we're looking at each other but if [116:53] you look instead of without moving your [116:56] eyes look at the distance between [116:58] us look at the openness between [117:08] us you feel how it changes your gaze [117:11] yeah how it changes your [117:13] heartbeat this is how people like Carl [117:18] Yung the psychologist had a dear friend [117:21] who was a Pueblo Indian and he said what [117:24] do you really think of us anglos and he [117:25] said we think you're [117:27] insane and he said why and this guy's [117:30] name was Chief Mountain Lake he said [117:32] you're always staring at things and yet [117:35] you never see each other you never see [117:37] what's between you and our eyes are soft [117:42] and yours are hard and when you and I [117:45] just did that my whole body went into a [117:49] state of [117:53] it's like the light you know it's like [117:55] that light is more is I'm more conscious [117:57] of it when I'm looking at the space [117:59] between us and I feel you MH I don't [118:02] just see you I felt like my heart rate [118:04] dropped yeah so in mind that's kind of [118:06] how I just felt really calm yeah and I [118:08] was thinking about I was trying to look [118:09] at the space in between yeah so I'm [118:12] trying right now to start building [118:13] communities of Ubuntu I I started one [118:15] online just to Foster people's [118:18] creativity and help them move into this [118:20] state of being and it's called Wilder [118:23] because when we were [118:25] Wilder that's how we looked at each [118:27] other that's how your dog and your cat [118:29] look at you that's why we love being [118:31] with them because they look at us and [118:33] they look at the space between us and [118:35] their eyes are [118:37] soft and if there's a fly that goes by [118:39] they'll get [118:41] sharp and that's the hunting Instinct [118:43] but then when they're looking at [118:45] something they love they're looking at [118:46] the whole space and feeling each other [118:52] so someone sendss me a DM and says I [118:55] can't find my purpose in life what do [118:58] you suggest I [118:59] respond it's say first of [119:02] all sit down and offer love to the part [119:05] of you that's in so much stress because [119:07] you can't find your purpose that's a [119:08] horrible feeling MH you know your [119:12] purpose but you can't find it because [119:15] it's being drowned out by what you've [119:16] been taught and that hurts and I'm [119:20] really sorry because I know that pain go [119:23] and sit down or find a friend find [119:25] someone trustworthy find community and [119:29] tell them what me Mary Oliver says tell [119:32] me about despair yours and I will tell [119:36] you mine and she talks about the wild [119:39] geese announcing your place in the [119:41] family of things when you can [119:44] communicate your Despair and feel heard [119:47] and feel [119:49] connected and what happens between [119:51] people [119:52] will fill in the gaps in your knowledge [119:55] and you'll realize [119:57] ah my purpose is where my deep gladness [120:01] and the world's deep hunger [120:04] meet and I can feel that when I love [120:08] when I and it love is not like goopy [120:10] gipi it's my deep gladness yeah that's [120:14] from Fredick bner who was a theologian [120:16] German Theologian he said your mission [120:18] is like in life is where your deep [120:20] gladness and the world's deep hunger [120:24] meet so what you just described a young [120:27] person reaching out to you and saying [120:30] what is my purpose and you are asking [120:34] yourself what do I say so you're looking [120:37] at the relationship between this young [120:40] person and you and you are in Ubuntu [120:43] you're looking at the space between you [120:45] and your deep [120:47] gladness is [120:49] to heal the scars and wound wounds in [120:53] this person you've never met but who is [120:56] deeply hungry for something the culture [120:59] is not giving him or her or [121:01] them that's your deep gladness and their [121:04] deep [121:05] hunger and you've been serving that [121:09] really well like so much better than [121:12] most people I've met in my [121:14] life and by Deep gladness what I how I [121:18] interpreted that was the thing that [121:20] makes me happy or the thing that makes [121:21] me feel good yeah that's kind of an it's [121:25] kind of people could take that a number [121:27] of different ways this is deep gladness [121:29] it's something you feel in in your [121:31] viscera it's something it's [121:35] like the most here's another way to get [121:38] into it imagine a time when you were [121:40] with a creature you loved and it's [121:42] probably easier if it was an animal than [121:44] if it was a person it was a person it [121:46] has to be a baby so somebody who [121:48] couldn't talk my son can't really talk [121:51] so I get this with him a lot and [121:54] remember a time when you relaxed [121:56] completely into the presence of this [121:59] other being and the cat was purring on [122:01] your chest or the dog had his head on [122:03] your lap and there was no pressure to do [122:07] anything you're being [122:10] human with this other being in a space [122:14] that you have created that we've all [122:16] created with our Consciousness for the [122:19] joy of its beauty and its darkness and [122:21] its light [122:23] and there's [122:26] just Psalm [122:28] 46 says it says the name of God like six [122:32] different ways be still and know that I [122:34] am God be is a name for God Stillness is [122:40] a name for God no is a name for God I am [122:46] is a name for God and God is a name for [122:50] God [122:52] and when [122:55] you when you feel all of that as what [123:00] you fundamentally are and it's [123:03] connecting with another [123:05] person the gladness doesn't even touch [123:08] it no word can touch it but it's two [123:12] aspects of a Consciousness that thought [123:14] they were separate joining hands and [123:16] meeting each other again and the reunion [123:18] is overwhelmingly [123:23] beautiful relief [123:26] Joy gladness light all of [123:31] it how has the internet messed this all [123:33] up it's messed it up and it's made it [123:35] possible you know like it's messed it up [123:39] horribly by feeding on our culture's [123:42] obsession with those left hemisphere [123:44] what bleeds leads right we have that [123:46] negativity bias and what people want to [123:48] do is monetize their position on the [123:50] internet and the best way to monetize [123:52] your position is to get the Lion's Share [123:54] of attention and whatever gets the [123:56] Lion's Share of attention is a cobra [123:59] versus a puppy so there's uh there's a [124:03] psychological and monetary pressure [124:05] always pushing the internet to frighten [124:08] us more or to make us more angry at each [124:11] other to divide and polarize us it's [124:13] like this left hemisphere weapon that [124:15] has just gone [124:16] berserk and so like in America there are [124:19] these pockets of such extremely polar [124:21] ized [124:22] political belief systems that all have [124:25] their own information sets and I don't [124:27] know what the hell's true um but they [124:30] all believe absolutely the way the left [124:32] hemisphere believes there's no open [124:35] mind on the other [124:37] hand you know when the brain wakes up [124:41] when it has the Awakening experience it [124:43] the fruit ripens and ripens and then it [124:46] falls okay so that I think may be this [124:49] epigenetic switch going on in the brain [124:52] and it flashes to the whole brain and [124:54] changes [124:56] everything and I like to think of [124:58] fractals the different units of of [125:01] nature that tend to reproduce at larger [125:03] sizes like a twig is like a branch is [125:05] like the trunk of a tree so our brains [125:08] may be like us [125:11] this our neocortex is very thin it's [125:14] just this thin surface of cells around [125:17] the surface of the brain very very [125:19] interactive and we are kind of like that [125:22] we're running around the surface of a [125:24] sphere being very very interactive and [125:25] teaching each other ideas and if just [125:27] one person awakens you know Buddha was [125:31] awake Jesus was [125:34] awake and Buddha never tried to save [125:36] anybody but himself you know but other [125:40] Minds caught [125:43] that that configuration they switched [125:47] on and because [125:51] because we have the [125:53] internet what used to take a whole [125:56] national government to do to communicate [125:58] with everyone in the [125:59] world could happen from like a poor kid [126:05] in Mal Malawi who suddenly awakened and [126:09] was able to put that into a [126:11] message um or you know Malala youf like [126:16] everyone knows what this 15-year-old [126:17] girl went through even though the [126:20] information would have been suppressed [126:21] by the talibon if they could have done [126:23] it but they can't do it [126:24] anymore so one awakened person now has [126:29] the potential to touch the lives of [126:32] literally everyone virtually for free do [126:36] you interact with the internet much I do [126:39] um and I know that I am shaping an [126:42] algorithm that is totally unrealistic [126:44] because my My World online is primarily [126:49] otter I loves me and Otter [126:52] and but like it's it's all the examples [126:56] of love and joy that occur between [126:58] people and I and then I look at the [127:00] headlines and I'm like yeah yeah yeah [127:02] but here you know when I first went to [127:03] Africa I'd heard it's the Dark Continent [127:06] everything is bad Ebola War the Congo [127:09] all these terrible things the Heart of [127:12] Darkness and then I went there and [127:15] realized that for every horrible thing [127:16] that legitimately does happen in that [127:19] place there are maybe a thousand acts of [127:23] completely Selfless [127:25] Love [127:27] I I would walk around I every time I go [127:30] there I think I look at the people who [127:33] have been colonized you know the [127:35] original people and I think I'm white if [127:38] I were you I'd be really mad at me like [127:41] why and yet I was there we had my um [127:45] wife had a little girl a few years ago [127:48] she's a bit younger than I am and she [127:50] got sick in the air port in Johannesburg [127:53] really sick and she was barfing [127:56] everywhere and we were just pushing the [127:57] stroller from one tourist store we'd get [127:59] a bunch of t-shirts and she'd throw up [128:01] on that and we'd put her in another one [128:03] and throw the first one away and [128:06] people came running to us from the [128:09] different stores and they were from you [128:11] know there are 11 different national [128:12] languages there there were people from [128:14] different tribal [128:17] legacies and instead of running away [128:19] from a vomiting child [128:22] they ran toward us with everything they [128:24] could find to help someone lit a fire [128:26] and sterilized a spoon someone ran down [128:29] the airport to the only Pharmacy to get [128:32] the right medication and ran back with [128:33] it people were holding the vomit stained [128:36] clo I mean these were people we had [128:38] never [128:39] met and this was the place I'd been [128:42] afraid of because I had let myself [128:44] believe the stories that polarized me [128:46] and said oh that's a dark scary place it [128:50] every place is dark and scary and [128:52] everywhere there are human beings there [128:54] is the capacity for [128:56] Ubuntu [128:59] and what there is to [129:02] love the part of us that loves is [129:04] infinitely more powerful than the part [129:06] of us that [129:11] doesn't [129:12] amen what is the um what is the most [129:16] important [129:17] thing in your new book beyond anxiety [129:20] curiosity creativity and finding your [129:22] life's purpose that we haven't talked [129:24] about [129:27] yet I would [129:31] say it's I wish I could I don't know how [129:35] to get it how to say this clearly enough [129:39] and I've said it [129:40] here but what is the most important [129:43] thing that anyone listening to this you [129:47] specifically right now wherever you are [129:51] and I just mentioned Mary Oliver is the [129:52] wild geese one of the things she says no [129:55] matter who you are no matter how lonely [129:58] no whoever you are no matter how lonely [130:02] the world offers itself to your [130:05] imagination you are part of the family [130:07] of things so whoever hears this you [130:11] specifically in your essence you are [130:15] safe no matter what it looks like you [130:19] are fundamental mentally going to be [130:23] okay I [130:29] promise that's [130:35] it Dr Martha backck we have a closing [130:38] tradition on the podcast where the last [130:39] guest leaves a question for the next [130:40] guest not knowing who they're leaving [130:42] the question for okay and the question [130:45] that has been left for you is o [130:52] this is a tricky [130:54] [Music] [130:57] one and you can interpret this however [130:59] you wish okay what do you think [131:01] separates a great story from just a good [131:05] story [131:07] easy in a good story bad things happen [131:11] to good people in a great story bad [131:13] things happen to [131:16] Heroes cuz there's always conflict [131:21] and there's [131:23] always [131:25] suffering and that can be just like oh [131:28] that was awful but the great Stories the [131:31] ones we keep telling are the ones where [131:34] the person who would be a victim becomes [131:36] a Creator who says I'm not going to stay [131:39] in fear I'm going to make something from [131:42] this and they F they stand up and they [131:45] go out on an [131:47] adventure and what looks like it could [131:49] have been a tragedy becomes an adventure [131:51] Venture that's what Shakespeare did at [131:53] the end of his life I was taught at [131:54] Harvard that he wrote the four Great [131:57] tragedies where everything ends in [131:58] horror and ni Annihilation that was his [132:01] high point and then he started writing [132:03] these romances which are so stupid [132:06] because they have like magic and [132:07] forgiveness and happy endings and I was [132:11] actually told he did that because he was [132:12] scile he was 50 you [132:16] know the tragedies are amazing Stories [132:20] and the [132:22] romances those are the great ones as far [132:24] as I'm concerned cuz that's where the [132:27] tragedy becomes an adventure that ends [132:31] well a good story is when bad things [132:34] happen to good people but a great story [132:36] is when bad things happen to Heroes [132:39] Heroes because the good it's when the [132:41] what the good people do with that do [132:44] they suffer it or do they make it the [132:47] material of invention do they let it be [132:50] a weight of lead or they perform an [132:51] alchemy that turns it into gold and all [132:54] the great stories that last forever are [132:56] the ones about alchemy where suffering [132:59] turns to something wonderful is this a [133:02] choice that we have I do believe it is [133:04] not always like if you're a little kid [133:07] or if you're a young person out there if [133:08] you're a working mom or someone in [133:11] poverty or someone who's just had a [133:12] terminal diagnosis of course you're [133:15] going to feel you're not just going to [133:17] want to jump up and do something [133:20] heroic be kind be kind be kind be kind [133:25] be gentle to [133:27] yourself and if you're gentle for just a [133:30] while you're going to start to say [133:32] instead of what am I going to do about [133:33] this you're going to say what can I make [133:36] from this and that shifts you into the [133:40] mode of the [133:41] creative and as you start to make [133:44] something of your situation you become [133:46] part of the [133:48] creation [133:49] and that's when you wake up from your [133:54] nightmare and to me that's the best [133:56] ending of any [133:58] story you clearly have a great story oh [134:00] thank you so do you because you are [134:02] clearly someone that is a good person [134:04] that bad things happened to um now [134:07] you're a person where bad things have [134:10] happened to someone that me and many [134:12] others consider to be hero because of [134:14] all the wonderful things that you've [134:15] done but you're it's interesting because [134:18] I thought I understood the subject [134:19] matter of anxiety um and I think I was [134:22] of the mind that it's something you [134:23] attack you throw things at you know much [134:26] of society says the key to curing [134:28] anxiety is just you throw pills at it or [134:30] something else but you've given me a [134:32] whole new perspective on what it is and [134:33] also how to navigate in a world that's [134:35] increasingly more anxious and I'm sure [134:37] you've done that for many other people [134:38] in a way that's really really honest um [134:43] really rooted in science and really [134:45] accessible I hope so thank you so much [134:48] that's what I that's genely the words [134:50] that I that I mean I'm not lying to you [134:52] thank so I highly recommend anybody [134:54] who's resonated with any of this [134:55] conversation please go and get this book [134:56] it's fantastic it's it has these [134:59] wonderful areas where um you can engage [135:02] with the book and there's some like [135:03] sections that you can write in um but [135:05] it's just a wonderful book and I think [135:07] it's a wonderful book for anybody that's [135:09] struggling and I say struggling or [135:10] suffering in all your forms that's [135:12] trying to understand what that means and [135:13] how to channel it into your own hero's [135:15] journey of sorts so Dr Martha Beck thank [135:19] you so much it's been such an honor and [135:20] privilege to meet and um I hope we have [135:22] more conversations in the future I hope [135:23] so the honor is all mine thank you so [135:28] much isn't this cool every single [135:31] conversation I have here on the Diary of [135:32] a CEO at the very end of it you'll know [135:35] I asked the guest to leave a question in [135:38] the Diary of a CEO and what we've done [135:41] is we' turned every single question [135:43] written in the Diary of a CEO into these [135:45] conversation cards that you can play at [135:48] home so you've got every guest we've [135:50] ever had their question and on the back [135:53] of it if you scan that QR code you get [135:57] to watch the person who answered that [136:00] question we're finally revealing all of [136:02] the questions and the people that [136:05] answered the question the brand new [136:08] version 2 updated conversation cards are [136:10] out right now at Theon conversation [136:13] cards.com they've sold out twice [136:15] instantaneously so if you are interested [136:17] in getting hold of some limited edition [136:19] conversation cards I really really [136:20] really recommend acting quickly [136:24] [Music]