Berry Upends Nutrition Myths and Details Biological Impact of Food Matrix

贝里颠覆营养学迷思，详解食物基质的生物学影响 Sarah Berry 博士指出，相较于单纯计算卡路里，食物的物理结构和进食时机对代谢健康的影响更为决定性，并证实种子油可降低心血管风险，而深夜进食则会损害代谢。 Sarah Berry 博士对常见的饮食迷思提出挑战，并解释了食物的物理结构——即“食物基质”——如何从根本上改变人体的代谢与饱腹感反应。她深入剖析了进食速度、深夜加餐、社交时差、种子油及更年期背后的科学机制，强调实用且可持续的习惯远胜于刻板的饮食完美主义。结合 PREDICT 和 ZOE 研究的成果，她展示了在睡眠、膳食纤维摄入及进食窗口期方面的细微生活方式调整，就能带来显著的健康改善。 心脏代谢健康由四个相互关联的因素共同决定：个体生物学特征、食物基质、生活方式与昼夜节律因素，以及行为驱动因素。 (2:04) 食物基质会深刻改变饱腹感和代谢反应；完全相同的营养成分根据其物理结构形态的不同，会产生截然不同的生物学效应。 (4:52) 将进食速度放慢 20% 能让肠道饱腹感信号有充分时间传递至大脑，从而在不知不觉中使每日热量摄入减少 15%。 (14:04) 杏仁等天然完整食物中完整的细胞结构可阻止热量被完全吸收，并将 20% 至 30% 的能量传递给肠道微生物群。 (19:43) 将超加工零食替换为原粒坚果能显著改善血管功能，其效果相当于将长期心血管疾病风险降低 30%。 (29:00)

Dr. Sarah Berry argues that metabolic health is governed primarily by the physical structure of food, eating speed, and circadian timing rather than back-of-pack nutrient counts, cautioning that obsessive dietary optimization often undermines everyday well-being. Food Matrix, Bioaccessibility, and Eating Speed (4:52) Dr. Berry emphasizes that foods with identical macronutrient profiles can trigger vastly different metabolic responses depending on their physical architecture, known as the food matrix. For example, finely ground oats produce a 50% higher peak postprandial glucose spike over six hours than large intact oats due to faster absorption kinetics. Similarly, whole almonds encapsulate their fat stores within rigid 50-micron plant cell walls; mastication ruptures only a fraction of them, leaving 20% to 30% of total calories unabsorbed by the body. Physical texture also dictates consumption rate. Modern soft, ultra-processed foods are consumed up to 50% faster than whole foods, outpacing the 10 to 20 minutes required for lower-gut satiety hormones to signal fullness to the brain. In clinical trials, slowing eating speed by 20% involuntarily reduced calorie intake by approximately 15%, while ZOE PREDICT data showed that habitual fast eaters consume an average of 120 additional calories per day. Chrono-Nutrition and Eating Schedule Consistency (35:16) Beyond food composition, Dr. Berry underscores chrono-nutrition—the interaction between food intake and circadian biology. In a ZOE study of 1,000 individuals, meal frequency or grazing did not harm metabolic health when nutrient-dense foods were consumed. However, snacking after 9:00 PM—reported by 30% of participants—was consistently associated with higher visceral abdominal fat, systemic inflammation, and unfavorable blood lipids, even when the snacks themselves were healthy. Restricting the daily eating window can produce substantial metabolic dividends without severe restriction. In ZOE's 150,000-person Big IF study, participants adhering to a sustainable 10-hour eating window spontaneously decreased their daily intake by an average of 300 calories, showing improvements in mood, energy, and blood lipids. Conversely, irregular schedules and "social jet lag"—defined as shifting sleep-wake timing by more than 1.5 hours between workdays and weekends—disrupt circadian clocks and worsen metabolic outcomes. Metabolic Interdependence of Sleep, Stress, and Diet (43:45) Nutritional responses cannot be isolated from sleep, stress, and physical activity. ZOE PREDICT findings demonstrated that a single night of poor sleep impairs postprandial glucose regulation as profoundly as altering the macronutrient profile of a meal. Sleep disruption alters leptin and ghrelin signaling, elevating waking hunger and driving cravings for refined carbohydrates. In the King's College London Slumber Study, improving sleep hygiene alone led short sleepers to spontaneously reduce their daily free sugar intake by roughly 10 grams without receiving any nutritional advice. However, Dr. Berry cautions against compounding stress through rigid dietary guilt during acute life crises or caregiving burdens; during unavoidable "survival mode," strict health optimization must temporarily yield to practical self-compassion. Deconstructing Common Misconceptions: Seed Oils, Dairy, Menopause (61:53) Dr. Berry challenges widespread dietary narratives, placing the social-media demonization of seed oils at the top of unfounded nutrition trends. Controlled human trials confirm that unsaturated omega-6 fatty acids lower LDL cholesterol and reduce inflammation, whereas historical studies claiming harm—such as the 1970s Sydney Diet Heart Study—tested partially hydrogenated oils containing trans fats. Similarly, while butter elevates LDL cholesterol, fermented dairy products like cheese and yogurt do not raise LDL despite equal saturated fat levels, because their intact food matrix alters lipid absorption. Turning to hormonal shifts, Dr. Berry highlights that menopause drastically accelerates cardiometabolic risk: post-menopausal women experience a 25% jump in LDL cholesterol and a fivefold increase in heart attack risk and abdominal adiposity. In a ZOE sample of 70,000 women, 99% experienced perimenopausal symptoms, with cognitive impairments like brain fog (85%) far exceeding hot flushes (40%). She strongly warns against "menowashing"—commercial exploitation that inflates product prices by rebranding ordinary supplements without clinical evidence. Dr. Berry concludes that establishing solid nutritional basics—such as consuming varied whole plants, adequate fiber, and avoiding late-night eating—accounts for 95% of dietary health benefits, whereas obsessing over the remaining 5% generates unnecessary psychological distress. She also argues that systemic public health improvements require transparent, rigorously governed collaborations between academic researchers and the food manufacturing industry to reformulate mainstream products.

伦敦国王学院营养科学教授兼 ZOE 首席科学家 Sarah Berry 指出，影响机体代谢与长期健康的关键不仅是食物标签上的营养素数值，更在于食物的物理结构（食物基质）、进食速度与进餐时机的协同作用。她主张将营养置于包含睡眠与压力的整体生活系统中，通过建立可持续的基础习惯而非极端的饮食优化来维护健康。 食物基质与进食速度对能量摄入的调控 (4:52) Dr. Berry 强调，“食物基质”即食物的物理和结构组织方式，决定了养分的释放速度与人体的吸收程度。营养标签完全相同的食物，因物理结构差异会引发截然不同的代谢结果。1977 年《柳叶刀》研究显示，摄入卡路里与纤维相同的苹果泥，进食速度比完整苹果快 3 至 4 倍，饱腹感显著更弱；临床试验中，研磨燕麦相比完整大颗粒燕麦在餐后 6 小时内引发的血糖峰值高出约 50%。杏仁坚硬的植物细胞壁同样包裹着脂肪，由于人体咀嚼无法完全破坏微米级细胞，约 20% 至 30% 的热量直接排出体外未被吸收，标称 170 千卡实际仅吸收约 130 千卡。 除食物质地外，进食速度直接在神经激素层面调节能量摄入。肠道饱腹感激素传递至大脑需要 10 至 20 分钟，质地过软的超加工食品极易在饱腹感产生前导致过量摄入。临床试验及 ZOE PREDICT 研究证实，将进食速度减慢 20% 可使每日卡路里摄入自发降低约 15%；快食者平均每天比慢食者多摄入约 120 千卡。刻意延长咀嚼并放慢节奏已被证实能带来显著的减重成效。 昼夜节律、进食时机与间歇性禁食 (35:16) 时间营养学（chrono-nutrition）表明，进餐时间与食物品质同等关键。ZOE 对 1000 名受试者的追踪研究显示，只要摄入营养密集的健康食物，每日进食多达 6 次并不直接损害健康，但进餐规律性至关重要。研究发现约 30% 的受试者习惯在晚上 9:00 之后吃零食，这与内脏腹部脂肪堆积、全身炎症及血脂异常显著相关，即使深夜零食属于健康食品也会产生此类负面影响。此外，周末与工作日作息偏差超过 1.5 小时的“社交时差（social jet lag）”同样会扰乱肠道菌群并增加炎症。 针对时间限制性进食（TRE），ZOE 开展了超过 15 万人参与的“Big IF”研究。结果表明，相比临床试验中难以融入社交生活的 5 至 6 小时严苛窗口，10 小时进食窗口（如 10:00 至 20:00）具备高度的可持续性，两周内即可显著改善精力、情绪与血脂，并促使受试者在不刻意节食的情况下每天自发减少约 300 千卡摄入。 睡眠剥夺与身心压力对饮食行为的驱动 (41:12) Dr. Berry 指出，代谢健康取决于饮食、睡眠、压力管理和体力活动四大支柱的协同作用。ZOE PREDICT 研究揭示，单夜睡眠不足对餐后血糖代谢的损害程度堪比直接改变膳食宏量营养素结构，睡眠缺失还会扰乱饥饿素与瘦素分泌，大幅推高对高糖和精制碳水化合物的食欲。国王学院的“Slumber Study”证实，仅通过改善睡眠卫生延长睡眠时间，受试者便会在不接受饮食建议的情况下自发每日减少约 10 克游离糖摄入。 面对严重生活压力、家庭变故或育儿生存期时，神经激素失衡往往使人们难以兼顾饮食。Dr. Berry 结合自身照料重病母亲与抚育幼儿的经历指出，当个体处于“生存模式”时，严苛的饮食优化应当让位于基本生存与自我宽容。社会常将肥胖简单归咎于自制力不足，却忽视了压力与睡眠剥夺在生物学上对不良饮食决策的强力驱动。 澄清种子油与乳制品迷思及基础饮食法则 (61:53) 针对社交网络对种子油的抵制，Dr. Berry 强调其属于缺乏科学证据的恐慌营销。临床证据表明，种子油富含的不饱和脂肪酸（包括 omega-6）具备抗炎和心脏保护效应，并能有效降低低密度脂蛋白（LDL）胆固醇。公众误解主要由于西方约 60% 的种子油来自高糖高盐的超加工食品，以及对早期使用含反式脂肪的部分氢化植物油历史试验的片面解读。 类似地，公众常因饱和脂肪而将乳制品一并妖魔化，但研究显示酸奶与天然奶酪具有独特的保护性食物基质与发酵结构，适量摄入并不会升高 LDL 胆固醇，而缺乏该基质的黄油则会升高胆固醇。Dr. Berry 提出了包含享受、进食节奏、基础营养、整体健康与“增加而非限制”的 5 大原则，并倡导“95/5 原则”：只要 95% 的膳食基于富含纤维、全谷物、蔬果与健康油脂的坚实基础，偶发 5% 的零食享受不会损害长期健康，无需为微小的指标优化牺牲生活乐趣。 围绝经期激素波动与女性心血管代谢重塑 (97:52) 围绝经期通常始于 47 岁左右并持续 2 至 10 年，其特征是雌激素等激素剧烈波动，直至绝经后降至恒定低谷。由于雌激素受体遍布全身组织，这种激素退行使绝经后女性的心血管保护优势完全消失：ZOE PREDICT 数据表明，绝经后女性的 LDL 胆固醇骤升 25%，腹部肥胖与心脏病发作风险剧增至此前的 5 倍。 在 7 万名受试者样本中，99% 的围绝经期女性报告出现至少一种症状，66% 面临 12 种以上症状，约 10% 的女性因此离开职场。与大众聚焦“潮热”（仅占约 40%）不同，脑雾与焦虑（约 85%）才是最普遍的问题，而性欲减退则被评为生活质量负担最重的症状。针对市场上将普通商品贴标溢价的“更年期商业炒作（menowashing）”，Dr. Berry 警示消费者保持理性，指出科学证据支持的膳食与生活方式干预能够减轻约 35% 的更年期症状。 Dr. Berry 强调，改善食物环境需要学术界、政策制定者与食品工业展开理性合作以推动产品改良，而非陷入对立。同时应当明确，目前关于生活方式与更年期症状改善的结论多源于观察性关联研究而非确凿因果，且营养科学研究长期受制于公共经费匮乏。如何在确保学术独立性的前提下推进针对个体的精准干预，仍是未来需要持续探索的课题。

## Background 该视频由 YouTube 频道 The Diary Of A CEO（主持人为 Steven Bartlett）于 2025 年 1 月 27 日发布。访谈嘉宾是伦敦国王学院营养科学教授、ZOE 首席科学家兼 PREDICT 全球最大营养科研项目负责人 Sarah Berry 博士，内容围绕食物基质、进食时间、咀嚼机制及更年期营养干预等前沿科学议题展开。 ## TL;DR Sarah Berry 博士系统拆解了决定人体代谢的“四块拼图”，强调食物基质的物理化学结构远比营养成分标签更能左右人体的吸收率与饱腹感。节目深入探讨了进食速度与咀嚼对卡路里摄入的调控，指出晚上 9 点后进食会显著增加内脏脂肪堆积与慢性炎症风险，并用严格的随机对照试验证据破除了种子油、全脂乳制品及坚果致胖等网络伪科学迷思。此外，对谈重点剖析了女性围绝经期与绝经后的代谢断崖，提出通过高纤维、多样化植物膳食能够将更年期症状减轻约 35%，同时呼吁公众不要为了追求 1% 的微小健康优化而牺牲享受食物的生活乐趣。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在严谨的循证科学与温情的人性关怀之间达成了绝妙平衡。Steven Bartlett 敏锐好奇且善于自我剖析，Sarah Berry 教授则兼具硬核学者的求真底色与率真幽默的生活智慧，两人的互动兼具专业深度与极高的共情力。在揭露网络伪科学噱头时，对话充满激辩与智性快感；而当谈及照护患病母亲的长达四年经历及身处围绝经期的真实脆弱时，现场氛围又转为极其动人的沉静与通透，带给听众一种既被硬核科学洗礼、又被生活哲学深度宽慰的收听体验。 ## Bulletin - [14:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=844s) 将进食速度减慢约20%，单餐卡路里摄入平均可降低15%；而咀嚼40次相较于15次能显著增强饱腹感信号，整颗杏仁因坚硬细胞壁包裹，约20%至30%的热量根本不会被人体吸收。 - [37:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2254s) 晚上9点后进食会与体内万亿细胞的生物钟脱节，显著加剧腹部内脏脂肪堆积和全身炎症，即使夜间摄入的是健康食品也同样会造成负面代谢后果。 - [01:09:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4194s) 基于严格RCT证据，现代种子油不仅无害，反而在降低有害胆固醇与心血管风险上显著优于牛油等动物饱和脂肪；过往的毒性指责多混淆了含有工业反式脂肪的历史氢化工艺。 - [01:39:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5961s) 围绝经期与绝经后女性心脏病发作风险陡增5倍，但转向多样化植物与地中海饮食模式可使更年期症状降低30%至35%，天然大豆异黄酮亦能提供温和的雌激素样调节。 ## Key takeaways - [02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=123s) 现代营养科学已从单一热量与营养素计算演进为四维模型：个体的生物学特征（Who you are）、食物基质与复杂成分（What you eat）、生活方式与进食节奏（How you eat）以及文化与心理动机（Why you eat）。 - [04:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=292s) “食物基质”（Food Matrix）即食物的微观与三维物理化学结构，决定了营养素的释放速率和吸收位置；即便营养成分表完全相同，完整全食物与粉碎软烂食品在人体内的代谢反应与血糖震荡天差地别。 - [11:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=714s) 人体下消化道布满了强效饱腹感感受器，需要10至20分钟才能向大脑传导信号；超加工软质食品在上消化道被迅速吸收，极易导致摄入过量，而致密全食物能直达下消化道延长饱腹感。 - [19:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=1184s) 整颗坚果内部50微米大小的植物细胞壁难以被完全嚼碎，20%至30%的脂肪与热量未经吸收便排入大肠，成为结肠有益微生物菌群的丰富发酵原料。 - [29:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=1791s) 仅将每日20%的日常零食替换为杏仁，在6周内即可显著改善血管内皮舒张功能（FMD），相当于将心血管疾病发病风险降低30%。 - [36:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2215s) 在摄入健康食物的前提下，多餐（少食多餐）本身并不会破坏代谢；真正造成健康损害的是零食的高加工品质，而非进食频率本身。 - [37:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2254s) 昼夜节律营养学证明，夜晚身体代谢大门会逐渐关闭；9点后进食会扰乱细胞生物钟，显著增加腹部脂肪和系统性炎症。 - [43:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2625s) 睡眠、压力、运动与饮食构成健康四大支柱；单次睡眠不足即可诱发饥饿激素失调并导致次日餐后血糖峰值异常偏高，而工作日与周末作息差异超1.5小时的“社交时差”亦会引发全身慢性炎症。 - [54:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3261s) 针对15万人开展的“Big IF”间歇性断食研究显示，放宽至10小时的温和进食窗口即可在两周内提升精力并平均无意识削减300卡路里摄入，且在等热量条件下依然展现出改善血脂与抗炎的独立代谢益处。 - [01:08:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4101s) 网络上盛传的“种子油有毒论”缺乏严谨临床RCT支撑，其恐慌多来自对20世纪70年代悉尼心脏研究（当时使用含反式脂肪的氢化植物油）的断章取义，在真实人体中Omega-6脂肪酸并不会诱发慢性炎症。 - [01:19:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4760s) 发酵加工会彻底改变乳制品的食物基质：黄油会显著推高血液低密度脂蛋白（LDL）胆固醇，而含有相同饱和脂肪酸的奶酪与酸奶适量摄入则完全不会升高循环胆固醇。 - [01:25:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5129s) 日常膳食中摄入的胆固醇（如每天1-2个鸡蛋）对血液循环胆固醇影响极小；真正刺激肝脏大量合成LDL“坏胆固醇”的是动物饱和脂肪（牛油、猪油、肥肉）及高度精制碳水化合物。 - [01:29:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5348s) 评价饱和脂肪危害必须看“替代物是什么”：用不饱和脂肪或全谷物替代饱和脂肪能显著降低心血管死亡率，但用精制碳水替代则毫无改善，这一漏洞常被博人眼球的媒体滥用以宣称“饱和脂肪无害”。 - [01:39:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5961s) 绝经后女性由于雌激素骤降，心脏病发作和向心性内脏脂肪堆积的风险飙升至5倍，LDL胆固醇升高约25%；但通过转向高纤维、地中海饮食模式，可使围绝经期综合征的发生频率与严重程度降低30%至35%。 - [01:44:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6286s) 谨防针对更年期女性极度痛苦心理的“更年期清洗（Menowashing）”高价补剂炒作；除经临床评估的激素替代疗法（HRT）与东亚饮食中常见的大豆异黄酮外，市面绝大多数更年期神药均缺乏扎实循证依据。 - [52:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3164s) 健康饮食的95%取决于基础盘（食物多样性、充足蔬果豆类与全谷物、限制过度加工食品），不应为了追求1%的极端健康优化而牺牲社交乐趣与幸福感；如果一种食物健康到无法让人享受，它就根本谈不上健康。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=0s) 破除营养误区与播客开场 社交媒体上充斥着关于饮食的极端言论与错误信息。例如当下盛行的一种说法是“种子油是有毒的”、“种子油会导致阿尔茨海默病或癌症”。然而，经过长期的深入研究，没有任何确凿证据表明种子油对人体有害；相反，它们在很多方面对健康是有益的。现代人对于吃什么、怎么吃以及食物如何影响健康的认知，存在着大量的误区。 Dr. Sarah Berry 是伦敦国王学院的知名营养科学家兼教授，也是商业与科研项目 ZOE 的首席科学家。她拥有超过 20 年的研究经验，主导了全球规模最大、最深入的营养科研项目 PREDICT，其研究彻底改变了人们对食物代谢、肠道健康以及个体化营养的理解。本期节目将深入探讨诸如食物基质（Food Matrix）、进食时间、咀嚼速度以及更年期饮食干预等关键议题： - 相同标签、相同营养成分和热量的两种食物，仅因加工方式不同，其代谢路径与下游健康效应便截然不同。 - 晚上 9 点后吃零食会显著增加不利健康后果的风险（如导致最恶劣的腹部内脏脂肪堆积），哪怕吃的是健康零食也是如此。 - 将进食速度减慢 20%，平均可减少约 15% 的热量摄入；咀嚼食物 40 次与 15 次相比，身体的代谢反应会有显著差异。 - 针对更年期女性，特定的饮食原则能够将更年期相关症状减轻约 35%。 主持人 Steven Bartlett 在进入正式对话前向听众分享了一组数据：常听节目的听众中有 53% 尚未点击订阅。他真诚呼吁大家顺手点击订阅支持节目，并承诺团队会持续倾听反馈、邀请顶尖嘉宾，将节目做得越来越好。 --- ### [02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=123s) 25年科研生涯与现代营养科学的“拼图模型” 回溯过去 25 年的学术研究，Dr. Sarah Berry 最初专注于一个非常具体的领域：探讨饮食如何影响心血管代谢健康（Cardiometabolic Health），包括 2 型糖尿病、胆固醇水平、血压及体内炎症等心血管疾病的核心危险因素。她的研究主要通过严谨的人体随机对照临床试验（Randomized Controlled Trials, RCT）开展——招募受试者食用特定食物并进行大量的生理测量，追踪食物、单一营养素或整体饮食结构对特定健康指标的具体影响。 随着研究的深入，她逐渐意识到人体代谢极为复杂，需要将所有零散的拼图拼凑在一起，才能真正理解食物的健康价值以及人体的真实反应。现代营养科学不再是孤立地看热量或单一营养素，而是由四块核心拼图共同构成的完整图景： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代营养科学核心影响因素 accDescr: 展示影响人体对食物代谢反应与健康效应的四个核心维度及其子项 subgraph P1["1. 你是谁 (Who You Are)"] A["基因组学与肠道微生态"] B["年龄、性别与绝经状态"] end subgraph P2["2. 你吃什么 (What You Eat)"] C["约 70,000 种化学物质与生物活性成分"] D["食物基质 / 物理化学结构"] end subgraph P3["3. 你怎么吃 (How You Eat)"] E["时差、睡眠时长与压力水平"] F["进食顺序、时间点与运动节点"] end subgraph P4["4. 为什么选择 (Why You Eat)"] G["文化背景、心理情绪与社交场景"] end P1 --> OUT["最终代谢反应与健康效应"] P2 --> OUT P3 --> OUT P4 --> OUT ``` - **第一块拼图：你是谁（Who you are）**——个体的生物学特征，包括基因、肠道微生物组、年龄、性别以及是否处于更年期等。 - **第二块拼图：你吃什么（What you eat）**——跳出食品包装背面仅列出脂肪、蛋白质、纤维和碳水化合物的传统局限。平均每种天然食物含有约 70,000 种不同的化学物质，包含多酚、微量元素等生物活性成分，这些物质被包裹在一个复杂的食物物理结构中，即“食物基质”。 - **第三块拼图：你怎么吃（How you eat）**——生活方式因素。是否处于社交时差、前一晚睡了多久、进餐内各成分的先后顺序、全天的进餐时间分布、即时压力水平以及运动时间节点，都会改变食物在体内的转化与代谢途径。 - **第四块拼图：你为什么做此选择（Why you eat）**——以往常被营养学家忽视的心理与文化维度。人们选择一顿饭往往取决于文化习惯、情绪状态或是社交聚餐体验。 Dr. Sarah Berry 强调，当前营养科学迎来了前所未有的黄金时代，科研人员能够以史无前例的规模、广度、深度和精确度收集多维度生理数据，终于可以看清这些复杂拼图如何交织在一起。 --- ### [04:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=292s) 什么是“食物基质”（Food Matrix）？ “食物基质”简单来说就是**食物的物理与化学结构**。公众习惯从蛋白质、脂肪、碳水化合物等宏量营养素来定义食物，但食物绝非营养素的简单化学混合物。食物内部包含成千上万种生物活性成分（例如多酚类、维生素、矿物质等），它们并非悬浮在真空中，而是被包裹并交织在特定的微观与宏观结构之中。 以苹果为例，整个苹果、苹果泥（Apple Puree）与澄清苹果汁（Apple Juice）可能来自相同的源头原料，但它们的三维空间结构有着本质差异。正因基质不同，机体消化、吸收以及代谢其中糖分和营养成分的速度与程度也会天差地别。 当下“食物基质”概念之所以尤为关键，是因为现代食品环境在过去 50 至 200 年间发生了翻天覆地的剧变。人类当前摄入的食物，其原始结构大多已被工业加工彻底重构。显微镜下，食物分子的空间排列与结合状态已经面目全非，这对代谢及长期健康产生了直接且深远的影响。 --- ### [07:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=423s) 加工的双刃剑：我们为何需要加工食品？ 破坏或改变食物基质的加工行为无处不在，既包含生理层面的，也包含工业层面的： - **生理自发加工**：咀嚼就是一种破坏基质的加工方式。坚果被牙齿嚼碎、进入胃肠道被消化液进一步分解，其颗粒大小直接影响内部脂肪与营养素的释放程度。 - **物理与工业加工**：研磨碾磨、乳品巴氏杀菌、富含碳水化合物食物的膨化挤压（Extrusion）等。 尽管当下舆论全面声讨“超加工食品”（Ultra-processed Food），批评其提供了大众 60% 的热量摄入并被斥为“正在毒害国民”，但 Dr. Sarah Berry 提醒大家，加工本身是一把双刃剑，必须客观看待食品加工最初的根本意义： - **提高可食性（Edible）**：生大米未经蒸煮无法消化，必须通过热加工才能被人体利用。 - **保障食品安全性（Safe）**：牛奶等乳制品经巴氏杀菌可以有效杀灭致病菌，保障大众生命安全。 - **提升保质期与稳定性（Stable）**：罐头与冷冻蔬菜的加工极大延长了食品储藏周期，显著减少了食物浪费。 - **风味（Taste）与便利性（Convenience）**：改善适口性并适应快节奏的现代生活节奏。 评价一种食物的健康度时，绝不能将加工方式与营养成分割裂开来。只有将加工技术对食物基质的改变与食物原有的营养素谱结合起来看，才能做出科学评价。 --- ### [08:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=495s) 坏的加工 vs. 好的加工：零食的现场审视 加工在什么情况下会彻底“走偏变坏”？Dr. Sarah Berry 指出，当加工技术改变了食物的营养结构与物理形态，并导致如下恶果时，加工就是有害的： 1. **营养成分劣化**：过多的饱和脂肪、过量的盐分、极度缺乏膳食纤维以及极度匮乏多酚等天然生物活性成分。 2. **极高的能量密度（Energy Density）**：破坏基质后，食物变得极其松软、易碎或高热量浓缩。 3. **极快的进食速率（Eating Rate）**：高能量密度使得人们可以在极短的时间内吞下大量热量。进食过快导致消化道产生的饱腹感信号尚未传导至大脑（大脑通常需要一定时间做出“已经饱了”的神经反馈），人们便已在不知不觉中过量进食。 反之，优秀的食品加工不仅能够提升食品安全与货架稳定性，还能够通过特定的前处理提高食物中某些营养素的“生物可及性”（Bio-accessibility），使人体肠道更容易吸收到有益成分。 为了直观展示食物基质与加工的差异，主持人 Steven Bartlett 拿出了现场准备的几盘典型零食：一盘混合坚果（Mixed Nuts）、一盘曲奇饼干（Cookies）、几块巧克力，以及一筒大家都很熟悉的盐醋味品客薯片（Pringles）。两位专家围着这几样加工程度截然不同的零食，准备展开更具象的代谢对比。 ### [09:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=586s) 零食的诱惑与饱腹感信号的延迟 史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）指着桌上的零食打趣道，英国人是一个热爱薯片的民族（"a nation of crisp lovers"），当聊到那种“让人吃得飞快且感觉不到饱”的食物时，他脑海中浮现的第一个念头就是薯片。莎拉·贝里博士（Dr Sarah Berry）指出，薯片、巧克力和饼干这类高度加工食品，与天然健康食物相比普遍纤维匮乏，糖、盐含量偏高，并且缺少有益的生物活性成分。更关键的是它们的能量密度极高，单位克数包含大量卡路里。然而，像坚果这样的天然全食物（Whole Foods）即便脂肪和热量同样很高，却由于保留了完整的“食物基质”（Food Matrix），人体代谢和处理它们的方式与加工食品有着天壤之别。 当史蒂文询问“吃下薯片后大脑需要多久才能意识到自己在吃东西”时，莎拉解释称，人体调控饱腹感和饥饿感是一套复杂的生理系统，需要肠道各部位分泌多种激素并向大脑反馈信号。平均而言，人体在进食后大约需要 10 到 20 分钟才能真正启动并感知到充分的饱腹感。史蒂文坦言自己过去吃品客薯片（Pringles）等膨化零食时，身体甚至还没反应过来，自己就已经风卷残云般干掉了两整桶。 - 典型加工零食（薯片、饼干、巧克力）的特征：低纤维、高精制糖/高盐、缺乏活性营养素、极高能量密度。 - 大脑饱腹感延迟：进食后需 **10 到 20 分钟**，肠道释放的激素信号才能让大脑完全接收到饱腹反馈。 --- ### [11:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=714s) 食品工业、适口性与肠道受体的饱腹机制 针对食品是否被特意设计成让人停不下来，莎拉阐述了一个在业内略带争议的温和视角。许多人指责食品工业处心积虑制造“超级适口”（hyper-palatable）的垃圾食品——精准调配脂肪、糖分、碳水化合物和盐的黄金比例，以诱导大众暴饮暴食。莎拉表示自己并不认为食品工业是在恶意陷害消费者，她接触的许多行业从业者初衷仍是生产安全美味的产品，但食品为了追求极佳的风味与口感，不可避免的副产品就是容易让人进食过量。 除了消化需要时间外，饱腹感产生的核心机制还在于食物在消化道中的位置。咀嚼和初级感官体验虽然会触发初步信号，但真正释放“你已经吃饱了”强效信号的饱腹感受体，大部分高度集中在下消化道（肠道下端）。超加工的柔软零食在生产线上已经被粉碎“预消化”，摄入后迅速在上消化道被分解吸收，很难触达下消化道；而坚果和全谷物等结构致密的完整食物需要漫长的物理与化学分解，能一路挺进到下消化道，激活深处的饱腹感受体，带来更持久扎实的满足感。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 加工食物与全食物的消化与饱腹机制对比 accDescr: 展示超加工软质食物与致密全食物在胃肠道不同位置的吸收与饱腹信号差异 subgraph Processed["超加工软质零食 (如薯片、饼干)"] A1["质地松软 / 咀嚼阻力小"] --> B1["进食速度极快 (未达20分钟)"] B1 --> C1["上消化道快速崩解吸收"] C1 --> D1["极少触达下消化道受体\n饱腹信号弱 / 易过量进食"] end subgraph WholeFood["天然全食物 (如坚果、全谷物)"] A2["保留完整食物基质 / 质地硬"] --> B2["进食速度慢 / 充分咀嚼"] B2 --> C2["缓慢穿过消化系统"] C2 --> D2["直达下消化道高密度受体区\n强效释放饱腹激素 / 延长饱腹感"] end ``` --- ### [14:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=844s) 放慢进食速度的科学依据与卡路里摄入 史蒂文分享了自己生活中的一件趣事：多年来他的女友一直敦促他放慢进食速度，他过去总觉得这是一种玄学或灵性层面的说教（比如“对食物心怀感恩”），甚至曾用一套站不住脚的伪进化论借口反驳她——“在荒野里原始人为了生存必须争分夺秒地抢食”。但阅读了莎拉的研究后，他不得不承认女友一直是对的。 莎拉指出，基兰·福德教授（Prof. Ciarán Forde）多年来专注于食物质地、进食速率与代谢之间的关系。科学研究表明，进食速度不仅影响卡路里摄入，还直接改变身体代谢营养的方式。放慢进食不仅是一种心理暗示，它是一项立竿见影的生理减重策略： - **进食速率与摄入量**：福德教授的研究证明，将进食速度减慢约 **20%**，整餐的卡路里摄入量平均可减少 **15%**。 - **ZOE PREDICT 数据**：在控制了多种混杂变量后，吃得快的人每天比吃得慢的人平均多摄入 **120 卡路里**。 - **临床试验干预**：在为期数周的临床随机对照试验中，被明确要求有意放慢进食速度的受试组，其减重效果显著优于维持正常进食速度的对照组。 --- ### [16:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=1005s) 质地改变一切：1977年苹果与苹果泥的经典实验 现代人之所以吃得越来越快，很大程度上是食品工业环境导致的。研究显示，高度加工的软质食物（soft-textured food）的吞咽摄入速度，比未加工的硬质同类食物整整快了 **50%**。为了阐明物理形态对代谢的决定性影响，莎拉重温了 1977 年发表于著名医学期刊《柳叶刀》（*The Lancet*）、由科学家哈伯（Haber）主导的一项开创性营养学研究。 在这项实验中，受试者分别摄入两组食物：一组是完整的苹果，另一组是由等量苹果打制而成的苹果泥。两组在热量、碳水化合物、纤维和微量营养素的账面数值上完全一致，唯一的差异在于物理形态——一个是质地坚硬的完整全食物，另一个是捣碎的软烂果泥。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 1977年柳叶刀苹果实验对比 accDescr: 比较完整苹果与苹果果泥在进食速率、饱腹感与血糖骤降方面的剧烈差异 subgraph Apple["完整硬质苹果"] A1["完整食物基质"] --> B1["进食速度平缓"] B1 --> C1["饱腹感持续数小时"] C1 --> D1["血糖平稳无骤降"] end subgraph Puree["均质软烂苹果泥"] A2["打碎的食物基质"] --> B2["进食速度快 300%-400%"] B2 --> C2["饱腹感迅速消退"] C2 --> D2["餐后2-4小时出现血糖骤降 (Dip)\n下一餐多吃约180卡"] end ``` 实验结果令人震惊，并彻底颠覆了单纯以营养标签论健康的教条： - **进食速率**：受试者吃完（甚至更像是喝完）苹果泥的速度，比啃完等热量完整苹果快了 **3 到 4 倍**（即快了 300% 至 400%）。 - **饱腹持久度**：在餐后数小时的持续监测中，吃完整苹果的人维持了长时间的饱腹感，而吃苹果泥的人饱腹感很快消退。 - **餐后血糖骤降（Blood Sugar Dip）**：食用苹果泥的人在进食后 2 到 4 小时内，血液循环中的葡萄糖水平明显跌破基线（形成血糖低谷）。 - **后续暴食倾向**：结合 ZOE PREDICT 的最新研究，这类被称为“血糖骤降者”（Dippers）的人群，由于体内血糖剧烈波动，在随后的下一餐中会不由自主地平均多摄入 **180 卡路里**。莎拉笑着坦白自己就是一个典型的“骤降者”，这也是为什么她总在饭后几小时就饥肠辘辘。 莎拉强调，这项四十多年前的研究证明：即便两款食物在包装袋背面的营养成分表上毫无差别（相同的卡路里、碳水化合物与纤维），仅仅因为食物基质与物理质地的改变，它们对人体能量吸收率、饱腹感调控、血糖反应及远期健康的生理影响便有天壤之别。 ### [19:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=1184s) 坚果的“食物基质”：为什么吃杏仁不会吸收全部热量？ 莎拉·贝里（Sarah Berry）博士以杏仁和核桃为例，生动解释了“食物基质”（Food Matrix）的核心原理。当主持人史蒂文在现场咬下一颗杏仁发出清脆的咀嚼声时，莎拉指出，这种清脆的声响正是源于植物细胞那极其坚硬的细胞壁。一颗小小的杏仁内部包含着成千上万个细胞，每个细胞仅有约 50 微米大小，比一粒沙子还要细小得多，肉眼根本无法看清。在这些微小细胞内部，包裹着占坚果总量约 50% 的脂肪。大众往往谈坚果色变，认为它们“高脂、高热量”，但实际情况远比热量表复杂。 根据“咀嚼与吐出实验”（chew and spit studies）以及咀嚼力学研究，人类咀嚼坚果并吞咽时，咽下的坚果碎块（宏观颗粒）直径通常在 0.5 毫米至 1 毫米之间。这意味着，在吞咽的碎块内部，仍然包裹着成千上万个结构完好、未被破坏的 50 微米细胞。由于细胞壁完好无损，里面的脂肪被牢牢锁住，导致其“生物利用度”（bioaccessibility）极低，人体的消化酶很难接触并分解它们。 谈到坚果的排泄，现场气氛变得十分幽默。莎拉调侃道，不管是作为做粪便研究的科学家，还是作为一名母亲，她在生活中“观察过大量的便便”。很多人吃完一整袋坚果后，甚至能在自己的粪便中直接看到未被消化的坚果碎粒。坚果在口腔咀嚼阶段仅释放约 10% 的热量，在经过胃和小肠时再被消化 60% 至 70%，最终有高达 20% 到 30% 的热量根本不会被人体吸收，而是原封不动地直接排出体外。这不仅意味着吃整颗坚果摄入的热量远低于标签标注，更重要的是，那些未消化的残留物进入大肠（结肠）后，成为了肠道微生物菌群极其丰盛的“狂欢盛宴”，对肠道健康大有裨益。 - 杏仁细胞尺寸约为 50 微米，肉眼不可见；坚果内脂肪含量通常高达 50% 左右。 - 人类吞咽时的坚果咀嚼颗粒大小约为 0.5 至 1 毫米，内部包含大量完整的未破裂细胞。 - 整颗坚果的热量消化释放比例：口腔阶段约 10%，肠胃通过阶段约 60%–70%，约 20%–30% 未被吸收直接进入大肠或排出体外。 --- ### [23:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=1388s) 研磨坚果与燕麦实验：营养成分表看不见的代谢差异 如果将这颗整杏仁放入工业研磨机中，将其彻底粉碎至细胞壁完全破碎（颗粒小于 50 微米），所有被包裹的脂肪就会全部释放出来，生物利用度瞬间跃升至 100%。荒谬之处在于：无论是整颗杏仁还是被彻底磨碎的杏仁粉，产品外包装背面的“营养成分表”在热量、脂肪、蛋白质等数据上可以完全一致。然而，二者在人体内引起的代谢反应却天差地别——磨碎的坚果会导致餐后 8 小时内血液中的甘油三酯和血脂水平产生完全不同的急剧波动。不过，加工研磨也是一把“双刃剑”，打碎细胞壁的同时，也释放出了坚果内部原本不易吸收的有益微量营养素（如维生素 E）。 食物基质影响健康的方式不仅体现在“吸收总量”上，更体现在“吸收速率”与“吸收位置”上，莎拉团队进行的燕麦临床试验清晰地印证了这一点： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 燕麦物理形态对消化与血糖波动的机制对比 accDescr: 对比传统大颗粒钢切燕麦与粉碎燕麦在肠道吸收速度和血糖反应上的差异 subgraph LargeOat["完整大型燕麦（如传统钢切燕麦）"] L1["细胞壁与纤维结构完整"] --> L2["肠道消化吸收速率平缓"] L2 --> L3["餐后 6 小时血糖反应较低"] L3 --> L4["胰岛素分泌适度，饱腹感持久"] end subgraph GroundOat["微细研磨燕麦（粉末状）"] G1["物理研磨破坏食物基质"] --> G2["肠道快速释放与吸收碳水"] G2 --> G3["餐后血糖峰值高出约 40%-50%"] G3 --> G4["刺激更多胰岛素分泌，易引发饥饿波动"] end ``` 在严格的临床交叉对照试验中，受试者在不同测试日分别摄入含 50 克碳水化合物的传统大颗粒粗燕麦（类似传统钢切燕麦），或是被学生研磨成粉末状的同款燕麦。随访 6 小时的代谢数据显示，食用磨碎燕麦后的餐后循环血糖反应比完整粗燕麦高出整整 40% 到 50%。这种急速的葡萄糖涌入会直接触发胰岛素的剧烈分泌，进而打乱调控饥饿与饱腹感的肠道激素平衡。这充分证明，仅凭食品标签上的碳水化合物克数，根本无法反映食物在体内的真实代谢结果。 --- ### [26:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=1575s) 膳食纤维的双重力量：水溶性、非水溶性与加工添加的真相 针对史蒂文提到美国市场上甚至出现了“额外添加 15 克纤维”的糖果与功能饮料，莎拉展开了对膳食纤维的系统剖析。纤维是营养学界极少数“几乎没有任何争议、一致被证实对健康有百利而无一害”的超级营养素。充足的纤维摄入与多种癌症（尤其是结肠癌）发生率下降、心血管疾病风险降低、肥胖及 2 型糖尿病发病率下降有着极其强力的关联。然而，现代人正处于严重的“纤维饥荒”之中：在英国和美国，推荐的每日纤维摄入量至少为 30 克，但公众平均摄入量仅在 20 克左右，高达 95% 的人纤维摄入严重不足。 从生物机制来看，纤维的益处主要由其分类决定： - **水溶性纤维（Soluble Fiber）：** 能在消化道中形成凝胶状物质，直接影响胆固醇的吸收，并延缓营养物质的代谢转化速率。 - **非水溶性纤维（Insoluble Fiber）：** 构成了植物坚硬的细胞壁（如坚果的坚硬外壳与细胞结构）。它不仅能够增加粪便体积、缩短肠道转运时间，从而大幅降低结肠癌的风险，更是肠道菌群赖以生存的核心原料。肠道菌群在分解这些纤维时会释放出一系列对人体代谢与免疫至关重要的活性分子。 对于市面上人造的“强化纤维零食”，莎拉给出了务实的态度：尽管来自天然完整食物的天然纤维由于其原生食物基质结构能够减缓营养吸收速度，永远是最优选择，但在整个人群普遍缺纤维的现状下，“摄入经过加工添加的合成纤维也绝对比完全不吃纤维强得多”。 - 推荐标准：英美权威指南建议每日膳食纤维摄入量 ≥ 30 克。 - 现实差距：大众平均摄入量仅约 20 克，95% 的人群未能达到推荐标准。 --- ### [29:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=1740s) 零食革命：用健康坚果替代垃圾零食改善心血管健康 史蒂文分享了自己在生活习惯上的一个重要顿悟：彻底将家里的不健康垃圾零食清理出门，全盘替换成健康的天然完整食物。他分析指出，吃零食的使用场景往往发生在正餐之间、时间仓促且饥饿感突然袭来的时刻；在这种生理驱动下，人们往往会冲动行事，做出不经大脑思考的快速决策。史蒂文随后引用了一项对比“普通商业零食”与“健康坚果零食”的研究，指出单纯改变零食种类就能显著降低心血管疾病的发病风险。 莎拉欣喜地回应道，史蒂文引用的这项实验正是由她主导的科研成果之一。在英国及许多西方国家，人们早已演变为一个“零食大国”（a nation of snackers），正餐之间的零食摄入在每日总热量中占据了极高的比例，因此深入探究改变零食的品质对人体代谢与心血管标志物的长期影响，具有至关重要的公共健康意义。 ### [29:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=1791s) 杏仁零食替换实验与心血管健康 在英国和美国等国家，人们每天大约有 25% 的能量摄入来自零食，这个数字相当惊人。莎拉·贝里博士（Dr Sarah Berry）的团队想知道，如果做一个非常简单的“零食替换”（Snack swap），是否能够切实改善人们的健康。于是他们开展了一项为期 6 周的临床试验：要求参与者保持其他所有日常饮食不变，仅将其总能量摄入的 20% 进行替换——一组摄入典型的英式加工零食，另一组则摄入等热量的杏仁（Almonds）。为了精确模拟英美大众常吃的零食，研究团队花费了大量精力设计了一种特殊的松饼（Muffin），它的营养成分综合了薯片、巧克力饼干和蛋糕的特点，属于高度加工食品，富含饱和脂肪、精制糖与精炼碳水化合物，而膳食纤维极低。 在为期 6 周的实验前后，研究人员测量了多项健康指标，其中包括评估血管内皮功能的关键指标——血流介导的血管舒张功能（Flow-mediated dilation, FMD）。该指标能直接反映血管的弹性与健康状态。实验结果令人极为震惊：仅仅 6 周时间，摄入杏仁组相较于摄入典型英式加工零食组，血管功能的改善程度相当于降低了 30% 的心血管疾病风险。贝里博士强调，零食往往是个人最具自主控制权的饮食环节——吃什么零食不需要迁就挑食的孩子，也往往可以随身携带。这项研究证明，单凭这一个极简的饮食微调策略，就能产生巨大的健康收益。贝里博士也坦诚声明了利益冲突，指出这项研究接受了加利福尼亚杏仁商会（Almond Board of California）的资助，但在严格的随机对照试验（RCT）机制下，资助方无法干预实验设计、无法接触原始数据，也无权在发表前修改论文；而且类似的有益效应在其他坚果及健康零食替代研究中同样得到了反复验证。 - **能量占比**：英美国家成年人约 25% 的每日能量摄入来自零食。 - **实验设计**：用加州杏仁替换 20% 的日常能量摄入，持续 6 周，其他饮食与生活习惯完全一致。 - **对照零食**：特制的高加工松饼，复刻了薯片、巧克力饼干与蛋糕的高饱和脂肪、高糖、高精制碳水和极低纤维的营养配比。 - **核心结论**：杏仁组在 6 周内显著改善血流介导的血管舒张功能（FMD），相当于心血管疾病患病风险降低 30%。 --- ### [32:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=1971s) 零食文化与“多米诺骨牌”连锁反应 斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）列举了一组对比鲜明的数据：在英国，85% 的人有吃零食的习惯，每天吃 2.5 到 3 次零食，累加起来每天有 6 到 7 次进食行为；而在法国，只有 10% 的人报告会吃零食。在地中海国家，零食仅占全天总能量的 14%，约为英国的一半。更糟糕的是，在英国和美国，人们摄入的零食中有高达 75% 属于对健康不利的垃圾食品。这种频繁的劣质能量摄入让人的血糖在一天之中剧烈波动，造成所谓的新陈代谢混乱。 斯蒂芬进一步提出了一个关键疑问：吃下那个高糖高脂的松饼，其危害真的仅限于那一块松饼本身吗？它会不会触发某种“下游多米诺骨牌效应”（Downstream domino effect）？比如，吃了劣质零食后导致血糖大起大落，进而让人在下一餐做出更糟糕的食物选择，甚至影响当晚的睡眠。贝里博士对此表示赞同：虽然不能说选错一次零食就意味着“整天都毁了”，但一餐的选择确实会引发强烈的连锁反应。当人们摄入高精制碳水化合物后，极易经历随后的血糖骤降（Blood sugar dip）；贝里博士的既往研究证实，血糖低谷会直接导致饥饿感飙升、卡路里摄入增加，并伴随情绪低落、精力匮乏和警觉度下降。正因零食占总热量的比重如此之大且通常质量堪忧，只要善用零食、将其转化为优质营养的来源，就能扭转这一恶性循环。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 劣质零食引发的代谢多米诺效应 accDescr: 展示高精制碳水与高糖零食如何通过血糖骤降引发连续的生理与行为恶性循环。 subgraph Phase1["摄入阶段"] A["摄入典型高精制碳水/高糖零食"] --> B["血糖迅速飙升 (Glucose Spike)"] end subgraph Phase2["代谢反弹"] B --> C["胰岛素激增导致血糖骤降 (Sugar Dip)"] end subgraph Phase3["下游多米诺反应"] C --> D["饥饿感加剧与食欲失控"] C --> E["精力匮乏、警觉度下降与情绪低落"] D --> F["下一餐做出更差的饮食决策"] E --> F F --> G["代谢负荷增加并可能扰乱睡眠质量"] end ``` --- ### [36:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2215s) 少食多餐 vs 三餐制：进食频率真的重要吗？ 大众和营养学界长期存在一个激烈争论：我们究竟应该回归传统的“一日三餐”（早餐、午餐、晚餐），还是采用“少食多餐/少食慢咽”（Grazing）的进食模式？在演播室里，斯蒂芬甚至开玩笑地把桌上散发着香气的巧克力和饼干推得离自己更远，笑称这是为了在 1 月份考验自己的自制力。为了彻底厘清“多餐进食本身是否有害”，贝里博士的团队在一项涵盖 1000 名受试者的大型队列中，系统追踪了受试者吃什么、何时吃、如何吃以及相关的各项健康生物标志物。 研究给出了一个出人意料且清晰的答案：**在合理范围内，进食频率本身并不会对健康产生负面影响**。无论一个人是一天只吃三顿规整的正餐，还是像许多现代人一样全天有 6 次进食场景（即正餐加上频繁的零食加餐），只要其摄入的零食属于富含全食物营养的健康食品，就不会对身体的代谢指标和健康结局造成损害。换句话说，营养学界多年来对“少食多餐”导致代谢紊乱的指责，本质上混淆了“进食频率”与“所吃零食的质量”——摧毁人体健康的不是进食次数本身，而是人们在加餐时塞进肚子里的那些劣质超加工垃圾食品。 --- ### [37:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2254s) 昼夜节律营养学：为什么晚上 9 点后绝对不要进食？ 虽然进食频率没有硬性限制，但“进食时间”（Timing）却是一道不可逾越的生理红线。贝里博士指出，新兴学科“昼夜节律营养学”（Chrono-nutrition）表明，人体内的每一个细胞都有其内在的生物钟。这些数以万亿计的细胞时钟不仅受昼夜光照循环的调控，同时也深度依赖进食时间的校准。如果在错误的时间进食，身体的代谢机制与消化吸收通路就会与细胞时钟产生严重脱节，从而引发异常的病理代谢。 在贝里博士团队的研究中，有大约 30% 的人习惯在晚上 9 点之后吃零食。临床数据表明，在夜间 9 点之后进食与一系列极不理想的健康后果显著相关：腹部脂肪（特别是内脏脂肪）增加、全身系统性炎症水平升高，以及血脂指标（如胆固醇）严重恶化。最为关键的发现是：**即使用户在晚上 9 点之后吃的是完全健康的零食，这种负面代谢效应依然存在**。听到这里，斯蒂芬直呼“感觉被冒犯了”，并分享了自己的直觉切身体会：他长期以来就形成了一个猜想，只要在临睡前进食，小肚子就会明显变大，第二天醒来整个人感觉极其沉重萎靡，就像是在机器即将关机休息时强行塞入原料，结果机器只能在半停滞状态下勉强运转。贝里博士的研究从细胞生物钟与代谢机制上完全印证了他的猜想——晚上 9 点之后，人体的代谢大门就已经开始关闭，任何热量摄入都将付出健康的代价。 ### [39:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2371s) 夜间进食与身体钟的冲突 Dr Sarah Berry 解释道，就像我们的大脑需要休息一样，我们的身体、细胞、新陈代谢乃至肠道微生物群（gut microbiome）也都需要在夜间得到充分休整。如果在夜间进食，身体各系统得不到休息，内部平衡就会被打乱。一项一两年前发表的趣味研究显示，在摄入相同食物与总热量、且进食时间跨度一致的前提下，将热量集中在白天较早时段摄入的人群，次日醒来时饥饿感明显较低；反之，将大部分热量安排在晚间的人群，早晨醒来反而感到更饥饿。 这一发现看似反直觉，却与人体生理节律高度吻合。这也解释了为什么“早期限时进食”（Early Time-Restricted Eating）在改善体重、减轻炎症和调节胆固醇等健康指标上的表现，普遍优于较晚结束进食的模式。当人们在白天较早的时间窗口进食时，身体是在顺应体内数以亿计的“细胞时钟”（cell clocks）运行，而不是逆向而行。 ### [41:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2469s) 睡眠紊乱、食欲激素与 Slumber 研究 主持人 Steven Bartlett 分享了自己的切身体会：平时他没有吃早餐的习惯，往往要到中午或下午 2 点才感到饥饿；然而一旦需要赶清晨 4、5 点的早班飞机而被迫早起，他醒来时就会感到饥肠辘辘。Sarah 对此分析指出，睡眠时长（sleep duration）、睡眠效率（sleep efficiency）以及睡眠中点（sleep midpoint）都会直接扰动调节饥饿感与饱腹感的激素水平。睡眠不足或睡眠质量低下，不仅会刺激食欲，还会诱发对不健康食物的渴望。 伦敦国王学院（King's College London）开展的“Slumber 研究”为这一机制提供了有力证据。研究人员并未对参与者进行任何膳食指导，仅要求习惯性睡眠不足的人群践行良好的睡眠卫生习惯（sleep hygiene）——包括睡前不看屏幕、避免剧烈运动、戒断咖啡因和酒精、保持卧室黑暗等。实验结果令人惊奇：仅仅通过延长睡眠时间，这些受试者在没有任何外界饮食建议的情况下，自主减少了每天约 10 克的游离糖（free sugar）摄入。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 睡眠不足对饮食与代谢的负面连锁反应 accDescr: 展示从睡眠剥夺、激素紊乱到饮食选择恶化及血糖剧烈波动的级联影响 subgraph SleepImpact["睡眠缺失与激素紊乱"] A["睡眠剥夺 / 睡眠质量差"] --> B["饥饿与饱腹激素失衡"] B --> C["早晨醒来极度饥饿"] end subgraph BehaviorImpact["行为选择偏差"] C --> D["渴望高糖高热量速效食物<br/>(例如巧克力可颂)"] D --> E["自由糖与不健康热量摄入增加"] end subgraph MetabolicImpact["代谢紊乱恶化"] E --> F["餐后血糖峰值异常偏高<br/>(Postprandial Glucose Response)"] F --> G["形成代谢与食欲恶性循环"] end ``` ### [43:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2625s) 健康四大基石与餐后血糖反应 Steven Bartlett 回忆起年轻时作为创业者深受“拼搏文化”（hustle culture）的影响，总以为睡眠是追求效率时最先可以牺牲的东西；直到近两三年调整日程将睡眠置于首位，他才发觉工作专注度、去健身房的动力乃至伴侣关系都得到了全方位的改善。Sarah 完全认同这种转变，并指出健康由四大不可分割的支柱构成： - **饮食（Diet）** - **睡眠（Sleep）** - **压力管理（Stress）** - **身体活动（Physical Activity）** 根据 ZOE 的 PREDICT 研究项目，睡眠质量对人体新陈代谢反应的影响，甚至不亚于一餐中宏量营养素的配比。研究对比了同一受试者在良好睡眠与糟糕睡眠后的餐后血糖反应（postprandial glucose response）：在睡眠不足的状态下吃下含有碳水化合物的早餐，其血糖飙升幅度显著高于睡眠良好时的水平。缺觉导致醒来时食欲旺盛，驱使人们选择像巧克力可颂（pain au chocolat）这样能带来快速能量补充的高糖食品，叠加体内迟钝的代谢系统，最终制造了一场“完美风暴”。 ### [48:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2881s) 父母育儿时期的极度睡眠剥夺与“生存模式” 当 Steven 问及作为父母该如何抵御睡眠剥夺带来的生理负面效应时，Sarah 直率地坦言，在现实的极端困境面前，科学策略往往只能让位于“生存”。在两个孩子出生的前四年，她的生活陷入了重重重压：女儿出生短短数周后父亲离世，她不得不暂停事业，与姐姐一同全天候照护住在附近的母亲；与此同时，两个年幼的孩子几乎夜夜哭闹不休。 在那种极度缺乏睡眠、身心俱疲的状态下，“吃什么”或“什么时候吃”根本无暇顾及，每天的目标仅仅是竭尽全力活下去、撑住家庭并照顾好母亲。Sarah 强调，每个人一生中都会经历类似的“纯生存期”，此时所有的生活规律与健康守则都难免被抛在脑后，这也是许多身处育儿困境或重压生活中的人必须面对的真实人性一面。 ### [49:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=2971s) 压力、心理健康与超加工食品的恶性循环 莎拉·贝里（Sarah Berry）坦诚分享了一段沉重的个人经历：她的母亲曾患有一种退行性神经系统疾病。每天眼看着至亲的身体状况不断恶化，在那种被痛苦和悲伤笼罩的阴霾（fug）中，体育锻炼根本无暇顾及，健康饮食也彻底失去了优先级。她指出，尽管科学早已证实饮食对心理健康至关重要，人在遭遇创伤或抑郁时最先放弃的反而是合理膳食。史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）顺着这个话题指出，如今英美等国肥胖率激增，大众盲目将 Ozempic（诺和泰）等药物视为解药，但年轻人日益严重的焦虑与抑郁往往被忽视。超加工食品的泛滥本质上是市场需求的体现——高压生活摧毁了人们的自控力与心理韧性，促使人们出于本能去寻求高热量慰藉。 面对这种普遍的社会困境，莎拉强调，改变饮食模式并非单纯靠个人意志力，而是涉及政府规管、食品工业配方、学校与家庭教育等多维度的系统性工程。现代食品工业制造的巧克力、饼干和薯片利用巧妙的配方欺骗了人类的味蕾和大脑，使其显得格外诱人。莎拉坦言，即使作为顶尖营养学家，在深夜十点面对繁重的工作压力与截稿期时，她也渴望吃饼干、薯片再配上一杯红酒，而不是去啃健康的坚果。在这种身心俱疲的时刻，情绪驱动的决策往往会战胜理性认知。 ### [52:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3164s) 拒绝极端健康优化：食物的本质是享受生活 针对莎拉偶尔做出的不健康选择，史蒂文直截了当地发问：“你拥有比地球上绝大多数人都深厚的营养学知识，当你发现自己依然做出了次优的营养抉择时，你会感到挫败和自我厌烦吗？”莎拉毫不犹豫地否定了这种自责情绪。她认为现代社会将健康饮食搞得过于繁琐复杂，其实底层逻辑十分直白：只要日常摄入充足的水果、蔬菜和豆类，保证食物多样性，并尽量控制重度加工食品的比例，整体健康基底就足够扎实。只要不是日复一日、毫无节制地暴饮暴食，偶尔吃一块巧克力完全无伤大雅。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 饮食健康与生活品质的平衡金字塔 accDescr: 展现95%基础饮食结构与5%微优化之间的主次关系 subgraph Core["核心基石（占健康价值的 95%）"] A["多样化植物、蔬果与豆类"] B["控制超加工食品摄入"] C["维持长期稳定的健康模式"] end subgraph Marginal["边际收益（仅占 1%）"] D["极端健康优化与精密计算"] E["牺牲社交、文化与快乐"] end Core -->|"打好基础，水到渠成"| F["身心长久健康与幸福"] Marginal -.->|"过度苛求，得不偿失"| G["情绪焦虑与生活乐趣丧失"] ``` 莎拉对当下流行的“极端饮食优化”趋势表达了深切的忧虑。一部分人为了追求那 1% 的边际营养提升，彻底剥夺了进餐的快乐。她提出了一个发人深省的核心准则：“如果一种食物健康到无法让人享受，那它就根本不健康（If a food is too healthy to be enjoyed, it's just not healthy at all）。”食物绝不仅仅是一堆生化分子的组合，它承载着文化、情感联结与社交意义。只要抓住了决定健康的 95% 核心基底，就没必要陷入严苛的自我惩罚之中。 ### [54:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3261s) 破除饮食法迷思与ZOE的大规模间歇性断食研究 谈及市面上名目繁多的流行饮食法（Diets），莎拉毫不客气地将其中的大量概念斥为“营养学胡扯”（Nutrabollocks）。社交媒体上的伪科学营销与严谨的科学证据之间简直是“云泥之别”。例如提倡多吃碱性食物的“碱性饮食法”（Alkaline Diet），在强酸性的胃部环境下根本毫无生理学依据；而“血型饮食法”同样缺乏扎实的机制支持。低热量饮食虽然能迅速减重，却极难长期维持。相比之下，唯有“每周摄入30种不同植物”等基于肠道微生态的研究具有坚实的证据支撑。 对于风靡一时的限时进食（Time-Restricted Eating, TRE），临床代谢舱实验往往设定极其严苛的 5 到 6 小时进食窗口（例如上午 10 点吃第一餐，下午 4 点吃最后一餐），虽然确实展现出抗炎、减重和降低胆固醇的效果，但脱离了现实生活的烟火气——这让人无法与家人共进晚餐、不能与朋友在酒吧小酌。为了探究限时进食在真实世界中的可行性，莎拉与 ZOE 团队开展了招募达 15 万人的大型间歇性断食研究（The Big IF Study）： - **10 小时弹性进食窗**：研究将进食窗口放宽至大多数人均可长期坚持的 10 小时（如早晨 10 点至晚上 8 点）。 - **两周见效的积极反馈**：受试者在两周内即报告精力水平提升、情绪改善，并观察到体重的自然下降。 - **无意识的热量削减**：即便实验明确告知受试者无需刻意节食，仅缩短进食窗口这一行为，就能让受试者在不知不觉中日均自然减少约 300 卡路里的摄入。 ### [57:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3472s) 限时进食的核心机制：热量缺口与独立代谢获益 针对营养学界长期争论的焦点——“间歇性断食本质上是否只是一种变相的热量限制（Calorie Restriction）”，莎拉给出了极其严谨的科学界定。不可否认，限时进食带来的主要益处（尤其是体重减轻）大部分源于进食窗口缩短导致的无意识热量摄入减少，且进食窗口越狭窄，体重下降的幅度通常越显著。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 限时进食（TRE）对人体健康的双重作用路径 accDescr: 区分由热量赤字带来的宏观益处与独立于热量的代谢生化改善 TRE["限时进食 (TRE)"] --> PathwayA["主要路径：无意识热量限制"] TRE --> PathwayB["独立机制：昼夜节律与代谢调整"] PathwayA --> A1["平均日均减少约 300 kcal"] A1 --> A2["体重与体脂下降"] PathwayB --> B1["改善血脂谱 (Blood Lipids)"] PathwayB --> B2["减轻全身慢性炎症"] PathwayB --> B3["提升代谢健康韧性"] ``` 然而，严格控制热量变量的等热量对照研究表明，即使两组受试者摄入完全相同的卡路里，将食物压缩在特定时间窗口内摄入的人群，在代谢指标、血脂水平和全身炎症标志物上依然展现出显著的独立获益。莎拉总结道，评价任何饮食模式的关键在于两点：其一，是否有扎实的循证医学证据；其二，是否具可执行性且能在生活中长期坚持。最新研究更进一步表明，除了进食窗口长短，维持进食模式的“一致性”（Consistency）同样至关重要——一天吃三餐、次日吃九餐、第三天又吃六餐的紊乱进食节奏，正在对代谢系统构成全新的潜在挑战。 ### [59:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3596s) 饮食规律性与“社交时差”对身体的隐形冲击 Sarah 博士深入探讨了进食模式的规律性对人体代谢的重要性。如果一个人某天只吃两顿，第二天突然变成四顿，身体就会陷入困惑：“等等，我平时明明已经适应了一天固定的进食节奏。”这种规律性对于吃零食的人来说尤为关键：如果你平时就有吃零食的习惯，只要选择健康营养的食物，并且确保在晚上 9 点之前吃完最后一份零食，那就完全没问题；反之，如果你本来就没有吃加餐的习惯，哪怕刚才听到了零食的诸多好处，也千万不要盲目开始吃零食，因为打乱饮食节奏反而得不偿失。 这种对“节律与一致性”的要求同样适用于睡眠——尽可能保持每天在同一时间入睡、同一时间起床。Sarah 介绍了她们在 ZOE PREDICT 项目中深入研究的“社交时差”（Social Jetlag）概念：所谓社交时差，是指一周之内作息规律的剧烈波动。许多年轻人和大学生在工作日按部就班作息，一到周末就通宵狂欢；或者像 Sarah 自己作为职场母亲，平时深夜工作照顾孩子、周末则拼命补觉。只要工作日与休息日的睡眠时长或入睡时间相差超过 1.5 小时，就已经构成了社交时差。ZOE 的研究数据表明，经历社交时差的人群往往会做出更糟糕的饮食选择，体内炎症指标更高，并且肠道微生物菌群构成也出现显著劣化。食物绝不能孤立看待，它始终与睡眠和生活节奏深度绑定。 - **社交时差界限**：工作日与周末之间的睡眠时间波动若超过 1.5 小时，即被定义为社交时差。 - **生理与行为连锁反应**：社交时差不仅导致更倾向于摄入高糖高脂食物，还直接关联机体全身性慢性炎症增加与肠道菌群失调。 --- ### [01:01:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3713s) 种子油恐慌、政客言论与社交媒体的眼球经济 对话随后切入当下广为流传的各种“营养学胡说八道”（Nutrabolics）。主持人 Steven 提到，最近社交媒体上关于“种子油”（Seed Oils）有害的争议铺天盖地。美国知名政治人物小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪（RFK Jr.）曾公开声称，种子油是食品中最不健康的成分之一，之所以泛滥全因政府高额补贴且成本低廉，它与全身系统性炎症及各类严重疾病直接挂钩，甚至建议全面用牛脂（Beef Tallow，在英国被称为 Dripping）等饱和脂肪来替代种子油，甚至还在售卖印有“让炸油再次变成牛脂”（Make Frying Oil Tallow Again）口号的 T 恤。听到这里，Sarah 忍不住笑出声来，直呼这简直是“胡扯之上的超级胡扯”。 Sarah 严肃地指出，种子油争议绝对高居伪科学胡话榜首。作为该领域拥有深厚研究积累的科学家，她明确表示：只要用严谨、正确的方法解读现有的临床证据，根本没有任何可信的数据能证明种子油对人体有害。英国最常见的种子油是菜籽油（Rapeseed Oil，美加地区称为 Canola Oil）和葵花籽油；美国最普遍的则是大豆油，其次是菜籽油和葵花籽油。然而，社交媒体与科学事实之间存在着残酷的昼夜之差——网红们高喊“种子油有毒、致癌、导致阿尔茨海默病”，这种极端的惊悚言论天然能赚足流量；而像 Sarah 这样理性、讲求事实平衡的“无聊科学家”如果说“种子油其实对你很好”，根本无法在算法中引发疯传。理性声音的缺席，正是公众被虚假信息裹挟的根源。 --- ### [01:05:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3933s) 剖析种子油伪科学：相关性谬误与体外实验的局限 Sarah 逐一拆解了反种子油阵营的核心论点。反方最典型的第一套说辞是拿宏观时间线做伪相关论证：他们宣称过去三五十年间人类种子油摄入量增加了上百倍，而与此同时肥胖、心血管疾病、癌症和认知障碍症的发病率也同步激增，因此断定种子油就是罪魁祸首。Sarah 反驳道，在过去的半个世纪里，人类的生活环境发生了天翻地覆的剧变——现代人体力活动骤减、长时间久坐，而且日常所摄入的种子油中约有 60% 实际上是来自高度加工的垃圾食品中（伴随着大量的精制糖和添加剂）。将整个社会环境和饮食结构的恶化单单归咎于种子油，完全是颠倒因果的混淆视听。 反方的第二个论点建立在抽象的生化通路假说上。他们常常纠结于种子油中高浓度的 Omega-6 脂肪酸（如亚油酸）与 Omega-3 脂肪酸的比例，声称高摄入 Omega-6 会在下游转化过程中产生促炎分子，从而诱发慢性炎症。Sarah 指出，这种在试管或培养皿里看似合理的推导，完全无法套用在真实的人体复杂系统上： > “人类是极其精妙复杂的机体，我们体内演化出了极其完备的调节机制，来应对炎症、控制氧化应激，并平抑食物带来的下游代谢反应。” 在严格受控的人类随机临床试验中，Omega-6 脂肪酸根本没有表现出促炎性；相反，现有可靠证据显示，合理摄入富含不饱和脂肪的种子油甚至有助于降低体内的循环炎症分子标志物，展现出抗炎和保护心血管的效果。 --- ### [01:08:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4101s) 被曲解的历史：悉尼心脏研究与反式脂肪真相 当 Steven 追问这种“种子油有毒论”最初是如何形成滚雪球效应时，Sarah 指出这往往源于对早期科研文献的恶意断章取义（Cherry-picking）。其中最常被反对者拿来当作杀手锏的，是 20 世纪 70 年代进行的“悉尼饮食心脏研究”（Sydney Diet Heart Study）。 在该试验中，经历过心血管急性事件（如心脏病发作）的男性受试者被随机分为两组：一组增加膳食中的种子油（Omega-6 脂肪酸）摄入，另一组则维持传统的高饱和脂肪饮食。最终随访数据显示，增加种子油摄入的组别健康结局反而更差。反对者以此断定种子油致命，但他们隐瞒了一个极其关键的技术背景：在 1970 年代，工业上为了使植物油固化耐保存，广泛采用了“部分氢化”（Partial Hydrogenation）工艺。这种工艺在加工种子油时不可避免地产生了大量的**工业反式脂肪**（Trans Fats）。受试者当年大量服下的并不是现代意义上的健康天然植物油，而是对心血管具有极强毒害作用的反式脂肪。这一历史遗留问题如今却被偷梁换柱，成了抹黑现代种子油的谣言工具。 ### [01:09:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4194s) 种子油真相与断章取义的“伪营养学” 莎拉·贝里（Sarah Berry）博士继续剖析针对种子油的种种谣言。很多攻击种子油的旧实验，实际上使用的是经过部分氢化（partial hydrogenation）的人造黄油（margarine）或脂肪抹酱。这种氢化加工过程产生了大量的反式脂肪（trans fats）。反式脂肪不仅会升高有害胆固醇、诱发机体炎症，而且属于明确有害健康的脂肪类别，正因如此，现代食品供应链早已全面剔除反式脂肪。那些旧研究中显示的恶劣健康后果，罪魁祸首是氢化过程带来的反式脂肪，根本不能代表今天人们所消费的普通种子油。利用这类陈旧特殊条件下的实验来抹黑现代种子油，正是网络上盛行的“伪营养学谎言”（nutribollocks）惯用的断章取义手段。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 种子油与牛油对健康影响的研究对比 accDescr: 对比历史上含反式脂肪的氢化人造黄油与现代纯正种子油及牛油的健康效应差异。 subgraph Historical["历史混淆因素"] A["部分氢化种子油 / 人造黄油"] --> B["产生大量反式脂肪"] B --> C["升高胆固醇与炎症反应"] end subgraph ModernEvidence["现代严谨临床研究证据"] D["现代纯正种子油"] --> E["富含有益不饱和脂肪酸"] E --> F["强效降低有害胆固醇与心血管风险"] G["牛油 (Beef Tallow)"] --> H["富含饱和脂肪与棕榈酸"] H --> I["导致更高胆固醇与心血管风险"] end ``` 针对缺乏对照或方法薄弱的流行病学观察，贝里博士详细阐述了金标准——随机对照试验（RCT）与荟萃分析（Meta-analysis）的运作机制。在严格的 RCT 试验中，受试者会被随机分配到干预组（如摄入种子油）与对照组（如摄入富含饱和脂肪的牛油 Beef Tallow），或者采用交叉实验：一个月摄入种子油，下一个月换成牛油，以此对比同一人体指标的客观差异。一项综合了约 42 项随机对照试验的荟萃分析显示，种子油与其它脂肪相比不仅没有任何危害，反而由于其特定脂肪成分具有强大的降低胆固醇效应，能显著降低心血管疾病发生率。反观备受某些健康网红追捧的牛油，则充斥着棕榈酸（palmitic acid）等已知对心血管不利的饱和脂肪。数十年前直接对比牛油与种子油的临床试验也毫无悬念：种子油在降低胆固醇、降低炎症及心血管风险指标上全面优于牛油。 - 证据断章取义：反种子油言论常常借用几十年前含有“反式脂肪”的氢化植物油数据来混淆视听。 - 荟萃分析结论：对约 42 项随机对照试验（RCT）的综合分析表明，现代种子油不仅无害，还能有效降低胆固醇与心血管疾病风险。 - 牛油 vs 种子油：牛油富含高比例的饱和脂肪酸（尤其是棕榈酸），在多次头对头对比试验中，种子油的表现均显著优于牛油。 --- ### [01:12:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4335s) 科学家的困境：为什么真相难以跑赢网络网红 谈及为种子油正名时的激动情绪，贝里博士坦言，自己作为常年在一线设计并开展临床试验的科研人员，每一次做试验都倾注了极大的心血与汗水（"sweat blood and tears"）。从伦理审批、受试者招募，到饮食干预方案的严密设计——因为饮食研究绝不能像给药那样简单递一颗药丸，必须精密平衡热量，考虑“拿掉什么、补进什么”以及如何严格控制日常背景饮食。历经千辛万苦得出严谨客观的科学数据，一转头却看到网络社交平台上充斥着毫无科学依据的伪科学言论漫天飞舞，这让真正埋头做研究的科学家感到无比挫败与愤怒。 史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）指出，当前信息传播的规律往往有利于那些极具舞台魅力、善于演讲售卖或拥有巨大流量平台的人，信息本身的真实性反倒成了次要因素。面对海量碎片化、去中心化的信息，史蒂芬分享了他个人的决策认知框架：不盲信单一信源，而是综合多位具有深厚权威、实践经验和科学严谨性专家的意见，在内心做自己的“荟萃分析”来寻找交叉共识，绝不因为某个有魅力的网红说了一句“往眼球里涂糖有好处”就盲从。贝里博士深表认同，并指出学术界的一大软肋在于：学者受到的专业训练是如何设计严谨试验、评估证据和向同行做汇报，却从未受过如何向大众通俗传播的培训。再加上科学家天生严谨，总是带着限定条件与谨慎态度说话（例如“根据目前的证据来看……”、“不排除十年后会有新修正”），相比那些用笃定语气传播极端论调的健康网红，严谨的真话往往缺乏煽动性与吸引力，使得一线科研人员在舆论场上的声量被极度边缘化。 - 学术试验的复杂性：营养干预试验远比药物试验繁琐，涉及严格的替代物控制、热量匹配与长周期的受试者管理。 - 科学表达的慎重原则：真正的一线研究者往往只对亲手做过的试验结论持有百分之百的确定性，对其他领域则保持谨慎与留有余地，而这常常被大众误读为“不自信”。 - 信息甄别框架：在信息泛滥的时代，个人需要建立基于“多方权威交叉验证”而非“单一网红信条”的理性认知逻辑。 --- ### [01:18:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4726s) 揭开乳制品的健康迷思 话题转向另一个充斥着大量虚假信息（Nutribollocks）的领域——乳制品（Dairy）。大众中流传极广的主流观念往往简单粗暴地认为“乳制品有害健康”。这种偏见的根源，很大程度上来自其与饱和脂肪的直接关联。从宏观营养学来看，饱和脂肪过量摄入确实对健康不利，而在英国等欧美国家的日常膳食中，乳制品恰恰是居民摄入饱和脂肪的最主要来源。许多人因此顺理成章地推导出一个伪逻辑：既然饱和脂肪不好，而乳制品富含饱和脂肪，那么所有乳制品就必然对身体有害。 贝里博士随即指出，这种“还原论”的推导方式完全忽略了食物基质（Food Matrix）的复杂性。乳制品根本不是一个单一均质的类别，它涵盖了牛奶、奶酪、酸奶、黄油等多种完全不同的食物形态，不能一概而论。不同乳制品的脂肪结构、发酵程度以及与其他微量营养素的结合方式截然不同，粗暴地将所有乳制品全盘否定，是营养学传播中典型的过度简化与误导。 ### [01:19:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4760s) 乳制品迷思与食物基质的魔力 在营养学界，将所有乳制品一概而论是一种极大的误导。Dr. Sarah Berry 强调，酸奶、黄油与牛奶对人体健康的影响天差地别，这取决于它们是液体还是固体、是否经过发酵等。将它们粗暴地绑在一起评估健康影响，就像把所有零食划为一类一样荒谬。 目前的科学认知表明，某些乳制品实际上对健康非常有益。诸如奶酪（Cheese）、原味希腊酸奶（Greek yogurt）和开菲尔（Kefir）等，它们经历了一个关键的加工步骤——发酵。发酵彻底改变了食物基质（Food matrix），重塑了食物的物理与化学结构，从而改变了人体的消化代谢路径。英国雷丁大学（Reading University）正在深入探索这一机制。令人惊奇的是，多项随机对照试验证明： - 奶酪与黄油的脂肪组成几乎一模一样，但黄油会显著升高血液中的胆固醇，而适量摄入奶酪（如每天吃几份）或优质酸奶，尽管其饱和脂肪含量很高，却**完全不会**升高血液胆固醇。 - 当然，这里指的是适度摄入，而非每天狂吞 300 克奶酪；如果是像吃吐司抹少许黄油那样的少量食用，通常也无需过分焦虑。 ### [01:21:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4870s) 坚果导致发胖？揭开卡路里标签的谎言 坊间普遍认为坚果热量高、会导致体重增加，但全部科学证据均不支持这一说法。流行病学数据显示，经常食用坚果的人往往拥有更低的身体质量指数（BMI）。尽管在英国只有约 10% 的人常吃坚果，美国更低至约 7%，这部分人可能本身整体饮食就更健康，但严格的临床随机试验同样证实：在饮食中增加坚果并不会导致长胖。 这一现象背后存在三大关键生理机制： 1. **热量吸收折价**：由于坚果坚硬的细胞壁与食物基质阻碍了脂肪酶的接触，大约 20% 到 30% 的脂肪与热量未经吸收便被直接排出体外。包装袋上标注的一份 170 卡路里，人体实际上平均仅吸收约 130 卡路里。 2. **喂养肠道菌群**：坚果中未消化的残渣到达大肠，为肠道微生物提供养分，有助于减少脂肪积聚（Adiposity）。 3. **极高的饱腹感与平缓血糖**：坚果能显著抑制随后的饥饿感，并削平餐后血糖波动的峰值。这些综合益处彻底抵消了其热量可能带来的增重风险。 ### [01:22:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4948s) 拆解胆固醇：“好”与“坏”的包裹标签学 针对网络上充斥的所谓“营养胡话”（Nutribollocks），Steven Bartlett 分享了自己去年体检的经历：医生曾警告他某项指标偏高，让他一度紧张。关于胆固醇到底是什么、是否存在绝对的“好与坏”，Sarah 解释道，血液中的胆固醇需要从两个完全不同的维度来看待：**饮食摄入的胆固醇**与**人体自身合成的胆固醇**。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 肝脏胆固醇代谢与转运机制 accDescr: 展示肝脏制造的胆固醇如何通过LDL转运至外周组织引发动脉粥样硬化，以及HDL如何将胆固醇逆向转运回肝脏代谢。 subgraph LiverProduction["肝脏合成"] L["肝脏 (Liver)"] --> P["打包胆固醇"] end subgraph Circulation["血液转运与组织"] P -- "LDL包裹标签" --> LDL["低密度脂蛋白胆固醇 (LDL)<br/>'坏胆固醇'"] P -- "HDL包裹标签" --> HDL["高密度脂蛋白胆固醇 (HDL)<br/>'好胆固醇'"] LDL --> T["外周组织与血管壁"] T -->|伴随炎症/氧化应激| A["动脉粥样硬化 / 血管硬化斑块"] HDL -->|逆向转运清理| L end ``` 人体肝脏如同一个全天候运转的化工厂，源源不断地从零合成胆固醇。合成后，肝脏会将它们打成两类不同的“邮包”，包裹上的“标签”决定了它们在体内的归宿： - **LDL（低密度脂蛋白，坏胆固醇）**：邮寄标签的目的地是外周组织和血管。若伴随体内炎症和氧化应激，LDL 便会沉积在血管内壁形成斑块，导致动脉粥样硬化（Atherosclerosis），日积月累将极大增加心脏病发作风险。 - **HDL（高密度脂蛋白，好胆固醇）**：包裹标签使其具备“逆向转运”能力，相当于血管清道夫，将多余的胆固醇运回肝脏处理清除。 Sarah 严正驳斥了节目曾经请过的“胆固醇否定论者”。她直言，全量科学证据极其确凿：**LDL 胆固醇升高与心血管疾病及全因死亡率的上升直接正相关**。 ### [01:25:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5129s) 膳食胆固醇被平反，真凶竟是饱和脂肪 公众对胆固醇最大的认知偏差来自“吃什么补什么”的误区。过去几十年，膳食指南极力限制鸡蛋等高胆固醇食物的摄入，担心它们会直接升高血液胆固醇。然而现代科学已经澄清：在日常摄入范围内，**食物本身含有的膳食胆固醇对血液循环中的胆固醇水平几乎没有影响**。每天吃 1 到 2 个鸡蛋对绝大多数人的 LDL 没有任何负面影响（除非走向极端，每天吃 10 个鸡蛋）。 真正操控人体血脂水平的幕后推手是： - **饱和脂肪（Saturated fat）**：它会刺激肝脏疯狂制造更多胆固醇，同时抑制肝脏清除外周胆固醇的能力。 - **高度精制碳水化合物（Refined carbohydrates）**：同样会刺激肝脏加速内源性胆固醇的合成。 ### [01:27:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5266s) 脂肪的三大门派与甘油三酯结构 谈及脂肪的本质，Sarah 解释称，人类日常摄入的脂肪中约有 98% 都以**甘油三酯（Triglyceride）**的形式存在。甘油三酯由一个甘油骨架挂载着三条脂肪酸链构成。正如氨基酸是蛋白质的积木，脂肪酸的组合形式决定了该脂肪的健康特性以及熔点等物理性质。 在营养学上，脂肪酸主要划分为三大阵营： 1. **饱和脂肪酸（Saturated fatty acids）**：化学结构上没有双键，碳原子被氢原子完全“饱和”。在物理特性上，它们的熔点通常较高，常温下多表现为硬质固态（如动物油脂、黄油）。 2. **单不饱和脂肪酸（Monounsaturated fatty acids）**：分子中含有一个不饱和双键。 3. **多不饱和脂肪酸（Polyunsaturated fatty acids）**：分子中含有两个或两个以上不饱和双键。后两类在常温下通常呈液态。正是由于生物化学与物理形态的根本差异，它们在进入人体代谢后会触发截然不同的生理级联反应。 ### [01:29:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5348s) 饱和脂肪 vs 不饱和脂肪：被误读的营养学争议与“替代物思维” Dr Sarah Berry 深入拆解了脂肪的生化特性及其健康影响。大多数动物脂肪在室温下呈固态，通常含有较高的饱和脂肪酸（Saturated Fatty Acids）。与之相对，单不饱和脂肪酸（MUFA）和多不饱和脂肪酸（PUFA）由于其生化结构和不同的熔点曲线，在室温下多呈液态。其中，多不饱和脂肪酸尤为特殊，因为它们是人体无法自行合成的必需脂肪酸（Essential Fatty Acids），比如植物种子油（Seed oils）中常见的 Omega-6。针对坊间认为“Omega-6 导致种子油有害”的言论，Dr Sarah Berry 再次予以辟谣。 总体而言，临床与流行病学证据明确表明，饱和脂肪摄入过量与心血管疾病及全因死亡率升高密切相关。然而，常有人质疑营养学家“根本不懂行”，并搬出某些大型 Meta 分析声称“饱和脂肪其实无害”。Dr Sarah Berry 指出，解读此类研究的关键在于营养学评价的核心逻辑——“替代物是什么（Instead of what）？”。在一项综合了数百项临床试验的研究中： - 用**全谷物碳水化合物**替代饱和脂肪，健康状况显著改善； - 用**单不饱和或多不饱和脂肪**替代饱和脂肪，健康状况显著改善； - 用**精制碳水化合物**替代饱和脂肪，健康风险**没有差异**。 正因如此，研究结论往往被媒体断章取义。大约 15 年前该 Meta 分析发布时，媒体呈现了截然相反的标题：严肃的循证媒体报道“研究再次证实饱和脂肪有害健康”，而博眼球的点击率媒体则大呼“营养学家全搞错了，我们被骗了，饱和脂肪完全无害”。其实两家媒体报道的是同一项研究，仅仅是因为后者抓住了“用精制碳水替代饱和脂肪没有改善”这一点来偷换概念。此外，食物基质（Food Matrix）也起着决定性作用：例如奶酪（Cheese）和黄油（Butter）的脂肪组成几乎完全一致，但由于发酵与基质结构的差异，它们对体内胆固醇的影响截然不同。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 饱和脂肪替代效应与健康影响 accDescr: 展示用不同营养素替代饱和脂肪时对心血管及机体健康的最终影响差异 SatFat["饮食中的饱和脂肪<br/>(Saturated Fat)"] subgraph Beneficial ["有益替代途径 (改善健康)"] PUFA_MUFA["多不饱和/单不饱和脂肪<br/>(植物油/坚果/鱼类)"] WholeGrains["全谷物碳水化合物<br/>(Whole Grains)"] end subgraph Neutral ["无效/等害替代途径 (无健康改善)"] RefinedCarbs["精制碳水化合物<br/>(精白米面/精制糖)"] end SatFat -->|"被替换为"| PUFA_MUFA --> ResGood1["心血管健康改善 / 死亡风险下降"] SatFat -->|"被替换为"| WholeGrains --> ResGood2["心血管健康改善 / 死亡风险下降"] SatFat -->|"被替换为"| RefinedCarbs --> ResNeutral["健康结局无显著差异 (同样有害)"] ``` --- ### [01:32:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5546s) 哪些饱和脂肪应该少吃？ 当谈到哪些食物所含的饱和脂肪基质对健康不利时，Dr Sarah Berry 建议应尽量限制大多数动物源性脂肪，但**发酵乳制品（如奶酪、酸奶）除外**： - **牛油（Beef Tallow）与猪油（Lard）**：现有证据一致表明，它们对人体健康并不友好。 - **大量黄油（Butter）**：大量食用会明显升高血脂水平。 - **肉类固有脂肪**：如萨拉米香肠（Salami）中清晰可见的白色肥肉脂肪，或牛排上的肥肉边缘。Dr Sarah Berry 建议在吃牛排等肉类时，主动切掉这些肉眼可见的肥肉部分。少量摄入没有问题，无需走向完全不吃的极端，但能去脂则去脂。 - **热带植物油**：例如棕榈油（Palm oil）饱和脂肪含量极高，已被证实会直接拉高血液胆固醇；椰子油（Coconut oil）在学术界虽仍有争议，但同样含有大量饱和脂肪。 --- ### [01:33:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5612s) Sarah 的五大核心饮食法则 被问及若只能总结出五条最核心的饮食原则时，Dr Sarah Berry 给出了极具可行性与包容性的建议： 1. **寻找能带来愉悦感的饮食模式（Find food that brings you pleasure）**：食物不仅是营养素，更是用来享受的。如果一套饮食方案无法带来快乐，它就无法长期坚持，而一致性与可持续性是健康的基石。即使像曲奇饼干（Cookies）这样的甜食，也无需彻底将其与健康对立并全盘剔除。 2. **关注进食的方式与节奏（Think about how you eat）**： - **放慢速度，多咀嚼**：研究显示，咀嚼 40 次与咀嚼 15 次相比，能显著影响饱腹感信号。咀嚼动作不仅在物理上研磨食物，更会向大脑传递神经中枢信号，并且通过直接拉长进食时间来防止过量摄入。 - **避免深夜进食**：尽量不要在晚上太晚吃东西。 - **控制进食窗口**：将全天的进食时间控制在 10 至 12 小时的窗口内（如早 8 点到晚 8 点）。 3. **回归基本盘（Go back to basics）**：不要过度纠结于某种单一的“超级食物”，而是打造一个平衡的餐盘——摄入充足的膳食纤维（全谷物、蔬菜、水果），摄入健康的油脂。橄榄油（Olive oil）是当之无愧的“油中之王与王后”，常规种子油亦可适量搭配。 4. **不要孤立看待饮食（Don't think of food in isolation）**：营养必须与生活方式的其他支柱结合考量，包括优质睡眠、压力管理和规律的身体活动。 5. **不要剥夺自己的饮食欲望，做加法而非做减法（Don't deny yourself anything; add in rather than take away）**：关注“我能为餐盘补充什么有益的成分”（例如加一把坚果或一份蔬菜），而不是满脑子想着“我必须戒掉什么”。偶尔吃一块曲奇饼干完全没问题。 - 48 岁的 Dr Sarah Berry 在列举第 5 条原则前突然卡壳，笑着自嘲自己正处于围绝经期（Perimenopause）的深渊之中，如同 90% 的经历者一样饱受“脑雾（Brain fog）”和记忆力减退的困扰，随后 Steven Bartlett 熟练地帮她复述了前 4 条原则。 --- ### [01:37:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5872s) 围绝经期与饮食：激素过山车下的健康挑战 Dr Sarah Berry 将话题转向更年期（Menopause）与饮食的交互作用。占全球 50% 的女性人口在生命历程中都必将经历这一阶段，这是一个伴随着机体剧烈震荡、失调以及巨大身心负担的过渡期。更年期会全方位影响机体对食物的代谢反应，并严重冲击睡眠、压力承受力和日常运动表现。 ZOE 针对更年期展开了深入的大规模研究。严格的医学定义上，“绝经（Menopause）”是指女性最后一次月经周期结束满一整年的那个时间节点；而在绝经到来前漫长的“围绝经期（Perimenopausal transition）”，女性体内的雌激素（Estrogen）及其它关键激素不再保持平稳周期，而是像坐过山车一般在日常生活中剧烈剧烈波动。正是这种内分泌的失衡与震荡，导致了代谢敏感性变化、脑雾等一系列身体症状，也使得女性在这一时期需要更加审慎地调整饮食与生活方式。 ### [01:39:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=5961s) 雌激素过山车与绝经期心血管代谢骤变 女性在进入围绝经期（Perimenopause，即绝经前的过渡期）时，雌激素水平并非平缓平稳地下滑，而是陷入了一场剧烈的“激素过山车”。雌激素在人体中拥有极为广泛的受体，几乎全身各类细胞——包括大脑神经元与血管内皮——都布满了雌激素受体。因此，围绝经期的剧烈波动以及绝经后（Postmenopause）雌激素的大幅匮乏，会对全身生理机能产生深远的系统性冲击。以心血管系统为例，绝经后女性遭遇心脏病发作的风险暴增至此前的五倍；除了自然的年龄增长因素外，雌激素保护作用的丧失是核心元凶。与此同时，腹部脂肪堆积（向心性肥胖）的风险也飙升了五倍，这与雌激素调控脂肪组织分布的机制被打破直接相关。 ZOE PREDICT 研究项目的大规模临床数据清晰揭示了这种生理断崖。在绝经前，女性在血压、胆固醇、血糖和胰岛素等诸多心血管疾病的中间危险因素指标上普遍显著优于同龄男性。然而，一旦跨入绝经门槛，女性的心血管指标急剧恶化，迅速“追平”甚至反超男性：不仅血压可能高过男性，低密度脂蛋白胆固醇（LDL-C，“坏胆固醇”）和总胆固醇水平更会在围绝经及绝经后陡增 25%。此外，代谢食物的方式也发生了根本变化，女性在餐后会经历更剧烈的餐后血糖震荡与餐后血脂高峰，彻底改变了原有的代谢稳态。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 围绝经期与绝经后机体病理生理机制变化 accDescr: 展现从雌激素波动与衰退到心血管、代谢及脂质分布改变的传导链条。 subgraph Hormone["激素变化"] A["围绝经期：雌激素剧烈波动（过山车）"] --> B["绝经后：雌激素显著匮乏"] end subgraph Impact["生理系统受损"] B --> C["全身受体失活<br/>（大脑、血管等细胞）"] C --> D["心血管风险骤增<br/>（心脏病风险升至5倍）"] C --> E["脂质代谢紊乱<br/>（LDL胆固醇上升25%）"] C --> F["脂肪重分布<br/>（腹部脂肪堆积风险达5倍）"] C --> G["餐后稳态受损<br/>（餐后血糖与血脂波动加剧）"] end ``` - **心血管发病风险**：绝经后女性心脏病发作几率增加 5 倍，中间代谢风险指标迅速追平甚至劣于男性。 - **坏胆固醇恶化**：围绝经与绝经后阶段，体内低密度脂蛋白（LDL）胆固醇上升约 25%。 - **向心性肥胖**：因脂肪组织分布机制改变，腹部脂肪堆积风险提升至 5 倍。 - **餐后代谢波动**：进食后体内的葡萄糖与甘油三酯波动幅度显著放大。 --- ### [01:41:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6108s) 真实症状图谱：被忽视的大脑迷雾与“潮热”误区 围绝经期给女性日常生活带来的实际负担远超公众想象。ZOE 针对 70,000 名受试者的大规模调研表明，高达 99% 的围绝经期女性至少经历过一种更年期症状，66% 的人同时承受着 12 种或更多的症状困扰。这种身心煎熬造成了极其沉重的社会代价——相关调查证实，有 10% 的职场女性因无法承受更年期症状对生活质量的摧残而被迫提前离开职场。女性平均绝经（即月经彻底停止）的年龄约为 51 岁，但整个围绝经过渡期往往持续 2 至 10 年之久，通常在 47 岁左右便已悄然显现，包含脑雾（Brain fog）、焦虑、记忆力减退、易怒、性欲减退以及代谢骤变等多达 50 种临床公认症状。 大众文化对更年期往往存在巨大的认知偏差。当主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）被问到对更年期的第一印象时，脱口而出的是“潮热（Hot flushes）”，随后才提到脑雾。莎拉·贝里博士指出，这恰恰反映了科学传播的脱节：“潮热反而是发生率最低的典型症状之一”。在真实研究数据中，仅有约 40% 的女性经历潮热，但饱受脑雾、记忆力下降与广泛性焦虑等神经认知症状折磨的女性却高达 85%。长年以来，绝经健康领域的科研投入严重匮乏，使得最普遍的大脑认知障碍被严重边缘化，直到近年来研究的深入才让这些隐形痛苦重回视野。 - **症状普遍性**：99% 的围绝经期女性经历至少一种症状；66% 面临 12 种以上重叠症状。 - **职场流失率**：约 10% 的女性因更年期症状无法耐受而彻底辞职离开劳动力市场。 - **认知错位**：公众普遍聚焦的潮热发生率仅约 40%，而脑雾及神经情绪症状在受试群体中的发生率高达 85%。 - **过渡时间线**：平均完全绝经年龄为 51 岁，围绝经期往往从 47 岁前后开始，病程可长达 2 到 10 年。 --- ### [01:44:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6286s) 商业收割：“更年期清洗”与缺乏证据的保健品 随着更年期话题逐渐打破社会禁忌，商业市场迅速涌现出一种危险的剥削现象——“更年期清洗（Meno-washing）”。由于 45% 的女性表示自身症状极其痛苦、已经到了“只要管用愿意尝试任何东西”的绝望境地，不良商家便借机大发横财。贝里博士指着手边的茶杯讽刺道：“只要在产品前冠上‘Meno’（更年期）的前缀，哪怕只是一包普普通通的约克郡红茶（Yorkshire Tea），改叫‘更年期调理茶’（Meno tea），就能在毫无临床科学证据支撑的情况下，卖出比平时贵 10 倍的暴利价格。” 这种收割现象已引起公共健康领域的警惕。一项媒体披露的调查数据显示，30% 的更年期女性正尝试草本偏方，30% 在服用各类维生素，而 51% 的人正试图通过某种食疗或饮食手段来替代激素替代疗法（HRT）。贝里博士严正指出，目前市面上泛滥的绝大多数“更年期营养补剂”均缺乏严谨的人体试验与循证医学证据。除了经医生评估后采用正规的激素替代疗法（HRT/MHT）之外，目前最具科学依据、最稳妥的非药物应对策略，依然是转向整体高质量的健康饮食模式，而非盲目为打着“更年期专用”旗号的营销噱头买单。 - **价格虚高与剥削**：产品冠以更年期概念即可溢价数倍至十倍，精准收割处于极度痛苦中的女性群体。 - **盲目替代疗法数据**：30% 的更年期女性尝试草药疗法，30% 使用复合维生素，51% 依赖某种饮食疗法作为 HRT 的替代方案。 - **科学建议基石**：拒绝无实证支持的高价补剂，科学依托正规医疗指导下的 HRT 治疗，结合经过验证的整体膳食模式调整。 --- ### [01:46:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6366s) 心理困局与更年期“完美风暴” 斯蒂芬·巴特利特提到，与他交流过的许多女性都将更年期形容为一段极度混乱、失去掌控的人生阶段。原有的生活经验彻底失效——哪怕像以前一样规律去健身房、吃干净健康的食物，身体依然不受控制地走样，常常让人陷入“自己是不是疯了”的自我怀疑与情感孤立（Gaslighting）。贝里博士对此深表认同，并回顾了以往家庭和社会的集体沉默：上一代人对于月经、更年期讳莫如深，即使母亲生前偶尔提及燥热，母女间也从未展开过真正坦诚的交流。所幸在达维娜·麦考尔（Davina McCall）等公众人物的勇敢呼吁下，社会羞耻感正在消退，女性终于可以公开讨论自身的生理困境。 更年期本质上是一场袭击身心的“完美风暴”： 1. **睡眠断崖**：睡眠质量遭受毁灭性破坏。贝里博士以亲身经历坦言，每晚往往只能断断续续睡四五个小时，这种疲惫感宛如回到了初为人母、日夜照料新生儿的极端状态，只有偶尔睡个好觉时才觉得自己“像个超人（Superwoman）”。 2. **心理防御崩塌**：长期缺觉与脑雾、记忆衰退交织，剧烈蚕食着成熟女性的职场自信与心理健康，诱发焦虑与抑郁情绪。 3. **代谢失控与食欲篡改**：激素指令直接改变了脂肪的分布位置，即便热量摄入和生活习惯毫无变化，脂肪也会定向聚集到腹部。与此同时，下丘脑食欲调控信号受损，ZOE 的科学观察证实，绝经后女性对高糖、高精制碳水食物的渴求显著高于绝经前。 在这场交织着极度疲惫、情绪低落与生理异化的恶性循环中，要求女性保持自律去高强度运动或精细化管理饮食显得尤为严苛。然而，贝里博士强调，虽然这恰恰是人生中最艰难的关口，但也是通过科学营养夺回身体掌控权、构筑下半生健康防线“最至关重要的时刻”。 ### [01:49:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6544s) 更年期的多重身心危机与性欲减退的沉重负担 莎拉·贝里教授（Dr Sarah Berry）指出，步入围绝经期和绝经期时，女性的胆固醇和血压往往会上升，腹部堆积的脂肪组织还会持续释放出有害的促炎化学物质。正是在这个节点，女性最需要审视并管理自己的体力活动、饮食结构与压力水平，然而这偏偏也是人生中最具挑战性、最身心俱疲的时期。史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此深表共鸣，感慨在异性恋婚姻中，当丈夫完全无法体会体内荷尔蒙经历如此剧烈而混乱的变化时，女性在应对情绪剧变、身材走形以及性欲衰退等问题上，需要承受难以想象的压力与孤独感。 贝里教授强调，提高公众特别是男性的认知至关重要，只有这样伴侣之间才能给予足够的理解与支持。根据 ZOE 的长期追踪与问卷调查，他们不仅监测症状的发生频率，更细致评估各个症状对生活质量的具体冲击。数据显示，性欲减退虽然并不一定是发生率最高的生理症状，但在围绝经期和绝经后期女性的心目中，它却被评为“对生活造成最沉重负担”的首要问题。史蒂文一针见血地指出，这其实是一个连锁反应——当一个女性长期睡眠匮乏、腹部隆起、不再觉得自己性感迷人，且情绪极度低落时，“不论体内是否有化学层面的激素下降导致性欲减退，你根本不会想做爱，你只想赶紧去睡觉。” - 绝经期的病理变化：伴随雌激素骤降，女性通常会出现胆固醇与血压升高，腹部脂肪增多并释放有害炎症因子。 - 最具破坏性的症状：性欲下降虽然常见度不是第一，但在主观生活质量破坏度评估中，被女性列为最具负担感的症状。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 更年期症状与生活质量相互恶化的恶性循环 accDescr: 展示了激素骤降如何引发腹部脂肪增加、睡眠障碍、疲惫与形象改变，最终导致性欲减退与沉重心理负担。 subgraph Hormonal_Shift["荷尔蒙与生理剧变"] H1["雌激素与激素急剧波动"] --> H2["胆固醇与血压上升"] H1 --> H3["腹部内脏脂肪堆积"] H3 --> H4["释放促炎因子 / 身体不适"] end subgraph Mental_Physical["身心状态下滑"] H1 --> M1["严重睡眠障碍与疲惫"] H3 --> M2["自我形象改变 / 不觉性感"] M1 & M2 --> M3["情绪低落与焦虑压力"] end subgraph Impact["亲密关系与生活负荷"] M1 & M2 & M3 --> L1["性欲显著减退 (Libido drop)"] L1 --> L2["夫妻/伴侣沟通障碍与压力"] L2 --> L3["评为生活质量负担感最高的症状"] end ``` ### [01:51:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6665s) 激素替代疗法、健康饮食干预与“更年期商业炒作” 针对正在经历更年期的女性，贝里教授分享了自己的应对之道。她坦言自己正在接受激素替代疗法（HRT），但她也明确提醒大家，HRT 绝非适合所有人的万能解药。有些女性因癌症风险存在禁忌证而无法服用，有些人则自主选择不使用，即便使用了 HRT，也无法彻底消除所有困扰——例如她自己即便用药，睡眠质量依然很差。不过，大量前沿医学证据证实，HRT 在缓解多种潮热盗汗等生理症状以及改善胆固醇、血压和腹部脂肪等代谢指标方面，确实具有明确的积极作用。 除了医疗手段，改善生活方式同样蕴含着巨大的干预潜力。ZOE 开展了一项为期 12 至 18 周的亚组干预研究，让受试女性转变为多样化植物摄入、高纤维和地中海式饮食模式。研究发现，饮食质量得到提升的女性，其更年期综合征的发生频率和严重程度大幅降低了 35%。虽然该研究尚未设置平行对照组，但已有多项独立的随机对照临床试验（RCT）表明，采用地中海饮食干预的女性，症状也普遍减少了约 30%。 然而，贝里教授对市面上泛滥的“更年期清洗（Menowashing）”和保健品营销乱象发出了严厉警告。许多女性在绝望和痛苦中极易沦为不良商家的猎物，耗费重金去购买毫无科学根据的“灵丹妙药”，反而挤占了真正有益健康饮食或健身房会员的开支。她指出，除了一种名为“大豆异黄酮（Soy Isoflavones）”的成分外，几乎没有任何补充剂能够提供持续可靠的临床证据支持。大豆异黄酮因其化学结构与人体雌激素极其相似，能与体内的雌激素受体结合，发挥温和的雌激素样调节效应。英美人群日常饮食中的大豆异黄酮摄入量平均仅约 1 毫克/天，而在中国等东亚国家，天然饮食中的日均摄入量可高达 70 毫克左右，这正是远东地区女性更年期症状整体发生率显著低于西方的重要原因之一。 - 饮食干预的惊人降幅：ZOE 的追踪调查与多项地中海饮食 RCT 试验均证实，转向优质饮食模式可使更年期症状减轻 30% 至 35%。 - 大豆异黄酮的机制与摄入差异：作为植物雌激素，大豆异黄酮能与人体雌激素受体结合；英美日均摄入仅 1 毫克，中国等东亚膳食日均约 70 毫克，能温和缓解大部分人的更年期不适。 ### [01:55:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6921s) 基础健康状况与更年期症状的关联性 史蒂文询问，一个人在进入更年期前的基础健康水平，是否能够预测其后续遭遇症状的剧烈程度。贝里教授证实，流行病学和问卷关联数据清晰地表明，原本就处于肥胖状态、平素饮食质量较差、长期缺乏体力活动或有吸烟习惯的女性，在进入更年期后，报告的严重症状数量与发生率往往显著更高。不过她也严谨地补充说明，目前掌握的这些数据主要属于关联性分析（Association data），尚不能直接推导为绝对的因果关系，但无论如何，维持良好的机体代谢基底无疑是构筑抵御激素震荡屏障的明智之举。 ### [01:56:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6963s) 赞助商赞助插播：ZOE 肠道健康与 LinkedIn 招聘平台 播客随后切入两则赞助商播报： - 史蒂文分享了自己此前长期忽视肠道微生态健康的经历，直到邀请了蒂姆·斯佩克特教授（Professor Tim Spector）与莎拉·贝里教授做客播客后，他才深刻意识到肠道微生物组是通往全面健康的门户，进而投资了 ZOE。他向听众推荐 ZOE 拥有全球顶尖的微生物组数据库、高精度的居家检测套件与个性化营养方案，并提供专属 10% 优惠码“STEVEN10”。 - 史蒂文以旗下公司 Flight Story 的招聘经验切入，强调企业成败的核心在于精准雇佣。LinkedIn 拥有强大的招聘数据与画像匹配能力，能够洞察应聘者在传统职位描述之外的独特技能与价值观契合度，并覆盖了每周高达 1.71 亿名虽未积极投递但愿意接纳新机遇的潜在优秀人才。 ### [01:57:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=7069s) 远离虚假健康焦虑：在改变中寻找价值与快乐 重新回到对谈后，史蒂文以幽默的口吻尊称其为“贝里教授”，并抛出了一个总结性问题：在漫长的讨论中，有哪些最重要的话题是他们本应探讨却遗漏掉的？ 贝里教授沉思片刻后回答，他们其实已经涵盖了极为庞大且深度的营养学内容，但若要向大众提炼核心心法，最重要的原则首先是“寻找最适合你自身生活方式、并且能让你真正乐在其中的方法”。唯有享受其中，健康习惯才能长久延续。其次，她极其严肃地告诫公众，必须时刻警惕互联网与社交媒体上铺天盖地的虚假信息与伪科学。最后，贝里教授直言批评了当前病态的极端“健康优化（Health optimization）”狂热——各种网红打着健康旗号鼓吹微小的行为改造，宣称能带来奇迹般的代谢或长寿收益。她提醒大家：在生活里做出任何改变之前，一定要先权衡这项改变所带来的实际健康获益，是否大到足以抵消它对你正常生活节奏与幸福感所造成的扰乱；如果代价巨大而获益微乎其微，那就完全不值得盲从。 ### [01:58:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=7124s) 牺牲生活乐趣去换取微小健康收益的误区 Dr Sarah Berry 强调，在追求健康的过程中必须保持理性权衡。如果在日常生活中为了某个健康指标（无论是降胆固醇还是增加能量）做出了极其巨大的牺牲和生活方式改变，但最终带来的改善只有 1%，那么这种打破生活平衡的做法根本不值得。她在学校门口接送孩子时，经常听到其他妈妈焦虑地讨论："天哪，我读到了某篇报道，所以我打算这样做；虽然过程会极其痛苦艰难，但据说对某项健康有好处。" 面对这种心态，Sarah 感到非常惋惜，因为人们在过度追求微弱收益的同时，彻底剥夺了自己的生活乐趣。 --- ### [01:59:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=7177s) 学术界、食品工业与政府政策的三方协作构想 当被问及希望看到未来世界发生怎样的改变时，Sarah 指出，最理想的状态是科学家、食品工业界以及政策制定者能够紧密携手合作。当前公众舆论和互联网阴谋论常常将食品工业彻底妖魔化，脑海中总浮现出一个身穿西装的邪恶高管坐在董事会里一边数钱一边冷笑，处心积虑想让无辜儿童上瘾、患上神经发育障碍等各种疾病。Sarah 直言自己无法评价企业的盈利动机，但坚信如果想真正解决市面上食品不健康的问题，食品工业就必须与学术界展开深度合作。 与技术革新同样关键的是自下而上的社会根基与政策引导。政府需要承担起核心责任，重回基础教育层面： - 在学校普及烹饪技能教育，教会孩子亲手做饭。 - 全面提升学校配餐标准，提供货真价实的健康午餐。 - 在课堂上教授营养学基础知识，让下一代清晰辨别健康与不健康食品。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 三方协作改善公共饮食健康架构图 accDescr: 展示政策制定者、食品工业与科研学术界如何协同推动全民饮食健康变革。 subgraph Governance["政府与政策制定者"] A["强制性法规与政策约束"] B["基础营养教育与健康校餐"] end subgraph Industry["食品工业界"] C["重构配方与生产更健康的食品"] D["提供研究经费与产业资源"] end subgraph Academia["学术科研界"] E["开展严格独立的临床试验"] F["提供客观科学证据与建议"] end subgraph Outcome["社会终极目标"] G["改善全民代谢健康与饮食生态"] end Governance -->|"制定规范 / 资助基础研究"| Industry Governance -->|"融入学校教育 / 改善校餐"| G Industry -->|"合规研发 / 接受监督"| Outcome Industry -->|"资助受独立监管的科研项目"| Academia Academia -->|"科学证据指导工业与政策"| Industry Academia -->|"提供循证健康指引"| Governance Academia -->|"转化为公众营养干预"| Outcome ``` --- ### [02:01:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=7267s) 破除“产业赞助即腐败”的媒体恐慌与科研经费现实 Sarah 严正警告，当前社会正陷入一种极其危险的恐惧氛围中。媒体与部分网络红人不断煽动对立，声称任何接受食品工业资助的研究都必然存在偏见、腐败且不可信。但依据她数十年来的亲身经历以及同行实验室的运作现实，事实绝非如此。营养科学家要探寻如何让食物更健康，必须开展严格的大型人体临床试验，然而独立政府机构向营养学领域拨发的资金少得可怜。学者们为了争取极其微薄的科研基金，不得不花费海量时间撰写标书，经历一次又一次的无情驳回。 在接受行业科研赞助时，大学有极严苛的合规防线： - 工业资助方被完全禁止介入实验设计、数据分析及学术论文的发表过程，高校机制能绝对确保科研独立性。 - 媒体名人制作的所谓“深度揭秘”，将拿过企业经费的学者打成不可信的“学术傀儡”，使营养科学家群体陷入动辄得咎的恐惧，严重阻碍了前沿探索。 - Steven Bartlett 也对此表示赞同，指出单靠食品企业自律绝不可能实现整体改善；正如同当年烟草管控一样，通过室内全面禁烟、强制烟盒警示等强硬法令，才最终重塑了整个社会规范。 --- ### [02:04:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=7481s) 临别问答：简单生活的智慧与照顾重病母亲的四年 节目的压轴传统是由上一位未知名嘉宾留给下一位嘉宾一个问题。留给 Sarah 的问题是：“有什么事情是你坚信不疑，但你所在意的一众聪明人却深表反对的？” Sarah 坦然回答，她坚信“生活其实可以非常简单”。人这一生最重要的事情无非两样：建立良好的人际连接，以及在平凡生活中发现快乐，不要把事情想得太复杂。如果自己去世后墓碑上只写着一句“Sarah 是一个很好的人（Sarah was a nice person）”，她就会感到无比欣慰与满足。然而，在她平时接触的顶尖知识分子和成功人士圈子里，充斥着野心与成就焦虑，许多人极度执着于下一个远大目标和宏伟影响，绝不甘心墓碑上只留下如此平淡的评价。 这种返璞归真的世界观，源于 Sarah 曾做出的一个重大人生决定： - 她曾彻底中断科研事业长达整整四年，全职陪伴并居家照顾患有进行性神经退行性疾病的母亲。 - 眼睁睁看着母亲一步步丧失说话、进食、社交以及所有正常生活机能，彻底改变了 Sarah 对人生的权重认知。 - 这段照护经历让她学会“不再为生活琐事焦虑抓狂（not sweat the small stuff）”，并真切懂得了人生的脆弱与宝贵。 - 尽管她来自工薪家庭，父母 14 岁便辍学做工，她成为家族里第一位大学生，并最终晋升为正教授（就在节目录制前一天刚刚举行了晋升庆典），但她人生中最自豪的成就不是成为名校教授，而是全心照护母亲走完的那四年。 - 她之所以能每天保持充沛的科研热情，并非出于虚妄的救世主情怀，而是单纯热爱科学探索本身，并将工作视为自己每天都在享受的“业余爱好”。 ### [02:09:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=7748s) 25年科研耕耘与生活哲思：对话尾声的致敬与共鸣 在访谈进入尾声之际，主持人 Steven Bartlett 对 Dr. Sarah Berry 表达了由衷的敬意与感谢。虽然他们在前文探讨过不应把外在世俗成就置于生活与健康之上，但 Steven 依然感慨 Dr. Sarah Berry 在过去 25 年间所取得的科研成就极其惊人。她不仅通过第一手前沿科研成果深刻改写了营养学界的面貌，如今更通过科普传播与大众内容，直接影响并改善了数以百万计普通人的日常生活。Steven 坦言，自己在这个演播室里日复一日地访谈过大量营养学与健康专家，但在节目录制前他就发信息给团队感叹：Dr. Sarah Berry 带来的第一手原创科学研究依然让他耳目一新，大量认知甚至完全颠覆并刷新了他以往的认知储备，这对于每天做深度对话的他来说是极其难得的体验。 除了扎实严谨的科学事实，Steven 还特别提到 Dr. Sarah Berry 对生活方式与人生哲学的通透见解——如何在现代快节奏中平衡饮食、工作、心态与家庭——给予了他极大的启发与鼓舞。Dr. Sarah Berry 对此充满共鸣并深表谢意，她表示能够畅快探讨自己深耕一生且始终热爱的事业是一件极其愉悦的事情，两人欣然相约未来必将再度坐下来展开更深入的对话。 - **25年一线深耕**：Dr. Sarah Berry 长期主导包含 PREDICT 项目在内的大型深度营养学临床试验，其第一手科研数据直接挑战了许多流传已久的刻板营养教条。 - **全新科学认知**：即便是长期高频接触全球顶尖专家的播客团队，也由衷承认本期对话带来的第一手研究维度是前所未见且极具冲击力的。 - **身心一体的哲学视角**：健康的本质不仅是卡路里或营养素的机械计算，更是兼顾情绪、作息、生活节奏与人际关系的系统性生命哲学。 --- ### [02:10:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=7813s) 尾声广告：1% 日记与微习惯的力量 访谈结束后，Steven Bartlett 带来了关于微小习惯与持久改变的收尾分享。他援引数据指出，大约 80% 的新年目标在进入 2 月份时便已彻底宣告失败，其根本原因在于人们往往过度聚焦于遥不可及的宏大终点，却忽略了每一天真正在推进行程的细微日常动作。生活中的许多关键动作正如“随手省下一美元”一样，做起来极为简单，但不去做也同样轻而易举。长期的巨大质变，恰恰源于每天迈出的一小步以及那 1% 的微小进步。 为了帮助大家克服目标倦怠并建立持久的执行力，Steven 介绍了他们开发的“1% 日记”（The 1% Diary）。这是一本为期 90 天的规划手账，核心理念是引导使用者告别结果焦虑，转而专注于积累每日微小的胜利，从而在时间的复利下实现稳步蜕变。同时，该产品还连接着“1% 互助社群”，让同行的践行者能够彼此督促与启发。该日记在去年 11 月首发上线后迅速售罄，目前正开启第二轮现货发售。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: The 1 Percent Habit Framework accDescr: Flow showing how focusing on daily micro actions and a 90-day journal beats the trap of high failure rate resolutions. subgraph Trap["常见目标陷阱"] A["聚焦宏大终极目标"] --> B["80% 目标在二月前失败"] end subgraph Solution["1% 核心思维"] C["每天微小改进 1%"] --> D["90天手账追踪细小胜利"] D --> E["社群互相督促保持一致性"] E --> F["产生长期复合性复利改变"] end Trap -.->|转变为| Solution ``` - **失败率数据**：高达 80% 的新年目标在 2 月份即被放弃，主因是缺乏可持续的日常小习惯支撑。 - **1% 日记规格**：90 天周期设计，专注每日微习惯与日常复盘，配备专属互助社区以增强自律与动力。 ## Notable quotes > [09:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=586s) a nation of crisp lovers — Steven Bartlett > [52:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3164s) If a food is too healthy to be enjoyed, it's just not healthy at all — Dr Sarah Berry > [01:01:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3713s) Make Frying Oil Tallow Again — Steven Bartlett > [01:05:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=3933s) 人类是极其精妙复杂的机体，我们体内演化出了极其完备的调节机制，来应对炎症、控制氧化应激，并平抑食物带来的下游代谢反应。 — Dr Sarah Berry > [01:12:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=4335s) sweat blood and tears — Dr Sarah Berry > [01:41:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6108s) 潮热反而是发生率最低的典型症状之一 — Dr Sarah Berry > [01:44:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=6286s) 只要在产品前冠上‘Meno’的前缀，哪怕只是一包普普通通的约克郡红茶，改叫‘更年期调理茶’，就能在毫无临床科学证据支撑的情况下，卖出比平时贵 10 倍的暴利价格。 — Dr Sarah Berry > [02:04:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=7481s) Sarah was a nice person — Dr Sarah Berry > [02:04:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE&t=7481s) not sweat the small stuff — Dr Sarah Berry ## Mentioned Dr Sarah Berry, Steven Bartlett, King's College London, ZOE, PREDICT, Pringles, Prof. Ciarán Forde, The Lancet, Almond Board of California, Slumber Study, Ozempic, The Big IF Study, Robert F. Kennedy Jr. (RFK Jr.), Sydney Diet Heart Study, Reading University, Davina McCall, Tim Spector, Flight Story, LinkedIn, The 1% Diary ## Video description Dr Sarah Berry is a Professor in the Department of Nutritional Sciences at King's College London and Chief Scientist at ZOE. She is also the lead nutritional scientist on the PREDICT program, the world’s largest in-depth nutritional research programme. 00:00 Intro 02:04 Two Decades Studying the Impact of Food on Our Health 04:52 What Is the Food Matrix and How Does It Affect Our Health? 07:03 Why Do We Need Processed Food? 08:15 When Is Processed Food Bad? 11:09 How Long Does It Take for My Brain to Realise I’m Eating? 11:54 Does the Food Industry Engineer Food to Be Highly Palatable? 14:04 The Importance of Eating Slowly 19:43 Research on Almonds and Why They Don’t Fully Break Down 26:15 The Role of Fiber in Diet and Health 29:00 Cardiovascular Disease and the Link to Unhealthy Snacks 32:51 Is There a Knock-On Effect From Having One Snack? 36:55 Does It Matter How Often We Eat? 39:05 Is Eating at Night Bad for You? 43:45 Sleep Is the Pinnacle 48:01 How to Handle Sleep When You’re a Parent 50:13 Stress and Its Effect on Eating 52:44 Sarah Still Makes Bad Choices 54:21 What Does Sarah Think of Diets? 57:52 Sarah’s Thoughts on Fasting and Calorie Restriction 01:00:44 What Is Social Jet Lag? 01:18:46 The Lies About Dairy 01:21:10 Myths About Nuts 01:22:28 Other Lies We Are Told 01:22:40 What Is Cholesterol? 01:27:46 What Is a Saturated Fat? 01:32:26 What Foods Contain Saturated Fats? 01:33:32 Sarah’s Principles for Eating 01:34:53 Why Does Chewing More Have an Impact? 01:37:52 Menopause and Diet 01:42:29 When Do Perimenopausal Symptoms Occur? 01:45:48 The Confusion and Gaslighting Around Menopause 01:51:05 Advice for Women Going Through Menopause 01:55:21 Does Health Affect the Level of Symptoms in Menopause? 01:56:03 Ads 01:57:49 What Haven’t We Talked About? 02:00:32 How Can We Make the World Better? 02:04:41 What Is Something That People Disagree With? Follow Dr Sarah: Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/QfpwquIcqQb Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/A2oDxYJcqQb Independent Fact Check: https://stevenbartlett.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/01/DOAC-Dr-Sarah-Berry-literature.pdf 🚀The 1% Diary is back - and it won’t be around for long, so act fast! https://bit.ly/1-Diary-Megaphone-ad-reads My new book! 'The 33 Laws Of Business & Life' is out now - https://g2ul0.app.link/DOACBook You can purchase the The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: Second Edition, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb Follow me: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Shopify - https://shopify.com/bartlett ZOE - http://joinzoe.com with code STEVEN10 for 10% off Linkedin Jobs - https://www.linkedin.com/doac [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=eOnIWDMNyfE)

[9:46] Steven Bartlett: a nation of crisp lovers [52:44] Dr Sarah Berry: If a food is too healthy to be enjoyed, it's just not healthy at all [61:53] Steven Bartlett: Make Frying Oil Tallow Again [65:33] Dr Sarah Berry: 人类是极其精妙复杂的机体，我们体内演化出了极其完备的调节机制，来应对炎症、控制氧化应激，并平抑食物带来的下游代谢反应。 [72:15] Dr Sarah Berry: sweat blood and tears [101:48] Dr Sarah Berry: 潮热反而是发生率最低的典型症状之一 [104:46] Dr Sarah Berry: 只要在产品前冠上‘Meno’的前缀，哪怕只是一包普普通通的约克郡红茶，改叫‘更年期调理茶’，就能在毫无临床科学证据支撑的情况下，卖出比平时贵 10 倍的暴利价格。 [124:41] Dr Sarah Berry: Sarah was a nice person [124:41] Dr Sarah Berry: not sweat the small stuff

[2:04] Dr. Sarah Berry: We're now able to collect data at a scale, breadth, depth, and precision that we've never been able to before that's allowing us to put together all of those pieces of the puzzle to start to see a clearer picture. [19:43] Dr. Sarah Berry: When you're swallowing within that what we call a macro particle, you've got thousands of cells. They're intact... so they're what we call a very low bioaccessibility. [24:00] Dr. Sarah Berry: The difference in the metabolic response in that following six hours after having either the large traditional oats or these finely ground oats is enormous... We see about a 50% higher response from the ground oats versus the large oats. [35:16] Dr. Sarah Berry: Every cell in our body has its little body clock... and if we're eating out of sink with those clocks... we process the food slightly differently, we metabolize it slightly differently, and it may have a different impact on our health. [43:45] Dr. Sarah Berry: Sleep affected metabolic responses as much as the macronutrient content of the meal... If they'd had a bad night sleep, their post-meal glucose response so after breakfast was a lot higher than if they'd had a good night's sleep. [52:44] Dr. Sarah Berry: If a food is too healthy to be enjoyed, it's just not healthy at all. Food is there to bring us joy, it's to bring us pleasure, it's part of our emotions, it's part of our culture, it's part of our social connections. [72:15] Dr. Sarah Berry: I will always say to students I'm teaching, 'What I'm telling you now is based on what the evidence shows now. In 10 years' time, I might be totally wrong.'... But as scientists, that's something else we always caveat with, and I think sometimes that's difficult for the general public. [105:48] Steven Bartlett: it seems to be the only time people talk about hot flushes. [105:48] Steven Bartlett: All the old rules of just hit the gym and eat a bit healthier seem to go out the window because there's something deeper at play in your body... people started thinking they were just going crazy a little bit. [108:01] Dr. Sarah Berry: When I get a good night's sleep, Stephen, I feel like Superwoman... I'm getting four or five hours sleep, then I wake up. [111:05] Dr. Sarah Berry: Soy isoflavones are a particular chemical that are found in some foods... a chemical that has a structure very similar to estrogen so actually binds to the estrogen receptors in the body. [124:41] Steven Bartlett: What is something that you believe that smart people you care about disagree with?

[0:00] if you go on social media seedor are [0:02] toxic seedor are going to give you [0:04] Alzheimer's seedor are going to give you [0:05] cancer but I've done lots of research [0:07] and there is absolutely no evidence to [0:11] show seed alls are harmful actually [0:12] they're beneficial for our health and [0:14] I'll come back to that but the problem [0:16] is that there is so much misinformation [0:18] out there about what we eat how we eat [0:20] and how it affects our health so let's [0:22] go into all of that Dr Sarah Barry is a [0:25] renowned nutrition scientist and [0:26] Professor with over 20 years of research [0:28] her work has reshaped how we think about [0:30] food metabolism and gut health Dr Sarah [0:33] Berry we have a lot to get through yes [0:35] so let's start with the food Matrix [0:37] that's so important because you can have [0:39] two foods with identical labeling same [0:41] nutrients and calorie value can have [0:43] entirely different impacts in terms of [0:45] how you metabolize our food and how it [0:46] impacts Downstream health effects [0:48] depending on how that food has been [0:50] processed now we also know the timing of [0:52] when we eat is really important for [0:53] example we found that snacking after [0:55] 9:00 was associated with unfavorable [0:57] Health outcomes the worst kind of fat [0:59] around your belly for example this was [1:01] even if you were snacking on healthy [1:03] snacks really and we also know that on [1:05] average if you change the speed in which [1:07] you eat your food by 20% you reduce your [1:09] calorie intake by about 15% but where it [1:11] gets really interesting is there's [1:13] evidence to show if you chew your food [1:14] 40 times versus 15 times it can result [1:17] in and then there's the menopause we've [1:20] conducted lots of research and one of [1:22] the most exciting things is that there [1:23] is principles which can reduce symptoms [1:26] by about 35% and so they are [1:31] this has always blown my mind a little [1:32] bit 53% of you that listen to the show [1:35] regularly haven't yet subscribed to the [1:37] show so could I ask you for a favor [1:39] before we start if you like the show and [1:40] you like what we do here and you want to [1:42] support us the free simple way that you [1:43] can do just that is by hitting the [1:45] Subscribe button and my commitment to [1:47] you is if you do that then I'll do [1:48] everything in my power me and my team to [1:50] make sure that this show is better for [1:52] you every single week we'll listen to [1:53] your feedback we'll find the guest that [1:55] you want me to speak to and we'll [1:57] continue to do what we do thank you so [1:59] much [2:00] [Music] [2:03] Dr Sarah Berry can you give me a little [2:05] bit of an overview over what You' spent [2:07] the last s of 25 years of your career [2:09] focusing on and understanding yeah so [2:12] I've spent 25 years starting out in [2:15] quite specific area looking at how diet [2:18] impacts our cardiometabolic health so by [2:20] this I mean lots of factors related to [2:22] cardiovascular disease like type 2 [2:24] diabetes our cholesterol our blood [2:26] pressure our inflammation and then uh [2:29] more recently I've been looking at how [2:31] actually we piece together all the [2:33] complexity of who we are what we eat how [2:35] we eat um into how that actually impacts [2:39] how we respond to food and the [2:40] helpfulness of a food um most of my [2:43] work's been done through running [2:45] clinical trials so randomized control [2:47] clinical trials where I recruit various [2:49] people get them to eat various things do [2:51] loads and loads of different [2:52] measurements and look at how a food or a [2:54] nutrient or a diet might impact a [2:57] particular Health outcome and how many [2:59] of these individual pieces of our sort [3:01] of health and [3:02] lifestyle are you trying to piece [3:05] together to form this picture what are [3:07] those pieces the key pieces are who you [3:10] are MH so that's one of the key pieces [3:13] so by that I mean your genetics your [3:16] microbiome your age your sex your [3:18] menopause status all of those kind of [3:20] things the other is the food that you [3:22] eat and when we think about food we need [3:26] to think about it beyond the traditional [3:28] way that we thought about food in terms [3:30] of nutrients you know backup pack [3:31] labeling fat protein fiber carbohydrate [3:34] but actually thinking about food in [3:35] terms of the fact that on average each [3:37] food has 70,000 different chemicals and [3:40] these are contained within a very [3:41] complex food structure which we call [3:43] Food Matrix that modulates the impact [3:45] that those chemicals and nutrients have [3:48] so that's the second thing that we need [3:49] to think about so we've got who you are [3:51] the food that you're eating but the [3:52] complexity of that food and then how you [3:55] eat your food and by how you eat your [3:57] food I'm thinking about your lifestyle [3:59] while I'm thinking about are you [4:01] jetlagged how much sleep did you have [4:03] last night you know what's the order in [4:06] which you're eating your food within a [4:07] meal or over the day how stressed are [4:09] you feeling um when did you do physical [4:12] activity all of that also impacts how [4:15] you will respond to a food and then I [4:18] think the last piece of the puzzle is so [4:20] important that as nutritional scientists [4:22] I don't think we think about enough why [4:25] do you make the diet of choices that you [4:26] make so why do you choose to have that [4:28] for breakfast for lunch for dinner is it [4:30] because it's part of your culture is it [4:31] because that's how you're just feeling [4:33] emotion is it because you're sitting [4:34] with friends and it's part of that [4:35] social experience MH I think we're at a [4:38] really exciting time in nutritional [4:40] research because we're now able to [4:41] collect data at a scale breadth depth [4:44] and precision that we've never been able [4:45] to before that's allowing us to put [4:48] together all of those pieces of the [4:49] puzzle to start to see a clearer picture [4:52] so let's go into all of that let's start [4:54] with um the subject of the food Matrix [4:56] which is a a term I hadn't actually [4:57] heard before um in today what is the [5:01] food Matrix and why why do I need to [5:02] know about that so the food Matrix [5:05] simply puts the structure of food and [5:08] it's really important because we know [5:10] that food is so much more than just the [5:13] nutrients and chemicals it contains so [5:16] we know that food contains nutrients [5:17] that people are very familiar with like [5:19] protein fat fiber carbohydrate we know [5:22] that food also contains thousands of [5:24] other chemicals many of these we call [5:26] bioactives that you have heard of like [5:28] polyphenols you know vitam minerals [5:31] Etc but they're all encapsulated within [5:34] the structure of a food so think of an [5:36] apple versus Apple puree versus apple [5:38] juice they're all coming from the same [5:40] food but they have a different [5:42] structure and the reason it's important [5:45] is because we know that food structure [5:47] modulates the healthfulness of the [5:50] chemicals and nutrients within the food [5:53] and it's really really relevant now it's [5:55] really relevant now because our food [5:57] landscape has changed almost [5:58] unrecognized ibly to 50 100 200 years [6:02] ago we're now eating a lot of food where [6:04] the food Matrix the structure of the [6:06] food has changed and this is because we [6:08] use multiple different processing [6:11] techniques [6:12] so in simple terms if I were to zoom in [6:16] on a piece of food on a microscope y the [6:19] way that the the molecule of the food is [6:20] put together is now different to what it [6:23] used to be and that's having an impact [6:26] on my health so in simple terms it's [6:28] that we are [6:30] changing often through processing the [6:32] structure of the food now by processing [6:34] it could be our own processing when we [6:36] chew a food we change the structure take [6:39] a nut for example you have a whole nut [6:40] you chew it you break up the nut it goes [6:43] into your gastrointestinal tract it's [6:44] broken down further we also change it [6:48] using manual industrial techniques as [6:51] well so we use techniques like grinding [6:53] or we might use posterization for dairy [6:56] or you know Extrusion for some [6:58] carbohydrate rich foods we all of these [7:00] different techniques that also change [7:02] the food Matrix For Better or For Worse [7:04] it's a double-edged sword right and I [7:07] think this is what we need to remember [7:09] that everyone's demonizing at the moment [7:11] Ultra processed food you know it's [7:13] killing the nation 60% of our energy is [7:15] coming from a processed food yes we are [7:19] eating too much unhealthy food much of [7:23] which has been heavily processed but [7:24] processing can also be used to our [7:27] benefit and we have to think why do we [7:29] even process food in the first place [7:30] well we process it to make edible mhm I [7:33] don't want to go and eat a rice grain [7:34] that's not been cooked we make it safe I [7:38] want to drink pasteurized milk because I [7:41] know it's safer we want to make it [7:43] stable I think how long a can can last [7:46] and frozen vegetables versus fresh so [7:49] you're saving food waste we want to make [7:51] it taste good mhm um and we want to make [7:54] it convenient so there's all of these [7:55] different reasons that we use food [7:57] processing but when we think about the [8:00] healthfulness of a food we need to think [8:03] about it in terms of the processing [8:05] techniques that have been used as well [8:08] as the nutrient composition we can't [8:10] look at them in isolation in my opinion [8:12] and this is what I've done a lot of [8:13] research looking into and what has [8:15] processing gone [8:18] bad I think processing gone bad is when [8:22] you've change the nutrient profile of a [8:25] food such that it is unhealthy so in [8:28] simple terms it's too much saturated fat [8:31] too much salt um too little fiber too [8:35] little bioactives like polyphenols a [8:38] food that is very energy dense so you [8:40] eat it really really quickly so you're [8:42] eating too many calories you're eating [8:43] it before your hunger signals have got [8:45] to your brain say w Stephen you've had [8:47] enough and there's great research that [8:50] has been looking at how processing can [8:52] affect your eating rate the energy [8:54] density of food the nutrient profile of [8:56] a food and that's where it can go wrong [8:59] but where it can go right is you can [9:02] improve all of those things I've said [9:03] the stability the safety of the food you [9:07] can also um increase the what we call BI [9:10] accessibility so the availability of [9:12] some of the nutrients within a food as [9:15] well okay so I've got some snacks over [9:17] in the corner of the room here which um [9:21] I guess have been processed differently [9:23] mhm to have a different impact on on me [9:26] as the consumer gosh these look [9:30] delicious oh I hope they're salt and [9:32] vinegar Pringles you're going to eat [9:34] them look at this oh my gosh um so I've [9:37] got some mixed nuts here and I've got [9:40] some cookies some little pieces of [9:42] chocolate and uh some crisps so you were [9:46] talking about this processing something [9:48] so that I eat it faster and that it [9:50] doesn't like sort of satiate me or make [9:52] me feel hungry crisps We're a nation of [9:55] crisp [9:56] lovers um when you saying that about [10:00] something that makes you eat fast and [10:01] not realize that you've even eaten all [10:03] crisps were the first thing that came to [10:04] mind for me I love a crisp you love a [10:06] crisp we all love a crisp so I think all [10:09] of these first three foods the crisps [10:11] the chocolate the cookies you know if [10:14] compared to what would be a healthy food [10:17] they've all got less fiber MH they've [10:19] all got well certainly the the um [10:22] chocolate and the cookie it's got more [10:24] sugar um they won't have all of the [10:27] wonderful bioactives in them um um and [10:30] then with the crisps depending on the [10:31] type of crisp is probably quite high in [10:35] in salt but the chances are with those [10:38] three is that they are quite energy [10:41] dense so they have quite a lot of [10:43] calories per gram which is partly [10:46] because of uh the processing techniques [10:49] yet if you take a whole food like a nut [10:52] yeah now they're actually very energy [10:54] dense so they're very high in fat [10:57] they're high in calories [10:59] but actually because they're in their [11:01] original food Matrix how your body [11:04] handles them is quite different to if [11:07] for example they had been processed you [11:10] you mentioned something about my brain [11:12] takes a little while to figure out that [11:14] I've started eating yep so if I started [11:17] smashing these crisps down now how long [11:19] would it take my brain to realize that [11:21] I'd started eating to sort of catch up [11:22] and make me feel hungry yeah so there's [11:25] Lo lots of different mechanisms that [11:27] impact how full we feel how hungry we [11:28] feel related to a food there's different [11:30] hormones that are released from [11:31] different areas of our gut for example [11:34] that feedback signals to say either [11:35] you're full or you're hungry on average [11:39] I would say it takes about 10 to 20 [11:41] minutes for the fullness to really [11:43] properly kick in now you could easily [11:47] have got through those well I could [11:49] easily have got through all of these [11:51] before under that 20 minutes I wasn't [11:54] aware that there was a delay but it does [11:56] make sense because there's certain foods [11:58] that I used to eat like like Pringles [12:00] and snacks and crisps and things like [12:02] that where I feel like I could eat two [12:04] Tu tubes of the thing before my body [12:06] even um realize what was going on and [12:08] are they in some way designed to [12:11] encourage that speed of eating and so [12:14] there are many people who will say the [12:16] food industry has specifically designed [12:19] these to make them firstly what we call [12:21] hyper palatable so to have the right mix [12:24] of fat sugar you know carbohydrate Etc [12:28] to make them really tasty and in this [12:31] case salt as [12:32] well [12:34] um I don't think the food industry is [12:36] out there to get us I think that what [12:39] the food industry were doing 50 years [12:40] ago versus what they're doing now is [12:42] quite different but some people say I'm [12:44] very naive I do believe the food [12:46] industry ultimately want to produce food [12:48] that's safe but also healthy for us [12:51] that's probably an unpopular opinion but [12:53] based on my interactions with the food [12:54] industry I believe that however I do [12:56] believe that these crisps are there [12:59] have been made to be flavorsome to be [13:02] palatable to you so that you do enjoy [13:06] them now whether that's that you then go [13:08] and overeat [13:09] them I think is yes a byproduct of that [13:14] um now it's not it doesn't take 20 [13:16] minutes for all of the fullness signals [13:19] to kick in because as soon as you start [13:21] chewing something you start to release [13:22] different hormones and different sensory [13:25] characteristics of the food will also [13:26] trigger some sort of fullness but what [13:28] we do do know is that you have more of [13:31] these fullness receptors saying hey [13:33] you're full lower down in your [13:34] gastrointestinal tract and so if you can [13:38] get food to the lower gastrointestinal [13:40] tract that's when it says hey Steph [13:42] you're full now and these heavily [13:44] processed snacks that you've got [13:46] here would be typically absorbed higher [13:49] up the gastrointes because kind of the [13:51] hard work's been done and yet when [13:53] you've got something like a whole grain [13:55] or a nut typically that would be [13:56] absorbed lower down the gastrointestinal [13:58] stress tra where you got more of these [14:01] fullness signals so giving you that [14:03] greater feeling of fullness my [14:05] girlfriend has said to me for many many [14:06] a year that I need to eat slower Y and I [14:09] thought it was like a spiritual thing [14:10] that she's into um to do with like [14:12] giving the food gratitude etc etc but [14:15] upon reading your work and having this [14:17] conversation today now I'm starting to [14:19] believe that she was right all along [14:21] unsurprisingly once again um and that [14:23] there is a a a scientific basis for [14:26] slowing down how fast I eat absolutely [14:30] we now know that eating rate is [14:31] important there's some fantastic work [14:33] that's being done by a professor kieren [14:35] Ford who's dedicated many years into [14:39] researching this and looking at how [14:41] changing the structure and texture of [14:43] your food can modulate your eating rate [14:45] and how also your eating rate can [14:48] modulate um how you metabolize the food [14:51] and how many calories you go on to eat [14:54] and so it's a great example you know I [14:56] talked about all of these different [14:58] pieces of the puzzle that's one of those [14:59] pieces so when we talk about how you eat [15:02] changing your eating rate so how quickly [15:04] you have your breakfast your lunch or [15:06] dinner or any of these snacks will also [15:09] Without You consciously thinking about [15:10] it change how many calories you eat [15:13] might change how quickly you metabolize [15:15] the food as well what's the sort of [15:17] KnockOn effects there so the research [15:19] that's been done by Ken Ford shows that [15:22] on average if you change the speed in [15:24] which you eat your food by about [15:26] 20% you reduce your calories intake by [15:29] about [15:31] 15% and that's due to where you're [15:35] releasing your hunger hormones how many [15:37] fullness hormones you're releasing Etc [15:39] so it's a really simple strategy and we [15:41] see this play out as well even in our [15:43] own evidence when we look in our zor [15:44] predict studies that fast eaters versus [15:46] slow eaters we see that once we're just [15:49] for lots of other confounders there's a [15:51] difference of 120 calories between What [15:54] fast eaters have over a day versus slow [15:56] eaters with the fast eaters eating more [15:58] calories compared the slow eaters and [16:00] there's even been clinical trials where [16:02] they get groups of individuals and say [16:05] okay slow down the rate at which you eat [16:07] your food over the next you know three [16:10] four five weeks they have another group [16:12] they say just eat at your normal rate [16:14] those people who are intentionally [16:15] slowing down the rate at which they eat [16:17] their food lose more weight than those [16:19] people who continue to eat at their [16:21] normal [16:22] rate see I always made this like weird [16:25] unfounded evolutionary argument to her I [16:27] was like well you know in the wild you [16:28] got to eat what you can so people eat [16:31] quick but um we're not in the world [16:34] anymore and the food choices that we [16:35] have are drastically different now so [16:38] yeah and also the food that is available [16:40] to many of us is the kind of food that [16:42] can be eaten really quickly so there's [16:45] some great research that's been [16:46] conducted that shows that heavily [16:48] processed soft textured type food can be [16:51] eaten 50% more quickly than the [16:54] unprocessed harder textured equivalent [16:57] so the kind of food that we're eating [16:59] now is quite different so you're eating [17:01] it really quickly you're overeating [17:03] because your hunger signals haven't got [17:05] there but it's that rate at which you're [17:07] eating what's an example of a soft [17:08] textured food versus like a hard [17:10] textured [17:11] food so we can use an example from a [17:14] study that was actually conducted in [17:16] 1977 and this was published in the Lan [17:18] it was one of the first nutrition [17:19] studies published um in the lanet and [17:23] it's one of the first studies to show [17:25] the importance of the food Matrix and it [17:27] kind of got buried for many years and [17:28] this a study by uh the scientist called [17:30] habber where he fed individuals whole [17:33] apples MH he fed individuals the [17:36] equivalent amount of carbohydrate from [17:38] Apple puree it was exactly the same I.E [17:42] same nutrients same fiber same [17:44] everything else in it all that's [17:46] different is the apples are hard the [17:48] puree is soft and what he found was that [17:52] those people who were given the puree [17:54] even though they were given exactly the [17:56] same amount of calories ate that puree [17:59] or rather drank that puree three to four [18:01] times more quickly than when they had [18:03] the apples the equivalent amount of [18:04] calories so they were eating the same [18:07] amount of calories but three to four [18:08] times more quickly that's like 300% 400% [18:14] faster okay they felt less full so when [18:16] they measured their fullness and they [18:18] monitored that for quite a few hours so [18:20] going up to quite a few hours those that [18:22] were having the apples continued to feel [18:24] full for longer those were having the [18:26] puree didn't feel full as long [18:29] and what also happened interestingly is [18:32] those that were having the puree had [18:34] what we call a blood sugar dip so about [18:35] 2 to four hours after having a high [18:37] carbohydrate meal we know that some [18:39] people have a dip in their circulating [18:41] blood sugar and we know from our own zo [18:43] predict research that actually this can [18:45] really increase your hunger levels yeah [18:47] and so we know from our research if you [18:49] are a Dipper I'm a Dipper hence I get [18:51] hungry quite often so in about two hours [18:53] I'm going to be eating one of these if [18:55] you're a Dipper you know your your blood [18:58] gluc is going below your Baseline levels [19:01] and so you get hungry you go on to eat [19:04] 180 calories on average more at your [19:06] next meal because of that and so I mean [19:08] this research from 1977 I think is [19:10] fascinating it's that first research [19:13] really demonstrating the importance of [19:14] food Matrix and then since then I've now [19:17] over the last 10 years done lots of [19:19] studies with nuts with oats for example [19:22] that demonstrate you can have two foods [19:24] that have identical backpack labeling [19:27] identical nutrients ident identical [19:29] calorie value if you were to look at the [19:30] back of Lo but can have entirely [19:32] different impacts in terms of how much [19:35] energy you absorb how you metabolize [19:37] that food how it impacts your hunger how [19:40] it impacts Downstream health effects and [19:42] you've done some research on walnuts [19:44] right so we've done work on walnuts but [19:46] particularly on almonds so we've done [19:49] lots of work with almonds using it as a [19:52] kind of proof and principle of the [19:53] importance of the food Matrix now you [19:55] just took a bite of that and I could [19:56] hear the crunch the reason I could hear [19:58] the crunches cuz in almonds like most [20:00] nuts like many plant-based projects uh [20:02] products um there is a very um rigid [20:08] cell wall okay so that almond that you [20:10] you're holding there has thousands and [20:12] thousands and thousands of cells these [20:14] cells are tiny they're about 50 microns [20:17] okay you can't see them with the human [20:18] eye I can show you a micrograph okay um [20:22] but there's thousands in there now each [20:25] of those cells is smaller than a grain [20:27] of sand and each of those cells is [20:29] encapsulate cell walls is encapsulating [20:32] the fat so we know that in most of these [20:35] nuts it's about 50% they're about 50% [20:38] fat hence people say my gosh I can't eat [20:40] nuts they're high fat they're high [20:42] calorie now in all of those nuts the [20:44] fats encapsulated in this rigid cell [20:46] wall when you bit that you fractured [20:49] some of [20:50] those cell walls when you swallow it you [20:54] chewed it you chewed it a little bit I [20:56] assume a little bit yeah yeah I didn't [20:58] swallow it [20:59] when people chew it we know from these [21:01] lovely chew and spit studies or [21:02] mastication studies that we do that at [21:04] the point at which you swallow a knut [21:08] the particles I the size of the bits [21:11] that you're swallowing that you've [21:12] you've chewed are about maybe half a [21:14] millim to 1 mm in size now given that [21:19] the cell within or of a alut is about 50 [21:23] microns that means when you're [21:25] swallowing within that what we call a [21:27] macro particle you got thousands of [21:29] cells they're intact where you've got [21:31] this lovely cell wall containing all of [21:33] this fat and so you're swallowing these [21:37] intact cells containing encapsulating [21:40] the fat so they're what we call very low [21:42] by accessibility they're not very [21:44] accessible to us this [21:46] fat now what happens as this passes [21:48] through your gastrointestinal tract some [21:50] of the enzymes can break down the cells [21:52] a little bit but actually a lot just [21:54] comes out the other end so I don't know [21:57] whether you've ever eaten a bag of nuts [21:58] and to your poo after none of your [21:59] business I'm joking okay go and do [22:03] that but you should [22:06] see some Alma particles you know like [22:09] when I'm you know being a mom when I've [22:12] I've looked at a lot of PE in my life [22:13] through my work but also through being a [22:15] mom you can see whole nut particles in [22:19] the Poo so nuts they just is it they [22:22] just don't break down fully so they [22:24] break down partially so you break down [22:26] about [22:27] 10% in the mouth before you swallow so [22:30] about 10% of the calories become [22:32] available because the calories are [22:34] contained from the fat [22:35] Etc and then you probably break down [22:38] about another 60 to 70% as it passes [22:41] through your stomach your small [22:42] intestine your large intestine okay but [22:45] you have loads of material arriving at [22:46] your colon which is your large intestine [22:48] that's undigested which is good for two [22:50] reasons one because you're giving all of [22:53] this food to your microbiome which we [22:55] know is great for your health your [22:56] microbiome is having a party with these [22:57] nuts [22:58] but also if you are worried about eating [23:01] nuts because of their high calorie value [23:03] actually 20 to 30% of the calories are [23:05] just coming out the other end but where [23:08] it gets really interesting is if we then [23:10] take exactly that nut that you're [23:11] holding there and if I was to [23:13] industrially grind it so that I broke [23:16] all of those cells walls yeah so we're [23:18] breaking it down to less than 50 microns [23:21] so that you're releasing all of the fat [23:24] so it becomes 100% bi accessible either [23:27] you absorb 100% % of it but they could [23:30] have two identical back aack labels yeah [23:33] because if they're the same ingredient [23:35] all that's happened is you've ground [23:37] that nut to such an extent that you've [23:39] released [23:41] everything and so having that in its [23:43] whole form is beneficial because if you [23:46] are concerned about energy intake it's [23:48] reducing the energy it's providing this [23:50] amazing food for your G microbiome it's [23:52] changing also how you your blood changes [23:57] metabolically in that about 8 hours [24:00] after eating it and this is what I've [24:01] done lots of work on looking at how your [24:03] blood fat increases and decreases in [24:05] that immediate period after eating [24:07] either ground nuts or whole nuts but [24:09] once you grind it I'm not saying it's [24:12] necessarily bad because the upside of [24:14] that is all of the other good nutrients [24:16] contained within that cell like the [24:17] vitamin E and some of the other [24:19] components also become available so it's [24:21] this double-edged sword interesting but [24:24] that's what I think is so fascinating [24:26] about processing and about food Matrix [24:29] and why we have to move Beyond thinking [24:32] about food just in terms of the [24:33] nutrients because you can have two foods [24:36] with identical backpack labeling that [24:38] have different effects and we've seen [24:40] the same with oats we've been doing [24:41] studies as well where we feed people um [24:45] large oats so kind of you know like the [24:47] steel cck sort of old-fashioned porridge [24:51] or you feed people finally ground oats [24:55] and so we've done clinical trials where [24:57] on one occasion people come in and [24:58] they'll have 50 gr carbohydrate for [25:01] breakfast of these large oats then [25:03] they'll come in another day and they'll [25:05] have exactly the same oats but where we [25:07] ground them literally we've got students [25:09] just grinding them down so they're more [25:11] like a powder and the difference in the [25:13] metabolic response in that following six [25:15] hours after having either the large [25:18] traditional oats or these finy ground [25:19] oats is enormous and that's because of [25:23] gut absorption speed yes so with the [25:27] nuts what we're seeing here [25:28] is a difference in the amount as well as [25:32] the speed with the oats what we're [25:35] seeing is a difference in the speed so [25:36] we're see seeing a difference in the [25:38] rate because we know that the food [25:40] Matrix impacts the amount I with the [25:43] nuts the rate are with the oats and as [25:47] well as where the foods absorbed in the [25:49] gut and so you see about a 40% [25:52] difference in the post pangal glucose [25:56] response this is the increase in circul [25:58] blood glucose after you've had these [26:00] oats we see about a 50% higher response [26:03] from the ground oats versus the laros [26:07] and that has subsequent impacts on [26:09] hunger hormones fullness hormones [26:12] insulin release etc etc and what role [26:15] does fiber play in this because fiber is [26:17] becoming quite popular now they're like [26:18] putting it in drinks and stuff like that [26:20] and I I there was some candy in America [26:22] when we were recording over in uh New [26:24] York which had like it said like 15 [26:26] grams of fiber added to this like [26:29] candy so fiber is a really interesting [26:32] one and it's a really interesting one [26:33] because we know we're not getting enough [26:35] fiber M so we should be getting at least [26:37] 30 grams of fiber in the UK and it's [26:39] similar in the US we get on average [26:41] about 20 grams of fiber 95% of us are [26:44] not having enough fiber fiber is the one [26:46] nutrient that we know consistently is [26:48] associated with beneficial health [26:51] effects reduce reduction in many cancers [26:54] reduction in cardiovascular disease [26:55] reduction in levels of obesity type 2 [26:57] diabetes Etc you know it's an amazing [26:59] nutrient fiber and we don't get enough [27:02] of it just to pause there then why is it [27:04] so good for us because I mean it sounds [27:06] like a super molecule the way you just [27:08] described it so it's good for us for [27:10] many different reasons and there's loads [27:12] and loads of different types of fiber [27:13] and the different types of fiber are [27:15] good for us for slightly different [27:16] reasons really simply put we've got [27:18] soluble fiber and that's great for us [27:20] because it impacts things like [27:21] cholesterol absorption as well as other [27:24] factors related to how quickly we [27:26] metabolize food Etc then you've got uh [27:28] insoluble fiber which is the kind of [27:31] fiber that for example are in those nuts [27:33] because fiber in those nuts is actually [27:35] the cell wall so most cell walls of [27:37] plants are just fiber that's great for [27:39] us because it's fued for our microbiome [27:41] it helps bulk out our store so reduces [27:44] our Transit time how quickly the our poo [27:47] basically passes to our colon reduce the [27:49] risk of colon cancer and so forth but [27:52] largely because it is the food upon [27:54] which our microbiom have their party [27:56] produce all of these wonderful molecules [27:57] that we no impact so much related to our [28:00] health but we don't get enough of it and [28:03] we don't get enough of it because we're [28:04] not eating the right types of food that [28:06] we have in high amounts so having any [28:08] kind of fiber is going to improve our [28:09] health having fiber that's added [28:12] artificially back into food is going to [28:15] be better than having no fiber so the [28:16] kind of bars that you're talking about [28:18] that say are added fiber great having [28:21] fiber though from the whole food is [28:23] always going to be better and so with [28:26] nuts fiber is essentially the the cell [28:28] walls of the nuts so it's having that [28:30] role in reducing that bio accessibility [28:33] that we talk about at slowing those nuts [28:37] down so that's always going to be better [28:39] having that fiber in the whole food in [28:42] its original structure in the way nature [28:44] intended but having any kind of fiber is [28:47] better than having none and in a nation [28:49] or or you know many nations where we're [28:51] not having enough if we can get some in [28:54] our diet even if it is processed fiber [28:57] it's better than fiber in my opinion one [29:00] of the um big revelations in my [29:03] household has been just getting some of [29:05] these bad snacks just out the house and [29:07] replacing it with um healthier whole [29:11] snacks and I say that because the sort [29:13] of the very definition the very like [29:15] sort of use case where we snack is when [29:17] we typically don't have a lot of time [29:19] where hunger kind of crept up on us in [29:21] between a meal um and so we make fast [29:24] decisions it's not a very considered [29:26] decision um and I was reading [29:28] that there's been some studies done [29:30] where they took sort of two groups and [29:31] gave them typical snacks versus healthy [29:34] snacks and they found a pretty [29:35] significant reduction in cardiovascular [29:37] disease yeah so this is one of my [29:39] studies okay um and we looked at how [29:44] changing people's snacks can impact [29:45] their health and the reason we're [29:46] interested in this is because we're a [29:48] nation of snackers in the UK as in many [29:51] countries so we know that about 25% of [29:53] our energy comes from snacks that's [29:56] phenomenal and so what we wanted to do [29:59] is look at if we do a really simple [30:02] snack [30:03] swap can we improve People's Health and [30:07] so we ask people to change 20% of their [30:11] energy from either having typical UK [30:13] snacks MH or having 20% of their energy [30:17] from alond nuts for 6 weeks and then we [30:20] looked at various Health outcomes at the [30:22] beginning of that six weeks and then at [30:24] the end of that six weeks we said keep [30:26] everything else the same we provided all [30:28] of these snacks to them we provided the [30:30] typical UK snacks we spent a lot of time [30:33] designing these so we did lots of [30:35] research where we looked in the UK and [30:37] it's the very similar in the US what are [30:39] the typical snacks so basically we [30:41] designed these muffins that ultimately [30:43] were having a bit of a potato chip or [30:46] crisp a bit of a chocolate biscuit a bit [30:48] of a cake just like imagine all put in [30:50] one muffin I mean we didn't go and get [30:52] those and just stick them in one muffin [30:54] but we worked out what's the nutrient [30:55] profile in the UK in the us that comes [30:59] from snacks and then we designed a snack [31:01] product that was quite highly processed [31:03] that reflected that nutrient profile so [31:05] it's quite high in saturated fat high in [31:06] sugar high in refined carbohydrate low [31:08] in fiber people had to eat 20% of their [31:11] energy from these muffins which my kids [31:15] loved um or 20% from the almond nuts at [31:19] the end of that we measured lots of [31:20] health outcomes one of which was a [31:22] particular measure that we do to look at [31:24] people's vascular function so their [31:25] blood vessel function it's a measure [31:27] called flow Medi dilation it tells us in [31:29] really simple terms kind of how healthy [31:31] the blood vessels are and what we found [31:34] was the Improvement in blood vessel [31:36] function following having almond nuts [31:39] versus having typical UK snacks equated [31:43] to a 30% reduction in cardiovascular [31:45] disease that's crazy and in what period [31:47] of time six weeks in six weeks and do [31:50] you know what I think's [31:52] really interesting about this is it's [31:54] one simple single dietary strategy [31:58] and snacks are under our own control [32:01] typically I what I have as a snack isn't [32:03] determined by my fussy kids what high [32:06] have as a snack quite often isn't [32:07] determined where I am at that point in [32:08] time because I can bring my snacks with [32:10] me it's a really simple single diet [32:13] strategy that can have a big size effect [32:16] and I think that that's really important [32:18] it is really important though Stephen at [32:19] this point that I do say that I have [32:21] actually had funding from the alma board [32:22] of California and they did fund uh that [32:25] study although the way we conduct our [32:27] RCT the funders have no impact over the [32:30] study design or you know they don't get [32:32] to see the all data or or the paper [32:34] before we're publishing it but I just [32:36] think it's always important to declare [32:37] conflicts of [32:38] interest we've seen this though play out [32:41] in other studies with other nuts or [32:43] other snack substitutes so it's not [32:45] unique just to almonds it's a great [32:48] illustrator of how changing our snacks [32:50] can improve our health and we we really [32:52] are a nation of snackers um you [32:54] highlighted one of the stats there that [32:55] in the UK and in the US about 25% of our [32:58] energy comes from snacks 75% of the [33:01] energy that's coming from those snacks [33:02] is coming from unhealthy snacks this was [33:04] taken from The Zo podcast uh in [33:06] mediteran in Mediterranean countries [33:08] only 14% of energy comes from snacks [33:11] which is half of the UK and 85% of [33:14] British people report snacking compared [33:16] to 10% in France and in the UK we have [33:20] 2.5 to three snacks per day which [33:22] translates to six or seven eating events [33:25] a day um and this has massive impact and [33:27] our glucose spikes and drops throughout [33:29] the day causing metabolic chaos and [33:31] that's part of what I was thinking as I [33:32] was as I was thinking about this is um [33:35] if I'm eating that muffin that you made [33:37] which resembles the sort of typical [33:39] British composition of a snack it's not [33:42] necessarily just that That Snack is [33:45] going to impact me it's that my next [33:48] Food choice because I ate that snack is [33:50] going to be different because I'm on [33:51] that I might be on a glucose roller [33:53] coaster here so I might end up making a [33:55] worse food Choice thereafter which then [33:58] might impact my maybe my sleep because [34:00] I've got a little bit of sugar in me [34:02] when I'm settling down to go to sleep [34:04] and is there the sort of not Downstream [34:07] domino effect because of that one snack [34:10] choice so I wouldn't say that you've [34:12] made a one bad snack choice and that's [34:14] it your day's over damn it you know [34:16] you're stuffed I think that you [34:19] highlight an important point though that [34:22] what we choose as a meal does have knock [34:24] on effects on what might happen later in [34:26] the day so for example if you have a [34:28] really refined carbohydrate breakfast or [34:30] snack then you're more likely to have a [34:32] blood sugar dip which we know from our [34:34] research is more likely to make you um [34:37] more hungry eat more calories have lower [34:39] mood have lower energy and be less alert [34:42] but I think you know [34:44] snacking can be used to our advantage [34:47] snacking can be used to our advantage [34:49] because we know it accounts for such a [34:51] huge proportion of our energy intake [34:53] because we know on average that you know [34:56] 70 75% snacks that we do come eat in the [34:59] UK and the US are not helpful snacks and [35:02] because we know that actually just [35:04] transitioning from those to healthy [35:05] snacks can have a big impact but I think [35:09] it's really important to be thinking [35:11] about not just the type of snacks you're [35:13] having but the time of day that you're [35:15] having the snacks and we published some [35:16] research recently where we looked in a [35:19] thousand individuals at people's [35:20] snacking habits because it's not [35:22] actually been looked at much I mean you [35:23] think everyone snacks you think there'd [35:25] be loads of science out there about [35:27] snacking there's lots of science out [35:29] there about the different you know foods [35:31] that we might snack on but not really [35:33] much looking at snacking habits and [35:36] there's a lot of controversy out there [35:38] about whether we should be grazers and [35:41] we are a nation of grazers you know we [35:44] well I certainly graze but many people [35:46] we know like you said you know 80 to 90% [35:48] of people do have multiple eating events [35:50] throughout the day are you taking these [35:53] away from you for self-control I am a [35:54] little bit Yeah I think uh the the smell [35:57] of the chocolate and the cookies is [35:59] testing me and in Janu I'm not trying to [36:01] be tested there we go um [36:04] and what we have never really fully [36:07] understood is is snacking per se bad are [36:10] you having multiple eating events so [36:12] eating six times a day which we nearly [36:15] do in the UK and the [36:17] us or is it about the type of food we're [36:20] snacking on so should we revert back to [36:22] having the three main meals the [36:23] breakfast the lunch the dinner or is it [36:25] okay to have multiple meals as long as [36:27] it's healthy food so we looked at this [36:29] in our cohort of a thousand individuals [36:31] where we taken lots of measures related [36:33] to what they're eating when they're [36:35] eating how they're eating it as well as [36:36] lots of different Health outcomes and [36:38] what we found was that the frequency of [36:41] eating within reason was not a problem [36:44] so if people were grazing having [36:46] multiple eating events as long as they [36:48] were eating healthy foods it didn't [36:50] matter having multiple eating events so [36:53] snacking per se wasn't a problem as long [36:54] as they were healthy foods okay cuz [36:57] there's been a long [36:58] I guess raging debate about how many [36:59] meals you should have a day some people [37:00] just eat one meal a day some people [37:02] probably five or six meals a day and [37:04] you're saying it doesn't necessarily [37:05] matter as long as what you're eating is [37:08] healthy yeah I mean I will always as a [37:11] cautious scientist cave it within reason [37:14] but our research showed people having [37:15] six eating events a day I you know six [37:19] different occasions that they're eating [37:20] food or three eating events as long as [37:22] they were eating or snacking on healthy [37:24] foods it did not impact their health [37:27] outcome [37:28] and this is I guess controlled for [37:29] extreme cases where someone's maybe [37:31] eating at 1:00 a.m. in the morning or 2: [37:32] a.m. in the morning yeah so we also [37:34] looked at timing because I think that's [37:36] something that we haven't given enough [37:38] attention to in nutrition science and [37:39] it's a really exciting new area of [37:41] research that we're starting to [37:42] understand the timing of when we eat is [37:44] really important and what we found was [37:47] interestingly 30% of people were [37:49] snacking after 9 at [37:51] night and we found that if you snack [37:54] late at night I feel [37:56] attacked and this is a l in line with [37:58] you know other published research from [38:00] very tightly controlled clinical trials [38:02] we found that if you snack late at night [38:04] that that was associated with [38:06] unfavorable Health outcomes so uh worse [38:10] adosi so worse kind of fat around your [38:12] belly for example um higher levels of [38:14] inflammation worse levels of blood lipid [38:17] so you know cholesterol that sort of [38:18] thing and we found that this was even if [38:22] you were snacking on healthy snacks [38:24] really and this isn't especially [38:27] surprising because there's this whole [38:28] new area in nutrition called chronon [38:30] nutrition which is all about the timing [38:32] of eating and we now are really starting [38:34] to understand that every cell in our [38:36] body has its little body clock has a [38:39] clock every cell has a clock and that [38:41] clock is shaped by when we eat as well [38:44] as the light day cycle and if we're [38:46] eating out of sink with those clocks [38:49] those millions and trillions of clocks [38:51] in our body we know that we process the [38:54] food slightly differently we metabolize [38:56] it slightly differently and it may have [38:57] a different impact on our health and [38:59] that's what our research showed as well [39:00] so eating after [39:02] 9:00 isn't great for your health just a [39:05] double down on that I have had a [39:07] long-standing [39:08] hypothesis that when I eat later at [39:11] night it is making is it is basically [39:13] increasing my belly fat now I I don't [39:15] have any science to support this but [39:17] there's a and also the way that I feel [39:19] when I wake up is radically different if [39:22] I've eaten close to my sleep time so I [39:24] had this weird hypothesis that I'm [39:26] basically putting food into the machine [39:28] and then I'm like turning the machine [39:29] off while it's processing so it's kind [39:31] of like not processed it properly yeah I [39:34] mean that's kind of a simple terms [39:37] what's sort of happening okay you know [39:40] our body needs to rest overnight just [39:42] like our mind does ourselves our [39:43] metabolism needs to rest overnight and [39:46] if you're not giving your body your [39:48] cells your metabolism your got [39:50] microbiome Etc that time to rest things [39:52] get Disturbed a little bit and what's [39:55] really interesting is you said that [39:57] you'll feel different the next day if [39:59] you eat late at night there's some [40:00] really fascinating research that came [40:02] out about one or two years ago where [40:05] they looked at giving exactly the same [40:08] calories and Foods over the day within [40:10] the same time period but on in one group [40:15] of individuals having most of the [40:16] calories earlier and in another group [40:19] having most of them later in the day now [40:22] those that were having them later in the [40:24] day woke up feeling more hungry which is [40:28] kind of like counterintuitive isn't it [40:30] but it fits in with what you just said [40:32] yet those people who are eating the [40:33] calories earlier in the [40:35] day woke up feeling less hungry and this [40:39] is why as well the evidence shows early [40:41] Tim restricted eating so time restricted [40:44] eating where you're eating within a [40:45] particular time window those people who [40:47] are practicing earlier in the day tend [40:49] to do better in terms of the health [40:51] outcomes whether it's weight [40:53] inflammation cholesterol than those [40:55] practicing later time restrict eating [40:57] when they have their last eating event [40:59] later in the day and that's cuz they're [41:01] eating in in in time with their body [41:04] clocks with these millions and billions [41:06] of little cell [41:09] clocks I have um had a weird observation [41:12] which is sometimes sort of quite rare [41:15] these days I have to wake up super early [41:17] to get on a flight and it means that I'm [41:19] disrupting my sleep maybe getting up at [41:21] 4:00 or 5 in the morning and for some [41:23] bizarre reason if I'm if I wake up at [41:26] say 4: in the morning morning to go and [41:27] get a flight I am starving but if I woke [41:32] up at 9: that same day I would not be I [41:35] would probably not get hungry till about [41:37] 2: p.m. and I've never managed to sort [41:39] of really figure out why disrupting my [41:41] sleep causes me to be ridiculously [41:43] hungry whereas typically I don't [41:45] honestly eat breakfast I typically eat [41:47] about midday or 2 p.m. so I think that's [41:50] probably a lot going on there it's [41:52] getting a little bit outside my of [41:54] expertise but I can certainly comment [41:55] from work that we've done and I'm [41:57] familiar with so what we know is that [42:00] sleep duration sleep efficiency what we [42:03] also call Sleep midpoint so the midpoint [42:05] in which you sleep impacts your hunger [42:08] levels we know that your hunger and your [42:11] fullness hormones change as you sleep so [42:14] we know that short sleepers people who [42:18] you know are getting up too early so [42:19] when you're getting up for your flight [42:21] then your hunger and fullness hormones [42:24] might be perturbed and we know that [42:26] short sleepers or if you've had a a poor [42:29] night's sleep you tend to wake up more [42:32] hungry than if you've had a good night's [42:34] sleep this isn't from my own research I [42:36] always have to cavey at that but this is [42:38] what some of the research is showing but [42:40] that also if you've had a poor night's [42:41] sleep You Reach For Less healthy food [42:45] and there's a study that was conducted [42:47] at Kings College London by my colleagues [42:49] called the Slumber study um and this [42:53] really nicely illustrates how just [42:55] changing how much you sleep can change [42:57] your dietry choices and in the Slumber [42:59] study they asked people who were short [43:01] sleepers to practice sleep hygiene they [43:03] gave them no dietry advice they just [43:05] said practice good sleep hygiene I you [43:07] know no screens late at night no [43:09] physical activity caffeine alcohol Etc [43:11] late at night dark and [43:13] room and then they just monitored lots [43:16] of different things in these individuals [43:18] and what they found was that those who [43:20] were able to extend their [43:22] sleep actually made healthier choices [43:26] such that they reduced jued without [43:27] being told to their intake of free Sugar [43:30] by about 10 G oh really without being [43:32] given any [43:34] advice so they slept better they atat [43:37] less sugar they made the decision to eat [43:40] less sugar without being told [43:42] to that correlates it's it's been such a [43:46] revelation I think in my my life over [43:48] the last I'd say two to three years is [43:50] realizing the downstream impact of sleep [43:53] and a bad night's sleep cuz it was one [43:55] of the things that I think growing up [43:56] especially you as an entrepreneur when [43:58] you're like consuming a lot of like [43:59] hustle preneur you know culture and it's [44:01] all like sacrific to sleep work seven [44:03] days that you assume is um take it or [44:06] leave it like it like you assume it's [44:08] often the first thing you think that you [44:10] can sacrifice in the pursuit of [44:12] productivity yeah well this is what I I [44:15] thought growing up and then in the last [44:17] I so all I think all 20 30 olds think [44:20] that yeah and do you not think yeah and [44:22] anyone that's like has I think probably [44:27] an involuntary amount of I say [44:29] involuntary but I mean just because of [44:31] the decisions they've made amount of [44:33] professional pressure or like shift [44:35] workers or anybody or even parents I [44:38] guess [44:40] um [44:42] they probably see sleep as second due to [44:45] some other kind of priority in their [44:46] life and when I shifted that and I I [44:48] made adjustments to my calendar and my [44:50] schedule to try and prioritize sleep the [44:52] downstream impact of it has been [44:53] profound in a way that I could never [44:55] measure or articulate fully but just [44:58] everything seems to be better so like my [44:59] relationships with my partner um my [45:02] ability to think straight um my [45:05] motivation to go to the gym that day um [45:08] the work that I do everything so it's [45:10] there's been this big sort of radical [45:12] adjustment where I now see sleep as [45:13] actually the the starting point for all [45:17] these other choices that I make good or [45:19] bad um and that's kind of what your work [45:21] is highlighting yeah I think it's that [45:23] we have to think of these four pillars [45:25] together of Health we can't look at diet [45:27] on its own can't look at sleep on its [45:29] own can't look at stress on its own we [45:31] can't look at physical activity on its [45:32] own so if we want to improve our health [45:35] through diet I think we must be looking [45:39] our sleep [45:40] habits which we can to a certain extent [45:43] control not always I know some people [45:45] have to work shift some people don't [45:47] have a choice they're woken up by their [45:48] kids Etc we need to look at our stress I [45:51] know that's one of the hardest things to [45:53] change um we need to look at our [45:55] physical activity and our diet and they [45:57] are all so interconnected and the [46:00] predict studies that were done at Zoe [46:02] found that sleep affected metabolic [46:04] responses as much as the macronutrient [46:07] content of the meal what is what is that [46:10] what is that saying so this is some [46:13] research that we published where we [46:15] looked at people when they'd had a good [46:17] night's sleep and we looked at people [46:18] when they'd had a bad night's sleep and [46:21] we looked at their post meal post [46:24] prandial glucose response so that [46:27] basically means after having your [46:29] breakfast that's got some carbohydrate [46:31] in it how much does your blood glucose [46:33] increase we call this the post frangel [46:35] glucose response because post prangel is [46:38] Greek for postmeal and so it's a term we [46:40] use a lot in the science and we looked [46:43] at um [46:44] individuals postmeal glucose response [46:47] when they'd had a good night's sleep and [46:48] when they'd had a bad night's sleep and [46:50] what we found was within the same [46:51] individual if they'd had a bad night [46:52] sleep their postmeal glucose response so [46:55] after breakfast was a lot higher [46:57] than if they'd had a good night's sleep [47:00] so what this shows I think quite nicely [47:02] if we think back to what you said about [47:05] how you wake up more hungry when you've [47:07] not had enough sleep we know that people [47:09] make poor dietary choices for example [47:11] from the Slumber study and then we know [47:14] that the metabolic responses to those [47:16] are worse it just shows how you're kind [47:17] of creating this perfect storm and how [47:19] you can't think of it in isolation CU [47:21] firstly you're waking up and you're like [47:22] bloody hell I'm hungry secondly it's [47:24] like I'm not having that healthy [47:26] breakfast I want that Pano shocate or [47:29] you know whatever that's you giving you [47:31] that quick fix and then you have it and [47:34] you're going to have this massive blood [47:36] sugar pee compared to if you'd had a [47:37] good night's sleep and and made a [47:39] healthy choice we less hungry etc etc so [47:42] it's like creating this perfect storm [47:44] and it's all started with your sleep MH [47:48] and that's why I don't think we can look [47:49] at things in isolation anymore which is [47:51] how I have spent the previous 20 years [47:52] of my research looking at things in [47:54] isolation but that's cuz I've not been [47:57] had the luxury of being able to collect [47:59] the kind of data that we're now [48:00] collecting I get a lot of messages from [48:02] parents so uh because I'm not one yet I [48:04] don't fully understand what it is to be [48:07] a parent and the demands of Parenthood [48:09] so I'm going to defer to you on this cuz [48:12] the parents my children never slept they [48:15] never slept they did obviously but oh my [48:18] Lord how did you how did you survive [48:20] that as a parent like what's the was [48:21] there any strategies or tactics you put [48:23] in place to defend against exactly what [48:25] you just described the downstream cont [48:26] quences of sleep deprivation no because [48:29] the first four years of my children's [48:33] lives uh I was also I lost my father [48:36] when my um daughter a few weeks after my [48:38] daughter was born uh my sister and I [48:40] became full-time carers for my mother [48:42] who lived around the corner um I took a [48:45] career break looked after my mom with my [48:47] sister had two young children they [48:48] weren't sleeping I had to show up I had [48:51] to show up to help my sister look after [48:53] my mom it was about survival [48:56] I didn't think about what I ate when I [48:59] ate that was irrelevant it was about [49:01] survival to be there for my mom to be [49:03] there for my kids and whether it was [49:06] because asleep deprivation was also so [49:08] bad that it was just like driving bad [49:10] choices I don't know but there's points [49:12] in time in anyone's life that we go [49:14] through that are about survival aren't [49:16] there [49:18] and I think everything goes out of the [49:21] window and I'm not saying it should but [49:24] I think that when when you're in the [49:27] depths of whether it's sleep deprivation [49:29] because your children keeping you awake [49:31] or what I was going through you know my [49:34] mother had a de generative neurological [49:35] condition and seeing someone daily [49:39] deterior deteriorate like [49:42] that what you're doing physical activity [49:45] wise well I didn't have time to do that [49:46] what you're [49:47] eating quite often doesn't become a [49:49] priority now it's probably a time it [49:51] should be even more of a priority [49:52] because we know that what you eat [49:55] impacts your mental health you know [49:57] there's great research now showing how [49:59] important it is but when you're in that [50:01] fug of whether it's that you're [50:02] depressed or you're dealing with you [50:05] know trauma or whatever I think food is [50:07] one of the last things that you think [50:08] about making a priority and I think it's [50:11] okay you know when we talk about the [50:14] health situation in the US and the UK [50:16] with obesity On The Rise and things like [50:19] that we you people are now pointing at [50:21] things like a zmek as the cure for that [50:23] but when you speak about the role there [50:25] that stress and our life styles are [50:27] having on us and I was thinking about [50:28] some of the stats that have emerged [50:30] around anxiety and young people and them [50:32] being more um in depression rates [50:35] globally um maybe there's something else [50:37] that we should be thinking about which [50:38] is like the mental health mindfulness [50:40] piece of how that overlays with food [50:43] choices and because you know even the [50:45] food the ultr processed unhealthy foods [50:48] that are being attacked a lot these [50:51] days I mean to some degree they are a [50:53] consequence also of demand oh absolutely [50:57] so they wouldn't be making these things [50:59] if people didn't want them no and didn't [51:01] buy them so maybe if we focused more on [51:04] some of the mindfulness mental health [51:06] challenges we have in society people [51:07] would have more of a um a greater [51:11] ability to make better choices [51:13] themselves as well because I certainly [51:14] know in my life that if I'm highly [51:16] stressed or if things are difficult then [51:20] my ability to make better food choices [51:23] is significantly impaired yeah [51:25] absolutely I you know again this is what [51:26] the research shows the Sleep the stress [51:28] it impacts your ability to make choices [51:32] about lots of things but equally your [51:34] food choices you know what you're [51:36] talking about I think is so complex it's [51:38] where where's the responsibility for the [51:40] government where's the responsibility [51:41] for the food industry where's the [51:42] responsibility for us as individuals [51:45] where's the responsibility for schools [51:46] for example or for us as parents [51:48] educating our children we need to take [51:50] into account all of those different um [51:54] areas in order to improve the foods that [51:57] we're eating there is a problem that [52:00] these three dishes so the chocolate the [52:02] biscuits the crisps they are more tasty [52:06] or rather our taste buds our brains are [52:09] tricking us into thinking they're more [52:12] palatable and that's a problem do we say [52:14] to our children you can never ever have [52:16] them now I've certainly never taken that [52:18] approach I think it's all about balance [52:19] and enabling people to make the choices [52:22] that they make but I recognize if I'm [52:24] sitting there in the evening I'm a I'm a [52:26] bit stressed I've got a work deadline I [52:28] don't want to eat nuts I want to eat [52:31] those biscuits or those crisps and I [52:32] want a glass of wine with it I know [52:34] that's not the right decision I know [52:35] it's 10:00 at night but in the [52:39] moment that's the choice I probably will [52:43] make do you get frustrated with yourself [52:45] because you you know more about [52:48] nutrition than most people on planet [52:51] Earth yet you still find yourself making [52:54] at at times suboptimal nutritional [52:57] choices no I don't because I think [53:01] that it's really quite simple when we [53:04] think about the food that we eat I think [53:06] we're making it so complicated and I [53:09] think that do you know what if we eat a [53:11] good amount of fruits vegetables pulses [53:14] if we try not to eat too much heavily [53:15] processed foods if we try and get a bit [53:17] of diversity in our diet we're doing [53:20] okay so what if I go and have you know [53:23] bared chocolate as long as I'm not doing [53:24] all day every day mhm and I think this [53:28] kind of Health [53:29] optimization around [53:32] diet I think is taking away the pleasure [53:34] of food and you know I often say if a [53:37] food is too healthy to be enjoyed it's [53:39] just not healthy at all food is there to [53:42] bring us joy it's to bring us pleasure [53:44] it's part of our emotions it's part of [53:45] our culture it's part of you know our [53:48] social connections MH and I worry that [53:52] now there's a certain proportion of [53:53] society so hyperfocused [53:56] on that 1% gain in terms of the food [54:01] that they're eating that they forget all [54:03] of that pleasure so I think I have quite [54:06] a balanced approach because I know that [54:09] ultimately if you get the foundations [54:11] right the rest will follow but that [54:13] makes up [54:15] 95% of what makes a food or a diet and [54:19] that's how we need to think about what [54:20] we healthy what do you think of [54:23] diets um because there's so many bloody [54:25] diets as [54:27] there I think [54:32] that there's so much neutrols out there [54:36] Nutrabolics there is so much [54:38] misinformation out there what you see on [54:41] social media versus what the evidence [54:43] shows is like night and day I mean [54:47] seriously and so when I think about diet [54:50] my view on [54:52] diets I mean there are some that there's [54:54] some good evidence you know eat plant [54:56] eat 30 plants a week yeah that's great [55:00] um go on a low calorie diet to lose [55:01] weight great but how are you going to [55:03] maintain that weight that's a whole [55:05] other question great for losing not for [55:08] maintenance um then you've got the [55:11] alkaline diet I mean I I don't [55:15] understand that eat alkaline foods but [55:16] your stomach is acidic so got no idea [55:19] how that works the blood type [55:22] diet I don't actually know what half of [55:24] these diets do because I do not [55:27] understand the [55:28] physiological theory behind them and so [55:32] do you know what though Stephen I think [55:33] if it works for you as an individual [55:36] fine do it but if it works for you at [55:38] the expense [55:39] of the pleasure of food at the expense [55:42] of enjoying life to the fullness that's [55:46] what I think is a shame like Tim [55:47] restricted eating I think there's great [55:49] evidence around time restricted [55:51] eating now much of it comes from very [55:53] tightly metabolically controlled studies [55:55] you know that are done Clinic where [55:57] people you know eat within a five or six [55:59] hour window so they have their first [56:00] meal at 10: their last meal at 4 in the [56:02] evening reduces inflammation reduces [56:04] body weight improves blood cholesterol [56:06] etc etc [56:08] etc I don't want to only eat six hours a [56:12] day I want to have dinner with my family [56:14] I want to have dinner with my friends I [56:16] want to go to the PB in the evening not [56:18] every evening I want to live [56:21] life so what can we do that takes that [56:24] principle of that diet [56:27] but we still benefit from [56:29] it and this is what's great again about [56:31] the research that we're doing at zo [56:33] we've done this study called the bigf [56:34] study the big intermittent fasting study [56:36] we had 150,000 people sign up and we [56:39] said look we want to see if what we find [56:42] in tightly controlled clinical studies [56:44] plays out in the real world because we [56:46] always have to think how does all of [56:47] this evidence play out in the real world [56:49] does it matter and we said just limit [56:52] your eating window so the time from your [56:54] first to your last meal to 10 hours so [56:57] that means if you're having your first [56:58] meal at 10: you're having in the morning [57:00] you're having your last meal at 8 in the [57:02] evening MH that's correct isn't it [57:06] sure my paral cannot do maths um that's [57:11] quite doable for most people I can have [57:14] my breakfast at 10:00 I can finish my [57:16] last meal at 8 I mean yeah I do like [57:18] munching on my chocolate late at night I [57:20] could probably still live a happy enough [57:22] life doing that and we found people [57:24] could do it we found as well that people [57:27] who practiced it within two weeks they [57:29] felt better they had better energy [57:31] better mood um you know they were [57:33] feeling a lot better they also lost [57:35] weight many people wanted to do this [57:37] because they wanted to lose weight and [57:38] we actually see from evidence that [57:40] people practicing time restricted eating [57:43] even if they're told not to change their [57:44] calorie intake just by limiting the [57:46] eating window on average reduce the [57:48] energy intake by about 300 calories on [57:51] average there's been a big debate around [57:53] this um conversation around fasting [57:56] calorie restriction and some people say [57:58] that it's basically the same thing and [58:00] that you've kind of proven that to some [58:01] degree so we know that in most instances [58:05] if you practice time restricted eating [58:07] you unintentionally reduce your energy [58:09] intake and the data shows that on [58:11] average from the studies that published [58:12] is about 300 calories obviously depends [58:15] on the duration the reduction in body [58:18] weight also we know is dependent on the [58:22] eating window so the smaller the eating [58:24] window the greater the reduction and [58:26] body weight but there have been some [58:28] studies that actually control the amount [58:31] of calories that people eat but have [58:34] some people having it in a bigger eating [58:35] window some in a smaller eating window [58:37] and what these Studies have shown that [58:39] if you have the same amount of calories [58:42] but you change the period in time in [58:44] which you're eating your food there is [58:45] an additional benefit on metabolic [58:47] Health there is a benefit in terms of [58:50] blood lipids in terms of inflammation [58:53] independent of calories Okay so [58:56] Tim restricted eating has some benefit [59:00] independent of calories [59:02] consumption yes but the bulk of the [59:05] benefit is due to uh a reduction in [59:08] calories so there's some benefit [59:10] independent calorie restriction but the [59:12] bulk of the benefit that we see is due [59:14] to a subconscious or unintentional [59:16] reduction in calories and I think this [59:19] is when we're thinking about diets I [59:20] think we need to think about how easy is [59:23] it to implement is there any evidence [59:25] behind it and 99% there isn't for the [59:29] ones that there is evidence like Tim [59:30] restricted eating can we do it in a way [59:33] that still enables us to live our life [59:35] that's sustainable and the sustainable [59:37] point I think is really important [59:39] because there's now some new evidence [59:40] emerging around consistency MH and the [59:44] importance of consistent eating [59:47] patterns and I think this is fascinating [59:49] so there's research showing that if one [59:52] day you're having three meals and then [59:54] the next day you're having nine Mees and [59:55] the next day say you're having six meals [59:56] and the next day you're having four [59:59] meals that troubles your body it's like [60:02] whoa hold on I'm used to having you know [60:04] four eating events a day and this is [60:07] important to bear in mind when we think [60:08] about snacking if you're typically a [60:10] snacker then fine carry on snacking as [60:12] long as it's on healthy food and as long [60:13] as you have your last snack before 9: at [60:16] night if you're not a snacker having me [60:18] just vouched for the great benefits of [60:20] snacking don't start snacking because [60:22] you don't want to be [60:23] inconsistent and this new evidence [60:25] emerging around the consistency of [60:27] eating and there's some research done [60:29] actually quite some time ago that [60:30] started this idea I think is really [60:32] fascinating so try and have a consistent [60:34] eating pattern same applies to sleep try [60:37] and go to bed at the same time get up at [60:39] the same time we've done some work uh [60:41] around social jet lag don't know if [60:42] you've heard of that term uh I think [60:45] I've heard of it what does it mean so [60:47] social jet lag is where you have an [60:49] inconsistent sleeping pattern throughout [60:51] the week so for example for many maybe [60:55] 20-year old or students they might go to [60:57] bed at a sensible time in the week and [60:59] go parting and crazy at the weekend or [61:02] for someone like myself I go to bed late [61:04] at night because I'm late night working [61:07] parenting Etc and then at the weekend I [61:09] catch up so if you have more than about [61:11] a one and a half [61:13] hour uh increase or decrease in sleep [61:16] between your work days or weekend days [61:18] Etc that's called social jet lag MH so [61:21] it's a bit like jet lag going from one [61:23] country to the other and what we know is [61:26] and we've published on this from our own [61:27] zo predict research people who [61:30] experience social jet lag so have this [61:31] inconsistent sleeping pattern make poor [61:34] dietary [61:35] choices they have more inflammation they [61:38] have a different gut microbiome [61:40] composition now it might be because of [61:41] the dietary choices but again it just [61:43] plays into this whole idea that we're [61:45] talking about that we can't just think [61:47] about the food in isolation we need to [61:48] think about how we're eating out our [61:51] lifestyle Etc what else is on your [61:53] Nutrabolics [61:54] list what things bring to mind that a [61:57] lot of people believe I mean there's a [61:58] big debate raging at the moment about [61:59] seed oils because we had uh incoming um [62:04] American I guess he's a politician um [62:06] RFK Jr say recently seed oils are one of [62:09] the most unhealthy ingredients that we [62:12] have in foods and the reason they're in [62:14] Foods is because they're heavily [62:15] subsidized they're very cheap but they [62:17] are associated with all kinds of very [62:19] serious illnesses including body-wide [62:21] inflammation which affects all of our [62:23] health it's one of the worst things you [62:25] can eat it's almost impossible to avoid [62:27] if you eat any processed food sorry I'm [62:30] laugh to laugh this is like Nutrabolics [62:33] Beyond Nutrabolics but please I that's [62:35] basically it he said if you're eating [62:37] any processed food you're going to be [62:38] eating seed oils and he advocates for [62:40] replacing seed oils with beef Tallow [62:42] which is in the UK is referred to as [62:44] dripping which is pure beef fat and is a [62:48] saturated fat and he's actually selling [62:51] T-shirts um RFK Jr at the moment that [62:54] say make frying oil Tallow [62:58] again so what so seed oils what is this [63:01] weird debate that I've seen raging on on [63:03] my Instagram about seed oils I've like [63:06] managed to avoid it like I've just not [63:07] paid attention to it but I see the word [63:08] seed oils all of a sudden everywhere [63:10] okay so seed oils I think is at the top [63:12] of the neutr bolics list I I it blows my [63:16] mind what you've just read me it [63:19] seriously blows mind I've done lots of [63:20] research on seed oils so I can talk from [63:23] my own research as well as all the [63:25] evidence spaces out there there is [63:27] absolutely no evidence that is credible [63:31] evidence when interpreted in the correct [63:34] way to show seed oils are [63:36] harmful what is a seed oil so a seed oil [63:40] is an oil from a seed so the most common [63:43] seed oils in the UK is rape seed oil [63:45] which is also known as canola oil in the [63:47] US and many other countries followed by [63:49] sunflow oil the most common seed oils in [63:51] the US are soybean oil followed by rape [63:55] seed or oil followed by sunflower seed [63:58] oil and there's about three or four [64:01] arguments that people use to say that [64:05] seedor are bad for us and if you go on [64:07] social media I mean this is a perfect [64:09] example of Night and Day between [64:12] scientific evidence and what's on social [64:14] media if you go on social media seedor [64:17] are toxic seedor are going to give you [64:18] Alzheimer's seedor are going to give you [64:20] cancer seedar are going to kill [64:22] you you look at the evidence [64:26] it's totally the reverse now you can [64:29] have sensible boring scientists like me [64:32] say seedor is a really good for you you [64:34] could put that as one of your assets or [64:37] whatever you call it or adverts for this [64:40] m so we could say seedor are really good [64:42] for you Steven or I could tell you [64:45] seedles are toxic they're going to kill [64:46] you everyone's trying to kill us with [64:48] seedles what's going to get more clicks [64:51] probably the toxic seed oil narrative [64:54] and so the sensible science there's no [64:57] Silver Bullet there's no like you know [65:00] crazy inflammatory argument the sensible [65:02] science isn't going to get the click so [65:04] unfortunately the voices of reason and [65:07] often it comes from boring academics [65:09] like myself not saying other academics [65:10] are boring but sensible academics like [65:12] myself that give the you know the [65:13] balance we we don't get a voice we're [65:16] not being heard which is one of the [65:18] reasons that you know I wanted to come [65:20] on this show because of the [65:22] misinformation and we have to get the [65:24] voice of reason out there we have to get [65:26] the voice of reason so things like that [65:28] to do with seed alls are not what's [65:30] dominating the [65:31] headlines so what people say in terms of [65:35] seedor is firstly our intake of seedor [65:38] has increased 100 fold the last 20 30 40 [65:41] 50 years and with that increase in seed [65:43] oil intake so has cancer increased so [65:48] has cardiovascular disease increased so [65:50] has obesity increased so has Alzheimer's [65:53] etc etc so must be to do the SE oils [65:56] well what else has changed in that 50 [65:58] years we're more sedent we eat loads of [66:02] these other it's heavily processed foods [66:04] that got all of these other ingredients [66:05] in you know the sugar the this the that [66:08] so much else has changed you know you [66:11] can't put it all down to the fact that [66:13] at that point in time seed oils were [66:15] also changing we also know that about [66:17] 60% of the seed oil that we eat is [66:21] actually in these heavily processed [66:23] unhealthy Foods so it's the first [66:24] argument they say and you see these [66:26] beautiful figures that they put out [66:28] where you see on one axis the intake of [66:30] cedor you see on the other axis um you [66:33] know uh o over time you'll see uh for [66:36] example like rates of cancer and you see [66:38] rates of cancer or rates of [66:39] cardiovascular disease going up lineally [66:42] with the intake of seed oil but we have [66:44] to think what else has changed in that [66:46] time the other arguments that they use [66:48] are theoretical arguments based on [66:50] biochemical Pathways and I spend an hour [66:54] teaching this to our undergrad and I'm [66:56] not going to bore you with that [66:57] biochemical [66:58] part but they talk about the ratio of um [67:03] a particular fatty acid which is Omega 6 [67:05] which is found in high levels in seed [67:07] oils and omega-3 which is another fatty [67:11] acid and they talk about how having lots [67:14] of seedles changes this ratio makes uh [67:17] this pro-inflammatory state because it [67:19] increases a particular Downstream [67:22] chemicals etc etc [67:26] what we know from kind of theoretical [67:29] biochemical Pathways and enzymes Etc [67:32] doesn't actually play out in humans [67:35] we're so clever we have all of these [67:37] mechanisms in place to control [67:39] inflammation to control oxidative stress [67:41] to control Downstream impacts of foods [67:45] and so this argument that is also used [67:48] to say that Omega six fatty acids so the [67:51] main fat that's found in many of these [67:53] seed ORS is pro-inflammatory [67:56] is not supported by any evidence it's [67:58] not supported by tightly controlled [68:00] clinical trials if anything it's shown [68:02] to be anti-inflammatory that levels of [68:05] in inflammatory um circulating Mo [68:08] molecules actually [68:10] reduce and yet they use this kind of [68:14] theoretical argument or what they've [68:16] seen in a Petri dish for example or in a [68:18] test tube so where is this narrative [68:21] come from where where did it originate [68:23] from that seed oils were were toxic was [68:25] it just one of those things that just [68:26] snowball I think it's one of those [68:28] things that snowball and I think it does [68:32] fit in with the whole uh argument that [68:36] people are using against old processed [68:37] food it does fit in with other other [68:39] narratives that are going on I think [68:42] some people can be very clever in [68:44] cherry-picking research so there's a [68:48] study called the Sydney har study and in [68:50] this study this was done in the 70s and [68:52] this is a study that's used often to [68:55] advocate for the toxic effects of seed [68:58] oils and in this study uh males that had [69:02] had a heart event or a heart attack of [69:05] sorts uh were uh randomly allocated to [69:08] either increase um [69:12] their omega-6 so this particular type of [69:16] fatty acid that we is in seed oils um in [69:19] their diet by having lots of seed oil MH [69:22] or they were asked to just follow their [69:25] normal diet which is quite high in [69:26] saturated fat and what they found is [69:29] those that increased their seed oil [69:31] intake went on to have worse Health [69:34] outcomes now the problem with that is is [69:37] that in those days the majority of seed [69:39] oils underwent an industrial process [69:42] called partial [69:43] hydrogenation and partial hydrogenation [69:46] produces a very harmful fat called trans [69:49] fats you might have heard of trans heard [69:51] of the word yeah and so they were eating [69:54] this seed oil in the form of a margarine [69:57] or fat spread that had undergone partial [69:59] hydrogenation and therefore was full of [70:01] trans fats trans fats increase [70:03] cholesterol trans fats increase [70:04] inflammation trans fats are bad fast [70:06] that's why they are not in our food [70:07] supply [70:08] anymore and so of course that seed oil [70:11] was going to cause worse Health outcomes [70:13] but it's not how seed oil is consumed [70:15] now and so it's that clever cherry [70:17] picking of evidence that often supports [70:19] a lot of the neutr bolics that's out [70:23] there yeah and you know people [70:26] you know with all these studies out [70:28] there and with some studies having less [70:30] rigor [70:32] and studies that aren't don't have sort [70:35] of the randomized control element or [70:38] what's the other term for a study where [70:39] they do um they look at like 50 studies [70:41] at once so they're met analysis we do [70:44] randomized control trials so these will [70:46] be trials where there's always a control [70:48] arm will randomly allocate some people [70:51] to an intervention like seed oils and [70:54] some people to control could be [70:55] saturated fat could be beef Tallow [70:57] that's been done and then we look at [70:59] different Health outcomes we follow them [71:01] over a period of time or it could be [71:03] that I ask you for a month to have seed [71:04] oils and then next month have beef [71:06] Tallow for example and then we'll look [71:08] at different Health outcomes compare how [71:09] you responded to one versus the other [71:12] and then what we do as scientists is if [71:14] there's enough of these clinical trials [71:16] these randomized control trials we put [71:18] them all together into what's called a [71:20] metaanalysis and we look what does the [71:22] metaanalysis show so for example for [71:24] seedor there's met analysis for example [71:26] of um about [71:28] 42 uh randomized control trials where [71:31] they comp seed oils to other fats [71:33] showing consistently that there is no [71:36] harmful benefit that actually there's a [71:39] reduction in cardiovascular disease [71:41] because the particular fat that's in [71:43] seed oil has a really potent cholesterol [71:45] lowering effect so it's actually [71:47] beneficial for our health yet beef [71:49] Tallow is full of saturated Fair it's [71:53] full of ptic acid which is a particular [71:55] type of saturated fat that we know is [71:56] bad for us there has been studies and [71:59] these studies were done many years ago [72:01] when uh beef Tallow was actually used [72:04] comparing seedor with beef Tallow seedor [72:06] always were came out better seedor [72:08] always reduce cholesterol compared to [72:10] beef Tallow reduced inflammation Etc [72:12] reduced cardiovascular risk factors [72:15] you're very passionate about this I am [72:17] because I've researched I as a research [72:20] active scientist where I've run [72:22] randomized control Charles and I tell [72:24] you what you sweat Blood and Tears I [72:26] love my research but it's bleming hard [72:28] work doing a clinical trial you know [72:31] getting ethical approval recruiting [72:32] people changing people's diet running [72:35] dietary studies is really hard because [72:37] it's not a case of giving them a pill if [72:39] I'm going to give you seedor I've got to [72:41] think well how am I going to do that [72:43] what am I what instead of what what am I [72:45] taking out of your diet to give you that [72:46] how am I going to make sure the rest of [72:48] your diet is control so once you run [72:50] studies yourself and you sweat at that [72:52] blood and tears and then you see this [72:54] nutriol this misinformation out there [72:57] it's really bloody frustrating but it's [72:59] a good thing that people like yourself [73:02] are leaning into the mediums now of like [73:06] podcasting because it's worth saying [73:08] that as it relates to the sort of [73:11] transfer of information it's typically [73:13] people who have either a platform or who [73:17] are great public speakers or great sales [73:19] people that are ultimately going to like [73:21] resonate the most reach the furthest [73:23] with their information irrespective of [73:24] whether that information is is credible [73:27] so it's good to see more and more people [73:29] that are are in the research now sort of [73:31] stepping away from the research [73:33] laboratory and coming into environments [73:35] where they can provide counteracting [73:37] information and as someone that's on my [73:39] own Journey To Figure to sort of weave [73:41] through all of this information to find [73:43] out what's right for me um it's [73:46] difficult and for a lot of people it's [73:48] super difficult I mean the way that I [73:50] kind of my own framework for this is I [73:52] listen to things and then I don't don't [73:55] necessarily trust one source to be true [73:57] but I I I almost like wait [74:01] the authority experience and the rigor [74:04] behind how they've arrived that [74:06] information and then I guess I perform [74:08] my own meta analysis across lots of [74:10] different people that I speak to and [74:11] guests and information that I get to [74:13] find the sweet spots where the sweet [74:16] spot for me is many people have said it [74:19] that I think have a lot of sort of rigor [74:22] and authority and um [74:26] uh experience in that subject matter so [74:28] then I accept it to be true whereas I'm [74:30] not going to go on Instagram and see a [74:31] real popup in it says that I don't know [74:34] putting sugar in your eyeballs is good [74:35] and I'm not going to crack on with it [74:37] just because the person's got Charisma [74:39] and I think in the world we live in [74:40] where there is now this decentralization [74:43] of information which has its upsides and [74:45] its downsides we all need to have our [74:47] own decision framework um set aside what [74:50] is true but I think yours is more [74:52] rigorous than most so many people get [74:55] their information from One Source many [74:58] people trust one source [75:01] and you're right that as academics we're [75:05] rarely given a platform yeah and this is [75:07] what I valued most actually about what [75:09] I've done at Zoe well being able to do [75:11] the kind of trials that we're doing but [75:13] being able to have a platform not just [75:14] for me but for us to invite other [75:16] credible scientists onto the Zoe podcast [75:19] or for me to come on to this kind of [75:20] podcast we're not trained as academics [75:23] how to communicate we're trained how [75:25] to you know run good studies in my case [75:29] you know run clinical trials interpret [75:31] the evidence evaluate the evidence [75:32] critique the evidence and you know I'm [75:35] selftaught to present the evidence to [75:37] other [75:38] academics but we're not taught to [75:40] communicate it to the general public so [75:43] for me it's been a journey working at [75:44] Zoe of trying to communicate really [75:47] complex stuff like I would have loved to [75:49] have spent an hour telling you about the [75:51] biochemical pathway of why um seed oil [75:55] don't impact inflammation yeah but I [75:58] know that really you're not interested [76:00] the listeners aren't interested but you [76:02] know I'm hoping that by informing them [76:05] that I've done these studies and that [76:06] these are the results there's trust that [76:08] actually what we found is true but we're [76:11] the smallest voice out there the [76:13] research active scientists partly [76:15] because of time you know I'm I'm still [76:18] in you know running trials running uh [76:21] you know different [76:23] interventions but also [76:26] I think many of the big [76:29] platforms aren't giving us the [76:32] opportunity necessarily [76:34] because we haven't got the most exciting [76:37] things to say because at the end of the [76:39] day you know we'll present the evidence [76:42] we'll present it with caveat we'll [76:43] present it with [76:45] caution and you know I will always say [76:48] on as I were to students I'm teaching [76:50] what I'm telling you now is based on [76:52] what the evidence shows now in 10 years [76:54] time I might be totally wrong MH all of [76:57] these trials showing seedor are fine I [76:59] might be wrong in 10 years time I mean I [77:01] doubt it I doubt it because there's [77:04] enough research but as scientists that's [77:06] something else you know we we always [77:09] caveat with and I think sometimes that's [77:11] difficult for the general public maybe I [77:13] mean I might be doing a disservice I [77:15] don't know that you have the nonactive [77:19] SC or or non-active influencers science [77:22] influencers I don't know what you call [77:23] them that speak with such certainty now [77:25] I will if it's my study so I'll talk [77:28] with certainty over the seedor study [77:29] because I've done them I've been there [77:31] in the lab analyzing it or I'll speak [77:33] with certainty over snacking data [77:34] because I've you know sweat Blood and [77:36] Tears over you know running the stats [77:39] Etc but I won't talk with certainty [77:42] about anything else that I haven't done [77:44] myself and yet you have other people [77:46] talk with such certainty and I think [77:47] that's what instills confidence in maybe [77:49] listeners and that's why they get more [77:53] viewers if you you've been thinking of [77:55] starting your own business I want to [77:57] take a moment to nudge you into action [77:59] this is the month to begin and my show [78:01] sponsor Shopify has made it easy enough [78:03] to turn that business idea in your head [78:05] into a reality so if you've got the idea [78:07] Shopify has the tools they remove all of [78:10] the hurdles that usually come when [78:11] launching an online business with [78:12] thousands of customizable templates and [78:14] intuitive tools you can launch a global [78:16] storefront in minutes reaching customers [78:19] all over the world and here's the kicker [78:21] all your sales channels are in one place [78:24] including any social media marketplaces [78:25] you want to sell through so I'll leave [78:27] you with this question how will you feel [78:30] if a year from now you're still in the [78:33] same spot the time is now to take that [78:36] leap and sign up for your1 per month [78:38] trial at shopify.com [78:41] Bartlet that's shopify.com [78:45] Bartlet there's a lot of neutr bolics [78:47] Around Da right yep um I think the [78:50] prevailing Nutrabolics is that Dair is [78:52] bad for you yep so there's not lots of [78:56] Nutrabolics around Dairy and it's [78:58] related to the Nutrabolics also around [79:00] saturated fat so as a whole we know [79:04] saturated fat is bad for us Dairy [79:07] contributes to most of the saturated fat [79:09] intake in the [79:11] UK so therefore we could say all Dair is [79:14] bad for us but no Dairy is a diverse [79:18] food group you've got cheese you've got [79:20] yogurt you've got butter you've got milk [79:23] and how they impact our health is vastly [79:26] different depending on whether it's a [79:27] liquid a solid it's fermented it's [79:28] non-fermented etc etc and grouping them [79:32] all together is as ridiculous as [79:34] grouping all these snacks together in [79:36] terms of their health [79:37] effects and what we now know is that [79:41] some Dairy is actually good for us so [79:45] some Dairy like [79:47] cheese like yogurt and I don't mean this [79:50] really kind of heavily sweetened sugary [79:52] yogurt I mean like your Greek yogurt [79:54] shafe those sorts of things you're [79:55] playing yogur they've undergone a [79:58] process called fermentation and that [80:00] changes the food Matrix so again we're [80:02] coming back to that whole importance of [80:04] the structure of the food and by [80:06] changing the food Matrix changes how our [80:09] body handles it how our bodies how the [80:12] health effect of their cheese we don't [80:14] fully understand how there's some great [80:16] research being undertaken at Reading [80:18] university really diving into this uh [80:21] but what we know is if you have cheese [80:24] within reason if you have yogurt within [80:26] reason it does not increase your [80:28] cholesterol despite being high and [80:30] saturated fat now have to caution that [80:33] I'm not saying people should go and have [80:35] you know 300 grams of cheese every day [80:37] but within normal kind of intakes of a [80:39] few portions a day it does not increase [80:41] people's cholesterol having cheese or [80:43] having you know good uh yogurt butter on [80:48] the other hand we do know does increase [80:50] your cholesterol now if you're having at [80:51] the kind of level that you would maybe [80:53] just putting on a bit of toast I [80:54] wouldn't worry so much but we do know [80:57] that if you were to compare cheese [80:59] versus butter which has almost the same [81:02] fat [81:03] composition and this has been shown in [81:05] randomized control trials the butter [81:07] will increase your cholesterol but the [81:09] cheese will not and nuts a lot of people [81:11] say that nuts cause weight gain no the [81:16] evidence does not support that so we [81:19] know [81:20] that [81:21] um people who consume nuts [81:25] based on the totality of the evidence do [81:27] not gain weight we know this from [81:29] epidemiological data I.E people who [81:31] consume more nuts um tend to quite often [81:35] have a lower BMI now that could be [81:36] confounded by the fact that nut [81:39] consumers and only about 10% in the UK [81:41] and even less about 7% in the US even [81:43] consume USS not consumers tend to have a [81:45] healthier overall diet so there is that [81:47] confounding but clinical trials show [81:50] that if you add nuts your diet are [81:52] included you do not gain weight now that [81:54] might be partly because of the [81:56] mechanisms that we've talked about to do [81:58] with the food Matrix that 20 to 30% of [82:00] the calories are being excreted so the [82:02] backup pack labeling shows that per [82:04] portion of n is 170 calories but [82:07] actually on average you only absorb 130 [82:09] calories so lots of it's coming out it [82:11] might be because you know they're [82:12] feeding the microbiome that's helping [82:15] you know reduce adiposity it's also nuts [82:18] a satiating so they make you feel more [82:20] full they also blunt your blood sugar [82:22] response they have so many other [82:24] benefits that counterbalance any [82:26] potential for weight game and is there [82:28] anything else on the Nutrabolics list um [82:31] that is worth highlighting I would say [82:34] that I think there's still lots of [82:36] confusion around saturated fat okay and [82:38] around cholesterol so cholesterol I went [82:41] and did a blood test and uh the doctor [82:43] said to me that one of my cholesterol [82:46] was a little bit on the higher side this [82:48] was last year so and think it was the is [82:51] it the HDL cholesterol I don't know the [82:54] way that I experienced it was there's [82:55] this good cholesterol and this bad [82:56] cholesterol and like my bad one was like [82:59] a little bit you know behave like it's [83:01] getting a little bit into the region [83:03] where he might have more of a Stern talk [83:05] with me that was last year I think I've [83:07] done better this year but what is [83:09] cholesterol and my simplified [83:11] explanation of it is that is that flawed [83:14] in some way good bad no it's always a [83:18] little bit more nuanced a little bit [83:19] more complex um but there are two ways [83:24] that we can look at cholesterol we can [83:26] look at cholesterol in terms of the [83:27] cholesterol that we eat right and that's [83:29] where I think there's a lot of [83:30] misinformation and we can look at [83:32] cholesterol in terms of the cholesterol [83:34] that our body produces so our liver is [83:35] constantly churning out cholesterol when [83:37] the liver CHS out cholesterol it [83:39] packages cholesterol into to do two [83:41] different kind of packages or two [83:43] different types of parcels and the [83:46] labeling so to say on these Parcels [83:48] determines the health effects of that [83:51] cholesterol so you've got your HDL [83:54] cholesterol which we call our good [83:56] cholesterol you've got your LDL [83:58] cholesterol which we call your bad [83:59] cholesterol okay so L is bad yes H is [84:02] good okay they're actually the same in [84:04] terms of the cholesterol but it's the [84:05] label that's on the parcel the label in [84:08] terms of which is directing where they [84:11] go which is different so in really [84:14] simple terms LDL is directed um posted [84:18] to your peripheral tissues to your blood [84:20] vessels where it can be taken up and in [84:22] the right um environment where there's [84:24] inflammation Ox stress Etc can result in [84:27] atherosclerosis which is that kind of [84:29] furring of the arteries uh which over [84:32] time can build up and can lead to you [84:34] know heart attack etc etc okay HDL in [84:38] very simple terms has a label on it that [84:40] actually enables the reverse cholesterol [84:44] transport so actually almost kind of [84:46] cleans up some of the cholesterol this [84:48] is kind of in very simple terms so if [84:50] any lipidologists are listening they [84:52] might be a bit frustrated uh but in very [84:54] simple terms and kind of brings it back [84:56] to the liver for disposal okay so that's [84:59] why it's considered good what we know is [85:01] that the amount of LDL cholesterol [85:03] that's [85:04] circulating is really important in terms [85:06] of our cardiovascular disease risk there [85:08] are some cholesterol deniers and I know [85:10] you've had on your show a cholesterol [85:12] denier I don't believe in the evidence [85:14] he presents I think that the totality of [85:17] the evidence is very very clear that as [85:19] your LDL cholesterol increases your risk [85:21] of cardiovascular disease your risk of [85:23] all cause mortality [85:25] increases where there is misinformation [85:29] is around dietary cholesterol that there [85:32] was this perception years ago that if [85:34] you have foods high in dietary [85:36] cholesterol like eggs yeah that it will [85:39] increase your circulating cholesterol [85:42] and therefore increase your risk of [85:43] heart disease and therefore there was a [85:45] limit years ago put on how many eggs we [85:47] should eat how much cholesterol we [85:48] should [85:49] consume we now know within certain [85:53] limits [85:55] So within the limits that we typically [85:57] eat our food containing cholesterol that [86:00] dietary cholesterol does not impact our [86:01] circula cholesterol obviously at [86:03] extremes it does but if you're having [86:06] one to two eggs a day that's an intake [86:08] of cholesterol that's not going to [86:10] negatively for most people impact your [86:12] circulating levels of this LDL bad [86:14] cholesterol if you're having 10 eggs a [86:16] day then I would be worried okay okay [86:22] but yeah cholesterol is another area of [86:24] neutrols and then you know on this whole [86:27] area of cholesterol heart disease I [86:30] think a really frustrating area of [86:32] neutri bolics is saturated [86:34] fat so we'll talk about saturated fats [86:37] just so I'm I'm super clear on the [86:38] cholesterol Point what foods have really [86:40] high levels of cholest L the circulating [86:42] cholesterol in them okay so you've got [86:45] dietary cholesterol which is just the [86:47] cholesterol that's in the food yeah and [86:51] that has very little impact on [86:52] circulating cholesterol okay [86:54] then you have cholesterol that the liver [86:57] produces and the liver produces that [86:59] from [87:00] scratch and it's di how diet impacts the [87:04] liver production that determines how [87:06] diet impacts our circulating cholesterol [87:09] so saturated fat increases the [87:12] production of cholesterol by our liver [87:15] and reduces the removal of cholesterol [87:17] by our liver highly refined [87:19] carbohydrates can also increase the [87:21] production of cholesterol by our liver [87:24] so when we're thinking about how diet [87:26] impacts our cholesterol particularly our [87:28] LDL so our bad cholesterol we don't need [87:32] to F worry so much about dietary [87:34] cholesterol I how much cholesterol is in [87:36] a food Because unless it's extreme it [87:38] will have a minimal impact we need to [87:40] think about how much saturated fat for [87:42] example we're having because that's one [87:43] of the main dietary determents of our [87:45] cholesterol level okay and what is a [87:47] saturated fat so versus like a normal [87:51] fat like is there good and bad fats yes [87:53] they good and bad fats all of the fats [87:55] that we eat or 98% of the fat that we [87:57] eat comes in the form of a molecule [87:59] called [88:02] triglyceride and a triglyceride has [88:05] within it Three fatty acids and it's the [88:09] mix of these fatty acids that [88:12] determine the um Health properties of [88:15] that triglyceride the Melt profile of [88:17] that trde etc [88:19] etc and there's lots of different types [88:22] of fatty acids so you're probably [88:24] familiar with amino acids which are [88:26] types of protein MH and in the way that [88:28] amino acids are what make up protein [88:30] fatty acids are what make up a fat and [88:33] the quality of that fat and we typically [88:36] uh separate them into three main classes [88:39] saturated monounsaturated and [88:42] polyunsaturated and you might have heard [88:44] of those terms yeah Loosely yeah and [88:48] saturated fatty acids differ in terms of [88:52] their biochemistry and I W bore you with [88:54] that um two mono and polyunsaturated [88:57] fatty acids they also differ in terms of [89:00] their melt profiles so like how hard [89:03] they are or liquid they are most tend to [89:05] be hard hence why most hard fats like [89:08] butter you know most animal fats which [89:11] are hard at room temperature tend to be [89:13] high in saturated fats mono and [89:16] polyunsaturated fatty acids differ from [89:18] saturated fatty acids in terms of their [89:20] biochemistry in terms of their melt [89:21] profile they tend to be liquid [89:24] um and polyunsaturated fatty acids are a [89:26] very special type of fatty acid because [89:28] they're actually essential for us our [89:29] body can't make them and so they're [89:32] essential fatty acids and one of those [89:34] is [89:34] omega-6 which is the fatty acid found in [89:37] sedol which is what people say is why [89:40] seedor are bad for us which hopefully we [89:42] debunk there [89:45] and saturated fat as a whole we know is [89:48] linked to increased risk of [89:50] cardiovascular disease increased risk of [89:51] or cause mortality [89:55] but there's lots of people that say you [89:58] know we've got it wrong as nutritional [89:59] scientists we don't know what we're [90:00] talking about it because actually [90:01] there's this metaanalysis that showed [90:03] that actually saturated fat isn't bad [90:06] for us and that's because when we think [90:08] about the health effects of food we have [90:10] to always think of that instead of [90:12] what so there was some work that was [90:15] carried out looking at hundreds and [90:16] hundreds of different clinical trials [90:19] where they've replaced saturated fat in [90:21] the diet with carbohydrates or trans fat [90:24] or polyunsaturated fats or mon [90:25] unsaturated fats and what this research [90:28] showed is that if you replace saturated [90:30] fats with whole grain [90:34] carbohydrates you have an improvement in [90:36] health if you replace saturated fats [90:38] with poly or monounsaturated fats you [90:40] have an improvement in health if you [90:43] replace saturated fats with refined [90:46] carbohydrates there's no [90:49] difference so you could take that study [90:52] and you could say and this is of [90:53] hundreds of different studies and say [90:55] saturated fats are really bad for us [90:57] because we know that if you replace them [90:59] with whole grain or poly oron [91:01] unsaturated fats you have a beneficial [91:03] effect or I could take the same analysis [91:05] and say oh saturated fats are fine [91:07] nutritionists have got it all wrong [91:10] because actually there's no detrimental [91:13] effect if you compare it with refined [91:15] carbohydrates and this is exactly what [91:17] happened when this metaanalysis came out [91:20] about probably about 15 years ago I [91:23] remember looking at the headlines of two [91:25] different papers I won't say what the [91:26] papers are but one I would say is a [91:28] little bit more evidence-based and one [91:30] is a good example of clickbait headlines [91:33] they had totally different [91:35] headlines one said nutrition scientists [91:38] have got it all wrong we've been lied to [91:40] saturated fats are fine the other said [91:43] research again consistently shows [91:46] saturated fats are detrimental to our [91:48] health obviously that one's [91:50] right and they're talking about the same [91:52] study talking about the same study [91:54] because it's the instead of what and [91:57] that's really important when we think [91:58] about the health effects the other thing [92:00] that does complicate things a little bit [92:02] of saturated fats is there's lots of [92:03] different types of saturated fats we [92:06] know that the type of saturated fat [92:07] matters but we know the food Matrix that [92:09] it is in that matters and the dairy is a [92:11] great example so you have cheese and [92:13] butter exactly the same or almost [92:15] identical fat composition to entirely [92:18] different effects on our cholesterol so [92:20] it is a little bit more Nuance than [92:21] saying all saturated fats bad it depends [92:24] on the type and the food it's in and [92:26] what types of food have um saturated [92:29] fats that have [92:30] a less than healthy food Matrix so I [92:34] would say the type of saturated fats [92:35] that we want to avoid are the saturated [92:38] fats that are found in most animal [92:40] products except fermented dairy except [92:43] cheese except yogurt so beef [92:46] Tallow I would say the evidence [92:48] consistently shows is not favorable for [92:51] our health lard mhm butter in large [92:56] amounts um you know and then the meat [92:58] that's the the fat that's intrinsic to [93:00] the meat takes salami you can see the [93:02] fat in there take steak for example you [93:05] know cut off the visible bits of the fat [93:07] it's okay in small amounts I'm not [93:09] saying we should avoid it [93:11] totally but if you have the option of [93:14] kind of cutting off trimming the fat [93:16] then I would and then there are some [93:18] tropical oils that are very high in [93:20] saturated fat palm oil for example [93:23] coconut oil although the JW is out on [93:26] the health effects of coconut oil but [93:27] palmo for example is very high in [93:29] saturated fat we know it increases our [93:31] cholesterol if you had to give me some [93:34] principles for eating based on [93:35] everything we've talked about today just [93:37] like and I and I had to force you to [93:39] just give me five principles for eating [93:43] what would those five principles [93:46] be five [93:49] okay I would say first and foremost find [93:54] food or dietry pattern that you [93:58] enjoy that brings you pleasure cookies [94:01] okay but we are not these aren't [94:04] exclusive to each other Stephen okay [94:05] okay fine that brings me [94:08] pleasure okay that's really important [94:10] these are not exclusive okay so a [94:13] dietary pattern that brings you [94:16] pleasure [94:18] because because food is there to be [94:21] enjoyed and it will be a sustainable [94:24] dietary pattern and because we know that [94:27] consistency and sustainability is really [94:29] important in how you eat [94:32] okay second I would say think about how [94:36] you [94:37] eat think about how fast you're eating [94:40] slow down chew more chew more don't eat [94:46] late at [94:48] night try and eat within a 10 or 12 hour [94:51] eating window and just on this t point [94:54] you were before we started recording you [94:55] you were saying that you wouldn't mind [94:58] if I chewed some nuts and spat them out [94:59] so you could look look at them um why [95:01] does chewing more have a impact again [95:04] just so I can I'm clear [95:07] so chewing uh can impact how you break [95:11] the food down yeah obviously uh but we [95:14] also know chewing impacts your hunger [95:17] and your fullness signals so there's [95:19] some evidence to show if you chew your [95:21] food 40 times versus 15 times it can [95:24] result in a difference in how full that [95:27] food makes you feel okay so the chewing [95:30] effect is sending some kind of signal [95:32] yep yep to my brain yep again this isn't [95:36] an area that I I have expertise in but [95:38] that's what the evidence is showing so [95:40] as well as your gut sending signals to [95:43] your brain receptors on your gut saying [95:44] whether you're full there's something [95:46] going on when you're chewing your food [95:47] as well that's important okay um and [95:50] chewing your food also changes the rate [95:54] therefore at which you're eating so it [95:56] changes your eating speed ah okay makes [95:59] sense so on that second Point I've got [96:01] slow down two more don't eat late at [96:03] night and eat within a 10 to 12 hour [96:05] eating [96:06] window 10 12 hour eating window then the [96:09] third would be Go Back to Basics yep [96:13] have a good amount of fiber have a good [96:15] amount of healthy oils that's your olive [96:18] oils in your olive oil D I say it seed [96:22] oils but olive oil I would say is the [96:24] king and queen of the oils [96:27] um [96:29] and you know have that balanced plate [96:33] rather than obsessing over a single [96:35] food okay number [96:38] four don't think of food in isolation [96:42] Okay think about your diet in relation [96:44] to or alongside your sleep your stress [96:47] your physical [96:50] activity and number five can you remind [96:53] me of what I've I've done yes so I'm 48 [96:56] I'm in the depth of per menopause I'm [96:58] one of those like 90% of people that [97:00] have brain fog and memory loss so number [97:03] one uh was food that brings you pleasure [97:06] which is sustainable and allows you to [97:08] be consistent number two is really [97:09] thinking about how you eat so slowing [97:11] down chewing more not eating late at [97:13] night and trying to have a a a shorter [97:15] eating window of 10 to 12 hours number [97:17] three was Go Back to Basics which is [97:19] high fiber whole grains fruits healthy [97:22] oils and overall just a balanced play [97:25] and number four is don't think of your [97:27] nutrition in isolation so think of it in [97:29] the context of your exercise your sleep [97:31] and all of these other lifestyle factors [97:33] and number five don't deny [97:36] yourself anything think think about what [97:40] you can add in rather than what you take [97:42] away don't deny yourself anything so [97:46] cookies are still on the [97:48] menu occasionally [97:51] yes you mentioned the [97:54] um per menopause you said you're in per [97:56] menopause currently how does that factor [97:59] into everything we've talked about today [98:01] and what is the because I've got this [98:02] graph here that I'd found um about the [98:06] menopause transition which talks about [98:08] how different sort of things are [98:09] happening inside the body you've [98:11] probably seen this quite a few times [98:12] before which I'll put on the screen and [98:13] link below for anybody but what is the [98:15] relationship between my diet and my [98:18] menopause journey is there anything to [98:21] be aware of there is I mean that you [98:23] know the menopause has a huge impact on [98:26] how we respond to food it has a huge [98:28] impact generally on all of these pillars [98:31] of Health that we've talked about our [98:32] sleep our stress our physical activity [98:35] you know and diet and I think it's [98:38] something we're talking about a lot more [98:40] now and we should be talking about it a [98:43] lot more now you know 50% of the [98:45] population at some point are going to go [98:46] through the menopause and it's a [98:50] transitional period of great disturbance [98:52] great disruption and of great burden to [98:56] many women and we've conducted lots of [98:58] research uh at Z on the menopause and [99:01] what we know is that prior to uh the [99:05] menopause which is basically the point [99:08] one year after your last menstrual cycle [99:11] you have this per menopausal transition [99:13] period where your estrogen and other [99:15] hormones are fluctuating dayto day so [99:17] it's like this roller coaster which I [99:19] think your graph shows really nicely [99:21] you've got this roller coaster of [99:22] hormones [99:24] and so what's happening is is your [99:26] estrogen isn't just slowly declining as [99:29] you reach per menopause so that [99:31] transitional period before your [99:32] menopause but you're on this roller [99:35] coaster um and it becomes more regulated [99:39] after the [99:41] menopause but you're still in that point [99:45] where you're having less estrogen so [99:46] less of the hormone that we know has [99:49] such wide reaching effects and the [99:52] reason that the per menopause transition [99:54] as well as postmenopause period in a [99:56] women's life is so important is because [99:59] estrogen the hormone that fluctuates [100:02] during the per menopause and then [100:03] reduces and declines in [100:06] postmenopause has effects all over our [100:08] body nearly every cell in our body has [100:10] estrogen receptors so our brain um our [100:14] blood vessels nearly everywhere so this [100:17] roller coaster of estrogen during the [100:19] per menopausal phase and also the [100:20] reduction postmenopausally has [100:22] far-reaching [100:23] uh health effects so for example [100:26] postmenopausally women are five times [100:28] greater risk of having a heart attack [100:30] now some of that's due to age but it's [100:32] also due to the loss in estrogen women [100:34] are five times more likely to have [100:36] abdominal obesity which is fat around [100:38] the tummy and that's because of [100:39] estrogen's role in uh fat tissue [100:42] deposition so where fat tissue is [100:45] deposited we see in our own Zer predict [100:47] research Prem menopause women are doing [100:51] well compared to men in terms of many of [100:53] these what we call intermediary risk [100:54] factors of cardiovascular disease blood [100:56] pressure cholesterol glucose insulin Etc [100:59] as soon as they hit the menopause [101:00] suddenly they catch up with men and it [101:03] gets worse and so suddenly their blood [101:05] pressure is higher than men or their [101:06] cholesterol is the same level as men so [101:09] we see this as well in our zoedic [101:10] research that postmenopausally and per [101:14] menopausal people's cholesterol and [101:16] their bad cholesterol their LDL [101:17] cholesterol increases by 25% and this is [101:20] all related to the wide reaching role [101:23] estrogen has in our body we also see the [101:27] estrogen impacts and therefore the per [101:29] menopause and postmenopause how we [101:31] metabolize food so we see bigger [101:34] excursions in postmill glucose and [101:37] postmill fat after the menopause again [101:39] it's all linked to the role that [101:40] estrogen plays uh in our metabolism and [101:44] then I think what's most important to be [101:48] aware of regarding the per menopause and [101:51] postmenopause phase is is the symptoms [101:54] that women [101:56] experience [101:57] and we've done some research in 70,000 [102:01] individuals where we've looked at how [102:03] prevalent these symptoms are we see that [102:06] 99% of per menopause or women experience [102:09] at least one menopausal symptom we see [102:11] that 66% of per menopausal women have 12 [102:15] symptoms or [102:16] more and this has a huge burden we know [102:18] from other surveys 10% of women leave [102:21] the workforce during the per menopause [102:24] and post-menopausal phase because of the [102:26] burden that these symptoms have on their [102:28] quality of life and what age does this [102:31] typically occur the per menopausal [102:33] symptoms so uh typically people become [102:36] menopausal as in postmenopausal stop [102:39] their menstrual cycles at 51 the [102:42] menopausal transition period can be [102:44] anything from 2 to 10 years typically [102:47] people would say maybe around the ages [102:49] of [102:50] 47 many women start to experience p [102:53] menopausal uh symptoms and these include [102:56] symptoms like brain fog anxiety memory [102:59] loss irritability low libido change in [103:05] metabolism um and now I'm in that PO [103:07] menopausal phase and I've forgotten all [103:09] of the others but there's about 50 [103:11] symptoms that are recognized and we see [103:13] in our own research that the amount of [103:16] women experiencing symptoms is really [103:18] high so we see that 85% of women are [103:20] saying they have brain fog they have [103:22] anxiety they have memory loss it it's [103:25] really high the amount of women [103:27] experiencing these [103:29] symptoms and what's really interesting [103:33] is we know yes HRT so hormone [103:35] replacement therapy therapy or MHT um uh [103:40] can help reduce many of these symptoms [103:44] but we also know that diet can help as [103:46] well and I think actually see one of the [103:48] most interesting things from our [103:49] research looking at menopause and [103:52] symptoms is that typically when we think [103:54] of menopausal symptoms we think about [103:55] hot flushes mhm and if I was to ask you [103:59] actually I wished I'd have asked you [104:00] before I said that but if I was to ask [104:01] you to if you were to think of a [104:02] menopause symptom what would come to [104:04] your mind first I would say hot flushes [104:07] because that seems to be um the only [104:10] time that people talk about hot flushes [104:11] is when they're talking about menopause [104:13] in my world and then I'd say brain fog [104:15] yep and what's really interesting is hot [104:19] flushers are the one of the least common [104:20] symptoms about 40% of women in our [104:23] research have hot flushes 85% have uh [104:26] brain fog 85% have all of the other [104:29] brain related um uh [104:33] symptoms and yet typically we always [104:35] think about hot flushes and this is [104:37] because there just hasn't been loads of [104:38] research on menopause and so I think [104:40] what's really exciting is there is now a [104:42] lot more research on menopause so I [104:44] think the future is really exciting but [104:46] I think what comes with this is yet more [104:49] neutrols MH and that's because I think [104:53] there's this whole area of what we call [104:55] menow washing I don't have you heard of [104:58] menow i't stick menow for menopause in [105:01] front of any product you can charge 10 [105:03] times as much I could call this a [105:05] menopause tea it's actually Yorkshire [105:07] Tea and it's a very good cup of tea I [105:10] could call this meno tea and charge 10 [105:13] times as much for that tea bag without [105:15] any evidence because women are desperate [105:17] 45% of women say their symptoms are so [105:20] burdensome they'll try anything 10% [105:23] leaving the workforce because of their [105:25] symptoms and so we have to be really [105:28] careful that we are only selling [105:31] evidence-based supplements for which [105:33] there isn't much evidence at the [105:35] moment and I think that the evidence [105:39] that an overall healthier dietary [105:40] pattern can reduce symptoms is the best [105:43] way forward for now alongside for those [105:46] who choose to hormone replacement [105:47] therapy a recent survey showed that 30% [105:51] of menopause women are trying herbal REM [105:52] remedies 30% are trying vitamins and 51% [105:55] are trying any kind of dietary therapy [105:57] as an alternative to HRT that was in I [106:00] news which kind of supports what you're [106:02] saying that there's lots of people [106:03] searching for because I think from the [106:06] experiences that I've had with people [106:07] talking to me about menopause it seems [106:10] to be an incredibly confusing period of [106:12] life where you can't make sense of [106:14] what's happening and all the old rules [106:16] of just you know hit the gym and eat a [106:18] bit healthier seem to go out the window [106:20] because there's something deeper at play [106:22] in your body so it's not that you're not [106:23] eating right or it's not that you're not [106:25] sleeping right it's a deeper hormonal [106:28] fluctuation that you've actually never [106:29] experienced before so of course you're [106:31] going to be really confused and um quite [106:34] easily uh gas lit as well I imagine [106:37] because you know I've had someone say to [106:39] me that they felt like they were going [106:41] crazy and then people started thinking [106:42] they were just like kind of going crazy [106:44] a little bit um yeah I think you know [106:48] fortunately I think it's changing yeah [106:50] but historically we didn't talk about it [106:53] you know I vaguely remember my mom [106:54] saying I'm really hot I'm having hot [106:56] flush but we didn't talk about menopause [106:59] we didn't talk about periods we just [107:01] didn't talk about it in that you know [107:03] when I was growing up and unfortunately [107:06] my mother's no longer alive so I don't [107:08] really know what she did go through and [107:12] I want to talk about it people are [107:14] talking about it we have people like [107:15] deina MCO who are amazing because [107:17] they're getting women talking about it [107:18] so we're no longer ashamed so I think [107:21] the tide is really turning [107:23] but menopause is this perfect storm [107:26] because you have these burdensome [107:28] symptoms and then you have alongside it [107:30] which I don't think we talk about enough [107:32] is these health effects that I talked [107:33] about so women going for the menopause [107:36] aren't sleeping I mean my sleep is all [107:38] over the place honestly when I get a [107:40] good night's sleep Stephen I feel like [107:42] superwoman it it I'm almost it reminds [107:44] me the state I'm in at the moment is [107:47] like how I was when I had kids where you [107:50] know I'm getting four or five hours [107:51] sleep then I wake up if I'm lucky I [107:53] might get back to sleep so you've got [107:55] women they're not getting enough sleep [107:58] you've got women who often are feeling a [108:00] bit depressed or anxious or you know [108:03] losing their confidence because of their [108:05] brain fog because of their memory loss [108:07] because of you know their [108:09] anxiety you've got the hormones changing [108:12] your body composition suddenly you're [108:14] eating and doing everything the [108:16] same but all the fats being directed to [108:19] your tummy your hunger signals are [108:22] mocked up your um desire to eat [108:25] different food changes and we see this [108:27] again in our own research that [108:28] postmenopause women tend to eat a lot [108:29] more sugary Foods than Prem menopause so [108:32] you've got this perfect storm of things [108:33] going on and then in amongst that do you [108:36] really want to do some physical activity [108:38] are you really motivated to start eating [108:41] healthier and you know when you're [108:43] exhausted and it goes back again to that [108:45] importance of sleep and that interaction [108:47] of sleep with our food choices and how [108:49] we respond to food there's so many [108:51] things to think and I think it's really [108:54] tough in that Perry and postmenopausal [108:55] phase when your body's changing when [108:57] you're tired when you're feeling a bit [108:59] rubbish to also take control of your [109:01] diet but it's the most important time [109:04] because it's when your cholesterol [109:06] increases it's when your blood pressure [109:08] increases it's when all of this fat [109:10] tissue around your belly is releasing [109:12] harmful inflammatory chemicals Etc so [109:15] it's when unfortunately we really do [109:17] need to take stock of our physical [109:19] activity of what we're eating and our [109:21] stress levels m but it's probably one of [109:23] the most challenging times to do it as [109:26] well you must be incredibly stressed [109:28] through that period but also just [109:29] thinking about your relationships if you [109:31] if you're in a relationship in a [109:32] heterosexual marriage with a with a [109:35] husband who isn't going through that at [109:37] that period of their life and you said [109:39] there was a libido [109:41] um issue that's symptomatic of menopause [109:44] as well to navigate all of that and for [109:48] the people around you to understand [109:50] what's going on in your head must be [109:53] incredibly stressful incredibly [109:55] stressful I'm I [109:58] like I'm very um I feel very I don't [110:02] know what the right words are here but I [110:03] feel very um [110:07] sympathetic because I can't imagine I [110:09] don't think there's a point in the man's [110:11] life where we go through such a profound [110:13] change in our um hormones in such a [110:16] confusing way all of a all of a sudden [110:19] so it's like but I think Stephen if we [110:22] raise awareness so that men are aware [110:25] and they can support their partners and [110:29] you know liido for you know as an [110:31] example we see in our own research [110:33] whilst it might not be the most common [110:35] women rate it as the most burdensome [110:37] really so we monitor not just the [110:40] prevalence so how common the symptoms [110:41] are we also ask people how much impacts [110:44] their quality of life and the per and [110:45] postmenopausal women rate that as their [110:48] what their symptom that has the most [110:50] burden on their life [110:53] because if I'm not slept and I'm not [110:55] feeling sexy I'm not going to I'm [110:59] independent of whether there's like a [111:01] chemical impact on my hormone levels [111:02] that causes my lowering of libido I'm [111:04] not trying to have sex you want to go to [111:06] sleep I want to go to sleep yeah exactly [111:09] so even if you know and especially I [111:11] don't feel good I don't feel sexy I'm [111:14] probably my mood might be altered and [111:16] yeah you're tummy suddenly grow yeah [111:18] it's not going to be so what do what [111:21] advice do you give to those the women [111:22] been going through that you said that [111:24] you're on hormone replacement therapy [111:26] yourself previously um and that's had a [111:28] I guess a positive impact on your [111:30] menopause Journey yes I still sleep [111:33] really badly yeah um I don't think HRT [111:36] is the answer for everyone and some [111:39] people can't take it if they're [111:40] contraindicated with certain risk [111:42] related to cancer um and some people [111:45] choose not to take it and it certainly [111:46] doesn't solve everything uh I do think [111:49] the evidence is very compelling for [111:51] reduction in many Sy sys I think the [111:53] evidence is [111:54] compelling um or increasing and building [111:58] for the beneficial effects it also has [111:59] on some of these health effects that [112:03] happen during menopause like blood [112:05] pressure cholesterol uh tummy fat so [112:08] I've chosen to take it for both health [112:11] and for symptoms but there's reasonable [112:15] evidence now showing that diet can help [112:18] reduce symptoms there isn't a one siiz [112:22] fix it's all there isn't a silver bullet [112:24] but an overall healthier dietary pattern [112:27] I believe can reduce menopause symptoms [112:31] this comes from other published research [112:32] as well as our own research that we've [112:34] done at zoi where we've looked in a [112:37] subgroup of individuals over 12 to 18 [112:39] week period and looked at those who [112:42] transition to a healthier diet they're [112:44] actually following The Zo program but [112:45] the underlying principles are the same [112:47] for all individuals to follow a healthy [112:49] diet so increase plant diversity [112:51] increase fiber a very kind of [112:53] Mediterranean style diet and what we see [112:56] in those people who are improving their [112:58] diet they have a 35% reduction in [113:00] symptoms now that's huge I do have to [113:03] caveat that to say though that there [113:05] wasn't a control arm so it's not a [113:08] clinical an rcts we call it it's a a a [113:13] study where we followed people at one [113:14] point in time and collected data another [113:16] point in time what we now need to do is [113:19] repeat this with a control arm to see if [113:21] we see the same size effect but there [113:23] are other studies that have in a [113:25] randomized control trial asked people to [113:27] follow the Mediterranean diet or control [113:29] diet and they see a similar magnitude of [113:31] around 30% reduction in symptoms which [113:34] is huge and promising I think but I [113:37] think where we have to be really careful [113:39] with menopause because we are desperate [113:42] because we're struggling I think we're [113:44] really susceptible to marketing to this [113:46] menow washing and I think there are so [113:48] many supplements that are being sold as [113:50] the Silver Bullet you know and I see it [113:53] on social media and I think firstly okay [113:55] if it works for you great if you can [113:58] afford it great but what worries me is [114:01] people who are spending a lot of money [114:04] that they could be using for a healthy [114:07] dietary pattern or you know a gym [114:10] membership or whatever on a supplement [114:12] that there is no evidence of support and [114:15] the evidence is very very weak except [114:17] for a supplement called soy eyes of [114:19] flavones there is very weak evidence [114:21] that any other supplements will work [114:22] consistently they might work for some [114:24] people but consistently soy [114:27] isoflavones yeah so soy isoflavones are [114:31] a particular chemical that are found in [114:33] some foods it's a chemical that has a [114:36] structure very similar to estrogen so [114:38] actually binds to the estrogen receptors [114:41] in the body which is why it has a [114:44] beneficial effects on many symptoms now [114:46] soy of Flavin are consumed in quite [114:48] small amounts in the UK and the us we [114:50] consume probably about one milligram a [114:52] day on average in the Far East like [114:55] China they consume about 70 milligrams a [114:57] day as part of the natural diet so in [114:59] those kind of countries they actually [115:00] have a really low prevalence of [115:02] menopause symptoms compared to us they [115:04] still have menopause symptoms but it's a [115:05] bit lower than [115:07] us what we know is that if you [115:10] supplement people with soy ofl vones for [115:13] the vast majority of people but not [115:15] everyone it will reduce symptoms a [115:18] little bit not totally but it can reduce [115:20] symptoms and is your underlying how [115:22] Health a predictive factor of the amount [115:25] of symptoms you'll experience if I was [115:27] if I'm obese and then I go into per [115:30] menopause are my symptoms going to be [115:32] more [115:33] significant so that's a good question [115:35] we've looked at how living with obesity [115:38] can impact your symptoms and we do see [115:40] that if you're living with obesity you [115:42] have a higher prevalent uh number of [115:44] symptoms okay we see that if you have an [115:47] unhealthy diet to start with you have a [115:49] higher number of symptoms we see that if [115:52] you have low physical activity you smoke [115:55] Etc yes it's associated with higher [115:57] symptoms this is all Association data [115:59] though it doesn't show causality and [116:01] it's really important to say that for [116:03] quite a while I ignored my gut I ignored [116:06] the role it plays when it comes to my [116:07] overall health and it wasn't until the [116:09] team from Zoe came onto my podcast that [116:11] I realized I couldn't ignore it anymore [116:14] I was so impressed by Professor Tim [116:15] Spectre and Professor Sarah Berry that I [116:18] ended up investing in Zoe and they're [116:20] now a sponsor of this podcast they help [116:22] me to view my gut as the gateway to [116:24] Better Health that when in balance my [116:26] microbiome could strengthen my immunity [116:28] elevate my mood and fight off disease [116:30] which I now know to be true I trust zoee [116:33] because they have one of the largest [116:35] microbiome databases in the world and [116:37] when you sign up you'll get one of the [116:38] most scientifically Advanced atome test [116:40] kits on the planet and a personalized [116:43] nutrition program to help you make [116:44] smarter food choices and because you're [116:47] one of my listeners use code Steven 10 [116:49] for 10% off your membership head to [116:51] zoe.com [116:52] now we take our time when it comes to [116:55] hiring at flight story because I [116:56] fundamentally believe the success of a [116:58] business is directly linked to how good [117:00] you are at hiring and better hiring [117:02] starts with smarter insights LinkedIn [117:04] who's a sponsor of this podcast has some [117:05] of the strongest hiring data available [117:07] to help you identify the best candidates [117:09] for your business their platform will [117:11] even pair you with those who match what [117:13] you're looking for which might lie [117:15] outside of the job description and More [117:17] in their unique skills and interests [117:20] because these days hiring isn't just [117:22] about finding the most qualified person [117:24] but also finding the one whose [117:25] experience abilities and interests align [117:27] with your company's Mission and it goes [117:29] beyond candidates who are applying for [117:31] jobs too in any given week 171 million [117:35] members who aren't actively seeking jobs [117:37] are open to New Opportunities find your [117:39] next great hire on LinkedIn and start [117:41] today by posting your job for free just [117:43] by visiting linkedin.com [117:48] doac what is the most important thing we [117:50] should have talked about that we haven't [117:51] talked about [117:53] Professor that's my formal way to trust [117:58] me I think we've covered an awful [118:03] lot and I think the thing that I would [118:07] emphasize when people are thinking about [118:09] their health thinking about their diet [118:11] is firstly find what works for you MH [118:14] find something you [118:16] enjoy but I think I would say be really [118:19] really careful of the misinformation [118:20] that's out there really [118:24] careful and I would say also if you're [118:27] going to make a change make sure it has [118:28] a big enough size impact to Warrant the [118:32] change you're making because there's a [118:34] lot of advocates for this health [118:37] optimization you know make this change [118:40] and it will have this impact well if [118:41] you're making a change that disrupts [118:44] your life significantly but only has a [118:46] 1% impact on whatever Health outcome [118:50] you're interest in whether it's your [118:51] cholesterol your own all energy or [118:53] whatever is it really worth disrupting [118:56] your life that much for that small [118:59] change and I think that's really [119:01] important I hear so many times when I'm [119:03] talking to other moms at schoolgate or [119:05] that sort of thing oh my gosh I read [119:07] this and I'm going to do this and you [119:09] know it's going to be really hard but [119:10] they've said it will help with this and [119:13] it's like [119:14] oh you're taking way pleasure and [119:17] actually what is the [119:18] gain and if the world is to move forward [119:21] in a way that is positive in your [119:25] estimation how does the world change and [119:28] improve as it relates to all the [119:29] subjects we've talked about today what [119:31] is that change you wish to see in the [119:33] world in which you [119:37] operate I would love to see a world [119:39] where scientists food industry and [119:43] policy makers work together I'd love to [119:46] see a world [119:49] where [119:51] we encourage evidence-based science but [119:54] scientists aren't scared of working with [119:57] food industry for example a lot of [120:00] people think the food industry is bad [120:01] like it's this sort of evil guy who sat [120:03] in this boardroom who's just counting [120:05] money and just pushing whatever these [120:08] little innocent children will put in [120:10] their mouths and to make them addicted [120:11] and give them neurod Divergence and all [120:13] kinds of other issues potentially a lot [120:15] of people feel that a lot of this the [120:18] food industry has become this sort of [120:19] singular entity people think about in [120:22] the sort of conspiracy theory internet [120:23] and you kind of imagine it is like a guy [120:25] in a boardroom in a suit who's just like [120:27] cackling and laughing and and stuff like [120:29] that [120:30] um I think [120:33] that I can't comment on their [120:35] motivations for profit um I don't think [120:38] I'm informed enough to comment on that [120:40] but I do believe that the food industry [120:42] needs to work with Academia in order to [120:46] solve the problem of the kind of foods [120:49] that are out there we need impact from [120:50] government though as well we need impact [120:52] from policy makers we need to go back to [120:54] Grassroots we need to be educating our [120:56] children how to cook we need to be [120:58] giving healthy School meals we need to [121:00] be educating them in schools what is a [121:02] healthy meal what isn't a healthy meal [121:04] what is a healthy food but I think that [121:07] something that's so important is this [121:09] current state of fear I think I think [121:12] we're in a perilous State at the moment [121:15] of there are [121:18] some people making a lot of noise on in [121:22] the media about scientists working with [121:24] industry how any research funded by [121:27] industry is there bias it's corrupt [121:30] can't be trusted that's certainly not my [121:33] experience it's not what I have ever [121:35] seen from any other colleagues taking [121:37] money from food industry in order to do [121:38] studies we as nutrition scientists need [121:41] to do studies we need to run clinical [121:42] trials in order to look at how we can [121:45] improve the a few to make it healthier [121:48] the amount of funding we get from [121:50] independent government [121:52] bodies it's tiny to get funding the [121:55] amount of time we have to spend this [121:58] academics writing grants to be rejected [122:00] and rejected because the government [122:02] invests so little in nutrition [122:04] research we need to be able to get [122:07] funding to be able to run studies to [122:09] answer important questions the money and [122:12] the experience I've had from those [122:14] around me when we receive funding from [122:18] research from when we receive funding [122:20] from industry [122:22] there is very limited involvement that [122:25] they are allowed to have with what we do [122:27] and the university ensure that we [122:30] conduct the research we do the analysis [122:32] we publish the paper the industry [122:35] funders cannot get involved in that [122:37] process so I still see it as [122:40] independent now there is discussion [122:42] about are they setting the agenda of [122:44] that research you know there's something [122:46] we could talk about for days and days [122:48] but I think this narrative that's out [122:50] there that just because of studies being [122:52] funded by the food industry is biased is [122:54] wrong and I think it's unhelpful and [122:57] it's putting these exposes that certain [123:00] media p personalities are putting [123:03] forward that if an academic has taken [123:05] money from a food industry that [123:08] therefore they they cannot be advising [123:10] us on food they cannot be trusted for [123:12] their research I think that that's a [123:15] real problem for us as nutrition [123:17] scientists because it's [123:18] creating a time of fear MH [123:22] yeah I mean of course so yeah when you [123:24] explain it through how these how these [123:26] studies get funded then it makes a ton [123:28] of sense and actually part of what I was [123:29] thinking is the government should be [123:31] doing a little bit more to fund these [123:33] kinds of studies because I can't I don't [123:34] really believe that you're going to get [123:36] the food industry to work [123:38] together because again thinking about [123:41] incentives if there's one serial company [123:42] here and the other here and say there's [123:44] 10 of them um how can you get all of [123:47] them to agree to take yeah the two that [123:49] don't win and then they keep their jobs [123:51] companies are successful they get pats [123:53] on the back so when we think about [123:55] health interventions that the government [123:56] have made over the years that been super [123:58] effective they've come from like policy [124:02] smoking is a good example that I always [124:04] think about like the change in smoking [124:06] in our society because they made they [124:08] banned smoking indoors and put things on [124:10] the packaging and just change the sort [124:12] of social narrative and all smoking [124:14] companies tobacco companies had to sort [124:15] of comply at once so and that's why I [124:17] think all three have to work together [124:19] government need to take big [124:22] responsibility M now yeah and but I [124:26] think that there has to be an acceptance [124:29] that academics scientists can work with [124:33] food industry and it doesn't mean that [124:35] you're corrupt or corrup or are results [124:37] of bias in any [124:40] way we have a closing tradition on this [124:42] podcast where the last guest leaves a [124:43] question for the next guest not knowing [124:44] who they're leaving it for and the [124:46] question that's been left for you is [124:48] what is something that you believe that [124:50] smart people you care about disagree [124:53] with do you know what I believe I [124:56] believe that life can be simple that [124:59] actually all that matters is that you [125:03] have good [125:04] relationships that you're finding joy in [125:07] life and that we shouldn't over [125:12] complicate things and if on my [125:15] gravestone I have written Sarah was a [125:18] nice [125:19] person I would be very happy with that [125:22] but a lot of the clever people are [125:24] interactive I [125:26] think wouldn't agree that that's [125:30] necessarily a good achievement in life [125:33] but I see that as a great [125:37] achievement what do you think they might [125:39] want written on their gravestone [125:42] instead you're smacking nervously I am [125:47] is it that too obsessed with like impact [125:49] and ego and those kinds of things is [125:50] that what you're saying [125:52] I don't know because the people I care [125:53] about I don't think are [125:55] egotistical I think we [125:58] live in a society [126:01] certainly in a society where we're [126:03] mixing with successful people where [126:06] there is a lot of ambition where there [126:08] is a lot [126:09] of um emphasis put on your [126:13] achievements where there's a lot of [126:15] striving for the next goal striving for [126:18] the next [126:20] achievement and and maybe it's having [126:24] had four years where I took a career [126:27] break where I was care of my mom and [126:31] together with the rest of my family we [126:33] looked after my mom we kept her at home [126:35] through a degenerative neurological [126:37] condition and seeing [126:39] someone change seeing someone lose the [126:41] power to talk lose the power to eat lose [126:44] the power to interact lose the power to [126:47] do everything that we take for granted I [126:49] think has enabled me [126:53] to not sweat the small stuff has enabled [126:56] me to find joy in most things pleasure [127:00] in most things and not strive [127:04] for things that maybe in the past I [127:07] would [127:08] have perspective I think it's given me a [127:12] perspective now don't get me wrong you [127:14] know I you know I was nervous before [127:16] coming on here so I sweated about that [127:18] and you know I'm not saying that I'm [127:20] always like like horizontally laid back [127:23] by any [127:24] means but I think it's given me a [127:27] perspective on what matters to me yeah [127:30] and what matters to me and I think the [127:33] greatest achievement in my whole life [127:36] has been actually not becoming Professor [127:39] which I'm incredibly proud of I'm from a [127:41] workingclass family you know I was the [127:43] first person in our family to ever go to [127:45] university my mom and dad didn't have [127:47] the privilege of staying at school [127:48] Beyond [127:49] 14 and I mean it saddens that they [127:52] haven't seen this success saddens me [127:54] very much and whilst The Pride I felt [127:57] yesterday at the ceremony was phenomenal [128:01] actually what I'm most proud of is the [128:03] four years that I cared for my [128:06] mom and to me that's what [128:10] matters and so that's why when I'm with [128:13] lots of smart people and I think they're [128:15] doing amazing things I don't have the [128:18] same perspective [128:20] sometimes I've probably don't care as [128:22] much as long as I'm having fun and do [128:24] you know what and I think I said this at [128:25] the beginning I'm so privileged I get to [128:27] do my hobby every day I love what I do [128:31] I'm not doing this necessarily because [128:34] I'm such a a selfless person that I want [128:36] to improve everyone's Health yes if [128:38] that's a byproduct great but I get up [128:40] and I love what I do I'm so [128:44] excited by the science that we do and [128:49] what drives me to do it is having been [128:51] through that situation of realizing how [128:53] delicate life is so just use the moment [128:56] enjoy what you're doing at that point in [128:59] time thank you so much um Professor [129:03] congratulations on the professor didn't [129:04] realize it was uh you other ceremony [129:06] yesterday that's an incredible [129:08] achievement I know that we're not we're [129:09] not prioritizing the the achievements as [129:12] much anymore but um incredible yeah it's [129:16] it's incredible thing and it's a it's a [129:17] credit to the work that you've done and [129:19] how you've done it over the last 25 [129:20] years and the broader impact I think [129:22] you've had on so many millions of [129:23] people's lives now through now the [129:25] content you produce but also all of the [129:26] research that you've done firsthand so [129:28] thank you so much for doing the work [129:29] that you do thank you for uh [129:30] Illuminating so many of these subjects [129:33] to me today I actually said a message to [129:34] my team before saying that um I've had [129:37] lots of conversations about nutrition [129:38] and stuff but the the primary research [129:41] you've done and the research you're [129:42] continuing to do is so much of it it's [129:45] completely new to me and that's quite [129:47] hard when when I sit here doing this [129:49] every day so it's been a an absolute Joy [129:52] speaking to you and also not just from [129:53] the information standpoint but from the [129:55] broader philosophical idea of how one [129:58] should approach their life and how one [129:59] can approach their life has been [130:01] incredibly inspiring so thank you thank [130:03] you it's been a real pleasure to talk [130:05] about so many things I'm passionate [130:07] about we shall do it again sometime [130:09] thank [130:13] you do you know that 80% of New Year's [130:15] resolutions fail by February it's [130:17] because we focus too much on the end [130:19] goal and we forget the small daily [130:21] actions that actually move us forward [130:23] those actions that are easy to do are [130:25] also easy not to do in life it's easy to [130:27] save a dollar so it's also easy not to [130:29] making one small Improvement each day [130:31] one tiny step in the right direction has [130:33] a big difference over time and that is [130:35] the 1% mindset which is why we created [130:38] the 1% diary a 90day journal designed to [130:41] help you stay consistent and focus on [130:43] the small wins and make real progress [130:45] over time it also gives you access to [130:47] the 1% Community a space where you can [130:49] stay accountable motivated inspired [130:52] along with many others on the same [130:53] Journey we launched the 1% diary in [130:55] November and it sold out so now we're [130:57] doing a second drop head Toth diary.com [131:00] to grab yours before it sells out again [131:03] I'll put the link below [131:05] [Music] [131:21] a [131:24] [Music]