## Background
Published on February 27, 2025, by The Diary Of A CEO channel on YouTube, this video features world-renowned human psychology expert and multiple New York Times bestselling author Robert Greene. The episode covers the silent tactics of influence, how individuals are manipulated without knowing it, and strategies to reclaim personal control.
## TL;DR
In this extensive discussion, Robert Greene explores the profound necessity of finding one's life task and purpose, particularly to combat the modern crises of loneliness and powerlessness. He breaks down the deep-seated mechanics of human nature, detailing how traits like universal narcissism and pervasive envy can be constructively channeled into skill acquisition and self-control. Greene offers sharp critiques of modern digital saturation, such as pornography, while delivering strategic power laws for workplace dynamics, bold negotiation, and achieving mastery. Ultimately, he reflects on his own physical limitations following a stroke, emphasizing resilience and an expansive attitude toward life's challenges.
## Atmosphere & style
The conversation carries an intense, deeply reflective, and intellectually grounded atmosphere, pairing Steven Bartlett's exploratory prompting with Greene's professorial yet raw wisdom. It feels like an intimate masterclass in human psychology, shifting from analytical breakdowns of workplace warfare to vulnerably quiet moments about aging and mortality. The tone balances cold, pragmatic realism regarding human flaws with a genuinely empathetic undercurrent that encourages viewers to expand their consciousness and reclaim physical agency.
## Key takeaways
- [02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=123s) Finding your Life's Task is the single most important decision in life, requiring deep inward reflection and unearthing interests from early childhood.
- [14:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=859s) The only effective way to learn is through execution and real-world failure rather than endless passive planning.
- [20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1200s) Acquiring deep, adaptable skills early in your career is far more valuable long-term than taking high-paying corporate roles with no practical responsibility.
- [35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2100s) Mastery requires intense discipline and the ability to say no to good opportunities in order to stay laser-focused on a single passion.
- [43:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2604s) Intelligence exists in multiple forms—such as bodily or interpersonal intelligence—which are just as valid as standard logical capability.
- [46:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2814s) Envy is a primary motivator of human behavior that can be neutralized by admitting it and channeled productively through emulation and shared joy.
- [01:09:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4177s) Digital isolation, instant online dopamine hits, and pornography desensitize the brain, strip sex of romance, and erode real-world social skills.
- [01:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3600s) Solitude is a deliberate, productive path to self-discovery, whereas loneliness is a harmful state of disconnection that breeds helplessness.
- [01:24:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5040s) Everyone possesses narcissistic traits; healthy narcissism directs self-absorbed drive into meaningful public creations, while deep narcissism is destructive.
- [01:28:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5316s) Strategic self-control—such as speaking less than necessary and controlling emotional reactions—is essential for retaining authority and navigating workplace politics.
- [01:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6000s) True strength and masculinity stem from intense emotional self-control and the ability to take personal responsibility for mistakes.
- [02:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7200s) Mass crowd energy and rigid ideological purity can hypnotize populations, leading to dangerous collective stupidity and loss of individual thought.
- [02:09:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7756s) Adopting 'formlessness' prevents identity traps, allowing continuous adaptation instead of becoming fixed in rigid ideologies.
- [02:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8700s) Power and confidence are primarily communicated through surface optics, direct body language, and nonverbal cues rather than objective metrics.
- [02:28:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8900s) Entering actions with absolute boldness creates authority and commands respect, whereas timidity ruins potential success.
## Detailed walkthrough
Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of the transcript section.
---
[00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=0s) Intro and the Nature of Narcissism, Envy, and Modern Disconnection
The conversation opens with a stark observation about human nature: everyone possesses self-absorbed and narcissistic tendencies, yet almost no one is willing to admit it. People routinely point fingers at prominent figures like Donald Trump or Elon Musk while ignoring their own manipulative side. Robert Greene emphasizes that there are no saints in this world, but human flaws can be used productively. The key lies in understanding the critical difference between deeply problematic "deep narcissists" and "healthy narcissists"—a distinction that can save a person years of misery. Furthermore, envy is deeply ingrained in human nature, to the point where the drive to feel superior to others secretly motivates 90% of human behavior. Denying this impulse acts like a nuclear bomb in one's life, seizing a person by the throat and causing deep unhappiness. Greene points out that mastering life requires confronting uncomfortable truths: we all judge based on appearances, everyone has a dark side, and we are all actors performing on a stage.
Turning to modern societal issues, the discussion highlights that people today are lonelier than ever. The health impact of chronic loneliness is equivalent to smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Greene empathizes deeply with those who feel lost or isolated, recalling his own youth when he was losing at the game of life, suffering from severe depression, and even feeling suicidal before finding a way out.
Interspersed with the dialogue, host Steven Bartlett addresses the audience with a direct channel note, pointing out that 53% of regular listeners have not yet subscribed. He asks for a simple, free favor: hit the subscribe button to support the team. In return, Bartlett commits to listening to viewer feedback, securing requested guests, and continuously improving the quality of the show every week.
[02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=123s) The Most Important Decision of Your Life: Finding Your Life's Task
Bartlett kicks off the main interview by asking Greene what his millions of readers and followers are struggling with the most, based on the thousands of direct messages and emails he receives. Greene reveals that the single most common issue—especially among young people in their 20s—is feeling completely lost and lacking a sense of direction. They do not know what career path to take or how to discover what Greene terms in his book *Mastery* their "Life's Task." Greene asserts that identifying your Life's Task is the single most important decision of your life. It means discovering what you were destined for, why you were born, and what unique qualities you possess. A person's sense of fulfillment and happiness all stem directly from this single realization.
Greene notes that young people today are navigating an exceptionally confusing landscape—far more confusing than what he faced in his own youth. A primary culprit is the pervasive influence of social media and modern technology. Discovering who you are requires deep inward reflection, self-awareness, and self-knowledge. However, when a person's attention is constantly fixated outward on what others are doing, saying, or deeming "cool," they become an absolute stranger to themselves. As a result, when Greene presents the concept of a Life's Task, many young people reply that they have no idea what theirs could possibly be.
* "It is the most important decision in your life, figuring out what you were destined for, why you were born, what you were created for, what makes you unique."
* "To know who you are, to know what you were meant to do in life... requires a lot of reflection on yourself, self-awareness, self-knowledge. You have to go inward."
* Around 30% to 40% of the emails Greene receives from young people express this deep confusion over career and purpose.
* Lack of meaning and direction creates a disturbing sense of torment and emptiness in daily life.
[04:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=281s) Is There a Strategy for Finding Your Purpose?
Addressing whether there is a actionable strategy to uncover one's purpose, Greene cautions against linear, quick-fix thinking. Life is complex, so there are no simple "life hacks" to instantly locate your purpose. However, there are proven clues and paths that have guided hundreds of thousands of historical masters and successful individuals. The process begins with cultivating a sense of urgency. A person must hit a point where they realize, "If I keep going like this for another five years, I'm going to be in serious trouble."
Once that urgency exists, you must resist cultural pressure, stop fixating on other people's opinions, and look inward to identify the topics or activities that trigger an irresistible, visceral spark inside you. Using an archaeological metaphor, Greene explains that finding your purpose requires digging into your past—all the way back to early childhood—to excavate the "bones, relics, and artifacts" of things that deeply excited or repelled you before external influences took over. Greene shares that for him, writing was always a core calling, alongside a deep, visceral fascination with ancient history and early human origins in Africa.
```
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| THE ARCHAEOLOGY OF PURPOSE |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
| 1. CULTIVATE URGENCY --> Recognize that continuing on the current path leads |
| to long-term misery; act before time runs out. |
| 2. BLOCK OUTWARD NOISE --> Stop comparing yourself to social media trends and |
| external expectations. |
| 3. EXCAVATE THE PAST --> Dig back into early childhood interests (ages 2-5) to |
| uncover natural, visceral curiosities. |
| 4. TEST & ADVENTURE --> Treat exploration as an exciting journey rather than |
| a tedious chore; learn through active trial. |
+-----------------------------------------------------------------------------------+
```
Greene highlights that genuine learning cannot happen unless a person is excited. Exploring your purpose should not feel like a dreary chore involving tedious journaling, but rather a fun, adventurous process of trial and error. Reflecting on his own 20s, Greene shares that despite being lost, he had an amazing time traveling, trying different occupations, and exploring options. He encourages young people to maintain a sense of direction while actively enjoying the adventure of testing different paths.
* Early childhood interests (ages 2 to 5) hold vital clues to a person's intrinsic inclinations before societal conditioning sets in.
* Greene's personal obsession: Reading articles about human origins 100,000 years ago in Africa instantly sparks his mind.
* Time accelerates rapidly throughout your 20s; waiting until age 30 to begin searching makes the process significantly harder.
[09:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=581s) Is It Harder to Find Your Purpose When You're Older?
Greene acknowledges that searching for your Life's Task becomes harder as you age because the human mind grows rigid and people convince themselves they already know all the answers. Hitting a crossroads at age 40 carries intense pain and regret over wasted years. Furthermore, pivoting requires "shedding" an established identity—a network, a reputation as a lawyer or doctor, a comfortable income, or even a city. Many individuals choose the certain misery of an unfulfilling job over the scary uncertainty of shedding their current life.
However, older individuals hold a major advantage over 20-somethings: accumulated skills, life experience, and resilience. Younger people often lack real experience and have never truly suffered, whereas older adults have been hardened by life's difficulties. The human brain contains billions of potential neural connections—making it the most complex instrument in the known universe—and when it lacks a meaningful focus as a person ages, depression and sadness naturally set in. People frequently misattribute this internal sadness to external factors like politics, world events, or other people, rather than recognizing that it stems from failing to utilize their potential.
When consulting people in their 30s stuck in dead-end jobs (such as fast-food workers or baristas) who have families to support, Greene advises a pragmatic approach. You cannot simply drop responsibilities to write poetry or become a rock star. Instead, you must carve out two hours every night after work to research new fields, take night classes, and set a realistic five-year goal. Taking small, concrete steps toward a target immediately lifts depression, providing renewed hope and energy.
* The human brain has more potential connections than anything else in the universe; keeping it idle leads directly to depression.
* Practical transition strategy: Keep your day job to support dependents while dedicating ~2 hours every evening to acquiring new skills over a 5-year timeline.
[14:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=859s) The Only Way to Learn Anything!
Bartlett notes that many people spend 6, 12, or even 24 months constantly "thinking" about an idea—such as starting a podcast—without ever taking action. Greene points out that this directly violates a fundamental principle of mastery: learning by doing. Dating back to medieval craft apprenticeships, the brain only truly masters a discipline by physically engaging with it and progressing from apprentice to journeyman to master.
Greene's advice to anyone paralyzed by planning is to throw themselves into execution immediately. Launching a project and failing within three months teaches a person far more practical knowledge than two years of passive planning or spending massive amounts of money on an MBA. Real feedback obtained through failure is the ultimate teacher.
[15:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=938s) Why Do We Procrastinate?
Procrastination and endless planning stem fundamentally from a fear of failure, which closely links to what Sigmund Freud called the "fear of success." Success brings heavy burdens: increased responsibility, public expectations, and a reputation that can be damaged by future failures. By remaining inactive and blaming external circumstances—such as parents, money, or the education system—people shield themselves from accountability.
Bartlett references the book *The Courage to Be Disliked*, highlighting the concept of living in the "realm of possibility." In this mental space, a person announces grandiose plans to the world (e.g., telling friends they plan to become an actor) and receives social validation without facing real-world testing. Living in this realm acts like a narcotic: it provides unearned praise while protecting the individual from the uncomfortable feedback of reality.
* Sigmund Freud identified the underlying psychological fear of success and the heavy burden of responsibility that accompanies it.
* The "realm of possibility" acts as a comforting narcotic where individuals collect praise for intent without running the risk of actual failure.
[16:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1019s) We Need to Develop Toughness and Set Limits
Greene explains that achieving greatness requires working within defined boundaries and pushing against resistance. Living in an endless world of unconstrained potential prevents an individual from developing real mental strength. Just as water resistance builds muscle while swimming, confronting limits, friction, and resistance is what expands the brain and builds true capability. Learning an instrument like the piano requires starting within rigid constraints before gradually expanding your range.
Because the world can be cruel, cold, and mean-spirited, individuals must develop a thick skin through practical exposure and inevitable failure. Citing his wife's work in the film industry, Greene notes that acting involves roughly 99% rejection based on arbitrary factors like appearance. Successful actors endure by learning from rejections without taking them personally, using each setback to build psychological toughness.
* Friction and limits act as the mental equivalent of water resistance during swimming, building cognitive muscle and life skills.
* Success in tough fields requires developing thick skin to treat rejections as informative feedback rather than personal attacks.
[20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1200s) Skills Are the Gold of the 21st Century
The conversation shifts to advice for young people striving to make their mark. Robert Greene asserts unequivocally that young people should not aim for money or reputation, and even network or fame are secondary. Instead, the ultimate currency of the modern era is **skills**—true, deep skills in fields like technology, media, or the arts. Greene emphasizes that if someone can develop two or three real skills by their 20s while still enjoying life, the entire world will open up to them by the time they hit 30. They will be able to synthesize those distinct disciplines into a unique venture that nobody else could have conceived.
Greene warns against being seduced by money early on, calling it a path to doom. To illustrate his point, he presents a clear scenario: if a young person in New York is offered a $150,000-a-year entry-level job at Goldman Sachs versus a $30,000-a-year position at a struggling startup, they should take the startup role. At Goldman Sachs, they will be buried among hundreds of peers without real responsibility, whereas at a startup, they will get hands-on experience and actual accountability. Greene shares a personal anecdote from his own youth, recalling living in London in 1984 on roughly 30 pounds a week. He and his girlfriend survived almost entirely on turnips and cauliflower cheese, but because he was 25, he could handle the hardship in exchange for learning and growing.
* **Goldman Sachs vs. Startup Dilemma:** $150k corporate role vs. $30k hands-on startup role in New York (e.g., sharing a flat in Bushwick).
* **Greene’s Personal Memory:** Living in London in 1984 on around £30 a week, eating cauliflower cheese and turnips with his girlfriend.
* **Key Philosophy:** Being an entrepreneur and becoming your own boss is the most powerful position to aim for, allowing a person to carve out a unique niche and build sustainable wealth by age 35.
---
[22:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1370s) The Longer Road vs. Shortcuts
Steven Bartlett pushes back slightly on the entrepreneurial ideal, referencing a famous quote from Elon Musk that building companies is like "chewing glass and staring into the abyss." Bartlett admits to feeling the intense pain and uncertainty of running businesses, sometimes feeling a subtle envy toward employees who are blissfully unaware of the underlying chaos. Greene responds that the solution lies in redefining one's timeline for pleasure and happiness. If a person demands immediate comfort every day, entrepreneurship will break them; but if they stretch their perspective to long-term fulfillment, they gain the room to maneuver and endure short-term pain.
Greene highlights Steve Jobs as the prime example of someone who was never motivated by money. Jobs was driven by a desire to design the most beautiful technology in the world, and wealth followed naturally as a byproduct. Greene notes that while he isn't as rich as Steve Jobs, focusing on his craft rather than quick financial returns allowed him to thrive on his own terms.
> "Money is not what matters to you. Because when you're in your 20s, you can starve, you can live on less food, you can have it a little tough because you're young... take the longer road, which is the acquisition of skills."
---
[26:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1582s) Channeling Your Dark Side and Knowing Your Limits
Bartlett opens up about how his own "dark side"—feelings of insecurity, shame, and a desire to fit in—acted as a powerful engine for his success. He asks how one can channel these inner demons so they remain productive rather than destructive, mentioning a friend who runs away from past shame by working 18 hours a day. Greene acknowledges that while dark drivers can launch a career, they can easily turn into a toxic addiction if a person does not know their limits or gets consumed by fame and money.
To demonstrate the danger of unchecked ambition, Greene recounts his time serving on the board of directors for **American Apparel**. He worked alongside the founder and CEO, **Dov Charney**, an extraordinary entrepreneur who built a retail empire from a single shop in Los Angeles. Charney was possessed by a demon to constantly expand, buy more buildings, and open stores globally. When the 2007 financial crash hit, the company was so heavily leveraged and overextended that it never truly recovered.
* **The Trap of Ego:** Success often leads founders to believe they have the "Midas touch," causing them to double down on past tactics instead of staying creative and open-minded.
* **The American Apparel Example:** Expansion for the sake of scale and debt-fueled growth destroyed a brand that could have remained wildly successful with just a few refined stores.
---
[30:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1820s) How Important Is Focus for Mastery?
The conversation shifts to the topic of focus, with Bartlett observing how common it is for young people to scatter their efforts across multiple side hustles—such as crypto, health, and e-commerce—rather than mastering one thing. Greene agrees, sharing an ongoing situation where he is mentoring the 20-year-old son of an old friend. Despite being wealthy and successful, the young man spreads himself across crypto, media, sports, and fitness without a single underlying thread. Greene explains that success cannot start from what is currently "sexy" in the external world; it must originate from inside the individual.
To help the young man, Greene helped him identify a unifying passion: his fascination with celebrity culture and high-profile networking. By framing his interests around the film industry as a producer, he could combine networking, raising money, and working with diverse industries into a single, focused trajectory.
---
[35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2100s) The Discipline of Saying No
Bartlett shares a pivotal moment from his youth when he was 18 years old. After pitching a shiny new business idea to his first major investor, the investor delivered a blunt, stern wake-up call, warning him that if he didn't focus on one core pursuit, he would fail at everything. Bartlett then reflects on a well-known video clip of former Apple Chief Design Officer **Jony Ive** discussing his time working alongside **Steve Jobs**.
Ive described Jobs as the most remarkably focused person he had ever met. Jobs taught Ive that focus is not a passive aspiration, nor is it simply saying "no" to ideas you weren't interested in doing anyway. True focus requires saying "no" to an idea that you believe in with every bone in your body—a phenomenal, exciting idea that keeps you up at night—because you are dedicated to the single thing that matters right now. Greene echoes this sentiment, applying it to his own writing process: true focus means zooming in on the finest grains of sand to clearly identify your exact message and brand identity.
> "What focus means is saying no to something that you, with every bone in your body, you think is a phenomenal idea... but you say no to it because you're focusing on something else."
* **The Myth of Instagram Success:** Greene reminds listeners that the people they envy—like historical billionaire **Aristotle Onassis**, who despite his immense wealth, yachts, and marriage to Jacqueline Kennedy, was notoriously miserable—are rarely as happy as their outward image suggests.
* **Granular Focus:** Mastery requires avoiding distracting speaking invitations or side projects to concentrate entirely on the exact core of one's message.
[40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2400s) The Hidden Years of Grit and Compounding Returns
Focusing deeply on a goal requires immense internal energy because the brain inherently signals discomfort when deviating from the core objective. This friction makes deep work feel painful in the moment, especially for young people who feel like they are missing out while others are having fun. However, this focused effort pays off years down the line when compounding returns kick in.
Early progress in any high-level pursuit is notoriously slow, flat, and unrewarding. Successful podcasters like Lewis Howes, Chris Williamson, and Jay Shetty faced years of silence before seeing explosive growth. Similarly, during the collaboration on *The 50th Law*, 50 Cent demonstrated an extraordinary work ethic that the public rarely sees behind the glamour. Before reaching global fame, he endured years of grinding, being dropped by his label, getting shot, and slowly building his way back up until Eminem discovered him. Success is rarely an overnight phenomenon; it requires an intense period of acquiring skills without immediate validation.
* **The Compounding Curve:** Initial phases of mastery involve acquiring skills and understanding audiences, which yields little visible reward at first but sets up exponential growth later.
* **The Reality of Celebrity:** The public sees only the glamour and excitement of high achievers, completely overlooking the long years of hardship, discipline, and near-failure.
---
[43:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2604s) Recognizing Your Frame of Intelligence
Understanding your personal form of intelligence is vital for long-term fulfillment and success. Referencing Howard Gardner's theory from *Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences*, intelligence extends far beyond logical and academic pursuits into five core domains:
| Intelligence Type | Core Characteristics | Example Professions / Figures |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **Logical** | Abstract reasoning and problem-solving | Scientists, Mathematicians |
| **Linguistic** | Deep sensitivity to words, meaning, and structure | Writers, Lawyers, Poets |
| **Interpersonal** | High empathy and social leadership | Leaders, Psychologists, Teachers |
| **Spatial** | Visualizing and manipulating space | Architects, Artists, Pilots |
| **Bodily** | Mastery of physical movement and control | Athletes (e.g., Kobe Bryant), Dancers, Surgeons |
> "Intelligence is also bodily intelligence... somebody like Kobe Bryant in basketball is as intelligent as Albert Einstein, but in a different way."
Aligning with your innate frame of intelligence dictates career success and personal joy. Pushing a child toward purely academic tracks when their natural gifts lie in bodily or interpersonal intelligence sets them up for misery. Early awareness of linguistic intelligence—being fascinated by words and letters at five years old—shaped a lifelong career path in writing. In contrast, lacking mechanical intelligence despite having a father skilled in building things demonstrates that intelligence styles do not strictly follow genetic patterns. Aligning work with one's natural cognitive strengths gives a clear, adaptable direction in life.
---
[46:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2814s) Understanding Envy: The Primary Emotion
Envy is one of the ugliest human emotions because it forces an admission of feeling inferior to someone else. Psychologist Alfred Adler posited that the drive to overcome feelings of inferiority and feel superior motivates up to $90\%$ of human behavior. Envy has deep evolutionary roots in primates; chimpanzees express visible resentment when observing another receive a preferred reward like a banana or a grape.
Because the human brain learns and functions through direct comparison, highly social environments naturally trigger envy. In ancient hunter-gatherer societies, envy was so dangerous to group harmony that individuals who received gifts had to distribute them to avoid becoming targets of violence or murder. Modern culture masks this emotion through rationalization: instead of admitting someone is more talented, people convince themselves that the other person is a "hack" or merely catering to cheap tastes. Social media acts as a modern "nuclear bomb of envy," constantly broadcasting the relative success, wealth, and happiness of others, deeply impacting both personal relationships and political systems.
* **Alfred Adler's Inferiority Complex:** The constant desire to feel superior drives most human behavior, making perceived inferiority deeply painful.
* **Evolutionary Antecedents:** Primate behaviors show that comparing outcomes and feeling resentment over unequal rewards is genetically hardwired.
* **Modern Escalation:** Social media accentuates evolutionary comparison triggers, constantly fueling feelings of inadequacy.
---
[52:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3137s) Productive Strategies to Channel Envy
The crucial first step in neutralizing envy is openly admitting to feeling it, rather than letting it fester into resentment. Admitting moments of envy—such as noticing the rapid success, productivity, and personal life of a younger author like Ryan Holiday—allows one to process the emotion rationally. Once acknowledged, it becomes clear that the other person has earned their success through hard work and high ethical standards.
Envy can be converted into productive behavior through specific psychological strategies:
* **Emulation:** Transform passive resentment into active competition. Use the feeling of inferiority as fuel to work harder, improve skills, and match or exceed the target's achievements.
* **Mitfreude (Shared Joy):** Instead of feeling *schadenfreude* (pleasure in another's misfortune), actively practice *mitfreude*—feeling genuine joy for another's success.
* **The "As-If" Strategy:** Originating from psychologist William James, this method involves consciously acting as if you are happy for someone else's achievement. Over time, performing the action shifts internal emotional states, creating a noble and expansive mindset.
---
[54:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3241s) Powerlessness, Loneliness, and the Modern Crisis
The enduring popularity of *The 48 Laws of Power*—with sales increasing significantly in recent years—stems from widespread feelings of helplessness and chaos. Major historical disruptors, such as the 2008 financial crash and the COVID-19 pandemic, intensified the feeling that the world is anarchic, leading people to seek structured guidance on regaining control over their lives.
> "I do attribute the success not necessarily to my brilliance or the brilliance of the book, but to the fact that people are feeling more and more helpless."
This systemic powerlessness intersects with a severe crisis of loneliness and isolation, which health studies compare to the damage of smoking 15 cigarettes a day. Young people—particularly young men—face high rates of addiction, aimlessness, and rising suicide rates. This issue is deeply cultural: society overemphasizes fame and superficial celebrity while neglecting discipline, practical skills, and a sense of clear purpose.
* **Cultural Factors:** Modern culture promotes instant fame while offering little guidance on discipline, skill acquisition, or meaningful direction.
* **Atrophy of Social Skills:** Digital interactions and swiping apps eliminate the necessary discomfort of real-world socializing, rejection, and reading body language. Without practice in live environments, interpersonal abilities decline, trapping individuals in a cycle of isolation.
[01:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3600s) Understanding Solitude vs. Loneliness
```
SOLITUDE vs. LONELINESS
┌─────────────────────────┴─────────────────────────┐
│ │
SOLITUDE (Choice) LONELINESS (State)
• Introspection & reflection • Feeling disconnected
• Develops unique voice & skills • Craves social validation
• "Relief from idiotic people" • Driven by shame or fear
```
Solitude carries an unnecessary societal taboo, making people feel shamed simply for being on their own. Knowing how to be alone is essential for personal growth, acquiring skills, and understanding what makes an individual unique. Developing this capacity requires deliberate practice, similar to building physical strength at the gym. By forcing oneself to step away from screens and engage in real-world interactions—even just ten times a month—an individual strengthens their "social muscle."
There is a fundamental distinction between the emotional burden of loneliness and the constructive nature of solitude, as referenced in Law 18 of *The 48 Laws of Power* ("Do Not Build Fortresses to Protect Yourself—Isolation is Dangerous"):
* **Loneliness:** A painful feeling of disconnect, where an individual feels disliked, unrespected, or unable to form meaningful relationships.
* **Solitude:** A deliberate choice to step away from public static, recharge, read, and embrace one's idiosyncrasies without worrying about social validation.
A distinct line exists between self-imposed isolation and self-discovery. Isolating oneself cuts off valuable information and allies, yet a person who cannot endure moments of quiet turns to constant digital stimulation out of desperation.
* **Law 18 Context:** Isolation deprives an individual of strategic intelligence, whereas periodic solitude fosters original thought.
* **The Social Muscle Analogy:** Engaging in real-world social interactions ten times a month systematically reduces social anxiety and builds interpersonal competence.
[01:03:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3780s) Finding Purpose at Rock Bottom
Reflecting on earlier periods of deep depression and suicidal ideation, Robert Greene shares how an internal awareness of his own uniqueness sustained him. Despite feeling out of step with peers through high school and his early adulthood, an inner voice urged him to persevere and trust his talent as a writer.
At age 35 or 36, while living in Italy and feeling at his lowest point, Greene met book packager Joost Elfers. When Elfers asked if he had any ideas for a book, Greene improvised the concept that would become *The 48 Laws of Power*. Elfers immediately funded the proposal and supported Greene while he wrote it. This breakthrough transformed years of negative experiences with toxic, manipulative bosses into valuable raw material for his work, instantly shifting his mindset from darkness to purpose.
> "All my worst experiences can go into this book. It all has purpose for it... I was literally at that moment before it happened, pretty much near rock bottom."
* **Turning Point:** Meeting Joost Elfers in Italy at age 35–36 transformed years of career frustration into a clear direction.
* **Reframing Bad Experiences:** Difficult working environments and manipulative supervisors provided direct case studies for *The 48 Laws of Power*.
* **Alternate Trajectory:** Greene speculates that without this breakthrough, he might have spiraled into severe alcoholism, health issues, or an early death.
[01:07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4020s) Opportunity and Mindset
Opportunities surround people constantly, but recognizing them requires the right mental state and preparation. Citing experiments mentioned by Darren Brown and psychological research on perception, Greene highlights how a person's underlying mindset dictates whether they spot opportunities or walk right past them.
* **The Newspaper Study:** Researchers tested self-identified pessimists and optimists by giving them a newspaper to search for specific vouchers. The optimists quickly noticed a large message on the first page reading: *"Stop, go to the researchers now, you've won $100."* The pessimists routinely overlooked it.
* **The Street Experiment:** In a similar test, an envelope or money was placed on a sidewalk. Optimistic subjects routinely noticed and retrieved it, whereas pessimistic subjects walked past without looking down.
In *The Laws of Human Nature*, Greene outlines two fundamental mindsets that shape reality:
* **The Closed (Constricted) Attitude:** Sees hostility, limitation, and negativity everywhere. This narrow focus creates a self-fulfilling prophecy of failure and isolation.
* **The Expansive (Open) Attitude:** Views life with curiosity, hope, and readiness. It actively seeks out small openings and creates favorable circumstances from minor chances.
[01:09:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4177s) The Erosion of Romance through Pornography
The widespread availability of digital pornography creates systemic issues for young men and women attempting to form authentic romantic relationships. Approximately 80% of men and 40% of women in the United States consume pornography, exposing themselves to algorithms designed to exploit human psychology for continuous engagement.
In his work on "Love Sublime," Greene describes the highest form of human connection as a process where ego boundaries melt, allowing two people to share each other's worlds. True romantic connection requires "falling"—exposing oneself to vulnerability and accepting the risk of getting hurt.
Pornography distorts this natural dynamic:
* **Mechanization:** It strips intimacy of romance, turning human interaction into a series of robotic movements.
* **Disenchantment:** It removes the mystery, electricity, and emotional depth from sex.
* **Fear of Vulnerability:** It offers a frictionless substitute for real relationships, teaching people to avoid the emotional risk required for actual love.
> "Pornography is disenchanting you from everything. It's making it all mechanical and ugly... It's almost as if the two humans involved are like machine parts."
* **Cinematic Example:** Greene references a kiss in a 1950s film by Japanese director Yasujirō Ozu, where emotional tension and restraint created a far more powerful and exciting atmosphere than explicit imagery could achieve.
* **Human Enrichment:** Deep, romantic experiences—whether they last three months or twenty years—enrich human consciousness and deepen emotional capacity.
* **Sponsor:** PerfectTed (Matcha energy drinks and powders).
* **Personal Use:** Host Steven Bartlett discusses switching to matcha for sustained energy during long recording schedules without jittery side effects.
* **Offer:** 40% discount using code `STEVEN40` at `perfectted.com`, with availability at major retailers like Tesco, Holland & Barrett, Albert Heijn, and Amazon.
[01:17:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4623s) Dopamine Desensitization and Human Nature
High-dopamine activities like pornography and social media feeds alter motivation and human behavior. Psychological studies on lab animals demonstrate that damaging or overstimulating dopamine pathways destroys initiative: when rats have their dopamine receptors impaired, they will starve even if food is placed inches away, because the neural drive to take action is lost.
```
THE DOPAMINE LOOP
High-Stimulus Trigger ──► Overstimulates ──► Desensitizes Receptors
(Porn / Feeds) Dopamine System
│
Reduced Motivation ◄── Destroys Drive ─────────┘
to Act in Reality & Ambition
```
Constantly flooding the brain with easy dopamine leads to desensitization, lowering overall ambition and contributing to higher rates of purposelessness, sexlessness, and isolation among young people.
* **Physical Existence:** Humans are physical and social animals who process thoughts through bodily sensations, chemistry, and real-world interactions.
* **Digital Disembodiment:** Consuming hyper-stimulating digital media pulls people out of their physical bodies, reducing them to passive data consumers for social platforms.
* **Reclaiming Agency:** Overcoming low motivation requires physical action—working with one's hands, building businesses, exercising, and engaging face-to-face with other human beings.
> "You're a human being with a body, with physical problems, with hormones, with emotions that are coursing through you. And you have to become a physical creature, which means doing things in the world, taking action."
[01:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4800s) Disconnect From the Body and Denial of Our Animal Roots
Robert Greene envisions a future where young people reject the digital saturation currently disconnecting them from physical reality. Reflecting on contemporary life, he expresses a deep hope that within two to three decades, a cultural counter-movement will emerge—one where people rebel against screens to reclaim their basic humanity. He sees early indicators of this shift today, such as college students forming social groups that strictly ban smartphone use, a movement he likens to a modern fraternity or sorority dedicated to real-world presence. Greene notes that if he were young today, he would eagerly join such a movement to spark a revolution back toward our primitive, pagan, and human roots.
Turning to the uncomfortable realities of human nature, Greene argues that society actively denies its primitive, animal origins. Recalling a visit to a zoo in Sydney, Australia, over a decade ago, he observed a compound of chimpanzees displaying complex social dynamics—complete with an alpha male and lower-ranking males, closely mirroring a corporate office structure. What struck Greene was how visitors reacted with nervous laughter and giggles, exposed as visibly uncomfortable by the striking similarities between human and animal behavior. This discomfort highlights a broader refusal to accept the irrational, unrefined, and uncivilized aspects of our nature.
Finally, Greene addresses the universal presence of narcissism, dispelling the belief that self-absorption is confined to prominent public figures like Donald Trump or Elon Musk. He points out that everyone possesses narcissistic traits—from the immediate spark of attention felt when seeing one's birthday mentioned in a book, to an intrinsic self-interest. Rather than framing this as a moral failing, Greene argues it is simply an undeniable feature of human psychology that must be acknowledged rather than hidden behind idealizations of moral purity.
- A few weeks prior to the recording, *The New York Times* published an article highlighting a group of college students who completely rejected social media and banned phone use within their circle.
- Greene emphasizes that before the invention of language, human ancestors lived purely as animals in the outdoors, leaving an indelible mark on present-day psychology.
- During his two-hour observation at the Sydney zoo chimp compound, Greene witnessed social hierarchies directly analogous to executive boardrooms in Manhattan.
[01:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5100s) Healthy Narcissism and Managing Narcissistic Bosses
Greene makes a distinction between destructive "deep narcissism" and "healthy narcissism." While deep narcissists cause significant harm, many accomplished figures and artists harness their self-absorption constructively. Pointing to historical and modern figures, Greene notes that individuals like Steve Jobs or even moral leaders such as Mahatma Gandhi and Martin Luther King Jr. possessed strong narcissistic traits. Jobs, despite being aggressive, assertive, and a control freak, funneled his self-absorbed drive into creating revolutionary products that benefited humanity. Greene asserts that the necessary first step toward self-improvement, akin to the core principle of Alcoholics Anonymous, is simply admitting one's own narcissistic tendencies instead of projecting them onto others.
When navigating relationships with powerful narcissists in the workplace, Greene advises playing a strategic, dual-layered game. Referencing Law 1 from *The 48 Laws of Power* ("Never Outshine the Master"), he explains that one must actively avoid triggering a superior's insecurities. The effective approach requires external compliance—pandering to their ego to protect one's standing—while internally maintaining a clear, realistic assessment of one's own capability and value.
```
"That's the great thing about being a human being: you can do two things at once. You can be consciously playing the game of 'I'm not going to outshine him because he's going to fire me... But at the same time, in my head, I'm going: that person isn't better than me.'"
```
- Admitting personal flaws is likened to the foundational step in Alcoholics Anonymous: one must first acknowledge the reality of their condition before any meaningful change can occur.
- Internalizing an artificial sense of inferiority while serving a narcissistic boss is dangerous, as it can permanently damage an individual's self-esteem.
- Healthy narcissism allows creators and innovators to channel inward focus toward external artistic or technological achievements.
[01:28:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5316s) Everyday Acting, Social Deception, and Law 4
Greene challenges the notion that acting and manipulation are rare or purely malicious, asserting that every human being becomes a performer early in life. By age three, children naturally learn to act—crying for attention or behaving strategically around parents to achieve their desires. Because human language enables deception, social cohesion relies on daily performative behaviors, such as withholding harsh judgments or adapting one's demeanor depending on the audience. Greene notes that people naturally adopt entirely different personas when speaking to a parent, a child, or a corporate colleague.
```
"If everyone went around saying exactly what they felt about the other person, no one would ever get along. We would have killed ourselves off by now."
```
Addressing the discomfort surrounding manipulation, Greene argues that accepting one's capacity for strategic behavior is far healthier than practicing passive-aggressive denial. He highlights Law 4 from his book: "Always Say Less Than Necessary." In professional and social settings, individuals who talk excessively project a lack of self-control, opening themselves up to costly mistakes. Conversely, powerful figures command attention by speaking sparingly, maintaining an aura of mystery and authority that forces others to interpret their words carefully.
Bartlett shares an internal framework he developed during his career as a CEO, termed the "contribution score." He observed that employees who constantly interject unfinished thoughts in meetings lower their perceived value, causing colleagues to tune them out. Conversely, individuals who speak rarely but thoughtfully command total silence and attention whenever they contribute. To illustrate Law 4 in action, Bartlett recalls attending business meetings with the artist 50 Cent, who would sit quietly with a subtle smile, saying almost nothing. His calculated silence caused others in the room to scramble nervously to earn his approval.
- Children act and manipulate early in development to secure resources, attention, and dynamic advantages over siblings.
- Law 4 of *The 48 Laws of Power* states: "Always Say Less Than Necessary."
- Over-talking signals a lack of emotional and behavioral self-control to superiors and peers.
- Bartlett's "contribution score" concept illustrates how frequent, low-quality input diminishes a person's authority in group settings.
[01:34:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5697s) Law 7: Credit, Workplace Reality, and Emotional Self-Control
The conversation turns to Law 7: "Get Others to Do the Work, but Always Take the Credit." Greene clarifies that many laws in *The 48 Laws of Power* contain elements of irony and are designed to expose how the world actually operates rather than serve as a blind moral guide. Recalling his early career working for a film director in Hollywood, Greene describes contributing up to a third of the screenplay's ideas and dialogue during brainstorming sessions, only for the director to put his name on the final product without giving Greene any credit.
While initially resentful, Greene came to recognize this dynamic as an enduring reality in industries like media, entertainment, and politics, where leaders routinely utilize the labor of researchers, writers, and subordinates to build their authority. He cautions that lower-level employees must apply this law with extreme care: aggressively demanding credit or trying to claim group work as an underling often backfires, making the individual look foolish or getting them fired for threatening a superior.
Bartlett confirms this dynamic with an example from his former 200-person agency in Manchester. A young employee in his early twenties habitually complained publicly whenever his name was accidentally omitted from credit tags in team channels. This behavior earned him a negative reputation as overly defensive and desperate for recognition. Greene concludes that mastering these dynamics ultimately rests on emotional self-control—the foundational ability to manage personal insecurity, restrain impulsive reactions, and navigate power structures with tactical patience.
- Law 7 of *The 48 Laws of Power*: "Get Others to Do the Work, but Always Take the Credit."
- Unskilled attempts by subordinates to claim credit frequently lead to social ostracization or immediate termination.
- Emotional self-control serves as the prerequisite foundation for applying any strategy within *The Laws of Human Nature* and *The 48 Laws of Power*.
Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of this section of the interview:
[01:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6000s) Controlling Emotions and Learning from Mistakes
Emotional control should not be confused with stifling your feelings. Emotions provide the essential drive to write a book or launch a business, making full suppression counterproductive. However, unchecked, hysterical outbursts signal incompetence and damage professional standing. Navigating high-stakes environments requires putting up the right facade—a skill acquired through hard-won experience. Young people naturally react emotionally, often learning self-control only after committing major blunders, such as outshining a superior or making reckless statements that cost them their jobs.
When a mistake occurs, human nature instinctively defaults to self-justification, blaming external forces like unsupportive colleagues, lack of capital, or bad timing. True wisdom develops through a conscious shift to a second instinct: stepping back to evaluate one's own contribution to the failure. Even if personal responsibility accounts for only 10% of a bad outcome, framing it as 30% forces critical self-reflection regarding body language, communication, or decisions.
- Elliot Aronson’s book, *Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me)*, illustrates the common psychological trap of externalizing blame.
- Blameless mindsets trap individuals in repetitive failure cycles, whereas exaggerating one's personal fault accelerates growth and skill development.
---
[01:43:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6229s) Handling Injustice, Office Politics, and Asymmetrical Warfare
When wronged in the workplace—such as a colleague sabotaging a promotion through backstabbing—the appropriate response depends entirely on context and organizational dynamics. Organizations sit on a scale from zero to 100: a score of 100 represents a pure "reality group" focused strictly on results, while a score of 20 indicates a toxic environment driven entirely by office politics and sycophancy. In low-scoring environments where toxicity is systemic, the most practical solution is to leave.
When staying is necessary, three tactical options exist:
* **Ignore the Provocation:** Focus entirely on personal excellence. Success serves as the ultimate revenge, and maintaining emotional composure often unnerves competitors who expect a defensive reaction.
* **Employ a Deterrent Strategy:** Unethical opponents engage in asymmetrical warfare, utilizing tactics standard professionals avoid. To halt ongoing abuse, a measured, targeted retaliation—such as damaging the opponent's reputation or leaking counter-information—signals that attacks carry severe consequences.
* **Exit the Environment:** When a toxic superior or peer cannot be bypassed, quitting remains the cleanest resolution.
Predators naturally target those who display vulnerability. Maintaining composure or executing a decisive counter-warning signals strength, protecting against future aggression.
---
[01:49:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6560s) Historical Cycles of Chaos and the Appeal of Simple Solutions
Humanity periodically enters historical cycles of chaos brought on by wars, plagues, or rapid economic shifts. During these periods, pervasive feelings of helplessness lead populations to seek out authoritarian figures and simplistic narratives. Modern global pressures—including climate-related anxiety, unpredictable globalized supply chains, and untrustworthy political systems—create high levels of societal neurosis.
```
[Systemic Chaos / Helplessness] ──► [Loss of Trust in Authority] ──► [Vulnerability to Demagogues & Simple Myths]
```
These dynamics are amplified by social media and viral memes, creating a far more volatile landscape than past crises like the Black Death, the Hundred Years' War, or the French Industrial Revolution. Navigating this environment requires maintaining a long-term view, cultivating healthy skepticism toward ideological narratives, and resisting seductive political promises such as universal tariffs or total immigration bans.
- Political demagogues exploit fear by offering one-sentence answers to complex structural problems.
- Emotional detachment acts as a safeguard against manipulative media cycles and societal panics.
---
[01:54:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6857s) Independent Thinking, Masculinity, and Political Polarization
The audience reaching out most frequently regarding *The 48 Laws of Power* consists of young men—the same demographic that strongly backed Donald Trump. True strength and masculinity demand independent thought rather than blind allegiance to political factions. While many self-described "masculine" individuals react aggressively online, real emotional fortitude involves self-criticism and acknowledging flaws within one's chosen political side.
> "Being emotional isn't masculinity. Masculinity is self-control... Weak people can't criticize themselves."
A psychological study measuring testosterone levels demonstrated that individuals with higher testosterone were less likely to conform to social pressures, underscoring that genuine conviction involves resisting tribal groupthink. Disliking rigid binary political choices allows for nuanced evaluation: acknowledging economic or social merits on both sides rather than adopting an all-or-nothing ideology.
- The Left often undermines its credibility through extreme, performative policy stances that alienate mainstream voters.
- Blind online hostility masquerading as toughness reflects insecurity and an inability to think independently.
---
[01:57:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7024s) Strategic Messaging and Political Realities
Despite clear ideological differences, key strategic elements account for Donald Trump's political effectiveness—most notably his mastery of communication and clear messaging. The Democratic Party, by contrast, consistently struggles to articulate a coherent vision, failing to project strength or a willingness to fight for core principles.
Effective political leadership requires taking clear stands, even if it alienates specific interest groups. Being hated by opponents can serve as a political asset because it projects authenticity and resolve. Successful political communication demands simple, focused messaging that resonates directly with a core base rather than trying to appease every faction simultaneously.
[02:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7200s) Binary Purity Tests and the Traps of Ideological Tribes
Robert Greene criticizes modern "woke" culture and ideological purity tests for reducing complex real-world issues into black-and-white binary polarities. Life operates in gray zones, yet political discourse demands that failing a specific ideological test instantly labels someone an evil person. Illustrating this complexity, Greene shares his own background as a non-Zionist Jewish man who bar mitzvahed and lost a large part of his ancestry in the Holocaust—a deep childhood trauma his parents were still recovering from. Despite this, having met Palestinians who recounted the horror of losing their land and country, he feels deeply conflicted and can see both sides. He views Benjamin Netanyahu as a "horrible person" and believes a middle ground via a two-state solution is possible, yet totalitarians on both extremes dismiss nuanced positions as complicity in genocide.
Steven Bartlett relates to this struggle, sharing that existing in the political middle leaves him attacked by both sides—left-wingers label him right-wing and vice versa. Bartlett admits a primitive, instinctual urge to simply pick a side to gain group protection and escape isolation. Greene acknowledges that while finding safety in a group is tempting, doing so causes you to "lose your soul" and dignity. Greene recalls traveling to Nicaragua in 1983 as a young left-wing journalist to report on the war between the Sandinistas and the Contras. Standing in an immense plaza in Managua—a city still half in rubble from a massive earthquake—among hundreds of thousands of people gathered for the Pope's visit, Greene felt an intoxicating, overwhelming collective energy that he never experienced again.
However, Greene warns that this group euphoria is extremely dangerous because it can easily turn ugly. Reflecting on his own experience, he draws a parallel to his fascination with Hitler documentaries and the Nuremberg rallies, where mass crowds marching with torches displayed a drug-like, hypnotic mania.
* **Key Takeaways & Realities:**
* **Ideology vs. Reality:** Pure moral posturing avoids the hard, messy work of rolling up one's sleeves to craft practical, compromised solutions.
* **Nicaragua Example:** While Greene originally sympathized with the Sandinistas in 1983, history proved Daniel Ortega's regime turned out to be genuinely evil.
* **Group Dynamics:** Belonging to a mob offers intoxicating validation, but maintaining self-distance is critical to preserving personal integrity.
---
[02:05:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7500s) Human Stupidity, Political Mania, and Trump's Power Laws
Greene addresses whether society is currently trapped in a similar collective mania driven by simplistic, unthought-out solutions. He defines **human stupidity**—a topic he spent years researching for an intended book project—not as a lack of intelligence, but as the fundamental inability to foresee the long-term consequences of one's actions. It is the dangerous assumption of total certainty that drives impulsive decisions without considering steps three, four, and five down the road. Today's political landscape reflects an adolescent "id" running the world, taking fierce, angry actions that will produce horrific consequences five years later.
When asked how Donald Trump deploys the laws of power, Greene highlights several key strategies that Trump has mastered:
* **Court Attention at All Costs (Law 6):** Trump has achieved an unprecedented level of global obsession; Greene notes traveling to remote corners of the world like Singapore or Australia where everyone was constantly discussing Trump.
* **Play on People's Need to Believe (Law 27):** Trump created a genuine cult-like following where his followers believe nothing he does can be wrong and that God is actively protecting him.
* **Enter Action with Boldness (Law 28):** Trump operates with absolute, uncompromising boldness to dominate the news cycle and create compelling spectacles.
---
[02:09:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7756s) The Pitfalls of Identity and "The Law of the Sublime"
Discussing Law 48 (*Assume Formlessness*), Bartlett and Greene explore how rigid identity becomes a trap, often triggering midlife crises when professionals attach their entire sense of self to labels like "accountant," "lawyer," "Trump follower," or "entrepreneur." Greene argues that human beings are far more than superficial labels; each person possesses a deeper character or "soul." He prefers to view himself as a "citizen of the world," expressing deep fascination for diverse cultures ranging from West African Yoruba traditions to Aztec history.
Greene highlights the Aztec capital of **Tenochtitlan**, a breathtaking city built on water that was equal in beauty to Venice, Italy, before being completely destroyed by Spanish conquistadors. He emphasizes that all human cultures stem from the exact same evolutionary roots, making rigid ethnic and political tribalism unnecessary.
Greene connects this worldview to his upcoming book, **"The Law of the Sublime"** (projected for release in **2026**). He explains his motivation: modern minds are shrinking into trivial, banal matters at the exact moment science is revealing mind-bending discoveries about the Big Bang, black holes, Earth's ancient history, and interspecies consciousness.
> "Our minds are getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. We're so absorbed in things that are so unimportant, so banal, so trivial, so stupid... I want to open your eyes and expand your consciousness instead of shrink it."
* **Book Progress & Personal Toll:**
* **Difficult Process:** Due to physical limitations following a stroke, Greene handwrites everything across two notebooks filled with sticky notes and then dictates it into a computer.
* **Physical Strain:** The grueling process of writing this book has taken roughly six years, pushing his health to its limits during intense chapter deadlines.
* **Final Push:** Greene is finishing the 10th chapter out of 12, aiming to complete the manuscript by the end of the year for a 2026 publication.
* **Future Projects:** Joking about the intense stress, Greene claims his next book will be about something simple and lighthearted, like "kittens" or the "Lakers."
---
[02:19:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8361s) The Primary Law of Human Psychology: Judging by Appearances
Transitioning to social dynamics, Greene addresses one of his most widely viewed speech clips regarding the primary law of human psychology: **people judge based entirely on appearances**. While uncomfortable to admit, Greene stresses that power is ultimately a game of pure psychology where surface perceptions, signals, and visible behaviors dictate how others treat and react to you.
Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of the transcript segment.
[02:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8400s) The Power of Optics, Body Language, and the Mask of Power
Robert Greene explains that power is not like sports—such as baseball—where clear metrics, rules, and statistics (like winning 5 to 0) dictate the winner with very little psychology involved. Instead, decisions in the realm of power are driven almost entirely by human psychology and appearances. For instance, voters choosing Donald Trump over Kamala Harris did not spend four hours analyzing spreadsheets of economic policies; rather, they judged based on optics, presence, and who projected greater authority. Greene shares that he witnessed this firsthand while serving on corporate boards of directors: CEOs were frequently hired not for superior track records or financial metrics, but for their political skills and mastery of office optics.
The core of the "power game" lies in understanding human psychology and projecting the proper image. Greene highlights several rules of power centered around managing appearances: never outshining the master, saying less than necessary, courting attention, avoiding isolation, and wearing the mask of someone in control. Because humans are social animals, power is communicated primarily through nonverbal cues:
* **Powerful individuals** project ease: they appear relaxed in meetings, can place their bodies anywhere comfortably, maintain direct eye contact with everyone in the room, and possess a focused gaze.
* **Weak or insecure individuals** display tight, nervous body language, avert their gaze, and engage in nervous touching of their hair or face.
Greene notes that playing this game of appearances is often more complicated for women, as nonverbal traits interpreted as "powerful" in men are frequently misconstrued as "mean" or "bitchy." Nevertheless, projecting inner security becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy, encapsulated in the law "act like a king to be treated like one." He cites the iconic example of Christopher Columbus—the son of a grocer—who carried himself with such noble conviction that he convinced the Spanish monarchy he came from nobility, securing funding for his voyages to the Americas.
- **Key concept:** Success in power relies heavily on optics, acting, and psychological cues rather than pure objective metrics.
- **Historical example:** Christopher Columbus leveraged an "as-if" noble posture to secure royal backing for his voyages.
---
[02:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8700s) Real Confidence vs. Faking It: The "As-If" Strategy
While optics and faking confidence can grant initial access, Greene clarifies that pure hype will eventually fail if results are not produced. Genuine confidence can spring from an almost unshakeable, innate belief in one's greatness (akin to a prince), but it can also be systematically cultivated. The firmest basis for confidence comes from having actual past achievements—a track record to anchor one's self-assurance.
For those lacking natural confidence, Greene references William James, the pioneer of early 20th-century American psychology, who advocated for "as-if" strategies. James posited that physical actions generate psychological states—for example, forcing a smile can make a person genuinely feel happier. If someone acts bodily as if they are confident and deserving, their mind adapts, radiating power outward. To tap into this state, individuals can borrow a technique used by actors: recalling specific past moments of success or pride (such as throwing a game-winning touchdown in high school) to summon the underlying emotion of confidence into the present.
- **William James's "As-If" Strategy:** Bodily and physical actions directly generate and influence psychological states.
- **Method for self-assurance:** Mentally revisit past moments of victory or excellence to trigger real feelings of confidence.
---
[02:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9000s) Entering with Boldness: Why the World Moves Out of the Way
When asked which single law or fact of human nature powerless or adrift people should focus on most, Greene points to **entering action with boldness**. Timidity creates a self-fulfilling cycle of failure, whereas boldness commands attention and admiration—even when a bold attempt stumbles or fails. People naturally respect direct, dramatic action over the hesitant person who spends two years merely talking about starting a podcast.
To illustrate the power of boldness, Greene shares the story of an interviewer who founded *Bad Ideas* magazine in the early 2000s. After his mother told him starting the publication was a "really bad idea," he boldly adopted the phrase as the title, turning a mother's warning into a successful marketing gimmick. Expressing frustration with modern conformity, Greene laments how afraid and similar everyone has become, arguing that standing out as a unique, loud voice forces the world to pay attention. He points to Elon Musk as a prime example of someone whose bold ambitions—such as aiming for Mars rather than minor commercial goals—compel people to follow him.
Host Steven Bartlett validates Greene's thesis with a personal memory from the Global Citizen festival in New York City. While in the VIP section behind the stage featuring headliners like Beyoncé, Bartlett's drunk friend grabbed his hand and walked directly past two massive security guards into the restricted artist section. Because the friend walked with absolute conviction, the guards simply stepped aside without checking badges. Bartlett reveals he recently successfully used the exact same tactic—walking with posture and conviction straight through a conference hall inside a hotel—to use a private restroom.
- **Key Maxims on Boldness:**
- *Boldness strikes fear and creates authority.*
- *Hesitation creates gaps; boldness obliterates them.*
- *Going halfway with half a heart digs a deeper grave.*
- **Entrepreneurial advice:** When negotiating or raising investment, pitch the boldest possible figure (e.g., asking for $1,000,000 instead of $200,000) to secure a higher result than timidity would yield.
---
[02:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9300s) Perspective on Mobility, Gratitude, and Advice to a Younger Self
Concluding the conversation, Bartlett presents the podcast's traditional final question left by the previous guest: *"Close your eyes and imagine yourself 10 years from now. Where are you, what are you doing, and who are you with?"*
Greene responds with deep emotion, sharing that his ultimate dream is simply to be alive, healthy, and able to take a walk up a hill with his wife. Following a stroke caused by a bee/wasp sting, Greene lost significant physical mobility. He explains that he used to love hiking and being outdoors, and if he could regain the ability to walk up a mountain, he would cry tears of joy. He reflects on how deeply frustrating it is to have basic physical abilities taken away—something that healthy people take completely for granted every day.
Looking out his office window, Greene watches neighbors jogging, riding bikes, or fixing cars in their driveways, realizing they rarely appreciate the miracle of their own mobility. He points out that the human act of walking is a constant, miraculous balancing act on one leg at a time. While his physical limitations are difficult, Greene expresses gratitude that his mind remains sharp enough to write books, though he longs deeply to swim and hike again.
Reflecting on what he would whisper to his 20-year-old self, Greene offers a message of peace:
> "Just don't think about it, Robert. Everything is going to come out okay. Just be who you are. Don't regret anything, it's all working out for the best."
He adds that if he were speaking to his 34-year-old self, he would remind him never to give up, because an incredible life lay ahead—one where he would meet his childhood idol Stevie Wonder and have his books read and publicly mentioned by Bob Dylan.
- **Health context:** Greene suffered a stroke triggered by an allergic reaction to a bee/wasp sting, limiting his mobility in his 60s.
- **Reflections on everyday life:** The everyday miracle of walking requires continuous balance on one leg—a physical freedom that should never be taken for granted.
- **Noteworthy achievements mentioned:** Being recognized and read by Bob Dylan, and meeting childhood hero Stevie Wonder.
[02:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9600s) Reflecting on the Past and Closing Remarks
Reflecting on what advice he would give to his younger self, Robert Greene admits that if he could go back, he might tell his childhood self that he would eventually meet icon figures like 50 Cent or various world leaders. However, he quickly checks himself, noting that receiving such reassurance early on might have backfired. He acknowledges that if his younger self knew success was guaranteed, he might have become lazy and given up the work ethic required to achieve it. Ultimately, he realizes that the self-doubt, worry, and neurotic energy he experienced throughout his life were actually vital ingredients that fueled his relentless ambition and drive.
Host Steven Bartlett expresses deep gratitude for Greene's time, highlighting how much dedication and agonizing effort Greene pours into each of his books compared to more flippant authors. Bartlett mentions reading through the comments on previous episodes and seeing the profound impact Greene's personal story—including his openness about surviving a stroke and gaining a renewed gratitude for life—has had on the audience. Looking forward with high anticipation to Greene's upcoming book, Bartlett praises the author's ability to impart invaluable wisdom every time he joins the show.
Greene warmly thanks Bartlett for the opportunity, calling it an honor to appear on such an exciting podcast for his third time. He shares a lighthearted observation that every morning before coming onto the show, he finds himself in an exceptionally good mood, wondering playfully whether it's just a coincidence or a direct result of being on the show. The interview wraps up with Bartlett delivering his traditional sign-off to the audience, noting that 53 percent of regular listeners have not yet subscribed, and inviting them to hit the subscribe button to support the podcast's ongoing growth.
- Robert Greene reflects on how his youthful "neurotic energy" and constant doubt served as necessary motivators for his career.
- Steven Bartlett emphasizes the audience's deep appreciation for Greene's vulnerability regarding his health struggles and his stroke recovery.
- The episode ends with Bartlett's commitment to constantly improve the podcast based on listener feedback for those who hit the subscribe button.
## Notable quotes
> [02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=123s) It is the most important decision in your life, figuring out what you were destined for, why you were born, what you were created for, what makes you unique. — Robert Greene
> [02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=123s) To know who you are, to know what you were meant to do in life... requires a lot of reflection on yourself, self-awareness, self-knowledge. You have to go inward. — Robert Greene
> [22:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1370s) Money is not what matters to you. Because when you're in your 20s, you can starve, you can live on less food, you can have it a little tough because you're young... take the longer road, which is the acquisition of skills. — Robert Greene
> [35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2100s) What focus means is saying no to something that you, with every bone in your body, you think is a phenomenal idea... but you say no to it because you're focusing on something else. — Steven Bartlett / Jony Ive
> [43:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2604s) Intelligence is also bodily intelligence... somebody like Kobe Bryant in basketball is as intelligent as Albert Einstein, but in a different way. — Robert Greene
> [54:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3241s) I do attribute the success not necessarily to my brilliance or the brilliance of the book, but to the fact that people are feeling more and more helpless. — Robert Greene
> [01:06:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3960s) All my worst experiences can go into this book. It all has purpose for it... I was literally at that moment before it happened, pretty much near rock bottom. — Robert Greene
> [01:09:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4177s) Pornography is disenchanting you from everything. It's making it all mechanical and ugly... It's almost as if the two humans involved are like machine parts. — Robert Greene
> [01:17:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4623s) You're a human being with a body, with physical problems, with hormones, with emotions that are coursing through you. And you have to become a physical creature, which means doing things in the world, taking action. — Robert Greene
> [01:25:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5100s) That's the great thing about being a human being: you can do two things at once. You can be consciously playing the game of 'I'm not going to outshine him because he's going to fire me... But at the same time, in my head, I'm going: that person isn't better than me.' — Robert Greene
> [01:28:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5316s) If everyone went around saying exactly what they felt about the other person, no one would ever get along. We would have killed ourselves off by now. — Robert Greene
> [01:49:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6560s) Being emotional isn't masculinity. Masculinity is self-control... Weak people can't criticize themselves. — Robert Greene
> [02:09:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7756s) Our minds are getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. We're so absorbed in things that are so unimportant, so banal, so trivial, so stupid... I want to open your eyes and expand your consciousness instead of shrink it. — Robert Greene
> [02:28:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8900s) Just don't think about it, Robert. Everything is going to come out okay. Just be who you are. Don't regret anything, it's all working out for the best. — Robert Greene
## Mentioned
50 Cent, Albert Einstein, Albert Heijn, Alcoholics Anonymous, Amazon, American Apparel, Apple, Aristotle Onassis, Bad Ideas magazine, Benjamin Netanyahu, Beyoncé, Bob Dylan, Christopher Columbus, Chris Williamson, Contras, Daniel Ortega, Darren Brown, Democratic Party, Donald Trump, Dov Charney, Elliot Aronson, Elon Musk, Eminem, Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences, Global Citizen festival, Goldman Sachs, Hitler, Holland & Barrett, Howard Gardner, Jacqueline Kennedy, Jay Shetty, Jony Ive, Joost Elfers, Kamala Harris, Kobe Bryant, Left, Lewis Howes, Love Sublime, Mahatma Gandhi, Martin Luther King Jr., Mastery, Mistakes Were Made (but Not by Me), New York Times, PerfectTed, Ryan Holiday, Sandinistas, Sigmund Freud, Steve Jobs, Steven Bartlett, Stevie Wonder, Tesco, Tenochtitlan, The 33 Laws Of Business & Life, The 33 Strategies of War, The 48 Laws of Power, The 50th Law, The Art of Seduction, The Courage to Be Disliked, The Daily Laws, The Diary Of A CEO, The Law of the Sublime, The Laws of Human Nature, William James, Yasujirō Ozu
Author Robert Greene argues that widespread modern feelings of alienation, loneliness, and powerlessness stem from digital overstimulation, a lack of self-awareness, and an aversion to real-world friction. He contends that long-term fulfillment requires uncovering an innate Life's Task, acquiring deep skills through disciplined practice, and mastering the practical psychological dynamics of power and human nature.
Discovering Purpose and Enduring the Skill-Building Curve (2:03)
Greene observes that the most common struggle among young people is aimlessness caused by outward fixation on social media rather than inward reflection. Finding what he terms one's "Life's Task" requires an "archaeology of purpose"—excavating early childhood fascinations before external cultural pressures took hold, while identifying one's innate frame of intelligence, whether linguistic, bodily, or interpersonal. Greene stresses that true learning occurs only through execution and inevitable failure rather than passive planning, which often serves as a comforting narcotic to avoid the risks of reality.
For those in their twenties, Greene advises prioritizing the acquisition of two or three deep skills over money, fame, or network. He warns that initial skill development follows a flat, unrewarding trajectory before compounding into exponential career growth, as shown by creators like Lewis Howes and artists like 50 Cent. Enduring this slow curve demands rigorous focus and the discipline to decline promising opportunities in order to commit fully to a singular craft.
Digital Disconnection, Dopamine Desensitization, and Loneliness (54:01)
Greene highlights that modern culture suffers from a severe crisis of isolation, citing public health comparisons between chronic loneliness and smoking 15 cigarettes a day. He argues that digital interfaces and high-dopamine activities like compulsive scrolling and pornography desensitize the brain's reward pathways. Citing animal studies where impaired dopamine receptors eliminated basic survival initiative, Greene explains that digital overstimulation saps human ambition, leading to purposelessness and social atrophy.
To counter this malaise, Greene distinguishes painful, shame-driven loneliness from constructive solitude, which allows individuals to read, reflect, and develop unique capabilities away from societal static. He emphasizes that humans are physical animals whose cognitive health depends on tangible interaction, manual work, and live social environments where real friction and body language restore agency.
Confronting Human Nature: Narcissism, Envy, and Everyday Acting (46:54)
Greene maintains that self-mastery begins by acknowledging uncomfortable innate tendencies rather than projecting them onto others. He distinguishes destructive "deep narcissism" from "healthy narcissism," where figures like Steve Jobs channel self-absorbed focus into innovative work. Addressing envy—which psychologist Alfred Adler viewed as motivating up to 90% of human behavior—Greene cautions against masking resentment. Instead, he advises transmuting it into active emulation, gratitude, or the practice of "mitfreude" (shared joy), supported by William James's "as-if" principle of adopting generous behaviors until inner emotions align.
Human interaction also demands recognizing everyday social deception. Because social harmony prevents raw, unchecked honesty, individuals naturally perform different roles across settings. In high-stakes workplace environments, Greene advocates emotional composure, pointing out that unchecked outbursts signal incompetence. When navigating political workplaces, he advises assessing whether the organization values results or sycophancy, responding to workplace hostility by either focusing purely on excellence, employing measured deterrence against unethical peers, or exiting toxic systems.
Optics, Psychology, and the Imperative of Boldness (139:21)
Greene explains that power dynamics are governed by psychology and optics rather than clean statistical metrics. Because observers primarily judge by appearances, authority is communicated nonverbally: powerful actors project ease, maintain relaxed postures, and avoid over-explaining by speaking less than necessary. For those without innate confidence, Greene advises systematically grounding self-assurance in past accomplishments or using physical cues to summon states of authority.
When confronting feelings of helplessness, Greene highlights the rule to enter action with boldness. Timidity produces self-fulfilling failure, whereas decisive, visible commitment compels attention and respect from the surrounding environment. In broader political arenas, this psychological law explains the appeal of decisive leaders who present clear, uncompromising stances over fragmented messaging.
Greene grounds his philosophical perspectives in personal vulnerability, noting that his own low points—including surviving on minimal income in his twenties, facing rock bottom in his mid-thirties, and managing severe physical mobility loss following a stroke—reinforced the necessity of gratitude, resilience, and channeling difficult experiences into purposeful work.
精炼阅读摘要
作家Robert Greene在接受Steven Bartlett专访时指出，现代人普遍面临的迷茫、孤独与无力感，根源在于脱离现实行动与身体经验，深陷社交媒体所放大的比较与虚幻评价中。他主张个体必须正视人性中固有的自恋、嫉妒与演戏本能，尽早在实践中积累深层技能，并通过果断的行动与界限设定夺回生活的主导权。
寻找人生天职与摆脱空想 (2:03)
Greene指出，青年群体面临的最核心困境在于缺乏方向感。他在《Mastery》中强调，“人生天职”（Life's Task）是人一生最重要的决定。然而，过度受社交媒体驱动、不断向外注视他人认可，导致个体无法进行必要的内省。挖掘天职并非依赖快速技巧，而是需要像考古一样回溯童年经历，寻找那些能激起本能热情的领域，并建立“若不改变就会陷入绝境”的紧迫感。到了四十岁左右若仍未确立方向，转变的痛苦往往来自不得不褪去原有的声誉或舒适圈。
针对长期处于构思却不行动的拖延现象，Greene强调“在行动中学习”是通往精通的唯一途径。投入实践并在三个月内遭遇失败，所能提供的真实反馈远胜于两年的被动规划或昂贵的MBA课程。许多人的停滞表面上是害怕失败，实则是弗洛伊德所称的“害怕成功”及其伴随的责任与期待。正如Bartlett援引《被讨厌的勇气》所言，停留在“可能性的领域”仅能换取不承担现实风险的虚荣安慰，而真正的心理力量必须在具体限制与阻力中磨炼出来。
技能复利与深度的专注力 (20:00)
Greene主张技能是21世纪的核心硬通货，青年时期不应过早被金钱或短期声望诱惑。他举例建议，在纽约年薪15万美元的高盛基层职位与3万美元但能承担具体责任的初创公司之间，年轻人应选择后者以换取实操经验。二十多岁积累两到三项深层技能，到了三十岁便能融会贯通，形成独特的竞争优势。如同50 Cent在成名前经历低谷打磨手艺，高阶成就的初期往往平淡且缺乏即时回报，但随后会进入指数级的复利增长。
真正的精通依赖于极致的聚焦。Bartlett回顾Jony Ive对Steve Jobs的回忆指出，专注不仅是对无趣的事说不，更是对自己全心认可、极其兴奋的好点子说“不”，因为当前有且仅有一件最重要的核心任务。此外，根据Howard Gardner的多元智能理论，个体的智力形态各不相同。无论是逻辑、语言、人际，抑或是如Kobe Bryant所体现的身体运动智力，唯有将精力投入与自身先天智力相契合的领域，才能避免长期内耗并实现持续发展。
正视人性的嫉妒、孤独与表演本能 (46:54)
Greene认为，嫉妒是深植于灵长类演化过程中的本能反应，心理学家Alfred Adler曾提出克服自卑感并追求优越驱动了多达90%的人类行为。现代社交网络宛如放大嫉妒的核弹，人们常通过贬低他人来掩盖自身的自卑感。化解嫉妒的健康途径包括：坦承这一感受、将其转化为奋起直追的良性竞争（Emulation），或践行心理学家William James提出的“仿佛”（As-If）策略，主动表现出为他人成就感到高兴（Mitfreude）以促成心理转变。
针对现代社会的孤立现象，Greene援引数据指出长期孤独对健康的危害相当于每天吸15支烟。他严格区分了“孤独”（被动隔离、渴望外界认可）与“独处”（主动选择退后、沉淀思想与发展独特声音）。此外，人类社交依赖于适度的表演与策略，自幼年起语言便具备修饰功能。Greene强调，理解《权力的48条法则》中如“言所当言，适可而止”（Law 4）等原则，并非提倡恶意的被动攻击，而是认识到在职场中保持神秘感、控制情绪以及承认自身潜藏的自恋倾向，是维持社交运转和自我保护的客观规律。
感知主导的权力场与果断行动 (139:21)
在现实权力博弈中，人们几乎完全根据表象、肢体语言和心理感知做出评判，而非依据冷冰冰的量化数据。Greene观察到企业董事会在选拔CEO或选民投票时，往往看重候选人所投射出的掌控感与威严。有力量的人在会议中肢体自然舒展、目光专注，而缺乏安全感的人则频繁泄露焦虑。若缺乏自然底气，可通过William James的身体反馈理论，以坚定的举止和对过往成功经验的唤回，在身体层面激发真正的自信心。
当面对阻力或陷入被动时，Greene认为最重要的法则是“果断行动”（Enter Action with Boldness）。世界往往会给胆大而坚定的人让路，迟疑与顺从只会引发轻视并强化失败循环。面对职场中恶意的政治斗争或不公待遇，个体应根据环境的健康程度做出决策：在纯粹勾心斗角的环境中选择抽身退出；在必须留存时，则可通过保持冷峻专注或运用非对称的威慑手段，迫使掠夺性对手认识到攻击将带来惨痛代价。
抵抗意识形态狂热与回归肉身体验
面对战争、经济动荡与系统性混乱，公众由于无力感容易倒向提供简单答案的政治狂热或教条测试。Greene将“人类的愚蠢”定义为无法预见行动的深远后果、仅凭冲动的确信做决策。他批评非黑即白的阵营划分，并以自身经历说明现实问题存在复杂的灰色地带，一味依附政治部落寻求庇护虽然轻松，却会让人丧失独立的灵魂。他在预计2026年出版的《The Law of the Sublime》中呼吁，现代人应摆脱日常琐碎的偏执，重新对宏观宇宙与古老文明保持敬畏。
在个人生存层面，高多巴胺刺激（如网络色情与信息流）正严重削弱年轻人的现实行动意愿。研究表明多巴胺受体受损的动物连进食动力都会丧失。Greene强调，人是拥有激素、肉体与现实感知的高级动物，沉溺于虚拟屏幕会剥夺真实的情感深度与承受脆弱的能力。他本人在经历黄蜂螫伤引发的中风并失去部分运动能力后，深刻体会到正常行走的奇迹，并呼吁人们关掉屏幕、走出室内，通过亲身体验与实体行动重拾对生命的主导权。
Greene的论述基于其对历史模式与深层心理的长期观察，警示现代技术与文化正系统性地制造脆弱与孤立。他在回顾自身经历时坦言，年轻时的焦虑与自卑实则是迫使其拼搏的关键原料，若过早确信成功反而可能丧失动力。这一视角将对抗现代危机的终极解决方案寄托于个体的觉醒：唯有接纳人性的不完美、主动迎击现实阻力，才能建立真正的力量与意义。
Detailed notes — zh
## Background
本期内容由知名播客频道 The Diary Of A CEO（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2025 年 2 月 27 日发布在 YouTube 平台上。视频简介指出，曾撰写《权力的48条法则》等畅销巨作的人类心理与行为专家罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）第三次做客节目，深度揭示无处不在的隐秘操纵心理，探讨现代人如何在信息与人际泥潭中重新夺回对自我生活的掌控权。
## TL;DR
在长达两个半小时的深谈中，罗伯特·格林系统剖析了当代年轻群体面临的孤独流行病、意义危机与廉价多巴胺成瘾，指出通过“心智考古”找寻人生使命与深耕复合技能才是突围的关键。他直击人性中根深蒂固的自恋、嫉妒与表演本质，主张坦然接纳并转化这些幽暗驱动力，而非道德化自我欺骗。访谈还深入拆解了基于表象与非语言信号的权力博弈、情绪自控法则以及威慑反击策略，并结合格林中风后的身体极限与新书创作，呼吁大众在动荡时代重构批判性思考、保持果敢大胆，重拾对崇高与平凡生活的敬畏。
## Atmosphere & style
整场对话沉稳、冷峻且充满反思张力，既有对人性幽暗与马基雅维利式丛林法则的无情解剖，又流淌着饱经沧桑后的哲学温情与悲悯底色。主持人的真诚求索与格林沙哑缓慢却字字珠玑的表达相得益彰，当谈及中风后的躯体局限与十年后重获行走的愿景时，现场气氛由犀利的智识交锋悄然转向令人动容的生命敬畏，给听众带来既刺痛清醒又充满力量感的沉浸式体验。
## Bulletin
- [02:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=120s) 罗伯特·格林指出年轻人最核心的任务是找到“人生使命”，建议在二十多岁时抵制高薪螺丝钉职位的诱惑，专注打磨两到三项硬核实战技能，并在三十多岁通过跨界融合开创不可替代的独特事业。
- [01:10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4200s) 现代社会面临严峻的孤独流行病与意义危机，网络色情和短视频算法通过廉价高多巴胺刺激造成受体脱敏，不仅削弱了年轻人的行动力，更系统性地剥夺了建立真实深度浪漫连接的“崇高之爱”体验。
- [01:32:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5520s) 社会生存本质上是一场心理博弈与角色扮演，真正拥有权力者懂得“言简意赅”以营造权威与神秘感，并善用非语言姿态向外辐射笃定气场。
- [02:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9000s) 行动中的果决大胆（Boldness）是撕破平庸与阻力最有效的心理武器，世界往往会为坚定前行、信念强烈的人主动让出道路。
## Key takeaways
- [04:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=281s) 寻找人生使命（Life's Task）需要向内进行“心智考古”，挖掘童年被家庭与社会规训掩埋的原始狂热，而不是盲从社交媒体上的外部潮流。
- [14:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=859s) 拖延与过度筹备往往源于对成功的深层恐惧以及逃避现实责任的自欺心理，唯有在具体的限制和残酷阻力中实践试错，心智韧性才能真正成长。
- [20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1200s) 年轻时切忌走捷径或追逐虚荣，扎实掌握核心技能远胜于在大机构中充当拿高薪的边缘齿轮，复合技能积累是长期爆发的复利基石。
- [36:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2218s) 真正的专注意味着敢于对那些看似绝妙但会分流精力的好点子坚决说“不”，分散下注往往是由于缺乏内在驱动力而产生的新鲜感幻觉。
- [46:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2814s) 嫉妒源于人类通过比较来认识世界的进化本能；唯有勇敢承认自身的嫉妒，才能借由“竞争效仿”或“共情共喜”将其转化为自我提升的积极动力。
- [01:01:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3679s) 独处（Alone）是审视自我与激发深度思考的滋养之源，而孤单（Lonely）则是深陷无力与脱节感的痛苦状态，必须强迫自己去现实中反复锻炼“社交肌肉”。
- [01:06:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4010s) 心理态度本身就在创造现实：封闭收缩的态度会诱发盲视并招致对抗，而开放扩张的心态则能敏锐捕捉细微的转机并促成自我实现的预言。
- [01:13:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4410s) 色情制品通过机械化刺激对性与亲密关系进行祛魅，唯有卸下防御、敢于承受脆弱性的“崇高之爱”才能唤醒深层次的身心共振与附魅感。
- [01:24:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5057s) 人类本质上是非理性的社交动物，人人皆有自恋与演戏操纵的一面；坦然接纳自身阴暗面才能保持清醒，并在职场博弈中游刃有余地展现成熟门面。
- [01:32:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5520s) 寡言少语（言多必失）不仅能大幅降低犯错概率，更能向外界传递出极高的自控力和压迫性的权威感，从而主导群体互动。
- [01:41:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6100s) 面对挫败时要警惕“错不在我”的甩锅本能，主动将自身责任放大反思，才能掌握纠错的主动权并打破恶性循环。
- [01:43:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6229s) 面对有毒对手与不公待遇时，盲目退让只会招致变本加厉；必要时必须施展精准克制的“威慑战略”，以单次有力反击警告掠夺者。
- [01:56:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7000s) 真正的男子气概不在于盲从群体宣泄情绪，而在于保持独立思考、自我批判的内核硬度，不被非黑即白的二元道德教条所裹挟。
- [02:19:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8361s) 人类心理学第一法则是“永远以外表和表象评判人”，权力运作的核心在于管理光学形象、情绪共鸣以及非语言的气场投射。
- [02:25:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8721s) 运用威廉·詹姆斯的“仿佛策略”，通过先在生理姿态与行为上展现笃定自若，能反向重塑潜意识认知，唤醒真实的自信与权威气场。
- [02:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9000s) 无论是职场开创还是商务谈判，果断大胆（Boldness）能震慑犹豫的对手并抹平现实鸿沟，半吊子的试探只会暴露破绽招致失败。
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=0s) 人性的阴暗面与深层渴望：自恋、嫉妒与现代孤独
每个人都有自恋倾向与自我沉浸的一面，但几乎没有人愿意主动承认这一点。人们总习惯把自恋的标签贴在他人身上，比如推向唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）或埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk），以此撇清自己。然而，世界上根本没有圣人，每个人内心都有操纵他人的一面。关键在于能否富有成效地运用它。自恋分为具有严重破坏性的“深度自恋者”（deep narcissists）与“健康自恋者”（healthy narcissists），分清两者的差异能让人少走数年痛苦的弯路。作为洞悉权力法则与人类心理学的畅销书作家，罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）揭示了那些我们极力回避的人性真相：嫉妒根植于每个人的骨子里，追求“优于他人、胜过他人”的渴望驱动了人类90%的日常行为。如果不敢正视并承认这种丑陋的情感，它就会像一颗深埋在生活各层面的核弹，扼住人的咽喉并带来无尽的痛苦。此外，人们天生以外表取人，每个人都藏着幽暗的阴暗面，且每个人在社会中都是登台表演的演员——真正强大的人正是看透并善用了这些特质。
与此同时，现代社会正经历着空前的孤独危机。研究表明，长期孤立对健康的伤害相当于每天抽15支烟。对于这一困境，格林表现出强烈的同理心，因为他在年轻时也曾在人生的博弈中节节败退，一度深陷重度抑郁甚至产生自杀念头，而最终拯救他走出绝境的正是对人生方向的顿悟。
在深入正题前，主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）插播了一则诚恳的频道呼吁：后台数据显示有高达53%的常客观众尚未订阅节目。他向听众承诺，只要点击订阅支持这个免费平台，团队就会竭尽所能倾听反馈、邀请理想嘉宾，把节目品质推向更高水准。
---
### [02:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=123s) 人生最重要的抉择：在信息噪音中找寻你的“人生使命”
当被问及成千上万读者和追随者的私信中最集中的困惑是什么时，格林明确指出，最普遍的痛点尤其是二十多岁的年轻人面临的迷茫——他们完全不知道自己的人生该驶向何方，不知道自己的职业归宿究竟是什么，也就是他在《精通》（Mastery）一书中核心阐述的“人生使命”（Life's Task）。格林认为，认清自己因何而生、天赋与独特性何在，是人这一生中做出的“最重要决定”。一个人一生的充实感、幸福感与成就感，无一例外都发源于这一根本性的顿悟。
当代年轻人的迷失尤为严重，格林对此深表体谅。他认为当下的年轻人所处的时代远比他年轻时复杂混乱，其中科技与社交媒体的泛滥难辞其咎：
- **向内探索的缺失**：要认清自己是什么样的人、生来应当完成什么事业，需要高度的自我反思、深度自省和自我认知，这必须是一个完全“向内走”（go inward）的心智过程。
- **注意力被外部绑架**：社交媒体迫使年轻人整日盯紧外界——关注别人在做什么、别人在探讨什么、外界正在流行什么。在持续的外部喧嚣中，人会逐渐蜕变成“自己内心的陌生人”。
格林收到的邮件中有30%到40%都在倾诉这种无助：“罗伯特，这听起来很有趣，但我根本不知道我的人生使命是什么。”在二十多岁时体会不到生命的意义，会让日常的奔波彻底丧失支点，这种虚无感对年轻人而言是一种极度折磨的精神煎熬。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 寻找人生使命的心智路径
accDescr: 展示从外部噪音回归内心探索，挖掘童年原初热情的流程图
subgraph Trap["外界干扰与困境"]
A["社交媒体与外界噪音"] --> B["关注他人的潮流与评价"]
B --> C["迷失自我 / 成为内心的陌生人"]
end
subgraph InternalSearch["向内觉醒与心智考古"]
C --> D["萌生紧迫感 / 触底反弹"]
D --> E["屏蔽外部期待，转向内心"]
E --> F["心智考古：挖掘童年原始兴趣"]
end
subgraph Execution["探险与实践"]
F --> G["带着好奇心试错与历练"]
G --> H["锁定独特的人生使命 (Life's Task)"]
end
```
---
### [04:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=281s) 追寻使命的心智考古学：从童年线索与内在紧迫感启程
针对迷茫者如何找到人生靶向的策略问题，格林警告大家首先必须打破一种普遍的思维误区：现代人总幻想一切都是简单且线性的，以为寻找人生目标就像程序员“破解系统代码”（hacking the way to the truth）一样有捷径可走。然而现实人生是高度复杂的网状系统，绝不存在包治百病的单向公式。格林提炼了经由数百位顶尖大师验证过的核心路径：
首先，一切始于真正的“向内转”与不甘沉沦的痛苦感知。你必须发自内心地渴望改变，诚实地面对内心的不适与挫败感：“如果未来五年我继续这样浑浑噩噩，后果会有多严重？”这种触底反弹的紧迫感是催生行动的关键。在紧迫感之下，你必须做出决断：关闭外界的指手画脚，忽略社交媒体上的浮华，彻底屏蔽他人告诉你“你应该做什么”，转而审视自己内心那些非理性的、近乎无法抗拒的狂热兴趣。
格林以自身为例分享道，写作是他生命中永恒的底色，但更具体的一股原始冲动来自于他对古代历史与人类起源的痴迷。每当阅读非洲关于数万乃至十万年前人类起源的考古新发现时，他的大脑就会兴奋得飞速运转：“十万年前的我们与当下的我们何其相通，这直击我的内脏深处。”他强调每个人在两岁、三岁或五岁时，都曾拥有过某种类似的原初热爱，只是后来被家庭和社会的规训无情掩埋了。因此，寻找使命就像是一场“心智考古学”（mental archaeology），你必须拿起铲子一层层挖掘自己过去的遗迹、骨骼与化石，看清哪些事物曾让你双眼放光，哪些事物让你本能地厌恶。
在践行这一过程时，格林提出了两点极为关键的告诫：
- **二十岁初期的紧迫感陷阱**：在21、22岁时，年轻人往往因为精力充沛、容貌尚好、选择广阔而缺乏危机感。然而二十多岁的时间流逝得比想象中更快，若毫无规划地漫无目的游荡，一旦迈过30岁门槛，转型的阻力与代价将呈指数级增加。
- **将探索视为冒险而非苦差**：人若没有兴奋感就学不到任何实质本领。寻找使命绝不是按部就班地坐在书桌前记日志那种沉闷乏味的说教，而是一场激动人心的探索之旅。格林直言自己在二十多岁时四处旅行、尝试各种行当，过得比谁都尽兴；保持玩心、勇敢试错，同时用内在的罗盘指引航向，才能在不乏味的人生冒险中逐步让使命显影。
---
### [09:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=581s) 年龄增长对寻找使命的阻碍
当巴特利特追问随着年岁渐长，人是否会越来越难找回自我使命时，格林给出了肯定的回答。他指出，随着年龄的增长，人的心智模式会不可避免地变得更加僵化固执，人们往往会误以为自己早已知晓人生的所有答案，从而丧失了重塑自我的敏锐度与好奇心。很多年过中旬才给他来信倾诉的人，往往正是在这种思想固化中猛然发现自己陷入了更深层的泥沼。
### [10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=600s) 中年转折点的痛苦与大脑的真正潜能
当一个人年届四十甚至更年长时，站在人生的十字路口，往往会体会到远比二十几岁时更加剧烈的痛苦。这种痛苦源于一种挥之不去的悔恨感——觉得自己白白虚度了光阴，而要重回一条适合自己的轨道变得异常艰难。然而，Robert Greene 指出，成熟也有其独特且强大的另一面：到四十岁时，你已经积累了宝贵的技能和深刻的人生阅历，经历过生活的锤炼而不再脆弱；相比之下，二十一二岁的年轻人自以为无所不知，实际上对世界和人性一无所知，也未曾体验过真正刻骨铭心的苦难。如果能转变心态，将过去的经验与技能重新导向令人兴奋的新方向，中年转型完全能够成功。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 中年转型的阻力与突破路径
accDescr: 展示中年人在既有框架的沉重束缚与通过目标唤醒潜能之间的心理动态转换
subgraph 沉重束缚["现实阻力与沉没成本"]
A["既有身份/圈子/收入"] --> B["确定的痛苦 vs 未知的剥离"]
B --> C["大脑缺乏专注目标: 抑郁与向外怨尤"]
end
subgraph 突围路径["重构人生方向"]
D["梳理现实可行的新方向"] --> E["每晚专注投入2小时"]
E --> F["设定5年具体愿景"]
F --> G["神经机制激活: 重获希望与生命力"]
end
C -.->|心态重塑| D
```
对此，Steven Bartlett 提出了转型的现实代价：中年人往往已经在特定的职业（无论是律师、医生还是牙医）中建立了稳固的生活、人脉与声誉。想要改变，就必须经历痛苦的“剥离”（shedding）——剥离熟悉的人际圈、居住的城市、社会对你的认知，甚至是现有的收入来源。许多人宁可选择忍受“确定的痛苦”，也不愿面对追求未知时带来的残酷剥离。
Robert Greene 进一步从神经科学与人类心理的底层逻辑做出剖析：
- **宇宙中最精密的器官**：人脑拥有极其活跃的思维机制与数百亿神经连接，其复杂程度超越宇宙中的任何造物；这种器官天生需要高强度的挑战与专注。
- **痛苦与抑郁的真正来源**：步入中年后，当生活放缓、大脑缺乏可以全力投入的使命时，人往往陷入抑郁却不自知。大众习惯将这种痛苦归咎于外部环境、世界格局或政治纷争，却不愿向内审视：痛苦的根源正是自己未能充分利用与开发这具天赋大脑。
- **三十岁危机与突围实操**：Greene 经常遇到身陷困境的年轻人（如在快餐店或咖啡厅打工、背负养妻育儿压力的30岁男性）。他的指导极具现实主义：首先不能脱离生计谈理想，必须找到一个既感兴趣又能支撑家庭开支的领域；接着，每晚挤出两小时在互联网上深耕、考虑报读夜校，并为自己锚定一个清晰的“五年目标”。仅仅是确立这种可行性与方向感，许多人便能在瞬息之间摆脱消沉，重获蓬勃的生机与动力。
---
### [14:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=859s) 从空想到实践：践行中学习与“对成功的恐惧”
现实中存在大量陷入“长期空想”的人。Steven Bartlett 提到，无数人向他倾诉自己的计划，比如“我想做一档播客”，但一追问便会发现，他们已经空想了两年半之久，期间却从未迈出实质性的一步。Greene 引用其著作《精通》（*Mastery*）中的核心理念指出，中世纪的手艺人遵循“学徒—技工—大师”的严谨进阶体系，人脑唯有通过“践行中学习”（learning by doing）才能真正进化。
> “如果你突然跟我说你一直在构思一档播客，我会说：立刻动起来，明天就把播客录出来。哪怕搞砸了，你在这三个月失败里学到的东西，也远比你空想两年、或者背负巨额债务去读五年 MBA 学到的多得多。在做中学习，在失败中学习。”
针对人们为什么沉迷于过度规划与长期拖延，Greene 给出了直击要害的心理学剖析：
- **对失败与成功的双重恐惧**：表面上是害怕失败，深层其实是对“成功”的恐惧（Freud 曾探讨过的青少年典型心理）。一旦成功，你将不得不承担社会责任与声誉压力，下一次尝试更有可能遭遇溃败。
- **逃避责任的自欺机制**：如果一个人永远停留在“准备”阶段，把无所作为归咎于原生家庭、教育体制、经济贫困或伴侣，他就永远无需承担现实责任。抱怨“要是我当初有钱，我早就写出旷世小说了”只是一种逃避现实的自欺欺人。
---
### [16:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1019s) 击碎“可能性的温室”：以限制与抗阻铸就坚韧心智
针对拖延背后的心理诱惑，Steven Bartlett 结合《被讨厌的勇气》中的概念展开了探讨：许多人迷恋于“生活在可能性的王国”（the realm of possibility）。当你四处向朋友宣称“我要成为一名演员”时，你不仅能提前享受“追求上进者”的虚荣光环，而且在真正拿出作品之前，永远没有任何残酷的反馈来戳破这个美梦。这种不承受反馈的幻想空间，对很多人来说极度舒适。
Greene 深刻指出，这种虚妄的“可能性世界”本质上是一种精神麻醉剂。现实世界的运行法则完全相反——唯有面对限制（limits）与阻力（resistance），人类的大脑与能力才能真正成长：
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 限制与阻力下的心智强化机制
accDescr: 阐述从纯粹可能性跌入现实限制，通过肌肉抗阻般的训练获得真实韧性与生存能力的闭环
A["虚幻的‘可能性王国’<br/>（空想/麻醉剂）"] -->|直面客观现实| B["遭遇明确限制与坚硬阻力<br/>（如钢琴基础练习/水流阻力）"]
B --> C["高频试错与被拒<br/>（演员试镜99%遭遇淘汰）"]
C --> D["脱敏与认知迭代<br/>（不自我否定，专注于复盘）"]
D --> E["铸就坚韧心智与生存技能<br/>（Thick Skin）"]
```
- **阻力是成长的唯一起点**：如同初学钢琴必须从死板的琴键与指法限制开始练习，也如同游泳必须依靠水的阻力来增长肌肉；大脑若脱离具体规则与障碍的约束，就绝不可能形成真正的能力与力量。
- **世界的残酷与钝感力（Thick Skin）**：Greene 直言真实世界充满恶意与苛刻，个体必须磨砺出粗糙而坚韧的神经。以电影行业为例，演员的职业常态是“99%的无情拒绝”，且被拒原因往往是自身无法掌控的外貌等客观因素。平庸者在遭遇挫折后陷入“我毫无价值、世界太糟糕”的自我哀怜，而真正能够突围的强者则视被拒为常态，迅速调整并投入下一场战斗。生活技能与不可动摇的心智韧性，只能在一次次碰壁与试错的烈火中锻造而成。
### [20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1200s) 技能是21世纪的真正黄金
在探讨年轻一代应该追求什么目标时，针对金钱、名誉、人脉还是技能的选择，罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）明确指出：年轻人最不应该把金钱或名声作为目标，真正值得追求的是扎实、硬核的“真实技能”（true skills）。所谓真实技能，绝不是浅尝辄止地东学一年、西试一年，而是在计算机、艺术或任何特定领域内建立起深入的掌握力。格林描绘了一幅清晰的发展路径：如果在二十几岁时掌握了两到三项关键技能，等到三十岁左右，世界便会彻底向你敞开。届时，你能够将过去积累的技能跨界融合——例如将计算机技能与媒体制作或播客经验结合起来，创造出一种前所未有、完全属于自己独特风格的商业模式。
格林直言，受到金钱诱惑的人注定会迷失方向，因为金钱并非生活的本质。他提出了一个具体的假设选择：一边是高盛集团（Goldman Sachs）年薪15万美元的初级职位，另一边是某家创业公司年薪只有3万美元的工作。如果选择后者，在纽约布什威克（Bushwick）与人合租破旧昏暗的小公寓、过着挨饿拮据的生活，他依然建议毫不犹豫地选择那份3万美元的工作。因为在大机构里，新人只是数百名年轻齿轮中的一颗，很难承担真正的核心责任；而在小团队的实战中，你必须亲力亲为、担负重任，由此学到的生存与实战技能将远胜高薪带来的浮名。
在二十几岁的人生初期，物质生活的匮乏完全是可以承受的。格林回忆起自己在1984年旅居伦敦的贫困岁月：当时他年仅25岁，刚开始一份每周薪水仅约30英镑甚至更少的工作。他和当时的女友穷困潦倒，餐桌上唯一的食物就是大头菜与花椰菜，“芝士烤花椰菜”（cauliflower cheese）成了维持温饱的日常主菜。格林借此强调，年轻时的身体和意志足以扛过物质的艰苦，而换取到的学习和技能积累才是终身受用的资本。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 技能积累与职业发展路径对比
accDescr: 对比浅层追求高薪与深耕复合技能在青年时期的不同发展路径与最终结果。
subgraph HighSalary ["陷阱路径：短期高薪"]
A1["入职大机构（如高盛 $150k）"] --> A2["沦为螺丝钉 / 缺乏核心实权"]
A2 --> A3["技能单一 / 失去长期创造力"]
end
subgraph SkillFirst ["黄金路径：深耕技能"]
B1["实战平台（小团队/创业公司）"] --> B2["忍受早期物质匮乏 / 承担实战重任"]
B2 --> B3["20多岁打磨出2至3项硬核技能"]
B3 --> B4["30多岁跨界融合 / 开启独特创业道路"]
end
```
---
### [22:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1370s) 拒绝速成捷径：创业者的长远幸福观
针对许多年轻人缺乏对漫长人生维度的感知、急于在社交平台炫耀成功而试图走捷径的现状，格林引用了史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）的例子。乔布斯从未被金钱驱使，他真正的动力是设计出世界上最极致、最美丽的科技产品；金钱只是他在正确赛道上做到极致后的副产品，最终让他成为了世界首富。格林分享自己的经历也是如此，他从未把发财作为动力，只想专注于写作、取得成就并享受乐趣，而如今财富自然随之而来。他断言，如果一个人在年轻时专注于掌握核心能力并在35岁前创立属于自己的利基业务，其长期收益将是昔日高盛职位的数倍。成为自主掌控命运的企业家，是每个人在职业生涯中能追求的最高形态。
史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）随后表达了共鸣与疑虑，提到埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）曾将创业形容为“一边嚼着碎玻璃，一边凝视深渊”。创业往往伴随着极大的痛苦、混乱与不确定性，甚至有时会对那些无需承担发薪压力和运营混乱的基层员工产生微妙的羡慕。面对这种现实阵痛，格林指出解决之道在于彻底重构对“快乐与幸福”的定义框架：
- **短期即时视角**：如果将快乐局限在当下与眼前，任何痛苦都会让人难以忍受，极易中途放弃，从而重返安逸但平庸的轨道；
- **长期战略视角**：将幸福感锚定在长远目标的实现与个人潜力的绽放上。这种宏观视野能赋予人极强的“腾挪空间”（room to maneuver）与抗压韧性；
- **逆境锻造成果**：史蒂芬如今的成就正是当年没有为了躲避痛苦而转行去银行打工的结果；正视痛苦并将其转化为长远资产，才是摆脱平庸的唯一途径。
---
### [26:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1582s) 驾驭内心的阴暗面：避免被恶魔吞噬
对谈深入到成就者的内在驱动力层面。史蒂芬坦言，支撑自己一路走来的核心力量往往源于内心的“阴暗面”（dark side）——过去的自卑、耻辱感以及渴望被接纳的补偿心理。然而，这种力量也存在走火入魔的风险。史蒂芬分享了他身边一位极具声望的企业家的案例：该企业家同样因逃离贫困和耻辱的过往而功成名就，但如今每天仍近乎病态地工作18个小时，仿佛陷入了工作成瘾，虽然对方宣称自己很快乐，但那究竟是真实的幸福，还是在通过疯狂奔跑来逃避内心的阴暗创伤？
格林对此深有体会，并分享了自己曾担任已破产服装品牌 American Apparel 董事会成员的内幕经历。该品牌创始人多夫·查尼（Dov Charney）是一位极具天赋与魅力的商业奇才，从洛杉矶的一间不起眼小店起步，一手缔造了庞大的时尚帝国。然而，查尼内心被一股无法遏制的“心魔”所掌控：他永远不知停歇，疯狂追求建更多的楼、在全球开更多的门店、激进扩张杠杆。最终，当2007年金融危机爆发且公司刚刚完成上市时，沉重的债务压垮了整套体系，导致公司最终破产崩盘。
格林总结道，如果一个人被金钱、名声或洗雪耻辱的欲望完全操纵，那股心魔就会掐住你的咽喉，逼迫你每天透支运转18小时，直到你精疲力竭、满盘皆输。成功往往容易让人产生“点石成金”的虚妄幻觉（Midas touch），导致思维陷入僵化狭隘的单向通道（singular direction），最终丧失真正的创造力与持续学习的能力。驾驭阴暗面的关键在于拥有清醒的自我认知与明确的边界感，唯有保持开放与自由的心智，才不会让过去的阴暗面反噬自己的人生。
### [30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1800s) 专注与精通：为何分散精力注定难以成大器
许多创业者和年轻人在事业起步时往往难以抑制无限扩张的冲动，例如在洛杉矶拥有五家分店时，不应盲目无休止地扩张，而应深耕现有产品、提升创意，避免被金钱、名声和虚荣心吞噬。史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）顺着这一话题谈到当代人普遍面临的困境：究竟应该专注眼前的核心事务，还是不断被外界的新机会分流？在追求“精通”（Mastery）的旅程中，专注到底有多重要？如今有太多年轻人热衷于同时做多件事，既涉足加密货币，又经营美发品牌，还兼顾其他副业。
罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）对此深有感触。他分享了自己正在指导的一位老友儿子的真实案例：这位年仅20岁的年轻人极度富有且成就斐然，但他把自己分散在加密货币、自媒体、体育和健身等多个完全不相干的领域中，除了“赚钱和拓展人脉”之外，根本找不出一条能贯穿所有项目的核心主线（through line）。在当今信息爆炸、可能性过剩的时代，这种做法极具诱惑力，但人的大脑和生命机制并非为此而生。格林强调，一切追求必须从内心深处的真正热爱出发，绝不能从外部世界的诱惑、他人正在做的事或看起来光鲜亮丽的潮流开始，否则一个人将在迷茫中虚度数年。格林试着引导这位年轻人去发掘内心真正的兴奋点，最终发现他对好莱坞名流圈充满热情，因此电影制片人或许正是能将融资、跨界人脉与公关连接在一起的聚焦核心。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 专注与分散的核心逻辑
accDescr: 对比由内而外的专注路径与受外部诱惑驱动的分散路径
subgraph InternalDrive ["由内而外的精通路径"]
A["发掘内心真正的热爱"] --> B["确立核心主线与聚焦点"]
B --> C["持续深耕 7-12 年"]
C --> D["积累深层技能与认知壁垒"]
end
subgraph ExternalLure ["外部诱惑驱动的盲目分散"]
E["追逐外部风口 (加密货币/副业)"] --> F["精力分散且缺乏底层关联"]
F --> G["遇到阻力便陷入厌倦"]
G --> H["项目停滞与长期迷茫"]
end
```
- **内生驱动与外在诱惑的本质区别**：若顺从内心志向，一个人可以在一个领域沉浸七年、八年乃至十二年而不觉厌烦；但若出于赚钱目的违心选择专业（例如本想当作家却为了谋生硬去读法学院），即使凭借意志力撑过一两年，后续也会因缺乏内在联结而动力骤降、专注力彻底崩溃。
---
### [33:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=1984s) “邻人草更青”的陷阱与投资人的严厉棒喝
史蒂文提到自己观察身边亲人的经历：每当开启一项新事业并不可避免地陷入瓶颈时，人们总会转头看向马路对面的其他人，觉得别人炒加密货币或做其他项目似乎赚得轻松又快乐，误以为“邻家的草总是更绿”（the grass is greener）。这种幻觉会诱使人们开辟第二条战线，结果导致原本的主营业务受到严重拖累。史蒂文指出，在没有像埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）那样拥有海量资本的前期积累阶段，人生的关键在于保持绝对专注以积累核心资源与深层技能，唯有在拥有足够壁垒之后，才有资本分散下注。
史蒂文还坦诚地回忆起自己18岁时的一段难忘经历。当时他刚拿到第一位非常成功的投资人的注资，不久后自以为有了新颖的绝妙想法，便兴奋地给投资人发邮件提议开拓另一条业务线。结果那位资深投资人在回信中毫不留情地给了他一记当头棒喝，直截了当地警告他：如果在年轻时不能百分之百专注于一件事，他就永远不可能取得成功，更会彻底剥夺自己沉淀深厚专业技能的机会。
---
### [35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2100s) 盲目扩张的教训与虚幻的嫉妒：奥纳西斯的痛苦底色
格林高度赞同有经验的导师对年轻人的重要性，认为及早听懂这种警醒能让人少走数年弯路。他回忆道，在2007年服装品牌 American Apparel 即将上市、自己即将进入董事会之际，曾有一位智者私下告诫他：“罗伯特，请一定要盯紧创始人多夫·查尼（Dov Charney），确保他不会盲目地无节制扩张；务必让品牌保持专注，唯有聚焦核心，他才能真正成功。”虽然格林当时自认缺乏足够的魄力去彻底说服多夫，但商业历史反复验证了这一规律。
谈到人们因看到同龄人轻松赚大钱而产生的嫉妒，格林直言这完全是虚妄的“胡扯”（bullshit）。人们总爱在社交媒体上营造无比光鲜的假象，但实际生活绝非外界想象的那样幸福。格林援引自己在《人性法则》（*The Laws of Human Nature*）中记录的船运大亨亚里士多德·奥纳西斯（Aristotle Onassis）为例：
- **世纪船王的痛苦真相**：20世纪60年代的奥纳西斯富可敌国，坐拥豪华游艇，并迎娶了前美国总统约翰·肯尼迪的遗孀杰奎琳·肯尼迪（Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis），在外界看来是无可挑剔的人生赢家；
- **光环背后的真实处境**：杰奎琳在自传中证实，奥纳西斯实际上是一个极其刻薄、内心极度痛苦凄惨的人；外界所盲目嫉妒的对象，其真实处境往往远逊于表面展示的形象，因此绝不应让嫉妒左右自己的人生抉择。
---
### [36:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2218s) 乔布斯式的终极专注：敢于向绝妙的想法说“不”
史蒂文分享了前苹果首席设计官乔纳森·伊夫（Jony Ive）谈及史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）的一段经典访谈。伊夫曾感慨，乔布斯是他所见过的全天下最极致专注的人。专注并不是周一早上随口立下的宏愿，而是时时刻刻审视当下：“每一分钟，我们为什么在讨论这个？这是否是我们当前最该解决的事？”
乔布斯衡量专注的独特标准给伊夫带来了巨大震撼：
> “乔布斯曾问我：‘你今天对多少件事说了不？’我当时为了让他放心，便列举了几件自己拒绝掉的事。但乔布斯一眼就看穿了，因为那些事情本身我压根就毫无兴趣，拒绝它们根本算不上真正的牺牲。真正的专注，是当你从骨子里深信某件事是一个绝妙无比的念头、甚至每天早晨醒来脑海中都在盘旋着它时，你依然能够狠下心对它坚决说‘不’，因为你必须全神贯注于当下最重要的那件事。”
格林对此深表共鸣，并称之为“专注的殿堂”。格林以自己的创作困境举例坦言，尽管他能推掉去印度或埃及的高薪演讲、拒绝繁杂的电视节目合作，但在撰写手头的新书时，一旦写作遇到阻滞，往往就是因为自己偏离了核心要义。格林总结道，专注必须精细下沉到事业或品牌的微观沙砾之中——你必须彻底弄明白自己究竟在表达什么、究竟想要达成什么核心成果，剥离所有细枝末节的杂音，才能在微观层面上实现真正的掌控。
### [40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2400s) 专注的内在雷达与复利沉淀：成功背后的漫长蛰伏
保持深度专注的过程往往伴随着痛苦与自省。Robert Greene 分享了自己在写作时的切身体会：有时他会连续几个星期沉迷于偏离主题的细枝末节，直到脑海中那个灵敏的“内在雷达”发出刺耳警报——“你跑偏了，赶紧滚回来”。纠正方向虽然折磨，但一旦思维重新咬合、产生顿悟，随之而来的满足感也是无与伦比的。面对当今年轻人看着同龄人纵情玩乐而自己却不得不苦熬学习的焦虑，Robert 建议必须拉长视角：“你的大脑会在几年后给你丰厚的回报。那些看似玩得很嗨的朋友，三年后可能会在烂工作里走下坡路，而你则在稳步上升。”
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 技能积累与复利回报发展阶段
accDescr: 展示技能积累阶段的平缓期与爆发期之间的对比关系
subgraph Phase1 ["前几年：蛰伏期（极度孤独且缺乏正向反馈）"]
A["高强度专注投入"] --> B["枯燥的技能磨砺"]
B --> C["自我摸索与频繁碰壁"]
end
subgraph Phase2 ["转折点：复利拐点"]
C --> D["内在能力完成质变"]
end
subgraph Phase3 ["爆发期：指数级上升"]
D --> E["公众可见的光鲜成功"]
E --> F["大众误以为的'一夜暴富/成名'"]
end
```
Steven Bartlett 对此深有共鸣。他回忆起自己创办播客的前三年，每周日晚上独自躲在壁橱里录音，数据完全是一条死平的直线，根本没人收听。直到第四、第五年，收听曲线才陡峭攀升。那前三年的寂寞“学徒期”看似毫无回报，实则是掌握表达、理解听众偏好、淬炼访谈技巧的关键阶段。大多数人之所以失败，正是因为在没有掌声和下载量的前期失去了专注，试图寻找并不存在的“一夜成名”捷径。Robert 指出，像 Lewis Howes、Chris Williamson 和 Jay Shetty 等如今顶尖的播客创作者，无一例外都经历过数年毫无声息的蛰伏。
大众往往只看得见名利场表面的光环。Robert 以他在合著《第50条法则》（*The 50th Law*）期间与说唱巨星 50 Cent（Curtis Jackson）朝夕相处的经历为例：外人只艳羡嘻哈巨星的生活方式、排场和女人，但没有人比 50 Cent 更自律、更拼命。在成名之前，他经历过数不尽的艰辛与挫败——身中九枪险些丧命、被唱片公司扫地出门，但他凭借不可思议的毅力从最底层一步步重新爬起，最终才被 Eminem 发掘。“人们从不关注那些布满血泪的硬核磨砺，我们只看到成功，并轻易被成功的光彩所诱惑。”
- **播客前期的平线积累**：Steven Bartlett 在壁橱录音的前三年几乎没有任何数据增长，核心价值全在于磨炼基本功与表达能力。
- **同行印证**：Lewis Howes、Chris Williamson、Jay Shetty 等一线创作者起步阶段同样经历过漫长的“完全无声期”。
- **50 Cent 的真实磨难**：身中九枪、被厂牌解约弃用、几近丧命，历经极度漫长的底层挣扎才获得突破。
---
### [43:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2604s) 多元智能理论：找到大脑天然运转的轨道
很多人在人生中迷失方向，根本原因在于用单一的标准定义智慧。Steven 提及心理学家霍华德·加德纳（Howard Gardner）在《智能的结构》（*Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences*）中提出的多元智能理论，该理论打破了传统学术智商的垄断，将智能划分为逻辑数学智能、语言智能、人际智能、空间智能和身体运动智能等不同维度。Robert 对此深表赞同，并尖锐地指出，社会往往把“智能”狭隘地局限在写代码、做高数或拿名校博士学位上，但这是一种严重的偏见：在身体运动智能层面上，篮球巨星科比·布莱恩特（Kobe Bryant）所展现的卓越才智，丝毫不亚于阿尔伯特·爱因斯坦（Albert Einstein）。
父母常常因为这种认知偏见而毁掉孩子的一生：当孩子展现出芭蕾或体育天赋时，一心想培养“学术巨人”的家长往往会嗤之以鼻，强行扭转孩子的方向，从而为悲剧埋下伏笔。正确的做法是敏锐察觉孩子属于哪种智能框架并顺水推舟，因为顺应天性才能激发出真正的热情。Robert 分享了自己的亲身体验：他从小就对“词语”着魔，五岁时就会对“柠檬”这个词为什么能代表现实中的物体而陷入沉思，语言智能成了他一生的母题；相反，他在机械动手能力上极其糟糕，即便他的父亲在这方面是个不折不扣的天才，这种反差直接打破了简单的“基因决定论”。
了解自己的核心智能类型是确立人生方向的最关键一步。以“人际智能”为例，如果一个人擅长共情、喜欢与人互动，却被困在一份孤立无援的工位上，必然会痛苦不堪；而一旦看清自己的人际特长，职业道路就有成百上千种可能——不仅限于社工，还可以成为卓越的团队领导者、管理者或心理学者。
| 智能类型 | 典型代表领域 / 人群 | 核心能力表现 |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **逻辑数学智能** | 科学家、数学家、程序员 | 抽象思维、逻辑推理、复杂问题分析 |
| **语言智能** | 作家、律师、诗人 | 对文字敏感、符号拆解、语言表达与煽动力 |
| **身体运动智能** | 运动员（如科比）、舞者、外科医生 | 身体精准控制、肌肉记忆、肢体空间协调 |
| **空间智能** | 建筑师、艺术家、飞行员 | 三维想象、几何直觉、空间布局把控 |
| **人际智能** | 领导者、心理学家、教师 | 高度共情、人际洞察、团队凝聚与沟通 |
---
### [46:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2814s) 嫉妒的生物学根源与自卑心理防御
很多人无法长期专注于自身成长，往往是被一种致命的情绪所反噬——嫉妒（Envy）。Robert 将其形容为“人类最丑陋的情感”，因为嫉妒的本质是一场屈辱的自我认输：它逼迫你承认自己低人一等，承认别人比你更出色、更年轻、更好看，或者伴侣更优秀、孩子更成材。奥地利心理学家阿尔弗雷德·阿德勒（Alfred Adler，弗洛伊德的弟子）早在20世纪20年代就提出，追求优越感、渴望超越他人是驱动人类90%行为的核心动力，而感受到自身劣势则会催生出剧烈的“自卑情结”（inferiority complex）。
从进化生物学来看，嫉妒深深植根于灵长类动物的大脑之中。科学实验早已证明，如果给笼子里的一只黑猩猩分发香蕉或葡萄，而对另一只置之不理，被忽视的黑猩猩立刻会投去充满恶意的冷眼（stink eye）。人类的大脑本质上是一台通过“对比”来运转的机器：我们通过比对事物间的差异来认识世界（例如将野兽与安全生物区分开来）；而当这种对比机制被安放在高度复杂的社会化群居属性中时，我们便身不由己地陷入无休止的人际比较，永远在觊觎他人所拥有的东西。
人类对嫉妒的恐惧甚至塑造了远古的生存法则。在三万年前以及延续至近现代的狩猎采集部落中，嫉妒始终是引发群体分裂乃至杀戮的重大威胁。当某个猎人获得额外赏赐时，部落其他人会极度愤怒，以至于得奖者必须立刻将礼物分给众人以平息怨愤，否则极有可能招来杀身之祸。在当代文明社会中，由于没有人愿意公开承认自己“技不如人”，大脑便发展出扭曲的自我防御机制：当看到同行卖出更多书、过得更风光时，人们绝不会承认对方文笔更好，而是会自我安慰地嘲讽道：“那家伙根本不配拥有这一切，他不过是个投机取巧的三流文人（hack）罢了。”
- **阿德勒心理学洞见**：人类绝大多数行为都受渴望获得优越感驱动，嫉妒是对个人价值自尊的直接刺痛。
- **动物与进化根源**：从黑猩猩分配葡萄实验到远古狩猎采集社会，大脑内置的“对比学习机制”与高度社会化结合，导致比较与嫉妒成为本能。
- **部落生存法则**：原始部落成员获得礼赠必须散财于众，以防嫉妒引发恶性暗杀。
- **心理防御机制**：通过污名化对方的成功（如贬低其为“hack”）来回避直面自身的劣势。
### [50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3000s) 承认嫉妒：社交媒体时代的“核弹”与心理游戏
罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）深入剖析了人类在面对嫉妒时常常自我欺骗的心理防卫机制。人们习惯于合理化自己的嫉妒情绪——比如当看到畅销书作家大获成功时，心里会暗自嘀咕：“他们只是迎合大众胃口罢了。我的书一百年后还会有人读，而他们的书五年后就没人看了。”通过把对方贬低为“劣等”，人们回避了承认自己不如别人的现实，并坚称自己绝没有嫉妒。格林直言，社交媒体就像一枚“嫉妒的核弹”：六十年前，一个人根本不可能知道远方大学同学或邻居赚了多少钱、生活有多幸福；而如今，屏幕上随时都在推送所有人令人艳羡的生活轨迹——奢华的度假、孩子们进入顶尖名校、光鲜亮丽的日常。这种无休止的比较制造出海量的嫉妒，不仅渗透到个人日常生活中，甚至已经侵蚀了政治体系，但几乎没有人愿意公开承认这一幽暗情绪的存在。
格林认为，克服嫉妒的第一步也是最关键的一步，就是勇敢地向自己承认“我嫉妒了”。他毫无保留地坦白了自己对弟子瑞安·霍利迪（Ryan Holiday）的微妙心理：“有时我真的会嫉妒瑞安·霍利迪。他比我年轻整整三十岁，但在我还没写出第一本书的年纪，他写的书就已经比我多了；他拥有美满的家庭、漂亮的宅邸，事业极其成功。是的，有时我确实会感到嫉妒，我承认。”格林指出，如果不诚实面对这种情绪，它就会在内心深处发酵、溃烂，最终演变成极其丑陋的恶意。而一旦敢于承认，理智便能介入其中：格林会提醒自己，瑞安配得上所有荣誉与成功，因为他工作极度勤奋、品行正直、充满道德底线。接纳了最初那一丝“自愧不如”的刺痛感后，人才能由衷地为他人的成就感到由衷的喜悦。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 转化嫉妒情绪的两种心理路径
accDescr: 展示面对他人成功时，走向自欺发酵与走向积极转化的两种截然不同的心理历程。
A["觉察到他人的卓越成功"] --> B{"是否诚实承认嫉妒？"}
subgraph PathBad ["自欺发酵的负面路径"]
B -- "否认并合理化" --> C["贬低对方/阿Q心态<br/>'他们只是迎合大众'"]
C --> D["嫉妒暗中溃烂发酵"]
D --> E["幸灾乐祸 (Schadenfreude)<br/>心理扭曲与敌意"]
end
subgraph PathGood ["积极转化的升华路径"]
B -- "坦然承认自卑感" --> F["认知重塑：对方实至名归"]
F --> G["竞争效仿 (Emulation)<br/>激发自我提升动力"]
F --> H["共情共喜 (Mitfreude)<br/>运用'仿佛'策略体会高尚"]
end
```
### [52:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3137s) 将嫉妒转化为动力：竞争效仿与共情共喜
探讨如何建设性地转化嫉妒时，格林引用了自己在《人性法则》（The Laws of Human Nature）中阐述的应对策略。第一种策略是“竞争效仿”（Emulation）：不要让嫉妒沦为内耗的烂泥，而应将其作为催人奋进的马刺；借由那一瞬间的劣势感，点燃自身的斗志与求胜欲，鞭策自己投入成倍的努力，去追赶甚至超越对方。
另一种更为深刻的心理转变，则是用意大利哲学家尼采（Friedrich Nietzsche）提出的概念“Mitfreude”（共情共喜）来替代“Schadenfreude”（幸灾乐祸）。人类容易在他人遭遇不幸时暗自窃喜，但“Mitfreude”要求人们逆向思维——在他人的快乐与成功中体会到喜悦。针对很多人抱怨“我根本做不到”的心态，格林引述了著名心理学家威廉·詹姆斯（William James）的“仿佛策略”（As-if strategy）：哪怕最初心有芥蒂，也要试着表现得“仿佛自己真的在为对方的成功感到由衷快乐”。行为和心理暗示会重塑情感体验，当你真正能够为他人的卓越而喝彩时，内心不仅不会萎缩，反而会感受到一种灵魂被拔高的崇高感与尊严感，从而彻底打开自己的情绪格局。
### [54:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3241s) 《权力的48条法则》长销不衰的秘密：动荡时代下的无力感
斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）将话题转向格林的代表作《权力的48条法则》（The 48 Laws of Power）。绝大多数畅销书在面世后各领风骚三五载便归于沉寂，但这本出版于1998年的作品至今依然在全球范围内疯狂热销，且近六年的销量甚至攀升到了历史巅峰。巴特利特推测，这是否意味着大众正经历着前所未有的无力感，而这本书恰好提供了对抗失控感的一剂良方？格林完全赞同这一针见血的观察。他谦逊地表示，该书持续爆发的生命力并不单纯归功于其写作才华，而更多映射出整个时代的集体困境。
年轻一代接连遭遇了2008年全球金融海啸、新冠疫情（COVID-19）的严峻冲击以及剧烈的经济震荡。在这个看似秩序倾覆、充满无序与混乱的时代，人们深感自身的渺小与无力。相较于1998年成书时相对稳定的社会大环境，当下社会充斥着更加极端的迷茫与不确定性。《权力的48条法则》以一种冷峻而清醒的视角揭示了现实运行的底层逻辑，为那些在失序环境中苦苦挣扎、渴望重掌生活主动权的人们，提供了一套能够带来安全感与掌控力的行事指南。
### [55:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3342s) 孤独流行病：青年男性的意义危机与社交技能退化
对话随后触及当今社会触目惊心的孤独与精神危机。巴特利特列举了严峻的统计数据：当下孤独感对人体健康的损害相当于每天抽15支烟；独居率与无助感创下历史新高；年轻人在危机时刻越来越找不到可以倾诉的依靠；除化学物质成瘾外，社交媒体成瘾也愈演愈烈。年轻女性普遍陷入容貌与生活的焦虑比拼，而年轻男性则深陷自杀率飙升的绝境，自杀已成为夺走年轻男性生命的最大杀手之一。面对这种普遍的无力、孤独与漫无目的，格林强调，虽然人们倾向于将其归咎于个人，但这本质上是一场深刻的文化系统性危机。
- **不良文化价值的导向**：现代文化大肆推崇转瞬即逝的虚名与流量（fame and celebrity），却几乎从不提倡脚踏实地的自律与立足所需的硬技能，导致许多年轻男性感到自身毫无价值与方向，找不到存在的意义。
- **现实社交“肌肉”的萎缩**：回溯自己在20世纪70年代二十多岁时的经历，格林感慨那时没有智能手机，想要结识异性就必须亲自去酒吧、俱乐部等线下场所，直面被当面拒绝的残酷与尴尬。在真实的互动中，他学会了观察微表情、体察非语言沟通，并强迫自己跳出自我中心去理解女性的思维与诉求。
- **滑屏时代的社交退化**：当代年轻人只需指尖在屏幕上不断滑动（“swipe swipe swipe”），物理上完全回避了现实接触。缺乏现场碰撞的锻炼，社交能力不可避免地像肌肉一样退化萎缩；而越是不擅长面对面社交，走出家门的门槛就越高，最终一步步坠入越来越孤独闭塞的深渊。
格林动情地透露，自己年轻时也曾经历过极其痛苦低落、甚至萌生自杀念头的晦暗岁月，因此他能够完全共情如今年轻人的挣扎，绝不会以居高临下的姿态对他们横加指责。他认为个体固然需要寻找突围之道，但首先应当客观看待这种状态——身处孤独，并不天然意味着一件不可挽回的坏事。
### [01:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3600s) 独处的价值与锻炼“社交肌肉”
孤独在现代社会往往带有一种强烈的耻辱感与禁忌色彩，人们普遍觉得“感到孤独”或“孤身一人”是一件糟糕透顶的事情，并为此感到羞愧。然而，罗伯特·格林指出，在生命中学会偶尔独处是极其重要的能力。只有在独处时，人才能沉淀下来审视内心、认清自我，并拥抱那些让自己显得与众不同的特质。如果一个人对孤独充满耻耻感、一刻也无法忍受自己待着，他就永远不可能获得这种深度反思的能力；而恰恰是这种能力，才能真正孕育出硬核技能并带来日后的成功。
但与此同时，格林强调也不能走向另一个极端——彻底自我封闭。《权力的48条法则》中的第18条法则正是“切勿建造堡垒自保，隔离是危险的”（Do not build fortresses to protect yourself; isolation is dangerous）。孤立绝不是防御手段，它会切断获取关键信息、结交盟友以及把握机遇的通道。格林把社交比作去健身房增肌：正如一个人必须逼自己去举铁才能变得强壮，他也必须强迫自己放下手机、走出房间，去与真实的人接触，去经历现实世界的互动而非虚拟幻象。如果一个人能像每月去健身房10次那样，强迫自己每个月进行10次真实社交，他的“社交肌肉”就会变得越来越强大，在人际交往中也会重拾从容与自信。
- **法则警示**：第18条法则告诫世人，孤独筑起的防御高墙只会变成囚禁自己的监狱，让人失去外界的反馈回路与生存资源。
- **社交训练**：社交能力并非天赋，而是可塑的“肌肉”，唯有脱离屏幕、置身于真实的实体人际交往中才能反复强化。
---
### [01:01:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3679s) 孤单（Lonely）与独处（Alone）的本质区别
斯蒂芬·巴特利特提出疑问：“孤单”（Lonely）与“独处”（Alone）显然是完全不同的心理状态，两者的分水岭究竟在哪里？格林解释道，人类是天生的社会性动物，“孤单”是一种痛苦的匮乏感，源于你觉得自己无法与他人建立深层连接，甚至产生一种“没有人喜欢我、没有人尊重我”的自卑与无力感；而“独处”对他而言则是一种莫大的解脱与享受。在独处时，人不必违心应酬那些愚蠢乏味、面目可憎的人，不必附和自己厌恶的观点，可以安心地读一本好书，沉浸在自己的思想世界里，“做自己想做的怪人，这是一种多大的释怀！”
为了说明缺乏独处能力的病态现象，格林分享了一段在飞机上的见闻：他曾观察过邻座的一位年轻女性，当时飞机正飞越大洋上空，四周空旷寂静，但那位年轻女孩整个人却陷入一种几乎发狂的焦虑之中。她发了疯似地试图连上机上Wi-Fi，拼命收发电子邮件和短信，一秒钟也无法停歇。格林直言，自己当时能清晰感受到她内心的绝望感——对她来说，独自一人面对自己就是一场彻头彻尾的噩梦。人当然不能离群索居，但如果一个人的内心从未有过片刻宁静，他就永远无法向内探寻，无法听见内心深处那个微弱而真实的声音，也就永远搞不清自己独特的竞争优势究竟是什么。
---
### [01:04:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3855s) 跌入谷底与《权力的48条法则》：人生意义如何驱散绝望
当巴特利特问起格林年轻时几度想要自杀的灰暗岁月究竟是如何熬过来时，格林回忆起生命中最幽暗的时光。当时他身边有一位非常理解并支持他的女友，这让他没有完全陷入孤立无援的绝境；更关键的是，他心底一直有一个微弱的声音在回响：“罗伯特，你是个思维很怪异的人，你从高中起就和别人格格不入。但这种怪异恰恰说明你有着独特的视角，而且你在写作上拥有才华。某一天机会一定会来的，千万别放弃，继续坚持。”
这种挣扎一直持续到他三十五六岁。当时身处意大利的格林正处于人生的最低谷，近乎走投无路。就在那时，他遇到了一位名叫尤斯特·埃尔弗斯（Joost Elfers）的图书策划人。埃尔弗斯随口问他是否有写书的想法，格林至今忆及那一刻仍激动得几乎落泪——他体内的某种机制瞬间被点燃了。他当场即兴发挥，将脑中积累的所有历史故事与权力斗争的构思一股脑倾倒出来，这就是后来《权力的48条法则》的雏形。埃尔弗斯当场兴奋不已，承诺预付稿酬让他撰写提案，并资助他写作期间的生活费。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 从绝望低谷到人生转折的心理升华模型
accDescr: 展示罗伯特·格林如何将低谷期的创伤与恶意转化为著作养分的心理历程。
subgraph S1["痛苦积累期"]
A["经历恶劣变态的上司"] --> B["政治倾轧与职场操控"]
B --> C["人生至暗时刻与轻生念头"]
end
subgraph S2["核心转折点"]
C --> D["遇见出版人 Joost Elfers"]
D --> E["确立人生使命（Purpose）"]
end
subgraph S3["升华输出期"]
E --> F["将所有苦难作为素材"]
F --> G["《权力的48条法则》问世"]
end
```
那一刻，格林的世界“由黑暗刹那间转为光明”，因为他终于找到了自己的“使命”（Purpose）。过去遭遇的所有折磨在瞬间都具备了非凡的意义：那些他曾共事过的、愚蠢至极却又热衷玩弄政治手段的病态上司们，全变成了他笔下最生动鲜活的研究素材。格林感叹，如果没有这次转折，他或许早已因酗酒、过度肥胖死于心脏病，甚至选择自杀。使命感拥有一种不可思议的超能力，能在人被绝望吞噬时把心中的灯彻底点亮。
---
### [01:06:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4010s) 心理态度决定现实：达伦·布朗实验与“自我实现的预言”
巴特利特补充道，很多人之所以找不到使命，是因为他们总以为机会应该凭空掉在卧室里，却不知道机会只垂青那些心理上已经做好准备的人。他援引了幻术大师达伦·布朗（Derren Brown）以及多项心理学研究中的经典实验：
- **报纸寻宝实验**：研究人员分别给悲观者和乐观者一份报纸，让他们在全报中寻找代金券。悲观者翻遍全篇一无所获；而乐观者一眼就看到了印在头版显眼位置的巨大提示——“停止阅读，去找研究员，你已经赢得了100美元”。
- **人行道横财实验**：达伦·布朗将中奖彩票或大面额钞票（50英镑或100美元）公然扔在街道正中央。抱着乐观预期的人路过时能立刻注意到并捡起，而那些满面愁容的悲观者却心不在焉地径直踩了过去。
这种心理定势会形成一种可怕的恶性螺旋：悲观者因为看不到机会而慨叹自己命途多舛，却全然不知是自己的封闭态度一手扼杀了机遇。格林对此深表赞同，指出他在《人性法则》中专门有一章探讨“态度如何塑造处境”：
| 心理态度类型 | 认知特征与现实投射 | 最终产生的现实结果 |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **收缩型 / 封闭态度**<br>(Constrictive / Closed) | 仅能透过极其狭窄阴暗的视角观察世界；认定周遭充满敌意、人人针对自己、毫无机遇。 | 盲视现实中的大量机会，将敌意投射给他人并招致真实对抗，亲手把厄运变成现实。 |
| **扩张型 / 开放态度**<br>(Expansive / Open) | 坚信世界充满不可思议的可能，任何微小角落都潜藏着希望与跳板；保持敏锐与好奇。 | 捕捉到哪怕最不起眼的机遇碎屑并将其放大，凭借敏锐行动将良好愿景转化为切实成就。 |
格林总结道，这两种态度本身都带有一种主观偏差，并非纯粹客观的“现实”，但关键在于：**你的态度本身就是在创造现实**。心胸收窄的人亲手为自己制造了不幸，而心怀开放的人则用自己的敏锐将细微的转机铸造成翻盘的基石。
---
### [01:09:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4177s) 现代空虚感的延伸：网络色情对年轻人的侵蚀
在探讨了年轻一代面临的“无意义感”、“孤独感”以及现实感的剥离之后，巴特利特将话题顺势引向了当代年轻男性与女性所共同面临的另一大严峻诱惑与困境——网络色情（Pornography）的泛滥。在现今的算法机制与社交媒体生态下，不论用户是否主动搜索，只要随意刷几下屏幕，各种尺度露骨、充满诱惑性的色情擦边内容就会被源源不断地强行推送到面前，正逐渐重塑一代人的神经奖赏机制与现实动力。
### [01:10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4200s) 色情成瘾背后的操纵机制与“崇高之爱”的丧失
斯蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）首先抛出了一个尖锐的社会现象：他在浏览日常信息流时常常会冷不防弹出各种露骨内容，而统计数据显示，美国约有 80% 的男性和 40% 的女性都在消费色情内容。他询问罗伯特·格林，这种唾手可得的色情制品是否正在剥夺人们投入精力建立真实浪漫关系的意愿。格林直截了当地指出，这本质上就是一种精心设计的成瘾机制。制造这些内容的人摸透了人类心理，极其擅长用特定的画面牢牢钩住受众，“你被他们玩弄于股掌之间，就像个傻瓜一样被操控”。这与马克·扎克伯格（Mark Zuckerberg）在 Facebook 信息流中运用算法诱使用户上瘾如出一辙，也如同快餐工业为了让人不断往嘴里塞多力多滋（Doritos）而设计的味觉陷阱。
格林强调自己并非站在清教徒的立场进行虚伪的道德审判，而是从更深刻的人性体验出发。他在正在撰写的新书中专门设有一章讨论“崇高之爱”（Love Sublime）——那不是对上帝或宇宙的宏大抽象之爱，而是对另一个具体活生生的人（无论男女或性取向）所产生的崇高联结。在真正的亲密关系中，两个人之间的防线会彻底消融，自我（ego）逐渐软化，你能够真切地感知对方的世界，对方也能感知你的世界。对于一种彻底的“社会性动物”而言，这种深度的身心共振是世间最高形式的连接，甚至超越了宗教层面的感召。
英语中将恋爱称为“坠入爱河”（falling in love），格林认为这个词极为精准——它是一种持续的、彻底的“下坠”。这意味着你必须彻底敞开自己，卸下所有防线去承受脆弱。然而，大多数人之所以半途而废，是因为恐惧受到伤害：一旦两人发生摩擦，或者听到朋友对伴侣的冷言冷语，人们就会立刻启动自我防御机制，猛地斩断情感，导致浪漫关系过早夭折。但如果一个人能够鼓起勇气跨越这份恐惧，任由自己不断向下坠落、彻底敞开，就能迎来那种奇迹般的“附魅感”（enchantment）。在这个状态下，整个世界都会瞬间鲜活起来，一切都变得无比美丽。相反，色情片彻底剥夺了这种神圣体验，它用机械化、丑陋的套路对两性关系进行了“祛魅”，将参与者沦为冰冷的机器零件，毫无情感波澜与灵魂沟通，带来的是无尽的压抑与异化。
- **色情消费数据**：美国约 80% 的男性与 40% 的女性定期接触或消费色情内容。
- **操纵与算法机制**：色情工业通过精确计算的视听刺激重塑用户神经回路，逻辑与社交平台的信息流算法及工业快餐（如多力多滋）的成瘾设计完全一致。
- **“崇高之爱”（Love Sublime）的核心要素**：
- 自我边界的溶解与软化（Ego softening）；
- 彼此世界的深度互通与情感共鸣；
- 彻底暴露脆弱性并克服被伤害的恐惧，允许自己持续“坠落”。
### [01:13:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4410s) 机械化的祛魅：从日本经典电影看真正的诱惑与浪漫
格林进一步对比了色情制品的机械感与真正的“诱惑的艺术”。他以自己最近观看的一部 1950 年代日本导演小津安二郎（Yasujirō Ozu）的经典电影为例：片中一位已婚男子面对一位充满魅力的女性的试探与诱惑，两人逐渐逼近，最终接吻。镜头中没有任何裸露的肉体，更没有任何直白的性行为，但那种情感与能量的层层递进、那种跨越禁忌的微妙张力，带来了无与伦比的震撼与性张力。
在格林看来，浪漫元素和心理层面的前戏铺垫，反而能让性体验的爆发力呈几何级数增长。反观当下，当年轻一代（尤其是年轻男性）彻底沉溺于高度程序化、机械化的视听快感时，这种关系已经退化到了近乎“AI 性爱”的地步。这种趋势正在让人丧失灵魂，剥夺人们真正坠入爱河并体验深层多维情感的能力。格林特别指出，这种崇高的浪漫体验并不一定非要维持二十年之久，哪怕它只有短短三个月，也足以彻底重塑一个人的人格厚度，让人成为一个更完整、更丰满的真实人类。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 崇高之爱与机械色情的心理路径对比
accDescr: 对比真实浪漫中的情感下坠、脆弱与附魅感，与色情工业中的算法操纵、机械化与灵魂异化。
subgraph SublimeLove ["崇高之爱（Sublime Love）"]
A["卸下防备，展现脆弱"] --> B["克服恐惧，允许自我持续下坠"]
B --> C["自我边界消融，灵魂深度交融"]
C --> D["世界重新附魅，获得高维人性体验"]
end
subgraph PornMechanics ["机械色情（Pornography）"]
E["高频视听刺激与工业算法"] --> F["追求即时满足，规避社交摩擦与伤害"]
F --> G["肉体沦为机械零件，情感连接抽离"]
G --> H["全面祛魅、身心离线与动力枯竭"]
end
```
### [01:17:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4623s) 廉价多巴胺对人类动力的侵蚀：从大鼠实验到低欲望文化
在短暂的品牌支持环节后，斯蒂文将话题引向神经生物学层面的探讨。他引用了此前做客播客的心理学家提到的经典大鼠实验：当研究人员破坏大鼠脑中负责分泌多巴胺的区域后，即便把食物推到距离其嘴边仅六英寸的地方，大鼠也会活活饿死，因为它彻底丧失了驱动自己行动的“动机”（motivation）。多巴胺本质上是一种促使生命体采取行动的化学递质。长期的超高多巴胺刺激会导致多巴胺受体脱敏甚至下调，进而导致个体的整体动机水平严重下滑。斯蒂文担忧，现代社会中无处不在的高多巴胺诱惑与极易获取的色情制品，是否正在系统性地孕育一代缺乏生活目标、缺乏性欲望、彻底失去行动力的“低动力人群”。
格林对此深表赞同，但他提醒道，问题的根源远不止色情制品，社交媒体和其他数字网络媒介同样难辞其咎。要理解这个问题的严重性，首先必须重新审视“何为人类”这一本质问题：人类归根结底是物理肉身层面的生物，我们并非单纯在头脑中抽象思辨，而是在用身体、用体内奔流的各种神经化学物质在思考。人类是刻在基因里的社会性动物，人类真正的优越之处正在于面对面的真实连接——通过眼神交汇感知彼此的微表情与内心活动，在思想碰撞中达成更深层的理解或直面分歧。
格林情绪激动地直言：“你不是一台该死的 AI 机器！你不是聊天机器人，不是一串算法，也不是扎克伯格用来调配数据流的一个微小数据包！”他呼吁人们必须回归肉身，重新成为一个具备物质实体的人类：回到现实世界中去采取行动、去辛勤工作、去创办企业、用双手去制造实物、去挥洒汗水锻炼、去在线下真实地结识人类，全然地驻留于自己的身体之内。而沉浸在色情制品和虚拟幻觉中的人，已经彻底沦为了“离线/脱嵌于肉体”（disembodied）的孤魂，即便手上在进行着生理宣泄，其心灵却早已与真实的生命经验彻底脱节。
- **多巴胺大鼠实验**：阻断大鼠多巴胺分泌机制后，大鼠即便面对仅距 6 英寸的食物也会饿死，证明多巴胺是驱使行动与生存动机的根本催化剂。
- **受体钝化效应**：持续暴露于高刺激的超常诱惑（色情片、短视频流等），会导致大脑多巴胺受体脱敏与功能失调，直接表现为行动力衰退、无目标感以及现实生活中的低欲望。
- **具身认知与肉身回归**：格林批判数字化时代的“离散化/脱离肉身”（disembodied）状态，主张人类必须通过实体行动、手工实践、体育运动与面对面社交，重建物理肉身与真实人性的连接。
### [01:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4800s) 对抗数字异化的反叛：重返人类本真
罗伯特·格林指出，现代人虽然活着，但在任何实质层面上都未曾真正“处于自己的肉体之中”。然而他心中仍抱有一线希望，甚至看到了时代萌芽中的微光：年轻一代终将开始对这种被科技与屏幕异化的生存状态感到厌恶。人类的精神依旧极其强大，那种“我不想变成这样、这感觉不对劲、不自然”的本能觉醒终会发生。他期待在自己离开人世后的二三十年里，社会能掀起一场轰轰烈烈的反向运动——人们开始反抗数字虚无，重新探索做人到底意味着什么，甚至重新燃起对人类原始历史、远古异教时代的兴趣（这也正是他目前新书所探索的主题）。
这种反抗并非空想，现实中已有端倪。格林提到数周前在《纽约时报》上读到的一篇报道：某所大学里有一群年轻人自发组成了一个抵制社交媒体的社团，其严格程度堪比兄弟会或姊妹会，任何看手机的人都会被严禁加入。格林兴奋地直呼“太棒了，兄弟”，甚至表示如果自己现在还在读大学，一定会第一时间加入。尽管他并不认为科技全然邪恶（他自己也有手机），但如果置身于年轻人的处境，面对这个令人作呕的数字世界，他会极其渴望发起一场回归人性的革命。
### [01:21:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4892s) 我们不愿承认的人性：动物根源与深层非理性
在被问及“人类最不愿承认自己身上的什么特质”时，格林直言不讳地指出，首当其冲的就是我们的动物根源——在发明语言之前，人类和野外生存的动物毫无区别。他回忆起大约十到十二年前在澳大利亚悉尼逛动物园的经历。尽管身为动物爱好者的他平日极其痛恨像监狱一样的动物园，但为了见识奇特珍禽异兽还是去了。那里有一个让黑猩猩自由活动的开阔园区，格林入迷地坐在那儿看了整整两个小时。
眼前的景象让他惊叹不已：那完全就是曼哈顿某个公司办公室的微缩翻版——一个雄性首领（Alpha Male）神气活现，其他雄性像下属跟在首席执行官屁股后头一样毕恭毕敬地尾随。更有趣的是周围人类游客的反应：大家显得极度尴尬，不断吃吃傻笑。人们之所以用发笑来掩饰，是因为面对一种举止与人类高度相似却又保留纯粹兽性的生物时，内心感到了巨大的不安。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 人性否认机制与真实面貌
accDescr: 展示人类如何将自我美化为圣人，同时否认内在动物性与黑暗面的心理机制。
subgraph 虚假面具["自欺欺人的道德面具"]
Ideal["圣洁、理性、道德化<br/>'我一心只为他人着想'"]
end
subgraph 真实根源["被否认的动物性与黑暗面"]
Animal["原始兽性与本能<br/>无法被文明完全规训"]
Irrational["深层非理性、攻击性与嫉妒"]
Manipulation["权术与博弈（《权力的48条法则》）"]
end
Ideal -. 否认与投射.-> RealWorld["指责他人是自私的混蛋<br/>如：'只有政客/富豪才是自恋狂'"]
RealWorld --- Animal
RealWorld --- Irrational
RealWorld --- Manipulation
```
格林分析认为，人类在内心深处极力否定那些自己无法完全掌控、非逻辑、不理性、不够“文明干净”的部分。我们编造了一套童话故事，坚信自己是充满道德感、时刻为他人着想的圣洁生物，但现实根本不是这样：
- 真实世界充斥着游戏与权谋，正如他在《权力的48条法则》中所描述的那样，每个人都有操控他人的一面，都有未被驯服的阴暗角落。
- 人类本质上是极度非理性的造物，但人们习惯性把嫉妒、攻击性和自私归咎于外界，坚信“坏毛病都是别人的”。
### [01:24:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5057s) 人人皆自恋：从健康自恋到自我觉察
谈到人性中的自恋倾向，格林强调自私与自我关注是人人具备的共性。只要读一本书时突然看见自己的生日，或是扫到自己的星座，任何人的耳朵都会立刻竖起来，并在心里惊呼：“哇，这是我！”这不是道德败坏，而是客观真理。可大众总是极力否认，把自恋当作骂人的标签扔给唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）或埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk），却看不到自己内心的自恋。
针对主持人斯蒂芬关于“自恋是否是登顶权力巅峰所必需”的疑问，格林提出了“深层自恋”（Deep Narcissism）与“健康自恋”（Healthy Narcissism）的区别：
- **深层自恋者**：往往带来破坏性与病态的人际关系。
- **健康自恋者**：许多伟大的艺术家在私德上并不完美，既非良友，也非忠诚的伴侣，但他们把澎湃的自恋能量倾注于创作，为人类文明留下了传世杰作。史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）脾气暴躁、极具攻击性且是个控制狂，但他凭借这种健康自恋打造出了改变世界的伟大产品。
格林借用戒酒互助会（AA）的第一原则警告众人：如果你想戒酒，首先必须跪下来承认自己是个酗酒者；同理，如果你想克服自恋，就必须低下高傲的头颅，承认“我就是一个自恋者”。哪怕是圣雄甘地（Mahatma Gandhi）或马丁·路德·金（Martin Luther King），也都有着强烈的自恋倾向。“这个世界上根本没有圣人”，唯有向内审视，正视自己的自恋特质，改变才有可能发生。
### [01:27:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5229s) 与自恋者共处之道：不露锋芒的双重游戏
当斯蒂芬问及普通人在职场与生活中不得不与自恋者打交道时，是否应该遵循《权力的48条法则》第一法则“切勿盖过上司的光芒”（Never Outshine the Master），刻意隐藏实力以迎合对方时，格林给出了极为实用的策略指导。
格林认为，做人最妙的地方就在于你能够“同时做两件事”：
- **外在表演**：在表面上有意识地配合对方演戏，不抢其风头，以免激起对方根深蒂固的不安全感而招致排挤或解雇。
- **内在清醒**：在内心深处，你必须保持冷酷的理性，对自己说：“这个人并不比我优秀，他们根本配不上这个职位，甚至既无能又愚蠢。但因为人类是社交动物，我现在必须表现出忠诚，在他们身边学习并向上爬；有朝一日我站稳脚跟，就可以甩掉他们，证明我比他们强得多。”
格林特别叮嘱，这种博弈中最危险的陷阱就是把软弱“内化”。如果你在退让中当了真，真觉得自己低人一等、不配成功，那这种自卑感将会成为折磨你一生的梦魇。高段位的做法是游刃有余地同时玩转表里两套游戏。
### [01:28:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5316s) 社会生存的伪装：为什么我们生来就是演员
斯蒂芬进一步发问：“为了在生活中取得成功，我们是否必须成为一名演员？”格林半开玩笑地表示这会让他变得有些“暴躁”，因为事实再明显不过：人人都是演员，只是没人敢于坦白。从人类三岁大的时候起，伪装与操控就已经悄然开始。幼儿大哭大闹往往只是为了博取父母的注意力，故意招惹兄弟姐妹是为了达到特定目的；孩子们早已心知肚明，只要表现得像个“小天使”，妈妈就会满足自己的要求——儿童天生就是纯熟的表演大师。
人类作为演化成熟的社交动物，拥有语言这项强大的武器，而语言的功能之一就是言不由衷。我们可以一边嘴上赞叹“我太喜欢你的剧本了”、“你在电影里的表现简直绝了”、“你今天看起来真漂亮”，一边在内心毫无波澜甚至持相反态度。格林指出，这种社交面具恰恰是文明维系的润滑剂：
- 如果每个人从早到晚毫无保留地把内心对别人的真实看法全部吐露出来，人际关系早就彻底瓦解，人类也早已在自相残杀中灭绝。
- 无论是在职场中对老板拣好听的话说，还是在亲密关系中对伴侣隐藏某些锋芒，适度的掩饰与表演是每一个社会人在生活棋局中前行的必修课。
### [01:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5400s) 人生如戏：承认我们都在扮演角色与操纵
罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）指出，每个人本质上都是演员，他不理解为什么人们很难看清这个日常现实。人在不同的人面前绝不可能表现得完全一致：你在父亲面前的言谈举止，与在儿子面前或在同事面前完全是两副面孔。你的幽默方式、身体语言、说话语调全部都在改变。“有些人演得好，有些人演得糟，但你就是一个演员。”
史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提出反思，认为人们之所以极力否认这点，是因为“操纵”、“撒谎”和“演戏”听起来非常丑陋且不道德，没有人愿意主动承认自己正在做这些事。史蒂文询问，这是否意味着想要在生活中取得成功，就必须学会适度撒谎、操纵和伪装？格林直截了当地纠正：这并非“需不需要”的问题，而是“你本来就在这么做”，哪怕你潜意识里死不承认。
这种回避让人联想到人们在悉尼动物园面对黑猩猩残酷一面时的不安，人们对自己性格中阴暗、真实的层面感到极度不适。格林强调，他并不是提倡大家到处去算计他人、踩着别人往上爬；但更成熟的做法是坦然承认自己具备操纵的能力，并且意识到自己经常在无意识中通过被动攻击（passive-aggressive）的方式操纵他人。承认这一点，你才能在必要时运用策略保护自己，免受不必要的伤害。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 社交行为的双重认知与演戏本质
accDescr: 展示人类在不同场景下扮演不同角色，以及从无意识操纵到理智自控的认知跃迁。
subgraph Reality["日常现实"]
A["不同社交场景<br/>(面对长辈 / 子女 / 同事)"] --> B["切换面具与肢体语言<br/>(本能的演戏与角色扮演)"]
end
subgraph SelfAwareness["认知态度"]
B --> C{"是否承认自身在演戏与操纵？"}
C -- "否认与道德伪善" --> D["无意识的被动攻击<br/>陷入被动与痛苦"]
C -- "坦然接纳人性" --> E["学会策略性自控<br/>如：说的永远比需要的少"]
end
```
---
### [01:32:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5520s) 权力法则第四条：说的永远比需要的少
当被问及《权力的48条法则》（*The 48 Laws of Power*）中的第四法则“说的永远比需要的少”（Always say less than necessary）时，格林深入拆解了言语与权势气场的关系。在观察有权有势的人时会发现，寡言少语者往往比那些喋喋不休、管不住舌头的人散发出更强大的权威气场。
逻辑非常简单：如果你连自己的嘴都管不住、整天喋喋不休，你向外界传递出的信号就是你根本无法掌控任何事情——你彻底缺乏自控力，而这是一种极度软弱的气场。此外，话越多，说出愚蠢、非理性以及让自己后悔的话的几率就呈指数级上升。
真正掌握权力的人懂得如何掌控全场：他们静坐聆听，任由其他人争论不休、各抒己见，偶尔才抛出一两句略带模糊或耐人寻味的话。这种简短发言会让所有人屏息琢磨：“天哪，罗伯特刚才说了那句话，那究竟是什么意思？”这种做法立刻营造出一种神秘感与绝对的掌控力。许多人在这条法则上栽跟头，是因为他们天真地以为在职场和社交世界中可以“想说什么就说什么”，但现实是，管不住嘴必然会招致灾祸。
---
### [01:33:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5584s) “贡献信用分”与 50 Cent 的静默威慑
史蒂文根据自己多年经商和管理公司的经验，提出了一个类似的理论——“贡献信用分”（Contribution Score）。就像个人财务信用分一样，如果财务决策草率，信用分就会下跌；在团队和会议中，个人的发言与贡献同样存在信用分机制。
史蒂文回忆起多年前自己另一家公司的一位员工，在头脑风暴会议上，每当大家讨论方案时，该员工总是在还没想清楚前就急于插话：“如果做个快闪店呢？或者我们搞个……”，把未成熟的思考过程完全大声嚷出来。作为 CEO，史蒂文观察到只要此人一开口，全场员工都会暗中翻白眼并试图打断他，因为他在团队中的“贡献信用分”早已透支——大家默认他的发言冗长、毫无产出且未经雕琢。反观曼彻斯特办公室的另一位员工，平时极少发言，但只要他开口，必定切中要害，整间会议室的气氛会瞬间转向他，所有人屏息倾听。
格林对此深表赞同，并分享了他与说唱巨星 50 Cent（柯蒂斯·杰克逊，两人曾合著《第50条法则》）一起参加商务会议的真实经历：
- 50 Cent 在会议中几乎一言不发，只是靠在椅背上，嘴角带着一丝意味深长的苦笑。
- 满屋子的商务高管紧张得瑟瑟发抖，心里疯狂打鼓：“天啊，他怎么不说话？难道他对我的提案完全不感兴趣？”
- 直到最后，50 Cent 才会极其简短、冷淡地吐出几个字，高管们这才如释重负地松了一口气。
- 50 Cent 凭借沉默完全掌控了整个房间，他的不表态直接激发了对方拼命竞争以取悦他的心理。
---
### [01:34:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5697s) 丛林法则：利用他人的劳动，坐享其成果
谈及《权力的48条法则》中另一条充满争议的法则——“让他人为你做工，但将功劳记在自己名下”（Let others do the work, but take the credit），格林解释道，书中的某些法则带有强烈的反讽意味，读者必须具备识别反讽与现实隐喻的能力。正如书中关于“建立狂热追随者”的章节一样，并非鼓励你去建立邪教，而是揭示你可能已经在某种狂热崇拜之中。
格林讲述了自己早年在好莱坞为一位电影导演担任编剧助理的痛苦往事：
- 两人常常坐在房间里讨论故事结构与台词，格林倾囊相助，输出了大量绝妙点子与对白，导演则在旁飞速记录。
- 最终成型的剧本中，至少有三分之一到四分之一的内容完全出自格林之手。
- 然而剧本出炉后，编剧一栏只有导演的名字，格林没有得到哪怕一丝一毫的署名或致谢。
- 当人们赞叹“那句台词太精彩了！太有才华了！”时，享受赞誉的是导演，但那句词其实是格林写的。
格林承认自己当时满腔怨恨与委屈，但他后来意识到这就是娱乐传媒产业残酷的“丛林法则”：电视脱口秀主持人镜头前的幽默段子来自幕后庞大的编剧团队，新闻主播口中引人入胜的事实来自默默无闻的研究人员，聚光灯永远只打在拿走最终成果的人身上。格林指出，如果当时年轻的自己更成熟一些，就应该明白“这就是现实，冷静下来，未来总会有机会让世界看到属于你自己的书和作品”。如果当时大吵大闹、争夺功劳，不仅触犯了“切勿掩盖上司光芒”的大忌，更会立刻被解雇。
史蒂文补充了一个管理上的负面案例：在他此前创立的一家拥有约200名员工的曼彻斯特公司里，有一位20出头的年轻员工，每当公司大群里表彰项目成果、偶尔有人无意漏掉他的名字时，他就会跑去公司外面的台阶上向年轻同事大声抱怨、嚼舌根。这种对争夺功劳的执念不仅没有为他争取到认可，反而迅速让他在全公司范围内树立了“自私、爱抱怨、急功近利”的恶劣名声。
格林总结强调，法则的运用必须具备智慧与语境感知：
- **作为下属或底层人员**：切忌在团队项目中强行抢功，否则只会沦为笑柄并招致毁灭；
- **作为权力上位者**：千百年来，统治者和领导者始终在整合他人的劳动力并冠以己名，借此维持自身精力无穷、才华横溢的无所不能形象。无视这种权力运作机制的人，终将在职场中撞得头破血流。
---
### [01:39:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5971s) 情绪自控：一切权力策略的底层基石
史蒂文指出，无论是管住嘴巴、避免盖过上司的风芒，还是在功劳被掠夺时压制内心的愤怒与怨恨，所有这些策略的实施，归根结底都指向了格林在《人类天性法则》（*The Laws of Human Nature*）中探讨的核心主题——对自我情绪的绝对掌控（Mastering your emotional self）。
如果没有强大的情绪自控能力作为基础，人在受到不公待遇或急于表现时，必然会本能地争夺功劳、滔滔不绝或情绪失控。格林对此高度认同，确认自控力正是理解并驾驭一切人性法则与权力博弈的绝对起点。
### [01:40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6000s) 情绪不是要被扼杀，而是需要被引导与“扮演”
很多人误解了自我克制，以为掌控情绪就等于变成一个毫无情感的“冷血动物”（cold fish）。罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）对此坚决反对。他指出，情绪是人类最强大的燃料——如果你没有内在的情感能量和兴奋感，你根本不可能写出一本书，也不可能白手起家创办一家企业。因此，自我控制绝不是去扼杀情绪，扼杀情绪只会让人变得软弱无能。关键在于学习如何“引导和控制”情绪。在复杂的社交生态中，某些情绪化的宣泄会被外界直接解读为软弱、歇斯底里、缺乏执行力乃至彻底的无能。
在这个层面上，每个人都必须学会像演员一样行事，向外界展现出最得体、最具力量的门面（facade）。格林坦言这绝非易事，尤其在年轻时，人类的生物本能就是情绪化的。他自己年轻时就曾吃尽苦头，走过无数弯路——比如在职场中因为心直口快说错一句话而丢掉饭碗，或者不小心触犯了“切勿掩盖上司光芒”（Never Outshine the Master）的第一法则而被解雇。他写作的初衷，正是希望将这些惨痛换来的教训传授给后人，让年轻人不必重蹈覆辙。
---
### [01:41:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6100s) 警惕“错不在我”的本能：把10%的过错放大到30%去反思
针对史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提出的“为何有些人能从经历中汲取智慧，而另一些人却在同一个怪圈里原地打转”的疑问，格林剖析了人类在犯错后根深蒂固的心理机制。当事情搞砸时，绝大多数人的第一直觉都是甩锅：“全怪那个混蛋暗算了我”或者“要不是当时缺乏资金支持、没有贵人相助，我早就成功了”。格林提到了著名心理学家埃利奥特·阿伦森（Elliot Aronson）合著的经典心理学著作《错不在我》（*Mistakes Were Made, But Not by Me*），指出逃避责任、自我合理化是人类不假思索的“第一反应”。
真正能够拉开人与人之间差距的，是战胜第一反应后的“第二本能”（second instinct）。当遭遇挫败时，第一反应虽是指责外界，但紧接着你必须迅速退后一步并警醒自己：“等一下，我是在自欺欺人。在这场危机中，我究竟扮演了什么角色？我本可以做出哪些不同的选择？”格林强调，哪怕整件事情中外部环境占了90%的因素，你的实际责任只有10%，你也应当在心理上把自己的责任“放大到30%”来复盘。
- **反思微小细节**：审视自己不经意间的肢体语言、说话的措辞甚至某些细微举动，是否引起了他人的反感与戒心。
- **掌握纠错主动权**：怨天尤人意味着你永远是环境的被动受害者；唯有主动承担并放大自己的责任，你才能在下一次掌控局面、修正错误。
---
### [01:43:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6229s) 遭遇背叛与不公：反击、忽视还是离开的战略博弈
当我们在职场或生活中遭遇不公——比如同事在老板背后打小报告让你痛失晋升机会——人们的第一反应往往是从归咎迅速升级为复仇。巴特利特引用了《权力的48条法则》中第36条“藐视你无法拥有的东西：视而不见是最好的报复”（Disdain Things You Cannot Have: Ignoring Them Is the Best Revenge），向格林请教面对冤屈与背叛的最佳策略。格林指出，真正的战略家绝不会采取一刀切的态度，而是会精准评估当下的环境参数。
格林将组织文化划分为0到100分的谱系：100分是“现实导向型团队”（reality group），所有人只关注实际结果与工作效能；而0分则是彻底的“有毒政治型团队”，充满了拍马屁、关系网与倾轧。如果身处一家政治氛围只值20分的公司，最明智的选择就是果断抽身离开，因为即使除掉一个烂人，还会有源源不断的麻烦找上门来。
如果必须留下来应对这个恶意的对手，格林给出了三种不同的博弈层级：
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 面对职场不公与恶意的战略应对路径
accDescr: 展示面对背叛或不公时的三种应对层级，包括抽身离开、降维打击以及实施威慑战略
A["遭遇背叛与不公<br>（同事暗中中伤/痛失晋升）"] --> B{"评估环境政治分数<br>（0 - 100分）"}
subgraph S1["路径选择"]
B -- "组织文化评分 ≤ 20分" --> C["选择一：果断抽身离开<br>（远离有毒环境）"]
B -- "必须留下来应对" --> D{"权衡个人特质与战术目标"}
D -- "注重长远心智安全" --> E["选择二：视而不见与卓越复仇<br>（超然处之，凭实力夺回晋升）"]
D -- "面对无底线掠夺者" --> F["选择三：威慑战略<br>（控制性单次反击，迎头痛击）"]
end
subgraph S2["战术效果"]
E --> G["展现惊人自控力<br>让对手心生敬畏"]
F --> H["打破不对称劣势<br>亮出底牌让其不敢再犯"]
end
```
- **选择一：超然专注（成功是最好的报复）**：不对恶劣言行产生情绪波动，假装无事发生，将全部精力投入到凭实力证明自己、夺回晋升上。当你对他们的下三滥手段无动于衷，依旧高效工作时，对手反而会因你展现出的冷峻从容（composure）与强大自控力而感到惶恐不安。
- **选择二：实施“威慑战略”（Deterrent Strategy）**：面对没有道德底线的马基雅维利式对手（类似于普京式的人物），普通人往往处于不对称战争的劣势，因为对方为了权力不择手段。格林警告：“掠夺者最喜欢猎物”（Predators love prey）。如果你一味妥协退让，只会招来变本加厉的霸凌。此时必须向对方船头开上一炮（shot across their bow）——进行一次精准、克制、单次性的反击，哪怕是破坏其声誉或放出杀伤性信息，目的在于向对方明确宣示：“我口袋里藏着枪，别来招惹我。”
- **立足长远博弈**：所有战术选择都取决于你自身的性格与所面临敌人的性质，战略的真谛是服务于长远利益（the long game）——有时候一次坚决的反击，换来的是未来几年的无人敢扰。
---
### [01:48:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6497s) 宏大叙事瓦解：历史周期下的迷茫与解构
巴特利特将视角从微观的人际博弈拉升至宏观的时代巨变。他指出，当代社会赖以维系的基石正在崩解，以往将大众凝聚在一起的宏大神话——无论是宗教信仰还是对民主制度的崇高信念——如今都失去了原有的向心力。各种权威体系普遍受到质疑与解构，人群陷入分裂与共识的真空。鉴于格林深谙历史周期与人类天性的演变规律，巴特利特向他发问：我们当前究竟身处历史周期的哪个阶段？在这样一个权威碎裂、共同信仰缺位的时代，个人究竟该如何审时度势、找准前行的方向？格林随即从大历史的宏观视角展开了深层解读。
### [01:50:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6600s) 历史的混沌周期与煽动家的简单叙事
罗伯特·格林指出，从历史学家的宏观视角来看，人类社会总是周期性地陷入混乱。在过去，这种混乱可能由致命瘟疫或长期战乱（如欧洲的百年战争）引发；每当灾难降临，人们便会深陷无力感与迷茫，世界随之爆发严重的“意义危机”。无论是在古代亚洲还是欧洲，这一规律反复上演。当大众感到无助且被混乱包围时，非理性情绪会急剧蔓延，人们极易被威权领袖所吸引，狂热追随那些提供简单粗暴答案的信条与邪教——比如“让美国再次伟大”（Make America Great Again）这样朗朗上口的一句话口号。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 混乱时期的心理危机与威权诱惑
accDescr: 描述人类在遭遇失控与危机时转向狂热支持简单政治口号的心理链条
subgraph ExternalCrisis ["现实失控与危机"]
A["全球失控感<br/>（气候危机 / 经济动荡 / 政治失调）"]
B["心理危机<br/>（普遍无力感、焦虑与意义丧失）"]
end
subgraph Amplifiers ["现代催化剂"]
C["社交媒体与模因病毒式传播<br/>（放大极端情绪与对立）"]
end
subgraph DemagogueTrap ["煽动家的陷阱"]
D["极简口号与仙话叙事<br/>（如‘单靠关税/驱逐解决一切’）"]
E["盲从威权与放弃独立思考"]
end
A --> B
B --> C
C --> D
D --> E
```
格林认为，当下的世界正处于这样一个高度危险的混乱关口，而且其影响远不止于美国本土：
- **无处不在的失控感**：气候变化带来的极端灾难正在潜移默化地折磨着公众的心智，让人产生无法掌控自然环境的神经质焦虑；在全球化经济体制下，普通人的生意和生计随时可能受制于印度尼西亚、日本或中国发生的变动；与此同时，传统政客的空洞说辞根本无法带来实际成果。
- **信息技术的放大效应**：相比黑死病时期、英法百年战争或19世纪之交剧烈变革的法国工业革命，当今时代面临着社交媒体、网络模因（Memes）和病毒式传播的狂轰滥炸。这种前所未有的信息狂潮加剧了群体的恐慌与极端化。
- **警惕“童话故事”式的一刀切方案**：格林呼吁大众必须建立起历史的远见与警惕心。面对那些宣称“只要加征关税”或“只要赶走所有非法移民，美国就会彻底变好”的政客，必须保持清醒，意识到这不过是煽动家兜售的虚妄童话；同时他也明确表示这并非党派偏见，因为大洋彼岸的另一派同样在贩卖属于他们的政治童话。
---
### [01:53:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6800s) 真正的男子气概：批判性思考与自省
史蒂文·巴特利特顺势抛出一个尖锐问题：根据统计，给罗伯特写邮件最多的读者群体正是年轻男性，而这部分人恰恰在大选中压倒性地将选票投给了特朗普；作为一位对特朗普持强烈批评态度的作者，罗伯特究竟会如何向这群拥趸解释自己的立场？
格林对此给出了极具深度的回答：核心不在于选谁，而在于**你是否还拥有独立思考的能力**。如果你支持特朗普，你必须有能力退后一步反问自己：“他做的某些事情我是否并不赞同？这真的正确吗？”保持辨别力与心理距离，敢于批判自己所属的阵营，才是心智成熟的标志。格林毫不留情地解剖自己所属的政治光谱，直言自己属于自由主义民主党左派，但他怒斥民主党高层：“他们就是一群小丑、蠢才，彻头彻尾的无能之辈。他们犯了极其可怕的错误，彻底搞砸了这次大选。”尽管承认这一点令人痛苦，但他强调自己绝不会盲从左翼的一切政策，尤其是某些荒谬透顶的觉醒文化（wokeness）。
接着，格林剖析了网络上被严重扭曲的“男性气概”：
- **情绪化宣泄不是刚强**：很多年轻男性以为展现男子汉气概就是满嘴粗口、在 YouTube 评论区冲动地写下侮辱性言论（“去你的罗伯特，你个白痴”），但这种完全被情绪牵着走的行为根本不是强悍，而是“丧失独立思考能力的愚蠢表现”。
- **自律与自我批判才是真力量**：真正的阳刚之气（Masculinity）本质上是高度的自制力。它体现在能够抽身退步冷静审视局面，敢于直面自己的错误并做出富有建设性的行动。“软弱的人永远无法反省自己”，唯有敢于质疑自身立场、接纳自己可能犯错的人，才拥有真正的力量与男子气概。
史蒂文随后分享了一项近期在社交平台 X 上读到的科学实验：研究人员将男性受试者分为两组，其中一组被给予外源性睾酮。实验结果显示，睾酮水平较高的男性在面临从众压力时，反而显著更少地屈服于外界的社会预期。这恰好从生理机制层面呼应了罗伯特的观点——真正的男子气概并不在于盲目随大流或抱团宣泄，而在于坚持内心原则、抵抗外部同化压力的内核硬度。
---
### [01:57:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7024s) 政治沟通的较量：民主党的失误与特朗普的强项
面对史蒂文坦承自己因反感非黑即白的二元对立而选择保持政治中立的态度，话题转向了当下政治交锋的核心：在觉醒文化与白热化的选战中，左翼到底错在了哪里，而特朗普又做对了什么？
格林坦承，承认特朗普的长处对自己而言虽然“痛苦”，但不得不承认特朗普在**政治沟通与信息传递**（Communication and Messaging）方面堪称天才，而民主党在这方面则表现得极度拙劣：
| 政治阵营 | 战略沟通特征 | 核心受众策略 | 面对仇恨与争议的态度 |
|:--- |:--- |:--- |:--- |
| **特朗普与右翼阵营** | 擅长提炼极其简明、直击人心的口号；展现出寸步不让的强悍战斗意志。 | 极度聚焦并深耕自身的基本盘，不浪费精力讨好中间派或对立面。 | 完全不在乎被一部分大众厌恶，深知在政治斗争中“被敌人痛恨”反而是彰显立场的勋章。 |
| **建制派民主党阵营** | 沟通笨拙拖沓，无法提炼出有力且直观的核心愿景；决策软弱无力。 | 试图讨好每一个细分的特定利益集团（Special Interest Groups），患得患失。 | 极度害怕冒犯任何群体，缺乏展现战斗决心的气魄，导致整体形象疲软乏力。 |
格林透露，自己曾直接向民主党内部人士建言：特朗普向公众证明了他是一个不折不扣的战士，他坚信自己的理念，并且不惜激怒他人去战斗；而民主党却彻底输在了畏首畏尾上。“被某些人讨厌是件好事，你必须捍卫某种主张并准备好为之战斗。”格林虽然在具体施政纲领上与特朗普有着不可逾越的鸿沟，但他承认特朗普牢牢掌握了现代大众政治的沟通精髓；与此同时，左翼深陷的觉醒主义意识形态则正在滑向另一个极端的误区。
### [02:00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7200s) 道德纯洁性测试与以巴冲突的复杂现实
罗伯特·格林直言不讳地批评了当下的“觉醒文化”（Wokeism）。他指出，这种思潮脱离了日常生活和周遭现实，沦为一种非黑即白的“道德纯洁性测试”（purity test）：要么完全接受其教条被视作好人，要么被直接划入对立面打成恶人。然而现实世界绝非二元对立，绝大多数事物都处于灰色地带；除了谋杀或公认的社会不公等少数无可争议的恶行外，极少事情能用单纯的好坏来定性。
以巴冲突便是最好的例证。格林分享了自己的个人背景：他是一名犹太人，虽然从未主张过犹太复国主义，也不参与宗教仪式，但他对自己犹太人的身份感到自豪，也曾举行过犹太成人礼（Bar Mitzvah）。大屠杀摧毁了他的大部分先祖家族，童年时期父母仍在舔舐这份深重的历史创伤，因此犹太民族经历大屠杀后无家可归、需要重返故土的诉求，他完全理解。然而，格林也曾接触过巴勒斯坦人，亲耳聆听他们失去家园、失去美丽故土的创伤与悲痛，这对他造成了巨大的心理冲击。面对这种双方均有深切痛苦的复杂局势，格林深感矛盾：他认为内塔尼亚胡（Netanyahu）是一个糟糕的领导人，但唯有通过两边妥协的“两国方案”（two-state solution）才能找到出路。但在觉醒主义者的口中，任何寻求中道妥协的人都会被扣上“支持种族灭绝”的帽子。格林批评这种态度根本不是在解决现实问题，而是纯粹为了站在道德制高点大喊大叫、标榜自己是世界上最高尚的人，却不愿卷起袖子付出实际的牺牲去寻找可行的解决方案。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 觉醒教条与现实复杂性对比
accDescr: 对比觉醒主义的二元道德审判与罗伯特·格林所主张的现实主义复杂视角
subgraph WokeLogic["觉醒主义逻辑（二元极化）"]
W1["道德纯洁性测试"] --> W2{"非黑即白判定"}
W2 -->|"全盘接纳"| W3["正义一方"]
W2 -->|"存在质疑"| W4["邪恶 / 支持种族灭绝"]
W4 --> W5["道德表演与怒吼（无实际行动）"]
end
subgraph RealWorld["现实主义视角（灰色地带）"]
R1["复杂的历史与创伤"] --> R2["以巴冲突双重视角"]
R2 --> R3["犹太人：大屠杀浩劫与寻根诉求"]
R2 --> R4["巴勒斯坦人：失地之痛与家园被毁"]
R3 & R4 --> R5["务实妥协与两国方案"]
end
```
---
### [02:02:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7355s) 部落归属的狂热陷阱：从尼加拉瓜到纽伦堡集会
针对政治立场的二元极化，史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）道出了身处政治中间地带的困境：在当下语境中，中间派往往腹背受敌，与一方交谈会被贴上“右翼”标签，与另一方交谈又会被指责为“左翼”。巴特利特坦言，人类的原始本能非常渴望站队，因为身处一个群体中能获得安全感和保护，避免陷入孤立。格林对此表示赞同，但他警告说，为了这种庇护而盲目站队，代价是“出卖你的灵魂，丧失你的尊严”。
为了说明群体狂热的诱惑与危险，格林讲述了自己年轻时的一段真实经历：
- **1983年尼加拉瓜之行**：当时24岁左右的格林是一名坚定的左翼青年，以记者身份前往尼加拉瓜报道反政府武装（Contras）与桑地诺民族解放阵线（Sandinistas）的内战，当时他十分同情并倾向于桑地诺一方。尽管后来的历史证明丹尼尔·奥尔特加（Daniel Ortega）的政权残暴专制，但在当时格林觉得他们十分崇高。
- **马那瓜广场的狂喜震颤**：在当时因强烈地震仍有半数建筑化为废墟的首都马那瓜，教皇到访引发了轰动。数十万人涌入巨型广场，格林身处其中，体验到了全场所有人思想步调完全一致的极度兴奋。格林回忆道，那种与数十万人紧密相连的感觉如同电流贯穿全身，是“一种令人中毒的体验”（intoxicating），此生再未体会过第二次。
- **狂热背后的警示**：然而这种极致的群体归属感极其危险。格林坦言，随着年龄增长，他意识到必须对此保持警惕，并拒绝再次陷入这种盲从。作为一个犹太人，他一直极度着迷于希特勒和纳粹的纪录片，每当看到纽伦堡集会上数十万人举着火炬、佩戴统一标志、步调一致地游行时，那种场景就像毒品一样让人着迷，也让人彻底看清了群体狂热是如何诞生、并最终滑向毁灭深渊的。
---
### [02:05:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7544s) 人类愚蠢的本质与特朗普的权力法则
当巴特利特询问当下是否同样陷入了这种集体狂热时，格林给出了肯定的回答。他认为现代社会正被浅薄、不经深思熟虑的方案所裹挟，这触及了困扰他多年的一个核心主题——“人类的愚蠢”（Human Stupidity）。格林透露，他原本计划将自己写作生涯的第三本书定名为《人类愚蠢史》，但出版商认为主题过于消极、篇幅也会过长而最终作罢。
格林将“愚蠢”定义为：**缺乏预见行为后果的能力**。愚蠢的人坚信自己掌握了绝对真理，并以此为凭据盲目采取行动，却完全不去推演第三步、第四步乃至第五步会引发的连锁反应。当下的政治格局充斥着这种“青春期冲动”：整个世界仿佛被人类的本能冲动（Id）所主导，就像嗑了药还自以为很酷地去飙车的青少年，自以为采取了强硬、愤怒的举措就能一劳永逸，却根本不知道五年后将面临车毁人亡的可怕恶果。
随后，巴特利特问及唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）运用了哪些权力法则。格林分析指出，特朗普无疑是践行《权力的48条法则》的高手：
- **法则6：不惜一切代价吸引关注（Court attention at all costs）**：特朗普是运用此法则的绝对大师。格林回忆自己在新加坡或澳大利亚进行新书签售巡回时，全世界每一个角落的人都在谈论特朗普，历史上几乎从未有人能拥有如此巨大的注意力吸附力。
- **法则27：利用人们相信的渴望，建立狂热崇拜（Play on people's need to believe to create a cult-like following）**：特朗普成功建立了狂热的个人崇拜。在拥趸眼中，他所做的一切都不会犯错，甚至被视为“上帝在眷顾和保护他”。格林直言不讳地指出，这已经脱离了政治范畴，蜕变成了纯粹的邪教狂热。
- **法则28：大胆行动（Enter action with boldness）与制造宏大场面**：特朗普深谙以强势、大胆的姿态介入局势，并善于制造引人入胜的戏剧化奇观。但格林同时指出，特朗普在精准利用部分法则的同时，也公然违背了许多其他至关重要的权力法则。
---
### [02:09:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7756s) 身份认同的双刃剑与法则48“化为无形”
在节目赞助商环节之后，话题转向了自我认知与身份建构。巴特利特分享了自己在圣诞假期期间对“身份认同”（Identity）这一议题的反思。他指出，拥有一种固定的身份固然能带来某种归属和功能性，但也很容易演变成沉重的枷锁——正如格林在访谈开篇提到的，许多人在三四十岁时陷入中年危机，正是因为他们彻底被“成功会计师”这类职业标签和固定的社交圈锁死。巴特利特联想到《权力的48条法则》中的最终法则——**法则48：化为无形（Assume formlessness）**，并向格林请教该如何看待身份认同的利弊。格林赞同地表示，保持开放与流动性至关重要，不应过早用狭隘的框架将自己的思想与人生禁锢起来。
### [02:10:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=7800s) 超越狭隘标签：作为“世界公民”的博大身份认同
罗伯特·格林（Robert Greene）深入探讨了当下人们对自己身份的狭隘定义。他指出，现代人往往喜欢给自己贴上极其具体且僵化的标签——“我是个律师”、“我是右翼特朗普支持者”或“我是个创业者”。然而，人的本质远比这些浅薄的名词丰富得多。他坦言自己相信古老概念中的“灵魂”（Soul）——那是一种生来俱来的性格底色、人格特质与尊严感，无法简单地用白人、黑人、左派、右派或职业身份来界定。格林打趣说，这听起来或许像约翰·列侬（John Lennon）在《Imagine》里唱的那样感性，但他确实始终视自己为“世界公民”乃至“宇宙的公民”。
出于这种宏大的视角，格林对人类历史上各种多元的文化与宗教抱有极大的热情，无论是西非的约鲁巴宗教（Yoruba religion），还是佛教与伊斯兰教，都让他由衷着迷。他特别提到在新书中大量描写的阿兹特克文明（Aztec culture）。尽管他在血缘上不是墨西哥人，与这段历史没有基因层面的关联，但他作为同类的人类个体，对其产生了极其强烈的共鸣。谈及被西班牙征服者彻底摧毁的特诺奇蒂特兰城（Tenochtitlan），格林言语间充满惋惜与赞叹：那曾是一座足以与意大利威尼斯相媲美的人类建筑奇迹，第一批踏上那里的征服者甚至惊呼宛如置身童话；但如今的墨西哥城地表几乎荡然无存。他感叹道，如果我们能抽离现实的琐碎，意识到所有人皆同根同源、并不存在本质上的族裔鸿沟，就能瓦解如今肆虐的党派偏见与狭隘身份之争：
- **共同根源**：全人类的文化与命运紧密交织，放下琐碎的身份标签是解决全球性挑战（如气候变化、保护地球留给后代）的认知前提。
- **自我认同**：格林不依赖“加州人”、“洛杉矶人”、“犹太人”或“美国人”等地理与族裔标签确立自我，而是将自己定义为漫长人类浩瀚历史的承载者。
- **自我调侃**：“我知道这听起来一点也不像写出《权力的48条法则》（The 48 Laws of Power）的那个人，请原谅我这一点。”
---
### [02:13:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8027s) 创作《崇高法则》：在心智日渐狭隘的时代重燃敬畏
当主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及他正在撰写的新书《崇高法则》（*The Law of the Sublime*）的初衷时，格林解释说，他每一本书的诞生都源自对抗特定时代危机的紧迫感：写《权力的48条法则》是因为当时的人们太天真；写《诱惑的艺术》是因为大众不懂两性博弈的心理；写《战争的33条战略》是因为人们在战略上极其拙劣；写《精通》是因为世人遗忘了打磨技艺的路径；写《人性法则》是因为人们不擅长处理人际复杂性。而当下的核心危机是——**我们的大脑与心智正变得越来越狭隘、越来越萎缩**。人们终日沉溺于琐碎、平庸且愚蠢的网络争吵，与此同时，前沿科学却正在揭示宇宙中最不可思议的奇迹：大爆炸最初几分钟的图景、黑洞内部的照片，以及正在逼近的生命起源之谜。
格林希望借由《崇高法则》打开读者的双眼并扩张人类的意识。书中探讨了多个维度的“崇高感”：
- **物种间的崇高（Interspecies Sublime）**：人类作为目前已知唯一的具象反思意识体，与拥有截然不同心智构造的动物之间所建立的不可思议的情感联结。
- **童年体验**：孩提时代对世界全然敞开、充满瑰丽想象的心智状态，以及意识到“若非6000多万年前的陨石撞击灭绝恐龙，如今地球上漫步的依然是巨兽”这一生存荒诞感。
- **艺术与美学**：那些能够触发人类内心敬畏情绪的艺术杰作与视觉奇观。
- **自然与死亡**：全书最终章将直面死亡本身。格林强调，当人们跳出熟悉的陈词滥调并感知到身处21世纪的不可思议时，情感与思想才会真正打开，创造力亦会随之涌现。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 认知维度的两极反差与《崇高法则》的拯救路径
accDescr: 展示现代人心智收缩的困境与科学及崇高体验拓展意识的对比
subgraph Problem["现代危机：心智萎缩"]
A["沉溺平庸细节"] --> B["琐碎纷争与标签化"]
B --> C["意识与感知萎缩"]
end
subgraph Solution["科学突破与崇高体验"]
D["科学探索<br/>黑洞/宇宙大爆炸/生命起源"]
E["跨物种联结与大自然"]
F["艺术震撼与直面死亡"]
end
subgraph Outcome["心智解放"]
G["情感彻底打开"]
H["思维扩展与高维创造力"]
end
C -.->|"《崇高法则》介入打破局限"| Solution
D & E & F --> G --> H
```
---
### [02:16:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8190s) 艰难的执笔之路：中风后耗时六年的身体极限与突破
谈及创作的实际进度，格林毫不掩饰过程的残酷与痛苦。主持人问他能否在2026年出版，格林苦涩地坦承：“如果2026年还出不来，我真不知道自己还能不能撑到那时候。”经历了中风之后，格林无法像过去那样顺畅地键盘打字，也不能靠随意散步来解压。为了写出这本书，他被迫建立了一套极其艰难的工作流：先在两本笔记本和随处可见的便利贴上用手一笔一划写下草稿，整个桌面像复杂的“老鼠迷宫”，然后再通过口述软件录入电脑。整部书耗费了他将近六年的心血。
格林透露，自己即将完成第10章，还剩最后两章，预计年内完稿并在2026年正式出版。他直言自己的身体正在逼近极限：每写一章的前两个月还能保持呼吸放松，但一接近章节尾声，神经就会紧绷到极点；常常连续三周夜不能寐、胃部翻江倒海，不停地在内心挣扎“这行不通、这行不通”，直到迎来灵光一闪的突破。这种高强度的聚焦与自我施压让已不再年轻、经历过中风的他心力交瘁。他苦笑着说自己不是在博同情，但绝对无法再承受写一部耗时数年的大部头了。当主持人问他未来还会不会再写作时，格林幽默地表示：“会啊，下一本我要写小猫咪，或者写洛杉矶湖人队，写点简单轻松的东西。”
---
### [02:19:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8361s) 人性第一法则：人永远以貌取人
访谈切入了一个在网络上引发数百万人共鸣的犀利议题——格林曾在亚特兰大的一次演讲中提出：**人类心理学的第一法则就是人总是基于表象做评判（People judge based on appearances）**。
主持人指出，这是一个所有人明知真实却往往不敢正视的残酷现实。格林解释称，在探讨权力的博弈规则时，必须清醒地认识到：**权力是一场纯粹的心理学游戏**。在现实互动中，他人没有透视眼去探查你深层次的灵魂或善良动机，人们所有的判断、敬畏或轻蔑，全部始于你所呈现出来的表象、行为举止与外部信号。忽视这一心理规律，在现实权力世界中无异于盲人摸象。
### [02:20:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8400s) 权力不是统计数据：外表与心理学的决定性力量
罗伯特·格林指出，权力斗争与纯粹的竞技体育截然不同。在棒球等体育赛事中，胜负往往直接体现在冰冷的数据与统计指标上——比分是五比零就是五比零，胜负分明且由客观规则界定，虽然足球等项目包含一定心理战，但本质上依然依赖赛场发挥与硬实力。然而，“权力游戏”根本不是按这种逻辑运行的。
以政治选举为例，唐纳德·特朗普在与卡玛拉·哈里斯的竞争中获胜，表面上看是选票数量的差异，但选民做出投票决定的核心机制并非理性计算。几乎没有人会花上四个小时去仔细研读两人的经济政策电子表格，逐条推演各项政策对自己究竟有何利弊。绝大多数投票完全是建立在心理学感知和外在表象（Appearances）之上的——选民只是觉得某人“看起来更像一位领袖”、“似乎拥有更强的权威感”，或是单纯对其展现出的形象产生共鸣，并不会深究背后的政策细节。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 权力的表象与心理驱动机制
accDescr: 对比传统理性/硬指标评估与现实中基于表象和心理学的权力决策逻辑
subgraph Rational["理性/数据导向领域（如竞技体育）"]
A["客观统计与硬指标"] --> B["规则驱动的结果判断"]
B --> C["清晰明确的胜负边界"]
end
subgraph Power["权力与社会博弈领域"]
D["外在形象与政治技巧"] --> E["情绪共鸣与权威感知"]
E --> F["自我实现的权力预言"]
end
```
这种机制同样广泛存在于商业职场中。罗伯特·格林透露，自己曾担任过公司董事会成员，他亲眼见证过许多 CEO 的任命并不是基于他们带来了多少实际利润或多么出色的历史业绩，而是完全取决于所谓的“视觉形象”（Optics）与高超的办公室政治技巧。尽管结果（Results）最终依然重要，且在长远来看不可或缺，但权力法则的核心始终在于理解人性的心理机制，并懂得如何扮演好自己的角色：
- **切勿功高盖主（Never outshine the master）**：精心营造出尊重权威、自愿服从的表象，让上位者感到安全与优越。
- **言多必失，言简意赅（Always say less than necessary）**：戴上强大者的面具，通过克制言语展示从容与自控力。
- **不惜一切代价吸引关注（Court attention at all costs）**：懂得采取何种行为能让众人的目光与注意力精准聚焦于自身。
- **切勿构筑孤立自闭的堡垒（Do not build fortresses）**：深知孤立的形象极其危险，必须在群体中维持流动感与同盟。
- **扮演完美的弄臣（Play the perfect courtier）**：在群体情境中巧妙管理人际距离与自身展现的面貌。
外在形象不仅是权力的伪装，它本身就是一种能够自我实现的预言（Self-fulfilling prophecy）。
---
### [02:22:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8563s) 权力的非语言密码：松弛、凝视与双重标准
人类从本质上讲依然是一种高度受本能支配的“社会性动物”，因此在日常互动中，大量关于领导力与权力的判断都是通过非语言沟通（Nonverbal communication）在潜意识层面完成的。罗伯特·格林描摹了两个气场截然不同的人走进房间时的典型反差：
一个内在拥有真正权力感的人，在会议室里往往表现得极为松弛。他们的肢体舒展自如，身体可以随意安放在任何位置，眼神拥有极其聚焦的指向性，并且能够坦然、直接地与房间里的每一个人对视。相比之下，内心虚弱、缺乏安全感的人往往全身紧绷、充满戒备，眼神不断游移闪躲，并且会不自觉地频繁用手触摸自己的面部、把玩头发。这种通过自我触碰来缓解焦虑的行为，在肢体语言学中正是内心缺乏安全感和力量感的明确信号。自信与个人魅力的本质，就是那种坚信自己拥有力量、并自然而然向外辐射的气场。
然而，罗伯特·格林也无奈地承认，这种基于外表的权力游戏在男女之间存在着明显的不公与双重标准：
- **女性面临的困境**：在男性身上被视为沉稳、有力的肢体语言和果决神态，转移到女性身上时，往往会被外界带有偏见地解读为“刻薄”、“恶毒（A bitch）”或难以接近。
- **外貌评判的重心失衡**：职场与社会对女性外表的苛求远超过对其内在威仪的审视，这使得女性在利用权力表象进行博弈时面临更为复杂的障碍。
为了说明这种心理投射的威力，格林提到了《权力的48条法则》中的一条核心定律：“行事若帝王，方能得帝王之遇（Act like a king to be treated like one）”。他以克里斯托弗·哥伦布的传奇经历为例：哥伦布原本只是一个杂货商或普通家庭的孩子，但他凭借由内而外的笃定气度，成功让西班牙王室相信自己出身于高贵的世家。他虽然在身份上大肆行骗，但他彻底融入并展现了贵族阶层的举止与自信，最终让王室深信不疑，并拨给他巨额资金扬帆远航。
---
### [02:25:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8721s) 从“假装成功”到威廉·詹姆斯的“仿佛”策略
当主持人史蒂文·巴特利特询问这是否意味着我们可以“假装成功，直到真正成功（Fake it till you make it）”时，格林给出了严谨的界定：这种方法在一定限度内确实有效，但如果你完全没有真才实学、无法兑现最终结果，现实早晚会拆穿这种虚妄。假象和炒作或许能为你打开敲门砖，但若想立足，必须结合其他法则——例如“步步为营，深谋远虑，预见最终结局（Plan all the way to the end）”。
至于那种能在椅子上安然自得、直视他人双眼的真实自信究竟从何而来，格林分析了两种主要源头：
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 威廉·詹姆斯的“仿佛”心理转化机制
accDescr: 展示生理外在行为如何反向塑造内在心理状态，并最终向外辐射权威
subgraph Loop["行为到心理的反向塑造"]
direction TB
A["外在生理行为<br/>（挺拔身姿、微笑、从容视线）"] --> B["内在心理机制感知<br/>（调动积极情绪与掌控感）"]
B --> C["自我认同确立<br/>（产生真实的自信与配得感）"]
C --> D["外向权威气场辐射<br/>（被他人解读为有力量与可信）"]
D -.->|正向反馈强化| A
end
```
1. **先天的近乎偏执的狂热**：有些人从小便在内心深处坚信自己生而不凡、命中注定成就大业。这种心态虽然带有某种近乎疯狂的自我确信，但只要配合实际执行力，就能赋予其如王子般天生高贵的威仪。
2. **后天的战果积累**：对于大多数普通人而言，最坚实的自信来自实打实的成果（Results）与历史记录。即便哥伦布当初在身世上造假，但他出海前已具备扎实的航海技能与专业见识，这构成了他内心强大的底气支撑。
对于缺乏底气的人，格林着重引介了 20 世纪初美国杰出心理学家威廉·詹姆斯（William James）提出的“仿佛策略（As-if strategies）”：
- **身体先于心理**：詹姆斯坚信心理状态源自生理机制。正如一个人即使心情不好，只要主动做出微笑的肌肉动作，神经系统便会反向唤醒愉悦的情绪体验。
- **具身认知**：如果你在身体姿态、动作模式和呼吸节奏上，完全“仿佛”自己已经手握重权、值得一切成功那样去行动，这种躯体经验就会逐渐渗入你的潜意识，最终重塑你的心理现实并向外自然散发威慑力。
---
### [02:28:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=8888s) 情感记忆检索与绝地反击的“大胆行动”
对于那些深陷自卑、自认毫无自信支撑点的人，罗伯特·格林给出了电影演员常用的“情绪记忆调动法”作为实用解药。
在影视表演中，演员若需要展现深切的悲痛，会主动调取个人记忆库中最真实的痛苦瞬间（如至亲的离世），以此唤醒真挚的情绪体验。普通人同样可以运用这一机制来寻找力量：几乎每个人的过往岁月中，都曾有过某些闪光的微小胜利——哪怕只是高中时代在体育赛场上完成了一次漂亮的触地得分，或是某次成功解决危机的瞬间。在面临挑战或心虚时，主动在脑海中重温那个时刻的掌控感，那份真实的自豪与笃定便会迅速回流到当下的身体之中。
在访谈的尾声，当史蒂文询问那些在当今复杂世界中感到迷茫、随波逐流、失去目标与力量感的人最应当牢记哪一条人性法则时，罗伯特·格林毫不犹豫地指出了《权力的48条法则》第二十八条：**“行动时要勇往直前、大胆果决（Enter action with boldness）”**。
格林强调，怯懦（Timid）是事情溃败的核心根源。如果你在缺乏自信、心怀畏缩的状态下开启一个项目，这种内在的疑虑与迟疑就会在行动的每一个细节中显露无遗，甚至在事情尚未真正发生之前，便已经注定了它的失败结局。大胆不仅是一种姿态，更是击破虚弱感、撕开生活阻力最具穿透力的心理武器。
### [02:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9000s) 大胆与自信的力量：世界会为坚定前行的人让路
进入任何事业或行动时，姿态和能量场至关重要。罗伯特·格林强调，人人都崇敬大胆果敢的人（"Everybody loves the bold"），哪怕这种大胆举动带有一点愚蠢或最终面临失败，它依然能为你赢得所有人的注目与敬意。如果一个人整天只是夸夸其谈两三年后要做的播客，别人只会感到乏味；相反，大家钦佩的是那个哪怕面对无人喝彩的风险也直接动手去做的硬汉。格林回忆起早年曾采访过一位杂志创办人，对方在21世纪初创立了一本极其成功的杂志，名字就叫《Bad Ideas》（馊主意）。当格林问及灵感来源时，创办人坦承是他母亲当时警告他“办杂志简直是个馊主意”，于是他索性将计就计用作刊名，配合新颖的内容与反常规的营销大获成功。
当今社会充斥着雷同与胆怯，每个人都在战战兢兢地试图模仿他人，这种恐惧正在扼杀创造力。格林坦言自己虽不盲目崇拜埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk），但马斯克在行事上的“极度大胆”确实屡试不爽——他绝不会仅止步于发射普通近地火箭，而是直接将目光锁定在送人类去火星。这种巨大的野心反而迅速汇聚了资源和支持，因为世界总会下意识地为无畏者让出道路。
斯蒂芬·巴特利特深有共鸣地分享了一个亲身经历：他曾在纽约参加全球公民音乐节（Global Citizen Festival），现场众星云集，包括碧昂丝（Beyoncé）等巨星。当时在舞台后方VIP区的斯蒂芬有一个喝得烂醉的朋友。这位朋友突然拉起斯蒂芬的手，径直冲向通往艺人禁区的通道，神情笃定、大步流星。守在门口的两名体型壮硕的安保人员竟然没有阻拦，甚至没有查验通行证，而是直接退到两旁放行，因为他们潜意识里觉得“走得这么坚定的人必然属于这里”。这位朋友后来甚至大摇大摆地闯进了一位亚洲国家元首的专属更衣室。斯蒂芬当天早晨在跑步时也如法炮制，为了借用餐厅洗手间，他带着十足的笃定神态径直穿过一家正在严格核验胸牌的酒店大型会议厅，全程无人上前拦阻。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 大胆与迟疑的行为模式对比
accDescr: 对比果敢大胆与胆怯迟疑在人际互动和现实反馈中的两种截然相反的连锁反应。
subgraph BOLD["果敢大胆（Boldness）"]
B1["展现坚定信念与气场"] --> B2["击碎犹豫并建立权威"]
B2 --> B3["外界主动退让与认可"]
B3 --> B4["创造正向自我实现预言"]
end
subgraph TIMID["胆怯迟疑（Hesitation）"]
T1["畏缩试探与自我怀疑"] --> T2["暴露出破绽与脆弱"]
T2 --> T3["招致捕食者环伺与轻视"]
T3 --> T4["陷入被边缘化与失败"]
end
```
- 格林作品中关于“大胆”的核心金句：
- “雄狮只在迟疑的猎物周围盘旋”（Lions circle the hesitant prey）。
- “大胆能震慑人心，而敬畏能确立权威”（Boldness strikes fear and fear creates authority）。
- “怀着半吊子的心去走一半的路，只会挖下更深的坟墓”（Going halfway with half a heart digs the deeper grave）。
- “迟疑制造缝隙，大胆抹平鸿沟”（Hesitation creates gaps. Boldness obliterates them）。
- “无畏的魄力让你脱颖而出”（Audacity separates you from the herd）。
- 格林直言，若自己的作品能留下某种精神遗产，他希望这世界少一些胆小的野兔，多一些大胆的雄狮。
---
### [02:34:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9264s) 谈判的要义与敢于开出高价的底气
谈及商业与创业中的魄力，斯蒂芬遗憾自己早年创业时未曾更加大胆。他感叹当时若有人告诫他“无论向他人描绘什么梦想，直接放大十倍；无论寻求多少融资，直接开价十倍”，境况或许会完全不同。格林非常赞同这一点，并将此法则延伸至所有博弈与商务谈判之中。
在谈判桌上，如果心虚胆怯地开价20万美元，往往就只能得到20万美元甚至更低；但若是底气十足、信念坚定地要求100万美元，即便最终妥协退让到50万美元，也依然比最初怯懦开价所能获得的结果多出整整30万美元。格林提醒大家，必须在内心深处相信自己开出的高价是合理且名副其实的，并以绝对不容置疑的信念感传达出来，这种从容与确信往往会让对手在心理层面产生动摇，进而争取到极大的溢价空间。
---
### [02:35:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9325s) 十年后的愿景：重拾行走的奇迹与对平凡生活的敬畏
节目进入传统环节：由上一位嘉宾为格林留下未知命题。纸片上的问题是：“闭上眼睛，想象十年后的自己：你在哪里？正在做什么？与谁在一起？”
因被蜜蜂或黄蜂蜇伤诱发中风导致行动受限的格林，在短暂沉思后给出了极其深情而谦逊的回答。他没有描绘宏大的商业版图或荣耀，而是希望十年后的自己依然健康活着，行走功能有所好转。他最渴望的画面是与妻子并肩而行，重新爬上一座山丘——远足是他一生至爱，但在中风后被彻底剥夺。格林眼含泪光地坦言，如果十年后真的能靠自己的双腿走上一段山路，他一定会激动得痛哭流涕，那是常人难以体会的欣喜若狂。
面对四肢健全的普通人，格林呼吁大家停止对日常机能的麻木视之。格林提到，坐在办公室窗前时，他经常看着外面的人牵着狗散步、骑自行车或慢跑，邻居在车道上修车、听着音乐。在常人看来平淡无奇甚至乏味的琐事，在失去行动能力的人眼里却是无与伦比的美好与奇迹。
人类每一次看似轻松的迈步，本质上都是单腿支撑身体的精细平衡动作。正常人每秒钟都在不自觉地完成这一奇迹，而中风后的格林每迈出一步，都必须在大脑中高度集中精力去调动左腿维持平衡。格林告诫所有拥有健康体魄的人，应当在日常的一举一动中深切感知活着本身的恩赐，不要等到失去了才追悔莫及。
---
### [02:38:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9520s) 给年轻自己的低语与神经质焦虑的价值
斯蒂芬问格林，如果能跨越时空回到遭遇中风之前，向20岁或年轻时的自己低语一句话，他会说些什么。格林表示，如果面对20岁时的自己，他会温柔地告诉那个年轻人：“不要胡思乱想，一切都会水到渠成；做真实的自己，别后悔任何经历，因为所有弯路都是最好的铺垫。”
而如果是面对34岁那个在现实中挣扎徘徊的格林，他会说：“千万不要放弃，一切正在归位，你将拥有不可思议的人生。未来你不仅会见到童年偶像史蒂夫·汪达（Stevie Wonder），鲍勃·迪伦（Bob Dylan）会在书中提及你并精读你的著作，你还会与说唱巨星五角（50 Cent）成为好友，甚至受到多国政要接见，前方是一片你做梦也想不到的壮阔风景。”
但格林话锋一转，笑着自嘲道，幸好当年的自己不知道这些预言。如果早早知道结局圆满，自己或许就会变得懒散松懈，失去那种如饥似渴的创作冲动。正是当年挥之不去的自我怀疑、挣扎痛苦与适度的“神经质焦虑”（neurotic energy），逼迫他将生命全部的心血倾注进书页之中。
对谈尾声，斯蒂芬高度赞扬了格林在创作上近乎痛苦的精益求精，并感谢格林公开自身中风遭遇所带来的深刻启迪。格林对此表达了由衷谢意，称这是他第三次登上该播客，每次录制前的清晨总会莫名充满好心情。节目的最后，斯蒂芬向听众发起呼吁，指出常客听众中仍有53%尚未点击订阅，承诺团队将持续倾听反馈、邀请顶尖嘉宾，以更高质量的对话回馈支持。
## Notable quotes
> [14:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=859s) 如果你突然跟我说你一直在构思一档播客，我会说：立刻动起来，明天就把播客录出来。哪怕搞砸了，你在这三个月失败里学到的东西，也远比你空想两年、或者背负巨额债务去读五年 MBA 学到的多得多。在做中学习，在失败中学习。 — Robert Greene
> [36:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2218s) 乔布斯曾问我：‘你今天对多少件事说了不？’我当时为了让他放心，便列举了几件自己拒绝掉的事。但乔布斯一眼就看穿了，因为那些事情本身我压根就毫无兴趣，拒绝它们根本算不上真正的牺牲。真正的专注，是当你从骨子里深信某件事是一个绝妙无比的念头、甚至每天早晨醒来脑海中都在盘旋着它时，你依然能够狠下心对它坚决说‘不’，因为你必须全神贯注于当下最重要的那件事。 — Steven Bartlett 引述 Jony Ive
> [40:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=2400s) 人们从不关注那些布满血泪的硬核磨砺，我们只看到成功，并轻易被成功的光彩所诱惑。 — Robert Greene
> [01:01:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=3679s) 做自己想做的怪人，这是一种多大的释怀！ — Robert Greene
> [01:17:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=4623s) 你不是一台该死的 AI 机器！你不是聊天机器人，不是一串算法，也不是扎克伯格用来调配数据流的一个微小数据包！ — Robert Greene
> [01:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=5400s) 有些人演得好，有些人演得糟，但你就是一个演员。 — Robert Greene
> [01:43:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=6229s) 掠夺者最喜欢猎物（Predators love prey）。如果你一味妥协退让，只会招来变本加厉的霸凌。 — Robert Greene
> [02:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9000s) 雄狮只在迟疑的猎物周围盘旋（Lions circle the hesitant prey）。 — Robert Greene
> [02:30:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg&t=9000s) 迟疑制造缝隙，大胆抹平鸿沟（Hesitation creates gaps. Boldness obliterates them）。 — Robert Greene
## Mentioned
Robert Greene, Steven Bartlett, Donald Trump, Elon Musk, Steve Jobs, Jony Ive, 50 Cent (Curtis Jackson), Ryan Holiday, Joost Elfers, Alfred Adler, Howard Gardner, Sigmund Freud, Derren Brown, Mark Zuckerberg, Yasujirō Ozu, Daniel Ortega, Stevie Wonder, Bob Dylan, Lewis Howes, Chris Williamson, Jay Shetty, Aristotle Onassis, Jacqueline Kennedy Onassis, Dov Charney, American Apparel, Goldman Sachs, 《权力的48条法则》（The 48 Laws of Power）, 《精通》（Mastery）, 《人性法则》（The Laws of Human Nature）, 《诱惑的艺术》（The Art of Seduction）, 《战争的33条战略》（The 33 Strategies of War）, 《第50条法则》（The 50th Law）, 《崇高法则》（The Law of the Sublime）, 《被讨厌的勇气》, 《智能的结构》（Frames of Mind: The Theory of Multiple Intelligences）, 《错不在我》（Mistakes Were Made, But Not by Me）
## Video description
Are you being manipulated without knowing it? Robert Greene reveals the silent tactics of influence and how to take back control. Robert Greene, returning for his third time on DOAC, is a world-renowned expert on human psychology and behaviour. He is also a multiple New York Times bestselling-author of 7 books such as, ‘The 48 Laws of Power’, ‘The Art of Seduction’ and ‘The 33 Strategies of War’.
00:00 Intro
02:03 The Most Important Decision of Your Life
04:41 Is There a Strategy for Finding Your Purpose?
09:41 Is It Harder to Find Your Purpose When You're Older?
14:19 The Only Way to Learn Anything!
15:38 Why Do We Procrastinate?
16:59 We Need to Develop Toughness and Set Limits
19:56 Skills Are the Gold of Today's World
22:50 The Longer Road vs. Shortcuts
26:22 Channeling Your Dark Side
30:20 How Important Is Focus for Mastery?
41:15 Too Many People Want Quick Returns
43:24 The Different Types of Intelligence
46:54 Controlling Your Envy Is Important
52:17 Use Your Envy to Become Better
54:01 Why Mastery Is Still a Successful Book
55:42 What Is the Solution to Loneliness and Powerlessness?
01:01:19 The Difference Between Being Lonely and Alone
01:09:37 How Pornography Hooks You
01:15:59 Ads
01:17:03 Are We Breeding a Culture of Lower Motivation Because of Porn?
01:21:32 What Do We Not Want to Admit About Human Nature?
01:24:17 The Narcissist in Us
01:27:09 Dealing With Narcissists
01:28:36 Do We Have to Be Actors to Get Ahead?
01:30:30 Do You Need Lies and Manipulation to Succeed in Life?
01:33:04 The Contribution Score
01:34:57 Let Others Do the Work, but Take the Credit
01:39:31 The Importance of Self-Control
01:43:49 What to Do When Injustice Is Done to Us
01:48:17 Predators Love Prey
01:49:20 Are We Going Through Dangerous Times?
01:57:04 Wokeism and Trump: Which Side Got Things Right and Wrong?
02:02:35 The Power of the Masses Can Be Dangerous
02:05:44 Are We Caught Up in Maniac Solutions?
02:08:22 Ads
02:09:16 What Does Our Identity Mean to Us?
02:13:47 Our Minds Are Getting Smaller!
02:19:21 Judging Based on Appearances
02:22:43 How Does Someone With Power Behave?
02:25:21 Can You Fake It Until You Make It?
02:25:59 How to Be Confident
02:28:08 How to Believe in Yourself When You Don't
02:34:24 What to Do in Negotiations
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[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=19_sGcrsWhg)
Source quotes
[14:19] Robert Greene: 如果你突然跟我说你一直在构思一档播客，我会说：立刻动起来，明天就把播客录出来。哪怕搞砸了，你在这三个月失败里学到的东西，也远比你空想两年、或者背负巨额债务去读五年 MBA 学到的多得多。在做中学习，在失败中学习。
[36:58] Steven Bartlett 引述 Jony Ive: 乔布斯曾问我：‘你今天对多少件事说了不？’我当时为了让他放心，便列举了几件自己拒绝掉的事。但乔布斯一眼就看穿了，因为那些事情本身我压根就毫无兴趣，拒绝它们根本算不上真正的牺牲。真正的专注，是当你从骨子里深信某件事是一个绝妙无比的念头、甚至每天早晨醒来脑海中都在盘旋着它时，你依然能够狠下心对它坚决说‘不’，因为你必须全神贯注于当下最重要的那件事。
[40:00] Robert Greene: 人们从不关注那些布满血泪的硬核磨砺，我们只看到成功，并轻易被成功的光彩所诱惑。
[61:19] Robert Greene: 做自己想做的怪人，这是一种多大的释怀！
[77:03] Robert Greene: 你不是一台该死的 AI 机器！你不是聊天机器人，不是一串算法，也不是扎克伯格用来调配数据流的一个微小数据包！
[90:00] Robert Greene: 有些人演得好，有些人演得糟，但你就是一个演员。
[103:49] Robert Greene: 掠夺者最喜欢猎物（Predators love prey）。如果你一味妥协退让，只会招来变本加厉的霸凌。
[150:00] Robert Greene: 雄狮只在迟疑的猎物周围盘旋（Lions circle the hesitant prey）。
[150:00] Robert Greene: 迟疑制造缝隙，大胆抹平鸿沟（Hesitation creates gaps. Boldness obliterates them）。
Source quotes
[2:03] Robert Greene: It is the most important decision in your life, figuring out what you were destined for, why you were born, what you were created for, what makes you unique.
[2:03] Robert Greene: To know who you are, to know what you were meant to do in life... requires a lot of reflection on yourself, self-awareness, self-knowledge. You have to go inward.
[22:50] Robert Greene: Money is not what matters to you. Because when you're in your 20s, you can starve, you can live on less food, you can have it a little tough because you're young... take the longer road, which is the acquisition of skills.
[35:00] Steven Bartlett / Jony Ive: What focus means is saying no to something that you, with every bone in your body, you think is a phenomenal idea... but you say no to it because you're focusing on something else.
[43:24] Robert Greene: Intelligence is also bodily intelligence... somebody like Kobe Bryant in basketball is as intelligent as Albert Einstein, but in a different way.
[54:01] Robert Greene: I do attribute the success not necessarily to my brilliance or the brilliance of the book, but to the fact that people are feeling more and more helpless.
[66:00] Robert Greene: All my worst experiences can go into this book. It all has purpose for it... I was literally at that moment before it happened, pretty much near rock bottom.
[69:37] Robert Greene: Pornography is disenchanting you from everything. It's making it all mechanical and ugly... It's almost as if the two humans involved are like machine parts.
[77:03] Robert Greene: You're a human being with a body, with physical problems, with hormones, with emotions that are coursing through you. And you have to become a physical creature, which means doing things in the world, taking action.
[85:00] Robert Greene: That's the great thing about being a human being: you can do two things at once. You can be consciously playing the game of 'I'm not going to outshine him because he's going to fire me... But at the same time, in my head, I'm going: that person isn't better than me.'
[88:36] Robert Greene: If everyone went around saying exactly what they felt about the other person, no one would ever get along. We would have killed ourselves off by now.
[109:20] Robert Greene: Being emotional isn't masculinity. Masculinity is self-control... Weak people can't criticize themselves.
[129:16] Robert Greene: Our minds are getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. We're so absorbed in things that are so unimportant, so banal, so trivial, so stupid... I want to open your eyes and expand your consciousness instead of shrink it.
[148:20] Robert Greene: Just don't think about it, Robert. Everything is going to come out okay. Just be who you are. Don't regret anything, it's all working out for the best.
Original transcript
[0:00] Everybody has narcissistic tendencies, and we're all self-absorbed, but nobody wants to admit it. It's always somebody else. It's always Donald Trump. It's always Elon Musk. But everyone has a manipulative side. There are no saints in this world. But can you use it productively? Yes, most definitely. There's deep narcissists who are very problematic, and there's healthy narcissists. And knowing the distinction between the two will help save you years of misery. What if I'm dealing with a narcissist? I want you to do the following. I want you to... Robert Greene is one of the most influential writers in history. Unraveling the secrets of power, strategy, and human psychology that are essential for purpose, resilience, and success. What is it about human nature that we just don't want to admit? One is that envy is deeply ingrained in all of us. In fact, always wanting to be better and superior to others is the most motivating factor of 90% of human behavior. But if you don't admit it to yourself, that ugly emotion is like a nuclear bomb to all aspects of life. It will seize you by the throat and make you miserable. But there's also understanding things like we all judge on appearances, that everyone has a dark side, and that we are all actors. And I will get into the nitty gritty of all of them because it really about how powerful people use those traits for their success People are lonelier than ever And when you look at the impact that having it equal to smoking 15 cigarettes a day What is the antidote for this I empathize with it very much so because when I was younger I was losing in the game of life. I was very depressed and even suicidal but what lifted me out was... This has always blown my mind a little bit. 53% of you that listen to this show regularly haven't yet subscribed to this show so could I ask you for a favor before we start. If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback, we'll find the guests that you want me to speak to, and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much. Robert, at this moment in time, what do you believe your followers, your fans, the people that love your books, what do you believe that they're struggling with the most? And I'm asking this question because I imagine you get thousands of DMs and messages from these people. What are the common themes Well the most common question I get particularly from people in their 20s is they don really know where they headed They don know what their career is what I call in mastery their life task And I talk a lot about it in interviews and in the book Mastery. And I make the point that it is the most important decision in your life, figuring out what you were destined for, why you were born, what you were created for, what makes you unique. and I say that everything from that realization from that understanding kind of stems from that your sense of fulfillment your happiness everything will come from that one realization and a lot of young people are very confused right now and I don't blame them these are very very confusing times that they're going through much more confusing than anything I had to deal with particularly I think the influence of technology and social media and what I mean by that is to To know who you are, to know what you were meant to do in life, why you were born, what makes you unique, requires a lot of reflection on yourself, self-awareness, self-knowledge. You have to go inward. And when your attention is always focused so much on what other people are doing what other people are saying what they think is hot what they think is cool you become kind of a stranger to yourself right so when i talk about that concept to them it like it sounds interesting robert but i have no idea what that is i don't know what my my life's task is now that's maybe 30 or 40 percent of the emails that i get it's quite high but it's not all of them but it is a trend i've noticed with young people who are going through i think very very confusing times and uh i'm very empathetic to it because I was actually someone who was quite lost in my 20s. And I know the pain that that can cause. Not feeling like your life has any meaning. You know, I think that's something that really is tormenting a lot of young people. What does life mean? What will give me a sense of meaning, right, to what I'm doing, to where I'm headed, to my daily experiences? And not having that is deeply disturbing. And I've been through that myself. I think I'm getting a lot of that kind of feedback and a lot of those emails among others. And is there a strategy that young people or really anybody that feels lost or aimless in their life should and is able to deploy to find their purpose to find the direction the thing they should be aiming at? Well, you know, you have to get out of this, this
[5:00] This way of thinking that so many people have, which everything has to be simple and linear, and I'm heading in this direction, there's got to be a solution, like I'm hacking my way to the truth. Life doesn't work that way. Life is very complex. So I can't give you a single track answer to finding your life purpose, you as an individual. But I can give you kind of clues. I can kind of direct you towards certain paths that have worked for me and that have worked for hundreds of thousands of other people who've become masters or very successful in their field. And the first thing is you have to go inward. So you have to resist the pull that our culture gives you. You have to also really want this. That's probably what it really comes down to. Are you unhappy? Are you frustrated? Are you hitting kind of rock bottom? Is this a turning point in your life where you realize if I keep going this way in five years, It's going to be really serious. Okay, it has to be important to you and you have to have a sense of urgency. And with that sense of urgency, you have to make some decisions. And one of the decisions that absolutely essential is to pay less attention to what other people are doing to pay less attention to what other people are saying to pay less attention to what people are telling you you should be doing and to go inward and think about yourself and think about what you love and what your interests are They have nothing to do with what people are doing on social media, the things that grab you, that excite you deeply inside in a way that's almost irresistible. Now, for me, I can say that it was always been writing, okay? And I just couldn't figure out what kind of writing. But there's also things like when I ever read anything that has to do with ancient history, particularly the origins of humanity, hundreds of, you know, tens of thousands of years ago, I am so excited. I can read every single article about that, every discovery that takes place in Africa about our origins. It just puts my mind in a spin to think that this is who we were 100,000 years ago and this is who we are now. I want to know more. That's like one of these things that hits you in the gut. Well, the people out there, you have that. There's something like that. You had it when you were a child. You had it when you were two, three, four years old, five years old, and you've lost it because you're listening too much to other people. So it kind of like archaeology would be the metaphor You have to dig and dig and dig and find those bones and those relics and those artifacts from your past the things that really excite you as well as the things that you hate Now, if I were to go, you know, kind of do a reverse engineering, which I do with a lot of people who are successful like yourself, I could go back and kind of find that with you where that hit you because you had a particular path that led you to doing these podcasts. I know it wasn't a straight line. You deviated. You were in some other job that you hated. And then you slowly found your way. Each of those stories, there's a lesson for people, right? And that's what I compiled in mastery. but it all begins from a sense of urgency. I can't go on this way. I have to find something that I love. When you're 20 or 21, maybe you don't feel that urgency because you're so young. You know, you look good. You have lots of energy. The world's kind of open to you. But you have to be careful because time passes really quickly. Those years in your 20s, they go by faster than you think. And if you turn 30 and you never thought about this, and you're kind of been wandering around trying things, it starts to get a little difficult much harder for you So it better if you have that sense of urgency when you 21 or 22 And the other thing I would say is you don learn anything if you not excited by it So you have to have a sense of fun and adventure about this. So discovering what your life's task can't be this dreary, boring thing that Robert's advocating you do. Oh, I have to spend time with myself. I have to look, you know, do a journal, blah, blah, blah. No, it's fun. It's an adventure. Trying different things that fit into this general shape of what you were destined for. It's a blast. You know, when I was in my 20s, I had more fun than anybody. I had an amazing time. It was the best years of my life. I was trying all sorts of different things. I was exploring. I was traveling. I had adventures. So I don't want your life to be boring. I want you to learn. I want you to have adventures. But you have to have a sense of direction, a sense of purpose to guide that kind of those different adventures that you go on. Do you think it's harder to find your sense of purpose and what you're deeply connected to as you get older? Yeah, I think so. Your mind gets a little bit more rigid. You think you know all of the answers, right? But what happens with a lot of people, I also get correspondence from, or let's say,
[10:00] turning 40 or even a little bit older, and they're coming to those crossroads, is even much more painful than when you're in your 20s, because there's a sense of regret. There's a sense that you've wasted your time. And to get back to a path that will suit you can be very difficult, as you mentioned. But there's also another side to that, which is you probably have been learning some skills in your life. You probably have had some experience that have changed you. Because when you're 21, 22, you don't know the world. You don't know people. You think you know everything, but you don't know anything, right? You've never had any experiences in life. You never had to suffer. Maybe you have, but not really suffering like you do when you get older, okay? So you're 40. You've had tough experiences. You've been hardened. You're not so fragile, and you've learned things. If you change your mindset at that age and you go, I'm going to take what I have, my experiences, my skills, what I've learned, and I'm going to redirect it towards something more exciting for me, then it will work for you. Right. But as you say it can be harder because you more set in your ways And you built a life You built a network You built a reputation for being this thing whether it lawyer doctor dentist whatever it might be And so there an element of shedding that might have to occur Shedding people, shedding a city that you live in, shedding a way that people know you, an income. And that's deeply difficult. I think some people would prefer the certain misery of their current situation to the uncertainty and the shedding that occurs when they go in search of something else. Yeah, but I mean, the pain that you feel when you get older and, you know, we humans have very active minds. We're gifted with the most powerful organ in the entire universe, the human brain. The billions of possible connections in our brain is greater than anything in the entire universe. It is the most amazing instrument and our brains are very active. And when you get older and you don't have anything to put your brain onto and things are slowing down, you don't realize that that's making you depressed. You don't realize that the fact that you haven't been able to fulfill what you were meant to fulfill is actually the source of your misery and unhappiness. You will blame it on other people You will blame it on the world You will blame it on politics You won look at yourself and realize that it comes from you And the sadness comes from you and the fact that you not maximizing you not exploiting this gift that you were given So it might be difficult to shed all of that But I've talked to people, I'd say more like around 30 years old, who say, Robert, I've had this horrible job. You know, I'm in a fast food place or something. I don't remember what it was. Or I'm a barista or whatever. You know, I'm so unhappy. I have a wife and I have two kids. What do I do? Right? And so I go into their misery a little bit and then I say, okay, let's first figure out something that you think you would really want in life, something that will have an income because you have to pay for your wife and your children. You can't just go off and write poetry or become a rock star. You have to support yourself and your family. What could that possibly be? And we dig and we dig and we dig. I say, all right, we have an answer, a kind of an idea. I want you to do this following. I want you to carve out two hours or as much as you can at night where you start exploring this field on the Internet and you start considering maybe going to night school okay and taking classes that changed this course And then I want you to think of five years where you're going to be a goal five years ahead. And they tell me, overnight, just having that has changed them. Suddenly from their depression, they have hope and they feel a million times better and they have energy. Just from realizing that there is a possibility. It's going to take hard work, but there is an answer. There is a place to go. And so it changes it when you have some sense of direction. There'll be so many people listening to that now and they'll be thinking, I have a plan. I have an idea or at least a kernel of an idea, but I've spent the last three months, six months, 12 months, 18 months, two years thinking, Thinking, thinking, thinking. And not doing? And not doing. Yeah. People stop me all the time and they'll say, Steve, I'm thinking of starting a podcast. And I'll say, how long have you been thinking about this? The last two and a half years. Yeah. You know, I talk in mastery about something called a concept called learning by doing. And back in the middle ages, they used to have an apprenticeship that you would go through.
[15:00] You would learn to be a craftsman, right? You'd first go from being an apprentice to a journeyman to a master. By doing things, the brain learns. But if you never do anything, you're never going to learn. So if you suddenly said, I've been thinking about a podcast, I would say, get off your ass and start the podcast tomorrow. And it fails. You have learned so many things. You've learned more in those three months of failure than you have been two years thinking or five years of getting an MBA from some school and putting yourself in massive debt. Learn by doing. Learn by failing. Why is planning and procrastination that comes with the prolonged planning so tempting for people? Like, why do we love to plan, plan, plan, plan, plan? Because you're afraid of failure, quite honestly. I mean, Freud has a word for it in German, which means fear of success. Because this is something that afflicts a lot of adolescence. Because if you're successful, you now have responsibility. You now have a reputation You now have succeeded and your next venture could fail there pressure that comes with trying something and putting your name out there and if i don ever try anything if i don't bother if i blame the world i blame my parents i blame my education system i blame my partner this that and the other then you never have to worry you never have to have that responsibility you never have to have that fear of success and that holds people back so it's easier to not do anything and stay in your little bubble and go, God, if I only if only I had had money, I would have written this great novel. I would have done this, this or the other. It's just crap. You're trying to delude yourself and you're afraid of actually putting your neck out on the line. That's what it comes down to. It's a common syndrome among adolescents. I was reading, I think it was the book, The Courage to be Disliked, and it was talking in one of the sections about how some people would like they prefer to live in the like realm of possibility yeah and the realm of possibility is the space you live when you declare to the world that you're going to do something and be something and before you actually do it so when i tell my friends listen i'm gonna become an actor for example the year and a half where i go around saying that i live in the world of possibility where there been no feedback to disprove me yet which is nice yeah but i of getting the credit for being the type of person that aspiring to change And that like realm of possibility before you get feedback or try is a very nice place to be for some. It is. And it's very addicting and it's kind of a narcotic. But the thing is, so you've got this realm of possibility, which you could become anything. I could become an actor. I could become a great novice. I could become a CEO. I could be Elon Musk the second. But the way the world works is you don't achieve anything unless you have limits. Having limits and hitting that wall and that resistance is what makes you learn is what makes you great is how the human brain functions. And what I mean by that is, let's say you're learning the piano. You can't just start out playing anything and just doing all the notes. It's very limited what you can do, right? And you have to go within those limits and those walls and learn the first things first, and then those walls start to expand a little bit. But you're constantly pressing against limits, and those limits make you stronger and stronger. It's like when you're swimming, the resistance in the water is what makes your muscles bigger right The resistance of limits is what makes your brain bigger makes you more successful makes you learn But if all you do is live in that nebulous world of possibility you never developing you never getting any muscle you never getting any strength You're not developing life skills. It's a tough world, Stephen, you know that. People can be very cruel. It can be a very mean-spirited world. You have to have a thick skin in this world. You have to develop some toughness. And you develop that toughness by trying things out and by failing. And if you fail, you know, like my wife's in the film business and we know a lot of actors. An actor, you know, we think it's all glamorous, but it's actually like 99% rejection. People are constantly rejecting you. And they're rejecting you for things that you have no control over, like your looks, you know. And so what separates the actors who succeed and the ones who don't are those that have a bit of a tough skin. They don't take that rejection, oh, I'm so unworthy. I hate myself. Oh, the world's so awful. They go, all right, I'm going to go on to the next one. I learned what wasn't working there. And you develop some toughness. If you don't develop that toughness, you're never going to get anywhere in life. And you get it by trying and trying and working at it. And when you're in that sort of first chapter of your professional life,
[20:00] Is there anything from all of the work that you've done, the writing that you've done, that a young person should be trying to acquire? And I say that, should they be aiming at knowledge, skills, reputation, money, network? Definitely not money. Definitely not reputation. Perhaps, I mean, yeah, or fame. Perhaps network can help. But what you really want to do in this world, the 21st century in our decade, is skills. You want to be learning skills. The more skills you have, and I mean true skills. I don't mean trying something out for a year and then going on something else for another. I mean getting real skill at something, right? Whether it's in computers, whether it's in the arts, in any field. Real skill. and then if you can develop two or three skills by the time you're in your 20s and still have some fun, the world is going to open up to you because what you're going to be able to do when you turn 30 is you're going to go, I can take that skill that I learned in computers. I can take that skill I learned in media and in creating a podcast or whatever and I can create a business that going to combine the two in a way that no one has ever thought of because I a unique person The world will open up to you Skills are the gold of the 21st century And if you're seduced by money, if you think about money, you're doomed because that's not what matters in life. Because let's say you have two job offers. One is at Goldman Sachs opening position for $150,000 a year. and one is at some startup for $30,000 a year and you're living in New York and you're going to be starving. You're going to be sharing a miserable little flat somewhere in Bushwick, whatever. Take the $30,000 a year job because you're going to learn so much. You're going to be hands-on. Whereas in that other job, you're going to be lost in there. You're going to be among hundreds of other young people and you're not going to have responsibilities. Here, you're going to have responsibilities. So money is not what matters to you. Because when you're in your 20s, you can starve, you can live on less food, you can have it a little tough because you're young. I know myself, I lived, I was very poor. I lived in London had a job in London in 1984 I believe yeah 84 And I was making I think it was 30 pounds a week maybe it less than that was my starting salary and my girlfriend at the time the only thing we could eat was turnips and cauliflower cauliflower cheese was our main dish but i was 25 i can handle it so you can handle not making money and learning because that's what's most important i don't think many young people in that first first season of life, realize how long life is. So, you know, we try and take shortcuts. We try and get to the money as fast as we can. But you're telling me to take a longer road, which is the acquisition of skills, even at the cost of some of those short term rewards that are very tempting to post on my Instagram. Yeah. Well, I mean, also, you know, you look at somebody like Steve Jobs. I can relate to that because he wasn't interested in money at all. It was never the motivating factor. It's never been my motivating factor, right? I wanted to have fun and I wanted to be successful and I wanted to be able to write. He wanted to design the most beautiful pieces of technology in the world. It ended up he was like the richest man of the world at the time, but he never cared about money It wasn what motivated him I never cared about money and now I not as rich as Steve Jobs but I doing fairly well because it come to you if you play the game right If you learn the skills when you young and then you develop your own business by the time you 35 you be making four times what you would have made at that Goldman Sachs job Right. That's that's that's how the game is played these days. starting your own business, being an entrepreneur. Being an entrepreneur is the most powerful position you can attain for, aim for. Some people aren't, you know, destined for that. It's not in their DNA. But to me, that's what we should all be aiming for, to be your own boss. Because personally, I hated working for other people. But being an entrepreneur, starting your own business, one that has a niche in this world, you're going to make all the money that you'll ever need. quite painful being an entrepreneur though i think it was actually elon that said building his businesses is like chewing glass and staring into the abyss and i can relate to some degree of the businesses that i've built over the years and just the immense hardship and uncertainty and you know i guess there's at times a subtle envy for your team members who are unaware of the chaos that one has to endure to make sure everybody's paid on time and make sure everything's
[25:00] Everyone's happy. Okay, but the lesson for me in all of that is altering your sense of what pleasure and happiness is. So in the moment, it's painful, right? And we don't like pain. Nobody likes pain. I don't like pain, right? But if your sense of what pleasure is and happiness is only like here, from the present moment to here, it's going to be very hard to get out of that. But if your sense of pleasure and happiness is here, long term, yeah, then then you've got you've got power, you've got maneuverability, you have room to maneuver. And that's that's the key of the whole thing. So. OK, so you're saying that if I have a short term view on happiness, I expect it today, now and every day. Yeah. Then my life's not going to be great. But if I expect happiness to be a long term. Yeah. So, I mean, look at you now is what I'm trying to say. You're pretty happy, I imagine. you're pretty fulfilled, right? And you wouldn't have gotten there if when you were 24, whatever, you just gave up because it was so painful. I better just go grab that easy job working for a bank or something. You'd be miserable now. Whereas look at you now That what I trying to open people minds to Follow Stephen Bartlett here That the model One of the things that I think helped me get here is my dark side You talk about dark sides a lot. And when I say my dark side, I mean the insecurity, the shame, the wanting to fit in, all of those kinds of things that acted as a driving force. And a lot of people have a dark side. I've heard you talk about how all great achievers have a bit of a dark side in them. How do we channel our dark side so that it's productive and not destructive? I was talking to someone the other day who is a very successful entrepreneur. And they have their own story of like shame and embarrassment and trying to run away from a certain life they used to have. And that made them successful. But now they work 18 hours a day. They're just like almost addicted to their work. So I wonder if it can go too far. Yeah. But they say they're happy. They do. Yeah, they say they're really happy. Do you believe it? It's hard to distinguish true happiness from the contentment that you get when you are successfully escaping your dark side Do you know what I mean by that Because this individual has successfully ran away from their darkness and they appear to be in a state of contentment because they're succeeding in their pursuit of running away from their past. But I don't know if that's happiness. Some yogi might tell me that happiness is when you stop running. Well, you know, I worked for somebody, I was on the board of directors for this company, American Apparel, which no longer exists. And the CEO, Dov Charney, was the founder of the company, an incredible entrepreneur, who from one little shop here in Los Angeles, when I met him, created this empire. and it was incredibly rewarding and he was a i'd say a very fulfilled person but he couldn't stop he couldn't stop it was like a demon possessed him he had to have more he had to have he had to build more buildings he had to have more american apparels all over the world he leveraged himself and then when the crash occurred in 2007 just before the company just after the company went public he was so in debt that the company never recovered Right He tried too hard He didn know the limits OK so part of this isn when I said if money motivates you then you going to have that demon If fame and reputation motivates you, then that demon is going to take seize you by the throat and going to make you work 18 hours until everybody eats your dust and you humiliate all your enemies and you're miserable. right so knowing who you are and knowing what matters is going to save you from that kind of demonic possession because you're actually not going to be very successful if you're like that you're going to burn yourself out you're not going to have very good ideas what happens to a lot of people when they become successful is first of all it goes to their head they think they have the mightest touch they think they've got you know the golden touch and then their minds start going in this kind of unit, this singular direction. They learned how to do something, and they're just doing it, doing it, doing it, doing it, and doing it. And they don't know how to learn. They don't know that there's other ways of doing things, right? And that's what happens when you become completely possessed, and your mind isn't open, and it isn't free, and it isn't expanding, and you're not creative anymore. To be creative will really
[30:00] require you to try something different, to not expand your company endlessly like he did, and instead to take the five branches that you have here in Los Angeles and make the product better and be more creative with it and don't be possessed by money and fame and reputation. That's the answer, I think, there. Does that make sense? Yeah, it does. Yeah. Yeah. Something that I think many a person struggle with, which is in part this idea of focusing on the thing in front of you versus getting too distracted with other opportunities. And I wanted to talk to you about this idea of focus. Sure. And how important you think it is for mastery. Yeah. I mean, so many young people who will say to me, oh, I'm doing this little crypto thing here and I've got this hair business here and I've got this other thing here. What would you say to those people that are trying to become a master in this world as it relates to focus. It's funny because I'm helping the son of an old friend of mine who's who's who's got that problem. And he's incredibly successful. Hope he's not listening to this. He's 20 years old. He's very wealthy. He's done amazing things. But he one of those people who spread himself out to all these different things He and I can find a through line what connects them all except making money and having connections and stuff And it very alluring in this world particularly where there's so many possibilities where you can get on the internet, you can learn this out of the other people that are doing these things, you can get into crypto, you can start your own business here, you can get into the health and fitness world, and then later on try to figure out how to connect them all. But life doesn't work like that. That's not how the brain functions. That's not what we were meant for. Because it doesn't start from you. The whole thing has to start from you. It can't start from the world. It can't start from what other people are doing. It can't start from what's sexy. It has to come from within. If it doesn't come from within, then you're going to be floundering for years and years and years. And so what I've done with this young person, whose name I won't mention but I love dearly, is what is it that really is in your heart? What is it that you really, really love? How can we connect this crypto with this media business that you're starting, with the sports world that you're starting, with this fitness thing? What connects them all? And to me I was getting the sense we haven solved it yet but he kind of excited by celebrities and by that world And that's fine. I think there's nothing wrong with that. So I'd say, well, maybe what connects all this is the film business, right? Because the film is pretty wide ranging to be a producer, to raise money. You're dealing with all kinds of different people. You're networking. You're meeting starlets. You know, it's a glamorous life, but it's focused. OK, so, you know, when you focus on something, the world just kind of opens up. But you have to be focusing on the right thing. So if you were meant to be a writer and then you decide because you want money to go into law school and then you focus very deeply on law school, what will happen is for a year or two, you'll be able to skid by. But then the wheels will start going slower and slower because you're not interested in it. You're not connected to it. You get bored and your focus will start falling to pieces. But if it's something you love, you can focus on that for seven, eight, 10, 12 years and never get bored. From observing a certain family member of mine do a very similar thing part of it as well is that when she would start one pursuit starting x business it would get hard as it always does and when you look over at the person across the road they seem to be having a much easier life with their thing or with their crypto or with their whatever yeah and they tell you the story of how much money they've made and how easy it was whatever so you get tempted into believing that the grass is greener you pursue that so now you're doing two things now your first thing starts to suffer yeah and i think especially in the early season of life when you don't have elon musk resources much of the game is focusing enough on one thing to build those resources so that you have the chance of being able to do it more than one thing or spreading your bets a bit more but in that first season when you're in resource accumulation phase i think my early investors in my company i remember one day emailing my first investor who's a very successful man and saying i've got an idea and it was an idea other than the one he'd invested in And I remember the email, I was 18 years old and he hit me so hard on that email. He was like, if you don't focus on one thing, you will never. But you were the one that was interested in this other. Yeah, I was trying to. He was the one. Yeah. So my investor was a very successful man and I emailed him this other idea, which I thought was amazing. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah.
[35:00] be successful because also you rob yourself as you said of the chance of accumulating deep skills yeah yes it is um yeah i remember uh this is something that wise people know and if you're young if you have like a mentor like you did who could tell you the truth the ropes as they are it will help save you years of misery i remember when we were in american apparel it was the year In 2007, the company was just about to go public. I was about to be put on the board of directors. And this man came to me who was like your investor. And he said, Robert, just make sure that Dove doesn't mindlessly expand. Make the brand focused. Have it focused on one thing and then he will be successful. At the time, I thought that was interesting, but I didn't really have the guts to explain that to Dove. But there are people out there who understand the truth of this. But the other thing about envy, like you say, you see your other friend doing crypto and they're having so much fun and making so much money. Tell you it's bullshit. They're not having as much fun as you think, right? People create a front on Instagram or TikTok or wherever where life seems so glorious But they never having as much fun as you might imagine In my book Laws of Human Nature I talk about Aristotle Onassis who in the 60s was the wealthiest man in the world. He was married to John F. Kennedy's widow, Jacqueline Kennedy, Jacqueline Onassis. Who could be happier than that? He had yachts, etc. He was the most unhappiest, miserable person in the world, as Jacqueline Kennedy explained in her autobiography. He was such a mean-spirited, unhappy person. Yet everybody thought envied him because he had this beautiful wife and all that money. The people you envy are not doing nearly as well as you think. So don't let that influence your decisions in life. I've never forgotten a certain Johnny Ive clip that I watched many, many years ago. I think it must have been five years ago now, where he talks about working with Steve Jobs. And this is what he says in the clip. I've never forgotten it. Never forgotten it. This sounds really simplistic, but it still shocks me how few people actually practice this. And it's a struggle to practice. But is this issue of focus Steve was the most remarkably focused person I ever met in my life And the thing with focus is it's not sort of like this thing you aspire to or you decide on Monday, you know what, I'm going to be focused. It is a every minute, why are we talking about this? this is what we're working on you can achieve so much when you truly focus and one of the things that Steve would say because I think he was concerned that I wasn't he would say how many things have you said no to and I would honestly I would have these sacrificial things because I mean I wanted to be very honest about it and so I say I said no to this and no to that and And he knew that I wasn't vaguely interested in doing those things anyway. So there was no real sacrifice. What focus means is saying no to something that you, with every bone in your body, you think is a phenomenal idea. And you wake up thinking about it but you say no to it because you focusing on something else yeah amen that you know that the church of focus i agree with completely i mean i hate using my own examples because i'm i'm a rara avis you know i'm a rare bird but um you know i i have this book that i'm writing okay and it's on a very specific subject and I get distractions all the time. People want, you know, I can do this speaking engagement in India where I've never been before or Egypt, you know, kind of thing or get involved in this television project. And I'm actually never really seduced by it because I just love writing. But where it really comes down to is I'm writing this book and it's been going really not well. it's because I'm not focused on the actual thing I'm trying to say. So you can bring that level of focus down to the finest, finest point of your business or your writing or whatever. What is it you're trying to say? What is it you're trying to accomplish? What is your brand really about? Get into the nitty gritty, get into the little fine grains of sand and know what that is. So every
[40:00] I'm writing my chapter and I start writing about something that's not directly relevant to what it's about and what the reader is going to be interested in. I'm making a mistake and I make the mistake for several weeks and then I realize it and I pull back. So that level of focus has to have a lot of energy behind it because you're so in love with what you're doing that when you deviate from it, this little radar inside of your brain goes, you're off, you're off, you got to get back to it, right? And it's painful. But when you do get back to it, and when do things do click, it's incredibly pleasurable. So the focus for young people that seems so painful, God damn it, everyone else is having so much fun. And I'm having to learn this. Just keep telling yourself that you're doing something that your brain is going to reward you with several years down the line. So that friend of yours that seems to be having so much fun, in three years, they're gonna be sliding down the ladder working at some crap job, whereas you're gonna be rising up. So just keep your mind on the larger issue there and know that working with what your brain works well with will pay incredible rewards down the line When they talk about compounding returns in life they always say that it slow then it fast And even this podcast if you look at the graph of this podcast for the first three years of me recording in my cupboard on Sunday nights alone, completely flat, no one's listening. And then by year, maybe I'd say year four or year five, it goes straight up. And that's a consequence of those first three years were acquiring skills, understanding what people liked and why they like listening to the show and actually getting better as a talker, a speaker, an interviewer, et cetera. And what most people miss is they miss that internship of the slow, lonely, unrewarding couple of years because they lose focus. No one's clapping, no downloads. I've never seen another route. I've never seen another path there. I've never seen the overnight success. Well, I mean, I know I can name five other podcasters who have the same story as you who told me that lewis house chris williamson jay shetty they all have the same story for several years nothing crickets and i knew these people when they were just starting out and and then that happens i remember when i was working with 50 cent on the book the 50th law you know people look at rap stars and they go wow the glamour the fun the excitement the sexiness the lifestyle But he said, you know, I knew him because I was with him. Nobody worked harder than 50. He was incredibly disciplined and incredibly focused. And when he made it in the music business, it took incredible years of difficulty, hardship and failure. But nobody ever sees that. they only see him in concert and all the glamour and all the fun. They never focus on the years of grit and near failure. He got shot and nearly died. His record label dropped him. He had to work his way back up into the music industry from the very bottom until Eminem finally noticed him. But we don't see that in these celebrities, all the grit and the hard work that took them to get We just see the success and we get seduced by the success. I've heard you reference before Howard Gardner's Frames of Mind Theory of Multiple Intelligences book. And in that book, it says that there are five types of intelligences, logical intelligence, linguistical intelligence, interpersonal intelligence, spatial intelligence and bodily intelligence And it defines them quite differently Logical is the ability to reason and solve problems and think in abstract terms like scientists and mathematicians Linguistical intelligence is things like writers lawyers and poets You one of those writers Interpersonal intelligence are leaders, psychologists and teachers. Spatial intelligence are architects, artists and pilots. And lastly, body intelligence is athletes, dancers and surgeons. How important And is it to know your form of intelligence to be successful in life? So figuring out what that is, is incredibly important. And the reason why I like this book so much is we tend to think of intelligence as intellectual, as, you know, computer programming or mathematics or whatever it is, you know, having a PhD in this field. But that's not intelligence. Intelligence is also bodily intelligence. like somebody like Kobe Bryant in basketball is as intelligent as Albert Einstein, but in a different way. So you have a parent who's always geared towards, you know, going to the best school and being an intellectual giant, and their child wants to do ballet or sports or something. And you kind of look down on that and you say, no, no, no.
[45:00] your child up for misery. Recognize what one of these frames are for your child and press on it and let them go in that direction because it's what they're naturally gearing towards. It's what's fun, right? So for me, it was linguistic intelligence, words. I've just, since I was a child, I just, words bewitch me. I can't believe that we have words to name things and that there these symbols with letters that have sounds but a lemon isn't a lemon it's just a word and i would like five years old what the hell can that be that's so interesting you know and that you could take a word apart and spell other words with it so i knew very early on that it was words words words words and i absolutely stink and one of these intelligence is is build is mechanical intelligence, knowing how to build things. I'm terrible at that, which is very odd because my father was brilliant at that and he wasn't good at any of the others and I didn't inherit it. So that goes all, you know, that kind of debunks genetics right there. But, you know so figuring out which one of those and leaning in it and making that the direction of your life is so so important So if your thing is interpersonal intelligence and you understand that and yet you not heading into a job in which you social and around people you're going to be so miserable. But if you know that what your thing is interpersonal intelligence, you've got like a hundred different directions you can head into. That doesn't mean you have to only be a social worker. It just means you have to be a leader of people because you understand you like being around people, you like working with others, you're very empathetic. There could be a hundred different kinds of jobs. But once you know that, it gives you a sense of direction. It's by far the most important step for people. And I always recommend people reading this book because it's very, very important. Much of the reason we lose focus, as I've seen in my own friendship group and my own family, is because of envy. Yeah. How important is it to get control of one's envy? I've heard you describe it as the ugliest emotion? Well, it's ugly in the sense of, you know, it's an admission that you feel inferior, that you feel that somebody is better than you are. And who wants to admit that? You know, there a very famous psychologist named Alfred Adler from the 20s He was a disciple of Freud He thought this ability of always wanting to be better and superior to others was the most motivating factor of 90 of human behavior that we always want to feel at least that we superior in some way And the sense that we're inferior creates what he calls an inferiority complex. So it's very, very painful to tell yourself that this person is doing better than you are, or that they're younger and better looking than you are, that their wife is more interesting than you, or their kids are doing better, because it means it's a slight on you, right? We are very prone to envy genetically by the way our brains operate. So it's a known factor that chimpanzees are prone to feeling envy, right? If you give one chimp a banana or a grape and don't give another one, they'll be giving that kind of evil eye, the stink eye that we associate with envy. So it's something that's in primates. And what it comes from, I believe, is our brains operate by comparison. That's how we learn. That's how we understand things. We understand that this is a wild animal because it not that other thing over there Our brains compare bits of information to decide what is what what different from what the other thing So our brains are geared towards comparing And when you create a social animal, we are the most social animal on the planet, and you have that brain that's constantly comparing, we're using that mechanism to compare ourselves to other people and always wanting what other people have. And they've noticed in hunter-gatherer societies from back in 30,000 years ago, the feud that still existed in the 20th century, that envy was a huge problem among them. And so that when one person was given a gift, everybody in the tribe was so upset and angry that the person who was given the gift had to give it to other people so that they wouldn't be the target of envy, because it could lead to being murdered, right? So envy is deeply ingrained in all of us. We're constantly comparing ourselves to others, okay? But we don't want to admit it. So if I compare myself to some other writer who I think is having a better life than I am, who's sold more books than me, what I'll do in my mind instead of saying he deserves that or she deserves that because they are actually a better writer, I'll go, they don't really deserve it. They're a hack.
[50:00] They're just doing that because they know what the public wants. My books are going to be read 100 years from now, but nobody will read their books in five years. I justify it to myself. I don't feel envy. No, no, no. I'm not saying that person is superior. In fact, they're actually inferior to me. That's the games that we play when we envy other people. And it's something that social media is like a nuclear bomb of envy. right so 60 years ago i wouldn't have known what my neighbors or friends from college are doing and how much more money they're making and how happy they are but now you know what everybody on the planet is doing and how good they are and how happy they are and the incredible trips they're taking and you know the the great schools that their children are getting into on and on and on so it's this machine for manufacturing envy and it's infesting our political system as well It's seeping into all aspects of life, but nobody wants to talk about it and nobody wants to admit it. The main thing with envy is to admit that you feel it. Okay? So I will say I will get on my hands and I will say you know what Sometimes I actually envy Ryan Holiday He 30 years younger than I am He's written already more books than I have. Before I even wrote my first book, he's got a family. He's got these great homes. He's doing really well. Yeah, sometimes I feel envy. I'll admit it. Okay. If you don't admit it to yourself, then it just festers. and something ugly will happen. And so what I'm able to do with the feelings of envy that I might have is I think, God, Robert, there's no reason to feel that way. Go through a process and go, he's actually deserved all the success he's had. You know, he deserves it because he's worked really, really hard. And he's a really good person. He's ethical. He deserves it. And so you should be happy for him, which I am. I'm incredibly happy for him. But I have that first little twinge of envy. You have to admit it to yourself. And it's not an easy thing to admit because it means you're admitting you feel inferior for a moment. Can you use it productively? Yes. Yes, most definitely. And I talk in laws of human nature about strategies for doing that One of them is there somebody that you envy in the world Well instead of festering with that ugly emotion make that a spur Instead of envy, feel what's called emulation, where you feel competitive and you're going to be as good as they are or better than they are. You're going to use that sense of inferiority to motivate you to work harder and harder and harder. Another thing is, so when somebody has failure and we're actually kind of gleeful about it, it's called schadenfreude, right? The opposite of schadenfreude is a phrase that Nietzsche called mitfreude, which means instead of feeling pleasure in their pain, you feel their pleasure as well. So instead of feeling envy, try and feel happy for the other person. Now you'll say, I can't do that. But yes, you can. You have to practice it. There's a great psychologist named William James who called it an as-if strategy. So just tell yourself that I'm actually happy for their success. And when you do that, it's actually a really great feeling. To actually feel good about somebody else doing well is very ennobling feeling it kind of raises you up instead of lowering you down and making you feel ugly It makes you feel noble. It makes you feel better about yourself. And it kind of opens up your whole emotional life. So those are I have other strategies in the book, but those are a couple. I was wondering why your book Power is still selling unbelievably well. i mean most books when they come out they have their moment and then they're done but for some reason what you write in this book is as compelling tempting and attractive to people now more than ever and one would then assume that's because people feel more powerless and when they see the book it offers them a promise of something that they so desperately want Is that an accurate assessment? I think it is. I think it is. I mean, I've noticed in the last six years or so, the sales have been higher than they've ever been before. And a lot of it, you know, young people went through the crash of 2008, and they had to deal with the COVID and the pandemic. And in those years where the world seemed upside down, the book was
[55:00] selling better than ever. So I think helplessness and feeling a loss of control, feeling like there might be something out there that can guide me a little bit in this very confusing anarchic times that we're living through, can be very seductive and very appealing. So, I mean, there's always change in our world. There's always chaos. But when the book came out in 1998, it wasn't nearly as chaotic as it is right now. So I think you're right. I do attribute the success not necessarily to my brilliance or the brilliance of the book, but to the fact that people are feeling more and more helpless. People are lonelier than ever, according to many of the stats. And when you look at the impact that's having on people, it's equal to smoking 15 cigarettes a day, according to some reports. They're more likely to live alone. They're more likely to feel lonely to report feeling lonely they're more likely to feel that they have no nobody to turn to in a time of crisis according to some studies as well yeah um they're more addicted than ever before you can class that in a number of ways chemical addictions but social media addictions and other things and that the state of especially young men you know it young women too are having their own struggles especially with anxiety and the comparisons and those kinds of things we talked about But young people generally and especially young men are killing themselves at higher rates than ever before. Suicide, as you know, is one of the biggest killers of young men. What is the antidote for this? This sense of powerlessness, loneliness, isolation, addiction, aimlessness? Well, you know, our tendency would be to bring it down to the individual level, but I think it's also a cultural problem. I think our culture is contributing to it. The kind of aimlessness in our culture where we don't really talk about the skills that are necessary to get ahead. Our culture promotes all kinds of bad values. It emphasizes fame and celebrity. It doesn't talk about discipline. It doesn't give young men a sense of purpose and direction. It doesn't value them. You know, right now, a lot of young men feel like, you know, it women that are getting all the attention that what why am I you know what is my purpose here So I think it a cultural problem more than anything else And when I say that that kind of absolves individuals But I don mean to do that as well because you are an individual You live in this culture and you've got to get yourself out of that kind of hole that this culture is imposing on you. And so I have a lot of sympathy for it because I don't think it's completely your fault that you feel lonely or that you're isolated or that you don't have friends that you don't know how to socialize. You know, I didn't have this phone in my hand when I was in my formative years. And I had to meet women when I wanted to, you know, at that point in my life in the 70s when I was in my 20s. And so I had to go out there and suffer from rejection. I had to go to bars. I had to go to clubs. I had to put myself out there and meet them. And it was tough. And I learned skills, seduction skills, whatever you want to call them, but just social skills about, you know, women think differently than you. They have different values than you. What are their values? Get outside of yourself and think about what it's like to be them, what you can do that's going to please them and get them how you can enter into their world. You can have none of that now none of that It all you know swipe swipe swipe Yeah So you not going out You not you not developing that muscle You not putting yourself in live and interacting with people where you're feeling their body language, their nonverbal communication. So no wonder your social skills are atrophying. And as your social skills atrophy, it becomes harder and harder and harder to go out there and put yourself on the line because you're not good at it. So you fall into this hole of becoming lonelier and lonelier because it's harder and harder to get out of it. So I have tremendous empathy and I would never preach or blame young men in particular for the problems that they're having. And I empathize with it very much so because I myself went through a phase where I felt very, very unhappy and even suicidal when I was younger. And I understand how your life can turn that way. So I don't mean to ever come across as somebody who has all the answers, because I think it's cultural. But if you are an individual, you have to see that first of all, it's not a bad thing necessarily to be lonely. Part of the problem of loneliness,
[60:00] is it's got this taboo against it, this bad name. Like it's terrible to be lonely, terrible to be alone, right? And so you feel shamed for the fact that you're lonely. But actually, it's extremely important in life to be alone sometimes and to be able to be on your own and to think about yourself and to kind of come to terms with who you are and to embrace what makes you different. And you can't do that if you feel ashamed about being lonely or if you can't ever be alone. So knowing how to be alone is very important. It's what will make you successful. It will bring you skills. So don't think of it as something necessarily terribly negative in your life. But the other thing is you have to force yourself. You force yourself to go to the gym to develop muscles and become stronger. you have to force yourself to interact with people and get out of your phone and have real experiences instead of virtual experiences. And if you do that 10 times a month just like going to the gym 10 times a month your social skills will get better and better Your social muscle will get better and better and you feel better about interacting with people on that point you um i remember law i think it's law 18 i'm just having a look about isolation yeah do not build fortresses to protect yourself isolation is dangerous yeah solitude is not a defense because it cuts you off from valuable information allies and opportunities there's a difference isn't there between being lonely and being alone because being alone is one thing but the state of loneliness feels like it's a slightly different proposition well it's the difference between you feel very unhappy that you're not connecting to other people we're a social animal right and you feel like people don't like you, they don't respect you, that you can't interact with them on a level that's meaningful. Whereas the feeling of being alone for me, wow, I don't have to be around ugly, idiotic people. I can just be by myself. I can read a good book. I don have to interact with people whose ideas I don like I can just be myself and be as weird as I want Wow what a relief I so happy being alone Now I not like that all the time I would be terrible But sometimes I do feel that way And that's the difference. And that's a good thing. I remember once I was on an airplane and I saw a young woman who was by herself. And I could sense that it was driving her crazy. And She had to use her phone to never feel alone, right? Even in the middle where we're flying over the ocean, she had to like somehow connect onto the Internet and be sending emails and texts and anything. And I got this kind of desperation in her, this intuition, this feeling that being alone was just horrifying for her, you know. And I think that's not a good thing. I think it's a terrible thing. So, yes, isolation is bad. you're a social animal you're meant to be around other people but if you can't be alone you can't ever figure out what makes you different and what makes you unique so you have to be able to play both sides of the game to listen to that voice inside, to turn inwards it is hard to turn inwards when you never have moments of solitude when you said you were suicidal in earlier years Yeah What lifted you out of that state Well I had a girlfriend who was very understanding who helped me a lot So I wasn completely alone And then a little tiny voice inside of me was saying, you are, you have interesting thoughts. you're a strange person, Robert. I've always been strange. I never was like other people, even in high school. I was always something off about me, which could be made me lonely, which can make me be a problem. But I kept saying, there's something different and off about you, right? And you have skills as a writer. It's going to happen someday. Don't give up. Don't give up, don't give up. Keep trying, right? And so finally, I'm 35, 36 years old. I was in Italy at the lowest point of my life. And then I met this man there who was a book packager, Joost Elfers. And he asked me if I had an idea for a book. And suddenly, just I almost get emotional just thinking about everything just shifted inside of me. It's like, yeah, I could write a nonfiction book and I just improvise.
[65:00] revised what would turn into the 48 laws of power. He got so excited. He said, I will pay you to write the, I forget what the word is, to sell it, you know, and then I'll pay you to live while you write it. And so suddenly it went from darkness to light because I had a purpose. And all of my misery, You know, I could take all of the bad bosses I had, all of the horrible psychotic bosses who were so stupid and so political and so manipulative. And I could go, wow, I've got all this material to write the 48 Laws of Power. All my worst experiences can go into this book. It all has purpose for it. I'm not saying that's going to happen to everybody. But I was literally at that moment before it happened, pretty much near rock bottom. And I asked my wife, what would have happened if this didn't turn out? Would I have committed suicide? If I gone the same path and done some hack job I probably be incredibly overweight and alcoholic and I might have already died of a heart attack Or maybe I would have found my way to something else but it was a really really low point in my life purpose yeah it crazy how it can lift you out of darkness it can turn the lights on yeah it's just so unbelievably hard to find for so many people i mean you're not going to find it in your bedroom necessarily sat there thinking. But you know, opportunities come. You just have to be ready for them. So I had this opportunity that came to me. And you might say, well, that's lucky. That's never going to happen to me. But it will happen to you. You're just not ready for it. You're just not recognizing it. Some person will cross your path that can lift you out of what you're doing who could connect you but you're not paying attention you're not ready for it you don't think you deserve it so there is opportunity all all every day of the week you're it's around you is what i'm trying to say there's so many studies and there was one on tv by i think it was darren brown the illusionist that show certain types of people are pessimistic towards opportunity and when you do studies where you and there one particular study where they have a newspaper and they give it to one group of people who I think are pessimists and one group of people that are optimists And the researchers say when you find the voucher voucher just come back to us And what happens is they scroll through the newspaper and the pessimists never find it. But on the first page of the newspaper, it says, stop, go to the researchers now, you've won $100. The optimists find it. And Darren Brown did a similar thing, The Illusionist, in the street where he put, I think it was like a 50 pound or a hundred dollar note in the middle of the street as they were walking down the street and the optimists find it they see it but the pessimists just walk right past it yeah i think it was a winning scratch card potentially and that really opened my mind to like my my state my mental state my psychology is determining whether i see these opportunities yeah or totally miss them and then it's almost a standward spiral because then i'll think god i'm such an unlucky person right without realizing that i'm playing a really important role in creating my own fortune or misfortune. Right. Yeah, I have a chapter in The Laws of Human Nature about the nature of your attitude creates your circumstances, which is sort of the same thing you're saying, which is there are two kinds of attitudes that I talk about. One is a close as an attitude that closing that constrictive that narrow And there one that expansive and open You could call that pessimistic and optimistic But the closed attitude is you only seeing life through this narrow little spectrum where everything is bad People don't like you. There's hostility all around you. And what that means is you're not seeing reality. You're creating reality. You're creating that reality. You're seeing it, and that's what happens to you. The expansive attitude is life is amazing. All these incredible things are possible. I have hope. Any moment there could be an opportunity. And that's not reality either. But you're going to create that reality by feeling that way and taking, seizing an opportunity, the smallest crumb of an opportunity. You're going to create those good circumstances. So by your attitude, you create the bad things that happen to you in life. One of the sort of adjacent points here about purposelessness, about loneliness, about the struggles and plights of young men in the world that they face and young women, is the conversation around pornography. If you go on many of the social media apps these days, you will be exposed to pretty explicit pornography, whether you were searching for it or not. There's certain apps in particular where, even if I'm scrolling
[70:00] I feed certain things will pop up and I get Jesus Christ like you know I'm at work here um and I was thinking about this more broadly because the studies show that about I think it's like 80% of men and about 40% of women in the United States use pornography and I wondered if you had a view on how it robs us of the of the hard work it takes to form romantic relationships um and if the act of consuming pornography is robbing us of the desire for the real thing Well, it's an addiction and you have to understand that you are being manipulated, that you are being programmed, that these people have figured out exactly the kinds of things, the kinds of images that are going to hook you and you're being played. You're a fool. They're playing with you, just like Mark Zuckerberg in Facebook knows all the algorithms to hook you to the news feed. You're being played by the images they know how to create and keep you always wanting more. Just like fast food has all these tricks to constantly be eating their Doritos or whatever it is. Okay. But the other thing is so I not going to preach and moralize about pornography from a prudish aspect of it because i not a prude but i have a chapter in the book that i writing on the sublime on what i call love sublime and the act of loving not god not the universe but another human being an individual, man or woman, gay or straight or whatever it is, and how sublime that is. And what it is, is in that relationship, the boundaries between the two of you are allowed to melt and your ego can soften and you can feel their world and they can feel your world. And you have a connection that for a social animal is the highest form of connection. It's superior to a religious connection. I'm sorry. And what it requires is we have the expression falling in love. And it literally is falling. It's like you fall, fall, fall, fall, fall. You're open and you're vulnerable and you're letting yourself fall. And when you not what stops you from doing that is you don want to be hurt You don want to be vulnerable right Because if you open yourself to someone else you likely to get hurt And so the moment there a disagreement between you or there a moment where a friend says something nasty about this person you interested in you stop falling you cut it off and that romantic thing ends and dies But if you get past that and you allow yourself to open up completely and you just keep falling, falling and falling and falling, this incredible thing can happen. I describe it to you and I describe it, the dynamics of that and examples of that and why for a social animal it's like the ultimate experience. And so pornography is completely robbing you of that because love of another human being is a sense of enchantment. Right. There's like this spark that's happening, this electricity, and it's obviously sex is involved. So it's a very physical relationship as well, but it goes beyond that. It also has a kind of spiritual component. Right But it a sense of enchantment where the world becomes alive to everything is beautiful in the world in those moments Right And pornography is disenchanting you from everything It making it all mechanical and ugly and and and it has no romance to it it has no dimension to it it almost as if the two humans involved in it or however are like machine parts right they're not human anymore and there's no human emotion involved there's no kind of spiritual connection it's depressing it's really really depressing. When I see it, I feel really sorry that I experienced this and I feel really sorry for the people who are in that industry. I find it really, really ugly and alienating. Now, I'm not, as I said, a prude and I could watch a great movie with a love scene in it and it's very exciting and beautiful. But the seduction element, the element of I saw a movie recently, a Japanese movie by the great director Ozu from the 50s. And there was a man who was married and he was about to have an affair with this woman who was kind of seducing him. And they had this kiss. I go, wow, I was getting, I had to use the word turned on, but I was getting really excited. It
[75:00] So full of emotion and energy, and it made the sexual element so much more powerful by the element of romance, by the element of something kind of transgressive. There was no nude bodies. There was no sex you ever get to see. But the lead up to it and the nature of the emotions involved made it, to me, deeply, deeply exciting. And if young men particularly can't have that experience, if everything is so mechanical, is so computerized, it's going to be like AI. It's going to be like AI sex, you know, then you're losing your soul. You're losing your capacity for really falling in love, for really having that kind of dimensional experience, which, by the way, can be extremely physical. And it can only last for three months. I'm not saying it has to be 20 years with one woman or one man. It could be for three months, but it enriches you. It makes you more human. I've invested more than a million pounds into this company, Perfect Ted, and they're also a sponsor of this podcast. I switched over to using Matcha as my dominant energy source, and that's where Perfect Ted comes in. They have the Matcha powders They have the Matcha drinks They have the pods And all of this keeps me focused throughout a very very long recording day no matter what going on And their team is obsessed with quality which is why they source their ceremonial grade matcha from Japan So when people say to me that they don't like the taste of matcha, I'm guessing that they haven't tried Perfect Ted. Unlike low quality matcha that has a bitter grassy taste, Perfect Ted is smooth and naturally sweet. And without knowing it, you're probably a Perfect Ted customer already if you're getting your matcha places like Blank Street or Joe and the Juice. But now you can make it yourself at home. So give it a try and we'll see if you still don't like matcha. So here's what I'm going to do. I'm going to give you 40% off our matcha if you try it today. Head to perfectted.com and use code Stephen40 or if you're in a supermarket you can get it at Tesco's or Holland and Barrett or in the Netherlands at Albert Heijn. And those of you in the US, you can get it on Amazon. The other thing that a couple of psychologists on my podcast before have alluded to on this subject is that they told me about a study with rats where they messed with the part of the rat's brain that is responsible for causing dopamine and then when they put food in front of the rat's mouth if the rat was it was like six inches from the rat mouth the rat would starve to death because they had impacted the rat dopamine So it no longer had motivation And they speak of dopamine as this sort of motivation chemical It the thing that gets you to take action So if you frying your dopamine receptors by doing these sort of high dopamine activities, I'm wondering if you're going to, if we're sort of breeding a culture of lower motivation individuals. And because of this thesis, I was kind of looking at some studies around this, and it does say that constant exposure to high dopamine activities can lead to dopamine desensitization or deregulation of dopamine receptors. And then this can lead to a significant reduction in your motivation. And there's multiple studies here that point in this direction. So I'm wondering how, when I look at some of the stats around purposeless and people having less partners and being more sexless, if there's a through line here that when you make dopamine easy through pornography, we're less likely to go in, get up out of our bedroom and take an action. Yeah, but it's not just pornography. There's too much of that in social media as well on other levels So you know you have to understand what it means to be a human being first of all and we physical animals We can be in our heads all the time We think with our bodies right We think with the chemicals mixing in our bodies. We're very physical and we're social animals to the core. And that social animal, what makes us superior is that we connect. I can kind of look at you and I can maybe understand what you're feeling, what you're thinking, and we can have a discussion and our ideas can go back and forth and connect and go to higher levels of understanding or lower levels of disagreement. But that's what it means to be a human being. You're not this fucking AI machine. You're not a bot. You're not an algorithm. You're not a little piece of data that Mark Zuckerberg can mix with. You're a human being with a body, with physical problems, with hormones, with emotions that are coursing through you. And you have to become a physical creature, which means doing things in the world, taking action, working, building a business, doing things with your hands, you know, exercise, meeting people, be inside of your bodies. And when you're in pornography, you're disembodied. You're not in your body. You might be wanking off as far.
[80:00] I know, you know, probably are, but you're not really inside of your body in any meaningful way. And so it's like my hope, if there's any hope, is that and there's seeds of it in the world now where young people are going to start getting disgusted with this because the human spirit is still very powerful. And it's still like, I don't want to be like this. It doesn't feel natural. It doesn't feel right. And at some point, my hope is in 20, 30 years after I'm probably dead, there'll be a movement where people are going to be so against this that they're going to go in the opposite direction. They're going to be returning to what it means to be a human being. There'll be a rekindling of interest in our past, in the primitive past, in the pagan past, things I'm writing about in my book right now. And I've seen things like that sometimes, like in the New York Times they had an article a few weeks ago about a group of young people in college who hate social media and absolutely refuse it and will not it's like almost like a fraternity or sorority they will not allow anybody into their group whoever looks at their phone and go yay yeah right on brother i could if i in college right now i would join that Not that I think everything is evil I have my own phone et cetera But if I were young that sense of this is a nasty world I want to return to what it means to be a human being. I want to spark a movement, a revolution that goes back to that. I hope that that's going to happen. I hope that's in the cards. What is it about human nature that we just don't want to admit? it well um first of all we don't want to admit um where we came from our our primitive roots that we are animals you know that before we invented language you know we were living like any other animal on the in the outdoors right and um i remember one day i was i was in sydney australia about 10, 12 years ago. And they had this amazing zoo. I hate zoos because I'm an animal lover and I think zoos are like prisons. But I wanted to see the strange exotic animals there. And they had this amazing chimpanzee compound, right? Where the chimpanzees could kind of roam around freely. And I was fascinated. And I sat there for like two hours because it was like watching an office in Manhattan or something where there was the alpha male and all the other males were kind of falling behind him like you know like the CEO of a company And I was looking at around and I noticed all the people were like giggling and they were so embarrassed and they couldn't. They were making they were laughing. That was their reaction because it made them so uncomfortable to see this animal that's so much like a human being, but is also still an animal. They were just so uncomfortable by it. It made me realize that we're very, very uncomfortable with that aspect of ourselves, right? The part that we can't really control so much, that isn't logical, that isn't rational, that isn't clean, doesn't, you know, all these civilized things. So we're in deep denial of our animal roots, but we're also in denial of our own nature. So we want to imagine ourselves to be these kind of saintly, moral, rational creatures, always thinking about what's good for other people, you know, and it's just a fairy tale. That's not the world as it is. You know it the world more like I described in the 48 Laws of Power where people are manipulative where people are playing games Not everyone but everyone has a manipulative side Everyone has a dark side. We actually are deeply irrational creatures. We don't want to admit it. We don't want to admit the parts of ourself that reflect this kind of animal nature, our irrationality, our aggression, the envy that we feel towards other people. It's always other people who are like that. So I give the example of narcissism and I try to make the point in the book. In narcissism, I make the point that everybody's self-absorbed. When you're reading a book and you see your birthday happens to be there, which is a fact, you're like, whoa, that's my birthday because it's you, your astrological sign. That's me. We all are interested in ourselves. We're all self-absorbed. Right. And when somebody suddenly talks about us, our ears prick up. I'm not moralizing it. It's just the truth. It's me. It's everyone. We don't want to admit it. It's always somebody else. It's always Donald Trump who's in the narcissist. It's always Elon Musk's narcissist. Everybody has narcissistic tendencies. That's human nature and we want
[85:00] deny it and should we be aspiring to not be narcissists or does one just accept their narcissistic tendencies and lean into it because much of what i read in the book about power is how narcissism seems to get you ahead to some degree that's that's that's debatable but um but i mean look at some of the people that you know we've been talking about that have reached the very top of the professional pyramid in life you know the presidents and such they've got narcissistic traits and it's easy sure sure and uh and some of them are are kind of what i call deep narcissists who are very problematic and some of them are healthy narcissists so a lot of artists are what i would call a healthy narcissist so a lot of our artists aren't necessarily the best people, right? They're not often, you know, you wouldn't maybe want to be their friend. They're maybe not the most faithful person as far as a partner is concerned. But they put all of that narcissistic energy into their work and they create beautiful things that contribute to humanity. Steve Jobs was not a very nice person right He was very aggressive He was very assertive And he was a control freak but look what he created okay that healthy narcissism what the first thing they tell you in aaa i not been in aaa but i know it it's admitting that you're an alcoholic okay if you can't admit you're an alcoholic how are you ever going to stop being an alcoholic you first have to admit it so if you want to stop being a narcissist you have to get on your hands and knees and admit that you are a narcissist because if you deny it you say everybody else is if you can't look inward how can you ever change that and even the most saintly person on this planet the muhatma gandhi's the martin luther kings they had definite strong narcissistic tendencies there are no saints in this world Everybody has these have these tendencies. So get off your high horse, look inward and see those traits that are narcissistic within you. What if I'm dealing with a narcissist? Well, who isn't? In this world today, you're always dealing with a narcissist. What do I do about that? Do I? Because I was thinking about some of the laws in your book where you say things like don't outshine the master. If I dealing with a narcissist should I hide my strengths and my weaknesses in order to sort of pander to them and not outshine them yes but as part of law number one is this is the great thing about being a human being you can do two things at once you can be consciously playing the game of i'm not going to outshine him because he's he's or she's going to fire me because i'm going to make them I'm feeling insecure. But at the same time, in my head, I'm going, that person isn't better than me. They don't deserve their position. They're actually kind of incompetent and stupid. And someday, by being loyal and learning from them, I'm going to rise up. And I'm being smart because I have to have a social animal. And then at that point, I can just say, get away from me. I don't need you anymore. I'm better than you. You can outshine them, but you play the game. but the worst thing is if you internalize it and go i actually am inferior i'm not going to outshine because i'm not a good person i don't deserve it and then you've internalized this sense of inferiority and it's going to haunt you the rest of your life so you can play both sides of the game at the same time you talk about acting in in life to get ahead do we have to be actors in your view Well this is where I start getting a little bit cranky Stephen because everybody an actor right Nobody admits it, though. When you're three years old, you're already acting, right? You're crying because you're trying to get your parents' attention. You're making trouble with your siblings because you're trying to get something that you want. You're learning to be manipulative. Children are very manipulative. Children are consummate actors. They learn that they can get what they want by behaving a certain way. If I'm an angel, mommy will give me this and the other thing, even though I know I'm not an angel. We are a social animal and we have words. We have language. And with words and language, we can say one thing and be another. We can lie. We can deceive. We can tell people, I loved your screenplay. You were fantastic in the movie. Man, you're looking so great today. We don't mean any of it, but we can do that because we have words and we can lie about that. We are all actors. If everyone went around saying exactly what they felt about the other person, no one would ever get along. We would have killed ourselves off by now. You're always telling the boss the things that they want to hear. You're always telling your partner. You're always kind of hedging exactly what you feel.
[90:00] You're an actor. I don't understand what's so complicated about that. I don't understand why people can't see that every day of their life. And in another instance, you're never the same with two different people. The way you are in front of your father as you are in front of your son or in front of a colleague, you're a completely different person. Your jokes are different. Your body language is different. You're an actor. Okay? Some people are good at it. Some people aren't, but you're an actor. Well, I think the root of this is there's something ugly about being manipulation, lying, acting. So no one would want to volunteer that they are doing that. But from what I'm inferring from what you said is that in order to get ahead in life, you're going to need to lie a little bit, manipulate and act. Well, you are. It's not like you need to be. You are doing that, even though you may not admit it. You are doing that. You see, the thing is, it's getting back to that scene at the Sydney Zoo, where people are deeply uncomfortable with these aspects of their own character and their own personality. And I don want you to go around thinking God it great to be manipulative It great to just screw people over and get what I want and not care about them No but it better to admit that you are capable of manipulation that you do it often unconsciously and often in a passive aggressive manner. It's better to admit it and it's better to be able to play the game when you have to, like always say less than necessary. It's going to save you a lot of pain. you don't have to go around all your life practicing these things i don't think you want to what was that law always say less than necessary can you number four can you explain that one to me in looking at powerful people the person who talks less always gives off a greater aura of power than the people that are yabbering all the time that are talking that can't control their tongue and the idea is if you can't control your mouth if you just keep talking and talking it gives it aura to other people that you can't control anything else. You have no self-control. And that is very unpowerful aura. And obviously, the more you talk, the more you are prone to say something kind of stupid and irrational that you're going to regret. And so powerful people know to command an audience. They sit there they let other people talk and argue and then occasionally they utter something that maybe a little bit ambiguous Whoa Well, that's very interesting. Robert said that. What does that mean? You look powerful, right? You give off an air of mystery. You give off an air of control. And so a lot of people have a hard time with it because they think, oh, should I just be able to say whatever I want and just talk? Well, no, you don't. Not in the social world. Not in the work world. It's going to get you in trouble. Learn to control what you talk and learn that there are moments that saying less is actually much more powerful than just yammering on and on. I was, through my years of business, running businesses and stuff, I came up with this idea, which I've shared with a few people called your contribution score. And much like we have a credit score where if we, you know, we're reckless with our finances, our credit score gets lowered. I think the same applies for the contributions we make in group settings, but just generally the contributions we make. And I came to learn this over time because in one of my offices many years ago in a different company there was this one individual who in the meeting rooms would when people were brainstorming before they thought of what they were going to say they interject and say what about if we do a we could do like a pop with maybe we do like they were thinking out loud And what I would observe as the CEO is the minute they spoke it was almost like people rolled their eyes and tried to cut them off Because they developed this contribution score, which says when X person contributes, it's always ill-formed, not productive and takes too long. But then there's this other guy who I remember from my Manchester office who went, he hardly spoke. And every time he spoke, it wasn't important. So the minute he starts speaking, it's like the room shifts towards him. It's like, like with bated breath. So there's an art of protecting one's contribution score. Yeah, I remember 50, I would go to meetings with him. 50 Cent. Yeah. And he would hardly say anything. And people would be trembling. My God, he's not talking. He's not saying he's interested in my ideas. He just sit there back with this kind of wry smile on his face. And then when he'd say something, oh, they would let out a breath. Oh, he's saying something. Be very short and curt. But he completely commanded the room because he just sat there as if he wasn't really happy with what people were doing. And it made them compete to make him happy. Interesting.
[95:00] Interesting. He's a master of the 48 laws of power. The other law that I was thinking a lot about, if we're jumping back to the laws of power, is let others do the work, but take the credit. Your face when I said that. Well, you know, some of the 48 laws is irony and, you know, people have to be able to understand and read what's ironic. So like I have a chapter in there, play on people's need to believe to create a cult-like following. And I'm not really saying go out and create a cult. I'm showing you why you might be in a cult right now because this is how cults operate. Okay, so when I worked in Hollywood, I worked at one point for a film director. And we had this process where we would sit in a room and we would talk about the story. We would discuss the dialogue stuff. And I would give all of this dialogue and ideas in there and he'd be writing it down. And I not saying half the screenplay but at least a third or fourth were like my ideas my contribution my dialogue I never got a single credit for any of it It was always his name that was on there People go wow that was so funny That was really brilliant. I love that line. It's my line. Okay. So I learned this is the law of the jungle. When you're working in particularly in entertainment and media, people take your work and they put their name on it. So like when you're watching a television show with some news broadcast or whatever or an interviewer, their jokes aren't their own. They didn't write those jokes. They had a team of people writing it. All those great facts that are coming up, a team of researchers are putting it there. You never hear their names. You never know who they are. They took their work and they put their name on it. That's the law of the jungle. And the law of the jungle is don't get upset about it. It's part of the game. I got upset when that happened. I didn't say anything. I didn't do anything, but I got resentful. Nobody's recognizing my work. Wham, wham, wham, wham, wham, wham, wham. The adult, if I had been smarter, was, that's just how it is, Robert. Just calm down. At some point, people will see your screenplays or your books or whatever, and you'll be fine. But just I trying to show you this is how the world operates and don be so naive And don think it not like that And if you had kicked up a fuss you might have accidentally outshone the master Oh, I've been fired. It's interesting because there is an element of this where it can, where like trying to take the credit can really also lead you to being fired. Because I remember back in a previous company that I'd started, had a big team about 200 people in Manchester. And there was this one kid in his early 20s who would always sulk if in our public company channel, someone just innocently forgot to include his name in credit when credit was being handed out. And it would happen maybe once every six months. You just forgot that he had contributed to the project. And that happens in all businesses. People don't tag you sometimes. And I remember hearing that he was outside on the steps bitching. That's the best way I can describe it. Just like complaining to other younger team members that he hadn't been included in that message. And it developed this horrible reputation for him as someone that was always complaining and always trying to take credit because it's ugly to be seen as trying to take credit. Well so if you read the law carefully it really about how powerful people use this So if you an underling and you do the work don you don want to take credit for because it going to get you in trouble right but powerful people have used for centuries the labor of other people and put their name on it to make themselves look powerful and to make them seem like they've got endless energy okay so you You have to apply that law with intelligence. If you're an underling and you're doing some project, it's a group project, don't go out there and take credit for it because people are just going to laugh at you. You're going to make you're going to make a terrible fool of yourself. So every law has a context, you know, but that's that's powerful. People use that law. And if you don't think that's how it operates, I'm sorry, but you're in for a world of pain. I think there's an overarching thing here, which can be discovered in your other book, The Laws of Human Nature, about mastering your emotional self. Yeah. Because none of these things are going to be possible if you don't have mastery over your emotions. I'm not going to be able to refrain from snatching credit. I'm not going to be able to outshine my master if I don't have this sort of foundation of emotional control. Is that true? Is emotional control really where this all begins? Yes, it is self-control. Of course, you can take it
[100:00] too far where you have no emotions and you're just a cold fish out there. You know, it's good. Emotions are important. You're not going to write a book. You're not going to start a business unless you're excited, unless you have that emotional energy. So I'm not talking about stifling your emotions. That would be incredibly counterproductive and unpowerful. But there are emotions that are going to get you in trouble, particularly as a social animal. So it's not like you stifle your emotions. You learn how to channel and control them. And you learn that certain behaviors are going to be read as unpowerful, as hysterical, as somebody who can't get things done, as ineffective, incompetent. So as an actor, you learn to sort of present the right front, the right facade. And that requires a degree of emotional control. Yes, for sure. It's very important. And it's not easy because when you're young, particularly, you're wired to be emotional and you're going to learn this the hard way, which is how I learned it. I'm trying to teach you some lessons so maybe you won't make as many mistakes. But it a hard thing you learn and you learn it by the mistakes you make by saying something foolish that costs you your job by outshining the master that costs you your job You learn it from the mistakes you make Is there any practices that you know of that would enable me to increase my self-awareness? Because, you know, we're all going through experiences in life, but it seems that some people are learning from those experiences and becoming more wise and more effective. And then other people are kind of repeating the cycle over and over again. And I think I ask this in particular because you're a writer. So you spend a ton of time thinking, thinking about what's happened to you, your jobs, experiences, your feelings. If you do a foolish mistake, there are two ways to go. And the common route is that asshole, they screwed me over. It's their fault, you know, right? or I made that mistake, but if circumstances had been better, if I had more money, if this person supported me, it all would have gone well. That's what we naturally do. And that's the kind of person that never learns from life. So your first instinct must always be, and not your first instinct, I correct myself, your second instinct, because your first instinct is always going to be that There a great book I can remember what the writer name was Mistakes were made but not by me I recommend that book highly It came out about 10 years ago I think it Elliot Aronson Oh, yeah, I knew him. Very good book. Anyway, your first instinct always will be, it was a mistake, but it wasn't my, I'm not to blame. All right. Everybody does it. I do it. Your second instinct is to step back and go, whoa, wait a minute. That's not right. I'm fooling myself. Actually, I played a role in that, in what happened there. And what is that role that I played? What could I have done differently? Maybe it's very subtle. Maybe it was something in my body language that turned people off that made them not like me. Or maybe it was something I said or I did that could have changed the circumstances. What is it that I did? Then you can learn from the experience. And if only 10% of it is your responsibility, at least see it as 30% so that you can learn from it and exaggerate your role and the mistake because then you can learn from it. You can understand that you can correct these mistakes, right? So initially you can always blame the other person. Then you going to step back and you can go through this little dance You going to go no I think I definitely played a part in what went wrong here Things go wrong and we leap to blame And once we leap to blame, we often leap to revenge. Yeah. We want to take revenge. We want to right the wrong that's happened to us. We want to correct the injustice. And you talk about this as part of human nature, but also give us some advice. I think it was in the Law of Power book about, I think it was Law 36. When we feel like we've been wronged, Robert, when we feel like there's been an injustice, what is the best course of action? It depends on the wrong and in the injustice. So let me give you an example. Yeah. Someone at work said, I heard they said something to my boss and it's cost me my promotion. and they're talking about me behind my back and it's annoying me. Well, there are several avenues that you can go. Everything depends on circumstances. So if you're going to be a strategist in life, which is what I recommend, you have to look at the particular parameters and not just go, there's one answer, there's several possibilities here. So number one, maybe you're in an awful job with awful office politics.
[105:00] I have a thing that I get talked about in one of my recent talks of you can scale a culture of a group on a scale of zero to 100. 100 is what I call a reality group where people are only interested in getting the job done and everything is on results. Zero is where everything is political and everything is personal and everything is about who knows who and how you brown nose your way with the boss. OK, so if you're at a company that's at that 20 percent level, then get your ass out of there. OK, you have a colleague like that, but they're probably other colleagues like that. And that person is probably always causing problems. Do you need to be at this job is the main thing you have to first ask yourself. And if you do need it, you need the job and it's only this one person. Then you have to go through a few steps. Number one, is it worth taking personally? What if I not take the high road because I hate that phrase, but what if I say, it's not really worth it for me to get upset. It better off in the long run to just act like it didn happen and to end up getting the promotion on my own in a different way and proving myself as success is the best revenge you know and how can I get there Kind of thing Ignoring him or her and what they did and only focusing on what you can do to get back to get the promotion that you deserve The third possibility is sticking it to this other person, which is always something that I think is something you might have to consider doing, right? Which is playing the game back at them. So when you're dealing with people who are unethical, like a Putin kind of type, where they're willing to do anything to get power and you're not, it's asymmetrical warfare. They have more options than you do. Okay? This person that did that to you, they're going to do anything for power, and it puts you at a constant disadvantage. What do you do? You have to do what they have in warfare called a deterrent strategy. You have to show this person that you not somebody you can mess with that you going to do something to hurt them but it controlled and it a one thing You going to damage their reputation you going to spread some nasty rumor about them But you don have to feel like you lowering yourself It just I doing it one time to show them that from now on you better not mess with me because, damn it, I've got a gun in my back pocket and I can use it. You can't just roll over because they're going to keep doing it to you time and again. So you've got three options, and you've got to choose what's the best one. If you hate your job and you can't get around this person, quit. it if you don't feel comfortable going the low road and if you think it's a better strategy in the long term for you and your soul and your safety to simply focus on your job and and get revenge that way that's probably the best solution of all but sometimes you need to have a shot across their bow to say look you can't attack me because if you do they're going to be consequences to pay Because these types of people, they prey on those who seem weakest, right? Predators love prey. Yeah. But if you do the option number two and you show that you don really that they didn affect you and you kind of act like it didn matter sort of thing but you still work hard and you still doing your job they going to wonder like hmm that pretty impressive That interesting This person has self And they maybe going to be afraid of you in that sense by the fact by the composure that you show them. So everything depends on who you are, your nature, and the nature of this Machiavellian character that you're facing, you know. but um be alive to the moment in the circumstances and play for the long game so sometimes the long game means showing that you can mean action because then they're going to leave you alone for the next couple of years when we zoom out on what's going on in the world um a lot has changed a lot has changed one of the things that's changed is our society as i think i've heard you say is less united by some of these great myths of religion and, you know, I've heard you talk about democracy and all these kinds of things. And as a result, people no longer believe in the same ideas because every form of authority is now under question. And you're someone who studies history. You're someone that understands the cycles of history. What cycle of history are we in at this moment in time? And how does one navigate it? Well, you have to take a big picture.
[110:00] especially if you're someone like me who studies history a lot. So there are always these moments in history of cycles of chaos where, and it could be caused in the past by a plague, by some terrible war that goes on, like the Hundred Years' War in Europe, where people feel genuinely powerless and helpless, and there's a crisis of meaning in the world. And I can point to specific moments in the ancient world, in Asia, in Europe, but it goes on and on. It's a cycle that happens. And when people feel powerless and helpless and there's all this chaos going around them, then they tend to be attracted to authoritarian figures, to easy solutions. They get much more irrational. they're much more likely to fall for cults and for belief systems that offer simple solutions and easy one sentence answers like make America great again kind of thing, you know? Wow, that sounds that simple. It's easy. Yeah that the we vote for that Right So in moments of chaos and helplessness people are going to grab for something that anchors them that gives them a sense of meaning Right But it often something very very dangerous So we're in a moment like that right now, I think, around the world. It's not just the United States. Believe it or not, things can happen under the skin and are subtle, like climate change. There are a lot of people who don't believe in climate change, but it's affecting everyone. It's making everyone a bit neurotic, the sense that we can't control our climate, right? That these disasters are going to keep happening and happening. That's a major sense of helplessness. The global economy, where now your business is at the mercy of something that's going on in Indonesia or Japan or China, is a tremendous sense of helplessness and a lack of control. and your political figures don't seem to be responding to you in any way. Like their actions, their talk doesn't lead to the kind of results that you want. So you're very prone to following what demagogues say who offer you like easy solutions. OK so if you living in a time like that and it more dangerous now than in the past because of social media and because of memes and because of the viral effects that are sweeping through humanity right They didn't have that during the bubonic plague, during the Hundred Years' War, during the French Industrial Revolution, which was another period of incredible dramatic change in Europe at the turn of the 19th century. Right. So they didn't have that, which is adds to the brew and makes it much more dangerous. So having a longer view is to say, well, you know, this is a moment, a moment of chaos, and I'm going to be in control of what I think and what I believe. So I'm going to have a degree of distrust of what people are telling me. I'm not going to get so emotional when people start saying this is what's evil. This is what's wrong with the world. And to be very, very, very wary of people with simple solutions who say, if we just do this one thing, everything will be great. If we just add tariffs if we just get rid of all the immigrants America will be fabulous These are fairy tales that are being peddled to you I not trying to be political because the other side peddles their own kinds of fairy tales Believe me I understand that Can I ask you a question about this book, which is kind of linked to what you're saying now, The 48 Laws of Power? What demographic emails you the most about the book? Young men. Young men voted for Trump. I know. you're someone that i sense and from what i've understood from my research isn't a big fan of trump and so what what do you say to those people about why you have that position and what their misunderstanding potentially the thing that i do want to say is that you want to be able to think for yourself okay so let's say you think trump is the answer he's going to have he's going to solve all of our problems. Well, be capable of stepping back and going, maybe some of the things he's doing, I don't agree with, aren't right. You know, have some discrimination, have some self distance, be able to criticize your own side. So I'm on the left, on the Democratic liberal side. They are buffoons. They are fools. They are out of absolutely incompetent.
[115:00] And I'm afraid to say it. They make terrible mistakes. They blew this election. They're stupid. And it's painful to say that because it's the side that I support. But I do not believe in everything that they promote. There are things I disagree with them on. Some of their woke policies I just find are ludicrous. Okay? So be able to stand back and say, I don't agree with everything he says. Have some dignity. Have some self-worth. say that i can think for myself and not get so emotional right so you think being masculine and being a bro is to just say oh robert f you you're such an idiot you're so blah blah blah blah you know put youtube comments because i get them all the time you know f you you you can fill in the blanks right that's not being masculine that's not being tough or strong that's being an idiot because you're not able to think for yourself, right? Being emotional isn't masculinity. Masculinity is self-control, I'm afraid. Being masculine is being able to step back and go, this isn necessarily the right thing to do I have to think about it I have to do something that more productive that positive I have to criticize myself sometimes Weak people can't criticize themselves. So if you're listening to me, at least be willing to say that maybe some of my ideas are wrong. My ideas and your ideas, right? That to me is strength. That to me is a masculine virtue. being able to criticize your own side and not get always so emotional and overheated and leaving nasty youtube comments as i'm sure i'm going to get right now you made me reflect on something i read the other day i think it was on x and it was a study that shows that when the more testosterone you have again which we can use as like a proxy for masculinity in studies you're more likely to think for yourself so they had two groups of um two Two groups of people. And they gave one group of people testosterone. I think it was a group of men, testosterone. They both had to do this test. And the ones who had the higher testosterone levels had been given the artificial testosterone. They were less likely to cave in to external social expectation. Wow. Which I thought was a proxy for what you're saying, which is. Right on man Potentially real masculinity is having the strength of your own convictions and being able to ignore social pressure to conform You talked about wokeness in the left and how they messed it up I consider myself to be, I'd say apolitical, but it's more, it sounds like a strange thing to say. I can just see the merits in things on both sides. So I really struggle to identify with the side. I think, okay, that's good for the economy. That's good for different social classes and stuff. And so I also just have, I think, a very strong negative reaction to the binary choice that you're kind of forced to make. Yeah, right. I just, you know, so I just I've always kind of stayed out of it. But in terms of this wokeness and the way that the left have screwed it up, what have they got wrong? Well, what's Trump got right, I guess? Well, I don't know. It's too painful for me to say what Trump got right. Well, you've got to be able to. I know he is. I'll tell you what he's he gets right and what he's really brilliant at, which is communication and messaging. So the Democrats completely suck at that. Right. They couldn craft a message to save their life if if they were you know if everything depended on it they just terrible at it They don know how to communicate They don know how to make a simple message Now I said simple messages can be deceptive but in politics you have to have something like that You have to stand for a vision for something straight and you have to be strong and you have to be willing to fight for it. So I do have the ear of some people in the Democratic Party. and I say, what you got wrong and what Trump got right is to show the public that you are fighters, that you are strong, that you believe in something, and that you're willing to upset other people, other groups, because you believe in certain things. A large portion of the public he doesn't care about. He's interested in his base. He doesn't care if he's hated. Okay, Democrats, don't care if you upset this special interest group or that special interest group. Some people have to hate you. Being hated is a good thing. Stand for something and be willing to fight. You got that all wrong. He got that right. So I can admit that. And he's much better at communicating and messaging. Okay. When it comes to policies, there's a pretty big gulf between us about what I think is good and bad. But, I mean, wokeness is – it's an ideology that is –
[120:00] really connected to everyday life, to what's going on around us, right? It's kind of a purity test of these are certain things that we hold, and you better either, if you believe in them, you're on the good side, and if you don't believe them, you're on the wrong side. It's a polarity, it's a black and white binary way of looking at the world, and that's not reality. That's not how things are. Things aren't black and white. things have a gray zone. Yes, there are things that are evil. Murder is evil. You know, social injustice. We can all agree on certain social injustices. Yeah. But it's not like this purity test of if you don't believe in this, you're an evil, bad person. You know, so on the Israel-Palestine issue, for instance, now I happen to be Jewish, right? And I've never been a Zionist my whole life. I'm very happy to be Jewish. I was bar mitzvahed and I have nothing against it. And I'm not a practicing religious person in Judaism I understand because I lost a large part of my ancestry during the Holocaust It was deeply part of my childhood a very traumatic thing that even my parents were still recovering from So when it comes to Israel-Palestine, I'm very conflicted because I've met Palestinians who had a terrible impact on me as they described the horror of what happened to them and how the loss of their land and how deeply, what a beautiful country Palestine was and how traumatic it was to lose their home. But at the same time, Jews were completely homeless from the Holocaust, and they did originate from this land. I can see both sides, and it's very painful. And if I were to craft a solution, first of all, I think Netanyahu is a horrible person, but there is a middle ground that could be had where there could be a two-state solution. But the woke people, oh, God, forget it, man. You're just you're just you're in favor of genocide. Get out of here. That's not life. That's not reality. That's not how the world works. It's not how things happen in this world. You're not dealing with the real world. You're just trying to act like you're morally pure. You not really willing to sacrifice to roll up your sleeves and come up with practical solutions You just want to yell and rant and act and look like you the most virtuous person on the planet But isn't this one of the laws of human nature? Fitting into our tribes? Because I think being in the being in the sort of political middle or wherever I am, you get attacked from both sides. Because sometimes you'll have a conversation with this person and they'll say, Oh my god, you're your right wing, they'll have a conversation with this person and they'll say, Oh my god, you're a left wing and so you just you never fit actually my instinct is tempted my instinct my sort of like my primitive instinct is like just if i can pick a side steve and then at least you'll have a bunch of people to protect you you talk about that as well how having a group of people around you and not being in isolation offers protection yeah so it's tempting it's tempting but you're going to lose your soul you're going to lose your dignity in the process So it fine to be part of a group I remember I was a young man in 1983 I was on the left for sure I don deny it I went to Nicaragua to report as a journalist on the war going on between the Contras and the Sandinistas And I was more on the Sandinista side And they ended up as things have rolled out that Sandinistas are truly evil I mean Ortega and what he done to Nicaragua is truly evil. But at the time, I thought they were pretty great. And I remember one day, there was this immense plaza that they had, and I was in Managua. And Managua had just suffered this incredible earthquake. Half the city was in rubble still. But there was this immense plaza. It was filled with everyone because the Pope had come there. And, you know, and it was a big deal because the son Denise was like, you know, anti-God or something, which wasn't true. Anyway, I was there with hundreds of thousands of people. And the feeling of being in the group where everybody was on the same side was so intoxicating. I felt a ripple through me that I've never had in my life again. I've just been connected to all of these people. It was so joyous and exciting, but then it's also very dangerous as well. So, you know, I liked having that experience, but as I got older, I go, I don't want to feel like that again because I think it can turn very ugly and dangerous as it ended up turning that way.
[125:00] in Nicaragua. You know, it's like a Hitler crowd kind of thing. I'm always fascinated, weirdly enough as a Jew, by Hitler documentaries. I can watch every single Hitler documentary. It's just riveting to watch like these Nuremberg rallies. My God, it's like a drug. It's insane. All the people with their torches all marching in the same way with these insignias, everything. You can understand how people will get caught up in that kind of mania, right? But it's very dangerous. And even that moment in Managua, later when I think back on it, maybe I should have had a little more self-distance from that. Do you think we're in a similar time now where we're getting caught up in mania? yes we're getting caught up in in easy solutions and and things that um aren't really thought out i mean what is human stupidity question that that has um fast obsessed me for a long time and in fact the third book in my series was originally supposed to be the history of human stupidity but my publishers thought it was too negative a subject and it would have also been too long of a book But stupidity is the inability to think of the consequences of your actions to think that you are certain that you know the answers, to take action based on this certainty, but to not think of steps three, four, and five that are going to happen as a result. And man, I'm seeing that all over the place on our political map where people take action. It's like our id is running the world, like adolescence, like, you know, I'll do this, man. This will be cool. This will be interesting. You don't realize that you're going to get in a car wreck because you took this drug and you're driving your car. We're getting a lot of that kind of adolescent mentality. I'm going to take this action because it's fierce. It's angry. It's going to solve things. But the consequences down the road five years from now are going to be horrific. That is human stupidity. You said that Trump is deploying the laws of power. What laws of power has Trump successfully deployed? Court attention at all costs. He's the master of it. He's I remember I was in on a book tour. I can remember where it was some corner of the world Maybe it was Australia maybe it was Singapore and everybody was talking about Donald Trump It was like the whole world is obsessed with him I don't think there's ever been a moment in history where anybody has had that kind of power. Court attention at all costs, he's the absolute master of it. He's law number 27, play on people's need to believe to create a cult-like following. He has a cult-like following. Right. People, nothing he does can be wrong. He was actually God is on his side. God is protecting him. That's a cult. I'm sorry, but that's a cult. This is politics. It's not religion. You know, interaction with boldness. He knows how to interaction with boldness. Law 28, I believe, or 29. So there's several laws. He creates compelling spectacles, but there are a lot of laws that he violates as well. At my company Flight Studio, which is part of my bigger company flight group, we're constantly looking for ways to build deeper connections with our audiences. Whether that's a new show, a product or a project, it's why I launched the conversation cards. I've relied on Shopify before, who's a sponsor of today's podcast, and I be using them again for the next big launch which we hear about soon And I use them because of how easy it is to set up an online store that reaches all of you no matter where you are in the world with Shopify the usual pain points of launching products online disappear completely no matter the size of your business Shopify has everything you need to make your business go to the next level and better connect with your customers all over the world to say thank you to all of you for listening to my show we're giving you a trial which is just one dollar a month you can sign up by going to shopify.com slash Bartlett that's shopify.com slash Bartlett or find the link in the description below one one of the things i was thinking about over the christmas period was um identity and the pitfalls of having an identity yeah in life and it reminds me of law 48 in the 48 laws of power which is to assume formlessness yeah what do you think of the the subject of identity because it's useful to some degree but it can also be a downfall as you alluded to at the start of this conversation when you say that you know someone gets to 30 40 years old and they've almost have like a midlife crisis because they've not they're now like successful i don't know accountant yeah and that that's their identity that's their friendship circle i'm wondering what your perspective on identity is it's good not to think in in
[130:00] such concrete terms of this is who I am to put these labels on it. Like I'm a lawyer, like I'm a right-wing Trump follower, like I'm an entrepreneur. You're much more than that, right? There's something else about who you are, right? You have a soul. I know that's an old-fashioned concept, but I believe people have a soul. and it can be their character, their traits that they have, that almost they have when they're born. It's what makes them who they are. It's their sense of dignity that they return to that self. But I can't put a label on it. I can't put a word on it. I can't say it's being a lawyer, being white, black, left, right, or whatever, right? I like to think, and this will sound like I'm John Lennon in Imagine or some sentimental thing like that, but I like to think of myself as a citizen of the world, as a citizen of the universe. So personally, maybe it's just me. I interested in every single culture in every single religion You know I am just as much fascinated by the Yoruba religion in West Africa as I am by Buddhism Islam etc They all fascinate me Every country every culture has something incredibly interesting about it. I've been studying things like the Aztec culture, I wrote about extensively in my new book. Just an amazing story, amazing history. It's not me. I'm not ethnically Mexican. I'm not related to it through time or anything, but I'm related to it as a human being, and I identify with it on a very deep level. Which poem? The sense of magic, the sense of awe in the face of this universe, the incredible sense of spectacle that they created. this and i describe it in my new book the city that they created to knock titlan it was one of the greatest most beautiful cities that ever existed that mankind has ever created on a par with venice italy completely destroyed by the conquistadors nothing of it remains if you go to mexico city you see nothing they destroyed everything but the picture presented by the first conquistadors that arrive there my God this is like a fairy tale It is so beautiful Their artwork their culture their music just blows me away when I read about their philosophy I identify with that. If we only had some distance, we only realized that we all come from the same roots, that there really is no such a thing as an ethnicity, that we all come from the same human beings, that it's all relative, that all the cultures are related, that all human beings are interrelated. It's such a simplistic notion, but it kind of destroys all of our separations, all our partisanship, all of our niggly little sense of identity. I don't get my identity from being from California or Los Angeles or being Jewish or being American. I get it from being a human being with this incredible vast history. Nobody else is going to follow me in this, I know. it's just me. It's my wish. And if human beings in 100 years could believe that, it would be so beneficial for us in some way. It would mean we all have to protect this planet so that we can give it to our children that climate change affects all of us that we all in this together I know I sounding not like the guy who wrote the 48 Laws of Power so excuse me for that The book you referring to that you currently writing and you getting to the end of, thankfully, is it called The Law of Sublime? Law of the Sublime, yeah. You've progressed with that book since we last spoke, so I'm just wondering if I ask you the question now what that book is about and why you're writing it. You know, you talked earlier on in this conversation about being really clear on while you're doing something. Why are you writing that book? Well, I write my books always with a sense of urgency, like it's going to help people because we're facing a problem. I felt the 48 Laws of Power was at a moment where people were too naive. I felt the art of seduction when people didn't understand about the psychology of dealing with the sexes, etc. I wrote the war book because I felt people were terrible at strategy. The 50 cent book is different, but mastery because people had lost a sense of how to master profession, human nature because people were really bad at dealing with people. Now, the problem, I think, is our minds are getting smaller and smaller and smaller and smaller. We're so absorbed in things that are so unimportant, so banal, so trivial, so stupid.
[135:00] At the same time, science is showing us the most marvelous things you could possibly imagine, you know, about the Big Bang Theory. We're being able to understand what the first minutes of our universe were like. We're able to take a picture inside of a black hole and understand what's going on in a black hole. We're able to understand the history of Earth. Someday we're going to know how life began. It's insane what science is showing us about this world, about the world that we were living in about this world that we were born into and i want to open your eyes and expand your consciousness instead of shrink it to the dimensions of what we're actually facing in this world what how insane it is to be sharing the planet with animals and their strange consciousness how they think differently but how we can connect to them we're the only animal that's conscious that we know of but we can connect to animals on a way that is just insane i call it the interspecies sublime right i'm talking about how our childhood was a moment of incredible sublimity how we were so open some people had a very painful child i don know but we were very open to the world and very imaginative about how strange it is to be alive that very easily dinosaurs could be roaming this planet right now if a meteor hadn't knocked out the dinosaurs 60 some million years ago okay on and on and on i talked about love you know um i'm writing now about artworks and aesthetics and things that trigger the sublime in us, nature, death, which will be obviously the last chapter. But I just want you to sense that there is something very strange about being alive in the 21st century and not take it for granted and not just be caught up in everything that's so familiar and conventional and banal and open your eyes because as you do this, your emotions open up you're able to feel different things your thoughts open up you're able to have different ideas you become more creative your can't your consciousness expands anyway i could go on forever because i've been writing the book forever but that's sort of what it's about and you think it'll be ready by 2026 if it isn't i don't know if i'll still be here because it literally it hard to explain even but I can type and I can take a walk and I can do the things that I used to do to kind of decompress So I have to I have to handwrite everything in two notebooks with sticky pads here and there. It's like it's like a rat's maze. And then I dictated on the computer. it's taken me this will be like ends up being like six years of work because the process has been so difficult for me so my publisher i've written i'm going to finish in a few weeks the 10th chapter i have two left i'm projecting to finish that by the end of the year which give me enough time to have it published in 2026 i hope i pray because if not i don't know if my body can take it anymore do you mean that when you say that you're not sure if your body can take it anymore yeah i can't man i can't take the focus it's like for three weeks now i've been going this isn't working this isn't working this isn't working i'm not sleeping my my stomach is all churning okay i'm getting too old for this then suddenly i break through and then it comes back and then it happens again and again when i start a chapter the first couple months i'm relaxed i breathing i fine then when i near the end of the chapter i turn into the tightest person you can imagine I so tight And then I finish it So I can take much more of this to be honest with you because I had a stroke I'm not a young man anymore. So I, you know, I'm not going to I'm not going to be overly dramatic here. I don't want to be a drama queen. I'm going to I'll live. I'll be fine. But seriously, I can't I couldn't take another like two years of this. I couldn't make that. two years of this book yeah no more you're gonna write another book though aren't you oh yeah yeah yeah i'm gonna write a book about kittens or about you know or about the lakers or something easy i don't know something nice and simple yeah one of the um the clips that i saw the other day that's your one of the most viewed clips from you was about the primary law of human psychology is that people judge based on appearances This isn't a nice thing to confront, although everybody knows it's true. What does that mean? Well, I mean, it was a talk that I gave recently in Atlanta, and I was trying to show the game of power as it's played, the rules of the game. And the one thing that I was trying to emphasize is that power is a game of pure psychology.
[140:00] psychology. And what I mean by that is when you have a sports, you have a game like baseball, it's all statistics and data mostly, right? And there's a winner and there's a loser. They won the game five to nothing, et cetera. Okay. So there are parameters. There's very little psychology involved, although in sports and soccer, football, there's some psychology, but a lot of it's just playing and winning. But power isn't like that. So when we elect a leader like Donald Trump over Kamala Harris, you might say, oh, he got more votes. But what is your judgment, your decision on voting for Donald Trump over Kamala Harris? Was it you spent four hours with a spreadsheet going over all of their economic policies, deciding this is what's going to happen, this is how it's going to benefit me? No, it was based on appearances, on psychology. He seemed like a leader. He seemed like he had more authority. I kind of like his ideas, but you're not going very deeply into it, right? It's his appearance that mattered. CEOs are often hired because of their optics because it not based completely on the amount of money they made And I believe me I saw this firsthand when I was on the board of directors People were hired not on their superior track record but on their political skills often. Yeah. Political skills as in their ability to do sort of office politics and stuff like that. Yeah. I mean, there was some metrics involved, but a lot of it was optics. OK, so the idea is success. The power game, the rules of power are understanding human psychology. Never outshine the master. You're creating the appearance that you respect the master, that they are better than you, that you are going to obey them. You're going to follow them. You're playing that game. Always say less than necessary. You're wearing the mask of somebody powerful who learns to control their tongue and control their behavior. Court attention at all costs. You know the behavior that will get people to look at you and attend to you. Do not build fortresses. You understand that appearing isolated at somebody is very dangerous. You know how to play the perfect courtier. You create the appearance of power. And that is the power game is creating the appearance of it. It becomes a self prophecy Now of course results do matter They do figure into the picture I won deny that But the main part of the game the main part of the laws are understanding the role of appearances being a good actor and knowing how to manage that properly in a group situation. So if two people walked in here and one of them had the appearance of power and one of them didn't, what would the person who had the appearance of power be doing? How would they be carrying themselves? How would they be speaking? Well, a lot of our idea of a leader and power is nonverbal stuff. Because as I said, we're an animal. We're a social animal. We don't like to understand that, but it's true. And so a lot of it's the body language. So a powerful person in a meeting is kind of relaxed. They're kind of like this. They can put their bodies anywhere, right? There's other persons like all tight and nervous and aware. A powerful person has a directed focus. A weak person is always looking around, touching their hair, touching their face. There's a word for it. I forget what it is nonverbal communication but it a sign of insecurity right A powerful person is able to look at everybody in the room directly whereas somebody who weak is always kind of averting their gaze There are these signs of kind of confidence and charisma where you feel you are powerful and it emanates outward. Your eyes have that certain gaze. It's unfortunate because for women, it's a little bit harder to play that game because some of the things that read as powerful for men, for women should read as powerful, but often read as she's mean, she's a bitch. So women have a harder time in playing this game of appearances because they're judged so much on their looks and not about these other things. So it's complicated. But there are these kind of cues that people give off that show that they inwardly feel secure and powerful and it kind of emanates outward. There's a law in there, act like a king to be treated like one. If you feel like you're a king or a queen, people will believe that you are. It becomes a self-fulfilling prophecy. And I have this story in there of Christopher Columbus, who was like the son of
[145:00] like a grocer somewhere in like Portugal or whatever. But he convinced all of the kings of Spain that he came from nobility. And it was a total con game. And they believed it. But he carried himself like that. He believed it. And they gave him all this money to go and explore America. That's sort of the iconic story that I use for that. So you can fake it till you make it? You can to a degree. But at some point, it'll catch up to you if you can't deliver results. So if it's all just make believe, if it's all just hype, if it's all just appearance and optics, you won't get very far because you have to end up producing. And some of the laws are about that. It's not all about that. So plan all the way to the end is about like getting the results that you want by planning all the way to the end. You know, so it's not just just faking it. That'll get you somewhere. But at some point you have to produce. Real confidence, the real confidence to be relaxed in your chair, to hold eye contact with somebody. Where does that come from when we think about confidence and power? Well it can come from one of two things It can kind of come from almost a form of insanity where you believe since you were a child that you were destined for something great I so amazing I so wonderful. And you feel it. And it's not completely made up. You actually do get things done. But you have that natural air that like a prince would have, right? What if you don't have any confidence? Can you cultivate it? Yes, you can. You can. The thing is, the best way to cultivate it is to actually have results that show to actually have a record to go upon. So you can kind of fake it like Columbus did. But Columbus already had achieved some things when he did that. He'd already had some naval skills, I believe. Don't quote me on that. But it's good to have some things to hang your hat on that will help give you that confidence. So it's not completely faked. But William James, the great American psychologist, talked about as-if strategies. And it a very important concept in psychology from the early 20th century If you believe as if you were confident as if you are powerful it will tend to be read that way right and so like he had the analogy if you smile even though you don't feel like smiling you'll end up kind of maybe feeling kind of happy So the physical action will create the psychological action, which is his belief, because he was very much a believer in the body, things starting from the body. So if you believe physically and bodily embodied that you are great, that you deserve this, it will kind of become part of your psychology and it will radiate outward. But for those that don't, they just don't have that belief. Can you lie to yourself? Can you tell yourself, I am strong and I am powerful? Well, everybody has some good qualities, right? But everybody, I think almost everybody has something that they can go back to in the past and go, I was actually very good at that. That was actually a good moment. I actually was scored in that particular moment. And you can think about that. I mean, actors do that all the time in movies. When they want to express an emotion they go back into their past Like they have to express sadness They go back and they think about their father or mother who died and they call that emotion up You can call that emotion up of when you did something actually really great. You might have only been in high school when you were on the sports team and you threw the touchdown or something. Okay, think about that and it'll come back to you. Everybody has something that they can be confident about, I hope. If there was one law that the powerless amongst us who feel powerless or lost in the current world, one law or one fact of human nature that people who are feeling lost and purposeless and adrift right now should be thinking the most about, which one springs to mind? Well, there's no one sharp answer to this kind of thing, but one law that I would highlight is interaction with boldness. And what I mean by that is, if you're feeling timid, if you're feeling that you're not confident in something, you will start a project and it will fail because you feel that.
[150:00] way because you don't enter into it with the right energy so if you feel if you take something and you do something boldly everybody loves the bold everybody admires it even if it's stupid even if it fails it will gain you that kind of attention and so let's say you're thinking about starting a business well just go ahead and do it and be bold about it and start it and be as dramatic as as you can and be as confident as you can. And it creates a self-fulfilling dynamic. People admire it. They don't admire the timid and the insecure and the guy who spends two years talking about that podcast he's going to start. They admire that bloke who just decided, all right, I'm going to start it. I don't care if nobody likes it. Fine. You know, I remember this guy interviewed me once. He had a magazine called Bad Ideas, and it was a really successful magazine in like the early 2000s. And I said, where did you get that idea? And he said, my mother told me that to start that magazine was a really bad idea. Right. So I thought I'd put the title there, you know, and that would be the title of it. And I just went ahead and started it. And it was very successful because it was a great like marketing gimmick And it also worked and it was actually full of bad ideas of the thing but very in a very interesting way So being bold being different. Everybody nowadays, I'm getting on my goddamn soapbox again. I apologize to everyone about this. But everyone is so similar. Everybody is so afraid. Everyone's trying to be like everybody else, you go out there and you start something that's different, that's you, that's unique, that's loud, that proclaims I'm a different voice on it, you're going to get attention. So I want more bold people in this world. We've got too much fear. I'm not maybe a big admirer of in some ways of Elon Musk, but damn it, he's always bold and it always works for him. He doesn't start just a minimal business about maybe sending rockets out there. He starts thinking it's going to take you to Mars. He's bold and people love it. The world moves out the way of boldness. I was thinking as you're speaking about a memory of mine of being at a festival in New York City called Global Citizen. I was like Beyonce was performing and stuff, all the biggest names in the world. And my friend was drunk and we were in the like VIP section behind the stage, but we could see that there was this access all areas artist section And because my friend was drunk I never witnessed anything like it this guy gets me takes my hand goes come with me he walks directly at the two massive security guards with this boldness this conviction they just move out of the way I thought you could say they punched him no they just moved out of the way because of the way he was walking they just thought well he must he must be in here yeah yeah and they moved out of the way they didn't check his pass they just moved out of the way and he continued to do that all day and it was because he was drunk. He's done a documentary about this. He used to be an alcoholic. So he had this confidence when he was drunk, where the world would just like move out of his way. And he ended up going in what I believe to be the president of some Asian countries dressing room, again, because he was just walking at things. And the way he was walking, it just moved out of his way. But I've never forgotten that. Actually, I deployed it today when I went for a run with my girlfriend because I wanted to use a bathroom in a restaurant. And I figured that if I just walk with a certain conviction, the staff will like, let me pass. They'll assume maybe I'm sat here. I ended up walking through a conference. It was like a conference hall in this hotel where they're checking people's badges just because the way I was walking, nobody checked mine. Right. And there a metaphor here for life And you kind of allude to it in your book about like the bolder you are the better Some of these subheadings I find really cool Lion circle the hesitant prey Boldness strikes fear and fear creates authority Going halfway with half a heart digs the deeper grave. Hesitation creates gaps. Boldness obliterates them. And audacity separates you from the herd. Yeah, yeah. I want one thing, if I have one legacy, if I create more bold people in this world, I will be happy because we've got too many timid hairs out there. We need more bold lions. Start your business, write that book, do it, just do it, please. And then write me afterwards and either blame me or thank me. I wish I'd been bolder when I was starting my entrepreneurial career. I wish someone had said to me, whatever your dream is, Steve, when you describe it to people, times it by 10, whatever number you're trying to raise as an investment, times it by 10. Sure. In negotiations, you ask for $200,000. That's what you get. You ask for a million. You maybe get $500,000, but it's $300,000 more than you would have gotten if you'd been timid. Always in negotiation, ask the higher price and mean it and say it with conviction, right? And make sure you think your price is high. You'll get the higher.
[155:00] price. It takes a certain confidence though and that's really what's I think at the heart of the problem. Maybe we just want you to be a bit more drunk. That's the lesson. That's law. Well we have a closing position on this podcast where the last guest leaves a question for the next guest but knowing who they're going to be leaving it for. The question that's been left for you is close your eyes and imagine yourself 10 years from now where are you what are you doing and who are you with i'm hoping that i'm alive and healthy and that my uh walking has gotten better so that i can take a walk and that i'm i'm with my wife and that we're climbing a mountain which I haven't been able to do, I loved hiking, and I'm able to do that, I will be crying in that moment because I am so frustrated not being able to do what I love the most. And if that moment arrives in 10 years, God, I don't know how I'll be so joyous, you know, to be able to do something that I love so much and has been taken away from me and to have it back I not asking to be you know an athlete or do what I could do before If I could just take a simple walk up a hill I be so happy That's what I'm imagining. It's a really important lesson because we just take it also for granted, don't we? Please don't. Please don't. And other people I read about who've had experiences like this, who were in an accident at a young age. It's worse because I was already in my early 60s. who've had this. It's just like, how do you deal with it? You know, people who are like athletic, who are energetic, who are outdoors, and it's all taken away. It's a terrible story, but you learn life skills and you learn how to deal with it. And then I still have my brain, so I'm able to write a book, thank God. But I really, really want to be able to swim and hike again. God, I'd be so happy. It's um that's everything in perspective when you tell me that you'd be in you'd be crying tears of joy to walk up a hill I just to walk up straight up the hill where I'm on the street I am I would be crying I would my wife can can attest to that because I'm so frustrated I'd be so happy you know yeah what would you say to someone like me who is quite clearly because of the privilege that I have of my mobility going to be taking taking it all for granted well you know i want people walk by my window in my office i told you i think it was on my last conversation i mentioned this so i don't want to keep repeating myself but i see them walking their dog or riding their bicycle or jogging and go they don't realize how beautiful that looks to me they don't appreciate it. And because they don't appreciate it, it doesn't mean that much to them. It means more to me than it does to them. They should be appreciating it. They should be thinking. I think of my neighbor. He's just out in his driveway fixing cars and he's listening to his music. He should be so happy that he's got his body, that he's doing this, that he's in the moment, that he's present. But he's not. I'm the one that's feeling his joy at being like that. But you should be feeling that in your everyday activities, that you're alive, that you're a human being. That walking, you take for granted walking. As somebody who can't walk, I know you're always balancing on one leg. You don't realize that when you walk. The miracle of a human walk is at every moment you always on one leg That a balancing act And you able to do that and you able to run and do it Don take that stuff for granted you know because I can every step I take I have to think about balancing on that left leg of mine You had a wasp or a bee sting that resulted in a stroke, which is what changed your mobility. If you could go back and speak to Robert before that 20-year-old Robert, and you could just whisper something to him. I would whisper to 20-year-old Robert, just don't think about it, Robert. Everything is going to come out okay. Just be who you are. don't regret anything it's all working out for the best and uh just i can't say like i would say enjoy the moment because i was enjoying my 20s immensely but maybe when i was 34 i would have said you know don't give up it's going to happen everything's going to fit into place and you're going to have an amazing life you're going to be meeting stevie wonder one of your idols when you your kid. Bob Dylan is going to be mentioning you in a book and has read your book. The people that you loved
[160:00] For a kid, you're going to be meeting and hanging out with 50 Cent. You're going to be meeting presents. You have no idea what's ahead of you. Okay, I would have maybe said something like that. But then maybe I would have gotten lazy and I wouldn't have written it because I would have thought, oh, it's all going to happen. So maybe the doubt and the worry is useful. And the neurotic energy, yeah. Robert, thank you so much. We're all very, very excited for your upcoming book. Oh, yeah, so am I. So you talk about urgency. we can't wait okay um and we're very much looking forward to it because i know how much you pour into these books and you've expressed how much you sort of agonize over it being exactly what you wanted to say and not all authors are like that yeah some are a little bit more flippant um so i appreciate that so much and i appreciate the time that you've spent on my show and the value that you've given my audience they i was looking at some of the comments earlier and it's just incredible the impact you've had on people by sharing your own story talking about the stroke and and the gratitude that that's given you for life and the gratitude we need to have. So thank you so unbelievably much Thank you for the opportunity for the honor of being on this incredibly exciting podcast of podcast As I say every morning this is my third time I always had like a I always been in a good mood the morning before I don't know if it's a coincidence or if it's something about being on your podcast. So thank you. The honour is all mine. Thank you, Robert. You're welcome. This has always blown my mind a little bit. Fifty three percent of you that listen to the show regularly haven't yet subscribed to the show. If you like the show and you like what we do here and you want to support us, the free simple way that you can do just that is by hitting the subscribe button. And my commitment to you is if you do that, then I'll do everything in my power, me and my team, to make sure that this show is better for you every single week. We'll listen to your feedback. We'll find the guests that you want me to speak to and we'll continue to do what we do. Thank you so much. Thank you.
