## Background
Published on YouTube by The Diary Of A CEO on March 3, 2025, this video features clinical social worker, psychoanalyst, and parent guidance expert Erica Komisar. The description outlines her background as an author and details a discussion covering early childhood attachment, the root causes of the rising ADHD diagnoses, daycare's impact on infant development, and parental roles.
## TL;DR
In this interview, Erica Komisar argues that modern societal shifts and premature daycare placement inflict severe stress on infants during critical windows of neuroplasticity, driving a rise in ADHD and attachment disorders. She stresses the irreplaceable biological role of maternal presence in the first three years of life to build emotional security and buffer against chronic anxiety. Komisar also addresses the developmental differences between mothers and fathers, the limitations of psychiatric medication for children, and practical strategies for healing relational trauma across adolescence and adulthood.
## Atmosphere & style
The interview carries an urgent, intense, and deeply provocative tone as host Steven Bartlett explores Komisar's controversial perspectives on modern parenting. Komisar speaks with absolute clinical conviction and candid authority, unapologetically challenging mainstream cultural and corporate norms around childcare. The mood alternates between shocking realizations about early stress responses and empathetic, grounded advice for parents trying to navigate emotional trauma.
## Key takeaways
- [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=0s) 1 in 5 children globally and in the U.S. develop a serious mental health condition, a crisis originating from decades of hyper-individualism and maternal separation rather than social media.
- [02:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=136s) Attachment security must be established during two critical neuroplasticity windows: ages 0–3, when 85% of the right brain develops, and ages 9–25.
- [13:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=794s) Mothers and fathers serve distinct biological roles: mothers act as external nervous systems through oxytocin-driven empathetic care, while fathers regulate high-energy emotions through vasopressin-driven play and protective behavior.
- [28:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1724s) Insecure attachment in infancy manifests in three main adult patterns: avoidant (depression/self-reliance), ambivalent (severe anxiety), and disorganized (Borderline Personality Disorder and rage).
- [53:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3207s) Civilized societies should mandate at least one year of fully paid parental leave, allowing parents to prioritize physical presence over institutional daycare during early child development.
- [01:02:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3779s) ADHD diagnoses are largely a chronic hypervigilant stress response caused by premature daycare placement and sleep training, which overstimulate the developing amygdala.
- [01:13:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4434s) Children inherit a 'sensitivity gene' (short allele on the serotonin receptor), which requires physically and emotionally present early caregiving to epigenetically prevent ADHD, anxiety, and depression.
- [01:23:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5006s) Relational 'little T' trauma, such as early attachment disruptions or emotional neglect, is a primary driver of adult depression and anxiety, whereas Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) sharply increase ADHD risk.
- [01:47:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6469s) Children under age three do not require peer socialization; institutional daycare forces prolonged cortisol elevation, whereas healthy independence develops through parental 'rapprochement'.
- [02:12:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7926s) Primary stay-at-home caregiving in men triggers elevated oxytocin and a 30–35% drop in testosterone, which can lead to male depression, loss of purpose, and marital friction.
- [02:23:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8616s) Adolescent brains experience up to 10x higher dopamine response to screens than adults; screen exposure under age two should be completely avoided to prevent chronic amygdala over-activation.
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=0s) Introduction and the Silent Crisis in Child Mental Health
One in five children currently develops a serious mental health condition—ranging from anxiety and depression to ADHD and severe behavioral disorders—before reaching adulthood. In the UK, the figure stands at one in six, while globally it sits at roughly one in five. Parenting expert and psychoanalyst Erica Komisar emphasizes that this crisis is not an inevitable byproduct of modern life, but the direct result of societal choices that ignore fundamental developmental needs. Rather than addressing the root causes of emotional dysregulation, current mental health approaches merely "cut the grass"—offering psychiatric medication and Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) as form of pain management rather than genuine prevention.
Komisar argues that societal norms surrounding early childhood must be fundamentally re-examined. Contrary to popular belief, placing infants in daycare for early "socialization" often inflicts measurable harm on their developing brains, driving up rates of aggression, behavioral issues, and attachment disorders. Infants require the primary emotional security of their mothers during the critical first three years. Furthermore, the modern idea that "quality time" can replace "quantity of time" is a fallacy; children need consistent physical and emotional presence delivered on *their* schedule, not squeezed into the off-hours of a demanding career.
- **Childhood Mental Illness Rate:** 20% (1 in 5) globally and in the U.S.; ~16.7% (1 in 6) in the UK.
- **Critical Myth Debunked:** Daycare does not foster healthy socialization for infants under three; it acts as an environmental stressor that compromises secure attachment.
- **The Core Fallacy of Time:** "Quality time" cannot compensate for a lack of quantity; true parental presence must occur on the child's timeline.
---
[02:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=136s) Erica's Mission: The Three Ps
Komisar's work centers around a framework she calls the "Three Ps": **Presence**, **Prioritization**, and **Prevention**. Grounded in over three decades of clinical practice, her mission is to educate parents, clinicians, educators, and policy-makers about the environmental conditions necessary to build resilient human brains. The primary driver of future mental health is attachment security, which can only be established when caregivers are physically and emotionally available during the two main windows of heightened neuroplasticity: ages 0 to 3 and ages 9 to 25 (adolescence).
In modern culture, priorities have shifted drastically away from children. Career ambition, material acquisition, personal pleasures, and adult self-actualization routinely take precedence. When children's developmental needs are subordinated to adult goals, their emotional health eventually breaks down—whether at age three, eight, or during high school. By addressing the origin of emotional regulation in early childhood, society could proactively prevent the widespread mental health disorders currently overwhelming families and healthcare systems.
- **The Two Critical Brain Development Windows:** Ages 0–3 (infancy/toddlerhood) and ages 9–25 (adolescence).
- **The Core Problem:** Society prioritizes career and material success while treating children as an afterthought, leading to eventual emotional breakdown.
- **The Goal of Prevention:** Fostering early resilience to protect children against future environmental stress and psychological trauma.
---
[05:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=317s) Erica's Background and the Origins of Her Work
Komisar's perspective is informed by 36 years of practice as a licensed social worker, psychoanalyst, and parent guidance expert, as well as her personal experience raising three well-adjusted children. Around 30 years ago—roughly five years into her clinical practice—she began observing a troubling trend: parents were bringing in increasingly younger children who were being diagnosed with severe psychiatric conditions and placed on prescription drugs to quiet their emotional distress.
Investigating this trend, Komisar noticed a distinct pattern: the children exhibiting the most severe psychological distress were those whose mothers were the least physically and emotionally present in their daily lives. To verify her observations, she spent two decades synthesizing research across neuroscience, epigenetics, and attachment theory (which dates back to the 1960s). This led to her 2017 book, *Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters*. Her research led her to challenge contemporary figures like Jonathan Haidt, noting that while social media exacerbated adolescent distress, the mental health decline began decades earlier when society abandoned children's core emotional needs in favor of hyper-individualism.
> "We are abandoning our children for our own desires, for our careers, for material success. And there was a great deal of misunderstanding about the irreducible emotional needs of children."
- **Clinical Experience:** 36 years practicing as a social worker and psychoanalyst.
- **Key Publication:** *Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters* (2017).
- **Scientific Foundation:** A synthesis of neuroscience, attachment theory (John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth), and epigenetics.
- **Societal Critique:** The root cause of the mental health crisis predates smartphones; it stems from a shift toward self-centeredness and individualism starting decades ago.
---
[08:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=506s) Who Are Erica's Patients?
Komisar maintains a full-time private clinical practice that includes individual psychotherapy for adults with depression and anxiety, couples counseling, and an extensive parent guidance practice. Parents reach out to her—often through her articles in publication like *The Wall Street Journal*—seeking alternatives to medicating their children. They come looking for the root causes of their child's emerging symptoms or seeking guidance on how to raise an emotionally healthy child in a culture saturated with conflicting advice.
Komisar observes that while parents naturally have an evolutionary drive to lean into their children, soothe their distress, and create a safe environment, modern culture constantly overrides these instincts. Parents are bombarded with societal noise that encourages them to distance themselves from their caregiving duties, leading many to seek professional help to reclaim their baseline parenting instincts.
- **Patient Demographics:** Individuals with anxiety/depression, couples, and parents seeking developmental guidance.
- **Primary Goal of Parent Guidance:** Identifying root causes of behavioral symptoms to avoid unnecessary psychiatric medication.
- **Public Outreach:** Writing for national publications like *The Wall Street Journal* to counter prevalent parenting misinformation.
---
[09:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=589s) How Social Changes Have Influenced Parenting
Tracing the historical shifts in family structure, Komisar notes that the separation of mothers from young children began on a macro level during the Industrial Revolution, which drew women out of home environments and into urban factories. However, the most profound cultural shift occurred during the 1960s with the convergence of the "Me Generation" self-actualization culture and second-wave feminism. While these movements brought essential legal and professional equality for women, they also introduced an unintended consequence: the systemic abandonment of infants' irreducible emotional needs.
Modern culture frequently projects false resilience onto newborns, assuming they can handle prolonged separations, six-week-old daycare drop-offs, and exposure to strangers. In reality, human infants are born neurologically and emotionally fragile. From an evolutionary standpoint, babies rely on continuous skin-to-skin contact, proximity, and body-wearing during their first year to maintain biological stability. Komisar stresses that while adults are free to choose childlessness, choosing to have children requires accepting the biological reality of what proper care demands.
> "You don't have to have children, period, to have a satisfying life. But if you're going to have children, you need to be equipped to care for them..."
- **Historical Turning Points:** The Industrial Revolution, the 1960s "Me" movement, and second-wave feminism.
- **Neurological Reality:** Human infants are born fragile, not resilient; they cannot naturally handle high-stress environments or early maternal separation.
- **Evolutionary Baseline:** Continuous skin-to-skin contact and physical proximity during the first year of life are biological necessities for secure attachment.
---
[13:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=794s) Is the Role of a Mother More Important Than That of a Father?
Addressing the prevailing cultural push toward gender neutrality—the idea that mothers and fathers are completely interchangeable caregivers—Komisar argues that mammalian biology tells a different story. While fathers are vital to child development, mothers play a distinct and irreducible role during infancy and toddlerhood due to hormonal and neurological differences.
During the first three years of life, a child's brain undergoes rapid development; by age three, **85% of the right brain**—the hemisphere responsible for social-emotional processing, empathy, and stress regulation—is fully formed. Mothers facilitate this development through "sensitive empathic nurturing." When an infant experiences emotional distress, their internal state fluctuates wildly, shifting from calm to extreme panic in seconds. Every time a mother soothes her baby using eye contact, touch, and a gentle voice, she acts as an external nervous system, regulating the baby's emotions. Over time, this constant regulation protects the developing brain from damaging levels of cortisol (the stress hormone) by releasing oxytocin (the love hormone), eventually allowing the child to internalize emotional self-regulation by age three.
- **Right-Brain Development:** 85% of right-brain architecture is established within the first 3 years of life.
- **Sensitive Empathic Nurturing:** The mother's specific mode of interaction that calms the infant's nervous system.
- **Biological Stress Buffer:** Maternal oxytocin production directly counters and neutralizes high cortisol levels in the infant.
---
[16:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1004s) Why Are Fathers Important From a Biological Level?
While mothers and fathers both produce oxytocin when interacting with their infants, the hormone acts on entirely different neural pathways in the male brain. In mothers, oxytocin triggers heightened empathy, soothing behaviors, and intense vigilance toward the baby's distress. In fathers, oxytocin activates areas of the brain that drive "playful tactile stimulation"—rough-and-tumble play, tickling, tossing the baby gently in the air, and encouraging exploration.
Far from being redundant, this fatherly style of interaction serves a complementary biological function. While the mother provides the safe haven that calms the nervous system and lowers cortisol, the father teaches the child how to handle controlled bursts of excitement and moderate stress through play. Both roles are essential for complete psychological development, but they are functionally different and non-interchangeable during early childhood.
- **Maternal Oxytocin Response:** Activates neural circuits for sensitive nurturing, emotional calming, and threat vigilance.
- **Paternal Oxytocin Response:** Activates neural circuits for playful tactile stimulation and physical interaction.
- **Developmental Balance:** Mothers provide the baseline for emotional regulation; fathers introduce controlled stimulation and environmental exploration.
[17:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1031s) The Biological Role of Fathers and Biological Differences
While mothers help regulate sadness, fear, and distress, fathers play a crucial role in roughhousing, encouraging exploration, risk-taking, and independence. Crucially, fathers teach children—especially little boys—how to regulate high-energy emotions like excitement and aggression. When fathers are absent from the home, single mothers often find little boys developing behavioral problems and heightened impulsivity because they lack this vital emotional regulation.
This dynamic is rooted in biological differences, particularly hormones. Fathers produce large quantities of vasopressin, a hormone associated with protective and competitive behaviors. Erica highlights a UK study demonstrating these hardwired biological differences: when a baby cries at night, mothers wake up immediately while fathers sleep through it; however, if there is a rustling of leaves outside the window, mothers sleep through it while fathers wake up instantly, attuned to potential predatory threats.
While men can learn to be sensitive and empathic stay-at-home nurturers, society must acknowledge these distinct biological instincts so men can consciously develop those skills. When the host runs Erica's points through an AI model during the interview, the AI confirms that her core assertions are solidly supported by evolutionary psychology and neuroscience.
* **Inconvenient Truths:** Erica emphasizes that her books and assertions are not opinion-based but strictly backed by research, describing biological differences as an "inconvenient truth" that society resists admitting.
---
[21:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1267s) The Psychological Purpose of Guilt and Parental Sacrifice
Guilt is a vital signal that the ego and superego are functioning properly by recognizing right from wrong. Feeling guilty when leaving a vulnerable baby in distress proves an individual is not "dead inside" or disconnected by past trauma. Guilt reflects an internal conflict between personal desires—such as career advancement, financial freedom, or personal leisure—and the instinctual recognition of a child's deep emotional needs.
> "If we don't feel guilt, then our species is lost... When we turn towards our internal conflicts, we tend to make better decisions for ourselves, for our children, for our families."
Societal pressure encourages parents to dismiss their guilt, but turning away from these internal conflicts leads to decisions with severe long-term consequences for children. Raising healthy children inherently demands personal sacrifice, frustration, and discomfort. Because society increasingly raises children in self-centered environments, young adults have become emotionally fragile, unable to tolerate sleeplessness or basic frustrations—leading affluent parents to rely on night nurses rather than tending to their own babies.
---
[25:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1531s) Family Diaspora and the Isolation of Modern Parenting
Historically, parents raised children embedded in extended family networks surrounded by mothers, sisters, and relatives. Modern parents live in a state of "family diaspora," deliberately choosing to move geographically far away from their families of origin to pursue careers, travel, or independence in major cities or suburbs.
* **Family Diaspora:** Moving away from extended support systems leaves parents isolated, turning dependency into a taboo word and making parental sacrifices feel overwhelming.
* **Attachment Circles:** Erica founded a non-profit called *Attachment Circles* to combat this isolation and support struggling mothers.
* **Socioeconomic Impact:** While affluent families often choose isolation for independence, lower-income single mothers are frequently forced into geographical isolation to seek work.
* **The Reality of Parental Happiness:** Addressing career-driven parents who prioritize personal fulfillment, Erica cites the old adage: *"A parent is only as happy as their least happy child."*
---
[28:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1724s) Voluntary Childlessness and the Three Attachment Disorders
The decision to remain childless often stems from a reluctance to take on the massive responsibility of another human life, causing individuals to miss out on an irreplaceable form of love. This hesitation frequently traces back to childhood trauma, such as being raised by narcissistic, resentful, or mentally ill parents, which makes emotional connection difficult in adulthood.
```
Healthy vs. Disordered Attachment (Child's Reaction Upon Parental Reunion)
├── Healthy Attachment
│ └── Joyful, happy reunion; child feels safe and prioritized.
└── Attachment Disorders (Triggered by early separation or emotional absence)
├── Avoidant Attachment
│ └── Child turns away from parent; high risk of later depression and intimacy issues.
├── Ambivalent Attachment
│ └── Child clings tightly and cannot be soothed; high risk of later anxiety.
└── Disorganized Attachment
└── Child cycles erratically through clinging, rage, and hitting; high risk of Borderline Personality Disorder.
```
When primary caregivers leave infants for long hours, travel excessively, or place them in institutional care, children develop specific defense strategies to cope with distress:
* **Avoidant Attachment Disorder:** The child turns away from the returning parent toward a caregiver or empty space, internalized as *"I can't trust my environment, so I must cope alone."* This leads to learned helplessness and adult depression.
* **Ambivalent Attachment Disorder:** The child clings frantically to the parent like *"rhesus monkeys to wire cages,"* terrified of being abandoned again, which manifests as severe anxiety later in life.
* **Disorganized Attachment Disorder:** The most severe form, where the child has no consistent coping strategy and cycles between clinging, avoidant behavior, and physical rage (hitting or slapping the parent).
Erica connects the sharp rise in disorganized attachment directly to the modern adolescent mental health crisis, including self-harm, suicide attempts, and borderline personality disorder. Expressing underlying anger at a society that lies to parents rather than educating them, she notes that these childhood attachment styles shape adult romantic relationships: avoidants struggle with intimacy and commitment, ambivalents become suffocating and clingy, and disorganized individuals exhibit extreme emotional volatility and self-harm.
[35:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2126s) Predicting Relationship Success Based on Attachment Styles
Erica Komisar breaks down how different attachment styles interact in adult romantic relationships, pointing out that avoidant individuals are often drawn to other avoidants because it creates a temporary, conflict-free dynamic where neither partner demands true commitment. However, she warns that these setups rely on pathological defenses—mechanisms designed to protect the self that ultimately fail over time. When one partner’s defenses inevitably break down and they realize a need for deeper connection, the relationship falters because the other person remains incapable of reciprocating. She notes that while "levels of water meet" and people naturally attract partners of a similar psychological makeup, it rarely results in a healthy dynamic.
When evaluating which attachment style is most equipped for long-term relationship success, Komisar emphasizes that securely attached individuals fare the best. Because secure adults internalized a deep sense of safety and trust during their first three years of life through a reliable bond with their mother, they naturally seek out reciprocal, deeply loving connections. In contrast, those with a disorganized attachment style face the steepest uphill battle, struggling immensely to form or maintain stable relationships and proving to be the most complex to treat in clinical practice.
- Avoidant-avoidant relationships often function as a shared defense mechanism, but usually break down when one partner experiences an emotional crisis.
- A secure attachment style provides the foundational belief that the world is safe and that other people can be trusted in moments of vulnerability.
- Disorganized attachment represents the most severe disruption, leading to complex relational challenges in adulthood.
---
[38:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2287s) Does Having More Children Correlate With Neglect?
Addressing a question about whether having a large family—such as ten young children—increases the risk of maternal neglect, Komisar acknowledges the physical and emotional toll this takes on a parent. She references "maternal depletion syndrome" in the developing world, where mothers face severe physical and psychological collapse from bearing too many children in rapid succession. She candidly outlines the raw reality of parenting, asserting that if raising children were a job posting, it would be billed as both the most joyful experience in life and one that requires enduring severe sleep deprivation, frustration, and continuous stress for at least five years.
The conversation touches on the fundamental principle that every major life choice involves trade-offs. The discussion highlights the stark decline in birth rates, particularly across developed nations:
```
+----------------+---------------------+---------------------+------------------+
| Region / Area | Historic Metric | Recent Metric | Time Frame |
+----------------+---------------------+---------------------+------------------+
| European Union | ~7.6 million births | 3.8 million births | Over 60 years |
| France | 830,000 births | 670,000 births | 2010 vs. 2023 |
+----------------+---------------------+---------------------+------------------+
```
While macroeconomics and rising costs account for families shrinking from ten children down to two or three, Komisar finds the shift toward total voluntary childlessness far more concerning. To her, this trend signals a cultural pivot where modern society no longer places primary value on raising children or prioritizing deep relational bonds.
- Maternal depletion syndrome illustrates the biological and emotional limits of a mother's capacity when pregnancies occur too close together.
- France's drop to 670,000 births in 2023 represents its lowest birth count since World War II.
- Komisar views voluntary childlessness not as an economic side effect, but as a deeper societal failure to value generative human connection.
---
[41:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2496s) What Is Unique About Relationships With Your Own Children?
Pushing back against the argument that adults can find complete fulfillment through partners, pets, or extended family, Komisar highlights the unmatched level of dependency involved in raising a child. Allowing another human being to be completely dependent on you forces a unique, transformative trajectory of adult emotional development. Referencing insights often echoed by thinkers like Jordan Peterson, she notes that while she wouldn’t go so far as to claim non-parents can never fully mature, raising children provides a powerful engine for personal transformation.
Clarifying her stance, Komisar notes she is not part of an aggressive "pro-natalist" movement that insists everyone must reproduce, as parenting is not suitable for every individual. However, she firmly advises that those who do choose to have children must do the internal work first. Prospective parents need to resolve their own childhood traumas, unresolved losses, and emotional wounds beforehand to avoid passing down generational patterns of mental illness and attachment disorders.
- Caring for a child requires a singular form of total dependency that cannot be replicated by relationships with pets or adult peers.
- Personal shadow work and trauma resolution are essential prerequisites for parents to prevent the intergenerational transmission of attachment issues.
---
[43:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2605s) What Contributes to Growing Infertility Among People?
The dialogue shifts to the rising global rates of biological infertility, pointing out that approximately 18% of adults worldwide (one in six) experience infertility. Specific statistics underline the scope of the issue:
- **United States:** Roughly 15% of women aged 15 to 49 experienced impaired fertility between 2015 and 2019.
- **United Kingdom:** Infertility affects 1 in 8 women and 1 in 10 men aged 16 to 74.
Komisar criticizes corporate practices where institutions, such as major law firms, offer to fund egg freezing for young female employees. She labels this a deceptive practice that encourages women to trade away their prime reproductive years under the false promise that frozen eggs guarantee a baby later in life. She notes that frozen eggs do not automatically guarantee viable embryos or successful pregnancies. Alongside delayed childbearing and environmental toxins, she identifies modern stress as a massive, overlooked driver of infertility in both men and women.
- Egg freezing offers a false sense of security, as it does not guarantee successful fertilization or full-term pregnancy later in life.
- Modern workplace stress significantly impairs reproductive physiology for both men and women.
---
[45:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2759s) How Did Erica Manage to Balance Work and Motherhood?
Komisar dismantles the modern myth that women can "have it all at the exact same time"—maintaining a high-powered, full-time career with extensive travel while simultaneously providing the intensive care required to raise emotionally healthy children. She reassures listeners that life is long, and because modern life expectancy stretches well into an individual's 80s, 90s, or beyond, parents have decades to build impressive careers after their children grow up. In contrast, the window to form a child's foundational emotional security is brief and non-negotiable.
Sharing her personal choices, Komisar describes how she ran a busy practice seeing clients for 40 hours a week in her 20s. When she married and had her three children in her 30s, she and her husband made a deliberate choice to scale back materially to prioritize family life:
- She took **6 months of complete maternity leave** with each child.
- Upon returning to work, she limited her schedule to just **1.5 hours a day, 5 days a week**, earning just enough to pay for a mother's helper.
- The family deliberately forewent luxury items, second homes, and lavish vacations, choosing financial simplicity to maximize maternal presence.
- She notes that many women successfully launch major secondary careers in their 40s once their children reach school age.
---
[49:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2942s) Should Fathers Be the Stay-at-Home Parent?
Addressing whether a father can step in as the primary stay-at-home parent with identical psychological outcomes, Komisar highlights biological and hormonal realities. Pointing out that men cannot breastfeed, she explains how pregnancy, birth, and lactation physically bind a mother to her infant, creating a distinct physiological response to an infant's needs. While a father's presence is vital for giving the mother rest and bonding with the infant, the infant's core biological requirement during early development is establishing attachment security with the primary attachment figure, who is typically the mother.
Fathers take on a distinct, crucial role as children become mobile around 18 months to 2 years of age. Through rough-and-tumble play and tactile stimulation, fathers become exciting figures who help children break away from maternal dependence and explore the world safely. Furthermore, when subsequent siblings arrive, fathers play an essential role in engaging the older children, easing their transition and giving the mother space to bond with the newborn.
- The biological connection formed through pregnancy and breastfeeding gives mothers a distinct role in early infant attachment.
- Fathers become essential agents of separation and exploration around 18 to 24 months, helping toddlers build independence.
- A father's active engagement with older siblings prevents feelings of displacement when a new baby arrives.
---
[51:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3092s) Harlow's Study on Rhesus Monkeys
The discussion turns to classic psychological research on attachment, specifically Harry Harlow's famous experiments with rhesus monkeys. Komisar recaps the study's findings regarding the primary need for "contact comfort" over mere sustenance:
- **Nurturing Biological Mothers:** Monkeys raised by their natural mothers developed healthy emotional regulation and secure social behaviors.
- **Cloth-Covered Wire Mothers:** Monkeys provided with a surrogate mother made of wire but covered in cloth or fur clung to the figure out of a desperate need for touch. They grew up highly anxious and neurotic, displaying patterns similar to ambivalent attachment.
- **Bare Wire / Isolated Group:** Monkeys given no soft surrogate or motherly contact lost their psychological stability entirely, demonstrating severe emotional collapse.
Komisar also highlights more recent epigenetic research by Michael Meaney on maternal care in animals. Meaney's work on "licking and grooming"—the animal equivalent of human hugging, holding, and skin-to-skin contact—demonstrated that offspring receiving high levels of tactile care developed lower stress responses and higher emotional resilience. Crucially, these nurtured animals passed this nurturing behavior down to the next generation, proving that physical affection alters biological stress responses across generations.
- Harlow's experiments proved that soft physical contact is a fundamental psychological need, independent of feeding.
- Michael Meaney's research shows that tactile nurturing directly programs a child's stress-response system for greater resilience.
- Maternal touch and skin-to-skin contact create positive generational effects, passing emotional stability down to future offspring.
[53:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3207s) The Epigenetics of Nurture and the Dilemma of Paid Leave
The conversation turns back to the fundamental need for "licking and grooming"—the early nurturing behaviors that not only pass on stress resilience to the next generation, but also pass down the very desire to have and nurture children. Steven asks Erica to address her own privilege when advocating for staying home, pointing out that many parents face extreme economic hardship, such as single mothers living in public housing in Harlem. Surprisingly, Erica notes that very poor mothers in Harlem often do stay home with their babies. This prompts a fierce critique of American policy: Erica declares that "America sucks" in this regard, standing out alongside Papua New Guinea as one of the only countries without mandated paid parental leave. She criticizes a national culture that prioritizes GDP and corporate bottom lines over the well-being of children and family stability.
Erica argues that a civilized society should offer at least one year of fully paid leave, followed by two years of subsidized or part-time work arrangements, contrasting the U.S. with countries like Hungary, Estonia, or Sweden (though she notes Sweden forces mothers back into full-time work after 14 months, leading to institutional daycare issues). Realizing that America is unlikely to adopt a three-year entitlement, she presents a creative, pragmatic compromise: allowing parents to borrow against their future Social Security benefits to finance a year at home, paying it back by working a year or two longer before retirement. She sharply divides the political landscape, criticizing the political left for wanting short 3-to-6-month leaves before funneling infants into institutional care, and the right for extolling family values without wanting to spend tax dollars on entitlements.
- **Global Maternity Leave Comparisons**: Erica highlights countries like Hungary and Estonia (which offer up to 3 years of leave) and Sweden (14 months), highlighting how far behind the U.S. lags.
- **Social Security Proposal**: A proposed compromise where parents can draw early from their retirement benefits to fund infant care, extending their working lifespan at the end of their career.
- **Political Gridlock**: Left-leaning policies often push early return to work and institutional daycare, while right-leaning policies resist funding public family entitlements.
---
[57:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3470s) Measuring Attachment Success and the Pitfalls of "Superstar" Parenting
When Steven asks how science proves that extended paid leave leads to better societal outcomes, Erica points directly to decades of longitudinal attachment research. These studies show that 80% of infants who are insecurely attached at 12 months remain insecurely attached 20 years later, suffering higher rates of mental health disorders as adults. Providing paid leave ensures that parents can spend critical time establishing secure attachment, directly reducing the future burden on the healthcare system.
Steven then challenges this ideal by bringing up famous, hyper-intense parents who raised world-class high achievers—citing Richard Williams (father of Venus and Serena), Joe Jackson (father of Michael Jackson), Earl Woods (father of Tiger Woods), and Mathew Knowles (father of Beyoncé). He asks whether intense pressure or early adversity might actually be necessary to create extraordinary success. Erica strongly pushes back against this "school of thought," calling it professional malpractice to recommend it. She explains that forcing a child into a mold to satisfy a parent's own narcissistic needs prevents them from developing an authentic self. While these children may achieve immense professional stardom, they frequently suffer from deep emotional trauma, broken personal lives, or repeat the narcissistic cycle with their own children.
- **Longitudinal Attachment Data**: Research indicates an **80% continuity** of insecure attachment from infancy (12 months) into adulthood, strongly correlating with adult psychiatric conditions.
- **Narcissistic Projection**: Erica warns against treating children as "mini-me" projects or architecting their lives, advocating instead that parents support passion driven entirely by the child.
---
[01:02:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3779s) The ADHD Epidemic: Hypervigilance and the Overstimulated Amygdala
Moving into one of the most pressing childhood health crises, Steven cites staggering statistics on the rise of ADHD. In the UK, diagnoses increased roughly 20-fold between 2000 and 2018, with prescriptions for young adult men spiking nearly 50-fold. In the U.S., 15.5 million adults have been diagnosed, and 1 in 9 children (over 10%) currently hold an ADHD diagnosis. Erica explains that this explosive surge was a major motivation for writing her book *Being There*. She argues that ADHD is largely not an inherent neurodevelopmental "disorder," but rather a chronic, hypervigilant stress response.
Erica breaks down the neurobiology of early stress: human babies are born with a primitive stress-regulating center in the brain called the amygdala. In natural human development, the amygdala is meant to remain relatively offline for the first 1 to 3 years, kept quiet by the physical presence and soothing of the mother. When modern parenting practices—such as premature daycare placement, sleep training, and leaving infants to "cry it out"—expose babies to unmanageable stress, the amygdala is forced into precocious activation. It grows rapidly under heavy floods of cortisol, but because it is overtaxed too early, it eventually burns out and ceases to function properly over a lifetime.
- **ADHD Statistics**: In the UK, diagnoses rose **20-fold** from 2000 to 2018; in the U.S., **10.5%** of children currently have an active ADHD diagnosis.
- **The Amygdala and Cortisol**: Early exposure to stress triggers premature amygdala growth, which leads to early burnout and permanent dysfunction in emotional regulation.
- **Flight-or-Fight Manifestation**: In school-aged children, "fight" presents as physical aggression and biting, while "flight" manifests as distraction and the inability to focus.
---
[01:08:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4086s) Mismanaged Stress and the Problem with Medicating Children
Continuing her critique, Erica outlines the brain's delicate balance between its stress "on switch" (the amygdala) and its "off switch" (the hippocampus). The human stress response was evolutionarily designed for acute, short-term threats—like fleeing a saber-toothed tiger—not chronic, daily overstimulation. Because modern infants are repeatedly placed in high-stress environments, their amygdala becomes massively enlarged while the hippocampus remains underdeveloped. The result is a neurological system stuck on "gas with no brakes." If a child remains in a hypervigilant state of stress for too long, they eventually collapse into a hypovigilant state, which manifests as clinical depression.
Erica vehemently argues that treating ADHD purely through medication is "medical malpractice." Pharmaceutical stimulants silence the child's underlying distress and relieve outward symptoms without ever addressing the root cause. Rather than labeling children with a permanent disorder and drugging them into compliance, clinicians and parents ought to investigate the specific psychosocial stressors—whether family instability, premature separation, environmental pressures, or undetected learning differences—that are throwing the child's nervous system into continuous fight-or-flight mode.
- **Neurological Imbalance**: Chronic early stress results in an overdeveloped **amygdala** (the "on switch") and an underdeveloped **hippocampus** (the "off switch").
- **Hypervigilance to Hypovigilance**: Prolonged high-stress hypervigilance eventually deteriorates into hypovigilant states, directly driving youth depression.
- **Medical Critique**: Erica calls the immediate reliance on medication a failure to ask the right questions about a child's underlying emotional and environmental environment.
[01:10:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4233s) Parent Guidance over Medication: The Truth About ADHD and Stress
Addressing the inconvenient truth behind child mental health, Erica Komisar asserts that when young children receive an ADHD diagnosis, parents are fundamentally looking at a reflection of the child's environment. While older school-aged children may encounter external stressors like bullying or social friction, primary caregivers represent the entirety of a toddler's ecosystem. Komisar strongly advises against rushing a child to a psychiatrist for immediate pharmaceutical intervention. Instead, both parents should seek parent guidance therapy to uncover the specific psychosocial stressors driving their child's nervous system into fight-or-flight mode.
Everyday domestic dynamics and life transitions can act as major catalysts for hypervigilance. These stressors include:
- Early entry into daycare centers, which activates the amygdala and triggers the child's stress-regulating systems prematurely.
- Parental divorce or high-conflict spousal arguments in the home.
- Sibling rivalry or the arrival of a new baby when handled without proper parental sensitivity to the firstborn's emotional adjustment.
- Household relocations, parental physical or mental illness, and substance abuse or addiction within the immediate family.
- The grief and shock of losing a extended family member, such as a grandparent, aunt, or uncle.
Komisar warns that medicating a child without addressing root environmental causes is merely "putting your finger in a dike" — a temporary containment strategy for an underlying flood of distress that will eventually burst.
---
[01:13:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4434s) Epigenetics and the "Sensitivity Gene"
Responding to twin studies suggesting that ADHD carries a **74% to 80%** heritability rate, Komisar clarifies the difference between direct genetic causation and epigenetic expression. She maintains that conditions like anxiety, depression, and ADHD lack direct genetic precursors — unlike schizophrenia or bipolar disorder. Instead, what children inherit is a specific short allele on the serotonin receptor gene, frequently described as the **sensitivity gene**. Because serotonin regulates mood, having this short allele makes an individual far more sensitive to emotional and environmental stress, predisposing them to psychological distress if triggered.
The outcome of this genetic trait depends almost entirely on the early caregiving environment. When infants born with the sensitivity gene receive emotionally and physically present, attachment-secure care during their first year, epigenetic mechanisms **neutralize** the gene's expression. Conversely, if a sensitive child experiences neglect, early separation, or unbuffered adversity, the gene's expression is exacerbated, manifesting as severe anxiety or ADHD.
- **fMRI Misconceptions:** While functional MRI scans show distinct blood flow and electrical activity in brains diagnosed with ADHD, Komisar argues this reflects heightened stress sensitivity rather than an unchangeable brain defect.
- **Traits of a Sensitive Child:** Sensitive infants cry more frequently, are harder to soothe, exhibit heightened clinginess, resist separation or independent sleep, and show pronounced sensory reactivity to sound, smell, and tactile textures (like itchy clothing).
---
[01:19:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4755s) The Perils of Stimulants and the True Definitions of Anxiety
When adults receive an ADHD diagnosis later in life, stimulant medications can offer temporary functional improvements, but Komisar notes significant physiological and psychological trade-offs. Stimulants can trigger severe panic attacks, growth stunt issues in developing adolescents, depression, and heightened baseline anxiety. Modern society frequently treats these drugs as performance enhancers to help individuals keep pace with extreme academic, corporate, and social demands.
Komisar views ADHD as a broad catch-all category for unaddressed, deep-seated anxiety. Rather than relying on quick fixes like pharmaceuticals or superficial behavioral modifications, resolving these states requires intensive relational therapy to process early losses and micro-traumas. She establishes clear psychological definitions for internal distress:
- **Depression:** A chronic preoccupation with *past* losses.
- **Anxiety:** A chronic preoccupation with *future* losses that may never occur.
Both conditions center on loss. Modern culture exacerbates this distress by shifting focus away from fundamental human needs — strong relationships, love, physical health, and family — toward material wealth, status, career achievement, and public fame. She cites discouraging surveys where teenagers overwhelmingly ranked "becoming famous" as their top life goal.
---
[01:23:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5006s) Trauma Metrics (ACEs) and Handling Tantrums Real-Time
Statistical data strongly reinforces the link between childhood environmental adversity and ADHD diagnoses. Research evaluating Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) demonstrates a direct correlation between stress load and diagnostic outcomes:
- Children with an ACE score of **4 or higher** have nearly a **400% (4x) higher probability** of a parent-reported ADHD diagnosis compared to those with zero ACEs.
- **Socioeconomic Hardship:** Increases ADHD probability by **40%**.
- **Parental Divorce:** Increases ADHD probability by **35%**.
- **Familial Mental Illness:** Increases ADHD probability by **55% to 60%**.
- **Neighborhood Violence:** Increases ADHD probability by nearly **50%**.
- **Parental Incarceration:** Increases ADHD probability by **40%**.
Turning to practical parenting dilemmas, host Steven Bartlett lightheartedly asks how to respond when a child throws a screaming tantrum in a public place like a supermarket — joking about keeping Komisar on speed dial. Komisar cautions against yelling or abandoning the child. A healthy parent maintains emotional regulation, keeping their own internal state balanced like "sailing in the Caribbean" through a storm.
Before attempting discipline, a caregiver must lead with empathy and reflection. Acknowledging a child's emotions — mirroring their sadness, naming their anger, or sharing their joy — signals to the child that they are seen, valued, and understood as a separate person. Only after emotional validation occurs can a parent gently set firm boundaries.
<ElicitationsGroup message="To explore these parenting dynamics further:">
<Elicitation label="Explore strategies for managing emotional regulation in high-stress parenting" query="What are practical emotional regulation strategies for parents dealing with high-stress situations like child tantrums?"/>
<Elicitation label="Analyze the impact of Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) on development" query="Explain how Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) alter biological stress responses and child development."/>
</ElicitationsGroup>
Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of the provided transcript segment:
### [01:27:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5224s) Handling Childhood Tantrums: The "Broken Record" Technique
Erica Komisar outlines a practical strategy for dealing with a screaming child demanding something off-limits, like sweets before dinner. She advises against immediately jumping to a cold, flat "no," which leaves even adults feeling unsatisfied and unheard. Instead, parents should employ the "broken record" technique—a continuous loop of empathizing first and then reinforcing the structure. Komisar demonstrates the phrasing: *"I can see that you really want that packet of sweets. I can see how hard it is... but you know you can't have it before dinner. You know that's the rule."*
When the child inevitably continues to cry, the parent simply repeats the empathetic validation combined with the boundary: *"I can see it's really hard for you, but you still can't have the sweets."* Steven Bartlett points out that this aligns directly with what relationship experts advise for romantic partners: making someone feel genuinely heard and understood diffuses arguments and stops defensive patterns. Komisar agrees, stressing that acknowledging feelings before holding a firm line is essential for a child's emotional stability.
### [01:28:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5299s) "Big T" Trauma vs. "Little T" Relational Trauma
When Bartlett jokingly asks if he might be a traumatized child, Komisar uses the moment to break down the overuse and misunderstanding of the word "trauma." She distinguishes between two distinct types:
* **"Big T" Trauma:** Concrete, overt, and life-altering events such as severe car crashes resulting in physical disability, parental death, severe physical abuse from an alcoholic parent, or sexual assault.
* **"Little T" Trauma:** Nuanced, relational, and often subtle experiences that require a fine-tooth comb to uncover. This includes subtle emotional neglect, having a parent who loves you but never truly listens or understands you, growing up with self-centered or narcissistic parents, or feeling chronically isolated.
Komisar explains that many clients walk into her therapy practice perplexed, saying they had two parents who stayed together and provided immense material wealth, yet they still struggle with deep mental health issues. She notes that society fails to offer nuance, overlooking how relational "little T" traumas—such as a depressed mother who sleeps in leaving a child to feed themselves, being a lonely latchkey kid, or experiencing early attachment disruption—are the root drivers of depression, anxiety, and even ADHD. Despite public health frameworks like the ACES (Adverse Childhood Experiences) study focusing heavily on overt "big T" traumas like substance abuse, the majority of people seeking therapy are actually suffering from unacknowledged "little T" relational and attachment trauma.
### [01:31:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5509s) The Hidden Dangers of Daycare and Early Attachment
Addressing daycare directly, Komisar expresses strong opposition to placing children in group daycare during their first three years of life. She cites research showing that daycare environments cause a sustained rise in children's salivary cortisol levels, forcing developing brains into prolonged, unnatural stress states. Studies link early daycare exposure to increased aggression, elevated anxiety, behavioral problems in elementary school, and a higher risk of attachment disorders. Separating vulnerable infants from their primary attachment figure to leave them with strangers for hours forces them to construct "pathological defenses."
While emphasizing that keeping a child with their primary attachment figure for the first three years is ideal (akin to "breast is best"), Komisar acknowledges that parents sometimes must use childcare. She outlines the hierarchy of alternative arrangements, insisting that the ultimate goal is ensuring a sensitive, empathic nurturer who reliably meets the infant's emotional distress.
### [01:33:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5584s) Evolutionary Instincts and Training Fathers as Caregivers
Komisar clarifies that while a father *can* serve as the primary attachment figure, it rarely comes naturally to men due to evolutionary biology. She uses an animal metaphor to illustrate the functional difference in paternal versus maternal instincts: a daddy impala on the African plains runs behind a newborn calf, aggressively driving it forward so it doesn't become "lunch for that lion," whereas a mother impala licks and comforts the fallen baby. A father's primal wiring is centered around "protective aggression," not gentle emotional soothing.
Therefore, if a father stays home as the primary caregiver, he must explicitly be taught how to "mother":
* Engaging in direct skin-to-skin contact and emotional mirroring when the baby cries.
* Soothing emotional distress rather than attempting to teach "resilience" or using distraction.
* Avoiding "discrepant emotions" (e.g., dismissing distress with a flippant *"Oh, you're okay, you'll be fine"*).
She extends this framework to same-sex couples, noting that when treating two gay men or two lesbian women, she asks them directly which partner will fulfill which core role. To avoid deeply confusing the child, one partner must embody the sensitive, empathic mother figure, while the other takes on the father figure's role of playful, tactile stimulation, tickling, roughhousing, and encouraging risk-taking.
- Komisar rejects the idea that a single parent can split both roles 50/50, calling it "very confusing to children."
- A "mother figure" does not strictly have to be the biological mother; it can be a father trained in maternal nurture, a grandmother, or a dedicated nanny, provided they are present and consistent.
### [01:36:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5804s) Financial Reality, Marital Competition, and the "Co-CEO" Trap
Bartlett highlights dynamic economic shifts by referencing a graph showing that while only 10% of mothers were primary breadwinners in 1960, nearly 50% hold that role today. He asks how women in these positions can simply walk away from their jobs. Komisar shares that many female clients confess they promised their husbands they would remain the primary earner, but after giving birth, they experience a profound biological transformation and desperately wish to stay home or downscale to part-time work, leading to severe marital friction.
She urges young couples to stop making rigid promises that nothing will change after having a baby. Instead, they should prepare for everything to transform, strategize financial downscaling in advance, and plan for potential lifestyle shifts. Komisar argues that modern marital distress and rising divorce rates are heavily fueled by couples competing with one another—competing over who earns more money or who handles child-rearing. Comparing a marriage to a business, she asserts that "co-CEOs" always fail; a functional company requires distinct roles (CEO, CFO, COO) working as a team.
- "Parenting is a team sport, not a competitive sport."
- Komisar advises couples: *"Save your competition for the tennis court, for the basketball court, for running in the park, but don't compete over child-rearing."*
### [01:41:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6075s) High-Octane Careers and the Myth of "Quality vs. Quantity" Time
Addressing career-driven mothers, Komisar delivers what she terms another "inconvenient truth": certain high-demand careers are simply incompatible with being a present, effective parent, regardless of whether you are a mother or a father. A corporate CEO parent who constantly travels, misses birthdays, soccer games, and piano recitals cannot expect to maintain a healthy emotional bond with their child.
She forcefully dismantles the concept of "quality time over quantity time," labeling it a "narcissistic fantasy." Children do not function like "a vase on the counter," sitting idly until a busy parent returns home at night ready to administer a concentrated burst of presence. Children require support on *their* schedule throughout the day, making quantity of time an indispensable component of actual quality care.
[01:43:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6200s) Designing a Life and Career Around Children
Erica Komisar stresses that emotional presence is impossible without physical presence. To serve as a primary attachment figure, parents need to choose flexible careers that adjust around the children's needs, rather than making children adapt to a rigid work schedule. She highlights service professions—such as physical therapy, psychotherapy, speech therapy, consulting, and various entrepreneurial ventures—where individuals can dictate their own hours. When Steven Bartlett questions whether a podcaster, investor, or entrepreneur can truly pull this off, Erica pushes back, insisting that success in these roles comes down to setting personal boundaries. She brings up the painter Claude Monet as an example of someone who achieved great renown in his lifetime while maintaining a disciplined, modest routine: painting early in the morning to catch the light, finishing by 3:00 or 4:00 p.m., and spending the evening eating dinner with his family.
Steven counters from the perspective of someone living in extreme financial distress, sharing his own past as an 18-year-old university dropout: broke, shoplifting food, carrying court judgment debt, and taking night shifts at call centers just to cover rent without any family nearby for support. He argues that under such emergency conditions, people cannot simply "architect" their lives. Erica acknowledges the validity of using birth control to avoid having a baby at 18, but emphasizes that even under tight financial constraints, primary caregivers must prioritize flexibility. She cites an interview from her book with a low-income single mother of three who worked as a nanny; the mother set strict limits by ending her workday at 5:00 p.m. and dedicating every evening and weekend strictly to her children instead of socializing. Furthermore, that mother avoided institutional daycare entirely by paying a close neighbor—who became like an "auntie"—to provide consistent, loving care.
- Primary attachment requires predictable physical availability; "you can't be emotionally present if you're not physically there enough of the time."
- Monet maintained a modest daily routine, wrapping up work by mid-afternoon to spend evenings with his family.
- Hierarchy of childcare: Primary attachment figure is best, followed by kinship/extended family bonds, trusted close community members, and lastly institutional care.
---
[01:47:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6469s) The Daycare Myth and Emotional Refueling
Addressing the common belief that toddlers need daycare for early socialization, Erica firmly dismisses it as a myth. Children under the age of three do not actually play interactively with peers; instead, they engage in "parallel play" alongside others. What they require at this stage is one-on-one emotional security and connection from a primary attachment figure. Real interactive play and socialization only begin around age three with preschool. While playdates before age three can be fine, they must occur within the eye gaze or earshot of the primary caregiver so the toddler can practice *rapprochement*—a process of emotional refueling.
Erica describes the mechanism of rapprochement: as young children gain a sense of safety from their caregiver, they gradually gain the courage to explore and "toddle off." However, they periodically pause, look back to confirm their parent is still watching, or run back briefly for a quick hug before resuming their play. This continuous checking-in relies on the parent serving as an anchor of safety. Through this process, children build genuine courage and the capacity to explore the world while feeling fundamentally secure.
- Children do not require peer-group socialization prior to age 3 because their social behavior is limited to parallel play.
- Rapprochement (emotional refueling) allows toddlers to venture out, glance back or return for reassurance, and build real independence.
- Playgroups for toddlers under three are beneficial only when a primary attachment figure remains physically visible and accessible.
This brief intermission contains promotional segments from the show's sponsors, focusing on personalized health and non-distractive technology.
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---
[01:51:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6683s) Critical Windows of Brain Development: 0 to 3 and Adolescence
```
0–3 Years Old 3–9 Years Old 9–25 Years Old (Adolescence)
[Neurogenesis Window] [Steady Growth] [Pruning Window]
85% Right-Brain Cell Growth Gradual Brain Tissue Trimming Unused Synapses
Parent = Entire Environment Expansion Parent = Key Part of Environment
```
Responding to Steven's questions about neuroplasticity and whether early childhood stress is reversible, Erica explains that the human brain experiences distinct critical windows of socio-emotional development. The first window, from birth to age three, is dominated by rapid neurogenesis—cell growth—during which 85% of the right brain develops. A parent's loving presence acts as a buffer against stress and directly impacts the structural architecture of the growing brain. Erica often confronts people at parties who claim babies only "sleep and poop" and do not need active parenting until they walk and talk; she corrects them, explaining that early snuggling, nursing, eye contact, and singing spark millions of neural connections every day.
> "By 3 years of age, you're growing a garden... This is an abundant garden of brain tissue... After 3 years old, they go into childhood... from 3 to 9, it's still growing, but it's not growing at the same pace... Now, adolescence comes, 9 to 25. And now you have to prune back the garden because if you don't prune back the cells you don't need, it's as damaging to the brain as if you didn't grow them to begin with."
Erica contrasts the two major development phases:
* **Ages 0 to 3:** The primary caregiver is the child's entire environment. The focus is building a dense, flourishing "garden" of brain connections.
* **Ages 9 to 25 (Adolescence):** The environment prunes away unused neural pathways. While the parent remains crucial, external influences like peers, school, and social media enter the picture. Fortifying the brain during the first three years builds the emotional resilience needed to survive the social and academic challenges of teenage life.
- 85% of right-brain social-emotional architecture is established by age three through intense cell creation (neurogenesis).
- Parent-child interactions like eye contact, physical touch, and singing trigger millions of synaptic connections daily.
- Neural pruning during adolescence (ages 9–25) trims back unused brain cells; unpruned neural networks can be as damaging as undergrown ones.
---
[01:55:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6919s) Repairing Damage in Adolescence and Adulthood
For parents who missed the crucial 0-to-3 window, Erica points to her book *Chicken Little, The Sky Isn't Falling: Raising Resilient Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety* (originally titled *Second Chances*). Repairing past neglect during adolescence requires a parent to adapt to a teenager's rhythms rather than forcing interactions on their own terms. Teenagers routinely retreat behind closed doors to keep their defenses up; knocking and demanding to talk when returning from a long workday usually fails. Instead, parents must be physically present when the teenager opens the door voluntarily—whether stepping out for a snack or a quick break—and stay continuously "open for business" to capture those fleeting moments of connection.
> "Children need you when they need you, not when you're personally available."
```
REPAIRING CHILDHOOD TRAUMA
│
┌───────────────────────┴───────────────────────┐
▼ ▼
Adolescent Repair (Parents) Adult Repair (Self)
• Adapt to the teenager's schedule • Psychodynamic / Analytic therapy
• Be available when "the door opens" • Long-term, consistent relationship
• Cease original damaging behaviors • Relational emotional experience
```
When Steven asks if a 30-year-old can heal from early childhood trauma experienced between ages 0 and 10, Erica asserts: "it takes a relationship to cause the trauma and it takes another relationship to repair it." She advocates for long-term psychodynamic or psychoanalytic therapy over quick fixes. The true healing mechanism is not a brilliant insight spoken by the clinician, but rather the steady, reliable relationship built over time. Having a therapist consistently see a patient through life's highs and lows, mirroring their emotions without judgment, creates a transformative emotional experience that rewires the brain.
- True relational repair requires stopping the original harmful behavior; confession alone without lifestyle change is insufficient.
- Teenagers communicate on their own schedule; parents must be present during spontaneous moments rather than forcing structured time.
- Psychodynamic psychotherapy heals adult trauma through a stable, long-term therapeutic bond rather than quick advice or isolated insights.
Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of Part 8 of the interview with child attachment expert Erica Komisar on *The Diary Of A CEO*.
---
[01:59:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7170s) The Role of Therapy in Healing Trauma and Preserving Relationships
Erica Komisar begins by reflecting on how true emotional healing requires relationships, though relying exclusively on loved ones can end up corrupting those bonds. When individuals use partners or close friends as pseudo-therapists to process internal losses and unresolved childhood trauma, they risk overburdening those relationships. Therapy serves as a crucial "safe container" where painful experiences can be left and worked through, preserving personal relationships from being overwhelmed by past emotional baggage.
However, therapy is not a one-size-fits-all solution, as it requires a willingness to drop defenses, build trust, and openly express vulnerable feelings. For individuals who find it difficult to talk openly about their emotions, structured modalities like Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT) or Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT) can offer alternative pathways forward.
- Therapy acts as a trusted, safe container to process trauma without straining friendships or romantic partnerships.
- Modalities like CBT and DBT provide accessible options for those who struggle with verbalizing deep emotional states.
---
[02:01:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7268s) Defense Mechanisms and Silent Misconceptions About Therapy
Addressing why so many adults remain in deep denial about how their childhood shaped their current struggles, Komisar explains that defense mechanisms play a vital, protective role in human psychology. As a psychoanalyst, her goal is never to strip away a patient's defenses without offering healthier replacements—comparing it to not removing a foot from a landmine unless a heavy rock is available to hold it down. A common misconception about therapy is that it leaves patients defenseless, whereas effective therapy simply exchanges unhealthy coping mechanisms for healthier ones.
Komisar illustrates this with an example of a child using constant anxiety or complaining to gain parental attention. While this defense serves an immediate purpose, over time it wears on parents, causing them to pull away and rendering the strategy counterproductive. The healthier replacement is teaching the child to express their underlying emotional needs directly—such as voicing that they feel neglected or that parents are overly distracted by phones and iPads.
Additionally, Komisar draws a distinction between healthy reflection and defensive resistance. Adults who display extreme defensiveness—aggressively denying any possibility of childhood trauma—are often protecting a deeply sensitive, unhealed wound. Healthy psychological integration involves being able to reflect on both the good and bad aspects of one's upbringing, whereas the total inability to discuss childhood sadness or happiness indicates unresolved trauma.
- Defense mechanisms should only be dismantled when replaced with healthier strategies.
- Unhealthy anxiety in children can be a learned defense to seek attention from distracted parents.
- Extreme defensiveness or an inability to talk about childhood reveals unaddressed emotional pain.
---
[02:04:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7498s) Oedipal Development and the Impact of Absent or Abusive Fathers
Turning to the widespread cultural concept of "daddy issues," Komisar explains its grounding in psychoanalytic theory, specifically Oedipal development between the ages of 3 and 6. During this stage of relational and sexual development, young boys romantically idealize their mothers and express jealousy toward their fathers, while young girls seek to be "daddy's little princess" and displace their mothers. Fathers must feel secure enough not to react negatively when their young sons tell them to "get lost," just as mothers must avoid rejecting their young daughters during this phase.
Because an individual's initial experience of romantic idealization occurs with the parent of the opposite sex, the absence or emotional detachment of a father leaves a profound relational void in a young girl's development. Growing up without that admiration and love can lead women to spend their adult lives desperately searching for an Oedipal connection, often settling for mere "scraps or crumbs" of affection. If a father was negligent or abandoned the family, the daughter may develop a deep-seated inability to trust relationships.
In cases where a father was abusive, a child may engage in "neurotic repetition" as an adult, continually seeking out abusive romantic partners because that toxic dynamic was defined as "love" during childhood. Komisar shares her early social work experience in foster care, noting how physically abused and neglected children still desperately yearned to remain with their parents because children inherently equate their primary upbringing with love, healthy or not.
- Oedipal development typically occurs between ages 3 and 6, marking the child's first relational model with the opposite-sex parent.
- Emotionally absent or negligent fathers leave a void that can cause adult women to accept unhealthy crumbs of affection.
- Children perceive whatever dynamic they receive from parents as "love," leading some adults to neurotically repeat abusive cycles.
---
[02:08:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7738s) The Crisis of Purpose in Young Men and the Shift in Gender Roles
Steven Bartlett introduces alarming statistics regarding young men: nearly 31% of men aged 18 to 24 reported no sexual activity over the past year—a figure that has almost doubled in 18 years. Furthermore, men account for nearly 80% of all suicides in the United States, with peak rates among 45-to-64-year-olds, while suicide remains a leading cause of death globally among young men. A growing number of men in the UK report feeling hopeless, worthless, and lacking a clear purpose.
Komisar argues that societal shifts have stripped men of their traditional biological purpose: protecting, providing for, and feeding their families. She emphasizes that while elevating women is positive, modern cultural movements have at times felt "vengeful" toward men, leading to their denigration and marginalization. With women now comprising over 60% of university and graduate school populations, an imbalance has formed. Because studies indicate men generally marry at or below their educational level while women tend to marry at or above theirs, the educational and professional decline of men drastically impacts relationship dynamics and leaves young adult men feeling diminished and discouraged.
- **31%** of young men aged 18–24 report no sexual activity in the past year, nearly doubling over 18 years.
- Men account for nearly **80%** of all suicides in the U.S.
- Over **60%** of university and graduate school students are now women, reshaping traditional marriage pool dynamics.
- Stripping men of their evolutionary role as providers and protectors has left many feeling purposeless and discouraged.
---
[02:12:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7926s) Hormonal Shifts, Stay-at-Home Fathers, and Impact on Intimacy
Komisar delves into the biological conflict that arises when men take on primary nurturing roles at home. In mammalian biology, there is an inverse relationship between oxytocin (the bonding hormone) and testosterone. When primary caregiving elevates oxytocin levels, testosterone drops. From an evolutionary perspective, intense nurturing drives suppress mating instincts to keep the parent focused on caring for offspring rather than reproducing again immediately.
When men act as primary stay-at-home caregivers, their testosterone drops, which can lead to clinical depression, loss of purpose, and sexual dysfunction. Conversely, studies show that when women enter high-stress, competitive corporate environments, their testosterone levels increase. Rapid societal shifts over the last century have outpaced human evolution, creating friction between modern lifestyle choices and deep-seated biological instincts.
This hormonal shift significantly impacts couples' sex lives, contributing to increased reliance on performance aids like Viagra, hormone patches, and supplements. Komisar shares anecdotal evidence from her private practice, describing a male client whose wife worked in high-pressure finance while he stayed home; his lowered libido and loss of attraction within the marriage ultimately led him to seek affairs outside the relationship.
- Oxytocin and testosterone exist in an inverse relationship; high oxytocin from nurturing lowers testosterone in men.
- Decreased testosterone in stay-at-home fathers is linked to higher rates of depression and lower sex drive.
- Human evolutionary physiology changes over thousands of years and cannot immediately adapt to century-fast societal role reversals.
---
<ElicitationsGroup message="To explore the topics discussed in this segment further:">
<Elicitation label="Examine how attachment theory explains relationship patterns" query="Explain how attachment styles formed in childhood manifest in adult romantic relationships according to Erica Komisar."/>
<Elicitation label="Summarize the evolutionary arguments around parental roles" query="What are Erica Komisar's biological and evolutionary arguments regarding mothering versus fathering in early childhood?"/>
</ElicitationsGroup>
[02:16:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8164s) Educating Boys vs. Girls and the Misdiagnosis of ADHD
Erica Komisar addresses how modern social structures and educational systems systematically disadvantage young boys. From an early age, schools favor behaviors typically natural to girls—such as sitting still, regulating emotions quietly, and avoiding physical aggression or impulsivity. Little boys naturally experience a major surge in testosterone between ages 3 and 6, giving them high physical energy and a desperate need to run, jump, and play outside. Forcing them into structured classroom settings like circle time suppresses these natural impulses, causing them to be marginalized and labeled with behavioral problems or ADHD simply for acting like young boys.
Komisar argues that the traditional educational system fails to cater to boys' shorter attention spans and high physical needs. Effective boys' schools operate by "running the boys like running the dogs in the park"—alternating 30 to 45 minutes of focused instruction with multiple recess periods throughout the day. In contrast, standard co-ed classrooms force children into rigid expectations too early, pushing left-brain cognitive development at the expense of necessary physical play for both genders.
* **Testosterone Surge:** Boys experience a heavy testosterone peak between ages 3 and 6 that drives high physical activity.
* **Optimal Learning Schedule for Boys:** Short 30-to-45-minute academic blocks interleaved with up to four daily recess breaks.
* **Single-Gender Early Education:** Komisar proposes separating boys and girls in early schooling to tailor learning styles and encourage risk-taking (e.g., boys trying art and music; girls pursuing STEM).
---
[02:19:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8381s) Cultural Taboos, Men's Purpose, and Low Testosterone
When asked how to address systemic issues affecting men, Komisar emphasizes the need to break the silence surrounding the biological costs of shifting male roles. Re-engineering society to make men stay-at-home caregivers directly impacts their physiology by lowering testosterone and stripping away evolutionary purpose. While women historically derive self-esteem from multiple sources (work, children, relational networks), men have traditionally tied their self-worth to purposeful work outside the home and protecting their families.
Attempts to rapidly alter thousands of years of evolutionary design in under a century create friction, envy, jealousy, and disappointment within marriages. A working mother returning home to a caregiving husband may appreciate his loving nature yet privately express disappointment that he isn't providing financially or protecting her. Komisar stresses that couples must talk openly about these hidden dynamics rather than ignoring them.
* **Self-Esteem Sources:** Women typically tap into work, children, and social relationships, whereas men historically rely on external purposeful work and family protection.
* **The Evolutionary Timeline:** Komisar warns that fast-tracking socio-cultural shifts in under 100 years clashes with millennia of human evolutionary biology.
---
[02:21:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8494s) Research on Fatherhood and Testosterone Decline
The host cites a landmark longitudinal study conducted in the Philippines that tracked 624 men over nearly 5 years. The data revealed that entering fatherhood triggers a significant drop in testosterone levels, especially for actively involved dads. Newly partnered fathers experienced a median decrease of nearly 30% in morning testosterone and 35% in evening testosterone—far greater drops than those seen in single non-fathers.
Fathers spending three or more hours daily in direct child care, as well as those who co-sleep with their infants, showed markedly lower testosterone compared to less involved or non-co-sleeping fathers. While evolutionary theories suggest this decline suppresses the urge to seek outside mates and encourages nurturing, Komisar notes that a moderate drop is natural, but severe suppression from full-time caregiving can create health, marital, and psychological complications.
* **Philippines Longitudinal Study Details:**
* **Sample:** 624 men followed over nearly 5 years.
* **Morning Testosterone:** Drops by ~30% in newly partnered fathers.
* **Evening Testosterone:** Drops by ~35% in newly partnered fathers.
* **Child Care Impact:** Spending $\ge 3$ hours daily on direct caregiving directly correlates with significantly lower testosterone levels.
* **Co-sleeping Effect:** Close physical proximity during sleep further accelerates male hormonal drops.
---
[02:23:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8616s) Devices, Social Media, and the Adolescent Brain
Addressing screens and digital technology, Komisar highlights the American Academy of Pediatrics guidelines prohibiting screen exposure under age two. Devices artificially spike dopamine levels in the brain, triggering addictive cycles. This effect is exceptionally potent in teenagers; due to heightened neurological sensitivity and an undeveloped prefrontal cortex (which doesn't fully mature until around age 25), an adolescent's brain can experience a tenfold increase in dopamine response from screen stimulus compared to an adult's.
Social media intentionally targets adolescent hyper-vigilance, triggering the amygdala and trapping youth in a chronic state of stress, fear, and perfectionism. Girls in particular fall into trapped, "Inception"-like virtual paradigms of social comparison, self-consciousness, and isolation.
* **Pediatric Guidelines:** Zero screen technology (iPhones, iPads) under age 2; co-watching calm programming like *Mister Rogers' Neighborhood* is acceptable afterwards.
* **Dopamine Sensitivity:** Adolescent brains experience up to a 10x higher dopamine response to tech stimuli than adults due to an immature prefrontal cortex (maturing at ~25).
* **Neurological Impact:** Screen overload over-activates the amygdala, pushing children into chronic stress and anxiety states.
---
[02:27:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8830s) The Irreplaceable Value of Parental Presence
Komisar insists that direct parental presence is the single most critical factor in a child's mental health. Society wrongly operates under the assumption that child rearing can be delegated like corporate tasks. While CEOs can delegate accounting, cooking, or laundry, delegating primary parental care destroys essential emotional attachment security.
* **Delegation Rule:** "Delegate your accounting, delegate your laundry, delegate your cooking... But, spend time with your children."
---
[02:28:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8892s) What Employers Must Do for Working Parents
When asked how business leaders should support parents, Komisar urges companies to provide maximum paid parental leave for primary attachment figures. Beyond leave, employers must grant working parents genuine control and flexibility through part-time tracks, job-sharing, and hybrid remote setups.
She defends allowing parents to leave early (e.g., at 4:00 PM) to be home with their children, dismissing complaints from non-parent employees regarding "fairness." Healthy children are a foundational societal necessity, making non-overlapping standards mandatory for working parents.
* **Workplace Flexibility Options:** Part-time arrangements, job-sharing, remote work choices, and flexible daily departure times.
* **Equity vs. Equality:** Komisar argues that societal survival requires prioritizing young children over exact employee parity: "Life isn't fair... that's what society needs. It needs healthy children."
---
[02:29:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8987s) Speaking Inconvenient Truths and Personal Roots
Acknowledging the extreme controversy surrounding her views, Komisar explains that someone must voice "inconvenient truths" to break cycles of childhood trauma. She stresses that pleasing the public is irrelevant compared to advocating for children's well-being.
She reveals the deeply personal origins of her life's work: her own loving mother suffered from severe childhood trauma that caused her to dissociate emotionally. Though physically present, her mother was like "sand that slipped through my fingers." She explains that parents must do two distinct things: feel empathy for their child's distress, and actively think about who their child is. Her mother could feel for her, but could not hold her in her mind.
* **Dual Duties of Parenting:**
1. **Feeling:** Empathizing with and never turning away from a child's pain.
2. **Thinking:** Actively understanding and holding the child's identity in mind.
* **Personal Background:** Komisar suffered social struggles, identity issues, and low self-esteem in adolescence due to her mother's emotional dissociation. Before finding her calling in psychoanalysis, she spent her 20s exploring careers in television production, Capitol Hill, and public relations.
[02:32:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=9153s) Erica's Path to Psychoanalysis and Her Obituary
Erica reflects on the transformative personal moment that shaped her entire career: sitting in her therapist's office as a young woman, looking around, and realizing, "This is where I want to be. I want to do what she does, and I want to help people the way she's helped me." She emphasizes that as psychoanalysts, practitioners must undergo treatment for many years to thoroughly work on themselves, ensuring they remain "very organized" as individuals so they do not inadvertently project their own unresolved issues onto their patients. This deep self-exploration is what ultimately drives her commitment to maternal care and protecting vulnerable infants.
Transitioning to the show's closing tradition, host Steven Bartlett presents the anonymous question left by the previous guest: "What does your obituary say?" Erica reacts with lighthearted surprise, eagerly wanting to know who posed it before reflecting deeply on her legacy. She envisions her obituary describing her as kind, generous, compassionate, fervent in her beliefs, "stubborn as hell," a good friend, a good mother, and a wonderful wife.
* **Psychoanalytic Training:** Requires years of personal therapy so clinicians do not inadvertently project personal issues onto patients.
* **Desired Obituary Qualities:** Kind, generous, compassionate, fervent, stubborn as hell, good friend, good mother, and wonderful wife.
---
[02:34:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=9263s) Dissenting Voices, Parenting Advice, and Final Reflections
Steven adds that Erica's obituary will undoubtedly include the profound impact of her public work. While recognizing that her opinions attract controversy, he argues that meaningful societal progress relies on individuals who have the courage to dissent from mainstream narratives based on their clinical experience and research. He notes that as a Black man in America, he owes his position to historical figures who possessed the conviction to challenge established norms. Facing fatherhood himself, Steven admits to struggling through contradictory modern advice—such as leaving a crying toddler on the supermarket floor or using time-outs—making Erica's counter-narrative deeply valuable to hear.
Erica warmly offers Steven her personal number to guide him through upcoming fatherhood as they wrap up the interview. Steven plug her books—*Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters* (2017) and *Chicken Little The Sky Isn't Falling: Raising Resilient Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety* (2021)—along with her upcoming book on divorce set for next year. Erica directs listeners to her website, ericakomisar.com, and her community initiative, Attachment Circles, designed to support and educate primary caregivers.
* **Featured Books:** *Being There* (2017) and *Chicken Little The Sky Isn't Falling* (2021).
* **Upcoming Book:** Focuses on the impact of divorce, set for release next year.
* **Online Platforms:** ericakomisar.com and Attachment Circles (a platform providing community and education for caregivers).
---
[02:36:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=9416s) Podcast Closing and Call to Action
Steven concludes the episode by introducing *The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards*, a physical card game featuring questions left by previous podcast guests alongside QR codes revealing their responses. He notes these cards are designed to prompt meaningful connection at home, work, or while traveling, and can be purchased at thediary.com.
Closing with a direct plea to his audience, Steven points out a striking statistic: 53% of regular listeners have not yet subscribed to the channel. He asks viewers for a simple, free favor to hit the subscribe button, promising in return that he and his team will continuously incorporate listener feedback to improve the quality of future episodes and secure top-tier guests.
* **Conversation Cards:** Available at thediary.com to foster deep discussions.
* **Subscriber Statistic:** 53% of regular listeners are not subscribed to the channel.
## Notable quotes
> [05:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=317s) We are abandoning our children for our own desires, for our careers, for material success. And there was a great deal of misunderstanding about the irreducible emotional needs of children. — Erica Komisar
> [09:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=589s) You don't have to have children, period, to have a satisfying life. But if you're going to have children, you need to be equipped to care for them... — Erica Komisar
> [21:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1267s) If we don't feel guilt, then our species is lost... When we turn towards our internal conflicts, we tend to make better decisions for ourselves, for our children, for our families. — Erica Komisar
> [53:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3207s) America sucks — Erica Komisar
> [01:10:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4233s) putting your finger in a dike — Erica Komisar
> [01:23:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5006s) sailing in the Caribbean — Erica Komisar
> [01:27:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5224s) I can see that you really want that packet of sweets. I can see how hard it is... but you know you can't have it before dinner. You know that's the rule. — Erica Komisar
> [01:36:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5804s) Parenting is a team sport, not a competitive sport. — Erica Komisar
> [01:36:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5804s) Save your competition for the tennis court, for the basketball court, for running in the park, but don't compete over child-rearing. — Erica Komisar
> [01:43:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6200s) you can't be emotionally present if you're not physically there enough of the time. — Erica Komisar
> [01:51:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6683s) By 3 years of age, you're growing a garden... This is an abundant garden of brain tissue... After 3 years old, they go into childhood... from 3 to 9, it's still growing, but it's not growing at the same pace... Now, adolescence comes, 9 to 25. And now you have to prune back the garden because if you don't prune back the cells you don't need, it's as damaging to the brain as if you didn't grow them to begin with. — Erica Komisar
> [01:55:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6919s) Children need you when they need you, not when you're personally available. — Erica Komisar
> [01:55:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6919s) it takes a relationship to cause the trauma and it takes another relationship to repair it. — Erica Komisar
> [02:27:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8830s) Delegate your accounting, delegate your laundry, delegate your cooking... But, spend time with your children. — Erica Komisar
> [02:28:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8892s) Life isn't fair... that's what society needs. It needs healthy children. — Erica Komisar
## Mentioned
Erica Komisar, Steven Bartlett, The Diary Of A CEO, Jonathan Haidt, John Bowlby, Mary Ainsworth, Harry Harlow, Michael Meaney, Jordan Peterson, Richard Williams, Venus Williams, Serena Williams, Joe Jackson, Michael Jackson, Earl Woods, Tiger Woods, Mathew Knowles, Beyoncé, Claude Monet, Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters, Chicken Little the Sky Isn't Falling: Raising Resilient Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety, Attachment Circles, The Wall Street Journal, Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs), American Academy of Pediatrics, Mister Rogers' Neighborhood, The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards, Cognitive Behavioral Therapy (CBT), Dialectical Behavior Therapy (DBT), Social Security
Psychoanalyst Erica Komisar argues that contemporary child mental health crises, including rising ADHD diagnoses, stem from cultural practices that dismiss infants' biological needs for secure attachment during critical developmental windows. She maintains that emotional regulation requires sustained parental presence in the first three years, challenging modern reliance on institutional daycare, gender-neutral caregiving assumptions, and psychiatric medication.
Early Brain Architecture and the Presence Requirement (13:14)
Human brain development undergoes its first major neurogenesis window between birth and age three, during which roughly 85% of right-brain architecture—governing emotional regulation, empathy, and stress resilience—is established. Komisar asserts that infants rely on mothers to act as an external nervous system, soothing distress through touch, eye contact, and vocal attunement, which buffers developing neural systems against toxic cortisol surges via oxytocin release.
Komisar rejects the modern assumption that brief 'quality time' can replace total volume of presence, arguing that infants require availability on their own unpredictable schedules. Furthermore, she characterizes placing children under three in daycare for socialization as a developmental myth. Because toddlers engage only in parallel play rather than cooperative peer socialization, their primary developmental need is 'rapprochement'—venturing out to explore while regularly returning to a primary caregiver for emotional refueling.
The ADHD Epidemic as Chronic Stress Response (62:59)
Addressing surging ADHD rates—which Bartlett notes rose 20-fold in the UK between 2000 and 2018 and affect 1 in 9 children in the United States—Komisar contends that ADHD is largely not an intrinsic disorder, but a hypervigilant stress reaction. Under natural conditions, an infant's amygdala remains largely sheltered by maternal presence. Premature separations, sleep training, and domestic instability force the amygdala into precocious overactivation, fostering an overdeveloped neurological 'on switch' paired with an underdeveloped hippocampal 'off switch.'
Statistical metrics on Adverse Childhood Experiences (ACEs) support this environmental link, showing that an ACE score of 4 or higher increases reported ADHD risk by nearly 400%, alongside substantial elevations tied to divorce, parental mental illness, and socioeconomic hardship. Komisar criticizes the routine use of stimulant medications as a form of symptom suppression that ignores root causes. She advocates parent guidance therapy to address domestic stressors, warning that chronic hypervigilance eventually exhausts the nervous system into hypovigilant clinical depression.
Differentiated Biological Roles and Caregiver Hormonal Shifts (17:11)
Mammalian biology, Komisar argues, equips mothers and fathers with complementary, non-interchangeable caregiving functions. While mothers specialize in soothing sadness and fear through oxytocin-mediated nurturing, fathers employ vasopressin-driven behaviors to regulate high-arousal emotions like excitement and aggression through roughhousing and encouraging autonomy. She asserts that when fathers take over primary stay-at-home duties, they must be consciously trained to mirror maternal emotional responsiveness rather than resorting to distraction.
Taking on primary caregiving also carries marked physiological effects for men. Longitudinal research tracking 624 fathers in the Philippines revealed that active parenting reduced morning testosterone by approximately 30% and evening levels by 35%, with declines most pronounced among those providing three or more daily hours of direct childcare or co-sleeping. Komisar observes that while moderate drops temper mating impulses to support parenting, severe hormonal suppression can induce depression, marital friction, and reduced libido.
Structural Policy Deficits and Workplace Trade-Offs (53:27)
Modern parenting is further strained by 'family diaspora,' as couples move away from extended kin networks, isolating parents and amplifying the burdens of childcare. Komisar sharply criticizes US social policy, noting that alongside Papua New Guinea, the United States stands out globally for lacking federally mandated paid parental leave. She argues that a functioning society must guarantee at least one year of paid leave, followed by two years of flexible or subsidized part-time work, or allow parents to borrow against future retirement entitlements.
In the workplace, Komisar urges employers to establish structural accommodations for primary caregivers, including job sharing, remote options, and shortened workdays. She maintains that children cannot be treated as tasks to delegate to external staff without compromising emotional security, arguing that societal survival requires institutions to prioritize developmental needs over uniform workplace parity.
Komisar's framework highlights the neurodevelopmental trade-offs of modern career patterns and early institutional care, but her recommendations pose acute economic dilemmas for dual-income households and single parents. The discussion leaves unresolved how families can implement multi-year parental presence without compromising financial viability or widening gender disparities in workforce advancement.
精炼阅读摘要
精神分析师与育儿专家 Erica Komisar 指出，当代儿童心理健康危机并非不可避免，而是社会过度追求职业发展并忽视婴幼儿基本依恋需求的后果；过早送入托儿所及过度医疗化正在损害儿童的神经发育，父母（尤其是母亲在最初三年）的身体与情感陪伴不可替代。
大脑发育窗口与母亲的核心调节作用 (13:14)
人类大脑拥有两个关键的发展与可塑性窗口：0至3岁（快速神经元生成期）与9至25岁（青春期的突触修剪期）。Komisar 强调，儿童在3岁前大脑右半球的结构已有85%发育完成，该区域主要负责社交情绪处理、同理心与压力调节。在这一阶段，婴儿的神经系统极其脆弱，容易在平静与恐慌之间剧烈波动，亟需主要抚养者作为外部神经系统来平复情绪。
托儿所神话与ADHD的慢性压力本质
针对“托儿所有助早期社交”的常见观点，Komisar 明确予以反驳，指出3岁以下儿童缺乏互动游戏能力，仅能进行“平行游戏”，过早脱离父母置身于机构看护会导致慢性压力并诱发攻击性或依恋障碍。幼儿需要通过“情绪加油（rapprochement）”机制，在视线可及主要抚养者的情况下探索环境以建立真正的安全感。所谓的“陪伴质量胜过陪伴数量”是一种自恋幻觉，儿童的情感需求必须在其自身的时间表上得到持续响应。
父母生物学分工与全职父亲的生理挑战 (17:11)
Komisar 依据哺乳动物生物学指出，父母在育儿中承担着不同的演化分工。母亲主要受催产素驱动，专注于安抚恐惧、悲伤等消极情绪；父亲则以精氨酸加压素（vasopressin）为主导，通过打闹游戏和身体刺激引导孩子探索并调控兴奋与攻击性。若父亲承担全职照料角色，必须接受刻意的“母职抚育”训练，避免用转移注意力或漠视态度对待哭闹。同时，菲律宾一项追踪624名男性的纵向研究显示，积极参与育儿的父亲晨间睾酮下降约30%、晚间下降约35%，每日直接照护达3小时以上或与婴儿同睡会导致更显著的激素抑制，可能带来性欲减退或情绪低落等现实困扰。
压力源识别与避免药物滥用 (62:59)
统计数据显示英国儿童与青年的 ADHD 诊断在2000至2018年间激增近20倍，美国亦有超过10%的儿童确诊。Komisar 认为，除少数器质性病例外，ADHD 普遍属于杏仁核过度刺激导致的慢性过度警觉应激状态，而非固有神经发育缺陷；将其纯粹作为病症用中枢神经兴奋剂压制属于医疗过失，会带来抑郁、生长迟缓或惊恐发作风险。不良童年经历（ACEs）研究表明，经历4项或以上创伤的儿童获报 ADHD 的概率增加近400%，贫困、离异、家庭精神病史及微妙的“小T创伤”（如情感忽视或依恋中断）都是主要诱因。她呼吁父母在服药前寻求育儿指导，排查家庭与环境中的压力源。
社会支持体系与工作场所制度重构 (53:27)
Komisar 严厉批评美国缺乏法定带薪育儿假的政策环境，指出将经济增长凌驾于家庭健康之上是严重倒退。她提议文明社会应提供至少一年的全额带薪产假，以及随后的两年兼职补贴支持，或允许父母提前支取部分社会保障金以渡过关键育儿期。雇主应当打破所谓对未育员工的“绝对公平”，为婴幼儿父母提供弹性工时、远程办公及提前下班待遇，因为社会的长期延续依赖于培育身心健全的下一代。
Komisar 的观点挑战了追求职场平等与早期机构看护的当代主流思潮，但也因其对全职母亲角色的推崇和对双薪家庭现实限制的批判而备受争议；如何在经济生存压力与满足儿童生物学发展需求之间取得切实平衡，仍是有待社会政策进一步回应的核心难题。
Detailed notes — zh
## Background
本期访谈由 YouTube 著名播客频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人为 Steven Bartlett）于 2025 年 3 月 3 日发布。节目特邀拥有三十余年临床经验的精神分析学家兼亲职教育专家埃里卡·科米萨（Erica Komisar），围绕其著作与研究，深入探讨了早期育儿压力如何诱发多动症（ADHD）、托儿所对低龄幼儿的隐形创伤，以及为何在孩子生命前三年确立父母陪伴优先权至关重要。
## TL;DR
埃里卡打破了现代育儿中“托儿所促进社交”与“低时长高质量陪伴”等流行迷思，指出0至3岁是人类右脑社会情绪中枢构建的黄金窗口期，主要依恋对象（尤其是母亲）的敏感情感滋养是阻隔皮质醇侵蚀、建立情绪自控的生物学屏障。她深入剖析了 ADHD 激增背后的压力机制，强调多动与注意力涣散本质上是神经系统长期处于“战或逃”模式的代偿反应，而非不可逆的基因缺陷，过度依赖精神药物无异于掩耳盗铃。此外，对话深刻审视了父母生物学分工的差异、角色颠倒对男性睾酮与亲密关系的冲击，并揭示了电子屏幕成瘾对青少年神经发育的破坏，呼吁父母与全社会直面牺牲、守护真正的早期陪伴。
## Atmosphere & style
整场对话在冷静严谨的科学剖析与直击痛点的犀利交锋中展开，埃里卡态度果决坦诚、言辞不加粉饰，带着对现代社会漠视儿童需求的深沉怒火，敢于逆流抛出令许多人感到刺痛的演化生物学真相。主持人史蒂文则敏锐而真诚，不仅代表普通大众从现实生存压力、阶层限制和科技前沿提出尖锐质询与实时求证，更在即将为人父的坦诚迷茫中展现出求知者的柔软与谦逊。随着对谈从枯燥的神经机制延展至埃里卡自身原生家庭的解离创伤，录音室里的理性思辨逐渐升华为充满同理心与生命温度的内在疗愈，带给听众一种震撼与肃穆交织的情感共鸣。
## Bulletin
- [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=0s) 全球约五分之一儿童在离开童年期前遭遇严重心理障碍，精神分析学家埃里卡·科米萨尔指出，该危机根源在于现代社会忽视了儿童早期不可缩减的情感需求，而非单纯由社交媒体引发。
- [13:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=794s) 人类负责情绪调节与依恋机制的右脑约85%在3岁前完成发育，母亲通过肌肤接触分泌催产素中和皮质醇，充当婴儿脆弱神经系统的生物缓冲器。
- [01:13:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4431s) ADHD被重新定义为神经系统在超负荷压力下的应激反应而非单纯先天缺陷；童年不良经历（ACEs）达4项以上的孩子，确诊ADHD的风险激增近4倍。
- [02:21:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8495s) 菲律宾长期追踪研究证实，全职照料幼儿使新晋父亲早晚睾酮水平分别下降30%和35%，揭示出传统家庭角色完全颠倒对男性激素与身心带来的演化错位冲击。
## Key takeaways
- [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=0s) 打破托儿所与陪伴神话：3岁前幼儿在发育上不需要同伴社交，强行送托会推高皮质醇水平；所谓的“高质量时间”无法替代充裕的时间体量。
- [02:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=122s) 核心“3P”使命：埃里卡提出在0-3岁与9-25岁两大脑发育窗口期落实陪伴（Presence）、优先排序（Prioritization）与预防（Prevention），反对只治标不治本的药物干预。
- [16:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1004s) 父母生物学职能分工：母亲负责通过催产素滋养和调节悲伤、恐惧与痛苦；父亲则通过加压素主导打闹玩耍，引导兴奋与攻击性边界。
- [20:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1245s) 内疚感是共情与道德的试金石：面对哭泣婴儿产生的健康内疚源自内在自我博弈，盲目消除内疚会导致对后代脆弱性的彻底漠视。
- [23:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1400s) “家庭大流散”加剧育儿孤立：现代人远离大家庭支持系统独自育儿，既增加了育儿耗竭，也助长了推迟生育与自愿不育的文明困境。
- [29:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1779s) 病理性依恋的代际传递：早期严重分离会导致回避型、矛盾型与混乱型依恋，成年后直接投射为抑郁、亲密关系困难及边缘型人格障碍。
- [45:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2734s) 戳破“无所不能”的职场神话：精英女性兼顾光鲜事业与深度育儿纯属幻象，早期陪伴需要通过物质消费降级与职业边界妥协来换取。
- [51:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3078s) 哈洛实验与表观遗传学证据：早期皮肤接触能永久优化压力调控基因表达，缺乏抚育不仅损伤个体抗压韧性，更会削弱跨代养育本能。
- [01:07:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4065s) ADHD是“战或逃”应激而非疾病：过早托育与睡眠训练过度激活了本应休眠的杏仁核，导致大脑处于高警觉、缺乏制动调节的应激失衡状态。
- [01:14:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4496s) 血清素敏感基因的表观中和机制：ADHD并非由单一基因注定，携带敏感基因的婴儿若在第一年获得充分共情抚育，病理表达可被彻底中和。
- [01:28:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5299s) 大写T创伤与小写t创伤：相较于显性重大事故，家庭内部微小的隐性忽视、自恋型父母以及情感缺位等隐性创伤同样会诱发成年抑郁与焦虑。
- [01:24:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5087s) 情绪管教的第一法则是共情：面对孩子失控哭闹，切忌吼叫或生硬拒绝，应建立“情绪映照—确立边界—复读机式坚持”的正向沟通循环。
- [02:04:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7498s) 俄狄浦斯期与父亲缺失的影响：3至6岁异性父母是浪漫关系原型，父亲情感缺位会导致女孩终生陷入情感饥渴或强迫性寻找虐待型伴侣。
- [02:16:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8183s) 教育体系对小男孩天性的误诊：男孩3至6岁经历睾酮激增，现行要求长时间静坐的教学模式将正常的体能释放误判为多动症，提倡实行早期单性别教育。
- [02:23:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8617s) 电子屏幕对大脑多巴胺与杏仁核的侵害：2岁以下应严禁接触屏幕，未成年人对多巴胺的超高敏感度与未成熟前额叶使其极易深陷虚拟完美主义成瘾与慢性应激。
- [01:57:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7077s) 唯有关系才能疗愈关系：童年早期创伤可在青春期或成年后通过长期的动力学心理咨询进行安全修复，但父母的物理在场永远无法外包。
## Detailed walkthrough
### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=0s) 育儿神话破灭与儿童心理健康危机
当今社会正面临严峻的儿童心理健康危机：每五个孩子中就有一个在童年结束前患上严重的精神或心理疾病，包括焦虑症、抑郁症、多动症（ADHD）以及各类行为障碍。令心理分析学家埃里卡·科米萨（Erica Komisar）感到愤怒的是，社会和公共话语并没有向父母们道出这一切背后的真正根源。面对那些听起来令人不安甚至引发争议的观点，埃里卡直言，事实往往就是令人不适的真相，但她的每一项结论都有扎实的科学研究支持。凭借超过三十年的临床实践与学术研究，她致力于打破现代社会关于如何抚养健康孩子的流行神话。
首当其冲被打破的，便是“日托托儿所（daycare）有益于幼儿社交”的普遍共识。埃里卡指出，过早将婴儿送入日托对他们的大脑发育极为不利，这种做法已被证实会增加孩子的攻击性、行为障碍和依恋障碍。婴儿在出生后的前三年，在情感安全感上对母亲有着不可替代的依恋需求。尽管父亲的作用同样关键，但两者的生物学与心理机制截然不同。此外，“高质量陪伴可以替代陪伴时长”（quality vs. quantity time）也是一个巨大的谎言。幼儿需要的不仅是高质量的陪伴，更是充足的时间体量；父母不可能一边全身心追求光鲜亮丽的职业生涯，一边只在自己方便的碎片时间里陪伴孩子——建立依恋必须依循孩子的时间节奏，而不是成人的日程表。即使面对单亲或经济困窘等现实特权与困境，也必须正视这些客观规律并寻找创造性的应对策略。
- **儿童心理危机比例**：全球范围内约有五分之一的儿童在离开童年期前遭遇严重心理障碍，美国比例高达五分之一（1/5），英国约为六分之一（1/6）。
- **育儿核心迷思**：托儿所促进幼儿社交（实则加剧压力与依恋障碍）、陪伴重在质量而非数量（实则幼儿需要充裕且符合其节奏的时间投入）。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 现代育儿迷思与潜在后果
accDescr: 流程图展示了现代流行的育儿迷思如何导致儿童长期情绪调节障碍与心理危机。
subgraph Myths["流行的现代育儿迷思"]
M1["迷思一：过早日托有助于社交"]
M2["迷思二：低时长但高质量的陪伴即可"]
M3["迷思三：事业与育儿时间可以随意割裂"]
end
subgraph Impact["早期生理与心理冲击"]
I1["0-3岁关键期大脑压力超载"]
I2["主要依恋对象缺失"]
I3["情绪调节机制发育受阻"]
end
subgraph Consequences["中长期心理健康危机"]
C1["攻击性行为与多动症状（ADHD）"]
C2["依恋障碍、重度焦虑与抑郁"]
end
M1 --> I1
M2 --> I2
M3 --> I2
I1 --> I3
I2 --> I3
I3 --> C1
I3 --> C2
```
### [02:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=122s) 埃里卡的“3P”使命：陪伴、优先排序与预防
埃里卡将自己的核心使命概括为“3P原则”：陪伴（Presence）、优先排序（Prioritization）以及预防（Prevention）。面对普遍将焦点放在成人自我实现而忽视下一代的社会风气，她的目标是向父母、政策制定者、临床医生与教育工作者传播科学真相。孩子未来的心理健全，严重依赖于主要照料者在成长全过程中身心兼备的在场与陪伴，尤其是在大脑发育最为关键的两个窗口期：0到3岁的婴儿期，以及9到25岁的青春期至成年早期。在0到3岁的大脑奠基阶段，孩子的大脑发育几乎完全受制于外界环境，而父母正是婴儿赖以生存的环境本身。唯有建立起稳固的安全型依恋（attachment security），才能打下未来抵御逆境与压力的心理地基。
在优先排序上，现代社会陷入了一种扭曲的价值取向——人们把工作、事业、物质成功、个人享乐与欲望摆在首位，唯独将孩子排在末位。埃里卡警告说，这种对孩子情感需求的推迟或忽视终将付出代价：缺乏关注的孩子迟早会崩溃，有人在3岁发作，有人在8岁爆发，还有人直至青春期才彻底坍塌。最后是预防，目前的精神卫生体系大多是在“割草”（cutting the grass），仅靠给幼童开精神类药物或实施认知行为疗法（CBT）来做痛苦管理与对症掩盖，却从不追问病痛的根源。社会必须反思：情绪调节能力究竟从何而来？为什么我们不能从生命最初期就培养孩子的心理韧性，以防患于未然？
- **脑发育两大黄金窗口期**：0至3岁（婴儿脑神经奠基期）与9至25岁（青少年至大脑完全成熟期）。
- **心理健康干预现状**：主流医疗系统过度依赖药物掩盖痛苦、忽视深层原因，被形象地比喻为治标不治本的“割草”。
### [05:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=317s) 临床执业经历与研究洞察：为何孩子越来越早生病？
作为一名拥有三十余年一线执业经验的精神分析学家和临床社会工作者，埃里卡撰写过多部亲职教育著作（如《身临其境：为什么在孩子前三年将母职置于首位至关重要》*Being There*），并独立抚养了三名身心健康的成年子女。大约在三十年前（即她执业的第五年左右），埃里卡在诊疗室中注意到了一个极为反常的趋势：前来进行心理咨询的家庭中，患病孩子的年龄越来越小，许多极度幼小的孩子早早被确诊患有严重的精神疾患，并被施以精神类药物治疗。在埃里卡看来，用精神药物去对付幼童，本质上是在用药理手段“强行压制并封堵他们呼喊痛苦的声音”。
在深入观察这些案例后，埃里卡发现了一个残酷而清晰的规律：那些状态最差、心理崩溃最严重的孩子，往往正是母亲或核心依恋对象在日常生活中缺位最严重的孩子。为了探明背后的生理机理，埃里卡结合了自1990年代以来蓬勃发展的神经科学研究、自1960年代确立的传统依恋理论，以及新兴的表观遗传学（epigenetics）。多学科的证据交叉印证了一个结论：现代父母在追求自我欲望、职业晋升和物质财富的过程中，在实质上抛弃了孩子；整个社会对儿童那些“不可削减的情感需求”（irreducible emotional needs）存在着极其深刻的无知与漠视。
- **执业时间与历程**：埃里卡从事临床心理工作约36年，早在执业第5年便敏锐捕捉到儿童心理疾病低龄化的危险趋势。
- **理论依据交汇**：融合神经科学脑显像数据、约翰·鲍尔比（John Bowlby）等人的经典依恋理论，以及表观遗传学环境对基因表达影响的最新成果。
### [08:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=506s) 埃里卡的求助者画像与社会的演变拐点
如今，埃里卡依然保持着全职的临床咨询工作。她的求助者群体极为广泛，涵盖了阅读其《华尔街日报》专栏及书籍后慕名而来的父母、陷入抑郁与焦虑的成年人，以及深陷沟通危机的伴侣。在育儿指导（parent guidance）门诊中，前来求助的父母通常面临两类诉求：一部分是防患于未然型，他们希望在喧嚣杂乱、充斥着错误信息的现代社会中保持清醒，依循科学规律养育身心健康的孩子；另一部分则是危机应对型，他们的孩子已经表现出情绪或行为异常，父母不甘心直接用精神类药物麻醉孩子，急切希望揪出引发病症的隐秘病根。
从进化生物学角度来看，人类天生具备亲近并抚慰后代的强烈本能：感知婴儿的痛苦、在他们脆弱时给予无微不至的安全感与平复、言传身教地传递价值观。然而，人类的这一古老天性在近代社会遭遇了重大断裂。埃里卡指出，这一转折的深层历史根源可以追溯至工业革命时期。工业革命彻底重构了家庭结构与劳动分工，将女性大规模卷入工厂与职场，打破了数万年来父母与幼儿紧密相依的自然生态，也为当今时代的依恋危机与心理困境埋下了最初的伏笔。
### [10:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=609s) 社会变迁与现代育儿危机：当婴儿的需求遭遇“唯我”浪潮
社会演变在工业革命时期让人们第一次离开家庭、走进工厂和城市，造成了最初的亲子分离。但 Erica 指出，真正对当下产生决定性负面影响的，是20世纪60年代兴起的“唯我运动（Me Movement）”与女权主义运动。这两场运动一方面极大地解放了社会，赋予女性独立、追求事业与经济平等的权利，人人都在为“我可以做自己的事、以自我为中心（Me, me, me）”而欢呼；然而硬币的另一面却是：“孩子们被抛下了，甚至可以说是被遗弃了。”
社会文化与观念可以随意更迭，但婴儿与生俱来的、不可缩减的神经与情感需求却历经万年未变。现代社会错误地将“心理韧性”投射在初生婴儿身上，认为孩子适应力很强，能承受各种压力、分离，甚至在出生仅6周或3个月后就被送入托儿所交给陌生人照顾。从进化生物学的角度来看，婴儿天生在神经和情感层面上都是极其脆弱的，不仅不具备天生的韧性，反而在生命第一年里极度依赖与母亲持续的肌肤接触（Skin-to-skin contact）。在世界许多地方，母亲始终把婴儿贴身包裹在身上，这是人类为建立“依恋安全感（Attachment Security）”所演化出的不可或缺的生理功能。
Erica 进一步指出，当下的儿童心理健康危机绝非近几年才突然爆发。她明确反驳了好友兼学者乔纳森·海特（Jonathan Haidt）等人“儿童心理健康危机始于社交媒体时代”的论调。早在30年前的临床一线，Erica 就已经观察到儿童心理病症的显著上升趋势。这种危机的根源在于半个世纪以来社会全面转向自恋主义、极端个人主义和“自我中心”。她强调，人完全可以选择不生孩子，依然能拥有极其充实满足的一生；但如果决定生育，就必须做好承担抚养职责的准备，否则无视儿童神经发育规律盲目生育，只会导致下一代在心理和情感上全面崩溃。
---
### [13:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=794s) 母亲为何不可替代：催产素与情绪调节的生理密码
面对主持人的追问——为何在2017年的著作《Being There》中以大字突出“优先母亲角色（Prioritizing Motherhood）”，而非将母亲与父亲或全职保姆等同视之？Erica 从进化论与神经科学角度给出了深入剖析。她坦言，当今社会推崇一种“性别中立”观念，主张父母双方角色可以完全互换，但这违背了哺乳动物数百万年演化的生理真相。两性并非不可替代，而是扮演着截然不同的进化职能，这些行为背后是由截然不同的抚养激素深度调控的。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 母亲的情绪调节与大脑保护机制
accDescr: 展示母亲通过敏感情感滋养安抚婴儿、调节神经系统并抵御压力荷尔蒙的生物学回路。
subgraph EmotionReg["婴儿情绪状态与调节"]
A["初生状态：大西洋风浪\n情绪在3秒内从0飙升到60"]
B["母亲敏感共情滋养\n肌肤接触、眼神对视、温柔语调"]
C["目标状态：加勒比海航行\n平稳调节、内化自控力"]
end
subgraph NeuroBiology["神经与激素变化"]
D["释放催产素 Oxytocin\n母性警觉与共情抚慰"]
E["抑制皮质醇 Cortisol\n防止压力荷尔蒙侵蚀脆弱大脑"]
F["促进右脑发育\n3岁前完成85%的神经构建"]
end
A --> B
B --> C
B --> D
D --> E
E --> F
```
在婴儿期和幼儿期，母亲是“敏感情感滋养（Sensitive Empathic Nurturing）”的核心提供者。初生婴儿的情绪就像在波涛汹涌的大西洋上航行，缺乏自我平复能力，情绪会在三秒内从零直接飙升到六十。母亲通过每一次肌肤相亲、目光注视以及温柔抚慰的语调，感同身受地接纳婴儿的痛苦并进行即时安抚，帮助他们将情绪平复到如同在“加勒比海”上航行般平稳。到3岁时，人类大脑右脑的85%已发育成熟，如果在这关键的前三年里有母亲持续在身体与情感上的陪伴并提供情绪镜像，孩子便能将这种情绪平复能力内化为一生的自我情绪调节机制；若缺失这种陪伴，孩子未来往往缺乏基本的情绪调控能力。
此外，母亲还构成了婴儿抵御压力的生物屏障。在婴儿出生后的第一年贴身佩戴抚育，并在前三年尽可能陪伴在侧，能有效防止压力激素——皮质醇（Cortisol）对大脑造成的神经损伤。当孩子哭泣喊疼时，母亲一声温柔的“宝贝别哭，让我亲亲痛痛的地方”，就能在婴儿脑内激发强大的催产素（Oxytocin，即“爱的荷尔蒙”），直接中和并抵抗皮质醇的破坏性侵害。
- 婴儿在3岁时，其大脑右脑发育已完成约 85%。
- 母亲的敏感情感滋养通过促发催产素分泌，直接充当抵御皮质醇（压力荷尔蒙）的天然生物护盾。
- 母亲主要负责帮助孩子调节悲伤（Sadness）、恐惧（Fear）与痛苦（Distress）等负面应激体验。
---
### [16:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1004s) 父亲的独特进化使命：激进玩耍、精氨酸加压素与情绪边界
父亲在育儿中同样至关重要，但其生物学机制与母亲有着本质的区别。父亲体内同样会分泌催产素，但该激素作用于男性大脑的不同脑区，驱动的行为并非温柔的安抚，而是成为“玩耍型触觉刺激者（Playful Tactile Stimulators）”。父亲最擅长的是把婴儿抛向空中、挠痒痒、追逐打闹（Roughhousing）。这种互动并非单纯的游戏，而是具有深远的进化意义：它极大地激发了孩子的探索精神、冒险意愿以及逐步走向独立的心理分离过程。
更关键的是，母亲与父亲在情绪调节的分工上存在互补：
- 母亲负责帮助孩子调节悲伤、恐惧与痛苦；
- 父亲则负责引导和规范兴奋（Excitement）与攻击性（Aggression）。
现实中，当单亲母亲独自抚养孩子、缺乏父亲在场时，许多小男孩往往表现出更冲动、更具攻击性的行为问题，正是因为他们失去了能够示范并规训这种攻击冲动的男性镜像。
```mermaid
flowchart LR
accTitle: 父母激素与情绪调节的分工对比
accDescr: 对比母亲与父亲在荷尔蒙分泌、行为表现及情绪调节维度的不同功能。
subgraph MotherRole["母亲角色"]
M_Hormone["催产素 (情绪中枢)"] --> M_Action["敏感共情滋养\n安抚、肌肤接触、情感镜像"]
M_Action --> M_Reg["调节：悲伤、恐惧、痛苦"]
end
subgraph FatherRole["父亲角色"]
F_Hormone["加压素 + 催产素 (刺激脑区)"] --> F_Action["玩耍型触觉刺激\n抛高、挠痒、打闹、警惕防御"]
F_Action --> F_Reg["调节：兴奋、冲动、攻击性"]
end
```
这种两性差异同样深植于另一种大量分泌于父亲体内的激素——精氨酸加压素（Vasopressin）。加压素是驱动男性保护意识与防御性攻击的生理基础。Erica 引用了一项来自英国的对比实验：当婴儿在夜间哭泣时，父亲通常会沉睡不醒，而母亲会瞬间惊醒；但当窗外稍有风吹草动的枯叶沙沙声时，母亲安然沉睡，父亲却会立即警觉醒来。这表明男性的神经生理天生更倾向于警惕外部捕食者与外来威胁。
Erica 坦言，在当今倡导绝对平等的语境下承认父母不可互换，是极具争议的“不合时宜的真相（Inconvenient Truth）”。但这并不意味着父亲不能承担全职育儿工作，而是说父亲只有先在认知上承认并理解两性的生理本能差异，才能有意识地去学习和掌握敏感情感滋养的能力，从而更全面地呵护孩子的成长。
主持人在此处插话指出一个有趣的现象：当他把 Erica 阐述的内容实时输入人工智能工具进行校验时，AI 系统反馈这些核心论点完全符合进化心理学与神经科学的前沿共识，反驳了当下社交媒体上盛行的政治正确式育儿观。Erica 回应称，她的所有著作绝非基于个人观点或主观偏好，每一项结论背后都有坚实的学术研究与严谨的神经科学证据作为支撑。
### [20:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1245s) 育儿真相的刺痛与“内疚感”的真正心理学意义
当被问及为什么自己的观点在受到大量科学研究支持的同时，却依然让许多人感到极度不安与愤怒时，Erica Komisar 直言不讳地引用了阿尔·戈尔（Al Gore）的名言：“这是一具‘难以忽视的真相’（an inconvenient truth）。”事实往往令人感到不便与被冒犯，而这种不适感最直接的触发点在于：它唤起了父母内心深处的“内疚感”（guilt）。
但与当下许多育儿潮流试图彻底消除内疚感不同，Erica 坚决认为内疚感绝不是一件坏事。从精神分析的角度来看，内疚感是一个人“自我”（ego）功能健全的直接标志——它证明了自我的超我（superego）部分仍在正常运转，能够准确识别是非对错与道德边界：
- **共情能力的试金石**：如果一个母亲或父亲看着自己嗷嗷大哭的亲生婴儿却毫无感觉、内心毫无波澜，那并不意味着他们天生邪恶，而是说明其内心的一部分已经“死掉了”（dead inside），对自己的骨肉丧失了最基本的共情。这种情况通常源于父母自身童年时期的早期创伤或依恋障碍，导致他们无法对婴儿的痛苦产生调谐。
- **健康内疚感的本质是内在冲突**：适度的内疚感是人性与物种存续的基石，它意味着两个自我在痛苦地博弈——一个自我想追求自由、外出打拼、赚取财富；另一个自我则在提醒自己：“等等，我的宝宝需要我，看着这个脆弱无助的小生命，我的缺席正在带给他巨大的痛苦。”如果人类对后代的无助完全丧失了内疚感，整个物种就彻底迷失了。
- **区分健康内疚与焦虑**：过度的、无边界的内疚（例如你明明已经是一个“足够好的母亲”，却依然惶惶不可终日）才被称为焦虑。对于绝大多数普通的内疚感，社会应当鼓励父母去直面冲突，而不是背过身去逃避。只有正视内疚与内在冲突，人们才能为自己、孩子和家庭做出真正明智且有长远益处的决定。
### [23:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1400s) 拒绝牺牲的脆弱一代与“家庭大流散”
谈及自己的真相究竟打扰了现代人的什么观念时，Erica 指出核心矛盾在于：养育身心健康的孩子不可避免地需要“牺牲”——牺牲个人的时间、金钱与全然的自由，必须经历不适、挫折与煎熬。然而，现代社会在一个高度利己、以自我为中心（selfish and self-centered）的环境中培养出了一批空前脆弱的年轻父母：
他们承受不了丝毫的挫折与痛苦，甚至承受不了缺觉。在某些富裕的阶层圈子里，生下孩子后立刻雇佣夜间育儿护士（baby nurse）替自己起夜，竟然已经演变成了一种习以为常的标配。这种脆弱性背后，是现代家庭生态的彻底瓦解：
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 传统与现代育儿环境的变迁对比
accDescr: 对比传统大家庭支持体系与现代孤立核家庭/个人主义的生活模式
subgraph Traditional["传统育儿模式（拓展家庭体系）"]
T1["几代人同住或邻近居住"] --> T2["母亲、姐妹与亲属随时分担压力"]
T2 --> T3["分散育儿挫败感与身心消耗"]
end
subgraph Modern["现代育儿模式（家庭大流散 Diaspora）"]
M1["因事业或个人追求远离原生家庭"] --> M2["孤立在郊区大房子或独立公寓"]
M2 --> M3["将'依赖他人'视作软弱与负面标签"]
M3 --> M4["独自承受育儿重压与极度孤立"]
end
```
历史上的人类从未像今天这样在与外界隔绝的环境中抚养后代；他们过去生活在大家庭支持圈里，有外祖母、姐妹和亲属共同分担。为了应对当下普遍的母亲孤立危机，Erica 创办了一个名为“依恋圈”（Attachment Circles）的非营利组织，帮助那些在独自育儿中不堪重负的母亲重新建立连结。
这种家庭结构的分崩离析跨越了社会阶层，但表现各异：
- **低收入群体**：虽然传统上社交网络更紧密，但许多单亲母亲被迫背井离乡、前往不同城市打工，同样沦落为孤立无援的个体。
- **富裕群体**：则主动选择了孤立——他们购买郊区的独栋豪宅，搬离原生家庭，将“相互依赖”视为贬义词。Erica 将这种反直觉、反本能的现象定义为“家庭大流散”（family diaspora）。即便原生家庭偶尔令人烦恼，只要不存在虐待，靠近亲人原本是养育后代最合理的天然屏障，如今却被现代人主动抛弃。
### [27:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1664s) 事业至上、自愿无孩与“最不快乐的孩子定律”
面对“如果一个人有自己的事业抱负与热情，必须在大城市打拼或全球奔波，该怎么办？”这一现实问题，Erica 的回应极其直白而尖锐：在拥有孩子之前，无论已婚与否，本质上都处于一种“单身”的自由状态，追求事业毫无问题；然而一旦决定将新生命带入这个世界，游戏规则就彻底改变了。
孩子在婴幼儿时期无法承受父母在身体和情感上的严重缺席。Erica 引用了一句深刻的格言：
> “一个父母的幸福上限，取决于他最不快乐的那个孩子。”（A parent is only as happy as their least happy child.）
现实中无数家庭付出的惨痛代价表明，如果父母为了追求“光鲜亮丽的自我时光”而牺牲早期陪伴，最终孩子在心理和行为上发生崩溃时，父母所追求的“光鲜人生”也将随之彻底破灭。针对当下许多年轻人索性选择“自愿不生育”（voluntary childlessness），Erica 认为这本身是一个诚实的选择——如果一个人看不到承担另一个生命责任的价值，选择不生无可厚非。但这背后往往也伴随着巨大的人格创伤：那些成长于自恋型、怨恨育儿、心不在焉或患有精神疾病的家庭中的成年人，因自身早期的创伤而丧失了与他人深度连接的能力，从而彻底错过了与亲生骨肉之间那种人世间“无与伦比的深层情感连接与奖赏”。
### [29:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1779s) 早期依恋障碍的显现：从安全型到回避型与矛盾型
在早期养育缺失的背景下，Erica 深入解析了儿童依恋障碍（Attachment Disorders）的生理与心理机制。她首先勾勒了“安全型依恋”（Secure Attachment）的标准母婴互动样态：
父母（通常是主要依恋对象的母亲）晚上外出与配偶吃一两个小时晚饭，当她推门回家的那一刻，婴儿展现出由衷的喜悦，重聚的场景（the reunion）充满温暖、快乐与安全感。这种状态之所以能达成，是因为在平日绝大多数时间里，主要抚养者都将婴儿放在绝对优先的位置，给予了其稳固的安全感底气。
然而，当现代父母不断挑战婴儿与生俱来的分离耐受极限——长时间送往托育机构（institutional care）、为事业满世界出差时，婴儿便会发展出不同类型的病理依恋模式：
- **回避型依恋障碍（Avoidant Attachment Disorder）**：当主要抚养者推开门回家时，婴儿不但不迎上前去，反而将头扭向一边，或者故意转头奔向保姆，直接对父母表现出冷漠和拒绝。这种防御机制意味着孩子学会了“切断期待”，其早期回避行为与成年期极高的**抑郁症**发生率以及日后**难以与伴侣建立深度亲密关系**有着极强的相关性。
- **矛盾型/焦虑型依恋障碍（Ambivalent Attachment Disorder）**：当母亲回家时，婴儿会死死抓住母亲不放，歇斯底里、烦躁易怒且极难被安抚。孩子内心深处的恐慌声音是：“妈妈随时会再次抛弃我，我必须死死抓住她。”Erica 将这种姿态比作哈洛著名的“恒河猴实验”中幼猴死死攀附铁丝母猴的凄惨状态，这种依恋创伤直接对应着青少年乃至成年期严重的**广泛性焦虑症**。
- **组织混乱型依恋障碍（Disorganized Attachment Disorder）**：与回避型和矛盾型各自发展出一套应对分离的内部心理策略不同，组织混乱型依恋呈现出完全碎裂、无序的行为反应，也是病理程度最深的一种依恋损伤。
### [31:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1914s) 依恋障碍背后的生存策略与当下的心理健康危机
婴儿所展现出的依恋障碍，本质上是在极端不安的环境中演化出的生存与应对策略。当孩子被父母长时间撇下，或者父母虽在肉体上“在场”却在情感上彻底“抽离”时，婴儿为了活下去就必须构建起自己的心理防线。回避型婴儿选择将脸扭向一边、不再寻求母亲的怀抱，其内心独白往往是：“妈妈不在我身边，她不会为我而来，我无法信任周围的环境，我只能靠自己扛下去”——这在心理学上被称为“习得性无助”（learned helplessness）。矛盾型依恋婴儿的策略则是死死纠缠：“我必须抓紧她，因为一旦松手，她就会再次抛下我。”而混乱型依恋（Disorganized attachment）则是临床上最难干预的类型，因为婴儿根本建立不起稳定的策略，只能在死缠烂打、冷漠回避、勃然大怒甚至动手掌掴母亲之间反复横跳。埃里卡指出，混乱型依恋在日后与边缘型人格障碍（BPD）高度相关，而如今社会上青少年自残、割腕乃至试图自杀的案例正急剧飙升。
面对主持人关于她平静外表下是否“正憋着一股怒火”（pissed off）的敏锐观察，埃里卡坦然承认自己确实愤怒。但她强调，自己的愤怒并非针对疲惫无助的父母，而是指向一个不断编织谎言、拒绝向父母吐露养育真相的冷酷社会。整个社会正在经历一场史无前例的心理疾病危机，而这场危机的源头，恰恰深植于我们对待和抚育婴儿的方式之中。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 婴儿依恋障碍形成机制与应对策略
accDescr: 展示当父母缺席或情感抽离时，婴儿为自我保护所演化出的不同依恋模式及其成年后影响。
subgraph Trigger["抚养环境缺失"]
A["父母物理缺席过久<br/>或情感彻底抽离"]
end
subgraph Strategies["婴儿期的应对策略"]
B["回避型：转身放弃期待<br/>形成习得性无助"]
C["矛盾型：极度黏人抓紧<br/>唯恐再度被弃"]
D["混乱型：无固定策略<br/>在纠缠、回避与暴怒间循环"]
end
subgraph Consequence["长远心理代价"]
E["情感隔离与承诺困难"]
F["窒息式控制与高度焦虑"]
G["边缘型人格障碍、自残与自杀风险"]
end
A --> B
A --> C
A --> D
B --> E
C --> F
D --> G
```
### [33:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2034s) 依恋障碍在成年亲密关系中的投射与配对机制
在四种依恋风格中，安全型依恋属于健康状态，而其余三种则构成了病理性的依恋障碍，它们会在成年的情感关系中暴露无遗。回避型的人难以建立有深度、有实质意义的情感连接，极度抗拒许下长久承诺，本能地排斥过分亲密的距离。矛盾型依恋的人则长期浸泡在高度焦虑中，在亲密关系里表现得令人窒息——他们可能每天给伴侣打五次电话查岗，时刻提防对方会像“溜走的小鱼”一样离自己而去，最终用窒息般的爱把伴侣推开。而混乱型依恋与边缘型人格障碍者，情绪极度动荡脆弱，内心积压着滔天的愤怒，并伴随频繁的自残行为。
关于不同依恋类型如何互相吸引，埃里卡解释道，心理健康的安全型自然会被同样健康、懂得相互滋养的人所吸引；但病理性的依恋防御也会让类似的人聚在一起，俗称“水平相近的水终会汇合”（levels of water meet）。例如，两个回避型的人可能会走在一起，因为彼此都不谈承诺、互不干涉，表面上相安无事。然而，所谓的“心理防御”本质上只是暂时的保护壳，一旦遭遇危机，这套防御机制就会崩塌。当其中一方突然崩溃、渴望依恋与支持时，却会绝望地发现另一方根本给不出任何情感回应。
- **成功率最高的依恋风格**：安全型依恋。因为他们在3岁前通过与母亲的深度连接，在脑海中内化了安全感，坚信世界是安全的、他人是值得信任并值得去爱的。
- **关系最脆弱、干预最困难的风格**：混乱型依恋。其情感模式极度破碎动荡，无论在临床治疗还是维持长久关系上都是挑战最大的群体。
### [38:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2287s) 养育的真实代价：多子女抚养与“母体耗竭综合征”
谈及抚养多个孩子是否必然导致忽视时，埃里卡指出了育儿工作中残酷的生理与心理极限。在发展中国家，医学上存在一种被称为“母体耗竭综合征”（maternal depletion syndrome）的现象，即母亲在极短时间内连续生育过多孩子，导致身体和情感资源被彻底掏空，甚至因而丧命。即使在优渥环境下，母亲也不可能同时把十个孩子抱在怀里提供无微不至的肌肤接触。
埃里卡直言不讳地揭开了育儿常被粉饰的温情面纱：“养育孩子就是充满压力的，就是令人沮丧挫败的。”在孩子出生的前五年里，父母注定要忍受长期的睡眠匮乏，必须具备容忍高度不适感和挫折感的心智容量。如果把育儿写成一份岗位说明书，第一条固然是“人生中最能带来充实与至高喜悦的事业”，但紧随其后的任职要求，必然充斥着极度的缺乏睡眠、持续的应激反应以及对个人舒适的彻底割舍。世间万事皆有对价，健康的儿童心智绝不可能在没有父母自我牺牲的温床中凭空诞生。
### [39:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2373s) 断崖式下跌的出生率与“主动不育”背后的文明困境
全球发达经济体正经历断崖式的生育率暴跌。主持人列举数据指出，欧盟在2022年的新生儿数量仅为380万，几乎只有60年前的一半，创下历史最低水平；以家庭福利优厚著称的法国，年出生人口也从2010年的83万暴跌至2023年的67万，创下二战以来的新低。埃里卡在“负责任公民联盟”（Alliance for Responsible Citizenship）大会上经常就此发表演讲，她分析认为，经济发达导致家庭规模自然缩小属于正常规律，原本生十个孩子的家庭减少到生两三个，受制于经济账和个人抚育精力的限制。
真正令埃里卡感到震悚和警惕的，并非生育数量的减少，而是越来越多现代人选择“彻底不生”。这不再是单纯的经济考量，而是标志着现代文明在价值观上的深层塌陷——整个社会不再视繁衍、抚养后代以及建立深度连接为生命的崇高优先项。
面对“我不生孩子，但我与伴侣、宠物狗或亲友同样拥有深厚爱意”的流行论调，埃里卡给出了坚决的反驳。她强调，与宠物或成年伴侣的关系，绝无法替代育儿中那种**完全的依附关系**（level of dependency）。
- **人性的质变与重塑**：全身心允许另一个极其脆弱的人类生命彻底依附于自己，并不计回报地倾注心血，这是人类生命走向成熟最深刻的转化体验。
- **心理学视角的“成年礼”**：心理学家乔丹·彼得森曾断言“一个人只有抚养了孩子才算真正成年”。虽然埃里卡因考虑到生理不孕人群而未完全采用这一绝对论断，但她坚信：照料一个完全依赖自己的幼小生命，能够唤醒并重塑人类精神中最深沉的无私与心智成熟。
### [42:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2555s) 生育前的内在修通与代际创伤阻断
生养孩子并不仅仅是社会学意义上的繁衍，在成年人心理发展维度上，它是一场旨在实现“繁衍与创造性”（generativity）的深刻人格蜕变。然而，Erica Komisar 明确划清了自己与当下流行的“鼓励生育主义”（pro-natalism）运动的界限。她强调，自己绝不鼓吹每个人都必须走入育儿轨道：“我并不认为人人都应该生孩子。”
相反，她的立场极为审慎：如果一个人决定把新生命带到这个世界上，首要的伦理责任是先向内审视，深入剖析自己的成长历程、未解决的丧失与早期创伤。为人父母者唯有预先修复好自身的情感创伤，才不至于将依恋障碍（attachment disorders）与心理疾患以代际遗传的方式继续传递给下一代。
---
### [43:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2605s) 蔓延全球的不孕危机与被美化的“冻卵神话”
对许多渴望成为父母的群体而言，现实正变得愈发艰难。主持人与 Erica 展开探讨，列举了当前令人触目惊心的全球不孕不育数据：
- 全球范围内约有 18% 的成年人（约每 6 人中就有 1 人）在一生中曾经历过不孕不育。
- 在美国，2015 至 2019 年间，15 至 49 岁女性中约有 15% 存在生育能力受损的情况。
- 英国的研究则显示，在 16 至 74 岁人群中，约八分之一的女性和十分之一的男性经历过不孕不育（医学定义为在未避孕情况下尝试怀孕一年或以上未果）。
谈及这一困境背后的成因，Erica 直言现代社会在环境毒素、生育推迟等问题之外，正在向年轻男女兜售极其危险的谎言。其中最令人不安的现象莫过于各大顶尖律所纷纷为年轻女性初级律师（associates）提供“冷冻卵子全额报销”的福利。这种看似体贴的职场诱饵，本质上是企业资本的剥削话术：“先替我们拼命加班，卵子冻起来，以后随时能生。”
然而医学真相极为残酷：冻卵绝不等于成功受精，受精形成的胚胎绝不等于顺利着床，胚胎更不等于最终呱呱坠地的健康婴儿。除了被严重推迟的年龄天花板，现代年轻人背负的隐性高压更是摧毁生育机能的元凶。过去男性因承担职场主要压力而普遍寿命较短，如今现代女性既要全职打拼事业，又要兼顾养育重任，双重身心压力已经将两性的健康风险完全拉平。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 不孕不育危机与职场冻卵陷阱成因
accDescr: 展示职场制度、生育延迟及生理心理压力共同推高现代不孕不育率的链条。
subgraph CorporateLie ["现代职场诱导"]
A["律所/大厂报销冻卵费用"] --> B["推迟生育年龄至35岁以上"]
B --> C["'万事皆可延后'的假象"]
end
subgraph BiologicalReality ["生物学生理现实"]
D["卵子质量随年龄下滑"]
E["冻卵 ≠ 形成健康胚胎 ≠ 顺利分娩"]
F["高强度职场与生活双重压力"]
end
C --> D
D --> E
F --> G["皮质醇飙升阻碍受孕"]
E & G --> H["全球不孕率攀升 (1/6)"]
```
---
### [45:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2734s) 戳破“无所不能”的职场神话与情感核心期
在讨论生育困局时，Erica 顺势揭穿了现代社会灌输给年轻人的另一个巨大神话：“你可以在同一个时间节点把所有事情都做好。”她毫不留情地直言，这纯粹是一场幻觉——一个人绝不可能在保持全职高强度投入、频繁差旅公干、维持光鲜亮丽职业成就的同时，还能把孩子养育得身心健全。
但希望在于，“人生其实很漫长”。随着医疗与寿命延长，现代人很可能像圣经中的摩西一样活到 120 岁，拥有数十年的漫长光阴去追求辉煌的事业。然而，父母被孩子深度依赖、能够为其奠定一生心理基石的窗口期却极其狭窄而脆弱：
- **物理核心 vs 情感核心**：人们在健身房花费大量精力打磨身体的“核心肌群”，但人类最关键的其实是“情感核心”（emotional core）。
- **情感核心的定义**：即安全的依恋基质，以及深植内心的确信感——确信当自己最脆弱、最需要帮助时，生命中最重要的人一定会守候在身旁。这一核心的建立，完全取决于人生最初几年的陪伴质量。
---
### [46:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2819s) Erica 的育儿取舍：用物质降级换取陪伴窗口
面对主持人关于“你既是三个孩子的母亲，又出版著作、全球巡回演讲，你自己究竟是如何兼顾”的提问，Erica 坦率分享了自己与丈夫的人生规划。她二十多岁时拼命打拼事业，27岁结识丈夫，30岁左右结婚，直至30岁后才要孩子。在生育之前，她每周看诊时间长达40小时，常常加班到深夜11点，精疲力竭地回家。
但夫妻二人在备孕时便达成了极具远见的家庭契约：
- **产后完全停工**：每生一个孩子，她都强制自己停工整整 6 个月，给予婴儿全天候的怀抱与照顾。
- **极简回归职场**：休假 6 个月后，她选择以极低的负荷复工——每周工作5天，但每天仅出诊 1.5 小时。其微薄的收入刚好只用来支付一位住家帮手（nanny/mother's helper）的薪水，维持家庭收支平衡。
- **物质欲望断舍离**：为了守护育儿窗口期，夫妻俩在那些年主动退出了中产阶层的消费竞赛。他们不买第二套度假房，不添置名牌华服，放弃奢华旅行，在同龄人争相扩张物质财富时选择主动紧缩生活。“生命很长，等孩子们长大独立了，你在四十多岁甚至更晚重新大放异彩完全来得及；事实上，我书中访谈的许多杰出女性，都是在四十多岁孩子不需要她们时才正式开启事业黄金期的。”
---
### [49:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=2943s) 母亲的生理天性与父亲在学步期的“向外引渡”
主持人进一步追问敏感议题：“如果当年是你丈夫留守家庭当全职奶爸，而你去全职打拼，效果会一样吗？”
Erica 给出了坚定的否定回答，并从生物学与儿童发展阶段阐明了父母职能的本质差异：
1. **哺乳与母婴躯体纽带**：母亲与婴儿之间存在通过妊娠、分娩和母乳喂养铸就的生物学内分泌纽带。“除非有朝一日男性也能长出乳房自然泌乳”，否则母亲天然对婴儿的需求具备更敏锐的生理响应。在生命最初阶段，婴儿必须将唯一的安全感锚定在初级依恋对象（绝大多数情况下是母亲）身上。
2. **18个月至2岁：父亲关键角色的崛起**：父亲并非不重要，但其职能的发展节奏截然不同。在婴儿期，父亲扮演支持母亲、协助换尿布洗澡、分担疲劳的后盾角色；但当幼儿到了 18 个月到 2 岁左右、开始学会爬行与蹒跚学步（toddle）时，父亲的价值便呈爆发式显现。
3. **“阴与阳”的分离机制**：父亲独特的“高刺激、触觉互动与打闹游戏”（playful tactile stimulation）对学步儿而言极富吸引力。如果父亲在此时缺位，孩子将极难从母亲怀抱中完成健康的分离心理过程。
4. **二胎降临时的“诱导分流”**：当家中迎来第二个孩子时，父亲更是不可替代的支柱。父亲会通过踢足球、荡秋千等充满探险感的户外游戏，“诱惑（seduce）”并吸引年长的大孩子走向外部世界，既帮助大孩子心理独立，又为母亲全心哺乳照顾新生儿腾出宝贵空间。
---
### [51:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3078s) 恒河猴与舔舐理毛：触觉依恋与抗压表观遗传学
谈及早期身体接触对大脑发育的科学证据，主持人与 Erica 重温了发展心理学史上的经典实验：
- **哈洛恒河猴实验（Harry Harlow's Wire Mother Experiment）**：
- **亲生母亲组**：在母猴抚育下获得充足触觉与情感回应，幼猴成长为情感健全、依恋稳定的个体。
- **绒布/铁丝母亲组**：提供裹有绒布或皮毛的假母猴模型，虽然幼猴可以依偎攀附，但由于假模型无法给予任何情感互动反馈，这批幼猴成年后表现出极其严重的“神经质”与矛盾依恋人格。
- **完全剥夺组**：完全不提供任何母体替代物，幼猴直接“彻底精神失常发疯（literally lost their minds）”。
- **迈克尔·米尼（Michael Meaney）的舐抚理毛（Licking and Grooming）表观遗传学研究**：
- Erica 补充指出了更为现代的神经生物学证据。研究发现，动物母体对幼崽的“舐抚与理毛”（licking and grooming）行为，在人类身上直接对应着皮肤接触（skin-to-skin contact）、拥抱、抚摸与母爱温存。
- 幼年期获得高频舐抚理毛的幼崽，大脑中与压力调控相关的基因表达被永久优化，成年后表现出极高的抗压心理韧性（stress resilience）；相反，未获得母体抚触的幼崽长大后对压力极其脆弱易碎。
- 更具震撼力的是，这种由早期触觉温存所塑造的心理韧性，具有跨代传递的表观遗传学效应，能深刻影响未来几代个体的身心机制。
### [53:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3201s) 跨代养育机制与美国缺乏带薪产假的现实
埃丽卡（Erica Komisar）延续了动物实验的比喻：在啮齿动物研究中，未能获得母鼠“舔舐与梳理”（lick and groom）的幼崽，长大后也丧失了对下一代进行舔舐与梳理的能力。她直言这一机制完全适用于现代人类——如果我们不去充分抚育、安抚婴儿，不仅无法将应对压力与逆境的坚韧力传递给下一代，甚至还会削弱下一代繁衍与抚育后代的本能欲望。
史蒂芬（Steven Bartlett）随即切入一个尖锐的现实问题：埃丽卡自身的抚育建议是否源于某种特权？对于那些生活在极端贫困环境中（例如哈林区的公营住房）、缺乏伴侣支持的母亲来说，全职带娃听起来可能是一种难以企及的奢望。埃丽卡却纠正指出，生活在哈林区公租房的极其贫困的母亲往往选择留在家里陪伴孩子，这在美国非常普遍。
谈及美国的社会制度，埃丽卡表达了强烈的愤慨：“我热爱美国，但美国在这方面糟透了（America sucks）。”她指出，在全球所有国家中，除了巴布亚新几内亚，美国是唯一一个完全没有法定带薪育儿假/产假（Paid Parental/Maternity Leave）的国家。社会与经济学家高唱“女性必须不断工作以刺激经济和 GDP”，根本没有人真正关心孩子。如果在制度层面真正重视儿童，税收理应被投入到至少一年的带薪假期中，而不是只有区区3至6个月。相比之下：
- 爱沙尼亚、匈牙利、斯洛文尼亚和斯洛伐克等国提供长达2至3年的带薪育儿假。
- 瑞典提供14个月的带薪产假，但埃丽卡对瑞典的模式保留意见：14个月期满后，女性被迫全职重返职场，婴儿被送进机构托育机构，造成许多孩子心理崩溃。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 抚育代际传递与政策支持逻辑链
accDescr: 展示从生理抚育到政策缺位如何影响儿童成长与代际心理韧性。
subgraph 生理与代际循环
A["婴儿获得充分抚育与安抚"] --> B["建立抗压坚韧力与育儿渴望"]
C["婴儿缺乏充分安抚与陪伴"] --> D["抗压脆弱 & 生育与抚育意愿丧失"]
end
subgraph 政策与社会环境
E["缺乏带薪产假（如美国）"] --> F["经济压力迫使母亲早期离家"]
F --> C
G["长期带薪假/弹性工时支持"] --> A
end
```
---
### [56:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3378s) 跨越党派分歧的创意政策设想与依恋科学依据
埃丽卡自认为是一个务实的现实主义者。她坦言，美国文化崇尚空谈却不愿出资，指望政府直接出台为期3年的法定带薪育儿假福利是不现实的。左派政客坚持要求政府补贴的法定假期，却仅主张推行3到6个月，随后就促使母亲重返职场并把孩子推给机构日托；右派政客标榜自己是“家庭价值的政党”，却极度抗拒将税收用于任何新增的社会福利，坚持要求当事人承担成本（skin in the game）。
随着共和党执政，埃丽卡提出了一种折中的创意解决方案：允许母亲或父亲预支未来的社会保障金（Social Security）来休一年假在家带娃，代价是退休时延后一至两年再退休。她相信许多渴望留在家里陪伴婴儿的母亲都会欣然接受“多工作一两年以换取在婴儿期全职陪伴”的方案。
史蒂芬随即提出质疑：如何从统计数据和科学研究上证明，提供长达三年的带薪假对社会而言是绝对的正向收益，而不仅是一种主观观点？埃丽卡援引了长达数十年的依恋追踪研究（Longitudinal Attachment Research）：
- 追踪研究表明，在12个月大时被评估为“不安全依恋”的婴儿中，有80%在20年后依然维持不安全依恋状态，并伴随各类心理与精神障碍。
- 婴儿期建立“安全依恋”的孩子，在20年后绝大多数依然保持安全依恋，心理健康状况良好。
- 只要家长将休假时间切实用于在家陪伴孩子，依恋安全性带来的长期心理健康效益就无可替代。
---
### [59:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3564s) 极度严苛的父母与被包装的“成功陷阱”
史蒂芬提到播客采访中的一个常见现象：许多极具统治力的顶级运动员和超级巨星，童年往往伴随着某种程度的忽视或严苛对待。例如：
- 维纳斯与塞雷娜·威廉姆斯（大威与小威）的父亲理查德·威廉姆斯（Richard Williams），从小施加高强度训练。
- 迈克尔·杰克逊的父亲乔·杰克逊（Joe Jackson），管教极其严厉甚至饱受争议。
- 泰格·伍兹的父亲厄尔·伍兹（Earl Woods），以高压指导将其塑造为高尔夫巨星。
- 碧昂丝的父母马修与蒂娜（Mathew & Tina Knowles），精细规划并运营“真命天女”及碧昂丝的个人事业。
这让很多父母产生误解：是不是必须通过极端高压的雕琢，才能把孩子培养成行业超级巨星？
埃丽卡明确表示，作为专业心理工作者，她绝不推荐这种模式。她指出，这类严苛父母中不少人存在自恋甚至虐待行为。将父母自身的渴望、需求和野心强行投射在孩子身上，不仅剥夺了孩子真实自我的空间，本质上是一种情感上的自恋式虐待：
- 给孩子最好的礼物，是将他们视为一个独一无二、真实的独立个体，而不是父母的“迷你版”（mini-me）。
- 一旦父母试图全面规划并掌控（architecting）孩子的人生，极大概率会在情感上彻底失去这个孩子：孩子成年后可能会憎恨父母、遭遇极度失败的私人生活，或者反过来成为自恋型父母。
- 正确的引导方式是：当孩子在某项事物上展现出天赋，并且发自内心地热爱、具备主动向上的驱动力时，父母提供全力支持；但父母必须时刻自我反省，确保驱动前进的是孩子自己的意志，而非父母的虚荣心。
---
### [01:03:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3780s) 过去十年 ADHD 诊断与处方的爆炸式增长
在简短的赞助广告之后，访谈切入了核心议题——注意缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）。史蒂芬表示，即便不抛出具体问题，当下的现状也令人触目惊心：过去十年间，儿童被诊断为 ADHD 的比例以及相应的精神药物处方量呈现出爆炸式增长。
史蒂芬列举了来自英国的统计数据：
- 在 2000 年至 2018 年期间，英国的 ADHD 诊断率激增了大约 20 倍。
埃丽卡对此表示完全赞同，并以此为铺垫，准备深入剖析 ADHD 激增背后的神经压力机制与现代养育盲区。
### [01:03:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3806s) ADHD 诊断的爆发式增长与“战或逃”应激机制
节目开场抛出了一组令人震惊的流行病学数据：在 10 至 16 岁的男孩中，ADHD（注意缺陷多动障碍）的诊断率从过去的约 1% 激增至 2018 年的约 3.5%；而在 18 至 29 岁的成年男性群体中，同期 ADHD 处方药物的使用量更是暴增了近 50 倍。放眼整个美国，约有 1550 万成年人确诊 ADHD；每 9 名儿童中就有 1 人曾被确诊，目前的活跃确诊率高达 10.5%。主持人不禁发问：ADHD 的相关讨论与药物开具有如洪水般席卷了现代文化，这背后究竟发生了什么？
Erica Komisar 指出，正是目睹了 ADHD 诊断的爆炸式增长以及对年幼儿童极早进行药物治疗的乱象，促使她写下了《Being There》一书。她从人类进化与神经生物学的视角切入解释：当交感神经系统被激活时，人体会启动古老的“战或逃”（fight or flight）反应，这原本是面对剑齿虎等掠食者威胁时的生存本能——要么留下来殊死搏斗（战），要么拼命逃跑（逃）。
当现代儿童承受超出其承受上限的压力时，同样会进入这种极端的“战或逃”状态。所谓的“战”，表现为无法自我调节的侵略性行为：孩子在幼儿园或学校里打人、咬人、摔椅子，出现严重的社交与适应障碍；而所谓的“逃”，则表现为注意力分散、神游、走神和涣散。许多人误以为孩子只是“注意力不集中”或“调皮捣蛋”，却未意识到这是神经系统在压力超载下发出的求救信号。
- **10 至 16 岁男孩确诊率**：从约 1% 攀升至 2018 年的约 3.5%。
- **18 至 29 岁男性处方激增**：同阶段 ADHD 处方药开具量增长近 50 倍。
- **美国整体患病现状**：约 1550 万成年人确诊，约九分之一的儿童有确诊经历（当前确诊比例达 10.5%）。
- **应激行为的双重表征**：对抗型压力对应攻击行为（咬人、打架、砸椅子）；逃跑型压力对应注意力分散与认知游离。
---
### [01:05:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3922s) 杏仁核与婴儿大脑发育：过早激活的代价
Erica 深入解析了大脑应对压力的神经中枢——位于大脑深处呈杏仁状的原始结构“杏仁核”（Amygdala）。在生命最初的一到三年内，杏仁核在健康发育状态下本应保持“离线”（offline）或静默状态。这也正是人类母亲自古将婴儿贴身背负、让婴儿在头三年紧随身侧的生理学原因：母亲的存在如同一道安全屏障，能让婴儿的杏仁核免受惊扰，并以“微小、可消化的分量”循序渐进地引导孩子感知和消化挫折与压力，母亲在其中扮演着“压力消化器”的角色。
然而，现代社会的诸多育儿实践彻底打破了这一保护机制。过早将婴儿送入充斥着陌生人的全日托儿所、严酷的“睡眠训练”（Sleep Training）、任由婴儿哭泣不予理睬（Cry-it-out）以及长时间的母婴分离，都在让婴儿脆弱的杏仁核被“过早激活”（precociously activated）。过早承受不可承受的高压会导致皮质醇等压力荷尔蒙泛滥，杏仁核在超负荷运转下急剧肥大增生；更可怕的后果在于，它最终会因过度损耗而萎缩、耗竭，彻底丧失正常功能，造成终身不可逆的调节障碍。
Erica 形象地将婴儿大脑中的杏仁核比作家庭中最珍贵的“传家宝”（family jewels），必须严加呵护。在婴儿期将脆弱的孩子丢入高压环境，无异于在幼年期制造类似创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的生理印记，摧毁其未来的神经调节弹性。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 婴儿杏仁核早期超载与发育损伤机制
accDescr: 展示母亲在场保护与过早分离高压对杏仁核发育的不同走向
subgraph Healthy["自然健康发展路径"]
A["母婴贴身陪伴 (0-3岁)"] --> B["杏仁核保持静默/离线"]
B --> C["微量挫折逐步消化"]
C --> D["稳固的情绪调节中枢"]
end
subgraph StressPath["早期应激损伤路径"]
E["过早入托 / 睡眠训练 / 长期分离"] --> F["杏仁核过早被暴力激活"]
F --> G["皮质醇激增，杏仁核异常肥大"]
G --> H["结构萎缩与功能耗竭 (类似 PTSD)"]
end
```
---
### [01:07:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4065s) 剥离“D”标签：ADHD 是一种应激反应而非疾病
长期处于这种高度警觉应激状态（hypervigilant state of stress）的孩子，神经系统随时准备应对虚构的猛兽。然而，没有任何神经系统能够无限期承受过度警觉；一旦这种紧绷状态持续过久，个体便会滑入“低警觉状态”（hypovigilant state），进而演化为抑郁症。Erica 强调，医学界曾有学者呼吁拿掉 ADHD 中的“D”（Disorder，障碍），因为它根本不是一种先天器质性缺陷或器质性疾病，而是一种神经系统对环境压力的自然适应与应激反应。
大脑的应激系统本有一开一关两个旋钮：杏仁核是“开启键”，负责激活战斗或逃跑；海马体（Hippocampus）则是“关闭键”，通过负反馈回路平息应激反应，确保压力仅限于短期的急性应对，而非长期的慢性折磨。但在许多被确诊为 ADHD 的儿童大脑中，神经影像学显示出一种严重的失衡：负责报警的杏仁核异常庞大，而负责刹车的海马体却异常弱小。Erica 借用阿波罗登月计划的名言警示道：“休斯敦，我们遇到麻烦了（Houston, we have a problem）”——大脑的神经机制变成了“全速轰油门、毫无刹车系统”。
学校中愈演愈烈的学生攻击行为与纪律问题，正是这种应激系统失衡的直接体现。面对这种危机，主流做法往往是急于通过精神类药物压制症状，Erica 严厉谴责这种应对方式是“医疗不当”（malpractice）。给孩子服药并没有真正解决问题，只是封住了孩子痛苦呼救的嘴巴。家庭关系、校园霸凌、学习障碍以及社交挫败都可能是触发“战或逃”的应激源，不去深究深层病因却盲目喂药，无异于掩耳盗铃。
---
### [01:10:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4232s) “难以面对的真相”与日常隐形压力源
主持人顺势抛出了两个尖锐的核心疑问：首先，如何确信这一切的根源确实是压力？其次，如果真是压力所致，那是否意味着一个残酷而令人尴尬的真相——父母才是导致孩子患上 ADHD 的始作俑者？
Erica 毫不避讳地承认：“是的，这确实是令人难以面对的真相（the inconvenient truth）。”尽管对于学龄期儿童而言，校园环境、社交霸凌等外部因素不可控，但在孩子婴幼时期，父母本身就是孩子的全部外部环境。因此，当孩子拿到 ADHD 诊断书时，父母的首要任务绝不是慌忙把孩子扭送给精神科医生开药，而是夫妻双方共同寻求家庭心理咨询与育儿指导（parent guidance），深入剖析是哪些心理社会压力源（psychosocial stressors）将孩子逼进了绝境。
Erica 随后列举了现代家庭中司空见惯、却对孩子极具杀伤力的日常压力源：
- **过早入托**：过早将婴儿送入日托机构，过早唤醒应激系统，使孩子陷入无法关闭的过度警觉。
- **父母离异与家庭破裂**：社会上约 50% 的伴侣走向离婚，离异对孩子而言无异于重大逆境（即使妥善处理也必然产生震荡）。
- **家庭暴力与激烈争吵**：父母在家庭内部爆发戏剧性的严重冲突，破坏孩子的安全基地。
- **二胎降生与忽视**：弟妹的出生是极度高压的事件，若父母对大孩子的心理落差缺乏感知力与包容心，将造成持久的情感重创与兄弟姐妹竞争。
- **生活剧变与家庭健康问题**：搬家迁居、父母患病、父母一方存在抑郁等精神疾病，以及酗酒、成瘾等问题。
- **亲人离世**：祖父母、叔伯甚至父母本人的重病与死亡。
Erica 总结道，压力本身不可避免，但它是可以被调节与缓冲的。前提是父母必须具备高度的反思能力与自我觉察，勇敢审视自己在其中的角色与家庭动力，而不是推卸责任，把孩子推给精神科医生留下一句“帮我修好我的孩子”。
### [01:13:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4420s) 遗传神话的破除：ADHD、抑郁与表观遗传机制
讨论一开始，埃里卡·科米萨尔（Erica Komisar）对通过药物压制孩子痛苦的做法提出了严厉警告。她打比方说，靠药物让孩子保持安静，就像用手指去堵大坝的裂缝（"putting your finger in a dike"），这种压制终究无法持久，水坝迟早会彻底决堤崩溃。针对主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提出的疑问——双胞胎研究表明注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）的遗传率高达 74% 至 80%，常被视作遗传影响最显著的精神类疾病之一——埃里卡给出了截然不同的专业剖析。
埃里卡明确指出，精神分裂症（Schizophrenia）和双相情感障碍（Bipolar disorder）确实已被证实具有直接的基因关联，但 ADHD、抑郁症和焦虑症却不存在直接的“致病基因先兆”。父母患有抑郁症，孩子更容易得抑郁症，这种现象本质上属于“获得性特征的遗传”（inheritance of acquired characteristics）——孩子是在被抑郁父母抚养的真实互动环境中，耳濡目染吸收了应对压力的方式，属于典型的“先天与后天”（nature vs. nurture）问题，而非单纯的基因注定。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 基因易感性与早期环境交互机制
accDescr: 展示血清素受体短等位基因在不同育儿环境下如何导致ADHD或健康成长的表观遗传分支图
subgraph GENETIC["先天基因特征"]
G1["血清素受体短等位基因"] --> G2["对压力与环境高度敏感"]
end
subgraph NURTURE["第一年养育环境（表观遗传学开关）"]
G2 --> ENV_GOOD["充满共情、身心临在的母婴依恋"]
G2 --> ENV_BAD["忽视、冷漠、创伤或高压分离"]
end
subgraph OUTCOME["最终生理与心理表征"]
ENV_GOOD --> RES_HEALTH["敏感基因表达被中和<br/>成长为健康、富有感知力的个体"]
ENV_BAD --> RES_ILLNESS["基因表达被激活与放大<br/>长期战或逃反应，表现为 ADHD / 焦虑"]
end
```
---
### [01:14:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4496s) 血清素“敏感基因”：父母第一年临在的关键中和作用
埃里卡进一步深入解释了科学界真正发现的生理线索：它并非某种“ADHD 基因”，而是一种“敏感基因”（sensitivity gene），即血清素受体上的短等位基因（short allele on the serotonin receptor）。血清素负责调节正面情绪与情绪平稳，携带短等位基因的个体在摄取和利用血清素上更为吃力，这使得神经系统在面对外部压力时显得格外敏感。
决定这种敏感性是转化为天赋还是演变成心理疾病的关键，正是表观遗传学（Epigenetics）。埃里卡强调，基因就像类风湿性关节炎或癌症的易感基因一样，需要特定的后天环境去“唤醒”或“开启”。突破性的依恋研究证实：
- **敏感与安全依恋相遇**：如果携带敏感基因的婴儿在出生第一年，获得了父母在情感上和身体上高度临在、细致入微且充满共情的依恋照料，这种基因的病理表达就会被彻底中和（neutralized）。这些孩子长大后与普通人一样健康稳定。
- **敏感遭遇情感忽视**：反之，若敏感儿童经历早期情感忽视、母婴分离或高压环境，该基因不仅会被激活，其脆弱性还会被进一步恶化（exacerbated），最终在成年后演变成 ADHD、焦虑症或抑郁症。
---
### [01:17:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4624s) 神经影像学与“敏感儿童”的真实生理特征
针对许多人援引功能性磁共振成像（fMRI）以及脑电图来佐证“ADHD 患者的大脑结构天生与众不同”，埃里卡给予了理性驳斥。她承认现代神经影像技术令人赞叹，能动态捕捉血流与电活动，但这绝不意味着大脑是“生来就有缺陷的机器”；相反，扫描呈现的恰恰是一个对环境压力处于过度警觉状态的脑部反应。许多确诊成年人挂在嘴边的“我的大脑结构就是这么运转的”，本质上是神经系统在面对压力时的应激模式。
如果向患有 ADHD 的人追溯童年，埃里卡指出几乎毫无例外都能找到“高度敏感儿童”的痕迹。这类儿童具有极其鲜明的身心反应特征：
- **感知高度敏锐**：对噪音、异味、衣物面料（极度抗拒粗糙或发痒的标签与衣料）以及身体触碰格外敏感。
- **安抚与分离极度困难**：婴儿期哭闹更为频繁，需要极其漫长的时间才能被安抚平静；具有强烈的黏人倾向，极度抗拒父母离家、外出工作或入读托儿所。
- **睡眠分离焦虑严重**：难以独自入睡，无法忍受独自留在黑暗房间。
埃里卡特别指出：“如果能得到相称的敏锐呵护，敏感原本是一种了不起的优势与天赋。”然而，一旦这种高度敏感的神经系统被扔进争吵不休的家庭、过早托育或充满冷漠的高压环境，ADHD 便成了大脑在重压下的必然代偿反应。
---
### [01:19:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4755s) 兴奋剂药物的暗面、社会绩效压力与深入心理剖析
巴特利特追问，现实中许多成年人在 30 岁时确诊 ADHD 并服用兴奋剂类药物（Stimulants），生活和工作效率显著提升，这难道不算是救命稻草吗？埃里卡坦言，如果已经尝试了所有方式去探寻诱发压力的根源仍无改善，药物偶尔确能救急；但兴奋剂所隐藏的身体与心理代价正被整个社会所忽视。
埃里卡根据长达数十年的临床经验指出，兴奋剂类药物在青少年中极易引发严重的焦虑障碍与恐慌发作（panic attacks），甚至会导致严重的生长发育迟缓。她接诊过许多成年年轻男性患者，其身材矮小的直接诱因就是幼年时期长期服用兴奋剂。现代社会正将 ADHD 药物当成一种为了应付学业与职场竞争的“绩效兴奋剂”（performance drug）。从激烈的学业升学、完美主义内卷到职场晋升，年轻一代背负着空前的压力：
> “ADHD 就像是一个大垃圾桶，所有那些从未得到过处理的焦虑患者，统统被倒进了这个桶里。”
更糟糕的是，社会充斥着追求表面化“快餐式解决”的风气，大家崇尚药物或短期认知行为疗法（CBT）。但要真正治愈，必须通过深入的动力学心理治疗，直面那些未曾化解的丧失、创伤以及让神经系统陷入长期“战或逃”模式的根本成因，这需要极大的勇气、挫折承受力以及深度的自我审视。
---
### [01:21:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4911s) 抑郁与焦虑的本质定义：对“丧失”的执念与童年创伤（ACEs）
为了厘清心理症结，埃里卡对抑郁与焦虑给出了精辟的临床定义：
- **抑郁（Depression）**：是对“过去已经发生的丧失”的过度沉溺与执念（preoccupation with past losses）。
- **焦虑（Anxiety）**：是对“未来可能根本不会发生的丧失”的过度担忧与预演（preoccupation with future losses that may never occur）。
二者的底层逻辑完完全全围绕着“丧失”（loss）。现代人之所以如此普遍地陷入焦虑与抑郁，正是因为过度沉溺于表面的名利、金钱、地位与虚荣，却失去了真正赋予生命价值的核心要素——深度的人际关系、家庭、爱、真诚联结与健康。埃里卡援引一项令人沮丧的青少年调查指出，如今大部分孩子人生最大的愿望竟然仅仅是“出名”，全社会都在为错误的目标焦虑抓狂。
在探讨压力与 ADHD 的具体数据联系时，巴特利特补充了来自权威机构的童年逆境经历（ACEs, Adverse Childhood Experiences）研究：在总分为 10 项的童年创伤问卷中，只要经历过 4 种或更多创伤经验（ACE 得分 $\ge 4$）的孩子，其被父母报告确诊为 ADHD 的概率高达对照组的近 4 倍（即激增了 400%）。这一严谨的数据有力呼应了埃里卡的核心主张——所谓的 ADHD，根本上是神经系统在童年重大压力与情感创伤下的应激病理反应。
### [01:23:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5032s) 童年不良经历（ACEs）与多动症的风险关联
不良童年经历（Adverse Childhood Experiences, 简称 ACEs）与注意缺陷与多动障碍（ADHD）之间存在着触目惊心的统计学关联。与没有任何 ACE 经历的儿童相比，多项社会与家庭环境压力会大幅推高患病概率：社会经济困顿（socioeconomic hardship）会使儿童患 ADHD 的概率增加 40%；父母离异（parental divorce）增加 35%；家庭成员患有精神心理疾病（familial mental illness）会使其飙升至近 55% 到 60%；身处社区暴力（neighborhood violence）环境增加近 50%；而父母被监禁服刑（familial incarceration）同样会增加约 40% 的患病概率。
埃丽卡·科米萨（Erica Komisar）强调，父母必须认清一个现实：你无法掌控所有可能降临在孩子身上的变故。离婚可能会发生，突发的逆境和健康疾患也可能不期而至。但父母唯一能够绝对掌控、也至关重要的核心抓手，就是在孩子生命最初的三年里，尽可能全心全意地陪伴在他们身旁，为他们筑牢心理底色。
- 社会经济困顿：ADHD 患病风险增加 40%
- 父母离异：ADHD 患病风险增加 35%
- 父母患有精神疾病：ADHD 患病风险增加近 55%~60%
- 社区暴力环境：ADHD 患病风险增加近 50%
- 父母入狱服刑：ADHD 患病风险增加约 40%
---
### [01:24:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5087s) 超市尖叫与情绪崩溃：如何科学应对孩子的失控
针对许多育儿建议中常见的“孩子在超市大哭大闹时直接走开不管”或是“父母也跟着尖叫以毒攻毒”的做法，史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向埃丽卡求证：当孩子失控咆哮时，大人到底该狠心忽视，还是放下手头的一切去迎合他们？埃丽卡打趣地回应：“史蒂文，把我的号码设成紧急快捷拨号吧。”两人旋即开启了一段幽默的拉扯，史蒂文笑着接话：“您说话可得小心，我真会打的。录像全拍下来了，具有法律效力——您真愿意为了养我的孩子放弃自己的事业吗？”埃丽卡也毫不示弱地笑问：“那得看你开多少报酬了！”
玩笑过后，埃丽卡给出了严肃的育儿准则：**绝对不要对孩子吼叫**。一个能进行健康情绪调节的父母，才能养育出健康的孩子。所谓健康的父母，是内心具备真实良好的自尊（而非虚妄的自大狂妄），清晰了解自身的优势与局限，并且能够保持情绪稳定，犹如“在加勒比海风平浪静地航行”，即便身处风暴中也能镇定自若。当孩子在超市指着货架哭喊“我要那包糖果”时，父母最容易犯的错误就是立刻生硬地拒绝（“你不能吃”），这会瞬间引爆对抗。
埃丽卡指出，在进行任何纪律管教（discipline）之前，**第一步永远必须是共情（empathy）**。这被称为“育儿第一课（Parenting 101）”。父母需要像镜子一样映照出孩子的情绪：孩子悲伤时映照悲伤，愤怒时说“我看到你很生气”，孩子开心时也共同体会快乐。这种映照能让孩子感受到自己作为一个独立人格被认可、被重视。面对要糖的孩子，正确的做法是先共情：“我看到你真的很想要那包糖果，得不到它你一定觉得很难受。但是，饭前不能吃零食，你知道这是家里的规矩。”当孩子继续哭闹时，父母应采用“复读机式沟通（broken record communication）”，温柔且坚定地不断重复：“我知道这真的很不容易，但现在依然不能吃。”父母要在共情与确立界限（structure）之间形成稳定的正循环：共情、立界限、再共情、再立界限。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 管教儿童情绪失控的沟通循环模型
accDescr: 展现从情绪镜映、设立边界到复读机式稳定坚持的循环过程
A["孩子情绪失控 / 提出不合理要求<br>（例如在超市哭闹要糖）"] --> B["第一步：情绪映照与共情<br>（'我看到你很想要，我知道这很难受'）"]
B --> C["第二步：温和确立规则边界<br>（'但饭前不能吃，这是规矩'）"]
C --> D{"孩子是否继续哭闹？"}
D -- "是" --> E["复读机式沟通循环<br>保持在场：共情 + 坚持结构界限"]
E --> B
D -- "否" --> F["孩子感到被理解，情绪逐步平复"]
```
---
### [01:28:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5299s) 大写“T”创伤与小写“t”创伤：不被看见的隐形心理伤害
当史蒂文询问自己是否属于“受创伤的孩子”时，埃丽卡借此深入剖析了当今社会被泛滥使用却常被误解的概念——“创伤（Trauma）”。她将其划分为两大范畴：**大写 T 创伤（Big T trauma）**与**小写 t 创伤（Little T trauma）**。
大写 T 创伤具有极高的可见度和具象性，通常是显而易见的剧烈事件，例如遭遇严重车祸导致截肢、经历强奸、父母早逝（如母亲死于脑癌），或是父亲酗酒施暴等恶性事件。这类创伤由于有清晰的外部事件依托，很容易被人识别和承认。
然而，埃丽卡指出，现实中遭受大写 T 创伤的往往只是少数，绝大多数人经受的其实是**小写 t 创伤**。这种创伤极度微妙、隐蔽，往往根植于家庭内部的人际互动细节（relational nuances）之中：
- **微小的隐性忽视（subtle neglect）**：父母虽然在物质上提供了丰衣足食，但从未真正倾听过孩子；
- **自恋型父母（narcissistic parents）**：父母极其以自我为中心，无法理解孩子作为独立个体的精神世界；
- **未被察觉的精神问题**：例如母亲患有隐性抑郁症，早晨无法起床为孩子准备早餐，孩子只能自己默默照顾自己；
- **钥匙儿童（latchkey kid）**：放学回家面对空无一人的房屋，长期处于孤立与冷清中。
许多走入心理诊室的成年人常感到困惑和内疚：“我的父母没有离婚，家庭物质充裕，我从小什么都不缺，也没有遭遇过重大变故，我到底为什么会抑郁、焦虑甚至出现 ADHD 症状？”埃丽卡告诉他们，正是因为缺少对微观人际关系的审视，社会大众往往忽视了这种关系层面的慢性创伤。正因为缺乏外界的社会认同与支持，背负小写 t 创伤的人群往往承受着难以言说的内在痛苦与挣扎。
---
### [01:31:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5509s) 托儿所的隐藏代价与依恋对象的不可替代性
在诸多童年早期经历中，**托儿所（Daycare）**对低龄幼儿造成的依恋创伤尤为严重。部分患者甚至能清晰回忆起四五岁之前的痛苦闪回记忆：“我只记得被送进托儿所时，自己拼了命地尖叫哭喊着找妈妈。”埃丽卡明确表示，她绝不支持过早将婴儿送入托儿所。
科学研究表明，将婴幼儿送入托儿所会显著提高他们唾液中的皮质醇（salivary cortisol）水平，这意味着婴儿在脑部发育的最关键阶段，长期被置于高度应激与慢性压力的生理状态下。长期追踪研究表明，过早进入托儿所的孩子，在步入适龄学童期后表现出更高比例的攻击性、焦虑倾向和行为障碍，并且更容易发展出依恋障碍。在出生后的前三年，孩子处于生命中最脆弱、最敏感的窗口期，将他们从主要依恋对象的怀抱中剥离，交由陌生人连续看管数小时，会强迫幼儿为了自我保护而过早发展出病理性的心理防御机制。
在照料方式的谱系中，托儿所属于“最不理想的选择”。正如大众普遍认同“母乳喂养最好（breast is best）”一样，在育儿照料上，**最好的方式是在最初三年尽可能由主要依恋对象亲身陪伴**。史蒂文随即追问，这是否意味着主要依恋对象只能是母亲？埃丽卡澄清道，父亲同样可以胜任这一角色。主要依恋对象的本质是一个“能敏锐感知并充满共情滋养的核心依靠”，当婴儿陷入恐慌与痛苦时，能够即时满足其情感需求。然而，埃丽卡也坦言，这种高度敏锐、细腻的共情滋养特质对大多数男性而言并非与生俱来的本能，绝大多数父亲必须经过专门的学习与适应才能掌握，只有极少数男性天生比妻子更具备这种细腻的育儿直觉。
### [01:33:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5611s) 进化本能与育儿分工：父亲、母亲与同性伴侣的角色定型
埃里卡·科米萨（Erica Komisar）指出，虽然某些父亲可能比母亲更敏感，但在总体进化本能上，父亲并非天生敏感、共情的抚育者。她打了一个生动的比方：如果把人放在非洲大草原上比作高角羚（impala），刚出生的小羚羊落地就能奔跑，羚羊爸爸会紧跟在身后催促：“快跑，小家伙！再不跑你就要沦为狮子的午餐了！”这就是父亲以保护性攻击（protective aggression）为主导的本能；而母羚羊的本能则是走上前舔舐摔倒的幼崽，抚慰它、给予拥抱。父亲固然可以被教会成为主要依恋对象，但前提是社会必须正视男女之间的生物学差异，而不是盲目认为两性完全一样。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 互补型育儿角色模型
accDescr: 展示母亲角色与父亲角色在育儿中的不同功能与互补机制
subgraph Roles ["互补型双轨育儿"]
direction LR
subgraph MotherRole ["母职功能 (Mother Figure)"]
M1["敏感共情与情绪镜像"]
M2["肌肤接触与即时安抚"]
end
subgraph FatherRole ["父职功能 (Father Figure)"]
F1["打闹玩耍与触觉刺激"]
F2["鼓励探索与承受风险"]
end
end
Child["建立安全、清晰的心理依恋"]
MotherRole --> Child
FatherRole --> Child
```
如果让全职爸爸带娃而母亲外出工作，就必须坦诚地训练父亲掌握“母亲技能”：当婴儿哭泣时，父亲必须学会镜像映射婴儿的情绪、做肌肤接触并温柔安抚，而不是习惯性地转移婴儿注意力、过早逼迫孩子坚强，或者用“你没事，别哭了”这种与婴儿真实感受相悖的情绪去应对。
在咨询中，埃里卡也会直言不讳地向同性伴侣提出尖锐问题。当两位男同性恋伴侣前来咨询时，她会直截了当地问：“你们俩谁来扮演母亲的角色？”她承认这在当今语境下显得“政治不正确”，但坚信孩子绝不能拥有两个父亲角色或两个母亲角色——孩子的心智发育需要一个代表敏感共情的母亲形象，以及一个代表触觉刺激、鼓励探索的父亲形象。当被问及两位伴侣能否各分担一半的角色时，埃里卡坚决否定，指出这种模糊的身份切换会让孩子极度困惑。“我既当妈又当爹”的说法并不符合儿童心理发展，如果缺乏母亲，祖母或住家保姆也可以充当这个关键的长期母职依托。
- **父亲的进化本能**：以警觉、保护性攻击和推动独立为主，天生不同于母亲温和的共情抚育。
- **全职父亲的必修课**：必须学会情绪镜像（mirroring emotions）和即时舒缓，切忌使用错位情绪（discrepant emotions）敷衍婴儿。
- **同性家庭的角色划分**：无论家庭构成如何，孩子都需要清晰分明的“母职功能”（安抚与共情）与“父职功能”（打闹、体能刺激与探索风险）。
---
### [01:36:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5804s) 经济支柱母亲的困局与“育儿不是竞技运动”
主持人展示了一组数据：1960年，仅有约十分之一的母亲是家庭唯一的首要经济支柱（sole primary breadwinner）；而到了2016年，这一比例已逼近一半。这意味着大量女性承担着养家重任，无法简单地辞职回家。埃里卡表示，她在临床中接触过无数为此痛苦的母亲，她们向丈夫提出想要辞职、缩减工作或转为兼职，却遭到丈夫的强烈反对，因为婚前双方曾约定由女方担任主要养家者，如今丈夫无法接受放弃高薪收入的代价。
埃里卡告诫年轻人，婚前千万不要轻易向伴侣许诺“有了孩子后生活一切照旧”。生孩子会触发深刻的进化与心理转变，谁也无法预料自己看到孩子的那一刻是否会陷入无法割舍的母爱本能。年轻夫妻应当提前做好“万事皆变”的策略准备：如果母亲产后想要留在家中母乳喂养，家庭该如何在物质消费和生活方式上主动降级？
她进一步剖析，现代婚姻之所以频繁爆发冲突甚至走向破裂，核心根源在于两性之间无休止的“竞争”。过去的传统角色固然存在弊端，但清晰的分工避免了竞争内耗；如今在性别中立与“平起平坐”的口号下，夫妻不仅在职场收入上一较高下，还在育儿事务中争抢话语权。埃里卡借用商业管理类比道：一家公司不可能设立两个平起平坐的联席首席执行官（Co-CEOs），这种架构往往走向瓦解；企业需要 CEO、总裁、CFO 和 COO 各司其职、互补合作。
> “育儿是一项团队运动，而不是一项竞技运动……把你们的好胜心留到网球场、篮球场或公园跑步中去，绝不要在抚育孩子和赚钱多少上相互攀比竞争。”
- **社会结构巨变**：家庭首要经济支柱母亲的比例从1960年的10%飙升至近年近50%。
- **生活方式的主动降级（Downscale）**：夫妻应预先商讨若一方希望回归家庭时的经济减负方案，而非盲目承诺“一切不会变”。
- **婚姻治理的组织逻辑**：将夫妻视为分工明确的高管团队，互补互助，切忌在育儿权与收入上将家庭变成争名夺利的赛场。
---
### [01:41:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6075s) 事业型母亲的现实抉择与“高质量时间”的自恋幻象
针对那些身处高压领导岗位、在职场中雄心勃勃却同样渴望生育的现代女性，埃里卡坦言这是一剂苦口良药（inconvenient truth）：从现实角度来看，某些要求极高的高管或精英职业，客观上极难让人成为一名合格的母亲。这项残酷法则对父母双方同样成立——一个常年在全球出差、频繁缺席孩子生日、足球比赛与钢琴独奏会，早晚无法陪孩子进餐的首席执行官父亲，同样不可能与子女建立起健康深厚的情感联结。
埃里卡在此毫不留情地戳破了当代育儿领域最流行的一个借口——所谓“陪伴质量胜过陪伴数量”（quality versus quantity time）。她直斥：
> “‘高质量时间’纯粹是一种自恋的幻想（Quality time is a narcissistic fantasy）。”
在她看来，孩子不是摆在柜台上静止不动、随时等待父母抽空光顾的花瓶。父母不能自以为是地以为，只要在自己方便的时刻给孩子半小时“全情投入的互动”，就能弥补一整天的缺席。孩子的心灵需要全天候不间断的情感支撑，他们的脆弱和需求是在一整天的细碎时刻里随机爆发的。父母唯有在孩子需要的时间出现在身边，而不是在自己腾出空隙的时间进行“仪式化陪伴”，才能真正构建稳固的安全依恋。
### [01:43:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6194s) 适合主要依恋者的职业与“生活建筑师”之辩
埃丽卡·科米萨（Erica Komisar）开门见山地指出，陪伴孩子的“时间量”与“时间质”缺一不可。她常对父母们强调一个冷酷却真实的物理法则：“你完全可以在身体上陪在孩子身边，但情感上心不在焉；可如果你连身体都无法足够多地在场，你根本不可能做到情感上的充分投入。”因此，想要担任主要依恋角色的父母，必须审慎选择自己的职业形态。最理想的领域往往具备极高的自主掌控权，使父母能够围绕孩子的需求来安排工作，而非强迫孩子去适应大人的忙碌节奏——例如物理治疗、心理治疗、言语治疗等服务类行业，或是咨询顾问及自主创业等时间弹性的职业。
当史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）追问像播客主、投资人或各类企业创始人能否胜任时，埃丽卡并不认同这些身份必然会牺牲育儿。她坚信关键在于人们是否愿意为自己设定清晰的边界。她以印象派大师莫奈（Claude Monet）为例：绝大多数画家往往要在离世后才能成名，而莫奈在生前便享誉世界，但他依然保持着极为克制的工作节奏——清晨起床捕捉光线作画，下午三四点便收工回家与家人共进晚餐。埃丽卡直言：“我们每个人都是自己生活的建筑师。”
- **在场原则**：身体在场并不必然带来情感投入，但缺乏物理在场，情感连结绝无可能发生。
- **理想职业特征**：自主排期、以服务为导向、能围绕孩子的作息构建弹性工作日程。
- **莫奈的隐喻**：卓越的事业成就与陪伴家庭并非水火不容，核心在于主动设定工作界限。
---
### [01:44:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6288s) 现实的残酷与界限的权衡：底层困境与单亲保姆的抉择
史蒂文随即代表普通大众提出了尖锐的质疑，反对这种略带理想主义的精英叙事。他坦白了自己的真实经历：18岁从大学退学时，他身背两张法院判决债务记录（CCJs），穷困潦倒到靠偷超市食物果腹，打印了救济金申请表，只能靠在呼叫中心上夜班勉强支付房租；此时母亲也因他退学而与他断绝了往来。史蒂文坦言，如果当时自己意外有了孩子，“生活建筑师”的说辞根本无法引起共鸣，因为一个人在面对生存危机、连自己都喂不饱且毫无家庭支持的绝境下，根本没有选择弹性职业的从容。
埃丽卡承认避孕和避免过早生育固然是现实前提，但她更想强调的是：即使在极具挑战的经济状况下，父母依然拥有界限的掌控权。她在书中采访了大量不同社会阶层的女性，其中一位独自抚养三个孩子的单亲妈妈本身是一名全职保姆。这位保姆必须靠打工挣钱交房租，但她给自己立下了雷打不动的铁律：下午5点准时下班回家，拒绝一切夜间社交和周末玩乐，将工作之外的所有空闲时间百分之百留给孩子。孩子们心里很清楚母亲为了养家必须工作，但也深刻体会到母亲在业余时间对他们全心全意的专注与倾注。
- **生存底层的困境**：极端经济压力、缺乏亲属支持与单亲抚养，往往会剥夺父母规划职业弹性的自由。
- **时间的代偿策略**：即便必须全职工作，通过彻底放弃个人夜间社交和娱乐，也能在非工作时段为孩子构建高质量的情感壁垒。
- **透明的情感沟通**：让孩子理解“父母工作是为了养育家庭”，同时在相处时展现出绝对的专注，能有效缓解分离焦虑。
---
### [01:47:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6454s) 照护层级与三岁前的“平行游戏”神话
谈到替代照护的选择时，埃丽卡分享了那位保姆的做法：她从不把孩子送去托儿所（Daycare），而是付费委托亲密的好邻居照看，让这位邻居成为孩子生命中如同“阿姨”般的长久亲人。埃丽卡据此梳理了婴幼儿照料的优先层级：最理想的永远是第一依恋对象（通常是母亲）；次选是拥有拟似亲属纽带（Kinship bonds）的大家庭成员或亲近熟人，因为他们对孩子的福祉抱有类似父母的高度情感投入；而机构化的托儿所则是最次等的选择。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 婴幼儿照料优先层级与依恋探索机制
accDescr: 图表展示了从主要依恋对象到机构托儿所的照料层级，以及幼儿在安全感支持下进行情感再充电和探索的循环过程。
subgraph CareHierarchy["照料优先层级 (0-3岁)"]
A["主要依恋对象\n(母亲 / 父亲)"] --> B["亲属与拟似亲属\n(祖父母 / 亲密邻友)"]
B --> C["机构化托儿所\n(最不推荐)"]
end
subgraph ExplorationLoop["情感再充电机制 (Rapprochement)"]
D["安全感基石\n(母亲在视线/听觉范围内)"] --> E["向外探索与冒险\n(蹒跚学步 Toddle off)"]
E --> F["回头确认目光 / 跑回拥抱\n(情感再充电)"]
F --> E
end
```
针对“送托儿所能促进孩子早期社交”的普遍观念，埃丽卡直斥这是一个巨大的育儿神话。三岁之前的孩子在发育上根本不需要同龄玩伴，他们在物理上聚在一起时所做的仅仅是“平行游戏”（Parallel play）——各自玩耍而无真正的互动交流。幼儿在此阶段真正渴求的是与某一个成年人建立一对一的深度情感连接。埃丽卡强调，三岁前若要安排玩伴聚会，母亲必须始终处于孩子的目光可及或声音可闻的范围内。这就是心理学上的“情感再充电”（Rapprochement）：当孩子在母亲身上汲取了足够的情感安全感后，他们才会鼓起勇气蹒跚前行（Toddle off）去探索世界；在探索过程中，他们会频频回头确认“妈妈还在那里”，或者飞奔回来寻求一个拥抱，随后重新充满勇气地跑向未知。母亲正是孩子迈向勇敢探索的“安全试金石”。
- **照料层级排序**：第一依恋对象（最优） > 亲属与紧密社交网络（次优） > 托儿所机构。
- **平行游戏（Parallel Play）**：三岁前的儿童缺乏真正的同伴协作社交能力，强行推入集体环境无法替代一对一的情感满足。
- **情感再充电（Rapprochement）**：幼儿通过不断“远离探索—回头确认目光/索抱—再次出发”的循环建立真实的勇气与探索欲。
---
### [01:49:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6565s) 播客赞助：Zoe 肠道健康测试与 Whoop 无屏幕健康手环
在深入探讨儿童脑科学前，节目插播了赞助商内容。史蒂文首先介绍了肠道健康监测品牌 Zoe。肠道不仅是人体消化的中枢，更是整体健康的门户。Zoe 拥有全球庞大的微生物组数据库，提供涵盖臂贴式连续血糖传感器、家庭血液脂肪检测、著名的用于测试代谢水平的蓝色饼干（Blue Zoe cookie）以及肠道菌群粪便检测在内的整套方案。用户将样本寄回后，Zoe 会通过应用程序为个人量身定制饮食与营养方案，这正是史蒂文选择投资该公司的原因。
随后，史蒂文介绍了长期佩戴的健康追踪设备 Whoop。面对众多可穿戴竞品，史蒂文最看重的是 Whoop 的“非侵入性”与无屏幕设计。正如 Whoop 创始人威尔·艾哈迈德（Will Ahmed）在节目中所言，“屏幕等同于分心”。在日常会议与高强度健身时，无屏幕的 Whoop 能够在后台静默采集身体的各项生理数据，既不争夺佩戴者的注意力，又能在需要时提供精准的健康洞察。
---
### [01:51:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6683s) 为什么是三岁？右脑神经发生与85%的黄金塑造期
进入讨论的核心，史蒂文提出了一个关键问题：为什么心理学界和脑科学界总是将界限定在“三岁”？这背后究竟是神经可塑性的特殊机制在起作用，还是因为三岁前对孩子造成的隐形创伤具有某种不可逆性？
埃丽卡对此给出了明确的神经生物学解释。在大脑的社会情感发展过程中，存在着特定的“关键窗口期”（Critical periods），其中“零到三岁”是至关重要的黄金阶段。在此期间，大脑正在经历高强度的“神经发生”（Neurogenesis）——即脑细胞的大规模生长与神经回路连接。父母作为稳定依恋对象的陪伴，不仅为婴儿提供了安全庇护所，更起到了缓冲外界压力、协助调节婴儿脆弱情绪的生物学阀门作用。震撼的事实是：人类右脑（主管社会情绪、情感调节与压力应对的大脑半球）有高达 85% 的结构发育在三岁前就已彻底定型。父母在这一阶段的身体与情感在场，正在实质性地改变孩子大脑的物理架构。
- **三岁分水岭**：0-3岁是社会情感脑发育最核心的神经发生期（Neurogenesis）。
- **右脑发育占比**：人类负责情绪调控与依恋机制的右脑，约 85% 的发育在 3 岁前完成。
- **父母的神经缓冲器角色**：主要照护者的持续在场能阻断皮质醇对幼童神经元的毒性侵蚀，直接参与塑造其终身的情绪调节脑回路。
### [01:52:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6751s) 大脑发育的花园比喻与青春期的修剪
在社交酒会上，常有父母带着轻描淡写的态度对埃丽卡·科米萨尔（Erica Komisar）说：“我没必要总守在旁边，婴儿现在只会吃了睡、睡了拉，根本不需要我；等他们开始会走路、会说话了，我再多陪陪。”听到这种说法，埃丽卡总是斩钉截铁地反驳：“不！你们完全搞反了。”她解释道，父母恰恰必须在生命的最初三年全情陪伴，因为正是此时，大脑细胞正在经历爆炸式的生长。每当婴儿依偎在母亲怀里吃奶、与母亲目光交汇、或是聆听父母轻声哼唱时，数以百万计的突触正在疯狂放电连接。
埃丽卡用自家繁茂的花园打了个生动的比方：在三岁之前，大脑就像一个正在蓬勃盛开的花园，蔬菜和鲜花疯狂抽枝拔节，形成丰沛的大脑组织。三岁到九岁之间，大脑依然在生长，但节奏明显放缓，从最初的爆发性狂飙转为平缓的小幅度推进。随后便迎来了9岁至25岁的青春期阶段。
在青春期这个关键窗口，大脑必须对早期的突触连接进行“修剪”（pruning）。如果不把多余、未被激活的细胞修剪掉，对大脑造成的损害绝不亚于最初没有充分生长。在这两大关键阶段中，外部环境直接决定了神经细胞是生长还是被修剪：
- **0至3岁（第一窗口）**：父母几乎就是孩子的全部环境（“Tag, you're it”），父母的即时回应直接塑造神经元网络。
- **9至25岁（第二窗口）**：父母依然是极其重要的环境组成，但孩子开始融入学校、同龄社交以及社交网络。
如果在第一窗口筑牢了神经根基，孩子在步入风暴般残酷的青春期时，便拥有了坚实的内在心理资源，去对抗学业、同伴关系和社交媒体带来的巨大压力。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 大脑发育的关键窗口阶段
accDescr: 描述0至3岁神经细胞爆发、3至9岁平缓增长以及9至25岁修剪突触的发展历程
subgraph EarlyStage["早期奠基阶段"]
A["0–3岁：爆发期<br/>（父母即全部环境，突触爆发式生长）"] --> B["3–9岁：平稳期<br/>（小幅度递增式生长）"]
end
subgraph AdolescentStage["重构与修剪阶段"]
B --> C["9–25岁：青春期修剪<br/>（修剪多余突触，整合内在心理资源）"]
end
```
---
### [01:55:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6913s) 青春期的“第二次机会”与物理陪伴法则
埃丽卡谈到了她的第二本书《少年自护力》（*Chicken Little, the Sky Isn't Falling: Raising Resilient Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety*）。她透露，这本书最初想定的书名其实是《第二次机会》（*Second Chances*），而第一本书《陪伴的力量》（*Being There*）最初想叫《迷失的本能》（*The Lost Instinct*）。即使在头三年有所缺失，父母在青春期依然拥有弥补的“第二次机会”。
然而，青春期的陪伴方式必须发生彻底转变。青少年一旦感到防御机制开启，最典型的举动就是“砰”地关上卧室房门，无声地宣告：“我的防御竖起来了，走开。”许多拼命工作的父母下班回家后，去敲孩子的房门说：“咚咚咚，我来陪你了，今天过得怎么样？”此时青少年的心门早就关得严严实实。
埃丽卡指出，父母必须在孩子房门**自发打开**的那一刻守候在那里：
- 孩子走出来拿零食、上洗手间，或是学习间歇出来透气时，如果父母正好在场，且处于随时可供交流的开放状态，沟通的通道才会顺势开启；
- 如果父母缺席，这扇门很快又会重新关闭。
这再次印证了核心铁律：“孩子需要你，是在他们需要的时候，而不是在你恰好有空的时候。”当然，错过窗口并非世界末日，大脑具有终身可塑性，受损的联结可以通过“修复”（repair）来弥补。但修复并不是天主教式的告解——不能在神父面前忏悔一句然后出去继续犯错；父母必须实实在在地改变自己的相处模式，放下自身的便利，用持久的耐受力去赢得孩子的好感，而不是继续把孩子往外推。
---
### [01:57:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7077s) 成年期创伤修复：为何唯有关系才能治愈关系
面对史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）提出的疑问——如果一个人已经三十岁，童年早期（0至10岁）遭受过严重创伤，成年后还能被治愈吗？埃丽卡给出了直击本质的回答：“一段关系造成的创伤，必须由另一段关系来修复。”
这也是为什么埃丽卡极力推崇动力取向心理治疗（Psychodynamic Psychotherapy）或精神分析治疗。很多人对心理咨询存在误解，以为咨询师说了一句多么精妙睿智的金句就能让人顿悟痊愈。埃丽卡幽默地调侃：“我也希望自己聪明到随口说一句话就能点石成金，让大家排队给我送几百万美元，但现实根本不是这样。”治疗的核心疗效并非来自高深莫测的解释，而是源于求助者与咨询师之间**长期、稳定、持续的关系本身**。在这一安全容器中，咨询师陪伴求助者经历生活的起伏，如实映照求助者的情绪体验，从而实现情感修复。
史蒂芬随即追问：这种修复能通过伴侣之间的亲密关系来达成吗？埃丽卡提醒道，用亲密关系疗伤伴随着巨大的危险：
- **过度情感负荷**：恋人不是心理咨询师，如果把童年丧失与内在冲突全盘倾泻给伴侣，极易将关系彻底压垮甚至破坏；
- **咨询室的安全容器功能**：专业的治疗关系是一个专门的容器，求助者可以毫无保留地放下防御，将痛苦宣泄并留在咨询室里，而维持世俗人际关系的健康平衡；
- **防御机制的等价置换**：精神分析绝对不会粗暴地剥夺一个人的防御机制。防御机制生来是为了自我保护，“就像你绝不能把踩在踩雷上的脚挪开，除非你手头有一块足够沉重的大石头能立刻压上去顶替它。”
埃丽卡总结道，治疗的过程就像是一场严谨的“置换”：只有当来访者在安全的关系中学会了更健康成熟的防御机制，他们才敢真正卸下童年为了生存而演练出的病理性防御，例如不再将焦虑当成索取关爱的唯一武器。
### [02:02:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7350s) 焦虑作为不健康的防御机制与童年创伤的整合
许多孩子频频向外界倾诉“我很焦虑、我很抑郁”，这在某种意义上成了他们博取关注的手段。埃丽卡（Erica Komisar）指出，尽管许多孩子确实饱受情绪折磨，但其中不少人仅仅是迫切需要父母理解自己。当孩子不断抱怨并陷入情绪崩溃时，这便构成了一种“不健康的心理防御机制”。其负面后果在于，长期的抱怨和焦虑会逐渐消磨家长的耐心，导致父母最终难以忍受而选择抽离和疏远。
更为成熟健康的应对方式，是教会孩子清晰且直接地向父母表达真实诉求，而非简单地宣称“我感到抑郁”。例如，孩子可以说：“爸爸妈妈，你们其实没有真正花时间陪我。就算在家里，你们也总盯着电脑和平板分心，对我并不真正上心。”埃丽卡强调，心理咨询的原则是“除非有更好的替代方案，否则绝不随意剥夺一个人的防御机制”；那种认为走进心理咨询室就会被彻底剥光武装、变得手足无措的看法，纯粹是对治疗的误解。
针对主持人提到的“防御心”（Defensiveness），埃丽卡解释这是一种不健康的防御反应，往往意味着触碰到了内在的痛点。当被问及“你是否有童年创伤”时，健康的状态是能够反思并接纳过去的得失（例如回答“我一时想不出来，也许有吧”）；相反，如果一个人激烈反弹地质问“绝对没有！你什么意思？”，或者对童年的悲伤或快乐只字不提、无法整合好与坏，甚至对童年经历讳莫如深，那就清楚表明其内心深处存在严重未解决的隐痛。
- **不健康的抱怨防御**：孩子通过焦虑表征呼唤关怀，但往往适得其反，使父母疲惫不堪并拉开距离。
- **健康表达的范式**：直接指出父母的“分心”与“缺席”，替代抽象的负面情绪宣泄。
- **创伤反思的健康指标**：具备内省能力，能够整合并坦然谈论童年经历中的美好与悲伤。
---
### [02:04:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7498s) 恋母/恋父情结与“父亲缺失”对亲密关系的影响
在文化中常被讨论的“恋父情结”（Daddy Issues），在心理学中对应着俄狄浦斯期（Oedipal development）的情感与性心理发展。在3至6岁期间，男孩通常会在心理上“爱上”母亲并渴望娶母亲为妻，同时对父亲产生竞争排斥（“爸爸快走开”）；小女孩则渴望成为父亲的掌上明珠，甚至希望母亲离开。埃丽卡强调，父母在此阶段需要具备足够的情感安全感，当男孩对亲密的父亲说“爸爸走开”时，父亲应当温和包容而非陷入抑郁或惩罚；母亲面对女儿的排斥时亦应如此。
异性父母是孩子人生中第一段浪漫情感的原型。若父亲在女孩童年时期彻底缺席，或者虽然身体在场但在情感上麻木疏离，女孩长大后往往会终其一生在异性身上苦苦追寻那种缺失的赞赏与父爱。这如同一个极度饥饿的人：“如果你饿了，别人给你一堆残羹冷炙，你也会毫不犹豫地吞下去。”
如果父亲不仅忽视孩子，甚至在孩子试图亲近时反复抽离或施加虐待，孩子便极容易陷入“神经症性强迫重复”（neurotic repetition）。受虐长大的女孩在成年后往往会不由自主地寻找同样具有虐待倾向的伴侣，因为在她的认知经验中，唯有这种扭曲痛苦的互动模式才被等同于“爱”。埃丽卡回忆自己在青年时期做寄宿社工的经历：那些遭受亲生父母严重身体虐待和忽视的孩子，依然极度渴望回到父母身边，因为在儿童的原始本能里，无论父母做出何种行为，那都是他们所理解的“爱”。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 俄狄浦斯期异性父母互动对成年关系的影响
accDescr: 展示3-6岁儿童在俄狄浦斯期与异性父母的情感互动如何塑造成年后的依恋与亲密关系模式。
subgraph OedipalStage ["3至6岁：俄狄浦斯发展期"]
A["异性父母是首个浪漫关系原型<br/>（男孩恋母 / 女孩恋父）"]
B{"异性父母的情感回应"}
A --> B
end
subgraph HealthyPath ["健康发展模式"]
C["父母提供安全接纳与边界"]
D["形成健全的情感认知与自尊"]
B -->|健康包容| C --> D
end
subgraph AbsentPath ["情感缺席 / 虐待模式"]
E["情感忽视或长期缺席"]
F["童年遭受虐待与忽视"]
G["情感饥渴：为换取关注委曲求全"]
H["强迫性重复：潜意识寻找虐待型伴侣"]
B -->|情感缺席| E --> G
B -->|施虐/遗弃| F --> H
end
```
---
### [02:08:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7738s) 当代男性的困境：被剥夺的目标感与性别角色的失衡
谈及年轻男性的现状，主持人列举了一组严峻的数据：在18至24岁的年轻男性中，近一年内没有任何性生活的比例已飙升至近31%，在约18年间几乎翻了一倍；在美国，男性自杀人数占所有自杀事件的近80%，其中45至64岁群体比例最高；全球范围内，自杀已成为年轻男性的首要死因之一；英国的调查同样显示，越来越多的男性感到生活绝望、毫无价值，在寻找意义与目标感上陷入泥潭。
埃丽卡对此直言，现代社会“剥夺了男性的目标与使命”。从演化生物学来看，男性的天然使命在于保护家庭、狩猎捕食以及提供生存资源。虽然女性权益的提升具有重要的积极意义，但在这个过程中，社会舆论和文化却伴随着对男性的贬低与轻蔑。作为两位儿子的母亲以及长期接诊年轻男性的心理治疗师，埃丽卡对此感受尤为强烈：大量年轻男性感到意志消沉、失去目标且被不断矮化。她批评现代激进女权主义在某些时刻演变成了一种报复性的情绪——“让我们贬低他们、排挤他们、将他们踩在脚下，证明谁才是掌控者”，这彻底背离了女权主义追求平衡的初衷。
这种角色逆转在教育与婚配市场上引发了更深层的结构性危机：
- **高等教育失衡**：大学本科及研究生阶段女性比例已超过60%。
- **婚配模式脱节**：统计表明男性倾向于与自身受教育水平相当或较低的女性结婚，而女性则主要倾向于选择与自身受教育水平相当或更高的男性（向上择偶）。
- **生物角色的错位**：作为哺乳动物，两性有着明确的本能分工。让男性长期留在家中哺育幼崽并非男性的哺乳本能，这种全盘的角色颠倒正在从根本上冲击男性的心理生态与生理健康。
### [02:12:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7947s) 催产素与睾酮的反比机制：家庭角色颠倒对性生活与心理的冲击
人体内催产素（Oxytocin）与睾酮（Testosterone）之间存在着严密的负相关反比关系——催产素水平越高，睾酮水平就越低。在哺乳动物的演化机制中，当母体全心全意哺育抚育幼崽时，本能上会排斥交配行为；对抚育的巨大精力投入必然会挤压对交配繁衍的渴望。然而在当今社会，女性进入职场像男性一样拼杀竞争，其体内的睾酮水平呈现上升态势；相反，回归家庭成为全职照料者的男性，其体内的睾酮水平则出现断崖式下跌。这种生理演化机制与现代社会分工的错位，正在对夫妻间的性生活造成严重打击。
埃莉卡·科米萨（Erica Komisar）直言不讳地指出，低睾酮直接导致男性出现勃起功能障碍和性欲减退，这正是伟哥（Viagra）、睾酮贴片和各类补充剂泛滥背后的生物学根源。从演化本能来看，让丈夫全职留在家中抚育幼儿是“违背自然本能的不便真相”（inconvenient truth）。当妻子从事高薪的银行投行或律师工作、浑身带着职场竞争的锋芒回到家中时，夫妻间的性吸引力往往荡然无存。人类社会在短短半个多世纪内彻底颠倒了性别分工，却天真地期望耗费数十万年演化而来的身体本能能在几十年里跟上节奏，但演化规律绝非如此运作。
睾酮的骤降还会直接诱发男性的抑郁情绪、性功能受损以及深沉的“无价值感”（purposelessness）。男性在生物本能上渴望扮演提供资源、保护家庭与狩猎的角色。埃莉卡分享了一个典型的临床个案：一位妻子的事业非常强势，在金融界身居要职，而留在家庭中承担照料角色的丈夫逐渐对妻子彻底丧失性趣；为了重新体会到自身的男子气概与男性角色，他最终选择出轨，寻找更为传统、柔和的女性来重获心理平衡。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 角色颠倒对男性激素与心理的影响机制
accDescr: 展示男性回归全职育儿后从激素变化到心理和婚姻危机的演变路径
subgraph Hormonal_Shift ["激素层面的演化错位"]
A["男性全职留家照料抚育"] --> B["催产素水平升高"]
B --> C["睾酮水平骤降"]
end
subgraph Psychological_Physical ["身心与功能影响"]
C --> D["性欲减退 / 勃起功能障碍"]
C --> E["演化价值感缺失 / 抑郁情绪"]
end
subgraph Relationship_Crisis ["亲密关系与婚姻后果"]
D --> F["性生活停滞与亲密裂痕"]
E --> F
F --> G["婚姻破裂或向外寻求男性角色认同"]
end
```
---
### [02:16:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8183s) 被偏袒的教育体系：小男孩的生理本能与ADHD的过度诊断
现代社会对男性本能的压抑不仅发生在成年人身上，更早早始于幼儿阶段。埃莉卡指出，现行的早期教育模式在制度上极度偏向女孩：学校要求幼儿长时间静坐、自主调节情绪、不得冲动、不得展现攻击性行为。然而，3至6岁的男孩正经历人生中一次剧烈的睾酮激增（surge of testosterone），他们体内充满充沛的体能，生物本能驱动着他们去户外奔跑、跳跃、打闹。
学校却强制把这些小男孩按在教室的“围圈时间”（circle time）里保持安静。当男孩因生理本能无法忍受长时间静坐时，教育系统便给他们贴上“行为问题”或“注意力缺陷多动障碍（ADHD）”的病理化标签。大量男孩被误诊多动症，其本质原因仅仅是“他们是正常的男孩”。迫使小男孩按照小女孩的模板去成长和表现，构成了童年期巨大的神经压力源，而这种病理标签一旦贴上，往往会伴随他们整个中小学阶段。
男孩与女孩的学习机制存在本质差异：男孩的专注力持续时间较短，期间必须穿插高强度的体力活动以释放能量。在优秀的传统男校中，教学节奏就像“在公园里遛狗”一样——学生专注听课30至45分钟，随后就必须去操场奔跑运动，全天通常设有多达4次课间休息；而女孩天生具备更好的静坐能力，睾酮水平低，不易产生狂躁的体力释放冲动。过早强加左脑学术训练，不仅剥夺了孩子玩耍的权利，更是将男孩硬塞进不合身的行为模具之中。
- **3至6岁的生理爆发期**：男孩在这个年龄段会迎来明显的睾酮激增，奔跑、跳跃与大动作运动是不可剥夺的神经发展需求。
- **注意力与运动交替节律**：男校行之有效的模式是“30-45分钟授课 + 高频次户外剧烈运动”，全天穿插多轮课间释放。
- **误诊的深远代价**：将正常的男性体能释放曲解为多动症和情绪失控，会形成跟随儿童直至青春期的负面心理烙印。
---
### [02:18:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8326s) 早期单性别教育与打破社会禁忌的坦诚沟通
针对这些系统性危机，主持人史蒂芬提问：“如果你是世界的最高决策者，你会如何改变这一现状？”埃莉卡明确主张：在儿童早期教育阶段全面实行“男女分校（单性别教育）”。科学证据显示，在无异性眼光的早期单性别环境中，儿童探索未知领域的风险承受力显著提高——男孩更愿意放下防备去尝试艺术、绘画与音乐，不用担心被嘲笑不够阳刚；而女孩在没有男孩抢先表现的压力下，更敢于在数学、科学和STEM领域展露头角。
针对成年男性的低睾酮与心理危机，埃莉卡指出当务之急是“打破沉默，公开探讨”。社会长久以来对让男性全职育儿可能付出的生理代价避而不谈。在人类历史演化中，男性的自尊几乎完全建立在具有明确意义的外部工作与保护家庭之上；女性的自尊来源则相对多元，涵盖职场成就、亲职养育与深度的人际关系网络。当社会强行夺走男性的传统支柱，将他们圈定在纯粹的室内照护角色中时，睾酮下降与精神抑郁便成了一种必然代价。
夫妻之间亟需展开极其诚实的沟通，直面角色互换带来的深层潜意识冲突。许多职场女性回到家，看着操持家务、温柔照顾孩子的丈夫，理智层面上会赞叹丈夫“体贴、充满爱心”，但在潜意识和闺蜜谈话中，往往会不由自主地产生怨怼与幻灭感：“我其实多希望他能在外面赚更多钱，多希望他是一个能为我遮风挡雨、照顾我的人。”这种源自演化心理的嫉妒、竞争心与失望感，若得不到坦诚的承认与疏导，势必蚕食亲密关系的根基。
---
### [02:21:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8495s) 菲律宾纵向研究的实证：育儿如何拉低男性的睾酮水平
为了印证男性育儿与睾酮下降的生物学联系，访谈中引用了一项在菲律宾开展的权威纵向追踪研究（longitudinal study）。该研究长期跟踪调查了624名男性，时间跨度接近5年，严密记录了他们从单身到步入伴侣关系、再到成为父亲全过程的体内激素动态变化。
研究数据显示，一旦男性成为父亲，其体内的睾酮水平会出现显著的生理性下跌：
1. **日间与夜间激素断崖**：新晋成为父亲且拥有稳定伴侣的男性，早晨睾酮水平平均下降了近30%，傍晚睾酮水平平均下降了35%，这一降幅在统计学上显著大于那些始终保持单身、没有生育子女的同龄对照组。
2. **照护时长与激素水平直接挂钩**：研究进一步发现，在日常照料中参与度更深、每天在育儿照护上投入3小时或以上的父亲，其体内的睾酮水平显著低于那些很少参与抚育照料的父亲。
这项长期实证研究彻底确证了：男性全职投身母职式的抚育照护并非只是一个单纯的“社会文化分工选择”，它会真实、深刻地逆转男性的内分泌状态，对男性的生物机能产生不可忽视的长远影响。
### [02:22:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8529s) 父亲同床共寝与睾酮水平的演化真相
对话从父亲与孩子同床共寝（co-sleeping）的生物学现象展开。研究表明，与孩子同床睡的父亲，其体内的睾酮（testosterone）水平明显低于不同床睡的父亲。这种近距离的物理接触在睡眠中进一步引发了与育儿照护相关的激素调节。主持人提及一种演化学假设：新晋父亲睾酮水平下降，或许是演化机制为了防止男性外出出轨、促使其留在家中抚育后代。换言之，生物资源在“繁衍交配”与“抚育后代”之间进行了投资权衡。
Erica 对此给出了辩证的审视。她指出，维持健康的夫妻关系依然需要适量的睾酮支持，单纯睾酮下降并不能完全杜绝出轨行为。一个心理健康的男性面对婴儿降生后性生活频率的断崖式下滑（例如从每天两次骤减为每周一两次），能够展现出理性区隔（compartmentalize）的能力并理解这是育儿过渡期；而心理不成熟的男性则可能因为欲求不满向外寻求代偿。婴儿同床引起的温和激素回落是自然的演化调节，但若男性长期充当全职育儿者而导致睾酮发生大幅且持续的下跌，其深层影响仍然存疑且可能带来隐患。
### [02:23:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8617s) 屏幕时代的童年危机：多巴胺激增与成瘾陷阱
谈及当今泛滥的智能手机、平板电脑与社交媒体，Erica 明确支持美国儿科学会（American Academy of Pediatrics）的权威准则：**两岁以下婴幼儿坚决禁止接触任何电子屏幕与移动设备**。在两岁之后，偶尔在家长的陪同下观看重温经典的温和儿童节目（如《罗杰斯先生的邻居》（Mister Rogers' Neighborhood））尚可接受，但必须受到极为严格的时间管制。
```mermaid
flowchart TD
accTitle: 电子屏幕对青少年的神经与心理影响机制
accDescr: 展示技术设备如何通过多巴胺与杏仁核过度激活，导致青少年陷入过度警觉与焦虑的闭环
subgraph Neuro["神经机制响应"]
Tech["屏幕与社交媒体刺激"] --> Dopamine["多巴胺异常飙升\n(青少年可达成人10倍敏感度)"]
Tech --> Amygdala["激活杏仁核 (Amygdala)\n持续触发警觉应激"]
end
subgraph Development["脑发育脱节"]
Dopamine --> PFC["前额叶皮层 (PFC)\n25岁前尚未发育成熟\n情绪与冲动调节受限"]
Amygdala --> Stress["慢性应激状态"]
end
subgraph Psychological["心理行为困境"]
PFC --> Addiction["高度成瘾机制"]
Stress --> Trap["虚拟完美主义陷阱\n(容貌焦虑、社会孤立、过度警觉)"]
Addiction --> Trap
end
```
这种管制的神经生物学原因非常明确：
- **多巴胺过载与调节缺失**：屏幕设备会剧烈推高大脑的多巴胺水平。更关键的是，研究表明青少年的大脑对多巴胺的敏感度极高，同等刺激下的反应几乎是成人的十倍——犹如吸食同一支大麻，未成年人体验到的神经兴奋强度远超成年人。而负责理性调控与冲动抑制的前额叶皮层（prefrontal cortex）直到 25 岁左右才能发育完备，未成年人根本不具备成人那样的生理自制力，极易坠入成瘾深渊。
- **杏仁核与应激机制的长期激活**：电子产品与社交网络会持续刺激形如杏仁的应激调控中枢——杏仁核（amygdala），使机体陷入慢性应激。
- **《盗梦空间》式的完美主义梦魇**：社交媒体在设计之初就带有操纵性的算法机制，尤其精准猎取青春期少女的心理弱点。虚假精致的内容将孩子们推入病态的容貌焦虑、攀比心态与自我审视中。Erica 借用电影《盗梦空间》（Inception）作比，形容青少年仿佛被永久困在了虚幻的意识牢笼里，在过度警觉（hyper-vigilant）、焦虑与社交孤立中无力挣脱。
### [02:27:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8830s) 父母在场的不可替代性与雇主的制度责任
当被问及本场对话中最关键却尚未深谈的盲点时，Erica 毫无保留地强调了“父母亲自在场（presence）”的核心地位。现代社会往往存在一种致命的误区，以为照护孩子是一项可以随意打包外包给保姆或机构的流水线差事。
> “在生活里，你可以外包记账，外包洗衣服，外包做饭。如果你是 CEO，你能外包的就尽量外包。但唯独花时间陪伴你的孩子绝对不能外包。你与孩子的亲密联结，他们未来的心理健康，完全取决于此。”
面对主流社会宣扬的“每个人都拼命工作赚钱，孩子自然会没事的”谎言，严峻的现实是孩子们正在承受普遍的心理创伤。对于身为主持人与企业雇主的困惑——“企业是否应该为新生儿父母放三年带薪长假？”，Erica 为职场设计提出了具体方案：
- **尽可能争取充裕的早期产假**：无论是母亲还是父亲，只要担任核心依恋抚育者（primary attachment figure），就应获得最大程度的休假支持。
- **提供阶段性的弹性工作制度**：在孩子幼龄的前几年，雇主应提供多元选择，包括兼职模式、工作分担制（job sharing）或每周半数时间远程办公，使员工在维持生计的同时不剥离孩子的成长。
- **打破严苛的绝对均等观念**：如果一位员工为了孩子需要在下午 4 点准时下班，雇主应当坦然接纳。没有孩子的员工可能会抱怨不公，但现实社会从来无法做到绝对均等，培育健康人格的下一代是整个文明的共同利益。
### [02:29:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8988s) 直面争议的勇气：母亲的“情感解离”与童年伤痕
主持人指出 Erica 的观点几乎条条都极具争议性，Erica 坦然回应：正是因为这些“令人不适的真相（inconvenient truths）”关乎孩子能否健康长大，才必须有人打破沉默站出来发声。如果一个人成天只在乎别人喜不喜欢自己，就永远不敢说出刺耳的真理。
谈及为何对这一领域拥有如此强烈的情感投入，Erica 敞开了自己深藏的心扉。她的原生母亲实际上非常慈爱，但由于幼年遭遇严重心理创伤，发展出了一种深层的“情感解离（dissociate）”防御机制：
- 母亲在情感心智上如同一个幼弱的小女孩，虽然物理上坐在身边，灵魂却常常游离，“就像手指间滑落的细沙一般难以捕捉”。
- Erica 提出了优秀父母不可或缺的两大核心支柱：**共情感受（feeling for the child）**与**心智化思考（thinking about the child）**。父母既要在孩子痛苦困顿绝不挪开注视的目光、设身处地去感受；更要能够独立思考孩子的内在自我。她的母亲能够感知同情，却因解离而无法真正理解和思考孩子。
童年时期面对深爱却无法在心理上真正触及的母亲，使 Erica 经历了深刻的痛苦，并在青春期演变为社交受挫、强烈的认同危机以及自尊匮乏。这份早期的伤痛最终成为了她的人生使命——不仅推动她在精神分析治疗中重塑自我，更促使她终其一生投身于临床实践，致力于帮助所有渴望成为更好父母的人打破代际创伤的循环。
### [02:32:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=9141s) 从多重职业探索到心理分析：埃丽卡的个人觉醒与使命
埃丽卡·科米萨尔（Erica Komisar）深情回顾了自己职业道路与个人使命的源头。在二十多岁时，她曾做过电视制作，在国会山（Capitol Hill）工作过，也从事过许多不同领域的公共关系（PR）工作。然而，辗转于多份工作之后的某一天，她坐在心理治疗师的诊室里环顾四周，心中突然顿悟：“这就是我想待的地方，我想做她所做的事，我想用她帮助我的方式去帮助其他人。”正是与第一任以及随后的第二任治疗师建立的深厚关系，彻底改变了她的人生轨迹。
她指出，作为一名精神分析学家，从业者必须自身接受长达很多很多年的深度治疗。这种长期自我剖析与疗愈的意义在于，从业者必须在个人层面做到高度“健全与条理化”（organized），确保不会在治疗过程中因自己未解决的情感创伤而无意间对来访者造成二次伤害。埃丽卡强调，这正是她个人的成长故事，也是为什么母亲角色在她心中拥有不可撼动的分量，以及为什么婴儿与幼童的脆弱性始终是她毕生倾力关注与保护的核心。
### [02:33:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=9204s) 终局问答：你的讣告上会写些什么？
播客迎来了《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）的经典收尾传统：上一位访客在不知晓下一位嘉宾身份的前提下留下一道问题。当主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）念出上一位嘉宾留给埃丽卡的提问——“你的讣告上会写些什么？”时，埃丽卡倒吸了一口气，感叹之余笑称等录制结束后一定要知道是谁提了这么重磅的问题。
在短暂的沉思后，埃丽卡给出了一段坦诚而充满温情的回答。她希望自己的讣告上能这样描述自己：
- “善良（Kind）”
- “慷慨（Generous）”
- “富有同情心（Compassionate）”
- “对自己的信念无比坚定，执拗得要命（Fervent in her beliefs, stubborn as hell）”
- “一位好朋友，一位好母亲，以及一位极棒的妻子（A good friend, a good mother, a wonderful wife）”
### [02:34:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=9263s) 异见的价值与即将为人父的迷茫
斯蒂芬真诚地回应道，她的讣告上必然会有这些评价，同时还会加上几句赞颂她通过毕生事业带给这个世界的卓越价值。斯蒂芬坦承，或许并非所有人都会认同埃丽卡提出的每一句话，毕竟在育儿和依恋关系这类议题上向来充满了形形色色的不同观点。但他坚信，那些敢于基于严谨科学研究、大量文献积累、丰富临床经验以及亲历真实案例，站出来大声说出自己真知灼见的人，其存在是极其不可或缺的。纵观人类历史，社会的进步往往源于那些敢于挑战主流叙事的异见者。斯蒂芬坦率地分享道，如果不是历史上有先驱敢于坚持自己的信念并向公认的观念发起反叛，他自己今天作为一名黑人，甚至不可能坐在这间位于美国的演播室里。因此，“善意的分歧具有巨大生产力”早已深深烙印在他的思维中。
斯蒂芬将埃丽卡的研究与观点视作对当下流行育儿叙事的有力挑战，她为公众讨论带来了实证支撑与不可或缺的全新视角。斯蒂芬吐露了自己的心声：他正步入即将成为父亲的人生阶段，面对当下充斥眼球的育儿理论深感困惑与迷茫——有人建议任由孩子在超市地板上号啕大哭不管不顾，有人推崇把孩子关禁闭罚坐冷板凳（timeout）。在铺天盖地的育儿建议风暴中摸索前行时，埃丽卡这种敢于逆流而上、道出许多人不敢公开言说的真相与反思，对他而言无比珍贵且充满启发。听到这里，埃丽卡幽默地插话道：“那我一定要把我的电话号码留给你！”
### [02:36:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=9360s) 著作与未来项目：为父母提供支持社群
斯蒂芬对埃丽卡慷慨倾囊相授的宝贵时间表示由衷感谢，并鼓励她继续坚定地推展她的事业。谈及未来的计划，埃丽卡透露她将于次年出版一部关于离婚（Divorce）与家庭关系的全新力作。斯蒂芬向听众隆重推荐了埃丽卡目前已出版的两部代表作，并在节目简介中附上了购买链接：
- 《陪伴：为什么优先考虑前三年的母爱至关重要》（*Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters*，2017年出版）
- 《小天晴：焦虑新时代下培养有复原力的青少年》（*Chicken Little: The Sky Isn't Falling: Raising Resilient Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety*，2021年出版）
在寻找更多专业资源方面，埃丽卡向大家介绍了她的个人官方网站（`ericakomisar.com`）以及她全新发起创立的平台项目“依恋圈”（Attachment Circles）。该平台致力于构建有温度的社群，并为0至3岁婴幼儿的主要看护人提供专业的情感依恋安全教育与支持网络。
### [02:36:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=9416s) 播客尾声：对话卡牌与订阅承诺
在送别嘉宾后，斯蒂芬向听众展示了演播室桌上的“CEO日记对话卡牌”。他介绍道，每一期来到这里的极富洞察力与成就的嘉宾都会在日记本中留下一道直击灵魂的问题，节目组将这些能够引发深度对话的提问制作成了卡牌，正面是提问者与问题，背面扫描条形码即可解锁下一位嘉宾的作答实况。这些卡牌专为与家人、朋友、同事甚至旅途中的陌生人建立深度连接而设计，观众可前往 `thediary.com` 获取。
最后，斯蒂芬分享了一个令团队惊讶的数据：在经常收听节目的忠实观众中，竟然有53%的人尚未点击订阅频道。他真挚地请求听众，如果喜欢节目的内容并希望给予支持，只需顺手点击免费的订阅按钮；作为回报，他和团队将竭尽全力倾听听众反馈，持续邀请大家最期待的重量级嘉宾，每周不断提升节目质量。
## Notable quotes
> [27:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=1664s) 一个父母的幸福上限，取决于他最不快乐的那个孩子。（A parent is only as happy as their least happy child.） — Erica Komisar
> [53:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=3201s) 我热爱美国，但美国在这方面糟透了（America sucks）。 — Erica Komisar
> [01:07:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4065s) 休斯敦，我们遇到麻烦了（Houston, we have a problem）。 — Erica Komisar
> [01:19:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=4755s) ADHD 就像是一个大垃圾桶，所有那些从未得到过处理的焦虑患者，统统被倒进了这个桶里。 — Erica Komisar
> [01:36:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=5804s) 育儿是一项团队运动，而不是一项竞技运动……把你们的好胜心留到网球场、篮球场或公园跑步中去，绝不要在抚育孩子和赚钱多少上相互攀比竞争。 — Erica Komisar
> [01:41:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6075s) “高质量时间”纯粹是一种自恋的幻想（Quality time is a narcissistic fantasy）。 — Erica Komisar
> [01:43:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6194s) 你完全可以在身体上陪在孩子身边，但情感上心不在焉；可如果你连身体都无法足够多地在场，你根本不可能做到情感上的充分投入。 — Erica Komisar
> [01:55:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=6913s) 孩子需要你，是在他们需要的时候，而不是在你恰好有空的时候。 — Erica Komisar
> [01:57:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=7077s) 一段关系造成的创伤，必须由另一段关系来修复。 — Erica Komisar
> [02:27:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4&t=8830s) 在生活里，你可以外包记账，外包洗衣服，外包做饭。如果你是 CEO，你能外包的就尽量外包。但唯独花时间陪伴你的孩子绝对不能外包。你与孩子的亲密联结，他们未来的心理健康，完全取决于此。 — Erica Komisar
## Mentioned
Erica Komisar（埃里卡·科米萨）, Steven Bartlett（斯蒂芬·巴特利特）, John Bowlby（约翰·鲍尔比）, Jonathan Haidt（乔纳森·海特）, Jordan Peterson（乔丹·彼得森）, Harry Harlow（哈里·哈洛）, Michael Meaney（迈克尔·米尼）, Claude Monet（克劳德·莫奈）, Will Ahmed（威尔·艾哈迈德）, The Diary Of A CEO, Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters, Chicken Little the Sky Isn't Falling: Raising Resilient Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety, Wall Street Journal（华尔街日报）, Attachment Circles（依恋圈）, Alliance for Responsible Citizenship, American Academy of Pediatrics（美国儿科学会）, Zoe, Whoop, Mister Rogers' Neighborhood（罗杰斯先生的邻居）, Inception（盗梦空间）, ADHD（注意缺陷多动障碍）, ACEs（不良童年经历）
## Video description
Erica Komisar is a clinical social worker, psychoanalyst, and parent guidance expert with over 30 years of private practice experience. She is the author of books such as, ‘Chicken Little the Sky Isn't Falling: Raising Resilient Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety’.
00:00 Intro
02:16 Erica's Mission
05:17 Erica's Background
08:26 Who Are Erica's Patients?
09:49 How Have Social Changes Influenced Parenting?
13:14 Is the Role of a Mother More Important Than That of a Father?
16:44 Why Are Fathers Important From a Biological Level?
21:07 Is Guilt a Bad Thing?
23:34 Erica's Unpopular Ideas About Parenting
25:31 Family Diaspora: Raising Children Without Extended Family
27:45 Can Raising Children Away From Extended Family Be Justified?
28:44 Voluntary Childlessness
29:39 Attachment Disorders
33:54 How Do Attachment Disorders Manifest in Adulthood?
35:08 Choosing a Partner Based on Attachment Styles
36:34 Predicting Relationship Success Based on Attachment Styles
38:07 Does Having More Children Correlate With Neglect?
39:33 Decline in Birth Rates
41:36 What Is Unique About Relationships With Your Own Children?
43:25 What Contributes to Growing Infertility Among People?
46:59 How Did Erica Manage to Balance Work and Motherhood?
49:02 Should Fathers Be the Stay-at-Home Parent?
51:32 Harlow's Study on Rhesus Monkeys
53:52 The Challenge of Motherhood in Poor Socioeconomic Conditions
57:50 Does More Paid Leave Equal Better Childcare?
59:24 Connection Between Upbringing and Success in Adult Life
01:01:54 Ads
01:02:59 ADHD: Why Has It Risen So Much in the Past Decade?
01:08:06 ADHD Kids Are in Hypervigilant Stress Mode
01:10:05 We're Medicating ADHD Wrong
01:11:50 The Top Stressors We're Exposing Our Children To
01:13:54 Is ADHD Hereditary?
01:17:18 Can MRI Scans Spot ADHD?
01:19:15 What's Wrong With Medicating Children?
01:22:06 What Actually Is Anxiety?
01:23:40 The Link Between Stress and ADHD
01:24:47 What to Do if a Kid Screams in a Supermarket
01:28:19 The Different Types of Trauma
01:31:49 Stressful States
01:35:08 Same-Sex Couples Taking Roles
01:36:46 What Happens When Women Are the Primary Breadwinners?
01:41:15 What Should Career-Driven Mothers Do?
01:44:33 Not Everyone Can Do This Stuff
01:47:49 Children Don't Need Other Kids Until the Age of 3
01:49:25 Ads
01:51:23 What's So Important at 3 Years Old?
01:57:57 Can I Repair My Trauma and Brain Past My 30s?
02:01:08 Our Pain and Trauma Are Rooted in Childhood
02:04:58 Is "Daddy Issues" a Thing?
02:08:58 Are We Taking Men's Purpose Away?
02:13:06 Men's Testosterone Drops When They Become Fathers
02:15:28 What Happens When Men Become the Primary Caregiver?
02:18:46 Should We Split Schools Into Genders?
02:21:35 Testosterone Decrease
02:23:36 Raising Healthy Kids in a World of Technology
02:27:10 The Importance of Being Present With Your Child
02:28:12 What Should Employers Do?
02:29:47 Do You Realise How Controversial the Things You Say Are?
02:30:26 The Reason All of This Is So Personal to You
02:33:22 What Does Your Obituary Say?
Follow Erica:
Instagram - https://g2ul0.app.link/pwv9PCz0lRb
Twitter - https://g2ul0.app.link/2EKsgfB0lRb
You can purchase Erica’s books:
‘Chicken Little the Sky Isn't Falling: Raising Resilient Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety’, here: https://amzn.to/41CKbWd
'Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood in the First Three Years Matters' - https://www.amazon.com/Being-There-Prioritizing-Motherhood-Matters/dp/0143109294
Erica also launched her newly initiative Attachment Circles, a platform aimed to create community and educate primary caregivers on the importance of attachment security, particularly in years 0-3. You can find out more, here: https://g2ul0.app.link/OPtiA4a8lRb
Get access to exclusive Diary of a CEO content: https://www.youtube.com/channel/UCGq-a57w-aPwyi3pW7XLiHw/join
Follow me:
https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb
Get your hands on the Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards here: https://bit.ly/conversationcards-youtube
Independent research: https://stevenbartlett.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/03/DOAC-Erica-Komisar-Independent-research-further-reading.pdf
Sponsors:
Bon Charge - http://boncharge.com/diary?rfsn=8189247.228c0cb with code DIARY for 25% off
ZOE - http://joinzoe.com with code STEVEN10 for 10% off
WHOOP - https://JOIN.WHOOP.COM/CEO
[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cialLfVZqm4)
Source quotes
[27:44] Erica Komisar: 一个父母的幸福上限，取决于他最不快乐的那个孩子。（A parent is only as happy as their least happy child.）
[53:21] Erica Komisar: 我热爱美国，但美国在这方面糟透了（America sucks）。
[67:45] Erica Komisar: 休斯敦，我们遇到麻烦了（Houston, we have a problem）。
[79:15] Erica Komisar: ADHD 就像是一个大垃圾桶，所有那些从未得到过处理的焦虑患者，统统被倒进了这个桶里。
[96:44] Erica Komisar: 育儿是一项团队运动，而不是一项竞技运动……把你们的好胜心留到网球场、篮球场或公园跑步中去，绝不要在抚育孩子和赚钱多少上相互攀比竞争。
[101:15] Erica Komisar: “高质量时间”纯粹是一种自恋的幻想（Quality time is a narcissistic fantasy）。
[103:14] Erica Komisar: 你完全可以在身体上陪在孩子身边，但情感上心不在焉；可如果你连身体都无法足够多地在场，你根本不可能做到情感上的充分投入。
[115:13] Erica Komisar: 孩子需要你，是在他们需要的时候，而不是在你恰好有空的时候。
[117:57] Erica Komisar: 一段关系造成的创伤，必须由另一段关系来修复。
[147:10] Erica Komisar: 在生活里，你可以外包记账，外包洗衣服，外包做饭。如果你是 CEO，你能外包的就尽量外包。但唯独花时间陪伴你的孩子绝对不能外包。你与孩子的亲密联结，他们未来的心理健康，完全取决于此。
Source quotes
[5:17] Erica Komisar: We are abandoning our children for our own desires, for our careers, for material success. And there was a great deal of misunderstanding about the irreducible emotional needs of children.
[9:49] Erica Komisar: You don't have to have children, period, to have a satisfying life. But if you're going to have children, you need to be equipped to care for them...
[21:07] Erica Komisar: If we don't feel guilt, then our species is lost... When we turn towards our internal conflicts, we tend to make better decisions for ourselves, for our children, for our families.
[53:27] Erica Komisar: America sucks
[70:33] Erica Komisar: putting your finger in a dike
[83:26] Erica Komisar: sailing in the Caribbean
[87:04] Erica Komisar: I can see that you really want that packet of sweets. I can see how hard it is... but you know you can't have it before dinner. You know that's the rule.
[96:44] Erica Komisar: Parenting is a team sport, not a competitive sport.
[96:44] Erica Komisar: Save your competition for the tennis court, for the basketball court, for running in the park, but don't compete over child-rearing.
[103:20] Erica Komisar: you can't be emotionally present if you're not physically there enough of the time.
[111:23] Erica Komisar: By 3 years of age, you're growing a garden... This is an abundant garden of brain tissue... After 3 years old, they go into childhood... from 3 to 9, it's still growing, but it's not growing at the same pace... Now, adolescence comes, 9 to 25. And now you have to prune back the garden because if you don't prune back the cells you don't need, it's as damaging to the brain as if you didn't grow them to begin with.
[115:19] Erica Komisar: Children need you when they need you, not when you're personally available.
[115:19] Erica Komisar: it takes a relationship to cause the trauma and it takes another relationship to repair it.
[147:10] Erica Komisar: Delegate your accounting, delegate your laundry, delegate your cooking... But, spend time with your children.
[148:12] Erica Komisar: Life isn't fair... that's what society needs. It needs healthy children.
Original transcript
[0:00] One in five children will not leave
[0:01] childhood without developing a serious
[0:03] mental illness. Anxiety, depression,
[0:06] ADHD, behavioral problems. And what
[0:09] pisses me off is that we're not really
[0:11] educating or telling parents the truth
[0:13] as to why. Why is it that what you say
[0:16] is so troubling for some people?
[0:17] Sometimes facts are an inconvenient
[0:19] truth, but everything I'm going to say
[0:21] is supported by research.
[0:23] Erica Komisar is a parenting expert and
[0:25] psychoanalyst
[0:26] who uses over 30 years of research
[0:28] to challenge the societal norms on
[0:30] parenting and early child development.
[0:32] There's some myths that really have to
[0:34] be debunked about how to raise a healthy
[0:36] child. And the first is daycare is good
[0:38] for children for socialization. No, it
[0:41] is so bad for their brain. And it's been
[0:43] known to increase aggression, behavioral
[0:45] problems, attachment disorders because
[0:47] babies need their mothers in the first 3
[0:49] years for emotional security.
[0:50] Can a father do that? So, fathers are
[0:52] important in a different way, and I'll
[0:53] go through all of that. But they're both
[0:55] critical because if you're raised
[0:57] without one, you are missing a piece.
[0:59] And then there's quality versus quantity
[1:01] time. Myth. You need to be there a
[1:03] quality of time as well as a quantity of
[1:05] time. You can't have a fabulous career
[1:08] and then come home and be present for
[1:10] your child on your time. It needs to be
[1:12] on their time. And there's more.
[1:13] And we're going to go through all of
[1:15] them, but are there any areas of
[1:17] privilege that you need to acknowledge?
[1:18] Maybe someone who doesn't have a partner
[1:20] there or someone who is in an extremely
[1:22] difficult economic situation. I do, but
[1:24] there are ways to creatively deal with
[1:26] it. And I'll go through each of them.
[1:28] So, there's
[1:30] This has always blown my mind a little
[1:32] bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
[1:34] regularly haven't yet subscribed to this
[1:36] show. So, could I ask you for a favor
[1:38] before we start? If you like the show
[1:40] and you like what we do here and you
[1:41] want to support us, the free simple way
[1:43] that you can do just that is by hitting
[1:44] the subscribe button. And my commitment
[1:46] to you is if you do that, then I'll do
[1:48] everything in my power, me and my team,
[1:49] to make sure that this show is better
[1:51] for you every single week. We'll listen
[1:53] to your feedback. We'll find the guest
[1:55] that you want me to speak to. And we'll
[1:56] continue to do what we do. Thank you so
[1:58] much.
[2:02] Erica,
[2:03] you're clearly on a mission.
[2:06] And I
[2:07] get that energy from you that there's
[2:09] really an idea that you believe that
[2:11] much of the world doesn't believe or is
[2:15] struggling to accept in some way, but
[2:17] it's an important idea.
[2:20] What is the mission that you're on?
[2:22] I like to think of it as three P's,
[2:25] presence, prioritization, and
[2:27] prevention. And I'll go through each of
[2:29] them. Um
[2:31] my mission is to
[2:33] educate parents and uh policy makers and
[2:37] clinicians and educators about the
[2:40] the fact that for children to be
[2:42] mentally healthy in the future,
[2:45] you have to be physically and
[2:46] emotionally present for them throughout
[2:49] childhood, but particularly in the two
[2:51] critical periods of brain development,
[2:53] which are zero to three and nine to 25,
[2:56] which is adolescence. So, in those two
[2:58] critical periods of brain development,
[3:01] uh particularly zero to three,
[3:03] um much of a child's development depends
[3:06] on their environment and you are their
[3:08] environment. So, I run around the world
[3:10] talking about the importance of physical
[3:12] and emotional presence, attachment
[3:14] security. Attachment security is the
[3:17] foundation for future mental health.
[3:20] Prioritization, we prioritize everything
[3:24] today other than our children. We
[3:25] prioritize our work, our careers,
[3:29] uh our material success, our personal
[3:31] desires and pleasures, but what we're
[3:33] not prioritizing is children.
[3:36] Um and you know, that's a problem
[3:39] because if we don't prioritize them,
[3:41] they break down. They may break down at
[3:44] three, they may break down at eight, or
[3:46] they may not break down till they're in
[3:48] adolescence, but eventually they break
[3:50] down.
[3:51] And prevention, there's so much that we
[3:54] can do. We have a mental health crisis
[3:56] now in the world.
[3:58] It varies to a certain degree. In
[3:59] America, one in five children will not
[4:01] leave childhood without breaking down at
[4:04] some point, without developing a serious
[4:06] mental illness. Anxiety, depression,
[4:10] ADHD, behavioral problems,
[4:13] um suicidal thoughts. So, uh we have a
[4:16] problem. In the UK, it's one in six. In
[4:18] America, it's one in five. It's around
[4:21] the world, it's about one in five. That
[4:23] is a shocking figure. And so, and and
[4:26] the truth is we can do a great deal to
[4:29] prevent that. The idea that we are
[4:31] trying to put out fires without talking
[4:34] about what is the origin of these
[4:37] issues. The way that the mental health
[4:39] care system works now, it's like what I
[4:41] call cutting the grass.
[4:43] Uh children are medicated, which is
[4:45] basically just pain management. Um
[4:47] they're given CBT therapy, which again
[4:50] is just pain management. But why aren't
[4:52] we asking the important questions, which
[4:54] is
[4:55] where does emotional regulation
[4:58] originate? Where does it come from?
[5:00] When does it start? How do we foster
[5:03] development in children from a very
[5:05] young age to promote resilience to
[5:08] stress and adversity in the future? And
[5:10] so, those are the my three missions.
[5:13] And for someone who doesn't know your
[5:16] work and doesn't isn't aware of you,
[5:19] they might be thinking, how would you
[5:21] know, Erica?
[5:22] How would you know the answer?
[5:24] So, I'm a psychoanalyst.
[5:26] Um I'm also a social worker. I started
[5:28] out as a social worker and then became a
[5:30] psychoanalyst. I'm also an author of
[5:31] books on parent guidance and parent
[5:34] education. Um and I've been in practice
[5:37] seeing patients. So, the majority of my
[5:39] work is still seeing patients. I have a
[5:41] full-time job of seeing patients. And uh
[5:45] as someone who is also a parent, have
[5:47] three children of my own.
[5:49] Um, and so as a parent, as a clinician,
[5:53] uh, as an author who has for the past
[5:57] 20 years been researching, and what I
[6:00] did is I collected research in
[6:02] epigenetics
[6:03] and attachment theory and neuroscience
[6:06] and uh, wrote my first book Being There
[6:09] because what what happened is I was
[6:11] seeing this uptick in mental illness in
[6:14] children, and this is really how I got
[6:16] into it. Um,
[6:18] about 30 years ago, I started practicing
[6:21] about 36 years ago, but I was probably 5
[6:25] years into my practice, and I was seeing
[6:27] that the families that were coming to
[6:29] see me had younger and younger children
[6:32] that were being diagnosed
[6:34] with very serious mental illnesses and
[6:36] being medicated at a very young age,
[6:39] basically silencing their pain.
[6:41] And what I was observing in my practice
[6:44] is that those children who were doing
[6:46] the least well
[6:48] were the ones whose mothers were the
[6:50] least present in their lives. So, their
[6:53] primary attachment figures were the
[6:55] least present in their lives.
[6:57] And so then I started looking at the
[6:59] research. I looked at all the
[7:00] neuroscience research since the '90s and
[7:03] all of the new new research that had
[7:04] come out. Um, I looked at the old
[7:07] attachment theories which have been
[7:08] around since the '60s, and I looked at
[7:10] the epigenetic research which was rather
[7:12] new, too.
[7:13] And I saw this trend. I I saw that we
[7:18] were abandoning our children for our own
[7:22] desires, for our careers, for material
[7:25] success.
[7:26] Um, and there was a great deal of
[7:28] misunderstanding about the irreducible
[7:30] emotional needs of children.
[7:32] We're going to go through all of that
[7:34] today. I'm very excited to learn more
[7:36] about all of this. I'm not a parent
[7:37] myself. Um, from all the
[7:39] investigative research we've done, you
[7:41] have three very well-adjusted children.
[7:44] Um so, congratulations for that, and I
[7:45] hope to have
[7:47] successful children myself one day. But,
[7:48] I'm also just really interested in
[7:50] understanding myself through the work
[7:52] that you've done and the work that you
[7:53] continue to do because we're all at one
[7:55] point children, and much of the
[7:56] fingerprints of that early experience
[7:58] still exist in us today. So, I'm keen to
[7:59] understand how things that might have
[8:01] happened to me or anyone listening today
[8:03] when we were younger
[8:05] may have shaped us in prosocial,
[8:07] antisocial ways or productive or
[8:09] unproductive ways.
[8:11] You mentioned that you still see clients
[8:13] and patients today.
[8:15] What kind of patients do you see?
[8:18] What are they struggling with, and who
[8:20] are they? Are you seeing the parents,
[8:21] the kids, both?
[8:24] Well, I have a very large parent
[8:26] guidance practice because of the books
[8:28] that I write um and the articles I
[8:30] write. I also write for the Wall Street
[8:32] Journal and other newspapers. So, I
[8:34] you know, people find me through my
[8:36] writing, um and then they reach out for
[8:38] help. Um
[8:40] And and so, I have the parent guidance
[8:42] basically means people come to see me
[8:44] either both parents or one parent
[8:47] because they have questions about their
[8:48] child's development or something's going
[8:50] wrong. Their child's starting to to
[8:52] develop symptoms,
[8:54] um and they don't want to medicate them,
[8:56] and they want to understand what's
[8:57] really at the root cause of of of the
[9:00] issue. And so, that's a a good portion
[9:03] of my practice, but I also see
[9:05] individual patients for depression and
[9:07] anxiety, and I see couples, and you
[9:09] know, the joke about psychoanalysts is
[9:11] we're all specialists in depression and
[9:13] anxiety.
[9:15] But, um yeah. So, I see individuals and
[9:17] couples, but a lot of parent guidance
[9:19] work.
[9:20] And they come to you typically because
[9:21] they're they're noticing something is
[9:23] not right with their child. Sometimes
[9:25] they'll come preventatively because they
[9:27] want to raise a healthy child, and
[9:29] there's so much white noise in society.
[9:31] There's so much of misinformation.
[9:34] Our instincts are to lean into our
[9:37] children. Our evolutionary drive is to
[9:41] create a feeling of safety and security
[9:44] for our children and to be as present as
[9:46] possible and to soothe them when they're
[9:48] in distress and to be there to teach
[9:50] them our values and
[9:52] but society
[9:55] took a turn.
[9:57] It took a turn in the I suppose you
[9:59] could say going back to the Industrial
[10:01] Revolution. If I really want to go back,
[10:03] I'll say the Industrial Revolution was a
[10:04] time when
[10:06] women were forced into the workplace,
[10:09] into factories and cities, you know,
[10:11] they were separated from children for
[10:12] the first time, but really the turn that
[10:14] society took that that I think has a lot
[10:16] to do with what's happening today is the
[10:18] me movement of the '60s and also the
[10:21] feminist movement. Both of those
[10:23] movements which had a tremendously
[10:25] positive impact on society in one way
[10:28] also had a tremendously negative impact
[10:30] on society. When women decided that it
[10:35] was
[10:36] cool to go to work and to work full-time
[10:39] out of the home,
[10:41] you know, everybody cheered and said,
[10:42] "Great, you know, women have the same
[10:44] rights as men and now everybody can be
[10:46] in the workforce and be independent and
[10:48] make money and do their own thing. Me,
[10:50] me, me, me, me."
[10:52] The problem is that children were
[10:54] dropped.
[10:56] They were abandoned.
[10:57] And their needs which are not needs that
[11:01] are going to shift because society
[11:03] shifts because they have irreducible
[11:06] neurological emotional needs. So, we
[11:09] know that babies are born neurologically
[11:12] and emotionally fragile.
[11:15] And so, what that means is they're not
[11:16] born resilient. And today, what's being
[11:20] projected onto babies is they can handle
[11:23] a lot. They can handle stress, they can
[11:26] handle separation,
[11:28] they can handle you going back to work
[11:30] after 6 weeks or 3 months and leaving
[11:32] them in daycare with strangers or, you
[11:35] know, and from an evolutionary
[11:37] perspective,
[11:38] babies have always needed the physical
[11:41] skin-to-skin contact with their mothers
[11:43] for the first year. Most parts of the
[11:45] world babies are worn on their mothers'
[11:47] bodies
[11:48] because mothers perform a number of
[11:50] really important functions for babies
[11:52] that are biological functions based on
[11:55] our evolutionary need to provide our
[11:58] babies with what we call attachment
[12:00] security. Um so, you know, society took
[12:03] a turn and it's it's um it's caused a
[12:07] lot of damage. I mean, this mental
[12:08] health crisis in children
[12:10] I saw coming
[12:12] 30 years ago.
[12:14] And it was already, you know, so um you
[12:17] know, I have uh friends and colleagues
[12:19] like Jonathan Haidt who says, "Oh, well,
[12:21] it didn't start till social media." And
[12:23] that's false because I was seeing this
[12:26] uptick and if you really look, there was
[12:28] an uptick in mental illness in children
[12:30] um going back decades and it had
[12:33] everything to do with the shift in
[12:35] society towards
[12:37] uh self-centeredness, towards
[12:39] narcissism, towards individualism,
[12:41] towards me, me, me.
[12:43] And so, you know, and I always say that
[12:45] you don't have to have children, period,
[12:48] to have a satisfying life. But if you're
[12:50] going to have children, you need to be
[12:54] equipped to care for them because having
[12:57] children alone without really
[12:58] understanding what it means to care for
[13:00] them and being prepared to take on that
[13:02] responsibility
[13:04] is causing our children to break down.
[13:07] Why do you mention mothers and not
[13:08] fathers in that? Because you've you seem
[13:11] to have an emphasis on the role that a
[13:12] mother plays and it seems to be more
[13:14] important in your view than the role
[13:16] that a father plays or maybe even that a
[13:18] nanny or some other caregiver could
[13:20] play. And I noticed that on your first
[13:22] book which was written in 2017,
[13:24] Being There, on the cover it says why
[13:26] prioritizing motherhood in bigger
[13:29] letters
[13:30] in the first 3 years matters.
[13:32] Scientifically, evolutionarily, with
[13:35] studies and research, how can you make
[13:36] the case to me to make me believe that
[13:39] the role of the mother in particular is
[13:41] essential versus a father or other
[13:43] caregiver?
[13:44] So, in fact, in the book it talks about
[13:47] the difference between mothers and
[13:48] fathers cuz that's an important
[13:50] question.
[13:51] Um and the reason I wrote about mothers
[13:53] is not because fathers are unimportant,
[13:56] but fathers are important and in a
[13:57] different way.
[13:59] So, there's a whole debate in society
[14:01] about this kind of idea of gender
[14:03] neutrality that mothers and fathers are
[14:06] interchangeable, but actually from an
[14:08] evolutionary perspective as mammals
[14:09] they're not interchangeable. They serve
[14:11] different functions.
[14:13] And those roles and those behaviors are
[14:15] connected to nurturing hormones. So,
[14:17] mothers
[14:18] um are really important for what we call
[14:21] sensitive empathic nurturing when
[14:23] children are infants and toddlers. That
[14:25] means that when children are in
[14:28] distress, mothers soothe babies and
[14:31] therefore regulate their emotions from
[14:35] moment to moment. Every time a mother
[14:36] soothes a baby
[14:38] uh with skin-to-skin contact and eye
[14:40] contact and the soothing tone of her
[14:42] voice, she's leaning into that baby's
[14:45] pain and she is regulating that baby's
[14:48] emotions. And the way I like to think
[14:49] about it is that
[14:51] you know, when babies are born, they're
[14:53] born
[14:55] emotionally
[14:57] disjointed. Think about sailing in the
[14:59] Atlantic. This is how babies' emotions
[15:01] go. They'll go from zero to 60 in 3
[15:03] seconds with their emotions.
[15:05] Um and where we want to get babies is to
[15:09] sailing in the Caribbean. Not
[15:11] flatlining, but we want them to be able
[15:13] to regulate their emotions, but they're
[15:15] not born that way. And so, mothers
[15:19] because they soothe the baby from moment
[15:21] to moment When they're physically and
[15:23] emotionally present enough in the first
[15:25] 3 years, they help a baby to learn how
[15:28] to regulate their emotions. So, by 3
[15:30] years of age, 85% of the right brain is
[15:33] developed. And by 3 years of age, babies
[15:36] can then start to internalize the
[15:37] ability to regulate their own emotions.
[15:39] Now, if mothers aren't present as the
[15:42] primary attachment figures to do that
[15:45] mirroring of emotion, to do that
[15:48] soothing of of their emotions, then
[15:51] babies don't learn how to regulate their
[15:53] emotions. The other thing that's
[15:54] important that mothers do is they buffer
[15:56] babies from stress by wearing them on
[15:59] their body for the first year. And then
[16:01] by being as present as possible for 3
[16:03] years, they actually protect babies'
[16:06] brains from cortisol, the stress
[16:08] hormone. So, there is a a hormone called
[16:12] oxytocin. It's the love hormone.
[16:15] And it is protective against cortisol.
[16:18] The more a mother nurtures with
[16:20] sensitive empathic nurturing, meaning
[16:22] when the baby cries, the mother goes,
[16:24] "Oh, sweetheart. You know, let me see
[16:26] the boo-boo. Let me kiss the boo-boo."
[16:28] That actually raises the oxytocin in the
[16:32] baby's brain, which then protects the
[16:34] baby from cortisol. Can a father do
[16:37] that? So, now fathers, why are fathers
[16:40] important? So, fathers also produce
[16:43] oxytocin, but it has a different effect
[16:46] on their brain. So, for mothers,
[16:48] oxytocin makes mothers sensitive
[16:50] empathic nurtures, very vigilant to the
[16:52] baby's distress.
[16:54] When fathers produce oxytocin, it comes
[16:56] from a different part of their brain.
[16:58] And it makes them more what we call
[17:00] playful tactile stimulators of babies.
[17:03] What does that sound like to you?
[17:05] Playful tactile stimulators of babies.
[17:08] Throwing the baby up in the air and
[17:09] tickling the baby and running after the
[17:11] baby and roughhousing.
[17:13] And so, that's important for a variety
[17:15] of reasons. Um first, it encourages
[17:18] things like exploration and risk-taking.
[17:22] It encourages separation.
[17:24] And fathers do this really important
[17:27] thing, which is they help the baby to
[17:29] learn to regulate certain emotions. So,
[17:31] mothers help to regulate sadness, fear,
[17:35] distress. Fathers help to regulate
[17:37] excitement and aggression. So, when
[17:40] fathers aren't in the house, when there
[17:42] are single mothers raising children
[17:44] without a father,
[17:46] often little boys develop behavioral
[17:48] problems is what we're seeing, that they
[17:50] can't regulate their aggression. Because
[17:52] fathers help little boys in particular,
[17:55] but little girls, too, to regulate
[17:56] aggression. So, when fathers aren't
[17:58] around, you'll often see little boys who
[18:02] are more impulsive, who are more
[18:03] aggressive. Um, so, the answer is
[18:06] fathers and mothers are both critical to
[18:09] the development of children, which is a
[18:11] very controversial thing to say today.
[18:14] Because if you're raised without one,
[18:16] you are missing a piece.
[18:18] But, they're not the same. And they're
[18:20] not the same because our hormones
[18:22] dictate they're not the same. So,
[18:24] fathers produce a hormone in great
[18:26] quantities called vasopressin.
[18:29] Vasopressin is the protective aggressive
[18:31] hormone.
[18:32] And what does it do? It helps fathers to
[18:34] protect their family. There was a study
[18:37] that was done where mothers and fathers
[18:39] lay in bed,
[18:41] and the baby cries.
[18:44] Uh, it was out of the UK, okay, this
[18:45] study. The baby cries, and the father
[18:49] sleep through the baby's distress cries,
[18:51] but the mothers wake up right away.
[18:53] Okay?
[18:54] But, with the rustling of leaves outside
[18:56] the window, the mothers sleep through
[18:58] it, and the fathers wake up right away.
[19:01] Because the fathers are attuned to
[19:03] predatorial threat. So, our nurturing
[19:06] hormones make us different. I mean, the
[19:09] fact that we can say that there are many
[19:12] things that are similar between women
[19:14] and men. Of course, we're both
[19:16] intelligent, we can both be ambitious.
[19:19] Um but I think the idea that we want to
[19:23] kind of make everything the same when
[19:26] it's just not factual. It is the
[19:28] inconvenient truth that mothers and
[19:30] fathers
[19:32] nurturing hormones dictate that if they
[19:34] are healthy and they've been raised in a
[19:36] healthy environment, they are different.
[19:39] Now, does that mean that a father can't
[19:41] raise a child and be a sensitive
[19:42] empathic nurturer? It it doesn't mean he
[19:45] can't take on that role. But if as a
[19:47] society we can't acknowledge the
[19:49] differences, then a father can't learn
[19:53] to be a sensitive empathic nurturer.
[19:54] Meaning these are instinctual behaviors.
[19:57] And so that infant, if that father is
[20:00] going to stay home with that baby,
[20:02] acknowledging the differences allows
[20:04] that father then to become a sensitive
[20:07] empathic nurturer.
[20:09] So interesting because these aren't the
[20:12] ideas that are socially accepted. Or at
[20:15] least the ideas you see on social media.
[20:16] And funnily enough, as you were
[20:18] speaking, I recorded everything you said
[20:20] and I ran it through AI and AI said the
[20:22] core ideas that you shared
[20:24] um are well supported by evolutionary
[20:25] psychology and neuroscience, which is
[20:27] quite surprising cuz usually
[20:29] AI argues with people.
[20:31] so so the thing is none of the books I
[20:33] write are based on opinion. So I'm I'm
[20:36] very skittish about saying anything that
[20:38] isn't backed up with research. Um so
[20:42] it's everything that I write about and
[20:45] speak about is is supported by research.
[20:49] Why is it that what you say is so
[20:51] troubling for some people?
[20:52] Have you You know why, right? Cuz it cuz
[20:54] it makes us confront a set of realities
[20:57] that It's an inconvenient truth, to
[20:59] quote Al Gore. It's an inconvenient
[21:01] truth. Um sometimes facts are an
[21:04] inconvenient truth. Just like, you know,
[21:06] climate change is an inconvenient truth.
[21:08] Um this is an inconvenient truth. It
[21:11] inconveniences people. It also makes
[21:13] people feel guilty. So,
[21:15] I don't believe that guilt is a bad
[21:18] feeling. I don't believe that guilt is a
[21:20] bad thing.
[21:21] Guilt is a sign that your ego is
[21:24] functioning. It's a sign that the part
[21:27] of you, the part of your ego called the
[21:29] superego, can identify something that
[21:32] feels right and wrong. So,
[21:34] if you look at a baby who's crying,
[21:36] who's your baby, and you feel nothing,
[21:38] that means that there's a part of you
[21:40] that is dead inside. There's a part of
[21:43] you that is unempathic towards your own
[21:46] young. And we would say that that
[21:48] doesn't make that person a bad person.
[21:50] It makes that person someone who
[21:52] probably had some early trauma
[21:54] themselves, right? It means that they
[21:56] probably have some kind of attachment
[21:58] disorder where they can't be attuned to
[22:01] their their baby's pain, right? So, when
[22:05] you are guilty, it means you have
[22:07] internal conflict. It means two parts of
[22:09] you are struggling with each other. The
[22:12] part of you that wants to do whatever
[22:13] you want to do. I want to go out to
[22:15] work. I want to make money. I want to be
[22:16] free.
[22:18] You know, and the other part of you that
[22:19] says, "Wait a second, but my baby, my
[22:22] baby needs me. Look at my vulnerable
[22:25] baby. Look how sad. Look at the distress
[22:28] that my absence is causing that baby."
[22:30] So, if we don't feel guilt, then our
[22:34] species is lost. We're lost.
[22:37] Now, excessive guilt is another thing.
[22:40] If you're a good enough mother or good
[22:42] enough father, and you still feel
[22:44] guilty, then we call it anxiety. But for
[22:46] the most part, what I say makes a lot of
[22:50] women and men feel guilty.
[22:52] And again, I don't see that as a bad
[22:54] thing. And I think when we tell
[22:57] parents to turn away from their guilt
[22:59] instead of turning toward it,
[23:02] When we turn towards our internal
[23:04] conflicts, we tend to make better
[23:06] decisions for ourselves, for our
[23:08] children, for our families. Um, but when
[23:11] we turn away from those conflicts, we
[23:14] tend not to make good decisions, and
[23:16] those tend to have long-term
[23:18] consequences.
[23:20] What exactly are you inconveniencing
[23:22] with your truth?
[23:24] What are the ideas that you're That you
[23:26] have to sacrifice time
[23:28] and money
[23:30] and freedom.
[23:32] That if you want to raise healthy
[23:34] children, it's going to require
[23:36] discomfort and frustration and
[23:38] sacrifice.
[23:40] And what's interesting is that what's
[23:42] also happened is because we're raising
[23:44] our children in such a selfish,
[23:46] self-centered environment.
[23:48] Um,
[23:49] young people are more fragile. They are
[23:52] more emotionally fragile. More of them
[23:54] have attachment disorders. They can't
[23:56] bear frustration.
[23:58] They can't bear pain. They can't bear
[24:00] sleeplessness. You know, the idea that
[24:03] you have to get a baby nurse because you
[24:05] can't get up in the middle of the night
[24:06] with your own baby, and that's become
[24:09] the norm in certain socioeconomic
[24:11] circles. I mean,
[24:13] so
[24:15] women and men
[24:17] always raised children in in history in
[24:21] extended family circles, right?
[24:24] Um, they weren't isolated. And today
[24:26] parents are very isolated. So, you would
[24:30] have your mother staying with you or
[24:31] you'd have your sister staying with you
[24:34] or you'd live in a big house and there'd
[24:35] be people to support you.
[24:37] Um,
[24:38] I started a nonprofit uh recently
[24:41] because I found that so many mothers,
[24:44] it's called Attachment Circle, so many
[24:46] mothers feel so isolated
[24:50] that dealing with the pain and the
[24:51] discomfort of mothering alone is too
[24:54] much for them.
[24:55] So, there is that. So, we live in a very
[24:58] strange society where people are
[25:01] separate from one another in their own
[25:03] houses and apartments and they don't
[25:05] depend on one another cuz dependency is
[25:07] a bad word and but there is also this
[25:11] issue of how are we producing such
[25:14] fragile fragile youth that even the
[25:17] discomfort and the frustration of
[25:19] raising children is too much for them.
[25:22] Is there a big economic component to
[25:24] this as well, right? Because if you're
[25:26] raising children in isolation, the
[25:28] probability that you have
[25:30] disposable income
[25:32] or at least enough money to be able to
[25:34] just stay at home and raise the kids and
[25:36] still maintain any standard of quality
[25:38] standard of life
[25:40] is lower if you're not doing it with a
[25:42] big extended family that can support and
[25:44] and pay for some of those costs.
[25:48] Interestingly, yes and no to your
[25:49] question.
[25:51] Um
[25:53] people who have
[25:55] less economic resources are in general
[25:59] less isolated, but they are also
[26:02] isolated today. You have a lot of single
[26:04] mothers raising children
[26:06] not in an apartment with other family
[26:09] members who've had to move to other
[26:11] cities or countries to make a living
[26:14] um who are really isolated.
[26:17] I I you know, again, it I think it
[26:19] crosses socioeconomic lines. Um
[26:24] but with wealthier people, more affluent
[26:27] people,
[26:28] um
[26:29] they're opting for isolation, many of
[26:32] them. They're buying big houses, they're
[26:34] living in the suburbs, or or they're not
[26:37] wanting to lean on anyone, right? So,
[26:40] we have what I call a family diaspora.
[26:43] It's really what it it is, um
[26:46] which is that people will move away from
[26:49] their families of origin when they have
[26:51] children, which is very bizarre and
[26:53] anti-instinctual. So, the world's become
[26:56] a global place and we can move wherever
[26:58] we want, but doesn't it make common
[27:00] sense? Isn't it a reasonable clause that
[27:02] you would want to move closer to your
[27:05] extended family?
[27:07] Even if they're a pain in the neck,
[27:08] unless they're abusive. Um, because it
[27:12] provides you with support. It provides
[27:14] you with extended family support, but
[27:16] that's not what's happening.
[27:18] People are choosing to live
[27:21] geographically distant from their
[27:23] families of origin and so it's making it
[27:26] harder for families. It's making it
[27:28] harder for women.
[27:30] It's making them feel more isolated. But
[27:32] what if they they want to they've got
[27:33] their own career, they've got their own
[27:35] passions, there are things that they
[27:37] love doing and that means that they have
[27:38] to be working in a major city or they
[27:41] have to be traveling
[27:43] to pursue those things?
[27:44] You just said it. What if they have
[27:48] passions? What if they have a career?
[27:51] The problem is children do best in
[27:53] extended family situations. So, you
[27:56] know, you can have a fabulous career and
[27:58] move far away from your family and when
[28:00] you're young and single and I even call
[28:02] it single when you're married, but don't
[28:04] have children, you're still really
[28:05] single. Um, you know what I say to
[28:08] parents is that
[28:10] your life won't be so fabulous if you
[28:12] have children and you're not present for
[28:15] them
[28:16] physically and emotionally, particularly
[28:18] in the early years, because what happens
[28:20] is they break down and the expression
[28:22] goes that a parent is only as happy as
[28:26] their least happy child.
[28:28] And so, there is no fabulous life if
[28:31] your children are breaking down and
[28:33] that's what families are learning
[28:35] is that, you know, all of that freedom
[28:38] and all that fabulous me time comes at a
[28:42] cost if you have children.
[28:44] So, one would say then, well, I'll just
[28:46] not have children then.
[28:47] And that would be fine. And so, there
[28:50] are a lot of people that are saying
[28:51] today, I don't see the value in being
[28:55] responsible for another human being. And
[28:57] what they're missing out on is the deep
[29:00] and rewarding emotional connection to
[29:03] your children. It's a love like no other
[29:06] love. But if you've had
[29:10] if you've had trauma as a child, if
[29:12] you've had parents who were narcissistic
[29:15] or resented parenting or
[29:18] uh you know, were distracted or mentally
[29:22] ill, you know, you
[29:24] may already have had that trauma that
[29:28] that implies that later it's harder to
[29:31] connect, right? So, those attachment
[29:33] disorders that I was referring to
[29:35] earlier. There's three kinds of
[29:37] attachment disorders. There's the
[29:39] avoidant attachment disorder. So, what
[29:41] does that mean? So, a healthy attachment
[29:43] looks like this.
[29:45] Um when you return home, your child
[29:48] feels so securely attached to you.
[29:51] Meaning, you've gone out for an hour or
[29:53] two for dinner with your spouse. You
[29:56] come home and your baby is happy to see
[29:59] you and the reunion, what we call the
[30:01] reunion, is a beautiful reunion. The
[30:04] baby is joyful and happy and you know,
[30:07] that's healthy attachment. It means that
[30:08] you've made your baby feel so safe and
[30:10] secure because you are there primarily
[30:13] and have prioritized them the majority
[30:14] of the time as the primary attachment
[30:17] figure. That when you come home, your
[30:19] baby welcomes it.
[30:21] But what we're seeing is more and more
[30:23] children developing attachment disorders
[30:25] because their parents are
[30:27] pushing the limits of how much they can
[30:30] leave those babies and putting them in
[30:32] things like institutional care and
[30:34] leaving them for long hours at a time
[30:36] and traveling for their fabulous careers
[30:39] and their fabulous lives at ages when
[30:41] babies really can't tolerate that kind
[30:44] of separation.
[30:45] When a parent comes when the primary
[30:47] attachment figure, usually the mother,
[30:49] comes home and the baby turns away from
[30:52] you and turns toward the babysitter or
[30:56] just turns away.
[30:57] That baby has the beginning of what's
[30:59] called an avoidant attachment disorder.
[31:01] Now, that's correlated later on
[31:04] with things like depression and
[31:07] difficulty forming attachments later on.
[31:11] The next kind of attachment disorder is
[31:14] called an ambivalent attachment disorder
[31:16] and the mother then comes home
[31:19] and the baby clings to the mother for
[31:21] dear life because the internal voice in
[31:24] that baby is my mommy's going to leave
[31:26] me again. So, I have to hold on to her.
[31:28] Now, that baby is fractious and can't be
[31:30] soothed and will not let go of that
[31:33] mother, you know, holding on for dear
[31:35] life. What I call like the rhesus
[31:37] monkeys did to the wire cages, right?
[31:40] And that's correlated later on with
[31:42] anxiety in youth.
[31:47] The disorganized attachment disorder is
[31:49] different than the other two in that the
[31:51] other two have a strategy. So, think of
[31:54] an attachment disorder as a strategy. A
[31:56] child who's left for too many hours by
[31:58] their parent or whose parent is
[32:00] physically present but emotionally
[32:02] checked out. That baby has to cope, has
[32:05] to have a strategy.
[32:07] Turning away from the mother is a
[32:08] strategy and the internal narrative is
[32:10] my mommy isn't present for me, can't
[32:13] isn't isn't here for me, won't won't be
[32:15] there for me. I can't trust my
[32:16] environment. And that baby says, "And
[32:19] I'm going to have to
[32:20] cope on my own."
[32:22] What we call learned helplessness.
[32:24] Um the ambivalent attachment disorder,
[32:28] you know, that baby is the strategy is,
[32:31] you know, I'm going to hold on because
[32:33] if I don't hold on, she's going to leave
[32:34] again.
[32:36] Disorganized attachment disorder is the
[32:38] hardest to treat um
[32:40] because the baby has no strategy. So,
[32:42] the baby cycles through many strategies.
[32:45] The baby will go from clinging to
[32:48] avoiding to being enraged and even to
[32:51] slapping or hitting the mother and then
[32:53] cycling through again. Um and that baby
[32:56] that develops a disorganized attachment
[32:59] disorder, those are more Those babies
[33:01] it's correlated later with borderline
[33:03] personality disorder. And we're seeing a
[33:05] huge rise in borderline personality
[33:08] disorders. And those are the kids who
[33:10] are cutting themselves, who are trying
[33:11] to commit suicide.
[33:14] Um we have a a mental illness crisis the
[33:17] likes of which we've never seen in
[33:19] history. And it has everything to do
[33:22] with how we're raising our children. You
[33:24] seem pissed off under that calm
[33:25] demeanor. Pissed off?
[33:27] Yes, I suppose I am. I'm not pissed off
[33:30] at the people. I'm pissed off at a
[33:32] society that is lying. We're not really
[33:36] educating or telling parents the truth.
[33:40] So, there's four attachment disorders.
[33:43] Avoidant, secure, ambivalent,
[33:45] disorganized.
[33:46] Well, one secure isn't a disorder. So,
[33:48] there's secure and then there's three
[33:50] attachment disorders. Yeah.
[33:51] Avoidant, ambivalent, disorganized.
[33:53] Yes.
[33:54] How does that manifest when you're an
[33:55] adult? So, how would I know cuz you
[33:58] know, I can relate to some of these and
[33:59] I'm wondering how that would then
[34:00] manifest in my relationships in my life
[34:02] as an adult.
[34:03] Outside of the obvious mental health,
[34:05] you know, situations. So, avoidant An
[34:08] avoidant attachment disorder would be
[34:10] someone who um
[34:12] can't form meaningful and deep
[34:15] connections, can't
[34:17] commit, has difficulty committing, has
[34:19] difficulty trusting
[34:21] in the intimacy and the the depth of
[34:24] intimacy in a relationship. An
[34:27] ambivalent attachment disorder would
[34:29] would be someone who's highly highly
[34:31] anxious.
[34:33] Um someone who clings to you, uh calls
[34:36] you, maybe uh a woman you dated in the
[34:39] past who called you five times a day to
[34:41] check on you, was worried that you'd be
[34:43] the little fish that swam away.
[34:45] Um and suffocate. They suffocate the
[34:47] people they love because they're afraid
[34:49] to let go.
[34:50] Um disorganized attachment, borderline
[34:53] personality disorders, they tend to be
[34:55] very emotionally volatile.
[34:58] Um there's a lot of anger there, and um
[35:01] and there's a lot of self-harm,
[35:03] self-harming behavior there.
[35:05] Do they end up
[35:07] attracting
[35:09] a certain attachment style? So, if I'm
[35:11] an avoidant, do I then end up attracting
[35:13] avoidants, or do I
[35:14] is there any research on that, on how we
[35:16] then date? I'm guessing secures go for
[35:18] secures. Yeah, secures Well, if you're
[35:21] healthy, you're attracted to
[35:22] reciprocally healthy relationships, and
[35:24] you trust your environment, so you trust
[35:26] in loving relationships, and um
[35:30] avoidants sometimes are attracted to
[35:32] avoidant
[35:34] people because there's no conflict
[35:36] there. So, in other words, someone who
[35:38] can't commit with someone also who can't
[35:40] commit.
[35:41] Um that can break down, though, at some
[35:43] point. So, remember that these are
[35:45] pathological defenses. So, you know, we
[35:48] use the word defense because it means to
[35:49] protect one, right?
[35:52] And and defenses help us until they no
[35:54] longer help us. And so, we say
[35:56] attachment disorders are pathological
[35:58] defenses, meaning they don't usually
[36:01] last a lifetime, they break down at some
[36:04] point.
[36:05] And so, you might be with another
[36:07] avoidant attachment disordered person,
[36:10] but at some point one of you breaks
[36:13] down, and then realizes that you need
[36:15] the other.
[36:16] And then,
[36:18] you know, then you're with in a
[36:19] relationship with someone who can't give
[36:20] back. So, yeah, as we say, like levels
[36:24] of water meet. So, people will be
[36:26] attracted to one another often of the
[36:28] same ilk, but but it isn't necessarily a
[36:32] healthy relationship.
[36:34] And of all these four attachment styles,
[36:36] who do you think which attachment style
[36:38] from in your opinion and then from your
[36:39] observations and the people that you've
[36:41] seen is most likely to have a successful
[36:44] and then also unsuccessful relationship?
[36:47] Oh, well, secure attachment will have
[36:50] a successful I mean, secure people with
[36:52] secure attachment will be drawn to
[36:55] healthy, reciprocal, loving
[36:58] um deep connections because they've had
[37:01] a deep and loving connection with their
[37:03] mother. So, remember I said that you
[37:05] it's only after 3 years of age that you
[37:07] internalize the feeling of security.
[37:10] And where you internalize the feeling
[37:12] that the world
[37:14] is a safe place and you can trust the
[37:16] people in it. And you can trust to love
[37:19] another person.
[37:21] And so, you know, we we throw that word
[37:23] trust around, but we don't realize that
[37:25] it comes from the very beginnings of our
[37:27] development.
[37:29] When we don't trust others,
[37:31] it's generally because we couldn't trust
[37:34] those that we were to depend upon when
[37:37] we were
[37:38] at our most vulnerable stage. And what
[37:40] about the other the alternative? So, if
[37:43] which of these attachment styles is
[37:44] least likely to have
[37:46] successful relationships and
[37:48] That's disorganized, yeah. They have a
[37:50] very hard time forming relationships,
[37:52] holding on to relationships, um
[37:55] Yeah, I would say it's it's they're the
[37:57] most complicated to treat and they're
[38:00] also the most complicated in terms of,
[38:03] you know, being able to have successful
[38:05] relationships in the future.
[38:07] Uh I was wondering as you were speaking
[38:09] whether if I have more kids, so if I
[38:11] have 10 young kids Yeah. is there a
[38:13] higher probability that of neglect in
[38:15] those kids because I do if if I'm a
[38:17] mother, I just don't have time for
[38:19] all of these kids at the same time. They
[38:21] can't all be on my chest at the same
[38:22] time. Yeah, it's it's a good question.
[38:24] Well, there's something in the
[38:25] developing world called maternal
[38:27] depletion syndrome, which is that
[38:28] mothers can actually die in the
[38:30] developing world of having too many
[38:31] children in too short a period of time.
[38:34] Uh they get depleted physically, but
[38:36] they also get depleted emotionally.
[38:38] I'm going to say it right now so
[38:39] everybody can hear it who's watching
[38:41] this. Having children
[38:43] is stressful.
[38:44] It is frustrating.
[38:47] It does require that you are sleepless
[38:49] for the first 5 years. It requires that
[38:52] you can tolerate a lot of discomfort and
[38:54] frustration.
[38:56] So, if there was a job description,
[38:58] first it would say the most joyful
[39:02] uh enriching
[39:04] thing you can do in your entire life.
[39:06] But, what comes with that to foster
[39:10] healthy development is frustration, lack
[39:12] of sleep, stress, uh discomfort. And so,
[39:17] that should be part of the job
[39:18] description.
[39:20] Yeah, it seems to be such an important
[39:22] principle for life generally that
[39:24] everything has an
[39:25] a trade-off. And I think it was Einstein
[39:27] that said uh for every force there's
[39:29] like an equal and opposite counterforce
[39:31] or something to to to that effect. And a
[39:33] lot of people are
[39:35] choosing not to make the decision to
[39:37] have kids. I was looking at some stats
[39:38] around this. The European Union
[39:40] witnessed only 3.8 million births in
[39:42] 2022, nearly half the number recorded
[39:46] six decades ago,
[39:47] marking one of the lowest birth rates in
[39:49] history.
[39:50] France, for example, known for its
[39:52] robust family policies
[39:53] has seen a decrease from 830,000
[39:57] children born in 2010 to just 670,000
[40:01] in 2023, the lowest since World War II.
[40:05] And this is a huge global trend across
[40:08] especially countries that have a lot of
[40:09] money. It is. So, I speak at a big
[40:12] conference called the Alliance for
[40:13] Responsible Citizenship, and they talk
[40:15] about a lot of these alarming dropping
[40:19] birth rates. The truth is though that
[40:22] as countries become more developed birth
[40:25] rates do decline to a certain degree.
[40:27] That has to do with economics some of
[40:29] it. But there's a trend that's happening
[40:31] that's worse than this which is people
[40:34] it's not that they're having less
[40:36] children which actually you know,
[40:38] everybody has their own limits in terms
[40:42] of their capacity to give and to love
[40:45] and so for some people maybe one child
[40:47] is enough. For other people five
[40:49] children isn't enough meaning they have
[40:51] so much inside of them to give, right?
[40:54] But the alarming thing for me isn't the
[40:58] dropping birth rates due to economics,
[41:00] you know, so maybe people aren't having
[41:02] 10 children like they used to they're
[41:04] having three children or two children,
[41:07] right?
[41:08] The alarming thing for me is that people
[41:11] are not having children.
[41:13] That's more alarming to me because
[41:15] that's more a sign not of a country
[41:18] developing
[41:19] but of a country and a society of a
[41:22] modern society which does not see the
[41:25] value
[41:27] in
[41:28] in raising children and having deep and
[41:32] loving relationships be a priority
[41:35] in your life.
[41:37] Those people would say I have deep and
[41:38] loving relationships with my partner,
[41:40] with my dog, with my uncle, auntie,
[41:42] friends, etc. It's different and why is
[41:46] it different? It's a good question. It's
[41:47] different because
[41:49] in the end your relationship with your
[41:51] partner or with your auntie or with your
[41:54] dog isn't the same
[41:56] level of dependency. The ability to care
[42:00] for another human being
[42:02] to allow another human being to be
[42:05] dependent on you to devote to that human
[42:08] being
[42:09] is a growing transforming experience for
[42:12] human beings. One would say that
[42:15] not sure I completely buy this fully
[42:18] because but Jordan Peterson I think has
[42:21] said, I think it was Jordan who said
[42:22] that you can't fully become an adult
[42:26] if you don't have a child. Now, I'm not
[42:28] sure I would go that far because there's
[42:29] some people who can't have children. But
[42:32] I do think that there is something
[42:35] in terms of developmentally on an adult
[42:37] development level
[42:39] that transforms you, that is meant to
[42:43] to transform you in being generative and
[42:45] having children. Again, it's not for
[42:47] everyone and I do say this that um
[42:51] I'm not part of the pro-natality
[42:53] movement where I say everybody should
[42:55] have children. I don't think everybody
[42:57] should have children.
[42:58] But I do think that if you're going to
[43:00] have children
[43:02] then you need to look deeply at your own
[43:07] upbringing and your own losses and your
[43:09] own early traumas before you bring them
[43:12] into this world so you can repair
[43:15] whatever it is you need to repair and
[43:17] not uh create what we call generational
[43:21] expression of things like attachment
[43:23] disorders and mental illness and
[43:25] Cuz a lot of people are struggling now
[43:27] to have kids, even those that want to.
[43:28] Yeah. Um I was looking at some stats and
[43:30] there's a global prevalence of
[43:31] infertility.
[43:33] Approximately 18% of adults worldwide,
[43:36] about one in six has experienced
[43:37] infertility at some point in their
[43:38] lives. Yeah. Between 2015 and 2019,
[43:42] about roughly 15% of US women aged 15 to
[43:45] 49 experienced impaired fertility and in
[43:47] the UK, research indicates that one in
[43:49] eight women listening to this now and
[43:51] one in 10 men aged 16 to 74 have
[43:54] experienced infertility, which is
[43:55] defined as unsuccessfully attempting
[43:57] pregnancy for a year or longer.
[44:01] And I've spoken to a lot of people
[44:02] actually that have tried to have kids.
[44:04] Yeah. For years, two years.
[44:06] It's very sad when want children and
[44:08] they can't have children. It is
[44:10] incredibly sad. When you think about
[44:12] what's contributing to that, what how do
[44:14] you diagnose that infertility challenge?
[44:16] There are a lot of theories. Some are
[44:18] environmental. Some are the fact that
[44:20] we're delaying having children. We're
[44:22] lying to women.
[44:24] And to men. We're telling them, "Freeze
[44:26] your eggs." In fact, this is a little
[44:28] disturbing. I'll tell you about this.
[44:31] That law firms now are um
[44:34] paying for the freezing of their young
[44:36] female associates' eggs.
[44:39] I find that disturbing.
[44:41] Um saying, "Freeze your eggs. Work
[44:44] really hard for us. Yeah, you can have
[44:46] children later." And the truth is a lot
[44:50] of them can't. Because when you freeze
[44:52] eggs, it's not a guarantee of fertility.
[44:56] It's not a guarantee that those eggs
[44:57] will turn into embryos. It's not a
[44:59] guarantee that those embryos will turn
[45:01] into babies. So, there's the age piece.
[45:04] Um There is also and there's the
[45:07] environmental piece. There is also the
[45:08] stress piece, which we are not talking
[45:11] about. Um there's a component to getting
[45:14] pregnant that is about stress. We have
[45:17] more stress
[45:19] on both men and women. You know, it used
[45:21] to be that men died sooner because they
[45:23] had more stress. But now I think it's
[45:25] evened out the odds. I think women may
[45:26] die sooner because they have the stress
[45:29] of working and raising children for the
[45:31] most part. Um but the point is that that
[45:34] uh
[45:35] the stress that
[45:37] young adults face because they're trying
[45:40] to you know,
[45:42] we should talk about some of the other
[45:43] myths. What's another myth? We'll weave
[45:45] it through this talk. Another myth is
[45:48] you can do everything all at the same
[45:51] time and do it well.
[45:53] Myth. That's a big myth. You can't.
[45:56] You can't have a fabulous career
[46:00] working full-time and traveling and
[46:02] being fabulous and raise healthy
[46:05] children. The good news is life is long.
[46:08] You may live till 120 like Moses and I
[46:12] think of your generation, you're younger
[46:13] than me, but um
[46:15] I think you probably will live well over
[46:17] 100. Um and so what that means is you
[46:20] have many, many, many, many, many, many
[46:24] years to have a fabulous career when
[46:26] your children don't need you so much,
[46:28] but you have a very small window
[46:31] to create that emotional security for
[46:35] your children that will be the core of
[46:37] them. You know, we talk a lot about your
[46:38] physical core and core training.
[46:41] This is your emotional core.
[46:43] This is the emotional core of human
[46:46] beings, attachment security and a
[46:48] feeling of safety that you can rely on
[46:51] the people who you need most in the
[46:54] world to be there when you need them.
[46:57] That is your emotional core.
[46:59] How did you manage? You're a mother of
[47:01] three. You've raised three very
[47:03] wonderful, well-adjusted children. Yeah.
[47:05] But you're also successful. Yep. You
[47:07] have books. You you're you're traveling
[47:09] around the world, you said.
[47:11] So I'm a good example.
[47:12] Um I had a career when I was in my 20s.
[47:16] Um
[47:18] and I got married when I was
[47:22] I met my husband when I was 27 and I got
[47:25] married when I was just shy of 30 or I
[47:27] was 30.
[47:28] Um and then we had children in our 30s.
[47:33] Uh so before we had children, I was
[47:35] working I was seeing something like 40
[47:37] hours of patients a week.
[47:40] And I was working into the wee hours of
[47:42] the night. I would work till 11:00 at
[47:43] night coming home exhausted.
[47:46] Then we had children, but it was an
[47:47] agreement that we had that when we had
[47:49] babies, I would take a good long period
[47:52] off
[47:53] and then really go back very, very, very
[47:56] minimally. And I had the kind of career
[47:58] by choice
[48:00] that I could have control over and be it
[48:03] could be flexible and I could control
[48:05] it.
[48:06] And so, I took 6 months off with each
[48:09] child.
[48:10] And then after 6 months, only went back
[48:13] to work an hour and a half a day, 5 days
[48:15] a week.
[48:17] So, just we had an agreement, my husband
[48:19] and I, which is it would be just enough
[48:21] to pay a mother's helper, a nanny.
[48:23] And so, and we did without in those
[48:26] years. We did you know, second homes. We
[48:29] did without fancy clothes. We did
[48:31] without
[48:32] the other things that many of our peers
[48:34] were getting and traveling
[48:38] and doing. We said, "What's important to
[48:41] us is that we pair down, not expand now.
[48:44] This is We're expanding as parents, so
[48:47] we want to pair down materially. Life is
[48:50] long and you can have a successful
[48:52] career." Some of the women that I
[48:53] interview for my book
[48:55] are women who didn't even start their
[48:57] careers until they were in their 40s
[49:00] after they had children that were older.
[49:03] Could it have worked if your husband
[49:05] stayed home instead of you?
[49:06] In your view? Because I'm trying to
[49:08] understand if you're saying that dads
[49:09] don't need to be as there, present as
[49:12] much as the mother.
[49:14] They have to be there in a different
[49:15] way.
[49:17] In the early days, men don't breastfeed.
[49:20] So, that's the first thing. Unless you
[49:21] can show me a man who has grown breasts
[49:23] and can actually breastfeed, maybe it's
[49:25] coming. I don't know.
[49:27] But for now,
[49:29] um women's bodies connect them to their
[49:32] babies. They connect them through birth.
[49:34] They connect them through breastfeeding.
[49:37] There is a physical component and a
[49:39] hormonal component to infancy and
[49:42] motherhood. And there really is a
[49:44] difference in the way that mothers
[49:46] respond to babies and fathers respond to
[49:49] babies. Now,
[49:51] when do fathers become really important?
[49:54] It's not that the father isn't important
[49:56] to give the mother a break or to bond
[49:59] with the baby or to bathe the baby, but
[50:02] what that baby needs is that attachment
[50:05] security to that primary attachment
[50:07] figure. So, the mother. Usually the
[50:09] mother. Sometimes it's the father, but
[50:11] usually the mother. Fathers with their
[50:13] playful tactile stimulation,
[50:16] they become really important when
[50:18] children become mobile.
[50:20] When children start to crawl and toddle,
[50:23] when they're around 18 months to 2 years
[50:26] old, fathers become incredibly exciting.
[50:31] And they're really important. So, when
[50:32] fathers aren't around in those days,
[50:35] when children are starting to explore
[50:37] the world, those children have a harder
[50:39] time separating from mothers. So, it's
[50:42] really important to have what we say,
[50:43] the yin and the yang. What we are doing
[50:46] now is we are
[50:48] um not prioritizing attachment security,
[50:52] which is the foundation for then healthy
[50:54] separation. And when healthy separation
[50:57] starts, fathers are critical.
[51:00] When you have another child, a second
[51:02] child, fathers are critical because
[51:04] fathers seduce the older child. They
[51:07] say, "Come on, let's go out and play.
[51:08] Let's go kick the soccer ball. Let's go
[51:10] to the swing set." And they give a space
[51:12] to the mother with the next baby. They
[51:15] help the older children to grow up.
[51:18] Earlier on, you mentioned a study that I
[51:19] read about when I was studying
[51:21] psychology once upon a time, which is
[51:22] the rhesus the rhesus monkey study with
[51:25] the wire mother. For anybody that's
[51:27] never heard about that study, I think
[51:28] it's quite important to understand the
[51:29] profound impact that
[51:31] touch and um
[51:33] Well, that was an attachment study.
[51:35] Yeah, what was it what's the what's
[51:36] touch called from a in a sci- in a
[51:38] science world? Skin-to-skin.
[51:39] Skin-to-skin.
[51:41] Can you give me an overview of that
[51:43] study and what it showed for people that
[51:44] aren't aware of it?
[51:45] Well, they took these baby rhesus
[51:47] monkeys and they they let some be with
[51:50] the mothers and the mothers nurtured
[51:52] those babies and those babies became
[51:55] healthily attached and secure and those
[51:58] were the healthy emotionally healthy
[52:00] babies.
[52:01] Then they gave um another subset of
[52:04] monkeys um
[52:07] a wire mother covered with a piece of
[52:10] cloth or fur or something.
[52:13] And those babies became very neurotic,
[52:16] but at least they were clinging. They
[52:18] became like the ambivalent attachment
[52:19] babies because there was no response
[52:21] from the mother, but at least they were
[52:22] holding on to this mother.
[52:24] And then they gave and these babies
[52:26] became very neurotic and then they gave
[52:28] this subset of babies nothing.
[52:32] And those babies literally lost their
[52:34] minds.
[52:36] And um
[52:37] I mean, there are other studies which
[52:39] are more recent than that. That's quite
[52:41] an old study. There There is a
[52:42] researcher named Michael Meany. He did a
[52:45] study on licking and grooming. Animals
[52:47] who lick and groom their young, meaning
[52:49] are nurturing skin-to-skin, lick and
[52:51] groom.
[52:52] Uh in human terms, that would be
[52:53] holding, touching, loving, skin-to-skin.
[52:57] Those uh if if a mother licked and
[53:00] groomed her young,
[53:02] that baby would become more resilient to
[53:05] stress in the future.
[53:07] The babies who were not licked and
[53:08] groomed by their mothers
[53:10] become became less resilient to stress
[53:12] in the future. In addition, the babies
[53:15] who were more resilient to stress
[53:17] because their mothers had licked and
[53:19] groomed them passed down generationally
[53:21] the ability to lick and groom the next
[53:23] generation.
[53:25] What happened to the babies who weren't
[53:27] licked and groomed? Guess what happened?
[53:29] They didn't pass it down. Right. And
[53:31] that's what's happening to humans today.
[53:35] If we don't lick and groom our babies, I
[53:37] mean, you know, take it for whatever.
[53:40] Um if we don't lick and groom our
[53:42] babies, it we don't pass on resilience
[53:46] to stress and adversity, but we also
[53:48] don't pass on the desire to lick and
[53:50] groom your to have babies.
[53:52] Your story going back to your story
[53:53] which we're talking about, are there any
[53:55] areas of privilege that you need to
[53:57] acknowledge that someone else listening
[53:59] to this now goes, "Yeah, but that's a
[54:00] right for you." Because
[54:02] you know, maybe someone who didn't have
[54:04] a partner there
[54:05] or someone who
[54:08] is in a
[54:10] difficult economic situation extremely
[54:13] difficult economic situation living in
[54:15] the projects in Harlem or something. I
[54:19] really want to I'm saying this because
[54:21] Well, it's not the mothers in the
[54:22] projects in Harlem cuz I'll tell you the
[54:24] mothers in the projects in Harlem
[54:26] stay home with their babies. That's
[54:28] what's interesting. Very poor people in
[54:30] America.
[54:32] So, let me just say
[54:33] I love America. America sucks.
[54:36] And I'll tell you why America sucks from
[54:37] my perspective. And I say this
[54:39] internationally. I go around the world
[54:40] saying, "America sucks." And I'm going
[54:43] to tell you why.
[54:44] Um, we are the only country in the world
[54:47] other than Papua New Guinea who does not
[54:48] have a paid
[54:50] parental maternity leave.
[54:52] We do not have paid maternity leave.
[54:55] Nobody cares about children.
[54:57] They care about the GDP and the bottom
[55:00] line. And the people who are out there
[55:01] talking about this stuff are economists
[55:04] saying, "Women have to work work work
[55:06] for the economy." Nobody cares about
[55:08] children. Because if we cared about
[55:10] children
[55:11] our tax money would be
[55:14] in paid leave. Not for 3 months. Not for
[55:17] 6 months. For at least a year. In
[55:19] Hungary they have 3 years. Slovenia,
[55:22] Slovakia,
[55:24] uh, Estonia has 3 years. Hungary I think
[55:26] has 2 years of paid leave. Sweden, I
[55:29] have some issues with Sweden, but Sweden
[55:31] has 14 months.
[55:32] Sweden after 14 months makes women go
[55:35] back to work full full full time and put
[55:36] them in institutional care and all those
[55:38] babies are breaking down.
[55:40] So, 14 months isn't even enough. So, but
[55:43] if we could even get to a civilized
[55:45] place of 1 year of paid leave in this
[55:47] country
[55:49] and then the next 2 years some way that
[55:52] parents could be
[55:54] complemented so they could work
[55:56] part-time, supplemented so they could
[55:58] work part-time.
[55:59] Um you know, I'm a I'm a reasonable,
[56:02] realistic person. I know this country is
[56:04] never going to go for 3 years of paid
[56:06] leave even though I would love them to.
[56:08] I also know that this country isn't
[56:10] going to go for an entitlement called
[56:12] paid leave because that's the kind of
[56:14] country we are. We talk a big game, but
[56:15] we don't want to put our money where our
[56:16] mouth is.
[56:18] There is the possibility, now that the
[56:20] Republicans are in
[56:22] of a creative solution
[56:25] which is potentially using things like
[56:28] social security in advance, borrowing
[56:31] from your social security. So, I'm a mom
[56:35] and I say, "Ah, to stay home, I can
[56:38] borrow from my social security for a
[56:41] year
[56:42] and then work a year or two longer
[56:46] in my life." Wouldn't you say that most
[56:48] women who wanted to stay home with their
[56:50] babies would say, "I'll work longer so I
[56:52] can stay home with my baby." There are
[56:54] ways to creatively deal with it. Um
[56:57] from my perspective, this is what's
[56:58] going on. People on the left will not
[57:01] compromise. They'll only do an
[57:04] entitlement called paid leave, but they
[57:05] only are asking for it for 3 to 6
[57:07] months. After that, they want women back
[57:10] in the workforce and institutional
[57:11] daycare. So, I'm not on the left.
[57:14] Um people on the right talk a lot about
[57:16] family. They're the party of the family
[57:18] now. But they do not want tax dollars to
[57:21] go into paid leave. They They don't like
[57:23] the entitlements that already exist and
[57:25] they don't want to add any more.
[57:26] And so, the only way they're going to
[57:28] give it to women and men is if
[57:31] they put skin in the game. Mhm.
[57:33] This is the country we live in. Again,
[57:35] I'm a realist.
[57:37] I think in any way that we can give
[57:40] families the choice to care for their
[57:43] own children, particularly in the early
[57:45] years, we will create a population
[57:48] of healthier children. How do we know
[57:51] that more paid leave equals better
[57:53] children, less strain on the health care
[57:56] system in terms of mental health,
[57:57] mortality, whatever it might be? How do
[57:59] you make a statistical or a scientific
[58:01] research-backed case that if we had 3
[58:04] years of paid leave in the United States
[58:06] or in the UK, or Australia, Canada,
[58:08] wherever, that the it would be a net
[58:10] positive for society outside of it just
[58:12] being an opinion?
[58:14] Well, the research shows the
[58:16] longitudinal attachment research shows
[58:18] that children who are insecurely
[58:20] attached at 12 months of age, 20 years
[58:23] later are insecurely 80% of them are are
[58:26] insecurely attached and suffer from
[58:28] mental disorders.
[58:31] That's what the longitudinal attachment
[58:32] research says. So, we now have decades
[58:37] of
[58:38] basically children were followed from
[58:40] when they were infants. And the ones who
[58:42] were securely attached, 20 years later
[58:44] are still securely attached and doing
[58:46] great. And the ones who were insecurely
[58:47] attached, most still insecurely attached
[58:51] and it's tied and correlated to all of
[58:53] these mental illness conditions, right?
[58:55] So, there's a lot of research to show
[58:57] what attachment security does for
[58:59] children in the long run.
[59:01] So, you know, you're asking a question
[59:04] about
[59:05] I mean, I suppose you could take your
[59:07] paid leave and go play
[59:10] soccer in the park and go play tennis
[59:12] and I don't know, like play cards with
[59:14] your friend I mean, you know,
[59:15] how can I say how people are going to
[59:17] use their paid leave? But if your paid
[59:19] leave is being used to be home with your
[59:21] child, then it's going to benefit your
[59:23] child.
[59:24] So many of the the guests that I speak
[59:25] to on this podcast, especially those
[59:27] that become incredibly successful um
[59:30] athletes, entrepreneurs, whoever.
[59:33] They often have some form of neglect in
[59:35] their past. Mhm. Richard Williams,
[59:37] Serena and Venus Williams' father, he um
[59:40] he was very intense with them from a
[59:42] very young age and he's raised two of
[59:44] the greatest tennis players in history.
[59:45] Joe Jackson was strict and off- often
[59:47] controversial with Michael, who went on
[59:49] to become the King of Pop. Earl Woods,
[59:51] who was Tiger Woods' father, was very um
[59:55] intense in his coaching and mentoring
[59:56] style, which led him to become great and
[59:58] obviously Beyoncé is the other example I
[60:00] gave, who Matthew managed Matthew, which
[60:02] is uh Matthew and Tina, who were parents
[60:05] to Beyoncé, managed Destiny's Child and
[60:07] Beyoncé's solo career, meticulously
[60:09] shaping them into a global superstar.
[60:10] So, parents think, you know, I want to
[60:13] raise
[60:14] kids that are superstars. I I want I
[60:16] want my kids to be great.
[60:18] I'm going to say right now, I don't
[60:20] recommend that as a professional. Okay.
[60:23] I'm just saying. So, I can't comment on
[60:26] a lot of those people because I could
[60:27] get in a lot of trouble for commenting
[60:28] on a lot of those people, but I will say
[60:30] that amongst those people,
[60:32] there
[60:34] is controversy, meaning
[60:37] at least one of those parents, and I
[60:39] don't know the history of the others,
[60:41] was abusive. And so, you could say that
[60:43] narcissism
[60:45] is abusive to children. When we project
[60:48] our needs and desires and likes
[60:53] and who we are onto our children, we're
[60:55] not letting them authentically be
[60:57] themselves. The greatest gift you can
[60:59] give your child is to see your child as
[61:02] an authentic individual
[61:05] who is
[61:06] an individual and themselves
[61:09] and not to see them as a mini-me.
[61:11] Um when you start architecting their
[61:15] life, there's a good chance you're going
[61:17] to lose that child emotionally at some
[61:19] point. They're either going to hate you,
[61:22] they're They may be successful in their
[61:24] careers. They may have terrible personal
[61:27] lives. They may be narcissistic parents
[61:30] themselves. So,
[61:31] I don't recommend that school of
[61:34] thought. What I do recommend is if your
[61:36] child shows promise in something that
[61:39] they also seem to love and have a drive
[61:43] to be good at, then you can support that
[61:46] drive. Just make sure to keep yourself
[61:48] in check along the way to make sure that
[61:51] they are driving it,
[61:53] not you.
[61:55] Health is a huge focus for me in 2025,
[61:57] and I'm not just talking about eating
[61:59] right and exercising. I'm talking about
[62:00] my recovery, too. I'm halfway through 60
[62:03] workouts in 60 days, and to help my body
[62:06] recover, I've been using a health gadget
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[63:00] ADHD. Yeah. Okay. I don't feel like I
[63:04] don't even have to ask a question here,
[63:05] but just to set the stage, the reason
[63:07] why I'm so compelled by this is just
[63:09] this
[63:10] I have to say it, the shocking rise in
[63:13] diagnosis and prescriptions over the
[63:15] last
[63:16] 10 years. Uh between 20 2000 and 2018,
[63:20] ADHD diagnoses in the UK rose
[63:23] approximately 20-fold.
[63:25] Yes.
[63:26] Among boys aged 10 to 16, diagnosis
[63:28] increased from 1% roughly to um about
[63:30] 3.5% in 2018.
[63:33] And in men aged 18 to 29, there was a
[63:35] nearly 50-fold increase in ADHD
[63:38] prescriptions during the same period.
[63:40] And the same applies to the United
[63:41] States, where an estimated 15.5 million
[63:43] adults in the US have been diagnosed
[63:45] with ADHD. Approximately one in nine US
[63:49] children have been diagnosed with ADHD
[63:51] at some point, with 10.5% having a
[63:54] current diagnosis. It
[63:56] I don't know where ADHD was, but the
[63:58] conversation around it, the
[63:59] prescriptions, the diagnosis seem to
[64:01] have really surged into culture in a
[64:03] really, really big way.
[64:05] What's going on?
[64:06] So, ADHD was one of the factors that
[64:08] drove me to write Write Being There, um
[64:11] because I was seeing this huge uptick in
[64:13] ADHD diagnosis and children being
[64:15] medicated so, so early. Do you know what
[64:18] the fight or flight reaction is? That's
[64:20] when the
[64:22] sympathetic nervous system
[64:24] starts to kick into action and Yes. So,
[64:28] well, it's basically our evolutionary
[64:30] response to uh predatory threat. So, if
[64:34] a saber-tooth tiger was chasing you,
[64:38] you either stood and fought,
[64:40] fight,
[64:42] or you ran for your life, flight.
[64:46] So, when our children are under stress,
[64:50] they go into
[64:51] fight
[64:52] or flight.
[64:54] So, one of the first signs that a child
[64:57] is under stress that they cannot manage
[65:00] is when they become aggressive in
[65:02] school. They hit, they bite, they throw
[65:05] chairs.
[65:06] Um they have trouble,
[65:09] you know, socially in
[65:12] daycare or preschool or even in school.
[65:16] Or they become distracted, which is the
[65:19] flight part of fight or flight.
[65:22] So, what's happening is their nervous
[65:24] systems, the stress regulating part of
[65:26] their brain is getting turned on. So, we
[65:29] say that the stress regulating part of
[65:31] their brain has to do with a little
[65:33] almond-shaped part of the brain called
[65:35] the amygdala. It's a very primitive part
[65:36] of the brain, very old part of the
[65:38] brain.
[65:39] And it regulates stress throughout our
[65:41] lives. It helps us to manage it.
[65:44] What we know is that part of the brain
[65:45] is supposed to remain offline
[65:48] for the first year to 3 years, which is
[65:51] why mothers wear babies on their bodies.
[65:53] It's why babies stay close to their
[65:56] mothers in the first 3 years
[65:58] to keep the amygdala quiet and only
[66:02] incrementally incrementally expose
[66:04] children to stress and frustration that
[66:07] they can manage. So, imagine taking
[66:09] small bites of it so you can digest it,
[66:12] right?
[66:13] And your mother's there to help you
[66:14] digest the stress.
[66:16] What we're doing now by separating
[66:19] mothers and babies, by putting babies
[66:21] into day care with strangers,
[66:24] um is by sleep training babies, all
[66:26] these weird things that we're doing to
[66:28] babies is we're turning the amygdala on.
[66:32] We're making it active precociously, too
[66:35] early. What happens when the amygdala is
[66:38] activated too early is it becomes very
[66:41] active and very large very quickly.
[66:44] The problem is then it shrivels up and
[66:47] burns out also
[66:50] because
[66:51] it cannot manage that kind of stress so
[66:53] early. When it ceases to be functional,
[66:56] it ceases to be functional for a
[66:58] lifetime.
[67:00] And so, it's very important to protect
[67:03] you know, what's the expression? The
[67:04] family jewels. It's very These are the
[67:07] family jewels in the brain of a baby.
[67:09] This is the jewel, the amygdala. You
[67:11] want to keep the stress to a an absolute
[67:14] minimum in the first year, which is why
[67:16] sleep training is dangerous.
[67:18] It's why letting babies cry it out, it's
[67:21] why putting babies into daycare, it's
[67:22] why leaving babies for hours on end when
[67:25] they're so so very fragile
[67:28] um is so bad for their brains because it
[67:31] gets the cortisol flowing, which is the
[67:33] stress hormone, but it makes this part
[67:35] of the brain very active, so it grows
[67:37] grows grows and then pff
[67:39] and ceases to be functional in the
[67:41] future.
[67:42] Like a PTSD response.
[67:45] So, what we know is that these children
[67:47] are in hypervigilant
[67:49] states of stress. ADHD children
[67:52] ADHD children. Hypervigilant states of
[67:55] stress.
[67:56] If you stay in a hypervigilant state of
[67:59] stress long enough, you go into a
[68:01] hypovigilant
[68:03] state of stress, which then causes
[68:05] depression.
[68:07] So, what we have now are not disorders.
[68:10] So, there was a whole movement to take
[68:13] the D off of ADHD
[68:16] cuz it's not a disorder.
[68:18] It is a stress response. And instead of
[68:21] asking the right questions, which are,
[68:23] "Okay, what's causing the stress? How do
[68:26] we make sure that our children are not
[68:28] exposed to this kind of stress because
[68:30] they're going into fight or flight?"
[68:32] So, the nervous system, as you said, the
[68:34] brain has an on switch and an off
[68:37] switch. The on switch to stress is the
[68:40] amygdala, the hippocampus is the off
[68:41] switch. And you'd say the stress
[68:44] response is in a negative feedback loop.
[68:47] It's it's it's actually important. Like,
[68:49] in other words, if a saber-tooth tiger
[68:51] is chasing you, very important that you
[68:53] can activate, right? Run or fight.
[68:55] So,
[68:56] the stress response is supposed to be
[68:58] short term.
[69:00] It's supposed to be not It's supposed to
[69:01] be acute rather than chronic. So, we can
[69:05] kind of manifest it. We can
[69:07] activate it. But then it's supposed to
[69:10] be turned off by the turn off switch,
[69:12] the hippocampus. What we're seeing in
[69:13] children's brains is that the amygdala
[69:17] is growing very precociously large and
[69:20] the hippocampus, which is the off
[69:21] switch, is very small.
[69:24] So, we have this problem. As we say,
[69:26] Houston, we have a problem. We have an
[69:28] on switch going full speed, gas no
[69:31] brakes, and no off switch. And that's
[69:33] causing ADHD, behavioral problems that
[69:37] are
[69:39] hugely rising in children in school. A
[69:42] lot of aggression and violence. And so,
[69:44] that's what's happening. This is a
[69:46] stress response. And again, instead of
[69:48] asking the right questions like, where
[69:51] is this coming from? What's causing the
[69:52] stress? Instead, we silence the
[69:55] children's pain. We tell we tell
[69:57] parents, we'll medicate it and we'll
[69:59] just relieve the symptoms.
[70:01] For me, that's malpractice. The way we
[70:03] treat ADHD is malpractice. A child
[70:07] develops
[70:08] goes into fight or flight when they are
[70:11] under stress. It could be psychosocial
[70:13] stressors at home, in the family. It
[70:16] could be at school. It could be with
[70:17] their friends. It could be a learning
[70:20] disability. There's so many things that
[70:22] can cause kids stress. So, instead of
[70:24] medicating them, why don't we figure out
[70:27] what's happening to that child deeply
[70:29] that's causing them to go into fight or
[70:31] flight.
[70:32] Isn't that point of view? I have two
[70:33] questions here. The first is, how do you
[70:36] know that it's stress? And the second
[70:38] is, if it is stress, then that the
[70:40] problem or at least the inconvenient
[70:42] truth that that then creates is that the
[70:45] parent is responsible.
[70:47] Yes. That's the There's the inconvenient
[70:49] truth. For their child's ADHD.
[70:51] Yes. Yes. That's the inconvenient truth.
[70:54] It's not so simple. Sometimes it's the
[70:57] families. Usually, it's the family,
[71:00] particularly with small children. But,
[71:01] when children get to school,
[71:03] it could be social. As I said, you know,
[71:06] you can't control whether your children
[71:08] are exposed to social issues or
[71:10] bullying. Or, there's many things that
[71:12] can cause stress in children. But, when
[71:13] they're very little,
[71:15] you are their environment. So, the
[71:17] inconvenient truth is that when your
[71:19] child gets an ADHD diagnosis, the first
[71:22] thing you should do is go to a therapist
[71:24] who will do parent guidance with you.
[71:26] Don't rush that child to a psychiatrist
[71:29] to medicate them. You go with your
[71:31] partner spouse and talk to a parent
[71:34] guidance expert about what could be
[71:37] causing this child to feel such stress.
[71:40] And, look at the psychosocial stressors.
[71:43] Look at the influences and the dynamics
[71:45] in this child's life that would be
[71:47] causing them to go into a state of
[71:49] stress like this. Give me some examples
[71:51] of the type of stresses, the everyday
[71:52] stresses that we're now exposing
[71:54] children to that are
[71:56] leading to ADHD in your opinion. Well,
[71:58] again, let's start at home. At home, the
[72:01] stresses might be that they were
[72:04] handed over to a daycare center at an
[72:07] early age, um which turned that amygdala
[72:10] response on, which turned the stress
[72:12] regulating part of the brain on too
[72:14] early. Now, you have that hypervigilant
[72:17] reaction, and they can't turn it off,
[72:19] right? Um it could be a divorce
[72:22] situation. 50% of couples divorce, which
[72:25] means that divorce is an adversity. You
[72:27] know, I have a book coming out in a year
[72:29] about how to divorce and mitigate the
[72:31] impact of the divorce on the child. But,
[72:33] no matter what, a divorce is an
[72:35] adversity on a child and a stress.
[72:37] Um when parents fight uh dramatically in
[72:41] the home. If there's uh tremendous
[72:43] sibling rivalry issues in the home. If
[72:45] there's the birth of another child, it's
[72:47] stressful, right? If you have a sibling,
[72:50] believe it or not, that's a very
[72:51] stressful thing. If parents are
[72:53] sensitive about that, then it can be
[72:55] mitigated, but if parents are
[72:56] insensitive about the birth of a second
[72:58] child and the feelings that your first
[73:01] child may have, that can cause stress.
[73:03] Moving can cause stress. Illness or
[73:05] mental illness in a parent can cause
[73:07] stress. Alcoholism, any kind of
[73:09] addiction can cause stress. A
[73:11] grandparent or uncle or aunt or even a
[73:14] parent getting sick and dying can cause
[73:16] I mean, there are so many things that
[73:19] can cause stress, but the point is that
[73:21] stress can be regulated, but it can only
[73:25] be regulated if parents are
[73:27] introspective and self-aware and willing
[73:30] to look at their part in it. If parents
[73:33] hand a child over to a psychiatrist and
[73:35] say, "Fix my child."
[73:37] Of course, psychiatrist will cooperate
[73:40] with you and silence your child's pain,
[73:43] but is that really what you want to be
[73:44] doing?
[73:45] Um because in the end, you're just
[73:47] putting your finger in a dike. You're
[73:49] putting your finger in a dam.
[73:51] And eventually, that dam is going to
[73:53] burst. What do you say to some of the
[73:55] evidence around there being a link to a
[73:58] hereditary component? In twin studies,
[74:00] they found that ADHD is about 74 to 80%
[74:03] heritable, making one of the most
[74:04] genetically influenced psychiatric
[74:06] conditions. Let me tell you what a
[74:08] different study that will help you to
[74:09] understand that study.
[74:12] Which is that
[74:13] we know that there is no genetic
[74:15] precursor to mental illness.
[74:17] There is no genetic precursor to ADHD.
[74:20] There is no genetic precursor to
[74:22] depression and no genetic precursor to
[74:25] anxiety. What do you mean by precursor?
[74:27] Meaning there's no genetic connection.
[74:29] You don't get it in your genes. If your
[74:31] father or your mother were depressed,
[74:33] you get it by something called the
[74:34] inheritance of acquired characteristics.
[74:37] If you're raised by a depressed parent,
[74:39] you're more likely to become depressed.
[74:41] It's the nature nurture argument. Okay,
[74:43] but what they did find
[74:46] Now, schizophrenia has a genetic
[74:48] connection, bipolar disorder, those have
[74:50] genetic, but the rest do not. Anxiety,
[74:53] depression, ADHD, no genetics.
[74:56] What they did find is a genetic tie to
[74:59] something called the sensitivity gene.
[75:03] It's a short allele on the serotonin
[75:05] receptor.
[75:07] And serotonin, as we know, is used to
[75:10] regulate happy emotions, to regulate
[75:12] emotions, right? So, when you have a
[75:15] short allele, it means that you have a
[75:17] harder time picking up the serotonin,
[75:20] but it also means that you are more
[75:23] sensitive to stress.
[75:26] Now, those children who are born with
[75:28] this gene, this short allele on the
[75:30] serotonin receptor gene,
[75:33] they are more prone to mental illness
[75:35] later on because of that sensitivity to
[75:38] stress.
[75:40] What the study shows is if those
[75:43] children who are born with that gene for
[75:45] sensitivity are provided with
[75:49] emotionally and physically present
[75:51] attachment security in the first year,
[75:55] it neutralizes the expression of that
[75:58] gene. So, epigenetics means that we're
[76:00] born with genes, like you might have a
[76:02] gene for rheumatoid arthritis, or you
[76:04] might have a gene for cancer, but it
[76:05] never gets expressed. Well, we all have
[76:07] genes for something,
[76:08] but they don't necessarily get
[76:10] expressed. That's what epigenetics is.
[76:11] It means the environment has to turn on
[76:13] the gene to make it let's rock and roll,
[76:16] right?
[76:17] Um what it showed in this study is that
[76:20] the children who were born with this
[76:23] genetic precursor, the sensitivity to
[76:25] stress,
[76:26] if they had sensitive, empathic,
[76:28] nurturing, and present parents in the
[76:30] first year,
[76:31] it neutralized the expression of that
[76:33] gene. So, those children could be as
[76:37] healthy as children born without that
[76:39] gene.
[76:40] If, however, children born with that
[76:42] sensitivity gene were neglected,
[76:46] you know, abandoned, not provided with
[76:48] sensitive and pathic present nurturing,
[76:50] it exacerbated that gene. So, we know
[76:53] that that sensitivity gene is tied and
[76:55] correlated to mental illness later on
[76:58] unless the sensitive and pathic
[77:00] nurturing mitigates that gene.
[77:04] And what do you say to people that point
[77:05] to MRI scans?
[77:07] fMRI's and yeah, there's there's all
[77:10] kinds of um neurological tests now where
[77:13] we can see the brain in action. So, it's
[77:16] not a static thing. We can actually see
[77:18] the blood flow to the brain. We can see
[77:21] the electrical activity in the brain.
[77:23] Some It's amazing actually. But some
[77:25] people say that this proves that it's
[77:26] the way your brain is. And lots of my
[77:28] friends that have ADHD when they talk
[77:30] about their ADHD or the way that they
[77:32] are, they say, "My brain works like
[77:33] this."
[77:35] No, it's not correct. Their brain is
[77:38] sensitive to stress. Someone with ADHD
[77:40] is more sensitive to stress. So, you
[77:44] could ask them questions like this. You
[77:46] could say,
[77:47] "Were you more Are you a more sensitive
[77:49] person? Are you more sensitive to noise,
[77:52] to smells, to touch? When you were a
[77:54] child, did you not like itchy things?
[77:56] Did you cry more? Were you more
[77:58] sensitive when your parents would go out
[77:59] for the night? Were you more sensitive
[78:01] when your mom would go to work? Or were
[78:02] you more sensitive when you were left at
[78:04] nursery school?"
[78:05] Um and they're probably going to say
[78:07] yes. But if they say no and they still
[78:09] have an ADHD diagnosis? I would
[78:11] guarantee, almost guarantee they
[78:13] wouldn't say no because people with ADHD
[78:16] are people who are sensitive.
[78:19] Sensitivity is an amazing strength
[78:22] if it's met with sensitivity. If you
[78:25] have a sensitive child, so what does a
[78:27] sensitive child look like?
[78:29] If you have multiple children,
[78:31] then you know, because the first thing
[78:33] I'll do when I give a public talk is
[78:34] I'll say, "Okay, any everybody here, who
[78:36] has a sensitive child?" And I describe,
[78:38] okay, sensitive child is a child who
[78:40] cries more,
[78:42] is harder to soothe,
[78:43] um
[78:44] is more
[78:46] clingy, doesn't like you leaving them,
[78:48] is harder it has a harder time
[78:49] separating, has a harder time going to
[78:52] sleep and being left to sleep on their
[78:54] own,
[78:55] um is sensitive to things like noise and
[78:57] smells and touch and
[79:00] If you grew up in an environment that
[79:02] was stressful, and again we've you've
[79:03] identified that stress can come in many
[79:04] forms, it could be arguing parents, it
[79:06] could be a neighbor or whatever, some
[79:08] environmental factor that caused that
[79:09] stress. You were sensitive, you
[79:10] developed ADHD.
[79:12] You become an adult, you get diagnosed
[79:14] at 30 years old as having ADHD. Yeah.
[79:17] You're offered medication, you take the
[79:19] medication, the medication makes you
[79:21] much more functional in your career, in
[79:23] your relationships, in your life.
[79:25] It's a stimulant. And so what stimulants
[79:28] do is they cause they can cause great
[79:30] anxiety, they can cause panic attacks in
[79:33] adolescents, uh they can cause growth
[79:35] issues. So,
[79:38] uh I have patients who come to me, young
[79:40] men who didn't grow because they were
[79:42] put on stimulants when they were young.
[79:45] So, um in in in terms of the
[79:48] consequences of using stimulants, the
[79:51] jury is still out, but we know that they
[79:52] cause growth issues, they cause panic
[79:54] attacks, they cause anxiety disorders,
[79:56] they cause depression.
[79:58] They're quite life-saving. They're quite
[80:00] life-saving for some people in terms of
[80:01] having a They can be. They can be. So,
[80:04] what I would say is if you have tried
[80:07] everything to uncover what the stress is
[80:11] that's causing you to react this way,
[80:13] and you still are feeling that way, then
[80:16] sometimes medication can be a lifesaver.
[80:18] The problem is that we turn to
[80:19] medication
[80:21] uh in in adolescents and children and
[80:24] young adults, we we turn to it as a
[80:26] performance drug.
[80:28] Um because there's so much stress in
[80:30] modern life, and there's such a need for
[80:32] people to perform and be successful in
[80:35] their careers and in school and get good
[80:37] grades. There's so much pressure on
[80:39] kids. So, you know, I'm 60 and we didn't
[80:42] have this kind of pressure
[80:44] growing up and so so the generations
[80:47] that follow have so much pressure. That
[80:50] pressure makes children literally go off
[80:54] the rails. We could talk about the
[80:56] academic pressure, the competitiveness,
[80:59] the perfectionism,
[81:01] um it So, ADHD is a bucket. It's a
[81:06] bucket which you throw people in who
[81:08] have anxiety that has never been
[81:11] treated. And so and there's different
[81:13] ways of thinking about treatment, too.
[81:15] So, we're a society that likes
[81:17] superficial quick fixes. We like drugs.
[81:20] We like CBT therapy.
[81:23] The truth is that this is not a quick
[81:25] fix.
[81:26] Figuring out relationally dynamically
[81:30] what happened to you as a child, what
[81:32] your losses were, what your traumas
[81:34] were, what caused you
[81:37] to feel so anxious, what's caused you to
[81:40] go into fight or flight is hard work. It
[81:43] requires frustration. It requires
[81:45] commitment. It requires going to someone
[81:48] who can think very deeply with you.
[81:51] You know, I I want to define
[81:53] what anxiety is because I think it's
[81:56] really important.
[81:58] Cuz we rarely define depression and
[82:00] anxiety. Um depression is preoccupation
[82:05] with past losses.
[82:07] Anxiety
[82:09] is preoccupation
[82:11] with future losses that may never occur.
[82:14] What do they have in common?
[82:17] It's all about losses. All about loss.
[82:21] And you could say the generations now
[82:24] are very preoccupied with loss.
[82:29] Loss of status, achievement.
[82:33] But because we're also very preoccupied
[82:35] with gain.
[82:38] Well, we're preoccupied with what I say
[82:40] the
[82:41] you know, I don't want to judge, but I
[82:43] want to say the unimportant things in
[82:44] life.
[82:46] What are the important things in life?
[82:48] Relationships, love, connection,
[82:52] health.
[82:53] Right? You would say objectively family.
[82:56] These are the important things in life.
[82:58] But we've become very preoccupied with
[83:02] material success, money,
[83:05] uh career achievements, fame.
[83:09] I think there was a study that
[83:11] interviewed teenagers. Um
[83:14] And it was really discouraging because
[83:16] they said that the thing they wanted
[83:18] more in life than anything was to be
[83:20] famous. And so, we're preoccupied with
[83:23] the wrong things.
[83:25] On this point of stress and the link
[83:26] with ADHD, I'm looking at some research
[83:29] from the
[83:31] injury.com
[83:32] research education group. Um it says
[83:35] that children with an A score, which is
[83:37] the trauma bit score, where I think it
[83:39] goes up to 10 different sort of
[83:40] questions,
[83:41] with an A score of four or more, so four
[83:43] experiences of trauma or more, have
[83:45] nearly four times, which is 400%
[83:48] more chance of having
[83:50] parent-reported ADHD compared to
[83:52] children with no ACEs. Yeah. And some of
[83:54] the factors that have big impact are
[83:55] socio-socioeconomic hardship increases
[83:58] your probability of having ADHD by 40%,
[84:00] parental divorce by
[84:02] 35%, familial mental illness, so a
[84:05] parent having a mental illness increases
[84:07] it up to almost 60%, 55% I believe, and
[84:10] neighborhood violence almost 50%,
[84:12] familial incarceration, so if a parent
[84:14] goes to prison, then that increases your
[84:16] probability of ADHD by about 40% as
[84:19] well. And that's published by the
[84:22] I think it's the New England
[84:24] Yeah. What is it or the National Library
[84:26] of Medicine National Center of
[84:27] Biological Information?
[84:28] Yes, so remember what I said that you
[84:30] can't control everything that happens to
[84:32] your child. Divorces do happen and
[84:34] adversities happen to children. Health
[84:37] health issues happen to children. What
[84:40] you can control is you can control the
[84:43] first 3 years and be as present as
[84:45] possible for your child. So if my kid
[84:48] starts screaming in a supermarket
[84:51] one of the prevailing pieces of advice
[84:53] says just walk off or start screaming
[84:56] yourself as the parent to show them. Do
[84:58] am I supposed to just ignore my child
[85:00] when it's screaming and throwing a
[85:01] tantrum? Am I meant to drop what I'm
[85:03] doing and go and cater to them? What am
[85:05] I meant to do in this situation?
[85:06] have me on speed dial, Steven.
[85:07] You be careful because if you make a
[85:09] promise like that I will call I will
[85:11] call
[85:12] You really want to drop your career and
[85:14] focus on raising my children?
[85:17] I've got this on video. That's legally
[85:19] binding.
[85:21] How much?
[85:22] Yeah, you can as much as you want. So
[85:24] the deal is you don't yell at your
[85:26] children.
[85:27] An emotionally regulated parent a
[85:30] healthy parent produces a healthy child.
[85:32] So what is a healthy parent? A healthy
[85:34] parent is a parent who feels good about
[85:36] themselves who has
[85:37] authentically good self-esteem not
[85:40] grandiosity but really feels good about
[85:42] themselves knows their strengths and
[85:44] limitations and overall as a whole
[85:46] person feels good about themselves. Um
[85:49] they have the capacity to regulate their
[85:51] emotions to keep their emotions from
[85:53] going too high and too low. Remember
[85:55] Mhm. sailing in the Caribbean meaning
[85:57] they can stay calm in a storm. Um is
[86:00] sensitive and empathic as a nurturer.
[86:03] These are signs of health in a in a
[86:06] parent. So if my kid says I want that
[86:09] pack of sweets and I go you you you
[86:12] can't have that pack of sweets.
[86:13] Well, first you have to so before you
[86:15] discipline
[86:17] you always want to be empathic first.
[86:18] So, I always say that that if you are
[86:20] going to discipline a child,
[86:23] first you have to recognize how they
[86:25] feel. I mean, recognize recognizing how
[86:27] children feel is important anyway.
[86:30] Meaning, when you recognize a child's
[86:32] feelings, if they're sad, you mirror
[86:34] their sadness. If they're angry, you
[86:36] say, "I can see you're angry." If
[86:38] they're happy, you look happy with them.
[86:40] That kind of reflection
[86:42] is the way that your child knows that
[86:46] you acknowledge them. That they're a
[86:49] person to you. That they're a separate
[86:51] person to you. It's how they feel
[86:53] valuable. So, when you acknowledge their
[86:55] feelings, that's the first critical
[86:58] you'd say parenting 101. Acknowledge
[87:00] your child's feelings.
[87:02] So, I would turn to my child and say,
[87:03] "You want sweets, so you're hungry."
[87:04] Yeah, you can say, "I can see that you
[87:06] really want that packet of sweets. I can
[87:08] see how hard it is cuz you really want
[87:10] it, but you know you can't have it
[87:11] before dinner. You know that's the
[87:13] rule." And then they start screaming and
[87:15] crying.
[87:16] screaming, and you say, "You broken
[87:18] record" is a communication style where
[87:20] you say, "Oh, I can see it's really hard
[87:23] for you, but you still can't have the
[87:25] sweets." And you stay with them, and you
[87:27] keep empathizing and then setting
[87:30] structure. Empathizing structure.
[87:32] Empathizing structure.
[87:34] The mistake that parents make is that
[87:35] they go right into the no word. They
[87:38] don't use empathy. They don't bring
[87:40] empathy in.
[87:41] And the truth is that even as an adult,
[87:44] if somebody just says no without first
[87:47] recognizing how you feel,
[87:49] you feel very unsatisfied,
[87:52] right? For a child, it's critical. It's
[87:55] critical that even when you have to say
[87:57] no, and particularly if you have to say
[87:59] no, that you first recognize how they
[88:01] feel. I mean, that's what all the
[88:02] relationship experts on this show tell
[88:04] me. They say, "If you want to be
[88:05] successful in a romantic relationship,
[88:07] then you first must make your partner
[88:09] feel heard and understood."
[88:10] That's right. Even if you disagree in an
[88:12] argument, first acknowledge what they
[88:13] said, maybe repeat it back to them.
[88:16] And then they'll feel heard and
[88:17] understood and it kind of stops the
[88:18] broken record.
[88:19] Do you think that I'm a traumatized
[88:20] child?
[88:22] I don't know. I haven't heard about your
[88:23] traumatized background. If so, if you
[88:25] have a trauma I would say we're all So,
[88:28] let me say this. There's this word
[88:29] trauma is used a lot. Can I just talk
[88:32] about it for a moment?
[88:34] There's something called big T trauma,
[88:36] right? Big T traumas like I was in a car
[88:39] accident and I lost my legs or
[88:41] you know, I lost my parents, you know,
[88:45] my mother died of brain cancer or my my
[88:47] father was an alcoholic and beat me or
[88:50] you know, there's there are
[88:52] things that are more concrete that you
[88:54] can like hold on to, things that
[88:57] happened to people. Yeah, I was raped or
[88:59] you know,
[89:00] those are big T trauma.
[89:03] But believe it or not,
[89:05] probably fewer people suffer from big T
[89:08] trauma and more people suffer from
[89:11] little T trauma. And little T trauma
[89:14] is more nuanced.
[89:16] It's um it it requires looking with a
[89:21] with a finer-tooth comb at at the
[89:23] issues. It's more relational.
[89:25] It's more I was subtly neglected by my
[89:29] mother. My mother wasn't a good
[89:31] listener. My mother loved me but she my
[89:33] father loved me but he never understood
[89:36] me.
[89:37] Uh my parents were narcissistic and very
[89:39] self-centered.
[89:41] Um
[89:41] they were never around, you know, and so
[89:44] people will come into my office and sit
[89:46] down, individuals for therapy and
[89:48] they'll say, you know, I don't know
[89:50] what's wrong with me.
[89:51] I had two parents who stayed together,
[89:54] had all the material wealth that I could
[89:57] need. I never wanted for stuff.
[90:00] Uh you know, my parents stayed together
[90:02] and I don't know what's wrong with me.
[90:03] And so I say, "Okay, so you're telling
[90:06] me nothing
[90:07] big and traumatic happened to you in
[90:09] your life. Now, let's talk about the
[90:11] nuance.
[90:12] And we're not very nuanced anymore. So,
[90:14] we don't want to look at what causes
[90:17] most forms of mental illness,
[90:19] depression, anxiety,
[90:21] uh even ADHD,
[90:23] are the relational nuances of a family.
[90:27] And what you mean by the relational
[90:28] nuances? It could be the
[90:30] neglect,
[90:31] neglect, being ignored, having a
[90:33] mentally ill parent that no one knows
[90:35] about, maybe a depressed mother who
[90:37] sleeps in in the morning and doesn't get
[90:39] up and feed you, you know, you get up
[90:41] and feed yourself, or
[90:43] uh maybe you're a latchkey kid who comes
[90:45] home and and you're isolated and alone,
[90:48] or things that people can't see,
[90:52] um but you see. And so, that's why
[90:54] people I would say most people go into
[90:56] therapy not for big T traumas, believe
[91:00] it or not, even though the ACES study
[91:02] says, you know, alcoholism, drug
[91:04] addiction. Of course, those are big T
[91:05] traumas.
[91:07] Most people come into therapy for
[91:10] little T trauma.
[91:12] And and the reason why
[91:15] it's it's quite difficult for those
[91:18] people is there's not a lot of
[91:20] reinforcement from society that those
[91:22] are also traumas, but in fact, they are
[91:24] traumas. Attachment trauma,
[91:26] you know, if you were put in daycare and
[91:28] you So, I have patients who come to me
[91:30] and say, "I can remember
[91:32] being put in daycare." And you know,
[91:34] you're not supposed to remember things
[91:36] until the age of 4 or 5, but some
[91:39] patients can remember flashes of memory
[91:41] under 5. And they'll say, "I was put
[91:43] into daycare. I just all I can remember
[91:45] is screaming my lungs out for my mommy."
[91:49] You're not a fan of daycare, are you?
[91:50] No.
[91:51] What's wrong with daycare?
[91:54] Daycare raises salivary cortisol levels
[91:57] in children, the studies show, be
[91:59] meaning those babies are put into
[92:02] stressful states uh at a very young age
[92:05] when their brains are developing.
[92:07] Daycare has been known to increase
[92:09] aggression and anxiety and behavioral
[92:12] problems in school in the school years.
[92:15] And those children are more likely to
[92:17] develop attachment disorders.
[92:19] Remember those first 3 years when
[92:21] children are so very fragile and
[92:23] vulnerable.
[92:25] Taking them away from your body as a
[92:27] primary attachment figure and handing
[92:29] them over to strangers
[92:32] and leaving them there for hours on end
[92:36] will cause your child to have to develop
[92:38] pathological defenses and that's what
[92:41] those children are forced to do.
[92:43] So, it is the least good option of child
[92:45] care. So, let's talk about what are the
[92:46] better options of child care
[92:49] if you have to use child care.
[92:52] You know how we say breast is best and
[92:54] it is for a variety of reasons, but the
[92:56] best is your primary attachment figure
[92:59] for the first 3 years as much as
[93:01] possible.
[93:02] Primary attachment attachment figure you
[93:04] mean the mother? Well, no it can be the
[93:06] father.
[93:07] Okay. It's the go-to person
[93:10] who's a sensitive empathic nurturer. So,
[93:12] when that baby's in distress, that baby
[93:15] gets their emotional needs met. It can
[93:17] be the father. It can be the father, but
[93:20] first the father has to learn how to be
[93:21] a sensitive It doesn't come naturally to
[93:23] most men. With rare exception, I have
[93:26] known some patients
[93:28] where the husband the father was more
[93:31] sensitive than the mother. It's
[93:33] possible.
[93:34] But in general, instinctually fathers
[93:38] are not sensitive empathic nurturers
[93:40] because it's against their evolutionary
[93:42] instinct. Their evolutionary instinct
[93:45] if you were an animal on the plains of
[93:46] Africa
[93:48] you're
[93:49] you're you're an impala.
[93:52] You're a daddy impala. Mhm. Your baby is
[93:55] born and it comes out running cuz they
[93:57] are. They're like born and you're all
[93:59] running together.
[94:01] You get behind that baby and you're
[94:03] like, "Get going, buddy. You better get
[94:05] going or you're going to be lunch for
[94:07] that lion."
[94:08] That's a father's instinct is to
[94:10] protect. It's protective aggression,
[94:12] right? That's different than the baby
[94:15] impala falls down and the mother comes
[94:17] over and licks the baby and says, "Are
[94:18] you okay, honey? Can I give you a hug?
[94:20] Can you Should I
[94:21] If impala could talk. Um so it's a
[94:25] different instinct. So, fathers can be
[94:26] taught to be primary attachment figures,
[94:28] but this is why I say it's so very
[94:30] important that we recognize the
[94:32] difference between men and women. If we
[94:34] just think they're exactly the same and
[94:36] we put it throw a father into the mix
[94:38] with an infant and the mother's going
[94:40] out and the father's staying home, if we
[94:42] don't talk about this stuff and and talk
[94:45] about it openly and say, "When the baby
[94:48] cries, you have to mirror the baby's
[94:50] emotions. You have to do skin-to-skin.
[94:52] You have to soothe the baby, not
[94:55] encourage resilience, not not distract
[94:58] the baby, not use discrepant emotions
[95:00] with the baby." If the baby's crying,
[95:02] don't go, "Oh, you're okay. You'll be
[95:03] fine." No, no. So, it's really important
[95:07] if the father's going to stay home that
[95:08] he learns how to be a mother. You know,
[95:10] sometimes gay couples will come to me
[95:13] and I'll say, um you know, two gay men
[95:15] will come. I'll say, "Which one of you's
[95:17] going to be the mother?"
[95:19] Now, that may seem politically
[95:20] incorrect, but someone's got to play
[95:21] that role. You cannot have two fathers
[95:23] for a child. A child needs a mother and
[95:25] a father. If you're going to have two
[95:26] men, then one of them has to play that
[95:28] sensitive empathic role. The other has
[95:30] to play the playful tactile stimulation
[95:32] role. Same with two women who are
[95:34] raising children. It's better to have a
[95:36] father and a mother than two mothers.
[95:38] So, which of you's going to be the dad?
[95:40] Which of you's going to roughhouse and
[95:42] play basketball and roll around on the
[95:44] ground and tickle the baby and encourage
[95:46] exploration and risk-taking and Can you
[95:48] both do half each?
[95:50] Like so so they couldn't
[95:51] No. No. And I'll tell you why. It's very
[95:53] confusing to children.
[95:55] They When parents say, "I'm both mother
[95:58] and father to my child." I say, "No. No.
[96:01] It's very confusing to children. They
[96:03] need to have a mother figure
[96:06] and a father figure." And I say that
[96:07] knowing today's politics and knowing
[96:09] today's social situation.
[96:11] You can have a mother figure who's not a
[96:14] mother. Maybe it's a nanny. Maybe it's a
[96:17] grandmother. You need a mother figure.
[96:20] And you need that figure to be around a
[96:23] lot.
[96:24] If that mother figure is the one who
[96:26] provides the sensitive empathic
[96:28] nurturing. So, some of this can be
[96:30] taught, but it can't be taught unless
[96:32] you first acknowledge that there are
[96:34] differences. If we cannot as a society
[96:37] acknowledge the inconvenient truth that
[96:39] men and women are different in terms of
[96:40] their nurturing behaviors, then we can't
[96:42] teach anybody anything.
[96:44] I'm looking at some stats here in front
[96:46] of me on a graph which I was just
[96:48] reading as as you're explaining that cuz
[96:49] it seems to be quite relevant. And it
[96:51] shows that in 1960, one in 10 mothers
[96:55] were the sole primary breadwinner. Yeah.
[96:58] Now, it's almost at half. It's on its
[97:00] way to half.
[97:02] Almost half of mothers are the sole or
[97:04] primary breadwinner in 2016.
[97:08] So, I mean, these mothers can't just
[97:11] quit their jobs.
[97:13] So,
[97:15] If there's a It's It's It's It's a good
[97:17] question.
[97:18] I get a lot of people coming to me and
[97:20] saying
[97:21] and this is very common,
[97:24] "I want to quit my job.
[97:26] I want to downscale. I want to work
[97:29] part-time,
[97:30] but my husband won't support it
[97:34] because I made a promise that I would be
[97:36] the primary breadwinner. And now I want
[97:39] to switch, and he won't switch. Or he
[97:41] doesn't support me giving up my
[97:44] high-paying job, but I feel this
[97:46] transformation of being with my baby and
[97:48] I don't want to leave my baby.
[97:50] The problem with young people is they
[97:52] promise each other, they make promises
[97:54] to each other that they probably should
[97:55] not make. Do not promise your spouse
[97:58] that nothing will change when you have a
[98:00] baby.
[98:01] Say to your spouse, let's prepare for
[98:04] everything to change.
[98:07] Let's believe that
[98:10] anything is possible and let's
[98:13] prepare. Let's strategize. Let's say,
[98:16] what if I want to stay home with the
[98:18] baby? What if I
[98:20] I may not feel like that now, but what
[98:22] if I see this baby and I fall in love
[98:23] with this baby and I want to stay home
[98:25] and I'm the mother and I want to
[98:26] breastfeed and I don't want to go back
[98:27] to work for a while and
[98:29] and so then you say, what would that
[98:31] scenario look like? What could we do?
[98:33] What could we downscale in terms of our
[98:35] material life and our lifestyle that
[98:38] makes it possible for me to stay home?
[98:42] And I don't think we do that. Instead,
[98:45] women say, nothing's going to change and
[98:47] men say, nothing's going to change. And
[98:49] then they have babies and they're not
[98:51] prepared for the changes that occur.
[98:54] Changes occur in men, too. It's not just
[98:56] women. I mean, fathers also can have
[98:59] this transformation, right?
[99:02] Um where they also want to work less or,
[99:05] you know, sometimes the transformation
[99:07] comes in the form of wanting to work
[99:08] less and being home. Sometimes it comes
[99:10] in the form of
[99:12] wanting to go out and take on the world
[99:14] so they can provide for their family,
[99:15] you know. But it does it does stimulate
[99:18] something. It stimulates some
[99:20] evolutionary response in men and women.
[99:23] The hardest thing I find is when men and
[99:25] women compete.
[99:28] It was much easier in the olden days.
[99:30] Now, not everything was good in the
[99:31] olden days, but you would say the idea
[99:34] that roles were defined
[99:37] meant that men and women didn't compete
[99:40] over their roles. Now, what I think is
[99:44] causing a lot of these divorces and
[99:46] what's causing a lot of marital conflict
[99:48] is that men and women compete over
[99:50] everything. They compete over who's
[99:52] going to make more money. They compete
[99:55] over who's going to care for the baby.
[99:57] Um and so it's like you you're a CEO CEO
[100:01] of a company, you had your own company.
[100:03] So, you can't have co-CEOs. I mean, I
[100:06] don't know if you did, but it doesn't
[100:08] work. I mean, anybody that I've ever
[100:09] treated that says we're going to do
[100:11] co-CEOs, it always falls apart. You can
[100:13] have a CEO, you can have a president,
[100:15] you can have the head of marketing, you
[100:17] can have a CFO, you can have a COO.
[100:19] These are different roles.
[100:21] And they don't compete with one another.
[100:22] They work as a team.
[100:24] Parenting is a team sport, not a
[100:27] competitive sport.
[100:29] And so, what's happening today because
[100:31] of all this gender neutrality and we're
[100:34] as I'm as good as you and you're as good
[100:35] as me and we're the same, it means that
[100:38] couples are competing with one another.
[100:40] And that's causing so much tension
[100:42] because what's best is when couples
[100:44] compliment each other.
[100:46] When their differences
[100:49] mean that as a team, they work well to
[100:52] care for a child. And I would say the
[100:54] secret to success in a marriage is save
[100:57] your competition for the tennis court,
[100:59] for the basketball court, for running in
[101:03] the park,
[101:04] but don't compete over child-rearing,
[101:06] who's going to take care of the
[101:07] children. Don't compete over who makes
[101:09] more money. Find a way to compliment
[101:12] each other and be a team.
[101:15] There's so many mothers listening now
[101:16] that
[101:17] are very career-driven. Mhm. Um you may
[101:20] be causing some existential crises. You
[101:22] may be reaffirming a lot of what they
[101:24] believe and think and what they feel
[101:26] intuitively.
[101:27] Um
[101:28] are you are you saying then that for
[101:31] those women that are pursuing, you know,
[101:33] high-octane careers in leadership roles
[101:37] that also want to have children, that
[101:38] it's one or the other.
[101:41] No. I'm saying that there are certain
[101:44] careers, realistically, here's the
[101:45] inconvenient truth again, bunch of
[101:47] inconvenient truths.
[101:49] Um
[101:51] there are certain careers that are
[101:54] harder
[101:56] to be a good mother.
[101:58] Period. I'm saying that, I know it's a
[102:00] harsh talk, but there it is. There are
[102:02] certain careers that are too demanding
[102:04] to be present for your children.
[102:07] Whether you're a mother or a father.
[102:09] You think if you're a father who's a CEO
[102:11] who's traveling around the world and
[102:12] misses your children's birthday and
[102:14] misses your children's soccer games and
[102:16] misses your children's piano concerts
[102:18] and isn't there to pick them up at
[102:20] school or have breakfast with them or
[102:22] have dinner at the end of the day, you
[102:24] think that child is going to have a
[102:26] healthy relationship with that parent?
[102:29] Another myth, here we are. I told you I
[102:31] was going to weave the myths in. Quality
[102:33] versus quantity time.
[102:36] You cannot be there for your children
[102:40] on your own time, you have to be there
[102:43] on their time.
[102:45] Meaning, quality time is a narcissistic
[102:48] fantasy.
[102:50] I can be there on my time.
[102:52] So, my child sits at home and is like a
[102:55] vase on the counter waiting for me to
[102:57] come home and then I come home and there
[103:00] I can be present for my child. Your
[103:02] child has needed you all day long.
[103:06] And when you come home,
[103:08] that's your that's on your time.
[103:11] You need to be there a quality of time
[103:14] as well as a quantity of time. I always
[103:16] say to people that you can be
[103:18] you can be physically present, but be
[103:20] emotionally checked out, but you can't
[103:21] be emotionally present if you're not
[103:22] physically there enough of the time.
[103:26] And that's just a reality. So, what are
[103:27] the careers that are really good
[103:29] for for going to be the primary
[103:31] attachment figure.
[103:33] Service fields, fields where you have
[103:36] your own business and you can
[103:38] make your own schedule around your
[103:40] children where your children don't work
[103:44] around you, you work around your
[103:45] children.
[103:46] Physical therapy, psychotherapy, speech
[103:50] therapy, consulting maybe.
[103:53] Um anything that's entrepreneurial,
[103:55] anything that is a service field.
[103:57] See a podcaster, investor, entrepreneur
[103:59] or something. No, I'm going to disagree
[104:00] with you. I'm going to say you can, but
[104:03] you have to be willing to set limits
[104:05] with yourself. So, you have to be
[104:07] willing to say
[104:09] Do you know Monet, the painter? Yeah. He
[104:11] was famous in his own life. Now, most
[104:14] painters have to be dead to be famous.
[104:16] And he painted on a very
[104:21] modest schedule. Get up in the morning
[104:23] to catch the light and then he'd be done
[104:25] by like 3:00 or 4:00 in the afternoon.
[104:26] He'd have dinner with his family, you
[104:28] know.
[104:29] We We are the architects of our own
[104:32] lives. Kind of. No, not kind of. I'm
[104:36] representing the opinion of some people
[104:38] who might be listening. I obviously this
[104:40] Okay, so what So, who are the people who
[104:42] can't architect their own lives? You
[104:44] want to be a Who do you think? I would
[104:46] say hedge fund managers. Okay, let me
[104:48] tell you that. So, I was 18 years old
[104:50] dropped out of university. Mhm. Um
[104:52] probably had sex that year. So, if I had
[104:54] sex that year and had a baby and then I
[104:56] became a single parent. At the time I
[105:00] was I had two CCJs. I was broke. I was
[105:03] shoplifting food to feed myself. I
[105:04] printed off the doll forms. I hadn't I
[105:06] never sent them in, but the forms where
[105:08] you get, you know, like government
[105:09] assistance.
[105:10] And I was working in call centers
[105:12] working night shifts because that was
[105:14] the best job I could get to pay for the
[105:16] the rent that I had every month. If I'd
[105:18] had a baby at that exact moment in time
[105:21] I didn't think I would be the it
[105:23] wouldn't it wouldn't resonate with me
[105:25] what you were saying about being the
[105:26] architect of my own destiny because
[105:28] there are like immediate emergencies. I
[105:29] can't I can't feed myself let alone a
[105:31] kid. So, I'll tell you And I also didn't
[105:33] have any family within hours. My mom had
[105:35] basically disowned me because I dropped
[105:37] out of university. I was alone. Did you
[105:39] have a baby at 18?
[105:41] No. Okay.
[105:41] I'm I haven't had kids yet. I'm hoping
[105:42] to. Okay. So, um
[105:46] first of all, it's a good reason to use
[105:47] birth control and not have a baby at 18.
[105:49] But okay, let's put that aside for a
[105:51] second. Let's Let's put that aside for a
[105:53] second.
[105:54] Let's say that what we should be
[105:56] promoting in this world, I'm going to
[105:59] say this, it's controversial,
[106:01] is that whoever is the primary
[106:03] attachment figure
[106:05] has a career that they have control over
[106:07] and flexibility. Maybe the other person
[106:09] doesn't. Maybe the other person works
[106:11] for someone or whatever. But in my book,
[106:14] I interview a lot of different women
[106:15] from a lot of different socioeconomic
[106:17] backgrounds. And one of the women that I
[106:19] interviewed was a nanny.
[106:21] And she said, she had three children,
[106:25] and she said that
[106:28] the way that I raise my children,
[106:30] because I was a single mother raising
[106:31] three children, I had to work to pay the
[106:34] rent.
[106:36] She said, "But I made sure that I didn't
[106:38] work past 5:00. I never worked past
[106:40] 5:00. I'd come home at 5:00.
[106:44] I didn't go out at night. People would
[106:45] say, 'Let's go.' I said, 'No. My
[106:47] children, this is my time with my
[106:50] children. So, I don't go out at night. I
[106:52] don't go out on weekends. I'm with when
[106:54] I'm not working, I am with my children.
[106:57] And my children knew that I had to work.
[106:59] But the way I used my free time was very
[107:03] carefully."
[107:05] Um she also said to me, and again, a
[107:08] number of There are a number of
[107:09] interviews in there. She also said that
[107:12] the people who she left her children
[107:14] with, she never used daycare.
[107:17] She had extended family watch her child.
[107:20] So, her neighbor, who was her dear
[107:23] friend, she paid to watch her child. And
[107:27] so, that person was auntie, and that
[107:29] person was like family, and was in that
[107:32] child's life forever.
[107:34] So, what I say about child care is there
[107:37] different levels of importance. So, the
[107:39] first the best is your primary
[107:41] attachment figure. Next best is kinship
[107:43] bonds, family or extended family.
[107:46] Someone who has a similar investment to
[107:48] that child as you do. Even if the kid's
[107:50] going to be raised alone at that early
[107:51] age?
[107:53] Yes.
[107:54] Versus going to daycare where they'll be
[107:55] around other kids?
[107:56] No. No, children don't need other kids
[107:58] until the age of three. They do
[108:00] something called parallel play. What
[108:02] they need is one-on-one connection. They
[108:04] need attachment security, and they need
[108:07] their emotional needs met by one person,
[108:10] one-on-one.
[108:11] Um after three, then the beginning of
[108:13] preschool, then they start to actually
[108:15] interact with one another. Until then,
[108:17] they're not playing together. They're
[108:18] just doing parallel play. So, that's
[108:21] another myth. The myth that daycare is
[108:23] good for children for socialization. No,
[108:26] children don't need socialization before
[108:29] three, unless their mother's with them.
[108:31] So, what I say is do playdates, do
[108:34] playgroups, but be within
[108:36] eye gaze or ear earshot of a child.
[108:40] Meaning, there's something called
[108:42] um rapprochement, which is emotional
[108:44] refueling. So, when children start to
[108:47] explore, when you've given them
[108:48] emotional security, and they feel so
[108:50] secure that you're going to be there,
[108:53] then they start to take chances, they
[108:55] start to take risks, they start to
[108:57] toddle off. That's the where the word
[108:59] toddler came from.
[109:00] They toddle away, but guess what they do
[109:03] for emotional security?
[109:05] They look back, and they say, "Oh, she's
[109:08] there. It's okay." And then they keep
[109:09] playing.
[109:10] Or,
[109:11] they run back and get a hug, and then
[109:13] they run off again.
[109:15] You are their touchstone of security.
[109:18] And that's how children become
[109:20] courageous. That's how they develop the
[109:22] ability to explore and still feel
[109:24] secure. Your gut and my gut is the home
[109:27] of our digestion, and it's also a
[109:28] gateway to better health. But, it can be
[109:30] hard to know what's going on in there.
[109:32] Zoe, who sponsors this podcast, has one
[109:34] of the largest microbiome databases on
[109:36] the planet, and one of the world's most
[109:38] advanced at-home gut health tests. Their
[109:40] blood sugar sensor, which I have in this
[109:42] box in front of me, goes on your arm, so
[109:44] you can see how different foods impact
[109:45] your blood sugar. Then there's the
[109:47] at-home blood sample, which is really
[109:48] easy and analyzes your body's blood fat.
[109:51] And of course, the famous
[109:55] blue Zoe cookie, which tests your
[109:57] metabolism. Oh, and I can't forget
[109:59] there's also a poo sample, which is a
[110:01] critical step in understanding the
[110:02] health of your microbiome. And you post
[110:04] it all to Zoe, and you get your results
[110:06] back, which will help you to understand
[110:07] your body's response to different foods.
[110:09] Using your results, Zoe's app will also
[110:11] create a personalized nutrition plan for
[110:13] you. And this is exactly why I invested
[110:16] in the business. So, my question to you
[110:17] is how healthy is your gut? Head to
[110:19] zoe.com to order your kit and find out.
[110:21] And because you're one of our listeners,
[110:23] use code Steven10 for 10% off your
[110:25] membership. Head to zoe.com now.
[110:28] As you guys know, Whoop is one of my
[110:30] show sponsors. It's also a company that
[110:32] I have invested in, and it's one that
[110:34] you guys ask me about a lot. The biggest
[110:35] question I get asked is why I use Whoop
[110:37] over other wearable technology options.
[110:39] And there is a bunch of reasons, but I
[110:41] think it really comes down to the most
[110:43] overlooked yet crucial feature, its
[110:45] non-invasive nature. When everything in
[110:48] life seems to be competing for my
[110:49] attention, I turn to Whoop because it
[110:51] doesn't have a screen. And Will Ahmed,
[110:53] the CEO who came on this podcast, told
[110:55] me the reason that there's no screen,
[110:57] because screens equal distraction. So,
[111:00] when I'm in meetings or I'm at the gym,
[111:01] my Whoop doesn't demand my attention.
[111:03] It's there in the background, constantly
[111:05] pulling data and insights from my body
[111:07] that are ready for when I need them. If
[111:10] you've been thinking about joining
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[111:12] join.whoop.com/ceo
[111:15] and try Whoop for 30 days risk-free and
[111:18] zero commitment. That's
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[111:22] Let me know how you get on. You keep
[111:24] mentioning but 3 years old.
[111:26] Yes. Why 3 years old? And there's kind
[111:29] of like two sub segments to this
[111:31] question that I was keen to understand.
[111:34] Is there an element of neuroplasticity
[111:36] that makes the age of 3 so important?
[111:39] And the other kind of sub question I was
[111:41] trying to figure out in my head was
[111:43] is the damage we do before 3 years old
[111:45] to a child inadvertently
[111:48] at all reversible? And is it damage?
[111:50] So, plasticity
[111:53] there are certain what we call critical
[111:54] periods of right or social emotional
[111:57] brain development. One is zero to three
[111:59] and it's the most important because
[112:01] what's happening is something called
[112:02] neurogenesis. So, it's the growth of
[112:04] cells.
[112:06] And your presence as a parent who
[112:09] provides safety and security, buffers
[112:12] your child from stress, regulates their
[112:14] emotions
[112:15] is critical to them growing that right
[112:20] brain because 85% of their right brain
[112:22] is developed by three. Crazy, right? 85%
[112:26] and you being there
[112:28] changes the architecture of that brain.
[112:31] That's how important you are. Like
[112:33] people come up to me in cocktail parties
[112:35] and they'll say to me,
[112:36] "Ah, I don't have to be there. My baby's
[112:38] just sleeping and pooping and you know,
[112:41] they don't need me. I'm going to be
[112:42] around when they're talking and
[112:43] walking." I'm like, "No!"
[112:46] I'm like, "You got it wrong." I'm like,
[112:49] "You have to be here now because now is
[112:51] when the cell growth is happening. Every
[112:54] time a baby snuggles and takes the
[112:57] breast and looks at you with their eyes
[112:59] and you sing to them
[113:01] thousands, millions of synapses are
[113:04] firing. Okay. So, you have Think of a
[113:07] garden.
[113:08] By 3 years of age,
[113:10] you're growing a garden. I know cuz I
[113:12] just started a garden where I have
[113:14] vegetables and flowers and it's
[113:16] abundant. It's an abundant I love my
[113:18] garden.
[113:20] This is an abundant garden of brain
[113:22] tissue. Okay?
[113:24] If you do it right, it grows it
[113:27] overgrows. You know, the flowers, the
[113:29] vegetables, it's growing crazy. Okay.
[113:32] Now, they go into childhood. After 3
[113:35] years old, they go into childhood.
[113:38] And for from 3 years old till about 9
[113:41] years old,
[113:43] it's still growing, but it's not growing
[113:45] at the same pace. So, say that it's
[113:48] still like growing a little like like it
[113:50] the garden grows in one big burst and
[113:53] then little bursts. So, from 3 to 9,
[113:56] it's still growing, right? But not not
[113:58] to the same degree as the first critical
[114:00] period of brain development. Now,
[114:02] adolescence comes, 9 to 25.
[114:05] And now you have to prune back the
[114:07] garden because if you don't prune back
[114:09] the cells you don't need,
[114:12] it's as damaging to the brain as if you
[114:14] didn't grow them to begin with. So, in
[114:17] these two critical windows,
[114:19] the environment
[114:20] dictates do the cells grow? Do they get
[114:23] pruned?
[114:25] And
[114:27] when they're really little, you're their
[114:29] environment. You're it. Tag, you're it.
[114:31] When they're in adolescence, you're a
[114:33] very important part of the environment,
[114:35] but not all of their environment. They
[114:37] have friends, they have school, they
[114:38] have activities, right? And so, it's
[114:42] very important if you can get to the
[114:43] first window to get there because you
[114:46] don't know what's going to happen to
[114:47] them and you want to fortify them,
[114:49] right? You want to fortify them so when
[114:51] they get to adolescence, which is really
[114:53] painful and hard and a struggle, that
[114:57] they have the res- the inner resources
[114:59] to to cope with adolescence cuz it's so
[115:02] hard, adolescence, right? And it offers
[115:04] such adversity, social adversity,
[115:06] academic adversity, right? Social media.
[115:09] So, both of these periods are important.
[115:13] If you miss the first window
[115:16] What's 0 to 3? Yes. The title of my
[115:19] second book.
[115:21] It's called Chicken Little, The Sky
[115:24] Isn't Falling, Raising Resilient
[115:26] Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety.
[115:28] If that isn't a mouthful. Do you know
[115:30] what the title of the book was supposed
[115:32] to be? It was supposed to be second
[115:34] chances.
[115:37] Ah, okay. And the title of Being There
[115:40] was supposed to be called The Lost
[115:42] Instinct. So, if you messed up your
[115:44] kids, you get a second chance
[115:46] a second chance. And what do you do? I
[115:48] want people to read the book cuz it's
[115:50] more nuanced than what I'm saying. A lot
[115:52] of what you should have done in the
[115:54] first 3 years. So
[115:56] You got to be there.
[115:57] You got to be there in a different way.
[115:59] You're not going to I mean, they're not
[116:00] little little, so, but when they come
[116:02] home from school, if you are not there
[116:07] when the door swings open, everybody
[116:09] knows that teenagers close their doors,
[116:12] if they have doors.
[116:14] And that's their way of saying, "My
[116:16] defenses are up. Go away."
[116:19] If parents work really hard and then
[116:22] they come home, they go, "Knock knock
[116:24] knock, I'm here to spend time with you.
[116:26] How how was your day?"
[116:28] That door's closed. Closed, baby,
[116:30] closed.
[116:32] If you aren't there when the door opens
[116:35] on its own, on their terms. If you're
[116:38] not there when they're coming out to get
[116:39] a snack or to take a pee or to take a
[116:42] break from their studying. If you are
[116:44] not there then and open for business for
[116:47] communication, the door closes again.
[116:51] So, it goes back to this idea that
[116:54] children need you
[116:56] when they need you.
[116:58] Not when you're personally available.
[117:02] And if you miss that window, it's not
[117:04] the end of the world because you can a
[117:06] word that we use is to repair.
[117:09] You can repair a lot of the damage.
[117:12] But
[117:13] to repair the damage, you can't go back
[117:16] to sort of like going to a confessional
[117:17] if you're Catholic. You know, you go in
[117:19] and you say, you know, "Oh Father, I you
[117:21] know, I I murdered somebody today." And
[117:24] the the priest says, "Well, you know,
[117:26] say 12 Hail Marys." And I don't know,
[117:28] I'm not Catholic, but you know, but you
[117:30] can't go out and murder again.
[117:31] So, if you're going to repair, it means
[117:33] that
[117:35] whatever
[117:36] happens between you and your child,
[117:38] you're trying to be a better parent.
[117:40] You're trying to do things differently,
[117:42] right?
[117:43] You can't take advantage
[117:46] of their good graces and keep pushing
[117:49] them away, pushing them
[117:51] um but repair is possible because the
[117:53] brain is plastic and it's always growing
[117:55] and shrinking until it's not. What if
[117:57] I'm 30 years old, for example, and I had
[118:00] a traumatic upbringing? Can I repair
[118:02] myself from the childhood trauma that I
[118:05] experienced between the ages of 0 and
[118:07] 10?
[118:09] The way that I would put it is it takes
[118:10] a relationship to cause the trauma and
[118:13] it takes another relationship to repair
[118:15] it.
[118:17] So, the thing that most people don't
[118:20] understand about therapy
[118:22] and why
[118:24] I really recommend psychodynamic
[118:26] psychotherapy,
[118:28] some people would say psychoanalytic
[118:29] therapy,
[118:31] but a more in-depth kind of therapy that
[118:34] lasts longer is because you develop a
[118:37] relationship. It's not that you are
[118:40] healed from some pithy thing that the
[118:43] therapist says. I mean, I wish I was so
[118:45] smart that I could say this and, you
[118:47] know, everybody would say, "You're a
[118:48] You're a genius." And pay me millions of
[118:51] dollars. Doesn't work like that.
[118:53] Therapy requires the consistency of a
[118:56] relationship with the therapist because
[118:59] it's through that therapist seeing you
[119:02] through the ups and downs of your life,
[119:05] reflecting your feelings. It's It's a
[119:07] kind of emotionally reparative
[119:09] experience, but it's not what the
[119:11] therapist says as much as the
[119:13] relationship.
[119:14] The long-standing relationship with a
[119:16] therapist. So, what's healing is the
[119:18] relationship
[119:20] rather than the interpretations. And can
[119:22] that be a romantic relationship that
[119:24] then course corrects you in some regard?
[119:26] Okay, so the idea is that um
[119:30] to really heal, it requires
[119:31] relationships. And those relationships
[119:34] sometimes can be people that you love.
[119:37] The problem with people that you love is
[119:39] that you end up burdening those people
[119:42] with You can burden overburden the
[119:45] people that you love with your
[119:47] conflicts, your internal losses. So, you
[119:50] know, if you find yourself using the
[119:53] people that you love like therapists, if
[119:55] you find that you're using the people
[119:57] that you love
[119:58] um
[119:59] to to deal with past losses,
[120:03] I would say it can it can corrupt the
[120:05] relationship. So, you have to be
[120:06] careful. So, the reason to go to a
[120:08] therapist would be to preserve the
[120:11] relation- It's not that you don't share
[120:12] with the person that you love, but you
[120:13] don't want to overburden your friends or
[120:16] your lovers
[120:18] with the burdens of your childhood
[120:19] trauma, right? So, I always say that
[120:22] therapy becomes like a safe container.
[120:24] You go to therapy, you talk to your
[120:26] therapist, you develop this trusting
[120:29] relationship where where everything is
[120:32] is is left there, so to speak, in that
[120:36] container until you come back. But,
[120:38] therapy is not for everyone. It requires
[120:40] laying down your defenses. It requires
[120:42] the ability to be open and talk about
[120:45] your feelings. There are types of
[120:47] therapies that you can go to if you
[120:49] can't talk about your feelings, things
[120:51] like DBT or CBT, but you know, for the
[120:54] most part, healing therapy requires
[120:57] being open. It requires trusting. You
[120:59] must encounter a lot of people that are
[121:01] in denial about their childhood
[121:03] trauma and the role it's played in
[121:04] shaping who they are. Because you'll
[121:06] have people come to you, I'm sure, that
[121:07] are exhibiting adult symptoms, like
[121:10] maybe they can't form relationships very
[121:12] well.
[121:13] Um
[121:14] maybe they've got other forms of
[121:15] emotional erratic behavior. And there
[121:16] must be occasions where
[121:19] you have a suspicion Yeah.
[121:21] that it's linked to some early
[121:21] experience and they're
[121:23] in denial. I was thinking about people
[121:25] that I know that are
[121:27] have
[121:28] presenting symptoms in their life,
[121:30] really sort of like chronic presenting
[121:31] symptoms, but if you were to ask them if
[121:34] their childhood played a role, they're
[121:35] almost like defensive of their
[121:37] childhood. So, defenses are important.
[121:41] Defenses protect us. So, and people also
[121:45] have a misunderstanding of what therapy
[121:46] is about. The kind of therapy I'm a
[121:48] psychoanalyst. So, we don't People think
[121:50] you go to therapy and they take your
[121:52] defenses away from you. I would never
[121:54] take someone's defenses away unless
[121:57] I could help them to replace them with
[121:59] healthier defenses. So, what we do is an
[122:02] exchange. Like, you don't take your foot
[122:04] off a landmine unless you have a really
[122:05] big rock to put in its place, right? So,
[122:09] if you're going to let go of one
[122:10] defense, you have to trust the person
[122:12] you're working with that you'll find a
[122:14] better healthier defense to protect you.
[122:16] Give me an example.
[122:18] If you used anxiety
[122:21] in childhood, if you used the anxiety
[122:24] to
[122:26] to get attention.
[122:28] What if you complained as a child and
[122:30] you went around and said, you know, oh,
[122:32] I you know, I'm worried about this and
[122:34] I'm and and so, in a way, it serves a
[122:37] purpose. That anxiety, that um Um, that
[122:40] complaining, that expression of emotion,
[122:42] it gets the attention from your parents
[122:44] and suddenly and I do believe that
[122:47] there's a lot of this going on. A lot of
[122:49] kids are breaking down and saying, "I'm
[122:51] anxious. I'm depressed." I do think many
[122:54] of them are, but I also think that many
[122:56] of them
[122:57] need their parents to understand them.
[123:02] So, that would be what I call It's a
[123:04] defense, but it's an unhealthy defense
[123:07] because what ends up happening is that
[123:09] the parents stop being able to hear them
[123:13] because they complain and the anxiety
[123:16] starts to grate on the parents and the
[123:17] parents pull away, right?
[123:20] Um, and so, what would be a better
[123:22] defense for that child is to learn how
[123:24] to express what they need from their
[123:27] parents instead of just saying, "I feel
[123:29] anxious." or "I feel depressed." but to
[123:32] actually say, "You know, Mom and Dad,
[123:35] you don't really spend any time with me.
[123:37] You don't really And when you're home,
[123:39] you're distracted and you're on your
[123:40] computer and your iPads and and you're
[123:43] not You don't really seem that
[123:44] interested in me." And so, that's a
[123:47] better way of going about getting the
[123:50] attention that they need. So, you're
[123:51] never taking something away from someone
[123:53] unless you have something better to give
[123:55] them. And that's a myth of therapy,
[123:58] right? So, people feel that they're
[124:00] going to go into therapy and be left
[124:01] defenseless. Now, defensiveness, which
[124:04] you mentioned, is a different thing
[124:07] entirely.
[124:08] When someone is defensive, it means that
[124:11] it's um, an unhealthy defense. It means
[124:15] that you hit something. So, when you say
[124:17] to your friend, "Do you have any
[124:18] childhood trauma?" and they say,
[124:20] "Absolutely not. What do you
[124:23] That defensiveness, as opposed to
[124:24] someone who says,
[124:26] "You know, I I can't think of any. I
[124:29] Maybe Maybe what You know, so the
[124:31] ability to introspect about the good and
[124:35] the bad and integrate the good and the
[124:36] bad is a is a healthy sign. If you have
[124:38] a friend who can't talk about the
[124:40] sadness of their childhood
[124:43] or a friend who can't talk about the
[124:45] happiness,
[124:46] who can't integrate the good and the bad
[124:48] of their childhood, you know something
[124:50] happened there.
[124:51] And if you have a friend who won't talk
[124:52] at all, then you really know something
[124:54] happened there. You hit
[124:57] a sensitive spot.
[124:58] Aren't daddy issues real? Because the
[125:00] time is thrown around in culture like,
[125:02] "Oh, she has daddy issues." It's
[125:03] typically she has daddy issues, isn't
[125:05] it?
[125:06] Right. So, there's something called
[125:07] Oedipal development, which is
[125:10] sexual development. It's really
[125:11] relational development, but it's sexual
[125:13] development, which is that all little
[125:15] boys
[125:17] fall in love romantically with their
[125:18] mothers and want to marry them. So, all
[125:20] little boys say, "I want to marry you,
[125:22] Mommy. Daddy, get lost." It's sort of
[125:24] like that. And all little girls want to
[125:27] be daddy's little princess and marry
[125:28] daddy and want Mommy to get lost. And
[125:30] it's this period of about
[125:34] oh, three to six. Three to six years
[125:37] old. And I always prepare parents for
[125:39] this. Fathers need to reinforce
[125:42] themselves and feel secure enough so
[125:44] when their little boys who have been
[125:45] their buddies and who have loved them,
[125:48] when their little boys say, "Bye-bye,
[125:49] Daddy. Get lost."
[125:52] They don't react. They don't go into a
[125:54] deep depression. They just they hold it
[125:56] and they say, "Oh, I get it. You love
[125:58] Mommy. That's okay." Same with little
[126:01] girls. If their mothers overreact,
[126:04] become angry at them, reject them, say,
[126:07] "Ugh, you just love your daddy." And so,
[126:10] but if daddies are not present enough
[126:13] for little girls, it doesn't form so our
[126:16] first
[126:18] romantic relationships are with our
[126:20] opposite sex parent. So, as a little
[126:22] boy, your first romantic relationship is
[126:24] with your mother. As a little girl, your
[126:25] first romantic relationship is with your
[126:27] father.
[126:28] If your opposite sex parent is not
[126:31] present at all.
[126:32] There's a loss there.
[126:35] So, you know, sometimes what can happen
[126:38] is if you don't have a present father or
[126:41] if your father is really just absent or
[126:44] if he's physically present but
[126:45] emotionally absent, you spend your life
[126:48] looking for that kind of Oedipal
[126:50] connection.
[126:51] That kind of admiration, that kind of
[126:53] love, that kind of
[126:55] um you know, for someone to love you in
[126:58] the way that a father loves a little
[127:00] girl. But with distrust built in.
[127:03] Well, not necessarily. I mean, sometimes
[127:06] it's too much trust. I mean, if you are
[127:09] hungry
[127:10] and somebody offers you scraps, you'll
[127:12] take the scraps.
[127:14] Right? If you're hungry and somebody
[127:16] says, "Here's some crumbs of a muffin."
[127:18] So, the problem is that But what if they
[127:22] offered me the scraps and sometimes the
[127:24] scraps, as I went to reach for them,
[127:26] walked out
[127:27] and didn't come back?
[127:28] Then I might develop a relationship that
[127:30] it's not safe to trust the scraps
[127:32] because So, that's a father who's
[127:35] negligent. But it still leaves that
[127:37] little It still can leave that little
[127:39] girl with a strong desire to be loved in
[127:43] that way. So, it's like a missing
[127:46] There's a missing piece, right? So,
[127:48] you'd say the romantic relationship with
[127:50] the opposite sex parent
[127:53] is a very important part of our sexual
[127:55] development.
[127:57] And our relational development. And so,
[127:58] it becomes a missing piece for that
[128:01] child who then grows into that adult. Um
[128:04] If a father was abusive
[128:07] to a little girl, then, you know, that
[128:09] little girl may do what we call a
[128:11] neurotic repetition, which is she seeks
[128:13] out abusive men because that's the only
[128:15] kind of love that she knew or
[128:18] understood. So,
[128:20] you know, you have to remember that that
[128:21] children perceive of the relationship
[128:24] with your with their parent as loving,
[128:26] no matter what the parent does to them.
[128:27] I used to work when I was a young social
[128:29] worker in foster care.
[128:31] And the children who were physically
[128:34] abused by their parents and neglected
[128:37] terribly
[128:38] still wanted to be with their mothers
[128:40] and fathers. They didn't want to be
[128:42] taken away because that's that was their
[128:45] mother and father and they perceived of
[128:46] that as love.
[128:48] So, however we're raised, we perceive of
[128:51] that as love. The problem is if it's not
[128:52] healthy love, then we can neurotically
[128:55] repeat or repeat that in our adult
[128:57] lives.
[128:58] Men. Mhm. Young boys and men. I was
[129:01] looking at some stats earlier on that
[129:03] said there's been
[129:05] increased sexual inactivity amongst
[129:07] young men, which is an interesting stat.
[129:09] It's risen to almost 31% of men between
[129:12] the ages of 18 and 24 reporting no
[129:14] sexual activity in the past year. So,
[129:16] that's almost doubled in a in about the
[129:18] space of 18 years.
[129:20] Here's an interesting stat.
[129:22] High suicide rates amongst men. Men
[129:23] account for nearly 80% of all suicides
[129:25] in the US. The highest rate observed
[129:27] among 45 to 64-year-olds. Globally,
[129:30] suicide is the leading cause of death
[129:32] amongst young men and a survey conducted
[129:34] in the UK found that an increasing
[129:36] amount of men feel hopeless and
[129:39] worthless. Mhm. And that are struggling
[129:42] with finding meaning and purpose in the
[129:43] world. Mhm.
[129:45] The plight of young men. You talk in
[129:47] your books and in your work about Yeah.
[129:49] how the role of a man has changed and
[129:52] how that this might not be necessarily
[129:55] productive for the health and well-being
[129:56] of a man. Yeah. We've taken away their
[129:59] purpose. When you take a human being's
[130:00] purpose away,
[130:02] I remember the purpose for men was to
[130:05] protect their family.
[130:07] Was to
[130:09] it was to hunt in the old days, feed
[130:11] their families, but it was also to
[130:13] protect their families.
[130:15] It was to provide for their families.
[130:18] And what we've done in reversing
[130:21] everything
[130:22] is although we raised up women and there
[130:24] are certainly positive things about
[130:27] raising up women.
[130:28] But when we raised up women, we
[130:30] denigrated men. And I have two sons, so
[130:33] this is
[130:34] very personal for me. Um and I also see
[130:37] a lot of young men in my practice, um
[130:40] young adult men. And what I'll say is
[130:42] that they feel discouraged, they feel
[130:45] purposeless,
[130:47] they feel diminished. Um
[130:51] yeah. And there has been something
[130:53] vengeful, I think,
[130:56] about So, the feminist movement was
[130:59] meant to give women choice and to
[131:01] balance off what was imbalanced in
[131:04] society. But there's something vengeful
[131:06] about it, I think at moments. I feel
[131:09] like there's something vengeful about
[131:10] the modern feminist movement, which is
[131:13] let's get them, let's diminish them,
[131:15] let's take over, let's push them out,
[131:18] let's you know, let's beat them up,
[131:20] let's get you know, let's show them
[131:21] who's I mean, something really vengeful.
[131:24] So, it and so for me, the feminist
[131:26] movement was meant to create balance. It
[131:29] wasn't meant to
[131:31] it it wasn't meant to set into play this
[131:34] other kind of imbalance. And
[131:37] you know, more than I think 60% of
[131:39] universities are women now, as well as
[131:41] graduate schools. And so that means and
[131:44] the studies show that men will marry at
[131:48] their educational level or below. Women
[131:51] will only marry at their educational
[131:53] level or above.
[131:55] And by diminishing men so much in terms
[132:00] of our education and professions,
[132:03] we've basically taken men's purpose
[132:05] away. They feel purposeless. And the
[132:08] other thing is, and I'm going to say,
[132:11] when men stay home to nurture their
[132:13] children, now remember as mammals, we
[132:16] have defined roles. That is not
[132:17] instinctual for men to stay home and
[132:19] nurture their young.
[132:21] It It's just It's a reverse of
[132:22] something.
[132:24] And the issue there is that there's an
[132:27] inverse relationship between oxytocin
[132:31] and testosterone.
[132:33] The higher the oxytocin,
[132:36] guess what? The lower the testosterone.
[132:38] Yes.
[132:39] So, if we're staying at home bonding,
[132:42] There's a reason for that. So, mammals,
[132:46] when they are nurturing their young,
[132:49] they don't want somebody mating with
[132:51] them. Go away, right? So, the idea is
[132:53] that when a female
[132:56] nurtures, she doesn't want to have sex.
[132:59] She doesn't want to, right? So, the
[133:01] investment in nurturing pushes away the
[133:05] investment in mating.
[133:07] And this is why I've read so many stats
[133:08] around men's testosterone dropping when
[133:10] they become fathers.
[133:12] Um some
[133:14] Yeah, I was really
[133:15] I I couldn't believe that was true when
[133:17] I read it.
[133:17] It's true.
[133:18] There were some studies to talk about
[133:20] how women's testosterone goes up. Women
[133:23] have testosterone.
[133:24] When they're out in the work world
[133:26] fighting like men, that their
[133:27] testosterone goes up. And men's
[133:29] testosterone when they stay home goes
[133:31] down. Now, what that's doing for sex
[133:32] lives, um there's some research about
[133:35] you know, it That is the next wave,
[133:39] which is what does it do to sex lives?
[133:41] Because men have to perform. They have
[133:43] to get it up. To be crude.
[133:45] Tell me about Um and so, if your
[133:48] testosterone is low, you're not going to
[133:50] get it up, right? Which is why there's
[133:52] all this Viagra and these patches and
[133:55] supplements and, you know, because
[133:58] it's not it's not instinctually normal
[134:00] for husbands to stay home and nurture
[134:02] their children. And that's the
[134:04] inconvenient truth.
[134:06] How that affects men's and women's sex
[134:08] life when women come home from their
[134:11] banking jobs and their law jobs um
[134:14] did their husbands
[134:16] not want to have sex with them and you
[134:18] know, is that breaking up so I mean so
[134:20] this is all the I think this is the next
[134:22] wave of we've reversed things societally
[134:25] so fast.
[134:28] And then we hope that our evolutionary
[134:31] bodily responses
[134:33] are just going to catch up in in merely
[134:36] a century.
[134:37] And it just doesn't evolution doesn't
[134:40] work like that. It takes hundreds if not
[134:42] thousands of years to change our
[134:44] our bodily evolutionary responses,
[134:46] right? Our instinctual responses. So
[134:49] this is you know
[134:51] it's it's problematic. Um and also when
[134:53] men's testosterone goes down they get
[134:55] depressed.
[134:57] So they don't perform sexually well,
[134:59] they get depressed, they feel
[135:00] purposeless.
[135:03] Um they can't do what they're
[135:05] instinctually supposed to do which is
[135:07] provide, protect, hunt, you know, we
[135:10] talk about DEI. I mean, why aren't we
[135:12] talking about DEI when it when it when
[135:16] it comes to men and women? Why aren't we
[135:18] talking about balancing the scales,
[135:20] giving men purpose again?
[135:22] Um and and honestly, we should be
[135:24] talking about what happens to men when
[135:26] they actually do stay home and nurture
[135:28] their young. Does this does to support
[135:29] the idea that if you're at home raising
[135:32] your kids as a man, you have you
[135:34] struggle in the bedroom?
[135:36] So there was some research I know that
[135:38] was going on about that how it affects
[135:40] sex drive, but when your testosterone
[135:42] goes down, it does affect sex drive.
[135:44] Mhm.
[135:45] We're just not talking about it. So I
[135:47] have anecdotal patients. I have a
[135:49] patient who whose whose wife was a
[135:52] hardcore
[135:53] woman in finance and
[135:56] you know, he he couldn't
[135:59] he lost interest in her. He had to go
[136:02] out of the marriage and have affairs
[136:04] with women who were more feminine, who
[136:06] were more
[136:08] so he could feel
[136:10] as if he could play that masculine role.
[136:11] He couldn't do that in his marriage.
[136:15] And so, are we going to see
[136:18] kind of a shift in society as a result
[136:21] of this? We're already seeing it. I
[136:22] mean, the other thing that we're doing
[136:23] is to young boys. Let's talk about what
[136:25] we're doing to young boys.
[136:28] This starts very young.
[136:30] We basically educate young boys in a way
[136:34] that really favors girls. You know, from
[136:38] a very young age we talk about being
[136:40] able to sit quietly and regulate your
[136:41] emotions and not be aggressive and not
[136:44] be impulsive. And these little boys are
[136:46] being diagnosed with ADHD, many of them
[136:49] just for being little boys. Little boys
[136:51] need to run around. They have a lot of
[136:53] physical energy. They have tons of
[136:54] testosterone. When you're like between 3
[136:56] and 6, you have a surge of testosterone
[136:59] and all you want to do is run and jump
[137:01] and play and be outside. And what we're
[137:03] doing, we're putting them in school,
[137:05] making them sit in circle time. So, so
[137:07] we marginalize them, we label them, we
[137:10] say they have a problem, we say that
[137:12] they have ADHD, they have behavioral
[137:14] problems. And in many of them, the
[137:16] stress that I talked about is the stress
[137:19] of making little boys be more like
[137:20] little girls.
[137:23] And that's where it starts. And so then
[137:25] they go into childhood
[137:27] and again, the educational system favors
[137:30] the way girls learn, not the way boys
[137:32] learn. How do boys learn?
[137:34] Boys have attention spans for very short
[137:38] periods of time and then they need lots
[137:41] of physical activity.
[137:43] So, ideally, if you go to and look at
[137:44] the boys' schools, what do they do?
[137:47] They run the boys like running the dogs
[137:49] in the park.
[137:51] They sit for 45 minutes or half an hour,
[137:53] but then the boys get time off to run
[137:56] around. And then they'll sit another
[137:57] half an hour and then they'll run
[137:59] around. I mean, they have like four
[138:00] recess periods a day.
[138:02] And so, that's really better for boys.
[138:05] And little girls have more of a capacity
[138:07] to sit quietly in circle time and and
[138:10] sort of, you know, they're they don't
[138:12] have as much testosterone. They don't
[138:14] have that need to run and jump and play
[138:15] to the same degree that little boys do.
[138:17] They do need to play. We're not letting
[138:19] our kids play, boys and girls,
[138:21] because we're trying to force left brain
[138:23] development on them too early, but
[138:26] we are forcing little boys into this box
[138:30] and they're not doing well in that box.
[138:33] And then they're labeled. They're
[138:34] labeled as having behavioral problems,
[138:36] ADHD, and that label then follows them
[138:40] through childhood, sometimes into middle
[138:43] school, into into high school.
[138:46] Yeah. What would you change? I make you
[138:48] prime minister of the world, president
[138:51] of the world, and you can fix this
[138:52] issue.
[138:53] Oh, I would have little boys educated
[138:55] separately than little girls in the
[138:57] early years. In the early years, I would
[138:59] have boys schools and girls schools, cuz
[139:01] little little girls learn differently.
[139:02] And also, there's been a lot of evidence
[139:04] to show that in the early years,
[139:07] when you do single gender education,
[139:10] little girls will try things, will take
[139:12] risks with things that they wouldn't in
[139:15] front of little boys. And little boys
[139:16] will try things that they wouldn't take
[139:18] risks in front of little girls. Like,
[139:19] little boys are more likely to try art
[139:21] and painting and music.
[139:23] Little girls are more likely to try STEM
[139:25] and math and you know, all these things
[139:27] that we talk about little girls should
[139:28] do. So, the the idea is that um single
[139:33] gender education in the early years is
[139:35] is better for little kids because they
[139:38] learn differently.
[139:38] What about as it relates to men?
[139:41] What would you change to fix the issues
[139:42] you were talking about with testosterone
[139:44] and those kinds of issues?
[139:48] Talk about it. We should be talking
[139:50] about it. We don't talk about this
[139:51] issue. How much how many times have you
[139:53] heard what I just said? People don't
[139:55] talk about the fact that
[139:57] when you raise when if we're going to
[139:59] flip this around and have men be the
[140:01] nurturers, they're going to have pretty
[140:03] low testosterone.
[140:05] You're going to have to supplement their
[140:07] testosterone.
[140:09] And so, you know, and also you take
[140:12] their purpose away evolutionarily and
[140:14] they get depressed.
[140:16] Women have many sources of self-esteem.
[140:20] They have work, they have children,
[140:23] they're relational.
[140:25] And for the most part, historically, men
[140:28] found their self-esteem from meaningful
[140:31] purposeful work and also from protecting
[140:33] their families. So, what we've done is
[140:35] we've taken their purposeful work
[140:36] outside the home away. We've made their
[140:39] purposeful work staying home with
[140:40] children.
[140:42] And
[140:43] you know, we've lowered the
[140:44] testosterone. So, if you look at it and
[140:46] say, we're trying to switch, it's like a
[140:49] social experiment. We're trying to
[140:50] change something
[140:52] that's taken thousands of years of
[140:54] evolution to create in just,
[140:57] you know, less than 100 years. And it's,
[141:00] you know, it's problematic.
[141:02] So, what would I do? I would talk about
[141:05] it. I would have couples talk about it.
[141:06] I think they need to talk about the
[141:09] competitiveness. I think they need to
[141:10] talk about the the envy and the jealousy
[141:15] and and even the the disappointment. I
[141:18] mean, a woman who comes home and sees
[141:20] her husband caring for the children. On
[141:22] one hand, she might say, "Oh, my
[141:23] husband's so sweet and loving and I love
[141:25] that he cares for my children." And on
[141:27] the other hand, she says to her friends,
[141:29] "I wish he was bringing in more money
[141:30] and I wish he was taking care, you know,
[141:32] I wish he was taking care of me." So,
[141:34] it's problematic. There was a
[141:36] longitudinal study done in the
[141:37] Philippines that followed 624 men over
[141:40] almost 5 years and found that those who
[141:42] became fathers experienced a significant
[141:44] decline in testosterone levels.
[141:46] Specifically, newly partnered fathers
[141:47] had a medium decrease
[141:49] of almost 30% in morning testosterone
[141:52] and 35% in evening testosterone, which
[141:54] was significantly greater than the
[141:55] declines observed in single non-fathers.
[141:58] Moreover, fathers who reported spending
[142:00] three or more hours daily in child care
[142:03] had lower testosterone levels compared
[142:05] to those less involved in caregiving.
[142:08] And there's also an impact on
[142:09] co-sleeping, where research indicates
[142:11] that fathers who co-sleep with their
[142:13] children exhibit lower testosterone
[142:14] levels than those who do not. This
[142:16] suggests that close proximity during
[142:18] sleep may further influence hormonal
[142:20] changes associated with caregiving. One
[142:22] of the arguments I've heard before as to
[142:24] why men's testosterone dips if they're
[142:28] new fathers is because it's an
[142:29] evolutionary reason to make us not go
[142:31] out and cheat on our partner and take
[142:32] care of our kids. Well, it's investment
[142:34] in it. So, either you're invested in
[142:36] mating or you're invested in caring for
[142:40] your children.
[142:41] Yes and no, because you still need to
[142:44] have testosterone to have a relationship
[142:46] with your wife, a satisfying
[142:48] relationship. So, and unfortunately,
[142:50] that doesn't stop men from going out and
[142:52] cheating on their wives because a
[142:54] healthy man would say, you know, well,
[142:57] we used to have sex twice a day every
[142:59] day, and now that we have a baby, we
[143:01] only have sex once or twice a week cuz
[143:04] the baby's so small and and a healthy
[143:06] man would say that's enough. I can
[143:08] compartmentalize. I can Right? A less
[143:11] healthy man might say, "I'm going to go
[143:13] out and get it someplace else because I
[143:15] can't get it here." So, yeah. I mean,
[143:18] there's nuance to all the questions
[143:20] you're asking, but what I would say is
[143:22] that testosterone going down a little
[143:24] bit when you have a baby in the bed is
[143:26] fine, but the kind of testosterone we're
[143:28] talking about going down when you stay
[143:30] home and nurture,
[143:32] um
[143:34] we'll see. It could be problematic.
[143:37] My last question is about devices and
[143:38] technology. Yeah. There's been a lot of
[143:40] books written recently and a lot of
[143:41] conversation around the impact that
[143:42] screens, social media, mobile phones
[143:44] have on children. What is your thoughts
[143:47] and philosophy towards raising healthy
[143:49] kids in a world of technology?
[143:51] Well, I think it's the American
[143:53] Pediatric Association says no technology
[143:56] under the age of two for good reason.
[143:59] No iPhones, no iPads, right?
[144:03] Um
[144:04] you want to sit and watch a Mr. Rogers
[144:07] when your baby is two together, a rerun
[144:10] of Mr. Rogers' Neighborhood, that's
[144:12] fine, but no technology.
[144:14] After that, you want to really regulate
[144:17] that technology. Now, why is that
[144:18] important? Because technology
[144:22] raises dopamine levels in your brain,
[144:25] which is why adults get addicted to it,
[144:26] too. It's very addictive.
[144:28] Um and the problem is that with adults
[144:32] when you have when you look at
[144:34] technology, it does raise your dopamine,
[144:37] but um there were there was some
[144:39] research to show that technology raises
[144:41] the dopamine
[144:43] in an adolescent's brain tenfold to that
[144:45] of of So, in other words, it would be
[144:48] like if you smoked a joint,
[144:50] it would, you know, make you high. If an
[144:53] adolescent smoked the same joint, it
[144:55] would make them 10 times higher. It has
[144:58] to do with the um the the sensitivity of
[145:01] the brain to dopamine
[145:03] and the lack of regulation. So, um the
[145:06] prefrontal cortex is the part of the
[145:08] brain that regulates emotions,
[145:10] and it's not fully developed till about
[145:12] 25. So, all that dopamine that has to be
[145:15] regulated is more easily regulated in an
[145:18] adult than an adolescent. So, it's not
[145:20] good because it leads to addiction.
[145:22] Okay. It's not good because uh
[145:24] particularly social media, but all kinds
[145:27] of technology, they they get the
[145:29] amygdala going. Remember that that
[145:31] little almond-shaped stress-regulating
[145:33] part of the brain? It turns on the
[145:35] stress reaction.
[145:37] Um which you don't want to do
[145:39] chronically. There's lots of problems
[145:41] with that. Um and in the case of social
[145:44] media with adolescents, particularly
[145:46] adolescent girls,
[145:48] it takes advantage. I mean, you have to
[145:50] say that this was invented to take
[145:52] advantage. It's not a coincidence.
[145:55] Uh, it's manipulatively created um,
[145:59] because the reason that it's so bad for
[146:02] teenage girls' brains is because
[146:05] the self-consciousness,
[146:07] the perfectionism
[146:09] is all the brain in a hyper-alert state
[146:12] of stress and fear.
[146:15] You're putting those girls and boys into
[146:19] a hyper-vigilant state of fear and
[146:22] stress, right? I have to be perfect. I
[146:25] don't look as good as them. Uh, my my
[146:27] dress isn't as pretty. So, so you're
[146:30] putting children into a fear state and
[146:32] then they they can't separate from the
[146:34] device. It's like they get
[146:37] There was a movie, I think it was called
[146:39] Inception, where you could get stuck in
[146:43] a paradigm. You could get stuck in this
[146:46] fantasy, right? In a in a virtual
[146:48] reality. In a way, they get trapped in
[146:52] this, uh, paradigm of perfectionism,
[146:55] social isolation, self-consciousness,
[146:58] which is all the brain in a
[147:01] hyper-vigilant state of stress. Anxiety.
[147:04] So, not good at all. Not good for
[147:07] adults, much worse for adolescent
[147:09] brains. What is the most important thing
[147:11] we should have talked about today that
[147:12] we didn't talk about so far?
[147:15] Uh, I think we talked about a lot, but
[147:18] um, I think
[147:19] you know,
[147:21] what I would say is that, um,
[147:24] presence is just so critical to children
[147:28] and there's no replacement. This idea
[147:31] that we have as a society
[147:33] that caregiving of children is something
[147:37] that can be generically assigned to
[147:39] others, that you can delegate. Delegate
[147:42] other things to others. Delegate your
[147:44] accounting, delegate your laundry,
[147:46] delegate your cooking. If you're a CEO,
[147:49] delegate everything you can.
[147:52] But, spend time with your children.
[147:55] Your relationship with them,
[147:57] their mental health, depends upon it.
[148:01] And that's not something we say. We say,
[148:05] "Work, work, work, work. Make more
[148:06] money. Everybody work, work, work, work.
[148:07] And and your children will be just
[148:09] fine." Well, clearly, our children are
[148:11] not just fine. What do I do as an
[148:13] employer?
[148:14] I employ lots of people, and I'm
[148:15] thinking, "Shit.
[148:17] Do I need to give people 3 years off
[148:18] when they have a kid? Is that the
[148:21] Well, in my opinion, give them as much
[148:24] time off as you possibly can.
[148:26] Men and women? Men and women. Whoever is
[148:29] the primary attachment figure. I would
[148:31] say whoever's going to really be
[148:32] responsible for caring for that child.
[148:34] Um
[148:36] but then give them options. Give them
[148:39] choices of how to work in the years that
[148:42] their children are very young.
[148:43] Give them options to work part-time, or
[148:47] to share a job, or to work from home
[148:50] half of the week, so they don't have to
[148:52] leave their child, and still they can
[148:54] work. Um
[148:56] give them choices and options that allow
[148:58] them for some flexibility and control.
[149:01] Um if you know that a an employee has
[149:04] young children, accept the fact that,
[149:07] you know, they may need to leave early,
[149:09] and not stay as late as as other people
[149:11] who don't have children. And that's
[149:13] going to make the people who don't have
[149:14] children angry. And you know what?
[149:16] Tough.
[149:18] Cuz that's what those children need.
[149:20] Life isn't fair. It's not always fair.
[149:23] And if you want to have a child, you too
[149:25] could have that.
[149:27] But, the idea of exact parity,
[149:30] tough. Cuz that's what society needs. It
[149:33] needs healthy children. If you're going
[149:34] to have a child and you need to leave
[149:37] every day at 4:00 so you're home for
[149:39] your children,
[149:40] so flexibility, control, options, as
[149:44] much time off in the beginning as
[149:46] possible.
[149:48] You realize that some of the things you
[149:49] say are controversial. Or not Almost all
[149:51] of them.
[149:53] Yeah. Why do you say them anyway?
[149:55] Because somebody asked to.
[149:58] Cuz they're the inconvenient truths that
[150:00] are stopping us from having healthy
[150:02] children
[150:04] who grow into unhealthy adults.
[150:07] And so somebody has to say these things.
[150:10] And if you're too worried about people
[150:12] liking you,
[150:13] then you don't sometimes say what needs
[150:15] to be said.
[150:17] Unfortunately, I don't care if people
[150:19] like me, but I do care
[150:21] that people like their children and want
[150:23] to be with their children.
[150:25] So that's why I say these things.
[150:27] Why is it so personal to you? I can see
[150:28] it in your face.
[150:31] Well, then you'd have to ask me about my
[150:33] own personal story. My personal story,
[150:35] just to wrap it up quickly, is that my
[150:38] own mother was a very loving mother,
[150:41] but could dissociate.
[150:43] And by dissociate, she had a lot of
[150:45] trauma as a child, and I think she
[150:47] managed it by
[150:49] emotionally, she was like a little girl.
[150:52] She's very sweet, but she was like a
[150:53] little girl.
[150:55] And so I couldn't always feel her. I
[150:57] couldn't She was like sand that slipped
[151:00] through my fingers. So I can remember
[151:02] the pain,
[151:03] but she was She was there physically,
[151:05] but I could remember the pain of the
[151:07] absence of her mind.
[151:09] And uh she could feel for me, which is
[151:12] why I have such compassion.
[151:15] But she couldn't think about me. So
[151:17] there's two things parents have to be
[151:19] able to do for children. They have to be
[151:21] able to feel for them. They have to feel
[151:23] empathy for their pain, for their
[151:25] distress. They cannot look away from
[151:27] their children's pain and distress. You
[151:29] cannot look away. You do not have the
[151:31] luxury of looking away from your
[151:33] children's distress. But you also have
[151:36] to be able to think about them and be
[151:38] able to think about who they are. My
[151:41] mother could feel for me, but she
[151:43] couldn't think about me cuz she would
[151:45] dissociate. So, my own personal pain is
[151:48] having had a loving mother who had some
[151:50] limitations.
[151:52] And so, it made me want to be a better
[151:55] mother, but it also made me want to
[151:57] treat people who want to be better
[151:59] mothers and fathers.
[152:02] What were the symptoms that that had on
[152:03] you as a young woman growing up? As an
[152:06] adolescent.
[152:07] I struggled socially and I struggled
[152:11] uh with my identity and personally and
[152:13] you know, self-esteem, I would say. And
[152:17] uh it wasn't until I went into therapy.
[152:19] Um oh, I tried a lot of things in my
[152:21] 20s. I worked in television production.
[152:24] I worked in uh
[152:26] uh I worked on Capitol Hill. I worked I
[152:29] worked in many different public
[152:30] relations. And in the end, I found
[152:33] myself sitting in my therapist's office
[152:36] one day
[152:37] and looking around and saying, "This is
[152:40] where I want to be.
[152:41] I want to be I want to do what she does
[152:44] and I want to help people the way she's
[152:47] helped me."
[152:48] So, that relationship with my first
[152:50] therapist and then my second therapist
[152:53] and you know, as psychoanalysts, we have
[152:56] to be in treatment for many, many, many
[152:58] years because the point is
[153:00] we have to work on ourselves so deeply
[153:04] that we don't
[153:06] do harm to patients inadvertently with
[153:08] our own issues. So, we have to be very,
[153:10] as we say, very organized as a person.
[153:13] Um but yeah, so that's my personal story
[153:16] and why mothering is so important to me
[153:18] and the vulnerability of babies is so
[153:21] important to me.
[153:24] Erica, we have a closing tradition on
[153:25] this podcast where the last guest leaves
[153:26] a question for the next guest not
[153:28] knowing who they are leaving it for.
[153:30] Mhm. And the question that has been left
[153:32] for you Okay. is
[153:35] what does your obituary say?
[153:39] Oh my gosh.
[153:41] I want to know who left that.
[153:43] You're going to tell me after.
[153:46] Oh boy, what does my obituary say?
[153:50] Um
[153:52] kind
[153:55] generous
[153:58] um compassionate
[154:02] fervent in her beliefs, stubborn as hell
[154:07] a good friend, a good mother
[154:10] a wonderful wife.
[154:14] Yeah.
[154:18] I think it will.
[154:20] I certainly think it will.
[154:23] And I think there'd also be
[154:25] an additional couple of sentences there
[154:26] that speak to the value that you've
[154:28] given to the world through the work that
[154:29] you do.
[154:30] Now, people might not agree with
[154:31] everything you say because people have
[154:33] lots of different opinions on these
[154:34] subjects.
[154:35] But
[154:36] I'm of the opinion that people who are
[154:39] willing to deliver their thoughts, their
[154:41] truth based on the science that
[154:43] they've experienced and that they've
[154:45] read and what they've studied and the
[154:46] experiences they've had, the clients
[154:47] that they've seen
[154:49] is so unbelievably important because I
[154:51] think if we look back through history,
[154:52] progress has occurred when people have
[154:54] dissented from the accepted narrative.
[154:57] In fact, I probably wouldn't be able to
[154:59] sit here in America as a black man if it
[155:01] wasn't for people who had the courage of
[155:03] their convictions to dissent from
[155:05] certain narratives. And so, I've always
[155:07] I think I've had it hardwired into me
[155:09] that
[155:10] disagreement is productive
[155:12] especially when it's well-meaning. And
[155:14] that's exactly
[155:16] how I see your work. I think that you're
[155:18] challenging a narrative and bringing
[155:21] evidence and a new opinion to the table.
[155:23] A different perspective that I think is
[155:24] very very important for so many. And
[155:26] it's been so interesting for me because
[155:28] I've struggled, you know, I'm
[155:29] approaching that season of life where I
[155:31] become a father and I'm reading all this
[155:33] stuff about leave your kid to cry on the
[155:35] floor in the supermarket or um put them
[155:38] in timeout or um Oh, I am so giving you
[155:41] my number. Yeah, I know, but I I so I've
[155:43] been trying to wade through this storm
[155:44] of like good parenting advice and
[155:46] and stuff and it's it's really
[155:48] wonderful to hear your perspective
[155:50] because it is a counter perspective.
[155:51] It's a perspective that nobody really
[155:53] wants to say out loud.
[155:55] Um
[155:56] and therefore for me it's useful. Thank
[155:58] you, Erica. Thank you so much for your
[155:59] time and generosity today. I really
[156:00] really appreciate it and please um
[156:02] continue to do the work you do and I'm
[156:03] very excited for your upcoming book. I
[156:05] think it's next year, isn't it?
[156:06] It is. About divorces. Mhm. Um if anyone
[156:09] wants to find more of your work, we've
[156:11] got these two exceptional books here.
[156:12] Being There: Why Prioritizing Motherhood
[156:14] is the First in the First Three Years
[156:15] Matters, which is a wonderful book that
[156:17] was published in 2017, I believe. And
[156:19] then this one here, Chicken Little: The
[156:20] Sky Isn't Falling, Raising Resilient
[156:22] Adolescents in the New Age of Anxiety,
[156:24] which was published
[156:25] in '21, I believe. Um I'll link both of
[156:28] these below. I highly recommend you read
[156:29] these books if you're interested in
[156:31] these subjects like I am.
[156:32] Um but where else can people find you?
[156:35] www.komisar,
[156:37] k o m i s a r.com.
[156:40] And also at Attachment Circles, the
[156:43] website should be up and running soon.
[156:45] Uh if you're looking for community and
[156:47] education, um come to Attachment
[156:51] Circles. Great. I'll link both of those
[156:53] below wherever you're listening to this
[156:54] now. Erica, thank you. Thank you for
[156:56] having me. Some of the most successful,
[156:58] fascinating, and insightful people in
[156:59] the world have sat across from me at
[157:01] this table. And at the end of every
[157:02] conversation, I ask them to leave a
[157:04] question behind in the famous Diary of a
[157:07] CEO. And it's a question designed to
[157:08] spark the kind of conversations that
[157:10] matter most, the kind of conversations
[157:12] that can change your life. We then take
[157:14] those questions and we put them on these
[157:16] cards. On every single card, you can see
[157:19] the person who left the question, the
[157:22] question they asked, and on the other
[157:24] side if you scan that barcode, you can
[157:26] see who answered it next. Something I
[157:28] know a lot of you have wanted to know.
[157:30] And the only way to find out
[157:32] is by getting yourself some conversation
[157:33] cards, which you can play at home with
[157:35] friends and family, at work with
[157:36] colleagues, and also with total
[157:38] strangers on holiday. I'll put a link to
[157:40] the conversation cards in the
[157:41] description below and you can get yours
[157:42] at the diary.com.
[157:44] This has always blown my mind a little
[157:46] bit. 53% of you that listen to this show
[157:49] regularly haven't yet subscribed to this
[157:51] show. So, could I ask you for a favor?
[157:53] If you like this show and you like what
[157:54] we do here and you want to support us,
[157:55] the free simple way that you can do just
[157:57] that is by hitting the subscribe button.
[157:59] And my commitment to you is if you do
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[158:02] power, me and my team, to make sure that
[158:04] this show is better for you every single
[158:05] week. We'll listen to your feedback,
[158:07] we'll find the guests that you want me
[158:08] to speak to, and we'll continue to do
[158:10] what we do. Thank you so much.
