Michelle Obama Rejects Political Norms to Focus on Purpose

米歇尔·奥巴马打破政治惯例 专注于人生追求 米歇尔·奥巴马表示，在数十年的公共服务之后，她缺席了唐纳德·特朗普的就职典礼，以此确立个人界限并保护身心健康。 米歇尔·奥巴马与她的哥哥克雷格·罗宾逊（Craig Robinson）做客史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）的节目，分享了他们在芝加哥南区的童年经历，以及父母弗雷泽（Fraser）与玛丽安·罗宾逊（Marian Robinson）灌输给他们的核心价值观。米歇尔敞开心扉，讲述了自己从从事公司法业务转向公共服务的过程、与巴拉克·奥巴马的相识相恋、面临的生育困境，以及抚育子女过程中应对婚姻摩擦的真实状况。她还详细回忆了作为美国首个非裔第一家庭所承受的严密审视与安全挑战、2024年母亲离世带来的沉重伤痛，以及在人生后半阶段自觉摆脱社会期望、树立坚定个人界限的抉择。 米歇尔与克雷格·罗宾逊在芝加哥南区一栋仅700平方英尺的简朴住宅中长大，父母向他们深刻灌输了同理心、正直、自律和社区意识等价值观。 (2:01) 弗雷泽·罗宾逊三世（Fraser Robinson III）尽管饱受进行性多发性硬化症的折磨，却坚持每日工作从未请过病假，展现了极大的坚韧。 (4:38) 玛丽安·罗宾逊坚定地捍卫子女的受教育权，在课堂秩序失控时质询学校教职人员，并促成米歇尔跳过了二年级。 (8:35) 在他们所住的南岸（Southshore）社区经历“白人群飞”现象，让米歇尔和克雷格看清了种族偏见的荒谬，并学会以自豪和同理心而非怨恨来面对。 (15:09) 在普林斯顿大学就读期间，米歇尔意识到隐性特权体系宛如一场精英主义的“骗局”，旨在让边缘化群体的学生感到自愧不如并怀疑自己的归属资格。 (23:45)

Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson argue that enduring resilience against prejudice and institutional gatekeeping requires deep family grounding, internal validation, and the courage to prioritize purpose and personal boundaries over external expectations. Foundational Upbringing and the Realities of White Flight (2:01) Growing up in a modest 700-square-foot second-floor apartment at 7436 South Euclid Avenue on Chicago's South Side, Michelle Obama and Craig Robinson were anchored by parents who prioritized honesty, service, and self-worth. Their father, Fraser Robinson III, worked consistently as a city pump operator without taking a sick day despite progressive multiple sclerosis, while their mother, Marian Robinson, fiercely advocated for their education, including stepping in to ensure Michelle skipped a dysfunctional second-grade classroom. This domestic stability provided a counterweight to societal racial hostility. During their childhood, the siblings observed the demographic transformation of their Southshore neighborhood as white families fled to the suburbs following the arrival of Black middle-class residents. Instead of internalizing this rapid departure as a sign of inferiority, they were taught to view racism as a symptom of ignorance and fear. Their parents enforced a strict standard: never allow external critics or bullies who were not seated at the family table to define personal value, treating empathy not merely as a moral virtue but as an essential survival mechanism against bitterness. Dismantling Institutional Meritocracy and Escaping Corporate Law (23:45) Upon entering Princeton University, Obama initially felt the intimidation associated with being viewed as an affirmative action admit, exacerbated by standardized test scores that did not reflect her capability. However, observing her peers revealed that affluent, legacy, and athletically recruited students regularly received structural advantages. After securing straight A's in her first semester through diligent work, she identified the narrative that marginalized students do not belong as a deliberate gatekeeping racket designed to protect seats of power. Despite achieving conventional markers of success as a high-earning corporate lawyer at Sidley Austin driving a Saab 900, Obama experienced an existential pivot following the consecutive deaths of her father and her close college friend Suzanne from lymphoma within a 12-month span. Recognizing the emptiness of life choices guided purely by status and checklist-driven security, and encouraged by Barack Obama—whom she characterized as an unconventional 'ultimate swerver'—she walked away from corporate partnership to enter public service under the mentorship of Valerie Jarrett. Partnership, Family Sacrifices, and White House Pressures (44:46) Obama challenges romanticized perceptions of marriage, noting that long-term relationships face structural friction once independent careers intersect with the shared burden of raising children. She emphasizes the physical and emotional disparities women face during family planning, discussing her own experiences with miscarriage and In Vitro Fertilization (IVF) to conceive Malia and Sasha while maintaining demanding professional responsibilities. Despite periodic anger and exhaustion, she and Barack operated under a shared commitment that quitting was not an option. When Barack ran for president, Michelle initially hesitated due to worries over physical safety, loss of privacy, and personal financial strains, such as out-of-pocket costs for groceries and travel in the White House. Once in the executive mansion, she actively fought institutional protocols to protect her daughters' upbringing, securing stable Secret Service detail leaders for them at Sidwell Friends School. In the face of intense public vitriol, racist tropes, and caricatures like the 'angry black woman,' she leaned on familial support and historical perspective, viewing detractor hostility as an outgrowth of broader societal anxiety rather than personal deficiency. Elder Wisdom, Agency, and Setting Boundaries (75:07) Throughout their eight years in Washington, Marian Robinson served as a crucial grounding force, offering quiet wisdom to both the family and White House residence staff. Following Marian's passing in 2024, Obama and Robinson reflected on the transition to becoming the family's senior generation, which led them to establish their podcast, *IMO*, to transmit foundational mentorship and ancestral advice to younger audiences. Now in her sixties, Obama describes stepping into personal agency by intentionally unlearning lifelong people-pleasing habits. Her decision to decline attending Donald Trump's presidential inauguration marked a conscious act of boundary-setting, where she chose to prioritize her well-being over ceremonial civic expectations, while dismissing media speculation about marital issues. She advises that learning to pause and say 'no' causes only fleeting disappointment to others while protecting long-term personal peace. The discussion illustrates that enduring public scrutiny, systemic racism, and personal grief requires cultivating internal validation rather than chasing external approval. However, Obama notes that institutional spaces frequently remain poorly designed to accommodate authentic family needs, leaving boundary-setting as a demanding, continuous negotiation throughout life.

Michelle Obama与兄长Craig Robinson在接受访谈时指出，来自家庭的核心价值观与同理心构成了抵御种族偏见和外界审判的内在屏障，促使他们打破精英社会的隐性门槛，在公共服务、家庭责任与个人界限之间确立真正的主体性。 家庭基石与直面“白人群飞” (2:01) Michelle与Craig回顾了在芝加哥南区South Euclid Avenue 7436号一处约700平方英尺小公寓中的成长岁月。患有进行性多发性硬化症（MS）的父亲Fraser Robinson III身为市政泵站操作工，从不缺勤且热心担任社区青少年的精神楷模；母亲Marian Robinson则在家全心抚育子女，不仅在Michelle就读二年级遭遇失职教师时据理力争帮其跳级，更定下“绝不在意未坐在自家餐桌旁之人的批评”的家规。家庭通过平等交流与无条件的爱，培养了兄妹二人以同理心化解恶意的能力。 童年时期，他们亲历了社区的人口结构巨变。随着黑人中产家庭迁入追求更优住房，白人邻居因对房产贬值的恐惧而迅速搬往南部郊区。Michelle回忆童年白人玩伴瞬间消失的经历，称当时清晰感知到“这些人在躲避我们”。但家庭给予的种族自豪感使他们未将偏见内化为自卑，反而认定种族主义是源于无知与恐惧的荒谬表现，这为他们日后进入主流精英环境建立了最初的心理防御机制。 识破精英游戏规则与重构人生追求 (23:45) 进入Princeton University本科及Harvard Law School深造期间，Michelle最初因标准化考试成绩未能体现潜能而承受“平权法案”受益者的心理压力。然而，在目睹财富阶层、校友子女（legacy status）及体育特招等隐性“平权”特权大行其道，且自己首学期凭借勤勉取得全A后，她意识到边缘群体能力不足的论调本质上是一种保护权力席位的心理“骗局”，从此彻底摆脱自我怀疑。 毕业后，Michelle成为Sidley Austin高薪企业律师，收入超过父母总和并开上全新的Saab 900。但在父亲突然离世以及大学密友Suzanne确诊淋巴瘤五个月后去世的双重打击下，她开始反思循规蹈矩的“打勾式”人生。受“非线性发展者”Barack Obama的启发，并在导师Valerie Jarrett的接纳下，她毅然舍弃高薪合伙人前景，转向投身社区服务与青年赋能的公共事业。 婚姻现实、育儿代价与白宫压力 (44:46) Michelle坦言，两个事业心极强的个体在建立家庭后必然面临摩擦。特别是生育打破了原有的独立平衡，若缺乏主动沟通和共同牺牲，一方因承担育儿重负极易滋生怨恨。她披露了自身因年龄增长经历的流产痛苦，以及接受试管婴儿（IVF）治疗时女性所承受的巨大身体与心理失衡，呼吁打破针对女性生殖健康的社会沉默，并强调持久的婚姻建立在绝不轻言放弃的契约与动态协商之上。 面对Barack竞选总统的决定，Michelle曾因安全隐患、家庭隐私以及白宫高昂的生活杂费开支（如自理伙食与非公务行程）感到极度恐慌。在进入白宫后，针对为单一男性总司令量身定制的总统体制，她极力为家庭争取正常运转空间，包括打破特勤局常规轮换机制，为在Sidwell Friends School就读的幼女争取固定安保人员。面对外界关于“愤怒黑人女性”的刻板丑化与人身攻击，她依靠母亲Marian在白宫建立的温馨支柱、家庭的情感庇护以及将公众愤怒归因于体制失衡的同理心，度过了严苛的八年公众审视。 母爱传承与确立个人界限 随着母亲Marian Robinson于2024年安详离世，Michelle与Craig深刻体会到长辈智慧传承的责任。兄妹二人创办播客节目《IMO》（In My Opinion），旨在延续家庭传承的导师角色与人生经验，将其视为比追求金钱名利更具意义的人生使命。 在迈入61岁之际，Michelle选择全面掌控自己的生活节奏。她透露，缺席Donald Trump的就职典礼是自己摆脱“打勾者”思维、不再为仪式性公共期待妥协自身内心的决定性界限设定；同时她明确驳斥了媒体借此捏造的婚姻危机传闻。Michelle主张女性应当破除取悦他人的习惯，学会通过暂停和深思来果断说“不”，因为坚守个人界限不仅不会破坏外部世界的运转，更是守护内心平和的关键途径。 本访谈通过Michelle Obama与Craig Robinson的生平叙事，阐明了在面对制度性不公、社会审判与公众生活侵蚀时，以深层家庭价值观和主动界限设定实现自我赋权的实践路径；但个体如何在非理想化的家庭资源支撑下复制此类抗逆力与职业转型，仍是有待社会层面进一步探讨的课题。

## Background 该视频由 YouTube 频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人史蒂文·巴特利特 Steven Bartlett）于 2025 年 5 月 1 日发布。视频中，美国前第一夫人米歇尔·奥巴马与她的哥哥克雷格·罗宾逊受邀做客，围绕成长经历、白人群飞现象、婚姻与育儿挑战、白宫岁月以及近期丧母之痛和缺席特朗普就职典礼等议题展开了真诚坦率的深度对话。 ## TL;DR 米歇尔与克雷格回顾了在芝加哥南区工薪家庭中由父母言传身教建立的体面、同理心与种族自豪感，以及看穿常春藤精英特权骗局的觉醒历程。米歇尔详述了自己告别机械式“打勾人生”、结识巴拉克·奥巴马并历经生育磨难、白宫严密安保与全球性恶意审视的心路演变。面对无休止的政治苛责，家庭内部深厚的爱与母亲玛丽安质朴的智慧成为了她最坚实的后盾。如今步入六旬并经历母亲离世后，米歇尔坦然选择打破讨好型人格、设立人生界限，并与哥哥通过创办播客将代际沉淀的智慧传递给年轻一代。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在温暖从容与幽默诙谐中透出坚韧强大的内在力量。兄妹俩默契十足的调侃与揭短消解了沉重话题的压迫感，而主持人充满共鸣的提问则引出多层次的真情流露。从回忆患病父亲坚韧品格的动容，到直面种族偏见与荒诞政治恶意的淡然通透，整场访谈如同一场围坐在家庭餐桌旁的深刻复盘，既有历经权力旋涡后的豁达释然，又充满了真诚抚慰人心的烟火温情。 ## Bulletin - [02:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=121s) 米歇尔·奥巴马与哥哥克雷格·罗宾逊做客播客，深入剖析童年亲历的“白人群飞”与种族低估，揭示名校背后的校友特权谎言，并首度详述放弃大律所合伙人坦途转向公共服务的内心觉醒。 - [43:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2628s) 米歇尔坦承与巴拉克·奥巴马在婚姻中曾共同接受心理咨询，打破“模范伴侣”的神话，公开探讨育儿责任失衡、试管婴儿（IVF）艰辛以及伴侣间隐秘的怨怼。 - [57:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3440s) 揭秘白宫不为人知的现实代价：竞选期间面临暗杀威胁与零收入压力，入驻后餐食及部分专机费用需全额自理，且需在庞大特勤安保机制下极力捍卫女儿们的正常童年。 - [01:20:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4831s) 米歇尔坦然回应缺席特朗普总统就职典礼的决定，称这标志着自己彻底打破了半生遵从的“打勾者”与讨好者模式，夺回关注自身感受的主动权。 ## Key takeaways - [02:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=121s) 芝加哥南区的局促童年与父母言传身教的“体面”与担当，构筑了兄妹俩敢于超脱世俗功利、勇于冒险的底层心理安全感。 - [08:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=515s) 母亲玛丽安倾听孩子心声并据理力争跳级成功的经历，让米歇尔很早学会为弱者发声并关注那些缺乏支持的同龄孩子。 - [15:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=909s) 亲历邻里恐慌性抛售房产的“白人群飞”让米歇尔看清种族主义的愚昧本质，家族内“普通人的卓越”赋予其坚定的种族自豪感。 - [16:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1010s) 父母立下严禁受“餐桌之外”评价影响的家训，以极高同理心化解外界敌意，成为抵御偏见与恶意的精神铠甲。 - [22:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1339s) 进入普林斯顿并取得全A战绩后，米歇尔打破冒名顶替综合征，看穿名校体系中财富特权与校友传承录取的“精英神话骗局”。 - [26:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1583s) 父亲与挚友的接连早夭砸碎了米歇尔名校毕业后的“打勾人生”，引发了促使其放弃高薪律所、投身公共服务的存在主义危机。 - [30:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1810s) 初遇反叛传统的“人生转向大师”巴拉克·奥巴马，米歇尔在对方的辩才与浪漫攻势下卸下防备，两人共同背负助学贷款在社区服务中并肩前行。 - [43:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2628s) 年轻夫妻各自拼搏的模式在生育后极易崩溃；缺乏预先分工与沟通的育儿重担，是诱发婚姻怨怼与裂痕的最大诱因。 - [49:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2963s) 社会对女性生理时钟与流产真相的沉默加剧了育儿压力，试管婴儿（IVF）过程中男女双方在身心痛苦上的极端不对等是对早期婚姻的严峻考验。 - [54:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3276s) 米歇尔直言所谓“神仙眷侣”纯属误读，婚姻艰难是机制使然，维系长久关系的核心在于互为命中注定之人的底色与绝不轻言放弃的坚韧。 - [57:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3440s) 支持奥巴马参选总统的最大恐惧是他“真的会赢”，入主白宫伴随着安全风险、隐性财务开销以及传统行政机制对家庭需求的极度漠视。 - [01:05:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3946s) 为对抗白宫官僚架构对家庭生活的冲击，米歇尔坚持协调固定特勤人员，确保幼女在高度戒备的政治中心依然能拥有健全正常的成长环境。 - [01:07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4020s) 作为首位黑人第一夫人承受来自性别、种族与外貌的极端恶毒审视，米歇尔依靠历史大局观与同理心将其归结为社会失序，从而避免自身陷入戾气。 - [01:15:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4506s) 母亲玛丽安以质朴常识成为白宫岁月里的精神定海神针；母亲平静离世后，米歇尔与克雷格通过播客延续家族智慧以回馈年轻世代。 - [01:20:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4831s) 拒绝出席特朗普就职典礼是米歇尔摆脱取悦他人模式的重要转折，她公开宣示已赢得优先关照自身感受、无需再为树立模范而自我牺牲的权利。 - [01:22:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4958s) 建立界限需要数十年刻意练习，通过推迟表态留出思考空间，并看轻拒绝给他人带来的短暂失望，是年轻人守护精力的关键指南。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=0s) 开场预告与主持人的初心之问 一段简短而富有张力的访谈切片拉开了序幕：前第一夫人米歇尔·奥巴马（Michelle Obama）与她的哥哥克雷格·罗宾逊（Craig Robinson）共同做客播客，分享那些极少向外界袒露的深层视角。米歇尔直言，那些身居高位却不清楚自己“为什么而出发”的人，往往会把社会带入幽暗的隧道。回顾自己的人生旅程，她坦言年轻时自己只是一个按部就班“打勾完成社会期望”的人，直到遇见贝拉克·奥巴马（Barack Obama）——他就像一个与“打勾人生”背道而驰的反叛者。起初米歇尔曾拒绝过他，甚至想把他介绍给身边的闺蜜，母亲当年还调侃评价道：“至少他个子挺高。”然而，当两人的生活逐渐交织并走向白宫时，现实带来的却是难以想象的沉重冲击：死亡威胁的阴影、在白宫抚养孩子的困惑与焦虑，以及如今决定不出席特朗普就职典礼背后的真实权衡。 随后，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）插播了一则诚恳的听众互动呼吁。他透露，常态化收听节目的听众中有53%尚未点击订阅，他以此恳请大家点击订阅支持，并郑重承诺团队将倾听反馈、持续邀请重量级嘉宾，倾力呈现更高质量的深度对话。 ### [02:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=121s) 芝加哥南区尤克里德街7436号的童年起点 主持人抛出核心议题，询问兄妹俩最早的生活环境如何塑造了他们成年后的底色。米歇尔脱口而出那个铭刻一生的地标——芝加哥南区尤克里德南街7436号（7436 South Euclid Avenue）。那是全家人所有故事与记忆的神经枢纽。那是一栋极小的平房（bungalow），楼下住着罗比姨婆（Aunt Robbie）和她的丈夫特里（Terry），楼上则是一间极为狭窄、使用面积大约只有700平方英尺（约65平方米）的紧凑小套间。在那个经济资源匮乏的年代，黑人家庭往往通过几代人挤在同一屋檐下的方式来彼此扶持、共渡难关。 为了让两个孩子能在相对安全优质的社区成长，并在微薄的薪资下攒下积蓄，米歇尔的父母选择合住在姨婆的楼上。父亲弗雷泽·罗宾逊（Fraser Robinson III）是一名勤恳的市政水厂工人，没有读过大学，这份蓝领工作带来的福利与稳定性是支撑家庭的支柱；母亲玛丽安（Marian Robinson）则全身心留在家中抚养孩子。空间局促到了极致：家里只有一间卫生间，根本没有单独的餐厅，全家人围坐在小小的厨房餐桌旁交流。整间屋子原本只规划了一间主卧，由父母居住，而客厅则被改造为米歇尔和克雷格共用的卧室。两人童年的大部分时光都在这间共享房间中度过，这处不起眼的狭窄公寓，成为了米歇尔日后所有价值观与“餐桌对话”的最初萌芽之地。 ### [04:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=278s) 父母言传身教的底色：体面、担当与无条件的爱 主持人好奇地追问，兄妹俩成年后在20多岁职业生涯的关键十字路口，都做出了令人瞩目的抉择——放弃更高的薪资或地位光环，转而投身于内心真正热爱的领域或服务他人的公共事业。究竟是怎样的家庭教育培育了这种超脱功利的定力？米歇尔回应道，父母从不说教，而是直接将这些价值观活了出来。如果用一个词来形容父亲，那就是“体面”（decent），他是那种无比正直、诚恳、勤劳、忠诚且值得信赖的男子汉。虽然给不了孩子们丰厚的物质财富，但他树立了怎样做一个好朋友、好伙伴的典范。父亲是大家庭的长兄，照顾着周围的每一个人，更为令人敬佩的是，他身患进行性多发性硬化症（Multiple Sclerosis, MS）。 从米歇尔记事起，父亲就必须拄着拐杖行走，随着年岁增长，疾病一点点吞噬他的身体力量，但他却是一家人以及周围社区中最坚不可摧的依靠。克雷格补充道，父亲一生“从未请过一天病假”，还主动给邻里间缺乏父亲陪伴的孩子们充当榜样。当克雷格参加篮球训练时，只要轮班允许，父亲总会开着车接送车上的小队员们去球场，在车上给孩子们讲故事、分享做人的道理；而母亲则将无私奉献的基因刻在了兄妹俩骨子里，在没有金钱可捐赠的情况下，母亲倾尽自己的时间与精力去关爱周围的人。这种深植在家庭最底层的“无条件的爱”，如同一块坚实的构造地壳构造板，给两个孩子提供了勇于探索世界、敢于承担风险的底气。 - **父亲弗雷泽的品质**：忠诚勤劳，即便遭受多发性硬化症（MS）的长期折磨且行动不便，也从未请假旷工一天，以身作则照料整个社区的孩子。 - **父母的教育方式**：拒绝居高临下的说教，通过一言一行示范何为信守承诺、何为真诚待人。 - **财富观与成就感**：教导孩子金钱与地位并不决定一个人的伟大，待人接物的态度和人品才是一切的衡量标准。 ### [08:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=515s) 被倾听的孩童之声：直面糟糕课堂与二年级跳级 父母赋予兄妹俩的另一项无价礼物，是对他们声音的极度尊重与相信。米歇尔回忆，父母极其喜欢倾听孩子们开口表达，鼓励他们大声思考、尝试独立解决问题。遇到挫折时可以向父母倾诉，但父母绝不会越俎代庖替他们包办一切，而是引导他们学会自立。这一特质在芝加哥南区的公立学校体系中起到了至关重要的保护作用——那里的师资水平极不均衡，有时会碰到充满热情的好老师，有时则会遇到敷衍了事的糟糕教师。 在升入小学二年级时，年幼的米歇尔敏锐地察觉到了异样：教室里一片混乱，老师毫无教学热情，既不留作业也不按大纲授课，甚至打心底里厌恶孩子。米歇尔每天中午跑回家，都会认真地向母亲抱怨学校里什么都没教，自己在二年级一无所获。母亲玛丽安没有把这当成小孩子的任性抱怨，在连续静静倾听了一个月后，母亲亲自前往学校暗中观察，坐实了老师不仅教学失职、更是缺乏责任心的问题。玛丽安随即径直冲进校长办公室大发雷霆、据理力争。这番强硬交涉迅速奏效：校方挑选了包括米歇尔在内的三名学生进行专业测试。在完成了为期数周的涂卡测评后，测试结果证明米歇尔完全有能力直接跳过二年级升入三年级。这一决定扭转了米歇尔的学业轨道，但更令米歇尔终生难忘的是，母亲在把女儿拉出泥潭后，依然在厨房里与父亲担忧地讨论着那些还留在那个混乱班级里的孩子们——那些父母无暇或无力为孩子发声维权的孩子，将在糟糕的教育中白白荒废一年宝贵的时光。母亲的这次行动，在米歇尔心中深深刻下了关于倾听、发声以及为他人争取公平的烙印。 ### [10:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=655s) 为被低估与缺乏支持的孩子发声 米歇尔回顾了母亲当年如何敏锐地察觉到她的需求并坚定地为她争取权益。普通父母可能会轻描淡写地对孩子说：“生活就是这样，忍忍就过去了”，但她的母亲深知米歇尔内心的渴望与潜能，义无反顾地出面替她换班、跳级。主持人斯蒂芬提问，这段童年经历是否教会了她在日后去回应那些同样在暗中求救的声音。米歇尔深有感触地坦言，时至今日，她脑海里依然常常浮现出那些被时代与系统遗留在身后的同龄孩子。 在她眼中，那些和她一起长大的孩子们其实同样聪明、极具天赋。米歇尔感慨道，自己与他们之间唯一的决定性差别，仅仅在于她拥有一个全心全意关怀、支持并为自己挺身而出的母亲。就因为缺乏这种支撑，许多同龄人的命运轨迹与她大相径庭。正是目睹了母亲为自己抗争的模样，米歇尔在日后的人生中自然而然地成为了那些被低估、缺乏支持的年轻人的代言人——而在这个世界上，绝大多数普通孩子往往都处在这样被忽视的境遇中。 --- ### [12:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=726s) 芝加哥童年中的种族认同与“普通人的卓越” 谈及种族在成长过程中扮演的角色，斯蒂芬展示了两张对比强烈的班级合影：一张是一年级的照片，里面有相当比例的白人面孔；而到了七八年级的照片中，白人学生几乎消失殆尽。这直观地揭示了白人家庭陆续迁出南岸社区（South Shore）的历史现实。斯蒂芬追问，在芝加哥长大的过程中，种族究竟对米歇尔的自我认知和世界观产生了怎样的影响。 米歇尔指出，在他们的原生家庭里，始终流淌着一种深厚而坚定的“种族自豪感”（Race Pride）。父母从很早就让他们明白，外面的世界充满偏见，会有很多白人由于肤色而轻视、误解甚至苛待黑人。然而，米歇尔家族两边的亲戚虽然大多是蓝领工人，却全都是极其聪慧、才华横溢、充满天赋的人才。他们生活在一个由教师、工程师等普通奋斗者构成的圈子里，米歇尔称之为一种“普通人的卓越”（regular excellence）。长辈们对所有表亲在学业上都有极高的期许，父亲更是整个大家庭的定心丸，总是鼓励每一个怀疑自己的孩子：“你能行，你很清楚自己在做什么。”在这种家风熏陶下，他们自幼便深信“没有人比你更优秀，也没有人比你更聪明”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 罗宾逊家庭的价值构建与外界偏见的碰撞 accDescr: 展示米歇尔家庭内部的自信培养机制与外部白人群飞偏见的互动关系 subgraph 家庭内核 ["家庭内部支持系统（餐桌教育）"] A["大家庭的普通卓越<br/>（工薪阶层中的工程师、教师）"] --> B["建立绝对的种族自豪感<br/>'没有人比你更优秀'"] B --> C["注入深层同理心<br/>'站在对方角度看问题'"] end subgraph 外部现实 ["外部社会现实"] D["邻里多元交融<br/>（白人、墨西哥裔、韩裔邻居）"] --> E["白人群飞（White Flight）<br/>（恐慌性抛售房产离开）"] E --> F["外部偏见与低估<br/>（将肤色等同于落后）"] end C --> G["面对歧视的坚韧底气<br/>（不抱怨、不内耗、不愤怒）"] F --> G ``` --- ### [15:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=909s) 亲历“白人群飞”：他们因为我们是黑人而仓皇逃离 早年当米歇尔一家搬到南岸社区罗比姑婆（Aunt Robbie）的房子时，周遭的环境原本极其多元融合。邻里之间关系融洽，互通有无： - 对街住着白人老太太梅森夫人（Miss Mason）； - 隔壁是墨西哥裔的门多萨一家（The Mendozas）； - 朋友索法妮特（Sofanit Conupant）是韩裔女孩，因为附近有一家大医院，其母亲在医院当护士； - 斯图尔特一家（The Stewards）是肤色较浅的黑人家庭； - 还有瑞秋·邓普西（Rachel Dempsey）和苏珊·亚克（Susan Yaker）等白人玩伴，米歇尔经常去瑞秋家一起吃午餐。 然而，这种平静而融洽的日常突然迎来了剧变。仿佛一夜之间“白人世界的灯熄灭了”，所有的白人邻居如同人间蒸发一般迅速搬离。这就是社会学上典型的“白人群飞”（White Flight）现象：当黑人通过自身努力改善了经济状况，开始在白人聚居的社区租房或买房时，白人群体不仅没有接纳他们，反而陷入集体恐慌，认为黑人的到来会摧毁社区品质并拉低房产价值，于是大规模恐慌性抛售房产，仓促向更远的南部郊区逃离。 米歇尔回忆道，当时年幼的他们并不会坐在餐桌前一本正经地研讨“白人群飞”的社会学理论，但孩子们内心却能真切地感受到一个荒谬的事实：“这些人在从我们身边逃跑。”在她看来，自己的父亲是一个无比善良、慷慨且极具智慧的人，如果那些白人的孩子能有机会认识并陪伴在这样一位长辈身旁，本该是莫大的幸运。但偏见蒙蔽了双眼，那些人甚至不愿去真正了解他们就落荒而逃。正是这种经历，让米歇尔很小就看穿了种族主义的本质——它不过是愚昧与无知最丑陋的具象化，而自己要做的就是保持前行，绝不在这种愚蠢面前停下脚步。 --- ### [16:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1010s) 拒绝怀恨与用同理心化解敌意：餐桌上的教育 斯蒂芬提出疑问：身处高位且长期承受聚光灯与各种审视，甚至经历过童年那种充满歧视的环境，为何在米歇尔和克雷格身上看不到丝毫怨恨、愤怒或防卫心理？克雷格与米歇尔对此相视一笑，坦言他们并非没有情绪，只是从不在外表露。而这种极度强大的心理素质，完全归功于父母从小灌输的处世哲学： 1. **近乎严苛的同理心（Empathy almost to a fault）**：母亲始终告诫他们要“换位思考”，并反复提醒：“你永远不知道别人的家里正在经历什么痛苦。”因此，当克雷格面对外界的敌意与刁难时，他的第一反应不是愤怒，而是带着怜悯的同理心去思考：“这人到底经历了什么，才变得如此刻薄与恶毒？” 2. **严禁在乎餐桌之外的声音**：父母立下了极其严厉的家规——绝不能因为外部任何不相干之人的言论而动摇自我认同或改变行为举止。只要两兄妹表现出因为别人的话而感到自卑或行为走样，父母就会雷霆大怒，严厉责问：“所以你觉得外面阿猫阿狗说的话，比坐在这张餐桌前的人说的话更重要？如果是这样，那你干脆搬去跟那个人住吧！” 米歇尔解释说，家里的训诫从来不是简单的斥责，而是发人深省的对话。父母绝不容许孩子产生“在精神上向外界压迫妥协”的思维倾向。他们深知外面的世界深植于种族偏见之中，根本不可信赖，因此绝不能将自我价值的评价权力拱手让给外界。尤其是对克雷格这样一个身材高大、日益聪慧的年轻黑人男孩来说，社会上的明枪暗箭随时都在试图将他拽下马来。如果黑人男孩任由自己被怒火吞噬，其处境将极其危险。父母在餐桌前用无条件的爱与自尊填满他们的内心，用深层的同理心化解了可能滋生的戾气，从而武装出一副能够安全在种族主义社会中稳健前行的精神铠甲。 --- ### [20:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1245s) 面对被低估的世界：挺直脊梁的底气与自信 斯蒂芬提到，“被低估”（Underestimated）是米歇尔在自传与言谈中反复出现的高频词。斯蒂芬分享了米歇尔几十年的导师与挚友瓦莱丽·贾勒特（Valerie Jarrett）写给节目组的信件。瓦莱丽在信中由衷赞叹：在她一生认识的人中，从来没有谁能像米歇尔一样，既对推动社会公益与创造深远影响力有着如此清晰的抱负，同时又怀有如此超乎寻常的笃定与自信。当年米歇尔进入哈佛法学院时，女性学生仅占约30%，黑人女性的比例更是微乎其微。在明知身处一个习惯性低估黑人女性的环境中，她却始终能高昂着头、挺直脊梁面对一切。 斯蒂芬询问这种强大的定力究竟源自何处。米歇尔深思后回答，这种自信源于她亲身验证了那些“低估”是多么彻底的错误与不攻自破。在白人群飞发生之后，她成长在一个以黑人为主的社区环境中。在那个世界里，大家天然地认定她非常聪明优秀：她在小学阶段就以优秀毕业生代表（Salutatorian）的身份毕业，随后考入了芝加哥顶尖的高中。正是这种自幼获得充分肯定与验证的成长经历，构成了她日后面对任何偏见与怀疑时毫不动摇的内心基石。 ### [22:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1339s) 普林斯顿大学的“真相之书”：打破冒名顶替综合征与精英神话 米歇尔回顾起自己的成长背景，深感自己非常幸运能在一个给予积极认同的黑人社区中长大。外界经常讨论黑人学生是否该去传统黑人大学（HBCU），以及过早被置于多元但充满偏见的环境中会导致怎样的心理内耗。米歇尔庆幸自己早年未受这种质疑侵蚀：童年时的导师、学校教师、体育与舞蹈教练全都是黑人；如果她犯错或受到批评，那纯粹是因为她在某件事上让人失望，绝非由于肤色。这份坚实的内在滋养，让她带着充足的自信走进了普林斯顿大学。 作为一名平时成绩极为拔尖、但在标准化考试中并不出彩的学生，米歇尔初入常春藤盟校时难免感到惶恐。按照冰冷的考分数据，她似乎注定无法在普林斯顿立足，只能算作靠“平权法案”（Affirmative Action）录取的生源，甚至一度怀疑自己是否真配得上这座象牙塔。然而，在校园里观察了一段时间后，米歇尔恍然大悟：象牙塔里充斥着人们讳莫如深的“另一种平权法案”——财富特权、校友传承录取（Legacy Admissions）以及体育生优待。无数占据权力通道的学生，其学术硬实力根本配不上这些席位，他们能进名校只是因为父母的运作成就。 当第一学期成绩揭晓、米歇尔拿下了全 A 时，她心中的怒火与释然同时爆发：“这帮人连我都比不过，凭什么搞我的心态？”她彻底看穿了精英阶层的心理战把戏——对方并非更聪明或更勤奋，他们只是恐惧竞争，竭力通过心理暗示让少数群体自我怀疑。米歇尔把这一顿悟形容为自己“从山顶携真理石板归来”向年轻人喊话：别被骗了，这一切都是骗局（"This is a scam. It's all a racket."）。从那一刻起，她彻底摆脱了不配得感，誓要在谈判桌上占据主导地位。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 精英名校神话的破灭过程 accDescr: 展示米歇尔从自我怀疑到发现特权真相并建立绝对自信的心态转变流转 subgraph Phase1["初入名校的迷茫"] A["标准化考分平平<br/>自我怀疑：不属于象牙塔？"] B["将白人精英假想为<br/>绝对的智力与勤奋高地"] end subgraph Phase2["看清制度与同侪真相"] C["洞察隐性特权：<br/>财富、Legacy、体育优待"] D["学期成绩全 A：<br/>发现对方根本不努力"] end subgraph Phase3["觉醒与破局"] E["识破心理战：<br/>'他们在害怕我们竞争'"] F["砸碎不配得感：<br/>执掌谈判桌，反向输出自信"] end A --> B B --> C C --> D D --> E E --> F ``` - **骗局的核心本质**：权贵阶层编造出“你不够格、他们更聪明、他们更配拥有这一切”的谎言，以此阻吓底层人群窥探权力帷幕背后的平庸。 - **觉醒的心态转变**：不再去听信傲慢者的审判，转而要求对方拿出证据来证明自己不配留在桌前。 --- ### [26:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1583s) “打勾人生”的幻灭与28岁的存在主义危机 走出普林斯顿与哈佛法学院后，27、28岁的米歇尔顺利进入全美顶尖的盛智律师事务所（Sidley Austin）担任企业律师。她拿到了令人咂舌的高薪，第一年年薪便超过了父母一辈子收入的总和，开上了拉风的萨博（Saab）轿车。然而，表面光鲜的背后，是她机械式“打勾人生”（Box Checking）的延续：成绩优异（勾）、考入重点高中并担任班级财务官（勾）、保送常春藤（勾）、考上哈佛法学院（勾）。她承认当时去读法学院根本毫无职业抱负，仅仅是因为自己不擅长数理化、却很会辩论，便顺理成章地顺着社会的评价体系盲目向前爬。 这套按部就班的成功公式，在短短一年内被两场突如其来的死亡彻底砸碎：父亲因病骤然离世；大学最亲密的挚友苏珊（Suzanne）从确诊淋巴瘤到去世仅隔了五个月（前一年12月确诊，次年5月撒手人寰）。生平第一次，米歇尔面对同辈人非正常的早夭。坐在位于47层的豪华独立办公室里，身旁有专属秘书、车库里停着名车，她却陷入了剧烈的存在主义危机。 她回想起挚友苏珊：苏珊也是普林斯顿毕业生，却从未盲目“打勾”，而是遵从内心环游世界、体验生活，并未急于进入商学院。米歇尔曾经觉得苏珊不务正业，如今却无比庆幸苏珊从未浪费生命在冰冷的写字楼里。反观自己，除了遵循现成的人生剧本、挤入黑人中产精英圈（Black Bourgeoisie）以期当上律所合伙人之外，从未真正探索过活着的目的。死亡敲响了警钟，逼迫她重新审视内心真正渴望的意义。 --- ### [30:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1810s) 遇到“转向大师”贝拉克·奥巴马 正当米歇尔陷入对职业与人生的深度怀疑时，贝拉克·奥巴马走进了她的生活。与米歇尔严谨本分的“打勾”性格完全相反，贝拉克是个彻底的“人生转向大师”（Ultimate Swerver）。他从不按常理出牌：大学毕业后跑去做全职社区组织者，旅居世界多地，深邃通透地拆解生活本质，浑身散发着不同于世俗中产精英的清醒与野性。 当米歇尔还在为身上的学生贷款发愁、不敢贸然放弃优渥的律所薪水时，已经确定恋爱关系的贝拉克成了那个给予她冒险勇气的人。他在米歇尔耳边不断打破思想禁锢：“为什么要在尝试世间万物之前，就草草把一辈子锁死在合伙人位子上？外面还有广阔的世界，债务问题我们一起承担、总能解决。”正是在贝拉克的鼓励下，米歇尔迈出了职业转型的第一步，摆脱了金钱与社会阶层的单向绑架，开始了属于自己的“人生大转向”。 - **人生转向（Swerving）的哲学**：打破为了薪水和安全感而做合伙人的既定轨道，拒绝用一生的自由为物质妥协。 - **价值观互补**：米歇尔的自律务实与贝拉克的宏阔打破常规，共同促成了米歇尔从公司法务向公共服务领域的决绝跃迁。 --- ### [31:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1909s) 萨博车里的初次登门与家人的犀利吐槽 当史蒂文询问哥哥克雷格（Craig Robinson）第一次得知妹妹交了“奥巴马先生”这个男朋友时的情景，现场气氛顿时变得诙谐轻松。克雷格回忆道，那天米歇尔打电话给家里，说要带个男人回家认门。随后，克雷格和父母三个人并排坐在家门口的前廊上张望。 只见米歇尔开着她那辆标志性的萨博900轿车停在路边，贝拉克从车上走了下来。克雷格坦白，自己当时内心的第一反应是：“这哥们儿撑不过两个月。”原因全在米歇尔身上——全家人都清楚米歇尔对男人的挑剔程度，男方只要做出任何一点让她看不顺眼的事，就会被米歇尔当场判定为“无法容忍的硬伤（deal breaker）”，然后迅速扫地出门。 看着高高瘦瘦的贝拉克，母亲当时给出的唯一评价也是云淡风轻的一句：“嗯，起码个子挺高的。”兄妹俩在播客中互相揭短逗趣：米歇尔抗议称自己虽然谈过不少恋爱，但带回家的男朋友屈指可数，才没有像家里传言的那样对男人苛刻挑剔；克雷格则坚持反击，正因为她很少带人上门，全家才凭经验觉得这位贝拉克·奥巴马多半也只是个匆匆过客。 ### [33:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2018s) 初遇奥巴马：从极力拒绝到完美约会 在律所工作的第一年，米歇尔被指派担任暑期实习生的带教导师，而她的辅导对象正是巴拉克·奥巴马（Barack Obama）。两人的初次相遇并不算完美——奥巴马第一天就迟到了。在极度看重守时纪律的罗宾逊家族观念里，迟到往往意味着“轻浮不靠谱”（trifling）。然而那天外面正下着雨，奥巴马浑身湿漉漉地走进来，连把雨伞都没带。米歇尔本有些恼火，但当奥巴马站起身时，她发现他身材高大，本人远比照片上英俊得多，这让她心里暗自惊叹。带他在办公室安顿好后，米歇尔请他吃了第一顿午餐，两人一聊就是几个小时。奥巴马幽默机智、不自视甚高，他们立刻聊得十分投缘，很快成了极好的朋友。 整个夏天，米歇尔甚至一直积极地把奥巴马介绍给自己的闺蜜们，夸赞他是个非常优质的男生。在米歇尔当时的认知里，他们绝对不可能恋爱——两人是律所里仅有的少数几位拥有哈佛法学院背景的非裔律师，如果走到一起，显得太落入俗套、太理所当然（tacky and expected），而她向来不喜欢循规蹈矩。因此，当几次共同外出后奥巴马提出“我们为什么不约会”时，米歇尔毫不犹豫地当场拒绝：“绝不可能，我们是朋友，而且在律所看起来影响不好。”奥巴马随即反问：“谁在乎外人怎么看？”接下来的两周里，奥巴马施展出他的辩才攻势，最终说服米歇尔答应去赴一次约。 为了这次约会，奥巴马使出了浑身解数，精心设计了一场涵盖艺术、浪漫漫步与前沿文化的“全天候约会”： * **艺术与漫步**：米歇尔开着车去接他，两人先来到芝加哥艺术博物馆（Art Institute of Chicago），奥巴马展现了他温文儒雅的艺术品位；随后他们在博物馆共进午餐，接着手牵着手沿着密歇根大道一路向北漫步闲聊。 * **高空晚餐与电影**：傍晚，他们登上湖角大厦（Lake Point Tower）顶层的观景餐厅，俯瞰芝加哥壮丽的城市全景享用晚餐；最后，以观看斯派克·李（Spike Lee）执导的热门电影《为所应为》（*Do the Right Thing*）为一天画上句点。 * **关系升温**：这场细腻而浪漫的约会彻底瓦解了米歇尔的心理防线，让她意识到自己之前拒绝得太草率。到了那年夏末，两人的恋情已经稳定，米歇尔正式把他引荐给了自己的家人。 --- ### [37:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2238s) 职业觉醒与瓦莱丽·贾勒特的面试信件 尽管米歇尔按部就班地完成了社会期待的所有“打勾任务”（ticking the boxes），进入顶级律所赚取优渥薪水，但她逐渐意识到这套既定轨道无法带给自己内心的真正满足。在迷茫中，她开始花时间写日记自省，反复追问自己一个核心问题：“到底什么才能带给我快乐？日常日程表上的哪件事能让我大清早兴奋地跳下床？”梳理后她发现，答案永远指向“青年导师与辅导”（mentoring）——在求学和执业期间，她总是自发地去帮助年轻的孩子们找到成长路径。名校精英教育从不教授如何帮助他人，也没有教人投身非营利组织或 NGO 的专业，但米歇尔决定遵从内心，放弃原本高薪的合伙人晋升路线，转而寻求投身公共服务的机会。 随后，主持人史蒂文在现场念出了一封由米歇尔当年的面试官、后来的白宫高级顾问瓦莱丽·贾勒特（Valerie Jarrett）写来的亲笔信，还原了那场改变命运的面试现场： > “遇见米歇尔·奥巴马的那一天永远改变了我的人生。我永远忘不了她走进我办公室面试的那一刻——一身利落的全黑职业装，头发优雅地向后挽起。她散发出的强大自信深深吸引了我。握手时，她的目光直视我的眼睛，那种从容不迫与笃定，让人很难相信她当时只有27岁。 > > 米歇尔向我讲述了她在芝加哥南区的成长经历，以及父母给予她和哥哥克雷格的无尽关爱。当我问她，为什么放弃在律所成为高薪合伙人的坦途而选择公共服务时，她告诉我，她在一年之内接连失去了父亲和最好的挚友。他们的离世是一个沉痛的警醒，让她深刻意识到生命的有限，以及活出人生意义的紧迫。她深知自己的能力可以为他人带来改变，她渴望回馈养育自己的这座城市。 > > 我被她展现出的清晰目标感、坚定决心以及毫无保留的坦诚脆弱所深深震撼，当场便决定录取她。” --- ### [40:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2441s) 青年奥巴马的选择：巨额学贷与公共利益之路 在米歇尔三十岁出头经历人生转型的同一时期，奥巴马的人生轨迹也正处于关键转折点。作为哈佛大学法学院创校以来首位当选《哈佛法律评论》（*Harvard Law Review*）主席的非裔学生，奥巴马成为了全美法学界的焦点，并顺理成章地拿到了撰写自传《父辈的梦想》（*Dreams from My Father*）的图书合约与预付款。米歇尔当时打趣他：“谁会在你这个年纪就急着写自传？”但写作不仅是奥巴马讲述自我认同的机会，预付款在经济上也为他们筹备婚礼和未来生活提供了关键支持。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 奥巴马放弃精英路线选择公共利益 accDescr: 对比哈佛法学院顶尖毕业生的传统精英晋升路径与奥巴马选择的低薪公共利益道路 subgraph ElitePath["传统精英晋升轨道"] A["哈佛法律评论主席"] --> B["联邦上诉法院法官助理"] B --> C["最高法院大法官助理"] C --> D["大型律所高薪合伙人 / 政策要职"] end subgraph BarackPath["奥巴马的实际选择"] A --> E["放弃司法助理与大型律所"] E --> F["加入小型公共利益律所"] F --> G["多份兼职奔波 / 社区倡导"] G --> H["投身广泛社区服务与写作"] end ``` 以《哈佛法律评论》主席的履历，整个法律界的大门都在向奥巴马敞开，最标准的精英晋升路径是先担任联邦上诉法院法官助理，随后进入联邦最高法院担任大法官助理，再进入顶级大律所赚取高额年薪。然而当米歇尔问他是否打算去法庭担任助理时，奥巴马却反问：“我为什么要去？”他彻底绕开了所有大型高薪律所，加入了一家专门从事公共利益诉讼的小型律所。他直言赚钱从来不是自己的目标，他思考的是如何用自己的技能去影响和帮助最多的人。 这导致两人在三十岁出头时面临着严峻的经济压力： * **财务困境**：虽然两人都在芝加哥买了小公寓共筑爱巢，但由于双方全额背负着常春藤盟校的法学教育贷款，他们每月需要偿还的助学贷款金额甚至超过了房贷按揭。 * **多份兼职**：为了维系生活与理想，奥巴马一边撰写书稿，一边辗转打着无数份零工与兼职。 * **齐头并进**：尽管两人的收入水平与同龄名校精英渐行渐远，但他们深知彼此在追求同样的社区使命感。彼时政治抱负甚至还未被提上日程，他们只是在并行的轨道上摸索前行，共同面对债务，脚踏实地探索如何将满腔才智奉献给社会基层。 ### [43:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2628s) 三十岁出头的拼搏与爱情：各自斩妖除魔的局限 主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向米歇尔和克雷格请教关于爱情、婚姻与事业平衡的建议。史蒂文坦言自己刚满32岁，正处于一段稳定的感情中，但同时也背负着强烈的进取心，拼命打拼以期为未来的家庭打下物质基础。然而，看到米歇尔在书中坦承曾与巴拉克·奥巴马（Barack Obama）共同接受婚姻咨询，他不禁困惑：在事业处于全速冲刺（“go go go”）的黄金年龄，年轻情侣究竟该如何维系亲密关系？ 米歇尔指出，像史蒂文这种进取心极强的人，往往会陷入一种思维定势：以为只要“我走好我的路、处理好我的事，你走好你的路”，双方各自奋斗、齐头并进，感情就能顺理成章地好下去。在没有重大外部羁绊的阶段，这种模式确实行得通。两个人就像两个完全独立的个体，在大千世界中各自披挂盔甲、独立“斩妖除魔”（slaying your own dragons）。由于彼此互不拖累，即便周中各自出差奔波、各忙各的，周末重逢时依然充满新鲜感与激情——“我好想你、爱死你了，快跟我讲讲你的经历”，这种聚少离多的空间反而让感情看起来既性感又迷人。 然而米歇尔强调，这种看似完美的独立状态，会在迎来彼此人生第一个、也是最重要的共同项目——“生儿育女”时猝然面临考验。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 独立奋斗与养育子女对婚姻模式的冲击 accDescr: 展示两人从独立拼搏期向生育合作期转变所带来的摩擦与挑战 subgraph S1["独立拼搏期（摩擦较少）"] A["各自奔赴事业 ('斩妖除魔')"] B["互不干涉步伐与生活节奏"] C["周末重逢保持激情与距离感"] end subgraph S2["生育合作期（摩擦爆发）"] D["共同养育生命（无法独立拆分）"] E["一方承担照护巨压 / 事业受阻"] F["缺乏预先沟通导致委屈与怨怼"] end A --> D B --> E C --> F ``` ### [46:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2814s) 育儿冲击与隐秘的委屈：失去平衡的牺牲 当孩子降生，原本各自独立的轨道瞬间被打破。米歇尔深有感触地表示，孩子是夫妻之间唯一一个绝对无法“独立作业”的项目。抚养一个身心健康的孩子，跟你个人在外面击败了多少怪物毫无关系，它完全取决于伴侣双方如何协同、沟通、分工并作出取舍。正是在这个转折点上，婚姻迎来了最严峻的危机。 如果在宝宝半夜啼哭时，只有其中一方在咬牙承受照料的重担；如果一位母亲因为哺乳或照顾婴儿不得不搁置个人抱负，而丈夫却依然按照原有的步调出差、冲刺事业、按时去健身房保持身材，巨大的失衡感便会悄然而生。米歇尔直言，如果夫妻俩事先没有坐下来认真商量这种生活重构，没有明确彼此的牺牲与责任，“怨怼、疲惫、暗中斤斤计较（measuring and counting）”就会不可避免地充斥整个家庭。 - **缺乏预案的代价**：米歇尔承认她与巴拉克当年也从未提前做过此类沟通，因为在各自打拼的甜蜜期，谁也预料不到孩子的到来会像“突然被人抽掉双腿”一样彻底颠覆生活格局。 - **提前沟通的核心**：伴侣之间必须在生育前厘清：我们要共同斩杀哪条巨龙？谁在什么阶段做出妥协？出差与工作的边界在哪里？ ### [49:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2963s) 生育困境、IVF与被忽视的女性生理时钟 话题随后切入米歇尔曾经历的试管婴儿（IVF）与不孕挣扎。米歇尔指出，社会在女性健康、生育与生理真相上长期保持着令人窒息的沉默。老一辈对此避而不谈，导致许多受过高等教育、习惯于按部就班“打钩完成人生任务”的现代女性产生误判：以为先拼事业、等经济基础打牢、找到对的人后再从容备孕完全来得及，却对冷酷的“生理时钟”（biological clock）一无所知。 米歇尔援引了她们播客搭档、写下《Grown Woman Talk》的莎朗·马龙医生（Dr. Sharon Malone）的医学科普：女性出生时所拥有的卵子数量是有限且不可再生的，每个月都在流失。迈入30岁之后，女性的生育能力往往会经历断崖式下跌（“falling off of a cliff”）。米歇尔感叹，当她和巴拉克在事业步入正轨、自认万事俱备开始备孕时，才在诊所被告知卵子库存所剩无几、必须借助试管婴儿，而且当年的保险甚至不报销这笔高昂的费用。此外，流产在医学上其实极为普遍，但因为鲜有人公开讨论，当遭遇流产时，女性往往会陷入自我怀疑，将医学上的概率悲剧归咎于自身，独自背负巨大的失败感与愧疚。 米歇尔生动且尖锐地揭示了IVF过程中两性面临的极端不平等： - **肉体与心理的双重折磨**：在IVF过程中，女性不仅是胚胎的培养皿，更要每周忍受打针，在忙碌繁重的工作与医院之间频繁奔波，监测排卵，承受剧烈的激素波动与产后抑郁风险。 - **伴侣付出的巨大反差**：相比之下，男性的参与往往只停留在“提供精液样本（show up and come in a cup）”，随后便能若无其事地照常健身、维持体态与事业节奏。 - **婚姻初期的第一道裂痕**：这种在生育痛苦上的生理与心理不对等，极易演变成婚姻中的第一个重大承压点与矛盾爆发源。 ### [54:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3276s) 婚姻的摩擦与“神仙眷侣”背后的真相 米歇尔深入剖析了婚姻中不可避免的阵痛，她常对其他夫妻直言：“觉得困难是理所当然的，这并非你们哪个人有问题，而是婚姻本身的机制使然。”最具有讽刺意味的是，即便一切按最理想的剧本推进——拥有了幸福的婚姻、迎来了可爱的孩子——事情反而会变得更具挑战。孩子是拥有独立意志的“小人儿”，他们虽然可爱至极，却极度耗费心力且充满索求，彻底颠覆了两人原本的世界。每一项决策都必须将孩子考量在内，哪怕生活在外人眼里完全达标，夫妻关系中依然充斥着磨合与摩擦。 米歇尔指出，现代人往往放弃得太早。当外界看着她与贝拉克（Barack Obama），随手打上“#情侣标杆”（#couplegoals）的标签时，她总想提醒大众：维持关系对他们来说同样艰辛。在漫长的相处中，她确实有过怨恨、愤怒、或是感到被冷落的时刻，甚至有时会气得脱口而出伤人的话，但事后回头看，往往连当初为何发火都已记不清。当被问及是否曾真正考虑过离开时，米歇尔明确表示从未有过动摇。因为在她心底，贝拉克就是年轻人所说的“命中注定之人”（my person）；双方在性格深处都烙印着一股绝不轻言放弃的坚韧，这也构成了他们伙伴关系中最牢不可破的基石。 --- ### [57:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3440s) 竞选总统：最恐惧的是“他真的会赢” 当贝拉克·奥巴马决定竞选公职并最终问鼎白宫时，两人的生活迎来了翻天覆地的巨变。史蒂文问米歇尔，当时是否相信贝拉克具备成为总统的能力。米歇尔坦言，最棘手的问题恰恰在于她从心底深处知道他能成为一位卓越的非凡领袖，因此她的第一反应是近乎抗拒的惊呼：“天呐，千万别这么做！”她的恐慌并非源于怀疑他的才能，而是源于她清醒地预见到一旦胜选，整个家庭将为此背负多么沉重的代价。 这种担忧完全基于现实的考量： * **家庭与育儿动荡**：女儿们尚且年幼，举家迁往华盛顿后，该如何在白宫的高墙内抚育孩子成长？ * **安全风险与死亡威胁**：作为美国历史上第一位极具胜选可能的黑人总统候选人，死亡威胁与仇恨言论几乎是不可避免的现实阴影。 * **高昂且鲜为人知的白宫开销**：大众普遍误以为入驻白宫便意味着一切全包，但事实恰恰相反。除了住房和基础物业人员外，总统家庭必须自行支付每一顿餐食的费用；若家人未与总统同行、而是搭乘第一夫人的专机“亮星”（Bright Star），连孩子们的航程费用都必须自掏腰包。此外，长达两年的脱产竞选期间全无固定收入，家庭储备面临巨大考验。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Michelle Obamas Campaign Concerns accDescr: 竞选总统给家庭带来的隐性挑战与现实负担 subgraph Decision["决定参选"] A["深知贝拉克具备胜选能力<br/>与治国才干"] end subgraph Costs["家庭面临的隐性代价"] B["人身安全与种族威胁<br/>（成为首位非裔总统候选人）"] C["幼女的成长环境被颠覆<br/>（在白宫与安保包围下成长）"] D["严峻的财务压力<br/>（竞选期零收入、白宫自费餐饮与专机）"] end Decision --> B Decision --> C Decision --> D ``` --- ### [59:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3586s) 中场赞助与特别企划 在此间歇，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特分享了两则特别内容： * **赤足鞋品牌 Vivobarefoot**：史蒂文谈到此前做客节目的丹尼尔·利伯曼博士（Dr. Daniel Lieberman）指出，传统厚底跑鞋的过度缓冲反而削弱了双脚的原生力量，甚至可能诱发足底筋膜炎及膝背酸痛。利物浦大学的研究证实，穿着赤足鞋6个月可使足部力量提升高达60%，重塑双脚的自然灵动。 * **百位顶尖CEO导师通讯（100 CEOs Newsletter）**：针对年轻人频繁求教导师建议的需求，节目团队发起了一项创新企划——收集观众最集中的商业与人生疑问，实时发送给包括千亿市值企业在内的100位全球顶尖CEO，并将精选答复汇总回信给订阅者，免费提供高维度的决策智慧。 --- ### [01:01:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3703s) 开出的竞选前提：戒烟与储备金 谈到最初答应贝拉克参选所提的条件，米歇尔坦诚自己当时的提法并不算深谋远虑。当时两人刚转型至更有使命感的工作不久，才勉强填补了此前放弃企业高薪带来的收入缺口，家庭财务根基并不深厚。因此，她开出了两个自以为能“卡住”他的硬性门槛：第一，必须彻底戒掉断断续续的烟瘾；第二，必须存够一笔足够充裕的备用金，确保竞选即便落败，一家人也不至于陷入财务赤贫。 然而，这道原本看似稳妥的防线很快被贝拉克爆发式的政治声望瓦解。2004年贝拉克受邀在民主党全国代表大会（DNC）发表主题演讲后一炮而红，此前出版的自传《我父亲的梦想》（*Dreams from My Father*）重回畅销书榜首，随后出版的《无畏的希望》（*The Audacity of Hope*）更带来了丰厚的版税收入。当贝拉克看着暴涨的账目向她示意资金已经到位时，米歇尔只能无奈苦笑：“该死。”她感叹，当时两人完全是在摸黑前行，她根本没有足够的经验去预知这段旅程的真实全貌，更不知道应该提前为自己和家庭争取哪些权益。 --- ### [01:03:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3798s) 未曾预料的代价：为白宫里的家庭生活而抗争 回首往事，米歇尔明确指出了自己当年真正该提的诉求：她本该强烈要求贝拉克的竞选团队与顾问班底真正将“他是一个拥有家庭的男人”视为核心考量，而不是单向迁就政治体系的要求。美国总统体制承袭了漫长的历史惯例，整座行政机器完全围绕着男性“三军统帅”（Commander-in-Chief）一人运转，其机制在设计之初就从未真正考虑过第一夫人与未成年子女的情感与现实需求。顾问团习惯于将牺牲家庭视作理所当然，迫使米歇尔必须在日后孤军奋战，为捍卫家庭的正常运转步步争取。 相比于出身政治世家、对白宫生态早已熟稔的劳拉·布什（Laura Bush），米歇尔与贝拉克既缺乏先验知识，又面临着截然不同的时代挑战。她是自希拉里·克林顿以来又一位具有职业背景的第一夫人，更罕见的是携年幼子女入住白宫。白宫西翼（West Wing）的官僚架构从未学会将总统一家作为不可分割的“整体单元”去予以全方位庇护。这种割裂甚至直接体现在特勤局（Secret Service）的日常安保上——当两个女儿分别步入二年级和五年级时，迎接她们的却是防弹装甲车队，以及一群配枪特工护送她们走进新学校的日常。米歇尔不得不持续介入并施加影响，只为在严密的权力机器中为年幼的孩子拼凑出一丝童年应有的常态。 ### [01:05:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3946s) 白宫育儿的挑战与特勤安保的日常协调 在入主白宫初期，米歇尔·奥巴马面临着外界难以想象的育儿困境。特勤局（Secret Service）的特工们习惯了应对高风险安保场景，但对于如何护送小女孩去西德威尔友谊学校（Sidwell Friends School）读二年级这种校园生活毫无经验。特勤人员通常处于持续的流动和轮换之中，但米歇尔深知，对于幼小的女儿们来说，身边充斥着不断更换的面孔、满是陌生男人来来往往，会对成长产生极大的负面影响。为了给孩子营造相对健康的心理环境，米歇尔做出了极大的争取，最终确立了两位固定的特勤安保组长，让他们一直陪伴玛利亚（Malia）和萨莎（Sasha），直到女儿们长大步入青春期。 米歇尔指出，这就是现实生活与权力中枢之间的反差——当西翼（West Wing）的幕僚和官员们忙于拯救全球金融危机、斡旋叙利亚局势等国际大事时，她在东翼最关切的核心任务，是确保两个女儿在白宫这个高压鱼缸里不被逼疯，能够作为一个完整、正常的人走出白宫。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 白宫育儿与安保机制协调 accDescr: 展示白宫内米歇尔在面对西翼宏大议程时，如何为女儿争取稳定特勤人员并保持育儿正常的流程。 subgraph Challenges ["日常挑战与现实反差"] A["西翼应对危机<br/>(金融危机 / 叙利亚冲突)"] B["二年级校园生活<br/>(西德威尔学校操场)"] C["特勤人员常规轮转<br/>(孩子身边全是不熟悉的面孔)"] end subgraph Solution ["育儿保护策略"] D["坚持要求固定特勤组长<br/>(两位组长长期陪伴至青春期)"] E["建立熟悉感与心理安全边界"] end subgraph Outcome ["最终核心诉求"] F["确保孩子健全成长<br/>('not crazy and whole')"] end B --> C C --> D D --> E E --> F A -.->|反差与平衡| F ``` ### [01:07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4020s) 成为首位黑人第一夫人：遭受的审视与克雷格的愤怒 史蒂文念出了米歇尔曾写下的一段极具冲击力的话，剖析了作为美国历史上首位黑人第一夫人所背负的畸形审视。米歇尔在文中写道，自己一边被捧为“世界上最有权势的女性”，另一边却被贬损为“愤怒的黑人女性”（angry black woman）；她甚至想质问那些诋毁者，这个标签里让他们最介意的究竟是“愤怒”、“黑人”还是“女性”。她曾在镜头前对那些在全国电视上肆意辱骂奥巴马、转头却又渴望合影并把照片摆在自家壁炉架上的人微笑；网络最阴暗的角落甚至在质疑她到底是男是女，甚至曾有在任的美国国会议员公然公开嘲弄她的臀部。她承认自己曾感到受伤与震怒，但大部分时候只能选择一笑了之。 当被问及眼看着亲妹妹承受这种全球性的非议是何感受时，克雷格·罗宾逊（Craig Robinson）坦言，自己曾是大联盟的高校篮球教练，过去总是安慰家人不要理会报纸上的流言蜚语，但当妹妹一家进入白宫后，他必须反过来每天“执教”并说服自己。面对那种全球性、无休止且纯粹出于恶意的攻击，克雷格承认自己常常怒火中烧。他只能不断告诫自己：妹妹和妹夫是在尽最大努力为最多的人服务，换作其他任何人坐在那个位置他都不会放心。支撑全家人熬过这八年的，是父母从小灌输的家训——“不在同一张餐桌上的人，他们的评价根本不重要”。同时，克雷格和亲友们甘愿成为米歇尔身后的“后援村落”（village），尽力维持家庭的日常感，甚至在白宫里努力过出普通人那样有烟火气的感恩节。 - 米歇尔面对的公开攻击涵盖性别、种族、外貌乃至生理性别的荒诞质疑（如国会议员公开嘲讽其臀部）。 - 克雷格用过去做高校篮球教练的心理疏导技巧来开导自己与家人，化解看到至亲受辱时的暴怒。 - 罗宾逊家族的处世信条：“永远不要在乎不在自家餐桌上的人说了什么。” ### [01:10:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4240s) 超越仇恨的框架：同理心、大局观与社会创伤 面对长达八年乃至卸任后依然如影随形、不公且残酷的公众审视，米歇尔阐述了她赖以自处的底层价值框架——“同理心”（empathy）。她表示，奥巴马深刻的历史观与大局认知经常提醒并稳固住她的心态：人们宣泄的愤怒、无知和憎恨，本质上往往与奥巴马夫妇个人无关，而是源于这个世界本身的失序与不公。这个社会对太多人而言是不公平的，当人们缺乏机会、陷入恐慌与绝望时，便会通过“他者化”（otherize）弱势群体来寻求虚妄的安全感，试图找一个比自己更受压迫的人来踩踏。 米歇尔指出，这与她童年时期面对种族主义低期望的心理机制如出一辙——对方的恶意源于历史灌输的恐惧和对未知世界的局限，而不是自己的问题。奥巴马经常对她说：“这依然是一个两次选出巴拉克·奥巴马的国家。”尽管有一小部分极端分子无论如何也无法接受一个黑人发号施令，但整个国家的心胸远比这些人宽广。在漫天的仇恨背后，他们收获的是全球各地无数普通人的善意、拥戴与想念。同理心并不是纵容恶行，而是一种自我保护机制；无论面对缺乏方向而陷入偏执的亿万富翁、掌权政客，还是底层困顿的民众，唯有跳出个人的怨恨，看到人性的光亮，才能避免让自己变得尖酸刻薄，始终怀抱希望继续为公众服务。 ### [01:15:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4506s) 母亲玛丽安在白宫的定海神针角色与面对离世 谈到在白宫岁月中扮演不可或缺角色的母亲玛丽安·罗宾逊（Marian Robinson），米歇尔深情地回忆，母亲是她在惊涛骇浪中最温柔的停泊港湾（soft place to land），是一个永远能看清自己本质的人。在巍峨肃穆的白宫内部，玛丽安以她纯朴的常识和质朴的老派智慧成为了整座宅邸的精神核心。不仅孙女们依赖她，连白宫的管家、花艺师、保洁员和厨师们，都会在空闲时敲开她的房门，坐在她的房间里寻求慰藉与开导，所有人都在某种程度上被她“母亲般地照料着”。米歇尔笑称，比起自己，克雷格的长相其实更神似母亲。 谈及母亲于2024年的离世，克雷格与米歇尔难掩悲伤，但内心依然有着巨大的平静与释怀。克雷格回忆道，支撑他们面对这份剧痛的，依然是家庭最核心的底色——无条件的爱（unconditional love）。虽然母亲的离去令人痛苦、悲伤与遗憾，但最重要的是，他们彼此之间毫无保留地表达过爱意；母亲在离开前无比清楚孩子们有多么爱她，孙辈们有多么敬重她，在这个世界上，她深知自己在这个家庭中无可撼动的位置。 ### [01:17:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4649s) 母亲离世时的释然与哀伤的处理 克雷格·罗宾逊（Craig Robinson）回忆起母亲玛丽安·希尔兹·罗宾逊（Marian Shields Robinson）临终前的那一刻。当家人知道她即将离去时，克雷格告诉母亲：“米歇尔（Meech）和巴拉克正在赶来的路上。”母亲只是淡淡地回应了一句：“噢，那挺好（Oh, that's nice）。”在生命的最后关头，没有任何未尽之言，也没有遗憾，只有彻底的平静。克雷格坦言，虽然自己深深思念母亲，但知道母亲完全明白子女对她的爱，这种确信带来了极大的安慰。米歇尔补充道，母亲在白宫陪伴他们的那段岁月同样给予了她巨大的踏实感，因为有母亲在，她完全不需要为家里的孩子们操心。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 世代智慧的传承与角色转变 accDescr: 展示从母亲玛丽安到米歇尔与克雷格一辈，再到通过播客回馈社会的传承流程。 subgraph Elder ["长辈智慧的基石"] A["母亲玛丽安·罗宾逊<br/>（家族最后的长者智慧）"] end subgraph Generation ["代际责任的接力"] B["米歇尔 & 克雷格<br/>（年过六旬，成为家族新一代长者）"] end subgraph Offering ["传承与社会回馈"] C["播客《IMO: In My Opinion》<br/>（提供指导、搭建交流平台）"] D["新一代年轻人与受众<br/>（汲取智慧、建立界限、少走弯路）"] end A --> B B --> C C --> D ``` 当主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及两人是否已经消化并处理好这份丧亲之痛时，米歇尔笑着调侃道，自己的处理进度肯定比克雷格更多，因为克雷格向来不习惯停下来消化情绪，而是一味埋头工作。对米歇尔而言，处理哀伤的过程也是重新为自己做出选择的过程。她感到自己终于获得了完全按自主意愿行事的许可。她谈到，现年 61 岁的自己终于能够彻底拥抱属于自己的智慧：“我认为女性往往要到 60 岁左右，才会坦然觉得自己确实懂那么一两件事。”而这份智慧正是源自母亲。母亲是他们家族中最后一代的长者智慧守护者，如今母亲离世，接力棒交到了米歇尔和克雷格这一代人手中。他们创办播客《IMO: In My Opinion》，正是为了回馈社会，延续他们自幼接受的导师精神，为更多人提供一张可以坐下来交流和汲取建议的“餐桌”。 ### [01:20:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4831s) 缺席就职典礼与打破“讨好者”模式 史蒂芬提到米歇尔决定不出席唐纳德·特朗普（Donald Trump）的总统就职典礼，并询问这一举动是否标志着她夺回人生控制权的关键节点。米歇尔毫无犹豫地给出了肯定的回答。她解释了背后的思考逻辑：自己大半辈子都是一个标准的“打勾者（box-checker）”，凡事力求符合社会期待、做正确的事、时刻树立模范形象、始终践行“当他们往低处走，我们往高处走（when they go low, we go high）”。但在那一刻，她问自己：“此时此刻，我真正想做的是什么？”她意识到自己已经赢得了考虑自身感受的权利，不需要再为了做给别人看而打乱自己的生活、离开宁静的日常和孩子们。 - **拒绝无休止的自我牺牲**：米歇尔直言，如果是过去的自己，无论如何都会硬着头皮前往以维持体面与榜样形象；但现在她告诉自己：“我已经做得够多了。如果到现在还不够，那就永远也不会够。” - **直面婚变谣言的幽默反击**：针对缺席活动后外界疯传她与巴拉克·奥巴马（Barack Obama）婚姻破裂的八卦，米歇尔幽默地表示：“了解我的人都知道，如果我和我丈夫真出了问题，全天下都会知道。”她绝不是忍气吞声的殉道者，真有矛盾早就会公之于众去寻求解决，甚至调侃说那她现在就会拉着巴拉克一起录播客公开数落他了。 ### [01:22:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4958s) 播客《IMO》与给年轻一代的界限建立指南 史蒂芬对米歇尔和克雷格联手打造的播客《IMO: In My Opinion》给予了极高评价。他分享了自己前一天作为嘉宾参与录制的愉快经历，称赞该节目不仅是一个展现真实人性的窗口，更是向全世界传递人生经验的温暖平台。对于许多在成长过程中缺乏完整家庭根基或人生导师的年轻人（特别是在黑人社区中），米歇尔与克雷格在节目中分享的跨行业经历——无论是大学篮球教练、华尔街经纪人，还是第一夫人与母亲的视角——都在扮演着极其珍贵的“远程导师”角色。 节目进入传统收尾环节：上一位匿名嘉宾留下了一个问题——“在你们的生活中，是否有某个人让你们害怕设立界限，但心里深知必须去设立？”对此，米歇尔和克雷格给出了关于界限（boundaries）的深刻见解： - **界限的树立来自长期的刻意练习**：米歇尔指出，对于天生习惯讨好他人（people-pleasers）的人来说，学会拒绝往往需要数十年漫长的练习。她经常以此指导自己的两个女儿，教她们如何礼貌而坚定地设立界限，避免把自己逼入绝境。 - **推迟表态的策略**：设立界限最实用的一步是“不要立刻答应”。当他人提出要求时，学会说：“让我想一想。”给自己留出空间去消化请求，确认它是否真正契合自身利益与精力，而不是因为害怕当面说“不”就仓促应承。 - **看轻拒绝带来的后果**：随着年龄增长，拒绝会变得越来越容易。因为人们终究会发现，你的“不”很少会真正摧毁别人的人生。对方或许会有一时的失望，但世界依然照常运转，他们很快就会去寻找下一个人，“我们其实都没有那么重要，别人完全能够承受偶尔的一点失望”。 对谈最后，史蒂芬表达了由衷的敬意与感谢。他动情地提到，远在英格兰西南部的一个小村庄里，自己正是看着奥巴马一家的优雅、谦逊与自律成长起来的，他们作为卓越的榜样，深刻塑造了他的人生轨迹。米歇尔与克雷格对此次深刻交流表示非常享受与感激，访谈在真诚温暖的道别与主持人的订阅呼吁中圆满结束。 ## Notable quotes > [22:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1339s) This is a scam. It's all a racket. — Michelle Obama > [16:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1010s) 所以你觉得外面阿猫阿狗说的话，比坐在这张餐桌前的人说的话更重要？如果是这样，那你干脆搬去跟那个人住吧！ — Michelle Obama > [12:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=726s) 没有人比你更优秀，也没有人比你更聪明。 — Michelle Obama > [33:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2018s) 绝不可能，我们是朋友，而且在律所看起来影响不好。 — Michelle Obama > [33:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=2018s) 谁在乎外人怎么看？ — Barack Obama > [30:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=1810s) 为什么要在尝试世间万物之前，就草草把一辈子锁死在合伙人位子上？外面还有广阔的世界，债务问题我们一起承担、总能解决。 — Barack Obama > [54:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=3276s) 觉得困难是理所当然的，这并非你们哪个人有问题，而是婚姻本身的机制使然。 — Michelle Obama > [01:10:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4240s) 这依然是一个两次选出巴拉克·奥巴马的国家。 — Barack Obama > [01:20:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4831s) 我已经做得够多了。如果到现在还不够，那就永远也不会够。 — Michelle Obama > [01:20:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4831s) 了解我的人都知道，如果我和我丈夫真出了问题，全天下都会知道。 — Michelle Obama > [01:22:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ&t=4958s) 我们其实都没有那么重要，别人完全能够承受偶尔的一点失望。 — Michelle Obama ## Mentioned Michelle Obama, Craig Robinson, Steven Bartlett, Barack Obama, Marian Robinson, Fraser Robinson III, Valerie Jarrett, Dr. Sharon Malone, Donald Trump, Malia Obama, Sasha Obama, Laura Bush, Hillary Clinton, Spike Lee, Dr. Daniel Lieberman, The Diary Of A CEO, IMO: In My Opinion, Sidley Austin, Princeton University, Harvard Law School, Harvard Law Review, Sidwell Friends School, United States Secret Service, Art Institute of Chicago, Lake Point Tower, Vivobarefoot, Airalo, Dreams from My Father, The Audacity of Hope, Overcoming: A Workbook, Grown Woman Talk, Do the Right Thing ## Video description Michelle Obama served as the First Lady of the United States, entering the White House alongside Barack Obama. In this candid conversation, she joins Steven with her brother Craig Robinson, a former college basketball coach turned executive, to open up about everything from Trump’s inauguration to marriage challenges, grief, and rediscovering her purpose. Together, they discuss: * How their parents instilled empathy, discipline, and resilience growing up amid racial tension. * Michelle’s journey through elite schools and corporate law, driven by a need to tick society’s boxes. * The evolution of Michelle and Barack’s relationship, from colleagues to lifelong partners. * Fertility struggles, parenting tips, and what it really takes to sustain a long-term marriage. * Navigating life in the White House, grief, personal boundaries, and rediscovering her true calling. 00:00 Intro 02:01 Michelle and Craig's Childhood 04:38 Values Learned from Their Parents 08:35 Michelle Skipping Second Grade 12:06 The Role of Race in Their Childhood 15:09 What "White Flight" Means 16:50 Coping with Racism 20:45 Overcoming Being Underestimated 26:23 Michelle's Search for Identity 30:10 Meeting Barack 31:49 Introducing Barack to the Family 33:38 Why Michelle Initially Rejected Barack 37:18 Michelle's Career Change: Pursuing Joy 40:41 Relationship with Barack 44:46 Couples Counseling with Barack 49:23 Pregnancy Struggles 56:16 Hardest Moments in Their Marriage 57:20 Barack Obama Runs for Public Office 01:03:18 What I Should Have Said to Barack 01:07:00 Being the First Black First Lady and Facing Scrutiny 01:15:06 Remembering Your Mother 01:16:42 The Death of Your Mother 01:18:25 Processing the Grief 01:20:31 Not Attending Trump’s Inauguration Listen to Michelle & Craig's new podcast IMO: ⁠https://bit.ly/3YnxIUg Follow Michelle: Instagram - https://bit.ly/3Ymxs7W Twitter - https://bit.ly/4cYXiVC Follow Craig: Instagram - https://bit.ly/4lThkVB Twitter - https://bit.ly/4lTGJ1f YouTube: You can purchase Michelle’s book, ‘Overcoming: A Workbook’, here: https://amzn.to/4jTqcsi (UK) / https://amzn.to/3SbbelM (US) Think like a CEO - join the 100 CEOs newsletter: https://bit.ly/100-ceos-newsletter The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://rebrand.ly/r0ogao4 The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb Get email updates: https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt Follow Steven: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Airalo - https://try.airalo.com/TheDiaryOfACEO with code DOAC3 Vivobarefoot - https://vivobarefoot.com/DOAC with code DIARY20 for 20% off [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=D67eWcX2XYQ)

[22:19] Michelle Obama: This is a scam. It's all a racket. [16:50] Michelle Obama: 所以你觉得外面阿猫阿狗说的话，比坐在这张餐桌前的人说的话更重要？如果是这样，那你干脆搬去跟那个人住吧！ [12:06] Michelle Obama: 没有人比你更优秀，也没有人比你更聪明。 [33:38] Michelle Obama: 绝不可能，我们是朋友，而且在律所看起来影响不好。 [33:38] Barack Obama: 谁在乎外人怎么看？ [30:10] Barack Obama: 为什么要在尝试世间万物之前，就草草把一辈子锁死在合伙人位子上？外面还有广阔的世界，债务问题我们一起承担、总能解决。 [54:36] Michelle Obama: 觉得困难是理所当然的，这并非你们哪个人有问题，而是婚姻本身的机制使然。 [70:40] Barack Obama: 这依然是一个两次选出巴拉克·奥巴马的国家。 [80:31] Michelle Obama: 我已经做得够多了。如果到现在还不够，那就永远也不会够。 [80:31] Michelle Obama: 了解我的人都知道，如果我和我丈夫真出了问题，全天下都会知道。 [82:38] Michelle Obama: 我们其实都没有那么重要，别人完全能够承受偶尔的一点失望。

[23:45] Michelle Obama: I came out of Princeton just feeling like, 'Let me at 'em.'... I'm coming down from the mountaintop with the tablet of truth and going, 'Do not let these people scam you. This is all a racket.' [30:10] Michelle Obama: He showed up in my life as the opposite of a box checker, but somebody I describe in my book as an ultimate swerver. He did nothing by the book, but he was brilliant and interesting. [44:46] Michelle Obama: When you bring life into the world, that's the project where you can't do that independently... raising those kids and making them as whole as you'd want them to be has so little to do with the dragon you're slaying now than it does with how you partner and engage. [67:00] Michelle Obama: I've wanted to ask my detractors which part of that phrase matters to them the most. Is it angry or black or woman?... I've been hurt. I've been furious. But mostly I've tried to laugh this stuff off. [80:31] Michelle Obama: If I were having problems with my husband, everybody would know about it... I'm not a martyr.

[0:00] People in power who haven't understood [0:02] their why can lead us down some dark [0:05] tunnels. We are in a really tough time [0:08] right now. The one and only Michelle [0:10] Obama, the former first lady, and her [0:12] brother Craig Robinson are sharing their [0:15] rare perspectives into a world very few [0:18] ever get to see. I grew up in a [0:20] predominantly black neighborhood and we [0:22] were taught foundational values so that [0:24] we could function in our society. But [0:28] growing up, I was just checking boxes. [0:30] And then I met Barack Obama. He showed [0:33] up in my life as the opposite of a box [0:36] checker. You rejected him at first, [0:38] right? Yeah. I was even trying to [0:40] introduce him to some of my friends. He [0:42] said, "Well, why don't we go out?" And [0:43] what did you think of him? Honestly, I [0:46] was like, "He may last 2 months." I [0:48] remember my mom saying, "Well, at least [0:50] he's tall." [0:52] But the next thing, you know, we were on [0:54] our way to building our lives together. [0:57] And my initial reaction was, don't do [1:00] this. There would be death threats. How [1:02] do you raise kids in the White House? [1:04] How would we afford it? Did you ask for [1:06] any promises if he were to win? I didn't [1:09] know what that journey was going to be [1:11] and what I would need to negotiate for [1:13] myself. And if I had known what I know [1:16] now, I should have said, Michelle, I was [1:20] watching the coverage of your decision [1:21] to not go to Trump's inauguration. What [1:23] was the thinking behind that? [1:26] The truth was is that [1:29] this has always blown my mind a little [1:31] bit. 53% of you that listen to the show [1:33] regularly haven't yet subscribed to the [1:36] show. So, could I ask you for a favor [1:37] before we start? If you like the show [1:39] and you like what we do here and you [1:40] want to support us, the free simple way [1:42] that you can do just that is by hitting [1:43] the subscribe button. And my commitment [1:45] to you is if you do that, then I'll do [1:47] everything in my power, me and my team, [1:48] to make sure that this show is better [1:50] for you every single week. We'll listen [1:52] to your feedback. We'll find the guest [1:53] that you want me to speak to and we'll [1:55] continue to do what we do. Thank you so [2:00] much. Michelle Craig, what do I need to [2:04] know about your earliest context to [2:06] understand the adults? And I use that [2:09] word intentionally because I know that's [2:11] what your your parents were intent on [2:12] raising. The adults that are in front of [2:15] me today. [2:19] Wow. that starts at 7436 South Ullet, [2:23] you know, the the the hub of it all. [2:25] That was the the home that we grew up in [2:28] on the south side of Chicago. And it was [2:31] a teeny tiny house. Uh we lived uh above [2:35] our aunt Robbie. It was a single family [2:38] home, a bungalow on the south side of [2:41] Chicago. And our aunt Robbie was married [2:44] to uh her husband Terry and they owned [2:48] the home. Uh, and they had a little [2:51] bitty almost one-bedroom, two-bedroom [2:55] apartment over the home. So, it was a [2:57] two family home. We were surrounded by [3:01] extended family. That community of [3:03] people that you probably because people [3:06] didn't have a lot of resources, people [3:08] lived with each other. You know, you [3:10] shared spaces, you lived next to one [3:13] another. and we lived with our great [3:15] aunt because it helped our parents save [3:17] some money and get us in a better [3:19] neighborhood because my father was a [3:21] city worker. He was a working-class guy, [3:23] didn't have a college education, and [3:26] working for the city was a really stable [3:28] job because it gave you benefits and [3:30] some stability. And my mom wanted to [3:33] stay home uh and and raise kids. So, in [3:36] order to save that kind of money, we [3:39] banned together and lived with our aunt [3:41] Robbie. and all of the adventures and [3:44] the lessons learned when I think about [3:47] my foundational values that house really [3:51] and all the experiences and [3:53] conversations. The beginning of my [3:55] kitchen table happened on 74th in Uclid [4:00] and I I talk about it because you think [4:02] it was a palace but this was a little [4:04] home. We shared a bedroom most of our [4:07] lives because there would just wasn't [4:09] room for us to each have our own room. [4:12] And we shared the space, one bathroom. [4:15] There was no dining room. There was just [4:17] a kitchen. And the way it was set up, [4:20] how it was supposed to be used, it was a [4:22] one-bedroom apartment. [4:24] And the living room was the room that we [4:28] shared as a bedroom. And the one bedroom [4:30] it had was where my mom and dad lived. [4:33] And the whole thing could have been 700 [4:36] square f feet. Yeah. You talked about [4:39] foundational values. Mhm. What were [4:41] those foundational values that you [4:42] learned in that location? [4:45] And how did your parents teach you those [4:47] foundational values? And I asked that [4:49] with great curiosity because as I read [4:51] through both of your [4:52] books, there are moments in your career [4:54] where as adults in your late 20s where [4:57] those values show up so clearly over and [5:00] over and over again. And I'm I was as I [5:01] was reading I was thinking gosh what did [5:03] their parents do to orientate them in [5:06] such a clear way where both at key [5:09] moments in both of your careers you make [5:11] decisions not to get a pay rise or not [5:13] to go for the thing that is higher [5:15] status and to do something else either [5:17] something that's aligned with your [5:18] passions and hobbies or something that's [5:20] in service of others. [5:23] So what were those values and how did [5:26] your parents instill those in you? I I [5:28] think our parents modeled it. I mean, if [5:30] I were to think of [5:32] one one word that would describe my [5:35] father, he was just a decent man. [5:38] Decent, honest, hardworking, and loyal, [5:42] trustworthy. I mean, these were the kind [5:43] of things that we talked about. We we [5:46] didn't have material stuff. He couldn't [5:50] provide that, but he provided a set of [5:52] lessons about what it meant to be a good [5:55] friend. Um he was the elder in his [5:58] family uh the oldest of what five and my [6:02] mom was the middle child. And uh he he [6:07] took care of everyone. Um even though he [6:10] had multiple sclerosis and walked with [6:14] assistance. He had a cane when we were [6:16] younger. I never knew my father to walk [6:18] without the assistance of a cane. And MS [6:21] was a progressive disease. So over the [6:24] course of his life, he just got weaker [6:25] and weaker and weaker, but he was the [6:28] strongest person in our orbit with [6:31] everyone. Never took a sick day. Never [6:33] took a sick day. He was the father that [6:36] fathered all the other kids in the [6:38] neighborhood, you know. So when Craig [6:40] was playing basketball, he was the [6:42] person that was at most of the practices [6:45] if he could be if his shift allowed. he [6:48] was the dad in the neighborhood where a [6:50] lot of kids didn't have those kind of [6:53] role models. Um, and even though we [6:55] didn't have a [6:56] lot, you know, there was there was never [6:59] a time when my father wasn't going to [7:02] help somebody. So, you know, I guess [7:05] those values where you you you take care [7:07] of people, you know, money doesn't [7:10] really matter. That's not the thing that [7:12] makes you great. It's how you show up in [7:15] the world. It's your word. It's um you [7:18] know how you treat other people. To [7:20] Misha's point, he was the guy who was [7:23] giving kids rides to practice and to [7:26] games because their parents couldn't go [7:28] and he would be sharing stories, sharing [7:31] his values. It was just embedded in his [7:35] being to pass on knowledge that he had. [7:40] And and with regard to my mom, you know, [7:43] my mom, I think, is where I at least [7:46] where I get my philanthropic gene from, [7:50] not with money cuz we didn't have any, [7:52] but with our time and with our resource, [7:54] whatever resources we had. What was [7:57] behind all of this was unconditional [7:59] love. [8:01] It's a tool in the toolbox that you [8:03] sometimes don't even realize is there if [8:05] you're privileged enough to, right? [8:07] because it's that tectonic plate that [8:09] sits underneath you that you never can [8:11] really see, but gives you a certain [8:13] sense of I guess risk and and uh go get [8:16] it. Well, and and knowing that, you [8:18] know, it's not just unconditional love, [8:20] but our parents believed us. They valued [8:25] our voices. I mean, they really liked to [8:28] hear us talk. They they encouraged us to [8:31] think out loud and to problem solve and [8:33] to come to us with their problems but [8:37] not be the ones that were going to solve [8:39] it. And I and this came in very handy [8:42] when you're a kid in public school [8:44] because you know in public school south [8:46] side of Chicago teaching was kind of [8:48] uneven. You know one year you'd get a [8:51] teacher that cared and and invested in [8:53] the kids. Another grade you'd have a [8:56] teacher that didn't care. And I remember [8:58] distinctly I started second grade and I [9:00] went to a classroom that was completely [9:03] chaotic. The teacher clearly didn't want [9:06] to be there. And I knew this in second [9:09] grade. And there was no order. We didn't [9:12] have homework. We weren't doing regular [9:14] lessons. And I knew that something was [9:17] wrong. And I would come home at lunch [9:19] and I'd complain about we nothing [9:21] happened today at school, you know, and [9:23] I'm I don't know what second grade is [9:26] supposed to be, but I don't feel like [9:28] I'm getting what I need to get out of [9:30] second grade. It took a month of coming [9:32] home and complaining. And my mom was [9:34] quietly listening. But she wasn't just [9:37] listening, she was plotting. And it was [9:41] a month in, she went up to the school, [9:43] watched herself, and saw that this [9:45] teacher not only wasn't teaching, but it [9:48] appeared that she didn't even like kids. [9:50] So, she went to the principal's office [9:52] and read them the riot act. I don't know [9:55] what she said or what she did, but three [9:57] of us were pulled out of the class for [10:00] testing. And I just remember I just [10:02] didn't have to go into that class. And I [10:04] spent a couple of weeks taking some [10:06] specialized test. We were just doing [10:08] bubble tests. didn't know what it was. [10:11] Um, got the results and the results [10:15] proved that I could skip second grade [10:18] and it was a lifesaver for me. But I'll [10:21] never forget my mom finally did. I would [10:24] hear her complaining of my dad, this [10:25] teacher, you know, these teachers who [10:27] don't care about these kids. She had [10:29] gotten us out, but she was worried about [10:31] the kids who were stuck in that second [10:33] grade class, who didn't have parents who [10:36] were their advocates, who, you know, [10:37] were going to spend probably a wasted [10:39] year in second grade missing whatever [10:42] they were going to miss. But that was [10:44] one of those instances where I knew that [10:46] if a cry for help from me was heard by [10:51] my mother and acted upon, she could have [10:53] been one of those mothers who said, [10:55] "Well, just, you know, life is life. [10:56] Just get it together." But she knew [10:58] there was something different in what I [11:00] wanted and what I needed and she, you [11:03] know, she made it happen. Does that [11:05] teach you to respond to others who cry [11:07] for that help? I probably does. I mean, [11:10] I still think about the kids who were [11:12] left behind. I mean, there's just [11:16] something that that really touches me [11:19] about kids who are as bright as we are [11:22] because we grew up with them. You know, [11:24] my mother saw them. Uh, and the only [11:27] difference between me and them was that [11:30] they had a mother that cared. And a lot [11:33] of their lives looked totally different [11:35] from ours because of that. And I find [11:38] myself being that advocate for those [11:40] kids, those the the kids who were [11:44] underestimated and under supported. And [11:47] that turns out to be kids, most kids all [11:50] over the world. So I do find that that [11:53] moment for me was a defining in in a [11:57] pretty fundamental way about how I how I [12:01] fight for kids and the way that I saw my [12:03] mom fight for me [12:07] race. One of the um startling things [12:09] with these two photos Mhm. mainly [12:12] because I think it's this way round but [12:14] um [12:16] this is I believe what second grade or [12:17] something that was first grade. first [12:19] grade and then this is seventh eighth [12:21] seventh or eighth grade. Yeah. Yeah. [12:24] There's a lot less white people in the [12:26] second photo which means that which [12:28] assumes that white people started [12:30] leaving your school. Oh, absolutely. [12:32] They leaving the neighbor leaving the [12:34] whole of Southshore. My my question [12:36] really is about what role did race play [12:38] in your childhood? Because I think about [12:40] my own childhood and it's quite a [12:42] prominent persuasive force in who I [12:44] became and what I thought about the [12:46] world and really what I thought about [12:47] myself. So race is an issue as young [12:50] people in Chicago. What role did it [12:53] play? [12:55] I think there was a lot of race pride in [12:57] our family. Um there was this [13:01] feeling this understanding that um uh [13:05] because of people's prejudice, there [13:07] would be a lot of white people that [13:09] would underestimate you, that would [13:11] mistreat you, that would assume things [13:14] about you. our family, our entire family [13:18] on both [13:19] sides, really smart, talented, gifted [13:22] people to have a family that big and to [13:25] have and but all workingclass people, [13:27] right? So, we lived among sort of real [13:31] regular excellence, you know? I mean, [13:34] people who were teachers and who were [13:36] who were engineers, all of our cousins [13:39] were people who were expected do to do [13:41] well in school. So, we were taught like [13:45] no one's better, smarter than you. You [13:49] know, you're capable. My father was that [13:52] voice for a lot of our cousins if they [13:54] didn't have that kind of energy in their [13:56] lives. It was always like, you got this [13:58] and you know what you're doing. So, in [14:00] our home, there was race pride. But when [14:04] you, you know, live in a, when we moved [14:07] into Southshore into Robbie's house, our [14:10] aunt Robbiey's house, most of my [14:13] neighborhood friends were white kids. [14:15] Um, Rachel Dempsey and Susan Yaker and [14:19] uh, Sof Sophenant Conupant who was a [14:21] Korean girl because we lived by a [14:23] hospital and her mother was a nurse. So [14:26] it was a very mixed the the stewards who [14:28] were you know they they were a black [14:31] family but could pass for white. I mean [14:33] it was just sort of some of everyone in [14:36] the neighborhood. Miss Mason who was the [14:39] little white lady across the street and [14:41] our neighbors were the Mendozas, the [14:43] Mexicans. Um you know it was sort of [14:46] everywhere all around us and everyone [14:50] got along. Neighbors knew one another. [14:52] We played with each other. I went to [14:54] Rachel's house and for lunch and you [14:57] know, but then one year it was like the [15:01] lights went off for the white people and [15:03] they were gone without a trace. They [15:05] call this white flight. This was white [15:07] flight and action. Yeah. Yeah. For [15:11] anyone that doesn't have context on [15:12] white flight, what is white? It's the [15:14] sociological occurrence of what happens [15:16] in communities when black people sort of [15:20] start making their way up [15:22] socioeconomically and can buy homes or [15:25] rent homes in neighborhoods that are [15:26] predominantly white. So instead of uh [15:30] white people accepting it, they sell [15:32] their homes on mass. There's a sort of [15:35] undercurrent of we better get out [15:36] because these black families coming in [15:39] are going to ruin the neighborhood and [15:41] bring down property values. So you [15:43] better sell now and go go further south [15:46] into the southern suburbs. And so when [15:49] you're young, you you kind of know [15:51] something is going on. You know, it's [15:53] not like we were sitting around the [15:55] kitchen table talking about white [15:56] flight. But what you do know and you [15:59] take in as a child is like these people [16:02] are running from [16:04] us. You know, it's like my dad who is [16:10] this, you know, amazingly kind and [16:14] generous person who would would have [16:17] been good for a lot of these people's [16:18] kids, these white folks kids to get to [16:21] know and be around us who turned out to [16:24] be who we were and we were always going [16:26] to be that. You're running for us. Well, [16:30] our feeling was like, well, how stupid [16:32] is racism and how stupid are you for not [16:36] really looking and getting to know? So, [16:39] so race to me and in my household was [16:43] just a dumb manifestation of ignorant [16:46] people, but we were taught to keep [16:50] moving through it. How do you stop it [16:51] getting to you? One of the remarkable [16:53] things I noticed even when we spent some [16:55] time together yesterday [16:57] was there is no apparent bitterness. And [17:01] there's one would say that there's [17:03] reason to be because when you're so [17:06] powerful and so prominent and so well [17:07] known, you're exposed to everything. And [17:10] going through that experience in those [17:11] early years and then going through the [17:12] everything that happened thereafter, [17:14] there doesn't appear to be any [17:15] bitterness. There doesn't appear to be [17:17] any chip on the shoulder, any anger. [17:19] Yeah. Sometimes there is. Yeah, we just [17:22] don't show it. We just don't show it. [17:24] But I I will say at least from my [17:28] standpoint, mom and dad, but mom [17:31] especially, she she taught us [17:37] empathy almost to a fault, right? So, [17:41] she always said, you remember how she [17:43] always said, "Put yourself in the other [17:45] person's shoes." and she would always [17:48] say, "You never know what's going on in [17:50] someone else's home." And so I always [17:56] approached negativity toward me with [17:59] empathy. That was the first thing. It's [18:02] like, "Oh, what's what's what happened [18:03] to you? What happened to you that made [18:05] you so mean and evil?" The other thing [18:09] that our parents were really big on [18:14] was do not care what anybody else who's [18:18] not sitting at this table thinks. Mhm. [18:22] If we ever said somebody said something [18:24] and it affected the way we behaved, [18:27] that's when you saw anger from my [18:29] parents. That's when you get into [18:31] trouble. You got in trouble with my [18:32] parents when that I mean it was [18:34] crackback right away. What would they [18:36] say back? They they would be like, "So, [18:40] you're gonna tell you're telling me that [18:43] what whoever this is over here said is [18:46] more important to you than what you hear [18:47] around this table, then you can go live [18:49] with so- and so." [18:52] I mean, you know, if our admonitions in [18:55] our house were always conversations, it [18:58] was discussions. And you you knew when [19:01] your parents were disappointed. You knew [19:02] when you had struck a a nerve. And it [19:05] was never about, you know, just making a [19:08] mistake or, you know, it it was about [19:11] thinking in a way that felt oppressive, [19:15] internally oppressive. They didn't like [19:17] that kind of thinking in us. They wanted [19:19] us to feel our own power. They never [19:22] wanted us to surrender the way we [19:24] thought about ourselves to the rest of [19:26] the world because they probably [19:28] understood that they couldn't trust the [19:30] way the rest of the world would treat [19:32] us, right? So you can't you they they [19:35] knew that we couldn't be so locked into [19:38] what the world would say because the [19:40] world was grounded in racism and that [19:44] you know a little black boy more so even [19:47] my brother they were probably more [19:49] concerned with him because he was going [19:52] to encounter it every day as he got [19:55] taller and bigger and smarter because [19:58] all of the men in our lives had [20:01] experienced someone trying to knock them [20:03] down a peg or two. I think our parents [20:06] understood that that was waiting for [20:08] both of us and it was waiting for my [20:10] brother in particular. So, they wanted [20:13] to arm him with enough self-esteem to [20:16] fill him up at the table where he was [20:18] safe to give him the tools to just embed [20:22] in him a level of empathy so that he [20:24] wouldn't become angry because anger for [20:26] a young black boy was dangerous, you [20:29] know. Um, so there was a real clever way [20:33] of um allowing us to have these [20:36] conversations but filling us up with [20:39] empathy so that we could function in in [20:43] a racist society. Being underestimated, [20:46] it's a word that I saw throughout your [20:48] book and it's a word you you mentioned a [20:49] second ago. [20:51] You knew you were going into an [20:53] underestimated world, if I can call it [20:55] that, a world that was going to [20:56] underestimate you because of your race [20:57] and and things like that. But it's so [21:00] clear to me that you had your shoulders [21:02] back regardless. And I I spoke to [21:05] Valerie. Do you know Valerie? Of course [21:07] you know Valerie. You worked with [21:08] Valerie for many decades. And um she was [21:11] a sort of an early mental figure in your [21:12] life, Michelle. Yes, she was. And she [21:14] actually wrote me a letter about you. [21:16] She describes that she's never met [21:18] someone in her life that was so clear on [21:22] what they wanted to achieve in the world [21:24] in terms of the social good and the [21:25] impact they wanted to have but was so [21:27] unbelievably confident and high [21:28] conviction. And when I think about when [21:30] you went to Harvard and studied law [21:32] there was what 30% of the people [21:34] attending were were women and then a [21:36] tinier percentage were were black women. [21:40] And you were aware again of being [21:41] underestimated but again shoulders back [21:43] it seemed. Where does that come from in [21:45] you? [21:48] um [21:51] you living through the incorrectness of [21:55] that of that underestimation, right? [21:59] First of all, I grew up, you know, [22:01] fortunately in a predominantly black [22:03] neighborhood after white flight happened [22:05] where [22:06] um everyone assumed I was smart, right? [22:10] I grew up as a the saludiatoran in my [22:13] grammar school. I went to a top high [22:15] school. I, you know, so you I had the [22:19] the fortune of growing up in a [22:22] validating black environment, you know, [22:25] which is we talk about that a lot with [22:27] black students, whether they should be [22:29] going to H.B.CU. And what happens when [22:31] you get pulled out into a mixed [22:35] environment where you are so [22:37] underestimated so early, you know, you [22:39] you start, we talked about the messages [22:41] that you start telling yourself. I [22:44] didn't have that because when we were [22:46] young, you know, my mentors, my [22:49] teachers, the coaches, my dance [22:51] teachers, they were all people who if I [22:53] made a mistake or if they um doubted me, [22:57] it was because not because of my race, [22:59] it was because they I disappointed [23:01] somebody in some other way, right? [23:04] So by the time I hit Princeton, [23:07] thankfully I had enough internal data [23:11] that I could do a lot of things that I [23:14] was better, smarter, sharper than they [23:16] would give me credit for. And then it [23:19] was confirmed when I walked onto [23:22] Princeton's campus as an undergrad, [23:25] feeling a little intimidated because it [23:27] was an Ivy League school and I wasn't a [23:30] great test taker. Although I was an [23:31] outstanding student, I wasn't a [23:33] standardized good standardized test [23:35] taker. All those numbers said that I [23:38] shouldn't do well at Princeton. Um, and [23:41] so I came in as an affirmative action [23:43] kid. Sort of feeling like maybe I don't [23:46] belong in these ivory towers and maybe [23:48] these kids coming from these other [23:51] schools are really so much smarter and [23:54] better than I am. And then I sat on that [23:57] campus and I looked around and I was [23:59] like, "Oh my god, well, there's all [24:01] kinds of affirmative action that they [24:03] never talk about." You know, there's [24:04] wealth and legacy. Uh there there's [24:07] athletic uh affirmative action. There [24:10] were a lot of kids that were on that [24:12] campus and as I've [24:14] learned continue to gain access to these [24:17] seats of power that have nothing to do [24:19] with their raw academic ability. there. [24:22] She there there are a lot of bright kids [24:24] who go to these schools, but there are a [24:25] lot of bright kids whose parents get [24:27] them into these schools. And when I got [24:30] on campus and I came out of my first [24:32] semester with straight A's, I was like, [24:35] what's the what are you talking about? [24:38] What what are you who are you? Why are [24:41] you trying to mess with my head in this [24:43] way when you guys are you you're not [24:46] even working as hard as me? But that was [24:49] it was infuriating, but it was freeing [24:52] because I was like, I get it now. This [24:54] you're just trying to get into my head. [24:56] You're scared of me. You know, you don't [24:59] want me competing with you. And I think [25:01] it was at that that period going to one [25:04] of the top schools that I was like, I'm [25:07] done. I am done worrying about whether I [25:10] belong here. You know, this is a scam. [25:14] Um, so that I think that really I came [25:18] out of Princeton just feeling [25:19] like, you know, let me at him, you know, [25:23] you you know, for forget all this stuff. [25:25] And now I'm trying to tell other kids [25:27] that. It's like I'm coming down from the [25:29] mountaintop with the with the tablet of [25:32] truth and going, "Do not let these [25:34] people scam you. This is all a racket." [25:38] What's the scam? That you don't belong. [25:41] That they're smarter. That they work [25:43] harder. that they know more, that they [25:45] deserve this more than you do. That's [25:48] not it's it's just not true. And so from [25:50] then on, I was like, you prove that I [25:54] don't belong here. You know, I'm going [25:56] to sit at these tables and I am going to [25:59] run it from now on. Why Why am I [26:03] listening to you? Why don't you listen [26:04] to me? I think that experience for me [26:07] was freeing in an odd kind of way. And a [26:10] lot of kids don't get access. They're [26:12] just blocked out and they're it's sort [26:14] of like they're told, "Don't look behind [26:15] the curtain because you don't belong." [26:17] And they want us to think that way. I [26:20] stopped think thinking that way a long [26:21] time ago. The journey you've both been [26:24] on is is really really remarkable for so [26:27] many reasons, but it's also remarkable [26:28] for the pivots along the way. And um I [26:31] was reading about a bit of an identity [26:32] crisis that you had when you were 27 28 [26:35] years old, Michelle, when you were you [26:38] were a lawyer. I was a lawyer. Oh yeah. [26:40] Sidley and Austin. Yes. Beautiful high [26:44] paid corporate attorney. U that allowed [26:47] me to buy a nice Saab drive attorney. [26:50] Driving attorney. Uh first job, first [26:52] real job I had had right out of uh uh [26:55] Harvard. Um because that's what you did, [26:58] you know, after you went go to law [27:00] school, top school, you recruited by the [27:02] top firms in the country and they offer [27:04] you exorbitant salaries. So at that age [27:07] as I started as a firstear associate I [27:09] was making more than my parents made [27:12] combined which seemed like something you [27:15] didn't turn down you know if you have [27:17] the opportunity to do that it's like [27:19] well yeah sure I'm going to work for a [27:20] fir firm but that's what I was really [27:23] doing all my life I was box checking I [27:26] was just because I was a good student [27:28] and I could do certain things that's [27:30] what I did you know I sort of understood [27:32] that there was a formula be a good [27:34] student show up do the work. Check. Got [27:36] that. Get good grades. Go to a [27:38] competitive high school. Went to a [27:40] magnet high school. Was this class [27:42] treasurer? Top of the class. Check. Got [27:44] it. I because I can do this. D. I'm just [27:47] marching through life. Check. Check. [27:48] Check. Apply to top college. Um, got [27:52] into Princeton, right? I'm am in. [27:54] Graduated the top of the class. Go to [27:56] law school. Why? I don't know. There [27:59] wasn't really a thought to why I went to [28:01] law school. It was just I don't know [28:03] what I'm going to do after graduate [28:05] school. Not going to be a doctor because [28:08] I don't like science or math. I like to [28:11] talk. I like to argue. And so why not go [28:15] to law school? So I applied to Harvard, [28:17] get in. You go to Harvard. You know that [28:21] that was just that was my thought [28:22] process. There wasn't a there wasn't [28:25] purpose. There wasn't what do I care [28:26] about? I didn't know what being a [28:28] corporate lawyer meant. I was just [28:30] checking boxes. [28:32] until I became a lawyer and and and a [28:36] lot of stuff happened in that year [28:38] besides me just joining uh Sidi and [28:41] Austin in that period of time. We lost [28:43] our father. Um he died very suddenly. Um [28:49] uh um one of my best friends from from [28:53] college uh Suzanne um died of lymphoma [28:58] and it was sudden. She was diagnosed in [29:01] December and she died in May. Really the [29:04] first time in my life where people that [29:07] weren't expected to die died. You know, [29:09] we had lost grandparents and [29:11] great-grandparents and and I I was [29:14] really having kind of an existential [29:16] crisis sitting on the 47th floor of my [29:19] in my beautiful office with a secretary [29:22] and a Saab in the garage thinking, why [29:25] me? Why am I here? Rather than Suzanne [29:29] because she was that friend was also the [29:32] dreamer, the person who wasn't [29:33] boxchecking. She went to Princeton, but [29:36] she traveled the world. She didn't go to [29:38] business school right away. And I always [29:40] thought, you got to get your life [29:41] together. You got to be on a path. And I [29:44] thought, thank God she didn't do that [29:47] because she didn't know she was going to [29:49] die. But instead of sitting in some [29:52] office building, she was living life and [29:54] trying on new things. And I realized I [29:58] hadn't done that for myself. Uh I all I [30:01] was doing was following a game plan. I [30:04] wasn't trying to figure out my purpose. [30:06] And at the same time, I met Barack [30:08] Obama. He showed up in my life as the [30:12] opposite of a box checker, but somebody [30:14] I describe in in my book as an ultimate [30:17] swerver. He did nothing by the book, but [30:20] he was brilliant and interesting. You [30:23] know, he didn't go to law school right [30:24] away. He worked as a community [30:27] organizer. He lived in different parts [30:29] of the world. He was really trying to [30:33] unpack life in a way that people in my [30:36] generation weren't trying to do. You [30:38] were just, you know, I was I was with [30:41] the black bgeoa, right? And people were [30:44] buying their homes and getting their [30:46] cars together and trying to make partner [30:48] at a firm. There was a very finite path. [30:51] And I hadn't explored anything else but [30:54] that. And I thought I I have to do [30:57] something more before I settle on this. [31:00] And I think Barack helped give me the [31:02] courage. you know, he was the person in [31:05] my ear that [31:06] said, "Why would you want to just stop [31:09] here and settle on this career when [31:12] there's so much out there that you [31:13] haven't tried, right? You can do this." [31:16] And I was like, "But I'm I I'm I'm [31:18] loaded down with [31:20] debt." And right around that time, we we [31:23] knew we were going to be together. We [31:24] knew we were going to be engaged. And he [31:26] was like, "We'll get we'll figure that [31:28] out." is like don't don't settle on [31:31] becoming a partner at a law firm because [31:33] of money. You know, it's like you need [31:35] to see the world in a different way and [31:39] we'll figure this out together. And so I [31:42] started swerving. Um I started trying [31:45] other things in life and never looked [31:47] back. Craig, when was the first time you [31:49] heard that your little sister had met a [31:53] guy called Mr. Obama? Well, she called [31:57] it called me up and said, "Hey, I met a [31:59] guy. I want to bring him by." And my [32:01] mom, my dad, and I were sitting on our [32:04] front porch and she pulls up in her nice [32:08] 900 that you've heard a lot about. And [32:10] he gets out of the car and that was the [32:12] first time we met him. And what did you [32:14] think of him? Honestly, [32:17] honestly, I was like, you know, he may [32:20] last two months [32:23] because that's because of her because of [32:27] she'd be he'd do something and be like, [32:29] "Ah, that's a deal breaker." And he'd be [32:30] on on his way. And my mom I remember my [32:33] mom saying, "Well, at least he's tall." [32:36] We we were just meeting him like we [32:38] would meet somebody she'd she'd bring [32:40] by. But I never brought she didn't bring [32:42] a lot of guys by. So that's why we [32:44] thought it wouldn't last that long cuz [32:46] she didn't bring too many guys by. Yeah. [32:48] But why would you think it wouldn't [32:50] last? The people that didn't last you [32:52] didn't meet. But we heard about them. [32:55] Yeah. But they you never met them. Yeah. [32:57] Well, [32:58] I have known my sister. That's one of [33:00] those just sort of myths. Michelle's so [33:02] hard on men, you know. So, it's like [33:05] Yeah. I you know, say she was hard. I [33:07] brought him I brought him home and I [33:09] think there were there was one other [33:10] boyfriend that you met even though I had [33:12] plenty of boyfriends. I just you know I [33:15] met more than than two. Well, that's [33:16] because we went to school together. [33:18] Yeah. Right. Right. Those guys, but they [33:20] didn't come. But they didn't come home. [33:22] Well, okay. Well, I met them. Yeah, I [33:25] met them. But they didn't meet mom and [33:26] dad. No, they didn't meet mom and dad, [33:28] but that's cuz we weren't in Chicago. [33:30] Anyway, all that matters is really how [33:32] it turned out, right? So, this is the [33:35] sibling. It's like, you know, you [33:37] rejected him at first, right? Yeah. [33:40] Yeah. Because he uh Barack was I I was [33:43] assigned to be his advisor. And that [33:46] didn't mean I was his boss, but every I [33:48] was a first year associate. So they [33:50] tried to pair first years sort of wi-i [33:52] with new summer associates just to help [33:55] get them acclimated and to kind of give [33:57] them advice to sort of mentor them for [33:59] the summer. So I was his mentor mentor, [34:02] right? So he comes in, he's late. So I'm [34:05] thinking, okay, this guy's trifling [34:07] because we didn't in the Robinson [34:08] family, we didn't do late, but he was [34:10] raining and he didn't have an umbrella [34:12] and so he was a little wet. Um, so I was [34:16] a little annoyed, but he he stood up and [34:19] he was tall and he was more handsome [34:21] than his picture. So I sort of thought, [34:23] "Oh, okay." And not what I expected. So [34:26] um I took him uh around the office, got [34:30] him settled into his office, took him [34:32] out to lunch for the uh that first day [34:35] and we talked for like hours and I knew [34:39] that we were going to be friends. He was [34:41] smart, he was funny, had a good sense of [34:44] humor, didn't take himself too [34:45] seriously. So, we we clicked right off [34:48] the bat. And over the course of the [34:51] summer, we actually became really good [34:53] friends. I was even trying to introduce [34:55] him to some of my friends, my [34:57] girlfriends, saying, "There's this [34:59] really cute guy who's my adviser." [35:01] because in my mind there wasn't any way [35:03] that the the the few black uh asso [35:08] associates there who both went to [35:10] Harvard were going to date in my mind I [35:12] was like that's going to be tacky that's [35:14] expected right and I was just sort of [35:17] into doing what wasn't not doing the [35:20] expected right so my mind went somewhere [35:23] else I was like h meet all these [35:26] wonderful beautiful women that I know [35:29] you know um and after a couple of [35:31] outings. He said, "Well, why don't we go [35:33] out?" And I was like, "No way are we [35:37] going to go out. That's just not going [35:39] to happen. We're friends." And he was [35:41] sort of like, "Huh? Well, why?" And he [35:43] made the case. I said, "Well, you know, [35:45] I don't think it looks right." And he [35:47] said, "Who cares about how it looks?" [35:49] And so he made his Barack Obama case [35:52] over a couple of weeks. And finally, I [35:54] was like, "Okay, we'll go out on one [35:56] date." And so he planned a a after that [36:01] it was over. It was a full day date [36:04] where he pulled out all the stops. He uh [36:07] we I'm sure I picked him up because I [36:10] had the nice car and we went to the art [36:14] institute where he showed me his suave, [36:17] you know, view of art and we had lunch [36:20] at the museum and then we walked from [36:23] the art institute down Michigan Avenue [36:26] north. So we walked hand in hand, talked [36:29] slowly and you know then we went and had [36:32] dinner on top of Lake Point Tower which [36:35] was a beautiful view of the city and [36:37] then we I think ended the evening [36:40] watching going to Spike Le's do the [36:42] right thing. So I mean he had planned [36:45] you know culture you know art you know [36:50] lovely stroll and slowly I was like okay [36:55] maybe I I you know I spoke too soon you [36:58] know maybe there is something more here [37:01] but yes that's a long way of saying I [37:04] did say no for a a a good month or two [37:08] and but by the end of the summer we were [37:10] I think it was that summer by the end of [37:12] this summer I was introducing him to my [37:15] my family. You both have that throughine [37:18] through your story of ticking the boxes. [37:20] Mhm. And then eventually it's kind of [37:22] what we were talking about yesterday on [37:23] your show where if you have sometimes [37:27] your preconception has to fail you. [37:29] Yeah, that's right. You have to feel it [37:31] for you to understand that maybe a pivot [37:32] is needed in your life. And I was the [37:34] same when I was talking about my early [37:35] journey. Um Valerie, this very [37:38] interesting character in your life. This [37:39] is the letter I found it that Valerie [37:41] wrote into me. And she's talking about [37:44] the pivot you made from being a lawyer [37:46] to leaving that law firm and and going [37:48] in pursuit of something else. What was [37:50] the something else you were pursuing [37:52] before I read what Valerie said to me? I [37:54] had no idea. Um because I didn't know [37:57] anything. U but I started with what I I [38:01] had to spend some time thinking, [38:03] journaling about what did I care about. [38:06] What was the journal question? What [38:08] brought me joy? You know, of all the [38:10] things that I was doing in my life, what [38:11] was the thing when I had it on my [38:14] calendar that I would jump out of bed [38:15] for that would change my the way I felt [38:18] about the day? And it always had to do [38:21] it went back to mentoring because while [38:23] I was doing all this stuff in law in in [38:27] my education, I was always finding ways [38:30] to help younger kids understand how to [38:33] get here. So it was the mentoring piece [38:37] that Craig mentioned, you know, we never [38:39] talked about that when we think about [38:40] our our parents. Um that brought me [38:45] absolute joy, you know. So I I started [38:48] really trying to listen to that [38:50] self-interested part of me, you know, [38:52] it's like what made me happy? I never [38:54] asked myself that. I al I always did [38:57] what I thought I was supposed to do. and [38:59] making money was one of the things that [39:02] you were supposed to do if you were [39:04] anyone who had an opportunity to get an [39:06] Ivy League education. That was really [39:08] all they talked about. That's all they [39:10] showed you. You know, there wasn't a [39:11] course or major in helping people. Um, [39:15] you know, there wasn't a course on [39:17] working with young kids. You know, [39:19] there's no major for that, especially in [39:21] the Ivy Leagues. So, I know I knew [39:24] nothing about the nonprofit world. I [39:26] knew nothing about NOS's. Well, Valerie [39:29] said, she said the opposite. I'm joking. [39:32] I'm joking. I'm [39:34] joking. The day I met Michelle Obama [39:37] changed my life forever. I'll never [39:39] forget the moment she strolled into my [39:41] office for an interview, dressed in all [39:42] black, hair elegantly pulled back. I was [39:44] struck by the confidence that she [39:46] carried herself with. She looked me [39:48] right in the eye when she shook my hand. [39:50] She was so poised and self assured that [39:53] it was hard to believe that she was only [39:54] 27 years old. Michelle told me about her [39:57] life, how she grew up in the Southside, [39:59] how much love and support her parents [40:00] poured into her and her brother Craig. I [40:03] asked her why she was considering public [40:05] service rather than a much more [40:06] lucrative path as a partner in a law [40:08] firm. And she said that she had recently [40:10] lost her dad and her best friend within [40:12] a year. And their deaths were a painful [40:15] reminder of the finitness of life and [40:18] the importance of making it purposeful. [40:20] and how she knew that her abilities [40:23] could lead her to make a difference in [40:24] the lives of others to serve and to give [40:26] back to the city that she had grown up. [40:28] I was so in awe of her clarity of [40:30] purpose, determination, and [40:32] vulnerability that I offered her a job [40:34] on the spot. [40:37] That was close, right? It was the same. [40:40] Like, what did Valerie say? [40:43] And at that time in your life, you know, [40:45] those early 30s, what's what's going on [40:46] with um Mr. Obama? Oh, by then he was uh [40:51] he had written his book because he was [40:55] the president of the Harvard Law Review. [40:58] The president of the Harvard Law Review [40:59] is the top student at the top law school [41:02] in the world. So, and he was the first [41:05] black student to be elected um president [41:08] of the Harvard Law Review. Um and that [41:11] garnered a lot of attention for him. We [41:13] were dating at the time and so he got a [41:16] book contract to write a story, Dreams [41:18] from My Father. Um, which I thought was [41:21] who writes a book at your age, right? [41:23] You know, but he was like, "Yeah, I [41:25] might as well tell my story." And, you [41:26] know, and it was money, right? He got in [41:28] advance and we were engaged, so he was [41:31] working on that project, but he was [41:34] still trying to figure out what he was [41:36] going to do. And when you're the [41:38] president of the Harvard Law Review, [41:39] basically the world of law is open to [41:41] you. The normal path is that you clerk [41:44] for an appellet judge um for a year or [41:48] two and then you go on to to clerk for [41:50] the Supreme Court. Then you know you go [41:53] on to do appellet work. You you know you [41:56] you have offers from every law firm. You [41:58] are in demand or you can do policy or [42:01] whatever. That was the normal path. I [42:04] was like so are you going to clerk? He [42:05] was like why would I clerk? So he didn't [42:07] work at any of the big firms. He went to [42:09] a very small firm that was doing public [42:12] interest work. So he wasn't making a lot [42:15] of money. He was doing what I was doing. [42:16] He was going the opposite direction of [42:19] all the things that was were supposed to [42:21] make us money. But he was like, I money [42:24] isn't why I'm doing this. I'm trying to [42:26] figure out how I can best use my skills [42:28] to impact the most people. So he was [42:31] doing 50 million jobs and we were [42:34] cobbling together our payments for our [42:37] student loans at the time which were [42:39] more than our mortgage. We had bought a [42:41] condominium. We were on our way to [42:43] building our lives together. But we were [42:45] in deep debt. So while we were both [42:47] pursuing our deep love of being in the [42:50] community, we our incomes were going in [42:52] the opposite direction of where they [42:54] were supposed to go. But we were in this [42:57] together. you know, politics hadn't [42:59] really come into the fold yet. It wasn't [43:02] a part of the conversation, but we were [43:04] both kind of on these parallel paths [43:07] kind of figuring out how do we take all [43:09] these skills and all this energy and [43:13] help people. I was working in the city. [43:15] Um, he was working everywhere else and [43:18] writing a book. Um, and we were just [43:21] kind of, you know, we we were sort of [43:23] plotting ahead. [43:25] Business takes me all over the world and [43:27] I travel about 50 weeks a year. And up [43:30] until recently, one of the challenges I [43:31] continued to face was staying connected [43:33] as soon as I landed somewhere new. The [43:35] reality is I don't have time to wait [43:37] around and sort out SIM cards while I'm [43:39] on the go. So, a few months ago, I tried [43:41] something called Aro for the first time, [43:43] and they are now a sponsor of today's [43:45] episode. Heirl is the world's first eIM [43:48] store. It's entirely digital. No SIM [43:51] cards are needed at all, and you can [43:53] keep the same phone number you have now. [43:55] It means that you can get reliable data [43:57] in over 200 destinations with instant [44:00] access to a digital eSIM card with a [44:03] click of a button. When you buy your [44:04] first ALO eSIM, you can get $3 off by [44:07] using code [44:08] DOAC3. For me, being able to land Switch [44:11] on my phone and get back to work is [44:13] gamechanging, and Ero makes this [44:15] possible. Install ALO today to get $3 [44:18] off your first eSIM with code DOAC3 at [44:21] checkout. That's [44:22] DOAC3 when you download the Heirl app. [44:26] I guess I'm seeking advice from both of [44:28] you on uh on love and romance and [44:30] relationships because in your you know [44:32] I'm in my early 30s now and when I [44:34] looked at both of your stories of love [44:36] in your your 30s, [44:38] it's not a straight line. Oh no. No, [44:41] it's not a straight line to say the [44:42] least. Um, Michelle, you talk about [44:44] going to marriage counseling with with [44:47] Brock. What does someone like me at 32 [44:51] years old who is in a relationship, who [44:53] is aggressively pursuing a career, [44:55] because I feel like I've got to build [44:56] and build and build and set my family up [44:58] for the future. What advice would you [44:59] both give me about navigating love [45:02] through that part of your career where [45:04] it's go go go? M for somebody with your [45:09] personality in particular. Um my advice [45:12] would be that [45:15] um you know I could see you thinking, [45:19] you know, if we're if if if I've got my [45:23] stuff together and I've got my path [45:24] going over here and you've got your path [45:26] going over on over there, you know, as [45:29] long as we're both trudging along, you [45:31] know, and pushing, we're going to be [45:33] good. And generally that that can work [45:38] because you can be two independent [45:40] beings out there with, you know, [45:42] basically slaying your own dragons, [45:45] right? Making the choices about which [45:47] dragons you slay and how, you know, how [45:49] how much armor you want to use. You [45:52] know, you're you're independent people [45:54] and that feels good right now until your [45:58] first and most important joint project [46:01] happened, which you told me you want. [46:03] you have kids, right? That's oftent [46:06] times when the rub happens because when [46:10] you when you bring life into the world, [46:13] you [46:14] know, that's the that's the project [46:17] where you can't do that independently. [46:19] You can't you can't be on one path and [46:22] your partner on another because raising [46:25] those kids and making them as whole as [46:27] as you'd want them to be has so little [46:30] to do with the dragon you're slaying now [46:33] than it does with how you partner and [46:36] engage and and and make choices together [46:40] on this these little creatures that [46:42] you're going to love more than anything [46:44] in the world. And you're not gonna want [46:46] to get that project wrong, but you've [46:48] got to work with your partner. You got [46:50] to communicate. And that's when it gets [46:52] really hard. Is that when it got hard [46:54] for you? Yeah. Yeah. Because, you know, [46:57] when you're independent operators in the [47:00] world, it, you know, he's off, he's [47:02] traveling, I'm traveling. You know, [47:04] maybe I don't see him during the week [47:06] and then on Saturday, whoa, it's great. [47:08] I love you. I missed you. This was so [47:10] cool. Tell me about your life. and oh [47:12] this is and it's sexy and it's all of [47:14] this right and it feel and you're you're [47:17] moving and you know and you also are [47:19] okay having a break it's like let me [47:21] miss you for a little bit so I don't [47:23] care that you're traveling or that [47:24] you're everywhere but the minute there's [47:27] a little baby that is waking someone up [47:30] and if there's one person that's [47:32] carrying the burden of that you know if [47:34] one person's dream stops because they're [47:37] taking on the lion share of of things [47:40] and you're still going to the gym and [47:43] you're still slaying your dragons at the [47:45] same rate and you haven't looked over at [47:47] your partner who maybe is now stuck at [47:49] home because she's breastfeeding or she [47:51] made a set of choices to make this [47:54] little creature work and you guys [47:56] haven't had a conversation about that [47:58] and what that balance looks like because [48:01] you're just slaying your dragon at the [48:03] same rate. Oh, there's going to be [48:06] problems. You know, there's going to be [48:09] resentment. There's going to be fatigue. [48:12] There's going to be measuring and [48:14] counting and all the things. So I think [48:17] it's just important to communicate now [48:20] to start doing the work of make making [48:24] sure that you're def you guys are [48:26] defining your one life together that [48:28] you're deciding together now what [48:30] dragons are going to be slaying [48:33] and who gets to do what when you know um [48:38] and what does that feel like you know [48:40] are you going to be working all the time [48:42] are you going to be traveling all the [48:43] time on the road is she coming with you. [48:46] How does she feel about that? Did you [48:48] have that conversation? No. No, we [48:50] didn't have that conversation. No, cuz I [48:51] didn't know that that was a thing that [48:53] you had to worry about because when [48:54] you're in the midst of it, it when [48:57] you're in the midst of pursuing your own [48:59] independent journeys, it's beautiful, [49:02] right? It is. It's like I'm independent, [49:05] he's independent, we we get along, and [49:08] then all of a sudden someone's legs are [49:10] cut up from under them, you know? You [49:13] know, someone is making a different set [49:17] of sacrifices that wasn't negoti that [49:19] weren't negotiated because of children. [49:22] Because of children and because of life. [49:24] You had some pregnancy struggles. Yes. [49:26] And I I've spoken to many women on this [49:28] show who have been through similar [49:30] pregnancy struggles. And it's something [49:32] that I've it's actually a big [49:34] conversation in my life at the moment, [49:35] but also just some of my friends in my [49:37] life around trying to get pregnant um [49:40] and the IVF journey which you went on. [49:43] What do women who are struggling need to [49:46] understand and how did you feel when you [49:50] were [49:51] contemplating the IVF journey and when [49:54] you started to have struggles uh [49:55] conceiving without IVF? Well, it's the [49:58] thing, you know, because we don't talk [50:00] about our bodies and women's health and [50:03] there's just not a lot of conversation [50:05] about marriage or pregnancy or any of [50:08] this. Our parents don't talk about it. [50:10] Their parents before them don't talk [50:12] about it. Right? So, you imagine your [50:15] life and as you're checking boxes, I'm [50:18] waiting. I've delayed having kids. I [50:20] found the love of my life and now I'm [50:22] going to get pregnant. And no one tells [50:24] you that there is really a biological [50:27] clock. Like that's not false. You know, [50:31] we have partner in podcast Dr. Sharon [50:34] Malone who wrote a book grown woman talk [50:37] where she's talking she's sort of [50:39] ripping the the the the curtain off of [50:42] women's health questions. And in a [50:45] conversation with her, she reminded us [50:46] that women, we are born with a finite [50:49] set of eggs and we don't get anymore. [50:53] And every month we're losing them. And [50:55] so there is a period of time usually, [50:57] and it's different for everyone, usually [51:00] in your 30s where you go from f fertile [51:03] to not. And it's like falling off of a [51:07] cliff. And I'm like, why didn't anybody [51:10] tell me this? I know. Why? Why? Why [51:13] wasn't people why weren't people talking [51:15] about this? So, by the time I we started [51:18] really trying, which which worked [51:20] perfectly for our careers and maturing [51:22] and having everything set, right? [51:25] Because that's what we're we're trying [51:26] to get everything set. Unlike our [51:28] parents who, you know, had us, we lived [51:30] in a little bitty apartment, you know, [51:31] one income. Our generation were worrying [51:34] about I want everything set. I I [51:37] guarantee you, you have things way more [51:39] set than any any of our parents had [51:41] before they started having kids. But [51:44] we're waiting for everything to be [51:45] perfect. No friction. We don't want any [51:48] friction, right? And while we're we're [51:50] waiting for our lives to be perfect, [51:52] that biological clock is ticking. So, [51:54] you start trying and you it's not [51:57] working. That's when you go to the [51:59] doctor and they tell you, [52:00] "Oh, you're you're running out of eggs. [52:03] This is normal. I mean, you're going to [52:05] have trouble getting pregnant and so try [52:07] a little bit and then now it's time for [52:10] IVF. Um, if you can afford it, which it [52:13] wasn't covered by insurance at the time. [52:15] So, you know, it's just a shock to the [52:18] system and as some as people who like [52:21] learning and like knowledge, you really [52:23] sort of feel jipped. Yeah. You know, [52:25] that why why is this such a secret? Um, [52:28] which is why I talk about it openly and [52:31] I talk about miscarriages because the [52:33] other thing I learned is like most [52:35] pregnancies, a good percentage of them [52:38] end in miscarriage. That people have [52:40] been having miscarriages for years but [52:42] not talking about it. So when it happens [52:44] to you, a box checker, somebody that [52:47] thought life was going to be so and you [52:48] did all the right things, to have things [52:51] not work out and to know that it was [52:53] going to be that way and nobody told you [52:55] so that you could be prepared for it, it [52:57] just it was a blow. And then as a woman, [53:00] you're walking around owning the blow as [53:02] if it's your fault, you know. Um, and so [53:06] you're carrying around that burden. And [53:07] that can become the first pressure point [53:10] in a marriage because emotionally you've [53:14] got a woman that is carrying all of [53:16] this. Feeling like a failure, feeling [53:19] not having anyone to talk about, having [53:21] her hormones go up and down literally, [53:25] right? Probably dealing with depression [53:27] and maybe some postpartum. Still [53:29] working, still slaying dragons, still on [53:32] the path, but she's carrying it all on [53:35] her own. And then if you do IVF, the [53:38] bulk of the work, the shots, the the we [53:41] are the we are the the the petri dish in [53:44] the IVF process. You show up, you come [53:47] in a cup, and ooh, yay, good for you, [53:51] right? And you're a little mad about [53:52] that, too, because women have to get [53:54] shots every week, [53:57] and you have to go back and forth in [53:59] between having your job, your [54:01] high-powered job, and keeping it all [54:02] together. You're at the doctor's office [54:05] every month trying to count your eggs [54:07] and hoping that you're producing eggs [54:09] and then you have to go through the [54:10] procedure and then you have to be [54:13] pregnant for nine [54:15] months as your partner is going to the [54:18] gym and keeping his figure and you know [54:21] all of that you know so it's a long way [54:24] of saying there are just many natural [54:26] reasons why marriage [54:29] infertility trying to have [54:32] kids makes things difficult. It's like I [54:36] I try to tell couples, of course it's [54:39] hard. Just listen to what I said, right? [54:42] Like it's pro if you're having some [54:44] issues in your marriage. It's not you, [54:48] it's the process of marriage. It's just [54:51] all hard because guess what happens when [54:53] it all works out right? You know what? [54:54] You end up [54:55] with babies. [54:59] little people with their own sense of [55:03] everything. They mess you up. You love [55:05] them dearly, but they're a hassle [55:08] and they're demanding and they have [55:11] their own whims. And now they're in your [55:14] world in in your partnership. They are [55:17] you you they they are factored into [55:19] everything. So even when everything [55:21] works out and you have the 3.2 two kids [55:25] and you got everything right, it's still [55:27] going to be hard because now you're [55:30] you're developing a life, right? So, I [55:35] talk about these things because I think [55:37] that people give up too quickly on on [55:41] marriage, right? because there is so [55:44] much friction built in to the equation. [55:47] And if you're not getting help, talking [55:49] about it, going to therapy, just [55:52] understanding how things are changing [55:54] and how do you continuously renegotiate [55:57] your relationship with your partner. I I [56:01] just see people quitting because they [56:03] look at me and Barack and go # couple [56:06] goals, you know, and I'm like, it's [56:08] hard. It's hard for us, too. But I [56:11] wouldn't trade it. You know, he is, as [56:14] the young people say, he is my person. [56:16] Was there ever a moment where you [56:18] thought, you know, there are the moments [56:20] where I'm [56:21] like, [56:23] right, but it was it real? No. No. No. [56:28] There's there was never really a full [56:30] moment. There were moments when I was [56:32] resentful. There were moments when I was [56:34] mad. There were moments when I didn't [56:36] feel like I got enough attention. [56:40] But it's like, don't you feel that in [56:42] your relationship right now? Yeah. You [56:44] know, so it's just me understanding. [56:48] Yeah, I was mad, but I forgot even why I [56:50] was mad. Right. That's so it's like, was [56:53] I really that mad? Oh, did I say that? [56:55] I'm sorry. I didn't really mean that. [56:58] So, no, in the end, you know, mm- no, [57:01] we're, you know, and the beauty of my [57:06] husband and my our partnership is that [57:09] neither one of us was ever really ever [57:12] going to quit at it cuz that's not who [57:14] we are. And I know that about him. He [57:17] knows that about me, you know. Um, so [57:19] no, both of your lives change because of [57:24] a decision that former President Barack [57:27] Obama decides to make, which is to run [57:29] for public office. And that is has a [57:32] profound impact on both of your lives [57:34] because it's the most powerful job in [57:35] the world. It is you become the most [57:38] famous family in the [57:40] world. When he said that he was going to [57:44] do that, did you believe that he was [57:46] capable of it? Uh yeah, that was the the [57:50] problem is [57:53] like, you know, I I I knew that in my [57:57] heart I knew that he would make a [58:00] phenomenal president. Um and as I've [58:03] written in in in the light, um uh the [58:07] the truth was is that my initial [58:10] reaction was like, "Oh no, oh my god, [58:12] don't do this." It had everything to do [58:15] with having the foresight of knowing [58:17] what this would do to our lives. I mean, [58:19] I was projecting that if you win, which [58:22] I thought he could and should. He would [58:24] be somebody that I would want as my [58:26] president. It was all about this is [58:29] going to, you know, our kids are little. [58:31] We're going to have to move. How do you [58:33] raise kids in the White House? Um, it's [58:36] dangerous. Is the first black potential [58:40] president. We knew there would be death [58:42] threats. there were just all the how [58:44] would we afford it because it's it's [58:46] expensive to live in the White House as [58:48] many people don't know I mean much is [58:51] not covered um you're paying for every [58:54] food every bit of food that you eat you [58:56] you know you're not paying for housing [58:58] and the staff in it but everything even [59:01] travel if you're not traveling with the [59:02] president if your kids are coming on a [59:05] bright star which is the first lady's [59:06] plane we had to play pay for their [59:09] travel to be on the plane it is an [59:11] expensive [59:12] proposition and you're running for two [59:14] years and not earning an income. Um, so [59:17] all of that was in my mind. Um, how [59:20] would we manage this? So my fears were [59:25] uh what came from the fact that I [59:26] thought he could win, you know, cuz if I [59:29] maybe way in the back of my mind I was [59:32] hoping that maybe he wouldn't, you know, [59:34] that this would be the last thing he [59:36] would do. [59:38] Um, but I knew he had it in him uh to [59:43] make this happen. This one change has [59:47] transformed how my team and I move, [59:49] train, and think about our bodies. When [59:51] Dr. Daniel Lieberman came on the DEO, he [59:53] explained how modern shoes with their [59:55] cushioning and support are making our [59:57] feet weaker and less capable of doing [59:59] what nature intended them to do. We've [60:01] lost the natural strength and mobility [60:03] in our feet and this is leading to [60:05] issues like back pain and knee pain. I'd [60:08] already purchased a pair of Viva [60:10] barefoot shoes. So, I showed them to [60:11] Daniel Lieberman and he told me that [60:13] they were exactly the type of shoe that [60:15] would help me restore natural foot [60:17] movement and rebuild my strength. But, I [60:18] think it was planticitis that I had [60:19] where suddenly my feet started hurting [60:21] all the time. And after that, I decided [60:22] to start strengthening my own foot by [60:24] using the Viva Barefoot. And research [60:26] from Liverpool University has backed [60:27] this up. They've shown that wearing [60:29] vivarfoot shoes for 6 months can [60:31] increase foot strength by up to [60:33] 60%. Visit vivo [60:36] barefoot.com/doac and use code diary 20 [60:39] from my sponsor for 20% off. A strong [60:42] body starts with strong feet. This has [60:46] never been done before. A newsletter [60:48] that is ran by 100 of the world's top [60:52] CEOs. All the time people say to me, [60:54] they say, "Can you mentor me? Can you [60:56] get this person to mentor me? How do I [60:58] find a mentor? So, here is what we're [60:59] going to do. You're going to send me a [61:01] question. And the most popular question [61:03] you send me, I'm going to text it to 100 [61:07] CEOs, some of which are the top CEOs in [61:09] the world running a hundred billion [61:10] dollar companies. And then I'm going to [61:13] reply to you via email with how they [61:15] answered that question. You might say, [61:18] "How do you hold on to a relationship [61:19] when you're building a startup? What is [61:21] the most important thing if I've got an [61:23] idea and don't know where to start?" We [61:24] email it to the CEOs. They email back. [61:26] We take the five, six top best answers. [61:28] We email it to you. I was nervous [61:29] because I thought the marketing might [61:31] not match the reality. But then I I saw [61:33] what the founders were replying with and [61:35] their willingness to reply and I thought [61:36] actually this is really good and all [61:38] you've got to do is sign up completely [61:41] free. Did you ask for any commitments or [61:44] promises if he were to win? [61:47] I you know it it wasn't very thoughtful. [61:52] Um, I told him that he definitely had to [61:55] quit smoking because he was still toying [61:57] with smoking. He was in it and not in [62:00] it. Um, and we had to have enough of a [62:03] nest egg so that, you know, we could [62:06] that we wouldn't be just financially [62:09] broke at the end of it. And, you know, I [62:12] thought that that that was going to cut [62:14] it, right? because we weren't in really [62:17] we we we were just starting to make uh [62:21] decision moves where we were covering [62:23] the income that we lost making our [62:25] purposeful moves. So I kind of thought [62:28] that was going to be the deal breaker. [62:30] But then he was chosen to give the [62:32] speech at the Democratic National [62:33] Convention and he just blew up. And as a [62:38] result of that, and maybe I'm getting it [62:40] out of order, Dreams for My Father went [62:44] back on the bestsellers list. He brought [62:46] wrote Audacity of Hope, you know, so [62:48] there was all this income that was being [62:51] generated from his book sales. And he [62:54] kind of looked at me like, I think we're [62:56] okay. And I'm like, [62:59] darn. Um, so I I didn't know enough to [63:03] know what to ask for. I mean, we were [63:06] flying blind. I didn't know what that [63:09] journey was going to be and what I would [63:11] need to negotiate for myself. And that [63:13] was a bit problematic. It was [63:15] problematic not to know what I needed. [63:18] What should you have said? Oh. [63:23] Um, I should [63:26] have said that I [63:29] needed his [63:31] team to really truly value that he had a [63:35] family, you know, that I I shouldn't [63:38] have just said, well, this is what it [63:41] takes to get this done. I mean, it was [63:43] almost like the consultants that sit [63:45] around. It was almost like this is the [63:47] way it has to be. And remember the the [63:50] legacy of the presidential office [63:53] doesn't recognize families. It it is not [63:57] designed, you know, you get in there and [64:00] it all revolves around the [64:02] commanderin-chief who has always been a [64:05] man. And the whole system of it doesn't [64:08] really take into account that there's a [64:11] wife and kids and their needs and their [64:15] the demands on them. Um, so I wound up [64:19] having to fight for a lot of stuff on my [64:22] own. So if I had known these things and [64:25] maybe maybe Laura Bush knew more than I [64:28] did because the Bushes had been in the [64:30] White House, maybe, you know, you know, [64:32] there I I think about maybe there's some [64:34] world where people knew more about this [64:36] thing than we did to understand the [64:38] impacts. But there are also generational [64:41] differences. I was a very different [64:42] first lady. uh not terribly different [64:45] from Hillary Clinton, but it was a [64:47] different time. Uh we had small kids in [64:50] the White House and that didn't happen [64:52] often. There were just uh accommodations [64:56] and and and ways that the the West Wing [65:00] did not think about [65:03] or or work to fully protect all of us in [65:07] the process as a unit. And so if I had [65:11] known what I know knew now, I I would [65:14] have asked for different things, but I [65:16] ultimately I had to push to to get the [65:18] things that we needed to be able to [65:21] operate as a family. Even when it came [65:23] down to how the Secret Service protected [65:26] little kids, you know, um the girls had [65:30] to have a detail, right? So they started [65:34] school in second grade and fifth grade [65:37] in armed cars with primarily men with [65:42] guns going into a new school. Um [65:46] strangers that they did not know and the [65:49] details weren't they weren't practiced [65:52] on going to Sidwell's second grade uh [65:58] schoolyard. So we had to basically work [66:01] on how do you how do you do this for [66:03] little kids, you know. So a lot of times [66:06] details just flood through. They they [66:08] they continuously move through. It was [66:11] important for me that we find two detail [66:15] leaders that stayed with the girls for [66:17] most of their time until they became [66:19] teenagers because it was sort of like [66:22] you know these people, right? At least [66:24] they get to know. they couldn't just [66:26] have strange men coming throughout. Um, [66:29] and we had to kind of fight for that. [66:31] Um, so those that's just one example of [66:37] the what living under those things and [66:40] trying to raise small children, you [66:43] know, the kind of things that the guys [66:45] in the West Wing weren't thinking about [66:47] as they were fixing the financial crisis [66:49] and dealing with Syria and on and on and [66:52] on. I was trying to make sure that our [66:54] kids came out of that process not crazy [66:58] um and whole. Being the first black [67:03] first lady in the White [67:06] House, the public scrutiny that that [67:08] comes with is a unique type of scrutiny. [67:11] Mhm. Being the first lady anyway comes [67:13] with tremendous scrutiny. Absolutely. [67:17] Since stepping reluctantly into public [67:19] life, I've been held up as the most [67:22] powerful woman in the world and taken [67:25] down as an angry black woman. I've [67:28] wanted to ask my detractors which part [67:30] of that phrase matters to them the most. [67:33] Is it angry or black or woman? I've [67:38] smiled for photos with people who call [67:40] my husband horrible names on national [67:42] television, but still want a framed [67:45] keepsake for their mantle. I've heard [67:48] about the swampy parts of the internet [67:50] that question everything about me, right [67:53] down to whether I'm a woman or man. A [67:56] sitting US congressman has made fun of [67:58] my butt. I've been hurt. I've been [68:02] furious. [68:04] But mostly I've tried to laugh this [68:06] stuff off. [68:09] Craig, if that was my little [68:11] sister, public scrutiny, elevated to the [68:14] the highest office in the land, [68:17] I'll ask you the question. How how would [68:19] how did you feel? So I that [68:22] that's let me back up. Because I had [68:25] been a basketball coach at a big [68:29] conference, I always had to tell them, [68:32] "Don't worry about what people say in [68:33] the newspaper. I'm doing exactly what I [68:36] love to do." Mhm. And that doesn't [68:39] bother me at all. Okay. But then once [68:41] they got in the White [68:45] House, I had to tell myself that. Yeah. [68:49] because I knew that they were doing the [68:54] best that they could do for the most [68:57] people no matter what anybody said. [69:01] But because it's my little sister and [69:03] brother-in-law and my mom was in the [69:04] White House and my nieces, I would I [69:07] there were times where I would find [69:08] myself becoming enraged and I'd have to [69:11] coach myself [69:13] to I know they're doing the best they're [69:17] doing they they can do for the most [69:19] people and I would not want anybody else [69:23] sitting in that seat but my sister and [69:25] brother-in-law. And that's how I got [69:27] through eight years of that. Because [69:30] it's relentless. It is relentless. It's [69:32] relentless. It is global. It is unfair. [69:36] And it's mean. It's just mean. And you [69:39] know the I' I've leaned back on the [69:42] lessons I learned from my parents a long [69:44] time ago. I wasn't worried about what [69:46] anybody said who wasn't at this [69:49] table. And um and and I I [69:52] coached I I counseledled my family, my [69:56] immediate family, the same thing cuz our [69:58] kids, we our older kids were old enough [69:59] to read the papers and read the read the [70:02] news and and things online, [70:05] but Meech always talks about [70:08] this. In order to get through that, she [70:12] always says she needed the village of [70:14] her friends and family. And I just [70:16] wanted to be a supportive piece of that. [70:18] And we tried to get out there as much as [70:20] we could and make it as normal as you [70:23] can, you know, having Thanksgiving in [70:26] the White House. You know, that that's [70:28] an oxymoron almost having a normal [70:31] Thanksgiving in the White House. But we [70:33] tried to make it as normal as we could. [70:37] And yourself, how how does one deal with [70:40] such scrutiny? The scrutiny occurs for [70:43] eight years as the you know the public [70:45] are at war with different opinions and [70:46] ideas and often the president is seen as [70:49] the the villain or the hero in that [70:50] context and the family is obviously [70:52] impacted by that. But then even beyond [70:54] the White House it's it's relentless. [70:59] What is the is there a framework? Is [71:00] there an underlying belief? Is there a [71:02] set of values? You know it go it goes [71:03] back to what we learned earlier. I think [71:06] I approach everything with empathy. Um, [71:09] and Barack does too, and he he helps [71:12] keep me in check. Um, because he is so [71:16] smart and he believes in ideas and he [71:18] understands context in [71:20] history. You know, we we are always [71:23] putting these times, these moments into [71:26] a greater context. And we're trying to [71:28] understand where people's rage, [71:32] ignorance, hatred, whatever it is, where [71:35] it comes from. And it usually doesn't [71:38] have anything to do with us, you know. [71:40] It has to do [71:41] with the state of the world, you know, [71:44] and the world in this country is unfair [71:47] for way more people than it is fair to. [71:51] And it impacts people of all races. And [71:55] folks are angry and they're scared. Um, [71:57] and they don't have enough opportunity. [71:59] And when people are put in that [72:01] position, they lash out. They're mean. [72:05] That's when they're they're you know we [72:07] we we otherize people because it gives [72:10] us a sense of stability. We pick on [72:13] someone has to be a little more [72:15] oppressed than us. Um but that doesn't [72:18] make what they say or feel true. You [72:21] know that's you know just because you [72:23] say it or think it about me and the way [72:25] that I had to overcome the racist low [72:29] expectations of us in our childhood. [72:32] It's the same thing. It's like, you're [72:35] not mad at me. You don't understand a [72:38] lot about the world. And you've been [72:40] told a lot of things about who people of [72:43] my skin color are. You've been taught to [72:45] fear me because of the history of our [72:48] country, because of what you're going [72:49] through. And when you put yourself in [72:51] other people's shoes, you I I do get why [72:55] people are afraid. I do understand it. [72:58] And also Barack helps me remember which [73:00] I experienced myself, you know, he says [73:03] this is still the country that elected [73:05] Barack Obama twice, you know, and people [73:08] in this country are proud of that. [73:10] There's a very small percentage of [73:12] people who would never ever in their [73:16] lifetime uh want a black man to tell [73:19] them how to get down the street to the [73:22] grocery store, right? Um they can't hear [73:24] it. But this this country is bigger than [73:28] that, right? Um and we saw it. We [73:31] experienced it as much hatred or you [73:35] know conflict or ridicule. We we had so [73:40] much love, so much goodwill, you know, [73:44] so many people who tell us even today we [73:47] miss you guys, you know, and it doesn't [73:50] look like any you'd be surprised at what [73:52] corners of the world and our daughters [73:55] felt it and feel it, right? That is [73:58] true, too. We are in a really tough time [74:01] right now and we are being led sadly by [74:04] people who are are are not being in my [74:09] opinion their best selves um for [74:12] whatever reasons they have, whatever is [74:15] moving them to to push this country in [74:18] this direction. Whatever hurts they [74:20] have. Billionaires have their hurts too. [74:23] you know, business leaders, people in [74:26] power who want power and haven't [74:28] understand understood their why, you [74:31] know, can lead us down some dark [74:34] tunnels, right? But it's that empathy [74:37] for me um that that ability to kind of [74:41] give it some perspective that allows me [74:44] not to take all that hate in and to [74:48] really, you know, see the light in [74:50] people. you know, it's just the better [74:52] way to live. It keeps us from being [74:56] embittered. Uh, and it keeps us hopeful [74:58] and it keeps us working for for people, [75:02] you know. Um, so it's it's kind of a [75:04] necessity to get through it. [75:07] Marian, your wonderful mother, she was a [75:11] prominent figure throughout that time in [75:13] the White House. Oh, yeah. [75:15] What did she give you that helped you [75:18] through that journey of being thrust [75:20] into the very very very highest mountain [75:23] in public service? What role did she [75:26] play? What force was she at that time [75:28] for you both? [75:30] For me, she continued to be [75:33] that soft place to land, you know, the [75:37] place where she always saw me. Always [75:41] always saw who I was. [75:44] Um, and she was that soft place for our [75:48] girls. She was common sense right in the [75:52] middle of the White House, you know, in [75:54] that big house. People, you know, just [75:58] with her sheer presence and her wisdom, [76:02] you know, that old-fashioned wisdom, she [76:05] was the center of that house. Everyone [76:08] came to her door and sat in her room and [76:12] sucked up her wisdom. The butlers, the, [76:16] you know, the florists, the [76:18] housekeepers, the chefs, you know, they [76:22] they were all motherred in some way by [76:24] her. Um, and so she was that for me for [76:28] sure. I can still see her in your face [76:30] as you reflect. She's there. She is [76:33] there. I see it in his face more. You [76:35] know how you you don't see yourself in [76:37] your like I don't think I look like him [76:39] at all, right? But he looks just like my [76:41] mother, right? How did that loss impact [76:44] the family? It's 2024, so it's fairly [76:47] recent. Yeah. Yeah. It's still it's [76:50] still painful. Um but, you know, I'll go [76:54] back to what I I said at the very [76:56] beginning when you talked about the [76:57] values we had. The underlying value was [77:01] unconditional love. [77:03] And Misha and I knew that our mom loved [77:07] us. And we and and even more [77:10] importantly, she knew we loved her. She [77:13] knew her grandkids loved her. So while [77:16] her dying was traumatic and [77:20] disappointing and [77:23] sad, I always feel like she knew where [77:26] we stood and she was it was it was when [77:29] when she was uh right before she passed [77:33] away and she we knew she was going to be [77:36] leaving us and I said uh you know Meech [77:40] and Barack are on our way and she was [77:41] like oh that's nice and she just said [77:44] that that was [77:49] Yeah. There was nothing left unsaid. [77:53] Yeah. Yeah. And there's just there was [77:57] there's just a piece. Yeah. Yeah. I I I [78:00] just miss her. Mhm. Right. But I feel [78:04] like she knows how we feel about her and [78:07] that's that's always comforting. And [78:10] speaking of comfort, that's how I felt [78:13] when she was in the White [78:15] House for [78:17] them cuz I didn't have to worry about [78:20] them when she was [78:21] there. Have you processed the the grief? [78:24] Have you been able to? [78:27] I'm sure I have more than he does cuz he [78:30] doesn't process stuff. He just keeps [78:32] working through it. But yeah. Yeah. I I [78:35] think I've I pro I for me [78:39] um [78:41] making choices for me. I feel like now I [78:44] have permission to do what I want to do. [78:48] I think part of our podcast is part of [78:51] that legacy. Um because at least for me [78:55] as a woman, I think at [78:58] 61, I'm finally owning my wisdom. um in [79:02] a way that I don't, you know, I think it [79:04] takes women until we're about 60 to be [79:07] like, I I think I know a thing or two, [79:10] but that wisdom comes from her. And [79:13] she's she was she's our our last line of [79:16] elder wisdom. And so now we're up, we're [79:19] next up, believe it or not, me and Craig [79:21] and our family, we're the we're the [79:23] ones. Um, so IMO, um, in my opinion, our [79:29] podcast is sort of that offering back. [79:32] It's like, all right, let's let's keep [79:35] up the mentoring that we were taught, [79:37] you know, let's let's let's create our [79:40] table and be a place where people can [79:43] come for the little bit of advice and [79:46] conversation in the same way that you're [79:48] doing, Stephen. It's like when you when [79:50] you learn [79:51] something, the way you hone in on it is [79:54] that you keep teaching it to other [79:56] people, right? You said that, right? [79:59] Um and so this is sort of helping us [80:03] continue to you know by helping others [80:06] which is a thing we both get great joy [80:08] from that mentoring just being able to [80:11] you know have this conversation here and [80:14] maybe somebody's going to get something [80:15] from it that I missed when I was their [80:17] age that brings us joy. It's like we're [80:22] here for a reason other than making a [80:25] bunch of money and you know living a [80:27] nice life or being famous. It's like [80:29] maybe we can help somebody. Permission. [80:32] Yeah. I was watching the coverage over [80:34] your decision, your decision to sort of [80:36] take back some of your control and not [80:37] go to Trump's inauguration. Uhhuh. Is [80:39] that one of those key moments in your [80:41] life where you did take back control? [80:43] Absolutely. Absolutely. What was the [80:45] thinking behind that decision? [80:49] Um, what do I want to do in this moment? [80:53] you know, as a boxcheing a person who [80:56] has been box checking her whole life, [80:59] doing the right thing. [81:01] Um, trying to always be an example, [81:05] always going high. Um, I I think I now I [81:09] earned a little bit about how do I feel, [81:12] you know, do I want to up in my life and [81:16] and and take this trip and leave my [81:18] peace and my children for this? I don't [81:23] didn't have to. That that was my choice. [81:25] And I I was not I would have never made [81:28] that choice. I would have always done [81:31] what what I thought was the the right [81:34] thing to do for other people to set an [81:37] example. And I I I think I just told [81:40] myself, I think I've done enough of [81:43] that. And if I haven't, then I never [81:46] will. It'll never be enough. So, let me [81:49] start now. This is the perfect time to [81:51] start. Um, so yeah, obviously off the [81:55] back of that people start to swell [81:56] rumors that there's an issue with you [81:57] and Brock and there's it was coming. I [81:59] can I mean you can say it yourself, but [82:02] I don't think that needs to be [82:03] addressed. [82:08] What I will say, you know me now well [82:10] enough, Stephen, is if I were having [82:12] problems with my husband, everybody [82:13] would know about it. If you're like, and [82:16] let me tell you, and then and he would [82:18] know it and everybody would know it. I'm [82:20] not a martyr. I'm not, you know, and I [82:22] would I would be problem solving in pro [82:24] public and be like, "Let me tell you [82:27] what he did." Listen podcast now as [82:29] well. So we were wait but if they were [82:31] having a problem Yeah. I'd be doing a [82:33] podcast with him. [82:38] Your your podcast is incredible and I [82:40] highly recommend everybody goes and [82:41] checks it out. Um I'm going to link it [82:42] below on the screen. I was fortunate [82:44] enough to be invited on it yesterday and [82:45] we had a wonderful conversation in [82:46] there. IM O in my opinion it's a you [82:51] know it's a reflection of this kind of [82:53] conversation. It's human. It's a [82:54] discovery of life. You're bringing [82:55] people on there that have wisdom to [82:57] share but you're passing through that to [82:58] understand the world that we're all [83:00] living in and the struggles that we're [83:01] all contending with. So it's a wonderful [83:02] wonderful space on the internet. I [83:04] highly recommend my viewers go and check [83:06] it out on Spotify, on YouTube, wherever [83:08] you get your podcasts. It's a must [83:09] listen in my my opinion because it's so [83:11] rare that we get an insight and a window [83:13] into the the family, but also just the [83:15] human story of everything that you've [83:17] both been through in your lives as a [83:19] really successful coach, as a stock [83:21] broker, as the first lady, as a mother, [83:23] um, and then everything you're going to [83:24] do thereafter. You're helping me [83:26] navigate the world and you help other [83:28] people navigate the world because not [83:29] everybody has that foundation. Not [83:31] everybody has the parents at home. [83:32] Everybody has, especially in black [83:34] communities, not everybody has the [83:36] mentors and you're vicariously mentoring [83:39] the world through that show. So, please [83:40] do continue. It's a wonderful thing to [83:42] get to podcast and I was so happy to [83:43] hear when you joined the industry. We [83:45] have a closing tradition. Yes. And the [83:47] closing tradition on this podcast is [83:49] that the last guest leaves a question [83:50] for the next guest not knowing who [83:51] they're leaving it for. Okay. So the [83:53] question that's been left for you both [83:55] is if there is one person in your life [83:57] that you have been afraid of putting up [83:59] a boundary with but know you need to who [84:03] would it be? Now you don't have to name [84:05] them but I guess this question is just [84:07] about boundaries. Yeah. [84:12] The inauguration might have been the [84:14] opposite. Yeah. I think I've kind of [84:15] done that. Yeah. Yeah. But at this age [84:19] we got our boundaries well set. Uh I I [84:22] think this that's a that's that's [84:26] um I because we're not naming a who I [84:30] think it's the act of practicing setting [84:32] boundaries period. Right. And I'm I'm [84:35] having that conversation with my [84:37] daughters now. I mean, it takes a lot of [84:40] work to learn how to say no and how not [84:44] to be um people pleasers, which I think [84:47] there are more of us out there than we'd [84:49] like to admit. It takes practice and it [84:52] takes decades of practice. Um, and I am [84:55] constantly giving my my girls tips on [84:58] how to do it, how to politely do it, how [85:01] to, you know, how to not jam yourself [85:05] up, how to not say yes right away, how [85:07] to take a moment and say, "Let me think [85:09] about that." You know, some of a [85:12] boundary is just saying, "Wait, I don't [85:16] have to give you an answer right now. [85:18] let me go back and sit in it in the the [85:22] request and figure out whether it works [85:25] for me. And so many of us as pleasers, [85:28] we're trying to give people an an answer [85:30] right away. And it's hard to look [85:33] someone in the face and say no. So I [85:36] think it takes practice, even practice [85:38] in the wording of it. And then the older [85:40] you get, the easier it gets because [85:42] guess what? to realize your no doesn't [85:45] usually change anyone else's life. You [85:48] know, they might be disappointed, but [85:49] guess what? It all they will find the [85:52] next, you know, person that they'll ask. [85:54] The world continues. None of us are that [85:57] important. Um, and people can deal with [86:00] a little disappointment every now and [86:03] then. And with that, I thank you both. [86:05] It's such an honor to get to meet you [86:07] and um to learn so much from you. And [86:09] yeah, I uh the rise of your family, the [86:12] grace, the humility, and the way that [86:13] you've conducted yourself has been a [86:14] huge source of inspiration for me as a [86:16] young black man that's navigating the [86:18] world and that's looking up to role [86:19] models um that aren't often um as in [86:23] close proximity in our lives. So, thank [86:25] you so much. I I can't tell you how much [86:27] you had a profound impact on on me [86:31] thousands of miles away in a small [86:33] little village in the southwest of [86:34] England. had a profound impact on me in [86:36] shaping the man that I became in my life [86:38] and that's a credit to your family and [86:40] it's just the greatest honor that I got [86:41] to speak to you both today. So, thank [86:43] you. It's been a a pleasure. Absolute [86:46] treat to be spending time with you. [86:48] Thanks for having us and hopefully it [86:49] won't be the last. I hope not. Yeah. [86:52] This has always blown my mind a little [86:54] bit. 53% of you that listen to this show [86:56] regularly haven't yet subscribed to the [86:58] show. So, could I ask you for a favor? [87:00] If you like the show and you like what [87:01] we do here and you want to support us, [87:03] the free simple way that you can do just [87:04] that is by hitting the subscribe button. [87:06] And my commitment to you is if you do [87:08] that, then I'll do everything in my [87:09] power, me and my team, to make sure that [87:11] this show is better for you every single [87:13] week. We'll listen to your feedback. [87:15] We'll find the guests that you want me [87:16] to speak to and we'll continue to do [87:18] what we do. Thank you so [87:20] [Music] [87:24] much. Heat. Heat. [87:26] [Music]