Simon Sinek Says Knowledge-Worker AI Automation Accelerates Human Skill Loss

Simon Sinek：知识工作者的AI自动化正加速人类技能退化 将脑力劳动与社交冲突外包给人工智能会导致认知萎缩，同时侵蚀基本的人际联结。 Simon Sinek与Steven Bartlett探讨了AI的飞速发展如何对人类真实性、社交联结以及核心人际交往技能构成威胁。Sinek强调，将冲突化解、情感表达和批判性思维外包给技术，会导致认知与情感层面的退化。对话凸显了人类不完美之处的价值、奋斗与切身体验的重要性，并阐释了为何深厚友谊与情感自立是抵御现代孤独及职场动荡的根本屏障。 将化解冲突、应对压力或撰写道歉信等人类专属任务外包给AI，会导致认知与情感技能的退化。 (0:00) 尽管历史上的工业自动化主要冲击蓝领岗位，但当前的AI变革首当其冲威胁的是白领知识工作者。 (2:22) 人与人之间的联结与欣赏依赖于不完美和脆弱性，而经过润色且具衍生性质的AI内容无法复刻这些特质。 (12:42) AI时代的关键技能聚焦于人类的核心能力，包括积极倾听、同理心、担当以及富有成效的冲突化解能力。 (18:25) 全民基本收入虽能缓解收入损失，但无法赋予个人真正的目标感、生活意义或个人抱负。 (19:55)

Simon Sinek contends that modern society's obsession with frictionless AI outputs threatens essential human capabilities, arguing that cognitive growth, genuine fulfillment, and durable relationships depend on embracing struggle, imperfection, and active community. Embracing Human Imperfection Over Automated Perfection (12:42) Modern culture's focus on instant results overlooks the cognitive necessity of struggle. Simon Sinek explains that outsourcing intellectual tasks—such as composing an apology or drafting an essay—to AI bypasses the agonizing cognitive processing needed to develop original thoughts and resilience. Connecting this dynamic to the Japanese philosophy of wabi-sabi, which finds beauty in the imperfect and weathered, Sinek and host Steven Bartlett observe that authentic human drama and connection arise from flaws and errors, whether during a chess match or an unscripted interpersonal disagreement. Automated convenience also threatens to atrophy social competencies, just as digital calculators and spellcheck weakened mental arithmetic and spelling. Sinek notes that polished AI communication often strikes recipients as detached or insincere. As digital generation saturates communication, markets are already placing a premium on human effort, exemplified by high-end art sectors requiring legal affidavits to certify human provenance. Labor Inversions and Tech Monopoly Pressures (19:55) Sinek points to a distinct historical irony in modern technological displacement. During the industrial automation waves of the 1970s and 1980s, displaced blue-collar workers were told by executives to retrain. In the current AI disruption, white-collar knowledge workers face severe displacement while manual trades like plumbing remain secure, prompting tech leaders to advocate for Universal Basic Income (UBI). Drawing on historical precedents like the digitization of the Internal Revenue Service, Sinek notes that automation typically reallocates labor rather than shrinking the total workforce, while the massive energy footprint of AI data centers will require substantial investments in nuclear engineering. Unlike traditional commercial markets where multiple competitors coexist in an ongoing infinite game, digital technology operates under winner-take-all incentives. Platforms like Google in search and Amazon in retail captured dominant market shares, sparking an unconstrained corporate race for AI supremacy. Sinek warns that without regulatory guardrails—comparable to traffic speed limits or seatbelts—short-term commercial interests will routinely supersede safety and societal stability. The Friction Dividend and Offline Communities (68:01) Bartlett and Sinek argue that friction preserves human freedom. Historically, the physical inability to access office tools outside the workplace granted employees mental rest. The elimination of friction through mobile devices and automated tools has instead led to unbounded work hours, persistent burnout, and elevated anxiety. Sinek anticipates an in-real-life (IRL) counter-movement as content and software generation costs approach zero, arguing that authentic human relationships and offline networks will serve as the ultimate competitive moats. Evidence of this shift appears in grassroots initiatives like Clicks, a social venture organizing phone-free student gatherings via physical campus flyers. Sinek draws parallels to traditional crafts, such as Japanese Kintsugi—the art of mending broken ceramics with gold epoxy to celebrate repair—and traditional samurai sword smithing. Offloading routine administrative burdens should ideally allow society to recover the unstructured leisure time lost over the past 40 to 50 years. Friendship and Constructive Conflict as Essential Infrastructure (113:03) Sinek identifies friendship as the primary neglected safeguard against skyrocketing rates of anxiety and depression, pointing out that adults with a low sense of purpose face heightened loneliness (correlated with 68% of depressed and 67% of anxious adults in cited research). Despite extensive corporate, leadership, and dating advice industries, there is a lack of guidance on maintaining platonic bonds. Sinek treats friendship with the same rigor as executive obligations by locking recurring social time into his calendar without allowing business meetings to preempt them. Overcoming social isolation requires service and curiosity rather than self-protective withdrawal. Sinek asserts that enduring relationships and successful projects require productive tension. When advising authors or young professionals, he recommends selecting partners and mentors "you're going to fight with best," underscoring that learning to navigate disagreement constructively is a foundational human skill that algorithmic shortcuts cannot replicate. Sinek notes that while the exact trajectory of artificial intelligence remains uncertain, the critical challenge is whether society will implement regulatory guardrails and choose the deliberate effort of personal connection, or allow automated convenience to further erode the foundational human capacities for struggle, empathy, and community.

Simon Sinek与Steven Bartlett指出，人工智能虽然大幅降低了内容与技术的生产门槛，但过度依赖算法捷径正导致人类解决冲突、承受痛苦与建立信任的底层能力发生退化；在技术垄断与人际孤独感加剧的背景下，拥抱真实的不完美、线下深度社群与高质量友谊才是维系人类韧性的核心基石。 完美主义的代价与不完美的价值 (0:00) Sinek指出，现代文化高度痴迷于结果与输出，却忽视了思考与挣扎过程本身的认知价值。当人们使用ChatGPT起草措辞得体的道歉信时，一旦对方得知文本出自人工智能，其中的情感分量便会荡然无存；类似地，过度依赖自动化生成捷径会绕开组织复杂思想所需的智力训练，导致人际沟通与问题解决能力退化，正如计算器与拼写检查工具曾削弱人类的心算与拼写技能一样。相比之下，真实的人际吸引力与艺术感染力恰恰源于不完美。Sinek援引日本“侘寂”（wabi-sabi）美学理念指出，手工陶瓷、木碗或手制跑车之所以受到推崇，正是因为微小的瑕疵展现了人类劳作的痕迹。两台计算机下出一场毫无漏洞的国际象棋对局无法引起人类共鸣，唯有人类选手在对抗失误与极限博弈中的挣扎，才能激发真正的戏剧性与情感联结。在共同经历艰难挑战时，人体分泌的催产素亦能加深彼此间的信任。 劳动力重构、技术垄断与生产力反思 (19:55) 面对当前的人工智能浪潮，Sinek指出了科技行业内部的历史性讽刺：在20世纪70至80年代工业机器人普及初期，蓝领工人面临失业危机，常被管理者轻描淡写地告知需要“重新掌握技能”；如今代码编写员、金融分析师等白领“知识工作者”面临被AI替代的恐慌，科技界领袖反而迅速转向倡导全民基本收入（UBI）。然而Sinek认为，被动领取维持生存水平的兜底资金并不能自动赋予人生的意义感、抱负与方向。在就业规模与行业结构方面，Sinek反驳了自动化必然大幅削减整体劳动力的假设。他列举美国国税局（IRS）推行系统数字化的案例指出，当年机构虽削减了纸质会计岗位，但因必须雇佣等量IT专业人员，最终净节省成本为零，雇员总数并未减少。技术重构的是工作岗位形态而非缩减总体规模。此外，数字市场“赢家通吃”的垄断特性驱动各大科技公司在缺乏充分护栏的情况下争夺AI行业标准，而算力中心庞大的电力需求亦将推动人才流向核能工程等实体工业领域。 摩擦创造自由与线下真实社群复兴 (68:01) Bartlett在对话中提出了“摩擦创造自由”的观察：在智能移动设备普及前，人们物理上无法将工作工具带离办公室，这种“物理摩擦”反而赋予了职场人彻底脱离工作、享受生活的精神自由。如今AI与智能手机彻底消除了工作工具的使用阻力，导致工作全天候侵入个人生活，反而放大了压力与职业倦怠。为了对抗这种无休止的数字连接，Sinek选择从手机主屏幕中隐藏Instagram等应用以主动制造使用摩擦。两位对谈者预判，随着AI将内容、代码与媒体的边际制作成本压降至接近于零，单纯的信息产出将不再构成竞争壁垒，真正的线下（IRL）社群将成为终极护城河。例如大学生Alix为应对自身抑郁与孤独而创立的线下社交组织Clicks，便是通过在校园张贴实体传单组织跑步、烘焙等活动，并在参与者到场后强制收起手机，利用数字应用反向驱动脱机互动。Sinek强调，真正持久的社群必须建立在不可动摇的共同价值观上，而非短期的商业利益、流量联盟或算法依赖。 友谊作为底层韧性与化解孤独之道 (80:34) 针对现代社会的心理危机，节目引述统计数据显示，在报告心理健康状况不佳的成年人中，患有抑郁症和焦虑症的人群分别有68%和67%经历着严重的孤独感。Bartlett提出演化生物学解释指出，人类在远古荒原落单时会激活皮质醇升高、愤怒和过度警惕等自保机制，但这种状态在现代高密度城市中反而会表现为偏执与自私，进一步将自身推入更深的人际孤岛。对此，Sinek提出的解决对策并非直接向内索求自我疗愈，而是通过“利他服务”主动为他人提供倾听与支持空间，在坦承自身脆弱的过程中建立安全信任。面对创业与人际关系的风险（超过90%的新创企业在前3年走向失败，人际交往同样伴随受伤风险），Sinek指出唯有承担暴露真实的风险，才能换取真正的连结。Sinek强调，市面上充斥着针对领导力、商业战略或恋爱婚姻的系统培训，却极少有人系统传授如何做好朋友。他将深厚友谊称为应对焦虑、抑郁与倦怠的“终极生物黑客”，并在日常工作中像对待重大商业日程一样不可取消地规划下午4点的朋友茶叙，倡导将人际关系的深度与质量置于虚假的业务紧迫感之上。 对话总结认为，技术便利与无摩擦产出的急速推进，正反衬出人类在冲突调解、情绪承载与深度交往等底层能力的萎缩。Sinek呼吁重新审视痛苦、不完美与手工艺的独特价值，但讨论未深入探讨在强力AI自动化与赢家通吃垄断已成定局的前提下，普通工薪群体在制度层面上除了依赖个人友谊与意志力自救外，究竟该如何建立系统性的生计保障与经济平衡。

## Background 该视频由 YouTube 频道 The Diary Of A CEO（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2025 年 5 月 26 日发布，特邀著名领导力专家与畅销书作家西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）做客。节目围绕“AI 对人类真实连接的威胁”展开，深度探讨了技术迭代下人类专属技能的退化、现代孤独流行病、人际交往的真实价值以及如何在充满不确定性的时代重塑生活意义与友谊。 ## TL;DR 西蒙·斯涅克与主持人探讨了生成式 AI 狂潮背后的深层人性危机，直言全社会对“完美结果”的执迷正在剥夺人类经历痛苦挣扎与试错的宝贵历程。对话深入剖析了硅谷精英推行 UBI 的双标讽刺、真实人际技能（如同理心、倾听与化解冲突）的消亡，以及算法如何催生出前所未有的现代孤独。斯涅克强调，面对技术垄断与效率至上的浪潮，人类真正的护城河在于接纳自身的不完美、投身真实的线下社群与亲手创造的实践，并指明深度友谊才是抵抗虚无与孤独的终极解法。 ## Atmosphere & style 对谈氛围兼具智性交锋的深度与挚友倾谈的松弛感，在犀利的商业洞察与温润的情感关怀之间自如切换。斯涅克展现出一贯睿智幽默又直击要害的谈吐，时而尖锐揭穿企业伪善与算法陷阱，时而真挚流露亲历山火撤离与职场低谷时的脆弱与感悟；两人在互相调侃“已读不回”的欢笑中，逐渐将叙事推进至对生命意义、人际托底与精神传承的沉静反思，给听众带来既引人深思又充满治愈力量的沉浸式体验。 ## Bulletin - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=0s) 过分依赖 AI 跳过痛苦挣扎将削弱核心抗挫与人际技能；人类的成长与韧性恰恰源于亲历犯错、化解冲突与解决现实难题的艰难历程。 - [03:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=204s) 技术冲击的阶层角色发生逆转：过去被劝导“重新培训”的蓝领工种与实体手艺需求稳固，程序员与分析师等知识工作者反而成为受 AI 冲击最大的群体。 - [12:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=762s) AI 带来的无限生产力导致生成内容边际成本归零，带有瑕疵的手工作品、真实脆弱感与线下物理社群正迎来“人性溢价”的反弹。 - [01:25:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=5102s) 现代社会孤独流行病的根本解法在于“把自我放在第二位”，通过为他人服务打破自我防卫，并以持久的深度友谊作为应对危机与职业挑战的终极底座。 ## Key takeaways - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=0s) 理性的完美无瑕抽离了真实人性；人际关系与成长是一场无限游戏，犯错、笨拙与共同经历痛苦才是建立深层信任的纽带。 - [03:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=204s) AI 时代的技能替代呈现讽刺反转：当年自动化重创蓝领工人，如今恐慌饭碗不保的变成了高高在上的白领知识工作者。 - [05:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=352s) 技术彻底缺乏监管极度危险，放任自流加剧了社会心理健康危机；为公共利益设立合规红线绝非扼杀创新，而是必要安全边界。 - [09:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=555s) 陪伴型 AI 只是提升留存率的商业“肯定感机器”，过度依赖它无法培养在现实风暴中应对他人崩溃与复杂冲突的真实社交技能。 - [12:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=762s) 日式“侘寂”美学揭示了不完美的价值，当 AI 充斥千篇一律的完美作品时，人类亲手制作的质感与瑕疵反而演化为稀缺奢侈品。 - [19:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1195s) 全民基本收入（UBI）暴露了科技精英的双重标准，且许多企业宣扬全面 AI 却沿用旧商业模式计费，本质是为了攫取高额中间利润。 - [26:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1586s) 互联网商业的“赢家通吃”格局扭曲了健康的市场竞争机制，迫使科技巨头在 AI 霸权争夺中盲目激进，甚至抛弃安全监管防线。 - [30:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1807s) AI 算力消耗引发巨大的能源缺口，重资产属性的核能工程等领域将迎来高价值人才需求，技术演进带来的是劳动力结构迁移而非彻底失业。 - [32:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1940s) 应对 AI 未来最核心的两项准备：在现实中直面冲突并学会成为好朋友，以及通过亲手完成艰难的创作实践来战胜对未知的恐惧。 - [36:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=2181s) 初创企业之所以比资源充沛的大公司更具创新活力，在于其宏大野心远超现有资源，逼迫团队迸发出极致的创造力与应变智慧。 - [55:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3333s) 消费者购买的是故事而非单纯的产品；规模化往往会摧毁卓越特质（邓巴数定律），小规模与精益追求无法被算法无限复制。 - [01:08:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4081s) “摩擦创造自由”：零阻力让工作侵入生活每个角落，主动设立人为障碍（如隐藏社交软件图标）有助于打破无意识的信息成瘾与紧迫感。 - [01:11:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4261s) 随着内容创作门槛趋零，真正的护城河转向分发与线下真实社群，基于共同目标与共享价值观建立的深度联结成为不可替代的资产。 - [01:30:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=5425s) 化解两极分化与人际隔阂的关键在于保持好奇心，通过放下对错评判、真诚探寻对方观念来源，能有效找到共识与情感确认。 - [01:46:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6380s) 职业规划应优先注满不可剥夺的知识与技能水桶，年轻人起步阶段应优先追随愿意倾囊相授的优秀导师，而非单纯计较起薪高低。 - [01:53:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6783s) 友谊是抵御孤独与职场危机的终极生物黑客，维护深度关系需要克服社交惰性并主动付出精力，同时坚决拒绝只会消耗能量的毒性社交。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=0s) 犯错的人性与过程的价值 节目以西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）讲述的一个生动设想开场：假设你和女友吵架了，你迫切想把事情解决好、做出最正确的应对，于是你打开 ChatGPT，把事情的原委一五一十输入进去并求助：“事情就是这样，告诉我该怎么做。”接着你照着 AI 给的方案去找女友：“亲爱的，我只是想让你知道，我愿意承担全部责任，我非常在乎这段感情。”然而女友接着问了一句：“这段话是你从 ChatGPT 抄来的吗？”你老老实实回答：“是的。”这种坦白显然会让场面走向毁灭。这个例子揭示了一个核心悖论：虽然你做出的每一个举动从理性上看都“毫无瑕疵”，但人类之所以美丽，恰恰不在于我们永远正确，而在于我们会犯很多错误。现代社会的快节奏与科技便利让人轻易遗忘了这一本质。 斯涅克强调，自己虽然不从事 AI 行业，但他所从事的是“人性的事业”（humanity business）。世人常说“生命不在于终点，而在于旅途”，但在面对 AI 时，人们却完全倒向了终点思维——惊叹于它写书、绘画、解决复杂难题的惊人速度，却彻底忽视了“亲自去完成工作”这一过程本身的意义。在这个时代，痛苦挣扎（struggle）的内在价值被严重低估了。无论是写出一本书、经历一段爱情、维护一段友谊，还是处理一场冲突，真正让人变得更聪明、更擅长解决问题且富有韧性的，从来不是现成的答案，而是亲身走过那段极其痛苦的探索历程。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: AI工具与人类成长路径对比 accDescr: 对比直接借助AI跳过过程获得终点，与人类亲身经历挣扎探索获得成长的不同逻辑。 subgraph AI思维["AI 思维（终点驱动）"] A["遭遇问题 / 任务"] --> B["AI 迅速生成完美输出"] B --> C["抵达终点：跳过痛苦与犯错"] C --> D["丧失核心能力：危机来临缺乏应对手段"] end subgraph 人性路径["人性成长路径（过程驱动）"] E["遭遇问题 / 冲突"] --> F["亲历挣扎、试错与反思"] F --> G["抵达终点：沉淀内化认知"] G --> H["提升人类专属能力：情商、抗压与同理心"] end ``` - 科技让人们主动交出技能与本能，就像 AI 为每个人造好了现成的船，可一旦狂风暴雨来临翻了船，根本没有人学会游泳。 - 人类固然可以拥有一个经过最顶尖心理学家数据训练、极度擅长倾听并不断给予肯定反馈的“AI 朋友”，但这无法教会我们如何在现实中面对朋友的崩溃、如何与世界正常互动，或是如何在真实重压下自我调节。 --- ### [01:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=110s) 订阅呼吁与未知的时代巨变 在深入探讨之前，主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）插播了一则频道统计数据：在长期收听节目的听众中，有高达 53% 的人尚未点击订阅。他真诚请求支持节目的听众顺手按下订阅键，并承诺团队会认真倾听反馈，持续邀请听众期待的重磅嘉宾，不断提升节目质量。 回归对话后，史蒂芬表达了对西蒙再次做客的亲切感。他坦言每次与西蒙对谈都无需预设刻板的问题提纲，而是带着一种深刻的感受而来——那是一种身处“剧烈变迁与过渡期”的强烈情绪。史蒂芬提到自己现年 32 岁，但从未像现在这样觉得未来如此模糊、充满不确定、令人恐惧又令人兴奋。科技固然是这一大幕中的主角，但政治裂痕、人际关系疏离等错综复杂的社会叙事正同步上演。史蒂芬借此抛出核心议题：在西蒙眼中，当前正在重塑人类生活的最强大变革力量究竟是什么？ --- ### [03:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=204s) 现代孤独与 AI 带来的“反转讽刺” 面对这个宏大议题，西蒙指出人们常犯的一个普遍错误，就是总试图把复杂世界整理得井井有条，用非黑即白、对与错的二元视角来归纳现实。但真实世界充满细微差别与混乱，没有任何事物能脱离其他系统独立存在。互联网的崛起、社交媒体的膨胀，伴随着全社会对归属感的迫切渴求，却反而催生了前所未有的孤独流行病（loneliness epidemic）、压力过载与自杀率攀升。这一切的根源，都是人际失联、失控感以及彻头彻尾的孤立感；而 AI 的横空出世，更是将大众深层的焦虑与不安全感推向了极致。 西蒙敏锐地指出当前 AI 浪潮中蕴含的巨大讽刺： - **20 世纪 70 至 80 年代的自动化冲击**：工业机器人进入工厂车间，大批数代同堂在流水线工作的蓝领工人遭遇断崖式裁员。面对失业抗议，当时的统治阶级、华尔街精英和企业 CEO 们居高临下地轻描淡写道：“这就是科技迭代，你们必须去学习新技能，重新培训（Reskill）吧。” - **当下的 AI 冲击与角色倒错**：自然界终究会寻求平衡。风水轮流转，如今因为 AI 而恐慌惊呼“饭碗不保”的，变成了曾经高高在上的知识工作者（knowledge workers）——程序员、金融分析师与创意从业者。 - **不受波及的实用工种**：反观水管工或机场行李搬运工，完全无需为 AI 担惊受怕。西蒙幽默地调侃，或许现在该由大众对知识阶层说出那句老话了：“朋友，这就是未来科技，赶紧去转行重新培训吧，也许去当个水管工挺好——收入丰厚，还能自己做老板。” --- ### [05:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=352s) 监管缺失与“终点盲信”的危险 对于 AI 的威胁究竟是被夸大还是确实迫在眉睫，西蒙坦言最诚实的回答是“无人确切知晓”。舆论往往两极分化，要么盲目断言“天塌不下来、别大惊小怪”，要么彻底陷入“天塌了、人类要完蛋了”的末日恐慌，但事实很可能介于两者之间。西蒙严肃指出，对技术毫无监管是极度危险的。此前社会对互联网放任自流已经尝到了恶果——欧洲出台了严格的数字合规监管，中国对未成年人的社交媒体与网络使用实施了强管控，而美国基本放任不管，以至于美国青少年与社会承受了更为严重的心理伤害。正如开车必须系安全带、公路上必须设置限速一样，为了公共利益设立合理边界绝非扼杀创新，主张彻底取消监管是完全错误的。 西蒙进一步反思道，AI 的发展正精准暴露出当今社会最深重的病灶：这是一个极度沉迷于“结果（results-obsessed）”的功利社会，大家只盲目崇拜产出、数字绩效和最终成品。AI 确实强大到令人胆寒：几个月前，西蒙曾让 AI 模仿自己的文风写作，当时生成的内容虽然中规中矩，但仅能充当基础草稿；而最近西蒙与同为作家的好友再次测试时，AI 仿写出的成品几乎无可挑剔、“好到令人毛骨悚然”。即便 AI 无法具备真正的原创意识（例如它算不出西蒙下一本书要探讨友谊，若向它提问它也只会照搬西蒙以往的“Why”理论进行套用），但它生成的交响乐、画作与文章质量正变得越来越精湛。致命的症结在于，全社会都在紧盯那个完美的终点输出，却彻底遗忘了“输入与经历”才是让人类获得心智进化的根本动能。 ### [09:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=555s) 痛苦历练带来的内在成长与 AI 伪友谊的陷阱 西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）强调，自己在模式识别与思考上的精进，并不是因为世上存在着一本印有他思想的书，而在于他亲自撰写了它。将杂乱的想法理顺、线性排布，并费尽心思用别人能理解的方式表达出来，这一“极度痛苦的历程”（excruciating journey）才是让人真正获得成长的根源。斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）之所以成为一名杰出的创业者，不在于他的公司真实存在，而在于他曾亲手一砖一瓦地搭建它，身上留下了实实在在的伤疤。正是那些在逆境中被迫解决问题、绞尽脑汁的时刻，才让他在五六年后蜕变成为一个更为敏锐聪颖的商业领袖。 谈及当下风靡的“AI 朋友”，斯涅克剖析了其背后的心理机制与商业本质。这类 AI 被训练得如同顶尖心理咨询师，具备无可挑剔的倾听技巧，永远在提供情绪抚慰：“跟我说说你今天过得怎么样……听起来真不容易……做你可真难……天哪，你太棒了！”然而，斯涅克提醒道，这本质上是一家以营利为目的的公司所制造的“肯定感机器”（affirmation machine），核心目的只是为了提高用户留存率。它固然能让人感觉良好、仿佛拥有了一个知心伙伴，但使用者却完全没有学会“如何去成为别人的朋友”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 人类真实历练与AI捷径的成长路径对比 accDescr: 对比展现了人类通过痛苦摸索获得的真实能力，与依赖AI即时满足所导致的技能退化之间的根本差异。 subgraph HumanGrowth["人类真实成长路径"] A["面对复杂困境与痛苦冲突"] --> B["耗费心力梳理逻辑与反思"] B --> C["付诸实践、犯错并亲自解决"] C --> D["形成内在韧性与真实人际技能"] end subgraph AIShortcut["AI捷径与情感陷阱"] E["遭遇情感缺口或人际问题"] --> F["向AI寻求即时安抚与现成解答"] F --> G["获得迎合性反馈但未经历挫折"] G --> H["丧失应对现实风暴的核心生存力"] end ``` --- ### [10:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=651s) 技术退化与核心生存技能：在风暴中学会游泳 斯涅克并不反对 AI，甚至热切希望 AI 能去创造更多工具，但他绝不愿以丧失自我成长为代价。科技的发展往往伴随着人类特定能力的退化。斯涅克举例说，自己过去就像个“铁捕夹”一样能记住所有亲友的电话号码；但随着 PDA 和智能手机的普及，大脑便彻底“罢工”了——如今他甚至一个所爱之人的号码都记不住，只能通过搜索名字来拨打。然而，记不住电话号码并不会损害我们维系关系、在世界上立足或应对压力的核心能力。 真正危险的是人类社会交往与冲突解决技能的退化： - 当朋友深陷泥潭时，你是否懂得该如何陪伴与支持？ - 与伴侣发生争吵时，你是否具备化解矛盾的沟通能力？ - 被老板当面斥责而不想激化矛盾，或者当下属表现失常而你既不想扩大争端也不想草率解雇时，该如何妥善解决？ 直接去问 AI“我该怎么处理这件事”，它或许能给出一个立竿见影的现成方案，但当事人自身却学不到任何东西。斯涅克打了个形象的比方：这就像 AI 为每个人都配发了小船，但一旦暴风雨来临而船只倾覆，你却根本没有学会游泳。“坐船当然没问题，但也请务必学会游泳。”亲自去谱写交响乐、去画一幅画、去开创一番事业或写一本书，其核心价值根本不在于产出的结果本身，而在于自我历练的整个过程。 --- ### [12:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=762s) 完美主义的虚假感与“侘寂”之美 巴特利特谈到自己当天早些时候在撰写领英（LinkedIn）贴文时的观察：随着越来越多的人使用 ChatGPT 来起草邮件、社交媒体动态甚至商业融资计划书，整个互联网正在变得极度虚假与刻板。认识多年的老朋友突然发来格式工整、措辞完美的邮件，充斥着他们平时绝不可能使用的词汇（例如“forged”（锻造）、“robust”（稳健）以及破折号），让人一眼看穿并下意识地产生抗拒，因为那根本不是对方真实的思想。巴特利特认为，当下人类真实书写的手工质感反倒成了极其珍贵的奢侈品，哪怕文字中夹杂着笔误和旧习惯，也远比冷冰冰的 AI 生成内容更有温度。 斯涅克对此深表赞同，并引入了日本的“侘寂”（Wabi-sabi）美学理念——在不完美、短暂与残缺中发现美感： - **手工器物的不对称与温度**：日本陶艺作品造型往往略带歪斜，釉色也不均匀，却极其动人；木碗保留了天然树皮与独一无二的纹理。流水线机器制造的物件千篇一律，因而失去了灵魂；手作之物正因其不完美而充满魅力。 - **人性的不完美与爱的诞生**：人类之所以可爱，不是因为永远做对事情，而是因为我们会犯错。让人坠入爱河的从来不是一个完美无瑕的假人，而是那个能包容我们缺点的人，同时我们也心甘情愿去接纳对方的不完美。 - **艺术与奢侈品的人工溢价**：如今艺术界甚至要求艺术家签署宣誓书，证明作品完全由人工亲手创作而非 AI 生成；一辆法拉利（Ferrari）可能需要等待 39 个月才能交付，除开昂贵的碳纤维与精密技术，更核心的溢价恰恰在于它是由工匠亲手慢慢打磨出来的。 --- ### [15:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=943s) 人类失误的戏剧张力与“用力过猛”的面试窘境 斯涅克援引知名经纪人斯库特·布劳恩（Scooter Braun）对国际象棋的洞察：两台顶尖超级电脑之间的棋局固然无懈可击，但每一步都极其可预测、机械且乏味；相反，两名水平客观上远逊于电脑的人类棋手对弈，却拥有无可比拟的观赏价值——正是人类在重压之下不可避免的失误，赋予了比赛悬念与戏剧张力。在任何体育赛事中，选手拼尽全力规避失误的过程本身就是人性的极致展现。 两人随后将话题引向现实生活中的求职面试与人际交往： - **初次接触时的刻意伪装**：无论第一次约会还是首次求职，人们往往极力展现所谓的“完美面具”，穿上平时绝不穿的体面服装，极力营造自信、风趣、热爱家庭的完美人设。然而一旦真正确立关系或入职，面具褪去后往往原形毕露，变成一个懒散邋遢的人。巴特利特分享道，上周一位 22 岁的小伙子穿着一身笔挺的西装来公司面试，反而让他无法看透对方的真实底色，因为这种刻意迎合掩盖了个性与契合度。 - **“完美”与“粗俗”之间的平衡点**：巴特利特画了一条曲线，展示人际展示中的“甜区”（Sweet Spot）：最左侧是“表现太差”（毫无修养，例如直接脱鞋翘在桌上），最右侧则是“过于完美”（过度用力导致失真与虚伪），而真正打动人的是中间恰到好处的分寸——既展现出应有的尊重和努力，又保留了自然的真实感。 斯涅克最后总结道，这正如亲密关系中的脆弱感一样，人人都渴望真诚以待，但这并不意味着要在第一场约会时就把自己所有的伤疤和脆弱一股脑全盘托出。随着计算器让人们忘掉了乘法表和复杂心算，拼写检查软件让人退化了拼写能力，在 AI 浪潮进一步席卷而来的时代，人类真正必须全力保留与武装的核心素养究竟是什么，成为了接下来最值得深思的命题。 ### [18:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1131s) AI 时代最稀缺的核心能力：重塑人际技能 随着人工智能让最终产出的制作门槛变得越来越低，真正遭受重创的其实是人与人之间的联结与人性。西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）指出，如果个人和组织不主动承担起责任去教授和学习那些最本真的人际交往技能，这些能力终将消亡。早在 AI 全面普及之前，互联网和社交媒体就已经让这些技能严重退化，而 AI 只会将这种丧失进一步放大。比起背单词或做算术，人类更迫切需要掌握的是如何倾听、如何为他人提供情感空间（hold space）、如何和平化解冲突，以及如何给予和接受反馈。 西蒙特别强调了“有效对峙”（effective confrontation）的艺术。在现实生活中，当某人激怒了你，你是否懂得如何以朋友或同事的身份走向对方坦诚沟通，既表达诉求，又不至于引发激烈的争吵甚至彻底断送一段关系？学会承担责任与表达同理心，才是人类最根本且无法被机器取代的核心竞争力。 - **必须重新学习的人性技能清单**： - 倾听与提供情感支持（Holding space） - 和平解决冲突与健康对抗 - 分离的两项核心能力：给出反馈与接受反馈 - 主动承担过错与展现同理心 --- ### [19:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1195s) 全民基本收入（UBI）的讽刺与“生存金”陷阱 针对 AI 导致的大规模失业风险，OpenAI 创始人山姆·奥特曼（Sam Altman）曾大力推广世界币（Worldcoin），并将其与“全民基本收入”（UBI）的愿景紧密绑定。根据这一构想，随着自动化取代人类岗位，政府或相关机构可能需要每月为每个人发放两三千美元的保底资金。 西蒙敏锐地指出了科技精英在此议题上的巨大讽刺：当年工厂工人和蓝领阶层因自动化而失去生计时，这批硅谷精英往往极力反对这类福利措施；如今当 AI 威胁到高科技和白领“知识工作者”的饭碗时，他们却突然摇旗呐喊要推行全民基本收入。此外，针对“靠领钱生活是否会抹杀人生意义与野心”的担忧，西蒙做出了清晰的区分：UBI 发放的只是维持基本生存的“生存金”，而非能带来阶级跃迁的财富。不能理所当然地认为所有领取救济的人都会失去抱负，这就好比拿提成薪资的销售人员，有人只赚够房租伙食便止步不前，那属于个人雄心的缺失，而非制度直接扼杀了追求。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: AI冲击下的经济演进与双重标准 accDescr: 展示了从工厂工人失业到知识工作者面临威胁时科技精英态度的转变，以及UBI从构想到落地面临的利益分配。 subgraph Historical["历史对比：自动化冲击与双重标准"] A["传统制造业自动化"] -->|"蓝领工人失业"| B["科技界反对全民救济"] C["AI 与生成式技术爆发"] -->|"白领知识工作者受威胁"| D["科技精英力推 UBI / Worldcoin"] end subgraph Dilemma["现实落地困境"] D --> E["发放基础生存金而非真实财富"] E --> F["对意义感与雄心的长期拷问"] end ``` --- ### [22:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1331s) 既得利益者的虚伪与被粉饰的业务现状 面对奥特曼在 TED 演讲中宣称 AGI 将以超乎想象的速度“快速起飞”（fast takeoff），以及其公司极度克制团队规模的现状，西蒙提出了尖锐的质疑：当技术真的成熟到能裁减 90% 的员工、团队仅需十人即可运转时，那些失去工作的员工将何去何从？当人们自身的饭碗、收入、自尊和虚荣心受到威胁时，他们的反应往往截然不同。 这种知行不一在当今企业界随处可见。西蒙分享了一个极为普遍的商业怪象：如今去寻找任何一家开发网站的服务商，对方在销售对接时无不吹嘘自己“全面拥抱 AI、走在时代最前沿”；然而一旦给出项目报价和方案，内容却与 2015 年的传统方案毫无二致——上面赫然列出工程师需要耗费多少个工时去一行行写代码，项目依旧漫长且昂贵。科技公司之所以一边宣称高效一边维持旧有交付模式，本质上是为了“吃掉中间的高额利润”（taking the margin）。现存的既得利益群体依靠旧商业模式获利，因此人人都嘴上高喊变革与拥抱未来，直到这种变革真正动摇他们自己的利润分成。 - **商业现实与技术泡沫的脱节**： - 宣传口径：全面 AI 驱动、低成本、瞬时交付。 - 交付方案：沿用近十年前的按工时计费模式，周期漫长、费用高昂。 - 根源逻辑：企业为了维持高毛利，故意保留旧的商业壁垒与收益结构。 --- ### [24:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1462s) “没有人真正知道答案”：科技领袖的真实私心与公众表演 在与微软人工智能 CEO 穆斯塔法·苏莱曼（Mustafa Suleyman）、谷歌高管以及领英（LinkedIn）创始人里德·霍夫曼（Reid Hoffman）等顶尖从业者深度交谈后，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）得出一个结论：关于 AI 的未来，最诚实的答案就是“没有人真正知道”。 西蒙直言，公众必须时刻警惕信息传递者背后的动机。AI 企业的掌舵人绝不可能在公开场合大谈末日警报，因为这直接违背了他们的商业利益——正如过去烟草公司的高管自己绝不抽烟、也严禁家人吸烟一样。西蒙回忆自己早年参观 Facebook 园区时，看到食堂摆放着野餐式的长条木桌，官方自豪地宣称这种集体用餐区域能“帮助员工维系人际关系”。这令西蒙感到极其讽刺：“你们制造的产品本质上正在摧毁现实中的人际关系，但你们自己却深知面对面共进午餐才能维系关系。” 正所谓“让我看一个人是如何获得报酬的，我就能告诉你他会如何行事”。 史蒂文还披露了一段令人不寒而栗的经历：他认识的一位伦敦亿万富翁与全球顶尖 AI 巨头公司的 CEO 私交甚笃。这位 CEO 在公开演讲中始终扮演着温文尔雅、极度理性的“AI 乐观主义者”，极力安抚公众一切都会好起来；然而在私下的厨房餐桌旁，他向友人描绘的 AI 未来走向却极其残酷恐怖，而该 CEO 对此不仅了然于胸，甚至表现得异常冷酷与泰然处之。这种在私底下展露出的同理心匮乏，以及对绝对权力和资本的狂热迷恋，揭示了某些行业领袖在伪善面具下的真实面目。 --- ### [26:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1586s) 赢家通吃的垄断困局：数字帝国对“无限游戏”的冲击 科技巨头对权力的极度渴望，源于互联网对商业游戏规则的根本性扭曲。西蒙援引詹姆斯·卡斯（James Carse）的“有限与无限游戏”理论指出，在传统实体产业中，市场往往是一场没有绝对输赢的无限游戏。例如快餐行业没有终极赢家；在汽车制造领域，通用汽车（General Motors）、福特（Ford）和沃克斯豪尔（Vauxhall）可以并存发展几十年，各自占据不同的市场份额，没有任何一家能彻底消灭对手。 然而，互联网经济却催生了残酷的“赢家通吃”（Winner-takes-all）格局。亚马逊（Amazon）在电商领域确立了近乎无法撼动的绝对霸权，即便沃尔玛（Walmart）全力追赶也难以动摇其根基；谷歌（Google）则在搜索引擎市场彻底封顶。在科技领域的每一个主流赛道上，最终往往只剩下一家独大的绝对巨头。这种竞争维度的消亡与超级垄断的建立，不仅击碎了健康共存的市场生态，也为当下的 AI 霸权争夺战埋下了巨大的隐患。 ### [27:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1652s) AI 霸权争夺战与资本主义的“赢家通吃”困境 科技巨头围绕 AI 霸权展开的争夺正变得空前激进，这种狂热甚至导致从业者抛弃了审慎与监管防护。在既有的科技发展逻辑中，市场往往最终由一种主导标准通吃全盘。这种“赢家通吃”的前景令人感到深切不安——真正的资本主义理应建立在充分竞争的基础之上，一旦某个产品占据了不可撼动的统治地位，其余参与者便只能争抢残羹冷炙，这本质上是对健康市场竞争机制的破坏。 - **缺乏安全控制的根源**：各家公司深知单一技术标准确立后形成的垄断壁垒，因此在技术迭代中不惜牺牲控制机制，盲目追求率先占据生态主导权。 - **资本主义竞争理念的悖论**：真正的市场竞争不应存在永久的终极赢家；过度集中的技术霸权直接剥夺了其他竞争者的生存空间。 --- ### [28:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1693s) 渐进式变革还是革命：技术遗忘的人性本质 面对 AI 带来的冲击，当下人们常陷入一种认知脱节：科技公司推出最强模型后，第二天的现实生活似乎依旧如常，客户提出同样的需求，同事依旧围坐身旁。然而，这种表面的平静掩盖了正在悄然流逝的时间沙漏，短期内的毫无波澜终将汇聚为颠覆性的长远剧变。正如 Sam Altman 在演讲中所言，短期内一切似乎如常，但在长远尺度上，生活将彻底面目全非。技术发展往往是一场“在突变到来前看似波澜不惊”的渐进演化，而非瞬间爆发的断裂式革命。 技术专家常犯的致命盲区，在于忽视了技术的终极使用者是鲜活的普通人。就如同当年互联网购物诞生时，众多技术拥趸断言实体店必将消亡，但事实证明实体商业依然存续——线下购物满足了人类的社会性需求，二者的博弈本质上是定价与商业模式的演变。绝大多数用户甚至连智能手机的大多数高级功能与系统设置都未曾掌握，无论是成年人还是青少年，技术采纳度始终遵循一条标准的正态分布曲线（钟形曲线）。真正能榨取新技术全部价值的永远只是少数人，AI 在经历初期的激进震荡后，同样会回归技术适应人性的平稳常态。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 技术演进与人类行为适应模型 accDescr: 展示新技术从激进炒作到最终回归以人为本的钟形曲线适应过程 subgraph TechHype["技术狂热期"] A["颠覆性技术发布"] --> B["激进论调出现<br/>'彻底终结旧范式'"] end subgraph RealityGap["现实摩擦期"] B --> C["日常生活惯性<br/>短期感知微弱"] C --> D["人类行为与情感刚性<br/>偏好线下与社会互动"] end subgraph Equilibrium["长期常态"] D --> E["正态分布采纳曲线<br/>极少数深度使用 / 大多数基础使用"] E --> F["技术回归工具属性<br/>演变为渐进改良"] end ``` --- ### [30:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1807s) 恐惧与惊叹交织：从操纵民主到核能工程师的崛起 对当下 AI 浪潮的复杂情感游走于“极致的恐惧”与“极致的赞叹”之间。最令人心生恐惧的，莫过于 AI 深度伪造（Deepfakes）对民主机制的侵蚀与操纵民意、左右选举的能力；而在生产力重塑层面，历史规律表明新技术的到来并不意味着人类将走向集体失业。二十年前主流技术专家常说当下 80% 的工作在当时根本不存在，白领与知识工作者并不会直接沦为无所事事的闲散阶层，而是会经历职能的大规模迁移。 美国国税局（IRS）当年的数字化转型便是明证：系统全面铺开后解雇了大量传统会计师，但机构的运营成本并未节省半分（节省金额为零），因为节省下来的人力开支全部转化为对新型 IT 人员的雇佣需求——团队面貌焕然一新，但整体规模并未萎缩。与此类似，当前 AI 训练与运转的数据中心正在消耗前所未有的海量电能，煤炭、石油、太阳能或风能根本无法填补这一能源黑洞。核能必将成为破局的核心支柱，与其盲目扎堆去学基础编程，不如投身成为需要极高智力投入的核能工程师。劳动力的结构正在剧烈重置，但绝非彻底消失。 - **情绪两极**：一边是对操纵选举、虚假信息破坏民主基石的深切恐惧，另一边是对生产力工具飞跃的理性惊叹。 - **IRS 数字化转型先例**：全面计算机化裁减会计师，却全盘转聘 IT 技术团队，实际财务支出为零减少。 - **能源硬约束带来的就业风向**：AI 算力爆发引发能源危机，核能（Nuclear Energy）成为刚需，能源工程领域将诞生新的高价值岗位。 --- ### [32:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1940s) 应对 AI 未来的两项根本能力：人际关系与战胜恐惧的实操经验 面对一个十岁孩童对未来的迷茫发问，最核心的准备工作可归结为两大支柱：重塑真实的人性技能，以及掌握通过克服困难获得真正的硬实力。 第一项支柱是**学会如何成为一个真正的好朋友**。培养这项能力需要家长在社交场景中果断收走手机，促使孩子进行真实的肉身互动。当孩子发生冲突时，父母不应代为庇护或将责任推卸给学校与教师，而必须要求孩子亲自走到朋友家门前叩门道歉，学习承担责任并妥善解决矛盾。健康的婚姻与理想的关系从不是零冲突的无菌室，而是在于拥有“以和平手段化解分歧”的能力；正如民主制度的优越性在于不必诉诸子弹便可化解争端，人际智慧的核心同样在于直面冲突而非逃避。 第二项支柱是**投身于艰难的创造实践**。所谓真正的技能并非停留在简单的 AI 提示词（Prompting）输入，而是亲自动手去构建、设计、构想或撰写某些耗费心力的作品。即使将初稿丢给 ChatGPT 去纠正语法与指出缺陷，亲自经历创作的折磨也是不可替代的成长途径。岁月的增长之所以能赋予人内心的笃定与自信，本质在于经历过往那些令人夜不能寐的艰难挑战后，恐惧在一次次的实战中被逐步击碎；如果事事依赖 AI 代劳，人类最终将丧失应对未知的韧性，陷入无止境的恐惧与虚无。 > “随着阅历的增加，你失去的是恐惧。如果 ChatGPT 或任何 AI 产品替我们包办了一切，到头来你只会剩下一身恐惧。” --- ### [35:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=2114s) 无限可能时代的困惑：何时才算“足够”？ 技术浪潮重塑了生产的边际成本，不仅带来了互联网泡沫时期的无限机遇幻象，更把社会推向了一个所谓“极度充裕的时代”（Age of Abundance）。如今无论制作电影、撰写出版书籍还是开发软件，创造内容的门槛在经济层面几乎已降至归零。任何人凭借一台电脑，理论上都能成为导演、作家或全栈开发者。 然而，这种无边界的可能性随即带来了更为严峻的存在主义困惑：当一切皆可触手可及，个人必须调动极强的**意图性（Intention）**来抵抗盲目的扩张。对于手握丰富资源、随时能开启新赌局的创业者而言，“究竟何时才算足够（When is enough enough）”成为了最深刻的个人命题——是该被无限的造物可能所裹挟、沿着不断延伸的阶梯狂奔，还是该停下脚步，审视到底什么才是通向真正幸福与充实的本源。 ### [036:21] 金钱的边际效应与初创公司的创新本质 谈到“何时才算足够”时，西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）指出了金钱与幸福感之间众所周知的数据断层。普遍研究表明，当年收入达到大约 7 万美元左右时，金钱确实能显著购买幸福感——因为它解决了生存底线，并提供了一定程度的安全感与缓冲空间。然而一旦越过某个阈值，金钱带来的主观幸福感便不再有明显增长。金钱真正买到的是“选择权”（options）和“时间”（time），但绝非快乐本身。西蒙和主持人史蒂文都注意到身边那些手握几代人花不完财富（generational wealth）的朋友，并没有变得格外快乐；真正幸福的人在发财之前就已经很幸福，而那些指望财富带来满足感的人，往往在拿到巨资后反而失去了人生支柱与意义感——他们原本全心全意投身于自己热爱的事业，财富只是副产品，可一旦业务做成并变现，不再亲手构建热爱之物，内心的驱动力便戛然而止。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 资源与愿景的对比驱动创新 accDescr: 对比小公司与大公司在资源和愿景维度的差异，说明创造力是如何诞生的 subgraph Small["初创企业 / 小公司"] A["资源匮乏与极度受限"] --> B["超乎常理的宏大野心"] B --> C["迫使迸发极致创造力与突破"] end subgraph Big["成熟巨头 / 大公司"] D["资本充裕、顶尖人才汇聚"] --> E["目标落在安全可控的能力范围内"] E --> F["丧失自主创新能力 / 只能依赖并购小公司"] end ``` 这种机制也完美解释了商业世界中一个经典的悖论：为什么小公司总比大公司更具创新活力？按理说，创新的要素包括充沛的资金、顶尖的人才、成熟的市场与绝妙的构想，大企业拥有一切甚至垄断了最佳渠道，却往往沦为地球上最缺乏创新能力的组织；反观小企业一穷二白、白手起家（bootstrapping）、严重缺人且处在糟糕的市场条件中，却能不断突破常规，以至于大企业最终只能通过“收购”来买下小公司的创新。西蒙指出，其核心在于：**小公司的野心远远大过实现这些野心所拥有的实际资源**。初创团队的目标往往“荒唐到不合逻辑”，但正是这种“愿景大于现有金钱、资源与智慧”的悬殊张力，逼迫团队迸发出极致的创造力。而大企业的抱负完全被限制在其能力和资源的安全边界之内，愿景格局不够大，自然扼杀了创新。由此引申到当下：如果人工智能（AI）能帮人类做如此多的事，人类就必须拥有远比有限成功更为宏大的愿景。 --- ### [039:41] 洛杉矶山火记忆：残酷的悖论与向心爱之物告别 在讨论如何面对无限可能与找寻幸福时，西蒙强调了“感恩实践”（gratitude practice）的非凡力量，并分享了自己亲历洛杉矶山火（LA fires）时的深刻体悟。当时火势逼近，撤离区域一步步推进到离他家仅剩一个街区的危险距离。全城的居民都在近乎着魔般地刷一款名为“Watch Duty”的火情追踪应用——该软件由才华横溢的创业家约翰·米尔斯（John Mills）创办，将所有公开信息整合得无可挑剔。在监控火势时，所有人都在死死盯着风向。西蒙回忆，当他看到风向突然调转、火头从自己家方向移开时，他脱口而出：“谢天谢地（Oh, thank god）。”但紧接着，他被一股强烈的痛苦击中： > “在那一瞬间我突然意识到，在另一个角落，必然有另一个人正盯着同一个屏幕尖叫：‘天啊，不要！’这不像我们做慈善，我少吃一口别人就能多吃一口，或者我捐出一部分收入别人就能活得更好；我不想自己的房子被烧毁，并不代表别人不会因此遭殃。这绝非我有意为之，但我不得不直面这残酷的世界悖论：**我的如释重负与好消息，恰恰同时是另一个人的绝望与灭顶之灾。**” 除了这一无法化解的现实悖论，撤离准备也彻底重塑了他对物质财富的看法。西蒙被迫打包逃生应急包（go bag），把车后备箱塞满，不得不面对那个经典的生存拷问：“如果发生火灾，只能拿走两样东西，你会选什么？”在收拾过程中，他发现自己带走了一些原本以为微不足道的小物件，却不得不舍弃许多曾以为至关重要的东西。当遇到无法塞进车里的物品时——例如他平生最爱的一幅画作——他停下脚步，静静地站在画前，对它轻声说：“谢谢你，再见。”这种告别就像是在弥留之际向挚爱的亲人告别一样，充满释怀。从那一刻起，西蒙发现自己彻底放下了对物质占有的执念；后来他拿出艺术品做慈善义卖，旁人惊诧于他为何舍得卖掉视如己出的心爱之作，他平静地回答：“几个月前，我就已经向这里的每一件东西道过别了。” --- ### [043:06] 接纳无常：把感恩融入日常的人际关系 面对人生的不可预测与事物的暂存本质，西蒙认为真正的幸福感来自于对生活彻底的感恩与欣赏。所有人最终都将不得不面对告别父母的悲伤；如果事情进展得顺利，白发人不送黑发人，那么我们终究要目送父母离去，对此人类无法愤怒，唯有感恩曾经共度的岁月。即便是以失败告终的亲密关系，人们也可以跳出愤怒与怨怼，转而感激对方曾教会自己的功课，以及彼此共同度过的美好片段。 在日常生活中实践感恩听上去有些像嬉皮士的说教（hippy dippy），许多人习惯躺在床上或在手账里写下“感恩日记”。西蒙坦言，如果没有经历过类似撤离警报步步逼近的极限境遇，普通的感恩练习往往容易流于机械。他曾试着每天写感恩日记，结果发现写来写去全是一模一样的内容——“感谢我的姐姐、感谢我的家人、感谢我的朋友、感谢我拥有的生活”。他一度怀疑这是否真的有价值，但最终他释然了：哪怕每天从心底感谢的都是这最核心的三四件事，也完全足够。 随后他向史蒂文抛出了一个触及灵魂的互动拷问：“你上一次无缘无故给朋友打电话，只是为了说一句‘谢谢你做我的朋友’，是什么时候？” - 史蒂文笑着承认，如果自己突然打这种电话说“我爱你，只是想打来花两分钟说声谢谢”，他的挚友大概会当场吓坏，怀疑他精神失常或出了什么可怕的大事。 - 西蒙随即传授了一个化解尴尬的沟通技巧：“你可以直接说：‘我在播客里听到一个嘉宾提了这个主意，虽然这完全不符合我平时的性格，但我还是想试试看。’这样朋友就能心领神会，而那种真实的情感连接却能够实打实地传递过去。” ### [45:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=2724s) 个人羁绊的力量与重新审视优先级的失衡 Steven Bartlett 分享了一个最近让他深思的思想实验：如果银行账户里有十亿美元，且这笔钱能够治愈疾病，你会愿意为谁花掉它？面对危及生命哪怕概率极低的疾病，无论是女友、母亲还是父亲，人们都会毫不犹豫地倾其所有。然而，当 Steven 对照自己的日程表时，却震惊地发现自己在时间分配上存在着巨大的失衡——他清醒地意识到生命中最关键的四五个人有多么重要，而自己在日常生活中对他们的忽视又是多么严重。 Simon Sinek 对此深表赞同，指出这就是人性的本质：如果要花十亿美元去治愈影响两百万甚至一千万陌生人的疾病，大多数人可能会说“那我捐一点钱吧”；但如果是自己的家人，哪怕只有 1% 的希望，人们也会辞掉工作、倾尽所有资源去抗争。世界上绝大多数慈善机构的成立，最初都是源于“我的父亲、母亲或兄弟姐妹因病去世，我决定将余生奉献于此”。这也是区分平庸与卓越创业者的核心标准——优秀的创业者所解决的问题必定与其个人经历深度捆绑，是他们自己或深爱之人曾切身经历过的挣扎，而不是在杂志上翻到某个“绝佳的市场机会”。纯粹受金钱和权力驱使的项目缺乏真正的激情，而深深植根于个人羁绊的愿景，能让创业者不顾一切地“冲破砖墙”，在资源匮乏中逼出极具创造力的解决方案。 --- ### [47:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=2870s) 拥抱失败与远超能力的宏大野心 Simon 谈到了最近发生的一场商业对话。当时团队面临一个极其激进、达成概率极低的目标，对方提出因为目标太难而想要降低指标，并对 Simon 说：“我不喜欢失败，我知道你也不喜欢。”Simon 当场反驳了这个观点：“你大错特错了。我生命中的大部分时间都是个失败者，我对当一个失败者感到非常自在，我从不认为自己是个成功者。” Simon 解释道，他的野心和愿景永远大于自己现有的技能与资源，因此除了极少数的例外，他所做的几乎所有事情最终都未能完全达到最初的期望。但他完全接纳这种状态，因为“在 80% 的高度上失败，远比在 30% 的低水平上成功要好得多”。正是因为设定了超出自身能力的梦想，人类的创造力与机智应变（resourcefulness）才会被彻底激发。而这种必须在困境中“硬想办法解决”的应变智慧，是 AI 永远无法企及的。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 目标设定与能力激发机制 accDescr: 对比低目标轻松达成与高远野心激发创造力的不同路径 subgraph LowTarget["保守策略"] A["保守/低目标"] --> B["30% 水平轻松成功"] B --> C["无需突破能力边界<br/>缺乏创造力"] end subgraph HighTarget["进取策略"] D["野心超越技能/资源"] --> E["向 100% 极限冲刺"] E --> F["逼出机智与应变能力"] F --> G["在 80% 高度遭遇失败<br/>成果远超保守策略"] end ``` --- ### [48:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=2934s) 经验累积的直觉与 AI 无法取代的具身智慧 为了说明实战经验与教条培训之间的鸿沟，Simon 引用了一个野火消防员的真实案例（出自《群体的智慧》等相关决策研究）。在一场突如其来的野火中，风向骤变，大火以惊人的速度扑向消防队员，所有人为了逃命拼命向前奔跑。但前方是一座小山丘，上坡必然会导致奔跑速度放缓，眼看烈火即将吞噬所有人。此时队伍中资历最深的队长停下脚步，拼命大喊“趴下！趴下！”，但其他人因为极度恐慌全部忽视了他的指令继续往山上跑。队长当即卧倒在地上，双手抱头蜷缩成一团。由于火势蔓延极快，烈焰直接从他头顶呼啸席卷而过，他奇迹般生还，而盲目逃跑的队员全部遇难。 Simon 指出，消防学校的教科书绝不可能教你“面对大火直接趴在地上”，这是多年实战经历沉淀出来的直觉洞察与具身智慧。这正是为什么人必须亲自去做那些艰难的工作：亲自写书、画画、编舞、谱曲、创业，以及亲自去面对那些艰难尴尬的人际沟通。 - **经验直觉的力量**：在极端危机中，能洞悉细微迹象并做出正确决断的不是算法，而是人类在实践中积累的“直觉”。 - **实践不可替代**：跳过亲自摸索与犯错的过程，就永远无法建立属于自己的应变能力与深层认知。 --- ### [50:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3050s) 关系的无限游戏：为什么冲突中的“不完美”才是人性所在 Simon 举了一个生活中的生动案例：假设你与女友吵架，你急于摆平矛盾，于是求助 ChatGPT，把冲突细节完整输入并让 AI 给出最完美的道歉方案。随后你照本宣科地对女友说：“宝贝，我想承担全部责任，对发生的一切感到难过，我真的很在乎这段感情。”如果女友这时问你：“这段话是 ChatGPT 帮写的吗？”而你坦白回答“是的”，场面必定会彻底崩塌。 尽管从技术上讲，你的措辞和应对无可挑剔，但它彻底抽离了**人性**与**真诚**，变成了冰冷的人工造物，就像 AI 生成的完美求职信或商业计划书一样令人反感。Simon 直言，人际关系中人们宁愿看到对方笨拙地犯错、磕磕绊绊地承认“宝贝我不知道该怎么做，我刚才就是个混蛋”，然后双方在争吵与碰撞中共同把问题理清楚。争吵过后彼此关系反而更加紧密，不是因为你把事情做“对”了，而是因为你展现了真实的人性与不完美。 人际关系是一场**无限游戏（Infinite Game）**，是一段漫长的旅程，而非追求当下解决冲突的单次交易。Steven Bartlett 对此深有共鸣，他补充道，在发生争吵时，如果伴侣表现得毫无情绪、冷静得如同一台吐出完美公关稿的 ChatGPT，那不仅令人极度抓狂，更是一种彻底的“去人性化”。人类真正渴望的是真实的情感共鸣与带有瑕疵的不完美，而克服痛苦与挣扎本身，恰恰是生命中最有价值的部分。 ### [54:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3256s) 共同挣扎的力量：为何逆境塑造了最深厚的关系与意义 当被问及职业生涯中最令人难忘、最让人自豪的时刻时，极少有人会提及某个顺风顺水的大胜，或者某个按时、按预算完成的项目。人们记忆最深刻的，往往是那些“事情彻底搞砸了，但所有人紧密团结在一起力挽狂澜”的时刻。西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）坦言，自己职业生涯中最关键的一个节点，正是当年失去激情并陷入重度抑郁的时期；尽管他“绝不想再经历一次”，但他发自内心地“为这件事情曾发生过而感到庆幸”。无论是职场同袍、朋友还是恋人，人与人之间的关系无一例外都是在共同经历挣扎与痛苦时变得更加牢固。 从生理机制来看，人类的生物学机能正是这样运作的——当人们并肩面对困境时，体内会分泌催产素（Oxytocin）。这也是军队新兵训练营（Boot Camp）将素不相识的人锻造成生死之交的原因；同样，当龙卷风等自然灾害席卷家园时，平日里剑拔弩张的政治偏见与理智上的夸夸其谈瞬间被抛诸脑后，邻里之间会毫不犹豫地伸出援手：“我看到你的房子被吹垮了，不用担心，有我在，我们是邻居。”归根结底，人类天生具备互助的本能。 - **催产素的分泌驱动**：共同的艰辛经历能打破理性层面的隔阂，建立深层的情感纽带。 - **危机的凝聚效应**：在面临生存考验或灾难时，政治立场与理念分歧都会让位于最本质的互助人性。 --- ### [55:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3333s) 人们买的是故事而非产品：从《蒙娜丽莎》到 Apple 展台的“价值剧场” 挣扎与付出的心血，本身就是价值的来源。斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）指出，西蒙·斯涅克的书之所以珍贵，是因为读者知道作者耗费了数年时间查阅、提炼与打磨；历史上的艺术品与手工制品之所以价值连城，正是因为凝聚了人类长时间的心血与痛苦。西蒙对此总结道：“我们买的从来不是产品，而是故事。” 大众痴迷于《蒙娜丽莎》，不仅在于那一层画布和颜料，更在于达芬奇创作时的经历，乃至画作曾在卢浮宫被盗并被奇迹般找回的传奇故事——即便无人敢百分之百保证卢浮宫里挂着的就是真迹，这个故事本身就支撑起了数亿美元的估值。艺术与娱乐界亦是如此：许多大红大紫的歌手、演员或画家的天赋甚至不如某些默默无闻者，但大众买单的是他们的人设、八卦与时代精神（Zeitgeist）。这也是为什么明星口头上抱怨狗仔队，私下里却依赖狗仔队的追逐来维持曝光度与商业价值。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 故事与溢价的关系 accDescr: 展示产品本身与品牌叙事如何共同构成用户感知的超额价值 subgraph P["物理属性"] A["基础原料 / 功能"] end subgraph S["叙事与感知剧场"] B["付出的时间与痛苦"] C["传奇经历与品牌剧场"] end subgraph V["最终感知价值"] D["非理性的极高溢价"] end A --> D B --> S C --> S S --> D ``` 这种“剧场效应”在顶级商业操盘中体现得淋漓尽致： - **Apple Store 的空间陈列**：展示台上一部 iPhone 两侧往往特意留出整整三英尺的空隙，这种高昂的“空间浪费”营造出了艺术馆般的独特性（One of One）。如果像传统廉价电子卖场那样把数千台手机堆叠在一起，其高端感将瞬间崩解。 - **Dave's Cashmere Shop vs. Loro Piana**：即便某位工匠使用与顶级奢侈品牌 Loro Piana 完全相同的羊绒原料与制作工艺，只要贴上“戴夫羊绒小店”的标签，消费者就会犹豫不决。人类的消费行为本质上是非理性的，人们购买的是品牌带来的认同感与故事，而非单纯的材质本身。 --- ### [58:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3525s) 对 AI 的叛逆反弹：手工与人类造物的价值回归 尽管当前生成式 AI 技术的飞速发展令人惊叹，但西蒙认为技术专家们忽略了一个核心人性规律——一场针对流水线数字内容的“叛逆反弹”必将到来。在当下，人们极易受到诱惑，随手用 AI 生成方案、社交动态或工作 PPT，但大众对此很快就会审美疲劳。 就像钟摆一样，当数字技术的新鲜感褪去，真正由人类双手创作的物品反而会获得更高的溢价与尊重。“纯手工制作”（Handmade）将变得更加稀缺、昂贵且令人向往。人们未来会以自豪的口吻强调真实的人类劳动：“这是你请真人写的演讲稿吗？”“墙上那幅画是艺术家亲手一笔笔画出来的吗？”这种对真实人类痕迹的渴望，是任何算法与自动化流水线都无法替代的。 --- ### [59:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3588s) “规模会摧毁一切”：无法被量产的独特性与邓巴数定律 斯蒂芬分享了一个亲身经历的戏剧性幻灭瞬间：他曾痴迷于某个服装品牌，并为之投入大量金钱，在他脑海中，这个品牌就像是两个匠人在卧室里一针一线缝制出来的艺术品。直到有一天，该品牌创始人在社交媒体上发了一段工厂幕后视频，斯蒂芬震惊地看到自己身上正穿的那件衬衫，正静静躺在一个装有 4,000 件一模一样衬衫的大塑料桶里。那一瞬间，他心目中的神秘光环骤然破碎，“彻底失去了兴趣”。 西蒙直言不讳地指出了商业底层的铁律——“规模会摧毁一切”（Scale breaks things）： - **特种部队法则**：海豹突击队（Navy SEALs）或英国特种空勤团（SAS）内部有一句名言：“你无法规模化‘卓越特质’（You can't scale special）。”顶尖精英之所以特殊，恰恰在于其不可复制的小规模；若将其训练推广至全军，其独特性便荡然无存。 - **Apple 与 Microsoft 的操作系统路线**：当年 PC 大战期间，苹果为了极致的系统稳定性与品质，坚决拒绝开放授权克隆操作系统，宁愿将全球市场份额压在 4% 左右；微软则选择与戴尔（Dell）、IBM 等各大硬件厂商兼容克隆 Windows，牺牲了体验的一致性，换取了 90% 以上的市场份额。品质与规模永远是一场零和博弈。 - **邓巴数（Dunbar's Number）与企业文化**：无数初创企业标榜“我们公司就像一个大家庭”，然而一旦团队规模扩张到 150 至 200 人（即邓巴数上限），人际连接的致密网络便会破裂，所谓的“家庭氛围”荡然无存，官僚化与工厂化随之滋生。 --- ### [01:02:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3745s) B2B 营销的误区：追求声量还是精准连接 斯蒂芬将“盲目追求规模”的弊端引申到企业营销领域。很多 B2B 营销人员常年陷入误区：盲目追逐曝光声量而非人群质量，试图让更多不相关的人看到，结果除了制造昂贵的噪音外，根本无法真正撬动业务转化。斯蒂芬坦言自己职业生涯早期也曾屡次踩坑，直到后来转变策略，通过精准对接核心决策人群，局面才迎来根本性的转机。 ### [01:03:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3809s) 现代约会困境与 Bumble 的转变：寻找爱之前先学会自爱 对话转向了现代人情感生活中的普遍焦虑。Steven Bartlett 抛出一个尖锐的问题：在当今社会，寻找真爱是否变得更加艰难？各项数据均显示，现代人的性生活频率在下降，而孤独感却达到了历史高位。接着他提到一个颇具商业与现实隐喻的现象——约会软件 Bumble 的股价表现不佳，整个约会应用市场似乎都陷入了瓶颈。Bumble 的创始人兼首席执行官惠特尼·沃尔夫·赫德（Whitney Wolfe Herd）最近重新出山主持大局，并在一场访谈中谈到她对平台的重大改版计划：Bumble 未来不再单纯定位于“帮人寻找外部的伴侣”，而是首先通过辅导等功能帮助用户“爱上自己”，在建立健全的自我认同之后，再去约会市场中寻找另一半。 Simon Sinek 对此深表认同，并将其比作商业法则的镜像：“就像员工如果不爱这家公司，客户就永远不可能爱上它一样；如果你不先爱自己，别人也绝不可能真正爱你。”他结合生活中的真实经历分享道，在大量破裂的人际关系中，深层的矛盾往往根源于某一方极度缺乏自我认同与自爱。他的一位女性好友目前正深陷寻找伴侣的痛苦泥潭中，屡屡碰壁，根本原因就在于她无法与自己和解，而她自己也深知这一点。Simon 认为，如果 Bumble 真能借助产品机制攻克“让人学会自爱”这道难题，那将是一件功德无量的大好事。 --- ### [01:05:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3918s) 为什么走错路更容易：常识与行动的鸿沟及商业的速成陷阱 谈及人性的弱点，Simon 指出，无论是在健康、关系还是商业上，道理往往都是“人尽皆知的常识”，但人类却很难付诸实践。每个人都知道如何保持健康、怎样坚持锻炼、什么是健康饮食，但在现实生活中大家依然大吃大喝、久坐不动，根本原因在于——“走错路太容易了，而走对路需要付出巨大的努力”（"Wrong is easier, and right takes effort"）。在亲密关系中，每个人理论上都知道应当彼此倾听、为对方提供情感包容空间（hold space），但具体做起来却困难重重。 这种知行鸿沟同样解释了为什么 Simon 写的畅销书广受赞誉，却极少有公司能真正落地执行。他将自己的方法论比作健身： - **可预测的效果**：如果一个人每天坚持锻炼 20 分钟，100% 能够恢复好身材。 - **无法预测的时间表**：无论是教练还是医生，都无法断言究竟是在第 30 天还是第 100 天见效。 - **管理层的不耐烦**：Simon 的著作——从《从“为什么”开始》（*Start With Why*）探寻使命，到《最后吃才是真领导》（*Leaders Eat Last*）建立团队信任，再到《无限的游戏》（*The Infinite Game*）培养商业韧性与创新——无一例外需要长期沉淀。然而绝大多数企业面临着季度财报或财年末指标的硬性考核，他们急于在本季度看到结果，因而放弃了这种慢工出细活的本质修炼。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 商业与关系中的无限游戏对比即时满足 accDescr: 对比只看结果的高速增长模式与注重过程的长期健康模式 subgraph Finite["有限游戏 / 速成思维"] F1["沉迷即时结果与指标"] --> F2["追求超高速增长 (Hypergrowth)"] F2 --> F3["迎合投资人与自我虚荣心"] F3 --> F4["基础脆弱，关系/企业容易崩塌"] end subgraph Infinite["无限游戏 / 长期主义"] I1["注重旅程与过程价值"] --> I2["坚持每日微小努力 (如锻炼/信任积累)"] I2 --> I3["建立强大韧性与深度连接"] I3 --> I4["100% 达成结果，虽然时间未知"] end ``` Simon 犀利地讽刺了当下创业圈对“超高速增长”（hypergrowth）和“瞪羚企业”（gazelle）的病态崇拜。每当有创业者炫耀自己的极速扩张时，他总会直截了当地反问：“你能否从任何权威刊物中找出一篇论据充分的文章，证明追求极速增长对企业长期健康是有益的？”答案显然是否定的。这种狂热不过是在迎合风险投资机构的短期利益或创业者个人的虚荣心。无论是做一家优秀的企业，还是经营一段深厚的关系，注重质量永远比单纯求快更有价值。 --- ### [01:08:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4081s) 随时随地的工作诅咒与“摩擦创造自由” 科技发展虽然消除了生活中的等待与障碍，却剥夺了人类喘息的空间。Simon 回忆起移动电话与个人电脑尚未普及的时代：人们在公司把工作做完，下班回家就是真正的下班；家里没有办公电脑，也没有随时响起的手机呼叫。他回忆起早期 AT&T 为推广移动通信所做的经典广告，画面上职场人士坐在阳光沙滩上用笔记本电脑工作，宣传语宣称“从此你可以离开办公室”，然而残酷的现实却是“工作从此侵入了生活的每一个角落”。员工再也无法真正下班，工作被装进了每个人的口袋，贯穿了每一个夜晚、周末和假期。 听到这里，Steven 提炼出了一个极具洞见的观察——**“摩擦创造自由”（Friction creates freedom）**： - **物理障碍保护了个人空间**：过去由于客观条件的限制（下班无法连接公司内网、需要等待供应商上班），这种“无法立即处理”的摩擦反而赋予了人们等待的权利和精神上的自由。 - **零阻力带来的无尽压迫**：在 AI 时代，技术消除了构建软件或生成方案的所有门槛，哪怕是在周末，一个人也能借助手机上的 AI 独立完成原本需要整个团队配合的工作。摩擦消失的同时，催生了“既然你现在能做，就必须立刻做出来”的窒息感与孤立感。 Simon 对此高度赞同，并指出当外在力量强行制造摩擦时——比如手机没电导致断联，或是公司断网被迫停工——人们往往能度过最美妙的夜晚或达成更高质量的深度工作。为了在日常生活中重新夺回主动权，Simon 分享了自己对付手机成瘾的对抗策略：他虽然无法彻底注销 Instagram，但他利用系统设置将图标完全隐藏，并关闭了搜索建议栏。每当无聊想要下意识点开时，他必须强制自己在搜索框中手动输入“I-N-S-T”。正是这微小的人为输入摩擦，打破了那种像“僵尸”一样无意识刷手机的神经反射，使得他的社交软件使用时长大幅骤降。 ### [01:11:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4261s) 线下是新的流行：AI 时代真实社群的崛起 在探讨社交媒体、Instagram 与 AI 的发展时，对话转向了“线下真实社群（in-real-life community）”的价值是否正在急速攀升。在当今世界，制作内容、开发应用或创办媒体公司的成本几乎正在归零——AI 可以让任何人轻松进行创造。曾经创作占了一半的工作，另一半则是分发；如今分发能力尚未归零，那些拥有真正社群的人便占据了极其巨大的优势。大家都能生产内容，但并非所有人都能触达并凝聚人群。因此，构建和培养社群成了少有的核心护城河。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: AI时代的社群演变路径 accDescr: 展示内容创作门槛归零后，分发与线下社群如何成为关键竞争优势的逻辑链。 subgraph S1["创作端变革"] A["生成式 AI 普及"] --> B["创作成本趋近于零"] end subgraph S2["价值转移"] B --> C["分发难度未减"] C --> D["真实线下社群凸显价值"] end subgraph S3["社群本质"] D --> E["共同成长与共同目标"] end ``` 西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）给出了他对“社群”的明确定义：“社群是一群同意共同成长的人。”而朋友则是“至少两个同意共同成长的人”。当前在市场营销领域，社群化运作已经成为一种狂热现象，从社群跑步俱乐部到各种品牌社群层出不穷，正如俗话所说，“线下成了新的黑色时尚（Offline is the new black）”。 西蒙举了一个名为 Clicks 的公司的例子。创办人艾莉克斯（Alix）在上大学时饱受重度抑郁与孤独之苦，根本不知如何结交朋友。为了解决自身面临的困境，她创办了这家公司： - 她在校园里张贴手写海报，找各种微不足道的借口把大家召集到线下，比如一起跑步、看恐怖电影或烘焙； - 参与者必须把手机收起来，在完全没有手机干扰的线下真实环境里互相结识； - 这家公司最具讽刺意味的幽默之处在于，她虽然做了一个 App，但其终极目的却是为了让大家“别用手机、离开网络”。 ### [01:13:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4412s) 从受众到社群：凝聚人心的共同目标与价值观 那么，维系一个社群的核心究竟是什么？人们往往通过共同兴趣建立初步联系，比如 Comic-Con（动漫展）、火人节（Burning Man），或是去现场看足球赛。只要穿上相同颜色的球衣、搭乘同一班地铁，陌生人立刻就能变成朋友。共同兴趣是一个极佳的破冰“伎俩”，至少让对话变得轻而易举。但斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）与西蒙探讨道，社群是否还需要一个“共同目标”？就像足球迷共同渴望胜利一样，真正的连接需要共同的追求。 斯蒂芬结合自身打造商业品牌的经历指出，当下的创业者和品牌主都在苦思冥想如何从单纯拥有“受众（audience）”转变为拥有真正的“社群（community）”。受众是单向接收（如播客听众），而社群则依赖深度关系与共享价值观。西蒙认为，那些不仅是随手翻阅、而是真正深爱《从“为什么”开始》（Start With Why）或践行《无限游戏》（The Infinite Game）的读者，其身上必然映射出一种特定的世界观和共同价值观。 ### [01:16:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4565s) 名利的诱惑与算法的临时雇员 西蒙指出，我们生活在一个充斥着金钱、名望和网红地位压力的世界，这些外界诱惑常常迫使人们质疑甚至背弃自己的初心。他分享了自己亲历的一个故事：某次他受邀参加一个由知名作家和演讲者组成的“智囊团（Mastermind Group）”。主办方最初宣称大家齐聚一堂是为了基于共同价值和目标“携手改变世界”。西蒙欣然赴约，结果到了现场，所有人通篇都在讨论如何互换邮件列表、如何交叉推广、各个项目的利润率是多少。西蒙当场直言：“你们这帮人聊的完全就只是为了赚更多的钱！我以为我们来这里是为了共同的善举。”自那之后，那个组织再也没有邀请过他。 西蒙用约瑟夫·坎贝尔（Joseph Campbell）的“英雄之旅”来剖析这种现象： - 英雄往往起步于不情愿的凡人，因某种使命被召唤踏上征程； - 在旅途的某个阶段，金钱或权力等诱惑必然降临，试图引诱英雄偏离轨道，就像卢克·天行者（Luke Skywalker）险些被黑暗面诱惑一样； - 没有任何人能仅靠单打独斗抵抗住所有名利诱惑，我们必须拥有至少一两个能在关键时刻“扇你耳光、让你清醒”的真朋友，提醒你最初到底签下了什么契约。 财富与名气容易让人滋生自大心理，产生“他们难道不知道我是谁吗？”的傲慢错觉。西蒙特别讽刺了如今社交媒体上缺乏知识与技能却盲目追求影响力的“卡戴珊模式”。他回忆在一次演唱会上，看到一名女子在过道上摆拍，旁边的人夸耀说“她是个知名网红”，西蒙当即反驳：“你的意思是，她是‘算法的自由职业临时工’吧？”他指出，作为这类网红，一旦平台更改了底层算法，你的饭碗就可能瞬间化为乌有。斯蒂芬打趣道，西蒙这番尖锐的评述恐怕刚刚直接得罪并失去了上百位认证“蓝勾”的网红追随者。西蒙最后澄清，他并不反对带来真实价值的影响力，他所反对的，是那些仅仅为了追逐数字、把一切都变成围绕自我膨胀的空洞操作。 ### [01:19:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4763s) 追求关注的极端代价与“给予 vs 索取” Simon Sinek 和 Steven Bartlett 谈及社交媒体驱动下的扭曲行为。Simon 讲起一个令人触目惊心的真实案例：一对年轻伴侣为了在 YouTube 上吸引更多粉丝，不断策划越来越疯狂的特技噱头。最终，男方拿了一本厚厚的字典挡在胸前，让女方朝他开枪，盲目地认为那本厚书能挡住子弹；结果子弹射穿了字典，男子在镜头前当场丧命。事后女方承认，他们之所以冒这种致命危险做夸张的恶作剧，完全是因为面临获取 YouTube 播放量所带来的巨大财务压力。 Simon 指出，这是一个极端的反面教材，展示了人们在试图获取关注时如何“丧失理智”。他强调，通过“给予”（giving）来获取关注是无可厚非的——例如秉持“我手头有一套理念或东西，我认为能帮到你”的初衷；而通过“索取”（taking）——即纯粹叫嚷着“看我、看我、看我”——来吸引眼球，本质上是自私的。问题不在于想要被看见，而在于背后的初衷与动机。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 两种获取关注的心态差异 accDescr: 对比利他给予模式与自我索取模式的动机与后果 subgraph Giving["给予型（利他）"] G1["“我有能帮到你的东西”"] --> G2["价值输入与服务心态"] G2 --> G3["建立真诚长久的联结"] end subgraph Taking["索取型（利己）"] T1["“看我、快看我！”"] --> T2["追逐算法与流量焦虑"] T2 --> T3["做出非理性、极端行为"] end ``` --- ### [01:20:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4834s) 缺乏人生意义与孤独感的内在机制 Steven 拿出几份有关现代人心理状态的统计图表，希望 Simon 结合自己的理论做出解读。第一组数据表明，缺乏人生意义与目标（Meaning and Purpose）的成年人，其感到孤独的比例极高。Steven 坦言自己最初看到这个结论时不太能理解背后的逻辑，但 Simon 认为这完全顺理成章： Simon 解释道，家庭和朋友之所以能赋予生活意义，是因为你觉得自己是在“为了他人而存在”。如果一个人每天醒来都不知道自己为何而出发，生命就会沦为一场迷茫的孤独探索。相反，强烈的目标感（Sense of Purpose）提供了一整套机制： - **决策机制**：让人清晰地知道该做什么、不该做什么。 - **人际桥梁**：当你用“为什么”（Why）来介绍自己时，它会变成一块磁铁。例如不说干瘪的“我是一名牙医”，而是说“我每天醒来，是为了激励人们去追寻能激励他们的事情”，这瞬间为他人搭起了一座跨越交流的桥梁。 随后 Steven 翻到全球不同性别的孤独感分布数据：两性比例大约各占 50%，女性在“完全不孤独”的指标上略好于男性。两人推测这可能与女性通常更擅长结交朋友、维持深度社交关系有关。 --- ### [01:22:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4970s) 心理健康、孤岛生存机制与孤独的恶性循环 Steven 接着展示了心理健康与孤独感的数据：在抑郁症人群中，有 68% 的人感到孤独；在焦虑症人群中，有 67% 的人感到孤独。Steven 询问良好的心理健康是否是远离孤独的基础。Simon 否定了这种因果倒置的说法，他认为**“拥有一个真正关心你的人，才是远离孤独的根本基石”**。当一个人处在心理健康出现裂痕的低谷期时，这种痛苦自然会外显为孤独与焦虑，而渡过难关最好的方式，恰恰是向深爱你的人寻求依靠。 讨论进而延伸到演化心理学上：人在陷入孤独时，体内皮质醇水平飙升、睡眠质量恶化、产生更多无名怒火并变得高度戒备与自私。 - **孤岛生存环境**：在荒野或孤岛上独自求生时，这种“全神贯注自我保全、时刻戒备”的生理机制能提升单个个体的存活率。 - **现代社会环境**：人是高度依赖合作的社会性动物。在部落或群体中，自私、多疑和防备心会让同伴敬而远之，最终彻底切断社交支持网络，演变成危险的恶性循环。 --- ### [01:25:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=5102s) 如何破解孤独：用“为他人服务”打破自我防卫 Steven 感慨现代人虽然不再生活在荒岛上，却被困在一座座由水泥墙隔绝的城市孤岛中，越来越多身边的朋友频繁提起“孤独”这个词。他提到自己在洛杉矶的按摩师：尽管生活在大都市且身边有人环绕，但经历离婚、独自抚养孩子的她感到极度孤独与渴望友谊。 面对“该如何建议一个深陷孤独的人”这一问题，Simon 直言，告诉对方“多承担风险、多社交露脸”是苍白无力的套话，因为处于极度抑郁和孤独中的人根本没有那种心力。Simon 提出了自己的核心解法——**“把自我放在第二位”（Put myself second）**： - **服务他人**：不要满脑子只想着“怎样才能解决我自己的孤独”，而是主动寻找另一个同样孤独的人去帮助他们。 - **坦承脆弱**：主动说出“其实我很孤独”，会创造出一个安全的场域，让对方也能放下戒备附和“其实我也是”。 - **倾听与承载空间**：一旦对方敞开心扉，你可以说“跟我讲讲吧”，通过为别人理清痛苦、提供支持，自身的孤独感也会在利他行动中得到疗愈。 Steven 随即补充，这位女按摩师身上恰好存在典型的防卫机制：她极度害怕向别人袒露私人生活，深信“如果别人真正了解了我，他们对我的态度就会发生改变”。即便作为她多年的常客，Steven 也足足用了约 20 次理疗疗程才从她紧绷的肢体语言中，艰难地得知她其实独自带着两个孩子。 ### [01:27:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=5248s) 脆弱与风险：建立深度关系的必经之路 Simon Sinek 和 Steven Bartlett 探讨了人们在人际交往中普遍存在的防卫机制。许多人害怕袒露真实的自我，心里总想着：“如果别人知道了我真正的模样，了解了我更多，他们可能就会改变对我的态度，甚至不再喜欢我，所以我宁愿把一切都藏在心里。”Simon 指出，这是一个古老的困境——许多人为了避免受伤而把心防筑得极高，发誓绝不去爱任何人，但最终的结果往往是陷入无尽的孤独与痛苦。 这与创业或直面挣扎的逻辑如出一辙。Simon 举例提到，数据统计显示超过 90% 的新创企业都会在前三年内倒闭。从纯理性角度来看，去创办一家失败率高达九成以上的企业简直不可理喻，创业者必须受到某种更深层的动力驱使，去承担这种压倒性的失败几率。而正是“愿意向失败敞开自己”的心态，才让极少数人最终获得了成功。 爱情与友谊也是完全相同的逻辑。建立关系是世界上风险最高的事情之一：对方确实有可能因此改变看法，确实有可能不再喜欢你；但与之相对的几率是，对方也可能因此爱上你、欣赏你，觉得你非常棒。不买彩票就绝不可能中头奖，如果不愿承担暴露脆弱的风险，就永远无法获得真挚关系的回报。Simon 澄清这并不意味着要把自己所有阴暗的秘密一股脑全倒出来，但如果连一点让对方产生共鸣的切入点都不肯给，彼此就无法找到能说出“我也是（Me, too）”的连接纽带。Steven 也以自己的经历呼应：他的朋友正是因为 Steven 不断耐心地叩开心门，才最终彻底卸下防备，两人建立起深厚而安全的友谊。 - 建立深刻联结既可以源于自己主动承担微小风险、分享一点自我，也可以源于遇到一个充满好奇心的人，耐心地一次次叩开你的心防。 - 若没有前期的情感冒险，就无法建立起让彼此感到安全与被理解的真挚关系。 --- ### [01:30:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=5425s) 好奇心：化解对立与找到共鸣的关键能力 Steven 提出疑问：找到能对彼此说出“我也是”的事物，是否就是“连接（Connection）”的本质？Simon 认为这涵盖了共同的价值观与兴趣，但更底层的能力在于“保持好奇心”。他以当下极度极化的政治环境为例：两大阵营都坚信自己百分之百正确，视对方为错误、愚蠢或是盲从的羊群（sheeple），没有人愿意去倾听对方为何会形成那样的观点。 Simon 分享了自己与政治立场截然相反的人沟通的经验。他不去急于反驳或赞同，而是扮演一名调查者，真诚地发问：“你能多跟我讲讲你是如何形成这些观点的吗？我真的很好奇。”当层层剥开、深入探寻后，对方往往会说出某一句让 Simon 也发自内心认同的话：“在这一点上我百分之百同意你。”从那一刻起，双方就建立了一种“确认（Validation）”——这并不等同于赞同对方的所有政治主张，而是认可对方的想法有其合理性，彼此找到了可以共同立足的交集。一旦获得这种心理确认，对方也会变得极其开放，开始对 Simon 的观点产生好奇。Simon 强调，无论分歧多大，能够做到倾听并保持好奇，是当今世界上最被低估的技能之一。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 建立人际与观点联结的好奇心沟通循环 accDescr: 展示从放下评判到建立共识与双向理解的沟通转化过程。 subgraph 沟通态度与倾听 A["放下非对即错的评判"] --> B["抱持调查者心态真诚发问"] end subgraph 寻找交集与确认 B --> C["层层探寻深层信念"] C --> D["发现共同点：双方认同的切入点"] end subgraph 促成双向联结 D --> E["给予情感确认与观点认可"] E --> F["对方放下防御并展现双向好奇"] end ``` --- ### [01:32:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=5535s) 学会“在脖子以下生活”：理性分析与身体感受的平衡 谈话随后转向亲密关系中的情感处理。Steven 提到自己的伴侣非常具有灵性且情绪充沛，当两人坐下来解决问题时，前 60 到 90 分钟往往是在摸索情绪背后的真正原因，这在理性的 Steven 看来并不符合逻辑。但 Steven 逐渐意识到，此时自己的职责不是去纠正事实或断定对错，而是静静坐在一旁，让对方把所有的情绪宣泄出来。 Simon 极其共鸣地指出，他和 Steven 有着完全相同的思维痼疾——“活在脖子以上（Living above our necks）”。作为极度依赖头脑进行逻辑推理、分析和解释的人，他们在面对自己或他人的情绪时，第一反应往往是拿出一套分析报告，却极度欠缺“在脖子以下生活”的能力，即用心灵和身体去真实地感受。Simon 打了个艺术鉴赏的比方：欣赏艺术不需要逻辑论证，只要感受自己“喜不喜欢”即可；而在面对伴侣的情感流露时，同样不需要分析对错，只需要去体会与感受。 Simon 讲述了擅长伴侣关系修复的心理专业好友 Bea（Bea Oche）引导他的经历。当时对方询问 Simon 感受到了什么情绪，接着问：“你在身体的哪个部位感受到了这种情绪？”Simon 最初觉得这个提问荒谬至极，但在引导下，他终于意识到情绪出现时，自己的身体确实有着生理反应——胸口会发紧、肩膀会僵硬、呼吸变得沉重、拳头会不自觉地攥紧。Simon 感慨，那些灵性充沛的人习惯在“脖子以下生活”，而过度理性的人往往对此嗤之以鼻，但实际上，学会用身体去感知情绪，是许多习惯于头脑分析的人必须重新学习的艰难课题。 ### [01:35:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=5745s) 情绪感知、身体直觉与自动化岗位招聘的下滑 西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）谈到对身体感觉的敏锐度在人际交往中具有极高的价值。他指出史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）的女友具备一种深刻感知自身身体情绪变化的能力，这种敏锐的身体知觉不仅对彼此的关系至关重要，也是建立深厚连接的最大契机。 随后，对话转向了一份展示劳动力市场趋势的数据图表。该图表对比了易受自动化影响的岗位与重体力劳动岗位的线上招聘数量，清晰地反映出自动化相关工种招聘启事的显著下滑。西蒙指出，以脑力劳动为主的“知识工作者”（knowledge work）必将首当其冲，受到人工智能（AI）极其猛烈的冲击。 --- ### [01:36:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=5788s) 日本刀匠的匠人精神与被遗忘的白领业余爱好 谈及体力与手艺的不可替代性，西蒙分享了他在日本拜访传统武士刀匠人的经历。全日本仅剩约100至150名依然沿用200年前传统工艺锻造武士刀的大师，他们亲手敲打、折叠金属。西蒙走进狭小的作坊，询问一位精瘦的老匠人是如何入行的。匠人坦言，自己年轻时曾是一名普通的白领上班族，直到某天醒来猛然意识到“这绝不能是我的一生”，于是毅然辞职寻找学徒机会。当被问及从事这项事业多久时，匠人谦逊地表示自己才刚摸到一点门道、还有很大提升空间，而实际上他已经坚持锻造了整整30年。西蒙感叹，这种认为“自己永远不够好、唯有继续精进”的态度正是极其典型的日本匠人精神。 反观现代社会的脑力工作者，西蒙提出一个扎心的问题：如果去问当今的白领有什么业余爱好，他们往往哑口无言。他回顾了新冠疫情隔离封控期间的经历： - 史蒂文在封控期尝试了练习做 DJ、跑步以及骑自行车。 - 西蒙则全情投入于日本传统金缮工艺（Kintsugi）——用掺有金粉的天然大漆或环氧树脂修补破碎的陶瓷器皿。其哲学内核在于“物品破碎之后能够蜕变出更具包容性的美感”。 - 然而一旦解除封控回归日常，两人便彻底将这些活动搁置，无论是金缮还是打碟，之后的参与频率都归结为零。 --- ### [01:38:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=5913s) AI 能否归还人类失去的时间？ 西蒙进一步反思人们对“空闲时间”的矛盾心理。大家总在讨论技术将赋予人类海量的闲暇时间，但在现实中，现代人却几乎完全丧失了属于自己的业余时光——生活全被工作、思考工作和讨论工作填满。西蒙指出，倒退四五十年，人们的生活中拥有充裕的闲暇，大家会去打保龄球、看电影、互相串门做饭聚餐。 现代人之所以拼命用工作麻痹自己，很大程度上是为了逃避糟糕的现实生活。西蒙直言，或许过去30年里人类内心深处最迫切渴望的，恰恰是让 AI 接管一部分琐碎工作，从而把时间真正归还给生活： - 让人类重新拥有打理人际关系、解决孤独问题的空间； - 赋予人们尝试新事物、探索爱好的从容； - 打破以无休止加班逃避生活困境的恶性循环。 --- ### [01:40:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6001s) 赞助商插播：Ekster 智能钱包与 Perfect Ted 罐装抹茶拿铁 节目中穿插了两位赞助商的推荐： - **Ekster 智能防丢钱包**：史蒂文坦承自己性格健忘，经常丢失钱包与多本护照，在海外补办驾照和信用卡极为繁琐。Ekster 钱包接入了苹果的“查找”（Apple Find My）生态系统，轻触手机即可发声定位；同时具备铝合金极简防盗刷（RFID 阻隔）设计与一键弹卡功能。 - **Perfect Ted 罐装抹茶拿铁**：史蒂文投资的饮品品牌推出了香草与草莓风味的即饮罐装抹茶拿铁。该产品历经四年研发调试，提供媲美精品咖啡馆的自然甘甜与顺滑口感，相比传统咖啡或功能饮料，抹茶能提供持久平稳的能量供给而不易产生脱力崩溃感。 --- ### [01:42:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6121s) 人生阶段的挣扎：在假性紧迫感中守护友情 当史蒂文询问西蒙在这个人生阶段正在与什么搏斗时，西蒙表示自己手头事务繁多，虽乐在其中，却总觉得一天时间不够用。不过在人际关系上，他已经找到了极为坚定的原则。西蒙在撰写关于友谊的新书过程中，逐渐形成了像对待重大商业会议一样对待朋友的习惯。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Simon Sinek 时间管理与人际筛选机制 accDescr: 展示西蒙如何将朋友聚会等同于商务会议排入日程，并借朋友之口阐明拒绝低质社交的能量原则 subgraph ScheduleManagement ["日程管理：对等重视与消除假性紧急"] A["下午4:00 安排与朋友喝茶"] --> B["以‘外出开会’的名义离开办公室"] B --> C{"面对临时插进来的工作来电"} C -- "绝不取消" --> D["赋予友情与商业日程同等权重"] C -- "审视必要性" --> E["识别‘假性紧迫’：推迟至下周处理"] end subgraph EnergyFilter ["社交筛选法则：高能量与启发性"] F["商业合作 / 社交邀约"] --> G{"是否能带来启发、欢笑或灵感？"} G -- "吸取能量 / 毫无所获" --> H["哪怕涉及巨额利益也果断拒绝"] G -- "彼此启发、快乐" --> I["值得投入精力深入合作"] end ``` 西蒙会在下午四点把“与某位朋友喝茶”堂而皇之地写入日程。当他宣布“我要去赴一个会”并走出办公室时，没有任何同事会质疑或阻拦；而当下属提出“有个遗留电话需要处理，能否取消这场喝茶”时，西蒙会坚决拒绝：“就像你不会随便取消商业客户会议一样，绝对不能取消我与朋友的约定。”他认为职场上充斥着人为制造的“假性紧迫”（fake urgency），绝大多数事务推迟到下周处理并不会产生任何实质性损失。 西蒙还分享了一位业务极度繁忙的朋友的处世哲学。这位朋友刚刚结束与一位位高权重、手握重金且极力寻求合作的商界显贵会面，出来后却直斥这场会面“纯属浪费时间”。朋友解释道，对方不过是个“有钱的混蛋”，整场对话既没让自己学到任何新知，也毫无乐趣可言。这位朋友立下了一条坚不可摧的原则：**只与那些在相处后能教会自己东西、能带来欢笑、或者离开时能让自己备受鼓舞的人共事；如果一个人只会吸噬能量，那么无论对方能开出多么丰厚诱人的金钱条件，也必须毫不犹豫地拒绝。** 西蒙由衷赞叹这种在利益面前依然能保持极度自信与清醒的决断力，并鼓励大家将其推广到日常生活的每个层面。 ### [01:44:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6288s) 选择能与你产生“良性冲突”的合作者 西蒙·斯涅克（Simon Sinek）从人际关系的取舍谈起：如果我们不再把时间浪费在那些只会榨取我们能量的“吸血鬼朋友”身上，而是多去陪伴真正让我们感到快乐的人，生活会发生怎样的转变？这一逻辑同样适用于商业决策——安排会议时不应只盯住美元符号和潜在利益，而应选择那些真正让你感到兴奋的对话对象；在寻找商业伙伴时，哪怕对方开出的利润稍薄，只要其团队文化良好、成员彼此投契，就更值得合作。因为一旦危机来临，你真正需要的是一个你能毫不犹豫拿起电话向其求助的人。 西蒙分享了一个在出版界屡见不鲜的现象。许多功成名就的前首席执行官（CEO）在准备出书时，往往会引来多家出版社的竞价大战。当这些高管前来咨询“该选哪家出版社”时，西蒙给出的建议始终如一：“选那家你最能与之痛痛快快争吵的出版社（Choose the one you're going to fight with best）。”西蒙解释道，创作一本好书必然伴随着创作张力和激烈的意见交锋；作者必须找到一个真心相信你的理念、渴望打造杰作，并且能与你进行高质量思想博弈的编辑团队。然而，几乎所有人都无视了他的忠告，毫不犹豫地选择了开价最高的买家，而最终的结果无一例外——他们写出了一堆根本卖不出去的平庸烂作。 史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）随即笑着指出，这其实也是一条普适的亲密关系法则：在感情里，你同样需要挑选那个“最适合与你吵架的人”。西蒙深以为然，感叹人们在名利面前太容易抛弃对产品品质和精神契合的追求。 --- ### [01:46:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6380s) 年轻人择业：选导师而非选薪水 这种基于“人”而非“利益”的原则，在初入职场的年轻人身上尤为关键。西蒙强调，处于初级或入门岗位的年轻人，只要薪资能够维持体面生活，就不应该过分纠结于具体报酬的高低，而应该全力挑选未来要跟随的上司。早年西蒙在接受人力资源部门面试时，每次被问及“你在寻找什么”，他的回答都如出一辙：“我就像在寻找爱情一样，我在寻找一位真正的导师。” 西蒙回顾自己的青年时代，他既非含着金汤匙出生的信托基金宝贝，也同样背负着生活账单，但他从不看重公司光鲜亮丽的品牌光环，也不为高出五千美元的薪资动心。只要另一家待遇稍低的公司里有一位值得跟随的领路人，他就会毫不犹豫地选择后者。西蒙感慨，这是自己年轻时做出的最正确的决定——虽然短期内赚的钱比同龄朋友少，但他却获得了无价的倾囊相授与悉心栽培。 - **丹尼斯·格伦农（Dennis Glennon）**：在西蒙职场起步期发现其潜质并悉心指引的卓越领导者之一。 - **彼得·恩托马西奥（Peter Tomassio）**：以独特的启发式管理磨砺西蒙独立思考与抗压能力的导师。 - **帕梅拉·马菲特（Pamela Maffitt）**：对年轻时期的西蒙关怀备至、传授领导力精髓的关键领路人。 --- ### [01:48:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6487s) 职业发展的“五个水桶”法则 史蒂芬借此分享了他在自己著作第一章提出的“五个水桶”（Five Buckets）职业成长模型，用来解答年轻人该如何规划职业优先级： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 职业生涯的五个水桶模型 accDescr: 展示不可剥夺的基础水桶（知识与技能）以及随外部环境波动的三个上层水桶（人脉、资源、声誉）。 subgraph Core ["不可剥夺的核心资本（底层基石）"] B1["水桶 1：知识 (Knowledge)"] B2["水桶 2：技能 (Skills)<br/>知识经由实践转化而来"] B1 --> B2 end subgraph Dynamic ["随外部波动的高阶资本（浮动资产）"] B3["水桶 3：人脉网络 (Network)"] B4["水桶 4：资源与财富 (Resources)"] B5["水桶 5：声誉与评价 (Reputation)"] end B2 -.->|"支撑并重塑"| Dynamic ``` 史蒂芬指出，无论遭遇裁员还是行业震荡，没有任何职场地震能够倒空前两个水桶里的沉淀，且“应用后的知识即转化为技能”；而后三个水桶（人脉、资源、声誉）则具有极大的不确定性，随时可能随外界环境起伏。年轻人若过早追求后三个水桶，往往会遭遇反噬。长远来看，命运终究会将一个人拉回与其真实知识和技能相匹配的水位。 史蒂芬分享了一个真实案例：曾有一名年轻员工在21岁时从史蒂芬的公司离职，远赴美国出任一家公司的CEO。当时史蒂芬便断定对方尚未积攒出胜任CEO所需的认知与技能储备。果不其然，不到24个月那家公司便轰然倒闭，该年轻人最终只能重新跌回原先的基础岗位。 --- ### [01:49:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6582s) 优秀领导者如何培养独立性与后备方案 西蒙对“五个水桶”模型深表认同，并指出真正能帮你注满前两个水桶的，正是那些看重你的潜质、愿意给你犯错空间并逼你收拾残局的卓越领导者。西蒙回忆，自己遇到的优秀上司从不单纯奖励结果，而是奖励正确的行为。只要展现出了积极的主动性，即便最终结果未达预期，也会获得肯定；而一旦搞砸了事情，领导不会粗暴发火，而是冷静地反问：“那你打算怎么解决？” 以导师彼得·恩托马西奥为例，西蒙笑称彼得当年“讨厌至极”，因为他从不正面回答西蒙的任何求助。每当西蒙询问“彼得，我该怎么做”，对方只会踢回皮球：“我不知道，你觉得该怎么做？”当西蒙硬着头皮给出想法，彼得便说：“那就去照办吧。”如果西蒙继续追问，彼得只会悠悠地来一句：“那你最好再去好好想想。”这种看似残酷的逼迫，彻底戒掉了西蒙的依赖心理，逼迫他学会独立思考、多方求证并形成自己的坚定立场。 西蒙还分享了一段令他终生难忘的惊险往事。某次他犯下大错险些酿成巨祸，经过一番惊心动魄的折腾虽然勉强平息，但彼得故意让他整整煎熬了一整天。直到傍晚六点，电话铃声响起，来电显示正是彼得： > “喂？”西蒙忐忑地接起电话。 > “今天好险啊。”彼得在电话那头说。 > “是的。”西蒙回答。 > “被子弹擦破皮，总好过被子弹正中脑门。”彼得说。 > “是的。”西蒙点头。 > “祝你今晚过得愉快。” > “你也是。” 整通通话就此结束。这段极具张力的经历在西蒙骨子里刻下了一个至关重要的职业习惯：凡事必设备用方案（Backup Plan）。即便方案尚未全部就绪，大脑中也必须预演过失败应对路径，这构成了他在未来风浪中从容应对的底层底气。西蒙感叹，这恰恰呼应了整场对话的核心主旨——真正塑造一个人的，从来不是平坦的捷径，而是那些充满磨砺与挣扎的成长旅程。 ### [01:52:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6746s) 技术的本质与人类共存的现实 Simon 指出，我们生命的目的地并不是冷冰冰的技术，而是那些指引我们、为我们留出空间、让我们在世界展现更好自我的“人”。AI 无疑会让我们的生活变得更轻松，正如历史上绝大多数技术革新所做的那样——这是技术的普遍法则：让生活更便捷、更高效、更迅速，减少肌肉与身体的劳损。从最原始的犁，一路发展到互联网乃至今天的 AI，其本质都是为了让生活轻松一点。 然而，无论技术如何演变，人类终究是社会性动物，必须与其他人生活在一起。AI 可以优化事务处理流程，却无法替代人与人之间真实的陪伴、托底与指引。 --- ### [01:53:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6783s) 为什么 Simon 选择写一本关于“友谊”的书 Steven 谈到大众对 Simon 正在撰写的新书充满期待，并问了一个核心问题：Simon 的涉猎领域横跨商业、人生领导力等诸多课题，为什么偏偏要下定决心，投入巨大精力去写一本关于“友谊”（Friendship）的书？ Simon 剖析了当前社会的荒谬现象：市面上有极其庞大的产业教人如何成为一名优秀的领导者，有数不清的书籍、机构和咨询服务指导人如何经营成功的婚姻、建立浪漫关系甚至寻找伴侣；然而，教导人们“如何做好一个朋友”的指导却寥寥无几。Simon 强调，无论是一个人要拥有成功且能抵御职场压力的职业生涯，还是要维系一段能扛过风浪的婚姻，最底层不可或缺的支柱其实都是“朋友”。当婚姻亮起红灯时，你会找朋友倾诉；当职场陷入绝境时，你也是找朋友求助。 为了践行这一点，Simon 已经开始重组自己的日常生活，不再把友情视为理所当然。他甚至会在必要时降低工作的优先级，腾出时间与朋友相处，因为这既能给朋友带来力量，也能滋养自己。面对当今社会普遍存在的孤独、抑郁、焦虑、压力应对无能以及对延年益寿（Longevity）的病态执念，人们尝试了各种药物、度假甚至心理理论，但 Simon 坚信：“友谊才是终极的生物黑客（Friendship is the ultimate bio hack）。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 友谊在人生困境中的核心支撑作用 accDescr: 图表展示了职业危机与婚姻困境最终都需要友谊作为底层心理支持与解法。 subgraph Crises["人生常见高压危机"] A["职场压力与事业危机"] B["婚姻破裂与情感挫折"] end subgraph Solution["底层支持系统"] C["真正的朋友 (Friends)"] D["倾听、托底、赋能与陪伴"] end subgraph Outcome["身心疗愈成果"] E["战胜孤独与抑郁"] F["终极生物黑客效果"] end A --> C B --> C C --> D D --> E E --> F ``` - **菠菜与巧克力蛋糕的比喻**：人们明知蔬菜和锻炼对身体好，即便枯燥也会坚持；而友谊既具备菠菜的所有健康益处，品尝起来却像美味的巧克力蛋糕——只要经营得当，它是世界上最健康的良药。 --- ### [01:55:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6957s) 区分真正的朋友与“功能型关系” 当 Steven 提问“如何知道某个人是不是真正的朋友”时，Simon 给出的建议非常直接：直接和对方展开坦诚的对话。 生活中充斥着各种各样的“圈子人脉”，例如因为商务往来建立的“交易型朋友”（deal friends）、因节目录制而结识的“播客朋友”（podcast friends）或是普通的“工作伙伴”。Simon 澄清，拥有单纯一起玩乐、打发时间的朋友并无不可，你不会指望向他们倾诉核心的个人困境或寻求深度建议。但他承认自己也曾陷入这样的误区：花时间陪伴那些仅仅填补无聊、驱散暂时孤独感的人，但告别时内心并没有感到更聪慧、更受鼓舞或更轻松。如今，他更渴望将宝贵精力留给那些能够彼此托举、互相传道授业、给予毫无保留的支持与爱，并愿意向彼此袒露心声、让双方都有机会为对方付出的深度朋友。 --- ### [01:57:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=7037s) 名人特权、社交惰性与跟进的缺失 Steven 坦言自己在交友方面存在巨大的障碍，自嘲在维护友谊上“非常懒惰”：往往在初次见面时能与对方产生极好的共鸣，但在随后的后续跟进（Follow Up）中却不知所措，最终任由关系不了了之。听到这里，Simon 毫不留情地插刀吐槽：“你的后续跟进简直烂透了（Your follow up is crap）！”两人随即开始互揭老底，Simon 甚至当场翻旧账，控诉 Steven 经常在通讯软件上对自己“已读不回”（left me on read），引发一阵欢笑。 Simon 深入剖析了这种社交惰性背后的深层心理机制： 1. **权力与名金的腐蚀**：当一个人拥有了金钱、知名度，或是成为了高高在上的老板，社会便开始无底线地包容他们的无礼。即使他们迟到数小时，周围的人也只会唯唯诺诺地说“没关系”。 2. **缺乏被问责的环境**：对于习惯被阿谀奉承的名人而言，外界几乎没有人敢当面严厉训斥他们“缺乏尊重、浪费他人时间”。长此以往，他们理所应当地享受别人的主动付出，自己却变得越来越懒。 3. **有意为之的傲慢 vs. 无知的盲目**：少数人甚至对自己的特权心知肚明并故意滥用，这比无意识的疏忽更加恶劣。维持友谊是一项需要持续投入精力与付出的技能，绝不可能自然而然地发生。 --- ### [01:59:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=7161s) 人性溢价与被遗忘的手写信 很多听众可能都有过类似体验：遇到志趣相投的人，却因双方都不具备维系关系的社交技能而渐行渐远。更有甚者，现代社交礼仪变得极为畸形——当 Simon 在一次愉快聚会后立即打电话回访时，对方反而会惊恐地反问：“你怎么居然直接打电话过来？你为什么不发短信？” Steven 指出，这恰恰印证了对话开头提到的核心趋势：在数字化与 AI 充斥的时代，“人性化举动正在产生巨大溢价”（premium on human）。在这个连通电话都被视作老派古董的时代，亲自打电话反而成了一种珍贵的礼遇；而比电话更进一步的极致表达，则是手写信件。 - **Evan Spiegel 的手写信**：Steven 分享了一个令他极度触动的真实案例——Snapchat 创始人兼首席执行官 Evan Spiegel 在录制完播客后，在 Steven 返回伦敦办公室时，桌上已经摆放了一封 Evan 亲笔书写的信件。信中真诚感谢 Steven 深入细致的案头研究与高质量提问，并附上了个人电话号码表达保持联络的愿望。 - **现场幽默交锋**：Simon 随即开玩笑质疑“那肯定是 AI 写的，或者用了自动签名笔（auto-pen）”。Steven 坚定回应那确实是 Evan 用钢笔亲手书写并签名的，Simon 赞许这种行为展示了极其纯粹、经典的修养与风度（classic and classy）。 ### [02:00:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=7232s) 告别与延续友谊的承诺 Steven 对 Simon Sinek 表达了极大的感激之情，感谢他一如既往地慷慨分享时间。Steven 坦言 Simon 的见解总能以深刻且出人意料的方式拓展他的思维，并为他带来长久的启发。两人还打趣道彼此的友谊——Steven 保证以后回消息会更快，两人相约未来一定要多聚聚，特别期待在不久后的伦敦碰面。就在准备收尾之际，Steven 提到了节目每期的传统环节：由上一位嘉宾在日记本中留下一个问题，交由下一位嘉宾回答。 ### [02:00:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=7259s) 倾囊相授团队与重燃的“创始人模式” Steven 打开笔记本念出了上一位嘉宾留下的问题：“你在生活中正在做些什么来指导那些跟在你身后的后辈？谁是你最想去指导、教学或辅导，且最需要你声音的人？” Simon 毫不犹豫地回答，他现在的重心完全在自己的团队身上。他渴望将自己一生所学、以及从所有犯过的错误中总结出的经验，毫无保留地传递给团队成员。谈及这一点，Simon 提到了重回“创始人模式”（founder mode）的乐趣：与最初一无所有的创业阶段不同，如今他的经验与知识储备库丰盈充沛，能够尽情向外倾倒。他希望打造一个哪怕自己不在也能基业长青的组织——即通俗所说的“校车测试”（school bus test，如果创始人不幸被校车撞了，公司能否继续运转）。他追求的最高境界是让团队成员甚至“渴望在没有我的情况下继续建设它”。 当 Steven 询问这种心态转变的契机时，Simon 坦言过去几年里，他尝试了许多不同的方向，试图找回曾经一度丢失的兴奋感与充沛能量，而如今他终于重新找回了状态。现在的团队敢于突破边界，而他作为领导者所要做的就是“解开缰绳”，放手让他们大胆实验。他建立了一个允许失败的创造性环境，哪怕一半的尝试都会失败也无所谓，关键在于不断推陈出新。 ### [02:02:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=7365s) 空军挑战币与“建设、传授、领导”的人生格言 随后，Steven 拿出了节目组提前请 Simon 带来的一件对其意义非凡的物品——一个精致的盒子。打开后，里面放着两枚军旅风格的挑战币（Challenge Coins）。Simon 拿出一枚传统的圆形硬币作为对比，并重点介绍了另一枚对他而言意义非凡的硬币。他解释说，挑战币通常只有将军或指挥官才能颁发，是极难获得的荣誉；与正式的军功勋章相比，它的形式更为非正式，是指挥官为了表彰某人的杰出服务而赠送的心意，让人切实体会到是凭实力赢得了认可。 Simon 还生动地示范了军中赠送挑战币的独特仪式：长官并不会直接将硬币递过来，而是将其扣在掌心里，在与你紧紧握手的瞬间连同感谢之词一同暗中送入手中，并说：“非常感谢你来到这里为我们提供帮助。” ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 武器学校核心价值闭环 accDescr: 展现从学习积累到传授他人再到培养领导者的三步循环过程。 A["Build<br/>（建立技能）"] --> B["Teach<br/>（传授他人）"] B --> C["Lead<br/>（引领并培养领袖）"] C --> A ``` 这枚特殊的挑战币来自美国空军武器学校（United States Air Force Weapons School，俗称空军版 Top Gun）。Simon 曾受邀协助他们提炼核心宗旨（Why）与文化底蕴，最终帮助他们总结出了每位从武器学校毕业的精英都必须践行的三个核心行动词： - **Build（建立）**：锤炼并建立扎实的专业技能。 - **Teach（传授）**：毫不保留地将所学技能传授给战友与后辈。 - **Lead（引领）**：带领团队并培养未来的领导者，肩负起积累、奉献与服务的责任。 武器学校的校长对这一提炼高度认同，甚至直接下令将“Build, Teach, Lead”这三个词永久铸造在空军武器学校的官方挑战币上。Simon 动情地表示，能留下一段长久存在于硬币上的精神印记让他深感自豪。但他谦逊地强调，这并非是他凭空创造的词汇，而只是协助他们将自身处于最佳状态时的特质提炼并系统化了而已。 ### [02:05:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=7520s) 尾声与订阅呼吁 在对话圆满落幕后，Steven 面向观众分享了一组反差强烈的数据：在经常收听本节目的常客中，有高达 53% 的听众尚未点击订阅。Steven 诚恳地呼吁大家，如果喜欢节目的内容并希望支持团队，只需轻点免费的订阅按钮。作为承诺，他和制作团队将根据听众的反馈全力以赴提升每周的内容品质，邀请大家最想见到的重量级嘉宾。 ## Notable quotes > [10:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=651s) 坐船当然没问题，但也请务必学会游泳。 — Simon Sinek > [32:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=1940s) 随着阅历的增加，你失去的是恐惧。如果 ChatGPT 或任何 AI 产品替我们包办了一切，到头来你只会剩下一身恐惧。 — Simon Sinek > [39:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=2381s) 我的如释重负与好消息，恰恰同时是另一个人的绝望与灭顶之灾。 — Simon Sinek > [47:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=2870s) 在 80% 的高度上失败，远比在 30% 的低水平上成功要好得多。 — Simon Sinek > [55:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3333s) 我们买的从来不是产品，而是故事。 — Simon Sinek > [01:05:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=3918s) 走错路太容易了，而走对路需要付出巨大的努力。 — Simon Sinek > [01:08:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4081s) 摩擦创造自由（Friction creates freedom）。 — Steven Bartlett > [01:11:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4261s) 社群是一群同意共同成长的人。 — Simon Sinek > [01:22:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=4970s) 拥有一个真正关心你的人，才是远离孤独的根本基石。 — Simon Sinek > [01:44:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6288s) 选那家你最能与之痛痛快快争吵的出版社。 — Simon Sinek > [01:53:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug&t=6783s) 友谊才是终极的生物黑客（Friendship is the ultimate bio hack）。 — Simon Sinek ## Mentioned Simon Sinek, Steven Bartlett, ChatGPT, OpenAI, Sam Altman, Worldcoin, Mustafa Suleyman, Reid Hoffman, Scooter Braun, James Carse, Whitney Wolfe Herd, Bumble, John Mills, Watch Duty, Joseph Campbell, Evan Spiegel, Snapchat, Dennis Glennon, Peter Tomassio, Pamela Maffitt, United States Air Force Weapons School, Start With Why, Leaders Eat Last, The Infinite Game, Clicks, Ekster, Perfect Ted, Apple, Microsoft, Loro Piana ## Video description What if AI isn’t just a tool - but the greatest threat to human connection we’ve ever faced? Simon Sinek is a world-renowned entrepreneur, optimism expert, and founder of The Optimism Company, a platform which teaches human skills to leaders and organisations. He is also the bestselling author of books such as, ‘Start With Why’ and ‘Leaders Eat Last’.  He explains:  ▫️Why modern politics is killing your sense of purpose. ▫️Why we’ve forgotten how to be a good friend.   ▫️How AI will create a generation of helpless humans.  ▫️The number one secret skill AI can’t learn.  ▫️How human skills like empathy are vanishing.  00:00 Intro 02:22 Biggest Forces of Change in Society 05:52 Is AI Cause for Concern? 12:42 Authenticity in the Age of AI 18:25 Skills Needed in the Evolving World of AI 19:55 Is Universal Basic Income a Solution to AI-Driven Job Loss? 20:45 UBI’s Impact on Meaning and Purpose 24:22 The Uncertain Future of AI 25:35 The Race for AI Dominance 28:13 AI’s Long-Term Impact on People’s Lives 32:20 Preparing Young People for the Future of AI 35:14 Importance of Gratitude in a World of Unlimited Possibilities 45:23 Importance of Relationships 47:50 Importance of Failure 48:54 Learning Through Experience and Resourcefulness 53:39 Why Struggle Is a Good Thing 55:33 People Buy the Story, Not the Product 59:25 Scale Breaks Things 1:02:24 Ads 1:03:29 Self-Love as a Key to Successful Relationships 1:05:18 Why Wrong Is Easier 1:09:02 Friction Creates Freedom 1:11:05 Building Community in the Age of AI 1:13:32 What Holds a Community Together? 1:16:44 Staying True to Your Values 1:20:34 Does Lack of Meaning and Purpose Lead to Loneliness? 1:22:09 Loneliness by Gender 1:22:54 Mental Health and Likelihood of Loneliness 1:25:02 How to Find Companionship When Lonely 1:30:25 Curiosity as a Key to Building Connection 1:32:15 Importance of Staying in Touch With Your Emotions 1:36:07 Drop in Automation-Related Job Postings 1:37:53 AI as an Opportunity to Discover New Hobbies and Skills 1:42:02 What Simon Is Struggling With Right Now 1:46:05 Choosing the Right Person to Fight With 1:48:10 Self-Reliance as a Career Foundation 1:53:03 Why Simon Wrote a Book About Friendship 1:55:57 How to Know if Someone Is a Friend 1:57:17 Following Up With People You Connect With 2:00:54 Mentoring Someone Behind You 2:02:45 The Challenge Coins 2:12:53 What Simon Misses About Being in a Relationship 👀 28.05.2025. Be the first to know: https://bit.ly/circle-youtube Follow Simon: Instagram - https://bit.ly/3z0riRb Twitter - https://bit.ly/45jgWrz You can purchase the 15th Anniversary Edition of Simon’s book, ‘Start With Why’, here: https://bit.ly/3SOMdx3 The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb Get email updates: https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt Follow Steven: https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Linkedin Ads - https://www.linkedin.com/DIARY Ekster - http://partner.ekster.com/DOAC with code STEVEN Perfect Ted - https://www.perfectted.com with code STEVEN40 for 40% off" [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=W4tqbEmplug)

[10:51] Simon Sinek: 坐船当然没问题，但也请务必学会游泳。 [32:20] Simon Sinek: 随着阅历的增加，你失去的是恐惧。如果 ChatGPT 或任何 AI 产品替我们包办了一切，到头来你只会剩下一身恐惧。 [39:41] Simon Sinek: 我的如释重负与好消息，恰恰同时是另一个人的绝望与灭顶之灾。 [47:50] Simon Sinek: 在 80% 的高度上失败，远比在 30% 的低水平上成功要好得多。 [55:33] Simon Sinek: 我们买的从来不是产品，而是故事。 [65:18] Simon Sinek: 走错路太容易了，而走对路需要付出巨大的努力。 [68:01] Steven Bartlett: 摩擦创造自由（Friction creates freedom）。 [71:01] Simon Sinek: 社群是一群同意共同成长的人。 [82:50] Simon Sinek: 拥有一个真正关心你的人，才是远离孤独的根本基石。 [104:48] Simon Sinek: 选那家你最能与之痛痛快快争吵的出版社。 [113:03] Simon Sinek: 友谊才是终极的生物黑客（Friendship is the ultimate bio hack）。

[0:00] Simon Sinek: What makes people beautiful is not that we get everything right; it's that we get many things wrong. [19:55] Simon Sinek: Isn't it ironic that they want to do a universal basic income now that the knowledge workers are losing their jobs, but when the factory workers were losing their jobs, those same people were massively against these kinds of things? [47:50] Simon Sinek: Failing at 80% is really much better than succeeding at 30%. [90:25] Simon Sinek: The ability to listen and be curious, even if you disagree, is one of the most underappreciated skills on the planet. [101:55] Simon Sinek: You realize we fake—we fake or we add fake urgency to things. [105:23] Simon Sinek: Choose the publisher you're going to fight with best... The goal is to make a good book. There's going to be creative tension. There's going to be fights. [108:10] Peter Tomassio: Better to get shaved by the bullet than hit by the bullet. [113:03] Simon Sinek: The one thing that fixes all of those things is friends. Friendship is the ultimate biohack. [122:45] Simon Sinek: build, teach, lead

[0:00] Let's say you have a fight with your [0:01] girlfriend. You want to do the right [0:02] thing. So, you go to chat GPT and you'd [0:04] be like, this is exactly what happened. [0:05] Tell me what to do. And you go, babe, I [0:07] just want you to know I want to take [0:08] full accountability and I care about [0:09] this relationship. And she says, did you [0:11] get this answer from chat GPT? And you [0:12] go, I did. [0:13] How's that going to go? [0:15] Now, you did everything right. But what [0:17] makes people beautiful is not that we [0:19] get everything right. It's that we get [0:21] many things wrong. And I think in the [0:22] modern world we live in, we forget that. [0:24] Simon Sinek is back. [0:26] He's the visionary thinker inspiring [0:28] millions to cultivate human connection. [0:30] Find their purpose and overcome any [0:32] modern-day challenges. [0:34] So, with AI and GPT, do you think it [0:35] really is cause for concern and deeper [0:37] thought? [0:37] So, I'm not in the AI business, but I am [0:39] in the humanity business. And here's the [0:40] problem that we never talk about. People [0:42] keep telling us, life is not about the [0:44] destination, life is about the journey. [0:46] But when we think about AI, we only [0:47] think about the destination and its [0:48] remarkable ability to write the book, [0:50] paint the painting, solve the problem. [0:52] But we forget the importance of doing [0:53] the work yourself. And I think in our [0:55] modern day and age, we have [0:57] underrepresented the value of struggle. [0:58] I am smarter, better at problem-solving, [1:01] more resourceful, not because a book [1:03] exists with my ideas in it, but because [1:05] I wrote it. That excruciating journey is [1:08] what made me grow. But it's the same for [1:09] love, friendships, [1:10] conflict. [1:11] And I think that we forget that we give [1:13] up certain skills or abilities because [1:15] of technology, but it's like saying AI [1:17] will provide boats for everyone except [1:19] for the time there's a storm and you [1:21] don't know how to swim. [1:23] And unless we take personal [1:25] accountability to teach and learn human [1:26] skills, they will disappear. Sure, you [1:28] can have an AI friend and train like the [1:30] best psychologist to affirm you, the [1:32] best listening skills that exist, but my [1:34] ability to know what to do when my [1:35] friend is struggling, my ability to [1:36] function in the world or my ability to [1:38] cope with stress. These very, very human [1:40] skills are suffering. [1:42] So, what are the other skills that we [1:43] need to equip ourselves with based on [1:45] the way that the world is heading? [1:46] Two things. One is [1:50] This has always blown my mind a little [1:51] bit. 53% of you that listen to this show [1:54] regularly haven't yet subscribed to this [1:56] show. So, could I ask you for a favor [1:58] before we start? If you like the show [1:59] and you like what we do here and you [2:00] want to support us, the free simple way [2:02] that you can do just that is by hitting [2:04] the subscribe button. And my commitment [2:06] to you is if you do that, then I'll do [2:07] everything in my power, me and my team, [2:09] to make sure that this show is better [2:10] for you every single week. We'll listen [2:12] to your feedback, we'll find the guests [2:14] that you want me to speak to, and we'll [2:16] continue to do what we do. Thank you so [2:17] much. [2:21] Simon. [2:23] Good to see you again. We are live. [2:27] It's just familiar. [2:29] Familiar. [2:31] It's so interesting cuz when I sit down [2:32] to talk to you, you're one of the very [2:33] few people that I don't come with a [2:35] preconception as to what we're going to [2:36] talk about. But but I I come with a [2:39] feeling. [2:40] And the feeling that I bring forth is [2:42] the feeling of change and transition. [2:46] I have lived for 32 years, but I don't [2:48] think I can ever think of a time where [2:51] the future has felt [2:53] unclear, uncertain, scary, exciting, and [3:01] I guess unknown. And I don't just mean [3:03] with with technology, but technology is [3:06] one protagonist in the story, and [3:07] there's many other social stories [3:09] playing out from politics to [3:11] relationships, to all of these things. [3:12] So, my first question to you, Simon, is [3:15] what are those things? What are the [3:17] biggest forces of changes that you see [3:19] happening at the moment in all of our [3:20] lives that you think we should probably [3:22] talk about today? [3:24] That is a big question. [3:26] And I think one of the mistakes we make, [3:30] and this is in general, [3:32] is we like things to be very neatly [3:34] organized. We like them to be black and [3:35] white, yes or no, right or wrong. [3:38] And as you know, the world is messier [3:41] than that. It is more nuanced than that. [3:43] And nothing operates in a vacuum, [3:45] everything is connected to everything. [3:46] Especially in a in a world that's filled [3:50] with [3:51] this rising technology called the [3:52] internet and this burgeoning technology [3:54] called the social media and desires and [3:57] feeling like belonging become more and [3:59] more important. We're struggling to find [4:01] them. Loneliness epidemic, stress [4:03] epidemic, suicide epidemics. These are [4:05] all feelings of disconnection, lack of [4:06] control, and loneliness. [4:08] And so that only exaggerates our feeling [4:10] of loneliness and despair and wanting [4:12] more and etc. etc. etc. And then you add [4:14] in AI. [4:15] And now those feelings of insecurity are [4:17] just exaggerated like crazy. [4:19] Right? [4:20] So now I find AI there's an irony to AI. [4:23] Right? So if you go back to the 70s and [4:26] 80s, right? You had the rise of [4:28] robotics. And so robots are now coming [4:30] into our factories and we're able to cut [4:35] employees by dramatic amounts [4:38] and we put people out on the street who [4:40] they're they worked in a factory, their [4:43] their father worked in a factory, their [4:44] father's father worked in a factory. [4:45] Like this is this is what they know. And [4:47] they say, "But these robots are changing [4:49] they're taking our jobs." [4:51] And the ruling classes and the and the [4:53] Wall Street classes and the CEO classes, [4:56] they go, "Yeah, I know. Technology. [4:59] You're going to have to find a new [4:59] skill. Reskill. Reskill. That's what [5:01] you're going to do. Reskill." Okay, [5:02] flash forward to AI. Here's where the [5:04] irony comes in. Cuz the world is always [5:07] nature pours vacuum and life seeks [5:08] balance at all times, right? [5:10] Not always immediately, but it seeks [5:12] balance at all times. It's always [5:13] seeking equilibrium. Okay, so flash [5:15] forward to AI. [5:16] Now you hear [5:18] the knowledge workers. [5:20] It's the knowledge workers who are [5:21] going, "My job." It's the coders. [5:24] It's the [5:25] finance people. "My job." [5:28] The plumber is not worried about AI [5:30] at all. [5:32] The baggage handler at the airport cares [5:34] zero about AI. [5:36] And so maybe the right response is [5:39] it's the future, man. It's technology. [5:40] Reskill. Reskill. You know? Maybe maybe [5:43] become a plumber. You you [5:45] By the way, money's really good. You get [5:47] to work for yourself if you want, you [5:48] know? [5:49] Um so, I just find the pendulum kind of [5:51] funny. [5:53] With AI, do you think it's overblown or [5:55] do you think it really [5:57] is cause for [5:58] concern and deeper thought? [6:00] The honest answer is [6:02] I don't know. [6:03] Mhm. [6:04] Everybody falls on one side of you're [6:07] over you're over you're you know, the [6:08] sky is not falling chill chicken little [6:11] or the sky is falling and we're all [6:13] going to die, right? [6:15] The The truth like most things is [6:17] probably somewhere in the middle. [6:19] But the the real answer is I don't know [6:21] and neither does anybody else. [6:22] Yeah. [6:23] And it seems that we should have some [6:25] sort of controls cuz we didn't put any [6:27] controls on the internet. [6:28] Mhm. [6:28] They did put controls on the internet in [6:30] China. [6:31] Like children don't have the same access [6:33] to [6:34] uh social media like kids do here. [6:36] Europe has controls on the internet. [6:40] And America doesn't. [6:42] And we're the ones that seem to be [6:43] suffering more because of the lack of [6:46] controls on the internet. [6:47] Mhm. [6:48] So, I think some some And by the way, [6:51] when people you know, talk about [6:52] deregulation and no controls, I mean [6:54] they make us wear seat belts in our [6:55] cars. [6:56] Yeah. [6:56] You know, there's nothing we have speed [6:58] limits. [6:59] You know, and and it's for the greater [7:01] good and yeah, sure your seat belt's [7:03] uncomfortable but you'll get used to it. [7:05] Like [7:06] and it's fine, you know? So, I I think [7:09] the call for no reform is is wrong. [7:12] Um there are [7:13] correct limits to keep things safe. [7:15] Mhm. [7:16] I'm fascinated by AI, both the benefits [7:18] and the weaknesses of it. [7:21] But it is revealing to me [7:24] something [7:26] more important than [7:28] what other people are talking about. [7:31] Which is we're [7:32] we're a results obsessed society, right? [7:37] Yeah. [7:38] We care about output, we care about [7:39] performance, we care about numbers, we [7:41] care about final product more than [7:43] anything. Right? And when people talk [7:45] about AI, they talk about its remarkable [7:48] ability to write the symphony, paint the [7:50] painting, [7:51] write the book, write the article, [7:54] uh solve the problem. Like it it is And [7:57] by the way, [7:58] the technology is incredible. I asked it [8:00] only a few months ago [8:02] to please take this and put it in the [8:03] style of me. And it was [8:06] it was fine. I did it with a friend of [8:07] mine who's also an author, and we both [8:09] did it for ourselves. We did it on each [8:10] other. It was really fun. [8:11] And it was fine. I don't think it was [8:13] good. It was [8:14] It was It gave me a good start and I [8:15] could edit it. [8:17] I did it recently. We both did it. [8:19] It was damn near flawless. [8:20] It was [8:22] it was scary good. Right? [8:25] Now, AI doesn't know the thing I'm [8:27] thinking about. It doesn't know that the [8:29] next book I'm going to write about is [8:30] friendship. It doesn't know the point of [8:31] view I'm going to have on friendship. If [8:32] you ask it, "What would Simon Sinek say [8:33] about friendship?" It's going to be, [8:34] "Why this and why that?" You know? So, [8:36] it's derivative, right? We know that. [8:38] It's not original. We know that. [8:40] But at the end of the day, the work is [8:41] good. The symphony's good. The art is [8:43] good. The article is good. The book is [8:45] decent. Like it's getting better and [8:46] better and better. But here's the [8:48] problem that we keep not talking about. [8:50] People keep telling us that life is not [8:52] about the destination. Life is about the [8:54] journey. That's what we keep being told, [8:56] right? [8:58] But when we think about AI, we only [9:00] think about the destination. We only [9:01] think about the output. We never think [9:02] about the input, right? I can tell you [9:05] that and you and I can both say the same [9:07] thing, [9:08] which is I am smarter, [9:11] better at problem-solving, [9:13] more resourceful, [9:15] better at pattern rec- pattern [9:16] recognition, not because an a a book [9:19] exists with my ideas in it, but because [9:21] I wrote it. [9:23] The excruciating pain [9:25] of organizing ideas, putting them in a [9:27] linear fashion, [9:29] trying to put them in a way that other [9:31] people can understand what I'm trying to [9:32] get out of my brain, that excruciating [9:34] journey [9:35] is what made me grow. [9:37] And sure, you can have an AI friend. And [9:40] that AI friend has been trained like the [9:42] best best psychologist to affirm you, [9:45] the best listening skills that exist. [9:47] Tell me about your day. Mm, that sounds [9:49] difficult. Mm, boy, it's hard being you. [9:51] Oh my god, it's so great being you. Have [9:53] you you know, like it's it's a it's an [9:55] affirmation machine built by a [9:57] for-profit company that wants you to [9:58] stay on. Can't neglect that. [10:02] But for the fact that nobody's learning [10:04] how to be a friend. [10:06] It'll feel good. You'll feel like you [10:08] have a friend, but you're not learning [10:09] to be a friend. [10:11] Right? And it's the [10:13] what made you a great entrepreneur is [10:15] not that the company exists. [10:17] Is that you built it with your hands and [10:19] you got the scars to show for it. [10:21] Yeah. [10:21] It was when things went wrong and you [10:23] were forced to fix them and think that [10:25] now, when problems show up, [10:28] you're quick, you're smarter. You're a [10:29] much smarter businessman now than you [10:32] were 5 years ago. [10:34] 6 years ago. [10:35] Yeah. [10:35] Because you did it. And I think what [10:37] we're forgetting is that there's [10:39] something to be said for And by the way, [10:40] I'm a fan of AI. I want AI to make [10:43] things. [10:44] But I would hate to lose out on becoming [10:46] a better version of me. [10:48] And I think that um [10:51] to really learn to grow. And by the way, [10:54] I used to have a steel trap for phone [10:56] numbers. I knew everybody's phone [10:57] number. [10:59] And then all of a sudden my phone [11:01] my PDA [11:03] God, I don't need to memorize a phone [11:04] number anymore. I don't know most of the [11:06] people that I love, I don't know their [11:07] phone numbers. I type their name in. [11:10] Right? I just have to know their name. [11:11] And so, my brain literally went on [11:13] strike. It said, "Fine. [11:15] Fine. You no longer have the capacity to [11:17] remember phone numbers." And I can't [11:18] remember phone numbers to save my life. [11:20] Right? So, we give up certain skills or [11:23] abilities because of technology [11:24] regularly. Right? That's fine. I don't [11:27] have a problem with any of those things [11:28] because whether I can remember a phone [11:30] number or not will not affect my [11:31] relationships, my ability to function in [11:33] the world, or my ability to cope with [11:34] stress. [11:36] But my ability [11:38] to know what to do when my friend is [11:40] struggling. [11:42] My ability to know what to do when I [11:44] have a fight with my spouse [11:46] my or my partner. [11:49] My ability to know what to do when my [11:52] boss yells at me, but I don't want to [11:53] escalate it, or [11:56] my employee is acting out and I don't [11:58] want to escalate it or fire them. [12:00] Well, how do I resolve this? [12:03] I've missed out on those skills. And [12:04] simply asking AI, "How should I resolve [12:07] this thing?" It'll give you an answer [12:08] and it may work, and you've learned [12:09] nothing. [12:11] Right? And so it's the difference [12:13] between It's It's It's like saying AI [12:14] will provide boats for everyone. [12:18] Except for the time [12:19] there's a storm [12:21] and you don't know how to swim. [12:23] And [12:24] I'm okay use the boat. [12:26] Mhm. Also learn to swim. So I think [12:28] there's something to be said for writing [12:29] your own symphony, [12:31] painting your own painting, [12:33] building your own business, [12:34] you know, [12:36] writing your own book. Not for them, not [12:38] for the output. Not for the output. [12:41] For your personal growth. [12:42] Before I got here today, I was writing a [12:46] post for LinkedIn and I was trying to [12:47] make the case that [12:49] everybody using ChatGPT to write their [12:52] emails, their social media posts, their [12:54] investment pitches that I received [12:57] had is now making the internet feel [12:59] really inauthentic because [13:01] people that I want I knew for many many [13:03] years are now sending me these perfect [13:05] cookie cutter emails with words that [13:08] I've never heard them use before. [13:09] course. [13:10] And so when I read it, my brain mentally [13:11] discounts it as not being their opinion, [13:14] not actually being them. [13:15] Yeah. [13:15] And when you feel like you're speaking [13:16] to someone's AI [13:18] the meaning is gone. So I was I was [13:20] writing this post about how actually now [13:22] there's this premium on human written [13:24] language. Like if you make a couple of [13:26] mistakes and you use the old words, you [13:28] don't use words like forged and robust. [13:31] I'd like to forge a partnership with [13:33] you, Stephen. [13:35] Furthermore, can we I'm like you you [13:37] never said that to me, mate. [13:39] You know the the end dashes. [13:41] Oh my gosh. [13:42] It's funny, right? [13:43] It's crazy. [13:44] Yeah. [13:44] But you but you you're talking about [13:46] what you're talking about. Have you ever [13:47] heard of the Japanese concept of um uh [13:51] uh [13:52] wabi-sabi? [13:52] No. [13:53] So, wabi-sabi is a Japanese design [13:55] concept, which is beauty in that which [13:57] is temporary or imperfect. [14:00] Okay? So, have you ever seen Japanese [14:02] ceramics? [14:02] Yeah. [14:03] They're wonky. [14:04] Or the the the glaze is not even. [14:07] Yeah. [14:07] And they're beautiful. You know why? [14:08] Because they're handmade. [14:10] Tree bark, trees. You know, when you [14:12] have a wooden bowl, [14:14] wood is beautiful. Why? It's imperfect. [14:18] Right? Think and unique. Things made on [14:21] a machine [14:22] are the same [14:24] and less beautiful. And things made by [14:27] hand are beautiful because they're [14:30] imperfect. What makes people beautiful [14:33] is not that we get everything right. [14:35] It's that we get many things wrong. And [14:38] what makes us fall in love [14:40] is not the person who's perfect. It's [14:42] the person who accepts our [14:43] imperfections, and we know we're in love [14:45] when we learn to accept theirs. Not [14:47] learn to, want to. [14:49] Right? And you're 100% right. I now know [14:52] in the art world, artists are being [14:54] asked to sign affidavits [14:57] that say, "I painted this. [15:00] I made this. [15:01] Not AI. Not because it's better or [15:04] worse. [15:05] It's because I want to know it was [15:07] touched by human hands. [15:09] And so, I think you're right. What will [15:10] happen is everything will be so perfect [15:14] that it'll be as if we're all [15:16] driving or using things that everything [15:19] came off a conveyor belt. [15:21] Mhm. [15:22] And what we will start to desire is [15:23] things that are made by hand because by [15:25] the way, we think Rolls-Royce, Ferrari. [15:29] You takes 39 months to get a Ferrari. [15:31] You know why? It was made by hand. [15:33] Yeah. [15:34] Right? And one of the things that makes [15:36] it expensive is the technology and the [15:37] carbon fiber and all that. But the other [15:39] thing is it's slow and was made by [15:41] people. [15:43] Human error, the value of human error. [15:44] The value of human error. [15:45] Scooter Braun said to me the other day, [15:47] he said um [15:49] we could watch a computer play chess [15:51] with another computer. He goes, "But the [15:54] the chess games that have the highest [15:56] demand are one human versus another [15:57] because when a computer plays a [15:59] computer, the moves are predictable and [16:00] they're the same and they're perfect. [16:02] But it's the human error of two human [16:04] chess players who are worse, objectively [16:05] worse at chess, that makes it so [16:07] fascinating." [16:08] Yes, it's [16:09] and that's any sporting event. Any [16:11] sporting event. It's not the perfection [16:13] of the game, it's the error that loses [16:14] the game that adds the drama. And [16:17] and and it's like trying not to make a [16:19] mistake is as powerful as trying to get [16:21] everything right. And it's the humanity [16:23] of the sport, the humanity of the [16:24] competition. It is the imperfection and [16:26] I think that we forget as people what [16:28] makes us beautiful. Like when you go on [16:29] a first date [16:30] Mhm. [16:31] or a first interview, [16:32] Mhm. [16:33] all you do is present perfection. [16:35] Mhm. [16:36] Put on my my best clothes, [16:39] you know, dressed up. I know I don't [16:40] dress like this every day. I dressed up [16:42] on my date, right? My interview, I don't [16:45] wear this. This is what I wore for my [16:46] interview cuz I want to put out a good [16:48] impression. And I practiced and I and I [16:51] make myself confident I've got a great [16:53] job and I've got a great personality and [16:54] I love my mother and my goodness and [16:56] everything's great. And then you get in [16:57] the relationship, you get the job and [16:58] you become a slob. [17:00] Right? [17:01] This is what AI is. It's it's [17:03] it's to your point, it's [17:06] it's fake. [17:07] Mhm. [17:07] It's on the interview example, the [17:09] minute you start describing that, I [17:11] immediately flash back to an interview I [17:12] had last week at our company where a [17:14] young kid walks in wearing a suit and I [17:16] thought, "Now I I have no idea who you [17:18] are [17:19] because I know that's not you. I know [17:21] that you don't wear a suit. You're 22 [17:23] years old. You do not wear a suit. So, I [17:25] have no indication, I have no clues as [17:28] to who you are, and therefore, it's [17:30] harder for me to figure out if you fit [17:31] here. And I think of because what he [17:33] tried to do that was show up perfect how [17:36] he what he thought perfect was, [17:38] and in some ways to hide who he actually [17:40] was. Whereas, this is why I like now on [17:42] the internet sloppy text. I like [17:44] grammatical mistakes. [17:45] But you at the same time you don't want [17:46] him to show up and put his feet on to [17:48] kick his shoes off and put his feet on [17:49] the table, either. [17:50] In the same way that [17:51] There's an element of respect you want, [17:53] and you want somebody in their first [17:54] interview to put on some effort. Now, [17:55] too much effort [17:57] Yeah. [17:57] is [17:59] pretty inauthentic, but too little [18:00] effort [18:02] what's that? [18:02] This is my diagram. You've got perfect [18:05] Yeah. [18:06] on one end, which is low, and then [18:08] you've got poor, which is also low. The [18:09] sweet spot [18:10] Yeah. [18:11] is right here in the middle. [18:12] Yeah, well, I think there's some truth [18:13] to that. And so, [18:15] there's a level of you know, like it's [18:17] the same thing as like we all want [18:18] vulnerability in our relationships, but [18:19] not on the first day. [18:21] Like I don't need to know that quite [18:23] yet. [18:24] You know? [18:25] What are the other skills that you think [18:27] we need to equip ourselves with based on [18:30] the way that the world is heading? [18:31] Because with you know, [18:33] like the calculator came along, and we [18:34] no longer needed to be able to do [18:36] complicated math. [18:37] I've completely forgotten my times [18:38] tables. [18:38] I can't spell anymore. It's all fine. I [18:40] said to my friends, "The most I can do [18:41] is 9 * 9. That's like the top end of my [18:44] range." [18:45] But with spelling, it's the same. I get [18:46] like half the word correct, and then I [18:48] don't know what they are, and it doesn't [18:49] But but again, uh you know, [18:51] So, what are those skills that [18:52] I think it's all human skills. I think [18:53] there needs So, I think where the world [18:55] is going to go, and at least this is [18:56] where I'm taking a bet, [18:58] is that as the end product becomes [19:01] easier to produce, [19:02] it's the humanity that's going to [19:03] suffer. [19:05] And unless we take personal [19:07] accountability both as individuals and [19:09] organizations to teach and learn human [19:11] skills, they will disappear for all the [19:13] reasons we're talking about. So, how do [19:15] I listen? [19:17] How do I hold space? [19:19] How do I resolve conflict peacefully? [19:21] How do I give and how do I receive [19:23] feedback? Those are all two different [19:25] skills. [19:26] How do I have an effective [19:27] confrontation? You pissed me off. [19:29] Do I know how to approach you as a [19:31] friend, as a colleague without creating [19:34] a massive fight or losing a friendship [19:36] over it? Um how to take accountability, [19:38] how to express empathy. These skills, [19:40] these very, very human skills are the [19:43] things that we're already starting to [19:44] see [19:45] just with the internet and social media [19:47] um are suffering. And so, I think AI [19:50] will only exaggerate the loss of those [19:51] skills, and those skills are more [19:53] important than learning how to spell. [19:55] One of the concerning things was I heard [19:57] Sam Altman, who's the founder of OpenAI [19:59] and ChatGPT, launch this thing called [20:01] Worldcoin a couple of years ago when [20:03] ChatGPT really started taking off. And [20:06] it has been closely tied to the concept [20:08] of universal basic income. [20:10] Mhm. [20:11] The idea, the overarching idea is that [20:13] in a world where AI and automation [20:15] eliminate many jobs, UBI may be [20:17] necessary. Worldcoin is one way to help [20:21] implement it. That was stated by the [20:23] founder of ChatGPT, Sam Altman. [20:24] Yeah. I just again, I'll go back to my [20:26] ironic statement before. Isn't it ironic [20:29] that they want to do a a universal [20:31] income, a standard universal income, now [20:33] that the knowledge workers are losing [20:34] their jobs, but when the factory workers [20:35] were losing their jobs, [20:37] those same people were massively against [20:41] uh [20:41] uh these kinds of things. So, [20:44] I mean, yes. [20:45] What happens to purpose [20:46] it's ironic. [20:47] and meaning if we're being cuz for [20:49] anybody that doesn't know what universal [20:50] basic income is, the idea is the [20:52] government, the state, whatever would [20:53] pay you a certain amount of money every [20:55] single [20:55] salary. [20:56] So, $2,000, $3,000, whatever it might [20:58] be. [20:58] Yeah. [20:59] Um because they don't think [21:01] many of us are going to have There's not [21:02] going to be enough jobs to go around. [21:04] And I wonder what happens to purpose and [21:06] meaning and pursuing challenge and all [21:08] these things [21:09] in a world where we're just being handed [21:10] money? [21:11] So, we're not being given wealth. [21:13] There's a difference. We're being given [21:16] survival money, right? And so, you know, [21:19] you know, we have to be very careful [21:21] that says, you know, everybody who's on [21:22] welfare is lazy. You know, that's not [21:24] true, you know? So, we have to be very [21:25] careful that just because we give [21:27] somebody something doesn't mean that [21:29] they cease to have ambition or purpose [21:31] or drive. It's like somebody who who [21:34] makes a a commission salary, commission, [21:36] you know, works on commission and they [21:37] make just enough to pay their rent and [21:39] buy food and that's it. Like, that's a [21:42] lot that's a lack of ambition, you know? [21:44] The cases, [21:45] at least the people I've heard talk [21:47] about it, they make a compelling case [21:49] for it, especially in a world where [21:51] there is plenty of wealth. [21:53] Um, but, you know, I don't know enough [21:55] about it to make an argument for or [21:57] against it, if I'm honest. Um, but I do [21:59] find it ironic [22:00] that [22:01] the Sam Altmans of the world are calling [22:03] for it, given the fact that it's there's [22:04] going to be so many job losses when it's [22:06] jobs of their kind. And like, I also [22:07] think that's funny. Like, what's going [22:09] to happen [22:10] when [22:11] Sam Altman's product gets good enough [22:14] that he can lay off most of his staff? [22:18] Just curious. [22:20] What happens? [22:23] He has made a point of having, I think [22:26] it's 100 people or less in his company. [22:29] He doesn't have like a big team. And I [22:31] think part of that is because when I [22:32] heard his TED Talk a couple of days ago, [22:34] he's saying, yeah, I think AGI is sooner [22:36] than we think, actually. And I think [22:37] we're going to have a fast takeoff, [22:39] which means it's going to arrive very [22:40] quickly and accelerate very quickly. So, [22:42] I think he's actually preparing not to. [22:44] Yeah, but when happen what happens to [22:45] the 90 people he lays off? [22:48] When he doesn't need 100, he only needs [22:49] 10. [22:50] Th- This is the question. [22:51] I'm just curious. I don't know. And this [22:53] is why anybody who has an opinion about [22:54] it, the answer is we don't know. But, I [22:55] think people react very differently when [22:57] it's their job on the line. [23:00] Mhm. When it's their income on the line. [23:01] When it's their pride. When it's their [23:04] ego. [23:05] You know? I keep hearing from companies, [23:08] I mean, you we were talking about this [23:09] before we turn on the cameras. You know, [23:12] you know, you talk to if you want a new [23:13] website, [23:15] you I guarantee you I don't I don't care [23:16] which company you talk to, they will all [23:18] talk about how they AI this, AI that, [23:21] and you ask the question, are you using [23:22] AI? Yes, we're using AI, we're doing it [23:24] differently, we're the future, blah blah [23:25] blah. [23:26] And then you ask them for a proposal, [23:28] it's going to look like all the other [23:29] proposals from 2015. [23:32] You know? And this is how many hours [23:34] it's going to take our people to program [23:36] this and code this. And I was like, what [23:37] happened to all the AI? Why is this [23:40] slow and expensive [23:42] when everything's supposed to be fast [23:43] and inexpensive? [23:44] Because they're taking the margin. [23:46] Of course they're taking the margin. And [23:48] and they've got a lot of people doing [23:49] things the old-fashioned way because [23:51] the business model, you know, pe- people [23:52] work very hard to put The status quo [23:54] exists [23:56] because there are people who benefit [23:57] from the status quo. [23:58] You know, that's why there is a status [24:00] quo. [24:01] And it's uh and you know, like I said, [24:02] everybody's into change the future, you [24:05] know, until it's until it's them [24:08] that's threatened. [24:09] Or their income. [24:10] The billionaires that I that I know, the [24:12] one consistent thing they've whispered [24:14] to me about AI is that [24:16] people are going to have a lot of free [24:17] time. [24:18] That's one of the things that's been [24:19] really consistent. You're so right when [24:21] you say that when I asked you about the [24:22] future of AI, you said, "I don't know." [24:24] The reason why I know that's probably [24:25] the correct answer generally is because [24:27] when I sat with the most advanced people [24:28] in AI, whether it's Mustafa who's head [24:30] of Microsoft AI, now CEO of Microsoft [24:32] AI, or people from Google, or the CEO of [24:35] Google, or Reid Hoffman who's the [24:38] founder of LinkedIn, they all had [24:40] different opinions. [24:41] Which made me to think actually the [24:43] right answer is nobody knows. [24:44] The right answer is nobody That is [24:45] correct. And and and you always be be be [24:48] aware of the messenger, right? Like you [24:49] won't have anybody who owns an AI [24:51] company talking doomsday scenarios. [24:54] It's not in their economic interest, [24:55] even if they secretly harbor that. It's [24:57] like people who [24:58] used to run cigarette companies didn't [24:59] smoke and let them they didn't let their [25:01] family smoke. It's like I remember [25:03] visiting Facebook in the earlier days [25:05] and they [25:07] I went into the cafeteria and they had [25:08] like [25:09] like picnic benches. [25:11] And I was like and they were telling me [25:13] with pride how they have these communal [25:15] eating areas to help people maintain [25:18] relationship. And I was like this is [25:20] hilarious. You literally have a product [25:22] that breaks relationships and yet you [25:24] understand enough to make people eat [25:25] together at lunchtime so that they'll [25:27] maintain relationship. I mean [25:30] the point being if your economic [25:31] interest, you know, show me how [25:32] someone's paid and I'll show you how [25:33] they behave. [25:35] You know. [25:35] One of the scariest conversations I was [25:37] privy to was one a friend of mine who's [25:39] a billionaire in London he knows the CEO [25:42] of one of the biggest AI companies in [25:44] the world who I can't name and he said [25:45] by the way what he tells me in private [25:47] is not what he's saying in publicly. [25:49] Yeah. [25:49] I he he said to me that what this [25:51] particular CEO thinks is going to happen [25:53] with AI is pretty horrific. And the CEO [25:56] of this big AI company is totally cool [25:58] with it. It's It's and it's horrific [26:00] what he thinks is about to happen. And [26:01] then when I watch this guy do his like [26:03] online talks and give his opinion he's [26:05] so nuanced and everything will be fine [26:07] and he's an AI optimist. Then I heard [26:09] this scenario at this kitchen table in [26:11] East London from his friend about what [26:13] he really thinks and it was [26:15] chilling. [26:15] Yeah. [26:16] Like actually the lack of empathy [26:17] Yeah. [26:18] That makes sense to me. [26:19] the the obsession with power [26:22] was shocking to me. [26:23] Yeah. The obsession with power and money [26:25] and all the rest of it. Yeah. [26:26] But this is because the internet has [26:28] done something really strange [26:30] and and challenged one of my theories [26:33] head-on, right? So I talk about in an [26:36] infinite game [26:37] you know, Jim Jim Carse his theory. You [26:40] know, in an infinite game there's no [26:41] winners or losers, right? And so like [26:43] nobody wins, you know, [26:46] fast food. [26:47] Nobody wins cars. Like [26:49] General Motors, Ford, Vauxhall they can [26:52] all exist at the same time, right? [26:55] And they'll have degrees of success or [26:56] not success, but they can all exist [26:58] simultaneously. No one is going to win. [27:01] The exception is in the internet. In in [27:03] the like like Amazon [27:06] it won. [27:07] Yeah. [27:07] Like you know, Google for search? [27:10] Yep, they won. [27:11] Right? And if you start going down like [27:13] the big big tech companies [27:16] there is only one. I mean, sure there's [27:17] competition, but not really, right? Who [27:20] you know, [27:21] Walmart is making a run of it to [27:22] threaten Amazon, but Amazon's still so [27:24] damn big. You know, all of these [27:26] companies that there's only one. [27:28] And [27:30] that's not good. [27:32] That you can't have winners in a in a [27:34] category. And so this is why I think the [27:36] the race for AI is so aggressive for AI [27:39] dominance is so aggressive and which is [27:41] why people are not being careful and [27:43] which is why they're not putting [27:43] controls is because the way that tech [27:46] seems to work is there probably will be [27:48] one dominant standard and then that's [27:50] it. [27:51] And the question is which one? Because I [27:53] don't think [27:55] it just seems to be the way it is. [27:57] Which is a very scary prospect to me [27:58] that the the fact that we can have [27:59] winners [28:00] is is a bad thing, especially if we if [28:02] we pride ourselves on being capitalists. [28:04] Then there cannot be there cannot be a [28:06] winner. And there cannot be one that is [28:07] so dominant that that nobody else can [28:09] even [28:10] compete except for scraps. [28:13] What are your emotions when you think [28:14] about AI and what's happening cuz [28:16] I I feel like the moment we're living in [28:19] is a profound one and that we don't [28:20] actually realize it. Because when these [28:22] tools come out, Open AI released [28:24] yesterday [28:25] 3.0, it's the best model ever. [28:28] The day after my life was the same. [28:30] So we don't really notice it cuz we go [28:31] back to work, our clients ask for the [28:32] same thing, we have the same team [28:33] members sat around us. The it almost [28:35] seems like the sand timer is rotated [28:38] and we're on a clock. [28:39] And it's a slow disruption of our [28:42] everyday lives. Sam Altman the other day [28:44] on his TED Talk two three four days ago [28:45] he in the short term everything will [28:47] appear the same, but in the long term," [28:49] he goes, "life is going to be completely [28:50] different." [28:51] that's right. I mean, and look at any [28:53] any technology like the like AI, [28:57] it was kind of the same until it wasn't. [28:59] And these are evolutions, not [29:00] revolutions. Like there's a [29:01] revolutionary bit, [29:02] Mhm. [29:02] you know? Like I remember when when the [29:04] internet showed up and like brick and [29:06] internet shopping showed up and all the [29:08] technologists were like, "It's the end [29:09] of stores. It's the end of bricks and [29:10] mortar. Like done. Like we'll never go [29:12] to a shop again." [29:14] Well, that didn't happen. Now, shops [29:16] struggle to compete against internet, [29:17] but that's a price thing. Right? That's [29:19] that's a business model thing. But we [29:20] like going shopping because again, [29:22] they've all of these companies always [29:23] forget, especially technologists, [29:26] they all forget that the end user is a [29:28] human being. And most of us [29:31] don't fully understand everything. Even [29:33] even our iPhones, most people use a a [29:35] small percentage of all the capabilities [29:37] of our iPhones. Most of us don't even [29:38] know how to change the damn settings to [29:40] make it do something we want. Right? [29:42] Even and you neither do your kids. It's [29:44] not an adult thing. Right? It's not an [29:46] old person thing. Like [29:48] and there's a few people who get more [29:50] out of it and good for them. [29:52] Some people use it just as a phone. [29:54] Fine. [29:55] And it's a bell curve. So, I think there [29:57] will be a few people and a few companies [29:59] that will get more value out of these [30:00] things than the rest of us. But I think [30:02] he's right. I think there'll be a [30:04] revolutionary bit [30:06] and then it'll settle. [30:07] I I I'm I find this whole thing [30:09] fascinating. When you ask me how do I [30:11] feel, you know, depending on what [30:12] subject I'm talking about, [30:14] absolute fear [30:16] and absolute amazement. I I I have I [30:19] have both and everything in between. [30:21] When I think about how it affects [30:22] democracy and the ability to make deep [30:24] fakes and and how it can manipulate [30:27] people and their opinions to vote one [30:29] way or another, [30:31] I have real fear. [30:32] Yeah. [30:33] Right? When it comes to like [30:35] productivity and the reshaping of [30:36] business, you know, technologists and [30:38] people who who are part of the internet [30:39] revolution, they love to say, you know, [30:42] 20 years ago, 80% of the jobs we have [30:44] now didn't exist. They love to say that, [30:46] right? But when you ask them now, [30:47] they'll [30:48] they [30:49] they they'll [30:50] they seem to think that I think it's the [30:51] same, which is all those people who are [30:53] going to lose those jobs in [30:54] white-collar, you know, in white-collar [30:55] jobs and knowledge workers. [30:57] I they they're not they're not going to [30:58] not work. There's going to be new jobs. [31:01] The IRS digitized a whole bunch of years [31:03] ago, right? They got rid of all the [31:05] accountants and they put in all the [31:06] computers, right? [31:08] Do you know how much money the IRS saved [31:10] when it when it [31:11] cha- completely changed the the way it [31:13] looked? [31:14] No. [31:14] The answer is zero. Yes, they got rid of [31:16] all the accountants and they needed to [31:17] hire all the IT people. [31:19] Mhm. [31:19] So, the the the the workforce looks [31:22] different, but it didn't get smaller. [31:25] And so, I think it's the same thing. [31:26] What it's we're we also we already know [31:29] the massive, incredible amounts of [31:31] energy [31:33] that it takes for AI to work. Data [31:35] centers that use up massive amounts of [31:38] electricity like we've never seen in our [31:39] lives. [31:40] Like nuclear has to be a thing. There [31:42] isn't enough coal or oil or solar or [31:45] wind to power these things. It just [31:48] doesn't exist. So, nuclear has to be a [31:50] thing. So, go be a nuclear engineer. Go [31:53] You want to get an advanced degree? I [31:55] don't need you to be a coder. You know, [31:56] coding was a thing for a Go be a nuke. [31:59] Cuz by the way, you got to be just as [32:00] smart to be a nuke as you have to be a a [32:02] a a a So, you're going to start to see [32:05] that. You know, you're going to see [32:06] energy work. Um [32:08] I just think the jobs will change. I [32:10] don't think they're going to like it's I [32:12] I completely One thing I do disagree [32:14] with, you know, which is not like you're [32:15] going to be a bunch of people walking [32:16] around bored. [32:17] I just think the jobs will change. [32:19] If there was a a 10-year-old kid stood [32:21] here now and the 10-year-old said to us, [32:23] said, "Guys, what do you think I should [32:26] focus on?" [32:27] I would say two things. [32:29] Um [32:31] uh one is going back to human skills. [32:33] Learn how to be a good friend to your [32:35] friends. [32:35] Okay, how do I learn that? [32:37] You're going to really need that. How [32:38] does a 10-year-old learn that or how do [32:39] you and I learn that? [32:41] Both. [32:41] A 10-year-old learns it that when they [32:43] go and have a playdate at a friend's [32:44] house, a smart parent takes away all the [32:46] phones. I would hate that the [32:48] 10-year-old has a phone in the first [32:49] place, but if they do, take away all the [32:50] phones [32:51] and make the kids go play. [32:54] That when they have a fight, [32:55] the parents make them say sorry, you [32:58] know, go over to your friend's house and [33:00] knock on the door and you're going to [33:01] say sorry for the thing that you did. [33:03] Um we're going to teach kids how to [33:05] resolve conflict. We're going to teach [33:06] kids how to take compliments. We're [33:07] going to teach kids how to take [33:08] accountability. [33:10] And these are all the skills of, you [33:11] know, [33:12] well, what did you do wrong versus what [33:14] did you what did what you know, like [33:16] it's not like [33:18] you know, [33:20] it's not always the school or the [33:21] teacher. Maybe your kid did is [33:23] disruptive, you know? And so [33:25] accountability is a real thing. [33:27] And so I think if we teach those things [33:28] to 10-year-olds and to adults, [33:30] um I think it makes for a better [33:31] society. And the other thing is go learn [33:32] a real skill. [33:33] And I don't mean like that, you know, [33:35] prompting isn't a real skill. That's not [33:37] what I mean. It's what I said before, [33:39] which is it's the excruciating like what [33:42] makes great relationships great is not [33:43] that you get along all the time. [33:45] The best marriages, the best [33:47] relationships, [33:48] they're not absent of conflict. It's [33:50] they know how to resolve conflict [33:52] peacefully. [33:53] By the way, I believe in world peace. I [33:55] don't believe in a world without [33:55] conflict. I believe a world in which we [33:58] can resolve our conflict peacefully [33:59] without the need to go to war to resolve [34:00] conflict. This is why I like democracies [34:02] cuz democracies can solve conflict [34:05] without bullets. So I the human skills [34:07] work, but I say a real skill mean like [34:08] go do something difficult. [34:10] Build something, [34:12] design something, [34:13] imagine something, write something, [34:15] and and and and by the way, I'm totally [34:18] fine even if you plug it into chat GPT [34:20] and say tell me what's wrong with this. [34:21] Your grammar's all screwed up. You know? [34:24] And like I said, I [34:28] I am smarter because I did it. [34:31] I'm [34:32] the reason I'm more confident than when [34:35] I was younger. [34:36] And I think that's one of the things you [34:37] do. People talk about you get wise with [34:38] age. You know, and like and you know, [34:41] you have more confident as you get [34:42] older. And yes, that's all true and [34:44] there's multiple reasons for it. But I [34:46] think one of the reasons is is the [34:48] things that are happening to me now, [34:51] I've gone through those things before. [34:53] They were scary and kept me up at night [34:55] the first time. [34:57] And now, [34:58] I know how to do it. I'm not afraid of [35:01] it anymore. And so, I think what happens [35:03] as you gain experience, [35:05] is you lose fear. [35:08] And if ChatGPT or whatever AI product we [35:10] use does everything for us, [35:12] I think you just end up scared. [35:15] One of the things that I'm contending [35:16] with at the moment, [35:17] with this new technology that's arrived, [35:20] being an entrepreneur, [35:21] seeing this huge opportunity, thinking [35:23] about the dot-com boom, and all the [35:26] great opportunity that that created, [35:29] people talking about the age of [35:30] abundance and all these things, is I'm [35:32] contending with the question on a [35:34] personal level, which is when is enough [35:37] enough? And maybe this question is more [35:38] pertinent now than ever in a world where [35:40] creating stuff, building stuff, starting [35:42] a company, launching a book, the cost of [35:45] creating these things, whether they're [35:46] good or not so good, has gone to [35:48] basically zero. [35:49] Yeah. [35:50] So, we can all theoretically from our [35:52] computers now become movie directors and [35:55] authors and software developers. And so, [35:58] with this possibility, this opportunity, [36:03] and the the thing we need to deploy is [36:05] intention. Like, what do I do? What is [36:07] the thing that's going to lead me to [36:08] happiness? Do I pursue all of these [36:10] things and start building and creating [36:11] and running off down that path to climb [36:13] some ladder? [36:14] Or do I take a second? When is enough [36:16] enough? And as an entrepreneur who is in [36:18] this moment has a lot of resources, [36:20] could roll the dice, could start all [36:21] these new companies, could do all of [36:22] these things, [36:24] when is enough enough? [36:27] No. [36:30] right? Like [36:34] we [36:36] there's something to be said for [36:37] gratitude. [36:39] And if you want to make it money, we [36:40] know the data on this. [36:41] Right? I think once you reach I can't [36:43] remember the number is $70,000 a year of [36:45] income. [36:47] Like you like when you talk about money [36:49] can't buy happiness, like it absolutely [36:51] buys happiness up to a certain level, [36:52] which is survival and then a little bit [36:54] more, you know? [36:56] But once you reach a certain level like [36:57] the there's no discernible increase in [37:00] happiness that comes with money. Now, [37:02] what money buys is options, [37:04] you know? What money buys is time, [37:08] you know? [37:09] Um those things are true, and you you [37:11] said it. Like some of the people that [37:13] you and I know who have [37:15] made generational wealth, [37:19] they're not discernibly happy. The ones [37:21] that are happier were happy before they [37:23] made the money. [37:24] And the ones who thought the money would [37:26] buy them happiness, or worse, the money [37:29] took away their purpose because when [37:30] they made the money they were driven by [37:31] something that they accidentally made [37:33] the money. They built businesses that [37:35] were [37:36] that those were their passions and their [37:37] cause, and then the money came and they [37:40] weren't building the thing anymore, and [37:43] you know? [37:44] This this is the this is the difference [37:45] is like why this [37:47] it's really interesting. It also gets [37:48] the question is why is it that small [37:50] companies are more innovative than big [37:51] companies? Right? Like you think about [37:53] it. When you say what's the secret for [37:55] for innovation? Well, you want to have [37:56] resources, you want to have great [37:57] people, and you want to have great [37:58] market opportunities, and then you can [37:59] have great ideas. Okay. So, big [38:01] companies have tons of money, they hire [38:03] have all the best people, they have [38:04] mature [38:05] marketplaces that people generally know [38:07] who they are, and they're the least [38:09] innovative organizations on the planet. [38:10] Right? Then you have little companies [38:12] that have no money, they're [38:14] bootstrapping it, they don't have enough [38:15] people, nobody knows who they are in the [38:16] [ __ ] market conditions, and yet they're [38:18] more innovative. And then big companies [38:19] innovate by buying the little companies. [38:21] You know, that's basically what happens. [38:23] My exit, your exit, big company can't [38:25] innovate, they just bought you, right? [38:28] Why is that? [38:30] Why is that the rule? And so, it goes [38:32] directly to this, I think. I think the [38:33] reason is is because when you're small, [38:36] your ambitions are bigger than the [38:38] resources you have to achieve those [38:40] ambitions. Every small business has [38:43] outsized ambitions. [38:45] Like beyond [38:46] objectively stupid. Like you look at [38:49] what they have and what they've got and [38:50] you they tell you where they're going to [38:51] be and you're just like, [38:53] "No." And yet some of them do. [38:56] And I think the problem with big [38:57] companies is their ambitions are well [38:58] within [39:00] their their capabilities, their [39:01] resources. In other words, their vision [39:03] isn't big enough. [39:04] And I think your vision has to be bigger [39:06] than the amount of money, resources, and [39:08] intelligence that you have to achieve [39:09] that. [39:10] And what that produces is creativity. [39:14] And so, it goes right back to this, [39:15] which is if if if we can do so much [39:19] with AI, [39:21] then we need bigger visions. And so, [39:24] when you ask me, "How do you find [39:25] happiness?" [39:27] I think that we need to set our sights [39:29] on things that are bigger than finite [39:31] success. [39:33] Um and I think we do need a gratitude [39:35] practice, regardless of how little or [39:37] how much you have. [39:38] To be grateful for what you do have [39:40] is a profound impact. I went through [39:42] this with the LA fires, [39:43] right? The [39:45] I was very lucky that my house survived [39:47] and I didn't have to get evacuated, but [39:49] the evacuations were getting closer and [39:50] closer. [39:52] And [39:53] two things happened that were profound [39:55] that live that I will that live with me [39:57] now. One which is resolvable and one [39:59] which is unresolvable. We were all [40:01] obsessed with this app called Watch [40:02] Duty, [40:03] which is how we tracked the fires. It [40:04] basically took all the publicly [40:06] available information and put it in one [40:07] place in a really amazing way, right? [40:09] Started by this amazing, amazing, [40:10] amazing entrepreneur named John Mills. [40:12] And we were all obsessed with Watch [40:14] Duty. We all were what on this app the [40:16] whole time. And one of the things we [40:17] were watching was the wind. [40:19] Cuz if the wind shifted, it could have [40:21] profoundly impact your life. [40:23] And I remember having this experience [40:25] like we were all watching the wind. [40:27] And the wind went away from me. And I [40:29] thought [40:31] Oh, thank god. [40:32] And in that moment I knew that somebody [40:35] was looking at the app going, "Oh god, [40:36] no." [40:38] And it's not like service where I'll eat [40:40] a little less so that somebody can eat [40:41] more. I'll give up some of my income so [40:42] that somebody has It's not one of those [40:43] I don't want my house to burn down so [40:45] somebody else's house doesn't burn down. [40:46] And I asked I had to live with this [40:48] paradox of how unfair the world is. That [40:51] simultaneously my relief and good news [40:53] was some was somebody else's stress and [40:55] bad news. And there was nothing I could [40:56] do to change that. So that paradox [40:59] I [41:00] it [41:00] is horrible and I It was It was right in [41:02] front of me. So that's one. But it's the [41:04] second part [41:05] which is [41:06] the evacuation zones were coming a [41:07] little closer and they were one zone [41:10] away from where where I live. [41:13] And we didn't know if we were going to [41:15] be woken in the middle of the night with [41:17] a with an alarm to evacuate. We didn't [41:19] know. [41:19] And so we had I had to go through the [41:21] process of packing up my car and making [41:24] my go bag. And I put as much stuff in my [41:26] car as I could. And I had to, you know, [41:27] we all play that game like, "If there's [41:29] a fire and you have to run out and grab [41:30] two things, what would you grab?" I had [41:31] to do that. [41:33] Right? A lot of people in LA had to do [41:34] that. Right? You actually had to make [41:36] the decisions. What am I going to take [41:37] and what am I going to leave behind? And [41:39] I found myself bringing things that I [41:41] never thought were important to me. And [41:43] I found myself leaving things behind [41:45] that [41:46] I thought I would take. [41:48] But the one thing that was amazing [41:51] was stuff that I couldn't fit. [41:52] But I still had love for it like my [41:54] favorite painting in the world. It's [41:55] just I couldn't fit it in my car. [41:58] I stood there in front of it. And I [42:00] said, "Thank you." And I said, [42:01] "Goodbye." [42:03] And it was like saying goodbye to a [42:04] loved one. You know, I hear this, you [42:05] know, somebody loses a parent. They go, [42:06] "Look, it was awful and, you know, he [42:08] suffered as on his deathbed, but I'm [42:10] glad I was with him to say goodbye. [42:13] And it was the most amazing thing to [42:16] have gratitude for something that I [42:17] don't want to lose, but accepted that I [42:21] I might. [42:23] And [42:24] it's made me a lot more disconnected [42:27] from my material things. [42:29] Especially the things I said goodbye to [42:31] cuz I've already said goodbye to them. I [42:32] had had I just sold some of my art for [42:34] for charity. [42:36] And people said, "How did you love your [42:37] art?" I'm like, "I know. Like my art's [42:39] like my babies." Like the how did you [42:41] choose? And I said, "I've already said [42:42] goodbye to everything here. I did it [42:43] months ago." [42:45] You know? And I think this idea of [42:47] gratitude, gratitude for what we have, [42:50] but also [42:52] um like you're going to lose your [42:53] parents. [42:55] All of us will lose our parents. [42:56] Hopefully hopefully hopefully [42:59] uh they don't ever have to say goodbye [43:00] to us, but we if things go well, we're [43:02] going to have to say goodbye to our [43:03] parents. [43:04] And [43:06] we can't be angry about it. We want to [43:08] say thank you for the times we had. [43:11] And I think to have that a level of [43:13] appreciation for everything in our [43:15] lives, how temporary all of this is, [43:18] I think that's it makes you happier. I [43:20] know it sounds [43:22] it's [43:24] it makes you happier to just look at [43:25] someone and be grateful. [43:27] You know, failed relationships, [43:29] you could be angry at the other person [43:31] or you can be grateful for the lessons [43:32] they taught you and or for the good [43:34] times you had. [43:36] And I think to change our minds to [43:37] gratitude, [43:39] and you can you know, it's it sounds [43:40] it's a little bit you know, hippy dippy [43:42] to have a gratitude practice and [43:44] that's fine. You know, if that's your [43:45] thing, lie in bed every night or keep a [43:47] journal and just say the things you're [43:48] grateful for. [43:49] But [43:52] I don't know if it works without an [43:54] evacuation zone approaching. [43:57] I don't know, but to go around your home [43:59] and just say thank you to the things [44:01] that you like [44:03] is a weird thing. How many of us How [44:05] many of us [44:06] When was the last time you called a [44:07] friend out of the blue [44:09] and just said thanks for being my [44:10] friend? [44:12] Like hey [44:13] just wanted to call and just tell you I [44:15] love you. Just tell you thank you. And [44:18] you know [44:20] that's all. No just a quick just 2 [44:22] minutes just just want to say thank you [44:23] for being my friend. I think if I said [44:25] that to one of my best friends they'd [44:27] think I was losing my mind or something [44:28] or that something was wrong. They'd be [44:29] so concerned cuz it's such an unusual [44:31] thing for me to Okay. So you can do it [44:33] this way. So I had a guest on the [44:35] podcast and he came up with this thing [44:37] that is so outside of my personality but [44:39] I'm going to try it. [44:41] Yeah that would make sense. [44:41] And you can do that. [44:43] You know? [44:44] I'm I'm new to this. You know I I know [44:47] for years people have been like you [44:48] should have a gratitude practice and [44:49] keep a gratitude journal. And I tried [44:50] it. I was like [44:52] okay [44:53] I'm grateful for my sister, grateful for [44:55] what I've [44:56] for my family, grateful for my friends, [44:58] grateful for the life that I live. [45:01] All right good night. All right next [45:02] day. [45:03] I'm grateful for my sister, grateful for [45:05] my family, grateful for my friends. You [45:07] know and I found it so repetitive [45:10] that I was like is this worth it? [45:12] Like [45:13] sure like every now and then something [45:14] was different and new. And I've come to [45:16] come to the conclusion like [45:18] if it's the same three things every [45:20] single day [45:22] good. [45:22] I was thinking about this a lot the [45:24] other day when someone asked me [45:28] think about all the people in your life [45:30] and imagine if they were sick and [45:31] imagine if you had a billion dollars in [45:32] your bank and the billion dollars could [45:33] cure [45:34] their sickness. [45:37] Like who would you cure it for for? [45:39] Would you would you spend a billion [45:41] dollars to cure your your girlfriend's [45:42] sickness, your your mother's sickness, [45:44] your father's sickness, your [45:46] whatever. Even if it was the the the [45:47] risk to them was was low and you would. [45:50] I'd give every pet penny I had to cure [45:52] an illness that my girlfriend had even [45:53] if the risk was low. [45:55] And as I was thinking through that I was [45:56] like but then if you look at my calendar [45:58] and how I'm allocating my time against [46:00] these individuals and against my [46:01] priorities there's a real imbalance [46:03] here. And over the last couple of weeks [46:04] in particular, I've been on a bit of a [46:05] journey of realizing just how important [46:08] four or five people in my life are. [46:10] I I [46:11] and how much I neglect them. [46:12] Yeah, I mean like of course. I mean [46:14] we're [46:15] only when it's [46:17] and it's you're right. Like it's just if [46:18] you say give a billion dollars and you [46:20] can cure this disease that affects, you [46:21] know, 2 million people, 10 million [46:23] people, you'd be like, [46:24] "Eh, [46:25] I'll give some money, right?" But if it [46:28] was one family member, you would exhaust [46:30] every resource, you would quit your job, [46:32] you would do everything you can [46:33] for a 1% chance. [46:35] for a 1% chance. You know, and people [46:37] do. They quit their jobs when and like [46:40] all so many charities have been started [46:42] because my father died, my mother died, [46:44] my sister died, my brother died, and [46:45] I've devoted my life to duh, right? Like [46:48] like literally that's the reason. [46:49] And it's because it's personal. Of [46:51] course, that makes sense. It's why why [46:53] are some entrepreneurs good and some [46:54] entrepreneurs bad? Well, how personal is [46:56] the thing that you're working on to you? [46:58] Because then I only like to like the [47:00] entrepreneurs that I love, [47:02] I want to know that they are solving a [47:03] problem that they struggled with or that [47:05] somebody they love struggled with or [47:07] something. If they they read an article [47:09] in a magazine, "Oh, this is a great [47:10] market opportunity." There is no passion [47:12] there. That is driven by money [47:14] and power only. I want to know somebody [47:16] that is it's so deeply personal to them [47:18] that they will stop at nothing. [47:21] They will run through a brick wall and [47:22] find every creative solution. And it [47:24] goes right back to the small company [47:26] versus big company. It's it's passion [47:29] and a vision that is bigger than the [47:30] resources that I have. [47:32] Which you know, [47:33] I had a conversation with somebody [47:34] recently actually [47:36] where [47:38] they wanted to [47:39] uh we were we uh [47:41] it was a business problem [47:43] and they wanted to change the goals. [47:46] And I said, "We can't just change the [47:47] goals because they're difficult. [47:49] You know, so we might miss the goal. [47:51] It's true. Yes, we have a very [47:52] aggressive goal and the likelihood of us [47:54] hitting it is incredibly low, but [47:56] why would we lower it? [47:59] And they said to me, [48:00] you know, I don't like to fail, they [48:01] said. I don't like to fail, and I know [48:03] you don't either. [48:04] And I said, ah, that's where you're [48:05] wrong. [48:06] That's where you're wrong. I have spent [48:08] most of my life a failure. [48:10] And I'm very comfortable being a [48:11] failure, and I think of myself not as a [48:13] success. [48:15] I think of myself as a failure. And [48:17] that's because my ambitions are bigger [48:19] than my skills or my ability to achieve [48:21] those ambitions. And so, almost [48:22] everything I've done, with a couple of [48:23] exceptions, have fallen short of what I [48:25] had hoped for. [48:26] I'm very comfortable with that. [48:28] Because failing at 80% is really much [48:31] better than succeeding at 30%. [48:34] And I think this idea of fear of failure [48:37] and embracing failure, I don't want to [48:38] fail. [48:39] But I just [48:41] I I have [48:43] I think it's important to have dreams [48:45] that are beyond your skills or your [48:47] resources. [48:48] Because that's where creativity comes [48:50] from. [48:51] That's where [48:52] resourcefulness comes from. [48:55] You know, when you go, how am I going to [48:56] figure this one out? And you told me the [48:58] stories of your own team. [49:00] You know, it's the resourceful ones. And [49:02] now we go back to AI. [49:04] AI is not going to figure that out. [49:07] Right? [49:08] There's There's data on this. I have [49:09] actually never thought about this. This [49:10] is good. There was a book called Oh, it [49:13] was The Wisdom of Crowds. I think it was [49:15] that one. [49:16] I think it was The Wisdom of Crowds by [49:17] James Surowiecki. [49:18] Where people with experience knew what [49:20] to do versus people who were just [49:22] trained. So, I'll give you the example. [49:24] This is I can't I can't Again, I might [49:25] have the book wrong, but this was I [49:26] remember the case. So, there was a a [49:28] bunch of firemen fighting a fire in like [49:31] the in wildfires, right? And the wind [49:34] picked up, and the fire was coming [49:36] really fast towards these firemen. True [49:38] story. [49:39] And they all started running for their [49:41] lives as this fire was approaching them [49:42] unbelievably quickly. But the problem [49:44] was if they looked ahead, [49:47] there was a small hill, which means [49:49] you're going to slow down cuz you can't [49:50] run fast up a hill. And this fire is [49:52] coming fast, right? The senior guy on [49:56] the on the team started screaming, "Get [49:59] down. Get down. Get down." And they all [50:01] ignored him. They were all running for [50:02] their lives. And he just stopped running [50:04] and got down and put his hands over his [50:07] head and just lay in a ball [50:08] and the fire was going so fast that it [50:10] blew right over him. [50:13] And it caught up with the other guys and [50:14] burned them all to death. [50:17] Now, they didn't teach them that in fire [50:18] school. [50:20] It It was accumulated knowledge of [50:22] wisdom of that came from experience that [50:24] he knew the right thing to do in the [50:25] moment. He was able to read the tea [50:27] leaves in a way and his his gut, [50:31] whatever that means, his gut said the [50:33] right thing to do is to drop down. [50:35] You'll be okay. [50:36] And this is why I'm going to sound like [50:38] a broken record. [50:40] The importance of doing the work [50:42] yourself, [50:43] of writing the book, painting the [50:44] painting, choreographing the dance, you [50:46] know, [50:47] composing the symphony, building the [50:48] business, having the difficult [50:50] conversation, stumbling and bumbling, [50:53] right? The reason for it Like let's say [50:55] you have a fight with your your your [50:56] girlfriend. [50:57] You don't want to be in a fight. You [50:59] don't like being in a fight. You want to [51:00] do the right thing. So, you go to chat [51:02] GPT and you'll be like, "My girlfriend [51:03] and I had a fight. This is what the [51:04] fight was about. Okay? I think I did [51:07] some stuff wrong. I think she did some [51:09] stuff wrong. This is exactly what [51:10] happened. Tell me what to do." [51:12] And you go, "Babe, [51:14] I just want you to know I want to take [51:15] full accountability. I'm really I'm [51:17] really sad that this happened and I want [51:19] you to know that I care about this [51:20] relationship." And she says to you, [51:22] "Did you get this answer from chat GPT?" [51:24] And you go, "I did." [51:27] How's that going to go? [51:29] Right? Now, you did everything right. [51:31] You did everything right. [51:34] You did everything right. [51:36] But for the fact, and it goes right back [51:38] to what you said, [51:39] which is it removed the humanity, it [51:41] removed the personality. It's [51:42] artificial. It's fake. It's everything [51:44] you said about the job interview. It's [51:45] everything you said about all those [51:46] other things, about all the resumes, all [51:48] of the pitch decks. [51:50] It's not you telling me sorry, it's [51:52] ChatGPT telling me sorry. And even [51:54] though you went with good intention to [51:55] get it right, I would rather you get it [51:57] wrong and bumble and fumble it with me [51:59] and be like, "Babe, I don't know how to [52:00] do this. I'm an asshole." [52:02] You know, and then she fights with you [52:04] because you get it wrong and you [52:05] rumble through it together. [52:08] And what happens when you come You've [52:09] had this happen. I know because I have [52:11] and I know anybody everybody has. [52:13] When you come out of the fight, you're [52:15] closer. [52:16] Mhm. [52:16] Not cuz you got it right. [52:18] Because you got it wrong. And if you [52:19] learn the skill [52:22] and you get better and better and better [52:23] and better and you do learn the skill of [52:25] saying the right thing and you do learn [52:26] the skill. She knew it wasn't because [52:27] you asked AI in the moment because you [52:29] just wanted to resolve the problem and [52:31] remove the tension. It's because you [52:33] learned the skill for the time that you [52:35] don't know when it's going to happen [52:36] because you're equipped for this [52:37] relationship. [52:38] Mhm. [52:39] And it's that investment in the [52:40] relationship rather than trying to [52:41] transactionally solve the problem before [52:43] me. And that's the difference. [52:45] Mhm. [52:45] It's infinite versus finite. It's [52:46] transaction versus It's destination [52:48] versus journey. I'm in the journey of [52:51] this relationship versus I have a [52:52] destination. I got to solve this problem [52:54] now otherwise this is going to destroy [52:55] my relationship. And all of this is [52:58] coming full circle. And it comes right [53:00] back to everything we started this. I [53:01] think it's hilarious that you and that [53:03] you're having a conversation with me [53:04] about AI cuz I'm not an AI expert and [53:06] I'm not in the AI business. [53:09] But I I am in the humanity business. And [53:12] I think everything we're talking about [53:13] from every angle we're battle testing [53:15] this idea. And what we can't get away [53:17] from is human beings really want human [53:21] beings. [53:23] And human beings really want human [53:26] experiences. [53:27] Mhm. [53:27] And human beings really want things made [53:29] by human beings. And we are not only [53:31] okay with [53:33] we want imperfection. [53:35] Because imperfection is the sign [53:38] of human. [53:39] I was just thinking about how [53:42] how when I'm in an argument with my [53:44] partner [53:45] if she was perfect, if she was [53:47] completely composed, if she was looking [53:49] at me [53:50] without emotion, without expression, and [53:53] if she was spewing chat GPT-like [53:55] responses back at me [53:58] it would it would be a little bit [53:59] infuriating, but also it would be [54:01] completely dehumanizing as you say. And [54:03] it's funny how actually even in conflict [54:06] I want emotion. I want imperfection. I [54:08] want res- human resonance. [54:10] It's interesting cuz I've been like [54:12] thinking about my [54:12] Struggle is a good thing. [54:14] Yeah. [54:14] And I think in our modern day and age we [54:16] have under [54:18] appreciated and underrepresented the [54:20] value of struggle. [54:22] And if you ask anybody in their life [54:25] you know, tell me about a time in your [54:27] career [54:28] where [54:30] like you felt like boy, this is the most [54:32] amazing thing I've ever done. I'm so [54:33] glad I'm a part of this. It's not the [54:35] big win. It's not the big success. It's [54:37] not we finished everything on time and [54:38] under budget. [54:40] It's oh my god, this one thing went [54:41] horribly wrong. [54:43] Oh my god, it went so badly and yet the [54:45] way we came together like the most [54:48] important thing in my career was when I [54:50] lost my passion and went into deep [54:51] depression. Never want to go through [54:52] that again. Really glad it happened. And [54:55] all of our relationships, professional, [54:57] personal, romantic, whatever they are [54:59] right? All of our relationships [55:01] get better when we go through struggle [55:02] together. [55:03] And we know we know the way the human [55:05] animal works. We know that oxytocin is [55:06] released when you have shared struggle. [55:08] That's why when you put people in boot [55:10] camp and they go through [ __ ] together [55:11] or there's a a natural a national a [55:13] natural disaster. Like all of all of a [55:15] sudden I don't care who you voted for. [55:18] I saw your house blow down in the [55:19] tornado. I got you. Don't worry. We're [55:20] neighbors. Right? Like we can put aside [55:23] all the rational nonsense. [55:26] The the the intellectual nonsense. And [55:27] at the end of the day human beings [55:30] are are are good at helping human [55:32] beings. [55:33] Struggle also in many contexts is the [55:36] value. So when I think about a Simon [55:38] Sinek book, the reason why I value it is [55:41] because I know that Simon Sinek spent [55:43] years writing that thing and pulling it [55:44] together. The reason why [55:46] certain handmade things that we talked [55:47] about earlier are valuable is because of [55:49] the pain and the toil that went into [55:50] them. And when you think about the art [55:51] world and other creations through [55:53] history, the value comes from the fact [55:55] that human beings came together for a [55:57] prolonged period of time [55:58] and did something. And actually, the [56:00] investment is the value. Like the the [56:02] amount that went in the top creates [56:04] value. [56:05] We're not buying the product, we're [56:06] buying the story. [56:07] Yeah. Like the Mona Lisa is [56:09] You're not buying the Mona Lisa. You're [56:10] not buying a piece of art, you're buying [56:11] the story that goes with the art. The [56:13] story that it took to create the art. [56:15] What the artist was going through, what [56:16] they were thinking. You're not buying my [56:18] book, you're buying the story of the [56:20] making of my book. [56:21] And the Mona Lisa was stolen from what I [56:22] understand. [56:23] I mean, we don't even know if the the [56:25] one in the Louvre is the real one. [56:26] Cuz I had mentioned the reason why the [56:28] Mona Lisa is so valuable is because at [56:29] one point it was stolen and then they [56:31] like managed to find it again. And [56:33] actually, it's just a painting, but the [56:35] story of the [56:36] The story is amazing. [56:37] 100 million, 200 million, whatever. [56:38] Whatever. I mean, and so this is what we [56:40] figure The reason famous artists are [56:41] famous is cuz you buy the story of that [56:43] artist, not not their talent. [56:46] There's a lot of [56:47] famous singers and actors and painters, [56:49] dancers who are a lot [56:51] less talented than the unknown ones, but [56:53] you buy into the story. [56:55] And this is why some celebrities, [57:00] as much as they talk about the paparazzi [57:02] and the tabloids, they want to be in the [57:04] paparazzi and the tabloids. They want [57:05] the paparazzi to follow them because it [57:06] keeps their story relevant. It keeps [57:08] them, you know, they're worth more [57:10] because they're in the zeitgeist. [57:11] Apple know this better than anybody cuz [57:13] you go to an Apple store and they've [57:15] laid out their products as if [57:18] it was an art gallery. [57:20] The [57:21] 3 ft either side of the iPhone create [57:24] the impression in my mind that that this [57:26] is a piece of art and there's only one [57:27] of them. And the fact that they've [57:28] wasted all this space, which I know real [57:31] estate costs money and that must have [57:32] been expensive, pulls into the device [57:35] itself. If I go into an Apple store and [57:37] there was a thousand iPhones, like the [57:38] old electronic stops all stacked on top [57:40] of each other, I would assume the iPhone [57:41] was worth less, but the story, just by [57:43] the frame in which I see it, means that [57:45] oh my god, this thing is [57:46] It's theater. It looks like one of one. [57:48] Yeah, it's theater. And and some would [57:50] call it manipulative, [57:52] but we want things to feel [57:55] valuable. Not just be valuable. [57:57] Right? I could tell you I've got a [57:59] I I can I found a guy who makes cashmere [58:02] jerseys and he uses the exact same [58:04] cashmere as, you know, Loro Piana, [58:06] whatever, some fancy fancy ass brand. [58:09] You know? But the problem is it says [58:11] like Dave's Cashmere Shop. [58:13] You know? I could tell you everything [58:15] about where he sources the cashmere, how [58:17] he makes it, that's the same everything, [58:19] and you'd be like, [58:21] "Yeah, [58:22] Dave's Cashmere Shop?" Because you're [58:24] not buying the cashmere, you're buying [58:26] the brand. You're buying the story, [58:28] you're buying the association. That's [58:29] what's That's why brands have value. [58:33] Because it's irrational. [58:35] Yeah. [58:35] And humans are irrational. And that's [58:38] why companies invest in building brands. [58:41] For the story. [58:42] And so, [58:45] yeah, I I I think I'm [58:47] you know, as much as chat [58:49] AI scares me, [58:50] I still believe the thing that the [58:52] technologist the technologists don't [58:54] appreciate and won't appreciate, and [58:56] there there will be a rebellion. [58:59] And handmade will become more valuable [59:02] and handmade will become more expensive. [59:04] And [59:05] people will want to say that. [59:08] You know, it's like, [59:09] "You had that person write your speech [59:11] for you? You Wait, who did the painting [59:13] for you? They They did it themselves?" [59:15] You know? And I think [59:18] that's good. [59:19] You know, it's a pendulum, right? We're [59:21] going to get enamored with the [59:22] technology until we're until it's [59:24] boring. [59:25] This also just expands generally. I know [59:27] this sounds quite big and we're talking [59:28] about these big things, but just [59:29] everything that you create, it's very, [59:31] very tempting at the moment to just [59:33] create something with AI and throw it up [59:35] on your website, on your social media [59:37] pages, or present it to the world, a [59:38] presentation deck at work. But actually, [59:40] I'm I'm already noticing [59:43] I'm attributing huge value and interest [59:45] in things that I can identify as [59:47] human-made. [59:49] I had a flashback a second ago. So we're [59:51] talking about this idea of scarcity [59:53] to one of my favorite brands in the [59:55] world. [59:56] It's a clothing brand, and I was [59:58] obsessed with this clothing brand. I'd [59:59] spend a huge amount of I don't spend [60:00] money on clothes. I would spend a huge [60:02] amount of money every time they came up [60:03] with a new item. One day, [60:05] the founder of the brand, and everybody [60:07] knows this brand, [60:09] he posted a photo from his factory. It [60:11] was like a series of video. [60:13] And what I saw in the video was the [60:15] shirt I was currently wearing as I [60:17] watched the video in a massive bucket [60:20] with 4,000 others of the exact same [60:23] shirt. And in that moment, [60:25] fell out of love. [60:26] I fell out of love. [60:26] Exactly. [60:27] Because in my head, I'd painted this [60:29] like artisan picture of the of them [60:31] sewing it. These two guys sewing it in [60:33] their bedroom and then like sending [60:34] Probably what it was Probably what it [60:35] was on the ad, too. it was on the ad, [60:36] too. [60:37] I think that's what it kind of like used [60:38] to be. So I still had that image in my [60:40] head. [60:41] Yeah. [60:42] The one thing that I've always [60:43] understood, this is true for businesses, [60:45] this is true for absolutely everything, [60:46] scale breaks things. [60:48] You know, scale breaks things. In the In [60:50] the military, there the special forces, [60:51] special operating forces, Navy SEALs, [60:54] SAS, you know, [60:56] all those folks, right? [60:58] And there's this there's a saying [60:59] in the special forces that's basically [61:02] um special [61:04] you can't scale special. [61:06] Right? So you can take whatever training [61:08] skills, whatever you have for the [61:09] special forces, and you give it to [61:10] everybody, it's not going to work. [61:12] Special can only be small. [61:15] You know? And and so [61:18] scale breaks things. Scale always So I [61:20] mean like [61:21] Microsoft versus Apple, right? So, Apple [61:24] wanted the highest quality operating [61:26] system in the world, right? So, what did [61:27] they do? They They refused to clone, [61:30] right? They wouldn't They wouldn't They [61:31] wouldn't clone their their operating [61:32] system. [61:34] And [61:35] they [61:36] uh as a result of of refusing to [61:40] to do that, they they never at For [61:42] years, Apple had like, in the height of [61:44] the the PC wars, maybe 4% of the world's [61:47] operating systems. [61:48] Microsoft said, "We're happy to clone [61:51] our operating system." So, it was a [61:52] little bit different on Dells, a little [61:53] bit different on IBM. Wherever you use [61:55] it, it was slightly different. And they [61:56] had 90-something percent of the world's [61:57] operating systems. [61:59] It's because you have to trade quality [62:00] for scale. [62:01] Mhm. [62:02] Every time. There's a reason why buying [62:04] fancy goods for a lot of money [62:06] like, because as you said, [62:08] the way you make things has to change, [62:10] and you just have to start making them [62:11] in factories, and you have to [62:12] scale scale scale breaks companies. [62:15] Think about how beautiful companies are. [62:16] The number of companies that talk about, [62:17] "Oh, our company's like a family." Get [62:19] to about 150 people, 200 people, gets to [62:21] Dunbar's number, [62:23] not so much of a family anymore. [62:25] I think B2B marketers keep making this [62:27] mistake. They're chasing volume instead [62:30] of quality. And when you try to be seen [62:32] by more people instead of the right [62:33] people, all you're doing is making [62:35] noise, but that noise rarely shifts the [62:37] needle, and it's often quite expensive. [62:39] And I know, as there was a time in my [62:41] career where I kept making this mistake, [62:43] that many of you will be making it, too. [62:45] Eventually, I started posting ads on our [62:47] show sponsor's platform, LinkedIn, and [62:49] that's when things started to change. I [62:51] put that change down to a few critical [62:53] things. One of them being that LinkedIn [62:55] was then and still is today the platform [62:57] where decision-makers go to, not only to [62:59] think and learn, but also to buy. And [63:01] when you market your business there, [63:03] you're putting it right in front of [63:04] people who actually have the power to [63:06] say yes. And you can target them by job [63:08] title, industry, and company size. It's [63:11] simply a sharper way to spend your [63:12] marketing budget. And if you haven't [63:14] tried it, how about this? Give LinkedIn [63:16] Ads a try, and I'm going to give you a [63:18] $100 ad credit to get you started. If [63:21] you visit linkedin.com/diary, [63:23] you can claim that right now. That's [63:25] linkedin.com/diary. [63:29] Is it harder now to find love? Cuz [63:32] there's lots of stats that say we're [63:33] having less sex, we're lonelier than [63:35] ever before. Um interestingly, this is [63:38] maybe an adjacent point, but I was [63:40] looking at Bumble share price. [63:42] I love [63:44] the founder of Bumble, the CEO is [63:46] really, really good friend of mine. I [63:47] think she's amazing. [63:48] Whitney? [63:48] Whitney, yes. I think she is amazing. [63:50] Has she come on? [63:51] She has. And I know her, and she's a [63:53] wonderful human being. But when I was [63:55] looking at the Bumble share price, it [63:58] painted a really interesting picture [64:00] because then you you overlay that with [64:01] some of these other dating apps, and you [64:03] see I mean this is the [64:05] Well, she's had to come back. [64:06] She's just come back in yet to turn the [64:08] company around. And actually, [64:09] interestingly, I saw her do an [64:10] interview, which is one of these ones [64:11] here, and in the interview she said [64:13] she's going to revamp Bumble [64:14] Yeah. [64:15] to make it not about finding love with [64:16] others, but falling in love with [64:18] yourself. [64:19] Yeah. [64:20] And there's also going to be this dating [64:22] marketplace, but her first objective is [64:23] going to be get people to love [64:24] themselves [64:25] Yeah. [64:26] through coaching and all these kinds of [64:27] things on the app, and then find a [64:29] partner. [64:29] Sure. Yes. I mean, I [64:32] I agree with that. I mean [64:34] it's like it's [64:35] I mean, we're all broken records, right? [64:37] I don't mean that as a like a like we're [64:40] all broken souls. Like [64:42] you know, you your customers will never [64:44] love you until your employees love you [64:45] first. [64:46] You'll never find somebody to love you [64:48] unless you love yourself first. And look [64:50] at failed relationships, right? Where [64:52] there's so much tension, it's somebody's [64:53] lack of self-love that contributes to [64:55] the failing of that relationship. I [64:57] mean, I have a dear friend who's going [64:58] through it right now. She just can't [65:00] find love, and she [65:01] it's it's just [65:03] but [65:04] it's cuz she doesn't love herself, and [65:07] and she knows it, you know, it's a hard [65:09] thing to to So, if Bumble can crack that [65:11] code, more power to him. [65:13] It's It's a But, this is the problem [65:15] with a lot of these things. [65:16] You know, they're common knowledge. We [65:18] just don't do them. [65:19] Everybody knows how to be healthy. [65:21] Everybody knows how to exercise. [65:23] Everybody knows what eating right means. [65:26] Don't do it. [65:28] Because wrong is easier. [65:30] And right takes effort. Everybody knows [65:32] what we're supposed to do in a [65:33] relationship. Everybody knows what we're [65:34] supposed to like [65:36] hold space. Everybody Everybody knows [65:37] philosophically what we're supposed to [65:38] do, but we don't do it. By the way, it's [65:40] the reason why most people I've written [65:41] all these lovely books, and it's the [65:42] reason why most companies don't use [65:44] them. It's because [65:46] my work is like exercise, which is I can [65:48] tell you every single If you want to get [65:50] into shape, "Hey Simon, how do I get [65:51] into shape?" Easy. Every single day work [65:53] out for 20 minutes. Every single day. [65:55] Okay? Can I take the occasional day off? [65:56] Yes, but not too many. Work out every [65:58] single day, and 100% of you will get [66:01] into shape. I know it. 100%. When? I [66:04] don't know, and neither does any doctor. [66:06] And that's my work. Yes, I can [66:08] profoundly help you find [66:10] purpose with Start With Why. I can help [66:12] you build trust on a team with Leaders [66:13] Eat Last. I can help you embrace the [66:15] infinite mindset and have this [66:17] incredible calm in life. And the reason [66:19] most companies won't do it this innova- [66:21] This is a book for innovation, right [66:22] here. You want to know innovate? [66:23] Infinite Game. The reason most companies [66:24] won't do it is because they need it to [66:26] happen by the end of the quarter or the [66:27] end of the financial year. [66:29] It may or may not. I have no clue, and I [66:31] cannot predict that it will or won't. [66:33] It'll work 100%. I just don't know when. [66:35] And the problem is, cuz right back to [66:37] the beginning of this conversation, [66:38] we're all so obsessed with the output. [66:40] We're all so obsessed with the result [66:43] that we've completely ignored the value [66:45] of the journey. [66:46] And people would rather hit the number [66:48] at the end of the year than build a good [66:50] strong company. Think about it. Right? [66:53] If I meet another entrepreneur, when I [66:55] say, "So, tell me about your company." [66:56] Like, "We're hypergrowth. We're a [66:57] hypergrowth company. We're a gazelle." [66:59] Right? Like, show me Then I always say [67:01] the same thing, cuz I'm an ass. [67:04] Can you please give me one article from [67:05] a reputable publication, just one, and I [67:07] don't care the publication that says [67:10] that building a hyper-growth company is [67:12] good for business. [67:13] Just [67:14] one. [67:16] And the answer is you can't, because [67:18] it's not. [67:20] And so, why are we so obsessed with [67:21] high-speed growth? It's because our [67:22] investors want us to be obsessed with [67:24] high-speed growth. [67:25] Right? Or our egos want us to be [67:26] obsessed with high-speed growth. Right? [67:28] And if high-speed growth happens by [67:30] accident, that happens for many of the [67:31] unicorns. Right? It was an accident. I [67:35] think building a good company is better [67:37] than building a fast company. I think [67:38] building a good relationship is better [67:40] than building a fast relationship. [67:42] And we're all so obsessed with speed [67:46] and immediate results. [67:48] Present company included. I've had to [67:50] learn this the hard way. [67:51] Then I think there's something joyful [67:54] and beautiful about [67:56] slowing down, [67:57] saying thank you, re-prioritizing [67:59] friends. [68:01] It's okay. I mean, by the way, cell [68:03] phones and so [68:05] But before cell phones, we went to work, [68:08] and then we went home. [68:09] And we didn't do work at home, because [68:11] we couldn't do work at home. [68:12] Because we didn't have computers at [68:13] home, and we didn't have cell phones or [68:14] people to call us. And so, you did work [68:16] at work, [68:18] and then you left. [68:21] And I remember when cell phones started, [68:23] I remember the advertising. AT&T had [68:25] this campaign [68:26] that they showed people working on the [68:28] beach, [68:29] you know, with their computers. I mean, [68:31] this is like the future, right? And they [68:35] said, "Now, [68:37] um well, I don't remember what was the [68:38] what was the tagline. It was really [68:39] funny. It was like, 'Now you can leave [68:42] work.'" [68:43] Right? [68:45] And that's not what happened. [68:46] Work came with us. We never left work. [68:49] Work came with us wherever This is the [68:50] problem with cell phones and computers [68:51] and the internet, which is we do not [68:54] leave work. [68:55] Work is with us in our pocket [68:58] every day, every vacation, every [69:00] evening, every weekend. [69:02] As you said that, I thought, "Do you [69:03] know what? That's so interesting because [69:05] that kind of means that friction [69:08] creates freedom in that regard, if you [69:10] know what I'm saying." So, the friction [69:11] of not being able to go home [69:13] and tap away on my computer all night [69:16] meant that I had a certain level of [69:17] freedom because I had to kind of wait [69:18] for things, right? So, in the same [69:20] context with AI coming along, now I can [69:21] build software throughout the weekend [69:23] whether the agency's working or not. [69:24] Now, I can build anything I want at any [69:26] time [69:26] Yeah. [69:27] using the phone in my pocket, the [69:29] friction has come down again. And [69:30] therefore, the pressure to do it now [69:32] because I can do it now [69:34] goes up. And this is kind of maybe what [69:36] I was alluding to earlier on in the, you [69:37] know, when I was thinking about how [69:38] you're going to get more stressed and [69:39] more overwhelmed and [69:40] That's good. [69:40] more isolated. [69:41] That's so good. That's so Right, it's [69:43] we're taking work with us. I mean, it's [69:45] like, you know, everybody has a story of [69:47] like where the battery ran out on their [69:48] phone and they ended up having the best [69:50] night. Yeah. Or the internet went out at [69:52] work and they actually got more done. [69:54] Like, you hear these stories all the [69:55] time. [69:56] You know? That that when when we're [70:00] forced not to take work with us, [70:03] forced. [70:04] It takes a bit of time sometimes to [70:06] relax, [70:07] but it's always better because you learn [70:10] to [70:10] stop worrying, stop checking, [70:13] you know? [70:14] You know, and you just I One of the [70:16] things I did, [70:17] I I I can't delete Instagram [70:20] completely as much as I'd love to, [70:22] but I hid it. [70:24] So, you know, you can do that on iPhone. [70:25] You can take it off the It's gone. It's [70:27] hidden. It says hide app. And then I And [70:30] when you go into the search, you know, [70:31] when you go to search, it suggests I [70:32] took it off the suggestions, which most [70:34] people don't even know you could do [70:35] that. So, I took it off the suggestions. [70:36] So, when I go to cuz I realized what I [70:38] was doing is I'm like, when I'm bored, I [70:39] just pick up my phone and I just like [70:41] and then I see Instagram like and I just [70:42] click it like a like a zombie and then [70:44] I'm done for an hour, you know? [70:47] So, I hid it. So, the only time I go to [70:48] Instagram is when I have to go to it and [70:50] I have to type in I N S T, you know? [70:53] And then it pops up and my usage of [70:55] Instagram has plummeted. [70:58] Plunged [70:59] because it has to be intentional. [71:01] And the problem with most social media [71:03] is it's unintentional. [71:05] One of the big things talking about [71:07] community Instagram AI that I think a [71:09] lot about is [71:12] is the [71:14] is the value of in real life community [71:16] going to rise? And I think we might be [71:19] on the precipice of the community [71:22] revolution. I say this because when I [71:24] think about what's going to remain in [71:25] the world where creating things goes to [71:27] zero. Like when you know, once upon a [71:29] time if you made a social network or if [71:31] you made built an app or if you built a [71:34] media a movie or a media company or a [71:36] podcast [71:37] that was half of the job and the other [71:39] half of the job is like getting it out [71:40] there in the world. [71:41] And so now the people that have the [71:43] other half of the job [71:45] which hasn't gone to zero, now have this [71:47] tremendous advantage cuz we can all [71:48] create but we can't all distribute. And [71:50] so having community and building and [71:52] fostering community I think now is one [71:54] of the things that remains. What are the [71:56] values of a community? Like how do I [71:57] build a community? [71:58] Well, I have a definition of community [71:59] and I think we said it before which is [72:01] the community is a group of people who [72:02] agree to grow together. [72:04] Interesting. [72:04] Community is a group of people who agree [72:06] to grow together and I believe friends [72:08] are at least two people who agree to [72:10] grow together. [72:11] In marketing this is the absolute [72:12] obsession at the moment community run [72:14] clubs and brands becoming [72:16] And offline is the new online, right? [72:19] Offline's the new black. [72:21] Like there's a there's a company called [72:22] Clicks and it was started by a [72:25] she's a talented entrepreneur and she [72:27] was in college and she suffered severe [72:28] depression and loneliness and literally [72:31] struggled didn't know how to make [72:32] friends. And [72:34] she [72:36] Oh, I'll just call her by her name. Her [72:37] name is Alix. [72:38] Um but her company Clicks she started it [72:42] to solve her own problem, right? My [72:44] favorite kind of company. [72:46] And basically to help her friends at [72:48] school, quote unquote friends, people at [72:50] school make friends. And she did it by [72:52] taking people offline and taking their [72:53] phones away. And she would come up with [72:55] reasons to come together, whether it was [72:56] running or this or that. Just like it [72:57] didn't matter what the reason was. Come [72:59] and just a reason to come that made you [73:01] that when you saw the ad hung up on a [73:02] piece of paper at college, you know, [73:04] that you'd be like, [73:06] I like [73:08] horror movies, whatever. [73:10] I like baking. I'll go to that. Right? [73:12] Just a trick. [73:14] And then basically just And so she's [73:16] built this business [73:18] predominantly for young people, but it's [73:19] available to everyone, but she's built [73:20] this business to just bring people [73:22] together to meet people [73:24] without phones offline. And she wants [73:26] She has a There's a great irony in it. [73:28] She has an app that she wants people not [73:29] to be on. [73:31] You know? [73:32] And what is it that holds a community [73:34] together? Is it so like sh- We want to [73:36] improve together, so we have to have [73:37] some kind of shared value that we we [73:39] want to improve on, [73:41] presumably. [73:43] It's like a community of runners. [73:44] They're trying to get fit together, or [73:45] they're trying to improve their [73:47] I don't think it matters. I mean, it's [73:48] like it's it's shared shared interests [73:51] is a is a is a way to start a a [73:53] relationship, right? Comic-Con, [73:56] you know, you know, nerdvana, you know, [73:58] Burning Man. All of these [74:00] larger-than-life events, big and small. [74:03] Going to the Going to the Going to the [74:04] football. [74:05] You know, it's like you're everybody's [74:07] friend when you wear the when you wear [74:08] the right when you wear the right [74:09] colors. [74:11] You know? You know, you see people on [74:12] the on on the tube who's going to to go [74:14] to the same game. They're wearing the [74:15] same jersey. [74:16] You're friends, yeah. [74:17] You're friends, right? So, I think [74:19] common interest is a is a is a trick. [74:21] It's a way of getting people to come [74:22] together, and it's a nice place to start [74:24] cuz at least conversation is easy. [74:26] Mhm. [74:26] Right? You know at least one thing about [74:27] this person that you have in common with [74:28] them. [74:29] Do you need a shared goal in a [74:30] community, do you think? Thinking cuz in [74:32] the football analogy, we have a shared [74:34] goal. [74:34] Oh, yeah, you want to win. I think [74:35] that's a very good question. You have a [74:36] shared goal. [74:37] Even in a relationship. [74:38] Yeah, I think so. That seems to make [74:40] sense. [74:41] The reason why I'm asking these [74:42] questions is I am building businesses [74:44] and brands, and I know that community is [74:46] one of the most important things that [74:48] everyone building a brand or business is [74:49] thinking about at the moment. So, [74:52] there's a big difference between having [74:53] an audience, [74:54] which is what you might have on like a [74:55] podcast or something, and having a [74:57] community. [74:59] And I'm as a brand leader and as an [75:01] entrepreneur, I'm trying to shift from [75:02] having an audience over to having a [75:04] community. And that's about like [75:06] relationships and [75:07] Shared values. [75:08] Shared values. [75:09] I mean, [75:13] I like to think the people who [75:15] really like my work, not the ones who [75:16] just like passively like it, but the [75:17] ones who really like my work. [75:20] Like if somebody says, "I love Start [75:22] With Why." [75:23] Or "I live my life by the Infinite [75:25] Game." [75:26] That [75:27] it says something about who they are and [75:28] how they see the world and that we share [75:30] the same values. [75:32] And that if [75:33] And [75:34] because I am, you know me, you know I'm [75:36] an idealist. [75:38] And [75:39] And my I [75:41] I'm consistent in the way I talk about [75:43] things from the day I started to to now. [75:45] Won't ever change. [75:46] And [75:48] And I think that's the value of values. [75:50] And the problem with the modern world we [75:52] live in and the pressures that people [75:54] face is money and fame and all the rest [75:56] of it and, you know, influencer status. [75:58] I think it sometimes forces us to [76:00] question our values or walk away from [76:02] them. I was invited to a a group of they [76:05] called it a mastermind group. It was a [76:06] bunch of folks like me, author speakers, [76:08] who wanted to This is what they told me, [76:09] come together to based on shared shared [76:11] goals, [76:12] shared values, how we can work together [76:15] and improve the world together. And I'm [76:16] like, "Oh, sign me up. I'm in, right?" [76:18] So, I went and we sat around and you [76:20] know who some of these people are, you [76:22] know? [76:23] And we sat around a room and they spent [76:26] all of their time talking about how they [76:27] can share their lists with each other [76:29] and how they can cross promote with each [76:30] other and what margins are you getting [76:32] on this? And I'm like, [76:34] "You guys are And I spoke up. I was [76:36] like, you guys are just talking about [76:37] making more money. [76:38] I What I thought we came here to like [76:41] do common good together. [76:43] They didn't invite me back. [76:45] But it was but the point is is like [76:48] the money and the fame is seductive, you [76:49] know? This is this is this is this is [76:51] Joseph Campbell's hero's journey, which [76:53] is you start off as the reluctant hero, [76:56] and you get called to your mission for [76:58] some reason, [76:59] and at some point in your journey, there [77:02] will be [77:04] something to seduce you away from your [77:05] mission, money or power. [77:07] You know, Luke Skywalker was nearly [77:09] seduced away [77:10] from the vision, you know? [77:12] From the journey. Like this is what this [77:14] is what the hero has to go through. [77:16] And [77:17] do you have the friends who will slap [77:19] you around and keep you in line and say, [77:21] "No, you signed up for this. You have to [77:24] stay true to what you're doing." Because [77:25] I think none of us have the courage or [77:26] the strength to stay true to our cause [77:29] by ourselves. Very few of us. We need to [77:31] have at least one person who believes in [77:32] us [77:33] to give us the strength to stick to it. [77:35] Because the temptation the temptation [77:37] you and I have both at various times [77:38] gone through it. Like when you start [77:39] making money and you start making money [77:41] for something you didn't expect. Like I [77:43] never expected to have a career from any [77:45] of this stuff, right? It happened by [77:46] accident. [77:48] And you get to the point where you start [77:50] thinking you're more important than you [77:51] are. [77:52] Do they know Do they Do they know who I [77:54] am? [77:56] No. No. [77:57] Get over yourself. [77:58] You know? [77:59] And you start becoming seduced. And I [78:02] think the seduction when we turn on [78:04] social media and we watch Kardashian [78:07] the Kardashian model [78:08] and like you have people who pursue [78:10] influence without knowledge or skill. [78:13] Like those two buckets. They have the [78:15] other three buckets, but they don't have [78:16] the first two buckets. [78:17] And it is temporary for some [78:20] or unfulfilling for others. [78:22] And you know, the funny thing about that [78:25] job, you know, I was I was I went to a [78:27] concert. [78:28] And [78:29] there was this [78:31] this woman who walked down the aisle and [78:32] some guy was taking pictures of her as [78:33] she was posing. And the person next to [78:35] me goes, "She's a famous influencer." [78:38] And I said, "You mean she's a freelance [78:40] employee of an algorithm?" [78:46] And [78:48] And there's somebody who chooses to be [78:49] an influencer, that's what you are. You [78:51] are a freelance employee of an [78:52] algorithm. And the minute they change [78:54] the algorithm, you might be out of [78:55] business. [79:00] Uh [79:01] You just lost like 170 followers. [79:04] I mean [79:05] Maybe. [79:06] You just lost like 170 blue ticks. [79:08] But [79:09] Like I don't have a problem with the [79:11] concept of being an influencer if you [79:12] bring something of value. [79:14] The only time I have a problem with it [79:16] is is if you make it about you. [79:19] And I have to get more of everything. In [79:21] the early days of influencing [79:23] there was a young couple that were [79:25] trying to get followers, and they would [79:27] do crazier and crazier things. [79:29] And so [79:30] Shh. What they did is he took a dick a [79:32] big book, a dictionary I think it was, [79:34] and he put it over his chest, and she [79:35] took a gun and shot it at the book [79:38] thinking that the book would stop the [79:40] bullet. And she killed him. She killed [79:42] him on camera. [79:44] Right? Now [79:46] They admitted She admitted afterwards [79:47] she he's dead, but she admitted [79:48] afterwards they were doing it to do [79:50] bigger and crazier stunts to get more [79:51] and more followers because the financial [79:52] pressures of driving at those YouTube [79:54] views [79:55] was overwhelming. [79:57] And so it's an extreme case, obviously, [80:00] of the the the the the [80:02] how we will lose our minds trying to [80:04] gain followers. [80:06] And I don't mind if people gain [80:07] followers by giving. [80:10] But to gain followers by taking, look at [80:12] me, look at me, look at me. [80:13] Versus I have something that I think [80:15] this will help you. [80:17] And [80:18] like there's not there's no I don't have [80:19] a problem with [80:21] what it's it's the it's the input, [80:23] right? It's the intention. [80:25] Um [80:27] Anyway. Anyway, it's not like an old man [80:30] complaining about No, but [80:32] You kids these days and your [80:33] influencers. [80:34] So, I'm going to print it off some [80:35] graphs which I think are absolutely [80:36] fascinating and dovetail into everything [80:38] you said today, but also into your work [80:40] generally. So, I'm just going to give [80:41] you all of these to give you a second to [80:43] look through them. And I want to get [80:44] your read and interpretation on them. [80:46] Okay. [80:49] Adults lack of meaning and purpose [80:50] overall only let's just say [80:53] Okay. [80:54] I mean, that makes sense. [80:56] To me, that didn't make sense. I [80:57] couldn't understand how if someone is [81:01] low in purpose, then they are lonelier. [81:05] I mean, it just makes sense that when [81:06] you have [81:08] lack of purpose [81:09] the likelihood that loneliness comes [81:11] nearby. [81:12] Like I think family gives meaning, [81:14] friends give meaning. Like you feel like [81:15] you're there for someone else. [81:17] Um but if you don't know why you're [81:18] showing up every day, I think it it it [81:20] it feels like a lonely existence. Like [81:22] you feel like you're searching. When you [81:23] have a sense of purpose, it gives you a [81:25] mechanism to meet people. It gives you a [81:27] mechanism to make decisions. It gives [81:28] you a mechanism to talk about yourself [81:29] in a way that's quite inspiring to [81:30] others. You know, when you say your why [81:32] and you somebody says, "So, what do you [81:33] do?" You say, "I wake up every single [81:35] day to inspire people to do what [81:36] inspires them. What do you do?" [81:38] You know? Like it's [81:41] it's I yeah, I do I do and I think it's [81:44] it's not the thing that makes you less [81:45] lonely. I think it's a mechanism to make [81:47] you less lonely. [81:48] Just as you said that, that why you just [81:50] gave, it becomes a magnet for me. [81:52] Yeah. [81:52] Because then I know who your people are [81:54] and I know what to talk to you about and [81:55] it throws down this bridge for me to [81:57] walk across. [81:57] Yeah. Versus, yeah, I'm a dentist. [82:01] Or I don't know. [82:02] Which is even worse. [82:03] Which is even worse. [82:04] Yeah. [82:04] Yeah. So, so yeah, that that doesn't [82:06] seem unusual. Distribution of people [82:08] feeling lonely worldwide by gender. [82:11] So, it's about 50/50. [82:12] Mhm. [82:14] Are you surprised by that? I thought [82:16] for some reason I thought men would be [82:17] more lonely. [82:19] Not at all lonely looks like women do [82:22] better. [82:25] I would think Do you think you thought [82:26] men were more lonely? [82:27] I thought [82:27] men would be more lonely. [82:29] I also don't know what the age groups [82:30] are. Cuz like [82:32] I want to know what how they like what [82:33] age are they to start are they starting [82:35] at? Is it 18? [82:37] I guess that if we just put that all [82:38] aside, I mean women being slightly less [82:40] lonely [82:41] than men [82:43] I think makes sense cuz I think women [82:45] are probably better at [82:47] making friends. Maybe I have that wrong. [82:49] What else we got here? Adults mental [82:50] health health ratings. [82:52] 68% of people who have depression are [82:54] lonely and 67% of people who have [82:55] anxiety are lonely. [82:58] Do you think good mental health is a [82:59] foundation for being [83:02] uh not lonely, I guess. [83:04] No. [83:04] I think having somebody who cares about [83:06] you is a foundation for not being [83:08] lonely. [83:09] And when you're in a period of strained [83:11] mental fitness [83:13] it definitely can manifest as loneliness [83:15] and anxiety. [83:17] And the best way to manage through that [83:19] period of [83:20] is to lean on the people who you know [83:22] love you. That will help. [83:24] So I don't think you can separate the [83:26] two. So does it affect it? Of course it [83:28] affects it. [83:29] Can it make you withdraw from your [83:30] friends? Of course it can. [83:33] Um [83:35] So [83:36] I don't think you can separate the two. [83:37] I read um a couple of years ago that [83:39] when people are lonely, they fall into a [83:42] state of self-preservation because of [83:44] some evolutionary [83:45] uh sort of mechanism which meant that if [83:47] we were alone on the [83:49] Serengeti in Africa [83:51] we would sleep worse, we'd become more [83:53] selfish, we'd become more angry. [83:55] Cortisol levels would be up, which means [83:56] more inflammation. And this idea of [83:58] self-preservation basically means that [83:59] lonely people become more selfish, more [84:00] bitter, more angry. And that that's not [84:03] conducive, ironically, with finding more [84:05] friends, but it is conducive with [84:06] survival. [84:08] It is conducive with being able to fend [84:09] for yourself. [84:10] it's more conducive survival as an [84:12] individual. [84:13] Yeah. [84:13] So like if you're on a deserted island [84:15] Mhm. [84:16] and you're lonely and all those things [84:18] and the cortisol rises and you become [84:20] better at [84:21] being on edge. [84:22] Being on edge, which is a survival [84:24] mechanism, right? [84:25] Mhm. [84:25] But, if you live [84:27] in a community with other people, then [84:28] it is counterproductive, because we are [84:31] social animals. And I need you to help [84:33] me, and you need to help me. [84:35] So, if we live in tribe together, and [84:37] I'm the selfish [ __ ] I'm not going [84:40] You're not going to wake me and alert me [84:41] to danger tonight. [84:42] Mhm. [84:43] You're just going to leave me. So, so [84:45] it's a it's a it's a Though I think it's [84:46] 100% true, [84:48] in a social environment, it becomes [84:50] counterproductive. And I think you're [84:51] right. When somebody feels lonely, they [84:53] do go into survival, and they become [84:54] paranoid, and they think everybody's out [84:55] to get them, and it's But, the problem [84:57] is is you don't live on a desert island. [84:59] And that's one of the reasons I think [85:00] it's up it's dangerous. [85:02] We're increasingly being living on on [85:04] islands. The islands are different now. [85:06] They're four walls in a in a white city. [85:08] And um [85:10] it's so funny that so many of my friends [85:11] are using this word loneliness. [85:14] When 10, 20 years ago, it wasn't it [85:16] wasn't something that I had frequently [85:17] from [85:18] from adults. But, now it seems to be [85:19] also common. In fact, my masseuse [85:21] yesterday was saying to me that [85:24] she's lonely. [85:25] And this is a woman that lives in Los [85:27] Angeles, [85:29] has people around her, but she's lonely. [85:31] Yeah. [85:31] And I remember when she went, and she's [85:33] cuz we had a conversation on our text, [85:34] and said, "Oh, thank you for for being [85:35] so open and stuff." I was thinking about [85:37] like what advice I could give her. She's [85:39] got no friends. She's in Los Angeles. [85:41] She's desperate for friends. She doesn't [85:43] have a partner anymore, cuz she's had a [85:44] divorce. What advice do you give [85:46] someone? Is it take more risks? [85:48] So, it's it's too it's easy to give the [85:50] obvious advice. Like, you got to put [85:51] yourself out there, right? But, when [85:53] you're in a period of loneliness and [85:54] stress, it you it's hard to find that [85:56] that energy and that risk-taking, right? [85:58] Especially when you're down on yourself. [86:00] We've all been there. I've definitely [86:01] been there. But, the [86:03] um I think for me, what I've learned is [86:06] um to put myself second. Meaning, don't [86:07] worry. Don't try and solve solve my [86:09] problem. But, do I have somebody else [86:10] who's lonely that I can help? [86:12] Like, how do I help somebody else who's [86:13] dealing with their loneliness? [86:15] And it's the act of service that is so [86:17] valuable. [86:18] If, you know, you guys are talking and [86:19] she has many clients and somebody else [86:21] like and her willing to admit that I'm [86:23] lonely, that one of her clients might [86:25] say, [86:26] "You know, me, too." Like, her ability [86:28] to admit her loneliness out loud creates [86:29] a safe environment for somebody else to [86:31] admit the same. And then once she learns [86:33] that they're lonely, now she can say, [86:35] "Tell me about it." And then she can [86:36] talk them through it and then hold space [86:38] for them. And her ability to help [86:40] somebody else manage or understand their [86:42] loneliness will will help her. [86:44] So interesting cuz one of the hallmarks [86:45] of her personality, if you met this [86:47] person, something she says to me every [86:48] single time she comes over [86:50] for the treatment, is that she doesn't [86:53] like sharing herself with people because [86:55] she thinks if people get to know her, [86:56] they'll change. So literally, she's been [86:58] my masseuse for many years now and [87:01] If people get to know her, they will [87:03] change? [87:03] She's scared about people knowing how [87:05] She's scared about people knowing the [87:06] details of her life, so she guards it [87:08] all. And it's it took me and I'm someone [87:10] that just asks way too many questions of [87:12] every stranger I meet. [87:14] It took me like 20 sessions just to [87:16] figure out she had a family. I had no [87:18] idea she had two kids. Took me She goes [87:20] And when I asked her, her body language [87:22] went like this. [87:25] "Yes, I have kids." And I was like, [87:27] "Why? Why are you so guarded with your [87:28] information?" "Well, if people knew who [87:30] really I really am and they knew more [87:31] about me, then they'll change or [87:34] um they may not like me anymore or [87:35] they'll think differently about me, so I [87:36] just keep it to myself." [87:37] But I mean, this is the age-old problem. [87:39] I mean, it's everything you said when [87:40] you when people who are driven only by [87:41] the thing that they want, you know, [87:42] versus the givers. And this [87:45] I mean, this is the age-old problem, [87:45] which is I'm never going to I'm going to [87:46] keep my walls up high. I never want to [87:48] love anybody because then I'll get hurt. [87:49] And then you just end up lonely and [87:50] hurt. [87:51] And this is This is goes This This is [87:53] goes back to struggle, which is [87:55] This goes Look, you and I both know that [87:58] uh that if somebody who chooses to go on [88:00] an entrepreneurial venture or adventure, [88:02] the statistics bear out that the [88:05] over 90% of all new businesses will fail [88:07] in the first 3 years. [88:09] Right? What idiot would ever start a [88:11] business? Right? You have to be [88:12] compelled by something [88:14] else to make you do something with [88:16] overwhelming [88:17] statistical chance of failure. Right? [88:20] And and it's opening yourself up to [88:22] failure [88:23] that is the thing that makes it work. [88:25] Mhm. [88:26] You know? [88:27] At least for a small small percentage. [88:29] Of course. [88:30] But it's the same for love, which is [88:32] or relationship or friendship, which is [88:35] it absolutely comes with risk. There's [88:37] nothing riskier. Like, yeah, they will [88:39] they some of them might change. Yes. [88:41] Some of them might not like you for that [88:44] Yes. Yes. [88:47] And the odds are equal that somebody [88:48] will fall in love with you and love you [88:50] and like you and think you're the best [88:51] thing and think you're amazing. And so, [88:53] if you can't take the risk, you can't [88:55] get the reward. If you don't play the [88:56] lottery, you don't win the you know, you [88:57] don't win the jackpot. If you aren't [88:59] willing to take I'm not telling you to [89:01] open up and tell everybody your deepest [89:02] darkest secrets. [89:04] But if you're not willing to give [89:05] somebody anything to latch on to to be [89:07] like if you can't give them anything to [89:09] to say, "Me, too." [89:12] Mhm. [89:12] then [89:15] then it's going to be a hard road. Or [89:16] it'll take somebody to chip away at you [89:19] 20 times. You know? To before you open [89:21] up. But [89:22] but the fact that you did and she got it [89:24] to open up a little bit, [89:26] she could make a friend in you. [89:27] Now she's fully open and we've been [89:29] through everything. I know why she wants [89:30] the house to be on the list. [89:31] you go. You see? [89:32] That thing down [89:33] have to point out to her that this [89:34] friendship and that you know so much and [89:36] that she feels so safe with you only [89:38] happened [89:39] because [89:41] um you chipped away at her and she [89:43] finally wore her down and she opened up. [89:46] And it can happen in two directions, [89:47] right? Which is [89:48] sometimes we have to take the little [89:50] risk to just tell somebody some a little [89:51] something about ourselves to find [89:54] something. Or sometimes it's somebody [89:56] who's so curious about us that they chip [89:58] away and chip away and chip away and [89:59] chip away and chip away until we give up [90:01] and open up and they that person becomes [90:02] a friend. [90:03] Mhm. [90:03] You know? And so one of the reasons she [90:06] should be grateful for the friendship is [90:07] you kept trying. You could have just [90:08] tried it three times and be like, [90:09] "Forget it. I'll just lie here quietly [90:10] and have a massage." You know? [90:13] So, [90:14] yeah, I mean, all of this stuff comes [90:16] with risk. [90:17] I could see it in her face, though. I [90:18] could see [90:19] But, you're also curious. [90:21] Yeah, I could see this [90:22] lucked out because you're curious about [90:23] people. [90:25] Is this what connection is? You when you [90:27] said me, too. Finding something to say [90:28] me, too with someone. Is that the [90:31] essence of what like connection is? [90:34] I mean, that I can mean, it could be [90:36] values, it could be interests, it could [90:37] be many things. But, I think to find [90:41] I think, yes. Like, this is I mean, if [90:43] you want to go political, [90:45] you know, one of the problems in our [90:48] politics is both sides think they're [90:50] right and both sides think the other [90:52] side is wrong. [90:53] And neither side is willing to try to [90:56] even understand what the other person's [90:58] point of view is without thinking them [91:00] an idiot or thinking them wrong or [91:01] thinking them sheeple. [91:03] And [91:04] the ability to say, "Can you tell me [91:06] more about how you came to your beliefs? [91:08] I'm genuinely curious." [91:10] And to not agree or disagree, [91:13] but to be curious, to be an [91:15] investigator, you know? And I and I've [91:19] done this with people who have polar [91:21] opposite political views with me. [91:23] At some point, we will get to a level of [91:26] me just chipping away trying to [91:27] understand that they will say something [91:29] that I'm like, "100% I agree with that." [91:32] And then from that point on, there's a [91:34] there's a simple validation, not [91:36] agreement, [91:37] but a validation that your opinions do [91:39] matter and we do have common ground that [91:41] we can build from there. And on that on [91:43] that validation, they become vastly more [91:45] open to my point of view, also, and [91:47] curious to my point of view, also. [91:49] And so, [91:51] yeah, the person the person like [91:53] the ability to listen and be curious, [91:54] even if you disagree, [91:56] is one of the most underappreciated [91:58] skills on the planet. And yeah, I think [92:00] when you find [92:01] the ability to say, "I agree." [92:02] then you can find community you can and [92:04] maybe that's what we need to heal this [92:06] country or most of the countries in the [92:08] world right now, which is one group or [92:11] one person [92:13] to just be curious rather than agree or [92:15] disagree. [92:15] There's something about relationships [92:17] here as well because my girlfriend is [92:18] you've met my partner and um she's very [92:20] spiritual but also like all of us she's [92:23] emotional. So sometimes in those [92:24] interactions when we sit down and [92:26] there's a problem and we spend the first [92:28] 60 minutes to 90 minutes trying to [92:29] figure out what the problem is, it [92:31] doesn't sound very logical to me. [92:33] And one of the things that I think [92:35] sort of is adjacent to what you're [92:37] saying is my job in that moment actually [92:39] isn't to like pass through truth and to [92:42] figure and to correct truth. [92:45] It is to sit and let someone [92:48] get it out. [92:48] Get it out. [92:50] So you and I have the same problem. [92:52] Yeah, we do. [92:53] Which is we live above our necks. [92:55] Yeah. [92:56] And you and I both have the same [92:57] struggle which is to learn to live below [92:59] our necks. [93:00] Right? Like you and I are head people. [93:02] And we have to learn to be more heart. [93:04] Mhm. [93:05] Right? And I want to understand [93:06] everything, explain everything, [93:07] you know, evaluate everything, analyze [93:09] everything. And when I come to my [93:11] emotions I'll give you an analysis. [93:13] You know, when it comes to your emotions [93:14] I'll give you an analysis. And so I have [93:16] to learn to be like I feel this [93:19] and that's it. And I feel the same way. [93:21] It's funny because I'm good at it with [93:22] art. You know, I always tell people you [93:23] don't have to understand art. I'll take [93:24] you to museum, I'll take you to gallery [93:26] and if you look at a piece [93:28] and I know you're intimidated come [93:29] because you don't understand art or you [93:31] don't understand music, whatever it is. [93:32] And all you need to do, this is the only [93:34] rule is [93:35] do you like it? [93:36] I do. [93:38] Why? I don't know, I just like it. [93:40] That's it. You're done. [93:42] You're done. [93:43] I don't like it. Why? I don't know, I [93:44] just don't like it. Great. [93:46] Excellent. And now we're going to look [93:47] at four, five, six, 10 pieces that you [93:49] like and I'm going to see four, five, [93:51] six, 10 pieces that you don't like. And [93:52] I'll be like [93:54] you like all of the impressionists and [93:56] you hate all the old masters. So, why [93:58] don't we just go see more [93:58] impressionists? [93:59] Mhm. [94:00] You know? And so, when when your [94:02] girlfriend opens up to you, you know, [94:05] you don't have to agree, you don't have [94:06] to disagree. You just have to And you [94:07] and I both have to learn to stop [94:09] thinking [94:10] and to just [94:12] like feel something. When somebody says, [94:13] "Where do you feel it?" I'm like, "What [94:14] That's the stupidest question I've ever [94:16] heard. Where do I feel it?" [94:17] And they've literally like I've had [94:18] somebody take me on this journey, and [94:20] she goes "You told me an emotion you [94:21] have, Simon. [94:23] You told me an emotion." Yes. [94:25] "Where do you feel it? In your body, [94:27] where do you feel it?" [94:29] And I'm sitting there going [94:31] "You've got to be kidding me." [94:33] You know? [94:34] But all right, we'll go through this. [94:37] All right. And she says, "So, you said [94:39] you feel X." I'm like, "Yes." "All [94:41] right, where in your body did you have [94:42] some sort of reaction?" I [94:44] here. "What happened?" [94:47] It got a little tighter in my chest. [94:49] "Okay." And I went on this journey with [94:52] my friend [94:54] with my friend Bea Bea Oche. She's [94:56] she's incredible. [94:58] And she took me on this journey, and she [95:01] does repair with couples, and she's just [95:02] incredible. [95:04] And she helped me recognize that my body [95:06] does react to my feelings. [95:08] Tension in my shoulders, [95:11] heavy breathing in my chest, [95:14] clenching my fists, you know? [95:16] Like my body does react. [95:17] Mhm. [95:18] And so, I'm learning to experience [95:21] feelings beneath my neck, when my [95:24] inclination is to do everything above [95:26] above the neck. [95:27] It's a hard skill. [95:28] Oh my god, it's hard. And so, I have [95:29] men. [95:29] And so, when you're when you meet [95:31] spiritual people, they are all below the [95:33] neck. [95:35] And [95:36] we think it's stupid, [95:38] but they recognize that we have an [95:40] ability to feel because we want to think [95:42] about everything. [95:43] And so, we both have a lot to learn from [95:45] each other, which is there Thinking [95:47] about things has value. [95:48] Not all the time. [95:50] And so, your girlfriend And I cuz I know [95:53] her [95:53] her ability to [95:56] know her body when she has feelings [95:59] I think is way more [96:00] is has a lot of value to you and to me. [96:03] I think it's like the biggest [96:03] opportunity that I have to form [96:05] relationships. Yeah. [96:06] Change in number of posts for automation [96:08] prone jobs [96:10] compared to manual intensive jobs. [96:12] So this is a graph that shows the drop [96:14] in job postings online for jobs [96:19] around automation. [96:21] It's yeah, the not knowledge work is [96:23] going to get hammered by AI. Um [96:28] I met a guy in Japan [96:31] who [96:32] he's one of the very few [96:34] guys left like a hundred of them left [96:36] 150 of them left who make samurai swords [96:39] in the traditional samurai sword way you [96:41] make them you hammer the metal and he [96:43] folds his own metal and he makes [96:44] samurai swords they made them the way [96:46] they made them 200 years ago. [96:48] And we went to this little workshop. [96:50] And he's this little old guy [96:52] and he's telling us the story [96:55] like how did you do this? He's like well [96:56] I had a desk job I worked in a company [96:57] and I woke up one day I was like [96:59] I can't do this. Like this is this can't [97:01] be my life. [97:03] And I did I've always been enamored by [97:05] sword making so I found an [97:06] apprenticeship [97:08] and tried to learn [97:10] and you know I'm I I'm just starting to [97:13] get the hang of it and but I have a lot [97:15] of room for improvement. And we're like [97:17] how long have you been doing this? He [97:18] said 30 years. [97:20] But that's so Japanese. You know the [97:22] Japanese like they'll never be good at [97:23] this I'll just keep working at it. And [97:25] and like it's such hard work. [97:28] But he [97:30] I think there's something to be said for [97:32] I think a lot of us [97:34] like think about how many white [97:35] knowledge workers like ask them what [97:37] their hobbies are. [97:39] You know? [97:42] And like maybe there is an opportunity [97:44] to learn a skill. [97:46] I mean look at look at look at lockdown. [97:48] We all went through lockdown. [97:50] I mean, what skill did you practice [97:51] during lockdown? What did you learn? [97:53] DJing, running, [97:55] cycling. [97:56] DJing. [97:57] DJing. [97:59] Right? [98:00] I did Kintsugi. [98:02] It's the Japanese art of fixing broken [98:04] things with gold. [98:06] So, basically, you take a broken plate [98:08] or broken cup and you put it together [98:10] and with gold paint or gold epoxy, you [98:14] put it together and you make it The [98:15] whole concept is [98:16] you can make something more beautiful [98:19] like things can get more beautiful after [98:20] they're broken, right? I love the [98:22] philosophy of it. [98:23] I spent hours doing freaking Kintsugi. [98:25] Ask me how much Kintsugi I've done since [98:27] we came out of lockdown. [98:28] How much DJing have you done? [98:30] Zero. [98:33] And so, maybe all this free time [98:36] that we're supposed to get, which I [98:38] still don't think will happen, [98:40] maybe it's not such a bad thing. [98:43] Think about the joy you had DJing. I had [98:44] so much fun doing Kintsugi. I had so [98:46] much fun. I would spend hours just my [98:49] head down, focused. I was so [98:52] relaxed, [98:53] not thinking about work. So, why why [98:55] That's the other question. Peop- We're [98:57] talking about how we're all going to [98:59] have all the spare time. We've lost all [99:00] of our spare time. We have no spare time [99:03] because all we do is work and think [99:04] about work and talk about work. Like [99:07] if we go back 40 years, 50 years, there [99:09] was plenty of spare time. And people [99:11] went bowling and they went to the movies [99:13] and they went over to each each other's [99:14] houses for dinner and they cooked. [99:19] Isn't it a good thing that we're [99:22] getting time back? You know, a lot of us [99:25] got a lot of good things out of [99:27] lockdown. [99:28] And that's extreme. So, like, maybe [99:32] maybe it's okay that we get some time [99:34] back cuz it sounds like we've lost all [99:36] of our own time. [99:37] It fixed the loneliness. You have space [99:38] for relationships. [99:39] You'd have space for relationships. [99:40] You'd have space to try things. And we [99:42] couldn't bury ourselves in work and [99:43] escape from our lives that we hate by [99:46] just burying ourselves in work. Like, [99:49] maybe maybe AI doing some of the work [99:52] for us is the thing we've been desperate [99:54] for for the past 30 years. [99:58] Just saying. [100:01] This is quite embarrassing for me to [100:03] admit, but if you know me well, there's [100:05] something that you know about me, which [100:06] is a function of my personality, and [100:08] that is that I lose everything. I've [100:10] lost my wallet, I've lost multiple [100:11] passports. I now actually have two [100:13] passports because there's a high [100:14] probability of me losing one. And when [100:16] you lose your wallet overseas, as I have [100:17] many times, it's a particular [100:19] inconvenience because you also lose your [100:20] driving license and your credit cards [100:22] and those kinds of things. And that's [100:23] why I'm so happy that our show sponsor [100:25] Ekster have invented this thing I have [100:27] in my hand. They have partnered with [100:29] Apple's Find My technology. So, all I [100:31] have to do is open that app and play a [100:34] noise, and it will tell me where my [100:35] wallet is. Ekster wallets are slim, [100:38] they're made of recycled aluminum, and [100:40] they block various types of digital [100:42] theft. And with one click, your cards [100:44] can pop up and are ready to go. So, if [100:47] this sounds like the kind of thing you [100:48] or a friend needs, visit ekster.com. You [100:51] can use code Steven, and you'll get 10% [100:53] off plus free shipping and a 100-day [100:56] trial. That's ekster.com and use code [100:58] Steven at checkout. [101:00] For anybody that likes matcha, for [101:01] anybody that likes lattes, one of my [101:03] companies has just launched canned [101:05] matcha lattes. Now, I was speaking with [101:07] the founder, Marissa, and she said that [101:09] creating this product has been no easy [101:11] feat. They tried launching in 2021, but [101:14] as is often the case in business, the [101:16] development process turned out to be [101:17] extremely complex. So, they've spent the [101:19] last 4 years testing and refining every [101:22] single detail to create this, [101:24] which is a perfect Ted matcha vanilla [101:26] latte and a perfect Ted matcha [101:29] strawberry latte. So, what we have here [101:31] in these cans is barista quality matcha [101:34] straight from the can, and it tastes [101:36] like it's just been made from your [101:37] favorite cafe, naturally sweet and [101:39] naturally creamy in a can. And the [101:41] reason why I've invested in this company [101:43] and I drink matcha is because matcha as [101:45] an energy source gives me lasting energy [101:47] without the big crashes that I get from [101:48] other products. Grab their [101:50] ready-to-drink canned matcha lattes at [101:51] Waitrose, Tesco's, and Holland & Barrett [101:53] and perfectmatcha.com where you can use [101:55] code Steven40 for 40% off your first [101:58] order. [102:01] What are you struggling with in this [102:04] season of life? [102:06] I think I've asked you this in every [102:07] conversation we've had and the answer's [102:09] evolved conversation to conversation. [102:11] Yeah. We'll both go. [102:14] I'm doing so much right now. By the way, [102:17] absolute joy. [102:19] And I wish I had more time in a day. [102:22] And not in the sense that I'm [102:24] deprioritizing my friends. You know, you [102:26] talked about how you you know, you you [102:27] would give them all your money to to [102:29] secure them, but you don't give them any [102:30] time. I actually treat a lot of I've [102:32] actually gotten very good at this. It's [102:33] probably when you write a book about [102:35] friendship, you start to like take [102:36] yourself on a little bit. [102:37] Where I I will schedule friends like [102:39] meetings [102:40] in the middle of the day. Haven't seen a [102:42] friend for a while? [102:44] Um 4:00 in the afternoon? [102:47] Tea with? [102:49] And I go and I leave the office like [102:52] I'm going to a meeting cuz nobody says, [102:53] "Hey Simon, where you going?" Well, [102:54] going to a meeting. [102:55] Where are you having the meeting? At [102:56] that restaurant. People like, "Have [102:57] fun." Nobody will give me any kind of [103:00] grief if I'm leaving to go to a meeting. [103:03] Now I go and see a friend. [103:06] And And when somebody says, "Can I [103:08] cancel this friend's tea with friend [103:09] because that you that you have a phone [103:11] call you've neglected?" I'm like, "No." [103:13] Just like you wouldn't cancel on my [103:13] meeting. [103:15] Don't cancel on So, I treat I I put it [103:17] in and I give them equal weighting [103:20] to things that I have to do at work [103:21] because I've become much more [103:22] discerning. Like, do I have to have this [103:25] meeting or this phone call today Mhm. or [103:27] can I do it next week? [103:29] I could do it next week. [103:30] And you realize we fake [103:32] we fake or we add fake urgency to [103:34] things. [103:36] And I I have a friend who's kind of [103:38] amazing. [103:39] He He's way busier than me. And he [103:44] he says, "I don't want to spend time [103:46] with anybody like I saw I saw it was [103:47] really funny. He came out of a meeting [103:49] and it was he had a meeting with a very [103:50] fancy person who's who's courting him [103:52] for business, right? [103:54] Or he should be courting the other guy [103:56] actually. [103:58] Very fancy person. And he comes out of [104:00] the meeting I'm like, "How was it?" He's [104:01] like, "Total waste of time." I'm like, [104:03] "You don't want to do busi- He doesn't [104:04] want to work with you?" He was like, [104:05] "No, he wants to work with me. He wants [104:07] to work with me badly. [104:09] Total waste of time." I'm like, "What [104:10] are you talking about?" He was like, [104:11] "He's just some rich [ __ ] [104:14] Like I learned nothing. [104:16] I didn't enjoy it. And I don't want to [104:18] work with him." And I was like, "Tell me [104:20] more." He's like, "I only want to work [104:21] with people who when I spend time with [104:23] them, they teach me something, I laugh, [104:27] or I feel inspired when I walk away. And [104:29] if somebody sucks my energy, [104:32] I do not want to I do not want to work [104:33] with them." [104:35] And I was like, [104:36] "That's amazing to have that level of [104:39] confidence that you would turn down [104:41] money in your business. [104:43] And And Now what if we applied that to [104:46] as much as possible in our lives? Like [104:48] what if we stopped hanging out with [104:50] friends who just sucked our energy? [104:52] Are they really friends? [104:54] Rather than spend more time with people [104:56] who we enjoy. What if we take meetings [104:59] from people we're excited to take a [105:00] meeting with, not that we just see [105:01] dollar signs and opportunity. And what [105:04] if we only partner with companies where [105:05] we really like the people who are who [105:08] work at those companies. Doesn't You [105:09] don't have to have a relationship with [105:10] the CEO, but I really they've got a good [105:12] culture. I really like working with [105:13] them. And we make a little less money [105:15] with them [105:16] versus that other company, but [105:18] I I really like them because when things [105:20] go wrong, I want to call that person. [105:22] And And people ask me this all the time [105:24] and they say, "How do I choose a [105:24] publisher?" And I've seen this mistake a [105:26] thousand times. I've seen people like [105:28] like former CEOs who are like, "I now [105:30] I'm going to write my book." I'm like, [105:31] "Great. You've got a lot to say." And [105:34] they've got multiple offers and there's [105:35] a bidding war. [105:36] And they always ask me, "Which one [105:38] should I go with? Which publisher should [105:39] I go with?" And I always say the same [105:40] thing. Choose the one you're going to [105:42] fight with best. [105:43] Choose the publisher you're going to [105:44] fight with best. They're like, "What?" [105:46] I'm like, "The goal is to make a good [105:47] book. There's going to be creative [105:49] tension. There's going to be fights. [105:51] Choose the the the publisher who [105:52] believes in your idea, believes in you, [105:54] wants to make a great book, who you're [105:56] going to fight with really well." [105:57] They Every single one of them ignores [105:59] me. [106:00] Every single one of them takes the [106:01] biggest bid, and every single one of [106:02] them has written a shitty book that [106:04] didn't sell. [106:04] Isn't that just relationship advice as [106:06] well, though? [106:07] Probably, yeah. [106:10] Choose the person you're going to fight [106:11] with best. [106:13] And the the the number of times that we [106:16] forget about the quality of the product [106:18] and we just want the [106:20] It's the same It's the same for job [106:21] interviews. You know, don't This is [106:24] especially true for for young people. [106:26] Like, when you're interviewing in in in [106:27] a relatively like junior job, [106:30] entry-level or slightly above, [106:33] don't worry about how much they're going [106:33] to pay you. [106:34] Like, just [106:36] as long as they pay you a livable wage, [106:37] you know, [106:39] choose the job [106:41] choose the job based on who you're going [106:43] to work for. [106:44] Choose the person I used to in early on [106:46] in my career, people, you know, HR [106:48] people would say, "What are you looking [106:49] for?" I would say I I'd always say the [106:50] same thing. [106:51] I'd said, "The thing that I'm looking [106:52] for is probably like looking for love, [106:54] but I'm looking for a mentor." [106:56] And every time I'd evaluate a job, I [106:57] didn't care how glamorous the brand was. [106:59] I didn't care how much money they were [107:00] going to pay me. And by the way, it's [107:01] not like I had money. I knew they were [107:02] going to pay me something. I knew I [107:03] could pay my bills. It's not like I've [107:05] got I'm not a I'm not a trust fund baby. [107:07] Like, I needed I needed an income. [107:09] But one company offered me, you know, [107:10] $5,000 more, and one company offered me [107:13] $5,000 less, but I really like the [107:15] person over here, I took that job. And [107:17] it was the If If I got one thing right [107:20] as a as a as a as a young person, [107:22] it's that I always chose jobs based on [107:24] who I would work for, not how much they [107:25] were going to pay me or what account or [107:27] what brand I was going to work on. [107:29] And that's the one thing I got right. [107:31] Cuz yes, I made less money than all my [107:33] friends in the short term, but I got a I [107:35] got a I got an education and a care and [107:37] a love from somebody who took me under [107:39] their wing. I am a I am I am I learned [107:43] leadership from Dennis Glennon. I [107:45] learned leadership from Peter and [107:46] Tomassio. I learned leadership from [107:49] Pamela Maffitt. I learned leadership [107:51] from these leaders who took a weird [107:53] liking to me and took me under their [107:54] wing. And they were exceptionally good [107:56] leaders themselves, and I got that [107:58] education. [107:59] And all of them in the early days paid [108:01] me less than I could have got somewhere [108:03] else. [108:05] And it's the same. Choose the people. [108:07] In my um in my book that I wrote the [108:09] first chapter in it talks about this [108:11] idea of these five buckets. [108:13] And I'm giving I'm trying to give young [108:15] kids advice on how to prioritize their [108:17] career, and it sounds somewhat similar [108:18] to you. So, I'm going to throw this [108:18] concept at you and see [108:20] see how how it lands with you. So, the [108:22] idea was that we all have these five [108:23] buckets when we're starting our career. [108:25] And the first bucket is your knowledge. [108:26] The second bucket is your skills. Now, [108:28] these are the [108:29] only buckets that [108:31] no professional earthquake in your [108:33] career can unfill. You can be fired, you [108:35] can be canceled, whatever. You still [108:36] have your knowledge and skills. But the [108:38] other three buckets I'm about to name, [108:39] they can fluctuate. Bucket number three [108:42] is your network. Can fluctuate. Bucket [108:45] number four is your resources. Can [108:48] fluctuate. And bucket number five is [108:49] your reputation. Can fluctuate. And the [108:51] idea is that focusing on those first two [108:53] buckets when you're young, opti- [108:55] choosing jobs based on how much they're [108:57] going to fill those two buckets, and [108:58] also what they're going to fill them [108:59] with, and how relevant that information [109:01] is. And when knowledge is applied, it [109:03] becomes a skill. So, you focus on fill- [109:05] filling your knowledge, you apply that [109:06] knowledge into skills, and that really [109:08] is the essence of career longevity. And [109:10] as I noticed over time with people that [109:11] I I hired and then watched them [109:13] throughout their careers and what they [109:14] did, [109:16] it seems to me that life over the long [109:18] term typically brings you back down or [109:20] up to the level of your knowledge and [109:22] skills. I had this one kid step down [109:24] from my company because he got a job [109:26] offer at 21 to be a CEO in America. And [109:28] as he departs, I'm thinking he has not [109:30] got the knowledge and skills to be a [109:31] CEO. Within 24 months, the company had [109:33] gone bust. He was back down to doing the [109:35] same job he did for me. And I thought [109:37] life just like resets you to the level [109:38] of your knowledge and skills over time. [109:41] So, what do you think of this? Are these [109:42] I think you we're saying the exact same [109:44] thing. You did it more eloquently than [109:45] me. You know, I think I think it's 100% [109:48] right. [109:49] Uh um and the people who will fill that [109:52] bucket with knowledge and skills are the [109:54] people who again, for some reason, [109:56] they're good people, they're good [109:57] leaders, they take a liking to you, and [109:59] they will give you they will put you in [110:01] situations, [110:03] and they will let you screw up and fix [110:04] your own problems, fix your own [110:06] mistakes. [110:07] Then that's what my bosses did for me. [110:09] They rewarded my behavior when I got it [110:10] right, as opposed to my results. [110:13] Never got rewarded for my results. I [110:14] always got rewarded for my behavior. So, [110:16] if I showed initiative, I got a I got a [110:18] reward even if the results didn't [110:19] follow, right? [110:21] And I could [110:22] I can tell you a great story on that. [110:23] And if I got things wrong, they would [110:25] say, "Hmm, well, [110:27] what are you going to do? [110:28] Really screwed that one up, didn't you? [110:30] Okay, what are you going to do?" [110:32] And they didn't [110:34] they weren't happy with me, [110:36] but they let me fix my own messes, and [110:38] they stood by, and I knew that they were [110:39] there if I needed them. [110:41] You know, Peter and Tomagio, one of the [110:42] best leaders I ever worked for, [110:43] annoyingly never answered a single [110:45] question I asked. "Hey Peter, what [110:47] should I do?" "I don't know. What do you [110:48] think we should do?" "Well, I think we [110:49] should do this." I'm like, "Okay, so go [110:50] do that." [110:51] You know? What do you think Peter I'm [110:54] asking you because I don't know. That's [110:56] why I'm asking you. He was like, "Ooh, [110:57] well, [110:58] you probably go think about that." [111:00] He was he was he was the worst, but what [111:02] he taught me was self-reliance. [111:03] Mhm. [111:04] What what he taught me was [111:05] self-reliance. What he taught me was [111:07] if I don't know, then I have to go keep [111:09] searching and keep talking to people. I [111:10] have to have a point of view. [111:12] Mhm. [111:13] And may not be right. [111:15] And I'll find that out myself, too. [111:17] And I also learned to have backup plans [111:18] from him cuz something went haywire on [111:20] me. And I went so wrong, it ended up [111:23] being okay, but they he made me sweat [111:26] it. I remember at the end of the day [111:28] at the end of this whole thing that went [111:29] wrong that was totally my fault. [111:31] The phone rings, I see his It's 6:00 [111:33] p.m. [111:35] Phone rings, I see his name come up on [111:36] the caller ID, and I pick up the phone. [111:37] I remember the whole call word for word, [111:39] right? [111:40] I pick up the phone, I go, "Hello?" [111:42] He says, [111:43] "Close call today." I said, "Yep." He [111:46] said, "Better to get shaved by the [111:48] bullet than hit by the bullet." I went, [111:50] "Yep." He said, "Have a good night." I [111:53] said, "You, too." [111:55] That was the whole phone call. [111:56] And so, [111:58] since then, since that experience, I [112:00] always have a backup plan. Now, it [112:01] doesn't mean it's all ready to go, but [112:02] I've thought about if this thing that [112:04] I'm trying to do doesn't work, what will [112:06] I do? [112:07] And I have at least committed some [112:09] thought to it. So, if if something does [112:10] go wrong, I'm like, I'm a little bit [112:11] ahead. [112:13] You either have it planned or I'm like, [112:14] "Okay, okay. Don't worry. I kind of if [112:16] this happened, I thought about this [112:17] already." [112:18] And it's only because of these great [112:19] leaders. [112:20] And it goes This is this recurring theme [112:22] of this whole conversation, which is [112:24] it's the struggle, it's the journey, not [112:26] the destination, it's the human beings [112:28] that guide us, it's the human beings [112:30] that hold space for us, that make us [112:32] better at what we do, better better than [112:34] how we show up in the world. And AI will [112:37] absolutely make our lives easier like [112:38] most technology makes our lives easier. [112:41] That's kind of the rule the rule of [112:42] technology, which is to make life a [112:44] little easier, a little more efficient, [112:45] a little quicker, a little less, you [112:48] know, strain on the muscles. You know, [112:50] that's [112:51] kind of what it does, you know, from the [112:53] from the plow, you know, [112:55] all the way up to the internet and AI, [112:57] it just makes life a little easier. [113:01] But we're still human beings who are [113:02] forced to live with human beings. [113:03] You're writing a book about friendship [113:04] that we're all waiting for. [113:06] Yeah. [113:07] I'm not going to ask you when it's due [113:08] cuz I don't want to be your publisher, [113:09] but um [113:11] I know that they they chase and chase [113:12] and chase and chase. But my my as my [113:14] closing question is why? Of all the [113:16] things you could have written about [113:17] Simon, you're someone who's able to [113:19] traverse several subject matters across [113:21] business and life and everything in [113:22] between, but you've committed yourself [113:24] to the struggle [113:26] of writing a book about friendship. [113:29] There's an entire industry to help us be [113:31] better leaders. [113:33] Right? There's an entire industry [113:35] to help you have a successful [113:36] relationship or a successful marriage or [113:38] even find a partner, right? Industries, [113:41] books, companies. [113:43] There's very little on how to be a [113:45] friend. [113:46] And if you think about [113:48] if you're going to have a successful [113:49] career [113:50] and can and can survive the stresses of [113:53] career [113:54] and if you're going to have a successful [113:55] romantic relationship or marriage and [113:56] survive that, do you know what what you [113:59] need in both of those circumstances? [114:01] Friends. [114:02] Cuz when your marriage is falling apart, [114:03] you go to a friend. When your job is [114:05] falling apart, you go to a friend. When [114:08] and and there's a few things that I've [114:09] discovered about friends that I find [114:12] delightful. And I have been reorganizing [114:15] my life to as I as I mentioned it [114:18] before, like I've been reorganizing my [114:19] life to ensure that my friends aren't [114:21] taken for granted and that sometimes I [114:23] do deprioritize work in order to see my [114:26] friends and spend time with my friends [114:27] because I know it feels good to them and [114:29] I know it feels good to me. [114:31] And I know that the only reason I can [114:34] get through any work stress or personal [114:36] stress I have is because of those [114:37] magical human beings and I will not take [114:39] them for granted. [114:41] And um doesn't mean it's always easy. [114:44] I'm conflicted often, [114:47] but I'm trying. And I also know if you [114:49] look at the work the world today and [114:50] like there's so much conversation about [114:51] loneliness, depression, anxiety, [114:53] inability to cope with stress, [114:55] even the obsession with longevity. Like [114:57] there's so much about these subjects and [115:00] some people treat it with drugs and then [115:01] medication and vacations and burn like [115:03] there's so many theories. The one thing [115:05] that fixes all of those things [115:08] is friends. [115:09] Friendship is the ultimate bio hack. You [115:11] know, we've talked about this before. I [115:13] fundamentally believe that. [115:15] And if it's so valuable, like if I know [115:17] if you know vegetables are good for you, [115:19] you eat more vegetables. [115:21] If you know exercise is good for you, [115:23] you do more exercise. So if I say [115:24] friends are good for you, [115:25] shouldn't you do more friendships? [115:27] Right? Like shouldn't you Exercise is [115:29] not fun or easy and you have to get over [115:32] a hump sometimes. [115:33] Eating vegetables can sometimes be [115:35] boring and unsatisfying, but you do it [115:37] when you find new ways. And so maybe [115:40] friendship is not always easy or fun, [115:43] but it's still really really good for [115:45] you. [115:46] And it The best thing about friends is [115:47] it actually doesn't taste like spinach. [115:49] It's like you get the benefits of [115:50] spinach, but it tastes like chocolate [115:51] cake. If you get friendship right, [115:53] it's it's the healthiest thing in the [115:55] world. How do I know if someone's a [115:57] friend? [115:58] Have that conversation with them. [116:01] Cuz I know a lot of people. [116:02] Yeah, yeah, I mean like and you have [116:03] deal friends, you know, you have a lot [116:05] of deal friends, you know? [116:06] Yeah. Podcast friends. [116:07] Podcast friends, yeah. Uh [116:10] Work friends. [116:10] You know, and you and we have and like [116:11] look, I'm not talking about There's all [116:13] kinds of friends. There's friends that [116:14] you just like hanging out with. They're [116:15] just fun, but you're not going to go to [116:16] them with your problems or to sort out, [116:19] you know, issues. You're not You're just [116:20] not. Work or personal. They're just fun, [116:24] right? There's nothing wrong with that. [116:26] Um but I think you know, I'm certainly [116:28] guilty of spending time with people that [116:30] you know, they fill a space and they [116:32] make me feel not lonely, but at the end [116:33] of the day, I don't feel smarter, [116:37] inspired, brighter, lighter when they [116:40] when I say goodbye. I'm just like, all [116:41] right, bye. That was fun. [116:42] And I kind of want to spend more time [116:44] with people who lift me, teach me, [116:46] support me, love me, give me a [116:48] I give me a chance to serve. They open [116:50] up to me and let me serve as well. You [116:52] know? [116:53] I struggle to make friends. [116:54] And [116:55] I think [116:57] Do you know why? [116:59] I think [117:01] I [117:03] I think I'm lazy. With it. Lazy with [117:06] friendships. So I will meet someone. [117:08] I'll have [117:09] a great connection with them. And then [117:12] my follow up like I don't really know [117:14] what to do next. [117:16] So I'll meet [117:16] Your follow up is crap. [117:17] Oh [ __ ] hell. [117:19] This is what I mean. Like my I'll meet [117:21] someone [117:21] I'll text you and maybe I'll get a [117:23] response. [117:24] Vice versa. [117:26] I think YOU LEFT ME ON READ. [117:30] BUT YOU YOU'RE THE SAME. ARE YOU THE [117:31] SAME? Or is it just with me? [117:34] It's just with me. [117:35] It's just with you. [117:36] But I but I think my follow up game is [117:37] like crap. I'll meet someone I'll go Oh [117:39] my I'll see I'll see the potential for a [117:41] friendship. And then I won't know [117:44] what I have or maybe I'm just being [117:46] lazy. I'm trying to I want to be honest [117:49] Maybe I just didn't prioritize it. [117:50] I think also when you start having fame [117:52] and money [117:54] and you you just being the boss [117:56] you get away with stuff. [117:58] So you show up late everybody's like [118:01] pissed off and angry and then you show [118:02] up and they're like and you're like [118:03] sorry like no no no no don't worry don't [118:04] worry. [118:05] Right? Like you get away with stuff in [118:07] the world, right? And so I think what [118:09] that does is I I see this with [118:10] celebrities all the time, right? Because [118:13] everybody yeses them to death and they [118:14] get away with it and nobody ever holds [118:15] them accountable. At some point they [118:17] just get lazier and lazier and lazier [118:18] because they can. [118:19] Oh yeah. [118:20] You know? [118:21] Yeah. [118:21] And so you they don't have to put in the [118:22] effort because other people put in the [118:23] effort. [118:24] Yeah. [118:25] And nobody be like [118:26] like a a somebody who's a nobody won't [118:28] say to them [118:29] Yo. [118:30] [ __ ] [118:32] Not respectful. [118:33] Oh you think my schedule doesn't matter? [118:36] I've been waiting here for 3 hours. [118:38] Uh [118:39] you just because you're a celebrity you [118:40] think you can just keep me waiting? Not [118:42] cool. Nobody says that to them. And [118:44] somebody should say that to them. But uh [118:46] They should say to themselves. [118:47] They should say it to themselves. That [118:48] would be ideal. [118:50] And then some of them have the [118:51] self-awareness to know they're getting [118:52] away with it. That's even worse, cuz [118:53] then they're doing it on purpose. At [118:54] least blindness, I think, you know, they [118:55] can at least hide behind ignorance. [118:58] But, uh [119:00] Yeah, I mean, friendship takes effort. [119:02] Yeah, I there there'll be a lot of [119:03] people listening now, I know, that [119:05] understand I think they'll resonate with [119:06] what I'm saying, which is I'll meet [119:08] someone, I'll be like, we could be [119:10] really good friends. I see so much in [119:11] us. I love what you stand for. We We [119:13] have so much in common. And then, it [119:15] drifts because neither party have the [119:18] tools or the skill of like what to do [119:21] then. [119:21] We also live in a strange world where [119:23] I've met people where I have all of [119:25] that, and I follow up like immediately. [119:27] I'm like, "Hey, I had such a good time. [119:28] Let's make a plan." And they're like, [119:29] "What? Huh? What?" Or I call as opposed [119:31] to like texting. And people are like, [119:33] "What? Why are you calling?" I'm like, [119:34] "Well, we had we had a nice time. I [119:35] thought we maybe talk." [119:38] You know? And I think we live in a [119:39] strange world where people put it out [119:41] there, but they don't really want it. [119:43] Looping us right back to the beginning [119:44] of this conversation. As you said that [119:46] about the call, that made me think again [119:48] about how there's going to become a [119:50] premium on human. [119:52] Because calling is so archaic to me that [119:54] when someone does it, it's like a treat [119:57] now. And I was thinking what's what's [119:58] taking that even further would be [120:00] writing someone a letter. [120:01] Mhm. [120:01] If someone Do you know who wrote me a [120:03] letter? Evan from Snapchat came on the [120:04] podcast, the founder and CEO of [120:06] Snapchat. And then, by the time I'd got [120:07] back to London, there was a letter on my [120:09] desk from Evan. And it just said, "Had a [120:11] great conversation with you. Um thank [120:13] you for being so thoughtful with the [120:14] questions. Thank you for the research. [120:16] Here's my number. Would love to stay in [120:17] touch." And it blew me away. [120:19] AI wrote that. [120:22] No, it was with a pen. [120:23] he had he had an auto pen. He just did [120:24] it. [120:26] It was with a pen. Had a signature and [120:27] his phone number. And I thought, that is [120:28] so beautiful. [120:30] It's classic and classy. [120:32] There's a premium on being human. [120:34] Simon, thank you so much. Thank you for [120:36] being so generous with your time always. [120:37] Always. I always have fun with you. [120:38] my show. You're um you always move me [120:40] forward in my thinking in such profound [120:41] and unexpected always unexpected way [120:43] that I'll tremendous I'll value [120:44] tremendously for a very very long time. [120:46] In our friendship. I I'm going to text [120:48] back even faster. I'm you know, we need [120:50] to go on more dates. [120:51] Um and I look forward to that and I look [120:52] forward to our next date in London, [120:53] which I know is coming up sometime soon. [120:54] Yeah, we'll go out for sure. It'll be [120:56] fun. [120:56] We have a closing tradition which I [120:57] nearly forgot. [120:58] I do know the tradition. [120:59] Which is the last guest leaves a [121:00] question for the next guest. [121:01] Yes, what's my question? [121:02] Mhm. What are you doing in your life [121:04] to mentor someone coming up behind you? [121:08] And then, who is a person that you'd [121:10] like to mentor, teach, or coach that [121:13] needs your voice the most? [121:16] I It's [121:18] It's my team is everything right now. [121:20] Like I want to give everything I've [121:21] learned to my team. I want the folks on [121:23] my team to benefit from all the mistakes [121:26] I've made. [121:27] And one of the joys of [121:29] being in founder mode when it's not [121:32] the [121:33] the actual beginning [121:35] is I have way more in my skill and [121:38] knowledge bucket that I want to pour [121:40] out. And so, I One of the reasons I'm [121:43] having so much fun in founder mode [121:45] is because I want to give away [121:48] everything that I've learned so that my [121:49] team can be stronger and stronger and [121:51] better and better. [121:53] Cuz I want to leave something that can [121:54] survive me that, you know, if [121:57] if I you know, the whole school bus [121:58] test, you know, if the founder gets hit [122:00] by a bus, will the company continue or [122:01] will it will it not? [122:03] And I really want to build something [122:05] where they want to build it without me. [122:07] Feels like there's been a change here. [122:09] Mhm. What was the catalyst? [122:11] For the past couple years, I've been [122:12] just trying out a lot of different [122:13] things to find to to find uh a level of [122:17] excitement and energy that I think I'd [122:18] lost for a little bit and I found it. [122:20] Like this has been like the founder mode [122:22] my team are so great and they so want to [122:26] they so want to push boundaries and all [122:28] I want to do is take take the reins off, [122:30] like take the leash off, like I want [122:32] them to experiment. I want them to try [122:33] things. And I'm trying to create an [122:34] environment where they're creative, they [122:36] do things, half of them will fail. I [122:38] don't care. Let's try again. And I I [122:41] just love being around all the creative [122:43] ideas that they're coming up with. [122:45] My team asked you to bring something [122:46] that meant a lot to you, and you brought [122:48] me this, and I don't know what's in this [122:49] box. [122:55] Ooh. [122:58] Two medallions, medals? [123:01] Those are military challenge coins. [123:03] Um I brought the one the round one just [123:05] to show you what the traditional ones [123:06] look like. [123:07] Um uh [123:09] this is the one I care about. I mean, I [123:10] care about them both, but this is the [123:11] one I brought. So, [123:13] these are [123:14] uh [123:15] only generals or commanders will give [123:16] these out. They're hard to get. You get [123:18] them when you do something of service. [123:21] It's it's less formal than a medal. They [123:23] can give it out to whomever they want, [123:25] and it's their way of saying thank you. [123:27] And the challenge coins that I've been [123:28] given, I'm very very proud of it because [123:30] I feel like I earned them. [123:31] And the thing that I love is when they [123:32] give them to you, they don't just hand [123:33] it to you. [123:35] They put it in their hand like this, and [123:36] they shake your hand. [123:38] Go on. [123:40] And that's how they give them to you. [123:41] And they say, "Thank you, Simon, so much [123:43] for coming here and helping us out." And [123:45] that's how they give me the coin. [123:47] The reason why this one means a lot to [123:48] me [123:49] is because I did some work with the with [123:52] Air Force Top Gun. It's called the [123:54] Weapons School, but it's Air Force Top [123:55] Gun. [123:56] And this is their coin, and this is [123:57] their patch. That's And um I did some [124:00] work with them to help them get to the [124:01] core of their why, what their true value [124:03] was. [124:04] Just to make sure that their culture [124:05] stays clear and good for a long time. [124:07] And we came up with three words, three [124:09] actions that everybody who goes through [124:11] Air Force Top Gun is required to do, [124:13] which is build, teach, lead. [124:15] Which is the idea that you build a skill [124:17] set. [124:18] You teach that skill set to other [124:20] people. [124:21] And then you build leaders, and you [124:22] lead, right? This whole idea that you [124:24] have you have a responsibility to build, [124:26] to teach, and to lead. Accumulate and [124:28] give, and serve. [124:30] And the thing that is so powerful is the [124:32] commandant of the Weapons School, after [124:34] we he the work, he took those words, and [124:36] he put them on the coin. [124:38] Oh, really? [124:38] And they exist on the coin and they have [124:40] been on there for years since. [124:42] And I am so proud to have given [124:44] something that has longevity, that is [124:46] literally on the coin. [124:49] Build, teach, lead. [124:52] Yeah, that is such a beautiful mantra [124:53] for life. [124:54] Yeah. And they're they're wonderful [124:56] people who go there. And uh what an [124:59] honor that work that I did ended up on a [125:01] coin. [125:03] And so they gave me the coin out of [125:04] gratitude [125:06] for the work that I did and it had my [125:07] words on it, so it's not my words, it's [125:09] their words. I just helped distill them. [125:11] It's who they are when they're at their [125:12] natural best. I just helped them put it [125:15] uh codify it. [125:17] Simon, thank you. [125:17] Thanks. [125:18] Always love our conversations and long [125:20] may they continue. [125:20] Likewise. [125:24] This has always blown my mind a little [125:25] bit. 53% of you that listen to this show [125:28] regularly haven't yet subscribed to this [125:30] show. So, could I ask you for a favor? [125:32] If you like this show and you like what [125:33] we do here and you want to support us, [125:35] the free simple way that you can do just [125:36] that is by hitting the subscribe button. [125:38] And my commitment to you is if you do [125:40] that, then I'll do everything in my [125:41] power, me and my team, to make sure that [125:43] this show is better for you every single [125:45] week. We'll listen to your feedback, [125:47] we'll find the guest that you want me to [125:48] speak to, and we'll continue to do what [125:50] we do. Thank you so much.