Buddhist Monk Thubten Mandates Daily Meditation to Counter Digital Stress

佛教僧侣Thubten倡导每日冥想以应对数字压力 每日十分钟冥想即可改变大脑结构，打破思维成瘾并调节压力反应，无需前往寺院隐修。 Gelong Thubten分享了他从童年创伤、职业倦怠及重度抑郁，到出家修行三十余年的心路历程。他探讨了西方文化对目标追求的执念与数字过载如何加剧心理健康困境，并针对冥想运作机制、自我关怀及情绪韧性提供了实用指导。Thubten澄清了有关正念的常见误解，指出察觉思维走神——而非强行停止思绪——才是训练大脑的核心机制。结合自身在经历悲伤、宽恕与闭关生活中的体会，他阐明了转变自身与内在痛苦的关系如何带来真正的平静。 对寻找特定人生目标的执念往往是传统社会结构式微的副产物，而在佛教视角下，对外部目标的焦躁追逐是一种不断滋生焦虑的无休止渴望循环。 (3:53) 多巴胺水平在达成目标之前就会急剧下降，这意味着实现里程碑时体会到的愉悦感，只不过是摆脱渴望之苦所带来的短暂解脱。 (6:30) 冥想普遍被根本性地误解为清空思绪；其实质在于觉察到心神何时走散，并温和地将注意力重新拉回到呼吸上。 (28:58) 冥想练习相当于大脑的健身房，能重塑神经通路，使个体能够自主产生内在的平静，而不是被动地对外部压力源作出反应。 (34:18) 正念在职场环境中不会让人变得消极被动，也不会削弱进取心；相反，它能在高绩效环境中提升专注度、思维清晰度以及情绪韧性。 (40:14)

Buddhist monk Gelong Thubten argues that modern emotional suffering is driven by an unexamined addiction to external validation and thought loops, which cannot be cured by material comfort or distraction. Instead, he contends that lasting mental resilience requires training attention directly on internal discomfort and cultivating self-compassion through practical, stripped-down meditation. The Trap of Modern Craving and Material Comfort (6:30) Modern society pairs historically unprecedented material comfort with rising emotional distress, illustrated by declining happiness rankings—the United States fell to 24th place and the United Kingdom to 23rd by 2025—alongside decades-high suicide rates. Thubten argues that the erosion of traditional religious frameworks has fueled an anxious obsession with discovering personal purpose, which frequently masks an insatiable wanting mind chasing future milestones. Neurochemically, dopamine surges during the pursuit of a goal but plummets sharply right before attainment. Thubten explains that the pleasure experienced upon acquiring an object or achieving a goal is not generated by the item itself, but is merely the temporary relief from the pain of wanting. When individuals rely on external conditions to feel whole, they surrender their agency and remain reactive victims of circumstance rather than internal generators of their own well-being. Reframing Meditation Beyond Clearing the Mind (34:18) A primary barrier for beginners is the widespread misconception that meditation requires clearing the mind of thoughts, an effort Thubten compares to forcing an energetic child to sit rigidly still in a high chair. In practice, the mechanics of breath meditation rely on the inevitable occurrence of mind-wandering. When attention drifts to mundane tasks or anxieties, noticing that distraction is the essential moment of waking up. Gently returning attention to the breath trains self-compassion and builds mental strength, breaking the mind's automatic addiction to its narrative. Thubten dismisses commercialized spiritual paraphernalia—such as singing bowls, special cushions, and incense—as unnecessary distractions, advocating instead for an unadorned 10-minute morning practice to counter waking cortisol spikes. He notes that observable structural changes appear on brain scans after four days of consistent 10-minute sessions. Addressing corporate skepticism that mindfulness induces passivity, he argues that meditation sharpens focus under pressure, citing practitioners such as Steve Jobs, Ray Dalio, and Marc Benioff. Transforming Trauma by Dropping the Narrative (51:05) Thubten entered monastic life following a severe physical and mental breakdown at age 21, rooted in adolescent sexual abuse, family disruption, and chronic depression that caused his expulsion from Oxford University. Even twelve years into monastic life, entering an isolated four-year retreat triggered panic attacks that drove him to scale the monastery wall in a bid to escape his mind. Realizing geographic flight was impossible, he returned to isolation and altered his approach by turning emotional pain into the primary object of meditation. Rather than analyzing past trauma through endless internal narratives, Thubten advises dropping the cognitive story and focusing strictly on the raw physical sensations in the body, such as chest tightness or burning grief. While resisting pain triggers stress hormones, meeting sensations with gentle, non-judgmental awareness alters the physiological response. Thubten tested this approach following the 2013 murder of his teacher Choje Akong Rinpoche, navigating public media responsibilities and acute personal grief by directing love into his physical anguish. Forgiveness, Compost, and Daily Micro-Mindfulness (72:32) Addressing interpersonal grievances, Thubten invokes the Buddhist teaching comparing a grudge to holding a burning coal, which burns only the person carrying it. Forgiveness does not excuse harmful behavior or signify weakness; it is an internal act of liberation. Citing his teacher's analogy of suffering as compost, Thubten suggests that painful experiences can be repurposed to nurture wisdom. Meditatively viewing situations from the perspective of an offender helps practitioners recognize that harmful actions typically arise from unmanaged inner confusion rather than personal malice. Beyond formal sitting, Thubten recommends integrating micro-moments of mindfulness into routine daily friction, such as waiting in airport queues or sitting in traffic. Pausing to relax the shoulders and notice physical sensations creates a critical gap between impulse and automatic reaction. He warns practitioners against acting like meditation junkies who evaluate sessions as good or bad based on immediate feelings of bliss, emphasizing that relinquishing quality control allows practice to become a sustainable, lifelong discipline. While acknowledging that maintaining consistent practice is difficult amid digital hyper-connectivity and fear-driven media, Thubten maintains that mindfulness addresses the internal projector of experience rather than external projections. Progress is defined not by reaching permanent serenity or eliminating stress, but by dismantling harsh self-criticism and treating one's unresolved difficulties with persistent gentleness.

藏传佛教僧人Gelong Thubten在访谈中指出，现代人普遍面临的焦虑、自责与精神空虚源于对外部欲望与思维叙事的成瘾；真正的禅修并非追求排空大脑或即刻的极乐，而是通过将觉知锚定在当下与身体感受上，重塑大脑对痛苦与压力的反应机制。 物质充裕与意义危机：多巴胺陷阱与欲望循环 (3:53) Thubten与主持人Steven Bartlett指出，现代社会物质条件达到历史高位，但英美等国的自杀率攀升，全球幸福感排名持续下滑（美国在2011至2025年间从第11名跌至第24名，英国跌至第23名）。传统宗教框架瓦解后，人们陷入对“人生意义”与外部成就的执着。神经化学机制显示，多巴胺驱动对目标的渴望，但在达成前夕骤降；获得物品带来的短暂愉悦，本质上只是“渴求之痛的暂时解除”，进而促使大脑迅速抓取下一个目标，形成永无止境的空虚循环。 此外，数字信息爆炸与基于恐惧驱动的商业营销不断削弱个体的安全感，让人们认定当下存在缺陷、幸福只存在于未来的假想状态。Thubten认为，将自我幸福交由外在环境摆布会让人沦为被动的受害者；而禅修的价值在于打破“追逐—缓解—再匮乏”的循环，认识到内心原本就具备不依赖外部条件的自主平静。 重构禅修定义：告别清空大脑与精神道具 Thubten批评了流行文化中的“精神杂物”（如颂钵、香氛等道具）以及将禅修视为“放空大脑”的误区。他以自身早年经历为例说明，强行压制思绪只会激化内心的对抗与批判，甚至演变成把禅修当成索取快感的“上瘾药”。真正的基础呼吸禅修核心在于建立三步闭环：觉知呼吸、察觉走神、温和地拉回注意力。每一次意识到走神并主动回归，就是打破思维叙事自动运行的“心智健身”，因此走神绝非失败，反而是训练自我慈悲与专注的必要素材。 针对商业领域对冥想导致“丧失进取心”的误解，Thubten援引Steve Jobs、Ray Dalio及Marc Benioff等知名企业家的实践指出，正念不会让人变得消极迟钝，而是通过在刺激与反应之间拉开间隙，提升压力下的清晰决断力。他建议普通人摒弃复杂的宗教仪式，每天清晨在查看手机前进行10分钟简单的呼吸观察，以抑制清晨皮质醇峰值，并指出脑部扫描显示连续4天练习即可观察到神经结构的积极变化。 放下故事面对身体：在痛苦中完成自我接纳 (51:05) 在经历青年时期的心理创伤、牛津大学退学以及严重健康崩溃后，Thubten进入苏格兰桑耶林寺（Samye Ling）出家。然而在后来的长达4年的闭关期间，他因无法承受恐慌与痛苦一度翻越修道院围墙逃跑。这一危机促使他彻底扭转修习方法：不再试图通过大脑逻辑剖析童年创伤的故事叙事，而是“放下故事，直面躯体感受”。他意识到痛苦在生理上往往表现为胸口绞痛、灼热或紧绷，强行抗拒只会刺激皮质醇分泌并加剧痛苦。 回归闭关后，Thubten将身体疼痛本身作为禅修的对象，像对待“受惊的兔子或折翼的小鸟”一样以慈悲包裹痛苦，使紧绷的神经放松并促进内啡肽释放。在2013年其导师Choje Akong Rinpoche于成都遇害后，他在极度悲痛与愤怒中实践这一方法，将爱与关怀直接投向胸腔如火灼烧的物理痛感中。他强调，真正的自我和解不是追求完美无瑕，而是学会“接纳自己处于混乱状态”，彻底终止“你很恶心、你是失败者”等严苛的内在自我审判。 微习惯与宽恕：在现代恐惧洪流中重获掌控 (72:32) 面对现代社会中智能手机、数字广告与算法煽动的恐惧，Thubten主张将禅修拆解为融入日常的“微瞬间”（micro-moments）。在机场排队、遭遇交通拥堵或与他人发生摩擦时，只需放下紧绷的肩膀、感知双脚踩在地面上的触觉，就能打破自动化的应激反应模式，在冲动与行动之间创造出理性的抉择空间。这种碎片化的专注训练，能让个体在不逃避现实生活的前提下持续构筑心理韧性。 针对怨恨与宽恕，Thubten引用佛教比喻指出，紧抓怨恨如同“手握滚烫的火炭”，真正被灼伤的只有自己；怀恨在心实际上是让加害者在精神上持续支配受害者。宽恕并非软弱或纵容罪行，而是一场旨在解放自我的主动夺权。他指出，如同园丁将腐烂蔬菜转化为滋养土壤的肥料（compost），生活中的创伤与痛苦也可以通过换位思考和观照内心，被转化为培育慈悲与内在稳定的养分。 访谈表明，现代人的心理困境核心不在于缺乏外部资源或知识，而在于难以付诸行动并直面内心的寂静。佛教在此被阐释为一套不依赖神明与信条的觉知科学，但如何让习惯了数字刺激与即时满足的现代大众克服对安静的本能恐惧、建立长期的日常修习，仍是该理论在现实落地过程中需要个体持续跨越的心理门槛。

## Background 本期内容由知名商业播客《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2025 年 6 月 23 日发布在 YouTube 平台上。视频特邀英国极具影响力的藏传佛教僧人兼畅销书作家 Gelong Thubten 展开深度对谈，围绕现代人在科技轰炸与消费主义下陷入的焦虑、抑郁与精神内耗，揭示未解创伤对心智的控制机制，并系统拆解冥想的本质与破局之道。 ## TL;DR 节目中，Thubten 结合自己早年遭遇虐待、退学崩溃、出家闭关甚至险些翻墙脱逃的真实创伤历程，犀利解构了现代人因执迷“向外索求”与多巴胺追逐而陷入的匮乏陷阱。他破除了“冥想必须清空大脑”的大众迷思，强调走神与杂念恰恰是锻炼心智力量的契机，引导听众将痛苦和负面念头本身作为觉察对象，学会从“天空”的观察者视角审视“云朵”般的烦恼。对话还深入剖析了真正的宽恕、心智对商业高绩效的赋能、科技恐惧文化的应对策略，并提供了无需任何“灵性垃圾”道具的晨间 10 分钟落地实操指南。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在深刻的自省、禅意与商业理性的交融中展开，气氛既充满直击灵魂的坦诚与厚重感，又不乏风趣幽默的化解。Thubten 毫无高高在上的说教姿态，而是以平静温和、充满慈悲的语调剖开自己曾经的破碎与“一团糟”，Steven 的提问则敏锐聚焦于都市精英的现实痛点与知行鸿沟。从最初探讨现代人普遍的虚无与恐慌，到中段直面生死惨剧与创伤烈火时的肃穆，再到最后现场呼吸引导与“杂念越多越好”的释然，整个听觉体验宛如一场深度的精神洗礼，带给人沉静而坚定的内在托举感。 ## Bulletin - [05:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=326s) 现代社会虽建立起物质高度舒适的文明，但美英等国幸福感大幅下滑、自杀率创新高，暴露出消费主义与多巴胺追逐机制所制造的精神匮乏与心理健康危机。 - [01:27:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5255s) 藏传佛教僧人 Gelong Thubten 指出，冥想的核心不是“清空大脑”，而是在觉察走神后温和拉回注意力；每次拉回如同心智健身，脑成像证实仅需连续 4 天、每天 10 分钟即可促成神经重塑。 - [51:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3060s) 面对深度创伤与哀伤，关键在于“放下思维叙事，直面身体感受”，将体内剧痛直接作为冥想对象并倾注慈爱，促使神经系统由应激模式转入自我接纳。 - [01:12:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4352s) 宽恕不是对伤害者的妥协或开脱，而是放下自己紧握的“滚烫热炭”，从而瓦解自身怨恨与受害者心态，实现内在心智解绑。 ## Key takeaways - [08:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=492s) 消费主义文化持续向大众灌输匮乏感，迫使人们陷入由多巴胺驱动的永恒追逐，然而真正的满足感并非来自占有外物，而是源于“渴望本身的止息”。 - [03:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=183s) 传统宗教退场后，极度个人主义催生了对“人生使命”的病态执念；许多人误以为幸福完全由外部环境赋予，从而沦为生活的被动受害者。 - [16:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1006s) 习惯性压抑痛苦与负面情绪会产生“心理火山效应”，最终演化为躯体化崩溃以及极具破坏性的自我攻击声音（“魔鬼之声”）。 - [24:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1455s) 佛教中的独身与戒律并非惩罚或压抑，而是提供了一个直面欲望的心理实验室，让人看清所有深层成瘾本质上都是对自身念头的成瘾。 - [26:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1581s) 佛教在本质上更贴近一门“觉知的科学”与心智医学，其世界观认为天堂与地狱皆为心智投射，万法唯心，并不存在需要盲从的外在造物主。 - [33:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=2006s) 破除对冥想的根本误区：冥想不是强行清空大脑杂念，走神不是失败，从念头中“醒来”并将注意力带回呼吸本身正是锻炼心智肌肉的基石。 - [47:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=2875s) 建立“天空与云朵”的观察者视角：觉察愤怒与痛苦的意识本身并不处于愤怒之中，看透事物的非实体性与空性，才能瓦解僵化的受害者叙事。 - [42:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=2536s) 顶尖商业领袖推崇禅修并非追求麻木昏睡，而是借助极致专注与思维清晰度“做自己心智的 CEO”，在极端压力下保持精准判断与利他格局。 - [58:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3498s) 在面对深层心理创伤或抑郁时，过度进行理性自我分析与溯源叙事往往适得其反；唯有将注意力锚定在身体的纯粹痛感上并加以接纳，才能实现神经解脱。 - [01:09:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4176s) 在遭遇导师遇害等重大丧亲悲痛时，通过身体直面如烈火焚烧般的痛楚，并像对待受伤鸟雀般倾注慈悲，能将苦难转化为培育坚韧心智的“堆肥”。 - [01:12:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4352s) 执守怨恨犹如赤手紧握滚烫热炭，灼伤的唯有自己；原谅旨在将自我与毒性情绪解绑，并用 360 度全景视角体认到伤害往往源自施害者的失控与困惑。 - [01:26:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5185s) 现代数字媒体、商业与政治构建了普遍的“恐惧文化”；修行者可通过在排队、堵车等日常场景中插入“微正念”，拉开冲动与行动之间的空隙，化被动反应为主动回应。 - [01:27:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5255s) 冥想无需依赖颂钵、熏香等“灵性噱头”，建议从清晨 10 分钟呼吸练习入手，并在开始时确立自利利他的慈悲发心以平抑晨间皮质醇峰值。 - [01:33:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5603s) 初学者极易陷入“精神瘾君子”心态，急于在打坐中索取即时快感或极乐；对待冥想必须彻底放弃价值评判与品控，允许一切状态自然呈现。 - [01:42:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=6152s) 弥合知与行的巨大鸿沟不能依靠外在道德义务的强迫，而需深刻体认到冥想向内平息内耗正是通往人类所渴望的真正自由与快乐的根本捷径。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=0s) 开篇引言：翻越闭关高墙的僧人与心智的牢笼 现代人普遍沦为了自身心智的囚徒。社会文化不断向个体灌输一种匮乏感——你总觉得“自己还不够好”，生命中“始终缺少了某些关键拼图”，并坚信只有在未来达成某些特定条件或经历特定境遇时，自己才能获得幸福。这种向外攀附的心态，让人彻底沦为生活的被动接收者。 英国知名藏传佛教僧人 Gelong Thubten 曾有过长达数年的严酷闭关修行，其中最长的一次完全与世隔绝长达四年整。在漫长无边的静默中，过往深埋的痛苦记忆如潮水般涌现，堆积成令人窒息的严重抑郁、焦虑与精神剧痛。由于十四岁时遭受的创伤反扑，他在痛苦濒临极限时甚至翻越了闭关中心的围墙试图逃跑。三十年来，他指导过无数好莱坞名流、企业 CEO 与跨国公司高管应对高压、成瘾与职业倦怠，而他自己的转变恰恰源于那个彻底跌入谷底的时刻。他曾竭尽全力想要推开那些令人作呕、充满耻辱感的痛苦，但这只会让痛苦愈演愈烈；事实证明，就算逃到世界尽头，心魔依然会随时将人绊倒。他最终选择重返闭关房，直面创伤并掌握调伏心智的方法。对于大众而言，市面上充斥着大量虚有其表的“廉价灵性噱头”（spiritual tat），许多人因误解而在初次接触时对冥想产生排斥；但剥离这些外壳，冥想的核心仅在于通过三个关键练习来打破负面思维的掌控，这种转变甚至能通过脑部扫描观察到切实的大脑生理结构改变。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 欲望追逐与匮乏感恶性循环图 accDescr: 展示消费主义文化与多巴胺机制如何制造永无止境的追逐，以及冥想如何打破这一循环。 subgraph External["外部诱导"] A["信息轰炸与消费文化"] --> B["灌输匮乏感：总觉得缺少什么"] end subgraph MindCycle["心理与生理循环"] B --> C["启动追逐（多巴胺驱动）"] C --> D["达成目标前夕：多巴胺骤降"] D --> E["短暂获得解脱（渴望暂时消除）"] E --> F["空虚感与更强烈的匮乏感反扑"] F --> C end subgraph Meditation["冥想的觉察突破"] G["向内觉察心智"] -.->|认清所求非外物| H["体悟'渴望的止息'与内在自由"] end E -.-> G ``` ### [01:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=106s) 科技轰炸下的西方世界：深埋于手机中的精神危机 当被问及为何他的理念在当下比以往任何时代都更为迫切时，Thubten 指出，现代科技驱动的生活节奏正在呈指数级加速，人们比以往任何时刻都更需要冥想来安顿心神；然而，伴随冥想的普及，大量认知误区也随之蔓延，亟需正本清源。 审视当下的西方现代社会，最刺眼的景象莫过于所有人都在低头深埋于智能手机之中。人类与信息的交互模式发生了不可逆的剧变：每个人每天都遭受着信息洪流的狂轰滥炸与无孔不入的侵蚀，而这些信息底层无不流淌着极具说服力与控制欲的暗示。这种持续的信息浸泡直接摧毁了公众的心理防线，导致个体的压力水平飙升、自信心坍塌。现代媒介无时无刻不在明示或暗示大众：“你是有缺陷的，你拥有得还远远不够；只要你买下这个、得到那个，你才能算得上体面；只有达成某种成就，你才配拥有快乐。”这种机制悄然剥夺了人类的内在力量，使人们对生活彻底丧失掌控感。 ### [03:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=183s) 宗教解体后的“使命”焦虑与向外索求的困局 关于现代人对“人生使命（Purpose）”的普遍焦虑，Thubten 从历史与信仰演变的角度给出了深刻剖析。传统宗教在人类历史长河中长期占据生活与思想的中心舞台，为每个人界定了自身在宇宙秩序中的具体坐标。在那个时代，“我的人生目的是什么”从未成为一个普遍性的精神危机，因为个体的存在意义已在信仰框架中被清晰赋予。 随着西方步入后宗教文化时代，重心完全倒向了极致的个人主义。个体自由固然带来了积极一面，但随之而来的副产物是对“个人使命”的病态执念。“寻找使命”这一词汇本身就深深植根于“我想要（wanting）”的索求逻辑之中。在佛教心理学中，这种“索求之心（wanting mind）”是永远无法被填平的无底洞——你索求得越多，未来滋生的欲望就越庞大。现代人在物质世界中疲于奔命地寻找目的，往往是得到了一样东西，立刻又渴望另一样，陷入无休止的向外抓取。 Thubten 澄清，追求人生使命本身并非过错，真正的误区在于人们根深蒂固地迷信“幸福与痛苦完全源于外部世界”。人们总是预设：“如果我得到了某种地位或物质，我就会幸福；如果发生某种不幸，我就会痛苦不堪。”这种因果倒错让人沦为“生活的受害者”，每天都在惶恐不安地揣测生活下一次会怎样打击自己、自己又该如何艰难招架。而禅修所传达的核心真谛在于：通过学会接纳与驾驭自己的心智，你不再需要向外乞求，你自己就是意义的本源，是你自身生命体验的真正创造者。 ### [05:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=326s) 史上最舒适的时代，为何幸福感与自杀率创下历史新低？ 对话转向了西方世界令人触目惊心的心理健康数据： - **全球幸福感排名滑坡**：美国在2011年曾位列全球最幸福国家第11位，而到了2025年已惨跌至第24位；英国同样跌落至第23位，刷新了多年来的最低纪录。 - **自杀率飙升**：美英两国的自杀数据尤为惊人，英国的自杀率更是攀升到了数十年来的历史最高峰。 面对这些严峻事实，Thubten 直指现代文明的核心悖论：人类建立起了有史以来在物质维度最为舒适、丰裕的文明，但在情感与精神维度，现代人却陷入了前所未有的痛苦与不适之中（"materially more comfortable than ever and yet emotionally more uncomfortable"）。这种物质极度丰富与内心极度荒芜的割裂，完全是由消费主义对“欲望机制”的操纵所导致的。 为了维持消费主义经济飞轮的运转，系统必须不间断地向公众灌输匮乏感与不安全感，让人误以为下一款产品、下一次感官刺激就能带来终极解脱。Thubten 强调，“追寻幸福”本身往往正是痛苦的根源，因为“追寻”本身会固化为一种心理惯性，带来的是永无止境的追逐循环。大众虽然偶尔能得到心仪之物，但转瞬之间又会滋生新的渴望；索求越多，匮乏感便越强烈，最终坐拥丰厚的物质财富，内心却只剩下无尽的空虚。当人们费尽心机登顶目标却依然感到荒凉时，精神危机便彻底爆发。 ### [08:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=492s) 追逐的陷阱：多巴胺循环与“渴望的平息” 针对绝大多数人所信奉的“人生的意义在于追逐目标的过程（the pursuit of something），而非最终结果”，Thubten 从神经生物学机制与心智机能作出了犀利的剖析。“追逐（pursuit）”这一状态在生理层面上完全是由神经递质多巴胺（dopamine）所主导的。多巴胺神经机制极其耐人寻味的一点在于：**多巴胺的分泌峰值恰恰会在你真正获得渴望之物的前一刻骤降**（"it falls away just before you get what you want"）。 这意味着，追逐猎物时的神经兴奋感永远远远胜过实际占有的体验。人类被生化机制死死锁在了一场永不停歇的追猎游戏中： - **匮乏驱动**：不断追问下一个目标在哪里、自己何时才能拿下。 - **占有即贬值**：由于获得之物永远无法兑现追逐期所幻想的满足感，失望与空虚便如期而至。 - **解脱的真相**：Thubten 以“吃三明治”作生动比喻——饥饿时吃下三明治，人们感受到的快感实际上并不是三明治本身所具有的魔力，而是“饥饿感（匮乏感）的瞬间平息”。同样，当你历经艰辛得到梦寐以求的东西时，那一刻席卷全身的所谓幸福，本质上是一种如释重负的解脱感（relief），是因为那种焦躁不安、患得患失的索求之苦暂时消退了。 人类真正在苦苦寻觅的终极目标，并非外在追逐所附带的名利光环，而是**渴望本身的彻底止息（absence of wanting）**。那种摆脱欲望奴役的自在与自由，原本就完整地存在于每一个人的内在心智之中，而冥想正是唤醒这一内在自足状态的钥匙。 ### [10:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=618s) 摆脱欲望的循环：重新平衡物质与心灵 当我们终于得到了梦寐以求的东西时，所体验到的快乐本质上并非来自物品本身，而是一种“摆脱渴望的暂时自由”（freedom from wanting）。然而，现代人面临的真正困境在于，这种解脱极为短暂，大家很快便陷入下一个渴望的循环，不断追逐下一件物品或下一个成就。Gelong Thubten 澄清说，他并非提倡人人都抛下事业与生活，跑到山顶上去枯坐冥想；社会的问题在于人们将绝大部分注意力过度倾斜在物质层面，如果能将一部分关注度分给自己的心智，学会向内观照，我们才能真正实现自我解放。 ### [10:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=652s) 极度痛苦中的出家抉择：纽约布鲁克林的致命崩溃 面对主持人 Steven Bartlett 询问这段智慧是否来自刻骨铭心的经历，Thubten 坦白承认，自己走入寺院绝非出于浪漫的“精神追寻”，也没有带着一颗渴望寻找终极真理的纯净之心，而是因为在现实生活中遭遇了极度痛苦与彻底破碎。当时的他深陷对世俗野心的疯狂追逐中，脑子里充斥着自责、抑郁与焦虑。那时他穿梭于伦敦与纽约之间，由于母亲是演员，他也追随母亲的步伐努力成为一名演员，结果却陷入了极度危险的派对浪荡生活，日夜透支身体与精力。 终于在 21 岁那年，住在纽约布鲁克林公寓的 Thubten 迎来了极端而戏剧性的身心崩溃（burnout）。某天早晨醒来，他感觉自己突发心脏病。当时他甚至没有医疗保险，只能辗转找到一家廉价的心电图诊所，检查结果显示他的心脏出现了严重病症。医生质问他到底对自己做了什么，他被迫紧急停下一切。随后的几个月里他病重不起，不得不反思自己的整个人生，并深刻意识到这场突如其来的大病绝非偶然，它不仅是极端不健康生活习惯的症状，更是自己与内在心智严重病态关系的最终爆发。 ### [13:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=821s) 创伤的暗流：年少虐待与家庭解体 谈及这种病态心智关系的根源，Steven 提到了 Thubten 过往访谈中提及的童年经历。Thubten 坦诚回忆了十几岁时的复杂过往： - **双面人生**：他在 13、14 岁左右开始与年龄大得多的群体混在一起。白天他在学校里是个安静勤奋的学生，课外则成了一支摇滚乐队的成员；到了 14 岁，他甚至谎称自己已经 21 岁，在伦敦各处的红酒吧里做爵士钢琴伴奏。 - **遭受虐待**：在与年长者的交往中，关系逐渐变味，他遭到了同乐队成员的性虐待。当时年轻的他以为自己能掌控局面，事后回看才发现这些创伤给灵魂留下了深刻烙印，让他开始对自己和他人充满极度的恐惧与戒备。 - **家庭破裂**：17 岁那年，平日极为慈爱的父母突然破裂，父亲带走了母亲的一位女性好友并私奔，给整个家庭带来了毁灭性冲击。 - **牛津大学的退学经历**：尽管 Thubten 凭才智考入了久负盛名的牛津大学（Oxford University），但他很快在校内彻底崩溃陷入重度抑郁，最终甚至被学校勒令退学（expelled）。母亲当时还半开玩笑地安慰他，说被牛津开除的人就像拜伦勋爵（Lord Byron）或雪莱（Percy Bysshe Shelley）一样特立独行，但现实中他只是彻底丧失了正常生活的能力。 在外人看来，他登台演戏、光鲜亮丽；但在内心深处，他早已支离破碎，陷入无尽的逃避与自我麻醉。 ### [16:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1006s) 头脑中的“魔鬼之声”：压抑情绪引发的心灵火山 在演艺光环的掩盖下，Thubten 的脑中始终盘旋着一个极具攻击性的独白，他将其称为“魔鬼的声音”（devil voice）。这个声音日复一日地对他进行精神凌迟：“你真恶心，你一无是处，你是个彻头彻尾的失败者。”这个负面声音在日后闭关禅修的极度安静中被成倍放大，他花了巨大的精力在冥想中学会不再排斥它，而是将它接纳、整合并最终与之达成和解。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 负面内在心智的形成机制 accDescr: 展示未处理创伤通过压抑累积形成心理火山并最终爆发为自我厌恶之声的因果过程 subgraph Trauma["早年创伤积累"] A["未处理的虐待与家庭破裂"] --> B["逃避现实与放纵狂欢"] end subgraph Suppression["情绪抑制机制"] B --> C["习惯性压抑痛苦\n（瓶装情绪）"] C --> D["内在压力积聚\n（火山效应）"] end subgraph Outburst["病态症状显现"] D --> E["极端躯体化崩溃\n（21岁心脏骤停感）"] D --> F["激烈的自我厌恶独白\n（'魔鬼之声'）"] end ``` 当 Steven 问及这种摧毁性的声音究竟是来自环境还是天生时，Thubten 指出，这是多种因素交织的结果。在自己身上，最核心的诱因是“极度擅长压抑痛苦”——他习惯将所有难以面对的情绪死死往下踩，靠疯狂狂欢麻痹自我。被强行压抑的情感如同地底的岩浆，最终引发了“火山效应”，内在积蓄的巨大压力反噬为对自己极端的愤怒与批判，这种内化的怒火在外部环境的催化下彻底爆发。 ### [18:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1099s) 踏入三耶林寺：从原本的一年暂避到三十年归宿 在这场几乎要夺命的病痛中，Thubten 迎来了人生的转折点。他的发小兼儿时好友 Tara 见他病危，便将他护送回母亲所在的加州疗养，随后又全力将他带到了苏格兰的藏传佛教寺院——三耶林寺（Kagyu Samye Ling）。 - 当时 Thubten 虚弱到只要稍微挪动身体就会大汗淋漓，伴随着剧烈的心悸，在越洋飞机上他全程只能平躺，几乎全靠 Tara 支撑搀扶。 - 恰巧当时三耶林寺历史上首次对外开放“为期一年的短期出家”项目。Tara 提议两人一同前往，劝他说“这只是你生命中的一年而已，或许能彻底拯救你”。 - Thubten 当初完全是抱着治病疗伤、调整身心的临时心态去的，甚至一度打算把纽约的公寓转租出去，打算一年期满后就重返纽约继续演艺梦。 然而，这一去便改变了一生，曾经以为的“一年”最终变成了整整三十年的修行之路。面对 Steven 惊叹于这三十年背后常人难以企及的牺牲与付出，Thubten 却坦然微笑反驳：外界眼中的戒律与“牺牲”，在当时彻底碎裂的他看来，非但不是沉重的剥夺，反而是从无止境的欲望深渊中获得的“即时解脱”（immediate relief）。 ### [20:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1236s) 僧侣的戒律与独身生活：摆脱欲望的束缚 进入寺院后，图腾（Gelong Thubten）立下了多项誓愿。表面上看，成为僧人意味着必须放弃许多世俗事物，但图腾直言，自己放弃的实际上全都是那些曾经让他陷入病态的东西。除了不撒谎、不偷盗、不伤害他人等道德准则外，僧侣生活最核心的两大戒律是：戒绝一切麻醉品（包括酒精和毒品）以及修持独身（Celibacy，禁欲）。对他而言，放弃这些并非沉重的枷锁，反而像进入了一个康复中心（rehab），带来了一种如释重负的解脱感。而且他最初以为自己只会在寺院待一年，因此心理上并没有太大的负担。 很多人常以为僧人的生活必定十分孤独，但图腾的实际体验却恰恰相反。当所有人生活在一个完全排除了“性吸引力与化学反应”的团体中时，人与人之间的交往反而变得格外纯粹与深厚。他结识了许多志同道合、共同修行的同道，建立起真正发自内心、基于灵魂的友谊，因此完全没有体会到孤独感。对于主持人关于“为何性会成为一种干扰而被列入戒律”的疑问，图腾澄清道，佛教并不认为性是邪恶、错误或肮脏的，这里没有任何道德审判的意味；这纯粹取决于你将注意力与专注力投向何处。 独身的核心意义在于为极度专注的冥想修行创造无干扰的环境，以便未来能够更好地利益他人。更深层的是，独身提供了一个直面欲望的心理实验室。修行者不再立即顺从欲望去追逐满足，但同时也不能走入另一个极端——压抑欲望，因为压抑对身心健康极度有害。真正的修行是退后一步，像观察者一样去审视欲望的升起与消散，进而意识到“自己远不止于欲望本身”。图腾强调，独身适合特定性格和修行道路的人，并非所有佛教徒都必须出家禁欲，在西方庞大的佛教群体中，真正选择受戒独身的僧人也只是极少数。 ### [24:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1455s) 欲望背后的匮乏感与“内在执着” 主持人结合身边一位朋友的经历展开了讨论：该朋友在人际关系、职业以及生活意义感上陷入迷茫，同时长期受到强烈性欲的困扰，因而试图通过短期禁欲和戒除自慰来夺回人生的控制权。图腾指出，如果仅仅是硬性戒断欲望的对象，就像把自己关进笼子里咬牙硬撑，并不能真正解决问题。图腾常年在戒毒康复中心教授冥想，他发现戒除致病的毒品或物质只是第一步，更关键的问题在于：该如何安抚那颗对物质产生病态渴求的心？如何填补内心深处的那个巨大空洞？ ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 欲望与冥想转化的机制对比 accDescr: 流程图展示了面对欲望时硬性戒断与通过冥想觉察两种路径的不同后果。 subgraph S1["欲望的根源与硬性戒断"] A["内在匮乏感与无助"] --> B["产生欲望与执念"] B --> C["硬性强行压抑"] C --> D["内心空洞未愈 / 容易反弹"] end subgraph S2["冥想的觉察与转化路径"] B --> E["如实觉察念头"] E --> F["不跟随 / 不压抑"] F --> G["以慈悲与智慧填补内心"] end ``` 图腾解释说，人类一切欲望的表象之下，往往潜藏着一种深层的匮乏感、无力感，以及“我拥有的还不够、我缺少了什么”的错觉。若不通过冥想以慈悲与正念去填补这块空缺，硬性压抑只会加剧痛苦。他指出： - **真正的瘾头源于思维**：“我们所有人最深层的成瘾，其实是对自己念头的成瘾（addiction to our own thoughts）。”每当一个“想要”的念头冒出来，我们便毫无抵抗地扑上去，试图通过外物来缓解内心的焦虑。 - **重新理解“无执”（Non-attachment）**：佛教中常说的“无执/不执着”常被世人误解为冷漠、断绝友情或脱离尘世。其实它的真实含义，是避免让念头和情绪坐上我们人生的“驾驶座”，牵引着我们的生活走向失控。冥想的根本目的，正是转化这种对念头本身的内在执念。 ### [26:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1581s) 佛教的本质：一种关于心灵的科学与疗愈之道 主持人谈到自己过去一年阅读佛教书籍的心得，感觉佛教并不像传统意义上的宗教，反而像一剂自己迫切需要的“药物”。图腾非常赞同这种说法，他明确表示，在他看来佛教与其说是一种宗教，不如说是一门“深层的医学”或一门“科学”。面对主持人关于“是否有神、是否需要顶礼膜拜、死后是否会进天堂或地狱”的追问，图腾阐释了佛教的本质： - **无神论与觉醒之道**：佛教中没有任何需要盲目崇拜的造物主。历史上被称为“佛陀（Buddha）”的人生活在约2500年前的印度，其词根意义仅为“觉醒者（Awake）”。 - **词源层面的科学内涵**：“Buddhism（佛教）”带有现代西方后缀“-ism”，在梵文和藏文的原本语境中，它所对应的词汇实为“觉知的科学（science of awareness）”或“对觉醒的探究”，是一条探索心灵运作规律的科学发现之路。 - **天堂与地狱皆为心境**：在佛教的世界观里，天堂与地狱并非现实中客观存在的物理空间，而是不同的心灵状态。包括身边的桌子、身体乃至所谓的“自我”，一切体验归根结底都是心灵的投射。佛教的终极任务就是探索现实的本质构造——“万法唯心”。 ### [28:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1738s) 破除迷思：初入寺院与对冥想的痛苦误解 在身体大病初愈后，图腾正式在苏格兰的寺院安顿下来。寺院给予了他充分的静养空间，他只需要承担一些轻松的日常杂务。然而，随之而来的修行实践却给了他当头一棒——他发自内心地痛恨冥想。虽然图腾成长于一个信仰佛教的家庭，自幼便对佛教怀有敬仰与信仰，但他此前从未真正打坐冥想过。当他剃度成为僧人、仔细研读戒律与生活规则时，才发现每天都必须坐下来冥想，这让他陷入了极大的痛苦与挣扎之中。 图腾之所以最初极度厌恶冥想，是因为他陷入了大众最常见的认知误区：“我以为冥想就是要清空大脑（clear your mind）。”在最初的几周甚至几个月里： - **与念头对抗导致压力倍增**：他坐在蒲团上拼命试图压制思绪、排空杂念，然而他越是努力想要“清空”，大脑中的声音反而喧闹得越厉害。 - **内在批判之声被放大**：脑海中那个长期困扰他的负面声音——“你一无是处、你是个废物、你注定失败”不仅没有消失，反而在压制下变得越来越震耳欲聋。 - **重新定义冥想的内涵**：那种挫败感让他一度觉得自己完全不具备修行的能力。直到后来他才彻底明白，冥想根本与“清空杂念”无关，更不是让自己陷入某种无意识的恍惚状态，而是学会如何与自己的心念共处、如何不再受情绪与念头的摆布。 ### [03:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=180s) 破除冥想的误区：不是清空大脑，而是改变与念头的关系 图布登（Gelong Thubten）直言，冥想绝不是为了“消灭念头”或强行清空大脑；相反，念头在冥想中极其重要，它们实际上在协助你完成练习。他回忆起自己早期的修行经历，当时也误以为只要一坐下来，把所有的念头都狠狠推开，就能进入某种所谓的“禅境”（Zen state）。然而，那根本不是修行，而是一种纯粹的压抑（suppression）。他打了个生动的比方：这就像试图让一个坐在婴儿高脚椅上的小孩保持绝对静止一样，小孩子本能地想要扭动、四处乱动，强行按住只会适得其反。 设想一下，如果冥想的目标真是为了“大脑一片空白”，那又有什么意义？就算你真的能让头脑空白十分钟，接着重新投入一天的日常琐事，这算什么心灵旅程？那不过是相当于“在地上昏迷了十分钟”，倒不如直接去睡大觉。图布登表示，他完全理解当一个人心烦意乱、痛苦不堪、压力爆棚时，会极度渴望能有十分钟把一切开关都关掉，但那绝非长久之计，也根本行不通。真正的解决方法，是彻底改变你与自身念头之间的关系。 ### [03:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=206s) 走神不是失败：冥想的真正循环与重获专注 在常规的冥想练习中，最典型的做法是坐下来专注于呼吸。这与刻意的呼吸法（breath work）截然不同——你不需要刻意放慢呼吸、深呼吸或以某种特殊方式呼吸，只需顺其自然，让呼吸做它自己的事，而你仅仅将注意力放在上面。听上去这在理论上干净简单，但实际操作起来往往“一团糟”：刚坐下专注于呼吸不过几秒钟，脑子就开始天马行空，从购物清单、美食、性冲动到待处理的工作邮件，念头四处乱窜。 许多人就是在这个阶段觉得自己“彻底搞砸了”。当他们猛然意识到自己走神时，往往会痛责自己是个失败者，并带着愤怒的情绪把注意力生硬地拽回呼吸上。图布登强调，这种反应只会让你感到更加焦虑和压力重重，因为你实际上是在“训练自己体验失败感”。主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此深有共鸣，坦言自己尝试冥想时只要七秒钟就会神游物外，并形象地描述那种体验：“并不是说我看着呼吸时，能清清楚楚目睹思绪悄悄迈出一步溜掉；而是我上一秒还在注意呼吸，下一秒就像断片了一样，醒来时发现自己已经到了‘城镇的另一端’。” 图布登兴奋地回应，**“在念头中醒来，这正是冥想的定义！”** 你根本没有失败，当你意识到自己走神的那一刻，冥想就已经发生。整个冥想练习的核心循环其实非常清晰： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 冥想的核心循环机制 accDescr: 展示冥想中专注呼吸、走神觉察以及温和拉回注意力的三个阶段循环 subgraph MindCycle ["冥想的注意力循环"] A["专注于自然呼吸"] --> B["陷入杂念 / 迷失 (走神)"] B --> C["顿悟觉察：在念头中醒来"] C --> D["温和地将注意力拉回呼吸"] D --> A end ``` 正是“每一次将注意力拉回呼吸”的动作，构成了心智力量的来源： - **夺回选择权**：每一次拉回，都是在打破对杂念的成瘾与执念，重新掌控注意力该投向何处。 - **心理力量训练**：这就像去健身房举铁一样，日复一日、周复一日地锻炼心智肌肉，教会自己如何主动选择快乐、远离痛苦。 - **摆脱被念头劫持的命运**：普通人的常态就像是被用绳子捆住脚踝、拖在一辆失控乱撞的汽车后面；或者像驾驶舱被劫机犯占领，身不由己。而冥想则是让你重新坐回驾驶座，掌控方向盘。 ### [03:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=234s) 成为天空而非云朵：从观察者视角看透痛苦与执念 当史蒂文询问对于没有经历过长期严苛修行的普通人，冥想究竟能带来怎样具体的人生转变时，图布登解释道，并非每个人都需要出家或参加长达数年的极限闭关。他身边许多有家庭、有繁忙工作的朋友，每天仅仅练习十五分钟或两次，同样能取得极为显著的效果。冥想的核心在于找到内在的自由，让你领悟到自己远比那些驱动着你生活的痛苦与折磨要辽阔得多。 图布登提出了一个极具穿透力的哲学反问：**“当你感到不快乐或愤怒时，如果你正在觉察着自己的不快乐或愤怒，那么这个‘观察者’本身是不快乐或愤怒的吗？”** 答案是否定的。那个能清晰看到愤怒的心灵意识本身，不可能处于愤怒之中。在佛教哲学中，常用“天空与云朵”的比喻来阐释这一点：天空中可能汇聚着浓重阴郁的暴雨乌云，但天空永远比云朵更加辽阔无际。 人类终其一生追逐宏大的目标，或是在日常细碎中喝咖啡、喝水，表面上看似在寻找快乐、伴侣、性或成就，本质上追寻的都是一种解脱——从痛苦、匮乏和焦虑中解脱出来，回归自己真实的本性。这不仅是向内修己，更能转化向外的慈悲与联结，唯有先解放自己的心灵，才能在高度互联的世界里真正帮助他人。 - **不把一切看得过分沉重**：图布登回忆初见自己的佛法导师时，导师说话直率甚至有些严厉，在听完图布登滔滔不绝倾诉自己遭遇的种种不幸与过往创伤后，导师只平静地说了一句：“别把自己太当回事了（Stop taking yourself so seriously）。” - **看透实体性的幻象**：导师并非否定痛苦的真实体验，而是提醒他不要把念头、情绪、痛苦和过去当成不可撼动的“实体”（solidity）。佛教所说的“空性”（Emptiness）并非虚无虚脱的深渊，而是指万事万物都不像我们想象的那样沉重、僵死和牢不可破。 - **无条件的终极快乐**：世俗的快乐往往依赖于“如果……我就快乐”或“当……时我才快乐”的外在条件；而看透心智本质后的快乐，是一种“无论发生什么都能快乐”的无条件自在与内在自由。 ### [04:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=270s) 商业精英的误解：禅修状态与高绩效能否并存？ 史蒂文抛出了一个商业领袖非常关心的核心矛盾：**一个人能否既处于“成为天空”的超然觉察状态，又在现实中作为一名首席执行官（CEO）保持极其强悍的工作效能？** 图布登明确指出，认为“冥想会让人丧失进取心或变得软弱低效”，是当代职场对正念最普遍的误解之一。早在二十五年前——远在正念（Mindfulness）风靡全球各大跨国企业之前——他就已经开始走进企业与董事会进行冥想教学。在那个冥想还被视作离经叛道的年代，他在进入企业会议室前，常常会遭遇各种令人啼笑皆非的刻板印象和顾虑。 ### [41:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=2468s) 破解“冥想会让人失去斗志”的迷思 图布登（Gelong Thubten）分享了一段在企业讲授冥想时的真实经历。当时某家公司的首席执行官特意把他拉到一旁，谨慎地叮嘱：“请不要让他们太放松。”图布登不解地追问原因，这位 CEO 解释道，自己虽然认可图布登的教学，但极其担心员工在过于放松后会丧失进取心。图布登笑着回忆道，自己当场向对方澄清：“我不是某种舞台催眠师，我不会走进去把所有人都催眠成昏睡恍惚的状态。” 这种对话深刻反映了现代商业社会对冥想的普遍误解：人们往往认为冥想会让人变得轻飘飘、无欲无求、逆来顺受，从而磨灭拼搏的锐气与野心。然而，图布登强调事实完全相反——冥想关乎“极致的精准”（precision）与“活在当下”。它训练个体不再轻易被杂念分流，不再沦为负面思维的傀儡。当一个人能够挣脱内耗与分心的羁绊时，工作不仅能更加拼搏专注，反而还更不容易感到疲倦，同时还能促使高管与创业者更深层地审视自身行动的底层动机与最终目标。 ### [42:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=2536s) 做自己心智的 CEO：顶尖商界领袖为何推崇禅修 斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此深有共鸣。他坦言自己容易受到崇拜之人的影响，而史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）正是激发他探索佛教与冥想的关键人物。乔布斯拥有极深的禅修实践，并将自己能够洞察未来趋势的远见很大程度上归功于此。巴特利特向图布登询问，是否还有其他高生产力、极度成功的领袖因冥想而在事业上取得突破。 图布登指出，人们常说要“做自己的老板”（be your own boss），但现实中很多人充其量只能管理下属或在一定程度上掌控外部环境，极少有人能够真正成为“自己心智的首席执行官”（CEO of your own mind）。冥想赋予人们驾驭心智的能力，使他们在现实世界中变得前所未有地高效。不仅如此，冥想还会唤醒更深层的同理心与社会责任感，让领袖们超越对金钱与个人成功的狭隘追求，转而思考如何利用巨大的成功回馈社会，让世界变得更加美好。 巴特利特随即列举了多位顶尖商业领袖对冥想的公开评价： - **桥水基金（Bridgewater Associates）创始人雷·达利欧（Ray Dalio）**在其畅销书《原则》（*Principles*）及采访中多次表示：“冥想是我一生中取得任何成就的最关键要素，其重要性超越了其他任何事物。” - **Salesforce 创始人兼首席执行官马克·贝尼奥夫（Marc Benioff）**曾直言：“冥想是我每天所做的最重要的事情。” - **推特（Twitter）与 Block（原 Square）联合创始人杰克·多西（Jack Dorsey）**强调：“没有任何事情能比冥想对我的工作产生更大的积极影响。” - **史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs）**长期研习禅宗（Zen Buddhism），其苹果产品标志性的极简主义设计哲学与专注力便源于禅修体验。乔布斯曾深刻总结：“如果你只是坐下来静静观察，你会发现自己的心智有多么躁动不安。如果你试图强行平息它，只会适得其反；但假以时日，它终究会自然平静下来。” 图布登与巴特利特总结道，许多人之所以抗拒冥想，是因为把“平静”（calm）误解成了“被打了镇静剂般的麻木”。真正的平静，是在炮火连天的极限压力下依然能够维持清醒冷静的头脑（keep a cool head under fire），保持精准的判断力、顶级的专注力以及对核心使命的坚定把握。巴特利特将其精辟概括为大脑认知表现的极致优化：兼具思维清晰度与情绪掌控力。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 冥想对认知表现的赋能模型 accDescr: 展示了从心智管理到高效商业决策的转化路径 subgraph MindManagement ["心智自我掌舵"] A["日常冥想觉察训练"] --> B["成为自己心智的 CEO"] B --> C["摆脱负面内耗与杂念分心"] end subgraph HighPerformance ["卓越执行与定力"] C --> D["逆境中的冷静与清醒"] D --> E["极致专注与决策精准度"] end subgraph Impact ["格局提升"] E --> F["高生产力与远见卓识"] F --> G["超越物质利益的利他使命"] end ``` ### [46:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=2760s) 商业赞助：Shopify 与 Vivobarefoot 在对谈间歇，巴特利特分享了个人经历并介绍了当期节目的赞助品牌： - **Shopify 电商平台**：巴特利特回顾了自己从 12 岁起多次创业的历程，感叹早期在身无分文时不得不身兼数职——一人包办市场营销、销售业务、财务、客服与招聘。而现代创业者通过 Shopify 的 AI 集成功能，犹如从创立第一天起就拥有了一整套成熟的增长团队，可全自动化处理产品文案编写、网页设计排版、商品图像优化，以及仓储物流、税务核算和库存管理。 - **Vivobarefoot 赤足鞋**：哈佛大学丹尼尔·利伯曼（Dr. Daniel Lieberman）教授做客节目时曾指出，现代鞋履厚重的缓震支撑反而削弱了双脚的自然机能，诱发背痛与膝盖疼痛。巴特利特在患上足底筋膜炎后转向赤足鞋训练以恢复双脚原本的力量。利物浦大学（University of Liverpool）的科研数据表明，穿着 Vivobarefoot 六个月可将足部力量提升高达 60%。 ### [47:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=2875s) 佛教中的“空性”如何瓦解受害者心态与执念 巴特利特将话题转回核心哲学探讨：佛教常谈论“空性”（emptiness），主张生活本质上并非坚不可摧的实体，所谓的人格身份（identity）也只是一场虚幻的泡影。巴特利特敏锐地指出，这种“无我”的认知恰恰是“受害者心态”（victimhood）的解药——因为受害者心态的本质就是个体为自己构建了一个僵化的人格标签，围绕这个标签编织出一套饱受不公待遇的悲情叙事，并在现实生活中反复上演这种苦难。他由此询问图布登，佛教是如何看待受害者身份、创伤以及人格设定的。 图布登肯定了这一观点，并指出绝大多数人在无意识中都极度执着于过去的经历，成为昔日创伤的囚徒。佛教提供了一种颠覆性的全新视角：“你不是你的过去”（you are not your past）。哪怕从纯粹的现代生理学角度来看，人体内的每一个细胞都在不断更迭换新，人的心智也在每分每秒发生变化。过去与未来皆属虚幻的意识构造，真正实存的唯有此时此刻。冥想的意义就在于训练人们活在当下，学会不再死死抓着过去的伤痕与未来的忧虑不放。 为了阐释事物的“非坚固性”，图布登引用了佛教中极其著名的“拆解桌子”禅观： - 面前看似真实完整的一张桌子，本质上不过是由桌面和桌腿组合而成的构造。 - 如果将桌子的组件逐一拆散，那个固定不变的“桌子概念”究竟留存在哪里？ - 进一步把木块或金属继续切分粉碎，最终便进入了微观粒子物理学的领域。 图布登提到，佛学在此处与现代粒子物理学（particle physics）不谋而合：物理学家试图寻找构成物质世界不可再分的最基本单元，但佛教会说“不存在毫无内部结构的单一部分”（partless particle），因为只要它是一个微粒，就必然可以被进一步细分。人类所经验到的世界，表象上虽然看似坚硬无比——好比把茶杯砸向别人的头依然会造成真实的痛楚与创伤——但终极层面上，一切更像是一场梦境或幻象。 图布登强调，理解这种“缘起性空”并非教人去忽视现实生活中的物理规律或推卸责任，而是为了从深层解构痛苦。人类之所以承受如此巨大的精神折磨，正是因为总是耗费海量的生命精力，把身边的外物、人际冲突与内心创伤当成僵死不可动摇的庞然大物在进行无谓的对抗。当我们看透事物的流动与虚幻本质，便能从僵化的受害者叙事中抽身，获得彻底的心灵解脱。 ### [51:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3060s) 放下叙事，直面感受：四年闭关中的崩溃 面对人世间背负的沉重包袱——无论是痛失所爱的悲痛、情感破碎的创伤，还是职场人际的龃龉与社交媒体上的负面评论，人们往往深陷其中无法自拔。当被问及如何卸下这些心理重负时，格隆·图腾（Gelong Thubten）给出了一个极为核心的原则：“放下故事，直面感受”（dropping the story and looking at the feeling）。这一深刻洞见的形成，源于他在苏格兰偏远海岛上经历的一场长达四年的严苛闭关修行。 图腾出家一年后决定继续留驻僧团，并在第四年许下了终身誓愿。然而，直到出家整整十二年后，他才迎来参加四年长期全封闭冥想闭关的契机。在那段彻底与世隔绝、每日闭门禅修数小时的极度孤独中，闭关初期的前两年却化作了他人生中最可怖的梦魇。他原以为自己出家十二载且已开始公开讲授禅修，内心早已足够坚定完备，但现实却击得他粉碎。极度的抑郁、痛苦、焦虑以及频频爆发的恐慌发作如海啸般将他吞没。 在那段黑暗时期，图腾完全陷入了对内在“叙事”的执迷。他试图在脑海中扮演自己的心理治疗师，不断挖掘陈年旧忆：“这是不是因为我14岁时遭遇的事情？还是我17岁时的变故？是不是原生家庭的错？”然而，越是向过去的故事深挖索解，痛苦与焦虑反而越发剧烈膨胀，甚至让他对佛教本身产生了强烈的疏离与幻灭，整日只想逃离这个令人窒息的环境。 - **修行历程与转折**：图腾出家4年后发下终身戒，出家12年后进入为期4年的深度封闭禅修。 - **“自我分析”的心理误区**：在闭关前两年，他将大量精力耗费在梳理过往创伤与心理因果上，试图通过理性剖析来治愈抑郁，反而让心理防线彻底崩溃。 ### [54:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3272s) 翻墙出逃与雨中顿悟：在绝境中重返闭关 内心的痛苦最终在一次前所未有的剧烈恐慌发作中全面引爆。图腾在极度的绝望中“眼前一片通红”，理智荡然无存，竟然直接翻越了闭关中心的围墙狂奔出逃。在规矩森严的四年闭关中，擅自脱逃是不可想象的破戒之举。他顺着苏格兰荒凉岛屿上泥泞的道路，在倾盆大雨中拼命奔跑，直到精疲力竭才猛然驻足自问：“你到底在干什么？你究竟怎么了？” 暴雨浇熄了恐慌的烈焰，带来了一阵惊人的清醒。图腾毅然折返回去乞求重回闭关所。寺院住持并未立刻应允，而是罚他在闭关边界处的一辆简陋大篷车（caravan）里独处反省整整七天。在这面壁思过的七天里，图腾内心展开了激烈的交战，甚至想过彻底放弃僧侣身份。但他最终意识到：绝不能在惊慌失措与恐慌发作时做出生死攸关的人生抉择；唯有身处清明笃定时，才能看清真正的方向。 图腾深切领悟到，人类天生是“规避不适”（discomfort-avoiding）的生物，习惯本能地逃向舒适与感官享乐。人们以为换个环境、坐飞机去另一个国家重新开始就能远离痛苦，但事实上“你永远无法逃离你自己”。那些折磨内心的阴影早已融为自我的一部分，无论逃到天涯海角都会如影随形。如果不学会与创伤和解整合，它迟早会再次将人绊倒。深知这是自己“破釜沉舟”（make or break）的最后机会，图腾带着必须脱胎换骨的决心重新跨入了闭关大门。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 面对痛苦的两种路径对比 accDescr: 展示逃避叙事与直面接纳两种不同应对痛苦方式的过程与结果 subgraph NarrativeEscape["逃避与叙事模式（旧模式）"] A["内在痛苦与焦虑爆发"] --> B["向外逃跑/执迷过去的故事"] B --> C["自我分析与评判反刍"] C --> D["恐慌加剧与自我疏离"] end subgraph SomaticAcceptance["感受与接纳模式（新模式）"] E["重返内心绝境"] --> F["将痛苦作为冥想对象"] F --> G["聚焦纯粹身体感觉/悬置好坏评判"] G --> H["神经系统释放/深层自我接纳"] end ``` ### [58:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3498s) 将痛楚化作冥想：把心中的利刃转为解脱之门 重返闭关房后，曾经的抑郁、焦虑与心碎感如期卷土重来。图腾形容那种体感宛如“一把锋利的刀子在心脏正中不断被反复拧绞”，痛彻心扉。以往他的本能反应要么是拼命想拔出这把刀，要么是追问这把刀为何会在那里。但这一次，他做出了一个革命性的决定：**把这把刺在心口的利刃直接当作冥想的对境**。 当一个人决定迎着痛楚走去并将痛苦本身转化为禅修时，痛苦便失去了伤害他的毒性，因为主客体关系发生了根本逆转。图腾开始放下所有的思维叙事与主观评判——不再抱怨“这太可怕了”、“我为什么如此抑郁”，而是将全副注意力沉降到身体对疼痛的纯粹生理感知（sensation in the body）上。冥想的最高法则在于不带好恶评判地专注，当他不再推拒排斥这种绞痛，奇迹般的转变悄然发生。 长期以来，禅宗导师们不断强调的“接纳”（acceptance）曾让图腾极为反感，听上去宛如“一辈子拖着一麻袋沉重的石头爬山”般枯燥苦涩。直到此刻他才真正明白，所谓接纳绝非消极忍受，而是最深层次的自我慈悲（compassion）。从生化机制而言，当大脑拼命推拒排斥痛苦时，体内会激增大量的压力荷尔蒙皮质醇（cortisol）；而当你主动拥抱痛苦、与痛楚合二为一并学会放松时，紧绷的神经机制便会迎来真正的瓦解与释放。 ### [01:01:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3706s) 转变痛苦：从自我厌恶到温柔接纳 当身体和心灵真正放松下来时，内啡肽（endorphins）开始分泌，一种奇异的快乐感油然而生。Gelong Thubten 指出，这听起来可能匪夷所思——那件曾经深深伤害你的事情，竟然开始转变为一种喜悦的感受。这让人顿悟：幸福与外界是否有人对自己好、或者拥有某件物品毫无关系，真正的幸福在于能够坦然接纳自己的痛苦（"Happiness is about being okay with your suffering"），甚至更进一步，主动向内心深处那个你曾极度厌恶的角落输送爱意。 对 Thubten 个人而言，过去的内心体验犹如一把尖刀在身体里不断绞动，带来剧烈的痛楚，而他本能地只想除之而后快。然而在闭关修行中，他学会了用爱去承托这份痛楚。他的脑海中浮现出一个生动的意象：自己仿佛在荒野中拾起了一只受惊的兔子，或是托起了一只折断了翅膀的小鸟，正以无尽的温柔将其捧在手心。在人生的前几十年里，他从未能这样对待过自己；在此之前，他的生命充斥着严苛与自我厌恶。 在青少年时期试图成为一名成功演员的岁月里，驱动他的内在动力其实正是自我厌恶——“既然我无法爱自己，那我就必须让成千上万的人来爱我”。即便是后来出家为僧、恪守独身戒律并过上清修生活，这种匮乏感依然换了副面孔出现：他与寺院里的朋友建立了极强的依恋关系，渴望他人善待自己，因为他根本无法忍受与自己独处。在闭关冥想的前两年里，他甚至因无法忍受内心的痛苦而翻墙逃跑，拼尽一切手段想“逃离自己的皮囊”。直到他学会向那个被自己厌弃的部分输送慈悲，生命才迎来了根本性的蜕变。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 从抗拒痛苦到用慈悲转化的过程 accDescr: 展现了从过去的外求爱与自我厌恶，转变为聚焦躯体感受并用慈悲包裹痛苦的内在心理流动 subgraph Trap["过去的恶性循环"] A["内在创伤与剧痛<br/>（如体内绞刀）"] --> B["极度自我厌恶与逃避"] B --> C["外求关注与人际依附<br/>（演戏渴望被爱 / 依赖同修）"] C -->|无法根治| A end subgraph Practice["慈悲接纳的转化路径"] D["剥离过去叙事与杂念"] --> E["锚定当下的躯体感受<br/>（心口绞痛 / 坠落感）"] E --> F["以温存之心承托剧痛<br/>（如手捧折翼之鸟）"] F --> G["痛苦边缘软化消融<br/>（内啡肽分泌 / 获得内在坚韧）"] end Trap -.->|冥想觉察转化| Practice ``` --- ### [01:04:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3845s) 躯体化感受：与痛楚和解的入口 当被问及后来如何看待那只“折翅的小鸟”时，Thubten 坦言自己对内在的那部分升起了深切的爱。实现这种转变的关键在于：停止被大脑中纷繁复杂的个人历史、陈年旧账与细节叙事所牵扯，转而将注意力全然锚定在当下身体的具体感受上。 对于许多人来说，抑郁、焦虑或创伤往往显得十分模糊抽象，让人无从下手。但对 Thubten 而言，这些情绪具有极强且清晰的物理表征——比如心口宛如被刀绞，或是胸膛里沉甸甸的下坠感。学会带着善意与这些具体的生理感官共处，让他真正学会了如何自爱。他特别强调，这种自爱绝非自恋狂（egomaniac）式的盲目自大，而是一种深度的自我宽厚与接纳。 --- ### [01:05:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3912s) 面对至亲之死：阿贡仁波切遇害的至暗时刻 对话随后转向人生中最难跨越的课题——哀恸与丧亲之痛（Grief and loss）。Thubten 分享了自己生命中最沉痛的创伤：十一年前，他的根本上师、最亲密的好友阿贡仁波切（Choje Akong Rinpoche）遭遇残忍杀害。阿贡仁波切是驻苏格兰三宝法林藏传佛教寺院的负责人，也是慈善机构“若巴”（ROKPA International）的创办人，每年都会赴藏区开展慈善项目，资助孤儿院、学校与医院。然而在那一年的进藏途中，仁波切在成都被人伏击并刺杀身亡。 这一噩耗震动了整个佛教界。对 Thubten 而言，打击更是毁灭性的——他作为仁波切的私人随侍，此前每天都与其通电话，并贴身陪同处理各种事务。消息传来时，他形容自己“彻底被炸得粉碎”（"blew me to pieces"），那种剧痛无法用言语形容。在事件发生后的初期，他作为助手必须出面应对大量媒体报道，忙碌的公事在白天勉强支撑着他；然而一到夜晚，无处安放的哀伤排山倒海而来。 在长夜中辗转反侧时，他感到全身仿佛置身于熊熊烈火之中，悲痛、愤怒与绝望交织在一起。更令人心碎的是，行凶者并不是陌生人，而是曾与他们同在苏格兰寺院修行的一名藏族僧人，不仅与 Thubten 同名，彼此还十分熟稔。这种背叛感与困惑将痛苦推向了极点。正是在被烈焰焚烧般的绝望关头，过去闭关修行的冥想力量被唤醒了——他躺在床上，开始尝试向自己体内翻腾的烈火输送爱与慈悲。 - **遇害者**：阿贡仁波切（Choje Akong Rinpoche），苏格兰桑耶林寺院住持，ROKPA 慈善创办人。 - **事发时间与地点**：约 11 年前（2013年），中国成都。 - **凶手身份**：曾在该寺院常住并与 Thubten 熟识的一名藏人僧侣（同名）。 - **最后的馈赠**：正是阿贡仁波切生前传授给 Thubten 这套应对痛苦的慈悲冥想法，成为了他在失去导师后熬过极度绝望的救命稻草。 --- ### [01:09:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4176s) 慈悲的实修：超越语言，向烈焰输送爱 面对如何“向内心的烈火输送爱意”的具体方法，Thubten 澄清这并非在脑海中重复念诵某些特定的自我肯定句子，而是超越语言层面，进入一种直截了当的觉受与合一状态。 其实际操作与基础呼吸冥想异曲同工，只是专注的锚点发生了变化： 1. **锚定痛感**：当遭遇巨大创伤时，首先在身体上找到它最鲜明的生理映射（例如浑身如焚烧、心脏如刀割）。 2. **绕开念头**：切断大脑中诸如“这太难受了”、“为什么是他死了”、“到底发生了什么”等叙事妄念，单纯专注于纯粹的身体感受。 3. **倾注慈爱**：如同陪伴一位处于崩溃或极度悲伤中的密友一样，你绝不会扇对方耳光让他“清醒点”，而是会温柔地握住他的手。冥想正是用意识拥抱并爱抚那团剧痛的感官。 Thubten 提到，这契合了佛教哲学的核心基石：人类的心智本性是具足慈悲的。人类绝非某些理论所鼓吹的“战斗或逃跑的杀戮机器”，善良与慈悲才是人类最深层的本真状态。当一个人终于能够在内在握住自己的手、以善意浸润痛苦时，创伤原本尖锐嶙峋的棱角便会开始消融软化。一种从未体验过的新型幸福感随之升起——那是一种“即便处于不好的状态中，我也完全可以安然处之”的踏实与力量。 ### [01:12:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4352s) 原谅不是妥协，而是放下手中滚烫的热炭 当 Steven 询问图登（Gelong Thubten）是否原谅了残忍杀害其密友兼导师阿贡仁波切（Choje Akong Tulku Rinpoche）的凶手时，图登坦然回答：“是的，而且相当快。”他解释道，这在某种程度上反而更容易释怀，因为真相很快浮出水面——行凶者当时处于极度的精神错乱（psychotic）状态。尽管这绝不是在为其罪行开脱或纵容，但面对一个连自我意识都已彻底失控的人，“你又怎么可能去恨他呢？” 由此两人探讨了宽恕这一对凡人而言极为艰难的修行。在日常生活中，人们总觉得身边有人伤害过自己、辜负了自己，而我们往往将“心怀怨恨”视作伸张正义、平衡内心委屈的方式。但图登反问道：难道我们真的以为，只要放下怨恨，对方就“逍遥法外”了吗？事实上恰恰相反——当你执守怨恨时，对方才真正得逞了，因为每一分每一秒在经受折磨的只有你自己。佛法中有一个广为人知的比喻：怀恨在心，就如同赤手紧握一块烧得滚烫的金属或热炭，被灼伤皮肉的只有你自己的手。 很多人以为原谅（forgiveness）意味着屈服、认输，甚至从字面上看它包含了一个“give”，似乎是一种处于弱势地位的妥协。但图登强调，原谅绝非软弱，而是一种巨大的力量。真正的原谅甚至与对方毫无关系——你不需要特意寄一封信告诉对方“我原谅你了”，宽恕的本质是让自己解脱，扔掉内心情绪的毒瘤与沉重包袱。旁人轻描淡写的一句“看开点、放下吧”，往往让人恨不得给对方一记耳光，因为放下谈何容易。而禅修正是松解心智执念的工具：哪怕仅仅是专注呼吸这一极简的训练，也能像解开粘合剂一样，让你与愤怒、怨恨的情绪脱钩，不再被其牢牢困死。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 怨恨与宽恕的心智机制对比 accDescr: 对比怀抱怨恨造成的自我伤害与通过宽恕实现心理松绑的两种心智路径 subgraph Grudge["执守怨恨（紧握热炭）"] A["遭受伤害与委屈"] --> B["认为'怨恨'是伸张正义"] B --> C["被愤怒情绪黏合牢固"] C --> D["持续受害者状态 / 施害者事实上获胜"] end subgraph Forgiveness["真正的宽恕（松绑解脱）"] E["觉察到内心的毒性与剧痛"] --> F["通过禅修将意识与怒气解绑"] F --> G["放下沉重包袱，与施害者无关"] G --> H["实现精神自由与内心转化"] end ``` --- ### [01:15:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4522s) 宽恕感受，并将苦难化作精神的“堆肥” 面对图登早年经历的性侵、父母离异以及成长中的情感忽视等多重心理创伤，Steven 追问他是否已经原谅了过往伤害过他的所有人。图登坦言自己并不确定宽恕究竟是一个具有仪式感的顿悟时刻，还是一场漫长而细微的演变过程。不可思议的是，他如今不仅与这些人保持着亲密的友谊，更在认知上经历了一次关键升华：“比起原谅那些人，我学会了原谅这些事件在自己体内所激起的情绪感受。这对我来说要重要得多。” 他将自己经历的一切痛苦视作一种宝贵的原料——就像他的上师阿贡仁波切常说的那样：“苦难就像堆肥（compost）。”堆肥是用腐烂发臭的残渣败叶制成的，普通人避之不及只想扔掉，但懂得耕作的农夫却知道如何用它滋养大地、催生丰硕的庄稼。 除了禅修，改变认知的深度思考也是走向和解的桥梁。图登在面对父亲及其他伤害过自己的人时，学会了去凝视驱使他们做出那些恶劣行径背后的痛苦与混乱。人性的本能往往是站在道德制高点上愤懑不平：“他们怎么敢这样？他们理应明事理！”然而佛法的视角却直击真相：“他们怎么可能明事理？他们只知道自己认知范围内的东西，他们被自身的困惑与痛苦所驱使。”没有人在刻意密谋害你，他们只是深陷在自身的苦海之中，而你恰好撞在了风口浪尖。意识到“这一切其实与你无关”，内心的怨恨重压便会骤然减轻。 - **苦难即养分**：将过往的剧痛视为心理重塑的肥料，痛苦本身成为心智蜕变的催化剂。 - **换位沉思练习**：图登经常练习在心智中与伤害自己的人互换位置，闭上双眼，尝试透过对方的双眼与认知局限去打量那个扭曲的世界。 --- ### [01:17:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4666s) 360度全景视角：我们都是心智失控的困兽 当人们回想起伤害过自己的人时，最顽固的障碍往往在于认定对方是个“混蛋”或“纯粹的恶人”。但图登直言不讳地指出：“我们何尝不都是混蛋呢？我们全都在某种程度上混乱不堪，全都受制于自己无法驾驭的心智。”任何经常练习打坐的人都会深刻体会到自我控制力的脆弱——哪怕只是试图安安静静地数几次呼吸，脑子里却不断冒出琐碎的购物清单。人类的心智本身就是如此混乱失序，连我们自己都无法随心所欲地驾驭它，又何必苛求他人完美无缺？ 理解这一点并不是为恶行开脱，更不是陷入“责备受害者”（victim-shaming）的错误深渊。图登重申，这绝非要求受害者自怨自艾，而是要学会以一种更轻盈、更通达的态度看待人性：人们在大多数时候都只是在拼尽全力求生，只不过有时他们“尽力而为”的产物实在糟糕至极。 禅修赋予修行者的，正是一种从狭隘的自我中心抽离出来的 360 度全景视角。当不幸发生时，凡夫俗子的第一反应是将其全盘私人化（take it personally），认为是针对自己的恶意攻击；而全景视角让人看清，这种残破、混乱与失控是普遍存在的人类生存境况（the human condition）。一旦看透这一层，伤害带来的毒性与刺痛感便被自然瓦解。 --- ### [01:19:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4772s) 中场公告：DOAC 核心圈与《1% 日记》 在播客中场休息期间，Steven 向听众宣布了两项重要动态： - **DOAC 核心圈社群（DOAC Circle）**：Steven 邀请首批 10,000 名核心听众加入全新推出的私密专属社群。社群成员享有前所未有的特权，不仅可以查阅 Steven 录制时 iPad 上的提问提纲、未公开的花絮与访谈片段、嘉宾幕后对话，还能直接与 Steven 交流，共同参与决定未来的访谈人选与讨论主题。首批名额仅限前 10,000 人。 - **《1% 日记》（The 1% Diary）**：Steven 分享了团队内部一件看似微小却至关重要的趣事——团队成员 Jemima 在 Slack 上发布消息称更换了演播室的香氛，整个办公室随即在频道中热烈鼓掌。Steven 指出，正是这种执着于 1% 微小改进的复利力量，铸就了节目的水准。为此历时两年研发的《1% 日记》内部配有精美插图、激励语录与互动设计，旨在帮助使用者在日常生活中聚焦并践行带来质变的 1% 微小行动。 --- ### [01:21:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4886s) 笼罩日常的隐形恐惧：从重大决断到微观焦虑 节目重新切回正题，Steven 将焦点引向现代人普遍面临的心理困境——恐惧。许多人在生活中常常感到被困住、受掣肘，不敢冒险，不敢辞职经商，不敢追求自己的狂热爱好，也不敢做出像出家成为僧侣或搬去巴厘岛定居那样颠覆性的重大人生抉择。更重要的是，恐惧不仅体现在这些关乎人生走向的宏大抉择前，更以一种如影随形的隐微焦虑（subtle anxiety）形式，无时无刻不在侵蚀着人们当下每分每秒的生活体验。 图登深表赞同，表示宏观的止步不前与微观的时刻焦虑实为一体两面。这种感受在他结束长达数年的闭关修行重返世俗世界时，表现得尤为明显和尖锐。他在 2005 年至 2009 年期间完成了整整四年与世隔绝的闭关冥想，正是这次脱离现代社会的洗礼，让他重新审视了弥漫在现代人意识深处无孔不入的恐惧文化。 ### [01:22:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=4941s) 闭关归来后的技术冲击与“恐惧文化”的盛行 格隆·图腾（Gelong Thubten）回忆起自己结束长达四年的闭关禅修重新回归外部世界时的强烈震撼。在那四年完全与世隔绝的日子里，他根本没有接触过互联网；而在他闭关前，人们顶多在使用黑莓手机（BlackBerry）。然而等他走出闭关时，科技格局发生了翻天覆地的剧变——智能手机与社交媒体已经彻底席卷了每一个角落。当他抵达伦敦，走在伦敦地铁的扶梯上时，看到所有人都在低头死死盯着屏幕，地铁两旁的广告牌全都换成了闪烁晃动的动态数字图像，这甚至一度让他感到头晕目眩。 这种脱离正常现实再重新归来的极端落差，让他以一种抽离且充满警醒的视角审视现代社会。他深刻地意识到，现代人时刻处于一种被刻意制造的恐惧之中。当新闻媒体全面数字化和商业变现后，为了留住受众眼球，各种手段层出不穷：耸人听闻的标题党（clickbait）、充满危言耸听的头条，用户往往需要滑到文章的三分之二处才能看到实际内容，中途全被广告占据。人们理智上清楚这些把戏，但在潜意识层面依然被其牢牢裹挟与操控，整天生活在“自己身处危险之中”的幻觉里。 图腾强调自己绝非反技术主义者，技术能够创造很多美好事物，但对待技术必须像对待食物一样：如果暴饮暴食或不加甄别地吃垃圾食品，身体就会生病；技术消费若缺乏自律与辨别力，心灵同样会病态。如今，恐惧不仅主导了媒体，更渗透进政治说辞（通过制造敌人与危机迫使选民出于恐惧投票）与商业营销（通过“抢购从速、售完即止”制造匮乏焦虑）。面对这种由商业利益与权力结构驱动的恐惧文化，唯一的解药不是逃回山林或扔掉手机，而是用禅修武装心灵，学会在充满恐慌的世界中保持无畏。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代恐惧刺激与禅修应对模式 accDescr: 对比由商业、媒体与政治驱动的恐惧条件反射，与通过禅修建立的理性回应机制 subgraph External["外部环境诱发恐惧"] Media["数字媒体 / 标题党"] Commerce["商业消费主义 / 匮乏焦虑"] Politics["政治操弄 / 危机恐慌"] end subgraph BrainReaction["自动化神经回路（未经修习）"] Stimulus["感知威胁刺激"] Impulse["冲动与焦虑爆发"] Reaction["被动反应：低头刷手机 / 恐慌抢购 / 愤怒反击"] end subgraph MindfulPath["正念修习干预回路（神经重塑）"] MicroPause["微正念暂停：立足当下 / 观察呼吸"] ChoiceGap["觉察『冲动与行动的间隙』"] Response["主动回应：平静接纳 / 自主选择"] end External --> Stimulus Stimulus --> Impulse Impulse --> Reaction Stimulus -. 禅修觉察介入.-> MicroPause MicroPause --> ChoiceGap ChoiceGap --> Response ``` ### [01:24:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5093s) 微正念与重塑大脑：排队与堵车中的“微型修习” 为了在喧嚣的世界中维持从容，图腾分享了一种极其务实的方法——在日常繁忙嘈杂的环境中践行“微型正念时刻”（micro moments of meditation）。日常生活中，除了每天固定坐下来的正式禅修外，随时随地都可以进行只有几秒或几十秒的微修习。比如在机场或超市排队时，或者在遭遇严重交通堵塞时，不要任由自己陷入惯性的急躁、焦虑，或者机械性地掏出手机刷新屏幕，而是将注意力拉回到身体感知上：感受双脚与地面的接触，感受地面的坚实；觉察自己紧绷耸起的双肩，有意识地让肩膀下沉放松；体会自然平缓的呼吸。 这种微小的停顿之所以能够彻底改变一个人的生存现实，是因为它正在从神经生物学层面“重塑大脑”（rewiring your brain）。人类面对“受阻”的情境（如堵车、延误、排队）时，神经回路早已固化为紧张与不耐烦的条件反射；而每一次主动插入的微正念，都在打破这种旧的回路，教导大脑学会以平静从容的姿态去迎接压力。久而久之，人不再是被外部处境牵着鼻子走的被动反应者，甚至能够在下一次交通堵塞来临时坦然面对，在心中升起一种“放马过来吧”的豁达与无畏。 ### [01:26:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5185s) 冲动与行动之间的空隙：反应还是回应的分岔路口 史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）与图腾深入探讨了人类行为模式的核心命题：在“发生的事情”与“我们的应对”之间，究竟是否存在一个至关重要的空隙？图腾直言，绝大多数人的一生都处于无意识的“被动反应”（reaction）之中——饿了就抓起东西吃，有人打招呼就随口回应，遇到挑衅就立刻发怒。人们看似清醒地活着，实则完全被刺激-反应的本能操控，极少真正带着自主意识去生活。 图腾指出，人类在生命中的每一分每一秒，其实都站在一个无形的分岔路口（fork in the road）：一条路是毫无觉知的“被动反应之途”（road of reaction），另一条路是清明自觉的“主动回应之途”（road of response）。禅修的核心价值，正是为心灵创造一个暂停的契机，拉开“冲动与行动之间的空隙”。在这个宝贵的空隙里，人们拥有了重新做选择的自由与力量：在交通堵塞时不一定非要烦躁抓狂，可以选择沉浸于正念呼吸；当职场同事脾气暴躁、出言不逊时，也不必本能地反唇相讥随后又深感悔恨，而是可以选择克制情绪、温和以对。 ### [01:27:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5255s) 摒弃仪式杂物，从晨间十分钟禅修起步 当史蒂芬请图腾为自己量身定制一套从零开始的禅修行动指南时，图腾的第一条建议出乎很多人的意料：彻底扔掉桌上所有看似充满“灵性”的琐碎物件。他直截了当地指出，眼前摆放的颂钵、熏香、神秘戒指等杂七杂八的物品纯粹是“灵性垃圾”（spiritual tat）。禅修的本质是面对自己的心智，而非依赖任何外部象征物或昂贵道具；真正的修行完全不需要任何复杂装备。 图腾为现代人定制了一套切实可行的入门框架： - **练习时长**：每天坚持 10 分钟。神经脑成像研究表明，仅需连续 4 天、每天 10 分钟的正念练习，大脑结构就会显现出肉眼可见的神经重塑变化。这就像去健身房举铁增肌一样，是一种确定可积累的神经锻炼。 - **最佳时间**：建议安排在清晨醒来后立即进行。人体早晨醒来时皮质醇（压力荷尔蒙）会迎来一个生理峰值，晨间禅修能迅速平抑压力水平；切忌醒来第一时间去翻看工作邮件或 WhatsApp 消息。 - **坐姿规范**：无需执着于复杂的盘腿坐姿，端坐在普通椅子上即可，关键是保持脊柱自然挺拔，维持清晰端正的体态。 - **注入慈悲发心（Setting the Intention）**：禅修绝不仅仅是机械化的“大脑体操”，必须在开始前注入利他的慈悲心。修行者不应执着于狭隘的得失诉求，而是确立宏大的发心：“我不仅为了自己而修习，也是为了天下所有众生而修习。”这种发心并非盲目幻想着打坐就能立刻平息世界战争，而是认识到通过调伏自心，能让自己成为一个更具行动力、更能在世间传递爱与慈悲的生命个体。 ### [01:30:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5435s) 现场呼吸与身体觉察引导 在对话现场，图腾随即带领史蒂芬进行了一场沉静专注的现场正念体验。修习从确立慈悲意图开始，将心念导向利己利他的宽广心境；随后，引导意识逐步降落回当下的身体感官之中。 - **双手觉知**：将注意力安放在平放于膝盖或双腿的双手上。手指指尖分布着极其密集的神经末梢，因此从这里感知皮肤与衣物布料的触碰质感最为敏锐容易。 - **双肩放松**：将觉察慢慢上移至肩膀。现代人长期伏案电脑前或沉迷手机，双肩往往积聚了大量未被察觉的肌肉僵硬与张力；随着注意力温柔地照亮肩部，紧绷感自然下沉并消散。 - **身体前侧与呼吸节奏**：将感知带到身体前部，开始觉察呼吸的自然流动。这里的核心要诀在于“不要刻意用力呼吸，不要强行追求深呼吸”，只需允许气息保持原生态的自然出入，将注意力轻柔系于胸腔或腹部随呼吸起伏的律动上。 - **分心即回归**：一旦察觉到心智走神、杂念纷飞，完全无需自责，只需温和而坚定地将注意力重新牵引回呼吸的升降起落之间，并可进一步细化至鼻腔边缘空气进出时的细微触感。 ### [01:32:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5559s) 呼吸冥想练习的收尾与“精神瘾君子”的警示 格隆·图腾（Gelong Thubten）继续引导观众完成呼吸练习：若能用鼻呼吸则用鼻呼吸，不行便用嘴呼吸。练习的重点在于敏锐觉察空气进出鼻孔或嘴唇边缘时拂过皮肤的触感；一旦意识到心念飘走，就温柔地将注意力带回。在结束这段短练习时，他引导大家再次将注意力转向慈悲心，将当下的修习回向给自己和一切众生的解脱、慈悲与幸福。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 冥想心态陷阱与纠正 accDescr: 展现从匮乏感追求快感陷入沮丧，到放下评判接纳当下的思维转变。 subgraph 错误模式["陷入'瘾君子'误区"] A["追求即刻快感/高潮"] --> B["预设内心匮乏: '我现在不好'"] B --> C["5分钟后未见极乐 -> 加剧沮丧与沉沦感"] end subgraph 正确修习["放下品控的心态"] D["放弃价值评判"] --> E["不问好坏/喜欢与否"] E --> F["仅仅持续去坐，允许一切呈现"] end ``` 练习结束后，图腾提出了一个至关重要的警示：现代人往往会在练习后习惯性地自我审视“我刚才做得好吗？”，这恰恰是最容易绊倒自己的陷阱。在当今万事追求即时感官刺激的文化下，人们常常误以为必须“感受到某种强烈的感觉”才算有效。图腾坦承，自己刚开始学习冥想时非常痛苦和排斥，后来发狠大量练习、试图成为专业高手，结果反而陷入更深的抑郁，胸口涌起沉重的下坠感。他焦急地向导师阿空仁波切（Akong Rinpoche）求助，抱怨冥想让自己更抑郁。仁波切却一针见血地喝道：“这和冥想毫无关系，是你自己的问题——你就像个瘾君子（junkie），把冥想当成了毒品！” 仁波切指出，图腾坐在那里其实是在“等药效发作”，急不可耐地等待冥想带给他如吸毒般的快感与极乐。图腾恍然大悟：当自己枯坐5分钟便开始焦躁地想“我的极乐在哪？我什么时候才能感觉变好？”时，这种急于“让自己变好”的动机本身就根植于深沉的“匮乏感（lack）”。为了摆脱这种恶性循环，对待冥想的唯一正确态度就是“彻底放下评判与品控”——无论感觉好坏、喜欢与否，都不予理会，仅仅是每天坐下来去做。 --- ### [01:35:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5732s) 现代人的分心强迫症与大脑重塑的科学依据 史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）感叹自己确实急需开始冥想，提到伴侣每天早晨都会雷打不动地冥想20到30分钟。图腾追问他：“既然如此唾手可得，她每天都在你身边做，究竟是什么阻碍了你坐到她身旁？” 史蒂芬剖析了自己的内心，承认自己极度抗拒安静，独处时面对自己纷乱的思绪会感到无比难受。他坦言自己已经形成了极度依赖外界刺激的强迫行为模式： - 进浴室冲凉时必须播放播客、新闻或YouTube视频。 - 晚上入睡时耳朵里必须塞着声音，大脑几乎被训练成无法容忍片刻寂静。 - 甚至经历过如果不看视频就完全咽不下饭的阶段。 图腾回应说，这种被外界刺激绑架的现象在现代社会极为普遍，但这也恰恰证明了冥想对史蒂芬而言是绝佳的解药——它提供了一种全然不同、重新感知自我的路径。 史蒂芬进而探讨了阻碍行动的心理机制：人们去健身房锻炼，即便过程痛苦费力，但大脑清晰地知道肌肉会生长、身体会变强，因为看得到确切的因果证据；而从未冥想过的人往往看不到直观的收益。图腾反驳道，科学研究早已证实，仅仅连续冥想4天，大脑扫描影像（Brain Scan）中就会出现清晰可见的结构性改变。虽然修行者自身未必能立刻在感知上察觉，但了解这些神经科学证据，就能像深知健康饮食必能改善体质一样，给予初学者足够的信心。 --- ### [01:38:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5903s) 改变心灵的放映机与终身僧人誓愿 图腾进一步阐明，冥想的效果因人而异，无法画出一条“冥想X天就能达到Y级专注”的线性函数图表，但持续数天或数周后，人们会真切感受到自己面对生活困境的承载能力大幅提升。对他而言，核心的修习就是学会与不适共处，不再一味逃避。 史蒂芬深刻领悟道：“我们常常忽视了一点——整个人类体验其实全都在我们的大脑和心灵之中发生。”图腾对此强烈共鸣，用了一个生动的比喻： > “不要执迷于银幕上纷乱变化的电影情节，要去向源头——也就是那台放映机（projector）。去改变、转化并修持这台放映机自身。” 回顾过去30年的僧侣生涯，图腾分享了自己内在“放映机”的本质飞跃： - **消解自我憎恨**：曾经无休止撕扯内心的消极声音与强烈的自我厌恶彻底烟消云散，内心获得了前所未有的安宁与快乐。 - **与身体苦痛和平共处**：在疫情初期，图腾曾感染了极其严重的COVID-19，对心脏和肺部造成了永久性损伤，长期饱受长新冠和器官病痛的折磨。然而，通过慈悲练习，他能够安住在病弱的躯体中，源源不断地向体内输送爱与接纳，从而维持了强大的生活机能。 - **超越功利心**：他如今甚至不再在乎冥想“究竟管不管用”，因为他建立了深沉的信任，准备打一场终生的持久战。 谈及为何立下终身僧人誓愿（lifelong vows），图腾动情地回忆道，当年一穿上僧袍，身体里的每一个细胞就像严丝合缝地“咔哒（clicked）”一声归位了。他坦言自己对宗教教条或盲目崇拜毫无兴趣，他唯一在乎的是“如何探索与调伏心智”，以及如何利用僧人身份在这个世界上利益他人。 面对“你是否已经大功告成（finished）”的疑问，图腾坚定地澄清：修心是一场永远在进行中的过程，绝非一劳永逸。他大笑着自嘲：“我现在依然一团糟（I'm still a mess），但我完全接纳自己的一团糟。”过去那个在脑海里怒斥“你太恶心了、你真丢人”的严酷声音已经死去，取而代之的是对自己深沉的温柔与宽恕——对他而言，这就是真正的幸福。 ### [01:42:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=6152s) 知行之间的鸿沟：从“应该做”到渴望去做 当 Steven 询问在面对大众所承受的痛苦时，本期对话是否遗漏了最核心的话题，图登（Gelong Thubten）毫不犹豫地指出：真正的缺失永远在于“去践行”（the doing it）。绝大多数人听完播客、读完冥想书籍或看完教学视频后，都会觉得道理非常美妙，可一旦回归繁忙的现实生活，就彻底抛诸脑后。图登幽默地分享了一个圈内笑话：“所谓佛教徒，定义就是一种要么正在冥想、要么正因为自己没去冥想而深感自责的人。”这与人们对待体育锻炼的心理如出一辙——人人都知道它有益健康，却往往迟迟不迈出那一步。 图登深入分析道，强迫自己去冥想注定是一场徒劳无功的挣扎。一旦冥想沦为待办清单上另一项冷冰冰的“应该做的事”（should），大脑就会本能地排斥它。真正能够激发持久热情的唯一途径，是进行深刻的心理认知重塑：认清冥想能够给予你的，恰恰是你一直以来试图从咖啡、酒精、毒品、性爱或物质刺激中所渴望的一切。无论向外索求什么，人们追逐的终极内核无非是快乐、释放与自由；但外部道路只会让人陷入无休止的匮乏与成瘾之中，唯有向内探索心智，才能真正获得解脱。 人们在追逐成瘾物时往往不知疲倦、精力充沛，图登反问道：“想象一下，如果我们能带着那样的狂热与能量去冥想，生活会变成什么样？” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 欲望转化与冥想动力机制 accDescr: 展示从外部成瘾追逐向内向冥想转变的心智认知重构路径。 subgraph External["外部追逐的死循环"] A["渴求快乐与自由"] --> B["向外索取：药物/酒精/性/刺激"] B --> C["陷入耐受与无休止的匮乏"] end subgraph Internal["向内心智的突破"] D["认知觉醒：核心需求在于内心释放"] --> E["冥想练习：平息内耗"] E --> F["获得真正的解脱与内生宁静"] end C -. "心智反思重塑".-> D ``` - 阻碍修行的最大死穴不是缺乏理解，而是知与行脱节；强加于身的道德义务感只会扼杀行动力。 - 动力转换的关键，在于意识到冥想不是苦行，而是直接满足人类对自由与愉悦底层渴望的终极捷径。 --- ### [01:44:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=6272s) 禅修静修营与佛教在当代的共鸣 谈及如何迈出第一步，Steven 提出自己或许需要参加一次禅修静修营（Meditation Retreat），在有专业导师引领的场域中理清思绪。图登对此非常赞同，并宽慰道，开启练习绝不需要像他当年那样直接闭关四年，哪怕是一个周末、两天、三天或五天的短期体验就足够了。这正是佛教中心存在的意义，而且那里绝不会强迫任何人“在虚线上签字宣誓皈依佛教”——正统佛教对拉人入教毫无兴趣。 在图登看来，佛教在当今世界之所以吸引越来越多的人，恰恰是因为它从不强行拉拢信徒。与此同时，现代社会正深陷普遍的精神危机：人际疏离、孤独感蔓延、无意义感、抑郁症高发以及自杀倾向泛滥，这些困境在年轻男性群体中尤为严峻，其自杀意念与孤独感相关数据甚至比女性更为残酷。人类似乎终于意识到，倾力打造的“镀金牢笼”（gilded cage）——这个极度依赖物质主义与个人主义的体系——正在走向失效，不仅地球资源难以为继，内心的空虚也无可遁形。 面对体系的溃败，一股探索心智的浪潮正在当代文化中兴起。越来越多的人主动寻求心理治疗、专业咨询与冥想禅修，渴望重新掌控自己的意识。图登指出，这正是历史上最令人振奋的转折期：人们开始抛弃外在的幻象，转而向内寻找答案。佛教认为，每个人内心都拥有一尊“沉睡的佛陀”（a sleeping Buddha within），人类拥有无限的觉醒潜能与利他能量，就像一块被厚重泥浆层层包裹的水晶，修行的本质仅仅是将这些泥垢彻底洗净。 --- ### [01:47:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=6430s) 传统提问：如何表达爱与“陪他人坐在泥泞中” 节目录制进入尾声，Steven 揭晓了《CEO日记》的标志性保留环节——由上一位匿名嘉宾给图登留下的问题：“在你的个人生活或职业关系中，你通常通过哪些方式向那些对你重要的人表达爱与感激？” 图登坦诚而谦卑地表示，自己并非每一次都能做得尽善尽美，但他一直在努力做到的一点，就是在身边人经历艰难困苦时，坚定地陪在他们身边。他坦白自己过去常常对别人的痛苦感到恐惧，本能地想要逃跑或封闭内心；但现在的他，就像在冥想中学会主动迎向自身的不适感一样，努力学会在他人身处逆境与煎熬时保持同在，并不带一丝评判。 Steven 深有共鸣地补充道，一位朋友曾将这种陪伴形容为“陪他们坐在泥泞中”（sitting in the mud with them）。这触动了图登的感慨。人们往往怀有自以为是的冲动，急于去纠正问题、给出建议或充当人生的修理工，但真正的关怀与爱从来不是说教，而是放下自负，不加指责地陪伴在痛苦之人身旁，给予对方纯粹的空间与共情。 --- ### [01:48:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=6494s) 明晨的第一场练习：杂念正是带你回来的路标 对谈临近结束，Steven 表达了真挚的感激。他盛赞图登的两本《星期日泰晤士报》畅销著作——《给艰难时代的行者指南：无畏生活的僧侣指南》（*Handbook for Hard Times: A Monk's Guide to Fearless Living*）与《僧侣的幸福指南：21世纪的冥想》（*A Monk's Guide to Happiness: Meditation in the 21st century*）。Steven 感慨，当现代社会的生活方式与种种外部“解药”让人深感失望时，图登传播的佛法智慧为大众指明了另一条路径：真正的答案始终在自我内心之中。Steven 坦言自己彻底被说服，准备正式开启冥想尝试，但他随即问出了新手最现实的担忧：“懂得了这些大道理是一回事，但当我明早真正坐下来面对纷乱的思绪时，我又该怎么办？” 图登给出了全篇最具穿透力的实操指导：当明早坐下来、脑海开始翻江倒海时，千万不要觉得自己失败了。相反，必须清醒地意识到：杂念本身正是让冥想变得强大的基石。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 呼吸与杂念的心智强化循环 accDescr: 展示冥想中思绪飘离到重返呼吸如何锻炼心智力量的闭环。 A["锚定呼吸"] --> B["思绪飘离产生杂念"] B --> C["觉察到走神且不自责"] C --> D["重新带回呼吸"] D --> A ``` 图登强调，练习的核心在于“将注意力重新带回呼吸”（coming back to the breath），如果没有走神，你又从何处回归？那个把你带走的杂念，恰恰创造了让你重新觉察并回归的契机，走神与回归的过程就像在心智健身房举铁，每一次拉回都是一次心智力量的增长。图登最后微笑着鼓励道：“所以，放马过来吧（bring it on），杂念越多越好！”在温暖而鼓舞人心的氛围中，两位对谈者互致谢意，为整场深刻的心灵对话画上了圆满的句号。 ## Notable quotes > [05:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=326s) materially more comfortable than ever and yet emotionally more uncomfortable — Gelong Thubten > [08:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=492s) it falls away just before you get what you want — Gelong Thubten > [24:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=1455s) we are all addicted to our own thoughts — Gelong Thubten > [03:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=234s) Stop taking yourself so seriously — 导师 (Akong Rinpoche) > [42:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=2536s) 冥想是我一生中取得任何成就的最关键要素，其重要性超越了其他任何事物。 — Ray Dalio > [51:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3060s) dropping the story and looking at the feeling — Gelong Thubten > [01:01:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=3706s) Happiness is about being okay with your suffering — Gelong Thubten > [01:32:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5559s) 你就像个瘾君子（junkie），把冥想当成了毒品！ — Choje Akong Rinpoche > [01:38:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=5903s) 不要执迷于银幕上纷乱变化的电影情节，要去向源头——也就是那台放映机（projector）。去改变、转化并修持这台放映机自身。 — Gelong Thubten > [01:42:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=6152s) 所谓佛教徒，定义就是一种要么正在冥想、要么正因为自己没去冥想而深感自责的人。 — Gelong Thubten > [01:48:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y&t=6494s) 所以，放马过来吧（bring it on），杂念越多越好！ — Gelong Thubten ## Mentioned Gelong Thubten, Steven Bartlett, Choje Akong Rinpoche, Tara, Steve Jobs, Ray Dalio, Marc Benioff, Jack Dorsey, Dr. Daniel Lieberman, Lord Byron, Percy Bysshe Shelley, Kagyu Samye Ling, ROKPA International, University of Oxford, University of Liverpool, Bridgewater Associates, Salesforce, Twitter, Block, Shopify, Vivobarefoot, BlackBerry, Handbook for Hard Times: A Monk's Guide to Fearless Living, A Monk's Guide to Happiness: Meditation in the 21st century, Principles, DOAC Circle, The 1% Diary ## Video description From 6 years in isolation to sounding the alarm, Buddhist Gelong Thubten reveals the hidden epidemic no one is talking about with stress, depression, buddhism, meditation, mental health and more. Thubten is one of the UK’s most influential meditation teachers, who spent 6 years in isolated meditation retreats, including one which lasted 4 years. He is also the bestselling author of books such as, ‘Handbook for Hard Times: A Monk's Guide to Fearless Living’. He explains: ◽️ The hidden mental health crisis that’s silently destroying your emotional well-being. ◽️ Why Western culture increases anxiety, depression, and disconnection ◽️ The biggest myths about meditation and how to meditate properly.  ◽️ The real reason your meditation practice isn’t working. ◽️ How screen time and phone addiction are hijacking your brain and inner peace. ◽️ Why rejecting pleasure can lead to lasting connection and clarity. ◽️ How unresolved trauma controls your mind and how mindfulness can free you. — ⏱ Timestamps: 00:00 Intro 02:33 Why Is Thubten's Message More Important Now Than Ever Before? 03:03 Thubten's Concerns About Western Society 03:53 Where Does Life Purpose Come From? 05:17 Is Search for Purpose a Misplaced Pursuit? 06:30 Why Is Western Society Increasingly Unhappy? 08:57 Is It Wrong to Find Meaning in the Pursuit of Goals? 11:40 What Led Thubten to Become a Monk? 13:52 Thubten's Difficult Past and Its Impact on His Mind 18:07 Where Do Negative Internal Voices Originate From? 19:05 Who Influenced Thubten to Go to a Monastery? 19:55 Thubten's Heart Condition 20:50 Key Aspects of Living as a Monk 22:27 What Are the Advantages of Celibacy? 24:24 Is Abstinence Sufficient to Overcome Compulsive Behaviour? 27:07 What Is Buddhism? 29:44 Thubten's Journey of Healing 31:34 What Is Meditation? 36:40 Benefits of Buddhist Practices 41:14 Can a Buddhist Mindset Go Hand in Hand With Effectiveness at Work? 46:46 Ads 48:42 How Does Buddhism Think About Victimhood and Trauma? 51:53 Breaking Free From Suffering 58:18 Can We Run Away From Our Pain? 1:04:51 How to Love Yourself When You Feel Broken 1:05:58 Coping With Grief and Loss 1:10:22 Focusing on the Pain in a Loving Way 1:13:19 The Practice of Forgiveness 1:20:18 Ads 1:22:13 Are We Living in a Culture of Fear? 1:25:08 How to Protect Yourself From Fear 1:27:14 The Gap Between Impulse and Action 1:28:14 Incorporating Meditation Into Your Daily Life 1:31:23 Live Meditation 1:38:23 How Can Meditation Change Your Life 1:41:41 Why Did Thubten Take Vows for Life? 1:42:28 Does Working on Your Mind Ever End? 1:43:18 The Gap Between Knowing and Doing 1:45:19 Is Meditation Retreat a Good Idea to Get Started? 1:45:57 Is Buddhism a Solution to the Current World Problems? 1:47:57 Question From the Previous Guest Thubten: ◽️ Instagram - https://bit.ly/3FOxXlg ◽️ Website - https://bit.ly/45s6Zu0 ◽️ Books - https://bit.ly/4ebqBF9 ◽️ You can purchase Thubten’s book, ‘Handbook for Hard Times: A Monk's Guide to Fearless Living’, here: https://bit.ly/3ZDPwuU ◽️ You can purchase Thubten’s book, ‘A Monk's Guide to Happiness: Meditation in the 21st century’, here: https://bit.ly/45xFE9O The Diary Of A CEO: ◽️ Join DOAC circle here -https://doaccircle.com/ ◽️ The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt ◽️ The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb ◽️ Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt ◽️ Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Shopify - https://shopify.com/bartlett Vivobarefoot - https://vivobarefoot.com/DOAC with code DIARY20 for 20% off [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=vIbLQQ1i56Y)

[5:26] Gelong Thubten: materially more comfortable than ever and yet emotionally more uncomfortable [8:12] Gelong Thubten: it falls away just before you get what you want [24:15] Gelong Thubten: we are all addicted to our own thoughts [3:54] 导师 (Akong Rinpoche): Stop taking yourself so seriously [42:16] Ray Dalio: 冥想是我一生中取得任何成就的最关键要素，其重要性超越了其他任何事物。 [51:00] Gelong Thubten: dropping the story and looking at the feeling [61:46] Gelong Thubten: Happiness is about being okay with your suffering [92:39] Choje Akong Rinpoche: 你就像个瘾君子（junkie），把冥想当成了毒品！ [98:23] Gelong Thubten: 不要执迷于银幕上纷乱变化的电影情节，要去向源头——也就是那台放映机（projector）。去改变、转化并修持这台放映机自身。 [102:32] Gelong Thubten: 所谓佛教徒，定义就是一种要么正在冥想、要么正因为自己没去冥想而深感自责的人。 [108:14] Gelong Thubten: 所以，放马过来吧（bring it on），杂念越多越好！

[11:40] Gelong Thubten: I arrived at the monastery really needing help... I was living in London and New York, trying to become an actor... I basicially made myself ill. I had a very dramatic burnout living in Brooklyn and waking up one morning in my apartment thinking I was having a heart attack. [13:52] You are disgusting. You are no good. You are a failure. [83:38] Gelong Thubten: The deepest addiction we all have is the addiction to our own thoughts... that's really the root of it all is that a wanting thought arises in my mind and then I jump on it. [88:58] Gelong Thubten: Waking up inside your thoughts... that is the definition of meditation. So, you haven't failed at all. You are meditating because what happened was you were with the breath, you got lost, you lost your mind, and then you found your mind again. [36:06] Thubten's mentor: Stop taking yourself so seriously. [40:14] Corporate Executive: Please don't make them too relaxed. [42:16] Ray Dalio: the biggest ingredient of whatever success I've had. [42:16] Marc Benioff: the most important thing I do each day. [42:16] Jack Dorsey: nothing more impactful on my work than meditation. [54:32] Gelong Thubten: Don't give something up when you're freaking out because you will regret it. If you're going to give this thing up, give it up from a place of clarity... Don't give up because you're having a panic attack. [60:00] Gelong Thubten: At night I would just be tossing and turning and feeling like I was on fire, because I had a mixture of grief, anger, despair... And then at some point it kicked in, the meditation... I just had to lie there and send love into the flames in me. [72:32] Gelong Thubten: In Buddhism, there's a teaching that says it's like holding on to a piece of hot metal or holding a hot coal in your hand and it's just burning you. [91:23] Gelong Thubten: He said, 'It's nothing to do with the meditation... You're a junkie. You're using your meditation like a drug... You're sitting there waiting for it to come on, waiting for it to give you a high.' [99:35] Gelong Thubten: I'm still a mess, but I'm okay with being a mess. That is a huge difference... I still get stressed, I still get upset, but I'm really gentle with myself in a way that I never knew how to be. [107:18] Gelong Thubten: Just remind yourself that the thoughts actually make your meditation stronger. Because if coming back to the breath is what you're trying to do, you have to have somewhere to come back from. The thought that took you away is exactly what brings you back. So bring it on. The more thoughts, the better.

[0:00] We're all at the mercy of our own minds. [0:02] But the problem is is that in modern [0:03] life, we're constantly made to feel [0:05] we're not good enough. Something's [0:06] always missing, and I will be happy or [0:08] unhappy if this or that happens to me. [0:10] So, we become prisoners of life. And you [0:13] learn this the hard way. Yes. When I was [0:14] in a long retreat, cut off from the [0:16] world for 4 years. And memories were [0:18] coming up from the past. It would build [0:19] into horrific amounts of depression, [0:21] anxiety, pain. And I jumped over the [0:23] wall and tried to escape because of what [0:25] happened to me when I was 14. Are you [0:27] comfortable talking about this? Gerong [0:30] Tupton is a Buddhist monk who spent over [0:32] 30 years helping Hollywood stars, CEOs, [0:34] and corporations. Stay in control within [0:37] a world overloaded with stress, [0:39] addiction, anxiety, and burnout. Here we [0:42] go. I became controlled by distraction, [0:44] controlled by negative thinking. What is [0:46] life going to do to me next? How will I [0:48] handle it? And things only changed when [0:50] I hit rock bottom. I had spent so much [0:53] effort trying to push that suffering [0:55] away because it's so disgusting and so [0:57] shameful, but it was just making it [0:58] worse. So many of us run away from pain [1:00] though. But the reality is you can run [1:03] to the end of the earth and that thing [1:05] that has been tormenting you will always [1:06] trip you up. And so I went back into [1:08] that retreat knowing the methods are [1:10] there. I just need to know how to use [1:12] them and I could learn to conquer this. [1:14] And that's where meditation comes in. Do [1:16] you think you can teach me? Because I [1:18] very much feel like I'm on the receiving [1:19] end of life. First of all, chuck all [1:21] those things away. There's a lot of [1:22] spiritual tat, isn't there? I mean, I [1:25] said it. I actually hated meditation [1:28] when I first did it because there's a [1:29] lot of misconceptions and actually all [1:31] you're doing is these three things to be [1:33] less controlled by negative thinking. [1:35] And the beauty of this is that they can [1:36] show in brain scans, there'll be visible [1:38] changes in your brain. So, let's try [1:40] this. [1:42] [Music] [1:46] Galong Tupton, [1:48] why is your work more important now than [1:52] ever before? Why is your message more [1:54] important now than ever before? I think [1:56] uh because we're now living in times [1:59] where we need meditation more than ever [2:02] because of the the speeding up of life [2:04] obviously with technology and the way we [2:06] live and also I think because meditation [2:08] has become more widespread there are [2:10] loads of misconceptions about it. So I [2:13] do try to put some effort into kind of [2:16] clarifying some of those misconceptions. [2:18] When you look out into the world [2:20] and you perform your sort of own [2:22] analysis on what the world, the western [2:25] world is getting right and getting [2:26] wrong. What are some of your sort of big [2:28] picture feelings, thoughts and concerns? [2:31] Well, the way we are all buried in our [2:33] phones is quite something, isn't it? And [2:35] the way we interact with information has [2:37] changed so much. So we we are kind of [2:41] bombarded or invaded by constant flow of [2:44] information which has a lot of [2:45] persuasive undercurrents to it. And this [2:49] is affecting our stress levels and also [2:51] affecting our confidence levels. We're [2:54] constantly made to feel we're [2:55] something's missing. Something's always [2:57] missing. We're not good enough. If you [2:59] get this, you'll be okay. I if if and [3:02] when this happens to you, then and only [3:04] then can you be happy. So we've kind of [3:05] lost our power. We talked a little bit [3:08] about the word purpose as well. What is [3:10] your perspective on the state of human [3:13] purposefulness? [3:15] So I think um this issue around purpose [3:19] I think it it is connected to the [3:23] breakdown of religion [3:25] in that I would say well I think we'd [3:28] all say that religion used to be very [3:30] much the center of the table and it sort [3:32] of gave everybody their a sense of their [3:34] place in the universe and the question [3:37] of purpose was never such an issue [3:40] because everything was uh in context [3:44] according to one's religious belief and [3:46] of course now we're in a post-religious [3:47] culture and it's much more about the [3:50] individual and there are good things [3:52] about that of course but what happens [3:54] then is we become very obsessed with our [3:56] purpose and the word purpose itself [3:58] suggests I want something I want what do [4:01] I want and in in Buddhism we look at [4:05] that wanting mind and see how insatiable [4:08] it is and how the more you want the more [4:11] you're going to want and so from a [4:14] Buddhist perspect perspective. We're all [4:16] looking for purpose, but maybe [4:18] externally because we get what we want [4:21] and then want something else. [4:23] And maybe what we're actually looking [4:26] for is something deeper within, but we [4:28] don't know how to access it. So, is it [4:32] wrong then to be in search of purpose? [4:35] Is it a misguided pursuit? [4:38] No, I wouldn't say that. But I would say [4:40] what's misguided for us is that we are [4:44] obsessed with the idea that happiness [4:47] comes from the outside [4:50] and on the other side of the coin [4:51] suffering too. So I will be happy if I [4:54] get this or get that or this situation [4:57] or that situation and I will be unhappy [4:59] if this or that happens to me. So we [5:03] become at the sort of receiving end of [5:05] life. What life is going to do to me [5:08] next. how will I handle it? So, so [5:10] there's there's not much strength there. [5:13] And I think the message of meditation is [5:16] that you become your own purpose and you [5:18] you become the generator of your own [5:21] experiences because you learn how to [5:24] take hold of your own mind. In this [5:26] conversation, do you think you can teach [5:27] me how to do that? Because I very much [5:28] feel like in my life I'm on the [5:30] receiving end of life. Well, I'd love to [5:32] show you how or maybe help you to see [5:35] that meditation is easier than you [5:38] thought or more more applicable to daily [5:41] situations than you thought. When we [5:44] think about the state of well-being in [5:46] the western world, everybody knows these [5:48] stats around suicidality. Um, if we look [5:51] at the US for example, they've slipped [5:54] further in the unhappiness rankings than [5:57] ever before. The US fell to 24th place [6:00] in 2025 in global happiness rankings. In [6:04] 2011, the US had been 11th place and now [6:06] they're 24th. And the UK followed the [6:09] same pattern. The UK dropped to 23rd in [6:11] global happiness rankings, which is its [6:14] lowest position in a long time. But then [6:17] more sort of horrifically, the suicide [6:19] numbers in the UK, the US are [6:22] tremendously alarming. In the UK, [6:24] suicide has reached its highest level in [6:27] many many decades. [6:29] Something is going on here. Absolutely. [6:32] So, so we we have developed the most, [6:35] you know, materially comfortable [6:38] culture in history. We are materially [6:41] more comfortable than ever and yet [6:42] emotionally more uncomfortable. So, [6:45] something hasn't added up. you know [6:47] we've created a comfortable to a certain [6:49] extent out outer world for oursel and we [6:52] can achieve high levels of material [6:54] comfort and somehow the more of that we [6:57] have the more emotionally uncomfortable [6:59] and I think this is all to do with the [7:01] mechanisms of desire so so when we are [7:04] in a culture that is constantly [7:06] promising us the next piece of enjoyment [7:08] the next hit the next bars the next [7:11] thing we're caught in a sort of cycle of [7:13] wanting more I I I was described this [7:17] the the search for happiness that the [7:18] problem in that is the search itself [7:21] because s searching is a habit that will [7:24] lead to more searching. So we're always [7:26] looking for the next thing. So we get [7:29] what we want. Not always but sometimes. [7:32] And then very soon we want something [7:33] else. So the more we're wanting the more [7:36] we're feeling we don't have. So we end [7:38] up possibly with a lot but feeling quite [7:40] empty inside. And then we're back to [7:43] this question. What is my purpose? [7:44] What's it all for? I've I I've reached [7:47] the the I've reached the the goal I [7:49] wanted to reach, but I still feel empty. [7:51] I still feel something is missing. We're [7:52] told something is missing all the time. [7:55] Because to keep a consumer message [7:58] going, you have to tell people they're [7:59] lacking in something. And the insistency [8:02] with which that message is fed to us [8:05] through our phones basically and through [8:07] through the the media that we consume is [8:10] going to affect us. I think 90% of [8:13] people listening right now would say [8:14] that their meaning in life comes from [8:16] the pursuit of something, the journey [8:18] towards something. It might not come [8:20] from the attainment of it, being [8:21] successful, being on the podium, but [8:23] they would say that the the meaning they [8:26] experience, the joy, the thing that gets [8:28] them out of bed is in the pursuit of [8:29] something, whether it's building a [8:31] business or, I don't know, becoming an [8:33] athlete or building a charity. [8:36] Are they misguided in that thought? No, [8:39] it's just that we we we could look [8:40] deeper into our own internal psychology [8:43] and see how well the the word pursuit is [8:46] everything. So, we're always in pursuit [8:48] of something. And the the the the [8:51] chemistry of of our body in the state of [8:54] pursuit is that chemical dopamine. The [8:57] interesting thing about dopamine is it [8:58] falls away just before you get what you [9:00] want. So, so the the chase is much more [9:03] exciting than the having or the getting. [9:05] And so we're in locked into this [9:07] constant chase and what is the next [9:10] thing? When will I get the next thing? [9:12] And I think the the reason why we feel [9:15] so sort of empty or disappointed is [9:17] because what we get is never enough. And [9:20] meditation comes into this conversation [9:23] to to show us that actually what we were [9:26] looking for [9:28] was already there inside. [9:31] That's the key point. [9:33] What were we looking for? We were [9:35] looking for freedom. [9:38] If you if you think about how it feels [9:42] when you get what you want, [9:44] you know, there's the chasing, the [9:46] wanting, and then there's the getting. [9:49] There's a kind of relief, isn't there? [9:51] It it's it's a feeling of, oh, the [9:53] wanting's gone away. It's like hunger. [9:55] You feel hungry, you eat a sandwich, the [9:56] hunger's gone away. I mean that's a [9:58] metaphor for everything and that you [10:00] when you get what you want there's this [10:02] relief the the the the the wanting the [10:05] the the the needy feeling the oh when [10:07] will I get it has gone and there's a [10:09] relief so actually what what we're well [10:12] momentarily and then it kicks in again [10:14] we're looking for the next thing but [10:15] what we're looking for is the absence of [10:16] wanting [10:18] that's the the happiness we achieve when [10:20] we get what we want is a kind of freedom [10:22] from wanting so the problem is is that [10:25] we're caught in a cycle where we then [10:26] just want something else. [10:29] So, I'm not suggesting let's all go and [10:31] sit on a mountaintop and meditate and [10:32] not have lives and not have careers. Not [10:34] at all. I'm simply suggesting that we've [10:37] put our focus very strongly on material [10:40] things. And I think there needs to be [10:42] also a focus on the mind and I think [10:44] that's how we can learn to free [10:46] ourselves. [10:48] You learned this the hard way through [10:50] your own experiences. [10:52] Can you talk to me about how you learned [10:53] these lessons? Well, I definitely became [10:57] a monk through extreme suffering. I [11:00] wouldn't describe myself as having been [11:03] a kind of, you know, a spiritual seeker [11:04] and I went to a monastery with a kind of [11:08] open glowing heart wanting to find the [11:10] answers. I went to a monastery in a [11:12] completely broken state because I had [11:14] been living uh in this kind of ambition [11:19] cycle wanting wanting wanting and and [11:22] really uh not looking after myself. I [11:25] had a very uh self-loathing and unhappy [11:28] mind, a lot of depression, a lot of [11:30] anxiety and [11:32] I was um I went to that monastery [11:35] feeling completely at rock bottom. And I [11:38] I didn't go to a monastery to live there [11:40] forever. I just kind of dipped my toe [11:42] in. But you know, I stayed. If I was a [11:45] fly on the wall in your life on that day [11:47] when you showed up at that monastery, [11:49] what would I have seen? So I was very [11:52] ill and I arrived at the monastery um [11:56] really needing help. So I was I was [11:58] living in London and New York. I was [12:01] trying to become an actor. My mother's [12:02] an actor, so I sort of wanted to follow [12:04] in her footsteps. and I got into a [12:06] really kind of dangerous kind of party [12:09] lifestyle, really wild and burning the [12:11] candle at both ends. I basically made [12:14] myself ill. I had a very very dramatic [12:17] burnout living in Brooklyn and waking up [12:21] one morning in my apartment thinking I [12:23] was having a heart attack. Um, I went to [12:25] I had didn't have medical insurance, but [12:27] I managed to find some kind of like [12:29] cheap ECG place and they checked my [12:32] heart out and they said, "You've you [12:33] have a heart condition. what have you [12:35] been doing? And you know, I really was [12:38] had to stop in my tracks and I was very [12:41] very ill after that for a few months. [12:43] What age was this? 21. Wow. And during [12:47] that time of being horrendously ill. I [12:50] had to question everything I was doing [12:52] with my life. But that illness is a [12:54] symptom. It's a symptom of of unhealthy [12:58] living, but also an unhealthy [13:00] relationship with my own mind. And where [13:02] did that unhealthy relationship with [13:03] your own mind stem from? So I think [13:06] things that that happened in my early [13:09] life uh traumatic things, difficult [13:12] things uh and then me not knowing how to [13:15] deal with those and just bottling them [13:17] up and pushing through, pushing forward [13:20] and not looking at myself. I had this [13:23] very sort of escapist way about myself. [13:25] I think that's what all the partying was [13:27] about to kind of get out of my head. And [13:30] so, so when I had that burnout, I think [13:33] it was a combination of physical stress [13:35] and mental stress that just exploded [13:38] very, very suddenly, literally [13:40] overnight. [13:41] Did you have an abusive childhood? [13:44] Because I was I was reading some of the [13:45] things that you had said and it [13:46] suggested to me that there was things [13:48] that happened when you were young that [13:50] left imprints on you that you had to [13:53] work through. Yeah. Yeah. I I would say [13:56] things happened in my teens that were [14:00] troubling. You know, when I was uh when [14:02] I was quite like 13, 14, I started to [14:06] run with a much older crowd. So, I had a [14:09] kind of double life. I was I was at [14:11] school and very studious and very quiet. [14:13] And then outside school, I was in a rock [14:16] band with much older people. Um, when I [14:19] was 14, I started to actually work as a [14:22] jazz pianist in wine bars across London, [14:25] pretending I was 21. And the the people [14:28] I was running with at that time were [14:30] much much older than me. And um, yeah, [14:34] there there there were some situations [14:36] where the relationships turned, I would [14:39] say, abusive. And I I would say I was a [14:41] victim of at the time maybe I thought I [14:44] knew knew what I was doing, but looking [14:45] back, definitely not. And I think that [14:48] left imprints and I think it made me um [14:51] frightened of myself and frightened of [14:53] other people. Are you comfortable [14:55] talking about this? Yeah. Was this [14:58] sexual abuse? Yeah. From from uh from [15:02] one of the people I was in in a band [15:04] with. Yeah. [15:06] And when you think when you sort of [15:07] trace the steps of the behavior that you [15:09] then saw in your early 20s, the sort of [15:11] escapist behavior, the sort of [15:12] self-medicating behavior, is is that the [15:15] cont is that where that originated from [15:18] the sort of processing of that and the [15:20] dealing with those? It's really hard to [15:22] make a very specific direct connection, [15:24] isn't it? And that's what we always want [15:25] to do. We want to say this happened [15:26] because of this and there's this, you [15:29] know, this happened and therefore I went [15:31] off the rails. In a way that's too easy [15:34] because I think there's a mixture of [15:35] many many elements that can send one off [15:37] the rails. You know my parents are are [15:40] incredibly loving people. I mean they [15:41] really loved me and brought me up very [15:43] well but they they split up very very [15:45] suddenly when I was 17. My my dad [15:48] literally ran off with one of my mom's [15:50] friends and it was a a very huge [15:52] explosion in the family and we were all [15:54] very broken by it. And so there are many [15:57] many things, many factors that came [16:00] together in my teenage years that I [16:01] think sent me off the rails. I got into [16:04] uh Oxford University and that was a big [16:07] prestigious thing, but I fell apart in [16:09] Oxford. I started to get horrendously [16:11] depressed and I actually got expelled. [16:14] It's actually quite hard to get expelled [16:16] from Oxford. I didn't I've never met [16:17] anyone that got expelled. Exactly. My [16:19] mother was delighted. She said, "Oh, [16:20] that's like Lord Byron, Shel, those are, [16:22] you know, very hard to get thrown out of [16:25] Oxford. you have to, you know, do [16:26] something pretty horrendous. But I think [16:28] in my case, they they threw me out [16:31] because I was just not functional. And [16:34] that then just led to my demise. And [16:37] then on the one hand, I was started [16:39] acting and being in plays and and having [16:41] this kind of um almost like a glamorous [16:44] persona and on the other hand crumbling [16:46] inside. I had this incredibly persistent [16:49] monologue of self- disgust, [16:52] you know, like like a voice in the head [16:54] that says, "You are disgusting. [16:56] You are no good. You are a failure." I [16:59] used to call it my devil voice, but but [17:01] it it it's obviously part of me. And and [17:04] that's something that later on when I [17:06] started to do retreats became incredibly [17:08] loud in my head. And I had to work hard [17:12] on meditation to help not to get rid of [17:15] that but to integrate it and and learn [17:18] to be at peace with it. It's definitely, [17:20] you know, it's gone away now. Where does [17:22] that voice originate from? You're not [17:24] the first person that I've sat with here [17:25] who's talked to me about a similar voice [17:27] in their mind. And I'm wondering is that [17:29] a is that something from we inherit from [17:31] our environment? uh something that [17:33] happens, a culmination of things that [17:34] happen. Is it genetic or is it all of [17:36] the above? It's many things because [17:38] that's very specific. It's many things. [17:40] And it's I think in my case it was [17:44] because I became very good at [17:46] suppressing my suffering because I [17:50] became very proficient at pushing things [17:53] down and just going to as many parties [17:55] as possible and and trying not to [17:58] suffer. I think the when you push [18:00] something down, the kind of volcano [18:02] effect happens and then this sort of [18:04] angry voice comes up. This this this uh [18:08] pressure leads to a kind of backlash [18:10] inside yourself and it's an internalized [18:14] um anger that also is is fed to us from [18:17] our environment. Absolutely. [18:19] So you arrive at the monastery. Yeah. [18:23] Who told you to go to a monastery? So, [18:25] my oldest childhood friend, Tara, uh we [18:28] grew up together and um when I was [18:33] completely falling apart with this heart [18:34] condition at 21, she basically scooped [18:36] me up and took me to the monastery. [18:38] She's the one who told me. She said, [18:41] "Oh, there's a monastery in Scotland [18:44] which it's called Samuel Ling. It's a [18:46] Tibetan Buddhist monastery, and for the [18:48] first time ever, they've opened their [18:50] doors to people who wanting to be monks [18:53] for a year. [18:54] one year and so she she said let's go [18:58] and do it this could she wanted to do it [19:00] too but she said this could really help [19:02] you so she basically pretty much carried [19:05] me there what were you saying to her [19:07] when she asked you how you were doing or [19:08] what your symptoms were I was lying in [19:10] bed with with horrendous heart [19:12] palpitations and any move I made my body [19:15] would be bathed in sweat I mean on we we [19:17] were in California because I got sick in [19:19] New York I managed to get to California [19:21] where my mother was living and Tara was [19:23] there and they looked after me. And then [19:25] literally flying back to the UK, I had [19:27] to lie down on the plane. She was almost [19:29] carrying me. It was really really heavy. [19:31] But she she said, "Look, this place [19:33] could help you. It's just a year. It's [19:36] just a year out of your life." I I I I [19:38] thought, "Okay, I'm going to do that and [19:39] then I'll go back to New York." I almost [19:41] sublet my apartment in New York, but I [19:43] didn't in the end. But there there [19:45] definitely was a feeling in me of, [19:46] "Okay, I'm going to go to this Buddhist [19:48] retreat, get myself straightened out, [19:50] and then go back to what I was doing [19:52] before. [19:53] So, it didn't feel too outrageous [19:55] because it was only a year. Of course, [19:57] it wasn't a year. This is 30 years [20:00] later. I'm still there. Wow. [20:04] And to give people like me who don't [20:06] understand what happens in a monastery a [20:08] picture into the what I would describe [20:11] as incredible dedication and sacrifice [20:14] that you've gone through over those 30 [20:16] years. Can you can you share some of the [20:19] practical things that you've done in [20:21] those 30 years that most people would [20:23] think of as being just outrageous? But [20:26] do you know what? You say sacrifice, but [20:27] to me it didn't feel like a sacrifice. [20:29] It felt like immediate relief because I [20:32] Yes. When you become a monk, you you [20:34] take vows to give up things, certain [20:36] things, but the things I was giving up [20:38] were the things that made me ill. So you [20:40] you know you're giving up uh intoxicants [20:42] and you become celibate and you uh I [20:46] mean the there are also kind of moral [20:47] vows such as you give up telling lies [20:49] and stealing and harming others. These [20:52] are all you know good principles to [20:53] follow. But I suppose the two major [20:56] things are no intoxicants and celibacy. [20:59] And to me that was such a relief to to [21:01] just kind of give all of that up and be [21:03] in almost like kind of like a rehab [21:05] situation. And but I I have to emphasize [21:09] it didn't feel too heavy because I [21:12] thought it was only going to be for a [21:13] year. So celibacy is sex giving them [21:16] sex. Yes. Yeah. And and what I found is [21:19] that you actually develop stronger [21:20] relationships. So people often think [21:23] monks must be very lonely. But what I [21:25] found was that then you were in a [21:26] community of people where the the sexual [21:30] um chemistry is off the agenda. So you [21:32] start having friendships that really are [21:35] so heartbased and you meet lots of [21:38] people who are on the same path as you. [21:39] So I didn't feel lonely at all. What is [21:42] it about sex that is [21:45] maybe a distraction, but what is it that [21:47] puts on the list? It's not it's not to [21:49] say that that sex is wrong or evil or [21:52] bad. It's not a sort of uh weird sort of [21:54] moralistic anti-ex thing at all. It's [21:56] simply about where you're putting your [21:58] focus. So when you're when you're a [22:00] monk, you're giving up family life, [22:03] you're giving up sexual relationships, [22:04] you're giving up romance, you're giving [22:06] up all of that so that you can focus [22:09] very intent intensely on meditation [22:12] practice with the purpose that you can [22:15] eventually help others. It's not a [22:16] selfish thing is you're doing this so [22:17] that you can be of more benefit to [22:20] others. But you want no distractions. [22:22] And also you you at a deeper level, you [22:25] want to start to experiment with what [22:29] happens when you don't immediately run [22:33] after a desire. [22:35] You start to experiment with trying to [22:39] not suppress your desire because that's [22:41] incredibly unhealthy, but watch your [22:44] desire and observe it and find out that [22:48] you are more than your desire. [22:50] And so celibacy is an amazing [22:54] environment to start doing that work. [22:57] And that also means no masturbation and [22:59] those kinds of things. Yeah. I mean it's [23:00] it's really about working with desire [23:03] rather than just when I say working with [23:06] I mean ex observing it and learning ways [23:10] to transform it rather than just giving [23:13] into it or suppressing it and [23:17] I wouldn't say celibacy is for everybody [23:19] but it suits a certain type of person. [23:22] Mhm. And you know in Buddhism in general [23:24] there are in in in [23:27] the UK or America there's you know [23:28] thousands and thousands and thousands of [23:30] Buddhists but maybe a small handful of [23:32] monks who become celibate. It's a very [23:34] specific particular way to practice [23:36] Buddhism. It's not the only way. I'm [23:38] inquiring about this subject because [23:40] it's actually because of a conversation [23:41] I was having with a really good friend [23:42] of mine over New Year's who's had some [23:44] troubles in his life. um has struggled [23:47] in relationships, has struggled [23:49] professionally, has also struggled a [23:50] little bit with purpose and meaning and [23:52] has now sort of started to investigate [23:54] religion. And one of the things he said [23:55] to me because there's a particular [23:58] strangle hold that his sexual desires [24:00] has over him is that he was thinking [24:02] about abstaining from masturbation and [24:04] sex just for a short period of time. And [24:07] I think actually the reason for that is [24:09] kind of what you've described there, [24:10] which is just to try and separate get [24:12] back control from desire. He'll need to [24:15] meditate [24:17] because just abstaining from the thing [24:20] you want to the thing you're desperate [24:22] to do and you're abstaining almost like [24:24] locking yourself in a cage and saying I [24:27] won't I won't do that thing then what [24:30] are you replacing it with or so so for [24:34] example when I work in you know I often [24:36] teach meditation in drug rehab centers I [24:39] talk a lot about how okay yes you've had [24:41] to give up the drug that was making you [24:43] ill. But that's not the whole story. The [24:46] the rest of the story is what are you [24:49] going to do about the mind that is [24:50] addicted to that substance and how are [24:53] you going to resolve that? How are you [24:54] going to fill the the hole inside that [24:57] was craving something? Okay. So, with [25:00] the meditation, you're not just giving [25:02] up something. You're learning to fill [25:05] your fill your own spirit with something [25:08] more positive for yourself almost to [25:10] heal from the thing that was had the [25:12] desire. Yeah. Yeah. Desire is such an [25:14] interesting thing because it's we think [25:16] we want something. But what's going on [25:18] under the desire is a feeling of lack, a [25:20] feeling of hopelessness, a feeling I [25:22] don't have. There's something missing. [25:25] And so meditation is about filling that [25:29] with with light and with with love. You [25:32] know, the deepest addiction we all have [25:33] is the addiction to our own thoughts. [25:37] that that's the that's really the root [25:39] of it all is that a wanting thought [25:41] arises in the my mind and then I jump on [25:45] it and I want to get something to kind [25:48] of alleviate that. But it's that [25:50] internal attachment. Buddhism talks a [25:52] lot about non-attachment and I think [25:55] this is widely misunderstood. People [25:56] think it means you're supposed to be, [25:58] you know, detached and have no friends [26:00] and be unattached. It doesn't mean that [26:02] at all. It means how we're so attached [26:06] to our thoughts and our emotions and [26:08] they get into the driving seat and send [26:10] our life in all kinds of directions we [26:12] don't want it to go in. How do we learn [26:14] to transform that inner attachment to [26:17] the thought itself? And that's obviously [26:18] where meditation comes in. [26:21] Let's talk about Buddhism then. So I [26:23] said to you before we started recording [26:24] that in the last sort of 12 months or so [26:26] I've got really interested in Buddhism. [26:27] I uh started reading some books about [26:29] Buddhism and I find it to be most [26:32] aligned with this sounds like a strange [26:35] thing to say but I'm gonna say it anyway [26:37] with almost like the medication that I [26:39] need. [26:41] And I know it's not a medication but but [26:43] it is a deep medicine. It's a medicine. [26:45] It's a science to me. It's not so much a [26:49] religion. It is more of a medicine or a [26:51] science. Yeah. I've struggled with the [26:54] religions. I I was Christian growing up, [26:56] but I've struggled with like deities and [26:58] gods and these kinds of things because [27:00] there's like 5,000 different gods that [27:02] through history, so I don't really know [27:03] which one's real and there's lots of [27:04] books and I'm still on that journey, but [27:06] when I found Buddhism, it wasn't framed [27:08] like the other religions. I thought it [27:10] was much more compelling. What is [27:12] Buddhism? Can you tell me where it's [27:14] come from? Is it a religion? Is there a [27:16] god? Do I have to worship? Do I go to [27:18] hell, heaven? There's there's nothing to [27:20] worship at all. Buddhism is a path to to [27:24] um inner internal understanding. The [27:26] word Buddha means awake. And yes, [27:28] Buddhism has a his history in that there [27:31] was somebody called the Buddha in India [27:33] 2,500 years ago who attained awakening [27:36] and gave teachings and Buddhism you [27:39] could call it that has come from there. [27:41] But actually this word Buddhism is a [27:43] modern word ism. It's a modern word. [27:45] Well, in the original languages of [27:47] Buddhism such as Sanskrit and Tibetan, [27:50] you find terms that are so different [27:53] from religion. You find terms such as [27:56] the science of awareness or the the um [28:00] the examination of awakening, the inner [28:03] inner awareness. It's a path of mental [28:06] discovery. It's a science. So, it's not [28:09] a religion per se. Technically, it is. [28:11] If you define a religion as a group [28:13] spiritual purpose and there are [28:15] monasteries, there are organizationals [28:17] within Buddhism. But it also defies most [28:20] categorizations around religion- [28:25] because it doesn't believe in a creator. [28:27] It doesn't believe in somebody to [28:29] worship. It it's really about the power [28:31] of your own mind. And is there a hell [28:34] and a heaven in Buddhism? They talk [28:36] about hell and heaven as um uh states of [28:39] mind. They talk about everything as a [28:41] state of mind. They say this is a state [28:42] of mind. Buddhism is very much about [28:44] exploring the the fabric of reality. Th [28:47] this table, this body, this this [28:50] so-called self, ideas of hell, heaven, [28:53] they say these are all mental [28:54] experiences. Everything is mind [28:56] according to Buddhism. [28:58] So you get to the monastery. Yeah. [29:02] Talk to me about your journey of [29:04] healing. [29:06] So I was quite ill for a while in the [29:08] monastery and they kind of left me [29:09] alone. They they let me rest a lot. I [29:11] did little light little bits of light [29:13] work around the monastery. Started to [29:16] meditate. Um [29:19] you know I I actually hated meditation [29:21] when I first did it. This was a problem. [29:25] You know I I believed in it. I grew up [29:28] in a Buddhist family. There's been this [29:29] kind of faith in Buddhism as I grew up. [29:32] But I never actually did anything. I [29:33] never I never meditated. Then I get to a [29:36] monastery, I become a monk and read the [29:40] small print. You know, you got to [29:42] meditate. And I hated it. I really [29:45] really hated it. And I thought, oh, what [29:48] am I going to do? I really don't enjoy [29:49] this at all. I find it an enormous [29:52] struggle. So I struggled a lot with [29:54] meditation in those early days, days, [29:56] weeks, months even. Why did you hate it? [29:59] I hated it because [30:02] I was doing it in a way that was making [30:05] me more stressed. [30:07] I would sit down. I I thought that [30:10] meditation is about clearing the mind. [30:13] I'd heard this phrase, clear your mind. [30:15] I thought that's what you do. So, I sat [30:17] there trying to clear my mind. And the [30:20] more I tried to clear my mind, the [30:22] louder it was was shouting. [30:25] And that particularly that negative [30:27] voice I told you about that you are no [30:29] good, you're rubbish, you're you're [30:31] awful, you'll fail. That became louder [30:33] and louder. And so the meditation became [30:36] incredibly stressful because I thought I [30:37] I can't do this. I can't I can't get get [30:40] rid of my thoughts. Of course, now since [30:42] now I've discovered it's nothing to do [30:44] with clearing the mind. But because I [30:46] thought it was, I struggled enormously. [30:48] What is it then? It's nothing to do with [30:50] clearing the mind. It's not about [30:52] putting yourself in an unconscious state [30:54] at all. It's about working with your [30:56] mind. So, it's about learning how to be [31:00] less [31:02] controlled by your mind, [31:04] but it's not about getting rid of the [31:06] thoughts. In fact, the thoughts are [31:07] quite helpful. [31:10] You know, they actually help you to [31:12] meditate. You see, what I was doing in [31:14] those early days was I thought, okay, [31:16] just sit down and just push everything [31:20] away and go into the kind of zen state. [31:23] And of course, that's just like [31:25] suppression, isn't it? You're just [31:26] trying to suppress. You're trying to [31:28] push. [31:30] It's like it's like trying to get a [31:31] small child to sit still in in their [31:33] high chair while you're feeding them. [31:35] They're going to, you know, they're [31:36] going to want to move around. So, it's [31:39] not about that pushing away of thoughts. [31:42] I mean, you've got to ask yourself if if [31:44] that was the aim, well, why why would it [31:46] be the aim? Imagine if you could clear [31:48] your mind. [31:50] So, what? You have 10 minutes of just [31:52] being blank [31:54] and then you carry on with your day. [31:57] Where's the Where's the journey? What [32:00] What journey is that? You just passed [32:02] out on the floor for 10 minutes. Might [32:03] as well as sleep or something. Yeah. [32:05] Yeah. And I can fully understand that if [32:07] if you're if you're really stirred up [32:11] and miserable and stressed, the idea of [32:13] 10 minutes of switching it off would be [32:15] great. But it's not the solution. It [32:18] doesn't work. what is the solution? So, [32:20] so it is definitely about changing your [32:22] relationship with your thoughts. So, [32:26] okay. So, a typical meditation practice [32:28] is you sit and you focus on your [32:31] breathing. It's it's different from [32:33] breath work. You're not breathing in a [32:36] particular way. You're not trying to [32:37] breathe slowly, deeply, or anything. [32:38] You're just breathing normally. You [32:41] know, just let the breath do its own [32:42] thing and you're focused on it. [32:45] So on paper that sounds really clear and [32:48] clean and simple. Focus on your breath. [32:50] The reality is it's really messy because [32:54] you focus on your breath and within a [32:56] few seconds you're thinking about [32:57] shopping lists or food or sex or [33:00] anything. You know the mind just goes. [33:03] That's when the work starts because at [33:06] some point you realize your mind has [33:07] wondered. [33:09] Okay. That's when many people think they [33:11] failed. You know they were they were [33:13] meditating. and they were with the [33:14] breath and then they realize they're [33:15] thinking about emails they need to write [33:17] or shopping or whatever and then they [33:20] think, "Oh, I'm I'm a failure." And they [33:22] very angrily bring themselves back to [33:23] the breath. That's just going to make [33:25] you more stressed [33:27] because you're actually training in in [33:29] feeling like a failure. You know what I [33:31] mean? So, so I can relate. I mean, it [33:33] takes me 7 seconds to drift off when I'm [33:35] trying to meditate. So, it's not that at [33:36] all. It it's that you you're with the [33:39] breath [33:41] and then your mind wanders. It's not [33:43] even that you see your mind wandering. [33:44] You kind of find out afterwards, don't [33:46] you? It's not It's not like I'm with the [33:48] breath and I can see my mind step away [33:51] from the breath and then go to a [33:52] thought. It's more that I'm with my [33:54] breath. I pass out and I wake up the [33:56] other side of town. Yeah, that is the [33:58] meditation. Waking up inside your [34:01] thoughts. That is the definition of [34:03] meditation. So, you haven't failed at [34:05] all. You are meditating because what [34:07] happened was you were with the breath [34:09] you got lost you lost your mind and then [34:12] you found your mind again because you're [34:14] back you suddenly realize oh where was I [34:16] am supposed to be meditating so that is [34:18] meditation you're back with your [34:20] awareness and then you gently bring [34:22] yourself back to the breath and actually [34:25] all you're doing is those three things [34:26] throughout the session either you're [34:28] with the breath or you're noticing that [34:30] you got lost or you're returning [34:34] and it's that that returning [34:37] that makes you strong. [34:39] Every time you return to the breath, you [34:41] you are making a very powerful decision. [34:44] That's the attachment or the addiction [34:45] to the thoughts. The mind was lost in [34:47] those thoughts and you are recapturing [34:49] your attention and bringing it back. So, [34:51] you are choosing where to send your [34:54] mind. [34:56] And if you do this like an exercise, [34:58] almost like going to the gym and getting [35:00] strong day after day, week after week, [35:03] you you're you're teaching yourself how [35:05] to choose to be happy and how to choose [35:08] not to suffer. [35:10] So it such a simple technique on paper, [35:13] you know, focus on your breath, come [35:15] back when you get lost, [35:18] is actually [35:20] profoundly transformative [35:23] psychologically [35:25] because I think most people listening to [35:26] this assume that they're kind of [35:28] strapped to their thoughts and their [35:30] thoughts are the car driving wherever it [35:32] wants to go and we're just strapped to [35:33] the back of it, our ankles tied to the [35:35] back of it with a piece of rope. Yeah. [35:37] Absolutely. And we just kind of suffer [35:38] consequences. hijacked by our thoughts. [35:40] Yeah. Hijacked is a great great you know [35:42] it stormed the like pilot's cabin and [35:44] it's flying us. Exactly. Wherever it [35:47] wants to go. That's kind of the [35:48] experience we have. So then you [35:50] meditation puts you behind the wheel of [35:52] the car. Most people haven't had the [35:54] experience you've had training yourself [35:57] to sort of disassociate or realize that [36:00] you're not your thoughts. So, as someone [36:02] that's on the other side of this [36:03] practice, [36:06] how can you persuade me that my life [36:09] will be better if I listen to this? [36:11] Like, what's the before and after, I [36:13] guess, for you? So, I don't think [36:15] everybody has to join a monastery and do [36:18] extreme retreats and the kind of things [36:19] I do. It maybe that's my my kind of [36:22] extreme nature. I I have so many friends [36:25] who meditate while they have families [36:27] and busy jobs and they they do 15 [36:29] minutes a day or twice a day or [36:31] whatever. It can absolutely be done in [36:33] anybody's lifestyle. But the whole point [36:36] is that you are learning to find your [36:38] own inner freedom. You're learning to [36:40] how to discover that you you are bigger [36:44] than the pain and suffering that seems [36:45] to drive your life. Because what what I [36:48] described earlier with the coming back [36:49] to the breath is is that first stage of [36:51] learning to gain a bit more power around [36:55] what your mind is doing. And then what [36:58] is so interesting is when you start to [37:00] think about okay when when I'm unhappy [37:05] or when I'm angry or whatever [37:08] if I am observing myself being unhappy [37:11] is the observer unhappy [37:14] is the is the observer angry and if I [37:17] feel angry and I know I'm angry the part [37:20] of my mind that's looking at the anger [37:21] cannot be angry because it's seeing the [37:24] anger. So, so in Buddhism they they they [37:27] use a metaphor to describe this which is [37:29] the sky and the clouds. The clouds can [37:32] be heavy and rainy and all of that but [37:34] the sky is always bigger than the [37:35] clouds. So our awareness of our minds [37:38] that that's where we can find our [37:40] freedom. And when we talk about seeking [37:42] purpose and seeking what are we looking [37:44] for in life, I think that's what we're [37:46] looking for all the time in everything [37:48] we do. Whether it be big life goals or, [37:50] you know, drinking a cup of coffee or [37:52] water, small moments, in every moment, [37:56] we're looking for release or freedom. We [37:58] think we're looking to feel happy or we [38:01] think we're looking for love or sex or [38:03] or whatever it is. But I think what [38:06] we're really looking for is to free [38:08] ourselves from from suffering and to [38:11] free ourselves from need and to to be [38:14] free to be more in touch with who we [38:16] really are. I think that's what we're [38:18] looking for. And when when you meditate [38:20] and you step back and look at your mind, [38:23] that observational [38:25] aspect is is key. [38:28] to become the sky. Yeah. To become the [38:30] sky rather rather than the clouds. And [38:33] then I think it can change your life [38:36] because [38:38] you you know when I first met my teacher [38:42] he he was quite a straight talking [38:44] person. He he would he he wouldn't you [38:46] know say much and what he said was often [38:49] could be sound sound a little bit harsh [38:51] but he said it with love. And when I [38:52] first met him, I'd go on about all the [38:54] stuff that was happening with me or had [38:56] happened with me or to me. And he just [38:58] says, "Stop taking yourself so [38:59] seriously." [39:01] And initially that could sound like a [39:03] slap in the face. I mean, imagine if you [39:04] went to a therapist and they said, "What [39:08] you've been through is peanuts. You [39:09] know, stop taking yourself seriously." [39:10] But he didn't mean it like that. What he [39:12] meant was stop clinging to a kind of [39:14] solidity. Stop making your your thoughts [39:17] and feelings and your past and make it [39:19] so solid. make try to be the sky instead [39:22] of the clouds. Try to step back and be [39:24] less solid about everything. Buddhism is [39:26] very much into this [39:29] notion that they call emptiness which [39:30] isn't emptiness in terms of a kind of [39:33] vacuous void but more that things are [39:36] illusurary things aren't as real and [39:38] solid and heavy as we think they are. [39:40] And I think meditation can help us to [39:42] think more in that way and find more [39:44] happiness. real happiness not not the [39:47] happiness that depends on I will be [39:49] happy if I will be happy when I can only [39:53] be happy because that's a very limited [39:55] happiness but imagine if you could be [39:57] happy no matter what is that what [40:00] Buddhism helps us to do I think Buddhism [40:02] is about freedom and I think freedom is [40:04] happy no matter what and I think but [40:07] more than that I think it's also about [40:09] compassion I the way I'm describing it [40:11] could sound like this is all just about [40:13] one's own personal development and [40:15] freeing oneself and becoming happier. [40:17] But the key point is we're living in a [40:20] connection, a world of connection. And [40:23] how can we genuinely help others? I [40:25] think through freeing our minds and [40:27] helping others to do the same. Can I be [40:30] in that state of mind where I am the sky [40:32] while also being incredibly effective in [40:35] my job as a CEO? Yeah, I think this is [40:38] this is possibly one of the [40:39] misconceptions. You know this is [40:41] something I came across quite early on [40:43] in when I was teaching meditation. I [40:45] started to give talks about meditation [40:48] in the workplace like 25 years ago. So [40:51] before it became very popular. You now [40:53] mindfulness is everywhere in in the [40:56] corporate world. But when I started it [40:58] was quite unusual. And I did come across [41:01] a lot of misconceptions. The funniest [41:03] one was before I went into a boardroom [41:05] to talk to the the people in there about [41:08] meditation, their CEO took me to side [41:11] and he said, "Um, please don't make them [41:14] too relaxed." [41:16] I said, "What do you mean?" He said, [41:17] "Well, I I like what you do, but I don't [41:20] want them to become too relaxed." I [41:22] said, "I'm not I'm not some kind of like [41:24] stage hypnotist. I'm not going to walk [41:27] into there and sort of, you know, put [41:29] everyone into a trance. That's that's [41:30] not what I do. [41:32] But it was such an interesting [41:33] conversation because it made me see that [41:35] his view of meditation is that you would [41:38] become this kind of spaced out, happy [41:41] with everything, don't care, and you'd [41:43] lose your drive. And it's absolutely not [41:46] that at all because it's about [41:47] precision. It's about being present. [41:49] It's about being less controlled by [41:51] distraction, be less controlled by [41:54] negative thinking. And if you can do [41:56] that, you can achieve more. So if you [41:58] are a CEO, if you are trying to achieve [42:01] something in your work and you meditate, [42:04] it can make you can work much much [42:06] harder and get less tired. And then also [42:08] you can start to think more deeply about [42:10] why am I doing the things I'm doing and [42:13] what am I really trying to achieve here? [42:16] Some of the most famous CEOs in the [42:18] world talk about their meditation [42:20] practice and this is why I've also been [42:21] slightly compelled into it. I think for [42:23] me I'm the type of person that's very [42:25] influenced by other people that I kind [42:28] of look up to and so someone like Steve [42:30] Jobs who I think had a deep sort of [42:32] spiritual practice which involved [42:34] meditation which I also think he cites [42:36] as being much of the reason he was able [42:37] to see around the corner and be more of [42:39] a visionary um was one of the big points [42:42] of inspiration for me to get more [42:43] curious about Buddhism and meditation. [42:46] Do you have any examples of like very [42:48] high productive, very successful people [42:51] that have had tremendous [42:54] benefits from meditation as it relates [42:56] to them being more successful in their [42:59] missions, their professional missions? I [43:01] mean, I can't I can't think of specific [43:03] individual names, but it's it's just [43:06] generally very well known that if you [43:08] meditate, it makes you more effective in [43:10] your life because you are becoming your [43:12] own boss. I mean we talk about being [43:14] your own boss but how many of us are [43:16] really really our own boss? You know we [43:19] can be the boss of other people. We can [43:21] be the boss of our environment to a [43:23] certain extent but to be to be the CEO [43:27] of your own mind [43:30] very very difficult. And so people who [43:34] can do that definitely become more [43:36] effective in the world. But I think what [43:39] also happens is they start to think [43:41] about how they could be really [43:43] successful and then do some good with [43:45] that success because they [43:48] they start to think about well is it all [43:51] just about the success and the wealth or [43:53] is there something I could do with that [43:55] success and wealth because meditation [43:57] makes you more compassionate. Meditation [44:00] makes you more ethical. It makes you and [44:02] not ethical in a kind of you know the [44:04] word ethics sounds so kind of Victorian [44:06] and so kind of restrictive but I mean [44:09] trying to make the world a better place [44:11] and I think there are many examples of [44:13] people who've become enormously [44:15] successful and used that success for the [44:17] good of the world and I think meditation [44:19] is something key in their success. I was [44:22] just looking for a couple of examples [44:24] and um Ray Dalio who a lot of people [44:26] know is one of the the best investors in [44:27] the world who wrote the book principle [44:29] said meditation more than anything in my [44:31] life is the biggest ingredient of [44:33] whatever success I've had. And Mark [44:34] Benoff who's the CEO of Salesforce a [44:37] tremendously large company said [44:38] meditation is the most important thing I [44:39] do each day. Oprah Winfrey Jack Dorsey [44:42] let's say who's the co-founder of [44:43] Twitter and Square said there's nothing [44:44] more impactful on my work than [44:46] meditation. And Steve Jobs said, "If you [44:48] just sit and observe, you will see how [44:50] restless your mind is. If you try to [44:52] calm it, it only makes it worse. But [44:54] over time, it does calm." And he [44:56] practiced Zen Buddhism and was a regular [44:59] meditator. And he um says that his [45:02] minimalist design philosophy and focus [45:04] were strongly influenced by his [45:06] spiritual and meditative practices. [45:09] You see, I think the the um [45:13] the thing that trips people up when they [45:15] think about how meditation could make [45:17] you more effective is the word calm. [45:20] Mhm. Because they think, "Oh, well, if I [45:22] become calm, I'm going to be I'm going [45:24] to miss I'm not going to be a [45:26] workaholic. I'm going to drop the ball." [45:27] Yeah. If I'm too calm, [45:30] but I don't think of calm in that way at [45:32] all as almost like a tranquilized calm. [45:35] I think of calm as being able to keep a [45:37] cool head under fire. [45:39] and be really precise and really on the [45:41] on the focus on in the now and really [45:46] hold on to your purpose and know why [45:48] you're doing what you're doing and be [45:49] less influenced by the areas of your [45:53] psychology that trip you up. I'm hearing [45:55] like clarity and emotional control. [45:58] Yeah. Optimizing your how your brain [46:00] performs. I started my first business at [46:03] 12 years old and then I started more [46:04] businesses at 14, 15, 16, 17 and 18. And [46:08] at that time, what I didn't realize is [46:10] that being a founder with no money meant [46:13] that I also had to be the marketeteer, [46:15] the sales rep, the finance team, [46:17] customer service, and the recruiter. But [46:19] if you're starting a business today, [46:21] thankfully there's a tool that wears all [46:23] of those hats for you, our sponsor [46:26] today, which is Shopify. Because of all [46:28] of its AI integrations, using Shopify [46:30] feels a bit like you've hired an entire [46:32] growth team from day one, taking care of [46:35] writing product descriptions, your [46:37] website design, and enhancing your [46:38] products images, not to mention the bits [46:41] you'd expect Shopify to handle, like the [46:43] shipping, like the taxes, like the [46:44] inventory. And if you're looking to get [46:46] your business started, go to [46:48] shopify.com/bartlet [46:50] and sign up for a $1 per month trial. [46:54] That's shopify.com/bartlet. [46:57] This one change has transformed how my [47:00] team and I move, train, and think about [47:01] our bodies. When Dr. Daniel Lieberman [47:04] came on the DEO, he explained how modern [47:06] shoes with their cushioning and support [47:08] are making our feet weaker and less [47:10] capable of doing what nature intended [47:12] them to do. We've lost the natural [47:14] strength and mobility in our feet, and [47:16] this is leading to issues like back pain [47:18] and knee pain. I'd already purchased a [47:21] pair of Viva barefoot shoes. So, I [47:23] showed them to Daniel Lieberman and he [47:24] told me that they were exactly the type [47:26] of shoe that would help me restore [47:28] natural foot movement and rebuild my [47:29] strength. But, I think it was [47:30] planticitis that I had where suddenly my [47:32] feet started hurting all the time. And [47:33] after that, I decided to start [47:34] strengthening my own foot by using the [47:36] Vivo Barefoot. And research from [47:38] Liverpool University has backed this up. [47:39] They've shown that wearing Vivo Barefoot [47:41] shoes for 6 months can increase foot [47:44] strength by up to 60%. Visit vivo [47:47] barefoot.com/doac [47:49] and use code diary 20 from my sponsor [47:52] for 20% off. A strong body starts with [47:55] strong feet. Earlier on you said that in [47:58] Buddhism they talk about an emptiness [48:01] which is kind of this realizing that [48:03] life isn't so solid and your identity is [48:07] a mirage and all these kinds of things. [48:10] It almost sounded like that's the [48:11] opposite of like victimhood [48:14] because when we think about victimhood, [48:16] it is I create an identity for myself [48:18] and then I create a story around that [48:20] identity which has suffered some kind of [48:22] injustice and then I kind of live out [48:24] that injustice. How does Buddhism think [48:26] about victimhood and identity and trauma [48:29] I guess? So of course we identify [48:32] incredibly strongly with our past and we [48:35] in so many ways are prisoners of what [48:37] has happened to us in our past and it's [48:41] totally understandable of course but [48:43] Buddhism brings in a whole fresh [48:45] perspective which is that you are not [48:46] your past. I mean even on a physical [48:49] level every cell in your body has [48:50] changed and your mind has changed. You [48:52] are you are right now in the present. [48:54] The past is is an illusion as is the [48:57] future. [48:59] And we spend so much time in the past [49:02] and future or trying to manipulate the [49:04] present. Whereas with with meditation, [49:06] you're learning to to be in the now and [49:10] not be. It doesn't mean you don't plan [49:12] or don't remember, but you're learning [49:14] to be to cling less to the past and [49:16] future. And you're learning to cling [49:19] less to or hold less to the idea that [49:22] things are really as solid as you think [49:23] they are. I mean it's very scientific [49:25] that there's a there's a Buddhist uh [49:27] meditation which literally is about a [49:30] table like you know here we are with [49:31] this table and they say if you if you [49:34] take apart this table you'll find it [49:36] doesn't exist because the table as it [49:39] seems right now is is a is a top with [49:41] legs. You you you take the bits apart [49:44] and now where is your notion of table? [49:47] you've got these bits of wood or metal [49:48] or whatever it is and you start kind of [49:51] dissecting that further and further and [49:53] further. Uh this is where Buddhism and [49:55] and and particle physics become you know [49:58] talking a lot. There's a lot of [50:00] conversation there in that the the [50:02] smaller and smaller you go into these [50:03] these wood shavings and then particles [50:06] and can you find the smallest part that [50:09] makes up all of reality and Buddhists [50:12] would say no because if it's a part it [50:14] has parts. [50:15] There is no such thing as the partless [50:18] particle because if it's a particle it [50:20] can be further subdivided. So, [50:24] we can't find the smallest base that [50:26] makes up all of matter. What we're [50:29] experiencing is more like a dream or an [50:31] illusion. And uh the reality we live in, [50:33] of course, it feels very solid. You [50:34] know, if I if I throw this this cup at [50:37] somebody, it's going to hit their head [50:39] and hurt them. There's no point saying, [50:40] "Well, it's all empty. Don't worry about [50:42] it." But the idea behind this philosophy [50:45] of understanding things not to be as [50:47] solid as they are is that we can learn [50:48] to suffer less because we spend so much [50:51] of our energy constantly reacting to [50:53] things as if they're really solid and [50:55] really real and there's nothing that can [50:56] be done about them whether that be [50:58] people or objects in the world around us [51:00] or our mind itself. [51:03] And if we can desolidify some of that we [51:05] could become more free. We all carry so [51:08] many burdens in this regard. You know, [51:10] it could be grief, it could be [51:11] heartbreak, it could be a colleague at [51:13] work that doesn't dislike us, a comment [51:15] in our Instagram page of someone some [51:17] something someone said about us. How [51:20] does one go about [51:23] alleviating ourselves from this kind of [51:26] burden? Yeah. So, I for me it it's very [51:30] much about um dropping the story [51:34] and looking at the feeling. Okay. [51:37] Explain that to me. [51:38] So for me this became [51:42] very uh very [51:45] important practice for me when I was in [51:47] a long retreat. [51:49] So I went into a very long retreat for [51:52] four years. I became a monk for a year [51:54] and I stayed a bit longer stayed a bit [51:56] longer. It was after about four years [51:58] that I I decided to do this for life and [52:00] I took lifelong vows and then I knew [52:03] about these long I did some short [52:04] retreats but I knew about these long [52:06] retreats but it wasn't until 12 years [52:08] later that the opportunity came up to go [52:10] into a long retreat [52:12] uh four years long where you are really [52:14] just cut off from the world for that [52:16] length of time. No, no, nobody goes in [52:19] or out. And you are meditating many, [52:22] many hours a day. And it was the most [52:25] frightening experience of my life [52:28] because I I was in there alone with with [52:30] my own thoughts and emotions. It's not a [52:32] completely solitary retreat. There are [52:33] other monks there all doing their own [52:35] meditation in their rooms. So there is a [52:36] kind of group, but you are very much [52:38] alone as well. [52:40] And for me the whole thing was for the [52:44] first two years was just horrific [52:47] amounts of depression, misery, pain, [52:50] anguish, anxiety that would build into [52:53] panic attacks. I I was really really [52:55] shocked by what happened to me in there [52:58] because I I I think I thought I'd you [53:00] know I'd been a monk for 12 years and [53:02] I'd already started to you know give a [53:04] few talks about meditation and and [53:07] maybe I thought I was quite sorted but I [53:10] I wasn't and I got in there and really [53:11] fell apart. But it was an amazing thing [53:14] that happened to me because that falling [53:16] apart forced me after a while to to [53:20] learn how to engage with what I'm [53:23] talking about which is looking at the [53:25] suffering and working with that with [53:27] meditation [53:29] looking at the suffering. So for me [53:31] during those first two years of the [53:33] retreat [53:35] I was completely obsessed with the story [53:38] because I I was experiencing these [53:40] horrendous feelings of heartbreak [53:44] and feelings of depression uh anxiety [53:47] just kind of a whole [53:50] mass of suffering inside myself and I [53:53] was I was trying to almost do therapy on [53:55] myself and think okay let's you know [53:57] thinking memories were coming up from [53:59] the past and thinking about things that [54:00] had happened in my past and is this why [54:03] I'm suffering now and how do I resolve [54:05] that? And the more I went down that [54:07] road, the worse it got. And I found [54:10] myself really disconnected from [54:13] Buddhism. And it was a really [54:15] frightening experience because I I'm [54:17] there in a 4-year retreat. I'm a monk [54:20] and I'm I was feeling completely [54:22] alienated from the whole thing. I I kind [54:25] of wanted to just get away from it. I [54:27] wanted to run away. And things only [54:29] changed when I [54:32] hit rock bottom like hugely in that I [54:36] actually [54:37] I climbed over the wall of the retreat [54:39] to run away. I couldn't take it anymore. [54:42] I I at one morning I had the most [54:44] immense panic attack I've ever had and I [54:47] just like saw red and just ran I legged [54:50] it out of the retreat which is un it's [54:52] unthinkable. you know, in a four-year [54:54] retreat, you're not supposed to leave. [54:55] But I jumped over the wall and tried to [54:57] escape. I say tried to escape as if I [54:59] was in some kind of, you know, prison or [55:01] cult. It's not like that. People do [55:02] leave retreats, but for me, it was this [55:04] kind of dramatic get out of there and [55:06] run away. And [55:09] I remember um like freaking out and [55:13] running and running and running down [55:16] this road in the rain. This was on a [55:18] very, you know, remote area of a [55:20] Scottish island. and then just stopping [55:22] and thinking, "What are you doing? [55:25] What what has happened to you?" And I [55:26] just stopped and then went back and I [55:29] asked the leaders of the retreat if I [55:31] could be let back in. And they said, [55:32] "Well, no, you've left." But I really [55:35] begged them because I I had such clarity [55:37] in that moment. I wanted to go back in. [55:38] And they said, "Okay, the abbot of my [55:40] monastery said, "Okay, stay stay in a [55:43] little caravan on the edge of the [55:44] retreat boundary for a week, for seven [55:46] days, and think about what you're doing, [55:49] and then we'll see if you will let you [55:50] back in. [55:52] And during that time, I [55:54] I thought really deeply and I re I [55:56] really knew I wanted to go back in [55:58] because there was at that moment a [56:00] thought of shall I give up being a monk? [56:01] Shall I give up the whole thing? I I [56:03] can't do this. It's made me so [56:04] miserable. But I I really knew in that [56:07] moment what what my purpose was. I knew [56:10] I wanted to go back in and carry on. But [56:12] I also knew I'd been [56:14] tormenting myself with my past and that [56:18] I hadn't worked out how to [56:22] how to heal myself. I I I'd been sinking [56:26] so badly and I if I was to go back in [56:28] there, I would have to try a completely [56:30] new approach. [56:33] Why did you choose to go back in? [56:34] Because I I really strongly believed [56:36] that it was what I want to do with my [56:40] life. And a part of me thought, don't [56:43] give something up when you're freaking [56:44] out because you will regret it. If [56:48] you're going to give this thing up, give [56:50] it up from a place of clarity, knowing [56:51] that there's something better for you [56:52] out there. Don't give up because you're [56:54] having a panic attack and you can't take [56:56] it. That's the wrong kind of timing to [57:00] make a life change because I do I I [57:03] really do believe in what I'm doing. I I [57:06] I this is the life I've chosen for [57:08] myself and I want to do it. But it got [57:10] so difficult I couldn't take it anymore. [57:13] Why did you want to do it? If something [57:15] is painful and causing you anxiety [57:16] because I felt that this this pain I'm [57:20] going through [57:22] I've the the meth the methods are there. [57:24] I just need to know how to use them and [57:26] I could learn to conquer this. I I this [57:30] pain could be the breakthrough. Most [57:33] people in in their lives when they think [57:34] about the things that give them anxiety [57:36] or pain or fear, you know, we live as [57:39] sort of discomfort avoiding humans. So [57:41] we try and run to run to comfort or [57:43] pleasure. Exactly. So life is hard. [57:45] Let's run from it. Let's get on a plane, [57:47] fly to another country and try and just [57:50] set up a new life somewhere else. It [57:51] doesn't work because you go to your new [57:54] life and the thing that has been [57:56] haunting you like a shadow goes with [57:57] you. You can't run from yourself. [58:01] You can you can run to the end of the [58:03] earth and that thing that has been [58:06] tormenting you is part of you. And until [58:09] you learn to integrate that, it will [58:11] always trip you up. And so I went back [58:14] into that retreat knowing, okay, this is [58:17] your last chance. [58:20] If you don't if if you mess this up [58:22] again, that that's it, you know, forget [58:24] it. So it was a real like make orb [58:27] breakak situation. And I went back in [58:29] and I I I um [58:33] everything changed [58:35] because I found I I had to find a new a [58:39] different way of dealing with that [58:41] suffering. What was that? Okay. So, I'm [58:43] back in there and it's coming up again. [58:45] the depression, the anxiety, the [58:49] the pain. Like to me, it felt like [58:54] it it felt like like some something like [58:57] that was piercing me. It felt like a it [58:59] felt like there was like a knife [59:01] constantly twisting [59:03] twisting and turning in my heart or like [59:05] in the middle of me. It was really [59:07] painful. And what I'd been doing up [59:10] until that point was just trying to get [59:12] that knife out and also thinking, why is [59:14] it there? Is it because of what happened [59:16] to me when I was 14? Is it what happened [59:18] to me when I was 17? Is it this? Is it [59:20] that? Is it my my family? What is it? [59:23] That's the story. I say story. I'm not [59:26] I'm I'm not belittling people's stories. [59:28] I'm just saying it's the narrative, [59:30] isn't it? [59:34] So I I decided to to use the knife as [59:37] the meditation [59:40] to to actually meditate on it [59:45] and and the the whole thing starts to [59:47] change when you do that because until [59:49] that point you've been if until that [59:52] point you've been trying to get rid of [59:53] your suffering or get rid of your pain. [59:56] But if you turn your pain into your [59:58] meditation, you're moving towards it. [60:02] And [60:03] how can it hurt you if you've decided to [60:05] move towards it? You you you've made [60:08] that choice. So what I started to do was [60:10] just focus on the pain, but try to [60:14] bypass the judgments. I don't like this. [60:16] This is so terrible. Why am I depressed? [60:18] Why am I anxious? [60:20] And just feel the feeling. And it's a [60:22] sensation in the body [60:25] because one of the key um [60:28] instructions in meditation is when you [60:30] focus your mind, you focus it with less [60:32] judgment. This is good, this is bad. You [60:35] just focus. So you're focusing on that [60:37] feeling without pushing it away, without [60:39] saying why do I feel like this, but just [60:42] the feeling. And it you start it starts [60:45] to change. [60:47] it starts to change because [60:50] you're accepting it. My my teachers had [60:54] always said to me, they'd always go on [60:55] and on about acceptance and I just I [60:57] just wanted to hit them when they said [60:58] it cuz it sounded so grim. You know, [61:01] you've got to accept yourself or you've [61:02] got to accept your suffering. To me, [61:04] that sounded like you're going to for [61:06] the rest of your life be dragging this [61:07] bag of rocks up a hill. You know, [61:09] acceptance is so miserable and so [61:11] boring. I didn't realize that what they [61:13] meant was was compassion and [61:17] self-acceptance at a very very deep [61:19] level. So, so I was I'm I was focusing [61:22] on that feeling in my body and trying [61:25] not to go into the stories about it or [61:27] the hatred of it and just move towards [61:29] it and and kind of become become one [61:33] with that pain and then you relax and [61:36] something kind of releases. [61:38] And I mean, I think it works on a [61:39] chemical level because basically when [61:41] you're when you're trying to push pain [61:42] away, you're creating enormous amounts [61:44] of uh cortisol in your body, the stress [61:46] hormone. When you relax, the endorphins [61:49] arise, you start to feel happy. I mean, [61:50] it's quite bizarre that the thing that [61:53] has hurt you so much starts to turn into [61:55] a kind of joyful feeling and you start [61:58] to think, oh wow, okay, so happiness [62:01] is nothing to do with somebody being [62:03] nice to me or this object or that thing. [62:06] Happiness is about being okay with your [62:08] suffering [62:11] and and and not just being okay with it, [62:14] but actually sending love into the place [62:17] in yourself that you hated so much. So [62:20] for for me um that what started to [62:23] change was [62:25] from from from having a feeling like a [62:27] knife twisting inside me and hurting me [62:29] and wanting to get rid of it. [62:32] I found ways to hold that with with [62:35] love. And I I started to have this image [62:38] in my head of as if I had found a like a [62:42] frightened rabbit or a bird with a [62:44] broken wing and I'm holding that in my [62:46] hand with tenderness. [62:48] I'd never been able to do that for [62:50] myself. [62:51] I had never ever been able to be kind to [62:55] myself. [62:56] Everything in my life until up until [62:58] that point had been so harsh and so self [63:02] self-hating [63:05] and and I think you know in my teenage [63:08] years when I was trying to become a a [63:10] successful actor I think that was the [63:13] drive was I I hate myself so I better [63:15] get loads of people to love me instead [63:17] cuz I can't do it. I'm not saying all [63:19] actors are like that by no means but [63:21] there is a kind of actor who is like [63:22] that. We know that and that was me. And [63:25] then you know even as a as a as a monk [63:28] and you become celibate and you you're [63:30] you know having this kind of more like [63:32] looking after yourself lifestyle. I [63:34] developed all these incredibly strong [63:37] attachments with friends where I'd want [63:38] them to be nice to me and I didn't want [63:40] to be alone with myself. I couldn't [63:42] spend time alone with myself. And then [63:44] in the first two years of that retreat [63:46] I'm hating myself and hating my pain and [63:48] jumping over the wall and anything to [63:50] kind of jump out of my own skin. And [63:52] when I learned how to do this kind of [63:56] practice with sending compassion [63:59] into that part of myself that I'd hated [64:01] so much, it it it was really [64:03] transformative. [64:05] You said it felt like holding a scared [64:08] rabbit or a bird with a broken wing. [64:11] How did you come to feel about that [64:12] bird? [64:14] I felt um I felt love for that part of [64:18] myself. And for me, that's only possible [64:23] when you stop getting so distracted by [64:25] all the history and the the the the [64:28] details of your past, but you're just [64:31] relating to the feeling in your body [64:33] right now. [64:35] And I don't know if it's like this for [64:36] everybody, but for me, feeling it in the [64:38] body is a really easy way to start [64:40] because [64:42] yeah, it's depression, it's anxiety, [64:44] it's trauma, whatever it is that's quite [64:46] kind of nebulous. How do you find it? [64:48] And for me it was so physical. It was [64:50] like this twisting of a knife in the [64:51] heart or a sinking feeling in the in the [64:53] chest. And just to relate to that [64:56] sensation with kindness [64:59] taught me how to love myself but in an [65:02] accepting way you know not it's not [65:05] about you know becoming an egoomaniac [65:08] like I love myself. It's more have [65:10] kindness for yourself. How does this [65:12] translate to things like grief? Because [65:14] grief is one of the the hardest things [65:16] to get to acceptance on the sort of [65:18] finality of life, losing someone you [65:20] love. You've been through this yourself. [65:22] You you had a I think a best friend of [65:23] yours who was Well, my teacher. Oh, your [65:26] teacher. Well, he was my best friend as [65:28] well as my teacher. He he he was [65:30] murdered. He was in so 11 years ago. My [65:34] teacher Akon Rimpiche who had been my [65:37] everything for all those years, you [65:39] know, he he was my teacher, my closest [65:41] friend. He I also I spent a lot of time [65:45] with him. I became his kind of [65:46] assistant. So when he would travel, I [65:48] was with him all the time. So we were [65:50] very close. He was Tibetan and he was in [65:54] charge of our monastery in Scotland. And [65:57] part of his his work was he would run a [66:00] charity called Rockpa which has um oh [66:03] that's him. um he would go to Tibet [66:07] every year and um look after projects [66:11] there, feeding orphans, looking after [66:13] schools, hospitals, etc. He was on his [66:16] way to Tibet one year and he was in [66:18] Changdu in China and he was um basically [66:21] ambushed and stabbed, killed. [66:24] And I mean this completely rocked the [66:27] Buddhist world. It's like, you know, [66:29] horrendous news. But on a personal level [66:31] for me, [66:33] I was one of the first people who found [66:35] out. I I'd been on the phone to him [66:36] every day until then. I was his [66:38] assistant and very working very closely [66:40] with him. So it complet my it completely [66:44] like blew me apart. I mean it blew me to [66:48] pieces. [66:51] I cannot describe how badly it blew me [66:54] to pieces. [66:57] But [67:00] the meditation I've described to you [67:03] saw me through [67:07] because I at some point during that [67:09] grieving process I remembered what to [67:12] do. [67:14] At first I didn't because you know when [67:15] you're really in it in in it you you [67:18] can't think but then [67:21] so there was the whole aftermath you [67:22] know he was killed and it was in all the [67:24] press and then as his assistant I was [67:27] the one dealing with the media and in a [67:29] way that you stay busy when you're [67:31] grieving it kind of helps you to you [67:34] know stay focused but then the nights [67:36] the nights was nighttime was when it [67:38] started to hurt [67:41] because at night I would just be tossing [67:43] and turning turning and feeling like [67:46] feeling like I was on fire [67:50] because I had a mixture of grief, anger, [67:52] despair. It was a whole mixture of [67:54] things. [67:56] We knew the killer. The person who [67:59] murdered him had been a monk, a Tibetan. [68:02] He had been a monk in our monastery. We [68:04] knew him. He actually had the same name [68:05] as me and we knew him quite well. So [68:09] there was all of that mixed in with what [68:12] on earth happened to this person that he [68:13] did this thing. And so all of that is [68:16] consuming me at night and I'm just [68:17] tossing and turning feeling like I'm in [68:19] flames. And then at some point it kicked [68:21] in [68:23] the the meditation. It just had it just [68:25] happened because I'd done it in retreat. [68:27] It had seen me through. It had really [68:28] really helped me. And at some point I [68:31] just had to lie there and send love into [68:34] the flames in me. You know, I had to [68:37] send send that kindness into the place I [68:41] was in despair. [68:43] I'm not saying that I then just became [68:45] all right. No, but it absolutely [68:48] calmed things. Absolutely. And it it is [68:52] it is it is all about love. It really [68:54] is. You are sending love into the pain [68:57] you are experiencing. [68:59] And this helped me through the grief. It [69:02] helped me also with forgiveness with the [69:04] the guy we knew who did it. It helped me [69:06] on so many levels. And I'm not saying [69:08] that it, you know, it's it's all okay, [69:11] but I have I I've made peace with his [69:13] death. And [69:17] I mean, he taught me this practice. [69:20] He taught me how to do that. And then he [69:24] died and I had to do it. That I I think [69:26] of it as his last gift to me. [69:29] And um [69:32] I'm you know I I I I'm will be forever [69:34] grateful. [69:36] When you talk about sending love into [69:38] the flames, what is the the actual [69:41] practice there? Is it certain sentences [69:43] you're saying? No, it's thinking. Yeah, [69:45] I'm glad you asked this because it it is [69:47] so much about going beyond the words and [69:51] going into an experience of oneness. [69:54] So, so to make it really practical, you [69:56] know, you're feeling you're feeling [69:59] incredible trauma in your body for [70:03] finding it physically is the easiest way [70:05] to do it. Like you your body's in flames [70:07] or you've got like a feeling of a knife [70:09] twisting in your heart, whatever it is, [70:10] there's this feeling in the body and [70:13] first of all, you just focus on that [70:14] feeling. [70:16] So, anybody who who meditates knows how [70:19] to focus on their breathing. It's the [70:21] same thing. It's just where you're [70:23] focusing. So, you're feeling the feeling [70:26] and you're trying to bypass the thoughts [70:28] of this is uncomfortable. I want this to [70:30] go away. Why did he die? What happened? [70:32] You're just feeling the feeling. [70:36] And then you pay attention to that [70:39] feeling in a loving way. [70:44] You you flood it with love. [70:48] And the reason this is possible, I mean [70:50] this is touching upon a major a major [70:54] belief in Buddhist philosophy, which is [70:56] that our minds are naturally [70:58] compassionate. [71:00] We are not [71:02] these fight orflight killing machines [71:04] that some people like to think the human [71:07] being is. We are our natural state is to [71:12] be kind. It is who we are naturally deep [71:15] down. So when you clear away all the the [71:17] words and the the ideas and you just sit [71:20] with the feeling and you send love into [71:23] that feeling with your mind, you're just [71:24] loving that feeling, holding it with [71:26] compassion as if you were with a friend [71:29] who was grieving. You know, if you if [71:31] you were sitting with a friend who was [71:32] freaking out or grieving or whatever, [71:35] you you you're not going to slap them [71:37] around the face and say snap out of it. [71:39] You will hold their hand [71:41] and we all know how to do that. The [71:44] question is, can you do it for yourself? [71:46] And for me, that was a huge challenge [71:48] because I hated myself so much for so [71:51] many years. [71:53] I was my worst enemy. So to hold my own [71:56] hand internally in that sense, that's [71:59] what I mean by sending love into the [72:00] feeling. And what happens then is the [72:03] feeling starts to change. [72:05] It starts to melt. The sharpness, the [72:07] sharp edge of it, edges of it start to [72:09] melt. And you start to be okay with [72:11] being not okay. [72:14] And [72:17] it's almost as if a kind of happiness [72:19] starts to arise, but it's not like a [72:21] it's a kind of happiness you haven't [72:23] tasted before. It's a happiness of I can [72:27] be okay with this. It makes you [72:29] immensely strong. [72:32] You talked about forgiveness. [72:35] Did you forgive the man that murdered [72:36] your friend and teacher? Yes. [72:40] Quite quickly. [72:43] it I mean in a way it was made easier [72:45] because it became really clear that he [72:48] was psychotic [72:50] and of course that's no excuse or [72:52] condoning or anything like that but [72:54] somebody who is [72:56] really unable to control themselves I [72:58] mean how can you hate them or whatever [73:00] you know it's [73:02] that's an extreme case but there are the [73:05] practice of forgiveness is a hard one [73:07] isn't it because we we've all got people [73:09] in our lives that we think might have [73:10] wronged us or done [73:12] which has caused us pain and almost the [73:14] way that we [73:16] create our own perception of justice is [73:19] by holding the grudge. Yeah. Now, now [73:22] why do we do that? That's my that's the [73:24] question is do we think [73:28] do we think that if we let go of the [73:30] grudge we have let the other person get [73:32] away with it? That's how it kind of [73:34] feels, right? Wouldn't you say that by [73:36] holding the grudge they've got away with [73:38] it? [73:40] because you're the one suffering. [73:42] They've really won. They're winning in [73:44] each moment because you're holding on to [73:47] that. In Buddhism, there's a a teaching [73:50] that says it's like holding on to a [73:51] piece of hot metal or holding a hot coal [73:54] in your hand and it's just burning you. [73:56] So, if I'm holding the grudge, they have [73:58] absolutely got away with it because they [74:00] are the thing they did which was one [74:03] thing maybe I am now constantly hurting [74:07] and they are absolutely the winner. So [74:09] for I I wonder if we we assume I think [74:12] we do assume that forgiveness is a kind [74:14] of giving up even the word forgive the [74:17] give in the word. So it sounds like [74:19] we're taking a weaker position. We're [74:21] giving up. We're sort of surrendering [74:23] but I think forgiveness is a strength or [74:25] a power and [74:28] it's actually nothing to do with the [74:30] other person. They might you're not [74:31] going to necessarily write them a letter [74:34] and say I've forgiven you. But you're [74:36] freeing yourself. You're dropping your [74:38] burden because that rage is toxic and [74:42] that hurt is toxic. [74:44] It's so hard to let go of it. And people [74:47] can say, "Let go and you just want to [74:49] slap them in the face because what? [74:51] Okay, is it that easy? I'm just going to [74:53] let go." You know, it's not that easy. [74:55] It's bloody hard. [74:58] But meditation gives gives you the [75:00] tools. Partly because meditation anyway [75:03] is helping to loosen up that kind of [75:06] glue that we have in our minds where [75:07] we're glued into those feelings. It even [75:10] just a simple meditation like coming [75:13] back to the breath is helping you to be [75:15] less glued into those thoughts and [75:17] reactions and feelings. So the feeling [75:19] of rage can start to be less heavy for [75:22] you. You've been through several sort of [75:25] traumatic incidents. You talked about [75:27] being 14, being 17, sexual abuse, parent [75:29] parental divorce, a little bit of [75:31] neglect, it sounds like, as well. Have [75:33] you forgiven all of those people in your [75:34] life? [75:39] I don't know. I don't know if [75:40] forgiveness is a big huge massive moment [75:43] or if it's a process. I'm friends with [75:46] all those people, [75:48] very close friends with all those [75:50] people. And I think [75:55] here's what I think. I think I've [75:57] learned how to forgive the feelings [76:00] that those incidents hap gave rise to. [76:04] Mhm. That to me is much more important [76:07] than forgiving the people. Mhm. [76:12] And I think what's also happened to me [76:13] is I've started to find that the [76:16] suffering [76:19] that I experience has some use [76:23] because it is the thing that you're [76:25] using for your mental transformation. [76:29] Rimpache always used to say um suffering [76:32] is like compost. [76:34] Compost is made of rotten vegetables. [76:36] people chuck it away or they know how to [76:38] make the field grow and I I think it's [76:41] like that. [76:43] So with forgiveness um I would say yeah [76:47] meditation but I would say also thinking [76:49] thinking deeply about [76:52] about the situation. [76:55] You know what's really helped me [76:58] with with my dad and with other people [77:02] is to think about the suffering they [77:03] were going through that kind of like [77:05] propelled them to behave the way they've [77:07] behaved. There's always something isn't [77:10] there in somebody that has made them [77:12] behave the way they behave. And there's [77:14] a part of us that gets very indignant [77:16] and thinks how dare they they should [77:18] know better. Whereas the Buddhist's [77:21] answer would be well what what do you [77:22] mean they should know better? They know [77:24] what they know there. They are they are [77:26] driven by their own confusion and their [77:28] own pain. Wh Why do you think they were [77:30] out to get you? Why do you think they [77:33] were deliberately out to maliciously get [77:35] you? Weren't they just caught in their [77:37] own suffering and you you were there? [77:41] But it's not so much about you. [77:43] And I think that starts to lighten the [77:45] burden a bit when you start to think [77:46] about, you know, there's a meditation I [77:49] sometimes do where you you swap places [77:51] with the other person in your mind. [77:53] You sit and you think about being them [77:56] and looking at the world out of their [77:57] eyes. The person that hurt you. Yeah. So [78:00] many people will be thinking about that [78:02] person in their life as you speak and [78:03] they'll be the challenge I guess they'll [78:05] face is they'll continually come back to [78:07] this idea that this person is an [78:09] Yeah. They you know it almost [78:11] we all are though. We are too. We all [78:13] are. I am. We're all because we're all [78:15] just confused. We're all at the mercy of [78:18] our own minds. [78:20] If you meditate regularly, you realize [78:22] how out of control you are because [78:25] you're trying to sit there with your [78:27] breathing and all you're thinking about [78:29] is shopping lists and you think, "Wow, [78:31] the human mind is really pretty messed [78:34] up. We can't make it do anything we want [78:36] it to do." So this person that you think [78:39] they're so evil and so terrible and how [78:41] dare they do the thing they've done. I'm [78:43] not saying that we're condoning it and [78:45] saying, "Yeah, you can do what you [78:46] want." [78:47] I'm just saying lighten up a bit because [78:50] people are just doing their best and [78:52] sometimes their best is really bad. Then [78:55] that doesn't have to become your [78:56] problem. It's not really about you. [79:00] We we we obviously take things [79:02] personally. If something is done to you, [79:04] of course you're going to take it [79:05] personally. [79:07] But meditation helps you look at the [79:09] 360° [79:10] view of a situation rather than just [79:13] from your perspective. And very [79:16] important here that we don't get into [79:17] that kind of victim shaming reality [79:20] where you think, "Oh, it's all about me [79:22] and poor them." It's it's not that at [79:24] all. It's simply that you think we're [79:27] all we're all messed up in various ways [79:30] and and that's the human condition. Make [79:32] sure you keep what I'm about to say to [79:34] yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you to [79:37] come even deeper into the diary of a [79:38] CEO. Welcome to my inner circle. This is [79:41] a brand new private community that I'm [79:44] launching to the world. We have so many [79:45] incredible things that happen that you [79:47] are never shown. We have the briefs that [79:49] are on my iPad when I'm recording the [79:51] conversation. We have clips we've never [79:53] released. We have behind the scenes [79:54] conversations with the guest and also [79:56] the episodes that we've never ever [79:58] released and so much more. In the [80:02] circle, you'll have direct access to me. [80:03] You can tell us what you want this show [80:05] to be, who you want us to interview, and [80:07] the types of conversations you would [80:08] love us to have. But remember, for now, [80:11] we're only inviting the first 10,000 [80:13] people that join before it closes. So, [80:15] if you want to join our private closed [80:16] community, head to the link in the [80:18] description below or go to [80:19] daccircle.com. [80:22] I will speak to you then. I'm going to [80:24] let you in to a little bit of a secret. [80:26] You're probably going to think me and my [80:27] team are a little bit weird, but I can [80:28] still remember to this day when Jamaima [80:30] from my team posted on Slack that she [80:32] changed the scent in this studio. And [80:34] right after she posted it, the entire [80:36] office clapped in our Slack channel. And [80:38] this might sound crazy, but at the D [80:40] ofio, this is the type of 1% improvement [80:42] we make on our show. And that is why the [80:44] show is the way it is. By understanding [80:46] the power of compounding 1%, you can [80:49] absolutely change your outcomes in your [80:51] life. It isn't about drastic [80:53] transformations or quick wins. It's [80:55] about the small consistent actions that [80:58] have a lasting change in your outcomes. [81:00] So two years ago, we started the process [81:02] of creating this beautiful diary and [81:04] it's truly beautiful. Inside there's [81:06] lots of pictures, lots of inspiration [81:07] and motivation as well, some interactive [81:10] elements. And the purpose of this diary [81:12] is to help you identify, stay focused [81:15] on, develop consistency with the 1%s [81:18] that will ultimately change your life. [81:19] So if you want one for yourself or for a [81:21] friend or for a colleague or for your [81:22] team, then head to the diary.com right [81:25] now. I'll link it below. Many of us live [81:28] trapped in the life we have. I guess [81:31] maybe the word trapped isn't the right [81:32] word, but held back in many ways because [81:34] of fear. And I wondered what Buddhism [81:36] teaches us about fear in terms of fear [81:38] of [81:40] taking risks or, you know, going and [81:44] becoming a Buddhist uh monk or starting [81:47] a business or pursuing a passion or [81:49] moving to Bali. Many of us have these [81:51] these dreams, these callings, but we're [81:53] trapped in fear. And would you also [81:56] agree that the fear can be about those [81:58] bigger things, but also it's a momentto- [82:00] moment subtle anxiety that just like [82:02] pervades everything? Yeah, it's both. To [82:06] to me this became hugely [82:10] um like obvious when I came out of that [82:14] four-year retreat because I I came out [82:18] that retreat was 2005 to 2009. [82:21] When I came out of that retreat, [82:23] everybody had smartphones. [82:25] During those four years, the whole [82:27] landscape of technology changed [82:29] dramatically. Smartphones, social media, [82:32] the whole thing happened during that [82:33] time. And you hadn't been on the [82:35] internet those that No, no, we had [82:36] nothing. Before my retreat, some people [82:39] had Blackberries and then that was it. [82:41] And then suddenly it's all different. [82:43] And I arrived in London and everybody's [82:45] walking around with their face buried in [82:47] phones and I I'm walk, you know, going [82:49] up the escalator and the and the tube in [82:51] London and the little billboards are [82:53] moving images. Mhm. That made me feel [82:56] dizzy. [82:59] But where I'm going with this is is I I [83:01] I I'm maybe because I've been in this [83:05] unusual environment and now I'm back in [83:07] normal reality, I see it with more of a [83:09] shock. And I started to think, how much [83:12] are we being made to feel afraid all the [83:15] time? [83:16] When news media becomes digitalized and [83:18] monetized and then you have to keep the [83:21] person reading, we know the tricks that [83:23] people have to do. We know we all know [83:25] about clickbait. We all know about how [83:27] the the headline of an article has to be [83:29] shocking enough to make you read the [83:30] article and then you see the ads. You [83:33] don't actually find out the information [83:34] until two/ird way down. We know, we know [83:37] that and we're all wise to that on one [83:40] level and on the other level we are [83:41] completely influenced by it. So we're [83:44] now walking around in a world where [83:46] we're constantly being told we are in [83:48] danger. I'm not I'm not here to, you [83:51] know, I'm not anti-technology. It's [83:53] great. It can do so many good things, [83:54] but it's like food. You got to eat it in [83:58] the right way. If you if you overeat, [84:00] you get sick. If you not discerning [84:02] about what you eat, you're going to get [84:04] ill. It's the same with technology. [84:06] And so yeah, fear is now used in every [84:09] every walk of life. Fear is used more [84:12] than ever in politics to to make us [84:14] afraid so that we vote for people [84:15] because of fear. Fear is used so much [84:18] now to make us go shopping, hurry up [84:20] while stocks last. So what do we do [84:22] about that when we live in a world that [84:24] is [84:26] commercially driven or driven by power [84:29] dynamics that mean that fear is just a [84:31] great motivator and a great way to [84:33] influence? I think we we have to protect [84:36] our minds with meditation. Does this [84:38] mean like throw your phone away and [84:40] don't go outside? What does it mean? No. [84:42] Don't throw your phone away. Don't don't [84:44] go and run away to the mountains. Learn [84:47] to face the fear. Learn to be fearless [84:50] in a frightened world. And I think this [84:53] is something very practical because I I [84:56] do this through practicing microscopic [84:58] moments of meditation in busy [85:01] situations. What does that mean? So, I [85:04] might be standing in a queue and I'll [85:06] feel the ground under my feet. I might [85:08] be in an airport queuing up and instead [85:11] of going into that impatience thing and [85:13] the stressy mode or or checking my [85:16] phone, I'll I'll do a mo moment of [85:19] meditation. Something that's very [85:21] important to me is to meditate every [85:22] day, sitting down and doing it kind of [85:25] formally, but also these micro moments [85:27] throughout the day. Tiny moments where [85:29] you just become aware of yourself, [85:31] become aware of the ground under your [85:33] feet, become aware of your shoulders, [85:35] drop your shoulders, be aware of them, [85:36] become aware of your breathing. And I [85:39] find this if you do this in cues and [85:40] traffic jams, it changes your entire [85:42] reality [85:44] because what are you doing? You're re [85:46] you're rew you're rewiring your own [85:48] brain. [85:49] You you know how whenever we're in a [85:52] stuck situation like a queue or a [85:55] traffic jam, we are wired to respond [85:58] with tension and impatience. [86:01] But if you do a mic micro moment of [86:04] mindfulness, you're changing the wiring. [86:07] You're teaching yourself that you can [86:08] meet stress in a calm way. You can be [86:12] okay with being stuck in in the traffic. [86:14] So what that does is it then makes you [86:16] more fearless because you're almost like [86:18] looking forward to the next traffic jam [86:20] whereas most of us are just reacting to [86:21] situations instead of reacting you're [86:23] thinking bring it on. [86:25] There is a gap isn't there between what [86:27] happens and how we react. That's the [86:29] crucial gap. the gap between impulse and [86:31] action because so much is reaction. [86:35] So so much of I think we spend so much [86:38] of our lives just reacting [86:41] in in in the I feel hungry so I eat [86:44] somebody says hello I say hello but even [86:47] on a momentto- moment basis how much are [86:49] we consciously living and how much are [86:51] we just reacting [86:53] and so when we can find that gap between [86:55] the impulse and the action and make a [86:57] different choice [86:59] I think it's almost like in every moment [87:01] we're we're standing at a fork in the [87:03] road In every moment, what one road is [87:07] the road of reaction and the other road [87:09] is the road of response. [87:11] Meditation helps you pause and see you [87:13] could make a choice. I don't have to get [87:16] stressed out in traffic. I could instead [87:17] be mindful or I don't have to get I [87:20] don't have to my colleague at work is [87:22] grumpy. I don't have to bite their head [87:23] off and then regret it. I could I could [87:25] hold back. [87:27] So you say meditation is the solution to [87:30] many of the things we've talked about [87:31] today including the response versus [87:33] reaction fork in the road. Yeah. So if [87:35] you were making a plan for me from this [87:37] day onwards on how to implement [87:39] meditation in my life. Yeah. Um what [87:41] would that plan look like? First of all, [87:44] chuck all those things away. Okay. All [87:46] of this stuff on the desk. [87:47] Paraphernalia. Okay. So on the desk I [87:49] have like a sound healing bowl, some [87:50] incense, some rings, some little I don't [87:52] even know what these are. Yeah. So, [87:55] we're going to chuck all the [87:55] paraphernalia away in the bin. Okay, [87:57] we're going to bin all of it. Okay, let [88:00] me You know, you don't need any [88:02] equipment. [88:04] There's a lot of spiritual tat, isn't [88:07] there? I mean, I said it, [88:12] you know, it's about you and your mind. [88:14] It's not about having little symbols and [88:17] incense and you don't need it. And okay, [88:21] what is the plan? The plan is to start [88:24] with 10 minutes a day. Okay. 10 minutes [88:25] a day. When? [88:28] Ideally morning. Okay. Simply because [88:31] you're starting your day, right? And [88:32] your cortisol level is highest in the [88:34] morning. When you wake up, there's a [88:36] spike of cortisol. Bring it down with [88:37] meditation. So, I get up, I check my [88:39] emails, check my WhatsApp, then [88:40] meditate. I'm joking. If you want. No, [88:44] no. Tell me the the optimal way. You're [88:45] going to be my Get up straight away and [88:47] meditate. Okay. Get up straight away and [88:48] meditate because you're starting your [88:50] day, right? And 10 minutes is enough to [88:52] start with. And the beauty of this is [88:54] that you know they can show in brain [88:55] scans that 10 minutes a day after 4 days [88:59] there'll be visible changes in your [89:00] brain. So knowing that keeps you going [89:02] because you think okay this literally is [89:04] like weight training. I'm going to get [89:06] muscle. And what do I do? So I sit down [89:08] somewhere. You sit down [89:11] and you're going to focus on your [89:12] breathing. But what I find really [89:15] crucial is that you are not just [89:17] launching yourself into it. you are [89:19] introducing [89:21] a bit of compassion into the process and [89:24] this is what elevates the meditation [89:26] from being just a kind of brain gym into [89:28] being something that takes you to a much [89:31] more kind of like spiritual realm of it [89:33] and and it connects in with what we were [89:35] talking about earlier about learning to [89:36] be more compassionate to yourself and [89:38] others. So you start with that [89:40] intention. [89:42] So you start by just settling and [89:44] sitting. You know, some people sit [89:46] cross-legged on the floor, but it's also [89:47] okay on a chair. But on the chair, there [89:49] should be some sense of posture. So [89:52] you're sitting up straight. And you [89:54] would start with setting the intention. [89:57] And I don't mean an intention such as, [89:59] oh, today I want this or want that. It's [90:01] the bigger intention. Why am I [90:03] meditating? I am meditating for not only [90:06] myself, but for all living beings. I'm [90:09] doing this for me and the world. And I'm [90:12] not I'm not not trying to fool myself by [90:14] thinking if I do my meditation somehow [90:16] wars will end or whatever. No, it's more [90:19] that if I do this this will help me [90:22] become more effective in the world and [90:23] spread more love and compassion. So [90:25] that's the reason. So you're setting [90:27] that intention with your thinking for a [90:29] few moments and then you're going to [90:32] start to be aware of yourself. [90:35] So okay. So let's just try this. [90:40] So take a moment to set the intention of [90:42] compassion [90:47] making the intention that you're doing [90:49] the practice for yourself and others. [90:58] And now just become aware of your hands. [91:01] Maybe your hands are resting on your [91:02] knees or your legs. [91:05] And feel that there's a lot of nerve [91:07] endings in the fingers. So, it's easy to [91:09] start here where you just feel the [91:11] contact between your skin and your [91:14] clothing. [91:17] You're aware of your hands resting on [91:18] your legs. [91:27] Bring the focus up to your shoulders. [91:31] Most of us have tense shoulders because [91:33] we're on our phone or behind a desk. So, [91:37] as you're aware of your shoulders, the [91:39] tension can just drop away. [91:50] Bring your focus to the front of your [91:51] body. [92:00] Start to notice your breathing. [92:05] The trick here is not to try to breathe [92:08] or go into deep breathing, but just let [92:10] your breath be natural [92:20] and focus on the rising and falling of [92:23] your chest or your belly with each [92:24] breath. [92:27] And when you realize your mind has [92:28] wandered, gently come back to the [92:30] breath. [92:33] Now you can make the focus more precise [92:37] by feeling the air in your nose or your [92:39] mouth. If you can breathe through your [92:41] nose, then do that, [92:43] otherwise the mouth. And you're sensing [92:46] the air as it comes in and out of your [92:48] nostrils or your lips. [92:51] You can feel the air brushing against [92:53] the skin at the edge of your nose or [92:54] your mouth. [93:02] And then you'll realize your mind has [93:03] gone somewhere and you gently bring it [93:05] back. [93:07] Okay. And to end the session, we'll just [93:09] do a short one for now. Take another [93:12] moment to think about compassion. [93:19] You're dedicating your practice to [93:22] freedom, compassion, and happiness for [93:24] yourself and all beings. [93:28] and stop there. [93:31] I mean, that was short, but it gives you [93:32] an idea of the process. And one major [93:35] warning [93:38] is you trip yourself up if you try and [93:41] think, well, did it go well? [93:45] Partly because of the culture we're in [93:46] and how everything's about sensation. I [93:49] think we only think something's working [93:50] if it makes us feel something. Mhm. And [93:54] med meditation is very different. You [93:56] know, when I start when I first started [93:58] meditating, I described how I really [93:59] hated it and found it, you know, really [94:01] stressful. One thing I remember that [94:03] happened to me was I started to do quite [94:04] a lot of it cuz I thought, okay, I'm [94:06] going to get into this thing and do it [94:07] and become like a a pro and I was doing [94:09] loads of it and finding it was making me [94:12] feel more unhappy and I was feeling this [94:14] kind of sense of like sinking feeling in [94:16] my chest and I thought, you know, I' I'd [94:18] struggled with depression anyway. I [94:20] thought this making me more depressed [94:22] and I went to Rimpiche my teacher and I [94:24] said medit I'm doing loads of it it's [94:26] making me depressed he said it's nothing [94:28] to do with the meditation it's it's how [94:30] you are [94:32] he said you're a junkie [94:35] you're using your meditation like a drug [94:38] I said what do you mean he said well I [94:40] think you're sitting there waiting for [94:41] it to to kind of like come on you're [94:43] waiting for it to give you a high and [94:46] it's so true because I realized I'd been [94:48] sitting [94:49] or like getting addicted to it and [94:51] thinking, okay, I'm going to do my [94:53] meditation, [94:54] right? I've done 5 minutes. Where's [94:56] where's the bliss? When am I going to [94:58] feel good? [95:00] And what he was trying to tell me is [95:01] that if I'm trying to make myself feel [95:03] good, I'm already coming from a place of [95:06] lack. [95:08] You know what I mean? I'm already saying [95:10] to myself, I don't feel good. So, I'm [95:12] actually promoting [95:14] a sense of lack. So how do we perceive [95:16] the meditation then? If it's not at some [95:18] just give up judgment. Just do it. Just [95:20] do it. Just do it. And it's not going [95:23] well, going badly. I like it. I don't [95:25] like it. You just do it. And try to let [95:27] go of quality control. [95:32] I really need to start doing it. My [95:35] partner, she's so great. She does it [95:36] every morning for like 20 20 30 minutes. [95:38] So why didn't you sit next to her? She [95:40] said this to me. What stops you? What [95:42] stops me? [95:44] Hm. [95:48] I mean, it's there on tap. She's doing [95:50] it every morning. What's stopping you s [95:52] sitting next to her? [95:55] I think [96:01] I think one of the things that comes to [96:03] mind is how uncomfortable I feel in [96:06] silence and [96:09] the idea of like silence and being [96:12] because she's there. Would you be okay [96:14] better on your own then? No, it's just [96:17] like silence with my own thoughts. I [96:19] spend a lot of time trying to kind of [96:22] not I spend a lot of time trying to [96:25] distract myself. [96:27] Don't we all? That's Welcome to the [96:29] modern world. I'm pretty extreme. Are [96:32] you? Yeah, I'm pretty extreme. So like [96:33] if I go into the shower, I have to have [96:35] something playing, something talking, a [96:37] podcast. It could be the news. It could [96:38] be YouTube. If I'm no matter where I am, [96:41] I always even when I go to sleep, I have [96:43] to be listening to something. So my I've [96:45] like almost wired my brain in the [96:47] opposite way where it's there's always [96:48] something. Yeah. I went through a phase [96:50] where I couldn't eat unless I was also [96:52] watching something. I mean, yeah. I [96:53] mean, I do that. I can't unless there's [96:55] something playing. But that's why [96:57] meditation's perfect for you. Yeah, I [96:58] know. Tell me about it. This is giving [97:00] you a way to find a different way to [97:03] experience yourself. M [97:08] Yeah. I mean, you know, you I'm sure you [97:11] exercise. Yeah. So, you go to the gym. [97:14] Yeah. And you That's challenging. Yeah. [97:16] And you you're you're pushing your [97:18] muscles and there's a kind of like [97:20] there's an effort required. Do you know [97:21] what it is? Same thing. Same thing with [97:23] the gym. I know that if I go, my muscles [97:26] are going to grow. I'm going to be [97:27] stronger. I'm going to be health [97:28] healthier, happier. All those things. [97:30] And because I've never done meditation, [97:31] I don't actually have evidence of the [97:33] upside. Just have a brain scan after 4 [97:35] days and you'll see. That's why I ask [97:37] you the question about you before and [97:39] you after. Yeah. What is the difference? [97:42] And if whoever's listening to this right [97:43] now, [97:45] can you give them a before and after [97:47] picture of how their life will will be [97:48] practically different if they implement [97:50] just 10 minutes a day meditating. Okay. [97:52] So, so I find it really inspiring to [97:55] know that there there are visible [97:56] changes in the brain scan after 4 days. [97:58] You don't necessarily feel those [98:00] changes, but knowing that gives you [98:02] faith and confidence just like you know [98:04] if you eat healthy food your your you [98:08] know your body will improve your health [98:09] will improve. So knowing that is a good [98:11] thing in terms of seeing the results. [98:13] Everybody's different. There's no you [98:15] can't draw a graph. You can't say if you [98:17] do x amount of days you will reach this [98:19] level of calm or focus. But what happens [98:22] is as you start to meditate after a few [98:24] days or weeks you just start to feel you [98:27] can handle stuff better. So for me um [98:31] the the p my main practice is is very [98:34] much connected what I was talking about [98:35] before with uh trying to sit with [98:38] discomfort and stop pushing it away. And [98:41] that's a total revolution in my life. I [98:43] was always on the run always. I think we [98:47] failed to realize that actually our [98:49] entire [98:51] human experience is just in our minds. [98:56] That does that make sense what I'm [98:58] trying to say there? Because I'm there [99:00] asking you about like what's the upside [99:01] of this whatever but it's it's falling [99:04] into the trap of not realizing that [99:05] everything I I will experience today is [99:08] actually formed in my own mind. That's [99:10] the whole reason for meditation is to [99:12] know that everything is dependent on [99:14] your mind. The good and the bad. [99:16] everything. So instead of being so [99:18] obsessed with the details of what's [99:20] going on, go to the source. [99:24] Yeah. Go to the source, the the [99:26] projector rather than the movie. [99:30] Go to the source and and change that and [99:33] transform that and work on that. So how [99:35] has your projector changed in the last [99:37] 30 years? I I'm definitely a happier [99:39] person. I'm I'm definitely um more at [99:43] peace with myself. that that negative [99:45] voice doesn't come up, you know, that [99:49] that self-hatred has has really kind of [99:52] like what's the word? Kind of like uh [99:56] yeah, gone away. And um I'm happier. And [100:00] I've got I I feel so so lucky to have [100:03] tools that I know I can use when I'm [100:07] suffering. [100:08] You know, for the last few years, I've [100:10] I've suffered with quite a lot of ill [100:11] health because I had really really [100:13] severe COVID right at the start of the [100:15] pandemic, and it did something to my [100:17] heart and my lungs. And since then, I've [100:19] had you could call it long COVID, you [100:21] could call it heart, lung damage, [100:23] whatever. So, I I live with kind of [100:25] levels of illness that are hard to deal [100:27] with. But this practice is something I [100:30] can do. I can I can sit there with an [100:32] ill body and send love into that body [100:35] and feel kind of okay. So, it's made me [100:37] stronger and I can I can function better [100:40] than before. But, you know, the other [100:43] thing is I don't really care. I don't [100:45] really care whether it's working or not [100:46] because I I trust it and I'm just going [100:48] to keep going and I I'm in for the long [100:51] game. I'm just going to keep going. You [100:53] signed a lifelong vow. I did. I'm I'm [100:55] I'm I have I have taken vows to to be a [100:58] monk for my life. Why? When I put the [101:01] robes on, I felt every I felt every cell [101:04] in my body [101:06] click. I mean, it sounds a bit weird, [101:08] but it just felt like that. I felt all [101:11] my cells fall into place. I just felt [101:13] really this is [101:15] this is this is really right for me. I [101:18] think it's what I'd been looking for all [101:19] along when I is is a way of working with [101:24] my mind. I'm I'm not really interested [101:26] in religion. I'm not really interested [101:27] in faith, but I'm really interested in [101:29] the mind. And being a monk has given me [101:32] this opportunity to work on my mind but [101:35] also an opportunity to to be of some use [101:38] in the world like some help to others. [101:41] So, okay, let me challenge this a little [101:43] bit in terms of how I imagine someone [101:45] listening might might respond. They go, [101:47] "Okay, so you went through this process. [101:49] You worked on your mind. Now you've [101:51] worked on your mind." No, no, working. [101:53] It's not over. Okay. It total work in [101:56] progress. And this is the mis this is [101:57] part of the misconception is someone [101:58] will listen and say, "Well, you've [102:00] worked on your mind now, so go live [102:01] now." No, it's an ongoing process. I'm [102:03] still a mess. I'm still a mess, but I'm [102:06] okay with being a mess. That is a huge [102:07] difference is that I I still get [102:09] stressed. I still get upset, but I'm [102:11] really gentle with myself in a way that [102:14] I never knew how to be. I was always, [102:15] "You're so disgusting. What's wrong with [102:17] you? You should be ashamed of yourself." [102:19] That's gone. Now I'm okay with with [102:22] myself. And that that's such that that [102:24] is happiness that really has made me [102:26] happier. So it's for me it's not about, [102:28] oh, you've done it and now it's it's a [102:30] it's ongoing. [102:32] What is the most important thing we [102:33] didn't talk about that we should have [102:34] talked about as it relates to the [102:36] suffering that my viewers are probably [102:39] experiencing in their own life? You know [102:41] what's missing always is we can talk [102:44] about this stuff but are we going to do [102:47] it? And what's really missing for so [102:49] many people is they will listen to this [102:51] episode or they will read a book about [102:53] meditation or see a video and it all [102:56] sounds great but then we get busy and [102:59] forget to do it. What's missing for [103:00] everybody is the doing it. How how do we [103:04] jump from being interested in something [103:06] to actually doing it? I mean there's [103:08] there's a a joke which is the definition [103:11] of a Buddhist is somebody who's either [103:12] meditating or feeling bad that they're [103:14] not meditating. And that is it, isn't [103:16] it? It's a bit like exercise. We know we [103:18] should be doing it. So for me the the [103:21] the missing link is [103:24] people try and force themselves to [103:25] meditate because they know it's good for [103:27] them and then it's it's a hopeless [103:29] process. They won't do it because it [103:31] becomes another should [103:33] on the to-do list. I think the only way [103:36] to become really enthusiastic about [103:38] doing it every day is to really think [103:41] about it and realize that it will give [103:44] you what you were looking for anyway [103:47] from the coffee, the drugs, the alcohol, [103:50] the sex, the whatever it is you're into. [103:52] Whatever we're looking for out there, [103:57] meditation, it it was happiness, it was [103:59] freedom, it was release. The only place [104:02] you can find that is in your mind [104:04] because going down those roads is just [104:06] taking you further into needing more. [104:09] So, so I think that the the thinking [104:11] process that helps people meditate every [104:13] day is to think about how it will give [104:16] you what you were looking for anyway [104:18] and then you want to do it then then you [104:20] feel like oh okay the we have no sense [104:24] of exhaustion when it comes to chasing [104:26] our addictions do we? So imagine if we [104:28] could meditate with that kind of energy. [104:32] I often I often think I often think [104:34] maybe I need to go do some kind of um [104:38] meditation retreat as well just to get [104:39] me sort of started and just uh have [104:42] someone there with me who can [104:45] help me think through some of these [104:46] things that can be a good thing just to [104:48] just to get started. It doesn't have to [104:50] be four years like no like a weekend, 3 [104:53] days, 5 days, 2 days. That can be a good [104:56] thing. And that's why Buddhist centers [104:57] are good places because they offer that. [105:00] And there's never a kind of you got to [105:02] sign along the dotted line and say, "I'm [105:04] now a Buddhist." We're so not interested [105:06] in converting people to Buddhism. But [105:09] yeah, go to a retreat. Is Buddhism [105:10] growing? Yeah, I imagine it is. In the [105:12] world, you know why it's growing? It's [105:13] because it doesn't try to attract [105:15] followers and because of that, it grows. [105:18] interesting and also because of [105:20] everything else that's just going on in [105:21] the world at the moment um with you know [105:24] people feeling more isolated, lonely, [105:26] purposeless, depression, suicidality, [105:29] all of these things. We're seeing a lot [105:30] especially in young men as well. The [105:32] stats around young men and their [105:33] suicidal ideation and their feelings of [105:36] purposelessness and their loneliness [105:38] stats are worse than women's as well. [105:40] But I think yes the the way the world is [105:43] with all of these challenges and [105:45] negative things at the same time what's [105:48] hugely growing in modern culture is [105:51] people getting more interested in their [105:53] own minds. There are more and more [105:54] people going for psychotherapy [105:56] counseling meditation any kind of [105:59] discipline that helps us to understand [106:00] our minds better. That interest is [106:02] growing. So, we're we're in a really [106:04] exciting phase in history where people [106:06] are wanting to transform their minds, [106:09] wanting to take control of [106:11] consciousness. It's because we've had [106:13] something fail us. We maybe we're waking [106:15] up to realizing that the system hasn't [106:17] worked for us. We've created a kind of [106:20] gilded cage for ourselves. This this [106:23] beautiful material world that is also [106:26] running out of resources. So, it's not [106:27] going to be able to serve us much longer [106:30] if we carry on abusing the planet. So, [106:32] we have created our own prison and now [106:34] we're looking for the way out. [106:37] Turns out it wasn't the individualism [106:39] and the materialism [106:42] um after all. [106:46] Maybe it was always there inside us. [106:49] That's Buddhism would say that we we are [106:52] we are Buddha within. We we all have a [106:54] sleeping Buddha within us and we we have [106:58] potential. We have great capacity for [107:00] awakening, great capacity to help [107:03] others. It's just like a crystal covered [107:06] in layers and layers and layers of mud. [107:08] And we need to clear the mud away. We [107:10] have a closing tradition on this podcast [107:12] where the last guest leaves a question [107:13] for the next guest, not knowing who [107:15] they've left it for. And the question [107:18] that has been left for you, [107:21] what are the ways that you express your [107:23] love and appreciation for the people who [107:24] matter to you in your personal or [107:26] professional life? [107:29] I [107:31] don't do this very well all the time, [107:33] but I try to be be there for them when [107:36] they're going through a hard time. I [107:39] because I used to find it really scary [107:41] and I'd run away and I'd close down. I [107:44] try to in the same way as I try to move [107:46] towards my own discomfort. I try to be [107:49] there with other people when they're [107:50] uncomfortable and not judge. I try that. [107:53] I'm I've I'm sure I fail a lot, but I [107:55] try. A friend of mine described that as [107:58] sitting in the mud with them. Yeah. [108:00] Yeah. We often try and fix and correct [108:02] and Yeah. I have a I see myself trying [108:05] to do that, give advice, whatever. It's [108:07] not about that. It's about being with [108:08] the person, being being [108:12] with them without judging them. Thank [108:14] you so much for what you do. Um you've [108:16] got these incredible books which I'm [108:17] going to recommend everybody check out. [108:18] Both Sunday Times bestsellers I believe. [108:20] And a monk's guide to happiness, [108:22] meditation in the 21st century. And this [108:25] book is called Handbook for Hard Times, [108:27] a monk's guide to fearless living. I [108:30] think that your message is more [108:32] important now than it's ever been [108:33] because there's I mean much of the [108:35] reason why I've probably stumbled across [108:37] Buddhism is for the same reasons that [108:38] many people are, which is it feels [108:40] intuitively like the the answers we've [108:42] been given in the way of life that we're [108:43] all living is failing us in some way. [108:46] And we know that we can feel it inside [108:48] ourselves. But the answers that we see [108:50] to [108:51] as antidotes to that feeling aren't much [108:54] better all the time. And there again, [108:56] often they're about self or it's about, [108:58] you know, join this group of people that [109:00] are doing this sort of thing over here [109:02] or there's this religious, you know, [109:05] group that you can join. But actually, [109:07] Buddhism offers us an alternative [109:09] approach, which is to go inside [109:10] ourselves and to alleviate ourselves [109:14] from the suffering that we've [109:15] self-imposed by [109:18] understanding that maybe the answers we [109:19] were looking for were inside the whole [109:21] time. And um I'm so glad that people [109:23] like you do podcasts like this because [109:25] that you're getting the message out [109:26] there into the world. And it's a message [109:28] that I think is so unbelievably [109:29] important. And I think maybe maybe just [109:32] maybe maybe you've persuaded me today to [109:35] just give it a shot. Yeah. And that's [109:37] the hard thing because it's good. It's [109:38] good enough. It's all well enough [109:40] knowing about something. But then what [109:42] will I do tomorrow morning? [109:45] When you sit there tomorrow morning. [109:47] Yeah. And your mind starts racing. [109:50] Whatever you do, don't feel like you [109:52] failed. [109:54] Just remind yourself that the thoughts [109:56] actually make your meditation stronger. [109:59] Because if coming back to the breath is [110:01] what you're trying to do, you have to [110:03] have somewhere to come back from. Yeah. [110:05] The thought that took you away is [110:07] exactly what brings you back. So bring [110:09] it on. The more thoughts, the better. [110:11] Okay. [110:13] Thank you. I'm so appreciative of you [110:15] and thank you for spreading the words [110:16] that you're you're spreading because as [110:17] I said, you're going to be saving and uh [110:20] saving a lot of people from a lot of [110:21] pain and suffering, but also um giving [110:23] them a an alternative approach to [110:26] sitting with it with a compassion. So [110:28] thank you. Thank you. It's really lovely [110:29] to spend time with you. [110:34] [Music] [110:51] [Music]