MIT Lecturer Swart Links Post-Death Signs To Brain Mechanics

麻省理工学院讲师Swart将逝后征兆与大脑机制相关联 神经科学家Tara Swart博士认为，人类意识在死亡后依然存续，一旦大脑的认知过滤器因悲伤或创伤而瓦解，便会体现为感官征兆。 Tara Swart博士探讨了神经科学、悲伤与精神现象的交叉领域，在分享与已故丈夫Robin交流的个人经历的同时，提供了理解感官征兆与濒死体验的科学框架。对话深入解析了大脑如何充当人体至少34种感官的认知过滤器、直觉与意识改变状态的神经机制，以及自然界中的生物互联性。Swart博士还概述了三层悲伤康复框架，强调通过躯体练习释放储存在身体和肠脑微生物组轴中的创伤。最终，这场讨论兼顾了实证严谨性与深切的丧亲之痛，探讨了古老实践、现代神经科学以及寻找意义如何帮助人们度过悲伤与现代危机。 人类大脑作为一个过滤器运作，它会抑制更广泛的意识和心智能力，以使人类能够在物质层面上正常运转。 (2:09) 除了五种基本感官之外，人体至少拥有34种不同的感官系统，包括压力感受器、化学感受器、本体感觉和温度感觉。 (2:09) Tara Swart博士花了四年时间查阅科学文献，力求将自己主观的逝后交流与感官征兆立足于实证数据，而非归咎于精神病理学。 (0:00) 严重的心理创伤会抑制布罗卡区等语言中枢，使得传统谈话疗法不足以应对创伤性悲伤，因而必须借助非语言的躯体练习。 (5:29) 悲伤会急剧改变大脑的神经化学和电信号传导，诱发类似于精神分裂症精神病性症状的“思维被插入”等状态。 (16:25)

Neuroscientist and psychiatrist Dr. Tara Swart argues that human consciousness is not entirely generated by the physical brain, proposing that neurological filters can be expanded through grief, somatic practices, and altered states to perceive non-ordinary phenomena and potential communication after death. The Filter Theory of Consciousness (37:50) Dr. Swart posits that the physical brain functions as a reducing filter rather than the sole producer of subjective consciousness, dampening broader mental perception so humans can function on the material plane. While conventional models identify five primary senses, she highlights that scientific literature recognizes at least 34 distinct sensory systems, including interoceptive monitors like baroreceptors, chemoreceptors, proprioception, and thermoception. To support the argument that the mind can operate independently of brain matter, Swart cites terminal lucidity—where severely brain-damaged or non-verbal dementia patients abruptly recover full cognitive clarity hours before dying—and documented near-death experiences (NDEs), referencing databases of over 10,000 cases tracked by researchers like Dr. Bruce Greyson. She points to theoretical frameworks such as Dr. David Eagleman’s hypothesis that the brain functions as a radio receiver, alongside Donald Hoffman's view that consciousness forms the fundamental basis of reality. Cognitive Filtering and Sign Interpretation (27:01) Following the sudden loss of her husband Robin to leukemia, Swart reported anomalous events, including physical impacts, visual apparitions, and thought insertion—a psychiatric symptom where thoughts feel externally imposed. Recognizing that deep grief severely alters neurotransmitters and neural signaling in patterns mirroring psychosis, she sought to ground her experiences in cognitive science rather than dismiss them outright. She explains that perceiving meaningful external signs relies on the Reticular Activating System (RAS), which filters sensory background noise to spotlight prioritized stimuli, as well as neuroaesthetic shared trait vulnerability involving hyperconnectivity, novelty salience, and reduced latent inhibition. Host Steven Bartlett counters that confirmation bias and probabilistic distributions naturally explain unlikely occurrences; in response, Swart asserts that establishing strict, falsifiable criteria—such as narrow time windows or highly uncommon symbols—helps differentiate deliberate cognitive tracking from mere coincidence. Embodied Trauma and Biological Intuition (44:38) Dr. Swart stresses that traumatic grief frequently shuts down verbal processing centers like Broca’s area, leaving emotional pain physically locked within bodily tissues. Invoking the serotonin hypothesis, she outlines how trauma directly influences capillary constriction, nutrient delivery, and tissue tension across fascia, muscles, and skin. Because talk therapy cannot access all non-verbal trauma, she advocates for somatic interventions such as movement, vocalization, humming, and bodywork to restore physiological equilibrium. Furthermore, Swart defines intuition as an embodied feedback system governed by the tri-directional gut-brain axis, which links the brain, gut neurons, and the microbiome via the vagus nerve and immune cytokines. Given that the brain accounts for at least 20 percent of metabolic energy consumption, oxidative stress and gut-driven systemic neuroinflammation can impair vulnerable structures like the hippocampus, making somatic regulation essential for clear intuitive processing. Neuromodulation, Transcendence, and Cultural Isolation (59:16) To access the therapeutic benefits of altered states without pharmacological interventions, Swart examines dark retreats rooted in ancient Tibetan traditions, where 7 to 49 days of sensory deprivation trigger continuous pineal melatonin secretion and endogenous visual hallucinations that parallel NDEs. Similarly, clinical research shows that conscious connected breathwork can replicate the visual cortex hyperconnectivity induced by psilocybin acting on 5-HT2A serotonin receptors. She emphasizes that even studying NDE research produces measurable decreases in materialism and death anxiety lasting over a year. While both speakers caution that extreme transcendent dogma can be weaponized to justify destructive behavior, they observe that modern hyper-individualism has dismantled traditional communal structures, arguing that integrating ancient rituals and transcendent curiosity provides a vital antidote to existential disconnection. While Dr. Swart maintains absolute personal conviction that consciousness persists after death and can be engaged through structured awareness, the broader scientific framework remains limited by existing empirical paradigms. The unresolved challenge lies in definitively separating heightened sensory attunement and cognitive pattern recognition from objective external communication.

神经科学家兼精神科医生Dr. Tara Swart提出，人类大脑在本质上是一个限制感知的过滤器，而非意识的唯一发生器；在重大创伤或濒死情境下，意识展现出超越物质大脑的感知与沟通能力。 感知限制与大脑过滤器模型 (2:09) 传统观念认为人类仅拥有五种基本感官，但Dr. Tara Swart指出，文献记载人体内至少运作着34种不同感官系统，涵盖监测血压的压力感受器、感知血pH值的化学感受器，以及本体感觉与温度感觉。大脑通过过滤机制压制心智的真实潜能，以确保人类能在物质现实中维持日常生存运作。根据神经美学的共享特质脆弱性模型，高联通性、对新异信息的敏感度以及较低的潜伏抑制，构成了创造性突破与意识拓展的生物学基础，而这种机制也与抑郁症、精神分裂等病理状态共享相似的神经连接特性。 丧亲创伤、精神症状与知觉裂解 (5:29) 在丈夫Robin因白血病去世后，Dr. Swart亲身经历了包括触觉撞击、床前半透明视觉残影以及思维插入在内的超常体验。作为专业精神科医生，她清晰地识别出此类体验在临床诊断上极易被归类为精神病性症状；极度悲伤会大幅改变脑内神经递质水平及电信号传导，诱发在生理机制上与精神病高度重合的心理脆弱态。创伤还会抑制布罗卡区等大脑语言中枢，使得复杂的创伤记忆无法单靠谈话疗法化解。因此，她主张结合瑜伽、颅骶疗法、声波共振等躯体化干预手段释放深层神经压力。 濒死体验与心脑分离的假说 (33:49) Dr. Swart通过回顾临终清醒与濒死体验（NDE）案例，探讨意识脱离肉体存在的可能性。例如弗吉尼亚大学Dr. Bruce Greyson追踪的5,000余起NDE案例，以及严重阿尔茨海默病患者在临终前24小时内突然恢复连贯表达与清晰记忆的现象。她援引Alexander Batthyany与David Eagleman的研究观点指出，如果神经元结构已被不可逆破坏，短期的神经化学物质激增便无法合理解释患者认知机能的骤然恢复，这表明大脑可能更接近于接收外部信号的无线电设备，而意识本身或许并非完全由生物组织派生。 肠脑轴微生态与躯体智慧 (51:59) 直觉与生理调节深深扎根于肠脑轴的三向互动网络中，该网络由大脑、肠道自主神经系统以及包含数万亿微生物的肠道菌群共同构成。迷走神经、外周传入神经纤维与免疫细胞因子构成了双向传递介质，直接影响中枢认知功能。鉴于大脑消耗了人体至少20%的代谢能量，负责记忆编码的海马体对氧化应激与自由基损伤极为敏感；不良饮食导致的菌群失调会促使炎症因子穿透血脑屏障诱发神经炎症，进而抑制高阶直觉感知。通过稳定机体微生态与代谢稳态，神经系统才能释放出更多认知带宽处理微细环境信号。 意识转变的技术与认知训练 (59:16) Dr. Swart探讨了通过非药物途径模拟濒死转变的可能性。源自古藏地及古代地穴仪轨的黑暗静修，利用长达7至49天的绝对感官剥夺，使松果体持续分泌褪黑素并在3至5天后诱发内源性视觉重构与神明意象，参与者事后普遍表现出死亡焦虑降低与共情能力提升。临床研究表明，特定的意识连贯呼吸法能够激活5-HT2A血清素受体并促进视觉皮层超联通，产生与中等剂量赛洛西宾相似的心理效应。通过调动网状激活系统（RAS）去主动发现自然秩序与环境意象，个体能够在不脱离现实锚点的同时强化心理弹性。 对话在实证科学与主观体验之间保持平衡：Steven Bartlett对放弃实证检验可能导致盲信怪力乱神表达了审慎态度，而Dr. Swart则强调，真正的科学探索应当涵盖对现有生理学框架边缘现象的开放性求证，尽管确凿的物理与统计机制仍有待未来前沿科学给出完备解答。

## Background 该内容由知名访谈播客《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2025 年 8 月 14 日发布在 YouTube 平台上。视频简介指出，世界顶尖神经科学家、精神病学家兼麻省理工学院（MIT）高级讲师塔拉·斯沃特博士（Dr. Tara Swart）探讨了人类大脑如何作为现实过滤器、人类为何具备 34 种感官而非 5 种，以及丧夫之痛如何打开她的意识边界，揭示了征兆、直觉与死后沟通背后的科学证据。 ## TL;DR 节目中，斯沃特博士首次公开了丈夫因白血病离世后自己经历的超常感知与实体显化，探讨了死后双向沟通的可能性。她从神经科学与神经美学出发，拆解了人类 34 种感官、网状激活系统（RAS）、低潜在抑制及肠-脑轴机制，说明直觉与未解创伤如何储存于筋膜和身体组织中。结合濒死体验（NDE）、临终清醒与黑暗静修的医学案例，她论证了人类心智独立于肉体运作的潜能，呼吁现代人以开放心态打破唯物主义局限，借助自然、艺术与真实联结重构生命的意义。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在严谨的理性思辨与极度私密的情感流露之间达到了精妙的平衡。斯沃特博士展现出顶尖科学家的从容自省与经历至痛后的脆弱坚韧，主持人史蒂芬则恪守温和而尖锐的怀疑论者立场，步步追问验证机制。现场氛围从开场触碰学术禁忌时的屏息凝神，逐渐过渡到回忆重症监护室生死告别时的潸然泪下，最终升华为对宇宙未知充满敬畏的哲思，给听众带来既震撼又治愈的心灵共鸣。 ## Bulletin - [02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=129s) 神经科学家塔拉·斯沃特博士首次公开阐述死后沟通的科学探索，指出大脑本质上是一个降维过滤器，人类已知感官多达34种而非传统的5种。 - [30:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1825s) 研究揭示创造力与精神病理学共享超联结性、新奇显著性与低潜在抑制三项神经思考机制，心理创伤与悲痛在神经递质变化上与精神病状态高度重叠。 - [14:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=858s) 躯体创伤记忆深锁于筋膜与肌肉结缔组织中，言语心理治疗存在生理局限，需借助躯体工作、声音共振与自然沉浸等物理手段释放。 - [59:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3587s) 黑暗静修与连贯意识呼吸训练可在神经生理上模拟濒死体验，通过五羟色胺2A受体激活与视觉皮层超联结打破固有认知防御。 ## Key takeaways - [02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=129s) 大脑的核心演化功能之一是作为现实过滤器，滤除冗余的高维感知信息以保障人类在物质世界的日常生存。 - [12:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=720s) 人类科学记录的感官系统多达34种，涵盖血液酸碱度、内感受平衡等大量在潜意识层面持续运作的微生理感知。 - [14:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=858s) 语言中枢在毁灭性创伤事件中会被系统性抑制关停，未被言语化的创伤记忆会直接储存于筋膜和肌肉等身体组织中。 - [16:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=978s) 死后符号沟通与直觉感知的建立类似于锻炼肌肉，需要打破偏误并建立极其严苛的限定时间与非常规情境验证规则。 - [30:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1825s) 神经美学的“共有特质易感性模型”表明，超联结性、新奇显著性与低潜在抑制是高创造力与精神危机共同的底层神经机制。 - [33:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2021s) 临终清醒与濒死体验案例挑战了唯物还原论，表明心灵、思想与意识可能独立于严重退化的物理大脑结构运作。 - [39:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2375s) 斯坦福神经科学家 David Eagleman 提出的收音机假说主张，大脑或许仅是接收外部意识信号的调谐器，而非意识的始发发生器。 - [52:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3121s) 肠-脑轴是由大脑、肠道自主神经元网络与庞大微生物组构成的三方交互系统，全身抗炎与内稳态是高级直觉的物质基石。 - [59:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3587s) 黑暗静修通过光线剥夺促使松果体大量分泌褪黑素并激活视觉皮层，可在不经历致命危险的前提下模拟濒死体验的精神蜕变效应。 - [01:02:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3758s) 纯粹由意识意向主导的连贯呼吸训练，能在神经生理上激发出等同于中等剂量裸盖菇素致幻剂的超联结脑状态。 - [01:09:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4157s) 现代社会的个人主义瓦解了传统部落与信仰纽带，导致单一原子化自我陷入空前的精神无锚状态与意义危机。 - [01:29:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5361s) 动物与极少数具备超嗅觉或回声定位的人类证明了神经可塑性的广度，科学应保持开放以不断突破感官与生理认知的局限。 - [01:33:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5597s) 刻意练习“留心生活中的美”能触发大脑多巴胺与催产素的释放，通过提高显著性有效打破感知习惯化并修复人际联结。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=0s) 科学与禁忌：死后沟通的可能性 对话在一场关于生死与意识界限的震撼讨论中拉开序幕。塔拉·斯沃特博士（Dr. Tara Swart）开门见山地指出，与逝者进行沟通在科学上是完全可能的。然而，作为一名神经科学家与精神病学专科医生，公开讨论这一话题在业内属于绝对的禁忌。在传统精神病学界，出现类似感知的人往往会被贴上“神志失常”的标签；斯沃特博士坦言，自己过去就曾是那些强制将病人收治禁闭、甚至违背其意愿注射镇静药物的医疗团队中的一员，而那些病人所描述的幻觉或体验，与她近年来亲身经历的事情惊人地相似。为了验证自己究竟是陷入了精神错乱还是触碰到了人类意识的未知领域，她沉入严谨的科学文献中寻找依据。面对主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）关于“你对自己的答案有多大把握”的追问，她斩钉截铁地回答：“100%。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 传统精神病学与意识拓展的认知冲突 accDescr: 展示斯沃特博士从传统临床判定向科学探索死后沟通与大脑潜能的转变路径 subgraph Clinical["传统医学视角"] A["非同寻常的感知与声音"] --> B["临床诊断: 精神分裂 / 躁狂"] B --> C["强制收治与药物干预"] end subgraph Scientific["斯沃特博士的探索路径"] D["亲身遭遇超常体验"] --> E["检索神经科学与药理学前沿文献"] E --> F["重构认知: 人类意识与感官边界拓展"] end ``` 斯沃特博士分享了这一转变的个人诱因：近四年前，就在他们结婚四周年纪念日的前两天，她深爱的丈夫因白血病去世。丈夫的离去彻底击碎了她以往所坚信的现实架构，让她陷入了彻底的迷失与崩溃。然而，在悲痛之中，她开始捕捉到一系列来自丈夫的强烈信号。出于绝望，她曾拜访过几位通灵者（mediums），但对方的表现完全无法令她信服。这促使她转变思路：既然自己一生都在研究大脑优化与神经科学，如果死后沟通真的具有某种机制，那么她完全应该凭借科学的训练与大脑认知能力由自己来实现。 - 斯沃特博士拥有神经药理学博士学位，兼具医学背景与精神病学专科资质，现为麻省理工学院（MIT）高级讲师。 - 她指出，传统精神病学往往将超越常规感官的体验直接归类为临床精神疾病并施加强制医疗。 - 史蒂文强调，自己将在对话中扮演严谨的怀疑论者，代表大众提出最尖锐的质疑，而斯沃特博士对此表示完全欢迎。 --- ### [02:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=129s) 认知重塑：人类的34种感官与现实过滤器 作为该节目历史上观看量最高的嘉宾（上一期对谈获得了超过2000万次的播放与下载），斯沃特博士此次回归带来了一个更加颠覆性的科学命题：大脑并非感知完整世界的全部工具，而是一个降维过滤器。为了让人类能够在这个物质层面上生存与运作，大脑主动过滤掉了心智（mind）绝大部分不可思议的能力。人类实际具备的潜能，远远超出了当今科学与大众所认定的常理。 为了展示人类认知的局限，斯沃特博士向史蒂文抛出了一个看似极度基础的问题：“你认为我们有多少种感官？”史蒂文依照常理列出了视、听、嗅、味、触这五大传统感官，并试探性地提到了所谓“见鬼”的第六感。然而，斯沃特博士揭示了一个反常识的科学文献调研结果：现代科学研究所界定的人类感官并非5个，而多达34个。通过可观测宇宙的比喻与这套极其丰富的感官系统，她试图向极度依赖理性、数据与硬科学的史蒂文证明，未被肉眼所见的世界并不等于不存在。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 大脑作为现实过滤器的理论模型 accDescr: 展示广阔的现实输入如何被大脑降维压缩至物质维度的生存体验 A["客观现实 / 拓展维度<br>(包含34种感官信号)"] --> B["大脑过滤器<br>(滤除冗余/高维信息)"] B --> C["物质生存体验<br>(日常五感与受限心智)"] ``` - 大众普遍认为人类仅有5种感官，部分人会提及模糊的“第六感”。 - 斯沃特博士对多项前沿感官研究进行文献综述后指出，人类目前已知且有科学记录的感官数量实为34种。 - 核心假设：人脑的核心功能之一是限制与压缩心智的输入带宽，以确保个体在物质世界的日常生存中不至于被信息洪流淹没。 --- ### [05:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=329s) 隐藏四年的秘密：丧夫之痛与床头的实体显影 在坦诚对话的氛围下，斯沃特博士首次公开了她保守了四年的秘密。在上一次面对数千万观众的采访中，她将这部分极度痛苦且私密的经历深藏心底。近四年来，由于经历了一系列超常感知，她作为一名精神科医生，甚至曾多次严肃地自我评估：自己是否陷入了临床抑郁症、精神病状态（psychosis）或是躁狂发作。然而，她逐渐意识到，那其实是一场剧烈的意识觉醒与拓展过程。 她回顾了丈夫罗宾（Robin）的离世细节。两人于2016年相遇，并在2021年迎来了残酷的转折。罗宾确诊白血病后原本被医生判定仅剩2周生命，最终顽强支撑了3周半，但在他们结婚四周年前夕溘然长逝。在四周年的纪念日当天，斯沃特博士独自坐在家中拆读一封封吊唁信。若非身旁挚友如坚固堡垒般日夜守护，她坦言自己绝无法熬过那段粉身碎骨般的绝望时光。 在丈夫离世后，一系列无法用巧合解释的现象接踵而至： - **频现的知更鸟（Robins）**：斯沃特博士不论在汉普郡（Hampshire）的乡间住所还是在伦敦的寓所，只要走向窗台，眼前总会出现知更鸟。虽然她深知“人往往会看到自己想看的事物”，但这在她以往及往后的生命中都从未以如此极端的频率发生过。 - **凌晨4点的惊醒与实体拍击**：在罗宾离世约6周后的一个凌晨4点，她隐约听到远处有声响，因家中曾遭遇盗窃，她特意起床确认车库警报器无误后才重新入睡。然而不久后，她的肩膀突然遭受了一记力量巨大的重击——斯沃特博士向史蒂文强调，那绝对不是轻拍，力道之大甚至让她无法在录制现场用同等力度向史蒂文演示。 - **半透明的显化与消散**：被剧烈撞击惊醒并睁开双眼的瞬间，她看见罗宾半透明、模糊的身影正立在床边，那形态“宛如正用尽全力穿越浓稠的糖浆显现在现实中”。她单肘支床、屏息凝神，目睹罗宾的面部轮廓与发际线变得愈发清晰，随后从头顶开始向下消散，最后视野中只剩下他的小腿与双脚。 这声惊呼成了她探究死后沟通机制的起点。她承认，自己曾抱着“绝望之人做绝望之事”的心态接触通灵者，但对方平庸且漏洞百出的表现彻底断绝了她的外求之路。身为顶尖的神经科学家，她下定决心将大脑作为实验工具，用科学方法拆解这一过程，并以此揭示出人类远未被挖掘的深层潜能。 ### [10:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=602s) 扮演怀疑者与探索死后交流的开端 面对塔拉·斯沃特博士（Dr. Tara Swart）百分之百笃定的态度，主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）坦言自己将在接下来的谈话中扮演“魔鬼代言人”（devil's advocate）。他解释说，死后沟通与多重感官的观点对大多数坐在家里的听众而言是一次颠覆认知的巨大观念冲击，因此他必须代表持怀疑态度的听众提出最尖锐的质问。斯沃特博士对此表示全力欢迎，并提到史蒂芬曾多次邀请她重返播客，而她唯有在自己彻底准备好时才接受邀请，直面所有质疑。 谈及这段探索旅程的开端，斯沃特博士回忆道，在经历失去挚爱丈夫罗宾（Robin）的惨痛打击后，通灵者（mediums）带来的失望反而促使她下定决心：亲自尝试去与他沟通。在这个过程中，她产生了一种深刻的领悟——死后的交流绝非单向的呼喊，离世的人同样需要在另一侧重新学习；这就像两个原本说着不同母语的人，必须共同摸索并学会一种彼此都能理解的崭新语言。作为一名严谨的神经科学家，她迫切渴望找到能支撑这一体验的科学依据，其核心直指一个根本命题：人类的精神、心灵或灵魂，是否能够独立于肉体而存在？斯沃特博士动情地回忆起丈夫在自己眼前停止呼吸的那一刻，当她凝视着那具遗体时，内心涌起一种无比强烈的清晰感：眼前躺在床上的躯壳已经不再是他，他生命的本质已然离去，只是不知去向何方。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 创伤后意识与双向沟通探索流程 accDescr: 展示斯沃特博士从面对丧偶创伤到探索身心分离与双向符号交流的转化过程 subgraph S1["肉体与灵魂的剥离感知"] A["亲眼目睹丈夫离世"] --> B["强烈直觉：肉体躯壳已非生命本质"] B --> C["探寻科学问题：心灵是否能脱离肉体独立存在"] end subgraph S2["沟通机制的重构"] D["摒弃外界通灵者"] --> E["尝试建立双向沟通机制"] E --> F["如同学习第三种共同语言：双方皆需学习与磨合"] end S1 --> S2 ``` --- ### [12:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=720s) 34种感官与身体创伤的生理记忆 当被问及研究所涉及的30多种感官是仅用于与逝者沟通还是同样适用于生者互动时，斯沃特博士指出，这一切的起点在于对自身的觉察。如果一个人甚至不知道人类拥有多达34种感官，就根本无从有意识地调动它们。这些感官中许多属于潜意识层面的生理感知，例如血液的酸碱度（pH值）、血氧与二氧化碳的平衡等，虽然日常无法被主观意识捕捉，但通过特定的呼吸练习仍会受到调节。 随后，斯沃特博士分享了自己在心理与生理濒临崩溃边缘时的切身经历。丈夫去世后首个忌日（10月26日）临近前两个月，她自认心理状态已逐渐平复并做好了心理准备。然而，从10月4日开始，她全身上下突然爆发出难以忍受的剧烈酸痛，整整持续了六到七个星期，同时伴随着深重的抑郁情绪。作为精神科医生的她甚至不得不站在镜子前，逐条对照重度抑郁症（clinical depression）的临床诊断标准来排查自己的精神状态。全身的疼痛让她去尝试按摩，却因剧痛难忍而在整整一年内不敢再做。直到后来她翻看手机日历，惊愕地发现10月4日正是前一年她将病危的丈夫从医院接回家中等待离世的日子。意识或许淡忘了具体的日期，但身体却牢牢记住了创伤发生的那一刻，并以纯粹的生理剧痛形式重新爆发出来。 - **隐匿感官的作用**：除传统五感外，包括内感受器对血液酸碱度、气体平衡及内部微环境的感知均在无意识中持续运转。 - **躯体化记忆反应**：在丈夫接回家临终的一周年纪念日当天，身体毫无预兆地爆发长达近两个月的全身性剧痛与抑郁症状，展现出惊人的潜意识生理记忆。 --- ### [14:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=858s) 躯体治疗与失语脑区的创伤机制 通过这次躯体剧痛的爆发，斯沃特博士意识到，传统言语心理治疗（talking therapy）存在不可逾越的盲区，必须借助躯体工作（somatic work）才能触及并释放残留的创伤。她解释了背后的神经科学机制：在大脑深处存在着负责言语表达的脑区（如布罗卡区等语言中枢），在遭受毁灭性心理创伤时，这一区域会被系统性地抑制关停。日常生活中的口头表达如“我惊得说不出话”（speechless）、“目瞪口呆”（dumbfounded）或“无以言表”，正是大脑语言功能因创伤中断的具象体现。那些被封锁、无法转化为语言符号的创伤碎片，会以神经和肌筋膜记忆的形式深锁于躯体之中，唯有依靠按摩、颅骶疗法（craniosacral therapy）、太极、舞蹈或艺术等身体物理介入手段才能化解。 除了痛觉，她的温度感知也出现了匪夷所思的共振。在丈夫遗体被运走、等待火化的近两周时间里，斯沃特博士每天清晨醒来都会感到透骨的寒冷，浑身不受控制地剧烈颤抖。即便当时只是初秋的10月，她却把家里的暖气开到最大，以至于其他进屋的人感觉宛如走进了一间让人窒息的桑拿房。而罗宾生前最厌恶寒冷，在那十几天里，他的躯体正静静存放在殡仪馆冰冷的冷藏抽屉中。斯沃特博士事后反思，她的体温感觉神经在无意识中与逝者所处的环境产生了某种同频共振。 --- ### [16:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=978s) 从精神病性症状到“符号肌肉”的训练 随着时间的推移，这种感知从被动的身体共振演变成了主动的信号互动。斯沃特博士提到，在经历两到三年的磨合后，她已经能够主动在心中请求特定的迹象并获得回应，最初可能需要漫长的等待，到后来甚至能在当天显现。但这一过程伴随着理智的极限拉扯：她曾频繁体验到精神医学中被称为“被插入思维”（thought insertion）的现象——即清晰地感知到脑海中涌现出的念头绝对不属于自己。在精神病学诊断中，这属于精神分裂症的核心一级症状（first-rank symptom）。身为资深精神科专家的她陷入了一种荒诞而痛苦的分裂状态：一方面清醒地自我警告“塔拉，你正在出现典型的精神病性症状”，另一方面又清晰感知到这种外来思维的真实存在。这让她深刻认识到，哀恸（grief）在神经化学与电信号传递层面上与精神病状态（psychosis）高度重叠，彻底重塑了神经递质的水准；这也让她对缺乏专业医学知识却承受着类似幻觉与意念冲击的丧亲者产生了巨大的同情。 史蒂芬随即提问，捕捉并解读这些超常信号的能力是否就像去健身房锻炼肌肉一样需要后天培养。斯沃特博士给出了极其坚定的肯定回答，强调不仅是自己，逝去的一方同样需要长年累月的练习来建立这套机制。当史蒂芬追问进入这座“感官健身房”的第一步是什么时，斯沃特博士直言：“一切总是始于相信。”她指出，很多人要么完全不信，要么内心深处悄悄相信却因害怕遭受世俗嘲笑而不敢言说。面对这一观点，史蒂芬表达了理性主义者的顾虑：如果没有严谨的科学证据（rigor）作为锚点，人就会变得极易受骗，甚至会去相信“花园底部的飞天意面神教”（spaghetti monster at the bottom of the garden）或世间所有宗教，最终像风中的塑料袋一样漫无目的地飘荡。斯沃特博士完全赞同科学严谨性的重要性，并坦承自己的整个学术生涯都建立在此之上；然而，正是当她被丧偶的巨大绝望逼入绝境时，她不得不迫使自己换一种思维去探索那个根本问题——“如果这一切是真的呢？”（what if?），从而走向了卡尔·荣格（Carl Jung）关于集体无意识的理论深处。 ### [19:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1164s) 自然循环与开放思维：被遗忘的生命连接 Tara Swart 博士指出，所有人类都共享着三种不可避免的核心经历——出生、生存与死亡。这种共同体验已经深深烙印在我们的遗传基因和大脑构造中。从远古智慧的视角来看，宇宙大爆炸产生了碳、氢、氧、氮等元素，我们每个人本质上都是由这些相同的星尘物质构成的。古代祖先顺应自然的节律而活，而现代人之所以感到如此疏离、痛苦与不幸，很大程度上是因为我们切断了与大自然的深刻连结。 她以三文鱼（鲑鱼）的生命历程作为例证：三文鱼在历经艰辛完成生命周期后死去，其骨骼最终分解，成为森林地表不可或缺的磷元素养分。生命从未真正消失，只是改变了形式。祖先们年复一年见证着自然的循环往复，深知万物都在不断更新更替，没有什么是彻底消亡的。面对科学的质疑与探索，Swart 强调，我们必须保持敬畏与开放的态度：“我们现在所确认的许多真理，在过去都曾被视作不可能；同理，未来也会有今天未知的事物变得清晰明了。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 自然物质与能量的循环更新体系 accDescr: 展示从宇宙大爆炸生成元素，到自然生物死亡转化及生态系统更新的循环网络。 subgraph Origin["宇宙本源与元素"] A["大爆炸产生元素<br/>(C, H, O, N)"] --> B["构成所有生命形态"] end subgraph Cycles["生态循环案例"] B --> C["三文鱼完成生命周期"] C --> D["鱼骨分解提供森林磷元素"] D --> E["滋养树木与森林生态"] end subgraph Renewal["更新与连续性"] E --> F["万物循环更新<br/>物质从未真正消亡"] end ``` ### [20:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1253s) 自然界的隐秘智慧：黏菌与菌根网络的启示 为了佐证自然界蕴藏着人类尚未完全理解的惊人协作能力，Tara 提出了黏菌（Slime Mold）与森林菌根网络（Mycorrhizal Network）的生物学奇观： * **黏菌的利他与演化博弈**：黏菌原本是类似阿米巴原虫的单细胞生物，在食物充足时各自独立生活。然而一旦面临饥荒，它们会迅速汇聚成一个黏液状的有机整体（蛞蝓状假原质团），集体移动寻找新的食物源；当遭遇灭绝危机时，它们甚至能联合分化成类似蘑菇的子实体，由菌柄和顶部产生孢子的结构组成。菌柄处的单细胞实际上牺牲了自身繁殖的机会以换取群体的延续，但研究也发现，有些自私的单细胞会“作弊”爬上菌柄，挤占顶部孢子的位置以确保自身基因传播。 * **地下互联的菌根网络**：真菌菌丝体与树木根系构建的共生网络，即使面对被砍伐残存的树桩，菌根网络也能跨越数个世纪持续为其输送水分和糖分。更为震撼的是，这种滋养与关照甚至跨越了不同树种，树木和菌丝并非仅为了同种族繁衍，而是为了整个森林生态系统的共生互利。 Tara 总结道，这些在十年前还被当作无稽之谈的自然现象如今已是确凿的科学事实，就像如今在洛杉矶街头随处可见的无人驾驶汽车一样，早年间都属于科幻小说的想象。作为一名认知科学家，她探讨意识的本质并非要求人们盲目迷信，而是呼吁人类以开放心态直面未知。她反问主持人：“为什么探讨死后联系与精神世界会成为一种禁忌？为什么我们不能让自己获得启迪、感到更充实、更有连接感？迄今为止我们那套僵化狭隘的认知模式，显然并没有让我们过得更好。” ### [23:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1430s) 跨越维度的讯号：亡夫周年纪念日的“不死鸟” 主持人 Steven 询问 Tara 是在何时下定决心撰写《标志》（*The Signs*）一书的。Tara 坦言自己原本毫无写书的计划，但当她确信自己总结出的经验切实能够帮助他人走出伤痛时，她决定将其公之于众。当时，她已经几乎每天都在与亡夫 Robin 保持某种形式的沟通。 当被追问日常沟通的具体形态时，Tara 描述主要有两种途径：有时是自己在脑海中提问，随后脑海中浮现出清晰的答案，但她非常笃定那绝非自己的思维造作；有时则是脑海中直接接收到来自 Robin 的讯息；但更多时候，是以现实世界中显现的“标志”（Signs）呈现。在 Robin 去世两周年之际，Tara 经历了一次极其震撼的同步性事件： * **身心俱疲下的约定**：两周年忌日前夕，她在录音棚连续录制了一周节目，随后又驱车穿行于纳瓦霍国（Navajo Nation）公路。彼时她感到身心彻底枯竭，面临着如何在废墟中重生的严峻抉择。脑海中浮现出“火凤凰从灰烬中涅槃”（Phoenix rising from the flames）的意象。于是她在心底对 Robin 说：“亲爱的，请给我一个不死鸟（Phoenix）的标志。”为了排除日常偶遇的巧合，她特意挑选了极其罕见、绝不寻常的意象。 * **俄克拉荷马城的偶遇**：在俄克拉荷马城录制期间，她每天往返于酒店与录播间，途经中国城时，赫然路过一家名为“Phoenix Garden”（凤凰花园）的大型中餐馆，招牌上醒目地雕刻着金光闪闪的大字。 * **不可思议的转机行程**：此前从波士顿飞往西部的中转航班延误，导致她被困芝加哥一晚并耽误了录制。随行团队为了确保她能按时赶上周一在洛杉矶开始的每日播客录制，信誓旦旦地保证为她订购从弗拉格斯塔夫（Flagstaff）直飞洛杉矶的航班，绝不再安排转机。然而由于行程漂移，机票直到忌日前夕才最终确认。就在 Robin 去世两周年纪念日当天，所有直飞航线全部爆满，她被迫搭乘一班中转航班——转机地点正是亚利桑那州的**菲尼克斯（Phoenix）**。 ### [27:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1621s) 巧合还是意识感应？设立严苛的验证规则 面对这些奇异的巧合，Steven 提出了经典的科学质疑：在心理学和认知科学中，这是否仅仅是“确认偏误”（Confirmation Bias）或“巴德尔-迈因霍夫现象”（频率错觉）？就像一个人买了一辆特定款式的新车后，走在大街上就会觉得到处都是同一款车，因为大脑潜意识对具有情绪共鸣的事物赋予了更高的注意力权重。 Tara 坦率回应，她不仅不否认这种心理学机制，反而主张应当将其化为己用。为了厘清真正的讯号与单纯的主观偏误，她给自己制定了一套极其严格的筛选标准： * **限定频率与时间窗口**：例如，如果她请求看到纽扣作为标志，她会预设苛刻条件：“我必须在明晚11点之前，看到三枚真实的纽扣、纽扣标志或纽扣这个词汇。”这种极窄的时间窗口和次数要求极大降低了随机概率。 * **打破日常路径的意外邂逅**：她与一位闺蜜也有类似的感应约定（以“成对的狮子”作为暗号）。她们共同遵守一条铁律：在每天惯常行走的路线或已知存在狮子雕像的地方偶遇不算数，只有在临时起意、特意绕行或走上从未走过的陌生路线时意外撞见，才能被视作有效的“标志”。 Tara 提到，她与 Robin 之间一直有着专属的符号——“8字形”或“无限大符号”（$\infty$），这个标志从他们最初相遇时就如影随形。不久前的一天，Tara 恰好在三个分散的会议之间有一段空档，她决定步行一小时前往最后一个会面地点。正是这次随性选择的步行路线，让她猝不及防地路过了伦敦大学学院医院（UCH）——那正是 Robin 生前接受痛苦治疗、最终离世的创伤之地，一段尘封而沉重的创伤记忆由此被再次唤醒。 ### [29:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1754s) 尤斯顿车站的“8”字橡皮筋与网状激活系统 塔拉·斯沃特（Dr. Tara Swart）回忆起那天傍晚步行去参加新书发布会的经历。途中，她不得不途经那家承载着痛苦回忆的医院，内心的悲痛瞬间翻涌，她在心中质问：“为什么偏偏让我经历这一切？为什么非要让我走过这栋大楼？我这辈子都不想再看到它了。”悲伤之余，她再次在心中祈求对方给自己一个信号。 当她走到离医院不远的尤斯顿车站（Euston Station）时，人行道地面上赫然躺着一根弯成“8”字形（即无限符号 ∞）的橡皮筋，这在她心中有着极其特殊的含义。作为一名神经科学家，她并未简单将其归为神迹，而是从神经生物学角度剖析了“确认偏误”（Confirmation Bias）背后的脑科学机制：人类的大脑依靠“网状激活系统”（Reticular Activating System, 简称 RAS）运作，该系统负责过滤掉对当下生存无直接价值的海量信息，只将大脑认为需要注意的事物筛选进意识层面。 她在新书中重点探讨了“留意的艺术”（The art of noticing）。现代人的生活节奏快如走马灯，车速动辄“每小时 100 英里”，许多并非关乎“勉强生存”而是关乎“蓬勃发展”（Thriving）的微妙线索，都在匆忙中被大脑习惯性地过滤掉了。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 认知过滤与意识表现机制 accDescr: 展示环境感知输入通过网状激活系统与潜在抑制机制筛选后，高认知与低认知个体走向创造力或心理危机的两条路径。 subgraph InputFilter["感知与神经过滤层"] A["环境信息与外界感知"] --> B["网状激活系统 (RAS)"] B --> C["潜在抑制降低 (Low Latent Inhibition)"] end subgraph BrainState["大脑处理特征"] C --> D["超联结性 (脑叶与联合皮层同步激活)"] C --> E["新奇显著性 (Novelty Salience)"] end subgraph Outcomes["认知分化结果"] D & E --> F{"认知调节能力"} F -- "高智商 + 工作记忆 + 认知灵活性" --> G["高度创造力与意识拓展"] F -- "低智商 + 记忆缺陷 + 思维固着 (Perseveration)" --> H["心理危机与精神病理状态"] end ``` ### [30:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1825s) 创造力与精神疾病的重合：共有特质易感性模型 斯沃特博士随后引入了神经美学（Neuroaesthetics）中的“共有特质易感性模型”（Shared Trait Vulnerability Model）。创造力通常被视为一种积极的人格特质，然而统计学上创造力与精神病理学（尤其是抑郁症、精神分裂症和酗酒）之间存在着极高的相关性。历史上诸如亚历山大·麦昆（Alexander McQueen）、科特·柯本（Kurt Cobain）和文森特·梵高（Vincent van Gogh）等杰出艺术家，都饱受精神疾患的折磨。神经科学研究揭示，这种重叠源于三项共同的神经思考机制： 1. **超联结性（Hyperconnectivity）**：不仅指在现实物质世界中将常人难以察觉的事物联系起来，更体现在大脑内部的连接上。大脑各脑叶在联合皮层（Association Cortex）的作用下实现大范围跨区域同步放电，大脑全面向新思维敞开。这一过程常深度激活位于枕叶的视觉皮层，这也是致幻剂或创造性意识改变状态下人们能“看见”常态看不见之物的原因。 2. **新奇显著性（Novelty Salience）**：指敏锐捕捉环境中新奇事物的能力，能够主动注意到那些原本会被大脑自动化过滤掉的关键细节。 3. **低潜在抑制（Attenuated / Low Latent Inhibition）**：大脑原有的防御过滤网松动，允许远超日常负荷的信息涌入意识。 如果一个人拥有高智商、强大的工作记忆和认知灵活性，这三项机制会转化为突破常规的惊人创造力；相反，若存在智力限制、工作记忆受损或陷入思维固着（Perseveration，即反复陷入相同的思维死循环），则极易滑向心理崩溃与精神危机。经历丧亲之痛的斯沃特意识到，极度悲痛与精神错乱在神经状态上有着惊人的相似，她决定借助创造力主动放宽感官过滤网，拓展意识边界，重新审视世界与生死的边界。 ### [33:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2021s) 临终清醒与濒死体验：不可思议的生还案例 在拓展意识的探索中，斯沃特深入研究了暗室静修、濒死体验（NDE）以及“临终清醒”（Terminal Lucidity）现象。在生命濒临终结前的 1 至 24 小时内，一些大脑已严重器质性受损、甚至多年连自己子女名字都叫不出的重度认知障碍患者，会突然恢复完全的清醒与理智，神志清晰地呼唤亲人谈心。现代医学至今无法解释：一个受到不可逆器质性损伤的大脑，为何能在回光返照的瞬间表现得像从未生病一样？ 在庞大的濒死体验案例库中，身为医生的斯沃特被三位同行亲历或记录的真实事件深深震撼： - **玛丽·尼尔医生（Dr. Mary Neal）**：骨科外科医生，曾出现在 Netflix 纪录片《死后生机》（*Surviving Death*）中。她在一次皮划艇事故中沉入水底长达 15 至 20 分钟，依常理绝无生还可能。她详尽描述了自己脱离肉身进入另一维度、遇见发光体，并从高处俯瞰自己肿胀的身体和友人竭力抢救的经过，最终被告知生命未完而重返人间。 - **埃本·亚历山大医生（Dr. Eben Alexander）**：畅销书《天堂的证据》（*Proof of Heaven*）作者。原为坚定无神论者的神经外科医生，因重症细菌性脑膜炎陷入深度昏迷并被宣布临床死亡。苏醒后他详述了见证天堂的体验，彻底转变为深信宇宙存在仁慈力量的信仰者。 - **布鲁斯·格雷森医生（Dr. Bruce Greyson）**：弗吉尼亚大学精神病学教授，从事濒死体验研究长达 50 年，个人记录案例超过 5,000 例，全球数据库更有逾 10,000 例备案。 ### [35:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2141s) 红色 MG 跑车与思维脱离肉体的终极谜题 格雷森教授曾向斯沃特分享过一个极具说服力的 ICU 真实案例。一名屡次突发心搏骤停的重症患者，与病房里一位年仅 20 岁的专职护士结下了深厚的看护情谊。某个周末，该护士轮休，由替班护士照料。患者在周末再次发生心搏骤停并经历了一场濒死体验。 在另一个世界里，他见到了自己的专职护士。护士神色温柔地对他说：“你的生命还没有结束，你必须回去好起来。另外，请转告我的父母，关于那辆红色 MG 跑车，我真的很抱歉。”患者在重症监护室苏醒后，把这段奇异的经历告诉了床边的替班护士。听完“红色 MG 跑车”这句话，替班护士当场泪崩并尖叫着冲出了病房。医护人员随后向震惊的患者道出实情：这位年轻护士刚在 21 岁生日收到了一辆红色 MG 跑车作为礼物，就在这个轮休的周末试车时撞树不幸身亡。患者在病房中全然不知她已去世，却在濒死状态中接收到了死者精确的托付。 在探讨临终清醒时，亚历山大·巴蒂亚尼教授（Prof. Alexander Batthyany，著有《门槛》[*Threshold*]）提出过一个深刻的假设：“或许在生死交界之处，我们看清了一直存在却在健康时不愿承认的真相——心灵与身体本就可以彼此独立运作。” 例如在 2009 年记录的一起典型案例中： - 一位 82 岁患有晚期阿尔茨海默病的重度失智老人，已丧失言语功能、无反应且多年不认得家人。 - 在临终前一天，她突然在病床上端坐起来，环顾四周，准确叫出了女儿的名字，言语流畅、记忆清晰地回忆往事并感谢家人的照料，言行举止宛如从未患病。 - 当晚安详入睡后，她在睡梦中平静离世。 斯沃特指出，神经生物学或许可以用“临终神经递质激增”来敷衍这一现象，但如果底层的物理神经元和突触早已被疾病不可逆地蚕食殆尽，神经化学物质根本无从发挥功能。基于现有医学所能触及的边界，唯一的合理解释是：人类的心灵、思想、情感与灵魂，绝不仅仅是从物理物质结构中附带涌现（emergent）出来的副产品，心灵与肉体在本质上是相互独立的。 ### [39:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2375s) 逝去的意识与能量去向：前沿神经科学与未解之谜 当被问及亡夫 Robin 究竟身在何处时，Tara Swart 博士给出了一个跨越现代科学与形而上学的视角。她认为，无论人们将这种存在称作宇宙、纯粹意识、集体潜意识、神性（Godhead）还是“宇宙汤”（cosmic soup），称谓本身并不重要；核心在于生命消逝后，那股能量并未凭空湮灭，而是以某种形式继续存在于某个维度。如果从轮回的角度看，它可能会进入另一具肉身作为容器去体验全新的人生，但“它绝不会真正消失”。 面对主持人的追问“你如何确定这一点？”，Tara 坦言自己的回答或许带有主观色彩——这是她从与自己一生中最亲密的人之间的联结中亲身体验到的，因为她深知 Robin 若非万不得已绝不会离开她。但她强调，这一感悟完全可以获得前沿科学理论的支持。斯坦福大学神经科学家 David Eagleman 曾提出一种观点：我们的大脑或许就像一台收音机，本身并不产生电台节目，而只是在接收外部传来的信号——虽然这尚未被彻底证实，但科学界也绝对无法证明它是错的。同样，认知科学家 Donald Hoffman 教授也主张，时空可能根本不是宇宙运转的底层基石，意识才是宇宙的终极本源。Tara 充满热情地指出，作为一名科学家，核心使命本就应当是质疑现状并保有永恒的好奇心，“如果一个科学家认为我们目前所知的一切就是世界的全部真相，那从事科学研究就毫无意义了。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 意识与大脑的关系假说 accDescr: 对比传统唯物主义还原论与前沿意识接收假说 subgraph Classical["经典还原论假说"] C1["大脑物理结构与化学活动"] --> C2["产生主观意识"] C2 --> C3["肉体死亡后意识彻底归零"] end subgraph Emerging["前沿意识假说 (Eagleman / Hoffman)"] E1["宇宙底层意识场 / 能量"] --> E2["大脑充当'收音机'调谐器"] E2 --> E3["肉体瓦解后能量回归整体存在"] end ``` ### [41:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2476s) 训练大脑接收信号：神经美学、自然与社群 在探讨是否能像在健身房锻炼肌肉一样系统性地提升感知信号的能力时，Tara 详细拆解了她在新书《The Signs》中精心编排的三个关键维度： * **神经美学（Neuroaesthetics）与艺术**：留意日常中的美感或投身艺术实践。大量科学证据表明，接触与体验艺术能够显著增强大脑对“新奇事物的显著性感知”（novelty salience），也就是注意到前所未见的新事物的敏锐度，从而帮助大脑拓宽并打开原有的知觉过滤器。 * **重返自然（Nature）**：大自然是生命信号最丰沛的来源。无论是突然飞来的蝴蝶、知更鸟，还是自然界中独特的螺旋形态或云层构型，刻意增加对大自然的觉察，能让人们更加敏锐地捕捉到这些深层线索。 * **支持性社群（Community）**：探讨超感官经验与精神世界时，所处的社交环境至关重要。如果周围人一概予以否定并斥为荒谬，会立刻封闭个人的知觉通道；相反，在一个允许提出挑战性问题、彼此开放探讨的社群中，人们才能勇敢地反思既有认知并拓展感知边界。 ### [42:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2568s) 巧合的数学概率与向未知敞开 主持人 Steven 从自身经历切入，提出了关于“巧合”的理性思辨。在他从宗教信仰转向不可知论的过程中，许多无神论学者的论点曾深深影响了他：从纯粹的统计学和概率论来看，如果生活中完全没有巧合发生，那反倒是一场“奇迹”。在钟形正态分布曲线上，极大概率的事件频繁发生，低概率事件较少发生，而极其罕见的小概率事件（例如忽然想念某位朋友，下一秒对方的电话就打了过来）虽然不常出现，但从大数定律来看，它们必然会在某些时间点随机降临。Steven 认为，倘若每天心中默想十个人，绝大多数时候手机都不会收到消息，但只要尝试的天数足够多，根据概率法则，必然会在某一刻撞上巧合。 对此，Tara 欣然接纳了这一数学逻辑，但她提出了另一层邀请：与其纯粹用概率论将其理性化，不如在生活中以开放的心态去体验它。无论是自然而然地浮现某个人的身影并观察后续展开，还是主动向宇宙请求一个指引信号，尝试这种做法“并不会对你造成任何伤害”，反而能打破日常思维的局限。 ### [44:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2678s) 超越自我：为什么现代人需要灵性与人生意义 针对“相信某种比自我更宏大的存在能带来什么益处”这一问题，Tara 指出，仅仅为了生存和满足基础需求而活着的生活是贫瘠的。真正的生命质量来源于超越自我的深度联结——与内在自我联结、与他人联结、与更宏大的事物联结，这种联结赋予生命真正的目标感与意义感。当代实证研究同样证明，拥有超越个体内在利益的崇高人生意义（a transcendent purpose），对身心健康具有深远的保护作用。 在界定她个人的“超越性层面”时，Tara 明确表示这并非指传统的组织化宗教，也不是去崇拜一个人格化的造物主或上帝，而是一种普世的精神性（spirituality）以及对整个人类命运的关怀与慈悲。尽管全球有约 85% 的人信仰某种形式的宗教与神灵，对她个人而言，这一层面的核心在于“让边缘的声音获得意义，让更多人感受到自己被看见、被听见”。她意识到自己通过公众平台拥有巨大的发声特权，因此更希望利用这一特权为大众带来积极的疗愈与改变。 ### [46:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2761s) 直觉、身体记忆与“血清素假说” 关于直觉与身体的内在机理，Tara 将话题引向了身体对未消解创伤的生理储存。许多创伤无法通过单纯的谈话疗法（talking therapy）得到治愈，因为它们往往发生在语言系统发育成熟之前，或者性质过于激烈而超出了词汇能表述的极限，从而直接深深烙印在身体的肉体组织之中。以她自身的创伤经历为例，在 Robin 住院抢救期间，她整日蜷缩身躯、双拳紧握，神经处于高度紧绷状态，仿佛“只要自己松懈一毫秒，丈夫就会立刻死去”。这种长期防御性的压力姿势（stress postures）在往后漫长的时间里演变成慢性的脊柱与肌肉酸痛，成为了筋膜层面的躯体记忆。 Tara 深入解析了创伤具身化以及直觉在生理学上的具体通路： * **直觉的神经布线机制**：基于赫布学习定律（Hebbian learning，“同频激发的神经元会连接在一起”），重复的感知体验会从大脑皮层逐步下沉至边缘系统、脑干，并最终固化在腹部肠神经系统中，这正是为什么直觉常被称为“肠道直觉”（gut instinct）。 * **筋膜（Fascia）作为独立器官的地位**：过去医学界曾长期将贯穿全身结缔组织的筋膜视为无用的多余结构，在外科手术中随意切除；现代医学则证实筋膜是一个精密的、包裹所有器官与肌肉的系统性感知器官。 * **革命性的血清素假说（Serotonin Hypothesis）**：这一假说为著名创伤专家 Bessel van der Kolk 在《身体从未忘记》（*The Body Keeps the Score*）中描述的躯体创伤印记提供了具体生物学机制。该假说指出，微毛细血管的收缩水平直接决定了向皮肤、筋膜和肌肉输送的营养与化学介质，这一血管与组织层面的生理改变正是创伤在肉体深处被长期锁住的微观机制。 * **释放躯体创伤的解药**：既然创伤牢固地卡在筋膜与肌肉结缔组织中且无法单靠言语疏导，释放它的最佳途径便是纯粹的躯体律动与物理表达——跳舞、歌唱、击鼓、哼鸣（humming）以及吟诵，通过声音共振与肢体宣泄，让僵死在组织内的创伤能量重新流动起来。 ### [49:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2956s) 古老智慧与身体疗愈：悲伤不仅在脑海中，更深锁于肌肉与组织 神经科学家塔拉·斯沃特博士（Dr. Tara Swart）探讨了古代文化如何通过身体宣泄来处理悲伤与心理创伤。例如在古希腊的葬礼习俗中，人们会大声号哭并用力捶打自己的胸膛。这绝非单纯的情感宣泄，而是一种古老的直觉智慧：通过吼叫与拍打肌肉，促使深埋在身体中的创伤物理性地排出体外。现代神经科学和心理学也证实了按摩、瑜伽、颅骶疗法（Craniosacral therapy）等身体取向疗法在释放组织创伤方面的关键作用。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 悲伤疗愈的多层递进阶梯 accDescr: 展现从身体基础到符号感知的三个悲伤疗愈层级 subgraph L1["第一层级：基础身心调节"] A["允许情绪流淌<br/>拒绝压抑与否认"] --> B["谈话疗法与倾诉<br/>触碰心理天花板"] B --> C["躯体疗法<br/>瑜伽 / 按摩 / 颅骶疗法"] end subgraph L2["第二层级：外部滋养与表达"] D["沉浸自然环境<br/>系统性神经重置"] E["创造力释放<br/>绘画 / 雕刻 / 欣赏艺术"] end subgraph L3["第三层级：直觉与灵性感知"] F["保持开放接纳<br/>白羽毛 / 鸟儿造访 / 象征物"] G["接收并赋予意义<br/>获取安慰、指引与平静"] end L1 --> L2 L2 --> L3 ``` 斯沃特博士为正在经历挚爱离世（如失去配偶、孩子或祖父母）的听众提出了一个三层疗愈阶梯： - **第一层（基础层）：允许情绪流淌与躯体释放**。首要法则是绝不压抑或否认内在情绪，必须全然感受伴随丧亲而来的痛苦。虽然专业的谈话疗法或与挚友倾诉至关重要，但纯粹的言语沟通存在上限，必须配合身体取向的物理治疗来释放身体积存的应激压力。 - **第二层（进阶层）：大自然浸润与创造力宣泄**。置身自然具有深度的神经疗愈功能；同时，无论水平高低，拿起画笔描摹自己的心境或逝去亲人的样貌，艺术创作与艺术审美的过程本身就能给创伤提供出口。 - **第三层（高阶感知）：对宇宙与逝者的“征兆”（Signs）保持开放**。当内心准备就绪时，门前飘落的一片白色羽毛、窗边停歇的一只鸟儿或某个具有特殊意义的物件，都可能带来巨大的安慰、指引与抚慰。处于自然之中并唤醒直觉，能极大提升人们识别并解读这些生命象征的能力。 --- ### [52:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3121s) 肠-脑轴的三方通信：身体是高级直觉的物质基石 身体并非仅仅承载大脑的工具，而是所有高级认知能力、直觉甚至灵性体验的物质地基。斯沃特博士强调，自她的著作《来源》（*The Source*）出版以来，关于“肠-脑轴”（Gut-Brain Axis）的突破性研究层出不穷。现代医学已经发现，肠道与大脑之间的对话不仅是双向的，更是一个由大脑、肠道神经元网络以及庞大的肠道微生物组（Gut Microbiome）共同构建的“三方交互系统”。数以万亿计的细菌、真菌与微生物决定着全身免疫、皮肤、口腔菌群以及神经中枢的运转状态。 在这套复杂系统中，肠道是大脑最直接、最敏锐的外围感应与调节器。双方主要通过以下通道进行紧密通讯： | 机制类型 | 具体路径与生物学效应 | |:--- |:--- | | **神经通路** | **迷走神经（Vagus Nerve）**：源自颅骨内的大脑延髓，拉丁语意为“漫游者”，是人体最长的一对脑神经（分左右两支），穿过颈部、横膈膜直达肠道；辅以支配消化器官的**肠传入神经（Afferent intestinal nerves）**。 | | **内分泌系统** | 肠道细胞分泌的各种激素直接进入循环系统调控大脑反应。 | | **免疫与神经递质** | 免疫细胞释放的**细胞因子（Cytokines）**等非激素化学信使；免疫系统自身合成分泌的多种神经递质；大脑驻留免疫细胞（如小胶质细胞）的同步响应。 | --- ### [55:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3307s) 肠道微生态失调、神经炎症与“身体深处的隐藏智慧” 为了提升直觉敏锐度，许多人盲目服用益生元与益生菌，但其背后的根本逻辑是“降低全身体系炎症”。人类大脑虽然只占体重的很小一部分，却消耗了机体超过 20% 的能量代谢。极高的能量周转率使神经元极易遭受自由基引起的氧化应激（Oxidative Stress）攻击。尤其是在负责记忆形成的大脑海马体（Hippocampus）中，细胞周转更新频繁，若长期处于氧化应激状态，极易加速认知衰退甚至老年痴呆。 现代西方饮食（高糖、精制加工碳水等）会诱发严重的肠道菌群失调（Dysbiosis）。不健康的肠道黏膜屏障受损后，会触发全身级联性炎症反应，部分炎症小分子甚至能穿透血脑屏障（Blood-Brain Barrier），在大脑中点燃慢性炎症。只有通过抗炎饮食、规律运动、优质营养补给、冥想以及艺术音乐干预，才能使生理系统恢复内稳态（Homeostasis）。 一旦身体处于水合充足、氧供丰富、营养充沛的内稳态平衡，大脑才会将富余的认知资源分配给高级功能。过去斯沃特博士将高级功能定义为复杂问题求解、认知灵活性与克服思维偏误；而现在她提出，人体内还潜藏着未被发掘的“更高阶直觉”——正如创伤会储存在肉体结缔组织中一样，人类千百年来累积的隐秘智慧也同样固化在身体之中。通过哼鸣、击鼓、讲故事、舞蹈、瑜伽与自由身体律动，人们能突破纯粹脑力逻辑的藩篱，激活源自肉身深处的超感直觉。 --- ### [58:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3489s) 赞助商插播与黑暗静修（Dark Retreats）初探 播客主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）分享了自己在低碳水、超低糖生活方式下的生酮体验，并讲述了赞助品牌 KetoneIQ 外源性酮体补充饮品如何显著提升其专注力、耐力与工作状态，促使其最终注资成为该公司合伙人。 随后，对话重回前沿意识探索领域，主持人对斯沃特博士提到的“黑暗静修”（Dark Retreats）一词表达了浓厚好奇。斯沃特博士解释道，黑暗静修起源于古老西藏的宗教哲学传统，但在古希腊与古罗马文明中也能找到类似雏形——古代社会甚至会将特定修行者埋入完全封闭的地下墓室数日，历经彻底剥夺光线的极端体验后，他们出关成为部落与城邦中受人敬仰的通灵先知与神秘学者。斯沃特博士指出，鉴于现代仍有许多人在实践黑暗静修，关于感官剥夺与超常意识状态的科学研究正揭开其更为神秘的面纱。 ### [59:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3587s) 黑暗静修：模拟濒死体验的古老路径 史蒂文提到自己的女友曾参加过静默静修（silent retreats），塔拉·斯沃特博士顺着这个话题解释了静默冥想与更为极端的“黑暗静修”（dark retreat）之间的区别。普通的静默冥想通常持续几天到几周，期间人们保持沉默，把大部分时间花在冥想和呼吸练习上。而在黑暗静修中，人需要身处绝对伸手不见五指的双层墙房间或洞穴中，彻底隔绝一切光源。斯沃特博士解释道，黑暗静修的传统周期通常以“七”为单位（7天到49天不等），藏传佛教的僧侣会闭关49天，而对于认真的灵修探索者而言，通常会选择体验7天。由于并非每个人都能经历真正的濒死体验（NDE），黑暗静修便成为了普通人接触并获取濒死体验同等益处的最直接模拟途径。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 黑暗静修神经生理变化与意识演进阶段 accDescr: 展示从褪黑素激增、出现光脉冲与幻觉，到意识扩展与心灵蜕变的完整过程。 subgraph Phase1 ["初始阶段（第1-2天）"] A["处于完全黑暗环境"] --> B["松果体大量分泌褪黑素"] B --> C["持续深睡与嗜睡状态"] end subgraph Phase2 ["视觉皮层激活（第3-5天）"] C --> D["出现微光脉冲与火花"] D --> E["墙壁散发微光 / 出现动物幻影"] E --> F["目睹神性光影与超自然存有"] end subgraph Phase3 ["蜕变与整合（静修结束）"] F --> G["消除死亡恐惧 & 重燃生活热爱"] G --> H["同理心激增 & 勇于承担健康风险"] end ``` 这种极端剥夺光线的环境会引发一系列深层的神经生化反应。刚进入黑暗的前一两天，松果体会分泌巨量褪黑素，人无论入睡还是醒来都面对黑暗，导致极度嗜睡并经历大量睡眠。随后，大脑的视觉皮层开始自我激活：最初人们会看到微弱的光线脉冲、类似流星或跳跃的火花；几天后，四周原本漆黑的墙壁仿佛会隐隐发光。到了第3至5天，大脑进入深层幻觉状态，体验者会清晰地看到现实中或奇幻的动物，乃至像濒死体验者一样见到神性存有或发光的高维生灵。出关之后，人们往往会获得与濒死体验者高度一致的心理转变：重获对生活的热爱、大幅减少对死亡的恐惧、对他人充满更多慈悲心，同时因为不再惧怕失败而更敢于承担健康的风险。 - **静修时长结构**：传统以7的倍数计算，僧侣闭关可达49天，严肃灵修者多为7天，普通人亦有周末或数小时的浅层体验。 - **生理触发机制**：松果体过量分泌褪黑素（Melatonin）诱发深度嗜睡，随后视觉皮层自发产生光幻视与复杂幻觉。 - **其他改变意识状态的途径**：包括全脑呼吸法（Holotropic breathwork / 连贯意向呼吸）以及摄入致幻植物等。 --- ### [01:02:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3758s) 大脑化学机制与意识维度的科学辩题 面对这些超感官体验，史蒂文提出了极其尖锐的科学怀疑论：许多人在音乐节或派对上使用过兴奋剂、致幻剂或特定化合物，那一刻所见到的世界也完全不同，但主流神经科学会明确指出，这只是大脑神经递质在化学层面扰乱了感知，并非意味着推开了通往另一个真实“高维空间”的大门。斯沃特博士作为神经药理学专家对此表示赞同，指出致幻剂在大脑中主要作用于五羟色胺2A受体（5-HT2A receptors），引发全脑范围内、特别是视觉皮层的超连接性（hyperconnectivity），从而使人“看到”平时大脑过滤掉的景象。但她强调，科学解释并不妨碍这些体验成为探索意识潜力的窗口——无论是药物还是呼吸法，它们都在提示人类感知所能达到的广度。 研究显示，特定的连贯意识呼吸法能够产生与中等剂量裸盖菇素（Psilocybin，大笑蘑菇成分）几乎相同的神经生理效应。斯沃特博士补充道，这类非药物研究正是在某些致幻成分被法律禁止后，研究人员为了寻找替代疗法而展开的。除了人为练习，日常生活中深度的“敬畏感”（Awe）同样能瞬间打破日常意识状态：斯沃特博士分享道，当自己在剧院侧台近距离观看首席芭蕾舞演员朋友的表演时，那种身临其境、彻底融为一体的震撼感，直接带给她超越世俗的灵性体验。这种体验最深远的意义在于，它能从根本上让人认识到“生命远不止日常肉眼所见那么狭隘”。 - **神经受体靶点**：致幻体验主要与脑内五羟色胺2A受体（5-HT2A）的激活及视觉皮层的超连接性密切相关。 - **呼吸法替代效应**：科学文献已证实，连贯意识呼吸训练可激发出与中等剂量裸盖菇素等效的生理与意识体验。 - **敬畏感触发源**：置身壮丽大自然或沉浸于顶级艺术表演（如侧台观赏芭蕾舞）同样能够自发诱发深层改变的意识状态。 --- ### [01:05:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=3915s) 灵性超越感对生命的重构与其潜在危险 斯沃特博士指出，人类甚至不需要亲自遭遇濒死体验就能从中获益。大量实证研究表明，不同专业的大学生仅仅是在课堂上系统学习、了解濒死体验案例与数据，就会在长达一年的时间里展现出与濒死生还者相似的心理改善：他们对他人更加包容善良、感恩心增强、物质主义欲望下降，并且深刻认识到在宏大的宇宙图景面前，日常个人烦恼是何等微不足道。在现代西方物欲横流的社会中，这种超越感是解开物质枷锁的一剂良药。反观远古旧石器时代，先祖们即使资源极度匮乏，也会打扮自身、起舞、讲故事、绘制洞穴岩画，将云层的变幻既看作风雨的预兆，也看作祖灵的低语；这种对超然力量的信仰绝非无意义的奢侈品，而是构筑人类心理健康的核心基石。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 超越性信仰对行为的潜在双向分化 accDescr: 展现超越性信仰既能带来利他整合，也可能在教条极端化下引发毁灭性破坏。 T["超然信仰 / 相信彼岸存在"] subgraph Positive ["积极整合路径"] P1["消解物质执念"] P2["共情与利他行为"] P3["坦然面对失败与死亡"] end subgraph Negative ["极端教条路径"] N1["极端原教旨教条"] N2["为了来世利益牺牲现世生命"] N3["恐怖暴力与狂热破坏行为"] end T --> Positive T --> Negative ``` 史蒂文随后对这种“只要有用就值得相信”的实用主义信仰提出了有力反驳：回顾人类历史，信仰“某种超然事物”（Transcendence）往往也会带来灾难性的恶果。许多人正是因为坚信死后有更美好的极乐彼岸、为了所谓“更宏大的神圣目标”，选择在身上绑满炸弹或劫持飞机撞击大楼（正如他前一晚观看的本·拉登纪录片所记录的场景）。盲目坚信超越世俗的存在，并不必然保证现实行为的善意与建设性。斯沃特博士坦然接受这一尖锐批评，明确区分了濒死体验带来的自然慈悲与僵化宗教教条主义（dogmatism）的破坏性，并强调自己绝非在宣扬某种万能神药：“我们必须对我所说的一切保持质疑；我也会持续审视自己的生活方式，不断学习与成长。”信仰超然事物是否必然让生活变得更好，依然是一个需要批判性审视的开放性议题。 - **间接获益效应**：实证研究证实，普通学生仅通过深入学习濒死体验相关文献与案例，其慈悲心与低物欲状态即可持续超过一年。 - **远古演化印记**：旧石器时代的洞穴壁画、装饰与神话叙事，证明精神超然性是人类与生俱来的内在心理需求，而非生存富余后的产物。 - **历史盲区与警惕**：教条化的死后世界信仰极易被极端意识形态利用，从而诱发自杀式袭击等毁灭性行为，警示人们必须警惕非理性的狂热。 ### [01:09:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4157s) 意义危机与现代社会的“自我”孤岛 史蒂文（Steven Bartlett）探讨了现代社会中关于“人生目标与意义”的深刻困境。他指出，在过去五六十甚至七十年的社会演进中，个人主义和独立精神逐渐演化成一种备受推崇的时尚，人们尤其是女性获得了前所未有的自主权与选择权。然而，拥有无限选择的自由也伴随着巨大的副作用：短期的享乐主义欲望与诱惑开始占据主导地位，人们在不经意间牺牲了原本能够赋予生命深层意义的部落纽带、共有责任感以及人与人之间的相互依存。 史蒂文用层级结构来剖析这种断层：人类曾经拥有一套由内向外延展的意义锚点——从“我”向上构建到家庭、城市、国家，乃至神明或更高的精神信仰。如今，这些支撑层级在很多人身上已经轰然瓦解，最终只剩下了光秃秃的“我”。这种彻底的去依附状态导致现代人沦为精神上的“无锚之舟”，普遍感到漂泊与迷茫。这也从根源上解释了为何越来越多的人陷入中年危机，不得不转而在宗教或灵性体验中苦苦寻求解药。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代意义梯级的崩塌 accDescr: 展示传统多层连接退化为单一自我孤岛的过程，导致现代人的意义危机。 subgraph Traditional["传统多维意义结构 (有依托)"] G["精神信仰 / 神明"] --> N["国家 / 民族"] N --> C["城市 / 社区"] C --> F["家族 / 部落"] F --> S1["自我 (Me)"] end subgraph Modern["现代原子化孤岛 (失去锚点)"] S2["单一自我 (Me)"] Loss["断绝传统依托与共有责任<br/>陷入享乐与意义危机"] S2 --> Loss end ``` --- ### [01:10:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4246s) 精神革命与真正连接的本质 塔拉·斯瓦特博士（Dr. Tara Swart）对史蒂文的观点深表认同，并提到自己在 2020 年 3 月的播客中就曾提前做出过预警。当时她断言，世界即将面临一场空前严重的心理健康危机，但人类同时拥有一个主动的选择权——“我们可以选择让它成为一场精神革命”。然而随着疫情后的社会重启，人们发现现实远比想象残酷：生活成本飙升、贫富差距拉大、新的战争爆发，以及以伦敦为代表的城市犯罪率显著上升。这些动荡严重摧毁了人们在社会中的基本安全感。 作为一名科学家，塔拉本身高度认可科技的价值，但她敏锐地指出了当下的时代讽刺：技术让我们在数字层面上空前互联，而在灵魂层面上，人与人却陷入了前所未有的疏离与孤立。她认为破局之道在于“回归古老智慧”与“真正的连接”——这种连接完全可以与现代科技并存。在她看来，人性的核心在于真正与内在自我联结，融入群体，并去关怀超越个人和微小社交圈之外的事物： - **真正连接（True Connection）**：具备深层、非交易性（Non-transactional）与利他主义的特质，核心在于为他人或更大的整体做出奉献。 - **虚假连接（False Connection）**：基于利益互换、表面化、功利目的或纯粹技术性的浅层互动。 --- ### [01:12:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4368s) 医院创伤与重症监护室的生死抉择 谈话转向了塔拉个人经历中的巨大创痛。史蒂文问及她前不久无意间路过亡夫罗宾（Robin）曾住过的医院时的情景。塔拉坦言，那栋大楼对她而言是一个强烈的创伤触发源。当时她按照 Google Maps 导航行走，事前并未意识到路线会途经该医院，如果提前察觉她一定会绕道避开。走过大楼时，她感到极度的不公和痛苦，正是在那种被创伤笼罩的瞬间，她再次向逝去的罗宾呼喊：“你必须给我发一个信号。” 塔拉深情回忆了罗宾生前两次住进重症监护室（ICU）的惨烈经历。在罗宾第一次长达一个月的住院期间，他已经卧床数周。某天傍晚，塔拉结束探视回到家中，刚准备在沙发上放松一下，紧急电话突然响了起来。医护人员在电话里急促通报：罗宾的心率飙升到了 200，ICU 团队已介入抢救并拉响了急救警报（crash call）。塔拉立刻追问：“我需要马上回医院吗？”对方用一种刻不容缓的语气回答：“是，立刻过来。” 塔拉顾不上一切，叫了一辆 Uber 飞奔 30 分钟赶往医院，同时给闺蜜发信息同步情况。赶到 15 楼病房外时，护士长正走过来开锁，脸色极其沉重。穿过走廊时，外面堆满了推出来的抢救仪器，无数条管线从病房内延伸出来。然而，当塔拉冲进病房时，眼前的景象令她心碎：罗宾端坐在病床上，一见到她便绽放出巨大的笑容，对她说的第一句话是： > "When I thought this was the end, I just kept thinking, please let me see her face one more time." > （“当我以为这就是终点时，我脑子里只有一个念头：请让我再看一眼她的脸。”） --- ### [01:15:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4509s) 走出绝境的承诺与最后的回家之路 在经历那次急救后，罗宾的身体略有好转，但长期卧床导致机能极度衰竭。医护人员要求他必须离床坐起，但他抗拒外界的干预：治疗师来访时，他说“我不需要治疗，我有你”，塔拉便替他接受了咨询；反射疗法师过来时，他故意闭眼装睡。塔拉心疼而坚定地劝他：“亲爱的，你必须配合这个游戏规则，我一个人撑不起这一切，你不能一直躺着，必须坐起来。” 那天，罗宾终于被搀扶进椅子里。当塔拉向他告别时，两人面对面紧紧拥抱在一起——过去这一个月里，由于他卧床不起，塔拉每一次都只能侧身探过床栏亲吻他。在面对面相拥的瞬间，始终在丈夫面前强颜欢笑、未曾流露半点软弱的塔拉再也无法克制，泪水决堤而出。离开医院后，罗宾发来了一连串情绪激动的短信：“我再也不要和你分开了。我待在这家医院里日渐衰弱，而我本可以和你在一起。你明天过来，我们就告诉医生我要出院。” 第二天大查房时，罗宾坚定地宣布自己当天就要出院回家。主治顾问医师明白塔拉绝不会拿病人的安全冒险，便转头试探地问她：“塔拉，你怎么看？”面对深爱且始终无条件支持自己的男人，塔拉知道自己绝不能否定他的判断，她必须成为那个永远在背后支撑他的人。她平静地回应医生：“我理解您为什么不赞成，但我认为我能照料好他。” ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 罗宾的治疗与居家照护轨迹 accDescr: 罗宾从第一次出院到病情恶化及最后安宁居家的生命历程。 subgraph Phase1["第一次出院与短期缓解"] A["坚持出院<br/>依赖吸氧与定期输血"] --> B["移居 Hampshire 调养<br/>摆脱拐杖与氧气机"] end subgraph Phase2["第二轮治疗与最终归宿"] B --> C["回伦敦接受第二轮化疗<br/>极其残酷且无效"] C --> D["10月4日接回家中安宁护理<br/>突破预期存活3.5周"] end ``` 罗宾在两天内拔除静脉输液顺利出院，尽管仍需吸氧，并且需要定期回医院做骨髓检测、输血和血小板输注，但奇迹般地慢慢康复： - **汉普郡（Hampshire）的奇迹**：由于身体虚弱无法立刻承受第二轮化疗，医生允许他们前往汉普郡疗养；在那里罗宾奇迹般地脱离了拐杖，停止了吸氧。当他们重返伦敦时，主治医生惊叹罗宾的状态远超预期。 - **第二轮化疗的致命打击**：残酷的第二轮治疗彻底击垮了罗宾，疗效未达预期，他不得不再次陷入长达数周的重度住院状态。 - **最后的微弱希望**：10 月 4 日，塔拉决定将罗宾接回家中。即便在生命的末期，女顾问医师依然提醒她“一旦有转机就回伦敦”，男顾问医师甚至违规塞给塔拉两支骨髓刺激注射剂，叮嘱她在紧急许可时为罗宾注射。带着这份最后的执念，罗宾在特制的气垫病床上，打破了医生“只能活两周”的预言，在家中多陪伴了塔拉整整三个半星期。 ### [01:18:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4722s) 最后的拥抱与未竟的使命 塔拉·斯沃特博士（Dr. Tara Swart）强忍着情绪，回忆起丈夫罗宾（Robin）离世前两天那段令人心碎的告别时刻。当时罗宾的身体已经极其虚弱，甚至连把一杯水端到嘴边的力气都没有，但他却轻声对她说：“你能不能上来和我一起躺在床上？”塔拉过去总是习惯枕在他的胸膛上入睡，而在那一刻，几乎已经无法动弹的罗宾不知从哪里借来一股力量，艰难地挪动了手臂，试图重新揽住她。 狭窄的病床两边竖着护栏以防掉落，塔拉挤在狭小的空间里，紧紧依偎着他。然而仅仅过了几秒钟，极度衰竭的罗宾有些喘不过气地说，自己突然感到非常幽闭恐惧。塔拉立刻温柔地安慰他：“没事的，亲爱的。”随后退出了病床。塔拉事后意识到，那是罗宾在用尽生命最后的力气向她道别，因为短短两天之后，他就与世长辞了。 谈到这里，演播室的气氛变得凝重而悲伤。塔拉坦言，自己最大的心愿就是不希望罗宾被世界遗忘，这也是她将新书献给他的原因。然而，她也深知两人之间曾有过深刻的默契——她之所以留在这个世界上，是因为她还有必须要去完成的生命使命。继续活下去并去实现罗宾期望她完成的使命，成了她前行最重要的支柱。 --- ### [01:20:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4815s) 无条件的爱与对未来感情的释然 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及一个极为艰难的话题：在承受了如此沉痛的失去之后，她未来是否还会考虑重新坠入爱河？斯沃特博士坦言，在遇到罗宾之前，受过往感情创伤的影响，她根本不相信世界上存在“无条件的爱”。当罗宾第一次对她说“我无条件地爱你”时，她曾防备地反驳道：“别这么说，因为这种爱根本不存在。”从那以后，罗宾再也没有口头重复过这句话，但他生命中的每一天，都在用一言一行向她证明无条件的爱确实存在。 关于是否重新寻找爱情，塔拉展现出一种平和与顺其自然的态度： * **卸下戒指的节奏**：尽管丧夫后常有人劝慰她“他一定希望你快乐”，甚至有罗宾的朋友在两年后劝她不必再戴婚戒，但塔拉依然坚持戴了两年多的结婚戒指，直到自己内心的哀伤逐渐能够承受才摘下。 * **不强求的态度**：她表示自己“愿意接纳爱，但绝不会刻意去追逐爱”。一方面是因为曾经拥有过如此完满极致的真爱，就算此生不再重来一次也没有遗憾；另一方面，她坦承自己目前依然感到非常脆弱。 --- ### [01:22:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4929s) 商业赞助：Pipedrive 与 Cadence 在播客的中场间隙，主持人史蒂芬插入了两则商业赞助介绍： * **Pipedrive CRM**：史蒂芬指出很多创业者往往将销售受阻归咎于团队表现，但真正的原因常常是缺乏管道透明度。作为由销售人员专为销售团队打造的客户关系管理工具，Pipedrive 帮助全球逾 10 万家企业梳理销售流程，使用该工具的团队平均成交率提高至以往的三倍。 * **Cadence 电解质补水饮品**：史蒂芬分享了他决定重金投资 Cadence 的背景。他一直在寻找一款兼具科学配比、口感不甜腻的电解质补水产品，在好友乔治·希顿（George Heaton）引荐下结识了创始人罗斯·麦凯（Ross Mackay），并对这款覆盖运动表现、体能恢复与睡眠调节的产品产生了极大共鸣。 --- ### [01:24:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5053s) 走出丧偶之痛与个人内在的蜕变 广告结束后，史蒂芬顺着感情的话题追问：如果一个同样经历丧偶、已经过去四年的朋友来征求意见，她会给出什么建议？塔拉回答，疗愈是一个极其私人化的过程，每个人需要的周期完全不同。在罗宾去世后，身边的大多数人都急着鼓励她“是时候开始新生活了”，但一位未婚夫曾是鳏夫的女性朋友却对她说：“相信我，两年时间对于这种伤痛来说根本不够长。”这句话在当时给了塔拉极大的安慰与喘息空间。她坚信，如果某段缘分注定属于自己，它自然会在恰当的时候出现。 谈及经历这场灾难后自身发生的变化，塔拉坦言朋友们眼中的她变得比过去更加脆弱、敏锐，这也让身边的挚友对她产生了强烈的保护欲。最初，有朋友试图安慰她说“经历这一切之后，你将能够帮助更多的人”，塔拉当时本能地感到抗拒与刺痛：“我做过神经科医生、精神科医生和高管教练，我的整个人生都在助人，我根本不需要让我丈夫遭受如此残酷的折磨和死亡，来换取我助人的资格。”但时过境迁，现在的她确实发自内心地渴望用这份沉淀去帮助那些同样深陷痛苦、极度渴望“被看见”的人们。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 塔拉·斯沃特博士的生命蜕变路径 accDescr: 展示了从失去至亲的剧痛到心理蜕变，最终将痛苦转化为生命使命的演进流程。 subgraph Trauma["创伤与痛苦"] A["经历至亲离世与巨大丧痛"] --> B["内在变得极为脆弱、敏感"] end subgraph Healing["接纳与疗愈"] B --> C["拒绝按外界预期强行翻篇"] C --> D["顺其自然，允许哀伤流淌"] end subgraph Transformation["蜕变与觉醒"] D --> E["跨越原本的医学与教练认知"] E --> F["深切体会人类的真实苦难"] F --> G["赋予痛苦以使命：让受苦者被看见"] end ``` --- ### [01:26:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5190s) 主观现实、宇宙因果与注定的相遇 史蒂芬将对话引向更宏大的哲学命题：如果主观现实并不像我们肉眼所见那般绝对，那人类寄居在肉体中的灵魂是否存在某种宏大的业力（Karma）目标？人生的终极意义究竟是什么？ 面对这个无法给出标准科学答案的宏大问题，塔拉选择用他们彼此之间的连接作为生动的例证： * **无法解释的默契**：塔拉和史蒂芬原本属于完全不同的人生轨迹，甚至在第一次录制播客之前素未谋面。但两人一坐下来就展现出惊人的默契与化学反应，仿佛是相识一生的亲人，塔拉甚至直言史蒂芬给她的感觉就像自己的亲生弟弟，而那一期节目随后引爆了数百万的播放量。 * **非巧合的相遇**：在塔拉看来，这种跨越陌生关系的深度共鸣绝非偶然。史蒂芬是她所认识的播客主持人中最理性、最具批判精神与怀疑态度的提问者；按常理推断，向最怀疑的人讲述这种超常的精神体验本应是最糟糕的选择，但命运却偏偏安排她在这里率先打破沉默。 * **科学信誉带来的责任**：塔拉强调自己并不是带着所有终极答案来到这里布道的先知。正因为她拥有扎实严谨的神经科学背景与专业资历，才使她有责任站出来，为那些发生在大众身上却因害怕被评判而无人敢谈论的超常体验发声。为了保证科学的真实性，出版商甚至不允许她在新书中直接使用身边朋友的亲身故事，而是要求她广泛征集并核实更具普适性的案例。 ### [01:28:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5320s) 真实故事的共性与对未知的敬畏 Dr. Tara Swart 谈到她在新书《迹象》（*The Signs*）中收录的那些动人案例。书中每一个具名的个人故事，都来自她从未谋面、仅有一面之缘或朋友的朋友；这些故事全由当事人亲笔撰写并赠予她。令人震撼的是，这些素昧平生的人讲述的经历却惊人地一致：有人在思念逝去至亲时目睹了灯光的异常闪烁，有人收到了不可思议的明确征兆，还有人在特定时刻迎来了知更鸟的驻足。塔拉由衷感慨道：“我没有编造任何东西，这里面一定存在着某种规律。”虽然现代科学目前还无法给出确切的解释，但她希望自己能在有生之年解开这个谜团，或者“也许只有在我离开这个世界后才会真正明白”。 斯蒂芬（Steven）顺着这个话题提出了一个更为宏大的终极好奇：人类存在于世究竟有何意义？如果生命中的相遇真如塔拉所说是“命中注定”为了传递重要信息、帮助更多人，那么宇宙背后的意图究竟是什么？他甚至好奇，自己的宠物狗巴勃罗（Pablo）是否也拥有感知征兆或与未知维度沟通的能力。 --- ### [01:29:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5361s) 动物与人类超越常规的感官：超嗅觉、回声定位与被证实的视网膜新细胞 听到斯蒂芬提起他的狗，塔拉立刻笑着指出，从很多角度来看，宠物的感知能力远比人类强大得多。猫和狗能够闻出特定的人体疾病，甚至能在濒死前嗅出死亡的气息。在人类中，极少数拥有“超嗅觉”（hyperosmia）的超级嗅觉者同样能做到这一点。例如著名的苏格兰护士乔伊·米尔恩（Joy Milne），早在丈夫被确诊患有帕金森病数年之前，就通过体味变化嗅出了异样。科学家基于她的这种超常嗅觉展开深入研究，最终研发出一种通过采集皮肤化学物质即可早期预测帕金森病的皮脂擦拭测试。 人类大脑的神经可塑性同样能打破感官界限。失去视力的人能够通过重新布线大脑枕叶的视觉皮层，学会利用声音在物体表面的回弹时间来判断周围物体的距离，从而实现类似蝙蝠和海豚的“回声定位”。塔拉强调，动物拥有大量人类所缺乏的感官通道，而极少数人或特定神经重塑状态下的人也能展现出这类特质。科学的真谛就在于不断拓宽认知的边界。她以牛津大学神经科学家拉塞尔·福斯特（Russell Foster）的真实案例提醒大家保持开放心态：福斯特曾提出视网膜上不仅有负责成像的视杆细胞和视锥细胞，还存在一种感知昼夜光暗周期以调控昼夜节律的全新细胞。这一假说在当时遭到了主流学界的无情嘲笑，同行们轻蔑地质疑：“我们研究眼睛都150年了，难道还会漏掉一种细胞让你找出来？”然而实验最终证实了黑素视蛋白（melanopsin）视网膜神经节细胞的存在——即使失明的老鼠依然能依靠它感知光暗维持生物钟，唯有戴上完全不透光的隐形眼镜时其昼夜节律才会彻底紊乱。塔拉总结道，我们尚未掌握全部真相，但这正是科学探索的迷人之处。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 感官边界与认知拓展 accDescr: 展示自然界未知感官到神经重塑及科学突破的演进路径 subgraph 动物与特殊感官 ["自然与神经的超常潜能"] A["动物超强感官<br/>（嗅探疾病与死亡预兆）"] B["人类超嗅觉案例<br/>（Joy Milne 提前嗅出帕金森病）"] C["盲人视觉皮层重塑<br/>（神经重布线实现回声定位）"] end subgraph 科学边界突破 ["突破固有认知与范式"] D["科学界质疑嘲讽<br/>（认为150年眼科研究毫无遗漏）"] E["Russell Foster 发现黑素视蛋白细胞<br/>（证明感光感知调控昼夜节律）"] end A --> B B --> D C --> D D --> E ``` - **超嗅觉与医疗突破**：乔伊·米尔恩（Joy Milne）通过气味辨识帕金森病的特异能力，直接催生了利用皮肤皮脂挥发物筛查早期帕金森病的全新诊断检测。 - **神经代偿机制**：人类大脑枕叶视觉皮层在缺乏视觉信号输入时，可被大脑重新分配用于解析声音反弹的回声信号，重现类似海洋哺乳动物的回声定位能力。 - **视网膜内源光敏细胞**：自主感光视网膜神经节细胞（ipRGCs）及其所含的黑素视蛋白（Melanopsin），证明了眼睛除了视觉成像外，还承担着直接同步生理节律的独立光感功能。 --- ### [01:33:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5597s) “注意美”的神经科学：从催产素释放到对抗习惯化 斯蒂芬由衷赞叹塔拉总能将前沿神经科学转化为切实可行的生活智慧。他回忆起两人上次对话后塔拉分享的那些洞见——比如与人交谈时注视对方的左眼（以直接连通右脑的情感处理中心）、汗水能够渗透情绪化学信号、女性经期会相互同步等。斯蒂芬坦言这些知识彻底改变了他的日常观察方式，甚至打趣说这两年来每当有人生气时，自己都下意识只盯着对方的左眼看。 斯蒂芬询问塔拉近期是否有新的实践发现。塔拉分享了自己当下最深刻的心得——“留心生活中的美”（noticing beauty）。她认为这是一种比常规感恩练习更高阶的认知实践： - **催产素驱动的神经正反馈**：主动在生活中寻找美好的事物会促使大脑分泌催产素，这种内在奖赏机制会让“发现美”迅速从刻意为之的训练演变为一种不自觉的本能习惯。 - **群体感染效应**：塔拉发现自己现在会忍不住指给身边的人看：“你刚才看到那个了吗？”斯蒂芬深有同感地提到自己的伴侣也是如此，有时甚至会特意把车停在路边，只为了花45秒过马路去细细欣赏一朵花。 - **打破习惯化（Habituation）**：人类大脑对反复出现的日常刺激（例如每天路过的古树或宏伟建筑）会自然产生“习惯化”并逐渐视而不见；而塔拉所提倡的“留意的艺术”，正是通过刻意提升感知的显著性（saliency），让大脑始终对世界保持敏锐与惊奇。 --- ### [01:35:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5710s) 哀伤疗愈的下一步：对“全然绽放”的内疚与十年之约 当斯蒂芬关切地问起塔拉目前的哀伤疗愈进展时，塔拉坦率地表示情况已经好转了许多，走过了那段漫长而黑暗的岁月。但她清醒地承认自己“还没有完全走出”，因为内心深处依然潜藏着一种恐惧——“害怕让自己真正的光芒彻底绽放”。 塔拉进一步剖析了这种隐秘的心理阻碍：在远离高强度职业生涯数年之后，如果现在全身心重新投入事业并取得巨大的成功，她内心会涌起一种对离世伴侣的隐隐内疚感。虽然理性上知道这种内疚是不合理的，但情绪层面却难以抹去。面对即将到来的新书出版和宣传日程，她正通过与挚友倾诉来直面这一心结。斯蒂芬随后提出了一个极富想象力的假想：如果两人十年后再聚首，而这十年成为了她人生中极其辉煌成功的一个篇章，那时会是怎样的场景？塔拉沉思片刻，眼中闪烁起光芒，微笑着说道：“那我一定已经走出了自我内耗，勇敢地站在了聚光灯下，真正地全然绽放，并且切实地帮助到了无数的人。”看着她脸上绽放的笑容，斯蒂芬也露出了欣慰的神情。 --- ### [01:36:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5808s) 彼此成就的感激与对话带来的“不可知论”转向 在温情流淌的气氛中，塔拉真诚地向斯蒂芬致谢，感谢他为自己所做的一切。斯蒂芬立刻回应道这种感激是相互的，塔拉在节目中的分享对这档播客具有里程碑式的意义；直到今天，世界各地仍有源源不断的听众走向他，讲述那期对话如何启发了他们的人生，并让他们深刻领悟到“我们所知道的，绝非世界的全部”。 斯蒂芬坦言，尽管自己在这场关于神秘现象和亡者沟通的对话中始终扮演着理性怀疑者的角色，但长期主持深度对谈却带来了一个奇妙的悖论：一个人原以为随着经历丰富会懂得知晓得越来越多，事实却恰恰相反——无数打破认知的深度对话让他越来越看清未知的辽阔，进而彻底倒向了一种谦逊的“不可知论”（agnosticism）立场。他不再落入“自以为全知”的认知陷阱，因而也更加难以盲目顺从任何绝对化的教条信仰或坚定的无神论断言，而是选择对一切未知抱有敬畏与接纳。 ### [01:37:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5868s) 保持开放与“DOAC”的核心内核：怀疑、觉察与联结 Steven Bartlett 坦诚分享了自己认知迭代的心路历程。他谈到自己经常在听到某种全新观点时先是充满怀疑，随后经过反思、查阅相关科学与研究证据，最终推翻过去的预设并改变主意。他指出，如果一个人一生中能推翻自己的想法这么多次，就应当明白“心智绝不应该死板地固守在任何固定的立场上”。Dr. Tara Swart 对此深表赞同，感叹能够听到这样的真知灼见对听众而言意义极其重大。Steven 借此首次向公众揭秘了播客名字“DOAC”在团队内部被赋予的一套深层精神内核缩写： ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: DOAC精神内核架构 accDescr: 展示Steven Bartlett对DOAC字母缩写的精神内涵解析 D["D: Dreamers<br>敢于探索的梦想家"] --> O["O: Open-minded<br>不设界限的开放心智"] O --> A["A: Awareness<br>对身心与现实的深度觉察"] A --> C["C: Connection<br>打破孤独的共鸣与联结"] ``` Steven 解释道，保持怀疑精神固然健康，但唯有配合开放的心态，才能将这些前沿讨论作为验证生活的实验，进而在亲身体验中捕获属于自己的证据。他指出，人类历史上那些敢于打破“已知安全区”的先驱——例如提出“日心说”或指出地球不是扁平的人——往往承受了无数的冷嘲热讽和明枪暗箭，却最终推动了整个人类文明走向更宏大的认知境界。面对本期关于哀伤、直觉与死后沟通的敏感话题，Steven 特别呼吁评论区的受众展现同理心与善意，因为面对脆弱的生命经历与丧亲之痛，每个人都在竭力探寻走向幸福与联结的路径。 - **DOAC 的核心价值拆解**： - **D（Dreamers）**：心怀憧憬、不被现实规训的梦想家。 - **O（Open-minded）**：放下偏见、愿意倾听异见的开放头脑。 - **A（Awareness）**：持续拓展意识与觉察，涵盖身心健康、心理机制乃至自我认知。 - **C（Connection）**：在真实故事中体悟“我也曾经历这种痛苦”的心灵共鸣与情感联结。 ### [01:40:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=6038s) 终极传统提问：他人为你做过的最美好的事 节目进入标志性的压轴环节：由上一位匿名嘉宾在未曾预知下一位受访者身份的情况下留下一道问题。当 Steven 打开笔记本读出留给 Tara 的问题——“别人为你做过的最美好的事情是什么？”（"What is the best thing that someone has done for you?"）时，Tara 倒吸了一口气，甚至笑着质疑 Steven 是不是在信口胡诌。Steven 展现手写本以示公正后，Tara 情绪转为肃穆而动情，沉思片刻给出了全场最纯粹有力的回答： > "It's got to be Robin showing me that unconditional love really does exist."（“一定是 Robin 让我亲眼看到，无条件的爱是真正存在的。”） 这一瞬间不仅精准呼应了前文中她对亡夫跨越维度的思念与精神沟通，也为整场探索生死与意识边界的对话落下了温暖深沉的情感注脚。 ### [01:41:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=6073s) 融合理性与直觉的新书《The Signs》与由衷致谢 Steven 盛赞 Dr. Tara Swart 即将于 9 月出版的重磅新作《The Signs: The New Science of How to Trust Your Instincts》（《征兆：如何相信直觉的新科学》）。他指出，Tara 最为不可替代的独特特质，在于她能够将深厚的神经科学专业研究与超越物质层面的生命洞察融为一体，从而架起一座罕见的桥梁。在她的笔下，坚定的怀疑论者与满怀信念的探索者被罕见地聚拢在同一间屋子里，共同审视一种能为陷入迷茫者提供救赎的新现实观。 Steven 强调，在当代社会充斥着普遍的孤独感与过度个体主义的背景下，人类极度需要能拓宽认知边界、重塑联结的书籍。他由衷回顾了多年前 Tara 首次做客该节目时的情景，由衷感谢她当年的卓越分享为播客带来了巨大而忠实的全新受众群，彻底奠定了这档节目此后令人瞩目的发展轨迹。 ### [01:42:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=6150s) 播客呼吁与“DOAC Circle”私密社群揭秘 在节目的尾声，Steven 向长期收听节目的老听众公布了一组令人诧异的数据：经常收听本节目的常客中，有高达 53% 的人尚未点击订阅。他恳请喜欢节目的受众通过轻点“订阅”键给予最实际的免费支持，并承诺团队将以此为动力，根据听众反馈持续追踪并邀请最具价值的重磅嘉宾。 紧接着，Steven 宣布正式推出名为“DOAC Circle”的全新私密社群，首期仅开放前 10,000 个名额，随后将关闭入口。该社群将为核心听众解锁此前从未公开展出的独家幕后资源： - **独家幕后提纲**：录制现场 Steven 本人使用的 iPad 采访提纲与调研底稿。 - **未公开音视频**：从未对外发布的删减对话、嘉宾幕后互动以及被雪藏的神秘特辑。 - **直接决策权**：成员享有与 Steven 及制作团队直接沟通的特权，可深度参与节目策划，提议采访议题并决定下一阶段的邀请嘉宾。 ## Notable quotes > [19:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1164s) 我们现在所确认的许多真理，在过去都曾被视作不可能；同理，未来也会有今天未知的事物变得清晰明了。 — Dr. Tara Swart > [20:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=1253s) 为什么探讨死后联系与精神世界会成为一种禁忌？为什么我们不能让自己获得启迪、感到更充实、更有连接感？迄今为止我们那套僵化狭隘的认知模式，显然并没有让我们过得更好。 — Dr. Tara Swart > [35:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2141s) 或许在生死交界之处，我们看清了一直存在却在健康时不愿承认的真相——心灵与身体本就可以彼此独立运作。 — Prof. Alexander Batthyany > [39:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=2375s) 如果一个科学家认为我们目前所知的一切就是世界的全部真相，那从事科学研究就毫无意义了。 — Dr. Tara Swart > [01:10:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4246s) 我们可以选择让它成为一场精神革命。 — Dr. Tara Swart > [01:12:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=4368s) When I thought this was the end, I just kept thinking, please let me see her face one more time. — Robin > [01:24:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5053s) 我做过神经科医生、精神科医生和高管教练，我的整个人生都在助人，我根本不需要让我丈夫遭受如此残酷的折磨和死亡，来换取我助人的资格。 — Dr. Tara Swart > [01:29:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5361s) 我们研究眼睛都150年了，难道还会漏掉一种细胞让你找出来？ — 主流学界同行 > [01:35:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5710s) 那我一定已经走出了自我内耗，勇敢地站在了聚光灯下，真正地全然绽放，并且切实地帮助到了无数的人。 — Dr. Tara Swart > [01:37:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=5868s) 心智绝不应该死板地固守在任何固定的立场上。 — Steven Bartlett > [01:40:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI&t=6038s) It's got to be Robin showing me that unconditional love really does exist. — Dr. Tara Swart ## Mentioned Tara Swart, Steven Bartlett, The Diary Of A CEO, The Source, The Signs: The New Science of How to Trust Your Instincts, Robin, Carl Jung, Alexander McQueen, Kurt Cobain, Vincent van Gogh, Mary Neal, Surviving Death, Eben Alexander, Proof of Heaven, Bruce Greyson, Alexander Batthyany, Threshold, David Eagleman, Donald Hoffman, Bessel van der Kolk, The Body Keeps the Score, KetoneIQ, Pipedrive, Cadence, George Heaton, Ross Mackay, Joy Milne, Russell Foster, DOAC Circle ## Video description What if your brain filters out true reality? World-leading neuroscientist Dr Tara Swart reveals why we have 34 senses, not 5, how grief cracked open her consciousness, and the shocking science behind signs, intuition, and real communication with the dead. Dr Tara Swart is a renowned neuroscientist, psychiatrist, and senior MIT lecturer who holds a PhD in neuropharmacology. She is also the best selling author of books such as, ‘The Source’ and her newest release, ‘The Signs: The New Science of How to Trust Your Instincts’. She explains: ▪️ How to decode signs from loved ones who have passed ▪️ Why most people dismiss near-death experiences, until they see the data ▪️ How Dr Swart speaks with her husband daily, and what she’s learned ▪️ The ancient practices and modern neuroscience helping us heal grief ▪️ Why creativity, numbers, and synchronicities are the hidden language of the soul 00:00 Intro 02:09 Shocking New Research About Brain Capabilities 05:29 What's the Secret You've Been Hiding From the World? 17:35 You Need to Train to See the Signs 23:49 I Was Communicating With My Dead Husband Every Day 33:49 What Happens in Near-Death Experiences 41:16 How to Train to See These Signs 44:38 How Does Spirituality Help Us? 46:01 The Science Behind Intuition 49:44 Healing From Grief 54:52 The Shocking Link Between Your Gut and Intuition 58:09 Ads 59:16 How to Emulate Near-Death Experiences 1:02:38 How Do We Know It's Not Just Our Brain Chemicals Tricking Us? 1:09:12 The Pursuit of Meaning and the Rise of Personal Crisis 01:22:20 Ads 1:24:13 Should You Find Love Again After Your Loved One's Death? 1:29:21 Do Animals See Signs? 1:33:52 The Power of Gratitude and Noticing Beauty Around Us 1:37:41 A Message to My Audience 1:40:50 The Best Thing That Someone Has Done for You Follow Dr Tara: ▪️ Instagram - https://bit.ly/40WmcQV ▪️ Website - https://bit.ly/4musway You can pre-order Dr Tara’s new book, ‘The Signs’, here: https://amzn.to/44LS0dc The Diary Of A CEO: ⬜️Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ⬜️Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook ⬜️The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt ⬜️The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb ⬜️Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt ⬜️Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Pipedrive - http://pipedrive.com/CEO KetoneIQ - Visit https://ketone.com/STEVEN for 30% off your subscription order Cadence - https://usecadence.com/ with code DIARY for an extra 15% off first subscription order Plus month 2: a free Cadence bottle Month 3: a free 30x sachet pack" [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yfEQRqFo2bI)

[19:24] Dr. Tara Swart: 我们现在所确认的许多真理，在过去都曾被视作不可能；同理，未来也会有今天未知的事物变得清晰明了。 [20:53] Dr. Tara Swart: 为什么探讨死后联系与精神世界会成为一种禁忌？为什么我们不能让自己获得启迪、感到更充实、更有连接感？迄今为止我们那套僵化狭隘的认知模式，显然并没有让我们过得更好。 [35:41] Prof. Alexander Batthyany: 或许在生死交界之处，我们看清了一直存在却在健康时不愿承认的真相——心灵与身体本就可以彼此独立运作。 [39:35] Dr. Tara Swart: 如果一个科学家认为我们目前所知的一切就是世界的全部真相，那从事科学研究就毫无意义了。 [70:46] Dr. Tara Swart: 我们可以选择让它成为一场精神革命。 [72:48] Robin: When I thought this was the end, I just kept thinking, please let me see her face one more time. [84:13] Dr. Tara Swart: 我做过神经科医生、精神科医生和高管教练，我的整个人生都在助人，我根本不需要让我丈夫遭受如此残酷的折磨和死亡，来换取我助人的资格。 [89:21] 主流学界同行: 我们研究眼睛都150年了，难道还会漏掉一种细胞让你找出来？ [95:10] Dr. Tara Swart: 那我一定已经走出了自我内耗，勇敢地站在了聚光灯下，真正地全然绽放，并且切实地帮助到了无数的人。 [97:48] Steven Bartlett: 心智绝不应该死板地固守在任何固定的立场上。 [100:38] Dr. Tara Swart: It's got to be Robin showing me that unconditional love really does exist.

[2:09] Dr. Tara Swart: The brain actually filters down the capability of the mind so that we can exist on this material plane. [72:48] Robin: When I thought this was the end, I just kept thinking, please let me see her face one more time. [80:15] Dr. Tara Swart: Don't say that because I don't think that exists. [100:50] Steven Bartlett: What is the best thing that someone has done for you?

[0:00] If what you're saying is true, then I [0:01] mean, this is a revelation. Yeah. And I [0:04] I couldn't speak about it until now that [0:06] it's possible to communicate with [0:08] someone that's passed away. [0:10] And I'm saying it from the point of view [0:12] of being a neuroscientist and a [0:13] psychiatrist. And it's taboo because we [0:15] are afraid that people think we're going [0:18] insane. I mean, I've been part of teams [0:20] that have locked people up and had them [0:21] injected with stuff against their will [0:23] because of things they were saying [0:24] that's not that dissimilar to things [0:25] I've experienced. So, I wanted to find [0:28] out as much science as I could to try to [0:30] back it up. And do you think you found [0:31] the answer? [0:32] >> Yeah. How sure are you? [0:33] >> 100%. And the things I found out are [0:35] going to shock you. [0:37] The floor is yours. [0:38] Okay. So, I'm Dr. Tara Swart. I'm a [0:41] neuroscientist and a medical doctor who [0:43] specialized in psychiatry. And I lost my [0:46] beloved husband to leukemia almost 4 [0:48] years ago. [0:49] 2 days before our fourth wedding [0:51] anniversary. And everything I believed [0:53] in [0:54] had gone wrong. [0:56] I was just totally lost and broken. But [0:59] then, I started getting signs from my [1:00] husband. And in my desperation, I did [1:03] consult a couple of mediums. But not [1:05] being impressed by them, I ended up [1:07] thinking, "If it's possible to [1:09] communicate with someone that's passed [1:11] away, and I am all about optimizing my [1:13] brain, then I should be able to do it [1:15] myself." So, I went down a rabbit hole. [1:17] And what I've uncovered in this research [1:19] is going to have a really beneficial [1:20] effect on a lot of people. Why? Because [1:23] it means that we are capable of so much [1:25] more than what we think the human mind [1:26] is capable of. [1:27] >> So, listen, here's what I'm going to do. [1:28] I'm going to try and ask the questions [1:29] and challenge you in ways that I think [1:31] the viewer might challenge you. I want [1:33] you to ask me those questions. [1:38] I see messages all the time in the [1:40] comment section that some of you didn't [1:41] realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you [1:43] could do me a favor and double-check if [1:45] you're a subscriber to this channel, [1:46] that would be tremendously appreciated. [1:48] It's the simple It's the free thing that [1:50] anybody that watches this show [1:51] frequently can do to help us here to [1:53] keep everything going in this show in [1:54] the trajectory it's on. So, please do [1:56] double-check if you subscribed and uh [1:58] thank you so much because in a strange [2:00] way you are you're part of our history [2:02] and you're on this journey with us and I [2:03] appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank [2:05] you. [2:09] Dr. Tara Swart, [2:12] good to see you again. You, too. Thank [2:14] you for coming back. You were our most [2:16] viewed guest on the show of all time. [2:19] Our last conversation did just over 20 [2:21] million views and downloads, which is [2:23] pretty staggering, but you're back to [2:24] talk about something entirely different [2:26] this time. [2:26] >> Mhm. [2:27] Which is this idea of science, which [2:29] kind of intertwines with all of your [2:31] work on neuroscience that you've done [2:32] throughout your career. [2:34] My first question to you is what is it [2:36] that you think you know that the vast [2:38] majority of people don't quite [2:40] understand, comprehend, or have accepted [2:42] yet. And take me right back to the sort [2:44] of first principles of [2:46] that thinking. [2:47] I believe that we are capable of so much [2:50] more than what we think the human mind [2:51] is capable of now. And I believe that [2:54] the brain actually filters down the [2:56] capability of the mind so that we can [2:58] exist on this material plane. And [3:02] things that I found out during research [3:04] for The Science is going to shock you. [3:07] The abilities that we have that we're [3:08] not aware of are way beyond what you [3:11] might even imagine right now. In what [3:13] departments and facets of my life? [3:16] Let's just start with something really [3:17] simple. How many senses do you think we [3:18] have? Five. I can I can smell, I can [3:21] touch, um I can hear, I can see. [3:24] Um [3:25] is it five though? I think Yeah, five. [3:27] Is it five? Have you heard of a sixth [3:28] sense? [3:30] Being able to see ghosts and stuff? [3:32] Okay. So, I think most people would [3:34] agree that we have five senses. And some [3:36] people would say, "Isn't there something [3:38] like a sixth sense?" And I don't think [3:39] it's agreed what that might be. So, I [3:41] actually did a literature review of [3:43] several pieces of research about how [3:45] many senses humans have. [3:48] And we actually have 34 as we currently [3:50] understand it. 34? [3:54] And so, what does this mean? Like, what [3:55] is the cuz you're making an assertion [3:57] here? [3:58] What is the assertion that you're [3:59] making, and what does that mean for the [4:01] material sort of uh consequences of my [4:03] life? [4:05] I'm making hypothesis based on both the [4:07] analogy of the observable universe and [4:10] the fact that we have this expanded [4:12] suite of senses to challenge you to [4:15] understand that you are capable of much [4:17] more than you think you are. And you [4:18] know, you're a really good case in point [4:20] for me because you love rationality and [4:23] data and science, and you don't really [4:25] love intuition and [4:27] the you know, the unknown, the unseen. [4:29] So, you know, I think if I can convince [4:31] you of anything by the end of this [4:33] podcast, then [4:34] the impact that that could have on [4:36] society, I think, is huge. I mean, the [4:38] things I found out are going to shock [4:39] you. What do you mean by that? [4:42] I, as you know, was a was a psychiatrist [4:45] in the past. So, I'm able to diagnose [4:49] people and say whether they have a [4:50] mental illness or not. [4:52] In the past 4 years, [4:55] I've been keeping a secret, [4:57] and [4:58] there were times in that 4 years that I [5:00] had to ask myself if I was in clinical [5:03] depression, [5:04] if I was psychotic, if I was manic, [5:08] if [5:10] the way that my consciousness was [5:12] expanding, [5:13] I mean, Steve, I've I've been part of [5:15] teams that have locked people up and [5:17] put, [5:18] you know, had them injected with stuff [5:20] against their will because of things [5:21] they were saying. That's not that [5:22] dissimilar to things I've experienced in [5:24] the last 4 years. [5:27] So, [5:29] I guess we better get into the secret [5:30] because I sat here with you almost 2 [5:32] years ago now, and we had a fantastic [5:34] conversation, [5:35] but there was something you didn't tell [5:37] my audience when we had that [5:38] conversation that reached more than 20 [5:40] million people. There was something at [5:42] that moment in time that you didn't tell [5:43] me, [5:44] which was this secret you've been [5:46] keeping. [5:48] What is the secret, Tara? [5:50] Um [5:51] I lost my beloved husband to leukemia [5:54] almost 4 years ago. [5:57] And I've written this book which [5:59] mentions my personal story, so [6:02] and I trust you. So, I really wanted to [6:05] come back on [6:07] the podcast and just explain a little [6:10] bit to people about what's been going on [6:11] for me for the last 4 years. [6:13] So, your husband [6:15] Robin. [6:17] You met him 2016. [6:20] And he passed he passed away from [6:22] leukemia in [6:24] 2021. [6:25] >> 2021. Now, from 2021 when he passed [6:29] away, what what happened in your life? [6:31] What was going on in your world? If I [6:32] was a fly on the wall in your contacts, [6:34] what would I have seen? [6:37] He'd been given 2 weeks to live, but he [6:38] actually lived for 3 and 1/2 weeks. [6:41] And he died 2 days before our fourth [6:44] wedding anniversary, so I was literally [6:47] reading condolence cards on my fourth [6:48] wedding anniversary. [6:51] If it wasn't for the people that I have [6:52] around me who became like a fortress, [6:55] I don't think I would be here today. [6:57] You know, never having had that [6:59] experience before, it was just so so [7:01] devastating. Um [7:03] and even though I'm a neuroscientist and [7:05] a psychiatrist, I just [7:09] I just was like like totally lost and [7:11] broken. [7:13] And then [7:15] I started seeing robins in the garden [7:17] every single time I went to the window, [7:19] both in Hampshire and London. [7:22] I've never ever seen so many robins in [7:24] my life, like not before or since. I [7:26] still see them sometimes, but [7:28] I noticed it. I thought [7:31] of course, that's what I want to see. I [7:33] have no idea what it means if anything. [7:37] Um [7:39] and then about 6 weeks after he passed [7:41] away, [7:43] I was asleep [7:44] and I heard a noise in the distance and [7:47] we had been burgled once, so I went to [7:49] check it wasn't the alarm in the [7:50] garages. [7:52] Couldn't work out what it was, thought [7:53] maybe it was birds in the distance, went [7:54] back to sleep, it was about 4:00 a.m. [7:56] And then I got woken up [7:59] by a massive thump to my shoulder. [8:02] I wouldn't demonstrate it on you because [8:04] it would be too much for me to hit you [8:06] that hard. It wasn't like a tap. So, [8:08] opened my eyes [8:10] and I could see next to my bed [8:14] a very vague, hazy version of Robin as [8:18] if he was pushing himself through [8:20] treacle to be seen. [8:22] And I was just transfixed and I saw him [8:25] become more and more clear. [8:27] I could see the outline of his hair and [8:28] his face and then suddenly he just [8:31] dissolved from the top down and my eyes [8:32] went like this and I remember seeing his [8:34] shins and his feet. And I was like up on [8:36] my elbow watching and I I just gasped [8:39] out loud. [8:41] In my desperation, I did consult a [8:44] couple of mediums. [8:46] And again, I had that dual conversation. [8:49] I said to myself, this is the kind of [8:51] thing that crazy, desperate people do. [8:55] And within the same breath, it's okay [8:57] for me to be crazy and desperate right [8:59] now. I've lost my best friend, my life [9:01] partner, like my everything I thought [9:03] about how the world worked has crashed [9:05] around me. [9:07] And I ended up think, you know, being [9:09] not being impressed by the mediums and [9:12] just at some point, I can't even [9:14] remember when now, thinking, if it's [9:16] possible to communicate with someone [9:17] that's [9:19] passed away. [9:21] And he was my husband and my best [9:22] friend. [9:23] And I am all about optimizing my brain [9:26] and expanding my consciousness, then I [9:28] should be able to do it myself. That's [9:31] that's the start of my journey that I've [9:32] written about in signs. [9:34] And do you think you found the answer? [9:36] >> Yeah. [9:38] How sure are you? 100%. [9:42] I mean if if if what you're saying is [9:43] true then [9:46] that's a pretty I mean that's a [9:47] revelation, right? So many people have [9:49] lost lost people or [9:51] um [9:52] have gone through different types of [9:53] loss in their life and it you're telling [9:55] me that through [9:57] the work you've done over the last [9:58] couple of years and the research you've [9:59] done [10:00] you understand how to communicate with [10:02] them in some capacity? Mhm. [10:05] And you're 100% sure? 100%. So listen, [10:07] here's what I'm going to do. I'm going [10:09] to I'm going to [10:11] I'm going to I'm going to challenge you [10:12] in ways that I think um [10:14] the viewer might [10:16] challenge you sat at home. So I'm going [10:17] to try and ask the questions that the [10:19] viewer might ask because there's you [10:21] know people [10:22] the I this idea is quite a significant [10:25] perspective shifting one. So my job in [10:28] this conversation, although these are [10:29] sensitive matters matters of course is [10:31] just to try and play devil's advocate [10:32] where I can. [10:34] I just I want to say that you know you [10:35] know me Yeah, I know you. [10:37] >> know that you've asked me to come back [10:38] on the podcast several times and I've [10:40] come when I'm ready. Yeah. So I want you [10:42] to ask me those questions. [10:43] >> Yeah. So when does this journey begin [10:45] then? So this you suffer this tragic [10:48] loss in your life. You go to the [10:49] mediums. [10:51] You're let down by them. Where does this [10:53] begin? Where does your research your [10:54] your journey of discovery begin? [10:57] It starts with this decision to um [11:00] you know, try to [11:03] communicate with him myself. [11:06] There's a realization at some point that [11:08] it's not a one-way thing that when [11:10] people pass away, they also have to [11:12] learn. So it's it's it's like two people [11:15] having to learn a language to speak to [11:16] each other. Like two people who speak a [11:18] different language having to learn a [11:20] language that they can both speak. [11:23] That's that's how it felt. [11:25] Obviously as a scientist, I then wanted [11:27] to find out as much science as I could [11:30] to to try to back it up which really [11:32] comes down to the science of whether [11:35] the mind or the psyche or the soul can [11:37] exist separately from the body. Mhm. [11:40] And I will say that way before I even [11:42] started thinking about this stuff, just [11:43] the the moment that he died, which he [11:45] died in front of me, [11:47] once he'd actually passed away, I [11:50] remember a really strong feeling of [11:51] looking at his body and just knowing [11:53] that wasn't him. [11:55] And that the essence of who he was, I [11:56] didn't know where it was, but it was not [11:58] there lying in that bed. [12:00] And when did you [12:02] realize that you were going to start to [12:04] collect research and do research on this [12:06] idea of being able to communicate in [12:08] ways that most people don't realize we [12:10] can communicate through signs? And also, [12:12] when you talk about being able to [12:13] communicate through [12:15] these 30-plus senses, is that just with [12:18] the dead or is that with each other? [12:22] Like, can I communicate through you [12:23] know, is there other ways that I can tap [12:24] into these senses that you discovered [12:26] through your research [12:28] that will help me be more effective with [12:30] the living, too? Mhm. [12:31] I mean, I think it starts with yourself. [12:33] So, I think that the fact that if you're [12:36] not even aware that you've got 34 [12:37] senses, then you're obviously not [12:38] consciously tapping into [12:41] something that you're not aware of. [12:43] And and some of them are non-conscious [12:44] senses anyway. Um things like the pH of [12:47] your blood or like the balance of oxygen [12:49] and carbon dioxide in your blood. You're [12:50] you know, you're not going to be [12:52] conscious of those. You can't [12:53] necessarily exert much control over [12:55] them, although obviously if you slow [12:57] down your breathing or you do a certain [12:58] type of breath work, it it could have an [13:00] impact on those things. The conclusion [13:02] that I came to, [13:04] so like I said, I went to the brink a [13:06] few times. I went to the brink [13:08] Let me give you the first example. I [13:10] realized that the first anniversary was [13:12] coming up on October 26th. [13:15] And around, you know, a couple of months [13:17] before that, I was doing the best that I [13:19] had been doing so far, but I was very [13:21] aware this anniversary was coming, and I [13:23] wanted to prepare myself mentally. [13:26] But from the 4th of October, [13:29] I suddenly like was in aches and pains [13:31] all over my body, which actually lasted [13:34] for 6 or 7 weeks and it was accompanied [13:36] by me feeling so depressed [13:39] that I actually had to look in the [13:40] mirror and like go through the criteria [13:42] for clinical depression and work out if [13:44] I was actually depressed or not. [13:46] Um [13:47] and I didn't meet all the criteria, but [13:49] I was in this physical pain. I could not [13:51] understand why. [13:53] I went for a massage. It was so painful [13:54] I didn't go again for a year. [13:57] So eventually I looked through my um [13:59] diary or calendar on my phone [14:01] and I looked back to October 4th, which [14:03] was the day that it started, [14:05] and that was the day that I'd taken him [14:07] home to die. [14:08] That was the day I took him home from [14:09] hospital. I didn't remember that date, [14:12] but clearly my body had and the trauma [14:13] was just re-emerging as like physical [14:15] pain. [14:17] Um [14:18] and I only realized quite a lot later [14:19] that I had to to do some somatic work to [14:22] actually get rid of [14:23] the last bits of trauma that [14:25] um talking therapy can't actually get [14:27] to. Somatic work. So body body work, [14:30] whether that's massage or dance or art [14:34] or craniosacral therapy or [14:37] tai chi, you know, like anything [14:38] physical. [14:39] Because basically there's an area in the [14:42] brain. It's actually inside, so I can't [14:44] really show it to you on this, but it's [14:45] kind of inside there. [14:47] And that part of the brain is to do with [14:49] articulating speech [14:51] and it basically gets shut down by [14:52] trauma. [14:53] So those sort of phrases like I'm [14:55] speechless or I'm dumbfounded or I have [14:57] no words [14:59] indicates the fact that there may be [15:01] residual trauma that's held in your body [15:02] that you can't actually articulate and [15:04] get out and solve through talking [15:06] therapy. [15:07] So it requires some kind of physical [15:08] therapy. So that was obviously to do [15:11] with my um sense of pain. [15:14] And it took me a little while to kind of [15:16] put together what that might mean by [15:18] really like tapping into why it was my [15:19] body [15:20] um manifesting pain to to sort of remind [15:24] me of something or show me something. [15:26] But also, in the first couple of weeks [15:28] after [15:30] um, Robin's body [15:32] Robin's body was taken away the morning [15:33] after he died. And it was uh [15:37] just under 2 weeks till the cremation. [15:40] In that time, I would wake up in the [15:42] morning and I would be absolutely [15:44] freezing cold, like shaking and [15:46] shivering. And it was October, it wasn't [15:48] like midwinter. [15:50] And I would blast up the heating. When [15:52] someone else was in the house, I would [15:53] realize it it was like a sauna, it was [15:55] actually a bit embarrassing and had to [15:56] like, you know, turn it down and like [15:57] open some windows. And Robin actually [16:00] hated being cold. And he would have been [16:02] in the morgue in a refrigerated drawer [16:04] that whole time. And again, I think it [16:07] was my sense of temperature that was [16:10] kind of on the same wavelength as where [16:12] I didn't consciously think of where he [16:14] was, but I was feeling freezing cold. [16:17] So, it was [16:18] looking back, it was things like that [16:20] were coincidences, absolutely. But then, [16:23] over time, and I'm talking a couple of [16:25] years, I could ask for specific signs [16:28] and get them. [16:29] Sometimes at first it would take a [16:31] while, and then it became like it would [16:33] happen that day. [16:34] I could ask a question in my head and [16:36] get an answer. I mentioned having, you [16:38] know, sort of again being at the brink [16:39] of my sanity, having to question things. [16:42] I was experiencing something called [16:44] thought insertion, which um, in [16:46] psychiatry is one of the symptoms of [16:47] schizophrenia. It's when you have a [16:49] thought in your head that you know isn't [16:51] yours. [16:52] So, I was experiencing that really [16:54] vividly. [16:55] But can you imagine experiencing that [16:57] and at the same time being a [16:58] psychiatrist that is is saying, "Right, [17:01] Tara, you do realize you are having like [17:03] a psychotic symptom." [17:05] And [17:06] so, in my research, one of the things I [17:08] realized that maybe, you know, if you're [17:10] going through grief and you don't know [17:11] the things that I know, [17:13] you can't [17:14] articulate to yourself that grief in [17:16] many ways is like psychosis. [17:19] It's changing the levels of [17:20] neurotransmitters in your head. It's [17:22] changing the electric electric and [17:24] chemical like signaling in your head. I [17:26] just have so much empathy for people [17:28] that [17:29] that have to go through that and don't [17:31] have the wherewithal or the resources [17:32] that [17:33] that I did. [17:35] Do you think one needs to cultivate [17:36] their ability to see signs? Do you think [17:38] it's like going to the gym? Totally. [17:40] Totally. I've It took me years. Um and [17:43] like I said, I believe it took him years [17:45] as well. Um [17:47] So yeah, I I say it's like learning a [17:48] language, but you're right. It's like [17:50] going to the gym. And what does one need [17:51] to do in that gym to grow their [17:55] sign muscle? [17:57] Well, it always starts with believing, [17:58] right? [17:59] >> Yeah. Um Do you think that's what one of [18:01] the big issues in terms of being able to [18:03] access these other dimensions or [18:05] dynamics is most people just don't [18:07] believe in it? [18:09] So I wouldn't I'm not even sure if I'd [18:10] say most people. I'd say a lot of people [18:12] don't believe in it. Or they secretly [18:14] do, but they're scared to talk about it [18:15] cuz they think people ridicule them. [18:17] Yeah. Cuz cuz I don't know. My my brain [18:20] my brain feels like I need to have the [18:23] scientific evidence of things for me to [18:26] accept them because I think sometimes I [18:27] worry that if I don't have [18:29] scientific rigor around my beliefs, then [18:31] I would I'm susceptible to believe [18:33] anything. And I'll believe it in a [18:34] spaghetti monster at the bottom of the [18:35] garden and I'll believe, you know, every [18:37] religion in the world and every and [18:39] everything and then I'm unanchored and [18:40] then I blow around like a plastic bag in [18:42] the wind and then I have no orientation. [18:44] Yeah. [18:44] >> Yeah. So I think rigor is [18:46] the basis of my beliefs. I have to have [18:48] some sort of scientific evidence. [18:50] I know you do. Yeah. [18:53] Um It's not to say I'm not open-minded [18:54] because I've had my mind changed so many [18:56] times in my life that one would be [18:59] dumb now to not be open-minded and to [19:01] not listen. I agree with you about [19:03] rigor. I completely agree with. My [19:04] entire career has been based on that, [19:06] but [19:07] I just you know, I was pushed up against [19:09] a wall, so I had to [19:10] think differently. And I think the [19:12] question that I posed to myself is is [19:14] what if? You had to think differently. [19:17] So, um the psychologist Carl Jung talks [19:20] about um when he talks about the [19:22] collective unconscious, he talks about [19:24] those basically three main things that [19:27] all humans experience, which is birth, [19:29] life, and death. And so, we have this [19:31] common experience, which is actually [19:34] part of our inherited gene and brain [19:36] structure. Um so, everyone who's ever [19:39] lived will experience those things. [19:41] But if we look at ancient wisdom, [19:43] for a start, [19:45] we are made of the carbon and hydrogen [19:47] and oxygen and nitrogen that came from [19:49] the Big Bang. So, we're all made of the [19:51] same thing. Our ancestors lived in the [19:53] cycle with nature. I think us actually [19:55] having broken our connection to nature [19:57] is a huge part of why we're so [19:59] disconnected and unhappy. [20:01] So, if you think of the life cycle of a [20:03] salmon, for example, [20:05] it, you know, it goes through its life [20:08] cycle, and eventually its bones [20:10] contribute to the phosphorus on the um [20:12] floor of the forest. So, it never really [20:14] goes away. [20:15] Um [20:16] in many other ways, our ancestors [20:18] repeatedly saw the cycles of nature, and [20:20] therefore [20:21] always kind of knew that everything gets [20:23] renewed and nothing ever completely goes [20:25] away. And [20:27] I think that's a really important thing [20:28] to return to. I think, [20:30] you know, when we question things, which [20:32] you're absolutely right to do, [20:34] I think we have to look at things that [20:36] we didn't think were true that we now [20:38] know are true as just ways of being open [20:42] to the fact that things in the future [20:44] might become obvious or known that [20:47] aren't known now. I think that is an [20:49] important place of being open-minded to [20:52] to sit at. [20:53] And so, for example, [20:56] um [20:58] want to hear about slime mold? [21:00] You tell me if that's something I want [21:02] to hear about. [21:04] So, slime mold are single-celled [21:06] organisms like amoeba [21:09] who go about their daily life on their [21:11] own very happily as long as their basic [21:13] needs are met. [21:14] But if for example, they're facing [21:17] potential starvation, they will come [21:20] together and form a slug because the [21:22] slug can move towards your vegetable [21:25] patch, you know, a new food source, and [21:27] they can survive. [21:29] Equally, if they are [21:31] if they are facing potential um [21:34] extinction, [21:36] they will come together and form a a [21:38] sporing body like a mushroom. [21:41] So, that's got a stalk [21:43] and a fruiting body that can release [21:45] spores that will go into the atmosphere [21:47] to all different places where these new [21:49] baby organisms can can grow and thrive. [21:52] But if you think about it, [21:54] the single cells in the stalk [21:58] are sacrificing themselves for the [21:59] greater good cuz there's no chance that [22:01] they're [22:02] they're going to get released into the [22:03] atmosphere as a spore cuz they're in the [22:05] stalk. [22:06] So, some of them actually cheat and [22:08] climb up the stalk to get into the [22:10] fruiting body and displace other cells [22:11] from the fruiting body. [22:14] So, things like that and for example, [22:16] the mycorrhizal network, which is how [22:19] mushrooms and mycelium feed the roots of [22:23] trees, even trees that have been felled [22:26] can be kept alive for centuries because [22:28] the my- mycorrhizal network, which is [22:30] the connection between mycelium and tree [22:32] roots, can bring water and sugar to that [22:36] tree stump to keep it alive. [22:38] And trees and mycelium don't even only [22:41] do it for the same species, they do it [22:42] because they're part of the entire [22:44] forest and it's symbiotic relationship. [22:47] And they care about each other. [22:50] Things like this would have been like [22:52] thought to be fantastical 10 years ago. [22:55] Um you know, we're in in LA at the [22:57] moment and I saw the driverless car for [22:59] the first time. Now, when I was growing [23:02] up watching sci-fi, [23:04] I never thought I'd see that in my life. [23:07] So, that's all I'm saying that [23:10] and and I'm saying it from the point of [23:11] view of being a cognitive scientist and [23:13] I'm talking about the nature of [23:14] consciousness. I'm not talking about [23:16] other not asking you to believe, you [23:18] know, other parts of science, but based [23:20] on the fact that [23:22] we don't know everything. We've learned [23:23] loads of things that we thought weren't [23:25] true before. [23:27] I strongly believe there's a benefit to [23:30] humanity of raising this kind of [23:32] question and having this conversation [23:35] which [23:37] I ask you why it's a taboo conversation. [23:39] What, you know, why shouldn't we be [23:41] enlightened? Why shouldn't we feel [23:42] better? Why shouldn't we be more [23:44] connected? [23:45] Whatever we've been doing up until now [23:47] certainly hasn't been working. [23:50] When when was it that you made the [23:51] decision that you were going to write a [23:53] book about [23:54] this called The Signs? Was there a [23:56] particular moment in this process where [23:58] you realized that you were going to to [24:00] dig deeper and that then you were [24:01] ultimately going to share this with the [24:02] world? [24:04] I wasn't intending to write a book at [24:05] all, but I'd got to the point where I [24:07] had something that I could share with [24:08] people that I actually thought would be [24:09] useful. And at this point you're [24:11] communicating with Robin [24:13] on a daily basis. [24:14] >> On a daily basis. [24:15] >> Yeah. [24:16] Give me some color to that. What does [24:17] that mean? Give me some examples if you [24:19] can. Well, either will be that like I'll [24:21] ask a question in my mind and the answer [24:24] will come in my mind, but I know it's [24:25] not my own thought. Or [24:28] I'll just get a direct like message from [24:29] him in my mind that I know isn't me, but [24:32] mostly it's the signs. So, I've talked [24:35] talked to you about the first [24:36] anniversary and how hard that was. By [24:38] the time of the second anniversary, [24:43] I was actually in America [24:46] and I'd been filming in studio for a [24:48] week and then I was on the road on the [24:50] Navajo Nation [24:52] and that was due to I was due to fly out [24:54] of the Navajo Nation on the second [24:56] anniversary of Robin's passing. [24:58] And [25:00] on by that point, I was feeling a bit [25:02] like I'd completely burnt out. [25:05] And I had a choice about how to [25:07] re-emerge. Um, you know, whether that [25:09] was going to be in a good way or I [25:11] wasn't going to be able to make it. Um, [25:14] and I had this analogy of a phoenix [25:16] rising from the flames in my mind. [25:18] So, on that trip, I said, [25:22] "Darling, [25:24] send me the sign of a phoenix." You said [25:26] that to who? To Robin, in my head. [25:28] And I I chose the phoenix cuz it's [25:30] really unusual. So, it's not like if I [25:32] said, you know, a dog, I'm probably [25:34] going to see a dog on the pavement every [25:36] day. But I chose something that is not [25:38] an easy thing to see. [25:40] And I was actually in Oklahoma City [25:42] where, [25:43] you know, you wouldn't expect [25:45] necessarily to see like something [25:47] unusual. Every single day between my [25:49] hotel and the studio, I went through [25:51] Chinatown and I passed a restaurant [25:53] called the Phoenix Garden with a big [25:54] emblazoned [25:55] like, you know, sign. [25:57] And [25:58] on the way there, I had had an indirect [26:01] flight from Boston and the flight [26:03] leaving Boston was late, so I missed my [26:04] connection in Chicago and I had to spend [26:07] a night in Chicago. [26:09] And then I was, you know, late for [26:10] filming and stuff. And so, when I was [26:12] leaving [26:13] to go to LA, [26:15] I was leaving on a on a [26:18] Sunday. [26:19] And from the Monday onwards, I had a [26:21] podcast every single weekday in LA. [26:24] And so, the team said to me, "We know [26:26] that you cannot miss that flight. We are [26:27] not going to put you on an on an [26:29] indirect flight. We absolutely promise [26:30] you direct flight to LA, so you're fine [26:33] from Monday onwards." [26:35] We were in the middle of nowhere for [26:36] like a week and basically, my flight [26:39] wasn't booked cuz we didn't know which [26:41] airport we were going to be at. We [26:43] arrived on the eve of the anniversary of [26:45] Robin passing and my flight was booked [26:47] that day and it was from Flagstaff in [26:50] the Navajo Nation to LA, [26:53] Flying on the day of his anniversary, no [26:55] direct flights. I had to fly through [26:57] Phoenix, Arizona on the day of his [26:58] anniversary. [27:01] You probably heard of that old analogy [27:03] of when you buy a car, you end up seeing [27:04] the car everywhere on the road. Like I [27:06] buy buy a new car and then I go [27:07] everywhere and it seems like everybody's [27:08] got my car because of Do they call it [27:10] confirmation bias in science, in [27:12] psychology? Where once you've got [27:14] something in your head, you're more [27:15] likely to see that thing. Mhm. I think [27:17] they've done studies on this where if [27:18] you are exposed to something or you're [27:20] told to think about something, you'll [27:21] see it more in the world. How do you [27:23] separate what you're saying from that [27:25] proven psychological phenomenon? [27:28] I don't. I say use it to your advantage. [27:31] But how do you know that wasn't what was [27:32] happening in your life? Because if you [27:34] thought about the word Phoenix and then [27:36] over the course of a couple of days, [27:38] you're looking at everything, but you're [27:39] only going to register the things that [27:40] are emotionally reg- resonant. [27:44] You know, I might have seen Phoenix a [27:45] lot of time over the last 7 days. And it [27:46] means nothing to you. Yeah, so I didn't [27:48] I didn't register it. Again, I would say [27:51] the number of times this has happened. [27:52] There is this the sort of like [27:55] how narrow I make the criteria. So, you [27:58] know, sometimes I say I need to see a [28:01] button or a symbol of a button or the [28:03] word button, but it's got to have [28:05] happened three times by 11:00 p.m. [28:07] tomorrow. [28:08] Um and one of my friends says that, you [28:11] know, we share something which is if you [28:12] see a pair of lions. [28:14] Um and we send each other pictures of [28:16] it, but she says it has to be if you [28:18] went out of your way and you walked a [28:20] different way and then you saw them. If [28:21] it's like you know, the normal way that [28:23] you go or somewhere that you know that [28:25] they exist, that doesn't count. It has [28:26] to be if you went out of your way. So, I [28:28] had a previous um thing with Robin which [28:31] is about the figure of eight or in the [28:33] infinity symbol. Um and there's a story [28:36] in the book of how that was cropping up [28:37] for me when I actually met him. [28:39] But there was a day recently where I had [28:42] some space that I had three spaced out [28:44] meetings in the day. So, I thought I'll [28:45] take the opportunity to walk for an hour [28:47] between them all. [28:48] >> Mhm. [28:49] And for the last meeting of the day, [28:52] I ended up walking past um [28:55] UCH, which is the University College [28:57] Hospital, where he was having treatment. [29:01] And that had been a really traumatic [29:02] time for me when he was in hospital [29:04] there. [29:05] And I have I will have to say I kind of [29:07] avoided that area since then. I'll tell [29:09] you about a particular story that was [29:12] like really traumatizing for me. [29:14] Um so on this walk to um where I was [29:18] going for the evening for a book launch [29:19] event, I ended up walking past the [29:21] hospital. [29:22] And I and I actually said in my head [29:24] like "Why would you make that happen to [29:27] me? Like why why do I have to walk past [29:29] that building? I never want to see that [29:30] building again in my life." [29:33] And again, I said you have to send me a [29:34] sign. [29:36] And um by the time I got to Euston [29:38] Station, so you know, you can people who [29:40] don't know can Google this, it's not [29:41] very far, [29:43] there was an elastic band in the figure [29:44] of eight sign on the pavement, and that [29:47] means something to me. [29:48] Um [29:50] So the thing about this this [29:52] confirmation bias thing is it it's [29:54] dependent on the reticular activating [29:56] system, [29:57] which is the system of your brain that [29:59] filters out what's not crucial to your [30:02] survival and then filters in what it [30:04] wants you to notice. [30:06] And so [30:08] actually, one of the things I've written [30:10] about in the book is the art of [30:12] noticing. [30:14] Because really, we live in this world [30:16] where the li- you know, life is passing [30:18] you by at 100 mph. You're not noticing [30:20] things that could actually be crucial to [30:22] you thriving rather than you just [30:24] surviving. [30:25] And in this model called shared trait [30:28] vulnerability, which falls under the [30:30] field of um research called [30:32] neuroaesthetics, [30:34] so basically, creativity is a positive [30:37] personality trait, right? [30:38] >> Mhm. But there is a a high correlation [30:41] between creativity and psychopathology, [30:43] which is mental illness, particularly [30:46] depression, schizophrenia, and [30:48] alcoholism. [30:49] And there are quite a few high-profile [30:51] examples of um creative people who had [30:54] mental illnesses, like Alexander [30:56] McQueen, [30:57] Kurt Cobain, Van Gogh. So, what that [31:01] shows is that there's an area of overlap [31:05] of three particular ways of thinking [31:08] that are underpinned by neurology [31:10] that are the reasons that people with [31:13] mental illness are so creative. And they [31:17] are basically [31:19] um [31:21] hyperconnectivity. [31:22] So, that's that's two things. That's [31:24] joining the dots in the material world [31:26] of things that aren't obvious to other [31:28] people, [31:29] but it's also hyperconnectivity inside [31:31] the brain. So, if you think about all [31:32] these lobes, [31:35] So happy. If you think about all these [31:37] lobes, [31:38] the more lobes that are firing at the [31:40] same time, and there's also a cortex [31:42] that's known as the association cortex. [31:45] So, that one, you know, these lobes can [31:47] be firing, but they're not necessarily [31:48] connecting up with each other. The more [31:50] interconnected all this firing is in the [31:52] brain, the more the brain opens up to [31:56] new ideas, and so that underpins [31:58] creativity. And also, this usually [32:00] really involves the visual cortex, which [32:02] is in the occipital lobes, and that's [32:04] why sometimes people, whether it's [32:06] through psychedelics or, you know, sort [32:08] of sort of altered states of [32:10] consciousness through creativity, can [32:11] can see things that they didn't see [32:13] before. Mhm. There's also something [32:15] called novelty salience, which is [32:17] noticing new things, um or just noticing [32:20] things of importance that you would [32:21] otherwise have filtered out. And there's [32:24] something called um [32:26] attenuated latent inhibition or low [32:29] latent inhibition, which is to do with [32:31] that filter, [32:32] and it means that the filter allows more [32:34] things in than it normally does. [32:36] >> Mhm. So, you can see we've got [32:38] hyperconnection, we've got noticing more [32:40] things, and we've got the filter like [32:42] loosening and allowing more things in. [32:45] Now, if you've got a high IQ, [32:47] high working memory, [32:49] and you've got cognitive flexibility, [32:51] which is you can think, you know, out of [32:53] the box, that's a really good thing. [32:56] If you've got a low IQ, you've got [32:58] deficits in your working memory, [33:00] and you've got what's called [33:01] perseveration, which is you just go over [33:03] the same thought process process over [33:05] and over again, [33:06] that can lead to you having a [33:07] psychological crisis. [33:10] So, I took that model and thought, "If [33:12] grief is like psychosis, and I'm [33:13] currently in a very vulnerable state, [33:16] is creativity a conduit for me to get [33:19] not only back to the state that I was in [33:20] before, but into a state of expanded [33:24] awareness where I can loosen the filter [33:26] as I choose as I choose fit. I can [33:29] notice things that I would have passed [33:31] by before, [33:32] and I can think differently about how my [33:34] mind works, how the world works, [33:37] possibly what happens after someone [33:39] passes away." [33:41] And then I went and, you know, looked [33:43] into near-death experiences and terminal [33:45] lucidity and dark retreats. Like I said, [33:47] I went down a rabbit hole. And what did [33:49] you find in that rabbit hole? [33:51] At the border of life and death, usually [33:54] within 1 to 24 hours of death, [33:57] someone who has [34:00] whose brain hasn't been functioning, who [34:02] can't remember the names of their own [34:03] children, [34:05] suddenly becomes completely lucid and [34:07] says, "Steven, darling, come over here. [34:09] Let me, you know, let's have a nice like [34:10] mother-son chat." [34:12] And then that gives a lot of people [34:14] hope, but usually that means it's an [34:16] hour or 23 hours till the person's going [34:18] to die. We can't explain that. How can a [34:21] brain that's irreversibly damaged [34:23] suddenly function completely normally? [34:25] There is no explanation for that. [34:27] With the near-death experiences, [34:30] I was particularly compelled by three [34:32] stories. [34:34] Dr. Mary Neal, an orthopedic surgeon, [34:37] she's in that Netflix documentary [34:39] Surviving Death. [34:40] She was submerged underwater for 15 or [34:42] 20 minutes. She should never have been [34:44] able to be resuscitated. [34:46] She describes her whole journey of going [34:48] to another realm, seeing, you know, a [34:50] being of light, being told that her life [34:53] isn't over, she has to turn back and [34:54] return to [34:56] the physical world, even though she [34:58] could see her bloated body and her [35:00] friends trying to reach her to [35:01] resuscitate her and they couldn't. [35:03] Dr. Eben Alexander, who wrote Proof of [35:05] Heaven. [35:07] He is a doctor. He was an atheist. [35:10] He was in a coma with bacterial [35:12] meningitis and was pronounced clinically [35:14] dead. And then basically came back and [35:16] said that he saw heaven. [35:18] And he now believes in a God that is [35:20] benign, that cares about the future of [35:22] humanity. [35:23] So, for me as a doctor, [35:25] hearing these stories from other doctors [35:27] was really, really convincing. [35:30] And then there's one story that um Dr. [35:32] Grayson told me, he's a professor of [35:34] psychiatry at University of Virginia, [35:36] who has done 50 years of research into [35:39] near-death experiences. [35:41] And he told me the story of a patient in [35:43] ICU [35:45] who kept going into cardiac arrest. [35:48] And he had a primary nurse, who was a [35:50] young um 20-year-old nurse and they had [35:52] a really close bond. [35:55] And one weekend, she was she had time [35:57] off for the weekend and he had a [36:00] different nurse looking after him. [36:02] And he went into cardiac arrest and he [36:04] had a near-death experience. [36:06] And in that near-death experience, [36:08] he saw his primary nurse. She said to [36:11] him, "Your life isn't over, you have to [36:12] go back and get better. [36:15] And please tell my parents I'm sorry [36:16] about the red MG." [36:19] So, he wakes up in ICU, he's got this [36:21] replacement nurse looking after him. [36:24] And he says, "The strangest thing just [36:26] happened. [36:27] I um [36:30] had this experience of being in this [36:31] other world. I saw um my primary nurse, [36:35] and she said I had to come back. And she [36:37] also said tell my parents sorry about [36:38] the red MG. [36:40] So, the temporary nurse starts bursting [36:42] into tears, runs out of the room. He has [36:44] no idea why. [36:46] Someone comes in and says what's just [36:47] happened. He explains, [36:49] and they tell him [36:51] that his primary nurse was given a red [36:53] MG for her 21st birthday, [36:56] took it out for a test run, crashed it [36:58] into a tree, and died. [37:00] Now, he didn't know she was dead. [37:03] But he saw her on the other side, and [37:05] she told him to come back. [37:08] And the guy that told you this story was [37:10] who relevant to the patient who said [37:12] that? Dr. Bruce Greyson. He um has done [37:15] 50 years of research on near-death [37:17] experiences. He's got over 5,000 [37:20] recorded cases of patients of his own [37:23] that he's looked after that had [37:25] near-death experiences. And he also [37:27] shared with me with me the numbers of of [37:29] uh [37:30] cases that other people have on [37:31] databases. So, you know, we're looking [37:33] at over 10,000 cases globally recorded [37:36] at the moment. [37:38] What is it that you believe based on [37:39] those near-death experiences like the [37:41] red MG story? [37:42] >> Mhm. [37:43] And based on this phenomenon of terminal [37:47] lucidity? [37:50] So, Professor Alexander Batthyany who [37:51] wrote Threshold about terminal lucidity [37:54] put it really nicely when he said, [37:56] "Maybe at the border of life and death, [37:59] we see something that is true all along, [38:01] but we don't, [38:03] for whatever reason, see it or [38:05] acknowledge it whilst we're alive and [38:07] well, which is that the mind and body [38:10] can operate independently of each [38:12] other." [38:14] It is quite It is quite shocking. [38:15] There's this case from 2009. [38:18] An 82-year-old woman with Alzheimer's [38:20] disease who was nonverbal and [38:22] non-responsive and had no apparent [38:24] recognition of her surroundings or [38:25] families for years. [38:27] And then one day before her death, she [38:29] suddenly sat up in hospital, looked [38:30] around, and recognized her daughter by [38:31] name, spoke clearly, reminisced about [38:34] the past, thanked her family for caring [38:36] for her. Her speech was coherent, her [38:39] memory was intact, [38:40] and her personality recognizable as [38:43] though she had never been ill. She fell [38:45] asleep that evening and died peacefully [38:46] during the night. [38:49] And what do you think's happening there? [38:51] What do you think's happening there? [38:52] It's possibly, you know, partially [38:54] explained by a a surge in [38:56] neurochemicals, but it's not explained [38:58] by how can those neurochemicals act if [39:01] the physical neurons and synapses are [39:03] damaged? So, there is no explanation. [39:05] The only explanation [39:08] is that the mind is not emergent from [39:10] material matter. It's not [39:12] The The mind, the thoughts, the [39:14] emotions, the psyche cannot be solely [39:19] emerging from physical matter. That's [39:21] the only explanation from what we [39:23] understand so far. [39:25] And so, what is it that you now believe? [39:27] You believe that our souls and our [39:28] bodies are two separate things. And [39:30] where does our soul live if it's not [39:33] living inside of me? [39:35] So, like where is Robin? Mhm. [39:37] So, I believe that, you know, whether [39:39] whether you want to call it the [39:40] universe, [39:42] consciousness, [39:43] um collective consciousness, Godhead, [39:47] cosmic soup, I don't The word for it [39:49] isn't important. There's There's [39:51] somewhere [39:52] that that energy goes and it still [39:54] exists in some form. And if you believe [39:57] in reincarnation, then you may believe [39:59] that it then enters another body as a [40:01] vessel and, you know, has a different [40:03] life. Um [40:05] But [40:07] it doesn't go away. [40:09] How do you know? [40:13] I'm going to say something that you're I [40:14] know you're not going to like, but [40:16] I know because I feel it personally. I [40:19] feel it from I feel it like with the [40:20] person I've been closest to in my entire [40:22] life. [40:24] Who I know would never leave me if they [40:25] didn't absolutely have to. [40:28] But I can back that up. [40:31] To the extent of I can I can say you [40:33] can't prove that this isn't true. [40:35] I can back that up with everything that [40:36] I put in the book. And I'm not the only [40:38] one. Dr. David Eagleman at Stanford [40:41] says, you know, this idea of the brain [40:43] being like a radio [40:45] and receiving signals from outside. We [40:47] can't prove it, but we categorically [40:49] cannot say it's not true. [40:51] Professor Donald Hoffman suggests that [40:54] space-time is not the basis of how the [40:56] universe works. Suggests that [40:57] consciousness is the basis of how the [40:58] universe works. We can't prove that's [41:00] not true. And I find that really [41:02] exciting. I mean, as a scientist [41:05] you're supposed to challenge the status [41:07] quo. You're supposed to be curious. You [41:09] can't as a scientist believe that [41:10] everything we know now is all there is. [41:13] There's no point to being a scientist if [41:14] that's what you believe. [41:16] I asked you this question about the gym [41:17] earlier on about is it kind of like [41:18] training in the gym? Are there things [41:20] you think people could do to heighten [41:22] their ability [41:23] to speak to [41:25] loved ones that might have passed or to [41:27] heighten their ability to tap into [41:28] signs? [41:29] So, I go through this in the book and [41:31] and I chose the order quite carefully. [41:33] So, [41:34] I talk about neuroaesthetics, which is [41:37] you know, noticing beauty basically, if [41:39] not like [41:40] actually engaging in the arts. There's a [41:42] lot of evidence for engaging in the arts [41:44] in terms of like um increasing your [41:46] novelty salience, which is noticing new [41:48] things, which is part of the journey of [41:49] opening up that filter. Mhm. Um [41:53] and then there's a whole chapter on [41:54] nature because I think a lot of signs [41:56] come from nature, like [41:58] butterflies, robins, um [42:01] sort of, you know, spiral formations, [42:04] cloud formations. So, noticing nature [42:07] more can help you, you know, also to [42:08] receive these signs. And then community [42:11] is a huge part of it because, you know, [42:13] if I had this conversation with you and [42:15] you totally shut me down and said, "It's [42:17] not provable. This is ridiculous. I'm [42:18] not airing this episode." That would [42:20] have a very different like effect on me [42:23] to you even being open to like asking me [42:25] challenging questions that I welcome, [42:27] but also [42:29] engaging in this conversation and and [42:31] sort of, you know, maybe [42:32] feels a little bit like maybe [42:33] questioning, you know, some things that [42:35] you might do differently. Um [42:37] So, those are three very important parts [42:39] of like sort of part two of the book. [42:42] Part one is more about what are signs, [42:44] what are you missing, you know, have you [42:46] been receiving signs already? One of the [42:48] things that I when I was going through [42:49] my sort of um transition from like being [42:51] religious to being agnostic, I'd say, [42:53] cuz I wouldn't call myself an atheist, [42:55] is [42:56] I was watching all these um [42:58] atheist minds debate and talk and stuff. [43:00] And one of the things one of them said [43:01] is that if coincidence didn't happen in [43:03] our lives, then that would be a miracle. [43:05] Like statistically, mathematically, if [43:07] it's sometimes you don't think of Dave [43:09] and then the phone [43:11] that would actually be more [43:12] mathematically improbable [43:14] than it happening sometimes. Mhm. If you [43:16] think about, you know, the if if you had [43:18] this on a like a distribution curve or [43:19] something, [43:20] it is likely [43:22] mathematically that really unlikely [43:24] things will happen sometimes. [43:27] >> Okay. Right? So, I I've always had that [43:29] in my head as a way to sort of [43:30] rationalize coincidence. So, when [43:32] coincidence happens, I think, well, [43:33] probabilistically, [43:35] really unlikely things have to happen [43:37] and if they never happen, [43:39] then that's a miracle. Okay. Does that [43:41] make sense? [43:41] >> Yeah, it makes sense. [43:42] >> Like mathematically, you'd say like [43:45] likely things happen often, [43:47] unlikely things happen less often, [43:48] >> Yeah. extremely unlikely things happen [43:51] way less often. [43:52] >> Yeah. That's like the nature of like [43:54] maths, right? So, when extremely [43:56] unlikely things happen, I say, [43:58] "Actually, that makes sense because [44:00] probabilistically those things happen [44:01] infrequently. They're not happening [44:02] every single day." Like right now, I'm [44:04] thinking of I can name 10 people. I [44:06] guarantee when I go to my phone, none of [44:07] those 10 people have text me. [44:09] But if I do that every day, one day I'm [44:11] going to say, "Hey Steve, checking in." [44:13] Which makes sense because of the the [44:14] laws of probability. [44:15] >> want you to do that. I want you to just [44:17] like [44:18] be open to naturally thinking of someone [44:20] and seeing if that does happen or, you [44:22] know, kind of or asking for a sign and [44:24] seeing if it comes into your life. [44:27] That that's [44:29] That's all I'm asking. Like what, you [44:30] know, [44:32] just try it. It's not going to hurt you. [44:34] And I'm not just saying that to you. I'm [44:35] saying it to everyone. [44:38] And how do you think that would benefit [44:39] me? [44:41] I think it makes you believe in [44:42] something bigger than yourself. [44:44] Yeah. Um [44:45] >> And why is that so important? [44:47] Because I think a life where all you're [44:49] trying to do is get through and meet [44:51] your needs is [44:54] life can be better than that. Um [44:57] I think a life where you feel more [44:58] connected to yourself, to others, to [45:01] something greater gives you purpose. [45:04] Um [45:05] There's a lot of research that shows [45:06] that having a purpose that transcends [45:08] just yourself is actually really healthy [45:10] and important. And what is that for you [45:12] now, that transcendent layer in your [45:14] life? How do you define it? Is it a [45:16] religion? Is it something else? It's [45:18] definitely not religion. Um [45:21] I guess it's spirituality and, you know, [45:24] a form which will mean different things [45:25] to different people. [45:27] It's definitely about caring for [45:29] humanity. Is it a god? [45:31] A creator? [45:33] For me, no. [45:34] Um but 85% of people globally believe in [45:38] religion and a god, so it's important. [45:41] Um [45:43] I think for me it's [45:45] about [45:46] giving like a voice of relevance and [45:48] helping people to feel seen and heard [45:50] cuz I think that's very lacking. And, [45:53] you know, I'm in the enormously [45:55] privileged position that you have given [45:57] me of being able to do that, and I want [45:59] to use that in a really like positive [46:00] way. [46:01] How does this overlap with or sit [46:04] alongside what people call intuition? [46:08] Cuz you talk about that as well in the [46:09] book. Yeah. Um [46:11] I know there's so much like there's [46:12] still like so much else I want to say. [46:14] Just keep going. [46:15] >> So intuition is I mean intuition is what [46:17] it is. It's accessing inner wisdom, [46:19] right? But I've I've included it as a [46:22] really important part of the book [46:23] because I believe that it's a way to [46:25] receive and interpret your signs. [46:28] But um [46:30] I just want to go back to something I [46:31] said earlier which is about how [46:34] trauma can be stored in your body and [46:36] you know to some extent [46:38] it can't be retrieved through talking [46:40] therapy cuz there aren't words for it [46:42] because it's actually embedded into the [46:43] tissues of your body. [46:45] There's a really exciting new hypothesis [46:48] for how that might work called the [46:49] serotonin hypothesis. [46:52] So previously [46:53] I think it would make sense that if you [46:56] know for example when when Robin was in [46:57] hospital [46:59] I would like [47:01] sit in a very hunched over position and [47:03] my fists would be clenched cuz I felt [47:04] like I was fighting for his life all the [47:06] time and if I relaxed for a millisecond [47:08] he could die. [47:09] Um [47:10] so it makes sense to me that that [47:13] those postural issues would show up for [47:15] me later and you know in terms of like [47:17] aches and pains and you know perhaps [47:19] sort of well not perhaps my as my [47:22] Pilates and yoga teachers keep telling [47:24] me like issues with you know certain [47:25] parts of my spine and stuff. [47:27] But um the serotonin hypothesis is very [47:30] exciting as a neuroscientist because [47:33] a lot of people have heard of Bessel van [47:35] der Kolk's work and the book The Body [47:36] Keeps the Score. [47:38] And it makes sense kind of intuitively [47:40] that the body does keep the score and [47:42] and like I've said there's no amount of [47:44] trauma that you can't you can't [47:46] articulate verbally. So we believe we [47:49] understand there are imprints of that in [47:51] the body. Mhm. [47:53] But we have we've never really [47:54] understood how that works. Um and [47:58] we, you know, I've talked before, I [48:00] think with you, about intuition [48:02] through a process called Hebbian [48:03] learning, which is neurons that fire [48:05] together, wire together, gets pushed [48:07] deeper and deeper into neurons from the [48:10] outer cortex, the limbic system, the [48:11] brainstem, into gut neurons, and that's [48:13] why intuition is called gut instinct. [48:16] And we understand that through stress [48:19] postures, [48:20] you could have bracing patterns in your [48:22] muscles for like the trauma that you've [48:24] experienced. [48:26] Fascia is the connective tissue that [48:27] holds your entire body together, all [48:29] your organs, all your muscles. [48:31] And until fairly recently, [48:34] fascia was thought of as a vestigial [48:36] organ. It was cut away in surgery [48:37] without thinking of any that it would [48:39] have any effect on the rest of your [48:40] body. [48:42] Now, it's understood more to actually be [48:44] an an organ of its own and an important [48:46] one. [48:48] And the serotonin hypothesis [48:50] goes some way to explain how the level [48:54] of constriction of capillaries and the [48:56] amount of nutrients that's released to [48:59] skin, fascia, and muscle [49:01] is a mechanism for how trauma is held in [49:03] the body. [49:05] And with that in mind, [49:07] what do we do to get rid of that trauma [49:08] held in the body? [49:09] Physical activities. Um, so dancing, [49:13] singing, drumming, humming, chanting, [49:16] massage, yoga, craniosacral therapy. And [49:21] you'll notice that the ones I started [49:23] with are, you know, very related to [49:24] ancient wisdom. So, our ancestors knew [49:27] this. Um, for example, in ancient Greek [49:31] um [49:32] uh ancient Greek burials, they would [49:34] wail and beat their chests. So, they [49:36] were getting rid of grief by [49:39] like screaming, but also by beating [49:41] their muscles and letting like trauma [49:42] exit their body. [49:44] I'm very well aware that [49:47] there's probably a lot of people who [49:48] have sent this conversation to a friend [49:51] who is struggling right now. Mhm. And [49:53] that that friend who has lost a loved [49:54] one, potentially a husband, potentially [49:56] a wife, potentially, you know, God [49:58] forbid a child or a grandparent or [50:00] something, is listening to this because [50:03] they are in search of answers for their [50:05] own healing. Mhm. [50:07] You've been there. Mhm. You may still be [50:09] there in some [50:11] degree. [50:14] If you were to advise them on [50:18] their own healing journey, what advice [50:20] would you give them? [50:23] The first thing would be [50:26] to not repress or deny how they're [50:28] feeling and, you know, really [50:31] feel the emotions that that have to come [50:33] along with grief. Um [50:37] I've, you know, I had amazing talking [50:39] therapy, which definitely helped me a [50:40] lot. So, if people have access to that, [50:42] um professionally, then great. If not, [50:44] then, you know, if you've got close [50:46] friends that you can talk to, then [50:48] talking it out does help. [50:50] But, I've really learned that there's a [50:52] limit to how much that helps and that [50:54] some sort of [50:56] physical therapy, um is really helpful [50:58] as part of it. Those would be the [51:00] basics, I would say. [51:03] Time in nature has been so healing for [51:05] me. Um [51:06] some form of creative outlet, whether [51:08] it's making or beholding. So, you don't [51:10] have to be good at art if if you [51:13] draw, you know, a picture of how you're [51:15] feeling emotionally or a sketch of your [51:17] loved one, it doesn't have to be good. [51:19] You get benefits from doing that. It's [51:20] an out creative for your grief. That's [51:23] probably the second level and, you know, [51:24] the third level to me is if you've got [51:28] any inclination to receive signs, um or [51:31] just be open to [51:33] you know, white feather landing at your [51:34] doorstep. [51:36] Um [51:38] or a bird coming to visit you or [51:39] something that means something to you, [51:40] then [51:41] that can bring a lot of comfort and [51:43] guidance and joy. [51:45] And you also assert that things like [51:47] being in nature creativity [51:49] honing into our intuition increase the [51:51] probability of us receiving these signs. [51:53] Mhm. [51:54] Well, receiving and being able to [51:56] interpret in a way that's meaningful for [51:58] you. [51:59] Gut instinct. [52:01] Um in the book you talk about how [52:03] strengthening one's gut health can have [52:06] a an impact on gut in instinct. [52:08] >> Mhm. Explain that to me. [52:11] So, the the body is basically the [52:14] physical foundation for um you know, all [52:17] of your senses to be able to to flourish [52:20] to your higher mental faculties to be [52:22] able to flourish and ultimately for you [52:24] know, whatever spiritual experience you [52:27] have of life to to be able to be at its [52:30] fullest and best as well. So, taking [52:32] care of the physical foundations is [52:34] really important. And um you know, we [52:38] could talk about all the usual things [52:39] like sleep and diet and exercise, [52:42] mindfulness, stress management. But, I [52:45] want to really focus strongly on the the [52:47] gut brain access because a lot of new [52:50] research has come up since I wrote the [52:52] source. [52:54] So, it's actually you know, we know a [52:56] lot about this bi-directional [52:58] communication between the brain and the [52:59] gut. It's actually a three-way system [53:02] which is the brain, the gut itself, the [53:04] gut neurons, and the gut microbiome [53:07] which is trillions of bacteria and fungi [53:10] and you know, organisms that [53:12] um [53:13] are basically determining the health of [53:15] our entire system cuz they're connected [53:17] to our immune system, to our skin, [53:20] to our oral microbiome, and [53:23] and the brain. [53:25] So, [53:26] the way that you [53:28] the most direct access you have to your [53:30] brain is through your gut. The gut is [53:33] the most direct way that you can [53:34] influence your brain and you can do that [53:35] through exercise, obviously diet, um [53:40] supplementation, [53:42] even like um meditation and art and [53:45] music therapy have a beneficial effect [53:47] on your gut microbiome as well, which [53:49] has a knock-on effect on the neurons and [53:51] the the brain. And they communicate with [53:53] each other many ways, mostly through the [53:55] vagus nerve. [53:57] What's the vagus nerve? The vagus nerve [53:59] is a cranial nerve, so it comes from [54:00] your skull. It's Latin for wandering [54:03] because it's the longest nerve that goes [54:05] through your body. So, it goes There's [54:07] two, the right and the left, and they go [54:09] all the way from your cranium [54:10] What's my cranium? Your cranium is the [54:12] bone around your brain. Yeah. Um so, [54:14] inside that, um down your neck, they go [54:18] through your diaphragm and to your [54:19] intestine. I'll put a photo up on the [54:21] screen for everybody who wants to see [54:22] where their vagus nerve is. Also other [54:24] nerves, so the nerves that innervate the [54:26] gut organs, um they're called afferent [54:29] intestinal nerves. They're also involved [54:31] in this communication. Then there's [54:33] hormones, [54:35] and there's cytokine um messages, which [54:38] are chemical messages that aren't [54:39] hormonal. Your immune system actually [54:41] also produces neurotransmitters, and [54:43] there are immune cells in your brain as [54:45] well. So, those are all the ways that we [54:48] know currently that the brain and the [54:49] gut communicate with each other. [54:51] And so, what does this mean in terms of [54:53] my gut health and ways to influence my [54:57] my brain? Does it mean that I I need to [54:58] be really big on my prebiotics and my [55:01] probiotics to make sure my my gut's [55:02] intact? And if I do that, then my [55:04] intuition will be sharper. Mhm. So, [55:07] that's true, but I always like people to [55:09] understand what's behind that, not just [55:11] mindlessly take prebiotics and [55:13] probiotics. So, what we're trying to do [55:15] is reduce inflammation throughout the [55:18] system. [55:19] And so, basically, because [55:24] the brain is a small organ in in our [55:26] entire system, but it uses up at least [55:28] 20% of our energy, so it's very [55:30] vulnerable [55:32] to um [55:35] what what we call oxidative stress or [55:37] free radicals. So, every time like [55:39] there's any turnover of cells in our [55:41] brain or our body, basically as we live, [55:44] the wear and tear of daily life, we [55:46] release free radicals, which are [55:48] molecules that can damage cells, [55:50] particularly nerve cells. And because [55:53] the brain is has such high turnover of [55:55] energy, it's particularly vulnerable to [55:58] free radical attack. So, reducing [56:01] inflammation and putting things that are [56:04] neuro protective around it, like certain [56:07] vitamins and minerals, is really [56:09] important. And the hippocampus part of [56:11] the brain, which um it has high cell [56:14] turnover cuz it's to do with memory, [56:16] laying down memories, and obviously well [56:18] into adulthood we're still doing that, [56:20] that's also very vulnerable to free [56:21] radical damage. And that's why we can [56:24] get memory and cognitive impairments and [56:26] dementias as we get older. [56:28] So, the the modern Western diet causes [56:31] something called dysbiosis, which is [56:32] that your gut isn't in a good state, and [56:35] that creates a cascade of inflammation, [56:38] and releases molecules, some of which [56:41] can cross the blood-brain barrier, and [56:43] therefore cause inflammation in the [56:44] brain. So, we want to minimize that as [56:46] much as possible. [56:49] And put in as many protective and [56:50] beneficial factors as possible. [56:53] If we're doing that, the system's in [56:55] what we call homeostasis, which is good [56:57] balance. It's kind of starting to take [56:59] care of itself. It's got all the [57:00] nutrients that it needs. It's hydrated. [57:02] It's oxygenated. [57:04] That's when you've got extra resources [57:07] to do the higher mental functions. [57:10] And up until today, pretty much, I've [57:14] described those as being able to solve [57:17] complex problems, being able to think [57:18] flexibly, creatively, override your [57:21] biases. [57:23] But now I'm proposing that there's more [57:24] than that that we can do. There's [57:27] accessing levels of intuition that we [57:30] didn't know we had. Very much through [57:33] through the same mechanism of how I [57:35] described trauma being stored in the [57:36] body, [57:38] hidden wisdom is also stored in the [57:40] body. It's not just in your brain. [57:42] And therefore, the same therapies like [57:46] beholding and making art, [57:49] humming, drumming, storytelling, [57:51] dancing, yoga, [57:53] just movement can help us to access that [57:56] intuition that isn't just in our brain [57:59] and our mind and take us to a next level [58:03] of intuition that's not just cerebral. [58:05] It's It's physical. [58:09] I've just invested millions into this [58:11] and become a co-owner of the company. [58:13] It's a company called KetoneIQ [58:15] and the story is quite interesting. I [58:17] start talking about ketosis on this [58:18] podcast and the fact that I'm very low [58:20] carb, very very low sugar and my body [58:22] produces ketones which have made me [58:24] incredibly focused, have improved my [58:26] endurance, have improved my mood and [58:28] have made me more capable at doing what [58:29] I do here. And because I was talking [58:31] about it on the podcast, a couple of [58:33] weeks later, these showed up on my desk [58:35] in my HQ in London, these little shots. [58:37] And oh my god, the impact this had on my [58:41] ability to articulate myself, on my [58:44] focus, on my workouts, on my mood, on [58:47] stopping me crashing throughout the day [58:49] was so profound that I reached out to [58:51] the founders of the company and now I'm [58:53] a co-owner of this business. I highly, [58:55] highly recommend you look into this. I [58:57] highly recommend you look at the science [58:58] behind the product. If you want to try [59:00] it for yourself, visit ketone.com/steven [59:03] for 30% off your subscription order and [59:05] you'll also get a free gift with your [59:07] second shipment. That's [59:08] ketone.com/steven. [59:11] And I'm so honored that once again a [59:13] company I own can sponsor my podcast. [59:16] Use the word dark retreats. I've never [59:18] heard that phrase before. [59:20] So, dark retreats come from um a Tibetan [59:23] religion or philosophy, but it's um it's [59:27] seen throughout the ancient [59:28] civilizations. So, the ancient Greeks [59:30] and Romans used to bury people actually [59:33] for days, and then they would come out [59:35] and be like the seers and the mystics of [59:37] that um community. [59:39] But, there's most research um available [59:42] in dark retreats cuz it's still [59:43] happening today. What is a dark retreat? [59:46] A dark retreat is um have you heard of [59:47] silent retreats, silent meditation? [59:49] >> Yeah. [59:49] >> Yeah. Yeah, my girlfriend went on one. [59:51] Yeah, so that's the kind of thing she [59:52] would do. So, basically, you can go away [59:54] for a few days to a few weeks, and [59:55] you're just in silence, and you're [59:56] meditating and doing breathwork most of [59:58] the time. [59:59] In a dark retreat, you are in [60:02] like pitch black for I mean, you can go [60:06] and do it for a few hours or a weekend, [60:08] but it's meant to be in sevens. So, 7 to [60:10] 49 days. The monks do 49 days. If as a [60:14] you know, a person who's interested [60:15] spiritually, you wanted to do it quite [60:17] seriously, you would go for 7 days. [60:20] And you would be in a room or a cave [60:23] that's got double walls, so it's [60:25] completely dark. [60:27] And um [60:30] the reason for doing this is that not [60:31] all of us can have a near-death [60:33] experience, right? So, this is a way of [60:36] emulate It's the closest way of [60:37] emulating that for anyone like you or I [60:39] to get access to the benefits of a [60:42] near-death experience. [60:44] Um which I've outlined them all in the [60:46] book. So, in a dark retreat, at first, [60:49] you sleep a lot because it's dark, [60:50] you're releasing a lot lot of melatonin [60:52] from your pineal gland. So, you fall [60:55] asleep in darkness, you awake in [60:58] darkness, and basically, that kind of [61:00] makes you feel more sleepy, so you sleep [61:02] a lot. [61:03] After a couple of days, [61:05] you start to see [61:10] like [61:11] pulsations of light. It might be like [61:13] little shooting stars or kind of just [61:15] like little sparks here and there. [61:18] And then eventually, it feels like the [61:20] walls [61:22] are dimly alight. [61:25] So, in complete darkness, you start to [61:28] see light. [61:30] Obviously, there's an element of like [61:32] hallucinating at this point. And so, [61:35] after 3 4 5 days, you will actually [61:39] start to see animals, real or sort of [61:42] fantastical. [61:44] And eventually, people see like deities [61:47] or beings like people do in near-death [61:49] experiences. [61:52] Um and when people come out of these [61:53] retreats, they experience many of the [61:56] same benefits like, you know, a real [61:59] sort of [62:01] like joy for life, less fear of death, [62:04] more compassion for other people, less [62:06] fear of failing, so, you know, taking [62:09] more healthy risks. So, it it's a way [62:12] it's basically of emulating a near-death [62:14] experience. And it therefore convinces [62:16] you that there's more than you can see [62:18] in your day-to-day life and [62:21] therefore, that expands your mind in a [62:22] way that's beneficial. Yeah, it's [62:24] another [62:25] example of an altered state of [62:26] consciousness. You can also get altered [62:29] states of consciousness through [62:30] conscious connected or holotropic breath [62:32] work and through the use of psychedelic [62:36] um [62:37] plants as well. How do we know that it's [62:39] it's not just a [62:40] changing of our neurological state or [62:43] the the chemicals in our brain that are [62:44] causing us to interpret things [62:47] differently with our senses because, you [62:49] know, we've all [62:51] I said we all many of us have [62:52] experienced having some kind of [62:53] stimulant or psychedelic or some [62:55] compound in a rave or a festival that's [62:58] made us see the world differently for a [63:00] moment. And science would say that's [63:02] just the neurochemicals in our brain [63:05] doing different things which are [63:06] changing our perception. They wouldn't [63:07] say necessarily that it's a different [63:09] realm or a different dimension. [63:12] Yeah, and I I think you're right. I [63:14] think it is that. So, as a [63:15] neuropharmacologist, I, you know, [63:18] understand as much as the research says [63:20] about the It's mostly, like I said, in [63:23] in the body in the brain with [63:24] psychedelics, it's mostly 5-HT or [63:26] serotonin 2A receptors. And there's a [63:29] level of hyperconnectivity within the [63:31] brain, particularly, as I said, in the [63:34] visual cortex here, which allows people [63:37] to see things that they don't normally [63:38] see. Um and I think the way to [63:42] apply that in your life is [63:46] that it's a glimpse into what's [63:48] possible. [63:49] Mhm. Um once you've experienced that, it [63:52] could either be that you find other [63:54] natural ways of experiencing that. So, [63:56] there's there's a paper I can forward to [63:58] you that shows that certain forms of [64:00] conscious connected breathwork produce [64:02] the same effect as a moderate dose of [64:04] psilocybin. Which is magic mushrooms. [64:06] >> Yes. And this um research came out after [64:10] psilocybin was banned, and practitioners [64:13] thought, "Well, what are other ways that [64:14] we can help people to achieve these [64:15] altered states of consciousness?" Um [64:19] and personally, I believe that, you [64:22] know, [64:23] having like com- a completely like [64:25] awe-inspiring experience in nature, or [64:27] for me, like the ballet, particularly [64:30] when I've been so lucky sometimes to sit [64:31] in the wings, and you just completely [64:33] feel like you're part of it. I mean, [64:35] I've literally had [64:37] a spiritual experience sitting in the [64:38] wings watching, actually, it was one of [64:40] my friends, the principal dancer, [64:41] dancing. [64:43] Just so overwhelming. It's completely an [64:45] altered state of consciousness. Um [64:48] So, there are other There are other ways [64:49] of accessing that. Um [64:52] but I think it depends like why you want [64:53] to and what it means to you. [64:56] But at minimum, these sorts of things [64:58] that I'm talking about are ways of [65:00] understanding that [65:01] there's more to life than what we know. [65:04] And how does that meaningfully change [65:09] like the concept of what happiness is [65:11] and contentment is, and like living a [65:13] good life is. [65:15] So, what I think is really interesting [65:16] is that we don't actually have to [65:19] experience certain things ourselves. So, [65:22] there's a lot of research that shows [65:23] that students from various different [65:26] areas of expertise who simply learn [65:29] about near-death experiences actually [65:31] get some of the same benefits, and that [65:33] these can last for over a year later. [65:37] So, understanding that when someone sees [65:40] that there's something greater than us, [65:41] when someone sees the interconnectedness [65:44] of of everything, when someone [65:46] understands how [65:48] small some of their problems are in the [65:50] greater, you know, picture of things, [65:52] helps people to be more compassionate, [65:55] more grateful, kinder to others, um less [65:59] materialistic. [66:01] Is is really interesting, and I think [66:03] anything that we can do to help us, [66:06] you know, free us from some of those [66:08] chains that I think hold us down in the [66:10] material world, particularly in the [66:12] Western world, [66:13] is [66:14] it's healthy for us physically, [66:17] mentally, emotionally, [66:19] but it also brings in this element of [66:21] spirituality that I think is just so [66:23] lacking in the world at the moment, and [66:25] and could be so helpful, because if we [66:27] look back [66:29] at the way that our ancestors used their [66:31] senses and their intuition to interpret [66:33] the land, like [66:34] a cloud formation could mean that rain's [66:36] coming, but it could also mean that your [66:38] ancestors were talking to you. [66:40] Just seems like such a beautiful way to [66:41] live, and [66:43] when we lived in, you know, in [66:45] Paleolithic times, we didn't have spare [66:47] resources for having fun, [66:49] but we adorned ourselves, we danced, we [66:51] told stories, we made, you know, cave [66:53] art. [66:55] So, I think that just really [66:57] reminds us that those things that are [67:00] often seen as luxuries or frivolous, [67:03] they're not at all, they're [67:04] fundamentally important. Believing in in [67:07] these things itself is good for us. Is [67:10] that what you believe? You believe that [67:11] believing in something transcendent, [67:13] whether it's spiritual or religious, is [67:15] actually just good for us. So, that's [67:17] reason enough to believe it. It's reason [67:19] enough to believe it, but I think it [67:20] will naturally change what you do once [67:23] you believe it. You're not going to live [67:24] in the same way if you if you you know, [67:26] believe some fundamentally different [67:28] things. [67:29] >> And the ways in which it changes what [67:30] you believe are beneficial to you. So, [67:33] are you saying that that is reason [67:35] enough to believe it? Like to want to [67:36] believe it? I think it's reason enough [67:38] to try it. Yeah. [67:40] I mean, sometimes it causes [67:42] people through human history to do awful [67:43] things, right? To kill themselves, to [67:47] to strap bombs to themselves and do [67:49] horrific things because they believe in [67:52] something transcendent. [67:55] It it can also lead to like [67:58] destructive behavior. I mean, I don't [68:00] think there's any evidence from [68:01] near-death experiences that that's the [68:03] case. I think [68:05] I know what that what you're referring [68:07] to is something that's, you know, more [68:09] fundamentally like religious and [68:14] Cuz I was watching that I've been [68:15] watching Jack told me to watch this uh [68:17] capture bin Laden documentary, so I was [68:18] watching it last night and [68:20] these people flew themselves into [68:21] buildings [68:22] because they believe in [68:25] you know, they were obviously [68:26] radicalized in various ways, but they [68:29] they believed in going to a [68:32] afterlife that would be better than this [68:34] one. And they were sacrificing [68:35] themselves [68:37] for the greater good. So, it's just it's [68:38] I guess it's a side point that just but [68:40] the belief in transcendence itself in [68:42] some regard isn't necessarily always [68:43] going to guarantee our behaviors on on [68:46] this planet are productive. Yeah, and I [68:48] was going to say like perhaps it's [68:49] something more dogmatic, but I think [68:51] you're absolutely right to raise that [68:52] point. And I'm not trying to sit here [68:54] and say [68:55] I found like the perfect solution and [68:57] everyone should do this and it's all [68:58] good. Like that's just I know that's not [69:00] true. I'm not trying to say that at all. [69:02] I think we should absolutely be [69:03] questioning everything that that I'm [69:06] saying and I will keep questioning the [69:08] way that I'm living my life and keep [69:10] trying to learn and grow. I guess the [69:12] point is just the belief in something [69:13] transcendent. Does that make our lives [69:15] necessarily better? I guess the answer [69:17] is I can't it can. Yeah. [69:19] I'm really obsessed at the moment [69:20] actually with this idea of purpose and [69:21] meaning because obviously we're living [69:22] in a society that's more and more [69:24] individualistic and [69:25] >> Yeah. [69:26] independence is kind of vogue and [69:29] um because of a variety of things that [69:31] have happened over the last 50 60 70 [69:33] years, we have more independence. Women [69:35] in particular have a lot more [69:35] independence which I think everyone is [69:37] very most people are very um supportive [69:40] of. [69:40] >> Mhm. [69:41] We have more choice than ever before and [69:43] with choice comes independence. So I can [69:44] choose now when I have a family and [69:46] maybe I couldn't choose before. Mhm. Um [69:50] and with choice and with freedom [69:52] I think some of our [69:54] more short-term hedonistic desires and [69:57] temptations take hold and we end up [69:59] sacrificing the tribe and shared [70:01] responsibility and dependence and a lot [70:04] of our meaning came from like those [70:05] things. Mhm. So I I feel to some degree [70:08] that when we think about how we ladder [70:10] up from like me to like my family to my [70:13] city to my nation and then maybe to my [70:15] God Mhm. those layers have fallen away [70:17] now for many of us it's just me [70:19] >> Mhm. [70:20] and that's causing a crisis of meaning [70:23] and purpose in in life because we're [70:24] kind of unanchored. Yeah. [70:26] What's your perspective on this and um [70:30] do you think it's true that we're like [70:31] when more unanchored than we've ever [70:33] been and how do you think we get back to [70:35] that if we can relate to feeling a [70:36] little bit lost and unanchored and [70:39] the sort of prevalence in my view of [70:40] people having more and more midlife [70:42] crises and turning to religion or [70:44] spirituality or something? [70:46] >> Yeah, well I I actually called this in [70:48] March 2020 and it's on record cuz I was [70:51] on a podcast and I I said I [70:53] foresee a huge mental health crisis but [70:57] we could choose for it to be a spiritual [70:59] revolution. [71:01] And so then obviously the you know, the [71:03] rest of the pandemic happened and then [71:05] there was sort of a return to society [71:07] which I think people found really hard [71:08] mentally as well. [71:10] And at the same time there was the cost [71:14] of living crisis, the wealth gap, a new [71:16] war, the crime rates, you know, [71:19] certainly in London like just for my [71:20] life experience they had you know, [71:22] significantly grown. [71:24] Um [71:25] for reasons that we're all contributors [71:27] to but you know, it changes how safe you [71:29] feel in society. [71:31] And [71:33] I'm a big fan of technology obviously [71:34] I'm a scientist but [71:36] it is ironic that we seem to be more [71:39] disconnected than ever when [71:41] in in one way we're we're more connected [71:43] than we've ever been before. Mhm. And [71:47] I you know, I I've said this before but [71:48] I'll say it again. I think [71:50] the way out of that is is a return to [71:52] ancient wisdom to true connection which [71:55] I believe can coexist with [71:58] being technologically connected and [71:59] advanced. Um [72:03] but yeah, I just I just think we've lost [72:05] what it means to be human which means [72:07] you know, really being in touch with [72:08] yourself and being part of a community [72:10] and and caring about [72:13] something more than just your own life [72:15] and and your immediate you know, inner [72:17] circle. [72:19] And what is true connection in your [72:20] definition of the word? [72:22] Cuz I guess there's false connection if [72:23] there's true connection. Mhm. So what's [72:25] true connection? Um And what is false [72:27] connection? Well, I'll just go over you [72:28] know, what I've said before cuz it's [72:29] about connection to yourself, to others [72:31] and you know, sort of the world or [72:32] something greater. And I think you know, [72:35] it's about something that's [72:37] that's deep and not transactional. It's [72:39] about something that's meaningful. It's [72:41] about something that's altruistic. [72:45] I I think it's about contributing. [72:48] That day when you walked past the [72:49] hospital, [72:50] what did you experience? [72:54] Um it triggers me seeing that building. [72:57] And I just [72:59] I you know, I had obviously looked on [73:01] Google Maps, but not really realized I [73:03] would walk past it. And if I had [73:05] realized, I would have walked a [73:06] different way. And I remember just [73:08] thinking [73:10] it's unfair that I had to see this [73:11] building. It was unnecessary [73:13] unnecessarily a trigger for me. [73:15] And [73:16] and obviously obviously saying to Robin, [73:18] you need to send me a sign. But there's [73:19] a reason for that, which is you know, I [73:21] mean I went to that hospital every day [73:22] for [73:23] a month for his first day and I think [73:25] about 3 weeks for the second one. [73:27] Um [73:29] but [73:30] he had two admissions to ICU. And [73:34] one of them I'd been, you know, to visit [73:36] him for the day. [73:39] He'd been bedridden for quite a few [73:41] weeks by then. And I came home. [73:45] I was just sort of de-escalating and you [73:47] know, sitting on the sofa and getting [73:48] ready for the evening. And then suddenly [73:50] I saw the emergency line was calling. [73:52] And [73:54] I could hear them saying [73:56] his heart rate went up to 200. Like [73:59] ICU are here now. You know, we did a [74:01] crash call. And they're just like [74:03] talking talking talking. And I suddenly [74:04] just said [74:05] should I come back to the hospital? [74:08] And she said yes. In a tone of voice [74:11] that was like [74:13] you need to get here as quickly as [74:14] possible. Got in the Uber. It's a [74:16] 30-minute Uber ride from my house. [74:18] And [74:21] messaged my best friend and said that [74:23] I've got to rush back to the hospital. [74:25] He was on the 15th floor. So, I was like [74:27] waiting for the lift. [74:29] Got up there. [74:30] Saw the matron coming to unlock the [74:32] door. And I just said, "Is he in his [74:33] room?" And she said, "Yes, he's in his [74:34] room." But she her face looked like [74:37] not good. [74:38] Ran round and saw all the machinery from [74:42] ICU in the corridor with like 100 wires [74:44] coming out of the room. [74:47] Ran into the room and just saw Robin sat [74:50] up in bed. [74:51] Huge smile when he saw me. [74:54] And he just said to me, [74:56] "When I thought this was the end, I just [74:58] kept thinking, please let me see her [75:00] face one more time." [75:03] And [75:06] you know, after that he did get a bit [75:07] better, but then [75:10] um [75:11] Well, in that first admission eventually [75:14] I said to him, you know, you've got to [75:15] start sitting up. The doctor said you've [75:17] got to sit out of bed. [75:18] And [75:20] the therapist had come round. He said, [75:22] "I don't want therapy. I've got you." [75:23] So, like I took the therapy. [75:25] The reflexology lady came round. He [75:27] pretended he was asleep. And eventually [75:28] I said, "Darling, you've got to play the [75:30] game. I cannot do this by myself. [75:33] And you And you can't just keep lying in [75:34] bed. You've got to sit up." [75:36] So, he got helped into the chair. [75:38] And that day when I went to say goodbye [75:40] to him [75:41] I hugged him like face-to-face. And I [75:43] had didn't quite realize that the whole [75:45] time I'd been kissing him from the side [75:46] of the bed cuz he'd been in bed. [75:49] And when we hugged face-to-face, I just [75:50] burst into tears. And I had never shown [75:52] him anything but a smiling face the [75:54] whole time. [75:56] And I left. And I just got this barrage [75:58] of text messages saying, "I'm not [76:00] spending one more night away from you. [76:02] I'm wasting away in this hospital when I [76:04] could be with you. When you come in [76:06] tomorrow, we're going to tell the [76:07] doctors that I'm leaving." [76:10] So, I thought, okay. [76:12] Came in the next day. It's ward round. [76:14] And I was pretty much like part of the [76:16] ward round. Like the consultant would [76:17] say everything and then say, "Is that [76:19] okay, Tara?" kind of thing. [76:21] And he said, "I want to leave I'm [76:22] leaving today. I want to be at home with [76:24] my wife tonight." [76:26] And she was very clever. She looked at [76:28] me and said, "What do you think, Tara?" [76:30] cuz she knew I'd never put him in [76:31] danger. [76:33] But also, I'm standing in front of the [76:34] man [76:36] that I love. [76:38] And I'm either going to tell him that I [76:40] don't trust him, I don't trust his [76:42] decision-making. [76:44] The person who always always had my [76:47] back, or I'm going to have to show him [76:49] that I have his back just like he always [76:50] had mine. [76:52] And I said to her, [76:54] "I understand why [76:56] you wouldn't be in favor of this, but I [76:58] think I can manage it." [77:01] And within 2 days he was discharged from [77:02] hospital. [77:05] Um [77:07] yeah, off IVs. [77:09] Um but still on oxygen. [77:11] We still had to go in to have like the [77:13] bone marrow tests and get blood [77:16] transfusions and platelets and things. [77:19] But he slowly started to recover. He It [77:20] was a slow recovery. [77:22] So, normally within a week you would get [77:24] the second round of treatment. He wasn't [77:26] strong enough for that, but [77:28] um we got to the point where she [77:30] actually said that we could go to [77:31] Hampshire, and then he stopped using the [77:34] walking stick, he stopped using the [77:35] oxygen. [77:37] We came back to London for the second [77:38] round of treatment. She said, "I I could [77:40] not have imagined you would bring him [77:41] back in as good a state as he's in." [77:44] But the second round of treatment was [77:46] totally brutal, [77:49] and it didn't work. [77:50] Um so, he was in hospital again [77:53] for a few weeks, and then like I said, [77:55] on October 4th, I took him home. [77:58] Even then, [78:00] the female consultant said to me, [78:03] "The last time you took him to [78:04] Hampshire, he got so much better. If [78:05] anything changes, bring him back to [78:07] London." And [78:09] the male consultant [78:10] gave me two syringes of bone marrow [78:12] stimulating um drugs and said, "You [78:15] cannot use this without our permission, [78:17] but if anything changes, inject him with [78:20] this and bring him back to London." So, [78:22] I still had like a glimmer of hope, [78:25] which I shouldn't really have had. [78:27] Um [78:29] and like I said, he he lived for 3 and [78:31] 1/2 weeks instead of two. [78:34] Um [78:37] yeah, and like right towards the end cuz [78:39] he was in a hospital bed on an air [78:41] mattress. [78:42] He said like maybe you could like come [78:45] and lie on the bed with me. And when you [78:48] couldn't move, he couldn't raise a glass [78:50] of water to his lips or anything. [78:52] He somehow like moved his arms cuz I [78:53] always used to sleep like on his chest. [78:56] Um [78:58] and then after a few seconds he said I'm [78:59] just really claustrophobic and you know, [79:01] I'd like had to put the rails up to stay [79:03] in the bed cuz it was so small I was [79:05] going to fall out and I said it's okay, [79:06] darling. And I think that I think that [79:08] was his way of saying goodbye to me cuz [79:10] he died 2 days after that. [79:17] What's on your mind? [79:18] Um [79:22] just like very sad. [79:28] Um [79:31] I don't want him to get forgotten. [79:37] I've dedicated like my book to him. [79:43] But I I also know because [79:46] we've had this conversation that [79:49] there's something [79:52] there's something there's there's still [79:54] like [79:56] something that I have to do in this life [79:57] which was the reason that I had to stay. [80:03] So [80:05] yeah, I I think [80:07] there's a like a purpose to fulfill that [80:10] that Robin wants me to so that that's [80:12] what I'm going to do. [80:15] How do you think about falling in love [80:17] again? Cuz I [80:19] played out the horrific thought myself [80:20] in my own life of losing my partner and [80:22] and how difficult it would it appears to [80:25] be from this vantage point to [80:27] fall in love again and meet people and [80:29] to to think about those things again. [80:31] Like how would [80:32] How do you think about that? [80:35] Um [80:36] So, I [80:38] actually [80:40] experienced unconditional love, which I [80:42] didn't believe in. So, the first time [80:44] Robin said to me, "I love you [80:45] unconditionally." [80:47] Because I had some baggage from previous [80:49] relationship, I said, [80:51] "Don't say that because I don't think [80:52] that exists." [80:54] And he never said it again. [80:58] But every day for the rest of his life, [81:00] he showed me that it was true. So, at [81:02] some point, I just knew it was true. [81:04] I would say, you know, obviously people [81:07] say things like he would want you to be [81:08] happy. [81:10] And [81:11] you know, I was still wearing my wedding [81:12] rings for over 2 years. And you know, [81:15] even some of his friends said, "You [81:16] don't need to wear them anymore." But I [81:17] said, "I want to." And I wore them for [81:19] as you know, as long as I still needed [81:21] to. [81:22] I [81:27] I'm open to receiving love, but I'm not [81:29] going to go and look for it. Let's put [81:30] it that way. [81:33] Why? [81:36] Um [81:41] I don't know. I mean, it's not really my [81:43] style anyway. [81:45] But [81:46] I think I've been so lucky with what [81:48] I've had that I don't [81:50] I don't [81:53] I'd be okay if I didn't like have [81:55] something like that again. Obviously, [81:59] I'm too young to like not want to have [82:01] that again. But I'm I also feel quite [82:04] vulnerable. So, [82:06] I'll just like see how things go. [82:09] I've watched so many entrepreneurs treat [82:11] sales like a performance problem, when [82:13] it's often down to visibility. Because [82:15] when you can't see what's happening in [82:16] your pipeline, what stage each [82:18] conversation is at, what's stalled, [82:20] what's moving, you can't improve [82:22] anything. And you can't close the deal. [82:25] Our sponsor Pipedrive is the number one [82:27] CRM tool for small to medium businesses. [82:30] Not just a contact list, but an actual [82:32] system that shows your entire sales [82:34] process end-to-end. Everything that's [82:36] live, what's lagging, and the steps you [82:38] need to take next. All of your teams can [82:40] move smarter and faster. Teams using [82:43] Pipedrive are on average closing three [82:45] times more deals than those that aren't. [82:47] It's the first CRM made by sales people [82:50] for sales people that over 100,000 [82:53] companies around the world rely on, [82:55] including my team, who absolutely love [82:57] it. Give Pipedrive a try today by [82:59] visiting pipedrive.com/ceo. [83:03] And you can get up and running in a [83:04] couple of minutes with no payment [83:05] needed. And if you use this link, you'll [83:08] get a 30-day free trial. [83:13] One of the things that I thought a lot [83:15] about when I started The Diary of a CEO [83:16] was who would be the sponsors of this [83:18] show. I wanted my sponsors to be [83:20] companies that I believed in so much [83:22] that I invested my own money into those [83:24] companies. The reason I do that is [83:26] because if I'm willing to put my money [83:27] where my mouth is, I must love the [83:29] product. And this is one such product [83:31] that I've just invested many millions of [83:33] pounds into. I was in the late stages of [83:35] creating my own hydration electrolyte [83:38] product. I was looking for a certain [83:39] thing. I was looking for a certain [83:41] product that wasn't too sweet, that was [83:42] science-backed, and I told my friend [83:44] George Heaton about this. And he said to [83:47] me that he was working on one with a guy [83:48] called Ross Mackay. They put me in a [83:50] WhatsApp group. They showed me the [83:51] product, and I fell in love. They have [83:53] the sachets, they have the cans, and the [83:55] range of products focus on performance, [83:58] recovery, and sleep. Try it now by going [84:01] to usecadence.com. And to get you [84:02] started, don't tell anybody this, but [84:04] I'll give you a code, which is code [84:06] diary, which will give you 15% off and [84:08] an extra 15% off on subscriptions. [84:13] And if I told you I'd been through what [84:15] you've been through, [84:16] and I asked you the question, [84:18] should I go and look for love again? [84:21] What advice would you give to me? [84:23] If I'd lost my partner and [84:25] I was what, 4 years now? Mhm. Away from [84:27] that me. [84:28] >> Really? Yeah. What What advice would you [84:30] give me about love? [84:32] I think it's very personal. I think, you [84:33] know, if you [84:35] want to be in a relationship, that's [84:37] absolutely fine. [84:39] Um [84:40] if you're not sure, that's fine, too. I [84:41] think there's different levels of how [84:43] long it would take people. [84:45] I do know that when [84:48] you know, the majority of voices were [84:49] around around me were sort of saying [84:51] like, it's okay for you to do that [84:53] again, but one of my friends who's [84:55] engaged to someone who was a widower, [84:58] he said to me at the time, I'm telling [85:00] you right now, 2 years is not It's not [85:02] long enough. And that felt like a [85:03] relief. [85:05] Um [85:06] so obviously it's almost another 2 years [85:08] now. I, you know, I think I believe that [85:11] if love is meant for you meant for me, [85:13] then it will come to me. So, I'm not I'm [85:15] not [85:17] I'm I'm just calm about it. How are you [85:19] different? [85:21] Like, what are the very material or like [85:23] very obvious ways that you're a [85:24] different person on the other side of [85:25] this? [85:27] Um [85:29] What would your friends say if I said, [85:30] how is Tara different? [85:33] Well, I think they would say that I'm a [85:34] lot more like fragile and vulnerable. [85:37] Cuz that Cuz they're like very, very [85:39] protective of me, still. [85:41] Um [85:43] I know they would I know what they would [85:45] say cuz some of them have said it and I [85:46] didn't really like to hear this at [85:47] first, but they said you're going to be [85:49] able to help so many people. [85:52] You know, the first time someone said [85:53] that, I was like, I've been a doctor, [85:56] I've been a coach, I, you know, my whole [85:59] like personality is about helping [86:00] people. I didn't need my husband to [86:02] suffer horrifically and die so that I [86:03] can help people. But now, [86:06] I do actually feel that I can and I want [86:08] to. And what do you want to help them [86:10] with? And who do you want to help? [86:11] People that are grieving? [86:13] Not just people that are grieving. I [86:15] think [86:16] you know, people that are [86:18] struggling and suffering in different [86:19] ways and people really, really want to [86:22] feel seen and I think that's like an [86:23] important [86:26] place where I would love to [86:28] do something. I think I've got more and [86:30] more curious about [86:32] the idea that I might be wrong about [86:36] subjective reality and how I see things. [86:38] And so I wondered if if there's a [86:41] clearer definition of the subjective [86:43] reality that you see. Like do you do you [86:44] think we are the spirits that inhabit [86:46] our body and then like why? Is there is [86:48] there reason why [86:51] I've come into this body? [86:53] Is there some bigger karmic purpose as [86:55] to why I've I I live? [86:58] This ultimate question of like what is [86:59] the meaning of life? In the world view [87:01] that you have, like what is the point? [87:05] What is the point? Why did I need to [87:06] live? [87:08] I don't know if I can answer that. I'm [87:09] going to I'm just going to say like [87:10] what's coming to my mind. [87:11] >> Okay. Which is [87:14] So [87:16] like you and I [87:17] might never have met in our lives, [87:19] right? [87:19] >> Mhm. [87:21] And for some reason we did. [87:24] And [87:26] we had never met before I did the [87:27] podcast with you last time. [87:31] But people cannot stop talking about [87:33] like the level of chemistry as if we'd [87:34] known each other our whole lives and [87:36] I've always said I felt like I was [87:37] talking to my little brother. [87:40] And then that episode goes on to have [87:42] like the number of views that it does. [87:44] Mhm. I don't believe that that's random [87:46] or a coincidence. I think [87:48] and there's a reason for that and for me [87:52] in a way you were the worst person for [87:53] me to come and do and tell this story to [87:55] you for the first time because you were [87:57] the most skeptical person of all the [87:58] podcast hosts that I can think of that [88:00] I'm going to go on. Mhm. So [88:04] there's obviously some importance to [88:05] that. I can't explain it. I'm I'm not I [88:07] didn't come here with all the answers. [88:08] I'm just [88:10] lucky enough to be someone credible [88:13] qualifications that's had a [88:16] you know, an experience that most people [88:17] don't talk about that [88:19] I can open up for people. That that's I [88:21] would say like [88:23] all that it is. But I want to add [88:25] something else that I'm feeling is [88:26] relevant as well, which is [88:28] because of my friendship group [88:31] and the kind of conversations that we [88:32] have I wasn't allowed by my publisher to [88:36] include personal stories from my [88:38] friends. I had to source stories from [88:40] people I had either never met or only [88:42] met once or were friends of friends. [88:45] So every personal story that you read in [88:47] The Signs, which has the person's real [88:49] name [88:51] and it is written by them and gifted to [88:53] me for this book [88:55] are people that I don't know. [88:57] And [88:59] they're all saying the same thing. [89:01] They see, you know, light disturbances [89:03] when they think of their lost loved one [89:05] or they get unmistakable signs or robins [89:08] visit them. [89:09] Um [89:11] Yeah, I haven't made that stuff up. Like [89:13] there's something to it. I I don't know [89:15] exactly what it is. I I hope I find out [89:17] before I die, but maybe I'll only find [89:19] out after I die. I don't know. [89:21] And is there any meaning to [89:24] all this stuff? It's kind of going back [89:25] to the question I asked earlier because [89:26] you said you think we met for a reason. [89:28] Mhm. And one could hazard a number of [89:31] reasons as to why that was. Maybe it was [89:32] because you're going to go on to help so [89:33] many people and reach so many people [89:34] with an important message, whatever. But [89:36] I don't know, this is my curiosity [89:38] trying to reach a conclusion, which is [89:41] for what for why? [89:43] Like why are humans here? Why why [89:45] doesn't my dog Pablo have or does he [89:47] have the same capabilities of seeing [89:50] signs and communicating with [89:51] >> Oh, he's got more capabilities than you [89:53] in many respects. He I mean [89:55] >> about that in the book, right? You talk [89:57] about pets and animals. [89:59] Okay, let me talk about that a little [90:00] bit. So [90:01] dogs and cats can smell certain diseases [90:05] and um they can smell imminent death. [90:08] So, there's something called hyperosmia, [90:11] which is um, in humans, it's the ability [90:13] to smell more than the normal range. So, [90:16] there's a very famous nurse called Joy, [90:18] I think it's Milner, who smelt her [90:20] husband's Parkinson's disease years [90:22] before he was diagnosed. And her ability [90:25] to smell that disease has caused a new [90:28] swab test to be created that takes [90:30] chemicals from the skin of people to [90:31] predict if they're going to get [90:32] Parkinson's disease. [90:35] So, there are some outliers in humans [90:37] that have, you know, they're called [90:39] super smellers, for example. Like, we're [90:41] not all capable of that, but some people [90:42] are. [90:43] Blind people [90:46] rewire the visual cortex of the brain in [90:49] the occipital lobes here for [90:51] echolocation. [90:52] Humans aren't built for echolocation, [90:55] bats and dolphins are. [90:57] But, people who are blind can use up the [90:59] unused visual cortex [91:01] to um, [91:03] learn how to recognize [91:06] how close objects are to them by how [91:08] long it takes sound to bounce back from [91:10] surfaces. [91:12] So, basically, animals have senses that [91:14] we don't have. [91:16] Some very rare people can have some of [91:18] those senses that animals have that most [91:20] humans don't. We're also capable of [91:22] rewiring some of our [91:25] um, neurons for senses that replace ones [91:27] that we don't have. [91:29] And I'm just going to bring us full [91:31] circle, you know, kind of where we [91:32] started with [91:34] can you suspend your disbelief by [91:37] understanding that there are lots of [91:38] things that we can't prove at the [91:39] moment, but, you know, we sort of [91:42] science is science is [91:44] to on the quest to push boundaries, [91:46] which is that Russell Foster [91:48] suggested that not that the only cells [91:51] on our retinas are not just rods and [91:53] cones, which are for vision, but there [91:55] was a different type of cell that senses [91:58] the passing of time through the [92:00] light-dark cycle, and, you know, that's [92:03] how we create our circadian rhythms. He [92:05] was ridiculed by scientists who said [92:08] we've been studying the eye for 150 [92:10] years and you think there's a new type [92:12] of cell that we've missed out in all [92:13] that time and you found it. [92:15] And sure enough, now there are [92:18] identified cells called melanopsin cells [92:21] which blind um rodents [92:25] can still keep to the circadian rhythm [92:27] because they can sense the the changing [92:29] light and dark cycle, but if you put [92:32] opaque contact lenses on them, they [92:34] drift off the circadian rhythm. [92:37] So, [92:38] I I'm not going to be able to give you [92:40] an answer at the end of this podcast, [92:42] but [92:43] maybe that's the beauty of everything [92:45] that we're not at the end of knowing [92:46] everything that we need to know, but [92:48] there's a lot of really interesting big [92:50] question marks. [92:53] Do you think we'll ever [92:55] figure out these answers? Do you think [92:57] science will ever get there? Do you [92:59] think they'll come a day when we make [93:01] discoveries that prove [93:04] that many of the things you that you [93:05] write about in the signs are in fact [93:09] true? [93:10] Like scientifically justifiable, [93:12] repeatable. [93:15] Yeah, I think so, but I don't think [93:16] we'll be here at that point. I'm always [93:18] just fascinated because you know so much [93:20] about neuroscience and the connection of [93:22] not just neuroscience, but spirituality [93:25] and um [93:27] and then also human psychology in [93:29] general. The thing I'm always so [93:31] fascinated about with you is that you're [93:32] able to tell me things that I didn't [93:34] know. Like you said to me last time [93:35] about looking into someone's left eye [93:37] and the fact that sweat leaks through [93:39] the skin and that menstrual cycle sync [93:41] up. And these are all things that are [93:42] like really actionable that have helped [93:44] me to look at life differently, but also [93:46] now I don't think I've looked in [93:47] someone's right eye in the last 2 years. [93:49] Especially when they're like annoyed or [93:50] something, so. [93:51] Is there anything else like that that [93:53] you've become curious about or [93:55] discovered [93:56] or talked about since we last saw each [93:58] other [93:59] that might be pertinent to you now. [94:00] >> Um I think we've discussed it which is [94:01] like noticing beauty. That's been a real [94:03] game changer for me. That's like [94:05] gratitude to the next level. [94:07] And that's an active practice of going [94:09] through life looking for something [94:10] beautiful. Well, it was but then it [94:12] becomes a habit. Yeah, okay. Um and it's [94:14] producing oxytocin just like gratitude [94:16] practice does. So obviously it's kind of [94:18] self-rewarding. Mhm. So then you [94:20] naturally want to do it more and more. [94:22] But I notice I point it out to people [94:23] more as well now which is that I'm [94:25] obviously trying to like [94:27] create a bit of a like crowd effect. Um [94:29] not consciously but I just can't help [94:31] myself. Like if I see something really [94:32] pretty then [94:34] I'll say, "Oh, like you know, did you [94:35] see that?" Um Certain people do that [94:38] often and they do seem to be the [94:39] happiest people. My girlfriend does that [94:41] all the time. She she'll like like stop [94:43] the car because there's a flower that we [94:45] need to go spend 45 seconds looking at [94:47] across the other side of the road. [94:49] >> And to a lot of people it's just a [94:51] flower and we've kind of almost become [94:52] used to seeing flowers. [94:55] >> habituation. Yeah. So even if you walk [94:57] past like an amazing tree or an amazing [94:59] building every day, eventually you'll [95:01] you'll just not notice it cuz you're [95:03] habituated to it. So saliency is [95:06] you know, keeping yourself primed like [95:07] what I call the art of noticing. Mhm. [95:10] And where are you right now in terms of [95:12] your journey of grief? [95:15] I mean, much better is the first thing I [95:17] need to say cuz obviously it's been a [95:18] long and dark time. [95:20] Um [95:23] I know that I know [95:27] I'm not there yet because there is a [95:28] part of me that is [95:32] like afraid to let my light really [95:34] shine. [95:37] Explain that. [95:38] I think I sort of touched on it before [95:40] that if I I feel like if I [95:42] you know, if I like throw myself back [95:44] into my career now cuz I've had quite a [95:45] few years out [95:48] and it becomes really successful that [95:49] there's a level of guilt associated with [95:51] that but [95:53] you know, at least I'm aware of that. Um [95:55] I've had a few conversations with close [95:57] friends about it. I [95:59] have quite a timeline ahead of me [96:00] because of book publication and book [96:02] promo. [96:04] And then like, you know, next things [96:06] that we might do. Um [96:08] So, I think I just need to like keep [96:10] working on that as things unfold. Um [96:15] I know it's wrong, but it's how I feel [96:17] at the moment. [96:19] We meet up again in 10 years' time. [96:21] Obviously, we're going to see each other [96:22] before then, but say we we get together [96:23] in 10 years' time, and this next season [96:25] of your life has been a great success. [96:26] Well, what happened? [96:29] Wow. Um [96:32] I got over myself and like put myself [96:35] out there and like really shone, and it [96:39] actually did really help loads of [96:40] people. Um Look at the smile on your [96:42] face as you say that. [96:46] Yeah. [96:48] I really want to say thank you to you as [96:50] well for everything. [96:53] The feeling is mutual. [96:55] You know, it really is. You you were [96:57] transformative for for this show, and um [97:00] everywhere I go still today people come [97:01] up to me and tell me about how that [97:03] conversation helped them, it inspired [97:04] them in some way, but also helped them [97:06] understand, as you said earlier in this [97:07] conversation, that all that we know [97:10] isn't all that there is to know. [97:12] >> Yeah. And just that, you know, I've [97:14] tried to play a bit of a skeptic [97:15] throughout this conversation. I am [97:16] naturally skeptical, but the other thing [97:18] that's that the from being a podcast to [97:20] the other thing that happens to you is [97:21] you become more open-minded. It's it's [97:24] almost this paradox. You think you're [97:25] going to learn more, but actually [97:26] through the through the conversations [97:28] I've had, I've realized that there's so [97:30] much that I don't know. [97:31] And actually, that's forced me more into [97:34] an agnostic position than I was before. [97:36] And what I mean by that is it's forced [97:38] me into a state where I can't fall into [97:40] the trap of thinking I know things. [97:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, this is also why I I I I [97:43] find it hard to commit to any belief, [97:45] like a religious belief or atheism, [97:46] because there's I continually see it [97:48] over and over again, and someone will [97:50] say something to me, [97:52] and I'll be skeptical, and then I'll [97:54] reflect, and then I'll look at the [97:55] research or the science or whatever, and [97:56] I'll change my mind. And if you change [97:58] your mind that many times, you realize [97:59] that [98:00] um your mind should probably not [98:03] be fixed to any position. I love that. [98:05] I'm so glad of you for hearing that. [98:07] That's like an incredible thing for [98:09] people to hear. [98:10] But it's true, and I hope that of my [98:11] audience. You know, I was sat with my [98:13] team a while ago, and I was saying, "Do [98:14] you know what DOAC stands for?" It [98:16] stands for Davids here, I get it. But it [98:17] also stands for people that have that [98:20] are dreamers, that are open-minded, [98:23] which is the O, [98:24] that are in search of increasing their [98:26] awareness, and that could be in [98:27] any [98:28] definition that you want to describe it, [98:30] whether it's awareness of health, [98:31] psychology, [98:32] who they are, and the C is about [98:33] connection. So, that's really like [98:35] hearing your stories makes me feel like [98:38] me, too. [98:39] Mhm. I feel that, too. I'm struggling in [98:41] that way, too. So, that's the framework [98:43] that I think about the show, and that's [98:44] the also why [98:45] I try and remain open-minded to all [98:47] things that I hear, um [98:49] and let people speak. I've never [98:50] actually said that before, but there it [98:51] is, guys. Um [98:53] and I And that's why I'm I'm so [98:55] compelled by this conversation today. Of [98:56] course, like I'm skeptical. Like I think [98:58] skepticism is healthy. Yeah. Um but I'm [99:00] also open-minded, and that means that [99:02] I'm willing to take what you've said to [99:03] me today [99:04] and to investigate it and run the [99:07] experiments in my own life. [99:09] And if I am open-minded, maybe I'll [99:11] receive some evidence for myself. [99:12] >> Yeah. [99:14] So, thank you. Thank you for doing what [99:15] you're doing. And also, [99:17] you know, as you said earlier, it's much [99:19] easier and safer in life just to sit in [99:20] a box of the known. Like, you're not [99:22] going to get any arrows. Yeah. But it's [99:24] when people through history have dared [99:27] to say that maybe [99:29] the earth revolves around the sun, or [99:31] that maybe the earth isn't flat, they've [99:33] taken the arrows, but that's pushed us [99:36] forward as a society into a better way [99:37] of being. So, I always applaud the [99:42] the the those that have the guts to ask [99:45] questions. [99:47] You know? [99:49] So, I hope that's the audience that I've [99:50] cultivated. I hope they're not too [99:52] narrow-minded [99:53] or too fixed. But, I'm sure they will [99:55] debate and share their anecdotes in the [99:57] comment section. I'm actually really [99:58] looking to to I'm really looking forward [100:00] to reading the comment section. [100:01] >> I know. On this particular conversation, [100:03] cuz I know what it's it's going to be [100:04] full of stories and anecdotes and [100:06] experiences, which I think it's going to [100:07] be really enriching. But, I do ask [100:09] everybody in the comment section to be [100:11] um [100:12] open-minded and empathetic and kind. [100:16] Um [100:17] actively. [100:19] Which means replying to people and being [100:20] kind, because, you know, [100:22] grief, no matter what your opinion is on [100:23] it, is um [100:25] is a very delicate thing. And uh [100:28] we're all trying to find ways to be [100:31] more happier and more connected and uh [100:35] to deal with the reality of of our [100:37] experience. [100:38] We have a closing tradition on this [100:39] podcast. The last guest leaves a [100:40] question for the next guest, not knowing [100:41] who they're leaving it for. Okay. [100:43] And the question left for you [100:46] is [100:49] what is the best thing [100:50] that someone has done for you? [100:54] Oh, [100:55] God. You sure you don't make these [100:57] things up? [100:57] >> what it says here. If anyone wants to [100:59] read it, it's what it says in the book. [101:02] It It's got to be [101:04] Robin showing me that unconditional love [101:06] really does exist. [101:12] Tara, thank you. [101:14] Your new book, The Signs, [101:16] beautiful book, by the way. Thank you. [101:18] Beautiful book. The new science of how [101:20] to trust your instincts [101:22] will be out in September. So, if you're [101:24] listening to this in September, then [101:26] it's out. And I'll link it below for [101:28] anyone that wants to have a read of this [101:29] book. Um [101:31] the really truly unique thing about you [101:33] is that you blend all of these different [101:35] perspectives into your [101:38] your own perspective and your own [101:39] writing and your own research. And so, [101:43] in reading this book, it pulls everybody [101:44] in. [101:45] It pulls in, I think, the skeptics. It [101:46] pulls in the believers. And it pulls [101:48] them all into the same room to confront [101:50] a new possible answer to the nature of [101:52] reality [101:53] that might just serve to help so many of [101:55] us. So, I highly recommend everybody [101:56] gives it a read because [101:58] if you're someone that likes to expand [101:59] your mind and think beyond the known, [102:01] then this is this is the book and this [102:02] is the moment in time because of all the [102:04] reasons you said about loneliness and [102:06] individualism and all these things that [102:08] people need to read books like this. So, [102:10] I highly I'm so excited for it to be in [102:11] the world and I'm so excited to hear [102:12] what everybody um everybody thinks and [102:14] how they receive it. So, thank you for [102:15] writing such a wonderful book. And thank [102:16] you for coming back. And [102:18] thank you again for many years ago now [102:20] blessing our show in a profound way that [102:22] pulled in a huge new audience, which has [102:24] set us on a [102:25] on a an incredible journey. So, yeah. [102:26] Thank you, Tara. [102:27] >> you. [102:30] This has always blown my mind a little [102:31] bit. 53% of you that listen to this show [102:34] regularly haven't yet subscribed to this [102:36] show. So, could I ask you for a favor? [102:38] If you like this show and you like what [102:39] we do here and you want to support us, [102:41] the free, simple way that you can do [102:42] just that is by hitting the subscribe [102:44] button. And my commitment to you is if [102:46] you do that, then I'll do everything in [102:47] my power, me and my team, to make sure [102:49] that this show is better for you every [102:51] single week. We'll listen to your [102:52] feedback. We'll find the guests that you [102:54] want me to speak to. And we'll continue [102:56] to do what we do. Thank you so much. [102:57] Make sure you keep what I'm about to say [102:59] to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you [103:02] to come even deeper into the Diary of a [103:03] CEO. Welcome to my inner circle. This is [103:07] a brand new private community that I'm [103:09] launching to the world. We have so many [103:10] incredible things that happen that you [103:12] are never shown. We have the briefs that [103:15] are on my iPad when I'm recording the [103:16] conversation. We have clips we've never [103:18] released. We have behind-the-scenes [103:20] conversations with the guests and also [103:21] the episodes that we've never ever [103:24] released. And so much more. In the [103:27] circle, you'll have direct access to me. [103:29] You can tell us what you want this show [103:30] to be, who you want us to interview, and [103:32] the types of conversations you would [103:33] love us to have. But, remember for now [103:36] we're only inviting the first 10,000 [103:38] people that join before it closes. So, [103:40] if you want to join our private close [103:42] community, head to the link in the [103:43] description below or go to d o a c [103:45] circle.com. [103:47] I will speak to you then.