Lustig Says Sugar Limits Beat $2.1 Trillion GLP-1 Healthcare Expense

卢斯蒂格称控糖效果优于2.1万亿美元GLP-1药物支出 神经内分泌学家Robert Lustig指出，相较于扩大GLP-1药物的覆盖范围，减少添加糖的摄入不仅能带来更好的减肥效果，还能节省数万亿美元的开支。 Robert Lustig博士探讨了超加工食品、糖以及多巴胺驱动的成瘾对慢性疾病、心理健康和寿命带来的生理与心理影响。他深入分析了公共政策，在批评RFK Jr.疫苗立场的同时，在食品与环境问题上与其达成共识，并对大规模使用GLP-1药物（如Ozempic）提出批评，主张通过饮食控糖来改善健康。此外，对话还就食品选购、肠脑健康，以及如何通过全形食物、膳食纤维和致幻剂等治疗手段恢复神经可塑性提供了切实可行的建议。 Dr. Robert Lustig 指出，阿尔茨海默病仅有约 5% 源于遗传，高达 95% 来自超加工食品、阿斯巴甜等代糖及环境毒素引发的线粒体功能障碍与活性氧（ROS）损伤。 (0:00) 美国超市中约 73% 的食品添加了隐藏糖分；食品工业通过多巴胺刺激机制诱发成瘾与受体下调，促使暴食与抑郁等代谢和精神健康危机。 (6:10) 长期压力会导致皮质醇激增并甲基化催产素受体，引发大脑慢性炎症并削弱人类产生爱、同理心与安全感的能力。 (61:11) Lustig 虽认同 RFK Jr. 在食品透明度和环境化学品监管上的主张，但强烈反对其反疫苗立场，并警告在未减少糖摄入的前提下贸然取消自来水加氟将引发严重的公共卫生灾难。 (39:28)

Pediatric neuroendocrinologist Dr. Robert Lustig argues that the modern epidemic of chronic metabolic and neurodegenerative illnesses is driven primarily by an ultra-processed food supply that damages cellular mitochondria and hijacks brain chemistry, rather than genetic inevitability. He contends that resolving these health crises requires systemic dietary and environmental intervention rather than calorie counting or long-term reliance on pharmaceutical crutches. The Cellular Energy Crisis in Neurodegenerative Disease (18:30) Dr. Lustig dismisses the notion that Alzheimer's disease is strictly hereditary, stating that genetics—specifically the APOE4 allele, which increases risk ninefold—accounts for only about 5% of total cases and can be mitigated through low-fat dietary interventions. Consequently, he attributes 95% of Alzheimer's risk to environmental and lifestyle drivers, particularly ultra-processed diets, air pollution, and microplastics. At the cellular level, mitochondria convert dietary nutrients into adenosine triphosphate (ATP) across 11 biochemical steps, each releasing reactive oxygen species (ROS) as a byproduct. When antioxidant defenses fail due to poor diet, accumulating ROS force cells to suppress ATP production and shunt glucose into storage pathways. This energy shortfall interacts destructively with chronic stress. Sustained high cortisol levels push neurons into metabolic overdrive, sharply increasing ATP consumption while generation stalls. Because amyloid precursor protein (APP) requires continuous ATP to remain in solution, the intracellular energy deficit causes APP to precipitate into amyloid plaques. These aggregates trigger microglial inflammation and subsequent neuronal death. Dr. Lustig notes that artificial sweeteners, particularly aspartame and sucralose, further accelerate this pathway by generating massive volumes of ROS that alter cellular energy metabolism. Dopamine Addiction and Depleted Emotional Well-Being (2:15) According to Dr. Lustig, the modern surge in clinical depression—now affecting 29% of Americans and 4.4% of the global population—stems from a chronic lack of perceived control, which overactivates the amygdala. To numb this distress, individuals turn to dopamine-stimulating substances and behaviors, with ultra-processed foods serving as the primary vehicle. An estimated 73% of items in American grocery stores contain hidden sugar, marketed under 262 different names to deliberately trigger neurochemical rewards. Relentless dopamine overstimulation eventually causes excitotoxicity, prompting downstream neurons to downregulate their receptors to survive. This biochemical shift transforms casual enjoyment into tolerance and dependency, progressing systematically from liking to wanting and needing. Compounding this cycle, processed diets deplete the neurochemical foundations of emotional well-being. Chronic cortisol leads to methylation of oxytocin receptors, eroding feelings of safety and social bonding. Furthermore, serotonin—the neurotransmitter responsible for contentment and the suppression of amygdala panic—relies on dietary tryptophan, the rarest amino acid in the food supply. Because 90% of serotonin is produced in the gut, ultra-processed diets and gut inflammation disrupt the afferent vagus nerve pathway, leaving individuals chronically depleted of serotonin and trapped in dopamine-seeking behavior. Metabolic Myths: Calories, Juicing, and Exercise Limitations (28:43) Dr. Lustig challenges foundational nutrition dogmas, arguing that standard calorie counting ignores cellular biochemistry. While a bomb calorimeter measures total heat release when food is incinerated, human mitochondria operate differently: they capture energy to generate ATP while dissipating 35% to 40% as body heat. Under biological definitions, food must promote growth or energy burning. Fructose, however, actively suppresses mitochondrial ATP production and impairs bone growth, leading Dr. Lustig to classify it as a chronic metabolic poison rather than a nutrient. This biochemical framework also refutes common weight-loss assumptions regarding exercise and fruit consumption. While Dr. Lustig strongly advocates exercise for stimulating mitochondrial biogenesis, increasing brain-derived neurotrophic factor (BDNF), and preserving muscle mass against sarcopenia, he cautions that relying on workouts to burn off excess calories or curb sugar cravings is an illusion. Similarly, he rejects fruit juice and blended smoothies as healthy alternatives. While whole fruit contains an insoluble fiber matrix that slows sugar absorption and nourishes the microbiome to produce anti-inflammatory short-chain fatty acids, high-speed blender blades shear this protective lattice, resulting in rapid fructose absorption identical to drinking liquid sugar water. Systemic Reformulation Versus Pharmaceutical Weight-Loss Solutions (70:40) Addressing obesity interventions, Dr. Lustig evaluates GLP-1 receptor agonists like semaglutide across multiple domains. Clinically, he views them as useful emergency tools for patients with extreme obesity (BMI 40–45). However, he highlights substantial scientific and economic concerns: GLP-1s dull brain reward centers, pose a 3.4% risk of long-term gastroparesis, yield weight loss that is roughly 50% lean muscle mass, and lead to rapid weight regain upon discontinuation. Economically, providing GLP-1s to all eligible Americans would cost $2.1 trillion annually, introducing an unsustainable 50% surcharge to existing U.S. healthcare spending. In contrast, Dr. Lustig estimates that reducing added sugar intake to the USDA guideline of 12 teaspoons (48 grams) daily would generate a 29% average weight loss and save $3.0 trillion—a combined $5.1 trillion fiscal swing without pharmacological side effects. Rather than relying on lifelong pharmaceuticals or expecting impossible consumer willpower, Dr. Lustig advocates re-engineering the food supply using his three-part "Metabolic Matrix": protect the liver, feed the gut, and support the brain. Proving the commercial viability of this approach, his scientific advisory team worked with the Kuwait Dairy Company to reformulate 10% of their product line (18 items) to be metabolically benign, maintaining consumer taste preferences and corporate profitability in a country facing an 80% obesity rate. Dr. Lustig maintains that clinical interventions alone cannot solve population-level metabolic illness without structural policy reforms, such as removing sugary drinks from federal SNAP subsidies and formally codifying processed food addiction as a medical diagnosis. A major unresolved challenge remains coordinating food policy with broader public health measures—such as balancing the removal of neurotoxic fluoride from tap water against the risk of catastrophic dental decay as long as added sugars dominate the commercial food supply.

Robert Lustig 博士指出，现代社会高发的阿尔茨海默病、抑郁症与代谢疾病的核心诱因在于超加工食品和添加糖引发的细胞能量衰竭与多巴胺神经劫持。他认为将这些慢性病单纯归咎于基因或热量过剩是严重的认知偏差，真正的解决之道在于重构食品代谢基质、阻断糖成瘾，而非依赖昂贵的减重药物或过度迷信运动消耗。 细胞能量危机与阿尔茨海默病环境诱因 (18:30) Lustig 博士直言将阿尔茨海默病完全归咎于基因是“垃圾理论”。尽管携带两份 APOE4 等位基因会使患病风险增加 9 倍，但该基因突变仅占总病例的 5%，且可通过极低脂饮食将风险降回基准线；其余 95% 的患病风险主要源自环境因素、微塑料（目前已占人脑重量的二百分之一）以及超加工食品。全美目前有超过 700 万阿尔茨海默病患者，未来预计增至近 1300 万。其致病机理可归结为三步能量崩溃反应：首先，线粒体合成三磷酸腺苷（ATP）的 11 个生化步骤均会产生副产物活性氧（ROS），超加工饮食破坏了体内的抗氧化清除机制，积累的 ROS 迫使细胞关闭能量燃烧并转向异常脂肪储存；其次，慢性压力与缺眠导致皮质醇激增，迫使神经元进入高代谢消耗状态，造成严重的细胞能量赤字；最终，缺乏足够 ATP 维持溶解状态的淀粉样前体蛋白（APP）沉淀聚集为淀粉样斑块，诱发小胶质细胞炎症并加速神经元凋亡。 此外，发表于《神经病学年鉴》（Annals of Neurology）的研究表明，阿斯巴甜和三氯蔗糖等人工甜味剂会直接诱发大量 ROS，从而破坏细胞能量代谢并增加痴呆风险。Lustig 指出，高果糖摄入、缺乏 omega-3 脂肪酸与膳食纤维、工业乳化剂滥用以及 B 族维生素缺乏，均是推高 ROS 和神经炎症的关键膳食驱动因素。 多巴胺劫持、受体下调与糖类成瘾 (6:10) 现代生活中对失控环境的无力感导致杏仁核持续过度激活，引发严重的心理痛苦与临床抑郁（全美抑郁症患者比例达 29%，全球达 4.4%）。为了缓解痛苦，人们往往转向能促使多巴胺释放的物质或行为。多巴胺负责学习与奖赏动机，但伏隔核接收的长期过度刺激会导致兴奋性神经毒性并杀死细胞。为了自我保护，下游神经元会主动下调受体密度，形成耐受性与成瘾闭环——从最初纯粹的快感（Liking）演变为过度滥用（Wanting），最终恶化为必须依赖刺激维持生理平衡的病理性渴求（Needing）。 Lustig 强调，美国超市中 73% 的货品含有隐形糖，且被伪装在 262 种不同名称之下，其根本目的是通过人工制造的多巴胺刺激锁定消费者的重复购买习惯。他进一步区分了多巴胺（快感）与血清素（幸福感/满足感）的本质区别：多巴胺属于兴奋性递质，传达“我还想要更多”的冲动，长期过度激活会导致细胞凋亡；而体内 90% 在肠道合成的血清素则传达“我已足够”的抑制信号。由于超加工食品极度匮乏合成血清素所必需的稀有氨基酸——色氨酸，长期摄入直接导致血清素耗竭与肠脑轴功能紊乱，使人深陷孤独感、皮质醇上升与糖类依赖的恶性循环。 超加工食品缺陷与代谢基质重构 (32:55) Lustig 总结了超加工食品的五大核心结构缺陷：过量糖分（直接毒害线粒体功能并遏制 ATP 生成）、纤维匮乏（饥饿肠道微生物群并引发全身炎症）、严重缺乏 omega-3 脂肪酸（破坏脑细胞膜稳定性）、过量工业乳化剂（瓦解肠黏膜屏障诱发肠漏）以及石油基染料添加剂。针对传统营养学推崇的热量理论，他反驳称人体线粒体并非测热计：线粒体在将能量转化为化学 ATP 的同时，会释放 35% 至 40% 的能量作为体温散失，单纯计算摄入卡路里毫无生物代谢意义。果糖不仅会抑制线粒体燃烧，还会抑制骨骼发育，导致长期摄入超加工食品的儿童出现身材矮小，因此高果糖属于慢性代谢毒物而非营养素。 面对 2050 年全球需供养百亿人口的现实，Lustig 认为彻底消灭加工食品并不现实，必须对其进行科学再造。他与科威特乳制品公司（KDDD）合作，针对当地 80% 的成人肥胖率和 18% 的糖尿病率，践行“保护肝脏、滋养肠道、支持大脑”的代谢矩阵（Metabolic Matrix）原则，成功在不改变化学风味与商业利润的前提下，重构了 18 款产品（占其产品线 10%）。针对日常选食，他指出水果榨汁会遗弃关键的膳食纤维，而搅拌机制作果昔的高速刀刃同样会剪碎不溶性纤维网格，导致糖分吸收入血速度与纯果汁无异；消费者在超市选购时应紧贴冷柜与生鲜所在的货架外围，一旦配料表前三位含有糖，该食品在代谢上就等同于甜品。 减重药物局限、运动误区与政策博弈 (70:40) 针对风靡全球的 Ozempic 等 GLP-1 受体激动剂，Lustig 从多重角度指出其局限：临床上它仅适合 BMI 达 40–45 且面临生命危险的极端患者；生理上，该药减掉的体重中多达 50% 为肌肉组织（加剧肌少症），停药后体重快速反弹，有 3.4% 的使用者会罹患不可逆的胃轻瘫，且因钝化脑奖赏回路而存在抑郁风险；经济上，若全美符合条件的群体普遍用药，每年医疗开支将增加 2.1 万亿美元（增幅达 50%），加速已预计在 2029 年破产的联邦医疗保险（Medicare）彻底崩溃。相比之下，若仅将饮食添加糖削减至 USDA 指南建议的每日 12 茶匙（48 克）以内，不仅能带来约 29% 的平均减重（显著高于 GLP-1 药物的 16%），还能为全美节约约 3.0 万亿美元医疗开支，形成高达 5.1 万亿美元的总体经济效益转向。 此外，Lustig 澄清了依靠运动减重的迷思。运动能刺激线粒体生物合成、促进脑源性神经营养因子（BDNF）释放以抵抗认知障碍与肌肉衰减，但所谓通过运动“消耗掉甜甜圈热量”纯属幻想。在宏观政策上，针对全美约 40% 成人处于前前期糖尿病的现实，他支持普及连续血糖监测仪（CGM）以捕捉隐性胰岛素峰值。在与政界人士的交锋中，他支持整顿食品化学物质与医药透明度，但坚决反对反疫苗立场（强调疫苗在过去 50 年拯救了 1.54 亿人生命）；对于水质氟化问题，他警告若在未从食品中剔除糖分之前盲目停止供水加氟，将迅速导致全国范围内严重的蛀牙、脓毒症等公共卫生危机。 Lustig 认为，摆脱代谢紊乱与认知退化危机的根本，在于识别食品工业利用多巴胺机制设下的商业陷阱，通过剔除添加糖、补充天然纤维以及恢复真实社交联结来改善生物基质。然而，在超加工食品深度渗透全球供应链且医疗利益格局根深蒂固的背景下，普通公众如何在缺乏系统性政策庇护的环境中完成个人代谢突围，依然是一个充满阻力的现实挑战。

## Background 本期内容由知名播客频道《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2025 年 10 月 2 日发布在 YouTube 平台上。页面简介指出，全球顶尖的糖瘾与代谢健康专家罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士（Dr. Robert Lustig）在节目中揭示了超加工食品、添加糖和代糖如何引发肥胖、痴呆症、多巴胺过载与成瘾危机，并深入剖析了现代健康管理中的认知陷阱及相关公共卫生争议。 ## TL;DR 卢斯蒂格博士深入阐述了超加工食品和添加糖对现代大脑与代谢系统的系统性“劫持”，指出阿尔茨海默病高达 95% 的风险由线粒体能量危机等环境因素驱动而非纯基因决定。他从神经生物学角度拆解了多巴胺带来的耐受与成瘾机制，揭示了代糖产生氧化自由基的隐患，并提出了“保护肝脏、滋养肠道、支持大脑”的代谢矩阵原则。此外，对话还深入探讨了 GLP-1 类减肥药物（如 Ozempic）抹杀多巴胺奖赏动机的潜在代价、公共控糖政策的巨大价值，以及致幻剂重塑大脑固有思维定式的科学前沿。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话兼具严谨的学术硬核感与深切的人文关怀，语调沉稳却字字直击痛点。卢斯蒂格博士以直言不讳、犀利批判工业食品谎言著称，而在谈及因改变饮食而逆转重病的真实读者留言时，眼中又流露出动容与使命感。主持人 Steven Bartlett 则以普通消费者的困惑与敏锐商业视角不断追问，两人在生化机制拆解、幽默隐喻与宏观公共卫生反思之间切换自如，给听众带来一种震撼颠覆、警钟长鸣却又充满自救希望的沉浸式体验。 ## Bulletin - [25:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1519s) 阿尔茨海默病仅有5%的风险归因于纯遗传因素，高达95%由微塑料、空气污染、超加工食品及阿斯巴甜等代糖诱发ROS导致的能量危机与环境因素驱动，理论上完全可预防。 - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=0s) 美国杂货店中73%的货架食品含有隐形添加糖，食品工业掌握并使用了262种糖类别名，导致全美40%成年人陷入糖尿病前期，并推高了年轻群体中结直肠癌等恶性肿瘤的发病率。 - [01:10:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4248s) 针对GLP-1减肥药（如Ozempic），若全美符合条件者普及将新增2.1万亿美元年医疗支出且流失体重中50%为肌肉；若仅靠公共政策将日添加糖限制在12茶匙内，可在零副作用下减重29%并节省3万亿美元开支。 - [35:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=2104s) 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士提出评估食物是否健康的“代谢矩阵”三原则：保护肝脏、滋养肠道、支持大脑，任何食物只要同时满足这三点即属健康，与其是否属于工业加工无关。 ## Key takeaways - [02:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=135s) 失控感与慢性压力会过度激活杏仁核，迫使大脑寻求多巴胺刺激来掩盖痛苦，形成从“喜欢”到“想要”再到病理性“需要”的成瘾闭环。 - [11:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=672s) 多巴胺受体在长期慢性刺激下会启动自我保护而下调，引发耐受性；重塑受体敏感度与自控力通常需要大约三周的彻底戒断或断食期。 - [15:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=902s) 阿斯巴甜和三氯蔗糖等人工甜味剂会刺激大量活性氧（ROS）生成，破坏线粒体能量代谢，并与痴呆症发病显著相关。 - [21:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1275s) 阿尔茨海默病的本质是脑细胞能量危机：ROS抑制ATP合成叠加皮质醇加速ATP消耗，导致淀粉样前体蛋白失去维持溶解状态的能量而析出形成斑块。 - [28:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1723s) 弹式热量计的物理燃烧热量不能等同于细胞可用能量，果糖不仅阻碍线粒体产生ATP还抑制骨骼生长，生化本质上属于代谢毒素而非真正食物。 - [35:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=2104s) 健康食品的判定标准在于“代谢矩阵”原则：保护肝脏（Protect the liver）、滋养肠道（Feed the gut）、支持大脑（Support the brain）。 - [47:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=2823s) 小罗伯特·肯尼迪的反疫苗立场是基于法律先例与免责壁垒的绝对风险思维，与医学界基于整体群体健康、统计学概率与风险收益比的循证决策存在本质冲突。 - [01:00:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3604s) 大脑长期发炎会导致催产素受体DNA甲基化并耗竭血清素，使个体在生理层面彻底丧失感受爱、安全感与建立人际联结的能力。 - [01:03:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3835s) 孤独与独处的生物学分水岭在于血清素储备；人体90%的血清素源于肠道，需依赖健康的迷走神经向上传递安宁感与直觉信号。 - [01:10:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4248s) GLP-1受体激动剂虽能抑制奖赏渴求，但减重流失的成分中一半为肌肉，伴随3.4%的不可逆胃轻瘫风险，且可能全面钝化个体的内在生活动力。 - [01:18:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4709s) 超市采购核心准则：切忌空腹购物、严格在外围生鲜区选购，凡配料表前三位含糖的加工食品在营养学上均属于甜点。 - [01:21:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4909s) 高糖与高果糖通过诱发胰岛素激增、损害线粒体氧化功能并激活戊糖磷酸等代谢通路，直接为癌细胞分裂增殖提供原料工厂。 - [01:28:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5315s) 果汁和破壁机打碎的冰沙破坏了水果天然的纤维网架，导致游离果糖急速冲入小肠被吸收，诱发肝脏毒性且无法滋养大肠菌群。 - [01:33:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5630s) 运动具有增加线粒体储备和分泌BDNF以护脑抗衰的巨大益处，但由于不能降低神经对糖的渴求，无法直接等同于减重手段。 - [01:38:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5932s) 连续血糖监测仪（CGM）能够揭示橙汁、白米饭和番茄酱等所谓“健康食品”引发的剧烈血糖峰值，是非糖尿病人群建立代谢反馈的有效工具。 - [01:41:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6105s) 致幻剂作为强效血清素拟似物，如同重塑雪坡的“暴风雪”，能在神经突触层面重新连接回路，打破大脑固有的认知死胡同。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=0s) 导言：被颠覆的健康神话与被劫持的现代大脑 很多人根深蒂固地认为阿尔茨海默病纯粹是遗传性疾病，但罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士（Dr. Robert Lustig）直截了当地驳斥了这种观点：“那是胡扯。”科学证据表明，阿尔茨海默病的遗传归因比例仅占 5%，这意味着高达 95% 的风险完全取决于环境因素——包括空气污染、微塑料以及充斥现代生活的超加工食品。卢斯蒂格博士特别透露，最新发表的研究证实代糖（人工甜味剂）摄入与痴呆症之间存在显著关联，而其背后的生物学机制即将首次向公众揭开。 现代食品工业深谙如何利用人体的弱点牟利。在美国普通杂货店中，多达 73% 的货架商品无异于“毒药”，因为糖分被巧妙地隐蔽在各类日常食物中。食品企业掌握并使用了整整 262 种糖的别名，因为他们深知只要添加糖，消费者的购买欲望就会被点燃。糖分进入人体后会刺激大脑释放多巴胺，而多巴胺的致瘾性正是引发一系列生化代谢紊乱与慢性疾病的根源。现有流行病学与临床数据清晰表明，超加工食品与痴呆症、2型糖尿病、癌症以及几乎所有精神健康疾病紧密相连。 面对这种系统性的食品陷阱，卢斯蒂格博士提出了几条去伪存真的辨识准则：首先，“如果一种食品带有营养标签，那它本质上就是一个警示标签”；其次，如果配料表前三位包含任何形式的糖，那它在营养学分类上就属于甜点；最后，绝不要在饥肠辘辘时走进超市。此外，他也打破了运动减肥的神话——运动固然有其独立的代谢益处，但它无法抑制大脑对糖分的渴求，如果指望靠运动来减重，那完全是“自欺欺人”。 - 阿尔茨海默病的风险构成：5% 为基因遗传，95% 由环境因素驱动（如微塑料、空气污染、超加工食品与代糖）。 - 货架陷阱：美国杂货店中 73% 的加工食品含有隐形添加糖；食品工业使用的糖类名称多达 262 种。 - 选购法则：有包装标签的加工食品需警惕；前三种成分见糖即视为“甜点”；切忌空腹购物。 --- ### [02:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=135s) “被劫持的大脑”与控制感的幻觉 在谈及人类心理与代谢危机时，卢斯蒂格博士提出了“被劫持的大脑”（The Hostage Brain）这一概念。主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此感同身受：人们总是在健康、健身和日常习惯上渴望掌控感，却往往在深夜两点独自面对酒店房间里的饼干时彻底失控。卢斯蒂格博士指出，追求控制是人类的天性，因为在进化层面上，“掌控”意味着降低威胁。 然而，现代人所执着的控制往往只是一种虚妄的幻象。负责监控威胁的核心脑区是杏仁核（Amygdala）——它既是大脑 24 小时不间断站岗的哨兵，也如同篮球场上的控球后卫，随时审视全场攻防，并在电光石火间做出决策。但当个体越是拼命想要掌控那些根本无法控制的事物时，杏仁核就会持续过度激活，从而诱发难以承受的巨大压力与精神痛苦。 当这种无法掌控局面的心理痛苦向内转化时，便演变成了临床上的抑郁症。目前美国有高达 29% 的人口患有抑郁症，全球范围内的抑郁症发病率也达到了 4.4%，而在上一代人中这一比例几乎微不足道。为了抚平这种由失控感带来的精神痛苦，人们开始不自觉地诉诸外部刺激——无论是可卡因、安非他命、尼古丁、酒精、糖分，还是赌博、社交媒体、网络游戏或色情内容。这些刺激的共同机制都是诱发多巴胺激增，用短暂的快感去掩盖深层的痛苦，最终让大脑深陷过度消费与持续痛苦的无尽恶性循环中。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 失控感与多巴胺成瘾循环 accDescr: 展示从追求控制到压力产生、抑郁、多巴胺依赖直至大脑被劫持的完整恶性循环通路。 subgraph PsychologicalStress["心理机制：失控与压力"] A["追求绝对控制感"] --> B["发现现实无法掌控"] B --> C["杏仁核持续预警过度激活"] C --> D["巨大压力与精神痛苦"] D --> E["向内压抑：抑郁症爆发"] end subgraph AddictiveLoop["生化代偿：成瘾闭环"] D --> F["寻找缓解途径（糖/酒精/社交网络）"] F --> G["多巴胺瞬时爆发（掩盖痛苦）"] G --> H["多巴胺受体下调与耐受"] H --> I["需要更大刺激，陷入恶性循环"] I --> J["'被劫持的大脑'：不可自拔"] end ``` --- ### [06:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=370s) 多巴胺的双重机制：学习、奖赏与受体下调 要理解成瘾与行为失控，就必须透视多巴胺在大脑中的两项基本功能。第一项功能是“学习”：神经生物学上不存在没有多巴胺参与的认知学习过程。无论是正面还是负面经验，多巴胺都会刺激基底外侧杏仁核（Basolateral Amygdala）进行神经重塑。例如，三岁孩童在手碰到滚烫火炉产生剧痛的瞬间，多巴胺即刻释放并重塑该脑区回路，刻下“再也不碰火炉”的长久记忆。 多巴胺的第二项功能是作为“奖赏与动机”的驱动力。当多巴胺投射到大脑的奖赏中心——伏隔核（Nucleus Accumbens）时，它所激发的是对奖赏的强烈渴望与期待。卢斯蒂格博士用了一个生动的比喻：多巴胺本质上就是“前戏”（Foreplay），它是驱使个体持续推进某种行为的兴奋感与动力源泉。在自然进化的短暂停留中，学习与奖赏机制协同运作，引导人类适应生存环境。 然而，任何神经元只要受到长期、慢性的过度刺激，就会走向凋亡（Neuronal Cell Death）。多巴胺正是一种强烈的兴奋性神经递质。当神经元遭遇持续不断的多巴胺洪流轰炸时，为了避免自我毁灭，突触后膜会自发启动保护机制——下调（Downregulate）多巴胺受体的数量。受体减少意味着神经递质与受体结合的概率大幅降低，个体必须摄入更多刺激物才能达到最初的微弱满足。这种在经济学与生物学上均成立的“收益递减规律”，正是临床上所谓的“耐受性”（Tolerance）。 - 多巴胺学习机制：负责对正面或惩罚性体验在大脑回路中进行突触可塑性重塑。 - 伏隔核奖赏效应：多巴胺主要负责激发渴望（Desire/Motivation）而非单纯的终极满足。 - 受体下调机制：高频刺激导致受体减少，引发耐受性，“投入越来越多，回报越来越少”。 --- ### [09:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=559s) 从“喜欢”到“想要”再到“需要”：耐受与成瘾的生物学通路 耐受性是成瘾的真正开端。一旦受体下调形成，下一次为了获得同等强度的快感冲击，个体就必须寻找更大剂量的刺激，这反过来又促使受体进一步减少；恶性循环不断演进，直至最后个体哪怕摄入极大剂量的刺激物，也几乎感受不到任何愉悦。当长期的神经毒性过度刺激最终导致神经细胞不可逆地死亡时，纯粹的行为失控就正式恶化为病理学上的“成瘾”（Addiction）。 对于高糖和超加工食品成瘾者而言，这一神经生理过程每天都在上演。无论是第一次尝试甜麦圈（Froot Loops）、玉米糖，还是喝下一大杯星冰乐（Frappuccino），高浓度的糖分都会在脑内引发剧烈的“糖分核爆”。伏隔核瞬间被巨量的多巴胺淹没，大脑欢呼雀跃并产生极度愉悦；但一小时后，随着多巴胺迅速消退，神经系统便陷入极度匮乏，强烈的空虚感随即催生再次摄入的渴望。 卢斯蒂格博士精辟地剖析了成瘾过程的三部曲跃迁：“第一次接触时，你是‘喜欢’（Liking）；第二次重复时，你变成了‘想要’（Wanting）；而到了第三次，你已经变成了‘需要’（Needing）。”“喜欢”是正常的人类情感体验，没有人试图剥夺这种享受；然而当神经回路演变为失控的“想要”与强迫性的“需要”时，机体便彻底沦为病态物质依赖的附庸。 - 耐受与成瘾的分界线：从多巴胺受体代偿性减少（耐受）最终走向神经元过度兴奋性坏死（成瘾）。 - 摄入三阶段心理转变： 1. **喜欢（Liking）**：初次体验的高多巴胺爆发与正向情绪反馈。 2. **想要（Wanting）**：受体轻度减少后产生的心理渴望与强化追求。 3. **需要（Needing）**：严重耐受与神经损伤后，不摄入便无法维持生理机能的病态渴求。 ### [11:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=672s) 重塑大脑多巴胺：断瘾与“多巴胺断食” 当谈到对糖或某种“毒药”上瘾时，核心问题在于大脑中发生了什么，以及该如何自我修复。Robert Lustig 博士解释说，想要解决成瘾问题，最终唯一有效的方法就是让大脑中的多巴胺受体数量重新回升（upregulate）。多巴胺本身会下调其受体；因此，只有降低刺激，受体才能慢慢长回来。 硅谷目前流行一种名为“多巴胺断食”（Dopamine Fasting）的趋势： - 有些人会把自己关在酒店房间里长达三周，不洗澡、搬走电视机，切断所有外界刺激，只与自己和自然独处，以此强行让多巴胺受体回升。 - 这种情况在可卡因成瘾者身上尤为显著，因为可卡因是一种多巴胺重摄取抑制剂（dopamine reuptake inhibitor），它会使突触间隙充斥着极高浓度的多巴胺，导致多巴胺受体“彻底跌入下水道”。 - 普通人虽然不需要采取如此极端的方式，但完全戒断（abstinence）或逐步减量同样需要大约三周的时间才能见效。戒糖之所以极其困难，是因为糖在现代社会随处可见，一年 365 天、一天 24 小时、在每一个街角都在诱惑着人们。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 多巴胺受体与成瘾循环机制 accDescr: 展示高多巴胺刺激导致受体下调与戒断恢复受体的过程对比 subgraph AddictionLoop["高刺激成瘾通路"] A["高糖/药物刺激"] --> B["多巴胺大量释放"] B --> C["多巴胺受体被迫下调 (Downregulation)"] C --> D["耐受性增加，需要更强刺激"] end subgraph RecoveryPath["断食与戒断修复通路"] E["多巴胺断食 / 戒断 (约3周)"] --> F["移除高强度外界刺激"] F --> G["多巴胺受体逐渐回升 (Upregulation)"] G --> H["神经敏感度与自控力恢复"] end ``` ### [13:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=791s) 戒糖如何重塑大脑回路与食品工业的糖隐瞒 Steven Bartlett 分享了自己践行生酮饮食（Ketogenic Diet）时的亲身经历：他极其热爱肉桂卷，尽管平时可能两年才吃一次，但一直是肉桂卷的狂热崇拜者。而在生酮饮食四周、彻底切断糖和碳水化合物后，他在开普敦路过一家专门做精品肉桂卷的店，惊奇地发现自己的大脑竟然对其“毫无半点兴趣（zero part of my brain was interested）”，仿佛大脑神经回路被彻底重组了。 Lustig 博士确认了这一点，指出只要彻底移除有害刺激，大脑确实会发生这种生理重构，但这需要较长时间，绝不是一朝一夕能随意切换的开关： - 在其肥胖门诊中，帮助患者戒除糖瘾是日常工作，有时甚至需要像保姆一样全程盯防，与患者及其父母紧密配合，彻底清空整个储藏室。 - 食品工业界隐藏糖的手段极其狡猾，目前糖的别称有整整 262 种，食品工业将这些名称全用上了。 - 正因如此，Lustig 博士与团队正在积极推动世界卫生组织（WHO）和美国精神医学学会（APA）将“糖成瘾”和“超加工食品成瘾”正式编纂为公认的医学诊断，从而让患者能够名正言顺地获得医疗干预和心理治疗。 ### [15:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=902s) 代糖并不无害：阿斯巴甜、三氯蔗糖与痴呆症的关联 针对许多人认为无糖可乐（Diet Coke）、零度可乐（Coke Zero）中使用的代糖是无害替代品的误区，Lustig 博士给出了极其明确的否定回答。就在访谈前三天，《神经病学年鉴》（*Annals of Neurology*）刚发表了一篇重磅论文，明确指出非营养性甜味剂（代糖）的摄入与痴呆症（Dementia）显著相关。 导致脑神经损伤的核心罪魁祸首是**活性氧（Reactive Oxygen Species, ROS）**，即氧自由基： - 活性氧是细胞代谢中产生的微小化学物质，不仅会打乱细胞的能量代谢，还会直接造成细胞损伤。 - 市场上最常见的两大人工甜味剂——**阿斯巴甜（Aspartame）**和**三氯蔗糖（Sucralose）**，被证实会诱发大量的 ROS 生成。 - 至于罗汉果苷（Monk fruit extract）、甜菊糖苷（Stevia）和阿洛酮糖（Allulose）是否也会产生 ROS，Lustig 博士表示他专门检索了数据，目前尚未发现证据；但阿斯巴甜和三氯蔗糖产生高量 ROS 的证据非常确凿。 ### [17:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1030s) 线粒体、ATP 危机与脑功能衰退 Lustig 博士首次公开分享了他即将前往圣迭戈演讲的全新阿尔茨海默病致病假说。该理论的核心根基在于脑细胞内被称为“微型能量燃烧工厂”的细胞器——线粒体（Mitochondria）。线粒体将食物中的能量转化为细胞运转所需的“化学通用货币”三磷酸腺苷（ATP）： - ATP 释放能量的过程是通过断开磷酸键：ATP（三磷酸腺苷）水解为 ADP（二磷酸腺苷），再水解为 AMP（一磷酸腺苷），最终降解为腺苷（Adenosine）。 - 腺苷会与腺苷受体结合，触发睡眠信号；而咖啡因的作用机制正是阻断腺苷受体，使腺苷无法结合，从而维持清醒。 - ATP 是神经元运转的汽油，一旦神经元内的 ATP 枯竭，细胞就会缺乏动力而瘫痪，外在表现依次为脑雾（brain fog）、注意力涣散、烦躁易怒，乃至重度抑郁症。 线粒体产生能量的过程伴随着代价：在线粒体生成 ATP 的 11 个代谢步骤中，每一步都会产生像“有毒废气”一样的 ROS。正常情况下，细胞依靠谷胱甘肽（Glutathione）、维生素 E、维生素 C 和类黄酮等抗氧化剂来清除熄灭 ROS。然而，一旦长期食用缺乏微量元素的超加工食品，体内的抗氧化防御系统就会崩溃： - 积聚的 ROS 会发出反馈信号，警告细胞能量代谢过载，强行关闭向线粒体输送葡萄糖以合成 ATP 的正常通路。 - 葡萄糖被分流并转化为大脑内部的糖原甚至脂肪，导致神经元的能量生产能力严重退步，ATP 净生成量锐减。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 阿尔茨海默病能量危机与淀粉样蛋白沉积的三步病理机制 accDescr: 展示ATP生成减少、皮质醇加速消耗以及APP沉淀形成斑块的完整过程 subgraph Step1["步骤一：ATP 生成锐减"] direction TB A["超加工食品 / 代糖 (阿斯巴甜、三氯蔗糖)"] --> B["大量产生活性氧 (ROS)"] B --> C["抗氧化系统 (谷胱甘肽等) 耗竭"] C --> D["葡萄糖分流至糖原/脂肪"] D --> E["线粒体 ATP 生成骤降"] end subgraph Step2["步骤二：ATP 消耗激增"] direction TB F["压力 / 睡眠剥夺 / 外源性皮质类固醇"] --> G["皮质醇 (Cortisol) 升高"] G --> H["神经元代谢过度加速"] H --> I["ATP 消耗速率暴增"] end subgraph Step3["步骤三：能量衰竭与淀粉样斑块"] direction TB E & I --> J["神经元出现严重能量危机 (ATP 枯竭)"] J --> K["脑雾、易怒、抑郁"] J --> L["淀粉样前体蛋白 (APP) 失去维持溶解的能量"] L --> M["APP 析出并发生聚集，形成淀粉样斑块 (Plaques)"] end ``` ### [21:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1275s) 皮质醇双重夹击与阿尔茨海默斑块的形成机制 在 ATP 生成遭到压制的同时，神经元迎来了第二重打击——皮质醇（Cortisol）带来的过度消耗： - 心理压力、长期睡眠剥夺以及因自身免疫疾病等服用的外源性糖皮质激素（类固醇），都会导致体内皮质醇水平飙升。 - 皮质醇会迫使神经元进入高代谢运转状态，像猛踩油门一样极速燃烧能量，导致神经元对 ATP 的消耗量急剧增加。 - 一方面 ATP 生成锐减，另一方面 ATP 消耗狂飙，神经元陷入致命的“能量危机”。 随之而来的第三步，直接揭开了阿尔茨海默病病理斑块形成的物理化学机制： - 每个神经元内部都含有一种正常的结构蛋白——淀粉样前体蛋白（Amyloid Precursor Protein, 简称 APP）。 - APP 必须在充足能量的维持下才能稳定保持在溶液状态（溶解于细胞液中）。 - 一旦神经元内的 ATP 水平消耗殆尽、能量彻底见底，APP 就会丧失维持溶解状态的能量支撑，脱离溶液状态沉淀析出，互相粘连聚集，最终形成了阿尔茨海默病标志性的**淀粉样斑块（Amyloid Plaques）**。这表明斑块的形成本质上是大脑神经元能量严重匮乏后的生化后果。 ### [23:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1382s) 阿尔茨海默病的能量病理与汽车引擎隐喻 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士（Dr. Robert Lustig）深入剖析了阿尔茨海默病（Alzheimer's disease）在细胞层面的发展级联反应。这一恶性循环始于细胞内的 ATP 能量危机：当线粒体能量供给不足时，会产生大量活性氧（ROS，即自由基）并促使淀粉样蛋白斑块沉积；沉积的斑块直接损伤神经元，进而激活周围的小胶质细胞（microglia）前来清理受损组织，诱发慢性神经炎症；而在斑块积聚与剧烈炎症的双重夹击下，神经元大面积死亡，最终表现为不可逆的认知衰退与失智症（dementia）。不仅所有能诱发活性氧生成的因素都与阿尔茨海默病紧密相连，任何增加 ATP 消耗的生理压力——例如慢性压力、糖皮质激素过量、长期发热或自身免疫性疾病——都会加剧这种能量匮乏，加速神经元凋亡。 为了让没有生物医学背景的听众直观理解这一机制，主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）邀请卢斯蒂格博士用“加油站与汽车”的类比来进行通俗化拆解。博士解释道，人体的运转就像一辆汽车依赖汽油： - **汽油注入**：相当于摄入葡萄糖等能源底物； - **引擎运转**：气缸驱动活塞，活塞带动传动轴； - **轴轮驱动**：传动轴带动车轮旋转，车辆得以平稳行驶。 然而，整条传动链路极为精密，任何一个环节受阻都会导致动力瘫痪。例如，如果进气歧管积满了碳沉积物，燃油就无法顺畅进入气缸燃烧。人体也是如此，当细胞代谢通道受阻、毒素积聚时，原本应如跑车般强劲高效的身体与大脑，最终就会沦为一台随时抛锚的“老爷破车”（jalopy）。面对美国已有超过 700 万人确诊阿尔茨海默病、且未来数十年内预计翻倍至近 1300 万人的严峻现状，卢斯蒂格博士直言，根本原因在于医学界从未真正解决这一底层代谢机制问题。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 阿尔茨海默病的三步能量病理级联反应 accDescr: 展示从线粒体ATP能量危机到自由基、斑块与炎症，最终导致神经元死亡的过程。 subgraph Step1["阶段一：能量危机与氧化压力"] A["高耗能/代谢受阻<br/>(压力、果糖、炎症)"] --> B["ATP 能量短缺"] B --> C["产生大量活性氧 (ROS)"] end subgraph Step2["阶段二：斑块与免疫激活"] C --> D["淀粉样蛋白斑块沉积"] D --> E["激活小胶质细胞 (Microglia)"] E --> F["慢性神经炎症爆发"] end subgraph Step3["阶段三：不可逆病变"] F --> G["神经元细胞大量死亡"] G --> H["阿尔茨海默病 / 认知失智"] end ``` ### [25:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1519s) 95% 环境驱动：基因背锅与超加工食品的毒害 针对公众普遍认为“阿尔茨海默病主要由基因决定”的宿命论观点，卢斯蒂格博士痛斥其为“一派胡言”（garbage）。他坦承基因确实扮演了一定角色——特别是携带有两份载脂蛋白 E4 等位基因（APOE ε4）的人群，其患阿尔茨海默病的风险是普通人群的 9 倍。从人类演化史来看，APOE ε4 在远古时期具有生存优势，因为它能极为迅速地将脂肪运送至大脑以备不时之需；但在营养过剩的现代社会，这种机制反而成了负担。然而，即便是双重 APOE ε4 携带者，也完全能够通过改变饮食生活方式（例如严格采用超低脂饮食）将患病风险大幅拉低至接近普通人的基准线。更关键的科学事实是：纯粹的遗传因素仅占阿尔茨海默病全部病例的 5%，这意味着高达 **95% 的风险完全由后天环境因素驱动**，理论上完全可以预防。 在环境驱动因素中，一部分属于个体短期内无法左右的宏观暴露，包括空气污染、电离辐射以及环境中无处不在的微塑料；但另一大部分风险完全掌握在个人手中，比如睡眠呼吸障碍、特定药物滥用，以及最具杀伤力的**超加工食品（Ultra-Processed Foods, UPF）**。博士指出，现代超加工食品精准击中了诱发活性氧（ROS）风暴的每一个死穴： - **果糖（Fructose）过量**：作为他长期警示的“致命甜味分子”，直接损伤肝脏与线粒体； - **Omega-3 脂肪酸严重匮乏**：缺乏来自深海鱼、优质禽蛋等维持脑结构与神经传导必需的健康油脂； - **膳食纤维被全面剥离**：丧失了抑制全身性及肠道炎症的核心屏障； - **工业乳化剂泛滥**：破坏肠道黏膜屏障，引爆肠漏与全身低度炎症； - **关键 B 族维生素缺失**：特别是维生素 B6、B12 和叶酸的缺乏，直接阻碍一碳代谢与细胞抗氧化防线。 卢斯蒂格博士强调，只要人们主动干预并清除这些饮食环境隐患，就能有效修复线粒体功能、提升 ATP 生成效率，从根本上阻断脑细胞的能量饥荒，避免神经元大范围退化凋亡。 ### [28:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1723s) 弹式热量计的骗局：为什么碳水化合物与卡路里不等于能量 当主持人谈到自己在断食或进行生酮饮食（Ketogenic diet）时大脑思维敏捷清晰，而一旦摄入大量高碳水化合物或糖类就会感到大脑仿佛“回火卡壳”（backfiring）、思维迟钝时，卢斯蒂格博士表示这完全符合生物化学规律。针对食品工业长期灌输的“碳水化合物就是纯粹能量”的说辞，博士驳斥道：“这绝非事实，过量碳水化合物在细胞层面实际上是在抑制能量的生成。” 为了彻底揭穿这一谎言，博士对比了**弹式热量计（Bomb Calorimeter）**与人体**线粒体（Mitochondria）**的本质差异： | 比较维度 | 弹式热量计（Bomb Calorimeter） | 人体细胞线粒体（Mitochondria） | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **工作原理** | 物理燃烧：将食物样本置入密封容器彻底引爆，完全转化为热能释放 | 生物转化：通过复杂的电子传递链，将化学能逐步转移并捕获生成 ATP | | **产出目标** | 仅测量释放的总热量（将 1 克水升高 1 摄氏度即为 1 卡路里） | 捕获化学能生成通用能量货币（ATP），同时产生废热维持体温 | | **能量转化效率** | 100% 将物质热值以热能形式记录（脂肪 9 kcal/g，蛋白质/碳水 4 kcal/g） | 转化率绝非 100%，其中 35%~40% 的能量以热量形式散失以维系体温 | | **受抑制效应** | 无法检测生物抑制：塑料或毒素燃烧同样产生物理卡路里 | 易受特定分子（如果糖、凝集素）毒害，直接瘫痪呼吸链并切断 ATP 产出 | 博士阐释，弹式热量计只是单纯的物理学测量工具，薯片包装袋上印着的“200 卡路里”不过代表它在仪器里燃烧放出的热量，却完全无法反映人体线粒体能否安全有效地将其转化为 ATP。如果某种物质在阻碍线粒体产生 ATP，那么它无论含有多少物理卡路里，都算不上真正的“食物”。 根据生物学定义，食物必须是“能够促进生物体生长（Growth）或燃烧供能（Burning）的底物”。然而生化证据表明，果糖既抑制线粒体的燃烧供能，又全方位抑制骨骼生长（包括皮质骨、骨小梁和松质骨的代谢）。博士直言，数据证明长期食用超加工食品的儿童身材往往更加矮小。一种既不能促进生长、又切断正常能量代谢的物质，在本质上绝非食物，而是彻头彻尾的“毒药”（poison）。 ### [32:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1975s) 超加工食品的五大原罪与食品工业的良心对话 卢斯蒂格博士痛陈，现代人日常饮食中有相当大一部分完全由这种“毒药”构成。真正的天然完整食物（real food）几乎不含这些有害物质，而超加工食品却系统性地充斥着**五大原罪**： - **糖分极度过载**：毒害并瘫痪细胞线粒体，切断 ATP 供应； - **膳食纤维完全缺失**：无法滋养肠道菌群，失去了阻断内毒素与平息炎症的护盾； - **Omega-3 脂肪酸极度匮乏**：缺乏构成脑神经突触与保障高效神经递质传递的核心脂质； - **大量滥用人工乳化剂**：乳化剥离肠道黏液保护层，导致肠壁通透性剧增并引发全身性慢性炎症； - **石油基人工色素与化学添加剂泛滥**：具有潜在的致突变性（mutagenic），加剧细胞氧化与 DNA 损伤。 这些致命缺陷使超加工食品与包括神经退行性疾病、各类精神心理疾病在内的现代慢性病建立了不可推卸的联系。不仅是添加糖，甚至连**无糖代糖（Diet Sweeteners）**同样会沿着活性氧（ROS）途径引发微血管与神经损伤，直接推高患失智症的风险。 在谈到糖业巨头对他的态度时，主持人笑称糖业肯定视他为眼中钉。卢斯蒂格博士幽默承认对方绝非自己的支持者，但他却一直怀着“渡人”的诚意。他透露，自己曾受邀前往佐治亚州亚特兰大，作为主题演讲嘉宾登上了第四届国际减糖峰会（International Sugar Reduction Summit）的讲台——这无异于“但以理走进了狮子坑”（Daniel in the lion's den）。博士在讲台上对台下的糖业巨头们直言：“我不是来当你们的敌人的，我是来做你们的良心的。”他冷静地指出，超加工食品在短期内不可能彻底消失，面对 2050 年全球需养活 100 亿人口的现实挑战，工业化食品供应体系仍有其存在逻辑；但他坚决要求食品制造业必须直面毒性本质，进行伤筋动骨的健康重构。 ### [35:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=2104s) 超加工食品的现实与“代谢矩阵”重构 Robert Lustig 博士坦言，要求全人类彻底回归原始天然饮食在现实中是不可能的——地球上根本没有足够的土地和海洋资源来满足这一需求。超加工食品（Ultra-processed food）已经深植于现代社会，“生米已成熟饭”。因此，核心问题不应是消灭它，而是：**我们能否改造超加工食品，使其变得健康？** 当前美国食品工业的做法恰恰相反，在疯狂制造致病食品。但在过去五年里，Lustig 博士与科威特大型食品企业 KDD（The Kuwaiti Danish Dairy Company）展开了一项无偿的科学合作。科威特面临着高达 18% 的糖尿病发病率和 80% 的肥胖率，该企业主动找到他，希望能成为解决问题的一方，研发在代谢层面上健康的加工食品。Lustig 组建了一个由五位科学家组成的顾问团队，历时三年对所有工艺、原材料供应商和产品进行了深入的生化分析，并于 2023 年在《营养前沿》（*Frontiers in Nutrition*）期刊上发表了“代谢矩阵”（Metabolic Matrix）原则。这一理论被凝练为九个英文单词（中文核心为三句话）：**保护肝脏、滋养肠道、支持大脑**（Protect the liver, feed the gut, support the brain）。任何食物只要满足这三点就是健康的，与它是否经过加工无关；反之，若三点都不满足，无论是否天然都是毒药。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 代谢矩阵三大核心原则 accDescr: 展示判断食物是否健康的代谢矩阵三原则，满足即健康，背离即毒药。 subgraph Matrix["代谢矩阵核心原则 (The Metabolic Matrix)"] L["保护肝脏<br/>(Protect the liver)"] G["滋养肠道<br/>(Feed the gut)"] B["支持大脑<br/>(Support the brain)"] end Matrix -->|"三者皆符合"| H["健康食品<br/>(无论是否属于超加工)"] Matrix -->|"三者皆不符"| P["有害毒素<br/>(无论是否属于天然)"] ``` 团队针对 KDD 旗下的 180 款产品进行了重构，目前已成功重新设计了 10%（18 款产品），并在科威特进行了人体临床测试，证实了其代谢益处，现已全面上架销售。面对主持人关于“去除让人成瘾的成分是否会导致销量下降”的疑虑，Lustig 透露，他们在改良产品上市时并未对公众大肆宣传，消费者在不知不觉中购买，而销量和利润毫无波动。这证明在不损害食品工业利润的前提下实现健康重构是完全可行的。 --- ### [39:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=2368s) 评价小罗伯特·肯尼迪：五大施政议程的异同 谈到被提名为美国卫生与公众服务部（HHS）部长的小罗伯特·肯尼迪（Robert F. Kennedy Jr., 简称 RFK Jr.），Lustig 透露自己曾先后四次被邀请加入该届政府班子，但每一次他都断然拒绝。他直言，自己的科学立场与肯尼迪的很多观点水火不容，“如果我进去，大概撑不过五秒钟就会被扫地出门”。 为了理清分歧，Lustig 将肯尼迪的核心公共卫生议题划分为五个维度进行逐一评析： - **食品改革（Food）**：完全赞同。肯尼迪至少促成了全美对超加工食品危害的公开讨论，Lustig 团队也希望能切入这一对话。 - **医药透明度（Pharma transparency）**：完全赞同。 - **环境化学品管制（Chemicals in the environment）**：完全赞同。 - **饮用水加氟（Water fluoridation）**：部分赞同，但存在严重的执行逻辑分歧。 - **疫苗（Vaccines）**：坚决反对肯尼迪的立场。 关于氟化物，Lustig 深入解释了背后的公共卫生逻辑。美国之所以在自来水中加氟，根源是食品中充斥着海量糖分导致严重的龋齿（Cavities）。全世界只有大约一半的国家给饮用水加氟，不加氟的国家通常饮食中糖分摄入较低。加氟能够将龋齿发病率降低约 30% 至 40%。然而，氟化物在过量时具有神经毒性：公共供水的安全浓度应维持在 0.3 到 0.9 ppm，但有时会超标飙升至 1.5 ppm，在此浓度下确实会显现神经毒性。肯尼迪主张废除水中加氟，但 Lustig 强调，如果不先通过全社会协同将食品中的“糖”彻底拿掉，就贸然停止加氟，全美将瞬间爆发灾难性的“激浪烂牙”（Mountain Dew mouth）——儿童拔牙、全身麻醉、牙源性脓毒症甚至威胁国家安全（如军人因牙疾失去战斗力）。因此，这必须是一场由公共卫生宣传主导、食品工业与医疗界紧密协同的系统工程，而绝非一刀切的简单废止。 --- ### [43:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=2592s) 疫苗的医学实证与肯尼迪的危险偏见 在第五个议题——疫苗上，Lustig 表达了最强烈的反对。他以儿科医生的从业经历强调，自己虽然不是免疫学家，但他亲手救治过目前儿科常规免疫疫苗针对的全部八种致命传染病：腮腺炎、麻疹、风疹、白喉、百日咳、破伤风、流感嗜血杆菌（Hib）以及脊髓灰质炎（小儿麻痹症）。他语气沉重地指出：“每当我在临床上接诊这些患儿时，无一例外全是因为没有接种疫苗；而在这些发病的孩子中，有 90% 的概率会死亡。” 肯尼迪曾声称仅凭肉眼观察就能看出一个人是否存在线粒体功能障碍，对此，身为线粒体专家的 Lustig 讽刺道：“连我都看不出来。”他严厉指出，肯尼迪全盘排斥疫苗的态度在医学界完全没有立足之地，而人类凭借疫苗技术在过去 50 年中拯救了 1.54 亿条生命；他绝不能成为导致数千名儿童死于麻疹的悲剧推手。 主持人也结合自身经历谈到，自己在非洲成长时曾患严重疟疾并产生幻觉入院，而接种过相关防护疫苗的兄弟则幸免于难。两人均指出，任何药物和疫苗都有潜在副作用，但从宏观历史来看，疫苗消灭疾病的净收益是无可争议的。在虚假信息满天飞的当下，公众极易在疾病暴发时做出盲目决定；即便像肯尼迪这样持反疫苗立场的人，在近期得克萨斯州暴发严重麻疹疫情时，最终也不得不支持联邦政府调拨 MMR（麻疹、腮腺炎、风疹）三联疫苗进行干预。话题最后，Lustig 抛出一个重磅内幕：他在 2024 年 12 月曾与肯尼迪进行过长达半小时的闭门一对一通话。 ### [47:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=2823s) 与小罗伯特·肯尼迪的半小时会面：法律先例与医学概率的碰撞 特朗普赢得大选后，小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪（Robert F. Kennedy Jr.，简称 RFK Jr.）开始着手组建自己的卫生团队，罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士（Dr. Robert Lustig）受邀加入并与他进行了一场长达半小时的单独对话。卢斯蒂格向听众还原了那场谈话的真实细节：双方原本计划探讨食品与营养政策，但肯尼迪完全避开了食品话题，通篇只谈论疫苗，且核心观点紧扣两条主线。第一条主线是文献依据，肯尼迪信誓旦旦地列举了三篇声称“疫苗弊大于利、给新生儿接种是不合常理”的医学论文。卢斯蒂格当场记录下来，事后查证发现这三篇论文的字面结论确实如此，但他指出：“这三篇论文确实是这么写的，但医学文献库里还有五万篇论文得出了完全相反的结论。” 第二条主线则建立在法律侵权逻辑之上。肯尼迪描述了一个场景：一位母亲生下一个健康的新生儿，在皮下注射了一剂疫苗后，婴儿变得不再健康。在法律定义上，从注意义务（duty）、过失（negligence）到损害后果（damages），这完全构成了法定侵权行为（tort）。面对侵权，常规的法律救济途径是提起诉讼，但肯尼迪随即指出，由于美国《1986年国家儿童疫苗伤害法案》（National Childhood Vaccine Injury Act of 1986）确立的免责条款，这位母亲根本无法起诉疫苗生产商，只能承受孩子受损却求告无门的结局，肯尼迪坚称这“违背了宪法”。 卢斯蒂格对这半小时对话给出了极为尖锐的剖析：肯尼迪所陈述的每一件事“在事实层面都是完全真实的，但却毫无意义（absolutely true and irrelevant）”，这本质上是极端的确认偏误（confirmation bias）。肯尼迪是一名律师，律师的底层世界观基于先例（precedent）与绝对风险（risk），在他们的逻辑中往往不存在收益，只有非黑即白的风险；而卢斯蒂格是一名医生，医生的认知基于概率（probability）与风险收益比（risk-benefit ratio）。卢斯蒂格坦言，由于这种思维维度的根本冲突，如果自己真的进入那个团队，恐怕连五秒钟都坚持不下去。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 认知框架对比：律师思维与医生思维 accDescr: 对比小罗伯特·肯尼迪的律师风险视角与卢斯蒂格博士的医学概率视角 subgraph RFK["小罗伯特·肯尼迪（律师视角）"] A["法律先例与个案判定"] --> B["绝对风险导向"] B --> C["聚焦个体侵权与免责壁垒"] end subgraph Lustig["卢斯蒂格博士（医生视角）"] D["科学共识与统计概率"] --> E["风险收益比评估"] E --> F["权衡群体利弊与总体健康"] end ``` ### [49:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=2988s) 公共卫生视角与个体伤害：概率思维的权衡 史蒂文·巴特利特对卢斯蒂格的观点深表赞同，并指出普通人的日常生活本质上就是一系列概率计算。比如清晨乘坐出租车出行，每个人心中都清楚发生车祸的统计概率，但权衡潜在收益后依然会选择坐进车内。然而在疫苗议题上，讨论已经被高度政治化并割裂为非黑即白的两个阵营：一派持有类似肯尼迪的高度怀疑论；另一派则是绝大多数科学界人士的共识，他们承认副作用的存在，但坚持从净收益来看疫苗对人类社会具有极其显著的正向价值。 卢斯蒂格进一步辨析了观察维度的差异。如果从宏观公共卫生的视角出发，疫苗所带来的群体保护与健康收益远远大于其潜在危害；但如果从纯粹的极端个体视角切入，当一个人本身没有患病，却在接种后不幸遭遇了疫苗不良反应（vaccine injury），当事人便会感到自己遭受了实打实的法定侵权。理解这两者的鸿沟，关键在于明确决策所依托的是全盘考量的科学概率，还是放大局部的法律风险。 ### [51:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3103s) 算法信息茧房与科学共识：如何获取可靠的健康资讯 史蒂文借此话题向广大受众发出了郑重的健康信息获取建议：一旦未来再次暴发某种类似大流行病的病毒危机，公众必须极其谨慎地筛选信息来源，并且明确表态“可靠信源绝不应该包括播客（即便是本档播客），更不能包括社交媒体平台”。作为替代，他推荐公众使用类似 Consensus 这样的学术搜索引擎工具。用户只要在其中输入健康或疫苗疑问，系统便会自动检索海量同行评审文献，并直观呈现科学界的研究共识比例。史蒂文分享了自己近期的使用体验：对于某个特定健康命题，工具显示出70%的研究支持积极效应、25%显示中立、仅有5%显示负面或结论未定。他认为，这种基于广泛学术共识的方式，远比听信单个播客单口相声或推特碎片信息要理性得多。 史蒂文直截了当地提醒听众，所有人此刻都身处高度定制化的“算法回音室（algorithmic echo chamber）”之中。社交平台算法的核心逻辑是向用户推送能引发恐惧、焦虑和情绪激化的内容。两年前他曾与最好的朋友互换推特信息流，结果大为震惊：不仅足球偏好完全不同（利物浦与曼联的区隔），推送给对方的资讯认知世界也彻底大相径庭。卢斯蒂格补充道，社交平台的算法机制单纯是为了“维持用户留存与参与度”，根本不是为了“传递准确信息”。算法与人类天生的确认偏误相互结合，导致人们只愿意寻找符合自身预设偏见的信息。史蒂文预言，每当播客讨论疫苗等极化话题时，评论区总会立刻演变成两派人马为了证明各自预设立场而爆发的口水战。他感叹保持开放包容的心态在当下极其困难；当有记者评价他“非政治化（apolitical）”时，他将其视作最高赞誉，并警示道：“当你发现自己的观点与某个群体的重合度高达99%时，你就知道自己已经深陷于某种邪教（cult）之中了，因为在严谨的逻辑下这种情况根本不该发生。” - 社交平台信息流完全依据情绪黏性（尤其是恐惧与焦虑）分发内容，并不承担事实核查义务。 - 确认偏误导致公众在争议性健康议题上只吸收符合自身既有偏好的一面之词，并在社交评论区形成阵营攻防。 - 面对复杂健康抉择，依托同行评审文献库的聚合工具（如 Consensus）能更客观地展现整体研究结论的分布比例。 ### [55:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3314s) 赞助商插播：Pipedrive 销售管道管理系统 史蒂文在节目中插播了赞助商 Pipedrive 的商业洞察。他谈到很多创业者和企业管理者往往误将销售不畅归咎为销售人员的业务能力问题，但究其根本，症结通常出在“缺乏销售管线的可视性（visibility）”。当管理者无法清晰掌握管线全貌、不了解每个销售线索推进到哪一步、哪些交易陷入停滞、哪些仍在运转时，企业就失去了改进流程和敲定订单的基础。 史蒂文介绍，Pipedrive 是专为中小企业设计的 CRM 工具，它并非死板的联系人通讯录，而是一套端到端的全流程动态可视系统，能够清晰标示当前活跃业务、延误环节以及团队下一步的具体行动项。数据显示，使用 Pipedrive 的团队在成交率上平均比未使用的团队高出三倍。作为首款由销售人员专为销售人员量身定制的 CRM 系统，全球已有超过10万家企业（包括史蒂文自己的团队）深度依赖它来提升决策效率。 ### [56:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3376s) 告别成瘾的第一步：找回自我与多巴胺快感的替代 节目重新回到针对普通个体的深度健康建议。史蒂文设定了一个典型受众画像——以“珍妮和戴夫（Jenny & Dave）”为代表的普通美国人：他们耳中听着播客，心里明白糖分和超加工食品有害健康，但身体依旧在与脂肪堆积和代谢紊乱缠斗，甚至已经踏上了通往阿尔茨海默病、痴呆症或癌症等慢性疾病的危险轨道。史蒂文发问：面对无数个身陷其中的普通人，改变生活的切入点究竟在哪里？ 卢斯蒂格给出的回答出人意料地具有哲学与心理学深度。他指出，面对珍妮和戴夫，医生需要问出的第一句话并不是饮食计划，而是：“你是谁？你知道自己是谁吗？”因为如果一个人对自己缺乏清晰的自我认知、无法在自己的皮囊下感到自在坦然（comfortable in their own skin），任何外在的健康建议都将沦为徒劳。现代人之所以对超加工食品产生狂热依赖，根本原因在于这些工业食品能够为他们提供即时的多巴胺刺激；在许多人麻木或痛苦的生活中，这口食物甚至是他们唯一能够勉强获取快感（pleasure）的来源。卢斯蒂格直言：“如果超加工食品是他们在整个人生里唯一能感受到的快感，你永远也不可能治好他们的饮食成瘾，因为那是他们赖以支撑的全部。”因此，戒断代谢毒害的关键绝非单纯的节食，而是必须在个体层面彻底重新梳理人生的优先级，寻找真正健康、持久的意义来填补快感的空白。 ### [57:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3473s) 人生底层排序与能量枯竭的“无力之脑” Robert Lustig 博士向观众抛出了一个极其尖锐的核心问题：对你而言，究竟什么是第一位的，什么是第二位的？首要之物永远是爱、人际关系与心理安全感；而次要之物则是快感、美食与药物刺激。如果你的人生彻底丧失了爱、稳固的关系与内心的稳定，那么这世上没有任何数量的食物或成瘾药物能够弥补这个黑洞。在真正、诚实地认清并回答“我是谁、什么对我最重要”之前，任何成瘾的恶性循环都无法被彻底打破。 为了更具象地展现现代人的困境，主持人 Steven Bartlett 现场扮演起普通都市白领角色 Jenny 和 Dave：年满 30 岁，做着一份谈不上喜欢也谈不上讨厌的平淡工作，单身独居在都市的“火柴盒”公寓里，每天像在生活这台巨大的跑步机上被动机械地运转。最致命的是慢性压力——每当点亮手机屏幕，涌入的信息、工作邮件、纷繁的人际纠纷，以及日渐衰老的父母的健康恶化，无时无刻不在消耗着心神。 这种长期的身心超负荷正在以极其恐怖的速度摧毁大脑中的 ATP（三磷酸腺苷）能量储备。Lustig 博士直言，现代人普遍面临能量衰竭的严峻基底：长期摄入垃圾食品导致的线粒体功能障碍、呼吸受污染的空气，以及不可忽视的微塑料沉降。他指出，甚至在此时此刻，Steven 脑部重量的二百分之一已经是微塑料了；而饮食更为恶劣的 Jenny 和 Dave 脑中的微塑料只会更多。当这层脆弱又充满毒素的生理底色叠加上无休止的压力，神经元根本无法正常响应，线粒体产能瘫痪，重塑健康与认知必须首先解决压力与能量代谢的根源问题。 - **核心层级划分**：第一位（Primary）是爱与人际联结；第二位（Secondary）是快感、食物与药物。用次级快感去填补首要情感的缺失注定会走向成瘾。 - **微塑料脑沉积**：脑组织中有高达 1/200 的物质已转化为微塑料。 - **代谢困境三联征**：超加工饮食（线粒体功能障碍）+ 环境污染/微塑料 + 慢性高压，共同榨干了大脑产生 ATP 的能力。 --- ### [01:00:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3604s) 脑部发炎无法去爱：催产素受体与表观遗传的创伤链 在探讨压力与疗愈时，Lustig 博士分享了他与美国前卫生局长 Vivek Murthy 博士在伦敦的一段深度对话。Murthy 博士一直大力倡导“用爱来克服全社会的孤立与苦难”，认为爱是解决现代社会精神危机的解药。然而 Lustig 博士却直接给出了一个残酷的神经生物学真相：“如果你的大脑在发炎，你根本无法去爱。”（"You can't love if your brain is inflamed."）无论是爱自己，还是爱身边的任何人，发炎的大脑都丧失了这一生物学能力。几个星期后，Murthy 特地发来邮件，表示认真思考了这番话，并正在研读 Lustig 博士的著作以探寻生理机制。 发炎的大脑是由超加工食品、活性氧（ROS）自由基风暴与慢性高皮质醇（Cortisol）联手造成的。其背后的分子机制格外清晰：皮质醇的长期超标会直接导致催产素受体（Oxytocin Receptor）发生 DNA 甲基化。催产素作为掌控人类安全感、繁衍、信任与深层连接的“爱的荷尔蒙”，一旦其受体被甲基化锁死，个体便彻底丧失了体会安全感的能力；与此同时，负责内心安宁（Eudaimonia）与满足感的核心神经递质——血清素（Serotonin）的缺乏，使得大脑杏仁核（Amygdala）的慢性炎症无法被有效抑制。大脑就像一个无法执行精准战术打击的劣质控球后卫，随时处于全盘过载的应激失控状态。 这种生理印记甚至具有跨代的表观遗传效应（Epigenetic）。孕期母亲若长期处于高皮质醇压力状态下，腹中胎儿的催产素受体在出生前就已被迫甲基化改造。这意味着孩子出生后，其神经系统与生俱来就缺乏对安全感的感知能力，极易出现后天社交联结障碍。即便成年之后能够通过艰难的生理与代谢干预来逆转，也需要极大的努力并以恢复健康的代谢底质为绝对前提。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 慢性压力导致大脑发炎并丧失爱能力的生理机制 accDescr: 展示超加工饮食与压力如何通过皮质醇甲基化催产素受体并抑制血清素，最终阻断爱与安全感 subgraph MetabolicStress["代谢与环境负荷"] UPF["超加工食品 / 自由基 (ROS)"] Stress["长期高压 / 心理应激"] end subgraph BiochemicalCascade["神经生物学改变"] Cortisol["皮质醇长期居高不下"] NeuroInflam["大脑杏仁核持续发炎"] Methylation["催产素受体甲基化 (无法识别安全感)"] LowSerotonin["血清素抑制失效 (失去安宁感)"] end subgraph Outcome["行为与情感表现"] NoLove["丧失爱自己与他人的能力"] ViciousCycle["深陷恐惧应激与社交退缩"] end UPF --> Cortisol Stress --> Cortisol Cortisol --> Methylation Cortisol --> NeuroInflam NeuroInflam --> LowSerotonin Methylation --> NoLove LowSerotonin --> NoLove NoLove --> ViciousCycle ``` --- ### [01:03:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3835s) 孤独与独处的神经学分水岭：多巴胺、血清素与迷走神经 在现代都市中，大量人群深陷在独居的“火柴盒”公寓里，平均能倾诉危机的知心朋友数量从昔日的数人骤降至一人甚至归零。孤立无援会触发进化层面留下的杏仁核警戒反应——由于脱离了部落庇护，身体被迫维持高度戒备，导致睡眠质量断崖式下跌、压力激增并对外部充满敌意，从而演变成“越孤独越焦虑，越焦虑越孤独”的恶性循环。 针对这一现代流行病，Lustig 博士抛出了一个经典的提问：“孤独（Loneliness）与独处（Solitude）的本质区别究竟是什么？”两者的外在物理表现都是脱离人群的“独自一人”，而生物化学的分水岭在于血清素（Serotonin）。当体内血清素充足时，即便一个人呆着，也是一种享受自我的“独处”（Solitude）；而当血清素匮乏时，即便身处熙熙攘攘的喧嚣派对之中，内心依然会感到万分寂寞与荒凉。 从分子源头来看，合成血清素的前体是色氨酸（Tryptophan），它是人类所有摄入蛋白质中最为稀缺的氨基酸。色氨酸主要天然存在于鸡蛋、鸡肉和鱼类中，在超加工食品中近乎绝迹。长期依赖高度加工食品的人群，必然面临色氨酸与血清素的重度匮乏，表现为暴躁、易怒与挥之不去的孤独感。 | 维度 | 多巴胺（Dopamine） | 血清素（Serotonin） | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **神经元作用** | 兴奋性递质，促使下一个神经元持续放电 | 抑制性递质，抑制下一个神经元过度兴奋 | | **心理体验** | 追求快感（Pleasure）：“这很爽，我还要更多” | 内心安宁（Contentment）：“这很充实，我已心满意足” | | **饮食相关性** | 超加工食品与糖类瞬间激发峰值与渴望 | 依赖天然蛋白质中的稀有色氨酸（鸡蛋、鸡肉、鱼） | | **情绪后果** | 耐受、成瘾、渴望失控 | 饱足、情绪平静、抵御孤独 | 人体中约有 90% 的血清素是在肠道中合成的。但肠道产生的神经信号要传达到大脑，必须依靠完全健康的传入迷走神经（Afferent Vagus Nerve）。只有当肠脑轴通道畅通无阻，肠道合成的神经递质才能精准将信号转导至脑中神经回路。这种由肠道血清素借由迷走神经向上传递的信息流动，正是我们在生活中所体验到的“直觉”（Intuition）与所谓的“直觉感受”（Gut feeling）。超加工食品与肠脑轴阻断不仅摧毁了代谢，更直接剥夺了现代人感受安宁与倾听直觉的生理机能。 ### [01:08:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4095s) 迷走神经健康与电子刺激器的真相 讨论从肠道与大脑的连接纽带——迷走神经（Vagus nerve）展开。当主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及如何保持迷走神经健康时，罗伯特·卢斯蒂格医生（Dr. Robert Lustig）给出的答案极其纯粹直接：“吃真正的食物（Eat real food）。”超加工食品引发的肠道慢性炎症，正是摧毁迷走神经活性的罪魁祸首。针对市面上被铺天盖地营销的“迷走神经刺激器”，卢斯蒂格医生直言，这类设备确实在医学上有明确疗效，但仅限于辅助治疗癫痫发作（Seizure control），因为迷走神经能够上下双向传导神经信号来抑制异常放电；然而截至目前，没有任何科学证据表明它能直接重塑人类的情绪机制。 巴特利特随后引用了相关文献支持这一论断：荟萃分析和长期随访表明，迷走神经刺激可使癫痫发作减少 30% 至 50%，但在抗抑郁方面的效果微乎其微（仅比安慰剂高出约 15% 到 25%），对于焦虑症和注意力提升的研究更是样本小、证据级别低下。巴特利特感叹道，在主持这档播客的过程中，他学到的最深刻道理就是“人生几乎没有捷径”；凡是看起来像万能灵药的仪器、装置或快速通道，要么是骗局，要么没效果，要么潜藏着巨大的隐性代价。正如那句老话所言，“天底下没有免费的午餐”，走硬路、走慢路往往才是最快的方式。 - **迷走神经刺激器（VNS）的临床证据**：在癫痫控制上展现出 30%–50% 的发作削减率；但在抑郁症改善上仅有 15%–25% 的微弱响应，对缓解压力与焦虑依然缺乏高质量实证支持。 - **健康的核心根基**：摆脱超加工食品、消解肠道炎症，是让迷走神经维持生理弹性的根本途径，依赖外接设备无法绕过饮食问题。 --- ### [01:10:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4248s) 卢斯蒂格医生的“三顶帽子”：深度拆解 Ozempic 等 GLP-1 药物 谈及试图绕过健康规律走捷径的典型代表，两人自然切入了当下席卷全球的减重降糖神药——GLP-1 受体激动剂（如 Ozempic、司美格鲁肽 Semaglutide）。面对公众对这类药物的狂热追捧，卢斯蒂格医生表示自己必须戴上“三顶不同的帽子”来客观剖析： 首先是**临床医生帽子**。他坦言很高兴这些药物问世：“对于那些 BMI 高达 40 到 45、试遍所有办法均告无效、减重已关乎生死的危重患者来说，这确实是救命的工具。” 紧接着，卢斯蒂格换上第二顶**科学家帽子**，深入药物在体内的两大作用靶点及潜在危害： 1. **中枢神经系统（伏隔核 Nucleus Accumbens）**：GLP-1 作用于多巴胺奖励中枢，直接熄灭个体的快感渴望。这让人联想起 2006 年在欧盟批准上市的抗大麻素受体拮抗剂利莫那班（Rimonabant，商品名 Acomplia）。利莫那班同样是通过强行压制奖赏中枢来消灭食欲，但上市仅两个月内就发生了 21 起自杀事件，随即被紧急撤市——因为“一旦你抹杀了奖赏，人类早晨根本找不到起床的理由”。虽然 GLP-1 药物目前尚未显现明确的自杀信号，但临床上监测到了极其显著的抑郁风险。 2. **胃肠道（消化系统）**：GLP-1 会显著延迟胃排空，让食物停留在胃里动弹不得。饱腹感的本质实际上是胃瘫样状态，由此引发恶心、呕吐、胰腺炎以及严重的胃轻瘫（Gastroparesis）。在所有使用 GLP-1 受体激动剂的人群中，有 3.4% 会患上胃轻瘫；更致命的是，停药后这种胃动力丧失往往不可逆，目前诺和诺德（Novo Nordisk）正因此面临多起法律诉讼。 卢斯蒂格更指出了体重流失背后的残酷生理机制：患者减掉的体重中，整整一半是肌肉，一半是脂肪。肌肉流失导致的肌少症（Sarcopenia）是早逝的高危生物标志，而同比例消耗肌肉和脂肪的唯一生理状态正是“饥饿（Starvation）”。不仅如此，GLP-1 药物在临床上仅对大约三分之一的人有良好反应，三分之二的人其实并不敏感，且一旦停药，体重立刻反弹并超过初始水平，纯粹是治标不治本的创可贴。 最后，卢斯蒂格换上第三顶**公共卫生倡导者帽子**，算了一笔震撼的经济账： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: GLP-1 普及方案与控糖政策方案的经济与健康效益对比 accDescr: 对比全美推广 GLP-1 与执行 12 茶匙添加糖限制在减重比例与财政开支上的巨大反差 subgraph GLP1["方案 A：推广 GLP-1 药物"] A1["平均减重：约 16%"] A2["全美符合条件者全覆盖"] A3["新增医疗支出：2.1 万亿美元/年<br/>(现有医疗开支暴增 50%)"] A4["隐患：肌肉流失、胃轻瘫、抑郁反弹"] A1 --- A2 --- A3 --- A4 end subgraph SugarCap["方案 B：限制添加糖摄入"] B1["平均减重：约 29%"] B2["限制在 USDA 建议的 12 茶匙/天以内"] B3["节省医疗开支：3.0 万亿美元"] B4["优势：无药物副作用、标本兼治"] B1 --- B2 --- B3 --- B4 end GLP1 -.->|"二者产生 5.1 万亿美元的巨额财政差距"| SugarCap ``` - **全美药物成本危机**：GLP-1 带来的平均减重约为 16%。若全美符合适应症的人群都用上该药，每年将给医疗体系增加 2.1 万亿美元的支出。美国当前总体医疗支出为 4.1 万亿美元，这意味着保费或财政支出将直接激增 50%，而美国联邦医疗保险（Medicare）原本就预计在 2029 年破产。 - **控糖政策的降维打击**：如果仅仅通过立法与公共政策，把美国日常饮食中的添加糖限制在 USDA 推荐的每天不超过 12 茶匙（12 teaspoons），人群平均体重降幅可达 29%，并为医疗系统节省 3.0 万亿美元开销。两者之间存在 5.1 万亿美元的惊人差距，且后者带来了双倍的减重成效与零副作用。 --- ### [01:15:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4555s) 多巴胺抑制的两面性：戒断成瘾还是夺走生命动力？ 巴特利特补充了一项近期动物实验成果：在实验室中，司美格鲁肽等药物让大鼠在治疗期间的可卡因自我给药行为减少了大约 30%；而在经历一段时间的禁断后，大鼠寻觅毒品的动机更是骤降了 62%。这一现象印证了 GLP-1 药物在脑内奖赏回路上发挥的作用，说明它能让成瘾性生物表现出主动减少摄入的行为。 卢斯蒂格解释道，大鼠大脑中的伏隔核以及腹侧被盖区（Ventral Tegmental Area, VTA）均密集分布着 GLP-1 受体，他此前受邀在加利福尼亚成瘾医学学会（CSAM）发表演讲时便详述过该机制。减少摄入的原因可能分为两层：一方面，由于胃蠕动近乎瘫痪，动物在极度胀满难受的状态下自然丧失了再吃再吸的意愿；但另一方面，在酒精摄入的实验中（酒精为液体，胃排空机制不同），GLP-1 依然能强效遏制酗酒冲动。这无可辩驳地证明，药物确实在中枢系统直接钝化了多巴胺的释放与奖赏感知。 但这随即引出了细思极恐的代价。巴特利特敏锐地发问：“既然多巴胺掌控着欲望与驱动力，药物削弱了大鼠寻找可卡因的动力，那是否也意味着，我整个人作为个体的核心动力都会被一同抹杀？”卢斯蒂格毫不犹豫地证实了这一担忧：“没错（Yes）。”巴特利特苦笑道：“啊，那可真不是什么好事。”彻底抹除欲望虽然能在短时间内斩断恶瘾，却也把人类热爱生活、积极行动的内在火苗一并浇灭了。 ### [01:18:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4709s) 典型美国夫妇的减肥困境与超市采购法则 对话回到了前面设想的代表典型美国普通人的夫妇“珍妮与戴夫”（Jenny and Dave）。两人身上都带着一些多余的体重，在探讨了血清素、人际联结、爱与压力对缓解成瘾的深远影响后，史蒂文询问，除了加入跑步俱乐部、改善社交关系这些下游举措之外，他们若想切实减掉体脂，还需要了解哪些核心认知。罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士（Dr. Robert Lustig）直截了当地指出第一铁律：“超加工食品具有致肥性（obesogenic）。”现实的残酷之处在于，如果珍妮和戴夫正处于生活、经济以及时间的多重压力之下，要让他们主动远离超加工食品极其困难；但如果饮食结构一成不变，身体和体重绝无好转的可能。 面对这种知易行难的现实，卢斯蒂格博士给出了几条极其接地气且易执行的采购法则： * **切忌空腹购物**：“饥饿时踏入超市，一切防线都会瞬间崩溃。”因为饥肠辘辘的大脑会直接屈服于垃圾食品的诱惑，而超市货架两端最显眼的端架（end caps）摆放的全是这类高利润、高糖的诱饵。 * **严格在超市外围区域选购**：只要一拐进超市中间的通道，你就彻底“脱轨”了。中间货架是超加工食品潜伏的重灾区，美国普通超市里高达 73% 的货架商品在代谢层面上无异于“毒药”。真正的天然原生态食物（新鲜果蔬、肉类、冷藏乳制品）几乎全部陈列在超市的外围边缘。 * **将配料表视为“警示标签”**：卢斯蒂格博士并不苛求普通人去研读复杂的营养成分表，但他提出了一条极简判定法则：“只要一种食品印有标签，你就该把它看作警告标签；如果糖类排在前三位成分之中，它就是甜点。”按照这个标准，市面上看似健康养生的“中式鸡肉沙拉”本质上就是一份高糖甜点。 --- ### [01:21:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4909s) 糖分驱动癌症的生化机制与年轻化危机 当史蒂文提到自己偶然拿起朋友的一罐可口可乐，发现里面含有整整 39 克糖时，卢斯蒂格博士指出，正是这种惊人的含糖量直接引爆了当下的全球脂肪肝大流行。对话随即深入到糖与恶性肿瘤之间密不可分的代谢关联。卢斯蒂格博士从细胞生物学角度，层层拆解了高糖饮食直接喂养并诱发癌症的具体分子机制： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 糖分促进癌症增殖与代谢重编程的机制 accDescr: 展示高糖、高果糖摄入如何通过胰岛素、线粒体损伤及特异性酶促进癌细胞生长分裂。 subgraph INTAKE["高糖与果糖摄入"] A["高糖/高果糖饮食"] end subgraph PATHWAYS["代谢异常级联反应"] B["胰岛素激增<br/>（强促生长因子）"] C["线粒体功能障碍"] D["促进戊糖磷酸途径、<br/>Randle循环与从头脂质合成"] end subgraph CANCER["癌细胞增殖"] E["向细胞核传递信号：<br/>启动快速分裂周期"] F["胰腺癌特异性转酮醇酶：<br/>在癌细胞内直接将果糖转化为葡萄糖"] G["恶性肿瘤快速增殖与转移"] end A --> B A --> C B --> D C --> E A --> F D --> G E --> G F --> G ``` * **胰岛素的强促生长效应**：任何导致胰岛素飙升的食物都会显著推高患癌风险，因为胰岛素本身就是一种强效的促有丝分裂生长因子。 * **代谢通路被癌细胞劫持**：高糖引发的线粒体功能障碍，会激活戊糖磷酸途径（pentose phosphate shunt）、兰德尔循环（Randle cycle）以及从头脂质合成（de novo lipogenesis），这些生化途径正是癌细胞分裂增殖所必需的原料工厂，相当于直接在“给癌症喂食”。 * **特定癌症的特异性利用**：某些恶性肿瘤（尤其是胰腺癌）体内高表达一种名为转酮醇酶（transketolase）的酶，它能特异性地在癌细胞内部将果糖转化为葡萄糖。令人啼笑皆非又触目惊心的是，现代医疗体系常给极度消瘦的癌症晚期患者开具高热量营养补充剂（如 Ensure 安素），其核心成分几乎就是纯果糖，实质上是在定向加速滋养体内的癌细胞。 * **线粒体损伤与细胞去分化**：当果糖破坏了线粒体氧化功能，细胞便会启动倒退机制进入无限制分裂状态——因为高速分裂的细胞（如胚胎细胞、厌氧菌或癌细胞）通常不依赖完善的线粒体呼吸，而是靠快速糖酵解维持生长。 临床数据血淋淋地印证了生化理论。结直肠癌的发病年龄正在经历惊人的年轻化巨变：过去患者的平均年龄普遍在 50 至 55 岁之间，而如今临床上频繁接诊到仅 30 多岁甚至 40 岁出头的晚期肠癌患者，这一严峻危机的头号元凶正是无处不在的高糖与超加工食品。 --- ### [01:24:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5079s) 制度性投毒：美国食品救济券（SNAP）与体制博弈 对于珍妮和戴夫而言，单凭个人意志力几乎不可能战胜体内的糖瘾，因为整个食品工业的商业体系已经将他们团团包围，阻断了他们获取真正健康食物的途径。卢斯蒂格博士将话题引向了政策层面的深层腐败与结构性不公，情绪激动地谈到了美国的补充营养援助计划（SNAP，即众所周知的食品救济券制度）。 卢斯蒂格博士曾在去年亲自前往美国国会众议院拨款委员会（House Appropriations Committee）作证，力陈必须将含糖汽水移出 SNAP 救济名录。苏打水是全美致病性最强的液体垃圾，却极其荒唐地成为了低收入群体使用 SNAP 代金券购买量最大的单品之一。卢斯蒂格博士愤怒地强调：“如果人们想自掏腰包买汽水喝，那是他们的个人自由；但我们绝不能动用联邦政府的财政补贴，去为穷人的慢性自杀买单！” 他在国会提出的改革方案极具建设性：将取消 SNAP 汽水补贴所节省下来的庞大财政资金专款专用，全部用于提升弱势群体的实际营养水平——采购真正的新鲜蔬菜、膳食补充剂、高纤维食品和优质纯净饮用水。然而，政客们对科学建议置若罔闻。保守派阵营意图全盘削减或彻底摧毁 SNAP 项目；即便部分人赞成剥离汽水，也仅仅是想把省下来的预算重新收回国库中饱私囊，根本无意改善穷人的营养健康。这种政策制定逻辑完全背离了公共卫生的初衷。 --- ### [01:28:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5292s) 大众最常问的营养迷思：“果汁健康吗？” 在一段关于创业工具平台（Stan Store）的赞助口播结束后，史蒂文向卢斯蒂格博士提出了一个耐人寻味的问题：在多年出版畅销书、做客播客并向公众科普代谢健康的生涯中，收到成千上万读者的来信与邮件里，被问到频率最高、最典型的问题究竟是什么？ 卢斯蒂格博士没有丝毫犹豫，脱口给出了一个令史蒂文大感意外的简短答案： > “果汁到底健康吗？”（"Is juice healthy?"） 面对史蒂文难以置信的追问，博士严肃地确认，这个在大众认知中长期被严重粉饰为“营养健康”的饮品，正是大众最普遍、最根深蒂固的代谢认知盲区。 ### [01:28:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5315s) 水果、果汁与奶昔的真相：膳食纤维的决定性作用 人们最常问的问题之一就是：“既然糖不好，那果汁难道不健康吗？”针对这一疑问，罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士（Dr. Robert Lustig）斩钉截铁地回答：“果汁绝不健康，只有完整的水果才健康。”两者的本质区别唯有两字——纤维（Fiber）。完整水果中包含丰富的膳食纤维，这层物理屏障能够显著减缓小肠吸收单糖进入血液的速度。吸收速度一旦放缓，机体引起的胰岛素和血糖峰值反应就会大幅下降，从而从根本上保护肝脏免受高负荷糖毒性的冲击。更重要的是，由于前端吸收被延缓，这些未消化的糖类物质和纤维能够顺利到达肠道远端，成为肠道微生物菌群的养料。肠道菌群发酵这些物质后会产生短链脂肪酸（SCFAs），带来抗炎、预防阿尔茨海默病等全身性的代谢益处；同时不溶性纤维在结肠内壁如同“刷子”一样清除异常脱落物，降低结肠癌风险。然而，一旦把水果榨成果汁，人们就把最宝贵的纤维直接扔进了垃圾桶，剩下的仅仅是一杯高浓度糖水。 很多人退一步提问：如果用破壁机（例如 Breville、Vitamix 或 NutriBullet）打果汁，把果肉残渣全部保留在冰沙（Smoothie）里喝下去，是否就健康了？卢斯蒂格博士解释说，这种做法同样无济于事。高速旋转的刀刃会将长链纤维彻底粉碎成细微碎末（smithereens），破坏了天然形成的网状结构（lattice work）。失去网格状屏障后，纤维便无法在肠道内形成有效物理隔离，果糖和葡萄糖进入血液以及直冲肝脏的速度依然与喝纯果汁毫无二致。因此，将水果打成泥或冰沙并不能解决代谢负荷的问题，“直接吃完整水果，千万别喝果汁”是不可替代的铁律。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 水果纤维对代谢的影响机制 accDescr: 对比完整水果与果汁或打碎冰沙在肠道吸收速度及对肝脏和菌群的不同影响 subgraph Fruit["完整水果 (含完整纤维)"] F1["咀嚼完整水果"] --> F2["形成天然纤维网架"] F2 --> F3["延缓小肠糖分吸收"] F3 --> F4["钝化血糖与胰岛素峰值，保护肝脏"] F3 --> F5["未吸收营养进入大肠"] F5 --> F6["滋养肠道菌群并生成短链脂肪酸 (抗炎/护脑)"] F5 --> F7["机械摩擦清理结肠上皮细胞"] end subgraph Juice["果汁 / 破壁机打碎冰沙"] J1["滤除纤维或刀片粉碎纤维结构"] --> J2["失去物理阻隔网架"] J2 --> J3["小肠急速吸收大量游离果糖与葡萄糖"] J3 --> J4["引发强烈血糖与胰岛素浪涌"] J4 --> J5["冲击肝脏诱发脂肪堆积与代谢紊乱"] end ``` ### [01:30:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5435s) 读者感人的逆转案例与罗伯特的使命感 斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）随后展示了上一期播客评论区里几条极具代表性、改变人生的读者留言，以呈现卢斯蒂格博士理论在真实世界产生的惊人影响： - 来自英国 59 岁的 Stuart J 留言称，3 年前被医生诊断为糖尿病前期后接触到了卢斯蒂格的理论，经过严格实践，如今所有血液化验指标完全恢复正常，整个人容光焕发。他直言“这个男人应该登上全世界的电视屏幕，但食品工业却千方百计想让他闭嘴”。 - 另一位读者的朋友被查出前列腺癌四期，医生预估只剩一年寿命。在严格执行生酮饮食（Keto Diet）、轻断食（间歇性禁食）和规律散步两年后，癌症彻底进入缓解期（remission），肿瘤完全消失。 - 一位同时饱受糖尿病前期和纤维肌痛（Fibromyalgia）折磨的患者分享，自己下定决心戒除所有添加糖甚至暂时戒断高糖水果后，不到一年减重 60 磅，全身疼痛指数从原本生不如死的 10 级骤降到 1-2 级，糖化血红蛋白（A1C）完全回归正常，从一名重度残障受助者重新回归全职工作。 - 68 岁的 Leslie 留言表示，自己在 2023 年底收听节目后彻底戒掉了所有糖果、布朗尼和甜点。虽然超市货架上 73% 的食品都隐藏着糖分，但克制摄入让她感到前所未有的舒畅，如今每周打 5 天匹克球（Pickleball），每天打 2 到 4 小时，形容卢斯蒂格博士简直是“最顶尖的救星”（the cat's meow）。 面对 Leslie 热情洋溢的告白，卢斯蒂格博士幽默地回应自己同样也是 68 岁，“或许等我下次去英国时我们可以约会”。斯蒂芬注意到卢斯蒂格眼中泛起的泪光与感触。卢斯蒂格坦言，这些反馈令他极为欣慰，但眼底的凝重并未散去：“这些个案虽然改变了，但整个社会的系统性危机根本没有解决。”正是因为宏观环境依然充斥着有毒的食物供应链，才赋予了他持续战斗的意义、目标与源源不断的力量。 ### [01:33:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5630s) 砍掉摄糖是首要任务：粉碎“运动减重”与卡路里神话 斯蒂芬询问，大众为了健康所能采取的最高杠杆行动是否就是少吃糖。卢斯蒂格强调，少吃糖绝对是“第一要务”（Job One），这不仅是最直接见效的手段，而且也是食品工业应当协助大众解决的根源问题——食品中充斥的大量糖分纯粹是企业为了提高销量而人为刻意添加的。 谈及运动对控糖和减重的影响时，卢斯蒂格明确澄清了长期存在的误区。运动本身并不会减轻人体对糖分的神经渴求，更不能用来“对冲”吃下去的热量。他指出，“跑步把刚才吃的甜甜圈消耗掉”是一种彻底的认知错误： - **运动的真正代谢价值**：增加细胞线粒体数量与储备，从而制造更多 ATP 能量货币；促进脑源性神经营养因子（BDNF）合成，促进突触生成与神经元新生，是降低认知衰退和阿尔茨海默病风险最核心的手段之一；增加肌肉质量，从生理机制上逆转作为过早死亡独立风险因素的肌少症（Sarcopenia）。 - **运动与减重的脱钩**：运动能够带来极其巨大的全生命周期健康益处，但**绝不直接等同于减重**。如果误以为去健身房挥汗如雨就能掉秤，那就是深陷于错误的“卡路里进出平衡假设”（Calorie Hypothesis）。卢斯蒂格表示，他的毕生目标之一就是彻底打破“卡路里就是卡路里”的谎言——食物所携带的代谢生化指令，远比单纯的热量数字致命得多。 ### [01:36:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5773s) 40% 的庞大隐形病患群与动态血糖仪（CGM）的价值争鸣 斯蒂芬引述流行病学统计指出，全球大约十分之一的人患有糖尿病，而在美国等西方现代国家，成年人中糖尿病前期的比例高达惊人的 40%（即每 10 个人中就有 4 个）。这意味着正在收听节目的受众中，有将近一半人即使体型看起来并不算过度肥胖，实际上身体内部也已经处于糖尿病前期的病理边缘。 针对刚刚拿到糖尿病前期诊断书茫然无措的普通人，卢斯蒂格开出了极简而高效的行动处方： 1. **立即戒除所有超加工食品（Ultra-Processed Foods）**：执行此步骤的同时，饮食中 90% 以上的人为隐形添加糖便会自然而然被一并扫除。 2. **坚持两周观察身体反馈**：如果两周后生化指标和体感明显改善，说明路线正确；若收效有限，再循序渐进地增加低强度有氧活动（例如每天带狗散步）。 围绕目前市面上 20 至 30 美元即可购得的连续动态血糖仪（CGM），斯蒂芬询问普通人是否有必要佩戴以辅助监控。卢斯蒂格表达了与主流学术圈截然相反的坚决支持态度： - **作为胰岛素的替代观测指标**：血糖峰值是胰岛素波动的直接代理变量（Proxy），而持续过高的胰岛素才是导致代谢崩溃的罪魁祸首。借助动态监控，个体能够亲眼看到不同食物对自身血糖波动的实时影响，从而自发做出科学的饮食调整。 - **与传统医学建制的观点对立**：目前在主流公共媒体（例如《纽约时报》等）撰文的许多学者普遍反对非糖尿病健康人群佩戴 CGM，认为这会导致健康焦虑或没有必要。卢斯蒂格对此持 180 度彻底对立的态度。他认为无论是通过细致的食物日志（Food Logging）还是佩戴动态血糖仪，只要能帮助人们建立食物与体内代谢之间的认知反馈闭环，就是挽救个体走向不可逆慢性疾病的最有力工具。 ### [01:38:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5932s) 连续血糖监测（CGM）与“健康食品”的骗局 在评估连续血糖监测仪（CGM）对非糖尿病人群的价值时，部分传统研究因指标选取偏差而产生误判。罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士（Dr. Robert Lustig）指出，若套用针对糖尿病患者的“目标范围内时间”（Time in Range）作为衡量指标，非糖尿病人群的血糖读数自然绝大部分都在正常区间内，从而得出“CGM无用”的荒谬结论；但实际上，真正的健康收益体现在三个月后的下游代谢指标改善上。史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此深有共鸣，他认为在网上购买便宜的 CGM 佩戴即使只有短短 14 天，也能彻底打破人们对所谓“健康饮食”的认知误区。 谈及个人被伪健康食品欺骗的经历，史蒂芬列举了三样颠覆他认知的食物： - **橙汁与果汁饮料**：从小在电视广告宣称“富含维生素 C”的轰炸下长大，史蒂芬童年时总在冰箱里大口灌饮 Sunny Delight（Sunny D）。卢斯蒂格博士直言这完全是食品巨头精心设计的骗局，史蒂芬则调侃自己是受害者，甚至整个英美大众都该为此获得赔偿。史蒂芬引用上期节目观众的高赞评论总结道：“凡是与电视广告挂钩的食物，一概不要吃。”真正健康的天然食材如黄瓜，由于缺乏高利润空间，根本不会登上电视广告。 - **白米饭**：史蒂芬原以为白米饭极为健康，但在佩戴其投资的健康监测设备（Vively / 类似 CGM 设备）后，发现吃白米饭对自身血糖水平和肠道微生态产生了灾难性的剧烈冲击。 - **番茄酱**：日常调味酱料中暗藏惊人糖分，例如市售的亨氏番茄酱（Heinz ketchup）成分中近乎一半都是高果糖玉米糖浆（HFCS）。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: CGM揭示的隐形高糖食物陷阱 accDescr: 展示公众认知中的健康食物与CGM监测下的代谢真相对比 subgraph Trap["公众认知假象"] A1["果汁 / Sunny D: '富含维生素C'"] A2["白米饭: 传统健康主食"] A3["番茄酱: 普通佐餐调味品"] end subgraph Reality["CGM揭示的生理真相"] B1["高果糖冲击，剥离膳食纤维"] B2["精制碳水导致剧烈血糖峰值"] B3["一半成分为高果糖玉米糖浆"] end A1 --> B1 A2 --> B2 A3 --> B3 ``` --- ### [01:41:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6105s) 致幻剂：打破大脑思维定势的“暴风雪” 当被问及还有什么关键话题未被讨论时，卢斯蒂格博士主动提到了致幻剂（Psychedelics）。他解释道，致幻剂是强效的血清素拟似物（Serotonin mimicker），一次性提供大剂量的血清素信号刺激。血清素能带来满足感、安详感与希腊哲学中所说的“幸福与繁荣”（Eudaimonia），并在大脑中驱动突触层面的重新连接，这一神经重塑过程可以在功能性磁共振成像（MRI）中被清晰观察到。 为了生动阐明致幻剂的工作原理，卢斯蒂格博士打了一个雪山滑雪的比方： 假设你住在雪山顶上，每周必须滑雪下山去山脚的杂货铺采购。久而久之，滑雪板在雪地里反复碾出深沟；当冰雪冻结后，这些深沟变成了你下山的唯一通道。你被彻底困在了自己划出的车辙里，再也无法尝试任何新路径。这正是人脑思维定式的形成机制——人们陷入自己构建的信念系统与认知死胡同，单凭理智根本无法“想通”并走出来。 > “致幻剂就像是一场巨大的暴风雪，重新填平了所有的车辙与深沟，为你留下一片平整崭新的雪坡，让你能够随心所欲地向任何方向滑行。它是你走出思维死胡同的途径。” 在英美等国，大量人群深陷于令自己痛苦的固有信念与心理死结中。虽然不借助药物也能实现观念转变，但过程极其艰难；致幻剂则提供了一种“黑客式破解”（Hack）既有信念系统的方法，促使人们重新审视自己的人生、周遭的人际关系与互动模式。 --- ### [01:45:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6300s) 致幻剂的临床应用与安全边界 史蒂芬对致幻剂的医学前景极为认同，并分享了自己作为投资人和董事在大型致幻剂公司（如 Atai Life Sciences）以及 Compass Pathways 的经历，同时肯定了非营利组织 MAPS 在利用此类分子治疗难治性抑郁症、创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）和焦虑症方面的先锋工作。对于此类极具医疗潜力的药物经历长达数十年的研究停滞，史蒂芬感到无比遗憾。 卢斯蒂格博士回应指出，致幻剂在 20 世纪 70 年代尼克松政府时期被严重妖魔化。针对致幻剂的使用，他提出了绝不可逾越的安全红线： - **严禁独自使用**：任何人都不应在无人陪同的情况下自行摄入致幻剂。 - **专业向导陪护**：必须在完全信任且将安全置于首位的专业人员（Guide）引导下进行。 - **环境与心境（Set and Setting）**：必须在正规的临床医疗环境与充分的心理准备下进行，这是确保安全与疗效的唯一正确途径。 --- ### [01:46:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6370s) 质疑既有信念系统：人生的终极解法 按照播客的收尾传统，前一位嘉宾在不知后继者身份的情况下留下了一个深度哲学问题：“纵观你的一生以及他人的生命，你会如何描述人生的旅程？又该如何去面对它？” 卢斯蒂格博士给出了充满神经科学色彩的回答：人一生下来，大脑中就已经预设了神经元、突触和神经回路。即便新生儿毫无生活经历，后续的人生经验也会不断强化或修剪这些回路，并最终固化为个人的“信念系统”（Belief systems）。 > “几乎所有你曾以为自己理解的、关于这个世界如何运转的信念系统，全都是错的。你必须对这一事实保持开放态度：所有你曾信以为真的事情，都不是真的。若你能对自己坦诚到这种程度，你就会真正认识自己；而认识了自己，你才能获得真正的幸福。但若你盲信自己的信念系统且从不质疑，你将永远无法抵达彼岸。” --- ### [01:47:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6465s) 挽救生命的倡导与国王的会晤 对话尾声，史蒂芬向卢斯蒂格博士表达了由衷的敬意与谢意。史蒂芬强调，许多做客节目的嘉宾都在行善，但卢斯蒂格博士的科普和研究是在切切实实地挽救成千上万人的生命。视频评论区充斥着无数普通人因采纳其建议而扭转疾病、改变命运的真实故事。 史蒂芬提到卢斯蒂格博士近期在英国受邀与英国国王查尔斯三世（King Charles III）会面，双方就国民健康指标和慢性病应对展开了深入探讨，这无疑是对其公共倡导工作的高度认可。史蒂芬还隆重介绍了现场展示的卢斯蒂格博士的多本开创性著作（包括即将于 9 月 16 日出版的新书），称赞这些著作为公众破除工业加工食品的弥天谎言提供了宝贵的武器。 ### [01:48:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6534s) 访谈结语与感谢 主持人 Steven Bartlett 对 Robert Lustig 博士的深度分享表达了由衷的感谢，赞赏他的研究与洞见精准切中了大众在现实生活中的困惑与渴求。Robert 博士也礼貌回应表示这是自己的荣幸，整场探讨糖瘾、超加工食品、多巴胺劫持与慢性病危机的深刻对话在融洽温暖的氛围中圆满收官。 ### [01:49:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6541s) DOAC 独家核心圈社群招募 访谈结束后，Steven 带来了一则内部特别邀请，宣布正式向全球观众推出专属私密社群——"DOAC Circle"（The Diary Of A CEO 核心圈）。为了保持社群的紧密与高质量互动，本阶段仅限前 10,000 名加入的用户，满额后将暂时关闭入口。 Steven 透露，社群成员将解锁大量节目从未公开的幕后资源与专属权益： - **录制独家手稿**：查看 Steven 在节目录制过程中 iPad 上所使用的完整调研简报与提纲。 - **未公开幕后素材**：包括从未对外发布的剪辑片段、与受邀嘉宾在台前幕后的私密对话，甚至完全雪藏、未正式上线的整期节目内容。 - **直接对话与节目共创**：成员享有与 Steven 的直接沟通渠道，可以针对节目方向提出建议、点播希望采访的重磅嘉宾，并定制自己最渴望探讨的话题类型。 感兴趣的观众可通过视频简介中的链接或直接访问 `doaccircle.com` 申请加入。 ### [01:49:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6595s) 订阅倡议与制作承诺 Steven 随后分享了一组令他长期感到惊讶的数据：经常收听与观看本节目的观众中，居然有高达 53% 的人尚未点击订阅。为此，他向所有认同节目价值、希望支持团队持续产出优质内容的听众发起了一个简单真诚的请求——顺手点击订阅按钮。 作为回报，Steven 做出郑重承诺：只要观众给予这份免费而举手之劳的支持，他与整个幕后制作团队必将竭尽全力，在每周持续打磨升级节目品质，认真倾听观众反馈，不遗余力地邀请大家最想见到的嘉宾，将更加深度的思想对话带给每一个人。 ## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=0s) 如果一种食品带有营养标签，那它本质上就是一个警示标签。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [09:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=559s) 第一次接触时，你是‘喜欢’（Liking）；第二次重复时，你变成了‘想要’（Wanting）；而到了第三次，你已经变成了‘需要’（Needing）。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [32:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=1975s) 我不是来当你们的敌人的，我是来做你们的良心的。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [35:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=2104s) 保护肝脏、滋养肠道、支持大脑（Protect the liver, feed the gut, support the brain）。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [51:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3103s) 当你发现自己的观点与某个群体的重合度高达99%时，你就知道自己已经深陷于某种邪教（cult）之中了，因为在严谨的逻辑下这种情况根本不该发生。 — 史蒂文·巴特利特 > [56:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3376s) 如果超加工食品是他们在整个人生里唯一能感受到的快感，你永远也不可能治好他们的饮食成瘾，因为那是他们赖以支撑的全部。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [01:00:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=3604s) 如果你的大脑在发炎，你根本无法去爱。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [01:10:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4248s) 一旦你抹杀了奖赏，人类早晨根本找不到起床的理由。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [01:18:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=4709s) 只要一种食品印有标签，你就该把它看作警告标签；如果糖类排在前三位成分之中，它就是甜点。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [01:24:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5079s) 如果人们想自掏腰包买汽水喝，那是他们的个人自由；但我们绝不能动用联邦政府的财政补贴，去为穷人的慢性自杀买单！ — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [01:28:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5315s) 果汁绝不健康，只有完整的水果才健康。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [01:38:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=5932s) 凡是与电视广告挂钩的食物，一概不要吃。 — 史蒂芬·巴特利特 > [01:41:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6105s) 致幻剂就像是一场巨大的暴风雪，重新填平了所有的车辙与深沟，为你留下一片平整崭新的雪坡，让你能够随心所欲地向任何方向滑行。它是你走出思维死胡同的途径。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 > [01:46:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk&t=6370s) 几乎所有你曾以为自己理解的、关于这个世界如何运转的信念系统，全都是错的。你必须对这一事实保持开放态度：所有你曾信以为真的事情，都不是真的。若你能对自己坦诚到这种程度，你就会真正认识自己；而认识了自己，你才能获得真正的幸福。但若你盲信自己的信念系统且从不质疑，你将永远无法抵达彼岸。 — 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士 ## Mentioned 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格 (Dr. Robert Lustig), 史蒂文·巴特利特 (Steven Bartlett), 小罗伯特·F·肯尼迪 (Robert F. Kennedy Jr.), 维韦克·穆尔蒂 (Vivek Murthy), 查尔斯三世 (King Charles III), 理查德·尼克松 (Richard Nixon), KDD (Kuwaiti Danish Dairy Company), 诺和诺德 (Novo Nordisk), Pipedrive, Stan Store, Atai Life Sciences, Compass Pathways, MAPS, Consensus, 世界卫生组织 (WHO), 美国精神医学学会 (APA), 《神经病学年鉴》 (Annals of Neurology), 《营养前沿》 (Frontiers in Nutrition), 《Metabolical》, 《Fat Chance》, Ozempic, 司美格鲁肽 (Semaglutide), 利莫那班 (Rimonabant), 阿斯巴甜 (Aspartame), 三氯蔗糖 (Sucralose), SNAP (美国补充营养援助计划), Sunny Delight (Sunny D), 亨氏 (Heinz), Ensure (安素) ## Video description Dr. Robert Lustig, a world-leading expert on sugar addiction, metabolism, ultra-processed food, and artificial sweeteners, reveals how they fuel obesity, dementia, dopamine overload, and addiction - and the dangers of RFK Jr.’s health approach. Dr. Robert Lustig is a neuroendocrinologist and expert on sugar, obesity, and the science of addiction, whose groundbreaking new research reveals how the 4 major health crises are all interconnected and driven by stress. He is also the bestselling author of books such as, ‘Metabolical’, and ‘Fat Chance’. He explains: ◼️Why 29% of Americans are depressed and how food plays a hidden role ◼️How 17 seconds of pleasure can rewire your brain for lifelong addiction ◼️How the food industry secretly engineers addiction and fuels chronic disease ◼️Why 95% of Alzheimer’s risk is environmental and completely preventable ◼️The dangerous link between dopamine spikes and brain cell death 00:00 Intro 02:15 The Hostage Brain 06:10 Dopamine and the Pain of Lacking Control 09:19 Tolerance Is the Start of Addiction 10:26 If You Depend on Anything, It's Bad 11:12 Is Dopamine Fasting the Cure? 13:11 Can You Rewire Your Brain Away from Sugar Cravings? 15:02 The Shocking Link Between Dementia and Diet Products 21:15 Cortisol's Link to Dementia 22:26 Proteins 25:19 Is Alzheimer's Genetic or Environmental? 28:43 Ketones 32:55 Ultra-Processed Foods Are Poison 34:13 Reengineering Ultra-Processed Food to Be Healthy 39:28 What Needs to Change in the USA 44:53 RFK and Vaccination in the USA 51:43 Important Message About Where You Get Your Information 55:14 Ads 56:16 Practical Steps to Fix Your Addiction 01:01:11 If You Have an Inflamed Brain, You Can't Love 01:03:55 Are Our Diets Making Us Lonely? 01:07:49 Your Vagus Nerve Needs to Be Healthy 01:08:31 Do Vagus Nerve Stimulators Work? 01:10:40 The Real Truth About Ozempic 01:15:55 Can Ozempic Help with Addiction? 01:18:32 Practical Tips to Lose Weight and Avoid Ultra-Processed Foods 01:21:49 The Dangers of Drinking Soda 01:24:09 Younger People Are Getting Cancer More Than Ever 01:27:22 Ads 01:34:16 Does Exercise Help Lower Your Sugar Consumption? 01:36:14 Almost Half of the Population Is Pre-Diabetic 01:39:25 Glucose Monitors 01:41:45 Psychedelics Follow Dr Robert: Instagram - https://bit.ly/3KkR9ce Website - https://bit.ly/48MtKdA You can purchase Dr Robert’s book, ‘Metabolical: The Lure and the Lies of Processed Food, Nutrition, and Modern Medicine’, here: https://amzn.to/4qs2nex Research document: https://stevenbartlett.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/10/DOAC-Robert-Lustig-Independent-Research-further-reading.pdf The Diary Of A CEO: ◼️Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ◼️Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook ◼️The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt ◼️The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb ◼️Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt ◼️Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Pipedrive - http://pipedrive.com/CEO Stan Store - https://stevenbartlett.stan.store for your 14-Day free trial [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZE_H7rijrVk)

[0:00] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 如果一种食品带有营养标签，那它本质上就是一个警示标签。 [9:19] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 第一次接触时，你是‘喜欢’（Liking）；第二次重复时，你变成了‘想要’（Wanting）；而到了第三次，你已经变成了‘需要’（Needing）。 [32:55] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 我不是来当你们的敌人的，我是来做你们的良心的。 [35:04] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 保护肝脏、滋养肠道、支持大脑（Protect the liver, feed the gut, support the brain）。 [51:43] 史蒂文·巴特利特: 当你发现自己的观点与某个群体的重合度高达99%时，你就知道自己已经深陷于某种邪教（cult）之中了，因为在严谨的逻辑下这种情况根本不该发生。 [56:16] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 如果超加工食品是他们在整个人生里唯一能感受到的快感，你永远也不可能治好他们的饮食成瘾，因为那是他们赖以支撑的全部。 [60:04] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 如果你的大脑在发炎，你根本无法去爱。 [70:48] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 一旦你抹杀了奖赏，人类早晨根本找不到起床的理由。 [78:29] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 只要一种食品印有标签，你就该把它看作警告标签；如果糖类排在前三位成分之中，它就是甜点。 [84:39] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 如果人们想自掏腰包买汽水喝，那是他们的个人自由；但我们绝不能动用联邦政府的财政补贴，去为穷人的慢性自杀买单！ [88:35] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 果汁绝不健康，只有完整的水果才健康。 [98:52] 史蒂芬·巴特利特: 凡是与电视广告挂钩的食物，一概不要吃。 [101:45] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 致幻剂就像是一场巨大的暴风雪，重新填平了所有的车辙与深沟，为你留下一片平整崭新的雪坡，让你能够随心所欲地向任何方向滑行。它是你走出思维死胡同的途径。 [106:10] 罗伯特·卢斯蒂格博士: 几乎所有你曾以为自己理解的、关于这个世界如何运转的信念系统，全都是错的。你必须对这一事实保持开放态度：所有你曾信以为真的事情，都不是真的。若你能对自己坦诚到这种程度，你就会真正认识自己；而认识了自己，你才能获得真正的幸福。但若你盲信自己的信念系统且从不质疑，你将永远无法抵达彼岸。

[43:12] Dr. Robert Lustig: I'm a mitochondriac. I can't. [56:16] Dr. Robert Lustig: Who are you? Do you know who you are? [61:11] Dr. Robert Lustig: You can't love if your brain is inflamed. [70:40] Dr. Robert Lustig: If everyone in America who qualified for a GLP-1 analogue got it, that would be $2.1 trillion to the healthcare system, which is currently 4.1 trillion. So that would be a 50% surcharge over what we're currently paying. [78:32] Dr. Robert Lustig: If a food has a label, it's a warning label... if any food has a sugar in the first three ingredients, it's dessert. [88:12] Dr. Robert Lustig: Fruit has fiber. The fiber reduces the rate of absorption from the gut into the bloodstream... as soon as you juice it, you've thrown the fiber in the garbage. Eat the fruit, don't drink the juice. [99:25] Dr. Robert Lustig: Any food that is linked to a television commercial should not be consumed. [101:45] Dr. Robert Lustig: Psychedelics are like a huge enormous blizzard filling in the ruts, filling in the ridges, so you end up with a pristine snowbank for you to be able to basically ski any which way you want. [106:10] Dr. Robert Lustig: Almost every belief system that you thought you understood about how the world works is wrong. You have to be open to the fact that all the things you thought were true aren't. And if you are that open with yourself, you will know yourself. And if you know yourself, you can be happy.

[0:00] People say, "Oh, Alzheimer's is genetic [0:02] garbage." That genetic component is only [0:04] 5%. So that means 95% of Alzheimer's [0:08] risk is environmental air pollution, [0:10] microlastics, [0:12] ultrarocessed food. And a paper just [0:14] came out showing that sweetener [0:16] consumption correlates with dementia. [0:18] And we think we know why. [0:19] >> And you've not talked about this [0:20] publicly yet. [0:21] >> No. Let's talk. [0:22] >> Dr. Robert Lustig is a worldleading [0:24] sugar expert [0:25] >> who's teaching the world how to reclaim [0:27] their health from the industry that [0:29] profits off your vulnerabilities. [0:31] >> 73% of the items in the American grocery [0:34] store are poison because sugar is hidden [0:36] in all the foods. For instance, there's [0:38] 262 names for sugar and the food [0:40] industry uses all of them because they [0:42] knew when they add it, you buy more. But [0:43] the problem is it's providing people [0:45] with a dopamine hit and that dopamine is [0:47] addictive and that's when you actually [0:49] have a biochemical and medical problem. [0:51] And we have data to show that [0:53] ultrarocessed food has been associated [0:55] with dementia, diabetes, cancer, every [0:57] single mental health disease. So the [0:59] question is, how can you buy healthy [1:01] food and not be tempted by the bad [1:04] stuff? So the first, if a food has a [1:06] label, it's a warning label. The second [1:07] thing, if any food has a sugar in the [1:10] first three ingredients, it's dessert. [1:12] And then when they go to the store, [1:14] don't go hungry. [1:15] >> And what about exercise? [1:16] >> Well, it doesn't really impact your [1:18] desire to reach for sugar. It has its [1:20] own metabolic benefits, but if you think [1:22] exercise is going to make you lose [1:24] weight, you are deluded. And we can talk [1:27] about that. [1:28] >> So, with all of this in mind, if I've [1:29] got a sugar problem or if I got an [1:31] addiction problem, what is the remedy? [1:33] >> I will tell you that this is one of the [1:35] things I did in my obesity clinic. So, [1:37] the only way you're going to be able to [1:39] fix the problem is [1:41] >> I see messages all the time in the [1:43] comments section that some of you didn't [1:44] realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you [1:46] could do me a favor and double check if [1:48] you're a subscriber to this channel, [1:49] that would be tremendously appreciated. [1:51] It's the simple, it's the free thing [1:52] that anybody that watches this show [1:54] frequently can do to help us here to [1:56] keep everything going in this show in [1:57] the trajectory it's on. So, please do [1:59] double check if you've subscribed and uh [2:01] thank you so much because in a strange [2:02] way, you are you're part of our history [2:05] and you're on this journey with us and I [2:06] appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank [2:08] you [2:12] >> Dr. Robert. Good to have you back. [2:14] >> Oh, my pleasure. I am particularly [2:17] fascinated by this term hostage brain. I [2:19] know you're in the early stages of [2:21] working on a book about this subject, [2:22] but for anyone that doesn't understand. [2:24] So, when I look at this word the hostage [2:26] brain, I think of all the times that [2:29] I've been out of control. And when I say [2:31] out of control, I'm going to let you [2:33] define it, but when I say out of [2:34] control, I mean there's so many things I [2:36] want to do as it relates to my health, [2:38] my fitness, other aspects of my life, [2:40] whether it's avoiding eating the cookie [2:43] at 2 a.m. in a hotel room somewhere, or [2:46] other areas of my life where I want to [2:48] have greater elements of control. What [2:50] does what do you mean by the hostage [2:52] brain? [2:53] >> All of us want to be in control, [2:55] Stephen. I mean, it's the nature of [2:58] humanity. We want to be in control. We [3:01] want to be in control of our lives. [3:02] Unfortunately, many of us want to be in [3:04] control of everyone else's lives as [3:06] we've seen play out on grand stages [3:08] lately. Okay? Everyone wants to be in [3:10] control. And the reason we want to be in [3:12] control is because then we can mitigate [3:14] threat. When you're in control, then [3:18] threat is low because you're in control. [3:21] Problem is, we're not in control. [3:24] The more in control, the more a specific [3:28] area of your brain is basically glomming [3:31] on. And that area of the brain is known [3:33] as the amygdala. The amygdala is your [3:37] fear center. It's also your 24-hour [3:40] sentry. But really what the amygdala is, [3:43] it's the point guard on your basketball [3:45] team. Okay? So, it surveys the entire [3:48] court, sees the offense and the defense, [3:51] and has to make split-second decisions [3:54] who's going to score. Now, a lousy point [3:58] guard takes all the shots. A good point [4:01] guard passes off to the guy who has the [4:04] best shot. A great point guard is going [4:07] to be able to figure out if he's going [4:08] to score or if he's going to pass it off [4:10] to somebody else. If you're in control, [4:14] okay, your level of threat goes down. [4:19] But really, your control is an illusion. [4:22] You really don't have control. And the [4:25] more you try to exert it, [4:29] the more you realize you're not in [4:30] control. And what that does is that [4:33] generates an enormous amount of stress [4:36] and anor enormous amount of pain. [4:39] Now that pain can turn inward and we [4:42] call that depression [4:45] and right now 29% of Americans are [4:49] depressed and 4.4% of the entire world [4:53] is depressed. These numbers were [4:56] infinite decimal a generation ago and [4:59] they are basically you know just you [5:02] know pushing up further and further and [5:04] the reason is because of this [5:07] inappropriate illusion of control and [5:10] it's causing an enormous amount of pain. [5:14] How do you mllify that pain? [5:17] How do you basically deal with the [5:19] psychological pain of lack of control [5:24] that you yourself put upon yourself? [5:27] Well, we have loads of ways. Cocaine, [5:30] amphetamine, nicotine, alcohol, sugar, [5:33] gambling, uh uh social media, internet [5:36] gaming, uh pornography. Pick your [5:39] poison. That's dopamine. [5:43] Dopamine basically [5:45] provides you with a little bit of [5:47] pleasure on top of a whole lot of pain. [5:50] The problem is that dopamine is [5:52] addictive. [5:54] And so when you apply a set of pleasures [5:58] to try to deal with your pain of lack of [6:01] control, that puts you into a never- [6:04] ending cycle of consumption and misery. [6:09] That's the hostage brain. What do I need [6:11] to understand about dopamine in order to [6:13] because I think sometimes awareness is [6:15] step one in being able to do something [6:17] about a problem that you might have. So [6:20] what do I need to understand about what [6:21] dopamine is and what it's doing in my [6:23] brain and how it's sort of associated [6:25] with addiction to then be able to do [6:27] something about it which I consider step [6:29] two. [6:30] >> So dopamine basically has two functions. [6:34] The first is learning. There's no [6:36] learning without dopamine. [6:39] Anytime you learn something, whether [6:40] it's positive or negative, it's because [6:43] there was a dopamine release. When you [6:45] put your hand down on a hot stove when [6:47] you were three years old and went, "Ah, [6:51] I'm never doing that again." Okay? That [6:53] was dopamine that did that. Okay? And [6:55] what it did was it went to your amydala [6:58] and it rewired it. [7:00] That was a rewiring of your amydala due [7:03] to the excitatory [7:05] neuro stimulus of that dopamine [7:08] affecting an area of your brain called [7:10] the basilateral amydala. [7:13] Okay? And it laid down and it set up a [7:15] circuit and that circuit is still [7:17] working in you right now. Okay? So [7:21] dopamine is the learning [7:24] neurotransmitter. [7:26] It can be for negative learning. It can [7:28] be for positive learning. Either way, [7:31] >> dopamine is also when it's going to [7:34] another area of the brain called the [7:36] nucleus encumbent which is the reward [7:38] center. [7:40] That is [7:42] a stimulus for reward. That is the [7:44] motivation for reward. [7:48] That is in [7:50] one word foreplay. [7:53] Okay? That is the excitement, [7:56] the reason for continuing any given [8:01] behavior. [8:02] Okay? You get both out of dopamine. [8:06] Okay? And in short, small bursts in the [8:11] right venue. [8:13] That's how we navigate life. We navigate [8:16] it through learning and we navigate it [8:18] through reward. [8:21] You can't do it without dopamine. [8:24] Dopamine is good unless it's bad. And as [8:28] you know, everything in science is both [8:30] good and bad. The problem is chronic [8:33] overstimulation of any neuron leads to [8:35] neuronal cell death. Dopamine is a [8:38] chronic stimulator. And so if you have [8:42] chronic dopamine being released, [8:46] what's going to happen is you're going [8:47] to kill the next neuron. [8:50] Now that neuron doesn't want to die. So [8:53] it downregulates the receptors for [8:55] dopamine so that it's less likely that [8:58] one dopamine over here is going to find [9:00] a receptor over here to bind to because [9:02] there are fewer of them. So what this [9:04] means is more and more for less and [9:07] less. And we call that phenomenon [9:09] tolerance. More dopamine, more [9:11] tolerance. So the law of diminishing [9:14] returns. M. [9:16] >> So you get a hit, you get a rush. [9:19] >> Could be a sugar, alcohol, whatever it [9:21] might be. Pornography. Yeah. [9:23] >> Pick your poison. Doesn't matter. You [9:25] get a hit, you get a rush, receptors go [9:27] down. Next time you need a bigger hit to [9:29] get the same rush, receptors go down. [9:31] And then you need a bigger hit and a [9:32] bigger hit and a bigger hit until [9:33] finally you get a huge hit to get [9:35] nothing. That's called tolerance. And [9:38] then when the neurons actually start to [9:41] die, that's called addiction. [9:44] So tolerance is the start of addiction. [9:47] And the problem is more dopamine, more [9:50] tolerance, more tolerance, more [9:52] addiction. [9:52] >> So people that are getting addicted to [9:55] unhealthy foods and sugars and those [9:58] kinds of things, what's like going on in [10:00] their brain? So, at first, the first [10:04] time they taste it, you know, whatever [10:06] it is, whether it's a uh a Froot Loop or [10:08] a, you know, a candy corn or um you [10:12] know, Frappuccino or, you know, pick [10:14] your uh pick your poison. Um you you get [10:17] this big, you know, sort of, you know, [10:19] sugar bomb going off in your head and [10:22] you go, "Wow, this is great." You know, [10:25] I want some more of this down the whole [10:28] Frappuccino. Okay. And what you've done [10:30] is you've basically hit your nucleus [10:34] incumbent with a big slug of dopamine [10:37] and you go, "Wow, that was great." And [10:39] then an hour later it's gone. And then [10:41] you go, "God, I need that again." Okay. [10:44] So the first time you got it, you liked [10:47] it. The second time you did it, you [10:49] wanted it. And the third time you needed [10:53] it. So that's the difference between [10:55] liking and wanting and needing. Okay? [10:57] Because liking we all do and no one [11:00] wants to take away liking. Wanting gets [11:02] into problems because you can over abuse [11:06] things. Needing is when you actually [11:08] have a biochemical and medical problem. [11:12] So with all of this in mind, if I've got [11:14] a sugar problem or if I've got an [11:15] addiction problem, I'm addicted to [11:17] insert poison. [11:20] What is what is the the remedy? Just [11:22] avoid it for a while and then if that is [11:24] the remedy, what what's going on in my [11:26] brain? Is it fixing itself? [11:27] >> There are many remedies, okay? And they [11:30] can all be used in conjunction with each [11:32] other. Uh ultimately, the only thing [11:35] that's going to work is getting those [11:37] dopamine receptors back up. Remember I [11:39] told you dopamine downregulates its own [11:41] receptor. The only way you're going to [11:43] be able to fix the problem is for the [11:44] dopamine receptors to come back up. [11:48] There's a a uh a uh trend going on right [11:52] now out in Silicon Valley you may have [11:54] heard of called dopamine fasting. [11:56] >> Ah okay. [11:57] >> Yeah you've heard the word. [11:58] >> You basically people lock themselves up [12:01] in a hotel room for three weeks. Okay. [12:04] don't take a shower and um you know [12:08] basically you know take the TVs out of [12:10] the room and um you know try to commune [12:14] with uh themselves and with nature with [12:17] no stimuli with no external stimuli in [12:20] order to bring their dopamine receptors [12:23] back up. It's particularly true of [12:25] cocaine addicts because their dopamine [12:27] receptors are way down because after all [12:30] cocaine is a dopamine reuptake [12:32] inhibitor. So, it's flooding the zone [12:35] with dopamine. Therefore, those [12:37] receptors are, you know, down in the [12:39] sewer. [12:40] Now, do you have to be that severe? No, [12:43] of course not. But does it work? Takes [12:47] three weeks. You want to do it for 3 [12:49] weeks? Yeah. Then it works. Other ways, [12:52] you know, you can wean yourself off. You [12:54] can do abstinence. [12:56] And if you if you can do abstinence, [12:59] that's a good idea. hard to do, [13:02] especially when it's, you know, staring [13:03] at you and when it's available 247, 365 [13:07] like sugar is, you know, it's [13:09] everywhere. It's on every street corner. [13:12] >> When I when I fast or when I do the [13:13] ketogenic diet, [13:15] >> I lose my apparent cravings. [13:18] >> That's right. Exactly right. [13:21] >> And the reason is because no sugar in in [13:24] a ketogenic diet. So, you're basically [13:27] removing the offensive stimulus. [13:30] >> I was so shocked. I love those cinnamon [13:32] roll things. Not that I I probably one [13:34] every two years, but I love them [13:35] nonetheless. I'm like a big admirer, [13:36] even though we don't have a relationship [13:38] anymore. [13:38] >> And I when I did the ketogenic diet for [13:41] about I was on I was 4 weeks in of not [13:43] having any sugar and or carbohydrates. [13:46] And I walked up to this concession in [13:48] Cape Town with these all these amazing [13:50] cinnamon rolls. They're like [13:51] specialists. And I looked at them and [13:53] there was zero part of my brain that was [13:55] interested in any of it. Zero part of my [13:58] brain. And I was like, "Wow, my brain [13:59] has been like rewired or something [14:02] >> just because I've removed sugar from my [14:03] diet." [14:04] >> Yeah, [14:06] >> it happens. Uh it but it takes a while. [14:09] >> It's not something that you know you can [14:11] turn on and off. [14:13] >> It takes a a fair amount of time. I will [14:16] tell you that um you know this is one of [14:18] the things I did in my obesity clinic [14:22] you know on a daily basis was getting [14:24] people off their sugar addiction [14:27] >> and sometimes you have to basically [14:28] babysit them. you have to, you know, [14:31] work with them and with work with their [14:32] parents in order to, you know, basically [14:35] turn over the entire pantry because the [14:38] sugar is hidden in all the foods, you [14:40] know, I mean, it's it's uh there 262 [14:42] names for sugar and the food industry [14:44] uses all of them. This is why we are [14:46] trying to get sugar addiction and [14:49] ultrarocessed food addiction codified by [14:51] the WHO and by the American Psychiatric [14:54] Association as a bonafide um diagnosis [14:58] so that we can get remediation and [15:00] therap therapy for people. [15:02] >> One of the things that was one of the [15:04] most popular parts of our conversation [15:05] last time, Robert, was there was a [15:06] section where we talked about the [15:08] different types of sugar and diet cokes [15:10] and coke zeros and all these kinds of [15:12] things. [15:14] You know, I if I can see a couple of [15:16] cans on the desk over there where where [15:18] Jack is um in the darkness that I can [15:20] vaguely see. And these cans of fizzy [15:24] drink, they all have some kind of sugar [15:26] substitute. [15:26] >> Yep. [15:27] >> Are those sugar substitutes harmless? [15:30] >> No, of course not. Um a paper just came [15:33] out like three days ago in animals of [15:36] neurology uh basically showing that uh [15:40] uh non-nutritive sweetener consumption [15:43] so diet sweetener consumption uh [15:46] correlates with dementia [15:49] and we think we know why [15:51] >> why [15:52] >> reactive oxygen species so oxygen [15:56] radicals uh little chemicals that are [15:58] given off from various substances that [16:02] cause changes in energy metabolism in [16:05] cells and also cause damage in cells. R [16:08] O's reactive oxygen species the famous [16:12] ones are spartame and sucralose. [16:15] Now do monk fruit extract do stevia does [16:19] alulose also cause reactive oxygen [16:22] species? I very specifically looked for [16:25] data on those could not find it. But for [16:28] spartame and for sucralose, the two [16:30] biggest ones that are available today, [16:33] the ones that are used in a lot of diet [16:35] drinks, huge amounts of ROS generation, [16:41] >> reactive oxygen species generation. So, [16:44] anything that generates ROS's [16:46] contributes to u dementia. [16:49] >> Is the evidence strong at this stage? [16:52] Yeah, it's pretty darn strong. I'm [16:53] actually giving a talk about this next [16:55] week in San Diego. [16:56] >> I heard you've got a a new theory on the [17:00] causes of Alzheimer's dementia that's [17:02] somewhat linked. This is it. [17:03] >> This is it. Yeah. [17:04] >> Can you explain that to me? And you've [17:06] you've not talked about this publicly [17:07] yet. You're set to talk about it in a [17:09] couple of days, I hear. [17:10] >> Uh let me uh take it back a step. Okay. [17:13] There's this organel inside our brains [17:17] called mitochondria. You've heard of [17:19] mitochondria? [17:20] >> Yeah. for the for your audience. [17:21] Mitochondria are the little energy [17:23] burning factories inside each of our [17:25] cells. What they do is they take food [17:27] energy and turn it into the chemical [17:30] energy that your cell can actually use [17:32] to power itself. [17:34] Okay? And that chemical energy has a [17:36] name. It's called ATP. Now, if you took [17:39] biology in high school, you've heard of [17:41] ATP, adenazine triphosphate. The energy [17:45] is in the phosphate bonds. So ATP [17:50] will give up its energy and go to ADP [17:53] diphosphate which will then give up its [17:55] energy and go to AM monofhosphate which [17:59] will then finally go to adenazine [18:02] and adenazine binds to the adenazine [18:05] receptor and makes you go to sleep. [18:07] >> Mhm. By the way, that's where caffeine [18:09] works. It blocks the adenazine receptor [18:11] keeping you awake so that the adenazine [18:14] can't bind to the adenazine receptor. [18:16] Okay, so that ATP [18:20] is the currency of the cell. That's what [18:22] makes the cell run. [18:25] Anything that depletes ATP [18:28] is going to put the cell at risk. [18:30] >> Mhm. [18:31] >> Okay. Because it doesn't have the energy [18:33] it needs to run. [18:34] >> Yeah. It's like it's gasoline. [18:36] >> It's like gasoline. So what happens when [18:38] you start running out of gasoline? [18:41] >> Well, you break down. [18:42] >> You'll break down. [18:43] So brain fog, [18:46] difficulty concentrating, [18:48] irritability [18:50] and ultimately all the way to [18:52] depression. So the amount of ATP within [18:56] any given neuron [18:58] is the approximate cause of neuronal [19:03] dysfunction that we see as [19:06] neurocognitive and neurobbehavioral [19:08] change. Now, [19:11] how do mitochondria and how do ROS's fit [19:13] into this? [19:16] Mitochondria make ATP, [19:19] but every time they make ATP, they make [19:21] also make ROS's. There are 11 steps in [19:24] mitochondria and they all give off [19:26] ROS's. Now, those ROS's are going to [19:30] damage the cell. They have to be gotten [19:32] rid of. They're like toxic fumes. They [19:37] got to be gotten rid of. And so we have [19:39] a pathway in each cell of our body to [19:43] get rid of the toxic ROS's. Okay, [19:46] they're called antioxidants [19:49] like glutathione, vitamin E, vitamin C, [19:54] host of other uh flavonoids. Okay, those [19:58] basically quench those reactive oxygen [20:01] species. They go to die. [20:05] If you do that, then the ROS's basically [20:08] just get funneled away and all is well [20:10] and the cell can keep working. But if [20:13] for some reason those antioxidants [20:15] aren't up to par, if for instance you [20:17] being eating ultrarocessed food and you [20:20] can't make your antioxidant compliment, [20:23] then the ROS's feed back and what [20:25] happens is the ROS's are basically [20:28] telling the cell, hey, you're shunting [20:31] too much energy down this pathway [20:34] because I can't clear them. So there's [20:38] too much stuff. So [20:41] shut it down. And so what happens is [20:44] that instead of funneling the glucose [20:47] into the mitochondria to generate more [20:49] ATP, it diverts it and it goes off into [20:52] other directions like glycogen which is [20:55] in the brain is not good or fat which is [20:58] even worse. [21:00] And bottom line your cell is now not [21:04] energy producing like it used to be. It [21:07] has now been reduced in terms of its [21:09] energy capacity. [21:11] What's that going to do? That's going to [21:13] reduce ATP generation. [21:16] Okay, that's step one. Now, step two, [21:21] there's this stuff called cortisol. [21:23] Cortisol comes from stress. Cortisol [21:26] comes from sleep deprivation. Cortisol [21:29] comes from exogenous gluccocorticoids [21:32] like steroids being given to people for [21:34] you know autoimmune disease or for uh [21:37] you know uh other uh uh ill illnesses. [21:42] Okay, that cortisol causes neurons to [21:46] increase in um metabolism causes them to [21:50] burn energy faster. [21:53] Okay, so you now you have an increased [21:55] ATP utilization. So you have a decreased [21:58] ATP generation. Now you have an [22:00] increased ATP utilization. [22:03] Now you've got an energy crisis inside [22:06] each cell. Now your ATP can't keep up [22:09] with the needs of the cell. And when [22:11] that happens, now you've got symptoms, [22:14] whether it's brain fog or irritability [22:18] or all the way to frank depression. [22:21] Okay. Now, step three. [22:26] There are these proteins inside each [22:28] neuron called amaloid precursor peptide [22:32] A. [22:34] Okay, it's a normal protein in all [22:37] cells. Every cell in your body has AP. [22:41] It needs to stay in solution [22:44] and in order for it to stay in solution, [22:46] it energy has to be applied to it in [22:49] order to keep it in solution. The minute [22:51] the ATP in the cell goes down, they come [22:54] out of solution and they start forming [22:58] um aggregates which we call plaques. [23:02] >> Yeah. [23:03] >> Okay. And those plaques damage the cell [23:07] which then start an inflammatory process [23:12] uh in the cells next door called the [23:14] microglea in order to clean up the [23:16] process. And now you've got plaques and [23:19] an inflammation and now you've got [23:21] neuronal cell death. [23:24] That's dementia. [23:26] So it starts with an ATP energy crisis, [23:31] moves through [23:33] plaque and inflammation to generate [23:36] neuronal cell death. Well, this is [23:39] problematic to say the least. And by the [23:41] way, anything that generates ROS's has [23:45] been associated with Alzheimer's. [23:47] Anything that increases ATP utilization [23:50] like stress, gluccocorticoids, fever, [23:53] autoimmune disease also increases [23:56] Alzheimer's. So, anything that increases [23:58] step one, anything that increases step [24:00] two ultimately leads to increased step [24:03] three and Alzheimer's. So to simplify [24:06] this in a couple of sentences for [24:08] someone that has no scientific [24:10] understanding and we're going to have to [24:12] cut a few corners here scientifically in [24:14] order to to for them to have a framework [24:16] to understand it. How would you give me [24:18] some sort of an analogy for it maybe in [24:20] the context of I guess a petrol station [24:22] and a car? [24:23] >> Yeah. So I mean if we're basically doing [24:25] petrol we're talking energy only. [24:27] >> Yeah. [24:27] >> Okay. So bottom line [24:30] your car runs on petrol. [24:33] >> Mhm. Okay, the petrol comes in, that's [24:37] the glucose, and the engine, okay, [24:40] powers pistons, and the pistons then [24:44] power an axle. [24:45] >> And the axle then powers wheels, and you [24:49] go. [24:50] >> Yeah. [24:50] >> Okay. But there are a lot of things that [24:52] have to go right for all of those things [24:55] to happen. [24:56] Like for instance, your energy the the [25:00] the gasoline has to get into the engine [25:03] in the first place. What if you have [25:05] carbon deposits on your intake [25:07] manifolds? And if you have a problem [25:09] with any one of those steps, you're [25:11] going to end up [25:13] with a jalapy instead of a sports car. [25:16] >> I mean, that's what we're seeing in the [25:17] United States. Over 7 million Americans [25:19] live with Alzheimer's, and this is [25:20] expected to double to almost 13 million [25:24] in the coming decades. Indeed it [25:28] >> because we haven't solved the problem. [25:31] >> That's the mechanism. What is what is [25:33] the cause? [25:34] >> Right? So we know we know that the cause [25:39] is environmental. [25:42] Now people say oh Alzheimer's is genetic [25:47] garbage. There is a genetic component to [25:50] Alzheimer's. I'm not arguing that. There [25:52] is. Okay. This is thing called APOE E4. [25:55] And if you have two copies of APOE E4 on [25:59] your genome, your risk for getting [26:02] Alzheimer's is nine times the general [26:05] population. That is absolutely true. I [26:08] don't disagree with that. So APOE4 is [26:11] not a good thing. I'm not arguing that. [26:13] Once upon a time in, you know, uh, [26:15] evolution, having two copies of ApoE4 [26:19] was good because it meant you got fat up [26:21] to your brain pretty fast. But we don't [26:24] need that right now. That's kind of a an [26:26] an old old news kind of pro of issue. [26:29] People who have double doses of APOE4 [26:33] are at higher risk. There is absolutely [26:35] no question about that. But they can [26:37] mitigate that risk if they change their [26:39] diet. Okay? they can eat a very lowfat [26:43] diet and res and improve their risk down [26:47] to the general population. [26:50] Okay? [26:52] Everything else in Alzheimer's is not [26:55] genetic. By the way, that genetic [26:58] component is only 5% of all Alzheimer's. [27:01] So that means 95% of Alzheimer's risk is [27:05] environmental. Now the question is what [27:07] in the environment? [27:09] Well, air pollution, [27:13] ionizing radiation, [27:15] microlastics. [27:18] Okay, there's nothing you can do about [27:20] any one of those three. [27:22] That's baked into the cake. You can't do [27:26] anything about those today. [27:28] What other things? Uh, sleep disordered [27:31] breathing, medications, [27:35] ultrarocessed food. [27:39] Okay, what about ultrarocessed food? [27:42] Fructose, my favorite, you know, hobby [27:45] horse, you know, the sweet molecule and [27:47] sugar. Low omega-3s, [27:51] so no, you know, fish, uh, eggs, [27:55] chicken, [27:56] uh, lack of fiber because fiber [28:00] suppresses inflammation. [28:03] Presence of emulsifiers. [28:06] Okay. B vitamins, lack of B vitamins, [28:10] particularly B6, B12, folate. [28:14] Okay, those things are all associated [28:18] with an increase in reactive oxygen [28:20] species. [28:23] You can manage those, you can mitigate [28:25] those [28:27] thereby increasing mitochondrial [28:29] function, increasing ATP generation and [28:33] preventing that cellular energy crisis [28:36] so that you don't end up behind the [28:39] eightball and you don't lose your [28:41] neurons. [28:42] >> When people tell me that Alzheimer's is [28:44] associated with having a sort of energy [28:46] crisis in the brain, [28:47] >> Mhm. [28:48] >> I'm increasingly hearing people talk [28:50] about ketones. It's just it's remarkable [28:53] the improvement in cognitive performance [28:56] that I feel when I'm fasted or I'm in a [28:58] ketogenic diet. Whereas if I'm in a if [29:01] I've been eating a lot of uh [29:03] carbohydrates [29:04] >> or sugar, [29:05] >> it's like my brain is like like [29:08] backfiring. Yeah. It's stumbling over [29:11] itself. [29:12] >> I'm not surprised. [29:14] You know, the the food industry tells [29:16] you, well, carbohydrates are energy. [29:18] Actually, that's not true. Carbohydrates [29:21] inhibit energy production. [29:23] >> How do you mean? [29:24] >> So there's this thing called a bomb [29:27] calorimeter and there's this thing [29:29] called a mitochondria. [29:31] >> They are not the same. A bomb [29:33] calorimeter, you throw food into the [29:36] bomb calorimeter, it explodes and it [29:38] gives off heat. Okay, there's, you know, [29:41] captures the heat, measures the heat. [29:43] And that's how we know, for instance, [29:45] fat burns at 9 calories per gram. [29:48] Protein burns at four calories per gram. [29:50] Carbohydrate burns at four calories per [29:52] gram. Which is why fat is more energy [29:55] dense than protein or carbohydrate, [29:58] which is how we all determine that fat [30:00] made you fat. [30:01] >> And the bomb calorimeter is also how [30:02] they determine if a bag of crisps or [30:05] chips or whatever you call it here is [30:06] 200 calories. Because if you put them in [30:08] there [30:09] >> Exactly. [30:09] >> it will release 200 calories of energy. [30:12] >> Right. Because a calorie is that amount [30:15] of energy that raises one gram of water [30:17] one degree centigrade. [30:18] >> Okay. [30:19] >> So it is a measure of physics. [30:20] >> It's a measure of heat generation. [30:22] >> Okay. [30:22] >> Okay. Mitochondria are not bomb [30:25] calorimeters. [30:27] They are not capturing heat. They are [30:30] giving off heat. They are capturing ATP. [30:33] No bomb calerimeter captures ATP. [30:37] Mitochondria capture and generate ATP. [30:40] Mhm. [30:41] >> Now, turns out 35 to 40% of what [30:44] mitochondria generate turns out to be [30:46] heat. That's why you have a body [30:49] temperature [30:50] >> is from that. And so you have ne you [30:53] will never have a 100% energy efficient [30:56] mitochondrian because if you did, okay, [30:59] you would have a temp body temperature [31:02] of, you know, room temperature, okay, [31:04] and you'd be dead. That's not the way it [31:07] works. Bottom line, [31:10] that transfer of food energy to chemical [31:13] energy losses energy in the process. [31:17] Okay? The bomb calorimeter can't tell [31:20] the difference, but your mitochondria [31:23] can. Ultimately, it's how efficient are [31:27] your mitochondria at converting food [31:29] energy to ATP. [31:31] The bomb calorimeter can't tell you [31:33] anything about that. [31:36] So [31:37] these two phenomena, you know, the [31:39] concept of calories as fuel and the [31:42] concept of calories as generators of ATP [31:46] have really very little to do with each [31:48] other. And it turns out that there are [31:50] individual things in food, the famous [31:53] one is fructose, but there are others, [31:55] lectins and others that actually inhibit [31:58] the mitochondrial generation of ATP. So [32:01] they actually inhibit your ability to [32:03] turn food energy into chemical energy. [32:06] If that's the case, even if they have [32:09] calories per gram in a bomb calorimeter, [32:11] if they're interfering with [32:13] mitochondrial function, [32:16] are they food? [32:19] What is the definition of food? [32:21] Substrate that contributes either to [32:23] growth or burning of an organism. Well, [32:24] I just told you fructose actually [32:26] inhibits [32:28] burning. Turns out fructose also [32:31] inhibits growth. It inhibits cortical [32:32] bone growth, tbacular bone growth, [32:34] cancellous bone growth. Bottom line, [32:37] people who eat ultrarocessed food end up [32:40] shorter. [32:42] We have the data for that. So if a [32:45] substrate that passes your lips does not [32:48] contribute to growth and does not [32:50] contribute to burning, is it a food? [32:55] >> I guess not. [32:56] >> I guess not. [32:56] >> What is it then? It's a poison. [33:00] >> And how much of our diet do you think is [33:02] poison? I think [33:03] >> fair amount. [33:04] >> Ultrarocessed food is loaded with them. [33:07] Real food is not loaded with them. You [33:10] can still find them, but not loaded with [33:12] them. Ultrarocessed food has in my [33:15] opinion, okay, five things wrong with [33:19] it. Too much sugar, which poisons your [33:23] mitochondria. Not enough fiber, which is [33:25] necessary to suppress inflammation. [33:29] Not enough omega-3 fatty acids, which [33:31] are necessary to build your brain and [33:33] conduct neurotransmission. Too many [33:35] emulsifiers, which leads to gut [33:38] inflammation and therefore systemic [33:40] inflammation. And then we can throw on [33:42] top of that the food dyes and food [33:44] additives which are mutagenic because [33:46] they're, you know, petroleum based. [33:49] That's ultrarocessed food. Ultrarocessed [33:52] food has been associated with every [33:54] single one of these diseases, including [33:56] every single mental health disease, [33:58] especially dementia. As we now have [34:01] seen, ultrarocessed food is specifically [34:04] associated with dementia. And even diet [34:06] sweeteners are associated with dementia [34:09] through this reactive oxygen species [34:11] pathway. [34:12] >> The sugar industry can't be your biggest [34:14] fan. [34:15] >> They're not. [34:17] I'm trying to help them though, you [34:19] know. I am trying to help them. Last [34:22] year um not too long after we had our uh [34:26] previous uh uh uh session uh I was the [34:30] uh keynote speaker at the fourth [34:33] international sugar reduction summit in [34:35] Atlanta, Georgia, [34:37] you know, Daniel in the lion's den. [34:41] And you know like why would they invite [34:43] me? I am you know I'm their conscience. [34:46] I said I told them I said I don't want [34:48] to be your enemy. I want to be your [34:49] conscience. I want you to do the right [34:51] thing. Okay? Ultimately, look, [34:55] ultrarocessed food is not going away. As [34:57] much as I would like it to, it's not [34:59] going to go away. And I'm not even sure [35:00] we want it to go away because we got to [35:01] feed 10 billion people by the year 2050. [35:04] And we're not going to have enough land [35:05] and ocean to do it. Ultimately, [35:08] ultrarocessed food is here to stay. It [35:13] is baked into the cake. [35:16] But [35:19] the question is, can we make [35:22] ultrarocessed food healthy? [35:26] Right now, they're not. Right now, [35:29] what's going on in the US, you know, uh, [35:32] food industry is doing the exact [35:34] opposite. It's making food disastrously [35:38] disease producing. The question is, [35:41] could you change that? And the answer is [35:44] yes, you can. In fact, we've done it. We [35:47] have been doing it. Um, five years ago, [35:50] I started working with an offshore food [35:54] company, Gratus, by the way. No money [35:57] changed hands. And so, they came to me [35:59] and they said, "Look, we know we're part [36:01] of the problem. We want to be part of [36:02] the solution. We know that Kuwait has an [36:05] 18% diabetes rate and an 80% obesity [36:08] rate, and we don't want to be the [36:10] reason. We want to be the help. [36:12] Can you help us [36:15] figure out how to make metabolically [36:19] healthy processed food? [36:23] So I convened a uh scientific advisory [36:26] team of five members and we worked for [36:29] the next three years. Looked at every [36:32] single pro process, every procedure, [36:36] every uh vendor, every ingredient, every [36:39] product. Sent them all for biochemical [36:42] analysis [36:43] to figure out what's going into the [36:45] food, what's coming out of the food. Is [36:47] the food metabolically healthy? What has [36:49] to be done? How does it need to be [36:51] re-engineered [36:53] to lead to something that is [36:56] metabolically healthy? And we came up [36:58] with a set of principles which we [37:01] published in Frontiers in Nutrition in [37:03] 2023. We call it the metabolic matrix. [37:06] And we basically collapsed it down to [37:09] nine words. Three clauses, nine words. [37:12] Protect the liver, feed the gut, support [37:15] the brain. [37:18] That's it. Those three things, any thing [37:22] that passes your lips that protects the [37:24] liver, feeds the gut, supports the [37:25] brain, is healthy, whether it's [37:28] ultrarocessed or not. Anything that [37:32] passes your lips that does none of the [37:34] three is poison whether it's [37:37] ultrarocessed or not. So, it's actually [37:39] not the ultrarocessing, [37:42] it's whether or not it contributes to [37:44] metabolic health. [37:47] So then we started re-engineering [37:49] products on in the KDDD line and they [37:53] have 180 items in their portfolio. We [37:56] have re-engineered [37:57] 10% of them, 18 products to become [38:00] metabolically healthy and we have tested [38:02] them on people in Kuwait to demonstrate [38:06] their metabolic benefit. [38:08] >> What is [38:08] >> and they are on the shelves now. But [38:10] isn't there is there a trade-off there [38:12] because those products might sell worse [38:14] now that they you've removed the the [38:16] stuff that makes them addictive? [38:18] >> No. [38:20] >> So, we didn't tell the public that we [38:23] were doing this. We just did it and they [38:26] just re they just introduced them to the [38:28] public and didn't tell them and they [38:32] didn't miss a freaking beat in terms of [38:35] sales and in terms of profits. [38:38] But I mean, tell them and it works. [38:41] >> Logically though, the the bad stuff [38:44] often makes the food more addictive. [38:48] >> And that's why this is so cool. It [38:52] didn't change consumption and it didn't [38:54] change profits. [38:58] And that's what they care about [39:00] ultimately. They don't care if [39:01] consumption changes as long as profits [39:02] don't. This can be done by other food [39:06] industries. [39:08] We're trying to get them on board. And [39:12] you know, I have lots to say about RFK, [39:15] but he has at least uh uh convened a [39:20] discussion on what's wrong with [39:22] ultrarocessed food, and we're hoping to [39:24] be able to enter that uh enter that [39:27] conversation. [39:28] >> RFK is the health leader, I guess, [39:32] >> head of head of health and human [39:33] services here in the United States. [39:35] >> You have a lot to say about him. I have [39:37] boatloads to say about him, most of [39:39] which uh you can't print. [39:43] >> What's what's your general opinion of of [39:46] him in his role in what he's doing, etc. [39:49] >> I have been asked to serve in this [39:51] administration four times and I've said [39:53] no each time. [39:55] And it's not because I don't want to be. [39:57] I do. But it's because my opinion and [40:01] his opinion would basically get me [40:02] thrown out after about 5 seconds. [40:04] >> What's the difference? [40:05] >> I wouldn't last. I wouldn't last. I [40:07] wouldn't last a second. [40:08] >> What's the difference in opinion? [40:11] >> All right. F RFK has five buckets in his [40:14] portfolio. [40:17] Food, I'm on board. [40:20] Pharma transparency, [40:22] I'm on board. [40:24] Chemicals in the environment, [40:27] I'm on board. [40:29] Water fluidation, [40:32] I'm partially on board. [40:34] You could get the fluoride out of the [40:35] water, but first you got to get the [40:36] sugar out of the food. You can't just [40:39] take the fluoride out of the water or [40:40] everybody will get Mountain Dew mouth [40:41] all at the same time. And that would be [40:43] a complete and utter disaster. Has to be [40:45] done in a coordinated public health PSA [40:50] driven campaign with everyone on board, [40:53] including the food industry and the [40:55] medical profession and government. [40:57] >> And to explain that, there's fluoride in [40:59] the water in the United States because [41:00] there's so much sugar. There's so much [41:02] sugar in the food. You wouldn't need [41:04] fluoride in the water if you didn't have [41:07] sugar in the food. [41:08] >> Just explain this. So, the United States [41:09] put fluoride in the water [41:11] >> to stop dental carries [41:14] >> which protects people's teeth, [41:15] >> which protects people's teeth. The point [41:18] is that only half the countries in the [41:20] world have fluoride in the water. The [41:22] others don't. And the reason is because [41:24] they don't have sugar in the food. The [41:26] only reason you need to put the fluoride [41:28] in the water is because the sugar in the [41:30] food causes the dental carries. Now the [41:33] fluoride reduces the uh uh prevalence of [41:37] dental carries by about 30 to 40%. [41:40] >> dental carries [41:41] >> cavities [41:42] >> cavities [41:43] >> by about 30 to 40%. Now the problem with [41:48] fluoride is at high dose [41:52] it can be a neurotoxin. [41:55] Now the goal is for uh public fluidation [41:58] to stay way below that. Now do they? [42:03] Not really. Sometimes they go above. So [42:07] normal fluoride concentrations when [42:09] you're doing it as a uh you know public [42:12] health effort should be between.3 and [42:15] 0.9 parts per million. Sometimes it goes [42:18] up to 1.5 parts per million and at 1.5 [42:21] it becomes a neurotoxin. [42:24] So, it's a purely dose issue, but one of [42:27] the reasons why people are screaming [42:29] about getting fluoride out of the water [42:30] is because it can be a neurotoxin. It's [42:33] not supposed to be in doses that are [42:35] appropriate, [42:37] but you know, [42:40] people don't look at the data. Point is, [42:42] you could get the fluoride out of the [42:44] water, but if you got the fluoride out [42:47] of the water and didn't take the sugar [42:48] out of the food, you know, we'd have [42:51] more dental carries, we'd have more [42:52] anesthesas, we'd have more teeth [42:54] pulling, we'd have more sepsis, we'd [42:57] have more dental abscesses, we'd have [42:59] more soldiers dying in the field. It's a [43:01] matter of national security. So, you [43:04] can't just do it. It requires a, you [43:07] know, coordinated uh uh effort. Is there [43:11] anything else you would disagree with [43:12] him on? [43:12] >> And then finally, bucket number five, [43:15] vaccines. [43:17] I am a pediatrician. [43:19] I am not a vaccine expert to be sure. I [43:22] am not an immunologist to be sure, but I [43:25] am a pediatrician and I know a lot about [43:26] vaccines and I know a lot about the [43:28] infectious diseases that those vaccines [43:30] were set up to basically prevent. [43:35] And I have taken care of all eight of [43:38] the diseases that we have child [43:40] immunizations for. MS, measles, rebella, [43:43] dtheria, ptus, tetanus, h flu, polio. [43:47] I've taken care of all eight of those. [43:49] And I will tell you right now, when I [43:51] take care of those, it's because of [43:53] someone who didn't get vaccinated. And [43:55] when I take care of those, okay, the [43:58] chances are 90% that that kid's going to [44:00] die. [44:02] RFK has not RFK says he can tell whether [44:07] someone has mitochondrial function [44:09] dysfunction just by looking at them. I'm [44:12] a mitochondria. [44:14] I can't. [44:18] Ultimately RFK's view of vaccines is um [44:24] shall we say his and his alone and is [44:28] not shared by the medical community. Um, [44:30] and I will not be part and parcel to [44:33] 3,000 measles deaths [44:36] because of a uh uh a blanket uh disdain [44:41] for uh vaccines and vaccine technology [44:44] which has worked beautifully to save 154 [44:48] million people on this earth over the [44:51] last 50 years. [44:53] >> Yeah. You know, I don't I don't talk [44:54] about this stuff a lot. Um, but [44:58] I was [45:01] I'm pretty sure at least one of my [45:03] siblings was saved by vaccination when [45:06] we were in Africa and we had uh malaria. [45:09] I think if I'm if I'm if I'm accurate [45:11] here, I had malaria, my brothers had [45:13] malaria, [45:14] >> and I think I was the one that didn't [45:16] get the malaria vaccine and then I ended [45:18] up in hospital as a at a very young age [45:21] with with malaria. I was like [45:22] hallucinating and stuff like that. Um. [45:25] Mhm. [45:25] >> And obviously as a as someone that was [45:27] born in Africa, [45:29] >> I think you probably have a clearer [45:31] understanding of the role that vaccines [45:34] can play in in good health. You know, [45:37] it's it's it's um it's quite concerning [45:40] because when you speak to any scient [45:42] like all of the majority of the leading [45:44] scientists, they're very extremely pro [45:47] provaccine. [45:49] But [45:49] >> we we've seen both sides. We've seen [45:52] what happens when there's no vaccine and [45:53] we've seen what happens when there is [45:55] vaccine. [45:55] >> And this is not to say that there can be [45:58] side effects to vaccines. Um the vaccine [46:01] manufacturers and scientists talk about [46:02] those side effects as well. But the the [46:04] thing that I think people should focus [46:05] on is the net um good that vaccines have [46:09] done for for the last centuries in [46:12] eradicating illnesses and avoiding um [46:15] disease. [46:16] And and my concern just to close off on [46:18] this point is my concern is if there is [46:20] to be some kind of outbreak [46:22] >> Mhm. [46:24] >> anytime soon. We're in such a cloud of [46:27] misinformation around vaccines that I I [46:29] worry people might make the wrong [46:32] decisions. Interestingly, there was a [46:33] measles outbreak in Texas recently and [46:35] RFK at one point did eventually prompt [46:38] the federal deployment of MM MMR [46:41] vaccines and expressed support for them [46:45] um because there was a big outbreak of [46:47] measles in in Texas very recently. [46:49] >> I'm going to tell you something now that [46:51] I have not talked about in public. I had [46:55] uh a half an hour with RFK on the phone [46:58] one-on-one back in December of 2024 [47:03] after the Trump uh uh election and RFK [47:07] was starting to convene his uh team and [47:10] I was asked to join it and so I got a [47:13] half hour with him and I will relate to [47:15] you now [47:17] for your public so that they understand [47:20] what that conversation entailed. [47:24] basically two threads. By the way, we're [47:27] supposed to talk about food. We didn't [47:29] talk about food. We talked about [47:30] vaccines. And here were the two threads. [47:33] First thread, [47:35] there are three [47:37] papers in the medical literature that [47:40] say that vaccines do more harm than [47:42] good. [47:44] And he quoted them at me. And I wrote [47:47] them down. And I went and looked them up [47:49] afterwards. And indeed they say what he [47:52] says they said [47:54] that it's unconscionable that [47:57] vaccines do more harm than good and [47:59] we're giving them to newborns. [48:04] Now it is true that those three papers [48:06] do say this. There are 50,000 that say [48:09] opposite. Okay. Second thing he said a [48:14] woman gives birth to a healthy baby. [48:17] that healthy baby gets a shot under the [48:20] skin and now that baby is not healthy [48:23] anymore. [48:25] That's a tort, [48:27] a legal tor. Okay? And you know, in [48:30] fact, you could argue that that is a in [48:33] fact a legal tor because you know duty [48:37] uh uh ne negligence you know all the way [48:39] down to damages. Okay. What's the [48:42] recommend what's the uh the remedy for [48:44] tort? I said lawsuit. He says, "Right, [48:47] but that mom can't sue because of the [48:50] Vaccine Indemnification Act of 1986. [48:53] So that mom basically has a damaged baby [48:57] and no recourse. That's [48:59] unconstitutional." [49:03] Those were the two threads of our [49:06] halfhour discussion. [49:08] No, [49:11] everything he said is absolutely true [49:14] and irrelevant. [49:19] They demonstrate basically confirmation [49:22] bias. [49:24] And he's a lawyer. He believes in [49:27] precedent. I'm a doctor. I believe in [49:30] probability. [49:32] There's always a risk benefit ratio [49:34] unless you're a lawyer in which case [49:35] there's only risk. And that's how he [49:38] sees the world. He sees the world as [49:41] risk. [49:43] I don't I wouldn't have lasted 5 [49:45] seconds. I think we're both on the same [49:49] page in terms of making sure people have [49:52] the right information as it relates to [49:54] probability. We, you know, everything we [49:56] do in our life is a factor of [49:57] probability. Whether I got in a taxi to [49:59] come here this morning. I I understood [50:02] the probability of that taxi crashing [50:03] into another car, but I decided to get [50:05] in the car and come here anyway. we all [50:07] deal with these, you know, risks every [50:11] single day. I want to say on this on [50:14] this point of of vaccines that um [50:17] there's obviously it's almost it's [50:19] become quite a political issue and [50:20] there's two there's two sides and you [50:22] know one side which is more of the RFK [50:26] side is incredibly skeptical um [50:29] >> and [50:31] and they have their opinion then there's [50:33] the other side which tends to be [50:34] dominated more by the science scientists [50:36] if I interview scientists a lot so I [50:38] know that pretty much everyone I've [50:39] interviewed that's a scientist would [50:41] agree that um you know there's there are [50:43] side effects but net net vaccines um are [50:47] very positive. [50:48] >> Uh it it depends on how you look at it. [50:51] Okay. If you look at it at a at through [50:54] a public health lens [50:55] >> Mhm. [50:56] >> Okay. The vaccines do more good than [50:59] harm. And [51:00] >> and if you look at it from a purely [51:03] individual lens, [51:06] then you say, "Wait a second. I didn't [51:10] get the disease, but I got the shot and [51:13] I have a vaccine injury. Therefore, I [51:17] have been subjected to a tort." I would [51:19] just like to close the section by [51:21] telling people that if there is a a [51:22] health crisis in the near future, some [51:25] kind of viral outbreak like we saw with [51:26] the pandemic, to make sure you get your [51:29] information from sources that are highly [51:32] credible and those sources should not [51:34] include um they should not include [51:37] frankly they should not include [51:38] podcasts. [51:40] >> No, they should [51:41] >> they should not include social media. [51:43] They should in they should include [51:44] places like I'd recommend checking out a [51:47] website called Consensus. So I have no [51:48] affiliation with them, but consensus [51:50] allows you to type in a question you [51:52] have about health vaccines, whatever it [51:54] might be. And it shows you what the um [51:58] sort of peer-reviewed studies say um and [52:01] what the consensus is. So for example, I [52:02] was I was using the website a couple of [52:04] days ago to try and understand something [52:06] >> and I typed in does this partic is this [52:08] particular thing healthy or unhealthy [52:10] and it comes up with this bar the team [52:12] will show on the screen and it shows you [52:13] how much of the scientific research [52:16] supports that idea. here. So, it said [52:18] like 70% of the scientific research says [52:19] it was positive. It said 25% said it was [52:22] neutral and 5% said we kind of don't [52:25] know or um or negative. And I think [52:28] that's a really great tool because [52:29] there's so much information out there [52:31] and there's so many studies and there's [52:32] one study that says this and another [52:34] that says this. So, using tools like [52:35] that I think is a much better way to [52:37] make your health decisions than podcasts [52:39] like this or um Tik Toks or Instagrams [52:43] or tweets. Because another thing I want [52:45] to say is you might not know this and [52:47] I'm just speaking directly to my [52:48] audience here, but you're currently in [52:51] an algorithmic echo chamber. And if and [52:53] if you want to know what I mean by that [52:54] is the algorithm that you have on any of [52:56] your feeds has been personalized to give [52:59] you more of the stuff that either scares [53:01] you, frightens you, concerns you, etc. [53:04] And if you if you want to prove this, go [53:05] and ask your best friend or someone [53:07] else, a member of the public, to look at [53:09] their feed. I had really I remember [53:12] probably two years ago I asked my best [53:13] friend if I could just look at his [53:14] Twitter feed [53:16] >> and it was completely different from [53:18] mine. Yes, for one there was no [53:19] Manchester United and it was all [53:20] Liverpool but then all of the [53:22] information was completely different as [53:24] well and so we're living in these echo [53:26] chambers where misinformation or you [53:28] know things we believe is being [53:29] reinforced positively or negatively. So [53:31] you need a strategy for information [53:33] especially as it relates to health. [53:34] >> I couldn't agree more. The fact of the [53:36] matter is these algorithms are designed [53:41] to keep you engaged. They are not [53:43] designed to keep you informed. [53:45] >> It's just that simple. Um the other [53:48] problem of course is confirmation bias. [53:50] If you have confirmation bias, you will [53:52] only seek out the information that [53:55] reconfirms your bias. [53:56] >> And that's what's about to happen. [53:58] >> That's what we didn't used to have, but [54:00] that's what we have now. That's what's [54:01] about to play out in the comment section [54:02] whenever we talk about subjects like [54:04] like vaccines is um there'll be a group [54:07] of people who have their own opinions on [54:09] it and you're entitled to your own [54:10] opinion and they will go at war to [54:13] confirm and prove that opinion and [54:14] there'll be another group of people that [54:15] have a different opinion and they'll go [54:16] war to confirm that opinion. What I what [54:18] I love and hopefully what I think my [54:22] audience understand me for is I try and [54:26] I try and remain open minded and that's [54:31] like a really hard thing to do [54:32] these days [54:33] >> to do. Yeah. [54:34] >> I saw a journalist the other day. They [54:35] said they were trying to place me [54:36] politically and they said we think [54:38] Steven is apolitical. And I think that's [54:41] probably an apt description of my [54:42] opinions because I have [54:43] >> I would consider that a high compliment. [54:45] >> It's an amazing compliment. I have [54:47] views, but I don't sign up to any [54:50] particular [54:52] like cult is the way I'd describe it. [54:55] And and you know you're in a cult when [54:57] your views 99% represent the person [55:01] who's also in the cult because logically [55:03] that should never be the case. [55:04] >> That should never be the case. I agree. [55:07] Um you know cults are uh part and parcel [55:09] of uh society. Unfortunately [55:12] >> I've watched so many entrepreneurs treat [55:14] sales like a performance problem. when [55:16] it's often down to visibility. Because [55:18] when you can't see what's happening in [55:19] your pipeline, what stage each [55:21] conversation is at, what's stalled, [55:23] what's moving, you can't improve [55:25] anything and you can't close the deal. 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I want to get [56:14] really practical tactical here with the [56:16] person that's listening right now and [56:18] they have me and you in their ears and [56:21] they know [56:23] that sugar is bad. They know [56:24] ultrarocessed food is bad. They still [56:28] are struggling with a little bit of fat, [56:32] other sort of diseases. They're probably [56:34] on the in on the trajectory to some form [56:35] of chronic disease, maybe Alzheimer's, [56:37] maybe dementia, maybe a form of cancer. [56:39] >> What do we have if we're talking direct? [56:41] Let's name her or him. Let's call her [56:44] Jenny. Jenny's listening right now. [56:46] Jenny and Dave. They're both sat there. [56:49] They're the average American. [56:52] What do we say to Jenny and Dave to get [56:54] them to [56:56] change their lives? The first thing that [57:00] you have to say to them is, "Who are [57:03] you? [57:06] Do you know? Do you know who you are?" [57:09] Because if they don't know who they are, [57:12] then nothing else is going to matter. [57:15] They have to be comfortable in their own [57:16] skin, and they're not. [57:19] The reason that they have glombmed on to [57:22] ultrarocessed food is it's providing [57:24] them [57:25] with a dopamine hit. [57:28] And it's probably the only thing that [57:32] even remotely gives them pleasure. [57:36] And if that's all the pleasure they get [57:38] in their lives, [57:41] you're never going to fix it because [57:42] that's all they've got. So the question [57:45] is [57:47] sorting your priorities [57:50] at at the at the individual level. [57:53] What's important to you? What's of [57:56] primary importance? Love, relationships. [58:01] What's of secondary importance? [58:04] Pleasure. food, drugs. [58:08] Okay? If you don't have any of the love [58:11] relationships stability [58:14] in your life, there's no amount of food [58:18] or drugs that's going to be able to make [58:21] up for that. [58:23] So, who are you? What is it that really [58:25] matters to you? And until you answer [58:28] that question honestly and [58:30] affirmatively, you're never going to get [58:32] past this. So, can let me role play as [58:35] Jenny and Dave. You've asked me who am [58:37] I. I am 30 years old and I work this [58:41] job. I don't job's okay. I don't love [58:44] it. It's not lighting me up. I'm single. [58:46] I'm living in this this city. And yeah, [58:50] I'm just, you know, trenling along kind [58:53] of like on the on the treadmill of life. [58:56] >> And how much stress are you under? [58:59] >> A lot of stress. [58:59] >> A whole lot of stress. [59:00] >> Every time I open my phone is stressful. [59:01] my emails, my work, there's this thing [59:03] going on with this person. I think my [59:05] mom's got a problem with this thing and [59:07] her health is deteriorating. [59:09] >> So, imagine what that's doing to the ATP [59:12] in your brain. [59:14] >> What's it doing? [59:15] >> It's depleting it like crazy. Number [59:17] one, you have mitochondrial dysfunction [59:19] from all the you ate and from the, [59:21] you know, unfortunately, from the uh air [59:24] pollution you've been breathing and from [59:25] the microplastics, you know, that have [59:27] basically taken over your brain. One [59:29] 200th of your brain right now, Stephen, [59:31] is microplastics whether you like it or [59:33] not. So Jenny and Dave probably have [59:35] more. Okay. And you eat well. They [59:38] don't. All right. So here we are. This [59:41] is this is the the substrate. This is [59:44] the base. The question is, how are we [59:47] going to improve their ATP generation? [59:51] How are we going to improve their [59:52] mitochondrial function? How are we going [59:54] to get those their neurons to start [59:57] responding properly? [59:59] That's the question. [60:00] >> And do you aim at stress as part of the [60:02] solution? [60:04] >> Yes, of course you have to. How can you [60:07] not? Let me give you another uh quick [60:10] clinical vignette. Recently, I uh had [60:15] the opportunity to have a an extended [60:17] conversation with um a hero of mine, Dr. [60:22] Vivic Murthy, who was the former surgeon [60:24] general of the United States. and we [60:26] were in London together and I finally [60:29] sat him down and I said, you know, [60:30] Vivic, I love your, you know, uh, [60:34] espousing of love that we ultimately [60:37] need to love each other to get over [60:40] these, uh, systemic societal travails [60:44] that we that that love is what's [60:47] missing. Here's the problem. You can't [60:49] love if your brain is inflamed. [60:53] You can't love if you can't love [60:56] if your brain is inflamed. [61:00] Of course, the reason for the inflamed [61:02] brain is the ultrarocessed food and all [61:05] the things we talked about, the reactive [61:07] oxygen species, the cortisol, etc. that [61:09] we talked about before. So, are you [61:11] saying people that are metabolically [61:12] unhealthy that are have inflamed brains [61:15] that are under stress [61:17] have a reduced ability to love? Yes, [61:20] it's exactly what I'm saying. [61:23] They can't love themselves and they [61:24] can't love anyone around them. [61:26] >> Explain the science there. [61:29] >> Serotonin. [61:30] >> What is serotonin? [61:31] >> Serotonin is a neurotransmitter [61:34] that is necessary for udeimmonia, for [61:37] being able to be content. Oxytocin is [61:41] the love neurotransmitter, the [61:43] reproduction neurotransmitter, the [61:45] safety neurotransmitter. Okay. the [61:47] cortisol [61:49] causes uh the uh methylation of the [61:52] oxytocin receptor. So now the oxytocin [61:55] can't work. So you can't feel safe. [61:58] And the serotonin is necessary to [62:02] basically suppress that inflammation in [62:04] the amygdala that's actually causing [62:08] the buckshot that you know the uh the [62:11] inability to surgically strike. like we [62:15] talked about before being that lousy [62:17] point guard. [62:18] So I said to him, "You can't love if [62:21] your brain is inflamed." And he thanked [62:24] me and he, you know, I thought that was [62:26] the end of that and I'm not going to [62:28] bother him anymore. [62:29] Two weeks ago, I got an email from Vivic [62:32] saying, "I've thought about what you [62:34] said and I'm halfway through your book [62:36] and let's talk." [62:38] >> You can't love if your brain is [62:39] inflamed. I was just looking at a study [62:41] that says high cortisol levels in a mum [62:43] during pregnancy can affect the baby's [62:45] oxytocin receptors, meaning they'll feel [62:47] less safe. [62:48] >> Exactly. Right. [62:51] And it's epigenetic. It happens even [62:53] before birth. [62:56] >> I'm trying to play out so I'm trying to [62:58] form a couple of hypotheses here around [62:59] what this might mean in practice. So I [63:02] mean in the case of the mother, if the [63:03] mother was under a lot of stress that [63:08] resulted in cortisol, then the baby's [63:10] oxytocin receptors, which are the [63:12] bonding chemical of of h within humans, [63:15] the bonding hormone is going to be [63:17] depleted. So if I had a really stressful [63:19] mother during [63:21] um my conception whatever that [63:25] >> during pregnancy yeah [63:27] >> there's a probability there's a causal [63:30] probability that I might be less good at [63:32] bonding with people [63:33] >> there we are that's exactly what we're [63:36] saying [63:37] >> but I guess also that can take place [63:38] after pregnancy whereas chronically [63:40] >> stress it's a it's a continual process [63:43] the question is can it be undone and the [63:45] answer is yes but [63:47] a lot of work [63:51] and you have to have the baseline [63:52] substrate [63:54] to be able to do it. There's a bit of um [63:57] what's the what's the term when [63:59] something becomes a little bit [64:01] self-fulfilling where it kind of [64:02] >> tautology [64:04] >> what I'm saying is if someone's lonely [64:06] extremely lonely and they are in a [64:08] single apartment alone which is [64:12] increasingly a lot of people [64:13] >> yes [64:14] >> then I basement [64:16] >> yeah but even even in major cities like [64:18] London and New York etc so many people [64:20] live in a little shoe box alone um and I [64:23] saw the studies that show the average [64:24] person used to x amount of friends to [64:26] turn to in a time of crisis. Now they [64:27] have on average it says like one or [64:29] zero. So loneliness is up. And then I [64:31] also saw some research that said when [64:33] people are lonely their body goes into a [64:36] state where they sleep worse, they're [64:38] more stressed. They're they're more uh [64:41] bitter [64:42] >> to people. [64:43] >> Yes. [64:43] >> And I can't remember the term for that, [64:45] but it's like it's like this heightened [64:47] sensitivity. And the thesis is that once [64:49] upon a time in an evolutionary context, [64:51] if you were if you lost your tribe, you [64:54] would have to be more on edge to [64:55] survive. [64:55] >> That's your amydala. [64:57] >> And if that's the case, then it means [64:59] that it would suggest that if you're [65:00] lonely, you're higher stress. Yes. [65:03] >> But if you're higher stress, you're more [65:04] likely to be lonely. [65:05] >> That's right. [65:06] >> Which is [65:07] >> that's the vicious cycle. [65:08] >> A vicious cycle. That's the term I was [65:09] looking for. [65:09] >> That's the vicious cycle. Absolutely. I [65:11] couldn't agree more. [65:12] >> That's what we're trying to undo. So [65:15] here's a question for you. Quiz. Yeah. [65:17] >> All right. And you know the answer. [65:19] >> Okay. [65:19] >> Okay. Because I've mentioned it already [65:21] on this podcast. [65:22] >> All right. You ready? [65:23] >> Yeah. [65:24] >> What is the difference between [65:26] loneliness and solitude? [65:30] >> Loneliness is [65:33] a lack of human connection and solitude [65:36] is being alone. [65:40] >> Well, both have a lack of human [65:42] connection. [65:43] >> I don't know. Tell me the answer. What's [65:44] the answer? [65:45] >> Serotonin. [65:46] >> Okay. If you're serotonin depleted, [65:48] you're lonely. If you're serotonin [65:50] replete, it's solitude. You're [65:52] comfortable in your loneliness. [65:55] You're happy that you're lonely [65:58] because you're not really lonely. You're [65:59] alone. [66:00] >> And how does that happen that I become [66:02] lonely and in terms of the serotonian [66:04] mechanism? [66:05] >> Well, you choose to be alone when you're [66:09] in solitude. But the point is that's [66:12] what you um want. That's what you chose. [66:16] You could be with other people. You've [66:18] chosen to be in solitude when you're [66:20] lonely. Okay. The reason even when [66:24] people are coming at you, even when [66:26] you're at a party and you are clearly [66:29] not lonely, you feel like you are. You [66:32] feel like you're there all by yourself [66:35] even though all these people are around [66:37] you. [66:38] >> What is serotonin? [66:38] >> That's and that's because you're [66:39] serotonin depleted. Serotonin is a [66:42] neurotransmitter. It's made from a amino [66:44] acid called tryptophane. Tryptophane is [66:46] the rarest amino acid in all of the [66:50] proteins that we ingest. It's the rarest [66:52] amino acid on the planet. It's found in [66:55] eggs, chicken, fish, not exactly [66:58] ultrarocessed food. So people who eat [67:00] ultrarocessed food at high rate are [67:02] going to be tryptophane deficient and [67:04] therefore serotonin deficient, are going [67:07] to be somewhat irritable and also [67:09] somewhat lonely. And what it does is it [67:12] inhibits the next neuron. It causes the [67:16] next neuron not to fire instead of [67:20] dopamine which causes the next neuron to [67:22] fire. They are very different. And [67:24] serotonin when it's at normal dose gives [67:28] you a feeling of contentment, [67:31] not necessarily happiness, but this [67:34] feels good. I don't want or need [67:37] anymore. [67:38] >> So it's almost the opposite of dopamine. [67:40] It's the exact opposite of dopamine. [67:42] Dopamine is this feels good, I want [67:44] more. And serotonin is this feels good, [67:48] I don't want or need anymore. [67:49] >> And serotonin is predominantly made in [67:51] the gut, 90%. [67:52] >> So 90% is made in the gut. The question [67:54] is does the gut serotonin get to the [67:56] brain? And the answer is through the [67:58] afrant nerve. So that aphrrent vagus has [68:02] to be functional and has to basically [68:04] conduct information from the gut up to [68:07] the brain in order to be able to [68:09] transduce that. That is what we call [68:12] intuition. That is called gut feeling. [68:15] >> So I need my vagus nerve to be healthy. [68:17] >> Yes, you do. Yes, you do. And there are [68:19] a lot of things that are causing that [68:21] vag nerve not to be healthy, including [68:23] all of the gut inflammation that we [68:25] talked about from the ultrarocessed [68:27] food. So, how do I make my Vegas nerve [68:28] healthy? [68:29] >> Eat real food. [68:31] >> What about those Vegas nerve stimulators [68:33] that everyone's banging on about? [68:34] >> So, they're interesting and they do have [68:39] benefits for seizure control. [68:42] Okay. For seizures, um the uh vagus [68:45] nerve uh for some reason transduces [68:48] information up and down that help [68:51] mitigate seizures. [68:54] No one's been able to demonstrate, to my [68:56] knowledge, that you can use a veagal [68:59] nerve stimulator to actually change [69:03] emotion. [69:04] >> I was looking at the research and it [69:06] says exactly what you described that a [69:08] meta analysis and long-term follow-ups [69:09] show a 30 to 50% [69:12] reduction in seizures for patients who [69:15] use veagal nerve stimulation. But [69:16] outside of that, in terms of depression, [69:18] the evidence is [69:20] >> modest, [69:21] >> meager, [69:21] >> meager. Yeah. around 15 to 25% show [69:26] which is above placebo. So it's small. [69:29] Uh and then with anxiety it's the same. [69:30] There's not there's only low quality and [69:33] small scale work. They do say though [69:35] that implanted vagus nerve stimulators [69:38] show the strongest evidence for epilepsy [69:40] and depression. But the bottom line is [69:42] um it works well for seizures as you [69:44] said um and there's still a lot unproven [69:46] as it relates to stress. Yeah. And [69:48] focus. [69:50] >> I wish they worked. I mean it would be [69:52] an easy you know you know and one thing [69:54] you learn from doing doing what I do [69:56] with this podcast is you learn that in [69:59] life there are really not many shortcuts [70:02] and everything that appears to be a [70:04] shortcut some device some contra [70:06] contraption that's going to fix things [70:08] actually either doesn't work is a scam [70:11] or has some hidden trade-off [70:14] >> right [70:15] >> and so it goes back to this really [70:17] important principle that I think [70:18] everybody listening should embody which [70:19] is there's no free lunch in life. If it [70:23] appears to be the the fast way, it's [70:24] probably fast way to something else. Uh, [70:27] and the slow way is the fast way. The [70:29] hard way is the fast way. This is kind [70:30] of what I've learned. Like I can try all [70:32] these things to try and trick to try and [70:34] not, you know, to try and be able to eat [70:36] sugar but be healthy. [70:38] >> And there's always some [70:40] trade-off. Like even a Zmpeek. [70:42] >> Exactly. [70:42] >> Everyone's talking about Zmp. [70:43] >> It's a band-aid, not a fix. [70:46] >> What do you think of a Zenek? [70:48] >> How much time you got? All right. Well, [70:50] depends what you think. [70:51] >> People ask me this all the time. Um, I [70:53] wear three hats. Okay. So, I'll put my [70:57] first hat on, my clinician hat. I'm glad [71:00] they're here. These GLP1 analoges, they [71:03] do work. I'm not saying they don't. They [71:05] do. And God knows if you have a BMI of [71:09] 40 to 45 and you have tried everything [71:12] else and nothing else works and it's a [71:14] matter of life and death, then I am glad [71:16] they're here. All right. All right. Now, [71:18] let me put my second hat on. My [71:20] scientist hat. Okay. Why do they work? [71:24] They work in two places. They work [71:26] actually at that nucleus encumbent which [71:29] I mentioned before, the reward center. [71:31] It actually seems to reduce reward. It's [71:33] one of the reasons why GLP1 analoges are [71:36] not just being used for obesity, but for [71:37] alcoholism, for drug addiction, [71:41] for many things, because they're [71:43] basically putting that reward system to [71:45] rest, which is a good thing. [71:48] Now we had a drug that did that back in [71:52] 2006. Put that reward system to rest. It [71:55] was called Ramanabant [71:57] trade name Amplia. And what it was was [72:01] an anti- [72:04] endocinabonoid. [72:05] It was an endockinabonoid receptor [72:07] antagonist. It was the anti-marijuana [72:10] drug. It was the anti-munchies [72:12] drug. And so it caused weight loss. and [72:15] it got released in the European Union. [72:18] The EFSA approved it in 2006 and within [72:22] two months of its hitting the market, [72:24] there were 21 suicides. [72:28] Okay? And the reason is because if you [72:30] suppress reward, ain't no reason to get [72:32] out of bed in the morning. [72:35] Okay? Now, the good news with these GLP1 [72:39] analoges is we've been looking for the [72:41] suicide signal and haven't seen it. But [72:44] we also looking for the depression [72:46] signal and we see that a lot. So it does [72:50] seem to be having the same effect. Maybe [72:52] not as severe as Romanoband but [72:54] nonetheless that's a downside for sure. [72:57] Okay. Now the second place it works GI [73:00] tract. It delays gastric emptying. It [73:04] slows food going through the elementary [73:07] canal especially the stomach. Okay? [73:10] That's why it works because you can't [73:12] eat more if your stomach's still full [73:14] because it didn't move it along. Okay, [73:18] that's good. Sort of. Except it gives [73:21] you all the side effects. The nausea, [73:23] the vomiting, the pancreatitis, the [73:25] gastroparasis. [73:27] Stomach turns to stone. 3.4% of all [73:30] people who take GLP-1 analoges get [73:33] gastroparasis. [73:34] And guess what? When you stop the med, [73:37] the gastroparasis doesn't go away. [73:40] And there is a lawsuit against Novo [73:42] Nordisk right now over gastroparasis [73:44] from GLP1 analoges. Not so good. In [73:49] addition, [73:51] you lose weight. Okay. What kind of [73:53] weight? Turns out half muscle, half fat. [73:56] Now, losing fat's good. Losing muscle is [73:59] not. Losing muscle is actually a risk [74:02] factor for early demise. Sarcopenia is a [74:06] risk factor for early demise. Now, what [74:08] else causes loss of equal amounts of [74:10] muscle and fat? Starvation. And that's [74:13] how the damn medicines work. They're [74:15] causing you to starve. Well, that's not [74:18] the best way to do this, people. [74:21] Also, [74:23] only one-third of people who take GOP1 [74:25] analoges actually respond. Twothirds [74:28] don't. They don't tell you about those. [74:29] They're only telling you about the [74:30] responders. And as soon as you stop [74:33] taking it, all the weight comes rushing [74:34] back plus some because you've only [74:37] bandated the problem. You haven't fixed [74:39] the problem. Also, not such a great [74:42] thing. And then finally, let me switch [74:44] to my third hat, my public health [74:47] advocate hat. Now, I did say these drugs [74:50] work. 16% mean weight loss. True. Okay. [74:56] If everyone in America [74:58] who qualified for a GLP-1 analog got it, [75:02] that would be $2.1 trillion to the [75:05] health care system, which is currently [75:07] 4.1 trillion. So that would be a 50% sir [75:10] charge over what we're currently paying. [75:12] And Medicare is going to go broke by the [75:13] year 2029 anyway without it. So you're [75:17] going to put another 50% on top of that? [75:20] How the hell are you going to pay for [75:21] that for a 16% weight loss? Conversely, [75:25] if we just got added sugar out of the [75:29] diet, out of the American diet to the [75:33] level of USDA guidelines of 12 teaspoons [75:36] of added sugar per day, no more. [75:39] We could get a 29% weight loss and save [75:43] $3.0 trillion. That's a $5.1 trillion [75:47] swing for double the weight loss and no [75:50] side effects. Which one do you think is [75:53] better? [75:55] >> Yeah, [75:56] >> that's how I feel about it. There was um [75:58] there was a recent animal research study [76:00] that suggested that things like a Zmpeek [76:02] semiglutides reduced cocaine self [76:06] administration in rats by roughly 30% [76:09] during treatment and cut their drug [76:11] seeking behavior by 62% after a period [76:14] of abstinence [76:15] >> which speaks to some of the things you [76:17] were saying there about JLP1 asex role [76:19] in the reward pathways in the brain. [76:21] >> Y [76:22] >> so [76:23] >> it's interesting [76:24] >> it's interesting but what is that [76:25] saying? It's saying that if you in these [76:27] rats, if they were given these GLP1 [76:29] antagonist, these isex, these [76:31] semiglutides, [76:32] >> they were less likely to be addicted [76:37] to things. [76:38] >> Yeah. I mean, [76:40] >> I wouldn't say less likely to be [76:41] addicted. They're already addicted. [76:43] They're they're basically choosing not [76:45] to continue to consume. [76:48] >> And again, [76:48] >> we don't know if they're addicted. [76:49] They're rats. But their behaviors [76:52] suggest that they're reducing the [76:54] consumption of the addictive substance. [76:57] >> And what what is this suggesting? This [76:58] means that [77:00] >> the JLP1 is doing what? [77:01] >> Well, number one, maybe the reason that [77:04] they're not consuming more is because [77:07] their stomachs aren't moving. [77:10] If your stomach's not moving, you don't [77:12] want to take any more, do you? [77:13] >> Maybe. Yeah. [77:14] >> Maybe it's that we don't know. That's [77:16] one possibility. Uh there are no there's [77:18] no question that the nucleus encumbent [77:20] has GLP-1 receptors. The vententral [77:22] tegmental area has GLP-1 receptors. And [77:25] I actually gave a talk at the um [77:27] California Society of Addiction Medicine [77:29] on OMPIC. So we know what, you know, the [77:32] the data show. We're still, you know, [77:36] researching this and trying to [77:37] investigate, figure out what it is. You [77:39] know, it that also wouldn't explain the [77:41] alcohol story because alcohol is not um [77:44] food, you know. It's it's liquid. So [77:46] it's, you know, it's a little different [77:47] and it definitely reduces alcoholism uh [77:50] uh alcohol consumption. So there does [77:53] seem to be an effect. Understanding what [77:55] dopamine does from what you said [77:56] earlier, it would appear that then these [77:58] like GLP1s, the Zmpex are dampening [78:02] dopamine's release in some way because [78:04] the rats when you talked about [78:05] motivation um and dopamine, the rats are [78:08] less motivated to go and get more [78:10] cocaine. [78:10] >> Correct. [78:12] >> And and that very well may be a good [78:14] thing. And for certain people, I think [78:16] we can absolutely use that uh phenomenon [78:20] to assist them. [78:21] >> Is that [78:22] >> perhaps that will be a good way to help [78:23] with drug interdiction? [78:25] >> Could that also mean that I become less [78:26] motivated period? [78:27] >> Yes. [78:28] >> Ah, that's not good. [78:29] >> Yes, that's what I'm worried about. [78:32] >> Going back to Jenny and Dave, Jenny and [78:34] Dave both have a little bit of extra [78:35] weight on them. We've talked about [78:37] really interestingly the whole idea that [78:39] serotonin, connection, love plays in a [78:41] tremendous role. um and stress. [78:45] And so Jenny and Dave now, they're going [78:46] to be thinking about their relationships [78:48] and friendships and going to that run [78:50] club as a way to help them downstream [78:54] with addictions and other things they're [78:56] struggling with. Is there anything else [78:57] that Jenny and Dave, who represent the [78:59] typical American, need to know to maybe [79:02] shed some of that body fat? [79:05] >> Number one, [79:07] ultrarocessed food is obesogenic. [79:12] Now, [79:14] if Jenny and Dave are under stress, if [79:17] Jenny and Dave are under financial [79:19] stress, if Jenny and Dave are under time [79:22] stress, [79:24] it's going to be really hard for them to [79:26] turn away from ultrarocessed food. [79:30] So, don't expect their weight to get any [79:33] better [79:34] >> until they fix their diet. The one thing [79:36] I am very sure of is that if you keep [79:39] eating the same [79:41] don't expect anything good to happen. [79:43] >> But it's hard. [79:44] >> It's very hard. Some practical types of [79:47] things. The first thing is that when [79:49] they go to the store, [79:50] >> Yeah. [79:51] >> don't go hungry. [79:52] >> Okay. Love that. [79:53] >> That's the first one. [79:54] >> I make that mistake a lot. [79:55] >> All right. The second thing, [79:56] >> why? Let's give some context there. [79:58] >> Oh, because if they're hungry, all bets [79:59] are off. They're done. [80:01] >> Because they're more likely to reach for [80:02] the bad stuff. [80:03] >> For bad stuff. because the bad stuff's [80:05] calling to them. And by the way, the bad [80:08] stuff's on the end caps of each of the [80:10] aisles of the grocery store. [80:12] >> And in the middle, [80:13] >> in the middle, well, any if you've gone [80:16] into the aisles, you've gone off the [80:18] rails because that's where the [80:20] ultrarocessed food is. [80:21] >> So, shop around the outside, which [80:22] >> have to shop around the outside, which [80:24] is where the real food is, [80:25] >> the fridges and [80:27] >> the fridges and the produce and the [80:29] meats and the dairy. Okay? Mhm. [80:33] >> Not to say that there isn't, you know, [80:35] ultrarocessed food and sugar hiding in [80:37] those places too, but if you've gone [80:40] into the, you know, uh, standard, you [80:43] know, aisles, um, you know, that's where [80:45] all the ultrarocessed food is hiding. [80:47] And, you know, 73% of the items in the [80:50] American grocery store are poison. [80:55] So, if you go into the grocery store, [80:57] you already have a problem. [80:59] >> So, the first one is don't go hungry. [81:00] The second one is to [81:04] >> stay on the outside of the [81:06] >> supermarket. [81:07] >> Yeah. Anything else for Jenny and Dave? [81:09] >> And most importantly, uh, you know, I [81:13] don't want them to have to read food [81:15] labels because that's kind of, you know, [81:19] out of bounds. Okay. But they should [81:22] basically um, if a food has a label, [81:25] it's a warning label. [81:28] That's how they should look at it. Okay. [81:31] And if a and if any if any food has a [81:35] sugar in the first three items, the [81:37] first three ingredients, it's dessert. [81:41] That's how they should look at it. [81:44] So, you know, Chinese chicken salad is [81:48] dessert. [81:49] >> I, you know, the other day I looked at [81:50] my friend was drinking a can of um [81:53] Coca-Cola. [81:55] >> Mhm. [81:55] >> And I picked it up and I I thought, you [81:57] know, I've not seen one of these in a [81:58] while. And I looked at the the back of [82:00] it and it said the sugar quantity in it [82:03] was something like 40% in that region. [82:06] >> So it was 39 grams in a in a can. Yeah. [82:09] No, it's right. [82:09] >> I was like, so 40% of it [82:12] >> is sugar [82:13] >> is just sugar. [82:14] >> Correct. [82:15] >> And people are just [82:17] >> There you go. [82:18] >> No wonder. [82:19] >> That's why we have a fatty liver disease [82:21] pandemic. [82:23] >> And sugar's sugar's fundamentally linked [82:25] to things like cancer as well, right? [82:27] >> Yes. Absolutely. [82:29] And we know why now we know how you know [82:31] through what mechanisms. [82:33] >> What are what are the mechanisms [82:34] >> for cancer? [82:35] >> Yeah. [82:36] >> Okay. So first of all ins anything that [82:38] makes insulin go up in increases your [82:40] risk for cancer because insulin is a [82:41] growth factor. Okay. Secondly because [82:43] insulin causes mitochondrial [82:45] dysfunction. Okay. It increases these [82:49] other phenomena like for instance the [82:51] pentos phosphate shunt and the um uh [82:54] randle cycle and the denoval lipogenesis [82:57] which is what cancer cells need to be [82:59] able to multiply and divide. Okay, so [83:02] it's basically feeding the cancer. [83:05] Number three, certain cancers, [83:07] particularly pancreatic cancer, have an [83:09] enzyme in them called transits. And what [83:12] that can do is that can take fructose [83:14] and turn it into glucose in the cancer [83:17] cell only. So that when you're actually [83:19] consuming sugar, you are feeding the [83:21] cancer specifically. Yet what what do we [83:24] give cancer patients? Ensure, which is [83:26] like straight fructose. So you are [83:28] actually feeding the cancer. So that [83:31] that that's like ridiculous. Okay. In [83:34] addition, because fructose interferes [83:37] with mitochondrial function, okay, that [83:40] sends a feedback mechanism to the rest [83:43] of the cell to divide [83:46] because dividing cells are in growth [83:49] phase. They don't have mitochondria. [83:51] That's why cancer cells don't have [83:52] mitochondria. That's why fetal cells [83:54] don't have mitochondria. Anorobes don't [83:56] have mitochondria. They grow the [83:58] fastest, you know, provided that the [84:01] conditions are right. So bottom line, [84:04] anything that interferes with [84:05] mitochondrial function puts you at risk [84:07] for cancer. [84:09] >> And are we seeing cancer is growing [84:11] there? The incidence of people getting [84:13] cancer is that's growing. [84:14] >> Oh, absolutely. And people getting [84:16] cancer earlier and earlier especially [84:18] colctal cancer. My god, you know the [84:21] mean age of colorctal cancer used to be [84:24] 50 to 55. [84:26] It is now we are seeing patients with [84:29] you know colurectal cancer in their 30s [84:31] and early 40s. [84:33] This is why [84:34] >> because of because of [84:35] >> because of sugar. That's a huge problem. [84:38] >> It is a huge problem. [84:39] >> So that's what I would suggest Dave and [84:41] Jenny do to start. Okay. But ultimately [84:44] they have to get their sugar and [84:47] ultrarocessed food consumption under [84:48] control. And the question is can they do [84:51] it alone? [84:52] Chances are to be honest with you they [84:55] probably can't. And the reason is [84:57] because they're sugar addicted and [84:59] because the food industry's basically [85:01] made it impossible for them to avoid. [85:04] That's what we have to fix. We have to [85:07] allow them the capability of being able [85:09] to access real food. This is why I'm so [85:13] upset with what's going on with this uh [85:15] argument here in the United States over [85:17] SNAP. Are you familiar with SNAP? [85:18] >> No. [85:19] >> SNAP is the Supplementary Nutrition [85:21] Assistance Program, SNAP, [85:24] also known as food stamps. [85:26] Okay, [85:28] I actually testified in front of [85:31] Congress, in front of the House [85:32] Appropriations Committee last year to [85:36] fix SNAP [85:38] now to get soda off SNAP [85:43] because soda is like the worst thing and [85:45] it's also the thing that most people use [85:48] their SNAP dollars, you know, their SNAP [85:51] vouchers to uh to purchase and it's [85:55] killing [85:56] And so I don't think soda should be on [85:58] SNAP. And so what I did was I testified [86:01] basically explaining the science, you [86:03] know, in Congress. And I said that what [86:05] we need to do is take the money that by [86:09] banning soda sales on SNAP. If people [86:11] want to spend their own money on soda, [86:13] that's their business. But we shouldn't [86:16] be, you know, using a federal government [86:18] subsidy program to subsidize their [86:21] death. We should take the money that's [86:24] saved from the soda sales and utilize it [86:27] to improve the nutrition of those same [86:30] people, you know, real vegetables, [86:34] dietary supplements, uh, fiber, water, [86:39] okay, things that will be healthy for [86:41] them. In other words, divert the monies. [86:45] They didn't hear that. The Republicans [86:47] are trying to basically gut snap. [86:50] They're trying to get rid of it as an [86:52] entity entirely. And if they don't can't [86:55] gut it, they will basically make it so [86:58] that they take the soda away, which is [87:01] good except it's not going to improve [87:03] their the rest of their nutrition [87:06] because they're basically just going to [87:08] take that money and repocket it. So, how [87:11] you, you know, set these uh legislation [87:15] uh uh uh agenda items up is super [87:18] important. And right now this [87:20] government's not doing it. [87:22] >> Just give me 15 seconds to explain how [87:24] you can build a viable business online. [87:26] The people I see winning in life don't [87:28] have a perfect plan. They just take the [87:29] first step and then the next and then [87:31] they keep going. They stay obsessed and [87:33] they stay consistent. And Standtore, a [87:35] platform I co-own and one of our [87:37] sponsors is the best first step to help [87:39] turn your knowledge into income. It only [87:42] takes a couple of minutes to launch your [87:43] business and start selling digital [87:45] products, coaching, memberships, or [87:47] communities online without any tech [87:49] headaches or endless setup. Thousands of [87:51] entrepreneurs, creators, and risktakers [87:53] use Stan to take control of their [87:55] future. Because Stan is for [87:57] entrepreneurs, for those willing to put [87:59] in the work and bet on themselves. If [88:01] you're ready to start building, join us. [88:04] Launch your business today with a free [88:05] 14-day trial at [88:07] stephvenbartlet.stan.store. [88:12] the the messages and emails that you get [88:14] from people that have heard you on [88:15] podcasts or have read your books or seen [88:17] your work in other places. What is the [88:19] the typical question that those people [88:22] asked? If you had to summarize the [88:23] question into one question, what is it [88:26] that people ask you the most? [88:30] >> Uh, is juice healthy? [88:33] >> Really [88:33] >> serious. [88:35] That's probably the most common [88:37] question. You say sugar is bad, but [88:39] isn't juice healthy? [88:40] >> Is juice healthy? [88:41] >> Juice is not healthy. Fruit is healthy. [88:44] So what's the difference between fruit [88:45] and juice? The fiber. [88:48] Okay, fruit has fiber. The fiber reduces [88:52] the rate of absorption from the gut into [88:54] the bloodstream. [88:56] And in doing so, you reduce the insulin [88:59] response, you reduce the glucose [89:00] response, you basically protect the [89:03] liver. And because you've prevented its [89:07] early absorption, it goes further down [89:09] the intestine where the microbiome can [89:11] chew it up for its own purposes, thus [89:13] feeding the gut and generating short- [89:16] chain fatty acids which are therefore uh [89:18] metabolically beneficial, [89:19] anti-inflammatory, anti- Alzheimer's. [89:22] Okay? And the fiber acts like little [89:24] scrubbies on the inside of the colon to [89:26] get rid of colon cancer cells. So you [89:28] get all sorts of benefits from the fiber [89:31] in the fruit, but as soon as you juice [89:34] it, you've thrown the fiber in the [89:35] garbage. And so all you now have is [89:38] sugar water. So eat the fruit, don't [89:41] drink the juice. Problem is that's you [89:44] know what that's not what the food [89:46] industry is selling. [89:47] >> What if I put the fruit in a blender and [89:50] then instead of throwing out the gunk, I [89:52] keep all the little bits in there. So [89:54] what happens is that the blades in the [89:57] Brevel or the Vitamix or the Neutra [89:59] Bullet or you know whatever you use to [90:01] make your smoothie, those blades are [90:03] shearing that fiber into smitherreens [90:07] into such short pieces that it can't [90:11] actually act as a lattice work to [90:14] sequester and prevent that absorption. [90:16] So the rate of absorption in the [90:19] intestine is just as fast and so the [90:21] fructose and the glucose will still get [90:23] to the liver just as uh uh fast as it [90:26] did before when it was juice. So that's [90:28] not the answer. So uh making a smoothie [90:32] out of it is not the answer. I was [90:34] looking at the top comments from our [90:35] last conversation and they're all [90:37] extremely [90:39] I'd say similar but they're they're all [90:41] incredibly inspiring. Someone here has [90:43] written the top comment which um I shall [90:45] pre I shall record the screen so Jack [90:47] can throw it on the screen. Says, [90:48] "Stephen, I discovered Robert 3 years [90:50] ago after my doctor told me I was [90:52] pre-diabetic. 3 years on, my blood [90:54] levels are completely normal and [90:55] everyone tells me how good I look [90:57] recently. This man should be on every TV [90:59] in the world, but the food industry is [91:01] trying to shut him up. Follow the work [91:03] and you will change your life like he [91:06] changed mine." Stuart J, 59 years old, [91:10] male in the UK. That's very heartening. [91:12] I'm glad to hear that. Good for you, [91:14] Stuart. [91:15] >> My friend was diagnosed with stage four [91:17] prostate cancer and given one year to [91:19] live. He found do Dr. Lustig and [91:22] rigorously followed his advice. Keto [91:25] diet, intermittent fasting, regular [91:26] walking. That was two years ago. He's [91:28] now in remission. The cancer is gone. [91:32] I was diagnosed with pre-diabetes, [91:34] fibromyalgia. [91:36] >> Mhm. [91:36] >> And decided to cut out all the sugar, [91:38] including fruit. Not only did I lose 60 [91:40] pounds in under a year, but my pain went [91:43] from 10 to 1 to two. [91:44] >> Wow. [91:45] >> I had more energy, my A1C dropped to [91:48] normal levels, and I went from being [91:51] fully disabled to going back to work [91:53] full-time. Cutting out all the sugar is [91:55] hard. I won't lie. It's also a constant [91:57] constant battle, but it is so worth it. [92:01] Wow. [92:03] And lastly, I listened to this podcast [92:06] last year. I made a decision on December [92:08] the 28th, 2023 to stay away from all [92:11] candy, brownies, maple, walnut, scones, [92:13] and all desserts. You get the idea. It [92:15] is now approaching December 28th, 2024. [92:19] And besides re-watching this video, I [92:21] have made another commitment to do the [92:23] same thing I did last year. It's a shame [92:25] that 73% of what's in the aisles in the [92:28] grocery store have hidden sugar in it. [92:30] And so I haven't gotten radical about [92:33] it, but the changes I've made have made [92:36] me feel terrific. [92:39] Dr. Robert is the cat's meow and he has [92:43] a giant part of in me getting me back [92:46] purring. I'm 68 and play 5 days a week, [92:51] 2 to four hours a day pickle ball. [92:54] >> Wow. [92:54] >> I love the choices I've made. I love [92:56] you, doctor. [92:58] >> A You know what? I love you, too. [93:02] And I'm 68. [93:07] Maybe May maybe when I go to the UK, [93:11] we'll have a date. [93:12] >> Well, that's Leslie. She's a She's quite [93:14] a pretty [93:14] >> Oh, very nice. [93:17] >> How does that make you feel? [93:19] >> Um, [93:21] very heartened. [93:22] >> I can see the the emotion in your face. [93:24] >> Yeah. No, very heartened. But, but you [93:26] know, the problem is not fixed. [93:29] the problem's fixed for each of these [93:31] people, but the problem is not fixed. [93:33] And because the problem's not fixed, um [93:36] I still have a job to do. So, it it [93:39] gives me more um uh strength to do it. [93:43] It gives me more purpose and it gives me [93:45] more reason to do it, but you know, the [93:47] problem is not fixed. [93:49] >> Do you think one of the most impactful [93:52] things that we could all do for our [93:54] health is just to reduce our sugar [93:55] consumption? That'd be that's that's job [93:58] one. Okay. Uh there are many things, but [94:01] without question, that's the easiest [94:03] one. And to be honest with you, the food [94:06] industry should be helping us do that. [94:08] The only reason the sugars in the food [94:10] is because they wanted it there. They [94:12] put it there on purpose because they [94:14] knew when they add it, you buy more. [94:16] >> And exercise, how does that impact my [94:20] decision to reach for sugar or not reach [94:22] for sugar? [94:23] >> Well, it doesn't really impact your [94:25] desire. does desire to reach for sugar. [94:28] It has its own metabolic benefits. I'm [94:31] totally for exercise. Don't get me [94:33] wrong. I am completely for exercise. [94:36] Exercise does many good things, but [94:38] burning calories is not one of them. [94:41] Okay? People think, "Oh, uh, you know, [94:44] exercise to work off the donut that I [94:46] ate." Wrong. [94:49] Forget it. That's not what it's about. [94:51] What does exercise do? Exercise [94:53] increases mitochondria. And that's good [94:56] because you need increased mitochondrial [94:58] reserves in order to make all that ATP. [95:01] Exercise increases brain trophic factors [95:04] which are necessary for cognition. And [95:06] it's been shown now that exercise is one [95:08] of the primary u methods for mitigating [95:12] the risk for dementia. Okay. It [95:14] increases brain derived neurotrophic [95:16] factor. It increases leptin. All of [95:18] these are necessary to promote [95:20] synaptogenesis and even increase [95:23] neurogenesis, more neurons, you know, so [95:26] that they don't die. So, I'm all for [95:29] exercise. Exercise also increases muscle [95:32] mass and muscle mass, you know, uh is a [95:36] mitigating factor for early demise. Like [95:39] I said, sarcopenia is a risk factor for [95:41] early demise. So, exercise is the way to [95:44] undo that. Having said that, none of [95:47] that had anything to do with weight [95:48] loss. Okay? So, if you think exercise is [95:52] going to make you lose weight, you are [95:56] deluded. You are under a delusion. You [96:00] have adopted the calorie hypothesis. I [96:03] am here to dispel. I am here to destroy [96:07] the calorie hypothesis. A calorie is not [96:10] a calorie. [96:12] So many of the people that are listening [96:14] to this conversation right now, if [96:16] they're in the United States or if [96:17] they're in other parts of the world that [96:18] have similar health stats, are diabetic [96:22] or pre-diabetic. One in 10 people [96:24] worldwide have diabetes. And in the [96:27] United States, one in three to four of [96:29] adults that are listening right now are [96:31] pre-diabetic. Even if you don't have a [96:35] huge amount of fat on your body, you [96:36] >> It's actually 40%. Four out of 10, [96:38] >> which is crazy. Yeah, [96:41] >> that's right. [96:42] >> It means that almost half of the people [96:44] listening right now, whether you know it [96:45] or not, could well be pre-diabetic if [96:48] you fit into the statistics that we we [96:50] have here. [96:53] >> I mean, [96:56] terrifying. [96:57] >> Oh, yeah. So for those people that are [97:00] pre-diabetic that have just found out [97:01] because there was I asked this question [97:02] because there is a guy here that says [97:05] his doctor's just um told him he's [97:07] pre-diabetic and he's listening [97:08] listening to the show probably again. [97:10] >> So I wanted to offer him something. His [97:12] doctors just told him that he's [97:13] pre-diabetic. What should he be doing? [97:16] >> Right. First thing get rid of all [97:19] ultrarocessed food from your diet. [97:21] >> Okay. [97:22] >> And in the process you will have gotten [97:23] rid of all the sugar from your diet. [97:25] That's the first thing. see how that [97:28] works. [97:29] Okay? Spend two weeks doing just that. [97:33] If that works, fantastic. If that [97:37] doesn't work, add add some exercise. [97:41] Walk [97:43] your dog. [97:45] >> Okay. So, on the first point, should he [97:46] be using a glucose monitor to help him? [97:49] Because people can get on Amazon or [97:50] these other websites very, you know, $ [97:52] 20, $30, you can get a glucose monitor [97:54] for your arm. [97:55] >> Yeah. So I am for glucose monitors and [97:58] the reason is because they are a sub [98:00] substitute a proxy for insulin. When the [98:03] glucose goes up that means the insulin [98:05] goes up and it's the insulin that really [98:07] makes the difference. So we have [98:10] documentation of the fact that by [98:13] monitoring your own glucose [98:16] concentration you can see improvements [98:19] in metabolic health down the line. You [98:22] can food log. You can use the glucose [98:25] monitoring. You don't need to do glucose [98:27] monitoring. You can just do it with the [98:28] food logging and it will still work. [98:31] Bottom line, there are a whole bunch of [98:33] scientists who are against using glucose [98:36] monitors for non-diabetics and they [98:39] write about this routinely. They seem to [98:41] write about it always in the New York [98:43] Times. [98:44] I am completely 180 degrees opposite on [98:48] that. I think it is a very good idea. [98:50] The reason that they say it is a bad [98:52] idea is because if you're using the same [98:56] uh outcome variables as for diabetes, [98:58] time in range, time above range, time [99:01] below range, well, these are [99:02] non-diabetics. So, of course, all of [99:05] those numbers are going to be in the [99:06] center. They're going to be in the time [99:08] in range. So, it looks like there's no [99:10] benefit to that. Okay, that's not the [99:13] point. The point is the downstream [99:16] outcomes which come 3 months later. [99:19] They're not looking at that. We have [99:20] those data. We are looking at that and [99:23] the data are very good. Do [99:25] >> you know what Joe I think is really [99:26] really useful with those CGMs, those [99:28] continuous glucose monitors that you can [99:29] buy online super cheaply, is they just [99:32] educate you on the impact that different [99:36] foods you might have thought were [99:37] healthy, like the juices we talked [99:38] about, [99:39] >> like rice. [99:40] >> Yeah, like r Oh my god. White rice. [99:41] That's actually one of the big things I [99:42] learned. You know, there's two things [99:43] that shocked me. Three things that have [99:45] shocked me over the last couple of years [99:46] that I thought were healthy. Mh. So, I [99:48] grew up thinking that orange juices were [99:50] healthy. I I remember being a young kid [99:52] and getting the Sunny Delight out of the [99:53] the fridge and like gugging it because [99:56] I'd seen on the advert it said vitamin C [99:59] or something. [99:59] >> Yep. [100:00] >> And I thought, "Oh, vitamin C. Good. [100:01] Glug it." Um, I've come to learn [100:04] >> that was that that was their subtrifuge [100:07] and you were a victim. [100:08] >> I was a victim and I would like [100:10] compensation. [100:12] Sunny D. I think the entire uh you know [100:15] UK population US population deserves [100:18] compensation. [100:19] >> There's a young lady in the comment [100:21] section um who watched our conversation [100:22] last time. She said a quote from this [100:25] doctor that I loved and I've never [100:27] forgotten is any food that is linked to [100:30] a television commercial should not be [100:32] consumed. Brilliantly said and a great [100:35] boundary to put in place. [100:37] >> Yep, that's right. [100:38] >> Any food that is linked to a television [100:40] commercial should not be consumed. It's [100:41] so true. They don't put cucumbers in [100:43] television commercials. [100:44] >> Nope. [100:45] >> Not enough um uh uh marketing uh uh uh [100:50] money. Not enough uh u margin. [100:53] >> So Sunny D. So orange juices generally I [100:55] don't drink any juices anymore. I [100:57] haven't for years now. The other one was [100:58] white rice. I thought that was healthy [101:00] growing up. Thought it was really really [101:01] healthy. And then I did a continuous [101:03] glucose monitor with a company that I'm [101:04] an investor in called Vizoi. Yes. and [101:07] and it gave me this it was like it was [101:09] horrific the um impact on my like gut [101:12] microbiome and my my glucose levels. And [101:14] the third one was tomato ketchup. [101:17] >> I didn't know there was so much bloody [101:18] sugar. [101:19] >> Oh yeah. Yeah. [101:20] >> In in most ketchups. [101:21] >> In fact, Hines ketchup is half high [101:25] fructose corn syrup. [101:26] >> Madness. And that's the I think that's [101:28] the value of getting a continuous [101:29] glucose monitor, even if you just run it [101:31] for 14 days, is you'll learn your [101:34] relationship with these things. You [101:35] frequently eat, and most of us are [101:37] frequent eaters. We eat the same kind of [101:38] things. Um, [101:40] >> and you can make some trades. What is [101:42] the most important thing we haven't [101:43] talked about that we should have talked [101:44] about, Robert? [101:45] >> I know we haven't talked about [101:48] psychedelics. [101:51] >> What would you like to talk about with [101:52] psychedelics? [101:54] >> Psychedelics are serotonin. [101:57] a big dose, a big glug of serotonin all [102:01] at once. What serotonin does is it [102:05] provides you with this sense of [102:08] complacency, of udeimmonia, of [102:11] contentment. [102:12] Serotonin is necessary to rewire [102:16] areas of the brain. You can actually see [102:18] it on um on MRI. It's actually leading [102:21] to synaptic rewiring. Think of it this [102:24] way. So, can I just confirm that just on [102:26] one point? You're not you're not saying [102:27] that psychedelics create serotonin. [102:29] You're saying that they are the same. [102:31] >> They're serotonin mimicker. [102:33] >> Okay. Yeah. [102:34] >> They mimic serotonin. [102:35] >> Yeah. [102:36] >> Think of it this way. You live [102:39] uh on a mountain, okay, with snow and [102:44] you have to every week go down to the [102:47] general store at the base of the [102:49] mountain. and you ski down there. And [102:51] you ski down there and you ski down [102:53] there and the snow falls and you ski [102:56] down there and soon what you've done is [102:59] you've created ridges in the snow for [103:03] you to get down the hill and they freeze [103:08] and soon the only way to get down the [103:11] hill [103:13] is through the ridges that you've [103:14] created. You are now basically in a rut. [103:18] You have trapped into that path. There's [103:22] no other way out your house other than [103:25] those ridges that have frozen in place. [103:30] That's what's happening in your brain. [103:32] You can't unthink your way out of it [103:36] because that's the only way you know. [103:42] Psychedelics are like a huge enormous [103:45] blizzard filling in the ruts, filling in [103:49] the ridges. So, you end up with a [103:51] pristine, you know, uh, snowbank for you [103:54] to be able to basically ski any which [103:57] way you want. It's your way out of your [104:01] rut. [104:03] And what we have in America and UK too [104:07] is a whole lot of people with a set of [104:09] belief systems that have put them into [104:11] ruts that they can't think their way out [104:13] of. Now, can this be done without [104:17] psychedelics? Absolutely. But it's hard. [104:20] Psychedelics are a way to, [104:24] shall we say, hack that belief system [104:28] concept and allow you to rethink your [104:31] own life and the life of the um people [104:35] around you and how you interact with [104:37] them. And um we need more research in [104:42] this to solve mental illness and also uh [104:47] improve uh the u well-being of um you [104:52] know sizable proportion of the [104:53] population. [104:54] >> I'm I'm a big fan of uh the research [104:56] taking place with in the psychedelic [104:59] field. I actually spent a year of my [105:01] life in what I believe is the biggest [105:04] psychedelics company in the world as an [105:06] investor and then as a director um in a [105:09] capacity where I was helping to drive [105:12] fundraising through through marketing [105:15] and then the company is now a public [105:16] business that's doing a lot of the [105:17] clinical studies. So [105:18] >> which one is it? [105:19] >> It's a Thai life sciences. [105:20] >> Uhhuh. [105:21] >> I obviously Compass Pathways as Well, [105:23] I'm an investor in that company and uh [105:25] >> I'm a big fan of what MAPs are doing as [105:27] it relates to using these these [105:29] molecules for mental health disorders [105:31] and treatment resistant depression, [105:32] PTSD, anxiety, etc. And it's so shocking [105:35] to me that that you know, it's taken so [105:38] long to [105:40] >> Yeah. Well, you know, they got a bad rap [105:42] from Nixon, you know, back in the 1970s. [105:45] And I understand why. By the way, no one [105:47] should do psychedelics alone. [105:49] >> Yeah. [105:49] >> You do them with a guide. you do them [105:52] with someone you completely trust [105:55] where safety is paramount [105:58] >> and um uh they can be really remarkable. [106:01] >> And we talk about set and setting which [106:03] is hopefully we'll they'll be done in [106:05] clinical settings with a as you say with [106:07] a practitioner. [106:08] >> Yes. That's the only way they should be [106:09] done. [106:10] >> Dr. Robert, we have a closing tradition [106:11] on this podcast where the last guest [106:12] leaves a question for the next not [106:14] knowing who they're leaving it for. [106:15] >> I knew it was coming. [106:16] >> Yes, you did. Yeah. [106:17] >> Looking at your life and the lives of [106:21] others, how would you describe the [106:23] journey of life and how to approach it? [106:30] When you come out of the box, when [106:33] you're born, [106:35] okay, [106:37] you already have [106:39] neurons and synapses and neural pathways [106:44] that have developed. Even though you've [106:47] had no experience, [106:50] the experience will either solidify [106:54] those or destroy them. [106:59] Ultimately, those turn into belief [107:00] systems. [107:04] Almost every belief system that you [107:07] thought you understood [107:09] about how the world works [107:13] is wrong. [107:16] You have to be open [107:18] to the fact that all the things you [107:20] thought were true aren't. [107:25] And if you are if you are that open with [107:27] yourself, you will know yourself. And if [107:29] you know yourself, you can be happy. [107:33] But if you, [107:35] you know, believe your belief systems [107:38] and you never question them, [107:42] you're never going to get there. [107:45] Amen. Robert, thank you so much. You're [107:48] I mean, you know, I say to some people [107:50] sometimes at the end of these podcasts [107:51] that they're doing good in the world, [107:52] but you're quite frankly saving a lot of [107:54] people's lives. I mean, the fact that [107:55] all the top comments on the video seem [107:57] to be dominated by the same narrative [107:58] that you've saved someone's life, you've [108:00] improved their life is I mean, is there [108:02] any higher work one can do with their [108:04] life than improve the quality and [108:06] duration and health of someone else's [108:09] life? And that's exactly what you're [108:10] doing. It's what you've done through [108:11] your public advocacy work. I know you [108:13] recently spent some time with Prince [108:15] Charles in the UK, which is incredibly [108:17] exciting, the the King of England, um [108:19] talking to him about health outcomes and [108:22] all of the work that you've been doing. [108:23] And it's what an honor it is to be [108:24] invited by him to, you know, him asking [108:28] for your opinions and your your [108:30] perspective on on health, which I know [108:32] is something that's quite close to the [108:33] heart of of the king. And then through [108:36] these books, these incredible books that [108:37] I have in front of me here, which I'm [108:38] going to link all of them below, this [108:40] one's a this one's new, right? So, this [108:42] was [108:42] >> it's coming out September 16th. [108:44] >> Okay. So, that will be out by the time [108:46] the conversations, I believe. [108:48] >> And these incredible books, I mean, [108:49] there's so many of them that I can't [108:50] pick a favorite child, but um they're [108:53] all incredible depending on what where [108:54] people are at in their lives and what [108:55] they're trying to understand. Robert, [108:57] thank you so much. [108:59] >> It's been a my pleasure. [109:01] >> Make sure you keep what I'm about to say [109:03] to yourself. I'm inviting 10,000 of you [109:06] to come even deeper into the diary of a [109:08] CEO. Welcome to my inner circle. This is [109:11] a brand new private community that I'm [109:13] launching to the world. We have so many [109:14] incredible things that happen that you [109:16] are never shown. We have the briefs that [109:19] are on my iPad when I'm recording the [109:20] conversation. We have clips we've never [109:22] released. We have behind the scenes [109:24] conversations with the guests and also [109:25] the episodes that we've never ever [109:28] released and so much more. In the [109:31] circle, you'll have direct access to me. [109:33] You can tell us what you want this show [109:34] to be, who you want us to interview, and [109:36] the types of conversations you would [109:37] love us to have. But remember, for now, [109:40] we're only inviting the first 10,000 [109:42] people that join before it closes. So, [109:44] if you want to join our private closed [109:46] community, head to the link in the [109:47] description below or go to [109:48] daccircle.com. [109:51] I will speak to you then. [109:55] This has always blown my mind a little [109:57] bit. 53% of you that listen to this show [109:59] regularly haven't yet subscribe to the [110:01] show. So, could I ask you for a favor [110:03] before we start? If you like the show [110:04] and you like what we do here and you [110:06] want to support us, the free simple way [110:07] that you can do just that is by hitting [110:09] the subscribe button. And my commitment [110:11] to you is if you do that, then I'll do [110:13] everything in my power, me and my team, [110:14] to make sure that this show is better [110:16] for you every single week. We'll listen [110:18] to your feedback. We'll find the guests [110:19] that you want me to speak to and we'll [110:21] continue to do what we do. Thank you so [110:23] much. [110:29] Heat. Heat. N. [110:37] [Music]