Brené Brown Ties Corporate Trust to Incremental Daily Actions

Brené Brown：企业信任源于日常点滴行动 相较于出轨等突发且明显的背叛，缓慢的情感疏离会带来更持久的痛苦与关系困扰。 在这场内容广泛的访谈中，Brené Brown 探讨了脆弱感如何成为真正勇气的基石，并深入剖析了她与精锐军事单位、运动员及企业领袖合作中的研究发现。她借助“弹珠罐”（Marble Jar）理论解析了信任的运作机制，与 Steven Bartlett 探讨了社交媒体的影响及播客的责任，并反思了情感铠甲作为抵御系统性压迫的一种生存机制。此外，Brown 还分享了个人感悟，包括如何维系一段长达 38 年的婚姻、应对母亲患认知障碍症带来的漫长哀伤，以及如何为了健康长寿而优先重视身心力量。 真正的勇气必须以脆弱为前提，Brené Brown 将脆弱定义为身处不确定性、风险与情感暴露之中的心理状态，没有这些挑战的行为无法称之为勇敢。 (64:18) 对刚认识的人过度倾倒创伤（即“抓取式测试”）本质上是一种防御铠甲，这种极端的倾诉会吓退对方，反而被当事人用来自我印证他人不可信。 (68:36) 心理防备铠甲是个体面对创伤或系统性压迫时的真实生存机制，因此种族、性别及权力等级等环境因素决定了卸下防备是否真正安全。 (72:30) 为遏制播客中的虚假信息，Steven Bartlett 团队聘请了博士级研究员核查内容，并在嘉宾发表偏离科学共识的言论时在屏幕上添加弹窗纠错说明。 (54:37)

Brené Brown argues that courage and connection require vulnerability rather than defensive armor, cautioning that fear-driven power dynamics, algorithmic polarization, and ideological bunkers are pushing society into regression. Drawing on two decades of grounded theory research, she frames courage and trust not as innate traits, but as measurable, trainable practices essential for personal relationships and institutional leadership. Armor, Vulnerability, and the Four Courage Skills (0:00) Brown contends that the primary barrier to brave living is not fear itself, but defensive "armor"—such as perfectionism, micromanagement, and blame—deployed to shield against emotional discomfort. Tested across more than 165,000 organizational participants in 45 countries, her research defines vulnerability as the emotional exposure experienced during moments of uncertainty and risk. Field engagements with diverse groups, including corporate executives, Pixar, Google, and US Special Forces soldiers at Fort Bragg, confirmed that courage cannot exist without vulnerability, because brave action fundamentally requires committing fully when outcomes cannot be controlled or predicted. Brown translates this dynamic into four teachable skill sets: identifying core values, wrestling constructively with vulnerability, building trust and self-trust, and mastering the ability to reset after failure. While defensive armor often originates as an understandable survival mechanism against trauma or marginalization, wearing it permanently extracts a steep psychological cost. It blocks access to love and belonging while triggering "foreboding joy"—the defensive habit of rehearsing tragedy during moments of happiness to buffer against potential loss, an impulse that Brown notes can only be countered through deliberate, active gratitude. Incremental Trust and the Marble Jar Model (87:31) Challenging the assumption that leadership authority or intimacy relies on grand, heroic gestures, Brown outlines the "Marble Jar Theory." Trust accumulates slowly through small, everyday "sliding door moments"—such as remembering family milestones, checking in during an illness, or offering unprompted support. Conversely, attempting instant intimacy by dumping unintegrated personal trauma onto new acquaintances acts as an armored litmus test, creating an overwhelming spotlighting effect that forces others to retreat and self-fulfills the belief that people cannot be trusted. In organizational leadership, demanding compliance without prior relational investment fails, whereas demonstrating transparent accountability when priorities shift preserves credibility. While overt betrayals shatter trust immediately, Brown identifies quiet, emotional disengagement as an even more corrosive pattern that slowly erodes a partner's or team's self-trust over time. Sustaining long-term partnerships—such as her own 38-year marriage—relies on three ongoing commitments: continuing to show up, rejecting the expectation that relationships should be easy, and regularly seeking external help through therapy and communication tools. Systems Theory and Zero-Sum Power Dynamics Applying systems theory, Brown explains that healthy organizations, families, and societies depend on permeable boundaries that permit continuous two-way feedback. When external complexity surges, leaders frequently raise drawbridges, causing the system to atrophy into a self-referencing echo chamber that validates only its own internal views. Societally, this defensive retreat reflects a Jungian pattern where systemic regression inevitably precedes major developmental progression. This defensive retreat drives the divide between "power over" and collaborative power ("power with, power to, and power within"). Operating from a scarcity mindset, power-over frameworks treat authority as a finite resource, relying on collective fear, scapegoating, and periodic displays of cruelty to force compliance. Because human neurology cannot endure perpetual fear without breaking down, populations subjected to power-over tactics either numb out or normalize ongoing chaos. In contrast, collaborative power models treat capability as an infinite resource that expands through shared agency, mutual purpose, and internal grounding. Algorithmic Echo Chambers and Moral Exclusion Digital attention platforms accelerate societal regression by optimizing algorithms around fear, outrage, and confirmation bias. Brown highlights a double standard among technology leaders who publicly push technical training like coding for the broader public, while privately attributing their own success to deep reading, philosophy, and history—often strictly limiting their own children's device usage. This dynamic risks creating an intellectual divide between those who retain critical, anticipatory awareness and those consumed by algorithmic feeds. Simultaneously, sorting into ideological bunkers replaces authentic belonging with "fitting in" based on shared hatred of common enemies. Brown cautions against counterfeit connection that demands absolute conformity and punishes nuanced inquiry. While advocating for open dialogue across ideological divides, she draws an unbending boundary against frameworks of "moral exclusion." Dehumanizing rhetoric—such as describing human communities with pest-related terms like "infestation"—serves historically as the precursor to moral exclusion and violence, making the rejection of dehumanizing language essential to preserving social trust. Grounded in her experience caring for her mother through a fatal four-year battle with dementia, Brown centers her philosophy on building "strong ground"—optimizing for long-term mental, physical, spiritual, and emotional resilience. She maintains that personal growth is not an arrival point that permanently eliminates human flaws, but an ongoing practice of alignment that prevents individuals from betraying their own core values.

研究教授 Brené Brown 提出，阻碍人们勇敢生活的核心障碍并非恐惧本身，而是恐惧时下意识启用的自我保护“盔甲”；唯有接纳包含不确定性与风险暴露的脆弱性，并在微观互动中重塑信任与批判性思考，才能化解现代算法异化与社会极化构筑的情感防御孤岛。 脆弱与勇气：防御盔甲的代价 (64:18) Brown 基于对超过16.5万名受试者的实证研究指出，勇气并非与生俱来的性格特质，而是包含明确核心价值观、直面并跨越脆弱、建立信任以及在挫折后重置复原这四项可训练的技能组合。她澄清了社会将脆弱等同于软弱的误解，强调脆弱本质上是个体身处不确定、风险与情感暴露时刻的心态体验。对美军特种部队与NFL职业球员的调研均证实，不存在脱离风险与暴露的纯粹勇敢行为。然而，个体为规避痛苦所披上的“盔甲”——如完美主义、控制欲与微观管理——虽能在创伤或边缘化处境中充当短期生存策略，长期固守却会阻断个体对爱、真实联结与核心价值观的感知。 此外，Brown 指出“喜悦”是人类最具脆弱感的情绪。为防范突如其来的失去与创痛，许多人习惯在幸福时刻预先彩排悲剧（即“预感性喜悦”），宁愿承受长期的失望基准线。研究表明，突破这一防御的关键在于将脆弱带来的生理颤栗转化为实时的感恩练习，通过主动的情绪锚定打破灾难化思维，从而真正接纳当下的幸福。 权力控制、系统封闭与算法认知割裂 结合系统理论，Brown 区分了基于零和匮乏思维的“统治型权力”（Power Over）与基于协作赋能的“共同/自主/内在权力”（Power With/To/Within）。统治型权力依赖制造共同敌人与恐惧来维持控制，并周期性地诉诸残酷展示以巩固从属地位。在系统动力学层面，健康系统依赖可渗透的边界以输入持续反馈；领导者或组织一旦因回避复杂性而关闭边界，系统便会退化为彻底的“自我指涉”（Self-Referencing），在虚妄的回音室中走向萎缩。 这一系统退化在算法时代尤为严峻。社交媒体通过算法利用恐惧与偏见刺激用户互动，形成加剧群体情绪失调的反馈回路。Brown 与主持人 Steven Bartlett 指出，部分科技精英一方面限制自己子女使用电子设备、注重人文与哲学通识训练，另一方面却向公众大肆推销纯粹的技术操作培训。这种双重标准正催生新的认知阶级割裂：具备跨学科系统思考、情境感知力与接纳悖论的人群，与被算法推送困在信息茧房中的群体之间的认知鸿沟正在急剧拉大。 真实归属与掩体思维：警惕非人化语言 (44:21) Brown 强调，真正归属（True Belonging）的前提是个体对自我诚实与接纳，而“迎合与融入”（Fitting In）则是真正归属的最大威胁，因其迫使人们背叛自我以顺应外部规则。当今社会正大规模分化为基于共同敌意的“意识形态掩体”；这种建立在虚假联结（Counterfeit Connection）上的社群极度排斥复杂性，对提出细致理性疑问的内部成员亦会施以排挤与放逐。 在公共对话中，Brown 划定的不可逾越底线是“道德排斥圈”（Circle of Moral Inclusion）。心理学与历史经验显示，对特定群体实施暴力与歧视的第一步，必然是语言层面的去人性化，例如政治话语中将弱势或移民群体蔑称为“害虫侵扰”（Infestation）。Bartlett 则补充了平台治理的责任：面对每月7000万受众，团队通过聘请专业研究员对客座观点进行事实核查与反共识批注，甚至封存虚假内容，以审慎态度抵抗依赖极化争议赚取流量的算法冲动。 弹珠罐理论：微观信任累积与关系维系 (87:31) 关于信任机制，Brown 提出了著名的“弹珠罐理论”（Marble Jar Theory）。她借鉴 John Gottman 博士的研究指出，人际与组织信任从来不是靠危机时刻的宏大口号建立的，而是由微小的“滑动门时刻”（Sliding Door Moments）像弹珠一样逐颗累积而成，例如主动关怀同伴困境、信守秘密或指出令人尴尬的小细节。领导者若在日常缺乏这种微观透明度，而在危机中试图通过威权压制或高呼“相信我”，必然无法换取真正的信任基础。 在关系维系与破坏方面，Brown 观察到，相较于显性的背叛行为，缓慢的情感疏离（Slow Emotional Disengagement）往往对当事人的现实感造成更深刻的隐性伤害。结合自身38年的婚姻历程，她提炼出长期伴侣关系的三大基石：持续现身（Keep showing up）、承认亲密关系的艰难本质并不对其产生不切实际的轻松幻想，以及主动寻求外部心理支持并持续更新沟通工具。 照护负荷、延宕哀伤与身心韧性构建 (101:21) Brown 回顾了与姐妹共同照护患认知症母亲四年的经历，剖析了长期照护给家庭（特别是女性照料者）带来的沉重身心重压。眼睁睁看着至亲在认知瓦解中流失人格与尊严，照料者往往经历漫长且撕裂的“延宕哀伤”（Anticipatory Grief）。在母亲离世后，她体会到的首要感受是如释重负——她指出这是认知症逝者家属普遍存在却常被道德评判遮蔽的真实心理反应。 这段创伤促使 Brown 重新审视老龄化与生理机能的关系。她将力量训练中教练要求的“找到立足点”（Find the ground）升华为核心理念《坚实立足点》（Strong Ground），倡导通过物理抗阻训练连接身心并预防脑退化。Brown 表示，自己当下的追求是在生理、心智、精神与情感各维度全面优化“力量与长寿”，不再追求成为毫无缺陷的完人，而是建立扎实的心理抓地力以对抗未知动荡。 该对话系统揭示了个体防御机制与现代极化、算法生态交织的困境。Brown 依托扎根理论为重塑信任、接纳脆弱及打破认知隔裂提供了行动路径；然而对话亦表明，在等级森严、存在系统性歧视或生存资源严苛的环境中，过早卸下防御盔甲往往伴随着真实的生存代价。如何在倡导坦诚脆弱的同时，建立足以庇护边缘个体的制度性安全网络，仍是该理论在现实落地过程中需要持续权衡的复杂课题。

## Background 本期内容由知名播客频道 The Diary Of A CEO（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2025 年 11 月 3 日发布在 YouTube 平台上。节目简介指出，全球顶级羞耻感与脆弱性研究学者、六度蝉联《纽约时报》畅销书榜首的布琳·布朗（Brené Brown）做客本期对话，深入揭示羞耻感、恐惧与完美主义如何暗中操控生活，并详解构建信任的“弹珠罐理论”、可训练的四大勇气技能，以及如何卸下防卫铠甲、用感恩化解灾难化思维。 ## TL;DR 在长达近两小时的深度对谈中，Brené Brown 剖析了原生家庭的创伤烙印与自身高度警觉机制的形成，进而指出阻碍人们前行的从来不是恐惧，而是恐惧时下意识抓取的“自我保护铠甲”。两人从算法绑架、权力运作的恐惧根源与群体主权等宏观系统危机，层层深入到微观亲密关系中建立信任的“弹珠罐理论”、直面脆弱的必要性与即时感恩练习。对话后半程，Brené 极度坦诚地讲述了照料患阿尔茨海默病母亲直至离世的漫长哀恸与解脱，并结合自身力量训练感悟，阐述了新书《Strong Ground》中关于在心智、身体、情感各维度“深扎根基”与追求长久韧性的生命哲学。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话呈现出一种罕见的既具学术思辨深度又充满赤诚情感张力的氛围。Steven Bartlett 带着如愿以偿的由衷敬佩与敏锐好奇步步追问，而 Brené Brown 则展现出标志性的德州式爽朗自嘲与刀刃向内的极致坦率；两人在各自童年家庭争吵的共鸣处有着心照不宣的沉重默契，在剖析人性防御与脆弱本质时又碰撞出闪光的幽默。从笑中带泪的个人告白到直面生死照料的沉重与释然，整场访谈节奏舒缓而层层剥茧，听众仿佛置身于一场温暖却极具穿透力的心灵减压舱，收获兼具洞见与落地的勇气。 ## Bulletin - [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=0s) 布琳·布朗指出，阻碍人们勇敢前行的不是恐惧本身，而是在恐惧时为了自我保护而抓取的“自卫铠甲”；勇气的四大技能支柱可衡量且可后天习得，其全球培训体系已覆盖超 16.5 万人。 - [10:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=604s) 基于 15 年的研究，布朗团队发现普通人能准确命名的核心情绪通常只有三种（开心、悲伤、愤怒），情绪语言的贫乏导致恐惧与失望往往被错误扭曲为单一的攻击性愤怒。 - [01:27:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5251s) “弹珠罐理论”揭示信任并非来自惊天动地的誓言或危机中的高管表态，而是源于日常微小瞬间的真诚积累；比起出轨，缓慢无声的情感疏离对信任与心理健康的摧毁更具折磨性。 - [29:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1754s) 社交算法将用户锁在私人定制的信息茧房中，世界迫切需要的不是单向度的个体认知主权，而是重新打破孤岛、共享现实的“群体主权”。 - [01:14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4441s) 布朗直言人类最脆弱的情感其实是“喜悦”，许多人习惯通过预演悲剧来防备失望；而真正能沉浸于喜悦的唯一秘诀，是在感受到脆弱颤栗时立即启动具体的感恩练习。 ## Key takeaways - [01:04:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3858s) 勇气的本质是在无法预知结局的前提下依然全力以赴，没有不确定性、风险与情绪暴露（脆弱），就根本不存在真正的勇敢。 - [19:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1178s) 支配型权力（Power Over）基于资源匮乏的假定，必须依赖周期性的残忍展示与威慑维持，但人类神经生物机制无法长期承受高压恐惧，终将走向麻木或系统瓦解。 - [19:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1178s) 卓越组织与领导力依赖协同型、赋能型与内生型权力（Power With / Power To / Power Within），并将权力视为越分享越丰沛的共赢资源。 - [22:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1360s) 系统论的核心在于保持边界的渗透性（Permeable Boundaries）；一旦因恐惧外部复杂性而筑起高墙，系统将迅速沦入自我指涉的衰退闭环。 - [31:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1866s) 科技精英倡导大众学习代码等硬工具，自身却高度依赖哲学思辨与人文历史，正在形成掌握注意力与思辨特权的“思考阶层”。 - [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2066s) 从职场高压切换到家庭需要像泰晤士河水闸般的“减压舱”与过渡期，跳过认知转换直接进入家庭碎务极易引发情绪翻船。 - [44:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2661s) 真正的归属感以属于自我为前提，迎合融入（fitting in）是对真实自我最大的背叛；建立在共同仇恨上的同温层是脆弱的伪联结。 - [47:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2850s) 非人化（Dehumanization）是暴力与残酷的前奏，而将特定群体驱逐出“道德包容圈”的第一步永远是通过害虫化、非法化的语言暴力。 - [01:09:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4157s) 信任与脆弱是层层递进的微小互惠过程，初次见面就过度倾倒创伤是防御性的“砸烂抢跑”，并非健康的脆弱表达。 - [01:25:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5130s) 勇气的四大实证技能支柱包括：确立核心价值观、建设性穿越脆弱、建立信任与自我信任，以及挫折后的系统复位与弹性复原。 - [01:27:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5251s) 约翰·戈特曼提出的“滑动门时刻”表明，当伴侣或团队流露痛苦时，停下来关切还是视而不见，直接决定了信任基石的建立或走向背叛。 - [01:37:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5878s) 维系长期亲密关系的三项基石：无论多艰难都持续在场、打破关系应当毫不费力的童话幻想，以及主动寻求专业咨询与外部帮助。 - [01:41:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=6089s) 照料阿尔茨海默病患者是对身心与尊严的残酷重压，至亲离世时的第一感受往往是长久哀恸后的彻底解脱。 - [01:45:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=6314s) 举重训练中的身体扎根口令升华为《Strong Ground》的核心哲学：在心智、身体、精神和情感四个维度追求落地的力量与寿命韧性。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=0s) 盔甲与脆弱：通往真正勇气的技能 在节目的开篇，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）直言布琳·布朗（Brené Brown）是观众呼声最高、期待最久的嘉宾。布琳随即切入她核心研究的精髓：阻碍我们在生活与工作中勇敢前行的，从来不是恐惧本身，而是我们在恐惧时为了自我保护而抓取的“盔甲”（armor）。正是这层盔甲，将人们推离了爱、深层连接与自身坚守的价值观。然而，识别自己在恐惧时究竟披上了何种防卫外衣，并非人类的本能反应，而是一套需要后天刻意训练的觉察力。作为在羞耻感、脆弱与人际连接领域深耕二十余年的顶尖学者，布琳的研究不仅深植于学界，更启发了皮克斯（Pixar）、谷歌（Google）以及美国特种部队（US Special Forces）等机构用于培养卓越的领导力。 谈及“脆弱”（vulnerability）是否不可或缺时，布琳指出，若想勇敢度过一生，脆弱是唯一的通路。然而，世俗成长环境往往向人们灌输“脆弱即软弱”的错误观念。以她自己的成长为例，家中允许愤怒，但悲伤被视为禁忌，人必须展现强硬；于是当恐惧、焦虑或失望袭来时，所有的情绪都被扭曲包装成了愤怒。布琳特别强调，世上最脆弱的情感其实是“喜悦”（joy）——由于全然体会喜悦伴随着随时失去的巨大风险，许多人宁可选择常年生活在预设的失望之中，也不愿放任自己体会纯粹的兴奋，以此免遭意外打击。因此，没有脆弱就没有勇气，因为勇气的定义正是“在无法预知结局的前提下，依然选择挺身而出并全力以赴”。这种勇气绝非玄学天赋，而是可衡量、可习得的技能体系，布琳的团队已在全球通过此系统培训了超过 16.5 万人，其中就包括向《财富》100强（Fortune 100）高管传授如何建立信任的“弹珠罐理论”（Marble Jar Theory）。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 恐惧反应与通往勇气的两条路径 accDescr: 对比个体在面临恐惧时不确定性时，选择自我保护盔甲与拥抱脆弱通向勇气的不同循环路径。 subgraph S1["本能防御路径"] A["遭遇恐惧与未知"] --> B["抓取防卫盔甲 (Armor)"] B --> C["情感隔绝与表象愤怒"] C --> D["疏离爱、连接与价值观"] end subgraph S2["勇气成长路径"] A --> E["觉察自身防御模式"] E --> F["接纳脆弱 (Vulnerability)"] F --> G["建立真正连接与信任"] G --> H["全力以赴的勇气实践"] end ``` ### [02:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=141s) 德州五代家庭与高度警觉的童年烙印 当史蒂文试图探究布琳非凡洞察力的源头，并将她称作一个在各个方面都极为罕见的“异数”（anomaly）时，布琳先是一愣，随即以带有自嘲和幽默的方式拆解了自己的底色。她表示自己是第五代德州人，成长在一个充斥着大量功能失调（dysfunction）的家庭中。尽管父母在自身认知范围内已竭尽全力，但他们各自的原生家庭都深受贫困与成瘾问题的困扰。典型的德州强悍文化在这个家庭体现得淋漓尽致：绝不允许流泪，被认可的情绪光谱极其狭窄，基本只有“极度愤怒”（pissed off）或“一切都好”两个极端状态，悲伤与脆弱被视作软弱和将自己置于险境的代名词。 在这种充满张力且不可预测的家庭环境中，布琳在家中和学校里都长期感到自己像个局外人。然而，这种动荡也催生了她一种近乎特异的功能——高度警觉（hypervigilance）。正如后来心理治疗师对她的诊断，由于年幼时必须随时感知周遭的危险与情绪暗涌，她练就了极快地看懂人际潜台词、在看似不相关的碎片间建立敏锐联结的能力。家庭虽然不乏欢笑与爱，但底色是沉重的不确定性。布琳谈到父母眼中的“优秀成绩单”：你必须好玩、有趣、强悍，要会打枪、吐痰吐得远、钓鱼在行、开车要快，具备极高的运动天赋。然而，这种所谓的“乐趣”往往会在一瞬间骤变为风暴，比如父亲会因为过于激进而直接被裁判驱逐出球赛场地，令全场气氛瞬间降至冰点。 - **家庭允许的情绪带宽**：严格限制在“愤怒”与“正常”之间，脆弱与悲伤被全面压抑。 - **父母评分标准（Parental Scorecard）**：好玩、强悍、运动能力强、射击与钓鱼技能熟练、车开得飞快。 - **核心生存代偿机制**：为了应对不可控的环境，演化出看穿全局的高度警觉性（Hypervigilance）。 ### [05:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=330s) “大修女”的保护者角色与穿墙而过的争吵声 史蒂文提起曾见过一张布琳童年时期的老照片：在 20 世纪 70 年代风格的黄色丝绒沙发上，小布琳紧紧搂着她的弟妹们，眼神深处藏着显而易见的恐惧。布琳对此记忆犹新，并透露自己作为长女，在家里一直扮演着绝对的保护者角色，甚至拥有一个半开玩笑却无比写实的代号——“大修女”（Sister Superior）。每当父母爆发激烈冲突时，布琳的第一反应就是迅速把所有弟弟妹妹领进自己的房间安置好，然后独自下楼去应对现场的残局。那种冲突偶尔涉及肢体碰撞，但更多是情绪上的狂暴宣泄，伴随着无休止的尖叫与咆哮。 这一经历引发了史蒂文强烈的共鸣。史蒂文坦承，他整个童年也是在穿透墙壁的刺耳争吵声中度过的，那种每周七天不间断的嘶吼声，成为了他在原生家庭挥之不去的背景噪音。布琳与史蒂文在演播室里对这种共同创伤达成了沉重的默契——那种只有在充斥着争吵的家庭中长大的人，才能隔着墙壁瞬间分辨出的特定声响。这种家庭氛围彻底固化了布琳年少时的处事机制：神经紧绷、极度戒备、责任抗肩，并且时刻在内心告诫周围人“最好别惹我，因为我誓死都会保护我的弟妹”。 ### [07:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=430s) 爱情的防线、38年婚姻与“他比你更喜欢你自己” 原生家庭的争吵模式深刻扭曲了两人对亲密关系的早期认知。史蒂文回忆道，在他童年的视角里，母亲每天对着父亲嘶吼六七个小时，而父亲则如同一尊静止的物体般坐在屏幕前毫无反应，即便换房间也会被步步紧逼；这让他从小认定“爱情就是一座将男人变成囚徒的监狱”，为了避免沦为受害者，他像躲避瘟疫一样抗拒亲密关系，直到 27 岁前都牢牢构筑心防。布琳听罢打趣道，直到史蒂文生命中的那个女孩跨越了他的城墙，并顺势调侃“我的丈夫史蒂夫也翻过了我的心墙，顺便澄清一下，此史蒂夫非彼史蒂文，虽然你今天挖得够深，快游过我挖满食人鱼的护城河了”。 谈到与丈夫史蒂夫（Steve）长达 38 年的羁绊，布琳坦言这是她一生中经历过最艰难、毫无争议最硬核的事（"Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder."）。两人在正式步入婚姻前曾分分合合长达 7 年，由于彼此都带着沉重的防卫壳，“棋逢对手”（game recognizes game）的两人通过漫长的深谈，才一点一滴瓦解了各自的心墙。然而新婚仅仅六个月时，布琳便濒临崩溃，跑去看心理医生并坚决表示必须结束这段婚姻。在听到她的控诉后，咨询师敏锐地道破了真相：“史蒂夫对你的喜爱与接纳，远比你自己对自己的喜爱要多得多；面对这样的爱，对你而言一定痛苦极了。” 这句话如同一记重拳砸中了布琳隐秘的羞耻防线。布琳现场复刻了当时的防御姿态，她本能地暴怒反弹，心里大骂“去你的，你被解雇了！”布琳透露了自己的一个下意识破防特征（tell）：每当她发出异常高亢尖锐的疑问声“What?（什么？）”时，就意味着她内心的警报已彻底拉响，正在一边找手提包，一边急促地用余光搜寻逃生通道的门在哪里。这一真实的剖白生动勾勒出人在面对毫无保留的真爱时，由于内在自我厌弃而触发的巨大恐慌与逃避冲动。 ### [10:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=604s) 情绪语言的贫乏与两极分化的防御机制 Brené 回忆起心理治疗师对她说的那记当头棒喝：“当你还没学会如何好好看见自己、爱护自己时，和一个能把你看得清清楚楚、深知你且无比爱你的人在一起，这感觉肯定非常不自在且令人心慌。” 这句话直击她的痛处，让她意识到必须先达到能像伴侣喜欢自己一样去喜欢自己的程度，才能真正判断一段关系是否行得通。 这种对自我接纳的抗拒，与她成长环境中的情绪模式密不可分。在她成长的家庭里，情绪选择极其有限，基本上只有两种极端状态：“愤怒狂躁”或是“彻底封闭情感关机”。Brené 在她的著作《心灵的地图》（*Atlas of the Heart*）中梳理了 87 种人类核心情绪，她强调“语言的边界就是我们世界的边界”。然而在过去 15 年的研究中，他们发现绝大多数普通人能够准确识别和命名的人类情绪仅有区区三种：开心（happy）、悲伤（sad）和愤怒（pissed off）。 在 Brené 的原生家庭中，“悲伤”是不被允许的，因为悲伤被视为软弱的象征。因此，她的世界被压缩成了两个抽屉：要么一切正常，要么勃然大怒。久而久之，无论是恐惧、悲伤、焦虑、失望还是痛苦，所有负面而脆弱的情感一旦涌现，最终都会被统一扭曲并宣泄为“愤怒”。 --- ### [11:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=697s) “得州小姐”审美与羞耻感教养下的格格不入 Steven Bartlett 追问，既然她在学校和家庭里都找不到归属感，这种“无法喜欢自己”的自卑究竟根源于何处。Brené 坦言自己从小就渴望逃离生长的地方，打心底觉得自己是个局外人。在当时的得克萨斯州文化圈里，理想的范本是去当啦啦队员（Bear Cadet）、和橄榄球队四分卫约会并拥有一座农场。她觉得自己不够漂亮、不讨人喜欢，也没有人懂她；而在家里，她不是那种随和讨喜的孩子，而是时刻充满焦虑、神经紧绷并戒备森严。 这种自我怀疑的主要源头，是父母在育儿过程中施加的大量“羞耻感教育”（shame-based parenting）。无论事情做成与否，她都会被迫产生强烈的挫败感与自我厌恶。其中很大一部分压力来自于外表和人设的严苛规训： - 既要符合传统南方女性的审美——用电热卷发筒烫出夸张的蓬松金发（“头发越高，离上帝越近”），随时准备去竞选选美皇后； - 同时又被要求表现得坚韧皮实、低维护成本，随时能扣上棒球帽迅速干活。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 羞耻文化与外貌规训的恶性循环 accDescr: 展示得州严苛的社会外貌预期如何通过羞耻感教养转化为青少年的自我否定与极端的身体改造行为。 subgraph SocietalPressure ["社会与文化预期（得克萨斯模式）"] A["选美皇后标准<br/>（高蓬金发/完美身材）"] B["强悍低维护人设<br/>（戴棒球帽/能打能抗）"] end subgraph Internalization ["家庭与个体反应"] C["羞耻感教养<br/>（做与不做皆受羞辱）"] D["极端身体改造<br/>（抹婴儿油/柠檬汁晒伤/钳子拉拉链）"] end A --> C B --> C C --> D D --> E["自我厌恶与自尊坍塌<br/>（认为自己丑陋、不配被爱）"] ``` Brené 指出，这种对外貌的苛求绝不仅仅来自家庭，整个社会的文化环境就像“有毒的空气”，年轻女孩在其中呼吸就不可避免受其侵蚀。在那个缺乏防晒健康意识的年代，为了追求时尚杂志里的模样，女孩子们在身上抹满婴儿油、在头发上涂柠檬汁、在下巴下垫锡纸反光以求尽可能暴晒，甚至穿上必须借助钳子才能拉上拉链的紧身牛仔裤。 --- ### [15:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=923s) 权力的恐惧本质与政治叙事中的替罪羊机制 Brené 的学术之路并非一帆风顺，她在 29 岁才大学毕业，随后于 1996 年至 2002 年间在休斯敦大学获得社会工作博士学位，并在 2001 年成为研究型教授。回顾过去 20 多年的社会与政治变迁，她引用了荣格心理学的一句格言：“任何伟大的前进之前，必然会经历一场倒退。” 她指出，要看透当今世界各地政权的本质，只需观察他们如何行使权力——他们使用权力的方式，准确暴露了他们内心最恐惧的东西。Steven Bartlett 对此深有共鸣，并分享了最近在曼彻斯特与朋友关于英美政治叙事的讨论：目前最能煽动选民、赢得权力的政治剧本，就是精准树立替罪羊，告诉底层民众“正是那些肤色不同的人、那些乘坐橡皮艇跨越英吉利海峡或翻越边境的移民，夺走了你们的生计并造成了你们生活中的痛苦”。 Brené 极度赞同这一洞察，认为两人所说的其实是一个闭环的两面：掌权者利用对恐惧的操弄来攫取权力，又利用手中权力去扑灭他们真正害怕的事物。只要向大众提供一个可以为他们的苦痛背锅的敌人，并且这个敌人长相与选民截然不同、无法让选民产生同理共情，这种政治煽动就“百试百灵”。 --- ### [19:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1178s) 四种权力类型与领导力架构 谈到权力运作，Brené 解释了她在新书《坚实根基》（*Strong Ground*）中系统阐述的四种权力模型。这种权力机制不仅存在于政坛，在商业组织、企业高管圈（她 95% 的工作都在与财富 100 强的 C-suite 高管打交道）以及宗教团体中完全通用。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 权力的两极信念系统与四种形式 accDescr: 展示零和博弈下的霸权（Power Over）与协同共赢下的赋能型权力（Power With, Power To, Power Within）的区别。 subgraph ZeroSum ["零和博弈模式（基于匮乏感与恐惧）"] PO["支配型权力 (Power Over)<br/>特点：视权力为有限披萨、囤积霸占、严密监控<br/>代价：必须周期性对弱势群体施加残忍以维持威慑"] end subgraph Abundance ["无限共赢模式（基于安全感与共同创造）"] PW["协同型权力 (Power With)<br/>寻找共同点，汇聚集体力量"] PT["赋能型权力 (Power To)<br/>赋予他人自主权，激发潜能"] PIN["内生型权力 (Power Within)<br/>自知之明、元认知、尊重差异与自我价值"] end PO -.->|"神经生物学上无法长期维系恐惧"| PW PW --- PT PT --- PIN ``` Brené 剖析了这两种截然相反的权力哲学： - **支配型权力（Power Over）**：建立在“权力是有限的（就像一张披萨，分给你一块我就少一块）”这一匮乏假设之上。因此它必须被囤积、垄断与防守。为了维系这种凌驾于他人之上的控制，领导者不得不周期性地对脆弱群体展示残酷手段，以此恐吓众人，时刻提醒大众自己具备怎样的惩戒破坏力。 - **共享型权力（Power With / Power To / Power Within）**：建立在“权力是无限的、越分享越庞大”的充盈假设之上。它强调共创协作、赋予团队能动性，以及建立在深度元认知与自我觉察之上的内在力量。 针对 Steven 提出的“商业领袖若想成功是否必须彻底摒弃‘支配型权力’”的疑问，Brené 明确指出，长青卓越的领导力必然依赖于 Power With、Power To 与 Power Within。依靠“支配型权力”建立的统治在物理和心理上极其沉重且难以维系，因为人类的神经生物学机制决定了我们天生无法长时间承受高压的恐惧状态。 ### [20:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1254s) “支配权力”的神经生物学代价与周期性残酷展示 当领导者依赖“支配权力”（power over）进行统治——不断用失业风险、严厉后果或降职威胁下属时，人类的神经生物机制必然会走向两种极端之一。第一种是被迫陷入情感麻木。人类的身体根本无法长期承受持续不断的高压恐惧，这种负荷在生理层面上过于苛刻，神经系统最终只能选择“关机”。第二种则是“超常态化”（hyper-normalization），即人们逐渐习惯了这种疯狂且有毒的常态。然而，这也意味着单纯的威吓会逐渐边际递减；为了重新激活人们内心的恐惧并维持服从，掌权者不得不周期性地上演极端混乱与残忍的戏码。 这种机制在政治和社会现实中体现得淋漓尽致。Brené Brown 指出，回顾美国的移民与驱逐出境问题，即便以往某些总统在驱逐人数的硬性指标上可能不亚于甚至超过某些强硬任期，但公众从未目睹过如今这般充满戏剧张力的残酷场景——蒙面执法人员在街头强行掳走父母，而年幼的孩子死死抱着母亲的双腿撕心裂肺地哭喊。这种赤裸裸暴露在聚光灯下的残忍并非行政效率的产物，而是一种精心策划的“权力示范”，旨在向所有人昭示谁拥有至高无上的生杀予夺之权。Steven Bartlett 补充道，这种动态同样完美映射在自恋型虐待关系（abusive or narcissistic relationships）中：受害者在日复一日的控制下逐渐麻木并适应了虐待，彻底丧失逃离的意志。 --- ### [22:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1360s) 系统论思维：保持边界的渗透性与开放反馈 Brené Brown 强调，她深受系统论（systems theory）的学术训练，如果当今的组织领导者缺乏系统论思维，就注定会在错综复杂的世界中掉队。身处现代商业与社会网络中，任何组织或个人每天都会与成百上千个相互交错的系统碰撞。一个系统想要健康生长、避免退化，最核心的前提是维持“具渗透性的边界”（permeable boundaries），让外部环境的反馈与信息能够自由地进出流动。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 系统边界的演变与退化机制 accDescr: 对比健康系统的渗透性边界与封闭系统的萎缩自洽机制 subgraph HealthySystem["健康系统（开放演进）"] A["外部复杂现实\n（地缘、AI、市场）"] -->|"真实反馈与挑战"| B["渗透性边界\n（Permeable Boundaries）"] B --> C["持续学习、纠错与迭代\n（保持生机与韧性）"] end subgraph ClosedSystem["封闭系统（退化萎缩）"] D["面对不确定性与复杂度的恐惧"] -->|"筑起高墙、收起吊桥"| E["封闭僵化边界\n（封锁外部批评）"] E --> F["系统萎缩与自我指涉\n（Self-Referencing）"] F --> G["'我们好吗？很好！'\n'我们对吗？全对！'"] end ``` 为了具象化系统的交织，Brené 提到了 Steven 播客中关于女性更年期健康的内容（特邀嘉宾 Mary Claire Haver 医生碰巧正是 Brené 本人的私人医生）。这期节目表面上谈论健康，实则直接撞击并撼动了医疗体系、职场文化、家庭关系、乃至五六十岁女性离婚率等数十个盘根错节的子系统。Brené 打趣道，如果男性也普遍面临更年期困扰，相关产业与研究早就膨胀成“数万亿美元的超级庞然大物”了。 - **复杂度的反噬**：当外部环境变得过于动荡（如地缘政治剧变、市场动荡、AI 浪潮），人类的本能往往是逃避不确定性，“升起吊桥，在护城河里放满食人鱼”，试图彻底切断外部反馈以求自保。 - **自我指涉（Self-referencing）的衰退陷阱**：丧失渗透性的系统会迅速萎缩，退化为一个孤芳自赏的闭环——团队只会自问自答：“我们表现好吗？太棒了。我们做对了吗？完全正确。”这种拒绝吸收逆耳反馈的态度，构成了当代组织生存的最大威胁。 --- ### [26:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1595s) 算法绑架、注意力经济与地缘政治下的囚徒困境 在系统复杂性剧增的背景下，由 AI 深度驱动的算法推荐将这一危机推向了极致。算法的唯一优化目标是榨取用户停留时长以变现广告，因此它最倾向于推送两类内容：能够激发原始恐惧的事物，或是迎合用户既有偏见的观点。Steven 指出，如果一个算法试图呈现客观多元的对立视角，普通用户的大脑会因过度的认知失调与不适而迅速流失；这种做法虽然对民主社会极为有益，但在商业与广告模式上却无异于自杀。 两人随后探讨了科技巨头（Tech Bros）所面临的伦理责任与难以打破的博弈怪圈。Steven 扮演反面辩友提出，客观分析商业与地缘政治激励机制便会发现，科技公司面临着残酷的囚徒困境： - **算法的成瘾军备竞赛**：TikTok 凭借极其精准、令人无法自拔的算法统治了年轻一代的大脑，迫使美国政界因数据与意识形态安全威胁而不得不强行推动剥离或收购。 - **超级智能的零和博弈**：如果西方因伦理考量单方面叫停或限制通用人工智能（AGI）的研发，中俄等竞争对手一旦率先实现突破，西方在经济与国家安全上将彻底沦为附庸——用 Steven 生动的比喻来说，“美国将沦为中国的法国斗牛犬”，届时甚至不得不向对方租赁底层技术。正是在这种地缘安全的倒逼下，OpenAI 与硅谷高管们只能选择顶着巨大风险全速推进。 --- ### [29:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1754s) 精神危机：从“认知主权”到“群体主权”的反思 这一连串的系统性压迫将全社会推入了一场深刻的精神危机：个体情绪极度失调，人与人之间乃至对自我都充满戒备与猜忌，真实的连接荡然无存。尽管目睹了这一切，Brené 依然坚信人性的底色是“善良大于贪婪”，拒绝滑向虚无主义。 谈及破局之道，Brené 分享了她此前与知名脱口秀主持人特雷弗·诺亚（Trevor Noah）的一场思想交锋。当时 Brené 提出了一个令她兴奋的概念——“认知主权”（cognitive sovereignty），主张个体必须从算法手中夺回对自己心智的控制权，将注意力视为极其珍贵的稀缺资源，主动决定自己阅读什么、消费什么并重塑批判性思维。 出乎意料的是，Trevor Noah 当场对她提出了深刻的反驳。Trevor 敏锐地指出，当今世界的病灶恰恰在于我们拥有了太多的“个体认知主权”：如今所有社交软件的重心都是极度私人定制的“为你推荐”（For You page），每个人都被封锁在量身定制的信息茧房与绝对主权之中。Trevor 认为我们真正迫切需要的不是孤立的认知主权，而是**“群体主权”（communal sovereignty）**——重新打破由算法为单个人编织的孤岛，回归到彼此关联、共享现实的共同体中去思考与生存。 ### [31:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1866s) 科技精英的双标与“思考阶层”的崛起 Brené Brown 谈到，由于自身的工作性质，她经常有机会与掌管各大科技平台的商业巨头、创始人以及 CEO 们共处一室。但在这些闭门交流中，她目睹了一种极度脱节且令人恐慌的现象。曾有人忧心忡忡地向一位科技亿万富翁请教：“我该让我的孩子学什么？我真的很为他们的未来担忧。”这位富豪毫不犹豫地回答：“去学编程、学物理。”然而，仅仅过了五分钟，当有人问起他自己的深层成功秘诀时，这位富豪却神情自若地表示：“归功于我对哲学的深刻思考以及斯多葛主义（Stoics）。” 这种自相矛盾的表态让 Brené Brown 极为警惕：“哥们，到底是哪一个？”她由此推导出一个令人不寒而栗的社会趋势：当代似乎正在形成一个特权式的“思考阶层”。这群精英在幕后钻研文科、哲学与历史，却对普通大众摆出一副姿态：“其余的人只要负责继续刷屏幕就行了，别管那些深奥的词汇，复杂的概念交由我们替你们处理。”这就好比当年有人问史蒂夫·乔布斯（Steve Jobs），他的孩子们一定深爱 iPad，乔布斯却坦言自己的孩子根本不用 iPad；其传记作者后来也证实，乔布斯的家庭餐桌上严禁科技设备，全家人热烈讨论的完全是艺术与历史。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 思考阶层与普通大众的分流 accDescr: 展示精英阶层倡导的学科与自身实际依赖的思维技能之间的断层 subgraph Elite["思考阶层（科技精英）"] E1["哲学、博雅教育与历史"] E2["掌控注意力与思辨能力"] end subgraph Masses["普通大众（被规训方向）"] M1["单一技术工具：纯代码/物理"] M2["被动刷屏：注意力被剥夺"] end Elite -- "表面建议" --> Masses Elite -- "真实壁垒" --> E1 ``` ### [32:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=1958s) 面向未来的立足之本与给下一代的技能储备 Brené Brown 坦言，在她撰写《坚实根基》（*Strong Ground*）期间，全书最艰难的一章就是关于“脚踏实地的自信”（Grounded Confidence）。要打造面向未来、具备抗压韧性的领导力，需要融合大约 30 种不同的思维模式与技能组合。当她好不容易完成这一章节时，团队中有人敏锐地从商业角度指出：“天啊，如果能把这套东西变成培训课程，绝对是一门极为重要的生意！”但 Brené 的第一反应却是：“去他的培训，我首先要把它教给我的孩子们。” 对于她而言，衡量工具和商业化培训都可以延后开发，最迫切的是让自己的孩子掌握这套复杂的生存技能： - **系统性思维（Systems Thinking）**：不孤立地看问题，理解全局与动态相互作用。 - **前瞻性思维（Anticipatory Thinking）与情境感知（Situational Awareness）**：能够预判形势走向并洞悉当下处境。 - **时间感知（Temporal Awareness）**：在有限时间内准确把控节奏。 - **自主掌控力**：真正拥有属于自己的心智、智力、专注力与注意力，不被资本与算法牵着鼻子走。 - **应对复杂悖论的能力**：能够承受细微差异（nuance）与自相矛盾带来的张力。当人类的大脑神经本能由于感到不适而尖叫着“二选一！快做决定来消除不安！”时，能够沉住气保持思辨，而不是仓促妥协。 ### [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2066s) 泰晤士河水闸的隐喻：工作与家庭的“减压舱” 当 Steven Bartlett 问及她在 20 多年的职业生涯中究竟汲取了哪些广博的养分时，Brené Brown 笑称这是一个既难回答又让人兴奋的问题。她每天不仅精读学术论文，清晨还会翻阅《华尔街日报》、《纽约时报》、《彭博社》和《金融时报》，但她绝大部分的洞察实际上来自各种意想不到的生活故事与跨界隐喻。 在《坚实根基》中，她最喜欢的一章探讨了“下班回到家庭的转换期”。很多职场人都有过这种经历：在公司杀伐果断、全力以赴，推开家门却依然带着指挥下属的强硬气场，引得伴侣不满抱怨：“听着，我知道你工作压力很大，但我不是你的员工，请换个挡！”Steven Bartlett 在一旁心照不宣地笑着回答“无可奉告”。Brené 将这一转换过程比作运河上的“水闸”（Lock）： - **灵感源头**：源于奇幻小说《伦敦河灵》（*The Rivers of London*）中关于泰晤士河（Thames）两位神祇的描述。Brené 特意前往位于特丁顿（Teddington）的水闸实地考察，跟着女闸长杰玛（Gemma）上了一堂 3 小时的实操课，亲自操控水闸放行窄船（narrowboats）。 - **心理机制**：人在职场高压环境下往往整天处于“闭锁专注”（locking in）与模块化切割的状态；下班后之所以很多人宁愿坐在车库里刷 30 分钟 TikTok 也不敢进门，是因为他们极度需要一个像水闸一样的缓冲舱（chamber），通过改变水位来让自己的节奏平复下来。在心理学中，这被称为“认知与领域转换”（Cognitive and Domain Shifting）。 - **闸长的忠告**：当时 Brené 急躁地问闸长能不能加速蓄水放行，闸长严肃地告诫她：“过水闸需要多久就是多久，如果强行加速，船只就有倾覆翻船的危险（risk capsizing）。”职场人若跳过心理过渡期直接撞进充满琐碎家务（找护胫、找护目镜、补签假条）的现实家庭生活，必然会引发剧烈的情绪翻船。 ### [38:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2300s) 美式橄榄球与口袋意识：在盲区中做决策 除了运河水闸，体育也是 Brené Brown 提炼领导力模型的重要源泉。她回忆起自己站在德克萨斯大学长角牛队（Texas Longhorns）的 DKR 橄榄球场边，与前职业球员兼作家伊曼纽尔·阿乔（Emmanuel Acho）交流的场景。她向阿乔请教如何定义美式橄榄球中的“口袋意识”（Pocket Presence）。 在比赛中，四分卫开球后，防守方大约 1200 磅重（约合千斤）的强壮球员会凶猛扑来，试图将四分卫撞倒在地。而进攻锋线球员（Offensive Line）则会围成一个保护圈，即所谓的“口袋”。四分卫平均只有 2.8 到 3 秒的时间在口袋内观察全场、判断防守布局并决定传球或跑球。阿乔给出了一个让商业领袖深思的定义：“**在无法看清全场的情况下阅读比赛，并且足够信任团队，即便看不见所有细节也敢于果断采取行动。**” 这种“口袋意识”完美对应了卓越领导者所必备的几项底层素质： - **时间感知（Temporal Awareness）**：传奇四分卫汤姆·布雷迪（Tom Brady）的口袋感知力极其惊人，据说他甚至能通过球鞋鞋钉感受草皮传来的震动，清晰察觉保护他的锋线队员所在的相对方位。 - **情境与前瞻感知（Situational and Anticipatory Awareness）**：如同顶级足球运动员（例如穆罕默德·萨拉赫 Mohamed Salah）传球，永远不是把球踢到前锋当前站立的死位置，而是踢往前锋即将跑位抵达的预判落点。 - **模式识别能力（Pattern Recognition）**：基于过往经验快速调取应对预案，在千钧一发之际精准应对瞬息万变的环境。 Brené Brown 强调，当前复杂多变的商业竞争环境，其高压与不确定性几乎与橄榄球赛场上的口袋生存如出一辙。接着，Steven Bartlett 顺着话题将焦点引申至“深度连结”（Connection）的价值，分享了自己曾通过经历体会到人际纽带重要性的心路历程。 ### [41:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2492s) 真正的联结与精神性：看见、听见与超越差异的纽带 斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向布芮尼·布朗（Brené Brown）提出了一个核心困惑：身处一个空前孤独、碎片化且深陷精神危机的时代，人们常说的“联结”（Connection）究竟意味着什么？它仅指微观层面的伴侣、朋友与人际关系，还是必须向上延伸，融入所在的城镇、社区、甚至某种更宏大的存在？布芮尼给出了极为坚定的回答：“我们从神经生物学的角度生来就渴望与人联结；而在缺乏联结的地方，必然伴随着苦难（suffering）。”从镜像神经元到神经系统在彼此倾听时的同频共振，人类的身体构造本身就在渴望联结。在她眼中，微观层面的联结意味着一种双向奔赴的互动：彼此既能给予也能接纳，使人在其中感受到自己真正被看见、被倾听、被信任与被珍视。 除了人际间的微观联结，归属感以及意识到自己属于某种超越自我的宏大存在，同样是不可剥夺的原初需求。布芮尼将“精神性”（spirituality）定义为：通过某种高于我们自身的事物，不可分割地与他人联结在一起。这种宏大的纽带在每个人心中各有不同——对某些人来说是爱，对某些人来说是钓鱼，而对布芮尼而言则是她深刻的宗教信仰与上帝。她向所有人抛出了一个深刻的提问：“什么是那个能够超越一切差异的事物？”面对政治偏见、意识形态分歧、种族、性别、社会阶层乃至不同信仰的鸿沟，究竟凭借什么才能让我们回归共通的人性？布芮尼坦言，自己的处事准则就是在遇见的每一个人脸上探寻神性的光辉——哪怕在某些瞬间，自己内心甚至有冲动想“一拳砸在对方喉咙上”，她依然会提醒自己：无论自己喜不喜欢对方，在某种超越世俗的层面上，彼此依然息息相通。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 人类联结与精神性结构 accDescr: 展示从神经生物学微观人际联结上升到超越差异的精神性宏观联结的层次框架 subgraph MicroLevel ["微观维度：人际神经联结"] A["镜像神经元与神经生物同频"] --> B["双向互动：给予与接收"] B --> C["被看见、被倾听、被信任与被珍视"] end subgraph MacroLevel ["宏观维度：超越人性的精神性"] D["超越自我的宏大纽带<br/>（爱 / 信仰 / 共同追求）"] --> E["跨越政治、阶级、种族鸿沟"] E --> F["承认彼此不可割裂的共通人性"] end MicroLevel --> MacroLevel ``` ### [44:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2661s) 真正归属感与独处的勇气：“合群”是对自我最大的背叛 斯蒂芬翻开布芮尼的著作《勇往直前》（*Braving the Wilderness*），探讨了其副标题所蕴含的深刻悖论——“追求真正的归属感与孤身伫立的勇气”（The quest for true belonging and the courage to stand alone）。斯蒂芬好奇，归属与孤身伫立看似截然相反，为何二者缺一不可？布芮尼一针见血地指出：“如果你首先不属于你自己，你就无法真正属于任何事物或任何群体。”真正的归属感要求我们真实地展现自我，而不是为了迎合外界去扭曲或改变自己。恰恰相反，“迎合融入（fitting in）是对真正归属感的最大威胁”。 这种对“合群”的渴望往往源自童年的生存本能，人们习惯像变色龙一样伪装自己以求接纳。然而，这种变色龙般的技能背后的残酷代价，是你在合群的过程中背叛的第一个人就是你自己。回顾《勇往直前》的写作，布芮尼认为这是自己最具预见性的一本书，准确击中了当代社会的“大分类”（the big sort）现象——人们纷纷退缩进狭隘的意识形态掩体中。在这些掩体内部，联结的纽带不再是真诚的理解，而是共同的仇恨：“我不认识你，但因为我们憎恨同一批人，我把你当朋友；而那边的血亲家人，仅仅因为与我政见不合，在我的生命中便毫无意义。” 布芮尼用一个生动的翻桌子比喻揭露了这种“伪联结”（counterfeit connection）的脆弱与虚妄： - 两个人因为相同的移民立场，把桌子掀翻充当掩体并肩蹲在后面，对外宣泄敌意：“我们是对的，外面那帮人全是疯子！” - 然而，一旦其中一人提出哪怕一丝理性的质疑：“法国乘橡皮艇过来的难民危机涉及就业与住房，我们不得不面对，该怎么解决呢？” - 另一人便会立刻翻脸：“你出局了。” - 这种所谓的情感依托彻底建立在“绝不能质疑既定教条”的前提上，一旦失去同温层的盲从，伪装的联结便瞬间粉碎。 ### [47:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2850s) 处于交火地带的播客主持：在无主之地坚守人性底线 布芮尼的比喻让斯蒂芬深有感触。斯蒂芬坦言，作为一名访谈类播客主持人，自己曾先后邀请了卡玛拉·哈里斯（Kamala Harris）、米歇尔·奥巴马（Michelle Obama）、乔丹·彼得森（Jordan Peterson）以及不同立场的极端人物。全球几乎极少有主持人的嘉宾名单能同时跨越这种两极光谱。这种不偏不倚的立场却让他陷入了深刻的孤独与“无归属感”——极左翼和极右翼会同时向他倾泻恶意的攻击。布芮尼对此感同身受地支持道：“如果你没有同时遭到极左和极右两端的恶毒威胁，说明你根本没有把本职工作做好。”但她也承认，这种境遇会让人心碎，它无比真实地印证了为什么必须具备孤身伫立的勇气，因为它会将你真正的归属范围筛选淘汰（winnow）到极少数知己身上。 斯蒂芬道出了自媒体人的现实困境：投靠某一方阵营是极其具有诱惑力的，因为“群体之中有安全感”。每当被左翼围剿时，右翼阵营看起来格外迷人；而被右翼炮轰时，左翼阵营又显得温馨可亲。孤身站在交火的“无人区”（no man's land）是世界上最艰难的事。斯蒂芬深知自己无法强迫受众变得理性与深刻，哈里斯的节目一上线，前三分钟的评论区必然充斥着纯粹情绪化的谩骂。但他真正的思维方式是天然中立的，他能在不同立场的人身上分别看到各自的善意与合理观点，这使他在两极分化的网络环境中感到极其格格不入。 布芮尼则分享了自己在开放对话与拒绝沟通之间的清晰红线： - **拒绝对话的绝对红线**：只要对方的言行残酷刻薄、人身攻击，或者其核心信念在“质疑我或他人的基本人性”（question my humanity），对话就必须终止。为了展示所谓的“包容多面”而忍受非人化的对待，是对自我的根本背叛。 - **非人化（Dehumanization）的危险机制**：人类在生物学机制上天生存在抑制伤害同类的心理机制，并不倾向于虐待、屠杀、强暴同胞。 - **道德包容圈（Circle of moral inclusion）的剥夺**：施害者要对受害者施暴，首先必须在心理上将对方驱逐出“道德包容圈”，视其不再享有基本的人性权利。 - **语言是非人化的第一步**：纵观人类历史，将特定群体驱逐出安全区的第一步永远是语言。例如某些政客将移民群体污名化为“害虫滋生/蔓延”（infestation），其词汇完全等同于对待老鼠或害兽的修辞，这是开启暴力与冷酷暴行的最危险信号。 ### [52:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3141s) 对话的道德底线与拒绝选边的孤独 布芮尼·布朗（Brené Brown）明确划定了自己参与艰难对话的唯一底线：如果对方的意识形态立足于“道德排斥”（moral exclusion）——例如将女性视作犬类、将移民贬为非法非人之物——那么这种人对她而言就“太危险了”，她绝不会与之对话。但除此之外，她愿意同任何人交谈。布芮尼感慨道，她完全理解为什么许多人会急于选边站队，因为选择站在中间、“不站队”其实是一条极其孤独的道路。 史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此深有共鸣。他提到自己和从节目开播第一天起就合作的制作人杰克（Jack）经常讨论这种诱惑。史蒂文分享了一件让他引以为傲的事：曾有一位并不喜欢他的记者在报道中写道，他们“无法确定他究竟属于哪个政党”。在史蒂文看来，这恰恰是对他新闻专业主义精神（journalistic ethos）的最高褒奖。主流媒体往往极力想给人贴上“右翼”或其他政治标签，而保持没有预设偏见的立场，不仅让他能够更好地履行主持人的职责，也让他能够怀着纯粹的初衷去重新认识每一个新结识的嘉宾。 ### [53:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3234s) 永不满足的好奇心与回避型人格的“梦魇” 布芮尼赞许史蒂文在不带成见接触他人方面做得很出色，因为他身上有一种“永不满足的好奇心”。然而史蒂文苦笑着表示，这种特质既美妙又可怕——尤其是对具有“回避型依恋”（avoidant）倾向的人而言。他最近与人交谈时深刻意识到，如果一个人对展现脆弱（vulnerability）感到不自在，那么面对他连珠炮般的深度探问，自己简直就是对方“该死的终极噩梦”。布芮尼忍不住大笑赞同：“你确实是！” 有趣的是，布芮尼指出她并不认为史蒂文自身是一个极度脆弱开放的人，而是更接近一种“谨慎乐观型的脆弱”。在她看来，史蒂文在认知层面是一个坚定的信仰者，并在理性上认同脆弱的价值，目前正试图将自己的其余部分也带动到这一状态中。 ### [54:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3277s) 平台责任与科学事实核查：招募博士核实共识 布芮尼将话题引向媒体平台的把关责任：作为一个秉持机会均等、好奇心旺盛的传播者，面对数以千万计的受众，平台在核实嘉宾言论（尤其是涉及科学等严谨领域）的可信度上究竟承担着怎样的责任？ 史蒂文坦承，播客圈的主持人大多没有接受过传统记者的专业训练，但当节目规模急剧扩张后，公众对他们的审视标准也会水涨船高。为此，他们在约一年半前做出了一项重要决定：聘请了一位博士全职负责事实核查。每期播客录制完成后，这位博士会系统梳理嘉宾的所有言论；一旦发现某些观点不符合现有的科学界共识，节目组便会在视频画面上直接打出字幕提示。史蒂文坦言这绝非一个毫无争议的轻松决定，甚至会引来部分受众的反感，但他认为这是平台的必要担当： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 播客内容科学核查与呈现流程 accDescr: 展示节目从嘉宾录制到博士核查、识别非共识观点并向观众公开提示的完整流程。 subgraph ContentInput["内容录制与输入"] A["嘉宾深度对话录制"] --> B["全职 PhD 展开事实核查"] end subgraph FactCheck["科研评估与分流"] B --> C{"是否符合科学界共识？"} C -- "是" --> D["正常呈现对话内容"] C -- "否 / 存在争议" --> E["屏幕弹窗批注与争议提示"] end subgraph Audience["受众呈现"] D --> F["捍卫受众认知自决权"] E --> F end ``` - **善良而非讨好（Kind vs Nice）**：史蒂文引用布芮尼的观点强调，节目的目标不是为了当老好人（nice），而是真正做到出于善意（kind）。正如探讨人工智能（AI）危机时，明知观众听了会焦虑不安，但如果专家警告“前面有辆公交车冲撞过来”，假装不存在是不负责任的，直面不适才能推动社会前行。 - **去中心化媒体的困惑**：在媒体高度平民化的当下，受众极易被海量真假难辨的信息误导，平台必须尽可能为听众提供准确坐标。 ### [57:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3453s) 认知自决权与疫情期间的荒诞记忆 布芮尼对这一做法表达了高度敬意。她直言，最轻松的选择莫过于“完全放任嘉宾畅所欲言，把辨别真伪的包袱全甩给受众，对事实和可信度不负任何责任”。布芮尼表示自己深信科学，丈夫是一名医生，自己则是社会科学家。但她同时清醒地指出，科学体系不能变成固步自封的闭环，对同行评议和临床试验的质疑与挑战同样至关重要。因此，邀请持不同见解的人发声，同时在屏幕上清晰提示该观点缺乏充分数据支持或属于争议性假说，本质上是“尊重受众的认知自决权”（respecting people's cognitive self-determination）。 谈及虚假信息的危害，布芮尼回忆起新冠疫情爆发时创办播客的经历。她居住在休斯敦，那里坐落着全球规模最大的医疗中心。疫情初期，当地医院的医生与一线医护人员频繁殉职，葬礼接连不断；然而与此同时，各大播客平台上却充斥着“病毒根本不存在”、甚至宣称“用汽车玻璃水（Windex）就能治病”的荒谬言论。这也促使她卷入了平台内容责任的风波。 ### [01:00:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3621s) 从零到月活七千万：在高速狂奔中坚守价值观 针对平台如何平衡内容管制与言论自由，布芮尼与史蒂文达成共识：这犹如走钢丝，绝无完美方案——既不能由政府越权裁定何为“绝对真理”，也不能任由平台沦为脱离科学事实的阴谋论温床。布芮尼指出，核心在于审视驱动决策的根本动机到底是什么：是为了追逐纯粹的下载量与流量，还是为了真正利他？如果唯一的考量是点击率，媒体往往会毫不犹豫地倒向最极端、最吸睛的阴谋论。 史蒂文坦陈了自己的心路历程：《CEO日记》在短短四年半时间内，月听众规模从零爆炸式跃升至 7000 万人，他和团队几乎是在毫无成熟经验的状况下边学边跑、“拼命抓紧栏杆不被甩下车”。在海量来自各方的情绪化反馈中，他们学会了过滤掉无理的噪音；但只要遇到直击节目初衷与核心价值观的建设性批评，他们便会果断调整创新，在屏幕上添加科研批注弹窗便是这一进化过程中的关键成果。 ### [01:02:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3742s) 平台守门人的底线与“躺平长肌肉”的荒谬嘉宾 在探讨内容平台的社会责任时，Steven Bartlett 坦言这始终是一场走钢丝般的平衡之举。平台的初衷并不是全盘否定嘉宾所说的一切，而是尽量提供客观的背景信息与语境。然而，如果某些内容荒诞至极，团队唯一的选择就是彻底放弃播出。Steven 举了一个令人啼笑皆非的真实案例：曾有一位嘉宾在录制时言之凿凿地宣称，人只要躺在地上什么都不做，就能凭空练出肌肉。“你根本不需要读到博士学位，也能明白躺在地上是练不出肌肉的。”最终该期节目被直接压下、永不见天日。 听到这个例子，拥有博士学位的 Brené Brown 幽默地插话打趣道：“作为一名博士，我可以作证我也试过躺着不动，结果连个屁用都没有！”两人在笑声中碰撞出共鸣。Brené 认真地指出，这正是她愿意接受邀请坐在这里录播客的原因之一——她由衷尊重制作团队这种求真、自省的把关态度。Steven 承认团队并不完美，但一直在努力摸索前行，而 Brené 则鼓励道，这种坦诚与探索本身就是一种值得尊敬的修行之道。 ### [01:03:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3801s) 创业门槛的演变与全能工具的赋能 Steven 在节目插播中回顾了商业世界在过去十五年间发生的翻天覆地变化。在过去，打造一个品牌需要雄厚的启动资金、实体仓库、气派的办公场地以及庞大的员工团队；而在今天，只要拥有一台笔记本电脑、一个想法以及合适的数字工具，任何人都能白手起家创办企业。 - **商业模式的转变**：从依赖重资产、实体办公与密集劳动力的传统模式，全面转向以轻量化数字工具驱动的敏捷创业。 - **集成化运营**：诸如 Shopify 等平台将店铺设计、支付网关、库存管理、物流运输乃至 AI 辅助工具整合至同一后台，帮助初创团队在混乱庞杂的起步阶段理清头绪，并支持跨网站和主流社交平台的无缝多渠道销售。 ### [01:04:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3858s) 脆弱的真正定义：特种部队与职业球队的勇气之问 话题转向 Brené Brown 最具标志性的研究领域：在当今社交网络充斥着大量虚假、表演性脆弱（performative vulnerability）的环境下，做一个真正脆弱的人到底是否重要？它对个体的健康、幸福与未来究竟意味着什么？Brené 首先给出了严格的学术定义：脆弱并非软弱无能，而是“我们在面对不确定性（uncertainty）、风险（risk）以及情绪暴露（emotional exposure）时所体验到的那份情感”。它是那种令人尴尬、脚趾抠地、极度别扭却又无比真实的内心震颤。 为了打破公众将脆弱等同于软弱的刻板认知，Brené 分享了她前往布拉格堡（Fort Bragg）与美军特种部队合作时的震撼经历。她当时向在场的特种兵抛出一个严苛的问题：“请给我一个你们亲历或目睹过的勇气案例，前提是该案例不需要承担任何不确定性、风险或情绪暴露。”全场鸦雀无声，无人能答。最终，一名经历了三次海外实战部署的年轻士兵站起来沉痛承认：“没有脆弱，就根本不存在勇气。”仅仅一周之后，Brené 在面对 NFL 西雅图海鹰队（Seattle Seahawks）的职业橄榄球运动员时提出了完全相同的问题，队员们同样得出了唯一的结论：在赛场内外，若你事先知道结局、毫无风险与暴露，那充其量只是一场演出，绝非勇敢。 Brené 总结道，勇气的本质就是在无法预知结果时，依然选择全然投入并毫无保留地展现自己。“什么是脆弱？脆弱就是在一段关系中率先说出‘我爱你’。”面对 Brené 突如其来的直球发问：“你曾经率先说过‘我爱你’吗？”Steven 显得有些措手不及，略带羞怯地坦承自己确实很久没有置身于那种必须冒险由自己迈出第一步的境地了。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 脆弱与勇气的核心三角模型 accDescr: 解释脆弱的三个核心要素，以及它们如何构成勇气的基石。 subgraph Core["脆弱的核心要素 (Vulnerability)"] U["不确定性<br/>Uncertainty"] R["潜在风险<br/>Risk"] E["情绪暴露<br/>Emotional Exposure"] end subgraph Outcome["勇气的终极体现 (Courage)"] C["真正的勇敢<br/>无法预知结局，依然全力以赴"] end U --> C R --> C E --> C ``` ### [01:07:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4020s) 巧克力熔岩蛋糕惨剧与“敢于惨败”的真正姿态 为了具象化那种率先敞开心扉的窒息感，Brené 讲述了一段发生在洛杉矶演讲后的啼笑皆非的真实故事。当时一名二十二三岁的年轻人穿过散场的人群走向她，希望能分享 Brené 的研究如何改变了他的人生。Brené 停下脚步倾听，周围也逐渐围满了观众。 男孩讲述道，他此前极度迷恋一个正在约会的女孩。在受到 Brené 理论的鼓舞后，他精心策划了一场告白：他带女孩去了两人最爱的餐厅，一直隐忍等到餐后最喜欢的甜品——巧克力熔岩蛋糕端上桌的浪漫瞬间，鼓足勇气看着她的眼睛深情告白：“我爱你。”然而，女孩只是冷静地看着他回应道：“我觉得你人特别好，但我想我们应该去跟其他人约会。”说完这句冰冷的话，女孩便叫了一辆 Uber 扬长而去，留下男孩一个人在餐桌前凌乱。听到这里，Brené 忍不住在心里暗骂：“天呐，这是我听过最糟糕、最翻车的故事了，到底什么时候剧情才能反转？” 男孩接着讲述了他的心路历程：他一个人开车回家，一路上咬牙切齿地反复咒骂着：“去你妈的 Brené Brown！去你妈的 Brené Brown！”回到公寓推开门，两个正在电脑前联机的室友抬头问他战况如何。当他坦白自己说了“我爱你”却换来一句“你人很好”时，其中一个室友立刻嘲笑他愚蠢：“你到底在想什么？恋爱规则根本不是这样的！你追得越紧，对方跑得越远；你必须假装后撤，对方才会靠过来！”就在那一刹那，男孩突然顿悟了，他反驳室友：“不，我绝不要成为那种玩弄推拉套路的人。我今晚是在敢于惨败、大胆去爱（daring greatly）。”话音刚落，两位室友眼眶泛红，肃然起敬地对他说：“敬你是个汉子，哥们儿，干得漂亮！”Brené 感叹道，如果不去冒险将真实的自己推向风口浪尖，人又怎么有资格宣称自己拥有勇气？ ### [01:09:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4157s) 信任与脆弱的层层递进：警惕“砸烂抢跑”的防御盔甲 Steven 将话题引申到许多人在现实生活中的情感创伤。他提到前一天刚与一位遭遇过伴侣出轨、童年早期存在严重依恋创伤的女性长辈交流。每当 Steven 试图探讨稍有深度的个人情感问题时，对方就会本能地关闭心门。对方直言不讳地表示，她将展现脆弱视作一种极具威胁的亲密形式，因此必须在百分之百彻底信任某人之后才敢敞开一点点心扉。Steven 指出，这在现代人中极为普遍：因为曾经受伤而拒绝敞开，导致无法建立深层联结，最终陷入孤独、单身与痛苦的恶性循环。 Brené 深刻剖析了信任与脆弱之间看似先有鸡还是先有蛋的微妙共生关系。她指出，二者绝对不是单向的前提条件，而是一种缓慢、交替递进的“层层堆叠”（slow stacking）过程： 1. **微小互动**：我向你袒露一点点脆弱，你予以积极、安全的接纳； 2. **信任滋生**：基于你的安全回应，我对你产生了一分信任； 3. **循环深化**：有了这一分信任，我才敢进一步袒露更深层的真实自我，双方的关系承重墙由此一砖一瓦地建立起来。 Brené 严厉警告了那种极具破坏性的“试金石测试”（litmus testing）或被称为“砸烂抢跑”（smash and grab）的假脆弱现象。有些人一见面就抛出自己最黑暗、最痛苦的童年创伤，这根本不是健康的脆弱，而是一种倒打一耙的防御盔甲（armor）。这种人潜意识里在想：“我要扔给你一个我们脆弱的新关系根本无法承受的重磅炸弹。当你被吓退时，我就可以得意地印证自己的悲观预设——‘看吧，我就知道脆弱是危险的，我就知道你根本不可信！’” Brené 强调，对方后退不是因为不可信，而是因为这段关系尚未经过时间的考验，根本无力承受如此沉重的故事负荷。真正的亲密与信任，唯有从微小、双向的坦诚中循序渐进才能诞生。 ### [01:11:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4300s) 聚光灯效应与铠甲的防御机制 过快、过度的暴露并非真正的脆弱，而常常会引发人际间的本能防御。布琳·布朗（Brené Brown）经常与军方合作，她用军用强光探照灯来打比方：如果有人突然把一束高亮度的强光直直照进你的脸上，人的第一生理反应必然是遮挡双眼、向后退缩。过量且过急的自我袒露在人际互动中就会产生相同的“聚光灯效应”（spotlighting）——面对突如其来的过度倾诉，接收者往往没有足够的心理归档机制去安放这些信息，只能尴尬或警惕地退后。健康的信任与脆弱绝非一蹴而就，而是在日积月累中缓慢堆叠起来的。 布琳强调，许多人在成长中经历过创伤，他们所披上的厚重“铠甲”（armor）并非无理取闹，而是在严酷环境下为了“纯粹生存”演化出来的自我保护机制。尤其当叠加了种族、性别、性取向等社会系统结构性因素时，这种铠甲更是性命攸关的防御盾牌。对于一位事业有成、地位稳固的资深学者而言，在新团队面前坦白过去的失败，大家会报以掌声并赞叹她的勇敢；但如果要求一位新加入团队的年轻黑人女性或首位 LGBTQ+ 成员第一天就暴露弱点，这不仅不现实，而且极为危险。布琳直言：“别跟任何人掏心掏肺（Don't tell anybody shit），先建立信任，先观察这个群体是否具备承担自身行为责任的能力。”虽然每个人都需要脆弱才能建立深度联结，但对于弱势群体而言，卸下防备的门槛和风险要高得多。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 创伤铠甲与信任建立过程 accDescr: 展示从生存防御的铠甲到逐步建立信任并安全展现脆弱的路径机制 subgraph Defense ["防御机制（铠甲）"] A["创伤经历 / 社会边缘身份"] --> B["建立防护铠甲<br/>（生存必须）"] B --> C["突兀的过度袒露<br/>（聚光灯效应，引发抗拒）"] end subgraph TrustBuilding ["健康建立路径"] D["敏锐观察环境<br/>评估团队问责能力"] --> E["缓慢堆叠信任与微小脆弱"] E --> F["安全卸下铠甲<br/>体验深度联结"] end B -.->|不提倡直接强推脆弱| D ``` --- ### [01:14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4441s) 喜悦的脆弱性与“预兆性喜悦” 作为学者，布琳研究生涯中最令人痛心的发现之一，就是无论披上铠甲的理由多么充分、多么情有可原，**只要拒绝脆弱，就永远无法触及人生中最有意义的体验**。爱本身就是脆弱的代名词——从清晨睁眼到夜晚入睡，深爱一个人就意味着主动承担失去与悲恸的巨大风险。父母对孩子的爱宛如“让自己的心脏暴露在身体之外游走”。然而，人类最脆弱、最难承受的情绪并非悲伤或愤怒，而是“喜悦”（joy）。 喜悦之所以令人难以承受，是因为它太美好、太不可控。为了防止自己被突如其来的失望迎头痛击，许多人在靠近极致喜悦的瞬间，会下意识地启动心理防御，布琳称之为“彩排悲剧以应对失望”（dress rehearse tragedy to prepare for disappointment）。很多人宁可选择长年生活在低沉的失望中，也不愿冒着失望的风险去全身心投入期待。 - **孩子的勇敢**：布琳回忆孩子们幼年时渴望入选球队的经历。当孩子鼓起勇气说“妈妈，我真的很想进这个队”时，她打断并称赞道：敢于公开表达对无法掌控之物的渴望，本身就是非凡的勇气。即便落选会遭受沉重打击，她也会在身旁全然接纳。 - **预兆性喜悦（Foreboding Joy）**：越是有创伤经历的人，越容易在好运或幸福降临的当下感到不安，心里盘算着“另一只靴子什么时候会掉下来”，甚至觉得“从概率上讲，厄运马上就要降临了”。 - **生理颤栗的应对**：面对喜悦时身体会产生一种脆弱的颤栗感（bodily quiver）。布琳在长期研究中发现，能够真正沉浸于喜悦中的人群，唯一共同的秘诀就是将这种颤栗作为提示符，立刻启动**感恩（Gratitude）**练习。 --- ### [01:16:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4614s) 舞会之夜的感恩急救法 感恩并非与生俱来的本能反应，而是一种需要反复刻意训练的技能。布琳分享了自己生活中的一个生动场景：高中舞会（prom）那天晚上，她站在家门口，看着 16 岁的女儿挽着男友的手走过人行道，坐进对方的皮卡车。面对这一幕美好至极的画面，布琳内心的恐惧与灾难化联想瞬间爆发——她没有像军人家庭常担心的那样害怕怀孕，而是极度恐惧发生致命车祸。 为了克制自己冲动地跳进皮卡跟在女儿后面全程跟踪监视的念头，布琳站在丈夫史蒂夫（Steve）和当时仅 10 岁的儿子查理（Charlie）身边，像念咒一样飞快地自言自语：“我很感恩，我非常感恩，我感恩这个时刻，感恩我能参与其中，感恩我们一起挑选了胸花与礼服，我真的很感恩……”查理困惑地看着母亲，转头问父亲：“妈妈这是怎么了？”史蒂夫淡定地回答道：“她在练习感恩，让她念吧，不然她马上就要精神崩溃、大发雷霆了。”正是通过即时的、具象的感恩练习，布琳才成功制止了内心的灾难化思维，接纳了那份令人战战兢兢的极致幸福。 --- ### [01:18:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4703s) 放弃“抵达终点”的执念 当主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问布琳是否已经克服了过去的负面特质时，布琳果断予以纠正：“我正在克服，但我绝没有‘已经克服’。我真正克服的，是‘以为自己终有一天能大功告成（抵达终点）’的执念。” 虽然她习得了更多新技能，让自己更贴近理想中的母亲、伴侣与领导者，但她始终保持着敏锐的自我觉察： - **恐惧时具有攻击性**：“我在害怕时非常具有威慑力（scary when I'm scared）。” - **极易灾难化思维**：大脑会瞬间滑向最坏情境，这会给身边的人带来极大痛苦。 - **放弃讨好他人的捷径**：就在采访前两天，布琳置身于一个社交场合，她清晰地知道只要顺着对方迎合，就能轻易赢得所有人的喜爱。但在那一刻，她选择了做自己，即便这意味着可能不那么受欢迎。她感叹道：“过去为了讨好别人，我最先背叛的是自己；而现在，我绝不再背叛自己。” 对于听众可能会因为“无法彻底根除自身缺陷”而感到沮丧，布琳给出了极具哲学深度的回应：如果人类真的能彻底修复所有弱点，再也不用与之博弈，那我们将对他人毫无宽容与慈悲之心（short on grace），最终沦为不可理喻的“暴君”（tyrants）。正因为深知自身的挣扎与软弱，布琳在面对他人的糟糕举动时，能够看穿其防御背后的创伤机制，做到坚定设立边界、不纵容该行为的同时，却不怀带道德优越感去审判对方。在对谈的结尾，当被问及现在是否喜欢自己时，布琳沉思片刻后释然地微笑道：“是的，我喜欢正在逐渐长成的那个自己（I like what I'm becoming）。” ### [01:21:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4915s) 阻碍勇敢的不是恐惧，而是我们赖以自卫的“铠甲” 布琳·布朗（Brené Brown）指出，在她过去二十五年的研究中，最核心的一项发现就是：阻碍我们在生活和工作中展现勇敢的，从来都不是恐惧本身，而是我们的“铠甲”（Armor）。害怕是人之常情，感到恐惧是完全正常的；真正危险的是我们在恐惧袭来时，出于自我保护本能下意识去抓取的防卫铠甲。这些厚重的铠甲会硬生生将人推离爱、人际联结以及自身的核心价值观。布琳坦言，对自己而言，最艰巨的功课莫过于时刻保持自我觉察——觉察自己到底在抓取什么铠甲来保护脆弱的自尊心和自我价值感，以及这副铠甲到底有多么沉重。 在她成长过程中，这些防卫机制曾是生存所必需的手段。然而，步入中年正是人生重大的发展转折点。布琳形象地比喻道，中年就像是宇宙猛地抓住你的肩膀，把你拉到眼前严厉地警告：“我不会再跟你开玩笑了。我赋予了你天赋与才华，选择不去兑现它们绝非无害，必须为此承担后果；而你的铠甲正是最大的绊脚石。你现在已经是个成年人了，拥有不同的选择权，必须放下那些不再对你成长有益的东西。”能否卸下这副妨碍自我蜕变的铠甲，正是中年阶段必须直面的课题，而其核心始终关乎脆弱（Vulnerability）。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 恐惧与自卫铠甲的互动机制 accDescr: 展示恐惧如何诱发铠甲，进而阻碍人际联结与真实成长 subgraph Trigger["心理诱因"] Fear["感到恐惧 / 脆弱"] end subgraph Defense["防御反应：抓取铠甲"] ArmorWork["职场铠甲<br/>完美主义、微观管理、鲁莽决断"] ArmorHome["生活铠甲<br/>试图掌控一切棋局、过度焦虑"] end subgraph Outcome["长远后果"] Blockade["疏离核心价值与真实爱意"] Growth["中年转折：放下铠甲，走向勇敢与自我信任"] end Fear --> ArmorWork Fear --> ArmorHome ArmorWork --> Blockade ArmorHome --> Blockade Blockade -.->|"觉察并卸除防御"| Growth ``` ### [01:24:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5046s) 勇气的对立面是自我保护：领导与家庭中的铠甲投射 识别铠甲需要极高的自我觉察，布琳认为借助生动的比喻能帮助人们理解这一心理机制——当一个人被逼入情感的死角时，他所展现出来的防御行为究竟是什么？布琳毫不避讳地剖析自己的盲点：作为一名管理者和领导者，她的铠甲表现为“完美主义”、“微观管理”（Micromanagement）、神经高度紧绷以及“鲁莽地做决定”，整个团队对她这些应激反应都心知肚明；而在家庭生活面对孩子时，一旦感受到脆弱，她的铠甲就会变成病态的“绝对控制”，恨不得掌控棋盘上的每一个棋子。 布琳强调，试图操控别人的人生乃至自己的人生，不过是一种虚幻的假象，其本质就是焦虑。人们之所以这么做，源头全在于害怕。因此，勇气的真正对立面并不是恐惧，而是用铠甲进行“自我保护”（Self-protection）。只有敢于暴露不确定性、放下自我防卫的坚壳，真正的勇敢才有可能发生。 ### [01:25:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5130s) 勇气的四大技能支柱 在最新著作《坚实之地》（Strong Ground）中，布琳提炼出了勇气的四大核心技能。这项扎根理论（Grounded Theory）研究始于约十五年前，历经大流行病、AI 爆发等近五年的剧烈社会变革，在覆盖45个国家、超过16.5万名受试者的数据检验下依然稳固成立。这些技能基于实证、可观察、可测量且完全可以通过后天训练习得： 1. **确立核心价值观**：清晰识别并深入理解自身最珍视的内在准则。 2. **直面脆弱并建设性穿越**：理解阻碍自己接纳脆弱的障碍，学会全然承担脆弱并建设性地跨越它。 3. **建立信任与自我信任**：不仅要掌握与他人建立信任的路径，更要重塑“对自己的信任”（Self-trust）。遭遇挫折与失败时，人们最先付出的代价往往是丧失对自身做决定和照顾自身能力的信任。 4. **挫折复位与弹性复原**：布琳最看重的技能，即在经历失败、失望和沉重打击后，如何重新站起来、完成系统复位（Reset），并掌握自我弹跳复原（Bounce）的方法。 ### [01:27:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5251s) 弹珠罐理论：信任是日常微小瞬间的积累 在探讨勇气当中的“信任”技能时，主持人拿出了一罐弹珠，布琳随即分享了著名的“弹珠罐理论”（Marble Jar Theory）的诞生契机。当时她的大女儿艾伦（Ellen）读小学四年级，某天放学回家一关上大门就瘫坐在地痛哭流涕。艾伦在课间休息时把一件难堪的私密心事悄悄告诉了一两位好友，结果回到教室时发现全班三十个同学全都知道了，大家都在指着她哄笑嘲讽。艾伦绝望地喊道：“我再也不会信任任何人了！”布琳当时作为母亲的第一直觉也是愤怒地想附和：“说得没错，谁也别信，在这个世界上你只管信任你妈妈就行！”但理性告诉她，不能剥夺孩子未来建立人际信任的能力。 为了向四年级的小学生讲明白什么是信任，布琳借用了艾伦班主任博卡姆老师（Mrs. Bockum）奖励全班的“弹珠罐”教具。布琳告诉女儿，信任就像这个弹珠罐：当别人守住秘密、做出关照你的举动时，就在罐子里投入一颗弹珠；当你需要分享极为私密的内心时，应当选择那些弹珠罐已经装满的朋友。艾伦随即想到了自己的两个“弹珠罐朋友”汉娜（Hannah）与洛娜（Lorna），并列举了她们赢得弹珠的具体细节： - 当艾伦在午餐食堂去晚了找不到空位时，洛娜主动挪出半个座位，两人挤在一张椅子上共进午餐； - 当艾伦因链球菌性咽喉炎（Strep Throat）缺课时，汉娜因担心她而让妈妈特意打电话询问病情； - 在艾伦的足球比赛上，汉娜一眼认出了前来看球的外公外婆（Oma & Opa），并热情打招呼。在离异重组、亲属关系极度复杂的家庭背景下，汉娜能准确记住这四对长辈的名字，让艾伦感受到了极大的尊重与在乎。 布琳被这些细节深深触动，这直接印证了约翰·戈特曼（John Gottman）关于信任的研究结论——信任绝非依靠惊天动地的宏大誓言，而是在日常每一个微小瞬间中赚取的。布琳分享了戈特曼最经典的一个亲身故事：戈特曼是个推理小说迷，某晚正读到小说倒数第二页的破案高潮，迫不及待起身去洗手间刷牙。路过浴室时，他看见妻子正一边梳头一边默默流泪。那一瞬间戈特曼心里闪过一丝自私的念头：“糟糕，别看，装作一切正常，赶紧刷完牙回床上去看结局。”但他立刻意识到这是一个“滑动门时刻”（Sliding Door Moment）——他面临着两个选择：是选择构建信任，停下来关切地问一句“发生什么事了？”；还是选择走向背叛，假装对伴侣的痛苦视而不见。最终戈特曼停下脚步，接过妻子手中的梳子替她梳理头发，轻声询问她的委屈。正是这些微小的选择，决定了关系的信任基石是固若金汤还是分崩离析。 ### [01:32:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5522s) 弹珠罐理论：领导者的信任不是“要求”来的，而是日常累积的 布琳·布朗（Brené Brown）指出，信任并不是在宏大时刻凭空产生的，而是像往玻璃罐里投弹珠一样，随着时间推移一颗一颗缓慢积攒起来的。这也是她向《财富》100强（Fortune 100）企业的最高层管理者讲授信任的核心模型——“弹珠罐理论”（The Marble Jar Theory）。许多领导者往往存在一种误区，尤其在危机来临时——比如遇到财务数据暴跌、关税政策突变或营收线告急时，他们习惯端出所谓的“高管气场”（Executive Presence），站在众人面前高呼：“大家请听我说，相信我，我们接下来要这样做。”布朗直言，这种空洞的保证对员工毫无意义。真正能让团队产生信任的，是平时在走廊擦肩而过时，领导者能停下脚步随口问一句：“史蒂文，早上好，你母亲最近的化疗还顺利吗？”正是这些微小却真诚的细节往罐子里放入了弹珠；当真正的风暴来临时，领导者根本不需要大喊“相信我”，大家早就发自内心地信赖你。 谈及领导力的困惑，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）补充道，管理者常常害怕自己做出的判断随后被外部变化推翻，从而失去威信，误以为信任建立在“永远正确、永远能精准预测未来”之上。布朗对此坚决否认。她认为高情商且值得信赖的领导者应当坦然承认失误：“我们原本以为把方案吃透了，但事实证明我们错了。大家为了这个项目拼命加班干了整整六个月，而今天我就站在这里，不得不亲口宣布取消它的优先级。我绝不忽悠你们，大家付出了巨大心血的目标确实不复存在了。我想先停下来，真诚地对大家说一声谢谢，我看到了你们所有的付出；我也想完全透明地解释为什么优先级必须调整，接着，我希望你们能带着同样的拼劲，投入到新的战略方向中。”这种透明与担当，反而是往信任罐里放入大颗弹珠的时刻。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 弹珠罐信任模型对比 accDescr: 对比传统领导者在危机中的错误信任建立方式与弹珠罐理论下的真实信任建立逻辑。 subgraph 错误认知["传统危机应对误区"] A1["危机爆发：营收暴跌/政策突变"] --> A2["摆出高管姿态要求员工：'相信我'"] A2 --> A3["员工内心疏离，缺乏安全感"] end subgraph 真实逻辑["弹珠罐理论（日常累积）"] B1["日常微小关怀：'你母亲化疗如何？'"] --> B2["累积信任弹珠"] B3["面对失误：坦白透明，认可付出"] --> B2 B2 --> B4["风暴来临：无需索求信任，团队自然跟随"] end ``` --- ### [01:34:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5647s) 击碎信任的真正杀手：比出轨更具毁灭性的情感疏离 谈话间出现了一个轻松而温馨的插曲：两人互相提醒对方脸上或衣服上粘了脱落的睫毛或碎屑。布朗笑着说：“看，这也是一颗弹珠！”史蒂文对此深有共鸣，指出如果有人冒着尴尬主动提醒你衣服上有脏东西或脸上有鼻涕，其实是一件值得感激的事，因为选择装作没看见显然容易得多。史蒂文随后分享了播客嘉宾曾对他说过的一句话：“我最信任那些愿意在公开场合说出违背自身短期利益之言的人。”布朗听后由衷赞叹这句洞察的精妙，这同样是在冒着风险兑现诚实。 然而，弹珠罐不仅能一颗颗装满，也会遭遇毁灭性的打击。在亲密关系或伙伴关系中，有些行为就像把整个玻璃罐狠狠砸向地面摔得粉碎，出轨（Cheating）无疑是典型的一例。但布朗强调，还有一种比出轨更折磨人、带有更“参差破碎之痛”（ragged edge of grief）的杀手——那就是无声而缓慢的“情感疏离”（Emotional Disengagement）。这种冷漠与抽离不是突然爆发的背叛，而是在漫长的岁月里一点点撤回关注、停止交流。它之所以极其残忍，是因为被冷落的另一方会陷入长期的自我怀疑，甚至怀疑自己是不是疯了、判断力是不是出了问题，在无尽的心理内耗中承受凌迟般的痛苦。 --- ### [01:35:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5751s) 商业插播：精准聚焦与高效内容生产工具 节目中途插入了两个支持本期播客的品牌赞助： - **Pipedrive**：面向中小企业的销售 CRM 平台，专为销售人员打造。初创团队往往在一个月还在疯狂抓取线索，下个月就被繁杂的任务淹没，进而做出情绪化的被动决策。该平台通过 AI 驱动的 Prospector 工具，可在超过4亿个档案中筛选出经过验证的决策者及其联系方式，帮助团队理清真正值得投入精力的核心商机。 - **Adobe Express**：轻量级设计与创作工具。史蒂文回顾自己24岁时给自己设立了每天在社交平台发帖的挑战，这一习惯既加速了他的认知沉淀，也为后来创立《CEO日记》（The Diary Of A CEO）积累了庞大的受众基础。他推荐使用该平台快速生成适用于 LinkedIn 和 Instagram 的视觉内容，降低非专业设计背景人员的内容创作门槛。 --- ### [01:37:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5878s) 维系三十年亲密关系的三项承诺：面对不完美与主动求助 史蒂文向布朗请教长期关系的经营智慧。史蒂文提到自己此前从布朗那里“偷师”过一个极其有用的沟通工具——“电量百分比法则”。比如有时候下班回家，自己的心理能量只剩 10%，如果不主动告知伴侣，对方可能会试图在这个节点去沟通严肃的矛盾，结果在凌晨一点把事情彻底搞砸；而开诚布公地说明自己的电量现状，能让双方立即建立理解与同理心。 谈到自己与丈夫史蒂夫（Steve）长达38年的婚姻，布朗直言他们成长过程中都没有见过所谓“健康亲密关系”的家庭范本。布朗给出的核心建议不是某种灵丹妙药，而是三项必须共同恪守的承诺： - **夫妻心理咨询与专业引导**：布朗强烈推荐伴侣咨询以及约翰·戈特曼与茱莉·戈特曼夫妇（John & Julie Gottman）的研究成果。史蒂文惊讶于像布朗这样自认容易在脆弱面前退缩的人竟会积极接受咨询，布朗坦言，自己虽然害怕袒露脆弱，但骨子里极度尊重“谦逊”（Humility）。哪怕内心抗拒，她也会“假装谦逊”逼自己坐进咨询室说“我需要帮助”，即使咨询师一针见血戳中痛处让她难堪，她也认可这种直面问题的过程。 - **三项维系长久关系的底线承诺**： 1. **持续在场（Keep showing up）**：无论局面多么艰难，绝不轻易离场或冷漠放弃。 2. **打破“关系应该很轻松”的幻想**：接受亲密关系可能是人生中最艰难的一项修行，绝不要被童话式的谎言误导。 3. **主动寻求外部帮助（Ask for help）**：通过阅读书籍、尝试新工具、接受专业辅导，永远保持学习和改进的心态，绝不自满于现状。 布朗感慨道，长达38年的相守绝非生活与家庭的长镜头电影那般浪漫平稳。在这漫长的岁月中，他们一起为父母送终，历经严重疾病的考验，共同抚养孩子长大，也多次熬过彼此步调完全不同步、充满摩擦的人生低谷。支撑他们走过来的，恰恰是承认不完美并坚持向彼此与专业求助的韧性。 ### [01:41:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=6089s) 母亲患阿尔茨海默病离世与照护者的沉重重担 Brené Brown 谈到自己的母亲在与阿尔茨海默病（认知障碍症/老年痴呆症）抗争四年后，在圣诞节当天离世。在这四年间，她和两个妹妹一直是母亲的主要照护者。Brené 毫不掩饰照料过程的艰辛与残酷，直言：“我连对我最痛恨的人都不忍心施加那种折磨。”她描述了照护病患的真实日常：当母亲发生失禁等意外时，作为女儿必须为母亲洗澡、擦身，而母亲仅存的微弱意识又恰好能感知到自己的窘迫与被羞辱感。这种照料工作在身体、精神和情感上都带来了巨大的消耗与重压，而在社会现实中，这种重担往往主要落在身处职场的女性肩上。 她坦言，即便自己拥有博士研究背景、坐拥丰厚的物质与医疗资源，并且还有两个姐妹分担日常工作，照护过程依然“差点要了我的命”。对于那些毫无外援或资源匮乏的普通照护者来说，这种挑战更是常人难以想象的。最令她心碎的是眼看着自己深爱的母亲“一点一滴、一块一块地破碎消逝”。她的母亲曾是全家的精神支柱与转折点——母亲率先走进心理咨询室，带着孩子们接受心理咨询，勇敢离开了父亲，一人打三份工撑起全家，并公开正视家族中深重的成瘾史，可以说彻底逆转了家族的命运轨迹。因此，母亲在 Brené 心中一直受到无可比拟的尊崇。 然而，认知障碍症在后期展现出极端残酷的一面。有一天当 Brené 前去探望时，母亲突然变得极其尖酸刻薄，重新展现出 Brené 自 14 岁后就再未见过的伤害性举动。当时已经 54 岁的 Brené 在心理上遭受了毁灭性打击，甚至当场崩溃到无法开车，只能瘫坐在地上，不得不由丈夫 Steve 驱车赶来将她接走。 - **照料分工与支持系统**：在此次创伤之后，Brené 整整两个月无法再去探望母亲。在此期间，三姐妹相互轮换支持——当一人濒临精神崩溃表示“我扛不住了”时，其他人便顶上去接替。 - **伴侣的真正担当**：丈夫 Steve 在这一艰难时期展现了真正的伴侣精神，主动包揽换尿布、陪母亲吃晚餐、与医生沟通对齐医疗方案等最棘手繁重的工作，给予了家庭无可替代的支撑。 --- ### [01:45:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=6314s) 面对哀恸与解脱：新书《Strong Ground》的诞生 面对主持人关于“如何应对丧亲之痛”的提问，Brené 给出了一个极度坦诚却可能引发争议的回答：“当她去世时，我心中只有彻底的解脱。”主持人 Steven Bartlett 也深有共鸣地表示，在所有经历过至亲饱受失智症折磨的人口中，听到的几乎全都是这种如释重负的感受。母亲去世的前一天，母女之间度过了一段弥足珍贵的平静时光。Brené 幽默而深情地追忆道，母亲生前在政治立场上非常激进，如今离世后，说不定正在天堂与安·理查兹（Ann Richards）、莫莉·艾文斯（Molly Ivins）等得克萨斯州传奇女性民主党政界人物一起打多米诺骨牌。 她指出，对失智症患者亲属而言，真正的哀恸期并不是从死亡那一刻才开始，而是贯穿了漫长的患病岁月。在患病早期，那种能够随时给母亲打电话报喜的日常就已荡然无存——无法再分享小儿子 Charlie 找到可爱的舞伴、查看返校节舞会的照片，或者女儿 Ellen 考上硕士研究生的喜讯，这些生活联结随着病程每周都在不可逆转地被剥离。 这段残酷的经历促使 Brené 彻底审视自己的健康。她的外婆同样患有阿尔茨海默病，当年是母亲和她一起照顾外婆；眼见家族两代女性受此病折磨，Brené 深刻意识到运动与预防认知衰退之间的紧密联系。她在卫生间的镜子上贴了一张便利贴，上面写着：“我宁愿做健身房里最老的女人，也不愿做养老院生活协助区里最年轻的女人。”这种身体与精神的觉醒直接孕育了她的新书《Strong Ground》： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 从体能训练到身心落地的蜕变过程 accDescr: 展示 Brené 从私教口令中领悟连接身体力量并最终发展为著作理念的演进流程 subgraph S1["身体觉察与口令"] A["私教下达指令<br/>'Find the ground, Brown'"] --> B["区分概念<br/>不是踏在地板上，而是深扎大地"] end subgraph S2["意识与力量连结"] B --> C["双脚用力踩向地面<br/>用意识唤醒身体背阔肌发力"] C --> D["动作重合时内心默念口令<br/>'Strong Ground' 扎稳根基"] end subgraph S3["理论与生命升华"] D --> E["凝练为著作《Strong Ground》核心隐喻<br/>兼具力量、韧性与精神智慧"] end ``` 一次举重训练中，教练对她说：“踩稳地面，布朗（Find the ground, Brown）！不是浮在地板上，而是深扎进大地。用双脚向地面扎根，让意识与身体建立连接，调动你的背阔肌。”当她真正感受到肌肉发力的那一刻，她开始在每次负重时都在心中默念“扎稳根基（Strong ground）”。这句训练口令最终升华为她探讨勇敢领导力、悖论韧性以及人类精神智慧的核心隐喻。 --- ### [01:48:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=6507s) 终极问题与告别：当下追寻的力量与生命韧性 进入播客的保留收尾环节，主持人拿出上一位嘉宾留下的神秘提问卡。上期嘉宾在不知晓下一位访客是谁的情况下，写下了这样一道问题：“亲爱、美丽且绝顶聪明的下一位访客：你当下最想要优化（追求）的目标是什么？” Brené 坚定而利落地回答：“力量与寿命（Strength and longevity）——在心智、身体、精神和情感四个维度上的全面强大与长久。”这一答案与她“扎稳根基（Strong ground）”的生命哲学完美呼应。 主持人 Steven Bartlett 随后向 Brené 表达了极高的敬意与感谢： - **听众最期盼的嘉宾**：Steven 透露，三四年来，Brené Brown 是节目听众呼声最高、点名要求采访次数最多的第一名嘉宾。 - **巫师般的洞察力**：Steven 形容 Brené 就像一位洞悉人类模式与本质的“巫师”，她跨维度的渊博视角与研究，在普通人眼中宛如魔法，而她的书籍（包括《Dare to Lead》、《Strong Ground》等）更是融合了众多认知层面的艺术品。 - **真诚的感召**：Steven 感慨 Brené 的真实深深激励了他去“做自己”。 - **圆满收尾**：Brené 也深情回应，表示虽然整场对话深入探讨了许多艰难、痛苦的话题，并不轻松，但却极其深刻而富有意义。 ## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=0s) 阻碍我们在生活与工作中勇敢前行的，从来不是恐惧本身，而是我们在恐惧时为了自我保护而抓取的“盔甲”。 — Brené Brown > [07:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=430s) Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder. — Brené Brown > [07:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=430s) 史蒂夫对你的喜爱与接纳，远比你自己对自己的喜爱要多得多；面对这样的爱，对你而言一定痛苦极了。 — Brené Brown > [15:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=923s) 任何伟大的前进之前，必然会经历一场倒退。 — Brené Brown > [34:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2066s) 过水闸需要多久就是多久，如果强行加速，船只就有倾覆翻船的危险。 — Brené Brown > [38:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2300s) 在无法看清全场的情况下阅读比赛，并且足够信任团队，即便看不见所有细节也敢于果断采取行动。 — Emmanuel Acho > [44:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2661s) 如果你首先不属于你自己，你就无法真正属于任何事物或任何群体。 — Brené Brown > [47:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=2850s) 如果你没有同时遭到极左和极右两端的恶毒威胁，说明你根本没有把本职工作做好。 — Brené Brown > [01:04:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=3858s) 没有脆弱，就根本不存在勇气。 — Brené Brown > [01:18:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=4703s) 过去为了讨好别人，我最先背叛的是自己；而现在，我绝不再背叛自己。 — Brené Brown > [01:34:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=5647s) 我最信任那些愿意在公开场合说出违背自身短期利益之言的人。 — Steven Bartlett > [01:45:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=6314s) 我宁愿做健身房里最老的女人，也不愿做养老院生活协助区里最年轻的女人。 — Brené Brown > [01:48:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs&t=6507s) 力量与寿命——在心智、身体、精神和情感四个维度上的全面强大与长久。 — Brené Brown ## Mentioned Brené Brown, Steven Bartlett, The Diary Of A CEO, Strong Ground, Atlas of the Heart, Braving the Wilderness, Dare to Lead, Pixar, Google, US Special Forces, Fortune 100, Trevor Noah, Steve Jobs, The Rivers of London, Emmanuel Acho, Texas Longhorns, Tom Brady, Mohamed Salah, Kamala Harris, Michelle Obama, Jordan Peterson, TikTok, OpenAI, Shopify, Seattle Seahawks, John Gottman, Julie Gottman, Pipedrive, Adobe Express, Ann Richards, Molly Ivins ## Video description No.1 vulnerability expert BRENÉ BROWN exposes how shame, fear, and perfectionism secretly control your life - and reveals proven ways to unlock courage, confidence, trust, connection, and joy. Brené Brown is a world-renowned research professor who has spent over two decades studying courage, vulnerability, shame, and empathy. She is also the author of 6 #1 New York Times bestsellers, including her recently published book, ‘Strong Ground’, and hosts two award-winning podcasts on leadership and human connection. She explains: ◼️The marble jar theory that changed how Fortune 100 companies build trust ◼️The 4 skill sets of courage you can train and measure ◼️Why fitting in is the greatest threat to true belonging ◼️How to identify your “armor” when you're afraid and drop it ◼️The gratitude practice that stops catastrophising in real-time (00:00) Intro (02:21) What Made Brené Who She Is? (07:10) Parents Affecting Your View of Love (10:34) 87 Human Emotions (11:37) Why Did Brené Struggle With Self-Love and Belonging? (15:23) How Has the World Changed in the Last Two Decades? (16:09) Is Power Driven by Fear? (19:38) Four Types of Power: How to Be Successful as a Leader (22:40) Systems Theory (26:35) The Role of AI and Social Media in Shaping Society (34:26) Wisdom From Psychology and Life Experience (41:12) What Type of Connection Should People Be Looking For? (44:21) Belonging vs. Standing Alone (47:30) Making a Divisive Podcast (53:54) Pros and Cons of Curiosity (54:37) Responsibility of a Platform to Assess Guest Credibility (1:03:21) Ads (1:04:18) Importance of Vulnerability (1:09:17) Managing Fear of Vulnerability (1:18:23) Overcoming Negative Traits (1:20:53) Improving Self-Esteem (1:25:30) Four Steps to Courage (1:27:31) Building Trust With the Marble Jar Theory (1:32:34) Leaders' Misconceptions of Trust (1:34:52) Cheating (1:35:50) Ads (1:37:58) Relationship Advice (1:41:29) Losing Your Mother to Dementia (1:45:14) How Did You Deal With Grief? (1:48:27) What Are You Optimizing for Right Now? Follow Brené: Website - https://bit.ly/47rISeb LinkedIn - https://bit.ly/3Jq4T5i Instagram - https://bit.ly/49rCLt0 You can purchase Brené’s book ‘Strong Ground’, here: https://amzn.to/48W2iKm You can listen to Dare to Lead podcast here: http://bit.ly/3WwlN56 Independent Research: https://stevenbartlett.com/wp-content/uploads/2025/11/DOAC-Brene-Brown-Independent-Research-further-reading.pdf The Diary Of A CEO: ◼️Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ◼️Be the first to hear about Steven's new book - https://bit.ly/jfdi-doac ◼️Shop the 1% Diary - https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt ◼️The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Third Edition) - https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb ◼️Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt ◼️Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Shopify - https://shopify.com/bartlett Pipedrive - http://pipedrive.com/CEO Vanta - https://vanta.com/steven [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=jroF3PH-PTs)

[0:00] Brené Brown: 阻碍我们在生活与工作中勇敢前行的，从来不是恐惧本身，而是我们在恐惧时为了自我保护而抓取的“盔甲”。 [7:10] Brené Brown: Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder. [7:10] Brené Brown: 史蒂夫对你的喜爱与接纳，远比你自己对自己的喜爱要多得多；面对这样的爱，对你而言一定痛苦极了。 [15:23] Brené Brown: 任何伟大的前进之前，必然会经历一场倒退。 [34:26] Brené Brown: 过水闸需要多久就是多久，如果强行加速，船只就有倾覆翻船的危险。 [38:20] Emmanuel Acho: 在无法看清全场的情况下阅读比赛，并且足够信任团队，即便看不见所有细节也敢于果断采取行动。 [44:21] Brené Brown: 如果你首先不属于你自己，你就无法真正属于任何事物或任何群体。 [47:30] Brené Brown: 如果你没有同时遭到极左和极右两端的恶毒威胁，说明你根本没有把本职工作做好。 [64:18] Brené Brown: 没有脆弱，就根本不存在勇气。 [78:23] Brené Brown: 过去为了讨好别人，我最先背叛的是自己；而现在，我绝不再背叛自己。 [94:07] Steven Bartlett: 我最信任那些愿意在公开场合说出违背自身短期利益之言的人。 [105:14] Brené Brown: 我宁愿做健身房里最老的女人，也不愿做养老院生活协助区里最年轻的女人。 [108:27] Brené Brown: 力量与寿命——在心智、身体、精神和情感四个维度上的全面强大与长久。

[64:18] Special Forces soldier: There is no courage without vulnerability. [64:18] Brené Brown: Courage is the willingness to show up and be all in when you cannot predict the outcome. [64:18] Brené Brown: Courage is saying 'I love you' first. [67:00] Young woman: I think you're awesome... and I think we should date other people [67:00] Young man: Fuck Brené Brown, fuck Brené Brown [67:00] Young man: I told her I loved her... and she told me I was awesome. [68:36] Male student: Oh, no... I don't want to be that dude. I was daring greatly. [85:52] Brené Brown: One of the first casualties of failure or disappointment or setback is we lose our ability to trust ourselves. [87:31] Brené Brown: Trust is built slowly over time, a marble at a time. And that's how we teach trust to the most senior leaders in Fortune 100 companies. [92:34] Brené Brown: There's one that has a more ragged edge of grief and distress than even cheating, which is just slowly disengaging. Emotionally disengaging. [97:58] Brené Brown: 38 years together is not just like the slow roll movie of a life and a family... we've buried parents, we've gone through illnesses... we've gone through different seasons in our own lives where we were not synced at all. It's really, really hard.

[0:00] You are the single most requested guest. [0:03] And let me tell you, this has not been [0:05] easy cuz we went to some hard places, [0:07] but I don't think we'll ever talk about [0:09] anything more important than this cuz [0:11] it's not fear that gets in the way of us [0:13] being brave with our lives and our work. [0:15] [music] It's the armor that we reach for [0:17] to self-protect when we're afraid and [0:19] how [music] that armor moves us away [0:21] from love, connection, and our values. [0:24] And [music] the hardest work is being [0:26] aware of what is my armor when I'm [0:28] afraid. Is that automatic? Oh, no, it's [0:31] a training. So, let's start with that, [0:32] then. Brené Brown is an icon whose [0:34] world-leading research in shame, [0:36] vulnerability, and connection [0:38] >> has inspired [music] companies like [0:39] Pixar, Google, and the US Special Forces [0:41] >> to build stronger leaders and help the [0:43] everyday person unlock their full [0:45] potential. [0:46] Ready? Is vulnerability important? [0:49] >> It is if we want to be brave with our [0:50] lives, but we were raised to believe [0:52] that vulnerability is weakness. [0:53] >> [music] [0:53] >> Like in my family, we were allowed [0:55] anger, but sad was not an option. You [0:57] needed to be tough. So, when I get [0:59] scared, when I [music] feel anxious, [1:01] disappointed, I'm just angry. And so, [1:03] when you're raised without [1:04] vulnerability, it'll put you in [1:05] jeopardy. Like you want to know what [1:07] vulnerability is? Joy. Joy is so [1:10] vulnerable [music] that people choose to [1:12] live disappointed rather than to get [1:14] excited about something and risk getting [1:16] sucker punched by disappointment. Like [1:18] there is no courage without [1:19] vulnerability because courage is the [1:21] willingness to show up and be all in [1:23] when you cannot predict the outcome. [1:25] Wow, I've never thought about that [1:26] before. But you can develop skills. Like [1:29] it's skills, that's courage? [1:30] >> Yes. We've taken 165,000 [1:33] people through this work. That included [1:35] how to build trust. [1:36] >> And I've heard about your marble jar [1:38] theory. Could you explain to me what [1:40] your marble jar You look at how excited [1:41] you are. I know. [1:43] So, this is how we teach trust to the [1:45] most senior leaders in Fortune [music] [1:47] 100 companies. It's awesome. [1:50] I see messages all the time in the [1:52] comment section that some of you didn't [1:54] realize you didn't subscribe. So, if you [1:55] could do me a favor and double-check if [1:57] you're a subscriber to this channel, [1:58] that would be tremendously appreciated. [2:00] It is the simple, it's the free thing [2:02] that anybody that watches this show [2:03] frequently can do to help us here to [2:05] keep everything going in this show in [2:06] the trajectory it's on. So, please do [2:08] double-check if you subscribed and uh [2:10] thank you so much because in a strange [2:12] way you are you're part of our history [2:14] and you're on this journey with us and I [2:15] appreciate you for that. So, yeah, thank [2:17] you. [2:18] >> [music] [2:20] [singing] [2:21] >> Brené. [2:24] In order to um understand all the work [2:25] that you have done and the perspective [2:27] that you have on the world and also who [2:28] you are as a anomaly in many respects, I [2:31] think it's probably important that I [2:32] understand your earliest context. [2:34] Where you've come from, what shaped you. [2:36] I'm stuck on a [2:37] Am I a Am I an anomaly? I think of [2:40] course you're an anomaly. [2:41] Of course you're an anomaly. It that [2:43] that should be of no surprise to you. [2:45] I mean, if you look at your outcomes, [2:46] your outcomes are anomalous. [2:48] So, one would assume that there's some [2:49] form [2:50] >> [snorts] [2:51] >> something that made you an anomaly. [2:54] I would say that [2:58] I'm a fifth-generation Texan. Mhm. [3:01] I [3:03] came from a fair amount of [3:06] dysfunction. [3:08] Parents doing the best they could [3:11] with what they knew. [3:13] Both coming from really, really, really [3:16] tough upbringings that included, you [3:19] know, [3:20] poverty, [3:21] addiction. And so, probably a lot of the [3:24] stereotypes you would think about [3:25] fifth-generation Texan, tough, don't [3:28] cry, we were allowed a very small [3:31] continuum of emotions were approval, you [3:34] know, were approved, which were pissed [3:36] off [3:37] or okay. Like anger was okay, but no, [3:40] you know, couldn't be sad, really. Or [3:42] vulnerability was not a thing. [3:44] Vulnerability was weakness and scary and [3:46] put you in jeopardy. [3:48] I felt like a real outsider at home and [3:51] in school. [3:52] But I was really good at reading people, [3:55] reading situations. I think my I I think [3:58] a therapist somewhere along the way said [4:00] Yes, that's hypervigilance. Mhm. You're [4:02] hypervigilant. [4:04] You know, I can see everything around me [4:05] and everything that's going on. I can [4:06] connect things very quickly that other [4:08] people don't see. [4:10] And there was laughter [4:11] and there was love, [4:15] but there was a [4:16] ton of unpredictability. [4:19] I was going to say, isn't that typically [4:21] what creates hypervigilance is some kind [4:22] of [4:24] need to be that aware when you're young? [4:27] Yeah. [4:28] Yeah, I mean, I think yes. [4:30] Being fun-loving [4:32] was very valued in my family and being [4:34] tough. These were the values. These are [4:37] These are on the parental scorecard. [4:40] Mhm. This is what got you an A. If [4:42] you're fun, [4:44] easy, [4:45] you can, you know, shoot straight, spit [4:47] far, fish well, [4:49] like really, drive fast. And so, those [4:52] things were very valued. [4:54] Athleticism was very valued. [4:57] Um [5:05] But those fun things could turn really [5:09] hard very quickly. [5:11] There was a big pause there. 4-second [5:13] pause as you [5:13] >> Yeah, I could just picture it. Like it's [5:15] fun until [5:17] it's fun until you've got a parent [5:19] ejected from a game [5:21] for being so hard. [5:23] And that was your father? [5:24] >> Yeah. How he is really hard, then, if he [5:26] was ejected from a game. Oh, yeah. [5:28] Yeah, yeah. [5:30] There's a photo I saw of you and your [5:31] siblings where you're clutching your [5:33] siblings. [5:34] And I think you referred to it as you [5:36] could see there was a certain fear in [5:37] your eyes. Do you Do you know the photo [5:38] I'm referring to? Am I on a couch? [5:41] You're on a couch, is that [5:41] >> Like a yellow velour couch like from the [5:44] '70s? [5:44] >> Yes. Yeah. [5:46] I think about that picture. I like that [5:48] picture, but there is definitely I [5:50] definitely had a protector role as the [5:52] oldest. I mean, code name Sister [5:54] Superior. It was jokingly, but it wasn't [5:56] joking. Like if things got hard between [5:59] my parents and they would get involved [6:00] till fights, I would go get all my [6:03] siblings, put them in my room. [6:05] I'd go downstairs and handle it, you [6:06] know, like I was definitely the [6:07] protector. Physically volatile fights? [6:10] Um on occasion, but more emotionally [6:13] volatile. Screaming and shouting? [6:15] >> yeah. Same with my parents. Yeah, just [6:18] loud. As a background in my whole house [6:20] for my whole childhood was just [6:21] screaming. [6:23] There was a Yeah, we had a lot of [6:24] screaming and there's a certain Like if [6:26] you grew up with screaming, hearing [6:28] screaming through a wall, [6:30] Mhm. [6:31] you [clears throat] know that sound. [6:32] >> Mhm. Do you know that sound? [6:33] >> Mhm, of course, yeah. Oh my god, it's my [6:34] whole childhood. Yeah. [6:36] >> Seven nights a week of screaming. Yeah. [6:37] And so, yeah, I'm sorry because I don't [6:40] like to hear that about your childhood [6:42] and I don't like to know that about my [6:43] childhood, but there was a lot of [6:44] screaming. And so, I think [6:48] hypervigilant, [6:52] protective, [6:54] responsible, [6:56] with a dose of [7:00] be very [ __ ] careful [7:03] because [7:05] I will protect my siblings. [7:10] And and how did that change your model [7:11] of love as a young person? It must have [7:13] been cuz I mean, I obviously feel the [7:15] same way about about my situation and um [7:17] I think the lesson I learned was that [7:19] love was like a prison cuz it was my mom [7:20] doing the shouting and my dad was the [7:22] prisoner and he wouldn't respond. [7:24] So, this you got a woman shouting at him [7:26] for 6, 7 hours a day and him sat there [7:28] like he's a like [7:29] inanimate object looking at the screen. [7:32] And I remember thinking, "Oh, okay. So, [7:33] if I get in a relationship when I'm [7:35] older, then I'm going to be a prisoner [7:37] to a woman. Okay." [7:39] Doesn't sound Doesn't sound appealing. [7:41] And if he moved to a different room, [7:42] she'd follow him. So, [7:45] I avoided relationships like the [ __ ] [7:46] plague. [7:49] I did well until about 27. [7:50] >> [clears throat] [7:51] >> And then what? [7:53] And then someone got over the wall and [7:55] corrected to some of the evidence. [7:57] They got over the wall? [7:59] >> over the wall somehow. [8:00] Yeah, Steve got over the wall. Damn it. [8:03] Well, that's your part of not me, just [8:04] for context. [8:05] >> No, not Yeah, NOT YOU. [8:06] >> [laughter] [8:07] >> ALTHOUGH YOU'RE DOING A HELL OF A JOB [8:09] RIGHT NOW. Um you're like you've crossed [8:11] the piranha-filled moat that I like. Um [8:14] but the drawbridge is like I'm see I'm [8:16] just see I'm going to see. My Steve My [8:18] Steve definitely [8:21] definitely got over the wall. [8:24] Um but it was like game game recognizes [8:26] game. He had a wall. Oh, okay. [8:28] >> Yeah. And so, we had long conversations [8:30] about our walls and and slowly through [8:32] those conversations, we just [8:35] those walls crumbled with each other and [8:37] we've been together now for 38 years. [8:39] >> Wow. Yeah. [8:40] Um hardest thing I've ever done in my [8:42] life. [8:44] Bar none, dude. Nothing has been harder. [8:48] When I started dating Steve, [8:50] well, when we got married, 6 months [8:53] after we got married. This is, you know, [8:54] you you said for you love was going to [8:57] be being a prisoner. Mhm. [8:59] And having to just shut down [9:02] to survive. [9:02] >> Mhm. Right? [9:04] >> Run away. Don't confront it. No [9:05] conversations, no fights. [9:06] >> No. No. [9:08] Um for me, 6 months after we were [9:10] married, I went to go see a therapist [9:12] and I said, "I cannot do this. I've got [9:14] to get out of this marriage." And we had [9:16] dated off and on for 7 years before we [9:17] got married. And I said, "I got to get [9:19] out." [9:20] And she said, "I could The This is hard. [9:24] I I could see how this is not working." [9:26] And I was like [9:28] I had a twinge of defensiveness about [9:30] Steve and I said, "What do you mean?" [9:32] And she said, [9:35] "He likes you so much more [9:38] than you like you. It must be terrible." [9:42] I was like, "Fuck you, MAN. YOU'RE [9:43] FIRED." [9:44] >> [laughter] [9:46] >> I WAS I WAS SO [9:49] I I thought, "What?" [9:51] That's what I do. So, if you I'm going [9:53] to give you one of my tells. [9:54] If I do a really high-pitched "What?" [9:57] That means [9:59] I'm That means I'm looking for my purse [10:01] and I'm get I know where the door is. Um [10:04] I I I I just kept thinking, "What do [10:06] What do you mean?" He said, "It's got [10:07] It's got to be very comf- uncomfortable [10:09] to be with someone who sees you and [10:11] really knows you and loves you so much [10:15] when you have not found a way to see you [10:17] and love you so much. [10:19] It's got to be disconcerting." [10:22] What an [ __ ] man. Like, wow. And it [10:25] was true. I had to get to this point [10:26] where I was like, I Maybe I should like [10:28] me as much as he likes me and then make [10:31] a better decision about whether this is [10:32] going to work or not. [10:34] When you grow up [10:37] and pissed off or shut down are your two [10:39] emotional opportunities. Like, that you [10:42] know, in Atlas of the Heart, I write [10:44] about 87 emotions that I think are [10:47] important to understand because the [10:50] limits of our language are the limits of [10:52] our world. [10:54] When you have two buckets, [10:58] then everything must go in those. And in [11:00] fact, in our research over the last 15 [11:02] years, we found the average person [11:05] can accurately identify and name three [11:08] emotions: happy, sad, pissed off. Mhm. [11:12] >> [clears throat] [11:13] >> And so, in my family, sad was not [11:17] an option. That was weakness. [11:19] So, you could be pissed or okay. [11:23] So, when I get scared, [11:26] when I feel grief, [11:28] when I'm anxious, when I feel [11:30] disappointment, when I feel anguish, [11:34] I'm just angry. [11:36] There's two sort of outstanding question [11:38] marks in my head, and they might be the [11:39] same answer, but it's You said earlier [11:41] on that you didn't fit in at school or [11:43] at home, and I didn't understand why you [11:45] didn't fit in at school or at at home. [11:47] And then the other thing that's sort of [11:48] a question mark in my head is the [11:49] therapist said to you that you well, [11:51] asserted that you didn't like yourself [11:52] as much as he liked you, and I wasn't [11:54] clear on what made you not like [11:55] yourself. [11:57] I wanted out of where I was raised. I [12:00] wanted to leave everything I knew. [12:03] And so, I always felt like an outsider. [12:06] I didn't [12:09] I didn't want to do I mean, I wasn't [12:11] popular. [12:13] I wasn't dating a quarterback. That was [12:15] a dream that my my parents and their [12:18] parents and their parents, you know, you [12:21] were you were a Bear Cadet and you dated [12:23] a quarterback. [12:24] And you got a farm. So, at [12:27] I felt not cute, not popular, [12:31] not understood. [12:34] And then at home, [12:38] I wasn't easygoing. [12:42] I was ang- I was anxious [12:45] and and always ready. [12:48] And the point about self-esteem, which [12:50] the therapist would have highlighted [12:51] about not liking oneself as much as [12:53] Steve liked you, where did that come [12:55] from? Or is that related in some way? [12:57] Oh, cuz my parents parented with a very [12:59] big a heaping dose of shame. [13:02] Oh, okay. So, if you accomplish [13:04] something or you don't accomplish [13:06] something, you're made to feel bad about [13:07] it. [13:08] >> Yeah. [13:09] And a ton of it was about appearance, [13:14] being fun, appearance? Yeah. [13:17] Yeah, like, you know, [13:19] big blonde hair with hot rollers, the [13:21] higher the hair, the closer to God. You [13:24] needed to be tough and strong and throw [13:27] on a baseball cap and get somewhere [13:29] really quick, low maintenance, [13:32] and you needed to be a beauty pageant [13:34] queen. [13:35] Do you remember them ever [13:37] being critical of your appearance in a [13:38] way that has stayed with you? [13:41] Oh my god, yes. [13:44] I mean, I think not just them. I mean, [13:46] like, I think [13:49] having young girls and young women [13:53] keeping them [13:55] from developing threats to their [13:57] self-esteem [14:00] is not just a parental thing. It's like [14:01] it's It's like asking them not to [14:02] breathe because the air is poison. Like, [14:04] it's like every message from everywhere, [14:07] you know, the fashion magazines, you'd [14:09] read them and you'd think, [14:10] "Wow, [14:12] I don't I don't look like this. How am I [14:15] going to look like this?" You know, and [14:17] you'd lather yourself up with baby oil [14:19] and you put lemon juice in your hair, [14:21] you put tin foil under your chin, get as [14:23] much skin cancer as you could cuz we [14:24] didn't know, you know, like, you you'd [14:27] We all wore jeans that you had to put on [14:30] with pliers with for the zipper cuz they [14:32] were so tight. Appearance mattered. This [14:36] is Texas, baby. [14:38] You go off to university eventually, and [14:40] not a straight line, but eventually you [14:41] get into university. Not a straight [14:42] line. Mhm. That's the sweetest thing [14:45] you've said to me. [14:46] Um [14:47] I graduated from college when I was 29. [14:50] Well, so you become a research professor [14:53] in 2001. [14:55] >> [clears throat] [14:55] >> And you've been a research professor and [14:58] many more things um ever since then. You [15:00] get your PhD in social work at the [15:02] University of Houston, Texas [15:04] between '96 and 2002. And really for the [15:08] last couple of decades, you've focused [15:10] on research, understanding people. [15:12] Obviously, there's so many more strings [15:14] to your bow in terms of like media and [15:15] podcasting and authorship. But over [15:18] those since 2001, we're in 2025 now, [15:21] just over two decades. [15:23] My first question is um [15:25] how has your perspective on How has the [15:28] world changed in those last two decades [15:29] in your view? [15:31] Unions would say before any [15:35] great progression, [15:37] there is a regression. [15:40] And I think [15:42] that [15:44] when you look at various admin- I know [15:46] you have a very global audience. When [15:47] you look at administrations, [15:49] political administrations across the [15:50] world, and you look at [15:54] how power is being used right now, [15:59] it will tell you a lot about what [16:01] they're afraid of. [16:02] Mhm. [16:07] What What is that face? We're going to [16:08] have to pause it. [16:09] >> I was thinking about a conversation I [16:10] had recently with my my best friends. It [16:11] must have been this weekend. Yeah, it [16:13] was this weekend cuz it was my friend's [16:14] birthday in Manchester, the UK, so we [16:16] flew in. [16:17] Um and we had a conversation about how [16:20] the leading political narrative at the [16:21] moment, this might be adjacent to what [16:23] you were saying, but it's the way I [16:23] interpreted it. The leading political [16:25] narrative at the moment that seems to be [16:26] getting people elected is if you say [16:30] those people with that skin color are [16:32] the reason for the pain and anguish in [16:33] your life, it's actually the people [16:35] below you that are coming over the [16:37] border or crossing the the English [16:39] Channel on dinghies that are ruining [16:41] your life, and it seems to be like a [16:43] really effective narrative to 100%. [16:46] empower both in the US and the UK. Like, [16:48] the central narrative that is swaying [16:50] elections it seems at the moment in the [16:51] UK and the US is [16:52] those brown people on that boat or [16:54] coming over the border are the reason [16:56] for the pain in your life, [16:57] and it seems to work, and that seems to [16:59] be the thing getting power. So, that's [17:00] kind of what ran through my head when I [17:01] heard this idea of like power and what [17:03] you're scared of. I actually think I [17:05] inverted it to if I can tell you what to [17:07] be scared of or find the thing you might [17:09] be scared of or whatever, then I get [17:10] power. But maybe it goes the other way, [17:12] too. [17:13] I don't think we'll ever talk about [17:15] anything more important than this, to be [17:16] honest with you. That's why I thought [17:18] your response was so interesting cuz you [17:22] you you may if I was going to like do [17:24] the text box above your face, Mhm. [17:27] it would have said, "Well, holy [ __ ] [17:29] That's interesting." Because [17:32] we when you use power, especially power [17:34] over, cuz there's multiple kinds of [17:35] power. There's power with and to [17:38] and power within. [17:40] So, people that use power with and to [17:42] and power within work from a belief [17:44] system that's completely different. [17:47] We believe that power is infinite and [17:49] can grow when shared. [17:51] People who use power over [17:53] work from a belief system that power is [17:55] finite, like pizza, and if I give you [17:58] any, I have a deficit. [18:00] So, it's got to be hoarded and protected [18:02] and not shared. [18:03] Power over [18:05] is really important to understand [18:07] because when people are using power [18:09] over, they're definitely letting you [18:10] know what they're afraid of because [18:12] that's what they're focused on. [18:14] And they're tapping into, and I think [18:16] this is absolutely true, [18:19] if you give people [18:22] someone to dislike [18:25] and blame for their pain, [18:28] and they look different than the people [18:29] who are voting, you [clears throat] will [18:31] win 100 times out of 100. [18:34] If you say, "I see your pain. I can tell [18:37] you exactly the source of it, and I can [18:39] fix this for you. [18:41] And [clears throat] the source of it is [18:42] going to be easy to see. You're not [18:44] going to see yourself in them." [18:46] Mhm. [18:48] So, that narrative that you were talking [18:49] about, it is a full circle. People in [18:52] power [18:54] use power to address issues that they're [18:56] afraid of. [18:57] They gain power by leveraging fear and [19:00] giving people an enemy. [19:02] That's how this works. [19:04] It works like this I mean, I spend 95% [19:06] of my time in organizations [19:09] working with C-suite leaders and senior [19:11] leaders. This This is how it works in [19:13] organizations, how it works in [19:15] political, you know, how it works in [19:17] faith communities. This is how power [19:18] works in general. So, power over is a [19:21] very specific kind of power, [19:23] and it's especially dangerous because in [19:25] order to maintain it, [19:28] you have to engage in periodic bouts of [19:31] cruelty towards vulnerable populations. [19:34] You have to remind people what you're [19:36] capable of. [19:38] So, there's four types of power you you [19:40] you speak about in um Damn, you [19:42] [clears throat] have that in your notes? [19:43] >> in Strong Ground. Yes. [19:46] Why are you surprised? I don't know. [19:49] It's It's four types of power and [19:50] leadership you speak about. There's the [19:51] power over, which is controlling or [19:52] exploiting and there's power with [19:53] finding common ground and building [19:55] collective strength, power to which is [19:57] giving others agency and recognizing [19:58] their potential, and power within which [20:00] is honoring differences and self-worth. [20:05] So, as a leader of a business, if I were [20:06] to be successful, [20:08] are you telling me that I need to stay [20:10] away from power over and adopt another [20:13] power within this list of four? [20:16] Yeah, I think [20:18] what we've seen be very successful over [20:21] time is power with, power to, and power [20:24] within. [20:25] So, [20:27] collaborative power, co-creation power, [20:31] self-awareness, [20:33] metacognition, knowing yourself, knowing [20:35] how you think and learn. So, power with [20:37] and power to. Power over is [20:41] excruciatingly difficult to maintain. [20:45] We're not neurobiologically [20:47] hardwired [20:49] to stay in fear for very long. [20:52] So, [20:54] if I work for you if I work for you, [20:58] and you're using power over to lead me, [21:01] you're threatening me with my job, [21:03] you're threatening me with consequences, [21:04] you're threatening me with demotion, [21:07] one of two things is going to happen for [21:08] me neurobiologically. I am either going [21:12] to [21:14] just become numb to it. It's not It's [21:17] not going to be able to You're not going [21:18] to maintain I can't maintain that [21:20] constant level of fear. It's just too [21:22] demanding. [21:23] >> [snorts] [21:23] >> Just physically demanding. [21:26] Or I might get hyper [21:29] normalized. I might just like this is [21:31] This is what I work in. This is like [21:32] crazy. This is it, you know? But every [21:34] now and then you're going to have to do [21:36] something that demonstrates to me how [21:40] chaotic and cruel you can actually be. [21:42] Like you're going to have to engage in [21:44] periodic acts of cruelty to remind me [21:47] that the fear is real and to put me back [21:49] in it. [21:50] And so, one of the things you're seeing [21:52] right now, I mean like we in in the US, [21:56] the deportation and immigration issues. [22:00] This is not a president that has, you [22:03] know, tightened his belt on immigration [22:06] more than other previous presidents. But [22:08] we've never seen masked people [22:11] grabbing people off the street while [22:13] children hold on to their legs [22:15] screaming, "Mom, mom, mom." We've We've [22:17] never seen that before, right? But we've [22:19] had other presidents [22:22] probably exceed [22:25] the deportation numbers that we're [22:26] seeing. [22:27] But we've never seen that level of [22:29] cruelty in display. [22:31] That is a real display of cruelty as a [22:35] reminder of who who holds power and who [22:38] does not. [22:40] It also makes me think of relationships [22:41] when you're talking about [22:43] you know, how people are controlled with [22:45] power over. A lot of people talk about [22:47] like sort of narcissistic relationships [22:48] or abusive relationships where [22:51] they don't feel like they can leave or [22:53] you know, they don't leave and they end [22:55] up becoming acclimatized to the [22:57] treatment. [22:58] I'm a big systems theory I'm a systems [23:00] theory person. I think in systems theory [23:02] I was trained in systems theory. I think [23:04] if you don't understand systems systems [23:06] theory, at least if you're leading an [23:08] organization right now, you're going to [23:09] fall behind because [23:13] the complexity inside and outside of [23:15] organizations is such that we need a [23:17] framework to understand how all these [23:21] individual systems are bumping up [23:22] against each other. Like you you [23:24] probably bump up against [23:27] a hundred systems a day, right? [23:28] >> Yeah. And so, what I would imagine, the [23:32] story I would make up about your [23:33] success, [23:36] cuz this is true of any systems theory, [23:37] is in order for systems to thrive and [23:39] grow, [23:41] they have to keep permeable boundaries. [23:44] Meaning they have to allow feedback to [23:47] flow in and out from other systems. Mhm. [23:50] >> [clears throat] [23:50] >> To be aware. So, I'm just going to give [23:53] you a very good example. I'm very [23:54] excited about the female [23:56] the experts you had on Mhm. [23:59] around menopause, [24:02] women's life. I mean, I'm so excited [24:03] about that. Mhm. Like just to be honest [24:05] with you, like Mary Claire is my doctor. [24:07] Oh, really? Yeah, yeah, yeah. Dr. Haver. [24:09] So, [24:10] um [24:13] what is interesting is the systems that [24:15] just that podcast bumps up against. [24:20] You know, and the systems that would be [24:22] sending feedback that hey, this is not [24:24] for me. I'm not clicking on this. [24:26] I I've shared that first one with a [24:28] hundred people. [24:29] >> [laughter] [24:30] >> You know, because there's a reality to [24:33] our lives that is uncomfortable for [24:35] people. [24:36] But those are your partners and your [24:37] moms and your, you know, and your bosses [24:41] and it's real. And I can guarantee you [24:43] this was happening with the dudes. [24:46] Yeah. Like it'd be a gazillion dollar [24:50] whatever is over a trillion, gazillion. [24:52] I don't know. Um but just thinking about [24:54] that one podcast and the systems that [24:56] you're touching. Health, women's issues, [25:00] um family systems are affected. Like [25:03] that podcast hits 20 systems that I can [25:05] think of in my head right now. [25:06] >> Mhm. [25:07] >> [clears throat] [25:07] >> The divorce rates of people of women in [25:09] their 50s and 60s. Mhm. I mean, right? [25:11] Yes or no? [25:12] >> Yeah, 100% yeah. Right. So, a healthy [25:15] system has permeable boundaries, meaning [25:17] feedback is flowing in and out all the [25:19] time. [25:20] What happens when the world gets complex [25:24] is we start not wanting the feedback. [25:26] The complexity is too big. So, we start [25:29] shutting down those permeable [25:30] boundaries. Well, what happens to a [25:32] system where the boundaries are no [25:34] longer permeable? It atrophies. [25:37] And in the in the process of atrophying, [25:40] the system becomes self-referencing. Are [25:42] we good? We're great. [25:44] Are we right? We're right. Are we on [25:46] target? We're on target. Because the [25:49] boundaries of the system is are no [25:51] longer craving outside feedback even [25:53] when it's tough. And in businesses [25:55] today, [25:57] the geopolitical realities, [25:59] the market changes, AI, I mean, it's [26:04] crazy. Mhm. And so, [26:07] our [26:09] predisposition [26:11] to shut down uncertainty and complexity [26:14] is the biggest threat to the systems in [26:16] which we work and live. [26:19] The self-protect, close the wall, put up [26:22] the drawbridge, fill the moat with [26:24] piranhas. [26:26] We just don't have that luxury. We've [26:28] got to keep the the boundaries [26:29] permeable. We've got to keep learning, [26:31] guessing, unlearning, relearning. One of [26:34] the added complexities is the rise of [26:37] algorithms. And And actually, when I [26:38] think about algorithms that are powered [26:41] by AI, they're going to be even better [26:42] at knowing what you want to see so that [26:44] you spend time so that you consume more [26:46] adverts, which means [26:48] probably the best thing to show me is [26:49] either something really fearful or to to [26:51] confirm what I already believe. [26:53] >> 100%. An algorithm that was doing the [26:54] opposite probably wouldn't be an [26:55] enjoyable experience for the average [26:57] human brain. It would cause too much [26:58] dissonance, too much discomfort. [26:59] >> But great for democracy. Great. Yeah, [27:01] fantastic. But terrible for for running [27:04] a business and selling ads. So, any [27:06] company that takes that approach will go [27:07] bankrupt. This is why TikTok I think [27:09] have been so successful is the algorithm [27:11] is I don't use TikTok. It's I have a [27:13] TikTok account. I don't have the app on [27:15] my phone. But um from what I hear is [27:18] it's so unbelievably addictive. People [27:19] describe it to me and they're like, "Oh [27:21] my god, it's so addictive." But this [27:22] [ __ ] is the devil. Yeah. [27:26] Yeah. [27:28] But it's [27:29] people are driven by incentives, right? [27:31] And you know, your [27:32] your share price is going to tumble and [27:33] you're going to be fired. [27:35] You're going to lose your your status [27:36] and your power if you don't do that. [27:40] I'm playing devil's advocate. Obviously, [27:41] I'm not saying [27:42] >> No, [27:43] I No, I agree. [27:45] What do you think the solution is? [27:48] And what responsibility do [27:51] the bros who run these tech platforms [27:55] have? [27:56] It's complicated. [27:58] Well, I agree. I'm not looking for an [27:59] easy answer. Go ahead. Hit me. Well, and [28:01] I just think it's complicated because [28:04] what what an objective party would say, [28:06] who's just looking at the incentives of [28:08] these groups of people, is if they don't [28:10] do it, [28:11] then China will. So, even with AI now, [28:15] you know what I mean? I'm like I've sat [28:16] with all these experts and I keep [28:18] hitting up against this wall, which is [28:19] okay, if we just banned people in the [28:21] United States from pursuing this super [28:22] intelligence strategy, then Russia and [28:25] China get there first, then the United [28:27] States, unfortunately, are going to end [28:28] up being [28:30] China's French bulldog. [28:32] And actually, I can't refute that. I go, [28:34] "No, you're right." Cuz we would you'd [28:35] have to literally lease the technology [28:37] off them. It will be so powerful and [28:39] give such an economic advantage that you [28:41] will have to lease it off China. So, [28:42] you're like, "Okay, I guess Sam Altman [28:44] does need to crack on." [28:46] Or else [28:48] So, it's complicated. [28:50] >> I mean, this is where I end up every [28:52] time. [28:53] I mean, look what happened with TikTok. [28:54] China made an algorithm. It was [28:56] unbelievably addictive. The United [28:57] States have just had to buy it off them. [29:00] Because they were scared that the data [29:01] was going to be used against the United [29:02] States. It's a prime example. Like China [29:03] were like, "Fuck it, we don't care." [29:05] Yeah, right. [29:05] >> Yeah. [29:06] And they made an unbelievable algorithm [29:08] called TikTok, which just captivated, [29:09] you know, the youth are all just like [29:11] losing their brains. So, [29:12] I don't know. I don't know. It's tough. [29:13] It's rough. [29:14] Spiritual crisis. [29:17] Yeah, I mean, you just laid it out. [29:19] You just laid it out. [29:22] We're emotionally dysregulated. We're [29:24] distrustful of each other. We don't [29:26] trust ourselves very much and we're [29:27] disconnected. I can't give up on people, [29:30] though. I'm not built that way. [29:33] Like I just believe that we are more [29:36] good than greedy. [29:39] You know, I I was in conversation with [29:41] Trevor Noah at an event. [29:43] And I mentioned this term that I I was [29:45] really excited about [29:47] And he challenged me on it. [29:50] And I said, I think what we need is [29:51] cognitive sovereignty. We need to [29:54] wrestle control [29:57] away from the algorithms [29:59] and decide what we consume, what we [30:02] read, how we think, think critically. [30:06] We need [30:08] to think about our attention and our [30:09] focus [30:11] as commodities that people are after. [30:15] >> Because they're after them, right? [30:16] >> Mhm. [30:18] He had an interesting point though. He [30:19] always has interesting points, don't you [30:21] think? [30:21] >> tough to to talk to Trevor because he's [30:23] so he's always got an interesting point. [30:25] >> He's always got an interesting point. [30:27] Damn it. [30:28] Um and he's funny. But he said, "No, we [30:30] need less cognitive sovereignty, Brené." [30:32] And I'm like, "What do you mean?" He [30:33] goes, "Everything's about the for you [30:35] page. Everything's for you. We need [30:37] communal sovereignty." He's like, "You [30:39] know, the whole problem is that your for [30:42] you page is completely sovereign. You [30:45] intellectually and spiritually" I'm I'm [30:47] I'm paraphrasing what he said. I'm sure [30:49] it was like [30:51] funnier and better looking, but [30:53] um [30:55] but [30:56] he he and then then I was trying to [30:58] think about like I guess maybe that's [31:00] not the right term. But let me let me [31:02] tell you what scares me the most. [31:04] I'm in I'm in some weird rooms because [31:06] of the nature of my job. I'm in rooms [31:08] where the people who run these platforms [31:11] and own and you know, that own the CEOs [31:13] of these business and the founders are [31:14] in these rooms. And I hear them talking [31:17] and I hear things that are so misaligned [31:23] that it panics me. So I hear someone [31:25] say, "Hey, you know, tech billionaire, [31:28] what what should my kids study? I'm [31:30] worried for my kids." Well, they should [31:32] study coding, physics, you know, and [31:34] then 5 minutes later as if that answer [31:37] didn't happen, someone will say, [31:39] "To what do you attribute your success? [31:41] I mean, deeply when you think about it." [31:43] And the same person will say, [31:45] "My deep philosophy and the Stoics." [31:49] And so then I'm thinking to myself, [31:50] well, which is it, dude? [31:53] And then I then I start to extrapolate [31:55] from there and wonder [31:57] if there is a thinking class that's [32:00] emerging [32:02] where they're like, "We're going to read [32:03] philosophy [32:05] and we're going to read [32:07] the liberal arts and we're going to [32:08] study history. [32:10] And the rest of you, just keep [32:12] scrolling. Don't worry about the big [32:14] words. [32:15] Well, we'll handle all the big words for [32:16] you." Like it's like when they asked [32:19] Steve Jobs, "Well, your kids must love [32:22] the iPad." [32:24] Steve Jobs said, [32:26] "My kids don't have an iPad." [32:28] And then his biographer who spent time [32:30] with his family said, "He wasn't [32:32] kidding. There's no technology. At [32:34] dinner, they're talking about art and [32:37] history." [32:38] Mhm. The hardest chapter I've ever [32:40] written in my life of any book was the [32:42] chapter on grounded confidence in Strong [32:43] Ground. [32:44] What is the set of skill sets and [32:46] mindsets that I think we're going to [32:48] need to future ready and future proof [32:50] ourselves to be leaders moving forward? [32:53] And I think what was hard about it was [32:55] the complexity of it was probably a [32:57] combination of 30 different mindsets and [32:58] skill sets. [33:01] And when I was done, [33:03] you know, for commercial reasons, [33:05] someone on my team immediately said, [33:06] "Jeez, this is like a if you can train [33:08] people in these things, this is really [33:11] this is like really important." [33:13] And the first thing I thought was [ __ ] [33:15] that, my kids. [33:18] Train train schmain. I get it. It's [33:20] important. Like we'll we'll we'll we'll [33:22] develop some instrumentation, measure [33:23] it. We'll train folks in it. I think [33:25] it's trainable, it's teachable, it's [33:26] measurable. [33:27] But really, I want this for my kids. [33:32] I want my kids to know systems thinking. [33:33] I want my kids to know anticipatory [33:36] thinking, situational awareness, [33:38] temporal awareness. [33:40] I want my kids to have this complex set [33:44] of skills. [33:46] Do I want them to have jobs one day [33:48] where all they're worried about a [33:49] shareholder value? Really, no. [33:51] I want them to own their mind, own their [33:54] intellect, own their attention, and own [33:57] their focus. [33:59] I want them to read. [34:02] I want them to understand [34:04] history. [34:06] I want them to develop pattern [34:07] recognition skills cuz these are the [34:09] skills of the future. I want them to be [34:11] able to hold the tension of nuance and [34:15] paradox [34:16] when everything in their brain is [34:18] saying, "Pick one, pick one, reconcile. [34:20] I'm uncomfortable. Pick one, reconcile. [34:22] I'm uncomfortable." That's neurobiology. [34:26] In those 20 in those 20 years of your 20 [34:28] plus years of your career, what have you [34:30] been exposed to from a 30,000 foot [34:32] perspective? Like what [34:34] what are the the wide range of reference [34:36] points that you draw upon [34:38] to be the person that you are today? And [34:42] you know, cuz you've had you it feels [34:43] like you've got a very wide range of [34:44] references. Clearly, you know, you're [34:46] you're someone that cares a lot about [34:46] history. That comes through in your [34:48] answers, but I'm wondering in your [34:49] career like what are what are the [34:51] experiences that you've had? Have you [34:53] been working directly with patients? Is [34:55] it aca- academic reference points you're [34:57] drawing upon? [34:59] Yeah, um [35:01] no one's ever asked me this, which I've [35:03] been grateful that no one's asked me. Um [35:07] so what a pain in the ass, but um [35:10] because no one's going to like the [35:11] answer. I'm excited about the answer [35:13] now. [35:15] Everything. Like every single thing. [35:19] Um yes, I you know, I love history. Yes, [35:23] I [35:25] read academic papers all the time. Yes, [35:29] I wake up in the morning and I read [35:31] because of the nature of my work, I read [35:32] The Wall Street Journal, The New York [35:33] Times, Bloomberg, The Financial Times. [35:36] Like I yeah, I mean I I I read and a [35:38] lot, but there's a chapter in the book [35:42] that was one of my favorite to write on [35:44] the transitions home from work. [35:47] Mhm. And how how how tough they are. [35:50] And how if you're like me, you've had a [35:52] very frustrated partner look at you more [35:55] than once in your life and say, "Hey, [35:58] I know it was stressful. I don't work [35:59] for you. [36:00] Change gears." Yeah. [36:02] Have you ever had that? [36:03] >> No comment. No comment. [36:05] >> [laughter] [36:06] >> Yeah. [36:07] I use a metaphor [36:09] in that book in this chapter [36:12] of a lock. [36:14] And how did that come to me? [36:16] Because I was reading the book series [36:17] The Rivers of London. [36:19] And in that book series, [36:22] there are two gods of the Thames. [36:25] And the Teddington Lock is where out [36:28] right outside of London in Teddington is [36:30] where custody changes for them. So I [36:33] went to the Teddington Lock cuz I was [36:35] interested. I met the lockmaster [36:39] that runs the lock. [36:41] She gave me a 3-hour lesson that day. We [36:43] let narrowboats through the Thames. [36:46] I learned how lock works and that's the [36:48] metaphor that I use to talk about the [36:51] research on what do we do when we spend [36:54] all day locking in, [36:56] hyperfocused, compartmentalizing, [36:59] getting [ __ ] done. [37:01] And then instead of going home to our [37:03] partner, when we get home, we spend 30 [37:05] minutes in the garage on TikTok cuz we [37:07] can't bear to go in. [37:10] So why do we do that? Because we need a [37:13] lock through period. We need time to go [37:17] into a chamber metaphorically, [37:20] change levels, [37:22] let go of where we were, lower ourselves [37:24] to the rhythm of what we're doing now. [37:26] Cognitively we'd call it cognitive and [37:28] domain shifting. [37:30] And we need time. So I looked at the [37:32] lockmaster at uh Teddington and said, [37:36] "This should just take you a long time. [37:38] Can we get this chamber filled up a [37:39] little bit quicker?" [37:40] And she said, "Locking through takes [37:42] what locking through takes. If you rush [37:44] it, you risk capsizing." [37:48] We get home and then we walk in the back [37:50] door and it's like, "I can't find my [37:51] shin guards. I think I left them on the [37:53] pitch. Where are my goggles, Mom? Oh my [37:55] god, you didn't sign the permission [37:57] slip. I had to sneak into the zoo." You [37:59] know, and you're like, [38:02] "Take me back to work where I'm the boss [38:03] of everything." You [laughter] know. So [38:06] where do I learn those things? Well, [38:08] cognitive and domain shifting come out [38:10] of psychology. [38:12] Gemma, the lockmaster at Teddington, [38:14] there's wisdom everywhere. [38:17] I put it together as your stories and [38:18] metaphors. I mean, another thing in the [38:20] book. I mean, I'm standing on the [38:23] sideline at DKR, the University of Texas [38:27] Longhorn football stadium. Um and I'm [38:29] standing with Emmanuel Acho. [38:31] Do you know Emmanuel? No. Yeah, he's [38:32] great. He played for the Longhorns. He [38:34] played for the NFL. Now he's a writer. [38:36] So I'm standing there and we're watching [38:39] the game and I look at him and I go, [38:41] "How would you define pocket presence?" [38:44] And pocket presence is an American [38:45] football term. So do you know American [38:48] football? Okay. So I'm a quarterback. [38:51] I'm going to get the ball and I have to [38:52] throw the ball or run the ball or hand [38:54] off the ball to get the ball down the [38:55] pitch, down the field, right? [38:57] >> Mhm. [38:57] >> [clears throat] [38:57] >> And when when the ball is snapped and [39:00] the ball is put into motion, [39:02] there's about 1,200 lb of really angry [39:06] people trying to drive me into the [39:09] ground. [39:10] The people that are protecting me from [39:12] those defensive guys are called my [39:15] offensive line. Mhm. And the way they [39:17] [clears throat] do it is they form a [39:18] pocket around the quarterback. [39:21] And the quarterback uses that time to [39:24] decide where am I going to throw the [39:25] ball? Am I going to run the ball? And [39:27] pocket presence is the ability of a [39:30] quarterback to use the on average 2.8 to [39:34] 3 seconds he has to read the field, [39:38] understand where the defenders are, and [39:39] make a decision. [39:41] And so when I asked Emmanuel Acho, "How [39:43] would you define pocket presence?" He [39:45] said, [39:47] and I want you to think about this in [39:48] terms of your business. [39:50] The ability to read the field without [39:53] seeing all of it. [39:55] And trusting your team well enough [39:58] to make a move [40:00] even though you can't see everything. [40:03] Mhm. [40:04] What are the skill sets you need right [40:06] there? One, temporal awareness. [40:08] You got to know how much time you have [40:09] to get rid of that ball and get it down [40:10] the field. They they say Tom Brady, who [40:13] played for the Patriots, is any of this [40:14] ringing a bell? [40:15] >> Yeah, I know who you mean. Great. Tom [40:16] Brady. [40:17] They said his pocket presence was so [40:19] good, he could tell where his offensive [40:21] linemen were by the vibrations through [40:24] his his cleats on the field. [40:27] So, temporal awareness, situational [40:30] awareness, what's going on, anticipatory [40:32] awareness. [40:34] Think about a great football player. [40:37] Right? Think about Masala. [40:39] You don't kick the ball to where the [40:41] striker is. You kick the ball to where [40:43] the striker's going to be. Mhm. So, [40:45] anticipatory and situational awareness, [40:47] right? [40:47] >> Mhm. [40:48] Pattern recognition. [40:50] Have I been in this situation before? Do [40:51] I know how to, you know, [40:53] where is the goalie in the cage? Where [40:54] are they standing right now? Like and so [40:57] I'll take my inspiration from sports all [40:59] the time, which is why there's so many [41:00] sports metaphors. [41:03] Right? Mhm. [41:04] >> [clears throat] [41:04] >> I think there's not a better sports a [41:06] better metaphor to describe work right [41:07] now than [41:09] American League Football. [41:12] One of the things that um perhaps is is [41:14] throughout your work is this idea of [41:15] connection. I did a mushroom [41:19] I did magic mushrooms with my girlfriend [41:20] a couple of years ago, the first time [41:21] I've ever done it. And um [41:24] the message that came through for me was [41:26] it was about connection. And that word [41:28] has had a fond place in my heart ever [41:30] since. It's been really, really [41:30] important. And we live in a society [41:32] that's more lonely than ever before, [41:33] more disconnected in many ways, as you [41:35] described when you're referencing the [41:36] spiritual crisis that we're living in. [41:39] This word connection, what does that [41:40] mean? Does it mean on an individual [41:42] basis? Does it mean me having friends [41:44] and relationships? Is that connection? [41:47] Is that the type of connection I should [41:48] be looking for? Or does it need Do I [41:49] need to like Do you think people need to [41:51] ladder up further to [41:53] their city, their town, their world, [41:56] to the community, to something bigger? [41:59] God. [42:01] What What does connection mean in this [42:02] context? [42:02] >> Yes. [42:06] I think the answer to that question is [42:07] yes. We're neuro- neurobiologically [42:10] hardwired to be in connection with other [42:11] people. And in the absence of [42:13] connection, there's always suffering. [42:16] Always suffering in the absence of [42:18] connection. So, I think [42:21] I mean, just how we're built, mirror [42:22] neurons, you know, our ability to sync [42:25] up neurobiologically when we feel [42:27] connected and are hearing each other. [42:29] So, to me, connection is the ability to [42:31] be in a relationship where we can both [42:33] give and receive, where we feel seen, [42:36] heard, believed, valued. [42:39] That is that human connection is really [42:42] important on a micro level, one-on-one [42:44] with other human beings. [42:46] I think a sense of belonging and a sense [42:49] of place, [42:50] and I don't know that that necessarily [42:52] needs to be a location, [42:56] but [42:59] a sense of being a part of something [43:01] bigger than you, [43:02] I think is also important. So, love and [43:04] belonging, [43:06] connection, irreducible needs. [43:12] I I think spirituality I define [43:15] spirituality is being inextricably [43:18] connected to other people by something [43:19] bigger than us. Maybe that's love, maybe [43:21] that's God, [43:23] maybe that's fishing. Like I I you know, [43:25] it's different for other people. For me, [43:27] I'm faith is one of my values and I'm a [43:29] a pretty serious God person. [43:32] Um I'm a pretty deep person of faith. I [43:35] guess I would ask somebody, [43:37] "What is that thing [43:40] that transcends [43:43] difference? [43:45] Political difference, ideological [43:46] difference, race, gender, you know, [43:49] belief systems, class, what is it [43:53] that brings you to a common humanity [43:55] place?" [43:59] Like for me, it's God. That's it's a big [44:00] challenge. [44:01] Cuz like I I try to work from an ethos [44:03] where I try to find God in the face of [44:04] everybody that I meet, even if I want to [44:06] punch you in the throat. I try to like [44:10] Like like that's my thing. In some way, [44:12] I'm connected to you. Mhm. Whether I [44:15] like it or not and whether I like you or [44:16] not. [44:20] And when you talk about belonging, it's [44:21] interesting in your book Braving the [44:22] Wilderness, which I think the question's [44:25] kind of summed up by the subtitle here. [44:26] The quest for true belonging and the [44:28] courage to stand alone. This appears to [44:30] be a dichotomy or a contradiction. Mhm. [44:33] To belong, but also to stand alone. [44:34] >> Mhm. [44:37] Why are both of these important? Why is [44:39] it important to belong? What does that [44:40] mean? And And why is it also important [44:42] to [44:43] stand alone? [44:45] Cuz I don't think you can truly belong [44:48] to anything or any or or any group if [44:51] you don't belong to yourself first. [44:54] True belonging [44:57] requires us to be who we are, [45:01] not to change who we are. That's fitting [45:04] in. Fitting in is the greatest threat to [45:05] belonging. [45:07] Mhm. [45:08] Which takes us both back to our [45:10] childhoods, right? [45:11] >> Mhm. Yeah. Fit in. Fit in. Fit in. Fit [45:15] in. [45:16] The problem is that that chameleon [45:20] kind of skill set [45:24] means that in order to fit in, the first [45:28] person you betray is yourself. We've got [45:30] to be able to stand alone. [45:32] And that's what's happening right now in [45:33] the world. I mean, if I if I look back [45:35] at Braving the Wilderness, [45:36] that was maybe the only prophetic book [45:39] that I think I've ever written. Like [45:41] that Like Like that I don't think I'm [45:42] profit like, but man, did I call what [45:44] was happening in terms of the big sort [45:47] into ideological bunkers, where we are [45:50] going to get to a place where [45:53] I don't even know you, but I'm going to [45:55] call you friend because we hate the same [45:57] people. [46:00] And you over there, [46:02] I actually do love you. [46:04] You're a family member of mine. [46:08] But I'm not, you know, because we don't [46:09] believe in the same things, [46:11] you have no meaning in my life. Like [46:12] it's like we have gotten to the place [46:14] where [46:16] ideological bunkers, [46:19] and those are so dangerous cuz here you [46:21] and I like let's say let's say that we [46:23] have the same belief around immigration. [46:26] Um so we're going to flip this table [46:28] over and we're going to get behind it in [46:29] our ideological bunker and we're going [46:31] to be like, "Yeah, we're right and these [46:34] guys are [ __ ] crazy and [ __ ] y'all." [46:36] You know, and then one day I'm going to [46:38] turn to you and say, "You know, one [46:40] thing I'm wondering about [46:43] is how are we going to solve the problem [46:47] >> [clears throat] [46:47] >> with the folks coming over [46:50] in the dinghies [46:52] from France? Cuz I don't think we're [46:54] going to be able to go without solving [46:56] it [46:57] because we do have an employment issue [46:58] and a housing crisis." And then you go, [47:02] "You're out." [47:05] My My care for you, my connection with [47:07] you, completely dependent [47:10] on you not questioning anything we [47:12] agreed to back here. [47:15] Well, that's counterfeit connection. [47:19] What's real connection? Like I got to [47:21] know what's going on in your mind cuz [47:23] your face is like We got to play poker. [47:25] We got to put that on our agenda. [47:26] >> [laughter] [47:28] >> What are you thinking? I was just [47:29] thinking about being a podcaster and I [47:31] sit here with all types of people. So, I [47:32] had Kamala Harris sat here [47:34] >> Mhm. uh [47:36] 3 or 4 days ago and I'll have someone on [47:39] the right sat here. You know, and then [47:41] I'll have maybe Michelle Obama, then [47:43] I'll have Jordan Peterson, then I'll [47:45] have the opposite of whatever Jordan [47:46] Peterson is. And I was just thinking [47:48] about how um [47:50] how that's also kind of made me feel [47:51] like I don't belong [47:53] because that is quite rare. [47:56] There's probably not a podcaster on [47:57] Earth that has had both Michelle Obama [47:58] and Jordan Peterson. [48:00] No. Yeah. And then Kamala Harris after [48:03] that. Like I didn't manage to scare [48:04] Michelle off. I didn't scare Jordan off. [48:07] And so [48:09] you get you kind of get attacked from [48:10] both sides. Oh, I mean, look, [48:13] if you're not if you're not [48:16] getting threatening [ __ ] [48:19] from the far [48:21] here, the far left or the far right, if [48:23] you're not getting both, you're not [48:24] doing your job. [48:25] >> Amen. Yeah. [48:27] >> Period. But it's tough. Oh God, it is [48:30] heartbreaking. [48:31] >> Yeah. [48:32] It will break your heart and it will [48:35] remind you of why standing alone [48:39] is on the front of that book. Mhm. [48:41] Because what it will do it is it is [48:44] Winnow the right word? It will narrow [48:47] your belonging, your true belonging, [48:50] down to [48:52] a very few people. [48:54] >> I mean, I completely understand how it [48:56] happens that a podcaster like me will [48:59] end up picking a side because there is [49:01] safety in numbers. Well, cuz there's an [49:03] ideological bunker cuz we flipped the [49:04] table over. 100% At any point, you know, [49:07] when the left attacks you, I'm like, [49:08] "Wow, the right looks pretty." When the [49:09] right attacks you, you go, "Oh, the left [49:11] looks pretty." [49:12] Because standing in the in no man's land [49:14] is [49:16] is not the place you want to be. [49:18] I know I'm never going to succeed in [49:20] this. Like I know I'm never going to [49:22] succeed in converting people converting [49:24] people to be nuanced and to not get [49:26] viscerally angry when I have someone on [49:28] the show who's on the right or [49:30] viscerally angry when I have someone on [49:31] the show who's on the left. I'm already [49:32] aware that when the Kamala episode comes [49:34] out, it's just going to be a bunch of [49:34] people that didn't listen and within the [49:35] first 3 minutes, the comment section's [49:37] just going to be [ __ ] you. [49:38] >> Yeah. And I'm like part of me is trying [49:41] to win that war with my audience, where [49:44] they too will just listen. [49:46] And I know that you don't agree with the [49:48] person, but can you just listen? [49:50] Cuz that's what I do, and it's not some [49:51] act I'm putting on. It's not like I walk [49:52] out there and I start but I I'm [49:54] right-wing in my kitchen or left-wing in [49:55] my kitchen. Genuinely, the brain where [49:57] my brain works is oh, I see this this [49:59] good in this individual. [50:01] And then I meet someone else who's on [50:02] the other side and I say oh, there's a [50:03] couple of points of good that I agree [50:04] upon I agree with them on this. [50:06] That's how I am, and it feels so weird. [50:09] Because when you go on the internet, you [50:10] don't find yourself [50:12] being compelled by either side entirely. [50:15] No. [50:16] No, and I think it's really confusing, [50:17] and the only limit I have really is I am [50:20] not probably going to have a [50:21] conversation with you. [50:25] If your beliefs question my humanity. [50:30] Okay. That that's going to be my line. [50:33] That that's going to be that's going to [50:34] be the line for me is going to be [50:39] if you're cruel [50:41] or name-calling Yeah. [50:43] or if your core beliefs about who I am [50:47] Mhm. [50:47] >> [clears throat] [50:48] >> or who other people are are [50:49] dehumanizing. [50:51] I I I can't I can't that I can't do [50:54] because now I've betrayed myself in [50:56] order to make a political point about [50:58] nuance. Yeah. Because that because you [51:00] know [51:01] dehumanization is a really interesting [51:04] and hard thing. [51:06] When you study when you look at the [51:07] research of people who study [51:08] dehumanization [51:10] and you we talked about earlier with the [51:12] with immigrant populations. [51:16] There is a circle of moral inclusion. [51:19] We are not built [51:22] we are not hardwired to hurt each other, [51:24] to kill each other [51:26] assault, rape, beat. [51:31] It's not we're not wired for it [51:32] actually. So, in order [51:35] to do that [51:37] you you've got a person here inside your [51:39] moral inclusion. [51:41] In order to be okay with that, you've [51:43] got to push them outside of moral [51:45] inclusion to be morally excluded from [51:48] somebody you see as human and worthy of [51:51] moral inclusion. And the first step to [51:54] moral exclusion [51:56] moving people out of a safety zone where [51:59] you don't do horrible things to them [52:01] the first way to move people out is [52:04] language. throughout history [52:06] as long as people have lived. So [52:10] you hear people in this administration [52:12] calling a a community of immigrants an [52:15] infestation. [52:18] The same way we would talk about animals [52:19] or rats. [52:21] You know, and so my only limit [52:24] to hard conversation [52:27] is [52:28] if you're operating from an ideology [52:32] where women are dogs [52:34] immigrants are illegals. You know, if [52:37] you're operating from that place of [52:39] moral exclusion [52:42] you are too dangerous for me. [52:46] But other than that, I'd probably be [52:48] willing to have a conversation with [52:49] anyone. But I can understand why people [52:51] pick sides. I tell you what, it is [52:54] lonely. Yeah, that makes sense. Yeah. [52:57] It's nice to hear that. It's really nice [52:58] to hear that that that is um [53:03] Yeah. [53:04] We've talked about it quite a lot, me [53:05] and Jack um who's been producing the [53:08] show since the very beginning. Uh we've [53:10] we've talked a lot about how [53:12] we understand the temptation to pick a [53:13] side. And actually, one of the greatest [53:14] compliments a journalist has ever given [53:16] me [53:16] is they wrote in the article, and this [53:18] wasn't a journalist that liked me, they [53:20] just said um [53:21] we're unable to [53:24] ascertain which political party he is [53:25] part of. [53:27] I thought that was a great compliment [53:28] because [53:29] I mean [53:30] >> it means that [53:32] That's that's a journal that's a [53:33] journalistic ethos. I think they would [53:35] want to pin me down and say he's [ __ ] [53:36] they'd love to say I'm right-wing or [53:38] Yeah. something else. [53:40] But they said um in a not very nice [53:42] piece they'd written about me whatever, [53:43] they said that he [53:44] we're unable to figure out what side [53:46] he's part of. And I think that's a [53:47] compliment because it's it's true and it [53:49] I think it allows me to do my job better [53:50] that I don't have too many [53:51] preconceptions when I meet people. I try [53:53] to meet people for the first time. [53:55] Which I enjoy. I think you're pretty [53:56] good at that cuz you are insatiably [53:58] curious. Mhm. It's it's lovely and [54:01] terrible. [54:02] Why terrible? It's terrible for an [54:03] avoidant. [54:05] I found this out recently. I've known it [54:07] my whole life, but I found it out [54:08] recently cuz I had a conversation with [54:09] someone. If someone's I think if [54:10] someone's uncomfortable with [54:11] vulnerability, then I'm like their [54:13] [ __ ] worst nightmare. [54:13] >> YOU ARE. [54:14] >> [laughter] [54:16] >> WHICH IS INTERESTING CUZ I DON'T EXPECT [54:18] YOU as super vulnerable. Really? [54:21] Uh [54:23] Maybe not. [54:24] >> Carefully optimistic vulnerable. Yeah, [54:26] that's probably Like like you're you're [54:29] cognitively a believer Yeah. [54:31] >> and trying to move the rest of you to [54:33] it. [54:37] You've got the journalistic ethos [54:39] of [54:42] equal opportunity [54:45] insatiable curious guy, right? [54:46] >> Mhm. [54:48] What do you think the responsibility is [54:51] of someone who has a platform? Mhm. [54:56] to vet or understand the credibility [55:02] especially when it comes to science or [55:03] those kind of things of what their guest [55:05] is saying. [55:06] I think that we [55:09] the school of podcasters haven't really [55:12] we don't have the um [55:15] the ex the training that journalists do. [55:18] So, we're almost catching up in that [55:20] regard, especially if you become a big [55:21] podcaster because you're kind of held [55:23] you're held at a in a different level. [55:24] So, more recently, one of the things we [55:26] do is we we've hired a I mean this [55:28] recently was a year and a half ago. We [55:29] hired a PhD who does exactly that, who [55:32] after this comes out will go through [55:33] everything that you said and then put on [55:35] the screen things that were [55:39] not within scientific consensus. But [55:41] that in itself [55:45] is a decision. Yeah. [55:48] Yeah. [55:49] It is a decision. [55:53] It's not a choice without consequence [55:54] either. No, some people don't like it. [56:00] What led you to that choice? [56:02] When your podcast reaches lots of people [56:05] you're forced It's kind of going goes [56:06] what I said earlier about the political [56:07] stuff. You're forced to really get clear [56:10] on what you believe and like what [56:11] matters to you. And one of the things [56:12] that matters to me is that the stuff we [56:15] put into the world, we feel like it's [56:17] helping people even if it's not nice. [56:20] And it kind of goes to something that I [56:21] read in your work, which is like our [56:22] objective isn't to be [56:24] nice, it's to be kind. Oh, yeah. And so, [56:26] for example, my convers- the [56:27] conversations we have about AI, like I'm [56:29] well aware that that's not going to [56:30] necessarily make you feel great. [56:33] But [56:34] I think the avoidance of discomfort in [56:36] in through history Oh god. hasn't led to [56:38] great places. So, like if you think [56:40] there's a bus coming, I can you know, [56:42] it's [56:43] I can pretend there isn't, but if I [56:45] think that there might be a bus coming [56:46] and if if experts in are telling me [56:48] there's a bus coming, I think we should [56:49] have a conversation about the bus [56:50] coming. And actually, me having that [56:51] conversation, I get messages all the [56:53] time which is like please stop talking [56:54] about this subject. It doesn't make me [56:55] feel good. [56:57] I'm very anchored to like what my my my [56:59] job is here, and I think it's we can [57:01] push people further [57:02] towards uh [57:04] we can we can create progress through [57:10] honest conversations. [57:11] So, when the podcast got bigger and you [57:14] get more and more you get attacked more [57:16] for any any of your guests that you have [57:17] on, you have to get clear on what [57:19] matters to you and what your job is. And [57:20] so, one of the things I thought is [57:21] actually when we have these [57:21] conversations, I want them to be as [57:23] accurate as they possibly can be. [57:25] For the listener who might be confused [57:27] cuz it's a confusing world in this new [57:28] world of democratized media. [57:31] So [57:32] we do that. [57:33] >> I really respect that. I just want to [57:34] say um I don't think [57:37] that that choice [57:39] is the easy choice. [57:42] What is the easy choice do you think? [57:44] The easy choice is [57:47] I'm going to let you [57:49] say whatever you want [57:52] and I'll let my listeners sort out if [57:53] it's real or not. [57:55] Mhm. [57:56] >> [clears throat] [57:58] >> And I'll take no responsibility for the [58:00] credibility [58:02] or the facts that are being presented. [58:06] Mhm. Um [58:08] what I think is interesting about what [58:10] you're doing [58:12] is [58:18] it just seems like a very solid approach [58:21] where [58:24] I'm a big believer in science. You know, [58:26] I'm married to a physician. I'm a social [58:28] scientist. Like I'm I'm I'm not going to [58:31] be the golden child of this [58:32] administration when it comes to science [58:34] for sure. Like I have a I love science [58:37] Mhm. [58:38] shirt that I wear with a DNA scarf. So, [58:40] like I'm I'm like I'm very real about [58:43] that. [58:45] I also don't think [58:48] that everything that we see [58:50] that is projected as peer-reviewed [58:54] clinical trial, you know, I think [58:57] challenges to that system are also [58:59] important. I think science cannot be a [59:02] self-referencing system anymore than any [59:04] other system can be. So, to have people [59:06] that have different opinions or new [59:08] opinions Mhm. on [59:11] but to let your listeners or your [59:14] viewers know that this is not an opinion [59:17] where there's a lot of a data collected [59:19] or that this is a controversial opinion [59:21] is respecting people's cognitive [59:23] self-determination. [59:26] I I just think it's a it's it's an [59:28] interesting way to do it. I just I I [59:30] think [59:31] I launched the podcast and it became [59:33] very big during COVID. [59:35] I got you. [59:37] Yeah. [59:38] And so [59:40] Houston is home to the biggest medical [59:41] center in the world. [59:43] Like in the world. [59:45] And I live in the medical center area. [59:48] In the beginning there were just, you [59:50] know, it just there never stopped being [59:52] funerals for physicians and people [59:53] working on COVID. And so to hear on [59:56] podcast that it doesn't exist. [59:59] Yeah. Or that you can use, you know, [60:02] Windex or you know, like some [ __ ] [60:04] like that. [60:05] I I just started to and then I got into [60:07] a little dust-up around it in my own [60:09] situation. And so [60:11] I'm always interested as we enter this [60:13] world in [60:16] platform and podcast responsibility. [60:21] It is a it's a slippery slope and it's [60:24] um [60:24] >> Berry. And there's no [60:27] there's no perfect outcome. Like you [60:29] don't want to go too far either way, [60:30] right? You don't want to like have the [60:32] government get involved and tell you [60:33] what truth is or [60:33] >> Right. But you also don't want to stray [60:35] into um conspiracy land and um Right. [60:39] >> away from science because [60:41] you know. [60:44] There are things that are knowable. [60:45] Yeah, there are things that are [60:46] knowable. But [60:47] >> Yeah. But [60:50] I don't know. I I I just think it's an [60:52] interesting question for this time and I [60:54] think it's an interesting question when [60:56] you have a platform that's powerful. [60:58] And I think if you're doing the best you [61:00] can to make decisions based What What is [61:03] the question [61:05] >> [clears throat] [61:06] >> that drives your decision-making? For [61:08] me? No, like just in general. Yeah, [61:11] I got yours. You want you want to you [61:13] want to help your listeners and you want [61:15] to do good. Yeah. Um that's a different [61:18] thing than downloads. [61:20] You can do both. You can do both. But if [61:23] your only filter Well, oh you you'd go [61:25] for [ __ ] total conspiracy. Yeah. [61:27] >> Right. Right. Right. Right. Right. So I [61:29] just think it's I just think it's an [61:31] interesting question. I don't have an [61:32] answer. I just know that it's an [61:33] important question. Yeah, and you know [61:35] what? I'll be honest so as um [61:37] I mean we're not journalists we're not [61:39] journalists here. So we don't really [61:40] understand the rigor and I've got a lot [61:41] of respect for journalists and the the [61:42] effort they've put in to understand the [61:43] journalistic method and all those [61:45] things. I feel like we're somewhat [61:46] catching up. We didn't this podcast went [61:47] from zero to 70 million people a month [61:49] in [61:50] 4 and 1/2 years or something. Hard. So [61:53] and we're just [ __ ] holding on. Like [61:54] me and Jack didn't run a podcast before. [61:55] So I didn't run one before and so [61:58] we're now catching up and part of the [61:59] part of the way that we're shaped is [62:01] with feedback and you get lots of [62:03] feedback. Don't have this person. I'll [62:04] never speak to this person again. Don't [62:05] know. And you kind of get back that [62:07] stuff off but if there's any ever [62:08] anything that actually feedback that [62:10] actually isn't contra- contradiction [62:12] that does test your own mission or your [62:15] own values, then you listen and you will [62:16] you know [62:17] you can start to innovate and one of the [62:19] things that we thought was smart was to [62:20] have the pop-ups on screen which [62:22] everybody is probably familiar with by [62:24] now. And it's a balancing act. We don't [62:25] want to completely discredit everything [62:28] that a guest has to say but we also just [62:29] want to give context. And that's kind of [62:32] context what they're saying. If [62:33] something's ridiculous we'll just remove [62:34] it. Like if something's absolutely we [62:36] will not publish the episode is probably [62:37] a better way of saying it. We had a [62:38] couple of episodes where people said [62:40] some guest said some things which were [62:41] just [62:42] absolutely [ __ ] crazy. You don't need [62:44] a PhD to know that [62:46] you can't exercise by lying on the [62:47] ground. Like I think this one guest had [62:48] said to me [62:50] that you can build your muscles just by [62:51] laying on your back or whatever and [62:53] not doing anything. We just didn't [62:54] publish the episode. [62:55] >> I can just say as a PhD that I have [62:58] attempted that. [63:00] Yeah, it doesn't work. And it was FOR [63:01] JACK [ __ ] [63:02] >> [laughter] [63:03] >> I THINK JACK MADE A GOOD POINT. I GIVE [63:05] YOU A PHD on the just laying still. [63:07] Yeah. [63:08] No, I think that I respect the approach. [63:11] And it's [63:11] >> one of the reasons I decided to come on. [63:13] Cuz I respect the approach. We're not [63:15] perfect but we're trying. [63:17] And it's tough, you know. [63:18] >> That's the thing that you're walking a [63:20] path. [63:22] The world of business looks entirely [63:23] different today than it did 15 years [63:25] ago. Back then building a brand meant [63:27] having huge budgets, warehouses, office [63:28] space and lots of lots of staff. But now [63:31] you can start a business with your [63:32] laptop, an idea and the right tools and [63:34] I would know more so than anybody else [63:36] because that's exactly what I did. [63:37] Shopify is one of our long-standing [63:39] sponsors on the show and they're a brand [63:40] I often refer people to when they're [63:42] starting their businesses because it's a [63:44] tool that contains many more tools [63:45] within itself. And when you're starting [63:47] out everything is everywhere. It's messy [63:50] and it's confusing so having everything [63:51] in the same place is incredibly useful. [63:54] Shopify puts store design, payments, [63:55] inventory, shipping and even AI tools [63:58] all in one place and you can sell [64:00] directly from your website or on social [64:01] media, essentially wherever your [64:03] customers spend their time. It's truly a [64:06] brilliant business tool. So if you want [64:07] to give it a go, head to [64:08] shopify.com/bartlett [64:11] and sign up for your $1 per month trial [64:14] period. That's shopify.com/bartlett. [64:17] On that point about me and vulnerability [64:20] is vulnerability important? Cuz there's [64:22] a lot of performative vulnerability [64:23] taking place in the [64:25] Is is it an important thing for my [64:26] health, happiness [64:28] my future to be a vulnerable person? [64:30] Well, let's define it. Um vulnerability [64:33] is the emotion we experience when we [64:35] have when we are up against uncertainty [64:39] risk and emotional exposure. [64:42] So vulnerability is what I feel. [64:44] It's the cringe. [64:46] The awkward, the thing that I the [64:48] emotion I feel in times of uncertainty, [64:51] risk or emotional exposure. So it was [64:54] really interesting because I had a hard [64:56] time helping people understand because [64:59] there's we are so raised to believe that [65:01] vulnerability is weakness [65:03] that it took a trip to Fort Bragg [65:05] working with special forces to ask [65:07] soldiers a question. Give me a single [65:10] example of courage in your life. One [65:13] example that you've witnessed or you you [65:15] yourself have done. One example of [65:17] courage that did not require [65:19] uncertainty, risk or emotional exposure. [65:23] No one could answer it. Finally a young [65:25] soldier stood up and said three tours. [65:27] There is no courage without [65:28] vulnerability. So is vulnerability [65:31] important? It is if we want to be brave [65:33] with our lives. [65:34] If we if we want to be able to manage [65:37] ourselves in a way [65:39] that's values-aligned [65:41] and courageous, we have to be able to [65:44] reconcile how we feel when we're [65:48] uncertain, at risk or exposed. I mean [65:51] and really weirdly [65:53] the next week after the trip to Fort [65:54] Bragg, I was with the Seattle Seahawks, [65:56] the football team, NFL team. Asked the [65:58] players [66:00] give me an example of courage on the [66:02] field or off [66:03] that did not require vulnerability. [66:05] They said that it's not possible. There [66:07] is no courage. Like if you're doing [66:10] things in your life in your work [66:13] and there's no risk, no uncertainty [66:17] and no exposure, then they're not brave. [66:20] If you know how it's going to end [66:23] that is not courage. [66:26] Courage is the willingness to show up [66:28] and be all in when you cannot predict [66:30] the outcome. [66:32] Courage is saying I love you first. [66:36] >> [snorts] [66:37] >> That's you you want to know what [66:38] vulnerability is? I love you first. Have [66:40] you ever said I love you first? [66:49] Uh I'm not sure. Yeah. It's been a [66:51] while. [66:51] >> But it's hard. It's you know. [66:53] >> So I need to give context. It's been a [66:55] while since I've been in that situation. [66:57] Well, you had to go first. Yeah, we're [66:59] not going to go first here. Yeah. I mean [67:00] there's this great story that I tell [67:02] about [67:04] I I gave a talk here. It was actually in [67:06] LA and afterwards a kid came up to me. [67:08] He's probably 22 or 23 and he said, "Can [67:10] I tell you a story about your work and [67:11] how it's really changed my life?" And I [67:13] was like, "Sure." And a kind of crowd [67:15] grew around and this is like the last [67:18] time I ever got penned like not being [67:20] able to exit a stage [67:22] because it was such a traumatic It [67:23] wasn't traumatic but it was like he [67:24] said, "Well, I was dating this woman [67:28] and I was so crazy about her. So I took [67:31] her to eat to our favorite restaurant [67:33] and I waited until the dessert came [67:35] because we love this chocolate volcano [67:37] and I ordered it and I said, [67:40] "I love you." [67:42] And she looked at me and she said, "I [67:44] think you're awesome. [67:48] And I think we should date other [67:51] people." [67:53] And then she Ubered home. [67:57] And so I was like, "God damn, this is [67:59] the worst story I've ever [68:00] >> [laughter] [68:01] >> This is not a good story." And he said, [68:05] "So I got in my car and I drove home and [68:08] the whole way home [68:09] I just kept saying to myself over and [68:11] over, [ __ ] Brené Brown. [ __ ] Brené [68:14] Brown." [68:15] I'm like, [68:17] "When does this When When's the turn on [68:18] the story, you know?" And he said, "I [68:20] got home and I walked into my apartment [68:23] and I pushed the door open [68:25] and both my roommates were wired in and [68:27] they were on their computers and they [68:28] looked up and said, 'Dude, what's going [68:30] on?'" [68:31] And he said, [68:32] "I told her I loved her [68:34] and she told me I was awesome." [68:36] And one of my roommates looked at me and [68:38] said, "What the [ __ ] were you thinking? [68:40] That's not how it works. When you are [68:43] going toward them, they go away. So [68:46] you're always kind of going away so they [68:49] come toward you." And he goes, "Oh. Oh, [68:52] no. [68:54] No. [68:55] I don't want to I don't want to be that [68:56] dude. [68:58] I was daring greatly." [69:01] And he said both of his roommates just [69:02] got teary-eyed and went, "Right on, man. [69:06] Right on." Like [69:09] there is no courage without [69:10] vulnerability. [69:12] How can you say you're brave [69:14] if you're not putting yourself out [69:15] there? [69:17] So many people have been through things [69:18] which have made it very, very difficult [69:20] for them to be [69:22] vulnerable. [69:23] I was speaking to someone yesterday who [69:25] was cheated on [69:27] bunch of attachment issues in their [69:29] early childhood. And funnily enough, [69:31] when I was talking to her about I was [69:33] asking her questions about cuz I'm very [69:35] deep personal I just carries over into [69:37] my personal life. I was asking her [69:38] questions about the things you know [69:40] she'd been through and whatever else. [69:41] She just shuts down. And she told me [69:43] that she she um [69:44] >> [clears throat] [69:45] >> What were the exact words? She said that [69:47] she finds vulnerability [69:50] to be a form of intimacy that she tries [69:54] to stay away from because [69:57] she needs to really really really trust [69:59] the person before she opens up. And I [70:01] think this is a trend you see across a [70:02] lot of people they [70:03] they won't open up enough to form a [70:05] connection [70:06] because they've been hurt before by [70:08] opening up. [70:09] And it feels too scary to do that. And [70:11] that results in them being single, [70:14] alone, unhappy, [70:17] so on and so on. [70:19] Yeah, I mean I think there's there what [70:21] you said was so loaded [70:24] with so many things. So first of all, [70:25] there's there there there's this very [70:27] interesting relationship between [70:28] vulnerability and trust. [70:30] And how does that work? And [70:32] people always ask me what comes first, [70:34] trust or vulnerability? Do I trust you [70:36] first then I'm vulnerable or am I [70:37] vulnerable first and then I trust you? [70:39] And I think it's a very slow stacking. [70:41] We get to know each other. I share a [70:43] little bit. I don't I don't share Hey, [70:45] nice to meet you Steven. Here's my [70:46] darkest horrible most painful trauma, [70:50] you know, cuz that that is actually [70:52] that kind of litmus testing is actually [70:55] a form of armor. I'm going to throw [70:57] something at you [70:59] that our relationship in no way has been [71:01] built long enough to hold. You're going [71:03] to go away and I'm going to use that as [71:06] verification that vulnerability is [71:07] dangerous. Like That's litmus testing. [71:10] Mhm. Let me prove to you [71:12] that you're not trustworthy. Na na na na [71:14] na na na Oh, I see you're backing away. [71:17] That's what I thought. [71:18] I'm backing away because we haven't [71:19] built a relationship that can bear the [71:21] weight of this story. [71:23] Can we start Can we start small? Okay. [71:26] Vulnerability, trust, vulnerability, [71:28] trust, vulnerability, trust. [71:30] Mhm. [71:31] >> [clears throat] [71:31] >> I think [71:33] I get in that in my work we call that [71:34] like the smash and grab. Like I'm going [71:37] to I'm going to hit you with something [71:38] really big and then watch you go away [71:40] and use it as evidence. [71:43] Mhm. Yeah. [71:44] And it takes a really skilled person to [71:46] say [71:47] yeah, I'm really [71:50] I'm taking in what you told me. I want [71:51] to be respectful and honor that. [71:53] And [71:55] I don't have a way to file it right now [71:56] cuz I don't know you well enough. [71:59] So I appreciate the share I mean we also [72:01] call it spotlighting. So like if I had a [72:03] military grade spotlight that they use [72:05] in the wilderness. I work with the [72:06] military a lot. And I I picked it up and [72:10] put it in your face right here. What [72:12] would you do physically? Uh [72:14] That's what that's our reaction to too [72:15] much vulnerability too fast. Yeah. Like [72:18] yeah, I don't know I don't know you. [72:20] Yeah. Um [72:21] So you're talking about the slow [72:23] stacking of courage and of vulnerability [72:25] and trust. And then you're also talking [72:26] about that when [72:29] >> [clears throat] [72:30] >> when we've had a lot of hard things [72:32] happen to us, [72:33] I think this is where I really believe [72:35] in the democratization of coaching and [72:37] therapy that a lot of times we have to [72:40] work with people. Like we have to get [72:42] help [72:43] to be able to open up and take off some [72:45] of the armor that we put on because [72:47] sometimes that armor [72:49] that we put on is freaking survival. [72:53] I mean and you want to start adding you [72:55] want to start adding variables like [72:56] race, [72:58] gender, [72:59] like you know, [73:01] any anything where there's social [73:04] systems also at play. That's survival. [73:06] Like telling me right now at my career [73:10] like hey, you should be vulnerable with [73:12] your new team. And and talk about your [73:14] previous failures, you know. Well, of [73:16] course I could do that and I would do it [73:18] and everybody would clap and they'd [73:19] think man, she's so brave. And take the [73:21] new person who's a young black woman or [73:24] the new first LGBTQ person on a team and [73:26] say hey, tell tell every Don't tell [73:28] anybody [ __ ] [73:31] Develop trust first. [73:34] Develop uh see how how trust your own [73:37] instincts about the accountability of [73:39] this group to hold themselves [73:40] accountable for their behavior. Like [73:43] vulnerability [73:44] is not more necessary for any of us than [73:47] anybody else, but certainly more [73:49] difficult for other for for some people [73:51] for sure. [73:52] And I think [73:54] what's hard about that, what's so [73:56] painful, probably the most painful part [73:58] of my career [73:59] is that [74:01] regardless of why the armor is on, [74:04] without vulnerability you cannot access [74:09] the experiences that are the most [74:11] meaningful in life. [74:12] Love. [74:14] To love someone is to be vulnerable from [74:16] the time you wake up to the time you go [74:17] to bed. You know that, you're in a [74:18] relationship. To love is to be [74:20] vulnerable, right? [74:21] >> Mhm. [74:21] >> [clears throat] [74:22] >> And have you ever buried someone you [74:23] loved? [74:25] Like I lost my mom 2 years ago. Like [74:27] my kids it's like having your heart live [74:29] outside of your body. Like to love is to [74:32] be vulnerable cuz it's to risk grief and [74:34] losing. [74:35] Belonging is vulnerable. The most The [74:38] most vulnerable human emotion? [74:41] Joy. [74:43] Joy is so vulnerable [74:45] that when some of us get close to it, we [74:48] dress rehearse tragedy [74:51] to prepare for disappointment. [74:54] Like it's so vulnerable that we don't [74:56] even let ourselves feel joy because [74:59] we're so afraid someone's going to rip [75:00] it away and we're going to get sucker [75:01] punched by disappointment. [75:04] Yes or no? Like people choose to live [75:07] disappointed [75:09] rather than to feel disappoint risk [75:11] feeling disappointed and get excited [75:12] about something. [75:14] You know, it's like the first time my [75:15] kids shared with me when they were [75:17] young, [75:18] certainly not the way I was raised, but [75:20] you know, I I really really want to make [75:22] this team, Mom. [75:24] And I said [75:25] I want to pause you for a second [75:27] and tell you how brave it is [75:30] to talk openly about something you want [75:32] so much when you don't have control over [75:34] whether you get it or not. [75:36] I want I want it for you because you [75:38] want it, but regardless of what happens, [75:40] I admire your courage for wanting [75:42] something and sharing out loud that you [75:45] want it. [75:46] Because if you don't get it, I'll know [75:48] that it was a crushing blow. [75:51] But that's so great because I'll be here [75:53] for you when that happens either way. [75:56] So we And I And I'm really I'm a really [76:00] I'm I we call it foreboding joy. [76:02] That joy is so good [76:04] we're just waiting for the other shoe to [76:05] drop. And people who have trauma [76:07] histories are really like that. Like for [76:09] me [76:11] cuz of the way I was raised, [76:14] when something good happens, I'm like oh [76:15] god, now what's going to happen? [76:17] Statistically, bad shit's going to roll [76:19] around any second now. [76:21] And it's interesting cuz the group of [76:23] people that we researched, the only [76:25] group of people [76:26] that could take that You know, there's a [76:28] bodily quiver, right? Of vulnerability. [76:30] Do you have you felt it? [76:31] >> Yeah. Yeah. [76:32] The only people that can really lean [76:35] into joy consistently are people who use [76:38] that vulnerability quiver [76:41] as a reminder to be grateful. [76:44] To be able to practice gratitude in that [76:46] second. So gratitude is a huge [76:50] enabler of joy. Is that automatic or can [76:53] one train that? [76:54] >> No, it's a training. Oh [ __ ] no I had [76:55] to [76:56] I mean [76:58] standing at my front door [77:00] watching [77:02] my 16-year-old daughter walk down the [77:05] sidewalk with her boyfriend in high [77:06] school and get in his truck for for [77:08] prom, right? [77:10] And I'm standing there and I'm like [77:13] oh god. [77:15] And you know, what am I worried about? [77:16] You know, prom night. [77:18] Like car wreck, right? [77:20] Of course like I when I tell the story [77:21] the military's always like pregnancy. [77:22] I'm like no no no no no, car wreck. And [77:25] so I just remember staying there and she [77:26] gets in and and I'm staying next to [77:29] Steve and Charlie [77:31] my my son's, you know, at this time he's [77:33] 10. And I'm like I'm so grateful. I'm so [77:36] grateful. I'm grateful for this moment. [77:37] I'm grateful that I'm a part of it. I'm [77:39] grateful that they did the corsage and [77:41] the boutonniere over here. I'm grateful [77:43] that I got to help pick out the dress. [77:44] I'm so grateful. And Charlie goes [77:48] looks at Steve, what's wrong with Mom? [77:50] Um and Steve goes, she's she's [77:52] practicing gratitude. Let her do it [77:54] otherwise she's going to be on a crazy [77:55] train. It's going to be all hell and you [77:57] know, like cuz part of me wants to say [77:59] oh god. [78:00] Oh god. [78:02] Like so beautiful and so joyful. [78:04] And get in your truck and follow them [78:06] right now. If he's speeding, I want to [78:08] know about it. If he's not stopping [78:09] fully to stop sign, follow them until [78:11] this date is over. You know, that's [78:13] that's what I want to do. [78:15] Cuz I'm afraid. [78:17] Cuz that that joy of that moment was [78:19] just too much for me. [78:22] Too vulnerable. It appears you've [78:24] overcome [78:26] various traits of old [78:28] Rene Brown. [78:30] No, I'm overcoming. Overcoming? No, I'm [78:32] not over I I not overcome. Have you [78:33] overcome anything? [78:36] Yes, a belief that I will overcome [78:37] anything. I've overcome the belief that [78:41] I have overcome the belief that [78:47] I will ever arrive. [78:49] I am grateful for the skills that I have [78:52] that are new skills that keep me more [78:55] aligned with the person, the mom, the [78:56] partner, the leader that I want to be. [78:59] But I [79:00] I [79:02] am [79:03] mindful of all the I try to stay very [79:05] mindful that I am scary when I'm scared. [79:09] That I catastrophize very very easily [79:12] and that's painful for everybody around [79:13] me. [79:14] And I don't need to be liked. I just [79:16] need to be myself. Like But those are [79:18] things [79:20] cuz I will I will sit down like 2 days [79:22] ago and like, "Oh my god, it'd be so [79:23] freaking easy to be liked here." [79:26] I was like, "This will be This would be [79:27] a piece of cake." And I'm like, "Shit, I [79:29] don't do that anymore. Bummer." [79:31] 2 days ago? Yeah. Out of what? [79:34] Just with a group of people that I knew [79:35] what it would take to be liked. [79:37] And you made the choice to [79:39] >> Just to be myself. [79:40] >> Yeah. [79:41] Why? [79:43] Because now the person I'm going to [79:44] betray [79:46] last is me. [79:50] Yeah, I hope I see you again, but [79:52] not that important. [79:54] Some people might find that somewhat [79:56] demoralizing to know that they they too [79:58] might never cure [80:01] parts of themselves that they're [80:02] desperate to change. I think people, you [80:04] know, they often come to podcasts like [80:05] this or read books like yours looking [80:07] for solutions fixes [80:10] to not liking myself, to the way that I [80:12] react to my emotions. They want to fix [80:14] it. [80:15] Cuz if they can fix it, then they can be [80:17] happy. I don't think that's in the [80:18] consideration set. [80:20] For a very [80:23] beautiful reason. [80:25] >> [clears throat] [80:27] >> That if we could fix it [80:30] and never have to wrestle with it again [80:34] we would be so short on grace [80:37] for other people. [80:39] That we would be [80:42] tyrants. [80:45] So, you think it it creates a form of [80:46] empathy for others? Yeah. I mean, like [80:49] I'm not going to I have like really [80:51] serious boundaries. I'm a very boundary [80:52] person. But when I see someone behaving [80:55] a certain way, I was like, "Uh, my [80:57] [ __ ] sees [80:59] your inner [ __ ] right here. I get I [81:00] get it I get what you're doing. I'm not [81:01] going to tolerate it. I'm going to set a [81:03] boundary around it. [81:05] But I'm not really judging you for it. [81:06] It's just that behavior's not okay right [81:08] here." But you like yourself now? [81:16] Yeah. [81:17] Yeah. [81:18] I do. [81:19] I I [81:25] Yeah, I do. [81:28] I do. [81:29] I can I can [81:31] I can I think I can say that pretty [81:34] I like what I'm becoming. [81:36] And for anyone that doesn't like [81:37] themselves, what what work has had to go [81:39] into getting to the point where you like [81:40] what you you're becoming? [81:51] I think the hardest is [81:55] maybe one of the biggest findings of my [81:56] research over the last 25 years is it's [82:00] not [82:01] fear that gets in the way of us being [82:03] brave with our lives and our work. [82:06] It's armor. [82:08] Everybody's afraid. [82:09] It's okay to be afraid. [82:11] What's dangerous is the armor that we [82:13] reach for to self-protect when we're [82:15] afraid. [82:16] And how that armor moves us [82:19] away from [82:21] love, connection [82:23] and our values. And so, [82:26] I think the hardest work is [82:30] for me [82:31] constantly being aware of what is my [82:34] armor. What am I What am I grabbing for [82:36] when I'm afraid? What am I grabbing for [82:39] when I want to protect my sense of [82:40] self-worth, my ego? Like and and how [82:44] heavy that [ __ ] is. [82:47] You know, at some point I had to wear [82:49] it. [82:50] Because that was survival for me growing [82:53] up. [82:54] But this is the big This is the big [83:00] developmental milestone [83:03] of middle age, which you are squarely in [83:05] train. [83:06] Which is kind of when the universe grabs [83:09] you by the shoulders and pulls you [83:11] really close [83:13] and says [83:14] "I'm not [ __ ] around anymore. [83:17] I gave you gifts. [83:19] Choosing not to grow into them is not [83:22] benign. [83:25] There's a consequence for that. And your [83:27] armor is getting in the way. [83:30] You're grown-ass person now. [83:33] You have different choices. [83:35] Let go of what doesn't serve." [83:40] And that is the big milestone, I think, [83:42] that we have to wrestle with in midlife. [83:46] What no longer serves that's preventing [83:49] us from growing into who we want to be. [83:52] And is that where vulnerability comes [83:53] into the picture? Oh, for sure. Cuz all [83:55] the armor [83:56] all the armor [83:58] is about vulnerability. [84:01] It requires a huge amount of um I was [84:03] going to say self-awareness. [84:05] Yes. [84:06] >> That some people just don't could [84:07] probably never accomplish. I mean [84:12] That's why I think metaphor is helpful. [84:16] I mean [84:17] most of us can understand [84:19] if you back me into an emotional corner [84:23] what are you going to get? [84:25] Like as a leader, I know my armor, [84:27] perfectionism, micromanagement. I get [84:29] super intensive. I get recklessly [84:31] decisive. [84:34] I know my armor. [84:35] And my team knows my armor. [84:39] I think [84:41] my armor in my personal life, especially [84:43] when it comes to my kids, when I get [84:46] when I feel vulnerable [84:48] is control, control, control. [84:52] Take over all the chess pieces. [84:55] But that's [84:57] not a good idea. [84:58] It's not possible. Hm. It's just It's [85:01] just pretend. That's called anxiety. [85:04] Like pretending that you can control the [85:05] chessboard of other people's lives, let [85:07] alone your own, much less other people's [85:09] lives. But I think I do it out of [85:14] fear. [85:18] Is fear the opposite of [85:21] courage? Or is it? [85:22] No, I think the opposite of courage is [85:24] armor. [85:25] Armor, okay. I think the opposite of [85:27] courage is self-protection. [85:30] To be courageous in this context, [85:31] whether it's as a leader or in another [85:33] environment, you talk about these four [85:35] steps to courage. You talk about it in [85:36] Strong Ground. [85:38] Yeah. [85:39] This was research that emerged like 15 [85:40] years ago, and I was really really [85:43] nervous cuz I'm a grounded theory [85:44] researcher. I'm a qualitative [85:45] researcher. So, a grounded theory is [85:48] only as good as its ability to work new [85:50] data. So, you develop a hypothesis or a [85:52] theory based on data. And then as you [85:55] collect more data, does the hypothesis [85:58] hold? And, you know, this we collected [86:01] that data pre-pandemic. [86:03] You know, [86:05] pre pre a lot of things. And so, I was [86:09] really worried about the four skill sets [86:10] of courage, which are [86:13] identifying and understanding your core [86:15] values. [86:17] I would love to do this exercise with [86:18] you sometime. [86:19] Um two, [86:21] understanding what gets in the way of [86:23] you wrestling with vulnerability, kind [86:25] of owning it and moving through it [86:27] constructively. [86:28] Three, how to build trust and how to [86:30] become super important trustworthy to [86:33] yourself. Self-trust. [86:36] Because one of the first casualties of [86:38] failure or disappointment or setback is [86:42] we lose [86:43] our our ability to trust ourselves. [86:46] Our ability to make good decisions. Our [86:48] ability to take care of ourselves. And [86:49] the last one, which is my favorite [86:52] because [snorts] [86:53] it can really I've seen it really change [86:54] an organization is [86:56] how to get back up after failure and [86:58] disappointment. How to reset. How to be [87:02] how to manage your own bounce when hard [87:04] [ __ ] happens. [87:07] So, those are the four skill sets of [87:08] courage. Again, [87:10] evidence-based [87:12] observable, measurable, and teachable. [87:14] We've taken 165,000 [87:17] people through this work across 45 [87:19] countries. [87:21] Collected data on all of it. It's so [87:23] exciting. And it withstood all of the [87:26] complex changes over the last 5 years, [87:30] including AI. [87:32] Organizational because this is where we [87:33] do our work. I don't I'm not a therapist [87:34] or clinician. I don't work with like [87:36] families or individuals. I mean, I have [87:37] a therapist, but I'm not one. [87:39] Um so, I think [87:43] you can develop skirt courage skills. [87:46] The the third point is braving trust. [87:48] Yeah. And I've heard about your marble [87:50] jar theory. So, I've got a jar of [87:51] marbles. [87:52] >> that. Um could you explain to me what [87:54] your marble jar You look at how excited [87:56] you are. I know. [87:58] Um so, this comes You know, where where [88:00] is where where do I get my information? [88:02] Ellen's in fourth grade, my oldest. She [88:04] comes home from school. Mhm. The front [88:06] [clears throat] door closes. She slides [88:08] down the door into a heap sobbing. [88:11] I'm like, "God, Ellen, are you okay? Are [88:12] you hurt? What's going on?" She says [88:15] that [88:17] something hard happened. [88:19] She shared it like very confidentially [88:21] with one or two of her friends during [88:22] recess. [88:23] When she got back to the classroom [88:26] they had told everybody in her class, [88:27] all 30 kids. [88:29] Everybody was laughing and pointing and [88:31] making fun of her. [88:33] And she said, "I will never trust anyone [88:35] again." [88:37] And my response immediately to my in my [88:39] mind was, "Damn straight. Not [ __ ] [88:42] person. You trust your mama, and that's [88:44] it." Like that was my response. But [88:46] again, [88:47] that's not the right thing to do, right? [88:50] You want a kid who can develop trust [88:51] with others. So, I said, "Trust is [88:54] really hard." She said, "I don't [88:55] understand it." [88:57] And her teacher at the time, Mrs. [88:58] Bockum, had a mar- a marble jar. [89:01] And when the team when the when the [89:04] class would collectively make good [89:05] decisions, she would put marbles in this [89:07] empty jar. And when it got full, they'd [89:09] have an extra recess and party. Mhm. [89:12] And [clears throat] so, immediately what [89:13] came to me, cuz I'm describing trust, [89:15] which is a hard concept to a fourth [89:17] grader. I said, "Trust is the marble [89:19] jar." [89:20] She's like, "What do you mean?" And I [89:21] said, [89:23] "Every time you share somebody something [89:24] with someone that's confidential and [89:26] they don't share it, they get a marble. [89:28] Every time you build trust, [89:30] when you want to share something really [89:32] private and personal, you look for a [89:34] friend whose jar is full of marbles." [89:37] "Do you have any marble jar friends?" [89:39] She's like, "Not the ones I shared with [89:41] today." And I said, "Who are your marble [89:42] jar friends?" And she said, "Hannah and [89:44] Lorna." And I said, "Tell me something [89:46] they do to earn marbles." "Oh, well, [89:48] like if I get to my tray late at lunch [89:51] and there's no place to sit, Lorna will [89:53] scoot over and give me half her seat and [89:54] then we just share one seat and I can [89:56] sit at the table. And then the other day [89:59] when I had strep throat, Hannah was [90:01] worried about me. So remember her mom [90:03] called and said, 'Hannah's worried about [90:04] Ellen, why wasn't she at school?' But [90:06] then the biggest thing that Hannah did [90:07] was the other day, [90:09] Oma and Opa, my parents, my mom and her [90:11] her husband, came to my soccer game and [90:13] Hannah looked over and goes, 'Oh my god, [90:16] your Oma and Opa are here.' And I said, [90:20] 'Why was that a big deal?' And she goes, [90:21] 'Because everybody's divorced and [90:22] remarried and I've got eight [90:24] Yeah, four sets of people and she [90:26] remembered their names.' [90:27] And what was shocking to me is that [90:29] Ellen was conveying [90:32] that these marbles [90:34] were being earned on these very small [90:37] She knew my grandparents' name. She gave [90:40] me a seat to sit at. She checked on me [90:42] when I was missing school. [90:44] And so [90:46] it made me start thinking about the [90:47] literature on trust. So I immediately go [90:49] to the Gottmans. Have you had the [90:51] Gottmans on here? [90:51] >> Oh, twice, yeah. Yeah, I mean just like [90:53] yeah. So I go to the Gottmans' research [90:56] on trust and I read right off the bat [90:59] where Gottmans say, "Trust is earned in [91:02] small moments every day." He tells a [91:05] story. It's my favorite story that he [91:07] tells and I've had them on my podcast [91:08] and I've [91:09] done blurbs for their books and written [91:11] forwards. They're just great. So he [91:12] tells a story about how he's also a [91:14] mystery lover like me. He's on the [91:16] second to last page of his mystery. [91:18] He's like, "Oh my god, oh my god. Who [91:20] did it?" And he jumps up to go brush his [91:22] teeth and he gets gets walks to the [91:24] bathroom and he sees his wife crying and [91:28] brushing her hair. He's like, "Shit. [91:30] Don't look. Everything's good. Just go [91:32] to the bathroom and get back in your get [91:34] get back to your book." And he's like, [91:36] "That's a sliding door moment. [91:39] I can I have a choice in that moment [91:42] to build trust and stop and say, 'What's [91:44] going on?' [91:45] or to build betrayal and pretend like I [91:47] don't see her hurting." [91:49] "So I stop. I take the brush out of her [91:51] hand. [91:52] I start brushing her hair and say, [91:54] 'What's going on?'" [91:57] That's a sliding door moment that we [91:58] have all the time, right? And so to me, [92:02] trust is built slowly over time, a [92:05] marble at a time. [92:07] And that's how That's how we teach trust [92:10] to the most senior leaders in Fortune [92:12] 100 companies. [92:14] The trust is the marble jar. It's [92:15] earned. [92:17] Leaders believe [92:18] and you're a leader, so you know you [92:20] know the temptation. [92:21] Leaders believe that in the middle of a [92:24] crisis, [92:26] you know, [92:27] you put the numbers together and there's [92:29] a fever dream in the United States and [92:30] there's new tariffs and you wake up and [92:32] you know, you're you're you've got a [92:33] revenue line that's in crisis and then [92:35] you can just look at your people and [92:37] say, [92:38] "Hello everyone." This is like back to [92:39] the the uh executive presence. "Trust [92:42] me. Here's what we're going to do." And [92:44] it means nothing to people. What matters [92:47] is a leader that walks past you in the [92:48] morning and says, "Hey, good to see [92:50] Steven. How's your mom's chemo going?" [92:55] Marbles. [92:56] Marbles. Then when the crisis happens, [92:58] you don't need to say, "Trust me." [93:00] You just need to say what's on your [93:01] mind. They trust you. [93:04] The other thing I think uh [93:06] is often plagued my mind is as a leader, [93:08] sometimes you say things and those [93:09] things can't happen for whatever reason, [93:10] things change. [93:11] >> Right. And um [93:14] And I think leaders sometimes think that [93:16] trust is always being correct, always [93:18] predicting everything correctly, always [93:20] being right. [93:22] No. [93:23] Trust is [93:25] Man, I think we had nailed this. [93:28] I thought [93:30] this was how this was going to happen. [93:32] We were wrong. You've been [93:34] [clears throat] working your asses off [93:35] for 6 months on this [93:37] and I've got to deprioritize it today [93:38] standing right here in front of you. [93:40] But I'm not going to [ __ ] you. [93:42] You've been working your ass off on a [93:43] priority [93:44] that literally does not exist today. [93:47] Hm. [93:48] I want to stop and say thank you. [93:50] I saw what you were doing. [93:53] I want to be completely transparent [93:54] about why the priority has shifted. [93:56] And then I'm going to ask you for the [93:58] same level of work on the new priority. [94:02] Yes or no? [94:03] Yeah, and then the blame and [94:05] responsibility often rear their heads. [94:07] That's right. [94:07] >> For for better or for worse. [94:08] >> Go like this. My eyelash or something. I [94:10] know. One marble. There you go. Oh. [94:13] Yeah, [laughter] is that a marble? Yeah, [94:14] that is. Yeah. Yeah. Cuz you didn't have [94:16] to say that, you know. [94:17] I think that sometimes people say you've [94:19] got some [ __ ] on your shirt. I'm like, [94:20] that's thank you so much because it [94:21] would have been much [94:23] easier for you not to point out the [94:25] boogie on my face or whatever, you know [94:26] what I mean? I don't trust somebody that [94:27] doesn't do that. So I guess it is [94:29] [clears throat] a marble. [94:31] Hm. [94:33] Someone said to me a couple of weeks ago [94:34] on the podcast, they said, "I trust [94:35] people who say things in public that is [94:37] against their near-term interests." And [94:38] I thought, "Hm." Oh. [94:40] Oh, I That's [laughter] good. [94:44] That's That's like a That's like a [94:47] That's a [94:50] Right? Yeah. Yeah. It's a good metaphor [94:53] though, right? Mhm. Mhm. The trust in [94:55] the [clears throat] marble jar has been [94:56] very helpful for us. Mhm. And let me [94:58] tell you, there are behaviors [95:00] This is plastic. [95:02] There are behaviors in relationships [95:04] where you take this whole thing and just [95:06] slam it on the ground. Cheating. [95:08] I think that's an obvious one. [95:17] There's one that's more has a more [95:20] ragged edge of grief and distress than [95:22] even cheating, [95:24] which is just slowly disengaging. [95:32] Emotionally disengaging. [95:33] >> Yeah. Mhm. [95:37] Yeah, gosh. That's a ragged That's a [95:40] ragged-edged break on that marble jar [95:42] and it just happens over time and every [95:45] Yeah, the the other people think that [95:46] they're nuts and it makes them question [95:48] their own judgment. [95:51] Working in the sales team at a startup [95:53] can be a strange experience because one [95:55] month you're chasing leads like the [95:57] future of the business depends on it, [95:59] which often it does, and then the next [96:01] month you're buried in them. Pressure [96:02] builds up and eventually it starts [96:04] clouding your judgment. Then you end up [96:06] making a reactive decision instead of an [96:08] informed one. Our sponsor, Pipedrive, is [96:10] the number one CRM tool for small to [96:13] medium businesses, made by sales people [96:16] for sales people. It helps you get [96:17] brutally clear on exactly where your [96:19] focus should be. It shows you what [96:20] opportunities have stalled and what is [96:23] worth your time and focus. And my team [96:25] have been using the new Pipedrive [96:27] Prospector tool, which uses AI to search [96:30] through over 400 million profiles to [96:32] find verified decision-makers and shares [96:35] their contact information with you. So [96:37] if you're interested in learning more, [96:38] head to pipedrive.com/ceo, [96:42] where you can get a 30-day free trial [96:45] and that's just for my audience, [96:46] pipedrive.com/ceo. [96:48] So it's time to join the 100,000 [96:50] companies that are already using [96:51] Pipedrive by going to pipedrive.com/ceo [96:54] now. [96:55] I did something at 24 years old that has [96:58] had a profound impact on my life. I set [97:00] myself the challenge of posting every [97:01] single day on my social media channels. [97:03] And at the time, I was doing it to grow [97:05] my following, but it had this profound [97:07] impact on my life and two remarkable [97:09] things happened when I did that. I [97:10] managed to learn faster because every [97:12] single day I'm capturing what is [97:13] happening to me and trying to distill it [97:15] down into something that I can share [97:17] with the world. But more remarkably, it [97:19] led me to building a following of many [97:21] millions of people and that's the basis [97:23] that I used to launch the Diary of a [97:24] CEO. And that's why I want to tell you [97:26] about our sponsor today, Adobe Express. [97:28] They are the platform that I use to make [97:30] all the posts across my LinkedIn and [97:31] across my Instagram. It's a couple of [97:34] clicks and you don't need to be an [97:35] expert and that is why I love using it [97:37] because I'm not an expert in graphic [97:38] design. It's accessible to use for all [97:41] of us, even if we don't have the [97:42] technical prowess to design great [97:44] things. So if you want to start [97:45] compounding both your reach and your [97:46] knowledge like I did at 24 years old, [97:48] then head to adobe.ly/steven [97:52] and get started with Adobe Express. [97:54] That's adobe.ly [97:56] / Steven. [97:58] You have been in a relationship much [97:59] longer than me, but we share a lot of [98:01] similarities in many ways. I was [98:02] wondering if um [98:03] if you were to give me [98:05] any relationship advice that might hold [98:07] my [ __ ] together Mhm. over the next 30 [98:10] years. [98:12] I mean, you could give me so much, I [98:13] know, cuz I've seen I've seen so much of [98:15] your incredible I've actually stolen so [98:16] much advice. One of the things I stole [98:18] recently, which me and my girlfriend [98:19] talked about, was [98:20] sometimes I'd come home and I'm on like [98:22] 10% and I heard you say this. [98:23] >> Oh, yeah. And I just I don't communicate [98:25] to my girlfriend that I'm on I've got [98:26] like 10% left. [98:28] >> Yeah. And then she you know, she might [98:29] want to try and work through some [ __ ] [98:30] Yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, [98:31] yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah, yeah. [98:32] It's going to go bad. Yeah, it's going [98:33] to go bad. Yeah, let's not do this at [98:35] 1:00 a.m. No. [98:36] >> [clears throat] [98:37] >> And I saw you talk about how you [98:38] communicate, you vocalize what you have [98:40] left in the tank to give context to the [98:42] person. I guess it's to create some [98:43] empathy for both of you, but I've stolen [98:45] that. But is there anything else that um [98:47] you think might help me over the next 30 [98:48] years to have a good relationship with [98:51] my girlfriend with all the risks that [98:53] you see? I'll just start by saying I [98:54] think therapy, [98:57] couples work, is like so incredibly [99:00] powerful and helpful. I think the [99:02] Gottmans' work [99:04] is really like we read the Gottmans' [99:06] work together sometimes. I think I think [99:08] that's helpful. I'm surprised you were [99:11] willing [99:12] as someone that struggles with [99:13] vulnerability. Oh, yeah. No, for sure. [99:16] Well, you you weren't No, I was willing. [99:18] Oh, really? Okay. [99:18] >> Yeah, yeah, yeah. I I struggle with [99:21] vulnerability, but I really respect [99:24] humility in people so much that even if [99:26] I'm not feeling humility, I will fake [99:29] humility and be like, I need help. And [99:32] then I'll say, [ __ ] this is real. This [99:34] is hard. This is They say, got my [99:35] number? Like, how [99:36] >> [laughter] [99:37] >> I damn. Hey, they just call the thing a [99:39] thing. They hurt my feelers. Um but I I [99:43] guess the biggest thing is that not [99:45] neither Stephen I nor I had [99:48] any modeling of what a healthy [99:50] relationship looked like [99:52] at all. [99:55] And [99:57] I think one commitment we made is to [100:00] just [100:01] keep showing up. I think these are the [100:03] three commitments. Keep showing up. [100:06] Don't buy into the [ __ ] that it's [100:08] supposed to be easy. It'll be the [100:09] hardest thing you'll ever do. And ask [100:11] for help. [100:13] And that's not There's no [100:15] I wish I could give you like a Here's [100:17] the secret to it. But the secret to us [100:19] is we keep showing up. [100:22] We know it's not supposed to be easy. [100:25] And we get help. [100:26] And the help being [100:28] you turn to him and ask for help or [100:30] external [100:30] >> Well, we Well, we get external help, but [100:32] we read. We try new things. [100:35] Um [100:38] we try new tools. [100:39] We just [100:40] we don't ever want to be done learning [100:42] and trying to be better for ourselves [100:44] and for each other. [100:47] And that's a lot. I mean, 38 years [100:49] together [100:51] is [100:54] not just like the slow roll movie [100:58] of a life and a family, [101:01] but we've [101:02] buried parents. [101:04] You know, we've gone through illnesses. [101:08] We've [101:10] raised, you know, kids. We've [101:14] We've gone through different seasons in [101:16] our own lives where we were not synced [101:18] at all. [101:19] It's really, really hard. [101:21] But it's I'm more proud of it than [101:24] anything I've ever done. [101:26] Cuz my setup for success was zero. [101:29] You've buried parents. [101:31] Yeah. Christmas day? [101:33] My mom died on Christmas day after my [101:34] sisters and I were there at her primary [101:36] caregiver for 4 years with dementia. 4 [101:38] years. [101:44] I wouldn't wish that [ __ ] on the people [101:47] I hate the most. [101:49] I know I try not to hate people, but I [101:52] God gives me grace for it on occasion. [101:54] But um [101:56] I would not wish that on anybody. [101:59] You know, there's the reality of it, you [102:01] know, she gets there, there's an [102:02] accident. You're showering your mom. [102:03] You're bathing your mom. Mhm. You know, [102:05] and [102:08] she knows just enough [102:10] to be humiliated by it. [102:13] Mhm. [102:14] But this is life. Like this is This is [102:17] caregiving. [102:18] You know? [102:19] And it's a [102:21] tremendous emotional, physical, mental [102:26] weight that falls primarily on women who [102:29] are also in the workforce. [102:32] You know, thank God I had two sisters, [102:33] so there's three of us. [102:35] Um but [102:37] and many people have very Many people [102:39] have zero. It's like you and your PhD [102:42] research PhD researcher. I have [102:45] resources. [102:47] A lot of resources. [102:49] And I think it almost killed me. You [102:51] know, and so [102:53] It almost killed you. I mean, yeah, it [102:55] it [102:58] to lose someone that you love like I [103:00] love my mom in bits and pieces [103:04] in chips and bones in, you know, like [103:07] that is [103:09] you know, and then [103:11] there was a day when she just got [103:12] incredibly, incredibly cruel. Like my [103:16] mom was the fulcrum. [103:20] Our family changed on her back. Like she [103:23] was the first person to go to therapy. [103:25] She left my dad. [103:27] She got us into therapy. She worked [103:29] three jobs. She She changed everything. [103:33] She talked about the long history of [103:34] addiction in our family, you know, on [103:37] both sides, everywhere. She changed our [103:39] family. And so to say she was like, you [103:42] know, somebody who I respected and [103:45] revered like was is an understatement. [103:48] And you know, [103:51] and we did so much healing work [103:53] around [103:55] kind of how she showed up as a parent in [103:58] her marriage with my dad. And so then [104:01] the one day I went to go take care of [104:02] her and I saw that thing that hadn't [104:04] seen since I was 14, you know, and I'm [104:06] 54. [104:08] You know, and it literally like I [104:10] couldn't drive. Like it brought me [104:12] physically to my knees. [104:14] Like Like my husband had to come and get [104:16] me. [104:18] And I don't like [104:22] I can't I can't talk about it without [104:23] getting emotional cuz it's not like I [104:24] blamed my mom cuz she's in the middle of [104:26] this disease, you know? But it was like [104:29] I [104:30] I didn't see her for 2 months after [104:32] that. [104:34] And Steve kept saying, I I said, I [104:35] can't. And he's like, you got to you got [104:37] to heal from that. I mean, just imagine [104:40] being dropped back in [104:42] a worst-case scenario situation when you [104:43] were 13 or 14. [104:45] And then, you know, you're just like, [104:47] I can't I can't. [104:49] And, you know, my sisters were like, [104:51] I got We got We got this. [104:53] And then they'd go through a period [104:54] where they were like, I can't right now. [104:57] And then I Okay, I got it. But Steve [104:59] always had it. [105:04] Steve was like, I got the diaper. [105:06] I'll take him to dinner. [105:08] I'll meet with the doctors. Like, that's [105:10] partnership. [105:12] You know what I mean? That's [105:12] partnership. [105:14] How did you How did you deal with the [105:15] grief? [105:17] Well, [105:19] don't send me your hate mail, [ __ ] [105:21] but you know, when she died, it was [105:23] nothing but relief. [105:25] I've heard this I've never not heard [105:26] that from someone that had a parent with [105:29] struggling with dementia. Absolutely. [105:30] >> It was complete relief. I mean, the day [105:32] before she died, I think we had a really [105:33] important time with her. [105:35] And [105:37] I'm sure she is, you know, [105:39] playing dominoes with Ann Richards and [105:41] Molly Ivins and great other female Texas [105:43] politicians. Um [105:46] Democrats. But um cuz my mom was very [105:48] radically political, but [105:50] uh [105:57] the window of grief was just years of [106:02] There There was, you know, [106:03] very early on there was no calling her [106:05] to say, oh, Charlie got a really cute [106:07] date. Let me show you the homecoming [106:08] pictures. Or hey, Ellen, you know, got [106:10] into her master's program. That that all [106:12] just went away. Just every [106:15] week. [106:18] And so [106:20] that's why, you know, the whole the [106:23] whole Strong Ground book, there's a [106:25] there's a sentence in the in the first [106:26] chapter that said, I have a sticky note [106:29] on my window on my mirror in the [106:31] bathroom that says, I'd rather be the [106:33] oldest woman in the gym than the [106:35] youngest woman in assisted living. Mhm. [106:37] Because [106:39] I do believe in the connection around [106:41] exercise, you know, dementia. And I I [106:44] took care of my grandmother with [106:46] dementia with my mom. [106:50] And my mom and my grandmother made a lot [106:52] of different lifestyle choices than I've [106:54] made, but [106:56] the whole Strong Ground metaphor is that [106:59] I went to go see a trainer. [107:02] And one day he looked at me and he said, [107:05] he called me Brown. He said, find the [107:08] ground, Brown. [107:09] And I looked down and I said, okay. And [107:10] he goes, not the floor, the ground. Take [107:12] your feet, [107:14] push in to the ground. Use your mind to [107:16] connect with your body. Push into the [107:19] ground and then tell your mind you're [107:21] going to be using [ __ ] lats. [107:23] And I was like, okay. So I did it [107:27] and I felt them. [107:29] And I started whispering every time I [107:31] would do a weightlifting thing, strong [107:33] ground, strong ground. [107:36] Strong ground. An unbelievable [107:38] unbelievable book. So if we we didn't [107:40] cover everything in this book today, [107:42] which is a great shame, but hopefully [107:44] we'll speak again in the future. But [107:45] it's the lessons of daring leadership, [107:46] the tenacity of of paradox, which is [107:48] something I was keen to talk about, and [107:49] the wisdom of the human spirit. All of [107:52] your books are amazing. You said it [107:53] earlier on that someone called you a [107:54] wizard when you were younger. That's [107:55] exactly what I think you are. [107:57] I think you're a wizard. [107:59] Why? I think you're a wizard. You have a [108:00] unbelievable pattern recognition, [108:02] understanding of humans. You have so [108:04] many wide reference points that it [108:05] appears to be magic to a muggle like me. [108:08] We're out I had a time in the team and [108:10] we're going to run through the door if [108:10] I'm not careful. [108:12] But we have a closing tradition on this [108:13] podcast where the last guest leaves a [108:14] question for the next guest, not knowing [108:15] who they're leaving it for. You actually [108:16] know this person. Is you? I know the [108:18] next guest? No, you know the one that [108:19] left the question for you. Oh, got it. [108:20] But they didn't know it was for you. [108:22] Dear beautiful and highly intelligent [108:25] next guest, [108:26] what are you optimizing for right now? [108:35] Strength and longevity. [108:38] Mentally, physically, spiritually, and [108:40] emotionally. [108:42] Strong ground. [108:45] The lesson The lessons of daring [108:46] leadership, the tenacity of paradox, and [108:48] the wisdom of the human spirit. You are [108:52] You are [108:53] I was trying to think if there was any [108:54] others. You are the single most [108:56] requested guest um and you have been on [108:58] the show for for a long, long time, for [109:00] three or four years. When we ask people [109:01] who they want me to speak to, they say [109:02] your name. And they say your name [109:03] because of these the incredible work [109:05] you've done through your own podcast, [109:06] which I'm going to link on the screen [109:07] and below right now, but also through [109:09] some of these incredible books which [109:10] have changed people's lives. If you're [109:12] unfamiliar with Brené's work, um [109:15] I think people will understand after [109:17] listening today how much they're missing [109:19] out on. I'd highly recommend you go and [109:21] listen to Brené's podcasts, um but also [109:23] to [109:24] check out this book Strong Ground, which [109:26] I'm going to I'm going to link below. Um [109:28] also Dare to Lead. I think all of um [109:30] all of the leadership team in my office [109:31] reference Dare to Lead so often, which [109:34] is an incredible book about Brave Work, [109:35] Tough Decisions, and Whole Hearts. You [109:37] make the most beautiful artwork. I [109:39] consider these books to be artwork again [109:41] because they pull on so many different [109:42] reference points to make something that [109:44] feels so original. And you've helped so [109:46] many people. The fact that my audience [109:47] have demanded I speak to you for so long [109:49] I think is testament to that. And um [109:51] you're a wonderful human being. And [109:52] actually one of the things you've [109:53] inspired me to be [109:55] is myself. [109:56] Because that's exactly what I find you [109:58] to be. So, thank you so much, Brené, for [109:59] your time today. It's deeply, deeply [110:01] appreciated, more so than I could say. [110:02] And I think you're a wonderful human [110:03] being. Please come back again soon. I [110:05] will. I have enjoyed every minute of [110:07] this. I would say it has not been easy [110:10] cuz we went to some hard places [110:12] together, [110:13] but [clears throat] it's been [110:14] meaningful. [110:15] Thank you. Thank you. [110:17] >> [music] [110:26] [music] [110:37] [singing]