WILLINK SEES AUTONOMY AND DETACHMENT DRIVING INDIVIDUAL PERFORMANCE

威林克：自主与抽离驱动个人表现 行动与战术抽离能够扭转逆境与情绪波动，而相比转瞬即逝的动力，自律为长期执行提供了远为可靠的基石。 Jocko Willink阐释了自律、日常作息与即刻行动如何构成韧性与个人自主的支柱。他探讨了提升思维清晰度的实用工具，例如清晨锻炼、断食以及短时间高强度爆发性运动以激发专注力。其哲学的核心在于抽离（detachment）技能——通过在身体层面后退一步、放慢呼吸并保持全局视角，从而在领导力、高压情境和人际关系中做出更明智的决策。他最终强调，直面问题并主动接纳刻意的不适，能锤炼出克服逆境所必需的心理韧性。 自主权是人类付出努力与自律的终极回报，相比金钱或外在资历，它能为人生带来更大的长期价值与掌控力。 (0:23) 高充沛的日常精力来自规律运动和听到闹钟后的机械执行，而非被动等待清晨自发的动力或内心妥协。 (2:40) 面对失败、悲伤与挫折，迅速采取建设性行动是摆脱精神内耗与重塑韧性的根本解药。 (6:31) 优秀的领导者必须从群体情绪中抽离出来充当平衡砝码，在团队胜利时注入谦逊，在遭遇挫折时提供鼓励与方向。 (8:34) 通过物理后撤、深呼吸以及抬起下巴放平双手的动作，能够迅速拓宽视野并平息情绪波动，从而做出更理性的决策。 (28:19)

Retired Navy SEAL officer Jocko Willink argues that sustainable resilience, leadership, and emotional regulation rely on immediate physical action and deliberate psychological detachment rather than fleeting motivation. Autonomy, Discipline, and Morning Execution (0:00) Willink views autonomy as the ultimate reward of human effort, noting that wealth offers little value without control over daily life. He traces this realization to joining the military, where past credentials vanished and present performance directly dictated future freedom. Because he considers motivation an unreliable and transient emotion comparable to happiness or sadness, Willink relies exclusively on discipline to govern his daily routine. To eliminate friction, he avoids morning mental negotiations by treating the alarm robotically. Rather than waiting for energy to appear, he uses rigorous physical training—such as lifting, running, surfing, and jiu-jitsu, often capped with short, high-intensity anaerobic bursts—to generate mental clarity and elevate mood. Willink couples this physical routine with daytime fasting, reserving his primary meal for the evening to maintain high-stakes cognitive alertness during client consultations, podcasts, or tactical debriefs. Action as the Counter to Adversity and Defeat (6:31) In assessing BUD/S training, Willink notes that elite Division I athletes frequently fail because instructors engineer situations that force candidates to face failure—an outcome high performers who have always won often cannot process. Once inside the SEAL teams, resilience becomes an essential baseline when handling setbacks ranging from professional stagnation to the death of teammates. According to Willink, the most effective antidote to grief, setbacks, and depression is immediate action. He visualizes depression as an insular storm cloud that distorts perspective and prevents individuals from recognizing external solutions. To counteract paralysis, he advises individuals to adopt physical momentum—echoing Tim Ferriss's maxim to get out of one's head and into one's body—arguing that solutions to problems are never discovered by passively dwelling within them. Detachment and the Leader as a Counterweight (8:34) Willink equates an organization's collective psychology to a mob that fluctuates between arrogance following a victory and despair following a disaster. Effective leadership requires emotionally detaching from the group to serve as a stabilizing counterweight: introducing humility and critiques when a team wins, and offering constructive focus and encouragement when it loses. He applies this same counterbalancing mechanism to parenting, arguing that steady guidance tempers excessive celebrations while protecting children from burnout or despondency after a loss. This leadership perspective stems partly from Willink's youth in the DIY hardcore music scene, which normalized being an outsider and gave him the confidence to challenge orders constructively. In interpersonal conflicts, he advocates for an indirect approach—building collaborative rapport on adjacent topics rather than engaging in direct confrontations that prompt defensive posturing. Physical Mechanics of Detachment in High Stakes (23:54) Willink conceptualizes detachment not as formal seated meditation, but as an active habit practiced throughout the day. He first recognized its value during an oil rig training mission as a junior SEAL: by taking a step backward off the firing line while senior leaders were hyper-focused down their weapon sights, his field of vision widened from 20 degrees to a panoramic view, enabling him to call the decisive tactical maneuver. To replicate this state under civilian stress, Willink relies on conscious physical micro-adjustments. These include physically pushing his chair back from meeting tables, taking slow breaths to avoid projecting panic, lifting his chin, and dropping his hands out of an instinctual combat posture to signal an openness to listen. Willink emphasizes that remaining silent is essential, as talking prevents detachment and obscures structural weaknesses in opposing arguments or personal disputes. Willink asserts that mental toughness is built through progressive exposure to deliberate discomfort, akin to physical training. However, the discussion centers primarily on military and high-performance business applications, leaving open how these aggressive action frameworks translate to clinical mental health contexts or non-hierarchical environments.

前海豹突击队指挥官Jocko Willink在与Andrew Huberman的对话中提出，真正的韧性与领导力并非源于瞬时的情绪或外在动机，而是建立在刻意训练的自律、身体力行的即刻行动以及生理与心理层面的“抽离”（Detachment）技巧之上。 自律替代动机与自主权的价值 (0:00) Jocko Willink指出，许多人误以为高产出依赖于源源不断的动力，但动机本质上只是一种转瞬即逝的情绪，极不稳定，因此他在日常决策中从不依赖动机，而是纯粹依靠机械式的自律去执行任务。例如清晨闹钟响起时，他坚决避免任何内在协商或心理辩论，直接进入执行状态。他早年受到硬核朋克音乐DIY（自己动手）文化的影响，形成了不盲从大众、敢于独立承担与提出异议的性格基底。 在Willink看来，人类付出努力的终极报酬并非财富本身，而是掌控个人日常生活的“自主权”（Autonomy）。他回忆步入军旅生涯时，过往的一切文凭与SAT成绩都被清零，这一彻底空白的起点让他深刻体会到，当下的行动直接决定了未来两到五年的走向。若拥有巨额财富却丧失对自己日常事项的掌控力，生活便毫无价值；专注于能积极影响未来的行动，是建立确定性与自主权的根本途径。 以即刻行动化解逆境与悲伤 (6:31) 在探讨面对失败与挫折的应对机制时，Willink分析了海豹突击队基础水下爆破/海豹训练（BUD/S）的高淘汰率现象。许多在高中或大学NCAA第一级别（Division I）表现优异的明星运动员在选拔中往往率先退出，原因在于他们一生习惯了胜利，从未学会如何消化必然遭遇的失败，而教官会刻意针对每个候选人的短板施加挫败感。真正合格的队员必须具备极快的失败恢复能力。 当面对战友阵亡、晋升受阻或生活重创等极端逆境时，Willink认为坐视和反复思虑只会让负面思维滋生蔓延，唯一的解药就是采取具体的即刻行动。将陷入抑郁和心理困境比作裹在头部的厚重风暴云，当事人往往因视角完全受阻而看不到身边的资源与退路；此时与其在思维泥潭内部苦寻方案，不如借鉴Tim Ferriss所说的“走出大脑，进入身体”，通过强制性的物理行动打破僵局，重新校准心理状态。 领导者作为团队情绪的平衡器 (8:34) Willink将组织或团队的群体心理比作街头乌合之众（Mob），极易走向极端情绪：在任务胜利后容易滋生傲慢自满，忽视任务复盘与装备维护；而在遭遇伤亡或挫败后，士气则可能彻底跌入绝望深渊。领导者的核心职责是从这种群体情绪狂热中抽离出来，充当团队心理的“平衡配重”（Counterweight）。当全员狂喜时，领导者需注入谦逊并指出不足；当团队低落时，则需给予支持并迅速将焦点引导至复盘与下一次任务。 这一平衡原则同样适用于家庭养育和个人生活。例如孩子在摔跤比赛夺冠并渴望过度放纵庆祝时，父母不应扫兴，但需适度降温，提醒其关注下一场训练；在孩子失利时则不可落井下石，而应给予包容与客观视角。Willink警告，从不庆祝胜利会导致职业倦怠，而周围充斥着唯唯诺诺的附和者则会让人走向毁灭，长期的稳定性依赖于持续的理性制衡。 抽离技术：物理微调与间接路线 (18:31) Willink分享了自己在20世纪90年代作为初级海豹队员在石油平台演练时的经历：整个小队在拐角处陷入长达20秒的僵局，所有指挥官都将视线紧缩在枪械瞄准镜的20度狭窄视野内；Willink通过向后退一步，获得了宽阔的全景视野，从而打破沉默指挥了正确的战术清剿。这段经历确立了他对“抽离”能力的推崇——将其视为在混乱现场保持客观大局观的终极超级力量。 在民用与商业场景中，Willink将抽离拆解为可训练的物理动作：在会议室发生激烈争执时，他会主动将椅子向后推离谈判桌以拓宽视野；在开口前深吸一口气以避免慌乱语调；刻意抬起下巴并放下双手，以瓦解人类本能的防御性搏斗姿态；并且全程保持闭嘴倾听。此外，在处理人际冲突时，他主张放弃正面强攻，采用军事上的“间接路线”（Indirect Approach），先就外围议题建立互信关系，避免双方陷入自我防御战，最终协同解决问题。 身体机能与主动不适的心理塑造 (4:12) 在日常生理管理方面，Willink严格遵循以提升执行力为核心的作息。为了保障白天的清晰思维，他白天空腹工作，避免大餐带来的迟钝感，将主餐安排在傍晚6至7点，这种间歇性断食为高风险执行任务提供了必要的专注力。他的日常体能训练包括力量举重、跑步、冲浪以及下午的巴西柔术，并在训练末尾安排10至15分钟的风阻自行车、划船机或重壶铃摆荡等高强度无氧冲刺，作为快速激活认知敏锐度的触发开关。 针对刻意置身于不适环境的价值，Willink给出了完全肯定的答复。他将意志韧性与身体肌肉进行了类比：正如深蹲能够锻炼腿部力量、引体向上能够强化背部肌肉一样，心理韧性同样需要通过一次次主动承受困难、强迫自己面对厌烦与艰苦任务的“重复训练”（Reps）来构建，自律是实现自我提升不可替代的基石。 Willink所倡导的核心框架将海豹突击队的作战经验转化为普适的处世机制，强调将主观情绪与客观执行剥离。然而，该策略高度依赖个体的极端自控力与严苛的身体管理习惯，普通人在缺乏系统化战术训练或处于严重病理性抑郁时，能否单纯依靠自主行动与物理抽离达成预期效果，对话中并未展开深入探讨。

[0:00] Jocko Willink: You can have all the money in the world, but if you don't control what you're doing every day, or at least you don't control most of what you're doing, then it's not worth it. The reason people try and make money is so they can have more autonomy in their life. [0:00] Jocko Willink: The more I focused on doing things that are going to positively impact my future, the better my life became. [4:12] Jocko Willink: You get a certain level of mental clarity when you haven't eaten a bunch of food. [4:12] Jocko Willink: I don't want to have food in my stomach when I've got to perform or execute anything. [6:31] Jocko Willink: So often the best way to contend with problems, with issues, with adversity is action. Is by taking action. The more you sit and the more you wait... the worse it's going to get. [8:34] Jocko Willink: You as a leader can't get caught up with the mob. You have to detach yourself from the mob mentally so that you don't get caught up in their emotions and their morale... you can't correct it. [23:54] Jocko Willink: Hold left, clear right. [30:20] Jocko Willink: Oh, that sounds horrible... what do you think you're going to do?

[0:00] Welcome to Huberman Lab Essentials, [0:02] where we revisit past episodes for the [0:04] most potent and actionable science-based [0:06] tools for mental health, physical [0:08] health, and performance. [0:11] I'm Andrew Huberman and I'm a professor [0:13] of neurobiology and opthalmology at [0:16] Stanford School of Medicine. And now for [0:18] my discussion with Jaco Willink. Jaco [0:20] Willink, welcome. [0:22] >> Thanks for having me, man. [0:23] >> In my view, and I think in the view of a [0:25] lot of people, you embody discipline. So [0:26] today I definitely want to talk about [0:29] routines but also mindsets but also [0:32] things that you do and ways that you [0:34] approach things that might not [0:36] contradict but not be so obvious to [0:37] people might um be a little bit [0:39] counterintuitive. There are generators [0:42] and projectors and generators are people [0:45] that are just from a very young age they [0:48] realize they can impact other people. [0:50] They want to create things in the world. [0:52] And then there are these projectors that [0:54] like to just kind of reflect on what [0:57] they see. And it's not that generators [0:59] are good and projectors are bad. The [1:01] world needs both. That they really work [1:03] in a kind of symbiotic way. But your [1:05] story captures the essence of what it is [1:07] to be a generator, which is that by [1:09] doing certain things, you can have an [1:10] impact and it feeds back to you and it's [1:12] likely that they receive something from [1:14] it as well. [1:14] >> Yeah. And where this all came to [1:16] fruition as I as I now piece together as [1:19] you're talking through this stuff. Look, [1:20] when I joined the military, [1:23] you join the military and you get a [1:25] blank slate. No one cares what you got [1:27] on the SATs or the no one cares about [1:29] anything. You're a blank slate. And then [1:31] with that blank slate, it is, hey, if [1:35] you do this thing, if you perform this [1:38] task and you perform it well, you will [1:40] get recognition. you will hopefully get [1:44] more control over your own destiny, [1:47] which is the ultimate in compensation [1:49] for for human beings to have more [1:52] control over your own destiny. You can [1:54] have all the money in the world, but if [1:55] you don't control what you're doing [1:58] every day, or at least you don't control [2:00] most of what you're doing, then then [2:01] it's not worth it. The reason people try [2:03] and make money is so they can have more [2:06] autonomy in their life. And so in the [2:08] military, it became very clear to me [2:10] very quickly that if I performed well, I [2:13] actually got a lot more freedom with [2:15] what I did. That's when I started to [2:18] realize, oh, what I'm doing right now is [2:21] going to impact not only what's going to [2:23] happen to me in the next hour, but in [2:24] the next 2 years, 3 years, 5 years, the [2:27] more I focused on doing things that are [2:29] going to positively impact my future, [2:30] the better my life became. And I think [2:33] that's a very huge lesson to learn that [2:37] I know I didn't figure out for quite [2:38] some time. [2:40] >> I get the impression and I think [2:41] everyone gets the impression that you're [2:42] somebody with a lot of energy. And I [2:45] wonder whether or not you wake up with a [2:47] lot of energy and you feel like you have [2:49] to burn it off with this physical [2:51] activity and and work and other demands [2:54] in your life or do you find that you [2:56] wake up and your energy is kind of [2:58] neutral and exercise and physical [3:00] activity gives you energy? [3:02] >> I would say it's both, right? There's no [3:04] way I could sit here and say, "Oh yeah, [3:06] every day that alarm clock goes off and [3:08] I'm like, oh yeah, let's rock and roll." [3:10] Not certainly that's not the case. It's [3:12] also certainly not the case that every [3:13] day I'm like, "Oh god, not again." No. [3:16] Uh, I'd say most of the time the alarm [3:18] clock goes off and I I I don't think a [3:20] bunch like when my alarm clock goes off, [3:22] I I don't debate with myself. I'm not [3:24] negotiating. I I just The thing goes off [3:26] and I'm doing what I'm supposed to do. [3:27] It's sort of robotic. Now, I this this [3:30] much I can say when you go and work out, [3:32] you're going to feel better. You will [3:34] get energy from working out. If you go [3:35] break a sweat, you're going to feel [3:36] better. This you're going to get more [3:37] energy from it. And look, you got to go [3:40] really, really hard to where now you [3:44] feel more tired when you're done. And [3:47] even that, I mean, you got to go psycho. [3:49] I'll do that occasionally, but I don't [3:51] do that on a daily basis. You know, at [3:53] the end of a day, if I wake up, lift, [3:57] run, surf, and then I do jiu-jitsu in [4:00] the afternoon. Like, at the end of that [4:02] day, I'm tired and I feel tired. Uh but [4:07] normal day working out just makes you [4:09] feel better. G definitely gives you [4:11] definitely gives me energy. [4:12] >> The idea that movement and exercise [4:14] gives us energy I think is an important [4:17] idea and it's something that I was [4:18] frankly I was hoping your answer would [4:20] be that as opposed to that you know you [4:23] wake up every day and you just want to [4:25] just attack the world because you have [4:27] so much energy getting out of bed [4:28] because frankly I never feel that way [4:30] but I always feel better after I train. [4:32] Do you nourish after you train or do you [4:35] find that eating slows you down? [4:37] >> I find that eating slows me down. So, [4:39] no. I don't eat a big meal until I'm [4:41] kind of done with the physical stuff for [4:43] the day, which is usually at night, 6 7 [4:45] o'clock at night, which I guess there's [4:47] some bad things about that. I eat too [4:48] late. Well, the data say, you know, if [4:51] you're having a regular meal schedule [4:53] that allows you to sleep well at night, [4:55] whatever that means for you and that [4:57] allows you to be active and focused when [4:59] you need to be active and focused, [5:00] that's the ideal schedule. [5:02] >> When I'm working with clients, like, so [5:03] I have a leadership consulting company, [5:04] Echelon Front, when I'm going to work [5:05] with a client, I'm not eating because [5:07] because they're going to be asking me [5:08] questions. We're going to be diving into [5:10] what's happening inside their business. [5:11] Like, there's a lot of stuff going on. [5:12] It's a lot of cognitive work. Podcast, [5:14] I'm not eating before a podcast. before [5:16] I'm recording a podcast, I'm not eating [5:17] because I don't want to have a bunch of [5:18] food in my stomach. I want to you you [5:20] get a certain level of mental clarity [5:22] when you haven't eaten a bunch of food. [5:24] So, going out on missions, I never would [5:26] eat before I go out out on a mission. I [5:28] would eat when I come home. You know, [5:30] get home 4:00 in the morning, 3:00 in [5:31] the morning from doing operation. Cool. [5:32] Then I'll eat cuz then I'm going to do a [5:34] debrief for 15 minutes, clean weapons, [5:37] and then eat a big meal, go to sleep. [5:40] Cool. Yeah. I don't want to have food in [5:42] my stomach when I've got to perform or [5:44] execute anything. [5:45] >> So much of what you embody and what you [5:48] do, I think, centers around this idea of [5:50] discipline, of course, but also energy. [5:52] It's the intuitive sense I get about why [5:54] people are so drawn to your messaging [5:56] and what you do and how you do it. Are [5:59] there certain forms of exercise like [6:02] weightlifting versus cardio that you [6:04] find give you an especially big boost in [6:07] what we're calling energy? And here this [6:09] could be cognitive energy, it could be [6:10] physical energy, but a a readiness for [6:12] the next thing. [6:13] >> I would have to say like the the [6:15] highintensity sort of anorobic blast, [6:18] you know, whether it's on the bike or on [6:20] the rower or, you know, swinging a [6:22] kettle bell hard, something like that. [6:24] That last 10, 15 minutes, that's a [6:26] really good way to, you know, peak my [6:29] mentality for the day. When you were in [6:31] the teams, [6:33] what was your observation about how [6:35] winning and losing would impact people [6:37] in the short and long term from the [6:39] perspective of leadership and maybe more [6:40] importantly from the perspective of [6:42] yourself? [6:43] How do you work with that? How do you [6:45] calibrate wins and losses? How do you [6:47] transmute losses into energy? Because [6:50] wins we know convert to energy, but [6:52] losses oftentimes can sap our energy [6:54] way, way down. To start with, I think [6:57] that the selection process to get into [6:59] the SEAL teams is going to weed out a [7:03] bunch of people that can't recover very [7:05] quickly from something bad. The kid that [7:08] was the star of the football team, the [7:10] star of the basketball team, the captain [7:12] of this, the captain of that, he's been [7:14] winning his whole life. He goes to Buds [7:16] and he quits. Because in Buds, you're [7:18] not gonna win. You're certainly not [7:20] going to win everything. They're going [7:22] to find what you're not good at and [7:24] they're gonna exploit that and you're [7:26] going to lose. A lot of guys that may [7:30] lose and it disrupts their their [7:32] motivation, they're probably just going [7:34] to quit. And so that's why you get this [7:37] massive attrition rate with guys that [7:40] are studs. Division one athlete, [7:42] division one wrestlers, division one [7:43] football players, division one runners [7:45] and swimmers, they all come to Buds. [7:46] They all quit. Not all of them quit, but [7:48] there's plenty of examples of the [7:51] highest level of collegiate athlete in [7:53] sports that translate very well to what [7:57] you're doing in in basic SEAL training [8:00] and they quit. And sometimes it's [8:02] because they don't know how to lose. [8:03] They don't know how to recover from a [8:05] loss. So I think already in once you get [8:07] to a SEAL team, you've got people that [8:11] are generally speaking going to be [8:13] pretty resilient when it comes to [8:16] dealing with a loss. Now once you're in [8:18] the teams and what you're talking about [8:20] is now you start taking much more [8:22] significant loss. You're not losing a [8:24] race, you're losing one of your friends. [8:25] And this is what from a leadership [8:26] perspective you have to you have to pay [8:29] attention to. So when you're a leader in [8:31] any organization, [8:34] you're basically in charge of a mob when [8:36] it comes to what their morale is. And [8:38] they feed off of each other just like a [8:40] mob riding in the streets going, "Oh, we [8:42] can break this window. Let's break all [8:43] the windows." And they they they move [8:44] this mob mentality. And that happens [8:46] with morale inside of a team. And you as [8:50] a leader can't get caught up with the [8:52] mob. You have to detach yourself from [8:54] the mob mentally so that you don't get [8:57] caught up in their emotions and their [8:59] morale because if you get caught up in [9:01] their emotions and you get caught up in [9:03] morir their morale, you can't correct [9:05] it. So, we go out on a mission. The [9:08] mission goes great. We get into a [9:11] gunfight, kill a couple bad guys, [9:13] everyone's okay, high fives, everyone's [9:15] feeling great. You come back to base. [9:17] Hey, we don't need to debrief. That was [9:19] perfect. Hey, we don't need to get our [9:20] gear, you know, uh, maintained. We can [9:23] just go to bed. We We're awesome. That's [9:25] when the leader has to say, "Oh, we've [9:27] got the mob, and the mob is becoming [9:29] slightly arrogant." Hey guys, real [9:32] quick, that was a good op, but there's [9:34] some things we could improve on. You got [9:36] to bring that mob back and bring them [9:38] back to center line. Same thing in the [9:40] other direction. You go out on an [9:42] operation, it doesn't go well. You go [9:43] out on operation, you take casualties. [9:45] Now you come back to base, you see guys [9:47] moping around, you see the the spirit [9:49] starting to break. And same thing if you [9:52] get if you're part of that mob, you'll [9:54] be you'll be with them. Your morale will [9:57] be breaking. Your spirit will be [9:58] breaking. You got to look and say, "Oh, [9:59] I see what's happening. Hey guys, listen [10:02] up. That was tough. Didn't go the way we [10:04] wanted it to go. We need to learn some [10:07] lessons. Here's some things I can do [10:08] better. What can we do better to make [10:10] sure that that never happens again?" So, [10:12] as a leader, when it comes to winning [10:14] and losing, you're generally going to be [10:16] the person countering what the mob [10:18] mentality is. Because when the mob [10:20] starts winning, they want to keep [10:22] winning and they might get arrogant. [10:24] When the mob is losing, they might start [10:27] to lose more because their attitude goes [10:29] down the drain. So, that's what you have [10:31] to pay attention to from a leadership [10:33] perspective. For me personally, [10:36] I think I know what I did when when I [10:41] lost guys was focus on all right, [10:47] we need to we need to celebrate the [10:49] life. We need to move the lo mourn the [10:52] loss [10:54] and then we need to go to work. We need [10:56] to get our gear back on. We need to lock [10:57] and load our weapons. We need to get [10:59] back out there. I I know that that's [11:02] what we needed to do, you know. So often [11:04] the best way to contend with with [11:07] problems, with issues, with adversity [11:11] is action. Is by taking action. [11:15] The more you sit and the more you wait [11:18] and the more time you spend with that [11:20] adversity with the upper hand inside [11:22] your head, the the worse it's going to [11:25] get. So for me, always taking action, [11:29] making something happen. It doesn't have [11:30] to be huge. It doesn't have to be some [11:33] mammoth triumph that you're going to go [11:35] and pursue. But if you say, "Hey, [11:37] listen. [11:39] This is what happened didn't go the way [11:41] we wanted it to. We're going to get our [11:42] gear back on. We're going to go back [11:44] out. We're going to do this other [11:45] mission." And it's in a in your personal [11:47] life, too. You know, something doesn't [11:48] go the way you wanted it to go. You [11:50] didn't get the job you wanted, you [11:51] didn't get the hire, you didn't get the [11:52] promotion, you can go home and sit there [11:54] and and and dwell on it. That's not [11:56] getting you any progress. Or you say, [11:58] "Okay, you know what? Let me do a quick [12:00] analysis. Why didn't I get that [12:01] promotion? Oh, it's cuz I didn't get [12:03] this qualification or I hadn't jumped [12:06] through this gate. Okay, cool. What do I [12:08] need to let me let me look into how do I [12:09] how do I get to jump through that gate [12:10] so next time I will get the promotion [12:12] and you start taking action. Action for [12:14] me is a cure for a lot of problems that [12:16] we have in life. I think that in the [12:18] context of moderating these systems, [12:21] it's so key. I mean, it's key to have a [12:23] long arc in a career path, military, [12:25] science or otherwise. As a father in [12:28] particular, [12:30] how do you apply these same sorts of [12:31] ideas when you know your kid is kind of [12:33] down because it's hard to be a [12:35] 14-year-old or because it was a bad day [12:38] or when they're up. [12:40] >> Well, clearly it's a very similar thing [12:43] to what I just talked about. You know, [12:44] if your kid is doing well and and wins [12:47] the wrestling tournament and is like, [12:49] "Yeah, I won the wrestling tournament." [12:50] And what do they want to do? They want [12:51] to eat a triple cheese pizza, right? I [12:54] mean, they want to go crazy. And you as [12:56] a leader and as a and as a parent and as [12:59] a friend need to say, "Hey, man. I mean, [13:02] you did good. That was awesome. You had [13:03] a great day, [13:05] >> but let's start thinking a little bit [13:07] about next week, too. How about we just [13:08] have a few slices of pizza, right? As a [13:10] reward." And this goes with yourself as [13:12] well. You know, you you do something, [13:14] you have a success, and you say, "Oh, [13:15] that that that's great. Uh, but [13:19] all glory is fleeting, and I need to get [13:20] back to work." And look, and do people [13:22] go too far with that sometimes? Yes, [13:24] absolutely. Sometimes people they they [13:26] don't stop and celebrate at all. And [13:28] those are the kind of people I think [13:29] that get burned out eventually because [13:30] they never say, "Hey, that was awesome. [13:32] We had a big win. Cool. High five." So I [13:34] think, you know, as a leader, as a [13:36] friend, as a parent, as a spouse, you [13:39] want to be able to modulate that, help [13:42] modulate that. Don't shut it down. You [13:45] know, your kid walks off the wrestling [13:47] mat with for a high five and you say, [13:50] "You could have won by more." No, I'm [13:52] not talking about that. or your kid [13:54] walks off the mat after losing, you say, [13:55] "You got what you deserve." No, you've [13:57] got to be the counter, the counterweight [14:00] to the emotions that other people have. [14:02] When you're doing a good job as a [14:04] leader, as a friend, as a spouse, as [14:05] whatever, you're doing a good job as a [14:06] counterwe. I think that's a a good way [14:09] to look at it. You want to you want to [14:10] provide some balance for people to make [14:12] sure that they don't get out of control. [14:13] And you you notice when people [14:17] have a downfall, it's normally because [14:19] they've surrounded themselves with [14:20] people that there's no counter to. [14:22] There's no counterbalance. You know, if [14:24] you were my best friend and I, you know, [14:26] I went out drinking last night and had a [14:27] great time and partied all night and met [14:30] a girl and you're like, "Heck yeah, [14:31] let's do it again tonight." Eventually, [14:33] where are we going to be? We're going to [14:34] be in the gutter somewhere. But if you [14:36] say, "Hey, dude, that was awesome, but [14:37] hey, remember we got school on Monday, [14:39] right?" And you kind of pull me back. [14:41] That's we we got to find balance in life [14:43] and ourselves. And then and then we gota [14:46] as much as we can provide balance for [14:47] other people because people are [14:49] emotional and they get caught up in what [14:51] they're doing and you want to you want [14:53] to keep people balanced. You seem to [14:55] have a very strong sense of context and [14:58] self. Was there something in your [15:01] upbringing your parents or or was it [15:04] just kind of how you always imagined [15:06] yourself as like yeah this is who I am? [15:08] Because I actually think that many [15:09] people do not have a very firm sense of [15:12] self or their sense of self is so rigid [15:16] that they can only operate in this like [15:18] narrow trench of one domain of life and [15:20] they end up very very isolated. As far [15:23] as kind of where I became me, I I just [15:28] actually have to kind of give a lot of [15:29] credit to the music that I grew up [15:31] listening to and the attitude that we [15:34] had back then listening to hardcore [15:37] music, being able to stand up against [15:41] what other people were saying, which is [15:43] what you're doing when you're in that [15:45] scene. And the whole DIY nature of it. [15:49] Hey, we we can just do this ourselves. [15:51] we can just make this happen for [15:52] ourselves. We don't need anybody else. [15:54] We can do this. And that hardcore [15:56] attitude and sticking by your friends [15:58] and standing up and getting in fights [16:00] and like that's what you're going to do. [16:02] That's kind of my attitude. That music [16:04] is the soundtrack to my life. And so I [16:07] always would have that music running in [16:08] my head. But to your question, I had [16:12] something in me that when I heard that [16:14] music for the first time, I was like, [16:17] "Okay, here it is." You know, here it [16:20] is. this is, you know, I hear the [16:22] Beatles, I hear the Grateful Dead, I [16:24] hear the Rolling Stones, I hear the [16:25] whoever, and you go, okay, that's fine. [16:28] But when I heard hardcore music for the [16:31] first time, when I heard the Cromax, [16:33] when I heard Agnostic Front, when I [16:34] heard the Bad Brains, I thought it was [16:36] that was just like it was part of me [16:39] already. I'm like a kid living in the [16:41] woods in Connecticut. I I'm just kind of [16:44] hearing what I'm hearing. Listen to the [16:46] lyrics. Listen to the lyrics of Minor [16:48] Threat. Listen to the lyrics. and you [16:49] go, "Okay, this stuff, I agree with this [16:51] stuff." And I I just think that that [16:54] kind of set a datam in my head of being [16:58] okay with being outside, being okay with [17:00] saying no, being okay with being a [17:02] rebel, being okay with not going along [17:06] with what everyone else is doing. That [17:08] became very important when I was in the [17:10] military and I looked at what leadership [17:14] might be telling me to do and might [17:16] think to myself, "Hey, that doesn't seem [17:17] like a good idea." and having the the [17:19] wherewithal to say, "Hey boss, I'm not [17:21] sure this is a good idea." Not to be a [17:22] jerk about it, but just to say, "There [17:24] might be a better way to get this done. [17:25] What do you think of this?" Or, "Hey, [17:26] boss, can I ask you a question about [17:27] that?" So, I I think if I had to trace [17:30] it back, you know, having Black Flag My [17:33] War side 2 on my record player for like [17:35] a year and a half straight, that's going [17:38] to leave a mark, man. And I think it [17:40] left a mark on me. [17:42] >> What are your sources of motivation? [17:44] >> Well, you pro you probably heard me say [17:46] that. Mo motivation isn't something that [17:49] I am going to count on because it's just [17:53] an emotion that's going to come and go. [17:55] Just like feeling happy, you feel happy [17:57] right now, maybe you won't feel happy in [17:58] 15 minutes. You feel sad now, maybe you [18:00] won't feel sad in 15 minutes. Feel [18:02] motivated right now, you might not feel [18:03] motivated in 15 minutes. Therefore, I [18:05] can't rely on it. So, I'm not going to [18:07] put any money on just being motivated [18:11] because it doesn't really matter to me. [18:13] So the daily [18:16] actions that I take aren't from [18:18] motivation. They're they're just from [18:20] discipline. Like like I said earlier, [18:21] I'm not going to get up and go through [18:23] some big debate about well really do I [18:26] really feel like doing this? No, I don't [18:28] feel like doing but it doesn't matter so [18:29] I'm just going to go do it. You [18:32] particular have said several times [18:33] today, rather than looking for sources [18:35] of things outside you like a job or a [18:37] relationship, which are all great um but [18:39] as sources of energy or motivation or [18:41] inspiration to use action as a positive [18:43] action as a source of energy. [18:45] >> Yeah. And and positive action is when [18:48] you have to contend with something when [18:49] there's something that you're afraid of, [18:50] right? Step into it, move towards it. [18:53] You don't solve problems by running away [18:55] from them. You solve them by moving [18:57] towards them and figuring out what's [18:59] going on. Then we could go down the [19:01] whole path of talking about the indirect [19:03] approach which is a theory of combat [19:07] which I completely believe in but it [19:09] also applies to you know interacting [19:12] with other people. If you have a problem [19:13] with some other person to think to [19:15] myself, well I got I got a problem with [19:16] Andrew. I'm going to go confront him on [19:18] it. And that might not be the best [19:20] solution. In fact, it's probably not the [19:22] best solution for me to go confront you [19:23] with the problem because now we're going [19:24] to have a confrontation. it might be [19:26] better for me to take an indirect [19:28] approach and not confront you, but [19:30] instead engage in a conversation with [19:31] you about something that's maybe [19:33] adjacent to the problem that I have. And [19:36] then eventually that builds our [19:37] relationship to a point where you start [19:39] to recognize, oh, I bet Joo feels [19:41] something about this thing. And we can [19:43] move towards a solution instead of me [19:45] trying to punch you in the face with [19:48] some truth that I believe versus the [19:50] truth that you believe. And now we're [19:51] engaged in combat and that's bad. [19:54] There's going to be casualties. I'd [19:55] rather take an indirect approach and [19:57] build a relationship where we can solve [19:59] problems in a more positive way. [20:00] >> I also heard you say something earlier [20:02] that's still flagging in my mind, which [20:04] is, you know, not thinking too much. And [20:07] you've talked about third personing of [20:09] the self. I'd love to talk a little bit [20:10] more about this even though it's a topic [20:11] you've delved into before. And in [20:13] particular, the topic of meditation. Do [20:16] you meditate? And if you don't do a kind [20:18] of standard meditation, are there times [20:20] throughout your day and your routine and [20:21] your week where as I'm describing this, [20:24] it maps to something that kind of feels [20:26] like open monitoring or focused [20:28] meditation? [20:29] >> Yeah. So, no, I don't meditate. I [20:32] haven't ever I don't think I've ever [20:33] actually meditated for one second in my [20:35] life. And I I I've never tried to do it. [20:38] That being said, if the goal is to take [20:42] a step back and detach from what's going [20:44] on, I do that all day every day. And so, [20:47] you know, that's that is something that [20:49] I've talked about and it's something I [20:51] tried to teach, you know, I tried to [20:52] teach the young SEAL leaders not to get [20:55] caught up in what's happening right in [20:57] front of them, but to take a step back, [20:59] detach from the situation, detach from [21:01] their emotions on the battlefield. I [21:03] want people to be able to see more [21:04] angles, more maneuvers, more [21:07] opportunities, more of what the enemy [21:09] might do, more perspective. And it goes [21:11] to what I was saying earlier about the [21:12] mob. Being able to be part of a team, [21:14] part of the mob, part of the gang, but [21:16] still have the ability to take a step [21:17] back, detach from that, and assess what [21:20] is the best way for this team to move [21:23] forward to me is the true superpower of [21:27] life. And you know, this goes back to [21:29] when you start talking about people that [21:31] are having [21:33] going through struggles in life, right? [21:35] And I've described this before as, you [21:38] know, if I'm looking at you and you're [21:40] you're in a bad state, right? You're [21:43] depressed, you're sad, you're moping [21:45] around, you're not getting anything [21:46] done, [21:48] and I'm looking at you from the outside [21:50] and and I'm thinking, for me, I see this [21:53] storm cloud around your head. All you [21:55] see, no matter what direction you look, [21:57] is storm. All you see is darkness. I'm [22:00] outside and I'm looking. I'm like, "Hey [22:01] man, this guy's got a great education. [22:03] He's healthy. He's got a good team [22:05] around him. Like, he's got all these [22:06] things going for him." But you in that [22:09] state, you literally cannot see anything [22:13] but the darkness of the storm. And [22:15] that's what's so scary about when people [22:19] enter that mode is you can look I can [22:21] look at it from the outside and be like [22:23] Andrew you just got to move like four [22:25] feet forward and you're going to be [22:26] through this thing and yet you're you [22:29] might hear me say that and you go no [22:30] Jaco I'm looking ahead there's nothing [22:32] but darkness. So helping people move [22:35] forward, take action, and be able to get [22:38] that perspective, detach and get outside [22:40] themselves, get outside their own heads. [22:43] You know, Tim Ferrris said, "Get out of [22:44] your head, get into your body." That's [22:45] one way to do it. Take action, go do [22:48] things. It's very scary. And I'm sure [22:49] you've had this experience where you're [22:50] talking to someone that you know, and [22:52] you're looking at them going, "Hey, man. [22:54] No, it's going to be okay." Like, you [22:56] can clearly see that whatever they're [22:58] whatever is bothering them and dragging [23:00] them. You can clearly see, you know, a [23:02] lot of times it's a relationship, right? [23:04] The the girl or the guy, they got they [23:06] got dumped and you go, "Hey, man, that [23:08] person was a disaster anyways. You're [23:10] better off without them and they cannot [23:12] compute that. They are stuck there." Or [23:14] maybe it's the school that they didn't [23:16] get into or the job that they didn't get [23:18] and they get so wrapped up in that they [23:20] can't they can't get out of that storm. [23:22] It's such a helpless feeling. And that's [23:25] why trying to engage with people and [23:26] trying to give people that superpower of [23:28] detachment where they can take a step [23:29] back and say, "You know what? You're [23:31] right, man. That that girl, [23:33] she wasn't who I really thought she was. [23:35] I should move on." Yes. The solution to [23:37] your problem is not going to be found in [23:40] the problem. It's not going to be found [23:41] in there. You have to get out of the [23:43] problem so that you can look at it, make [23:45] an assessment, and you can assess how to [23:47] solve the problem or whether you need to [23:49] solve the problem or not. So detachment [23:52] is a superpower. [23:54] What is your process for engaging [23:56] detachment or for disengaging? [23:58] >> I recognized like in a moment what [24:01] detachment was and how helpful it was on [24:04] an oil rig doing a training mission. My [24:07] whole platoon is in a skirmish line [24:10] looking at a a large area of the oil rig [24:13] that we're supposed to be clearing. [24:15] Again, this is not combat. This is in [24:16] the '9s. There's nothing going on. We're [24:17] just doing training. And I'm standing in [24:20] this skirmish line. And by the way, I'm [24:22] the youngest and most junior guy in my [24:23] platoon. And I'm standing there looking [24:25] down the sight of my weapon. And I'm [24:28] waiting for someone to make a call and [24:29] tell us what to do. And I wait for 5 [24:31] seconds. And I wait for 10 seconds. And [24:33] I wait for 20 seconds. And no one's [24:34] saying anything. And we're waiting for a [24:36] leader in my platoon to to make a call, [24:39] to tell us what to do, to tell me what [24:40] to do. And finally, after like 30 [24:43] seconds, which seems like an eternity, I [24:46] can't take it anymore. I take a step off [24:48] the skirmish line. I look to my left. I [24:50] look to my right. And what I see is [24:52] every other guy in my platoon is staring [24:54] down their weapon, which means their [24:56] field of view is tiny. It's like a 20 [24:59] degree field of view. You're looking [25:00] down the the the scope of your weapon or [25:02] the sight of your weapon. And that's how [25:04] big their field of view is. And I'm [25:05] looking and I'm thinking, "Oh, there's [25:07] my platoon commander. He's looking down [25:08] the scope the sight of his weapon. [25:10] There's my platoon chief. He's looking [25:11] down the side of his weapon. There's my [25:12] leading petty officer. He's looking down [25:13] the side of his weapon. There's my [25:14] assistant platoon commander. He's [25:15] looking down the So, everyone in the [25:17] platoon is looking down the side of [25:18] their weapon, which means they all have [25:20] a very narrow field of vision. Well, [25:25] when I take a step back and look to my [25:26] left and look to my right, guess what [25:28] kind of field of vision I got? I got a [25:29] massive one. I can see the whole scene [25:31] and I can see exactly what it is we need [25:34] to do. Look, as a new guy, you need to [25:36] keep your mouth shut. You don't say [25:37] anything. And I'm thinking, well, but no [25:40] one else is saying anything. So, I [25:43] muster up all the courage I can and I [25:46] open my mouth and I say, "Hold left, [25:48] clear right." Which is a basic tactical [25:50] call. This is not a patent level genius [25:52] maneuver. It's just a normal call to [25:54] make in a situation that we were in. I [25:56] say, "Hold left, clear right." And I'm [25:58] expecting to get kind of slapped, told, [26:00] "Shut up, new guy." But instead, [26:02] everyone just repeats the call. Hold [26:03] left, clear right. Hold left, clear [26:04] right. We get to the the top of the oil [26:06] rig, which means we cleared the whole [26:07] thing. We're on the Hilo deck at the [26:09] top, and we go into a debrief. And now [26:11] I'm expecting, okay, now I'm going to [26:12] get told, "Hey, what were you doing? You [26:14] need to keep your mouth shut." And [26:16] instead, the platoon chief goes, "Hey, [26:17] Jono, good call on the seller deck down [26:21] there." And I was kind of like, "Yeah, [26:23] that's right." But then I thought to [26:25] myself, hold on a second. If I'm the [26:27] youngest, most junior guy in this [26:28] platoon, why was I able to see what we [26:30] needed to do and make that call? Why did [26:32] that why did that just happen? And then [26:34] I realized it was cuz I took took a step [26:36] back. I broadened my field of view which [26:39] allowed me to think more clearly because [26:42] instead of being hyperfocused and [26:43] narrowly focused, I broadened my range [26:45] of vision. I took a breath before I made [26:48] my call, right? I had to take my take a [26:50] a nice breath to speak clearly and I [26:53] realized that taking a step back and [26:55] detaching, [26:57] I got to see infinitely more than even [26:59] the most experienced guys in my platoon. [27:02] And I started doing it all the time. I [27:04] mean, I started doing it in land [27:06] warfare. I started doing it in urban [27:07] combat. I started doing it in all these [27:09] tactical training scenarios. These are [27:11] just training. This is the '90s. I [27:12] started doing these training scenarios [27:13] and it always allowed me to see what we [27:17] needed to do. Then I started doing it [27:19] like when I was having conversations [27:20] with people. I'm having a conversation [27:21] with my platoon chief and I can see that [27:23] he's starting to turn a little red in [27:24] the face and, you know, we're we're [27:26] about to argue about something. I said, [27:27] "Oh, wait a second. I'm taking a step [27:28] back looking. He's getting mad right [27:30] now." And he's the platoon chief. And I [27:31] say, "Hey, you know what, Chief? That [27:32] sounds good. let me go take a re let me [27:34] go reook at the plan or whatever. And so [27:36] I started to do this kind of with my [27:40] normal life was to not get wrapped up in [27:42] my own emotions, not get wrapped up in [27:44] the the the gunfight that was happening [27:46] right in front of my face, not to get [27:48] wrapped up in the details of what was [27:50] going on, but instead take a step back, [27:54] detach, look around, and then you can [27:57] make a much much better decision. Now [27:59] listen, if you are the only person in a [28:01] gunfight, it's going to be harder for [28:03] you to do that because you got to be [28:04] focused on whatever you're shooting at. [28:05] But when you have 16 guys or 20 guys, [28:08] they're all looking in the same [28:09] direction. It's very easy to be the guy [28:10] that goes, "I want to take a step back. [28:12] Look around, make a call." When I teach [28:15] this to people now, the mechanics of it, [28:19] take a step back. Literally, you're, you [28:21] know, you and I are at a meeting, [28:22] there's a bunch of people, this starts [28:24] to get heated argument. I will literally [28:26] push my chair back away from the table. [28:28] change my perspective. Perspective open [28:32] widen my field of view. The other thing [28:34] like in the SEAL teams, you don't want [28:35] to sound panicked on the radio for a [28:38] couple reasons. Number one, because when [28:40] you panic on the radio, it's going to [28:41] cause other people to panic. Number two, [28:42] if you panic on the radio and you sound [28:44] panicked, everyone's going to make fun [28:44] of you. So, what would I do before I [28:47] would key up my radio? [28:49] Take a breath. And so, here I'm manually [28:53] slowing down my breath. I'm broadening [28:55] my field of view. So, if you're in a [28:58] meeting or you're in a, you know, you're [29:00] at the at the supermarket parking lot [29:02] and someone starts to yell at you, take [29:05] a step back, take a breath, broaden your [29:08] field of view, detach from those [29:10] emotions that you're having, and make [29:12] some space. And I'll tell you, here's [29:14] another like weird little nuance thing. [29:19] Lift your chin up and put your hands [29:21] down. When I get defensive, what am I [29:23] going to do? I'm going to raise my hands [29:24] up and put my chin down. That's like a [29:26] fighting mode. So, if you and I are [29:27] having a discussion and I'm starting to [29:29] get heated and I'm starting to like, [29:30] "Oh, he's not listening to me." Instead [29:32] of me putting my chin down and and [29:35] putting my hands like up up to where I [29:37] can put them in your face a little bit. [29:39] No, I'm actually going to take a step [29:40] back. I'm going say, "Put my chin up." [29:42] It changes my perspective a little bit [29:44] more. Changes my visual perspective just [29:46] by changing the angle of my head. Take a [29:48] step back. Put my hands down. I'm not [29:50] being in a defensive mood. I actually [29:51] want to hear what you have to say. And [29:54] if I start listening to what you have to [29:56] say and not talking, it's very hard to [29:58] be detached when you're talking. It's [30:00] another key component. You want to [30:02] detach, shut your mouth. I'm in a [30:04] meeting in my companies. I'm not the one [30:06] that's doing all the talking. In fact, [30:07] I'm doing mostly listening. And that [30:09] way, I'm detached. I'm listening to what [30:11] they have to say. I'm more capable of [30:14] seeing what holes there are in their [30:17] plans by not moving my mouth, not [30:20] talking. I'm listening. So those are [30:23] some of the methodologies that I use and [30:25] that I advise people to use in order to [30:28] effectively start down the pathway of [30:31] being able to detach in various [30:33] scenarios. It applies to everything that [30:35] we do. If you're having a conversation [30:37] with your significant other and you [30:39] start to see that they're getting [30:42] frustrated about something, now look, if [30:44] you're in the conversation 100%, you're [30:47] going to get frustrated too. You're [30:49] going to get frustrated that they're [30:50] frustrated. Next thing you know, you've [30:51] got a you've got an emotional argument [30:53] going on. Whereas, if you take take a [30:56] mental step back and say, "Wait a why [30:57] are they frustrated right now?" Oh, [31:00] because I'm trying to solve their [31:02] problem when really what they're looking [31:03] to do is vent. Okay, got it. Let them [31:05] vent. Okay, cool. Oh, that sounds [31:07] horrible. H, you know, what do you think [31:09] you're going to do? Instead of saying, [31:10] "Well, if that's the problem, here's [31:11] what you should do." Because people are [31:13] always looking for that. So, yeah, this [31:14] this thing, this ability is and it's [31:16] something that can absolutely be trained [31:18] and that's what's cool about it. can [31:20] absolutely be trained. It's not a [31:22] natural gift. It's it's some people will [31:25] be better at it than others, but it's [31:27] something that you can train. And I used [31:29] to see guys develop it and I see people [31:30] develop it now in the business world. [31:32] >> Do you think there's value to doing [31:34] things each day that suck a little bit [31:37] or from time to time doing something [31:39] that's, you know, puts one into a state [31:41] of deliberate uh discomfort. [31:43] >> 100%. I mean even you in order to [31:45] improve yourself, you gota you got to [31:47] impose some discipline on yourself, [31:49] right? Just like you would develop your [31:52] legs by doing squats and you would [31:54] develop your back by doing pull-ups, I [31:56] think you would develop your resiliency [31:58] by doing repetitions of things that [32:01] require you to be tougher. I just want [32:04] to extend an enormous thank you. Um, you [32:07] know, as a civilian, thank you for the [32:09] work you did in the military, but also [32:10] teaching people about the military. I [32:12] think a lot of people don't realize what [32:14] it's about at any level and learning [32:16] about your experience there and what [32:17] you've observed, bringing other people's [32:20] experiences from the military more [32:21] broadly is super important and sharing [32:24] this and being able to entertain some of [32:25] my um scientific riffs. So, thank you. [32:28] Thank you. Thank you. [32:30] >> There's plenty of people that have done [32:32] way more than I've ever done and and [32:34] sacrificed infinitely more than I ever [32:37] sacrificed. So, I'm um thankful for [32:41] being here. I know that you uh put all [32:44] kinds of information and I the same back [32:46] at you. You know, I I have greatly [32:48] benefited from the information that you [32:50] put out and so I thank you as well and [32:53] uh appreciate coming on here and [32:55] appreciate you spreading the word about [32:57] how people can be better yourself. So, [32:59] thanks for having me. I appreciate it, [33:01] man. Let's do it again.