Uber CEO Khosrowshahi Sees AI Replacing Human Drivers Over 20 Years

Uber CEO Khosrowshahi预计未来20年AI将取代人类司机 技术的指数级普及将使全球网约车车队实现全面自动化，而眼下的AI整合正在扩大软件开发与动态运营规模。 在这次深度访谈中，Dara Khosrowshahi详细讲述了他从并购交易操盘手到掌舵Expedia和Uber等科技巨头的转型历程。他分享了采取“战时”领导策略、推行彻底的企业透明度，以及通过整合传统出租车和把握指数级增长机遇推动Uber实现运营盈利的心得。展望未来，Khosrowshahi阐述了AI如何正在重塑Uber的工程与运营体系，并预计在未来二十年中，行业将发生向自动驾驶车队和软件代理的大规模转变。 Uber 首席执行官达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）带领公司完成了关键的财务转型，将其从每年亏损近 30 亿美元扭转为年自由现金流高达 85 亿至 98 亿美元，目前平台在全球拥有超过 950 万名活跃司机与派送员。 (0:00) 结合焦文斯悖论（Jevons Paradox），科斯罗萨西指出当网约车变得更高效、便宜且便捷时，出行总需求并未受限，反而呈指数级爆发式增长，一举打破了传统出租车市场的规模天花板。 (32:52) 在企业重塑过程中，他主张实行彻底的透明度并打破中层信息过滤，直接倾听基层工程师的声音，并重构核心企业价值观，用“做正确的事（Do the right thing, period）”取代被武器化的企业口号以根除懈怠与恶性内卷。 (39:48) 科斯罗萨西强调，极致的勤奋与自律是无法被轻易教会的立身之本，高绩效组织必须以翻倍的执行速度“拥抱磨砺”，通过更密集的试错与数据反馈保持敏捷进化。 (51:02)

Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi argues that enduring organizational success requires relentless operational discipline, direct transparency, and adapting quickly to exponential technology curves. Reflecting on turning Uber profitable, he projects that autonomous vehicles and AI will inevitably replace millions of driving jobs over the next two decades, leaving society facing an unresolved crisis of workforce retraining and human purpose. Insecurity, Stoicism, and Systems-Driven Leadership (5:24) Khosrowshahi traces his intense work ethic to his childhood escape from the 1978 Iranian Revolution, where his family lost their industrial business and fled to the United States after gunfire penetrated their living room. He notes that the sudden loss instilled an underlying feeling of insecurity, creating an enduring paranoia against complacency. Observing his father struggle without purpose after being trapped in Iran for six years reinforced his belief that productive work is essential for dignity and self-worth. Educated in bioelectrical engineering at Brown University, Khosrowshahi approaches corporate leadership as a complex engineering problem. Rather than viewing management as abstract theory, he conceptualizes companies as operational machines governed by feedback loops and incentives, where an executive's role is to systematically diagnose broken workflows and structure teams to solve non-routine problems. Cultural Realignment and Radical Operational Directness (62:44) Drawing from mentor Barry Diller's mandate to face defeat directly without public relations spin, Khosrowshahi prioritizes radical directness to counter the tendency of middle management to sanitize bad news. During his 12 years leading Expedia, he replaced complacent teams to grow revenue from $2.1 billion to $8.8 billion. Upon taking over Uber, he shifted the company from an annual loss of $2.5–$3 billion to generating up to $9.8 billion in annual free cash flow. Central to this turnaround was dismantling Uber's combative workplace norms. Khosrowshahi eliminated weaponized concepts like "toe stepping" in favor of clear guidelines, anchored by the mandate to "Do the right thing, period." Countering long-standing internal resistance, he also approved the integration of traditional taxis onto the Uber platform, converting a former adversary into Uber's fastest-growing business segment. Platform Scaling Under Jevons Paradox (32:52) Khosrowshahi explains that conventional forecasting repeatedly undervalues disruptive platforms because human analysts model growth linearly, whereas technology adoption curves compound exponentially. In digital marketplace acquisitions, his teams intentionally overpaid relative to contemporary metrics for early category leaders that executed faster than their competitors. Uber's expansion reflects Jevons Paradox, an economic principle where making a service dramatically cheaper and more convenient expands total market consumption rather than just displacing existing volume. By pairing mobile networks with on-demand dispatch, Uber transcended the limited addressable market of premium black cars and local taxis, scaling into a global transportation infrastructure that handles over 40 million trips daily. Automation Timelines and Massive Driver Displacement (83:44) While Uber already relies on localized AI models for dispatch, routing, and pricing, Khosrowshahi anticipates severe labor disruption ahead. He projects that cognitive roles face 70% to 80% automation within a decade, and Uber's software engineering will shift toward orchestrating autonomous agents, likely capping developer hiring within five years. For physical transport, autonomous vehicles—which statistically outperform human safety by eliminating common driving errors responsible for over one million global deaths annually—are projected to fulfill the vast majority of trips within 15 to 20 years. This shift directly challenges the future of Uber's 9.5 million active drivers and couriers. While Uber is testing transitional micro-work through "Uber AI Solutions" for data labeling, Khosrowshahi questions whether job creation can match the pace of automation. He also rejects Universal Basic Income, arguing that government stipends fail to provide the psychological fulfillment, identity, and personal agency generated by active participation in the workforce. Khosrowshahi warns that stalling automation through protectionist regulation will simply cause Western economies to fall behind foreign competitors, yet governments currently lack scalable retraining programs to re-skill millions of displaced drivers and knowledge workers. In an unpredictable economic landscape, he advises professionals to abandon rigid career plans that restrict curiosity, urging them instead to cultivate adaptable problem-solving skills and relentless execution.

Uber首席执行官Dara Khosrowshahi在访谈中回顾了其由流亡经历塑造的危机意识与系统工程化管理哲学，并坦言虽然人工智能与自动驾驶将在未来15至20年内深刻颠覆包括Uber旗下950万名司机与派送员在内的全球劳动力结构，但企业与个人只能通过保持敏捷、极端坦诚和持续进化来应对技术洗礼。 早年流亡创伤与危机驱动的职业韧性 (3:33) Khosrowshahi的危机感始于童年家庭变故。1978年伊朗伊斯兰革命爆发前，他的家族在当地建立了大型工业制造集团，但政局突变导致其资产被剥夺殆尽。在遭遇流弹击穿自家客厅玻璃后，9岁的Khosrowshahi随母亲逃难至美国纽约州塔里敦重新白手起家，而其父亲因照料长辈被困伊朗长达6年，归国时健康已受到严重摧残。这种一夜之间失去一切的创伤经历，使他形成了“永远没有绝对安全感”的心态与终身挥之不去的偏执感，但也促使他坚信唯有不自满、不抱怨的坚毅态度与加倍努力，才能在剧烈波动的环境中生存。 从工程思维到彻底坦诚的运营重塑 (17:28) 拥有布朗大学生物电气工程背景的Khosrowshahi将企业管理视作复杂的工程系统优化问题。早年在投资银行Allen & Company任职期间，他确立了“看重人才与品格胜过看重企业本身”的信条；在媒体大亨Barry Diller麾下工作并执掌Expedia的12年间，他更是学会了迅速直面失败（如Diller竞标派拉蒙失败后所奉行的“他们赢了，我们输了，下一个”态度）以及跨越层级获取真相的“彻底坦诚”。在接掌陷入文化与财务泥潭的Uber后，他剔除了被滥用为恶性竞争借口的旧价值观，确立了“无论如何，做正确的事”等底线准则，通过鼓励团队承担明智风险、打破官僚层级滤镜，并将传统出租车整合为公司增速最快的业务板块，最终将Uber从年亏损25亿至30亿美元扭转为年产生自由现金流85亿至98亿美元的运营实体。 技术非线性跃迁与规模扩张的杰文斯悖论 (32:52) 在梳理数字化浪潮与Uber崛起时，Khosrowshahi指出多数人习惯于用线性思维预测趋势，但新技术的渗透与业务势头呈指数级增长。他以经济学中的“杰文斯悖论”（Jevons Paradox）解释了Uber的扩张逻辑：早先市场怀疑者仅将网约车市场局限于数十亿美元的传统出租车或高档黑车替代品，却忽视了当出行服务变得极其廉价、高效且便捷时，全社会的整体需求会呈爆发式膨胀。正是凭借智能手机普及的历史契机与早期管理层在全球范围内的“闪电式扩张”，Uber将日常撮合规模推升至每日4000万次行程，并依靠庞大的本地化AI模型实时处理定价、路线规划与订单拼单。 AI自动化浪潮与全球950万劳动力的未来 (73:54) 谈及人工智能与自动化技术的前景，Khosrowshahi指出Uber目前高度依赖AI工具辅助研发，约90%的工程师正在使用AI，他预测在未来5年内Uber可能不再单纯增加软件工程师的员工人数，而是通过采购GPU和部署AI智能体来扩展工程产能。针对宏观社会分工，他预测AI在未来10年内有能力自动化70%至80%的白领认知类工作；而在物理交通领域，尽管受限于硬件、供应链与政策监管，他认为未来15至20年内绝大多数运输行程将由无人驾驶汽车（如Waymo等）与机器人接管。虽然这项转变能显著减少每年全球逾百万起交通事故致死惨剧，但这也意味着Uber平台上的950万名司机与快递员将面临长期的岗位重塑。他持怀疑态度看待全民基本收入（UBI）方案，认为无目标的金钱补助无法弥补工作所赋予人类的尊严感与价值感，各国当前最紧迫的瓶颈在于缺乏可大规模扩展的劳动力再培训机制。 摒弃僵化规划与以开放姿态捕捉机遇 面对加速演进的未来，Khosrowshahi反对年轻人制定刻板、功利的多年度职业晋升蓝图。他回顾自己最初拒绝接任Uber CEO的邀请，最终在Spotify创始人Daniel Ek关于“人生不仅仅关乎快乐，更关乎创造影响力”的当头棒喝下，以及其父“当一家名字已经变成日常动词的企业邀请你执掌时，你只能答应”的建议下做出了重大职业转向。他主张在试图改变世界之前，先保持谦逊并“让世界改变自己”，将好奇心、极端的努力以及敏锐捕捉意外机遇的开放心态，作为抵御时代剧变的根本支柱。 本访谈展现了科技巨头掌舵人在企业扭亏与面对颠覆性技术浪潮时的战略定力。然而，如何在未来十余年内平衡无人驾驶技术的必然普及与全球数百万计平台劳动者的生计替代，乃至社会层面如何建立行之有效的再就业培训网络，依然是尚未解决的深层系统性挑战。

## Background 本期内容由知名播客频道 The Diary Of A CEO 于 2026 年 2 月 23 日发布在 YouTube 平台。节目对 Uber 现任首席执行官达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）进行了深度专访，页面简介指出，达拉在对话中揭示了自动驾驶汽车的发展前景、他如何带领 Uber 实现财务逆转扭亏为盈、1978 年随家人逃离伊朗的动荡经历，以及面对 AI 和自动化浪潮对数百万就业岗位冲击的真实看法。 ## TL;DR 达拉·科斯罗萨西回顾了自己从伊朗流亡难民成长为执掌数千亿美元巨头的非凡历程，详细拆解了童年创伤如何塑造其“永不自满”的危机感与极致拼搏的斯多葛式领导风格。他深入复盘了自己从投行并购精英跨界成为实操型操盘手、带领 Expedia 和 Uber 逆境翻盘的硬核管理策略，强调以“极度透明”打破企业信息茧房，并用“拥抱磨砺”构建高速迭代的组织机器。面对人工智能与自动驾驶的席卷，达拉直面行业颠覆的残酷真相：在承认未来 10 到 20 年内 950 万司机乃至绝大部分脑力和体力工作将遭遇自动化重构的同时，他呼吁社会建立规模化转岗再培训机制，并告诫年轻人保持开放好奇、切勿过度规划人生。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在深沉内敛与雷厉风行之间自如切换，彻底褪去了传统跨国企业 CEO 常见的公关辞令与滤镜伪装，呈现出罕见的赤诚与血性。当达拉谈及童年枪林弹雨中流亡美国的经历，以及父亲被困伊朗六年、归来后衰老并最终离世的遗憾时，现场数度陷入停顿与动容抽泣，流淌着深切的情感共鸣；而当话题转向商业攻坚与文化重塑时，他又展现出顶级掌舵人冷峻、果断且极具穿透力的进攻姿态。主持人史蒂芬细腻而敏锐的追问与达拉直言不讳的坦荡作风相得益彰，让整期节目既像是一部波澜壮阔的流亡者奋斗史诗，又是一堂充满刀刃向内反思的硬核商业实战课。 ## Bulletin - [57:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3468s) Uber 实现了极其强劲的财务大逆转，从达拉·科斯罗萨西接手时年亏损近 30 亿美元，转变到过去一年产生约 98 亿美元自由现金流；全平台日均处理超过 4000 万次行程，底层全部依托数千个针对局部现实问题微调的专用 AI 模型协同调度。 - [01:16:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4576s) 达拉预言在未来 10 年内，AI 有能力替代 70% 到 80% 的智力脑力工作，而物理自动化由于硬件制造业与资本投入限制需 15 至 20 年；Uber 平台上的 950 万名司机与配送员长期将面临自动驾驶汽车的替代，公司正试水拓展本地代购与 AI 数据训练工种以延缓冲击。 - [01:18:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4695s) AI 深度重塑技术研发：Uber 内部已有 90% 的软件工程师采用 AI 工具编排系统，30% 的超级用户效能大幅飙升；达拉预计公司在 5 年后可能停止增加工程人员编制，将预算直接转投于采购 GPU 算力与 AI Agent 智能体。 - [01:09:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4171s) 打破行业对抗的逆向创新：Uber 颠覆早期与传统出租车针锋相对的立足点，主动将全球传统出租车接入平台网络，该板块如今已逆势成长为 Uber 内部增速最迅猛的业务引擎之一。 ## Key takeaways - [05:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=324s) 童年逃离伊朗伊斯兰革命并失去一切的创伤经历，在达拉心中埋下了深层的不安全感；那种“脚下地毯随时可能被抽走”的危机意识，促成了其永不自满、极度坚毅且持续构建的商业领导力。 - [16:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=964s) 工程学思维将商业组织视为一台由人驱动的精密机器；CEO 的核心职责是搭建内部架构、将可重复的事务逐步自动化以释放人力，并在启动系统前设定精准的演进目标。 - [20:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1248s) 秉承“永远押注于人”的投资与管理哲学，达拉推崇坦然直面挫折的务实作风——像巴里·迪勒那样敢于承认“他们赢了，我们输了，下一个”，拒绝掩盖失败或陷入过度复盘的内耗。 - [26:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1608s) 敏锐捕获商业向线上迁移的划时代红利：避开亚马逊专精的实体履约与仓储重资产模式，专注下注交友、票务、在线旅游等高价值虚拟服务，利用零摩擦网络实现“曲棍球棒”式的指数级爆发。 - [32:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1972s) 杰文斯悖论在出行领域的验证：当服务变得极度高效、随叫随到且廉价时，市场上限被彻底打破，Uber 激发的真实出行需求规模远远超出了原先传统黑车与出租车存量的总和。 - [43:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=2581s) 穿透科层制的激进透明度：管理者必须越过层层修饰汇报的中间管理层，随机直连一线基层工程师获取高保真信息；以最赤裸的真相沟通，不仅能防止错误决策，还能自然筛选掉抗压弱的人才。 - [50:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3059s) “学会极致努力”是一门具备长远复利的关键技能；在天赋差距面前，永不被他人超越的勤勉与自律能够构建极高壁垒，“拥抱磨砺”（Embrace the grind）构成了 Uber 绝不混日子的狼性文化内核。 - [01:02:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3765s) 企业价值观必须自然浮现而非流于公关套话：Uber 摒弃了平庸且被武器化的陈旧准则，提炼出“Do the right thing, period.”（做正确的事，毋庸置疑）以及“Go Get It”（全力以赴），以此明晰安全底线与进攻姿态。 - [01:21:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4876s) 大语言模型（LLM）的底层致命短板在于缺乏“实时学习”能力：现行模型只能依靠工程团队重新抓取数据与版本迭代，只有当 AI 具备像人类一样在现实交互中即时微调认知时，才会构成彻底的替代危机。 - [01:23:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5024s) 自动驾驶将大幅削减全美乃至全球数以万计的车祸死亡，具备极高的人道价值；但面对自动化速度对劳动力的双重颠覆，全社会亟需集中资源打造规模化的转岗再培训机制以抵御失业冲击。 - [01:28:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5302s) 全民基本收入（UBI）无法拯救社会的心灵危机：人在克服现实困难与工作创造中获得成就感并建立自我价值，纯粹靠政府发钱无法替代维持家庭尊严与生命意义的内在动力。 - [01:30:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5452s) 抛弃企业高管常用的公关面具与套话：在公众对话中直面最棘手、最糟糕的问题并诚实作答，这种不扯淡（No BS）的坦诚风格是商业领袖在剧变时代构建深度信任的最强基石。 - [01:36:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5761s) 切忌过度规划人生：严密的职业规划容易让人丧失对未知的敏锐度并陷入确认偏差陷阱；年轻人应当保持极度好奇，“在改变世界之前，先让世界改变你”，顺应时代抓住偶然机遇。 - [01:37:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5849s) 接掌 Uber 的关键抉择：受 Spotify 创始人丹尼尔·埃克“人生的意义在于创造影响力而非追求安逸快乐”的点醒，叠加父亲“当名字已变成行业动词的公司召唤你时只需答应”的建议，达拉毅然奔赴风暴中心。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=0s) 预告篇：从巨额亏损到自由现金流，以及 AI 对数百万司机的冲击 访谈在达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）强硬且直接的管理哲学中拉开序幕。他直言不讳地指出，来到 Uber 就必须拼尽全力工作（"work your ass off"），如果表现未达预期，管理层会毫不留情地直言告知。当被问及是否担心员工无法承受这种残酷真相时，他的回答干脆利落：“那他们可以离开。”在达拉看来，人生最重要的技能就是刻苦拼搏，无论是克里斯蒂亚诺·罗纳尔多（C罗）还是迈克尔·乔丹，顶尖运动员固然天赋异禀，但真正拉开差距的在于他们近乎疯狂的后天努力。“别人可能比我聪明、比我有天赋，但我绝不会允许任何人在努力程度上超越我。”正是凭借这种坚韧，他接手 Uber 时公司每年亏损高达 30 亿美元，而如今已能实现每年超 85 亿美元的自由现金流。 这种不知疲倦的顽强特质，源于他童年经历的剧烈动荡。1978 年伊朗伊斯兰革命爆发，达拉一家瞬间丧失了安全感，革命卫队闯入后院开枪，子弹甚至击穿了客厅的玻璃窗。年仅八九岁的他随家人流亡美国白手起家。回忆起这一切对父亲精神上的沉重打击，达拉在镜头前一度哽咽停顿、难以自抑。此后，他修读了生物电气工程（Bioelectrical Engineering），随后进入投资银行界观察大型企业的建立逻辑，并在之后执掌 Expedia 长达 12 年，将公司营收从 21 亿美元推升至 88 亿美元，成为当时全美薪酬最高的科技公司 CEO。然而，他放下一切转战风口浪尖上的 Uber。面对当下 AI 技术的呼啸而来，他毫无保留地直面现实：在 Uber 全球 950 万名司机和配送员赖以生存的岗位面前，当自动驾驶与自动化来临，这群人究竟该何去何从。 随后，主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向观众诚挚发起呼吁：节目即将迎来重要的订阅里程碑，目前约有 69% 长期收听并喜爱节目的听众尚未点击订阅。他真切地请求大家点击免费的订阅按钮，这不仅能让制作团队共同庆祝里程碑，更能支持团队持续提升每一期节目的质量。 --- ### [02:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=169s) 并非硅谷典型精英：伊朗革命与失去一切的童年 正式对话开始时，史蒂芬向达拉表达了由衷的敬意，称赞其领导着当代最具影响力、最具话题性且市值达数千亿美元的伟大企业之一。史蒂芬坦言，在做背景调研之前，他曾下意识地预设达拉拥有硅谷精英的标准履历——在加州长大、毕业于斯坦福大学等，但事实却截然不同。他询问达拉，究竟是怎样最早期的生活经历塑造了他如今的性格底色。 达拉笑着感慨这是一个沉重却切中要害的开场。他坦言，塑造他人格与命运的核心事件，始于他在伊朗的出生与成长。彼时的伊朗正处于飞速现代化的进程中，达拉的家族在当地建立了一家规模庞大、备受尊敬的工业企业集团。然而，1978 年席卷全国的伊斯兰革命将这一切彻底摧毁。达拉的叔叔当时是刚刚被推翻的巴列维国王政府的内阁成员，全家人的处境急转直下，生命安全受到严重威胁。 他清晰地回忆起那个惊心动魄的时刻：伊朗革命卫队闯入他们家的后院搜捕邻居，混乱中枪支走火，子弹呼啸着穿透了客厅，将整面窗玻璃击得粉碎。达拉的母亲当机立断：“我们留在这里已经不安全了。”一家人被迫放弃所有基业，背井离乡逃往美国重新开始生活。达拉感慨道，这场剧变不仅深深重塑了他，也重塑了整个家族——此后数十年的所有奋斗与经济层面的重建，本质上都是在努力夺回当年在伊朗失去的一切。 --- ### [05:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=324s) “内心深处我从未感到安全”：被抽走地毯的创伤与奋斗驱动力 当史蒂芬询问这段经历是否在其商业管理中留下了不可磨灭的“指纹”时，达拉给出了一个极其深刻且坦诚的回答：“在我内心最深处，我从未真正感到过安全（At my core I never feel safe）。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 流亡创伤对商业心理的塑造 accDescr: 展示从伊朗革命财产尽失到形成永不自满、疯狂构建的商业行为逻辑链条 subgraph Trauma["早期创伤记忆"] A["1978年伊朗革命基业尽失"] B["目睹父亲失去社会价值与尊严"] end subgraph Psychology["深层心理机制"] C["核心安全感缺失<br/>随时面临脚下地毯被抽走的恐惧"] D["深刻认识到法治与产权的脆弱性"] end subgraph BusinessDrive["商业行为与领导力"] E["永不自满、绝不把拥有的一切视为理所当然"] F["不知疲倦的构建渴望与极致的抗风险韧性"] end A --> C B --> C C --> D D --> E E --> F ``` 他解释说，对于当时年幼的孩子而言，适应新环境或许并不艰难，但亲眼看着父母失去苦心经营的一切，其冲击是毁灭性的。特别是他的父亲，在那场变故中仿佛失去了自己对世界的全部价值，内在的精神世界被彻底摧垮。目睹父亲的崩溃，在达拉心中种下了极度渴望为家族重赢荣耀的种子，但同时也留下了一种永久性的危机感——那种好不容易建立起一切、脚下的地毯却随时可能被人瞬间抽走的恐惧感（"the rug pulled out of you"），自此再也没有离开过他。 达拉进一步指出，许多美国人其实低估了美国这片土地在制度理想层面的可贵之处：在这里，只要你努力建立起属于自己的事业，在法治保护下它就真正属于你，没有人能随意夺走；然而对于全球大多数人口而言，这种安全感完全是奢望。正因如此，他体内始终燃烧着一股疯狂的建设欲望，同时伴随着永远无法被满足的危机意识：“永远不要把任何事情视为理所当然，因为就在你掉以轻心的那一刻，脚下的地毯就会被彻底抽走。” --- ### [06:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=406s) 母亲的坚韧、父亲被困伊朗六年与归来时的苍老 家庭流亡美国后，命运的考验远未结束。达拉的父亲随后因故返回伊朗，却被当地扣押、长达六年无法获得离境签证。当时举家安置在纽约市以北约 45 分钟车程的塔里敦（Tarrytown），全家的重担完全落在了母亲莉莉（Lilly）一人的肩上。 达拉深情地回忆起母亲的非凡蜕变：她前半生过着优渥的生活，从未需要外出工作，但在家庭陷入绝境时，她没有丝毫退缩，毅然成为一名普通的销售员赚钱养家，完全靠一己之力撑起了整个家庭。与此同时，达拉心中始终牵挂着远隔重洋的父亲。在他童年的记忆中，父亲离去前宛如一个顶天立地的巨人；而当父亲终于脱困回到美国时，达拉已经是大学二年级的学生。 久别重逢的场景既温馨又带着深深的酸楚。父亲依然把他当成当年的小男孩，执意要开车送达拉去大学校园。到达学校后，父亲带着期待问他：“你想和我一起待会儿吗？”而年轻气盛、急于拥抱大学新学期和朋友的达拉却说：“爸，你快走吧，我想去找我的朋友们玩。”回想那一幕，达拉十分感慨于岁月与磨难对人的残酷改变——在被困伊朗的漫长岁月里，父亲饱受折磨，甚至在终于登上飞往美国的飞机上突发了心脏病。归来的父亲苍老了许多，在身心层面都显得有些萎靡。但达拉依然庆幸，在父亲离世前，他们彼此陪伴着走过了很多很多年。 --- ### [08:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=502s) 现场动容落泪：父亲的坚毅主义、诗歌与深沉的家庭之爱 史蒂芬提到一个触动人心的细节：在父亲被困伊朗的漫长岁月里，母亲莉莉曾注意到年幼的达拉几乎很少在日常中主动提及父亲；然而当父亲历经磨难真正跨入家门的那一刻，达拉却瞬间情绪崩溃、痛哭流涕。 听到这里的达拉再次被汹涌的情感击中。他低下头陷入长久的沉默与抽泣，眼眶泛红，努力克制着自己的情绪，连连对镜头致歉。史蒂芬轻声安慰他不用介意，达拉平复片刻后坦露心声：“抱歉，他几年前去世了，所以聊到这个对我来说真的很不容易。” 稍微调整呼吸后，达拉讲述了父亲的人格对他的深刻熏陶： - **深沉的坚毅主义（Stoicism）**：父亲是个极其隐忍克制的人，习惯将所有苦痛与压力深埋心底，达拉从小也被教导要以同样的方式直面困境，整个家族从不宣泄抱怨或沮丧，而是咬紧牙关去解决现实问题。达拉自嘲自己有时患有“过度坚毅症”，直到承受不住时才会偶尔失控崩溃。 - **诗意与精神交流**：尽管远隔重洋，父亲依然坚持给达拉写信，信中常写下优美的诗篇，那是父子俩在残酷岁月里独特的情感纽带。 - **对权力的谦逊态度**：父亲身居高位时极为谦和，从不认同利用手中的权势耀武扬威或向外界宣扬特权。 达拉总结道，自己的成长环境正是这种“坚毅隐忍”与“深沉爱意”的奇特结合体。此时，面对深受触动的达拉，刚刚订婚并计划孕育下一代的史蒂芬，自然而然地将话题引向了为人父母的责任与对下一代教育的深思。 ### [10:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=632s) 育儿的谦卑与放手：高质量陪伴胜过一切计划 谈到如何避免将自己身上的“斯多葛式隐忍”机械地复制给下一代时，达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）感慨为人之父是一场令人极度清醒且谦卑的修行（humbling）。很多父母在孩子出生前，脑海中往往勾勒好了极其详尽的蓝图，自以为能够完全掌控孩子的成长轨迹和性格塑造，但现实却很快打破这种幻想——孩子们最终只会长成他们自己独立的模样。起初，这往往会引发强烈的失控警报：“天啊，我正在失去控制，明明我已经规划好了一切！”但当现实生活的繁重压力袭来，人在全职工作与事业奔波中早已精疲力竭，原本百分之百的教育规划顶多只能落实 80%，剩下的 20% 充满了疲惫带来的妥协与不完美。 作为一个自认带有某种“控制狂”倾向的人，看着孩子们逐渐脱离预设轨道、迈向未知领域时，达拉最初感到十分不安。但他很快意识到，后退一步去静静欣赏这种自主生长的状态，其实是一件“无比美妙且壮观的事”（absolutely gorgeous）。他给所有父母的核心建议摒弃了那些复杂的微观管教技巧：“育儿真正的魔法，不在于你具体做了什么具体战术，而在于你向他们倾注了多少精力和时间陪伴。其余的一切你无法掌控，你唯一能抓住的，就是与他们之间建立的情感纽带。” ### [12:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=720s) 父亲的工厂与深层动机：不仅是赚钱，更是赢得尊重 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）拿出达拉童年在伦敦和伊朗的旧照，甚至包括一张四五岁时留着浓密头发、被母亲打扮成“小玩偶”样式的萌照，达拉笑着调侃当年自己还有头发，但绝不会把自己的孩子打扮成那样。史蒂芬现场播放了一段与达拉母亲莉莉（Lilly）的采访录音。母亲回忆道，达拉很小的时候就对她说，自己长大后想在世界上做一番重要的大事，“赚钱从来不是他的首要目标，带来改变才是”。达拉虽然记不清童年这句童言，但他清晰地记得童年时期一次深深烙印在脑海里的经历——去参观父亲设计、建造并负责运营的家族工厂。 那次探访彻底塑造了他对“影响力”的理解。工厂里的工人和管理人员对父亲表现出了无与伦比的由衷敬重，每个人都因父亲一家的到来而欢欣鼓舞。父亲不仅能叫出在场每一个工人的名字，而且给予每个人极大的尊重与体恤。工厂里没有下属面对大老板时的那种恐惧与战战兢兢，取而代之的是纯粹的温情与关怀。这种能够深刻影响成百上千人生活、以积极方式建立宏大事业并赢得他人由衷尊重的领导力，成了达拉一生的参照物。达拉坦承，1978 年举家逃离伊朗来到美国并失去所有家产后，赚钱在很长一段时间里确实是极其现实且迫切的第一要务，他毕业后选择去投资银行也是为了赚钱养家。但当他确认自己已经拥有足够的安全感、有能力赡养父母并为家庭提供保障之后，童年从父亲身上看到的那种建立企业、与团队深度连接的渴望，便重新占据了灵魂的核心。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 达拉·科斯罗萨西的事业动机演进路径 accDescr: 展示达拉从童年受父亲工厂熏陶，到逃离伊朗后被迫追求财务安全，再到重塑使命感追求社会影响力的过程。 subgraph Phase1["童年印记"] A["目睹父亲的工厂管理"] --> B["理解何为尊严、连接与广泛尊重"] end subgraph Phase2["生存与安全感"] C["流亡美国，家产尽失"] --> D["投身投资银行"] D --> E["赚钱养家，重构经济安全底线"] end subgraph Phase3["使命回归"] F["达成财务安全与家庭保障"] --> G["追求父亲式的领导力：打造精密机器与组织连接"] end B -.-> C E --> F ``` - **9 岁抵达纽约时的心愿**：当被问到 9 岁初到纽约时有什么人生志向，达拉回答自己当时完全没有任何具体的职业目标，唯一的潜意识驱动力就是“让父亲为我感到骄傲”（make my dad proud）。 - **与父亲的关系纽带**：父亲早年总是忙于工作，只有晚餐时能偶尔相聚，后来父亲又长期离开身边，达拉坦言自己其实从未真正深入了解作为个体的父亲，但“让父亲骄傲”却成了一条贯穿他整个人生的深沉暗涌。 ### [16:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=964s) 工程学思维：把公司当作一台精密机器来设计 达拉在布朗大学（Brown University）攻读了工程学学位。谈起专业的选择，他笑称父亲当年给的职业规划非常简单直接：“你这辈子可以做任何你想做的事，只要你选的是医生或者工程师就行。”达拉选择了工程学，并迅速爱上了其中极度严谨的问题解决过程：层层递进的数学方程能够精准描摹物理世界的实体运转，而现实中的物质世界又能奇妙地遵循这些理论推演。这种将混乱现实拆解为可求解模型的思维方式，至今仍是他作为商业管理者的核心支柱。 达拉坚信“工程师往往能成为极佳的 CEO”，因为从本质上看，任何一家商业公司都是一台由人所驱动的庞大机器： - **组织即机器**：公司是一个兼具生命力与机械属性的复合有机体，底层是基于规则运作的系统。 - **自动化的递进**：管理者的工作是逐步将员工日常处理的机械化事务进行流程化与自动化，从而释放出人力，去开拓那些目前尚无法被机器取代的全新领域。 - **CEO 的工程学本质**：CEO 的核心职责与工程师无异，即如何搭建内部架构，将业务、人员、流程和资金等要素精密咬合在一起，以解决股东、董事会及自身设定的终极目标。达拉强调，其中最关键的技术活，就是必须在系统运转前选对正确的目标。 ### [18:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1081s) Allen & Company 与人生法则：“永远押注于人” 大学毕业后，达拉进入了老牌精品投资银行 Allen & Company 工作长达 8 年，最初从事风险套利（Risk Arbitrage），随后转向并购顾问（M&A Advisory）。在这段高压经历中，掌舵人赫伯特·艾伦（Herbert Allen Jr.）教会了他一生中最关键的商业哲学——**“永远押注于人”（Always bet on people）**。 在外界看来，华尔街投行是一个充满残酷厮杀的修罗场（dog-eat-dog sport），但 Allen & Company 却特立独行地将全副精力押注在极少数具有非凡潜力和卓越品格的关键人物身上，并在这些人的整个职业生命周期中不离不弃地长期下注。赫伯特·艾伦反复告诫年轻的达拉：世界上有好公司也有烂公司，好公司可能会沦落，烂公司也可能会翻身，但真正伟大的人始终会保持卓越。达拉总结了判断一个人是否值得重注的核心特质： | 考察维度 | 核心表现与内涵 | |:--- |:--- | | **诚信与操守 (Honor & Loyalty)** | 言行一致；无论面对的是好消息还是坏局面，都敢于直言自己的真实打算，并百分之百践行承诺。 | | **才华与勤奋 (Talent & Hard Work)** | 天赋与极致拼搏的结合体；过往具备可被验证的成事记录（Track Record of Success）。 | | **长远合作忠诚度** | 能够经受住市场周期的考验，在顺境与逆境中均保持价值观的稳定输出。 | ### [19:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1179s) 结识 Barry Diller：在一场失败的百亿收购战中遇见贵人 达拉原本以为自己会像亲哥哥卡维（Kaveh Khosrowshahi，至今仍任职于 Allen & Company，那是卡维一辈子唯一做过的工作）一样，在 Allen & Company 干上一辈子。但媒体传奇大亨巴里·迪勒（Barry Diller）的出现彻底改变了他的人生轨迹。当时迪勒是达拉的客户，两人结缘于一场极具戏剧性的世纪商战——对派拉蒙影业（Paramount）的敌意全面要约收购（Hostile Tender Offer）。 在那场派拉蒙争夺战中，巴里·迪勒与维亚康姆（Viacom）的萨默·雷石东（Sumner Redstone）展开了旷日持久的抬价肉搏战。最终，迪勒权衡后决定退出竞标，接受了失败的结局。正是这场惨烈败局中的表现，让达拉看到了迪勒身上绝无仅有的行动家魄力（doer）。在准备向公众发布失败退出的官方声明时，围绕在身边的公关团队试图精心修饰辞令，而迪勒展现出的那种坦荡、果决与不加掩饰的真实，深深震撼了年轻的达拉。达拉当即认定，迪勒是他此生唯一一个一旦有机会追随就绝不会犹豫半秒的领袖。 ### [20:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1248s) 坦然面对失败：“他们赢了，我们输了，下一个” 在商业竞争中，承认失败往往比粉饰太平更具力量。达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）回忆起他的导师巴里·迪勒（Barry Diller）在一次竞购公司失败后的经典举动：迪勒主动选择退出，尽管事后看来放弃或许是个决策失误（他本可以出更高的价格），但在随后发布的新闻声明中，迪勒没有写任何官样文章或开脱借口，而是极其干脆地写道：“他们赢了，我们输了，下一个（They won, we lost, next）。” 这种雷厉风行、永不停歇的行动力深深打动了达拉，让他意识到真正的领袖从不试图把失败粉饰为胜利，而是坦然直面结果，迅速将精力投向下一个目标。 达拉指出，许多公司在面对失败时容易走入两个极端：要么刻意掩盖、粉饰失败，假装一切都在掌控之中；要么陷入过度复盘的怪圈，反复开会、无休止地解剖问题，最终被失败彻底困在原地。达拉推崇的则是一种介于两者之间的务实哲学——清楚认识并承认自己输了，把失败大声说出来，冷静分析原因，然后立即翻篇前行。他强调，如果你从不出手，自然永远不会投偏，但也绝不可能获胜；商业的本质就是在持续出手、遭遇挫折、汲取教训并迅速迈向下一战的“永续运动（constant motion）”中不断迭代。 ### [22:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1360s) 职场杀伐果断，生活却极度“回避冲突” 针对人们常因遭遇打击（taking an L）或被拒绝而陷入长达数年甚至十数年的自信崩塌恶性循环，达拉罕见地剖析了自己极为反差的内心世界。他在商业战场上看似无坚不摧、敢打敢拼，但在现实个人生活中，他坦言自己极其脆弱，甚至可以说是严重的“冲突回避型（conflict-avoidant）”人格。每当在私人关系中面临分歧或被拒绝时，他内心的第一反应往往是极其抗拒与痛苦。 这种性格底色深深植根于他的成长经历。达拉童年逃离伊朗后，作为家族中年纪偏小的堂兄弟以及家庭中最小的弟弟，他从小就没有任何话语权和“特权”，只能习惯于顺应环境、随波逐流（go with the flow），努力做一个不惹麻烦的孩子。这导致他在个人关系里极易隐忍退让；而职场对他来说反倒像是一副被允许展现进攻性、坦然面对胜负的“面具”。在妻子悉德（Syd）的引导与支持下，达拉才逐渐克服这一弱点。他深刻认识到，一味压抑不满并告诉自己“算了吧”，只会让内心的怨恨（resentment）暗中累积，最终侵蚀长久的亲密关系；如今他正通过不断与内心深处的妥协本能抗争，努力学会直面矛盾。 ### [25:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1506s) 从并购撮合者到 Expedia 操盘手 达拉随后梳理了自己走向企业核心操盘者的职业演进轨迹。早年在投资银行任职时，虽然得以见识众多顶级人才与卓越企业的诞生，但他始终无法满足于仅仅充当看客，甚至对那些亲手打造商业帝国的 CEO 心生羡慕。为了从纯粹的金融中介转型为真正的实操管理者，他以并购（M&A）作为切入点进入实业，随后升任首席财务官（CFO）。在达拉看来，CFO 不仅是掌管账目的人，更是 CEO 最核心的业务合伙人，这一岗位为他积累了深厚的全局运营视角。 出任 Expedia 掌舵人则是一次充满戏剧性的机遇。当时 Expedia 的母公司为巴里·迪勒执掌的 IAC 集团，旗下设有旅游业务部门 IAC Travel。时任 IAC Travel 首席执行官埃里克·布拉奇福德（Eric Blachford）因感到大公司管理不合心意而突然辞职。面对群龙无首的窘境，达拉主动向迪勒毛遂自荐：“或许我可以试试看。” 迪勒在别无可选的紧迫情势下提拔了他。不久后，IAC Travel 顶住重重困难完成拆分，作为独立的上市公司 Expedia 正式推向市场，达拉也顺理成章出任 Expedia 首席执行官，并举家迁往西雅图开启了长达十二年的执掌生涯。 - **投资银行时期**：看清商业模式与优秀人才，但受困于只能“旁观”他人建功立业。 - **M&A 到 CFO 转型**：将资本运作作为进入实业的跳板，深度参与公司构建并成为最高决策者的战略合伙人。 - **掌舵 IAC Travel / Expedia**：前任 CEO 辞职后主动请缨，借由母公司业务分拆独立上市，完成从金融操盘手到成熟企业领导者的跃升。 ### [26:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1608s) 捕获技术拐点：下注无需实体履约的虚拟商业 在执掌 Expedia 之前，达拉在 IAC 主导了一系列兼并收购，先后将 Ticketmaster、Match.com、Expedia、Hotels.com 等标的收入囊中。这波收购浪潮背后的核心逻辑，源于达拉与巴里·迪勒敏锐捕捉到了 20 世纪 90 年代末至 2000 年代初商业全面向线上迁移的划时代趋势。迪勒此前深耕家庭电视购物（Home Shopping），其本质正是通过一块平面电视屏幕展示商品、顾客通过电话下单付款；互联网的崛起只是将媒介从电视屏换成了电脑浏览器，将电话订购变成了 HTTP 协议传输。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 传统线下交易向虚拟互联网商业迁移模式 accDescr: 展示Match.com、Ticketmaster与Expedia如何将电话和实体排队模式重塑为无实体履约的纯在线交易 subgraph TRAD["传统模式（线下/电话/实体履约）"] T1["电话交友热线<br/>(录音匹配)"] T2["唱片店排队买票<br/>(如 Tower Records)"] T3["旅行社电话订票<br/>(人工对接)"] T4["实体商品物流<br/>(仓储与配送)"] end subgraph SHIFT["战略选择与转型拐点"] AMZN["亚马逊模式：抢占实体商品与重物流仓储"] IAC["IAC 策略：避开物理交付，专攻无形虚拟商品"] end subgraph ONLINE["线上商业新物种（纯数字闭环）"] O1["Match.com<br/>(在线交友)"] O2["Ticketmaster<br/>(电子票务)"] O3["Expedia / Hotels.com<br/>(在线旅游与酒店预订)"] end T1 --> IAC --> O1 T2 --> IAC --> O2 T3 --> IAC --> O3 T4 --> AMZN ``` 面对这一巨变，达拉与迪勒做出了极其清晰的差异化战略定位：当时亚马逊正在实体商品零售及线下履约仓储（physical fulfillment）领域大举扩张，IAC 明确选择避其锋芒，专门聚焦于**无需物理履约的电子化交易（virtual goods / electronic transactions without physical fulfillment）**。无论是在线交友（原先依赖拨打电话录制个人语音简介、收听他人录音并进行配对）、现场演出票务（原先必须在 Tower Records 等唱片店外大排长龙或电话购票），还是旅游机票与酒店预订，全部属于能够完全在数字闭环中完成履约的高价值无形服务。当主持人询问在技术充满不确定性与普遍怀疑的转型期如何挖掘伟大公司时，达拉坦言预测未来规模或精准回报往往是不可能的，最高效的打法是紧盯浪潮中已经跑在最前面的领头羊，直接给对方拨打陌生拜访电话（cold call）寻求合作与整合。 ### [30:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1834s) 线性思维与指数曲线：为何伟大交易看似都在“溢价” 达拉·科斯罗萨希（Dara Khosrowshahi）谈到了识别大势与商业并购的核心规律。在早期投资中，最优秀的创始人和管理层总能先于他人敏锐捕捉到机遇并以最快速度坚决执行。当顶尖赛道与最强管理团队重合时，就是必须毫不犹豫出手的时刻。达拉直言，他们所做过的成功交易中，从来没有一笔是因为“捡便宜”而胜出的；相反，按照当时市场的估值标准来看，他们收购的每一家伟大公司在账面上全都“买贵了”。但这种昂贵仅仅是基于市场当下的偏见，而非日后兑现的真实价值。 人类的直觉本能习惯于用线性方式看待发展与演进，因为人类感知的时间与日常生活本身就是线性的——每天规律地睡 7 个小时、日程按部就班推进。然而，商业势能与技术革命从来不是线性发展的。在没有实体摩擦力阻碍的虚拟与数字世界中，一项真正优越的技术一旦打破临界点，其业务增长与企业价值就会呈现指数级的“曲棍球棒”（hockey stick）式爆发。普通大众在推测未来时只会画出一条平缓倾斜的直线，而实际爆发的轨迹却是一飞冲天的曲线，真正的超额利润与时代红利，就藏在这条平直预期与陡峭曲线之间的巨大剪刀差里。无论是早期的在线旅游、交友服务还是在线票务，无一不是遵循这一指数规律发展起来的。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 线性预期与指数爆发的认知剪刀差 accDescr: 展示人类直觉的线性预测与技术爆发的曲棍球棒曲线之间的价值缺口 subgraph Perception["人类认知惯性"] A["线性生活节奏<br/>每日作息/物理时间"] --> B["直线式外推预期<br/>平缓增长模型"] end subgraph Reality["技术驱动现实"] C["零摩擦虚拟网络<br/>优质技术壁垒"] --> D["曲棍球棒曲线<br/>指数级指数爆发"] end B -.->|"认知差与估值差"| E["巨大商业红利空间<br/>(看似溢价实则被低估)"] D ==> E ``` ### [32:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1972s) 杰文斯悖论与 Uber 的降生：打破市场上限的指数扩张 这种非线性增长与经济学中的“杰文斯悖论”（Jevons Paradox）不谋而合：当某种技术或服务变得极其便捷、高效且廉价时，人们对它的需求不会仅仅是增量式的微幅上升，而是会出现爆发式、几何级的激增。Uber 的诞生与演变正是这一悖论的终极体现。最初，联合创始人加勒特·坎普（Garrett Camp）在巴黎一个大雪纷飞的冬日里苦等计程车无果，便萌生了一个念头：“掏出手机就能一键叫来一辆高档黑车，该有多酷？”随后他找到了特拉维斯·卡兰尼克（Travis Kalanick）作为运营核心与联合创始人共同推进。 起初，外界分析师对 Uber 的市场规模测算极其狭隘：黑车市场的盘子仅有区区数十亿美元，哪怕算上传统出租车行业也相当有限。然而线性思维者完全没有料到，一旦出行被打造成极度便捷、随叫随到的廉价服务，其需求池将被彻底激活并无限扩张。Uber 今天的体量远远超出了当年所有黑车与出租车市场的总和，正是由杰文斯悖论催生的产物。而在时间窗口上，移动互联网技术与 iPhone 的普及构成了不可或缺的基础设施。特拉维斯早期的天才举措之一，就是招募各城市的总经理（GM），让他们“拎着装满 iPhone 的大包”直接空降新城市，发给那些连智能手机都没有的黑车司机，从而抢占先机。这种对商业规律的激进复制和全球闪电式扩张（blitzscaling），将时代红利与团队魄力转化为了无法逾越的护城河。 - **Uber 创立初衷**：源于巴黎雪夜打不到车的一闪之念，早期定位于高端黑车（black car）即时叫车服务。 - **市场认知误区**：批评者最初仅将 Uber 框定在数十亿美元的既有黑车或出租车存量市场，忽视了降价增效后诱发的海量全新需求。 - **冷启动打法**：城市经理随身携带装满 iPhone 的背包直奔街头，地推分发给专业司机以快速铺开供给端。 ### [36:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=2165s) 从财务天才到执掌帅印：在 Expedia 的两次人事惨败 达拉从投资银行跨界进入 Expedia 担任首席财务官（CFO），随后升任首席执行官（CEO）。商界向来对银行家或财务官转型 CEO 存有成见，认为他们往往过度金融化、规避风险而缺乏带队与运营实操能力。节目中播放了媒体大亨、IAC 董事长巴里·迪勒（Barry Diller）的评价录音。巴里坦言，达拉最初完全是走纯财务路线晋升上来的，一开始根本没有管理大规模团队的经验，这让他起步十分艰难，但达拉以惊人的速度彻底掌握了领导之道，并学会了如何为整家公司负起终极责任。 这段在巴里手下历练的岁月深深塑造了达拉。当时 Expedia 旗下最核心的 expedia.com 业务贡献了整个集团 50% 的利润，但其领导层却陷入瘫痪。达拉第一次任命的负责人以解雇告终，紧接着物色的第二任人选又彻底沦为一场灾难。面对连续两度招人不当（“0 胜 2 负”）的尴尬局面，达拉直接走向巴里和董事会挑明：“如果我在最核心业务的负责人招聘上连错三次，你们就应该把我开掉。”巴里当即爽快答应：“没错，我们确实会开除你。” 达拉深刻反思，意识到自己在办公室里根本无法理解这项复杂业务的本质，因而无法选出合适的人选。他做出了一个大胆决定：亲自兼任该业务负责人 6 到 12 个月。不料这一干就是五六年，他一边掌管上市公司 Expedia Inc. 集团，一边深入一线担任 expedia.com 的总裁。正是这段真枪实弹的苦战，彻底洗脱了他身上的纯金融底色，打磨出了扎实的实战运营功底。他领悟到，资本配置与财务财技固然重要，但真正让他燃起激情的，是亲手运营科技公司、设定目标、搭建团队并带领众人破局的过程。 ### [39:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=2388s) 科技转型的至暗时刻：指数级衰退与“吓坏员工”的新官上任 达拉接手核心运营仅三个月，人力资源负责人就跑来警告他：“你快把所有人吓死了。”回想当时的严苛态度，达拉笑着回忆：“我当时觉得这本就是我的职责。”科技企业的困境反转（turnaround）向来是商业世界中最残酷的硬仗之一。一旦科技公司的正向势能转为负向滑坡，想要力挽狂澜几乎是不可能的任务——就像当年的巨头雅虎（Yahoo），即便竭尽全力挣扎，也无法回到往日巅峰。 更致命的是，指数规律在衰退期同样残酷生效。很多业务在下坡路的前一两年看起来仅仅是表现不佳，表面上“似乎没那么糟糕”，但如果不从根子上刮骨疗毒，十年之后等待这家企业的必将是一场灭顶之灾。而达拉在深入 Expedia 一线后震惊地发现，这家原本领先的互联网先锋，底层的技术引擎已经彻底千疮百孔、名存实亡。面对即将到来的指数级崩塌，他必须用极度的紧迫感与强硬姿态打破过去的舒适区，而这正是让整个团队感到恐慌的真正根源。 ### [41:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=2462s) 越过管理层级直达信息源头：向巴里·迪勒学习的危机敏锐度 在接手 Expedia 早期，达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）迅速察觉到底层的严重隐患：代码库陈旧过时且多年未获再投资，技术领导层处于得过且过的“摸鱼滑行”（coasting）状态。这种迹象让他警铃大作。他从导师巴里·迪勒（Barry Diller）身上学到的核心领导法则之一就是：一旦警钟敲响、看清了危险苗头，就必须立刻采取行动，绝不能犹豫半秒。在达拉看来，Expedia 当时绝非一家只需要微调的公司，而是一场真正的“困境反转”（turnaround）；若不能雷厉风行地大刀阔斧改革，企业就会迅速滑向指数级衰退的深渊。 为了摸清问题核心，达拉继承了巴里·迪勒对“极致透明度”的偏执追求。巴里在调研问题时，从不满足于听取经过多层转述的“汇报摘要”，而是直接找到源头人员——无论对方是刚入职的初级分析师还是事业部总裁。因为信息在科层制中每经过一层转译，就会丧失大量细节与保真度：从分析师、项目经理、副总裁（VP）再到高级副总裁（SVP），逐级汇报往往伴随着“我们真的想让 CEO 知道这个吗？”或者“换一种更委婉的说法”等政治考量。达拉指出，CEO 很容易被困在团队刻意构建的“信息茧房”中；即便团队再优秀，汇报内容也必然带有主观滤镜。只有越过中间层级直插核心，领导者才能掌握真实情况并以最快速度做出决断。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 组织信息流失与直穿源头模型 accDescr: 对比传统层层汇报的信息失真过程与穿透式直连源头的高保真信息获取机制。 subgraph Conventional ["传统科层汇报：保真度逐级流失"] F1["一线人员 / 初级分析师"] -->|"汇报过滤"| M1["中层管理 (Associate / VP)"] M1 -->|"美化修饰"| S1["高管层 (SVP)"] S1 -->|"失真摘要"| CEO1["CEO: 获得修剪后的世界"] end subgraph DirectAccess ["穿透式直连：保障真实信息密度"] F2["一线代码库 / 基层工程师"] CEO2["CEO: 直击源头与反向坦诚"] F2 <==>|"跨级随机抽检 / 讲真话交换"| CEO2 end ``` ### [43:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=2581s) 激进透明度与反向筛选：用真话击穿企业的“过滤气泡” 达拉不仅继承了探查源头的习惯，更将其演变为一种管理上的双向防御机制：想要基层吐露真正的残酷现实，管理者必须首先对团队毫无保留地坦白。人类生来就拥有灵敏的“谎言探测器”。当 CEO 面对员工只会打官腔、大谈“本季度虽面临挑战但未来向好”等公关式套话时，团队一眼就能看穿虚伪，进而选择用同样的虚假敷衍回敬管理层。因此，达拉坚持将最赤裸的真相抛给团队，以此为契机撬动员工内心被层层防备压抑的真实反馈。 这种坦率风格曾让当时的人力资源负责人感到恐慌，认为达拉在员工会议上把问题剖析得过于残酷，会“把大家吓破胆”。但达拉展现了清晰的决策容错框架：如果要在“报喜不报忧而粉饰太平”与“讲出实情而吓跑部分员工”之间承担犯错的风险，他会毫不犹豫地选择后者。 - **去留法则**：如果有人无法直面严苛现实、无法承受迎难而上的高压战斗，达拉的回答极其直接——“那他们大可以离开（Then they can leave）”，换个舒适的地方去发展职业生涯。 - **吸引对的人**：极度的透明不仅能筛选掉抗压能力弱的员工，还能向外辐射信号，吸引真正有斗志、渴望破局的人才。 - **避免决策灾难**：CEO 做出毁灭性决定的根源，通常并非智商或判断力有问题，而是被下属喂了错误的数据，导致在歪曲的事实基础上做出了看似合理的错误判断。 ### [45:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=2705s) 穿透科层制的随机直连渠道与程序员的“反权威”坦诚 企业作为一个具有自我保全机制的庞大组织，其中层团队往往存在本能的防卫动机——他们试图控制流向 CEO 的信息流，筛选谁能见 CEO、决定日程如何排满，美其名曰“防止最高领导者被琐碎信息淹没”。为了打破这种组织自闭性，达拉刻意建立了一套反直觉的“随机直连机制”。他会经常跳过三四级管理架构，直接找基层一线工程师闲聊。 达拉与主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）探讨了工程师这一群体的独特心理特质：代码是客观冷酷的终极真理，它只认逻辑不认头衔，因此优秀的工程师往往天然带着一种对权威的蔑视与反叛。他们不在乎 CEO 的身份与排场，甚至极其享受“把高高在上的 CEO 驳得哑口无言”的快感。巴特利特也深有同感，提到自己在公司里最喜欢找那些年仅 24 岁、毫无职场伪装的女员工请教意见，因为她们从不察言观色，只会直截了当地把烂摊子端上台面。这种不经修饰的直接反馈，正是高层制定战略最匮乏的养分。 ### [46:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=2814s) 重塑舒适团队的文化：从 Expedia 的团队换血到 Uber 的极致要求 面对巴特利特关于“接手一家因长期成功而陷入松懈状态的公司时，如何彻底扭转文化”的提问，达拉坦言过程极度痛苦，而最立竿见影的“捷径”往往不是空洞地宣讲价值观，而是直接换人。在 Expedia，由于企业过往多年享有市场红利，团队整体处于温吞的“中等”努力状态，达拉几乎以极快的速度清洗并撤换了整支领导团队，换入一批充满饥饿感、渴望证明自己的使命导向型人才。 在文化落地层面，管理者的言传身教是唯一的标尺。如果领导者要求全力以赴，自己就必须率先践行机制——例如在周六给团队发工作邮件，若未收到回复，周日就会追加一个简短而极具压迫感的“？”以推动事务迅速运转。然而，回顾两家公司的管理，达拉指出了因商业模式与产品属性带来的心智妥协与反差： | 维度 | Expedia 时期 | Uber 执掌时期 | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **产品属性** | 售卖度假与休闲旅游（主打放松身心） | 7x24 小时高并发的全球即时交通与物流网络 | | **文化宣导** | 被迫顾及“工作与生活平衡”（Work-Life Balance） | 坚决不谈平衡，明确宣告极致的高压与苛求 | | **绩效容忍度** | 存在一定程度的妥协与弹性空间 | 绩效未达标即明确反馈；未见改善则迅速淘汰 | | **员工赋权** | 偏向稳健的重组推进 | 个人拥有巨大能动性（Agency），深度参与改变世界 | 达拉反思道，当年在 Expedia 宣扬工作与生活平衡算是一种遗憾，因为售卖度假产品的属性让他在要求严苛方面有所顾忌；但在 Uber，他的规则无比透明：“来到 Uber，你必须拼命工作（work your ass off）。我们极具野心、要求极其严苛。如果你想混日子摸鱼，千万别来这里。” ### [49:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=2984s) 赞助插播与 Expedia 的十二年商业战绩 在节目中场，主持人巴特利特插入了一段由 Shopify 赞助的商业独白。他提到每逢新旧交替之际，人们总在谈论宏大目标与新习惯，但往往将陈旧的想法年复一年地拖延，总想等待一个完美的时机或完美的自己。他以 Shopify 能够一站式搭建商店、处理支付与运用 AI 工具为例，呼吁受众告别内耗，在 2026 年迈出践行商业灵感的第一步。 随后话题切回达拉的职业履历盘点。巴特利特列出了一组极为震撼的硬核数据，回顾了达拉在担任 Expedia 首席执行官的 12 年间交出的成绩单： - **公司股价**：累计飙升达 550%； - **营业收入**：暴增 400%，从最初的 21 亿美元一路攀升至 88 亿美元； - **行业地位**：达拉凭借这一逆境反转与高速增长奇迹，一度成为全美薪酬最高的上市公司 CEO 之一。 ### [50:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3059s) 放弃九千多万美金期权与给年轻人的第一建议：学会极致努力 达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）谈及自己当初离开 Expedia 加盟 Uber 的决定。彼时他在美国科技公司享有高达 9410 万美元的高额薪酬与期权包裹，但他毅然将其全部抛在脑后，甚至许多尚未归属的期权直接作废。当被问及离开这一切是否后悔时，他一笑置之：“那是一笔巨大的期权，虽然没来得及归属，但一切都很好，这段经历非常棒。” 主持人提到，在十年前公开宣扬“拼命努力工作”几乎是一件政治不正确的禁忌话题，而如今社会观念似乎终于迎来了解绑。达拉经常被问到会给年轻人什么建议，他坚信人生中最核心的技能不是选专业——不是去纠结当程序员、医生，还是在 AI 能轻易写代码的时代去学文科——而是“学会努力工作”（the skill of working hard）。顶级运动员固然天赋异禀，但像克里斯蒂亚诺·罗纳尔多（Ronaldo）或迈克尔·乔丹（Michael Jordan）这样真正拔尖的精英，其决定性差距在于极致的自律、严苛的结构和永不停歇的刻苦。无论在商业还是个人生活中，这种特质都会随时间产生巨大的复利效应。达拉直言，无论早年做银行家还是如今做高管，他的信条就是“绝不让任何人的努力程度超过我”。别人可能更聪明、更有天赋，但在拼劲上无法战胜他。 这种高强度工作并不等同于毫无弹性。达拉强调，许多人将“刻苦工作”与“缺乏灵活性”混为一谈。他非常重视家庭生活，只要人在城里，晚上 6:00 到 8:00 必定雷打不动与家人共进晚餐。然而生活的本质是权衡取舍：到了晚上 9:30 他会继续查阅回复邮件，清晨 5:30 醒来第一件事也是处理邮件。 - **放弃的薪酬待遇**：离开 Expedia 前往 Uber 时放弃了价值约 9410 万美元的未归属期权激励。 - **生活节奏与界限**：坚持晚间 6:00 至 8:00 陪伴家人吃晚餐，但早晨 5:30 与深夜 9:30 均处于工作状态。 - **复利优势**：通过长期的极致投入，弥补天赋差距并构建不可替代的个人与企业壁垒。 --- ### [53:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3212s) 职场透明度与“拥抱磨砺”：刻苦是一种可习得的技能吗？ 主持人指出，从疫情远程办公到重返办公室的浪潮中，最具毒性的管理往往是台上一套、台下一套；而达拉的做法是将底线和期望坦诚相告，让员工能够自主权衡去留。达拉对此完全赞同，认为唯有先向团队彻底坦诚，员工才会向管理者以诚相待；追求舒适安逸的人尽可选择其他公司，而 Uber 的文化自然会吸引那些志同道合、愿意拼搏的人。 谈到“学会努力工作”是否真是一门后天技能，达拉指出，面对失败不气馁、反复尝试、保持注意力高度聚焦，绝不是一个可以随意打开或关闭的开关，它展现的是一种“冷酷的坚定”（grim determination）。在 Uber 的核心价值观中，就明确写着“拥抱磨砺”（Embrace the grind）。然而，当被问及是否见过原本散漫的人彻底蜕变成为极其刻苦的工作狂时，达拉坦言自己一时竟想不出任何具体案例。主持人也补充，布莱恩·切斯基（Brian Chesky）或埃隆·马斯克（Elon Musk）似乎也表达过类似观点——几乎从未见过不努力的人突然变成极度勤奋者。达拉那种无情的坚韧（relentlessness），很大程度上是在不可选择的童年逃难与动荡境遇中淬炼而成的，他将这种冷酷首先施加于自己。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Uber企业文化与员工双向筛选机制 accDescr: 展示Uber如何通过清晰价值观筛选并留存高度自律人才的流程图 subgraph CultureSetup ["组织期望与价值确立"] A["明确高压与勤勉文化<br/>'Embrace the grind'"] --> B["彻底坦诚的沟通体系<br/>不搞虚假承诺与伪装"] end subgraph MutualSelection ["双向筛选与自我驱动"] B --> C{"文化契合度测试"} C -- "追求安逸与舒适" --> D["流向其他节奏较慢的企业"] C -- "极度自律且渴望挑战" --> E["选择留任并自我施压"] end subgraph CompoundingPerformance ["长期复利效应"] E --> F["对失败不气馁的坚韧"] F --> G["跨职能全面日常自我优化"] end ``` --- ### [55:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3321s) 持续优化的组织机器与超越竞争对手的迭代速度 达拉提到，杰夫·贝佐斯（Jeff Bezos）当年甚至曾考虑过将亚马逊命名为“Relentless”（坚韧不拔/永不停歇），这正是顶级科技公司最鲜明的精神内核。在 Uber，整家公司被拆解为一个高度精密进化的有机体，没有任何一个业务单元停滞不前： 从支付团队拓展新型支付渠道与提高交易成功率、反欺诈团队降低风险损失，到移动端团队全力优化转化率，每一个部门都被赋予了明确的持续优化目标与指标。如果某个团队的改进节奏不够快，就会被更敏锐的人取而代之。这种永不停止的微小改进汇聚成了公司的飞轮。达拉特别强调，光是“变得更好”毫无意义，因为竞争对手每天同样在进步，企业必须“比竞争对手进步得更快”。 决定胜负的关键只有两点：**适应环境与自我变革的速度**，以及**识别机会并果断出击的敏锐度**。极高的执行速度本质上是在“加速时间”——竞争对手尝试一次射门的时间里，自己若能射门两次，不仅能获得两倍的数据反馈来修正方向，还能在数学概率上直接将成功率提升 100%。 - **亚马逊命名轶事**：贝佐斯早期曾认真考虑以“Relentless”作为公司名称。 - **全方位持续优化**：涵盖支付成功率、欺诈风控、移动 App 转化率等每一个颗粒度环节。 - **速度的本质**：高频尝试与快速试错如同足球场上的连续“射门得分”（shots on goal），以双倍试错换取双倍迭代数据。 --- ### [57:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3468s) 骨子里的不服输：从连年巨亏到近百亿自由现金流 针对很多成功企业因“厌恶损失”（Loss Aversion）而在胜利后陷入自满、规避风险的研究，达拉分析了 Uber 为何能始终保持饥饿感。在他看来，Uber 是一家骨子里带着“不服输与愤懑感”（chip on its shoulder）的企业： 1. **初创期**：为了合法生存权，与各地势力庞大的传统出租车工会死磕； 2. **危机期**：联合创始人兼前 CEO 特拉维斯·卡兰尼克（Travis Kalanick）离职引发的管理层震荡与品牌危机； 3. **外部重创与质疑**：经历了极其惨淡艰难的 IPO、疫情期间业务近乎腰斩的重创，以及外界普遍断言“Uber 永远无法盈利”的唱衰； 4. **全新挑战**：面对 AI 浪潮与完全无人驾驶（Robotaxi）对核心商业模式带来的颠覆性考验。 Uber 始终处于被低估的境地，这种逆境记忆深深植根于文化之中。虽然偶有小范围的安逸苗头，但管理团队一旦发现自满情绪，就会立刻将其连根拔除。 谈到公司的财务大逆转，主持人指出，在达拉加入 Uber 时，公司每年净亏损高达 25 亿至 30 亿美元；而如今，Uber 展现了惊人的造血能力。达拉在旁笑着纠正主持人的数据：“过去一年产生的自由现金流不是 85 亿，而是 98 亿美元。”对于这份亮眼成绩单，达拉表示团队确实会停下来举杯庆祝，见证企业接连刷新历史纪录非常振奋人心，但在短暂享受胜利之后，迎接他们的依然是永不停息的下一场攻坚。 ### [01:00:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3612s) 庆祝成功与警惕自满：保持饥饿感的进攻姿态 当谈到团队打破纪录时，达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）坦言公司确实会庆祝，但可能“庆祝得还不够多”。在他看来，如果非要在两种错误之间做选择，他宁愿犯“庆祝稍微少了一点、对现状总带有一丝不满并持续向前推进行动”的错误。不过他也补充道，在如此激烈残酷的市场竞争中取得成功，这种成功本身就带来了一种巨大的内在满足感，他的团队同样对此深有共鸣。 面对史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）关于“如何激励团队大胆冒险、是否按尝试次数考核”的提问，达拉指出，Uber 的基因就是永远保持高速运转与严苛的执行节奏。他特别强调了一个深层次的组织陷阱：企业随着规模扩大和盈利丰厚，往往会不可避免地变得厌恶风险（risk-averse）。然而逻辑上恰恰应该相反——现在的 Uber 坐拥约 98 亿美元的自由现金流，这笔充裕的缓冲资金本该成为团队承担更大错误与探索未知领域的护城河。因此，在过去两年中，他有意识地推动全员主动出击，将战略姿态从防御转向进攻： - 领导者必须身体力行：通过自身做出一些看似更激进、更冒险的决策，为全公司树立标杆。 - 包容失败的常态化：当出现失败案例时，公开向团队表明“这完全没问题”，随后迅速复盘并转向下一步。 ### [01:01:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3715s) 目标设定的艺术与固有缺陷 在团队目标管理上，达拉透露 Uber 内部各业务部门都有高度量化的指标。例如广告业务团队不仅要背负由技术驱动的年度增量广告收入指标，还要兼顾客户净推荐值（NPS）与整体满意度。所有团队的目标都会被严密、虔诚般地追踪与执行。 然而，达拉也坦率地道出了这种经典管理机制的局限性：“目标设定本身是一门充满挑战的艺术。”目标究竟定得太高激进而无法落地，还是定得太保守缺乏野心？员工与团队是否会为了完成指标而钻空子、操纵系统（game the system）？他坦承，尽管目前目标管理是维持大型组织运转最有效的抓手，但他深知其远非完美，也一直在寻找更好的机制。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 目标设定与执行反馈环 accDescr: 展示部门指标设定、严格追踪以及面临的制度漏洞博弈过程 subgraph GoalSetting["目标设定与拆解"] A["业务目标规划<br/>(收入增长 / NPS / 满意度)"] --> B["严密指标追踪<br/>(Relentlessly Tracked)"] end subgraph Dilemmas["管理的现实博弈"] B --> C{"目标设定的艺术与挑战"} C -->|"目标过低"| D["缺乏雄心 / 潜能未释放"] C -->|"目标过高"| E["团队挫败 / 动作变形"] C -->|"机制漏洞"| F["钻营考核漏洞<br/>(Gaming the System)"] end ``` ### [01:02:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3765s) 价值观重塑的惨痛教训：“Do the Right Thing, Period.” 许多企业热衷于拉团队去开务虚会（offsite），在白板上写满“雄心、激情、勇气”等千篇一律的口号。谈及 Uber 的企业价值观演变，达拉承认他们曾经历过一次彻底的失败，直到第二次才摸索出正确的路径。在他刚接任 Uber 时，公司深陷丑闻泥潭，必须进行大刀阔斧的文化重置（cultural reset）。 老 Uber 的文化并非全无亮点，例如曾有一项著名的价值观叫作“踩人脚趾”（Toe Stepping）。其初衷是为了建立极度坦诚的沟通氛围——哪怕事实令人难堪、哪怕会踩痛别人的脚趾，为了追求真相也必须直言不讳。但这项机制在执行中被严重武器化（weaponized），“原本源于讲真话的良好初衷，最终沦为某些人肆无忌惮做混蛋（being a jerk）的借口”。 达拉借用杰夫·贝索斯（Jeff Bezos）的观点指出，企业价值观是自然浮现出来的，而不是靠高层发号施令“汝当如何”。初入公司时，达拉试图通过全员票选来重塑价值观，但收集上来并精简出的词汇大多平庸乏味，诸如“团队合作、激情、野心”——“试问世界上有哪家公司不标榜团队合作？简直是笑话。” 在第一版价值观中，唯一真正由达拉本人亲手写下的只有一条：“做正确的事，毋庸置疑”（Do the right thing, period.）： - 这条准则没有任何冗长的注脚或解释，当员工困惑地询问具体含义时，答案就是“靠你自己运用判断力去弄清楚”。 - 这向全员传递了一个极具分量的责任信号：在商业利益与更高准则冲突时（例如当业务增长可能牺牲用户安全时），毫无疑问必须将安全置于商业之上。 大约入职四到五年后，在负责人才与人力资源的首席人力官尼基·克里希那穆提（Nikki Krishnamurthy）的极力推动下，达拉开启了第二轮价值观重塑。此时的 Uber 已经逐渐走出危机，达拉也建立了足够的底气与话语权。他们彻底抛弃了平庸的辞藻，提炼出真正契合 Uber 特质的全新准则： - **“Go Get It”**：既一语双关地概括了 Uber 的核心业务本质——接送人出行（Go）与外卖配送（Get it），又代表了一种积极进攻、敢打敢拼、为了胜利全力以赴的开拓者态度。 - **“Great minds don't think alike”（卓越的头脑从不雷同）**：打破“英雄所见略同”的陈词滥调，鼓励多元视角与深度思想碰撞。 ### [01:07:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4033s) 人才密度与反直觉的豪赌：从死敌到拥抱出租车 在讨论雷·库兹韦尔（Ray Kurzweil）关于技术加速回报定律（例如未来几十年内几十天的技术变化就相当于过去一整年）时，史蒂文询问达拉：在外部世界变化如此迅猛、正确答案不断被颠覆的时代，该如何打造团队？ 达拉毫不吝啬地肯定了联合创始人特拉维斯·卡兰尼克（Travis Kalanick）和初代团队的遗产。外界常有一种误解，认为早期 Uber 的一切都是错的，但达拉强调事实绝非如此：“Uber 始终维持着极高的人才门槛（talent bar），从未妥协。”他认为，唯有兼具极高才华与驱动力的团队，才会对“追求事实真相”保持狂热的渴望。光有文化口号毫无意义，核心在于组织里是否有饥渴、好胜、带有强烈证明欲（chip on its shoulder）的人才，以及一个不因被下属挑战而惩罚下属的包容型管理层。 谈及 Uber 历史上那些反直觉、最初看似荒谬却最终带来巨大回报的战略孤注一掷时，达拉笑着举出了一个生动的案例：出租车业务如今成了 Uber 增长最快的板块之一。Uber 最初作为传统出租车行业的颠覆者与死敌起家，倾尽全力构建点对点的网约车网络，然而在大约五六年前，他们却做出了一个曾经看似不可思议的决定——主动向老对手伸出橄榄枝，将传统出租车全面接入 Uber 生态。 ### [01:09:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4171s) 出人意料的逆向创新：将出租车接入 Uber 平台 在 Uber 内部，颠覆原有的思维定式往往来自局外视角与大胆尝试的结合。Uber 现任产品负责人萨钦（Sachin Kansal）在加入公司之前，曾致力于研发一种让传统出租车公司拥有自己叫车 App 的技术。当他最终加入 Uber 时，提出了一个极具争议的大胆想法：“为什么我们不直接在 Uber 平台里上线传统出租车？” 当时，这一提议在 Uber 内部遭到了强烈抵触。Dara Khosrowshahi 出于对创始团队的尊重与借鉴，一直与 Uber 的早期创始人们保持着沟通，他自谦这是“站在巨人的肩膀上”。然而，创始团队在听到这个方案时却给出了极其严厉的评价，直斥这是“全天下最愚蠢的念头”。他们列举了大量理由：传统出租车行业对 Uber 恨之入骨、技术系统无法打通、双方势同水火，加之 Uber 早期曾做过尝试却以惨败告终。 但萨钦对出租车行业的深刻理解，叠加 Dara 某种带着“不妨一试（Why the hell not try it?）”的开放态度，促成了这一产品的落地。事实证明，出租车业务随后逆势成为 Uber 增长最为迅猛的业务板块。这项举措彻底颠覆了 Uber 创立初期与传统出租车针锋相对的立足之本，Dara 如今的目标则是“希望未来将全世界的每一辆传统出租车都连入 Uber 网络”。 - **创始团队与内部反对理由**：传统出租车对 Uber 充满敌意、双方系统相互排斥、存在大量技术兼容壁垒，且此前尝试曾彻底告终。 - **业务现状**：接入传统出租车已成为 Uber 内部增长速度最快的新引擎。 --- ### [01:10:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4235s) 赞助插播：睡眠健康、AI 语音生产力工具与目标拆解手帐 节目录制期间，主持人 Steven Bartlett 分享了三项与其个人工作生活息息相关的产品： 在个人精力与健康管理方面，Steven 谈到自己创业的前十年完全忽视睡眠，但如今认识到睡眠是决定专注力、清晰思考以及领导力表现的核心指标。通过佩戴 Whoop 智能手环四年来的监测，他学会了依据睡眠、恢复分和身体负荷数据来动态调整作息与工作强度，避免凭空猜测身体状态。 随后，Steven 介绍了自己投资并正在疯狂增长的 AI 生产力应用 Wispr Flow。该工具允许用户在手机与电脑端直接通过语音输入，利用 AI 自动润色并生成符合语境的内容（例如在 WhatsApp 上语气更随性，在电子邮件中更专业），还能通过快捷短语调取联系人信息（如直接说出“Jack's LinkedIn”即可自动调取相应主页），从而大幅节约日常打字与整理邮件的时间成本。 最后，针对设定宏大目标所带来的心理压力，Steven 结合团队实践提出了“1% 哲学”。他指出，直面像珠穆朗玛峰一样庞大的远景往往让人望而生畏，唯有将其拆解为每天 1% 的微小动作才能切实达成，这也促成了《The 1% Diary》手帐的迭代与发售。 --- ### [01:13:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4434s) 重新审视外来物种：AI 浪潮与 Uber 的底层架构 话题转向席卷全球的人工智能。Steven 将 AI 比作“突然降临在人类当中的外来物种（an alien that's arrived amongst us）”，甚至开玩笑提到在播客测试中，观众对 AI 声音与他本人声音的留存率已经相差无几，这引发了他对行业颠覆的警惕。他询问 Dara：面对颠覆性技术可能摧毁一切的潜在前景，是否会感到焦虑或偏执？ Dara 直言自己并不偏执，他的本能始终是“迎难而上、迅速推进”。他指出，许多人忽视了一个事实：Uber 实际上从一开始就是一家以 AI 为核心引擎搭建的公司。无论是动态定价、实时路线规划、乘客与司机的最优匹配，还是外卖送餐骑手是否将两笔订单合并配送（batching），其底层全由 AI 算法编排。Uber 每天要处理超过 4000 万次行程，从纽约的高楼街区到尼日利亚拉各斯（Lagos）错综复杂的路网，这种超大规模的实时协同调度根本不可能依靠传统的人工启发式规则（heuristics）来实现。 Uber 的技术骨架由数以千计针对局部现实问题微调的小型 AI 模型拼接而成。由于 AI 系统并非基于硬编码规则，模型通常在 96% 的情况下运行良好，但必然伴随 4% 的不可控差错和突发状况（emergent issues）。因此，Uber 整个团队早已对 AI 固有的“不确定性层（uncertainty layer）”习以为常。尽管 Uber 并非从事底层前沿理论的基础科研机构，但在应用型 AI（Applied AI）领域，团队正全力以赴将最新的 AI 交互体验推向全业务场景。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Uber 的 AI 调度与业务执行架构 accDescr: 展示 Uber 核心调度中小型局部 AI 模型的输入、协同运算与全球多场景落地流程 subgraph Inputs["输入层与现实变量"] A["动态订单需求<br/>每日 4,000 万次行程"] B["复杂城市环境<br/>纽约街道 / 拉各斯路况"] end subgraph CoreEngine["Uber 核心 AI 编排层"] C["小型本地化专用模型集群"] D["实时运筹计算<br/>动态定价 / 路径规划 / 派单匹配 / 订单批处理"] C --> D end subgraph RealWorldExecution["落地执行与容错机制"] E["线下实时高效调度"] F["不确定性层管理<br/>接受 96% 准确度与 4% 异常波动"] end Inputs --> CoreEngine D --> RealWorldExecution ``` - **调度规模**：全平台每天完成多达 4000 万次行程（40 million trips a day）。 - **调度范围**：算法涵盖动态定价、路线规划、司乘匹配及外卖送餐员合单逻辑。 - **系统特质**：放弃死板的人工规则，接受系统 96% 的运行精度以及 4% 涌现出的差错与不确定性。 --- ### [01:16:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4576s) 加速回报定律：未来 10 至 20 年的颠覆与社会重构 从更宏观的社会视角审视，Dara 认为 AI 对整个人类文明的冲击将是前所未有的。他引用了雷·库兹韦尔（Ray Kurzweil）著名的“加速回报定律（Law of Accelerating Returns）”来解释当下的危机：在过往的历史中，人类社会面对工业化或自动化变革时总能完成平稳过渡，例如农业人口曾占劳动力总量的绝大部分，如今在发达经济体已不足 1%，这是因为社会拥有长达数十甚至上百年的“调整时间缓冲期”。 然而，现在的 AI 正在展现出真正的独立思考能力。Dara 做出了一项惊人的推断：在接下来的 10 年之内，AI 将有能力替代 70% 到 80% 人类所从事的工作。对整个社会形态而言，10 年的转型窗口期极其短暂，根本不足以完成数以亿计劳动人口的重新培训与岗位消化。 针对具体替代路径，Dara 提出了分阶段演进的时间表： - **智力型脑力劳动（Intellectual Jobs）**：预计将在未来 10 年内被全面覆盖与深度替代，核心驱动力在于数字智能在虚拟层面的极速迭代。 - **物理型体力劳动（Physical Jobs）**：预计需要 15 至 20 年的时间。这并非由于智能不足，而是因为物理机器人、自动驾驶车辆等硬件属于重资产（capital heavy）投资，必须同复杂的现实物理世界打交道，其迭代速度天然受到制造业与物理定律的掣肘。 面对这场空前的冲击，Steven 表达了对普通人可能无工可做的深层担忧，直言许多人根本无法在短时间内完成技能重塑去从事“AI 研发类工作”。Dara 则强调，人类无法人为踩刹车去减缓时代变革的速率；与其恐惧逃避，唯一的出路是纵身投入这场变革之中，只有身处浪潮核心，才有可能在技术如何重构现实世界的过程中保留话语权。 ### [01:18:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4695s) 白领岗位受冲击与 Uber 的 AI 编程革命 主持人指出，虽然人们总说 AI 会协助人类进行职业再培训，但社会究竟如何消化 70% 到 80% 被颠覆的人口仍是未解之谜。以他自己的公司为例，许多过去需要招聘的岗位如今已被 AI 极其出色地代劳；团队每天都在测试最新模型（如 Gemini 1.5 Pro 等）是否能取代目前的手工操作，并且每天都在取得突破。在 Uber 内部，编程同样经历了巨大的积极颠覆。 达拉透露，Uber 内部约有 90% 的软件工程师正在使用 AI 工具。在这庞大的人群中，约有 30% 属于“超级用户”（Power Users）。Uber 本质上就是一个庞大的代码库，工程师就是为系统砌砖的建造者。在生产力指标上（例如提交差异代码 `diffs` 的数量），这 30% 的超级用户展现出了前所未见的生产效率跨越。达拉认为，编程的本质正从手动敲写代码转向“编排智能体”（Orchestrating Agents）来构建系统。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Uber 软件工程角色的演进路径 accDescr: 展示工程师从传统手动编写代码转向编排智能体，并在长期可能演变为直接采购 GPU 和 Agent 的过程。 subgraph Phase1["当前阶段：人机协同"] A["传统手动写代码<br/>(逐行敲砖)"] --> B["编排 AI 智能体<br/>(90% 工程师使用，30% 超级用户)"] end subgraph Phase2["近期扩展：效率驱动"] B --> C["人均效能提升 25%+"] C --> D["招募更多工程师以加速解决未解难题"] end subgraph Phase3["长期演进：5年之后"] D --> E["停止增加工程师编制"] E --> F["直接采购英伟达 GPU 与 Agent 算力"] end ``` - **增员与替代的临界点**：达拉的短期策略是，即使工程师平均效率提升 25%，他依然会扩大招聘以加速攻关；但 5 年后随着生产力进一步剧增，公司可能不再增加工程人员编制，转而将预算投入到向英伟达（NVIDIA）采购 GPU 和引入更多智能体上。 --- ### [01:21:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=4876s) “Dara AI” 趣事与人类智能的真正护城河 针对主持人提出的“高管未来是否只需向智能体交代战略、甚至智能体会反过来指导 CEO 战略”的假设，达拉分享了一则团队内部的真实趣事：Uber 有团队专门训练了一个“Dara AI”模型。由于向 CEO 汇报通常需要经过层层演练和精心打磨 PPT，员工们便先向这个模拟达拉提问风格的模型做汇报预演。当达拉好奇地向员工索要“Dara AI”的代码时，员工却笑着回绝：“不，我们才不给你看。” 当探讨 AI 与人类的根本差距时，达拉指出了当前大语言模型（LLM）架构的致命缺陷：**无法进行实时学习（Real-time Learning）**。 - **预训练与后训练的局限**：现行基础模型依靠海量数据进行预训练，上线后结合真实反馈做微调或后训练。然而模型版本迭代（如从 3.5 到 3.8）并不是模型自身在现实中学习进化的结果，而是工程团队重新抓取数据、训练并发布的产物。 - **人类的核心优势**：人类在交谈和经历中能实时吸收信息并微调行为（哪怕只有 0.1% 的改变）。达拉强调，只有当 AI 具备真正的实时学习能力时，人类才算真正面临“彻底被取代”的危机，但目前尚未有任何模型能够做到这一点。 --- ### [01:23:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5024s) 自动驾驶浪潮：950 万司机的未来与物理 AI 的落地 主持人谈到物理世界的 AI 变革，分享了自己在洛杉矶驾驶特斯拉开启 FSD、双手双脚完全离开控制达两个半小时一路开到约书亚树国家公园（Joshua Tree）的震撼体验。统计数据表明，自动驾驶系统的事故率已明显低于纯人类驾驶。达拉赞同并分析了行业现状：虽然目前纯自动驾驶在复杂场景下仍需人类接管（如他和主持人开特斯拉偶尔都会遇到脱困接管的情况），但“自动驾驶系统 + 人类作为安全备份”的组合，安全性已毫无疑问碾压纯人类驾驶；而在无人驾驶出租车领域，Waymo 在奥斯汀和亚特兰大等地与 Uber 开展合作，其表现也证实比人类驾驶更安全。 全球每年因车祸死亡的人数高达 100 万人（美国本土每年约 3.5 万至 4 万人），自动驾驶技术的成熟将为挽救生命带来巨大的“人道回报”。但这也引出了尖锐的现实：Uber 平台拥有 950 万名司机和配送员，是全球除中国军队之外规模最庞大的灵活就业组织群体。主持人追问，诚实而言，这些司机是否会丢掉工作？ - **时间窗口**：达拉坦言物理 AI（Physical AI）的发展受制于现实规律。汽车制造、传感器硬件装配、监管法规落地以及模型演进均需要时间。预计未来 10 年内不会完全颠覆，但 15 到 20 年后，Uber 平台绝大多数行程很可能由 2000 万辆自动驾驶汽车（AV）或机器人接管。 - **950 万司机的去向**：达拉坦诚地承认“我不知道”。Uber 正在通过扩充平台工种来延缓冲击，从最初的纯出行拓展至送餐、代购跑腿（短期内 AI 难以胜任线下货架选品）。 - **Uber AI Solutions**：Uber 已组建专门团队，让平台上的人员可以直接在手机上参与知识型工作——为 AI 智能体和模型进行标注与训练，探索将运力群体转型为 AI 数据训练师的新路径。 ### [01:27:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5236s) 自动化速度与社会再培训的巨大问号 达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）直言，优步（Uber）目前正致力于拓展平台业务范围，为平台人员创造更多挣钱的门路。然而，眼下最核心的博弈在于：平台将业务扩展到新工作种类的速度，与人工智能（AI）推进自动化的速度之间，究竟哪一个会更快？“摸着良心讲，如果 AI 维持目前的进化速率，在未来的世界里，失业率几乎注定会大幅上升。” 在人类历史的发展脉络中，当旧工种被技术淘汰时，社会总会催生出新的脑力劳动或体力劳动岗位。但眼下的技术浪潮具有前所未有的破坏性——机器同时颠覆了人类的智力与体力两大支柱。达拉指出，对于社会与个体而言，最严峻的挑战在于自我重塑与转岗培训的能力。虽然 AI 本身也能辅助培训，但转型的节奏究竟能否跑赢失业的脚步，是一个巨大的未知数。达拉预测，在接下来的五年内这或许还不会酿成全面危机，但一旦迈入五年之后，它将成为全社会必须直面并承受的剧烈动荡。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: AI Automation vs Social Reskilling Velocity accDescr: 展现自动化推进速度与平台拓展及社会再培训能力之间的博弈与失业风险 subgraph Displacement ["双重冲击与颠覆"] A["传统历史规律: 产生新岗位"] B["当前AI浪潮: 同时颠覆体力与脑力"] A --> B end subgraph Tension ["速度博弈"] C["自动化普及速度"] D["平台业务扩展速度"] E["社会规模化再培训能力"] B --> C D -.->|试图追赶| C E -.->|滞后挑战| C end subgraph Impact ["时间窗口与后果"] F["未来5年内: 局部缓冲期"] G["5年及以后: 严重社会失业危机"] C --> F F --> G end ``` --- ### [01:28:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5302s) 工作的真正意义：全民基本收入为何无法拯救“价值感” 主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）将失业话题与达拉早年全家逃离伊朗、父亲在美失去原有地位的经历联系在一起。达拉脸上神情流露出的正是无数家庭支柱在失去工作时面临的精神危机——工作绝不仅仅关乎金钱报酬，更关乎一个人对自我价值与生命意义的认同。史蒂芬提到一项关于男性自杀遗书的澳大利亚研究，许多留信的核心痛点都是“觉得自己对家庭已无价值”，其极端想法甚至是“如果我不在了，我的家人反而会过得更好”。当机器全面取代了人类的肌肉与大脑，人们该去何处寻找自身存在的意义？ 针对硅谷科技圈常提的“全民基本收入（UBI）将解决一切”的论调，达拉毫不客气地反驳，指出几乎所有 UBI 试点测试最终都以糟糕的社会结果告终。 - **被动拿钱 vs 成果导向**：在一些对照实验中，一组普通人无条件领钱，另一组不领钱；领钱组在长期的生活成效和心理状态上反而表现得更差。 - **市场压力催生自我价值**：迫使人们去工作、去拼搏的市场压力，恰恰是塑造“自我价值感”的催化剂。 - **成就感无可替代**：无论是成功供养家庭、创造出卓越的艺术品，还是成为一名优秀的父母，当个体通过克服困难创造价值时，才会产生支撑其活下去的内在动力。“光靠政府从天上大把撒钱，根本拯救不了社会的心灵危机。” --- ### [01:30:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5452s) 撕下公关面具：为什么公开对话必须讲真话 史蒂芬对达拉的坦率表示由衷钦佩。他指出，许多公司 CEO 在私下交谈时都对 AI 即将带来的毁灭性颠覆感到心惊胆战，可一旦站上 CNBC 的演播室或达沃斯论坛的舞台，就立刻换上一副云淡风轻的面孔，宣称“一切都会好的，人类总能解决”。这种行为本质上是在逃避责任，因为这些高管担心一旦拉响警报，就会拖累公司的股价、融资和技术创新步伐。 达拉随即分享了一段有趣的往事。有一次在 CNBC 接受直播专访后，女主播私下对他说：“你知不知道我真的很喜欢你？因为你居然真的会回答我的问题。”达拉听后哭笑不得，反问道：“难道我不应该回答吗？”他坦言，传统的企业公关训练总在教高管规避尖锐提问并生硬转向公关话术，但他自己发誓绝不搞这套欺骗性的把戏。 > “我不想扯淡（I'm not going to do the BS）。如果台上的主播心知肚明，底下的观众也清清楚楚，我何必装模作样？就算那是一个糟糕棘手的问题，我也会老老实实去回答和面对。” 史蒂芬笑称自己其实不太喜欢采访现任 CEO，因为大部分人都戴着厚厚的公关滤镜。唯有当一位 CEO 愿意像记录日记一样，坦白自己作为父亲的困惑、心理健康、体能管理以及对童年的反思时，真正的深度思想碰撞才有可能发生。 --- ### [01:33:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5591s) 面对自动驾驶：不能因噎废食，必须建造“规模化再培训机器” 在谈到自动驾驶汽车（AV）和 AI 对运输业的重塑时，达拉强调了技术的积极面。他不希望公众只看到技术带来的阵痛，而忽视其对生命的挽救和效率的飞跃： - **挽救生命的安全红线**：机器驾驶在未来必然比人类司机更加安全，有望将美国每年高达 35,000 起的交通事故死亡人数断崖式削减至 3,000 起以下。 - **出行平权与杰文斯悖论（Jevons Paradox）**：AV 将大幅削减出行成本，使即时按需出行服务普及到每一个人。达拉分享了一位用户的真实反馈：优步的普及彻底改变了她年迈母亲的生活，让行动不便的老人拥有了以前无法想象的自由出行能力。随着出行成本降低，全社会的出行总需求反而会被成倍释放。 - **不可逆的全球技术竞赛**：西方社会绝不能选择放慢技术演进的脚步来逃避失业，因为中国等竞争对手绝不会放慢脚步。面对时代洪流，唯一的出路是迎难而上。 达拉肯定了 Anthropic 首席执行官达里奥·阿莫代伊（Dario Amodei）等敢于直言不讳、揭示 AI 风险与挑战的行业领袖。他指出，当前各主权国家面临的最致命短板，是根本没有建立起一种能够“在大规模人群中实现快速转岗再培训”的核心能力机制。全社会亟需将资源集中投建这样一座“再培训机器（Retraining Machine）”，以抵御接踵而至的结构性冲击。 --- ### [01:35:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5707s) 给下一代的生存指南：保持饥饿与好奇，切忌过度规划 谈话最后，史蒂芬向育有四个孩子的达拉发问：“如果你的孩子们跑来问你：‘爸爸，面对 AI 和机器人的未来，我们到底该怎么办？’你会给他们什么建议？” 达拉给出的第一条法则既朴实又坚决：“努力工作（Work hard），你就会没事的。”尽管从算力和耐力上看，AI 在理论上永远比人类更能熬、更不知疲倦，但刻苦所磨炼出的人格韧性依然是立身之本。 更为核心的一条颠覆性建议是：“不要过度规划你的人生（Don't plan）。” - **无心插柳的职业轨迹**：达拉以自身经历为例，当年做投行分析师时，他压根没有成为跨国巨头 CEO 的宏伟蓝图，最终的职业高度完全是抓住机遇、顺势而为的结果。 - **过度规划扼杀好奇心**：那些对职业路径设定了过于严密规划、时刻追求绝对明确性的人，往往会在中途丧失对未知世界的好奇心。 - **确认偏差的心理陷阱**：人类天生倾向于搜寻正面反馈，当别人认同既定规划时会感到舒适，而这种心理机制极易让人画地为牢，在剧变的时代错失真正的时代红利。 ### [01:36:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5761s) 开放心态与职业规划：在改变世界之前，先让世界改变你 达拉·科斯罗萨西（Dara Khosrowshahi）深入剖析了人们在面对与既有认知相冲突的信号时的典型心理：要么选择视而不见，要么咬牙迎难而上，而后者往往令人极不舒服。这种现象在职业规划中尤为普遍。许多人制定了过于严丝合缝的职业路径——比如“我必须在某岁前升为副总裁”、“我必须在几年内赚到多少钱”——这导致他们只会筛选并接纳符合既定计划的信息，彻底丧失了对周围环境的敏锐好奇心，从而错过了足以彻底重塑人生的重大契机。达拉对年轻人的核心告诫是：“在你走出去试图改变世界之前，先让世界改变你（Before you go out and try to change the world, let the world change you first）。”如果像赛马一样戴着眼罩只顾低头狂奔，就无法接收来自真实世界的全方位刺激与输入。 谈及成功背后的因果逻辑，达拉直言，在他漫长的职业生涯中，从未见过任何一个优秀人才的崛起能够脱离“极度努力”这一基石。但他与斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）都坦诚承认，自己最终能走到今天的高位，很大程度上充满了意外与运气的成分。达拉强调，外界常常认为他只是运气好，但他之所以能抓住这些转瞬即逝的幸运节点，核心在于他始终保持着足够的开放性，没有将自己禁锢在僵化的框架中。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 职业发展中的认知路径对比 accDescr: 对比僵化职业规划与保持开放心态在面对世界信号时的不同结果。 subgraph Rigid["僵化规划模式"] A["设定死板目标<br/>（如指定年龄当VP）"] --> B["戴上认知眼罩<br/>只接收符合预期的信号"] B --> C["错失时代机遇与转折点"] end subgraph Open["开放吸收模式"] D["保持极度好奇与开放"] --> E["让世界先改变自己<br/>吸收各方刺激与逆向信号"] E --> F["顺应时势，把握偶然机遇"] end ``` --- ### [01:37:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5849s) 决定接手 Uber：丹尼尔·埃克与父亲的关键建议 斯蒂芬谈到了达拉当年离开 Expedia 转投 Uber 的关键转折，期间达拉受到了两人共同的好友——Spotify 创始人丹尼尔·埃克（Daniel Ek）的深刻启发。达拉回忆道，当时 Uber 正处于全方位的公关与业务危机之中，几乎被公众视作一场彻头彻尾的灾难。与此同时，达拉刚刚与 IAC 董事长巴里·迪勒（Barry Diller）签署了一份条件极其优厚的新合同，他非常热爱在 Expedia 的工作，且与巴里拥有他人生中最棒的商业合作关系。猎头最初致电达拉时，他直接拒绝了。直到在艾伦公司（Allen & Company）的太阳谷峰会上，达拉与埃克深夜小酌，埃克问他猎头是否找过他，并极力推荐他去接手。 当达拉辩解称自己在 Expedia 过得非常幸福、绝不可能跳槽时，埃克用他那标志性的“冷酷北欧眼神”直视着他，掷地有声地说道：“达拉，从什么时候起人生的意义变成了追求快乐？人生的意义在于创造影响力。Uber 是一家伟大的公司，你能够对其产生巨大影响。你必须去做（Dara, since when is life about being happy? It's about making impact. Uber's a great company and you can have an impact on that company. You've got to do this.）。”第二天清晨，达拉立即给猎头回电表示愿意面谈。随后，达拉向自己的父亲征求意见，父亲用波斯语给出了极为精辟朴素的指引：“当一家名字已经变成动词的公司让你去掌舵时，你直接答应就行了（When a company who's a verb tells you to run it, you just say yes）。”在商业世界中，能像 Uber 这样让整个品类都以其名称作为动词（即使叫竞品车辆也会说“打个 Uber”）的企业屈指可数。 - **丹尼尔·埃克的核心逻辑**：人生与顶级领导力的真正度量衡是“影响力（Impact）”，而非安逸与快乐。 - **父亲的动词理论**：成为语言体系中代表行业动作的代名词（Verb），意味着无与伦比的护城河与全球影响力。 - **Uber 人才留存法则**：顶尖人才因 Uber 的极端挑战而来，但最终因为能够亲手塑造对全球运转至关重要的基础设施而选择留下。 --- ### [01:40:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=6009s) 临终遗愿与终极追问：无法重来的父子对话 面对播客保留的“神秘嘉宾提问”环节——“如果能让时间倒流，你最想进行却再也无法进行的一场对话是什么？”，达拉流露出了罕见的脆弱与深情。他坦言自己最想与父亲进行一场真正的长谈。当年他毅然选择从旧金山搬回纽约，正是因为父亲年事已高，心智功能正急剧退化。尽管他庆幸自己陪伴了父亲最后一程，但在那段最后的时光里，眼前的父亲早已不再是当年的他。 达拉深感遗憾的是，他从未真正坐下来与神智清醒的父亲深入探讨过往：父亲年轻时的经历、亲手打拼商业帝国的激情，以及后来被迫失去一切流亡海外所承受的巨大痛苦与遗憾。在达拉成长的岁月中，父子之间固然充满了爱，但从未建立起达拉如今极度渴望能与自己孩子们拥有的那种深刻精神交流。时间永不复返是生命最大的悲剧，但达拉选择将这种不可逆的遗憾转化为当下的生活动力——不仅在家庭中与妻子、孩子构建透明真挚的关系，在职场上也倾注真心与伙伴建立牢固联结，以此作为弥补未能与父亲深入倾谈的自我救赎。 --- ### [01:41:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=6117s) 领导力的终极支柱：极度诚实与真诚待人 斯蒂芬在访谈结尾向达拉表达了极高的敬意，称赞其罕见的“领导力技能栈”：从华尔街投资界起步，历任首席财务官（CFO），成功跨界转型为首席执行官（CEO），并在 Expedia 和 Uber 经历了多次惊涛骇浪般的战略转型，始终能为创业者提供行之有效的决策框架。在所有特质中，斯蒂芬最看重的是达拉身上展现出的“极度诚实（Honesty）”。 达拉由衷地表示，这份诚实与对人的洞察主要归功于他的妻子。他的妻子拥有看透本质的通透智慧——在她眼里，“人人生而为人”，无论地位高低，每个人都要吃饭、排泄、入睡。她对身边的每一个人都一视同仁，绝不因社会地位或财富多寡而区别对待。这种深植于内心的坦诚与平等待人，与达拉父亲当年的为人处世如出一辙，也成为了达拉掌舵千亿美元商业巨舰时最强大的定海神针。 ## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=0s) 别人可能比我聪明、比我有天赋，但我绝不会允许任何人在努力程度上超越我。 — Dara Khosrowshahi > [05:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=324s) 在我内心最深处，我从未真正感到过安全（At my core I never feel safe）。 — Dara Khosrowshahi > [05:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=324s) 永远不要把任何事情视为理所当然，因为就在你掉以轻心的那一刻，脚下的地毯就会被彻底抽走。 — Dara Khosrowshahi > [20:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=1248s) 他们赢了，我们输了，下一个（They won, we lost, next）。 — Barry Diller > [46:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=2814s) 来到 Uber，你必须拼命工作（work your ass off）。我们极具野心、要求极其严苛。如果你想混日子摸鱼，千万别来这里。 — Dara Khosrowshahi > [01:02:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=3765s) 做正确的事，毋庸置疑（Do the right thing, period.） — Dara Khosrowshahi > [01:30:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5452s) 我不想扯淡（I'm not going to do the BS）。如果台上的主播心知肚明，底下的观众也清清楚楚，我何必装模作样？就算那是一个糟糕棘手的问题，我也会老老实实去回答和面对。 — Dara Khosrowshahi > [01:36:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5761s) 在你走出去试图改变世界之前，先让世界改变你（Before you go out and try to change the world, let the world change you first）。 — Dara Khosrowshahi > [01:37:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5849s) 达拉，从什么时候起人生的意义变成了追求快乐？人生的意义在于创造影响力。Uber 是一家伟大的公司，你能够对其产生巨大影响。你必须去做（Dara, since when is life about being happy? It's about making impact. Uber's a great company and you can have an impact on that company. You've got to do this.）。 — Daniel Ek > [01:37:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU&t=5849s) 当一家名字已经变成动词的公司让你去掌舵时，你直接答应就行了（When a company who's a verb tells you to run it, you just say yes）。 — Dara Khosrowshahi 的父亲 ## Mentioned Dara Khosrowshahi, Steven Bartlett, Cristiano Ronaldo, Michael Jordan, Lilly Khosrowshahi, Herbert Allen Jr., Barry Diller, Kaveh Khosrowshahi, Sumner Redstone, Eric Blachford, Garrett Camp, Travis Kalanick, Jeff Bezos, Brian Chesky, Elon Musk, Nikki Krishnamurthy, Ray Kurzweil, Sachin Kansal, Dario Amodei, Daniel Ek, Uber, Expedia, Expedia.com, IAC, IAC Travel, Allen & Company, Paramount, Viacom, Ticketmaster, Match.com, Hotels.com, Amazon, Yahoo, Waymo, Tesla, NVIDIA, Anthropic, Spotify, Shopify, Whoop, Wispr Flow, Gemini 1.5 Pro, The 1% Diary ## Video description Uber CEO Dara Khosrowshahi reveals the future of driverless cars, how he led Uber’s financial turnaround, his family’s escape from Iran in 1978, and the truth about AI, automation, and job loss! Dara Khosrowshahi is the CEO of Uber and successfully transformed the company from losing $3 billion a year to generating over $9 billion in free cash flow. He previously served as CEO of Expedia for over a decade, scaling the company into a global leader in online travel. He explains: ◼️The "wartime" leadership strategy he used to save Uber from collapse ◼️Why telling the uncomfortable truth is the only way to scale a company ◼️His undercover experience as a driver and why it changed the app ◼️Why 80% of jobs face total disruption from AI automation by 2035 ◼️The truth about autonomous vehicles and banning humans from driving 00:00 Intro 03:33 Why Fleeing Iran Shaped My Risk Tolerance And Resilience 10:17 The Hardest Realization About Having Kids And Their Future 16:52 Do Engineers Actually Make Better CEOs — Or Worse? 18:11 How To Spot The One Person Worth Betting Your Career On 19:17 What Separates A Good Employee From A Truly Great One 20:52 Why Rejection Is The Hidden Engine Behind Every Successful Business 26:48 How To Spot Big Transitions Before Everyone Else Does 32:52 The Jevons Paradox: Why Efficiency Can Backfire 39:48 Why Radical Transparency Makes You A Stronger CEO 46:54 Can You Really Turn A Comfortable Team Into A Hungry One? 49:44 Ads 51:11 The Career Advice Young People Need — But Rarely Hear 57:38 How To Build A Culture Of Continuous Improvement That Never Stalls 01:01:55 Why Most Teams Fail At Goals — And How To Set Ones That Actually Work 01:06:58 What Happens When Leadership Alignment Breaks Down 01:13:54 How AI Is Reshaping Our Business — And What We’re Doing Next 01:18:53 Why 90% Of Our Coders Now Rely On AI — And What That Changes 01:23:44 Will AI Replace 9.5 Million Uber Drivers — Or Create Something Bigger? 01:35:06 The Best Advice For Thriving In An AI-Dominated Future Enjoyed the episode? Share this link and earn points for every referral - redeem them for exclusive prizes: https://doac-perks.com Follow Dara: X - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/8IAzCZd The Diary Of A CEO: ◼️Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ◼️Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook ◼️The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt ◼️The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards (Second Edition): https://g2ul0.app.link/f31dsUttKKb ◼️Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt ◼️Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: WHOOP: https://JOIN.WHOOP.COM/CEO for one month free Shopify - https://shopify.com/bartlett Wispr: Get 14 days of Wispr Flow for free at https://wisprflow.ai/STEVEN [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=s52O1JH2tnU)

[0:00] Dara Khosrowshahi: 别人可能比我聪明、比我有天赋，但我绝不会允许任何人在努力程度上超越我。 [5:24] Dara Khosrowshahi: 在我内心最深处，我从未真正感到过安全（At my core I never feel safe）。 [5:24] Dara Khosrowshahi: 永远不要把任何事情视为理所当然，因为就在你掉以轻心的那一刻，脚下的地毯就会被彻底抽走。 [20:48] Barry Diller: 他们赢了，我们输了，下一个（They won, we lost, next）。 [46:54] Dara Khosrowshahi: 来到 Uber，你必须拼命工作（work your ass off）。我们极具野心、要求极其严苛。如果你想混日子摸鱼，千万别来这里。 [62:45] Dara Khosrowshahi: 做正确的事，毋庸置疑（Do the right thing, period.） [90:52] Dara Khosrowshahi: 我不想扯淡（I'm not going to do the BS）。如果台上的主播心知肚明，底下的观众也清清楚楚，我何必装模作样？就算那是一个糟糕棘手的问题，我也会老老实实去回答和面对。 [96:01] Dara Khosrowshahi: 在你走出去试图改变世界之前，先让世界改变你（Before you go out and try to change the world, let the world change you first）。 [97:29] Daniel Ek: 达拉，从什么时候起人生的意义变成了追求快乐？人生的意义在于创造影响力。Uber 是一家伟大的公司，你能够对其产生巨大影响。你必须去做（Dara, since when is life about being happy? It's about making impact. Uber's a great company and you can have an impact on that company. You've got to do this.）。 [97:29] Dara Khosrowshahi 的父亲: 当一家名字已经变成动词的公司让你去掌舵时，你直接答应就行了（When a company who's a verb tells you to run it, you just say yes）。

[19:39] Barry Diller: They won, we lost, next. [26:48] Dara Khosrowshahi: Humans think about success and transitions in a linear way because time is linear... But company success and momentum, especially with new technologies, move in an exponential way. [36:05] Dara Khosrowshahi: I said, 'Well, if I miss hiring the third person to run the biggest parts of our business, then you should fire me.' Barry quickly agreed. 'Yes, of course we will.' [39:48] Dara Khosrowshahi: If I'm going to err with my company, I'm going to err in telling the truth and potentially scaring someone away. I'll take that. Because if that person doesn't want to face the truth, if he or she's not up for the fight, then they should go someplace else. [51:02] Dara Khosrowshahi: They may be smarter, more talented, etc. But I'm not going to let anyone outwork me. [55:40] Dara Khosrowshahi: When I joined Uber, Uber was losing 2.5 to 3 billion per year. Now it generates 8.5 billion in free cash flow every year... 9.8 in the last year, but just who's counting. Dara Khosrowshahi: Do the right thing, period. [66:28] Dara Khosrowshahi: Go get it [66:28] Dara Khosrowshahi: Great minds don't think alike [66:28] Uber founders/veterans: the most idiotic thing on Earth [66:28] Dara Khosrowshahi: Why the hell not try it? [86:32] Dara Khosrowshahi: Market forces that force someone to work then create a perception of self-value... That value is what keeps people going. And I don't think that the government raining money down on society is going to help. [96:06] Dara Khosrowshahi: let the world change you first [97:29] Daniel Ek: Dara, since when is life about being happy? It's about making impact. [97:29] Dara Khosrowshahi's father: When a company who's a verb tells you to run it, you just say yes. [101:57] Dara Khosrowshahi's wife: people are people—they eat, they crap, they have to go to sleep.

[0:00] You come to Uber, you're going to work [0:01] your ass off, and if you're not [0:03] performing, we're going to let you know. [0:04] But do you ever worry that they might [0:05] not be able to deal with the truth? Then [0:07] they can leave. Because the most [0:09] important skill in life is [music] the [0:10] skill of working hard. And when you see [0:12] the top athletes, Ronaldo, Michael [0:14] Jordan, of course they're talented, but [0:17] [music] the thing that's different about [0:18] them is they work their asses off. And [0:21] that's a learned skill. That's not [0:23] something you're born with. You may be [0:24] smarter, more talented, etc., but I'm [0:26] not going to let anyone outwork [music] [0:28] me. With that mentality, when you joined [0:30] Uber, it was 3 billion per year. Now it [0:32] generates 8.5 billion in free cash flow [0:35] every year. But it seems that you were [0:36] forged in such a way that you were going [0:38] to be relentless. Yeah. And it really [0:40] started with being born in Iran. With [0:42] the Islamic Revolution in 1978, we were [0:45] [music] not safe there. And I remember [0:46] at one point we had these revolutionary [0:48] guards come into the backyard, and [0:50] bullets went through our living room. So [0:52] my family came to the US to rebuild [0:54] [music] [0:55] their lives. You were 8, 9 years old? [0:57] >> Yeah. And it really destroyed my dad. [1:00] Sorry. Me. [1:04] It's tough for me to talk about it. [1:07] It's okay. [1:11] All right, let me try again. Seeing that [1:13] has put me on a road where I just wanted [1:15] to make my family proud. So I studied [1:17] bioelectrical engineering, and then my [1:19] first job was in lesson banking, and I [1:21] got to see the process of big companies [1:23] [music] being built. And then I had the [1:24] opportunity to take over Expedia. And in [1:27] your 12 years as CEO, Expedia sales [1:28] increased [music] from 2.1 billion to [1:30] 8.8 billion, and you were the highest [1:32] paid CEO of a US tech company. And I [1:34] left it all behind to go to Uber. And I [1:36] want to get into practical [music] [1:37] company building, how you would get that [1:39] company to work hard, and create a [1:40] culture of continuous improvement, [1:42] [music] and all that stuff. But there's [1:43] lately that's arrived amongst us, which [1:45] is AI. Now driving, I think is one of [1:47] the biggest employers in the world, like [1:49] as a profession. [music] I mean, we've [1:50] got 9 and a half million drivers and [1:52] couriers on our platform. Those drivers [1:53] and couriers that you have will be out [1:55] of work. Being honest about the [1:57] situation, what do the 9 million people [1:58] do? [2:03] Guys, I've got a quick favor to ask you. [2:05] We're approaching a significant [2:06] subscriber milestone on this show, and [2:08] roughly 69% of you that listen and love [2:11] this show haven't yet subscribed for [2:13] whatever reason. If there was ever a [2:15] time for you to do us a favor, if we've [2:16] ever done anything for you, giving you [2:18] value in any way, it is simply hitting [2:20] that subscribe button. And it means so [2:22] much to myself, but also to my team, cuz [2:24] when we hit these milestones, we go away [2:25] as a team and celebrate. And it's the [2:27] thing, the simple, free, easy thing you [2:28] can do to help make this show a little [2:30] bit better every single week. So, that's [2:32] the favor I would ask you. And um if you [2:35] do hit the subscribe button, I won't let [2:36] you down, and we'll continue to find [2:38] small ways to make this whole production [2:40] better. Thank you so much for being part [2:42] of this journey. Means the world, and uh [2:44] yeah, let's do this. [2:47] >> [music and singing] [2:49] >> Dara, [2:50] you lead one of the most [2:53] consequential, interesting, talked about [2:55] companies of my generation. [2:59] It's worth hundreds of billions of [3:00] dollars last time I checked. And it's uh [3:03] it's a company that I use every single [3:04] day. Thank you. I've looked through your [3:06] story. You were the CEO of Expedia Mhm. [3:09] at one point. [3:10] >> Yes. [3:10] You're currently the CEO of Uber, and [3:12] you've turned that company from a [3:14] a loss-making company to a highly [3:16] profitable company, and one that has [3:18] continued to [3:19] be successful through such a great time [3:21] of transition. I [3:24] Your story starts in a very interesting [3:25] way. [3:26] >> Mhm. [3:28] And I was, you know, when I start doing [3:29] the research for guests sometimes, I I I [3:31] think I come in with some kind of [3:32] presumption that you like grew up in [3:33] California, you went to Stanford, etc. [3:35] But that is not the case. Can you take [3:37] me to that earliest context so I can [3:38] understand [3:42] how and why you are the way that you [3:44] are? [3:44] >> [laughter] [3:45] >> Uh quite the quite the starting [3:47] questions, but but but I'll try. I I [3:49] think that for me [3:51] the [3:53] events that shaped my life and maybe a [3:56] part of who I am really started with [3:59] my being born in Iran. [4:01] And Iran at the time was modernizing, [4:03] becoming a modern society. [4:05] And my family built [4:08] a pretty big industrial company that [4:11] that everyone was quite proud of in [4:13] Iran. We lost all of that [4:16] with the revolution in 1978. [4:20] And my family had to come to the US [4:23] to rebuild their lives. You had to come [4:27] to the US. We were not safe there. One [4:31] of my uncles actually was a cabinet [4:33] member of the Shah's who had just been [4:36] toppled. [4:37] And at one point we had uh [4:40] uh these revolutionary guards come into [4:44] the backyard. They were actually going [4:46] after our neighbor's house. Uh and one [4:48] of their guns went off and bullets went [4:51] through our living room. [4:52] Uh shattered the glass in the living [4:54] room and at that point my mom's like, [4:56] "We're not safe being here." So we had [4:57] to [4:58] come to the US. [5:00] And I do think that event to some extent [5:02] has shaped not just me but my family [5:05] in that the rebuilding [5:08] of our lives, [5:10] um of our uh economic lives to some [5:13] extent where we're all trying to rebuild [5:15] what we lost in Iran. Do you look back [5:17] on that and and can you identify any [5:20] sort of fingerprints that were left on [5:21] you from that time that have defined you [5:22] in a business capacity? [5:24] I think at my core I never feel safe. [5:28] You know, when the the experience of [5:30] losing everything and and for the kids, [5:32] I I tell you, it was fine for the kids. [5:35] But seeing my parents lose everything [5:37] and and it really destroyed my dad. You [5:39] know, it really [5:41] his losing his value to the world as he [5:45] saw it, [5:46] um, really hurt [5:49] his inner being. [5:52] And I do think to some extent seeing [5:54] that [5:55] has put me on a road where I want to [5:58] rebuild, I want to make my family proud, [6:00] but at the same time [6:03] I never that feeling of having the [6:06] floor, you know, the rug pulled out of [6:08] you at building everything, that's a [6:10] feeling that never leaves you. I think I [6:13] think Americans [6:15] underestimate [6:17] what this place represents [6:19] in its ideals, right? Which is if you [6:21] build something it's yours, there's a [6:22] rule of law, can't be taken away from [6:24] you. That is not true for the majority [6:26] of the population of the world. [6:29] And so I think for me there's a drive to [6:32] build [6:34] and it's at the same time never ever [6:37] ever taking anything for granted, never [6:39] being satisfied [6:40] because the minute you take these for [6:42] granted then that rug can be pulled out [6:44] from under you. [6:45] On your father, there was a a moment a [6:47] couple of years, I think six years, [6:48] where he got trapped in Iran and wasn't [6:50] granted an exit visa. Yes. [6:53] And I imagine at that time your mother [6:54] was raising you alone here in New York [6:56] City. Yeah, [clears throat] in [6:57] Tarrytown, New York, 45 minutes north of [6:59] New York City. [7:00] But she she went from [7:03] a life of never having to work to she [7:05] had to become a sales person to make [7:07] some money [7:08] and she did it all herself and she [7:10] really stepped up. So I think it shaped [7:12] us. It was difficult in some ways. I I [7:15] miss my dad. I remember when he left, he [7:17] was like a giant compared to me and then [7:19] when he came back it was my sophomore [7:22] year at college [7:24] and he still saw me as a kid. And so he [7:26] wanted to drive me to, uh, to college [7:29] and and he did and then he's like, "You [7:31] want to hang out?" I'm like, "Dad, can [7:34] you get out of here? I want to hang out [7:35] with my kids." I was with my friends. I [7:36] was excited to go back to school [7:38] and it was just it it was sad seeing the [7:41] change, you know, of a man who had [7:44] gotten older. [7:46] His time in Iran was really tough on [7:47] him. He had a heart attack on the plane [7:49] coming back. So, he was a diminished [7:51] person to some extent. Um but [7:55] it was great that I had many, many years [7:56] with him, you know, since then. [7:58] When he was away, when he was trapped in [8:00] Iran and wasn't able to exit, [8:03] your mother Lilly Yes. [8:05] referenced how you didn't mention him [8:07] much. [8:08] But when he returned, you broke down in [8:11] tears. [8:22] It's okay. [8:23] Yeah, no, don't be. [8:27] He was a [8:29] very stoic man. [8:33] It's okay. [8:39] Sorry. [8:41] Passed away a couple of years ago, so [8:43] it's tough for me to talk about it. [8:46] It's okay. [8:57] All right, let me try again. He was a [8:58] very stoic man. [9:00] Um so, he [9:02] kept it [9:04] all inside. [9:06] And we were taught to do the same thing. [9:09] Uh but we wrote letters together. [9:10] They're beautiful letters. He wrote [9:12] poetry. So, I communicated with him in [9:14] Iran. But [9:16] there's [9:18] um [9:19] expression of feelings and kind of [9:22] uh frustration [9:24] uh [9:25] were not something that my family did. [9:28] You know, you just dealt with the [9:29] situation. And so, yeah, I I think I [9:31] suffer from uh over stoicism and then [9:34] breaking down every once in a while, as [9:35] you just saw. [9:39] It's a [9:41] a familiar story of the the men that [9:42] I've interviewed that grew up with [9:44] that kind of sort of emotional composure [9:47] enforced and um modeled to them. Yeah, I [9:50] don't know if it was enforced. Like it [9:51] wasn't Implicitly. [9:53] >> Actually, yeah. Like we were very loving [9:54] family. [9:56] But my father was very humble. [9:59] Um he did not believe that just because [10:01] you're in a position of power, you [10:02] should kind of project that power. You [10:03] should communicate that to everyone. [10:06] And there was a stoicism inside my [10:07] family, which is don't complain. You [10:10] know, um [10:12] So they it was it was a weird [10:13] combination of stoicism and love at the [10:15] same time. [10:17] How does um cuz I'm not a father yet. [10:19] Yes. But I I'm approaching [10:22] Congratulations. Almost. Yeah, almost. [10:24] Yeah. I've just proposed to my fiancee [10:25] and we're you know, we're in the process [10:27] now of [10:28] you know, bringing children into the [10:29] world, hopefully. And it's one of the [10:31] things I think a lot about, which is how [10:32] do I stop my own stoicism [laughter] [10:36] passing on to my children? [10:39] First of all, [10:40] fatherhood, parenthood is is so [10:43] humbling. [10:44] You have such a picture in your mind as [10:48] to how you're going to raise your [10:49] family, what your kids are going to be [10:50] like. [10:51] And they just become their own people. [10:54] And it's such a beautiful process to [10:57] see. And at first there's this alarm, oh [11:00] my god, I'm losing control. You know, [11:02] I've I've done everything, you've [11:03] planned everything. This is how I'm [11:05] going to raise kids, but then real life [11:07] gets in the way. It is absolutely [11:09] exhausting. So you probably execute on [11:12] 80% of your plan. You're 20% imperfect [11:15] cuz you are exhausted and you're [11:17] working, you got a career or often some [11:19] people do. [11:20] And at some point you see these kids [11:24] kind of move off into this completely [11:27] unexpected territory. And there's a [11:29] point for me it was like [11:31] I I'm a bit of a control freak, so I'm [11:33] like, this is not good. They're kind of [11:34] doing their own thing, but then you you [11:36] step back and you're like, this is it's [11:38] absolutely gorgeous what's happening. [11:40] So, the advice that I would just give in [11:42] terms of being a parent is just spend [11:44] the time with the kids. You know, it is [11:47] that is the magic is not [clears throat] [11:48] what you do um or or the particular [11:52] tactics, but it's the investment in them [11:55] and the time spent with them and the [11:57] rest, you know, you can't control, but [11:59] what you can't control is kind of that [12:00] connection. Mhm. I um speaking of [12:03] children, I went back and looked through [12:06] lots of different photos of where you [12:07] lived and where you grew up to try and [12:08] get a picture of your world in an early [12:10] context. And all these photos look [12:12] incredibly incredible I think that's [12:13] your fifth birthday. [12:15] Oh, wow. I had hair back then. [12:18] >> [laughter] [12:18] >> You had a lot of hair. [12:19] >> My mom loved to dress us up in like [12:21] little doll outfits. I can tell. There's [12:23] another one of you in Oh, lord. Look at [12:26] that. I'm definitely not going to do [12:28] that to my kids. [12:29] Age four in London. Yes. [12:31] >> Photo of you. [12:32] >> Yes. [12:33] You and your cousins. [12:34] >> Yes. Little photo. Family was everywhere [12:36] for us. And I got another one with a a [12:38] beautiful haircut there. [12:40] >> [laughter] [12:41] >> It was a great childhood. It was [12:43] amazing. I spoke to your mom. [12:46] Lilly. [12:46] >> I hope uh well, how did it go? [12:48] >> [laughter] [12:49] >> We'll see. [12:50] She said um I'll play the audio file [12:52] just so people can hear it. When he was [12:55] very little, he told me that he wants to [12:58] do something important in the world, and [13:02] he said becoming wealthy is not his [13:06] priority, but making a change is. I [13:10] can't say I remember that conversation. [13:12] >> [laughter] [13:14] >> But the [13:16] one of my early experiences that really [13:20] imprinted on me was we went to visit one [13:22] of my dad's factories, family factories. [13:25] My dad was in charge of designing [13:26] factories, building them, operating [13:28] them. [13:29] And [13:30] the respect [13:32] that that population, the factory, had [13:36] for him and the visit and how excited [13:38] they were that his family was visiting [13:40] was just really cool. And and the way [13:42] that he treated he knew everyone's name. [13:45] He treated them with such respect. It [13:47] just it really imprinted on me. There [13:49] was this care. It wasn't the boss is [13:52] coming and there's fear. [13:55] And so for me like that [13:57] ability to build a life where you have [14:01] impact on a lot of people, but it's it's [14:04] positive kind of building impact. You [14:06] have the [14:07] broad respect of of these folks. It [14:09] really imprinted on me. So I I always [14:11] wanted [14:12] you know, when we came to the States [14:15] making money was important. I don't want [14:17] to kind of BS and say like oh, I didn't [14:19] care about it because we lost [14:20] everything. [14:22] And so my first job was like investment [14:24] banking. What do Go to investment [14:25] banking, have fun, but [14:28] make money, right? And so that was a [14:31] priority for me. But then as I matured [14:33] in life, as I knew [14:35] I had safety in terms of okay, yes, I [14:37] know I can do that. I can make money. I [14:39] can provide for my family. I can support [14:40] my mom and dad. Then [14:44] building kind of an enterprise, having [14:46] that feeling that I saw with my father, [14:48] that connection with his team [14:51] uh was something that became really [14:52] important to me. [14:55] When you came to New York, you were [14:56] what? 8, 9 years old? [14:57] >> 9 years old, yes. If I'd asked you at 9 [14:59] years old when you arrived in New York, [15:01] what you wanted to do when you're older, [15:02] what would you have said? [15:03] I have no idea. I want to make my dad [15:05] proud. [15:07] That was it. I wasn't kind of motivated [15:10] for a specific target at all. I just [15:13] wanted to make my family proud. [15:15] Why I want to make my dad proud? [15:19] He's always been an important figure in [15:21] uh in my life. You know, that there's [15:24] this [15:25] um [15:26] And and I think part of it is that I [15:28] never got to know him that well [15:30] as an individual, you know, cuz he was [15:32] obviously [15:34] when I was younger, he was working all [15:36] the time. So, he would show up once in a [15:37] while for dinner, etc. We always had [15:39] family dinners together. [15:41] And then he went away. [15:43] And then I worked. So, I never really [15:45] got to know the person that he was. [15:48] But, I don't know. There There's kind of [15:50] this sense of duty. There's There's a [15:52] hope that [15:54] you know, he's he's somewhere or maybe [15:56] he's not some place. But, that making my [15:59] father proud has always been a strong [16:01] current undercurrent in my life. [16:04] So, you're 9 years old. You've arrived [16:05] in New York City. Um you do end up going [16:08] off to college sometime later. Yes. I [16:10] went to Brown University, studied [16:11] engineering there. How did you think [16:13] about that choice at that time and how [16:16] determinant that was of your trajectory [16:17] in your life? That decision to go to [16:18] that university and study that subject. [16:21] My father always said, you can do [16:23] anything in your life as long as either [16:25] you're a doctor or an engineer. [16:27] And I picked engineering. I just loved [16:29] the problem-solving aspect of [16:32] engineering and all the layers of [16:35] equations, etc. And those equations [16:36] being able to represent something in [16:38] real life and then magically that [16:41] something in real life following what it [16:42] should theoretically. Like, the [16:44] problem-solving aspect of engineering [16:46] fascinated me. I absolutely loved it. [16:49] Uh and I think it serves me to this day. [16:52] Engineers make good CEOs. [16:54] Great CEOs. If you step back, [16:57] companies are just machines, right? [16:59] They're They're machines that are run by [17:01] people. [17:02] And over a period of time, you actually [17:06] try to automate some of the stuff that [17:08] the people do. And then you send the [17:09] people off to do new stuff that can't be [17:11] automated. Like, we are rules-based. [17:13] Like, it's it's an organism and it's a [17:15] machine at the same time. And to some [17:18] extent the job of that the CEO is [17:21] engineering. How do I set up the company [17:25] to achieve the goals that, you know, I [17:28] set for our shareholders set for my [17:29] board sets sets for. It's a giant [17:32] engineering problem. And And to me [17:33] that's like fascinating. The putting [17:35] together the pieces to get to [17:38] what you perceive to be the goal. And [17:40] one of the really important things is [17:41] you got to pick the right goals. Mhm. Um [17:44] that is one giant problem-solving [17:46] engineering challenge and it's one of [17:47] the most fascinating parts of my job. I [17:49] want to get into that. The the practical [17:52] company building, how you organize an [17:54] organization to be a well-functioning [17:56] machine, setting goals and all that [17:57] stuff. [17:58] After after college you go into [18:01] investment banking for a period of time. [18:02] Yeah, I worked there for 8 years in risk [18:06] arbitrage to begin with and then mergers [18:08] and acquisition advisory work as well. [18:11] And that experience I I was reading [18:12] taught you about betting on people. Yes. [18:15] >> What do you mean by betting on people? [18:17] And why is that important? It was a It [18:19] was actually a lesson that I learned [18:20] from Herbert Allen who was running Allen [18:23] & Company at the time. It It was the the [18:26] the Allen's family started the company. [18:29] And he always told me and and at the [18:32] time I didn't really listen to him. He [18:33] always said, "Dara, [18:35] always bet on people. Companies go There [18:38] are good companies, bad companies, but [18:40] great people stay great all the time." [18:43] And one of the things that made Allen & [18:45] Company was really special, you know, [18:47] investment banking can be a dog-eat-dog [18:49] sport. [18:51] But Allen & Company really cultivated [18:54] relationships with people whom they [18:57] perceived to be great both in terms of [19:00] potential and in terms of character. And [19:03] of all the investment banks, that [19:04] loyalty, that making a bet on a person [19:07] and then staying with them through their [19:09] whole careers [19:11] is a pattern of how that place works. [19:14] Uh and it's definitely something that [19:17] that I learned there. What is it about [19:18] one's character that makes them qualify [19:19] as a great person? Uh you look for [19:22] success. [19:23] Honor, loyalty, people who will tell you [19:26] what they're going to do, whether it's [19:27] good or bad, and then follow through on [19:29] their promises. [19:30] Hard work I'm surprised that wasn't [19:32] mentioned as Well, that comes with [19:33] success, right? Talent and hard work. [19:35] You put it those two together. And why [19:37] did you leave Allen & Company? [19:39] I left Allen because I met Barry Diller. [19:41] Uh he was a client of mine. We got to [19:44] meet in uh [19:46] big kind of [19:49] deal uh unfriendly uh hostile tender [19:51] offer for Paramount at the time. It's [19:54] that there's another one happening, I [19:56] guess, for Paramount uh now as we speak. [19:59] And he was the one person I thought I [20:01] was going to be Allen & Company. I [20:02] thought I was going to be there forever. [20:04] My older brother, Kaveh, is in Allen & [20:06] Company. He has It's the only job he's [20:08] had in his life. [20:09] But Barry was the one person who I [20:13] thought, you know, if I get a chance to [20:14] work for this person, I'm I'm I'm going [20:16] to jump at it, and I did. Why? [20:18] Why Barry? [20:19] He He's spectacular. I mean, he was [20:21] spectacular. He is spectacular. A doer, [20:24] you know, he he I I met him in a [20:27] circumstance where he lost. It was It [20:29] was this giant hostile tender offer. [20:31] Bids going back and forth between [20:34] uh the the winner, Viacom, and and [20:36] Barry. Ultimately, Barry stepped away. [20:40] And we were planning uh an announcement. [20:44] You know, and and you can imagine all [20:45] these like fancy PR people [20:48] sitting around a table. How do we [20:50] present a loss as a win, right? [20:52] >> So, he bid for a company, he didn't get [20:54] it. [20:54] >> He didn't get it, and and he walked [20:55] away. He didn't get it cuz he walked [20:57] away, which in hindsight was a was a [20:58] mistake. He could have paid more. [21:00] Uh and then in the release where he [21:02] walked away, uh I think the release was [21:05] they won, we lost, next. And he was a [21:09] constant motion machine. Like, they won, [21:12] we lost, next. What's next? Let's go. [21:15] And that's the kind of person I wanted [21:16] to work for. [21:19] In business, losing is part of the game. [21:21] >> Absolutely. Absolutely. But But then [21:23] calling it out. You know, not [21:25] bullshitting. [21:26] Not like, oh, we tried our best in the [21:28] circumstances. They won, we lost, next. [21:32] It's okay. [21:33] Does it matter how you lose? [21:35] Absolutely it does. They absolutely it [21:37] does. It It's And And I find companies [21:40] guilty of two things. Like, one is [21:43] ignoring losses. Like, papering over [21:45] losses, et cetera, right? And then [21:47] sometimes [21:48] being obsessive about the loss. You [21:51] know, inspecting it, what happened, [21:54] let's do a summary, let's meet, what [21:56] went wrong, et cetera. And And you know, [21:59] for me, it's somewhere in the middle, [22:00] which is recognize why you lost, [22:03] recognize that you lost, say it cuz it's [22:05] important to say it, [22:07] analyze it, but then move on. Like, [22:10] let's move on. And the next time [22:13] you hope to [22:16] have learned some kind of judgment to [22:17] avoid that kind of a loss, but it [22:20] doesn't mean you're going to avoid [22:21] losing at all. Like, if you're not [22:22] taking shots, you're not missing, you're [22:24] you're not losing. So, for me, it's [22:27] constantly moving and taking your shots, [22:29] losing, learning, next, losing, [22:32] learning, next. That constant motion is [22:34] what I want to see. Um that constant [22:36] motion and learning is what excites me. [22:40] This is business advice, but also life [22:41] advice generally, because a lot of [22:42] people um who I meet will come up to me [22:44] and ask me questions about things often [22:46] ask questions that sounded a lot like [22:47] what you just said. It's dealing with [22:49] rejection, dealing with taking an L, and [22:52] how that L then stays with them, [22:53] sometimes for a decade, sometimes for 15 [22:56] years, and and holds them back. Hurts [22:58] their confidence, means that they don't [23:00] take it any more shots. [23:02] And this can cause a sort of a downward [23:03] confidence [23:05] spiral. [23:05] >> Totally. And and listen, I'm I'm talking [23:07] a big game, but I will tell you in my [23:09] personal life, I can't deal with the [23:11] rejection. I have a really hard time [23:13] dealing with the rejection. Professional [23:14] life, no problem whatsoever. So, it's [23:17] like in the end we're all humans after [23:19] all. You have a a difficulty dealing [23:21] with rejection in your personal Very [23:22] much. Yeah, yeah. [23:23] >> of rejection? [23:24] Any kind of rejection, conflict, like [23:26] it's it's something that has been uh [23:29] that I fought my whole life, which is [23:31] because I was one of the younger [23:33] cousins, because I was the youngest [23:36] brother, I just kind of didn't have [23:37] rights. [23:39] So, I was I went with the flow. [23:42] And going with the flow means you're [23:44] going with the current, etc. I didn't [23:46] cause trouble. [23:47] And that has followed me in my personal [23:52] life. In my professional life, I don't [23:53] have as much trouble there. I guess my [23:55] professional life to some extent is a [23:56] mask because I get to be aggressive. I [24:00] get to lose, etc. It's something that [24:02] Sid, my wife, has really helped me with, [24:05] but it is something in my personal life [24:08] that generally I'm conflict avoidant. [24:10] You're conflict avoidant in your [24:11] personal life. Interesting. [24:12] >> yeah, definitely. Hmm, that's not [24:14] [clears throat] good in a relationship. [24:15] No, no. That's why that's why Sid's [24:18] helping me out. I'm much better now. I'm [24:20] much better, but it's [24:21] it's when I [24:23] take those issues on, [24:26] I have to fight myself. [24:27] There's some core, you know, if if you [24:30] and I were having an issue, Yeah. and I [24:31] was sitting down with you and saying, [24:33] "Hey, I'm not I'm not happy about X or [24:34] Y." [24:35] I can feel there's a core in me saying, [24:38] "Just let it go." [24:40] But that's how resentment [24:41] builds, and that's how relationships [24:44] um over a long period of time start [24:47] moving the wrong way. So, it is [24:48] something that is at my core, but I [24:50] actively fight. Uh and I'm getting [24:53] better at it, but I'm still on the [24:54] learning journey there, I'll tell you [24:55] that. Eventually, you go on to becoming [24:57] the CEO of Expedia. Yes. [24:59] >> After um I mean, there was a couple of [25:01] CEOs that came before you, but you you [25:02] became the third and [25:04] took that company on. Very different job [25:06] going from investment banking to being a [25:08] CEO. Yeah. Yeah, now there was a journey [25:10] there because I went from banking to [25:13] running deals, and I knew that I knew [25:17] that I I liked how companies worked. The [25:19] thing that I liked about investment [25:21] banking was that I got to see a lot. [25:24] There I got to see really smart people, [25:26] really cool companies built. [25:30] But, [25:31] I couldn't go along with that journey. I [25:33] was jealous of the journey that these [25:34] CEOs were were moving on. So, then when [25:38] M&A was a bridge to work at a company [25:41] and build uh the company, I moved from [25:43] M&A to CFO, chief financial officer, [25:46] because that's uh that's that's to some [25:48] extent finance, but it's also [25:51] being the CEO's partner and helping the [25:53] CEO build. So, I I always knew the [25:55] direction that I want to go in, which [25:57] is, "Hey, at some point I want to [25:58] actually be an operator." And then I had [26:01] the opportunity to take over Expedia. [26:03] The CEO of the time, Eric Blachford, [26:05] kind of said, "Yeah, big company thing [26:07] not for me." [26:08] So, he resigned. [26:09] And [26:11] honestly, uh Barry didn't have an [26:12] alternative. Barry was the owner Uh [26:14] Barry was the CEO and chairman of IAC, [26:19] which was a parent company of what [26:22] became Expedia, IAC Travel. The head of [26:24] IAC Travel resigned. I raised my hand [26:28] and said, "Maybe I could do it." [26:29] Barry was desperate. He had no one else. [26:32] So, he promoted me to be CEO of IAC [26:34] Travel, and IAC Travel was going through [26:36] some difficult times, so we spun it off [26:39] as at at Expedia. So, that's when I [26:41] became the CEO of Expedia, the public [26:43] company, and I moved to the Netherlands [26:46] of of Seattle. And your job just before [26:49] you took on that role as CEO, you were [26:51] buying businesses. So, M&A is mergers [26:54] and acquisitions. You were buying [26:55] companies. [26:55] >> Yes. What are some of the companies that [26:57] you bought? Oh, we bought a lot of [26:58] companies. We bought Ticketmaster. [27:01] We bought match.com. [27:03] We bought Expedia, hotels.com. And And [27:05] it was all about the theme that Barry [27:08] and I were [27:10] fascinated with was the movement of [27:13] commerce online. You know, it was It was [27:15] during that time. It was that late late [27:18] '90s, early 2000. [27:19] And And we saw it happening with our [27:22] very own eyes, really, with home [27:24] shopping, right? It was It's a flat [27:26] screen. It was a television. And you [27:28] were offering products. And people were [27:30] calling up, buying those products [27:32] electronically. [27:33] And just the medium changed. The medium [27:35] changed from a TV screen to an internet [27:38] screen. And instead of calling, you [27:40] could use a HTTP. And so, while the [27:43] medium changed, we kind of saw this [27:46] opportunity to take advantage of the of [27:50] the change of platform. So, match.com [27:52] essentially in the olden days, you know, [27:54] you had online dating, but you would [27:56] call a number. You'd be like, "My name [27:59] is Dara, and I'm 6'2". And this is You'd [28:01] describe yourself. And you'd hear other [28:04] kind of [28:05] recordings. And you would get matched up [28:08] based on someone who seemed nice. And [28:10] all of that just moved online. That was [28:12] what match.com was. Same thing with [28:14] Ticketmaster. You know, in the olden [28:16] days, you would go to a Tower Records. [28:18] Have you ever been to a Tower Records? [28:19] >> Yeah. So, there were these things called [28:21] record stores. [28:22] And they also had a desk where they [28:25] would sell concert tickets. So, you [28:27] would either call for a concert ticket, [28:29] or you would physically go and buy one. [28:31] Amazing. And there were lines, Tower [28:33] Record lines. [28:34] >> And all of that, exactly, moved online. [28:38] And same thing with travel, right? You [28:40] would call a travel agent. And so, all [28:42] of There was this movement of retail and [28:44] phone commerce to online commerce. [28:47] and we identified the early players to [28:51] make that shift and personals, [28:54] ticketing, travel were the ones that we [28:56] went with went for because at at the [28:59] time Amazon was doing everything else [29:01] like physical fulfillment. So, what we [29:03] were going for were essentially [29:06] electronic transactions that did not [29:08] require physical fulfillment. [29:10] And that was travel because, you know, [29:13] it's a virtual good. Ticketing, uh [29:15] match.com which which was personal. So, [29:17] there was a pattern around madness, so [29:20] to speak. But we went out and bought all [29:21] these companies. It was a really great [29:23] time. I've got two questions that emerge [29:24] there. One one is [29:26] again, I'm really interested to [29:27] understand how you would look for talent [29:29] or how what [29:30] how you'd think about what a great [29:31] company is. Are they like we we looking [29:33] at the company culture? Are we looking [29:34] at the founders? Was there something [29:35] else? Was it the profitability? And the [29:37] other one is just really intrigued as to [29:40] what this period of your life and [29:42] thereafter taught you about how to spot [29:44] opportunities in transition. Cuz that is [29:46] a transitional moment of technology. [29:49] And [29:50] I think there is a certain pattern [29:51] recognition one can develop as to like [29:53] know what to bet on in these moments of [29:55] transition where there's huge [29:56] skepticism. The internet's going to not [29:57] going to be anything. It's a So, two [29:59] questions. One is like how do you spot [30:00] great companies? And then the second is [30:02] like patterns in transition. So, they're [30:04] I'd say they're they're related which is [30:05] um we would spot great companies [30:08] just by observing who is taking the lead [30:11] in these transitions. You know, these [30:13] transitions are difficult. You can't [30:15] predict exactly [30:16] where things are going, how quickly [30:18] they're going, how much should you [30:19] invest, what's the return, what uh what [30:21] the what the market how large is the [30:23] market going to be. [30:25] But [30:26] there were companies that were emerging [30:28] as the leaders and we would just I just [30:31] identify the leaders and cold call these [30:33] folks up and say, "I want to come in and [30:34] talk to you." Like that was that was it. [30:36] And to some extent it's a [30:38] self-reinforcing cycle which is yes, the [30:42] great management teams and the great [30:44] founders were the ones who were able to [30:46] identify the opportunity and hit that [30:48] opportunity faster than anyone else, [30:50] recognize that opportunity, and execute [30:52] on that opportunity faster than anyone [30:54] else. So, to some extent, the companies [30:57] who were in the lead [31:00] of course had the best management teams [31:01] and had the best founding teams. And [31:03] when those two things matched, that was [31:05] when we jumped. And then the the last [31:07] thing I would tell you in terms of these [31:09] pattern recognition is that [31:14] we never completed a successful deal [31:17] because we got the company cheap. We [31:20] actually overpaid for every single great [31:23] company that we bought, but we overpaid [31:26] based on what the market thought at the [31:28] time, not what the reality turned out to [31:31] be. So, I do think one of the kind of [31:34] pieces of pattern recognition with me is [31:36] just [31:37] humans [31:39] think about success and transitions in a [31:43] linear way because time is linear. [31:45] So, would you put that for someone that [31:47] doesn't just they think of it going like [31:48] this? [31:48] >> Yeah, you know, it's it's the everything [31:51] kind of moves this way, right? Your your [31:53] schedule is relatively linear, right? [31:55] It's you sleep 7 hours a day. Like your [31:58] life is a linear life. [32:00] But [32:02] company and company success and company [32:03] momentum, especially with new [32:05] technologies where if there's a [32:08] technology that's truly better than the [32:09] other technology, within the virtual [32:12] world there's absolutely no friction [32:13] holding it back. The the these companies [32:17] move in an exponential way in terms of [32:19] their growth and ultimately in terms of [32:21] their value. So, whereas most people [32:25] kind of see things they they when they [32:26] project that to the to the future, they [32:28] see this, what actually happens is this. [32:31] And that's where the opportunity is. [32:33] It's the it's the spread between the [32:35] hockey stick and kind of straight line. [32:37] Mhm. Uh and it's very difficult for [32:39] people to process that. [32:41] And so that was, you know, [32:44] those were the companies that we [32:45] identified that hockey stick and online [32:47] travel was a hockey stick, personals was [32:49] a hockey stick, ticketing was a hockey [32:51] stick. [32:52] I heard about the Is it Jevons paradox? [32:54] Yes. Which I think kind of sort of [32:57] overlaps with what you're saying there. [32:58] When things become easier, faster, [33:00] cheaper, people do them not [33:02] incrementally more, but ex- like [33:04] exceptionally more often. I mean that [33:06] that's the definition of Uber and we can [33:08] get to that at some point. Was uh [33:11] originally it was built as a black cab [33:14] service, so to speak, a black car [33:15] service. [33:16] >> me that that where it came from? Cuz a [33:18] lot of people history is now moved [33:19] forward and people have forgotten the [33:20] story of how it came to be. [33:22] >> Now, to some extent it was it well, to a [33:23] large extent it was that the founding [33:25] was was before me, but it was um [33:28] Garrett Camp who was one of the founders [33:30] had this idea [33:32] uh and I think it was born in Paris. It [33:33] was like a snowy day in Paris and they [33:35] couldn't find a black car and it was a [33:38] bunch of young young tech guys and like, [33:39] "How cool would it be to like pick up my [33:41] phone and call a black car?" And that [33:44] was the the core idea, which is hey, you [33:47] can use your phone to call a black car. [33:49] He brought on uh Travis Kalanick. Travis [33:52] was the operator and and the founder. [33:55] And [33:56] to to your point on Jevons paradox to [33:58] some extent, people thought, "Well, [34:00] what's the size of the black car market [34:03] place?" And it was a couple billion [34:04] dollars. Or what's the size of the taxi [34:06] industry? And it was [34:07] uh [34:08] more than a couple billion dollars. But [34:10] what they didn't see at the time was [34:12] that as you [34:14] improve the if you radically make [34:17] something either more convenient or [34:19] cheaper the market [34:22] expands beyond how you calculate it. So [34:25] the Uber size and scale now is way [34:28] beyond the original marketplace of black [34:30] cars and or taxis. It it's the company [34:33] The company today is a result of Jevons [34:35] paradox. [34:37] Timing. [34:38] We often um we often don't think much [34:40] about the luck of timing. Uh luck is an [34:42] interesting word to use, but how [34:44] important timing is and other sort of [34:46] foundational factors are in enabling a [34:48] company like Uber to exist. [34:50] When you think about the timing of Uber, [34:53] what are the sort of the foundations [34:54] that made it possible? Well, it was it [34:56] was a mobile revolution. It was um [34:59] mobile data technology, the iPhone [35:01] coming together. In the early days, one [35:04] of the geniuses of Trav- of Travis was [35:07] he would hire these market managers who [35:09] would be GMs of new cities that they [35:11] would expand into. [35:12] And they would literally go to the city [35:15] with a back full of iPhones [35:17] and give away iPhones to black car [35:19] drivers to get them to come on Uber [35:22] because at the time a lot of them didn't [35:24] have, you know, they they didn't have [35:26] smartphones, so to speak. So, the onset [35:28] of the of the smart- smartphone was that [35:32] kind of that beautiful magic of timing [35:35] coming together and then aggressiveness [35:37] of that founding team to understand that [35:40] there's a pattern here and I'm going to [35:42] replicate that pattern all the world and [35:44] raise as much capital as I have to to [35:46] get there faster than anyone else. That [35:49] was the magic, but it was, you know, [35:50] again, it's [35:52] yes, there's luck in there, but if that [35:54] founding team hadn't been as aggressive [35:57] and, you know, blitz scaling, which is a [36:00] term that folks used uh all around the [36:02] world, company wouldn't be what it is [36:04] today. [36:05] You transitioned out of investment [36:06] banking into Expedia CFO, then CEO. You [36:09] know, [36:10] there's a stereotype in business that um [36:12] investment bankers and CFOs don't [36:14] necessarily make the best CEOs because [36:16] of [36:17] they might [36:19] stereotypically over financialize. Over [36:21] financialize. Maybe be less risk averse. [36:23] Maybe be like, you know, those kinds of [36:24] things. And when I spoke to Barry, [36:27] he did say the following. I'll just play [36:30] it for you because it's uh [36:31] better coming from him. He was brought [36:33] in as the leader [36:36] because he had [36:38] uh [36:38] he had been coming up until then as had [36:41] been on the financial side of things. [36:43] So, he really had not yet had the [36:47] experience or opportunity to manage [36:49] people. That came in a difficult way to [36:52] him. [36:53] And he mastered it. It didn't take him [36:55] all that long. He mastered how to become [36:58] a leader and he mastered how to take [37:00] ultimate responsibility for a company. [37:03] Yeah, it was um [37:04] growing up under Barry was was And And [37:06] by the way, I I wouldn't be where I am [37:08] today without Not him as a mentor cuz [37:10] he's not like a mentoring kind of guy, [37:12] but him as my leader, learning from him. [37:16] But I say that the experience that [37:17] really really shaped me [37:19] uh as it relates to Expedia was [37:22] I did come in as more of a financial [37:24] leader. Our [37:26] leadership at expedia.com failed. I [37:29] hired a I had to fire the first uh [37:32] person, uh hired a second person, [37:34] complete disaster. [37:36] And so, I was 0 for 2 in terms of hiring [37:39] for our largest business. This business [37:41] was 50% of our profits and I was 0 for 2 [37:43] in uh in hiring. And so, I went to Barry [37:46] and the board and I said, "Well, [37:49] if I miss hiring the third person to run [37:52] the biggest parts of our business, then [37:53] you should fire me." Barry quickly [37:55] agreed. Yes, of course we will. [37:57] So, I said, "Obviously, I don't [37:59] understand enough about the job to find [38:02] the right person. [38:03] So, I think I've got to take the job [38:05] myself for 6 months to a year to [38:08] understand what what is it that the job [38:10] entails for me to then go and and find [38:13] that person." [38:14] And so, [38:15] for what turned out to be I think it was [38:19] 5 or 6 years, I ran both the holding [38:21] company Expedia Inc., which is a public [38:23] company, and I ran Expedia.com. I was [38:26] president of the largest part of the [38:27] company. That experience taught me my [38:30] operating chops. That experience [38:32] actually taught me how is it that you [38:35] operate a company? How is it that you [38:37] run something? And that's a very [38:39] different skill set from capital [38:40] allocation and you know, all the [38:42] financial [38:43] wizardry that people embark on. That's [38:45] important, but the what I discovered was [38:49] operating a company, leading a company, [38:52] organizing it, operating it, setting up [38:54] the goals, [38:55] getting the right team together. That's [38:57] the part of the job that I loved. [39:01] So, it it it took me a while to get [39:03] there. Like, my whole life, my whole [39:05] early career was in this financial [39:07] sector, which I enjoyed, [39:09] but I didn't find my true love, which is [39:14] operations and running companies and [39:16] running a technology company, until way, [39:18] way later in my career. [39:20] Uh and I think to some extent now, I've [39:23] got both. I've got that financial part [39:25] cuz it has to work, but the operations [39:28] and the leadership part of the business [39:29] is something that that I love and and [39:32] watching Barry take responsibility, take [39:36] shots, go against the grain, um as [39:40] aggressively as he consistently did, I [39:42] think has made me a much better operator [39:44] than what the counterfactual would be if [39:46] I had another boss. [39:48] 3 months into that role, the head of HR [39:50] told you that you were scaring people. [39:52] >> [laughter] [39:53] >> I'd forgotten about that. [39:56] I think that was my job, yeah. [39:58] >> [laughter] [39:59] >> What's the context there? You know, the [40:01] context was that [40:04] I [40:05] First of all, turnarounds in technology [40:06] are really hard. [40:08] Uh we were talking about the momentum [40:09] thing where momentum of thought is [40:11] positive. [40:12] In the technology sector, if momentum [40:15] turns negative, [40:17] it is remarkably difficult to turn it [40:20] around. You know, [40:21] Yahoo is [40:23] hanging on, [40:24] but it was the great company, and you [40:26] see where it is now. [40:28] It's brutal when you get it wrong. [40:31] And [40:32] it always takes longer than you think. [40:34] And it goes to, you know, what I was [40:36] talking about linear versus exponential. [40:38] Just like the curves up are exponential, [40:40] curves down are exponential as well. The [40:43] first couple of years, look bad, but [40:46] they're not that bad. [40:47] But [40:48] you know in your mind that 10 years from [40:50] now it's going to be a [ __ ] disaster. [40:54] So, [clears throat] [40:55] what I saw with Expedia was a technology [40:57] company [40:59] whose technology engine was broken. [41:02] Codebase was old, had not been [41:05] reinvested in, technology leadership was [41:07] coasting. [41:09] And [41:10] that really alarmed me. And one of the [41:13] things that I learned from Barry [41:15] in terms of leadership is [41:18] that when, you know, a bell is rung. [41:20] When when you when you see something, [41:22] when you see a pattern, [41:24] you have to act. You can't wait for a [41:26] second. So, in my mind, once I figured [41:29] out, "Oh my god, this really is a [41:30] turnaround. This isn't like a company [41:32] that I've got to tune. This company, if [41:34] I don't move and move hard and fast, is [41:39] is going to start on that exponential [41:41] decay curve." I had to move quickly. And [41:44] at that point in and I am [41:46] one of the skills that I learned from [41:48] Barry is transparency. It's like [41:51] whenever he wanted to understand an [41:53] issue, he wanted to go to the source. [41:55] He didn't want a summary. [41:57] And it didn't matter where that source [41:59] was. Is it a junior analyst or a [42:01] president? He wanted to hear from the [42:03] source because what he didn't want to [42:05] lose is lose the fidelity of the issue. [42:09] You know, when there's an issue here, [42:11] then it goes through the analyst and the [42:13] associate and the vice president and an [42:15] SVP and whatever by the time it's [42:17] summarized for you as the CEO it's just [42:20] it's lost everything. And usually their [42:23] levels are like [42:24] hey do we really want to tell him that? [42:26] Why don't we phrase it this way etc. So [42:28] your whole life as a CEO [42:31] is kind of a [42:33] it's a version of the world that your [42:35] team wants you to see. [42:38] If you got a good team [42:40] usually it has more to do with reality [42:42] than not. But you are subject to your [42:45] team and the information flow that that [42:47] gets to you. And so Barry always wanted [42:49] to go to the source. He would just cut [42:51] through levels cut through levels get to [42:55] the core of the idea and then once he [42:57] did he would move and he would move [42:59] fast. [43:01] And for me I've kind of I have held on [43:05] to that. But I've also turned it the [43:07] other way which is [43:09] one of the ways in which I can depend on [43:12] getting the real [ __ ] from you [43:14] is my being honest with you. [43:16] Right? And and human beings are good [43:20] [ __ ] you know kind of kind of kind [43:21] of meter so so to speak. And and when [43:24] you're the CEO and you're talking to [43:26] your staff and you're giving all the you [43:29] know the business talk and we're doing [43:31] this but the last quarter we had some [43:33] certain challenges and this and that [43:36] they see you bullshitting them. [43:38] And so why the hell should they tell you [43:40] the truth? Right? If they're if their [43:42] boss isn't telling them the good stuff [43:44] why should they give the good stuff back [43:46] to the boss? [43:47] So for me [43:49] it it was almost like a self-defense [43:51] mechanism that as a boss I'm going to [43:52] tell you what's going on. [43:54] Because that's the only way I can drag [43:57] the hard truths back from you. [43:59] Cuz otherwise you're going to filter [44:00] yourself. You're going to be like I [44:01] don't want Darda know [44:03] this happened. But you ever worry that [44:05] they might not be able to deal with the [44:06] truth? [44:07] Then they can leave. [44:09] And and I think that that's so I think [44:11] that's what my head of HR was saying. I [44:13] was scaring the [ __ ] out of people cuz [44:14] I'm like, "We have a real problem here [44:17] and we've got to come together." And and [44:19] I think that [44:20] that you know, there's a I was a good [44:23] decision-making framework for me is [44:26] if I make a mistake, where do I want to [44:27] make the mistake on? [44:29] Right? And so if I want to if I'm going [44:33] to err with my company, I'm going to err [44:36] in telling the truth and potentially [44:39] scaring someone away. I'll take that. [44:41] Because if that person doesn't want to [44:42] face the truth, if he or she's not up [44:44] for the fight, [44:46] then they should go someplace else. They [44:48] can have a good time. I'm sure they can [44:49] have a good career, etc. So for me as a [44:52] leader, I've always always believed in [44:55] transparency, partially cuz then I think [44:57] you attract the right people. [44:59] And [clears throat] [45:00] uh partially because then I'm going to [45:02] get the good information so to act on. [45:05] Usually, the failures I see with CEOs [45:09] aren't because they made the wrong [45:10] decisions. It's because they were [45:12] getting the wrong data that led to the [45:13] wrong decisions. So it's incredibly [45:15] important as a leader of any [45:17] organization for you to [45:20] build the channels and build the kind of [45:22] culture that surfaces problems to you [45:24] quickly. And then for me, too, [45:27] you always have to have your random [45:29] direct channels. You know, the the [45:31] Again, if you [45:32] think about organizations as organisms, [45:35] they have their own incentives. And so [45:38] my staff's incentive is to control the [45:42] the the information that gets to me. Not [45:44] because they're bad people, it's just [45:46] their job cuz I can get overwhelmed. Who [45:48] do I meet with? What's my schedule? You [45:50] know, is this person worthy of meeting [45:52] the CEO? [45:53] And for me, my fight is I just set up a [45:55] bunch of random [ __ ] [45:57] I'll meet with, you know, engineers four [45:59] levels down consistently cuz usually [46:03] they've got the kind of personality [46:04] where they don't give a [ __ ] They'll [46:05] tell me anything and everything and they [46:07] like [46:08] putting the CEO down. That's great. They [46:10] like putting the CEO down. [46:12] >> It's you know, engineers often, you [46:14] know, don't like authority and code is [46:16] like the biggest authority buster is [46:18] like the truth truth. [46:20] Uh so I found a lot of engineers have a [46:22] personality which is, yeah, I'm going to [46:23] tell you what it's like. Like I'm you [46:25] know, they they they their value is in [46:27] something else. But often they don't [46:30] There's a kind of a disrespect for [46:31] authority that I love. I've found in my [46:33] companies that there's sometimes like a [46:35] 24-year-old [46:36] young girl who will just tell me the [46:37] truth. [46:38] >> Yeah. And [46:40] she's the one you want to hang out with. [46:42] She's the one I always go and ask for an [46:43] opinion. [46:43] >> Absolutely. And so that that's you've [46:46] got to have your your own channels. [46:48] But the way to the way to get [46:50] transparency from your team is first [46:52] first you've got to give it to them. Was [46:54] the culture hard working when you [46:55] arrived? Cuz you used the word coasting [46:57] to describe some of the team when you [46:58] arrived at Expedia. [46:59] Medium. I think the the company had been [47:01] successful for a long time and [47:04] had coasted on that success to some [47:07] extent. So I needed to turn over the [47:09] team. Turned over like the entire team [47:11] very very quickly and get some hungry [47:12] people in there. The entire team? [47:14] Almost entire team. Yeah, yeah. It was [47:17] uh it was rough going for a while. But [47:18] then you have kind of mission oriented [47:20] people who are trying to prove [47:22] themselves [47:23] um and it's part of the renewal that [47:25] every company has to go through. [47:26] And we turned it around. It was it was [47:28] tough going, but we really turned it [47:29] around and that was when I kind of I [47:32] learned, hey, my my love is running [47:34] [ __ ] It's great. It's the best part of [47:36] my job. How did you get that company to [47:38] work hard? [47:39] Because there's so many people listening [47:40] right now that are in a company that [47:41] might have been successful, coasting, [47:43] might be two decades in. And this is an [47:46] ultimate question in like executive [47:47] management. How do you turn around the [47:48] culture of a big or even even if even [47:51] 200 people? [47:52] It's very difficult um and sometimes the [47:55] shortcut is just change the people. Like [47:57] it's very easy to say, "Oh, you have [47:59] values this and that." So, it's it's [48:01] finding the people who you believe will [48:05] line up with your cultural mechanisms or [48:08] how you work or your values. [48:11] And then embodying those values and [48:15] those mechanisms as examples and then [48:18] making sure that your team embodies [48:19] those values and imbues down the down [48:22] the organization. So, part of working [48:24] hard is like [48:25] you know, sending emails to the team on [48:27] a Saturday and if I don't get a response [48:28] on Saturday, sending them an email on [48:30] Sunday with a question mark. [48:32] What's going on? [48:33] You know, I think at Expedia in [48:35] hindsight [48:36] we we worked intensely and and and we [48:39] went hard. [48:40] But but not as hard as I like because [48:43] Expedia was we were selling vacations, [48:46] right? It was it was the the product [48:48] that we were selling was about turning [48:50] yourself off. [48:52] And so, we did talk about work-life [48:54] balance. [48:55] Uh and in hindsight [48:59] at Uber, I don't. [49:01] You know, you come to Uber, you're going [49:02] to work your ass off. We're going to be [49:04] really demanding. If you're not [49:07] performing [49:09] we're going to let you know and if you [49:12] don't fix it, we're going to push you [49:13] out. [49:14] But while it will be incredibly hard [49:18] you will have real agency at the [49:20] company. We're a big company, but [49:22] individuals can make a big difference [49:24] and it's a company that's making a [49:25] difference in the world. [49:27] You're going to learn so much. [49:29] And while you will have worked hard, [49:31] you're going to have a great time. [49:33] But this is don't come here if you want [49:35] to coast. And I'm very clear about that. [49:38] And I should have been more clear at [49:39] Expedia, but we were selling vacations, [49:40] so I couldn't be quite that clear. [49:44] New year always has a strange energy to [49:46] it because people start talking about [49:48] their goals, fresh starts, new habits. [49:49] But the reality is that most people [49:51] carry the same ideas they had last year [49:54] into the new year. I'm guilty of that, [49:55] too. And they still don't end up doing [49:57] anything with them. And I get why. 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[50:46] In your 12 years as CEO, Expedia's stock [50:48] rose 550% [50:51] and sales increased 400% [50:54] from 2.1 billion to 8.8 billion. [50:57] And you were the highest-paid CEO of a [50:59] US tech company with a pay of 94.1 [51:02] million. I left that all behind to go to [51:04] Uber. You left it all [laughter] behind? [51:05] It was a big options package that I [51:07] never vested, but it's all good. [51:09] It was a great one. [51:11] I'm so I'm so intrigued about this point [51:13] of hard work because I think 10 years [51:14] ago, saying what you just said was very [51:16] taboo. Yes. It feels to me more [51:19] >> [laughter] [51:20] >> We're freed now. Yes. You're freed now. [51:22] Yes. Yes, indeed. It's it I've I've [51:25] gotten um [51:27] you know, sometimes people I see the [51:28] question uh what advice would you give [51:30] to young people? [51:31] And to me, the most important skill in [51:35] life is the skill of working hard. [51:37] And it's not a skill you you can't just [51:39] like decide you're going to do it. [51:41] And I think way too many many people, [51:43] you know, focus on should be it should [51:45] should Should be a computer programmer [51:48] or a doctor or study the liberal arts [51:50] now that anyone can buy code? Just learn [51:53] to work hard. And it is you you know [51:56] that that when you see the top athletes, [51:59] of course they're talented. And [52:02] that you know their talent level is [52:03] world levels. But the thing that changes [52:06] that that's different about the elite [52:08] athletes than the non-elite athletes. [52:10] And I'm talking elite is they work their [52:13] asses off. They're disciplined, they're [52:15] structured, they're relentless. You [52:18] know, look at Ronaldo, look at Michael [52:20] Jordan, etc. That's the same thing is [52:23] true in all of life. It's true in [52:25] business, it's true in personal life. [52:27] And so for me with my kids, I just want [52:32] to teach them how to work hard. And And [52:33] for me like growing up, [52:35] I as a banker, as an executive, [52:38] I'm not going to let anyone outwork me. [52:41] And if that's true, then they may be [52:43] smarter, more talented, etc. But I'm not [52:46] going to let anyone outwork me. And I [52:48] think that that's a huge advantage that [52:50] you have in a over period of time that [52:52] advantage compounds. And I want that in [52:53] our company. Like I want Uber to be an [52:55] incredibly hard working company. Comes [52:57] at a cost though, Nate, working hard. [52:59] Yes. It comes at a trade-off. And And we [53:02] we believe in flexibility. [53:04] So, people confuse kind of lack of [53:06] flexibility to working hard. You can [53:08] work hard and at the same time you can [53:10] have flexibility. So, if you want to [53:12] have dinner with your family and I'm I'm [53:14] religious about having dinners with my [53:15] family when I'm in town, you know, 6:00 [53:17] to 8:00, [53:19] absolutely spend that time with my [53:20] family. But at you know, 9:30 p.m. I'm [53:23] checking emails. Mhm. [53:24] >> Right? When I wake up at 5:30 in in a [53:26] a.m., I'm checking emails. So, of course [53:28] there are trade-offs. And you know, life [53:30] is about trade-offs. [53:32] I think one of the most important things [53:33] I've learned from interviewing CEOs and [53:35] generally we've gone through a [53:36] transition of COVID and remote work and [53:37] then come back in to like everyone's in [53:38] the office again is actually the most [53:40] important thing is what you've just [53:41] said, which is being honest with people [53:43] so that they can make decisions for [53:45] themselves in their lives. I think the [53:46] the thing that one might describe as [53:48] toxic is when you say something [53:50] publicly, but then when they arrive it's [53:53] a completely different deal. But what [53:54] you're doing is you're being honest and [53:56] you're therefore allowing people to make [53:57] decisions for themselves in their own [53:58] lives. And I'm allowing them to be [54:00] honest back to me. [54:01] Yeah. And you're that's a that's a [54:03] company culture that someone like me [54:04] would be attracted to. [54:05] >> Absolutely. [54:05] >> But there's lots of people listening [54:06] that couldn't think of anything worse. [54:07] And that's okay. [54:08] >> Yes. Yeah. There'll plenty of companies [54:10] that they can find of causes that they [54:12] can find is fine. You said learn to work [54:15] hard. Learn. [54:17] It's a It's a skill. Really? Yes, of [54:20] course it is. Because you [54:21] >> You you because you you've got to the [54:22] idea of just staying focused on [54:25] something, not being discouraged by [54:27] failing, trying over and over again, and [54:30] just working harder than others. It's [54:32] not something you can turn on and off. I [54:34] see it in people all the time. There's [54:36] just like this [54:37] grim determination. Like we [54:40] At Uber there's there's actually a [54:41] saying it's it's it's inside one of our [54:43] values, embrace the grind. [54:46] You know, embrace it. That's [54:48] that's a learned skill. That's not [54:50] something you're born with. Maybe maybe [54:52] there's an element that you're born [54:53] with. Have you ever seen someone who [54:54] isn't a hard worker become a really hard [54:57] worker? An exceptionally hard worker? [54:59] >> Ah, that's a good question. [55:01] No no one doesn't occur to me. Have you? [55:04] >> [laughter] [55:05] >> No, I I had a I think it might have been [55:08] maybe Brian Chesky at Airbnb or Elon say [55:11] that he's never seen someone who wasn't [55:13] a hard worker become a really hard [55:15] worker. That's interesting. And this is [55:17] why I always [55:17] >> to come up with someone. [55:19] >> [laughter] [55:20] >> Failing so far. [55:21] And maybe I might posit that it's [55:23] somewhat to do with, you know, these [55:26] photos that you have in front of you. [55:27] Your childhood, your early context, [55:29] which you didn't choose. [55:31] >> hard here. [55:32] But that I mean you were forged in such [55:34] a way that you were going to be [55:36] ruthless. So relentless is the word I [55:38] meant. [55:38] >> Yeah, I I mean ruthless to myself. Mhm. [55:41] Relentless [clears throat] Relentless is [55:42] right. You know, I think I think at one [55:44] point Jeff Bezos was going to call [55:46] Amazon Relentless. [55:48] That was uh he was thinking about that [55:49] being the name of the company. [55:50] Right? It's It's just And And that is [55:54] When I see successful technology [55:56] companies, and especially technology [55:57] companies, there is this relentlessness [55:59] this about them. Like at at Uber, [56:02] we have lots of different groups that [56:03] are trying to do different things, [56:05] but each and every team [56:07] is built and targeted on optimizing and [56:12] improving their own particular function. [56:14] There isn't a piece of the company that [56:17] is not improving every single day. And [56:19] if they're not improving fast enough, [56:21] someone else is going to take their [56:22] place and going to improve it. So, as a [56:24] as an organism, [56:26] every part of the company, whether it's [56:28] a payments team in terms of new payments [56:31] types or uh payment success or the fraud [56:34] team or the mobile app team in terms of [56:37] conversions, etc., every team is set up [56:40] and and organized for and gold on [56:44] improving everything that they do. So, [56:46] the whole company in small ways is [56:48] constantly improving, never ever [56:51] stopping, and it is that relentless [56:53] nature of business. And And the minute [56:55] And it's not good enough to get [56:57] better. [56:58] We have to get better faster than our [57:00] competitors cuz our competitors are all [57:01] getting better as well. [57:03] So, it's it's basically like who can [57:05] adapt faster to either the reality of [57:08] the market as it is today or the [57:10] prediction of the market as you see it [57:12] tomorrow. [57:13] And it's the speed of change and it's [57:15] identification of the opportunity. Those [57:18] are the two factors [57:19] I think that are most important. Um and [57:22] the speed of change, you know, if you [57:24] can work fast, you're kind of [57:25] accelerating time. [57:27] You know, every [57:29] one shot that you take, I can take two [57:30] shots. I've got more time than you do. [57:32] And then of course there's identifying [57:34] the opportunity and going after it. [57:35] Those are the two things you really have [57:37] to get right. If you're taking two [57:38] shots, not only you're going to get two [57:41] data points of information, but you're [57:42] also increasing your probability of [57:43] having a successful shot by like 100%. [57:46] >> Shots on goal. Just shots on goal. How [57:48] do you create a culture of continuous [57:50] improvement? Because successful [57:51] companies as you kind of highlighted [57:53] earlier, they become complacent with [57:54] their victories and they like to take [57:55] some time off and celebrate and you [57:57] know, we high-five and then and then we [57:59] chill. And then actually the studies [58:00] show they did this big meta-analysis [58:02] where they looked at successful [58:03] companies and they showed that they [58:04] become risk adverse. [58:06] >> Totally. Because the loss aversion. They [58:08] have something to lose now. So just [58:10] protect. I think the good news to some [58:13] extent with Uber is that we've always [58:14] been a company that has had a chip on [58:17] its shoulder. [58:18] You know, the company had a chip on its [58:20] shoulder when it was founded and it had [58:21] to like fight taxi unions for its very [58:24] existence. [58:25] Uh and then the disaster happened with [58:28] Travis leaving and then a new CEO coming [58:30] in. At the time that was a really, [58:32] really difficult time. Then we went [58:34] through a period of COVID which was [58:36] again a disaster for the company, but [58:37] ultimately prepared us to to do better. [58:40] Then people saying, you know, it was a [58:41] tough IPO. [58:43] Uh Uber's never going to get profitable. [58:45] And today we're incredibly successful, [58:47] but we've got the challenge and the [58:49] opportunity of AI and autonomous. So [58:52] we've always been a company that has [58:54] been, I would say, underestimated. [58:57] And that feeds into our culture. That [59:01] this is a we are a hungry company and I [59:04] do think we're sometimes [59:07] guilty of getting complacent in little [59:09] ways. [59:10] And I have a leadership team that when [59:12] they see complacency more often than not [59:15] than not they identify it and they get [59:18] it the hell out. [59:19] It's it's a team that is [59:21] not satisfied. That's always driving. [59:23] And I love that about us. [59:25] How does one balance [59:27] enjoying [59:28] the success and the accomplishments? I [59:30] mean, you've turned this company around, [59:31] highly profitable company. Everyone that [59:33] I've spoken to, many of our mutual [59:35] friends, have talked lovingly about the [59:37] impact you've had on the business. I [59:38] mean, the numbers speak for themselves. [59:40] When you joined Uber, Uber was losing [59:41] 2.5 to 3 billion per year. Now it [59:44] generates 8.5 billion in free cash flow [59:47] every year. [59:48] How do you get people to [59:50] >> 9.8 in the last year, but just [59:52] >> [laughter] [59:52] >> You you're counting. 9.8, okay, [59:54] incredible. [59:56] Celebrate. Chill. Should Well, [59:59] You [laughter] could You could celebrate [60:01] in a nutshell. Okay, how [60:02] >> You can We take those moments. We do [60:04] celebrate. It's It's cool to run a [60:06] company that's so important. It's cool [60:07] to run a company that's hitting record [60:09] after record after record. And we do [60:12] celebrate those records, and we do [60:14] celebrate those things. Maybe not [60:15] enough. And again, it goes to like what [60:17] what what mistake would you rather make? [60:20] I'd make I'd rather make the mistake of [60:22] celebrating a little bit too little [60:24] and kind of being a little pissed off [60:26] about life in general and pushing. But [60:29] um we we take our moments. But the the [60:31] the success itself, I don't know, [60:33] succeeding is almost a celebration in [60:35] and of itself. And And when you're [60:37] succeeding in such a competitive field, [60:40] I just find a deep sense of satisfaction [60:42] there. [60:43] Uh and I think my team does, too. [60:45] How do you get the team to take take [60:47] those risks that they need to take? Is [60:49] there something you Do you like [60:50] incentivize them on the amount of shots [60:52] they take? How do you do that? One is [60:54] they're always moving fast. That's what [60:56] we do. We push. We're constantly pushing [60:58] the pace of the company in terms of [61:00] execution. So, I think that helps. But [61:03] But I do think that there's there's a [61:05] mechanism that we talk now about that [61:07] I've talked to the team about taking [61:08] smart risks. I think you're absolutely [61:09] right, which is as companies get bigger [61:12] and more successful, they tend to become [61:14] more risk-averse. [61:16] And it should be the exact opposite [61:17] because you can take more risks. You can [61:19] make more mistakes because you've got [61:21] kind of this 9.8 billion of cash flow to [61:23] protect yourself against some of those [61:25] mistakes. So, I have definitely in the [61:28] past, I would say 2 years, pushed the [61:31] team actively to push the envelope in [61:33] terms of risk. Don't be defensive, be [61:36] offensive, et cetera, and it comes from [61:38] my challenging the teams, my talking [61:40] about it, setting examples of sometimes [61:43] failing and then saying it's okay, [61:44] moving on. Uh and then [61:48] sometimes my taking decisions that are [61:50] seen as more risky than not. That [61:52] setting the example then allows the [61:54] company to follow. So, if I was in one [61:56] of your teams, what [61:58] how do you think about goal setting for [61:59] me? Um it all the teams have different [62:02] goals, business goals. The ads team has [62:04] to drive at technology-driven [62:08] incremental ad uh dollars per year and [62:12] or customer satisfaction, uh customer [62:14] NPS, et cetera. So, every team has its [62:16] own goals. [62:18] Uh and they organize guess those goals [62:21] and they execute those goals and they're [62:23] religiously tracked. It's the best [62:25] mechanism that we have. [62:27] I just wish that there was a better one [62:29] because the art of the goal setting [62:30] becomes the issue. Which is are you [62:32] setting the right goals? Are they too [62:34] ambitious? Are they non-ambitious [62:36] enough? And sometimes people can game [62:39] the system. So, we use it, [62:42] but I can't tell you that it's perfect. [62:44] What about you talked earlier about [62:45] values. A lot of companies go and do an [62:46] offsite and they write some words on a [62:48] words on a white on a wall and they say [62:50] ambition, enthusiasm, courage, whatever. [62:53] What do you think of that sort of [62:54] corporate habit of goal values and [62:57] stuff? We went through the exercise. [63:00] Failed the first time. [63:01] Succeeded the second time. [63:03] We and and when it and we failed when it [63:07] first came to Uber, obviously there was [63:09] a view that there we needed a cultural [63:11] reset of the company. [63:13] And so, it was very important for me to [63:15] go and inspect the culture of the [63:17] company and [63:20] change it. It was a statement. And the [63:23] culture had [63:25] I think some cool stuff in there, some [63:26] cool ideas in there. Like for for [63:27] example, there was one value that was [63:29] toe stepping. [63:31] And the idea of toe stepping is is what [63:33] you and I talked about earlier, which is [63:35] we want to challenge each other within [63:37] the organization. And so if I have to [63:39] step on your toes and tell you something [63:41] that you don't want to hear, I'm allowed [63:45] to even though it hurts you [63:47] uh because the truth is more important. [63:49] So sometimes the truth hurts and that's [63:51] okay. That was the idea of toe stepping. [63:53] And what happened was sometimes those [63:55] values became weaponized. [63:58] Where toe stepping, whose spirit came [64:00] from a place of we want to speak the [64:03] truth [64:04] became an excuse to be a jerk. Mhm. [64:06] >> [clears throat] [64:07] >> Right? So the values in and of [64:09] themselves can be great or [64:14] terrible based on how you execute on [64:17] those values. When I first came in, we [64:19] had to redo the values. And I was there [64:22] there's a saying by um Jeff Bezos that [64:24] that I love, which is like [64:26] the the values of the company almost [64:28] they they they appear. The value system [64:30] of the company appears to some extent. [64:31] You don't If you say thou shalt, you're [64:33] going to fail cuz the company shall. [64:36] Right? And the approach that we first [64:38] took was that we will actually get the [64:42] value system we had we had a vote for [64:45] all the employees in the company, what [64:46] values do you think should be part of [64:48] the new Uber, etc. We took all of that [64:50] signal and then we edited it and came up [64:52] with a new list of of values. And there [64:55] was one value [64:56] that [64:58] I wrote myself. [64:59] It was mine. And it was [65:01] do the right thing, period. [65:04] It wasn't crowd sourced. It was just [65:06] that. And and usually with these values [65:08] you're like there's a whole explanation [65:10] and people are like [65:11] well, what does do the right thing [65:13] {period} mean?" Like, you have to figure [65:15] it out. [65:17] And for me, it it it was a message [65:19] to the whole company, [65:21] which was, [65:22] "If you work at Uber, you have a [65:24] responsibility, and I'm not going to [65:26] tell you exactly what to do, so use your [65:28] judgment. And it's our expectation that [65:30] you use your judgment to do the right [65:31] thing." And sometimes doing the right [65:32] thing is not clear. Should I go after my [65:34] business goals? Should I [65:36] compromise on a business goal because [65:38] safety is in question? Of course, you [65:39] should. Safety comes first before [65:41] business, et cetera. But we were putting [65:43] that weight and that responsibility in [65:46] within the employees. But the rest of [65:49] the value system that was kind of [65:51] crowdsourced, it was forgettable. [65:53] Because it was the kind of stuff that [65:54] you passion, ambition, teamwork. Like, [65:58] what company doesn't believe in [65:59] teamwork? Give me a break. [66:01] So, we Nikki Krishnamurthy, who runs [66:05] people, she pushed me to reset the [66:10] values [66:11] four or five years in. By then, I felt [66:13] like I did have a right to have a point [66:15] of view. I'd been there. We weren't [66:18] quite done with the turnaround, et [66:19] cetera, but I was a part of the company. [66:21] And then we came up with a value set, [66:23] which is different. You know, there's [66:26] one of our values. By the way, go get it [66:28] was the only one that survived. [66:30] No, no, sorry. Do the right thing was [66:32] the only one that survived. But for [66:33] example, go get it is one of our top [66:35] values, and the idea of go get it is [66:38] obviously it's literally what we do. We [66:40] go. We help people go or get it, right? [66:44] Rides and eats. So, it's kind of fun in [66:46] terms of what we do, but it's an [66:48] attitude, which is we [66:51] as a company, we're go-getters. We're [66:53] going to be aggressive. We're going to [66:54] push. We're going to move fast. We play [66:57] to win. [66:58] And so, the value sets that we have, go [67:00] get it, or one that I really like, great [67:02] minds don't think alike. [67:04] We came up with a with a set of values, [67:08] which I think is unusual and describes [67:09] how we are different as a company, and [67:11] it's really true to who we are. [67:13] How important is this sort of this [67:15] attitude of failure and experimentation, [67:17] especially in a world that's [67:18] transitioning as fast as the one we're [67:19] in? When you listen to people like Ray [67:21] Kurzweil, his predictions of the future, [67:22] he says that if you're 10 now, by the [67:24] age of 60, you'll experience a year's [67:26] change in I think it's 11 days. And just [67:28] this sort of this sort of exponential [67:30] acceleration [67:31] >> of accelerating returns. [67:33] >> how do you how do you, you know, how do [67:35] you create a culture or build a team in [67:36] a world where the correct answer is [67:38] changing this quickly? [67:40] I I think that it is [67:43] setting a culture that [67:46] does embrace that change and is [67:48] constantly challenging itself. And I [67:50] will give [67:52] uh Travis and the founding team credit, [67:54] you know, that there's kind of this [67:57] idea of everything that they did was [67:58] terrible, and that's just not true. We [68:00] have a very high talent bar at the [68:03] company. [68:04] We have always kept a high talent bar at [68:05] the company, and we haven't compromised. [68:07] And what I found is that talented people [68:10] who are also driven [68:13] are on a constant hunt for the truth. [68:16] So, culture isn't enough. You actually [68:18] need the right people at the company. [68:20] And I think we've got a company that [68:23] does have a chip on its shoulder, [68:25] was born out of the creation of a new [68:28] industry, so we've experienced it. [68:31] Um and we have a group of people who are [68:34] driven and hungry, [68:37] and [68:38] are [68:39] constantly looking for change. And you [68:41] got a leader and a leadership team [68:44] that's pushing the company to do so and [68:45] doesn't penalize [68:48] folks for challenging them. [68:49] I think it's kind of this stew that you [68:51] have to put together, but it's a [68:52] combination of [68:53] culture and people. Do you have any [68:55] mental case studies of great [68:57] bets the company has taken that most [69:00] people wouldn't have taken or thought [69:01] was wrong or wouldn't have taken a risk [69:03] on that tran- transpired to be critical [69:05] to your success. [69:06] >> Well, you know, I I don't know about [69:08] um [69:09] Well, I I think it will be critical to [69:11] to the success, but there's a funny one [69:12] which is [69:15] taxis [69:16] are one of the fastest growing parts of [69:19] Uber's business. So, you remember Uber, [69:21] we started as the enemy of taxis [69:24] and built out this peer-to-peer ride [69:26] sharing [69:28] and it's probably five or six years ago, [69:31] our head of product now, Sa- Sachin, he [69:33] worked on building kind of um [69:36] a technology that would allow taxi [69:37] companies to to have their own little [69:40] Uber app. [69:41] And eventually he came to Uber, thank [69:42] God, and he's like, "Well, why don't we [69:44] build that in Uber? Why don't we [69:46] actually build taxis on Uber?" And [69:49] originally within the company and and I [69:52] I kept in touch with some of the [69:53] founders just cuz I want their advice, [69:55] cuz why not? You know, they they built a [69:56] great company. I'm standing on the [69:58] shoulders of giants. [70:00] Uh they said it's the most idiotic thing [70:03] on Earth that you can't wire up taxis, [70:04] they hate us, they separate, it'll be [70:07] terrible, lots of technical reasons. [70:08] They had tried it earlier. It was a [70:10] total failure. But, I think Sachin [70:13] uh having worked in the industry [70:16] and then my being kind of ignorant [70:18] saying, "Why the hell not try it?" That [70:20] combination allowed us to build out a [70:22] taxi product and taxi is the fastest [70:24] growing segment of the company and it [70:25] went completely against the founding of [70:27] the company. But, now we're, you know, I [70:30] I hope to have every single taxi in the [70:32] world wired up to Uber. Why not? [70:35] For the first 10 years that I was a [70:36] founder, I didn't prioritize getting a [70:38] good night's sleep at all. But, over [70:39] time I started to realize that it was [70:40] the key metric that influenced [70:42] everything in my life. I moved my focus, [70:43] my ability to show up and to think [70:45] clearly and to lead well. So, now with [70:47] my lifestyle being pretty crazy, [70:48] traveling across time zones, working [70:49] late, training late, I still fight to [70:51] protect my sleep, which sometimes means [70:53] starting the day a little bit later. It [70:54] was my Whoop that helped me to make this [70:56] connection. They are one of my sponsors [70:57] for the show and for the last 4 years [70:59] everyday my Whoop has given me insights [71:01] into my sleep, my recovery, the strain [71:02] I'm taking on and more broadly how my [71:04] daily behaviors influence my overall [71:07] holistic health. It's the difference [71:08] between guessing and knowing why I might [71:11] be feeling the way that I feel. [71:13] Sometimes it will nudge me, sometimes it [71:14] will get me to slow down, sometimes it [71:16] pushes me to go even harder, but all the [71:18] time it provides me with data that gives [71:20] me a deeper understanding of myself and [71:22] without it it'd be hard to optimize how [71:23] I live and perform. Right now you can [71:25] get 1 month free through my link at [71:28] join.whoop.com/ceo. [71:31] 1 month free join.whoop.com/ceo. [71:36] This company that I've just invested in [71:37] is growing like crazy. I want to be the [71:38] one to tell you about it because I think [71:40] it's going to create such a huge [71:41] productivity advantage for you. Whisper [71:42] Flow is an app that you can get on your [71:44] computer and on your phone on all your [71:46] devices and it allows you to speak to [71:48] your technology. So instead of me [71:49] writing an email, I click one button on [71:50] my phone and I can just speak the email [71:53] into existence and it uses AI to clean [71:56] up what I was saying and then when I'm [71:57] done I just hit this one button here and [71:59] the whole email is written for me and [72:01] it's saving me so much time in a day [72:04] because Whisper learns how I write. So [72:06] on WhatsApp it knows how I am a little [72:07] bit more casual, on email a little bit [72:09] more professional. And also there's this [72:10] really interesting thing they've just [72:11] done. I can create little phrases to [72:13] automatically do the work for me. I can [72:15] just say Jack's LinkedIn and it copies [72:17] Jack's LinkedIn profile for me because [72:19] it knows who Jack is in my life. This is [72:21] saving me a huge amount of time. This [72:22] company is growing like absolute crazy. [72:24] This is why I invested in the business [72:26] now a sponsor of this show and Whisper [72:28] Flow is frankly becoming the worst kept [72:30] secret in business productivity and [72:32] entrepreneurship. Check it out now at [72:33] whisperflow spelled w [72:37] i s p r f l o w dot a i slash steven. It [72:43] will be a game changer for for you. I [72:44] realize that the Diary of a CEO audience [72:46] are strivers whether it's in business or [72:48] health. We all have big goals that we [72:50] want to accomplish and one of the things [72:52] I've learned is that when you aim at the [72:54] big, big, big goal, it can feel [72:56] incredibly psychologically uncomfortable [72:59] because it's kind of like being stood at [73:01] the foot of Mount Everest and looking [73:02] upwards. The way to accomplish your [73:04] goals is by breaking them down into tiny [73:07] small steps, and we call this in our [73:09] team the 1% and actually this philosophy [73:11] is highly responsible for much of our [73:13] success here. So, what we've done is [73:16] that you at home can accomplish any big [73:18] goal that you have is we've made these [73:20] 1% diaries and we released these last [73:23] year and they all sold out. So, I asked [73:25] my team over and over again to bring the [73:27] diaries back but also to introduce some [73:28] new colors and to make some minor tweaks [73:30] to the diary. So, now we have a better [73:33] range for you. So, if you have a big [73:36] goal in mind and you need a framework [73:38] and a process and some motivation, then [73:40] I highly recommend you get one of these [73:42] diaries before they all sell out once [73:44] again. And you can get yours now at the [73:46] diary.com where you can get 20% off our [73:49] Black Friday bundle. And if you want the [73:51] link, the link is in the description [73:52] below. [73:54] And there's another um there's an alien [73:56] that's arrived amongst us um which is AI [73:59] and you've, you know, Uber's always been [74:00] somewhat powered from what I understand [74:01] by Veramyst to some degree. But um the [74:04] world has changed in the last couple of [74:05] years as it relates to AI. There's been [74:06] a huge acceleration in investment and [74:08] improvement of the technology. What do [74:10] you [74:11] Aside from Uber [74:15] You talked earlier about your early [74:16] childhood and how you know, you grew up [74:18] with a bit of a paranoia about losing [74:20] everything because that's what you [74:21] experienced as a young man. You see this [74:23] technology arrive which is fundamentally [74:25] disruptive to all of us including me as [74:26] a podcaster. I'm like, I've done the [74:28] tests and the retention isn't [74:30] The retention isn't far off when it's me [74:31] or AI. So, [74:32] >> [laughter] [74:32] >> it's slightly concerning. But like how [74:34] do you how do you approach such a tech [74:36] disruptive technology? Um how do you [74:38] think of it broadly and the impact it's [74:40] going to have on society? [74:41] And are you paranoid? [74:43] I'm not paranoid. I'm not [74:45] I I guess I was going to say I'm not [74:47] built that way, but maybe I am. I I I [74:48] think my instinct is always just to go, [74:51] just to move forward. And Uber has been [74:53] built out of an AI core. All of our [74:56] pricing, all of our routing, who you're [74:58] matched with, [74:59] whether or not a courier batches trip, [75:03] which is do they take two orders or one [75:05] order, all of our systems, underlying [75:07] systems, are are driven by AI. We do 40 [75:10] million trips a day. You know, that kind [75:12] of orchestration can't be done by uh [75:16] heuristic rules, and we've got to work [75:18] on the streets of New York and the [75:19] streets of Lagos as well. So, [75:22] the the [75:23] we we have built the entire company on [75:27] small AI models that have been trained [75:29] on local problems, and then gets [75:31] stitched together. That's literally what [75:33] the company is. So, for us, AI is it's [75:36] kind of a core skill set. And And AI can [75:38] it can mess things up, right? It It's [75:40] not because it's not heuristics based. [75:42] There are [75:44] emergent issues that come out of [75:47] an AI that works 96% of time, and 4% of [75:50] time it screws up. [75:52] So, we're comfortable with the [75:54] uncertainty layer of AI as a company. [75:56] So, we are, [75:58] I would say, moving headlong into AI. [76:01] We're not one of the, you know, research [76:03] shops, but I would say, in terms of [76:05] applied AI, [76:07] the team is driving to build AI, kind of [76:11] newer AI experiences across the company. [76:14] But, you know, stepping back as a as a [76:16] person, the impact on society is going [76:18] to be enormous. And going back to [76:22] Kurzweil's kind of law of accelerating [76:25] returns, [76:26] whereas previously society has always [76:29] been able to adjust [76:30] to these kinds of shifts. [76:32] Um it's been able to adjust because it [76:34] had time [76:36] to adjust. [76:37] And AI literally, quite literally, [76:40] thinks. And AI will be able to replace [76:43] the work that [76:46] 70 80% of humans can do [76:49] over the next 10 years. [76:51] 10 years is not a lot of time for [76:53] society to adjust to that kind of an [76:54] impact. [76:56] Now, are they going to be more expensive [76:57] than humans, cheaper than humans, etc. [76:59] who knows, but the capability will be [77:01] there. [77:02] Probably in the next 10 years for [77:03] intellectual jobs, probably call it [77:06] 15 years for physical, 15 20 years for [77:08] physical jobs because physical AI robots [77:11] is harder. You know, robots, cars, etc. [77:14] more [77:15] capital heavy, takes longer, have to [77:17] deal with the physical world. [77:19] So, the the [77:21] changes in society are going to be [77:23] giant. [77:24] But, my view is [77:27] you can't slow down the rate of change. [77:31] And if you're a part of that change, at [77:35] least you can have some say [77:37] as to how that change imprints on [77:39] society and imprints on the real world. [77:42] And so, for me I'm leaning in. It's a [77:44] it's a very very exciting time. [77:47] 70 to 80% of jobs will be disrupted by [77:51] AI's like broadly what you said there. [77:53] And the pace of change is going to mean [77:54] that a lot of people don't have new jobs [77:56] to go to. [77:57] >> [clears throat] [77:57] >> Because we haven't [77:58] >> I think that's the question. The [77:59] retraining challenge and people say well [78:01] there's going to be jobs in AI but like [78:02] listen, [78:03] I got some friends that can't just [78:05] >> [laughter] [78:05] >> And you know, society's always adjusted, [78:07] right? Farming was a huge percentage of [78:10] our labor force, now it's less than 1%. [78:12] But the speed of Yeah, that I I think [78:14] that's the question. And you could argue [78:15] that AI's will be able to retrain you, [78:17] right? But the the job retraining is [78:19] going to change. So, of course society [78:21] is going to adjust. [78:22] But I I do think it raises questions, [78:24] real questions. I've I've not been able [78:25] to get an answer on that really I think [78:27] from the experts in AI that I've [78:29] interviewed which is like what do those [78:30] 70 80 people percent of people do [78:32] because we're seeing it in our own [78:33] business that there's many jobs which we [78:34] would have hired for previously um [78:36] across the board that AI is now doing [78:38] exceptionally well and every single day, [78:41] literally daily, we try to see if the [78:43] new model, Gemini Pro 3 or whatever, can [78:45] do things that we're currently doing [78:47] manually. And every day we're getting [78:48] those little breakthroughs and going, [78:49] "Oh, okay, now we no longer need to" And [78:51] coding is one of those big areas that [78:52] you talk about a lot. Where there's been [78:54] already sort of big dis- disruption, [78:57] positive disruption at Uber. [78:59] And a lot of your coders are now using [79:00] AI to [79:01] >> Yeah, about 90% of our coders are using [79:03] AI. Now, that's easy to say, but but [79:05] there are probably 30% of them that were [79:08] power users. They are showing a clear [79:12] um, differentiation in the number diffs, [79:14] for example, how much uh, a diff is a [79:17] code release that's different from the [79:19] last code release. So, one of the [79:20] measurements of productivity is just how [79:23] many diffs are you putting to the code [79:24] base. Uber's just a giant code base. [79:26] That's what we are. [79:27] And so, our engineers are literally the [79:29] builders of the company. They are [79:31] manufacturing the bricks that go into [79:33] the system. [79:34] Uh, and there are architects who are [79:35] kind of thinking about what the system [79:37] should should look like. [79:38] Uh, and so, while 90% of our engineers [79:42] are using [79:44] AI tools of some sort, there's about 30% [79:47] of them that are using them at a [79:48] completely accelerated pace. [79:51] And it really is changing their [79:54] productivity in a way that I've never [79:56] ever seen before. Ultimately, I do think [79:59] that the [80:01] job of a coder is going to change more [80:03] and more from actually writing the code [80:06] from to some extent orchestrating agents [80:09] who are writing the code or building [80:12] systems for you. It becomes more of an [80:14] orchestration job versus a manual [80:17] writing job. But, the job will still be [80:19] there. [80:21] And my attitude is, if my average [80:23] engineer became 25 25% more efficient, [80:26] which we haven't gone there yet, but we [80:28] will get there, I'm going to hire more [80:30] engineers cuz I want to go faster. [80:31] There's still lots of unsolved problems [80:34] that we haven't solved. But I can [80:36] imagine, you know, maybe 5 years from [80:37] now [80:38] as the engineers get more and more [80:40] productive, I may not decide to add [80:42] engineering headcount because at that [80:44] point, instead of adding an engineer, I [80:46] should add agents and buy some more GPUs [80:48] from Nvidia. That may be the investment [80:50] in the future. We'll see. Cuz thinking [80:52] about linear versus exponential as well, [80:53] if we imagine the rate of improvement, I [80:56] don't know, in my head I go, "Well, when [80:57] will there come a time where you as the [80:59] CEO or you and a team, an executive [81:01] team, can tell an agent what you want to [81:03] build? You can show it the strategy. [81:06] And theoretically, I mean, I can't [81:07] figure out how this isn't going to be [81:08] possible, [81:09] the agents will then build. Actually, [81:11] maybe they didn't even need you to set [81:13] the strategy. Maybe [81:15] >> [laughter] [81:16] >> No, but theoretically, you know, if they [81:17] if you imagine any rate of improvement [81:19] in the intelligence, maybe at some point [81:20] they're going to go, "Well, listen, we [81:21] there's a better strategy here, Dara." [81:22] One one of my uh [81:25] uh one of my team members told me that [81:27] uh some teams have built uh a Dara AI, [81:30] you know, so so that they basically make [81:33] the presentation to the Dara AI as a [81:36] prep for making a presentation to me. [81:39] Cuz you [laughter] can imagine, like, [81:40] you know, by the time something comes to [81:42] me, there's been a prep and a meeting [81:43] and the and the slide deck has been [81:45] beautifully honed. So, they have Dara AI [81:48] to tune their prep. Are you concerned [81:50] they might show Dara AI to the board? [81:52] >> [laughter] [81:53] >> I was like, I was like, "Can I see the [81:55] code for Dara AI?" I'm curious. She's [81:56] like, "No, we're not showing it to you." [82:00] But is there anything like falsifiable [82:01] in what I just said about [82:03] that there coming a time in the not so [82:04] near future if we imagine exponential [82:06] improvement where [82:08] I think I think where AI [82:10] still is missing a beat that humans and [82:13] other creatures have is the ability to [82:15] learn real time. [82:17] Right? So, if if you think about you and [82:19] I are learning for this conversation and [82:20] maybe [82:22] your behavior is going to change by 0.1% [82:24] because of actually what you learn here. [82:27] And the construct of most large AI [82:30] models is capture enormous enormous [82:33] amounts of data based on the skill set [82:35] that you're trying to drive, [82:37] train pre-train that model, [82:40] put it into the real world, and then [82:42] there's some post-training of the of the [82:43] model based on feedback from from the [82:45] world, and then when the model's [82:47] released, it's kind of released, right? [82:49] And [82:51] the way the model learns is, you know, [82:53] 3.5 becomes 3.8, but 3.5 didn't learn. [82:57] The engineers went out and built, you [82:59] know, built a new model that's 3.8 that [83:01] might have elements of 3.5 to it, etc. [83:04] So, the the AI agents aren't learning. [83:09] Now now a lot of what we're doing is [83:11] we're building around the foundation [83:13] models, then then bring kind of the [83:15] signals from the real world, and use the [83:16] skills that the foundation models have [83:19] to do good stuff. Sounds good to me. [83:21] Yeah. Post-training. I'm post-training. [83:23] >> Exactly. So, well, so we are [83:25] post-training, but [83:28] we're learning real time as human [83:29] beings. And when the models can learn [83:34] real time, Mhm. that [clears throat] I [83:36] think is the point at which [83:38] I'm going to kind of think, yeah, we are [83:41] all replaceable. But at this point, I [83:43] haven't seen a model that can learn real [83:44] time. One of the real areas of [83:46] disruption in AI has been autonomous [83:47] vehicles. And I was just before we [83:48] started recording I was saying that uh I [83:50] have a Tesla in LA where I live, and [83:54] it's staggering that I can get in the [83:55] car, [83:56] >> Yeah. [83:56] >> press the button, and drive 2 and 1/2 [83:58] hours to Joshua Tree without having to [83:59] touch the wheel or the the pedals. [84:01] Now, driving I think is one of the [84:03] biggest employers in the world, like as [84:05] of profession. I mean, we've got 9.5 [84:07] million drivers and couriers on our [84:08] platform. We are the [84:11] the largest organizer of flexible work [84:13] around the world, and they I think the [84:15] second largest um workforce is the [84:17] Chinese army. [84:18] Wow. Yeah. It's a big group of folks [84:21] that we've organized. And statistically, [84:24] there's less accidents in an autonomous [84:26] Tesla than there is if a human drives [84:28] it. So, it's safer for my car to drive [84:30] itself statistically than for me to [84:31] drive it. That's true, right? That the [84:33] autonomous driving is currently safer. [84:35] That's true. So, Waymos are safer, and [84:37] then now you are a backup to the Tesla, [84:40] right, as a human being. So, I've I've [84:41] got a Tesla as well, and once in a while [84:44] it disengages, and I've got to or I've [84:46] got to disengage. So, [84:49] it it's not necessarily the pure [84:52] autonomous agent that's better than [84:53] humans, but definitely the autonomous [84:56] agent with a human backup, no question [84:58] that's better than the pure human. And [85:00] we can't be far away from it just being [85:02] I mean, Waymos are already, right? You [85:05] You live in LA. [85:06] They've got the Waymos. We work with [85:08] them in Austin, in Atlanta. And by all [85:11] accounts, Waymo drivers are safer than [85:13] human beings, and that's going to be [85:14] true of AV [85:16] all over the world. You know, there [85:17] there are a million deaths [85:20] uh from driving every year in the world. [85:24] In the US, it's between 35,000 and [85:26] 40,000 auto fatalities. So, to the [85:30] extent that these these autonomous [85:32] agents and drivers can be better than [85:34] humans, and they will be better than [85:35] humans over a period of time, uh there's [85:38] a real return on human life as a result [85:41] of this. Those 9 [snorts] million [85:43] drivers' careers that you have will be [85:45] out of work [85:46] conceivably in the you know, talking [85:48] about being honest about the situation. [85:50] >> Yeah, I think again, it goes to physical [85:52] AI as well, right? So, I think 20 years [85:54] from now, you can imagine that those 9 [85:57] million will be [85:59] 20 million uh AVs, maybe. But, we have [86:03] time between now and then, partially [86:05] because we don't operate in the virtual [86:07] world, right? We operate in the physical [86:08] world. You have to get the regulations [86:10] up. You have to build the cars. You have [86:11] to build the sensor stacks. The The [86:13] models have to get there. So, there is [86:16] time between now and then but you can [86:18] imagine the majority of our trips being [86:22] fulfilled by robots of some kind. [86:25] Probably not 10 years from now [86:27] but you go 15-20 years from now, you're [86:30] going to start getting there. [86:32] What do the 9 million people do? [86:35] I don't know. [86:36] Now we are expanding the kind of work [86:39] that's available on on on the platform [86:42] partially as a result of it, right? We [86:43] used to be the only work is driving, now [86:46] there's delivering, you can have [86:48] shoppers as well. I think it'll be a a [86:50] little while at least before you get AI [86:52] shoppers. And now actually we have a [86:54] team called Uber AI solutions that [86:57] allows people to train [87:00] these same agents and train AI agents [87:03] and AI models [87:05] and do all kinds of knowledge-based work [87:07] on their phone as well to kind of extend [87:11] the kind of work that we offer humans on [87:14] our platform and different opportunities [87:16] for them for them to to make money. So [87:19] we are extending the platform and then [87:20] the question is how much of the platform [87:22] gets automated and what's the velocity [87:25] of which we can extend our platform into [87:26] other kinds of work versus the velocity [87:28] of automation. I can't tell you which is [87:30] going to go faster. Hands-on heart [87:32] though, [87:33] it does appear that unemployment is [87:34] going to be significantly increased in a [87:36] world of AI especially we just imagine [87:38] this sort of continued rate of [87:39] improvement. I just can't You would have [87:42] to I unless again [87:45] historically in societies new kinds of [87:47] jobs have come up. Knowledge jobs, [87:50] physical jobs. [87:50] >> Yeah, I mean And now we've disrupted [87:52] both. [87:53] That's why there's a question here and I [87:55] do think there's a real question as to [87:57] the ability of societies to retrain, the [87:59] abilities of human beings to retrain [88:01] themselves. AI is going to be a part of [88:04] that but the timing there, how fast is [88:07] it going to go? It's a real question [88:08] mark. I think you're absolutely right. I [88:10] don't think it's going to be a big issue [88:13] big issue uh in the next 5 years, but [88:16] when you go 5 plus years, it's going to [88:18] become more of a more more of an issue [88:20] for society at large. It's interesting [88:22] cuz what I was thinking putting two and [88:23] two together about your your your [88:25] father's journey of coming to the US, [88:26] losing what he had, losing his job, and [88:28] the the loss of like meaning and purpose [88:30] being really central to him. And I could [88:31] see that in basically from your face [88:33] that I think what I interpreted from [88:36] your face was that he struggled with as [88:38] any provider would, the loss of like [88:41] meaning that comes with cuz jobs aren't [88:42] just about money. They're It's [88:44] especially, you know, [88:45] they give you a sense of worth. [88:47] And it's funny. I I I read I read a [88:49] study many years ago that said when they [88:51] looked at [88:52] suicide letters specifically from men, I [88:55] think it was an Australian study, [88:56] in the suicide letters, the the [88:59] sentiment was about not feeling [89:02] worth. Yes. For to your family. Yeah. [89:06] And the extreme of that was I think my [89:07] family would actually now be better off [89:08] without me. [89:10] Interesting. And um [89:12] and this kind of, you know, I think is [89:13] probably [89:15] adjacent to this conversation around job [89:16] displacement, which is where are we [89:17] going to find our meaning [89:19] in a world where [89:22] the machines have now disrupted our [89:23] intelligence and our muscles. [89:26] It's every universal income basic income [89:29] test has failed. [89:31] You know, the answer that you hear from [89:32] folks is, "Well, the robots are going to [89:35] do all the work. They're going to create [89:37] um utility. And so, our work won't have [89:41] to create utility, so people will just [89:42] have money." [89:44] But it goes to exactly what you're [89:46] saying, which is every single test [89:47] they've done No, it's not 20, but [89:49] they've done a couple tests where [89:51] certain section of the population, [89:52] similar population, gets income, certain [89:54] section doesn't, and every time the ones [89:57] who are getting income [89:59] do worse in terms of outcomes because, [90:03] well, we don't know the because. But I [90:05] think the because is related to what [90:06] you're saying, which is [90:10] market forces kind of that force someone [90:15] to work then create [90:17] a perception of self-value. Succeeding, [90:20] you know, most people succeed if they're [90:22] driven to succeed, they will succeed. [90:24] And as they succeed, it comes with a [90:26] very, very deep and important feeling of [90:30] I am creating value. I'm supporting my [90:32] family. I'm [90:34] uh building this incredible piece of [90:35] art, etc. Whatever that value is to you [90:38] and wherever that meaning comes from, [90:39] I'm an incredible parent. That value is [90:43] what keeps people going. [90:45] Uh and I don't think that, you know, the [90:48] government is raining money down on [90:50] society is going to help. It's [90:52] refreshing to hear your perspective on [90:53] this because a lot of the time, you [90:55] know, you'll hear CEOs in the media just [90:57] saying, "It'll be fine. Everyone's going [90:58] to figure it out." And I think that's [91:00] such a cop-out. [91:01] >> we have figured it out. So, maybe [91:02] they're right. But but you have to ask [91:04] whether they're giving you the real [91:06] stuff or not. Yeah, and that's kind of [91:08] what I That's what I I think is I [91:09] sometimes hear about private [91:10] conversations. In the private [91:11] conversations, I hear about the sheer [91:12] amount of disruption that they [91:13] anticipate. And then when I see them on [91:15] like CNBC or at Davos, it's like, [91:17] "Everything will be fine. We'll figure [91:17] it out." And I understand the incentive [91:19] because if they were to start ringing [91:20] the bell, [91:22] it might hurt their own chance of like [91:23] innovating and fundraising and all those [91:25] things. But I think you sit at this sort [91:27] of happy medium of being, yeah, as the [91:29] CEO of Uber, you've got to take you've [91:31] got to pursue the opportunity in the [91:32] technology. But on the other hand, to be [91:34] honest and say, "Listen, there's going [91:35] to be big disruption and we I don't know [91:37] the answers." I remember you were [91:39] talking about CNBC. A CNBC anchor once [91:41] we had an interview and afterwards, [91:43] she said, "You know, I really like you. [91:46] You actually answer my questions." [91:48] >> [laughter] [91:48] >> And I'm thinking to myself, [91:50] what am I not supposed to? There There's [91:52] like the the PR training is always if [91:55] you get a bad question, don't answer the [91:57] question, just pivot to something else. [91:59] And for me, like I've I've sworn to [92:01] myself uh and Noah who's who's up there [92:04] is probably going to kill me afterwards. [92:05] It's just I'm going to answer the [92:07] question. I'm not going to do the BS. [92:10] And again, I have to think [92:12] the anchor knows what's happening. [92:14] The audience knows what what's [92:16] happening. So, I'm like, "Oh, I'll [92:17] answer the question." If it's a shitty [92:18] question, I'll deal with it. I actually [92:20] don't like interviewing CEOs, which is [92:21] funny cuz the name of the podcast, [92:22] because active CEOs [92:23] >> did how did the the [92:25] cuz I I looked before I came on. I'm [92:27] like, "I'm going to look up on [92:29] uh the uh yeah, the CEOs." And there [92:31] aren't that many CEOs. Well, if I looked [92:33] at your diary, [92:35] what would I find inside your diary? I [92:36] would probably find you contending with [92:38] being a father, your psychology. I might [92:40] find some things in there about your [92:41] health. I can see you're a guy that goes [92:42] to the gym. [92:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um and I think it's all [92:44] interlinked. I think for you to be an [92:46] exceptional CEO, you probably think a [92:48] lot about your past, your childhood, [92:50] your health, your how to optimize, and [92:52] all these things. And so, [92:54] honestly, you can't do a podcast like [92:55] this for 20 years and just hit the same [92:58] thing every week. [92:59] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. You need to be like I [93:00] need to be intellectually stimulated. [93:02] And you and me are both multifaceted [93:04] creatures, I guess. So, that's why it's [93:06] evolved. [93:07] >> Until we become AIs. [93:08] Until we become AIs. [93:10] Yeah. [93:11] Just closing off on that then. Um [93:14] what can we do about this from an AI AV [93:16] perspective? Is it the government's [93:18] responsibility? Is it collective action? [93:22] So, one is I do think that we don't talk [93:25] enough in that for example, the [93:26] autonomous AI can be a force for good, [93:28] right? It's these drivers are going to [93:30] be safer than human beings. [93:32] And those we can take the 35,000 [93:34] fatalities to 3,000 fatalities, etc. I [93:38] do think that the AIs, the AV is going [93:41] to bring down the price of [93:42] transportation. So, a a big part of our [93:47] goal is to make on-demand transportation [93:49] available for everybody. One of the [93:51] folks that I was talking to was talking [93:52] about how Uber has changed her mother's [93:55] life. Like her mom can get around and it [93:56] just wouldn't get around without it, [93:58] right? We want more moms like that. So, [94:01] I do think it's important to recognize [94:03] that if transport fundamental [94:05] transportation becomes safer, it becomes [94:07] cheaper, going back to Jevons paradox, [94:10] that's a good thing for society, right? [94:14] I don't think that the answer as it [94:17] relates to society is to try to slow [94:20] down the pace of change because [94:23] China won't. For example, if we're uh [94:26] talking about the West. So, I think you [94:28] just have to lean into it. [94:30] I think that discussions like this are [94:31] important. I think you look for [94:33] technology leaders who are talking about [94:36] it. Dario, for example, Anthropic is [94:38] talking uh about it. Pissing some people [94:40] off, but I think he's having good [94:42] discussions there. And then I do think [94:44] that [94:46] the the society arming up to be able to [94:49] retrain [94:50] large groups of people at scale [94:54] is not a skill. I don't see people [94:56] investing in that. [94:58] And I don't see that as a core [94:59] capability of any [95:01] of our countries, etc. If there's one [95:03] thing I can come up with, it would be [95:04] that is the retraining machine. You've [95:07] got four four kids. Yes. [95:09] They come to you, they say, "Dad, [95:10] listen, AI, [clears throat] robotics, [95:12] what give me some advice for my future. [95:13] What should I be doing?" [95:14] >> Work hard. [95:15] You're going to be fine. [95:17] Work hard. [95:18] It's It's just that's I mean, now the [95:21] AIs theoretically can can work harder [95:22] than you, but I I find [95:26] one of the pieces of advice I give to [95:27] young people is don't plan. [95:30] Okay, I wind up we went through our [95:31] history. I wind up where I am today [95:36] having not planned a thing. I didn't [95:38] when I was a investment banker, I wasn't [95:39] dreaming of becoming a CEO, etc. [95:42] And And what I find is that people who [95:44] have too much of a career plan, who have [95:46] too much clarity about what they're [95:47] doing, they they lose their curiosity. [95:51] And And human beings look for positive [95:54] signal, right? You, whether you like it [95:57] or not, [95:58] anytime someone agrees with you, makes [96:00] you feel a little bit better. [96:01] Anytime you get signal that goes against [96:04] your preconceived notions, either you [96:06] ignore it or you're like, [96:08] "All right, [ __ ] I'm going to I'm going [96:09] to take this on." It's unpleasant. [96:11] And so, [96:12] with with career planning, what I find [96:15] is people who have too clear a career [96:17] plan, [96:18] they're looking for signals that feed [96:20] into their career plan. I'm going to be [96:21] a vice president by this much. I'm going [96:23] to make X money by this much. And [96:25] they're not looking around. They're not [96:26] being curious. They're they're not [96:27] looking for signal that can change, you [96:30] know, their life. And and and so, what I [96:32] tell some folks is like, "Before you go [96:34] out and try to change the world, let the [96:36] world change you first." [96:38] You know, take input. [96:40] And if you're like this, you got [96:43] blinders cuz I'm going here, you're not [96:46] going to take input. You're not going to [96:47] let You're not going to take all the [96:49] stimulus coming in from the world. So, [96:52] it's, you know, the one constant I see [96:54] is [96:55] people who are good are good. People who [96:57] are good. I've never seen a successful [96:59] person in in a job or a career get there [97:02] without [97:04] working hard. And my guess is, I don't [97:06] know about you, you kind of wound up [97:08] where you wound up [97:09] wound up kind of by accident. [97:11] >> right. And people are like, "Well, you [97:12] got lucky." I got very lucky [97:15] to be here. Like, I had so many kind of [97:20] moments. And and some would say I took [97:23] advantage of that [97:24] of that luck, but to some extent, I was [97:26] able to take advantage of that luck [97:28] because I was open. [97:29] Being open, you jumped from Expedia to [97:32] Uber. Um in part helped by some advice [97:35] that our mutual friend Daniel Ek, the [97:37] founder of Spotify, gave you. Uh he's [97:38] actually just text me. I text him [97:39] saying, "Hey, can you uh [97:41] can you send me a question to ask [97:42] Daniel?" But he said, "I'm in the middle [97:43] of You're texting while we're talking. [97:44] Damn it. No, just before I walked in. [97:46] I've just looked at you, he text me back [97:47] saying he's on an earnings call. [97:48] >> [laughter] [97:49] >> Never mind. [97:51] But um he said good luck with the [97:52] interview. Um what did Daniel Ek say to [97:54] you that helped to you form that [97:56] decision to go to Uber? So, he's the one [97:58] who recommended, I think I was I was uh [98:01] contacted by headhunter. He recommended [98:03] me to the headhunter who called me. [98:06] Uh I told them I was actually at the [98:07] Allen & Company conference going back in [98:09] a uh circle with him and we were having [98:11] a drink one night and he asked me, he's [98:13] like, "Did the headhunter call you? [98:14] There's this Uber role." And at the at [98:16] the time Uber was a disaster, like [98:18] disaster, and everyone was reading about [98:21] it. I was at Expedia, I had just gotten [98:23] this wonderful contract that you said at [98:25] the beginning. So, I was I was going to [98:27] stay and I love working for Barry. We're [98:29] like it it it's been it's been [98:32] the best professional partnership of of [98:34] my life. [98:35] And I said, "Of course I'm not going to [98:37] go, you know, I'm so happy about what [98:38] I'm doing at Expedia." [98:40] And Daniel like looks at me, he's got [98:42] got his like cold Scandinavian eyes. [98:45] He's like, "Dara, since when is life [98:48] about being happy? [98:50] It's about making impact. Uber's a great [98:53] company and you can have an impact on [98:56] that company. You've got to [98:58] do this." [98:59] So, the next day [99:02] I had called the headhunter previously, [99:04] I said, "No, no, no, I'm not [99:04] interested." The next day I called the [99:06] headhunter and I said, "Let's talk." So, [99:08] Daniel was the one who [99:10] opened me up. And your dad? [99:12] He gave you advice? [99:13] >> Well, I talked to my dad and uh as my [99:17] dad is [99:19] keeps things simple and he said, "Dara, [99:21] in his farsi, [99:23] when a company who's a verb [99:26] tells you to run it, you just say yes." [99:29] So, I thought that was good uh [99:32] good advice and and ultimately I think [99:34] people [99:35] who [99:37] come to Uber stay at Uber. [99:39] They They because of the challenge, but [99:41] they stay because of the impact. Like we [99:44] are building a company that is important [99:47] to the world. And for me, I could come [99:49] and I could have an I could have an [99:50] impact an impactful company, so why the [99:52] hell not? And when he says a company [99:54] that's a verb, he's referring to the [99:55] fact that everybody in the the taxi or [99:58] transportation category uses Uber as a [100:01] verb to even if they're talking about a [100:03] competitor. Exactly right. Um and [100:05] there's always one company in every kind [100:06] of kind of industry that does that. [100:09] >> We have a closing tradition here where [100:10] the last guest leaves a question for the [100:11] next guest not knowing who they're [100:12] leaving it for. And the question left [100:14] for you [100:15] is what is one conversation that if you [100:17] could rewind time and have, you would [100:19] have today but can no longer have? [100:24] It was a conversation with both my dad. [100:27] Um [100:29] you know, I told you I came to New York [100:31] from San Francisco and it was because my [100:34] dad was getting very old and he was [100:36] losing his mental facilities. [100:39] And I'm glad I came back and I got to [100:42] spend time with him. [100:43] But those last times, you know, when I [100:45] spent time with him, it wasn't really [100:46] him. [100:47] And I wish I could talk to him about his [100:51] experiences, [100:52] his younger life, the excitement of [100:55] building something, and then the loss [100:57] and regrets he had in in life as well. I [100:59] never had, you know, my relationship [101:01] with him was kind of [101:03] was there was love. No question about [101:05] love. [101:06] But we didn't have the deep kind of [101:08] conversations that certainly I'm hoping [101:11] I get to have with my kids. So that's a [101:13] conversation I'd love to have. [101:14] And you can't get uh time back. [101:17] Uh and that's one of the tragedies of [101:18] life. [101:20] But it's also one of the beauties of [101:21] life, you know, which is there are some [101:22] mistakes that you make that are [101:24] permanent. [101:25] Um and you can't get that back. [101:28] But my then making genuine conversations [101:31] with you and connections with my friends [101:34] and having a real relationship not just [101:37] with my wife and my kids, but actually [101:41] like with my workmates. [101:42] You know, we [101:44] having those genuine conversations and [101:46] connections [101:47] um is my way of correcting [101:51] for the conversation I never had with my [101:52] dad. [101:57] Darth, thank you. Thank you very much. I [101:59] appreciate it. You're a huge inspiration [102:00] for me in so many ways and even more so [102:02] now having done so much research on you [102:03] in preparation for this conversation [102:05] because it is it is rare to find a [102:07] leader who has been consistently [102:09] successful across different domains, [102:10] who's built this really, really, in my [102:12] opinion, quite rare skill stack from [102:14] investing to CFO to then being able to [102:15] transition to CEO and then has [102:18] repeatedly contended with moments of [102:19] transition and given us all frameworks [102:22] as founders and entrepreneurs for how to [102:23] deal with that transition. One of the [102:24] great ones I take away from you is is [102:27] honesty. Yeah, honesty is so powerful [102:29] and I'll tell you I learned I learned [102:31] that skill from my wife. She's just [102:33] she [102:34] she knows like people are people. [102:36] Doesn't matter, you know, they eat, they [102:38] crap, they have to go to sleep and she [102:40] treats everybody in her life the same [102:43] way regardless of their position in in [102:45] uh Like your dad did. [102:46] >> Uh yeah. Yeah, and she's she's on- [102:49] honesty [102:51] is just so powerful. [102:54] Thank you so much. You're very welcome. [102:55] >> An unbelievable inspiration. Thank you. [102:57] I appreciate it. [102:59] YouTube have this new crazy algorithm [103:00] where they know exactly what video you [103:02] would like to watch next based on AI and [103:05] all of your viewing behavior and the [103:06] algorithm says that this video is the [103:09] perfect video for you. It's different [103:11] for everybody looking right now. Check [103:13] this video out. I bet you you might love [103:15] it.