Hancock Challenges History Prior to Surgery, Citing Lost Ice Age Civilization

汉考克术前挑战传统历史，援引失落的冰期文明 Graham Hancock 认为，古代天文标记与新仙女木期撞击证据证明，一个先进的全球文明在 12,800 年前毁于一旦。 Graham Hancock 提出了关于大约 12,800 年前新仙女木期因彗星撞击而毁灭的先进人类文明的证据。他指出古代岁差天文学、水下建筑、亚马逊地画，以及哥贝克力石阵（Göbekli Tepe）和大金字塔等精密巨型结构，都是失落的高超知识的证明。结合自身体验死藤水与萨满教的丰富经历，汉考克还批判了现代科学的教条主义，并反思了人类意识、生死以及爱的变革力量。 格雷厄姆·汉考克探讨了新仙女木期彗星撞击假说，指出约 12,800 年前的彗星碎片撞击引发了全球性大洪水与急剧降温，导致史前文明遭遇毁灭性打击并造成人类的集体记忆断层。 (6:38) 摩洛哥 Jebel Irhoud 发现的 31.5 万年前智人化石证实人类大脑容量与智力早已完备，汉考克质疑主流历史学将文明起源仅限定在 6,000 年前的合理性。 (14:55) 1531 年奥朗提乌斯·费纳乌斯古地图提前数百年绘制了南极洲轮廓，加上 11,600 年前的哥贝克力石阵巨石遗迹，表明在传统定居农业出现前人类就已掌握高超的航海、制图与天文测绘能力。 (16:24) 吉萨大金字塔以仅 3 弧分的极高精度对准天文正北，其高度与底座周长按 1:43,200 的比例精确对应地球极地半径与赤道周长，并系统性地编码了 25,920 年的地轴岁差周期。 (41:38)

Author Graham Hancock argues that humanity is an "amnesiac species," asserting that an advanced prehistoric civilization was largely erased around 12,800 years ago by a cometary cataclysm and that its legacy survives within global mythology, anomalous cartography, and megalithic architecture. The Younger Dryas Cataclysm and Human Antiquity (6:38) Hancock challenges the conventional archaeological timeline that complex human civilization emerged only 6,000 years ago. He points to fossil evidence—such as the 315,000-year-old Homo sapiens remains discovered at Jebel Irhoud, Morocco—to argue that anatomically and cognitively modern humans existed for hundreds of thousands of years before forming recorded cities. To account for this prolonged gap, Hancock highlights the Younger Dryas impact hypothesis, which posits that Earth collided with fragments of a 100-to-200-kilometer comet approximately 12,860 to 12,800 years ago. According to Hancock, cosmic airbursts ignited global wildfires, triggered rapid glacial melting, and induced a catastrophic 1,200-year deep freeze alongside megafaunal extinctions. He points to the physical Younger Dryas boundary layer—marked by nanodiamonds, microspherules, iridium, and soot—as material proof of this global disruption. He cites Göbekli Tepe in Turkey, dated to roughly 11,600 years ago, as evidence that complex architectural organization and astronomical alignment existed well before the formal development of settled agriculture. Encoded Mathematics and Ancient Cartographic Anomalies (41:38) Hancock argues that survivors of this lost era, remembered in tradition as the Sumerian Apkallu or Egypt's Followers of Horus, preserved and transmitted advanced scientific knowledge through encoded myth and monumental architecture. He highlights the Great Pyramid of Giza, noting its alignment to true astronomical north within 3 minutes of arc and its proportional relationship to Earth's dimensions based on a 1:43,200 scale factor. Multiplying the pyramid’s height and perimeter by 43,200 yields the polar radius and equatorial circumference of the Earth, a number Hancock links to the 25,920-year cycle of the precession of the equinoxes documented in Giorgio de Santillana's Hamlet's Mill. In cartography, Hancock cites the 1531 Orontius Finaeus map as evidence that ancient seafaring societies surveyed Antarctica centuries before its documented discovery in 1820. He claims such maps reflect accurate calculations of relative longitude, a navigational capability that modern European civilization did not solve until John Harrison developed the marine chronometer in the mid-18th century. Amazonian Engineering and Non-Physical Technologies (65:12) Turning to the Amazon basin, Hancock rejects the characterization of the jungle as an untouched wilderness. Citing modern LiDAR technology and deforestation surveys, he notes the discovery of between 3,000 and 6,000 geometric earthworks (geoglyphs) linked by road networks, as well as vast tracts of terra preta—fertile, man-made soil cultivated by ancient populations. He claims these findings confirm that the Amazon once sustained millions of inhabitants engaged in sophisticated regional engineering. Hancock connects ancient social development to shamanism, describing altered states of consciousness induced by plant medicines like ayahuasca and DMT as valid perceptual technologies. Analogizing psychedelics to the microscope, he argues that altered states allow direct exploration of non-physical realms and consciousness. He contrasts this approach with mainstream scientific reductionism, which he criticizes for treating consciousness merely as a biological byproduct of brain chemistry. Scientific Dogma, Media Scrutiny, and Civilizational Risk (96:07) Addressing his academic critics ahead of planned heart surgery and an anticipated journalistic exposé, Hancock rejects labels of being a "grifter" or promoting racially biased historical narratives. He contends that mainstream academia defends orthodox historical models with dogmatic territoriality, arguing that modern culture risks unthinkingly worshipping a "machine god" by treating scientific consensus as an unassailable authority rather than a dynamic process of continuous questioning. Drawing parallels to Mesopotamian flood narratives like the Atrahasis epic, Hancock warns that contemporary civilization displays the same hubristic trajectory described in ancient cataclysm myths. He cautions that advanced technology—such as artificial intelligence and nuclear weaponry—has dangerously outstripped human spiritual and moral maturity, leaving society vulnerable to self-destruction or future cosmic hazards, including debris encounters from the Taurid meteor stream. Hancock presents his 30-year research career not as settled definitive proof of a lost civilization, but as an ongoing challenge to dogmatic orthodoxy, urging modern society to investigate anomalous data, explore human consciousness, and remain mindful of the fragility of human civilization.

作家Graham Hancock主张，解剖学意义上的现代人类虽已存在逾30万年，但主流历史叙事遗失了关于史前先进文明的记忆；他认为约12,800年前的新仙女木期彗星撞击事件曾重置人类历史，而散布全球的巨石遗迹、古代地图与口述神话正保留了该文明的科学遗产。 人类起源跨度与新仙女木彗星撞击假说 (6:38) Hancock指出，摩洛哥Jebel Irhoud发现的31.5万年前智人化石，以及埃塞俄比亚Omo Kibish出土的19.6万年前遗骸，彻底打破了过去认为现代人类仅存在约5万年的学术共识。他质疑，拥有相同大脑容量与认知机制的人类不可能等待超过30万年才发展出复杂社会。针对文明发展中出现的历史断层，Hancock援引彗星研究团队（Comet Research Group）提出的新仙女木撞击假说，认为距今约12,860至12,800年前，一颗直径100至200公里的巨型彗星碎裂，其碎片流在北美、欧洲至叙利亚一带的大气层中发生剧烈空爆。 该撞击事件在沉积层中留下了包含微玻璃球、纳米钻石、铂、铱及野火烟尘的新仙女木界线层。Hancock认为，撞击引发冰盖急剧融化并造成全球海平面突发性上涨，随后导致地球陷入长达1,200年的新仙女木极寒期（持续至约11,600年前）。这一灾难不仅导致猛犸象、乳齿象等第四纪冰期巨型动物灭绝，也重置了早期人类的技术演进轨迹。 巨石工程与古地图中编码的天文地理数据 (16:24) Hancock澄清，他所假设的史前文明并非拥有手机或航天器的工业社会，而是掌握了高超航海、制图和天文学技能的文明。作为证据，他列举了1531年的Orontius Finaeus地图，该图在现代1820年正式发现南极洲数百年前便绘制了其轮廓，并展现出精确的相对经度计算能力，而西方世界直到18世纪中叶John Harrison发明航海天文钟才克服经度测量难题。此外，土耳其距今11,600年的哥贝克力石阵（Göbekli Tepe）表明，狩猎采集群体在发展定居农业之前，就已能组织建造重达20吨且具备天文对齐特征的T型巨石群。 在埃及吉萨高地，重约600万吨的大金字塔被精确对齐至天文真北，误差仅在3弧分（1度的六十分之三）之内。大金字塔的高度与底周长乘以43,200分别对应地球的极半径与赤道周长；43,200不仅源于地球自转轴岁差运动（以72年移动1度为基准构成的25,920年大周期），同时精确对应古印度《梨俱吠陀》的总音节数。Hancock认为，这表明建造者继承了远古时期关于地球尺寸与岁差周期的精密计算，而非如主流学术界所称的巧合。 知识守护者传说与亚马逊盆地的文明重估 (49:21) 针对古老知识如何在灾难后幸存的问题，Hancock指出各大古代文明中均记载了负责传承知识的隐秘组织，例如埃及的“荷鲁斯追随者”（Followers of Horus）以及苏美尔神话中在大洪水前后指导人类文明的“七贤者”（Apkallu）。苏美尔文献中阿特拉哈西斯（Atrahasis）受神明指示建造装载动植物种子的方舟以躲避神降洪水的记述，直接成为后世圣经诺亚方舟故事的原型。Hancock认为全球数百个文化中关于黄金时代因人类傲慢堕落并毁于大洪水的记忆，是对真实地质大灾变的传承。 在考古勘查方面，激光雷达（LiDAR）技术正在推翻亚马逊雨林属于原始蛮荒之地的旧观念。相关调查已在林冠下测绘出3,000至6,000处大型几何地画及绵延超100公里的古道网络，证实当地曾存在依赖高度肥沃的人造黑土（terra preta）维持数百万人口的大型社会。Hancock强调，主流考古学界应将重心从北部高纬度冻土转向热带避难区，以寻找冰期文明遗失的章节。 意识维度、科学教条批判与现代文明存续 (80:49) 除了物质遗迹，Hancock探讨了古代意识形态与萨满经验，将死藤水（Ayahuasca）和DMT等植物致幻剂比作探索非物质现实的“显微镜技术”。这些体验促使个体直面内心过错与道德拷问，与古埃及《亡灵书》中奥西里斯殿堂内用真理之羽称量心脏的审判具有相似的道德内省机制。他批评现代还原论将意识简单降格为大脑物质的副产品，呼吁人类在盲目推行火星殖民前应先探索内心与精神觉知。 面对即将进行的心脏手术以及外界对其“骗子”或“剥夺原住民成就”的指责，Hancock表示自身研究属于开放式探究而非断言绝对真理。他警告现代社会正在将科学异化为不可置疑的“机器神”，违背了科学本身依赖批判与质疑的核心精神。他提醒，面对核战争、失控的人工智能以及地球每年两次（6月与10/11月）穿越金牛座流星雨流带来的潜在天体撞击风险，缺乏精神成熟度与历史敬畏的现代文明同样面临走向自我毁灭的危险。 Hancock强调自己并未声称已从实证上彻底证实史前失落文明的存在，其研究旨在提出假设并挑战学术界对历史解释的垄断。他呼吁考古学界克服领地主义并采用新技术重新审视异常数据，同时强调批判性独立思考与避免傲慢是人类避免重蹈历史灭顶之灾的关键。

## Background 本期内容由知名播客频道 The Diary Of A CEO 于 2026 年 6 月 11 日发布在 YouTube 平台上。视频简介指出，畅销书作家兼调查记者 Graham Hancock 在面临重大心脏手术前夕，揭示了大约 12,800 年前抹去人类早期历史的全球大灾难、吉萨大金字塔深藏的远古天文地理知识，以及他通过 80 次死藤水仪式对人类意识本质的深刻洞察。 ## TL;DR Graham Hancock 结合新仙女木彗星撞击假说，系统阐述了约 12,800 年前摧毁高度发达史前文明的全球大浩劫，指出人类本质上是一个患有失忆症的物种。他深入剖析了胡夫金字塔以 1:43,200 比例精确缩放地球尺度并对准天文真北等工程奇迹，以及亚马逊雨林激光雷达勘探揭开的庞大失落农业聚落。Hancock 还反思了自身童年创伤与 80 次死藤水体验，批判了当下将科学异化为新宗教的盲目崇拜与部落主义傲慢，并警示现代文明若不转向内在精神觉醒与独立思考，将面临重蹈覆辙甚至核自毁的严重危险。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话笼罩在一种肃穆、深沉而又极具紧迫感的气氛中，由于 Hancock 即将面临生死未卜的心脏大手术，这番倾囊相授带有一种交代遗志般的坦诚与悲壮。主持人 Steven Bartlett 展现出极高的同理心与纯粹的好奇，营造出安全而专注的对谈场域，让 Hancock 在谈及学术打压、妻子无私的爱以及对父母的未竟遗憾时数度动容哽咽。聆听过程宛如一场穿越万年时空与人类潜意识维度的思辨之旅，既有对宇宙天文与远古遗迹的敬畏震撼，又交织着直面衰老、死亡与文明危机的深切叩问。 ## Bulletin - [06:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=398s) 约12,800年前的新仙女木事件（Younger Dryas）可能是由巨型彗星碎片空爆与撞击引发，导致地层中富集纳米金刚石与铂金异常，并突发融水脉冲与长达1,200年的极端冰期，重置了史前高等人类文明。 - [19:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1186s) 土耳其距今11,600年的哥贝克力石阵（Göbekli Tepe）和秘鲁5,500年前的卡拉尔-苏佩金字塔表明，大型复杂建筑工程先于定居农业出现，彻底推翻了传统考古学认为农耕盈余是文明先决条件的教条。 - [41:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2500s) 吉萨胡夫大金字塔以1:43,200的比例尺精确缩放了地球极半径与赤道周长，其四面误差小于3弧分精确对准天文真北，其常数编码源自72的倍数，直指地轴岁差（Precession）周期。 - [01:05:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3946s) 激光雷达（LiDAR）在亚马逊雨林探测到数千处巨型几何地画与人工古道路，证实该地区曾非原始蛮荒，而是依靠人造黑土（Terra Preta）供养着数百万人口的高度组织化文明。 ## Key takeaways - [14:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=895s) 智人在生理和脑容量上至少已有31.5万年历史，认为人类等待了30万年才在6,000年前突然建立文明的传统观点，忽略了人类历史中被大灾难抹去的前序篇章。 - [17:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1021s) 1531年的奥龙蒂乌斯·费瑙斯地图等古代海图精确标注了南极洲及成熟的相对经度测定，暗示在末次冰期前存在掌握精密航海与制图技术的失落文明。 - [02:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=158s) 全球各民族关于大洪水的古老神话并非局部水灾的原始迷信，而是史前人类以口述方式代代相传的种族记忆，精确记录了上代文明由黄金时代走向傲慢堕落并毁于天灾的历程。 - [23:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1399s) 冰河时期人类的宜居避难所位于赤道及热带板块（如墨西哥、印度、东南亚等），主流学界若仅在北欧或北美寻找文明起源属于严重的地理偏见。 - [52:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3141s) 大金字塔在第四王朝达到工程技术巅峰后，后续王朝的建造技艺出现断崖式衰退，表明该巨石工程是特定知识传承使命的终章而非循序渐进的法老陵墓。 - [49:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2958s) 古埃及的'荷鲁斯追随者'与苏美尔神话中的'阿普卡鲁七贤者'，暗示大洪水前后存在跨越千年的隐秘智囊组织，负责在灾后向早期王朝传递高级天文与工程遗产。 - [01:03:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3820s) 现代科学的发展历史仅有约150年，若与智人长达数十万年的经验相比仅是'鼻尖上的粉刺'，不应以狭隘的唯物主义教条傲慢否定占星术、心灵感应及非物质维度探索。 - [01:08:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4096s) 人类文明最初的灵感均深植于萨满传统（Shamanism），通过死藤水（Ayahuasca）和DMT等植物媒介进入改变意识状态，促使人们直面内在道德审判并重塑与万物的精神连接。 - [01:24:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5080s) 不同受试者摄入DMT后汇报出高度一致的超自然异界景观与实体接触，证明人类日常感知的'基底现实'极其脆弱，向内探索意识本质的优先级应远高于外太空殖民扩张。 - [29:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1773s) 现代技术力量已演变为摧毁生态的'地质力量'，若人类心智与精神觉醒未能同步跟上，极权部族主义与核武器等自毁倾向将让现代文明重蹈远古失落文明的灭顶覆辙。 - [01:49:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6573s) 盲从'相信科学'口号实质上是将科学异化为新时代的'机械神'宗教崇拜；真正的科学精神应当是保持批判性思维，永远捍卫独立调查与质疑一切的权利。 - [01:53:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6822s) 末次冰期结束时全球海平面暴涨淹没了2,700万平方公里的大陆架（面积相当于欧洲加中国），水下巨石遗迹证实人类最富庶的史前居住区如今正沉睡在近海深处。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=0s) 命悬一线前的最终自白 Graham Hancock 在节目录制伊始透露了一个沉重的心事：这极有可能是他最后一次公开谈论自己的生平与学术探索。因为再过几周，他将接受一场重大心脏手术，甚至有可能“无法活着走下手术台”。与此同时，一名对他怀有极深敌意的记者两年来一直在酝酿撰写一篇针对他的揭黑报道，并预计在一两个月内发表。Hancock 明确表示，自己绝不希望那篇恶意中伤的文章成为世人对他一生的最终定论。当主持人 Steven Bartlett 询问他希望留给世人的“最后一句话”是什么时，Hancock 坚定地表示，他来到这里的目的，是向全人类传达一个关于人类历史中被遗忘篇章的真相——一段关于史前失落文明的宏大事实。 主流学界普遍认为人类文明始于大约 6,000 年前，但 Hancock 坚信存在强有力的证据表明早在 20,000 年前就曾存在过高度发达的人类文明。他描绘了一个传说中的黄金时代：那时没有暴力与残虐，伟大的医者与智者在世间活跃，社会拥有极高的智慧与精神高度。然而随着时代推移，这些神话揭示了令人不安的异化：文明背离了最初的纯粹与仁善，开始向世界各地施加强权与支配。随后，一场被编码进神话叙事与科学线索中的超级大灾难彻底爆发，近乎将整个人类文明连根抹除。Hancock 警告称，今天的现代文明在傲慢与破坏力上正在逐一对应神话中失落文明走向毁灭的“所有特征”，如果我们无法及时觉醒，我们很可能会亲手引发下一次人类大洗劫。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 史前文明兴衰与当下的警示 accDescr: 展示失落文明从黄金时代走向腐化、遭遇天灾毁灭，并对当下现代文明形成的镜鉴。 subgraph GoldenAge["黄金时代（约20,000年前）"] A["高度纯粹的先进文明"] --> B["医者与智者主导，无暴力压迫"] end subgraph Fall["异化与浩劫（约12,800年前）"] B --> C["走向堕落，试图强行支配世界"] C --> D["遭遇全球性超级大灾难，文明覆灭"] end subgraph Warning["现代警示"] D --> E["幸存者将记忆与天文数据编入神话"] E --> F["现代文明正重蹈覆辙，面临自我毁灭风险"] end ``` ### [02:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=158s) 失忆的人类物种与主流考古学的盲区 回顾自己三十多年来倾注心血的研究历程，Hancock 形容自己是在面对一个巨大的人类历史谜题。他借用了学者 Immanuel Velikovsky 其著作《失忆的人类》（*Mankind in Amnesia*）中的核心概念，指出智人本质上是一个“患有失忆症的物种”，彻底遗忘了自身过去极其重要的一段岁月。主流考古学家固然提供了很多有用、有趣的信息，但面对史前人类留下的巨大谜团时，其解释往往极其苍白无力。 人类目前可解读的文字记载最多只能追溯到约 5,500 年前。对于距今 10,000、15,000 乃至 20,000 年前的漫长岁月，传统考古学唯一的认知手段就是“从泥土里挖掘残存的物理碎片”。Hancock 批评学术界盲目忽视了远古祖先以口述传统、神话、经文形式代代相传的记忆库。全球各地普遍存在着大洪水的记忆，圣经中的诺亚方舟只是数百个同类神话中的一个典型；柏拉图笔下关于亚特兰蒂斯（Atlantis）在剧烈洪水与地震中沉没的记述，同样记录了一场席卷全球、导致文明毁灭且仅留少数幸存者的浩劫。 面对这些惊人一致的古老叙事，主流考古学界往往嗤之以鼻，傲慢地将其贬低为“局部河流泛滥引发的夸张原始迷信”。Hancock 对这种解释感到厌烦与愤慨，他强调神话是人类在文字产生之前唯一的种族记忆库，绝不能被随意抛弃，而应将其与现代科学发现相互印证。 - **文字断代**：人类已知的可识读书面记录上限仅为 5,500 年左右，在此之前的历史极度依赖跨学科解读与口述传统。 - **神话的科学性**：麻省理工学院（MIT）科学史教授 Giorgio de Santillana 等人在 1960 年代出版的巨著《哈姆雷特的石磨》（*Hamlet's Mill*）中证实，世界各地的古老神话中隐藏着高度一致的数字与天文意象，精确指向“岁差”（precession of the equinoxes）这一复杂的长期天文周期，这需要数百上千年的持续精确天文观测方能掌握。 - **古地图谜团**：部分流传下来的古代地图甚至描绘了冰河时期的地貌轮廓，却被主流考古界一概打上“纯属巧合”的标签。 ### [06:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=398s) 新仙女木彗星撞击假说与天外风暴 当 Bartlett 追问全球大灾难的具体形态时，Hancock 强调自己的观点绝非无根据的空想，而是建立在被同行评议的严谨科学之上——即“新仙女木撞击假说”（Younger Dryas impact hypothesis）。该假说虽然在学术圈内引发了激烈争论，却拥有扎实的地质与天文依据。 据科学家推测，大约在 20,000 年前，一颗直径达 100 至 200 公里的巨型彗星从深空闯入太阳系，并被太阳的引力捕获进入环日轨道。该轨道与地球公转轨道产生交叉。当这种巨型彗星被大型行星或太阳的引力场撕裂后，原本作为单一实体的巨大天体便化解为数以万计的碎片风暴，散布在轨道上。其中最著名的残留碎片之一便是恩克彗星（Comet Encke，直径约 6 公里）。 在大约 12,800 年前（误差约 60 年），自转中的地球直接冲入了这片密集的天体碎片群。这并非如同 6,500 万年前灭绝恐龙的那种单一超大陨石撞击，而是一场席卷半球的“霰弹枪式轰炸”： - **广泛的撞击残留**：从北美西海岸、欧洲的比利时，一路向东延伸至叙利亚，跨大半个地球的地层中均检测到了新仙女木期的微玻璃珠球、纳米金刚石与铂金异常层。 - **空中爆炸（Airburst）的破坏力**：大量直径约 100 米的彗星冰石碎片在接触地表前便在大气层中发生空爆，每次空中解体所释放的能量都相当于数百万吨级乃至千万吨级当量的核爆炸。 - **气候的剧烈急转弯**：当时地球正逐渐摆脱末次冰盛期，气候在过去一两千年内持续变暖、环境日益适宜生存；然而在 12,800 年前彗星风暴发生的一瞬间，原本的温和变暖趋势被硬生生阻断，全球骤然坠入极端严酷的极寒冰期（即新仙女木期），整个地球的生态系统与史前文明遭遇了灾难性的人口清洗与技术清零。 ### [09:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=578s) 新仙女木事件：全球冰期大重置与彗星撞击假说 地球在经历了一段变暖阶段后，突然骤跌回极端的深寒之中。正是大约在 12,800 年前的这一时间窗口内，冰河时代著名的巨型动物群（Megafauna）遭遇了灭绝——真猛犸象、乳齿象以及高达 14 英尺（约 4.3 米）的地懒都在这场浩劫中消失殆尽。更不可思议的是，在这个时期全球海平面出现了一次极其神秘的骤升脉冲。按照常规古气候学逻辑，当全球步入寒冷期时，冰雪应在两极和大陆冰原上累积冻结，绝不应该融化汇入大海。 Graham Hancock 指出，新仙女木彗星撞击假说（Younger Dryas Impact Hypothesis）能够完美解释这一反常的融水脉冲：巨大的彗星碎块撞击地表以及剧烈的大气空爆释放出惊人热量，瞬间消融了大片陆地冰盖，引发海平面暴涨；随后，随之而来的遮天尘埃使全球陷入了长达约 1,200 年刺骨严寒的“深冻期”。直至约 11,600 年前，全球气温又突然剧烈回暖。这种剧烈气候波动的幅度远超当代任何气候变化。Hancock 强调，12,800 年前听起来遥远，但在人类漫长的历史上“不过是昨天”。主流考古学推测北美冰川湖逐渐蓄水冲垮冰坝、淡水灌入大西洋切断墨西哥湾暖流，但 Hancock 认为冰川湖短时间内以极高速度注满的现象本身，正是撞击突发融水的结果。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 新仙女木灾变气候连锁反应 accDescr: 展示彗星撞击引发冰盖融化、深冻期以及随后突然回暖的过程 subgraph Phase1["阶段一：撞击与融水脉冲 (~12,800年前)"] A["彗星撞击与大气空爆"] --> B["极高温度消融北美冰盖"] B --> C["海平面反常暴涨 / 巨型动物群灭绝"] end subgraph Phase2["阶段二：严寒深冻期 (长达1,200年)"] C --> D["尘埃与洋流阻断引发全球速冻"] D --> E["持续严寒的新仙女木冰期"] end subgraph Phase3["阶段三：骤然解冻 (~11,600年前)"] E --> F["气温断崖式急剧反弹回暖"] end ``` ### [11:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=689s) 迫在眉睫的心脏手术与最后的发声契机 当主持人 Steven Bartlett 问及为何特意选在今天录制这期对话时，Hancock 坦承了自己的身体状况。自当年一二月份起，他的健康状况急转直下，呼吸严重短促。经检查，他的一处心脏瓣膜发生衰竭，导致血液在心室内发生反流，而无法被正常泵送至全身器官，使得肺部无法获取充足的含氧血。在当前状态下，他连爬三级台阶都会极度虚脱；如果不接受手术，他或许还能苟延残喘两到三年甚至五年，但毫无生活质量可言。 因此，Hancock 决定在当月内接受大型心脏外科手术。他直言不讳地表示，虽然概率极低，但他确实存在“下不来手术台”的风险。一旦发生意外，这将是他最后一次在公开场合完整地谈论自己的人生、工作与承受的非难。促使他立刻站出来的直接原因，是一名对他怀有极深敌意的记者已经追踪调查了他两年多，并计划在一两个月内发表针对他的长篇报道。Hancock 决绝地表示，他不希望那篇报道成为盖棺定论自己一生的最后声音。 ### [12:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=757s) 面对学术界的非难：我不是骗子，而是感受到了使命的召唤 面对长期以来的争议，Steven Bartlett 询问 Hancock 希望对自己一生的总结是什么。Hancock 深吸了一口气，动情地表示，他最大的期盼是公众能够明白：他绝不是少数考古学家利用社交媒体妖魔化塑造的那种人——他既不是江湖骗子（grifter），也不是伪造者或骗徒。他已在这项探索中全情投入了三十多年，对其充满热忱。 Hancock 坦承，说出这句话可能会引来嘲笑，但他内心确实感受到了某种“使命的召唤”（called to do this），这已经成为他的一种责任与不可推卸的义务。针对外界常将他的理论斥为“邪教”或“狂热信仰”，Hancock 坚决反驳： - **并非宗教式信念**：他的立场不是建立在毫无依据的教条之上，而是源于对未解谜团的深深困惑。 - **全球集体记忆的吻合**：全球各地古老文明的创世与毁灭神话，均高度一致地指向了一场全球性的毁灭性灾难。 - **争议的焦点并非灾变本身**：地质学界对新仙女木事件是一场大灾变毫无异议，争议仅在于灾难的剧烈程度及其背后的诱发机制（撞击 vs. 太阳活动变化 vs. 冰坝破裂）。 ### [14:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=895s) 30万年的人类空白：我们真的等待了这么久吗？ 回顾三十多年前开始调查时的学术背景，Hancock 指出，在 1980 年代末和 1990 年代初，正统学界认为解剖学意义上的现代智人（Anatomically Modern Humans）出现时间不超过 50,000 年。然而后来的考古证据彻底推翻了这一共识：埃塞俄比亚发现了 19.6 万年前的智人遗骸，而摩洛哥杰贝尔依候（Jebel Irhoud）的最新发现更将智人的历史推进到了至少 31.5 万年前。 这意味着人类拥有与现代完全一致的大脑容量、神经结构和生理硬件已经至少 31.5 万年，甚至可能更久。Hancock 提出了一个尖锐的质问：既然我们拥有与现代人毫无二致的全部生理与智力装备，也有证据表明早期先祖早已懂得农业知识（只是当时未予广泛采用），为什么人类要“等待”漫长的 30 多万年，直到区区 6,000 年前才突然建立起第一批以城市为形态的文明？他认为最合理的推论是：我们并非等待了 30 万年，而是遗失了人类历史中至关重要的前序章节。 ### [17:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1021s) 超前地图与失落的航海文明：奥龙蒂乌斯·费瑙斯地图之谜 在澄清失落文明的形态时，Hancock 强调他指的绝非拥有手机、电力或登月火箭的“现代工业文明”，而是一种在特定领域攀登至极高造诣的异质文明，其核心代表便是**高级航海术**、**精确天文学**以及对**经度计算**的掌握。在被称为波托兰海图（Portolan charts）等古代地图中，便保留着不可思议的先验地理知识： - **奥龙蒂乌斯·费瑙斯地图（Orontius Finaeus Map, 1531年）**：该图绘制于 1531 年，却惊人地标注出了南极洲大陆。然而现代人类直到 1820 年才首次正式发现南极洲。地图作者在图注中明确说明，自己是参考了“更早之前沉睡于黑暗中”的古老原始底图。 - **精准的相对经度测定**：绘制这幅地图的前辈文明具备极高的相对经度定位技术。在航海史中，经度测定是一项致命难题，稍有偏差就会导致船只离海岸线比预估近 300 英里而在夜间触礁沉没；西方现代科学直到 1750 至 1760 年代约翰·哈里森（John Harrison）发明精密航海计时仪后才真正攻克经度问题。古地图上展现出的成熟经度测绘能力，至今仍是主流考古学无法自圆其说的盲区。 ### [19:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1140s) 炭黑层中的铁证：新仙女木地质界线 谈及是否存在 20,000 年前且被新仙女木灾变抹去的文明证据，Hancock 援引了他与彗星研究团队（Comet Research Group）科学家艾伦·韦斯特（Alan West）在现场考察的一张地质剖面照片。照片清晰展示了一道约 5 英寸（约 12.7 厘米）厚、横穿沉积地层的黑色带状条纹——即著名的“新仙女木界线”（Younger Dryas Boundary, YDB）。 - **炭黑与煤烟沉积**：该地质层由全球大范围剧烈野火焚烧后留下的炭黑构成。 - **微观物理撞击证据**：在这一层中富集了微米级纳米钻石（Nanodiamonds）和微玻璃陨石球粒（Microspherules），这两者皆为宇宙彗星撞击产生极高压和极高温环境下的标志性产物。 - **地外稀有元素异常**：地层中检测到了明显的铂（Platinum）和铱（Iridium）异常富集，直接印证了外太空地外天体大范围撞击地球的地质事实。 ### [19:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1186s) 新仙女木事件的分界线与文明的真正定义 屏幕上展示了一幅河流冲刷出的剖面地质图，清晰可见一道深色的条纹切穿地层。这道黑色条纹正是距今约 12,800 年的“新仙女木事件分界层”（Younger Dryas Boundary layer）。主流考古学界长期坚信，在距今 12,000 年之前地球上根本不存在任何人类文明，但葛瑞姆·汉卡克（Graham Hancock）指出，地质与考古证据正不断推翻这一预设。 谈到如何定义“文明”，汉卡克强调，其根本核心在于**劳动力的组织协调**——无论这种组织是出于自愿还是被迫。以土耳其距今约 11,600 年的哥贝克力石阵（Göbekli Tepe）为例，它是一个规模庞大且结构高度精密的遗址。遗址中矗立着巨大的 T 形巨石柱，单块重量可达 20 吨，并具备极其精准的天文对齐特征。如此宏伟的工程绝不可能仅凭两三个人搭伙完成，它需要庞大的组织动员体系、周密的事前规划和图纸设计。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 从传统考古范式到新发现的认知颠覆 accDescr: 展示主流考古学对农业与文明关系的传统假设，以及哥贝克力石阵与卡拉尔苏佩如何推翻该模型。 subgraph Traditional["传统考古学观点"] A["发展定居农业"] --> B["产生富余粮食"] B --> C["社会分工分化<br/>(工程师/天文学家)"] C --> D["构建大型巨石工程与城市"] end subgraph Disruption["全新考古学发现"] E["纯粹的狩猎采集群体"] --> F["哥贝克力石阵<br/>(11,600年前巨石工程)"] F --> G["其后1000年间才逐步出现农业"] H["卡拉尔-苏佩文明<br/>(5,500年前抗震金字塔)"] end Traditional -.->|"被反向证据颠覆"| Disruption ``` - **哥贝克力石阵的现状与规模**：如今该遗址上方搭建了现代保护棚以防风化；其建造者在当年曾将其故意掩埋。探地雷达（GPR）扫描显示，地下仍埋藏着数百根尚未发掘的巨石柱。 - **狩猎采集者的组织壮举**：哥贝克力石阵开建时，当地根本没有任何农业迹象，完全是由狩猎采集者规划并交付的；这在安纳托利亚（Anatolia）并非个例，周边还有数十个同类遗址，揭示出一个组织高度成熟的史前狩猎采集社会。 - **年代学衔接**：针对主持人关于冰期结束（约 11,700 年前）与该遗址（约 11,600 年前）仅隔 100 年的疑惑，汉卡克解释该时期的定年存在浮动范围。关键事实在于，随着气候回暖、环境改善，这类巨型工程随即拔地而起。 --- ### [23:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1399s) 冰期生存策略与被忽视的热带避难所 当主持人好奇人类是否真在冰河时代生存下来时，汉卡克给出了斩钉截铁的肯定回答：“天哪，那是当然，我们活下来了。”核心问题只在于：在冰河时代，理性的人类究竟会选择居住在哪里？ 任何理性的生存者都会果断避开北欧那片冰封酷寒的荒野，也会迅速排除北美北部与西伯利亚的极寒环境。相反，人类会迁徙至赤道周边的热带地区，那些未受冰期直接肆虐的地带才是当时地球上最宜居的“顶级黄金地段”。因此，主流学者如果只在北欧或北美寻找人类失落的历史篇章，纯粹是在白费力气；真正的探索线索深藏于墨西哥、印度、印度尼西亚以及巴布亚新几内亚等热带板块。 关于智人的生理演化，距今约 30 万年前在摩洛哥杰贝尔依侯（Jebel Irhoud）发现的早期智人与 2 万年前的人类在生理构造上并没有根本差异——他们同样是解剖学意义上的现代人类，智力与感知别无二致。漫长岁月里他们大多过着小规模群居的狩猎采集生活，直到约 11,600 年前，某种前所未见的规划力量与大型建筑体系突然爆发。 --- ### [25:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1550s) 全球高阶文明的同步爆发与秘鲁的抗震智慧 大约在距今 5,500 年前（约公元前 3,500 年），人类文明开始在考古学记录中全面显现：美索不达米亚的苏美尔开始筑城造字；埃及文明几乎在同一窗口期迅速崛起；印度河流域文明也在约 5,000 年前成型。更为震撼的是，在地球另一端的南美洲秘鲁，卡拉尔-苏佩文明（Caral-Supe civilization）同样在 5,500 年前平地拔起，建造了宏伟的金字塔群。 | 文明遗址 / 区域 | 距今年代 | 典型特征与建筑技术 | 传统认知冲突 | |:--- |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **苏美尔 (美索不达米亚)** | 约 5,500 年前 (前 3500) | 早期城市兴建、楔形文字起源 | 被长期视作人类文明的最早摇篮 | | **古埃及** | 约 5,500 ~ 5,300 年前 | 早期国家形态、象形文字与巨石建筑 | 新证据表明其与苏美尔出现时间几乎重叠 | | **卡拉尔-苏佩 (秘鲁)** | 约 5,500 年前 | 金字塔、下沉式圆形广场、抗震“网袋碎石”结构 | 远早于印加文明（600年前），非农业起步 | | **印度河流域文明** | 约 5,000 年前 | 高度成熟的城市规划与排水系统 | 展现亚非拉多地文明同步繁荣的神秘同步性 | 汉卡克特别指出，大众一提到秘鲁往往只联想到马丘比丘或印加帝国，但印加文明距今仅有 600 年，犹如“就在昨天”。而卡拉尔（Caral）、阿斯佩罗（Aspero）、班杜里亚（Bandurria）等地的金字塔要古老数千年。为了抵御强烈地震，建造者发明了惊人的抗震工程学：他们不采用整体硬性石块堆砌，而是把小石块装入织物编制的袋子（shicra bags）中充当建筑基座，利用松散石袋的位移吸收震波能量。这再次颠覆了旧范式——当时他们同样属于前农业社会，彻底打破了“唯有农耕盈余才能孕育建筑文明”的铁律。 --- ### [28:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1704s) 失落的篇章：从黄金时代到傲慢的陨落 世界各地的古老神话中都共同保留着对一段“遗忘篇章”的集体记忆，那被普遍描绘为一个没有暴力、残虐与纷争的“黄金时代”。在这个史前时期，大智者与卓越的疗愈师发挥着核心作用，而诸如心灵感应（telepathy）和念力（telekinesis）等如今被现代科学嗤之以鼻、视为荒诞不经的心灵潜能，在当时的人类社会中曾是司空见惯的日常生活法则。那是一个直接从萨满传统（shamanism）中汲取灵感、崇尚精神内省的至善文明。 然而，汉卡克在深入梳理各民族神话流变后发现，叙事在后半段均出现了戏剧性转折：这个文明逐渐偏离了起初的纯洁本心，逐渐蜕变成一个凭借强大力量在世界各地耀武扬威、压迫支配他人的霸权。各大洲远古神话在解释毁灭性全球大灾难的成因时，归宿出奇一致——人类的自负、堕落与喧嚣激怒了神明，最终招致了将上一代文明彻底抹杀的灭顶之灾。 ### [29:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1773s) 灾难神话与现代人类的自毁危机 汉考克在探讨全球洪水神话时指出，几乎所有古老神话中都存在一种无法轻易解释的共性：人类的不敬激怒了神明，神明对自己的造物感到不满，于是降下大洪水意图洗刷一切并重新开始。这背后始终贯穿着一种人类“自食其果”的心理烙印。当主持人询问这是否只是古人因不理解自然力量而寻找的心理托辞时，汉考克反驳道，这恰恰可能反映了对自然力量更深层次的理解。人类绝非脱离自然的独立存在，而是一个紧密相连的整体系统中的一部分。如今人类的活动已经构成了一种“地质力量”（geological force），甚至更可怕的是，人类已演化为一股充斥着愤怒、仇恨、猜忌与同类相残的“心灵力量”（psychic force），这必然会对自然生态产生剧烈扰动。 环顾当下文明，汉考克认为现代社会几乎完全契合了神话中记载的“失落文明”走向毁灭的所有特征。如果展望未来一万年到一万五千年后，现代文明很可能沦为后世口中难以置信的神话与幻想：后代考古学家或许会断言“古人能跨越半球实时通话、能飞往月球、能潜入大洋深处”纯属无稽之谈。然而这一切真实发生过。更为讽刺的是，现代文明走向湮灭甚至不需要借助彗星撞击或太阳风暴等天体灾变，单凭人类自身在精神与心理上的病态便足以自我了断——核武器的本质正是集体性的物种自杀行为。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代文明的自毁循环与神话投射 accDescr: 展示人类负面心灵力量如何演化为毁灭性武器并最终自我毁灭为未来的远古神话 subgraph Mindset["心理根源与认知局限"] A["狭隘部族主义 / 极权民族主义"] --> B["仇恨与分裂的心灵力量"] B --> C["低意识层级的政治叙事操弄"] end subgraph Escalation["物质力量的放大"] C --> D["地质与科技级毁灭手段<br/>(核武器与生态失衡)"] end subgraph Outcome["历史周期重演"] D --> E["文明自毁与遗忘"] E --> F["万年之后的'远古超级神话'"] end ``` --- ### [32:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=1930s) 部族主义之殇与掌权者的意识低能 汉考克痛陈当今世界领导阶层的意识水平极其低下。这些被他戏称为具有“错乱青少年心智”（mentality of deranged teenagers）的政客们，凡事仅从纯粹的物质利益考量，不断煽动仇恨并操纵民意。他尖锐地批判了狭隘的“民族主义”，认为其本质上只是原始部族主义的延伸，是人类作为一个物种必须尽快摆脱的幼稚阶段。他不希望看到因肤色和出生地等偶然因素而划分阵营，更无法接受“因你长相与我不同、理念与我相左，我便要杀戮你”的荒谬逻辑。 在此汉考克特别澄清，摒弃民族主义绝不意味着建立一个中央集权的“世界政府”。作为一名字面意义上的无政府主义者（anarchist），他主张的是消除政府体制的枷锁，拥抱人类文化的多样性与天赋特质，而非用强权整齐划一。针对主持人“是大众自己选出了这些领导人”的观点，汉考克无奈地指出，这恰恰暴露了当今世界操纵舆论叙事是何其轻而易举——在当下的选举机制中，最终胜出的往往并非善良或致力于造福人类之人，而是最擅长传播与操弄情绪的话术高手。 --- ### [34:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2056s) 远古航海文明与边缘探索者的使命 重新审视关于大洪水的源头，汉考克以美索不达米亚的《阿特拉哈西斯史诗》（Epic of Atrahasis）为例，指出苏美尔神话中神明恩基（Enki）告诫阿特拉哈西斯建造巨大方舟、带上万物种子与各色动物的故事，完全就是后来诺亚方舟故事的原型与母本。针对主流学界将这些记载斥为无稽之谈，汉考克坦承自己从未断言已经从科学上“证实”了失落文明的存在，但作为研究者，面对重重疑团他必须追查到底。 他进一步驳斥了主流考古学认为史前人类不可能掌握高级航海技术的成见： - 解剖学意义上的现代人类早在 6 万年前就已跨洋抵达澳大利亚。 - 14,000 年前的人类就已乘船进入地中海的塞浦路斯岛。 - 波利尼西亚人仅凭双体独木舟便完成了征服浩瀚太平洋的壮举，证明航海并不依赖现代金属与内燃机引擎。 对于主流学界将古代精细地图上出现未冰封南极洲等现象轻描淡写地解释为“巧合”或“为了让地球平衡而臆造的陆地”，汉考克认为这种托辞漏洞百出。在当下科学逐渐演变为一种如同旧日宗教般具有垄断性排他地位的时代，社会迫切需要敢于逆流而上的特立独行者（mavericks）去打破思维僵局。汉考克强调，自己两周后即将接受重大的心脏手术，生命有赖于现代医学的拯救，因此他绝不反对科学，但他坚持认为“科学应当是人类认知军械库中的一件利器，而不应是唯一的武器”。 --- ### [37:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2278s) 吉萨大金字塔：令人窒息的工程精度 话题随后转向埃及吉萨高原上的大金字塔（胡夫金字塔）。对于大众普遍将其视作一堆普通混凝土或泥砖方块的误解，汉考克纠正道，整座建筑全部是由开采出的重型石灰石和坚硬的花岗岩巨石垒砌而成，其真实面貌远超现代人的工程想象： - **基底尺寸与极端精度**：大金字塔每个边长约为 750 英尺（约 230 米），令人惊骇的是，各边长度之间的误差仅有几分之一英寸。对于建造如此庞大的四棱锥结构而言，基准面的绝对精准至关重要——倘若地基出现微小偏差，向上延伸时误差便会呈指数级放大，整座建筑最终将扭曲成无法闭合的“开瓶器螺旋”，根本无法成型。 - **体量与构件数量**：大金字塔的总重量估算高达约 600 万吨，由超过 200 万块巨型石块严丝合缝地堆叠而成。 - **亲身体验的压迫感**：汉考克曾先后 5 次亲自攀登大金字塔。除 4 次独自登顶的经历外，有一次恰逢吉萨高原举办大型聚会野餐，成百上千名开罗市民一同涌上金字塔攀爬，石块巨大的体量与结构本身的雄伟给他留下了永恒的震撼。 ### [39:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2373s) 胡夫金字塔的工程奇迹与精准朝向 谈及攀爬胡夫金字塔（Great Pyramid）的经历，格雷厄姆·汉考克感叹建造这座建筑的难度超乎想象。在斜度高达 52 度的陡坡上攀爬，最危险的往往是周围的人——一旦上升两到三层石块，只要失足摔下就必死无疑，根本没有缓冲或停住的可能。汉考克指出，至今每年仍有人因攀爬金字塔丧命，这也是埃及官方最终明令禁止攀爬的原因。 更令人震惊的是金字塔令人不可思议的工程精度。这座重达 600 万吨、原高 481 英尺的庞然巨物，其朝向对准的是真正的天文真北（True North），而非偏差 10 到 11 度的地磁北极。它的对齐误差仅在六十分之三度以内（即 3 个弧分）。在这样庞大的体积下，内部还布满了大走廊（Grand Gallery）、上升通道与下降通道等复杂空间系统。汉考克认为现代文明确实有技术能力做到，但根本不会有动力去做：“人们会说，光是建一个 600 万吨的遗迹就够累了，你还要它绝对对齐真北？这规格也太苛刻了。” 汉考克特别澄清了一个长期存在的误区：金字塔绝非奴隶劳工建造的产物。古王国时期根本不存在奴役制度，从第一块石头到最后一块石头，这完全是一项充满热爱、极致技艺与敬畏之心的杰作。此外，金字塔坐落于北纬 30 度附近，正好位于赤道与北极点之间三分之一的位置。 - **建筑自重**：约 600 万吨 - **原始高度**：481 英尺（约 146.6 米，1301 年大地震中震落约 30 英尺） - **斜坡倾角**：52 度 - **朝向精度**：误差小于 3 弧分（3/60 度），精准锁定天文真北 - **地理纬度**：几乎精准落在北纬 30 度（赤道到北极距离的 1/3 处） --- ### [41:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2500s) 1:43,200 尺度与地球维度的数学编码 胡夫金字塔在尺寸设计上暗藏了地球的真实物理比例，其缩放比例为精确的 1:43,200： 1. **极半径编码**：将胡夫金字塔的原始高度乘以 43,200，得到的数值等于地球的极半径（从地心到极点的距离）。 2. **赤道周长编码**：将胡夫金字塔底座周长（四边之和）乘以 43,200，得到的数值等于地球在赤道上的最大周长。 主流考古学家虽然清楚这一数学事实，但普遍认为这纯属“巧合”。汉考克反驳道，如果比例尺是 1:57,000 或 1:21,000，他或许也会同意这只是偶然；但 43,200 这个数字绝非随意出现。它是 72 的倍数，在世界各地的古老神话中反复登场。例如，古印度《梨俱吠陀》（Rigveda）中的音节总数正是 432,000（43,200 的十倍）。麻省理工学院（MIT）科学史教授乔治·德·桑蒂利亚纳（Giorgio de Santillana）在经典著作中早已证实，这套围绕 72 及其倍数的神秘数字系统，根源于天文学上的核心现象——岁差（Precession of the Equinoxes）。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 金字塔尺寸与地球物理维度的比例关系 accDescr: 展示胡夫金字塔的高度与底周长如何通过 43200 这一岁差系数精确对应地球极半径与赤道周长 subgraph Pyramid["胡夫金字塔测量值"] H["原始高度"] P["底座周长 (四边总和)"] end subgraph Constant["天文数学常数"] Scale["比例因子: 1: 43,200<br/>(72 的倍数 / 岁差编码)"] end subgraph Earth["地球物理尺寸"] R["地球极半径 (Polar Radius)"] C["地球赤道周长 (Equatorial Circumference)"] end H -- "× 43,200" --> R P -- "× 43,200" --> C ``` --- ### [42:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2574s) 地轴摆动与岁差：从双鱼座到水瓶座时代 为了让主持人彻底理解岁差的概念，汉考克用动作形象地比喻地球自转轴的“晃动”（Wobble）。地球并非直立平稳旋转，其地轴在自转的同时存在极其缓慢的周期性摆动。这种晃动直接造成两大肉眼可见的长期天象变化： 1. **北极星的更替**：目前的北极星是勾陈一（Polaris），而在 4000 年前的古代，指向正北的北极星是天龙座的右枢（Thuban）。 2. **春分日出背景黄道星座的倒退**：普通年份中，太阳在黄道带中的运行方向是向前推移的；但在长周期尺度下，由于地轴晃动，春分那一天太阳升起时背后的黄道星座是在逆向倒退的。 在古代占星与天文学中，春分（Sun rises due east）被视作定义整个年度特质的关键时刻。太阳所在背景的黄道星座被称为“太阳之宫”。沿着太阳运行的黄道轨道（Ecliptic），分布着熟悉的黄道十二星座。 每个星座纪元大约持续 2,160 年（即 72 × 30 度），而走完整个黄道十二宫重回起点的“大年”（Great Year）在古代神话体系中被精确定义为 25,920 年。过去 2000 年里，春分日出始终映衬在双鱼座（Pisces）背景下，这也是早期基督教选用鱼作为核心象征的原因。如今，我们正处于双鱼座向水瓶座（Aquarius）交接的过渡期，预计在未来 150 年内太阳将完全离开双鱼座，迎来名副其实的“水瓶座时代黎明”（Age of Aquarius）。 --- ### [47:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2845s) 远古失落知识对现代历史观的冲击 主持人向汉考克梳理并确认了这一论证链条：金字塔的设计者将地球的极半径和赤道周长，以 43,200 的比例尺精确固化在石造建筑中。这无可辩驳地证明了两个事实： - 建造者早已精确掌握了地球的形状与周长。 - 建造者选址于北纬 30 度具有极强的地理与宇宙象征意义，它牢牢锁定地球的真北与地球本身的几何尺度。 主流历史学界通常认为，希腊天文学家喜帕恰斯（Hipparchus of Alexandria）在距今约 2000 年前才首次发现了岁差现象；而人类直到几百年前才真正测定出地球的精确周长。然而，4500 年前建造的胡夫金字塔不仅早已通晓地轴摆动的岁差周期，更将其融入到建筑几何与神话隐喻中。汉考克断言，这种知识在金字塔落成之时就已经是极其古老、经过长期传承的智慧。它向世人宣告，金字塔绝非毫无意义的法老荒冢，而是一座直接“与地球对话”的宏伟知识丰碑。 ### [49:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2958s) 远古智慧的传承与失落的贤者组织 大金字塔所展现出的宏大构图与精确测量，实际上正以数学语言直接与这颗星球对话。当被问及古埃及人何以在 4,500 年前就知晓地球周长时，格雷厄姆·汉考克给出的答案直截了当：这源于一个被遗忘的史前失落文明，甚至可以追溯到两万年前。这并非古埃及人凭空创造的知识，而是一笔代代相传的文化遗产。这种传承并非仅仅依靠口耳相传的神话与寓言故事，更有可能依托于某种长期潜伏、跨越千年的隐秘组织网络。 汉考克透露他在新书中正在深入探讨一个极为惊人却高度吻合现有线索的设想：在不同的古文明中，都活跃着神秘顾问的身影。在古埃及，他们被称为“荷鲁斯追随者”（Followers of Horus）；在古代苏美尔，他们被称为“阿普卡鲁”（Apkallu）或“七贤者”（Seven Sages）。在苏美尔传说中，阿普卡鲁在史前大洪水（Pre-diluvian）之前就已存在并向人类传授知识，浩劫过后幸存的贤者又作为最初历代国王的智囊指导政务。汉考克推测，世界各大宗教与祭司阶层能将传统制度维系数千年，在末次冰期结束时，同样可能存在某种驱动力促使幸存者建立秘密团体。他们隐于幕后、引导社会，耐心等待文明引擎能够重新被点燃的时机。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 史前知识传承机制假说 accDescr: 展示失落文明如何通过神话与隐秘组织跨越大洪水将知识传递给历史时期的国王。 subgraph PreDiluvian["大洪水前纪元（末次冰期前）"] A["失落文明与高级天文/数学知识"] --> B["早期阿普卡鲁 / 贤者传授智慧"] end subgraph Cataclysm["全球性大灾变"] B --> C["大洪水与冰期终结浩劫"] end subgraph PostDiluvian["历史复兴期"] C --> D["幸存智囊：荷鲁斯追随者 / 七贤者"] D --> E["传承载体：神话故事与密仪组织"] E --> F["辅佐早期王朝君主 / 编码至宏伟巨石建筑"] end ``` - **知识传承的双重载体**：一种是将精密的天文与地理数据编织进能够千古流传的神话故事中；另一种则是建立隐秘兄弟会或祭司团体在幕后掌舵。 - **神职长寿机制的对照**：汉考克指出人类历史上有诸多维持数千年传统的教派与职位，因此存在一个专门跨越灾难保存古老知识的隐秘学派完全合乎逻辑。 --- ### [52:21](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3141s) 建造技艺的骤降与大金字塔的地球编码 在第四王朝的吉萨金字塔群落成之后，埃及的建筑技艺出现了一个极其诡异的现象：金字塔营造水平不仅没有按正常文明规律不断精进，反而出现了断崖式的坍塌。进入第五、第六王朝，以萨卡拉的乌纳斯金字塔（Pyramid of Unas）为例，其内部墓室美轮美奂，天花板饰有璀璨的繁星，墙壁铭刻着震撼的象形文字；但其外部结构却粗制滥造，如今看起来宛如一堆无法辨认的碎石废墟。这种“大功告成，便就此搁置”的突变，暗示着第四王朝的巨石杰作绝非普通陵墓，而是一项特定使命的终章。 大金字塔如同一枚巨大的问号横亘在吉萨高原，它的存在不仅是为了某一个世代，更是面向数千年后的人类发出呼唤：“来了解我，破解我；在解开我的过程中，你们将领会到远超眼前的浩瀚真理。”根据现行的科学史范式，当时的人类根本不可能掌握如此精密的天文与测绘数据，但大金字塔却把两千五百年后才被近代科学重新发现的地球尺度固化在了巨石之中。 - **工艺发展的逆向断层**：通常人类技艺随时间演进而成熟，但埃及金字塔建造技术在第四王朝之后急剧衰退，呈现出反常的断代。 - **刻意选择的进动比例**：大金字塔坐落于具有特殊地理意义的纬度，四面精确朝向正北，其长宽高度是以源自地球地轴进动（Precession）的特定比例缩放地球维度，完全排除了巧合的可能。 --- ### [55:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3342s) 麦蒙盗洞、地下百尺密室与吉萨地底世界的争议 针对大金字塔下方是否存在隐藏空间的疑问，汉考克给出了极度肯定的答复。如今游客进入金字塔所走的“盗墓者通道”（或称“麦蒙洞”），源于公元9世纪阿拔斯王朝哈里发阿尔·麦蒙（Caliph al-Mamoun）的强行开凿。当时金字塔外层仍包裹着严丝合缝、光滑如镜的精细石灰岩饰面，入口隐蔽不可见。工匠们使用大锤与凿子向内掘进六七十英尺后，因听到内部空腔有重物坠落的声响才循声打通了原有的走廊系统。 穿过走廊既可向上到达大走廊，亦能一路向下潜入垂直位于基岩下方 100 英尺的地下室（Subterranean chamber）。汉考克回忆道，在那间被 600 万吨巨石压顶且处于地震带的狭小基岩密室中，幽闭感令人极其窒息，而那里很可能才是吉萨高原上最早的原始圣地。不仅如此，近年雷达遥感探测更暗示吉萨地底潜藏着更为庞大的未知世界。科学家菲利波·比昂迪（Filippo Biondi）关于哈夫拉金字塔（Khafre）地下数百英尺存在巨大螺旋楼梯等深层构造的研究，招致了主流考古学界歇斯底里的排斥与封杀。汉考克批评这种不加检验便斥为不可能的治学态度毫无科学精神，并主张应先在土耳其结构已知的地下城（如卡伊马克勒 Kaymakli）对该探测技术进行标定测试。古埃及人原本就将吉萨称作“罗斯托”（Rostau），意即通往冥界的大门，这暗示着吉萨地底或正沉睡着一个庞大的地下世界等待被重新发掘。 - **阿尔·麦蒙的强行突破**：传说大金字塔原本有机关可以如按动开关般开启石门，但因外包石平滑无缝，开凿队只能盲目凿石，最终因回音误打误撞进入原有甬道。 - **基岩地下室的极端压迫感**：深潜于地表之下 100 英尺，头顶承受着整座庞大金字塔的重量，汉考克特别提醒患有幽闭恐惧症的人切勿涉足。 - **探测技术的标定建议**：主张将用于扫描金字塔的地底雷达技术带到土耳其卡伊马克勒等已被完全测绘的地下城进行对比验证，若数据吻合，即可强有力证实吉萨地底未知巨构的真实性。 ### [58:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3533s) 独自置身大金字塔：与远古奇迹的无声对话 吉萨高原作为通往冥界亡者领域的入口，地下存在庞大交错的地下构造是完全合乎逻辑的。当主持人询问格雷厄姆·汉考克（Graham Hancock）是否曾独自置身于金字塔内时，汉考克分享了极其独特的个人体验。对他而言，大金字塔本身就像一个拥有独立“人格”的实体。如果跟随着大批喧闹的旅行团进入，金字塔仿佛会主动向内收缩、隐退，不再与人交流，整个空间顿时沦为冰冷、空洞的“死亡死寂之所”。然而，若能独自一人或仅与极少数人待在内部，静静坐着，让绝对的静谧笼罩下来，沉浸在昏暗幽微的灯光中，感受便截然不同。 在这种时刻，人会猛然意识到自己正伫立在古代世界最后幸存的奇迹之中，这是一种无上的特权。只要敞开心扉倾听，金字塔就会对你说话。汉考克坦言，批评者听到这里肯定又会讥讽“汉考克是个疯子”，但他坚持这正是自己的真实体验——金字塔是一座能够传递信息的活纪念碑。当主持人追问金字塔到底对他说了什么时，汉考克微笑着回答：“它对我说：‘继续走下去’（Go further）。” 这种来自大金字塔的奇妙认可，不仅赋予了汉考克深沉的信念，也支持着其他毕生投入其中的探索者，比如罗伯特·鲍威尔（Robert Bauval）。鲍威尔提出的“猎户座对应理论”（Orion Correlation Theory），揭示出吉萨三座金字塔在地面的排列精确对应着猎户座腰带的三颗恒星，从根本上颠覆并重塑了人类对古埃及文明的认知。然而，这一重大假说在提出之初便遭到了汉考克口中“考古黑手党”（archaeological mafia）的群起围攻，因为主流学界往往习惯于立刻扼杀一切颠覆性的新理论，而不是花时间去严谨思考。 - **大金字塔的场域感受**：在喧嚣人群中化为死寂，但在独处与沉寂中散发出具有沟通感的“人格”。 - **猎户座对应理论**：由罗伯特·鲍威尔提出，指出吉萨三座金字塔的地面布局精准复刻了猎户座腰带三星的排列。 --- ### [01:00:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3643s) 中场赞助与合作介绍 节目在此处插播了商业赞助内容。主持人首先推介了冷萃冻干咖啡品牌 Cometeer，介绍其在咖啡风味最佳瞬间进行急速冷冻锁定风味的工艺，并提到他们走遍洪都拉斯、巴拿马、英国、美国、意大利与法国等产地打造的“世界马克杯大赛盒”（World Mug Competition Box），该产品无需咖啡机即可享用。随后，主持人介绍了国际旅行 eSIM 服务应用 Saily，指出其打破了传统实体塑料 SIM 卡受单一运营商绑定的局限，为超过 200 个目的地提供带有内置网络安全防护的数据漫游连接。 --- ### [01:02:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3764s) 远古文明假说的警示：打破人类中心主义与傲慢 如果智人早在两万多年前甚至更早就发展出先进文明的假说是真实的，这对于当代人类的生存与生命究竟意味着什么？汉考克严肃指出，这一认知最大的意义在于它能一劳永逸地给现代人敲响警钟：**整个人类史诗根本不是围绕着我们运转的**。当前的一切绝非不可避免的唯一演进终局，现代文明与其他所有历史文明一样，本质上都是脆弱而暂时的。 当代人类沉醉于自身的科技成就与强大力量，陷入了极端的盲目自大之中。古希腊人将这种盲目的狂妄称为“傲慢”（Hubris），而傲慢的终局必然引来“复仇女神的毁灭制裁”（Nemesis），最终将文明拖入深渊。汉考克强调，自大傲慢在个体身上是一种恶习，而一旦出现在整个文明层面，更是一场灾难性的毁灭力量。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 现代文明傲慢与远古周期的警示路径 accDescr: 展示科技膨胀如何导致文明傲慢，以及远古毁灭周期所揭示的历史宿命与自我反思。 subgraph Hubris["现代困局"] A["科技与力量膨胀"] --> B["陷入文明级傲慢 (Hubris)"] B --> C["招致宿命惩罚 (Nemesis)"] end subgraph AncientCycle["远古视角的警示"] D["两万年前先进文明毁灭"] --> E["打破人类中心主义终局论"] E --> F["重拾敬畏与文明谦逊"] end C -.->|历史警示| D ``` --- ### [01:03:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3820s) 重新审视占星术与心灵感应：科学不过是人类经验鼻尖上的粉刺 主持人提到，如果接受了远古时期的复杂知识，许多曾被现代人斥为“阴谋论”或“巫术迷信”的事物或许都值得重新审视，例如占星术。汉考克表示完全赞同，现代人不应轻易摒弃古人世代沿用的知识体系。占星术的底层哲学并不是浅薄的宿命论，而是认识到人类并非孤立的存在，而是与整个浩瀚宇宙密不可分地交织在一起；宇宙中发生的一切变迁都在无形中影响着地球上的生命，其中蕴含着深刻的宏观规律与模式。与其一味嘲讽，不如展开认真的实证研究。 汉考克进一步谈到了心灵感应（Telepathy）和意念移物（Telekinesis）。他提到了自己的好友、严肃科学家鲁珀特·谢尔德雷克（Rupert Sheldrake），他是极少数敢于对心灵感应等现象进行正规科学实验的学者之一。主流科学界对这些研究大多报以冷嘲热讽，斥之为无稽之谈，甚至把研究者打成疯子。 汉考克为此提供了一个发人深省的时间尺度对比：人类这一物种拥有数十万年的生存与经验传承（他认为甚至远超 315,000 年），而现代科学的萌芽就算往前宽容地追溯到古希腊，但真正演变成今天人们所认知的系统科学，也不过是 19 世纪以来的近 150 年历史。如果把数十万年的人类深厚经验比作一个健全完整的人体，那么所谓 150 年的现代科学，充其量只是“长在人类鼻尖上的一颗小粉刺”。以一颗小粉刺的微末视角，去狂妄地全盘否定几十万年的人类经验与神秘感知，正是当代最典型的盲目。 - **占星术的深层内核**：视人类为宇宙网络的一部分，承认天体宏观周期对生命与物质系统的相互影响。 - **鲁珀特·谢尔德雷克**：主流之外极具勇气的科学家，持续对心灵感应与非物质交互进行严谨探索。 - **文明时间尺度比喻**：人类数十万年的演化积淀是一整个主体，150年的现代科学仅是鼻尖上的一颗微小粉刺。 --- ### [01:05:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3946s) 颠覆亚马逊荒原神话：激光雷达揭开的失落帝国与黑土奇迹 对话转到了南美洲大陆。主持人分享了自己探访秘鲁亚马逊雨林的经历，提及那里最新勘探出的巨型地下方形遗迹。汉考克随即指出，这些巨大的几何构造被称为“地表几何雕刻/地画”（Geoglyphs）。在大约 40 年前，由于亚马逊雨林终年被遮天蔽日的厚重树冠层所笼罩，根本没有人知晓它们的存在。 具有讽刺意味的是，正是由于近代人类为了开辟农田牧场而大面积砍伐、平整亚马逊森林，这些原本被植被掩埋的惊人巨型几何构造才首次裸露在世人眼前。如今，技术的革新改变了考古范式。汉考克曾与芬兰考古学家马尔蒂·佩尔西宁（Martti Pärssinen，曾受邀出演其 Netflix 纪录片）以及巴西地理学家阿尔西奥·兰齐（Alceu Ranzi）合作，利用机载激光雷达（LiDAR）对巴西阿克里州（Acre）展开了密集的透空扫描。激光雷达的脉冲能够直接穿透森林树冠层，精准测绘出林下地形起伏与隐藏的地表构造轮廓，使考古学家无需大规模砍伐，只需派出微型地面团队即可深入现场展开低破坏性的考古勘探。 这一系列发现彻底粉碎了现代学术界长期以来的教条认知——过去人们始终坚信亚马逊雨林自古以来是一片“与世隔绝、纯粹未被驯化的原始蛮荒之地”，只生活着极少数漫无目的四处游猎的原始部落。而激光雷达与田野发掘揭示了完全相反的真相： | 维度 | 传统历史认知 | 激光雷达与现代考古全新发现 | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **地理与生态定位** | 未经触及的原始蛮荒丛林（Pristine Wilderness） | 人工高度深度改造的生态农业与居住景观 | | **地表几何建筑群** | 认定不存在大型人工聚落土木工程 | 发现 3,000 至 6,000 多处巨型几何地画与工程遗迹 | | **交通与交通网络** | 仅靠天然河流独木舟穿行，无陆路系统 | 发现延伸超过 100 公里的宽阔人工古道路系统 | | **承载人口规模** | 零星分散的游猎部落，人口承载力极低 | 依靠先进生态工程技术，曾承载数以百万计的人口规模 | | **土壤改良技术** | 热带雨林土壤极其贫瘠，无法维持定居农耕 | 掌握惊人的“亚马逊黑土”（Terra Preta）人造肥沃黑土技术，沿用至今 | 汉考克指出，远古亚马逊原住民展现出了极高超的雨林土壤管理智慧，他们人工合成创造出的“亚马逊黑土”（Terra Preta），成功打破了热带雨林酸性贫瘠土壤无法供养密集农业的自然限制。整个人类学与历史学界目前正被迫全方位重构对亚马逊的认知：这里曾是一个拥有数百万人、具备高度规划组织力与大地工程能力的繁盛失落文明。 ### [01:08:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4096s) 亚马逊地画与所有文明的萨满起源 随着植被之下的遗迹不断被发掘，笼罩在亚马逊雨林上的面纱正在被揭开，一段完全未被书写的历史逐渐展现在世人面前。这片雨林曾是一支庞大人口的家园，古人生活在城市规模的聚落中，并依靠笔直宽阔的道路网将各个聚落彼此相连。更令人惊叹的是大地上那些精准规整的几何地画——长方形、三角形、圆形与正方形。“这些几何构造究竟在亚马逊雨林里扮演什么角色？”在拍摄 Netflix 纪录片期间，汉考克就此向当地一位萨满求证。萨满明确表示，这些由祖先建造的圣地至今仍对他们至关重要，它们是专门用于萨满集会、与“彼岸世界”沟通交流的通道。 汉考克坚定地指出，尽管现代社会极力否认，但人类所有的文明在本质上都发源于萨满教（Shamanism）。萨满教构成了“人类冒险探索历程的核心精髓”，其本质是一套利用改变意识状态（altered states of consciousness）直接进入多维现实层面的体系。无论是远古还是现代，文明最初萌发的智慧种子都与这种深入意识维度的探索密不可分。 ### [01:09:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4176s) 死藤水与 DMT 的生物学奥秘 当主持人史蒂文·巴特利特询问进入这种改变状态是否主要依靠致幻剂时，汉考克解释道，虽然长达一个月的禁食断食同样能引发幻觉，但植物致幻剂无疑是进入改变意识状态最高效的途径。亚马逊雨林的萨满堪称全世界使用植物医药的大师。其中最核心的活性成分是二甲基色胺（DMT）。在常规方式下，如果以雾化或吸入形式摄入 DMT，通常会引发一场为期约十分钟、直抵现实彼岸的超维度旅程；一旦进入那个境地，人们几乎没有任何自主操控的余地，随后药效便会消退。 然而，古印第安人发明的“死藤水”（Ayahuasca）展现出了令人匪夷所思的化学合成智慧。人体肠道内含有一种单胺氧化酶，如果单喝富含 DMT 的草药茶，DMT 会被酶迅速分解而无法产生口服活性。但死藤水中的另一种植物——死藤藤蔓，恰恰含有一种能够精准阻断该酶的天然抑制剂（MAOI）。二者合一，使得 DMT 能够被人体口服吸收，从而产生长达数小时、伴随强烈身体反应与深层觉察的持久体验。汉考克还特别提到，伦敦帝国理工学院（Imperial College London）目前正在运用类似静脉麻醉的技术，通过持续微量输送 DMT，让人类测试者长久维持在巅峰意识状态，因为与许多其他致幻物质不同，人体对 DMT 并不会产生耐药性。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 传统死藤水与现代静脉DMT摄入机制对比 accDescr: 展示DMT在被肠道酶分解与结合MAO抑制剂口服吸收，以及帝国理工静脉持续给药的区别 subgraph OralMechanism["天然口服路径（死藤水组合）"] A["草本植物 DMT 成分"] --> B["人体肠道单胺氧化酶分解"] B --> C["口服无效，无法吸收"] D["死藤藤蔓成分 (MAOI)"] -->|阻断降解酶| B D -.->|使DMT口服生效| E["长达数小时的超凡意识体验"] end subgraph MedicalTech["现代临床科研路径"] F["帝国理工学院静脉滴注"] -->|麻醉给药技术| G["人体无耐药性累积"] G --> H["长时间维持巅峰感知状态"] end ``` ### [01:11:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4272s) 80次死藤水仪式带来的道德审判与自我救赎 谈及自身服用过约 80 次死藤水的经历，汉考克严肃强调，所有迷幻致幻类物质都是“极其庄重严肃的事物，绝不能被轻浮对待”。在深入体验死藤水时，受试者最常经历的是一种震撼灵魂的道德维度审视。在仪式中，你会被迫直面自己过往的一生，审视自己所作所为给他人带来的深重伤害。曾经在现实中被你轻描淡写合理化为“他们罪有应得”的尖酸言语，在致幻状态下，你会彻底站在对方的视角，以十倍百倍的清晰度亲身感受那份被撕裂的痛苦：“天哪，那真是我说出的话吗？真是我做过的事吗？那一刻你才会看清自己究竟是什么样的人。” 死藤水无法改变过去的愚蠢与伤害，但它能阻止你在未来重蹈覆辙。汉考克承认，自己生性脾气暴躁、极易动怒，正是死藤水的严厉教诲让他变得更为温和柔软。但这绝非一颗灵丹妙药或一夜之间的奇迹蜕变，喝下苦涩药汤所经历的剧烈呕吐与腹泻仅仅只是门槛：“在药力褪去之后，真正的工作才刚刚开始。你如何把那份洞见整合进现实人生，才是修行的起点，而非终点。” ### [01:13:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4388s) 印度童年创伤：五岁目击死刑犯解剖与家庭阴影 当话题转向这一切内心冲突是否源自童年经历与家庭关系时，汉考克难掩内心的遗憾与沉重。他坦言自己过去很不成熟，未曾站在父母的角度去理解他们的古怪与不易，甚至长年无法原谅童年时期家庭中弥漫的古怪氛围。直到自己成为父亲后，他才彻底明白母亲所承受的灭顶之灾：母亲一生共痛失了三个骨肉——汉考克其实是家里的独子，在他之前，母亲足月怀胎的第一个孩子死于死产；汉考克活了下来，但在他之后的两个弟弟妹妹都在一岁左右夭折。 汉考克回忆起自己在 1954 年随父母前往印度的旧照。他的父亲是一名外科顾问医生，怀揣狂热的宗教信仰，作为医疗传教士带着全家前往印度南部的韦洛尔基督教医学院（Christian Medical College, Vellore）。全家人住在简陋的铁皮棚屋里。父亲性格极度古怪，在汉考克四五岁时，印度当地仍执行绞刑，父亲竟然带着年幼的汉考克走进解剖室，让他亲眼目睹被绞死的囚犯尸体被逐一解剖切开。当年父亲将这一切视作理所当然，但这种在幼小年纪直面血腥解剖台的经历，连同家庭中挥之不去的阴郁、痛苦与绝望，给汉考克的内心留下了终生无法彻底愈合的精神创伤。 ### [01:15:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4557s) 孤独梦魇与注定作为“局外人”的宿命 主持人史蒂文指出，让四五岁的幼童直面尸体解剖是极其严重的隐性创伤，并分享了自己此前采访迈克尔·乔丹和科比·布莱恩特的私人训练师时的见闻——那位训练师幼年同样被迫观看父亲解剖尸体，导致成年后夜间惊醒时常能看到一具具死者尸体环绕床边。汉考克听后释怀地表示“感谢宇宙，我没有经历这种血腥画面的闪回”。他的梦魇从来不是血肉横飞的尸体，而是无边无际的孤独与被遗弃感：“在噩梦中，我常常发现自己突然孤身一人，陷入彻底的孤立、迷失与无助。” 这种刻骨铭心的遗弃感伴随了他一生。从在学校读书到成年后的社会处境，汉考克始终觉得自己是一个彻头彻尾的“局外人”（Outsider）。但走过大半生后，他坦然接受了这种宿命： - **身为局外人的代价**：承受长期的被误解、被学术主流排斥与深刻的孤独。 - **身为局外人的价值**：正是因为不属于任何既定体系，他才能够跳脱常规框架，坚定不移地为全人类提供审视远古历史的另类视角，履行自己来到这个世界所背负的使命。 ### [01:17:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4665s) 局外人的特权：寄宿学校的残酷与独立视角的萌芽 格雷厄姆·汉考克（Graham Hancock）坦承自己从来无法融入英国的传统学校体系，他形容自己在学校是一个“彻头彻尾的失败者”（total failure），对课堂上的那一套规则不仅无法产生任何共鸣，更完全无法理解这种体制存在的意义。更糟的是，那是一个充斥着残酷与恶意的环境。由于格雷厄姆的父亲当年在一所寄宿学校度过了相当愉快的时光，便顺理成章地将年幼的格雷厄姆送往英格兰北部达勒姆（Durham）的一所全寄宿学校。然而，对格雷厄姆而言，那里却是最残酷的炼狱。 在校期间体罚屡见不鲜，格雷厄姆曾多次被一位有施虐倾向的校长用藤条狠狠抽打光着的臀部。他不仅无法融入同龄群体，还承受着严苛暴力的折磨。然而，回顾这段过往，格雷厄姆强调自己从未将自己视为受害者。相反，他将成为一名“局外人”（outsider）视为一种莫大的特权与恩赐。正是因为从小站在主流边缘、无法被既定模具规训，他才获得了以完全不同的视角审视世界、质疑既有常识的独立思维能力。 ### [01:18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4710s) 未说出口的话与生命的坍缩：不要在等待中耗尽此生 当主持人斯蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及格雷厄姆是否对已故的父母留有未曾言说的遗憾时，格雷厄姆动情地承认确实有太多话来不及说。他想回到母亲面前告诉她：“我现在完全理解了你当年为什么那么执着于让我活下来，并不惜一切代价督促我做出一番事业”；他也想对父亲说：“你身上确实有疯狂的一面，但至少你启发了我，让我勇于成为一个特立独行的怪人（eccentric）。” 即将年满 76 岁的格雷厄姆感慨，衰老带来最强烈的体悟就是意识到生命是如此“高度坍缩”（collapsed）。在少年、青年乃至中年时期，人们往往产生一种自己长生不老的幻觉，总觉得时间无限漫长，未来有充裕的岁月去实现梦想。但格雷厄姆郑重告诫：时间绝不漫长，人生转瞬即逝。如果有真正想做的事，必须立刻着手，绝不能等待。 生命是宇宙赋予人类的一份极其珍贵的礼物，而回馈这份礼物的唯一方式，就是在自身所处的境遇中全力以赴地去过一种充实的生活，并做出有价值的贡献。他呼吁人们绝不能沦为听从指令的机械木偶，而必须学会独立思考。在漫长的宇宙演化中，经过数十亿年与个人意志无关的物理演进，两个人能在此刻坐在一起对话本身就是一个奇迹。格雷厄姆援引伏尔泰（Voltaire）谈论轮回时的话指出：“死后再投生一次，并不比初生于世更不可思议”（It's no more extraordinary to be born twice than to be born once）。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 生命觉醒与意识认知路径 accDescr: 展示从摆脱机械化生活到通过直接体验探索意识与客观现实的思维演进路径。 subgraph S1["生命的自觉"] A["拒绝充当受规训的机器人"] --> B["意识到时间的高度坍缩与短暂"] B --> C["即刻行动：践行独立思考"] end subgraph S2["灵性与意识的探索"] C --> D["摆脱建制宗教的中介灌输"] D --> E["借助致幻媒介（如死藤水/DMT）获得直接体验"] E --> F["打破物质主义偏见：探究基底现实与意识本质"] end ``` ### [01:20:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4830s) 拒绝中介的灵性探索：死藤水与感知维度的“显微镜” 谈及宗教信仰，格雷厄姆明确表示自己高度关注生命中非物质的、灵性的（spiritual）层面，但他绝不属于任何建制化的有组织宗教（organized religion）。他最反感建制宗教的一点在于，信徒与神圣力量或灵性世界的连接总是被“中介化”的——无论是神父、拉比还是穆拉，总有一套阶级在教导信徒该如何与神明沟通。格雷厄姆追求的是抛开中介的“直接体验”（direct experience）与内在探寻。 这正是死藤水（Ayahuasca）对他产生重大价值的原因。在日常生活中，人们受限于物理定律与世俗经济压力，感官全部被锚定在物质世界之中。然而，如果在适宜的环境、专业的指导和真诚的意图下使用高强度致幻剂（psychedelics），它们就能帮助人们摆脱日常自我的禁锢，连通平时根本无法触及的更广阔维度。 格雷厄姆用科学史上的显微镜作类比：在显微镜发明之前，人类根本不知道细菌的存在，但这并不意味着细菌此前不存在；显微镜让我们看清了原本就存在的微观世界。同样，萨满千百年来使用的致幻植物实质上是一种“意识感知技术”，它犹如一台心灵显微镜，帮人类突破日常生存意识的屏蔽，连接到其他层级的客观现实。 ### [01:22:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4960s) 现实的脆弱性：吸入一口 DMT 后的 4K 异世界 斯蒂芬·巴特利特深有共鸣地分享了自己的经历。在离开上一家创业公司后，他出于对心理健康与致幻剂前沿研究的好奇，曾全职在一家大型致幻剂研发企业工作了一年，同时他的伴侣也是一位深度的灵性探索者。斯蒂芬对伊博格碱（Ibogaine）、死藤水以及 DMT（二甲基色胺）有远超常人的了解。他指出，致幻体验最震撼的地方在于不同个体之间体验的惊人相似性。 格雷厄姆此前描述的那些对受试者说“你现在属于我们了”的超自然实体，几乎一字不差地出现在斯蒂芬朋友两周前的 DMT 体验中： - 他的朋友吸入 DMT 后，瞬间被传送到一个宛如超高清“4K”画质的异维度空间。 - 空间内存在着解剖结构介于昆虫、动物与人类之间的奇异实体（如类似螳螂/蚱蜢的人形生物）。 - 这些实体将他牢牢抓住，带着极强的好奇心对他进行仔细审视，随后又在药效消退时将他送回。 斯蒂芬由此得出了一个令人警醒的逻辑推论：如果仅仅吸入一口微量化学物质，就能彻底抹去眼前的世界并将人传送到充满异界生灵的 4K 空间，这就证明人类所谓的“基底现实”（base reality）其实极其脆弱——我们自以为确凿无疑的当下感知，与遭遇“蚱蜢人”之间的距离，居然仅仅隔着一口分子的摄入量。 ### [01:24:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5083s) 意识探索先于太空殖民：走出物质主义的偏见 格雷厄姆对斯蒂芬的见解表示强烈赞同，认为这种认知会彻底动摇人们对现实本质的固执定义。致幻药物在心理治疗上的临床疗效固然非凡，但更深远的意义在于对“现实的本质”以及“意识是什么”的哲学与科学探索。 当前，伦敦帝国理工学院（Imperial College London）、加州大学圣地亚哥分校（UCSD）以及哥斯达黎加的多所科研机构正开展严谨的试验。面对那些互不相识、从未串通的受试者从 DMT 状态归来后汇报出高度一致的实体接触与异界景观，主流学界长期以来的默认态度却是傲慢地斥之为“毫无意义的幻觉与垃圾”。格雷厄姆批评道，科学探索绝不能被预设的唯物主义（materialism）教条所绑架——主流理论武断地将一切还原为物质，甚至将意识贬低为大脑物理神经元的分泌物，但事实上科学至今对意识的本质一无所知。 微量注射 DMT 即可让人进入完全不同的客观现实，这一谜题的探索价值绝不亚于外太空探索。格雷厄姆强调，人类作为一个物种在心智上甚至尚未成熟，内部充斥着贪婪与毒性。在尚未通过内在探索战胜自身的狭隘、真正走向心智成熟之前，人类根本没有资格走向外太空，更不应该将自身的毒性输出到宇宙的其他角落。 - **开展 DMT 及致幻剂尖端研究的核心机构**： - 英国伦敦帝国理工学院（Imperial College London） - 美国加州大学圣地亚哥分校（UC San Diego） - 哥斯达黎加相关临床试验中心 - **意识探索的核心命题**： - 打破“意识仅是大脑物理副产品”的还原论偏见。 - 探究跨个体高度一致的致幻实体接触现象（Inter-subjective entity encounters）。 - 主张“向内探索”（Inner exploration）应优先于盲目的外太空殖民扩张。 ### [01:26:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5207s) 审视内心先于星际探索，致幻剂的反思与医疗潜力 葛瑞姆·汉卡克（Graham Hancock）指出，人类探索自我存在多种途径，在结构严谨、谨慎且负责任的前提下使用致幻剂便是其中一种。他强调，在人类将目光投向火星、月球甚至更遥远的宇宙深处之前，首要任务应当是“先认清自己是谁”。人类在地球上自身的问题都尚未厘清，却妄图逃离地球、把这里搞得一团糟后搬去别处生活，这种幻想必须停止。人类拥有巨大的潜能，然而当前甚至连百分之一的潜能都未曾开发出来。 当主持人史蒂芬·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）问及人类到底该如何实现这种转变、是否需要某位领袖带领时，汉卡克直言人类必须“超越对领袖的依赖”，尽管他也承认很难想象具体的变革路径，但这更可能是一个人接一个人、通过口碑与切身体验缓慢扩散的过程。与此同时，汉卡克警惕地指出死藤水（Ayahuasca）领域绝非尽善尽美：许多毒贩和投机者正在滥用这种药物，极不负责任地组织百人以上的大型仪式，这种行为极其愚蠢。死藤水是一种高度私密的体验，必须在极小规模的群体中进行。虽然致幻剂存在严重风险与副作用，需要严谨调查，但它们在医疗领域的突破——例如赛洛西宾（Psilocybin，大笑蕈素/裸盖菇素）对长期抑郁症和创伤后应激障碍（PTSD）的治疗效果——正在为伦敦帝国理工学院（Imperial College London）等机构打开大门，促使人们深入探索意识的本质以及对现实的重新定义。 - 探索原则：解决地球本身的问题并向内探索认知，优先级应远高于星际殖民与外太空探索。 - 死藤水滥象：谴责商业化毒贩组织上百人的大型仪式，强调该体验必须在高度专注、负责的小群体中展开。 - 临床医学突破：赛洛西宾针对长期抑郁症与 PTSD 的显著疗效，正推动主流科研机构重新审视意识机制。 ### [01:29:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5366s) 赞助商播客插播：Shopify 平台支持 节目在此处插播了赞助商 Shopify 的广告。史蒂芬提到，创业者在起步阶段最核心的决策之一是选择在何处搭建业务。团队在运营对话卡牌和日记产品时一直依赖 Shopify，因为其不仅能让创业者拥有完全属于自己的独立店铺和沉淀下来的第一手客户数据，还无需担心第三方平台突然更改规则。平台自带集成的支付、物流和门面功能，且商品能够自动分发至 Google、TikTok、YouTube 和 ChatGPT 等前沿流量入口，极大降低了早期创业的基建摩擦成本。 ### [01:30:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5427s) 古埃及的心脏称量审判与生命的真正意义 回归正题后，史蒂芬询问汉卡克在研究古代文明的过程中对“意识”究竟有何认知。汉卡克阐述了古埃及丧葬文献（如《亡灵书》）中极其著名的“审判场景”（Judgment Scene）。死者被真理、正义与宇宙和谐女神玛阿特（Ma'at）引入大厅，冥王奥西里斯（Osiris）高坐王座之上，大厅中央放置着一架巨大的天平。 天平的一侧放置着代表死者心脏（在古埃及语境中心脏即灵魂）的容器，另一侧则是玛阿特的真实之羽。死者的心脏绝不能比羽毛更沉重，至少必须维持平衡。此时，大厅墙壁上的“42位负罪审判官”（42 Negative Assessors）会逐一进行质问——死者是否偷盗、杀戮或作恶（这些质问涵盖了后来十诫的所有要点甚至更多）。古埃及人深知人性的脆弱与犯错的必然，关键在于犯错后是吸取教训还是重蹈覆辙。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 古埃及心脏审判流程图 accDescr: 展示死者进入审判大厅后，心脏与真理之羽在天平上称量，并面对42位负罪审判官提问的衡量过程。 subgraph Hall["审判大厅 (The Judgment Hall)"] direction TB A["死者由真理女神玛阿特引介进入"] --> B["核心考验：天平称量"] B --> C["一端：死者之心（灵魂）"] B --> D["另一端：玛阿特真理之羽"] C & D --> E{"天平是否平衡？"} E -->|心脏过重| F["未能通过审判（灵魂毁灭）"] E -->|达成平衡| G["面对42位负罪审判官的质询"] G --> H["反省今生如何运用人类身体与智慧"] end ``` 汉卡克将这套古老神话解读为生命的终极拷问：人类被赋予了无与伦比的肉身、庞大的大脑和独一无二的体验机会，造物赋予你这幅躯壳，你究竟拿它做了什么？是善加利用，还是虚度挥霍？面对自己人生的晚期，汉卡克坦言自己正审视过往，竭力弥补曾经犯下的过错，并确保未来不再重犯，努力成为身边人眼中具有滋养力、正面且有用的人。 - 玛阿特女神特征：头戴羽毛，掌管真理、正义与宇宙秩序。 - 审判天平：天平一端为死者心脏（灵魂），另一端为玛阿特之羽，心脏不得沉于羽毛。 - 42位审判官：对应死者生前行为的负罪坦白，涉及道德戒律与过失修正。 ### [01:33:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5595s) 面对疾病的清醒与无悔人生 谈及近期的健康危机与即将面临的心脏手术，汉卡克坦言这场大病让他变得比十年前更加内省。他幽默地调侃道：“十年前的我还觉得自己是不朽的呢。” 但他随即严肃指出，这颗星球上的每一个人都可能在下一分钟突然离世，生命本就如此脆弱和猝不及防。严重疾病的最大作用在于“让心智高度聚焦”，促使他强烈渴望在离开人世时能够尽可能少留遗憾。他希望回首往事时，能确信自己在他人生活中扮演过积极有益的角色，甚至为人类这个物种的整体演进贡献过微薄的正面力量。 ### [01:34:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5649s) 携手三十余载的伴侣：桑莎与重组家庭的奇迹 当史蒂芬问汉卡克现在是否感到幸福时，汉卡克毫不犹豫地回答：“我非常幸福。”他感叹自己能走遍全球、经历种种不可思议的冒险实属被命运眷顾，而最大的恩赐则是他的妻子兼伙伴——桑莎（Santha Faiia）。两人在四十岁左右相遇，在随后三十多年的漫长岁月里，彼此分开的时间总共不超过四天。 两人在事业与生活上高度互补：汉卡克擅长文字却缺乏敏锐的视觉捕捉力，而桑莎则是一位才华横溢的摄影师，负责用镜头定格所有画面。他们一同潜水探险，桑莎甚至曾两次在凶险的强洋流中与死神擦肩而过，展现出非凡的勇敢与冒险精神。更令汉卡克动容的是桑莎维系家庭的能力：两人此前各有婚姻破裂的历史，桑莎带来两个孩子，汉卡克则从前两段婚姻中各带来两个孩子。六个来自三个破裂家庭的孩子原本极易演变成家庭灾难，但桑莎凭借纯粹的爱与温柔，将他们凝聚成一个彼此深爱、终身相互扶持的亲密手足集体。如今，这个大家庭已经繁衍出九个孙辈（亦提六个小孙辈），汉卡克将这一切幸福完全归功于桑莎的伟大。 - 陪伴时间：汉卡克与妻子桑莎相识于40岁左右，相守30余年，分开时间累计不足4天。 - 创作分工：汉卡克负责文字撰写与学术调查，桑莎负责专业摄影与视觉记录。 - 探险经历：两人共同进行大量水下深潜考察，桑莎曾两次在强烈洋流中险些丧生。 - 家庭重组：成功将来自三次破裂婚姻的6名子女融合成亲密无间的兄弟姐妹，如今儿孙满堂。 ### [01:35:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5758s) 爱的本质与无端指控带来的创痛 在谈及浪漫与深层的情感连接时，史蒂文感慨人太容易被物欲和外界毒素裹挟，而遗忘了最纯粹的幸福其实就来自爱上一个人。格雷厄姆·汉考克对此深表共鸣，甚至在讲述时一度哽咽动容。他动情地表示：“爱就是一切，爱就是给予——将自己毫无保留地给予另一个人，将对方放在第一位。”他坦言自己的妻子桑莎（Santha）始终在践行这种无私，时刻将身边的人置于自己之前，让周围所有人都深受其益。汉考克坦白，如果当年没有在关键节点遇到桑莎并组建共同的生活，他的人生恐怕早已彻底堕入深渊（"gone down the tubes"），正是她充满爱意的引导之手挽救了他。 尽管整体上对自己充满探索与关爱的人生感到幸运和富足，汉考克也剖白了内心深处难以愈合的刺痛。他不理解为何学术界和批评者非要将他描绘成一个江湖骗子或诈骗犯（fraud or grifter），而最令他无法释怀、彻底不能原谅的，是指控他抱有“种族主义”。批评者指责他提出“失落文明曾启发其他古代文明”的假说，是在蓄意剥夺原住民的文明成就与真实性。汉考克指出，这种泼脏水式的攻击毫无真凭实据，尤其对于他这样一个拥有多元族裔背景的家庭（multi-ethnic family）而言，此类恶意中伤极其恶毒且不可饶恕。在当今许多人不再潜心阅读原著、仅凭网络断章取义便全盘接收的舆论环境下，这种轻率的污名化给他带来了极大的痛苦。 * **爱的真谛**：真正的爱是将他人放在首位的自我给予与托举；汉考克直言没有妻子桑莎的爱与指引，自己的人生将一事无成。 * **无法原谅的指控**：外界因其理论而扣上的“种族主义”帽子，汉考克明确表示这是所有攻击中极少数他“绝不原谅（unforgivable）”的原则性底线。 --- ### [01:38:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5919s) 科学范式的领地防御与保持开放心态 史蒂文指出，汉考克作品最持久的生命力不在于其每个推论是否被证实为百分之百的真理，而在于他唤醒了大众的好奇心，打破了狭隘生活带来的窒息感，让人们愿意去拥抱未知的可能性。史蒂文展示了科学认知演变的趋势图，指出人类的共识即使在2017年之后都在剧烈被改写，认为当下一无所遗是极其傲慢的。汉考克完全赞同，并特别强调在考古学中，“每一次铁锹的翻动，都可能彻底颠覆以往的整个历史叙事（every turn of the spade in an archaeological dig can change the whole story）”。 然而现实中，学术研究往往陷入僵化的领地争夺。汉考克指出，这种弊病绝不仅限于考古学，几乎存在于所有充斥着专家的专业领域。学者们往往被锁死在特定的认知参考系中，像守卫领土一样对抗任何外部挑战。一旦固有范式受到冲击，学术讨论便演变成一场你死我活的防御战，体制内的守门人甚至不惜采取各种下三滥的手段来消灭异见者。正是这种封闭与敌意，加剧了对独立探索者的无理打压。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 学术范式僵化与防御机制 accDescr: 展示学术专家如何从建立固定认知框架走向极端领地防御并排斥外部探索 subgraph 认知固化 A["特定学术参考系与既定假说"] --> B["建立权威解释与专业壁垒"] end subgraph 领地防御 B --> C["将学术边界视作领地防线"] C --> D["对新发现/外部假说视作敌对侵犯"] end subgraph 打压异见 D --> E["采取非学术手段与污名化攻击"] D -.-> F["拒绝因新挖掘发现而重构叙事"] end ``` --- ### [01:40:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6015s) 悬崖边缘的人类：失落文明的警钟与核浩劫威胁 史蒂文将话题引向当下——面对人工智能的爆发、人形机器人的兴起以及核武器的威胁，人类是否正处于名副其实的“生存危机”时刻。汉考克对此深以为然，他严肃地警告，人类物种当下正危立在悬崖边缘（"poised on the edge of an abyss"）。问题的核心在于：人类的技术发展速度已经远远超越了心智的成熟度（technology has outgrown our mentality），在缺乏足够精神觉醒的情况下掌握毁天灭地的力量，使我们根本无力承受未来的风浪。出生于1950年的汉考克提到，自己成长的年代距离二战结束仅五年，二战单是苏联就失去了约2000万人，那场惨绝人寰的浩劫阴影笼罩了整整一代人；然而今天的大众似乎已经忘却了全球总体战的恐惧，而疯狂的政客正在推高核冲突的概率。 汉考克认为，古代失落文明留下的核心讯息在于揭示了“人类曾犯下致命错误并招致灭顶之灾”。人类当下最迫切需要的是对现实本质与意识的重新认知，必须理解全人类在本质上是一体的（"we are all one"）——撒哈拉以南非洲的一位母亲与纽约市的一位母亲，对自己孩子的爱与希望完全毫无二致。虽然多元差异造就了人类的创造力，但人为制造的“分裂性差异（divisive differences）”将彻底毁掉文明。除了地球每年6月和10月至11月两次穿过的金牛座流星雨流星群（Taurid meteor stream）所蕴含的真实彗星撞击危险之外，汉考克认为人类更有可能通过自相残杀的核浩劫，亲手将自身文明打回石器时代。 --- ### [01:44:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6260s) 领袖觉醒之道与独立思考的力量 为了避免走向文明的自毁，汉考克重申了意识觉醒的紧迫性。他指出，人类必须意识到作为生命所拥有的特权与天赋，并且明白这一天赋属于地球上的每一个人，而非少数特权群体。在探讨如何打破当下的傲慢与冷酷时，汉考克再次提及了致幻植物（如死藤水，Ayahuasca）的潜在解毒作用。他提出了一个广为人知的建议：如果自己有权力决定规则，他会强制要求全球任何政治领袖在申请或竞选公职之前，必须先完成至少12场死藤水仪式。他幽默而辛辣地解释道，在经历深度的自我剖析与意识洗礼后，绝大多数利欲熏心的野心家恐怕根本不会再去参选，而真正留下来的少数人则会因为深度理解了自己与万物的连接，从而成为更合格的引领者。 在被问及关于人类过往历史中最核心、最不容忽视的启示究竟是什么时，汉考克毫不犹豫地归结为一个词——“独立探索与思考（independent inquiry）”。面对被既定权威垄断的过去与危机四伏的未来，盲从灌输的叙事只会让人类重蹈覆辙，唯有每个人重新学会为自己思考，才能真正打破愚昧的枷锁。 ### [01:45:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6316s) 质疑一切的勇气与媒体抹黑 格雷厄姆·汉考克（Graham Hancock）谈到，他从年轻一代那里收到的最宝贵的积极反馈，莫过于“感谢你树立了一个敢于质疑一切的榜样”。虽然他毕生质疑的切入点是人类遗失的远古历史，但他认为这种思维模式完全适用于审视世界的方方面面。汉考克尖锐地指出，主流媒体之所以动用极其拙劣的新闻报道手段来抹黑他的名声，恰恰是因为他不仅提出了犀利、有力的质疑，而且最致命的是——他触达了极其庞大的公众受众。在媒体的逻辑里，如果一个人没有足够大的影响力，主流甚至懒得费力去攻击他。 史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）对此感同身受。他分享道，平台越大、关注和非议越多，反而像一面镜子，逼着一个人向内聚焦，彻底弄清楚“我是谁”、“我的底线在哪里”以及“我究竟信仰什么”。这种经历虽然严酷，却让人变得前所未有的清晰。但史蒂文也指出，在长期面对外界误解和不公评价时，最关键也最危险的挑战在于：如何守护内心，不让自己滑向苦毒与怨恨。汉考克对此深表认同，并坦言克服怨恨正是他当前对自己进行的重要心理修养。他内心毫无动摇，坚信自己一生都在做正确的事——既未伤害任何人，又向世界抛出了值得深思的深刻观念。 - **媒体攻击的核心诱因**：汉考克指出，主流机构的恶意抹黑并非因为观点本身有多危险，而是因为这些尖锐问题借助大型平台传播给了海量受众。 - **面对误解的心态修炼**：两位对谈者都强调，长期置身舆论风口浪尖极易滋生愤世嫉俗，必须主动化解苦毒，将外界审视转化为明晰自身价值观与原则的契机。 --- ### [01:47:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6432s) 生命终点的牵挂与偶然开启的使命 当史蒂文问及“在生命的最后一天，你最在乎什么”时，汉考克毫不犹豫地回答是“家人的爱”，这是他生命中至高无上的依托。其次，则是内心能平静地感知到自己已经竭尽所能。汉考克感慨，自己踏入远古文明这个“兔子洞”纯属机缘巧合——他在20世纪80年代本是一名报道时政要闻的严肃记者，完全未曾预料到后半生会与史前谜团紧紧捆绑在一起。正是命运中一系列不可预知的偶发事件将他推上了这条道路，而一旦深涉其中，他便对此倾注了终身坚守的使命感。 史蒂文随后分享了自己采访前从不预设立场的处事哲学。他提到长寿科技先锋布莱恩·约翰逊（Bryan Johnson）做客播客时的经历：团队成员曾提前询问史蒂文对约翰逊那些激进的“永生”观点的看法，史蒂文回答“我还没见过他，我怎么知道”。采访结束后，约翰逊十分感激地表示，这是他人生中第一次遇到完全没有带着预设偏见去审视他的采访者，这让他能够彻底放松做自己。史蒂文借此向汉考克表达敬意，称汉考克的研究极大地拓宽了人类的想象边界，让人意识到无论现代人还是远古祖先，在意识与血脉上本质是一体的。祖先绝非仅仅是在树上爬行的粗陋灵长类，对古人类智慧的重新认识，赋予了当代人一种深沉的责任感——去守护好这颗星球，留给两万年后面临地质记录的子孙后代。 - **记者的蜕变**：汉考克在1980年代原本从事时政新闻报道，因一系列偶然事件才转向史前文明调查，并最终将其升华为终身志业。 - **对话的空白画布原则**：史蒂文以布莱恩·约翰逊为例，主张摒除先入为主的道德与认知偏见，用纯粹的好奇心与人建立深层共鸣。 - **超越时代的责任感**：对古文明的敬畏不仅重塑了人类对自身起源的看法，更唤醒了对两万年后未来人类的生态与文明责任。 --- ### [01:49:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6573s) 传播者的责任与“机械神”的隐忧 史蒂文与汉考克探讨了现代媒体环境的巨大力量。汉考克指出，如今这种高度互联、瞬间触达的传播世界在20世纪90年代初是完全不可想象的。拥有麦克风与平台的人肩负着不可推卸的道义责任：这种影响力既能唤醒人性中一切良善、崇高的特质，也可能助长网络世界中充斥的阴暗、残酷与恶毒。 随后，史蒂文引出了节目经典的“前任嘉宾盲盒提问”环节。上一位嘉宾为汉考克留下的问题是：“我们是否存在步入盲目崇拜‘机械神’（Machine God）的梦游风险？”汉考克的回答斩截而警醒：“我们早已在崇拜机械神了。”他直言，在许多当代人的心智中，科学早已被推上神坛，彻底僭越并占据了原本属于宗教的狂热生态位。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 科学工具论与科学崇拜的认知对比 accDescr: 对比科学作为探索工具与被异化为宗教式盲从崇拜的两种不同路径。 subgraph TrueScience["健康的科学精神（工具论）"] A["科学定位：人类多元认知工具之一"] --> B["核心准则：质疑、挑战与反复调查"] B --> C["保持独立思辨与内在感知"] end subgraph Scientism["异化的科学主义（机械神崇拜）"] D["科学定位：填补传统宗教神龛"] --> E["盲从口号：'相信科学'（Trust the science）"] E --> F["构建多维机械网络控制人类意识"] end ``` 汉考克慷慨陈词，严厉抨击了当下流行的口号“相信科学”（Trust the science）。他认为这恰恰是对真正科学精神的背叛与侮辱：科学的根本伦理绝不是让人不假思索地盲从，而是去“调查科学、质疑科学、挑战科学”。将科学视为唯一的真理途径，无异于亲手打造一台渗透并支配人类全维度意识的超级机械神。他打比方说，哪怕是性命攸关时面对一位医生，理性的态度也不是盲信其头衔，而是要去深究其专业与判断。人类被赋予如此复杂的大脑和认知联结能力，其终极目的就是为了提问与探索；任何要求公众“放弃质疑”的声音，都是在对人类潜能造成巨大的摧残。 - **前任嘉宾盲盒提问**：“我们是否存在步入盲目崇拜‘机械神’的危险？”汉考克回答：这种崇拜已成现实，科学被异化成了不可置喙的新宗教。 - **科学的本质反思**：汉考克呼吁将科学拉回其原本的位置——它是一件极其有用、能造福人类但也能带来灾难的工具，绝非供人膜拜的神祇。 - **DOAC 精神内核**：史蒂文阐释播客缩写 DOAC 的内在寓意不仅代表 *The Diary Of A CEO*，也象征着梦想家与开放心态（Dreamers & Open-mindedness）、拓展认知觉察（Awareness）以及在精神层面深化连接（Connected）。 - **代表作溯源**：在节目的尾声，汉考克提到了彻底让他闻名于世、引发现象级讨论的里程碑著作《上帝的指纹》（*Fingerprints of the Gods*）。 ### [01:53:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6822s) 著作脉络：从失落约柜到水下废墟与萨满幻象 在演播室中，格雷厄姆·汉考克（Graham Hancock）逐一回顾了自己的核心代表作与漫长的探索历程。他真正开始系统性调查史前失落文明可能性的起点是《上帝的指纹》（*Fingerprints of the Gods*），而在此之前，则是《符号与印章》（*The Sign and the Seal*）。20世纪80年代，汉考克作为一名常驻埃塞俄比亚的记者，接触到了埃塞俄比亚拥有失落的“约柜”（Ark of the Covenant）这一在当地宗教生活中至关重要的古老传统。追寻约柜下落的调查过程，意外地将他引向了史前失落文明的线索，并促成了《上帝的指纹》的面世。在此之后，他与罗伯特·鲍威尔（Robert Bauval）合著了《创世纪的守护者》（*Keeper of Genesis*），紧接着推出了探索水下考古的《地下世界》（*Underworld*）。 为了完成《地下世界》，汉考克与妻子桑莎（Santha）在世界各地进行了长达七年的水肺潜水考察。他们根据当地渔民和潜水员的线索——例如在海岸线附近水深30米处发现疑似人工建筑的痕迹——实地探勘并屡获惊人发现。汉考克强调，在末次冰期结束时，全球有多达2,700万平方公里的大陆架被海水彻底淹没，这一广阔面积相当于欧洲加上中国再多一点的总和。在两万年前，这片区域曾是地球上最适宜人类居住、生态最优越的黄金地带，如今却完全沉于波涛之下。汉考克指出，他们在水下确实发现了极为庞大的人造巨石结构，足以证明远古文明曾在此繁衍生息。 随后撰写的《超自然》（*Supernatural*，在美版中再版更名为《远见者》*Visionary*），则标志着他转向对意识起源与萨满体验的深入探索。汉考克深入研究了死藤水（ayahuasca）与裸盖菇素（psilocybin）等萨满植物药，并提出了一个极具颠覆性的核心观点：散布在世界各地的远古彩绘洞穴艺术，本质上正是“幻象的艺术”。早期的萨满在进入深层的意识改变状态后，将记忆中的超验体验带回日常意识，并绘制在洞穴岩壁上。这一理论不仅完美解释了为何全球各地的远古洞穴壁画风格与母题惊人一致，也解释了为何这些万年前的古老图案与当今亚马逊死藤水萨满所目睹的幻象如此相似。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 格雷厄姆·汉考克的学术探索与著作演进 accDescr: 展示格雷厄姆·汉考克从埃塞俄比亚记者调查到史前文明、水下考古及意识萨满研究的著作脉络 subgraph Phase1["起源与早期调查"] A["《符号与印章》<br/>调查埃塞俄比亚约柜传说"] --> B["《上帝的指纹》<br/>正式提出史前失落文明假说"] B --> C["《创世纪的守护者》<br/>与 Robert Bauval 合著探讨埃及巨石建筑"] end subgraph Phase2["水下考察与大陆架假说"] C --> D["《地下世界》<br/>历时7年全球水肺潜水探勘"] D1["2,700万平方公里被淹大陆架<br/>（相当于欧洲与中国面积总和）"] -.-> D end subgraph Phase3["意识起源与萨满幻象"] D --> E["《超自然》（美版《远见者》）<br/>探讨死藤水与远古洞穴艺术之谜"] end ``` - **关键地理与水下数据**：末次冰期结束导致全球海平面剧烈上升，淹没了2,700万平方公里的大陆架，该面积等同于欧洲与中国陆地面积的总和。 - **水下考古发现**：汉考克与桑莎依据渔民在近海30米水深处发现人工遗迹的线报，潜入水底证实了多处大型水下建筑结构的存在。 - **洞穴艺术的萨满假说**：全球史前洞穴壁画高度一致的视觉图腾，源自古代萨满进入改变状态后所见、并在清醒后重现的超自然幻象，这一视象至今仍与当代死藤水仪式中的幻象高度重合。 --- ### [01:55:56](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6956s) 探寻未知的好奇心：告别与祝福 对话步入尾声，主持人史蒂文·巴特利特（Steven Bartlett）向汉考克表达了由衷的敬意与感谢。史蒂文感慨道，汉考克的研究和分享彻底“打开了自己的思维格局”，并且这种震撼并非源于武断的结论，而是点燃了内心最本质的求知欲。史蒂文认为，一切深刻探究的起点都在于纯粹而深沉的好奇心，而汉考克在过去数十年间，不仅启发了他自己，更唤醒了全球数以亿计受众对人类未知历史的探索渴望。 面对汉考克数周后即将迎来的心脏手术，史蒂文深情致以祝福，期盼他的手术一切顺利，并期待在不久的将来能与他再次相聚，继续这场跨越万年的文明对话。汉考克亦诚挚致谢，表示非常享受当天的交流。节目最后，史蒂文按照惯例向观众介绍了平台依托人工智能（AI）与观看行为所定制的个性化算法推荐，引导观众继续观看下一期精彩内容。 - “你彻底打开了我的思维，激发了纯粹的求知欲。我认为，深沉的好奇心正是一切探索的起点，而这正是你多年来为我以及全世界数以亿计的观众所做的一切。” - “祝你的心脏手术一切顺利，希望我们很快能再次回到这里，继续这场未完的对话。” ## Notable quotes > [34:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2056s) 科学应当是人类认知军械库中的一件利器，而不应是唯一的武器。 — Graham Hancock > [39:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=2373s) 人们会说，光是建一个 600 万吨的遗迹就够累了，你还要它绝对对齐真北？这规格也太苛刻了。 — Graham Hancock > [58:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3533s) 它对我说：‘继续走下去’（Go further）。 — Graham Hancock > [01:02:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3764s) 整个人类史诗根本不是围绕着我们运转的。 — Graham Hancock > [01:03:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=3820s) 如果把数十万年的人类深厚经验比作一个健全完整的人体，那么所谓 150 年的现代科学，充其量只是‘长在人类鼻尖上的一颗小粉刺’。 — Graham Hancock > [01:18:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=4710s) 死后再投生一次，并不比初生于世更不可思议。 — Voltaire > [01:35:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5758s) 爱就是一切，爱就是给予——将自己毫无保留地给予另一个人，将对方放在第一位。 — Graham Hancock > [01:38:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=5919s) 每一次铁锹的翻动，都可能彻底颠覆以往的整个历史叙事。 — Graham Hancock > [01:49:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6573s) 我们早已在崇拜机械神了。 — Graham Hancock > [01:49:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo&t=6573s) 科学的根本伦理绝不是让人不假思索地盲从，而是去‘调查科学、质疑科学、挑战科学’。 — Graham Hancock ## Mentioned Graham Hancock, Steven Bartlett, Immanuel Velikovsky, Plato, Giorgio de Santillana, Alan West, John Harrison, Hipparchus of Alexandria, Caliph al-Mamoun, Filippo Biondi, Robert Bauval, Rupert Sheldrake, Martti Pärssinen, Alceu Ranzi, Voltaire, Santha Faiia, Bryan Johnson, Comet Encke, Younger Dryas impact hypothesis, Göbekli Tepe, Caral-Supe civilization, Orontius Finaeus Map, Great Pyramid of Giza, Imperial College London, University of California San Diego, Cometeer, Saily, Shopify, Mankind in Amnesia, Hamlet's Mill, Epic of Atrahasis, The Sign and the Seal, Fingerprints of the Gods, Keeper of Genesis, Underworld, Supernatural, Visionary: The Mysterious Origins of Human Consciousness, Ancient Apocalypse ## Video description What is ancient astronomy hiding about our true history? Graham Hancock reveals the catastrophe that erased 12,800 years of our past, what the Great Pyramid is actually trying to tell us, and what he refuses to leave unsaid with heart surgery just weeks away. Graham Hancock is a best selling writer and journalist who has spent 3 decades investigating evidence for a lost prehistoric civilisation. He is the author of international bestsellers including 'Fingerprints of the Gods', and is the presenter of the Netflix documentary series 'Ancient Apocalypse'. He explains: ◼ Why the Great Pyramid contains knowledge humans shouldn't have had for another 2,500 years ◼ The ancient maps that show a continent nobody should have known existed yet ◼ How the Amazon rainforest is actually a man-made landscape hiding what's buried beneath ◼ What 80 ayahuasca ceremonies taught him 00:00:00 Intro 00:02:38 Do Humans Have A Hidden Past? 00:06:38 Did A Global Cataclysm Reset Humanity? 00:11:29 Why Have This Conversation Now? 00:12:37 Why Is Your Work So Controversial? 00:14:55 How Old Is Humanity Really? 00:18:59 The Evidence Behind The Lost Comet Theory 00:20:16 What Truly Defines A Civilization? 00:23:19 Did Humans Survive The Ice Age? 00:24:38 What Were Early Humans Really Like? 00:28:24 The Missing Chapter In Human History 00:29:58 Could We Become The Next Lost Civilization? 00:35:13 How Do We Know These Stories Are True? 00:37:57 The Unsolved Mystery Of The Great Pyramid 00:42:20 The Real Meaning Of The Age Of Aquarius 00:47:25 Did The Ancients Know The Size Of Earth? 00:50:05 Were Ancient Secrets Passed Down Through Time? 00:52:20 Where Did Humanity's Lost Knowledge Go? 00:54:26 Do The Pyramids Point To A Lost Civilization? 00:55:41 Is Something Hidden Beneath The Great Pyramid? 00:57:38 Why Mainstream Science Pushes Back 00:58:59 Alone Inside The Great Pyramid 01:00:42 Ads 01:02:44 What A Lost Civilization Means Today 01:03:40 Should We Rethink Astrology And Telepathy? 01:05:46 New Discoveries Beneath The Amazon 01:09:09 What Shamanism Gets Right 01:09:56 A Journey With Ayahuasca 01:13:04 Strange Experiences From Childhood 01:15:57 Did You Have Nightmares? 01:17:13 Why Being An Outsider Matters 01:18:29 Don't Let Life Pass You By 01:20:30 Are Religion And Spirituality The Same? 01:22:38 Why Do People Experience The Same Psychedelic Visions? 01:25:40 Why Humanity Must Look Inward First 01:29:25 Ads 01:30:26 What Consciousness Really Is 01:33:15 How Illness Changed My Perspective 01:34:09 Why Love Matters Most 01:40:14 What Ancient Civilizations Teach Us Today 01:44:53 The Power Of Independent Thinking 01:47:12 What Will Matter On Your Last Day? 01:47:52 Living Without Judging Others 01:50:14 Will We One Day Worship AI? Follow Graham: Website - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/CDCJTRS Facebook - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/9n9OEkv X - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/7xRxeaW YouTube - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/8UehPfG Instagram - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/DDp55T2 You can purchase Graham’s book, ‘Visionary: The Mysterious Origins of Human Consciousness’, here: https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/3m3QlBS The Diary Of A CEO: ◼ Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ◼ Buy The Diary Of A CEO book here - https://smarturl.it/DOACbook ◼ The 1% Diary is back - limited time only: https://bit.ly/3YFbJbt ◼ The Diary Of A CEO Conversation Cards: https://linkly.link/2hm7r ◼ Get email updates - https://bit.ly/diary-of-a-ceo-yt ◼ Follow Steven - https://g2ul0.app.link/gnGqL4IsKKb Sponsors: Cometeer - https://cometeer.com/doac use code DOAC for $20 off Saily - Download from the app store and use code DOAC at the checkout for 15% off Shopify - https://shopify.com/bartlett [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Xs94KBeIiAo)

[34:16] Graham Hancock: 科学应当是人类认知军械库中的一件利器，而不应是唯一的武器。 [39:33] Graham Hancock: 人们会说，光是建一个 600 万吨的遗迹就够累了，你还要它绝对对齐真北？这规格也太苛刻了。 [58:53] Graham Hancock: 它对我说：‘继续走下去’（Go further）。 [62:44] Graham Hancock: 整个人类史诗根本不是围绕着我们运转的。 [63:40] Graham Hancock: 如果把数十万年的人类深厚经验比作一个健全完整的人体，那么所谓 150 年的现代科学，充其量只是‘长在人类鼻尖上的一颗小粉刺’。 [78:30] Voltaire: 死后再投生一次，并不比初生于世更不可思议。 [95:58] Graham Hancock: 爱就是一切，爱就是给予——将自己毫无保留地给予另一个人，将对方放在第一位。 [98:39] Graham Hancock: 每一次铁锹的翻动，都可能彻底颠覆以往的整个历史叙事。 [109:33] Graham Hancock: 我们早已在崇拜机械神了。 [109:33] Graham Hancock: 科学的根本伦理绝不是让人不假思索地盲从，而是去‘调查科学、质疑科学、挑战科学’。

[28:24] Graham Hancock: I envisage a situation 10 or 15,000 years from now, when we will be a myth... The archaeologists of that time will say, 'Complete fantasy, just made up, never happened.' But it did. We're that lost civilization. [62:44] Graham Hancock: We're so filled with arrogance and pride right now with our technological achievements... The Greeks used to call that hubris. It ultimately ends in nemesis. It ultimately brings you down. [77:13] Voltaire: It's no more extraordinary to be born twice than to be born once. [82:40] DMT entities: You belong to us now. [93:15] Graham Hancock: I was still immortal 10 years ago... Life is that fragile. It's that sudden. [104:53] Graham Hancock: To the extent that I do get positive feedback from young people, and I do a lot, that feedback is 'thank you for being an example to question everything.' It happens that what I'm questioning is the past, but that can be a model for questioning everything. [107:52] Graham Hancock: We're already worshipping a machine god. As I said earlier in our discussion, in the minds of many, science has already been elevated to occupy the space that was once occupied by religions. That is a belief in a machine fundamentally that's taking place there. Science should be seen as a tool, one amongst many tools that we as human beings use... [110:55] Graham Hancock: Don't just routinely, without thought, without question, trust the science... That's betraying science as well. [110:55] Graham Hancock: One of the fundamental ethics of science is not to trust the science. It's to question and challenge the science.

[0:00] This could be the last time I speak [0:03] about myself, my work, because there's a [0:05] chance that I might not make it off the [0:07] operating table this month. And a [0:09] journalist who has very bad blood [0:11] towards me has been trying to publish a [0:14] story on me for more than 2 years now, [0:16] and it will come out in the next [music] [0:17] month or two, and I didn't want that to [0:19] be the last word on my life. [0:21] >> What do you want the last word of your [0:22] life to be? [0:23] >> I'm here to communicate about the [0:25] possibility of a major forgotten episode [0:27] in human story. I'm talking about a lost [0:30] civilization. [0:32] >> So, most people think civilization [0:33] started 6,000 years ago? [0:35] >> Yes. [0:35] >> But you believe there's strong evidence [0:37] that there could have been a previous [0:38] civilization? [0:39] >> 20,000 [music] years ago, and I'm going [0:41] to present the evidence for that here, [0:42] Stephen. And it suggests a golden age [0:45] where there was no violence, no [music] [0:46] cruelty, where great healers and sages [0:48] were at work. They're extremely [0:50] sophisticated. [music] However, if you [0:52] follow the myths further, as I've done, [0:54] you find something odd happens. You find [0:56] that they stepped away from the original [0:57] purity and become a culture that begins [0:59] to impose its power on others around the [1:01] world. And then, sewn into those myths [1:04] is scientific information which record a [1:06] gigantic cataclysm all but wiping out [1:09] the human race. [1:10] >> If what you're saying is true, what does [1:12] that mean for our lives? I guess also [1:14] our future. [1:14] >> Well, there's always this feeling in the [1:16] myths that we brought [music] this upon [1:18] ourselves. And when I look at our [1:19] civilization today, I see a civilization [1:21] [music] that ticks all the mythological [1:23] boxes for the next lost civilization, [1:25] and that we are most likely to be the [1:27] cause of that cataclysm ourselves, [1:29] unless we wake up. [1:32] >> Graham Hancock, what will you care about [1:35] on your last day? [1:38] >> Most of all, [1:44] >> This is super interesting to me. My team [1:46] gave me this report to show me how many [1:47] of you that watch this show subscribe, [1:49] and some of you have told us, according [1:50] to this, that you are unsubscribed from [1:52] the channel randomly. So, a favor to ask [1:54] all of you, please could you check right [1:56] now if you've hit the subscribe button. [1:57] if you are regular viewer of the show [1:59] and you like what we do here. We're [2:00] approaching quite a significant landmark [2:02] on this show in terms of a subscriber [2:03] number. So, if there was one simple, [2:05] free thing that you could do to help us, [2:07] my team, everyone here, to keep this [2:09] show free, to keep it improving year [2:11] over year and week over week, it is just [2:13] to hit that subscribe button and to [2:14] double-check if you've hit it. Only [2:16] thing I'll ever ask of you. [2:17] Do we have a deal? [2:18] If you do it, I'll tell you what I'll [2:19] do. I'll make sure [2:21] every single week, every single month, [2:23] we fight harder and harder and harder [2:24] and harder to bring you the guests and [2:25] conversations that you want to hear. [2:27] I've stayed true to that promise since [2:28] the very beginning of The Diary of a [2:29] CEO, and I will not let you down. Please [2:32] help us. Really appreciate it. Let's get [2:34] on with the show. [2:35] >> [music] [2:38] >> Graham Hancock, I guess the first [2:40] question I wanted to ask you is what is [2:42] it you've committed the last more than [2:44] 30 years of your life to understanding? [2:47] >> What it is is a a puzzle. [2:50] I'm puzzled by aspects of the human [2:53] past. [2:55] There could be [2:57] and I think there's a lot to suggest [2:59] there was a major forgotten episode in [3:01] the human story. That's why I refer to [3:04] us as a species with amnesia. And when I [3:07] use that phrase, I need to give credit [3:09] to Immanuel Velikovsky, who wrote a book [3:11] called Mankind in Amnesia. I think we [3:14] are a species with amnesia. I think we [3:16] have forgotten something very important [3:18] in our own past. And when I turn to the [3:21] experts, I find much of what they say [3:23] very interesting and very useful. But [3:26] some of what they say extremely [3:27] unsatisfactory and and not responding to [3:31] the problems that that I have in the [3:33] past. And that's led me to to take my [3:36] own approach to the past, to look at [3:38] that, and and to offer [3:40] uh readers, cuz I'm mainly an author, [3:42] occasionally make TV shows, to offer [3:44] them an alternative point of view, which [3:46] is rational and and and solidly based, [3:50] but which is contrary [3:52] to key aspects of the mainstream [3:54] narrative. We only have decipherable [3:57] written scripts from the last 5 and 1/2 [4:00] thousand years maximum. Before that, we [4:02] don't have any any writing that we can [4:05] at any rate read. Go back 10, 12, 15, [4:08] 20,000 years, all you can base it on [4:11] from an archaeological point of view is [4:13] what they can dig out of the ground. And [4:16] I think what they're missing, the [4:18] ancients did leave us memories of what [4:20] they went through. We have myths and [4:23] traditions and scriptures from all [4:26] around the world which record a gigantic [4:30] cataclysm affecting the human race and [4:33] all but wiping out the human race. [4:35] Everybody knows the story of the flood [4:37] of Noah. Of course, the flood of Noah is [4:39] just an one example of hundreds like [4:42] that of stories from around the world. [4:45] Uh archaeologists pour scorn on Plato's [4:48] story of Atlantis. Uh but Atlantis is [4:50] another of those stories that remembers [4:52] a global flood that wiped out a former [4:55] era of existence leaving only a few [4:57] survivors. And the archaeological [4:59] response to them is [5:01] there was a local river flood. [5:04] They exaggerated it. It was a big deal [5:06] for them, so they said it happened to [5:07] the whole world. And I'm sick of [5:08] archaeologists saying that. This is the [5:10] memory banks of our species. This is the [5:13] record the only record we have of a [5:15] period before 6,000 years ago. And we [5:18] shouldn't despise it and scorn it as [5:20] primitive superstition. We should say [5:22] what can we find in here that we can [5:24] coordinate with scientific facts that [5:26] we're aware of. Let's see if there's [5:28] something to this rather than just [5:30] dismissing it. Many of these myths [5:33] contain [5:34] imagery and a series of numbers. A very [5:37] important academic study published in [5:39] the 1960s, a book called Hamlet's Mill [5:43] by Giorgio de Santillana, Professor of [5:45] the History of Science at Massachusetts [5:47] Institute of Technology and head of the [5:48] foundation Professor of history of [5:50] science. This is not me speaking. This [5:51] is major major historians of science in [5:53] the 1960s. They found encoded in those [5:57] myths numbers and imagery that could [5:59] only relate to one thing and that's an [6:01] obscure astronomical phenomenon called [6:03] the precession of the equinoxes. I'm not [6:05] going to go into the technical details, [6:07] but to observe it and to record it and [6:09] to predict it to predict its effects in [6:11] the future involves very precise [6:13] astronomical observations maintained [6:15] over a very long period of time, [6:17] hundreds and hundreds of years at least. [6:19] So here we have myths of a global [6:20] cataclysm. There is just so much else. [6:23] There are ancient maps that show the [6:24] world as it looked during the ice age [6:26] again dismissed as just total [6:28] coincidence and not significant by [6:29] archaeology. I feel that archaeology has [6:32] failed miserably in providing a [6:34] nurturing satisfying answer to the [6:36] questions we all have. [6:38] >> So when you say global cataclysm, [6:41] what does that mean? Means that some [6:43] something hit the planet, there was we [6:45] were wiped out? [6:46] >> Yeah, there there there are a number of [6:48] options and again I need to stress this [6:50] because because there's so much [6:52] propaganda in this business I'll be [6:53] immediately accused of lunatic fringe. [6:56] The solid science that's been done on [6:58] this [6:59] is twofold. One aspect of it, the one [7:02] that I think it I find most persuasive [7:04] is called the Younger Dryas impact [7:06] hypothesis and this is a mainstream [7:08] hypothesis, but it is severely [7:11] criticized within academia. The [7:13] hypothesis is that [7:15] >> about 20,000 years ago [7:17] >> [snorts] [7:18] >> a very large comet [7:20] came in from deep space and went into [7:22] orbit around the sun. [7:24] This would be a comet of the diameter of [7:26] 100 km, maybe 200. Comes in, gets [7:30] captured by the sun's gravity, goes into [7:32] an orbit. That orbit crosses the orbit [7:34] of the earth. [7:35] While you're dealing with one large [7:38] object, the chances of getting hit are [7:40] extremely low. It would be very bad if [7:42] you did, but very low. Trouble is [7:46] nobody disputes this. Once comets are [7:48] caught by the gravitational field of a [7:50] very large planet or of a sun, they [7:52] start to break up into multiple parts, [7:55] and this is what happened to the Younger [7:56] Dryas comet. Instead of being a single [7:58] bullet, it became a shotgun blast. It [8:00] became thousands and thousands of [8:02] objects, of which we've cataloged quite [8:04] a lot. Numbers of them, comet Encke is [8:07] the best known bit of that [8:09] former comet. Many of the academics who [8:11] look at this think that comet Encke, [8:13] which is about 6 km in diameter and [8:15] which does cross the orbit of the Earth, [8:17] they think that that was the source [8:19] comet. But whereas the other team are [8:21] saying, "No, that's a bit of the source [8:22] comet. There were many other bits as [8:24] well." And 12,800 years ago, 12,860 [8:28] approximately, the Earth went into a [8:30] storm of these fragments. None of them [8:34] big enough to compare with the object [8:35] that wiped out the dinosaurs 65 million [8:38] years ago, [8:39] but all over the Well, the Earth is [8:40] turning, this stuff comes in. They found [8:43] it in the west coast of North America, [8:44] they found it in Belgium, and they found [8:47] it as far east as Syria. So, it's like [8:50] the Earth turns and this stuff is just [8:51] coming in. Most of it is blowing up in [8:54] the air. It isn't even hitting the [8:55] ground. But an airburst from an object [8:58] that might be 100 m in diameter is [8:59] equivalent to a very substantial nuclear [9:01] blast. So, their argument is the Earth [9:04] was hit by [9:06] a comet storm. And this they then argue, [9:09] and I think they're right, uh explains [9:11] what happened then. Because 12,800 years [9:13] ago, [9:14] we were still in the ice age, [9:16] uh but the Earth was coming out of the [9:18] ice age. In fact, for about 1,000, maybe [9:21] 2,000 years before that, the Earth had [9:23] been getting warmer, getting quite nice. [9:26] And you would normally expect that to [9:28] continue. But then suddenly, 12,800 [9:31] years ago, give or take 60 years, [9:34] there's a huge interruption. There's a [9:36] radical change. The earth, instead of [9:38] warming, it suddenly goes back into a [9:41] massive deep freeze. And this is the [9:43] time when all the famous [9:46] big animals of the ice age, the [9:47] megafauna, are wiped out. The woolly [9:49] mammoths, the mastodons, the giant [9:52] sloths, these things like 14 ft tall, [9:54] you know, they're all they're all wiped [9:56] out in that window around about 12,800 [9:58] years ago. And most important of all is [10:01] a very mysterious sea level rise that [10:03] occurs then. [10:05] This you would not expect when the earth [10:06] is entering a cold phase. [10:08] Normally, when earth enters a cold [10:10] phase, ice accumulates on the existing [10:12] ice caps. [10:13] It doesn't melt and go into the sea. So, [10:17] the next thing is, how do we explain [10:18] this sudden rise in sea levels at the [10:20] beginning of Younger Dryas? It shouldn't [10:22] have happened. [10:23] The comet theory explains it perfectly. [10:25] The the the mass, the impact, the heat, [10:28] the air bursts, that would have been [10:29] enough to send the ice sheets into [10:31] meltdown and to [10:33] cause this pulse of meltwater. Then the [10:35] freeze sets in. [10:37] You have about 1,200 years of freezing [10:40] desperately cold conditions. And then [10:42] again, 11,600 years ago, whoomph, it [10:45] suddenly warms up. I mean, these are [10:46] radical climate changes. They're beyond [10:48] anything that's happening now. And uh I [10:51] I think explanations are needed for [10:52] them. And because 12,800 years ago may [10:55] sound a long time ago, but it's really [10:57] yesterday in the human story. Uh so, [11:00] something very big [11:02] happened to the earth and happened to [11:04] our ancestors 12,800 years ago. If it [11:07] wasn't a comet, another theory that's [11:09] been put forward is a radical change in [11:11] solar activity. This might have been [11:12] involved with it as well. I [11:14] don't find that as persuasive as the [11:16] Younger Dryas impact hypothesis. And you [11:18] know, maybe some other explanation will [11:20] come up. But what nobody disputes is [11:21] that the Younger Dryas was a [11:22] catastrophe. [11:24] Uh it was global [11:26] uh and and it had huge effects. [11:28] >> You um you chose intentionally to come [11:30] and have this conversation today? [11:33] >> W- [11:34] >> today? [11:35] >> Well, I've been quite unwell, really [11:37] noticeably unwell since [11:40] January, February this year, [11:42] particularly very [11:44] very short of breath. It's It's because [11:45] of the one of the failed valves in my my [11:48] heart is [11:49] causing blood to regurgitate inside the [11:51] heart rather than pumping it through the [11:53] body. And that means that oxygenated [11:54] blood is not getting to my lungs. I [11:57] probably would live another two or three [11:59] years without the surgery, maybe maybe [12:01] even five. But the quality of life would [12:03] be very low. I I can't even walk up [12:05] three stairs without being being [12:06] exhausted at the moment. So, I've [12:08] definitely decided to to have the [12:09] surgery. Why am I doing this interview [12:11] now rather than postponing it until [12:13] after the surgery and I've recovered? [12:14] Well, there's a tiny chance, absolutely [12:17] minuscule chance, [12:19] that I might not make it off the [12:20] operating table. [12:21] >> This month? [12:22] >> Yeah. [12:23] This month. And if that were the case, [12:26] this would be [12:27] the last time I've spoken about myself, [12:30] my work, [12:31] my life, challenges I faced [12:33] in an open forum like this. And And And [12:36] I I [12:37] I choose to do that, and I'm going to [12:38] say specifically why [12:40] without giving without mentioning names. [12:43] I choose to do that because a journalist [12:46] who has very bad blood towards me [12:49] has been trying to publish a story on me [12:52] for more than two years now. [12:54] And it will come out in the next in the [12:56] next month or two. And I didn't want [12:57] that to be the last word on my life. [13:00] That's why I'm here, Stephen. [13:03] >> What do you want the last word of your [13:04] life to be? [13:05] >> I [sighs and gasps] would [13:07] I would hope that [13:08] people will come to understand that I'm [13:10] not the person that [13:13] a very small minority [13:15] of archaeologists have mobilized social [13:17] media to present me as. I'm not a [13:19] grifter. I'm not a hoaxer. I'm not a con [13:22] man. I'm deeply committed to this. I've [13:24] devoted my my to it for more than for [13:26] more than 30 years. I'm passionate about [13:29] it. It matters [clears throat] to me. [13:30] And I think again, I'll be laughed at [13:32] for saying this, but I feel called to do [13:34] this. I feel I [13:37] I feel it's my obligation and my [13:39] responsibility to do this. [13:41] >> How is that disputed? Cuz I I I guess I [13:44] need to understand human history to [13:45] understand why [13:47] the the the fundamental belief that you [13:49] have that there was a civilization that [13:51] we aren't talking about. [13:53] >> Mhm. [13:53] >> I I'd like to be clear [13:55] >> It's not a belief. Um this is another is [13:57] a mistake that my that my critics of [13:59] often make. They they they think that [14:00] I'm dealing with some sort of belief [14:01] system or some sort of cult here. No, [14:03] I'm not. I'm I'm just puzzled. I'm just [14:06] puzzled by the past and I'm puzzled by [14:09] the memories that have been [14:11] passed down to us. And I'm puzzled that [14:13] those memories [14:14] concur all around the world on a serious [14:18] cataclysmic event. [14:19] >> What is it that the your your people [14:21] that aren't puzzled and are certain [14:23] belief? [14:23] >> Yeah, they think that um glacial lakes [14:26] in North America uh gradually grew in [14:29] size and over spilled the ice dams that [14:32] held them in place and that the um water [14:35] from those lakes, some of it went into [14:38] the Atlantic Ocean and cut the Gulf [14:39] Stream. [14:40] I don't dispute that. Glacial lakes were [14:42] involved, but those lakes were filled up [14:44] at a [14:45] massive speed. Nobody disputes that the [14:48] Younger Dryas was a cataclysmic event. [14:50] It's just that the degree of the [14:51] cataclysm that's disputed and what [14:53] caused it that's disputed. [14:55] >> But everyone agrees that humans are [14:58] 300 15,000 years old. [15:01] >> at present. When I started on this quest [15:03] back back in the late '80s, early '90s, [15:06] it was felt that [15:08] anatomically modern human beings had not [15:10] existed for more than 50,000 years. Very [15:14] recent, really. But this turned out to [15:16] be complete rubbish because anatomically [15:18] modern humans are much older than 50,000 [15:20] years ago. We have 196,000 [15:23] year-old anatomically modern human [15:25] remains from Ethiopia. And then finally [15:29] 315,000 [15:31] years ago, a recent find in Jebel Irhoud [15:35] in Morocco, [15:36] again anatomically modern humans. So we [15:39] can say that [15:41] if we define ourselves by [15:44] our anatomy, [15:45] uh brain size, [15:48] capacity of the skull, if we define [15:49] ourselves in those ways, we've been [15:51] around for at least 315,000 years and [15:53] probably much longer. That's That's just [15:55] an accident of discovery. And that's one [15:57] of the things that puzzles me. If we're [16:00] anatomically modern, if we've got all [16:01] the modern kit, if we've got the same [16:03] brains, we've got the same neurology, [16:05] everything is there, why do we wait [16:09] more than 300,000 years to establish [16:13] something recognizable as a human [16:15] civilization? Why do we wait so long? We [16:17] got all the kit. There's evidence that [16:20] that our ancestors were aware of [16:22] agriculture, just chose not to use it [16:24] much much much earlier than that. The [16:27] complex of [16:28] events that leads to a city-based [16:31] civilization, [16:32] which is the kind of civilization we [16:34] have now all over the world, that you [16:37] can only really trace that back to 6,000 [16:39] years ago. [16:41] Yes, you can say that before 6,000 years [16:43] ago there was build-up to what became [16:46] the high civilizations. [16:48] But my question is why not much earlier? [16:51] Why [16:52] Why did we wait until that moment? And I [16:55] don't find a satisfactory answer to that [16:56] question, except perhaps we didn't wait. [16:58] Perhaps we're missing part of our story. [17:01] And when I say a lost civilization, I do [17:04] not mean a civilization like ours. I do [17:07] not mean an industrial civilization. I [17:09] don't mean they had cell phones or flew [17:12] to the moon or any of that I [17:14] think they were very different [17:15] civilization from ours, but they had [17:17] conquered a number of peaks. And one of [17:20] those peaks was navigation and ocean [17:23] seafaring, hence the survival of maps [17:26] which show the world as it looked during [17:28] the ice age. And another was astronomy, [17:31] uh and another really important [17:34] breakthrough evidenced by by the ancient [17:36] maps, but particularly a category of [17:38] maps called the Portolanos, [17:40] is accurate relative longitudes. This is [17:43] the Orontius Finaeus map. It shows [17:45] Antarctica [17:46] uh right there. [17:48] Uh and and um [17:50] this is interesting cuz this map was [17:51] drawn in 1531. [17:53] Uh the problem is that our civilization [17:56] didn't discover Antarctica until 1820. [17:59] So, its appearance on a map drawn in [18:01] 1521, [18:03] particularly when we know that the map [18:05] was based on older source maps, and the [18:08] mapmaker tells us in his own legend that [18:10] he has uncovered material previously [18:13] hidden in darkness, [18:14] when we find that, [18:16] uh we have to begin to wonder what is [18:18] what is going on here. Had somebody [18:20] found Antarctica long before long before [18:23] we did, [18:24] uh and mapped it with extremely accurate [18:26] relative longitudes. And that's [18:28] important because our civilization [18:31] didn't crack the longitude problem until [18:33] the mid-18th century. What that meant [18:35] was that if you're on a vessel sailing [18:37] west or east, uh you might be 300 mi [18:41] closer to a coastline than you think you [18:44] are. And suddenly, you're on it in the [18:46] night and you're dead. Once you've got [18:47] longitude worked out, you know exactly [18:49] where you are. And we didn't get that [18:50] until 1750, 1760s there about with [18:53] Harrison's chronometer. So, finding good [18:56] longitudes on very ancient maps is [18:57] another puzzle that I don't think [18:58] archaeologists solved. [19:00] >> So, you think there could have been a [19:01] civilization 20,000 years ago which was [19:03] before this Younger Dryas moment where [19:06] um I mean, I've got this photo here [19:07] which I'll throw up on the screen [19:09] I think you say is evidence that [19:11] something took place. [19:12] >> It is. That's That's the Younger Dryas [19:13] boundary. And I'm with Alan West, who's [19:16] one of the scientists from the from the [19:17] comet research group who are working on [19:19] the Younger Dryas hypothesis. And our [19:21] hands are on that black stripe running [19:24] through the middle of the draw. And that [19:25] is soot. That is evidence of wildfires [19:28] burning. [19:30] It's full of nanodiamonds, tiny little [19:32] diamonds, microscopic size, which are [19:34] classic product of comet impacts, [19:37] microspherules, some platinum, some [19:39] iridium. All signatures of a cometary [19:42] impact. And there it is. It's about 5 in [19:45] thick. That layer is the Younger Dryas [19:46] boundary layer. It dates to 12,800 years [19:49] ago. [19:50] >> So, for anyone that can't see, it's just [19:52] like a slice of earth and there's this [19:53] black line going through through the [19:55] earth. [19:55] >> We're in a draw here where a river has [19:57] cut a channel. And it's exposed the [19:59] sides of the channel. And on the sides [20:01] of the channel, we can see this black [20:02] stripe running through. And that is [20:04] precisely the Younger Dryas boundary. [20:06] >> And the current hypothesis is from a lot [20:08] of archaeologists is there wasn't a [20:09] human civilization before this point, [20:12] 12,000 years ago. But you believe [20:13] there's strong evidence that there could [20:15] have been. [20:15] >> Yes. [20:16] >> So, civilization then in your definition [20:17] of the word, how do you define that? A [20:20] group of people gathering and working [20:22] together? [20:22] >> Fundamentally, it involves It involves [20:25] the willing organization or the [20:27] unwilling organization of labor. If you [20:29] look at a site like Göbekli Tepe in [20:31] Turkey, we have it on our timeline here [20:33] somewhere. It's 11,600 [20:36] years old. This is really an [20:39] extraordinary site. It's a It's a very [20:41] sophisticated site. It's very large. It [20:44] consists of large T-shaped megaliths [20:46] that can weigh up to 20 tons. There are [20:49] precise astronomical alignments in it. [20:52] This was not done by two or three people [20:54] working together. This was [20:56] Well, that's the Göbekli Tepe today [20:57] covered by a modern canopy to keep Fair [21:01] enough to keep the the weather off it [21:03] cuz it was previously deliberately [21:04] buried by its builders. [21:07] But of course, there's much more around. [21:09] Hundreds and hundreds more pillars are [21:10] still underground. We know they're there [21:12] because of ground penetrating radar, but [21:14] they've not been excavated yet. So So [21:16] this was a major project. And [21:18] interestingly, the people who built [21:20] Göbekli Tepe at that at the time Göbekli [21:22] Tepe began, there was no agriculture [21:25] happening there. They were all [21:27] hunter-gatherers. [21:28] >> Mhm. [21:29] >> Nevertheless, they did something that [21:30] archaeologists used to say [21:32] hunter-gatherers couldn't do. They [21:33] organized themselves. They made a huge [21:36] project. They implemented it and they [21:38] delivered it. And Göbekli Tepe is not [21:39] alone. It's one of dozens of sites like [21:42] that all over Anatolia in in in Turkey. [21:45] This was a highly organized [21:46] sophisticated hunter-gatherer [21:48] civilization that was involved in making [21:50] this place. [21:51] >> I'm I'm a little bit confused. So if the [21:53] ice age ended 11,700 years ago, [21:56] >> Yeah. [21:56] >> and Göbekli Tepe is 11,600 years ago, [22:00] >> Mhm. [22:00] >> that means there's a 100-year gap [22:02] between the end of the ice age and [22:04] something as sophisticated as Göbekli [22:06] Tepe. [22:06] >> Not exactly because because dates in [22:09] this frame they're not spot-on accurate [22:12] dates. Some will say the ice age ended [22:14] 11,600. Some will say it ended 11,700 [22:18] years ago. But the fact is that in this [22:20] window, the world was warming up again. [22:23] It was getting better. And that's when [22:25] this project was was created. And the [22:28] mystery is mystery for for [22:29] archaeologists anyway is that it was [22:31] hunter-gatherers. And archaeologists are [22:33] now having to come to terms with that. [22:35] You see, the idea was you had to have an [22:36] agricultural community first [22:39] in order to create projects like this [22:42] because that allows people to become [22:43] specialists. If you generate a food [22:46] surplus that you can rely on, then you [22:48] can take people with certain skills and [22:50] say focus on that. Become an astronomer. [22:52] Become an architect. Become an engineer. [22:54] We'll support you in doing that. That [22:56] was the idea and that was why it was [22:57] felt that something like Göbekli Tepe [22:59] couldn't be built until about 6,000 [23:01] years ago when there was widespread [23:03] agriculture, but that turned out not to [23:05] be true. [23:06] Uh it was built by hunter-gatherers, but [23:08] within a thousand years of it being [23:09] built, agriculture becomes present in [23:12] that whole area. [23:13] >> Mhm. [23:14] >> Origins of agriculture are definitely [23:16] earlier than we've than we've been [23:18] taught. [23:19] >> So, I I funny cuz I I don't know a lot [23:21] about the ice age, but humans survived [23:23] the ice age? [23:23] >> Oh god, yes. We we we we did. It's just [23:26] It's just um [23:28] Where do you want to be during an ice [23:30] age? That's the question. [23:32] >> What are my options? [23:34] >> If you were a rational being, which most [23:36] human beings are, [23:37] you would immediately exclude northern [23:39] Europe. [23:40] >> Mhm. [23:40] >> Absolutely [clears throat] [23:41] no point in being in that frozen, [23:43] miserable wilderness. [23:45] >> Mhm. [23:45] >> You'd immediately [clears throat] [23:46] exclude the northern part of North [23:47] America, too. No point in being there. [23:50] It's just horrible at that time. [23:52] Siberia, pretty rough. [23:55] No, you'd look for the tropics. You'd go [23:57] you'd go down close to the equator. [23:59] You'd go to the places that weren't [24:01] affected by the ice age, that were [24:03] actually the best real estate on Earth. [24:05] That's where you'd go. That's why uh if [24:08] we are looking for [24:11] a missing episode in the human story, [24:13] we're wasting our time looking for it in [24:15] northern Europe or North America. Uh we [24:18] should be looking for it in Mexico. We [24:21] should be looking for it in India. We [24:22] should be looking for it in Indonesia. [24:25] We should be looking for it uh [24:27] around Papua New Guinea. All of these [24:30] areas that were that were really great [24:32] places to live during the ice age. [24:34] That's That's the kind of place that the [24:35] sort of civilization I'm talking about [24:37] could have thrived. [24:38] >> What is the difference, you know, cuz on [24:39] here it says the earliest known humans [24:41] were 300,000 odd years ago? [24:43] >> Yeah. [24:43] >> What is the difference between these [24:45] humans 300,000 years ago and the [24:48] civilization you're describing 20,000 [24:50] years ago that you believe existed? [24:52] >> Apart from what is perhaps wrongly [24:55] described as a slight refinement in [24:57] human features, natural selection [24:59] operating on what humans perceive as [25:01] beauty, I don't know, but otherwise the [25:03] same. [25:04] >> The same? [25:04] >> The same, yeah. Yeah. And again, that's [25:06] not that's not disputed. Nobody's saying [25:08] that Jebel Irhoud human beings were [25:11] somehow different from us. They're [25:12] anatomically modern humans. [25:14] >> But how did they live um [25:16] versus your definition of a [25:17] civilization? [25:19] >> They lived a simple hunter-gatherer [25:20] life. [25:21] >> Okay, in small groups. [25:22] >> Yeah. But somehow [25:25] around 11,600 years ago [25:27] people started accumulating [25:30] monuments that can only be made with [25:32] large groups and organized organized [25:34] labor. You've got to you you have to [25:36] have a system. You have to have play [25:37] can't build something like Göbekli Tepe [25:38] without planning it out in advance. [25:40] You've got to draw it out somehow. There [25:41] has to be a plan. It's not something you [25:43] just wing. [25:45] Uh so so there has to there's a missing [25:47] background to all of that which bothers [25:49] me. [25:49] >> And again, so most people think [25:50] civilization started what, 6,000 years [25:53] ago? [25:54] >> Yes, that would [25:55] that would be when civilizations become [25:57] archaeologically visible. So you have uh [26:01] ancient Sumer, Mesopotamia. [26:04] Uh which [26:06] roughly 3,500 I'm going to use BC [26:09] because everybody's familiar with that. [26:10] There are roughly 3,500 BC [26:14] which is 5,500 years ago, approximately, [26:17] we start seeing cities being built. We [26:19] start seeing the beginnings of writing [26:20] taking place round about the same time. [26:23] The same thing is happening in Egypt. [26:24] Maybe a couple of hundred years later, [26:26] but the new work that's being done in [26:28] Egypt is pushing Egypt much closer to to [26:31] Sumer. [26:32] Narrowing that that window. [26:34] Effectively, you can say that these two [26:35] civilizations become archaeologically [26:38] visible at the same time. And uh they're [26:40] not alone because on the other side of [26:42] the world in Peru uh there's a [26:45] civilization now recognized called the [26:46] Caral Supe civilization which built [26:49] pyramids uh which also goes back 5,500 [26:52] years. Uh, and and this is one of the [26:55] mysteries I'm I'm looking at now is is [26:57] why we have these [26:59] apparently coincidental emergence of [27:02] high civilizations in the same window [27:05] all around the world. Indus Valley [27:07] Civilization, roughly the same, 5,000 [27:09] years old. Yeah, we're looking at Caral [27:12] here, I think. Yeah. Yeah. [27:14] And these classic these The feature is [27:17] these circular plazas in front of them [27:19] and then the pyramid with her. [27:20] And and uh, you know, these were not and [27:23] not expected in Peru. When [27:25] archaeologists think of Peru, they tend [27:27] to think of Machu Picchu, the Inca [27:29] civilization. That's what gets all the [27:32] coverage. [27:32] >> And that's 600 years ago. [27:33] >> That's 600 years ago. That's yesterday. [27:36] Whereas these Caral Supe pyramids, [27:40] Caral, Aspero, Bandurria, [27:43] Penico, these ones are [27:46] much older. Thousands of years older. [27:49] They're extremely sophisticated. They're [27:51] built with an earthquake-proof [27:53] technology. They [27:55] instead of using blocks, they put small [27:57] stones in in textile bags. Um, those [28:01] allow a certain amount of shifting, so [28:03] the thing doesn't collapse in an [28:04] earthquake. And this is 5,500 years old [28:07] getting on. So, again, not an [28:10] agricultural civilization at the at that [28:12] time. They're a hunter-gatherer [28:14] civilization. So, so archaeologists are [28:16] having to confront a reversal of their [28:18] model at the moment. And I think there's [28:20] room in that reversal of the model for a [28:22] forgotten episode in the human story. [28:25] >> Tell me about this forgotten episode in [28:26] the human story. [28:28] >> Yeah, it's uh, it's remembered it's [28:30] remembered all around the world as a [28:32] golden age, where there was no violence, [28:35] no cruelty. [28:36] Um, where great healers and sages were [28:40] at work. Where powers that are scorned [28:44] in our society today, such as telepathy [28:47] and telekinesis, which are regarded as [28:50] completely non-existent by our [28:51] scientists, [28:53] uh were regarded as a matter of fact of [28:55] life in in in this ancient world. That's [28:59] uh a civilization that emerged out of [29:02] shamanism uh and [29:05] made something good. [29:06] But then, [29:08] if you follow the myths further as I've [29:09] done, you find something odd happens. [29:12] You find [29:14] that they stepped away from the original [29:17] purity. [29:18] That they've become [29:21] a culture that begins to impose its [29:22] power on others around the world. And [29:26] that's always given as the reason for [29:28] the cataclysm in the myths that that we [29:30] angered the gods. It might have been [29:32] with our noise. It might have been with [29:33] our irreverence. We angered the gods and [29:36] they sent a flood. They weren't happy [29:39] with their creation. They wanted to [29:41] start again, wipe the slate clean. And [29:44] so there's this There's always this [29:45] feeling in the myths, and it's And I [29:47] can't explain it. I don't know what what [29:49] it comes from, but it's always there. [29:51] Is that in some way we ourselves [29:56] brought this upon ourselves. [29:57] >> Is this those people not understanding [29:59] the forces of Mother Nature [30:01] and trying to sort of justify it as [30:04] uh [30:05] >> Or or perhaps a deeper understanding of [30:07] the forces of Mother Nature. [30:08] >> Maybe. [30:08] >> Perhaps the way that human beings are [30:10] operating in the world today um should [30:14] be [30:15] included amongst the forces of nature. [30:17] We we are a geological force. Uh and [30:20] worse than that, we're a psychic force, [30:22] which is full of anger and hatred and [30:24] suspicion and and and mutual [30:26] destruction. That's not going to be good [30:28] for nature. That's [laughter] [30:30] That's going to be disturbing. We're an [30:32] integrated system in my view. We we [30:34] we're not separate. Human beings are [30:35] part of all of this, and what we do [30:37] affects all of that. And that's what the [30:39] ancient myths seem to testify to. [30:42] So, [30:43] if I may finish on that, [30:46] when I look at our civilization today, I [30:48] I don't want to go off on a rant, but [30:49] when I look at our civilization today, I [30:51] see a civilization that ticks all the [30:53] mythological boxes, every single one, [30:56] for the next lost civilization. And I [30:59] envisage a situation [31:01] 10 or 15,000 years from now, when we [31:04] will be a myth, [31:06] a fantasy, [31:07] that our [31:08] our ancestors [31:10] actually could speak to one another on [31:12] opposite sides of the planet, that our [31:13] ancestors, they could fly to the moon. [31:16] Uh, you know, they could go to the [31:17] depths of the ocean. The archaeologists [31:19] of that time will say, "Complete [31:20] fantasy, just made up, never happened." [31:23] But it did. [31:25] We're that lost civilization. [31:28] And we don't need a comet, and we don't [31:30] need solar activity, because of we're so [31:33] psychically messed up as a species, [31:35] we'll probably end up doing it to [31:36] ourselves. [31:39] That's what nuclear weapons are about, [31:40] mass species suicide. [31:46] And the mental [31:47] processes that drive that, [31:50] very dangerous, [31:51] very effective of the world we live in. [31:55] >> [sighs] [31:56] >> Hatred is a [31:57] psychic force, and [32:00] the way it's being generated around the [32:01] world at the moment and mobilized and [32:03] focused, [32:04] is um it's got to be bad for all of us. [32:07] >> Especially when we have such powers to [32:09] self-destruct. [32:10] >> Oh, it's terrible. This [32:11] This is what drives me nuts, is is [32:14] looking at the low consciousness level [32:16] of the so-called leaders on this planet. [32:19] When I look around the whole bunch of [32:21] them, [32:22] I just see very low consciousness [32:24] individuals who define everything in [32:27] material terms, [32:29] uh who who are who are [32:31] who are focused on [32:33] This also gets me into trouble, but I [32:37] I think nationalism something that [32:38] humanity needs to grow out of. We need [32:41] to grow out of nationalism. It's just an [32:43] extension of tribalism. We need to grow [32:46] out of it soon. And let me be clear, I [32:49] am not talking about world government. I [32:52] don't want anything like I don't want [32:54] any government. I'm an anarchist [32:55] basically. That's what anarchy means. It [32:57] means without government. I don't want [32:59] any government at all. But we have to [33:02] get past this notion that by accident I [33:05] was born with this particular skin, you [33:07] know. The notion is that this these [33:09] accidents of birth define us. That we [33:12] must somehow massively respect and love [33:15] people who look like us and and and kind [33:17] of hate and fear people who don't look [33:19] like us. We have to get past that. We [33:21] have to get past that as a species. It's [33:23] really important. All human beings [33:25] everywhere all the same fundamentally. [33:27] Of course we're vastly diverse. We have [33:29] we have incredible different gifts. [33:32] I value and appreciate the differences [33:35] in different cultures all around the [33:37] world. This is wonderful, but it doesn't [33:39] have to come with and we are better than [33:40] you. And we're going to kill you because [33:42] you don't share our ideas. This is [33:45] insane. It's it's crazy. We're not a [33:47] mature species. We're we're a childish [33:49] species and leading our species are [33:52] leaders who have the mentality of [33:56] deranged teenagers. [33:58] >> We elected them. [33:59] >> Yeah, we did. Very unfortunately, which [34:02] shows how easy it is to manipulate the [34:06] narrative in the world today. Today who [34:08] wins in elections isn't the best person. [34:11] Isn't the good person. Isn't the person [34:13] who's going to do good. It's the best [34:14] communicator who wins. [34:16] >> So this [34:17] ancient civilization that we could have [34:18] theoretically forgotten, you were [34:19] somewhat implying that maybe they were [34:21] right that their own actions [34:24] caused the [34:26] great flood as they say. They they they [34:28] talk about it in mythology. [34:29] >> floated that notion, yeah. Yeah. They [34:31] might be might have been. but it's [34:33] enough to say that that's what they [34:34] believed. [34:35] Because that's what all the myths say. [34:37] The Noah story is prefigured in ancient [34:39] Sumer, [34:40] um with um [34:42] an almost identical flood myth. The gods [34:45] are angry. [34:46] A great flood is going to be sent. The [34:48] intention is to wipe out humanity. [34:51] But this this god who's called Enki [34:54] says to Atrahasis, "I'm going to save [34:56] you. [34:57] Build a boat. Build it now, a big one. [35:00] Put into it the seeds of all things that [35:02] you will need. Bring each animal of [35:04] every kind into your boat. This is This [35:06] is a kind of survival ark, which is [35:09] exactly the same as Noah. Noah's ark is [35:11] just copied on that. It's just borrowed [35:12] from that. [35:13] >> And to people that say, "Well, these are [35:14] just stories. These are fictions that [35:16] someone wrote and then they passed them [35:17] down and there's no truth in these [35:18] things at all." [35:19] >> They're welcome to say that. Uh I I I [35:21] just happen to think they're not. And [35:23] And my job has been to make that case. I [35:26] do not claim that I have proved there [35:29] was a lost civilization. Any [35:30] archaeologist who says Hancock claims [35:32] he's proved that is lying. I don't claim [35:34] that. I claim I'm puzzled and mystified [35:36] and I'm going to I'm going to com- [35:38] plete that journey as long as I can. I'm [35:41] going to carry on investigating and [35:42] looking into all aspects of this because [35:45] that's what I'm here to do. [35:47] >> And that lost civilization, you said [35:48] they were sea-bearing potentially. [35:50] >> Sea-faring, yeah. Yeah. [35:51] >> Which means they had boats. [35:52] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, we know for example that [35:55] anatomically modern human beings uh [35:58] reached Australia 60,000 years ago. So, [36:00] that those involve significant sea [36:01] journeys. They reached Cyprus uh in the [36:04] Mediterranean 14,000 years ago. Again, [36:07] they involve sea journeys. Not engine [36:09] boats, not metal boats. You can do it on [36:11] quite simple craft. Look at Look at the [36:13] Polynesians. Look at the vast distances [36:15] that they explored on outrigger canoes. [36:18] Uh so, yeah, boats, but not [36:21] our kind of boats. [36:22] >> Hm. [36:23] I just don't understand how if if [36:25] they're traveling the seas in boats, [36:27] have they they aren't classified as a [36:28] civilization? [36:30] >> Well, [36:31] because [36:32] according to the mainstream model, which [36:34] I am trying to provide an alternative [36:37] to, they never existed. [36:39] There was no such people. They never did [36:41] these things. The maps are just [36:42] coincidences, irrelevant. Just odd They [36:45] put Antarctica They put a a landmass in [36:47] Antarctica cuz they felt it would [36:49] balance the world. That's the theory [36:51] that's given. And it's just To me, it's [36:53] not It's not satisfactory. Doesn't It [36:55] just doesn't add up. These things need [36:57] to be explained. And it's why it's why [37:00] in every society which wishes to make [37:03] progress, [37:05] uh [37:05] mavericks, people who go against the [37:07] grain, no matter [37:11] how much they have to take, are [37:13] needed. They're needed in our society to [37:15] provide a balance to this [37:17] overwhelming [37:19] mass that science now occupies. Science [37:22] has now come to occupy the space that [37:24] religion occupied in many people's [37:26] minds. [37:27] And again, I need to emphasize I'm not [37:29] against science. Science Science is [37:30] about to save my life. I have major [37:32] heart surgery coming up in 2 weeks' [37:34] time. I'm not against it at all, but I [37:35] think it should be one weapon in our [37:37] armory, not the only weapon. [37:40] >> There should be a button just down below [37:42] here. And if it says subscribe, you're [37:44] already subscribed. If it says subscribe [37:46] bar, that means you're not yet. And if [37:48] you're not subscribed, please could you [37:49] do us a favor and hit that button. It [37:51] helps the show more than you know. And [37:52] according to the algorithm, you're [37:54] someone that watches our show, but you [37:55] haven't yet hit that button. Thank you [37:57] so much. [37:58] One of the [37:59] things I was super curious about cuz I [38:00] was actually there last last week [38:03] is this place. [38:04] >> Giza. [38:05] >> Pyramids of Giza. [38:06] >> The Great Pyramid of Giza. [38:09] Here we look at it. [38:10] Attributed to the pharaoh [38:12] Khufu. [38:13] >> [sighs] [38:14] >> Who was a pharaoh of the fourth dynasty. [38:17] >> What is the mystery here? So, again, [38:19] pyramids are this big stack of like [38:21] concrete blocks in Egypt. [38:23] What is the Why is it so mysterious? [38:25] >> Well, first of all, they're not [38:26] concrete. They're They're hewn limestone [38:29] um and granite. [38:30] Uh [38:31] First of all, it's mysterious for the [38:33] sheer size of it. Look. [38:36] So, you got roughly 750 ft along each [38:39] side, okay? [38:41] >> [snorts] [38:41] >> And [38:42] they vary in length by only fractions of [38:46] an inch. They've got it just about [38:48] spot-on exact on the side length, and [38:51] you want that in a pyramid because if [38:53] you get it wrong, you're going to end up [38:54] with a corkscrew rather than a pyramid. [38:57] If you get it wrong at the bottom, those [38:59] errors are going to magnify, and they're [39:00] going to get worse and worse, and it's [39:01] not going to be a pyramid at the end of [39:03] the day. [39:04] Secondly, [39:05] weight calculated at about 6 million [39:08] tons. [39:11] More than 2 million individual blocks of [39:13] stone. [39:14] I've climbed the pyramid five times. [39:16] Once I climbed it when there was an [39:18] event taking place on the Giza Plateau. [39:21] Picnics, basically. And And a lot of [39:24] Cairoenes just decided to climb the [39:25] pyramid. As I say, I've climbed it four [39:27] other times without other people there, [39:29] but this time there were hundreds of [39:31] people on the pyramid. [39:33] That's when I realized how difficult [39:35] this thing is to make because the [39:36] biggest danger was the other people. [39:38] Once you're up [39:40] two or three courses, you fall, you're [39:41] dead. It's uh it's a 52° slope. There's [39:45] no way you're going to stop. You're [39:46] going to come down and still every year [39:48] people die on the Great Pyramid. That's [39:50] why they've made it illegal to climb it [39:51] now. [39:53] So, there's that. Then there's the [39:55] almost perfect alignment of the Great [39:57] Pyramid to true north, not to compass [40:00] north, which is about 10 or 11° off true [40:02] north, but to astronomical north, real [40:04] north. The Great Pyramid is aligned [40:06] within 3/60 of a single degree. I put it [40:10] that way because degrees are divided [40:12] into 60 minutes. So, 3 minutes of arc. [40:14] The Great Pyramid is aligned to that [40:16] level of precision, 360th of a single [40:18] degree to true north. And they've done [40:20] that on a 6 million-ton monument, which [40:22] is 481 ft high, [40:25] if you take account of its original [40:26] height, which has a 52° slope, which is [40:29] filled with internal corridors and [40:31] spaces, grand gallery, the ascending, [40:34] the descending corridors. [40:36] All of this is extremely difficult to [40:39] do. It is It's not impossible to do [40:41] because we see it there. Could our [40:43] civilization do it? Yeah, I think we [40:45] could. [40:46] But, would we do it? No, I don't think [40:49] we would. The motive wouldn't be there. [40:51] People say, "Well, why I mean why do you [40:53] want to align it perfectly to true [40:54] north? It's enough to ask me to build a [40:56] 6-million-ton monument, but you want it [40:59] aligned to true north as well? Come on. [41:01] I mean, that's a really difficult [41:02] specification." We'd find that hard. [41:06] Um a kind of artistry [41:09] was put to work on the Great Pyramid as [41:11] well as skill. Let's get rid of any [41:13] notion that slaves were involved. They [41:15] were not. There there wasn't slavery in [41:17] the Old Kingdom anyway, but this is a [41:19] work of love from the first to the last [41:21] stone. It's a work [clears throat] done [41:23] with great skill and care. It's a [41:25] beautiful and extraordinary thing, both [41:28] inside and out. It sits almost exactly [41:33] on latitude 30, which is 1/3 of the way [41:35] between the North Pole and the equator. [41:38] And [41:39] it incorporates the dimensions of the [41:42] Earth [41:43] on a scale of 1 to 43,200 [41:46] in its own dimensions. So, if you take [41:47] the height of the Great Pyramid and [41:49] multiply it by 43,200, [41:52] I'll explain why that number matters. [41:54] Multiply it by that number, you get the [41:56] polar radius of the Earth. Measure the [41:58] base perimeter of the Great Pyramid, [42:00] multiply it by the same factor, 43,200, [42:03] you get the equatorial circumference of [42:05] the Earth. [42:07] Archaeologists know this. [42:09] They say it's a coincidence, total [42:11] coincidence, just by chance. [42:13] However, I could agree with them [42:15] actually if the scale was not 1 to [42:18] 43,200. [42:20] But the fact that it's 1 to 43,200 [42:23] changes everything because that belongs [42:25] to a sequence of numbers that is found [42:27] in ancient mythology all around the [42:30] world. And those numbers are all [42:32] multiples of the number 72. And I [42:35] mentioned at the beginning of our [42:36] discussion the book by the great [42:39] historian of science, Giorgio de [42:41] Santillana, professor of the history of [42:43] science at MIT. He was the first to [42:45] identify that these numbers and the [42:48] imagery that go with them [42:50] derive from a phenomenon called the [42:52] precession of the equinoxes. I better [42:54] explain that a little bit. The [42:56] precession of the equinoxes [42:58] Everybody's heard the song, "We live in [43:00] the dawning of the age of Aquarius." [43:02] I'm sure you've heard that. [43:05] >> Uh no comment. [43:06] >> [laughter] [43:07] >> We live in the dawning of the age of [43:08] Aquarius. [43:10] That's astrology. [43:11] At the moment, and for the last 2,000 [43:13] years, on the spring equinox, the sun [43:16] has risen against the background of the [43:18] constellation of Pisces. [43:21] That's the age of Pisces. We live in the [43:24] age of Pisces. It's not an accident that [43:25] the early Christians used the fish as [43:28] their symbol. [43:30] The next constellation on the zodiac, [43:32] when you go backwards around it, is [43:34] Aquarius. [43:36] And the precession is actually caused by [43:38] a wobble on the axis of the earth. I'm [43:40] going to pretend that this is the earth. [43:42] >> Okay. [43:43] >> And [43:43] instead of just doing this, while it's [43:46] doing that, it's also doing that. It's [43:49] wobbling. [43:49] >> Mhm. [43:50] >> And that affects the rising time and [43:51] season at which particular stars rise. [43:53] It affects [43:54] two things noticeably. One thing it [43:56] affects is the pole star. At the moment, [43:58] the pole star is Polaris. The pole star, [44:01] this is a strong astronomical north. [44:03] It's the star towards which the the [44:05] north pole pole of the earth points most [44:08] directly. [44:09] >> Okay. [44:10] >> At present it's Polaris. It hasn't [44:11] always been Polaris. 4,000 years ago it [44:13] was Thuban in the constellation of [44:14] Draco. That's because the earth axis is [44:17] doing this. At the horizon it does the [44:19] same thing with the zodiacal [44:21] constellations. We shift gradually [44:23] through each constellation. Last about [44:25] 2,000 years in each constellation. The [44:27] great year where we come back to square [44:29] one is just under 26,000 years. 25,920 [44:33] years is the convention that's applied [44:35] in ancient mythology. So, the fact that [44:38] one of those numbers is the scale used [44:41] to encode the dimensions of the earth in [44:43] the Great Pyramid cannot be accidental [44:45] in my view. It's a deliberate choice. If [44:47] it was 1 to 57,000 [44:49] I wouldn't pay attention to it. If it [44:50] was 1 to 20 [44:52] 1,000 I wouldn't pay attention to it. [44:54] But 1 to 43,200 [44:56] that's the number of syllables in the [44:58] Rigveda for example. You find this all [45:00] over the world, everywhere. [45:02] >> So, what does that imply? [45:03] What suggest? [45:04] >> What it suggests is that incorporated [45:06] into the building of the Great Pyramid [45:09] was knowledge that was not supposed to [45:11] have existed 4 and 1/2 thousand years [45:12] ago. In fact, knowledge that was not [45:15] supposed to have existed until 2,000 [45:17] years ago. Hipparchus of Alexandria is [45:19] the Greek who was supposed to have [45:20] discovered precession. [45:22] Uh but [45:23] the incorporation of precession in the [45:26] structure of the Great Pyramid says to [45:28] me that that knowledge is much older. It [45:30] was already old then. [45:31] >> I really want to make sure I'm clear on [45:33] this precession thing cuz I'm not I'm [45:34] not super clear. [45:35] >> Yeah. [45:35] >> Um what does it what does it mean [45:37] precession? It means that there's a [45:38] certain star pattern that we see once [45:41] every 20,000 years? [45:42] >> It it it it precesses. It goes [45:44] backwards. [45:45] >> Okay. [45:45] >> The direction through the through the [45:47] zodiac is is forwards in the normal [45:50] year. But in the long-term year because [45:52] of the wobble the sunrise against the [45:54] background of the spring equinox the sun [45:56] rises perfectly due east. It always [45:58] does. It also rises perfectly due east [46:01] on the autumn equinox. On the summer [46:03] solstice, the sun rises in the northern [46:05] hemisphere north of east and south of [46:07] east on the on the winter solstice. The [46:09] key moment [46:10] for the ancients was the equinox. [46:13] It was considered to define the [46:15] character of the year and what defined [46:17] it was the constellation that housed the [46:20] sun, that was the house of the sun. [46:22] >> Okay, so the star pattern. [46:23] >> Yeah, the [46:25] a zodiacal constellation. These The [46:27] constellations of the zodiac lie along [46:30] what is called the ecliptic, the path of [46:32] the sun. [46:32] >> Okay. [46:33] >> Okay, the Earth, the Moon, we're all on [46:35] the ecliptic within [46:37] a few degrees above or below it. And and [46:40] therefore, these are constellations that [46:42] we can see the sun against the [46:44] background of. [46:44] >> Mhm. [46:45] >> Constellation like Orion, you'll never [46:47] see the sun against the background of [46:48] it. You're only going to see it against [46:50] the background of the zodiacal [46:51] constellations that lie on the so-called [46:54] path of the sun. And those are the 12 [46:56] familiar constellations of the zodiac. [46:58] And as I say, [47:00] we're living in the age of Pisces right [47:01] now and according to ancient astrology, [47:05] we're going to be making the transition [47:08] into Aquarius within about the next 150 [47:10] years. The sun will have left Pisces and [47:12] will be rising in Aquarius. So that [47:14] actually the song is true. We do live in [47:16] the dawning of the age of Aquarius. The [47:17] only question is whether that means [47:18] anything or not. The ancients thought it [47:20] did. [47:21] We think it doesn't. [47:23] I'm not sure who's right. [47:25] >> So, I'm going to repeat this back to you [47:26] to check if I'm I've got it correctly, [47:28] but [clears throat] I suspect I might [47:29] not have. Within the design of the [47:31] pyramids, there was a number which you [47:34] said was 43,200. [47:36] >> It's a scale. [47:37] >> It's a scale that's used for the height [47:39] and the base perimeter of the Great [47:41] Pyramid. Base perimeter measure, four [47:43] sides added together, height, the actual [47:46] height of the Great Pyramid. It's true [47:47] original height. It lost about 30 ft in [47:50] an earthquake in 1301, but you can [47:52] calculate the true original height from [47:54] the angle of the [47:56] of the sides. [47:57] >> Ah, yeah, Right. [47:58] >> Um and when you take that height [48:01] and multiply it by 43,200, [48:05] you get the polar radius of the Earth. [48:07] >> You get the radius of the Earth. [48:08] >> that's from the center of the Earth to [48:11] the edge of the Earth. It's not the [48:12] diameter of the Earth. The diameter is [48:14] twice the radius. [48:15] It's the It's the polar radius. [48:17] >> Okay. [48:18] >> A key dimension of the Earth. [48:20] Measure the sides and you get [48:23] on the same scale, 1 to 43,200, you get [48:26] the equatorial circumference of the [48:28] Earth. What the Earth measures at its [48:29] equator, its largest its largest [48:31] measure. [48:33] Um and and that [48:35] uh is either a coincidence or is [48:37] deliberate. And because of the number [48:39] chosen and because that number is all [48:42] over ancient mythology, I think it's [48:44] deliberate. [48:45] >> Did that means that they must have known [48:47] the circumference of the Earth? [48:48] >> Yeah. It means that they knew the [48:50] circumference of the Earth and it means [48:51] they chose [48:52] a place to put the Great Pyramid which [48:54] also was relevant. [48:56] This isn't latitude 23 or latitude 37. [49:01] This is just a fraction off latitude 30° [49:04] north. So, therefore, 1/3 of the way [49:07] between the equator and the North Pole. [49:08] It's a It's a It's a significant [49:10] relative What it's telling us is this [49:12] monument speaks to the Earth. This [49:14] monument is locked into the true north [49:17] of this planet. [49:18] This monument gives you the dimensions [49:21] of this planet. This monument is [49:23] speaking to this planet. [49:25] >> How could they possibly know the [49:26] circumference of the Earth 4,500 years [49:28] ago? [49:28] >> Because they're a lost civilization. [49:30] Because the the knowledge comes down [49:32] from a former time. I don't think the [49:34] Egyptians knew it. I think it came down. [49:36] I think it was inherited knowledge from [49:40] what I'm here [49:41] to advocate for and to speak for, the [49:44] possibility of a major forgotten episode [49:46] in the human story. [49:47] >> Which could be 20,000 years ago. [49:49] >> Yes. [49:49] >> And they've passed it down in in myths [49:52] and stories. [49:53] >> Yes. Passed it down but not only in [49:55] myths and stories. [49:56] Um this is something else that I will [49:59] I'll just hint at here that I intend to [50:01] get into [50:03] in the new book [50:04] is that there appear to have been [50:06] organizations [50:07] in each of these civilizations. In Egypt [50:10] they were called the followers of Horus. [50:15] In Sumer they were called the Apkallu. [50:19] They served as advisers to kings. They [50:21] were called sages. There's a reference [50:23] to them. Many cultures refer to them as [50:25] the seven sages. [50:27] They provided advice to kings in the [50:29] historical period. [50:31] And I'm wondering whether we're looking [50:32] at some kind of [50:34] long-lived organization here which is [50:36] carrying down information looking for [50:39] the right time to switch the engine of [50:42] civilization back on again. I know it's [50:45] sounds extreme but [50:47] that's what I do. I explore I explore [50:49] extreme ideas and see whether [50:51] and see whether they fit or not. And I'm [50:53] beginning to find this idea does fit. It [50:56] It fit It fits with a whole range of [50:57] information which will be in the next [50:59] book. [51:00] >> A sage that reports to the king and [51:02] dictates [51:02] >> only reports to the king but advises the [51:04] king. [51:05] >> On what? [51:05] >> On everything. On what to do. [51:07] >> Oh okay. [51:08] >> Yeah. [51:09] The Apkallu in the ancient traditions of [51:12] Sumer they existed in the pre-diluvian [51:15] world. They were there in the world [51:16] before the flood. [51:18] Then there and and they taught mankind [51:21] knowledge then. [51:23] But [51:24] the flood came, the cataclysm came. They [51:26] were wiped out but some of the Apkallu [51:28] survived and they appear after the flood [51:31] as advisers to the earliest historical [51:33] kings of Sumer. And I'm just wondering [51:36] whether [51:37] you know, there are there are religions [51:40] in the world which have maintained [51:43] traditions and maintained offices, [51:45] priesthoods for example, for thousands [51:47] of years. I don't see why the same [51:49] shouldn't be true here, why there [51:50] shouldn't have been some driving motive [51:53] at the end of the Ice Age to preserve in [51:55] a way what they knew, and to find [51:56] mechanisms to pass it down. One [51:58] mechanism is to embed it in wonderful [52:00] stories that will go on being told, and [52:02] another mechanism is to set up some kind [52:05] of secret society, which is operating [52:07] behind the scenes to guide and steer [52:09] society. I'm not going to present the [52:12] evidence for that here, but it's an [52:13] avenue I'm pursuing. If I If I don't [52:16] find it a satisfactory avenue, I'll [52:18] abandon it, but at the moment it's [52:19] looking very interesting. [52:21] >> Then where did all this information [52:23] go? You know, cuz if the people who [52:26] built the pyramids of Giza had this [52:27] information, where did the sages go and [52:29] with their information? [52:30] >> Yeah, it's very it's very odd, actually. [52:32] What What happens after Giza is [52:33] fascinating, [52:35] um because once you [52:38] once you leave the Fourth Dynasty [52:39] period, you get into the Fifth and Sixth [52:42] Dynasties, pyramid building collapses. [52:46] The stuff they're making in the Fifth [52:47] Dynasty, like the Pyramid of Unas, [52:49] Fifth Dynasty pyramid [52:51] in Saqqara, [52:54] inside, it's stunningly beautiful. [52:56] Beautiful tomb chamber, stars on the [52:59] ceiling, incredible hieroglyphs on the [53:01] side. It's [53:02] magical. But outside, it's just a pile [53:05] of dust. It's a mess. It doesn't even [53:07] You could hardly recognize it as a [53:09] pyramid. And it's true of all those. So, [53:11] this is odd in itself. [53:13] Normally, when human cultures create [53:17] something, they continue to work on it, [53:19] and it tends to get better and better, [53:21] not worse and worse. So, it's odd what [53:24] happens to the pyramids, that they get [53:25] worse and worse in Egypt. It's like, [53:27] "Job done. Done that. Move on." And [53:29] that's there. [53:31] And that's going to speak [53:33] to human beings not just for a [53:35] generation, not just for a hundred [53:37] years. It's going to be there speaking [53:38] to us for thousands of years. It's going [53:40] to be sitting there on the Giza Plateau, [53:42] like an enormous question mark, [53:44] calling towards it those who don't see [53:46] it just as a heap of stones, but [53:48] actually see it as something wonderful [53:49] and magnificent and mysterious, calling [53:52] them to it and saying, "Learn about me. [53:55] Figure me out. And in the process of [53:57] learning about me, you're going to learn [53:59] so much else." Well, in learning about [54:00] the Great Pyramid, I find that it is [54:03] encoded with astronomical information [54:04] that should not be there if the current [54:07] model of the history of science is [54:09] correct. [54:11] I think the current model of the history [54:12] of science is wrong. I think this [54:13] information was known much earlier, and [54:15] it's encoded in the Great Pyramid. Once [54:17] I know that, then I have to start [54:19] thinking, "What else does that mean?" [54:20] And what else it means to me is a big [54:24] forgotten episode in our story. [54:26] >> Again, why? [54:28] Because they had intelligence that [54:29] they're not credited with having at that [54:31] time. [54:31] >> Yes, because it's there. Because they [54:33] should not be a monument of this [54:36] scale, which incorporates into it [54:40] information that was not supposed to be [54:41] available to human beings for another 2 [54:43] and 1/2 thousand years. [54:45] >> So, they must have got it from [54:45] somewhere. [54:46] >> Yes, they must have got it from [54:47] somewhere. And and the fact that it's [54:50] there is it's [54:52] it's just a fact. And all that's left [54:53] for us to say is [54:55] either it's a coincidence, complete [54:57] coincidence, or [55:00] it's the result of a deliberate [55:02] decision. [55:03] And if it's the result of a deliberate [55:04] decision, that weighs much more towards [55:07] a deliberate decision because of the [55:08] scale chosen. Because the scale is part [55:11] of a system that is found all over the [55:13] ancient world. It's not a random number. [55:15] It's a very specific number. [55:18] Uh and it's a number that is derived [55:20] from a motion of the Earth itself, from [55:22] the precession of the Earth's axis. It [55:24] is derived from that. So, [55:26] I'm situated at a significant latitude. [55:29] I'm oriented to true north, and I [55:31] incorporate the measurements of your [55:34] planet [55:35] on a scale derived from your planet [55:37] itself. That's what the Great Pyramid is [55:38] saying to us, and it's saying, [55:40] "Figure that out." [55:42] >> Do you think there's something [55:43] underneath it? [55:44] >> Oh, there's definitely something [55:45] underneath it. [55:46] >> Cuz we think of it as this sort of like [55:47] building with the with tunnels inside [55:49] it, but [55:49] >> Yeah, when you go into the Great Pyramid [55:51] now, you go in through what is what is [55:54] called the Robbers' Tunnel or Mamoun's [55:57] Hole. The Caliph al-Mamoun [55:59] had a notion that [56:01] there would be a entrance to the Great [56:02] Pyramid in its northern face. [56:05] Other pyramids had been found with [56:06] entrances in their northern face, but at [56:08] that time, the Great Pyramid was [56:09] completely covered with perfectly smooth [56:12] limestone facing stones, and nobody [56:13] could see the entrance. [56:15] They came off later in that earthquake [56:17] in 1301, but when he broke in in the 9th [56:19] century, [56:21] they didn't know where the door was. [56:23] Apparently, there was a place you could [56:25] almost literally press a switch and open [56:27] that door, but they couldn't find it. [56:28] So, they broke in with sledgehammers and [56:30] chisels, and they smashed their way into [56:32] the Great Pyramid, and then, [56:34] at a certain moment when they're about [56:36] 60 or 70 ft into the Great Pyramid, they [56:38] hear something dropping in a hollow [56:40] space. [56:41] A big [56:42] something has fallen in a hollow space. [56:44] They head towards that sound, [56:47] and then, they enter the original [56:49] corridor system of the Great Pyramid. [56:50] And that's the way we all go in now. We [56:52] go in through that Robbers' Tunnel, and [56:54] then we go up the Grand Gallery, but we [56:56] can also go down. We can go down to the [56:58] subterranean chamber, which is 100 ft [57:01] vertically beneath the base of the Great [57:03] Pyramid, deep in the bedrock. I actually [57:06] think that was the original sacred site [57:08] on that monument is that subterranean [57:10] chamber. [57:11] I don't advise anybody with [57:13] claustrophobia to go down there. [57:15] You're very conscious that you've got a [57:16] 6-million-ton monument sitting right [57:19] above you in a place that has [57:20] earthquakes. [57:21] Um it can be quite oppressive, but [57:24] that's just a hint of what's under the [57:26] Giza Plateau. That's just that's an [57:28] accessible bit. [57:29] Uh but it's it's it's already obvious [57:31] that there there there is so much more. [57:33] Some of it's been picked up with ground [57:35] penetrating radar. And I'll take this [57:37] opportunity to say that the hysterical [57:40] reaction of mainstream scientists to the [57:44] announcement by Filippo Biondi uh [57:47] >> What is he saying? [57:48] >> He's saying that there are enormous [57:49] structures under the second pyramid, [57:51] that not the Great Pyramid, under the [57:52] pyramid attributed to Khafre, Khufu's [57:55] successor. The the structures that go [57:58] hundreds of feet deep under there. [58:01] Structures that involve spiral [58:04] kind of stairways. The reaction has been [58:07] overwhelmingly dismissing this. [58:09] Archaeologists have not They won't look [58:10] further. They say it's impossible, and [58:13] they won't look at it. And I think [58:14] that's shameful for people who imagine [58:16] they're scientists. They should be [58:18] looking further. I'd like to see the [58:19] technology trialed in Turkey. There are [58:21] underground cities in Turkey, Kaymakli, [58:24] for example. We know every room in those [58:26] underground cities. Run this technology [58:29] on them. If they accurately reproduce [58:31] what we already know is there, then we [58:33] can be pretty sure they're accurately [58:34] reproducing what's under the Giza [58:36] pyramids. We need to do a lot more work [58:38] before dismissing this. So I'm I remain [58:40] open to the notion that a huge [58:42] underworld awaits discovery under Giza. [58:45] And the ancient Egyptians themselves [58:47] felt that way. They felt that Giza, the [58:49] ancient name for it was Rostau, it was [58:51] an entrance to the underworld. They saw [58:53] it as an entrance to the afterlife [58:55] realm. It makes sense that there would [58:57] be much much underground structures [58:59] there. [58:59] >> And you've been alone in the pyramids? [59:01] >> Being with large groups in the pyramid [59:03] is difficult in the sense that the [59:04] pyramid to me feels like a personality. [59:07] When I'm in there with a large group, I [59:09] I feel the pyramid withdrawing. It It [59:11] It's like it doesn't want to speak to [59:13] you anymore. It's The place becomes a [59:15] dead space. [59:16] But But if you can be in there with a [59:18] very small group or be there alone [59:21] and just be still [59:24] let the silence descend, [59:26] sit in that silence in the very low [59:28] lighting that's in there. [59:31] Just pause and [59:35] remind yourself that you're in the last [59:36] surviving wonder of the ancient world. [59:38] It's an incredible privilege to be [59:40] there. [59:42] And just let it speak to you. [59:44] And it does. [59:45] This is of course my critics will say [59:47] another proof that Hancock's a lunatic. [59:49] But [59:51] I'm just telling you what what what what [59:52] happens to me. It's a I I think it's a [59:54] monument that communicates. [59:56] >> What did it say to you? [59:58] >> It said to me go further. [59:59] >> [laughter] [60:01] >> Very much so. [60:02] I've I I I feel [60:06] in a weird way [60:08] validated by the Great Pyramid. I think [60:10] it's um [60:12] not only me, others as well [60:15] who've devoted big chunks of their lives [60:16] to the Great Pyramid like Robert Bauval [60:19] who is a great man by the way. [60:22] The Orion Correlation the recognition [60:24] that the three pyramids on the ground [60:25] are laid out in the pattern of the belt [60:27] stars of the constellation of Orion [60:29] makes radical and important changes to [60:31] our understanding of ancient Egypt. [60:32] Again, that's another thing that's been [60:34] leapt upon by the archaeological mafia [60:37] because they want to destroy every new [60:38] idea [60:39] rather than spend a bit of time thinking [60:41] about it. [60:43] >> You guys know that I only drink one type [60:45] of coffee these days and it's called [60:47] Cometeer. If you don't know the brand, [60:49] they flash freeze coffee at the perfect [60:51] moment to lock in all of the amazing [60:53] flavor. They've done something [60:54] incredible. They've gone all around the [60:56] world and they found the most delicious [60:58] coffees from all of these places and [61:00] they've created a world mug competition [61:03] box that you can buy. So if you want to [61:06] try coffee from Honduras or Panama or [61:08] England or the USA or Italy or France, [61:11] you can then order that particular [61:12] coffee on subscription to come to your [61:14] house. No machines necessary. 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[62:45] If what you're saying is true around the [62:49] you know, the first civilizations being [62:50] 20 plus thousand years ago, what does [62:53] that mean for us, for our lives? [62:57] >> Oh, it's it's really important meaning [62:59] for us because because it will finally [63:01] remind us and tell us once and for all [63:03] that we're not what it's all about. [63:05] It's not all about us. The whole human [63:07] story is not about us. It's not [63:10] inevitable that it comes to this, and [63:12] that we are temporary like every other [63:14] civilization. We're so filled with [63:16] arrogance and pride right now with our [63:18] technological achievements, our great [63:21] abilities, our great powers. [63:24] And the arrogance that comes with that, [63:27] the Greeks used to call that hubris. [63:29] It's it's [63:30] ultimately ends in nemesis. Ultimately [63:33] brings you down. Arrogance arrogance is [63:35] not a good thing. It's not a good thing [63:37] in an individual and it's a terrible [63:39] thing in a civilization. [63:41] >> It also means that a lot of the things [63:43] that we've dismissed as [63:45] you know, conspiracy or you know, hocus [63:48] pocus, whatever, [63:49] might not be. I mean, you talk a lot [63:51] about like astrology and stuff like that [63:52] and [63:53] >> Yeah, I think we should keep open to to [63:56] systems that the ancients used which [63:58] we've dismissed. [63:59] >> Like [64:00] >> Which might be very Astrology is one of [64:02] them. What does astrology ultimately [64:04] say? It ultimately says that [64:07] we, these beings, these humans, [64:10] aren't isolated, but are connected to [64:12] the universe and are affected by [64:14] everything that happens in the universe. [64:16] And it's And it's recognizing that there [64:18] may be patterns in that. And instead of [64:21] instead of just rubbishing that or doing [64:23] a few investigations, I think it maybe [64:25] worth looking further into that. Worth [64:27] looking further into telepathy, too. My [64:29] friend Rupert Sheldrake, serious [64:31] scientist, one of the very few who's [64:33] doing serious scientific work on [64:37] issues like telepathy and like [64:39] telekinesis, being able to move things [64:41] with your mind. [64:42] Mainstream scientists, most of them will [64:44] just laugh at that. Absolute rubbish. [64:46] Yeah, go away, you're a lunatic. [64:48] But why are we lunatics to look into [64:50] those things? It's really interesting [64:52] and it's really worth investigating. We [64:54] should realize that we have a heritage [64:57] of hundreds of thousands of years and I [65:00] believe it's even older than 315,000 [65:02] years. We do not have a heritage of 100 [65:05] years, which is the heritage of modern [65:07] science. Well, let's let's be generous. [65:10] Let's put modern science even back to [65:12] the Greeks in a way, but it doesn't [65:14] become what we would recognize as [65:16] science until the 19th century really. [65:19] So, it's a very young thing. [65:22] If you take the human being as the [65:25] as the heart of this and and and you [65:27] were to find a little pimple on the nose [65:29] of that human being, that would be [65:30] science. [65:31] >> Mhm. [65:31] >> It's a pimple on the nose [65:34] of hundreds of thousands of years of [65:35] human experience. Why should we be so [65:37] arrogant to dismiss those hundreds of [65:40] thousands of years of human experience [65:42] in the favor of 150 years maximum of [65:45] so-called science? [65:47] >> I mean, one of the interesting things is [65:49] I actually did go to the Amazon [65:51] rainforest in Peru. [65:52] >> Um [65:53] and they've discovered these like big [65:55] square things underground. [65:56] >> I've been involved in that. [65:58] >> What is What is that? [65:59] >> Well, the the name that's been given to [66:01] them is is geoglyphs. [66:03] >> Geoglyphs. [66:05] >> I think I know this one. Nobody knew [66:06] they existed at all until about 40 years [66:10] ago. [66:10] >> Really? [66:11] >> And uh because the Amazon rainforest is [66:14] a rainforest and and densely covered [66:17] with uh canopy. [66:19] However, [66:21] it's constantly being settled. This is a [66:23] problem in itself. It's constantly being [66:25] settled. The Amazon is being cleared and [66:26] it's being turned into farms. It's the [66:28] clearance of bits of the Amazon [66:29] initially that exposed [66:32] these huge geometric structures [66:34] >> Mhm. [66:35] >> under [clears throat] the rainforest. No [66:36] longer under because they cleared the [66:37] rainforest. Now, with lidar, I've been [66:39] involved with Martti Pärssinen. In fact, [66:41] he was on my Netflix show. He's a [66:43] archaeologist from Finland and and with [66:46] Alteo Ramzi, a Brazilian geographer, um [66:50] what they're doing is a [66:52] dense lidar survey of the whole of Acre [66:54] province in Brazil. [66:56] This is in Acre province as well. The [66:58] areas that are still under canopy [67:00] rainforest. And lidar can see through [67:02] the canopy and it can see raised objects [67:05] underneath and it can actually give you [67:06] the shape of that object. Then they can [67:08] go in low [67:11] you know low impact just a few of them [67:13] go in check it out see what's there and [67:15] then begin the archaeology on the site. [67:17] >> I mean this is a prime example. I've got [67:18] a I've got a list here of things that we [67:20] used to believe and things that [67:22] [clears throat] [67:23] how those beliefs have changed and one [67:24] of them was that we used to believe that [67:25] the Amazon was an untouched wilderness. [67:28] But in the 1970s we discovered yep what [67:30] a thousand of these structures? [67:32] >> At least [67:33] they're they're they're confident now [67:35] from the lidar work talking of thousands [67:39] 3 5 6000 there are also roadways that [67:42] run for 100 kilometers plus. [67:44] There's absolutely no doubt that the [67:46] Amazon once supported a population of [67:48] millions with extraordinary clever [67:51] management of rainforest soils by [67:54] creating a man-made soil that they call [67:56] terra preta. It's still used in Brazil [67:58] today. We are having to [68:01] completely reconceive the Amazon. [68:04] It was thought of as a pristine [68:06] rainforest which a few human beings [68:09] wandered around aimlessly in hunting [68:12] whatever. [68:13] Now we know that it was [68:16] the homeland [68:18] of a very large population who lived in [68:20] city-sized communities [68:23] um [68:24] who joined those communities with long [68:26] straight roadways. [68:28] It's it's as though the veil is being [68:30] pulled back and we're beginning to see a [68:32] completely untold story in the Amazon [68:35] and these geoglyphs [68:37] very precise rectangles triangles [68:40] circles squares all of these geometry [68:44] geometry what what's it what's it doing [68:46] there in the Amazon? And and when I when [68:48] I talked to a local shaman about this [68:50] and I did on on camera in the in the in [68:52] the Netflix show [68:53] he talked to me about how important [68:56] these places still are to him that these [68:57] places were made by their ancestors that [69:00] they're are for shamanic gatherings. [69:03] Places for shamans to use specifically [69:07] to contact the world beyond. Let's be [69:10] clear about this. All civilizations, [69:11] including ours, although we may deny it, [69:14] all of them emerged from shamanism. [69:16] Shamanism is the essence [69:18] of the human adventure. And and all [69:22] civilizations emerged from shamanism and [69:23] this one was shamanism, yes. Shamanism [69:26] being the system of using altered states [69:29] of consciousness to gain direct access [69:33] to other levels of reality. [69:35] >> Like psychedelics? [69:36] >> Yeah, psychedelics or you can fast for a [69:39] month. That will give you some visions, [69:41] too. There there are there are other [69:43] ways, but but psychedelics are the most [69:45] efficient way to enter the altered state [69:47] of consciousness and shamans are masters [69:50] of the use of plant medicines everywhere [69:52] in the world, but particularly in the [69:53] Amazon rainforest. This is this is where [69:54] you you see it most strongly. And DMT, [69:57] the active ingredient of ayahuasca, [69:59] is very fast-acting in the way that it's [70:01] normally consumed. [70:03] Okay? It's normally vaped or smoked. [70:07] It produces a 10-minute journey [70:10] literally to the other side of reality. [70:13] And there's not much you can do about it [70:14] once you're in there. [70:16] But then you're out again. [70:18] Ayahuasca [70:20] is a very clever technology. The [70:22] ayahuasca brew contains DMT. [70:25] DMT is not orally active. So, you can [70:28] drink a tea made of with loads of DMT in [70:31] it and it's not going to do anything to [70:32] you because there's an enzyme in the gut [70:34] that destroys it. [70:36] >> [clears throat] [70:37] >> The ayahuasca vine [70:39] contains a chemical that shuts that [70:41] enzyme down and allows the DMT to be [70:43] absorbed orally, producing an experience [70:46] that can last for hours that can be [70:48] physically very uncomfortable. [70:50] What they're doing at Imperial College [70:52] is they're giving them DMT by [70:54] intravenous infusion. [70:57] Using basically anesthesia technology to [71:00] constantly top up the dose to keep the [71:02] individual in the peak state. And unlike [71:04] other psychedelics, there's no tolerance [71:06] with DMT, so you can keep on [71:08] dosing people. [71:10] >> When you you've taken ayahuasca 80 [71:12] times? [71:12] >> Something like that. Something like [71:14] that. Um [71:16] It's not just [71:18] It's important to be clear about a [71:20] number of things. [71:22] First of all, [71:24] all psychedelics are extremely serious [71:27] matters. They are not to be taken [71:28] trivially. They are extremely serious. [71:31] With uh [71:33] experienced use of ayahuasca, one of the [71:35] very common reports is this moral [71:38] dimension. That you are presented with [71:40] your own life, with what you've done [71:43] with your own life, with the pain that [71:45] you may have caused to others. And [71:47] suddenly, that pain that you caused to [71:49] another person, which you dismissed as [71:51] they just deserved that, they just [71:52] deserved those words, you suddenly get [71:54] it from their point of view. You feel [71:55] the agony that your words caused that [71:58] person. [71:59] And [72:00] and you find yourself that did I do [72:02] that? Did I say that? You suddenly see [72:06] what you are. [72:08] You can't go back into your own past and [72:10] change negative and useless and [72:12] pointless things that you did. You can't [72:14] do that. [72:15] But you can avoid repeating them in the [72:17] future. [72:18] And it's that teaching of a moral lesson [72:21] uh that I find most valuable in [72:23] ayahuasca. It's helped me to come to [72:25] terms with my tendency to swift anger. [72:28] I'm I'm very aware that that's a problem [72:30] I have and it's something I need to do [72:32] something about. And I I was goes helped [72:34] me with that. I've I've become gentler [72:37] and and softer. Not gentle enough, [72:38] maybe. It's a journey. It's not a It's [72:40] not an overnight transformation, not a [72:42] magic pill. Uh the main work with [72:45] ayahuasca comes after the medicine. The [72:48] main work comes with what you do with [72:49] the experience, how you integrate it [72:51] into your life. That's where the work [72:52] begins. People say "Oh, it's so easy to [72:54] take a [72:55] a brew." Well, it's not actually not [72:57] that easy cuz you're going to vomit and [72:59] have diarrhea, but but easy. [73:01] Um [73:02] but that's where the work begins, not [73:03] where it ends. [73:04] >> And that emotion, is that Does that stem [73:06] back to your relationship with your [73:07] parents? [73:08] Because I was reading about your early [73:10] your early life. [73:10] >> Yeah. [73:11] Look, we're all frail human beings. [73:13] We're all messed about in lots of ways. [73:15] We all have We all have issues in our [73:17] lives. Um and [73:18] >> regret. [73:20] >> Regret. Yes, I I do regret saying [73:22] hurtful and unkind things to a number of [73:24] people over the years. I do I do regret [73:27] that very much. I do regret very much [73:30] that I wasn't [73:33] I wasn't mature enough to realize why my [73:35] parents were so difficult. Uh that I [73:38] never really forgave them for that. I [73:40] never really forgave them for [73:42] the strangeness of my childhood and and [73:45] uh [73:46] the various things that that that that [73:48] happened. I never really saw it from [73:50] their point of view. My mother lost [73:51] three children aside from me. I'm an [73:53] only child, but her first child was [73:55] carried to term before me and born dead. [73:58] Then I was born, I lived, and then the [74:00] next two both died at the age of a year. [74:02] Well, I know now, as a father, I know I [74:05] know what what kind of catastrophe that [74:08] is for a person for a for a mother to to [74:10] lose three children like that. [74:12] >> You said weird childhood. [74:15] >> Yeah. [74:16] So, this is me. [74:18] This is little Graham here with my [74:20] mother and my father. I was It was 1954 [74:24] that we landed in India. My father was a [74:26] surgeon consultant surgeon, and so he [74:28] went as a missionary surgeon to India to [74:31] a place called the Christian Medical [74:32] College in Vellore in South India. Um [74:35] and we lived in a tin hut. But he was [74:37] following his faith. He was doing what [74:39] was what was right for him. He was [74:40] giving his skills to help to help [74:42] people. I I realize that now, and a a of [74:45] resentment I have towards him, I [74:47] probably, you know, [74:49] shouldn't have. Um he was an odd guy. He [74:52] was very eccentric. He used to take me [74:54] in to watch dissections. [74:56] Um [74:57] there there were still hangings in India [74:59] at that time, and he would dissect the [75:01] prisoners after the hangings. He had me [75:03] in there watching it. Um he took me [75:05] later on when I was what age? Uh [75:08] uh [75:08] five. [75:09] >> You were watching bodies being cut up at [75:10] five? [75:11] >> I was, yeah. Absolutely. Very strange. [75:13] See, it was presented to me as [75:15] completely normal. Um but but it was it [75:18] it it was strange. Fundamentally, he was [75:19] a good man, I believe. [75:22] >> But I think [75:23] allowing a four- to five-year-old child [75:26] be [75:27] to see those things is deeply traumatic [75:30] in a way that you probably don't [75:31] recognize until later. [75:33] >> I I agree. It's it's come home to me [75:35] more and more as the years have gone by [75:38] that what happened to me in those years [75:39] in India [75:41] scarred me deeply. It wasn't just the [75:44] operating theaters and the dissections [75:47] the dissections. It was [75:49] the gloom and the misery and the despair [75:53] that settled over my family at that [75:55] time, and I don't think I ever really [75:56] recovered from that. [75:57] >> Did you have nightmares? [75:59] >> Yeah. [75:59] >> And what what were those nightmares? [76:03] >> Um [76:04] usually nightmares of loss, usually [76:06] nightmares of [76:08] suddenly I'm alone. I'm in a I'm in a [76:11] I'm completely isolated, lost, alone. [76:15] >> The reason I ask these questions is [76:17] there's only ever been one other guest [76:20] who I sat here with a couple of years [76:22] ago [76:23] >> Mhm. [76:23] >> [clears throat] [76:23] >> who I believe's dad was a surgeon. [76:25] >> Mhm. [76:26] >> And his dad brought him in to watch [76:29] operations and dissections when he was [76:31] young. [76:32] >> Yeah. [76:32] >> And it scarred him in a way that he [76:35] didn't realize until later. [76:37] >> Yeah. [76:37] >> And he told me about the nightmares of [76:38] waking up in the night and seeing those [76:40] bodies of those people around his bed on [76:43] a predictable basis and told me he he's [76:45] actually the guy that um [76:47] coached Michael Jordan. [76:48] >> Mhm. [76:48] >> And then um [76:50] Kobe [76:51] bef- before Kobe Bryant um passed away [76:54] and he told me still as an adult those [76:56] bodies to join him at night time. So, [76:57] he'll wake up at night time and he'll [76:59] see them around [77:00] around his bed. So, [77:01] >> Well, thank you, universe. That didn't [77:03] happen to me. I I I do not have I don't [77:05] remember having gruesome nightmares. I [77:08] remember a feeling of loneliness and [77:11] abandonment. That's what I remember. [77:13] >> Loneliness and abandonment. [77:15] >> Mhm. I've always felt that way. I was [77:17] always an outsider at school. Uh [77:21] everywhere I've been all my life. That's [77:24] what I'm for. I'm here to be an [77:25] outsider. I've come to that conclusion. [77:28] And and uh [77:30] I need to do that well. [77:31] I need to provide an alternative point [77:33] of view on the past. [77:35] >> There's a real cost to being an [77:35] outsider. [77:36] >> Oh, yeah. But, there are also some [77:38] benefits. You know, we are what we are. [77:40] And and for me, I was always strange. I [77:42] had this childhood in in in India. I [77:45] didn't fit into the British school [77:47] system. [77:48] I was a total failure at school. I could [77:51] not connect. I could not connect with [77:54] any of it. It seemed I just didn't get [77:56] it. What was this about? And and and the [77:57] cruelty, the viciousness. My my dad went [78:00] to a boarding school and had a good [78:02] experience. So, he sent me to a boarding [78:03] school in Durham in the north of [78:05] England. It was the cruelest place. [78:08] Beatings going on I I was repeatedly [78:11] beaten about the bare buttocks by a [78:13] sadistic headmaster with a cane. I [78:16] couldn't fit in with the other kids at [78:17] school. And uh I don't feel victimized [78:20] for being an outsider. I feel I feel [78:21] it's a privilege. I feel I've been given [78:23] I've been given an opportunity to take a [78:26] different view of things as a result of [78:28] being an outsider. [78:30] >> Are there words unsaid here with these [78:32] two people in your life? [78:33] >> are there are so many words unsaid. I'd [78:35] like to go back to my mom and say [78:39] you know, I understand why you were so [78:41] obsessed with keeping me alive and [78:42] making sure that I did something with my [78:44] life. And I'd like to say to my dad, [78:46] "Look, you you were pretty crazy, but [78:48] you you did at least inspire me to be [78:50] eccentric." [78:52] It's funny thing getting older. I'm 75, [78:55] 76 in August. [78:57] >> [snorts] [78:57] >> One of the things it does is it you [78:59] realize how collapsed life actually is. [79:02] I remember being a teenager, and I [79:04] remember being a young man, and and and [79:05] I remember being middle-aged, and the [79:07] feeling is [79:08] you're immortal. It's going to go on [79:10] forever. Everything's going to go on [79:11] forever. And it's long, long, lots of [79:14] time to do the things you want to do. [79:17] I have a message. No, it's not long. [79:19] There is not lots of time. If there's [79:21] things you want to do with your life, [79:23] start now. Start right away. Don't wait. [79:26] Otherwise, you'll not have the [79:27] opportunity. Life is very short. It's a [79:29] beautiful, beautiful gift that the [79:32] universe has given to us. [79:34] We are responsible for returning that [79:36] gift by as far as possible within the [79:38] circumstances that the universe has [79:40] given us living a full life and [79:42] contributing something worthwhile to [79:44] that life. Not being a robot, not being [79:48] commanded what to do. Not We We need to [79:51] learn to think for ourselves. This This [79:53] is something that [79:55] is so easily forgotten. [79:57] It's a miracle [79:59] that you and I are sitting here at all. [80:00] I'm here, that you're here, that we're [80:01] here together. It's absolute miracle. [80:03] It's the result of billions and billions [80:06] of years of processes in the universe [80:08] which had nothing to do with us randomly [80:10] bring us together at this at this point. [80:13] It's It's really quite a miraculous [80:14] situation to be alive, to be born at all [80:17] is a miracle. [80:18] Um I think it was Voltaire who, talking [80:20] about reincarnation, [80:22] uh who said, um "It's no more [80:24] extraordinary to be born twice than to [80:26] be born once." [80:28] Uh and I think there's a point in that. [80:30] >> Are you religious? Do you believe in a [80:31] god or [80:31] >> I would [80:32] >> that I am um that I pay [80:35] attention, close attention, to what I [80:38] would regard as the spiritual, [80:39] non-physical side of life. Um but I do [80:42] not belong to any organized religion. [80:44] One of the things I don't like about [80:45] organized religion is that your [80:47] relationship to the divine, whatever you [80:49] call the divine, spirit world, whatever [80:51] you want to call it, your relationship [80:52] is mediated in some way, some priest or [80:57] rabbi or mullah teaches you how to [81:00] mediate that relationship. And I I think [81:02] what's important in for me anyway in in [81:05] the spiritual inquiry is a direct [81:06] relationship, a direct experience, [81:08] rather than being taught something. I [81:10] want to experience it for myself. And [81:12] that's why I found ayahuasca very, very [81:14] valuable um because it has enabled me to [81:17] experience something that is absolutely [81:20] impossible to experience in normal [81:22] everyday life. We're so plugged in. [81:24] We're so plugged in to the physical [81:26] world, and we have to be. We got to be. [81:28] We got to obey the laws of physics. We [81:29] got to deal with the economics of our [81:31] circumstances. You know, we have to make [81:33] our way through life. All of those [81:34] things we've got to do. [81:36] Um [81:37] but [81:39] if they become our total focus, [81:42] we become shut off from everything and [81:44] anything else that may exist. And what [81:47] the big psychedelics can do, if they're [81:50] taken in the right circumstances with [81:51] the right advice, [81:54] with sincere intention, what they can do [81:56] is get you out of your own way and allow [81:59] you to connect to that wider realm that [82:01] normally you cannot connect to. And yes, [82:03] I do believe that a wider realm exists. [82:06] Uh just in the same way that uh you you [82:08] you you [82:09] you know, before the invention of the [82:10] microscope, we had no idea that there [82:12] were bacteria. I think I'm right about [82:14] that. We started seeing these tiny [82:15] little things swimming around. Gosh, [82:17] major discovery. Well, they were always [82:19] there. We just didn't have the kit to [82:20] see them. And I'm suggesting that what [82:23] psychedelics can be, and certainly what [82:24] they're used as shamans by for, is a [82:28] technology, a device. [82:30] for getting you out of your own way and [82:32] allowing you to connect with other [82:33] levels of reality that in daily life it [82:36] doesn't serve you to be connected with. [82:40] >> The interesting thing about DMT in [82:41] particular is when you speak to people [82:43] who have done DMT. You know, I spent [82:45] about a year working in a quite a big [82:47] psychedelics company just to I got [82:49] really fascinated. I'd left my company. [82:50] I didn't have anything to do with my [82:52] time. [82:53] So, I started this podcast and I also on [82:55] YouTube and I also started working at a [82:58] psychedelics business cuz I found the [82:59] the studies on mental health and [83:01] psychedelics really interesting. So, I [83:02] have quite a deep understanding, I guess [83:04] higher than average of ibogaine and [83:06] ayahuasca and DMT and my partner [83:09] is very very spiritual and has done all [83:11] these things as well. So, [83:13] one of the fascinating things is how [83:14] similar people's experiences are on [83:16] something like DMT. The fun funnily [83:18] enough, your description of these [83:20] creatures saying, "You'll you belong to [83:23] us now." is almost verbatim [83:26] what what what one of my friends [83:28] described 2 weeks ago. [83:30] That they were teleported into this like [83:32] 4K realm where these creatures that are [83:35] like slightly animal in their anatomical [83:38] structure, maybe slightly a little bit [83:39] human as well, basically was like had [83:43] had taken hold of him [83:45] and they were very curious and [83:46] inspecting him. Very colorful realm and [83:48] then they kind of sent him back or at [83:49] least, you know, after the And it and it [83:51] does make one wonder. I think one of my [83:53] conclusions was if if inhaling a small [83:55] chemical [83:56] can completely take me to another place, [84:00] then and and if you from a reasoning [84:02] perspective, it's just a it was an one [84:04] inhale of a chemical, [84:06] then it goes to say that my current [84:08] perception of reality yeah, [84:11] is just is as fragile as an inhale of a [84:15] chemical. Like me thinking that I'm here [84:17] with you now is as fragile as inhaling [84:21] one chemical. So, to think that this is [84:23] base reality when the difference between [84:25] this and being with some grasshopper [84:27] people [84:28] >> Yeah. [84:28] >> in 4K [laughter] [84:29] >> Exactly. [84:30] >> is literally an an ale. It just That for [84:32] me I was like, "Oh, wow. Okay." [84:34] >> It's an extraordinary realization when [84:37] that comes and it causes us to question [84:38] the nature of reality itself. And this [84:41] is um [84:43] This is what's really important about [84:45] these medicines. First and foremost, [84:46] you're right. The these um psychedelic [84:49] medicines are proving incredibly [84:51] effective as therapeutic tools. And [84:53] that's great. I I I really [84:55] think that's incredibly valuable. But [84:57] there's another level to go, which is to [84:59] the inquiry into the nature of reality [85:02] and the inquiry into what consciousness [85:04] is. [85:05] These medicines are very effective means [85:07] to conduct that inquiry and that's why I [85:09] applaud what they're doing at Imperial [85:11] College in London. They're also going to [85:13] be doing trials at the University of [85:16] California, San Diego. [85:18] Um they're going to be doing trials in [85:20] Costa Rica. [85:22] Uh a whole range of places now are [85:23] looking into this cuz it's really [85:24] interesting. People coming back and [85:26] reporting the same experience when they [85:28] haven't compared notes yet. How do we [85:30] explain that? Because it's in a vision [85:34] and people say that at the moment the [85:36] default mode is to dismiss it and say [85:38] that's just rubbish. Don't waste time on [85:39] it. Our preconceptions about the nature [85:43] of reality should not limit our inquiry [85:47] into the nature of reality. And at the [85:49] moment, still unfortunately, there are [85:52] preconceptions about the nature of [85:53] reality, which is that it's [85:55] material-based, that there's nothing [85:57] else to it really. Everything is reduced [85:59] to matter. Even consciousness is reduced [86:02] to matter. It's reduced to the physical [86:04] matter of the brain. We don't know that [86:06] for sure. We don't know what's going on. [86:08] Consciousness is absolutely not [86:10] understood. And so, when we have [86:11] mysteries like people who are injected a [86:15] small dose of a chemical like DMT and go [86:17] off into a completely other reality. [86:20] That's really interesting. And it's it's [86:22] it's it's at at least as interesting, if [86:25] not more interesting, than exploring [86:27] other planets right now. I think we need [86:29] to I think we need to explore ourselves [86:31] first. We need to [86:33] We're not in shape as a species to start [86:36] exploring the universe. We don't want to [86:38] export our toxicity to other parts of [86:41] the universe until we've overcome it, [86:43] until we've grown up as a species, which [86:46] we haven't done yet. We need to know [86:47] ourselves. Psychedelics are one way to [86:49] do that, not used irresponsibly, but [86:53] used responsibly in a structured, [86:55] careful, thoughtful way. They can be [86:58] very helpful in knowing ourselves. [87:01] That's the journey we need to do first. [87:03] Go to Mars by all means, you know, go to [87:05] the moon, we go even further, but do [87:08] this first. Know who you are first [87:10] before you start doing those bigger and [87:12] wider investigations. Get all that [87:14] sorted out, cuz we hardly sorted out [87:16] anything on this planet, and we're [87:18] talking about exploring other planets. [87:19] Well, I'm all in favor of exploring [87:22] other planets, but I'd like to sort out [87:24] things on this planet first. That's [87:25] where the resources should be going, and [87:27] we should stop kidding ourselves that we [87:29] can just escape this planet and make a [87:32] complete of it, leave it, and [87:34] go and live somewhere else. No, we can [87:35] fix this. We are capable of fixing this. [87:38] We are capable of fixing everything. [87:40] Human beings have enormous potential. [87:42] We're just using a fraction of 1% of it [87:46] at the moment. [87:47] >> The question I you know, I mean the [87:48] obvious question that comes to mind is [87:50] how. I see, you know, maybe [87:53] I don't know, maybe some kind of leader [87:54] comes along. [87:55] >> Could be. Um [87:57] I think we need to [87:59] need to move past leaders. [88:00] >> I just don't know how else humans would [88:01] change without some kind of leadership. [88:03] >> difficult to see. I agree with you. It's [88:05] very It's very difficult to see how it [88:07] happens. One person at a time, [88:09] um slowly through through word of mouth, [88:11] through experience. But look, [88:14] everything in the ayahuasca garden is [88:16] not all flowers either. There's a lot of [88:18] very wrong behavior going on there. [88:20] People are exploiting that medicine. [88:22] Basically, drug dealers are exploiting [88:24] that medicine and offering it [88:25] irresponsibly to people in groups of 100 [88:28] or even more. That that that's that's [88:31] actually really really stupid to do [88:33] that. Ayahuasca is an intimate [88:35] experience and it needs to be done in a [88:37] very small group, not a very large [88:39] group. [88:41] So it's not it's not all roses. I'm not [88:43] I you know, I'm not trying to paint [88:45] these medicines in a [88:46] in in a false light. They have their [88:48] downsides. They have their problems. [88:50] They are extremely serious. We should [88:53] always research and investigate before [88:55] any experience with psychedelics, but [88:57] they have a part to play and it's an [88:59] important part and thank God we're [89:01] seeing its effects in psilocybin effect [89:03] on long-term depression. Very important. [89:06] Post-traumatic stress disorder, very [89:08] important. These therapeutic [89:10] breakthroughs hopefully will open the [89:13] door to further inquiries into the kind [89:17] of work that's being done at Imperial [89:18] College. What does this really tell us [89:20] about the mystery of consciousness? What [89:23] does this really tell us about what we [89:24] think is real? [89:26] >> If you're thinking about starting a [89:27] business, one of the first decisions [89:28] you'll have to make is actually one of [89:30] the most important, which is where do [89:32] you build that business? Our product [89:33] team, who manages everything we do from [89:35] our conversation cards to our diaries, [89:37] has always used our sponsor, Shopify. [89:40] There are a few reasons for this, but [89:42] one of the big ones is that when you're [89:44] running a business, you really need your [89:45] own store and grown customer data. And [89:48] Shopify gives you exactly that. 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[90:27] >> Through your journey through um ancient [90:29] civilizations, what have you come to [90:31] learn about what this consciousness [90:32] thing is, if anything at all? Or at [90:34] least what people believed? [90:35] >> Yeah. [90:36] >> Um and how those similar mythologies [90:37] were similar. [90:38] >> Yes, I've partly I've partly come to [90:40] this through the ancient texts. There's [90:43] a very specific uh scene in a number of [90:48] the ancient Egyptian funerary text. It's [90:50] called the judgment scene. [90:52] And what you see is you see the deceased [90:55] entering into a hall, into a room, at [90:57] the end of which sits the god Osiris [90:59] enthroned. [91:01] And uh the deceased is led into the hall [91:04] by the goddess Ma'at. She's recognized [91:06] by a feather that she wears in a [91:08] headdress. She's the goddess of truth, [91:10] justice, [91:11] and cosmic harmony. [91:14] He enters [91:16] the hall. There's a scale in the hall. [91:20] In one pan of the scale [91:22] is an object that represents his heart [91:24] {oblique} his soul. Heart and soul were [91:27] the same thing for the Egyptians in that [91:29] sense. [91:30] And in the other pan [91:32] is the feather of Ma'at. [91:34] The feather of truth, harmony, and [91:36] cosmic justice. [91:38] You do not want your heart to outweigh [91:40] the feather [91:41] at that moment. [91:43] You want at the very least to be in [91:46] balance. [91:48] And in order to be in balance, then [91:50] comes into question the whole way that [91:52] you've lived your life. Up on the wall [91:54] of the hall, there are 42 little [91:56] figures. They're called the 42 negative [91:58] assessors. Each one of them's going to [92:00] ask you a question. [92:02] Did you steal? [92:04] Did you kill? Actually, the 10 [92:05] Commandments are all in there and a lot [92:06] more as well. [92:08] Ideally, [92:10] you should be able to answer no to all [92:11] of those questions, but the ancient [92:12] Egyptians [92:14] always understood how frail human beings [92:15] are and that we can always make [92:17] mistakes. The question is, what do we do [92:20] when we make a mistake? Do we learn from [92:21] it or do we keep on repeating it? And [92:23] what I read into that is [92:25] you were given [92:27] you, the deceased, you were given an [92:29] incredible opportunity. [92:31] We allowed you to be born in a human [92:33] body. [92:34] You could have a range of experiences [92:36] that no other physical form on your [92:38] planet could have. You you you had this [92:40] huge brain. You had this enormous [92:42] capacity. We gave it this to you. [92:44] What did you do with it? [92:48] Did you use it well? [92:49] Or did you squander it and waste it? And [92:51] at that moment, you'd better be there [92:53] with some answers about how you used it [92:55] well. [92:56] So, as I come towards the end of my [92:57] life, I look very carefully at my life I [93:01] and um [93:02] I try to undo wrongs that I have done in [93:05] the past if I can and I try to make sure [93:07] I don't do any more in the future. I [93:08] want to be a nurturing [93:11] and positive [93:12] and useful person to the people around [93:14] me. [93:16] >> The the health situation you've gone [93:17] through is clearly made you quite [93:19] introspective, probably more so than you [93:20] you might have been 10 years ago, I'm [93:22] guessing. [93:22] >> Oh, yeah. Ab- absolutely. I was still [93:24] immortal 10 years ago. [93:26] >> [laughter] [93:27] >> Listen, each and every one of us, every [93:29] single human being on this planet could [93:32] die in the next minute. [93:34] Life is that fragile. It's that sudden. [93:37] You can never predict you you how long [93:39] you're going to live, but what something [93:41] like this does, it focuses the mind and [93:44] it does make me wish more and more that [93:47] I can leave this life with [93:49] as few regrets as possible [93:52] and that I can feel that I played a [93:54] useful and positive role [93:57] in the life of others and that I [94:00] even played [94:01] in some way a useful and positive role [94:05] in the life of the species [94:07] to which I belong. [94:09] >> Are you happy? [94:11] >> I am very happy. [94:14] In a lot of ways, I'm blessed to have [94:18] lived the life I've lived, [94:20] to have traveled the world, to have the [94:23] adventures that I have had. [94:25] I'm blessed with a beautiful and [94:27] wonderful wife and companion, my wife [94:29] Santha. [94:30] >> I've got this wonderful picture of her. [94:31] >> Yeah. [94:31] >> She glows. [94:32] >> That's me and Santha. [94:34] We met when we were about 40 years old. [94:37] And um [94:38] I don't think we've been apart more than [94:41] 4 days in the entire 30-plus years [94:44] uh since then. [94:45] >> Wow. [94:46] >> Uh we do everything together. We travel [94:47] together. Santha's a photographer, [94:49] brilliant photographer. Um and and uh I [94:52] do not have a great visual eye. So, we [94:53] work together. I do the words, Santha [94:55] does the pictures. We have the [94:56] adventures together. We did the scuba [94:58] diving together. Santha nearly lost her [95:00] life twice in intense currents [95:03] scuba diving. She's brave. She's an [95:06] adventurer. [95:07] She's a wonderful mother. [95:09] This is so important. Santha and I have [95:11] six children between us. Santha brought [95:14] two from her previous marriage. [95:15] I brought two from my first marriage and [95:17] two from my second marriage. [95:19] So, six children from three broken [95:21] marriages is a potential disaster. [95:24] Santha brought them all together into a [95:26] group of loving, deeply committed [95:28] siblings who care for one another, who [95:31] are constantly in each other's lives, [95:32] who are there to support one another. [95:34] Santha did that [95:36] by just being a brilliant, loving [95:38] person. So, I'm very happy [95:41] to have such a great partner [95:43] who's stood by me through thick and thin [95:46] and who's brought out these wonderful [95:48] characters in in in our children and now [95:51] our grandchildren. You know, nine [95:52] grandchildren, six grandkids. [95:54] All of it's down to Santa. [95:56] >> It's remarkable that through all the [95:57] wonders of human history and all the [95:58] things we talked about, that love, [96:01] like this kind of romantic love, is [96:05] so central, so important, so central to [96:07] our happiness. I just thought, "Oh, it's [96:09] so It's just a wonderful reminder of um [96:11] how easy it is to get caught up in the [96:13] material and and all the toxic, whereas, [96:16] you know, [96:17] so much of it comes from just the [96:19] simplicity of falling in love with [96:20] someone." [96:20] >> Love is what it's all about. And and [96:22] love is love is giving. It's giving [96:24] yourself [96:26] to somebody else. It's putting the other [96:28] person [96:29] Sorry, I'm going to end up crying. This [96:31] This is what my [clears throat] wife [96:32] does [96:33] all the time with everybody. [96:37] She puts other people first. [96:39] And uh [96:41] others benefit enormously from that. I'm [96:43] very fortunate. [96:45] I think I think if I hadn't met Santa [96:49] when I did and we hadn't formed this [96:51] joint life, [96:53] I think [96:55] I would have made nothing of my life. [96:56] Nothing at all. I think it would have [96:58] just gone down the tubes. I needed a [97:00] loving steering hand at that point. [97:03] Anyway, very lucky. I I I am happy. [97:05] There are things that make me unhappy, [97:06] of course, just like every every every [97:08] other human being. I I [97:10] don't understand why those who are [97:13] bitterly opposed to my work want to try [97:15] and present me as some kind of fraud or [97:17] grifter, but I suppose it's a easy way [97:20] to lazily dismiss somebody else. Uh [97:22] another thing that has been used [97:25] is because I've considered the [97:27] possibility of a lost civilization [97:29] having an influence on other known [97:32] historical civilization, uh I've been [97:34] accused of racism, as well. [97:36] That I've been I've been accused of [97:38] taking away the authenticity of [97:40] indigenous achievements. [97:42] Um and and that again has been without [97:45] without any receipts. It's not been it's [97:47] just thrown out there as an accusation. [97:50] Now, for me with with a multi-ethnic [97:52] family, [97:54] uh that racism abuse that has been [97:56] thrown at me constantly uh is extremely [97:59] hurtful and extremely painful. It's one [98:02] of the few things that have been thrown [98:03] at me that I actually cannot forgive. [98:06] It's unforgivable to use that lazy [98:11] easy dismissal. [98:14] In a society where a lot of people don't [98:15] read anymore, I mean, I can pretty much [98:17] guarantee people who hear that on the [98:19] internet, they're not going to go and [98:20] read the books and actually find out [98:21] what I said. They're just going to take [98:23] it as face value. So, that does hurt and [98:25] it does make me sad. But generally, I'm [98:27] blessed. I'm lucky. I've lived a [98:29] fantastic [98:31] privileged life. I've explored the [98:33] world. I'm surrounded by love and [98:36] onwards and upwards as far as I'm [98:38] concerned. [98:39] >> Well, you know, Graham, I think at the [98:41] end of the day, the thing that endures [98:43] is [98:44] the impact the curiosity that you've [98:46] you've provoked in people, allowed them [98:48] to wonder beyond the narrowness of our [98:50] lives, which is quite miserable. A [98:52] narrow life is feels kind of like a [98:53] miserable life where you can't be [98:54] open-minded and explore. And And that's [98:56] why I love these conversations. It's not [98:57] to say that I [98:59] that I always accept when I have these [99:00] kind of conversations everything to be [99:01] 100% true. But the net benefit for me is [99:04] just expanding my mind to possibility. [99:07] >> Absolutely. [99:08] >> And like, please don't rob me of the [99:09] opportunity to expand my mind to [99:11] possibility. [99:12] What would my life become without [99:14] possibility or hope or all these things? [99:16] And And actually, when I look at [99:18] graphs like this that show how our [99:19] beliefs uh and scientific understanding [99:22] has changed even in recent times as as [99:24] recent as 2017 [99:26] on this particular graph, I go, "Well, [99:28] I'd have some arrogance to assume that I [99:29] know it all today." [99:30] >> Totally. Thing Things are Things are [99:32] constantly changing. You know, every [99:34] turn of the spade in an archaeological [99:37] dig can change the whole story. Change [99:39] the whole story. This is not limited to [99:41] archaeology. This is found in all fields [99:43] where there are specialists [99:45] that they they tend to get locked into a [99:47] particular reference frame and actually [99:49] defend it in a territorial way. It [99:52] becomes like a war and they they they [99:55] feel absolutely responsible to defend [99:57] that territory against all comers and [99:59] will use any dirty tricks that are [100:00] needed to be used in order to defeat the [100:02] enemy. So you asked me a straight [100:04] forward question, [100:06] am I happy? Yes, I am happy and I [100:08] honestly answered you that there are [100:09] certain things particularly the racism [100:12] assaults on me that do make me extremely [100:14] unhappy. [100:15] >> What else do I need to know about [100:18] the the possibility of an ancient [100:19] civilization that might inform how I [100:22] think about myself, my life and I guess [100:25] also our future. What I found so [100:26] fascinating is especially we're in a [100:28] moment of this AI revolution where [100:30] you've got these sort of big forces of [100:31] you've got nuclear weapons over here, [100:32] you've now got this advanced [100:33] intelligence, there's humanoid robots on [100:35] the horizon. [100:36] And if there was ever a moment where the [100:38] word you know existential is being used [100:41] in a in a way that is probably [100:42] appropriate, for me it feels like now. [100:44] >> Yeah, feels like now to me too. [100:47] This is a no doubt [100:50] our species is poised on the edge of an [100:52] abyss right now. [100:54] Our technology has outgrown our [100:56] mentality [100:58] and we're not [101:00] we're not in good shape to deal with the [101:02] times that lie ahead. I I [101:04] unfortunately the chances of a nuclear [101:07] exchange are just higher and higher and [101:09] that's just a realistic assessment of [101:10] the way the world is with this maniacal [101:12] leaders. So what could we learn from the [101:14] past that we I I I believe we can learn [101:16] that there's another way to live, that [101:18] we don't have to do it this way. [101:20] >> How do you know? [101:21] >> I I that's that's something I believe. [101:24] >> Okay, believe. [101:24] >> That's something I don't know. [101:26] >> Okay. [101:27] >> I guess I'm optimistic that human beings [101:29] have made it through [101:32] all these centuries, all these thousands [101:34] of years, all these hundreds of [101:36] thousands of years, that we've made it [101:38] through, we've made terrible mistakes, [101:40] done terrible things. I mean, look at [101:41] the Second World War. [101:44] God knows how many people were killed [101:45] there. 20 million Russians alone, if I [101:47] remember correctly. It's just horrific, [101:48] absolute horror. [101:50] It's on [101:52] When I was born in 1950, the Second [101:54] World War was only 5 years away and at [101:56] the end of it and it hung over us, you [101:58] know, you were our generation were aware [102:00] of that, but it seems to me [102:02] people today aren't aware of the horror [102:04] of global war in the way that they were [102:06] then and and and that adds to the [102:10] to the danger that we will immolate [102:13] ourselves. [102:14] I think a new approach to the nature of [102:16] reality is really vital. I think we we [102:18] need to begin to understand [102:20] consciousness better. [102:22] Uh and what I would wish for the human [102:24] species [102:27] is that we understand we are actually [102:28] all one. [102:30] Incredibly diverse, [102:32] full of creativity and differences, but [102:34] but all one and a mother in the middle [102:38] of sub-Saharan Africa and a mother in [102:40] New York City, they love their kids in [102:42] exactly the same way. [102:45] They hope for their kids in exactly the [102:46] same way. There's no difference between [102:48] them at all. [102:50] As long as we're as long as we're [102:51] indoctrinated into this notion of [102:54] divisive differences. I'm all in favor [102:56] of differences between human beings. [102:59] That's part of our creativity as our [103:01] species, but divisive differences, [103:04] that's what's going to kill us off. [103:06] Uh and that's I think the message that [103:08] comes down from the past, whether it's [103:10] correct message or not, the message is [103:14] we [103:15] a former civilization [103:17] made a terrible mistake and it resulted [103:22] in a cataclysm that brought us down. [103:25] I think we need to realize that can [103:26] happen again [103:27] and that we are [103:29] most likely to be the cause of that [103:31] cataclysm ourselves. [103:33] There may there may be a danger of [103:35] further comet impacts. The Younger Dryas [103:38] comet fragments, it's called the Taurid [103:40] meteor stream. The Earth passes through [103:42] it twice a year [103:44] in June and in October-November. [103:47] There are hundreds of deadly objects in [103:50] the Taurid meteor stream. It could [103:52] happen, but I think a much more likely [103:54] way that we're going to [103:56] bring our civilization [103:57] back almost to the Stone Age [104:01] is nuclear war. [104:03] We're going to do it to ourselves. [104:05] Unless we wake up, unless we [104:09] become more conscious of what it is to [104:11] be a human being, of the privilege and [104:12] the gift of being a human being, and how [104:15] that privilege and gift belongs to every [104:17] human being, not just to us. [104:20] Now, I don't know how that's going to be [104:21] done. I I I do think psychedelics can [104:24] play a role. [104:26] I've said many times, and I'll say it [104:27] again, if I if I had the power to do so, [104:30] I would insist that every world leader [104:33] has at least [104:34] at least a dozen sessions of ayahuasca [104:37] before they even apply for the job. [104:40] >> Because you believe that would give them [104:41] the same feeling of oneness that [104:43] >> I think most of them wouldn't apply for [104:44] the job at all. [104:45] >> Oh, really? [104:46] >> And those who did would would probably [104:48] do a much better job. [104:49] >> Hm. [104:50] >> Because they'd understand themselves [104:52] better. [104:54] >> Graham, what is the most important thing [104:55] we haven't discussed as it relates to [104:58] our past and what it might teach us or [105:01] you know, how it might inform how we [105:02] choose to live our lives today [105:04] and that we haven't discussed? [105:06] >> Look, the most important thing as far as [105:08] far as I'm concerned is independent [105:09] inquiry. [105:11] We need to start thinking for ourselves, [105:13] and that's true of the past and it's [105:14] true of everything else. [105:16] To the to the extent that I that I do [105:19] get positive feedback from young people, [105:21] and I do [105:22] a lot, that feedback is [105:25] thank you for being an example to [105:27] question everything. [105:28] >> Mhm. [105:29] >> It happens that what I'm questioning is [105:32] the past, but that can be a model for [105:35] questioning everything. I I feel that [105:39] that [105:41] very poor journalism [105:43] being used to smear my name because I [105:47] asked questions and because I asked them [105:49] vigorously [105:50] and because most important of all I [105:53] reached a large audience. [105:55] That's it, really. They won't smear [105:57] smear your name if you don't reach a [105:58] large audience. You're not worth their [106:00] trouble. [106:00] >> I know the feeling. [106:01] >> Yeah. [106:02] >> But I think you do. But you know, for me [106:04] my thing has always been that um [106:06] all it's done is made me clearer, like, [106:08] you know, you have a bigger platform, [106:09] more people um watching you, etc., and [106:11] talking about you. All it's done for me [106:13] is made me clearer on my principles and [106:16] what I believe. [106:17] >> Yeah. [106:17] >> And I'm actually really thankful for [106:18] that in a weird way. [106:19] >> Yeah. [106:19] >> Because you're forced to, you know, when [106:20] you hear so many things said about said [106:22] about you, written about you, whatever, [106:23] it does focus one's mind like, like, who [106:25] am I? [106:26] >> Yeah. [106:26] >> And what matters? What am I Where am I [106:28] uncompromising in terms of the [106:30] conversations I want to have, the way I [106:31] want to do it? And that's given me a [106:33] huge amount of clarity. And one of the [106:34] things that I'm really I really want to [106:36] make sure is that it doesn't make me um [106:39] bitter or resentful in any way. [106:42] >> And you can see how it happens. [106:43] >> Yeah, I can I can absolutely see how it [106:45] happens. [106:46] >> Cuz you you have to live with this with [106:47] with um [106:48] injustice potentially or being [106:51] mischaracterized or whatever, so [106:53] it's easy to see how one can slip off [106:54] into bitterness and resentment and to [106:56] >> That's a That's a big part of the work [106:57] I'm doing on myself at the moment. I I'm [107:01] confident that I am doing the right [107:03] thing with my life. I'm doing no harm to [107:05] anyone [107:06] and I'm putting ideas out there that are [107:08] worth thinking about. I'm confident of [107:10] that. I have no I have no doubts about [107:11] that. [107:12] >> And what will you care about on your on [107:14] your last day? [107:16] >> Most of all [107:17] the love of my family. [107:20] That's the most important thing to me. [107:22] And um [107:23] I don't know. The feeling that [107:28] I did my best. [107:29] I did the best I could to [107:32] carry out the task that uh fell upon me [107:36] quite by accident. I didn't I was a [107:38] current affairs journalist in the 1980s. [107:40] I had no idea I was going to go down [107:42] this rabbit hole into the ancient world. [107:44] It was a series of accidents that led to [107:47] it. But having gone down it, I feel very [107:50] very very committed to it. [107:52] >> It's interesting cuz well one of the [107:53] ways that I um I've always chosen to [107:55] conduct my interviews is just to um [107:57] touch people as I find them. I remember [107:59] once upon a time I had Brian Johnson [108:00] coming on my podcast and you know, he's [108:01] quite a he's a he has some radical [108:04] beliefs about living forever etc. He's [108:05] the longevity guy. [clears throat] And I [108:07] remember one of my team members walking [108:08] up to me beforehand and saying before he [108:10] had arrived and saying, "What do you [108:10] think of him?" And I remember saying, [108:12] "I've no idea. I've not met him yet." [108:13] >> Yeah. [108:14] >> And then I sat down with him, had this [108:15] interview, and he said this thing to me [108:16] at the end of the interview where he [108:17] goes, "Thank you." And I go, "What do [108:19] you mean?" He goes, "Thank you." [108:20] >> This is the first time I've done an [108:20] interview in my life where the [108:22] interviewer had like no preconceptions [108:23] of me. And he goes, "That meant that I [108:25] was relaxed and able to be myself and [108:27] blah blah blah." And I And I say that [108:28] because [108:30] my opinion of you is someone who is [108:33] really curious about about humanity and [108:36] has this interesting idea that is really [108:38] expansive for one's mind about what [108:40] could have happened. And um I again the [108:43] net benefit for me of that is just [108:46] expanding my mind in a way that makes me [108:49] empathetic to other people. [108:50] >> Yeah. [108:51] >> Makes me feel like me and you aren't [108:53] different. [108:54] >> Yeah. [108:54] >> Like I've not I've met you today, but [108:56] we're probably you know, we we we go [108:57] back a long way. Maybe consciously we're [108:59] the same, but [108:59] >> Mhm. [109:00] >> in our history and our lineage we are we [109:02] are one of the same. And um it also [109:05] gives me a huge amount of respect for [109:08] other living things including my [109:11] ancestors. [109:12] >> Mhm. [109:12] >> In a way that you kind of think of your [109:13] ancestors as these like monkeys that [109:14] lived in trees potentially. [109:16] But actually hearing some of these [109:17] stories makes me go, "Oh my gosh." And [109:19] actually it gives me a huge sense of [109:20] responsibility [109:22] to leave this planet and this earth in a [109:24] way that's going to be good for, [109:26] you know, the future the future kids [109:28] that will live 20,000 years from now in [109:29] the future and that will probably look [109:31] at our um fossil records and wonder. [109:33] >> I think I think those of us who have a a [109:35] platform do have a responsibility. [109:37] >> Mhm. [109:37] >> Very [clears throat] very definitely. I [109:39] mean, we're living in this strange new [109:40] world. This this this this this world [109:42] was inconceivable even in the beginning [109:44] of the 1990s. [109:45] >> Mhm. [109:46] >> This this [clears throat] this this [109:47] world of communication that we live in [109:49] now. And there's no doubt that that um [109:52] this is where influence [109:54] can be applied. And and [109:57] if that influence is [110:00] encouraging all that's good in the human [110:02] race, then that's really great. That's a [110:04] wonderful thing. And if it's encouraging [110:06] all that's dark and negative and cruel [110:08] and unkind and vicious in the human [110:10] race, cuz that's also out there on the [110:11] internet, then it's not so good. [110:14] >> We have a um [110:16] closing tradition on this show where the [110:17] last guest leaves the question for the [110:18] next, not knowing who they're leaving it [110:19] for. And the question left for you is, [110:22] is there a danger of us sleepwalking [110:24] into worshipping a machine god? [110:29] >> Do you want me to answer that question? [110:30] Yes, we're already worshipping a machine [110:32] god. As I said earlier in our [110:34] discussion, [110:36] uh in the minds of many, [110:38] science has already been elevated to [110:40] occupy the space that was once occupied [110:42] by religions. [110:45] That is a belief in a machine [110:47] fundamentally that's taking place there. [110:50] Science should be seen as a tool, one [110:52] amongst many tools that we as human [110:55] beings have at our disposal. It should [110:57] never be the only tool, and it should [111:00] never be worshipped. I don't ever want [111:02] to hear the words, "Trust the science." [111:06] The words for me are, "Investigate the [111:08] science. See whether it's right for you [111:11] or not. See what else is available in [111:14] the in the in the situation. Don't just [111:17] routinely, without thought, without [111:19] question, trust the science. Don't do [111:21] that. That's That's betraying science as [111:23] well. [111:24] One of fundamental ethics of science is [111:26] not to trust the science. It's to [111:28] question [111:29] and challenge the science. That's what [111:32] we should be doing with the science. And [111:33] yes, we are in danger of creating a kind [111:37] of [111:38] multi-dimensional machine which reaches [111:41] into all aspects of human consciousness [111:43] and and controls us, yeah. [111:46] We've got to stop worshipping science. [111:48] That's for sure. We've got to [111:50] put it in its rightful place as an [111:52] incredibly valuable tool which which can [111:55] do great things for human beings, but [111:57] which can also do terrible harm and [111:59] damage. [112:00] >> Because when we trust science, there's [112:01] something we stop listening to? [112:04] >> Well, when you put your trust in [112:06] anything, you better have good reason to [112:07] put your trust in it. [112:09] If I If I'm going to trust another human [112:11] being [112:12] with my life, I I really want to know [112:15] that I can trust that person. I'm I'm [112:16] not just going to say [112:18] Oh, you're a doctor, so I trust you. No, [112:20] it's not That's not enough. I want to [112:21] know more about that doctor. And uh in [112:25] in in indeed I have pursued that just [112:27] recently. [112:28] Science is great. Science is really [112:30] useful, but we're not [112:32] we're not being what we should be. We're [112:34] not [112:35] living up to the potential that the [112:37] universe gave us if we just go around [112:39] trusting everything all the time. We're [112:42] here to ask questions. That's what we [112:44] got these enormous brains for and this [112:46] incredible connectivity is to ask [112:48] questions. Anybody who says don't ask [112:51] questions is doing a great deal of harm. [112:53] >> Well, I hope my audience are very [112:55] curious. Um and I think they must be by [112:57] now if they're still hanging around on [112:58] this platform because we've had lots of [113:00] very curious conversations and hopefully [113:02] expansive. I We have this acronym DAC [113:05] obviously it for Darvo CEO, but also we [113:07] think of it as like [113:08] being for dreamers and open-minded [113:10] people, which is the O, and that the A [113:11] being about expanding awareness, and the [113:13] C really being about feeling more [113:14] connected. [113:15] >> Brilliant. [113:15] >> Like hearing your story and about your [113:17] your partner and your journey and your [113:18] parents all makes me all, you know, I [113:20] think if there's it makes us like [113:22] spiritually connected in a way that's [113:24] >> increasingly rare. If people want to [113:26] learn and read more from you, Graham, [113:28] where do they go? [113:29] >> Mhm. [113:29] >> I mean, you've written so many wonderful [113:30] books. You've got another one on the [113:31] way. [113:32] >> I have another [113:32] >> all of these books you've written and [113:34] the others that aren't here below. [113:35] >> Okay. Um um very briefly, the the [113:39] the book that put me on the map was [113:40] Fingerprints of the Gods. [113:42] >> Yeah. [113:42] >> And that's the book where I really [113:44] investigate begin to investigate the [113:46] possibility of a lost civilization. [113:48] Before that came The Sign and the Seal, [113:50] which was which was about Ethiopia's [113:53] claim to possess the lost Ark of the [113:55] Covenant. It happened that as a reporter [113:57] in the 1980s, I spent a lot of time in [113:59] Ethiopia, and I came across this [114:01] tradition, which is fundamental to [114:04] all religious life in Ethiopia. Uh and [114:07] and um ended up writing a book about it [114:09] that [114:10] put me on the track of a lost [114:11] civilization, led to Fingerprints of the [114:13] Gods. [114:14] Then, after Fingerprints of the Gods, [114:16] there's a book that's not here, which is [114:18] Keeper of Genesis, that I wrote with [114:19] Robert Bauval. Underworld. This was 7 [114:23] years of scuba diving that Santha and I [114:25] did all around the world following up [114:27] tips from local fishermen, local divers. [114:30] They'd seen something interesting, [114:32] something that looked man-made at a [114:34] depth of 30 m just offshore there, and [114:37] they would take us and we would find it. [114:39] Uh so, Underworld is about all those [114:41] flooded continental shelves, 27 million [114:45] square kilometers of continental shelf [114:47] were flooded at the end of the ice age. [114:49] That's 27 million square kilometers. [114:51] That's Europe and China and a bit more [114:53] combined. Uh were the best real estate [114:56] on Earth [114:57] uh 20,000 years ago and are all [114:59] underwater today. [115:00] >> And and there's signs that there was [115:01] life there. [115:02] >> Oh, yeah. Absolutely. Absolutely. [115:04] >> Civilizations though? [115:04] >> Yeah. Well, there Well, we found very [115:06] large structures underwater. [115:08] Um so, that's that's uh Underworld. [115:10] Then, after Underworld, I wrote [115:12] Supernatural, which is that one there. [115:15] Which has been reissued in America under [115:17] the title Visionary. And that's where I [115:20] went deep into the shamanistic [115:22] medicines, the the ayahuasca, [115:26] psilocybin, the and and the whole notion [115:29] that cave art, the art that we see in [115:32] the painted caves, [115:34] is [115:35] an art of visions. That this is shamans [115:38] who had entered deeply altered states of [115:40] consciousness. They'd remembered what [115:42] they'd seen. And when they came back to [115:44] the everyday state of consciousness, [115:45] they painted their visions in caves. [115:47] It's the best explanation for cave art [115:49] and why cave art is so similar all [115:51] around the world. And so similar to the [115:53] visions of ayahuasca shamans to this [115:55] day. [115:56] >> Graham, thank you so much for all that [115:57] you do. I I won't repeat every all the [115:59] reasons why, but you've you've blown my [116:00] mind open in a way that's just driven [116:02] curiosity. And I think that's maybe [116:05] the start of all inquiries deep [116:06] curiosity, and that's what you've done [116:07] for not just myself, but the hundreds of [116:09] millions of people that have watched you [116:10] over the years um all over the world. [116:12] And I hope long may it continue, and [116:14] good luck with your heart operation. And [116:16] hopefully we'll be back again to [116:17] continue this conversation soon. [116:18] >> Absolutely. Thank you very much. [116:20] >> it. Thank you so [116:20] >> Really good to be here. [116:21] >> Thank you so much. That was brilliant. 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