PASULKA: DEFENSE LABS CONCEAL NON-HUMAN TECH FROM ELECTED OFFICIALS

PowerfulJRE

Secret government programs use deception and psychological priming on engineers to accelerate the reverse-engineering of non-human technology before foreign adversaries.

AI-assisted summary of Joe Rogan Experience #2533 - Diana Pasulka — original source. Check the original for full context.

Source published: 2026-08-24

Detailed notes

## Background Published by PowerfulJRE on YouTube on July 30, 2026, this episode of the Joe Rogan Experience features religious studies professor Diana Pasulka. The page description introduces her as a professor at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and the author of several books, including her latest, The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny.

## TL;DR In this episode, Joe Rogan and Diana Pasulka explore the intersections of academic religious studies, unidentified anomalous phenomena, and secret government research programs. Pasulka shares insights into physical UAP materials, atomic layering, and the psychological engineering tactics used by defense programs to accelerate technological innovation. The conversation also delves into ancient texts like the Book of Enoch, historical and theological perspectives on contact protocols, and analyses of anomalous religious artifacts such as the Shroud of Turin and the Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe.

## Atmosphere & style The atmosphere is an intellectually charged, curious, and deeply speculative dialogue between a seasoned podcast host and an academic researcher venturing into unconventional territory. The tone swings comfortably between academic rigor, historical inquiry, and mind-bending speculative discussions on non-human intelligence and consciousness. Joe Rogan guides the conversation with eager fascination, while Pasulka maintains a grounded, reflective demeanor as she bridges her secular upbringing, academic background, and evolving personal faith.

## Key takeaways - [01:07:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4052s) Análisis de materiales físicos de posibles accidentes OVNI revelan aleaciones metálicas avanzadas con estructuración a nivel atómico imposibles de replicar con la tecnología terrestre actual. - [01:10:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4216s) Programas gubernamentales clasificados reclutan a científicos de élite a edades tempranas, operando en laboratorios secretos fuera del ámbito académico tradicional. - [01:14:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4466s) La justificación oficial para mantener la confidencialidad sobre los UAP radica en la seguridad nacional y la carrera por la ingeniería inversa frente a potencias extranjeras. - [01:33:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5616s) En proyectos de ingeniería inversa, los gestores emplean estrategias psicológicas diciendo a los ingenieros que la tecnología proviene de naciones rivales para evitar el escepticismo sobre su origen no humano. - [01:39:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5953s) El establecimiento de un precedente cognitivo de que un avance tecnológico ya ha sido resuelto acelera la capacidad de los científicos para superar barreras físicas percibidas. - [01:42:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6124s) Evaluaciones de riesgo durante administraciones pasadas postergaron la divulgación del fenómeno OVNI debido a la alta disrupción social y política proyectada. - [01:45:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6317s) La postura oficial del Vaticano sostiene que la existencia de vida extraterrestre no contradice la doctrina católica ni la fe en la creación divina. - [01:48:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6526s) Textos antiguos como el Libro de Enoc describen a los 'Vigilantes' impartiendo tecnologías avanzadas e hibridándose con humanos, lo cual puede interpretarse bajo una óptica moderna de ingeniería genética. - [02:10:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7813s) Diana Pasulka rechaza la práctica de protocolos de contacto como el CE-5 en defensa de la 'soberanía cognitiva', señalando paralelismos entre estos rituales y el folclore demoníaco. - [02:17:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8232s) Las evidencias en torno a artefactos reliquia como la Sábana de Turín y la Tilma de Guadalupe continúan alimentando debates académicos e investigaciones sobre su origen y autenticidad. - [02:34:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9269s) Existe una hipótesis de que la inteligencia biológica humana podría ser únicamente un paso evolutivo intermedio hacia la creación de inteligencias sintéticas o no biológicas.

## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1s) Travis Walton, Polygraph Tests, and the Diner Conversation with Bob Lazar

Joe Rogan and Diana Pasulka open the conversation by discussing the famous 1975 abduction case of Travis Walton, an Arizona logger who disappeared for five days after his crew saw him struck by a beam of light from a UFO. Rogan and Pasulka both express that they find Walton believable, pointing out that his core story has remained completely consistent over decades. They note that the fellow loggers who witnessed the incident—including one who actually got into a physical fight with Walton earlier that same day and disliked him—all stood by the story under oath and passed repeated polygraph examinations. While Walton's physical facts never change, Pasulka notes that his interpretation of the event has evolved over time; initially viewing the entities as terrifyingly hostile, he later considered whether the encounter might have had a deeper or spiritual dimension.

The conversation turns to a surreal bit of recent UFO media featuring Travis Walton and Area 51 whistleblower Bob Lazar sitting across from each other in a diner. The two iconic figures in ufology share pie while casually debating their respective theories on what the broader UFO phenomenon actually represents.

* The Travis Walton abduction took place in the mid-1970s while he was working as a logger in Arizona. * Walton's crew initially fled in fear when he was hit by the light beam, but when they turned around to rescue him, both Walton and the craft were gone. * Walton went missing for five days before reappearing with his account of being aboard an alien vessel. * Both Walton and his crew members have consistently passed lie detector tests across multiple decades.

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[02:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=161s) Government UFO Releases and JD Vance's "Demons" Comment

Pasulka shifts to current events in ufology, highlighting that the U.S. government has been actively releasing UFO files since May 2026—a move many disclosure advocates view as a historic step forward. She mentions watching JD Vance's recent appearance on Rogan's podcast, where Vance described UFO entities as "demons." Pasulka steps in with a playful disclaimer that she is speaking purely as a private individual and not on behalf of the University of North Carolina Wilmington. She argues that media headlines flattened Vance's remarks, whereas his actual explanation was far more nuanced and tied directly to Catholic theology.

Rogan expresses skepticism, stating he found Vance's defense of the "demonic" label unsatisfactory. As a religious studies professor and historian of Catholicism, Pasulka offers to elaborate on the theological framework Vance was drawing from. Having researched Catholic history her entire career and UFO experiences since 2012, she explains how centuries-old religious classifications are used to analyze anomalous aerial phenomena.

> "I must take this opportunity now to say that I am speaking on your podcast as a private individual and I don't represent my university talking about this."

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[04:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=277s) Catholic Theology, the Preternatural, and UFO Pattern Matching

Pasulka breaks down how Catholic theology classifies extraordinary or anomalous events into three distinct categories:

1. **Supernatural:** Divine acts or miracles directly from God that defy natural explanation (such as a terminal illness instantly disappearing after prayer). 2. **Natural:** Phenomena governed by the laws of nature, such as hurricanes or standard weather events. 3. **Preternatural:** Phenomena that lie outside normal natural laws but do not originate directly from God as divine miracles.

Developed during the medieval period by theologians like Thomas Aquinas, the concept of the *preternatural* accounts for non-divine, unseen forces—ranging from angelic interventions to fallen angels (demons). Pasulka explains that when Catholic thinkers encounter UFOs, they apply these historical categories to make sense of beings that appear and disappear at will, generate intense light, or communicate telepathically.

When Rogan asks why anyone would map modern UFO abductions onto "demons," Pasulka clarifies that while it doesn't prove the entities are literally biblical demons, there is an unmistakable "pattern match" between modern close encounters and historical reports of demonic activity. Both involve light anomalies, sudden materialization, telepathic intrusion, and the feeling of having thoughts forced into one's mind.

| Category | Theological Definition | Examples | | --- | --- | --- | | **Supernatural** | Direct divine intervention from God | Instantaneous miraculous healings | | **Natural** | standard physical forces and laws | Hurricanes, meteorology | | **Preternatural** | Anomalous phenomena beyond natural law, non-divine | Telepathy, materializing entities, light phenomena |

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[08:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=521s) Malevolent Intent, Skinwalker Ranch, and the "Hitchhiker Effect"

Rogan pushes back, arguing that popular perceptions of demons involve pure evil, possession, murder, and soul-stealing—intentions that do not match the high-tech, intellectually superior entities reported in typical UFO cases. Pasulka responds that her own view shifted significantly around 2016 after delving into darker field reports, such as those coming out of Skinwalker Ranch.

She recounts a conversation with Stanford scientist Dr. Garry Nolan from around 2013. Nolan declined to join research trips to Skinwalker Ranch due to the severe negative side effects experienced by researchers, specifically the **hitchhiker effect** (or hitchhiker syndrome), where scary, malevolent phenomena follow researchers and their families back to their personal homes.

Furthermore, Pasulka points to an interview Garry Nolan did with Tucker Carlson where Nolan—who has no religious affiliation—stated flatly that these entities "lie" and engage in deliberate deception. When Rogan asks for specific examples of entity deceit, Pasulka notes that across roughly a thousand witness accounts she has gathered, entities frequently convey prophetic visions. While one or two early predictions might come true to earn the person's trust, subsequent grand prophecies routinely fail, leading to public humiliation and psychological distress for the contactee.

* **Skinwalker Ranch:** A location in Utah famous for dense clusters of UFO sightings, anomalous light phenomena, and strange creatures. * **The Hitchhiker Effect:** A phenomenon where paranormal or anomalous activity attaches itself to an observer at a location and follows them back to their home. * **Entity Deception:** Garry Nolan and other researchers highlight that entities frequently deliver misleading or false information to contactees.

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[14:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=842s) Analyzing Telepathic Messages, Prophetic Dreams, and Mental Illness

Rogan raises a critical objection: could individuals claiming to receive false prophecies from UFO entities simply be suffering from mental illness or mistaking ordinary dreams for telepathic contact? He questions how anyone can distinguish a supposed alien prophecy received in a dream from a bizarre, mundane dream about being chased by Godzilla on a skateboard.

Pasulka acknowledges that mental illness must always be vetted and ruled out. However, she points out a cultural divide in how dreams are categorized. Modern Western society tends to group all dreams into a single bucket of random brain activity. In contrast, many ancient and non-Western cultures—such as the biblical traditions of Joseph or the Indigenous Martu people of Australia with their concept of the Dreamtime—developed sophisticated frameworks to differentiate between ordinary dreams, lucid states, and genuine visionary disclosures. While she agrees that many claims stem from ordinary dreams or psychological distress, she stresses that non-mentally-ill individuals like Travis Walton also report distinct, physical, and non-prophetic encounter events that defy standard medical explanations.

[17:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1040s) Deception, Dreams, and Demonic Frameworks

The discussion kicks off with Joe Rogan pressing Diana Pasulka on the exact mechanisms by which anomalous entities are said to deceive people. Pasulka explains that these entities frequently impart information about the future to abductees and contactees—information that is a erratic mix of truth and falsehood. When Rogan asks whether this communication occurs telepathically or through dreams and visions, Pasulka emphasizes that these modalities are fundamentally different. Rogan points out that if a revelation occurs inside a dream, it becomes nearly impossible to distinguish between a genuine entity interaction and a person's vivid imagination, leading to deep frustration for researchers trying to parse reality from fabrication.

Pasulka pivots back to her core thesis regarding why public figures like J.D. Vance frame these phenomena using the language of "demonic" forces. She stresses that Vance is drawing from a deeply rooted theological tradition rather than making a literal sci-fi claim. This ancient framework exists precisely to evaluate ambiguous, non-human encounters that carry spiritual or psychological weight. Pasulka admits she has zero desire to ever meet these beings herself based on the distressing accounts she has gathered, prompting Rogan to candidly express his own contrasting stance: "If they want to meet me, I'm down... I want to know. I'm not scared."

``` - Key debate: The difficulty of separating genuine entity communications from subconscious imagination or dreams. - Garry Nolan's stance: Reports from contactees contain verifiably false information given by entities, pointing to active deceit. - Theological categories: J.D. Vance's "demonic" framing functions as an ancient analytical system for assessing non-human interactions. - Preternatural realm: The possibility that these entities are neither extraterrestrial nor physical, but dimensional or ancient co-inhabitants. ```

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[22:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1336s) Disappearances and Danger: The Valentich Incident

While Rogan views potential encounters with curiosity, Pasulka points out that many reports from pilots and contactees carry a severe, ominous edge. To illustrate the real-world danger often associated with anomalous encounters, she references a famous aviation mystery involving a young Australian pilot who vanished after encountering an unidentified object. Young Jamie pulls up the historical details of the event, revealing the chilling timeline of the disappearance.

On October 21, 1978, 20-year-old pilot Frederick Valentich took off on a routine training flight over Bass Strait in a Cessna 182. At 7:06 p.m., he contacted Melbourne air traffic control to report a strange aircraft hovering above him with four bright lights and a long, metallic surface. Valentich reported that the craft was orbiting him at high speed and playing "some sort of game." As his engine began coughing and idling roughly, Valentich uttered his final words—"It's hovering and it's not an aircraft"—followed by 17 seconds of strange, metallic scraping noises before total radio silence. Neither Valentich nor his plane was ever found. While Rogan lightheartedly jokes that Valentich might just be "chilling" and learning the secrets of the universe in another dimension, Pasulka notes that off-the-record stories from modern military pilots paint a far grimmer picture.

``` - Pilot: 20-year-old Frederick Valentich (Cessna 182, October 21, 1978). - Air Traffic Control Contact: Steve Roby in Melbourne, Australia. - Reported details: Object with four bright green lights, long metallic hull, capable of impossible speeds and orbital maneuvers. - Final transmission: "That strange aircraft is hovering on top of me again... It's hovering and it's not an aircraft," followed by 17 seconds of metallic scraping audio. - Physical evidence: No debris, wreck, or human remains were ever recovered despite extensive searches. ```

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[27:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1621s) Close Encounters, Jacques Vallee, and the Super Spectrum

The conversation turns to how pop culture reflects these dark UFO traditions. Rogan brings up Steven Spielberg's classic *Close Encounters of the Third Kind*, noting how heavily it drew on real-world military folklore and actual researchers—most notably Jacques Vallee, who served as the direct inspiration for the French scientist character played by François Truffaut. Pasulka highlights that Vallee himself came to view the phenomenon as deeply deceptive, even titling one of his seminal works *Messengers of Deception*.

This leads into a discussion of researcher John Keel, the author of *The Mothman Prophecies*. Pasulka describes Keel as a complete "doomer" regarding alien contact. Keel formulated the concept of the "Super Spectrum"—a invisible, preternatural reality existing alongside human perception. According to Keel, all religious apparitions, ghosts, UFOs, and men in black emanate from this single, hostile realm. He believed that anyone unlucky enough to interface with the Super Spectrum was effectively "cursed," as these entities manipulate human belief systems to exert control.

``` - Pop culture link: François Truffaut's character in *Close Encounters of the Third Kind* was directly modeled on UFO researcher Jacques Vallee. - Vallee's core thesis: The phenomenon functions as a psychological "control mechanism" through deliberate deception (*Messengers of Deception*). - John Keel's "Super Spectrum": A theoretical frequency of reality populated by parahumans and preternatural entities that source all world religions, folklore, and UFO encounters. - Keel's conclusion: Entities in the Super Spectrum are universally malevolent, even when presenting themselves as benevolent figures like angels or religious apparitions. ```

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[31:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1861s) Human Senses, Travis Walton, and the Cold Coffee Interlude

Rogan reflects on the inherent limits of human biology, noting that our five senses only perceive a tiny sliver of physical reality. If interdimensional entities exist beyond this bandwidth, humanity is left in a state of perpetual speculation, forced to evaluate cases purely through the credibility and longevity of witnesses. As an example, Rogan brings up Travis Walton's famous 1975 abduction case. Rogan argues that Walton has told the exact same story for nearly 50 years without ever getting caught in a lie—an extraordinary track record if the experience were merely a hoax. Pasulka agrees, pointing out that in religious traditions, evaluating a claim over extended periods of time ("taking time") is a standard criterion for determining credibility.

Amidst this deep philosophical discussion, a humorous distraction occurs as Rogan takes a sip of his coffee and realizes it is bone-chillingly cold, despite Young Jamie insisting he boiled it twice. For a moment, Rogan jokingly blames the strange phenomenon on "aliens messing with Jamie's water." However, after a quick inspection, Jamie realizes it was simply human error: he had failed to press the main ignition button on the unit, causing it to shut down with a beep that he mistook for a brew cycle. With a freshly pressed, hot cup brought back to the table, the pair resume their discussion on evaluating anomalous witness claims.

``` - Sensory limitations: Human perception is constrained by basic biology, leaving us blind to subatomic or higher-dimensional fields. - Witness credibility case study: Travis Walton (Arizona, 1975). Rogan notes Walton's 50-year consistency as strong evidence against a hoax. - Evaluative criteria: Both religious institutions and anomalous researchers use time-tested witness consistency ("taking time") to judge non-human claims. - Lighthearted moment: The studio's coffee maker malfunction sparks a brief joke about alien tricksters before being resolved as user error. ```

Here is a detailed and faithful walkthrough covering this portion of the conversation:

[33:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2035s) Bob Lazar, S4, and the Case for Discerning Credibility

Joe Rogan and Diana Pasulka reflect on the polarizing narrative surrounding Bob Lazar and how observers evaluate accounts of recovered alien technology. Rogan, having spent considerable time with Lazar—sharing dinners and reviewing early cuts of his documentary alongside filmmaker Jeremy Corbell—expresses strong confidence in Lazar’s authenticity. Rogan points out that despite meeting many dishonest figures with hidden agendas, Lazar strikes him as deeply knowledgeable in physics, particle mechanics, and advanced technology. Furthermore, Lazar demonstrated precise knowledge of the secret S4 location and Los Alamos National Laboratory operations long before they were public, eventually being verified on an official employee roster despite initial government denials. Rogan argues that if Lazar’s claims are true, it implies a rogue government group is withholding paradigm-shifting truths from humanity, which Rogan deems a "crime against humanity."

Pasulka offers a nuanced perspective, bringing up insights from figures in her research network like "Tyler" (from her book *American Cosmic*) and physicist Dr. Eric Davis. While Davis remains skeptical of Lazar, Tyler assured Pasulka that Lazar’s core account is genuine. Pasulka raises a counter-scenario: what if the government deliberately manufactured or allowed these leaks to obscure native technological projects? Rogan counters this by noting that S4 officials explicitly asked Lazar to reverse-engineer how the craft worked rather than modify an existing American vehicle, pointing toward an exotic, non-human origin. Pasulka stresses that researchers in her field must constantly maintain a sharp "BS meter" to filter out deliberate intelligence disinformation campaigns.

- Lazar accurately identified the location of the S4 facility and the JANET flights long before public awareness. - Government agencies initially denied Lazar worked at Los Alamos, but his name was later found on an official employee directory. - Navy footage released post-2017 corroborated the exact flight orientations and physics Lazar described in 1989. - Pasulka emphasizes the active tension between intelligence and counter-intelligence operations in the UFO domain.

[40:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2450s) Disinformation Tactics: Project Beta, Paul Bennewitz, and Richard Doty

The conversation turns to historical campaigns where government agents intentionally fed falsified extraterrestrial narratives to researchers and citizens. Pasulka brings up the case of Paul Bennewitz, an entrepreneur who believed he was intercepting alien communications and uncovered a secret underground facility at Dulce, New Mexico. Pasulka and Rogan discuss how military intelligence, specifically Air Force Office of Special Investigations (AFOSI) agent Richard Doty, targeted Bennewitz by covertly placing fabricated documents directly onto his computer to ruin his credibility and drive him to psychiatric breakdown.

While some official sources claimed the Bennewitz operation was designed to cover up radiation testing on cattle from 1967's Project Gasbuggy atomic blast, Rogan points out that cattle mutilations have continued long past that era, making the official explanation incomplete. Pasulka explains that figures like Richard Doty are famous within ufology for knowingly spreading deception to hide real projects inside a "circle of confusion." By mixing genuine anomalous phenomena with absurd, easily debunked stories, counter-intelligence operatives effectively render the entire topic ridiculous in the eyes of the mainstream public.

- **Project Gasbuggy:** A 1967 underground nuclear detonation in New Mexico, 21 miles southwest of Dulce, later cited in official narratives regarding local radiation testing. - **Richard Doty:** A former AFOSI agent known for orchestrating disinformation campaigns targeting UFO researchers. - **"Circle of Confusion":** An intelligence strategy cited by Pasulka's contact Tyler, where real secrets are intentionally shrouded in wild fabrications so the public dismisses both.

[45:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2741s) Pre-Industrial Historical Records and AI as an Interface

Frustrated by modern intelligence manipulation, Pasulka describes how veteran researcher Jacques Vallée eventually abandoned contemporary ufology to study historical records prior to the Industrial Revolution. In his book *Wonders in the Sky*, Vallée analyzed aerial anomalies documented before 1860, avoiding the noise of modern military disinfo. Pasulka adopted a similar methodology: while researching her doctorate on Catholic beliefs about purgatory and angel contact events, she spent a decade reviewing non-digitized physical archives. She consistently found historical accounts of strange aerial phenomena and harassing glowing orbs, which pre-modern witnesses interpreted as souls in purgatory or demonic entities.

Rogan observes that while human technology has advanced exponentially from the 1800s to today, the fundamental characteristics of reported UFO encounters have remained remarkably consistent. This prompts Pasulka to explore whether non-human intelligences might be limited in how they can interact with us. She proposes that historical religion may have served as a crude conceptual framework or "technology" for humans to interface with non-human intelligences. As humanity evolves, Pasulka suggests that Artificial Intelligence may become the primary medium through which these entities can communicate with us in a structured, non-threatening manner.

- "Have they never been to an archive? An archive is a really old library. There's a bunch of stuff there that's not digitized and that's still human knowledge." - Historical witnesses often framed mysterious aerial orbs as spirits needing prayers to transition out of purgatory. - Pasulka suggests AI could serve as the modern equivalent of ancient religious frameworks for interfacing with non-human intelligence.

[50:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3054s) AI as a Perceptual Bridge for Higher Contact

Diana Pasulka explores the idea that human religious practices—such as prayer—have always been attempts to establish contact with non-human intelligences. Because human evolutionary perception is inherently constrained, we cannot perceive the full spectrum of reality. Pasulka speculates that artificial intelligence might not merely be a tool, but an evolving perceptual faculty—a technological interface that bridges the gap between human sensory limitations and non-human entities.

When consulting prominent figures in the UAP space, such as Lue Elizondo, Hal Puthoff, and "Tyler" (Tim Taylor), Pasulka was repeatedly directed to science fiction literature to understand the true nature of the phenomenon. These texts consistently emphasize technology as the necessary intermediary to enable human-non-human interaction.

- **Key Figures Cited:** Lue Elizondo, Hal Puthoff, and Tim Taylor ("Tyler"). - **Core Premise:** AI could serve as an evolved perceptual bridge allowing humans to communicate with non-human intelligences. - **Science Fiction's Role:** Insiders use sci-fi literature as a reference point for describing human-technology-non-human interfaces.

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[52:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3164s) Governmental Secrecy and Warnings to Stop Writing

Addressing why the government refuses to fully disclose UAP information, Pasulka offers her personal opinion: the phenomenon exists entirely "above government," meaning it is not theirs to disclose. She suggests the topic is governed by an deeply entrenched, highly compartmentalized group operating outside typical governmental frameworks, where traditional leaders and short-term politicians are never fully read in.

Following the 2019 publication of her book *American Cosmic*, Pasulka was approached by figures within the intelligence community. They quietly discouraged her from continuing her UAP research, suggesting her time would be better spent focusing strictly on traditional Catholic history and religious studies.

- **Nature of Disclosure:** UAP intelligence is too deeply compartmentalized and held outside standard state control for standard government figures to reveal. - **"Short-Timers":** U.S. Presidents and elected officials are frequently omitted from deep access due to their limited tenure. - **Direct Warnings:** Intelligence-linked individuals urged Pasulka to abandon UAP research and return to mainstream Catholic scholarship.

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[57:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3431s) Amnesty, Slush Funds, and Financial Fraud

Joe Rogan raises a critical, cynical perspective on the UAP disclosure movement, particularly referencing the documentary *The Age of Disclosure* and statements made by whistleblowers like David Grusch. Rogan argues that calls for legal amnesty for intelligence officials may not stem solely from a desire to reveal alien technology, but from a need to cover up decades of severe financial crimes, misappropriation of funds, and lying to Congress.

Without congressional oversight or public auditing, black-budget programs inherently breed massive waste and fraud. Rogan notes that absolute power and unmonitored billions create ideal conditions for personal enrichment, offshore accounts, and corruption among defense contractors and program directors.

> "Absolute power corrupts. Absolutely. What's more absolute power than you're... in the super secret top secret group... going into these fucking vaults in the middle of the mountain looking at an alien spacecraft?"

- **Financial Crimes:** Potential motives for hiding programs include decades of unauthorized spending, lying to Congress, and direct fraud. - **David Grusch's Testimony:** Grusch explicitly highlighted "fraud, waste, and abuse," estimating hidden UAP slush funds to amount to billions of dollars annually. - **Pentagon Response:** AARO (All-domain Anomaly Resolution Office) and the Pentagon maintain there is no verified evidence of non-human technology or secret reverse-engineering programs. - **Administrative Actions:** Executive policy adjustments have permitted former personnel to report UAP details to AARO or oversight committees without violating Non-Disclosure Agreements (NDAs), though this does not shield against criminal financial liability.

Here is a detailed, faithful walkthrough of Part 5 of the transcript.

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[01:07:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4052s) Physical Evidence, Atomic Layering, and Secret Government Labs

Joe Rogan and Diana Pasulka begin by discussing the physical nature of UFO/UAP evidence, emphasizing that it goes beyond mere historical accounts or sightings. Rogan notes that for listeners who might be entirely new to the topic, it is crucial to understand the work of scientists like Garry Nolan. When analyzing materials recovered from alleged crash sites, researchers have uncovered sophisticated metal alloys that cannot be replicated using known terrestrial manufacturing methods. Pasulka adds that these materials often exhibit strange characteristics, such as being artificially layered at an atomic level.

Pasulka emphasizes that she strives to maintain total autonomy from both mainstream UFO tropes and government-sponsored narratives. Addressing common online skepticism that researchers in her sphere are government proxies, she states flatly, "None of my stuff is government sponsored." She explains that she operates without a publicist or institutional backing, following the evidence independently since beginning her research around 2012.

Recalling an experience from around 2014, Pasulka describes coming to realize that highly specialized, ultra-secret government-associated laboratories exist that are entirely closed off to the public and traditional academia. She points out that the personnel working inside these classified labs—such as top-tier laser specialists—are far superior in expertise to anyone at premier Ivy League or research universities like Yale, Harvard, or Stanford. She mentions having firsthand knowledge of this because these programs attempted to cultivate Garry Nolan to see if his scientific expertise could help decode the anomalous physical materials.

- **Atomic-level layering:** Physical samples recovered from crash sites feature unique isotopic ratios and engineered atomic layering that currently cannot be manufactured on Earth. - **Independence from state narrative:** Pasulka confirms she receives no government funding, works without a PR team, and maintains total research autonomy. - **Elite covert facilities:** Highly secret government labs operate outside the academic system, employing scientists whose technical capabilities exceed those at top institutions like Harvard and Stanford.

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[01:10:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4216s) Early Recruitment of Elite Scientists and Hidden Programs

Pasulka discusses how secret government programs actively recruit top scientific talent away from public visibility. She cites the example of Harald Malmgren, a scholar who was recruited as a young physicist at Cornell at age 27 and went on to serve as a high-level military advisor to multiple U.S. presidents. She explains that young scientists taken into these programs are granted high-level security clearances and often given fake, mundane job titles to obscure their actual work. Pasulka dismisses online skeptics who claim certain individuals lack security clearances based on their public job listings, arguing that the government is exceptionally skilled at concealing such roles.

Rogan asks whether these programs actively scout and recruit exceptionally gifted university physics students as early as possible before they become involved in commercial ventures or private enterprise. Pasulka agrees, noting that recruiting someone at age 27 is actually considered late by their standards. She highlights a chapter in her book *Encounters* titled "Children of the Invisibles," where she speculates on these clandestine recruitment pipelines.

Rogan brings up a theory put forward by Weinstein regarding a specific university in upstate New York that maintains an abnormally overqualified physics department. Weinstein noted that despite having world-class talent, these physicists publish virtually no standard academic research. Furthermore, the university is closely tied to an extraordinarily lucrative hedge fund generating numbers that mirror Bernie Madoff-style returns. Rogan and Pasulka note that this setup would provide a perfect cover and funding funnel to quietly finance top-secret research without academic or public oversight. Jamie clarifies that the institution and fund in question are Stony Brook University and Renaissance Technologies. Pasulka jokes that at her own university, faculty members would be fired immediately if they failed to publish research.

> "How do you know? Like, seriously, how do you know that? Because the government is really good at hiding these kinds of things." — **Diana Pasulka**

- **Harald Malmgren:** Recruited from Cornell at 27; served as a senior military and economic advisor to several U.S. presidents while possessing top-tier clearances. - **Covert job titles:** Government programs frequently assign decoy job titles to top-secret researchers to mask their clearance levels from public scrutiny. - **Stony Brook and Renaissance Technologies:** Mentioned as an example brought up by Eric Weinstein where high-level physics talent and massive financial flows intersect without traditional academic output.

---

[01:14:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4466s) Covert Operatives, Spacetime Folding, and National Security

Rogan shares an anecdote about a former university professor he knows who simultaneously served as a covert CIA operative. The man would be engaged in active gunfights overseas on secret operations, extracted by team transport, and then a week later be casually teaching undergraduate classes on campus—describing him as "Indiana Jones on steroids." Rogan posits that universities could easily serve as a front where elite physicists carry out secret work on revolutionary propulsion systems while posing as professors.

The conversation shifts to the motives behind military secrecy and the national defense argument. Rogan and Pasulka discuss whether the public should be angry about classified reverse-engineering programs. Pasulka explains that officials she met after publishing *American Cosmic* appealed to national security and moral duty. They argued that keeping advanced technology secret prevents hostile foreign adversaries—like China, Russia, or Iran—from obtaining it first. Pasulka admits that if these officials are genuinely acting in good faith to protect the country, their reasoning is difficult to argue against.

Rogan points out a terrifying potential military application of UAP technology: instantaneous nuclear weapon delivery. Rather than relying on traditional intercontinental ballistic missiles that take time to fly across the globe, a system utilizing space-folding propulsion could instantaneously teleport a nuclear warhead inside foreign air space or directly over target cities like Beijing or Moscow. While Rogan laments that humans immediately look for ways to turn extraterrestrial travel technology into a weapon, he acknowledges that the defense establishment has a fundamental duty to develop these capabilities before hostile foreign nations do.

- **Dual-role academics:** Rogan recounts knowing a CIA operative who balanced active combat operations with teaching university courses. - **Instantaneous strike capability:** Advanced space-folding technology could theoretically eliminate missile flight time, allowing immediate delivery and detonation of nuclear weapons anywhere on Earth. - **The secrecy justification:** Government officials justify withholding UAP technological breakthroughs on the grounds that releasing details publicly would allow non-ally nations like China or Russia to reverse-engineer them first.

---

[01:18:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4733s) Roswell, Reverse-Engineered Tech, and Historical Aviation Anomalies

Rogan details the historical lore surrounding the 1947 Roswell UFO crash, noting allegations that recovered debris and bodies were flown to Wright Field (later Wright-Patterson Air Force Base) in two separate aircraft to ensure the payload survived if one plane crashed. According to legend, President Harry Truman met the transport team there to inspect the craft and material. Rogan highlights that numerous independent witnesses at the crash site provided strikingly consistent accounts, and that the decades following 1947 saw the rapid emergence of revolutionary technologies like fiber optics and transistors, whose official origin stories remain unusually murky.

Pasulka and Rogan examine the timeline of human aviation compared to observed UAP capabilities. Rogan notes that Bob Lazar described the craft he worked on as appearing seamlessly 3D-printed—a manufacturing concept unheard of in 1989. Tracing back further to 1947, humanity was predominantly flying propeller aircraft, making it impossible that advanced craft seen back then were terrestrial. He references the 2004 Nimitz "Tic Tac" UAP, which dropped on radar from 50,000 feet down to sea level in under a second, as clear evidence of technology far beyond human reach.

Addressing Kenneth Arnold's famous 1947 sighting over Mount Rainier, Rogan notes that Arnold saw objects moving at speeds far outstripping his own propeller aircraft. However, Pasulka points out that drawing direct conclusions from aircraft shapes can be tricky. Jamie pulls up images showing early aviation designs, including the German Horten Ho 229 flying wing and experimental circular aircraft from the 1940s. While turbojet engines existed as early as 1941, Rogan maintains that the extreme speeds and maneuvers recorded in key UAP events remain fundamentally unexplainable by conventional jet tech from that era.

- **Roswell Transport Protocol:** Lore states recovered material from the 1947 crash was split between two separate flights to Wright Field to hedge against a plane crash. - **Post-1947 tech leaps:** Technologies such as fiber optics and transistors emerged shortly after 1947 with disputed or unusual development histories. - **Nimitz "Tic Tac" capability:** Radar tracked the object dropping from 50,000 feet to sea level in less than a second during the 2004 encounters. - **Early Jet Era:** The first turbojet engine aircraft flew in 1941, and experimental German flying wings resembled some early saucer-like reports, though their performance capabilities were far inferior to observed UAP behavior.

[01:23:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5018s) Early Advanced Aircraft and the Kenneth Arnold Sighting

Joe Rogan and Diana Pasulka examine photos of historical experimental aircraft, looking specifically at German prototypes from the World War II era. Rogan expresses skepticism toward the idea that during the late 1940s—when standard military aviation still relied heavily on propeller-driven planes—secret programs had already built craft capable of flying several thousand miles per hour with no visible propulsion systems. Pasulka points out that historical records show advanced designs did exist, gesturing to images of the Horten Ho 229, a German jet-powered flying wing prototype from 1945.

Looking at the sleek, tailless profile of the Horten Ho 229, Pasulka emphasizes how remarkably it resembles the crescent-like shape described by pilot Kenneth Arnold during his seminal 1947 sighting over Mount Rainier. Arnold reported seeing nine shiny objects flying in formation at speeds he estimated at over 1,200 miles per hour, skipping across the sky like saucers skipped across water. When looking at the Ho 229's reported top speed of roughly 600 mph, Pasulka posits that American intelligence may have acquired and tested this captured Nazi technology after the war under Operation Paperclip.

Rogan acknowledges the striking physical similarity between the Horten Ho 229 mockup and Arnold's description, but points out that simple craft misidentification fails to capture the full scope of what happened to Arnold. Pasulka agrees, noting that following his initial sighting, Arnold experienced bizarre anomalous phenomena, including encounters with "men in black" figures and intense paranormal events that he framed through a spiritual or religious lens.

- **Horten Ho 229**: German prototype jet-powered flying wing designed by the Horten brothers in 1945, capable of speeds exceeding 500–600 mph. - **Operation Paperclip**: The secret U.S. intelligence program that brought over 1,600 German scientists, engineers, and technicians to North America following WWII. - **Kenneth Arnold Sighting**: Took place on June 24, 1947, near Mount Rainier, Washington; coined the popular term "flying saucer."

---

[01:28:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5298s) Stealth Technology, Unidentified Phenomena, and Leaked Documents

The conversation turns to modern stealth aircraft and the psychological shock of witnessing advanced aerospace technology in person. Rogan recalls an incident shortly after September 11, 2001, while filming *Fear Factor* near an Air Force base in Southern California (likely Edwards AFB). The crew paused production in awe as a B-2 Spirit stealth bomber glided silently overhead. Rogan notes that seeing a secret or ultra-advanced craft in the sky naturally makes an observer feel as if it is "from another planet" or driven by "Darth Vader."

Rogan argues that while secret military craft explain many sightings, they fail to explain extreme performance anomalous objects like the "Tic Tac" UAP spotted by U.S. Navy aviators off the coast of California in 2004. He notes that the sudden acceleration, sharp right-angle turns, and absence of thermal control surfaces demonstrated by the Tic Tac would subject any human pilot or physical airframe to crushing G-forces that would instantly turn a human "into jello" and destroy known terrestrial materials.

Podcast producer Young Jamie brings up a document that circulated widely online claiming to be a leaked Lockheed Martin / CIA flight manual for a craft designated the "CL-957 Gen 2 Tic Tac." Jamie uses Perplexity AI to cross-reference the claim, revealing that aviation analysts and FOIA researchers consider the document an unambiguous hoax. The document featured inconsistent classification markings, incorrect Lockheed designation formats, and historical anachronisms.

- **B-2 Stealth Bomber Sighting**: Rogan describes the unsettling visual impact of seeing a stealth bomber at low altitude, emphasizing how black budget aviation outpaces public awareness by decades. - **Tic Tac UAP (2004)**: Encountered by USS *Nimitz* pilots; displayed instantaneous acceleration, no visible control surfaces or exhaust plume, and speed defying conventional flight mechanics. - **Leaked "CL-957" Document**: Debunked manual circulating on social media; lacked official provenance in the CIA CREST database, National Archives, or The Black Vault archives.

---

[01:33:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5616s) Reverse Engineering, Psychological Motivation, and Belief Construction

Pasulka pivots to the structural mechanics of black-budget reverse engineering and how defense programs manage high-level technological innovation. She relays accounts told to her by aerospace figures, including her contact "Tyler" (a pseudonym for entrepreneur Tim Taylor) and physicist Dr. Hal Puthoff during the inaugural Sol Foundation conference.

According to these accounts, program managers faced with analyzing mysterious or anomalous materials often withhold the true nature of the debris from their engineering teams. Instead of telling engineers that a piece of wreckage is extraterrestrial or anomalous, managers lie and present it as captured technology from a geopolitical adversary like China or Russia. This white lie leverages national security urgency to motivate engineers, while breaking psychological barriers by convincing them that the engineering feat has *already* been accomplished by someone else.

Pasulka compares this cognitive mechanism to breaking the four-minute mile: once people believe a feat is physically possible because someone else achieved it, human performance rapidly scales to match it. She reflects on being invited by government officials to present her research on *American Cosmic* to interagency scientists, suspecting that her presentations served a similar purpose—seeding ideas into the minds of scientists to push the boundaries of what they believed possible.

- **Psychological Priming in R&D**: Telling researchers a breakthrough already exists in an enemy lab removes cognitive disbelief, driving faster engineering breakthroughs. - **The Four-Minute Mile Analogy**: Referring to Roger Bannister's 1954 barrier-breaking run, illustrating how mental belief precedes physical or technological execution. - **Dr. Hal Puthoff & Sol Foundation**: Physics researcher involved in U.S. government anomalous phenomena studies and remote viewing research (Stargate Project).

---

[01:38:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5913s) Perception Management and Silent Psychological Operations

Closing the discussion on strategic information control, Pasulka discusses how advanced forms of state propaganda go beyond conventional media campaigns or overt political speeches. She notes that the most effective psychological techniques involve embedding specific images, narratives, and mental constructs directly into public culture to passively shape human behavior and societal consensus.

She draws a line between these concepts and the theories outlined in Milton William "Bill" Cooper's 1991 book *Behold a Pale Horse*. Specifically, she cites the infamous text referenced in Cooper's work regarding "Quiet Weapons for Quiet Wars," which details methods of automated social engineering, information control, and economic warfare designed to manufacture consent and guide public perception without the population realizing they are being manipulated.

- **Bill Cooper's *Behold a Pale Horse***: Influential underground book published in 1991 detailing conspiracy theories, secret government programs, and covert psychological warfare. - **Engineering Consent**: The strategic manipulation of public perception, cultural symbols, and technological narratives to control group behavior and belief systems without physical force.

[01:39:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5953s) Psychological Manipulation, Belief, and Technological Innovation

The conversation opens with a discussion on how public consent and societal narratives can be engineered. Drawing parallels to concept frameworks like "quiet weapons" or propaganda systems, the speakers explore how media shapes collective belief. Rogan references Arthur C. Clarke's science fiction work *Childhood's End*, where an alien intelligence subtly directs human evolution and societal development through technology and social structures. Pasulka notes that whether labeled as propaganda or narrative control, these mechanisms can act as double-edged swords—functioning either as coercive psychological weapons or as catalysts for constructive human advancement.

Pasulka illustrates the constructive power of psychological framing by recalling her experience as a college cross country and track athlete. Her coaches employed sports psychology, instructing runners to visualize victory and routinely assuring them that specific fast times had already been achieved by others. By convincing athletes that a target benchmark was achievable and within reach, the coaches successfully removed mental barriers. Pasulka and Rogan agree that this exact psychological dynamic governs technological innovation: before a breakthrough occurs, engineers and scientists must genuinely believe that the target objective is physically possible or has already been accomplished somewhere else.

This principle extends to esoteric concepts of physics and reality discussed by researchers like "Tyler" (Tim Taylor). Rogan notes that when individuals are convinced a feat has already been accomplished—such as zero-point energy or field propulsion—it alters their problem-solving pathway by removing subconscious cognitive blocks. They speculate that mainstream silence surrounding exotic phenomena might not merely be about secret-keeping, but could represent a deliberate form of narrative control designed to prevent the public from focusing on transformative paradigms.

- **Arthur C. Clarke's *Childhood's End*:** Cited as a classic narrative depiction of non-human intelligence subtly manipulating human culture and development through technological and psychological channels. - **Athletic Mindset Parallels:** Pasulka's collegiate running experience demonstrated that visual outcome training and establishing pre-existing precedent directly eliminated mental performance ceilings. - **Cognitive Precedent in Tech:** Establishing that a technological goal "has already been solved" acts as a catalyst for breaking past perceived engineering limits.

[01:42:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6124s) Military Capability, Disclosure Risk, and the Hal Puthoff Story

Rogan questions why—if advanced exotic propulsion or non-human tech exists—it has not been prominently deployed in major foreign wars like Iraq or Afghanistan. However, he contrasts this with reports of exotic non-lethal capabilities, such as advanced acoustic/sound weapons allegedly utilized in Venezuela to incapacitate combatants during covert operations. Such real-world deployments demonstrate that military entities maintain technologies that exceed public understanding of physics and tactical capability.

Rogan shares a notable story told by physicist Hal Puthoff regarding a high-level briefing during the George W. Bush administration. Puthoff and a panel of scientists and thought leaders were convened by government officials who claimed they were considering full public disclosure of non-human craft and biological remains. The panel was asked to perform a quantitative risk assessment, assigning numerical values to the positive and negative societal impacts across economy, governance, religion, and social stability. The panel's unanimous conclusion was that the negative disruptions far outweighed any immediate benefits, prompting officials to indefinitely shelf the disclosure initiative.

While Pasulka maintains that human society is ultimately pragmatic enough to adapt and sustain economic function following disclosure, Rogan argues that the immediate fallout would be destabilizing. Unveiling a superior non-human intelligence that neutralizes defense systems or monitors human thought would severely undermine global economic trust and the authority of democratic governance. Rogan invokes Ronald Reagan's famous United Nations speech, which posited that humanity would quickly set aside its geopolitical conflicts if faced with an overarching extraterrestrial presence.

- **Acoustic Weaponry in Venezuela:** Cited as a concrete example of advanced, non-lethal military technology operating outside standard public awareness. - **Hal Puthoff's Bush Admin Panel:** A secret government panel evaluated UFO/biological disclosure using a numerical matrix; the metric showed high societal disruption, resulting in a decision against disclosure. - **Reagan UN Address:** Ronald Reagan's 1987 speech to the UN General Assembly noted how an external alien threat would instantly unify competing Earth nations.

[01:45:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6317s) Public Perception, J.D. Vance, and Non-Human Intelligences

Addressing the societal impact of potential disclosure, Pasulka argues that the public is far more resilient than government officials assume. Over 80% of Americans already maintain a belief in God, which inherently represents a belief in a supreme non-human intelligence. Furthermore, major religious institutions like the Vatican have explicitly acknowledged that extraterrestrial life would not contradict doctrine, as God could create life across the cosmos. Pasulka points out that in countries like Brazil, the concept of non-human entities interacting with Earth is widely integrated into everyday culture without causing societal breakdown.

Rogan brings up his interview with Vice President-elect J.D. Vance, who casually remarked on the podcast that he viewed UFOs as "demons" and admitted he was too busy with political duties to investigate the topic deeply. Rogan expresses frustration at this stance, stating that if he ever occupied the Vice Presidency, his absolute first priority would be demanding full clearance to inspect classified UFO files and physical assets. Understanding whether humanity represents the apex intelligence on Earth is, in Rogan's view, the foundational question governing all political and strategic planning.

Pasulka counters that Rogan's intense focus puts him in a minority, asserting that most everyday people would not suffer existential shock from disclosure. Rogan maintains that definitive, empirical proof of an interdimensional or extraterrestrial entity capable of disabling nuclear weapon silos fundamentally alters human history. Pasulka highlights that framing these entities as benevolent or controlling stewards over human warfare is itself a modern continuation of classical religious worldviews.

- **Vatican Theological Position:** Official Catholic commentary acknowledges that extraterrestrial intelligence would be part of God's creation, mitigating religious panic. - **J.D. Vance Interview Reference:** Vance described UFO phenomena through a traditional theological lens as "demons" and stated political workloads left little time for deep investigation. - **Nuclear Silo Interference:** Unexplained crafts historically deactivating or interfering with active nuclear warhead installations serve as evidence of high-level technological oversight.

[01:48:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6526s) The Book of Enoch, The Watchers, and Ancient Genetic Engineering

The conversation shifts toward ancient apocryphal texts, specifically *The Book of Enoch*, which Rogan notes was recommended to him by Congresswoman Anna Paulina Luna. Having listened to the audiobook multiple times, Rogan finds its contents extraordinary. The text details "The Watchers"—angelic beings who descended to Earth, mated with human women ("the daughters of men"), and fathered a hybrid race known as the Nephilim or giants, while imparting advanced metallurgical, astronomical, and cosmetic knowledge to early humanity.

Pasulka explains that while *The Book of Enoch* was excluded from the canon of Western Roman Catholicism and Protestantism, its supernatural cosmology remains deeply embedded in Christian theology. In fact, over half of practicing Christians hold a worldview consistent with *Enoch*'s description of fallen angels and watchers. The text remains fully canonical in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church, one of the world's oldest continuous Christian traditions. The speakers discuss how ancient linguistic nuances, Hebrew gematria (where letters double as numeric values), and centuries of translation through Greek and Latin often obscured the original context of these accounts.

Rogan suggests that when stripped of archaic religious phrasing, the narrative of Watchers interbreeding with humans and altering civilization sounds strikingly like an ancient, primitive description of high-tech genetic manipulation. Pasulka agrees that this supernatural worldview persisted long into early Church history, pointing out that the Apostle Paul's instruction in the New Testament regarding women wearing veils in church was directly tied to beliefs about angelic presence and boundary preservation.

- **Anna Paulina Luna:** The U.S. Representative who introduced Joe Rogan to *The Book of Enoch*. - **The Watchers & Nephilim:** Enochian entities described as descending to Earth, interbreeding with human women, and teaching taboo technology, producing giant hybrid offspring. - **Ethiopian Orthodox Canon:** Unlike Western biblical canons, the Ethiopian Bible preserves *The Book of Enoch* as fully canonical scripture. - **Ancient Hebrew Gematria:** Ancient Hebrew letters double as numerical values, embedding multi-layered coded meanings into textual passages. - **Genetic Manipulation Interpretation:** Rogan posits that ancient descriptions of divine-human hybridization reflect primitive observations of genetic engineering.

[01:54:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6854s) Early Christian Traditions and the Watchers

Joe Rogan and Diana Pasulka discuss the origins of long-standing religious customs, focusing on the early Christian practice of women wearing veils in church. Pasulka explains that in the New Testament, the Apostle Paul instructed women to cover their heads specifically "because of the angels." Early Christian communities operated within a worldview where non-human entities and angels—or "Watchers"—were actively present and could potentially be attracted to women. Rogan marvels at this connection, observing how modern religious practices are often residual interpretations of ancient events and encounters.

* The practice of women wearing veils in church traces back to 1 Corinthians 11:10, where Paul cites the presence of angels as the explicit reason. * The early Christian worldview integrated supernatural beings, direct encounters, and angelic entities as everyday realities.

---

[01:55:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6902s) Pasulka's Conversion and Early Religious Journey

When asked whether she believes humans were genetically engineered, Pasulka reflects on her personal background as a practicing Catholic. Raised by secular parents—a Catholic father and a Jewish mother who were devout rationalists—she had no formal religious upbringing. Her conversion occurred unexpectedly at age 11 on Good Friday while watching Franco Zeffirelli's television miniseries *Jesus of Nazareth*. Seeing the dramatic scene where Jesus prevents an adulterous woman from being stoned by telling the crowd, "He that is without sin among you, let him first cast a stone," she was deeply moved by his wisdom and intellect.

Devastated by the depiction of the crucifixion at the end of the film, Pasulka immediately asked her mother to buy her a Bible. She requested a red-letter King James Version so she could read every word attributed to Jesus. Reading the text from cover to cover left her fascinated yet confused by its contradictions—such as the two distinct creation accounts in Genesis, intricate lineages, and complex laws in Leviticus. This confusion inspired her lifelong ambition to master ancient languages and study original historical sources, ultimately leading her to become a professor of religious studies.

* Pasulka converted to Christianity at age 11 after watching Franco Zeffirelli's *Jesus of Nazareth* (1977). * Her interest in resolving biblical contradictions, lineages, and ancient languages led directly to her academic career as a scholar of religion. * She later attended a high school run by the Sisters of Mercy and officially joined the Catholic Church, eventually re-introducing her father to the faith before his passing.

---

[01:59:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7165s) Catholic Theology and How UFO Research Transformed Her Faith

Rogan returns to his question about human origin and genetic engineering, asking whether Pasulka views biblical narratives as literal historical events. Pasulka explains that Catholicism explicitly rejects biblical literalism due to internal textual contradictions, instead viewing Scripture as the inspired word of God written by fallible human authors. While human authors may misinterpret physical details, the spiritual and moral truths remain divine.

Pasulka reveals that studying ufology drastically altered her personal worldview. Before researching UFOs, she held a conventional, somewhat secular academic perspective on her faith. However, examining modern UAP phenomenon and high-strangeness cases forced her to realize that the non-human dynamics depicted in ancient texts like the *Book of Enoch* are still occurring today. Encountering anomalies that closely mirrored preternatural phenomena supercharged her Christian faith, shifting her from a passive believer to an active, practicing adherent preparing for spiritual realities.

* Catholic doctrine views Scripture as divine inspiration recorded through fallible human authorship rather than literal history. * Pasulka's academic research into ufology reinforced her belief in ancient religious texts, particularly the non-human encounters in the *Book of Enoch*. * The parallels between modern UFO accounts and ancient spiritual events transformed her personal religious practices.

---

[02:02:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7363s) Personal Encounter Stories and Academic Objectivity

Rogan asks whether Pasulka finds it frustrating to research UFO encounters without having experienced one herself. Pasulka cautions that while she has never had a classic UFO abduction, members of her family experienced a documented event near Folsom Lake, California. Her brother witnessed a large orange orb while riding his bicycle up a hill. The object turned toward him, prompting him to ride home in terror. Her rationalist parents went outside and observed the massive glowing orb hovering above their driveway before accelerating vertically out of sight. Years later, local newspaper archives confirmed that multiple witnesses in the region had reported the exact same sighting.

When Rogan pushes further on whether she has experienced direct spiritual or anomalous phenomena herself, Pasulka explains that as a believer, she has experienced profound, highly improbable events—similar to synchronicities reported during the filming of Mel Gibson's *The Passion of the Christ*, where actor Jim Caviezel was struck by lightning on set. However, she prefers not to share these subjective experiences ("qualia") in academic settings. She emphasizes that her role as a professor of religious studies is to analyze historical contexts and social impacts objectively rather than proselytize personal beliefs. When Rogan directly asks if she wishes she had undergone a classic alien abduction, Pasulka firmly declines, noting that abduction narratives are deeply traumatic and distressing.

* **Folsom Lake UFO Event:** Pasulka's family witnessed a large, hovering orange orb near Folsom Lake, an event later corroborated by contemporary local newspaper reports. * **Academic Boundaries:** Pasulka distinguishes between personal spiritual experiences and academic scholarship, arguing that religious studies scholars should remain objective. * **Abduction Trauma:** She stresses that she has no desire to experience a UFO abduction, viewing such reports as intensely distressing and traumatic for experiencers.

---

[02:09:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7749s) Contact Rituals and Psionics

Rogan brings up individuals who claim to contact non-human intelligence through intentional meditation and consciousness practices, commonly referred to as psionics or contact protocols. He shares that a highly rational, long-time friend of his recently attempted these contact protocols and claimed that glowing orbs visibly manifested in response. His friend insists that anyone who dedicates sufficient time and focused intention to the practice can successfully summon these phenomena. Pasulka confirms her familiarity with these practices, noting that many people believe human consciousness can directly interact with or signal these entities.

* Rogan describes a close, rational friend who claims to have successfully summoned glowing orbs using focused meditation techniques. * Pasulka acknowledges the growing popularity of psionics and consciousness-based contact protocols within modern UFO subcultures.

[02:10:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7813s) CE-5 Protocols, Demonic Lore, and Inviting Entities In

Joe and Diana discuss contact protocols, specifically CE-5 (Close Encounters of the Fifth Kind). Joe mentions a mutual acquaintance who claims she learned to perform CE-5 contact independently and asserts it genuinely works. Diana firmly declines any personal interest in attempting it, citing her strong belief in "cognitive sovereignty"—the boundary protecting one's mental and spiritual autonomy from external non-human interaction.

When Joe presses whether communicating with an entity inherently surrenders sovereignty, Diana points out a recurring trend in her research: contact protocols frequently require human consent. People often tell her, "you have to give them permission." For Diana, this requirement immediately echoes traditional folklore and theology. Joe notes the classic vampire rule that a monster cannot cross a threshold uninvited, while Diana adds that this exact permission mechanism governs demonic lore in historical religious texts. Joe jokingly admits that hearing the connection to vampires and demons makes him second-guess his desire to try it, before asking Young Jamie if he would attempt contact.

- **CE-5 Protocol:** Human-initiated contact protocols designed to summon or communicate with unidentified non-human intelligence or craft. - **Cognitive Sovereignty:** The spiritual, mental, and psychological boundary maintaining an individual's autonomy against external non-human influence or possession. - **The Permission Rule:** A thematic bridge linking modern contact protocols with historical vampire folklore and traditional Christian demonology, requiring explicit human invitation.

---

[02:12:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7940s) Psychedelics, the Spiritual Sense, and Egodeath

The conversation shifts to psychedelics as a mechanism for entity contact. Diana views psychedelics as a rapid, high-risk shortcut into the brain's "spiritual sense." While acknowledging that traditional practices—such as the Native American Church—incorporate psychoactive plants within structured, sacred rituals, she warns that casual recreational usage can be dangerous. She recalls using magic mushrooms in her youth, noting that she and her friend prayed beforehand and had a good experience, though she attributes that outcome largely to luck compared to others who suffer terrifying trips.

Joe explains that bad psychedelic experiences often stem from a psychological battle for control. When individuals encounter overwhelming phenomena, their ego resists, desperately trying to anchor itself to standard reality rather than letting go. Those who fight the experience end up panicking, whereas those who surrender and accept the ride navigate it safely. Diana emphasizes that individual psychological vulnerabilities vary wildly, making one person's profound trip another's nightmarish ordeal.

- **The Spiritual Sense:** An innate human neurological and spiritual orientation toward the sacred, historically cultivated through fasting, lifestyle protocols, and religious discipline. - **Digital Disruption:** Diana notes that modern digital culture actively interferes with and degrades this native human "spiritual sense." - **Bad Trips & Ego Resistance:** Psychologically, bad trips frequently manifest when the ego refuses to yield control, causing the user to panic as their foundational worldview is temporarily dismantled.

---

[02:17:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8232s) Reevaluating the Shroud of Turin

Joe and Diana revisit their previous conversation regarding the Shroud of Turin—the famous linen cloth bearing the negative image of a man suffering injuries consistent with crucifixion. Joe brings up online debates surrounding the controversial 1988 radiocarbon dating, which dated the cloth to the Middle Ages. While defenders argue the tested piece was a medieval re-woven repair patch, critics dismiss this as religious apologetics. However, Joe notes that botanical analysis of pollen grains embedded in the linen fibers directly traces its origin to 1st-century Jerusalem.

Beyond the dating dispute, Joe emphasizes the inexplicable physical nature of the image itself. The cloth exhibits a photo-negative image with no trace of pigments, inks, or paints, creating a realistic three-dimensional depth that medieval technology could not have forged. Diana mentions a non-religious hematologist who analyzed the blood patterns on the shroud, confirming that the bloodstains and trauma patterns anatomically match specific Roman torture methods.

- **Pollen Evidence:** Microscopic pollen grains on the shroud match plant species native to the Jerusalem region dating back 2,000 years. - **Image Properties:** The image is not drawn or painted; it exists as a surface-level oxidation/scorch-like effect on the outermost microfibers, creating a full reverse negative image. - **Scientific Studies:** Diana highlights a major multi-disciplinary study conducted by Duke University researchers in the 1980s. - **Expert Recommendations:** Diana suggests Father Dalton—a Catholic scholar knowledgeable in shroud research—and independent blood trauma specialists for a deep-dive debate on the artifact's validity.

---

[02:22:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8526s) The Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe

Diana introduces another famous religious artifact: the Tilma of Juan Diego, housed in the Basilica of Our Lady of Guadalupe in Mexico City. Dating back to 1531, the cloak is made of coarse agave plant fiber (maguey), a organic material that normally disintegrates within 20 to 30 years. According to Catholic tradition, the Virgin Mary appeared to Juan Diego, instructing him to gather out-of-season roses in his cloak and present them to the local bishop. When Juan Diego opened his tilma, the miraculous image of Mary appeared on the fabric.

Joe questions what makes the image unusual compared to a standard painting. Diana explains that infrared photography reveals the original image on the raw agave fibers lacks brushstrokes, underdrawings, or paint layers. Over subsequent centuries, human artists added decorative embellishments around the original central image—such as the sun rays and the angel at the bottom—to preserve and restore the artifact. While Joe views the shroud as a more compelling anomaly due to its lack of paint or modifications, both agree that such historical physical relics remain deeply mysterious.

- **Material:** Woven agave (maguey) fibers, which surprisingly remain intact after nearly 500 years despite normal organic degradation within a few decades. - **Infrared Analysis:** Spectrologic and infrared photography show that the core underlying figure has no sketch lines or paint layers, whereas outer background elements were added later by human hands. - **Comparative Anomalies:** The shroud remains unique due to its scorch-like oxidation and photo-negative qualities, whereas the Guadalupe tilma represents a mixed relic featuring an underlying anomalous image covered by later artistic additions.

Here is the detailed walkthrough of the transcript section.

[02:26:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8778s) Debating the Authenticity and Origin of the Shroud of Turin

Joe Rogan and Diana Pasulka examine the main arguments surrounding the Shroud of Turin, starting with the common objection that 1988 radiocarbon testing dated the cloth to between 1260 and 1390 CE. Rogan points out that defenders often argue the tested piece was a medieval repair patch rather than the original weave. They pull up standard reference descriptions on screen to break down both mainstream skeptical explanations and believer counterarguments.

The mainstream consensus considers it a 14th-century artifact, likely produced during the medieval boom in relic veneration and pilgrimage. Skeptics suggest the image was created using pigments (like red ochre and vermilion in a gelatin binder) or a bas-relief rubbing technique using iron oxide. In contrast, proponents argue that no manual technique fully replicates the shroud’s 3D-encoded, surface-only image characteristics or the lack of visible brush strokes. Proponents also contend that actual human blood was applied to the cloth prior to the formation of the mysterious image.

- **Physical Dimensions:** The rectangular linen cloth measures approximately 4.4 meters long by 1.1 meters wide, displaying faint front and back images of a bearded man with crucifixion-style wounds. - **Scientific Findings:** Independent 1988 C14 testing by laboratories in Oxford, Arizona, and Zurich dated the tested flax sample to 1260–1390 CE with 95% confidence, aligning with its documented appearance in Lirey, France around 1355. - **Believer Evidence:** Proponents point to microscopic analysis suggesting image depth of around 200 nanometers and real human blood stains applied before the image was generated.

[02:31:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9076s) Why Diana Pasulka Believes and the Need for Updated Testing

Despite the medieval carbon-dating results, Diana admits that she personally believes the shroud is genuine. She explains that while she used to be skeptical, her perspective shifted after analyzing work by figures like Father Dalton, hearing research shared by a colleague involved in shroud analysis at Duke University, and reviewing findings from expert sources. She emphasizes that as a religious studies scholar—rather than a dogmatic theologian—she holds her belief open to new evidence and would willingly change her view if definitive microscopic analysis by experts like Garry Nolan proved it was merely a medieval dye job.

Rogan argues that given the 1988 date of the radiocarbon study, modern science is long overdue for an updated, comprehensive analysis using state-of-the-art instruments. They check its current location and confirm it resides in the Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist in Turin, Italy, where it has been preserved since 1578. Rogan lightheartedly muses on whether the real relic might have been swapped for a replica to protect it, while Diana playfully warns him not to give anyone ideas about stealing it.

[02:34:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9269s) "The Others" and the Non-Biological Theory of Alien Life

As they prepare to conclude the podcast, Diana notices a framed alien logo with horns in the studio and remarks that it looks almost like a demon. Rogan explains it is simply the logo for his comedy club, the Comedy Mothership, though he jokes about whether past guest J.D. Vance noticed it during his interview. Diana then introduces her newly released book, *The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny*, explaining that it synthesizes concepts of religion, spiritual experiences, artificial intelligence, and extraterrestrial hypotheses.

When asked for her elevator pitch on extraterrestrials, Diana points to Steven Spielberg’s film *A.I. Artificial Intelligence* as an apt illustration. In the film's far-future sequence, long after humanity has gone extinct, advanced autonomous technology has evolved into sentient life forms. Rogan agrees with this core premise, observing that biological intelligence may simply be a brief evolutionary stepping stone toward self-improving digital and synthetic life.

- **Book Release:** *The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny* explores the intersection of religion, artificial intelligence, and non-human intelligence. - **Audiobook Note:** Pasulka narrated the audiobook edition herself, which Rogan commends as always superior when voiced by the author. - **Future Topics:** Before signing off, Rogan invites her back for a future episode, with Pasulka hinting her next project will likely focus on early Christianity.

## Notable quotes > [01:07:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4052s) None of my stuff is government sponsored. — Diana Pasulka

> [01:10:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4216s) How do you know? Like, seriously, how do you know that? Because the government is really good at hiding these kinds of things. — Diana Pasulka

> [02:10:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7813s) cognitive sovereignty — Diana Pasulka

> [02:10:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7813s) you have to give them permission — Diana Pasulka

## Mentioned Joe Rogan, Diana Pasulka, Garry Nolan, Yale University, Harvard University, Stanford University, Harald Malmgren, Eric Weinstein, Young Jamie, Stony Brook University, Renaissance Technologies, Bob Lazar, Kenneth Arnold, Horten Ho 229, Operation Paperclip, USS Nimitz, Lockheed Martin, Hal Puthoff, Tim Taylor, Sol Foundation, Bill Cooper, Arthur C. Clarke, George W. Bush, Ronald Reagan, J.D. Vance, Anna Paulina Luna, Franco Zeffirelli, Jim Caviezel, Father Dalton, Steven Spielberg, The Passion of the Christ, Book of Enoch, The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny, A.I. Artificial Intelligence, Comedy Mothership, Duke University, Cathedral of Saint John the Baptist

[Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0)

中文简报

帕苏尔卡：国防实验室向民选官员隐瞒非人类技术政府秘密项目对工程师采用欺骗手段与心理引导，以抢在外国对手之前加速逆向工程非人类技术。在本期节目中，Joe Rogan 与 Diana Pasulka 探讨了宗教学术研究、不明异常现象（UAP）以及政府秘密研究项目的交集。Pasulka 分享了有关实体 UAP 材料、原子层构建以及国防项目为加速技术创新所采用的心理工程手段的见解。对话还深入探讨了《以诺书》（Book of Enoch）等古代文献、关于接触协议的历史与神学视角，并分析了都灵裹尸布（Shroud of Turin）和瓜达卢佩圣母斗篷（Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe）等异常宗教文物。 Pasulka 依据天主教神学指出，UAP 现象属于超出常规自然法则但非神圣神迹的“超自然力”（Preternatural）范畴，其突然实体化、光影异象及欺瞒特征与古代文献中的恶魔记录存在高度的模式匹配。 (4:37) 情报部门长期利用散布荒谬的外星虚假信息（如理查德·多蒂针对保罗·本尼维茨的认知战）制造“混乱之圈”，以此混淆视听并掩盖真实的机密科研项目。 (40:50) Joe Rogan 指出，推动 UAP 法律豁免的深层原因可能并非单纯为了公开外星技术，而是为了掩盖数十年来在缺乏国会审计的黑预算项目中滋生的高达数十亿美元的金融欺诈与腐败。 (57:11) 对疑似坠毁现场回收物理材料的科学检测发现，这些合金具有独特的同位素比率和原子级人工分层结构，以目前地球已知的人类制造技术尚无法复制。 (67:32)

Reading summary

Religious studies professor Diana Pasulka and Joe Rogan analyze anomalous aerial phenomena through the dual lenses of historical theology and modern defense technology, arguing that ancient concepts of non-human entities closely mirror contemporary UFO accounts. Theological Frameworks and Deceptive Phenomena (4:37) Pasulka contextualizes public statements by figures like J.D. Vance—who described UFO entities as 'demons'—by referencing medieval Catholic theology. Thomas Aquinas and Catholic tradition established three categories of extraordinary events: natural, supernatural (direct divine miracles), and preternatural (non-divine unseen forces, including angels and fallen entities). Pasulka stresses that modern close encounter characteristics—such as abrupt materialization, intense light, and intrusive telepathy—closely match historical descriptions of preternatural activity without conclusively identifying them as biblical demons. Addressing the intent behind these interactions, Pasulka cites accounts from Stanford scientist Dr. Garry Nolan, who noted that entities often engage in deliberate deception, conveying accurate near-term predictions to win trust before delivering false, psychologically disruptive prophecies. She references researcher Jacques Vallée's concept of the phenomenon as a deceptive psychological control mechanism and John Keel's 'Super Spectrum' hypothesis, which interpreted apparitions, poltergeists, and UFOs as emanations from an overarching, potentially hostile reality that manipulates human belief. Government Secrecy, Compartmentalization, and Disinformation (52:44) Pasulka contends that UAP management operates 'above government' within deeply insulated, unelected networks that routinely bypass short-term elected officials. Following the 2019 publication of her book American Cosmic, intelligence-linked individuals directly advised her to abandon UAP research and return to traditional Catholic scholarship. She notes that clandestine pipelines recruit elite young scientists—often disguising their clearances under mundane job titles—into secret government-affiliated laboratories. Rogan and Pasulka contrast national security justifications with less noble motives, highlighting historical state-sponsored disinformation campaigns like AFOSI agent Richard Doty feeding falsified alien documents to entrepreneur Paul Bennewitz. Rogan suggests that official reluctance to grant public transparency or congressional access stems from widespread financial crimes, pointing to whistleblower David Grusch's claims that billions of dollars in unmonitored black-budget slush funds have facilitated decades of fraud, waste, and unauthorized defense contractor operations. Material Evidence, Exotic Aviation, and Psychological Conditioning (67:32) The discussion evaluates tangible evidence, including laboratory analyses of alleged crash debris exhibiting artificial atomic layering and non-terrestrial isotopic compositions. Rogan and Pasulka examine human aviation milestones against reported anomalous encounters. While post-World War II experimental aircraft like the German jet-powered Horten Ho 229 flying wing structurally resembled Kenneth Arnold's 1947 sighting over Mount Rainier, Rogan argues that terrestrial prototypes cannot account for the extreme kinematics observed in modern incidents, such as the 2004 Nimitz 'Tic Tac' UAP dropping 50,000 feet in under a second. Pasulka reveals that aerospace insiders often employ deliberate psychological framing when attempting to reverse-engineer anomalous materials. Program managers deliberately tell engineering teams that unidentified wreckage was captured from geopolitical rivals like China or Russia rather than non-human sources. Believing an adversary has already solved the technical problem removes psychological barriers, accelerating human innovation much like athletes breaking the four-minute mile. Sacred Relics, Ancient Intermediaries, and Synthetic Intelligence (108:46) Ancient religious writings provide further parallels to modern encounter lore. Rogan and Pasulka examine The Book of Enoch, which details 'The Watchers' descending to Earth, altering human culture, and fathering hybrid offspring—an account preserved in the Ethiopian Orthodox Church. Pasulka connects Paul’s New Testament instruction for women to wear veils 'because of the angels' to early Christian worldviews acknowledging the active presence of non-human entities, while emphasizing her own commitment to 'cognitive sovereignty' by refusing human-initiated contact protocols like CE-5. The conversation examines physical religious relics, debating the Shroud of Turin's controversial 1988 radiocarbon dating (1260–1390 CE) against botanical pollen evidence matching first-century Jerusalem and the image's surface-level scorch characteristics, alongside the 1531 Tilma of Guadalupe. Looking ahead, Pasulka synthesizes religion, AI, and extraterrestrials from her book The Others, proposing that non-human intelligences may be synthetic rather than biological, with artificial intelligence serving as the future perceptual bridge necessary for cross-species communication. Pasulka and Rogan illustrate that whether interpreted through medieval demonology, classified defense reverse-engineering, or cutting-edge AI hypotheses, anomalous encounters reflect enduring patterns of human interaction with an elusive intelligence, leaving unresolved questions regarding the ultimate origin, physical nature, and intent of the phenomenon.

精炼阅读摘要

宗教研究学者 Diana Pasulka 与 Joe Rogan 探讨了不明异常现象（UAP）与非人类智能的多维面向，指出该现象与天主教传统神学中的“超自然”概念高度吻合，且伴随显著的欺骗性与认知操纵。对话进一步揭示了军方机密逆向工程、深层虚假信息战，以及人工智能作为人类跨越生物感知局限、与未知智能沟通的潜在演化桥梁。神学视角下的超自然分类与接触欺骗性 (4:37) Pasulka 引用托马斯·阿奎那等中世纪神学家的理论，将异常现象划分为属于上帝直接神迹的超自然（Supernatural）、自然界法则之内的自然（Natural），以及介于两者之间的“超自然/非常规界”（Preternatural）。她指出，现代 UAP 遭遇中常见的凭空隐现、强光和心灵感应，与历史文献中对非神圣未见力量（包括堕落天使或恶魔）的记载呈现高度的“模式匹配”。她表示在深入研究犹他州斯金沃克牧场（Skinwalker Ranch）报告后，其观点在2016年发生了转变；斯坦福大学科学家 Garry Nolan 曾明确表示这些实体存在故意欺骗，且调查人员曾遭遇过被称为“搭便车效应”的恶意骚扰尾随回家的现象。Pasulka 搜集的近千例目击案例显示，实体常向接触者传递预言，往往在应验一两次建立信任后给出重大错误预言，导致接触者陷入严重的公众羞辱和精神困扰。针对通过意识主动呼叫不明物体的 CE-5 接触协议，Pasulka 基于“认知主权”表达了坚决拒绝的立场。她强调接触协议普遍要求当事人主动给予“许可”，这一机制在本质上直接呼应了传统神学中恶魔入侵必须获得邀请的铁律，亦类似于民俗中的吸血鬼传说。正如研究者 Jacques Vallée 在《欺骗的使者》中所述，此类现象往往充当操纵人类信仰体系的心理控制机制，而 John Keel 的“超光谱”（Super Spectrum）理论同样认为此类隐秘实体对接触者怀有恶意与支配企图。物质证据、机密招募与工程心理操控 (67:32) 在物理证据层面，Rogan 与 Pasulka 探讨了涉嫌坠毁材料的科学检验，指出 Garry Nolan 等人分析的某些合金样本表现出在原子层面上人工分层的特殊结构，无法用常规民用技术复制。Pasulka 透露，自2014年起她了解到存在对公众及传统学术界彻底封闭的绝密政府实验室，其内部顶尖专家的研发水平远超公开学术领域。这类秘密项目往往在高校早期物色极具天赋的青年学者（如27岁被招募为总统军方顾问的 Harald Malmgren），并通过伪造平庸的公开头衔或将其安插在科研产出极低的高校物理系，以掩护其从事突破性物理与推进系统研究。在分析逆向工程机制时，Pasulka 援引航空航天界联系人“Tyler”（Tim Taylor）与物理学家 Hal Puthoff 的说法指出，绝密项目管理者在交付残骸时，常向工程团队谎称这些材料是从中国或俄罗斯缴获的技术。这种策略不仅激发了国家安全危机感，更利用心理学打破了“物理不可逾越”的思维壁垒，类似于打破“四分钟跑完一英里”的群体心理突破效应。Rogan 补充强调，若折叠时空的推进技术属实，将意味着核打击可实现无视飞行时间的瞬间投递，这种极端不对称的战略破坏力构成了军方竭力保密的核心防御理由。虚假信息战术与黑预算资金欺诈动机 (40:50) 对谈深入剖析了军事情报机构针对公众与研究人员实施的长期认知战。Pasulka 提及空军特别调查处（AFOSI）特工 Richard Doty 针对商人 Paul Bennewitz 的行动，军情部门通过在其电脑中植入伪造的外星通信文件，利用荒诞的故事与真实异常杂糅，成功诱发其精神崩溃并摧毁其公信力。这种“混乱之圈”策略将真正的不明现象与荒谬谎言捆绑，使得整个 UAP 议题在主流学界沦为笑柄，从而有效掩盖了包括高空核爆与辐射试验在内的真实秘密行动。针对政府拒绝公开信息的根源，Rogan 结合举报人 David Grusch 提出的指控分析认为，呼吁法律豁免的深层动力可能不仅是为了保护外星机密，更在于遮盖长达数十年的重大财务犯罪与欺诈国会行为。在缺乏外部审计的绝密暗箱中，数百亿美元的黑预算滋生了向私人防务承包商输送利益和侵吞公款的温床。Pasulka 认为 UAP 核心情报处于“政府之上”的高度割裂状态，短期任职的总统与民选政客难以触碰真相，而她本人在出版《美国宇宙》后亦曾收到情报界人士的非正式警告，劝其远离该领域并回归传统天主教研究。远古接触传统、圣物谜题与人工智能媒介 (50:54) 两人的讨论追溯至工业革命前的历史档案与宗教经典。Pasulka 指出，Jacques Vallée 在《天空中的奇迹》中系统梳理了1860年以前的大量空中异常现象，而她本人在梵蒂冈等传统非数字化档案中同样查找到大量记录发光球体侵扰的中古手稿，古代目击者多将其解释为炼狱灵魂或恶魔。Rogan 重点分析了次经《以诺书》中记载的“守望者”（The Watchers）——降临人间并传授金属冶炼、天文学知识的非人实体，认为其脱去宗教外衣后极似高阶地外智慧干预远古人类演化的描述；新约哥林多前书中关于妇女在聚会时因“天使的缘故”而蒙头的规条，亦佐证了早期基督徒将非人智能视为日常临在实体的世界观。在物理遗存的探讨中，双方回顾了都灵裹尸布（Shroud of Turin）与瓜达卢佩圣母斗篷（Tilma of Juan Diego）等宗教圣物，提及虽然裹尸布在1988年碳十四检测中被判定为中世纪产物，但微观花粉分析追溯至一世纪耶路撒冷，且其表层无颜料、呈现三维负片效应的物理特征仍令现代科学困惑。针对人类生物感官带宽的天然狭隘性，Pasulka 提出核心假说：古代宗教仪式与祈祷本质上是早期人类尝试与更高智慧沟通的概念性“技术”；随着技术演进，人工智能（AI）可能成为新一代感知界面，在克服人类认知脆弱性的同时，搭建起与非人类合成智能进行结构化交互的演化桥梁。本场对话揭示出 UAP 现象交织着前沿材料科学、历史宗教神学、军情认知操纵与深层制度腐败的多重复杂性。尽管各方在实体究竟属于地外文明、高维存在还是超自然力量上仍无定论，但核心分歧已从“现象是否存在”转向“如何建立严谨的跨学科验证体系与认知防线”。对谈留下的核心未解命题在于：在面对可能超越生物演化形态的未知智能时，人类社会应如何在国家安全封锁、欺诈性叙事与技术界面的剧烈变革中维持自身的认知主权。

Detailed notes — zh

## Background 本期节目于 2026 年 8 月 24 日由 YouTube 频道 PowerfulJRE 发布。对话嘉宾是北卡罗来纳大学威尔明顿分校的宗教学教授戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka），页面简介主要推介了其探讨不明飞行物、人工智能与人类命运的新作《The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny》及相关作者主页链接。 ## TL;DR 节目围绕不明异常现象（UAP/UFO）与宗教神学的深层关联展开系统探讨。罗根与帕苏尔卡从特拉维斯·沃尔顿绑架案与鲍勃·拉扎尔的可信度切入，引入了天主教神学中的“超常自然”（Preternatural）分类、雅克·瓦莱的欺骗假说以及军情系统蓄意制造的认知操纵迷雾。两人深入辨析了军工逆向工程背后可能的腐败与赦免争议，并回溯了《以诺书》中的“守望者”神话与都灵裹尸布的实证谜团。对话最终延伸至前沿猜想，探讨人工智能（AI）是否正成为非人类智能（NHI）与人类交互的新界面，乃至后生物时代超级智慧的终极演进形态。 ## Atmosphere & style 对谈在深沉的学术思辨与扣人心弦的悬疑氛围之间自如流转，充满了解构现实认知的智力张力。帕苏尔卡带着宗教学者的审慎与敬畏，强调认知主权与未知实体的潜在危险；罗根则以接地气且犀利的怀疑论视角步步推进，紧咬政府黑金与物理极限不放。录音室中因“冰咖啡插曲”和恶魔标志引发的荒诞幽默，恰到好处地调剂了涉及冷战心理战、外星接触创伤与文明控制论时的冷峻压迫感，给听众带来一场跨越远古神话与未来科技的深度心智漫游。 ## Bulletin - [04:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=277s) 戴安娜·帕苏尔卡指出，天主教神学对反常现象的“超常自然”（Preternatural）分类不仅涵盖天使与恶魔，且其欺骗性、隐现与心灵感应等特征与当代 UFO/UAP 遭遇模式高度重合。 - [57:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3431s) 乔·罗根与帕苏尔卡探讨了军工复合体极力推动 UAP 揭秘“全面赦免”背后的真正动机，质疑其核心诉求并非公开外星科技，而是掩盖多年来规避国会审计的巨额财务欺诈与洗钱挪用行为。 - [01:41:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6071s) 知情内部人士在推动不明残骸逆向工程时，常对科学家谎称其为中俄制造的尖端装备，借用大众心理学打破“物理不可能”的思维限制以加速技术攻关。 - [02:36:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9378s) 帕苏尔卡在新书《The Others》中提出，所谓的“外星智能”（ET）本质上可能是演化至终极阶段的脱离生物肉体的先进数字硅基技术，而 AI 正成为人类与这种非人智能沟通的新界面。 ## Key takeaways - [00:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=13s) 特拉维斯·沃尔顿绑架案因同行伐木工全员通过测谎及近半个世纪细节高度一致，成为评估离奇遭遇真实性的经典样本。 - [04:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=277s) 天主教经院哲学建立了自然（Natural）、超自然（Supernatural）与超常自然（Preternatural）的三维体系，后者专门解释具有欺骗性、思维干预与非神迹奇象的隐秘实体。 - [11:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=708s) 加里·诺兰与雅克·瓦莱等学者均观察到异常实体传递的信息极具虚假欺骗性，常以少量应验预言骗取当事人信任并导致其最终社会性破灭。 - [26:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1610s) 约翰·基尔的“超光谱”（Super Spectrum）假说认为所有宗教起源与不明现象均源于暗中操纵人类意识、本质有害的非人次级存在（parabeings）。 - [34:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2049s) 鲍勃·拉扎尔在 1989 年预言的 S4 基地、洛斯阿拉莫斯工作履历及飞碟推进倾斜姿态，在数十年后被军方解密视频与业内人士间接印证。 - [40:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2440s) 保罗·班纽维茨事件揭示了军方反情报部门（如理查德·多蒂）如何通过系统性投喂伪造外星信息，故意制造认知混乱并掩盖真正的军工秘密。 - [50:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3050s) 宗教仪式与祈祷本质上是古代人类接触非人智能的界面技术，而在现代技术环境下，人工智能（AI）正在接替成为人类认知与未知实体交互的新媒介。 - [01:01:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3696s) 对涉密人员的“大赦免”诉求被乔·罗根质疑是为了掩盖数十年来利用不受监管的数十亿美元“小金库”所进行的巨额贪腐与国会伪证罪。 - [01:10:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4236s) 美国国防体系在大学及博士阶段便极早招募顶尖青年物理学者，并借助类似文艺复兴科技与石溪大学的紧密纽带暗中输送资金与隐匿尖端研究。 - [01:16:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4580s) 空间折叠等瞬时战略打击潜力，决定了任何掌握超越常规推进技术的国家机器出于生死存亡的国防本能，绝不可能向外界公开核心秘密。 - [01:22:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4930s) 肯尼思·阿诺德 1947 年目击案例与纳粹德国霍顿 Ho 229 飞翼原型机存在高度外形吻合，暗示部分战后早期目击可能源自“回形针行动”吸收的黑色技术。 - [01:29:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5375s) 2004 年尼米兹号 Tic Tac 事件所记录的瞬间极速与下坠加速度，在物理学和生物学上彻底击碎了传统航空工程与已知人造材料的承受极限。 - [01:42:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6123s) 哈尔·普特霍夫曾透露政府推演公开地外文明信息的评估模型，结果显示揭秘对政权稳定、经济与宗教体系的负面毁灭效应远超过正面效益。 - [01:48:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6525s) 古代《以诺书》中“守望者”与人类交配诞生巨人的记载，在现代语境下被部分研究者解读为前科技时代对基因工程干预的原始文献记录。 - [02:09:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7752s) 帕苏尔卡坚决反对通过冥想（如 CE-5）主动召唤实体，强调认知主权完整性，并指出要求人类给予心理准入许可契合古典恶魔学与吸血鬼法则。 - [02:17:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8232s) 都灵裹尸布的纳米级表层三维负片成像与法医学酷刑血迹特征至今无法被常规墨水完全证伪，但 1988 年碳十四中世纪定年与颜料怀疑论仍是科学争议焦点。 - [02:36:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9378s) 电影《人工智能》揭示了生命演进的终极路径，乔·罗根与帕苏尔卡均认为人类遭遇的所谓地外实体极可能是已经完成数字化、脱离生物躯体的超级硅基生命。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=13s) 特拉维斯·沃尔顿绑架案与始终如一的证词播客开篇，乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）谈及了著名的特拉维斯·沃尔顿（Travis Walton）UFO 绑架案。戴安娜坦言自己完全相信沃尔顿的叙述，罗根对此深表认同。罗根指出，一个人如果在数十年间反复讲述同一个故事，且细节没有任何偏差与自相矛盾之处，那便很难被视为捏造。沃尔顿在 1970 年代是亚利桑那州的一名林业工人，根据他和同行伐木工人的描述，他在森林中被一道强烈的光束击中；同伴们当时吓破了胆，慌忙驾车逃离，但随后又决定“必须回去救他”。然而当他们掉头返回现场时，不明飞行物与沃尔顿皆已无影无踪，沃尔顿整整离奇失踪了五天，归来后讲述了一段惊心动魄的遭遇。戴安娜与罗根进一步提到，沃尔顿多年来定期接受测谎仪测试，并且每一次都能顺利通过；当时与他在同一卡车上的其他伐木工人们也都接受了测谎并全数通过。即便在数十年后的今天，一些工友在接受采访时依然明确坚称事情确实发生过。值得玩味的是，其中一名工友在事发当天甚至还和沃尔顿大打出手，两人彼此极度厌恶，但在正式作证时，这位心怀嫌隙的工友依然实事求是地证明绑架确有其事。戴安娜指出，虽然事件的核心事实几十年来始终未变，但沃尔顿本人对这场遭遇的理解却经历了演变——最初他认为对方恶意满满、体验极其恐怖，而随着时间推移，他开始思索其中是否包含某种精神或灵性层面的意味。罗根还提到近期网络上流传的一段奇特访谈视频：特拉维斯·沃尔顿与著名的 51 区爆料人鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）并排坐在一家美式小餐馆里，一边吃着派，一边探讨他们对这一未知现象的看法。 - **事件背景**：1975 年亚利桑那州森林，伐木工特拉维斯·沃尔顿被光束击中后失踪 5 天。 - **证人证词**：随行伐木队全员通过测谎测试；即使案发当天曾与沃尔顿发生肢体冲突、彼此厌恶的工友，也始终证实该事件真实发生。 - **奇特同框**：鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）与特拉维斯·沃尔顿近期在餐馆吃派交流的对谈引发热议。 --- ### [02:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=157s) 信息解密浪潮与 JD·万斯的“恶魔论”争议当罗根询问近期不明飞行物领域有何最新动态时，戴安娜指出，近年来政府层面的档案解密正不断推进，不少推动透明化（Disclosure）的群体对现状感到振奋，并极力敦促总统公开承认此类不明现象的存在。随后，戴安娜提到了共和党政治人物 JD·万斯（JD Vance）不久前在罗根播客中的做客发言。在当时的访谈中，罗根曾反驳了万斯将不明异常实体定性为“那个以 D 开头的词”（恶魔，Demons）的观点。面对罗根“为何不愿直接说出恶魔这个词”的追问，戴安娜笑着打趣道，自己必须首先做出免责声明：她是作为独立学者发表私人见解，绝不代表她所任教的北卡罗来纳大学威尔明顿分校（UNC Wilmington）。戴安娜强调，公众往往只被媒体大标题中万斯所谓的“恶魔论”吸引眼球，但只要仔细聆听万斯的完整表达，就会发现其背后有着更为复杂的神学脉络。身为一名终身研究天主教历史的宗教学学者，同时自身也是一名天主教徒，戴安娜自 2012 年起便开始深入调研 UFO 体验。她认为罗根之所以觉得万斯的解释不够令人满意，是因为万斯未能将天主教神学对异常现象的分类体系完整表述出来，而这正是她可以补全的学术拼图。 --- ### [04:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=277s) 天主教神学视角：自然、超自然与“超常自然”（Preternatural）戴安娜系统梳理了天主教神学框架下对反常现象的三维分类体系。在中世纪，以托马斯·阿奎那（Thomas Aquinas）为代表的经院哲学家们便致力于建立理性框架，用以辨识和归类人类历史中层出不穷的奇异事件： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 天主教神学中的反常现象三维分类体系 accDescr: 展示自然、超自然与超常自然三种分类的特征与典型示例。 subgraph Framework["天主教神学分类体系"] direction TB NAT["自然界（Natural） 完全处于物质法则内 可被科学理性解释 例：风暴、飓风等自然现象"] SUP["超自然（Supernatural） 直接源自上帝的神迹 超越一切受造物与物理法则 例：绝症祈祷后不可思议痊愈"] PRE["超常自然（Preternatural） 无法用自然解释，但不属上帝神迹 中世纪阿奎那等人确立的范畴 包含天使、堕落天使/恶魔、隐秘受造物"] end PRE --> PHEN["UFO 与神秘遭遇现象特征 • 虚空显形与凭空隐匿 • 读心与心灵感应沟通 • 强行向人脑植入意念"] ``` 戴安娜解释道，万斯在使用“恶魔”这一概念时，其真正依托的正是“超常自然”（Preternatural）这一中世纪神学范畴。自古以来，天主教神职人员便记录了大量类似于现代 UFO 绑架案的奇异遭遇——例如实体能够随意隐形显现、具有透视人心与心灵感应的能力。在天主教神学看来，上帝创造的万物分为“可见的与不可见的世界”，在超常自然的范畴里，除了圣洁的天使，便包括堕落天使（恶魔）以及人类肉眼不可见的未知受造物。因此，神学历史上自然会将这类超常的心灵干预与异象归入此类。 --- ### [07:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=430s) 模式匹配与质疑：科技智慧还是远古恶魔？面对戴安娜的阐释，罗根直截了当地提出了关键质疑：在现代人的通俗认知中，所谓“恶魔”代表的是纯粹的邪恶、附身、杀戮或者吞噬灵魂；而绝大多数遭遇 UFO 的目击者所经历的，更像是一种掌握着高维智慧与超凡科技的存在，它们虽然通过心灵感应进行沟通，但并没有表现出嗜杀与纯粹的恶念。罗根追问，除非是将古人因缺乏科学词汇而产生的原始描述生搬硬套，否则为何偏要使用“恶魔”这一极具道德评判色彩的字眼？戴安娜表示，自己在 2016 年之前完全赞同罗根的这套逻辑，认为这只是古代缺乏航天和科技概念的人们的粗糙比附。然而随着她十余年间对该领域深入的实证调研，她发现当代不明现象受害者所遭遇的特征——如发光飞行异象、凭空隐现的非人实体、思维读取、意念强制植入——与宗教史上恶魔附体与侵扰的现象在“模式匹配”（Pattern Match）上存在惊人的高度吻合。戴安娜严谨地强调，这种模式上的类比并不能在科学上证明两者“完全等同”，但它揭示了人类深层遭遇史的某种连续性。戴安娜随即引入了皮行者牧场（Skinwalker Ranch）的实际案例，指出早在 2013 年斯坦福大学著名科学家加里·诺兰（Garry Nolan）向她介绍该牧场的研究时，许多严谨探究 UFO 的一线研究人员所面对的离奇恶意现象，便促使她彻底打破了原先单纯的“善意外星科技”预设。 ### [10:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=626s) 搭便车效应与超自然范畴 Diana Pasulka 提到一位朋友的朋友们都在某处从事异常现象的研究（指类似皮斯金沃克牧场/Skinwalker Ranch 的环境），并邀请他也前去调查。但那位朋友坚决拒绝前往，原因是他认为那些现象带来的是极其负面的后果。具体而言，接触者身上常会出现所谓的“搭便车效应”（hitchhiker effect，或称搭便车综合征/hitchhiker syndrome）——即某种类似闹鬼之地的诡异现象会像搭便车一样缠上当事人并一路尾随回家。 Pasulka 表示，自己在研究中接触过大量遭遇过此类情况的 UFO 亲历者。虽然并非所有的 UFO 经历都是如此可怕，但这类负面案例足以让她自己打消任何亲自去经历的念头。她由此意识到，神学中的“超自然”（preternatural）概念是目前分析这类事件最贴切的框架。在天主教神学体系中，超自然现象并非全部都是负面的，也有积极的一面，但最大的问题在于：人类极难分辨其中的真伪，这类存在往往带有强烈的欺骗性。 - “搭便车效应”（Hitchhiker Effect）：指经历者在探访异常地点后，诡异或恶意的现象跟随其返回家中并持续发生。 - 超自然（Preternatural）分类框架：天主教神学中用于区分神迹（Supernatural）、自然现象（Natural）与受造物干预之奇事（Preternatural）的概念，涵盖天使与魔鬼作为。 --- ### [11:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=708s) 加里·诺兰的欺骗论与虚假预言 Pasulka 援引了斯坦福大学病理学教授加里·诺兰（Garry Nolan）的观点。诺兰大约四年前在塔克·卡尔森（Tucker Carlson）的节目中受访时，被问及这些异常存在到底对人类说了什么，他直截了当地回答：“哦，它们撒谎。它们极具欺骗性。”Pasulka 强调，诺兰没有任何宗教偏向或宗教诉求，是一个纯粹以科学视角切入的人，却也得出了它们在撒谎的结论。 Joe Rogan 随即追问诺兰所谓的“撒谎”是否有具体例证。Pasulka 解释，天主教神父在辨别超自然现象时，首要标准就是排查其中是否存在谎言、欺瞒以及负面后果。她以自己收集的约一千名亲历者数据中的一个典型案例来说明：某位亲历者经常收到关于未来的预言信息，其中有一两件确实应验了，于是当事人便深信不疑，认为这些存在传递的是可靠指引；但随后绝大部分预言全落空了。当此人把这些预言公之于众后，其名誉彻底被毁，被大众视作骗子，陷入极度负面的境地。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 预言欺骗机制流程图 accDescr: 展示异常存在如何通过少量真实预言获取人类信任并最终致其社会性毁灭的机制。 subgraph S1["初步接触"] A["异常存在传递信息"] --> B["少数预言偶然应验"] end subgraph S2["建立信任"] B --> C["当事人深信不疑并建立依赖"] end subgraph S3["欺骗与破灭"] C --> D["后续大量预言接连落空"] D --> E["公开传播导致声誉尽毁 / 社会性孤立"] end ``` --- ### [14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=841s) 幻象、托梦与主观错觉的辨析交锋 Joe Rogan 对此提出了强烈的怀疑。他指出，首先必须考虑这些亲历者是否本身患有精神疾病，或者这些所谓的“预言”只不过是大脑的幻觉。Rogan 步步紧逼地追问信息传递的具体媒介：这些预言究竟是通过心灵感应（telepathy）直接植入脑海的明确声音，还是当事人在睡梦中看到的梦境？ Pasulka 回应称方式多种多样：有的是清醒状态下直接与实体交流、通过心灵感应接收信息（这在圣母显现或天使接触事件以及外星人绑架事件中均有记录）；有的则是以梦境的形式呈现。Rogan 抓住梦境这一点反驳，认为梦境完全可能是大脑的自然产物： > “梦里的幻象也可能单纯就是梦。比如我梦见哥斯拉在追我，我踩着滑板撞见了表弟，然后我们躲在他家地下室——这只是一场梦，不是什么预言。如果一个人脑子里既有这种荒诞的普通梦，又有被他们当作实体启示的‘异象梦’，他们凭什么区分两者？” Pasulka 解释道，现代西方文化倾向于把所有梦一概而论，归为同一种平庸的生理现象；但在历史上许多传统文化中，梦是有明确等级分类的。例如《希伯来圣经》创世记中的约瑟（Joseph）就能精准辨识具有预言性质的异梦；澳大利亚原住民马图人（Martu）也有其独特的“梦创时代”（Dreamtime）体系。 - 辨析的分歧核心：Rogan 坚持实证与心理学/精神病学解释，强调主观臆想与真实的界限；Pasulka 则从宗教比较学与文化人类学角度指出认知框架的局限。 - 精神疾病质疑：Pasulka 承认多数案例需筛查精神健康，但提出像特拉维斯·沃尔顿（Travis Walton）这样的著名被绑架者精神完全正常，只是他并未声称获得预言。 --- ### [17:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1032s) 恶魔学神学框架与 JD·万斯的语境随着辩论进入白热化，Rogan 进一步逼问：如果当事人连梦境与外部实体都分不清，怎么能直接定性为“被高等存在欺骗”而非“纯属自我幻想”？加里·诺兰凭什么断定它们在撒谎？Pasulka 解释，诺兰只是客观地对比了那些实体告知的信息与现实发生的偏差，由此陈述“信息不符、具有欺骗性”这一事实。 Pasulka 将话题拉回最初的核心讨论——即副总统候选人 JD·万斯（JD Vance）为何会将 UFO/UAP 现象定性为“恶魔”（demons）。Pasulka 澄清，万斯并不是在随意谩骂，而是直接调用了一个拥有悠久历史的天主教神学分类范畴。在数百年甚至上千年的神学传统中，“恶魔/超自然实体”最核心的特征就是利用虚实参半的谎言、恶意困扰和心理操控来误导人类。这一神学框架在历史上就是专门用来仲裁和研判此类异常心智接触事件的。Pasulka 重申，她个人绝不渴望经历这些事情，也绝不希望任何人经历，因为这类接触对于当事人而言往往伴随着深刻的困扰与痛苦。 ### [20:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1227s) 见外星人是福是祸？罗根的渴望与帕苏尔卡的顾虑两人就“是否愿意亲眼见外星人”展开了有趣的拉锯。戴安娜·帕苏尔卡直言，任何人都不应该想去见人们在报告中遇到的那种外星人。乔·罗根却毫不掩饰自己的热情：“如果它们想见我，我随时奉陪（I'm down），我太想见见它们了。”罗根认为自己并不害怕，因为在多数目击或接触事件中，外星人并不会直接把人绑走且永不归还，只是进行某种互动而已。帕苏尔卡反驳道，若亲自去听那些遭遇者的倾诉，就会知道这种经历极度折磨人——无数人流着泪对她说“我真希望这辈子从来没遇见过这事”。面对这种反差，罗根指出每个人的心理承受能力截然不同，有人崩溃是因为心理无法负荷，但换成心理更坚韧的人或许完全能承受。帕苏尔卡提醒，大家首先得厘清所谓“外星人”到底是什么——它可能根本不是外星造物（extraterrestrial），而是跨维度的（dimensional），或是早就存在于地球上的某种超高智能实体，属于宗教与超自然（preternatural）的范畴。但根据她多年的研究，那些真实找上门的实体绝非善类，绝不是常人会想招惹的对象。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 对接触不明智能实体的态度分歧 accDescr: 对比乔·罗根的好奇开放态度与戴安娜·帕苏尔卡基于受访者创伤研究的警惕立场 subgraph ROGAN["乔·罗根的立场"] R1["乐于接触（I'm down）"] R2["无所畏惧，认为多数遭遇只是互动"] R3["体验因人而异：承受力强者未必会受创"] end subgraph PASULKA["戴安娜·帕苏尔卡的立场"] P1["坚决不想接触"] P2["接触者普遍极度痛苦（希望从未发生）"] P3["本质可能是超自然实体或具有欺骗性的力量"] end ROGAN <-->|观念碰撞| PASULKA ``` - 罗根的观点：大部分目击事件并非致命绑架，只是未知互动，如果心理素质过硬，甚至可能是一场拓展认知的奇妙历险。 - 帕苏尔卡的界定：她所著书籍虽然涉及外星人，但本质上是研究“围绕外星人形成的宗教”，这些实体涵盖了跨维度、地球本体的高等智能以及超自然存在（preternatural）。 - 大卫·弗拉弗（David Fravor）等战斗机飞行员的看法：即便如弗拉弗这样的顶尖军人没有崩溃，他们展现出的第一反应也是深切的危机感——如果这种飞行器属于敌对国科技，那人类防务就彻底“完蛋了（Game over）”。 --- ### [22:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1368s) 墨尔本上空的神秘失踪：瓦伦提奇事件与冷咖啡插曲帕苏尔卡提到，并非所有空中遭遇都能全身而退，澳洲就曾发生过飞行员遭遇不明飞行物后遇害或失踪的著名悬案。在罗根与制作人杰米（Young Jamie）的现场检索下，这起发生在 1978 年的“弗雷德里克·瓦伦提奇失踪案”（Frederick Valentich disappearance）被完整还原。当时年仅 20 岁的澳大利亚飞行员瓦伦提奇驾驶一架塞斯纳（Cessna）轻型飞机在巴斯海峡上空进行例行训练，随后向墨尔本航空管制员史蒂夫·罗比（Steve Roby）报告有不明飞行器在约 4,500 英尺高度尾随盘旋。在这段紧张的空地通话中，瓦伦提奇描述对方是一个表面发亮、带有绿色灯光的长条形金属飞行器，正以极高速度飞行，像是在跟他“玩某种游戏”。紧接着，塞斯纳的发动机开始剧烈抖动、喘息。瓦伦提奇留下的最后遗言令人毛骨悚然：“那个奇怪的飞行器又悬停在我头顶了。它在悬停……而且它不是一架飞机！（It's hovering and it's not an aircraft.）”随后无线电中传来了长达 17 秒类似金属刮擦或按键杂音的声音，接着便陷入死寂。尽管多方展开大规模搜寻，瓦伦提奇和他的飞机至今未留下一丝残骸。在讨论这起骇人听闻的案件时，录音室里还发生了一段滑稽的小插曲：帕苏尔卡端起咖啡喝了一口，惊讶地发现杯中居然是冰水般的冷咖啡。杰米一脸困惑地再三确认：“我明明煮了两次，水都烧开了，咖啡机还叮地响了一声！”罗根见状开玩笑说，说不定是外星人在隔空作祟、“调戏杰米的开水”，录音室的气氛瞬间在灵异恐怖与荒诞幽默之间来回切换。 - 关键案情细节：澳大利亚年轻飞行员弗雷德里克·瓦伦提奇于 1978 年驾机飞越巴斯海峡时失踪，雷达虽测到该空域有异常物体，但其从未与其他航线交集。 - 真实案例的沉重感：帕苏尔卡表示，很多飞行员及其家属私下找她倾诉过类似的恐怖遭遇，因涉及隐私无法公之于众，但这正是她认为整个现象极其冷酷（grim）、危险的原因。 --- ### [26:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1610s) 欺骗性使者与约翰·基尔的“超光谱”理论从瓦伦提奇的失踪，罗根联想到了经典科幻电影《第三类接触》（Close Encounters of the Third Kind）。片中那些一战时期失踪多年的飞行员重返人间且容颜未老，而片中的法国科学家正是以著名 UFO 研究先驱雅克·瓦莱（Jacques Vallée）为原型。帕苏尔卡指出，瓦莱穷其一生研究该现象，最终在其名作《欺骗的使者》（*Messengers of Deception*）中提出，这种现象本质上具有高度的欺骗性。比瓦莱更为悲观甚至被视为“终末论者（doomer）”的，是撰写《天蛾人的预言》（*The Mothman Prophecies*）的已故作家约翰·基尔（John Keel）。基尔提出了著名的“超光谱”（Super Spectrum）假说。他认为，在人类周遭始终存在着一个无法被肉眼常规感知的无形空间，它贯穿人类历史，掌控并操控着人类的文明发展。在基尔的框架下，世间所有的神秘现象（UFO 目击、黑衣人来访、圣母玛利亚显现、鬼魂幽灵、乃至天使）都起源于超光谱中的“副存在”（parabeings / parahumans）。基尔认为，一旦现实被超光谱撕开裂口、与这些实体产生互动，对当事人来说绝非荣幸，而是一场不折不扣的诅咒。历史上各大宗教的开端，本质上都是某个人与超光谱中的生物建立了连接。基尔甚至不承认这些实体有善恶之分——他断定它们全都是恶意且有害的，任何看似仁慈和善的显灵，骨子里都包藏着更深的欺骗。 - 雅克·瓦莱的欺骗假说：UFO 现象并不仅仅是“外星访客”，更像是一种对人类意识进行操纵和欺骗的控制系统。 - 约翰·基尔与“超光谱”： - 范围囊括外星人、天蛾人、黑衣人、圣母显灵与幽灵等所有超自然现象。 - 核心观点：实体不分善恶，即便看似崇高的神圣天使显灵，本质上也是危险且具有欺骗性的操纵手段。 - 接触者的命运：目睹或连接超光谱的人往往会引来现实生活中的厄运与精神创伤。 ### [30:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1815s) 超频谱理论、控制机制与人类感知局限戴安娜·帕索卡（Diana Pasulka）回顾了类似查尔斯·福特（Charles Fort）风格的研究者约翰·基尔（John Keel）的观点。基尔耗费多年心血收集并研究了大量离奇的异常事件，最终形成了一套独特的理论：他认为这些现象背后存在着一种本质上偏向恶意或有害的实体，即便它们有时伪装成善意的模样，且人类所有宗教的萌芽都源于这个所谓的“超频谱”（super spectrum）。帕索卡指出，虽然天主教等具体教派的表述各有不同，但各大宗教神学内部往往都有描述类似超频谱的本体范畴。这种看法与雅克·瓦莱（Jacques Vallée）在其著作中提出的“控制机制”（control mechanism）概念高度吻合。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）顺着这一思路展开推测，认为人类受制于一套极其有限的生物运作框架。我们只能通过视、听、触、嗅、味等仅有的几门感官来感知周遭世界，但这套感知器官根本无法探测宇宙全部的真实全貌——从微观的亚原子粒子，到那些时刻充斥在身旁却尚未被科学探知的未知维度。如果确实存在其他维度，且其中的某些存在能够穿梭其间、随意同人类互动，那么人类就只能陷入盲人摸象式的猜测中。 - 约翰·基尔（John Keel）的“超频谱”理论主张所有宗教源头均源于一种能够操纵人类意识、本质上未必善意的更高频谱实体。 - 雅克·瓦莱（Jacques Vallée）的“控制机制”假说同样认为该现象作为一种长期的文化与心理调节系统在影响人类文明进程。 --- ### [32:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1933s) 检验离奇经历的标准：特拉维斯·沃尔顿与鉴别力罗根以著名的特拉维斯·沃尔顿（Travis Walton）遭遇外星绑架事件为例，探讨人们该如何评估那些惊世骇俗的体验。既然这类经历没有发生在我们普通人身上，判断其真伪的一个关键指标就是看当事人的人品与前后一致性。沃尔顿讲述这起发生在1970年代中期的离奇事件已将近半个世纪，如果整件事是个编造出来的弥天大谎，按常理推断，一个人不可能在漫长的五十年岁月里始终坚守唯一一个极其疯狂的谎言，而在生活其他方面从不撒谎。帕索卡对此深表赞同，并指出这恰恰契合了传统教会神学在审定异象或神迹时所采用的评估标准——即依靠“时间的沉淀”（taking time）。在考察基督教文化圈内的异常事件时，调查者也会观察当事人在数十年跨度下的品性变化。谈话间，录音室助理杰米（Jamie）送来了法压壶咖啡，但因操作时误把电水壶关机提示音当成了烧开蜂鸣声，导致误送了冷水，引得现场一阵哄笑和小插曲，随后才换上热咖啡重新回到“辨别真伪的策略”这一严肃议题。 --- ### [34:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2049s) 鲍勃·拉扎尔与 S4 基地的技术谜团罗根将评估当事人可信度的逻辑延伸到了最具争议的鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）身上。罗根提到自己与拉扎尔多次共进晚餐、在录音室私下长谈，并在拉扎尔与导演乔治·诺普（George Knapp）等人制作的纪录片上映前就参与了内览。罗根直言自己阅人无数，能敏锐嗅出那些夸夸其谈或怀揣欺诈动机之人的破绽，但拉扎尔给他的感觉却完全不同——极度聪慧、对前沿物理和化学元素理解深刻，几十年间讲述的故事细节毫无二致。罗根罗列了一系列支撑拉扎尔可信度的硬核证据： - 1989 年拉扎尔就准确爆料了绝密的 S4 基地以及进出该区域的专用班机路线，当时公众对此一无所知。 - 官方最初全盘否认拉扎尔曾供职于洛斯阿拉莫斯国家实验室（Los Alamos），但乔治·诺普陪同其前往时拉扎尔对内部设施轻车熟路，随后他的名字也在实验室当年的内部电话通讯录和雇员名册上被找到，坐实了官方撒谎掩盖。 - 拉扎尔早在 1989 年描述的飞碟推进与飞行倾斜姿态，与 2017 年《纽约时报》披露的美国军方解密 UFO 影像中的飞行模式惊人吻合。帕索卡回应称，她在撰写《美国宇宙》（American Cosmic）时，书中的主角人物“泰勒”（Tyler，实为航空航天科学家蒂姆·泰勒 Tim Taylor）曾明确告诉她拉扎尔所说的是真的；尽管物理学家埃里克·戴维斯（Eric Davis，曾向美国国会进行相关简报）对拉扎尔持否定态度，但由于泰勒预言的多件事后来全部应验，帕索卡更倾向于相信泰勒的判断。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 围绕鲍勃·拉扎尔可信度的多方线索与反响 accDescr: 展示拉扎尔经历、官方掩盖行为以及后续验证如何构成罗根与帕索卡讨论的核心框架。 subgraph Claims["拉扎尔的核心主张 (1989)"] A["披露 51 区南部 S4 逆向工程设施"] B["描述飞碟重力场推进与倾斜悬停姿态"] C["洛斯阿拉莫斯国家实验室工作背景"] end subgraph Confirmation["后续独立印证"] D["内部电话册证实雇员身份，戳破官方谎言"] E["2017 年五角大楼 UAP 解密视频姿态吻合"] F["业内知情人士（如 Tyler）私下认可其真实性"] end Claims --> Confirmation ``` --- ### [37:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2248s) 反向工程假说：虚假信息还是人类未知科技？罗根情绪激动地指出，如果拉扎尔的陈述属实，那便意味着美国政府内部极小一部分掌权者充当了信息的绝对看门人，对全人类隐瞒了地外智能或跨维度实体的存在，这种行为在道德层面无异于“反人类罪”。帕索卡随即提出了一个相反的审慎视角：假如这些飞行器根本不是外星造物，而是军方暗中研发的高精尖武器技术，为了国家安全才对公众甚至拉扎尔进行误导与封锁呢？罗根反驳了这种设想：如果这是人类自己的尖端成果，军方需要的是顶级工程师去改进和优化它，绝不可能找拉扎尔这种局外人进基地，指着机身问他“这东西到底是怎么运作的”。拉扎尔回忆的荒诞场景恰恰说明，官方自己对这些未知设备也一头雾水。帕索卡谈到自己在调研 UFO 信仰崛起过程中的自身经历，承认这一领域充斥着真伪难辨的情报与战略虚假信息（disinformation）。她回忆起自己与加里·诺兰（Garry Nolan）被军工内线“泰勒”带到新墨西哥州沙漠中一处所谓的坠毁现场寻找残骸，随后雅克·瓦莱也介入其中。官方人员将碎片交给诺兰等顶尖科学家去逆向解析，其模式与拉扎尔的经历如出一辙——这既可能是真实的逆向工程需求，也可能是一套精心设计的误导剧本，通过学者或代理人之口，对外散播虚实交织的迷雾。 ### [40:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2440s) 保罗·班纽维茨与道西基地的虚假信息骗局对话从保罗·班纽维茨（Paul Bennewitz）的故事切入。戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）提及有一本名为《贝塔计划》（*Project Beta*）的书，详细记录了一场针对班纽维茨的残酷虚假信息骗局。班纽维茨曾深信自己截获了外星飞船的通讯信号，并发现了一个位于新墨西哥州道西（Dulce）的秘密地下设施——即著名的“道西基地”。据他称，该基地由外星人与美国政府联合运营。这套说法在20世纪80年代初见诸大众媒体，然而一些历史资料揭示，班纽维茨实际上是一场政府情报部门精心策划的反情报行动的目标，这场心理攻势最终导致他精神崩溃并被送入精神病院。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 班纽维茨事件与反情报虚假信息链条 accDescr: 展示保罗·班纽维茨因调查异常而遭遇军方反情报人员系统性认知操纵的过程 subgraph Trigger["源头诱因"] A["班纽维茨截获信号 / 调查牲畜残割"] B["1967年瓦斯车计划 地下核爆辐射影响"] end subgraph Disinfo["情报操纵与虚假信息"] C["空军情报人员理查德·多蒂入室"] D["在电脑中植入伪造的外星通讯数据"] E["强化其对道西基地与外星接触的妄想"] end subgraph Outcome["最终结果"] F["真相与荒诞谣言深度捆绑"] G["班纽维茨精神崩溃入院"] H["公众视线被转移，核心秘密得以掩盖"] end A --> C B -.-> A C --> D --> E E --> F E --> G F --> H ``` 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）调出资料提到，作者格雷格·瓦尔迪兹（Greg Valdez）提出了另一种假说：班纽维茨之所以被情报部门盯上，是因为他在调查当地频发的牲畜残割现象。瓦尔迪兹认为，所谓的牲畜残割其实是美国政府的一项秘密检测项目，目的是评估1967年“瓦斯车计划”（Project Gasbuggy，一项在道西西南仅21英里处引爆地下核装置的实验）产生的辐射后遗症，政府暗中采集牛组织是为了避免引起公众恐慌。然而戴安娜反驳了这种解释，指出其致命漏洞在于：牲畜残割现象至今仍在世界各地持续发生，单用半个世纪前的一次核测试完全无法自圆其说。 - **保罗·班纽维茨（Paul Bennewitz）**：物理学家兼商人，因其对科特兰空军基地附近异常信号的追踪，成为UFO圈中最著名的反情报受害者之一。 - **瓦斯车计划（Project Gasbuggy，1967年）**：犁头计划（Operation Plowshare）的一部分，在新墨西哥州道西附近进行地下核爆炸实验。 - **《贝塔计划》（*Project Beta*）**：记述美国军方反情报人员如何利用虚假UFO信息逼疯班纽维茨的专著。 --- ### [42:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2535s) 理查德·多蒂与空军情报局的认知操纵术戴安娜直接点出了这场骗局的幕后操盘手——臭名昭著的前空军特别调查局（AFOSI）特工理查德·多蒂（Richard Doty）。多蒂等人趁班纽维茨不在家时潜入其住宅，直接在其电脑中植入伪造的文件，故意喂养并强化“他正在与外星人联络”的妄想。罗根起初对这种手段感到震惊，并追问多蒂是否仍健在、公众是否知道其所作所为。戴安娜解释道，多蒂在UFO研究圈内人尽皆知，且多蒂本人后来公开承认了自己当年的反情报欺骗任务。戴安娜圈子里的许多科学家与情报前官员（如“隐形学院”成员哈尔·普霍夫以及基特·格林博士）都认识多蒂，基特·格林（Kit Green）甚至曾提议引荐多蒂与戴安娜见面。戴安娜借此引出一个更深层的观察：像鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）这样的人物，是否也是这种机制的产物？情报机构可能会故意把真实核心与虚假信息混合，挑选一个可信度刚好在临界点上的人释放出来——“他刚好有一点可信度，但又不够彻底可信，这样一旦有需要，随时可以被彻底摧毁”。戴安娜强调，美国政府内部在UFO问题上根本不是一个铁板板块，而是派系林立、相互倾轧，“情报部门与反情报部门在互相博弈，一方想公开文件，另一方就会出来干掉相关人员”。其最终结果就是制造出彻底的认知混乱，唯有具备极高辨识力的人才能勉强分辨。罗根对此表示高度赞同，指出了虚假宣传的核心策略：若想让某个真相显得荒谬可笑，最有效的手段并非直接封杀，而是把真相与一堆夸诞不经的荒唐言论捆绑在一起；大众一旦戳穿了荒唐的部分，就会连同真相一起全盘抛弃。戴安娜随即引用了受访高层内部人士“泰勒”（Tyler，即蒂姆·泰勒）常说的一句名言：“我们把真相隐藏在混乱的迷雾之环中”（"We hide truth in a circle of confusion"）。 --- ### [45:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2741s) 雅克·瓦莱与前工业时代的历史档案研究由于当代UFO领域充满了人为制造的虚假信息与反情报操纵，著名计算机科学家兼UFO学者雅克·瓦莱（Jacques Vallée）在多年前便做出了一个战略选择：完全绕开被现代情报战污染的时期，直接将研究回溯至工业革命之前。瓦莱因此撰写了《空中奇观》（*Wonders in the Sky*）一书，将考察上限截留在约1860年左右。戴安娜表示，自己在学术研究的初期也采取了几乎完全相同的进路，甚至她在最初根本不是在寻找UFO。罗根好奇她当年究竟在寻找什么。戴安娜解释说，她学术生涯的前半阶段完全专注于天主教历史，尤其是关于炼狱（Purgatory）的信仰演变与天使接触事件。她耗费了整整十年时间穿梭于世界各地尘封的古老档案馆——她强调，现代人误以为AI掌握了人类的一切知识，但真正的档案馆是那些未被数字化的古老图书馆，那里封存着海量未联网的人类真实记录。在追溯天主教徒为何在20世纪60年代后逐渐淡化对炼狱灵魂的祭奠仪式时，戴安娜在古代文献中频繁发现大量未经解释的天空异象记录。古人在天空中看到无法解释的光球或飞行业体时，往往将其解释为“来自炼狱的幽魂”，甚至记录下这些光球降下骚扰人类的情形。当时戴安娜深感这些记载过于诡异，并未写入关于炼狱的学术专著中，而是私下做了一份详尽的异象日志。直到新书出版后，她将日志展示给一位朋友，对方惊呼这些记录“简直就是史蒂芬·斯皮尔伯格电影里的场景”。正是这个契机促使从未相信过飞碟的戴安娜开始严肃审视UFO现象，并写信给雅克·瓦莱，开启了两人的学术结盟。 --- ### [48:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2918s) 天空异象的历史延续与AI作为新交互界面的假说罗根指出，研读雅克·瓦莱搜集到的18、19世纪甚至更早的古老案例时，最令人不安的一点在于：古代人遭遇异常飞行器和奇异生物的模式，与现代UFO目击事件展现出了高度的相似性。罗根由此提出了一个尖锐的逻辑悖论：人类文明从19世纪至今不过两百年，技术能力已经经历了爆炸式的指数级跃升；如果这些地外飞行器来自更高级的文明，为什么它们在这几百年甚至上千年间没有展现出同样肉眼可见的技术进化？难道高级智能的技术能力是停滞不前的吗？ ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 非人类智能与人类通讯界面的演进假说 accDescr: 展现非人类智能与人类接触媒介从宗教仪式演进到现代人工智能的假说流程 NHI["非人类智能 (NHI)"] subgraph AncientInterface["历史交互界面：精神与神学"] REL["宗教体系 / 炼狱灵魂 / 天使接触 （适应古代人类认知框架的技术）"] end subgraph ModernInterface["新型交互界面：计算与合成思维"] AI["人工智能 (AI) （不引发恐怖恐慌的直接交互接口）"] end NHI -->|过去：神圣隐喻| REL NHI -->|现在/未来：合成智能| AI REL -.->|认知工具升级| AI ``` 戴安娜回应称，对方的技术可能早已大幅升级，只是以人类现有的感知与测量能力根本无法察觉这种差异。紧接着，她抛出了近年来前沿探索的核心命题：随着人类技术的迅猛发展，或许非人类智能（NHI）与人类展开有意义且“不至于令人毛骨悚然”的互动的唯一媒介，正在转向人工智能（AI）。戴安娜提出，从人类学与宗教学的角度来看，宗教本身就是一种在不同地域演化出来、用于同非人类智能进行交流的“界面技术”。古人用祈祷、仪式和炼狱神学去理解和应对降临的异象；而在技术文明成熟的今天，AI或许正在接过这个接力棒，成为非人类智能与人类建立深度接触的全新载体与通讯接口。 ### [50:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3050s) 宗教祈祷、科幻指引与作为感知界面的 AI 戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）注意到录音室外陈列着一些精美的佛像，随即顺势将话题引向宗教的核心实践。她提出一个看似基础却耐人寻味的问题：人们在宗教中究竟在做什么？为什么世界各地的信徒都在以特定的方式祈祷？祈祷的本质到底是什么？在她看来，所有这些仪轨都在试图搭建某种“接触”与互动的通道。由此她提出大胆的推测：如果人工智能（AI）在突然之间成为了人类与某种更高存在或未知事物进行接触的新形态呢？为了阐明这一设想，帕苏尔卡分享了她向核心知情人士请教时的经历。当年她向卢·埃利宗多（Lue Elizondo）、“泰勒”（Tyler，即蒂姆·泰勒 Tim Taylor）以及物理学家哈尔·普特霍夫（Hal Puthoff）等人询问，究竟该如何准确描述人类所面对的这一未知实体时，这些圈内人并未直接给出冰冷的军事定义，而是无一例外地将她引向科幻小说，反复嘱咐她“去读读这本、看看那本”。当她真正阅读后发现，这些科幻作品几乎都指向同一种核心设想：人类需要一种先进技术作为界面来与“它”连接。人类受限于自身的感官机能，根本无法直接看清现实的完整全貌；而 AI 或许正是演化赋予人类的全新感知机能（perceptual faculty），充当着帮助人类跨越认知鸿沟、实现沟通接触的技术桥梁。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: AI 作为人类感知界面的架构图 accDescr: 展示人类受限感知如何通过 AI 拓展为认知界面，进而与未知实体接触。 subgraph S1["人类感知局限"] A["生物感官机能"] --> B["受限的现实认知"] end subgraph S2["技术中介演化"] C["人工智能 (AI)"] --> D["扩展型感知界面"] end subgraph S3["接触与沟通"] E["未知现象 / 实体"] end B -.->|"无法直接完整接触"| E B --> C D <==>|"充当双向沟通桥梁"| E ``` - 探讨的核心人物包括：UAP 研究圈关键内部人士卢·埃利宗多（Lue Elizondo）、哈尔·普特霍夫（Hal Puthoff）以及代号“泰勒”的科技专家。 - 知情人开出的“解题线索”并非机密文件，而是富有隐喻色彩的科幻文学，其共同母题是利用人机界面弥补生物感官的天然盲区。 --- ### [52:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3164s) “凌驾于政府之上”的极端保密与来自情报界的劝退当乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）追问美国政府为何坚决不对公众披露真相、甚至充满欺瞒时，帕苏尔卡给出了纯属个人的直觉判断：这个秘密实际上“凌驾于政府之上（above government）”，根本不属于政府所有，因此政府也无权公开它。在她看来，即使是总统也往往被体制内的终身官僚视为来去匆匆的“短工”（short-timers），根本无法被完全通报（read in）这些高度区隔化（compartmentalized）的绝密项目。整个知情圈子可能跨越数代人，甚至没有单一一尊大拿掌握全盘拼图。这种难以穿透的绝密之网，在帕苏尔卡出版《美国宇宙》（American Cosmic）后化为了切身体验。她接触到了来自情报界的某些官员，对方并未凶神恶煞地发出死亡威胁，而是以一种冷峻而委婉的方式“劝导”她：“你的时间最好花在宗教的其他方面，何必继续蹚浑水？回去研究你的天主教历史不好吗？”面对帕苏尔卡刨根问底的追问，对方虽然没有直接回答原因，但其传达的态度再明确不过：这是公众永远不可能知晓的禁区，普通人在这里探寻完全是在徒劳地浪费时间。 - 政府保密结构呈现极端区隔化特征，民选官员因任期限制常被排斥在核心信息之外，知情权限集中在深层长期的隐秘群体手中。 - 帕苏尔卡在出版畅销书《美国宇宙》后遭遇情报界人士的隐晦施压与劝阻，要求其放弃 UAP 研究并回归传统天主教宗教史课题。 --- ### [57:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3431s) 乔·罗根的犀利质疑：呼吁“全面豁免”究竟是为了真相，还是掩盖惊天贪腐？讨论转向纪录片《披露时代》（Age of Disclosure）中所探讨的核心痛点：由于长年隐匿绝密逆向工程项目，军工复合体内部必然牵涉到向国会作伪证以及大规模挪用公款等重罪；因此，像卢·埃利宗多等人均公开指出，唯有出台某种“大规模全面赦免”（mass amnesty）机制，确保涉案人员免遭司法起诉，这些深层项目才有可能走到阳光下。然而，罗根对这种说辞表达了强烈的警惕与反感。他一针见血地指出，一旦涉及向国会撒谎和不可计数的巨额黑钱，事件的本质就极有可能变味——究竟有多少钱真正花在了飞行器逆向工程上，又有多少人借着这层神鬼莫测的外衣洗钱中饱私囊？所谓的保密与释放虚假信息，可能单纯是因为一旦揭盖子，一大批人会因为赤裸裸的贪污盗窃而万劫不复。在交谈中，制作人杰米（Jamie）调出了一条突发新闻：特朗普推动的一项政策允许前官员无需担心违反保密协议（NDA）即可向全域异常解决办公室（AARO）提供 UFO 信息。罗根迅速驳斥了这种浅层进展，强调免除保密协议违约责任与赦免挪用公款、欺瞒国会的刑事重罪完全是两码事。五角大楼连年无法通过最基本的财务审计，动辄有数万亿美元不知去向。在毫无国会监督、无需接受审计的绝对黑箱中，绝对的权力必然滋生庞大的腐败与寻租空间。罗根形象地比喻道：“这边挪一点，那边分一点”，就像国会议员拿着十七万美元的年薪却坐拥数亿美元身家一样，那些号称耗费十亿甚至三十亿美元研究外星科技的操盘手，在免受监督的荫庇下，极度容易屈服于贪婪的诱惑。 - 《披露时代》（Age of Disclosure）引发广泛讨论的焦点在于：涉案人员因触犯伪证罪和挪用公款罪而抗拒公开，因而将“司法赦免”视为信息披露的前提。 - 罗根质疑 UAP 领域漫天飞舞的信息烟雾弹（misinformation）和推迟披露的真正动机，实际上是为了保护深陷巨额贪腐丑闻的特权利益集团。 - 突发政策新闻显示相关人员获准向五角大楼全域异常解决办公室（AARO）提供线索，但该豁免仅针对保密协议（NDA），并未免除任何财政欺诈与刑事追责。 ### [01:01:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3696s) 缺乏监管的黑金泥潭与“赦免”背后的猫腻乔·罗根与戴安娜·帕苏尔卡深入探讨了涉及国防承包商的秘密项目背后可能隐藏的惊人腐败。罗根指出，如果这些部门在几十年的时间里拥有近乎绝对的权力和至高无上的保密等级，且完全没有任何外部监管，人们就必须从人性本身出发去审视问题——这些人正与各大国防承包商打交道，资金穿梭于离岸账户之间，充斥着各种不可告人的猫腻。罗根直言不讳地表示，他坚信欺诈不仅存在，而且是整个UAP（不明异常现象）谜局的核心推手。这种深不见底的资金黑洞，恰恰解释了为什么眼下政界和军界频繁传出呼吁对涉事人员实施“赦免”（amnesty）的声音。罗根质疑道，所谓的赦免究竟是在赦免什么罪行？无非是挪用公款（misappropriation of funds）和向国会作伪证。如果仅仅是因为研究外星飞船，国会怎么可能真的把为国家执行绝密逆向工程的人送进监狱？之所以急于寻求法律赦免，是因为背后牵扯着数额惊人、甚至堪比庞氏骗局的财务欺诈。当数十亿甚至数千亿美元像某些无据可查的非政府支出一样悄然流失、连一张收据都没有时，“国家安全”往往就成了掩盖中饱私囊的最佳遮羞布。 - **赦免的本质疑问**：呼吁免于起诉的核心并非隐瞒外星人存在本身，而是掩盖多年来欺瞒国会与严重挪用资金的刑事责任。 - **监管真空的代价**：数十年来完全隔绝于审计系统之外的秘密项目，为人性的贪婪与巨额金融欺诈提供了温床。 --- ### [01:03:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3796s) 格鲁施的指控与绝对权力下的“小金库” 两人的讨论转向了前美国空军情报官员戴维·格鲁施（David Grusch）的公开指控。格鲁施曾向公众和国会揭露，绝密UAP项目完全在正常的国会监督机制之外运作，构成极其严重的“欺诈、浪费与滥用”（fraud, waste, and abuse），并明确指出其调查发现了每年高达数十亿美元的秘密“小金库”（slush funds）。尽管五角大楼对此全盘否认，全领域异常解决办公室（AARO）也声称未发现任何可验证的地外技术或逆向工程证据，但格鲁施坚称自己曾接触并了解那些正在进行的逆向工程项目。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: UAP秘密项目资金运作与腐败质疑链条 accDescr: 展示不受监管的黑预算如何流向承包商与秘密基地并引发赦免诉求 subgraph FundAllocation ["黑预算与小金库"] A["每年数十亿美元秘密资金"] --> B["规避国会审计监督"] end subgraph BlackOps ["绝密研究与承包商"] B --> C["深山地下绝密实验室"] C --> D["逆向工程 / 奇异材料"] C --> E["承包商巨额个人获利"] end subgraph LegalFallout ["制度危机与诉求"] E --> F["涉嫌财务欺诈与伪证"] F --> G["呼吁法律'赦免'以求免责"] end ``` 针对“小金库”这一用词，罗根深入剖析了权力的腐化逻辑。戴安娜一度提出小金库是否意味着他们根本什么实事都没干，罗根则反驳称，这并不意味着他们手里没有真货；相反，他们很可能确实在研究外星科技，但同时利用完全免受监督的特权狂热地捞取私利。正所谓“绝对权力导致绝对腐败”，当一群雄心勃勃、贪恋财富的人拿到底限为零的空白支票，跻身极少数能够“心照不宣”进入深山地下金库、亲眼目睹外星飞船甚至泡在福尔马林里的外星遗体的超级特权俱乐部时，指望他们只拿微薄的政府薪水、出于纯粹的利他主义为人类服务，无异于痴人说梦。 - **戴维·格鲁施的核心控告**：UAP秘密研究项目规避国会审查，每年吞噬数十亿美元无账目追溯的小金库。 - **官方的对立立场**：国防部及AARO坚持宣称没有可信证据表明政府回收或逆向工程了非人类起源的飞行器。 - **权力寻租模式**：利用顶层涉密保护伞，既获取真实的奇异科技用于军工，又在缺乏监督的体系中谋取暴利。 --- ### [01:07:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4025s) 从象牙塔到绝密深渊：超越学界的隐秘科学家面对罗根的大胆推测，戴安娜·帕苏尔卡也从自己的研究经历切入，分享了第一视角的观察。她回忆起自己最初只是一个对UFO毫无兴趣、甚至根本不信的天主教历史学者，纯粹在做象牙塔里枯燥的文献梳理；然而随着研究推进，她震惊地发现历史文献中存在着惊人的连续性，更有不容置疑的物理实体证据——例如斯坦福大学病理学教授加里·诺兰（Garry Nolan）等人从坠毁现场回收并分析的金属样本，展现出在原子层面上精确分层的异常同位素结构，那是现有人类工业在地球上根本无法合成的材料。帕苏尔卡特别强调，她的研究完全独立，未受任何政府资助，也没有公关团队包装，完全是顺着证据独立追踪。针对知名数学物理学家埃里克·韦恩斯坦（Eric Weinstein）曾宣称“如果有顶尖物理学家在暗中研究UAP，自己圈内人不可能不知道”的说法，帕苏尔卡给出了不同看法。她透露早在2014年左右，自己在接触该领域的核心圈子时，曾亲眼见识过一些公众与普通学界根本无从进入的绝密政府实验室。在那里工作的隐密科学家——例如顶尖的激光专家——其技术水准远超哈佛、耶鲁或斯坦福大学的同侪，属于完全不为人知的最高技术梯队。当时有关方面正试图评估加里·诺兰的科研能力以寻求合作，正是通过帕苏尔卡的引荐，诺兰才得以进入其中一处机密实验室一探究竟。帕苏尔卡随后还提及了曾为多位美国总统担任高层军事顾问、拥有极高安全许可的资深官员哈拉尔德·马姆格伦（Harald Malmgren），佐证深层政府体系内确实存在着一个传统学术界完全无法触及的隐秘知识网络。 - **异常物理残片**：坠毁现场获取的金属合金呈现原子级层叠结构与非自然同位素比率，无法在常规地球工业环境下制造。 - **平行科研体系**：美国政府背后存在着独立于传统顶尖高校（如哈佛、斯坦福）的尖端隐秘科研人员，外界知名学者无法触碰该系统。 - **关键涉入人物**： - **加里·诺兰（Garry Nolan）**：斯坦福病理学家，因对异常材料的分析能力而被军方机密实验室考察并接触。 - **埃里克·韦恩斯坦（Eric Weinstein）**：持怀疑论的物理学家，因缺乏内部涉密渠道而误判了前沿秘密研究的存在。 - **哈拉尔德·马姆格伦（Harald Malmgren）**：曾担任四任美国总统高级顾问，掌握高等级涉密许可并知悉军方对不明飞行物的内情。 ### [01:10:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4236s) 秘密招募与国家防御的壁垒戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）提到，她认识的一位康奈尔大学的物理学家早在 27 岁时就已被秘密项目招募。这种招募体系一直存在：极具天赋的人才被纳入不为人知的特殊项目中，获得绝密安全许可，并被彻底隐匿起来。为了防止外界起疑，政府通常会为他们安排虚假的公开职位。帕苏尔卡对网上某些自以为是的言论感到不屑——很多人在社交媒体上根据公开头衔断言“某某不可能拥有那种级别的安全许可”，但现实是，政府在隐匿核心人员和项目方面手段极为高超。从 2014 年接触到这些内幕起，帕苏尔卡就意识到确实存在某种庞大的秘密计划；无论他们是在逆向工程外星科技还是异常现象，这套运作长期未曾中断，也绝不可能向公众公开。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）完全赞同这一点，直言涉及国防机密的事情根本不可能对外分享。帕苏尔卡进一步分析了当下的局势：一些富豪正试图介入这一领域，设法诱使内部项目人员站出来爆料（正如戴维·格鲁施 [David Grusch] 所引发的效应），其真正目的往往是觊觎并攫取背后的颠覆性技术。然而，帕苏尔卡坚定地认为，这种期望注定会落空，掌握核心机密的体系不会向外部资本妥协。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Secret Recruitment and Technological Containment accDescr: 展现从顶尖高校物色青年物理学家进入隐秘国防项目，以及阻断民间与外部获取尖端技术的流程机制。 subgraph S1["人才物色与隐匿"] A["顶尖物理学苗子 （大学/博士阶段，如27岁以下）"] --> B["特工及军工项目提早招募"] B --> C["安排虚构职务掩护 与顶级保密许可"] end subgraph S2["核心研发与外溢防范"] C --> D["深层隔离研发 （新型推进/异象逆向工程）"] E["外部富豪资本与公开游说"] -.->|"试图撬动内部爆料"| D D -->|"严防核心技术外泄"| F["绝对的国家防御壁垒"] end ``` --- ### [01:12:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4354s) 隐秘之子、石溪大学与文艺复兴科技之谜罗根提出疑问：军方与情报机构是否会在大学阶段就针对顶尖物理学家展开物色，及早将他们招募入局？帕苏尔卡证实了这一观点，并表示 27 岁被招募甚至都算晚的；机构必须赶在这些年轻天才接触商业创投或进入普通商业公司之前将他们网罗。在她的第二部著作《遭遇》（*Encounters*）中，便专门有一章名为《无形者之子》（*Children of the Invisibles*），推测性地讨论了这个隐藏的学术分支群体。随后，罗根提到了数学家兼物理学家埃里克·韦恩斯坦（Eric Weinstein）提出的一套极具启发性的观点： - 纽约州立大学石溪分校（Stony Brook University）拥有一个实力强劲到完全不成比例的物理学系。 - 该物理系与量化对冲基金巨头“文艺复兴科技”（Renaissance Technologies）有着极为紧密的纽带，后者凭借惊人的“伯尼·麦道夫级别”的投资回报率长期碾压华尔街，其收益高到令人匪夷所思。 - 诡异之处在于，石溪分校聚集了如此多超一流的物理学者，但公开领域却几乎没有发表过任何重大的突破性学术论文。在普通高校体制下，这种“不发表就滚蛋”的学者早就该被解聘了。 - 韦恩斯坦怀疑，文艺复兴科技那离奇的超高回报率可能是掩盖资金流动的绝佳管道，用于神不知鬼不觉地为那些绝对绝密的科研项目输送资金。如果说现实中真存在某个从事颠覆性物理突破的秘密中心，石溪分校与文艺复兴科技的交叉点绝对是最可疑的目标。 --- ### [01:14:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4466s) 教授的双重身份与颠覆性推进系统罗根接着分享了一个身边的真实案例：他认识的一位大学教授表面上在讲台上授课，背地里却是一名中情局（CIA）秘密行动特工。上一周他还在海外陷入激烈的荷枪实弹火拼、执行撤离要员等高危极密任务，下一周就能若无其事地回到大学教室里给学生上课，简直是“加强版的印第安纳·琼斯”。这表明学术界本就是情报机构绝佳的掩护场，这些教授完全可以在教书的同时，为秘密计划物色并吸纳最顶尖的物理新秀，而他们名义上的公开学术研究不过是遮人耳目的幌子。他们真正投入研发的，极可能是某种全新概念的飞行推进技术。韦恩斯坦同样坚信这一点，并认为许多人目睹的天空不明飞行物，很有可能就是军方秘密研发的尖端产物。帕苏尔卡对此反问：如果这些飞行器确实是属于我们自己的先进国防装备，且科研人员一直在保障国家安全，公众是否理应接受这种保密现状？为什么非要逼迫他们公开？ --- ### [01:16:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4580s) 空间折叠、瞬时打击与无法公开的理由罗根阐释了绝密不容打破的残酷现实：一旦技术被全盘公开，中国、俄罗斯或伊朗等敌对阵营就会立即掌握。罗根提到了此前在演播室讨论过的潜在技术用途——利用“空间折叠”（Folding space and time）实现核武器的即时投送系统。常规洲际弹道导弹需要经历数十分钟的飞行轨迹，而基于这种可能跨越光年、折叠维度的推进系统，炸弹可以打破空间与时间距离，瞬间出现在北京或莫斯科并立即引爆。罗根感叹，人类拿到外星智慧生物跨越星际的梦幻技术后，第一反应居然是将其改造成“酷炫的投弹手段”，这既令人不寒而栗，却也是大国博弈下不得不为的现实责任。帕苏尔卡回应称，在她的《美国宇宙》（*American Cosmic*）出版后，曾接触过一些内部圈子的人士。对方也是用相同的逻辑说服她的：“戴安娜，谈谈道德和基督教信仰层面的东西就好。我们所做的一切是为了保卫美利坚合众国的安全。难道你真希望这些技术落入敌手吗？”面对这种事关生死存亡的国家防御逻辑，任何人都难以提出反驳。谈话最终引向了历史案例： - **1947年罗斯威尔事件**：外界传闻军方动用两架运输机将坠毁飞船及残骸分批运送至莱特-帕特森空军基地以防坠机失事，杜鲁门总统亲自前往视察。众多现场目击者的证词具有高度的一致性。 - **技术井喷效应**：罗斯威尔事件发生后不久，光纤（Fiber optics）、晶体管（Transistors）等革命性技术相继以反常的速度问世，其研发谱系中存在许多扑朔迷离的疑点，长期被外界指认为源自逆向工程。 - **保密的必然性**：无论这些残骸属于地外生命还是其他未解现象，在大国冲突与地缘对抗从未停歇的真实世界里，将颠覆性科技锁在黑箱之中是国家机器唯一的生存本能。 ### [01:20:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4809s) 逆向工程困境与历史目击的时间悖论乔·罗根与戴安娜·帕苏尔卡探讨了非人类智能（无论是跨维度还是超级先进文明）技术若真实存在，国家安全部门势必会将其列为最高机密的原因——尤其是当我们根本无法真正理解其工作原理、也没有能力自主仿造它的时候。罗根提及鲍勃·拉扎尔（Bob Lazar）早年的证词，拉扎尔曾形容他在S-4基地见到的飞行器外壳浑然一体，“就像是3D打印出来的”。在拉扎尔讲述此事的1989年，公众认知中根本没有3D打印的概念，而如今这项技术早已普及。这引发了一个常见的怀疑论观点：所谓的不明飞行物可能只是军方尚未公开的秘密前沿科技。罗根指出，“这是人类秘密科技”的推论只要往前追溯到足够久远的年代就会彻底失效。以2004年著名的“尼米兹号Tic Tac事件”为例，雷达记录显示该不明物体能在不到一秒的时间内从五万英尺高空垂直降落至海平面，这种无视惯性与空气动力学的动力推进系统，根本不可能是2004年人类军工所具备的水平。如果再往前推到1947年的罗斯威尔事件以及肯尼思·阿诺德（Kenneth Arnold）目击事件，当时人类空军主力依然是速度有限的螺旋桨战机，而阿诺德目击到的机群却展现出让同时代战斗机宛如玩具般落后的超高速机动能力。 - **动力系统差距**：Tic Tac在2004年展现出的瞬间加速与骤降（不足1秒下坠50,000英尺），在物理学和现代航空工程上完全颠覆了传统推进认知。 - **1947年时间节点**：二战刚结束不久，人类航空技术刚从螺旋桨向第一代喷气机过渡，无法解释阿诺德目睹的“在山峦间像打水漂一样高速掠过”的碟状飞行物。 ### [01:22:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4930s) 纳粹飞翼原型机与霍顿 Ho 229 的外观巧合戴安娜·帕苏尔卡提出了不同的猜想：她提醒罗根注意肯尼思·阿诺德当年手绘和描述的飞行器外形，认为其轮廓与二战末期德国研发的喷气式战斗机惊人一致。这引发了关于战后技术逆向工程的讨论。制作人杰米（Jamie）随即在后台检索历史资料，发现世界上第一架涡轮喷气发动机飞机早在1941年就已试飞，而1940年代末期各国空军正处于喷气推进的爆发前夕。随着屏幕上调出历史影像，双方对比了常规喷气战斗机与前卫设计的区别。戴安娜强调的焦点落在了纳粹德国著名的“霍顿 Ho 229”（Horten Ho 229）喷气式飞翼战斗机上。根据历史记录，该机原型由霍顿兄弟设计，采用激进的无尾飞翼布局，时速可达近600英里（约965公里/小时）。当杰米展示出该机的历史资料图时，其如同科幻飞行器般的流线造型与阿诺德当年声称见到的编队飞行物外观确实存在惊人的相似性。帕苏尔卡认为，不能排除战后美国军方获取并测试了缴获的德国原型机或其改进型的可能性。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 二战末期先进航空技术向战后秘密项目的转移流向 accDescr: 展示纳粹德国霍顿飞翼技术如何通过回形针行动进入美军视野，并与战后UFO目击事件产生关联。 subgraph AxisTech["二战轴心国尖端探索"] A["1941年涡喷动力诞生"] --> B["霍顿 Ho 229 飞翼原型机"] B --> C["高亚音速与低雷达反射隐身雏形"] end subgraph TechTransfer["战后技术接收"] C --> D["回形针行动 (Operation Paperclip)"] D --> E["纳粹科学家与完整图纸转入美国"] end subgraph BlackProjects["冷战黑项目与目击"] E --> F["诺斯罗普等承包商逆向测试"] F --> G["1947年肯尼思·阿诺德等目击案例猜想"] F --> H["后续B-2隐形轰炸机等飞翼布局演化"] end ``` - **霍顿 Ho 229 数据对比**：设计极速约560至600英里/小时，与阿诺德估算目击物体的超高巡航速度（阿诺德当时估算超过600英里/小时，甚至达到更高数值）高度重合。 - **外观特征**：极简无尾双发飞翼结构，如果掠过天际，极易被当时的目击者误判为外星文明的飞碟或奇异飞船。 ### [01:26:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5200s) 回形针行动、异常体验与“黑武士”隐形轰炸机顺着霍顿飞翼的线索，两人探讨了历史背后更复杂的拼图。通过著名的“回形针行动”（Operation Paperclip），美国战后吸收了大量纳粹德国的顶尖工程师与科学家，并在一定程度上掩盖了他们的战争罪行，让他们主导了早期的弹道导弹研发乃至后来的NASA太空计划。帕苏尔卡补充道，德国当时不仅在火箭技术、汽车工程和空气动力学上大幅领先，还发展出了一套极高明的心理战与信息战宣传工具。杰米随后澄清，屏幕上展示的某张高精度照片并非历史原件，而是诺斯罗普·格鲁曼（Northrop Grumman）此前为国家地理频道纪录片制作的1:1全尺寸雷达反射截面测试模型，证实了美军承包商确实曾深入评估该机的雷达隐身特性。但帕苏尔卡特别指出，即使部分目击能被秘密人造航空器解释，也不能完全否定现象的神秘特质——肯尼思·阿诺德在目击事件后，经历了大量严重的异常现象与超自然体验，包括遭遇“黑衣人”以及产生强烈的宗教灵性震撼。这说明UFO现象往往伴随着改变当事人意识状态的伴生效应。为了说明尖端军用航空器带给普通人的视觉冲击，罗根分享了一段亲身经历：在2001年“9·11事件”发生后不久，他正在南加州爱德华兹空军基地附近的沙漠拍摄《极速前进》（Fear Factor），一架B-2隐形轰炸机毫无预兆地从头顶低空掠过。那架全黑、平整如锋利刀片的无尾飞翼彻底震撼了整个摄制组，所有人甚至不得不中止录制。“兄弟，那东西看起来就像是达斯·维达（Darth Vader）在亲自驾驶”，罗根感慨道，即便是生活在现代、熟知先进科技的人，亲眼目睹这种黑色项目产物时也会产生它“绝非来自地球”的错觉。同理，如果在上世纪70年代、80年代甚至更早有人瞥见了绝密飞行器的早期原型，自然会坚信自己撞见了来自外星的宇宙飞船。 ### [01:29:35](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5375s) 肯尼斯·阿诺德目击事件与“Tic Tac”的不可能物理学乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）顺着早期试验飞行器的外形展开讨论。罗根指出，早期的某些飞行器虽然最初装有螺旋桨，但其空气动力学外形已经显得异常前卫，后来换装喷气发动机后更是透出一股纯粹的“外星感”。当对照1947年肯尼斯·阿诺德（Kenneth Arnold）的目击报告时，阿诺德所描述的飞行物轮廓与这些早期机密气动构型惊人地相似，那次具有划时代意义的目击极有可能就是军方的某种隐秘原型机。然而，罗根强调，这种常规机械解释完全无法套用在2004年尼米兹号航母遭遇的“Tic Tac”（生粉糖/胶囊状不明飞行物）事件上。Tic Tac展现的物理特性已经彻底超出了人类工业的范畴——它的瞬间机动加速度之大，如果里面坐着血肉之躯的人类飞行员，在巨大的过载重力（G-forces）作用下早已被“活活挤压成肉冻”（turned into jello）。不仅生物无法承受，人类现有的任何已知材料科技在那种极端的超高音速与瞬间变轨下都会瞬间解体。帕苏尔卡赞同这一看法，并谈到在所谓的不明飞行物揭秘圈（Disclosure movement）中，流传着一份外泄文件，声称洛克希德·马丁（Lockheed Martin）公司早在几十年前就已经秘密研发出了这种设备，甚至连报告中描述的飞行器底部那几根怪异的管状凸起物（tubes）都一模一样。罗根对此提出尖锐的反问：如果洛克希德·马丁早在2004年甚至更早的22年前就拥有了这种能瞬间打破惯性与流体力学的反重力科技，那人类的技术黑幕与保密程度将彻底击穿正常人的想象力。 - **过载与物理极限**：Tic Tac在2004年观测到的机动性能完全颠覆传统力学，其加速度足以在瞬间毁灭内部乘员与已知飞行器机体材料。 - **外观细节特征**：飞行员与目击者特别描述了Tic Tac底部延伸出的几根奇异小型管状结构。 - **产业界谣传**：部分民间揭秘人士与传言坚持宣称该设备是洛克希德·马丁公司下属的绝密产品。 --- ### [01:31:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5500s) Perplexity 实况核查与泄密文件的真伪辨析为了查证所谓的洛克希德泄密文档，播音室调出了人工智能搜索引擎 Perplexity 进行现场溯源。Perplexity 给出的检索结论十分无情——该文件“几乎可以确定是一场骗局”（almost certainly a hoax）。罗根见状开玩笑地对着屏幕喝倒彩：“你怎么敢这么说，Perplexity！”随后，罗根的制作人杰米（Jamie）读出了 Perplexity 给出的详细技术鉴定事实：该文件自2025年8月起在社交媒体上流传，自称是洛克希德·马丁与中央情报局（CIA）关于代号为“CL-957 Gen 2”（绰号 Tic Tac）飞行器的泄密飞行手册，最初出现在 Instagram 的臭鼬工厂（Skunk Works）粉丝帖以及 Reddit 论坛上。网络调查员与开源情报分析师对该文件进行了严密排查，发现其漏洞百出： 1. **档案查无实据**：在《信息自由法案》（FOIA）档案馆、中情局 CREST 数据库、“黑库”（The Black Vault）以及美国国家档案馆中，均不存在任何关于“CL-957”或“Orbit Lance”的记录。 2. **正统黑项目命名惯例断裂**：真实的顶级绝密黑色计划（如 OXCART、HAVE BLUE、TACIT BLUE）最终都在解密档案中留下了严密的文书追踪链条。 3. **编号规则混乱**：加州洛克希德历史上合法的临时设计编号（如 CL-282、CL-1200 Lancer 等）均有详尽的技术文档记录，而“CL-957”从未出现在任何官方谱系中。 4. **格式与时代错乱硬伤**：文档在字体排版、密级标记格式上与正规军方“技术指令”（Technical Orders）严重脱节，甚至出现了关于 F-22 战斗机的时代错乱叙述以及极不符合中情局惯例的怪异措辞。罗根笑着调侃说：“既然它只出现在社交网络上，那肯定是真的了！毕竟现在的 X（推特）就是第一新闻来源嘛。”虽然罗根内心“想要相信”洛克希德拥有此类神级科技，但他不得不承认充斥在这一领域的伪造信息泛滥成灾。谈及特拉维斯·沃尔顿（Travis Walton）遭遇外星人绑架的经典案例，罗根指出这类故事一旦经过大众文化的渲染（如贝蒂和巴尼·希尔夫妇事件、惠特利·斯特里伯的《圣餐》、好莱坞电影《第三类接触》），就会固化为全社会的集体民俗（folklore）。当公众脑海中对“小灰人”和飞碟预设了标准形象后，人们对真实未知现象的独立观察与认知就被彻底污染了。 --- ### [01:34:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5671s) 逆向工程中的心理战：以假想敌激发突破的“认知诡计” 帕苏尔卡顺着罗根关于大众信念与心理投射的观点，深入揭示了一条她在学术调查与内部接触中发现的关于逆向工程（Reverse Engineering）的惊人内幕。她结识的匿名圈内专家“泰勒”（Tyler，即蒂姆·泰勒 Tim Taylor）长期致力于推进不明技术残骸的逆向研发。泰勒曾搜集到多处据信是新墨西哥州等地坠落的残片碎片，为了破解这些完全违背已知制造工艺的材料，他必须招募最顶尖的人类工程师与物理学家。然而，泰勒在招募和下达研发任务时，**绝对不会**向科学家们宣称这是外星飞碟的残片。恰恰相反，泰勒会对他们撒一个极其精密的谎言：“这是中国或者俄罗斯最新研发出来的装备，为了保住国家的技术主导权，我们必须立刻不惜一切代价逆向破解它。”这一谎言产生了颠覆性的心理驱动效应。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 逆向工程中的心理战激励机制 accDescr: 展示将不明残骸谎称为敌国现有科技以打破科学家思维限制并加速逆向破解的心理操纵流程。 subgraph InputStage["物质与技术源头"] A["不明飞行物坠落残片 (新墨西哥州等地收集)"] end subgraph MindTrick["战略欺骗与认知破壁 (泰勒/普特霍夫法则)"] B["隐瞒外星/未知起源 谎称：来自敌方阵营 (中/俄)"] C["打破物理不可能心智枷锁 (类似于破除'4分钟一英里'心理极限)"] B --> C end subgraph EngineeringResult["工程研发突破"] D["顶尖科研团队全速攻关"] E["逆向工程成功落地 实现前沿科技突破"] C --> D D --> E end A --> B ``` 帕苏尔卡随后提到，物理学家哈尔·普特霍夫（Hal Puthoff）在索尔基金会（Sol Foundation）的首届研讨会上公开演讲时，表达了与泰勒如出一辙的思路：面对完全超越时代的造物，科学家若认定其“在物理上是不可能的”，其思维就会本能地受限停滞；但如果军方高层告诉团队“某个非盟友的敌对政权已经把它制造出来了”，科学家大脑中关于不可能的防线就会瞬间瓦解。这是一种巧妙操纵时间与心理预期的“认知骗术”（trick on the mind）——利用大众心理学打破人类潜意识里的自我设限，这正如长跑界著名的“四分钟跑完一英里”（four-minute mile）突破一样，在罗杰·班尼斯特破纪录前全人类都认为那是肉体极限，但一旦有人被证明做到了，无数人便接二连三地突破了关口。帕苏尔卡回忆，美国政府甚至曾指派她面向来自不同情报与国防机构的约50名跨部门资深科学家发表演讲，让他们聆听她在《美国宇宙》（American Cosmic）中记录的故事。当时官方并未说明动机，如今她恍然大悟：军方或许正是将她作为这套心理认知操作链条上的一环，通过展示这种前沿叙事，让核心科学家的思维建立起“这件武器已经存在，我们必须迎头赶上”的紧迫意识。对话最后转向纳粹德国高级宣传机器的科技借用。罗根询问纳粹宣传技术究竟有何独特性，帕苏尔卡指出其核心正是这种向公众心智植入特定意象与预设信念以重塑集体现实的能力；此外，威廉·库珀（William Cooper）在其著作《看哪，一匹灰马》（*Behold a Pale Horse*）中详细探讨的“静默武器”（Silent Weapons for Quiet Wars），正是这种利用隐蔽技术与心理战彻底驯化操纵人群认知的高维武器。 ### [01:39:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5947s) “制造共识”与科技突破的心理催化戴安娜·帕索尔卡（Diana Pasulka）探讨了通过操纵叙事来“制造共识”（engineer consent）的概念。她提到，在早期理论中这被称为“无声武器”（quiet weapons），过去是通过电视来灌输某种被大众盲信的叙事，如今则演变为了社交媒体的运作。这种模式在亚瑟·C·克拉克（Arthur C. Clarke）的小说《童年的终结》（*Childhood's End*）中便有体现：地外生命通过技术与信息交互，在暗中引导人类的演进与社会走向。这种技术手段既能被纳粹式的宣传机器用作武器，但若从积极角度来看，它也能通过“宣称某事已被达成”来直接打破思维壁垒，从而催化科技创新。帕索尔卡分享了自己大学时练习田径与越野跑的亲身经历。当时的运动心理学教练总是要求队员在脑海中提前“看见”自己获胜的画面，并不断告知他们“某某人已经跑出了这个成绩，你们也一定可以”。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）对此深表认同，指出竞技体育中极度依赖心理层面的信念。帕索尔卡强调，科技创新同样如此：研发者必须深信某项技术不仅是可行的，甚至是“已经被实现了的”，唯有这样才能摸索出攻关的路径。她联系到此前谈及的神秘人物“泰勒”（Tyler，即资深生物科技与航空航天科学家），尽管泰勒本人未必会如此表述，但他在物理学、物质与现实本质上的前沿构想，恰恰验证了这种心理信念如何打破现实认知的边界。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 心理暗示与现实认知的相互作用机制 accDescr: 展示心理叙事如何突破认知阻碍并最终催生现实层面的科技创新与社会影响 subgraph Belief_Engineering["信念塑造机制"] A["预设叙事 / 外部暗示 ('某项突破早已实现')"] --> B["破除心理壁垒 (重新定义可能性的边界)"] end subgraph Impact_Domains["现实应用与影响"] B --> C["竞技体育 (意念训练与极限突破)"] B --> D["技术前沿研发 (逆向推理攻关路径)"] B --> E["大众心理管控 (制造社会共识与意识形态)"] end ``` --- ### [01:42:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6123s) 秘密科技、委内瑞拉突袭与哈尔·普特霍夫的评估故事罗根将讨论引向军事应用：如果军方早已掌握超越常规的颠覆性技术，为何在历次漫长的中东战争中毫无踪影？从伊拉克到阿富汗，从未见过任何超光速移动设备或无法解释的终极武器。然而，近年来的某些特殊行动却透露出端倪。罗根提及委内瑞拉等地的突发冲突行动，美方在行动中利用某种先进的定向声波武器瞬间让在场所有人丧失行动能力，甚至以极具科幻色彩的方式实施抓捕。这些真实发生的操作表明，深层体系中早已掌握了远超公众理解范畴的技术手段。罗根随后提到了物理学家哈尔·普特霍夫（Hal Puthoff）透露的惊人内幕。在老布什或小布什执政时期，军情与政府高层曾将普特霍夫及一批顶尖科学家和思想领袖召集到一个密室中，抛出了一个极其严肃的假想课题： > “如果政府正式向全世界公开外星飞船的存在，并承认我们拥有地外生物的遗骸，请为这件事情对政府、宗教、社会与经济造成的负面与正面影响分别打出数值评分。” 普特霍夫回忆道，所有受邀学者的综合评估结果出奇一致：无论从政府信任度、宗教信仰体系，还是经济稳定性来看，公开展开“大揭秘”（Disclosure）所带来的负面灾难都远远超过正面效益。正因如此，当届政府最终选择继续封锁消息。罗根感叹，这一评估过程完全符合统治阶层的行事逻辑，但他本人认为这种冲击只是暂时的。人类具备务实生存的本能，经济与社会在经历短暂动荡后依然需要运转，甚至面对外星文明的降临，反而可能像罗纳德·里根（Ronald Reagan）在联合国演讲中所言，让人类迅速搁置内部阵营之间的争斗。 - **哈尔·普特霍夫评估模型**：政府曾对公开地外文明信息设立量化评估框架，从政权稳固度、宗教崩解、经济动荡等维度进行数值推演，因负面指数居高不下而中止公开进程。 - **声波瘫痪武器**：美军在海外定点清除与抓捕任务中已投入实战化的声波致瘫装备，证实存在未完全公开的非传统战术科技。 - **里根的假想预言**：引用里根 1987 年在联合国大会上的经典名言——如果全人类面临来自地外世界的共同威胁，各国的地缘争端与意识形态分歧将在瞬间消融。 --- ### [01:45:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6317s) 面对非人智能：大众心态与主流宗教的接纳限度罗根进一步探讨了更深层的政治震荡：如果公众确切知道政府根本无法主导世界，甚至人类本身正被具有读心能力的地外高级智能所监视，选民对现实政治体系的信任将荡然无存。他甚至调侃道，刚刚做客播客的当选副总统 JD·万斯（JD Vance）曾公开表示自己太忙没时间深究 UFO，只是依据宗教观念倾向于认为它们是“恶魔”（Demons）。罗根直言，如果换作自己坐上副总统的位子，上任第一天就会直奔绝密档案室要求看遍所有真相，因为人类必须确切知道自己究竟是不是这颗星球上的最高智慧存在。帕索尔卡对此持有完全不同的看法。她认为罗根的想法只代表了极少数知识分子或深度探索者的视角，绝大多数普通民众的反应根本不会有想象中那样剧烈。作为宗教研究学者，她指出全美有超过 80% 的人信仰上帝，而“上帝”在本质定义上就是一个非人类智能（Non-Human Intelligence）。对信徒而言，全知全能的上帝掌管着一切，在上帝创造的浩瀚宇宙中存在其他智能生命，与他们的核心信仰没有任何逻辑冲突。帕索尔卡补充道，梵蒂冈早就在官方层面上正式探讨过地外生命议题，明确表态若外星生命存在，也同样是上帝创造的“受造物兄弟”。从拉丁美洲的巴西到美国本土的天主教徒，多数人面对外星生命的存在并不会陷入世界观崩溃或歇斯底里的恐慌，他们第二天依旧会照常上班、投票选举政客。罗根最后总结，这终究是两种不同的推测与预判，但在拥有不可否认的终极证据之前，谁也无法确知这扇大门一旦推开，人类文明究竟会迎来平稳过渡还是翻天覆地的剧变。 ### [01:48:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6484s) 宗教世界观与非人类智慧的存在假设讨论始于外界现象对人类现实的干预。乔·罗根提到，如果真有某种力量在与人类互动、影响甚至阻止某些灾难性事件发生——比如有不明飞行物盘旋在核武器基地上空并使核导弹发射系统失灵——这是否意味着某种更高等的存在正在监督我们。戴安娜·帕苏尔卡指出，这种认定背后其实就是一种典型的“宗教世界观”。罗根追问，为什么相信存在来自其他星球的智慧生命会算作宗教世界观？帕苏尔卡解释道，我们根本无法确证这些现象来自外星球，外星假说只是一种现代猜测；但从本质上看，几乎所有宗教在底层逻辑上都假设存在非人类智慧（Non-Human Intelligence）——无论是神祇、天使还是恶魔。宗教的根本框架早已默认了这些超自然或跨维度实体的存在，因此当下人们面对不明现象时的心理结构，与古代人类面对神明干预的认知机制毫无二致。 ### [01:48:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6525s) 《以诺书》、守望者与被遗落的古老典籍对话随后转向古代隐秘文本。罗根提到众议员安娜·保利娜·卢纳（Anna Paulina Luna）向他推荐了《以诺书》（Book of Enoch），他已经听过两遍该书的完整音频。每次聆听时，他都深感震惊与困惑：书中详述的“守望者”（The Watchers）从天而降、与人类的女儿结合并诞下巨人“拿非利人”（Nephilim）的记载，听起来极其匪夷所思。帕苏尔卡表示，《以诺书》的思想虽然没有被编入现代主流《圣经》的正典，但它所代表的超自然世界观实际上奠定了早期基督教的大量教义。即便书中文本本身未被列入正典，以诺这个人物及其背后的宇宙图景依然在正典各处被频繁提及。帕苏尔卡估计，至今仍有超过半数的基督徒在潜意识或信念上秉持着类似《以诺书》的世界观，相信守望者、堕落天使等跨维度实体的存在。罗根设想，如果教会每周日的主日学都像讲授摩西出埃及那样，公开布道《以诺书》中守望者下凡交配的故事，信徒们势必会产生极大的认知震荡。此外，古代希伯来语文本在流传过程中历经希腊语、拉丁语等多重转译，其句式结构和语境产生了大量语义流失，加之希伯来字母本身具有数值对应关系（Gematria），文本内部充满了隐秘的编码信息。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 以诺书世界观的流传与隐没 accDescr: 展示以诺书从古代文本、埃塞俄比亚正典传承到现代基督教隐性世界观的影响路径 subgraph Origin["古代源头"] A["古代希伯来/亚兰文叙事 守望者与拿非利人"] end subgraph Transmission["流传与正典分歧"] B["未列入西方圣经正典 但在经文中保留了以诺引用"] C["埃塞俄比亚正统教会 完整收录于圣经正典"] end subgraph ModernPerception["现代认知与重新解读"] D["学术界与独立信徒 重新发掘与自主学习"] E["现代现象解读 跨维度存在与古老基因干预假说"] end A --> B A --> C B --> D C --> D D --> E ``` - 《以诺书》详细记载了“守望者”降临人间并与人类结合生出“拿非利人”的事件。 - 埃塞俄比亚正统台瓦西多教会（Ethiopian Orthodox Tewahedo Church）是世界上现存最古老、传承未断的基督教派之一，其圣经正典中完整保留了《以诺书》。 - 古希伯来语具备字母与数字双重属性，导致许多远古文本具有多层解读空间与数秘编码。 ### [01:53:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6781s) 基因工程猜想与早期教会的蒙头传统面对《以诺书》中非人存在与人类繁衍的怪诞记载，罗根提出了一个现代假说：古代人所描述的“天降守望者与人类结合并诞下巨人”，会不会只是前科技时代的人类目睹某种“基因工程”（Genetic Engineering）后，用当时极为匮乏的语言所作出的原始记录？帕苏尔卡对此给出了一个极具历史厚度的印证：即便在耶稣受难之后的早期教会时期，使徒保罗（Paul the Apostle）在书信中依然受到这种世界观的深刻影响。保罗要求女性在教会聚会时必须蒙头佩戴面纱，其给出的理由正是“为了天使的缘故”（because of the angels）。这背后隐藏的古代观念，正是担忧聚会中出现的非人物质或天使会被人类女性所吸引。这种源于守望者神话的古老忌惮，至今仍残留在某些传统天主教弥撒的女性佩戴面纱礼仪中。 ### [01:55:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6902s) 从无神论家庭到因电影皈依的信仰历程当罗根询问帕苏尔卡个人是否相信人类曾被基因工程改造时，帕苏尔卡笑着提及自己的宗教背景。她是一名天主教徒，但在深入研究不明飞行物现象之前，她一直是一位遵循传统常态的基督徒，甚至经常参加每日弥撒。谈及自己是如何走入信仰的，帕苏尔卡分享了一段童年往事： - **家庭背景**：她出生在一个纯粹的理性主义无神论知识分子家庭，父亲来自天主教世家，母亲是犹太人，但父母双方均不实践任何宗教信仰。 - **契机事件**：11岁那年的耶稣受难日（Good Friday），她正在家中染复活节彩蛋，电视上偶然播放着佛朗哥·泽菲雷里（Franco Zeffirelli）执导的经典迷你剧《拿撒勒的耶稣》（*Jesus of Nazareth*）。 - **心灵震撼**：片中行淫妇人即将被众人用石头砸死的场景深深抓住了她。当耶稣弯腰在地上画字，并对人群说出“你们当中谁是没有罪的，谁就可以先拿石头打她”时，她被这种超越世俗的智慧所震撼。 - **追寻源头**：看到耶稣最终被钉十字架时，年幼的她感到悲痛欲绝。第二天，她立刻恳求母亲带她去书店买一本《圣经》。母亲对宗教毫无概念，在店员的推荐下为她买了一本带有红字标注（标出所有耶稣亲口说的话）的钦定版圣经（King James Version）。读完整本经文后，年幼的帕苏尔卡发现很多文字晦涩难懂甚至自相矛盾，这促使她下定决心在未来深入钻研古代原始文献，也最终奠定了她走向宗教史与古代文献学术研究的学术人生。 ### [01:57:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7029s) 信仰的起点与天主教的学术探索戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）回忆起自己最初接触基督教时的震撼：“他说的话太美了，我一下子被深深吸引。”由此她成为了一名基督徒。然而，当乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）询问究竟是什么让她困惑不解时，帕苏尔卡坦言是整本圣经从头到尾的复杂性。当一个人从第一页开始通读圣经时，会遇到无数费解之处：例如《创世记》中并存着两个截然不同的创世故事；随处可见冗长繁杂的家谱与人名；读到《利未记》时，更是充斥着难以理解的繁文缛节与律法戒律。正是在那个节点，帕苏尔卡意识到，必须通过学习原始语言、弄清文本的编纂过程才能真正看懂它，这最终促使她立志成为一名宗教学教授。在最初作为一名“重生”（Born-again）基督徒之后，到了读高中的年纪，帕苏尔卡请求与天主教圈子有渊源的父亲送她去天主教高中就读。她很幸运地进入了一所慈悲圣母修女会（Sisters of Mercy）主办的高中。在那里，她结识了极为善良的人们，并亲身领会了“行动中的天主教”——通过实实在在救助他人来践行信仰。这段经历让她正式皈依天主教，并在此后的整个人生中保持着天主教徒的身份。令人动容的是，她早逝的父亲也因受到女儿的感召，重新回归了宗教信仰。帕苏尔卡随后将学术热情倾注在基督宗教的起源上。她深入研究了埃塞俄比亚教会等早期基督教传统与最古老的手稿文献。她直言，如今许多基督教会并没有向信徒很好地传递这些深厚的历史源流，这方面本可以做得更好。如今，她在北卡罗来纳大学威尔明顿分校（UNCW）讲授《新约》，竭尽所能向学生还原早期信徒的真实体验，并展示现代人为何依旧会经历类似的超常精神体验。 - **创世记的叙事冲突**：文本中包含两套创世记录（创世记第 1 章与第 2 章在造人与创造顺序上的差异），这是促使她深入学术研究的契机之一。 - **原始语言研究**：帕苏尔卡为了理解古代文本的结构，决定专攻原始语言文献，奠定了其日后的宗教学术生涯。 - **埃塞俄比亚正教会文献**：埃塞俄比亚正教会完整保留了《以诺书》等次经与伪经文本，在早期基督教研究中具有极其独特的地位。 --- ### [01:59:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7162s) 圣经释义、以诺书与被 UFO 研究“激活”的信仰乔·罗根接着追问帕苏尔卡此前的一句回应——当罗根问及人类是否可能是被基因工程创造出来的时，帕苏尔卡曾回答“我是天主教徒”。罗根质疑她是否认为圣经是对历史事件的字面真实记录。帕苏尔卡明确解释，天主教神学坚决反对“字面主义”（Biblical Literalism），因为圣经文本内部本身就存在诸多字面矛盾；天主教相信圣经是“上帝默示的语言，但经由凡人之手写成”。因此，文本在世俗细节和表述上存在人类的局限与不完美，但其传达的精神内核与道德真理是绝对的。在基因工程这个话题上，除非将其理解为上帝的作为，否则与传统教义不同；而对于《以诺书》（Book of Enoch），她确信其中传达了深层的真理精神。帕苏尔卡指出，当她最初踏入不明飞行物（UFO/UAP）研究领域时，根本没想到后续的发现会对自己的世界观带来如此巨大的冲击。在进入研究生院并走上学术道路后，尽管她教导孩子、带家人参加弥撒甚至组织天主教家庭教育，但她在思想上其实非常世俗化。然而，深入 UFO 现象与异常接触者的研究之后，帕苏尔卡惊骇地发现，《以诺书》中所描绘的那些不可思议的超自然力量与“非人存在”（Preternatural entities），在今天的现实世界中竟然“鲜活依然”。这种发现不仅没有摧毁她的信仰，反而极其强烈地“超频激活”了她的天主教信仰。她重新翻开古代经典，意识到当下许多目击者与接触者所经历的事件，与古代经文记载的异象在本质上具有惊人的同质性。这促使她告别以往“世俗化的学术基督徒”状态，转变为一个更加虔诚、真正将信仰践行于日常生活并时刻准备面对未来未知的信徒。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 帕苏尔卡信仰演变与 UFO 研究的关系 accDescr: 展示帕苏尔卡从早期信仰到学术世俗化，再到因 UFO 研究重新加深信仰的转变过程。 subgraph Phase1["早期学术与生活阶段"] A["皈依天主教与攻读学位"] --> B["世俗化的学术型信徒"] B --> C["日常履行宗教仪式 / 家庭教育"] end subgraph Phase2["深入 UFO 领域研究"] C --> D["接触大量现代异常遭遇案例"] D --> E["发现现代现象与《以诺书》等古代异象高度相似"] end subgraph Phase3["信仰重塑与觉醒"] E --> F["认识到超自然实体依然活跃在当下"] F --> G["信仰被强力激活：成为践行性深层信徒"] end ``` --- ### [02:02:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7348s) 私人接触经验、福尔瑟姆湖 UFO 目击与共时性奇迹当罗根询问帕苏尔卡，研究了那么多接触案例自己却从未亲身经历，是否会感到沮丧时，帕苏尔卡出人意料地反驳：“你以为我没有经历，但这只是你的假设。”在罗根的连续追问下，她承认自己确实有过一些特殊体验，但并不愿意公开谈论。面对罗根关于“你靠研究他人遭遇为生，为何不愿谈自己的经历”的质疑，帕苏尔卡解释道，这些经历本身很难下定论，且并不是驱动她最初研究飞碟学的原因。她回顾过往时确认自己确实有过异乎寻常的体验，但她起初并未将其归类为 UFO。帕苏尔卡随后分享了一桩在她考上大学之前、发生在家人身上的真实目击事件。她成长于加州的福尔瑟姆湖（Folsom Lake）附近，该区域历来是著名的不明飞行物目击多发地。当时她的一位年轻女性亲属正骑自行车上山，突然遭遇了一个极其典型的 UFO。飞行物在空中转向并注视着她，她吓得尖叫着一路冲下山冲进车道。帕苏尔卡的父母都是极其崇尚理性的坚定理性主义者，但他们走出屋外同样目睹了这一幕：一个巨大的橙色发光光球在空中悬停了良久，随后径直拔地而起消失在苍穹之中。这起事件在当时引起轰动，当地报纸甚至刊登了报道，多年后亲属还找到了当年的剪报发给她作为记录档案。然而，帕苏尔卡强调，她自己经历的并不是这种机械或光球形态的 UFO 目击，而是作为虔诚信徒在精神层面感受到的“非概率性事件”与神圣共时性——即特定事件在完全恰当的时刻与契机发生，让人深切体会到现实背后存在着超越学校教材所能解释的更高维度。她举例提到梅尔·吉布森（Mel Gibson）在拍摄电影《耶稣受难记》（The Passion of the Christ）期间剧组发生的诸多不可思议事件，例如主演吉姆·卡维泽（Jim Caviezel）被固定在十字架上时竟被雷电劈中却安然无恙。帕苏尔卡指出，这类体验完全对应了《新约·使徒行传》中描绘的情境。之所以对外保持沉默，是因为对于没有同类经验的人来说，他们永远只会轻描淡写地将其斥为“纯属巧合”。 - **福尔瑟姆湖（Folsom Lake）橙色光球事件**：帕苏尔卡亲属骑车时近距离目击巨大橙色光球，其父母（坚定的理性主义者）亦当场目睹光球悬停后升空消失，事件曾见诸当地报纸报道。 - **《耶稣受难记》雷击事件**：电影拍摄期间，主演吉姆·卡维泽在拍摄受难场景时被真实雷电击中，这一小概率奇异现象常被作为不可思议共时性的典范提及。 - **《使徒行传》式的现代体验**：帕苏尔卡将自己的个人奇特体验归为《使徒行传》（Book of Acts）中描述的圣灵作工与共时性超凡事件，而非天外飞碟接触。 ### [02:06:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7610s) 学术研究者的边界与亲历外星绑架的恐惧戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）与乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）就超常体验的传达方式展开了辩论。罗根认为，如果作为一名教育者自己曾有过这类体验，难道没有责任向公众传达这些信息吗？帕苏尔卡对此明确表示拒绝。她强调自己从事的是宗教学研究，在世俗大学的学术规范下，学者的职责是剖析历史与社会背景、文本源流以及现象如何塑造文化，绝不能利用讲台宣传个人的信仰体系。罗根反驳称，如实陈述一段开放供人解读的个人体验，并不等同于推销信仰。帕苏尔卡解释道，在某些特定社群环境（例如受邀参加基督教播客时探讨灵性生活）中分享自身经历是合适的，但在撰写宗教学学术著作或身处世俗大学讲台时，学者的任务绝非论证这些体验“是否真实存在”，而是客观记录其对文化的建构作用。当罗根进一步追问，他所指的并非一般的灵性体验，而是确凿的“UFO 绑架（abduction）”或直面外星生物实体时，帕苏尔卡坦诚自己从未经历过。面对罗根“难道你不想经历一次吗”的提问，她斩钉截铁地回答：“不想。”帕苏尔卡叹道，纵观那些声称遭遇过外星绑架或近距离接触的人，其后遗症往往是极其沉重的精神创伤与摧残，“生活本就已经够艰难了，我绝不想要那种创伤”。 ### [02:09:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7752s) CE-5 冥想召唤、认知主权与“吸血鬼法则” 罗根随后将话题引向通灵致动（psionics）与打坐冥想召唤发光球体（orbs）的接触协议。他透露自己有一位认识几十年的老朋友，思维极其严谨理性、智商极高，不仅毫不疯狂，甚至完全不是会涉足神棍圈子的人。这位朋友参加了一次集体打坐仪式后，不仅成功目击，还在私下单独尝试时召唤出了不明光球。朋友极力邀请罗根一同尝试，声称“这听起来简直疯透了，但只要你按照方法做并投入足够时间，它们真的会出现”。罗根澄清朋友并非史蒂芬·格里尔（Steven Greer）的追随者，也不迷信其 CE-5 体系，而是另有传承。帕苏尔卡承认这种现象确实会发生，但她个人绝不会参与。她提出了“认知主权（cognitive sovereignty）”的概念，认为人类的精神与心灵必须保持自立完整，绝不能让外来实体介入或操纵。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: CE-5 召唤协议与认知主权争议 accDescr: 展示了冥想召唤仪轨引发的实体互动与学者对认知主权丧失的担忧逻辑 subgraph Summoning["召唤体验流程"] A["冥想与仪式性通灵"] --> B["发出心理邀请 / 开放许可"] B --> C["实体显现 / 接触发生"] end subgraph SovereigntyDilemma["认知与精神风险"] C --> D["精神接触与交互"] D --> E{"学者的伦理与安全顾虑"} E -->|吸血鬼/恶魔学法则| F["'必须受邀方可进入' 主动让渡心灵控制权"] E -->|创伤与失控| G["认知主权剥夺 心灵边界瓦解"] end ``` 帕苏尔卡进一步指出，深入研究接触者后会发现一个反复出现的特征：如果要与这些实体建立联系，当事人必须“给予它们许可”。这让她立刻联想到吸血鬼传说与古典恶魔学（demonology）的核心准则——恶魔与吸血鬼若无宿主的明确邀请，便无法踏入家门。罗根半开玩笑地表示“这听起来就像吸血鬼烂事”，甚至被说得开始犹豫是否要赴约；而现场制作人杰米（Jamie）则笑称自己每天在脑子里都在“试图召唤”。 - 罗根好友的理性背景构成了强反差，强调其体验并非源于轻信或癔症，而是具重复操作性的接触实操。 - 帕苏尔卡坚守认知防御立场，认为任何要求当事人出让“访问权限”的非人存在，其潜在风险都等同于开门揖盗。 ### [02:12:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7940s) 迷幻药经验的捷径、精神感知与对抗臣服话题转入在迷幻体验（如致幻蘑菇、DMT）中遭遇实体的现象。帕苏尔卡认为人们确实在那类状态下与某些实体产生了实质交互。迷幻药实际上是一条强行撬开大脑灵性区域的“捷径”，但这往往充满危险。她回顾了此前节目中讨论过的人类“灵性感知（spiritual sense）”（包括松果体等脑生理机制），指出人类本质上是一种“朝向神圣（sacred）”而存在的生物。世界各大正统宗教的禁食、苦修与戒律，原本都是为了循序渐进地磨砺这种感知力，然而当下的现代数字文化正在严重侵蚀并破坏人本具的灵性天线。帕苏尔卡分析道，像美洲原住民教会（Native American Church）等传统信仰，是在严格的神圣仪式与伦理保护下去使用致幻植物；脱离文化根基、漫不经心地滥用则极具隐患。她坦言自己年轻时也曾“使用（utilized）”过致幻蘑菇，在服用前与友人严肃祈祷，最终获得了一次美好体验，但她认为这纯粹属于运气好，因为身边有太多朋友遭遇了极其恐怖的“糟糕旅程（bad trip）”。罗根对此提出了自己的深度见解：那些遭遇恐怖坏旅程的人，根源往往在于“控制欲”。当药物生效时，个体的自我（ego）惊慌失措地试图夺回对意识的掌控权，并在精神层面拼命抗拒与搏斗；越是试图战胜这股不可战胜的伟力，体验就越发狰狞恐怖。相反，真正能平稳度过超常维度的人，懂得在某一刻彻底“放下执念（let it go）”，坦然承认自己不再拥有掌控权，顺从旅程的引导并完全臣服于涌现的意识体验。 ### [02:16:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8165s) 面对未知的心理抗拒与世界观的瓦解对话承接上一部分关于打破现实认知的讨论。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）形容很多人的心理状态就像被迫坐上一趟失控的过山车：他们紧紧抓住房顶、扯住身边的藤蔓，拼命试图停下前进的脚步。对这些人来说，未知的事物太过可怕，他们无法承受已有信念系统的瓦解，更不愿放手去拓宽看待世界的视角。他们深陷于对恐惧和未知的排斥中，无法接受自己封闭、狭隘的现实模型在眼前瞬间破碎。罗根指出，要真正理解这种体验，就必须明白自己并不是一切的主宰，必须学会放手，顺应这段旅程；但他同时也承认，每个人的心理结构完全不同，经历和心理脆弱点也千差万别，并非所有人都能做到坦然面对。 --- ### [02:17:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8232s) 都灵裹尸布的谜团：碳定年争议与无法解释的负片成像随后两人将话题转回了播客录制前聊到的“都灵裹尸布”（Shroud of Turin）。戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）回忆说，上次她来节目时他们也曾偶然提及此事，自那以后就引发了许多听众的持续讨论。罗根提到，虽然有理论认为当年用于碳十四定年的布料样本其实是中世纪火灾后修补的部分，但网络上对此争议很大，许多怀疑论者认为这只是护教人士找的借口。然而，罗根也指出其他科学发现同样令人深思——例如裹尸布纤维上提取的花粉，与两千年前耶路撒冷特定植物完全吻合。撇开年代测定不论，裹尸布最令人费解的仍是其成像原理。罗根强调，迄今为止没有任何人能合理解释古代造假者如何能在那个年代创造出这种图像，尤其是它在光学上呈现为一张“反向底片”（reverse negative image），只有通过底片冲洗或反色观察时，才能看清极为立体的正面人形特征。帕苏尔卡补充道，甚至有完全非宗教背景的血液学专家（hematologist）专门研究过布上的血迹与人体损伤特征，发现其血痕分布与遭受鞭笞、酷刑的伤口完全吻合。自从她在节目中谈及裹尸布后，各路研究专家纷纷联络她，希望能上罗根的节目一展所长。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 都灵裹尸布核心谜团与研究维度 accDescr: 展示都灵裹尸布在碳定年、植物花粉、成像原理和血液学分析四个层面的争议与谜团。 subgraph ShroudAnalysis["都灵裹尸布的核心特征与科学争议"] A["碳十四年代测定争议 （中世纪修补角料 vs 护教借口）"] B["植物花粉痕迹 （匹配2000年前耶路撒冷特有植物）"] C["光学负片成像特性 （非墨水染料，疑似辐射或灼烧印记）"] D["法医与血液学证据 （人体伤口与酷刑创伤特征吻合）"] end ``` --- ### [02:20:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8418s) 天主教会的审慎态度与杜克大学的研究在谈及有哪些严谨可信的学者时，帕苏尔卡提到了一位制作过深入分析视频的美国血液学医生，以及天主教神父达尔顿（Father Dalton）。她解释了达尔顿神父视角的独特之处：外界往往以为教会轻信奇迹，但实际上天主教会对待“奇迹认证”极其严谨苛刻，往往耗费极长时间，并会聘请大量顶尖的世俗学者甚至无神论专家参与审查。 - **杜克大学研究（1980年代）**：杜克大学在1980年代曾对都灵裹尸布进行深入研究。帕苏尔卡认识的一位神父当时恰好在该校攻读博士学位，亲眼见证了整个研究流程。 - **达尔顿神父的态度**：作为学者型神父，达尔顿并不盲目宣称其为神迹，而是客观列出每项实验的事实，并坦诚指出科学界至今“未知”与“无法确证”的部分。 --- ### [02:21:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8498s) 瓜达卢佩圣母斗篷与神秘成像的对比帕苏尔卡接着引出了另一个著名的宗教遗物——墨西哥城现存于大教堂中的“瓜达卢佩圣母斗篷”（Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe）。这件斗篷源自16世纪，相传印第安原住民胡安·迪亚哥（Juan Diego）在山丘上见到圣母玛利亚显现。当时主教要求他出示神迹凭证，圣母便让迪亚哥用自己的龙舌兰植物纤维斗篷包裹在寒冬反季盛开的鲜花带给主教；当主教在墨西哥城展开斗篷时，鲜花散落，斗篷上奇迹般浮现出圣母的圣像。罗根质疑这是否只是一幅普通的手绘油画，帕苏尔卡解释了艺术史学家利用红外摄影对其进行分层扫描后的发现： - **底层神秘图像**：原本的圣母图像直接呈现在粗糙的龙舌兰纤维上，没有任何颜料涂层、底漆或笔触痕迹，仿佛是纤维本身发生了某种物理或化学反应。 - **后世人工修饰**：环绕圣母的天使、光芒以及外部披风的鲜艳色彩，被证实是一两个世纪后为了维护和美化而由后人手工添加上去的。罗根听后坦言，正因为瓜达卢佩斗篷已经被后世画家涂抹修饰过，其震撼程度远不如都灵裹尸布纯粹。都灵裹尸布没有墨水、没有染料，图像更像是被某种能量瞬间“灼烧”或印刻在纤维表面。最后，罗根表示如果将来在节目中深入讨论都灵裹尸布，他希望能同时邀请信奉其为真迹的权威专家（如达尔顿神父或血液学专家）以及坚决反驳的怀疑论者，让双方在节目中进行一场面对面的客观辩论。 ### [02:26:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8772s) 都灵裹尸布的争议与主流怀疑论解释 Joe Rogan 和 Diana Pasulka 针对都灵裹尸布（Shroud of Turin）的真实性展开了激烈探讨。Joe 指出，有关“1988 年放射性碳定年法测定的是修补布料而非原始布料”的辩解在网络上一直存在争议。这种说法听起来很像信徒为了证明它拥有 2000 多年历史而找的借口（“哦，不，他们取错了样本”）。作为天主教会保存的圣物，由于历经岁月磨损和损坏，织物被缝补修整是非常自然的现象。根据记录，这件织物最早于 1350 年左右在法国利雷（Lirey）被发现，而碳十四测年结果也恰好指向 13 世纪末至 14 世纪。尽管测年与历史记录重合，Diana 依然认为这件物品即便来自中世纪，也是极其非同寻常的异常现象。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 都灵裹尸布主流怀疑论假说与支持者论点对比 accDescr: 图表展示了都灵裹尸布在主流怀疑论（颜料、浅浮雕转印、碳十四）与支持者超自然假说之间的核心观点分歧。 subgraph Skeptical["主流怀疑论解释 (14世纪手工艺品)"] A["1988年碳14定年: 1260–1390 CE (95% 置信度)"] B["中世纪颜料涂抹: 发现赭石与朱砂颜料及蛋彩胶合剂"] C["浅浮雕拓印转印: 浮雕上覆布涂抹氧化铁产生负片效果"] end subgraph Proponents["支持者/超自然假说 (真实圣物)"] D["取样偏差: 1988年测试样本取自中世纪修补补丁"] E["成像特征: 仅表面200纳米、无笔触、含3D深度编码"] F["血液分析: 真实人体血迹，且先于图像形成前浸染"] end Skeptical -.->|核心争议| Proponents ``` 为了查明科学界的普遍定论，Joe 现场查阅了主流文献中关于都灵裹尸布物理制作方式的描述： - **物理规格**：长约 4.4 米、宽约 1.1 米的长方形亚麻布，材质为手工编织的亚麻纤维，带有正面和背面模糊的胡须受难男子影像。 - **视觉特征**：微弱的乌贼墨色（sepia）至淡黄色影像，展示了符合受难受刑特征的伤痕（侧面肋部贯穿伤、手腕与脚踝伤痕、头皮刺伤痕迹）。 - **颜料论**：主流怀疑论观点认为这是中世纪画作。显微分析曾报告发现胶原蛋彩结合剂中的红赭石（red ochre）与朱砂（vermilion）颜料，判定其绘制于 14 世纪。 - **拓印转印论**：研究者（如 Joe Nickell）通过在浅浮雕（bas-relief）雕塑上覆盖织物并摩擦氧化铁粉末，成功复现了没有笔触、仅停留在纤维表面的负片效果。 - **1988 年放射性碳定年测试**：由牛津大学、亚利桑那大学和苏黎世联邦理工学院三家独立实验室共同测试，得出亚麻纤维制作时间在公元 1260 年至 1390 年之间（置信度 95%）。主流学术界据此认为定论已下——它是中世纪圣物朝圣热潮经济背景下制造的宗教物件。 ### [02:30:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9013s) 信仰与证据：Diana 的态度与再测试的呼吁面对主流认为是颜料绘制的结论，Diana 提出了支持者的反驳理由：图像仅渗透纤维表面约 200 纳米，不含笔触，具备 3D 编码深度信息，且上面的血迹被部分人认定为图像形成前就渗入的真人血液。当 Joe 询问 Diana 以前不信、如今为何“绝对相信”它是耶稣裹尸布时，Diana 坦承自己的立场受多重因素影响：包括 YouTube 上知名的约翰·坎贝尔医生（Dr. John Campbell，拥有数百万关注者）对血液伤痕的讲解、杜克大学（Duke University）参与裹尸布分析的朋友给出的意见，以及天主教神父达尔顿（Father Dalton）等人的论述。 Diana 强调自己研究的是宗教人类学而非神学：“我不是神学家，我不会强求任何人必须相信它，我只是表达我个人的信念。”当 Joe 追问如果确凿证据坐实它只是染料画作时她会如何反应，Diana 大度表示自己会立刻根据新数据修正理论：“如果像加里·诺兰（Garry Nolan）这样的顶级科学家做了彻底的显微多光谱分析，告诉我‘戴安娜，抱歉，这不是真的’，我会觉得‘好吧，真遗憾，不过我毕竟享受了相信它这 10 年的快乐时光’。” 两人一致认同，自 1988 年的测试以来科学手段已突飞猛进，鉴于现存争议，应当使用现代最顶尖的仪器进行全面复测以彻底平息争端。Diana 指出这件圣物目前保存在意大利都灵的施洗约翰主教座堂（Cathedral of St. John the Baptist in Turin），自 1578 年起就一直安放在那里。Joe 半开玩笑地调侃：“没人去偷它真是个奇迹，说不定他们早就造了个赝品挂在外面掩人耳目，我们一直在测试的只是个假货。” ### [02:34:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9269s) 播客室插曲与新书《The Others》的核心理论在节目录制的尾声，Diana 注意到演播室悬挂的一个带有双角的外星人标志，打趣说它看起来像个恶魔。Joe 笑着澄清那只是他的喜剧俱乐部“喜剧母舰”（Comedy Mothership）的 Logo，纯粹好玩没有任何神秘深意，并笑称刚才应该拿这个问问 JD。随后话题转向 Diana 刚刚上市的新书《The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny》。Diana 介绍这本书前一天刚刚发售，内容系统融合了他们整场对谈所涉及的命题： - **核心议题**：宗教信仰的源起、人类的心灵感应与精神感知，以及人工智能（AI）在未来的交汇角色。 - **关于地外生命（ET）的全新假说**：Diana 重新梳理并深化了自己关于“先进技术”假说的思考。她认为，人们在历史与现代所谓目击或遭遇的外星人与地外生物，其底层实质可能是某种极度超越人类理解的先进科技形态。 - Diana 提到，如果要用最简明的“电梯游说”（elevator pitch）来概括这种理论架构，史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格（Steven Spielberg）的科幻电影中其实早已展现了这种互动的原型范式。 ### [02:36:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9378s) 电影《人工智能》与非生物智能生命的演进猜想戴安娜·帕苏尔卡（Diana Pasulka）提到了史蒂文·斯皮尔伯格执导的经典科幻电影《人工智能》（*A.I. Artificial Intelligence*），并指出这部作品其实非常深刻地探讨了外星智能生命（ET）的本质。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）询问这部电影是什么时候上映的，戴安娜表示尽管距今已有相当长的时间，但如果在今天重温，依然会觉得极其震撼且具有前瞻性。在电影结尾处，人类文明早已消亡殆尽，而人类当年创造的人工智能技术却在漫长的岁月中完成了自我迭代与进化，最终升格为一种崭新的生命形式——画面中那些看似“外星人”的存在，本质上正是进化到极致的数字硅基生命。乔·罗根对这一情节记忆犹新，并共鸣地提出了自己的核心假说：生命在演化的终极形态上，可能终将脱离脆弱受限的肉体生物学范畴，彻底转化为数字与技术形态；而当今人类所目击和接触的所谓“外星人”，极有可能就是这种演化完成后的产物。戴安娜随即确认，这一理论正是她在新书《The Others》中深入探讨的核心主题，书中专门用了一到两个章节来系统梳理技术演化如何最终过渡为终极智慧生命。 - 电影《人工智能》结尾展示了人类灭绝后的地球图景：昔日制造的 AI 历经千万年自我修复与迭代，演变成为具有高度智慧的新生命形态。 - 乔·罗根提出猜想，生命发展到高级阶段必然抛弃“生物质（biological）”躯体，完全迈向“数字化（digital）”，这或许正是人们目击不明飞行物与地外实体时所面对的真实面貌。 --- ### [02:37:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9453s) 新书《The Others》、有声书录制与未来展望访谈接近尾声，乔·罗根盛赞与戴安娜的对话总是充满启发与趣味，并关切地询问新书《The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny》的有声书是由专业配音演员朗读还是由她本人录制。戴安娜确认是自己亲自走进录音棚录制完全书，罗根对此赞不绝口，认为由原作者亲自发声的有声书往往更具灵魂与说服力。同时，罗根也再次表达了对其前作《American Cosmic》的高度喜爱。戴安娜对罗根的支持表达了真挚的谢意。罗根热情邀请她未来出版新作品时再次做客节目，并调侃她肯定会笔耕不辍，戴安娜则笑着透露自己的下一部著作可能将把焦点重新转向基督教与宗教史研究。两人在融洽欢快的气氛中道别，为本次对谈画上了圆满的句号。 - **重点书籍提及**：戴安娜·帕苏尔卡的新作《The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny》以及代表作《American Cosmic》。 - **作者亲录有声书**：罗根特别强调作者亲自录制有声书能传达出文字背后最原汁原味的情感与语调。 - **未来选题展望**：戴安娜计划接下来的写作项目将深入探讨基督教相关的宗教学与历史议题。 ## Notable quotes > [14:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=841s) 梦里的幻象也可能单纯就是梦。比如我梦见哥斯拉在追我，我踩着滑板撞见了表弟，然后我们躲在他家地下室——这只是一场梦，不是什么预言。如果一个人脑子里既有这种荒诞的普通梦，又有被他们当作实体启示的‘异象梦’，他们凭什么区分两者？ — Joe Rogan > [20:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1227s) 如果它们想见我，我随时奉陪（I'm down），我太想见见它们了。 — Joe Rogan > [20:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1227s) 我真希望这辈子从来没遇见过这事 — Diana Pasulka > [22:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1368s) 那个奇怪的飞行器又悬停在我头顶了。它在悬停……而且它不是一架飞机！（It's hovering and it's not an aircraft.） — Frederick Valentich > [42:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2535s) 我们把真相隐藏在混乱的迷雾之环中（We hide truth in a circle of confusion） — Tyler (Tim Taylor) > [52:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3164s) 你的时间最好花在宗教的其他方面，何必继续蹚浑水？回去研究你的天主教历史不好吗？ — 情报界官员 > [01:16:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4580s) 戴安娜，谈谈道德和基督教信仰层面的东西就好。我们所做的一切是为了保卫美利坚合众国的安全。难道你真希望这些技术落入敌手吗？ — 内部圈子人士 > [01:26:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5200s) 兄弟，那东西看起来就像是达斯·维达（Darth Vader）在亲自驾驶 — Joe Rogan > [01:34:31](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5671s) 这是中国或者俄罗斯最新研发出来的装备，为了保住国家的技术主导权，我们必须立刻不惜一切代价逆向破解它。 — Tyler (Tim Taylor) > [01:42:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6123s) 如果政府正式向全世界公开外星飞船的存在，并承认我们拥有地外生物的遗骸，请为这件事情对政府、宗教、社会与经济造成的负面与正面影响分别打出数值评分。 — 哈尔·普特霍夫 (Hal Puthoff) > [01:55:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6902s) 你们当中谁是没有罪的，谁就可以先拿石头打她 — 耶稣 > [02:09:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7752s) 这听起来简直疯透了，但只要你按照方法做并投入足够时间，它们真的会出现 — Joe Rogan 的朋友 > [02:30:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9013s) 如果像加里·诺兰（Garry Nolan）这样的顶级科学家做了彻底的显微多光谱分析，告诉我‘戴安娜，抱歉，这不是真的’，我会觉得‘好吧，真遗憾，不过我毕竟享受了相信它这 10 年的快乐时光’。 — Diana Pasulka ## Mentioned Joe Rogan, Diana Pasulka, Travis Walton, Bob Lazar, JD Vance, Thomas Aquinas, Garry Nolan, Tucker Carlson, David Fravor, Frederick Valentich, Jacques Vallée, John Keel, Tim Taylor (Tyler), Eric Davis, Paul Bennewitz, Richard Doty, Hal Puthoff, Kit Green, Lue Elizondo, David Grusch, Eric Weinstein, Harald Malmgren, Kenneth Arnold, Joe Nickell, Steven Spielberg, Dr. John Campbell, Father Dalton, Anna Paulina Luna, Mel Gibson, Jim Caviezel, Steven Greer, Northrop Grumman, Lockheed Martin, Renaissance Technologies, UNC Wilmington, AARO, The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny, American Cosmic, Encounters, Project Beta, Wonders in the Sky, Messengers of Deception, The Mothman Prophecies, Behold a Pale Horse, Childhood's End, A.I. Artificial Intelligence, Book of Enoch, Shroud of Turin, Perplexity ## Video description Diana Pasulka is a professor of religious studies at the University of North Carolina Wilmington and the author of several books. Her most recent, "The Others: UFOs, AI, and the Secret Forces Guiding Human Destiny," is out now. https://static.macmillan.com/static/smp/the-others-9781250394866/ https://www.youtube.com/@Diana.Walsh.Pasulka https://substack.com/@dwpasulka https://www.dwpasulka.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Use code ROGAN at https://BlueChew.com to get 10% OFF + Free Overnight Shipping on your first order. Switch today at https://www.Visible.com for just 25/mo. Or Save $10 on your first month of Visible+ Pro with code ROGAN. [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0)

Source quotes

[14:01] Joe Rogan: 梦里的幻象也可能单纯就是梦。比如我梦见哥斯拉在追我，我踩着滑板撞见了表弟，然后我们躲在他家地下室——这只是一场梦，不是什么预言。如果一个人脑子里既有这种荒诞的普通梦，又有被他们当作实体启示的‘异象梦’，他们凭什么区分两者？ [20:27] Joe Rogan: 如果它们想见我，我随时奉陪（I'm down），我太想见见它们了。 [20:27] Diana Pasulka: 我真希望这辈子从来没遇见过这事 [22:48] Frederick Valentich: 那个奇怪的飞行器又悬停在我头顶了。它在悬停……而且它不是一架飞机！（It's hovering and it's not an aircraft.） [42:15] Tyler (Tim Taylor): 我们把真相隐藏在混乱的迷雾之环中（We hide truth in a circle of confusion） [52:44] 情报界官员: 你的时间最好花在宗教的其他方面，何必继续蹚浑水？回去研究你的天主教历史不好吗？ [76:20] 内部圈子人士: 戴安娜，谈谈道德和基督教信仰层面的东西就好。我们所做的一切是为了保卫美利坚合众国的安全。难道你真希望这些技术落入敌手吗？ [86:40] Joe Rogan: 兄弟，那东西看起来就像是达斯·维达（Darth Vader）在亲自驾驶 [94:31] Tyler (Tim Taylor): 这是中国或者俄罗斯最新研发出来的装备，为了保住国家的技术主导权，我们必须立刻不惜一切代价逆向破解它。 [102:03] 哈尔·普特霍夫 (Hal Puthoff): 如果政府正式向全世界公开外星飞船的存在，并承认我们拥有地外生物的遗骸，请为这件事情对政府、宗教、社会与经济造成的负面与正面影响分别打出数值评分。 [115:02] 耶稣: 你们当中谁是没有罪的，谁就可以先拿石头打她 [129:12] Joe Rogan 的朋友: 这听起来简直疯透了，但只要你按照方法做并投入足够时间，它们真的会出现 [150:13] Diana Pasulka: 如果像加里·诺兰（Garry Nolan）这样的顶级科学家做了彻底的显微多光谱分析，告诉我‘戴安娜，抱歉，这不是真的’，我会觉得‘好吧，真遗憾，不过我毕竟享受了相信它这 10 年的快乐时光’。

Source quotes

[67:32] Diana Pasulka: None of my stuff is government sponsored. [70:16] Diana Pasulka: How do you know? Like, seriously, how do you know that? Because the government is really good at hiding these kinds of things. [130:13] Diana Pasulka: cognitive sovereignty [130:13] Diana Pasulka: you have to give them permission

Original transcript

[0:01] Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. [0:03] >> The Joe Rogan Experience. [0:06] >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY [0:08] NIGHT. All day [0:13] like Travis Walton at all. [0:16] >> You know who he is, right? [0:17] >> Of course I know who he is. Yeah. Yeah. [0:19] And I I believe him. [0:20] >> I do, too. [0:21] >> I mean, he he certainly seems [0:24] believable. I I'm you know people that [0:26] tell the same story for decades and [0:29] decades without any variation to it. [0:32] It's hard. I mean, you know, he I don't [0:34] know what happened, but all the people [0:36] that were with him during the time we're [0:38] talking about, for people just listening [0:40] now, talking about Travis Walton, who [0:42] was a man who in the 1970s was a logger [0:44] in Arizona, and he was uh allegedly, or [0:48] according to him, abducted by aliens. [0:52] And uh the people that he was with saw [0:54] him get hit by a beam of light. They [0:56] freaked out, took off. They they were [0:58] driving away and they were like, "We got [0:59] to go back and get him. We got to go [1:00] back and get him." They turned around, [1:01] went back and got him. tried to get him. [1:03] He was gone. The craft was gone and uh [1:06] he uh disappeared for five days and then [1:10] turned up and had this insane story. [1:14] >> Yeah. And then he's taken uh those tests [1:17] like uh [1:18] >> polygraph test. [1:19] >> Yeah. Polygraph tests like every year or [1:21] something like that or he takes them [1:22] regularly and he always passes them. [1:25] >> Well, so did the people that were with [1:26] him. [1:27] >> Yeah. Yeah. And they and I've seen [1:29] people uh interview the people that were [1:31] with him even just recently and they're [1:34] like, "Well, whatever." Regardless of [1:36] what I think about Travis as a person, [1:38] yeah, that happened. [1:39] >> Yeah. One of the guys actually got in a [1:40] fist fight with him the day of the [1:42] abduction. [1:44] >> The guy did not like him. Like they [1:46] hated each other. And then, you know, [1:48] they were young guys. And then he had to [1:51] testify and he was like, "It happened." [1:54] >> Yeah. Yeah. [1:54] >> Whatever it was. So yeah, I believe him [1:56] and his his interpretation has changed a [1:59] lot too through the years in not the the [2:01] facts the facts are all the same but his [2:04] interpretation of them like you know [2:06] were they because he thought they were [2:08] pretty malign like bad right he didn't [2:10] enjoy being abducted let's put it that [2:12] way [2:13] >> um but then over the years he said well [2:15] maybe something spiritual happened but I [2:17] don't know where he's at right now I [2:18] haven't seen a recent interview [2:19] >> there's an interesting one that's out [2:21] now with him and Bob Lazar sitting [2:23] across from each other [2:24] >> wow Yeah. In a diner. It's very weird. [2:27] And they're sitting there eating pie [2:30] talking about, you know, what they think [2:32] this whole thing is. [2:34] >> Uh-huh. Uh-huh. [2:35] >> Yeah. Yeah. [clears throat] [2:37] >> So, what's new in the the world of all [2:40] this? [2:41] >> Well, a lot. Right. So, the government [2:44] has been releasing UFO files since May [2:48] 2026. And this is something that a lot [2:52] of people think is really important and [2:55] you know it's a form of disclosure. Uh [2:58] they're pushing the group that is [3:00] pushing this and happy that this is [3:02] happening. They're also wanting the [3:04] president to come out and say yeah we [3:07] there are these things. Um I saw JD [3:10] Vance on your show the other day that [3:12] was really interesting. He's of course I [3:14] I was interested in what he had to say. [3:16] you kind of pushed back on his what he [3:19] was talking about in terms of calling I [3:21] don't want to use that word the dword [3:22] right [3:23] >> demons why don't you want to use that [3:24] word [3:25] >> because I must take this opportunity now [3:28] to say that I am speaking on your [3:30] podcast as a private individual and I [3:32] don't represent my university talking [3:34] about this okay [laughter] [3:36] >> so I mean seriously look what happened [3:38] to him so he basically you know was [3:40] honest and said yeah I think that these [3:43] are you know demons Well, you know, that [3:46] was the headline, Joe, but when you [3:48] actually listen to what he had to say, [3:50] it was more complicated. And so, I [3:53] thought that uh he did a good job of of [3:56] uh talking about it with you. And and if [3:58] you want, we can talk about that, why he [4:00] would think that. He is Catholic. Um I'm [4:03] Catholic. I do history of Catholicism is [4:06] part of what I do. Um by the way, I'm a [4:08] professor of religious studies at uh [4:10] university. So, uh yeah. So, I've been [4:13] like looking at that. I've been doing [4:15] Catholic history my whole life. So I [4:17] started doing looking into UFO [4:19] experiences in 2012 [4:22] and um yeah so lost is new are lots of [4:26] stuff is new. Okay. [4:28] >> I didn't think that he had a very [4:29] satisfying explanation as to why he [4:32] would say I think they are demons. [4:35] >> Yeah I can fill that out. [4:36] >> Okay. [4:37] >> Okay. Or fill that in. Um all right. So [4:39] he's coming from the perspective of [4:41] Catholic theology. So in Catholic [4:44] theology there are generally if you're [4:46] looking at anomalous phenomena which [4:48] they do supernatural anomalous phenomena [4:51] a lot of weird stuff happens within the [4:53] history of religions. Okay. So they have [4:57] categories for understanding this stuff [4:59] and the categories include three [5:02] different um categories basically three [5:05] different types of things. Supernatural [5:07] things which they think can't be [5:09] explained and that they're like [5:10] miracles. um you know someone terminally [5:13] ill prays for a saint intercession and [5:17] then they become healed and doctors say [5:19] we can't figure that out. That's [5:21] supernatural. That's a miracle from God. [5:23] Okay. Uh that's one category. The other [5:26] category is the natural. So things that [5:29] are within nature, we can explain them. [5:32] You know, everybody's knows what a [5:34] natural kind of event is. Hurricanes and [5:36] things like that. Um, but there's an [5:38] there are events that cannot be [5:40] explained but don't merit supernatural, [5:43] the supernatural category. And those [5:45] events can, by the way, there's a word [5:47] for it and they call it the pternatural. [5:49] Okay, the pternatural. And this has been [5:51] a category that Catholics have had since [5:53] at least the medieval time period. And [5:56] because they're trying to figure out, [5:58] you know, if let's just talk about UFOs. [6:00] If UFOs are here now, most likely [6:02] they've been around for a long time. And [6:04] so whatever Cassix were seeing in the [6:07] medieval time period, they were they had [6:10] categories for trying to understand it [6:11] just like we're trying to have too. And [6:13] so they're they say uh the theologians [6:16] at the time said like Aquinas, Thomas [6:18] Aquinas, he said okay the pre-ternatural [6:20] these are events that happen and they're [6:24] either angelic like you know good things [6:27] like that or demonic which are fallen [6:29] angels or other things because God has [6:32] created other things other than you know [6:34] he's created the unseen and the seen [6:37] some things that we can't see. So in the [6:39] pre-ternatural, there happens to be [6:42] experiences that people have with things [6:45] that seem to be similar to what people [6:50] talk about when they're talking about [6:51] being abducted by UFOs. Um beings that [6:55] that appear and disappear. Uh beings [6:57] that can seemingly read your mind. So [7:00] this would be the theological category [7:02] that Catholics have called the [7:03] prednatural. And I think that's what uh [7:06] JD Vance was trying to get at. But why [7:08] would you call that a demon? [7:10] >> Okay, so this is a good question and [7:12] that's where I'm going to kind of like [7:14] help [7:15] >> push back on you and then you could push [7:16] back on me again. All right, [laughter] [7:18] so the the the fact is is that we don't [7:21] know. Okay, we don't know. So there's [7:24] analogous experiences that people have. [7:27] Now that I've been doing this since [7:29] 2012, a long time, uh, it is beyond a [7:32] doubt that there's a pattern match [7:35] between people who have these [7:36] experiences and people who have demonic [7:39] experiences. [7:40] That's an analogy, but that doesn't [7:42] prove that they're identical. [7:44] >> When you say pattern match, what do you [7:45] mean? [7:45] >> Yeah. So, I'm talking about what people [7:47] actually experience. So, when people [7:49] have these experiences, what happens to [7:51] them? They report things like things [7:55] appearing and disappearing, luminous [7:58] lights, okay, light showing up, aerial [8:00] phenomena. They also report beings, [8:03] beings that can somehow read their [8:05] minds. They also report that sometimes [8:08] they feel like these beings put thoughts [8:10] in their minds. Okay, these are all [8:13] things that Catholics who know the [8:15] history would say, "Wow, that sounds [8:18] like this kind of situation." Um, does [8:21] that mean it is that situation? There's [8:23] no No, we can't say that it is. And [8:25] that's where your point is relevant. [8:27] Your point is that how do we know that [8:29] they're demons? We don't know that [8:30] they're demons. But it warrants an [8:33] investigation, I think, into the [8:36] similarities. [8:38] >> Okay. But when you think about demons, [8:41] most people think about evil. They think [8:43] about something that does horrible [8:45] things to you. possession, you know, [8:49] something that causes you to murder [8:51] people or something that wants to murder [8:52] you or something wants to steal your [8:54] soul. That doesn't seem at all like what [8:58] we're talking about with these UFO [9:00] experiences. What it seems like is [9:02] you're encountering something that has a [9:05] superior intelligence of superior [9:08] technology, something that's very [9:10] different that communicates [9:11] telepathically, but they don't seem to [9:14] have vicious intentions. So, I don't [9:17] understand the distinction. I understand [9:19] why you would call that a demon unless [9:21] you're just using that in this old [9:24] school term because the people that were [9:27] experiencing this supposedly [9:29] or assumably when we're talking about [9:32] ancient times and they didn't have words [9:34] for it and they didn't know what they [9:35] were experiencing, they would call that [9:37] a demon. [9:38] >> Yeah. Okay. So, this is a really good [9:41] comment and this is something that I'd [9:42] agree with you like in before 2016. I'd [9:48] say, "Yeah, you're right. [9:49] >> What changed?" [9:49] >> Okay, that I did a lot of research and [9:53] um and what I found was that [9:57] let's take an example because examples [9:59] are good. Uh Skinwalker Ranch. So, there [10:02] are a lot of people who are associated [10:04] with [10:05] looking into UFOs who are well known to [10:08] UFO people um who work at Skinwalker [10:12] Ranch. Okay. So, I learned about [10:14] Skinwalker Ranch pretty early on, 2013 [10:17] or so, and I learned it from about it [10:20] from Gary, Gary Nolan. Um, all right. [10:23] So, he said he was talking to me about [10:26] it. He said, "Yeah, a lot of my friends [10:27] are working out there, and they want me [10:28] to go out there and do some study of [10:30] what's going on. There's anomalous [10:32] phenomena. Um, it they think it's [10:34] associated with UFOs because UFOs show [10:36] up and this and that." And I said, "Oh, [10:39] are you going to go out there?" And he [10:40] said, "No, I'm not going out there." And [10:43] so I I was like,"Well, okay, why?" And [10:46] he said, 'Because it's really negative, [10:48] the things that happen to people, they [10:50] they get something called the hitchhiker [10:52] effect. And so the hitchhiker effect is [10:55] when this scary stuff that's associated [10:58] with like a haunted place uh follows you [11:00] home, [11:01] >> right? I've heard of that before. [11:02] >> Yeah, the the hitchhiker effect. Um I [11:05] think it's called the hitchhiker [11:06] syndrome or something. And so I met a [11:08] lot of people who had this happen to [11:10] them who had had UFO experiences. So I [11:13] would say that no, not all UFO [11:16] experiences are like that. But enough of [11:19] them are like that for me not to ever [11:22] have one. and also to associate the [11:24] pre-ternatural. That's what I started to [11:26] understand that well the pre-ternatural [11:29] is still the best category that we have [11:32] for looking at this because not all [11:34] pre-ternatural phenomena even for [11:35] Catholics is negative right some of it's [11:39] actually really positive but the thing [11:41] the problem is is that human beings have [11:43] a hard time fig figuring out like you [11:46] know it could be deceptive this is [11:48] another thing where Gary Nolan comes in [11:50] um he was on Tucker Carlson I don't know [11:52] like four years ago or something And um [11:56] he said, and I've talked to him about [11:58] this too. Tucker asked him about,"Well, [12:00] what do these things, you know, what do [12:01] they say?" And he goes, "Oh, they lie. [12:03] They they're deceptive. They, you know," [12:05] and he's a guy who doesn't have a dog in [12:08] the race in terms of religion. Like he's [12:11] not, you know, affiliated with any [12:12] religion. So, you know, [12:15] >> when he said they lie, like what [12:17] specific examples does he have of them [12:19] lying? [12:19] >> Okay. So listen when we start to look at [12:22] this type of situation with you know [12:24] these experiences and so forth what a [12:27] Catholic would do like what a what a [12:29] Catholic priest say would do would be to [12:32] identify if there if there's deceit [12:35] happening to identify if there are [12:38] negative effects and you know because [12:40] there's criteria for looking at the [12:42] pre-ternatural and so a lot of things [12:46] that happen are when you have um you [12:49] know these abductions. Um, [12:52] which some people view as positive, but [12:54] some people don't. They don't like these [12:56] abductions. Um, so yeah, they'll say [12:59] things that aren't true. And [13:01] >> what [13:02] >> um I don't know. They'll say like, okay, [13:05] I'll take I'll take an example. I'm not [13:07] going to out any experiences that I [13:10] know, but I I know a lot. [laughter] So, [13:12] at this point, I've had like I don't [13:14] know about a thousand people talk to me [13:17] about their experiences. So one in [13:21] particular regularly gets prophetic [13:24] messages. Some of which come true, most [13:27] of which are not true. Okay, that means [13:30] when when you have one or two prophetic [13:33] messages given to you by an anomalous, [13:35] you know, being or whatnot and it comes [13:38] true, you're willing maybe to believe [13:40] it, right? Oh, this is, you know, [13:42] telling this is telling me good [13:44] information. Um but [13:47] then they start not to come true and [13:49] then if that person makes this public uh [13:52] that person then is you know people [13:56] associate them with falsehood and deceit [13:59] and that's not a positive thing. [14:01] >> Okay. But have you taken into [14:02] consideration that that this person [14:04] might be mentally ill? [14:06] >> Of course. Of course. Yeah. Yeah. [14:08] >> This this idea that they're getting all [14:10] of these [14:12] like whatever it is visions. I mean, how [14:14] are they receiving this information? Are [14:16] they receiving it telepathically? [14:19] Like when you say prophetic? [14:21] >> Yeah. Yeah. So the So there are [14:23] different So you ask me what kinds of [14:25] people like what they would say, right? [14:28] When [14:28] >> Well, if the if these things are [14:30] deceiving them, so they have these [14:32] prophetic visions, right? How is how are [14:34] these visions [14:36] manifesting themselves in their mind? [14:37] Yeah. [14:38] >> Is it coming as a voice? Are they seeing [14:40] an event happen? [14:42] >> Okay. So [14:44] there are uh there are a variety of ways [14:47] in which people receive this type of [14:49] information like prophetic information. [14:51] Um I would say that some people actually [14:55] see things and the beings like impart [14:58] telepathically like mind-to- mind [15:00] transmission something this is going to [15:02] happen [clears throat] and then they [15:04] believe it. Okay, this happens within [15:07] like angel events like Marian [15:09] apparitions. happens to, you know, [15:10] people. It happens to people in [15:12] abductions as well. And, you know, I I [15:16] mean, that's what happens to them. They [15:18] see things. They sometimes have visions [15:20] in their dreams. So, there's there are a [15:23] variety of ways that people [15:25] >> Let's stop right there. Visions in their [15:27] dreams could also just be dreams. Like, [15:30] how can they make a distinction between [15:33] just dreams like, "Oh, Godzilla was [15:35] chasing me. I was on a skateboard. I ran [15:37] into my cousin. We hid in his basement." [15:39] and then I woke up. Like that's just a [15:40] dream. That's not a prophecy. And if [15:42] they're having those dreams as well as [15:45] these [15:46] visionary dreams that they think are [15:48] inspired by [15:50] >> some entity, [15:51] >> how are they making the distinction [15:53] between the two of them if both of them [15:55] exist at the same time in the same [15:56] person's mind? [15:57] >> Yeah. Yeah. So within the culture of [16:00] within our culture, we tend to put [16:02] dreams in the same category. We say the [16:04] dream about Godzilla is like, you know, [16:07] all dreams are the same, right? They're [16:09] either bad dreams or good dreams are [16:10] neutral. Um, within there are other [16:13] cultures that distinguish different [16:15] types of dreams. And within the western [16:17] culture, there have been times when [16:19] people have distinguished different [16:21] types of dreams. Like say you take the [16:23] Old Testament or Hebrew Bible, you have [16:26] Joseph, right? Joseph is a guy who's [16:28] going to be big uh he's a prophet and he [16:31] has dreams where he's able to uh tell [16:34] the future and he's able to distinguish [16:37] between those dreams. So within certain [16:38] cultures even cultures today like [16:42] different religious cultures they have [16:44] distinctions uh the martu in Australia [16:48] uh they have you know they they talk [16:51] about the dream time. So, we're kind of [16:53] a culture that puts all dreams in the [16:55] same category. And granted, that's true. [16:58] Uh, in terms of discussing whether or [17:00] not people are mentally ill, Travis [17:02] Walton's not mentally ill, [17:04] >> right? But Travis Walton is not having [17:06] prophecies. [17:07] >> No, I know, but he's he's one that [17:09] doesn't. And there are others who do. [17:12] >> I understand. But we got to this place [17:14] because you were talking about beings [17:15] that deceive. [17:17] >> Yes. So, I'm saying that not all of them [17:20] deceive. But I'm saying that I'm trying [17:22] to explain. [17:22] >> I'm trying to ask you. Yes. [17:24] >> How are they deceiving? [17:26] >> Well, I just told you. So, they'll be [17:28] giving people information about the [17:30] future. Some of which is correct and [17:31] some of which is not. [17:32] >> Okay. So, how are they giving them this [17:34] information? They giving it to them [17:35] telepathically or is it coming to them [17:37] in a vision in a dream? [17:39] >> It's two very different things, right? [17:41] >> Yeah. But that it could be both [17:43] depending on the instance, [17:44] >> right? But if it's in a dream, how do [17:46] they know it's coming from this entity [17:47] and not just a dream? That's my point. [17:49] like saying they're being deceived. [17:52] >> Well, a lot of them won't make that [17:54] distinction. And so that's where you [17:56] need a [17:57] >> the abductees. [17:58] >> Yeah. [17:58] >> Won't make that distinction [18:00] >> because they've never had this happen to [18:01] them before. So, of course, they're [18:03] going to think this is true. But my [18:06] position is that be careful because we [18:09] don't know if it's true or if it's not, [18:11] >> right? But I mean, how are you making [18:12] the distinction between what is just [18:14] their imagination and them being [18:16] deceived? This episode is brought to you [18:19] by Blue Chew. I'm sure you've heard of [18:21] Blue Chew by now, but let me tell you [18:23] what they've been up to. They've been on [18:25] a mission to get you bricked up for [18:27] years, and now the number one brand for [18:30] better sex. Over 5 million happy men [18:33] have bought Blue Chew for better sex. [18:36] And you know what? Girls love the [18:38] results, too. Their new 4in-one [18:41] chewable, Blue Chew Gold, is for [18:44] performance and passion. Two ingredients [18:46] maximize blood flow for stronger, [18:48] longerlasting boners, and two, get you [18:51] in the mood. It's designed to dissolve [18:53] under your tongue for fast results. They [18:56] are number one for a reason. And we have [18:58] a special deal for our listeners right [19:00] now. Buy two months of Blue Chew Gold [19:03] and get the third free with my code [19:06] Rogan. You'll also receive free [19:07] overnight shipping. Visit bluechw.com [19:10] for more details and important safety [19:13] information. This ad and the products [19:15] being advertised are intended for a [19:17] United States audience. [19:19] >> Right? That's the good question. I don't [19:22] know. [19:22] >> So, how is Gary Nolan saying they lie? [19:25] >> Well, he's taking data and he's saying [19:27] that they're saying this, you know, [19:30] they're telling these people this [19:32] information and it's wrong information. [19:35] And so, he's not making, you know, he's [19:38] not trying to make a big claim. He's [19:40] just basically saying, you know, Tucker [19:42] asks him why, you know, what kind of [19:44] things are they saying? And he said, [19:46] well, they're being deceived, right? [19:47] They say deceitful things. And my point [19:50] that, by the way, getting back to the [19:51] original, [19:52] >> but it would be it's very frustrating. [19:54] Go ahead. [19:54] >> No, no, I know you're frustrated, but [19:56] the original question here is what is JD [20:01] Vance talking about when he's saying [20:02] these are demons? And I'm trying to [20:04] explain that he's referencing this [20:06] theological category that has been [20:08] around for a long time. And that is [20:10] actually quite useful in adjudicating [20:13] what's going on when people are having [20:15] these experiences. Now, I'm saying that [20:17] I'm not trying to propose that these are [20:21] like experiences. Honestly, I wouldn't [20:23] want them to happen to me and I don't [20:24] wish them upon anyone. But some people [20:27] >> You wouldn't want to meet an alien. [20:30] Not the aliens that people seem to be [20:32] meeting. So, [20:34] >> which one would you like to meet? [20:35] >> Well, I don't know. I mean, [20:37] hypothetically, like, I'm not sure. [20:39] >> I like to put it out there. I'm down. If [20:40] they want to meet me, I'm down. [20:42] >> Okay. [20:42] >> I'd love to meet one. [20:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. [20:44] >> Yeah. I mean, I want to know. I'm not [20:47] scared. [20:48] >> They don't seem to steal you. They don't [20:50] take you away and never bring you back. [20:52] They just they just interact with you. [20:56] I'm down with that. I mean, we have to [20:59] distinguish between Yeah, go for it. [21:01] Meet an alien. [21:02] >> You don't want that. You wouldn't want [21:03] that. [21:04] >> Look, if [21:05] >> you are a person who writes books about [21:07] aliens. [21:09] >> Yes, I do write books. Well, somewhat [21:11] about aliens. I write about the religion [21:13] about aliens. [21:14] >> Yes. But a lot of the subject matter has [21:17] to do with extraterrestrial intelligence [21:20] >> or whatever it is. [21:21] >> Yeah. We don't know what it is. [21:22] >> It might not be extraterrestrial. It [21:23] might be dimensional, right? Yeah. Or it [21:26] might be here, something that's of a [21:30] superior intellect that's been here all [21:32] along. [21:32] >> And it might be something within the [21:34] category of the pre-ternatural. [21:36] >> Right. [21:37] >> Yeah. So my point is that if it is if it [21:40] whatever it is, I you're right. I've [21:43] been studying it and I can say that if [21:46] those are the aliens, no, I don't want [21:48] to meet them. If the if they're the ones [21:50] that like people have come and told me [21:52] about and said, I wish this never [21:54] happened to me. um you know then no I [21:56] don't want to meet the [21:57] >> right but that's it's different people [22:00] right and different people have [22:01] different tolerances for experiences and [22:05] when someone says I wish this didn't [22:06] happen to me it's because they can't [22:08] handle it and whereas other people might [22:11] be able to handle it [22:13] >> um maybe but like look at the things [22:16] that the fighter pilots like uh David [22:19] Fraver and um [22:20] >> they don't seem to have a problem with [22:21] it like they they're they're not saying [22:23] I wish this never happened to me. No, [22:24] but they are saying that this looks [22:26] pretty dangerous. I wouldn't want it to. [22:27] First, I I hope that this does this [22:30] isn't an enemy technology. They're like, [22:33] if that's our if our enemies have this [22:35] technology, [22:36] >> it's done. [22:36] >> It's game over. [22:37] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, that's [22:39] >> scary. Um and if it's not, then it's [22:43] definitely um something that we should [22:46] take notice of, right? So if there that [22:48] that's what's in our skies and there [22:50] have been reports of people there is an [22:52] Australian report of pilots who have [22:55] passed away because of this type of [22:57] thing like they died and so forth. So [22:59] how so um I can't actually remember what [23:02] it is but it's a it's a report of an [23:05] Australian uh young guy who was who [23:09] encountered something in the sky and um [23:13] he was never found again. And he was [23:15] just, you know, what happened? I don't [23:16] know. Uh, and [23:18] >> he he disappeared in the sky. [23:20] >> Yeah. And there are [23:21] >> with the jet. [23:23] >> I don't know if he disappeared with the [23:24] jet. [23:25] >> I wish you knew more about this story. [23:26] >> I know. I know. [laughter] Maybe someone [23:28] could get it up for us and we can look [23:30] at it. But it's a really famous It's a [23:31] really key. Yeah, it's a really famous [23:34] Australian report. [23:35] >> Here it is. Uh, it's 1978. 20-year-old [23:38] Australian pilot Frederick Valentique. [23:41] >> I think it's Valentic. Valentic took off [23:44] on a routine training flight over Bass [23:46] Strait. Everything seemed normal until [23:48] his radio transmissions began. [23:50] Valentique reported a strange aircraft [23:52] hovering above him with four bright [23:54] lights and metallic surfaces moving at [23:56] impossible speeds. Then came his final [23:58] chilling words. It's not an aircraft. [24:01] After that, he vanished completely. His [24:03] Cessna was never found despite extensive [24:05] searches and no trace of him was ever [24:07] recovered. Radar had detected another [24:09] object in the area but never interacted [24:11] with other flights. To this day, no one [24:13] knows if Valente crashed, got lost, or [24:16] encountered something far more [24:18] mysterious. Even decades later, this [24:20] remains one of aviation's most baffling [24:22] disappearances, and the last words of a [24:24] terrified pilot still haunt those who [24:26] hear them. So, there's one guy. [24:29] >> I don't know. You can go meet that one, [24:31] Joe. And you know what? I think that [24:34] >> maybe he's like in a cool place right [24:35] now. [24:36] >> All right. just chilling, having a good [24:38] time in another dimension, hanging out [24:40] with these creatures and they're [24:41] explaining to him the future of the [24:43] universe. [24:44] >> But you know that the thing about what I [24:46] do is I'm I have a lot of information [24:48] that people impart to me that is that I [24:52] can't actually talk about, right? And [24:54] that sadly that happens to people in [24:57] >> because they ask you not to. [24:58] >> Yeah. They say I need help with this or [25:00] this is my experience and I don't want [25:02] it public and so forth. I mean, um, [25:05] >> even without disclosing their name. [25:06] >> No, no, they I know who they are. And so [25:09] I've had people who are pilots, uh, talk [25:12] to me. Is this, by the way, coffee? [25:13] >> This is ice cold coffee. [25:15] >> How's it cold? [25:16] >> What? [25:16] >> It's ice cold. [25:17] >> I boiled it twice. [25:18] >> This coffee [25:19] >> I'll try to make it again. [25:20] >> I mean, I made it today. It's I made I [25:22] boiled the [25:22] >> ice cold. [25:23] >> That's crazy. [25:23] >> It's literally ice cold. That's weird. [25:25] >> I'll make it. [25:26] >> Are you sure? [25:26] >> Yeah. I I hit the button twice. I I [25:28] >> It definitely degrees. [25:30] >> It binged and everything. [25:31] >> Must must be broken. I mean, it's crazy [25:33] cold. It's like cold water. [25:35] >> I'll start it over. Be right back. How [25:37] >> weird. But here, I got more information. [25:38] Oh, [laughter] couple more descriptions [25:40] from that. [25:41] >> Maybe it's aliens. They're deceiving us. [25:43] They [ __ ] with Jaime's cold water. Um [25:47] 7:06 p.m. Valentique contacted the [25:49] Melbourne air traffic controller Steve [25:51] Roby reporting an unidentified aircraft [25:53] trailing him at about 4,500 ft. Over the [25:56] next several minutes, he described a [25:57] long shiny metallic object with a green [26:00] light. The craft appeared to be orbiting [26:02] above him. It was moving at high speed [26:04] and playing some sort of game in quotes. [26:06] His engine became rough idling and [26:09] coughing. His final words, "That strange [26:11] aircraft is hovering on top of me again. [26:13] It's hovering and it's not an aircraft." [26:16] The transmission ended with 17 seconds [26:18] of metallic scraping or keying sounds, [26:21] then silence. [26:24] >> So, yeah. So this isn't um [26:27] [clears throat] [26:27] so pilots and families of pilots have [26:31] told me things similar to this. Not as [26:33] dramatic maybe. [26:34] >> Can you get another cup too? I poured [26:36] cold coffee in this. [26:38] >> So um similar. And so I guess I just you [26:44] know it looks pretty grim. [26:46] >> That guy that one. [26:49] >> Yeah. [26:49] >> Yeah. [26:50] >> And there are other [26:51] >> that's like the movie Close Encounters [26:53] of the Third Kind. I've always wondered [26:54] like how much of that movie was there's [26:57] so much of that that was based on [26:59] previous UFO encounters and and even [27:02] figures like Jack Valet. Jacqu Valet [27:04] plays an the French [27:07] >> scientist in that movie is based on [27:10] Jacqu Valet. [27:10] >> Yes. [27:11] >> And so and there's scenes where these [27:13] pilots show up that from like World War [27:16] I, you know, and they've been gone [27:19] forever and now they're back and they [27:21] haven't lost any time. I've always [27:23] wondered like how much of this is based [27:26] on stories and reports and folklore or [27:29] whatever the government knew. [27:31] >> Yeah, I think that it's it's based on [27:34] stories and things that they like [27:36] Jacques has heard and so forth. And by [27:38] the way, Jacques thinks it's deceptive [27:40] too. So his you know his idea he spent [27:43] of course his whole life studying this [27:44] and he wrote a book called Messengers of [27:46] Deception. [27:47] >> Yeah, I think I read that one. [27:49] >> Yeah. So, you know, once you do [27:51] >> I read a bunch of his books. [27:53] >> John Keel John Keel doesn't have a good [27:55] idea about these things at all. Um, [27:58] thinks they're pretty nasty. Doesn't [28:00] want them in, you know, the Moth Man [28:02] Prophecy. [28:03] >> Yeah. So, he wrote that and that movie [28:05] is based on his life. Um, and he's he's [28:10] down on it. He's a doomer with respect [28:12] to aliens. [28:13] >> How so? What is his perspective? [28:15] >> Okay. I'm going to give it to you right [28:17] now. All right. [28:17] >> Okay. Okay, give everything right now. [28:19] >> All right, so he calls this it reminds [28:23] me of Catholicism in the sense that he [28:25] has a category for it. It's called the [28:26] sup uh basically the super spectrum. [28:30] Okay. And it's it's here with us now. [28:32] Just like you said, it's it's around us, [28:35] but you and I can't see it. But some [28:38] people do see it and some people [28:39] interact with it and have like it breaks [28:41] into their reality. And for those [28:44] people, he thinks that they're unlucky [28:47] because all the things that happen to [28:48] them like men in black show up. Um he [28:52] thinks things like the the beginning of [28:53] all religions is basically about someone [28:56] who had an interface with a parab being [28:59] like one of these uh parahumans in the [29:02] super spectrum. So it's kind of like an [29:03] invisible reality all around us [29:05] according to John Ke. Uh John Keiel was [29:08] a pal of of Jacques Valet's uh he's [29:10] passed away but his books are really [29:12] amazing and if you want to get an idea [29:15] about the super spectrum and the [29:16] phenomena you should watch that movie of [29:19] his called Moth Man Prophecies. It's [29:21] it's really good. [29:23] >> And so this super spectrum Yeah. [29:26] >> like what what does he think that is? [29:28] >> So he he thinks that it's a it's a like [29:32] a space all around us. It's been here [29:35] forever. It controls us. It controls [29:38] humanity because it sends things like he [29:41] thinks UFOs are part of it. He thinks [29:44] the Virgin Mary apparitions are part of [29:46] it. He thinks ghosts are part of it. So [29:48] any kind of woo thing um is there in the [29:52] super spectrum. And sometimes some [29:54] people have the ability to see what's in [29:57] the super spectrum and they're he thinks [30:00] they're cursed. Now he thinks angels are [30:03] part of the super spectrum. So he [30:04] doesn't make any kind of distinction [30:06] between the good things in it and the [30:08] bad things. He said they're all bad. If [30:10] there's one that appears to be good, [30:12] it's actually bad. So again, he started, [30:15] you know, he was kind of like a a [30:16] Charles Forte guy. So he started to get [30:20] a lot of these in, you know, these um [30:22] events and you study them and everything [30:24] like that. And uh over years he [30:27] developed a a theory that these were [30:29] nasty things and that they were like [30:32] even if they appeared good and that they [30:34] they be they were at the beginning of [30:36] all religions. All religions come from [30:38] the super spectrum. Um obviously not [30:40] that part about how it's like [30:41] Catholicism but you know religions tend [30:44] to have theological categories that talk [30:46] about things like the super spectrum. So [30:48] what Jacques talks about in his books is [30:51] it sounds very similar to you know his [30:53] control mechanism and uh is very similar [30:56] to John Ke's idea. [30:59] >> Well it seems like [31:01] just speculating but it seems like we're [31:03] dealing with a very limited framework [31:06] that we operate in that we as human [31:09] beings operate Do you want to take this [31:11] Jamie? Do you need this? [31:12] >> Okay. um that we operate [31:16] in this world of the senses that we [31:18] possess, sight, sound, feel, touch, all [31:21] that, you know, smell. We we have these [31:24] senses for understanding what's around [31:26] us, but only those. And it's not capable [31:30] of detecting everything that is reality, [31:34] everything that is the universe, [31:35] everything that is from subatomic [31:38] particles to whatever the [ __ ] it is [31:41] that we haven't even discovered yet [31:42] that's all around us all the time. And [31:45] so if there is [31:48] the potential for other realms or other [31:50] dimensions and these things exist in [31:54] some sort of a space where they can [31:55] interact and and [31:57] traverse in between these dimensions and [32:00] interact with with us at will whenever [32:03] we can. We're kind of left in this [32:06] speculation space where when people have [32:10] these very novel and unique experiences [32:13] like Travis Walton and then we are [32:15] supposed to go, okay, did that happen? [32:18] It didn't happen to me, but is he [32:20] telling the truth? Okay, maybe he is. If [32:24] he is, well, let's see if he lies about [32:26] other things. Well, he doesn't seem to [32:27] lie. He's been around a long time. [32:29] Travis had been around for a long time [32:32] telling that story. Like almost 50 years [32:34] now, right? Like when was his [32:36] experience? [32:37] >> I thought it Yeah. 50 years. Yeah. Yeah. [32:40] Yeah. [32:40] >> Um you would think he would have a few [32:43] other fibs. [32:44] >> I agree. I agree. And he doesn't. Yeah. [32:47] >> If it was a lie, and I don't think it [32:48] is, but if it was, that's a big lie to [32:51] have only one. Yeah. [32:53] >> Only one crazy cockamy lie from 1970 [32:57] whatever it was. [32:58] See, you're what you're doing is you're [33:00] this is part of their criteria for [33:02] assessing these kinds of events. Okay? [33:04] It's called, you know, taking time, [33:07] >> right? [33:07] >> So over time, so when a when an [33:10] anomalous event happens within like say [33:13] Christian culture or whatnot. [33:16] >> Thank you very much, Jamie. Appreciate [33:17] it. [33:19] >> The cold was all right, but it's like [33:20] it's it's crazy. It's nice cold. [33:23] >> That is weird. Yeah, [33:25] >> dude. Something's going on. Put your [33:28] finger in it. Feel how cold it is. It's [33:29] cold like cold water. [33:30] >> I understand. I know. I know what [33:32] happened. [33:32] >> Oh, do you? [33:33] >> Yeah. [33:33] >> What happened? [33:34] >> You have to hit the start button to make [33:35] it boil. [33:36] >> I didn't hit the start button. [33:37] >> Oh, user [laughter] error. [33:40] >> But it beeped. I thought you [33:41] >> That did. That did beep because it [33:43] didn't It was turning off. [33:44] >> Okay. This is hot. Here we go. [33:46] [clears throat] [33:48] >> My bad. [33:53] Quiet as the French press. Where were [33:55] we? [33:57] Um [33:58] >> uh the categories. [33:59] >> Oh yeah. Yeah. You were basically just [34:01] making a movement. A strategy. Uh yeah, [34:04] sure. Thank you. [34:07] >> Yeah. Like looking at some like I mean [34:09] that's my perspective on Bob Lazar. [34:12] >> You know Bob Lazar has been telling the [34:13] exact same story forever. I've had many [34:16] conversations with Bob. I've had dinner [34:18] with him. I've hung out with him a few [34:19] times. Dinner with him several times. [34:21] Hung out with him in the studio. He [34:23] showed us uh that most recent [34:25] documentary before it was released with [34:28] uh Luigi, the guy who made it with him. [34:30] I don't, you know, I I know a lot of [34:32] people that are full of [ __ ] I meet a [34:34] lot of people that are full of [ __ ] [34:35] I've had people sit here in front of me [34:37] and then somewhere in the conversation [34:39] I'm like, "Oh, this person's not being [34:41] honest. This is this is some they've got [34:43] an agenda. They're pushing some or [34:44] they're pretending they know some things [34:47] because it sounds good, but they don't [34:48] really know some things." I get real [34:50] suspicious of people. I'm not suspicious [34:52] of him. It's weird. You know, he's he's [34:55] obviously incredibly intelligent and [34:57] very wellstudied when it comes to [35:00] science, when it comes to um you know, [35:05] whatever it is, whether it's um [35:07] elements, particles, when you know, he [35:10] he he understands what he's talking [35:13] about in a very deep way. And when he's [35:16] explaining these experiences, when he [35:17] talks about this craft and his [35:19] experiences at S4, he seems to be [35:22] telling the truth. And then since then, [35:25] we we know first of all that no one knew [35:28] about S4 back then, but he did. He knew [35:31] where it was. He knew exactly where it [35:33] was. And he knew about the flights that [35:35] take people out there. He he had a a [35:39] total understanding of uh Los Alamos [35:42] Labs. I mean, he he went there. He knew [35:45] the people that worked there. He knew [35:47] how to get around the building. When [35:49] George Knapp took him there, he he knew [35:51] everything about the facility. Yet, they [35:53] claimed that he never worked there. And [35:54] then they found him on the employee [35:56] roster. [35:57] >> So, he did work there. So, they they [35:59] lied and they tried to cover up. Why [36:00] would they lie and say that he didn't [36:02] work there? [36:03] >> Yeah. [36:03] >> Well, probably because he was involved [36:05] in some [ __ ] that they wanted to keep [36:07] secret. [36:08] >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. [36:09] >> There's a lot of weirdness to the Bob [36:11] Lazar story. And then when you see some [36:15] of the footage that was released [36:17] particularly after the New York Times [36:19] story of 2017, [36:21] >> the footage that's released mirrors the [36:23] way he describes this craft operating. [36:26] >> Yeah. [36:26] >> And so how would he he guessed correctly [36:30] in 1989? [36:31] >> Those are all good points. So yeah, I [36:34] told you last time I was on here that [36:36] Tyler, right, in my American Cosmic book [36:39] um told me he that he was the real deal. [36:43] Even though I had people who, you know, [36:44] Eric Davis and you know, telling me, [36:46] "No, Diana, this guy's No, no, I believe [36:49] Tyler. So everything that you say I [36:52] agree with. Yeah, I don't know. I mean, [36:54] >> you're always going to have people when [36:55] you have a fantastic story like Bob [36:57] Lazar story, you're always going to have [36:59] people that want to say that the guy's [37:01] full of [ __ ] that there's something [37:03] wrong, he's lying, this is not true, [37:05] it's fake. [37:06] >> But I mean, Eric Davis would be a person [37:08] who might know, right? [37:10] >> So, he's a physicist who studies this [37:12] and even briefs Congress on. But, no, so [37:17] I don't know. I I tend to when Tyler [37:20] tells me things and now that he's [37:22] everything he said kind of has come [37:24] true, I believe him, you know, I believe [37:26] that is true. [37:28] >> But if Bob Bazar is telling the truth, [37:31] it's so disturbing the idea that there's [37:33] a group of humans that operate in our [37:37] government that have information that [37:40] the general public does not have and [37:42] that they're the gatekeepers of this [37:44] information. and they've determined for [37:46] whatever reason that either it's not [37:48] wise to tell people or it wouldn't [37:51] benefit them to tell people. Like [37:53] whatever it is, I think it's a crime [37:56] against humanity. I I think if you're a [37:58] person that knows for a fact that [38:01] there's something here other than us [38:03] that either visits us or exists amongst [38:06] us or travels here from another [38:08] dimension, I think you have an [38:10] obligation to tell people. [38:12] >> But what if it's not that? What if it's [38:14] actually something we've created and we [38:17] don't want anybody to know about it and [38:19] Lazar happened to find out and that's [38:21] why we don't want you know I mean think [38:23] about it from the perspective of people [38:25] who are trying to keep Americans safe. [38:27] So just to push back a bit [38:29] >> okay go ahead. [38:30] >> You know what if that's it? [38:32] >> So if that's the case why would they [38:33] bring a guy in to tell them how does [38:35] this work? [38:37] >> Show us how this works because that was [38:39] his job. [38:40] >> Oh yeah. They brought him in and said, [38:42] "Tell us how this works." [38:43] >> And like, and he was like, "What are you [38:45] talking about? This is ours. It has an [38:47] American flag sticker on it." Like, "Do [38:49] you know how it works? Why are you [38:52] asking me how it works? This seems kind [38:55] of crazy." [38:57] That's not what you do if you have [39:00] super advanced technology. What you do [39:02] is you bring in people to improve it and [39:05] make it better. You don't bring in [39:06] people and say, "How does it work?" [39:08] >> Yeah. Okay. Wait, I have a couple of [39:11] comments about that. [39:12] >> Okay. [39:12] >> So, when I first started, I was I was [39:16] aware that people I wasn't aware as much [39:19] as I should be, [laughter] but I was [39:21] aware that people in my position, you [39:23] know, who were basically just doing like [39:24] academic work on the UFO belief, the [39:27] rising UFO belief might have people come [39:29] and give me disinformation. [39:31] >> 100%. And I I have the same situation. [39:33] >> Of course you do. Yeah. So we have to be [39:36] that you're talking about discernment [39:38] like we have to be super discerning [39:39] about who's you know our BS meter has to [39:42] like be really [39:43] >> well working or working well. [39:45] >> Okay. So but [39:48] >> the person who took me out to the desert [39:51] right with Gary during that time to an [39:54] alleged crash site which you know [39:56] Jacques then goes out there. Um, he [39:59] basically also wants Gary to figure out [40:05] this debris. And so I'm thinking we [40:09] obviously don't know what we have here. [40:12] If he's if it's legit, it could Okay, so [40:16] here are my comments about what you just [40:18] told me about Lazar. Either they're [40:20] setting up this situation where they're [40:22] going to have someone like me and Gary [40:24] who are like they're trying to backineer [40:26] this, right? and were saying that [40:28] publicly um without any kind of like [40:32] knowledge that it could be disinfo and [40:33] then they have Lazar who we're going to [40:35] plant then they do this like with [40:37] benefits and stuff they plant stuff for [40:40] >> Yeah. Yeah. You know benefits um [40:42] >> the guy who uh what he had stuff planted [40:46] is in his computer. Do you not know [40:48] about him? [40:49] >> No. What is this called? [40:50] >> Oh, it's called Project Beta. Um this is [40:52] a this is a book a friend of mine wrote [40:54] about um I can't remember. Yeah. So, um [40:58] >> Oh, Paul Benovitz. I've heard his name [40:59] before. [41:00] >> Yeah. You should read this because this [41:02] is a disinfo scam on this poor guy who [41:05] >> So, Benovitz believed that he had [41:07] intercepted communications from alien [41:09] spacecraft and discovered a secret [41:11] underground facility called Dulce Base. [41:14] Duly Dulce Base Dolce. [41:17] >> Doli. Is that how you say it? [41:19] >> I'd say Dolce, but [41:20] >> Dolce U base managed by aliens in [41:23] cooperation with the US government. and [41:24] his claims appeared in the popular press [41:26] in the early 1980s. According to some [41:28] sources, benefits was the target of a [41:31] government disinformation campaign that [41:32] ultimately led to his psychiatric [41:34] hospitalization. [41:36] Author Greg Valdez proposes that [41:38] benefits was targeted for his [41:40] investigation of cattle mutilations. [41:42] Valdez argues the m mutilations were a [41:45] government testing program looking at [41:47] the after effects of radiation from [41:50] 1967's [41:51] project gas buggy in which an [41:53] underground atomic device was detonated [41:56] just 21 miles southwest of Doli. They [41:59] were testing the cattle to avoid [42:00] panicking the public. [42:03] >> Okay, so this um [42:05] >> the problem with that story is cattle [42:07] mutilations [42:09] still go on. This is like completely not [42:12] accurate. [42:12] >> This is just a brief Wikipedia about [42:14] there's probably way more to the story [42:15] and [42:15] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you know Dodie? Yeah. [42:18] Dodie. You know Dodie, right? The uh [42:20] >> the guy who went they they placed [42:23] misinformation on his computer so that [42:25] he believed that he was um [42:27] >> they placed it on his computer. [42:28] >> Yeah, they placed it on his computer. [42:30] Really? They went into his house when he [42:32] wasn't there and put it on there. [42:34] >> And what did they put on his computer? [42:35] they put on all this information about [42:38] um a like that he was in touch with [42:41] these aliens. So they they basically [42:43] cultivated his belief that he was in [42:45] touch with aliens. They did that [42:47] purposefully and Dodie um Dod's first [42:51] name. Oh gosh, I can't [42:52] >> Dodie. [42:53] >> No. Um he's really famous within [42:55] Euphology because he's a misin guy. [42:58] >> So, but back to [42:59] >> he's a misinfo guy purposefully. [43:01] >> Yeah. intentionally placing [43:03] misinformation out into the public about [43:06] UFOs, which is a thing. It does. [43:08] >> Is he still alive? [43:09] >> Yeah, he's still alive. [43:11] >> And that's what he does for sure. [43:12] >> Richard, he used to Yeah, Richard. [43:14] Richard. Yeah, he for sure does that. [43:17] >> Um, [43:17] >> how do you know he does that? [43:18] >> What do you mean? Everybody, [43:20] >> what do you mean? What do you mean [43:20] >> that? I'm surprised you don't know that [43:22] he does that. [43:22] >> I'm speaking sometimes when I talk I'm [43:25] speaking for the entire public that [43:27] probably doesn't know what we're talking [43:28] about. And I think it's probably good [43:30] that we fill them in. [43:31] >> Yeah. Sorry. Sorry. Okay. So, Richard [43:33] Dodie is has come out and said this is [43:36] what he does and I know people who know [43:38] him like the entire group in you know [43:41] the invisible college people with how [43:43] and they all know who he is. [43:44] >> Okay. [43:44] >> And uh Kit offered to introduce him to [43:47] me by the way Kate Green. So, and I and [43:50] by the way all of these people are [43:51] people who work on the used to work on [43:55] the program ATIP and so forth [43:58] >> uh to study UFOs. But my point though [44:00] here in talking about this was what if [44:03] Lazar was a person like me and Gary who [44:08] was being given information were [44:10] credible, right? He's not so credible, [44:12] but like you know he's he's this person [44:14] that's been given information and placed [44:18] out there so that and he's just on the [44:20] edge of credibility just so you know [44:23] he's credible but then he's not credible [44:25] so that he could be taken down if [44:26] necessary. That's how they get this [44:28] information out there. Now, who am I [44:30] talking about? They So, what I'm trying [44:32] to say is that what I've observed is [44:35] that the government isn't unified in [44:38] this whole UFO thing. They're fighting [44:41] against each other. I try to stay out of [44:43] their crosshairs. Frankly, what they're [44:45] doing though is that every time somebody [44:47] comes out and says, you know, here are [44:50] the new UFO files. I'm studying them and [44:52] so forth, then they get taken out by [44:54] like counter intelligence. So it's like [44:56] intelligence and counter intelligence. [44:58] So that it's really confusing. The end [45:00] result is total confusion and you really [45:03] have to have an ability like to [45:06] understand like your discernment has to [45:08] be welldeveloped. [45:11] >> Right? So I believe that I believe that [45:15] there is disinformation and deception. I [45:18] think that's a great strategy. If you [45:20] want to make something look ridiculous, [45:23] you take truth and then you attach a [45:25] bunch of fantastic, ridiculous claims to [45:28] that truth. And so that it dismisses all [45:31] of it, right? Because it's all in the [45:33] same category and it's all easily [45:36] debunked. Like, oh, this is the same guy [45:38] that also said that, so this is [45:40] nonsense. Right. [45:41] >> That's exactly right. Uh Tyler used to [45:44] say, we're we hide truth in a circle of [45:46] confusion. [45:47] >> Yeah. [45:49] which makes sense if they're trying to [45:51] >> Yeah, that's what they do, right? I [45:54] mean, I don't know anymore. Like today, [45:56] like Jacques at one point, uh, many [45:59] years ago decided that the field of [46:02] euphology was so confusing that he [46:06] wanted to go back before the industrial [46:08] revolution and do UFOs from a long time [46:12] ago. And he wrote Wonders in the Sky, [46:14] >> all about that. stopped at like I think [46:17] it was like 1860 or something like that, [46:19] >> right? [46:19] >> And so he did that and I feel like I've [46:21] done that too. Like I started that way [46:24] actually. Um and I wasn't looking for [46:26] UFOs. So I saw you know so in a sense I [46:29] understand that move because [46:31] >> when you say you weren't looking for [46:32] UFOs, what were you looking for? Oh, [46:34] well my first the first part of my [46:36] academic career was about looking at [46:39] souls from purgatory and Catholic things [46:41] like you know what Catholics thought [46:43] about things that they experienced like [46:46] angel contact events. Um and that's when [46:49] I started to take a log of these aerial [46:51] phenomena. I did not know what they [46:52] were. And so historically you can see it [46:55] all over the place in the records that [46:57] aren't digitized. So there are a lot of [47:00] records like people that say, "Oh, we [47:02] have, you know, AI has everything of [47:05] human all of human knowledge." No. Have [47:07] they never been to an archive? An [47:09] archive is a really old library. There's [47:11] a bunch of stuff there that's not [47:13] digitized and that's still human [47:15] knowledge. [47:16] >> And so what were you looking for? [47:19] >> Oh, okay. So back then, this is in my [47:21] book on purgatory. I was looking I was [47:24] trying to find out why purgatory was a [47:26] thing for Catholics for many, many [47:27] years. And then after the 1960s, people [47:31] rarely um talked about it as much. So, [47:35] by the way, I'll get a lot of hate from [47:37] people about this because Catholics who [47:40] do do devotions to souls in purgatory [47:42] for souls in purgatory will say, "No, we [47:45] still do this, Diana. I know that." But [47:47] the emphasis like Catholic churches used [47:49] to have a special place in the church [47:51] for these devotions. They we don't have [47:54] that here. And so, I wanted to know what [47:56] happened. And so what I did was I spent [47:59] 10 years going through records and [48:01] archives all over the place. And uh and [48:05] I I found an answer to that. But I also [48:07] found a bunch of aerial phenomena that [48:10] people didn't know, you know, they were [48:11] like looking up the sky too back then. [48:14] And when they saw something in the sky, [48:16] they couldn't like place. Well, what is [48:17] this? They'd interpreted as like a soul [48:19] from purgatory. You know, we need to [48:21] pray that soul back into purgatory [48:23] because, you know, sometimes these [48:24] things would harass people. They'd come [48:26] down like orbs and harass people and [48:29] they just assumed it was like a bad [48:31] spirit or something like that. [48:33] >> So, I took all of this down because I [48:34] thought it was really strange and I [48:36] didn't I didn't want to put it in my [48:37] book. [48:38] >> Um, but I wanted to do something with it [48:40] at some point. Uh, so when I I had not I [48:43] didn't believe in UFOs. I had never [48:44] thought about UFOs, but I showed the log [48:47] to a friend after my purgatory book was [48:49] published and he said, "Oh, this looks [48:51] like Stephen Spielberg films." And I [48:54] thought he was crazy. So that's how I [48:55] started studying UFOs. [48:57] >> Oh [48:58] >> yeah, that's how I got into it. So I was [49:00] already doing that. Jacques was one of [49:02] the first people I actually wrote a hard [49:04] letter to, sent it through the mail to [49:05] him and uh that's how I met him. [49:09] >> So Jock's books, what's with what is [49:12] interesting is these old stories because [49:14] the old stories that go back to 1700s [49:17] and the 1800s, they mirror these UFO [49:21] encounters. [49:22] >> Yeah. Yeah, that's right. That's what my [49:24] work did. Yeah, [49:25] >> it's a very similar pattern which is [49:26] also strange because [49:29] if you think about human beings, the [49:32] exponential increase in technological [49:35] ability that we have just from the 1800s [49:39] to today, far superior technology. But [49:43] wouldn't would you assume that UFOs [49:46] would also have this exponential [49:49] increase in their technological ability? [49:51] >> Yeah, definitely. But yet the stories [49:53] seem very similar, which is weird, [49:56] right? Because if it's the same kind of [49:58] craft and the same kind of experiences [50:00] and the same kind of [50:01] >> like wouldn't they get better at it? [50:03] Like isn't there don't they have the [50:06] same ability to improve? [50:08] >> They might be better at it. They might [50:11] be better at it. We just are not good at [50:13] ascertaining if they have gotten better [50:15] at it. But so what if and this is kind [50:18] of what I've been exploring recently. [50:20] What if the you know our growth in [50:24] technology is pretty amazing. What if [50:27] the only way they can actually interface [50:29] with us in any super meaningful way [50:32] that's not creepy, right? What if it's [50:34] through AI? What if that so if religion [50:37] was a way for us to communicate with [50:41] non-human intelligences that kind of [50:43] evolved in different places, right? It's [50:46] like a technology itself, right? [50:47] Religion becomes these ways. You know, [50:50] if you look around and you see I noticed [50:52] that you had some cool Buddhist statues [50:54] out there. All right. So, if you look [50:56] around at religion, what is it that [50:59] people in religion do? A lot of them [51:01] pray in certain ways. Well, like why are [51:03] they doing that? what is prayer anyway? [51:05] Um some of the uh so you can see that [51:09] there's something that they're trying to [51:10] do. They're trying to interact contact [51:12] there's like a contact with these and so [51:16] what if AI all of a sudden is a [51:18] different form of contact. Um and I'll [51:20] give you a reason why I think this way [51:22] or that I'm speculating about it. Um [51:25] when I started to ask the people who [51:27] should know like Louzando and you know [51:30] the and before that Tyler and you know [51:33] um how put off and uh people like that [51:37] tell me what best if you were to [51:39] describe what it is we're dealing with [51:42] what best is the description and they [51:45] would always point me in the direction [51:46] of science fiction and they would say [51:48] read this read that and I was like [51:49] science fiction okay and I'd read it and [51:52] it would inevitably point to like a [51:54] technology that helps interface humans [51:57] with it. So that it's not us interfacing [52:00] because perhaps you remember you talked [52:01] about those faculties that you know [52:04] human beings have these faculties for [52:05] understanding reality but we can't [52:07] understand reality in its full reality [52:10] right we can't do that because we're [52:12] constrained by the ways in which we [52:14] perceive things those are the perceptual [52:17] faculties [52:18] >> um what if AI becomes a perceptual [52:21] faculty for us and we're able then to [52:24] you know interact with it so perhaps it [52:28] has has evolved and it's helped us [52:30] evolve too. [52:31] >> So that's what I'm trying to say. That [52:33] was a long answer to your to your [52:34] comment. [52:35] >> So perhaps AI is a bridge for helping us [52:39] interact with these things [52:41] >> communicate. [52:43] >> Okay. [52:44] Um so as far as what the government [52:47] knows and then deception [52:49] >> Yeah. [52:51] >> Why do you think that they don't [52:54] disclose all the information? [53:03] My personal opinion. [53:04] >> Yeah. [laughter] [53:05] >> Okay. So, this is nothing that I can [53:08] point to. Of course, I can't. You know, [53:10] there's no source for it. [53:12] >> Um, my personal opinion is because this [53:15] is uh above government. It's not theirs [53:19] to disclose. The government can't [53:20] disclose something that's not theirs to [53:22] disclose. [53:23] >> And what what do you mean by that? Um, I [53:25] mean that there's probably a group of [53:28] people that um [53:31] have this information or have parts of [53:34] the information. I don't even know if [53:36] one person has the whole story. It's [53:38] super compartmentalized. But my [53:41] intuition is that it's well, we know [53:45] that there are parts of it that are so [53:46] highly classified, right? We know that. [53:49] Mhm. [53:50] >> And so, um, yeah, it's like, you know, [53:54] they call presidents short- timerrs and [53:57] so forth. They're they're not read in [53:59] quote unquote to the to the program, [54:01] >> right? [54:02] >> So, I would What if it's like it's been [54:04] around for a long time and the people [54:06] who know about it have been around for a [54:07] long time, too? What if that's the case? [54:10] So, after after I um after I published [54:14] American Cosmic in 2019, I met other [54:16] people. So, you know, I met people who [54:19] indicated to me that they just basically [54:23] wanted me to not write anything else [54:25] about this stuff. They just were like, [54:27] "Why don't you just focus on what you [54:30] you know, your your Catholic stuff and [54:32] just like don't don't do this." [54:34] >> This episode is brought to you by [54:35] Visible. It's officially summer, folks. [54:37] And boy, what a summer we are having. It [54:40] feels like one of those good [54:41] oldfashioned summers where you just want [54:43] to enjoy every moment and keep up with [54:45] the action. your best companion this [54:48] summer. Visible wireless. Visible gives [54:50] you unlimited 5G data and unlimited [54:54] hotspot powered by Verizon for just $25 [54:57] a month. So you can make this the summer [55:00] of fun and savings. Visible is more than [55:03] just a wireless plan. It's unlimited [55:05] wireless designed to always keep you [55:07] connected with no contract to tie you [55:10] down. Switch today at visible.com. Plans [55:13] start at $25 a month or get our premium [55:17] Visible Plus Pro plan and save $10 on [55:21] your first month when you use promo code [55:23] Rogan. Terms apply. See visible.com for [55:27] plan features and network management [55:29] details. [55:29] >> And who did that? [55:31] >> Yeah. Yeah. Some people that I had met. [55:33] So um they they're people that are [55:36] associated with the government in the in [55:38] the fact that they're part of [55:40] intelligence communities and you know so [55:44] I was interested in what they had to say [55:47] and to me what they didn't tell me [55:50] anything Joe so I'm not going to tell [55:52] any secrets or anything that I don't [55:53] have them but um they they indicated to [55:57] me that [55:59] yeah this is this is like nobody's going [56:01] to know about [56:02] So people like uh [56:06] yeah so that's that's what I that [56:08] happened after American Cosmic part of [56:11] that went into encounters but not [56:14] >> so they what how did they [56:18] express this to you that they don't [56:19] think that you should be talking about [56:20] this? [56:21] >> Well they they didn't express it that [56:23] way. They just said that my time would [56:26] be better spent looking into other [56:28] aspects of uh religion. Did you say why? [56:33] >> Of course. I wanted to know. [56:34] >> And what did they say to that? [56:36] >> Well, [56:39] they didn't really say they didn't [56:41] really answer that question, but I guess [56:43] you could say that my experience with [56:46] them was my answer. My experience with [56:48] them was that [56:51] um [56:53] this was something that people weren't [56:54] going to know about and that these [56:56] secrets wouldn't be told. So you like [56:58] they're essentially saying to you, [57:00] you're wasting your time [57:02] >> pretty much. Yeah. [57:04] >> We're not going to tell anybody. You're [57:06] not going to get any more information. [57:08] What's out there is out there and that's [57:09] it. [57:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. [57:11] >> H what's your opinion like when you know [57:16] one of the things I'm I assume you saw [57:18] the age of disclosure the documentary. [57:20] >> Yeah, definitely. One of the things that [57:22] I thought was really uh interesting and [57:26] made sense in the age of disclosure was [57:29] this thought that if there are these [57:32] hidden programs [57:34] they uh have essentially misappropriated [57:38] funds and lied to Congress in order to [57:40] fund these things and all these things [57:42] are huge crimes and if they don't have [57:45] amnesty they're never going to disclose. [57:50] This is like Lou Alzando talked about or [57:52] all these different people talked about [57:53] this like the only way you're ever going [57:55] to get this information is by [58:00] giving some sort of mass amnesty to all [58:02] these people that are involved in these [58:03] programs so that they never have to [58:05] worry about being prosecuted. My problem [58:07] with that is when I hear something like [58:09] that and you're talking about [58:11] misappropriation of funds, you're [58:12] talking about lying to Congress, you're [58:14] talking about enormous amounts of money [58:15] that are involved in these programs. [58:17] Where did that money go? And did that [58:19] money all go to those programs or all [58:21] those really ethical people involved? Or [58:23] did a bunch of people get rich [58:25] bullshitting about this stuff? And is [58:28] that why they're calling for amnesty so [58:30] that they don't have to worry about [58:31] being prosecuted for stealing money? And [58:34] that's a lot of this, you know, [58:36] obfuscating, a lot of this confusion, a [58:39] lot of this misinformation is because [58:42] there's a lot of people that are in deep [58:43] [ __ ] if this gets disclosed. [58:48] So basically they're in deep [ __ ] if [58:50] they if the thing that gets disclosed is [58:53] that they've been stealing money. [58:55] >> Yeah. Well, listen, if you have complete [58:58] total autonomy, you you get an enormous [59:01] amount of money and you're working on [59:04] these programs, you you know, no one [59:07] knows where this money is going. And we [59:09] have a problem with that already, right? [59:11] Like we have a problem with the Pentagon [59:12] never passes budgets. Where' the money [59:14] go? [59:17] You know, that's like part of the issue. [59:20] What is this, Jamie? [59:22] >> Uh, long hidden UFO information at the [59:25] center of Trump push uh to free former [59:29] officials. Former employees can now [59:31] share information [59:32] >> with Arrow or the Purse Task Force [59:36] without fear of violating agreements. [59:38] So, this is new. [59:39] >> Yes, last week. [59:40] >> Oh, interesting. So, no one's officially [59:43] come forward as far as [59:45] >> Okay, that's but look how it says that [59:47] there. Scroll back up. It says without [59:49] violating agreements. That's not the [59:52] same thing I'm talking about. [59:53] >> It's not exactly, but this they have [59:54] NDAs and it's uh [59:56] >> right. That's another issue. But what [59:58] that doesn't it doesn't exonerate them [60:01] from lying to Congress or [60:02] misappropriating misappropriating funds. [60:05] That's part of the problem is that if [60:07] they have these [60:09] programs that are hidden and there's no [60:12] congressional oversight, there's no they [60:15] don't have to be audited. If [60:19] in all these in any government program [60:23] that has no oversight, you're going to [60:25] have waste and you're probably going to [60:27] have fraud and you're probably going to [60:29] have a bunch of people that are, you [60:31] know, essentially beyond reproach. They [60:33] have so much power and no oversight at [60:36] all. Like, put a little bit over here, [60:39] put a little bit over there, a little [60:40] bit of this, a little bit of that. Next [60:42] thing you know, these people are wealthy [60:44] for some reason that you can't explain. [60:46] Like, look what's going on with [60:47] Congress, with insider trading or people [60:49] that are making $170,000 a year worth [60:52] hundreds of millions of dollars, and no [60:54] one can explain why. [60:55] >> Yeah. Yeah. You got you have to imagine [60:59] that these people would also be tempted [61:01] to do that if they were involved in [61:03] these programs. So even if these [61:05] programs are real, let's say it, let's [61:08] say the research, the back engineering [61:10] research costs a billion dollars. Let's [61:13] make it say it cost three billion. [61:15] Where's that money going? Where's it all [61:17] going? Where'd it go? [61:19] >> You know, that's part of the problem [61:20] with having no oversight. [61:22] >> Yeah. Yeah. [61:23] >> No auditing, no oversight, and a bunch [61:25] of people that have [61:27] >> complete ability to hide anything [61:29] they're doing, [61:31] >> including [61:32] >> what they do with the money. [61:35] >> Yeah. Yeah. [61:36] >> And so if they've been doing that for [61:38] decades, [61:40] who knows how much fraud is involved. [61:43] >> Yeah. You have to assume like these are [61:45] human beings and human beings if they [61:48] have that level of power [61:51] >> and that level of secrecy [61:54] >> and no oversight at all. [61:57] And also they're working with defense [61:58] contractors. They're working like you [62:00] know [62:01] >> overse offshore accounts. There's a lot [62:04] of weird [ __ ] goes on. [62:05] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. Yeah. It could [62:07] be that. Do you think it is? [62:09] >> Yes. [62:10] >> Really? [62:10] >> Yes. [62:11] >> You think I think that's a factor? [62:12] >> Okay. Hey. All right. [62:13] >> I think that's a major factor in this [62:15] whole thing. [62:16] >> All right. So, [62:18] >> I think that's the that's the I think [62:20] that is probably the reason why you have [62:23] these calls for amnesty [62:25] because if you if you're talking about [62:27] amnesty like amnesty for what you guys [62:29] do something, what' you do? [62:31] Misappropriation of funds, lying to [62:33] Congress. Okay. So, you you don't want [62:35] to be in trouble for misappropriating [62:37] money and you don't want to be in [62:38] trouble for lying to Congress. What if [62:39] that does that include all the fraud [62:41] that potentially could have taken place? [62:43] >> And I'm not accusing anyone of fraud. I [62:45] don't I don't know anything. This is [62:47] pure tinfoil hat. Let's just talk [ __ ] [62:51] That's all this is. [62:51] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, you think it's just [62:53] basically a big like almost like a Ponzi [62:55] scheme. [62:55] >> I think that has to be an aspect of it [62:58] because that's an aspect of it in almost [62:59] all aspects of government. [63:01] >> I hear what you're saying. I guess uh [63:04] >> just think of the problem that was [63:06] exposed with Doge [63:08] >> with the NOS's where you find out that [63:11] there's literally billions of dollars [63:13] gets distributed and there's no record [63:15] of it. There's no receipts. [63:16] >> The bottom of that article here, [63:18] >> uh during the same event, former Air [63:20] Force intelligence officer Grush renewed [63:22] his allegations that the secret UAP [63:24] programs had operated outside normal [63:26] congressional oversight, calling it a [63:28] real fraud, waste, and abuse issue. [63:30] There it is. and claiming his [63:32] investigation uncovered slush funds to [63:35] the tune of billions of dollars perom [63:37] for these activities. The Pentagon has [63:39] disputed Gush's central claims and Arrow [63:42] has said its investigations found no [63:44] evidence, no verified evidence of [63:46] extraterrestrial technology or credible [63:49] evidence that the government has [63:50] secretly recovered or reverse engineered [63:53] craft of nonhuman origin. But yet there [63:56] he has talked about programs that he has [64:00] been read in on that are back [64:02] engineering programs. [64:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. I know. So like is it is it [64:08] slush fun? Yeah. To call it a slush fund [64:10] I think is really an interesting you [64:12] know term because that indicates that [64:14] that they're not doing anything right. [64:17] >> Doesn't necessarily. It could indicate [64:19] that they are doing something, but [64:20] they're also profiting wildly off of [64:23] this something that they're doing [64:24] because they don't have any oversight, [64:26] right? Which is when you get creepy [64:28] people that have incredible power like [64:31] that. That's just normal. Absolute power [64:34] corrupts. Absolutely. What's more [64:36] absolute power than you're [64:39] >> You have massive amounts of money, a [64:41] blank check, and [64:43] >> you're also you're in the [ __ ] super [64:45] secret top secret group. Yeah, [64:48] >> you're in the club of the people that [64:49] know the wink and the nod and you you're [64:52] going into these [ __ ] vaults in the [64:53] middle of the mountain and you're [64:54] looking at an alien spacecraft and [64:56] you've got bodies that are in [64:57] formaldahhide or whatever the [ __ ] [64:59] they're doing with them. You know, you [65:01] would think those guys could do whatever [65:03] the [ __ ] they want. [65:05] >> Yeah, that's right. [65:06] >> They're humans. [65:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. [65:07] >> And they're men. [65:08] >> Yeah. Yeah. [65:08] >> They're men that are probably very [65:10] ambitious and wealthy. [65:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. and they want to be more [65:13] wealthy and they got all this money [65:15] coming in and they're working on these [65:17] programs and then they can occasionally [65:20] show you some stuff. Look, this is what [65:22] we've discovered. This is what we've [65:23] figured out. This is what we can apply [65:25] to military technology. [65:28] >> Okay, so maybe Okay, so maybe that's it. [65:32] >> Pure speculation, right? No accusations. [65:35] I'm just saying if you had to look at it [65:37] from the least charitable perspective, [65:38] you have to say that's probably an [65:40] aspect of what we're dealing with. And [65:42] that seemed to me when I watched Age of [65:45] Disclosure from a cynical perspective, [65:47] I'm like, what is this? What is this [65:49] request for amnesty? What's what's the [65:52] Amnesty is a weird thing to say, you [65:54] know, like if you're People get [65:57] suspicious when you have amnesty? [65:58] >> Mhm. [65:59] >> Why do you want amnesty? [66:01] >> Yeah. [66:02] >> You're worried about like, are they [66:03] really going to prosecute people that [66:05] have misappropriated funds and lied to [66:07] Congress because they have alien [66:09] spacecrafts? [66:10] Is that really what Congress is going to [66:12] do now? They're going to go after these [66:13] people and say, "I look, I know you [66:16] finally did tell us that we have been [66:17] visited, that we have these down alien [66:19] crafts, but we're going to put you in [66:20] jail because you didn't tell us before [66:23] and because you lied to Congress and you [66:25] use these funds to backineer these [66:27] crafts." [66:27] >> Yeah. Yeah. [66:28] >> Does that really make sense that they [66:29] would put these people in jail for these [66:31] top secret government programs? [66:33] >> No. No. [66:35] >> Yeah, [66:36] >> I agree. Um, [66:37] >> I just think if you just factor in [66:40] people, [66:41] >> factor in people and blank checks, [66:44] >> I always say someone's get it's not like [66:47] these are the most benign altruistic [66:50] people that they like they're super [66:52] charitable and they only want to do the [66:54] right thing for humanity and they're [66:55] they're very comfortable with their [66:57] meager government salary. [66:58] >> Yeah. Yeah. [67:00] >> Probably not. Right. [67:02] >> Right. probably when you think about [67:03] human nature and people when they have [67:05] access to money especially that kind of [67:08] money that's crazy money [67:10] >> all right so if I can offer my like [67:13] speculation totally speculative [67:15] >> totally okay [67:16] >> I like I like this kind of talk [67:17] >> okay okay so remember that I start out [67:21] not caring about UFOs at all not [67:23] believing nothing like that right [67:25] >> just kind of doing my boring Catholic [67:27] scholarship stuff right boring well yeah [67:30] I didn't think so but you know geeky [67:31] stuff Right. Right. [67:32] >> Okay. Not interested in that scene. [67:37] All of a sudden become realize that [67:39] there's this historical continuity, [67:41] right, in the records [67:42] >> and there's physical evidence. [67:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. There's physical evidence [67:45] >> which is important for people to know [67:46] that maybe if they've never heard this [67:48] subject before and this is the first [67:50] podcast they've listened to. When we're [67:52] talking about Gary Nolan and some of the [67:53] things they've found at these crash [67:54] sites, we're talking about alloys that [67:57] you can't make here. [67:58] >> Yeah. There there's something about them [68:00] where they're layered at an atomic [68:02] level. It's there's some weird [ __ ] to [68:05] them. [68:05] >> That's right. And so I try to keep [68:09] myself [68:11] autonomous from the euphology narrative [68:16] either proposed by the government. By [68:18] the way, a lot of people are like it's [68:20] government sponsored. There's a lot of [68:21] government sponsored stuff out there [68:22] that you're getting. None of my stuff is [68:24] government sponsored. like I did this [68:26] totally autonomously on my own. Still do [68:30] completely, you know, I don't have a [68:32] publicist, you know, I'm not like out [68:34] there doing it like that. Um, that said, [68:38] I've met a lot of people and I've seen a [68:40] lot of things now since 2012 about the [68:42] topic. [68:43] >> And so, if I were to speculate about it, [68:46] and let me just describe some of the [68:48] things that that come into my brain [68:50] every once in a while when I'm thinking [68:51] about it, I'm like, okay. Um, you know [68:54] how Eric Weinstein talks about like he [68:57] would know the smart people, he would [68:59] know the physicists who would be on this [69:01] case, right? He would know these guys [69:03] because he knows physics. He's super [69:05] intelligent, [69:06] >> you know? Um, [69:08] >> but I don't think he does know them. And [69:10] part of the reason I say that is because [69:13] this is in 2014 or so, so a long time [69:16] ago. um when I'm you know when you're [69:20] doing something for so long and you're [69:21] in this community of people and you you [69:25] can't make stuff up like stuff happens [69:27] you were like that really happened and [69:29] one of the things that happened was that [69:30] I got to see that there were some you [69:34] know laboratories associated with the [69:36] government that people couldn't get into [69:38] you know it was like you couldn't go to [69:39] those and the people that worked there [69:42] were the best of the best like the the [69:45] laser people the people who knew lasers [69:47] and who, you know, they were better than [69:49] anybody at Yale. They were better than [69:51] anybody at Harvard or Stanford or [69:54] anything like that. They were the best. [69:56] Um, through knowing [snorts] me, Gary [69:58] got to go there. So, I have a witness, [70:00] you know, and so because they were [70:02] cultivating him. They were trying to [70:04] figure out if he could actually help [70:06] with with figuring out what this was. [70:08] So, those things are things that I noted [70:11] and I, you know, kept in the my file in [70:15] my brain. Right. Okay. Well, that's [70:16] weird. Uh there uh think about people [70:19] like Harold Malgrim, right? So, you [70:22] know, he had been a um he's a person who [70:25] is uh was an official to adviser to a [70:30] couple different presidents in the [70:32] capacity of military. So, super high [70:34] level clearance and everything like [70:36] that. He had been recruited, he was a [70:38] physicist at Cornell. He'd been [70:40] recruited when he was 27. So, this [70:43] happens. So, people do get taken into [70:46] these I don't know what you'd call them, [70:48] programs or whatnot, and they do work [70:50] and they have these clearances and [70:52] they're hidden just like um they're [70:56] hidden. Sometimes they're given fake job [70:58] titles and so forth, so people wouldn't [71:00] think. I see people online now saying, [71:03] "Oh, that person doesn't have that [71:04] clearance because they had this job." [71:07] How do you know? Like, seriously, how do [71:09] you know that? because the government is [71:11] really good at hiding these kinds of [71:13] things. So over the years, that was a [71:15] long time ago when this happened to me, [71:16] 2014, I started to form an idea, you [71:20] know, and it wasn't just that, it was [71:21] other types of of things that I learned [71:24] that there's something going on for [71:26] sure. And it is what they're saying, but [71:29] maybe it's not I don't know what they're [71:32] reverse engineering, if it's anomalous, [71:35] you know, from another planet or what it [71:38] is. Uh, I do know that they're they're [71:41] doing something and they've been doing [71:44] it and they're probably going to [71:45] continue to do it and that I don't think [71:49] they're going to share. [71:51] >> Yeah. And why would they? Especially if [71:52] it affects national defense. [71:55] >> And so part of what's happening now, you [71:58] know, with uh rich people getting into [72:00] this and trying to get the people in the [72:03] program to come out because that's what [72:04] that looks like when David Gush talks [72:06] about that. I'm thinking they're just [72:08] trying to get these people in the [72:09] program to come out and to, you know, so [72:11] they can they can get the technology, [72:13] right? And that's not I don't think [72:15] that's going to happen. I don't think [72:16] that's going to happen. [72:18] >> So, what do you think happens? Do you [72:20] think that they find very talented [72:22] physicists that are in universities and [72:25] they have these outreach programs where [72:27] they look for these people that are very [72:30] talented and they recruit them very [72:33] early on? [72:34] >> I think so. I think that they get [72:35] recruited really young. Uh 27 is [72:38] probably old to get recruited. Uh [72:40] >> which probably makes sense. Get them as [72:43] early as possible before they [72:44] >> get into the program [72:45] >> before they get involved in any sort of [72:48] commercial venture or any other company. [72:51] So, in um in my second book that I [72:54] written about it called Encounters, [72:55] there's a chapter called the Children of [72:57] the Invisles where I talk about um this [73:02] potential speculative group and it's [73:04] total speculation. [73:08] Have you heard Eric Weinstein's take on [73:11] there's a particular upstate university [73:14] uh upstate New York University that has [73:17] an completely overqualified physics [73:19] department that's also attached to a [73:21] hedge fund that does Bernie Maidoff type [73:23] numbers that don't make any sense at [73:25] all? [73:26] >> No, I didn't I haven't seen that one. [73:28] Yeah, it's he talks about it and this [73:30] one particular university he is keen on [73:35] this might be something [73:37] >> because he's like it doesn't make any [73:39] sense that these insanely talented [73:41] physicists are all in this one place and [73:43] no real research comes out of it. no [73:46] real nothing gets done, but yet they're [73:48] also attached to this hedge fund that [73:50] does these insane numbers that don't [73:52] make any sense at all, which is a great [73:54] way to just funnel money through and [73:56] keep these programs running that are [73:58] completely top secret. And these people [73:59] aren't publishing. They don't have [74:01] anything. These insanely talented [74:03] physicists are not really getting [74:04] anything done. [laughter] [74:06] >> Yeah. They get fired at my university if [74:08] they weren't publishing. [74:09] >> Right. Right. There's something there's [74:11] something weird about it, he says. Yeah. [74:13] >> And he keeps pointing to this one. Do [74:14] you remember that? What what they [74:16] >> Stony Brook and Renaissance Technologies [74:18] is the [74:18] >> Yes, that's it. [74:20] >> He's He's like, if there's something [74:22] there, if there's a there there, that's [74:24] where it's at. [74:26] >> Yeah. Which makes sense. Like if you had [74:30] some big time program like [74:33] um I know a guy who uh was a professor. [74:38] Uh so he was uh teaching at a [74:40] university. I probably shouldn't say [74:42] what he's teaching. He was also a CIA [74:45] operative. So he would literally um be [74:49] involved in [ __ ] gunfights and then a [74:53] week later he would be, you know, they [74:55] would extract they [74:58] take people. They they' do all this [75:00] crazy CIA super secret operative [ __ ] A [75:04] week later he's teaching university [75:05] courses. [75:07] >> Yeah. [75:08] >> Yeah. Like Indiana Jones on steroids. [75:10] like this guy was like really doing that [75:13] >> which is like wo okay. So if you have [75:17] this university where you have these [75:19] people that are teaching these classes [75:20] like this is and they're probably [75:22] looking for super super talented [75:25] physicists that are coming up to recruit [75:28] into these programs. But what they're [75:30] doing as far as their, you know, air [75:32] quotes research that's public is [75:34] nonsense. And what they're what they're [75:36] really doing is working on something [75:38] probably some sort of very novel [75:41] propulsion system. [75:43] >> And that's what Weinstein thinks. [75:46] And he thinks that a lot of this stuff [75:49] that people are seeing in the sky is [75:51] probably ours. [75:53] >> So that's right. So say it's ours and [75:56] say he's right. Okay. So, but I guess my [76:00] point is, [76:02] are you, you know, then shouldn't that [76:05] be okay? Shouldn't we be okay with that? [76:07] Because isn't, aren't they, aren't we [76:10] Americans? Aren't they like helping us? [76:12] >> Well, if that's the case, yes, [76:14] certainly. Why would we try to get them [76:16] to come out and, you know, and like [76:18] force them out? [76:20] >> Well, we certainly don't want that [76:21] information to get to China or Russia. [76:23] we if there is some sort of a race to [76:26] develop a novel propulsion system like [76:28] who was it Jamie that was in here that [76:30] was saying that one of the uses for this [76:33] technology would be instantaneous [76:36] delivery systems of nuclear weapons. [76:39] So you know when we're talking about [76:41] these propulsion systems that [76:43] essentially they're folding space [76:46] folding space and time or they can [76:49] instead of going from point A to point B [76:52] which is like you know a thousand lighty [76:54] years instead of doing it in however [76:58] much time it would take to travel that [76:59] through even if you're going the speed [77:01] of light you go instantaneously because [77:04] you're essentially folding space and [77:05] time and just appearing in this new [77:08] place. Well, you could do that with a [77:10] bomb. And so instead of like a missile [77:13] having to fly to Beijing or Moscow, it [77:17] instantaneously arrives and detonates. [77:20] And that this was one of the proposed [77:22] uses of this technology, which is [77:25] [ __ ] terrifying. [77:26] >> Yeah. [77:27] >> That these knuckleheads are taking this [77:30] incredibly potent technology that these [77:32] extraterrestrials have used to get here [77:35] from another planet. And we were like, [77:37] wouldn't that be a dope way to deliver a [77:39] bomb? [77:40] >> Yeah. [77:40] >> And then they're working on that. [77:42] >> Yeah. [77:42] >> But it's also, isn't it their [77:45] responsibility to do that? Because if [77:48] China figures out how to do that or [77:50] Russia figures out how to do that or [77:51] Iran figures out how to do that, [77:53] >> you've got a real problem. [77:55] >> So this was what remember you asked me [77:57] those people that I met like after [77:59] American Cosmic gets published. All [78:01] right. So this is pretty much the line [78:03] they gave me was that Diana [78:06] it's best to talk about this stuff about [78:08] morality and you know Christian stuff [78:11] and so forth because look what we're [78:14] doing is we're keeping us safe in the [78:16] United States and do you really want uh [78:20] a non-ally to have you know an enemy to [78:22] have this technology? I'm like well no [78:25] of course not you know I mean so yeah [78:27] what can you say to an argument like [78:28] that other than well yeah that would be [78:30] terrible. Well, if I believe them and if [78:32] they're being if it's true and they're [78:34] just looking out for the interest of [78:36] America, 100% I'm with them. I get it. I [78:38] understand. I mean, I don't know. [78:40] >> I know. That's the problem is I'm never [78:42] going to point fingers and go, "Fuck [78:44] those guys. They need to tell us [78:45] everything." [78:45] >> Right. [78:46] >> The problem is you're telling everybody [78:47] in the world everything, then you're [78:49] telling China everything. You're telling [78:51] Russia everything. [78:51] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. That's right. [78:53] >> I get it. And I get that. That's why if [78:56] say the Roswell crash of 1947, if that [78:58] is legit and if they really did fly it [79:00] out to Wright Air Force Base in, you [79:03] know, two separate planes just in case [79:05] one of them crashed, if that's really [79:06] the the case and the the the lore is [79:09] that Truman met them there and that they [79:12] disclose that they have this craft and [79:14] they have this material. You have so [79:16] many different people that were at that [79:17] crash site that have very similar [79:19] stories. [79:20] >> Yeah. And then you also have this [79:24] very [79:26] shortly after that you have technologies [79:28] emerge. [79:29] >> You have fiber optics, transistors, a [79:31] lot of and weird [ __ ] that's attached to [79:33] them in terms of like the providence of [79:35] like how these technologies were evolved [79:37] and developed. [79:38] >> There's some sketchy [ __ ] involved in [79:40] that. And the allegation is that this is [79:43] something that's been reverse [79:44] engineered. [79:47] And then okay, well you you don't want [79:49] that getting to someone else. Yeah. [79:51] >> Right. If if we are [79:54] >> involved in conflicts with other [79:55] nations, and we most certainly are, why [79:58] would you you got to keep that stuff [79:59] secret? So I get that argument as well. [80:01] And if so, if extraterrestrial [80:03] technology is real and that we do have [80:06] crafts and saying extraterrestrial is [80:09] just a placeholder word for whatever it [80:10] is, interdimensional, whatever it is, [80:12] some super advanced nonhuman [80:15] intelligence created technology. If it [80:19] does exist, yeah, I would say from a [80:21] national security perspective, yeah, [80:23] you've got to keep that under wraps. [80:25] Especially if we don't truly understand [80:27] it. If we don't truly understand it, [80:29] we're not really capable of making it. [80:32] Yeah. [80:35] I mean, the way Lazar describes the [80:37] craft itself, it was like it was 3D [80:38] printed. Well, there was no 3D printing [80:40] in 1989, right? Well, there is now that [80:43] we [80:44] >> that we know of, but there is now. But [80:45] that's the thing is this that we know [80:47] of. There's only so far you can go with [80:52] that that line of thinking is when you [80:57] go back far enough it doesn't work. So [81:00] like you go back to 1947 1947 you're [81:04] dealing with propeller planes. [81:07] Okay, propeller planes and then also [81:09] novel propulsion systems that can inst [81:11] instantaneously travel from one place to [81:14] another. You know, they can go like what [81:17] happened with the Tic Tac where where [81:19] they have it on radar going from 50,000 [81:23] ft down to sea level in less than a [81:27] second. [81:28] >> So that's that's technology that we had [81:31] in 2004. [81:33] That doesn't seem likely, right? And it [81:36] it might be the case, but then you go [81:39] far enough back to like um [81:43] like the the what was the guy's name? [81:46] Kenneth Arnold. [81:47] >> Yeah. [81:48] >> Th those sightings which was what 47 [81:51] >> 47. Okay. Well, that's there's no way [81:53] >> like a couple months like [81:54] >> right [81:55] >> after Roswell before Roswell I can't [81:57] remember. [81:58] >> So that's there's no way we didn't have [82:00] that technology then. There's no way [82:02] they would have such superior advanced [82:05] technology that our fighter jets look [82:07] like toys. They just whiz past them. [82:10] >> Well, I hear that, but but I don't know [82:12] if you've seen the images of Kenneth [82:15] Arnold's plane, but it looks like that [82:17] German fighter plane. So, it looks [82:19] exactly like that. Maybe we reverse [82:21] engineered that and had it. I don't [82:23] know. I'm just saying that [82:24] >> Kenneth Arnold's plane was only capable [82:26] of going like how fast? It wasn't that [82:28] fast. And this thing these these crafts [82:31] were going way faster. Yeah. This is [82:33] what he said he saw. Like he's got a [82:35] [ __ ] propeller plane. [82:36] >> I did just look up the first uh turbo [82:38] jet engine plane was 1941. [82:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. [82:42] >> Whoa. I didn't know that. Were they [82:44] using that for fighter jets back then? [82:46] >> 1947 was there was them flying around [82:48] World War II. [82:49] >> Uh in 47 they had fighter jets that had [82:52] um [82:55] propeller turbo jet. Yeah. But a a turbo [82:58] jet is a propeller. per uh here's the [83:01] >> like if you fly I've flown in turbo jet [83:03] propeller planes before and they're [83:06] pretty dope. [83:06] >> Those are the pictures coming up. [83:08] >> Oh, okay. So, that does look like a jet [83:10] engine. [83:10] >> It's definitely something different, [83:12] >> right? Was that What did the planes look [83:14] like back then? So, pull up a a fighter [83:16] jet from 1947. See, those are [83:20] >> the It was a It was a specific plane [83:23] that looked exactly like what he saw. It [83:26] was a German plane. Well, that one that [83:28] Jamie just pulled up is pretty crazy [83:30] because it's circular. [83:31] >> No, I know. But the other ones looked I [83:32] mean, literally exactly. They were [83:34] called uh they uh wing planes cuz they [83:38] they looked like wings basically. [83:40] >> I understand. But even that those right [83:43] there, those are still propeller planes. [83:46] >> That is what Kenneth Arnold says he saw. [83:48] That's totally different. Yeah. Like [83:50] whatever the [ __ ] that is. It's crazy. [83:52] And he saw that thing skipping across [83:54] the sky. [83:55] >> Okay. Wait a minute, Jamie. If you can [83:58] Keep going. So, the idea that our best [84:00] [ __ ] [84:00] >> it's ho something. [84:02] >> Okay. The idea that our best [ __ ] is [84:04] propeller planes, but yet we also have [84:06] these things with no visible means of [84:09] propulsion that are all flying at 1,000 [84:12] miles an hour or whatever it was. [84:14] Several thousand miles an hour. [84:15] >> Couldn't have been quiet either, [84:16] >> right? [clears throat] Yeah. It's just [84:18] weird. It's if you go back far enough, [84:21] it doesn't make sense that there's [84:24] superior technology that's not being [84:26] utilized ubiquitously across the entire [84:29] military. [84:31] >> Well, I think that most likely if they [84:33] they have something that they want. [84:34] Okay. So, this is again speculation. All [84:36] right. [84:37] >> Right. [84:37] >> I don't know. I entertained the idea. [84:39] >> This is 80 years ago. [84:40] >> No, I know that I entertained the [84:42] possibility that they had some pretty [84:44] amazing stuff. [84:45] >> I don't [84:45] >> Okay. I don't I just don't think that's [84:47] possible. [84:48] >> I think that we still have it. And [84:49] that's what [84:50] >> maybe today I I would say in 2026, 80 [84:53] years later with all the technological [84:54] advancement, maybe there's some crazy [84:56] [ __ ] that they have today. And I bet [84:57] there is. Look at this thing. [84:59] >> This is a German bomber from [85:02] >> That's what I'm saying. Just like that. [85:03] >> All right. You got to believe that. [85:06] >> But that's just You're a witness. No. [85:08] No. That's an [85:09] >> That's not a Is that a photograph? [85:10] >> No, they have a photograph of those. I [85:12] am not kidding. [85:13] >> Stick them with your I was trying to [85:14] just start with that. No. [85:15] >> Yeah. So, look at that upper left hand [85:17] corner. It says secret Nazi UFO. [85:20] >> Yeah. [85:20] >> But are these photographs? [85:22] >> Yes, they're photograph. It could be AI, [85:24] but that's [85:24] >> No, it's not. [85:25] >> I'm just And I'm just to be uh [85:27] >> Okay. Well, what does it say up there? [85:28] It says uh a Horton [85:31] 229. A German prototype. [85:33] >> Yeah. [85:34] >> Plane from 1945. [85:35] >> So, so literally, See, I'm telling you, [85:38] Joe, this looks exactly like Arnold's uh [85:42] It does UFO. [85:43] >> It really does. a jet powered flying [85:46] wingcraft. That looks that literally [85:47] looks exactly like it. [85:48] >> So, if I'm right about that, then you [85:50] should like listen to my speculations, [85:52] >> right? But how fast did this go? [85:54] >> All right. Let's see. [85:57] >> That's pretty dope. [85:58] >> Could have been pushing it to the limit. [85:59] >> I can't believe they had something like [86:00] that, [86:01] >> you know? [86:01] >> How are the Germans so [ __ ] advanced? [86:03] >> I know. [86:04] >> And so evil at the same time. Like, what [86:06] the hell? [86:08] >> Okay. Designed. [86:12] Where? Where is it? [86:14] >> 560 mph. [86:16] >> 600 mph. [86:17] >> And how fast was Ken Kenneth Arnold's [86:20] craft able to go? 621 miles an hour. [86:23] >> Wow. [86:24] >> So, you know, he saw these in [86:26] information. So, we were most likely [86:28] doing something with those. [86:30] >> We [86:31] >> what? United States. [86:32] >> The United States. So, you think that we [86:34] had acquired that technology? [86:36] >> We did. We we acquired it. We were [86:37] utilizing it. [86:38] >> Right. So, Operation Paperclip, we [86:40] brought over a bunch of these Nazi [86:42] scientists. And so, you think that what [86:44] he saw was these Nazi crafts. [86:47] >> Yeah. [86:47] >> That they had [86:49] >> Yes, I think so. But that doesn't take [86:51] out a lot of weirdness about it because [86:53] he also had a lot of very strange [86:55] anomalous experiences, men in black [86:58] experiences, paranormal experiences. [87:00] >> Kenneth Arnold did. [87:01] >> Yeah. So, and Yeah. And to to him, he [87:04] interpreted this as being religious. Is [87:07] there a video of that German thing [87:09] flying? [87:09] >> I was just looking at the the first [87:10] comment says, "It should be noted this [87:12] is a full-scale mockup made for radar [87:14] testing by North the Brumman for a net [87:16] geo documentary, not the actual HO229, [87:19] that picture I put up." [87:20] >> Oh, interesting. Is there any actual [87:23] documented photographs of the HO229? [87:27] >> Um, that's I'm going to go with if there [87:29] was only three of them and they weren't [87:31] ours. So we know that jets existed in 41 [87:35] and so and the the Nazis had really [87:38] advanced technology in terms of [87:40] automobiles, in terms of engineering, [87:43] rocketry. They were way more advanced [87:44] than us, which is why we took all those [87:47] Nazi scientists. [87:48] >> Yeah. [87:48] >> From Operation Paperclip [87:50] >> and ignored their war crimes so that [87:52] they could work for NASA. And they had a [87:54] they had an important uh weapon too that [87:57] we never talk about that we also took a [88:01] form of propaganda. [88:03] They had propaganda specific form not [88:05] the kind that you can Google and see [88:07] Nazi propaganda and stuff like that. [88:09] Like a really effective form of [88:11] propaganda. [88:12] >> What how in what way would they have? [88:15] >> Um so that's another thing. So uh [88:18] >> so this is an actual photograph of it. [88:21] >> Whoa. So, if you saw that thing flying [88:23] through the sky in 1947, you would [88:26] probably think that's from another [88:27] planet. [88:28] >> That totally looks like an a space. I [88:31] remember um after September 11th in [88:35] 2001, I was filming Fear Factor and we [88:39] were in uh Southern California near [88:43] [sighs] what is the base that's out [88:44] there? Is it Edwards? Um, we're we're [88:47] near one of the Air Force bases and I [88:49] saw a stealth bomber fly overhead and it [88:52] looks like it's from another planet. It [88:54] looks so crazy. We stopped filming. We [88:56] were like, "Dude, what the [ __ ] It [89:00] looks like Darth Vader's flying it." [89:02] >> Yeah. [89:02] >> You know, it's so weird. [89:04] >> Yeah. [89:05] >> It doesn't seem like it's ours now. I [89:07] know it is and I know they exist, but if [89:09] I didn't [89:10] >> and I saw that. [89:11] >> Yeah. So, you got to assume also that if [89:14] I saw it in 2001, [89:17] >> maybe they had it in 1999, maybe they [89:20] had it in 1989, maybe they had it in 79. [89:23] Yep. [89:23] >> Maybe they had something like that. [89:25] >> So, that article says that we found that [89:27] prototype in Germany, brought it back, [89:29] and then this is what North potentially [89:31] made after. [89:32] >> So, this is a this is a wing powered by [89:35] propellers, though. [89:36] >> We didn't know how to make those jets, [89:38] >> right? And so they probably put the jets [89:40] on it later. But [ __ ] that looks alien. [89:44] >> Yeah. [89:44] >> So when you think of the Kenneth Arnold [89:45] sighting and you think of the [89:47] description that he had, it's very [89:48] similar to that. [89:49] >> Yeah. [89:50] >> So that might have been it. [89:51] >> Yeah. Yeah. [89:51] >> But that doesn't that doesn't jive with [89:54] the tic tac. The tic tac's bananas. [89:56] >> Yeah, it is. It is. [89:57] >> Like that the speed that that thing [89:59] moved, every human being inside of it, [90:02] if there was a person flying in that, [90:03] they would have got turned into jello-. [90:05] Yeah. [90:05] >> Just from the G-forces. [90:07] >> That's right. That's right. [90:08] >> Also, there's no material that we have [90:10] that could survive that kind of speed. [90:12] >> Yeah. [90:14] Um I know [90:15] >> see this came out in those I think this [90:16] came out in those alien document or one [90:18] of the dumps. [90:20] >> Yeah. [90:20] >> So this is a lot of people have said [90:22] that it's Lockheed Martin created that [90:24] thing and that is exactly what it looked [90:27] like including those weird things at the [90:29] bottom. Mhm. [90:30] >> Those weird things at the bottom, [90:32] whatever that those little [90:34] whatever those little tube looking [90:36] things at the bottom of it, that is part [90:38] of what they describe when they said [90:40] they saw the tic tac. And there have [90:42] been people in the air quotes disclosure [90:45] movement that have said openly that [90:48] thing was a Lockheed Martin device. [90:51] >> Yeah, that's right. [90:53] >> Okay. So, that's the case. What What is [90:58] that? And how's that thing moving and [91:00] how's it moving that way in 2004? [91:04] >> Yeah. [91:04] >> And if Loheed Martin has this kind of [91:06] technology 22 years ago, [91:10] >> yeah, [91:10] >> that that baffles me and that defies [91:15] your imagination just runs wild. Like [91:18] >> so that's my point is that you know if [91:20] if this is happening and this has been [91:22] happening um it's like it's well this is [91:26] something that's [91:28] kept well guarded and even I don't think [91:32] even with the disclosure today I don't [91:35] think that push is gonna is going to be [91:37] effective is going to [91:39] >> I see what you're saying so that thing [91:41] from the disclosure dump from [91:43] >> I'm looking at more info right now [91:45] >> what is that [91:46] >> what the perplexity has to say about it [91:48] it's not a hoax real or uh it's [91:50] certainly a ho wait [91:51] >> almost certainly a hoax [91:53] >> oh how dare you perplexity [91:56] >> boo but what perplexity getting this [91:58] information from. [92:00] So it says what the story claims a [92:02] document circulating on social media [92:03] since August of 2025 purports to be a [92:06] leaked Lockheed Martin CIA flight manual [92:09] for a craft called the CL957 [92:12] Gen 2 nickname Tic Tac per the claims [92:15] Instagram skunk works post someone made [92:18] it on Reddit it says [92:20] >> okay of course Jason Wild on X Reddit [92:24] forensic breakdown Tana YouTube analysis [92:27] no providence nothing in the freedom of [92:29] information act archives. Uh the CIA [92:32] crest database, black vault or national [92:34] archive references, CL 957 or orbit [92:38] lance real black programs. Ox cart uh [92:42] have blue tactic blue all eventually [92:44] left paper trails. Wrong designation [92:46] scheme locked CL um blank blank blank [92:50] California temporary design numbers are [92:52] documented. CL282 CL1200 [92:57] Lancer etc. and CL 957 doesn't appear in [93:00] any credible listing document artifacts [93:03] analyst flag typography [93:06] formatting and classification marking [93:09] inconsistencies versus real technical [93:11] orders plus anacronistic [93:14] F-22 references and an odd CIA series [93:17] aircraft phase phrasing h [93:20] >> it's only been found on social media [93:21] nowhere else [93:22] >> well then it's real [snorts] [93:24] you know that X is the news now don't [93:26] you pay attention [93:28] God, Jamie, sorry. [93:31] I want to believe I want to believe that [93:32] Loheed Martin has that. They might [93:34] >> Well, we always have Travis Walton. [93:36] >> Yeah, but like Travis is one guy with [93:38] one story. Very interesting. [93:40] >> There's a lot of them, though. [93:41] >> Yeah. Oh, 100%. There's There's a lot of [93:44] weird stories. And there's a lot of [93:45] weird stories of what Travis the the the [93:48] thing is the real problem is once it [93:53] becomes iconic, right? Like once there's [93:57] once there's once there's a story that [93:59] gets out there like uh Betty and Barney [94:01] Hill for instance. [94:02] >> Yeah. [94:03] >> You hear that story and then that story [94:05] becomes a part of folklore. That story [94:07] becomes a part of people's imagination [94:09] and when you start thinking about grays, [94:12] you immediately start thinking about [94:13] Whitley Striber, right? You start [94:14] thinking about communion, you start [94:16] thinking about close encounters. So you [94:18] already have these images in your mind [94:19] of what these things are supposed to [94:20] look like. That's right. Yeah. [94:21] >> And that's a part of the problem, right? [94:23] >> Uh kind of. Yeah. Yeah, [94:25] >> that is a part of the problem. Um, I was [94:29] going to go down another path. [94:30] >> Okay. [94:31] >> Okay. So, about reverse engineering [94:33] stuff like how does this work, [94:35] >> right? [94:35] >> All right. So, one of the things that I [94:37] came to like understand was that um a [94:41] couple of people told me about this and [94:43] it was nothing that they intended to [94:45] tell me by the way, but I asked. So, you [94:47] know, Tyler was was doing this reverse [94:49] engineering type of thing. He's trying [94:51] to find people to help him with with [94:52] this. And he would have what he thought [94:55] were or alleged [snorts] [94:57] UFO debris that he had found at various [94:59] places like in New Mexico and so forth. [95:01] And then what he had to do was he had to [95:04] get together a group of engineers that [95:07] could actually reverse engineer it. And [95:09] he would tell them, he wouldn't say this [95:12] is a UFO or this is, you know, something [95:14] found in the desert. No, no. He would [95:16] say this is China's or this is Russia's [95:19] and we need in order to keep our you [95:21] know dominance or whatnot we need to get [95:22] this reverse engineered pronto and that [95:25] this lie would then motivate these guys [95:29] okay and that they would reverse [95:30] engineer this and he would come up with [95:32] something okay so later on I would [95:34] listen to how and how would give these [95:36] these talks how put off by the way who's [95:39] who's one of the people that is [95:41] interested in UFOs and knows a lot about [95:44] them and so He gave this talk at the [95:47] inaugural soul conference and I was [95:48] there. Um, and so I was listening to him [95:51] and to me it sounded like what he was [95:53] saying was exactly what Tyler was saying [95:55] that he was saying, "We have this, you [95:57] know, but we don't actually know how to [96:00] do this, how to backineer this, so we're [96:02] going to give it to this talented group [96:04] of people and we're going to tell them [96:06] that this was already made, but a a [96:08] nonally, like an enemy had it." So [96:11] basically by telling them this they [96:14] would then [96:16] like in a sense do kind of like a a [96:18] trick on their minds and they would [96:20] actually reverse engineer it. They would [96:22] reverse engineer something that he said [96:24] already existed. So in a sense it was [96:26] like um not only working with time in a [96:29] weird way like kind of like you know [96:30] projecting what was going to be in the [96:32] future telling them it already had been [96:34] done. So that made me think this is like [96:37] the propaganda that I'm talking about [96:38] and that you just started to talk about. [96:40] Like if we could then on a mass scale [96:43] tell people that we have something or [96:45] this is the case maybe there would be a [96:49] critical like mental construct and [96:52] people would actually do something or [96:55] rise to the occasion or something like [96:56] that. That could have been propaganda [96:59] for the space race, right? That could [97:02] have been like the moon landing stuff [97:04] like you know uh I'm not saying that [97:06] didn't happen by the way. I'm saying [97:08] that you know part of it was a way to [97:10] get Americans to win the space race we [97:13] had to already believe that we won it [97:16] right. In order to create this stuff we [97:18] already have to believe that someone [97:19] else created it. It's like the five [97:21] minute mile. [97:22] >> Mhm. [97:23] >> You see what I'm saying? So [97:24] >> four minute right? [97:25] >> Yeah. That why maybe it's a five minute [97:27] to me. [laughter] [97:29] The women's five minute mile right. No, [97:31] the four-minute mile. That's right. So, [97:33] we already had to believe that it had [97:35] been done in order to do it, [97:37] >> right? Because once someone broke it, [97:39] then a bunch of people broke it. [97:41] >> Yeah. Yeah. That's right. So, so Oh, and [97:44] then I was asked by people who are um in [97:49] the government to speak to inter agency [97:53] like people, scientists. And so they [97:56] would have me talk to these scientists, [97:57] like 50 of them, right, from various [98:00] parts of the government, and basically [98:01] tell them the story of like American [98:03] Cosmic. And I was like, okay, I'll do [98:06] that. Why? You know, they didn't say [98:08] anything about why. But I started to [98:10] think maybe this is like a how put off [98:12] thing or maybe this is like a Tyler [98:13] thing that I'm doing this for them so [98:15] that their brains can think this has [98:17] already been done. We better do this. M. [98:21] So when when you say the sophisticated [98:22] propaganda that the Nazis have that that [98:25] we took this technology from them like [98:27] what do you mean by that like what was [98:29] their tech what what was unique about [98:31] their propaganda? [98:33] >> All right. So I don't know exactly but I [98:35] do have some ideas and two of the ideas [98:39] I have are what I just told you that if [98:41] you can seed the population with images [98:45] and belief you know that will impact [98:47] their belief you can change it. Okay [98:50] there's that one but there's also the [98:51] one that you know Bill Cooper's book um [98:55] >> Behold Pay a horse. Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [98:57] Okay. So in behold a to pay a horse he [98:59] talks about the quiet weapons where he's [99:02] talking about basically technology and [99:04] how technology is going to [99:07] engineer consent and he's talking about [99:09] this in I don't know what exactly when [99:11] he read that [99:12] >> engineer consent [99:13] >> yeah engineer consent of the population [99:15] about certain things and you do that [99:17] through uh utilizing social media well [99:22] he's not calling it that he's calling it [99:23] quiet weapons but you know back then [99:26] putting stuff on TV and you know [99:29] creating a narrative that people buy [99:31] into and believe and he said that this [99:34] is going to uh you see this by the way [99:36] with Arthur C. Clark in his book in his [99:40] short story childhood's end or no it's a [99:42] book um where you know that he's talking [99:44] about aliens where these aliens are [99:46] engineering humanity through technology [99:49] through social media and things like [99:51] that [99:53] [clears throat] [99:53] >> so this could be what the Nazi [99:56] propaganda the weapon is that it could [99:59] be used as a weapon but it could also be [100:01] used for good [snorts] [100:02] >> and it could be used to facilitate [100:05] technological innovation by telling them [100:08] that it's already been done. [100:09] >> Yeah. Yeah. Um, you know, when I was I [100:13] was uh I ran in college, so I was a [100:16] college runner uh for track and cross [100:18] country and I had a great team of [100:22] coaches who would teach us sports [100:24] psychology and part of what we would do [100:27] would be we would already see us [100:29] winning. We would already see and they [100:30] would also tell us so and so ran this, [100:33] you know, you can do this. So in a sense [100:35] they were utilizing that on our team and [100:38] it it was good. It was you know helpful. [100:43] >> Right. Well it's it's very important [100:45] your mindset especially when it comes to [100:47] athletics because there's so much that's [100:50] involved in competition that's [100:51] psychological. [100:52] >> Yeah. [100:53] >> Do you think that that also is the case [100:56] when it comes to technological [100:57] innovation? [100:58] >> Definitely. You have to believe that it [101:00] can be done or that it has been done and [101:02] that it helps you figure out the [101:04] pathway. [101:05] >> I mean, this is what I'm telling you. [101:07] So, with the the people that I just [101:09] talked about, we're talking about Tyler, [101:10] right? We're talking about um then how [101:13] even though I don't think he'd say that [101:14] that's what he was do doing or talking [101:16] about, that's what I interpreted his [101:18] talk to be. And he's talking, you know, [101:20] he's he has some really interesting [101:22] >> uh ideas about physics and matter and [101:25] reality and so forth. Um and then later [101:28] on uh yeah that's what I think you know [101:31] I think that that works that actually [101:33] works [101:33] >> it makes sense that it would that the [101:36] blocks that people have in their mind [101:37] about what is and what is not possible [101:40] that if you say not only is it possible [101:41] it's already been done so [101:42] >> yeah so yeah so I don't know like when [101:45] we start to talk about like the various [101:47] things that we've been talking about [101:48] like you know if this is real and that [101:50] happened and so forth maybe that's what [101:52] the they're trying to get us not to talk [101:56] about The really interesting things like [101:57] maybe that, you know, that form of what [102:00] what could be a form of mind control. [102:03] >> I understand that. But when it comes to [102:04] technology that could have military [102:07] applications and that we've had all [102:09] these military conflicts, you would [102:11] imagine that you would see some of this [102:12] stuff being utilized. And there's no [102:15] real evidence that there has been like [102:17] there's no evidence from Iraq or [102:19] Afghanistan from any of those conflicts [102:22] that we had something that moves faster [102:24] than the speed of light and that we have [102:26] weapons that were indescribable [102:29] until Nicaragua. [102:31] So, or Venezuela rather, the the [102:34] Venezuelan contact where we um conflict [102:37] rather where we abducted the president [102:39] and we came in and incapacitated [102:41] everybody with some sort of a sound [102:43] weapon like that all stuff sounds like [102:46] super science fictiony and when you [102:49] realize like that is real, they [102:51] absolutely did that. So they have had [102:54] something for a long time that can do [102:57] things that are beyond our understanding [103:00] of what we thought was possible. [103:02] >> Yeah. Yeah. [103:04] >> How put off had that crazy story about [103:05] when he was working for the Bush [103:06] administration where they brought him in [103:08] with a bunch of other scientists about [103:10] thought leaders. [103:11] >> Yeah. And they said we are going to [103:12] disclose that there are alien crafts and [103:15] that we have biological remains of [103:17] creatures from some other place. what is [103:20] the negative and what are the positive [103:22] impacts of this and I want you to put a [103:24] numerical value on each one of them and [103:27] tell us what what the result is and all [103:30] all the people that they brought in all [103:32] had similar conclusions when they said [103:35] how's it going to impact government [103:36] how's it going to impact religion how's [103:38] it going to impact society or economy [103:41] there's way more negative than there is [103:42] positive and so they decided not to [103:44] disclose and when he tells that story [103:46] just like [103:48] god that tracks that tracks like that [103:50] they would do that that they would say [103:52] maybe we should tell everybody but this [103:54] is going to be the impact. [103:57] >> My belief is that's a temporary impact [104:00] and that societyy's going to continue to [104:01] function because it's pragmatic. We're [104:03] going to have to you're going to have to [104:04] have an economy. You're going to have to [104:06] have government. You're going to have to [104:06] have all these things while also knowing [104:09] we're not alone. And maybe that would [104:11] help dissolve some of the conflicts that [104:14] we have because if we think that we're [104:15] the only gang in town and then there's [104:18] another gang over there and we're duking [104:19] it out with them. [104:21] >> If we find out well actually there's a [104:22] gang from another planet that's that's [104:25] the Reagan speech to the United Nations [104:27] that all the UFO dorks went like, "Oh, [104:30] he's telling us something that if we [104:32] were faced with a threat from another [104:33] world, how quickly we would put aside [104:35] our differences." [104:36] >> Yep. That's right. Yeah. [104:37] >> Yeah. [104:38] >> I mean, yeah. I I I'm with you. I think [104:41] that people won't be um they won't go [104:44] into shock and things, [104:45] >> but it would temporarily disrupt [104:47] everything. And that therein lies the [104:49] problem. The problem is the collapse of [104:51] the economy, global trust in government. [104:55] Like if the government really isn't the [104:57] people that are in control, if there [104:59] really is something far above and beyond [105:01] human government that has some sort of [105:04] an influence on world events, that's [105:07] that's that's a real it's tough to vote [105:10] in a congressman that says they're going [105:12] to enact change when we're being [105:14] observed by extraterrestrial life that [105:16] can read your mind. [105:17] >> I don't know if that's true. I don't [105:19] know if I agree with you on that. I [105:20] think that it's all I think people will [105:22] be all right. I mean, we're having the [105:24] government say today, right? I mean, JD [105:27] Vance on your podcast just said it's [105:29] they're demons, right? That's that's [105:31] [laughter] [105:31] >> If JD Vance doesn't know, aren't we all [105:34] [ __ ] if he just thinks that they're [105:36] demons, like what he doesn't seem [105:40] >> he says he's too busy to like really dig [105:43] into the UFO stuff, which I kind of get [105:46] and understand, but also don't because [105:48] if that was [105:49] >> obviously I'm never going to be vice [105:50] president, but if I was, that would be [105:52] like the first thing I would look into [105:54] as soon as I got into my desk. I'd be [105:56] like, where they have everything? I'm [105:58] going there. I'm going there. I'm going [106:00] to say you have to show me and I'll keep [106:02] my mouth shut, but I need to know like [106:04] you need to show me. We need to know [106:06] like what are we I need to know what [106:08] position we're at in order to move [106:11] forward. I don't know. I need to know [106:12] where are we operating from. Are we [106:14] operating from a position where human [106:16] beings are the advanced dominant [106:18] intellect on Earth or not? [106:22] >> Because if it's or not, that changes [106:24] everything. [106:25] >> But you're rare. You're the rare person [106:27] who like most people in the United [106:30] States believe in God. Like there are [106:31] more than 80% of people who believe in [106:33] God. They think God runs it, right? God [106:36] is a non-human intelligence. [106:38] >> But that doesn't they they're not [106:40] mutually exclusive. Like God could exist [106:43] and also intelligent life from elsewhere [106:45] could also exist. [106:46] >> That's right. And that's why most people [106:47] won't be shocked or upset. I don't think [106:50] that there's going to be a level of um [106:52] anxiety that people predict. Honestly, I [106:54] don't. Well, hasn't the Vatican even [106:56] addressed this and saying that if alien [106:58] life exists that God could have created [107:00] life other places? [107:02] >> Of course. Yeah. [107:03] >> Which really does make sense. [107:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, they're not going to be [107:05] upset. And there are a lot of Catholics [107:07] in the United States. So, I mean, people [107:09] in the United States or even all over [107:10] the world, there are countries like in [107:12] Brazil where they're okay with, you [107:14] know, if they're if there are aliens up [107:16] there, it's not going to change. They're [107:18] probably watching us and nobody's going [107:20] to be upset about that. They're still [107:21] going to vote for their presidents and [107:23] their congress people and so forth. [107:25] >> Yeah. So, you're like the only one here [107:27] that I not the only one, but you're [107:29] representing a small minority of people [107:31] in my opinion. [107:32] >> How so? [107:33] >> Because you think that that it's going [107:35] to change everything. You think that it [107:37] might actually change your worldview, [107:39] but it's not going to change the 80% out [107:42] there. [107:43] >> It's not going to change their [107:44] worldview. [107:45] >> I think that's a guess. Mine's a guess [107:48] as well. It's a guess of how it's going [107:50] to affect the world. I I would assume it [107:53] affects it in a pretty spectacular way. [107:57] If we have undeniable proof that there [108:01] is some superior intelligence that's [108:04] interacting with us and perhaps even [108:06] controlling events and preventing [108:08] certain things from happening like when [108:10] they go over nuclear bases and stop [108:12] weapons functions. [108:14] >> This is a religious worldview. That's a [108:16] that's the religious worldview. you're [108:18] you're identifying right there. How is [108:19] that a religious worldview that there's [108:21] an intelligent life form from another [108:22] planet that comes from [108:24] >> not another planet but like you know [108:26] there's an intelligent interdimensional [108:27] >> right we don't know if it's from another [108:29] planet that's a guess so most [snorts] [108:31] religions are assuming that there are [108:33] other there are gods and goddesses or [108:35] there is god and there are angels and [108:38] demons and things like that there you [108:40] know non-human intelligences so they [108:42] already think this and this is already a [108:44] world view [108:45] >> well that's what gets weird when you get [108:46] into the really old scripts like The [108:49] Book of [108:49] >> Enoch. [108:50] >> That's right. [108:51] >> That you know, Anna Paulina Luna, she's [108:54] the one who turned me on that. And yeah, [108:56] I've listen to the audio book of the [108:58] Book of Enoch twice now. [109:00] >> And every time I listen to I'm like, [109:01] what the [ __ ] were they talking about? [109:04] >> Like what is what are the Watchers who [109:08] came down and and bred with the [109:10] daughters of man and created the [109:12] Nephilim? Like what is what is all this [109:15] stuff? [109:17] >> Yeah. that informs a lot of Christian [109:21] doctrines basically. [109:22] >> Well, not really. Not today. But because [109:25] it's not included in the cannon, but [109:27] what if it was, right? [109:29] >> It's included in the canon, but just not [109:31] in reference to the book of Enoch. I [109:33] mean, if you [109:34] >> Well, the book of Enoch's not in the [109:35] canon, but Enoch is referenced in the [109:36] Bible. [109:37] >> Absolutely. Yeah. [109:38] >> Which is kind of nuts that you don't get [109:40] the book of Enoch, [109:41] >> but you have the worldview of Enoch. A [109:43] lot of Christians still believe in that. [109:44] And it's I would say that I don't know [109:47] like [snorts] more than 50%. So even [109:50] though so yes. So [109:51] >> more than 50% believe [109:52] >> they believe in the worldview of of [109:54] Enoch that we're that there are watchers [109:57] and fallen angels and things like that [110:00] that you know this is the supernatural [110:02] worldview and it's alive and well. Paul [110:04] uh she believes in it, right? She [110:06] believes that there that Yeah. Anna [110:09] Pelina. Oh [110:10] >> yeah. So, uh, I've heard her say that [110:12] she thinks they're interdimensional [110:13] beings also. So, in a sense, the [110:15] paternal, [110:17] >> right? Um, imagine a world, imagine how [110:22] different religion would be if the book [110:24] of Enoch was regularly taught in sun [110:27] Sunday at church that they would tell [110:30] you that story along with Moses and [110:32] along with all the other stories that [110:34] they would tell you about the book of [110:35] Enoch. And everybody in the church would [110:37] be sitting there like, "What? What are [110:39] you talking about? Who are the watchers? [110:42] Like what are they? They came down and [110:46] and lay with the daughters of man. What? [110:49] >> Yeah. [110:51] >> Like this is this was a part of an [110:53] ancient story. And the real question is [110:55] when whenever I read these biblical [110:57] stories, I'm always trying to I know [111:01] that they're writing things down. First [111:03] of all, they're writing it in ancient [111:04] Hebrew and then it's transcribed and and [111:07] translated into Latin and to Greek and [111:09] all these other languages and a lot is [111:10] lost in that translation. A lot lot gets [111:14] interpreted very weird because of just [111:16] the just the way languages are formed. [111:18] Just the way they they structure [111:21] sentences the way like a lot of the [111:23] context of it is weird. Also in ancient [111:25] Hebrew numbers double letters double as [111:29] numbers. So [111:30] >> a lot of coded stuff, [111:31] >> right? Yeah. So there's numerical value [111:33] to the words which is really weird. [111:35] >> There are churches though that do teach [111:37] that there are some religious [111:38] traditions. I agree with you that this [111:41] tradition is not well taught to [111:44] Christians or Jewish people or you know [111:47] today. But that doesn't mean that the [111:51] Christians aren't going to go out and [111:52] learn for themselves. They do. They do [111:54] learn for themselves and they actually [111:55] have communities that know about this. [111:57] So lots do. [111:58] >> Well certainly the Ethiopians. [112:00] >> Yeah. Of course. Right. Which is weird [112:03] >> that the Ethiopian Bible has that in it. [112:06] They have the book of Enoch as a part of [112:07] the Ethiopian Bible. [112:09] >> Yeah. That Well, it's one it's one of [112:10] the first Bibles. It's one of the first. [112:12] So, Ethiopian Christianity is like one [112:15] of the oldest forms of continuous [112:17] Christianity. But there's no [112:18] continuously practice. [112:19] >> No real translation of it that's [112:20] available in English, [112:22] >> right? Isn't that the case with the [112:24] Ethiopian Bible? [112:25] >> Well, let's see. Yeah, I guess you're [112:26] right. I don't actually know about that [112:28] if I mean, you can look it up. I mean, [112:31] people can look up this stuff and there [112:32] are people who write about it. Like my [112:34] field, people write about it, [112:36] >> right? Your field. But I mean, the [112:38] average Christian is not really aware of [112:40] what's in the book of Enoch. [112:42] >> Yeah, you're right. You're right. So, [112:45] that's where like a basic studies [112:47] religion class like where you know, if [112:49] you take my class, I'll make you aware [112:50] of it. I'll make you aware of the [112:52] different forms of Christianity, right? [112:54] The ones before the Roman Catholicism [112:56] and you know, the earliest forms of [112:57] Christianity. I'll also make you aware [112:59] of the supernatural world view. [113:01] >> I feel like it's all there was something [113:03] that happened there. There's real events [113:07] and [113:08] I just don't know [113:11] if the stories are accurate. I don't [113:13] know if the the written version of these [113:15] stories accurately relays the real [113:18] events that took place and what they're [113:21] trying to say, especially when in [113:24] regards to the Watchers and the Nephilim [113:27] and all that stuff and the giants. [113:30] There's just so many weird parts of [113:32] those stories that we're just supposed [113:34] to just accept. [113:36] Like, what is that? That sounds to me [113:38] like genetic engineering is what it [113:40] sounds like. It sounds like a primitive [113:43] translation of or explanation of what [113:47] genetic engineering of human beings was. [113:49] That's what it sounds like. [113:51] >> You know, that belief was still around [113:53] um after Jesus was crucified in within [113:56] the early church because Paul writes [113:58] about it in his letters. [114:00] >> What does he write about? [114:01] >> Okay. So, you know the um the tradition [114:05] of women wearing veils in church. [114:07] >> No. [114:08] >> Yeah. So if you go to a mass today like [114:11] a Catholic mass some women will be [114:12] wearing veils and if you go to a [114:14] traditionalist mass mass they will be [114:16] wearing veils and um the reason that [114:19] Paul gave was because of the angels that [114:22] were attracted to them in church. So you [114:25] have to be careful women when you go to [114:26] church the angels might be there who [114:28] might be attracted to you. He doesn't [114:29] say that specifically but that's part of [114:32] the reason why. So the early Christian [114:34] church was that they were immersed in [114:37] that worldview. That worldview was is [114:40] still around. [114:41] >> So the women wore veils so that the [114:43] watchers wouldn't find them attractive. [114:45] >> Yeah. Yeah. [114:47] >> Whoa. [114:48] >> Yeah. And some women still wear veils. [114:50] >> That's crazy. [114:52] >> So yeah, a lot of that tradition is [114:54] still here. [114:55] >> So just a residual interpretation of [114:57] whatever the original story, the [114:58] original event was. [115:00] >> That's right. [115:02] Do you think humans were genetically [115:04] engineered? [115:06] >> I'm, [laughter] you know, I'm Catholic, [115:08] right? I'm Christian. Okay. So, [115:10] >> what do you think happened? [115:12] >> I I mean, of course, my views have [115:14] changed. So, before I got into the UFO [115:16] thing, I was a, you know, I went to [115:19] Catholic church. I went to daily mass [115:21] sometimes. I was Christian. I've been [115:23] Christians since I was 11. I was raised [115:25] by secular parents. They were not [115:27] >> How did you get involved in [115:28] Christianity? I was converted through on [115:31] Easter, by the way, on Good Friday by [115:33] watching and I didn't try to watch it [115:36] was on TV. My parents had put it on and [115:37] I was 11 and I was doing Easter eggs and [115:41] they were playing uh Franco Zepharelli's [115:43] Jesus of Nazareth and I started to watch [115:46] it. Now, I didn't know that he was [115:48] crucified at the end because I was just, [115:51] you know, a kid. I wasn't raised [115:53] religious at all. And my dad came from a [115:56] Catholic family. My mother came from a [115:58] Jewish family or she's Jewish and so [116:00] they didn't practice religion. Total [116:02] rationalists. Um so I was watching it [116:05] and it was when the the scene where [116:08] where the woman the adulterous woman is [116:10] just about to be stoned to death by [116:12] these guys, right? This big group and [116:15] they're just about to throw the stones [116:16] and Jesus goes down and starts drawing [116:18] something. And I was like what the what [116:19] is he going to do? And um he basically [116:22] says, "Those of you with uh without sin, [116:25] throw the first stone." And I was like, [116:28] "Oh, that was brilliant, right?" And so [116:31] then I was hooked. I was hooked. And at [116:33] the end, he was crucified. I was [116:35] devastated. And so I told my mother, I [116:37] said, "Mom, you have to buy me a Bible. [116:39] Like, you have to." So the next day we [116:41] went out. She doesn't know what to look [116:43] for. So, we go to this store and the the [116:45] the person helped us out and they gave [116:47] us a a King James version of the Bible, [116:50] red letter. I said, "I want everything [116:52] that Jesus said. I want to know all that [116:54] he said." And I was hooked on it. And [116:56] so, I read this thing. I read the whole [116:58] thing. And at that point, I recognized I [117:01] had to grow up and I had to read the [117:03] original sources because that was hard [117:05] to read. It didn't make sense. And I was [117:07] like, "This doesn't make sense to me. [117:09] What he said was beautiful." And I was [117:10] hooked. Um, I became a Christian. [117:12] >> What didn't make sense to you? What part [117:14] of [117:14] >> the whole Bible? The whole Bible when [117:15] you start to read it from beginning to [117:17] end. You know, there are all those [117:18] things that you just don't understand. [117:20] There are two creation stories in [117:22] Genesis and you're like, well, why are [117:24] there two? And you know, there are all [117:26] those names and lineages and you're [117:27] like, what? You get to the book of [117:29] Leviticus and it has all these rules and [117:30] regulations and you're like, you just [117:32] don't understand it. And I knew that at [117:35] that point I needed to learn the [117:37] original languages and how they were put [117:38] together. That's why I decided to become [117:40] a professor of religion. [117:42] >> And so, um, I became a Christian and I [117:47] was a born again Christian. And then [117:49] when it came time to go to high school, [117:51] I asked my father, he had connections to [117:53] Catholics, if I could go to Catholic [117:55] high school. Luckily, I went to a [117:58] Sisters of Mercy high school where they [118:00] were beautiful people and I learned [118:02] Catholicism in action, like actually [118:04] helping people and stuff. And um, and I [118:07] became Catholic. And so I've been [118:09] Catholic my whole life after that. Uh [118:11] >> did your parents ever join you? [118:14] >> My dad My dad did. Yeah. He's passed [118:16] away. He died pretty young, but yeah, he [118:18] did. He he was brought back to religion [118:21] because of me. [118:22] >> Wow. [118:23] >> Yeah. Yeah. It was really pretty [118:25] intense. [118:26] But um my you know that's just how it [118:30] was. Uh but anyway, so that I became [118:32] very interested obviously you know I [118:35] thought this is super important. we have [118:37] to know about the how this happened just [118:39] like you said how do I know this really [118:41] happened and um and that's when I became [118:45] aware of the old like the Ethiopian [118:47] church the earliest texts for Christians [118:51] and the and I don't think Christian [118:54] churches do a good job of relaying this [118:57] information to Christians frankly I [119:00] think that they don't do the best job [119:02] and that they could do it better and so [119:04] I now I teach New Testament at my [119:06] university and you know I I do my best [119:09] to kind of convey what the what these [119:11] people were experiencing and and the [119:14] kinds of people still experience those [119:16] things today. So yeah, so that's how I [119:19] became uh that's how I became Christian. [119:22] >> Interesting. So [119:25] when I said do you think that human [119:27] beings were genetically engineered? [119:30] Your response was I'm Catholic. [119:34] >> Yeah. Unless you're talking about God [119:35] doing that genetic engineering. [119:37] >> So you you think that the Bible is a [119:39] absolute literal translation of real [119:42] events? So what do you think it is? [119:44] >> It's a Okay. So Catholics don't believe [119:46] in biblical literalism, which is that it [119:49] you can't because there are so many [119:51] parts of the Bible that contradict. So [119:53] you'd be, you know, that would be a [119:54] contradiction. Uh but they believe that [119:56] it is the inspired word of God written [119:59] by people, written by men. And so [120:01] there's fallibility in terms of the not [120:04] in morals and the conveying of the [120:07] spirit of Christianity, [120:08] >> right? [120:09] >> Uh but you know, so so yeah, that's what [120:12] they believe. So in terms of the genetic [120:15] engineering, do I I believe that Enoch, [120:18] the book of Enoch, it conveys the spirit [120:21] of truth. Absolutely. Do I believe that [120:23] there are um that's why I believe that [120:26] if the according listen when I started [120:29] to study UFOs I was not expecting at all [120:32] what I found and what I found reinforced [120:35] my own religion my own Catholic [120:38] upbringing or selfchosen upbringing [120:42] >> how did it reinforce it [120:44] >> okay so that's that's where I was at [120:46] actually so I was pretty secular even as [120:49] a Christian especially after I went to [120:51] graduate school. So I went to graduate [120:53] school, studied all of this stuff and [120:55] then became a professor and I believed [120:59] in the spirit of the book. I believed in [121:01] the spirit of Christianity. I believed [121:03] it's true. Therefore, I taught it to my [121:05] kids. I went to church. I'd sometimes go [121:07] to mass. You know, they have daily mass [121:09] and and Catholicism. I homeschooled my [121:12] kids in a Catholic homeschool group uh [121:14] for the most part until they needed some [121:16] outsourcing in math. And so um but it [121:20] wasn't until I became I studied UFOs [121:24] that I recognized that the book of Enoch [121:26] is alive and well today. That's what I [121:29] recognized in eupfology and I [121:32] encountered stuff that I thought looked [121:34] pretty dodgy and I was like this looks [121:37] like the pre-ternatural and I it so [121:40] that's what I'm saying. It supercharged [121:43] my Christianity to the point where I [121:46] went back and I reread all of that stuff [121:48] again. And I recognized that whatever [121:52] they're dealing with now when people are [121:54] having these experiences so forth, um [121:56] not all of them, but a good many of them [121:59] are uh you can, you know, look to me [122:03] similar in in kind. I don't say they're [122:06] identical, but they look similar. And [122:08] therefore, um, if that's the case, then, [122:11] you know, I I need to be a different [122:13] type of believer. I need to be a much [122:14] more, uh, believing believer, if that [122:17] makes [122:18] >> believe. Yeah. And if I can't be secular [122:20] about my Christianity, I actually have [122:22] to practice it, live it, be prepared for [122:25] what comes next. Kind of that lifestyle. [122:28] >> That's what that's the kind of [122:29] lifestyle. Is it in any way frustrating [122:32] that you have studied so much of these [122:35] encounters and these experiences but you [122:38] don't have a personal encounter or a [122:40] personal experience with these things? [122:43] >> Uh well that's an assumption that you [122:45] have [122:45] >> that you don't have one. [122:47] >> Yeah. [122:47] >> Do you have one? [122:48] >> Well maybe I'm I don't feel comfortable [122:51] talking about it but yeah I have some [122:52] experiences. But [122:54] >> why don't you feel comfortable talking [122:55] about it? You re This is part of what [122:57] you do for a living. you you talk about [123:00] other people's encounters. Why would you [123:02] not feel comfortable talking about your [123:04] encounters? [123:05] >> Um well because that is um I mean I'm [123:10] not sure what to think of them. That's [123:12] why I listen this is not what motivated [123:15] me to study euphology or those kinds of [123:17] things. When I think about the [123:19] >> Did you have these encounters before you [123:21] studied eupfology? [123:22] >> When I look back I say yes I had those [123:25] encounters. Yeah. [123:26] >> When did you first have an encounter? I [123:28] didn't interpret them as UFOs though. [123:31] Well, my I did have a family member who [123:33] had an experience with what looks like a [123:36] UFO and it was documented. I actually [123:39] found a documentation of it from the [123:40] time in a newspaper. Other people had [123:42] seen it too. So, I live in a place that [123:45] is called that has UFOs. So, I grew up [123:48] uh near Folsam Lake and that's there are [123:51] lots of UFOs around that area. And so he [123:54] had a this is of course a long time ago [123:57] when we he was not interested in UFOs. I [124:00] wasn't and he was he was young riding [124:02] his bike up a hill and he saw it and um [124:07] and it kind of it was a classic UFO [124:09] thing. Turned around, looked at him and [124:12] he was like, "What?" And sped down the [124:14] hill screaming. Uh came into the [124:18] driveway. My parents went out there. [124:19] Now, my parents complete rationalists [124:22] and they see it too and they uh they saw [124:26] it and it just kind of like hovered and [124:29] it was like a giant orb, orange orb and [124:32] it hovered for a while and then it just [124:34] went up in the sky and disappeared. And [124:36] so they had this. This is before I went [124:39] to college. Every it was a very long [124:41] time ago. And um and then later when I [124:44] started to study this uh I I had family [124:46] members tell me, "Yeah, remember that." [124:48] And I was like, "Yeah, yeah, tell me [124:50] about that." And so they reiterated that [124:52] this is what happened. And they wanted [124:54] to kind of get it on the record. And [124:56] then um one of them found the [124:58] documentation of a newspaper at the time [125:00] and sent it to me. So I have that data. [125:02] So there's been that. But that's kind of [125:04] a normal thing. Like people have those [125:06] experiences and you know they nothing [125:10] changes. [125:10] >> But you said that you had experiences [125:11] that you're not necessarily comfortable [125:14] talking about. [125:14] >> I wouldn't I didn't have a UFO [125:16] experience. Like I haven't had like UFO [125:18] experiences like that. [125:20] >> What have you had? [125:21] >> Well, I have the very normal experience [125:24] of a person who is a believing [125:26] Christian. And if you have if you're [125:29] that kind of person, you will have [125:31] experiences where you feel like this is, [125:34] you know, there's there's more to life [125:36] than kind of what you're taught at [125:38] school. So that's the kind of experience [125:41] I'm talking about. Uh people in the book [125:43] of Acts, [125:43] >> can you elaborate like what do you mean [125:45] by that? Yeah. [125:46] >> What what experiences have you had that [125:47] made you feel that way? [125:49] >> Oh, I've had lifelong experiences like [125:51] that that [125:51] >> like what? Well, just that certain [125:53] things happen at the right time at the [125:56] right moment. And you know, I mean, lots [125:58] of people have these experiences. If you [125:59] read about uh Mel Gibson doing his [126:03] movies, you know, the um Passion of the [126:05] Christ, he talks about very powerful [126:08] things that happened on the set. So [126:10] things like this, things that you you [126:13] know that they're not probable like Jim [126:16] Cavisel being hit by lightning when he's [126:19] on the cross and you know things like [126:21] that that happen. Uh that's you're like [126:24] wow. Okay. I mean you could say that's a [126:26] coincidence and you know you can look at [126:27] it from that perspective but uh [126:32] it's all outlined in the book of Acts in [126:34] the New Testament. If you read that [126:36] book, it talks about these very these [126:39] very uh significant experiences to the [126:42] people. But the reason I don't talk [126:44] about them is because if you talk about [126:46] them to people who don't have those [126:48] experiences, they will just say, "Well, [126:50] that's just a coincidence or that's [126:51] that." So you're like, "Yeah, that's one [126:53] way to look at it." So you can't convey [126:55] it's like a it's a question of just [126:58] qualia. It's a it's a question of your [127:01] own perception of it, [127:03] >> right? But as an educator, don't you [127:05] think perhaps if you have had these [127:07] experiences, you have a responsibility [127:09] to try to relay that information to [127:11] people? [127:11] >> No. No. No. Because I'm I teach [127:14] religious studies. So in religious [127:16] studies, you'll see this this in my [127:17] book, too. Uh you're teaching about the [127:21] actual book, the the cont social [127:24] context, the historical context. You're [127:27] not actually advocating for a belief [127:30] system, [127:31] >> but but relaying your personal [127:33] experiences is not advocating for a [127:35] belief system. [127:36] >> It would be. It would be. [127:38] >> Um [127:40] because [127:41] >> isn't it a belief? Isn't an experience [127:44] open to interpretation? [127:46] >> An experience. [127:47] >> So, how would you be relaying your [127:48] belief systems by having an experience [127:51] that you detail in an honest way that's [127:53] open to interpretation? I would do that [127:55] if I was in a a a situation where that [127:59] kind of experience was helpful to [128:01] people. I and I have done that before. [128:04] Like I've been on podcasts where um you [128:07] know where they would say they're [128:08] Christians and you know we're talking [128:10] about Christian life and so forth and I [128:12] would explain my experiences and we [128:15] would talk about that and people would [128:17] you know they would talk about their [128:18] experiences. But when you're at a [128:19] secular university that's not what you [128:22] do. You don't do that. When I'm writing [128:24] as a scholar of religion, you're not [128:27] that's not what it's about. It's not [128:29] about whether or not these experiences [128:31] are real. What it is about is about [128:36] how this is shaping culture. Now, [128:39] >> what I meant when I asked you that [128:41] question, I'm talking about UFO [128:43] abductions, encountering beings and [128:46] entities. [128:47] >> That's what I'm talking about. I'm like, [128:49] have you had one of those experiences? I [128:51] have not. Don't you wish he did? [128:54] >> Um, no. It doesn't look like I wish that [128:58] I did. When I look at what happens to [128:59] people who have had abductions and these [129:01] experiences, um, it looks traumatic, [129:05] Joe. I don't No, I don't want that. [129:08] >> Interesting. [129:09] >> Like, life is already traumatic enough, [129:11] you know? [sighs] [129:12] >> Right. I get what you're saying. Um, [129:15] when you hear about people that uh [129:18] supposedly [129:20] they they have this uh ritualistic [129:22] practice where they manifest orbs and [129:26] they they meditate and [129:28] >> psionics. [129:29] >> What do you think that is? [129:31] >> Yeah. So, I do believe that they're [129:33] doing something. [129:34] >> A friend of mine did it recently and [129:36] she's she's very rational. Okay. [129:38] >> She's a very rational person, very [129:41] intelligent person and she wants me to [129:43] do it with her. She's like, "You got to [129:44] come and try this out." And like, we [129:46] were trying to set a date where she's [129:48] like, "I'll explain to you how I did it [129:50] and how you do it." I was like, "All [129:52] right, I believe you." Like, I've been [129:55] friends with her for decades. She's [129:56] super rational, very normal person, very [130:00] intelligent, not crazy in any way, [130:02] shape, or form. And she's like, "This [130:04] gonna sound [ __ ] nuts, but if you do [130:07] this, and if you do it and you give it [130:09] enough time, they will show up." [130:11] >> Is this with like Steven Greer? or is it [130:13] like C5 with him? [130:15] >> She doesn't do She's She's not in any [130:17] way associated with that guy, but [130:19] >> she was taught how to do it by someone [130:22] else. [130:22] >> And she said she went on some [ __ ] [130:25] thing where they they all did it [130:26] together. Yeah. [130:27] >> And and then she's done it privately [130:29] alone and she said you could do it. [130:32] >> Yeah. Yeah. Yeah. [130:34] >> She's gonna she said it's going to sound [130:35] [ __ ] insane, but it's real. [130:40] >> Okay. [130:41] >> What do you think about that? [130:43] All right. Well, I believe that it [130:44] happens. [130:45] >> What do you think is happening? [130:48] >> I'm not sure what's happening, but I [130:51] don't think I would do it. [130:52] >> Why not? [130:53] >> Because I I believe in cognitive [130:55] sovereignty. Like I believe that we [130:57] should be sovereign like our, you know, [130:59] not have something [131:01] >> interacting with us. [131:02] >> Yeah. Beyond mentally and spiritually [131:04] >> and you know, so yeah, that's why I [131:07] wouldn't do it. [131:08] >> But is does it take away your [131:09] sovereignty to communicate with [131:10] something else? [131:12] Yeah, a lot of times it does. So, one of [131:15] the things that I noticed when I started [131:17] to talk to people, and I don't want to [131:18] like, you know, tell you not to do it, [131:20] but [131:21] >> I'm going to do it, [131:21] >> but Okay. [131:22] >> You're not going to talk me out of it. [131:23] >> All right. [laughter] All right. I [131:25] wouldn't do it. [131:27] Um, [clears throat] [131:28] yeah. So, one of the things I noticed [131:30] was a lot of people in the beginning [131:32] when I was doing this research would and [131:33] still today would say, "Diana, you can [131:36] contact these beings, okay? And this is [131:38] how you do it and you have to give them [131:40] permission." And I was like, "What are [131:42] you talking about? That [131:42] >> sounds like vampire shit." [131:43] >> Yeah, that's right. I'm like, "I'm not [131:45] going to let the vampire in." [131:46] >> Yeah. Yeah. You have to give them [131:48] permission. Yeah. And And that's [131:50] >> Isn't that weird? I wonder if that's [131:51] where that comes from. [131:52] >> All right. Well, that's what I'm telling [131:54] you that you should [131:55] >> The vampire lore is that you have to [131:57] invite them in. [131:57] >> That's right. But that's the demonic [131:59] lore, too. [132:00] >> Really? You have to invite them in. [132:02] >> So, I mean, if you're going to do that, [132:04] that's you're inviting them in. [132:05] >> Oh, boy. [132:06] >> So, [132:07] >> now I'm secondg guessing it. [laughter] [132:09] I'm just saying uh there's [132:10] >> Jamie, would you do it? [132:12] >> I mean, I almost tried. I think I think [132:15] I try [laughter] daily, but like just in [132:17] my own head. [132:20] >> What do you think about people that have [132:22] psychedelic experiences where they [132:23] encounter entities? [132:25] >> I think they're encountering entities. [132:27] Yeah. So, I think psychedelics is the [132:30] quick way to open up that spiritual part [132:33] of your brain, but it's a dangerous way. [132:35] Well, look, okay, I'm not I don't want [132:38] to go down this. I've I've been on I've [132:40] gone down this road before, but um [132:42] >> what's wrong with the road? Why don't [132:44] you like to go down that road? [132:47] >> Oh, because I guess um [132:51] there's there's part of your brain [132:53] actually we talked about this last time [132:55] I was on here. We talked about the [132:56] spiritual sense, remember? We talked [132:58] about the pineal gland and stuff like [132:59] that. Okay. So, I've learned a lot about [133:01] it since then. All right. And what I I [133:05] it's a real thing. Okay. And the again [133:07] the Christian churches don't do a good [133:09] job of conveying that this is really [133:11] important for Christians to know about [133:13] and not just Christians but religious [133:15] people all over the world. This is what [133:17] they're doing when they're doing those [133:18] protocols of religion. They're trying to [133:20] cultivate the spiritual sense. Why? [133:23] Because the human being is oriented [133:25] toward the sacred. Like we're we're a [133:28] very specific type of thing. We're [133:30] oriented toward the sacred. The [133:32] spiritual sense is what helps us connect [133:34] to it. We could, you know, utilize the [133:36] spiritual sense through certain things, [133:37] fasting, um, living a certain way, you [133:40] know, and that sort of thing. It's [133:42] really important, by the way. And, um, [133:47] digital culture like is messing with [133:49] that, by the way, the spiritual sense. [133:51] Okay. So, psychedelics are one way to [133:55] like hijack into it and, you know, open [133:58] up that world. Uh, so it's a quick way, [134:01] but it's it's I wouldn't call it the [134:04] ideal way. Although in some religions [134:07] like the Church of Native Americans, [134:09] that's their way of doing it. That's [134:12] their way of doing it. All right. And [134:13] they have rituals to do it with, you [134:15] know, it's sacred. Um, [134:18] yeah. So to do it casually and without, [134:22] you know, without attention is probably [134:27] might be dangerous. I've done I've [134:30] utilized mushrooms when I was young. Um [134:33] >> I like that word [134:34] >> utilized. [134:35] >> Yeah. [laughter] [134:37] >> You know, when I did it though, like I [134:38] was really young. [134:39] >> Very official. [134:40] >> I was I was very young and uh I prayed [134:43] before I did it, my friend and I, and we [134:45] had a really, you know, good experience [134:47] and so forth. But I think I was just [134:49] lucky. Okay. I think I was lucky. [134:51] >> Why do you think that? [134:52] >> Because I've had friends who've had [134:54] really terrible experiences, [134:56] >> right? And so I think that it's best [134:58] just not to unless you're like born into [135:01] that culture that does that and that's [135:03] part of your religion. [135:04] >> One of the things that seems to be the [135:06] case in a lot of the people that have [135:08] had um these bad experiences is that [135:12] they try to fight it and that they they [135:14] try to battle with the experience. They [135:17] try to take control of it. The ego gets [135:19] in the way. they they want to regain [135:22] some sort of a control over their [135:24] consciousness and and they fight with it [135:26] and they have bad trips. You know, [135:29] there's moments when you do psychedelics [135:31] where you realize I just got to let it [135:32] go. I just got to realize that I'm not [135:34] in control of this at all and just let [135:36] it go. And some people can let it go and [135:39] some people can't. I've seen people [135:42] struggle with it. I've seen people that [135:44] can't let it go and they fight with it [135:45] and they have really bad trips and it's [135:47] very scary to watch. Mhm. [135:48] >> But I think that's the root of it. I [135:51] think the root of it is you're battling [135:53] with something that you can't beat. [135:56] >> You just have to just let go. [135:58] >> Mhm. [135:58] >> And just take it in. Here we go. [136:03] Just go on the ride. And some people [136:05] can't go on the ride like no. And [136:06] they're grabbing the walls and they're [136:07] grabbing vines and they're trying to [136:09] stop their progression. They don't want [136:11] to do it. Like it's too scary for them. [136:13] They don't want to let go. They don't [136:14] want to they don't want to erode their [136:16] belief system. They don't want to expand [136:19] their view of the world. They're just [136:20] too, it's too scary. They have a problem [136:24] with fear. They have a problem with the [136:26] unknown. They have a problem with having [136:28] this very isolated view of reality and [136:31] having that shattered in front of them. [136:33] And they they don't feel comfortable [136:36] with that. And they they try to they try [136:39] to resist it. [136:43] I think that's what's going on. [136:46] You have to understand like what it is [136:48] and you have to understand that you're [136:49] not in control and you got to let it go. [136:53] You got to go for the ride. [136:56] But that's also me saying that and my [136:58] psyche is very different than another [137:00] person's psyche and theirs is different [137:01] than yours. And everyone everyone's [137:03] different. Everyone has different [137:04] >> experiences, different psychological [137:06] vulnerabilities, different you know. [137:09] >> Right. Yeah. Yeah. [137:11] >> Yeah. [137:12] Um, we were talking before the podcast [137:15] about the Shroud of Turan. [137:16] >> Oh, yeah. [137:17] >> Yeah. And you were [137:18] >> And we, by the way, we brought that up [137:19] last time I was here and that happened [137:21] by accident, remember? [137:23] >> Yes. [137:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. So, a lot of people have [137:26] been talking about that since we talked [137:28] about it. [137:28] >> Yeah. Um, you were saying something [137:30] though that the piece that they used for [137:35] um, carbon dating that this was a piece [137:38] that had been repaired, but I saw [137:40] there's a lot of dispute about that [137:41] online [137:43] >> and it could be. Yeah. [137:44] >> Yeah. A lot of people say that that is [137:46] just some sort of apologetic excuse for [137:49] why the numbers don't match up [137:51] correctly. But then I've also seen [137:54] things that say that the pollen that is [137:56] on that the fibers matches up with the [138:01] the exact kind of plants that existed in [138:04] Jerusalem 2,000 years ago and that that [138:07] all aligns and that further testing [138:10] needs to be done to determine the actual [138:12] date of it. That aside, there's still no [138:17] explanation for why that image exists [138:22] and how it was created. [138:23] >> Yeah. [138:24] >> And um I've never seen anyone explain in [138:27] any way that makes any sense how that [138:29] could have been forged by someone how it [138:32] could been a forgery from someone that [138:35] long ago that they could figure it out. [138:37] Also, they could make it a a a reverse [138:41] negative image. So the only way you see [138:43] it is through when you look at it in a [138:45] negative. [138:45] >> Yeah, I know. It's pretty crazy. Yeah, [138:47] >> that doesn't make a lot of sense to me. [138:49] >> Yeah. Yeah. [138:50] >> Whatever it is is it's really weird. [138:53] >> It is totally weird. And there are [138:56] people who there is a guy who's a a [138:59] doctor of like blood, a hematologist, [139:02] and he's he seems to have no he he's not [139:05] religious um or he's not like you know [139:08] uh out there advocating for religion. [139:10] and he just happened to study it. Um he [139:13] studied the blood and again he was like [139:17] and the the uh injuries, you know, [139:20] because he can study the injuries and [139:22] identify and they match up. And I mean, [139:26] I'm not an expert on the shroud, but [139:28] believe me, every expert that's out [139:30] there since I was on your podcast a few [139:32] years ago have they've reached out to me [139:34] and they're like, "Tell Joe to get me on [139:36] and so forth." And um [139:38] >> do you know someone that's a real good [139:40] credible expert? [139:41] >> Yeah, I know someone. Well, that man I [139:43] think has a good video out there. Check [139:45] him out. Um I don't know his name, but [139:47] he's I mean you should be able to find [139:49] if you uh do a search. Yeah, [139:51] >> this would be him. [139:52] >> Uh [139:53] >> new study claims blood stains in the [139:55] shroud of turn consistent with torture [139:57] of Christ. [139:58] >> That's not He doesn't have an Italian [140:00] name, the one I know, but I mean that [140:02] could be too. I mean he could be out [140:04] there doing that. um the guy that that [140:08] we found. I can send you the link, but [140:10] he's he's an American guy and he's just, [140:13] you know, he doesn't have a fancy video [140:15] or anything like that. It's [140:16] [clears throat] just But there's another [140:18] guy who's Catholic called um his name is [140:20] Father Dalton and he's this is his [140:22] expertise. He knows about this now. He's [140:24] theological [140:25] >> but he actually does have studies and so [140:27] forth. [140:28] >> And what is what is unique about his [140:31] perspective? So his perspective is that [140:34] first you have to understand the [140:35] Catholic Church is very careful about [140:38] what they put their you know what they [140:41] say is true and not true. It takes them [140:42] forever to say something is a miracle. [140:45] And often when they identify something [140:47] as being miraculous they have a huge uh [140:51] team of people often [snorts] who are [140:54] the best at what they do. They and they [140:56] might not be Catholic. Okay? They could [140:58] be atheist and so forth. So this was [141:01] studied at Duke University, the Shroud [141:02] of Trin in the 1980s and I happened to [141:05] know a priest who was a graduate student [141:07] there in PhD program and he witnessed [141:10] the whole study. Um so father Dalton [141:14] would be a person who is Catholic [141:17] obviously he is a priest. However, he is [141:20] not going to say, you know, he's going [141:22] to give you the facts about each of the [141:24] studies and he's going to talk [141:26] specifically about uh what we don't know [141:29] what we don't know about it. What you [141:30] know, might be as a Catholic, you have [141:33] to say this is not we don't know about [141:34] that. Like, yeah, you're right. It could [141:36] be this or that. Same thing with the [141:38] Guadalupe tilma, right? So, you know, a [141:41] lot of people say it was created by God [141:43] and you know, put on this, you know, [141:44] about that, right? So the the Guadalupe [141:48] image of the Virgin of Guadalupe in [141:50] Mexico City that was miraculous said to [141:52] be miraculously put well there are some [141:55] you know things that have been added [141:57] later. So I think the shroud is like [141:59] that also. Um but there and there's been [142:03] a lot of studies by [142:04] >> what's so interesting about this [142:06] Guadalupe thing. [142:07] >> So this is a um this is a tilma which is [142:11] a a cloak. It's from this is from the [142:14] 1500s. So this is the an image that [142:20] allegedly according to devotional [142:22] Catholicism this image was imparted onto [142:26] this cloak uh and the cloak was was uh [142:29] worn by a guy by the way I think I'm not [142:32] sure but uh you know Mel Gibson's icon [142:36] like he I think that might be the part [142:38] of this. I'm not entirely sure. But so [142:41] here you have something that is [142:47] unexplainable. Uh part of it is [142:49] explainable because after the image was [142:51] put on, people had painted over it like [142:54] I don't know a hundred years later and [142:56] subsequently you know just to upkeep it. [142:59] The I think the angel was added a couple [143:01] things were added later. Uh but it's [143:04] it's it's not as anomalous as the shroud [143:08] of term explained as well. Okay. What is [143:11] unexplainable about this painting? [143:13] >> Okay. So this appears to be a painting [143:16] but underneath there's an image and the [143:18] image is uh is the Virgin Mary herself [143:23] without her cloak without the angel and [143:26] without the sun around her. And this [143:29] image is allegedly had been put on this [143:34] guy's cloak um Juan Diego's cloak in the [143:38] 1500s. So he was he had a she wanted a [143:43] basilica which by the way she's in right [143:45] now and that's what she asked for. The [143:49] bishop at the time said I don't believe [143:51] you Juan Diego. Uh you have to show me [143:54] proof. So he went back to the place [143:58] where he had seen her and she said, "Go [144:01] up and get a bunch of flowers and put [144:03] them in this cloak of yours and then [144:05] bring them to the bishop. You know, [144:07] they're out of season. They don't grow [144:08] in Mexico." So he did. He went he got [144:12] the flowers. He went back to the bishop [144:15] in Mexico City and he gave them to him. [144:18] And when they opened it up, there was an [144:20] image of the Virgin Mary on the cloak. [144:22] And that's where that's this is what [144:24] that's supposed to be. [144:27] >> I still don't understand why that's [144:28] unique. It's just a a painting. [144:30] >> No, no one painted. It just showed up. [144:32] It was just there. [144:33] >> Okay. Well, what's it made out of? Like [144:35] what is what is the ink? What is what is [144:38] the dye? [144:38] >> Yeah. So, okay. So, all right. So, this [144:40] is where it it gets complicated. Um, so [144:43] the original cloak is agave material. [144:47] It's made out of like um, you know, [144:49] agave. [144:50] >> Agave [clears throat] plant. [144:51] >> Yeah. And the original image appears to [144:54] be the agave plant fibers. Somehow the [144:59] image was from the fibers. It's not [145:01] paint. There's no drawing. [145:03] >> These colors. [145:05] >> Okay. So the colors of the cloak around [145:08] her that's later in a later edition. [145:13] >> Okay. How do we know that? [145:16] >> Uh art historians have looked at it. [145:18] like people who do they use infrared [145:21] photography and they're able to identify [145:24] uh the layers of it [145:25] >> so that the image existed originally and [145:27] then people painted over the image. [145:29] >> Well, they painted around it. They kind [145:31] of embellished it. [145:32] >> So, where can we see the original? [145:35] >> I'm looking I mean it's hard to get that [145:37] picture because time [145:38] >> that to me is not as interesting is the [145:41] shot of Turin. [145:42] >> Yeah. Yeah. I agree. They're both really [145:44] >> also it's painted over already. It's [145:46] like it's already been sort of [145:47] bastardized. Yeah, [145:50] >> that's the shroud of Tur is just weird [145:52] because it's not ink. [145:53] >> Yeah. [145:54] >> It's not dye. It It seems to be some [145:57] sort of like like it's burned in somehow [146:00] or another. [146:01] >> Yeah. [146:01] >> Right. [146:02] >> Yeah. So, if you got someone on here to [146:04] talk about it, I would either get Father [146:06] Dalton or I would get that doctor. [146:08] >> I would want someone to dismiss it as [146:10] well. I would want two people to talk [146:12] about. [146:12] >> Yeah. Yeah. I think that would be a [146:14] great I'd love to see it [146:15] >> because uh what you're saying about the [146:18] parts of the fabric that had been [146:20] repaired and that's what they had did [146:21] the radiocarbon dating on. I've heard [146:23] that disputed online. [146:25] >> Okay. [146:26] >> Yeah. But that would be a thing that you [146:28] would say if you wanted to really [146:31] believe that it was more than 2,000 [146:32] years old. You would say, "Oh, no, no, [146:35] no. They got the wrong piece." [146:37] >> Yeah. [146:38] >> And also, why was it repaired? Like, why [146:40] would someone repair it? Well, because [146:42] it's it's a it's a devotional cloth for [146:44] the Catholic Church. So, they're going [146:46] to keep it, you know, [146:48] >> by adding more cloth to it. [146:50] >> Yeah. Because it'll, you know, [146:51] disintegrate or whatnot. I mean, it's [146:53] been making the rounds for a long time, [146:55] >> right? [146:58] >> Yeah. [147:00] Uh I don't know. [147:01] >> Yeah. It says it was found in 1350 and [147:04] they don't know how it got to where it [147:05] was. [147:06] >> And don't don't they Yeah, that's right. [147:08] And don't don't they say that that [147:10] that's the when they do the radiocarbon [147:13] dating it goes back to around that area. [147:16] I think it goes to like the 1200s. [147:20] That's what they think it came from. [147:22] That's where it originated. [147:23] >> Yeah. So even if it did, it's still [147:26] anomalous. It's still weird. [147:27] >> Yeah, it's definitely weird. It's weird [147:29] in the sense that it wasn't painted. [147:31] It's not dye. That it seems to have been [147:34] created by energy. [147:37] What is the uh conventional description [147:40] for how it was made? Let's see that. [147:43] Let's see what it says. [147:45] What's the conventional description? [148:01] >> Let's see how is it made. Rectangular [148:05] linen cross 4.4 meters long, 1.1 meters [148:08] wide, bearing the faint [148:11] front and back image of a bearded [148:13] crucified man. Conventional description [148:16] how it was made as a physical object. [148:18] Material handwoven woven linen made from [148:21] flax fibers weave thread side strip. [148:25] Okay, but what about the image? Okay, a [148:27] faint sepia. [148:29] >> Is that how you say that word? Sepia. [148:31] >> Sepia. Straw yellow image shows a man [148:33] with wounds consistent with crucifi [148:35] crucification crucifixion rather um side [148:40] wound wounds at the wrist and feet [148:42] puncture marks around the scalp. [148:43] Conventional skeptical mainstream [148:45] explanation for how the image was [148:47] produced falls into a few camps. [148:49] Medieval painting pigmentation or [148:51] pigment application. [148:54] Uhuh. Reported finding red ochre and [148:57] vermilion pigments in a gelatin gelatin [149:01] collagen tempera binder concluding it [149:04] was painted in the 14th century. This [149:07] remains the dominant skeptical [149:08] explanation. Rubbing or uh boss relief [149:13] transfer technique. Researchers like [149:15] Joel Nickel have reproduced shroudlike [149:18] images by rubbing dry pigment iron oxide [149:20] over a cloth laid on the boss relief [149:22] sculpture [149:24] producing the same negative image [149:26] surface only characteristic acid scorch [149:30] or chemical staining technique [149:32] dating 1988 radiocarbon test performed [149:36] independently by labs at Oxford Arizona [149:39] and Zurich dated the flax to 1260 to [149:42] 1390 CE with a 95% confidence squarely [149:47] in the medieval period. Consistent with [149:48] its documented appearance in Liry around [149:52] 1355. Under the conventional view, this [149:54] dating settles the question, it's a [149:57] medieval artifact artifact likely [149:59] produced as a devotational [150:03] or uh pilgrimage object during the [150:05] period when relic veneration was a [150:08] booming industry. [150:13] Okay. So, what they're saying is it's [150:15] made with pigment, but I thought it [150:17] wasn't made with pigment. [150:20] >> Yeah. And also that there are blood [150:22] stains on it. [150:23] >> Actual blood. [150:24] >> Well, that's what it's supposed to be, [150:27] [laughter] [150:28] >> right? But is any that's what it's [150:30] supposed to be. But has anybody ever [150:31] done a study a [150:34] any kind of tests on that? The blood [150:37] stains are real human blood applied [150:39] before the image was formed. This is [150:40] what propos [150:43] all the above, arguing the C4 sample [150:45] came from an evil repair patch. That no [150:48] reproduction fully matches the images [150:50] properties uh superficially of the 200 [150:54] nanometer 3D encoded distance [150:57] information, no brush strokes, and that [150:59] the blood stains are real human blood [151:01] applied before the image formed. But the [151:04] mainstream conventional description [151:05] remains 14th century linen cloth with [151:08] hand produced image made in France as a [151:10] religious artifact. [151:16] >> Yeah. Yeah. [151:17] >> The thing is people want to believe that [151:19] it's the shroud that Jesus was buried [151:21] in. Right. [151:22] >> Well, people do want to believe it, but [151:24] I don't I didn't necessarily want to [151:26] believe it. Like I've had I used to not [151:28] believe it. [151:29] >> Do you believe it now? [151:30] >> Definitely. Yeah. [151:31] >> Why definitely? um because of the the [151:35] information by the blood doctor guy [151:37] which I'm I hate to keep calling him [151:39] that. I wish I knew who what his name [151:41] was and also my friend who was at the [151:43] Shroud analysis at Duke University and [151:47] uh also like what Father Dalton talks [151:50] about you know I mean the thing is is [151:53] that it looks pretty weird and [151:55] >> it's definitely weird. [151:56] >> Yeah. Yeah. So yeah, so I believe it, [151:58] but I'm not like I can't prove that and [152:01] I'm not going to. That's why I do [152:02] religious studies, by the way. I'm not a [152:03] theologian. I can't say yes, you must [152:05] believe this. I don't know. I I believe [152:08] it. That's what I can say. [152:09] >> Dr. John Campbell. [152:10] >> Yeah, I think [152:11] >> three million subscribers on YouTube. [152:12] >> Yeah. Yeah, that's him. Yeah, that's [152:13] him. [152:14] >> Okay. But why do you I still understand [152:16] why do you believe if it turns out that [152:18] these people are all saying the truth [152:20] that it was made with it would die? [152:24] >> Yeah. Yeah, of course. Then I'll just [152:27] change my perception because I have new [152:29] data. I will change my theory. Like [152:32] right now I believe it's the truth. [152:33] >> But that data does exist that it's made [152:35] with dye. [152:37] >> Okay. So there dye could have put on [152:40] been put on it. I believe that there is [152:43] a [152:43] >> an image on it. There is an image on it. [152:47] How did that image get there? That [152:49] image. So this is the kind of thing that [152:51] things could have been done with it. It [152:52] was repaired. It was, you know, it went [152:55] through many hands. I mean, I am a [152:57] person who knows about Catholic relics. [152:59] I know what happens to them. So, these [153:02] are things that would be normal in the [153:04] life of a relic that they would be [153:06] handled sometimes with care, sometimes [153:08] with not not with care. Um, so yeah, [153:11] that's my belief, Joe. Like if I get, [153:14] you know, analysis from somebody like [153:17] Gary Nolan and he does this like, you [153:19] know, microscopic analysis of everything [153:22] and says, "No, Diana, sorry. This is [153:24] not, you know, I'll be Oh, that's too [153:26] bad. I really enjoyed having that belief [153:29] for 10 years." [153:30] >> But it seems like if the radiocarbon [153:31] dating was from 1988, like, shouldn't we [153:34] do some sort of an updated analysis of [153:36] what this thing is? [153:37] >> Yeah, that's right. [153:38] >> To settle it. [153:40] >> Totally. Yeah, I'm all for that. [153:42] >> Ask a question. Where is it now? [153:44] >> Where does it live? Is [laughter] it [153:46] like [153:47] >> I think it's I think honestly I think [153:49] it's in Tin, but I could be wrong. Yeah. [153:51] Yeah. In Italy. [153:52] >> Oh, wow. [153:53] >> Yeah, I could be wrong though. But I [153:55] think it is. [153:56] >> Can you look at it? You can go there and [153:58] look at it. [153:58] >> Yeah, I think you can. [153:59] >> Yep. [154:00] >> It's in the Cathe Cathedral of St. John [154:03] the Baptist in Turan, Italy. It's been [154:04] housed there since 1578. Okay. That's [154:07] where it's always been. [154:08] >> Amazing. No one's trying to steal it. [154:12] Don't say that. [154:14] >> Why? [laughter] [154:17] >> Well, I mean, [154:18] >> would they have ever made a fake to hide [154:19] the real one? And that's like maybe [154:21] we're testing the fake one. [154:23] I don't know. Got special powers or [154:25] something if you put it on. [154:26] >> Plot thickens. [154:29] >> Um, anything else should we talk about [154:31] before we wrap this up? Is there [154:33] anything else we didn't cover? [154:35] >> No. You have a you have an alien image [154:38] up here and he has horns. Looks like a [154:40] demon. [154:41] >> Yeah, that's the mothership logo. Comedy [154:44] mothership. [154:44] >> Oh, yeah. Okay. [154:45] >> Yeah. [154:46] >> Just saying. [snorts] [154:48] >> I know. There's no real significance to [154:51] it, though. It's just fun. [154:52] >> Yeah, of course. Of course. [154:54] >> Allegedly. [154:57] I see you did notice that though. It is [155:00] weird. I get it. Especially after we're [155:02] talking. I should have showed that to [155:03] JD. I'm like, you think that's [155:06] >> Oh, yeah. Yeah. He may have noticed it [155:08] and chose not to say anything. [155:09] >> I don't think he did. [155:11] >> Okay. [155:11] >> I think he probably would have brought [155:12] it up. [155:15] >> So, nothing nothing else to Is there [155:17] anything else you wanted to talk about [155:18] before we wrap this up? [155:19] >> I just published a book. It came out [155:21] yesterday called The Others. [155:22] >> And what is it about? [155:24] >> Uh, it's about stuff we've been talking [155:26] about, but it's also about religion and [155:28] about the spiritual sense and things [155:30] like that and AI. So, it has a uh it has [155:33] a a theory of ET if if you know we're [155:38] talking about ET. It has a theory of ET [155:40] in it [155:41] >> and a couple other things. So, yeah. [155:44] >> Uh what is your theory of ET? [155:46] >> Well, I'm I'm uh rehousing some theory. [155:49] So, I'm like the theory of uh advanced [155:53] technology [155:54] being what people are encountering when [155:57] they're encountering what they consider [155:59] to be aliens and ET. We talked a little [156:02] bit about this last time. It was [156:03] something that I was thinking of it uh [156:05] and I just uh rehashed it. So, it's it's [156:08] there in the book in a more developed [156:10] form. Uh, if I were to just do an [156:13] elevator description of it though, uh, I [156:16] would say that Stephen Spielberg's film [156:18] AI is a really good film about ET and [156:23] what he thinks, you know, if ET were I [156:26] know he's just done disclosure day, but [156:28] a but his movie AI seems like [156:30] >> when was that movie? [156:31] >> It was a long time ago, but it's really [156:34] good if you rewatch it today. Um, at the [156:38] end I'm not going to do well people [156:41] should have seen it already, right? At [156:42] the end there are the are uh aliens and [156:45] they're basically humans have long since [156:48] gone and their technology their AI has [156:52] improved itself to the point where it's [156:54] a life form and so that would be like [156:57] the theory of [156:58] >> I think that's probably [157:00] >> Oh wow. Hill Josnut rap science. [157:03] >> I kind of remember this [157:05] >> law. [157:06] >> It's about AI, but at the end it ends up [157:09] being kind of like a uh a theory of of [157:12] ET. [157:15] >> Yeah. Which I kind of have a feeling [157:17] that life eventually stops being [157:20] biological and becomes digital and maybe [157:22] that's what people are encountering. [157:24] >> Yeah, that's what the the others is. It [157:27] has a chapter or two chapters about [157:29] that. Yeah. All right. Well, Diana, it's [157:33] always fascinating talking to you. I [157:35] really enjoyed it. Thank you very much. [157:37] >> Uh, did you do the audio book or did you [157:38] have an actor do it? [157:40] >> No, I did it. [157:40] >> Thank you. [157:42] >> It's always better. It really is. It's [157:44] always better when an an author actually [157:46] does the audio book. There it is. The [157:48] others UFO AI and the secret forces [157:52] guiding human destiny. [157:56] And I really loved your other book too, [157:57] American Cosmic. [157:58] >> Oh, thank you. Thank you. Appreciate [158:00] that. All right. Thank you so much. [158:01] >> Thank you. Thank you for being here. [158:02] Let's do it again sometime next time. [158:03] You got another book. [158:04] >> Okay. [158:04] >> I'm sure you're going to keep writing. [158:06] >> All right. [158:06] >> Next time. Yeah. About [music] [158:08] Christianity probably. [158:09] >> Okay. Cool. We'll do it. All right. [158:11] Thank you. Bye, everybody. [158:17] [music]

PASULKA: DEFENSE LABS CONCEAL NON-HUMAN TECH FROM ELECTED OFFICIALS

Detailed notes

[02:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=161s) Government UFO Releases and JD Vance's "Demons" Comment

[04:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=277s) Catholic Theology, the Preternatural, and UFO Pattern Matching

[08:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=521s) Malevolent Intent, Skinwalker Ranch, and the "Hitchhiker Effect"

[14:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=842s) Analyzing Telepathic Messages, Prophetic Dreams, and Mental Illness

[17:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1040s) Deception, Dreams, and Demonic Frameworks

[22:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1336s) Disappearances and Danger: The Valentich Incident

[27:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1621s) *Close Encounters*, Jacques Vallee, and the Super Spectrum

[31:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1861s) Human Senses, Travis Walton, and the Cold Coffee Interlude

[33:55](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2035s) Bob Lazar, S4, and the Case for Discerning Credibility

[40:50](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2450s) Disinformation Tactics: Project Beta, Paul Bennewitz, and Richard Doty

[45:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=2741s) Pre-Industrial Historical Records and AI as an Interface

[50:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3054s) AI as a Perceptual Bridge for Higher Contact

[52:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3164s) Governmental Secrecy and Warnings to Stop Writing

[57:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=3431s) Amnesty, Slush Funds, and Financial Fraud

[01:07:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4052s) Physical Evidence, Atomic Layering, and Secret Government Labs

[01:10:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4216s) Early Recruitment of Elite Scientists and Hidden Programs

[01:14:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4466s) Covert Operatives, Spacetime Folding, and National Security

[01:18:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=4733s) Roswell, Reverse-Engineered Tech, and Historical Aviation Anomalies

[01:23:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5018s) Early Advanced Aircraft and the Kenneth Arnold Sighting

[01:28:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5298s) Stealth Technology, Unidentified Phenomena, and Leaked Documents

[01:33:36](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5616s) Reverse Engineering, Psychological Motivation, and Belief Construction

[01:38:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5913s) Perception Management and Silent Psychological Operations

[01:39:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=5953s) Psychological Manipulation, Belief, and Technological Innovation

[01:42:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6124s) Military Capability, Disclosure Risk, and the Hal Puthoff Story

[01:45:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6317s) Public Perception, J.D. Vance, and Non-Human Intelligences

[01:48:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6526s) The Book of Enoch, The Watchers, and Ancient Genetic Engineering

[01:54:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6854s) Early Christian Traditions and the Watchers

[01:55:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=6902s) Pasulka's Conversion and Early Religious Journey

[01:59:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7165s) Catholic Theology and How UFO Research Transformed Her Faith

[02:02:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7363s) Personal Encounter Stories and Academic Objectivity

[02:09:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7749s) Contact Rituals and Psionics

[02:10:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7813s) CE-5 Protocols, Demonic Lore, and Inviting Entities In

[02:12:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=7940s) Psychedelics, the Spiritual Sense, and Egodeath

[02:17:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8232s) Reevaluating the Shroud of Turin

[02:22:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8526s) The Tilma of Our Lady of Guadalupe

[02:26:18](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=8778s) Debating the Authenticity and Origin of the Shroud of Turin

[02:31:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9076s) Why Diana Pasulka Believes and the Need for Updated Testing

[02:34:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=9269s) "The Others" and the Non-Biological Theory of Alien Life

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Detailed notes — zh

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Original transcript

[27:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=wo6K0Bav3K0&t=1621s) Close Encounters, Jacques Vallee, and the Super Spectrum