诺奖得主考里科斥学术界货币化 称曾遭宾大解雇抛弃

诺奖得主考里科斥学术界货币化 称曾遭宾大解雇抛弃 考里科指出科研应是注重数据可重复性的长跑耐力赛，而追求论文发表和引用频次的体制正导致科学研究偏离初衷。 在本次专访中，诺奖得主卡塔林·考里科分享了她如何在漫长的科研“冷板凳”生涯中坚守初心，并探讨了婚姻、育儿与科学研究的真谛。她强调女性需要能理解并支持自己梦想的伴侣，并通过言传身教培养出了奥运冠军女儿。面对体制内的打压、不公和资本的浮躁，她主张保持“内稳态”并专注科学本身。如今她依然保持着对科研的极度热忱，利用生成式AI辅助研究，并在拯救生命的成就感中不断前行。 考里科分享了家庭与事业的平衡之道，主张女性应选择理解并尊重自己梦想的伴侣，并通过言传身教培养孩子的独立性，她也以此将女儿苏珊培养成为两届奥运会赛艇金牌得主。 (0:00) 面对学术打压与职场困境，考里科践行汉斯·塞利的“内稳态”理论，不为无法掌控的事情焦虑，58岁被宾大解雇后赴德国BioNTech继续钻研，最终奠定了新冠疫苗的基础。 (9:59) 相比于诺贝尔奖的殊荣，考里科表示mRNA技术在养老院真正挽救重症生命所带来的成就感无与伦比，并指出该技术正加速拓展至癌症疫苗、罕见病及过敏治疗等领域。 (14:59) 考里科指出科学研究是一场“耐力长跑”而非追求短利的快跑，批评了学术界将论文和经费作为评判标准的风气，并感念当年巴纳森和兰格等同行在无经费时对其研究的无私支持。 (24:59) 谈及科技与退休，考里科肯定了生成式AI的辅助价值但强调跨领域直觉依赖人类智能；她坦言帮助患者解除痛苦的紧迫感是科学家的“恩赐与诅咒”，只要还在呼吸就不会停止探索。 (30:59)

2023年诺贝尔生理学或医学奖得主卡塔林·考里科（Catalin Karikó）在专访中阐明，科学探索是一场不应被功利考量和资本泡沫绑架的“耐力跑”，而个人的长期坚守则有赖于平等的婚姻支撑、独立务实的育儿观以及将逆境转化为动力的豁达心态。 伴侣尊重与言传身教：家庭分工与独立人格塑造 (0:00) 面对女性在科研与家庭间平衡的难题，考里科强调选择理解并尊重妻子梦想的伴侣至关重要。她的丈夫贝拉·弗兰西亚（Béla Francia）不仅支持她赴美科研、包揽家务并照料女儿，还常利用高超的动手能力帮她修复损坏的实验器材。两人结婚时突破匈牙利传统，各自保留独立姓氏，建立在纯粹的欣赏与平等之上。考里科主张父母不必过度干涉和包办孩子的一切，而是应让孩子参与家庭劳动并培养独立性。 在女儿苏珊·弗兰西亚（Susan Francia）成长为两届奥运会赛艇金牌得主的过程中，考里科秉持言传身教的理念。她曾陪伴年幼的苏珊通宵打磨一份研究作业，以极致的专注态度感染女儿；而在苏珊长达四年的严苛备战期中，考里科每日都在电话中预演并提供心理疏导。她认为自身与女儿的勤奋与自驱力，均源自对家庭上一代勤勉务实态度的耳濡目染。 挫折管理与内稳态：拒绝精神内耗与化阻力为动力 (9:59) 在长达数十年的科研低谷中，考里科推崇加拿大生理学家汉斯·塞利的“内稳态”理论，主张不为无法掌控的事情焦虑。她践行一种务实的心态调节法：若做错事，应在两小时内决定道歉或彻底放下；身处有毒的工作环境时，则应果断离开以确保自身快乐。面对58岁在宾夕法尼亚大学被解雇的重大打击，她并未消沉，而是选择前往德国BioNTech继续推进mRNA研究，促成了后来的新冠疫苗成果。 对于过往生涯中的打压与排挤（如曾试图阻止其升学的高中教师及驱逐其行李的大学同僚），考里科拒绝怀恨在心，直言“怨恨会毒害自己”。她反而公开感谢这些阻碍者，认为正是外部的严酷刁难逼迫她必须做到最好、更加拼命工作，最终将外界的不公转化为自我精进的强大催化剂。 科研的本质与回馈：超越学术指标与奖项的生命救助 (14:59) 考里科指出，真正的科学探索是一场“耐力运动”，但当前的科研生态正受到资本急功近利和学术晋升机制的双重侵蚀。硅谷风投资本往往缺乏耐心，迫不及待地将未成熟的技术推向临床试验并导致失败；学术界则将论文发表与引用频次异化为争夺经费与职位的“货币”，导致大量未成熟甚至无法复现的研究被草率发表。考里科主张科研人员应专注于科学本身，因为行政头衔取决于他人评判，而研究规律永远充满乐趣且不会令人失望。 对待实验中的挫败，她引述达芬奇的格言——“实验永远不会失败，失败的只有你的预期”。相比于诺贝尔奖的殊荣，考里科认为科研工作最大的回报在于技术真正拯救生命。2021年纽约Meadowbrook养老院在接种mRNA疫苗后遭遇疫情感染却实现零死亡，老人们穿着印有她肖像的T恤举行庆祝活动，这种挽救鲜活生命的实感对她而言远超任何奖项。 mRNA应用前沿与“科学家的诅咒”：终生探索的使命感 (19:59) 考里科回顾了mRNA技术的发展历程，指出该技术早在疫情前就已开展狂犬病毒和心衰等临床试验，目前正拓展至更广泛的领域：在传染病方面，针对艾滋病毒、呼吸道合胞病毒及带状疱疹的疫苗正在研发；在肿瘤学领域，Moderna与BioNTech正在开发编码双特异性抗体及细胞因子的mRNA，通过将“冷肿瘤变热”来抗击癌症；此外，该技术还涉足囊性纤维化、食物过敏及结核病治疗。关于新兴的生成式AI，考里科认为其虽能高效辅助关联分析，但颠覆性创新仍取决于人类天然智能跨领域阅读所迸发的直觉火花。 考里科将科研工作者的状态形容为一种“恩赐与诅咒”：当深知患者正在承受痛苦而自己手中可能握有解决方案时，这种紧迫感会驱使人无法安坐或享受悠闲生活。即便年至古稀且已被体制强制退休，她依然保持着顺着文献探索至深夜的工作节奏，坦言只要呼吸尚存，就会竭尽所能继续解决问题。 考里科的经历反映了基础科研面临的现实矛盾：宾大等学术机构实行按科研经费分配实验室的残酷考核机制，使她在失去外部资助的岁月中饱受边缘化，全赖心脏科埃利奥特·巴纳森与神经外科大卫·兰格等同行自掏经费相助才得以留存。她强调，科学探索的核心动力必须建立在对科学真理的纯粹热爱与帮助他人的内在使命上，而非追逐外界赋予的地位与浮名。

[0:00] 卡塔林·考里科: 不要放弃 [9:59] 卡塔林·考里科: 门就在那里，你可以做出决定，你必须让自己快乐 [9:59] 卡塔林·考里科: 怨恨会毒害你 [14:59] 卡塔林·考里科: 没有任何诺贝尔奖能产生这种感觉 [14:59] 达芬奇: 实验永远不会失败，失败的只有你的预期 [24:59] 卡塔林·考里科: 科学永远不会让你失望 [30:59] 卡塔林·考里科: 恩赐与诅咒 [30:59] 卡塔林·考里科: 大概只有在入土为安之后，我才能真正休息。在此之前，我会尽我所能去提供帮助。

[0:00] 诺奖女科学家是如何处理婚姻关系的是如何将女儿培养成奥运世界冠军的是如何拥有爱人和热爱世界的能力的是如何在40年的冷板灯当中继续自己事业奋斗的那么这期视频我们继续通过MRNA诺奖得主Catalin Caracol和我们硅谷101的独家专访来走进这位女科学家强大的内心Hello大家好欢迎收看硅谷101我是陈倩那么上一期视频当中我们是主要勾勒了Catlin的整个人生的起伏非常的精彩没有看的可以去我们主页翻一下我们上一条视频去看一下但是我觉得还是有点遗憾是因为他跟我分享的很多有意思的对话在上一个视频没有完全的放出来而这些观点和他的人生态度我觉得是对我们当代年轻人甚至是普通打工族都有着非常值得借鉴的意义所以这一期视频我们就按照话题上限于2023年诺贝尔生理学或医学奖得主mRNA疫苗技术奠基人Catalin Curricul的完整英文版材榜 For your whole life, you devoted so much time on research and science that you said you needed your husband to support your dream and your daughter to be independent. I know this is such a cliched question, but how do you handle work-life balance as a mom, as a wife, and also as a female scientist? You ask for the girls, obviously, you know, they don't make a decision to have family and good profession and good scientists. You know, I myself, you know, have a daughter. And so for that one, definitely they have to select a good husband, a good partner, because, you know. But I think the husband has to appreciate that the wife has a dream. Because when the child is crying there or the elderly parents are there, everybody is looking at the woman. They should take care of the babies, you know, who should, you know, they should be. And then even the women would feel that, okay, this problem is right there. The child is crying and if they don't have enough finance money, you know, because the child care is very expensive, then, you know, they give up their dreams. And I tell them not to give up. You don't have to overdo, you know, maybe in the first year, but, you know, you have to be with child, but you don't have to assist your child that much. You know, they they you have to love them, but they like to be independent. So let their do and participate in the family life. Do some chores and they will be proud. You know, don't think that it is a labor, child labor. No, you know. So that's what I try to tell them that, you know, it is more important what you are acting, because I watch my parents how they relate to each other and to other people and that's what, you know, shaping your personality and that's what your child will do Watch you that work hard and then they try that they appreciate and they want to follow what you are doing Yeah, so that's just do your work Catelyn在她的自占当中花了很大的篇幅去讲她和她丈夫 I love the love story所以那就是做你的工作尊重Bella的工作还有她的骄傲就像她尊重她自己的父亲是个屠夫一样那Catlin认为只要你做一行在这一行里面用心做到最好那么任何的工作都是值得骄傲的包括后来Catlin把实验室当中很多坏掉的实验用品和仪器拿回家Bella都能够很快的给她修好那么Catlin就觉得自己的老公非常让她骄傲和开心而Bella Francia也是给了Catlin无尽的支持还有爱Bella从一开始就知道Catlin投身于科学的决心所以之后陪她到美国陪她度过漫长的艰辛岁月照顾好女儿在他们结婚的时候匈牙利的女性都要冠上丈夫的姓名但是Kathleen和Bella都很喜欢自己的姓所以他们一直都是Kathleen Carrico和Bella Francia那两个独立的个体纯粹的爱和欣赏理解对方 [4:59] 梦想和骄傲并且给了女儿营造出温暖有爱和快乐的家庭那么这是Catlin在家庭和婚姻上的做法那也成了她几十年不如意的科研生活的坚强的后端而在Catlin的教育理念上我觉得还给我挺大启发的因为她要在科研上去投入非常多的时间所以从女儿一出生开始她就告诉女儿Susan女儿一定要独立而Catlin她的科研生涯呢取决于女儿有多么的独立但对于Susan坚韧想要做的最好想要赢的性格呢Catlin是足以培养的并且呢她并没有缺席女儿的成长那书中还写到有一次Susan还很小的时候呢回家写一个社会研究的作业Susan呢就想了一个非常有野心的主题啊但是呢两人都低估了这项作业要耗费了时间那么结果是呢Catlin陪着Susan熬了整整一个通宵一夜没睡和Susan一起实现了Susan在这个作业上她想要做到的最好的效果还有深度那么Cathlin在书中就写道我注意到她的决心 她的专注度她因为聚焦而咬紧的下落Susan是向Cathlin的这就是Cathlin所说也传声教后来呢 Susan是考上了宾夕法尼亚大学,并且成为了赛艇的两届奥运冠军。 Would you say Susan is lucky or like? You know, we didn't have here money, but I mean, we came in this country. I never had a housekeeper, nobody ever one hour cleaned our home. We never had a babysitter. So in the school, we put Susan there and the elementary school, they had this after school program. And that's why she started to do all of the sports, because that was the after school program. And then, you know, she she friended with all of those other kids. And that's just good. And we were there in the Shuni. this rowing venue and we stay nearby in a very Chinese hotel, very ancient and my sister was there my husband was there, we went to the opening ceremony, I mean it was unbelievable, fantastic it's all of those drummers and it was so hot, the weather was very warm and this unbelievable performance we could see there anyway, but you know when they were in the final and they get the gold medal and everything, you know, people telling me, oh, my God, if my daughter would get the gold medal, oh, what I would do. But for me, it was just a relief that's finally over because you have to understand that for four years, every day, every morning, every day, they are practicing, practicing. And then after, she always called me, you know, when I was working in the lab and told me that, oh, today it didn't went well. And then I had to always prepare in my mind what I will tell her to, you know, keep her spirit up. And that four years, you know, it was like a second or five minutes that they have, you know, to go madame. But, yeah, it was like four years every day getting the phone call. And of course, we were very proud of her. And we went, we were, you know, in the big nest. Also, we have seen different athletics. We also went to look at swimming, basketball, different kind of competition. We went there in Beijing. And it was just so perfectly arranged, beautiful. You seem so self-motivated all the time. You do your hard work, you make sure you are the best, you move forward and stay focused. I'm just wondering if self-motivation is something you are born with or it's gained later from your surroundings like your parents. I'm sure that seeing our parents is helping us because we can see how hard they work. I'm sure that you have seen your parents and then you try to imitate them and you appreciate what they gave you and then you want to put in a new level. And because my parents had just elementary school education and my sister who's three years older, she got a PhD in economics. So, you know, we went to high school, university. I mean, that was so far, far away what our parents could, but because they had no chance to go to school. They work very hard. You know, it's important that in addition to your daily work, you set up some kind of goals and you work towards, you finish, you submit. That's already victory. Well, [9:59] 会对大家有一些启发。 to focus on, I had a deadline, and I had to read and finish and thinking what is the outcome, what I will do. So, they have to enjoy. And if, you know, they enjoy, you know, following instruction, they should go to military. If they enjoy to be a, you know, spotlight, they should be an actress or reporters, like you are here, you know, they are in the spotlight. But if they want to solve puzzles and problems, which will help eventually somebody, you know, science is for them. How do you cope with pressure and long-term anxiety, both physically and mentally? So it is very important to have physical and mental health because you know they can overdo it and they can burn up that they will not care anymore anything So you have to maintain a healthy balance in a, you know, and physical health is important. So that's why I was running, you know. And then in a mental health is that, you know, don't agonize and things so that, you know, But the Shaya said that, you know, you have to have homeostasis. If something bothers you, you just, okay, in this two hours, I will decide what, you know, I hurt somebody. I said something I shouldn't. Okay, I have to decide right now. I don't care anymore or I will go there and apologize. I can do that. Whether somebody will forgive me or not, I cannot control that. So you have to always decide what I can do. And then close down. and then don't agonize and keep, you know, thinking about something which bothers you. And if you don't hike in a place, I mean, when you go to work, you have to be happy. Oh, he's here. Oh, what's going on? And work together. But you go to some toxic place you know you can walk out The door is there You can make a decision And so because you have to be happy you have to be happy And then you can create yourself a good environment and have others who might not knowing that So that's that's very critical. Over the years, have you often thought of Mr. Bitter or those who have given you such a hard time? No, you know, I have to say also that I met him after I was accepted to the university. But that's what it is. You don't carry any grudge against anybody. It poisons you. So that when I was accepted to the university, I didn't want to him. When we went to five years reunion at the high school, I didn't want to tell him, oh, you see, I am in the university. No, you didn't stop me. If you think about, and that's what many award ceremony, I thank to the people who try to make my life miserable. I thank them because they made me work harder. If he says to me when I was 18 that I make sure that I arrange that you will be accepted to the university, probably in the summer I will sit back. I am in, you know, but he said he will make sure that I don't get. So I had to be the best. And so it inspired me to work harder. So thanks to him You have to practice this You know it not coming easy when you are fired from your position and to be happy that oh that great I have a new opportunity to find another job No you don't. You get the thinking of what happened, but do not spend time to feel sorry for yourself and thinking about that you have some more colleagues there who are, in your opinion, is worse and why you, why not them? And it's because it can take out all of your energy. You have to immediately say, okay, it is done. And then you focus on what can I do? You know, I mean, I don't, I was not happy that I was terminated in Hungary. I was not happy that, you know, they took my stuff out of my lap here, you know. But without it, probably you won't get the BioNTech Pfizer vaccine. Maybe, you know. So, you know, it is to go to Germany and what next when I am 58 years old and I am terminated. I could sit at home and see the grass growing, but I said, okay, I still can do things and then go there. And that's always your decision. So somebody else deciding that you are not good enough, but you believe in yourself and then you... [14:59] 不怨恨不专注负面情绪永远去寻找下一个解决方案那么这是Cathlin给出的答案我觉得也是非常的受用当然在Cathlin获得诺贝尔奖并且出版了她的自传之后书中提到了相关的欺压过她的人甚至包括冰大医学院都是遭遇到了极大的社会批评还有舆论压力但是我觉得还是挺为Catlin出了口气的但是Catlin她也在专访当中说到无论是荣誉还是失败要学会接受也要学会坦然的面对Hom did you call on the day when you heard you won the Nobel Prize?I tried to call my daughterbut she was sleepingand turned off all of the telephoneYou know she has a one year old三十三年代,那些人不需要用到的 alarm clock,因为他们有两个人的 alarm clock,那些孩子会醒来,然后我叫我姊妹,我学会,她可以看电视,看电视, Then I called my sister when I learned, you know, and she could turn on the TV and watch it. And but my daughter was just later on. She said that her son woke her up. And so she she went to prepare something because he was hungry. And then she turned on the telephone and all of these messages there and congratulating her. And she started to cry. And the little boy was, Mommy, it's OK. He didn't know why she was crying. How does it feel like to save billions of lives? Yes, I have to say that there is an elderly home, Meadowbrook elderly home, which in New York, they received a resident, they received a vaccine. And one week later, first person get infected and then more infected. And they knew prior to that, it was in 2021, January. Prior to that, they knew that if in an elderly home, infection is there, one third of the people die and nobody died. And they just get one vaccine. And this was already sufficient, you know, one dose to protect them. And then, you know, they figured out that they have to say thank you to me and so in 21 September they had a Catalina Carrico Appreciation Day and all of the elderly were sitting in the sun and they were celebrating they had a t-shirt with my picture on it and Catalina Carrico Appreciation Day and they were just you know and and the uh the staff sent me the pictures that how happy the residents were. And then, you know, there is not even a Nobel Prize can generate that kind of feeling. You know, when you see these elderly people happy, and they send me pictures when the first time, you know, whether it was Mother's Day, and the, you know, the children could visit their elderly mother there, and they took pictures. And so that was, you know, feeling that how important, you know, I don't take it that I discovered, I did so many people, this we did together, because all of those people, I mean, RNA, messenger RNA was discovered 60 years ago. And during those 60 years, so many people worked and advancing, advancing. And I feel that not just my colleague at BioNTech or Pfizer or Moderna, we did all together, but even those who not with us anymore so all cntributed to it. So I just feel collective happiness that it worked. As a scientist, failure perhaps is something you have to deal with all the time, while breakthroughs take so many years. How do you keep your passion in the lab? You don't have to so seriously take failure. You know, if you are a scientist, you constantly fail, you know, because you said, oh, experiment did not work. But I had a Leonardo da Vinci quote there that experiment never fails, only your expectation, because you didn't do the experiment you expected the result for. So, you know, but we constantly experimenting things that we expected something and we didn't happen in an experimental setting. And we know that, OK, this happens and just you stand up and move on and do the next experiment and try to figure out why you didn't get the result you expected. And so that's it. And the good spirit. So if you are not happy, you know, as understand for the graduation, Steve Jobs said that if a couple of days, one day after the other, you [19:59] Think about that. It would be the last day of my life. This is what I would want to do. And a couple of days you're saying, no, no, I don't want. Then you have to leave that thing. You know, you have to be enjoying whatever you are doing. And it could be the weirdest thing. I mean many people thought I am unsuccessful but I was very very happy in the lab I know that I didn't get the money but you know I was full control I could do every experiment I physically I did with my own hands because I had no help but it was fun it has to be fun那么在我们的采访当中也对Cathlin的毕生研究的mRNA技术做出了探讨Cathlin说她现在正在研究新的方向还有技术并不再是mRNA因为研究的基础工作已经完成那么接下来 出商公司们,代药厂们还有资本们将会把这个技术做到更加广泛的治疗还有产品当中去,未来依然有巨大的潜力。 who figured out that as an undergraduate Of course not It is just this was the only place I could get a job And who was leading the lipid team, you know, one day just entered a guy who was head of the RNA team and he said he has opening and I was looking for a place to do my PhD. And I said, OK, that's how it is. I was not a visionary. I was just whatever was, you know, the came in front of me, then I tried to tackle and try to be good at. And then I started to work there. RNA already in 78 synthesized chemically, enzymatically shorter RNA molecule that had antiviral effect. I had to set up an antiviral screening laboratory. I studied everything about viruses and did all of this work. What's next for the mRNA technology? So, prior to COVID vaccine, mRNA was used already in different therapies, actually for even infectious diseases, because for rabies, the rabies virus, Zika virus, for example, there were already clinical trials run by Curvec and Moderna So there were trials prior to 2020 And mRNA was clinical trial for heart failure already So just the people who were not attending to our little mRNA therapy meeting, they were not aware of that the mRNA, the messenger RNA, is already in the clinic. So right now, companies are developing messenger RNA for other infectious diseases. Many of them, we don't have any vaccine like HIV. They are trying to develop for those which we have, like RSV, respiratory syncytial virus, or shingles, which we have for shingles, but it is very expensive. and then the messenger RNA vaccine would be more affordable. In addition to that, actually the mRNA was first and used for quite a while and well advanced is cancer vaccines. So that advancing both in Moderna and BioNTech and other companies started to use also as a vaccine And I at the BioNTech I worked in the oncology field but those with my colleagues there we developed it was not vaccine but it was messenger RNA coding for antibody which recognized tumor-related proteins. So this we did animal study, and now it is in human trial. These were bispecific antibodies. We also did a development of mRNA coding for cytokines, which was injected to the tumor and made the cold tumor hot. And this is also with Sanofi-entered clinical trial. In addition to that, you can see that rare disease therapy now that Ricode just recently injected the first patient who had cystic fibrosis and inhaled the messenger RNA for the correct receptor. and other rare disease is also used. And for in using tolerance for different, like peanut allergy or dust mite allergy. And so there are more and more trial is entering, you know, and then of course, you know, the bacteria. So the TB, for example, [24:59] 或是因为Lime病毒他们也发展了Messenger RNA-based vaccination不确定性太高使得缺密的科学研究和急迫想要推动技术商业化的资本成为了相斥的力量凯特伦说他理解硅谷但是准备不抽分的科学注定是会失败的Venture capitalists here in Silicon Valley always want to chase and go after fancy names, right?They want to get FDA approval as fast as they could and make sure the technologists have product market fit但事实上是我们现在看到了大幅和低伏的大幅度像CRISPR的例子您提出你的提供了大幅度的小伙伴是的,这就是真的是一个运动的运动你必须要长距离而且这就是不一步的运动当然,当然 The science is, you know, is an endurance sport. You have to get long distance for and this is not a sprint. And of course, many venture capitalists want to get money back and quickly pushing products to push to the clinical trial. And of course, it's not well prepared and then they fail. And so they are not patient. And so I cannot change that. I just, you know, what I am doing is, you know, try to focus on on on thing and try to read and find out like in this new project, what other clinical trial was done? what did they measure, why it is failed, and learning from all of these things. So it takes time. And so we have just limited time in a day, and then we have to absorb so many different fields, so many experiments which were done. And we don't have to do it, but it takes time to read and understand and come up with the best solution. And, you know, as I describe in the book, every time we made experiments, you know, try to answer one question, we get more questions and not the answer. And that's we have to be researcher because we are searching and researching. That's why we are researcher, not just searcher. So it is a lot of repetition and you have to be confident that your data is reproducible. It's not just for small companies failing because they rushed, rushed, but many of the papers, you know, they had to retract because it was not ready. And it is also that, you know, kind of the publication and getting more reference for it, it is somehow as a currency and it started to be this is the goal, you know, to get more money, more promotion and advancing scientifically in a hierarchy. and instead of, you know, focusing on understanding that field of science, it's somehow I could see the disappointment is coming also from the shift, because all of a sudden when you are waiting for the promotion and all of these things, it's not depending on you. Somebody make a decision, but the science to investigate, it is always there. And you can work on it and it will never disappoint you. And it is fun. I mean, to be a scientist is fun. But you cannot set up a goal that, oh, I will be a professor. I will have a big team. I will be a chairman. You cannot. You mentioned that PEN has this dollar per net square footage policy. for the department to make sure staff and researchers can bring funding. And maybe it's not a pen thing. It's like all across the U.S. or the world. But it doesn't sound very fair to scientists, including yourself. I was terminated in my position 10 years ago, so I don't have a laboratory here anymore. I was forced to retire, and then I don't get any laboratory, any team I don't have here at University of Pennsylvania. How could I stay with the system? You know, I didn't get support. But for seven years, Elliot Barnet and my colleague who hired me at Cardiology, he paid my salary. It was supposed that as a faculty, I supposed to get the grant. But even I didn't get the grant for seven years. He paid my salary. And when it was there, [29:59] that now he has to leave. There were, you know, another person. This was David Langer, the neurosurgeon, who was just a resident, but he couldn't convince the chairman of neurosurgery that they need a molecular biologist, and they gave me laboratory and a small salary. So that it is people who are working together with colleagues, and they can see that the person is doing good. So maybe there should be some extra fund to help those scientists because they both recognize that what I am doing is interesting. They have, we did together. And of course, they were there in Stockholm when I get the Nobel Prize. Both of them were there. I invited them because they saved me. Because of them, I could work 24 years at FEN. Do you use some generative AI tools like ChatBT? Does that help with your research? Yes, of course, they are already using and figuring out things which you couldn't imagine. And of course how good it is how good the data that you feed into you know is And many things when I am reading you know unrelated ideas you know come only in your not artificial but the natural intelligence your brain will come Oh my God I didn't know that. And then you are the only one who can put together. You never feed the data that because you don't know that it is related to certain things. Of course, you know, it improving, it improves and but everything can be you know just like if you think about many advancement you know drones they can carry medicine in africa remote area they can carry a bomb to kill people you know everything can be used good and bad that was the same the social media you can information you can spread you know some misinformation or good information so that it depends on on how you you are using it and and hopefully you know the next generation of students will will learn and they will use it for good good reason you mentioned in your book that you would always keep your window open especially when you are tired to let the cold wind come into the house to keep you awake Is your window open right now No, I didn't open, actually, but you can see what I can see here. But during the night, even if it is snowing outside, I keep open during the night. I don't really sleep much. Do many people ask you when you're going to officially retire? Even today, when people say, oh, you can stop now, Cathy, you know, you did enough. But when I have the feeling that I might be able to help somebody because I understand, I feel I understand the disease and nobody understands. And I understand. And I even have a solution. This is like a blessing and a curse to be a scientist, because, you know, the curse is that it won't let you to sit down because those people are suffering and you might have the solution. and then it is just urging you that you have to read more you have to figure out how you can help directly sooner than later then and they are waiting the patients are there and they are waiting and they are suffering and somehow it is just cannot lay I cannot lay back I when I go to visit my daughter in San Diego you know I said what are those people are doing on the beach They have something to do. My daughter always laughing at me. I said, I won't be able to leave here. I cannot watch that. All Sunday morning, you know, they are playing balls in the sand. And yeah, so probably not good for everybody to be a scientist, special mind setting. And definitely to be a scientist is not a, you know, family friendly position. And because you are always your mind is somewhere else. You know, many times it was in the supermarket. They came to something in my mind. And then of course, half of the thing I supposed to purchase that I forget completely because I came to that, oh, I think that somebody must be measured. That's the thing which can drive me overnight because I realized something. And then I said, somebody has done and I have to find it. And prior to that, 15, 20, 20 years ago, I had to wait next day to go to the library and find those references. But now, [34:59] front of me on the computer and I look at this paper, find something that it must be here, not not here. The references I like, okay, that's more reference, more reference. And then it was midnight and now it is two o'clock. I should go to sleep, but you cannot fall asleep because you feel that that would be also one part of the questions. And then it can, this kind of thing, you know, you can name it curse, you know, what the scientists is just cannot stop as long as they move, they try to find solution for problems. Yeah, probably never rest. Six feet under, probably I will rest. But until that, you know, I try my best to have. 科研和人类的未来 希望大家和我一样能从中得到非常多的鼓励和启发 如果喜欢我们的内容记得关注我们的账号 你们的点赞评论还有转发呢是支持我们做深度高质量内容的最佳动力 那我们就下期节目再见啦 Bye