Rico Verhoeven Seeks Oleksandr Usyk Rematch After Controversial Debut Loss

首秀存争议告负后，Rico Verhoeven 寻求与 Oleksandr Usyk 展开二番战 踢拳冠军 Rico Verhoeven 在金字塔对决遭遇争议判决落败后，拒绝了与 Francis Ngannou 的高酬劳对战以及 UFC 的报价，执意寻求与 Oleksandr Usyk 进行拳击复赛。 GLORY 长期重量级冠军 Rico Verhoeven 做客 Joe Rogan 节目，详细讲述了他与 Oleksandr Usyk 之间高风险的跨界拳击赛，包括在教练 Peter Fury 指导下的战术准备、裁判失误以及其团队提起的正式比赛申诉。Verhoeven 还袒露了在失去双亲后平复个人悲伤的过程、与 Jason Statham 和 Jake Gyllenhaal 等明星搭档进军好莱坞演艺界的转型经历，以及放弃 GLORY 头衔以寻求自由选手身份的决定。两人还探讨了全球格斗运动的流行趋势，涉及 UFC 手套重新设计、斜踢导致的膝伤，再到荷兰踢拳历史及重量级配对动态。 Rico Verhoeven 与 Joe Rogan 深入探讨了他对阵 Oleksandr Usyk 的重量级拳赛争议，并呼吁在格斗运动中引入视频助理裁判（VAR）机制和五人裁判团，以减少裁判失误与争议判决。 (4:12) 这场跨界大战的促成极具戏剧性，是在 Verhoeven 拍摄电影《威龙杀阵2》（Road House 2）期间，由动作影星杰森·斯坦森（Jason Statham）在拉斯维加斯直接向顶级拳击推广人引荐达成的。 (12:03) Verhoeven 在统治 GLORY 重量级后放弃冠军头衔成为自由选手；尽管曾与 UFC 就对阵 Derrick Lewis 进行过初步接洽，但他最终选择了商业价值更高的顶级拳击赛事。 (25:40) 根据前 8 回合战平的公开计分，教练 Peter Fury 催促 Verhoeven 加强攻势，但随后的直线压上导致他正面吃到了 Usyk 决定性的迎击上勾拳，成为比赛的关键转折点。 (29:43) 为适应职业拳击，Verhoeven 在 Peter Fury 指导下耗时 6 个月磨练全新打法，彻底克服了踢拳中为了防守扫踢而保持的正向站架，转为传统的侧向拳击站姿。 (62:35)

Following his controversial boxing title clash with Oleksandr Usyk, longtime Glory Heavyweight Champion Rico Verhoeven and Joe Rogan examine the flaws of modern fight officiating, the strategic adaptations required in elite striking crossover bouts, and the promotional dynamics shaping late-career athlete decisions. Controversial Stoppage, Flawed Scoring, and Officiating Reform (0:13) Verhoeven stepped into a championship boxing showdown against Usyk with only one previous professional boxing bout, yet both he and Rogan contend he controlled substantial portions of the contest. Their frustration centers on the scorecards, which remained tied after eight rounds under open scoring, and the referee's decision to halt the contest at the end of the eleventh round. Verhoeven notes he was struck and stopped after the bell without exhibiting concussion symptoms, prompting a formal appeal that was acknowledged by commission officials but ultimately left unoverturned. Rogan branded the tight cards and early stoppage as the result of either pure incompetence or unconscious promotional bias. To address systemic officiating failures in combat sports, both speakers advocate for technological and structural modernization. Verhoeven questions why combat sports fail to implement real-time Video Assistant Referee (VAR) systems akin to global soccer, where obvious errors can be swiftly corrected. Rogan recommends expanding standard three-judge panels to five—mirroring Glory Kickboxing's format to dilute rogue scorecards—or establishing digital scoring panels composed of verified veteran fighters, trainers, and commentators. Technical Evolution from Kickboxing to Boxing Against Usyk (12:03) Preparing for Usyk required Verhoeven to dismantle decades of ingrained kickboxing habits. Under trainer Peter Fury, Verhoeven underwent six months of intensive coaching to abandon his square, kick-checking stance in favor of a traditional, bladed boxing posture. The tactical blueprint prioritized circling left away from Usyk’s power hand while applying constant physical pressure and non-stop offensive volume to prevent the elusive southpaw from establishing his rhythm. Verhoeven also simulated Usyk's attributes by alternating six-round sparring blocks between two different southpaws: Moses Golola for heavyweight power and James Branch for rapid hand speed. Despite the game plan working effectively through the middle rounds, open scoring revealed that the judges had the bout tied after Round 8. Prompted by his corner to increase aggression, Verhoeven committed a tactical error by lunging forward on a straight path, directly into a precise counter uppercut from Usyk. Verhoeven acknowledged this lapse with sharp self-criticism, noting he despises relying on sheer toughness instead of disciplined execution. Endurance Protocols, Joint Longevity, and Emotional Processing (67:53) Verhoeven attributes his ability to maintain high output at 260 pounds to specialized endurance regimens rather than heavy maximal lifting. His strength and conditioning features 35-to-40-minute, high-volume full-body workouts three times weekly, with sets progressing from 20 to 24 repetitions on short 30-second rest intervals. To preserve his joints after undergoing surgical repair for an ACL tear and a bucket-handle meniscus tear three years prior, Verhoeven trains on an anti-gravity treadmill using pressurized unloading to execute interval and 60-minute endurance runs without joint trauma. His physical maintenance routine incorporates saunas, cold plunges, red light therapy, hyperbaric oxygen, and regenerative medicine. Alongside physical preservation, the discussion addressed the mental burden of elite athletics. Verhoeven candidly admitted that he spent years channeling severe emotional grief—including the loss of his father and the recent passing of his mother during fight camp—directly into combat fuel. While this mindset fueled title defenses against opponents like Jamal Ben Saddik, Verhoeven recognized that suppressing grief is destructive in everyday life, leading him to deliberately confront his grief outside the gym. Fighter Economics, Promotional Shifts, and Legacy Matchmaking (25:40) As a free agent in the final phase of his fighting career, Verhoeven evaluates opportunities strictly through the lenses of financial reward and legacy. While exploratory talks with the UFC occurred—including a potential matchup against Derrick Lewis—Verhoeven dismissed transitioning to the organization because standard purse offers lagged behind the earnings available in high-level boxing. Both speakers credited major financial entrants, particularly Saudi-backed initiatives led by Turki Alalshikh, with disrupting promotional monopolization, accelerating fights that previously languished in negotiations, and providing fighters alternative negotiating leverage outside rigid multi-fight agreements. Looking to the future, Verhoeven views an immediate rematch with Usyk at an iconic venue such as Madison Square Garden or Las Vegas as the most compelling narrative remaining. Although alternative paths include crossover bouts or a potential Anthony Joshua fight, Verhoeven emphasized that outside a blockbuster between Joshua and Tyson Fury, a second Usyk clash remains the premier fight to resolve unfinished business. Verhoeven remains focused on securing an immediate boxing rematch with Usyk while balancing an emerging film career alongside actors like Jason Statham. However, any rematch remains contingent on complex promoter negotiations, sanctioning body mandates, and Usyk's willingness to re-engage rather than pursue alternate veterans like Deontay Wilder.

在《JRE MMA Show》第183期中，长期统治踢拳重量级的Rico Verhoeven与Joe Rogan探讨了其跨界对决Oleksandr Usyk所引发的争议判罚与提前叫停，剖析了从站立踢拳转向职业拳击的战术重塑与体能支撑机制。访谈同时揭示了中东资本推动下格斗商业版图的结构性重组，阐述了选手权益议价、竞技判罚制度改革以及从高危擂台向影视演艺平稳过渡的长远考量。 乌西克之战判罚争议与打分机制弊端 (0:13) Rico Verhoeven以仅有一场职业拳击履历的背景，在埃及吉萨金字塔前跨界对决重量级霸主Oleksandr Usyk。Joe Rogan在节目中坚持认为Verhoeven在比赛中掌控了约10个回合的场面优势，并指责裁判给出的胶着比分与第11回合末的提前叫停是重大误判甚至涉及腐败。Verhoeven透露，前8回合结束后公布的公开计分（Open Scoring）显示双方战平，其教练Peter Fury随即在第9回合指令其扩大攻势，但这导致他直线突进时不慎吃到了Usyk的反击上勾拳。Verhoeven的团队赛后就裁判在回合铃响后被击中叫停、且医疗评估未显示脑震荡等违规迹象提起正式申诉，委员会官员虽私下认同其质疑，却仍维持原判。 针对搏击判罚的不透明性，Verhoeven与Rogan提出必须改革现行体制。他们指出足球等主流运动已全面引入视频助理裁判（VAR）进行即时纠错，而关乎拳手健康与职业生涯的搏击运动却仍依赖封闭裁决。两人提议应借鉴Glory踢拳将3人裁判团扩充至5人以稀释个别误判，或引入由退役拳手、教练及解说员组成的专家团数字打分机制，杜绝因赛事推广方利益驱动而产生的无意识偏见。 针对乌西克的战术设计与大级别耐力体系 (40:03) 为了破解Usyk极具统治力的反架（southpaw）技术，Verhoeven在教练Peter Fury指导下进行了为期半年的战术改造。针对传统正架拳手常习惯性向自身右侧移动而落入左撇子重拳攻击范围的误区，Verhoeven团队制定了持续向左环绕步、规避Usyk强侧的策略，并利用自身260磅的原生体重在近身内线实施压迫与围堵，切断Usyk的外线步法。Verhoeven在实战中采取多拳组合进攻，通过前三四拳封阻视线与拉近距离，使后续落点精准杀伤对手躯干。此外，他彻底改变了踢拳生涯为了防守低扫踢而保持的正向站姿（square stance），将其重构为职业拳击标准的侧向站姿（side-on stance）。 面对外界对260磅大级别选手能否打满12回合的质疑，Verhoeven阐述了其以耐力为核心的体能哲学。他摒弃了大重量卧推，每周进行三次时长35至40分钟的高容量全身训练，每组动作从20次递增至临战期的24次，组间间歇仅30秒。为了应对此前膝关节前交叉韧带（ACL）撕裂及桶柄状半月板损伤缝合手术后的磨损，他长期使用气压反重力跑步机减轻冲击，并结合红光疗法、高压氧舱与冷水浸泡，维持高强度间歇跑与1小时长跑能力，打破了重量级选手无法长效输出体能的固有认知。 选手自由身运作、商业重构与二番战博弈 (25:40) 在清空Glory踢拳重量级并放弃金腰带后，Verhoeven以自由球员身份探索跨界可能。他曾与UFC就对阵Derrick Lewis展开初步谈判，但因UFC提供的出场费过低而断然拒绝，直言不愿在经济收益上倒退。Verhoeven透露，在敲定Usyk之战前两周，他曾收到对战Francis Ngannou的高薪合同，但为了信守对沙特综合娱乐总局主席Turki Alalshikh的承诺并追求更具历史意义的拳击正统世界头衔，他毅然选择了Usyk。 Rogan与Verhoeven高度肯定了Turki Alalshikh等中东资本对传统推广体制僵局的打破，认为高额报酬拉高了行业基准，并赋予顶级选手在UFC垄断之外的议价筹码。谈及未来规划，尽管传闻Usyk可能与40岁的Deontay Wilder交锋，但两人均认为Wilder已非巅峰状态，而Verhoeven与Usyk在麦迪逊广场花园或拉斯维加斯上演“现实版洛奇”的二番战才是当下最具商业号召力与悬念的对决。 情感创伤化解、赛规保护与跨界影视发展 (77:05) Verhoeven坦承过去长期将生活中的重大情感创伤转化为擂台搏杀的攻击动能，包括在对阵Jamal Ben Saddik前夕经历父亲去世，以及在本次金字塔备战期间经历母亲离世。他反思指出，压抑悲伤并将其当作竞技燃料对于场外生活与人际关系并不健康，近期他已开始正视并主动面对哀伤。在运动损伤防护层面，两人探讨了低扫踢与斜向踩膝（oblique kick）对膝盖韧带的毁灭性破坏，并结合Tom Aspinall遭受Ciryl Gane严重插眼需经历两次手术的惨烈案例，呼吁UFC改革平掌手套设计，推行预弯曲手套或指套防护结构。 随着竞技生涯步入后期，Verhoeven积极开拓好莱坞演艺道路，先后出演《威龙杀阵》（Road House）与《贼巢2》（Den of Thieves 2），并与Jason Statham、Dave Bautista及Jake Gyllenhaal等影星合作。他坚持在拍戏与长达4个月的封闭拳赛备战期之间设立严格边界，并以Bautista成功摆脱“打手”刻板印象转型性格演员为例，强调将真实情绪投射于大银幕，为其退役转型提供了可持续的职业路径。 对话全景展现了一位统治踢拳十余年的传奇运动员跨界顶级职业拳击的技术蜕变与行业洞察。然而，关于Verhoeven与Usyk的二番战能否最终成行，仍取决于赛事推广方的商业诉求以及Usyk在职业生涯暮期的对手抉择；同时，拳击判罚透明化改革与MMA手套护具的安全性迭代，在现有行业体制的惯性下依然面临巨大的阻力与不确定性。

## Background 该视频由 YouTube 频道 PowerfulJRE 于 2026 年 8 月 24 日发布。节目简介显示，主持人乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与集踢拳传奇霸主、职业拳击手及综合格斗家于一身的里科·范霍文（Rico Verhoeven）围坐长谈，围绕其格斗生涯展开深度对话。 ## TL;DR 节目核心聚焦于范霍文跨界对决重量级无可争议世界拳王奥列克桑德尔·乌西克（Oleksandr Usyk）的震撼一战，两人深入剖析了比赛的争议性叫停、裁判计分弊病以及促成二番战的强烈呼声。范霍文详述了在名帅彼得·富里指导下耗时半年重塑站姿与肌肉记忆的纯拳击转型历程，并动情回顾了备战期间痛失母亲、最终在埃及金字塔前完成三十年宿命闭环的心路历程。此外，对话还广泛探讨了沙特资本对职业搏击格局的颠覆、踢拳在北美市场的推广困局、卡夫踢与膝部侧踢的技术演进与致伤风险，以及范霍文携手杰森·斯坦森进军好莱坞银幕的未来规划。 ## Atmosphere & style 整期对话兼具顶级格斗行家的硬核技术拆解与多年挚友重聚的热络温情，气氛在高昂亢奋与深沉动容之间张弛有度。当声讨裁判判罚的不公与体制腐败时，罗根情绪激昂、言辞辛辣；而在谈及至亲离世、心智淬炼与追求卓越的心理代价时，范霍文展现出极其冷静、谦逊且真挚的冠军气度。整场播客给听众带来一种沉浸于世界顶峰擂台博弈幕后、见证传奇斗士从肉体折磨走向人格成熟的强烈共鸣感。 ## Bulletin - [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1s) 踢拳重量级霸主里科·范霍文在转战职业拳击迎战统一重量级拳王奥列克桑德尔·乌西克时展现出惊人统治力，但因裁判在第十一回合铃响后的争议停赛及争议比分告负，官方申诉虽承认执裁程序不当却未推翻结果。 - [25:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1546s) 范霍文已正式放弃 GLORY 金腰带成为自由人，在彼得·富里指导下转型纯拳击，沙特娱乐总局主席图尔基·阿拉尔希赫赛后曾表态推动二番战，但乌西克团队动向目前倾向于避战二番战而考虑对决维尔德。 - [01:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=106s) 针对职业格斗执裁公信力危机，乔·罗根与范霍文主张推广 GLORY 式的 5 人裁判制并引入专业评审专家团与 App 实时公开打分，以科技和多裁判机制规避业务无能与商业偏袒。 - [01:22:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4964s) 除拳击舞台外，范霍文正跨界拓展好莱坞影视事业，出演了《贼巢 2》与《新威龙杀手》，并透露曾拒绝 UFC 与德里克·刘易斯的低报酬撮合，强调纯拳击不仅艺术性与容错率更高，更具备顶级商业回报。 ## Key takeaways - [01:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=106s) 范霍文在与乌西克的跨界大战中打满十余回合并几乎掌控局面，但裁判在回合铃响后叫停比赛且场边计分卡出现不可思议的平局偏颇，引发外界对执裁无能及暗箱操作的强烈谴责。 - [04:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=279s) 现行格斗上诉机制存在重大缺陷，即便官方复核承认裁判在铃响后违规叫停且医生确认拳手无脑震荡，既定比赛结果依然拒绝被推翻。 - [33:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=2019s) 为提高打分公正性，建议将传统 3 人计分裁判扩充至 5 人制（如 GLORY），并建立退役名宿、资深教练组成的独立 App 在线打分公开系统以稀释个别盲目判罚。 - [12:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=768s) 好莱坞动作影星杰森·斯坦森是促成范霍文跨界拳击的核心引荐人，后因安东尼·约书亚在非洲遭遇车祸重创，促使范霍文团队直接将目标转向对决乌西克。 - [29:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1757s) 开放式计分系统（Open Scoring）直接反噬了战术执行：在第八回合得知官方竟打成平手后，范霍文被迫放弃外围控场强行压迫，导致被对手迎面击中致命上勾拳。 - [39:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=2366s) 彼得·富里团队针对左撇子乌西克制定了反常规战术：坚决向左侧绕移规避后手强拳，前 3 至 4 拳作为视线掩护，在出到第 6、7 拳时近身压迫并重击腹部。 - [01:04:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3844s) 从踢拳防扫踢的“正身站姿”彻底蜕变为纯拳击的“侧向站架”，范霍文耗费了整整六个月封闭集训才将肌肉记忆完全重构为无意识本能。 - [55:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3340s) 在埃及金字塔脚下举办室外重量级大战促成了范霍文人生宿命的闭环：其母亲在备战期离世，清理遗物时发现母亲三十年前曾于完全相同的位置拍照留念。 - [01:09:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4163s) 范霍文的体能哲学专注于高次数、短间歇（30秒）全身耐力循环，避免增加消耗过多氧气的无用块状死肌肉，并利用减重气囊跑步机规避膝关节冲击磨损。 - [01:18:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4706s) 职业格斗家面临极大的心理健康与退役转型挑战：范霍文反思以往习惯于将亲人离世等情绪创伤压抑为肉体折磨充当擂台燃料，如今正通过影视表演学习接纳与感受真实情感。 - [01:28:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5292s) UFC 与范霍文洽谈对决德里克·刘易斯最终告吹，核心在于 UFC 严苛固化的薪酬体系与沙特资本重金打造的职业拳击跨界天价出场费存在不可逾越的鸿沟。 - [01:29:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5363s) MMA 现行平直手套迫使拳手掌面自然张开导致频繁插眼（如阿斯皮纳尔遭受双眼手术），亟需换用特雷弗·惠特曼研发的带有预弯曲弧度的防插眼手套。 - [01:36:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5808s) 沙特娱乐总局主席图尔基·阿拉尔希赫打破传统推广人门派壁垒，凭借巨额奖金池直接促成跨界超级大战，深刻重塑了当代拳击与综合格斗的薪资天花板。 - [01:45:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=6340s) 荷兰踢拳长盛不衰源于其极小的国土面积形成了极高频的跨拳馆实战与技术共享，并较早将泰拳内围与欧式组合拳融合且实现了持证执教的行业正规化。 - [01:54:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=6897s) 站立格斗推广的死穴在于缺乏立体叙事包装：GLORY 长期仅执着于硬核对决，忽视了对拳手日常生活、家庭羁绊等人性化故事的挖掘，难以打入北美主流市场。 - [02:02:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7378s) 卡夫踢（小腿低扫）彻底摧毁了传统将重心深压前腿的拳击站架，但因踢中膝盖骨极易导致自身断腿，且直接踹击膝关节正前方的侧踢与斜踢更是不可逆的“职业终结技”。 - [02:12:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7924s) 相比踢拳 5 个回合容错率极低的短兵相接，拳击拥有 12 个回合的博弈纵深，允许顶级高手在场内绘制战术杰作，是一门更细腻纯粹的高级艺术。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:01](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1s) 重聚与震撼世界的跨界对决 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与里科·范霍文（Rico Verhoeven）在录播间热络寒暄，试图回忆两人上一次坐下来录节目到底过去了多久。他们算了算，似乎是在 2016 或 2017 年的 JRE MMA 第 71 期，距今已将近十年之久。两人打趣说，可能是在格斗生涯里脑袋挨了太多拳头，导致记忆都有点模糊了。然而寒暄过后，罗根立刻将话题转向了全格斗界震动的焦点——范霍文与重量级拳王奥列克桑德尔·乌西克（Oleksandr Usyk）之间那场不可思议的较量。 罗根直言，范霍文对战乌西克的表现是他这辈子见过的最疯狂的场面之一。在此之前，范霍文职业拳击生涯仅打过一场比赛，尽管他练拳击已有十五年之久，但他真正的身份是公认的踢拳（Kickboxing）历史最佳选手之一。面对毫无争议处于重量级拳击历史最伟大对话中的乌西克，跨界作战的范霍文展现出了难以置信的统治力。罗根甚至激动地表示，在他看来范霍文几乎拿下了整整十个回合，而场边裁判给出的比分（有的判平局，有的仅判里科领先一回合）简直令人匪夷所思。罗根强调，如果那场比赛最终打到裁判判定并且判定里科输掉，那完全就是一场“犯罪”。 - **对决背景**：里科·范霍文此前仅有 1 场职业拳击比赛记录，但已在踢拳领域统治重量级长达十年。 - **历史地位**：乌西克被公认为当今乃至历史上最优秀的重量级拳王之一。 - **裁判分歧**：场边计分卡极为接近（一位裁判判里科领先 1 回合，其他裁判判平），引发了外界对裁判水准的强烈质疑。 --- ### [01:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=106s) 争议性停赛与裁判系统的深层弊病 里科坦言，直面这种结果非常痛苦。他并不害怕输掉比赛，竞技体育中胜负乃兵家常事，但那场比赛的叫停和判决让他感到极度不公（"It felt so injust"）。罗根也完全赞同这种看法，认为那次叫停完全不合常理，裁判仿佛是在故意找借口终止比赛。无论是作为解说员的罗根，还是其他观赛的职业拳手与专业评论员，大家看到的比赛过程与最终计分卡所呈现的内容形成了荒谬的割裂。 两人深入剖析了裁判行业的问题。罗根指出，比贪腐更可怕的是“业务上的无能”（incompetence）。在拳手职业生涯最关键的一役中，如果交由根本不懂格斗的技术外行来决定胜负，对拼命作战的选手是极大的伤害。罗根提到了踢拳赛事 GLORY 的计分机制，该组织采用 5 位计分裁判，而不是传统的三人制。五名裁判能在很大程度上稀释低级失误的概率，因为即使其中有一两个人打偏，剩下的多数人依然能够纠正偏差。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 判罚机制对比 accDescr: 对比传统三人裁判制与五人裁判制及视频回放纠错机制的容错率差异 subgraph Conventional["传统三人裁判制 (Boxing / MMA)"] C1["3名裁判计分"] --> C2{"若2人失误/误判"} C2 --> C3["直接导致争议判决 (错误胜出)"] end subgraph Improved["改进型裁判机制 (GLORY / 现代科技)"] I1["5名裁判计分"] --> I2{"少数人出现误判"} I2 --> I3["多数正确打分保障公正"] I4["VAR / 视频回放复核"] --> I5["当场迅速推翻场上误判"] end ``` - **五人计分制优势**：GLORY 采用 5 名裁判打分，相比 3 人体制能更有效避免极少数裁判失误对全局产生决定性影响。 - **无能甚于腐败**：裁判的不专业会直接抹杀运动员十余年如一日的巅峰统治与付出。 - **长期统治不易**：罗根提到，即便在 UFC 等顶级赛事中，重量级冠军往往卫冕一两场就会易主，而范霍文在经历与贾马尔·本·萨迪克（Jamal Ben Saddik）等强敌的多次血战后，依然守擂十年，展现了超凡的稳定性。 --- ### [04:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=279s) 误判上诉的死胡同与科技复核的必要性 里科将格斗比赛的执裁与刚落幕的足球世界杯进行了对比。在足球等现代主流运动中，虽然主裁判作为人类难免会看漏或看错，但赛事引入了 VAR（视频助理裁判）等多视角监控系统，多位裁判能根据规则当场纠正误判，迅速做出公正裁决。而在格斗运动中，拳手是将健康和生命置于险地，公众和运动员都极其渴求透明度。但现实情况是，即便场上主裁判做出了重大错误决定，现行体制也缺乏在毫秒间推翻误判的即时机制。 虽然罗根提到在综合格斗（MMA）中，有时场上裁判靠得极近，能看到拳手翻白眼或神情呆滞等镜头捕捉不到的细微征兆，但里科透露了他的上诉细节：团队针对叫停提出了正式申诉。在官方复核中，管理机构全盘承认里科方指出的事实是正确的——比赛确实是在“回合结束铃声响过之后”被裁判叫停的；赛后医生第一时间上前检查，里科神志清晰，没有任何脑震荡症状。然而荒唐的是，尽管官方在每一个细节上都承认“你们是对的”，他们最终却依然拒绝推翻比赛结果。 - **透明度呼吁**：现代体育依赖视频复核纠错，格斗界却极度抗拒现场推翻场上裁判的误判。 - **申诉获事实认可**：官方调查承认裁判在铃响后叫停属于不当操作，且赛后医学检查证明里科并未受创失控。 - **结果未获更改**：即便判定事实成立，既定结果仍未被推翻，若回到有争议的计分卡打分，可能引发更大的争议乃至不公平判罚。 --- ### [07:51](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=471s) 拒绝复赛与真实的《洛奇》故事 罗根指出，这场比赛是乌西克升级进入重量级以来打得最为焦灼、最为艰难的一场恶战，然而赛后乌西克团队却对两人的二番战避而不谈，这显得极其反常。原本在赛前，乌西克团队规划的路线是先打范霍文，接着迎战丹尼尔·杜布瓦（Daniel Dubois）与法比奥·沃德利（Fabio Wardley）之间的胜者，最后再与泰森·富里（Tyson Fury）进行终极较量。但在与范霍文打完后，这些宏大规划几乎都被搁置，团队反而转向呼吁对战德昂泰·维尔德（Deontay Wilder）。 里科平静地分析道，乌西克在这场对决中切身体会到了远远超出预期的艰难，因此选择走另一条阻力更小的路线。里科强调，自己渴望二番战绝不仅仅是为了打一场复赛，而是因为这场二番战背后有着绝佳的故事线——这是一桩“未竟的事业”（unfinished business）。罗根赞同这是当今格斗界最纯粹、最真实的“活生生《洛奇》（Rocky）故事”。维尔德虽是重量级史上最恐怖的重炮手之一，但已年届四十，状态早非 2019 年之勇；而全盛时期的踢拳霸王与拳击顶峰的乌西克再战一场，才是全球拳迷真正翘首以盼的世纪史诗。 - **路线骤变**：乌西克团队放弃了对阵杜布瓦/沃德利胜者及富里的原定计划，转向挑选年满 40 岁且状态下滑的维尔德。 - **二番战号召力**：范霍文正处于自己职业生涯的“秋季甚至冬季”，他只希望参与具有重大意义、能让观众血脉偾张的巅峰战役。 - **现实版《洛奇》**：跨界挑战者几乎将无可匹敌的统一拳王逼入绝境，二番战具备了职业格斗中极其罕见的商业叙事张力与悬念。 ### [10:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=605s) 体型差距与疯狂体能：打破质疑的战术执行 乔·罗根感叹里科·范霍文站在拳台上的身形实在过于庞大。乌西克本质上是一名升重上来的巡洋舰级（Cruiserweight）拳手，如果刻意减重，乌西克完全能轻松压回巡洋舰级。相比之下，里科体格有着绝对优势。罗根指出，里科不仅体型远胜对手，更具备顶尖的世界冠军级大赛经验，在场上显得极其从容镇定。战局进行到第三、四、五回合时，里科展现出的沉着甚至让罗根觉得他真有可能创造奇迹。 当时的比赛解说员一直在质疑：“里科一直在大量移动、做假动作，但他究竟能坚持多久？”罗根对此嗤之以鼻，因为解说员根本不了解里科的体能储备。里科笑着回应，现场只有了解踢拳赛事 GLORY 的解说员（以及现场观战的阿里斯泰尔·欧沃瑞姆）才清楚他的底细。里科直言自己“基本就住在拳馆里”，对格斗充满狂热，绝不可能在体能上输给任何人。罗根补充道，在 260 磅的巨汉中，几乎没有人能像里科这样自始至终保持如此疯狂的输出节奏，解说员质疑他的体能储备完全是外行看热闹。 - **体格对冲**：乌西克为升级作战的巡洋舰级拳手，而里科是常年保持在 260 磅左右的天然重量级巨汉。 - **体能神话**：里科以日复一日的高强度拳馆训练著称，其高频率移动与假动作输出打消了外界对他体能崩溃的预测。 --- ### [11:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=694s) 争议性停赛：究竟是裁判无能还是资本保驾？ 话题不可避免地转向了比赛的争议终结。虽然乌西克确实抓住了机会打出重击重创了里科，但罗根与里科一致认为裁判的停赛过早。当时里科并未失去战斗能力，而且作为一场势均力敌、甚至里科此前一路领先的世界冠军赛，裁判必须给予选手逆境翻盘的机会。 里科提出一个灵魂质问：“如果把局势反过来，陷入危险的是乌西克，他们会叫停吗？”罗根斩钉截铁地回答：“绝对不可能。”罗根直言这要么是业务无能，要么就是暗箱操纵，而他更倾向于后者。拳击界的裁判和推广人需要维护摇钱树，乌西克是重量级头号吸金巨星；拳击体制绝不希望看到一个从踢拳界跨界而来的外来者，在个人的职业拳击首秀中打破行业垄断，上演“拳击历史上最大的冷门”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 拳击体制与争议停赛逻辑 accDescr: 展示跨界爆冷与拳击商业利益冲突导致争议判罚的因果链条 subgraph 赛场态势 A["里科大比分领先"] --> B["乌西克打出反击重击"] B --> C["裁判过早终止比赛"] end subgraph 利益冲突 D["职业拳击固有利益链"] --> E["乌西克：重量级顶级招牌"] F["跨界选手爆冷夺冠"] --> G["破坏拳击行业商业叙事"] end C -.->|体制倾向保护| E G -.->|体制极力规避| C ``` --- ### [12:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=768s) 战术博弈与杰森·斯坦森的跨界引荐 在拆解战术时，里科表示所有传统重量级拳击手面对乌西克时都犯了一个致命错误——试图在纯拳击技术上压制一位更轻、更快、更讲究技巧的前巡洋舰级拳手，这根本不切实际。里科团队设计了一套乌西克职业生涯从未见过的打法体系，充分利用自身压迫感与非传统拳击节奏撕扯防线。 谈到这场跨界战的起源，里科透露了一个离奇的幕后故事。当时著名动作影星杰森·斯坦森（Jason Statham）在拉斯维加斯现场观看拳赛，两人通过短信热聊。斯坦森此前曾亲临阿姆斯特丹观看里科的八人锦标赛，深知其实力，于是极力劝说里科：“兄弟，你应该去打职业拳击，去把那些家伙干掉！”里科半开玩笑地答应让他去试水引荐。 第二天清晨，里科正在阿姆斯特丹的跑步机上晨跑，斯坦森的电话突然打来，兴奋地大喊：“听着，我把你的名字报上去了，把你的比赛视频给他们看了，他们全都疯了！他们想要你！”里科当场跳下跑步机，紧接着就接到了赛事方的正式接洽电话。 - **传统败局**：传统重量级拳手试图与技术更细腻、速度更快的乌西克比拼点数与精细拳法，最终均陷入劣势。 - **好莱坞红娘**：杰森·斯坦森作为里科的多年好友，在拉斯维加斯向拳击资本核心圈力荐里科，促成了最初的跨界对话。 --- ### [15:10](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=910s) 从对阵约书亚到变故：片场备战与非洲车祸 主办方最初向里科开出的对决人选并不是乌西克，而是英国重量级巨星安东尼·约书亚（Anthony Joshua）。里科欣然接受，然而当时他正身处《威龙杀阵2》（Road House 2）电影剧组的拍摄现场。为了兼顾拍戏与备战，他的教练直接进驻片场，趁着镜头切换和拍摄间隙在场地旁帮他打靶训练。 原本计划在二月开战，里科大概有 10 周备战期。但中途约书亚收到了与杰克·保罗（Jake Paul）交手的天价合同，决定先打杰克·保罗再战里科，两人的比赛因而顺延至三月。里科乐于接受延期，因为这能给他更充裕的时间完成从踢拳到拳击站姿及技术的彻底转型。然而，年底突发灾难——安东尼·约书亚在非洲遭遇严重车祸，事故不幸导致约书亚的两位好友丧生，整场比赛计划瞬间化为泡影。 - **多线程运转**：拍摄《威龙杀阵2》期间，里科利用剧组拍摄间歇由专属教练协助进行打靶和体能强化。 - **档期波折**：约书亚因插队对阵杰克·保罗将战期推迟至三月，随后因非洲致命车祸导致比赛彻底搁浅。 --- ### [17:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1061s) 颠覆拳坛的构想：双领域无可争议冠军的巅峰对决 约书亚的退赛让局势陷入僵局。里科当时已在西班牙展开封闭高强度训练营，约书亚的推广人埃迪·赫恩（Eddie Hearn）短期内无法确认回归时间。面对“继续等待还是另寻对手”的选择，里科团队抛出了一个大胆的狂想：“为什么不打乌西克？” 里科看中了这背后的终极故事线——“踢拳无可争议冠军 vs 拳击无可争议冠军”。当里科拨通电话向主办方高层阐述这个提案时，电话那头陷入了死一般的沉寂。里科一度以为自己把事情搞砸了，结果对方突然爆发出一声高呼：“我们太喜欢这个点子了！”在图尔基·阿尔·谢赫阁下（Turki Alalshikh）的全力撮合下，团队与乌西克取得联系，乌西克本人也欣然接受了跳出拳击常规圈子的挑战。 两周后，双方仅仅通过一分钟的 FaceTime 视频通话便敲定了所有细节。当赛事官宣这不仅是一场跨界超级战、更是争夺世界拳王金腰带的正规冠军赛时，传统拳击界一片哗然，抨击这完全不可理喻。里科则带着必胜信念准备给世界一记惊雷。正如罗根所言，纯拳击迷往往傲慢地无视踢拳与综合格斗的水平，根本不知道站在他们面前的是一个拥有数十年打击技巅峰造诣的站立格斗王者。 - **构想诞生**：在西班牙训练期间，里科主动提出由踢拳无可争议王者对话拳击无可争议王者的设想。 - **幕后推手**：沙特娱乐总局主席图尔基·阿尔·谢赫阁下促成对决落地，乌西克放弃众多常规拳手邀约接下挑战。 - **纯拳击迷的偏见**：传统拳击受众大多排斥 MMA 和踢拳，低估了跨界王者的打击功底与战术执行力。 ### [19:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1193s) 踢拳在北美市场的困境与巨星塑造的密码 里科·范霍文（Rico Verhoeven）谈到，世界拳击理事会（WBC）本身设有泰拳部门，因此认可他在踢拳界无可争议的成就并为其安排世界拳击头衔战是顺理成章的，关键只在于如何向大众讲清楚这段背景。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）随即表达了他作为死忠格斗迷多年以来的巨大困惑与抓狂：职业拳击在美国如日中天，综合格斗（MMA）更是现象级爆火，但作为最纯粹站立打击技的踢拳在北美却近乎销声匿迹，没有任何成规模的大型联赛。罗根直言这完全违背常理，因为绝大多数休闲 MMA 观众最痴迷的就是站立对攻，一旦比赛进入地面缠斗，现场往往嘘声四起。 针对里科猜测“或许美国观众只愿看本土选手夺冠”的说法，罗根给出了坚决的反驳。在当今 UFC 赛场上，纯正的美国本土冠军屈指可数，而最具票房号召力的超级巨星恰恰是像亚历克斯·佩雷拉（Alex Pereira）这样完全不讲英语、仅说葡萄牙语与原住民部落语言的巴西悍将，或是来自达吉斯坦的伊斯兰姆·马哈切夫（Islam Makhachev）。罗根指出，格斗迷真正唯一在乎的标准只有一条：“你到底是不是这个星球上最狠的人（baddest motherfucker on earth）。” 罗根由衷希望运作 UFC 的母公司 Zuffa 能够像涉足拳击一样强势接管踢拳或泰拳赛道。他坚信踢拳和泰拳是全世界最精彩刺激的站立格斗形式，其节奏的狂暴混乱、残酷打击与极高技术含量的结合无可匹敌。罗根回忆道，正因为自己长期紧跟 Glory 踢拳赛事，在佩雷拉最初跨界踏入 UFC 时，他就已经向所有人断言“大家全完蛋了，你们根本不懂这家伙有多与众不同”。如果能有顶级商业力量撬动这块巨大的处女地，踢拳在美洲的市场潜力将不可估量。 --- ### [22:27](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1347s) 叙事的力量：UFC宣传机器与 Glory 的历史遗憾 两位嘉宾深入探讨了赛事推广的核心竞争力——“叙事（Storytelling）”。里科坦言，Glory 在选手个人形象塑造与故事挖掘上存在明显短板，赛事不仅需要展现擂台上出拳踢腿的技术，更需要向观众交代选手的成长背景、生活原貌以及战袍之下的真实人格。罗根对此深表赞同，并高度称赞了 UFC 堪称典范的媒体宣传机器。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: UFC格斗周内容宣发流水线 accDescr: 展示UFC如何通过多档精品视频节目层层铺垫比赛热度并引发观众共情 subgraph UFC宣发飞轮 ["UFC 赛前深度内容矩阵"] A["周一上线: 《Embedded》实录"] --> B["多维记录: 训练/减重桑拿/饮食日常"] B --> C["情感投射: 呈现真实立体的选手性格"] C --> D["赛前一小时大片: 《Countdown》倒计时"] D --> E["家庭羁绊与高规格采访"] end subgraph 商业转化 ["受众情绪与票房变现"] E --> F["观众极度兴奋与情感共鸣"] F --> G["撬动付费点播与赛事爆发"] end ``` 罗根详细拆解了 UFC 的内容宣发链条：每逢重磅大战前夕，UFC 会从周一清晨开始在 YouTube 连续释出《Embedded》纪实短片，全景记录选手备战、称重桑拿、饮食以及媒体活动，让观众身临其境；紧接着是一小时高规格制作的《Countdown》倒计时特别节目，深入拳手的家庭与情感羁绊。这种全方位的内容烘托能彻底点燃格斗迷的付费欲望。 回顾历史，Glory 曾通过 Spike TV 进军北美主流市场，并在洛杉矶举办过轰动一时的“终极幸存者（Last Man Standing）”锦标赛。罗根当时亲临现场，体验极佳，但由于缺乏持续有效的叙事包装，热潮最终未能全面扎根美国，赛事重心在随后几年不得不重新收缩回荷兰等欧洲大本营。 --- ### [24:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1479s) 赛制之争：擂台 vs 八角笼与 ONE FC 的崛起 话题随后转向亚洲格斗组织 ONE Championship（ONE FC）。罗根赞赏其在中小级别踢拳和泰拳上的成功运营，尤其是大量吸纳了来自泰国与日本的顶级打击高手，并通过佩戴 4 盎司 MMA 分指手套在笼内进行泰拳对决，带来了极具冲击力的视觉效果。 对于比赛场地的选择，里科与罗根展开了探讨并达成共识：传统的围绳四角擂台（Ring）对于纯站立打击而言体验更佳。罗根分析道： - 八角笼的铁网存在诸多对打法产生扭曲的物理特性，在综合格斗中，选手常借由背靠铁网借力爬起，或是利用笼边压迫完成抱摔； - 相比之下，传统围绳擂台难以借力防摔，在纯粹的拳腿交锋中更加干净分明，战术逻辑也更加纯粹。 --- ### [25:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1546s) 放弃金腰带、涉足自由市场与争议的拳击之战 里科谈及自己近期的职业转折。作为长期统治 Glory 重量级并扫清该级别的霸主，他在仅有一场职业 MMA 比赛经验的情况下，毅然选择放弃 Glory 重量级金腰带成为自由人。他渴望参与当时掀起狂潮的跨界超级大战（Crossover events），以证明自己是“地表最强男人”之一，但由于与老东家管理层在战略方向上无法达成共识，双方最终分道扬镳。在转为自由拳手后，他曾与 UFC 展开实质性谈判，甚至外界一度盛传他将对决重量级重炮手德里克·刘易斯（Derrick Lewis），但随后一份极具诱惑力的高额跨界职业拳击报价促使他踏上了全新征程。 关于那场在沙特打响的焦点拳击战，里科透露自己的合同是一战结清，目前他依然是自由身。谈及赛后风波与争议叫停，里科还原了现场极具戏剧性的混乱场景： - 比赛被叫停后，沙特全权代表（“阁下”图尔基·阿拉尔希赫，Turki Alalshikh）第一时间直接跨入擂台对里科承诺：“你一定会和这家伙打二番战。” - 与此同时，刚刚因奥列克桑德尔·乌西克（Oleksandr Usyk）放弃头衔而转正的 WBC 重量级拳王阿吉特·卡巴耶尔（Agit Kabayel）也冲上擂台叫阵要求争夺冠军，场面瞬间陷入彻底的失控与混乱。 里科坦言，赛后自己用了整整六周时间平复心情才敢第一次回看比赛录像，因为裁判在回合结束铃声响起后的争议叫停至今仍令他感到剧痛与不解：“当时裁判到底想让我怎样？让我满场游走还是立刻出拳回击？”里科强调，在过去的踢拳世界冠军卫冕战中，自己曾多次深陷逆境、比分落后，但最终每一次都能完成翻盘逆转，“我永远不可能放弃”。罗根对此深表共鸣，指出拳击裁判完全不了解里科那恐怖的体能储备（Conditioning）与惊人的恢复速度，许多对手倾尽所有体能试图将里科击倒，最终却发现他依然坚挺如初，过早终止比赛完全是对他钢铁般意志与体能特质的无视。 ### [29:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1757s) 开放式计分下的心理拉锯与战术反噬 里科·范霍文（Rico Verhoeven）回顾了比赛最后时刻的判罚与心理变化。当时距离第十一回合结束仅剩几秒钟，他认为裁判完全应该清楚时间的紧迫性，凭借自己在格斗界积累的多年经验，哪怕再多给几秒钟，让双方进入第十二回合，对选手和全世界观众而言都会是一场极其精彩的决战。然而，由于比赛采用了开放式计分系统（Open Scoring），战局的走向在第八回合后发生了戏剧性扭转。在开放式计分规则下，每打完四个回合裁判就会公开当前比分。里科原本极度推崇这种规则，因为它能让选手清楚自己在场上的优劣势与处境，但当第八回合结束回到场角时，他的教练彼得·富里（Peter Fury）却神情严肃地告诉他：“听着，我们现在必须全力去赢下接下来的每一个回合。” 这句话让里科大为震惊：“我没听错吧？我明明感觉自己一直在掌控局面、赢下这些回合啊！”彼得·富里却告诉他，前八回合在计分卡上双方竟然是平手。甚至现场解说员听到这个打分时也感到匪夷所思。原本如果知道自己领先七八个回合，在体能出现消耗的最后两三个回合里，完全可以采取灵活游走、外围点刺的控场打法，哪怕丢掉一两个回合甚至打平，整体依然稳操胜券。但面对平局的比分，里科不得不被迫在第九回合继续疯狂压迫、强行进攻，这也为后来的意外埋下了致命伏笔。 - 开放式计分规则每四回合公布一次官方评分，直接改变了选手的战术策略。 - 前八回合结束后场上被打成平手，打乱了里科原有的体能分配与控场节奏。 ### [31:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1894s) 致命的上勾拳失误与骨子里的完美主义 在强行压迫进攻的过程中，里科迎面撞上了对手一记毁灭性的上勾拳。即使在赛后回想，这一幕依然让他感到无比煎熬与刺痛。里科表示自己必须在心态和为人上继续磨炼，因为他无法停止苛责自己犯下的那次失误——正是因为那个动作，才给对手和裁判留下了逆转局面的把柄。在整个备战训练营中，团队曾反复警告过他，直直冲进去挥拳极其危险，绝对不能这么做。然而在比赛最焦灼的瞬间，他还是鬼使神差地重复了这个错误。 里科坦言，真正让他抓狂的并不是对手那记上勾拳有多漂亮，而是自己对自身表现的极度苛求。“我不在乎他做得有多好，我只对自己负责，是我自己犯错送给了他们机会。”这让他联想到此前与贾迈勒·本·萨迪克（Jamal Ben Saddik）的那场恶战，当时他的眼睛被重创肿胀，赛后所有人都称赞他展现了永不放弃的铁血意志，但里科内心却只有自责。他认为自己拥有顶级的技术体系，本该依靠技术避免让自己陷入那种险境，根本不需要靠硬抗伤痛来证明坚韧。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）指出，正是这种将失误视作剧毒的心态才造就了他的伟大。里科苦笑着回忆，比赛结束后他像个大婴儿一样躲在酒店房间里痛哭，因为他感觉自己距离震撼全世界只有一步之遥。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 拳手复盘心理模型 accDescr: 展示里科·范霍文在比赛受挫后的极端自我归因思维模式。 subgraph 比赛事件与外界评价 A["赛场突发险境与挨击"] --> B["外界赞誉：展现坚韧斗志与铁血硬汉意志"] end subgraph 里科的自我归因逻辑 A --> C["自我苛责：绝对技术本应规避所有险境"] C --> D["归咎于自身低级失误"] D --> E["赛后极度痛苦与追求极致完美"] end ``` ### [33:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=2019s) 裁判打分的腐败争议与记分制度改革 谈到裁判的打分，乔·罗根难掩激动与愤怒。罗根表示作为里科的拳迷，他看比赛时一直悬着一颗心，到了第九、第十回合，他完全看不出奥列克桑德·乌西克（Oleksandr Usyk）有任何取胜的角度。当官方公布打分时，罗根甚至脱口大骂：“他们到底他妈在看什么比赛？”罗根直言，裁判的问题要么是纯粹的无能，要么就是暗箱腐败，甚至兼而有之。推广人往往希望乌西克获胜，因为这关系到后续对阵德昂泰·维尔德（Deontay Wilder）或泰森·富里（Tyson Fury）的巨额商业蛋糕。 里科向作为资深解说员与格斗专家的罗根请教，如何才能改善这项运动的打分透明度。罗根提出了具体的改革构想： - **扩充现场裁判人数**：借鉴 GLORY 踢拳的做法，将三名现场裁判增加至五名，以稀释个别盲目判罚的偏差。 - **引入专业评审专家团**：建立线上认证机制，邀请顶级教练、退役名宿和资深解说员组成专家团。 - **开发专属计分应用**：专家团在手机或平板 App 上同步独立打分，汇总出权威的集体专业意见，并向公众公开。 两人还讨论了乌西克接下来的动向。有传言称乌西克可能在十二月与德昂泰·维尔德交手，但目前尚未正式签约。罗根调侃道，乌西克将这场比赛称为自己的谢幕战，上一战险些翻船输给里科，如果想让他冒着晚节不保的风险再战一场，沙特娱乐总局主席图尔基·阿拉尔什赫（Turki Alalshikh）阁下必须得开出一张天文数字的巨额支票才行。 ### [36:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=2205s) 成为自由身：在纳干诺与乌西克之间的传奇抉择 打完这场震撼体坛的拳击战后，里科目前已成为自由选手（Free Agent），收到了全球各大搏击赛事的丰厚报价。当罗根询问关于他与弗朗西斯·纳干诺（Francis Ngannou）跨界大战的传闻时，里科透露了幕后秘辛。就在敲定乌西克大战的两周前，MVP 推广公司及相关组织曾找上门来，极力促成他与纳干诺进行一场 MMA 规则对决。对方不断加码开出天价合同，待遇极其诱人。 但里科最终选择遵从内心的传奇追求。他已事先向沙特主办方图尔基阁下与团队许下承诺，言出必行；更重要的是，作为一名统治级踢拳世界冠军，跨界直接争夺职业拳击世界重量级头衔的机会千载难逢，而与纳干诺的比赛未来随时都能发生。当罗根打趣地问他在拳击擂台上是否会克制不住本能想去踢乌西克几脚低扫或高扫时，里科大笑表示绝不可能。他解释称，自己在彼得·富里指导下同步练拳击已有十五年之久，早已建立起扎实的分离肌肉记忆与纯拳击习惯。虽然在训练馆练拳击与在擂台上直面史上最伟大的重量级拳王之间存在云泥之别，但纯粹的规则感早已融入他的骨髓。 ### [39:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=2366s) 针对乌西克的战术构想：破解左撇子难题 里科·范霍文（Rico Verhoeven）回忆起比赛进入第五或第六回合时的情景。当时对手不断用刺拳试探，里科则耐心地拍挡化解，同时打出反击。他在擂台上甚至暗自嘀咕并感到不可思议：“我难道在刺拳上压制了世界拳王吗？”场边的功勋教练丹尼斯（Dennis Krauweel）也大声向他喊话：“保持下去，你正在赢下这场比赛，别冒不必要的风险！”这种冷静控制节奏的策略让他在场面上牢牢占据主动。当乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）询问他是如何与知名教练彼得·富里（Peter Fury）一起制定比赛计划、寻找奥列克桑德尔·乌西克（Oleksandr Usyk）的破绽时，里科盛赞彼得·富里是行业内的战术大师。他们分析了乌西克以往的所有比赛，发现绝大多数正架拳手在面对左撇子（Southpaw）时都习惯向右侧移动，但这恰恰是迎面撞上左撇子的重拳后手；而彼得与里科制定的反向战术则是主动向左侧侧移，远离对方最具杀伤力的强侧后手，从而彻底打乱乌西克的反击节奏。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 破解左撇子拳手站位与距离战术流程 accDescr: 展现里科与彼得·富里针对左撇子乌西克制定的步法与近身组合拳施压策略 subgraph Step1 ["步法与站位调整"] A["面对左撇子拳手"] --> B["放弃常规向右移动<br/>避免撞入后手强拳"] B --> C["坚决向左侧绕移<br/>远离重炮火力线"] end subgraph Step2 ["距离压缩与出拳铺垫"] C --> D["不追求前两拳击中<br/>连续虚晃与高出拳量"] D --> E["出到第5、6拳时缩短距离<br/>封堵其快速移动"] end subgraph Step3 ["贴身肉搏施压"] E --> F["利用体型与吨位近身压迫（Smother）"] F --> G["重击腹部与内线发力"] end ``` - **破除固有习惯**：大部分拳手因习惯问题往往下意识向右侧移动以寻找右手重拳角度，但在对阵左撇子时，这种移动方式无异于直接把下巴送向对方的后手重炮。 - **体型与吨位优势的正确发挥**：乔·罗根指出，与泰森·富里（Tyson Fury）高长消瘦的体格不同，里科兼具庞大骨架、极高肌肉密度与强悍体能。里科通过压迫贴近，将这种体重与围度转化成了极具杀伤力的“压迫式近身缠斗”（Smothering）。 --- ### [42:43](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=2563s) “巨型洛马琴科”与连续打击战术 面对移动如飞、技术极其细腻的顶级拳王，里科深知重量级拳手传统的一两记单发重炮根本碰不到对方。乌西克在步伐和闪避上就像一个“巨型洛马琴科”（Giant Lomachenko），如果试图通过“A步骤”直接迎头重击，结局只能是一次次被对方飘逸的步伐戏耍。彼得·富里与里科制定的战术是准备好连续的“B、C、D步骤”——打出高密度的连续拳，哪怕前三四拳完全挥空打在空气中也毫不在意，重点是让对方视线被遮挡、注意力被牵扯。当拳出到第六甚至第七拳时，距离自然被压缩到内线，那时再全力将重拳狠狠砸进对方的身体。里科透露，自己在赛前曾公开扬言要“把对方的头打下来”，但这纯粹是心理战烟幕弹，他们真正的杀招是持续的高输出、近身压制与精准凶狠的腹部击打。 - **阶段性出拳逻辑**：前3至4拳作为测距与视线干扰，第5至6拳完成切角与近身，第7至8拳在内线施加真正的毁灭性重击。 - **身体击打策略**：通过封锁移动空间与贴靠施压，剥夺对方在开阔场地打迎击的技术优势，以连续的身体打击削耗其步伐机动性。 --- ### [44:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=2688s) 顶级陪练阵营与备战历程 里科在职业拳击界的积累并非一朝一夕。他曾长期与泰森·富里一同训练，并与阿吉特·卡巴耶尔（Agit Kabayel）以及彼得·富里的儿子休吉·富里（Hughie Fury）等欧洲顶级重量级名将切磋，积累了极其扎实的职业拳击底蕴。但在这次备战中最痛苦的挑战，是寻找能够高度模拟乌西克风格的高水平左撇子陪练。最终团队采取了“极端反差”的高强度实战组合：先由力量巨大、体型威猛的左撇子大级别拳手莫塞斯（Moses）打满前6个回合，体验超重炮的硬度；紧接着无缝换上体重约90公斤、出拳如疾风暴雨的左撇子詹姆斯·布兰奇（James Branch）继续打满6个回合。这种在实战中交替应对超大力量与超高频率的模式，里科整整进行了六个月的严酷打磨。这段经历让他跳脱出原本的踢拳舒适区，重新感受到了搏击世界的广阔。 - **拳击界精英人脉**：长期在彼得·富里战队受训，与泰森·富里、阿吉特·卡巴耶尔、休吉·富里等名将共同实战，打下了对抗纯拳击精英的底气。 - **针对性陪练配置**： - **大体量左撇子**：负责提供顶级重量级的压迫感与单发抗击打负荷。 - **轻量化高频左撇子（詹姆斯·布兰奇，约90kg）**：负责模拟乌西克极快的脚步移动、连续高速组合拳与换角速度。 --- ### [47:19](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=2839s) 踢拳章节落幕与二番战的呼声 在搏击界拼杀三十余载（自6岁起练武）的里科坦言，自己在踢拳领域的篇章已经圆满闭幕。罗根也赞同表示，如今踢拳界已没有任何一场比赛的分量能与他刚刚完成的跨界大战相提并论，传奇老将巴德·哈里（Badr Hari）等人的巅峰时代也早已过去。现年37岁的里科清晰地意识到自己正处于职业生涯的“冬季”，未来只会专注于轰动全球的大战。比赛刚一落幕，沙特娱乐总局主席图尔基·阿拉尔希赫（Turki Alalshikh）就当场走进八角笼/擂台，明确表态促成双方打二番战。罗根直言，外界普遍认为裁判的打分和比赛叫停让里科“吃了大亏”，但里科的表现远远超出了所有人的预期，这种争议反而让潜在的二番战极具商业价值。罗根追问幕后团队是否已经在推进复赛，并强调除了英格兰本土极具话题度的泰森·富里对阵安东尼·约书亚（Anthony Joshua）之外，里科的二番战绝对是当今世界重量级拳坛最具轰动效应的超级大战之一。 - **职业生涯新篇章**：37岁的里科正式确认将重心转向超级拳击跨界战，追求历史地位与商业价值并存的传奇对决。 - **高层介入与商业号召力**：沙特主导人格斗赛事掌门人图尔基·阿拉尔希赫在赛后立即提出二番战构想，各大顶级推广组织也纷纷抛出橄榄枝。 - **舆论声浪发酵**：由于第一场比赛判罚与终止时机引发巨大争议，车轮战式的抗衡让里科赢得了全球拳迷的广泛声援，为二番战埋下了极高的票房看点。 ### [49:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=2984s) 重量级拳坛格局与新星 Moses Itauma Joe Rogan 与 Rico Verhoeven 探讨了当下重量级拳击的整体格局。两人首先提到了两位英国重量级传奇人物之间的对决，尽管这场较量来得稍微有些晚，尤其是在 Anthony Joshua 最近一场遭遇严峻考验的惊险比赛之后，两人明显都不再处于巅峰期的相同状态，但因为彼此的传奇地位，这场大战终于促成依然令人无比兴奋。抛开这场对决，在当下的重量级拳坛，真正的焦点之战无疑是 Rico 与 Oleksandr Usyk 的二番战。Rogan 强调，目前重量级除了 Usyk 和 Rico，其他人都难以撑起这种级别的关注度。 谈及新生代力量时，两人特别提到了目前还不被大众完全熟知的 21 岁新星 Moses Itauma。Rogan 和 Rico 均对这位年轻人赞不绝口，将其形容为“炸药”（Dynamite）般危险且速度惊人。他在拳台上的进出移动极其丝滑流畅，Rogan 甚至感叹看他打拳就像是看到当代的年轻迈克·泰森（Mike Tyson）。然而，尽管潜力无限，Itauma 终究缺少顶尖大赛的经验与足够的知名度，未来的重量级舞台属于他，但眼下整个重量级拳坛最顶级的吸金与悬念焦点，依然集中在 Rico 和 Usyk 的终极较量上。 --- ### [51:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3064s) 乌西克的职业选择与维尔德的毁灭性力量 Rogan 开玩笑说真希望自己是一名赛事推广人，甚至提议或许可以让 Dana White 带着 Zuffa 参与进来。谈到 Usyk 当前的合约状态与心态时，Rico 指出 Usyk 似乎并未被任何单一推广方深度绑定，这恰恰解释了为什么他此前选择主动放弃多条金腰带——当拳王持有这些金腰带时，就会被各大拳击组织强行安排强制卫冕战（Mandatory fights）。对于 Usyk 而言，选择与 Rico 对战属于自愿卫冕（Voluntary defense），他希望完全按照自己的意愿和节奏来挑选对手。Rico 笑着调侃，Usyk 的团队最初可能以为选择他会是一场相对轻松的比赛，但实际战况显然打破了原定计划。 两人一致认为，Usyk 在拳坛取得如此伟大的成就之后，绝对有资格自己决定退役前的道路，并尽可能多赚取出场费。然而，对于 Usyk 团队目前传出可能对阵 Deontay Wilder 的传言，Rogan 与 Rico 进行了分析：Usyk 也许觉得打 Wilder 会更轻松一些，能够在一场引人注目的重击对决后风光退隐。但 Wilder 尽管已经 40 岁、近年状态低迷，却依然是拳击历史上最恐怖的单拳终结大师。即使在第 10 回合，Wilder 也能从不可思议的角度凭借一记重拳瞬间将对手打晕，正如他曾一拳打在 Luis Ortiz 头顶将其直接终结。不过，Usyk 对阵 Wilder 的商业号召力与付费转播（PPV）吸引力，终究无法与 Rico 的重赛相提并论。 - **金腰带强制卫冕机制的束缚**：拳王必须按期接受各组织的头号挑战者，Usyk 为争取完全自主的比赛决定权，宁可主动放弃部分金腰带。 - **Deontay Wilder 的终结威胁**：被誉为运动史上最具破坏力的单拳重炮手，力量即使在职业生涯暮年也从未衰退，依然具备一击逆转战局的危险性。 --- ### [53:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3227s) 转型职业拳击与重塑格斗思维 在被问及是否考虑过跨界 MMA 时，Rico 透露目前团队确实向他抛来了各种各样的可能选项，但他目前最坚定倾斜的方向依然是纯拳击。Rico 解释道，他从 6 岁起就开始练踢拳，在这项运动中深耕了 30 多年。过去他在踢拳中虽然也大量使用拳法，但那是“为了踢拳而服务的拳击”，节奏、距离、防守和移动机制截然不同。跨界进入真正的职业拳击，意味着他必须在脑海中彻底重新构建（rewire）自己所有的身体记忆与肌肉习惯。 在克服了技术重塑的巨大挑战并在拳台上打出令人惊艳的统治力之后，Rico 发自内心地感受到了拳击的乐趣与魅力。Rogan 随即指出，重量级向来是整个拳击界最具荣耀也最赚钱的“黄金级别”（Glory division），所有真正的超级巨星和天价收益都沉淀于此。打出如此亮眼的表现后，Rico 已经拥有了主导谈判的巨大优势，虽然各方报价纷至沓来，但 Rico 强调他们会保持冷静慢慢筛选，同时也会优先尊重并考虑沙特阿拉伯娱乐总局主席阁下（His Excellency Turki Alalshikh），因为正是对方给予了他这次改写生涯轨迹的顶级舞台。 --- ### [55:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3340s) 金字塔前的宿命对决与母亲的三十年轮回 谈及此前在埃及吉萨金字塔前进行的室外大战，Rico 动情地分享了一段从未公开过的宿命巧合。在这场大赛的备战训练营期间，Rico 的母亲不幸离世，这给他的心理带来了沉重的打击。在处理完丧事、帮母亲清理故居遗物时，家人翻找出了大量尘封已久的老照片。 令人震惊的是，在这些旧照中，Rico 赫然发现母亲在整整 30 年前曾独自前往埃及，在金字塔与狮身人面像前拍下了许多留影。看着 30 年前母亲站在金字塔前的身影，再想到自己即将要在同一个地方打响职业生涯最重大的一场旷世大战，Rico 浑身起满了鸡皮疙瘩。开战前夕，Rico 专门来到母亲当年站立的位置，以完全相同的构图和角度在金字塔前拍下了照片。这段跨越三十年的时空呼应，让他感受到了冥冥之中圆满闭环（full circle）的宿命力量。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 跨越三十年的宿命闭环 accDescr: 展现 Rico 母亲 30 年前在金字塔留影与 Rico 如今在同一地点备战拳击赛事的宿命交汇 subgraph Memory ["三十年前的历史连接"] A["母亲 30 年前游历埃及"] --> B["在金字塔与狮身人面像前留影"] end subgraph Present ["如今的备战与发现"] C["备战历史性重量级对决"] --> D["母亲在训练营期间离世"] D --> E["清理故居时偶然发现老照片"] end subgraph Convergence ["宿命的交汇点"] B -.-> F["在金字塔前以相同构图重拍留念"] E --> F F --> G["金字塔下震撼开战：人生的完整闭环"] end ``` --- ### [58:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3485s) “丛林之战”般的震撼场地与策划幕后 当 Rogan 追问主办方究竟是如何构想出“在金字塔前举办重量级拳王头衔战”这一疯狂点子时，Rico 笑着透露，中东主办方的沟通方式极其直接、简练且神秘。最初，他的手机上仅仅收到了一条 WhatsApp 简讯，里面附带了一张金字塔的照片，配文轻描淡写地写着：“我们正在考虑选这个场地。”起初 Rico 以为只是在金字塔附近的某个室内场馆，还纳闷这究竟要怎么操作；紧接着对方又发来一段视频，确认拳台将完全露天搭建在金字塔的正前方。 当真正置身于浩瀚的金字塔与漫天星空下登台作战时，那种无与伦比的历史厚重感与仪式感令人震撼。Rico 将这种震撼体验比作当年的“丛林之战”（Rumble in the Jungle）。他随即严谨地澄清，外界有人曲解了他的言论，以为他狂妄自大地将自己与 Muhammad Ali 或 George Foreman 放在同一历史高度；但他强调自己一直保持谦逊，当时所指的纯粹是这种绝无仅有、将自然历史奇迹化为擂台背景的宏大史诗感，场地本身已然成为了格斗体验中不可分割的一部分。 ### [59:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3593s) 金字塔之夜：震撼的出场编排与台阶惊险一跃 里科·范霍文（Rico Verhoeven）向乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）生动地回忆了在埃及金字塔前那场史诗级赛事的出场细节。赛事方当时希望他配合一些舞台动作，里科原本不想搞得太繁琐，希望能全身心专注于接下来的恶战，于是导演组告诉他动作极其简单：“你只需要狠狠砸向地面，地面随后会特效裂开，整场活动将第一次在此刻全面点亮金字塔。”里科欣然同意。当他在现场一拳砸向地面、转身回望的瞬间，特效光芒四射，宏伟的金字塔伴随着震撼的灯光瞬间被照亮，那一幕让他全身起鸡皮疙瘩。这也是里科人生中第一次亲眼见到金字塔，那种仿佛生命历程闭环的仪式感让他终生难忘。 随后他的出场主题曲奏响，里科开始了招牌式的冲刺跑向擂台。然而当天的通道并不是常规平坦的T台（catwalk），白天踩点时他注意到前面有五六级向下的小台阶。当在全场沸腾的音乐中冲刺时，里科眼看就要跑到台阶跟前，脑子里电光石火地闪过一个念头：“我是该小碎步跑下去，还是直接跳？”他果断心一横：“去他的，直接跳！”结果落地时才发现高度远超预期，震得整个人一顿，所幸脚踝没有扭伤，他顺势继续向前飞奔。赛后摄像师惊魂未定地跑来对他说：“兄弟，我刚才差点跟丢了！我镜头一直对着你，结果‘唰’的一下你人直接从画面里蒸发了！”两人聊到现场的露天环境，当时气温约为摄氏 20 度（华氏 68 度左右），凉爽宜人，堪称完美的战斗之夜。 - **金字塔点亮仪式**：主办方利用地面开裂特效与背景金字塔的整体照明联动，作为里科登场的标志性瞬间。 - **出场意外插曲**：冲刺时从约 5-6 级台阶上一跃而下，因高度超出预判险些扭伤脚踝，并导致跟拍摄像师镜头完全跟丢。 - **环境条件**：露天作战，气温约 20°C（68°F），体感极佳。 --- ### [01:02:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3753s) 75场格斗沉淀与外界的质疑：踢拳巨兽跨界拳击 乔·罗根询问里科在踏入这样的超级大场面时，内心是否会感到与以往比赛有何不同。里科坦言毫无分别，因为他早已在顶尖格斗擂台上摸爬滚打了 75 场以上。罗根感慨，这种海量的大赛经验是无可比拟的巨大优势。然而，外界在赛前却充斥着冷嘲热讽与质疑声，许多拳击迷和评论员紧抓着“他只有一场职业拳击经历”不放，大肆叫嚣“这人凭什么站在这里？根本毫无道理”。里科对此只能报以淡然：“伙计们，我在格斗擂台内外摸爬滚打可不是一天两天了。” 比赛结束之后，舆论彻底反转，里科收到了海量来自知名职业拳手与拳迷的道歉私信，大家纷纷惊叹：“里科，我之前根本不知道你居然有这种水准，这场表现简直太疯狂了！”罗根也直言，自己赛前虽然知道里科是踢拳界有史以来最伟大的传奇之一，但依然捏了一把汗，因为改打纯拳击等于直接废掉了里科最具杀伤力的招牌武器——如同树桩般粗壮沉重的低扫重腿。在面对重量级拳坛史上最顶尖的拳王时，里科不仅顶住了压力，更打出了一场让所有格斗迷热血沸腾的惊艳对决。 - **大赛底蕴**：里科拥有超过 75 场职业踢拳赛事的丰富历练，心态早已波澜不惊。 - **外界评价的反转**：赛前拳击界普遍因其仅有 1 场职业拳击战绩而极为看衰；赛后大量知名拳手主动向前来道歉致敬。 - **技术层面的割舍**：转型纯拳击剥夺了里科最具毁灭性的杀招（低扫腿），但他用纯粹的拳击技术打破了外界质疑。 --- ### [01:04:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3844s) 站姿蜕变：从踢拳的方正架到Peter Fury的拳击侧架 里科深入剖析了自己转型拳击时最大、也最成功的战术改造——站姿（Stance）。在踢拳领域，为了随时提膝格挡对手的扫腿，拳手的身体站架必须相对“正面朝前”（Square on）。多年来，著名教练彼得·富里（Peter Fury）一直催促他把身体侧过来，但里科当时根本无法照做：“我如果作为一个踢拳手侧身站立，对手会直接把我的支撑腿踢废，因为我根本没办法起腿格挡。” ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 踢拳站姿与纯拳击站姿的力学权衡 accDescr: 对比踢拳防扫腿的正身站架与纯拳击侧身站架的结构差异与肌肉记忆重塑过程 subgraph Kickboxing["传统踢拳站姿 (Square-on)"] K1["身体正对对手"] --> K2["便于双腿提膝格挡扫腿"] K2 --> K3["缺点: 躯干暴露面积大 / 拳击躲闪转动受限"] end subgraph Boxing["纯拳击站姿 (Side-on)"] B1["身体侧向站立"] --> B2["减少有效打击目标 / 便于滑步与防守反击"] B2 --> B3["六个月封闭重塑: 将刻意调整内化为肌肉本能"] end Kickboxing -.->|"去除低扫威胁<br>由 Peter Fury 彻底重塑"| Boxing ``` 当正式转战纯拳击后，彼得·富里终于大喜过望：“现在我终于可以毫无顾忌地教你纯粹的拳击站姿了！”在备战过程中，教练团队每分每秒都在大喊提醒他：“再侧一点！往侧面转！你现在又太正了，退回去重新来！”里科透露，将这种根深蒂固十几年的肌肉记忆彻底洗牌，必须经历长达六个月极其艰苦的魔鬼磨砺。在备战初期，他还需要大脑时刻刻意提醒自己调整站姿，但到了真正踏上拳台时，侧向站架已经彻底内化为不假思索的身体本能。尽管安东尼·约书亚（Anthony Joshua）此前的变故令人遗憾，但这多出来的六个月备战窗口期，恰恰给了里科完成脱胎换骨般纯拳击蜕变的宝贵时间。 - **站姿机制差异**：踢拳需正对以便格挡扫腿；拳击侧身能极大缩减受击面积并优化上身闪避轴心。 - **六个月转型期**：在这半年的封闭集训中，彼得·富里全程严扣细节，最终在实战中将侧身站架转化为无意识的条件反射。 --- ### [01:06:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=3980s) 对决乌西克：用“金·凯瑞式”混沌破坏节奏大师 在谈到面对奥莱克桑德·乌西克（Oleksandr Usyk）的实战策略时，里科笑着提起了自己在社交媒体上发布的“金·凯瑞（Jim Carrey）搞笑摇摆”模因（Meme）。在赛前训练流出时，外界很多人都在嘲笑他：“这家伙动作怎么看起来这么怪？他到底在搞什么鬼？”但里科和团队心里非常清楚，这种非典型的晃动与混乱节奏，正是瓦解乌西克的绝佳利器。 罗根高度赞同这一战术，指出里科在整场比赛中制造了源源不断的“混乱”——手部不停做假动作、上身频繁晃动、持续向前压迫与滑步换角度，让乌西克的大脑被迫超负荷运转以处理这些信息，根本没有任何定点布阵的时间。里科解释道，纵观整个重量级，乌西克以往在所有比赛中都是绝对的场上指挥官，习惯用大量假动作让对手疲于应付。而里科团队的策略就是“以彼之道还施彼身”，强行剥夺乌西克的掌控权，让他从主导者沦为被动的应对者。里科自信地表示，自己的战术武器库里还有大量底牌未出，如果未来与乌西克进行二番战，或者面对其他顶尖拳手，他随时能拿出截然不同的全新面貌。 - **心理战与肢体假动作**：借鉴金·凯瑞式的夸张无序晃动，打乱传统拳击教科书的预判逻辑。 - **压制节奏大师**：反向利用乌西克最擅长的信息轰炸，通过高频肢体动作和压迫迫使乌西克大脑过载，无法组织自身攻势。 --- ### [01:07:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4074s) 体能巅峰的本质：疲劳降临时的心智博弈 乔·罗根向里科请教了他的体能储备秘诀。罗根惊叹于里科拥有如此庞大魁梧的重型身躯，却能在高强度的拳击战中全程保持极其充沛的心肺输出，这在重量级选手里实属罕见。然而里科的回答却出人意料，他并不认为单纯是身体或训练计划上的神话： > “乔，说实话，在世界最顶尖的层面上，每个人都在拼命苦练，对吧？我也只是极其努力地训练而已。但我认为最根本的区别在于心理层面——当你开始感到疲惫、当身体向你发出力竭信号的那一刻，你的大脑究竟如何去消化和应对它？” 里科道破了自己在疲劳时的心理防线：每当在擂台上感受到体能极点、开始感到疲倦时，他心中浮现的第一个念头不是痛苦，而是笃定“对面的家伙现在肯定比我更难受（feeling like shit）”。因为他清楚自己在训练营里为了达到最佳体能状态做到了何等极致的自我压榨。里科坦言，如果对比顶尖高手之间的训练日程表，他很难相信自己的训练量会比其他名将多出好几倍，真正的胜负手全在于疲劳降临时，谁的心智更强大、谁能先在意志层面把对手彻底击垮。 - **顶级训练的同质性**：在职业体育最顶峰，高手的体能训练强度差异极小，单纯拼体能课表无法拉开本质差距。 - **疲劳心理逆转法**：将自身的疲惫感转化为对对手状态的进攻性预判——“我这么拼都累了，对方必定濒临崩溃”，以此作为维持高压输出的心智动力源。 ### [01:09:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4163s) 耐力型重量级拳手：高次数、短间歇的体能哲学 两人的对话从选手的体能基因切入。Joe Rogan 提到，某些格斗选手天生具备极度出色的心肺耐力和体能，例如 UFC 重量级名将凯恩·维拉斯奎兹（Cain Velasquez），在重量级里简直就是一台体能怪兽。随后 Joe 询问 Rico Verhoeven，在日常训练中，力量体能训练（Strength & Conditioning）与技术打磨的时间是如何分配的。 Rico 表示两者的配比相当均衡，但他所有力量训练的核心逻辑完全是建立在“耐力”之上的。他直言自己根本不在乎能不能卧推 300 磅，也不刻意追求成为重量级里击打力量最重的那个人。因为他自身体重常年维持在 260 磅左右，哪怕不是纯粹的单拳重炮手，重量级骨骼与体量带来的穿透力依然不可小觑，“只要我打中你，你一定会切身体会到那种重击”。Rico 强调，他或许不是击打力量最强的，也未必自诩为技术最全面的，但他坚信自己绝对是“练得最刻苦的那个人”（hardest worker）。 谈到具体的训练菜单，Rico 透露自己每周进行三次全身力量训练（full-body workout）。这套体系将力量与体能深度结合： - 比如针对胸部肌群做一组 20 次反复（reps），随后立刻切换至另一个练习动作再做 20 次，单组累计 40 次； - 每个动作之间的间歇极短，严格控制在 30 秒左右； - 紧接着切换到其他肌群，随后再循环回胸部训练； - 随着备战进入尾声、比赛日期临近，单组的反复次数会从 20 次逐步往上递增到 22 次、24 次，但负重重量始终保持不变。 整套高节奏的高强度循环训练全程仅耗时约 35 到 40 分钟。Rico 解释道，盲目增加肌肉围度对于重量级搏击选手来说并无益处，大块的死肌肉不仅要在擂台上全程负重移动，还会像海绵一样疯狂消耗氧气，迫使心脏承受巨大的供氧负荷。通过这种维持负重但不断拔高动作次数与缩短间歇的方式，选手既能获得惊人的肌耐力与力量，又能把体能状态推向巅峰。 --- ### [01:12:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4369s) 跑步减负与前交叉韧带（ACL）及半月板重伤康复 在跑步训练方面，Rico 会结合心率监测设备进行多种模式的测试，包括持续一小时的长距离耐力跑以及间歇冲刺跑（interval running）。鉴于职业生涯对关节的常年磨损，Rico 极少在坚硬的室外水泥路面上奔跑，而是采用一种特殊的“减重跑步机”（带有气囊密封仓，类似 AlterG 反重力跑步机）。训练时身体被一个大型气囊包裹加压，能够卸去一部分自身体重。Rico 表示自己极度热爱跑步带来的心智磨砺与身体考验，但通过气囊减负，可以彻底规避沉重体重对膝关节带来的毁灭性冲击力。 这一保护措施源于三年前的一次严重伤病。当时 Rico 遭遇了前交叉韧带（ACL）撕裂，同时伴随半月板“桶柄样撕裂”（bucket-handle tear）。回想起当时的剧痛与挫败感，Rico 坦言曾一度觉得自己到了职业生涯尾声、一切都要完蛋了。幸运的是，通过手术对撕裂的半月板进行缝合修补（而非切除），经过最初六周严禁承重的康复期后，他在短短六个月内便奇迹般重返擂台。 Joe Rogan 听后深有共鸣，表示自己当年的膝伤一模一样。Joe 回忆过去医学界倾向于直接将损伤的半月板切除，如今研究已经证实这种做法毫无益处——失去半月板这一天然缓冲垫后，骨头之间会直接发生硬性摩擦。Joe 坦言自己左膝当年就被切掉了一大块半月板，至今依然常年隐隐作痛。 - 现代膝关节半月板损伤倾向于原位缝合修复，切除半月板会在 10 年内引发严重的骨关节炎退行性病变。 - 对于严重缺损者，医学界虽然有异体半月板移植手术（cadaver graft），但在老年人群或无综合干预的情况下成功率难以保证。 --- ### [01:15:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4559s) 身体保养、多模态恢复与“训练势头”的心理学 看到 Rico 依然保持顶级的运动状态，Joe 与他探讨起对抗衰老和运动恢复的各种前沿手段。Rico 惊叹 Joe 从上一次录节目至今仿佛一点都没变老，向 Joe 讨教日常的保养秘方。Joe 详细列举了自己的高频恢复方案： - **冷水浸泡（Cold Plunge）**：几乎每天清晨必做（Rico 亦是冷水浴的狂热爱好者）； - **桑拿浴（Sauna）**：高频次结合冷热交替排毒与放松血管； - **红光疗法（Red Light Therapy）**：每周坚持进行 4 至 5 次； - **高压氧舱（Hyperbaric Chamber）**：每周争取做 3 到 4 次，能显著改善深层疲劳与组织修复； - 辅以肽类物质（Peptides）与干细胞（Stem cells）等生物手段加速愈合。 Joe 强调，最重要的底线是“绝对不能让自己彻底走形脱离训练”（can't get out of shape）。一旦彻底松懈荒废，想要重回巅峰难如登天；但如果常年维持在训练状态，人体的运动寿命会超乎想象。Joe 举了传奇拳王伯纳德·霍普金斯（Bernard Hopkins）的例子：凭借极致的自律、严苛的饮食和常年泡在拳馆里的执着，霍普金斯在 50 岁高龄依然能在世界拳王争霸赛中处于顶尖水准。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: Physical and Mental Conditioning Feedback Loop accDescr: 展现高强度训练、心理状态重塑与惯性势头之间相互促进的良性循环 subgraph Mindset ["个人空间与心智调整"] A["进入拳馆 / 关掉手机"] --> B["专注于个人身心（Me Time）"] B --> C["释放内啡肽 / 消除焦虑与压力"] end subgraph Consistency ["自律与势头转化"] C --> D["建立连续几天的良好状态"] D --> E["形成正向势头（Momentum）"] E --> F["降低对自律的意志消耗"] F --> A end ``` 两人深入探讨了训练对心理健康的深层价值。Rico 动情地表示，日常训练不仅是锻炼肉体，更是属于自己的“独处时间”（me time）。在这个时间段里，你可以放下家庭生计的重担、关掉手机、戴上耳机听音乐，把全副精力投入到自己的身心重塑上。走出拳馆后，内啡肽的释放会彻底冲刷掉生活中的焦虑与重压。Joe 进而补充道，大众往往过分神化“自律”（discipline），然而自律往往伴随着反人性的抗拒感；真正能让长久坚持变得轻而易举的，其实是“势头”（momentum）——只要连续熬过最初几天，形成稳定的运动惯性，自律就不再需要痛苦的心理拉锯。 ### [01:18:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4706s) 自律背后的代价：将丧亲之痛转化为擂台燃料 对话从日复一日训练的枯燥与自律切入。里科·范霍文（Rico Verhoeven）坦言，格斗选手和普通上班族其实没什么不同，几乎每天早晨醒来时，心底里都会冒出“今天真的一点都不想练”的念头。然而，真正的冠军品质正是由自律定义的——“我虽然不想做，但我必须去做；因为如果我在最抗拒的日子里都能咬牙完成，那么其他日子就会变得轻而易举”。 随着话题深入，范霍文敞开心扉，谈及自己在情绪管理和面对失利时长期存在的心理模式。他坦承，自己这辈子处理人生重大变故的方式一直存在隐患：在本次备战期间，他的母亲不幸离世；此前在对阵贾马尔·本·萨迪克（Jamal Ben Saddik）的焦点大战前夕，他的父亲也撒手人寰。然而面对接踵而至的至亲离世，他从未给自己留出停下来悲伤、真正消化情绪的时间。相反，他习惯性地把所有心理创伤强行压制，转化为肉体上的痛苦，将巨大的悲痛当作擂台上摧毁对手的“燃料”。他坦言，这种极端的方式在拳台上或许能铸就坚不可摧的冠军，但在擂台之外的个人生活、人际交往与亲密关系中，这绝对不是一种健康的应对机制。 - **自律的法则**：在毫无动力、极度抗拒的日子里依然坚持执行，会使随后的每一个日常训练都变得举重若轻。 - **情感压抑模式**：接连在重大比赛备战期遭遇父母离世，范霍文习惯于将情绪痛苦（emotional pain）机械地转化为肉体痛苦（physical pain），以此充当比赛的能量源。 --- ### [01:20:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4804s) 追求卓越与情感消化：正视悲伤而非一味压抑 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）对此深表认同并补充道，一个人如果立志成为领域内的天花板、取得常人难以企及的卓越成就，就必须陷入近乎偏执的狂热（obsessed）；而在这种绝对痴狂的状态下，追求所谓的“生活平衡”几乎是不可能的伪命题。范霍文回应称，比起强求某种平衡，更关键的是学会如何面对生活中的挫折与打击。例如面对失利，他需要找到一种健康的消化方式，而不是陷入“裁判抢劫了我”的愤怒或无休止的挫败感中。 为了打破这种长久以来的情感回避，范霍文迈出了艰难的一步。就在对话的四五周前，他平生第一次鼓起勇气重新观看了今年二月份母亲葬礼的录像。他逼着自己从头到尾完整地看完了整场仪式，任由那些悲伤的情感彻底将自己冲刷。他意识到，自己不能再把所有脆弱推到心底最深处、仅仅将其当成擂台竞技的工具；作为一个活生生的人，必须学会去完整体验和感受这些情绪，才能在未来的退役转型中维持心理健康。罗根由衷赞许这种自我觉察，直言许多曾经站在世界之巅的格斗家在脱离了聚光灯、荣耀与擂台混乱后陷入迷失，正是因为他们无法完成这种内在的心态过渡。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 格斗家情感处理机制的转变 accDescr: 展示从传统的擂台压抑模式转向健康情绪消化的转变路径 subgraph 过去模式["擂台至上模式（不可持续）"] A["重大情感创伤（如亲人离世、比赛失利）"] --> B["强行压抑与回避情绪"] B --> C["转化为肉体痛苦与训练折磨"] C --> D["作为擂台爆发的纯粹燃料"] D --> E["个人生活与人际关系失衡"] end subgraph 转变过程["觉醒与过渡"] F["直面痛苦记忆（如回看母亲葬礼录像）"] G["与行业成熟演员交流获得启发"] end subgraph 未来模式["艺术与心理成熟模式"] H["允许自己充分体验并感受悲伤"] H --> I["将其转化为具有感染力的表演深度"] H --> J["退役后建立健康平稳的人格支撑"] end E -. 觉察与反思.-> F F --> H G --> I ``` --- ### [01:22:44](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4964s) 银幕新起点：与吉伦哈尔、巴蒂斯塔和斯坦森的交集 范霍文庆幸自己在临近退役之际找到了全新的热情所在——表演。在参与影视拍摄的过程中，他与杰克·吉伦哈尔（Jake Gyllenhaal）、戴夫·巴蒂斯塔（Dave Bautista）以及阿尔迪斯·霍吉（Aldis Hodge）等实力派演员同台合作。这些资深演员在片场展现出的专业精神令他大开眼界，而在与他们的深入交流中，范霍文获得了极大的启发：演员的世界恰恰相反，优秀表演的核心要求就是“去感受”。 演员同行们告诉范霍文，不要再习惯性地将内心的情绪推开并强行换算成肉体折磨；在镜头前，如果一个演员真正能够调用自己的切肤之痛与真实人生阅历，那份情感所展现出的力量是无可替代的。这让他意识到，曾经伴随痛苦的情感体验不仅能被正视，还能被升华成某种积极的艺术创造力。谈到已参演的作品，范霍文盘点道，自己已经拍了数部电影，其中最知名的包括与杰拉德·巴特勒（Gerard Butler）及小奥谢拉·杰克逊（O'Shea Jackson Jr.）合作的《极盗战 2：潘多拉》（Den of Thieves 2: Pantera），以及与吉伦哈尔共同出演的《新威龙杀手》（Road House）。 此外，范霍文透露自己一直与动作巨星杰森·斯坦森（Jason Statham）探讨未来的合作可能。斯坦森对里科的银幕发展极为上心，经常叮嘱道：“里科，我希望你接拍特定类型的电影，演特定类型的角色，我不希望你一出场就早早领便当，你要这样演、那样演。”罗根赞叹斯坦森本身就是世界级跳水运动员出身，同时是个狂热的格斗迷；斯坦森不仅会亲自去现场观摩范霍文的冠军卫冕战，范霍文也会去片场观摩斯坦森拍戏，切身感受对方那令人叹为观止的高水准专业度。 - **合作演职员**：与杰克·吉伦哈尔、阿尔迪斯·霍吉、杰拉德·巴特勒、小奥谢拉·杰克逊及戴夫·巴蒂斯塔等同台切磋。 - **代表作品**：《极盗战 2：潘多拉》（Den of Thieves 2: Pantera）、《新威龙杀手》（Road House）。 - **与杰森·斯坦森的渊源**：斯坦森身为前英国跳水队名将及狂热格斗迷，会亲临现场支持范霍文的比赛；两人正密切物色合作剧本，斯坦森为其角色定位提供指导。 --- ### [01:25:52](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5152s) 演员的深度与跨界平衡：职业生涯晚期的抉择 谈到由职业体育跨界演艺界的成功典范，两人都盛赞了戴夫·巴蒂斯塔。罗根与范霍文一致认为，巴蒂斯塔早已不是“又一个从 WWE 跨界玩票的大块头”，而是一位真正具有卓越塑造力的实力派演员。他在《利刃出鞘 2：抽丝剥茧》（Glass Onion: A Knives Out Mystery）中的演出精彩绝伦，彻底颠覆了外界对体型魁梧男星只能扮演无脑打手的刻板偏见，证明了肌肉硬汉同样拥有极具层次的人性深度。尽管巴蒂斯塔近期为了拓展戏路大幅减重，但正如两人所感叹的，他目前依然重达 240 磅，体格依旧惊人，且在私下里是片场中最友善、最随和的人。 面对身处职业生涯黄昏期（the winter of your career）的现实，罗根询问范霍文：如果现在突然接到一个绝佳的电影角色邀约，但同时潜在有一场万众瞩目的重大拳赛，他会如何权衡？范霍文斩钉截铁地回答：“绝不会同时接下。”他解释称，自己对待职业绝不三心二意，必须先专注打好收尾的比赛；如果决定接戏，就绝不仓促备战高强度的格斗对决。回顾当初拍摄《新威龙杀手》时，他随后直接接下了对阵重量级巨星的重大比赛邀约，但当时自己仅仅被视作一名自由搏击冠军，在庞大的商业运作中处于毫无话语权的被动地位。如今，他已经在最高擂台上彻底证明了统治力，拥有了真正的行业议价权，如果未来面临片约与赛程的冲突，他能够主动要求赛事方推迟比赛档期，确保自己拥有绝对充足的时间全身心投入到备战当中。 ### [01:28:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5292s) UFC 的谈判、与德里克·刘易斯交手的传闻与薪酬差距 里科·范霍文（Rico Verhoeven）首先谈到了备战与拍戏之间的平衡难题。他直言，自己绝不可能仓促结束一部电影的拍摄后，马上无缝衔接入一个仅有两到两个半月的短营备战；对于这种级别和量级的重大对决，他必须留出整整四个月“干净且专注”的高质量备战期。乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）顺势将话题引向了综合格斗界最引人瞩目的话题：范霍文通往 UFC 的大门是否已经彻底焊死？罗根透露，UFC 此前确实主动联系过范霍文，双方甚至深入探讨过撮合他与“黑兽”德里克·刘易斯（Derrick Lewis）上演重炮对决的方案，这曾让罗根等一众格斗迷兴奋不已。 然而，阻碍这场梦幻跨界大战的核心正是酬劳。罗根感叹 UFC 开出的报价与范霍文如今在站立格斗和跨界赛中所拿到的巨额收入相比简直天差地别，范霍文苦笑着回应：“我认为现在的差距比当时还要更大。”他坦言自己没必要拐弯抹角，出于经济利益考虑，去打 UFC 完全就是在开历史倒车。除非 UFC 能开出一份在商业逻辑上完全合理的天价合同，否则这扇门在现实中根本无法开启，毕竟整个格斗界都清楚 UFC 严苛的薪酬薪资结构很难为单一选手打破惯例。 - **备战周期要求**：面对超重磅对决，范霍文坚持需要至少整整 4 个月的纯粹备战营，拒绝 2 至 2.5 个月的仓促上阵。 - **潜在对决告吹**：UFC 曾就撮合范霍文与德里克·刘易斯（Derrick Lewis）进行接触，但终因巨大的薪酬鸿沟未有进展。 --- ### [01:29:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5363s) 汤姆·阿斯皮纳尔的插眼争议与手套设计的致命缺陷 谈及 UFC 重量级，罗根询问范霍文是否曾与临时冠军汤姆·阿斯皮纳尔（Tom Aspinall）共同训练过。范霍文透露两人是相识近十年的挚友，长年一起切磋实战。罗根随即为阿斯皮纳尔打抱不平，痛斥部分拳迷和舆论在其因遭遇严重插眼而被迫叫停比赛后的苛责态度。罗根情绪激动地反问：“那帮人到底想让他怎么样？他当时是在卫冕重量级腰带，眼睛被人狠狠戳中，根本他妈什么都看不见了！在那之后他甚至不得不接受了两次眼部手术！”范霍文也为好友辩护，称阿斯皮纳尔不仅为人极度谦逊友善，训练更是无比拼命，外界所谓“首回合落后借故退赛”的猜测纯属无稽之谈——慢镜头显示对手的手指几乎是“整截指关节都插进了眼眶”，那种伤害是不可逆的生理重创。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: MMA手套设计与插眼风险对比 accDescr: 对比传统UFC手套与特雷弗·惠特曼设计的Onyx手套在手指姿态与防插眼机制上的差异。 subgraph UFC["传统 UFC 手套"] A["手套平直设计"] --> B["自然放松状态新手掌张开"] B --> C["防守/拉开距离（Framing）时手指直接朝前"] C --> D["发生严重插眼事故（Eye Pokes）"] end subgraph Onyx["Onyx 弧形手套（Trevor Wittman 设计）"] E["预弯曲弧度结构"] --> F["静止状态手指自然内扣微握拳"] F --> G["阻击推移时指尖向下朝内收拢"] G --> H["大幅消除直接戳眼的力学风险"] end ``` 谈到多次引发此类事故的西里尔·盖恩（Ciryl Gane），两人都认为盖恩并不是故意伤害对手的肮脏拳手，这纯粹是技术习惯与装备缺陷共同导致的悲剧。泰拳出身的拳手习惯在后撤时张开手掌前推（framing）借力控制距离，在高速冲突下极易直接戳击对方眼球。罗根指出，真正从源头解决该问题的方案是彻底改革 MMA 手套：比如将指尖部分封口包裹成连指护套风格，或者全面换用贾斯汀·盖奇（Justin Gaethje）的教练特雷弗·惠特曼（Trevor Wittman / Onyx Sports）专利设计的弯曲手套。UFC 现有手套迫使拳手掌面呈完全平展张开状，想要握拳必须用力下扣；而惠特曼的手套自带自然弯曲弧度，即便本能推掌，手指也不会笔直伸向对手眼眶。 - **伤情事实**：阿斯皮纳尔在被深度插眼导致比赛终止后，后续已累计接受了两次眼部手术。 - **手套力学缺陷**：现役标准 UFC 手套呈平面张力，迫使拳手五指水平伸展；特雷弗·惠特曼设计的 Onyx 弧度手套则能强行引导拳头维持自然微握姿态。 --- ### [01:32:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5536s) 西里尔·盖恩的惊人移动能力与《贼巢2》的同台经历 话题随后延伸到盖恩的整体格斗风格与比赛争议。针对盖恩在比赛中偶有击打对手后脑的指责（如对阵亚历克斯·佩雷拉时的回合），罗根与范霍文分析认为，在极高强度的换拳过程中，对手头部随时在剧烈摆动，挥出的重拳很难在出拳半途中刹车，将这种混乱场面完全归咎于拳手恶意是不公允的。罗根甚至在自己与迪恩·托马斯（Din Thomas）、马特·塞拉（Matt Serra）等人的播客群聊中专门探讨过盖恩的身体天赋——篮球背景为这类巨型大级别选手赋予了不可思议的敏捷移动能力。 罗根让制作人杰米调出盖恩与 NBA 中锋一对一打篮球的最新视频，画面中体重高达 250 磅的盖恩步法轻盈、变向自如，犹如后卫般灵巧。范霍文笑着附和，透露自己此前在参与拍摄好莱坞动作电影《贼巢2》（*Den of Thieves 2*）时，盖恩也在该片剧组，两人甚至在同一场戏中搭档并一起走位互动。在范霍文眼中，盖恩真人极其随和，在八角笼里更是滑溜难缠；除了曾被乔恩·琼斯（Jon Jones）地面降服、被弗朗西斯·纳干诺（Francis Ngannou）通过摔跤压制外，盖恩在纯站立对决中几乎从未陷入过被重创或击倒的险境。然而范霍文强调，阿斯皮纳尔同样具备这种级别的灵动移动，而且在近身爆发力（blitz）和一击必杀的单拳重击力量上更具杀伤力。 - **多面天赋跨界**：重达 250 磅的西里尔·盖恩在篮球场上对阵职业中锋展现出惊人步法与球感。 - **好莱坞同框**：范霍文与西里尔·盖恩共同参演了电影《贼巢2》（*Den of Thieves 2*），并在戏内有直接的同台打斗互动。 --- ### [01:35:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5700s) 拳手薪资困境、埃迪·赫恩的入局与图尔基的搅局 两人的讨论再次回到那场被眼击毁掉的比赛，对轻率斥责选手的非核心拳迷（casual fans）表达了深切无奈。罗根怒斥道：“那是一记实打实的犯规！他不是被摆拳打晕，不是被扫踢或肘击打中，而是被严重犯规破坏了视觉神经。指望一个失去单眼视力的人‘别矫情继续打’简直是疯了。”比赛因无法挽回的犯规而被迫终止是唯一合理的判决，责任全在犯规方而非受害方。 由此延伸到拳手的职业生涯规划与收入保障。范霍文指出，考虑到综合收益与身体风险，现阶段自己选择拳击擂台是无比明智的决定。罗根对此深表赞同，并透露阿斯皮纳尔未来同样极有可能涉足职业拳击领域——如今著名拳击推广人埃迪·赫恩（Eddie Hearn）携其麾下的 Matchroom 体育正式接手阿斯皮纳尔的经纪事务。赫恩强大的全球宣发引擎为阿斯皮纳尔提供了与 UFC 叫板的底牌与谈判杠杆。罗根直言，自己作为格斗赛事的观察者，终极心愿是看到真正卖座、打法极具观赏性的拳手能拿到配得上身价的顶薪；而随着沙特娱乐总局主席图尔基·阿拉尔希赫（Turki Alalshikh）重金入局并强势重塑职业搏击的酬金天花板，整个行业的薪资结构正迎来前所未有的剧烈震荡。 - **经纪格局剧变**：汤姆·阿斯皮纳尔已与 Matchroom 拳击推广巨头埃迪·赫恩（Eddie Hearn）展开深度合作，为其进军职业拳击或重签天价 MMA 合同铺平道路。 - **市场资本搅局**：沙特拳击掌舵人图尔基·阿拉尔希赫（Turki Alalshikh）以超级奖金池彻底拔高了重磅格斗赛事的报酬基准。 ### [01:36:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5808s) 图尔基·阿拉尔希赫的破圈之举：打破常规的超级大战 乔·罗根与里科·范霍文深入探讨了沙特娱乐总局主席图尔基·阿拉尔希赫（Turki Alalshikh）对现代格斗运动产生的颠覆性影响。在传统推广人模式下，拳手之间往往因为酬劳或商业博弈难以达成协议，而图尔基凭借极具诱惑力的报价，直接促成了多场原本看似不可能发生的超级大战。里科赞叹图尔基最具魅力之处在于他“打破常规”（thinks outside of the box）的思维模式。无论是让职业拳击战绩为零的前 UFC 重量级冠军弗朗西斯·纳干诺（Francis Ngannou）直接跨界对决泰森·富里（Tyson Fury）并打出一场引发巨大争议的分歧判定，还是促成特伦斯·克劳福德（Terence Crawford）越级挑战萨乌尔·阿瓦雷兹（Canelo Álvarez）的构想，都展现了他敢于颠覆行业规则的魄力。 两人特别回顾了克劳福德连跨数个量级展现出的惊人统治力。在外界普遍认为阿瓦雷兹体格过于庞大、克劳福德一旦挨拳就会遭受重创的看衰声中，克劳福德展现了历史级别的细腻技术与丝滑移动。罗根指出，克劳福德极度聪明，为了跨量级整整备战了一年，进行了精准的力量训练而没有过度增肌；更关键的是，克劳福德以往为了压缩到 154 磅等低量级往往需要承受残酷的脱水减重，当他无需剧烈减重、以接近平时走动体重（约 176 至 177 磅）的状态出战时，他的身体机能反而更健康、体能表现更充沛，再结合面对轻量级对手练就的顶级反应速度与轻盈步伐，造就了令人叹为观止的擂台大师课。 - 传统拳击推广的僵局被打破，只要拳手犹豫不决，图尔基就会直接用难以拒绝的报价让比赛落地。 - 纳干诺跨界对阵富里的比赛完全打破了传统职业拳击的资历逻辑，首战即惊艳世界。 - 克劳福德在免去极限脱水之苦后，展现了速度、灵活性与更强体能储备的完美结合。 ### [01:39:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5979s) 宿怨二番战的期许：麦迪逊广场花园与拉斯维加斯 谈到里科自己的未来动向，罗根坚信刚刚结束的焦点战让里科的市场号召力达到了全新高度，公众对他的下一场比赛充满期待。两人一致认为，在首战以如此微弱且备受争议的比分收场、裁判打分引发轩然大波之后，安排一场二番战是唯一公正合理的决定。里科表示，自己非常渴望二番战能在完全不同的环境与氛围中打响。当罗根提议拉斯维加斯或纽约麦迪逊广场花园（Madison Square Garden, MSG）时，里科坦言这两个擂台圣地始终躺在他的“职业生涯愿望清单”上——他曾在 2012 年左右于纽约的一处宴会厅打过比赛，但从未登上过真正的麦迪逊广场花园。 罗根动情地描述了麦迪逊广场花园不可替代的标志性地位。即便纽约市街头充斥着喇叭轰鸣和暴躁的喧嚣，但只要踏入那座球馆，无论是 NBA 篮球赛、经典演唱会还是 UFC 冠军战，那种独特的历史厚重感都会让人肃然起敬。当广播中响起“来自麦迪逊广场花园的现场直播”时，全场观众与拳手都会瞬间起一身鸡皮疙瘩。里科接着提到，图尔基此前甚至把拳击推广活动办到了时代广场，甚至计划将比赛搬到埃及金字塔脚下——对图尔基来说，外界越是质疑“这绝不可能发生”，越能激发他将其变为现实的斗志。拥有近乎无限的雄厚资金支持，图尔基正在将过去不可想象的疯狂构想逐一落地。 - 争议判罚让二番战成为众望所归，市场价值远超双方的一番战。 - 里科将拉斯维加斯与麦迪逊广场花园视为终极梦想擂台，罗根称赞 MSG 具有不可复制的气场。 - 图尔基将“不可能”视为最大的行动动力，无论是时代广场还是金字塔对决，都在颠覆传统赛事选址。 ### [01:42:07](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=6127s) 格斗产业的黄金时代：资本、竞争与踢拳的破局契机 罗根指出，职业拳击长期以来的一大痼疾就是顶尖对决严重拖延，最典型的例子便是弗洛伊德·梅威瑟（Floyd Mayweather Jr.）与曼尼·帕奎奥（Manny Pacquiao）的世纪之战，谈判旷日持久，等两人真正开战时帕奎奥早已过了巅峰期，让无数拳迷扼腕叹息。如果当年就有图尔基和“利雅得季”（Riyadh Season）这样的资本与魄力介入，这场大战必然会在两位天王的巅峰期发生。在 MMA 领域，UFC 通过强势的赛事匹配机制避免了顶级选手互相回避，但职业选手的整体薪酬仍需进一步提升，唯有顶级赛事的报酬能够媲美篮球等主流商业联盟，才能吸引最顶尖的运动天才全身心投入格斗，而不是转投其他球类项目。 谈到当前格斗市场的版图变化，PFL 与 Bellator 的整合以及沙特资本对 MMA 赛事的注入，为拳手创造了更多选择与良性竞争环境。尽管 UFC 在大众认知中几乎成了综合格斗的代名词，但优质竞争者的壮大对运动员而言至关重要。两人感叹，相比于 20 年前综合格斗鲜为人知、直到 2005 年《终极斗士》（The Ultimate Fighter）第一季中斯特凡·邦纳（Stephan Bonnar）与福雷斯特·格里芬（Forrest Griffin）的血战才彻底引爆大众市场的年代，如今的格斗运动正处于历史最高峰。社交媒体的病毒式传播、杰克·保罗（Jake Paul）等网红跨界拳击带来的海量新观众，正在持续做大这块蛋糕。罗根感慨道，如果当年能有当今这种推广力度把处于巅峰期的荷兰踢拳传奇拉蒙·德克斯（Ramon Dekkers）推向美国大众视野，观众绝对会被那位技术全面、打法凶悍的“擂台野兽”彻底震撼。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 格斗产业发展驱动力演进图 accDescr: 展示资本力量、赛事竞争与破圈效应如何共同推动现代格斗产业走向历史巅峰。 subgraph Capital ["资本与推广破局"] T["沙特资本 / 利雅得季"] --> M["打破门派壁垒与僵局<br/>直接促成巅峰对决"] T --> O["超越传统选址限制<br/>（时代广场/金字塔构想）"] end subgraph League ["赛事生态与竞争"] UFC["UFC 统一规则与品牌认知<br/>（2005 TUF 破圈奠基）"] PFL["PFL 扩张与外部竞争"] UFC <--> PFL PFL --> F["为拳手提供更多选择与高额报酬"] end subgraph Culture ["流量与文化破局"] Influencer["网红跨界拳赛<br/>（如 Jake Paul）"] --> Eyes["引入数以百万计的年轻新受众"] Social["社交媒体病毒式传播"] --> Eyes end M --> Peak["格斗产业整体迈向历史最高峰<br/>（拳击 / MMA / 踢拳多维爆发）"] F --> Peak Eyes --> Peak ``` - 梅威瑟与帕奎奥的漫长拉锯战印证了传统拳击推广的弊端，资本的高效介入是解决选手互避的关键。 - 综合格斗在 2005 年通过 TUF 第 1 季决赛（格里芬对阵邦纳）才真正走入美国主流大众视野，踢拳未来同样有机会借势崛起。 - 网红跨界比赛虽然争议不断，但客观上为格斗运动导入了海量非传统核心拳迷，提升了整个行业的商业价值。 ### [01:45:40](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=6340s) 荷兰踢拳殿堂：地理优势、技术共享与狂热的现场文化 Joe Rogan 与 Rico Verhoeven 深入探讨了荷兰为何能成为全球踢拳（Kickboxing）无可争议的中心。荷兰诞生了一长串如雷贯耳的格斗巨星：Rob Kaman、Ernesto Hoost、Peter Aerts、Ramon Dekkers、Badr Hari 以及 Melvin Manhoef。对于一个人口仅约一千七百万左右的小国而言，能够源源不断孕育出统治格斗界的世界顶级冠军，堪称世界体育史上的一个奇迹。 Rico 解释道，荷兰之所以水平极高，核心原因在于国土面积狭小带来的高频交流与技术共享。所有顶级拳馆和选手彼此走动极为频繁，拳手们可以随时开车去另一家拳馆实战切磋，彼此毫无保留地交换格斗理念与情报。相比之下，在美国，如果想跨州去纽约等地训练，往往需要搭乘飞机并耗费大量时间与成本。这种高密度的交流直接造就了荷兰踢拳的超高整体水准。此外，这种紧凑的地理空间也解释了为什么付费点播（PPV）在荷兰根本行不通——拳迷们觉得坐在家里买 PPV 毫无意义，开上一小会儿车就能亲自抵达现场观战，这使得荷兰的格斗赛事总是座无虚席、场面极其宏大。在荷兰，踢拳甚至已经超越了大多数项目，成为仅次于足球的第二大运动。 - **顶尖荷兰踢拳传奇**：Rob Kaman、Ernesto Hoost、Peter Aerts、Ramon Dekkers、Badr Hari、Melvin Manhoef。 - **地理与技术生态**：极小的国土面积让跨馆交流（cross-sparring）成为家常便饭，技术的快速迭代拉高了全国选手的平均水准。 - **观赛文化**：车程极短导致观众偏好亲临现场，场馆动辄爆满，因而促成了大型现场赛事繁荣而 PPV 难以推广的特殊市场格局。 --- ### [01:48:38](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=6518s) 泰拳西进与荷兰格斗体系的规范化 在过去的四分之一世纪里，荷兰在踢拳领域一直实力强劲，但过去的踢拳圈子在主流大众眼中多少带有某种灰色边缘文化的色彩。直到最近十年，随着 Rico Verhoeven 和 Badr Hari 等巨星的世纪大战彻底引爆公众关注，这项运动才真正进入大众视野，全国上下为之自豪。伴随热潮而来的是拳馆的野蛮生长，一度到了任何普通人都能自封为踢拳教练的混乱地步；为此，荷兰官方推行了正规的资格认证和文凭制度，严格要求教练必须持证上岗。 谈到荷兰踢拳的起源，两人指出这要归功于老一代先驱远赴泰国汲取泰拳精髓。以 Ramon Dekkers 等人为代表的荷兰斗士深入泰国本土，像海绵一样吸收了纯正泰拳的内围技巧与凶狠打击技术，并将其带回荷兰，与欧式拳击及荷兰特有的高频组合拳融为一体，最终演化为威震世界的“荷兰式踢拳”（Dutch Kickboxing）。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 荷兰踢拳体系演进 accDescr: 展示老一辈拳手从泰国引进泰拳技术，融合本土拳击与高频交流，最终走向主流规范化的过程。 subgraph S1["技术融合"] A["赴泰学习纯正泰拳<br/>(肘膝打击/内围技术)"] --> B["融入欧式拳击与组合拳"] end subgraph S2["生态成熟"] B --> C["全荷拳馆高频实战交流<br/>(技术情报共享)"] C --> D["行业正规化与官方认证<br/>(持证执教体系)"] D --> E["巨星对决引爆主流市场<br/>(跻身全国第二大运动)"] end ``` --- ### [01:49:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=6597s) 擂台野兽 Ramon Dekkers：透支肉体的极致暴力 Joe Rogan 极为感慨地提到已故传奇 Ramon Dekkers。虽然 Dekkers 体型并不高大，但他直接杀入泰国本土，在全规则泰拳擂台上与泰国顶级高手以肘膝血战，那种场面堪称疯狂。Dekkers 的拳击技术极其爆炸，打法极度狂野且充满攻击性，浑身上下散发着野兽般的狂暴气息。他的每一次重拳击腹、低扫和迎面打击都全力以赴，仿佛每一击的目的都是彻底击毙对手。 Rico 回忆道，自己小时候看 Dekkers 的比赛录像时深受震撼，同时也感到毛骨悚然。Dekkers 的脚踝曾严重损伤，医生明确警告他如果再用那只脚踢击，就会彻底废掉甚至失去整只脚踝，但 Dekkers 仅仅是用胶布厚厚缠住就继续上台重扫对手。在生涯后期（如对阵 Duane Ludwig 时），他的脚踝几乎完全靠绷带固定悬吊着在战斗，小腿骨与关节直接硬碰硬撞在对手的膝盖和手肘防线阻挡上，光是看着就让人感到钻心的剧痛。这种将健康与生命置之度外的打法虽然铸就了不朽传奇，但也带来了残酷的代价——Dekkers 年纪轻轻便英年早逝。 > “每一击、每一次低扫、每一次爆肝拳、每一次迎面重击，全都毫无保留，全速爆发推进、粉碎对手……他的脚踝全靠胶带缠着，几乎只剩一根线悬着。” --- ### [01:51:37](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=6697s) 选手的健康代价、九年巅峰法则与次世代的权益 Dekkers 的悲剧引发了 Rico 和 Joe 对职业格斗本质的深思。格斗选手们本质上是在拿自己的长期健康冒着巨大风险为大众提供娱乐，而这种运动之所以令人血脉偾张，正是因为观众深知其潜藏的极致危险。正因如此，Rico 强烈呼吁整个行业必须建立透明、公正的裁判体系以及合理的报酬机制。很多人只看到明星选手单场赚得盆满钵满，却忽视了拳手无法像普通行业一样工作到 65 岁，他们的黄金赚钱周期极其短暂。 Joe 指出，搏击界专家普遍认为顶级选手的黄金巅峰期通常只有短短 9 年，一旦过了这扇窗口期，竞技状态便会急剧下滑。而 Rico Verhoeven 则是极其罕见的特例，他统治重量级长达 12 年以上，即便离开踢拳时依然处于绝对统治地位。但即便是像 Rico 这样的特例，也终究不可能打到 50 岁或 60 岁。观众买票是来看顶级拳手舍命对抗的，而不是看推广人或解说员。Rico 直言，自己如今已步入职业生涯的“冬季”，所争取的权益更多是为了下一代拳手：新一代拳手应该有底气投身格斗，并能在公平透明的环境下凭此建立起能够传承的世代财富。谈到诸如 MVP 与 PFL 合并等行业竞争时，两人一致认为竞争越多越好，只有赛事方相互竞逐，拳手才能拥有真正的选择权。 ### [01:54:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=6897s) 格斗赛事平台的多样性与拳手“人性化”包装 乔·罗根（Joe Rogan）与里科·范霍文（Rico Verhoeven）探讨了当前格斗行业中选手选择权的问题。两人一致认为，当选手只有一个赛事平台可选时，只能被迫接受“要么接受，要么走人”的被动局面，因此行业需要更多具备竞争力的顶级赛事。罗根指出，像 MVP（Most Valuable Promotions）以及 ONE Championship（ONE 冠军赛）这样的赛事如果能发展得更好，就能为拳手提供真正的替代选择，例如“大力鼠”狄米崔斯·约翰逊（Demetrious Johnson）转战 ONE 冠军赛便取得了巨大成功。罗根分析道，拳击与综合格斗（MMA）的商业逻辑截然不同：在拳击界，拳手的个人名气决定一切，观众为了看德米特里·比沃尔（Dmitry Bivol）或阿图尔·贝特比耶夫（Artur Beterbiev）的比赛买单，根本不在乎推广人是谁；但在 MMA 领域，观众往往只认 UFC 这一品牌，近期少数打破该壁垒的例子则是弗朗西斯·纳干诺（Francis Ngannou）等人参与的跨界大型对决，这证明了拳手个人号召力的价值。 里科借此强调了塑造拳手幕后故事的极端重要性。他认为，仅仅展示擂台或八角笼内的格斗技艺是远远不够的，推广方必须挖掘选手作为普通人的一面：他们走下擂台是谁？是否有孩子、是不是父亲、平时有什么爱好（例如下国际象棋）。这种立体的人性化塑造能让观众产生强烈共鸣，觉得“这家伙就像我隔壁的邻居，每天也送孩子上学”，从而在情感上深度绑定，发自内心地支持并希望选手获胜。罗根对此深表赞同，并坦言欧洲踢拳巨头 Glory（荣耀格斗）最大的短板正是缺乏这种叙事包装，他们长久以来只是一味奉行“安排最强对决（Best vs. Best）”的硬核路线，忽视了大众的情感连接。 - **拳击 vs. MMA 关注重心**：拳击看重拳手个人招牌（如 Bivol、Beterbiev），MMA 观众更忠于 UFC 赛事品牌。 - **情感投资机制**：通过展示家庭、育儿和日常生活细节，让顶尖斗士在观众眼中“去神化”并产生邻家共鸣，是提升票房号召力的关键。 --- ### [01:57:03](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7023s) 踢拳顶尖高手的技术断层与赛事推广瓶颈 尽管 Glory 缺乏煽情的剧情包装，罗根依然自称是其铁杆粉丝，每逢比赛必定通宵观看。然而，这种硬核站立技击在主流观众乃至部分 MMA 圈内仍极其小众，许多人甚至完全没听过 Glory。里科指出，业内真正的教练和行家心里非常清楚其含金量，顶尖 MMA 选手在备战 UFC 关键硬仗前，往往会专门高薪聘请 Glory 的踢拳手作为站立实战靶子，因为后者的纯站立水平绝对处于天花板级别。 罗根随后提到了 ONE 冠军赛在小量级站立格斗中的恐怖实力储备。例如击败了极真会馆出身、以凶狠低扫著称的日本名将与座优贵（Yuki Yoza）的乔纳森·哈格蒂（Jonathan Haggerty），以及罗根极为推崇的达吉斯坦不败奇才阿萨杜拉·伊曼加扎利耶夫（Asadula Imangazaliev）。罗根感叹达吉斯坦正在源源不断地向格斗界输送“纯粹的格斗杀手”，无论是在 ONE 冠军赛还是刚在 PFL 夺冠的达吉斯坦选手，他们身高臂长，精通诡谲的问号踢（Question Mark Kick）与精准如刺刀般的正蹬，站立打击极度丝滑致命。然而，里科与罗根也指出了现实的残酷：无论是 ONE 还是 Glory，在亚洲或欧洲虽然火爆，但一直无法真正打入美国主流市场。资方为了开拓北美市场持续疯狂砸钱，但在看不到资金回流拐点的情况下，投资人的耐心正在经受巨大考验。 - **顶级站立选手的陪练价值**：UFC 顶级备战营常年依靠 Glory 纯站立高手来拔高选手的打击技术。 - **达吉斯坦站立新星风格**：以 135 磅的 Asadula Imangazaliev 为代表，身材修长、不败战绩，以极其隐蔽的问号踢和前蹬腿统治小量级。 --- ### [01:59:05](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7145s) 罗根婉拒掌舵 Glory 与白大拿进军拳击的行业震荡 谈及 Glory 的经营困境，罗根透露了一个鲜为人知的幕后秘闻：Glory 高层曾正式邀请罗根加盟，希望他能出任赛事的“掌门人”，成为“Glory 的白大拿（Dana White）”。面对这份邀约，罗根直接笑着回绝了：“我根本没有那个时间！”里科打趣说，幸好罗根没借口说“没钱”，否则任谁都不会相信。罗根由衷佩服白大拿的工作强度，他表示白大拿是格斗史上最伟大的推广人，每天 24 小时高强度连轴转，应对层出不穷的谈判、临时取消的比赛、发布会和危机公关；而自己如果做不到全情投入，绝不会半吊子地去接手一项全职的推广人工作。 话题随即转向白大拿正准备涉足的拳击业务（Zuffa Boxing）。里科与罗根认为，虽然拳击界传统势力对新外来者充满戒备，但白大拿的金字招牌和资本运作只会把整个蛋糕做大，尽管目前拳击手拿到的天价报酬让不少 MMA 选手感到眼红甚至吃醋。里科畅想未来是否可能出现 UFC 选手在休赛期无缝跨界参加 Zuffa 拳击赛的模式。对此，罗根保持着谨慎态度。罗根以康纳·麦格雷戈（Conor McGregor）跨界对决弗洛伊德·梅威瑟（Floyd Mayweather Jr.）为例指出，像麦克斯·霍洛威（Max Holloway）这样的当家巨星一旦抽身打拳击，就必须进行长达一年的专项封闭训练；而彻底剥离摔跤、柔术与踢拳的肌肉记忆后，选手的身体机能和战术直觉会被打乱，重新切回综合格斗的成本极高，康纳后期状态的下滑很大程度上正是源于这种跨界导致的训练脱节。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 拳手跨界拳击训练脱节影响 accDescr: 展示综合格斗选手转型拳击导致原有战术体系受损的循环影响 subgraph S1["全心转型拳击阶段"] A["停止摔跤与缠斗训练"] --> B["暂停踢拳与下肢攻防"] B --> C["专项打磨拳法与拳击步法"] end subgraph S2["重返 MMA 赛场的代价"] C --> D["肌肉记忆与距离感单一化"] D --> E["防摔与下肢防守反应迟钝"] E --> F["需要极其漫长的大脑重新校准"] end ``` --- ### [02:01:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7306s) 伤病转型与低扫踢（Calf Kick）的致命演变 尽管跨界面临技术体系重置的风险，但罗根和里科指出，拳击对于那些膝盖遭受严重创伤的老将来说，不失为延续职业寿命的理想退路。MMA 和踢拳中存在大量破坏下肢关节的技术，例如缠斗时的扭转力矩、侧踹膝关节（斜踢）以及近年来彻底改变站立格局的胫骨小腿低扫（Calf Kick）。 两人特别探讨了小腿低扫的技术演变。令人惊讶的是，这种毁灭性的打击方式在格斗界沉寂了多年，直到最近几年才在 UFC 和踢拳擂台上爆发式普及。里科强调，小腿低扫是一把双刃剑，如果发力角度出现微小偏差直接踢在对手坚硬的迎面骨（胫骨）上，往往会导致踢击者自身断腿，那很可能是踢击者踢出的最后一腿。但如果运用得当，其破坏力足以瞬间瘫痪对手的下肢神经。罗根特别提到了亚历克斯·佩雷拉（Alex Pereira）的“神级”小腿踢：佩雷拉在出腿时没有任何身体预兆（No Tell），根本不需要转跨或换步蓄力，直接用脚部侧翼随意甩出。对手往往只挨了两三腿，整条腿的神经和肌肉便彻底失去支撑功能，不得不狼狈换架。两人感叹，这种完全没有征兆的纯技术击打，正是现代站立格斗中最令人胆寒的武器之一。 - **小腿低扫的高风险与高回报**：击中比目鱼肌/腓总神经可快速致残对手机动性，但若踢中胫骨极易导致自身骨折。 - **佩雷拉的低扫绝技**：无前摇、无转体征兆，看似轻描淡写却能在数回合内彻底摧毁对手的下肢神经反应。 ### [02:02:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7378s) 小腿卡夫踢的威力、后遗症与MMA技术演进 两人由日本踢拳新星与座优贵（Yuki Yoza）凌厉的低扫踢展开了讨论。乔·罗根对这位出身极真会馆（Kyokushin）的年轻拳手赞不绝口，指出他在每一轮交锋中都在疯狂扫击对手的小腿内侧与外侧，完全展现了极真流硬朗扎实、持续内外交替砍击的标志性风格。里科·范霍文随即抛出了一个他与教练近期深入探讨的敏感话题：卡夫踢（Calf kick，小腿低扫）在极度致命的同时，一旦被其重创KO，往往会造成极其漫长且难以彻底康复的神经和肌肉软组织损伤，这种伤病甚至会伴随选手很长一段时间，那么这种技术是否真的应该被允许存在于赛场之中？ 面对里科的疑虑，罗根态度坚决地表示卡夫踢“百分之百应该保留”。罗根笑着反驳道：“如果你在规则下可以用膝十字固（Kneebar）、可以用足跟勾（Heel hook）去活活撕碎对手的膝关节，那你当然应该被允许踢他的小腿。”他认为卡夫踢彻底重塑了站立格斗的格局，剥夺了一大批以往习惯将身体重心深压在前腿上的选手的生存空间。康纳·麦格雷戈（Conor McGregor）就是最典型的受害者——在康纳离开八角笼去打弗洛伊德·梅威瑟、对阵哈比布·努尔马戈梅多夫并重新回归MMA的空档期，卡夫踢席卷了整个联盟；当达斯汀·普瓦里尔（Dustin Poirier）在二番战首回合连续砍中康纳的前腿后，到了第二回合康纳的前腿就已经发飘颤抖、步履蹒跚，直接导致了他的溃败。 但卡夫踢本身也是一把极度危险的双刃剑。罗根与里科谈到，低扫踢一旦被对手精准提膝防守（Check），自身脆弱的胫骨下段迎面撞上对手膝关节下方最坚硬、最粗壮的骨骼厚实区域，就极容易酿成断腿惨剧。克里斯·韦德曼（Chris Weidman）当年就是在全力踢出一记势大力沉的低扫被防住后，小腿骨当场折断。尽管风险极高，罗根依然坚持卡夫踢具有极高的战术价值与防守破解手段，理应继续留在规则内。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 现代格斗中卡夫踢的技术演进与攻防机制 accDescr: 展示卡夫踢对传统站架的克制以及防守格挡伴随的双向高风险 subgraph Attack["攻击机制 (Offensive)"] A["精准砍击小腿外侧/内侧肌腹"] --> B["损伤腓总神经与深层肌肉"] B --> C["前腿承重崩溃、丧失移动与平衡能力"] end subgraph Defense["防守与反噬 (Defensive Check)"] D["提膝格挡 (Check)"] --> E["用膝下高密度胫骨迎击"] E --> F["进攻方低段胫骨撞击骨折"] end subgraph Impact["战术格局演化"] C --> G["终结传统重重心压前腿拳击站架<br/>(如 Conor McGregor 受制于 Dustin Poirier)"] end ``` --- ### [02:05:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7506s) 终结职业生涯的膝部侧踢与职业记忆力 真正让罗根感到不安和反感的，并非卡夫踢，而是直接针对膝关节正前方的斜踢与侧踢（Oblique kicks & Side kicks to the knee）。罗根提到了哈利勒·朗特里（Khalil Rountree Jr.）对阵莫德斯塔斯·布考斯卡斯（Modestas Bukauskas）的那场惨烈比赛：朗特里迎面一记低位侧踢直踹布考斯卡斯的前腿膝盖，直接将对方整条腿踹到向侧面严重反折扭曲，布考斯卡斯痛苦惨叫倒地，赛后不得不接受复杂的膝关节重建手术。类似惨剧还包括乔恩·琼斯（Jon Jones）在对决蒂亚戈·桑托斯（Thiago Santos）时，用持续不断的斜踢硬生生摧毁了桑托斯的双膝，导致桑托斯赛后双腿膝盖全部动刀。此外，罗根还提到沙夫卡特·拉赫莫诺夫（Shavkat Rakhmonov）遭遇伊恩·加里（Ian Garry）类似的膝部踩踢后，左膝严重受损并接受了二次手术，长期无法回归赛场。 里科看着回放画面中腿部反折的特写，忍不住直呼“太残忍了”。他认为这种动作极具毁灭性，往往一脚就能彻底毁掉一名拳手的一整年黄金期甚至整个职业生涯，而拳手的巅峰寿命本来就只有寥寥数年。罗根坦言自己对此十分矛盾：从竞技逻辑上讲，选手应该学习如何防范并化解这种已知技术的威胁，但半月板、前交叉韧带（ACL）和内侧副韧带（MCL）被彻底撕裂的不可逆风险实在太高，使其成为最具争议的“职业终结技”（Career ender）。 里科随后转移了焦点，由衷惊叹罗根对于多年前各种细节比赛、选手姓名和伤情经过的记忆力竟如此信手拈来。罗根打趣地自嘲道，自己生活中的其他琐事往往忘得一干二净，但在格斗运动上却拥有极其敏锐的偏执记忆。 - **核心受害者与案例**： - 哈利勒·朗特里 vs. 莫德斯塔斯·布考斯卡斯：低位侧踢直击膝关节，致使韧带完全撕裂并引发术后长期休战。 - 乔恩·琼斯 vs. 蒂亚戈·桑托斯：斜踢持续破坏双膝，导致桑托斯双腿膝盖均需接受大型重建韧带手术。 - 核心争议点：防守责任 vs. 保护运动员免受不可逆创伤。 --- ### [02:07:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7653s) 地面膝击争议、铁笼与斜坡擂台的物理维度 在谈及格斗规则的边界时，两人进一步探讨了对“倒地对手头部实施膝击”（Knees to the head of a grounded opponent）以及足球踢、踩踏的合理性。罗根明确支持放开对抱腿蜷缩选手的头部膝击。他指出，许多摔跤手在抱腿摔失败后直接将头贴在地垫上缩成胎儿姿态死抱不放（Turtle position），当前的规则过度保护了这种消极防守；如果防守方的膝关节处于自由活动状态，理应被允许直接膝击对方头部，迫使倒地抱腿者做出攻防调整，而不是把规则当成避难所。 这种攻击方式的安全性又与格斗场地息息相关。罗根分析道： - 在围绳擂台（Ring）中，选手即便倒地，由于围绳富有弹性且身体下方留有滑动空间，承受膝击或足球踢时有一定缓冲与退让余地。 - 在八角笼（Cage）内，铁网是一堵坚硬的物理死墙，选手一旦被逼入死角，头部将直接抵在铁网或垫子上，硬吃膝击极易造成严重颅脑创伤。 罗根进而提出了对Karate Combat所采用的斜坡凹坑擂台（The Pit）的看法。他认为斜坡碗状设计去掉了垂直的铁丝网，倒地者无法再依靠笼网爬起（Wall walk）。如今在八角笼体系下，许多MMA选手专门把后背贴在墙上苦练“靠墙壶铃起立”（Kettlebell get-ups），将笼网变成了赖以起身的物理支点。而在斜坡边缘，摔倒的人毫无借力支撑点，虽然靠近斜坡边缘容易滑倒踉跄，但在真实攻防的公平性上远胜过冰冷的八角笼铁网。 里科则指出了传统围绳擂台的致命缺陷：拳手很容易在缠抱或被击倒时直接穿过围绳摔出台外。传奇拳王伯纳德·霍普金斯（Bernard Hopkins）在生涯谢幕战对阵小乔·史密斯（Joe Smith Jr.）时，就是被重拳打穿围绳跌落台下、头颅着地导致比赛遗憾终结。罗根赞同这是赛事组织的保护失职，围绳擂台应当在四周铺设更宽阔的防护跳板（Apron）与软垫。最后两人达成共识：八角笼在拳迷心中树立了无可替代的血性象征——“关上铁门、无处可逃”的心态带来了独一无二的张力；正如纯粹的拳击、纯粹的踢拳与纯粹的泰拳一样，每种格斗形式与其限定规则都各自孕育出了不可替代的极致技艺与魅力。 ### [02:11:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7872s) 站立格斗的推广、白大拿与扇耳光大赛 乔·罗根与里科·范霍文探讨了格斗赛事的整体生态。罗根提到 UFC 目前不仅推广综合格斗，还在大力推进 UFC 巴西柔术（BJJ）的高级别对决，这证明多元化的单项格斗赛事完全有市场。罗根表示自己一直给白大拿（Dana White）发送精彩的自由搏击比赛片段，极力劝说白大拿涉足踢拳领域，认为踢拳的发展契机就在眼前。 然而，范霍文和罗根一致认为白大拿目前精力有限、分身乏术，特别是他还全情投入于强力扇耳光联盟（Power Slap）。谈到扇耳光比赛，范霍文忍不住笑出声，感叹这种比赛虽然看着过瘾，但选手们双手背在身后、握着把手，只能站在原地硬生生挨巴掌，没有任何闪躲或滑步防守的空间。罗根也调侃说，愿意站在那里任由别人重重抽在脸上的选手绝对是“极其凶悍的猛兽”。 --- ### [02:12:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7924s) 拳击作为艺术：12回合的杰作与大师级防守 范霍文话锋一转，分享了自己涉足职业拳击后的深切体会。他感慨自由搏击是自己的根基，给予了他现在的一切，但踢拳节奏极快、更凶猛、更残酷，即便是冠军战也只有五个回合，丢掉一回合就面临巨大危机。相比之下，他真正将拳击视作一门艺术：“你有整整12个回合去绘制属于你的大师杰作。”范霍文以比沃尔（Dmitry Bivol）对阵贝特比耶夫（Artur Beterbiev）的对决为例，比赛初期贝特比耶夫表现极佳，场面看似对另一方非常不利，但比沃尔凭借出色的局间战术调整最终逆转局面，这种深层的博弈正是拳击的迷人之处。 罗根表示赞同，指出真正懂拳击的人能体会到顶级防守的纯粹美感，例如巅峰时期的弗洛伊德·梅威瑟（Floyd Mayweather）。与那些四处游走逃跑的拳手不同，梅威瑟敢于直接站在对手面前咫尺之间，对手却无论如何都打不中他。范霍文补充道，这正是他欣赏卡内洛·阿尔瓦雷斯（Canelo Álvarez）的原因——在输给梅威瑟之后，卡内洛完成了惊人的技术蜕变，将梅威瑟展现出的头部晃动与闪躲技巧完全吸收并应用到自己的体系中。罗根引用前 UFC 双冠王丹尼尔·科米尔（Daniel Cormier）的观点总结道：只要与最顶级的精英交手，无论胜负平，你都会受到“精英光环的熏陶”（get the rub），从对手身上汲取顶级技艺。 --- ### [02:14:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=8054s) 推动二番战谈判与格斗殿堂的赞誉 随着播客进入尾声，两人讨论起范霍文下一场比赛的动向。罗根笑称希望这期播客能够“播下种子”，甚至希望沙特总娱乐局主席图尔基·阿尔谢赫阁下（His Excellency Turki Alalshikh）在听到节目后能够重启谈判。范霍文透露，就在大约一周到十天前，双方团队曾进行过一次泛泛的接触，讨论接下来的规划；当他明确表态想要二番战时，对方的回应是这需要双方意愿达成一致。 罗根打趣地建议，如果想促成与奥历山大·乌西克（Oleksandr Usyk）的比赛，沙特方面只需“直接把布林克斯（Brinks）装甲押运车倒进乌西克家门口”，门一开露出整车黄金，车上再印上范霍文的名字和头像。玩笑过后，罗根郑重地向范霍文致敬，称赞他在上一场比赛中的惊艳发挥与整个生涯的非凡成就，直言范霍文是“有史以来最伟大的重量级踢拳选手”。 范霍文对此深受感动，表示罗根多年来跨联盟深入观察所有顶尖格斗赛事的专业地位，让这番赞赏对他而言“重逾千斤”。罗根回忆自己看完那场对决后立刻激动地给范霍文发信息交流，最后再次衷心祝愿他能顺利拿下二番战，两人在热烈而真挚的道别声中结束了本期播客录制。 ## Notable quotes > [01:46](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=106s) It felt so injust — Rico Verhoeven > [19:53](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1193s) 你到底是不是这个星球上最狠的人（baddest motherfucker on earth）。 — Joe Rogan > [29:17](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1757s) 听着，我们现在必须全力去赢下接下来的每一个回合。 — Peter Fury > [31:34](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=1894s) 我不在乎他做得有多好，我只对自己负责，是我自己犯错送给了他们机会。 — Rico Verhoeven > [01:07:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4074s) 乔，说实话，在世界最顶尖的层面上，每个人都在拼命苦练，对吧？我也只是极其努力地训练而已。但我认为最根本的区别在于心理层面——当你开始感到疲惫、当身体向你发出力竭信号的那一刻，你的大脑究竟如何去消化和应对它？ — Rico Verhoeven > [01:15:59](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4559s) 绝对不能让自己彻底走形脱离训练（can't get out of shape）。 — Joe Rogan > [01:18:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=4706s) 我虽然不想做，但我必须去做；因为如果我在最抗拒的日子里都能咬牙完成，那么其他日子就会变得轻而易举 — Rico Verhoeven > [01:29:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=5363s) 那帮人到底想让他怎么样？他当时是在卫冕重量级腰带，眼睛被人狠狠戳中，根本他妈什么都看不见了！在那之后他甚至不得不接受了两次眼部手术！ — Joe Rogan > [01:49:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=6597s) 每一击、每一次低扫、每一次爆肝拳、每一次迎面重击，全都毫无保留，全速爆发推进、粉碎对手……他的脚踝全靠胶带缠着，几乎只剩一根线悬着。 — Joe Rogan > [02:02:58](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7378s) 如果你在规则下可以用膝十字固（Kneebar）、可以用足跟勾（Heel hook）去活活撕碎对手的膝关节，那你当然应该被允许踢他的小腿。 — Joe Rogan > [02:12:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ&t=7924s) 你有整整12个回合去绘制属于你的大师杰作。 — Rico Verhoeven ## Mentioned Joe Rogan, Rico Verhoeven, Oleksandr Usyk, GLORY, UFC, Jamal Ben Saddik, Daniel Dubois, Fabio Wardley, Tyson Fury, Deontay Wilder, Alistair Overeem, Jason Statham, Anthony Joshua, Road House 2, Jake Paul, Eddie Hearn, Turki Alalshikh, WBC, Alex Pereira, Islam Makhachev, Zuffa, ONE Championship, Derrick Lewis, Agit Kabayel, Peter Fury, Moses Itauma, Dennis Krauweel, James Branch, Badr Hari, Cain Velasquez, Bernard Hopkins, Jake Gyllenhaal, Dave Bautista, Aldis Hodge, Gerard Butler, O'Shea Jackson Jr., Den of Thieves 2: Pantera, Tom Aspinall, Ciryl Gane, Trevor Wittman, Onyx Sports, Jon Jones, Francis Ngannou, Terence Crawford, Canelo Álvarez, PFL, Bellator, Ramon Dekkers, Rob Kaman, Ernesto Hoost, Peter Aerts, Melvin Manhoef, Demetrious Johnson, Dmitry Bivol, Artur Beterbiev, Jonathan Haggerty, Yuki Yoza, Asadula Imangazaliev, Dana White, Conor McGregor, Floyd Mayweather Jr., Max Holloway, Dustin Poirier, Chris Weidman, Khalil Rountree Jr., Modestas Bukauskas, Thiago Santos, Shavkat Rakhmonov, Ian Garry, Karate Combat, Joe Smith Jr., Power Slap, Daniel Cormier ## Video description Joe sits down with professional boxer, kickboxer, and mixed martial artist Rico Verhoeven. https://www.youtube.com/@RicoVerhoeven https://ricoverhoeven.com Perplexity: Download the app or ask Perplexity anything at https://pplx.ai/rogan. Visit https://squarespace.com/ROGAN to save 10% off your first purchase of a website or domain. This video is sponsored by BetterHelp. Visit https://BetterHelp.com/JRE [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=y9KNLlRE2HQ)

[1:46] Rico Verhoeven: It felt so injust [19:53] Joe Rogan: 你到底是不是这个星球上最狠的人（baddest motherfucker on earth）。 [29:17] Peter Fury: 听着，我们现在必须全力去赢下接下来的每一个回合。 [31:34] Rico Verhoeven: 我不在乎他做得有多好，我只对自己负责，是我自己犯错送给了他们机会。 [67:54] Rico Verhoeven: 乔，说实话，在世界最顶尖的层面上，每个人都在拼命苦练，对吧？我也只是极其努力地训练而已。但我认为最根本的区别在于心理层面——当你开始感到疲惫、当身体向你发出力竭信号的那一刻，你的大脑究竟如何去消化和应对它？ [75:59] Joe Rogan: 绝对不能让自己彻底走形脱离训练（can't get out of shape）。 [78:26] Rico Verhoeven: 我虽然不想做，但我必须去做；因为如果我在最抗拒的日子里都能咬牙完成，那么其他日子就会变得轻而易举 [89:23] Joe Rogan: 那帮人到底想让他怎么样？他当时是在卫冕重量级腰带，眼睛被人狠狠戳中，根本他妈什么都看不见了！在那之后他甚至不得不接受了两次眼部手术！ [109:57] Joe Rogan: 每一击、每一次低扫、每一次爆肝拳、每一次迎面重击，全都毫无保留，全速爆发推进、粉碎对手……他的脚踝全靠胶带缠着，几乎只剩一根线悬着。 [122:58] Joe Rogan: 如果你在规则下可以用膝十字固（Kneebar）、可以用足跟勾（Heel hook）去活活撕碎对手的膝关节，那你当然应该被允许踢他的小腿。 [132:04] Rico Verhoeven: 你有整整12个回合去绘制属于你的大师杰作。

[4:12] Rico Verhoeven: Everybody wants transparency... the referee is still a person, he can make a mistake... but there should be people or a situation where it's like, 'Hey, sorry ref, but you made a mistake.' We can overturn it in a split second. [51:06] Joe Rogan: He is still the greatest one-punch knockout artist in the history of the sport, because you never know what's going to happen when he fights. [62:01] Rico Verhoeven: Peter Fury has been telling me to get more on the side for years. But how as a kickboxer am I gonna be more on the side? They're gonna kick my leg off... Now Peter was super happy because now finally he could teach me boxing to box. [66:01] Rico Verhoeven: We got so many more tools in the toolbox that we can pull out... if we're going to fight Usyk again, it's going to be slightly different. But basically the strategy worked well. [77:05] Rico Verhoeven: I take a certain emotional pain and I use that to put it in physical pain so I can use it as fuel for what I do in the ring... But I feel like personally in relationships and just in general in living, I think that's not the way to cope with it. [82:08] Rico Verhoeven: He comes to my fights, I visit him on set... he has a certain focus on what he sees... 'I don't want you to die, and I want you to do this.' [87:08] Rico Verhoeven: For me, it doesn't make any sense to go around the bush or whatever and go backwards financially... that's not really how the UFC works. [89:27] Joe Rogan: He literally was knuckled deep in his eyes... He got fouled. It's not because of a punch... the fight should have been stopped. [99:39] Joe Rogan: There's something you feel different when they say 'Live from Madison Square Garden.' You're like, oh shit. [105:15] Joe Rogan: Every shot, every leg kick, every liver shot, every punch to the face—everything was just full speed ahead, power explosion, smash. [121:01] Joe Rogan: If you can knee bar a guy, you can heel hook a guy, you can rip his knee apart—you've got to be able to calf kick. [134:11] Rico Verhoeven: It really, really, really means the world coming from you because you're an expert... You know where to place certain guys from history and from now.

[0:01] Joe Rogan podcast. Check it out. [0:04] >> The Joe Rogan Experience. [0:06] >> TRAIN BY DAY. JOE ROGAN PODCAST BY [0:08] NIGHT. All day. [0:13] >> All right. Good to see you, champ. [0:15] >> Yes, sir. [0:15] >> We were just trying to figure out how [0:17] long it's been. How what year? When was [0:18] the last one we did together? I think it [0:20] was 2017. [0:22] Almost 10 years. [0:23] >> Yeah. [0:23] >> Or maybe might have been 16. [0:25] >> Yeah, I think. Yes. [0:27] >> Was it really? [0:28] >> 19. No. [0:30] >> Number 71. [0:31] >> Wow. [0:31] >> Yeah. The data. [laughter] [0:34] >> He's got it. I like [0:37] >> Maybe we just got punched to the head a [0:39] little bit too. [0:40] >> A little bit. [laughter] Well, listen, [0:41] man. Uh I want to tell you that uh that [0:44] fight with Usyk was one of the craziest [0:48] things that I've ever seen in my life. [0:50] Never in my life did I think a guy who [0:53] would go straight from kickboxing. Did [0:55] you have any professional boxing [0:57] matches? [0:57] >> One. one one professional. [1:00] >> I've been boxing for 15 years, [1:02] >> of course. Well, also, you're arguably [1:04] the greatest kickboxer of all time. [1:06] >> Thank you. Thank you. Appreciate that. [1:07] >> And you have a fight with arguably the [1:10] greatest boxer in the heavyweight [1:13] division ever. He's in the conversation [1:15] >> 100% [1:15] >> 100% in the conversation of the greatest [1:17] boxer in the heavyweight division ever. [1:19] >> And you won 10 [ __ ] rounds, man. You [1:23] won 10 rounds. [1:24] >> Yeah. So close to that. Yeah. I mean, I [1:26] don't give a [ __ ] what those judges were [1:28] saying. Those judges are trying to say [1:30] it was close. Like, it was almost like [1:32] you were up. I think one of them had you [1:33] up by one round and what the other ones [1:35] had a draw. [1:36] >> Yeah, it I think that's [1:38] >> that's a crime. If that went to the [1:40] scorecards and somehow another you lost [1:42] that decision, that would have been a [1:44] crime. A crime. [1:46] >> I know. And I got to be honest, I think [1:49] like we're we're just straight jumping [1:52] into it. So, and like uh I think that's [1:55] that's the hard part of it. It like [1:58] I don't like losing, but I don't if it [2:00] happens, it happens. But I think that's [2:04] the part that [clears throat] makes it [2:06] even harder that I It felt so injust and [2:11] >> it felt injust. The stoppage felt [2:12] injust. It didn't seem make like it made [2:14] sense. Like they were looking for a way [2:16] to stop the fight. [2:17] >> Exactly. But next to that, like [2:21] you say this as a combat sports [2:25] commentator for years and pray you've [2:27] been doing you've been in the sport for [2:28] so many years and all other professional [2:31] boxers and commentators etc. They all [2:34] see the fight a certain way like you saw [2:36] it like how I experienced it and then [2:39] when we look at the scorecards [2:43] we we get like a totally different fight [2:45] like what but what is going on there and [2:47] that is for me where the the the the [2:52] toughness is of of the whole experience [2:54] >> right the it's very difficult to accept [2:57] and if you had lost by decision it would [2:59] have been insanity and we've seen those [3:01] insane decisions before and I never know [3:03] what's going on. You know, I don't want [3:05] to think it's corruption, but it's [3:07] almost worse if it's incompetence. If [3:09] you have someone who's judging a fight, [3:11] which is like the most pivotal fight [3:14] arguably of your career, you think about [3:16] how long you've been reigning as the [3:18] heavyweight champion of kickboxing [3:20] >> for like a decade, which is crazy at the [3:23] highest level. Like, especially at the [3:25] heavyweight division, it is so hard to [3:26] stay at the top. [3:27] >> Yeah. [3:28] >> Nobody does. Everybody's like, even in [3:30] the UFC, it's like one, two fights, then [3:33] they they fall off. [3:34] >> Yeah. [3:34] >> For you to be the heavyweight champion [3:36] and have [ __ ] wars like Jamal Ben [3:38] Sadi, that fight like some of these [3:40] fights, you've had wars and to come out [3:43] on top every single [ __ ] time. [3:45] >> Yeah. [3:45] >> And then you have this enormous fight [3:48] and you have terrible judging. [3:50] >> Yeah. [3:51] >> Terrible judging. And it's like [3:53] >> it's almost worse if it's incompetence [3:55] because if you've got these people that [3:57] don't know what they're watching and [3:59] their calling like their eyes, their [4:02] decision makes a difference. But whether [4:04] it's a W or an L and it doesn't make any [4:07] sense. It's not fair. It's not right. I [4:10] think at this point in time they should [4:12] really seriously consider having [4:14] alternative scoring. I think there [4:16] should be [4:17] >> more. One of the things I like about [4:19] Glory is that Glory has more than three [4:21] judges. [4:22] >> What do they have? Four or five? [4:25] >> Five, I believe. [4:26] >> Five. I think five is the right number. [4:27] I think three is too few. [4:29] >> Yeah, [4:29] >> cuz you could have two people [ __ ] it up [4:31] and one person gets it right. And then [4:33] But if you had two more judges, the odds [4:35] are they're going to get it right, too. [4:36] The usually the people that [ __ ] it up, [4:38] it's the minority. [4:39] >> Yeah. But if you ask me like next to um [4:45] us as athletes putting our health on the [4:48] line which makes it very very hard thing [4:52] to cope with but also for the people [4:55] watching the fight [4:56] >> right [4:56] >> it's like it like you said it feels [4:59] injust and I definitely feel like [5:03] especially in the time that we're in now [5:06] everybody wants transparency. If we look [5:08] at the World Cup that just finished, [5:11] like even there when something happens, [5:16] the referee is still a person. He can [5:19] make like a mistake. He can look at at [5:21] the foul and like [snorts] [5:23] >> I saw it this way, but now what they're [5:25] doing, they're looking at the VAR. [5:26] They're looking at the cameras and [5:28] multiple people are looking at it and [5:31] like, hey, we can inter interpret it the [5:34] the rules like this because this [5:36] happened. we can see this and this is [5:39] wrong. Yeah. So even it's going to be a [5:42] card or it's going to be a penalty or [5:45] whatever there is. This is what what's [5:47] happening but within this situation [5:50] it's just like if if you ask me and it's [5:53] still possible it's a human being the [5:55] referee made a mistake and that is [5:59] possible but there should be people or a [6:01] situation where it's like hey sorry ref [6:04] but you made a mistake. this is this [6:07] wasn't the right call. So, we can [6:09] overturn it in a split of a second. [6:11] >> The only thing that's really hard to do [6:13] with that subjectively is fight [6:15] stoppages. Because sometimes, at least [6:18] in MMA, a referee sees things in a [6:22] fighter that you might not see things [6:24] watching it on television or sitting at [6:26] my seat as a commentator. A referee will [6:29] see a guy's eyes roll back in his head. [6:31] He'll see something that I don't see and [6:33] I'll go, "Oh, I thought that was a [6:34] little quick." other and then but [6:36] they're right on top of it. They see [6:39] they see certain things that you might [6:40] not be able [6:41] >> Yeah. But that's the thing we uh I [6:44] appealed it. I appealed it. [6:46] >> Mhm. [6:47] >> And and everything we appealed upon we [6:51] got they said like you guys were right. [6:54] We got stopped after the bell. [6:55] >> Yes. [6:56] >> The right after the after the stoppage [6:59] the doctor came. He I wasn't [7:01] disorientated. um didn't have no [7:04] concussion or whatever symptoms. So [7:06] everything everything we we got they [7:10] they were like, "No, you're right. [7:11] You're right. You're right." But [7:13] >> they never overturned. [7:14] >> They never overturned. [7:15] >> Well, also, how would they overturn it? [7:17] Would they go to the judge's scorecards? [7:18] And if they did go to the judge's [7:20] scorecards, what would it be? A majority [7:21] draw? Cuz if if you are down or you're [7:25] you're uh even on both cards and then up [7:28] on one and then did they count the [7:31] knockdowns in the the the final round? [7:34] Because if they did, you might have lost [7:35] that fight which is even crazier. [7:37] >> Yeah. But then but then you have [7:39] something like, "Hey guys, let's look at [7:42] the the scoring cards again and let like [7:45] and other people other judges look at [7:47] the scorecards and look at the fight and [7:49] score it again because [7:51] >> Well, here's what you know doesn't make [7:52] any sense. [7:53] >> Here's where you know it's crazy. It was [7:54] the most competitive fight of Usyk's [7:56] career as a heavyweight champion. Yeah. [7:58] >> And they're not even talking at all [7:59] about a rematch. [8:00] >> No. [8:01] >> That's kind of crazy, right? Isn't that [8:03] kind of crazy? They're saying Deontay [8:04] Wilder, which all love to Deontay, [8:07] >> but Deontay is not Deontay Wilder of [8:10] 2019. No, he's a different guy now. [8:13] >> That's a good That's a good thing that [8:14] you just brought that up because [8:16] >> before this fight, you heard the whole [8:19] conversation. Okay, we're going to do [8:22] Rico. After that, I want to fight the [8:24] the winner of Dubois Wardley, and after [8:27] that, I want to fight Tyson Fury again. [8:29] >> Right. [8:31] the other the other two are not in the [8:33] conversation anymore. So [8:36] >> without taking too much credit for it, I [8:38] think like with this fight, he saw like [8:41] this was a little harder than I [8:43] expected. So let's take it let's take a [8:47] different route. And for me, I don't [8:49] want a rematch just to have the rematch. [8:53] >> I would like the rematch because it [8:55] makes sense. There's a story within this [8:58] rematch. It's huge [8:59] >> and it's something that [9:01] >> it is unfinished business. [9:03] >> Yes. [9:04] >> And [snorts] for me, [9:04] >> it's a Rocky store. A real live Rocky [9:06] store. [9:06] >> 100%. And that's why for me what I'm [9:09] looking at now, I'm like in the fall of [9:10] my or maybe in the winter of my career [9:13] as an athlete [9:14] >> and I just want to do big fights that [9:17] make sense. And then you're like, "Ooh, [9:20] this is what I want to see." [9:21] >> And not only that, as a promoter, what [9:23] makes more sense than that fight? Yeah. [9:26] >> The Deontay Wilder fight. Again, all [9:28] respect to Deontay. I love that guy. [9:29] He's one of the greatest knockout [9:30] artists in the history of the [9:31] heavyweight division. He's not the same [9:33] guy. [9:33] >> No, [9:34] >> he's not the same guy for whatever [9:36] reason. Just It happens to everybody, [9:37] right? I think he's 40 now, right? It [9:39] happens to everybody. [9:41] >> You just got off of a crazy performance. [9:45] >> Yeah. [9:46] >> And the whole world got to see it. If [9:47] any fight warrants a rematch, it's that [9:50] fight. [9:50] >> Yeah. [9:51] >> That [ __ ] rematch would be gigantic. [9:54] It would be so huge. It's the ultimate [9:56] Rocky story. I was watching that fight [9:58] on the edge of my seat. [10:01] >> The fight starts, I'm like, "How's this [10:03] going to go down? How's this going to go [10:04] down?" I'm like, "Whoa." First of all, [10:05] I'm like, "Holy [ __ ] Rico's [ __ ] [10:07] huge." [laughter] Like, you realize how [10:09] big you are. [10:10] >> And you know, Usyk is a cruiserweight. [10:12] He's a cruiser to put on weight to [10:14] become. [10:15] >> He could still make cruiser if he wanted [10:17] to. If he wanted to get really lean, he [10:18] could still make cruiser easily. [10:20] >> You're way bigger bigger than him. I'm [10:22] like, that's a giant factor. And then [10:24] it's your experience, your world [10:26] championship level experience. You've [10:27] been in so many big fights. You look so [10:31] calm and so relaxed and so in the [10:34] moment. And I was like, holy [ __ ] he [10:36] might pull it off. And then it got into [10:37] like the third, fourth, and fifth round. [10:39] I'm like, I don't see this changing. I'm [10:41] like, this is crazy. It was so funny. If [10:44] you hear the the the commentators, they [10:45] were like, okay, Rico's moving a lot and [10:48] he's fainting and he's doing this and [10:49] he's doing that, but how long can he [10:51] keep this up? Well, they don't know [10:52] about your cardio. [10:53] >> Exactly. There was one there was one [10:55] commentator uh that that also [10:57] commentator for glory. [10:59] >> Well, Alistar Alistar was there. [11:01] >> Yeah, he was also there. He was also [11:02] there. But the commentator for Glory [11:04] that he knew like that cardio-wise I I [11:08] live in the gym. That's what And you [11:10] know as well like I I I love this. So I [11:14] don't I'm never going to lose on on [11:16] cardio because then I lose for myself. [11:19] So, you know, you're an anomaly in terms [11:21] of like 260 lb men. There's very few [11:24] guys that are as big as you that push a [11:25] pace like you did. So, I wasn't when [11:28] they were saying that, I was like, you [11:29] guys, you know, you guys don't [11:30] understand what you're saying here. He's [11:31] going to be able to do this all night [11:32] long. [11:32] >> Yeah. [11:33] >> And, you know, credit to Usyk for [11:35] finally catching you and and rocking [11:37] you, but [11:38] the fight was stopped too too quickly. [11:41] It just was. It just% [11:43] >> you were still okay. You got in a world [11:45] championship fight that's that close. If [11:47] it just let's [11:48] >> not even really that close. You were [11:50] that far ahead. You got to give someone [11:52] a chance. [11:53] >> Yeah, but let's let's let's reverse it. [11:55] Let's let's rever what if he was in this [11:58] position? [11:59] >> There's no way they would stop that [12:00] fight. No way. Look, it's either [12:03] incompetence or corruption. And I tend [12:05] to think corruption. This is what I [12:07] >> I think these guys want to keep judging [12:10] fights and they want the favor of the [12:12] promoters. And the money is in Usyk. [12:14] Usyk is a huge name. He's a He's their [12:17] big star in the heavyweight division. [12:19] >> They don't They don't want like a guy [12:21] coming in from a different sport and [12:24] >> one professional boxer. [12:25] >> Exactly. Making the biggest making the [12:27] biggest upset in boxing history. That [12:30] would be [12:31] >> Yeah, that would be pretty crazy, right? [12:33] >> It really almost was the biggest upset [12:35] in boxing history. I mean, it was crazy. [12:37] It was really crazy to watch, man. But [12:40] you were the perfect guy to do it [12:41] because of the pace thing, because of [12:43] the fact that you are so big and you can [12:45] push that insane pace and keep it up for [12:48] the 12. [12:48] >> And also game plan wise, [12:50] >> we were so smart on the game plan. We [12:53] did something that he has not seen [12:55] before, that he has not experienced [12:57] before, even though he fought the best [12:59] boxers in the world. But all the boxers, [13:02] what they were trying to do is out, the [13:06] heavyweight boxers were trying to outbox [13:08] a cruiserweight. How in the hell are you [13:11] going to do that? He's lighter, he's [13:14] smaller, and he's faster. So, how are [13:16] you going to [13:17] >> super technical? [13:18] >> Exactly. So, how are you going to outbox [13:20] him? So, you you just got to have a [13:22] super strong game plan. And that's what [13:24] we had. [13:25] >> So, what when you looked at it, when you [13:27] first got the offer, first of all, how [13:28] far out did you get the offer? How far [13:30] out away from the fight? How much time [13:32] did you have to prepare? [13:33] >> Um, well, did did you did you do you [13:36] know the story how I got into this whole [13:39] thing? [13:40] >> No. [13:40] >> Okay. No, it's a crazy story. [13:43] >> Okay, let me tell you. So, it all [13:46] started with the Canelo Crawford fight [13:50] and uh Jason Staithm is a good friend of [13:52] mine and I saw he was in Vegas for that [13:55] fight. So, I texted him like, "Yo, you [13:58] there for that fight?" Oh my god. Yeah, [14:00] this is going to be great. So, we went [14:01] back and forth. [snorts] He's like, [14:02] "Yeah, brother." So, he told me, [14:04] "Brother, you need to be in boxing." [14:07] Because he was at at the tournament when [14:09] I did the eight-man tournament a few [14:10] years ago. And so, he comes to my fights [14:13] and he's like, "Oh, you you got to be [14:15] you got to be in here. You got to kill [14:16] these guys." I said, "Yeah, yeah, I I [14:20] think I could do pretty good." He's [14:21] like, "You know what? I'mma throw it out [14:24] there and let's see what happens." Okay, [14:26] so that was uh let me see. There was [14:29] Vegas time during the day. So Amsterdam [14:31] time, it was night time. So the next [14:34] morning, I'm I'm on the treadmill. I'm [14:36] running. The phone rang, Jason. So, "Yo, [14:40] bro, I'm on the treadmill. Let me call [14:41] you back. Listen, I put your name out [14:44] there. I showed your videos and they're [14:46] going crazy. They want you." So I jumped [14:49] off. I was like, "What do you mean?" [14:51] They said, "They want to do something. [14:52] They're going to call you." I gave them [14:54] your contact. Like, okay. [laughter] [14:57] So that's that's how it started. Um, a [15:00] few days later they called me, "Rico, we [15:02] want you to fight blah blah. We love [15:04] what you do and we want you to fight [15:07] Anthony Joshua." [15:09] So I'm like, "Okay, let's go. I'm ready [15:12] for this opportunity." But I was on the [15:15] set of Roadhouse 2, [laughter] [15:17] so that was like, "Oh [ __ ] now we got [15:19] to combine everything. I have my trainer [15:21] coming in like during Yeah. during takes [15:24] and like okay we do some pad work and [15:26] and then finally uh we were supposed to [15:28] fight in February so I think the deal [15:32] came around October October November so [15:35] I had like around 10 10 good weeks to to [15:38] train and then finally I finished off [15:42] the movie in December and he uh but in [15:46] between Joshua got the offer to fight [15:49] Jake Paul for a crazy amount of money so [15:52] he was Of course I'm gonna do that and [15:55] then after that I'm gonna gonna do the [15:57] Rico fight. [15:58] >> Perfect. [15:59] >> Okay. He does the Jake Paul fight. Well, [16:01] that went like how it went. And then [16:03] they reached out like can we push the [16:05] fight a little bit instead of February [16:07] to March like I'm good. The more time I [16:11] get the better [16:12] >> so to train [16:13] >> to to transition into boxing. So that [16:16] happened and then the end of the year [16:18] like two weeks later that tragic [16:20] accident happens. So that was [16:23] >> Yeah, we're talking about Anthony [16:25] Joshua. He was in Africa. Terrible car [16:27] accident. Killed two of his friends. [16:28] >> Yeah. Terrible. So that derailed that [16:32] whole situation, but I had a whole [16:34] training plan scheduled. I was going to [16:36] Spain to train there for a month, but I [16:39] didn't know what was going to happen. So [16:40] I just did what I had to do and I just [16:42] continued training. So I was in Spain [16:45] training, training, training. And then [16:47] at the end of the that training camp, [16:48] they uh we were talking about it and [16:51] they said like, "Yeah, we don't think [16:53] also with with with his manager Eddie [16:55] Hearn like I don't know if he's going to [16:58] be back soon. So what do you want to do? [17:00] You want to wait or you want to fight?" [17:02] Like I'm already training so I would [17:03] like to fight somebody, but we don't [17:06] know what makes sense. No, let's think [17:08] about it. So we thought about we thought [17:10] about it. They thought about it. This [17:12] episode is brought to you by [17:14] Squarespace. Once you've got a great [17:16] name for your business, you need a great [17:18] domain. And Squarespace makes it easy to [17:22] lock in a domain. You just search the [17:24] name you want, buy it, and then you're [17:26] ready to build. No hidden fees, no weird [17:29] upsells. Go to squarespace.com/rogan [17:33] for a free trial, and when you are ready [17:35] to launch, use the code Rogan to get 10% [17:37] off your first purchase of a website or [17:40] domain. [17:41] >> And then we were talking about, hey, [17:42] what about what about Usyk? Does that [17:44] make sense? Was it your idea? [17:45] >> Yeah, it was our idea. I'm like, "Yeah, [17:48] that makes sense. Why not?" Because he's [17:50] the he's the top dog. He's like [17:52] undisputed kickboxing champion versus [17:54] the undisputed boxing champion. Like, [17:56] there's a story there. [17:57] >> Yeah. [17:58] >> It's like, let's just throw it out [17:59] there. Let's see what they say. [18:01] >> Okay. Pick up the phone, call them. Yo, [18:05] yo, guys. Yeah, we have an idea. So, I [18:08] pitched him the whole idea. Undisputed [18:10] versus undisputed. [18:11] Silence. Oh my god. What? What did I [18:14] just do? [laughter] [18:17] Then the first thing I hear back, [18:21] we love it. Whoa. [18:24] I said, okay, what does that mean? [18:26] [laughter] [18:27] We What does that mean? So, uh, so they [18:31] said, "You know what? We're going to [18:32] talk to Usyk's team and we're going to [18:35] come back to you." So, like, and then in [18:36] two weeks they went to Usyk. Usyk loved [18:39] the idea as well. So uh again big shout [18:42] out to him for taking that fight as well [18:45] because he had hundreds of options and [18:47] he took this fight uh outside the box. [18:50] So I love it also to uh to his [18:52] excellency Turkish for setting this [18:55] whole thing up. [18:56] >> Oh he has set up so many great fights. [18:58] He's so important to box super super [19:00] much respect for both of them and [19:02] thankful also to Jason of course for [19:04] setting this whole thing up. Yeah and [19:06] getting me into Yeah. getting me into [19:08] the conversation. Um, and then like so [19:11] that was after two weeks and then at two [19:13] weeks later we we were on a FaceTime [19:15] call for like a minute and yeah after [19:19] that they got it done like and then and [19:21] then then afterwards they said like oh [19:23] it's going to be a title fight and then [19:25] the whole world went crazy of course [19:26] like oh my god how is this guy going to [19:28] go for a world title fight? It doesn't [19:30] make any sense. I was just like let's [19:32] go. We're going to shock the world. Well [19:35] you know it's not like you had a [19:37] lifetime of striking. It's only the [19:38] difference is removing the kicks. That's [19:40] all. [19:40] >> Yeah. But the thing is like the boxing [19:42] fans, the straight up boxing fans, [19:45] they're not too much into MMA and [19:47] they're definitely not into kickboxing. [19:50] So, they had no clue, [19:51] >> right? [19:52] >> They had no clue of like, [19:53] >> right, right, [19:55] >> who who is this guy? What did he do? And [19:57] that's why also the WBC, they also had [19:59] their Muay Thai department. So, for [20:01] them, it made sense. It's like, "Hey, [20:03] Rico, with his credentials and what he [20:05] did into into in kickboxing, it makes [20:07] sense to make it a world championship [20:09] fight, but we just have to tell the [20:12] people." [20:13] >> Well, you know, it drives me nuts as a [20:16] fan of combat sports, as also a giant [20:18] fan of kickboxing, that kickboxing [20:21] >> does not get the love that it deserves [20:23] in America. It doesn't make any sense [20:26] because in MMA, the casual fans love [20:29] standup. And when fights go to the [20:31] ground, they [20:32] >> boo. [20:33] >> So like it it makes no sense to me how [20:37] you have boxing huge. [20:39] >> Yeah. [20:39] >> MMA huge. Kickboxing almost non-existent [20:42] in America. There's no big kickboxing [20:44] leagues. [20:45] >> No, but maybe because they they want to [20:48] see [20:49] >> Yeah. their own people win. Maybe. No. [20:51] >> No. It just hasn't been promoted, right? [20:53] It doesn't make any sense. It makes no [20:54] sense because their own people don't win [20:56] in MMA. I mean, there's very few [20:58] American champions. There's uh Justin [21:00] Gatechi and Sean Strickland in the [21:02] >> Yeah, but at least they're really [21:03] competitive and in kickboxing they're [21:06] >> right. That's true. But we don't care [21:08] honestly in the in MMA. No, I mean Alex [21:11] Pereira was the biggest star in the [21:13] sport is [21:15] >> Yeah, exactly. But Brazilian doesn't [21:18] speak English at all. Only speaks [21:19] Portuguese and whatever other language [21:21] is tribal language. And so you then you [21:23] have Islamace who's fighting next [21:25] weekend. huge star. Yeah. You know, from [21:27] Dagistan that no one in America, all [21:29] they care, are you the baddest [21:31] [ __ ] on earth? That's all they [21:33] care. And I really genuinely believe [21:36] that if someone came along, like I [21:37] really wish Zufa would do it. [21:39] >> Yeah. [21:39] >> Because they're doing it with boxing, [21:40] they should do it with kickboxing [21:42] because [21:42] >> kickboxing or Muay Thai, whichever they [21:44] decide, you know, I think is the most [21:47] exciting standup sport in the world. I [21:49] don't think it's even close. [21:50] >> 100%. [21:51] >> I love Glory. I [ __ ] watch it all the [21:53] time. I watch all the events. Yeah, [21:54] >> it's so exciting, man. It's so fun. [21:57] >> And the the fights are so chaotic and if [21:59] you're a fan of brutal [22:02] >> brutal and technical at the same time. I [22:04] mean, [22:05] >> some of the most amazing fights. I mean, [22:06] that's how I knew about Pereira was [22:08] because I was such a huge fan of Glory. [22:10] >> Yeah. [22:10] >> When I when he came over to the UFC, I [22:12] was like, [22:12] >> "Everyone's fucked." I'm like, "You [22:14] don't understand. [laughter] Everyone's [22:15] [ __ ] This guy's different, man." [22:17] >> Yeah, he is. [22:17] >> He's different. [22:19] >> But it was because I knew him so much [22:20] from kickboxing and he was so exciting [22:22] in kickboxing. Like kickboxing should be [22:25] huge in America. It should be. It really [22:27] should be. [22:27] >> Yeah. 100%. 100%. And it's it's a part [22:30] of MMA. So I think a lot of guys [22:32] >> a giant part of MMA. The most exciting [22:35] part of MMA is the kickboxing for sure. [22:38] >> Yeah. 100%. 100%. So [22:39] >> makes no sense. It's a it's a it is a [22:42] untapped market. If somebody figured it [22:44] out and dove in and made it, it would be [22:47] gigantic. It would have to be like the [22:49] UFC though because they you have to have [22:51] the kind of publicity machine, the kind [22:53] of media machine that the UFC has [22:56] >> to build up the stories and show these [22:58] guys and show like all the champions. [23:00] >> 100%. And but I think that's [23:03] >> in every big fight and every big [23:05] organization is where the strength is is [23:07] the storytelling. [23:08] >> Yes. [23:09] That is where I think where and also if [23:13] you ask me like when I was in glory [23:15] where it lacked on on experience like [23:18] the storytelling that where does this [23:20] guy come from? What is his background [23:22] and like you want to get to know the [23:24] person instead of just like the guy that [23:26] throws punches and kicks. [23:28] >> Exactly. The UFC does an awesome job [23:29] with that. They have a whole series [23:31] called embedded. So, like next week when [23:33] the uh Ian Garry Islam Makfev fight [23:36] takes place, they're going to have one [23:38] on Monday. So, you get up Monday [23:40] morning, it'll be there on on YouTube [23:42] and everybody will watch it and they're [23:44] like, "Oh shit." You watch that one, [23:45] then you watch the one on Tuesday, you [23:47] see them training, you see him eating, [23:48] you see him in the sauna cutting weight, [23:50] you see him doing all their press stuff, [23:52] you see him and you get hyped, man. You [23:54] get hyped. [23:55] >> Exactly. But you get drawn into like, [23:56] "Oh, this is the guy behind the [23:59] fighter." And I think that's so much [24:01] more interesting. [24:02] >> And then they have the countdown show, [24:03] which is an hour. The countdown show is [24:05] like highly produced and all this [24:07] different stuff, interviews and [24:09] conversations with their family. It's [24:11] [ __ ] amazing. And it just gets you so [24:13] jazzed up for the fight. If the UFC did [24:15] something like that with kickboxing, I [24:16] think it would be gigantic. You know, [24:18] they tried Glory in America for a while [24:20] and it was doing pretty good on Spike [24:21] TV. Remember? [24:22] >> Like they had the last man standing [24:24] tournament in Los Angeles. I went to [24:26] that. It was awesome. It's just it just [24:28] never [ __ ] caught on. [24:30] >> No, you know, [24:31] >> it was it was hard. It was Yeah, it's [24:32] too bad. So, and then after the last few [24:34] years, we were just in Europe more in [24:37] the Netherlands. That's where we Yeah. [24:39] Englor [24:39] >> One is doing a good job with kickboxing. [24:42] One FC in [24:43] >> I don't know. [24:44] >> You don't know them? [24:44] >> No. Yeah, I know about them, but I don't [24:46] know. No, I don't know. I don't know if [24:49] they're doing in the lighterweight [24:51] divisions cuz they're getting a lot of [24:52] guys from Thailand and a lot of guys [24:54] from Japan. Yeah, but they're more Asian [24:56] based, right? They're not [24:57] >> Yes. Yes. More Asian based. But they [25:00] have a lot of standup fights now. A lot [25:02] of like either they have Muay Thai with [25:04] MMA gloves on. [25:06] >> Yeah. In a cage. Brutal. And then [25:08] they're also having uh kickboxing in a [25:11] cage. And And kickboxing in a ring. They [25:13] mix it up between rings and cage. [25:15] >> Yeah. I mean, I personally think the [25:17] ring is better. I really do because I [25:20] think that there's a a lot of weird [25:22] stuff with the cage, you know, like the [25:24] cage uh especially with MMA, I don't [25:27] like it because you could you could use [25:29] it to get back up. Yeah. [25:30] >> You could like get your back against it [25:32] and pull yourself back up. You could [25:33] also use it to take people down. It's [25:36] harder to take people down with the [25:37] ring, I believe. [25:38] >> 100% 100%. [25:40] >> Yeah. So, but that's why it's it's good [25:41] for me now. Like I Yeah, I know agent. [25:46] There was [laughter] a talk about you [25:47] fighting Derrick Lewis. [25:48] >> Yeah, [25:49] >> I remember that. And then you got this [25:51] the offer to box and it was so much [25:52] money. [25:53] >> Yeah, the the Joshua fight. [25:54] >> Oh, that's right. The [25:55] >> fight that's where it started. So, [25:58] >> yeah. So, we were in talks uh because I [26:01] was a free agent. I vacated the belt. [26:03] >> How many MMA fights you have? You at [26:04] least one. [26:05] >> One. Just one. Yeah, just [laughter] [26:06] one. I did some grappling years ago, but [26:09] I just have one one professional MMA [26:11] fight. So, so after that vacating my my [26:14] belt, I was a free agent. So, we were [26:16] like, "Okay, let's yeah, dip our toes in [26:19] different water. Let's see." Yeah. Let's [26:22] see what's what's on the landscape. Now, [26:24] >> why did you decide to vacate the belt? [26:25] Cuz you had done everything you needed [26:26] to do. I did it all. [26:27] >> You cleaned out the division. [26:28] >> I did it all. So, I was like I wanted I [26:31] wanted it to to make sense. And first we [26:35] we we talked within the organization of [26:38] like, hey, I'm looking to do big stuff, [26:41] different stuff. So like crossover [26:43] events because that was getting more and [26:45] more [26:47] talked about like the big crossover [26:49] events and I think yeah in my opinion I [26:52] am one of the baddest men on the planet [26:53] so it it made sense to do it but then [26:56] yeah within the organization management [27:00] wrong management like we just yeah [27:03] didn't get it we just didn't get to a [27:05] place where it worked out. So I was like [27:06] okay let me just leave it then. So I [27:09] left it and then we talked with UFC to [27:13] see yeah what was going on there but [27:15] then yeah I got the other offer and it [27:18] made more sense. [27:19] >> Now was the other offer a one contract [27:22] fight? A one fight contract? So you're [27:23] free again? [27:24] >> I'm a free agent again. [27:25] >> Oh wow. [27:26] >> So and that's why [27:27] >> did was there any conversation at all [27:29] about a rematch? [27:31] >> Yeah. Right away, his excellency came [27:34] into the ring and he said, "You're going [27:37] to fight this guy again." That's the [27:39] first thing he said. But Kabaya also [27:42] came into the ring. Uh Ajit Kabya, the [27:45] the WBC interim champion and now the the [27:48] champion because Usyk vacated the belt [27:51] as well. So, um he also wanted his shot. [27:55] So there was like a lot of talk and like [27:57] at that moment I was there but it was [28:00] just like I don't know it was [28:02] >> chaos. [28:02] >> Yeah. Chaos. And for me I was just like [28:04] wow did this [28:05] >> they just [ __ ] you? [28:06] >> Yeah. [laughter] Did this really just [28:07] happen? And it took it took me like at [28:11] least six weeks before I watched the [28:13] fight back for the very first time after [28:15] the fight. [28:16] >> Wow. [28:17] >> Because it it's it still hurts. [28:20] [laughter] So um so yeah. Yeah. So now [28:23] I'm I'm like a free agent and I we get [28:26] we get so many we get so many offers. [28:28] No. [28:28] >> What is it like watching it and watching [28:30] the fight get stopped after the bell? [28:32] >> It still hurts. It still hurts. I'm [28:34] like, "Wow, what what did you what did [28:39] you want want me to do? You want me to [28:41] move around? Did you want me to to punch [28:43] back or whatever?" For me, like, you [28:45] know, I've been in in trouble multiple [28:47] times within my world title kickboxing [28:50] fights. I I was behind multiple times [28:53] and I still came on came out on top. So [28:58] there was for me there's no conversation [29:00] in like okay could he continue? Is he [29:04] going to continue? I never stop. [29:06] >> They don't know you. That's the other [29:07] thing is the conditioning thing. Like [29:09] your conditioning is so good. You bounce [29:12] back so quick and there's been so many [29:13] times where guys try to empty the tank [29:15] to put you out [29:16] >> and you're not going nowhere. [29:17] >> No. And it's it was just a few seconds [29:19] and a referee should know that. So next [29:23] to that like with all the experience you [29:26] know that I have within the combat [29:28] sports like it's just a few seconds. Let [29:30] it go and let me at least give me the [29:33] opportunity and give the fans the [29:35] opportunity to see that 12th round. [29:37] >> Right. [29:37] >> So oh it would have been so exciting. [29:39] >> Yeah. Oh my god. But also looking now [29:43] looking back at it because there was [29:44] also open scoring and I love open [29:47] scoring because within that gives you [29:51] the right position and gives the [29:53] fighters the position like okay where [29:56] are where where we standing within this [29:58] fight but now looking back at the fight [30:01] after eight rounds because after every [30:03] four rounds we hear what the scoring is [30:05] after eight rounds my trainer Peter Fury [30:08] says okay we gotta really start winning [30:12] these rounds now. [30:14] I was like, what? I'm I was like, am I [30:17] hearing this right? I feel like I'm [30:19] already winning these rounds. He said, [30:21] no, we're equal. We're we're equal on [30:23] the scorecards after eight rounds. So, I [30:26] was like, okay. So, in the ninth round, [30:28] I [30:29] >> even the commentators are like, what? [30:30] >> Yeah, exactly. But then I really started [30:33] pushing even more, but I was pushing [30:35] already. But if you know you're like [30:38] eight or seven rounds ahead and you feel [30:41] like you're getting tired the last two [30:43] or three rounds, just move around. [30:45] >> Yeah. [30:46] >> Tip tap and maybe you lose and maybe [30:48] it's a draw, whatever. And then still [30:50] you win. Uh because you were like five [30:52] rounds ahead, then it doesn't make any [30:54] sense. But now we had to keep pushing [30:57] >> and then oh it's like walking straight [31:00] into that uppercut like oh still it [31:03] still gets me. Oh, when I look back at [31:05] it, it's like, oh, and then that last [31:08] part, that's what I find so hard. And I [31:11] I feel like I need to work on that as a [31:15] as a human being, for myself, as a [31:17] person. I can only look at that at that [31:20] one mistake I felt I made at the end [31:24] because I gave them the opportunity to [31:27] pull this card. That's what that's [31:29] that's how it feels for me. mistake [31:32] being that you push too hard or [31:34] >> Yeah, the mistake like there was one [31:36] mistake that I made running into that [31:38] uppercut like walking straight in [31:41] swinging and we said in the in the in [31:44] the whole prep I tried that a few times [31:45] like oh that's dangerous don't do that [31:47] with us and still for whatever reason I [31:51] did that at that exact moment and that [31:54] that's what what frustrates me if I look [31:56] back at it [31:58] um because I'm I'm only I'm not looking [32:01] at what he did did well because that [32:03] uppercut was amazing. Um I'm just [32:06] looking at what I what I'm responsible [32:08] for and I'm responsible for myself and I [32:11] gave them now this opportunity by making [32:13] that mistake and that's like oh so hard [32:15] to get over that for myself. But I need [32:18] to work on that because I had the same [32:19] with the Jamal Ben Sadik fight with the [32:21] eye. I I everybody's like oh Rico you [32:25] showed them you're never giving up. But [32:27] I know I got that. I know I got that [32:29] from the inside, but I never have to [32:31] show that because the skill set is so so [32:34] big that I don't get in I don't get in [32:37] trouble. So I don't have to show that I [32:40] can continue and I'm never giving up. [32:42] But [32:43] >> I can only look at that, oh that one [32:45] mistake. Why did I do that? Then I get [32:47] the eye like [32:49] >> you're so stupid. So I can only look at [32:50] that. Yeah. It's [32:52] >> and that guy [ __ ] punches hard. [32:54] >> Yeah. [32:54] >> And he's a big fella. [32:56] >> Yeah. He's bigger than I am. Jamal Ben [32:57] Sadik is huge. Powerful powerful power. [33:00] >> It's that's uh that that's hard for but [33:03] I got to work on that for myself. Like [33:05] >> Yeah, but that's also why you're great. [33:07] [laughter] [33:08] >> Yeah. [33:08] >> I mean, you have to you have to hate [33:11] mistakes. Hate them like like they're [33:13] poison. [33:14] >> Yeah, they are. [33:15] >> Yeah. [33:15] >> Yeah, they are. But you had Yeah. You [33:18] should have seen me after the fight. [33:19] Like I was I was like a big baby. I was [33:22] crying in my my hotel room like a big [33:24] big baby. I was like, "Oh my god." I was [33:26] so close at like shocking the world and [33:29] >> yeah, [33:30] >> now this happened. It was like, "Oh, it [33:32] hurts so bad." [laughter] [33:33] >> I can only to a certain extent, but [33:36] >> at least you could laugh at it a little [33:37] bit now. I can only imagine. To me, [33:40] watching it as a fan of yours, I was [33:42] like, "Oh my god, he's going to [ __ ] [33:43] pull it off." [33:45] >> I was on the edge of my seat. And when [33:46] we're going into the ninth and tth [33:48] rounds, I was like, "I don't see how [33:49] Usyk can win." No. And then when they [33:51] started talking about the scorecards, I [33:53] was like, "What the [ __ ] are they [33:54] watching? This is crazy. [33:56] >> They're looking at a different fight. [33:57] But that's so But for me, [33:59] >> either corrupt or incompetent. [34:00] >> Yeah. If if I look at it now and and for [34:04] us talking about it and for you being so [34:07] long into combat sports and being a [34:09] commentator and doing it yourself, [34:12] wouldn't it be something? Wouldn't you [34:15] be maybe a spokesman or a part could you [34:17] be a part of a way how we can make this [34:20] whole judging thing and this whole [34:22] transparency [34:24] better? Well, I think one way to do it [34:27] is to have uh more judges like Glory [34:30] does. I think five is probably the right [34:32] number. And I think another thing to do [34:34] is maybe have a bunch of people online [34:38] that are recognized experts like top [34:41] trainers, top commentators, people [34:44] people that really understand the sport [34:47] >> and maybe they get an app, maybe there's [34:50] like a special app that those guys can [34:52] judge on. So you have a collective [34:54] expert opinion [34:56] >> and you get to look at that as well. [34:57] >> Yeah. But that's what we had now. Like [34:59] if you look the the professionals, the [35:02] trainers, [35:03] >> the the commentators, they all saw the [35:05] fight a certain way, but the judges saw [35:08] >> something totally they were looking at a [35:09] different fight for some kind of reason. [35:11] >> And that's that's crazy. [35:13] >> A problem like we talked about. It's [35:14] either incompetence or it's corruption. [35:16] And I think it might be a little bit of [35:18] both. Yeah. [35:18] >> And I think maybe the corruption isn't [35:20] even conscious, but it's like they know [35:23] who the promoter wants to win. They want [35:25] Usyk to win because Usyk is where you [35:27] can get the next Tyson Fury fight or the [35:29] Anthony Joshua. Well, not Anthony [35:30] Joshua, but whoever he would decide to [35:32] fight. [35:33] >> Yeah. [35:33] >> You know, again, [35:35] >> and now it's going to be Deontay Wilder, [35:36] which nobody's calling for. [35:38] >> I don't know if it's going to happen. [35:39] Yeah. [35:39] >> Where is signed? Can you please find out [35:42] if the Anthony Joshua or excuse me, the [35:45] uh Deontay Wilder um Alexander Usyk [35:48] fight is signed? because people were [35:51] talking about that being I think they [35:53] were saying like December or something [35:56] >> they were trying for it at least I know [35:58] that's what I that's what they were [35:59] trying for but for me like that's why [36:01] for now it's [36:02] >> not officially signed yet okay [36:05] >> I'll plead to his excellency [laughter] [36:07] Turkey al-Hik this is the fight but [36:10] here's the question does Usyk want that [36:12] fight that's the question you have [36:15] [laughter] [36:16] >> I don't think so [36:17] >> a really tough fight like that fight and [36:20] And you know they ask you to do it [36:22] again. This is your last time out. He's [36:24] call I mean this is he's calling this is [36:26] his last fight. Yeah. [36:27] >> If this is his last fight and he almost [36:29] lost to you and he has the potential of [36:31] losing again. [36:33] >> They'd have to entice him with they'd [36:35] have to [ __ ] pull out that paper. [36:38] Pull out that paper. Big bag. [36:42] Okay. If I lose it is what it is. [36:45] >> No. But that's why it's so good for me [36:47] now to be in this position. I'm a free [36:49] agent. We got offers from the biggest [36:52] organizations across the world like [36:54] after this fight and [36:57] I'm just like taking taking my time [36:59] looking [37:00] >> they given you that's exciting. Can you [37:01] talk about them? [37:02] >> Uh not really. [37:03] >> No. Tell me afterwards. [37:05] >> Yeah. No. So they [37:06] >> I know a lot of people talked about you [37:08] possibly boxing Francis and Ganu or [37:10] having an MMA fight with Francis Inanu. [37:13] >> So [37:13] >> was that on the table? [37:14] >> Yeah. No. Well, to be honest, like two [37:16] weeks before the Usyk fight, uh there [37:19] was the the MVP card, right? [37:22] [clears throat] [37:23] >> But then they approached me like weeks [37:25] before uh MVP to [37:30] >> MMA versus Francis and then I was also [37:33] like right on the edge of like closing [37:35] the deal with Usyk. And so I had the two [37:38] options on the table. And yeah, to be [37:40] honest, like the the other the the the [37:42] the MMA deal, like they kept on like [37:47] stacking up, stacking up like we got [37:49] like, okay, what what if we give you the [37:54] okay, but what if we give you the okay, [37:56] let me look at this option again. [37:58] [laughter] [37:59] So, but then yeah, I just looked myself [38:02] in the mirror like I respect his [38:05] excellency and Jason gave his word and [38:08] his excellency gave his word that they [38:09] were going to do it. And if I look at [38:11] myself, I'm looking at legacy and that [38:14] Francis Naganu fight is still going to [38:16] be there after the Usyk fight. But how [38:18] crazy is that as a kickboxer coming in [38:21] fighting for a world championship within [38:24] boxing and [38:26] potentially winning because that's how I [38:29] I only have one one plan and that's [38:31] winning. So that's how I went into that [38:33] fight and you know we saw how that went [38:35] and it was [38:36] >> Didn't you wish you could kick him? [38:38] >> No, not really. [38:39] >> Not at all. [38:40] >> No. [38:40] >> Didn't you wish you could just a few low [38:42] kicks? [38:42] >> No, [laughter] because that definitely [38:44] not going to make make it to the end. [38:46] No, but that was so funny because [38:48] everybody's like, "Rico, you've been [38:49] kickboxing for so long." Like what [38:51] happens if you head kick him? Like just [38:53] like don't you have that feeling like [38:55] like guys like I've been boxing next to [38:59] doing kickboxing like for 15 years or [39:02] something. I've been working with Peter [39:03] Fury for so long and I'm used to this. [39:06] But I know for I think that's what made [39:09] me such a good kickboxer as well that I [39:11] was into boxing. But there's a giant [39:14] difference between working with a [39:15] kickboxer and even being a kickboxer and [39:18] fighting arguably the greatest [39:19] heavyweight of all time. [39:20] >> 100%. 100%. But the crazy thing was I [39:24] think [39:26] I think it was around five or six. I was [39:29] like he was jabbing me. I was just [39:32] ticking it away and I was like bum bum [39:34] bum. I'm like talking to myself in the [39:37] fight. I'm like am I out jabbing the [39:39] champ? [laughter] [39:40] This is crazy. And then my train I hear [39:43] training my trainer Dennis Rico just [39:46] keep doing what you're doing. You're [39:47] winning this fight. Let's go. Let's go. [39:49] Let's go. Because because he also didn't [39:51] want me to take too many risks. He's [39:53] like, "Okay, you won this round and then [39:55] continue from there because that's how [39:56] they were experiencing it the the fight [40:00] and the the rounds on the side. [40:01] >> Well, let me ask you this. When you [40:03] first started formulating a game plan, [40:06] did you watch a bunch I'm sure you're [40:08] already a fan of Usyk. watch, but did [40:10] you rewatch them and try to find [40:12] patterns? How did you formulate this [40:14] game plan? [40:14] >> Oh, of course. Uh, with the Yeah. My [40:17] trainer Peter Fury, uh, with the He's [40:20] Yeah, he's crazy. He's the very very [40:23] very bad best at what he does. [40:27] And we were just like analyzing these [40:29] fights like so first he already had the [40:33] thing in his in his mind and he asked me [40:34] like what do you see all these boxers do [40:39] and what they shouldn't be doing and [40:42] what do you think they should do? So I [40:44] look at it, I look at it, I look at it [40:47] and I think it basically started with if [40:51] somebody is a southpole, [40:54] why would you stay right in front of [40:57] them? That's one thing. And because you [41:01] cannot go if somebody's orthodox, you [41:03] move to the right, but you cannot move [41:06] to the right with a southpole because [41:08] you're walking straight into a left [41:09] hand. So why is nobody moving to the [41:13] left? [41:14] Because then as soon as you move to the [41:16] left, you're walking away from [41:18] >> right that that strong arm, [41:21] >> I think. And that's what we said. Exact. [41:23] Exactly. [41:24] >> Which is crazy. It's just so many people [41:26] are so stuck in their patterns, [41:28] >> the way they like to move. They like to [41:30] move to their right. Yeah. [41:31] >> That's what they like. They feel good. [41:33] They want to move to their right and [41:34] throw a right hand, but you're just [41:35] running into that power hand. It's just [41:37] crazy that [41:38] >> it's not just that, too. It's also the [41:40] size difference. Like that was one [41:42] thing. It's like you were so big in that [41:45] that ring that you were smothering him [41:47] and you were on top of him and you were [41:48] throwing those shots in tight. [41:50] >> Yeah. But the combination of those two [41:53] getting him out of that position [41:57] took away so many so many of his tools [42:00] and then like you said smothering and [42:02] getting into him and using my size [42:04] because if you ask me like all the guys [42:07] he fought are way they're they're my [42:09] size. They're way bigger than him. [42:11] Right. [42:11] >> But because the way they fought, they [42:15] couldn't use their size on him. But the [42:17] way I did it, I could. Tyson Fury did a [42:21] lot. He He used his size a lot, you [42:23] know, and he's a a different kind of [42:25] big, though. He's big and long where [42:27] you're [ __ ] thick, you know? It's a a [42:30] different thing. You're very lean and [42:32] and huge. [42:33] >> It's a different It's like the the mass [42:35] of you when you were on top of him [42:37] pushing him, you could see that it was a [42:39] factor. like he was recognizing it, [42:40] >> but it's so hard. Like if you look at [42:43] that fight that you just mentioned is [42:46] how are you going to get he he tried to [42:48] use his size, but how are you going to [42:49] get close to him walking straight into [42:51] it because he's then he's just going to [42:53] keep moving and keep mov because he's so [42:55] fast on his feet. [42:56] >> But that's what we try to do. We try to [42:59] be faster on our feet and move to the [43:02] side and then get into it and then get [43:04] close because then as soon as you [43:07] >> uh he's a software, you keep moving this [43:09] way and just keep getting closer [43:11] somewhere you're going to you're going [43:13] to be there. [43:14] >> You're going to reach him, but it takes [43:16] it takes some time. And I didn't think [43:18] if you look at the heavyweights, what [43:20] they all want to do is they want to bum. [43:22] They want to hit maybe boom boom one two [43:25] versus the very of arguably one of the [43:27] best to have ever done it. And then [43:29] especially in a cruiser rate, how are [43:31] you going to hit him in [43:34] step A, [43:35] >> right? [43:36] >> It's going to be at least step B, C, or [43:39] D. When you're going to hit him, you got [43:40] to have multiple plans. Like for me, I [43:43] was just throwing throw, throw, throw, [43:45] throw. And I know I was the the first [43:48] time I was going to hit him was maybe in [43:50] punch six or whatever because then [43:53] the distance is going to be closer. So I [43:56] didn't even think about trying to knock [43:58] his head off. That's what I said. I said [44:00] I'm that's what I'm going to do. I'm [44:01] going to try and knock his head off. Of [44:04] course I'm going to tell him that cuz [44:05] that this is definitely not what we're [44:07] going to do. I was just going to get [44:09] close, right? and keep keep working. [44:12] Keep working volume. [44:14] >> And then finally when you're there, [44:16] >> that's the moment you're gonna put in [44:18] some power. But that's like [44:20] >> maybe punch seven or eight, but the [44:23] first three, four, you're not even going [44:24] to hit. It's going to you just you're [44:26] just hitting air because he's too fast, [44:28] >> right? Yeah. He's like a giant [44:30] lomachenko. [44:31] >> Exactly. But that's how we thought about [44:33] it. Don't try and hit him in the first [44:36] two or three punches. throw them so he [44:38] has something to look at and something [44:40] to think about and then we're going to [44:43] get there. And as soon as you get there, [44:45] you smother him, boom, punch him in the [44:47] body. What heavyweight boxers have you [44:49] worked with over the years, [44:51] >> all the the the the top fighters, of [44:54] course, that's how I got with Peter [44:55] Fury. I started with Tyson Fury. Um I I [44:59] trained with uh with AJ Kabaya because [45:02] he was also in that uh um [45:06] uh in that camp back then. [45:09] U Fury uh Peter Sun, he's I think he's [45:13] he's also he's been going up and down [45:16] because of his health, but he's [45:18] definitely one of the best and he [45:21] we're going to see more of him because [45:23] yeah, he's such a good competitor, such [45:26] a good boxer as well. [45:28] uh great skill set. So there's been a [45:30] bunch of fighters that I that that we [45:32] worked with. [45:33] >> That's so massive because, you know, [45:35] sharing all that gym time with elite [45:37] guys like Tyson Fury, [45:39] >> you know, and Kobe F. Having that kind [45:41] of experience in the gym must have also [45:44] been a huge confidence boost. [45:46] >> 100%. Especially now in the this this [45:48] whole last thing is trying to get like [45:51] good South Pole fighters. Oh my god, [45:54] that's the hardest thing. The hardest [45:56] thing. And then we had one big guy and [45:58] we had one uh one smaller guy. It was uh [46:04] it was so hard. And then mixing that up. [46:06] So we started off with first the first [46:09] six with the with the big guy uh Moses [46:12] Jelly and [46:15] an amazing boxer, but he's big. He's [46:17] big. He's heavy. He's not an Usyk. He's [46:18] like twice as big as Usyk, but he's a [46:21] South. So he has that power and we could [46:24] really compete. And then after that uh [46:26] we we we jumped in with with James [46:28] Branch and he's like 90 90 kilo South [46:33] Pole. So he's like [laughter] he's like [46:36] throwing rapid fire punch like [ __ ] So [46:39] and and that change within sparring. So [46:42] doing first six with one and then six [46:44] with the other. Oh my god. That was it [46:47] was next level. It was like six months [46:50] of pure hard work. [46:53] >> Wow. [46:54] But it was so cool. It was so cool. And [46:56] it Yeah. It just opened up my mind to a [46:59] whole different to a whole different [47:02] world. And it's for being in in combat [47:05] sports since I was six. [47:08] And after all these years saying like, [47:10] okay, this kickboxing [47:13] chapter within the book is I think [47:16] that's that's done. Let's start a new [47:19] chapter. [47:19] >> Well, there's no big kickboxing fight [47:21] that can compare with what you just did. [47:23] No, exactly. [47:24] >> I mean, how old are you now? 38. [47:25] >> 37. [47:26] >> 37. Yeah. So, at that age, like you've [47:28] gota you got to like look at what you've [47:31] already accomplished. [47:33] >> In kickboxing, there's no fight that [47:35] everyone's calling out for like, oh, you [47:37] have, you know, it's not like Bhari's at [47:40] the in the prime. It's not like one big [47:42] fight. [47:43] >> No. No. So there was like, hey, and [47:45] especially with the whole uh crossover [47:47] fight [47:49] being at the biggest attention right [47:51] now, it's like, hey, I think that's this [47:53] is something we got to look at. [47:54] >> So after the fight is done, [47:56] >> yeah, [47:57] >> Turkey Alashi comes into the ring, says [47:59] you guys are going to fight again and [48:02] it's been a couple months now. So what [48:04] has happened? What what do you talk to [48:07] anybody? Has your management talked to [48:08] anybody? They they talked to because [48:10] it's been crazy like all the the biggest [48:13] organizations reached out, hey, we were [48:15] looking at this fight, we're looking at [48:17] that fight, and [48:18] >> but what about [48:19] >> what what what makes what's makes sense [48:22] for us? And that's where I'm looking at [48:24] now because like I said, I'm in I [48:26] believe I'm in the winter of of my [48:29] career. So, I'm I'm just looking at big [48:33] fights. [48:33] >> Do you have a timeline when you want to [48:35] get out? No, not it's not [48:39] set in stone, but let's let's let's see. [48:43] Let's see. But like I said, I feel like [48:46] I'm I'm so excited. I'm so I'm so happy [48:48] and I'm so grateful to be in this [48:51] position right now. So, let's Yeah. make [48:54] history. [48:55] >> Yeah. I mean, it's all about legacy, [48:56] right? [48:57] >> They [ __ ] you over, but you did win. [48:59] You got a big win out of it in that you [49:01] performed way better than anybody [49:02] expected. And and then there's also this [49:05] element where people are rooting for you [49:06] because they do think think you got [49:08] [ __ ] over%. [49:09] >> They think you were getting [ __ ] over [49:10] in the scoring and they got you got [49:11] [ __ ] over with the stoppage. [49:13] >> And so it's very marketable. And so what [49:17] my question though what I'm asking is [49:19] has anybody talked about the rematch [49:20] other than that one time [49:22] >> I knew [laughter] [49:24] I knew this was going to come. [49:25] >> I mean that's what I what I want to know [49:28] is the fight. Oh, he's talking about the [49:30] rematch. [49:30] >> That is the fight. That is that's one of [49:32] the biggest fights in heavyweight boxing [49:34] right now. [49:34] >> I know 100%. [49:36] >> If not though, it's got to be other than [49:38] Tyson Fury versus Anthony Joshua is [49:40] going to be big for England. Yeah. [49:42] Right. For them, that's an alltime [49:44] fight. Two of the all-time greats in [49:46] England. Two of the greatest British [49:48] heavyweight champions ever. [49:49] >> A little bit late, but [49:50] >> it's a little late, especially after [49:52] Anthony Joshua's last fight. That was a [49:54] scary one. I was like, whoa. [49:55] >> Yeah. But both of them [49:57] >> Yes. Both of the fights they they they [49:59] did. [50:00] >> Yeah. [50:01] >> It's not they're not the same guys. [50:02] >> No, but but it's still super excited. [50:06] Exactly. They're legends and it's a huge [50:08] fight to that finally got made. [50:11] >> Other than that, the fight is a rematch. [50:14] You and Usyk is the fight. That is the [50:16] fight in the heavyweight division right [50:17] now. There's no one else out there [50:19] that's like, you know, there's Moses [50:21] Itama who people don't really know about [50:24] enough yet. [50:24] >> Not yet. is the future. [50:26] >> 100%. [50:28] >> Oh, that guy's good. [50:29] >> Dynamite. [50:30] >> Dynamite. [50:31] >> Dynamite. [50:31] >> Fast. [50:32] >> So good. [50:33] >> Yeah. [50:34] >> And he's so slick in how he moves in and [50:36] out. Like [50:37] >> No, that's uh that's the the next [50:40] generation. Yeah. He's the future. [50:41] >> Yeah. I mean, he's like our generation's [50:43] Mike Tyson. Well, you watch him. He's 21 [50:45] years old. He's coming up and you're [50:46] like, "Holy shit." He's like, [50:49] >> but other than I mean but he's doesn't [50:50] have enough experience yet and doesn't [50:52] have enough name yet for what he really [50:54] is and what his potential is. One day [50:57] will happen but for you [50:58] >> and for Usyk that and for heavyweight [51:01] boxing that's the vibe. [51:02] >> Yeah, 100% 100%. [51:04] >> I wish I was a promoter. [51:05] >> Yeah, [laughter] [51:07] >> maybe we get Dana White to get Zufa [51:09] involved. [51:09] >> Oh, [snorts] that would be crazy. [51:10] >> I don't know. What is does does uh is [51:13] there some sort of a deal that uh Usyk [51:15] has with anybody? I don't think so [51:17] because I I believe that is one of the [51:20] reasons as well why he vacated those [51:24] belts because [51:25] >> he doesn't want to deal with anybody [51:26] else. [51:27] >> No, because you when you have those [51:28] belts, you get forced [51:30] >> into fights, [51:31] >> right? [51:32] >> Like, okay, you're mandatory to fight [51:34] this guy. And that was the the I think [51:36] for him, [51:37] >> the position that he was in fighting me, [51:41] >> he could like that was a voluntary [51:43] defense. and he decided like, hey, I [51:46] would love to do this on my terms, [51:49] right, versus another guy. And [51:51] >> I think they looked at it like this [51:54] maybe going to be an easier fight, so [51:56] this is nice to do. [laughter] That [51:58] didn't go the way his planned, but [52:00] [gasps] [52:01] uh but still, I think that's where where [52:04] his mind is at now. like he like he's [52:06] like I just want to do what I want to do [52:08] which makes so much sense after what [52:10] what he has accomplished as a as [52:12] >> after what he's accomplished he should [52:14] be able to call his own shots and I want [52:15] him to make the most money possible [52:17] because he is a legend [52:18] >> but that's this that's like this is the [52:21] fight this is [52:21] >> but the problem is it might be too hard [52:24] >> it might be too hard it might be one of [52:25] those ones where which is why maybe you [52:27] know no disrespect to Deonte but he [52:29] might be looking at Deontay thinking [52:31] Deontay is a little softer [52:33] >> yeah and we're going to ride into the [52:35] sunset. [52:35] >> Yeah. Go out big spectacular knockout. [52:38] >> Yeah. But it's also then like you said, [52:40] it's not going to be the the big money [52:41] grab that because [52:44] if you ask me a [52:45] >> lot of people going to pay for that. [52:46] >> No, exactly. They're not going to be [52:47] paid that that crazy money for it. [52:49] >> It's not a big pay-per-view fight. [52:51] That's the thing. It's like people will [52:53] watch it just because he's an all-time [52:55] great and anytime Usyk fights, people [52:57] are going to watch. And Deonte still, [53:00] >> he's still the greatest one punch [53:02] knockout artist in the history of sport. [53:03] Because you never know what's going to [53:05] happen when he fights. [53:06] >> You lose is the power. His power is [53:08] [ __ ] crazy. [53:09] >> Yeah. He's G he can finish you in the in [53:11] the 10th. [53:12] >> Yeah. With one shot. Pl, you know, [53:15] >> coming out of nowhere. [53:16] >> Yeah. He hit Ortiz on the top of the [53:17] head and put him out. I was like, that [53:19] is nuts, man. [53:20] >> Yeah. Different level of power. [53:22] >> Different level of power. But again, 40 [53:24] years old. It's twilight of his career [53:27] and this hasn't looked good in the last, [53:30] you know, last few years. But for Usyk [53:33] to want that fight signals to me that he [53:35] just, you know, wants to just go out [53:37] with one more payday and that's it. And [53:39] I don't know if that was his choice that [53:41] fight. Maybe that's just the internet [53:42] talking. Yeah. [53:43] >> Maybe that's Deontay Wilder's team wants [53:45] that fight. [53:46] >> I don't know. [53:47] >> Yeah. I don't know. I don't know either. [53:48] But like I said, I got I got all the [53:50] options. They gave me all the options. [53:51] Like, hey, you want to fight this guy? [53:52] You want to fight that guy? [53:53] >> So, have they talked to you about MMA as [53:55] well? [53:56] >> Uh, yeah. [53:57] >> Yeah. But yeah, I'm I'm keeping the [54:00] options open. But [54:02] >> you're leaning towards boxing? [54:03] >> Yeah, because I've been in in the boxing [54:05] game now and I've enjoyed it so much. [54:08] And that's [snorts] like for me, like I [54:11] just said, like I came from kickboxing [54:12] from being six years old and doing it [54:14] for over 30 years. And then now getting [54:18] really into boxing. I was always boxing, [54:20] but I was boxing to kickboxing. It's a [54:22] totally different game. I had to rewire [54:25] everything [54:26] >> that that was in there. [54:28] >> So [54:30] now that I did it and I performed the [54:33] way that I performed, I was like, "Yeah, [54:35] this was fun." This episode is sponsored [54:38] by BetterHelp. You've probably heard [54:40] about BetterHelp before, but maybe you [54:43] haven't heard from those who have [54:44] actually used BetterHelp. That feedback [54:47] can tell you everything you need to [54:49] know. Go to betterhelp.com/reviews [54:52] and check out the feedback from hundreds [54:55] of people saying how much they love this [54:57] service. It's easy to see why. To get [55:00] started, all you have to do is answer a [55:02] few questions. You'll get matched up [55:03] with a therapist based on your needs. [55:06] And if it's not the right fit, you can [55:08] switch therapists at any time. See the [55:11] reviews, see what stands out, and see if [55:13] BetterHelp is right for you. Visit [55:15] betterhelp.com/jre. [55:19] That's betterh ELP.comjre. [55:24] [laughter] [55:24] >> I really enjoyed that. [55:25] >> Also, that is the glory division, no pun [55:28] intended, of the heavyweight division is [55:30] the heavyweight division or of of box of [55:32] box of box of box of box of box of box [55:32] of box of box of box of boxing rather is [55:33] the heavyweight division. The [55:34] heavyweight division is where the real [55:35] money is at always. [55:36] >> That is the baddest boxing. It's always [55:38] been that way. [55:39] >> And for you after that performance, I [55:41] got to think there's a lot of options [55:42] for you. Yeah, like I said, we they [55:45] threw us so many stuff at us, but we're [55:48] like, hey, we take our time, look at the [55:50] different options, and of course, still [55:53] uh his excellency has our first [55:56] preference because they gave us the [56:01] opportunity, [56:01] >> right? [56:02] >> When Yeah, we had we had [56:04] >> What was it like to fight in front of [56:06] the pyramids? That's crazy, too. [56:08] >> It was insane [56:09] >> outside. [56:10] >> It was insane, Joe. It's like [56:13] let me tell you another story. Um so [56:16] that happened uh also while I was in [56:19] this camp. Uh it's not a nice nice thing [56:22] to say but my mother passed away during [56:26] uh the moment I was in camp for this [56:28] fight and well that happened. It was it [56:32] was hard. And then we had to clean out [56:33] her house and then finally doing that [56:37] and cleaning everything. And then we [56:39] come by a bunch of pictures and yeah, [56:43] you can see it on my Instagram. And then [56:45] I see the pictures of my mother 30 years [56:48] prior being in front of the pyramids. [56:52] It's like, wow, why do I see these [56:55] pictures now knowing that this fight is [56:58] in front of the pyramids? was [57:00] mind-blowing. And so for me it was like [57:04] full circle going back. I I like [57:07] literally made the same pictures my [57:09] mother made 30 years prior before the [57:11] fight in front of the swings in front of [57:14] the pyramids and that was like uh [57:16] goosebumps. So for me having that whole [57:19] experience being in front of the [57:20] pyramids doing that [57:23] >> was like full circle. When did they come [57:26] up with that idea to have you guys fight [57:28] in front of the pyramids? [57:30] >> Well, [57:32] the way they [57:33] >> Look at that. Yeah, [57:34] >> that's crazy. [57:36] That really is crazy. [57:39] Wow. [57:44] [sighs] [57:45] Wow. Yeah, [57:50] that [snorts] really is wild. Yeah. [57:56] still uh [57:59] I don't know still like [58:02] >> of course of course [58:05] >> so it was such [58:05] >> so when did they come up with the idea [58:08] of having a heavyweight title fight in [58:10] front of the pyramids [58:13] >> yeah so [58:15] the communication is always like really [58:18] like straightforward and it they don't [58:22] say too much [laughter] So the way it [58:24] began like the first thing I got was [58:27] just like an WhatsApp picture. [58:30] We're thinking about this location. [58:32] [laughter] [58:33] That was that was the thing because [58:36] first I saw the picture, I opened it [58:39] like, "Oh, it's the pyramids. Nice." And [58:42] then after that I looked at we're [58:44] looking we're thinking about this [58:45] location like okay but how are you going [58:48] to do that? Like to me it didn't make [58:50] too much sense. And then afterwards they [58:53] said like they sent me a video like yeah [58:54] we're gonna do it here. It's going to be [58:55] outside and it's like oh my god it's [58:58] gonna be outside in front of the [58:59] pyramids. It's like [59:02] mindblowing. And that was that was also [59:05] a thing that's what I said like if it it [59:07] was like the rumble in the jungle, [59:10] >> right? [59:11] >> But then with that being said, what [59:16] people thought like what what is this [59:18] guy talking about? Is he putting himself [59:20] in the same category as as Ali and [59:24] Foreman or whatever? What what is he? [59:25] >> No, that's not what I'm saying. I mean [59:27] about the location. I never put myself [59:30] in that. Everybody that knows me like [59:32] I'm I'm super humble. So I never would [59:35] would say something like that, but [59:36] that's what I meant. Like it was [59:38] something like the Rumble in the Jungle [59:40] because we're talking about the [59:41] location, [59:42] >> right? Like [59:43] >> the location was a part of the [59:44] experience. [59:45] >> Exactly. It was it was insane, Joe. [59:48] like and then for me they asked me like [59:50] Rico can we ask you to do like a certain [59:53] choreography okay I don't want to do too [59:55] much I want to focus on fighting us so [59:58] okay only thing you got to do is like [59:59] punch the ground and then the ground is [60:01] going to crack open and then we're going [60:03] to like for the first time that evening [60:05] boom we're going to turn on the pyramids [60:08] so that's cool that sounds good I'll do [60:10] that [laughter] so I did that but it so [60:13] I punched the ground I turn around and [60:16] for the first time we see like the [60:18] ground cracking open and then then the [60:21] the lights shine onto the pyramids. Wow. [60:24] >> Wow. [60:24] >> It was it was a goosebump moment. [60:26] >> Was that your first time being at the [60:27] pyramids? [60:28] >> Yeah. [60:28] >> Yeah. So that's why this whole picture [60:30] and this whole thing was for me it was [60:32] like a full circle like wow it was such [60:34] a special moment such a special event. [60:38] Uh and then okay then I turn around then [60:40] my whole theme song comes up. You know [60:42] how you know how I run to the to the [60:44] ring. [60:45] >> Yeah. But that wasn't like a real [60:47] catwalk. And during the day, I already [60:49] went to see like what they expected from [60:51] me and like how I'm going to and there [60:53] was like some some small steps like down [60:56] like five or six. But then I hear my [60:59] song. I do my thing and I do and I run [61:03] to the ring, but I was like walking [61:06] straight onto these steps. I'm like, am [61:08] I going to take these steps fast? I'm [61:10] like, no, [ __ ] him. I'll just jump down. [61:13] I just decided that at the moment and [61:16] then I I landed. It was like oh this was [61:19] higher than I expected [laughter] [61:21] and I just kept on running. It's like [61:23] >> just think about like maybe I just like [61:25] spray my ankle or something like jumping [61:27] from that crazy like that. [laughter] [61:32] >> Oh my god. And it was so funny because [61:34] after afterwards the cameraman he woke [61:37] up to me. He's like I almost missed you. [61:39] You you you were jumping down just like [61:41] I'm looking at you looking at you like [61:42] whoa you were gone. [gasps and laughter] [61:44] >> That was wild. [61:45] >> Yeah, it was it was wild. It was outside [61:48] and it was the temperature was was [61:49] actually was was pretty good. [61:51] >> What was the temperature? [61:53] >> I think it was like 20 20°. [61:55] >> So that's what is that? It's like 70 [61:58] something. [61:59] >> Yeah, sure. [62:01] [laughter] [62:02] >> Real swirly in that in the real mid [62:03] part. [62:04] >> Yeah. What's that, Jamie? I mean 100, [62:06] you know, is boiling and 212 is boiling [62:08] for Fahrenheit, but like zero and 30, I [62:10] don't know. Yeah, somewhere in the [62:11] middle. [62:12] >> Put it in the [62:13] >> I will here. I'll do it right here. [62:14] >> I have this on the screen. I can't. [62:16] >> What is 20° Celsius in Fahrenheit? [62:21] >> 68. Oh, perfect. [62:22] >> So, that that was nice. So, you're like, [62:25] and I I run and I whoop, I just [62:27] [laughter] I just jumped down. [gasps] [62:31] >> Wow. [62:31] >> Oh, no. It was so cool. Did it feel any [62:33] different than any other fight you've [62:34] had before? No. [62:35] >> No. [62:36] >> We've had so much. What is How many [62:38] kickboxing fights have you had? [62:40] >> 75 something. [62:42] >> 75. That's crazy. [62:44] >> Yeah, [62:44] >> that is crazy. [62:46] >> Yeah, there was Yeah, it was [62:47] >> that's a giant huge advantage of having [62:51] so much combat sports experience, you [62:52] know. [62:52] >> Yeah. But but where everybody was [62:54] leaning towards was like this guy has [62:57] one professional boxing fight. What is [62:58] he doing there? This doesn't make any [63:00] sense. Like guys, I've been in and [63:03] around the ring for quite a while now. [63:05] Like [63:06] >> I have a bunch of friends of mine that [63:07] are just boxing fans. Yeah. And they [63:09] were talking all kinds of [ __ ] Like you [63:11] know, [63:11] >> oh, so I had so many apologies. [63:13] [laughter] I had so many Rico about so [63:16] many famous boxers and like I didn't [63:19] know what you were capable of, but damn, [63:22] this was this was crazy. Like, oh, thank [63:24] you. Appreciate that. Quite honestly, I [63:26] didn't know what you're going to be [63:27] capable of either because I knew you as [63:29] a kickboxer were one of the greatest of [63:31] all time, but as a boxer, I hadn't seen [63:34] I'm like, you're taking away one of his [63:36] biggest weapons, which is the low kicks. [63:38] I mean, your low kicks are phenomenal. [63:40] You have to treat trunk legs, [laughter] [63:42] >> you know? So, I was like, that's a giant [63:43] weapon that's removed from him. Like, [63:45] we'll see. He's also fighting one of the [63:47] greatest of all time, if not the [63:48] greatest boxer of all time in the [63:50] heavyweight division. But to have that [63:52] kind of a performance and to do it the [63:55] way you did it, it's like, man, it was [63:58] it was amazing to watch. It was to as a [64:00] person who likes watching combat sports, [64:02] it was one of the most exciting things [64:03] I'd ever watched. [64:04] >> Yeah. Thank you so much, Joe. I [64:05] appreciate that. But for me, I think [64:08] what worked the in my advantage the most [64:12] was if you look at kickboxing and it's [64:14] logical like physically is like you're [64:18] so square on and everybody thought that [64:21] was what I was going to do. [64:23] >> Mhm. [64:23] >> But I was boxing always to kickbox. So, [64:28] but Peter Fury has been telling me to do [64:30] get more on the side [64:32] for years. But how as a kickboxer, am I [64:35] gonna be more on the side? They're gonna [64:36] kick my leg off. Yeah. [64:38] >> Because I can't block anymore. Yeah. [64:39] >> So, [64:40] >> I was constantly trying to find the the [64:43] balance within that. And now [64:46] >> Peter was super happy because now [64:48] finally he could teach me boxing to box. [64:52] >> Right. So I had proper stance [64:54] >> every time like, "Okay, go more to the [64:56] side. More to the side because you [64:57] you're too square on a go back. Go." So [65:00] I needed [65:01] >> the six months. Mhm. [65:03] >> It so much hard work we we had to put [65:06] into that. [65:07] >> Did you find yourself like having to [65:10] correct it mentally or did it get to a [65:12] point where it was instinctive the [65:14] stance and the positioning? [65:16] >> We had to I had to definitely correct [65:18] and they had to tell me. [65:20] >> But were you correcting in the fight? In [65:21] the fight was it down? Was it [65:23] instinctive? [65:23] >> In the fight it was [65:24] >> you gotten it in. [65:25] >> We got it down but in within the whole [65:27] prep it was [65:28] >> So you really [clears throat] do need [65:29] the six months for that. [65:30] >> 100%. 100%. So for me [65:34] um this this whole experience of getting [65:37] into boxing like it was perfect. It was [65:41] perfect for everybody around it. It was [65:44] it was really terrible of course where [65:46] where uh Anthony Joshua went through and [65:48] everything. So that the most horrific [65:51] thing ever. But for me getting into the [65:54] transition to boxing, I needed that time [65:57] to get like a clean uh transition. And [66:01] that's why I was super happy with with [66:03] the the six months and the change of of [66:06] fights of still I still I believe like [66:08] the the Anthony Joshua fight is still a [66:10] big fight that we that we could do. But [66:14] yeah, getting the opportunity to fight [66:16] for a boxing heavyweight title is on [66:18] another level big of course. [66:20] >> Oh yeah, it's gigantic. And and also [66:22] I've got to think that from that [66:24] experience, you're even better now. [66:27] >> You have to be better. You just we're in [66:29] there with the best guy ever. [66:30] >> Yeah, 100%. But the the funny thing is [66:32] like uh that's why I made the meme of uh [66:37] of Jim Carrey like [laughter] and [66:40] because everybody was like he he's [66:42] moving pretty strange. [laughter] What [66:44] is he what is he doing? But we knew that [66:47] that thing would work [laughter] versus [66:51] versus Usyk. And but we got so many more [66:55] tools in the toolbox that we can pull [66:57] out because in another fight versus a [67:00] different fighter, we're going to show a [67:02] whole different Rico again. But if we're [67:04] going to fight Usyk again, it's going to [67:06] be slightly different. But it's [snorts] [67:08] still like basically the the strategy [67:10] worked [67:11] >> well. You gave him so many things to [67:13] think about constantly. Yeah. There was [67:15] no time to set. No, [67:16] >> there was always chaos. There was always [67:18] hands moving. There was always your [67:20] body's moving, you're moving forward, [67:22] you're shuffling around. It was so much [67:24] activity that his mind has to constantly [67:27] process all these different things. [67:28] >> But normally that is what he [snorts] [67:29] does. [67:30] >> Yes. [67:31] >> And that's if you look at the whole [67:32] heavyweight division, all the his [67:34] previous fights, he was in control. He [67:37] was showing them so much. If you have [67:39] something to look at the whole time, [67:41] it's like it keeps you, it gets your [67:43] mind out of what you want to do because [67:45] you're constantly anticipating what your [67:47] opponent is doing. [67:49] >> So that's [67:50] >> Yeah. What we try to do, we try to take [67:52] that from him. [67:53] >> What were you doing for conditioning? [67:55] Like I just want to know what your [67:57] conditioning is like in general because [67:59] you are such a big guy and to be that [68:02] big and have that kind of cardio is very [68:05] extraordinary. [68:07] Um, [68:10] do I agree? Do I agree? Maybe partially [68:13] I agree with that because [68:17] to be honest at the top, Joe, everybody [68:19] works hard, right? That's what I do. I [68:21] just work incredibly hard. But [68:25] I believe that mentally when you get [68:30] tired or when your body gives signals of [68:33] starting feel to feel tired, [68:36] how do you cope with that in your mind? [68:40] That's that's where I think the the [68:42] biggest difference is because if at the [68:45] moment I feel I'm getting tired, then I [68:48] know my opponent is [68:51] feeling [ __ ] [68:52] >> Right. Right. Right. because I know how [68:54] hard I work to be fit and to do [68:57] everything possible to be in the best [68:59] shape ever. Because if you look at [69:02] training schedules or whatever from my [69:05] schedule versus another guy's schedule, [69:07] I [69:09] find it hard to believe that I'm [69:10] training so much harder than all the [69:12] other top guys. Yeah, that's my opinion. [69:15] I find that hard to believe. [69:18] So, for me, it's just like a mental [69:20] thing. As soon as I start feeling it, [69:23] like, okay, now the fight starts. [69:26] >> Well, there's certain [69:28] certain people have genetics that lean [69:30] towards better cardio and conditioning. [69:32] Like in the UFC, Kane Velasquez was [69:34] famous for that. He's a monster. [69:36] >> He just had insane cardio for a [69:37] heavyweight. [69:38] >> Um, but for you, are are you um what I'm [69:42] getting at, how much time are you [69:44] spending on strength and conditioning [69:46] versus skill work? [69:48] >> I think it's pretty balanced. [69:51] It's pretty balanced. But for example, [69:53] everything I do is based on endurance. [69:57] So even the power I [69:59] >> I don't have to do 300 lb bench press, [70:03] >> right? [70:03] >> I don't care. I know I'm already big and [70:06] >> right. [70:07] >> I'm I'm I know I'm not the hardest [70:10] puncher within the game. I don't have to [70:12] be the hardest puncher in the game. [70:15] >> But as soon as I hit, I'm still a [70:16] heavyweight. still like 260 pounds [70:19] behind it. So when I hit you, you're [70:21] going to feel it. [70:23] >> So that's how we approach it. [70:26] >> I don't Yeah, just lean into what works [70:29] for you. I'm not the strongest puncher. [70:31] I also don't believe I'm the most [70:34] skillful, but I'm definitely the hardest [70:36] worker. And that's what we try to [70:39] emphasize like just keep working, keep [70:42] working hard. So we Yeah. The pace is [70:45] high. We can show a lot. We can do a [70:46] lot. [70:47] >> Do you have a guy that's just a strength [70:48] and conditioning guy that that And so [70:50] like what kind of work were you doing? [70:52] What kind of things are you doing? [70:53] >> I you want to know it all, right? [70:55] >> Yeah. I want to know it all. [70:56] >> I do a I do a full body full body [70:59] workout uh three times a week and [71:03] just a lot of reps. A lot of reps. [71:07] >> So this is more strength than [71:08] conditioning or is it both at the same [71:10] time? It's both at the same time because [71:13] >> what we do is we I have um [71:17] uh for example we do chest [71:19] >> and I do like 20 reps just the beginning [71:23] 20 reps then we get to another exercise [71:26] and then again I do 20 20 reps. So we do [71:29] 40 reps each and those reps are going to [71:32] go up the closer we get to the fight. [71:34] But the rest between the exercise is [71:37] just 30 seconds and then we change [71:40] exercise [71:41] >> and we go to a different muscle group [71:42] and then we go back to chest and then [71:45] again we do 20 30 seconds. Okay, we go [71:48] to a different muscle and the next again [71:50] 30 seconds. So it's the pace is is is [71:53] incredibly high and I think that whole [71:55] training takes maybe 35 40 minutes max. [72:00] Yeah, that's got to be a giant factor [72:02] because I don't know how many people are [72:03] doing that that way. You know, a lot of [72:06] guys are doing strength and or [72:07] conditioning. They're running, they're [72:09] hitting the bag, they're doing different [72:10] things. [72:10] >> Yeah. But for me, like I'm not focusing [72:12] on when I'm focusing on strength, I [72:15] don't want to be big. I feel like I'm [72:17] already pretty big, right? [72:18] >> And the more muscles I have, I have to [72:20] just carry them with me. And all those [72:22] muscles, they they want and they need [72:25] oxygen. So then my heart is going to be [72:27] like pumping just to get get that oxygen [72:29] there. No, I just focus on that. Boom. [72:32] And then I start with 20 and then I get [72:33] to 22s and then I get to 24s and then [72:36] with the same exact weight. So you get [72:39] so much stronger at the same time you [72:41] get so much fitter, [72:43] >> right? [72:43] >> And that combination just I don't know. [72:46] It's just it it's just been working for [72:48] us throughout the years. [72:49] >> So are you using uh apps and heart rate [72:53] monitors and things along those lines? [72:55] Yeah, we use hardware monitors. Um [72:58] do running um in different different [73:01] ways. We do the interval running, we do [73:03] the endurance running. Sometimes you [73:04] just run for an hour [73:07] and then you do the interval running. [73:10] >> Is this mostly treadmill work? [73:12] >> Yeah. [73:12] >> Yeah. [73:12] >> Yeah. Because like [73:15] my my body's Yeah. Been through a lot. [73:18] >> Right. So running on the concrete, [73:19] running outside, rough on the knees. [73:21] >> No, it's uh I don't believe it's smart. [73:24] So, I have this special uh treadmill [73:28] which I'm I can take some of my own [73:30] weight off. So, I have this big balloon [73:33] around me. [73:34] >> Oh, okay. I know what you're talking [73:35] about. I've seen those before. [73:36] >> Yeah. So, I got that uh since I had the [73:39] ACL surgery on the knee and ever since [73:43] I've just been using it and I love it. I [73:46] love it. So I can do the the running [73:50] experience and because I love running [73:52] because it's so hard. It's so heavy on [73:54] the body and and mentally it's so hard [73:57] but then I don't have the full force on [74:00] my joints like [74:01] >> Right. Right. Right. Right. [74:03] >> Just like Yeah. It's not good. [74:05] >> Well, I mean you got to think of all [74:07] those years of leg kicks. [74:09] >> Leg kicks and Oh my god. [74:12] Especially when I got the ACL. I was [74:14] like, "Oh my god, I'm so [74:15] >> How long ago did that happen?" [74:17] >> Three years ago. [74:17] >> Three years ago. [74:18] >> Yeah. I thought I thought I was done. [74:22] So much pain. So much pain. I was like, [74:24] "Why? I'm like getting close to the end [74:27] of my career. Now this happens." Like, [74:30] and then getting back from that within [74:33] six months. That was like because I had [74:36] a bucket handle miniscus [74:38] >> and I had the acco. [74:41] >> I had exactly the same thing. [74:42] >> Yeah. It was It was terrible. [74:43] >> Did they remove the meniscus? No. They [74:45] just stitched it up. [74:46] >> They stitch it back. So the first Yeah, [74:48] >> they know that now. [74:49] >> Yeah, but the first six weeks you're not [74:52] allowed to to put too much pressure on [74:54] it. [74:54] >> Right. [74:55] >> Right. [74:55] >> But oh my god, that was [74:56] >> they used to think that you should cut [74:58] the meniscus out and now they're they've [75:00] done studies and they find that there's [75:02] no benefit to that. And [75:03] >> of course, because it's your miniscus is [75:05] right between the bones or else it's [75:07] just bone on bone. Exactly. [75:10] >> Especially with with me being so heavy [75:13] and so big like in within 10 years [75:15] you're going to have trouble if we're [75:16] going to take it out. [75:17] >> Yeah. I have trouble on my left leg [75:19] because of that very reason. They took a [75:21] big piece of it out when I had the [75:22] bucket handle tear and it just that that [75:25] area hurts all the time. [75:26] >> Yeah. [75:27] >> Just it is what it is. Uh they do [75:29] cadaavver grafts where they take a [75:31] cadaavver meniscus and put it in place. [75:33] Yeah. They take a piece of meniscus out [75:34] of a dead guy. But it's doesn't always [75:38] work and you know you really have to be [75:40] young for it to work more effectively. I [75:42] guess they say that but that also could [75:45] be dependent upon what you're doing with [75:47] it like are you using peptides? Are you [75:49] using stem cells? Are you using [75:50] hyperbaric chamber? Are you using red [75:53] light therapy? Are you using all the [75:54] different modalities that could help you [75:56] heal quicker? [75:56] >> Yeah. [75:57] >> But yeah, they do. I know a guy who got [75:58] it done. [75:59] >> You definitely use everything because [76:00] you haven't aged a day since I since we [76:03] did the last show. So [76:04] >> I use everything. I don't I don't know [76:06] how you do it, but after the show, you [76:08] got to give me the recipe. [76:09] >> Well, I probably do a lot of the things [76:11] you do cuz I know you do cold plunge [76:12] every day. I love it. [76:13] >> I do that every morning. Um, and I do a [76:15] lot of sauna work, but I do a lot of red [76:17] light therapy. I do that at least four [76:20] or five times a week. I try to do it. [76:21] I've done uh I I have a hyperbaric [76:23] chamber. I do that a lot. I try to do [76:25] that as many days a week as I done that [76:27] two days in a row now. I like to do it [76:28] three, four days a week. If when I'm [76:31] really feeling better is when I'm doing [76:32] it three or four days a week [76:34] >> and just constantly training. Like you [76:36] have to can't get out of shape. [76:38] >> You do it all, right? You do. [76:39] >> Yeah. You can't get out of shape. [76:40] >> Yeah. [76:40] >> You get out of shape, you can't get back [76:42] in shape. But if you stay in shape, it's [76:44] remarkable how much you could keep it [76:46] going. Look at Bernard Hopkins. I mean, [76:48] he was performing at a world class world [76:50] championship level at 50 years old as a [76:53] boxer, which is nuts. [76:54] >> That's insane. And it's just because of [76:55] his discipline, you know, never got fat, [76:58] never got out of shape, always stayed in [76:59] the gym, never ate bad food, never [77:02] >> also mentally it keep it keeps you just [77:04] in balance. [77:05] >> Yeah. [77:05] >> Just being because that's what I believe [77:07] why just training in general for [77:10] everybody is so good because that's me [77:13] time. [77:14] >> Yep. [77:14] >> That's the time that you're working on [77:17] what is good for you and for your mental [77:19] health. And you're not thinking about, [77:20] hey, I'm I'm at work. I'm making money [77:23] to provide for the family or I'm doing [77:25] groceries for this. No, I'm in the gym [77:27] and I'm working on me. So, I can turn [77:30] your phone off. [77:31] >> Yep. [77:32] >> Listen to some music and just like work [77:34] on your body, on your mental health. [77:36] It's It's so good. And the effects of it [77:38] afterwards, the alleviation of anxiety [77:41] and pressure and just how good you feel, [77:44] the endorphins. [77:45] >> Yeah. I just wish people that don't do [77:47] it could understand that because so many [77:49] people they just have an aversion to the [77:52] hard work. They have an aversion to like [77:54] getting there. They just like, "Oh, I [77:56] don't want to do it. I don't want to do [77:57] it." But if you just do it, you'll feel [78:00] so much better. And then [78:01] >> everybody wants to talk about discipline [78:03] and discipline is very important. It's [78:05] the most important thing probably, but [78:07] almost equally important is momentum. [78:10] And once you have a few good days in a [78:12] row, the discipline is not as hard [78:15] anymore because now you have momentum. [78:17] >> Yeah, 100%. You're right. But the thing [78:20] is [78:21] what happens, same with the cold plunge [78:24] that we do multiple times a week or [78:26] almost every day is like some days, same [78:29] as going to work or whatever, you just [78:31] wake up and you just do not feel like [78:35] doing it. [78:35] >> Yeah. But [laughter] then the discipline [78:38] comes in like I do not I do not feel [78:41] like doing it [78:42] >> but I am going to do it because [78:44] >> if I can do it on the days that I do not [78:46] feel like doing it every other day is [78:49] going to be easy. [78:50] >> Yes. [78:50] >> And that's the for me [78:52] >> what I felt like like I was just uh [78:54] sharing with you like what I find so [78:56] hard for example with the with the [78:59] losing and that that the the mistakes [79:01] that I made that's what I've been doing [79:03] like to be honest my whole life. That's [79:05] what I'm trying to work on now is like [79:08] everything that happened in my life like [79:11] it's been some crazy like my mother [79:13] passed away within this preparation and [79:16] I do not take the time to [79:20] to really take that [79:24] >> take it in like what just happened [79:26] >> and I had the same thing with my father [79:28] was like right before the Ben Sadi fight [79:30] and I just take it and I continue [79:32] because what I do I take it and It's a [79:35] certain emotional pain and I use that to [79:40] put it in physical pain so I can use it [79:43] as [snorts] [79:45] fuel [79:48] for what I do in the ring and whatever [79:50] for as my job. But I feel like [79:54] personally in relationships and [79:57] just in general in just living I think [80:01] that's not the way to cope with it. So [80:03] that's what I'm trying to work on now. [80:04] >> So it's very difficult to be balanced if [80:07] you also want to be excellent. [80:08] >> Yeah. [80:09] >> If you want to be the best, you know, if [80:11] you want to be and accomplish what [80:13] you've accomplished, you have to be [80:15] obsessed. And if you have to be [80:16] obsessed, it's almost impossible to be [80:18] balanced. It's almost impossible to have [80:21] a balanced life and also be obsessed on [80:23] a goal. No, [80:24] >> 100%. But it I don't feel like it's it's [80:27] so much about the balance, but it's just [80:30] not the way to [80:32] to cope with with life in general next [80:36] to being an athlete and being a fighter, [80:38] which is a big part of what you do, but [80:40] just like in general, like, okay, how do [80:43] you [80:44] >> how do you cope with with things, [80:46] especially now with this, for example, [80:48] with this loss is like, how do I find a [80:52] way to give this [80:56] this loss and and a way of like okay [80:58] that I can [81:00] work with it without like feeling [81:02] feeling frustrated or like oh I got [81:05] robbed or whatever right [81:07] >> so and I feel like that's getting better [81:09] so [81:10] >> I I watched my mom funeral back like I [81:15] think like [81:18] four or five weeks ago for the very [81:19] first time so she passed away in [81:21] February that's when I've watched it [81:23] back for the first time just [81:25] to take it all in again and again. And I [81:28] went like all the way through it and I'm [81:30] like, okay, I need to to do that more to [81:33] get I don't know if it's balanced or [81:35] just I don't know just to get like a way [81:38] of feeling like yeah, I can [81:43] I can take that that emotion in because [81:46] now I just every time I'm just pushing [81:49] that emotion away and just using it as [81:52] fuel to [81:55] be a fighter and be the best version of [81:57] within the ring, but like as a [82:00] >> as a person, I don't feel like it's it's [82:02] a healthy way to just like keep pushing [82:04] everything. [82:05] >> No, pushing it down. [82:08] >> Well, it's great that you recognize [82:09] that, though, and that will definitely [82:11] help you as you transition from being a [82:13] fighter to being a retired fighter and [82:15] doing whatever else you want to do. You [82:17] have so much time left in your life to [82:19] do anything. [82:19] >> Yeah, 100%. Recognizing that that is an [82:22] issue is huge for for your ability to [82:26] move on to do other things because [82:28] >> 100% [82:28] >> that's a giant struggle for a lot of [82:30] fighters that the struggle especially [82:32] fighters that have competed at your [82:34] level you know the glory the excitement [82:36] the the the chaos of it all is so huge [82:40] >> that to step away from that it's very [82:42] very difficult for a lot of guys [82:44] >> yeah that that's why I'm so happy and I [82:45] also believe that what gave me this is [82:49] that I found my new passion within [82:52] acting. [82:54] But [82:55] >> so being on on set with Jake Gyllenhaal, [83:00] with Dave Batista, with Eldis Hodgej, [83:05] and those guys being so excellent at [83:07] what they're doing as actors, and then [83:09] just talking with them about this, I [83:12] think that also gave me more and more [83:16] that realization of, hey, [83:19] instead of just like pushing it away, I [83:21] can use those emotions um that feeling [83:25] to be [83:26] an actor at a certain point. So, [83:30] and I always said like I just oh just [83:33] kept pushing it away. I don't want to [83:34] feel it. I don't want to feel it. And as [83:36] soon as I feel it, I I turn it into [83:38] physical pain. So, I know I get a be a [83:40] better version of me within the ring. [83:41] So, I hear what you're saying. But if [83:44] you want to get into acting, it's good [83:46] to feel because as soon as you feel, [83:48] it's even better. is going to transition [83:50] even better on camera because then we [83:52] see that you're feeling something and if [83:55] it if it comes out of your own [83:56] experience it's even better. It hurts [83:59] still but you can turn into something [84:01] positive and that's where where I'm [84:05] really happy about like after being a [84:08] fighter I really found my new passion [84:10] within acting because it's so much fun [84:13] >> so much fun be on set and [84:16] >> yeah being great at something else. [84:18] Yeah, that's great that you found [84:19] something else you're excited about. [84:20] That's really important. Very important. [84:23] So, how many movies have you done? [84:25] >> Uh, I did a few. Did a few. I think like [84:27] a handful. [snorts] And I think the the [84:29] most recognizable things I did was Den [84:32] of Thieves, Panta. Den of Thieves 2. [84:34] >> Oh, nice. [84:35] >> Uh, with Gerard and O'Shea Jackson Jr. [84:38] and the last one, Roadhouse. So, and of [84:41] course, I've been uh yeah, I've been [84:43] talking with Jason like [84:46] for quite some time now to do something [84:48] together. So, we're looking at different [84:50] different options like, "Hey, we could [84:52] do this." But he's like he has a certain [84:56] focus on what he what he sees like, [84:59] "Hey, Rico, I want you to do like this [85:02] type of movie and I want you to be this [85:04] type of character because I don't want [85:06] you to die and I want you to do this and [85:07] I want you to [laughter] do that." [85:09] So it's Yeah. For him being Yeah. so [85:12] experienced within that world, I just [85:14] >> Well, also him coming as an athlete as [85:17] well, like he was a world class diver, [85:19] right? [85:20] >> Yeah. [85:21] >> Yeah. So, and he's he's a he's a martial [85:23] arts fanatic. He loves it. [85:26] >> He loves it. [85:27] >> Yeah. [85:27] >> So, uh so that's Yeah. That's that's [85:29] amazing. So, and then Yeah. telling him [85:31] that like, "Hey, I love the X." So, I he [85:33] comes to my fights. I visit him on set [85:36] like, "Hey, I just look at what he does [85:38] and how he does it. It's Yeah, it's out [85:40] of this world. It's the next level." [85:42] >> Well, that's so good that you have [85:44] something that you're really excited [85:45] about as you retire like transitioning [85:47] into that and that you already have some [85:49] success with that. [85:50] >> Yeah, 100%. [85:51] >> Huge 100%. [85:52] >> And Dave Bautista is another one like [85:54] right like huge success in WWE went on [85:57] to do that and now he's done a ton of [85:59] movies. [85:59] >> Yeah. And he's he's really good. [86:01] >> Yeah, he's really good. He's a very good [86:03] actor. [86:03] >> Yeah. It's not just like, oh, he's an [86:05] athlete that that tried to do some [86:07] acting. No, he's he's a really good [86:09] actor and he showed so many different [86:11] sides of himself. [86:13] >> He was great in that. What was it? The [86:14] Glass Onion. Was that what it was [86:15] called? [86:16] >> Yeah. [86:18] >> Yeah. The What is that? [86:21] >> Knives Out. [86:22] >> Yeah. [86:24] >> Knives Out. Glass Onion, right? That's [86:26] what it was called. He was great in [86:27] that. [86:28] >> Yeah. [86:28] >> He's great. He's I mean again it's like [86:31] you see these big guys and you say oh [86:33] they're big and they're just going to [86:35] play a brute but no it's like he's a [86:37] human. [86:38] >> Yeah. [86:38] >> Human beings have depth. He could do a [86:40] lot of different things. [86:41] >> Yeah. Exactly. So [86:42] >> he's got a he's losing weight now to [86:44] like show he's like [86:45] >> Yeah. But he looks he looks amazing. [86:47] [ __ ] gigantic. [86:48] >> Yeah. He's still big. [86:49] >> He's still 200. I mean like Oh, he's so [86:51] small. He's 240. He's huge. [86:53] >> No, he's huge. And he's in great shape. [86:55] >> He's in great shape. I mean he's the [86:56] nicest guy as well. [86:57] >> Oh, that's cool. He's the nicest guy. [86:59] So, we had No, we had a lot of fun. We [87:01] had a lot of fun. So, it was such an [87:02] honor to be there on set with them and [87:05] on such a big production like wow look [87:08] at [87:08] >> So, how do you balance that out? Like [87:10] now that you like as you said, you're in [87:12] the winter of your career. Uh would you [87:14] accept a movie role right now if you [87:17] knew that a big fight could potentially [87:19] happen? [87:19] >> No. [87:20] >> So, you have to be careful right now. [87:22] >> Yeah. Yeah. For me it's like I'm focused [87:24] on [87:25] finishing that and as soon as as I then [87:28] I have a movie like okay but then I'm [87:31] not going to do a fight that's it's [87:33] going to be hard. So, and especially uh [87:37] within the other one, I didn't really [87:39] get the option because I was on [87:41] Roadhouse and then I got the Anthony [87:43] Joshua fight, but [87:45] back then I was just the kickboxer, [87:47] right? [87:48] >> The kickboxer world champion, but that [87:50] didn't really say too much. So, I was in [87:54] the underdog position. I was in the [87:56] passenger seat. [87:57] >> Now, I show what I can do. So, now I got [88:01] a little more like, "Yo, guys, I got a [88:02] movie. So, can we push the fight a [88:04] little bit further so I have the time to [88:06] get ready for it? [88:07] >> Right? [88:07] >> So, that's that's better now. But for [88:10] me, I would never [88:12] blend those two together or like, hey, [88:14] okay, let me finish this movie real [88:16] quick and then go straight into a fight [88:18] camp that's going to be like, uh, two, [88:20] two and a half months. I need a good [88:22] like clean four months to get ready for [88:24] a fight of this magnitude. [88:27] >> Right. So, um, [88:30] when you're talking about these [88:32] different conversations that people have [88:33] had with you, is the door completely [88:35] closed to the UFC? Because I know that [88:37] they did contact you and you were talk [88:39] they were talking about you fighting and [88:42] that they were going to try to do that [88:43] Derrick Lewis fight. I was excited about [88:45] that. [88:45] >> Yeah. [88:45] >> But the money was nowhere near I'm sure [88:48] the money that you got for the fight. [88:50] >> So, I believe that that the gap is even [88:52] bigger now. [88:53] >> Yeah, [laughter] [88:54] for sure. So I think that's that's where [88:57] that's where the the actual problem is [88:59] just to be completely transparent. So [89:01] for me it doesn't make any sense to [89:04] >> right [89:05] >> go around the bush or whatever and go [89:06] backwards. [89:07] >> No financially. Yeah. I [89:09] >> if if they would want to do something it [89:12] really has to make sense. But yeah we [89:14] all know that [89:15] >> yeah that's not really like how the UFC [89:18] works. So I don't believe that that is [89:20] an option. That's interesting because [89:23] >> their heavyweight division is so um Have [89:27] you ever worked with Tom Aspenol? [89:28] >> Of course. He's he's a very good friend [89:30] of mine. Oh, really? We trained we [89:32] trained. [89:32] >> I see video of you guys training. [89:34] >> Yeah, we trained so much already for [89:35] like I think close to 10 years. [89:37] >> Man, he got a bad deal. He got really [89:38] [ __ ] over um for that that fight. You [89:42] know, the way people got upset at him [89:44] for stopping the fight uh with those eye [89:47] pokes that to me that drove me crazy. [89:50] Like what do you expect the guy to do? [89:52] He's defending the heavyweight title. He [89:54] get poked in the eyes and he can't [89:55] [ __ ] see. And he's had two eye [89:57] surgeries since then. [89:58] >> And he's the he's the nicest guy. He's [90:00] the nicest guy and he works incredibly [90:03] hard and he would never never even [90:06] though because I understand where it [90:10] comes from from the people to a certain [90:12] extent because they feel like hey God [90:14] was doing so good in the beginning of [90:16] the fight but it was just the beginning [90:18] of the fight. it was just like the first [90:20] round or whatever. So, it's possible [90:22] that hey, if was because of some ring [90:24] rush, he had to get into it and then the [90:26] fight ain't over till it's over, right? [90:28] So, you can have an opinion about that [90:31] the first round and I get an eye poke. [90:33] Oh, now he's going to stop because he [90:34] knew he was behind or whatever. He would [90:37] never never in whatever world do that [90:40] because he has looked at the eye poke [90:43] his he was knuckled deep in his eye. [90:46] >> It was like gone. [90:47] >> Yeah. I mean, unfortunately, Sirill gone [90:50] has a history of doing that. He's done [90:51] that [90:52] >> also. And definitely I I truly believe [90:53] because I know Sirill as well. He's also [90:55] a very nice guy and I do not believe [90:58] he's doing that intentionally [91:00] >> to [91:02] [ __ ] with people or whatever. [91:03] >> It's just a bad instinct that keeps [91:05] happening, you know, guy charging at [91:08] you. You're doing this and you're [91:10] running right into eyeballs. It's just [91:12] >> they they need to stop doing it, you [91:15] know. I mean, there's there's a bunch of [91:17] different conversations about how to [91:19] stop it. Yeah. One of them is change the [91:21] gloves. Um the you don't need open [91:24] fingers like that. They don't have you [91:26] don't need that for grappling. No, they [91:27] could cover the tip of it like a mitten, [91:29] >> you know, and there's there's a way to [91:31] do that where it would probably [91:32] eliminate a lot of the eye pokes. [91:34] Another one is there's a guy named [91:36] Trevor Whitman from Onyx Sports who's [91:38] Justin Gate's trainer who's makes a much [91:40] better glove. Okay. In his glove, your [91:43] hand is in this position all the time. [91:45] Instead of the UFC glove, UFC glove, [91:47] your hands like this. You have to pull [91:49] it down to tighten up the fist. In this [91:52] in with Trevor's gloves, it's curved [91:54] like this. So, this is a natural [91:56] position. So, you would like when Muay [91:59] Thai fighters like serial gun, they they [92:01] frame off like that all the time, right? [92:03] You know that. So, [92:04] >> when you have those UFC gloves, you're [92:06] framing off like this. [92:06] >> Yeah. [92:07] >> And that's when you're running into eye [92:08] pokes, you know? So they try to tell you [92:10] keep your fingers up, which is great, [92:11] but sometimes it doesn't work that way. [92:13] >> Exactly. You can't especially if you're [92:14] leaning away. [92:15] >> Yeah. [92:16] >> You know, I don't think Sirill Ganon's a [92:17] dirty fighter. I just think he's trying [92:19] to finish fights. Like Alex Pereira [92:21] thought he was dirty for hitting him in [92:23] the back of the head. And I watched the [92:24] fight over again to watch it. And what I [92:27] saw is Alex is moving. Serial's trying [92:29] to hit him. And sometimes when that [92:32] happens, some of the shots are going to [92:33] land on the back of the head. But [92:36] >> but is it the referee that needs to like [92:38] say like, "Hey, stop it." Yeah, we're [92:40] fighting so you you got to try punch [92:42] wherever you get a punch. [92:43] >> It's hard because you're also like you [92:46] he might not have the best position to [92:47] see it cuz it's chaos. And also like if [92:50] you're trying to hit like a guy right [92:52] here and then his head moves and then [92:54] you hit the back of the head, whose [92:56] fault is that? Is that your fault that [92:58] you're supposed to pull back? You're in [92:59] the middle of a shot. It's very [93:01] difficult to stop. [93:02] >> Yeah, [93:02] >> it's hard to say. But when you look at [93:04] his performance in that fight against [93:06] Alec Praer, it was [ __ ] [93:08] extraordinary, man. He's So, [93:10] >> we were It was a group chat I have with [93:12] a few friends of mine, uh, Dean Thomas [93:14] and Matt Sarah and John Roll. We do a [93:16] podcast together and we were just [93:18] talking about it how basketball [93:20] >> is a phenomenal base for some of these [93:23] guys because Sirill Gan he I'm gonna [93:25] show you I'll send you this video. I'll [93:27] I'll send it to Jamie. Sir Gan can [93:30] [ __ ] move, man. And some of the [93:32] >> he's light light feeted as well. [93:34] >> And he's 250 lbs. Yeah. But it's the way [93:37] he moves is so extraordinary. And I [93:39] think some of that is because of [93:41] basketball because [93:43] >> Yeah. Well, no, it's not that one. [93:44] >> This is brand new. This is a brand new [93:46] video. He's playing against the NBA [93:47] center here. [93:48] >> Oh, man. There there's multiple videos [93:50] of it then because he's I mean, he's [93:54] pretty sick. [93:54] >> Yeah. But [93:55] >> but that's one of them. [93:56] >> I was I was with him. Uh we did a little [93:59] moving moving around together uh on Den [94:02] of Thieves uh too. [94:04] >> Oh, okay. [94:04] >> He was he was in there. We were in the [94:06] scene together. [94:07] >> So that was fun. [94:08] >> It's just having a guy. [94:09] >> He's such a nice guy. He's like so [94:11] light. So light. [94:12] >> He moves around so like and so hard to [94:15] hit, man. It doesn't He's never been in [94:17] trouble in the fight. I mean, he got [94:18] finished by Jon Jones, but that was a [94:20] submission. And Francis Enano just beat [94:22] him by grappling, [94:23] >> but he's never been like rocked or [94:26] staggered. He hardly gets No, because [94:28] >> because his movement is so [94:29] extraordinary, [94:30] >> especially for a for a big guy. But [94:31] that's why I believe but Tom has that as [94:34] well. [94:34] >> Yes, [94:35] >> he has that move. He is like [94:36] >> Well, his blitz is extraordinary. His [94:38] his ability to cover distance is insane. [94:40] And he's got one punch knockout power [94:42] against [94:42] >> He's so explosive. Like boom, he can [94:45] that that's [94:46] >> I believe he can he can be a good boxer, [94:48] >> but he can also be a good kickboxer and [94:50] he's a good MMA fighter. He's so all [94:53] around because when he he comes to kick [94:55] when he came to kickbox wow [94:58] >> I just so I just hate that fans reacted [95:01] the way they reacted and it's the casual [95:03] ones it's the [ __ ] you know I for [95:06] me I was like god you got to give the [95:08] guy some grace he got his eye poked out [95:10] I mean he he literally was knuckled deep [95:13] in his eyes to for for him to for anyone [95:17] to think that he should be fighting with [95:20] one eye like that who cares keep [95:22] fighting. That's [95:23] >> insane. He got fouled. It's not because [95:26] of a punch. It's not because of he got [95:28] kicked or an elbow. It's a foul. [95:30] >> And so, no, the fight should have been [95:33] stopped the way it was. And that's that [95:36] everybody should understand that it's [95:37] not his fault. It was his opponent's [95:39] fault. [95:39] >> But how he got to this was like because [95:41] of the whole deal he has, like how much [95:44] sense does it make for me to to get into [95:47] the UFC? Because Conor got like a great [95:50] deal now. [95:52] uh for his last fight. [95:53] >> No, for you boxing makes the most sense, [95:55] especially at this point in your life [95:57] financially. And you know, for for Tom, [96:00] I mean, he look, he has a potential [96:02] career in boxing as well. And now that [96:04] Eddie Hearn is uh managing him, which is [96:07] very exciting because uh you know, match [96:09] room being behind him, he's going to [96:11] have a a gigantic hype machine, gigantic [96:13] promotion. Like I think it's huge and [96:16] that they're at odds with the UFC. Like [96:18] for me, I care about the fighters making [96:20] the most money possible. [96:22] >> Exactly. [96:22] >> And that's how he's going to make the [96:23] most money possible. [96:24] >> Yeah. But like you said, that's what I [96:27] believe like all the fighters deserve. [96:28] The fighters that [96:30] >> that bring in the viewers that are [96:32] exciting. [96:34] >> Yeah. They should earn a little bit [96:36] more, right? That is [96:38] >> everything should be in balance. [96:39] >> 100%. And that that's um I mean this is [96:42] where uh Turkey Alashik has really [96:45] ramped up the game, really raised the [96:48] bar. Yeah. Because the he's getting guys [96:50] to fight that didn't want to fight each [96:52] other. [96:52] >> No. Exactly. [96:52] >> And he's like, "How about this amount?" [96:55] >> Exactly. Okay. [96:57] >> Okay. There we go. But then but that's [96:59] how we we got the biggest fight. [97:01] But next to that with him giving me the [97:05] opportunity as well, what he does is he [97:09] thinks outside [snorts] of the box. And [97:12] that's what I love so much about what [97:14] what what he does because [97:16] >> we had the also the the Francis Neanu [97:18] Tyson Fury fight, [97:19] >> right? [97:20] >> And that was also like [97:22] >> crazy, right? [97:23] >> I don't know about that. [97:24] >> Zero professional boxing matches for [97:27] Francis. [97:27] >> Exactly. So that and that decision was [97:30] also a little bit controversial [97:32] controversial. I don't know. So but [97:35] that's why I like what he does. He [97:38] thinks outside of the box like hey no I [97:41] like this idea. [97:42] >> Yeah let's just try Crawford versus [97:44] Canelo Alvarez. That's way outside the [97:46] box. Yeah. You got a guy moving up two [97:48] weight classes [97:50] >> to fight an all-time great. I mean it [97:52] was and a lot of people thought Canelo's [97:53] too big. Canel's too big. [97:55] >> Wow. [97:55] >> That was an amazing fight. Oh my god, [97:57] Terrence Crawford is one of the greatest [98:00] of all time. [98:01] >> He is so smooth. It's so good. When he [98:04] was just p rip and doing that to to [98:09] >> Wow. [98:10] >> Oh my goodness. It was amazing to watch [98:12] to watch a guy that's that skillful and [98:15] have those skills and, you know, move up [98:18] multiple weight classes. [98:19] >> Yeah. Incredible. [98:20] >> And pull it off against a guy like [98:21] Canelo. And again, [98:23] >> everybody said like, "Oh, he's not going [98:24] to get he's not going to have a shot [98:25] because Canelo is going to be too big. [98:27] As soon as he as he hit him, he's going [98:28] to get rocked." And he's like, "No, I [98:30] think uh no, that was that was [98:32] incredible." And they were they were all [98:33] at the fight experiments, by the way. [98:35] >> Yeah, that was a pretty [98:37] >> Well, it's also Terrence is very smart [98:39] and Terrence prepared for that fight for [98:41] like a year and put on some weight, but [98:44] not too much. you know, he did a lot of [98:46] weight lifting, but just enough, [98:48] >> but just also he was healthier because [98:50] he didn't have to cut so much weight. [98:52] No, that's a thing to take into [98:54] consideration. You you got a guy who's [98:55] cutting all that weight to make all the [98:58] different weight classes that he was [98:59] championing all the way up to 154 and [99:01] then all a sudden he doesn't have to cut [99:02] weight. Well, guess what? He's probably [99:04] walking around 176, 177 anyway. [99:07] >> Yeah. So, [99:08] >> so it was probably a better performance [99:10] for him like physically. He probably [99:12] felt much better. [99:13] >> Yeah. But he's also used to faster guys [99:15] and he's so light on his feet at [99:17] >> 100%. 100%. That's so exciting. So [99:19] that's what Yeah. What he does, he he [99:22] makes the fights that [99:25] otherwise would have been made, [99:27] >> right? [99:28] >> So, and I think uh I respect him for [99:31] that so much and I'm thankful for that [99:33] as well. So, let's see uh what he's [99:36] going to pull out of the head this time [99:37] for me. [99:38] >> [laughter] [99:39] >> Well, I mean, for sure now people are [99:41] going to be excited about you fighting [99:43] again. And uh it's even more marketable [99:47] by far than the first fight was. [99:50] >> I just hope it's a rematch. I really do [99:51] because I think that's the just fight to [99:54] have. That's the correct fight to have, [99:56] a rematch. When a fight is that close [99:58] and ends that controversially and then [100:00] the judging is the scoring is that bad, [100:03] you the the right thing to do is to have [100:06] a rematch. [100:06] >> Yeah. And then in a different, like I [100:09] said, in a different environment, in [100:10] different situation that [100:12] >> Vegas or Madison Square Garden. [100:15] >> I got to be honest, Joe, they're both [100:18] still on the bucket list. [100:20] >> I fought in New York, but it was like in [100:22] I don't know in a ballroom something. I [100:24] don't I can't even remember what it was, [100:26] but it's I think 2012 or something. So, [100:31] uh yeah, Madison Square Garden and Vegas [100:33] are still on the on the bucket list. [100:34] Look, Vegas is great, but Madison Square [100:36] Garden is iconic. There's something [100:39] about being in that building. Every time [100:41] we have fights, we do a UFC in that [100:42] building. It's like, wow, we're in the [100:44] garden. Like that. That is a special [100:46] place to be. [100:47] >> There's so many things that happen [100:48] there. [100:51] >> Basketball, whatever. Yeah. [100:53] >> So many concerts, so many fights, so [100:55] many everything. It's just And it's also [100:57] in New York City. And as much as New [101:00] York City is crazy and it's like it's [101:02] beep beep and honk honk and [ __ ] you and [101:04] [laughter] it's still New York [101:07] [ __ ] city and to have a great [101:10] world championship fight in New York [101:12] City is something special. There's [101:14] something you feel different when they [101:15] say live from Madison Square Garden. [101:18] You're like oh [ __ ] the [laughter] [101:21] >> you know it's when you when you're in [101:23] the room when we have fights there being [101:25] in the room feels different. [101:26] >> Yeah 100%. But that that's also one of [101:29] the things that that he did a fight on [101:33] time square. [101:34] >> I know [101:34] >> who who thinks of that like [101:37] >> and the thing is for him I I believe [101:39] that whenever you when he when you hear [101:42] something and you say nah that's not [101:44] possible. [101:45] >> I think that's the right trigger he [101:47] that's the exactly the trigger he needs [101:49] like I'll make it possible. I'll make it [101:51] happen. That's the same with the [101:52] pyramids. And then with the uh with the [101:56] time square it's like nah don't think [101:57] that's going to happen. [101:58] >> Well they have a bottomless bank [102:00] account. Yeah. [laughter] [102:02] >> That's the things like they can just [102:04] they make things possible. [102:05] >> They they just throw so much money at [102:07] guys like and that is exciting. I mean [102:10] that's something that boxing has needed [102:12] because it's look it took so long to get [102:15] Floyd Mayweather to fight Manny [102:16] Pacquiao, right? That was a gigantic [102:18] fight. It took forever and arguably [102:20] Manny was past his prime when they wound [102:23] up actually fighting again which pissed [102:25] a lot of people off. [102:26] >> If they had been around back then if [102:29] Turkey Alles had been around back then [102:31] they and Riad season has been around had [102:33] been around back then they probably [102:34] would have made that happen when they're [102:35] in their prime [102:36] >> 100%. [102:37] >> That's what that's what boxing needs. [102:39] That's what MMA needs. That's what [102:41] everybody needs. The UFC does that in [102:43] MMA. They kind of force guys to fight. [102:45] >> You you can't get away from it. No, only [102:48] the payday is different. But [102:49] >> yes, but you know, at the highest [102:52] levels, guys like Connor, they're making [102:53] similar money. But it's just that that [102:55] needs to change in terms of it has to be [102:57] like it has to be enticing enough that [103:00] you're going to get the best athletes [103:01] that realize like, hey, I don't have to [103:03] go into basketball. I don't have to go [103:05] what I really like is fighting. Yeah. [103:07] >> Like and the and there's enough money in [103:09] fighting now. [103:10] >> Yeah. 100%. [103:11] >> Like everything else. But that's the [103:12] problem. Like we just talked about we [103:14] started off with with the k the whole [103:16] kickboxing. There's mo no money to be [103:18] made, [103:19] >> right? That is the problem. [103:20] >> So, well, I mean, how many can figure [103:23] that out because, you know, they're [103:25] they're dedicated to entering into the [103:26] MMA space now and they just merged with [103:28] the PFL. Yeah. [103:29] >> Which I think is very exciting cuz I [103:31] think competition is good. [103:33] >> Competition is great. And the more [103:35] competition the better and definitely [103:37] better for the fighters to have options [103:40] >> 100%. And they've got guys over there in [103:42] the PFL now that are [ __ ] world [103:45] class, man. They've got some world class [103:48] fighters. [103:48] >> Yeah. [103:49] >> So, it's exciting. It's exciting to have [103:51] it. Just they just need to get bigger in [103:52] terms of the public's recognition. [103:54] >> Exactly. [103:55] >> So, right now, everybody thinks of UFC [103:57] being MMA, UFC, and it's like PFL for [103:59] the average casual is like, what? Who's [104:01] that? [104:02] >> Yeah. Exactly. What do they do? [104:03] >> Right. [104:04] >> Yeah. But I think to be honest, Joe, if [104:06] we look at 10 years ago, combat sports [104:10] is at its all-time high. [104:13] Boxing, MMA, kickboxing, everything is [104:15] like [104:16] >> going through the roof. So, I think [104:18] everything is bigger now. [104:19] >> I think we're in a we're in a very [104:20] blessed [104:22] >> position. [104:22] >> Well, 20 years ago, nobody even knew [104:24] what MMA was. 21 years ago was the first [104:27] Ultimate Fighter, season 1, 2005. [104:30] >> And that was really when MMA kind of [104:32] made it onto the map in terms of the [104:33] general public understanding of it [104:35] >> from the Ultimate Fighter and that [104:37] Stefan Bonner Forest Griffin fight. [104:39] Yeah, [104:39] >> but you could see a world where [104:42] kickboxing could enter into that, you [104:44] know, 10 years from now be in the same a [104:46] similar category. And I think it should [104:48] be. I really do. [104:49] >> And it's just because of the the modern [104:52] day world, because of social media and [104:55] so many different people coming into the [104:59] sport and people can say and have an [105:01] opinion about it, but for example with [105:03] with with Jake Paul and etc. and all the [105:06] influencers, but they're bringing a lot [105:09] of new eyes to the combat sport, to [105:12] boxing, to [105:12] >> a lot of new eyes. So, I think [105:14] >> could you could you imagine if an [105:16] organization got behind a guy like [105:19] Ramone Deckers and showed him to the [105:22] American public when he was in his [105:23] prime? People would be like, "Holy [105:26] [laughter] [105:26] [ __ ] who is this guy? [105:29] >> This [ __ ] monster. This animal." [105:32] >> Yeah. [105:33] >> This technical animal, you know? Yeah, [105:35] >> like that's the thing. That's the thing [105:37] about where you come from, too. Like for [105:40] people that don't know, kickboxing in [105:42] Holland, that is the epicenter of world [105:45] championship kickboxing. [105:46] >> I mean, Rob Cayman, Ernesto Hughes, you [105:51] I mean, so Peter, oh my god, you could [105:54] go on and on and on and on and on. So [105:56] many of the greatest kickboxers, of [105:58] course, Raone Deckers, but so many of [106:00] the greatest kickboxers of all time came [106:02] from Holland. [106:03] >> 100%. You know, I mean, we mentioned [106:06] Bhari. I mean, so many of these great [106:09] Melvin Manhof, so many of these great [106:11] guys [106:11] >> 100% [106:12] >> came out of Holland. Yeah. [106:13] >> It's kind of nuts if you really think [106:15] about it. [106:16] >> Yeah. Now, we're such a small country, [106:18] but and everybody exchanges their [106:24] intelligence with each other. And I [106:25] believe that because we're such a small [106:27] country, that's what increases the level [106:30] so much. Everybody trains also with each [106:32] other. go there, we go sparring with [106:34] them, we go sparring with them, we go [106:35] sparring with them, and then [106:38] you learn this from that guy, you learn [106:40] that from that guy. And if you do that, [106:41] for example, in in the US, you want to [106:43] train with somebody out new from New [106:45] York, you got to fly all the way there. [106:47] You're not going to stay there too long. [106:48] I think it just takes too much time. And [106:51] because in our country, we can just [106:53] drive anywhere. And it's but it's also [106:56] one of the reasons why pay-per-view [106:58] never worked there [106:59] >> because if they if they wanted to to to [107:02] visit uh an event just drive there like [107:05] I'm not going to stay home and pay for [107:07] it. That doesn't make any sense. I'll [107:09] just drive there and just go watch it [107:10] live. [107:11] >> Well, that's also why the crowds are so [107:12] huge because you guys got massive crowds [107:14] for some of those kickboxing [107:16] >> arenas and it Yeah. [107:17] >> People don't know in America. They don't [107:19] know how big kickboxing is in Holland. [107:22] in the Netherlands. It's gigantic. [107:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. No, it's like I think number [107:27] two sport. [107:28] >> That's crazy. [107:29] >> Soccer. [107:29] >> Isn't that funny? [107:30] >> Yeah. Yeah. [107:32] >> It's kind of crazy if you think about [107:33] it. It's such a small How many people [107:35] even live in Holland? [107:38] >> 60 70 million. [laughter] [107:41] >> Yeah. [107:42] >> That's nuts. It's a small country with [107:45] the greatest kickboxers of all time. [107:47] It's like It's an anomaly. It's very [107:48] weird. [107:49] >> Yeah. [107:50] >> Very weird how it happened. [107:51] >> Yeah. And also like I think this now for [107:54] the last I think after like for the last [107:57] 10 years it's [108:00] we've been so good in kickboxing for the [108:02] last 25 years or even longer. [108:06] But now since the last 10 years it's [108:09] been recognized as well for the public. [108:13] You always been [clears throat] good at [108:14] it but it's always been like I don't [108:16] know a little bit shady or whatever. And [108:18] now since the last 10 years since me and [108:21] B like put it on the map just exploded [108:26] and everybody just yeah went behind it [108:29] like wow oh this is cool. This is cool [108:31] to watch. We're good at this. We're [108:33] we're we we're the best in the world at [108:35] this sport. Are there gyms all over the [108:38] place in Holland? [108:39] >> It's inc it's it was crazy. At a certain [108:41] point he went it was so crazy that every [108:44] random guy could become a kickboxing [108:46] teacher. So now because it's it beca [108:50] because it became so big and so public [108:53] they started to do it like okay you got [108:55] you got to get like an uh like a diploma [108:59] and a certificate to become a kickboxing [109:01] trainer. You cannot just randomly say [109:02] like hey I'm a kickboxing trainer start [109:04] kickboxing start teaching people. But at [109:06] a certain point that was that was the [109:08] case. [109:08] >> Wow. [109:09] >> Yeah it was crazy. But [109:11] >> so what happened? How did Holland become [109:13] so big in kickboxing? I think they Yeah. [109:17] with Rammon Deckers and everything, they [109:19] went to uh Yeah. to Thailand and just [109:23] like [109:25] sucked all the information out of that [109:27] and we had Yeah. fighters, trainers [109:29] going there and they took like [109:33] the Muay Thai of it and they took that [109:36] to the to the Netherlands and then like [109:38] exchange like I said because the country [109:40] is so small, they exchange everything [109:42] with each other. like this guy learned [109:44] that, that guy learned that, and if you [109:45] exchange that with with each other, you [109:47] just get better and you get smarter. But [109:49] it also has to be something about the [109:51] culture, the mentality of the Yeah, [109:54] >> we we're pretty big. Pretty big people. [109:57] >> But Rob, I mean, excuse me, Ramon [109:59] Deckers was not big. [110:00] >> No, he was not big. He was not big, [110:01] >> which was one of the most extraordinary [110:03] parts of his career was that he was [110:05] competing against ties at their but in [110:08] Muay Thai. Yes. [110:09] >> Wow. [110:10] >> That was that was insane. with elbows [110:12] and it was brutal. [110:14] >> But his boxing too was a giant factor. [110:17] >> So explosive. [110:18] >> So explosive. And his style was so [110:21] aggressive. [110:22] >> Like he was like going he was feral. He [110:25] was just like [110:26] >> people who haven't seen please go to [110:28] YouTube and watch Ramon Decker's [110:30] highlights. [110:31] >> Yeah. [110:32] >> Yeah. It is. [110:33] >> Oh my god. Some of the highlights of his [110:35] his knockout highlights. Like holy [ __ ] [110:38] man. [laughter] [110:39] >> It's incredible. Everything was designed [110:41] to kill you. Yeah. Every shot, every leg [110:44] kick, every liver shot, every punch to [110:47] the face, everything was just full speed [110:49] ahead, [110:50] >> power explosion, [110:51] >> smash. His ankle was so [ __ ] up that [110:55] his doctor told him like, you can't keep [110:57] kicking with that thing. Like, you're [110:59] going to like lose your ankle. [ __ ] [111:01] taped it up. Still blasting people. was [111:03] like a kid and I was watching these [111:05] these fights like oh my god it was and [111:10] then with him being so explosive and [111:12] then kicking on a on a block on a knee [111:15] or on an elbow he pop [111:18] >> just right into [111:19] >> just like oh it's just bone on bone oh [111:22] just by looking at it just hurts [111:25] >> just destroyed his ankle because of that [111:27] I mean in his later fights later in his [111:29] years like when he fought um Dwayne [111:30] Lewig I mean he had to have his ankle [111:32] taped all over the [ __ ] place. Big [111:35] thing was like hanging on by a thread. [111:37] >> But that's that's what what we were [111:39] talking about like earlier. It's like we [111:42] as as fighters putting our health on the [111:46] line for entertainment. [111:50] >> I mean forever. He died young. [111:51] >> Yeah, he died young. But okay, that that [111:55] happens. You do you do that because you [111:56] love the sport. But then yeah, [111:58] everything needs to be transparent and [112:01] it needs to be safe and with the judging [112:03] and yeah, it needs to be it needs to be [112:05] in moneywise and with the judging and [112:08] everything just needs to be [112:10] >> Yeah. needs to be right because what we [112:12] do is out of this world. [112:14] >> Yes. [112:15] >> And it's it's not just kickboxing, it's [112:17] boxing, it's MMA, that's what all [112:19] >> that's the reason why it's so exciting. [112:22] It's part of the reason why it's so [112:24] exciting is we know how dangerous it is. [112:25] >> Exactly. But and that's why I feel like [112:28] it has to be it has to be fair and it [112:30] needs to be compensated the right way. [112:33] >> Yeah. [112:34] >> So everybody's like, "Oh, he's making so [112:35] much money." Okay. But he can only he [112:38] can't do that till he's 65 or whatever. [112:40] [laughter] So [112:41] >> yeah. [112:42] >> Yeah. There's such a small window, which [112:44] is one of the things that's so [112:45] extraordinary about your career that [112:47] you've managed to stay on top for so [112:48] long because generally when we look at [112:52] world class fighters, there's a a rule [112:55] that a lot of uh experts supposedly have [112:59] said is that it's about nine years. [113:01] Yeah. You can only really compete at in [113:04] your prime for nine years. You've shown [113:07] yourself to be an exception to that rule [113:09] because you've been competing in your [113:11] prime for a lot longer than that. [113:12] >> Yeah. 12. [113:13] >> Yeah. And you you're not dropping off at [113:16] all. And you weren't dropping off, you [113:17] were still dominant in kickboxing when [113:19] you decided to step away. [113:20] >> Yeah. [113:21] >> So, it's like even though you are an [113:23] outlier and that you've been able to [113:25] extend it longer than anybody, it's [113:27] still there's a window. You're not going [113:28] to be able to do this when you're 50. [113:30] No. [113:30] >> You know, you're not going to be able to [113:31] do this when you're 60. It's like you [113:32] have a small window where you can [113:34] compete and it's the people are paying [113:37] to see you. They're not paying to see [113:39] the promoter. They're not paying to see [113:41] anything else. They're not paying to [113:43] hear the commentators. They're paying to [113:45] see the fighters perform at the very [113:47] highest level of the most exciting sport [113:50] on earth. [113:51] >> Yeah. But that's why I'm saying this [113:53] because it's it's not as much for me [113:56] anymore because I'm I'm I'm close to [113:59] being finished, right? You know, like [114:01] like we we said, I'm in the winner of my [114:03] career, but it's for the next [114:04] generation. [114:06] >> The next generation should be excited to [114:09] to get into combat sports and feel like, [114:12] hey, I want to do this because I can, [114:14] and it is fair, it is transparent, and [114:18] I'm fighting, but I can make a very good [114:20] living out of this, and I could like [114:23] build like generational wealth with it. [114:26] Well, that's what's really good about [114:27] like this MVP PFL merger and having a [114:31] bunch of hype on that. Like the more [114:33] competition, the better. The more it's [114:35] the more eyes on the sport, the more [114:37] people watch the sport, the more money [114:39] will be in the sport [114:40] >> and then the more the fighters will have [114:42] options for who to fight for. [114:43] >> Yeah. Yeah. And I think that's the best [114:45] thing like you just said, like [114:47] >> options. [114:48] >> Yeah. No, it's phenomenal. [114:49] >> If you have options, that's the best [114:50] thing ever, right? [114:51] >> Yeah. [114:52] >> Like, hey, we got this, we got that. And [114:54] it's not that you got to like play them [114:57] out against each other, but still it it [115:00] is a good thing because if you just have [115:01] one option, it's like, hey, take it or [115:03] leave it. Exactly. [115:04] >> This is what it is. And if you get like, [115:06] ah, the other guy is saying this, so let [115:07] me go there. [115:08] >> Reality is we could use one more, you [115:10] know, not just MVP, but also another. I [115:13] wish one was doing better, you know, if [115:15] one was doing better and they were a [115:16] viable option as well, because I know [115:18] some guys did go over there with great [115:20] success, like Mighty Mouse went over [115:21] there with great success. uh we need [115:23] more we need more options for fighters [115:25] and you know it's it's unusual in that [115:29] in um boxing for instance what's really [115:32] important is the name of the fighters [115:34] >> that's what's important you know if uh [115:36] Dimmitri Bivval is fighting it's it's [115:38] people are going to see they don't give [115:39] a [ __ ] who the promoter is they want to [115:41] see Bivval fight you know if it's Arthur [115:43] better be they want to see him fight [115:44] that's all that's all anybody gives a [115:46] [ __ ] about in MMA it's UFC [115:49] >> and the only the exception to that was [115:51] of course this last MVP card where Ronda [115:53] Rousey fought. So, everybody's like, "Oh [115:55] my god, she's a legend. She's fighting [115:57] and that and Francis Enana was on the [115:58] card." So, a lot of eyeballs got on [116:01] that. So, we need more of that [116:02] >> and more of that is good for everybody. [116:04] >> Like build like like we just talked [116:07] about build stories around those people. [116:09] >> Yes. [116:10] >> Who who are those people next to being [116:12] fighters? Okay. They're incredibly [116:15] amazing at what they do in the in the [116:18] ring or in the octagon or whatever. [116:20] Okay. But who is the person behind [116:22] >> behind? Okay. Who? Oh, he's a father. [116:24] Oh, really? He has two. I never knew. [116:26] >> I used to play chess. [116:28] >> Yeah, exactly. So, that gives that gives [116:31] them so much more depth. And I also [116:34] believe that that makes them more human. [116:37] >> Yes, for sure. Seeing their family, [116:39] seeing them interact with their kids. [116:40] >> Everybody gets like closer to, oh wow, [116:44] >> this guy could be my neighbor. [116:46] >> Right. Right. Because you also ask kids, [116:48] oh, he brings his kids to school and [116:50] whatever. [116:50] >> You're invested in him. Like you like [116:52] him, you want him to win. [116:53] >> 100%. [116:54] >> Yeah. I mean, that's a big part of it [116:55] and that's something that they need to [116:56] do and that I think you're right about [116:58] glory. They really never did that. That [117:00] was not really a part of the glory [117:01] promotion. [117:02] >> No, they were just like, "Put up fights. [117:04] Put the best versus the best." And this [117:06] >> Listen, for me, I don't care. It was [117:08] [ __ ] great. [laughter] I love it. I'm [117:10] a giant Glory fan, man. Every time [117:11] there's a card, I can't wait. [117:13] >> I watch it and people like, "What are [117:14] you watching?" I'm like, "Glory's on." [117:16] They're like, "What the [ __ ] is glory?" [117:18] >> Never heard. Yeah, I never heard about [117:19] that. [laughter] [117:20] >> It's like even my friends in in MMA [117:22] don't don't understand. [117:24] >> No. [117:24] >> While the real the people that the [117:26] trainers and everybody, they a lot of [117:28] times they get like the glory fighters [117:30] in to to prepare their fighters to to [117:33] get into UFC. [117:34] >> Yeah. [117:35] >> Or for big fights or whatever because [117:36] like, hey, they know that their their [117:38] standup is, you know, level. Yeah. [117:40] >> Elite. I mean, and like I said, 1 FC has [117:43] a lot of elite fighters. They're re [117:45] they're they especially at the [117:46] lighterweight classes there's a lot of [117:48] really Jonathan Hagerty he just beat [117:50] Yukio Yoza who's another guy this guy [117:53] from Japan is a Kyokushin guy who [ __ ] [117:54] up people's legs he's really good and [117:57] then there's this guy from Dagistan who [117:59] might be the best striker alive [118:01] >> uh Azadullah Iman Gazalev [118:04] >> this dude he's really tall and he fights [118:06] at 135 pounds and he's [ __ ] nasty man [118:10] >> he's so technical undefeated and he's [118:12] from Dagistan like there's so many [118:14] savages that are coming out of Dagistan. [118:16] Just straight up killers, man. [118:19] >> There's a dude who just won in the PFL, [118:21] Magomeov, who just won in the PFL this [118:23] past weekend. Another guy, he fights [118:24] like uh Iman Gazalv. Real similar both [118:27] guys from Dagistan. Similar styles, man. [118:30] >> I love it. [118:30] >> This question mark kicks and elite [118:33] stabbing front kicks and just real slick [118:36] stand up, [118:37] >> you know. But in um 1FC FC they're [118:39] having these guys fighting and you know [118:42] they're re it's really big in Asia but [118:43] it just has not caught on in America. [118:45] >> No. And I I think that's also where [118:47] where the problem is I think with them [118:50] but also with uh with glory they're just [118:53] like pouring in money. Pouring in money [118:55] and a certain moment it's like I also [118:58] understand like the one that's investing [119:00] into like how much money am I going to [119:02] need to pour in this [119:03] >> before it's going to do something. You [119:05] know, they asked me to be they they [119:07] asked me to be a part of that at one [119:08] point in time. They wanted me to be like [119:10] the Dana White of glory. I'm like, I [119:11] don't have that kind of time. [laughter] [119:13] I don't have that kind of time. [119:15] >> Exactly. Because if you were going to [119:16] say, I don't have that type of money, [119:18] I'm going to look at you like come on. [119:19] [laughter] [119:20] >> It's the time. It's It would be the [119:21] time. [119:22] >> You're so busy. You're so [119:23] >> You would have I know how hard Dana [119:25] works. Dana works all day, every day. [119:28] That guy is always doing something. He's [119:30] always got deals going. He's always on [119:32] the phone. is always meetings and the [119:33] headaches and the cancelled fights and [119:35] this and that and trying to make things [119:36] happen and promotions and press [119:38] conferences and it's like [119:39] >> yeah they want to change [119:41] >> I would never halfass something like [119:43] that you can't do that to be a promoter [119:45] is a lot that is a full-time job you got [119:48] to go [119:49] >> you know and you know Dana set the bar [119:51] very very high and he's the best ever [119:54] think he's I think he's the greatest [119:55] promoter of all time and to me for me to [119:57] do that like I couldn't there's no way [119:59] >> no that's why it's so cool that that he [120:01] jumps into boxing now. [120:03] >> Yeah. [120:03] >> And he's going to give that [120:05] >> Yeah. Very exciting. [120:06] >> Try and Yeah. [120:07] >> Well, I mean, there's people who are, [120:09] you know, always nervous when a new guy [120:11] steps into a sport, but I I think it's [120:13] only better [120:13] >> with his reputation. [120:15] >> Yeah. [laughter] It's only Yeah. with [120:16] money with uh, you know, like and the [120:19] amount of money they're throwing at the [120:20] boxers. The MMA guys are like, "Hey, [120:22] what are you doing? [120:22] >> What the [ __ ] Like, where's that money [120:24] for us?" But [120:25] >> they still need to build up. [120:27] >> It's all good for everybody. The more [120:28] money there is in the sport, the more [120:30] attention, the more excitement, it's [120:32] better for everybody. [120:33] >> How cool would that be if there would be [120:35] a world where MMA fighters, UFC fighters [120:40] would also be able to get into Zufa and [120:44] like, hey, you're you're a good boxer. [120:46] We see like maybe there's something [120:48] >> it's possible that they would do that, [120:49] but right now they're not concentrating [120:50] on that. They're just concentrating. [120:51] they first need to [120:53] >> position themselves as but like for the [120:55] future [120:56] >> it would be but then if you got a big [120:58] star like say if you take a guy like Max [120:59] Holloway or someone like that and he [121:01] decides he wants to box for a while that [121:02] means he's not going to be able to fight [121:03] in MMA fight so that would like cut off [121:06] their own access to him as an MMA [121:09] fighter and he's a huge star. [121:11] >> Yeah, but maybe then he attracts [121:13] different different eyeballs too. Yeah, [121:14] but to do it right, you got to do it [121:16] like kind of like when Connor did it [121:18] with Floyd. He took a whole year off and [121:20] he was just boxing. I mean, he really [121:22] really concentrated on that. [121:24] >> You can't get like go back into MMA [121:26] again because then [121:27] >> it kind of messed him up. It kind of [121:28] messed him up going back in MMA again. [121:30] He didn't have the same momentum. It [121:32] wasn't the same amount of training. [121:34] Training lost with grappling and [121:37] especially with kickboxing, you know, [121:39] like you're only doing boxing. that [121:42] training lost like you have to [121:43] recalibrate your whole break takes [121:45] forever. [121:46] >> Yeah. [121:46] >> I was I was just it was just excitement. [121:48] It was just my excitement. Put it out [121:50] there. But [121:50] >> listen, for some guys it might be a good [121:52] option, you know, and for some guys [121:54] especially after knee injuries. Yeah. [121:56] >> You know, where boxing is not as hard on [121:58] the knees, you know. You could say that [122:00] especially when when it comes to [122:01] grappling and leg kicks, especially like [122:04] those guys that throw those side kicks [122:05] to the knee. [122:07] >> Oh my god. [122:08] >> Those calf kicks. [122:09] >> Wow. [122:09] >> I know. Crazy. Oh my god. [122:11] >> Crazy. [122:12] >> Oh, it's But they also after that uh [122:15] after we they saw that within uh UFC [122:18] within MMA in kickboxing, they also [122:20] start trying doing that. [122:21] >> Isn't it nuts that it took forever for [122:23] the calf kick to be a potent weapon like [122:25] that? [122:25] >> But it's so dangerous. It's It's also [122:27] dangerous to because if you if you hit [122:30] the shin, it's like, oh, it's the last [122:32] kick you throw. Yeah. [122:33] >> But if you do it right [122:34] >> Yeah. If you do it right, like Alex [122:36] Pereira destroys people's legs. Destroys [122:39] them. I don't even know how how it looks [122:41] like he he he kicks it with the foot [122:43] with the side of the It's not even [122:46] really like a low kick or what. [122:47] >> It's weird. He does it weird. And he [122:49] does it with no tell. [122:50] >> No tell. No switching of the hips at [122:52] all. Just throws the leg out there and [122:54] it only takes a couple. [122:55] >> Yeah. [122:56] >> It takes a couple and then your legs [122:57] [ __ ] And then you see guys switch his [122:58] dances moving funny. [123:00] >> Then it's over. [123:01] >> That kid that I was talking about in [123:03] Japan, Yukiza, he's phenomenal at that [123:06] man. His calf kicks are insane. He's [123:08] just in every exchange, every exchange [123:10] he's kicking the calves inside and [123:12] outside a kilushian guy. So it's it's [123:14] just all just hard style inside outside [123:18] inside outside. [123:18] >> What is what is your opinion on that? [123:20] Because me and my trainer, we were [123:22] debating the the the calf kick because [123:26] next to it being super effective, it's [123:29] also a long long-term injury when you [123:32] get put out by calf kicks. [123:35] >> Yeah. Because that injury stays there [123:37] for quite a while. [123:38] >> Oh yeah. It's brutal. It's brutal. [123:40] >> So do you do you think like it's a thing [123:42] that should stare at you? [123:44] >> 100%. It's re it's effective. I mean [123:46] it's really [laughter] [123:47] >> Listen, if you can if you can knee bar a [123:50] guy, you could heel hook a guy, you can [123:52] rip his knee apart. [123:53] >> You've got to be able to calf kick. [123:54] Yeah. [123:55] >> You know this it's it's a weapon to take [123:57] away that weapon when we know how [123:58] effective it is. [124:00] >> You got guys who were al always used to [124:03] standing heavy on that front leg. Now [124:05] all of a sudden they can't do that [124:06] anymore. [124:07] >> Like Connor, perfect example in the [124:09] window between Connor taking time off [124:13] fighting Floyd Mayweather getting [124:15] fighting Kabib and then getting back [124:16] into MMA. Then the calf kick came along. [124:18] He never fought with there was no calf [124:21] kicks before. Dustin Pouier destroyed [124:23] his leg [124:24] >> in that first round. By the time the [124:25] second round was rolling around in their [124:27] second fight, he was already wobbling on [124:29] that front leg. [124:30] >> Yeah. [124:30] >> Crazy. Yeah. [124:31] >> Crazy that it took so long for that one [124:33] technique. Yeah. Yeah. It's just the [124:36] thing you you see like, hey, that's [124:38] effective. And everybody started doing [124:40] it. [124:40] >> But again, dangerous. Like you said, you [124:41] go I mean, this is how Chris Weidman [124:44] broke his leg. Yeah. [124:45] >> You know, he threw a really hard low [124:46] kick and he caught the knee. He caught [124:49] the shin right below the knee and [124:50] snapped his leg in half. [124:52] >> If it gets checked and you and you've [124:54] hit it the wrong way, especially you hit [124:56] the low part of yours and the high part [124:58] of his where it's thick and dense. [125:01] >> Yeah. That's the hardest part. [125:02] >> Yeah. But it's so effective. It has to [125:05] stay. [laughter] [125:06] >> The thing that bothers me more than [125:08] >> Okay, I'm happy. I'm happy. I like leave [125:10] >> the sidekicks to the knee bother me [125:12] more. [125:13] >> That's Yeah. [125:14] >> Did you ever see Khalil Roundtree and [125:15] Modestus Basquez? You ever see that? Oh, [125:18] >> it's the worst one of all time. [125:20] >> You see the leg like [125:21] >> it turned sideways. He threw a sidekick, [125:24] caught him on the front leg and just [125:25] turned his whole leg sideways and he [125:27] screamed and the fight was over. [125:28] >> Rip everything apart. [125:29] >> Oh yeah. He had surgery. had to have [125:31] surgery after the fight. His leg was [125:33] destroyed. Yeah. [125:34] >> When Jon Jones fought Thiago Santos, [125:37] >> I think it was Thiago Santos, I think it [125:38] was. Um, [125:40] >> yeah, Thiago Santos, he blew out both [125:42] his legs. He had to have knee surgery on [125:45] both legs after the fight. [125:46] >> Both legs. [125:47] >> That's crazy. [125:48] >> Crazy. Cuz just throwing those oblique [125:50] kicks and the sidekick to the knee. [125:52] >> Yeah. [125:52] >> Blew out both his knees. [125:53] >> Yeah. That's that's a kick I don't like. [125:55] When Ian Garry fought Shaovkcott, uh, [125:58] Shaot Rockmanov, who's a top [126:00] welterweight guy, one of the top [126:01] contenders, he hit him with an oblique [126:03] kick in his left knee and his knee's [126:05] been [ __ ] ever since. And he had to [126:07] have surgery, had a second surgery, and [126:08] he's still out. [126:09] >> Yeah. [126:10] >> Yeah. It's [126:10] >> It's about [126:12] >> That's what bothers me about that is [126:14] that you might not ever recover if your [126:16] knee gets ripped to shreds, your [126:18] meniscus gets torn apart, your ACL, MCL [126:20] gets blown out. So, this is the This is [126:22] Khalil Roundry. Watch this. Boom. Oh. [126:28] >> Oh yeah. Watch it from this angle. LOOK [126:30] AT HOW FAR OH MAN, IT screams [126:34] >> horrible. Horrible. [126:36] >> I wonder about that one. [126:38] >> Look at that. Oh, look at that. [126:39] >> Because I feel like that one maybe is [126:41] too much. Yeah. Because it's just like [126:43] >> it's just career a career ending. [126:45] >> A career ender. Yeah. I mean, if we're I [126:47] don't know. I'm torn because on one side [126:50] one hand it's like it doesn't happen [126:51] that often and you should be able to [126:54] defend against it and you knowing it [126:55] exists you have to be able to defend [126:57] against it but [126:58] >> the thing is one kick could change and [127:01] you're out for a year and like like we [127:03] said a fighter really only has x amount [127:05] of years to compete and one whole year [127:08] gone from one kick is kind of crazy. [127:10] >> Yeah. But by the way that's pretty [127:12] extraordinary how you do that. how you [127:14] know all the all those names and fights [127:16] from I don't know how long ago and [127:18] you're just like [127:19] >> yeah but I don't remember a lot of other [127:20] things. [laughter] [127:22] >> My memory is really really good but also [127:25] kind of unreliable with some things. [127:27] >> It's just focused on [127:29] >> it's [laughter] focused on the things I [127:30] care about which is a lot of it is [127:31] combat sports but the the the knee one [127:34] that's the the only one that really [127:35] bothers me that and um I think knees to [127:38] the head to a grounded opponent. I don't [127:40] think [127:40] >> No, that's not No, that's [127:42] >> You don't think they should be able to [127:43] do that? [127:43] >> No. [127:44] >> I don't think you should be able to [127:44] turtle [127:45] >> even even stomp on somebody's head, but [127:48] they're not allowed to do that anymore. [127:49] >> You can't stomp. But you can in Ryzen [127:52] allows [127:52] >> like back in the day they did they did [127:54] that. [127:54] >> Yep. You used to be able to stomp and [127:56] soccer kick. [127:57] >> But think when a guy shoots on your legs [128:00] and just curls up in a fetal position [128:02] and just holds on. You shouldn't be able [128:03] to do that. You should be able to knee [128:04] that guy in the head because he doesn't [128:06] have to hold on to that. If your knee is [128:08] free and he can knee you in the you [128:10] should have to adjust. [128:12] >> Yeah, [128:12] >> that should that's a it's too legitimate [128:14] of a technique. [128:15] >> Yeah. [128:16] >> You know, it's it's hard. [128:18] >> Yeah. If somebody's on the ground, they [128:19] like this. [128:20] >> The problem also is the cage versus the [128:22] ring because in a ring, soccer kicks [128:25] make more sense and knees to the head [128:28] make more sense because you can move [128:29] around and you can get away from it [128:31] because you could go under the the rope. [128:33] Like if a knee's coming to your head, [128:34] there's movement. Whereas the cage [128:37] trapped right there. And I think that [128:39] that's an an another element of the [128:43] fight. That's an unnecessary element. I [128:45] think maybe even what karate combat's [128:47] doing might be the best way to do it. [128:49] >> Those those Yeah. What is it's a m [128:53] It looks nice. [128:54] >> I think that might be the best way to do [128:56] it. The only problem with that is when [128:57] you get to the edge, you're stumbling [129:00] because you're you're [129:01] >> it's it's like half you fall over it and [129:03] Yeah. [129:03] >> But but learn how to adjust to that. And [129:06] that's better than a cage. Yeah. [129:08] >> Because a cage is just a [ __ ] [129:10] physical wall. Yeah. So the thing about [129:12] the ramp, the bowl, that [ __ ] doesn't [129:14] help you get up at all. No. [129:16] >> Like if somebody takes you down against [129:18] that, that's you're not that doesn't [129:20] help you. [129:20] >> Where a wall [ __ ] helps you. And [129:22] there's guys that are doing workouts now [129:25] where they put their back up against a [129:27] wall and they're doing kettle bell [129:28] getups where they're just to feel like [129:31] >> Yes. They're lifting up heavy kettle [129:33] bells and they're doing it in stages. [129:35] Yeah. Getting up from the ground just to [129:37] emulate that position, [129:39] >> but it's a it's it's an element. [129:41] >> Yeah. But that's why I feel like [129:43] everything has the ring has certain [129:45] things because I feel like if you do MMA [129:47] in a ring and somebody shoots or [129:49] whatever, then maybe they go through the [129:51] ropes, they shoot the right. So that's [129:53] that's dangerous. But and then you see [129:55] boxing like when Bernard Hopkins fought [129:57] Joe Smith Jr. and he went through the [129:59] ropes and fell and landed on his head. [130:00] Yeah, it's [130:01] >> crazy. That's how the fight ended. Like [130:04] >> there's there's But I think that was [130:06] just shitty planning. I think they [130:07] should have pads around the ring and [130:09] they should, you know, in case someone [130:10] fall, you shouldn't just hope they don't [130:11] fall. Have some or have a larger apron, [130:14] too. That's you could you could fix a [130:16] lot with a much larger apron where if a [130:17] guy falls out, there's something around [130:19] the edge of the ring. [130:21] >> But I think a cage, the problem is in [130:24] most people's eyes, UFC equals cage. [130:27] Like you fight in a cage. [130:28] >> And the mindset of it is pretty cool. [130:31] >> Yeah. [130:32] >> Because you get locked up. You [130:34] >> Exactly. Put that bar down. [130:36] >> Exactly. That going nowhere. [130:38] >> Yeah. There's something to be said for [130:40] that. [130:40] >> Yeah. So it it has something, but Yeah. [130:43] I hear what you're saying, but that's [130:44] like we we just talked about everything [130:46] has [130:46] >> Yeah. [130:47] >> It pros and its cons. [130:49] >> Everything has its pros and its cons. [130:50] And everything is exciting in its own [130:52] way. like boxing on its own, like [130:54] there's elements of boxing that you [130:56] would not see if they were allowed to do [130:59] leg kicks and elbows and all that. So, [131:01] there's something beautiful about just [131:03] pure elite boxing. [131:05] >> 100%. [131:06] >> And there's something pure about elite [131:07] kickboxing. And then there's something [131:09] pure about elite Muay Thai. Yeah. [131:11] >> And then there's something pure about [131:12] MMA about watching it all together. So, [131:14] and then and jiu-jitsu as well. See, [131:17] that's the other thing. The UFC is doing [131:18] UFC Brazilian jiu-jitsu. So they have [131:21] these big UFC jiu-jitsu matches. Oh, [131:23] really? [131:23] >> Yeah. So like cool [131:25] >> kickboxing. Yeah, let's try it. [131:27] >> It's right there. It's right there, [131:29] guys. I I keep sending Dana White [131:31] fights. I send him fights like because [131:33] I'm trying to get him to do this. I'm [131:34] like, you should get involved. [131:36] >> I think he's too busy. [131:37] >> Yeah, [131:37] >> he's too busy. He's also got that slap [131:39] fight [ __ ] So he's doing that crazy [131:41] like never get into [131:44] [laughter] it's fun to watch, but it's [131:46] like oh my god. [131:47] >> It's fun. It's [131:47] >> like why just stand there and just take [131:49] a punch? I just like try to move around [131:51] and just slip and slide and you know you [131:53] just stand there. [131:54] >> Stand there with your hands behind your [131:56] back holding on to a thing. Just take it [131:58] on the face like [ __ ] that. [131:59] >> Yeah. You're a pretty You're a pretty [132:01] [laughter] [132:01] big animal if you do that. You're a [132:03] Yeah. [132:04] >> No, but that's why for me that like now [132:07] experiencing boxing I really I can [132:10] really genuinely say that I see boxing [132:14] as an art. [132:15] >> Oh, for sure. And kickboxing is it's [132:19] been my life. It's brought me [132:21] everything. So, it's it's so much fun, [132:23] but it's it's more intense. It's more [132:26] brutal and it's quick. It's like the [132:28] pace is so fast. And [132:31] >> in the championship fights were just [132:33] five rounds, right? [132:34] >> So, if you lose one round, you're like, [132:35] "Oh." And now it's like, like I said, [132:38] it's it's an art. You have 12 rounds. [132:42] And I saw the the the Bivo better be [132:45] fight and then for the first so many [132:47] rounds better be was so much better and [132:50] then later in the round and then Biv [132:52] still got the got the win like wow how [132:54] cool is that well the f if you look at [132:57] the fight you think oh this is not going [132:59] to go well and then he adjust and it [133:02] changes so it's like I said I really [133:05] feel like boxing is so much of an art [133:07] and you have 12 rounds to paint your [133:09] masterpiece. [133:10] >> Yes. So it's [133:12] >> and if you appreciate that art form, if [133:13] you really understand it and appreciate [133:15] it, it's beautiful to watch. Like it's [133:17] beautiful to watch like Floyd when he [133:18] was in his prime% [133:20] >> barely would get hit and Floyd unlike [133:22] anybody else was standing right in front [133:24] of everybody. [133:25] >> He was barely getting hit. He was [133:26] standing right there. [133:28] >> He wasn't running away and moving [133:30] around. He was right in front of guys [133:31] and they couldn't hit him. [133:33] >> Extraordinary. And that's what what I [133:34] also liked or still like about Canelo [133:38] because after that fight, you saw the [133:41] whole transition Canelo made and he took [133:43] so I think I I truly believe that he [133:45] took so much from that fight with uh [133:48] with Mayweather because then he started [133:50] applying it himself. [133:51] >> Unquestionably [133:53] he missing. Oh, I love that. [133:55] >> Yes. Unquestionably. Yeah. His head [133:57] movement got much better after that [133:58] fight. [133:59] >> I mean that's the thing that happens [134:00] when you fight the elite. You get Daniel [134:02] Cormier always says you get the rub. [134:05] Like you fight an elite guy, win, lose [134:07] or draw, you get the rub. Like you some [134:09] of it rubs off on you. [134:11] >> Exactly. [134:11] >> So that's why I'm excited to see you [134:13] fight again, too. [134:14] >> I'm I'm I'm so excited to to to compete [134:16] again. But let's let's see who it's [134:18] going to be. [134:19] >> Well, let's hope this podcast gets the [134:21] wheels turning. [134:22] >> We we planted we planted some seeds. [134:24] >> Yeah. Maybe his excellency will will [134:26] hear this and he'll decide that it's [134:28] time to go [134:29] >> and [134:30] I'll call you right after. Yo, Joe, [134:32] [laughter] [134:33] >> it happened. Thanks. We did it. [134:35] >> That would be make me very happy if we [134:37] somehow or another motivated them to get [134:40] back to the negotiation table cuz I [134:42] >> but just but just let's let's make an [134:43] agreement now. Let's just make sure [134:45] you're going to be there then. [134:46] >> What was the last conversation you guys [134:48] had about it? Uh I think a week a week [134:53] ago, week and a half ago. It was more [134:55] more of a general conversation. Hey, [134:57] we're looking at [134:59] >> Yeah. [134:59] >> What's next? So, [135:01] >> and what did you say to them? Did you [135:03] say rematch? [135:05] >> Of course. [135:05] >> And what did they say? [135:07] >> Like, yeah, but yeah, you need to you [135:10] need two parties for that. [135:12] >> Said, I know. Make it happen. [135:14] >> Yeah. You got to roll up to Usyk's house [135:17] with the Brinks truck. [135:18] >> [laughter] [135:19] >> Just back that thing up. [135:21] >> Beep. [135:22] >> Exactly. [135:23] >> Get the arm guards, open the door, show [135:25] them all the gold. [135:28] >> That's maybe my name and my face on it. [135:31] Like, [laughter] [135:33] >> okay, [135:35] put it in first. [135:36] >> I think that's the fight. And I hope you [135:37] get it. I really do. But either way, you [135:41] your performance was extraordinary and [135:43] you've had a [ __ ] incredible career, [135:45] man. You should be proud. Yeah, you [135:47] really incredible career in kickboxing. [135:50] Greatest heavyweight kickboxer of all [135:51] time. [135:52] >> Thank you so much. I really appreciate [135:53] that. And uh it's not just for me being [135:56] here, sitting here now because I've been [135:58] seeing you and hearing you talk about it [136:00] for Yeah. for years already. So, like I [136:04] said, it is it really really really [136:06] means the world coming from you because [136:07] you're an expert. You're you look [136:09] everything. You look at everything. You [136:10] see everything the different [136:12] organizations. So, you know where to [136:14] place certain guys. from history and [136:17] from now. So, means the world. Thank you [136:19] so much. [136:20] >> My pleasure, brother. It's honor an [136:21] honor to have you here. [136:22] >> And again, thank you so much again for [136:24] for being here. So, it's uh it's been a [136:26] while, but we're back. [136:27] >> Well, I had to reach out after the [136:29] fight. I was like, "Oh my god, we got to [136:30] do this. We got to talk." [136:32] >> I was like, "Holy [ __ ] man." I I [136:34] reached out immediately. I was like, [136:35] "What the [ __ ] You had it?" [136:38] [laughter] [136:39] >> Yeah. [136:40] >> Yeah. I I saw the the episode you guys [136:43] did about it. You were talking about it. [136:44] And I was like, "Oh my god, [laughter] I [136:46] know." [136:47] >> It was incredible. But listen, brother, [136:49] congratulations on everything and I [136:51] really, really, really hope you get that [136:52] rematch. [136:53] >> Good seeing you, brother. [136:54] >> Good to see you, too, sir. Thank you [136:55] very much. Thanks, sir. [136:57] >> Thank you, everybody. Bye. [137:03] [music]