Dr. Darby Saxbe Probes Fatherhood Brain Pruning and Hormonal Drops

Darby Saxbe 博士探讨为父后的大脑修剪与激素变化 亲身参与育儿会通过灰质流失重塑男性大脑，并引发睾酮水平下降25%以提升照料能力。 Darby Saxbe 博士深入探讨了男性成为父亲后所经历的深刻神经和内分泌适应，强调父亲的照护行为是一种兼性、由实践驱动的适应，而非先天的蓝图。亲力亲为的育儿会导致睾酮水平下降约25%，同时伴随大脑心智化网络中有针对性的灰质修剪，这增强了照护的敏锐度，但可能会暂时增加父亲患产后抑郁的风险。讨论还涉及孕期关系冲突如何直接影响分娩和产后结局、“奶爸身材”（dad bod）的演化优势，以及为人父母在长期带来的神经保护益处（如更年轻的脑年龄）。Saxbe 博士最终强调“伟大的父亲是后天造就的，而非天生的”，并呼吁推行带薪育儿假等结构性转变，以更好地支持现代共同育儿。 为人父会导致可测量的大脑物理结构变化，包括皮层通过神经修剪和精简来减少灰质，从而提高信息传递效率。 (0:00) 父亲的参与度与大脑体积变化直接相关，在日常照料中投入更多时间的实操型父亲表现出最显著的灰质流失。 (8:35) 亲力亲为的父亲睾酮水平大约会下降25%，这种生理转变是由积极照护和同室共寝所驱动，而非先前基线水平较低所致。 (9:29) 较高的基线睾酮水平可能会削弱亲密关系满意度，但产后睾酮的剧烈骤降则会增加父亲罹患产后抑郁的风险。 (11:42) 育儿提供了显著的长期认知抗衰老益处，中年父母表现出更年轻的结构性“脑年龄”特征，该效应在育有两到三个孩子时达到顶峰。 (37:54)

## Background 本期访谈由知名商业与成长播客《The Diary Of A CEO》（主持人 Steven Bartlett）于 2026 年 8 月 24 日在 YouTube 平台发布。节目特邀南加州大学 NEST 实验室主任、心理学教授 Darby Saxbe 博士做客，深入探讨“父母大脑”的前沿神经科学发现。根据页面简介，内容聚焦于成为父亲如何从物理层面重塑男性的大脑结构与激素水平、睾酮骤降 25% 的生物学机制、为何男性也会经历产后抑郁，以及“老爸身材”背后蕴含的演化适应意义。 ## TL;DR Darby Saxbe 博士结合脑影像扫描与内分泌追踪研究指出，新手父亲的睾酮水平会适应性骤降约 25%，同时大脑皮质的心智化与视觉网络会经历类似电影剪辑般的“突触修剪”，灰质体积的物理缩小实质上是为了更敏锐地解读婴儿情绪信号。尽管育儿初期伴随剧烈的睡眠剥夺与伴侣关系满意度下滑，但英国生物样本库等大数据表明，养育 2 至 3 个孩子的父母在晚年反而呈现出更年轻的脑龄和长远的神经保护效应。此外，对谈深入拆解了伴侣在产后陷入“母职把关”与“武器化无能”的沟通死循环，阐释了人类隐蔽排卵与配偶结合的演化博弈，并强烈呼吁社会通过普惠性带薪育儿假来破解少子化危机与现代孤立育儿的困境。 ## Atmosphere & style 整场对话在轻松幽默与严谨硬核的科学探讨之间张弛有度，主持人即将为人父的真挚请教为深奥的神经影像学研究注入了极富生活气息的温度。Saxbe 博士展现出学者罕见的同理心与坦诚，她不仅用生动的比喻拆解复杂的生理机制，更毫无保留地分享自身家庭经历，使得科学理论与真实的生活阵痛紧密相扣。整期节目从颠覆认知的脑科学事实逐步走向对人类演化、两性联结与社会制度的宏观反思，带给观众极具启发性且充满抚慰力量的沉浸式收听体验。 ## Bulletin - [02:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=153s) 神经影像学研究显示，新手父亲与母亲一样会出现大脑灰质体积物理性缩减（修剪增效），且大脑缩小的程度与父亲在产前产后的照料投入度呈正相关。 - [09:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=569s) 深度参与育儿的新手父亲睾酮水平平均骤降约 25%，这种生理下调有助于削弱攻击性并切换为耐心哺育模式，甚至在伴侣孕期通过生理同步就已启动。 - [38:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2295s) 英国生物样本库大规模数据显示，养育过 2 至 3 个孩子的五六十岁中老年人大脑表观年龄显著更年轻，育儿期的高强度社交与共情互动在晚年发挥着持久的神经保护作用。 - [22:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=1361s) 伴侣在孕期的冲突沟通模式直接影响分娩结局，以轻蔑和筑墙冷战为代表的负面争吵会显著增加医学难产与并发症风险，而“情感确认”则是化解对抗的核心保护机制。 ## Key takeaways - [02:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=153s) 父亲角色的生理转变是一种“兼性适应”：人类父亲大脑皮层的修剪主要集中在负责换位思考的心智化网络和视觉皮层，属于认知驱动的主动投资。 - [06:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=390s) 大脑体积缩减并非智力或认知衰退，而是突触修剪的优化过程，大脑主动舍弃冗余连接以建立高效的育儿神经回路。 - [11:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=702s) 产后父亲的睾酮水平存在“甜蜜点”，维持过高睾酮与伴侣冲突、亲密暴力倾向及高育儿压力相关，而睾酮彻底跌入谷底则显著提升男性产后抑郁风险。 - [28:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=1725s) 现代社会将生育观念从人生的“基石”（先成家再共同奋斗）异化为“顶峰成就”（功成名就万事俱备才敢生），这种孤立育儿的预期加剧了年轻人的生育拖延与全球生育率暴跌。 - [45:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2722s) 人类演化为协同抚养物种，日托与多元依恋并非心理创伤根源，将 3 岁以下育儿压力完全孤立压在母亲一人身上反而更容易引发严重的亲职耗竭。 - [47:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2850s) 母亲因十月怀胎和哺乳具备“生理抢跑优势”而易成为默认抚养人，若缺乏理性分工，极易陷入“母职把关”与父亲“武器化无能”的恶性循环。 - [57:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3431s) 伴侣间皮质醇等压力激素的高度同步并非默契象征，反而往往反映出生理层面的“压力传染”，健康的伴侣更需要一方提供理性调谐与情绪缓冲。 - [01:01:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3671s) 人类演化出“隐蔽排卵”机制，模糊受孕窗口迫使男性长期守护与投入，从而奠定了人类以稳定单配偶协作抚育漫长幼崽的繁衍模式。 - [01:06:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3988s) 优秀的父亲是后天实践铸就的而非天生具备，产前使用代词“我们”更多、产后实际承担更多繁琐照护工作的父亲，其伴侣满意度与自身幸福感显著更高。 - [01:16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=4562s) “老爸身材”具有演化适应性，是体内催乳素升高、缺眠及能量储备机制的共同结果，女性在择偶潜意识中常将其与高投入度、关怀型伴侣挂钩。 - [01:24:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=5072s) 美国在联邦层面普惠性带薪育儿假的长期缺位是导致家庭育儿孤立与生育率低迷的制度短板，推行法定带薪产假与陪产假是破解现代社会信任危机与孤独感的关键系统性变革。 ## Detailed walkthrough ### [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=0s) 成为父亲的生理剧变：大脑萎缩、睾酮骤降与生育焦虑 对谈在一系列令人颠覆认知的科学发现中拉开序幕。Dr. Darby Saxbe 指出，男性在成为父亲之后，大脑结构实际上会发生物理层面的缩小，同时伴随着约 25% 的睾酮水平骤降；然而与此相对的是，多项研究显示，拥有更多孩子的父母其大脑年龄标记物反而更加年轻。两人还轻松地聊到了两性吸引力的演变——针对单身女性的偏好调查显示，在各种男性体型中，略带脂肪、显得亲和的“爸爸身材”（dad bod）竟然最受欢迎。主持人 Steven Bartlett 随即打趣道：“照科学这么说，如果我现在去练出一个‘爸爸身材’，我就更有吸引力了？那我得看看我未婚妻怎么说了。” 幽默的调侃很快转入对严肃现实的讨论。Steven 提到，生儿育女无疑是一个人所能经历的最深刻的蜕变之一，但他非常担忧如今全球断崖式下跌的出生率，社会舆论甚至在某种程度上把“生孩子”营销成了一种性价比极低、令人望而却步的选择。Saxbe 对此表示认同，并引用美国疾病控制与预防中心（CDC）和皮尤研究中心（Pew Research）的数据指出，美国总和生育率刚刚跌至历史有记录以来的最低谷。Saxbe 坦言，初为人父母的过渡期确实极具挑战：个人时间的彻底牺牲、睡眠被剥夺以及严重的孤立感；但这一旅程带来的深度联结感、人生意义以及对生活优先级的重塑，能提供无与伦比的人生价值。当 Steven 透露自己如果一切顺利将在明年升级当父亲并虚心求教时，Saxbe 送给他一句话：“优秀的父亲是后天铸就的，而非天生如此（Great fathers are made not born）。” - **脑生理与激素改变**：新手父亲在迎来孩子后，睾酮水平通常平均下降约 25%，大脑灰质体积出现可见的缩小。 - **生育率危机**：根据 CDC 与皮尤研究中心的统计，美国总和生育率已创下有记录以来的历史新低。 - **心理认同收益**：尽管牺牲了充足睡眠并面临育儿孤立，父母在大脑健康标记物上却往往显现出更年轻的脑龄，并能获得深层联结与人生意义感。 --- ### [01:39](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=99s) 频道关注与初心承诺 在深入硬核神经科学探讨之前，Steven 插播了一段诚恳的呼吁。团队的数据报告显示，有相当一部分经常收看节目的忠实观众实际上并未点击订阅，或者由于平台机制被误取消了订阅。随着频道即将迎来一个极其关键的订阅里程碑，Steven 恳请观众顺手检查并点击订阅按钮。 Steven 直言，维持这档高质量且完全免费的节目需要庞大团队在幕后持续投入，而观众动动手指免费订阅就是对团队最大的支持。作为回报，他向所有听众郑重承诺：“我向大家保证，每周、每个月，我们都会拼尽全力为大家邀请最想听到的重磅嘉宾、展开最深刻的对话。”他强调自己从《The Diary Of A CEO》创立第一天起就始终信守这个诺言，未来也绝不会让听众失望。 --- ### [02:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=153s) 父亲大脑的重塑：心智化网络与皮层修剪 访谈正式切入 Dr. Darby Saxbe 实验室的核心科学发现：男性在成为父亲后，大脑究竟发生了什么。桌上放置着一个大脑解剖模型，Saxbe 指出，核磁共振成像（MRI）扫描显示，新手父亲与母亲一样，其大脑中的灰质体积（gray matter volume）会经历真实的流失，也就是“大脑在物理上缩小了”。Saxbe 甚至开玩笑说，如果自己的手劲足够大，她现在就能把手里的脑模型捏小一圈。 进一步的解剖学分析揭示，父亲大脑中萎缩最为显著的区域高度集中在“心智化网络”（mentalizing network）。该网络分布在大脑皮质的中线部位，负责理解他人的感受、意图与心理状态（即同理心与换位思考）；另一个发生明显体积缩减的区域是负责处理视觉信息的大脑后部视觉区，这对于父亲通过观察婴儿细微的面部表情来推断其情绪需求至关重要。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 母亲与父亲大脑可塑性重塑对比 accDescr: 对比母亲全脑广泛变化与激素驱动，以及父亲以大脑皮层高级认知网络修剪为主的适应模式 subgraph Maternal["母亲的大脑变化（生物本能驱动）"] M1["9个月孕期与激素激增"] --> M2["全脑范围神经可塑性"] M2 --> M3["皮层下区域（Subcortex）<br/>掌控奖赏机制、直觉与本能"] M2 --> M4["皮质中线与视觉网络"] end subgraph Paternal["父亲的大脑变化（认知介入驱动）"] P1["环境线索与育儿选择"] --> P2["大脑外层皮质修剪"] P2 --> P3["心智化网络（Mentalizing Network）<br/>推断婴儿情绪与心理状态"] P2 --> P4["视觉皮层区域<br/>高效识读婴儿面部表情"] end ``` Saxbe 重点对比了母亲与父亲的大脑重塑差异： - **母亲的大脑变化**：经历 9 个月漫长孕期并在分娩时经历极具冲击力的激素风暴，母亲的大脑改变是“全脑范围”的，不仅涵盖皮层，还深刻重塑了皮层下结构（Subcortex）。皮层下中枢直接掌管直觉（gut feelings）、奖赏机制以及内分泌调节，形成了极高的生理投资底线。 - **父亲的大脑变化**：主要集中于大脑的最外层——大脑皮质（Cortex），即掌控高阶思维、逻辑推理与执行功能（executive functioning）的区域。这证明男性的父职转变并非纯粹由生化激素单向推动，而是一种“认知介导的投资”（cognitively mediated investment），反映出男性在主观上选择主动参与养育后代。 --- ### [04:20](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=260s) 兼性适应：父亲角色的文化差异与演化机制 为了阐释父亲大脑为何呈现出这种“认知介导”的独特性，Saxbe 从演化生物学与跨文化人类学的视角进行了深度剖析。女性维持一次妊娠需要消耗成千上万卡路里的能量，这种巨大的生理投资决定了母亲对婴儿生存具有必然的强联结。与母亲这种近乎固定的高投资门槛不同，人类父亲在不同文化与环境中的表现呈现出巨大的变异性（cross-cultural variability）。 在某些文化群体中，父亲从孩子呱呱坠地的那一刻起就全方位参与照料、形影不离；但在另一些文化中，甚至存在着严厉的禁忌——比如规定父亲在孩子出生后的第一年内绝对不能抱婴儿，理由是“抱孩子会被视为丧失男子气概”。人类男性能根据文化习俗、生存压力和具体家庭环境灵活校准自己的养育投入；如果母亲因故缺席或无法照料，父亲便能迅速顶上承担全部照料职责。 在生物学上，这种机制被称为“兼性适应”（facultative adaptation）。Saxbe 用了一个形象的演化比喻：这就好比一种习惯四肢行走的动物，当环境中突然出现了某种极具价值的物品需要抓取时，它便能瞬间切换为双腿站立行走，从而腾出双手使用工具。双手的运用对该物种而言极其有用，但也是情境性的。父亲的存在与参与对整个人类物种的繁衍进化同样具有关键价值；虽然他们的育儿模式在情境上是高度可塑与可调节的，但在特定现实环境下，父亲的深度卷入能够决定后代能否茁壮成长。 --- ### [06:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=390s) 大脑萎缩是“修剪”与增效：越投入的父亲萎缩越显著 针对大众容易产生的误区，Steven 提出了质疑：既然掌管同理心和心智化的脑区体积缩小了，这是否意味着男性当了父亲后“同理心反而下降了”？而且通常人们认为“掌握一项技能会让大脑变大”，萎缩听起来十分反直觉。Saxbe 纠正了这种将体积缩减与认知功能衰退（如民间俗称的“孕傻”/ mommy brain）等同起来的偏见。 Saxbe 解释称，神经科学中的大脑体积缩减（volume reduction）实际上是大脑在进行“突触修剪”（synaptic pruning）与连接优化，目的是让神经环路运转得更为高效。她打了一个非常生动的电影剪辑比喻： > “这就像是看一部包含了大量琐碎无用镜头和冗杂角色的导演剪辑版（director's cut），而你在电影院看到的公映版是一部精炼凌厉、毫无赘肉的两小时成片——大多数人都更喜欢公映版，因为它的主线更紧凑清晰。” 大脑主动舍弃了冗余的旁支回路，腾出有限的能量预算，在负责社会认知与育儿关键信息的神经元之间搭建了一条“神经高速公路”，从而能够以极高的效率精准捕捉婴儿发出的啼哭与微表情信号。 更关键的是，Saxbe 实验室在实证研究中发现了一种明确的“剂量反应关系”（dose-response relationship）：父亲大脑缩小的程度与其投入度直接正相关。 - **产前预期**：那些在孩子出生前就表示与未出生的宝宝建立了深厚情感联结、并主动希望在产后休更长陪产假的父亲； - **产后互动**：在产后 3 个月时反馈自己非常享受与婴儿相处、感受到强烈羁绊，并且在日常生活中实际花费大量时间照顾宝宝的父亲； - **扫描结果**：在 MRI 脑扫描中，这些深度参与育儿的父亲的大脑灰质体积缩减最为显著。 这一实证结果有力地佐证了：新手父亲大脑结构的“缩水”非但不是损伤，反而是一种极具演化适应性的精密神经重塑。 ### [09:29](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=569s) 成为父亲后的激素变化与睾酮下降 当男性迎来自己的孩子时，除了大脑结构上的重塑，身体还会发生深刻的内分泌变化，其中最显著的就是睾酮水平的下降。研究表明，积极参与育儿（hands-on）的新手父亲，其睾酮水平通常会下降大约 25%。关于这一现象，最具代表性的长期纵向追踪研究来自菲律宾。在过去缺乏纵向研究时，学界曾怀疑是否原本睾酮较低的男性才更倾向于结婚生子；而横跨数十年的纵向追踪明确打破了这一假设——在伴侣怀孕前，这些男性的睾酮水平普遍处于较高状态，正是“成为父亲”这一现实与随后的照料行为直接促成了睾酮的骤降。 这种激素的动态调节在演化上具有极高的适应意义。在鸟类、啮齿动物和其他哺乳动物中都能观察到类似的机制：在繁殖季节初期，雄性需要维持高睾酮，以便争夺配偶、争取社会地位并击退竞争对手；一旦繁殖目标达成、伴侣受孕且幼崽降生，生存策略的重点就必须从“对外竞争”转向“对内哺育与投资”。菲律宾的研究清晰地显示，父亲在换尿布、照料婴儿、与孩子同床睡眠上投入的时间越多，其睾酮下降的幅度就越剧烈。随着孩子逐渐长大独立，父亲体内的睾酮通常又会重新回升。 更令人称奇的是，这种生理转变甚至在孩子出生前就已悄然启动。Dr. Darby Saxbe 的实验室发现，准爸爸与准妈妈在孕期的睾酮水平呈现出明显的同步相关性，而伴侣间这种激素关联越紧密，父亲在孩子出生后的睾酮下降幅度就越大。这表明男性甚至不需要亲手抱到新生儿，仅仅是与怀孕伴侣的物理接近和情感联结，身体便会接收到环境信号，主动下调睾酮以适应即将到来的育儿需求。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 父亲在不同生育阶段的睾酮动态与演化适应机制 accDescr: 展示男性在孕前竞争期、育儿抚育期以及孩子长大后的睾酮水平变化及其对应的生物学功能。 subgraph 孕前竞争期 A["高睾酮状态"] --> B["提升竞争动力 / 争夺配偶 / 确立社会地位"] end subgraph 伴侣怀孕与新生儿期 B --> C["物理亲近与感知孕期信号"] C --> D["睾酮显著下降（降幅约 25%）"] D --> E["削弱攻击性与外向竞争欲"] E --> F["专注家庭抚育 / 细致照料婴儿"] end subgraph 孩子成长阶段 F --> G["睾酮水平逐步回升至平衡区间"] end ``` - **降幅数据**：深度参与育儿的新手父亲睾酮水平平均下降约 25%。 - **照料强度与降幅成正比**：换尿布、共寝以及亲手照护时间越长，睾酮下降越明显。 - **孕期生理同步**：准父母在孕期的睾酮水平存在强相关性，预示着产后更显著的激素重塑。 --- ### [11:42](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=702s) 睾酮下降等于男子气概减弱吗？ 当听到“睾酮下降”时，许多男性的第一反应往往是焦虑和抗拒，担心这会影响健身增肌、削弱野心或削弱自身的“男子气概”。Dr. Darby Saxbe 指出，当代社会充斥着一种将“高睾酮”简单等同于“成功男子气概”的片面叙事。然而，真正的男子气概并不取决于某一种特定激素的绝对数值，而在于身体能否敏锐响应我们的人生目标，并随着环境与发展阶段的转换灵活调整。 拥有根据生命周期动态波动的内分泌系统，是一种高级的生物适应能力。将睾酮推向极限不仅不意味着更健康，反而会带来严重的生理代价——持续过高的睾酮实际上会降低精子计数，并对免疫系统产生抑制和损害。此外，人类激素研究极为复杂，睾酮与职场成功、肌肉力量或生活动力之间绝非简单的一对一正比关系，许多所谓的强关联在科学数据中其实相当微弱。 更关键的是，过高的睾酮可能成为男性建立深层亲密关系的阻碍。Dr. Darby Saxbe 的实验室在研究中发现，在孩子出生后体内睾酮仍维持在相对较高水平的父亲，其伴侣往往报告出更低的亲密关系满意度，甚至出现更多伴侣间言语或肢体冲突；同时，这些高睾酮的父亲自身也体验到了更高的育儿压力。因为亢奋的竞争激素会阻碍大脑神经回路顺利切换到细致、耐心的抚育模式，让男性在家庭互动中更容易感到挫败与紧绷。 - **超高睾酮的生理代价**：抑制人体免疫功能，降低精子数量与质量。 - **关系冲突隐患**：产后睾酮过高与伴侣关系满意度下滑、亲密暴力倾向以及更高育儿压力直接相关。 - **灵活的生物机制**：成熟的男性生理应当根据人生阶段在“竞争求偶”与“温情照料”之间自如切换。 --- ### [13:16](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=796s) 睾酮水平的“甜蜜点”与产后抑郁风险 激素调节的精髓在于平衡而非走极端。虽然高睾酮可能引发关系紧张，但睾酮若是断崖式暴跌同样会带来问题。Dr. Darby Saxbe 强调，研究中发现那些产后睾酮彻底跌入谷底的男性，出现男性产后抑郁（paternal postpartum depression）症状的概率会显著攀升。表现最佳、适应最顺利的往往是那些处于“中间甜蜜点（sweet spot）”的父亲——他们的睾酮适度下调以容纳温情，但仍保持适度的弹性与活力。 面对这一发现，主持人 Steven Bartlett 追问，这是否意味着存在一个“最佳育儿时长”，让父亲既能兼顾陪伴孩子，又不会因为投入过多而导致睾酮过低引发抑郁？Dr. Darby Saxbe 澄清道，目前并没有任何科学依据能够计算出某种精确的“育儿剂量”来卡位激素。她坚决反对父亲们因为害怕“生理受损”而刻意减少对孩子的照料与陪伴。 想要抵御产后抑郁和生理耗竭，关键不在于通过生硬的计算去对冲天然的生理变化，而在于建立全面的身心保护网： - **捍卫基础睡眠**：缺乏深度睡眠是身心崩溃与激素失调的首要推手。 - **保持规律锻炼**：维持基础代谢、肌肉耐力与神经递质健康。 - **维系社交与个人兴趣**：在家庭琐事之余保留属于自己的快乐来源，避免陷入完全封闭的育儿孤岛。 试图通过“生物黑客（biohack）”手段强行把控某项激素数值是徒劳且本末倒置的，健康的生活节奏自然会帮助身体锚定在富有弹性的安全阈值内。 --- ### [16:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=960s) 价值观的剧烈重塑：从追逐财富到陪伴孩子 这种身体与大脑的底层重塑，最终在外在行为与人生追求上展现为一次深刻的蜕变。Steven Bartlett 分享了自己年长一岁哥哥的亲身经历：哥哥极度聪明，毕业于伦敦政治经济学院（LSE），学生时代甚至坐在电脑前精确检索哪种工作薪酬最高，整个人生轨迹完全围绕最大化赚钱与追求物质目标展开。然而，当妻子 Julia 意外怀孕并迎来第一个孩子后，他的整个人生态度发生了天翻地覆的变化——原本凌驾于一切之上的财富目标瞬间退居二线，退居为“如何早点退休以最大化陪伴孩子的时间”。如今已是三个孩子父亲的他，毫不犹豫地将孩子置于人生的绝对首位。 Dr. Darby Saxbe 对此深有共鸣。她在为新书采访众多父亲时，几乎所有人都谈到了这种价值观与人生优先级的剧烈重置。民意调查同样显示，当被问及“人生中最有意义的事物是什么”时，男性选择“我的孩子”的比例丝毫不逊于女性。在现代文化中，许多男性常常深陷于意义缺失、目标虚无与孤独感之中，而为人父母恰恰赋予了他们无可替代的生命锚点与存在意义。 | 现代流行叙事（外在优化） | 人生长寿与幸福研究的真实结论 | |:--- |:--- | | 执迷于银行账户的数字与财富最大化 | 人际关系的质量是预测晚年幸福最核心的指标 | | 偏执追求极致的低体脂率与外表男子气概 | 稳固和谐的婚姻关系显著延缓身心衰老 | | 推崇无休止的向外内卷与狼性竞争（hustle） | 与子女保持亲密温暖的互动带来深层生命意义感 | Dr. Darby Saxbe 总结道，大脑灰质修剪、睾酮适度下降或是育儿带来的疲劳与皱纹，听起来或许令人有些担忧，但它们全都在服务于一个更崇高的目标——“构建一个更有意义的人生（building a more meaningful life）”。当代社会不断向年轻男性兜售“优化银行账户、刷低体脂率、在外拼命卷”的单薄信条，但数十年的长寿与幸福感研究一次次证明，真正决定一个男性能否健康老去的，绝不是银行存款或肌肉线条，而是他能否拥有健康的婚姻、能否与子女建立充满爱的亲密纽带。任何真正有价值的事情都充满艰辛，为人父母固然伴随着牺牲与衰老，但换来的深层归属与意义，足以重塑一个男人的整个人生。 ### [19:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=1165s) 育儿的显性代价与“隐形收益” 成为父母往往伴随着显而易见的牺牲。人们总是在谈论育儿的负面影响：严重的睡眠不足、无时无刻不在的焦虑，以及不得不把另一个生命的优先级置于自己之上的沉重感。这些代价是如此显眼——比如飞机上声嘶力竭哭闹的孩子与手足无措的父母，或超市里任性打滚发脾气的幼儿。相比之下，为人父母在心理、生物学与荷尔蒙层面带来的深远重塑，其积极面却是隐形的。这几乎像是一种“信仰”：外界必须说服你相信，那些无法预估的巨大奖赏最终会抵消摆在眼前的惨痛代价。 Dr. Darby Saxbe 对此表示认同。她指出，育儿的幸福往往发生在私密而细微的瞬间，例如看着孩子第一次发现新事物时亮起的脸庞，或者深夜依偎在一起时感受到的前所未有的亲密与超越自我的爱。人类天生渴望连接与照料他人，而养育孩子提供了一个在其他任何生活领域都极难复制的、大规模关怀他人的机会。 ```mermaid flowchart LR accTitle: 育儿体验的可见性对比 accDescr: 对比育儿过程中高度外显的代价与私密隐形的情感回报。 subgraph Visible["显性代价（容易被外界感知）"] V1["睡眠严重剥夺"] V2["公众场合崩溃与哭闹"] V3["个人自由受限与焦虑"] end subgraph Invisible["隐形收益（深层心理回报）"] I1["发现世界的纯粹喜悦"] I2["超越自我的深层联结"] I3["提供大规模照料的生命意义"] end Visible -.->|需要心理信仰去平衡| Invisible ``` --- ### [20:49](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=1249s) 母亲大脑的重塑与纵向实验室研究设计 当谈到从职场转向家庭、女性身份认同与生命意义的彻底重排时，Dr. Saxbe 揭示了母亲大脑在这一过程中发生的剧烈生理变化。从怀孕前到分娩后，母亲的大脑皮层容积大约会缩减 2.5%；相比之下，父亲的大脑也会出现类似模式的灰质缩减，但平均幅度仅约为 1%，且男性之间的个体差异显著更大。 为了精确捕捉这一神经与生理变化，Dr. Darby Saxbe 的实验室（NEST Lab）招募了一批处于孕期的初为父母的伴侣。研究设计的唯一硬性标准是双方必须同居，并计划在婴儿出生后继续同居，以确保捕捉到父亲在近距离接触新生儿时的真实变化。实验采用了极其详尽的纵向追踪测量： - **孕期测试（产前约 6 个月）：** 全面的问卷调研；采集血液、唾液与头发样本（用于检测皮质醇等长期荷尔蒙指标）；在摄像机前记录伴侣之间的冲突对话；对准父亲进行高精度的脑部结构扫描。 - **产后回访（产后约 6 个月）：** 伴侣再次回到实验室，重复血液、唾液、头发采样与父亲脑扫描；同时增加母乳样本与婴儿粪便样本采集；并让夫妻在镜头前再次进行冲突对话，观察其沟通模式跨越育儿阶段的演变。 --- ### [22:41](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=1361s) 孕期冲突对分娩复杂度的直接影响 研究团队设计了一种激发伴侣争论的实验机制：给双方各自发放一份涵盖亲密关系中常见争执焦点的清单，让他们独立勾选出自己与伴侣之间的“导火索议题”（hot button issues）。研究人员比对出双方公认的矛盾点后，将两人单独留在房间内，给他们 15 分钟时间开诚布公地当面解决该问题，并在单向玻璃或镜头后观察其互动模式。 | 评估维度 | 负向冲突行为（高风险） | 正向沟通/化解机制（保护性） | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **语言与行为特征** | 批评（Criticizing）、蔑视（Contempt）、筑墙/冷战拒绝沟通（Stonewalling） | 确认与共情（Validation，如表达“我理解你的意思，我懂你的处境”） | | **心理机制** | 情绪升级、进入敌对防御漩涡 | 卸掉争吵中的怒气与防备，使对方感到被倾听 | | **客观分娩后果** | 医院/助产中心病历显示**医学复杂性显著上升**（难产、并发症增多） | 分娩过程更为平稳顺利 | | **主观心理评估** | 产妇在产后主观评估分娩过程具有更高的压力与创伤感 | 产妇对分娩体验有更好的安全感与适应度 | 研究发现，孕期内伴侣间的争吵方式直接预测了几个月后分娩的顺利程度。从历史上看，分娩曾长期是由女性助产士和女性亲属主导的家庭事件；直到 19 世纪末转向医院体系后才出现男性医生接生；而父亲争取进入产房陪产，实际上是 20 世纪 60 至 70 年代才普及的新现象。正因为父亲陪产的历史较短，医学界过去很少将“伴侣关系”作为改善分娩体验的干预靶点。产妇在分娩时极度需要情感支撑，伴侣若深陷负向对抗模式，会直接加剧产妇的心理应激，从而在生理上引发更高的医学分娩风险。 Dr. Saxbe 强调，研究并非要求伴侣在孕期绝不争吵，暴露分歧与宣泄顾虑本身是有益的；关键在于避免蔑视与冷漠拒斥。其实验室研究生的最新研究发现，化解冲突的“核心秘诀”在于**情感确认（Validation）**——只需让对方感到“我听到你的声音、我站在你这边”，就能瞬间瓦解对抗情绪。 --- ### [27:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=1665s) 对“完美时机”的执念与生育推迟 讨论由此引申到当代年轻人对生育时机的普遍顾虑。许多育龄人群深陷一种等待“完美条件”的拖延心理：总觉得工作日程过于繁忙、财务状况不够稳妥，或者浪漫关系尚未磨合至无懈可击。这种对绝对确定性与安全感的苛求，正让越来越多人推迟甚至放弃步入人生的育儿阶段。然而，就像许多人在繁忙事业中开辟新项目一样，生活中或许根本不存在所谓完美的从容时刻，真正的适应往往源于主动在不确定性中建立秩序。 ### [28:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=1725s) 生育时机：从“人生基石”到“加冕顶峰”的认知偏差 Darby Saxbe 博士分享了自己读研时与导师的一段真实对话。当时她问导师：“我很想生孩子，你觉得最佳时机是什么时候？”导师听完大笑回答：“根本没有什么所谓的正确时机。你只管生，然后想办法搞定它；只要孩子生下来，你自然能找到出路。”这段话促使她在随后的几年内决定生育。她坦言，为人父母的过程固然艰难，但现实证明夫妻俩确实摸索出了解决之道。 当现代人过度追求在最完美的条件下生育时——必须拥有带特定卧室数量的房产、达到极高的财务与生活稳定度——其实陷入了一种认知误区。Saxbe 博士指出，过去人们普遍在年轻时生子，往往正是孩子的降临赋予了父母整合资源、努力拼搏的强大动力。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 生育观念与育儿模式的历史演变 accDescr: 对比传统观念中生子作为基石与合作育儿模式，以及现代观念中将生子作为成功顶峰及孤立育儿的困境。 subgraph Traditional["传统模式 (演化与历史视角)"] A["生育作为人生基石 (Cornerstone)"] --> B["合力培育 (Alloparenting)"] B --> C["年轻时在社区支持下养育并共同奋斗"] end subgraph Modern["现代模式 (当代困境)"] D["生育作为顶峰成就 (Capstone)"] --> E["孤立育儿与过度优化条件"] E --> F["错失最佳生物学繁衍窗口"] end ``` 这种心态演变的本质在于：过去生育被视作人生的“基石”（Cornerstone），先建立起家庭基础，再在其上构筑职业生涯与生活；如今人们却将生育当成人生的“顶峰成就”（Capstone），必须万事俱备、功成名就后才考虑要孩子。这种模式存在两大弊端： - **生物学规律的违背**：人体的繁衍机能无法无限等待，推迟生育很容易让人错失最佳的生理窗口期。 - **孤立育儿的压力**：人类演化为“合作抚育物种”（alloparenting / cooperative breeders），从远古狩猎采集时代起就是在社区共同体中抚育后代。现代人将育儿当成个人的单独责任，在缺乏慷慨的产假与陪产假、缺乏职业保护与育儿托育政策等社会支持的情况下，面对动荡的经济环境，许多人感到永远无法达到所谓的“完美条件”。 ### [31:04](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=1864s) 人口崩塌危机与育儿价值的重塑 主持人 Steven Bartlett 列举了一系列令人震惊的全球人口统计数据：2024 年发表在《柳叶刀》（*The Lancet*）上的一项标志性研究预测，到 2100 年，全球 97% 的国家和地区生育率将低到无法维持现有的人口规模。全球生育率已从 1950 年的每位女性平均生育 5 个孩子骤降至如今的 2.2 个。美国疾病控制与预防中心（CDC）和皮尤研究中心的数据显示，美国总和生育率跌至 1.6 的历史最低点，远低于 2.1 的人口替代率；2025 年全美出生人数再度下滑 1%，降至约 360 万婴儿，延续了自大衰退近二十年来的持续走低。此外，高收入国家生育率断崖式下跌，而部分低收入地区仍维持相对高位，预计到 2100 年，地球上每出生两个孩子，就有一个来自撒哈拉以南非洲。 面对这些剧烈转变，Saxbe 博士指出，20 世纪 60 年代盛行的“人口炸弹”（population bomb）理论过分强调全球人口过剩、倡导节育，而如今人类社会显然对此进行了“过度矫枉”。少子化导致的“倒金字塔年龄结构”（inverse age curve）将使老年人口远超年轻人口，造成严重的看护短缺、劳动力匮乏、创新力流失以及经济不可持续。 针对现代社会如何让抚育后代重具吸引力，Saxbe 博士与 Steven Bartlett 展开了深入探讨： - **护理与关怀的文化重塑**：现代文化将生育描绘成一件吃力不讨好的负累，必须提高“看护与照料”（care）在社会价值观中的地位。Saxbe 博士强调，父亲参与育儿研究的意义，正是为了打破偏见，让人们看到男性也能成为优秀的抚育者，从而释放整个社会对关护价值的认可。 - **人生意义的根本转向**：正如 Steven 提到他兄长经历的转变——从原本“如何赚最多的钱”的事物性、交易性思维，转变为“孩子对我最重要，我怎样才能多花时间陪伴他们”。这种从金钱到人际联结的价值转变，若在大规模层面展开，能让整个社会更具同理心与健康活力。 - **面对生育议题的客观界线**：Steven 强调，并非所有人都在生理上有能力生育，也不是每个人在自身境况下都想或应该要孩子；但在他个人的真实感受中，哪怕看到仅比自己大一岁的哥哥多出了几根白发，他依然由衷地感到“羡慕”。过去两周哥哥的孩子寄住在家里，观察孩子们对世界无休止的好奇心与学习探索，带给人的深度充实感与人生意义，是无休止地“刷手机屏幕”完全无法比拟的。 ### [35:33](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2133s) 赞助商插播：Shopify 与 Pipedrive 商业赋能 在节目间歇，主持人 Steven Bartlett 带来了赞助商的推介： - **Shopify 独立建站与电商平台**：过去自主创业风险巨大，而如今只要有好想法就应付诸实践。Shopify 平台集成了拖拽式编辑器、AI 助手与深度数据分析功能，无需专业技术背景即可轻松上手；其高效的结账系统能够记忆买家信息，减少新创初期的摩擦与阻碍，助力创业者提升转化率。 - **Pipedrive 销售 CRM 系统**：不论是商业还是个人成长，持续性（consistency）具有强大的复利效应。许多成长型团队在规模扩大后出现商机跟进脱节、线索变冷的情况，这并非员工能力问题，而是缺乏系统支持。Pipedrive 能够实时清晰呈现销售漏斗中的每一笔交易及其推进节点，已有超过 10 万家公司使用该系统维持销售的一致性与可控性。 ### [37:54](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2274s) 抚育孩子对大脑晚期健康的神经保护作用 Steven Bartlett 将话题引回神经科学，询问成为父母是否能够在大脑防护层面带来特殊改变。Saxbe 博士确认了这一前沿科学成果：最新涌现的大量研究表明，为人父母的经历在生命晚期具有显著的“神经保护作用”（neuroprotective）。生育和养育孩子重塑了大脑，并可能对晚年的大脑认知与抗衰老机制产生长远的积极影响。 ### [38:15](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2295s) 养育孩子与“大脑减龄”：短期消耗与长远保护 Dr. Darby Saxbe 谈到了来自英国生物样本库（UK Biobank）的大规模神经影像学数据。该数据库汇总了成千上万名五六十岁中老年人群的大脑扫描结果。研究人员利用机器学习算法校正生理年龄，并根据大脑扫描图谱评估实际的“大脑年龄”（Brain Age）。结果令人意外：在男性和女性群体中，报告养育过更多孩子的个体，普遍呈现出更为年轻化的大脑特征标记。这种大脑减龄的保护效应在养育两到三个孩子时达到峰值，之后进入平台期——养育六个孩子并不会比养育两三个带来更多额外增益。这项研究有力地证明，为人父母期间对“社交大脑”（Social Brain）与“共情大脑”（Empathetic Brain）的持续激活与锻炼，极大地增强了中老年时期的神经可塑性与认知功能。 Steven Bartlett 对此深感诧异，直言大众普遍认为养娃充满压力、剥夺睡眠，理论上应该损害大脑，而非提供神经保护。Dr. Saxbe 解释道，理解这一现象的关键在于区分“短期代价”与“长期回报”。大量的即时心理学调研显示，家有幼童的父母在当下的时刻幸福感往往偏低，常感到疲惫不堪、压力巨大、情绪紧绷，甚至伴随大脑灰质和激素的剧烈动荡。然而，放眼晚年生活，这些曾经的父母却报告出显著更高的生命充实感与幸福感。养育虽是一项在当下极其消耗体能、伴随孤独感且并不轻松的“苦差事”，但它磨砺了理解他人的能力，构建起强大的社会联结，而这种深度整合的社会关系正是晚年认知与情感的稳固“黏合剂”。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 育儿对大脑生命周期的双重影响 accDescr: 展现育儿初期的高压力与长期神经认知保护之间的转化机制 subgraph ShortTerm ["短期抚育阶段（消耗期）"] A["睡眠剥夺与身心重负"] B["即时幸福感下降"] C["大脑与内分泌重塑"] end subgraph LongTerm ["长期认知回报（保护期）"] D["神经可塑性与共情网络提升"] E["社会整合度与意义感增加"] F["UK Biobank：大脑表观年龄更年轻"] end ShortTerm -->|"持续进行认知与社交练习"| LongTerm ``` - **英国生物样本库发现**：校正实际生理年龄后，抚养过孩子的 50-60 岁成年人大脑呈现更年轻的结构特征。 - **最佳收益区间**：养育 2 至 3 个孩子时保护效果最为明显，更多数量的孩子不再呈现线性增长的益处。 - **代偿逻辑**：育儿期间的高强度社交互动犹如长期心智训练，有效抵御了晚年的神经退行性衰退。 --- ### [40:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2413s) 社交认知与体能锻炼：父亲的打闹游戏与情绪调节训练 为了探究育儿究竟如何保护大脑，Steven Bartlett 分享了自己陪伴三个孩子的亲身体验：孩子们缠着他玩了足足 7 个小时的捉迷藏，还轮番要求被抱起、抛高；由于大女儿已经 8 岁、体型偏大很难抱动，另外两个孩子被抱起后她又会吃醋抗议，搞得像一场高强度的体能负荷训练。Dr. Saxbe 将父母的日常互动生动地比喻为“社交认知的数独游戏”（Sudoku for your social cognition）。普通人做填字游戏锻炼的是词汇检索，而与孩子相处则是在实时解读他人的心智模式、洞察意图、沟通调停并做出敏感反馈。加之孩子充满活力，这种全天候的应对不仅是社交心智的严苛训练，更是一场不折不扣的全身体能锻炼。 研究显示，父亲在亲子互动中尤其偏好高体力、高动态的粗野打闹（Rough-and-tumble play）。Steven Bartlett 笑称自己的核心任务仿佛就是把孩子扔向空中抛得越高越好；Dr. Saxbe 也幽默地附和，自己的丈夫也是在当了父亲、整天抛举孩子之后，平生第一次不得不去看整骨医生。然而，这种充满张力的互动对儿童发育至关重要： - **边界探索与风险承受**：被高高抛向空中时的瞬间恐惧，与被安全接住那一刻的如释重负，是孩子在微尺度上反复练习情绪调节的过程。 - **构建内在安全感**：这种早期微型应激体验，能帮助儿童在日后学校等陌生的复杂环境中建立起更强大的自信心与心理弹性。 --- ### [42:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2531s) 催产素的神经保护机制：从亲密关系到阿尔茨海默病预防 谈及生养孩子对神经的物理保护机制，Steven Bartlett 结合此前对哈佛大学成人发展研究（Harvard Study of Adult Development）负责人 Robert Waldinger 的访谈指出，这项历时 80 余年的里程碑式研究证明，**高质量的亲密关系是预测寿命与晚年健康的最关键指标**。作为亲密联结的关键神经肽，催产素（Oxytocin）在为人父母的过程中大量释放，并在抗衰老中扮演着直接的生物学护盾角色。Dr. Saxbe 赞同这一观点，指出初为人父母时大脑与内分泌系统的深刻重组，本质上就是为了促成更敏锐、更具适应性的照料反应，这一演化机制跨越了日常亲子关系，并辐射至其他生活领域。 Steven 现场列举了多项神经科学文献中催产素对大脑的具体生物学保护作用： - **抑制脑内炎症反应**：催产素能主动下调中枢神经系统中促炎细胞因子（Pro-inflammatory cytokines）的表达，调节小胶质细胞等免疫细胞，显著减轻神经毒性炎症反应。 - **增强突触可塑性与认知**：在衰老小鼠模型中，长期给予催产素治疗可同步提升海马体等脑区的突触可塑性，直接改善老龄个体的空间记忆与学习能力。 - **抵御阿尔茨海默病病理沉积**：在阿尔茨海默病动物模型中，催产素被证实可显著减弱淀粉样蛋白-β（Amyloid-beta）斑块的神经毒性，而该毒性蛋白聚集正是该疾病的标志性病理特征。 Dr. Saxbe 补充道，她自己的实验室在研究中发现，父亲进行**本体感受性抚触**（Proprioceptive touch）——即前述将婴儿托起、在三维空间中摆动与互动的高强度肢体接触——在随后的血检中会检测到更高浓度的外周催产素水平。她进一步强调，育儿实践中所习得的心智技能具有跨领域迁移价值：“如果你能熟练安抚一个正在大发脾气的两岁幼儿，你在职场上大概率会成为极其优秀的团队管理者；如果你能妥善协调三个同时争宠的孩子，你在亲密伴侣关系中必然也是更出色的冲突解决专家。” --- ### [45:22](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2722s) 托儿所争议与共同抚养：破除“唯母论”的育儿误区 在节目的后半段，Steven Bartlett 提到了此前做客节目的心理学家 Erica Komisar 所持的争议性观点——Komisar 强烈反对将 3 岁以下婴幼童送入日托所（Daycare），坚称这会导致深层的分离创伤，并使皮质醇水平飙升至危险区间。对此，Dr. Saxbe 明确表达了委婉反对（"I politely disagree"）。她坦言自己的两个孩子都是在日托所健康成长且适应良好，并从演化人类学视角提出了**共同抚养**（Alloparenting）理论： | 抚育模型对比 | 传统演化模型（Alloparenting 共同抚养） | 现代孤立核心家庭模型 | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **照料形式** | 族群共同分担育儿职责、部落协作多对多照顾 | 单一父母在封闭郊区居所中独力带娃 | | **演化历史** | 伴随人类漫长演化历程的主流养育生态 | 在整个人类历史尺度上极为罕见且异常（Weird） | | **依恋对象** | 多元且稳固：母亲、父亲、家族长辈与照护者 | 极端聚焦于母亲单一主体 | | **亲子压力** | 压力由社群缓冲，父母心理健康更有保障 | 父母孤立无援极易精疲力竭，引发溢出性亲职压力 | Dr. Saxbe 强调，将集体托育与儿童心理创伤完全画上等号是过度夸大的。虽然 18 个月以内的极幼婴儿更依赖一对一、高度稳定的核心依恋对象，但这个角色绝不仅限于母亲，父亲乃至专业看护人员同样能与婴儿建立起极其坚固安全的依恋纽带。认为“母亲必须在婴儿生命早期的每分每秒都必须亲自在场”的苛求，不仅在现代社会不可持续，更直接加剧了父母的焦虑与倦怠——而父母长期处于重压之下，对儿童身心健康的危害远大于托育本身。她指出，唯有构建支持性的互助与托育体系，才能真正扭转当下育儿成本高企与生育率持续低迷的困局。 ### [47:12](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2832s) 默认抚养人与育儿角色的时间错位 在探讨早期育儿支持时，Dr. Darby Saxbe 指出，如果社会真的不希望幼童过早进入托儿机构，就必须提供普惠性的带薪育儿假（Universal Paid Parental Leave）作为支撑；然而在美国，大多数父母根本无法享受这项福利。现实的缺位使得许多母亲陷入焦虑：育儿专家口中“唯一正确”的抚养方式，与现实生活条件构成了巨大的撕裂。 当被问及在孩子出生后的头一到三年中，父母双方的角色是否存在天然的分工差异时，Dr. Saxbe 援引了学者 Richard Reeves（其长期致力于男性气质与男性成长研究）的观点。Reeves 甚至提出，父亲的陪产假应该允许保留并延期使用，直至孩子年满 18 岁。这是因为许多父亲发现，自己与孩子建立最深厚、最默契关系的阶段往往出现在儿童期晚期甚至青春期——比如共同旅行、教孩子开车等场景。父亲的育儿价值会在孩子成长轨迹的不同节点以不同方式显现。 相比之下，生命早期的婴儿阶段确实对母亲更有倾斜性，尤其是母乳喂养创造了一种几乎不可替代的生理连接。即便可以通过吸奶器由父亲代劳喂奶，许多新手父亲依然会感受到挫败感。Dr. Saxbe 分析道，母亲拥有巨大的“生理抢跑优势”（biological head start）：长达十个月的孕期、天然的依恋联结，以及母乳这种能够迅速安抚婴儿的“神奇配方”。这让许多新手父亲在头一两年感到手足无措，迷茫于“我到底该做什么”。父亲的大脑与角色往往需要更长时间来“启动上线”（come online），而在等待指令的过程中，母亲便不可避免地被推成了家庭中的“默认抚养人”（default parent）。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 早期育儿角色错位 accDescr: 展示母亲生理抢跑优势与父亲角色延迟上线的动态关系 subgraph MotherSide ["母亲侧 (生理抢跑优势)"] M1["孕期与分娩建立早期连接"] M2["母乳喂养带来安抚'超能力'"] M3["迅速确立核心照料地位"] M1 --> M2 --> M3 end subgraph FatherSide ["父亲侧 (适应与滞后)"] F1["缺乏直接的生理孕育体验"] F2["早期角色迷茫与心理启动滞后"] F3["等待指令，沦为辅助角色"] F1 --> F2 --> F3 end M3 --> Outcome["母亲成为'默认抚养人' (Default Parent)"] F3 --> Outcome ``` --- ### [49:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2970s) 母职把关与“武器化无能”的恶性循环 当主持人问及她在新书巡讲期间接触大量父母时发现的核心争论焦点是什么，Dr. Saxbe 提到她在一次混合夫妻读书会上引发的激烈共鸣：母职把关（Maternal Gatekeeping）与武器化无能（Weaponized Incompetence，又称丈夫式装病怠工 husbandly malingering）形成的双向推拉死循环。 - **母职把关（Maternal Gatekeeping）**：指母亲有意或无意地设置障碍，阻碍父亲充分参与育儿。典型表现如孩子一哭闹，母亲便立刻夺过孩子说“给我吧，我知道怎么弄”。长此以往，母亲化身为家庭育儿的绝对权威，而父亲则沦为笨手笨脚、可有可无的附庸。父亲会感到自己的付出不被认可，缺乏独立带娃的空间，其根源往往是母亲对伴侣照护能力的不信任。 - **武器化无能（Weaponized Incompetence）**：作为对应面，许多在职场上极具能力的男性（例如能井井有条管理复杂项目、梳理繁复工作流的项目经理），一回到家面对育儿便瞬间退化。读书会上的一位母亲分享了极具代表性的案例：孩子出生仅两天，她出门散步十分钟，家中突发“纸尿裤喷射式炸屎”（diaper blowout），丈夫立刻打电话惊慌求助；妻子只能哭笑不得地回应：“我当妈也才两天，和你时间一模一样，你自己想办法拿湿巾擦！”后来这位负责给孩子准备午餐的丈夫甚至还会问出“除了鸡块还能给孩子带什么”，完全想不起切点牛油果或水果。 这种双向互动极易演化为互相埋怨：母亲筋疲力尽地指责父亲“装傻甩锅”，父亲则委屈地抱怨妻子掌控一切、让自己毫无施展空间。Dr. Saxbe 强调，夫妻双方必须在孩子出生前就做好坦诚沟通，明确分工并建立互信，让双方在育儿中都拥有平等的掌控权与试错空间。 --- ### [52:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3144s) 孩子降生后的亲密关系骤降与分化 孩子出生后伴侣间的亲密关系受损是育儿科学中最稳固的研究结论之一。Dr. Saxbe 明确指出，在向父母过渡的研究中，伴侣关系满意度出现明显滑坡（Relationship Dip）几乎是必然现象。将两个原本享受二人世界的成年人置于严重剥夺睡眠的极端环境下，同时叠加繁重的照护重担与昼夜不停的啼哭，分工不均和精力耗竭必然催生摩擦。 量化研究证实，产后伴侣的关系质量与性生活满意度均呈现统计学意义上的显著下降。不仅是因为床上或床边多了一个随时需要关注的婴儿，母亲身体在经历顺产撕裂缝针或剖腹产手术后，本身也需要漫长的生理创伤修复期。 对于这种关系满意度是否会随时间恢复至产前水平，Dr. Saxbe 指出夫妻之间的轨迹存在巨大分化： - **持续下滑型**：一部分夫妻的关系质量持续走低，最终走向感情破裂与婚姻解体。 - **深化升华型**：另一部分夫妻在共同经历育儿考验后，反而建立了更深层次、更丰满的联结。Dr. Saxbe 风趣地拿自己的婚姻打比方：“我如今非常感激我丈夫，因为我曾亲眼目睹他如何与我们那些像‘恐怖分子’一样的幼童进行谈判。”夫妻能否挺过这道坎，完全取决于他们能否携手扛过最初几年的育儿阵痛。 --- ### [54:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3287s) 隐秘的风暴：男性产后抑郁 针对主持人提出的“男性也会经历产后抑郁”这一反常识观点，Dr. Saxbe 做出了深入的病理与流行病学解释。从医学定义来看，“产后”（Postpartum）仅指孩子出生后的这一时间区间，并非专属分娩者的专利；如果部分母亲更倾向于使用“围产期抑郁”（Perinatal Depression）来避免概念混淆，在学术上同样完全成立。 流行病学数据显示，**新手父亲的抑郁发病率大约是普通未生育男性的两倍**。尽管新手父亲的整体抑郁率仍低于新手母亲，但关注男性心理健康绝非与女性争夺话语权的“零和博弈”。 产后阶段男女所承受的心理健康危机往往是由多重负荷叠加引发的“完美风暴”： - **激素与生理动荡**：体内激素水平的剧烈波动，叠加长期的严重睡眠剥夺。 - **身份与生活断裂**：从独立个体到抚养者的身份重构，职场定位与社交圈层的割裂。 - **关系与原生家庭创伤**：伴侣间日益激化的摩擦冲突，以及在照料婴儿时被重新唤醒的、关于自身童年抚养经历的未愈创伤。 - **照护的枯燥与孤立**：日复一日照顾脆弱婴儿的高重复性、高度封闭与孤立无援的照护状态。 这一系列复合压力最终导致了新手父亲群体中高发的心理健康隐患。 ### [57:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3431s) 皮质醇同步与压力传染：伴侣间激素共振是否预示婚姻危机 在探讨育儿第一年是否存在某种生物学层面的“离婚预测指标”时，Dr. Darby Saxbe 分享了其实验室关于伴侣间皮质醇相互关联的研究。传统直觉往往认为，如果夫妻双方的激素水平步调一致、高度同步，可能意味着彼此心意相通、关系更融洽；然而实验结果却恰恰相反——那些皮质醇水平呈现高度强相关联动的伴侣，实际报告的婚姻满意度反而更低。Saxbe 解释称，背后的核心逻辑在于“压力传染”：当伴侣中的一方陷入极度焦虑或压力超负荷时，对方如果也立刻陷入完全相同的生理压力状态，就会形成压力放大回路；相反，此时人们真正需要的是一个能够调谐、缓冲并帮助自己恢复平静的调节者，而不是一个放大器。 当然，学界也有其他实验室在特定情境下得出了不同发现。例如在从孕期向产后过渡的阶段，夫妻间适度的皮质醇同步有时会呈现正面效应。但脱离具体生育转换节点的大多数日常关系中，完全同频的生理压力往往意味着双方缺乏互相接纳与平抑负面情绪的“安全气囊”，使压力在两人之间无休止地反弹与升级。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 伴侣压力互动模式对比 accDescr: 对比压力传染导致的恶性循环与情绪调节带来的稳定回路 subgraph Contagion["压力共振模式（皮质醇高度同步）"] A1["一方遭遇外部压力"] --> B1["皮质醇水平飙升"] B1 --> C1["另一方生理同步感染"] C1 --> D1["双向放大焦虑与冲突"] D1 --> E1["婚姻满意度下降"] end subgraph Regulation["互补调节模式（情绪缓冲与调制）"] A2["一方遭遇外部压力"] --> B2["产生情绪波动与警报"] B2 --> C2["伴侣保持前额叶冷静"] C2 --> D2["提供安抚与安全感支持"] D2 --> E2["平抑压力、促进情感联结"] end ``` ### [58:25](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3505s) 情绪警报器与理性稳定器：互补型伴侣的长久相处之道 Steven Bartlett 结合自身与未婚妻 Melanie 的相处经验展开了深入探讨。他提到 Melanie 在情绪上较为敏感多变，而自己则扮演着类似“前额叶皮层”的声音与锚定物，负责将整体氛围拉回到平稳状态。Steven 认为这种差异并非缺陷，反而具有强大的生存与关系价值——Melanie 就像一个极其敏锐的“威胁探测器”，能够第一时间捕捉到两人关系中细微的疏离或环境中的潜在风险；而 Steven 相对迟钝却极度稳定的神经系统，则能为 Melanie 提供依靠，帮助她在焦虑时重返宁静。Steven 甚至提到在他们日常佩戴的 Whoop 手环压力监测曲线上，两人呈现出截然不同的图谱：一人波澜起伏，一人平稳如常。 Dr. Saxbe 针对这种“异性相吸”的动态指出，人们在潜意识里往往会被那些能弥补自身盲区、拓展世界观的人所吸引；如果两个极度动荡的人在一起，生活会沦为彻底的混乱，而如果两个极度波澜不惊的人在一起，日子又难免索然无味。然而 Saxbe 也援引伴侣治疗师的观点提出了警示：在关系甜蜜时将彼此吸引的特质，往往也是关系破裂时导致两极分化的元凶。如果一人永远被定型为“情绪化的一方”，另一人永远被迫扮演“冷若冰霜的理性人”，角色固化就会将两人撕裂；理想的长期状态是双方在互动中“向中间相遇”——理性的一方变得更有共情力与情感敏感度，而敏感的一方则学会建立更强大的内心稳定性。 ### [01:01:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3671s) 人类为何隐藏排卵期：进化博弈与生育的天然屏障 当话题转向备孕与冷冻胚胎时，Steven 坦白自己早前曾抱有天真的想法，以为到了三十岁出头，只要在女性排卵期同房就能自然受孕，但实际过程远比想象中复杂。Saxbe 指出，这正是她在其著作中讨论“父亲身份不确定性”与人类进化机制的核心课题：与多数灵长类及其他哺乳动物在发情期展现鲜明视觉（如体色变化）、行为（如求偶舞蹈）或气味线索不同，人类进化出了极其独特的“隐蔽排卵”（Concealed Ovulation）机制。 这种生理机制在人类演化史上起到了至关重要的适应性作用： - **促进长期配偶结合（Pair Bonding）：** 由于男性无法精准锁定具体的某一天受孕后便拍拍屁股走人，若想确保繁衍后代，就必须投入大量时间追求并长期陪伴同一名女性，从而奠定了人类稳定的一夫一妻协作模式。 - **平抑同性竞争与内部攻击：** 隐蔽的受孕窗口降低了女性群体内部的敌意与针对性攻击；如果排卵期显而易见，处于生育高峰的个体极易成为群体内竞争对手铲除的目标。 - **扩大对下一代的利他性投资：** 适度的父权不确定性降低了杀婴风险，并让整个群体中的成年人倾向于对所有新生儿保有更多的利他关怀与共同养育动机。 ### [01:03:26](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3806s) 提高受孕几率的心身调适与科学建议 对于如何提高受孕几率，Steven 询问降低压力与营造安全感是否真正具有科学依据。Saxbe 明确证实，长期的身心压力确实会干扰内分泌系统并抑制受孕能力。不过她也幽默而体贴地指出，对那些正在为受孕困扰的夫妻直接说“别紧张、放轻松”，往往是“最徒劳且最容易让人抓狂的安慰”，因为受孕本身的艰难就已经成为了最大的压力源。 科学备孕需要将注意力放在可控的客观环境与身心支持上，包括为伴侣提供平静且无压迫感的生活空间、优化营养摄入与生活作息。但与此同时，夫妻双方也必须建立合理的心理预期，认识到受孕过程中有相当大比例的生物学因素不受主观意志控制；当自然尝试遇到阻碍时，积极寻求现代医学干预（如辅助生殖技术与胚胎冷冻）是非常明智且切实的途径。 ### [01:04:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3863s) 致所有新手父亲的核心法则：优秀父亲是后天铸就的 针对即将踏入育儿旅程的新手父亲，Dr. Saxbe 给出了其著作中最核心的科学洞见：“优秀的父亲是后天塑造出来的，而不是天生的。”（"Great fathers are made not born."）许多男性在面对新生命降临时常会感到恐慌，怀疑自己缺乏某种天生的“父性本能”或不具备成为合格父亲的品质。然而现代神经科学表明，大脑具备终生重塑的能力： - **时间与精力的实操投入：** 父亲的神经重塑与激素调节并不会凭空发生，而是完全建立在亲身换尿布、安抚哭闹、陪伴入睡等微小的育儿实践中；你投入的关怀和练习越多，你的身体与大脑就越会被重塑为对婴儿信号高度敏锐的“父亲大脑”。 - **接纳脆弱，给予自己宽容空间：** 初为人父的角色转换充满未知与生理剥夺，父亲必须学会在适应过程中“放过自己”，不必强求立刻成为完美家长。 - **在专业深耕中收获意义：** 随着你在养育自己孩子这件事上逐渐成为不可替代的专家，育儿不仅不会剥夺你的人生价值，反而会带来深刻的心理奖赏，促使你重新校准人生优先事项，为生命注入前所未有的充实感与厚重感。 ### [01:05:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3911s) 商业赞助：早期初创企业的团队招募误区 在深入下一阶段育儿分工前，节目穿插了商业赞助环节。Steven Bartlett 以连续创业者的视角指出，许多初创企业创始人常常误以为公司面临的最大威胁是产品不够完美，但实际上，小团队最大的隐形杀手往往是在早期招聘了错误的人选。一个不称职的员工不仅会拖累团队的增长势头，还会迅速侵蚀初创公司的企业文化。在时间极其有限的情况下，盲目为了填补空缺而仓促招聘最终会付出高昂代价，因此借助如 LinkedIn 及其专业工具高效、精准地匹配顶尖人才，是避免增长停滞的关键策略。 ### [01:05:48](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3948s) 招聘工具赞助与播客互动 节目在进入正题前穿插了一段赞助口播。Steven Bartlett 介绍了 LinkedIn 招聘解决方案如何借助 AI 工具优化雇主从起草岗位描述、筛选候选人到初步视频面试的全流程。数据显示，近 60% 使用该工具的招聘主管在一周内就能锁定合适的面试候选人。随后，Steven 幽默地提醒屏幕前的听众检查订阅状态：如果按钮显示“已订阅”（Subscribed），说明你已加入；若仍显示“订阅”（Subscriber），不妨顺手点击一下，因为后台数据显示很多忠实观众常常忘记点按订阅，而每一次支持对节目的持续制作都至关重要。 ### [01:06:28](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3988s) 育儿分工预期与“我们”心态的幸福感效应 Dr. Darby Saxbe 分享了其实验室中一项极具启发性的追踪研究：关于准父母如何规划新生儿照料分工。研究团队设计了一套名为“谁做什么”（Who Does What）的问卷，列出换尿布、冲奶粉喂奶等 10 项常见的育婴任务，让夫妻双方在滑块量表上分别标记产后母亲和父亲各自承担的比例。六个月后，研究人员将这些父母请回实验室重新填写量表。结果发现，夫妻双方产前的预测普遍偏离了现实——几乎每一对夫妻在产前都高估了父亲实际会承担的育儿份额。Saxbe 博士指出，这并不意味着父亲们偷懒或心怀恶意，而是受现实客观因素制约：母亲往往享有更长的产假，或者因为母乳喂养而不得不花更多时间与婴儿绑定。 值得注意的是，数据揭示了一个违背直觉的心理现象：产后实际承担更多育儿工作的父亲，其伴侣关系的满意度反而显著更高。此外，研究人员还细致分析了准父母在讨论育婴分工时的言语特征，特别统计了人称代词“我们”（we）与“我”（I）的使用频次。统计分析表明（在控制了产前原有关联满意度后），展现出更多“我们感”（weness）、更倾向于使用第一人称复数的准父亲，在产后的婚姻满意度明显高于他人。许多人潜意识里认为“伴侣多干活、自己坐享其成”是更划算的策略，但科学事实证明，积极投入育儿协作、主动承担琐碎劳作的父亲，内心体验到的幸福感要丰满得多。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 产前育儿分工预期与产后心理效应 accDescr: 展示产前任务分工问卷调查如何经过现实调节，并最终影响父亲的心理满意度 subgraph Prenatal ["产前规划阶段"] A["问卷评估：10 项婴儿照料任务"] --> B["普遍高估父亲产后参与度"] C["语言分析：使用代词 '我们' (We-ness)"] end subgraph Reality ["现实调节变量"] B --> D["产假时长差异"] B --> E["母乳喂养需求绑定"] end subgraph Postnatal ["产后 6 个月追踪结果"] D & E --> F["父亲实际照料量少于预期"] F --> G["多承担照料的父亲关系满意度更高"] C --> H["高'我们感'显著正向预测产后幸福感"] end ``` ### [01:08:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=4112s) 给准父亲的系统性备育建议：沟通与支持网络 Steven 坦言如果一切顺利，自己将在次年升级成为父亲，他特意在面前的备忘录上写下“给 Steven 的建议”，恳请 Saxbe 博士结合所有实证研究给出针对产前、产中、产后的实操指南。Saxbe 博士给出的首要建议是：充分把握婴儿出生前的宝贵窗口期，打磨伴侣间的沟通模式。很多年轻夫妻抱有“船到桥头自然直”（wing it）的侥幸心理，但这往往是产后沮丧崩溃的导火索——母亲会觉得孤立无援、独自扛下所有，父亲则会感到被育儿事务彻底边缘化。双方应当提前就育儿责任拆解、大家庭关系介入、宗教信仰培养及教育理念等深层价值观展开坦诚沟通，提前排除未来的矛盾隐患。 第二项关键建议是提前搭建个人与家庭的社会支持网络。在现代社会中，许多男性的首要甚至唯一的情感倾诉对象就是自己的伴侣。然而，一旦孩子降生，母亲的精力和身心会被新生儿全面占据，无暇顾及伴侣的情感需求，此时父亲极易陷入被冷落与孤立的失落中。抑郁症研究表明，稳固的社会支持网络是最强有力的心理缓冲垫。Steven 随即指出，当今快节奏的全球化生活加剧了这种困境：人们背井离乡挤在昂贵狭小的高楼出租屋里，四壁萧然、孤立无援，连自身温饱都勉强维持，这也正是许多当代年轻人推迟或放弃生育的理性根源。Saxbe 博士深表认同，并强调正因如此，准父母更需要主动在邻里、其他准父母群体中打破孤立。虽然母亲拥有丰富的社会机制（如母乳互助群、背巾交流小组、地方妈妈俱乐部），但专属于男性的社群也在兴起，例如全美多地建立的“推车奶爸社交俱乐部”（Daddy Stroller Social Club），让新手父亲们推着婴儿车结伴散步，在日常互动中获取彼此的情感支撑。 ### [01:12:06](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=4326s) 睡眠卫生、身心备战与日常联结契机 谈及产后的具体生活管理，Saxbe 博士指出必须全力守护睡眠，并将备育视作“跑马拉松”一样的身心系统工程： - **确立前置的睡眠卫生（Sleep Hygiene）**：虽然“孩子睡你就睡”是常人熟知的建议，但现实中父母的作息往往支离破碎。建立牢固的睡前卫生习惯是抵御混乱的基础，例如睡前远离电子屏幕、调暗室内光线、调整最佳室温。Steven 补充道，身心俱疲和严重缺眠往往会诱发“多巴胺渴望”，驱使人摄入不健康的高糖高脂食物，进而陷入恶性循环；提前建立健康的生活作息是抵御这种消耗战的唯一防线。 - **牢牢抓住每一个琐碎的亲子联结机会**：许多新手父亲潜意识里对换尿布避之不及，觉得既脏又烦，但换尿布实际上是与婴儿进行眼神对视（eye contact）、近距离情感交流的黄金时刻。父亲应当积极涉入所有的照料环节，探索属于自己的育儿节奏，越是深入参与，越能建立对孩子的熟悉感与为人父的信心。 - **宽容对待自己（Give yourself grace）**：坦然承认育儿的艰辛与不易，放下完美主义苛求，给自己和伴侣留出喘息与适应的心理空间。 ### [01:13:57](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=4437s) 守护伴侣关系、母职蜕变与新生儿期的相处之道 Steven 指出，之前的建议清单中似乎少了一项至关重要的内容——如何努力维持并守护与未婚妻之间的亲密关系。Dr. Darby Saxbe 强烈赞同，并强调这正是夫妻双方在孩子出生前就必须着手做的事情：提前筑牢沟通基础，坦诚面对并展开那些艰难的对话。 当谈及孩子出生后的“约会之夜”（date night）时，Saxbe 坦言这往往是新手父母最先放弃的事情。但她带来了一个宽慰人心的实用小贴士：新生儿其实有一个巨大的优势，就是他们几乎可以在任何地方入睡。在她自己的孩子还小时，她和丈夫经常把婴儿放在安全提篮里，带去高级餐厅吃饭。那其实是他们随后几年里最后能享受这种二人兼顾外出用餐的时光，因为一旦孩子学会走路，便不再那么好“便携携带”了。因此，新晋父母应当充分利用宝宝早期的这一特点，多外出走走甚至短途旅行。 随后 Steven 追问，如果此时坐在这里接受建议的是他的未婚妻，Saxbe 会给出什么不同的指导。Saxbe 解释道，“给自己宽容度与恩慈”的原则在母亲身上需要加倍执行。不仅丈夫要明白妻子正在经历巨大的心理动荡，妻子也要理解丈夫的压力。 Saxbe 引入了“母职蜕变”（matrescence）与“父职蜕变”（patrescence）的概念，用来描述成为父母的过程如何彻底重塑一个人的优先事项和自我认同。在剧烈的转变期中，彼此坚守与陪伴是根本： - 父亲可能会因为婴儿占据了伴侣全部的注意力而产生嫉妒与被冷落感。 - 母亲则常常因为父亲做得不够多、不够主动而深感沮丧。 - 这些潜在的矛盾爆发点很容易导致夫妻渐行渐远，因此双方必须在孩子出生前就充分沟通，做好心理预期。 --- ### [01:16:02](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=4562s) “老爸身材”（Dad Bod）的演化科学与独特吸引力 当被问及访谈至今尚未提及却极其重要的话题时，Saxbe 兴致盎然地提出了“老爸身材”（Dad Bod）。在大众流行文化中，人们常常拿荷马·辛普森（Homer Simpson）开玩笑，但无论是动物研究还是人类实验，都普遍观察到雄性在成为父亲后往往会出现体重增长。 Steven 猜测这是否仅仅是皮质醇升高和睡眠匮乏所致。Saxbe 指出，这实际上是多种因素共同构成的“完美风暴”：催乳素（prolactin）水平的上升、长期严重缺眠、体力活动模式的改变，以及压力下饮食结构的变化。她打趣回忆，在孩子刚出生的日子里，她和丈夫几乎每天都在靠吃 Trader Joe's 的花生酱脆饼（peanut butter pretzels）度日。 更惊人的是，在动物模型中，雄性甚至在幼崽出生前就会发生生理变化。Saxbe 详细介绍了一项关于绢毛猴（tamarin monkeys）的经典实验： ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 雄性绢毛猴体重变化对照实验 accDescr: 对比伴侣怀孕的雄性绢毛猴与对照组，在严格控制相同食量下，准爸爸猴体重显著增加，表明体重增加是适应性生理演化。 subgraph Experiment["对照实验设计（严格标准化相同饮食）"] A["实验组：伴侣正在孕期的准爸爸猴"] B["对照组：伴侣未怀孕的普通雄猴"] end subgraph PhysiologicalOutcome["生理变化结果"] C["体重显著增加<br/>（幼崽尚未出生前即发生）"] D["体重维持基线状态"] end subgraph EvolutionaryTheory["演化适应机制"] E["体格更庞大威慑情敌与潜在威胁"] F["储存脂肪储备以抵御食物匮乏与育儿消耗"] end A --> C B --> D C --> E C --> F ``` 从演化角度来看，这种体重储备是具有适应性的：更大的体魄不仅能对外来对手形成震慑，在食物匮乏的环境中也是对抗育儿消耗的重要能量缓冲。尽管在充斥高热量食物的现代环境中，这种生理倾向可能转化为心血管和代谢风险，但它在择偶心理上却有着出人意料的正面效应。 Saxbe 在书中提到，针对单身女性的调查显示，在向她们展示一系列不同男性体型时，带有轻微脂肪、犹如“轻度雪花纹理躯干”（lightly marbled male torso）的老爸身材居然最受青睐。她举了英国歌手 Olly Murs 的例子，当他在健身房练出精壮的腹肌并晒出自拍时，大量女性网民反而留言称“我们更喜欢你之前的身材”。女性在潜意识中往往会将“老爸身材”与更强的育儿投入度挂钩——她们普遍认为拥有这种身材的男性更可能是一位亲力亲为、体贴且关怀备至的伴侣，而这种心理特质对女性具有极大的吸引力。 --- ### [01:19:14](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=4754s) 个人成长印记：从单亲父亲的日常到填补学术盲区 当演播室屏幕上展示出 Saxbe 父亲的照片时，她深情回顾了自己的成长背景对学术生涯的深远影响。在她九岁时父母离异，最初由父亲独自抚养她和兄弟们，随后父母协商达成了轮流抚养协议（joint custody），孩子们一周随父亲生活、一周随母亲生活。 Saxbe 的父亲原本是一位典型的“80年代式父亲”，平时只在重大场合露面，并不擅长琐碎的家务。但在独自面对四个孩子的艰难处境下，他经历了一条极其陡峭的学习曲线，最终迎难而上——亲自为孩子们下厨做饭、辅导家庭作业、开车接送他们去参加体育训练，真正成为了一名优秀的照料者。这段经历让 Saxbe 至今与父亲保持着深厚的感情。 这种童年经历直接塑造了 Saxbe 的研究使命： - 心理学家往往倾向于在研究中疗愈自己过往的遗憾，她对伴侣与家庭关系的关注，潜意识里或许包含着对童年父母离异的探索与反思。 - 亲眼见证父亲转型为卓越的抚养者，让她深刻意识到传统育儿科研中长期存在的巨大偏差——现存文献绝大多数只聚焦于母亲，而忽视了父亲的脑神经变化与心理机制。 - 她强调人类具有极高的动态适应性与神经可塑性（plasticity），成为父亲同样是男性人生中最重大的生理与心理蜕变之一，男性的育儿贡献理应获得同等的科学关注与社会尊重。 --- ### [01:21:08](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=4868s) 离婚对儿童的影响与人类的“带附加条件的单配偶制” 对于离婚对儿童的影响，Saxbe 坦言虽然自己身为单亲家庭长大的孩子，但并未将此作为核心科研方向；不过现有文献确实表明，父母离异会给孩子的成长带来一系列心理与适应上的挑战。 谈话随即切入到一个更宏大的演化命题：人类天生是单配偶制（一夫一妻制）的物种吗？ Saxbe 给出的精辟论断是：人类是“带附加条件的单配偶制”（monogamous with benefits）。她从演化生物学中的两性体型差异（sexual dimorphism）进行了解析： | 物种 / 婚配制度 | 两性体型差异 | 配偶与繁衍机制 | |:--- |:--- |:--- | | **大猩猩（Gorillas）**<br/>（后宫式多配偶制） | 雄性体型几乎是雌性的两倍，差异极大 | 雄性通过极具压倒性的体型优势击败情敌，建立并垄断庞大的雌性后宫群体。 | | **草原田鼠（Prairie Voles）**<br/>（绝对单配偶制） | 雌雄体型几乎完全一致，无体型差异 | 终身配对结合（pair bonding），两性平等承担筑巢与哺育职责。 | | **人类（Humans）**<br/>（处于两者之间的连续谱系） | 男性体型略大于女性，但远未达到大猩猩那样的悬殊差距 | 介于严格专一与多配偶之间，展现出灵活多样的社会与婚配形态。 | 从人类跨文化社会形态来看，虽然历史上出现过一夫多妻制（polygyny），以及少数罕见的一妻多夫制（polyandry），但严格或相对意义上的单配偶制依然是跨越文化最普遍的形态。Saxbe 总结道，单配偶制之所以成为主流，一方面是因为女性的隐性排卵机制促使男性必须长期守护单一伴侣以确保父权确认；更核心的原因在于，男女双亲共同投入的情感与资源保障，在演化上被证明对人类幼崽漫长而脆弱的成长最为有利。 ### [01:22:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=4967s) 现代育儿面临的最大担忧与对未来的希望 当被问及目前最担忧的事情时，Darby Saxbe 博士坦言自己最忧虑的是“地球和人类社会的未来”。这种担忧具体投射在不断下滑的出生率上。她指出，出生率骤降不仅预示着未来社会结构将面临巨大危机，更深层的隐患在于它反映了年轻一代对未来希望感的丧失。当年轻人看着这个世界并说出“我不想繁衍后代，我不想把孩子带到这个世界上来”时，背后折射出的是一种令人心痛的虚无主义与灰暗心态。 与出生率下降相伴随的，是结婚率的持续下滑以及年轻男性与女性之间日益分化的发展轨迹。Saxbe 博士分析，当今年轻群体深陷由推荐算法构建的“信息茧房”之中，男女各自吸收着完全不同的网络内容，加剧了不仅限于美国、甚至蔓延至全球的政治与思想两极分化。两性之间的互动正变得越来越具有对抗性，这与建立健康长寿生活所需的根基背道而驰——科学研究反复证明，晚年健康与长寿的最佳预测指标之一就是建立牢固的人际关系。人类迫切需要重新认识到彼此处于“同一阵营”。尽管现状严峻，Saxbe 博士依然保持乐观，她谈到自己正处于青春期的孩子们（其中包括她刚满 14 岁的儿子），寄望于下一代能够比前人更加睿智，从而扭转局面。 - **年轻群体的心理投射**：拒绝生育本质上反映了年轻一代对未来信心的缺失，伴随着强烈的虚无主义情绪。 - **算法茧房与两性对抗**：男女被不同算法内容所分化，导致两性关系与社会政治走向更加极端的对抗。 - **长寿与关系的紧密纽带**：牢固的人际关系是晚年幸福和寿命长短的核心预测变量。 --- ### [01:24:32](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=5072s) 破解孤独与信任危机：育儿假政策的系统性变革 访谈进入了节目的传统压轴环节：上一位嘉宾留下的神秘问题。该问题直指当下的社会痛点：“人们正变得越来越不信任他人且日益孤独。如果你能按下一个开关，推行一项系统性变革来扭转这一趋势，那会是什么？”Saxbe 博士毫不犹豫地将焦点放在了改善育儿相关的公共政策环境上。她认为，推行普遍适用的带薪育儿假（Paid Parental Leave）是增强人际联结最关键的切入点，它能切实保障父母拥有陪伴、照料新生儿并建立情感依恋的时间与空间。 主持人对此深有同感。作为一名移居美国的英国人，在洛杉矶和纽约等地组建团队时，他发现美国的育儿假政策令人大为震惊。Saxbe 博士指出，与其他发达国家相比，美国在这一领域是极其显眼的“离群值”（Outlier）： - **联邦层面缺乏法定带薪假**：美国在联邦法律层面并未设立面向所有父母的普惠性带薪产假。 - **各州政策碎片化**：尽管部分州有各自的规定，但大多数父母依赖的往往只是由州政府提供的无薪短期残疾休假（Unpaid disability leave）。 - **零工与基层员工缺乏保障**：轮班工人、零工经济从业人员（Gig workers）或诸如沃尔玛等企业的一线基层员工，普遍缺乏带薪休假保障，导致许多新手妈妈在分娩后仅几周就不得不被迫重返工作岗位。 - **FMLA 法律保护的局限性**：联邦《家庭与医疗休假法案》（FMLA）仅保障符合条件的员工享有最多 12 周的“无薪”休假，期间雇主须保留其团体医疗保险，但不会发放任何工资补贴。 ```mermaid flowchart TD accTitle: 美国育儿支持现状与改革构想 accDescr: 对比美国现行家庭医疗休假法案的局限性与专家提出的普惠带薪假系统性改革方案。 subgraph Current["美国现行政策短板 (FMLA)"] A["仅提供最多 12 周无薪休假"] --> B["低收入/零工/轮班工人缺乏保障"] B --> C["产妇产后数周被迫复工，损害亲子联结"] end subgraph Proposed["系统性变革目标"] D["联邦普惠带薪育儿假"] --> E["保障早期亲子依恋建立"] E --> F["促进父亲深度参与，缓解社会孤独"] end ``` Saxbe 博士与主持人强调，高昂的养育成本使得无薪休假成为家庭无法承受之重。令人费解的是，带薪育儿假在美国是一项跨越党派分歧、民调支持率高达约 80% 的议题，两党选民均表示支持，但政界始终缺乏将其立法的政治魄力。主持人调侃或许需要女性或有深度育儿体验的同理心男性执政，才能真正推动这一关乎社会基石的改革落地。 --- ### [01:27:09](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=5229s) 重新认识父亲的价值与《Dad Brain》的科学启示 在对谈结尾，主持人向 Saxbe 博士表达了由衷的敬意，感谢她撰写了《Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men's Lives》（父亲大脑：关于父亲身份的新科学及其如何塑造男性人生）一书。该研究打破了流行文化长期以来对父亲角色的刻板印象与神话误区，以严谨的跨物种生物学视角、神经科学脑部扫描数据以及生动的故事，证实了父亲在育儿中具有不可替代的关键作用。 主持人感慨，当下的舆论往往放大了做父母的痛苦与牺牲，而育儿所带来的深远积极意义往往被严重低估。科学普及有助于重新平衡这种认知偏差，从而培养出更健康的新一代。他提到身边的同龄人因各种生理或现实原因在生育抉择上承受着多重压力，而 Saxbe 博士的第一手前沿神经科学研究，不仅为渴望成为父亲的人提供了清晰指引，也深刻揭示了伴侣互动机制及关系触礁的根源。在展示了该书的美版与英版封面后，访谈在对彼此研究与前瞻视野的致谢中圆满收尾。 ## Notable quotes > [00:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=0s) 优秀的父亲是后天铸就的，而非天生如此（Great fathers are made not born）。 — Dr. Darby Saxbe > [06:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=390s) 这就像是看一部包含了大量琐碎无用镜头和冗杂角色的导演剪辑版（director's cut），而你在电影院看到的公映版是一部精炼凌厉、毫无赘肉的两小时成片——大多数人都更喜欢公映版，因为它的主线更紧凑清晰。 — Dr. Darby Saxbe > [16:00](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=960s) 构建一个更有意义的人生（building a more meaningful life） — Dr. Darby Saxbe > [28:45](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=1725s) 根本没有什么所谓的正确时机。你只管生，然后想办法搞定它；只要孩子生下来，你自然能找到出路。 — Dr. Darby Saxbe 的研究生导师 > [40:13](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2413s) 社交认知的数独游戏（Sudoku for your social cognition） — Dr. Darby Saxbe > [52:24](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3144s) 我如今非常感激我丈夫，因为我曾亲眼目睹他如何与我们那些像‘恐怖分子’一样的幼童进行谈判。 — Dr. Darby Saxbe > [49:30](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2970s) 我当妈也才两天，和你时间一模一样，你自己想办法拿湿巾擦！ — 读书会分享母亲 > [42:11](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=2531s) 如果你能熟练安抚一个正在大发脾气的两岁幼儿，你在职场上大概率会成为极其优秀的团队管理者；如果你能妥善协调三个同时争宠的孩子，你在亲密伴侣关系中必然也是更出色的冲突解决专家。 — Dr. Darby Saxbe > [01:04:23](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=3863s) 优秀的父亲是后天塑造出来的，而不是天生的。（Great fathers are made not born.） — Dr. Darby Saxbe > [01:22:47](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k&t=4967s) 我不想繁衍后代，我不想把孩子带到这个世界上来 — 年轻一代 ## Mentioned Dr. Darby Saxbe, Steven Bartlett, The Diary Of A CEO, University of Southern California (USC), NEST Lab (Neuroendocrinology of Social Ties Lab), Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men's Lives, Daddy Stroller Social Club, Centers for Disease Control and Prevention (CDC), Pew Research Center, The Lancet, Shopify, Pipedrive, LinkedIn Talent Solutions, UK Biobank, Robert Waldinger, Harvard Study of Adult Development, Erica Komisar, Richard Reeves, Olly Murs, Trader Joe's, Whoop, Family and Medical Leave Act (FMLA) ## Video description What actually happens to your brain, and how fast or slow do you age when you become a parent? Dr. Darby Saxbe reveals the surprising science of the "parental brain" and how fatherhood physically reshapes a man's mind, why dads lose grey matter, what really happens to testosterone, and why the "dad bod" might be nature's design. Dr. Darby Saxbe is a professor of psychology and a leading researcher on the neuroscience of parenthood. She is the founder and director of the NEST (Neuroendocrinology of Social Ties) Lab at the University of Southern California, where her pioneering work studies how the transition to parenthood changes the brains, hormones and relationships of both mothers and fathers. Her research has reshaped how scientists understand fatherhood, men's mental health, and what it really takes to raise a child. 00:00:00 Intro 00:02:33 Role Of Fathers In Parenting 00:06:30 What Happens To The Brain When You Become A Father? 00:09:29 Why Testosterone Drops When Men Become Fathers 00:11:42 Should Men Be Worried About Lower Testosterone? 00:15:59 What Fatherhood Can Change In A Man’s Personality 00:19:20 The Upsides And Downsides Of Parenting 00:21:50 What Happens When We Make Parents Fight? 00:24:08 Why The Birth Experience Can Shape Your Relationship 00:27:45 Are People Waiting For The Perfect Time To Have Kids? 00:31:04 Why Fewer People May Be Choosing Parenthood 00:35:33 Ads 00:37:54 Do Parents Actually Have Healthier Brains? 00:45:22 What Does Daycare Really Mean For Children? 00:47:37 Why Mothers Become The Default Parent 00:49:30 Maternal Gatekeeping And Weaponized Incompetence 00:52:24 What Really Happens To Relationships After A Baby 00:54:47 Why Fathers Can Experience Postpartum Depression 00:57:05 Can Your Personality Predict Whether You’ll Divorce? 01:01:11 Why Women’s Ovulation May Be Harder To Detect 01:03:26 How Can You Increase Your Chances Of Conceiving? 01:04:23 What Every New Father Needs To Know 01:05:11 Ads 01:06:28 How Should Parents Divide Baby Care? 01:08:32 What Couples Should Do Before Having Kids 01:14:03 How To Protect Your Relationship After Having Children 01:16:02 Is The Dad Bod More Attractive? 01:19:14 What Does Your Childhood Teach You About Parenting? 01:21:08 How Divorce Can Affect Children 01:21:25 Are Humans Really Meant To Be Monogamous? 01:22:47 What Are The Biggest Concerns About Modern Parenthood? 01:24:32 What Systemic Change Could Transform Parenting? She explains: ◼ Why a father's brain physically shrinks when you become a dad ◼ Why testosterone drops in new fathers ◼ Why the "dad bod" may signal a more attentive hands-on father ◼ Why men experience postpartum depression ◼ Why raising a child was never meant to be done by two people alone Follow Dr. Darby Saxbe: X: https://x.com/darbysaxbe NEST Lab: https://www.nestlab.ca Her research: https://dornsife.usc.edu/nestlab/ Her book ‘Dad Brain: The New Science of Fatherhood and How It Shapes Men's Lives: https://a.co/d/03Qhspxt Join her US based ‘Daddy Stroller Social Club’: https://daddystrollersocialclub.com The Diary Of A CEO: ◼ Join DOAC circle here - https://doaccircle.com/ ◼ Shop The Diary Of A CEO collection: https://thediary.com/collections/shop ◼ Get email updates - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/5IB1H6E ◼ Follow Steven - https://link.thediaryofaceo.com/AGU9QP4 Sponsors: Shopify - https://shopify.com/bartlett Linkedin Talent Solutions - http://linkedin.com/DOAC Pipedrive - https://pipedrive.com/CEO [Source](https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=Ppyt3MptX5k)

[0:00] Dr. Darby Saxbe: 优秀的父亲是后天铸就的，而非天生如此（Great fathers are made not born）。 [6:30] Dr. Darby Saxbe: 这就像是看一部包含了大量琐碎无用镜头和冗杂角色的导演剪辑版（director's cut），而你在电影院看到的公映版是一部精炼凌厉、毫无赘肉的两小时成片——大多数人都更喜欢公映版，因为它的主线更紧凑清晰。 [16:00] Dr. Darby Saxbe: 构建一个更有意义的人生（building a more meaningful life） [28:45] Dr. Darby Saxbe 的研究生导师: 根本没有什么所谓的正确时机。你只管生，然后想办法搞定它；只要孩子生下来，你自然能找到出路。 [40:13] Dr. Darby Saxbe: 社交认知的数独游戏（Sudoku for your social cognition） [52:24] Dr. Darby Saxbe: 我如今非常感激我丈夫，因为我曾亲眼目睹他如何与我们那些像‘恐怖分子’一样的幼童进行谈判。 [49:30] 读书会分享母亲: 我当妈也才两天，和你时间一模一样，你自己想办法拿湿巾擦！ [42:11] Dr. Darby Saxbe: 如果你能熟练安抚一个正在大发脾气的两岁幼儿，你在职场上大概率会成为极其优秀的团队管理者；如果你能妥善协调三个同时争宠的孩子，你在亲密伴侣关系中必然也是更出色的冲突解决专家。 [64:23] Dr. Darby Saxbe: 优秀的父亲是后天塑造出来的，而不是天生的。（Great fathers are made not born.） [82:47] 年轻一代: 我不想繁衍后代，我不想把孩子带到这个世界上来

[0:00] Dr. Darby Saxbe: great fathers are made, not born. [27:45] Dr. Darby Saxbe's graduate school advisor: There is no right time. You just have to do it and make it work. [49:30] Hand him to me, I know what to do. [49:30] the poop's on the wall [52:24] Dr. Darby Saxbe: negotiate with terrorists in the form of our young children [64:23] Dr. Darby Saxbe: great fathers are made, not born [76:43] Dr. Darby Saxbe: lightly marbled male torso [81:25] Dr. Darby Saxbe: monogamous with benefits

[0:00] you've discovered something about the [0:01] brain I think is quite surprising. [0:03] >> So we found that in fathers the brain is [0:05] actually shrinking and I'll explain why [0:08] but also there are studies that find [0:10] that both men and women who report [0:11] having had more kids have markers of a [0:14] younger looking brain age and then also [0:16] typically men when they do this show [0:19] about a 25% drop in testosterone. [0:22] The next studies of single women have [0:24] found that, you know, if you show them a [0:26] series of body types, the dad bot is the [0:28] most popular [0:29] >> and that's proven by science. So, if I [0:31] go out and get a dad bot, you're telling [0:32] me the science that says I'm going to be [0:33] more attractive. [0:34] >> Yeah, go for it. [0:34] >> See what my fiance says. The other thing [0:36] that's worth talking about is Have you [0:39] done any studies on that? [0:40] >> Yes. That is one of the most robust [0:42] findings in parenthood research and my [0:45] lab found actually that [0:46] >> Wow. So, I've always been really [0:48] interested in families and becoming a [0:50] parent is one of the biggest [0:52] transformations that you can experience, [0:54] but I'm concerned about the declining [0:56] birth rate. And I think that we've [0:58] managed to market it as an undesirable [1:01] choice. [1:01] >> According to the CDC and Pew Research [1:03] data, the US total fertility rate just [1:05] hit an all-time recorded low. [1:07] >> Yeah. I mean, the transition to [1:08] parenthood can be really challenging. [1:10] You are sacrificing yourself. It can be [1:12] very isolating. You're losing your [1:14] sleep. But becoming a parent, you are [1:16] benefiting from this sense of connection [1:18] and purpose. You will rediscover your [1:20] priorities in a way that will ultimately [1:22] bring a lot of value. [1:24] >> So if all goes well, next year I will be [1:25] a dad and I would like you to give me [1:27] some advice on becoming a father based [1:29] on all the research that you have. [1:30] >> So great fathers are made not born. [1:32] There's a lot you can do. [1:33] >> I'm going to write it down. [1:34] >> Love it. So first, [1:39] >> this is super interesting to me. My team [1:41] given me this report to show me how many [1:42] of you that watch this show subscribe [1:44] and some of you have told us according [1:45] to this that you are unsubscribed from [1:47] the channel randomly. So favor to ask [1:49] all of you please could you check right [1:51] now if you've hit the subscribe button [1:52] if you are a regular view of the show [1:54] and you like what we do here. We're [1:55] approaching quite a significant landmark [1:57] on this show in terms of a subscriber [1:58] number. So, if there was one simple free [2:01] thing that you could do to help us, my [2:03] team, everyone here, to keep this show [2:04] free, to keep it improving year over [2:07] year and week over week, it is just to [2:08] hit that subscribe button and to double [2:10] check if you've hit it. Only thing I'll [2:11] ever ask of you, do we have a deal? If [2:13] you do it, I'll tell you what I'll do. [2:15] I'll make sure every single week, every [2:17] single month, we fight harder and harder [2:19] and harder and harder to bring you the [2:20] guests and conversations that you want [2:21] to hear. I've stayed true to that [2:22] promise since the very beginning of the [2:24] D of Sio, and I will not let you down. [2:27] Please help us. Really appreciate it. [2:28] Let's get on with the show. [2:33] Dr. Darby Saxby, you've discovered [2:37] something about the brain that I think [2:39] is quite surprising to a lot of men and [2:41] women as it relates to what happens to a [2:43] man's brain when they become a father. [2:45] Um, and I've got the report here in [2:47] front of me, but I have a model brain [2:49] over there. Could you explain to me what [2:51] exactly it is that you discovered? [2:53] >> Yes. So we found that in fathers and [2:56] this is similar to what's been observed [2:58] in mothers, the brain is actually losing [3:01] gray matter volume. So it is shrinking. [3:03] So if I had stronger hands, I could [3:05] probably squish this brain and make it [3:07] look tinier. [3:08] >> But the parts of the brain that are [3:09] shrinking the most are in what we call [3:12] the mentalizing network. And that's a [3:14] part of the brain that helps us [3:16] understand other people's feelings and [3:19] intentions. Those areas are kind of [3:21] concentrated around the midline of the [3:23] cortex, which is kind of what we're [3:25] seeing here. And then you also see [3:28] volume reduction in the visual areas, [3:30] which is the back of the brain, which is [3:31] really important for understanding when [3:34] you look at an infant's face, what kinds [3:35] of emotions it's trying to tell you. And [3:38] so we see changes to those parts of the [3:40] brain and new dads. In moms, we see [3:42] changes to these same parts of the [3:44] brain. We also see changes in moms to [3:46] what's called the subcortex, which is [3:48] this part of the brain that kind of [3:50] controls our gut feelings and our sense [3:52] of reward and is really strongly linked [3:54] with our hormones. So moms are kind of [3:57] changing all across the brain. Dads are [3:59] mostly changing in this top layer, the [4:01] cortex, which kind of controls our [4:04] higher order thinking, reasoning, and [4:06] executive functioning. And that tells us [4:09] something about fatherhood, which is [4:11] that fathers choose to engage in [4:14] parenting. It's a sort of cognitively [4:17] mediated investment that dads are [4:19] making. [4:19] >> What does that mean? [4:20] >> So, if you think about a mom who's been [4:23] through 9 months of pregnancy, she is [4:26] flooded with hormones when her baby is [4:28] born and she has a really high [4:31] investment in the baby's survival. Just [4:34] thinking about the number of calories [4:36] that it takes to sustain a pregnancy, [4:38] it's thousands. And and so there's a [4:41] very high floor from maternal [4:42] investment. And moms are undergoing [4:45] plasticity all across the brain that [4:47] reflects that. In dads, there's a [4:50] tremendous amount of cross-cultural [4:53] variability. So there are cultures in [4:56] which dads participate in child care and [4:59] are very hands-on with babies from the [5:01] moment of birth. There are cultures in [5:03] which there are prohibitions against men [5:05] picking babies up. [5:06] >> You don't pick babies up in the first [5:08] year. In some cultures, [5:09] >> you don't pick babies up because it's [5:10] considered unmanly. Okay? [5:12] >> So, there's a tremendous amount of [5:14] variability and dads calibrate their [5:16] investment according to what the culture [5:18] says and what the context looks like. If [5:21] mom becomes unavailable, dad is often [5:23] needed to step in and provide more of [5:26] the care. And so this sort of top layer [5:28] of brain changes reflects that, you [5:31] know, dads are modulating their [5:34] investment depending on what they're [5:36] learning from the environment. And the [5:39] word that biologists use for this is [5:42] facultative. So a facultative [5:45] adaptation is an adaptation that is [5:48] optional but extremely useful. You could [5:51] think about an animal that walks on four [5:53] legs suddenly having something really [5:56] important to grab and switching to walk [5:59] on two legs so that it can use its [6:01] hands. Hands are really useful for that [6:05] animal. Fathers are really useful for [6:08] humanity. [6:09] >> But are you saying they're optional, [6:10] >> but they vary depending on situation. [6:13] And I don't want to say that fathers [6:14] aren't important. They're incredibly [6:16] important. There are dads who are [6:18] primary caregivers and even sole [6:20] caregivers of children. But dads vary [6:23] and they vary depending on what is [6:26] needed for children to thrive in their [6:28] specific local context. [6:30] >> And a woman's brain shrinks as well, but [6:32] it shrinks a little bit more. [6:34] >> Yes, it covers more of the brain [6:36] >> and it also shows a larger across the [6:39] board volume reduction. And I should [6:41] explain volume reduction. We often think [6:43] about deficit mommy brain. you're [6:46] forgetting things. Volume reduction is [6:48] not a bad thing. What it means is that [6:50] the brain is actually working more [6:52] efficiently because it's building better [6:55] connected pathways and better channels [6:58] for communicating information. [7:00] >> Is it accurate to say that the brain is [7:03] focusing? [7:04] >> Yes, exactly. So, it's reshaping in a [7:06] way that enables more efficient [7:10] communication. It's learning. It's [7:11] consolidating. So, it's kind of like if [7:13] you think about the director's cut of a [7:17] movie that has lots of interesting extra [7:19] scenes and characters and then you watch [7:21] it in the theater and it's like this [7:23] lean mean 2hour cut, [7:25] >> right? Like many of us prefer the [7:26] theatrical release because it's easier [7:28] to follow. [7:30] >> And by getting rid of certain parts of [7:32] the brain, that means more energy can be [7:34] used in the other parts of the brain. Is [7:36] that broadly accurate? [7:37] >> Exactly. So that we're better able to [7:40] focus on what matters. And when we [7:42] become parents, what matters is our [7:45] children and the inputs they're giving [7:46] us. [7:47] >> The interesting thing is the way that [7:48] you described the part of the brain that [7:51] the man loses when they become a father [7:54] made it seem like they're losing [7:55] empathy. [7:56] >> No, they're actually improving in their [7:59] empathy because they're becoming more [8:02] efficient processors of social [8:04] information. So the fact that where we [8:06] see the biggest changes are in these [8:08] what we call mentalizing social [8:10] cognition networks tells us that those [8:13] networks are really important for dads [8:15] to use when they become parents and [8:17] they're getting a lot of practice [8:18] putting those networks into into use. [8:21] >> I thought you said that section of the [8:23] brain shrunk. [8:23] >> Yes. Because the brain is becoming more [8:26] efficient. So, it's losing all the extra [8:29] pathways and you're sort of building a [8:31] super highway for that specific social [8:34] information. [8:35] >> Sounds a bit counterintuitive because I [8:36] imagined that my brain would grow when I [8:39] get better at something. [8:40] >> You would, but in this case, the brain [8:42] is actually shrinking. And I know it it [8:45] sort of feels like a puzzle to wrap your [8:47] head around, but it actually does [8:49] reflect that the brain is working [8:51] better. And is there a relationship [8:53] between how hands-on the father is and [8:57] the amount of shrinkage that happens in [8:59] their brain? [8:59] >> Yeah. And my lab found that [9:01] relationship. So when dads told us [9:03] before birth that they felt more bonded [9:05] to their unborn baby, when they wanted [9:07] to take more time off after work, and [9:09] when they told us 3 months after birth [9:11] that they enjoyed their babies more, [9:13] they felt more connected and bonded to [9:15] them, and they were spending more time [9:17] taking care of their babies, they had [9:19] more profound brain shrinkage. All of [9:22] this seems to support the contention [9:23] that the shrinkage is really adaptive [9:26] and it's enabling men's adjustment to [9:28] parenthood. [9:29] >> Is there any other biological changes [9:31] that take place when someone becomes a [9:33] father? [9:34] >> So, we also see changes to men's [9:36] hormones. [9:37] >> I talk about this in the book. Men [9:39] typically show a drop in testosterone [9:42] >> and I've got a big thing here. [9:44] >> Yeah, let's talk about testosterone. So [9:47] typically men when their hands on as [9:49] fathers show about a 25% drop in [9:52] testosterone and some of the best [9:54] studies of this have been done [9:55] longitudinally in the Philippines. [9:58] Before we had longitudinal studies [10:00] people said well maybe lower [10:02] testosterone men are just choosing to [10:04] become fathers. And so looking across [10:07] time lets us tease that out and see is [10:10] there something about fatherhood that's [10:12] actually changing testosterone. And so [10:14] when you look across decades, you find [10:16] that testosterone is typically pretty [10:18] high before pregnancy happens. And it's [10:22] adapted to have high testosterone. You [10:24] know, testosterone's been studied a lot [10:26] in birds. It's also been studied in [10:28] rodents and in other mammals. You want [10:30] high testosterone at the start of [10:33] breeding season when it's time to [10:36] maximize your chances of producing [10:38] offspring. You want to compete. You want [10:40] to build status. You want to fight off [10:42] your rivals, high testosterone is your [10:45] friend. Once you've accomplished your [10:47] reproductive goal and you've caused a [10:49] pregnancy and you want your offspring to [10:52] survive, you want to be investing and [10:55] nurturing that new baby. And this is [10:58] what we saw in the men in the [10:59] Philippines that as they were spending [11:01] more time taking care of kids, they [11:03] showed a sharper drop. And and then you [11:06] typically see some rebound when the baby [11:10] is getting older. And again, this is not [11:12] unique to humans. We see it all over the [11:14] animal kingdom. [11:16] >> So during a pregnancy, something some [11:19] chemical tells my body [11:21] >> Yeah. [11:21] >> that I need to make less testosterone [11:23] even though the baby's not here yet. [11:24] >> Yeah. It might just be your proximity to [11:26] your pregnant partner. [11:28] >> Interesting. [11:28] >> Yeah. Our lab found expectant dads and [11:30] expectant moms had correlated levels of [11:33] testosterone during pregnancy. And the [11:36] more strong that relationship was, the [11:39] more dad showed a drop in testosterone [11:41] after birth. But I want to caveat cuz I [11:44] think a lot of men are really concerned [11:45] about the idea that testosterone might [11:47] drop. And I think we have a really [11:49] strong narrative right now that [11:51] testosterone sort of like equals [11:52] successful masculinity. [11:55] >> And masculinity is not about a [11:57] particular hormone. It is about a body [11:59] that is responsive to our goals and that [12:02] sets us up to meet the demands of our [12:05] environment. And so having a biology [12:09] that fluctuates across the lifespan as [12:12] our reproductive strategy shifts is [12:14] really adaptive. We want to be flexible [12:17] and that doesn't always mean maxed out [12:19] testosterone. So high levels of [12:20] testosterone actually decrease our sperm [12:23] count and they are bad for our immune [12:28] system. [12:29] >> I think some men might be concerned that [12:31] dropping testosterone might make them [12:33] worse in the gym or it might make them [12:35] less ambitious or less able to pursue [12:37] their goals in life. Is there any truth [12:38] to that? There's definitely a link [12:40] between testosterone and men's, [12:44] you know, muscle mass and their [12:47] motivation, their drives, but these are [12:49] not onetoone relationships. So the human [12:52] hormone literature is messy and a lot of [12:55] these are weak correlations. So [12:58] testosterone doesn't necessarily equal [13:00] success at work, for example. And high [13:03] testosterone can get in men's way in in [13:05] multiple ways. So there are links [13:07] between men's testosterone levels and um [13:11] relationship satisfaction in the couple [13:13] relationship. So my lab did a study [13:16] where we found that men who had [13:17] relatively higher testosterone after [13:20] their baby's birth had uh partners who [13:23] were more dissatisfied in the [13:24] relationship and reported more intimate [13:26] partner aggression. So the dads [13:29] themselves reported more parenting [13:30] stress. So there's a little bit of a [13:32] mixed bag of high testosterone and what [13:34] it looks like. you want is to hit a [13:37] sweet spot. You don't want testosterone [13:39] levels that totally crash. My lab has [13:41] also found that when testosterone is [13:43] really low after a birth, men have [13:45] higher postpartum depression symptoms. [13:48] You don't necessarily want testosterone [13:50] levels that are skyhigh either because [13:52] that can cause problems in your intimate [13:54] relationship and it can make it hard for [13:56] you to switch into nurturing and [13:58] parenting mode. So, the men who seem [14:00] most successful in our study were men [14:02] who had mid-range testosterone levels. [14:05] that could be flexible and that could [14:08] adapt to different life changes. [14:11] >> And am I right in thinking that the more [14:13] time you spend hands-on as a father in [14:15] those studies that they did on men, the [14:18] lower your testosterone will go? [14:20] >> Yeah. So the longitudinal work in the [14:23] Philippines found that when men spent [14:26] more time changing babies, doing [14:29] hands-on care, sharing a sleeping [14:31] surface with babies, they had more of a [14:33] testosterone drop. So the testosterone, [14:37] the hormones are responsive to the [14:40] context and to what we're doing. But [14:42] testosterone does rebound, you know, [14:45] after birth. So, it's not necessarily [14:47] the case that testosterone is going to [14:49] bottom out and it's going to stay low [14:50] forever. [14:51] >> You know, you said a second ago that men [14:53] that had crashes to their testosterone [14:55] during the pregnancy and thereafter um [14:58] had a high likelihood of experiencing [15:00] postpartum depression themselves. [15:02] >> Does that are you implying that that [15:03] means that there's an ideal amount of [15:05] time and hands-onness that a father can [15:08] spend with their child to make sure [15:10] their testosterone hits that mid-range [15:12] point? [15:12] >> Yeah, it's it's a really good question. [15:14] I mean, I don't know that we know for [15:16] sure if there's like a dose of parenting [15:20] involvement that sort of lends itself to [15:23] an ideal amount of testosterone. It's [15:26] hard to optimize your way out of these [15:28] natural changes. I I don't want to [15:31] discourage dads from being hands-on with [15:34] their kids because they're worried [15:35] they're going to pay some kind of [15:37] physiological tax. I think it's more [15:39] like make sure you're protecting your [15:41] sleep, which we know is linked with [15:44] overall health. Make sure you're getting [15:46] time to exercise and to socialize, you [15:48] know, to participate in activities that [15:51] bring you joy. Like, those are ways to [15:54] help mitigate your risk that I think [15:56] will be more successful than trying to [15:58] hit a particular hormone level. [16:00] >> My brother is a year older than me and [16:02] he has um three young kids under the age [16:04] of seven [16:06] >> now. Um they were actually just here. [16:08] They just left. But um I noticed a [16:10] remarkable difference in him when he [16:12] when his wife Julia got pregnant. [16:15] >> What did you notice? [16:16] >> Just a a total shift in what he wanted [16:19] out of life. [16:19] >> Yeah. [16:20] >> And so before growing up, I remember um [16:23] one day seeing him on the computer [16:24] figuring out which job would pay the [16:25] most money. And he was very very smart. [16:27] He he is very very smart. [16:29] >> And he picked he sort of orientated his [16:31] career towards the job that would make [16:32] the most money. [16:33] >> And then he was successful. He went to [16:35] LSSE, got the job. Um, and then shortly [16:40] after graduating university, met [16:42] someone, they got pregnant unexpectedly. [16:44] >> And I watched my brother go from someone [16:46] who was like really striving for [16:48] material goals. [16:49] >> Yeah. [16:50] >> To someone who suddenly placed the [16:53] material goal immediately after. How do [16:55] I retire and spend the maximum amount of [16:57] my time with my kids? [16:58] >> Yeah. [16:59] >> His kids are number one above all [17:02] anything else. And it's something I [17:03] admire a lot about him. But the most [17:04] remarkable thing as someone that's not [17:06] gone through that transition cuz I've [17:07] not had kids yet is just watching how [17:09] profound the change was in him in terms [17:11] of his stated goals and ambitions. [17:14] >> Yeah. [17:14] >> Like what is this? [17:15] >> I'm so glad you said that cuz that's [17:16] something I heard from so many of the [17:18] fathers that I interviewed for the book [17:20] is that you experience this profound [17:23] shift in your values and your [17:24] priorities. And a lot of men, you know, [17:27] if you survey parents, you say, "What [17:29] are the most meaningful priorities in [17:31] your life?" [17:33] Men are just as likely as women to say [17:35] my kids. [17:36] >> And I think fathers increasingly are [17:39] recognizing that the parenting role is [17:40] really central to their self-concept. [17:43] And you know, like we're in a culture [17:46] where I think it can be hard for men to [17:48] find a sense of meaning and purpose and [17:51] connection to other people. Being a [17:53] parent can can give you that sense of [17:55] meaning and purpose. M and so, you know, [17:57] I think that's a really important [17:59] framing around, you know, your [18:01] testosterone level might change or your [18:03] brain might shrink, like things that [18:05] maybe sound a little scary and negative, [18:07] but they're in the service of this [18:09] larger goal, which is building a more [18:11] meaningful life. And I think, you know, [18:14] like a message to men and also to women, [18:17] to moms and to dads, is anything that's [18:19] worth doing is hard. Being a parent is [18:22] really hard. You know, you are [18:24] sacrificing yourself. You're losing your [18:26] sleep. You are getting extra wrinkles. [18:29] Ask me how I know. But you are [18:33] benefiting from this sense of connection [18:35] and purpose that you know it sounds like [18:37] your brother has been totally [18:39] transformed by. And I think we're in a [18:41] lot of ways like selling young men on [18:43] this message that you should be [18:45] optimizing your bank account and your [18:48] body fat percentage and you should be [18:50] out there hustling as much as possible. [18:52] And I think that can be a little bit of [18:53] a hollow message because what we keep [18:55] learning again and again from the [18:57] longevity studies is that the quality of [19:00] men's relationships is the best [19:01] predictor of their well-being and old [19:03] age. So men with healthy marriages, men [19:07] who have positive relationships with [19:09] their kids, those are the men who age [19:12] well, not necessarily the men who've [19:14] maxed out on, you know, riches or the [19:17] perfect body fat score. It is is it's [19:21] really a remarkable thing because when [19:23] you as you look forward into becoming a [19:25] parent, you often see the sacrifices [19:29] you'll have to make. You hear about, [19:30] okay, you're not going to sleep as much [19:32] as you used to. You'll hear about um the [19:34] anxieties of being a parent and loving [19:36] something so much more than yourself and [19:37] all these things. But that sort of [19:39] profound psychological, biological, [19:41] hormonal shift, [19:43] >> you kind of just have to believe in it. [19:44] >> Yeah. Yeah, [19:45] >> people like tell you about it as if it's [19:46] like a almost like a like almost like a [19:50] religion. I say that because you have to [19:51] have faith that the profound upside will [19:54] be um worth the very obvious cost that [19:57] you see parents, you know, the [19:58] sacrifices they have to make. [19:59] >> Yeah, I think that's exactly right cuz I [20:01] think a lot of the downsides are really [20:03] visible. Yeah. [20:04] >> Like we've all been on a plane with a [20:05] crying kid and we've seen the frantic [20:07] parent trying to calm them down. [20:08] >> We've all seen a tantrum in the grocery [20:10] store, right? Like that that stuff is [20:12] right in your face. But the upsides are [20:15] sort of invisible. You know, just like [20:17] the joy of seeing your child's face as [20:19] they discover something new [20:21] >> or, you know, getting to snuggle late at [20:23] night and feeling this sense of [20:24] closeness that you've never had, right? [20:26] That like love that's bigger than [20:28] yourself. Mhm. [20:29] >> And I think it's important to speak [20:32] about the benefits as well as the [20:34] downsides because we humans crave [20:38] connection and you know we crave care [20:43] and I think becoming a parent is an [20:45] opportunity to provide care on a scale [20:48] that's hard to find in other ways. [20:49] >> I also want to hear from you about how [20:51] the mother's brain changes through [20:54] pregnancy and beyond. Yeah. cuz Julia, [20:57] so my brother's wife, she was here as [20:59] well and she's remarkably different now [21:01] that she's had these three beautiful [21:03] children. [21:04] >> And I was asking her last night cuz she [21:06] was in the sort of corporate world [21:07] before. I was saying, you know, on when [21:08] they grow up and they leave home, which [21:10] again is probably the worst thing you [21:11] could probably say to a mother who has [21:13] three young beautiful children and who's [21:14] already like anxious that someday [21:16] they're going to [21:17] >> fly the nest. I was like, what what what [21:19] will then be in the place of these three [21:21] kids in your life? Would you want to go [21:22] back to like the corporate world or do [21:24] you want to do something else? and how [21:25] has it reordered your sense of meaning? [21:27] But tell me, how does the mother's brain [21:29] change? [21:30] >> Yeah, the mother's brain changes really [21:31] profoundly as well. Moms are losing [21:33] about 2 and 12% of their brain volume [21:35] from before pregnancy to after birth. [21:39] Dads in our studies, we found they lose [21:40] about 1% of their brain volume. So, [21:43] similar pattern in similar parts of the [21:45] brain, but the magnitude is different [21:48] and there's more variability in the [21:50] dads. [21:50] >> And how did you conduct these studies? [21:52] What was the methodology? So, we [21:54] recruited a bunch of firsttime parents. [21:57] These were uh all couples that we [21:59] recruited during pregnancy. [22:01] >> Our only rule was that you had to be [22:03] cohabiting and you had to be planning to [22:06] continue cohabiting after the birth [22:07] because we really wanted to capture the [22:10] dads and get their experience, you know, [22:12] being in proximity to their babies. And [22:15] so, we brought them into the lab. We [22:17] asked them every question we could think [22:19] of. We sampled their blood, their [22:20] saliva, their hair. Uh we had them fight [22:25] with each other on camera. We scanned [22:27] the men's brains and then about 6 months [22:30] after their baby was born, we brought [22:32] them back into the lab, blood, saliva, [22:35] hair. This time we got a breast milk [22:36] sample. We got a sample of baby poop and [22:39] we had them fight again and we scan the [22:40] dad's brains again. [22:41] >> You had them fight again. [22:42] >> We had them fight again. We wanted to [22:44] see how do couples communicate with each [22:47] other and does that change across the [22:49] transition to parenthood and also what [22:52] communication styles are going to [22:54] predict better couple level adaptation [22:57] to becoming parents. [22:59] >> How did you get them to fight? I need to [23:00] make sure I don't do that. [23:01] >> So we gave them a whole list of [23:03] different topics. We said these are [23:04] topics that couples commonly argue about [23:07] which are hot button issues for you and [23:09] your partner. And so we had both the mom [23:11] and the dad fill these out [23:12] independently. And then we went through [23:14] and we saw what are the issues that both [23:17] people are endorsing and we said we want [23:20] you to talk about this issue. Don't hold [23:22] back. We're going to give you 15 minutes [23:24] sit in this room and we, you know, watch [23:27] them talk through it. They weren't, you [23:30] know, like punching each other, but the [23:32] conversations were often contentious [23:34] because they were talking about issues [23:35] that were frequently objects of [23:37] conflict. [23:38] >> Mhm. Okay. And what did you discover? [23:41] >> So, we discovered that when couples [23:43] fought more negatively with each other, [23:45] they subsequently reported more [23:47] difficult birth experiences. [23:49] And it's interesting because birth is a [23:52] time in which moms need a lot of support [23:55] and the partner is often a primary [23:57] person who's in the room providing that [23:59] support. So, when couples have, you [24:01] know, sort of like a like a toxic [24:03] difficult relationship, that can really [24:06] color mom's experience of the birth. [24:09] Are you saying that because the person [24:12] that they fought with and don't have a [24:15] good conflict resolution strategy with [24:18] it was in the room, they had a bad birth [24:21] experience or did something actually [24:23] happen in the birth experience? Did like [24:25] the the husband make a comment like [24:27] >> Yeah. No, I mean we didn't record their [24:29] conversations during the birth, but we [24:31] actually did get the charts from the [24:33] hospital or the birth center after the [24:35] baby delivered and we looked at [24:36] complications. We looked at how [24:38] medically complex the birth was. And we [24:40] found that when couples fought more [24:42] negatively and less positively during [24:44] pregnancy, [24:45] >> during pregnancy [24:46] >> during pregnancy, so you know, they're [24:48] about 6 months into pregnancy. A few [24:50] months later, when it's time to deliver [24:52] the infant, they had more medically [24:54] complex births. And they also appraised [24:56] the births as more stressful. So the [24:59] conclusion is it's thinking about the [25:01] couple relationship is actually [25:02] important when we think about birth. [25:04] There's been a huge sea change about how [25:08] we deliver babies. You know, like it [25:11] used to be that men were never in the [25:13] birthing room. So, babies were t [25:16] typically delivered with the assistance [25:18] of a female midwife and female [25:20] relatives. And it really wasn't until [25:22] birth moved into hospitals in, you know, [25:25] the late 19th century, suddenly you had [25:27] a male physician who's presiding over [25:29] the birth. And then really it wasn't [25:31] until the 60s and 70s that dads started [25:34] to advocate for their inclusion in the [25:36] birth room. They said, you know, we [25:38] don't want to miss this. We want to be [25:40] present. But because historically dads [25:43] have really not been part of the birth [25:44] experience, we haven't necessarily [25:47] thought about the couple relationship as [25:49] a place to intervene. If we want to make [25:51] birth go smoothly, we actually want to [25:54] be thinking about dad's mental health [25:56] and we want to be thinking about coup's [25:58] relationship functioning because those [26:00] things might actually affect mom's [26:02] psychological experience at birth. [26:04] >> So you're saying don't fight during [26:06] pregnancy. [26:06] >> Yeah. Well, or just find more effective [26:08] ways to fight. You want to figure out [26:10] ways to [26:12] calm each other down, validate each [26:14] other, not necessarily, you know, amp [26:17] each other up and get into these really [26:19] negative spirals. I guess I want to push [26:21] on a point of nuance here because I'm [26:23] concerned that [26:24] >> expectant parents might be looking at [26:26] each other right now as they listen to [26:28] this episode. I imagine we've got a lot [26:29] of expectant parents listening and [26:31] they're thinking, "Fuck, we had a fight [26:32] last week and we got the birth coming up [26:35] in a couple of months." [26:36] >> Yeah, there's nothing wrong with [26:38] fighting. In fact, I'm a big believer [26:40] that it's good to air out your concerns [26:42] and grievances. What we were looking at [26:45] specifically were negative conflict [26:47] behaviors. [26:48] >> Okay? things like criticizing, showing [26:50] contempt, [26:52] um stonewalling, so like refusing to [26:54] listen to see the other person's [26:56] perspective. Actually, one of my really [26:58] smart grad students is working on a [27:00] project right now where he looks he's [27:02] looking at like what is kind of like a [27:05] magic ingredient that helps couples [27:07] shift from being negative with each [27:09] other to being positive with each other [27:11] during these conflict tasks. He's like [27:13] literally looking at the same task and [27:16] he's finding the ingredient is [27:17] validation. So just conveying to your [27:21] partner, I understand what you're [27:23] saying. I see where you're coming from. [27:26] I'm right here with you. I get it. Like [27:29] those kinds of behaviors make a huge [27:31] difference because they sort of take [27:33] like a lot of the tension and [27:35] frustration out of the conversation. As [27:37] soon as you feel really heard by your [27:39] partner, you you know the wind is a [27:41] little bit out of your sails for being [27:43] furious. [27:44] >> I sometimes worry that a lot of people [27:47] are waiting for perfection [27:51] >> before they step into the next season of [27:54] parenthood. Maybe I'm guilty of this [27:56] myself a little bit to some degree. I [27:58] think me and my partner talk about this [27:59] sometimes, me and my fiance about like [28:02] it doesn't feel like there's ever going [28:03] to be a perfect time to have kids. [28:04] >> Yeah. when you look at the nature of my [28:06] life and her life, you go, "Look, crazy [28:07] crazy schedules. Um, there really is no [28:10] time right now." Um, but I reflect and [28:12] go, "Well, everything that I do now, [28:14] including this podcast, at the time that [28:16] I did the first episode, there was no [28:18] time, but I made the time." [28:20] >> Um, and I sometimes worry that as as [28:23] young people, we are in a culture that [28:26] is waiting for um more perfection than [28:30] than is coming in terms of our romantic [28:33] partner or our circumstances. And of [28:34] course there is a a fundamental sort of [28:37] basis of security that everybody needs [28:38] to be able to bring um a life into the [28:41] world and often people don't have that. [28:43] >> Yeah. [28:43] >> Um but I'm wondering what your thoughts [28:45] are on that. [28:46] >> Yeah. I mean I had this conversation [28:47] with my grad school adviser. I said I [28:49] would love to have kids. What do you [28:51] recommend? When is the right time? And [28:53] she laughed and she said there is no [28:56] right time. You just have to do it. You [28:58] just have to make it work because once [28:59] the baby shows up, you'll figure it out. [29:02] And that was tremendously good advice [29:04] and and you know led me to start having [29:06] kids within the next few years after [29:09] that conversation. [29:10] >> Really? [29:10] >> Yeah. Yeah. I was like, "Okay, I guess [29:12] it's I'm just going to go for it. I'm [29:13] going to make it work." And it was hard, [29:15] >> but we did in fact figure it out. And I [29:18] think, you know, when you optimize [29:20] everything and you feel like you need [29:23] the perfect conditions, I need to own a [29:25] house. It has to be this many bedrooms. [29:28] I need, you know, this level of [29:30] stability. Yes. All those things are [29:32] terrific, but historically, you know, [29:35] people had kids young and you know, [29:39] often they found that having kids gave [29:41] them a really strong impetus to get [29:44] those things together. We used to think [29:45] about having kids as like a cornerstone [29:47] of a life. It's like a foundation. You [29:49] know, you do that and then you sort of [29:51] build your career and everything else. [29:52] Now we kind of think of it as like a [29:54] capstone. It's like your crowning [29:56] achievement. you've got everything [29:58] perfectly set and now it's time to have [30:00] kids. And I think the problem with that [30:02] is first of all, our biology doesn't [30:04] always agree. You know, we can sort of [30:06] lose our our best window in which to [30:07] have kids. And I also think like having [30:11] kids isn't just an individual [30:13] responsibility. We need to be thinking [30:15] about it as it's a collective [30:17] responsibility. It's societal. We are an [30:19] alo parenting species. So what that [30:22] means, we're we're cooperative breeders. [30:24] We raise our kids in community. That's [30:26] how we evolved. That's if you look at [30:27] hunter gatherers, that's how they raised [30:30] their kids. We are not designed to do [30:32] this in isolation. And and I think, you [30:35] know, when you think about like what [30:37] does a healthy society provide for [30:38] parents to reduce stress, right? Like [30:41] generous maternity and paternity leaves, [30:44] you know, job protections, child care. [30:46] Like I'm a big believer in having strong [30:48] policies that make it easier to have [30:51] kids [30:52] >> because I think in the absence of those [30:53] policies you feel like it's your job to [30:56] get everything completely lined up and [30:59] that time might never come especially [31:01] not in a you know tempestuous economy [31:04] >> and I think we're seeing some of the [31:06] symptoms of exactly what you've [31:07] described there. A landmark 2024 study [31:10] published in the Lancet projects that by [31:12] the year 20100, [31:15] 97% [31:16] of all countries and territories will [31:19] have fertility rates too low to sustain [31:21] their populations. The global fertility [31:23] rate has plummeted from an average of [31:25] five children per woman in 1950 to just [31:27] 2.2 today. According to the CDC and Pew [31:30] Research data, the US total fertility [31:33] rate just hit an all-time recorded low [31:35] of 1.6. This is far below the [31:39] replacement rate of 2.1 children per [31:42] couple, I guess. [31:43] >> Yeah. [31:44] >> Required to keep the population stable [31:46] without immigration. CDC data shows [31:49] total US birth rates dropped yet again [31:51] by 1% in 2025, falling to roughly 3.6 [31:55] million babies, continuing a nearly two [31:58] decade downfall slide since the Great [32:00] Recession. And lastly, because the [32:02] fertility rate is crashing in [32:03] high-income nations, but remaining [32:05] comparatively high in specific lowincome [32:08] regions, it is predicted a massive shift [32:10] in human demographics will take place. [32:12] And by 201, 100, one in every two [32:16] children born on the planet will be born [32:18] in subsaharan Africa. [32:21] >> It's all quite um all quite shocking to [32:24] hear, isn't it? I think [32:25] >> Well, I mean, [32:26] >> inconceivable. I thought we'd growing up [32:28] everyone was talking about uh too too [32:29] many people being on the planet, [32:30] >> right? There was this narrative of the [32:32] population bomb which was this really [32:34] popular theory in the '60s that we had [32:36] too many children. [32:37] >> Yeah. [32:38] >> And we needed to, you know, adopt [32:40] contraception and we needed to prevent [32:42] too many children from being born. We [32:44] all took that too literally and maybe [32:46] overcorrected cuz now you have this [32:48] population drop. And it's concerning [32:51] because what you don't want is a society [32:53] with what's called an inverse age curve [32:56] which means that you have many more old [32:58] people than young people [33:00] >> because you know then you don't have [33:02] enough caregivers for the older people. [33:04] You don't have enough people to sustain [33:06] the economy. [33:07] >> You don't have innovators. You don't [33:10] have you know the folks who are sort of [33:12] building your future. You've depopulated [33:14] that and you have a very aging [33:16] population and that can create a lot of [33:18] instability. [33:20] So I I think we need to be thinking [33:22] about, you know, how do we make [33:25] parenting easier and more desirable for [33:29] young people because I think that we've [33:31] managed to market it as an undesirable [33:34] choice. [33:35] >> How does how do we make it easier and [33:37] more desirable for young people? [33:39] >> So I think part of it is the [33:40] conversation we're having right now [33:42] where we're talking about the meaning, [33:43] the purpose, the benefits that you can [33:45] get from your relationships with others. [33:48] I think that we need a cultural reframe [33:50] around care to raise the value of care. [33:53] One of the reasons I'm interested in [33:55] fatherhood is because I think seeing men [33:58] as talented caregivers kind of unlocks [34:01] this appreciation we have for the [34:03] importance of care. [34:05] >> The shift you described your brother [34:07] undergoing where he went from [34:08] transactional, how can I make the most [34:10] money to my kids matter, how can I spend [34:13] the most time with them? [34:14] >> Yeah. I think is a is a really valuable [34:17] shift in purpose that you know at scale [34:21] would make societies healthier and more [34:23] empathetic. [34:24] >> So there's like two things I think are [34:26] worth saying here from my perspective. [34:27] The first is I think it's important that [34:30] we express the fact that a not everybody [34:32] can have kids because of you know [34:34] reasons beyond their control. I think [34:36] the second thing is not everybody wants [34:38] or should should want to have kids you [34:39] know depending on their circumstance. [34:41] Um, and the third thing is that I do [34:45] feel in my personal circumstances, um, [34:48] when I think about what I want from my [34:49] life, again, this is about me, I do feel [34:51] tremendously positively jealous of his [34:54] life. [34:55] >> And that's it's a strange thing because, [34:57] you know, he has a couple more gray [34:58] hairs than me, even though he's only a [34:59] year older. So, you know, everything in [35:01] life is a trade-off. But the like deep [35:03] sense of meaning and purpose that even I [35:05] experience when those kids are here like [35:06] they were at my house for the last [35:08] couple of weeks and it's it's everything [35:10] seems yeah incomparable in in terms of [35:13] like meaning to these beautiful [35:17] children. [35:18] >> Yeah. They're just endlessly curious and [35:21] fascinating [35:22] and you know there's very little you can [35:24] get from scrolling on a screen that you [35:27] know that to me is as fulfilling as what [35:30] you can get from watching a baby learn [35:32] something. [35:33] >> It used to be that working for yourself [35:35] was a massive massive risk. But that [35:37] world has completely changed. If you've [35:39] got a business idea that you can't stop [35:41] thinking about I think you owe it to [35:43] yourself to at least try and make it [35:45] happen. And that is where our show [35:47] sponsor Shopify comes in. 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[37:54] Am I right in thinking that parents have [38:00] different brains as it relates to [38:03] the brain being protected? [38:06] >> Yeah. So there's this really interesting [38:08] emerging body of research suggesting [38:10] that being a parent is neuroprotective [38:12] in late life. So there are studies, the [38:15] UK bioank is the biggest repository of [38:19] brain scans from people in their 50s and [38:21] 60s and they find that both men and [38:24] women who report having had more kids [38:26] have markers of a younger looking brain [38:28] age. So if you do a machine learning [38:32] algorithm that adjusts for your [38:34] chronological age and then you know [38:37] takes what the scans looks like and uses [38:39] that to estimate what they think your [38:41] brain age is. You look relatively [38:43] younger when you report having had more [38:45] kids. It seems like the greatest benefit [38:47] is at two or three kids. After that it [38:49] kind of levels off. You don't [38:50] necessarily get a big benefit from [38:53] having had six kids compared to having [38:54] had two. But it suggests that there is [38:58] something about the practice that you [39:00] get to your social brain and to your [39:02] empathetic brain that is really [39:04] beneficial to your, you know, brain [39:07] plasticity and functioning later in [39:09] life. [39:10] >> That's quite surprising because you'd [39:11] think, you know, parents go through a [39:12] lot of stress having lots of kids. So [39:14] you you'd assume that they'd be sleeping [39:16] less. You'd assume that would be bad for [39:18] the brain. But you're telling me there's [39:19] evidence that it's actually protective [39:20] to be a parent of two or three kids. [39:22] >> Yeah. I think it's healthy to think [39:24] about the short-term cost and then the [39:26] long-term benefit. [39:27] >> Okay. [39:27] >> So, you know, like there are plenty of [39:30] studies that have found that moment to [39:32] moment, parents of young kids say that [39:35] they're less happy. [39:36] >> Mhm. [39:36] >> They're more tired, they're more [39:38] stressed, they have more going on. We've [39:39] talked about the, you know, brain [39:41] changes, hormone changes. But then, you [39:44] know, if you look longer in later life, [39:47] people will report more fulfillment. So, [39:50] it's like you're you're doing something [39:52] that's not very fun. It's taxing. It can [39:54] be very isolating and yet you're kind of [39:57] reaping this longer term benefit in [39:59] terms of the power of those [40:01] relationships and that sense of [40:02] connection with other people. That [40:04] social integration and that practice [40:07] trying to understand others that is [40:09] really beneficial like it's a glue for [40:11] creating good relationships. [40:13] >> What is it exactly about being a parent [40:14] though that's going to make my brain [40:17] more protected when I get older? You [40:19] know, one of the theories I had was that [40:21] because, you know, when those three kids [40:22] were here, they had me playing all kinds [40:24] of bloody games. They wanted to play [40:25] hide-and-seek for seven hours. And it is [40:27] somewhat, you know, actually picking [40:28] them up all the bloody time cuz there's [40:30] three of them. And one of them's eight. [40:32] I can't really pick her up easily. The [40:33] other two I can get them up and then she [40:35] starts complaining that I've not picked [40:36] her up. So, I have to pick her up and [40:37] I'm like, "Wow, what a workout." [40:39] >> It is both a cognitive and a physical [40:41] workout [40:42] >> when they're around. [40:43] >> Yeah. Is it that like I'm building up [40:45] brain reserve because they're [40:47] challenging me and having tantrums and [40:48] they're wanting to play and they're [40:50] engaging me all the time? Is that why [40:52] it's protective? [40:52] >> I think it's like sudoko for your social [40:55] cognition, right? It's like you're doing [40:57] crossword puzzles but instead of like, [41:00] you know, the sort of practice that [41:01] you're getting for putting words [41:03] together, you're getting practice [41:04] understanding people's minds and [41:06] intentions and communicating and [41:07] responding to them and being sensitive [41:09] to them. And all of that is putting you [41:11] through a workout and it's also a full [41:13] body workout because kids are really [41:15] embodied. [41:16] >> And there's actually interesting [41:17] research that dads especially play in [41:20] these physically demanding kind of [41:22] vigorous ways with [41:24] >> Exactly. it was my job. My job was to [41:25] pick them up and throw them as high as I [41:27] possibly can. [41:27] >> Yeah. And kids love that. [41:29] >> Yeah. And then me now. And then like I [41:31] threw that and then it's like me now. [41:32] And then I just I was like I'm going to [41:34] lose weeks throwing these kids in the [41:35] air. But also I'm going to break [41:36] something. [41:37] >> Yeah. I mean, I think my husband never [41:39] had to see the chiropractor until, you [41:40] know, he became a dad and all of a [41:42] sudden you're throwing them up in the [41:43] air all the time. But that kind of play [41:45] is really good for kids because it's [41:48] testing their limits. It's challenging [41:50] them and it's actually helping them [41:51] build their risk tolerance. So like [41:54] think about like the the moment of fear [41:56] that you have when you're thrown up in [41:57] the air and then the relief when you're [41:59] caught. like [42:00] >> you're basically practicing your emotion [42:02] regulation skills on a small scale so [42:05] that when you're thrown into a scary [42:07] situation at school, you have a stronger [42:10] sense of confidence. [42:11] >> My other theory around why having [42:13] children would be neuroprotective for [42:15] the brain was around oxytocin. [42:17] >> And I say that cuz I sat with Robert [42:19] Waldinger who's done that sort of that [42:21] long Harvard study on human happiness. [42:23] And the conclusion is that one of the [42:25] single biggest predictors of longevity [42:27] is whether you have strong [42:28] relationships. And again, I I had [42:31] another scientist say to me that [42:32] oxytocin, the bonding chemical, is [42:34] neuroprotective. [42:36] >> So I imagine having three children is [42:39] going to equal a lot of oxytocin, which [42:40] is going to equal some [42:41] neuroprotectiveness. [42:43] >> I mean, we are social animals. We are [42:45] designed to bond with each other. We [42:48] pair bond. We bond with our kids. That's [42:51] really healthy. I love Waldinger [42:53] studies. I cite those in the book when I [42:55] talk about, you know, if you really want [42:57] to think about what creates longevity [42:59] and well-being late in life, look at [43:01] your relationships. And, you know, I [43:03] feel like he shows that really well with [43:05] this 80year study that he's been doing. [43:07] There are all these like brain changes [43:09] and hormone changes that are designed to [43:11] facilitate to help us build those bonds. [43:14] And that's a lot of what is sort of [43:15] going off in early parenthood is like we [43:18] are sort of reorganizing to become more [43:21] sensitive, more attentive caregivers. [43:23] It's not like, you know, some people are [43:26] just destined to be great parents and [43:27] some people aren't. It's like as we put [43:29] in the experience, as we get the [43:31] practice, we put in the reps, we're [43:34] building that brain and body that helps [43:36] make us really great sensitive [43:37] caregivers. And then that I think can [43:39] can transfer over to our other [43:41] relationships, too. If you've learned [43:43] how to calm a kid down from a tantrum, [43:45] you are probably going to be a very [43:47] effective manager at work. If you have, [43:50] you know, negotiate with three kids who [43:52] all want to pick you up at different [43:54] times, you know, you're probably going [43:55] to be a better problem solver in your [43:57] couple relationship. Like, those are [43:58] just skills that you're building that [44:01] can cross domains. [44:02] >> I was just looking at some of the the [44:03] research on this and it says that [44:05] research shows that oxytocin actively [44:07] downregulates harmful pro-inflammatory [44:09] cytoines in the brain. It acts as it [44:12] acts on the brain's immune cells um [44:15] making toxic inflammatory responses [44:18] lower. And studies on aging mice [44:20] demonstrated that long-term oxytocin [44:22] treatment concurrently enhanced the [44:24] brain's plasticity which directly [44:26] improved learning and made them better [44:30] with memory as they aged. And in terms [44:32] of Alzheimer's, in animal models of [44:34] Alzheimer's, oxytocin has been shown to [44:36] reduce the toxicity of amalloid beta [44:38] plaques, the toxic protein clumps that [44:41] are the hallmark of Alzheimer's disease, [44:43] which is fascinating. And that's um [44:45] that's the chemical that is produced [44:46] from bonding. [44:47] >> Yeah, that's a pair bonding chemical. [44:48] It's it's an affiliative neuropeptide. [44:51] So, it sort of helps us shore up our [44:53] social bonds. [44:54] >> Touch is really important, isn't it? [44:56] Yeah. [44:56] >> You know, it's such an important thing. [44:57] >> Yeah. My lab found actually that when [44:59] dads engage in more physical touch that [45:01] there's a type of touch that's called [45:03] proprioceptive touch which is exactly [45:05] what you were just describing like [45:07] picking babies up moving them around [45:09] playing with them like in space. It's [45:11] that sort of like vigorous touch that we [45:13] often associate with fathers. [45:15] >> When dads did more of that they [45:16] subsequently had higher oxytocin levels [45:18] when we did a blood draw in our lab and [45:20] that's been found in some other labs as [45:22] well. [45:22] >> Do you know Erica Commissar he's been on [45:24] my show? [45:24] >> I do. One of the things she says which [45:26] has been a little bit controversial is [45:28] that she's argued that placing children [45:29] under the age of three in daycare causes [45:31] profound separation trauma and elevates [45:34] cortisol to dangerous levels. So she's [45:36] quite against daycare. [45:38] >> I so I politely disagree. I both my kids [45:41] went to daycare where they thrived and I [45:43] am a big believer in this idea of alo [45:46] parenting which is this idea that we [45:48] collectively raise kids. We are designed [45:51] to help each other out and share care. [45:54] And so the model of single parent, [45:56] single child, isolated in a suburban [45:58] home is a very weird model in the [46:01] context of human history. And so I think [46:03] this idea that, you know, we can't [46:05] participate in shared care or that kids [46:07] can't do well in group care settings to [46:10] me is a little exaggerated. I do think [46:12] it's very true that it's about timing [46:14] and when is the right window to, you [46:17] know, put kids in group care settings. [46:20] it it's you know ideally when kids can [46:23] benefit from some social interaction [46:25] which is usually a little older in [46:26] toddlerhood. So you know 18 months and [46:29] beyond. Very young babies often do [46:32] better when they have a single [46:34] caregiver. They have a more stable [46:36] attachment figure that they can bond [46:38] with. But babies can form really strong [46:41] attachments with their dads with a [46:44] caregiver. It doesn't necessarily have [46:46] to be the case that mom is the only [46:49] person that needs to be present for [46:52] every moment of an infant's life because [46:54] I think that model is not terribly [46:56] sustainable for parents and parenting [47:00] stress is really bad for kids. You know, [47:02] and this goes back to the birth rate [47:03] conversation. I think we need to be [47:05] thinking about parenting in ways that [47:07] are sustainable that allow us to get [47:09] help. And we also, you know, if we [47:12] really think that we don't want kids in [47:15] a lot of early child care, we need to [47:17] support that with universal paid [47:21] parental leave, which is not available [47:23] for most parents in the United States. [47:25] So, a lot of moms are coming up against [47:28] a reality that doesn't fit with what [47:31] some of the parenting gurus are telling [47:33] them is the only way to raise their [47:34] kids. And I think that creates a lot of [47:37] anxiety. If you think about the early [47:38] phases of a child coming into the world [47:40] like year one, year two, year three, is [47:42] there any differences in when either [47:44] parent plays a different type of role? [47:47] >> There's a little bit of difference and [47:49] it sort of depends on, you know, what [47:51] the parent styles are and what the kid's [47:53] situation is. But there's a chapter in [47:56] my book where I talked with Richard [47:58] Reeves, who's done a lot of great work [48:00] on masculinity and manhood. And he says [48:04] he thinks dad should be able to get [48:06] paternity leave up to their kid's 18th [48:08] birthday because a lot of the time dads [48:11] find that their sort of best [48:12] relationship with their kid happens [48:14] later in childhood, even in adolescence. [48:17] You know, he talked about taking his [48:18] kids on trips, teaching his sons how to [48:21] drive. And so I think like dads can kind [48:23] of come in at different points along a [48:27] kid's development and provide a lot of [48:29] value. I think early in infancy if mom [48:32] is breastfeeding it's important for the [48:36] baby to get that sort of regular access [48:37] to milk. Um, you know, of course moms [48:40] can pump, dads can do feeding, but it is [48:43] often a source of challenge for couples [48:46] when a baby's first born and dads feel [48:49] like mom has a really big biological [48:52] head start. You know, she has had the [48:55] pregnancy, she's been able to build a [48:57] bond with the child. Breastfeeding is [48:59] like this magical formula that she can [49:01] give the baby to um help soothe. And so [49:04] I think a lot of dads struggle to find [49:06] their place in early parenthood in the [49:09] first year or two because they're like [49:11] what am I supposed to do? I you know it [49:13] takes a little while for dads to kind of [49:15] come online [49:16] >> as parents. You know dads need I think [49:19] some space and opportunity to figure [49:21] things out and you often get into this [49:24] dynamic where mom is kind of the default [49:27] parent in the early years and dads are [49:29] waiting for their instructions. when [49:31] you've gone out on the book train, [49:32] you've spoken to both fathers and [49:34] mothers. What is the like central point [49:36] of contention that you discover? [49:38] >> It's funny. I was just at a friend's [49:40] book club meeting and it was a mix of [49:42] couples. It was moms and dads. And the [49:44] thing that they all got into was this [49:46] concept of maternal gatekeeping and sort [49:49] of male malingering, which is this like [49:52] double-edged kind of. And so maternal [49:54] gatekeeping, it's a somewhat [49:55] controversial term, but it just refers [49:58] to anytime a mom consciously or [50:01] unconsciously sort of puts up a [50:03] roadblock to dad's fully participating [50:05] in parenting. And it could be as simple [50:08] as the baby's fussy and crying and mom [50:11] says, "Hand him to me. You know, I know [50:14] what to do." But over time, that kind of [50:17] kind of spiral into a pattern of mom [50:19] becomes the authority figure. dad is [50:22] seen as like the bumbling hapless kind [50:25] of appendage and and dads ultimately [50:28] feel like their contributions aren't [50:30] valued or you know mom doesn't really [50:32] want them to have a lot of independent [50:34] time maybe it's cuz mom doesn't trust [50:35] the dad right which is an area where I [50:38] think having communication and making [50:41] sure there's trust before the birth is [50:43] really important but you know the flip [50:45] side of maternal gatekeeping is what's [50:47] called weaponized incompetence or [50:49] husbandly mlingering [50:51] which is when you know dad who's a [50:54] totally competent let's say project [50:56] manager at work who can handle lots of [50:58] different spreadsheets and a whole [51:00] workflow suddenly doesn't know what to [51:02] put in the diaper bag or you know when [51:05] when we were at the book club meeting [51:06] one of the moms was saying their baby [51:09] was a couple days old there was a giant [51:11] diaper blowout and she had gone out for [51:13] a 10-minute walk and her husband called [51:15] to be like what do I do she's like I've [51:17] been a parent for exactly 2 days that's [51:19] exactly as long as you I No idea. You [51:21] got to figure it out. He's like, "But [51:22] the poop's on the wall." She's like, [51:24] "I'm sorry. You You can use the wipes." [51:27] You know, that same husband, she told me [51:29] later, was in charge of packing lunches. [51:31] And a certain point, he said, "Do you [51:33] give the kids anything but chicken [51:35] nuggets?" She said, "Well, there's [51:37] fruit. You can cut up some avocado, you [51:40] know, like throw stuff in." So, I think [51:42] that is sort of like when dads act like [51:44] they just have no idea and it's mom's [51:46] job to solve the problem. Mhm. [51:48] >> And so I think a lot of moms are sort of [51:49] frustrated with what they see as that [51:51] dynamic happening. At the same time, [51:53] I've talked to a lot of dads who said, [51:55] "I would love to have done more, but my [51:58] wife insisted on organizing everything, [52:01] scheduling everything, telling me what [52:02] to do. I never felt like I got an [52:05] opportunity to fully step up." So, I [52:07] think that's an area where couples [52:10] really need to iron some of this out [52:12] even before the baby comes. Mhm. [52:15] >> Who's going to do what and how are we [52:17] going to balance it in a way that we [52:19] both get some ownership, we both have [52:20] some opportunity and we can trust each [52:23] other. [52:24] >> Talking about that parents often report [52:27] is that post pregnancy there is a change [52:29] in their relationship and intimacy. Have [52:32] you done any studies on that? [52:33] >> Yes. And that is one of the most robust [52:36] findings in transition to parenthood [52:38] research is that there is a drop in [52:40] couple relationship satisfaction often [52:42] around the birth of a new baby. And it's [52:45] not surprising. You take two people who [52:47] are having fun together, you sleepd [52:49] deprive them, you give them a lot of [52:52] extra responsibility, and then a baby [52:54] who's crying and demanding that you know [52:56] they get out of bed at multiple times [52:58] during the night. So, you often get a [53:00] lot of conflict around who's going to do [53:03] what. Um, you know, who's more connected [53:06] to the baby and and you know, I think [53:10] it's one of those things where [53:12] forewarned is fore armed. If couples [53:15] know that this is going to be a risky [53:16] time for their relationship, they can do [53:18] more to shore up their communication [53:21] before a baby's born. [53:22] >> Have you ever quantified how different [53:24] the relationship is on the other side of [53:26] giving birth? We have definitely given [53:28] lots of different couple relationship [53:31] questionnaires and we've measured them [53:32] and we've looked at that dip and we've [53:34] seen that there is in fact a [53:36] statistically significant drop in [53:38] relationship quality [53:40] >> and sex life. [53:41] >> And sex life. Yeah. I mean because of [53:43] course, right? Like you've got an extra [53:46] person in your bed a lot of the time or [53:48] near your bed. [53:50] >> And if you have delivered the baby [53:54] vaginally, there's also a lot of stuff [53:56] that's sore and might need to get [53:58] stitched up and even more so if it was a [54:00] C-section birth. [54:01] >> And does that at some point go back to [54:03] pre-birth levels in terms of [54:06] relationship satisfaction? [54:07] >> Yeah. So there is a lot of variability [54:09] in couples relationship trajectories. So [54:11] there are some couples for whom [54:13] relationship quality continues to dip [54:16] and often the relationship dissolves. [54:19] There are also couples who report they [54:20] have a better quality relationship after [54:23] having parented together. You know [54:25] there's a richer relationship like I [54:27] feel that with my husband like I [54:29] appreciate him so much because I've seen [54:31] him negotiate with terrorists in the [54:33] form of our young children. So, you [54:35] know, I think like how well couples fare [54:39] is going to diverge sort of depending on [54:42] how well they can kind of muscle through [54:45] some of those early years. [54:47] >> Earlier on, you said that men experience [54:49] postpartum depression [54:52] um after the birth of their child [54:54] sometimes. And that's quite a [54:58] unconventional thing to hear. [54:59] >> When we think about postpartum [55:00] depression, typically it's in the [55:02] context of what the woman is [55:03] experiencing. Yeah. [55:04] >> Um, so it's quite interesting to hear [55:06] that that is a big issue for men as [55:08] well. [55:09] >> So technically postpartum depression [55:11] just means depression that occurs after [55:13] the birth of a baby. That's what [55:14] postpartum means. So that term [55:17] postpartum doesn't necessarily mean that [55:20] you know it's the person that's [55:21] delivered the baby. It just means this [55:22] is the time period after birth. And [55:25] there's some evidence that dad's [55:27] prevalence rate for depression, so in [55:30] new dads, it's about twice that of the [55:32] general population. So if you look at [55:35] non-fathering men, they have about half [55:37] the risk of depression as new dads. So [55:39] there's a big uptick in depression risk. [55:41] That doesn't mean that every new dad is [55:43] depressed. And new dads have lower [55:46] depression rates than new moms, just to [55:48] be clear. But it's also not a [55:50] competition. It's not a zero- sum game. [55:52] And I think there can be a lot of [55:54] constrnation understandably from moms [55:57] who feel like we have fought for the [56:00] term postpartum depression to be widely [56:02] recognized by the medical community. [56:05] We've advocated for this. Now that we've [56:08] succeeded, men are sort of trying to [56:10] take it over. And I'm sympathetic to [56:12] that argument. And a lot of moms have [56:13] said, "Why don't we call it paranatal [56:15] depression?" Fine. I think that's [56:16] totally okay. Parinatal just means [56:18] around the birth of a baby. And that's [56:21] legitimate, too. But if you think about [56:23] what are the risk factors for [56:24] depression, either in moms or in dads, [56:27] like in, you know, the period following [56:29] a baby's birth, it's a combination of [56:32] factors. It's multi-etermined, it's [56:34] hormone changes, it's sleep changes, [56:37] it's identity changes, it's relationship [56:40] changes, like relationship conflict, [56:42] changes to, you know, how you show up at [56:45] work, to your extended family. it can [56:47] reawaken childhood traumas that were [56:49] unresolved about how you yourself were [56:51] parented. So all of those things are [56:54] coming to the four and you're [56:57] preoccupied by what can be very [56:59] isolating and repetitive care for a [57:01] young baby and it creates kind of a [57:03] perfect storm of mental health risk. [57:05] >> You've um you've you've studied cortisol [57:08] changes um in couples, right? [57:11] >> Yeah. [57:11] >> And how they and how their their [57:12] cortisol interacts with each other. Is [57:15] there a biological divorce predictor in [57:18] terms of a specific way a couple's [57:19] cortisol syncs up or clashes in that [57:21] sort of first year of parenting that [57:23] tells you if their marriage is going to [57:25] fail before they realize it themselves? [57:27] >> Yeah. So, I have looked at cortisol [57:30] interconnection in my lab between [57:32] couples. So, how cortisol levels become [57:34] correlated over time. I found that when [57:37] couples had really strongly linked [57:39] levels of cortisol, they reported lower [57:43] marital satisfaction. And you'd think [57:45] like, okay, they've got more similar [57:46] hormones, that's probably a good thing. [57:48] We found the opposite in our lab. And I [57:51] think it's because you don't actually [57:53] want to be contagious to other people's [57:56] stress. When one person is really [57:58] stressed, it's helpful to have a partner [58:00] who can modulate that, who can calm you [58:02] down. So you don't necessarily want to [58:05] be exacerbating like amplifying the [58:08] stress state. [58:08] >> Interesting. This is fascinating. [58:11] >> There are some other labs that have [58:12] found that especially in a transition to [58:14] parenthood context, more synchrony in [58:18] cortisol can actually be a good thing if [58:20] you're looking from prenatal to [58:22] postpartum. [58:23] >> But outside of child birth. [58:25] >> Yes. So, this is interesting for me [58:28] because I was having a conversation with [58:29] someone the other day and she was [58:31] telling me that she emotionally is a [58:34] little bit more variant than her [58:36] partner. [58:36] >> Yeah. [58:36] >> And I was expressing a similar sentiment [58:38] saying that I think actually the reason [58:39] why my relationship works with my [58:42] fianceé Melanie is because [58:44] >> Mel is a little bit emotionally variant [58:46] and I'm kind of the like prefrontal [58:49] cortex sounding board [58:51] >> that kind of brings us back down. Yeah. [58:53] >> So her emotional variance is super [58:55] useful because she's almost like a [58:56] threat detector [58:57] >> in every regard. So if our relationship [58:59] is drifting a little bit or if we're [59:00] just she'll she'll know fast. [59:02] >> Whereas I take a little bit more time to [59:04] like to sort of have empathy to these [59:06] kinds of like shifts in our [59:08] relationship. She's like very in in [59:10] tune. [59:11] >> It's like a sixth sense she has. [59:13] >> Yeah. [59:13] >> However, sometimes that can mean some [59:17] things are harder to deal with [59:18] >> and maybe she's more prone to worry [59:20] sometimes. Mhm. [59:21] >> And I' I've often felt actually because [59:23] she's expressed this to me, she's [59:25] expressed the gratitude of me being able [59:27] to like bring her back to a place of [59:30] calm. [59:30] >> Yeah. [59:31] >> I've often felt that that's kind of like [59:32] my job. [59:33] >> Yeah. [59:33] >> And I've often thought that that our [59:35] relationship works because you do have [59:36] two different types of people. [59:40] >> Yeah. [59:40] >> And actually, this is not a plug, but [59:42] I'm an investor in a company called [59:44] Whoop. [59:44] >> And um on there they have the um stress [59:47] measure. Again, it's not a perfect [59:48] measure and nothing is a perfect [59:50] measure, but I was looking at our [59:52] differences in in the stress response [59:54] according to Whoop on the devices. Yeah. [59:56] >> And mine is very stable and hers is much [59:59] more unstable, [60:00] >> right? [60:01] >> But I I imagine that opposite's [60:04] attracted in this regard. [60:05] >> Yeah. I mean, it's interesting because [60:06] you could think if you were paired with [60:08] somebody who was super stable, life [60:10] might feel boring. If she was paired [60:12] with somebody who was really volatile, [60:14] life might feel too chaotic. So we [60:17] frequently are drawn to people who [60:19] compliment something about ourselves and [60:21] who are sort of different enough that it [60:24] can sort of expand our worldview. And I [60:27] I worked with a couple's therapist. This [60:30] is sort of his theory that it's often [60:33] the differences that drive us together [60:36] that can ultimately polarize us when [60:38] things go ary. So you can imagine a [60:41] future where she's always the emotional [60:44] one and you're always the calm one and [60:46] nobody gets a chance to break out of [60:47] that and that becomes really entrenched [60:49] in a way that like pulls you apart. But [60:52] you could also imagine a future where [60:54] you meet in the middle. [60:55] >> Yeah. [60:55] >> Like you become more emotionally [60:57] attuned. [60:58] >> Yeah. [60:58] >> And she becomes calmer and more stable. [61:01] >> Yeah. [61:01] >> And that's sort of the ideal, right? [61:03] That's what you want is you want to you [61:04] want to be joining around those [61:06] differences. [61:07] >> I would say that's definitely what's [61:08] happened. [61:08] >> Yeah. So that's good. So, it's a good [61:10] sign for your relationship. [61:11] >> Yeah. [61:11] >> Time to have a kid, [61:13] >> I think. So, [61:14] >> yeah, [61:14] >> I'm trying. [61:15] >> Good. [61:16] >> We froze our embryos. [61:17] >> Excellent. [61:18] >> So, we've got them in the freezer. [61:20] >> Fantastic. [61:20] >> Which is an really interesting process. [61:22] I think this is probably worth spending [61:24] some time on because I think I was [61:25] living under the assumption that like in [61:27] my early 30s, I could just sort of [61:28] decide when to have a kid and I could [61:30] just, you know, have sex during that [61:31] little window they talk about where [61:32] she's ovulating and the kids would [61:34] appear. It's not necessarily how it [61:35] works. Yeah. [61:36] >> Turns out. [61:36] >> No, it's actually a little trickier. [61:38] It's trickier than I expected. [61:39] >> There's actually a chapter in the book [61:40] where I talk about paternity [61:42] uncertainty. One of the things that's [61:43] really unique and interesting about [61:44] humans is we conceal our ovulation. [61:48] So that makes us different from a lot of [61:50] other animals where when a female is [61:53] fertile, you know, because she changes [61:56] color, she starts dancing in a certain [61:58] way, she smells different, right? Like [62:00] there are all these really obvious cues [62:02] and as a result, males sort of know [62:05] exactly what window to jump in on. And [62:08] because we conceal our ovulation as [62:10] humans, it's always a little bit murky. [62:12] >> Why do we do that? [62:13] >> For one thing, it encourages pair [62:15] bonding because you can't just as a man [62:18] like just show up like the one day that [62:20] it's time to cause a pregnancy and then [62:22] take off. [62:23] >> So you have to court a woman, you have a [62:25] lot of you need a lot of repeated [62:26] opportunities. So if a man actually [62:29] wants to cause pregnancy, he's much [62:32] better off sticking with one woman and [62:34] really investing in that relationship [62:36] than he is like going out every night to [62:38] find a different lady. We form stable [62:41] monogous relationships because that's [62:43] actually adaptive for spreading our [62:45] genetic material and it also reduces [62:48] aggression. So there's one theory that [62:50] it reduces rivalry between women. If you [62:54] know that one of the ladies in your [62:57] group is fertile and you have it out for [62:59] her, you want to take her out during her [63:02] fertile period, right? So, concealing [63:05] ovulation actually reduces that rivalry, [63:07] that aggression. [63:08] >> Okay. [63:09] >> Um, it also makes everybody a little bit [63:12] more invested in babies because no man [63:17] knows exactly who's caused which [63:19] pregnancies. And as a result, everybody [63:21] has a little bit of an altruistic stake [63:24] in the future of our children. [63:27] >> Do you I'm not sure if this is an area [63:29] of research you've covered, but and [63:31] maybe I'm asking for a friend here. [63:32] >> Yeah. [63:33] >> Do you know what increases the [63:34] probability of conceiving a child? Cuz I [63:37] think about this a lot in terms of [63:39] stress and feeling comfortable and all [63:41] these kinds of things. Like I'm often [63:42] thinking about like don't argue with [63:43] her, keep her safe, make her feel really [63:45] secure. [63:45] >> Yeah. I mean, I think those are all good [63:47] instincts. [63:48] >> Is there research on this? There is [63:49] research on reducing stress for sure, [63:51] right? Like we know that stress makes it [63:52] harder to conceive. Of course, the last [63:54] thing you want to tell someone who's [63:56] struggling to conceive is reduce stress [63:58] because that's so invalidating because [64:00] you're like, I'm stressed about how hard [64:02] it is to conceive. Like don't, you know, [64:04] telling somebody be less stressed is [64:07] frequently not that helpful. But I think [64:09] your intuition is right that you [64:10] probably want to make the environment [64:12] calmer and safer. And you know, like you [64:15] can optimize nutrition. There's a lot [64:17] you can do, but there's also a lot that [64:19] is, you know, not up to you and [64:22] sometimes more intervention is needed. [64:24] >> What advice would you have for new [64:26] fathers? [64:27] >> This is kind of like one of the themes [64:28] of my book. Great fathers are made not [64:30] born. You might feel like you don't have [64:33] the qualities to become an amazing dad, [64:36] but it's really about your time, your [64:38] investment, the practice that you get, [64:40] and the extent that you care. That is [64:43] going to shape you. It's going to build [64:45] a brain and it's going to build a body [64:47] that will make you a tuned-in parent. [64:50] You know, give yourself grace. Like the [64:52] transition to parenthood can be really [64:53] challenging, but you can become an [64:58] expert in your own child and there is a [65:01] reward there. You will find enrichment. [65:04] You will find meaning. You will [65:06] rediscover your priorities in a way that [65:08] will ultimately bring a lot of value. [65:12] I talk to new founders, they all carry [65:14] the same belief that the biggest threat [65:15] to their small business is having a bad [65:17] product. It's not the biggest threat [65:19] they face is hiring the wrong person for [65:21] their small team. Because bad hires put [65:23] the handbreak on growth and rapidly [65:26] infect company culture. And I get it. [65:28] When you're starting out, you need a [65:29] players to grow your company, but you [65:30] don't have 40 spare hours to spend [65:33] sifting through interviews. So, you hire [65:35] fast to fill the seat, but this ends up [65:36] costing you even more in the long term. [65:38] What any small business actually needs [65:39] is a reliable and efficient way to find [65:41] the right talent without stalling [65:42] momentum. That's where our long-term [65:44] sponsor LinkedIn and LinkedIn Hiring Pro [65:46] can help you. It streamlines the entire [65:48] hiring process from drafting a job [65:50] description to shortlisting candidates [65:52] and conducting AI powered interviews for [65:54] initial screenings. Nearly 60% of hirers [65:57] who've used this tool have found a [65:58] candidate to interview within a week. [66:00] Hire right the first time around and get [66:02] started by posting your first job for [66:04] free at linkedin.com/doac. [66:07] That's linkedin.com/doac. [66:09] And terms and conditions apply. There [66:11] should be a button just down below here. [66:13] And if it says subscribed, you're [66:15] already subscribed. If it says [66:16] subscriber, that means you're not yet. [66:19] And if you're not subscribed, please [66:20] could you do us a favor and hit that [66:21] button? It helps the show more than you [66:22] know. And according to the algorithm, [66:24] you're someone that watches our show, [66:26] but you haven't yet hit that button. [66:27] Thank you so much. [66:29] >> Well, you've done so many studies. [66:31] >> Yeah, probably too many. [66:32] >> What is it? What are the studies that we [66:34] haven't talked about that are most uh [66:36] >> were most formative or surprising for [66:39] you? [66:40] >> We did a study where we looked at coup's [66:43] plans for how they wanted to divide up [66:44] baby care. [66:45] >> Yeah. [66:46] >> So, we gave them this questionnaire that [66:48] we called a who does what where they [66:50] were given 10 common baby care tasks [66:53] like changing diapers, feeding a bottle, [66:55] and they indicated on a slider how much [66:57] mom was going to do and how much dad was [66:59] going to do. And then we brought them [67:01] back into the lab about six months after [67:03] birth. We had them do the same scale. [67:05] And it was really interesting because [67:06] couples weren't actually great [67:08] predictors of how much dad was going to [67:11] do. So every single couple expected dad [67:14] would do more before birth than dad was [67:16] actually doing after birth. And there [67:18] are a lot of reasons for that. That [67:19] doesn't mean that anybody's a villain. [67:21] It just means maybe mom got more time [67:23] off from work. Maybe she was [67:24] breastfeeding and so the baby, you know, [67:27] she was she was with the baby more, [67:28] right? Like there are a lot of reasons [67:29] why that is the case, but we found that [67:32] when dads were doing more, they reported [67:35] that they were happier in their couple [67:38] relationship. But one thing we looked at [67:41] actually was how moms and dads talked [67:44] about how they wanted to divvy up baby [67:46] care. We measured how many times did [67:49] they say the pronoun we compared to when [67:52] you use the pronoun I where you're [67:53] talking about yourself. When you're [67:55] using we, you're talking about, you [67:57] know, you and your partner, the more [67:59] weness the dads were showing, the more [68:04] happy they were in their relationship [68:05] after birth. So, their investment, their [68:08] willingness to chip in, even if they [68:11] didn't totally realize all their plans, [68:13] was still linked with their [68:14] satisfaction. And that was controlling [68:16] for how they felt about their partner [68:18] before birth. And it's a little [68:19] counterintuitive because you might [68:20] think, you know, if you get to sit back [68:22] and relax and your partner is doing [68:24] more, that's a winning strategy. [68:28] >> But it was actually the dads that did [68:29] more who told us they were happier. [68:31] >> If all goes well, next year I will be a [68:34] dad. [68:35] >> I hope so. [68:36] >> I hope so, too. [68:36] >> Yeah. [68:37] >> So, I've written on this sort of slide [68:39] in front of me here, advice for Steven. [68:42] And I would like you to give me some [68:43] advice, some actionable advice on, you [68:45] know, becoming a father, what I need to [68:47] do pre-post, during, [68:49] >> yes, [68:49] >> based on all the research that you have. [68:51] >> And I'm going to write it down. [68:52] >> Okay. So, first, take advantage of the [68:54] window before birth. [68:56] >> Yeah. [68:56] >> To work on your communication with your [68:58] partner. [68:59] >> Think about how you want to divide up [69:01] baby care. You know, a lot of the time [69:03] people say, "We'll just wing it once the [69:05] baby comes." And that can be a recipe [69:06] for frustration cuz moms feel like [69:09] they're doing everything. Dads feel like [69:10] they're shut out from care. So, you [69:12] know, have those conversations sooner. [69:14] >> So, have before the baby comes, have a [69:16] conversation about how we're going to [69:17] divy up responsibilities and make sure [69:18] both people are clear. [69:19] >> Exactly. And think about too like what [69:22] are we going to do about our extended [69:24] families? What religion do we want to [69:25] raise our kids in? What do we think [69:27] about education? Like if you haven't had [69:28] those conversations about values, have [69:31] them now [69:32] >> because then I think you're going to [69:34] ward off conflict that is going to crop [69:36] up later on. Okay. The other thing is, [69:38] and I would do this before birth too, [69:40] build up your social support network. A [69:42] lot of men's primary confidant, their [69:44] primary intimate relationship is with [69:46] their partner. After the baby comes, mom [69:49] is really preoccupied and dads are like, [69:51] "What about me?" So, you know, we know [69:54] when we look at depression research that [69:56] having a strong social support network [69:57] is one of the best buffers. [69:59] >> So, you want to be thinking, "What are [70:01] my friendships that I can count on and [70:04] who can help me?" We really need [70:06] community support. So, think about how [70:08] can my mom help? How can my friend help? [70:11] And maybe like, you know, your brother's [70:13] got his own kids. He's too busy to take [70:16] yours, but he can help in some other [70:18] way, right? Like, how do you plug the [70:20] people into your life into what your [70:22] social support needs might be? [70:24] >> I think a lot of people would cite this [70:26] as being one of the reasons why they [70:28] haven't had kids yet. Now, more so than [70:30] ever, we don't live in communities. [70:32] >> Yes. Now more so than ever, we are [70:34] lonely, isolated, living in four small [70:36] white walls in a city where we can [70:37] barely pay our rent and we're struggling [70:39] enough to take care of oursel. [70:41] >> Um, our parents often live far away now [70:43] because the we're living in such a [70:45] globalized world. [70:46] >> So feeling like you don't have the [70:48] support around you to give birth when [70:50] you're like scraping through in a job is [70:52] it doesn't make a lot of logical sense [70:53] as to why people won't choose to have [70:54] children. [70:55] >> Yeah, it's a huge problem and I think a [70:57] lot of parents really struggle with [70:58] feeling lonely and isolated. And so when [71:01] I say, you know, like take the time [71:02] before birth to build up your social [71:04] support network, that doesn't just mean [71:06] with your existing friendships and [71:08] family, right? Like sometimes we end up [71:10] far away from those people. It also [71:12] means build community with other [71:15] expectant parents, with your neighbors, [71:18] right? Like we thrive when we build [71:20] community. One nice thing about becoming [71:22] a parent is there are a lot of [71:24] mechanisms for doing that. There are [71:26] many more for moms than there are for [71:28] dads. So when I became a mom, I could go [71:30] to breastfeeding support group. I could [71:32] go to baby wearing support group. I [71:34] could go like walk around the park with [71:36] the Silver Lake Mom's Club. Like I had [71:38] all these things to plug into. Dads did [71:41] not have as many of those organic kind [71:44] of community building structures [71:45] available. So you know, take advantage [71:48] of the ones that are there. I just [71:50] talked to these guys that founded the [71:51] Daddy Stroller Social Club. They've got [71:54] chapters all over the country. they just [71:56] meet up and they go for stroller walks [71:58] with their kids and it's like an amazing [72:01] way for dads to connect with each other. [72:03] So, so build that as much as you can. [72:05] So, [72:06] >> okay, that's number two. [72:06] >> What do we say? So, build your friends, [72:08] work on your couple relationship, think [72:10] about how you want to balance things out [72:13] when the baby does come. First of all, [72:15] protect your sleep. That's really hard. [72:17] Everyone says sleep when the baby [72:19] sleeps. Your sleep is going to be [72:20] totally scrambled. But when you have [72:22] healthy routines and good sleep hygiene [72:24] even before birth, you're going to fare [72:26] better after birth. So, [72:27] >> but I can hear parents screaming through [72:29] the cameras saying easier said than [72:32] done. Yeah, I'm not trying to gaslight [72:33] anyone, but I think when you have a good [72:35] foundation of healthy sleep hygiene, [72:37] you're probably going to So, things like [72:39] really obvious things like don't be on [72:41] devices right before it's time to go to [72:43] bed, like dim the lights, like make sure [72:45] your room is the right temperature, like [72:47] try to dial in your sleeping environment [72:49] because the sleep is going to be the [72:50] hardest thing, the first thing to go. [72:52] bit of a paradox here that when you're I [72:54] guess stressed or sleep deprived, we [72:56] often reach for things that are [72:58] >> dopamine dopamogenic I think the term is [73:00] which is like foods that maybe are a [73:02] little bit higher in um you know not the [73:04] good stuff. [73:04] >> Yeah. Yeah. [73:05] >> And this there's almost a paradox there. [73:07] >> Yeah. It's a total vicious cycle for [73:08] sure. And I would say like think about [73:10] becoming a parent like you're preparing [73:11] to run a marathon. You know, not to the [73:13] point that you become totally neurotic [73:15] about it, but think about being healthy, [73:17] having things that are going to prepare [73:19] your body for this big shakeup that [73:21] you're going to undergo. And then once [73:23] the baby comes, like take any [73:24] opportunity to bond. Like I think a lot [73:26] of men feel like I'm going to avoid as [73:29] many diapers as possible. [73:32] Changing diapers seems gross, but it's [73:33] also a chance to make eye contact with [73:35] your baby and like really get to know [73:39] them in a different way. So, you know, [73:41] jump into those baby care opportunities. [73:44] Like find your own style and, you know, [73:47] make sure like the more windows you have [73:48] to bond, the better you're going to feel [73:51] like you know your baby and the more [73:52] confident you're going to be. And then I [73:54] would say give yourself grace. like know [73:55] that this is hard, know that it's [73:57] temporary, and know that you are, you [74:00] know, you're sacrificing in the short [74:02] term for a lot of long-term benefit. [74:04] >> One of the things that might be a little [74:05] bit absent from this list is an effort [74:08] towards holding my relationship together [74:11] >> with my fiance. [74:13] >> Also important. I mean, that's part of [74:15] what you want to do before the baby's [74:17] born, right? You want to be shoring up [74:18] the communication and having those hard [74:20] conversations. [74:21] >> The date night thing, you know, [74:22] >> date night's probably going to be the [74:23] first thing out the window. Yeah, that [74:25] is a that is a thing that goes out the [74:26] window. But you know what? One nice [74:28] thing about newborns is they'll sleep [74:30] pretty much anywhere. So, you know, when [74:32] our babies were little, my husband and I [74:34] would just like put the baby in a car [74:36] seat and go eat in a nice restaurant. [74:38] >> You know, it was like the last time we [74:40] got to do that for a few years because [74:41] once they start walking around, they're [74:44] much less portable. [74:45] >> So, like take advantage of some of the [74:48] early baby stuff that you can do to [74:50] travel and to make sure that you get [74:51] out. [74:52] >> That advice was all advice for me. Yeah. [74:54] >> For Steven. [74:55] >> Yeah. [74:55] >> Would there be any different advice if [74:57] my fiance was sat here and you were [74:58] advising her? [74:59] >> Oh, that would be fun. [75:00] >> Yeah. [75:01] >> Yeah. I mean, I would say that sort of [75:03] giving yourself grace thing would go [75:04] double, right? It's like know that [75:07] Steven is going through a lot and then [75:09] you need to know that she's going [75:10] through a lot. Like her whole sense of [75:13] self is going to be an upheaval because [75:17] like we go through this thing, it's [75:19] called metricance. There's also patra [75:22] essence which is just the idea that [75:24] becoming a parent kind of you know [75:26] changes your priorities. It changes your [75:28] sense of who you are. So she's going to [75:31] go through a lot of transformation as [75:32] you will and so sort of like hanging in [75:35] with each other during that period of [75:37] transformation is really fundamental [75:39] like sometimes couples can grow apart or [75:42] dads are jealous that the baby's getting [75:44] all the attention. He feels left out. [75:46] Moms are frustrated that dad isn't doing [75:48] more to help. Like all of those things [75:50] can lead to conflict and you can know [75:53] that those are going to be hot spots for [75:55] conflict and try to talk your way [75:57] through them even ahead of birth. [76:00] >> Derby, what what's the um most important [76:02] thing we haven't talked about that we [76:04] should have talked about as it relates [76:05] to your work for all the people that are [76:07] listening now that have gotten this far [76:08] in the conversation? [76:09] >> Yeah, let's see. We didn't talk about [76:11] dadbod. [76:13] >> Dadbod, [76:14] >> that's a fun topic. [76:15] >> Okay, [76:16] >> something we frequently joke about. We [76:17] think about like Homer Simpson, but it's [76:20] been found across both animal and human [76:23] studies that males tend to gain weight [76:24] when they become fathers. [76:26] >> Is that just the cortisol in the lack of [76:27] sleep? [76:28] >> So, it's a mix of all the hormones. It's [76:29] prolactin is a hormone we haven't talked [76:32] much about, but that is rising, sleep [76:34] deprivation, [76:36] um changes in physical activity, changes [76:39] in our diet, right, because of stress [76:41] and some of the dietary choices that [76:43] we're making. Like I joke in the book [76:45] like my husband and I basically ate [76:46] peanut butter pretzels from Trader Joe's [76:48] like every day that our kids were [76:50] babies. So, you know, a lot of stuff is [76:53] happening all at once. It's kind of a [76:54] perfect storm. And yet, you know, [76:56] there's evidence even from animal models [76:59] that you see weight changes around the [77:02] transition to fatherhood. [77:05] >> These ones here. [77:06] >> Yeah. Yeah. These are the tamarind [77:07] monkeys. So, there was a study that [77:10] looked at tamarind monkeys that were [77:11] expecting offspring and um it fed them a [77:16] standardized diet and it compared them [77:18] to tamarind monkeys who didn't have [77:20] partners that were expecting offspring. [77:23] And they found that the expectant dads [77:24] actually gained more weight even though [77:26] they were eating the same diet as the [77:28] comparison monkeys who weren't about to [77:31] have a baby. And so there were these [77:34] like body changes that happened even [77:36] before birth in the male monkeys. [77:38] >> Why would that be? [77:40] >> It's probably adaptive. Like if you [77:42] think about increasing your body size to [77:45] be more imposing and to better ward off [77:48] attacks from rivals. And you also want [77:51] to buffer in case there's scarcity, [77:53] right? Like you want extra fat. It looks [77:56] less adaptive in a kind of modern [77:57] context when we have a very obesogenic [78:01] environment [78:02] >> and you know you can start to see more [78:04] cardio metabolic risk. But one thing I [78:08] talk about in the book is women actually [78:10] like a dadbot. Studies of single women [78:13] have found that you know if you show [78:14] them a series of body types the dadbot [78:16] is the most popular. you know, sort of [78:18] like a mildly, [78:20] you know, kind of like uh lightly [78:22] marbled male torso. [78:24] >> Lightly marbled torso. [78:26] >> I don't know if you remember like the [78:27] Ali Mirrors, the British singer who like [78:29] did a big tone up at the gym and posted [78:31] selfies, you know, he had like a 12-pack [78:34] or something and all these women online [78:36] were saying like, "We liked the before [78:38] picture." [78:39] >> So, you know, there's something to be [78:40] said for [78:41] win [78:41] >> the reproductive signal of a dad bot. [78:44] But part of it is if you show women [78:45] torsos of different kinds of male body [78:48] types, the the sort of dad bod is one [78:52] that women say he's more likely to be a [78:54] hands-on father. He's probably going to [78:56] be more attentive. He's going to be more [78:58] caring. And those are things that are [79:00] really attractive to women. [79:02] >> And that's proven by science. So if I go [79:04] out and get a dad bod, you're telling me [79:06] the science is says I'm going to be more [79:07] attractive. [79:07] >> Yeah. Go for it. Yeah. [79:09] >> Okay. [79:09] >> Yeah. Worth a shot. [79:11] >> See what my fiance says. [79:12] >> Yeah. [79:14] How much of your work has been [79:16] influenced by this? [79:20] >> Oh, this is my dad. So much of my work. [79:23] My parents got divorced when I was nine [79:26] and my dad became a solo parent to me [79:30] and my brothers. Um, my parents [79:32] ultimately worked out a joint custody [79:35] schedule. So, we were one week with my [79:37] dad, one week with my mom. We switched [79:39] off every week as I was growing up. and [79:42] he became a really great dad. Like he [79:44] had a major learning curve. He wasn't a [79:46] hands-on dad. He was like an 80s dad [79:48] who, you know, showed up for the big [79:51] stuff. But when he was alone with the [79:54] four of us, he suddenly had to be the [79:57] guy making our meals, the guy helping us [79:58] with our homework, the guy driving us to [80:01] sports practice, he really rose to the [80:03] occasion, and I'm still really close [80:04] with him. [80:05] >> How do you think that's influenced your [80:06] your overarching mission and your focus [80:08] on, you know, dads and parenting? Yeah. [80:11] So, I've always been really interested [80:12] in families and you know, they say like [80:14] psychologists are always trying to fix [80:16] the thing that went wrong in their [80:17] lives. So, I'm probably like as someone [80:19] who's interested in couples and families [80:20] wanting to reverse like my own parents' [80:23] divorce. But I also like seeing my dad [80:26] be a great caregiver and then realizing [80:29] how much parenting research is solely [80:31] focused on moms makes me realize there's [80:33] like a real gap in the literature. like, [80:36] you know, men play a really important [80:38] role in parenting and I think deserve a [80:40] lot of recognition and respect for that. [80:42] >> It's it's interesting that I I'd never [80:44] heard before that there's really any [80:46] changes that took place in a [80:47] >> Yeah. [80:48] >> man's brain when a man becomes a [80:51] >> father. [80:52] >> I mean, I think it's not something that [80:53] gets talked about a lot, which is why I [80:55] wanted to write about it. [80:57] >> But, you know, we are dynamic. We're [80:59] plastic. We humans adapt. and becoming a [81:03] parent is one of the biggest [81:05] transformations that you can experience. [81:08] >> Have you ever done any research on the [81:10] impact that divorce has on children? [81:12] >> Not a lot. No. Which is ironic cuz I am [81:15] a child of divorce, but um there is some [81:18] research about it and there's definitely [81:21] some evidence that it can create some [81:23] challenges for kids. [81:25] >> And have you ever done any research on [81:27] or do you have a view on whether humans [81:28] are supposed to be monogamous? [81:31] >> Well, okay. So the best way to describe [81:33] humans is we're sort of monogamous with [81:35] benefits. And you know, you can see that [81:38] if you look at the difference in our [81:39] body size, so like male humans are a [81:43] little bit bigger than female humans, [81:45] but they're not like twice as big. [81:47] >> So like gorillas, male gorillas are way [81:50] bigger than female gorillas. There's [81:52] like a huge size differential. And you [81:54] know that says that you know like the [81:56] male gorilla model is one of like herum [82:00] dominance right fully monogamous animals [82:04] are exactly the same size like prairie v [82:06] males and females are almost exactly the [82:08] same size as each other. They have like [82:10] no size differential. So that's like [82:12] like real pair bonding. [82:14] >> So we're sort of like somewhere in [82:16] between. There are a lot of societies [82:17] with different models. You have [82:19] polygamy, which is one man with lots of [82:22] women. You have polyandri, which is more [82:26] rare. That's one woman with lots of men. [82:28] Only a few societies that have that [82:30] model. But monogamy is actually the most [82:32] common across lots of different cultures [82:34] and societies. And I think it because [82:36] it's it brings us some benefits in part [82:38] because of the concealed ovulation piece [82:40] that helps motivate men to be more [82:42] invested in a single partner, but also [82:45] because it generally is good for kids. [82:47] What are you um what are you concerned [82:49] about? [82:50] >> I mean our future as a planet. [82:54] >> Which part of our future as a planet? [82:55] >> So I I definitely am concerned about [82:58] what we've been talking about the [82:59] declining birth rate. [83:01] >> I'm concerned not just because it [83:03] portends problems, you know, in our [83:06] future societies, but because it what it [83:08] signals, I think about young people's [83:10] hopefulness for the future, [83:13] >> right? I think when you look at the [83:14] world and you say, "I don't want to [83:16] reproduce. I don't want to bring [83:18] children into this world," it to me [83:20] suggests like a a nihilism and a [83:22] darkness that concerns me. Like marriage [83:25] rates are dropping. Like young men and [83:28] young women seem to be on different [83:31] paths. Part of that is like we're in [83:33] these algorithmic echo chambers where [83:35] the kind of content that we're absorbing [83:37] is really different. So you see [83:39] increasing political polarization not [83:42] just in the US but in other countries [83:43] too. It's like there's more adversarial [83:47] kind of interaction [83:49] and I don't think that's good. You know [83:51] going back to the idea that having a [83:53] healthy late life is about building [83:56] strong relationships and that that's a [83:59] good predictor of our longevity. I want [84:02] us to be in a world where we see [84:03] ourselves as being on the same team as [84:05] each other. [84:06] >> Are you hopeful? Yeah, I'm super [84:08] hopeful. I'm a very optimistic person. [84:10] >> What would have to happen for that to be [84:11] the case? [84:12] >> I'm hopeful. I have teenagers, you know. [84:14] I'm hopeful for them. I think they're [84:16] going to take over and hopefully they'll [84:18] be wiser than my generation has been. [84:21] That's them with my husband. That's from [84:24] a few years ago. [84:24] >> I was going to say this, your boy's a [84:26] bit older now, right? [84:27] >> Yeah, he's 14 now. [84:28] >> 14. Okay. [84:29] >> Yeah. [84:30] >> Dr. Darby Saxby, PhD. [84:32] >> Yep, that's me. We have a closing [84:34] tradition on this podcast where the last [84:35] guest leaves a question to the next [84:36] guest not knowing who they're leading it [84:38] for. [84:38] >> Oh [84:39] >> question left for you is people are [84:42] increasingly distrustful and lonely. If [84:44] you could flip a switch and make one [84:47] systemic change to turn the tide, what [84:50] would it be? [84:52] >> To make people more socially connected. [84:55] Well, I think building a better policy [84:58] environment around parenting. So, I'm a [85:00] big advocate for parental leave to [85:03] protect time and space to bond. I think [85:06] that would be a really positive change [85:07] for a lot of parents in the US who don't [85:09] get access to leave. [85:11] >> Well, ju as a Brit, you know, I've moved [85:13] over here and we we we you know, we're [85:15] hiring a big workforce here in Los [85:17] Angeles, New York, and around the United [85:19] States, [85:20] >> but hearing about the parental leave [85:21] policies here is like mindblowing. [85:24] >> What is the current parental leave [85:25] policy in the United States? Yeah. So we [85:27] are a huge outlier compared to the rest [85:29] of the world, right? So like we do not [85:33] have a universal paid leave policy for [85:35] parents. That's at the federal level. [85:38] There are some different policies at the [85:39] state level. So every state has slightly [85:41] different policies, but frequently [85:44] what's most available to parents is [85:46] unpaid disability leave that's provided [85:49] by the state. It's not available to [85:51] every parent. If you're a shift worker, [85:53] if you're a gig worker, if you're at [85:55] Walmart, you probably don't have access [85:58] to that paid leave. And as a result, a [86:00] lot of new moms in the US are back to [86:02] work within a couple of weeks of birth, [86:04] which I think is totally bonkers when [86:06] you think about what does it take to [86:08] build a healthy society. [86:09] >> The baseline federal protection is the [86:12] family medical leave act. It guarantees [86:14] up to 12 weeks of unpaid [86:16] >> Yep. [86:17] >> leave. Your employer must also maintain [86:20] your group health insurance during this [86:21] this time. So, they don't pay you. [86:24] >> Yeah. Yeah. And that's a big problem [86:27] because it's expensive. [86:29] >> They're really expensive [86:29] >> to raise kids. [86:31] >> It's so surprising that they haven't [86:32] passed law uh in this direction because [86:34] it's not a partisan dispute. [86:37] >> No, that's what's so surprising is that [86:39] it's one of the best polling issues. [86:42] It's bipartisan, right? Both Republicans [86:44] and Democrats say they support leave. I [86:47] think it's something like 80% [86:49] >> of Americans are in favor of it. Yet, we [86:52] haven't found the political will to make [86:54] it happen. [86:54] >> Well, maybe we need a woman in office. [86:58] >> Well said. [87:00] >> Or just a man, which [87:01] >> or just a just an empathetic man. Let's [87:04] get hands- on dads [87:06] to rise to power and moms. [87:09] Thank you so much for writing this book [87:11] because you're shining a light on so [87:13] many issues that have been mystified [87:16] through I guess pop culture in a way, [87:17] but you're you're bringing to light the [87:19] reality that men are both important in [87:22] the raising of children, but also you're [87:24] you're doing it through a lens of [87:25] storytelling through adjacencies and [87:27] different animals and through science in [87:30] such a rigorous way. And I think it [87:32] starts a conversation about the upsides [87:34] of being a parent. [87:35] >> And those are, as we said, they're less [87:37] obvious than the pain of being a parent. [87:39] >> Yeah. [87:39] >> And I think the more we can sort of [87:41] rebalance that equation, the more likely [87:43] we are to have to raise a healthy [87:44] generation of of kids. And again, I do [87:47] pause a lot because I realize I've got [87:48] friends close to me that both either [87:50] don't want to have kids for whatever [87:51] reasons or just can't have kids. [87:53] >> So there's often the the sort of stigma [87:55] can go both ways in some regard. Um, but [87:58] I'm someone that wants to have kids and [87:59] it was fascinating learning about your [88:01] work and it was um, helps me to prepare [88:03] for what I hope will be the most [88:04] fulfilling journey of my life. So, Dr. [88:07] Darby Saxby, thank you so much for your [88:08] work. If everyone wants to go get your [88:10] book, I have two versions here. I have [88:11] the UK version and I have the uh, US [88:14] version. I'm going to hold both of them [88:16] up here and I'll link it below for [88:17] anyone that wants to have a read. [88:19] Absolutely fascinating. And the great [88:21] thing about your work is you do the sort [88:22] of first party research yourself. [88:24] >> And you're at the very forefront of what [88:26] we know about what it is to have a dad [88:29] brain, but also more broadly about [88:31] couples, how they interact, and where [88:33] they can sometimes go wrong. [88:36] Thank you. [88:37] >> Thank you so much for having me. This [88:39] was a delight. [88:39] >> It's been a pleasure. YouTube have this [88:41] new crazy algorithm where they know [88:43] exactly what video you would like to [88:45] watch next based on AI and all of your [88:47] viewing behavior. And the algorithm says [88:49] that this video is the perfect video for [88:52] you. It's different for everybody [88:54] looking right now.