Antares Targets US Military Bases for First Micro-Nuclear Reactors

Antares瞄准美军基地部署首批微型核反应堆 该初创公司绕过民用核监管机构，旨在取代脆弱的国防柴油发电机，随后再扩展至商业超大规模数据中心。 本期对话探讨了美国核能的显著复苏，这一趋势受到公众舆论转变、两党对NRC（核管理委员会）的监管更新以及科技超大规模数据中心庞大电力需求的推动。Julia DeWahl介绍了她的初创公司Antares如何借助这一势头，研发亚兆瓦级微型核反应堆，旨在为美军消除脆弱的柴油燃料供应链。她还分享了关于硬科技融资、通过类似Janus这类基于里程碑的项目参与国防采购的运营见解，以及借鉴她在SpaceX和Opendoor的经历打造结果导向型企业文化的心得。 美国在政治和跨党派层面上正迅速摆脱历史上反核的立场，现代化法案在国会以95比5的压倒性多数通过便体现了这一点。 (0:00) 在拜登政府领导下，核管理委员会（NRC）的核心职责进行了现代化调整，开始考量对文明更广泛的益处，而非仅仅聚焦于安全——以往这种单一关注曾导致“零许可反应堆”成为最安全的结果。 (16:21) 特朗普政府为NRC的许可审批决策设定了严格的18个月倒计时限，并开放了能源部（DOE）测试反应堆沙盒，允许初创企业对首创型反应堆进行迭代。 (16:21) 美国核供应链面临巨大的地缘政治瓶颈，其历史上在本土开采的核燃料仅占约1%，近50%的浓缩铀依赖俄罗斯及前苏联加盟国。 (0:00) Antares正瞄准微型反应堆级别（亚兆瓦级，运行功率在数百千瓦），以在执行关键任务的离网环境中替代脆弱的柴油发电机。 (3:56)

Julia DeWahl, co-founder of Antares, argues that micro-nuclear reactors can resolve critical military logistics vulnerabilities and meet surging commercial demand for continuous, clean power. By establishing a beachhead with the US Department of Defense, Antares aims to bypass commercial cost sensitivity while navigating capital hurdles and supply chain constraints. The Defense Beachhead and Premium Power Markets (6:32) Antares is positioning its micro-reactors for "premium power" customers who prioritize reliability and resilience over upfront electricity costs. The company's initial focus is the US Department of Defense, which relies on vulnerable fuel logistics to power remote installations and missile defense infrastructure. DeWahl notes that historically, up to 50% of US casualties in conflicts like Afghanistan were tied to fuel transport and logistics. Deploying micro-reactors to replace diesel generators is intended to eliminate this operational vulnerability. Beyond military bases and small underwater defense systems, Antares views off-grid industrial operations as fast-following commercial adopters. Power-intensive sectors such as mining and remote oil and gas facilities face carbon reduction targets while still running diesel generators for remote operations like pipeline natural gas compression. Over the longer term, hyperscale data centers requiring continuous, non-intermittent green power represent another major premium market willing to pay above-market rates for firm electricity. Technical Scale and Antares's Development Milestones (3:56) Unlike traditional gigawatt-scale nuclear plants or Small Modular Reactors (SMRs) operating in the tens to hundreds of megawatts, Antares designs sub-one-megawatt units. Operating in the hundreds of kilowatts, these car-sized reactors are engineered to generate enough electricity for 200 to 300 homes, using graphite as a moderator. DeWahl emphasizes that commercializing such hardware requires capital in the hundreds of millions of dollars. To prove technical viability before depleting its runway, Antares has scheduled structured development gates. The company is targeting a criticality test in 2026 to confirm it can initiate and sustain a controlled nuclear reaction with its fuel and moderator configuration. It then plans to deploy an operational demonstration unit producing electricity by the end of 2027. The company intends to finance this trajectory by scaling from single-digit million-dollar R&D grants into larger awards and eventual government procurement programs of record. Regulatory Sandboxes and Milestone-Based Defense Procurement (16:21) Antares's commercialization schedule depends heavily on recent federal policy shifts. While the Nuclear Regulatory Commission (NRC) previously created multi-decade bottlenecks by focusing exclusively on safety rather than broader civilizational benefits, bipartisan legislation modernized the agency's mandate and set an 18-month decision target. To bypass civilian licensing for its earliest iterations, Antares is leveraging Department of Energy testing sandboxes at Idaho National Lab and partnering with the military, which regulates its own reactor deployments. Military procurement is also evolving away from traditional cost-plus contracts toward fixed-price, milestone-based mechanisms. A primary example is the US Army's Janus program, which mirrors NASA's commercial cargo model that enabled SpaceX. Under Janus, the military plans to fund prototype reactors across three to five companies, ultimately awarding production contracts for five to ten or more operational units to the winning vendor. Supply Chain Bottlenecks and Surging Grid Demand (26:11) Expanding micro-reactor manufacturing faces severe domestic supply chain vulnerabilities. Over the last decade, only about 1% of the nuclear fuel used in the US was domestically mined, with the nation relying on Russia and former Soviet states for nearly 50% of its enriched uranium imports. Specialized materials are similarly constrained; the nuclear-grade graphite used by Antares must be imported from Japan due to an absence of US processing facilities. Venture-backed startups like General Matter are attempting to reshore domestic enrichment capabilities to ease these dependencies. These supply constraints coincide with a sharp inflection in electricity demand. After remaining flat below 1% annual growth for over twenty years, US power demand projections have jumped toward 5% annual growth, driven primarily by AI data center construction. The resulting power deficit has spurred major tech firms to finance restarts of decommissioned nuclear plants, including Microsoft's partnership at Three Mile Island and Google's agreement at Duane Arnold. While favorable policy shifts and surging power demand provide strong momentum, Antares must successfully prove its reactor physics in its 2026 criticality test and secure hundreds of millions of dollars in capital while navigating acute global bottlenecks in enriched uranium and nuclear-grade graphite.

Antares 联合创始人 Julia DeWahl 指出，美国正迎来核能政策松绑与社会认知的重大转折；公司计划以亚兆瓦级微型核反应堆切入对成本不敏感、极度重视供电韧性的军工与数据中心“溢价电力”市场，以替代传统柴油发电机并彻底摆脱高危后勤燃料运输的束缚。 微型反应堆定位与军工溢价市场 (3:56) Antares 专注于亚兆瓦（Sub-one-megawatt）级别、功率在数百千瓦的小型化微型反应堆。与供应整座城市的千兆瓦级传统核电站和数十至数百兆瓦的小型模块化反应堆（SMR）不同，此类设备体积仅相当于一辆汽车，能够为200至300户家庭供电。DeWahl 表示，硬件初创公司必须寻找对成本最低敏感的“滩头市场”。Antares 的核心设计目标是替换军事基地、导弹防御设施、太空应用乃至水下无人潜航系统所依赖的柴油发电机。 在偏远及极度关键的场景中，柴油发电面临极高的物流脆弱性。DeWahl 援引军方观点指出，历史冲突（如阿富汗战争）中高达50%的美军伤亡与后勤和燃料运输直接相关。微型反应堆旨在“斩断对燃料的依赖”，免去直升机或驳船的高危补给。除军方外，该技术的民用拓展将聚焦超大规模数据中心与偏远油气开采，前者受制于严格的减碳承诺并极度渴求全天候、非间歇性的坚实绿电（Firm 24/7 power），同样愿意支付高于市场基准的溢价。 监管沙盒、军方采购与双阶段工程节点 (7:40) 为防范硬件初创公司资金在技术验证前耗尽的风险，Antares 设立了明确的推进节奏：计划在2026年完成“临界测试”（Criticality Test），以验证慢化剂与燃料配比下受控核反应的启动与维持能力；并计划于2027年底前推出首台能产生实际电力的完整示范机。DeWahl 认为，美国当前跨党派立法（国会支持率常达95比5）大幅改善了核能监管环境，美国核管制委员会（NRC）的职责已从单一的安全审查转向兼顾全环境与社会效益，并设定了18个月内必须裁定是否发照的严格时限。 在具体准入路径上，Antares 初期规避了繁琐的民用 NRC 审批程序。公司主要利用能源部（DOE）及爱达荷国家实验室（INL）开放的监管“沙盒”，并在拥有独立反应堆监管权的军方体系内展开部署。陆军推出的 Janus 计划正借鉴 NASA 曾用于 SpaceX 的商业轨道运输服务（COTS）模式，采用里程碑式固定总价合同资助3至5家企业在军事基地建造原型堆，并最终挑选胜出者采购5至10台或更多的量产反应堆。 燃料供应链脆弱性与数据中心电力缺口 (26:11) DeWahl 强调，核能产业面临严峻的地缘供应链瓶颈。过去十年中，美国核燃料仅约1%实现本土开采，近50%的浓缩铀依赖俄罗斯及前苏联加盟共和国；反应堆所需的特种石墨在美国本土完全没有加工产能，Antares 不得不从日本采购。尽管如此，以 General Matter 为代表的硅谷硬科技资本正在加速推进核燃料再本土化，目标是在本土与盟友之间构建多元化的安全供应链。 这一供应链重建恰逢美国电网需求迎来爆发期。在经历长达20年低于1%的平缓年增长后，AI 数据中心的高速扩张导致用电需求增速预估跳升至5%左右。DeWahl 认为，尽管太阳能建设成本极低，但全天候覆盖所需的巨额储能电池和备用天然气调峰电站产生了被忽视的并网隐形成本。由于核燃料能量密度极高且易于储存，科技巨头正在通过长期购电协议争相重启退役核电站（如微软重启三哩岛核电站、谷歌重启爱荷华州 Duane Arnold 反应堆），为核电带来前所未有的商业推力。 跨越硬科技J曲线与结果导向交付 (30:09) DeWahl 将其在 Opendoor 与 SpaceX 的早期经历注入 Antares 的管理实践。她拒绝申请 DARPA 资助，指出 DARPA 偏好技术探索度极高的前沿课题，而 Antares 解决的是已知科学原理下的硬工程落地问题。面对需要“数亿美元”资本才能完成商业化的大周期，公司采取跨越“J曲线”的资金策略：从早期的数百万美元资助，过渡到数千万美元的研发资助，最终凭借运转良好的发电原型堆争取政府正式项目计划（Program of Record）与商业预付款。 在组织文化方面，Antares 沿用了源自 SpaceX 的高对抗性文化和深度追问机制（强化版“五个为什么”），鼓励团队为了得出正确结论即时叫停会议并推翻预设假设。DeWahl 认为，面对国家实验室高额清理费用等现实繁文缛节，硬件公司必须在尊重实体工业游戏规则的同时保持激进推进；无论团队崇尚对抗沟通还是文档沉淀，企业文化的核心终究必须是交付卓越产品，用可验证的工程成果确立行业标准。 Antares 借助军用场景与规管沙盒避开了民用核电的初期审批阻力，但其商业化成败仍高度取决于2026与2027年工程节点能否如期兑现。此外，面对特种石墨等关键材料对海外供应链的依赖，以及数亿美元量产资金的持续筹措能力，该模式能否顺利跨越硬科技的“死亡之谷”并复制到民用工业领域，依然有待时间检验。

[3:56] Julia DeWahl: the Starlink of electricity [3:56] Julia DeWahl: backpack-sized nuclear reactor [6:32] Julia DeWahl: clean, firm, 24/7 power [9:47] Julia DeWahl: unleash us from the tether of fuel [12:03] Julia DeWahl: it just swings and no one ever looks back [14:53] Julia DeWahl: our mothers against their mothers [14:53] Julia DeWahl: science advances one death at a time [26:11] Julia DeWahl: atoms business [36:03] Julia DeWahl: When you have to work with the real world, you have to... play their games a little bit [40:22] Julia DeWahl: building for our country [45:44] Julia DeWahl: one of excellence [45:44] Julia DeWahl: delivering quality product [45:44] Julia DeWahl: results speak for themselves

[0:00] The US did have this long-running anti-nuclear bent. [0:04] I can't even tell you how much has changed [0:06] in the last few years. [0:06] They changed the mandate of the NRC [0:08] and they said you are no longer focused just on safety. [0:12] Department of Energy pathways have been also unopened [0:14] and unblocked for test reactors. [0:17] The last 10 years or so, [0:18] it's been like 1% of nuclear fuel used in the US [0:21] was actually domestically mined. [0:22] We're still buying like almost 50% of our uranium [0:25] from Russia and kind of ex-Soviet states. [0:28] How capital intensive is it going to be [0:30] to get your product to market? [0:31] Oh, in the hundreds of millions. [0:33] The biggest organization that showed up [0:35] against Diablo Canyon was called "Mothers for Peace." [0:38] This organization was that old [0:40] that it was related to the Nuclear Cold War, right? [0:43] I'm part of this "Mothers for Nuclear" organization. [0:45] Mothers against their mothers? [0:47] Yeah. [0:48] And then I brought some graphite. [0:50] Do you want to take that out [0:51] and I'll show it? Sure, yeah. [0:52] This is what we are using for our moderator [0:54] in our reactor. [0:55] It has been designated a critical mineral. [0:58] It's an important one. [0:59] But this is just graphite. [1:00] Like this is not, you know, [1:02] uranium-235 or something. [1:03] No, I wouldn't have brought you that. [1:06] That would've been a little bit dangerous to be holding. [1:09] Julia DeWahl is the co-founder of Antares, [1:11] which is designing nuclear micro-reactors [1:13] for the military and other off-grid use cases. [1:16] Cheers. Cheers. [1:17] Thanks for coming by. It's great to be here. [1:23] So you started out first at Opendoor and then SpaceX. [1:28] What did you learn in each one of those [1:29] that you took to Antares? [1:31] Yeah, sure. [1:31] I think one of the big things is always about customers, [1:35] right? [1:35] I mean, at the end of the day, [1:36] this is why you build a business. [1:38] At Opendoor, a lot of us were pretty young [1:40] starting the business. [1:40] I was one of the early employees there [1:42] and none of us had ever bought, [1:44] let alone sold a house. [1:45] So a lot of it was like learning what that was all about. [1:48] And I remember in the early days, [1:49] we just were working on writing the copy for the website [1:52] and we're like— [1:53] You have no idea what a homeowner— [1:54] "We don't really know much about this whole thing. [1:56] So what can we do about that?" [1:57] We just went and sat outside a bagel shop [1:59] for a Saturday and a Sunday morning [2:01] and just bought people bagels [2:02] and just asked them about their processes [2:03] buying and selling a home and learned a ton. [2:05] And just really [2:07] thought about what language they were using, [2:09] what were the pain points, [2:10] and that was really important [2:11] to just like really get to know [2:13] what we were trying to deliver on as a business. [2:16] And then, you know, [2:17] fast forward to joining SpaceX after Opendoor. [2:20] I joined as Starlink was coming out of R&D [2:22] and into go-to-market. [2:23] That's why I was joining. To lead that team [2:26] and the business operations there. [2:28] And we launch and we get our first customers. [2:31] And so I invited our first customers [2:33] to come join us via Zoom for an all-hands. [2:36] And it was honestly the first time [2:37] that many of the engineers had actually heard [2:39] from the words of a customer themselves [2:41] about the experience. [2:42] And, of course, everyone loved the internet, right? [2:45] The fast internet, it was amazing. [2:46] Rural Idaho, right? This is like a dream. [2:49] But when we got to talking about the setup process, [2:52] everyone kind of was like, "Oh, that sounds rough." [2:54] They're talking about multiple Home Depot trips. [2:56] They didn't know if they had to cut down trees [2:58] on their property. [2:59] Like they couldn't get a pole long enough. [3:00] Ah, so a lot of it was simplifying people's understanding [3:03] of what would it mean? [3:04] Well, people kind of didn't realize [3:05] how much the setup was so painful. [3:08] And it led to basically this cross-functional SWAT team [3:12] that was dedicated to mounting options [3:14] to be sold alongside the dish. [3:17] First-party or third-party? [3:19] We did it ourselves actually. [3:20] We said it's important that we have a good experience [3:22] for that because actually it is a big part [3:25] of the experience. [3:26] And so, spun up a whole team. [3:27] A lot of attention was given to mounting, [3:29] which is like, who ever would've thought? [3:31] And I think, you know, customers again, [3:32] they're just like, [3:33] they are the reason you start a business. [3:35] And just bringing this back to Antares, [3:37] I mean, the reason we started Antares [3:40] was to say like the government, particularly the military, [3:43] needs more energy resilience, [3:45] especially for critical infrastructure. [3:46] We just do so much more now in the cloud with satellites. [3:51] Our missile defense sites are sitting there [3:53] like being powered by diesel generators still. [3:55] Like, shouldn't we upgrade that? [3:56] Okay, so I'll buy it. [3:57] What is Antares? [3:59] Sure, sure. [4:00] We're building micro-reactors, so small nuclear reactors, [4:03] and we are building, in particular, [4:05] for critical infrastructure, largely for the military. [4:08] Although we do think that as costs come down, [4:11] there will be an interesting commercial market too. [4:12] But basically anywhere where you're off-grid for sure, [4:16] or you just want resilience behind the grid [4:18] as it exists today. [4:21] Cyber attacks or whatever, the grid goes down, [4:22] you want backup power. [4:24] It's a really great option. [4:25] Okay. [4:26] And if one megawatt is a small neighborhood, [4:29] if one gigawatt is like a big nuclear power plant [4:32] like in The Simpsons, you know? [4:33] What are your SMRs? [4:35] Sure, yeah. [4:36] There's basically three classes size-wise. [4:38] You have the really small ones are the micro-reactors, [4:41] and we're actually one of the smallest of those. [4:43] So we're even sub-one-megawatt, [4:44] we're kind of in the hundreds of kilowatt scale. [4:46] You could think of that [4:47] as like hundreds of houses worth of electricity. [4:49] Then you have the SMRs, [4:50] which is kind of this middle-ground bucket, [4:52] which is an interesting kind of neither here nor there. [4:56] But potentially interesting. [4:58] I'm sure we'll get into, [4:59] in the hundreds of megawatts [5:00] or even 50 megawatts. [5:01] And then you have the gigawatt scale. [5:02] So a thousand megawatts, [5:03] and that's what the current power plants are today. [5:04] Okay, so you're sub a megawatt. [5:06] So we're super small. I see. Okay. [5:08] So you're kind of similar nuclear size [5:09] to what will be on a submarine or something like that. [5:11] Smaller than that even. [5:12] Those are like megawatt scale. [5:14] So we're like, [5:14] think about like we're the size of a car reactor. [5:17] Think about replacing a diesel generator [5:18] that's used to power, again, [5:20] something that would be on the order [5:21] of 200 to 300 homes of electricity. [5:23] So it's quite small. Yes. [5:24] And so a big part of your focus is providing power [5:29] in places where you really need that reliability. [5:32] Like you're talking about replacing diesel generators. [5:34] Is that kind of the design center for you? [5:36] Yeah. [5:37] Anywhere where you're going to enable a capability, [5:39] a mission capability, [5:40] that wouldn't really be possible otherwise. [5:43] So there's actually some really interesting [5:45] space applications, [5:46] potentially underwater applications as you move to... [5:49] So you move away from like few, [5:50] what they call exquisite to attritable systems. [5:54] This is where a really small reactor can come in very handy [5:57] for, you know, [5:58] the submarines are obviously multi-megawatt-powered systems, [6:02] but these could be kilowatts-powered, [6:04] smaller systems underwater. [6:05] But yes, anywhere where you're off-grid, [6:07] where today you're relying on what they call [6:09] like the fuel supply chain [6:12] of like bringing in fuel via helicopter [6:14] or barge repeatedly. [6:16] And that being a vulnerability, [6:17] like this is a great option. [6:19] So you're the Starlink of electricity. [6:20] Kind of. [6:21] We're actually like perfectly paired. [6:24] And I wish we could offer a consumer product. [6:26] That's not on our roadmap right now, [6:27] but maybe one day, like, [6:29] backpack-sized nuclear reactor. [6:32] I presume it can't be on your roadmap, [6:34] but why not? [6:35] Is it that selling to the government is much easier [6:36] than selling to something that— [6:38] There's so many reasons. [6:40] I think that you always want to try to get your beachhead [6:42] where it's the easiest to achieve, right? [6:44] And so we believe, I believe that [6:47] premium power is where you need to go with nuclear. [6:49] And there's sort of two places for that. [6:51] One is what we're doing with Antares, [6:53] which is go to the military, [6:55] help them with mission-critical need [6:57] where they're not cost-sensitive, [6:59] where they already pay more for power. [7:01] And go there and support them [7:02] with this next-gen, better version of resilient power. [7:06] Or you go and you sell what we're seeing now, I think, [7:09] which is really interesting with the hyperscalers, [7:10] is they have carbon commitments. [7:12] They want clean, firm, they want 24/7 power. [7:15] They're actually willing to pay above market rates for that [7:17] and they will pay above market rates. [7:19] So this premium power thing [7:20] is a really interesting dynamic [7:22] like where nuclear is kind of well-positioned. [7:25] What are the underwater applications? [7:27] Well, it's really just think mini submarines. [7:29] Oh, okay, yeah. [7:30] Just really small systems like, you know, [7:32] what drones are to maybe like larger missiles. [7:34] That's kind of the equivalent. [7:36] It's not super far along just yet. [7:39] Got it. Okay. [7:40] What does the path look like between now [7:44] and producing power for the military? [7:47] I guess, first in a pilot environment [7:50] and then at scale [7:51] outside of a pilot environment. [7:52] Yeah, well, you know, [7:54] it's always what are the next milestones that you can do [7:56] to prove your technical ability and again, [8:00] raise more capital to keep going with your company? [8:02] I think the biggest risk often to hardware companies [8:04] is you don't get far enough along technically [8:08] to merit additional investment. [8:10] So we are thinking a lot about our milestones [8:13] for reactor development. [8:15] And so next year our criticality test [8:17] is kind of the first milestone. [8:19] By end of 2027, we want to have [8:20] our first demonstration unit demonstrated. [8:23] And what's really exciting is [8:24] there's just so much good policy happening right now [8:26] from the DOE and elsewhere [8:28] that is supporting reactor tests and pilot programs. [8:32] And so there's just like so much happening [8:35] where they're opening up federal land. [8:38] They're removing— [8:39] starting to remove some of those like NEPA-type regulations [8:42] that really just hold everything up. [8:44] So there is a clearer path now [8:47] than there really ever has been for reactor builds. [8:49] Oh, we'll get to the regulatory side. [8:51] I have a lot of questions, [8:53] but what is your criticality test in 2026? [8:54] What does that mean? [8:56] Yeah, it means that you're testing [8:58] that you can actually start your reaction. [9:01] So like you've figured out [9:02] the right amount of moderator-to-fuel. [9:06] And you start it going critical. [9:07] You don't have it continue on for a while. [9:10] You don't typically have a power conversion system [9:12] that's actually taking the raw energy [9:15] and turning it into electricity. [9:17] So it's just one of those initial tests, [9:18] like can you start to put all your pieces together? [9:21] And when do you, you know, [9:23] the fusion guys are all focused on this. [9:28] Producing more power than you put in. [9:30] I know that's different. [9:31] That's a fusion thing, [9:33] but when do you actually produce power? [9:35] Producing power will be like your first reactor test. [9:37] It's like, can you do the whole shebang? [9:39] Like you can get this thing up and running. [9:41] It's producing power. [9:42] And that's what we're aiming to do by the end of 2027. [9:45] Oh wow, that's like pretty soon. [9:47] Yeah. [9:47] What does the market look like for these small reactors? [9:51] Who are you going to compete with? [9:52] Well, the market for micro-reactors [9:55] is one of these ones where it's like, well, [9:56] there are no micro-reactors today on the market [9:58] to just like buy and use. [9:59] So what do you think they're going to be, right? [10:01] And so I think, first and foremost, [10:03] it's going to be the most critical assets [10:05] where you just cannot have them go down. [10:07] Which is why defense is the perfect first market for it. [10:10] And so it's going to be all of your critical infrastructure [10:12] on every single base that there is. [10:14] Obviously, you'll start with the most critical [10:16] of critical missile defense sites and off-grid locations, [10:18] things like that. [10:19] And that's kind of defense. [10:21] Then you think about commercial, [10:23] basically you have to see where the cost curves gets you to. [10:26] Like how cheap can it get? [10:28] This is just like space, right? [10:29] It's like those first expensive launches into space [10:32] like that better have been a really important thing [10:34] you're putting up there, right? [10:35] But now that launch cost has come down, [10:37] you can start to be like, "Oh, what else? [10:38] What else could we do that we can do some more stuff [10:40] that's like maybe not so mission-critical?" [10:42] I think we'll see the same thing [10:44] in the commercial industries. [10:46] Oil and gas has a lot of areas [10:49] where they, again, use diesel generators [10:52] to do things like compressed natural gas [10:55] along their pipelines [10:56] and they actually have carbon commitments, [10:58] which are really interesting [10:59] that they're sort of thinking about. [11:00] Ironically, right? [11:02] Can they move towards some more renewable [11:04] or nuclear type resources? [11:05] So I think there's going to be [11:06] some commercial applications there too. [11:08] Mining, for example, too. [11:09] Like anything that's just like off-grid, [11:11] hard to power today, [11:13] really hard to get fuel into. [11:14] It's perfect market. Yes. [11:16] You're probably following the US military, [11:17] there's all these controversies right now [11:19] with people talking about fuel quality [11:20] and fuel contamination issues in Asia, [11:23] I think it is. But yeah. [11:25] Presumably places where you're worried [11:26] about fuel availability at all times [11:29] and ensuring that you constantly have access to fuel. [11:32] That is the place where there will be the most pull [11:35] for these solutions. [11:36] Like that's where generators work worst. [11:37] Yes, and you know, there's a famous defense quote, [11:41] I think it's "unleash us from the tether of fuel," [11:44] which means just like, [11:45] gosh, the logistics supply chain has been such a challenge. [11:49] I mean it was 50% of the— [11:51] I think the Afghanistan casualties were from just logistics. [11:55] And so, you know, having situations [11:57] where you can kind of reduce that risk [11:59] helps and it's a great market fit. [12:02] Yes. [12:03] You were saying there's no market [12:04] for these small reactors today. [12:07] Why not? [12:08] Like— [12:09] We've had nuclear fission technology [12:10] for a long time. [12:12] Yeah. [12:13] Why hasn't it been done? [12:14] Gosh, there's so many reasons. [12:15] I think we ended up... [12:16] I think there was just a macro really negative climate [12:19] around nuclear in general. [12:20] So it impacted anything small as well, [12:22] coming out of the seventies, [12:24] and so you had macro forces related to just like inflation, [12:29] kind of just cost of capital. [12:30] People stopped building, [12:31] which coincided with the environmental movement, [12:34] which was extremely anti-nuclear. [12:35] They actually sort of conflated nuclear weapons testing [12:39] even with—it was just like "no nukes" with energy. [12:42] It's like, "Oh that's actually pretty different." [12:44] So a lot of things converged in the seventies [12:46] and then by the eighties we stopped building in nuclear. [12:48] Okay. [12:49] So you just view it as a part of the general [12:51] anti-nuclear swing and thus also led to [12:55] the cessation of construction [12:57] of new nuclear plants in the US and everything like this. [13:00] Your corner of the market also got caught up in that. [13:03] And that's why we haven't ended up with them. [13:06] Were there ever products available at this size range? [13:09] There were but they were pretty few and far between. [13:12] Mostly test reactors, small things built. [13:15] We actually put one reactor into space in the 1960s [13:18] to test that out. [13:19] Did it work? [13:20] Yeah, for a bit. [13:21] I mean, a few months and was like, [13:23] let's try to do some [13:24] systems in space with power. [13:25] It's important to have power in space [13:27] and I think that's a whole other frontier. [13:30] Obviously the US did have this long-running, [13:33] anti-nuclear bent where I grew up in Ireland similarly. [13:38] Yeah, there was the exact same thing [13:39] and Ireland was very paranoid [13:40] about a particular British nuclear power plant, Sellafield, [13:44] that was just across the channel from Ireland. [13:47] Does Ireland have nuclear? [13:49] Ireland has no nuclear power. [13:50] The UK does. France does. [13:51] Ireland does not. [13:52] And I believe it's banned [13:55] and so you can't, per the current rules. [13:57] There's actually many states in the US [13:59] that have bans as well, [14:00] but they've just been falling left and right. [14:02] It's so cool to see. [14:03] Well I was going to ask this. [14:04] The vibe has really shifted over the past 10 to 15 years. [14:09] Yep. [14:10] Why? [14:11] Honestly, it reminds me of gay marriage. [14:13] I mean, and if you look at the polling. [14:15] It came from the youth, right? [14:17] It definitely comes from youth for sure. [14:18] But it's like, it just... Enough things add up [14:21] and it just swings and no one ever looks back type of thing. [14:24] That's how it feels. [14:25] The percentage point change we've seen [14:27] in the last five to 10 years is almost 20 points. [14:29] It's like 17 points or something. [14:31] So it's 60-plus percent of people support nuclear. [14:34] It's actually almost surprising it's that low in some ways. [14:36] But yeah, it's just huge public sentiment shift. [14:40] And I think the old hippie nuclear testing [14:44] or nuclear weapons testing folks are kind of dying out. [14:47] What is wild though is I did a little kind of activism [14:51] related to Diablo Canyon Power Plant here in California, [14:53] which was slated to be shut down this year. [14:55] Sure, yeah. [14:56] And just a few years ago, [14:58] Newsom had to kind of begrudgingly say like, [15:00] "Oh, you know what, [15:01] we probably should keep this thing on. [15:02] We can't afford to have the power going out." [15:04] But I listened in on some hearings [15:06] and actually gave some testimony there. [15:08] And it was so funny to me [15:09] that the biggest organization that showed up [15:11] against Diablo Canyon was called "Mothers for Peace." [15:14] And it's like, do you understand the irony of your name? [15:17] This organization was that old [15:18] that it was related to like the nuclear Cold War. [15:21] Right? Totally. [15:22] And it's like, gosh, we've moved on. [15:24] We were joking because I, sort of, am part [15:25] of this "Mothers for Nuclear" organization [15:28] that's like tongue in cheek a bit on that. [15:30] Our mothers against their mothers. [15:31] Yeah, our mothers against their mothers. [15:34] And it's just funny how old school [15:36] a lot of that opposition is. [15:37] So I guess as a "science advances one death at a time" [15:40] dynamic going on here, whereas the memory of the 1960s [15:45] and peak nuclear confrontation [15:49] and, you know, Three Mile Island and all these things. [15:52] As all that fades, [15:54] maybe it creates an environment [15:56] where people could be more supportive of nuclear. [15:57] Yeah, absolutely. Yeah. [15:58] What was your activism around Diablo Canyon? [16:00] It was just exactly that. [16:01] It was like, let's make sure that this actually passes [16:03] and we don't shut it down. [16:05] But it's safe. [16:05] But there was a lot of people just calling and saying, [16:06] "Hey listen, nuclear's super safe, it's carbon-free. [16:09] Ostensibly, in California, we care about these things. [16:12] Let's support this. [16:13] Let's overturn whatever legislation was done [16:16] 10 years ago that said we should shut this thing down." [16:18] And it did pass. [16:19] So now we do still have it open. [16:21] Everyone on "Progress Twitter" likes to complain [16:24] about the NRC, [16:25] but for the NRC we would be living in [16:28] that Jetsons vision of the future [16:31] and everyone would have their [16:33] nuclear-powered car that they used to drive [16:34] to their nuclear-powered office and everything. [16:36] Is that true? [16:39] How good or bad is the current regulatory environment? [16:41] How much is that changing? [16:42] Yeah, yeah. [16:43] I think it's an overestimated headwind. Certainly today. [16:47] I think if you go back five years ago, [16:49] 10 years ago for sure, [16:50] I mean they hadn't licensed anything in decades. [16:53] There had been nothing new. [16:55] But I can't even tell you how much has changed [16:58] in the last few years. [16:59] It's kind of remarkable. [17:00] And it's been across both the Biden [17:02] and the Trump administration, [17:03] which is amazing to see. [17:04] The legislation around nuclear passes like [17:07] 95 to 5 type of thing, right? [17:10] It's like really, really strong bipartisan... [17:13] What was interesting to see is it started with Biden, [17:16] a bunch of legislation related to modernizing [17:19] and reforming the NRC. [17:20] The biggest thing they did was they changed the mandate [17:23] of the NRC and they said, [17:24] "You are no longer focused just on safety," [17:27] because what's the safest number [17:28] of nuclear reactors to license? [17:30] Zero, so they expanded that, [17:32] "You must consider the full environment, [17:34] the full civilization." [17:36] That's great. [17:36] And then just change things around [17:38] like the advanced reactor pathway, [17:41] removing some of the barriers. [17:42] And then it's continued on with Trump [17:44] and in fact he's sort of added [17:45] even some more teeth and specificity. [17:48] So right now, they've changed it to, [17:50] "You have 18 months to get your answer from the NRC. [17:53] License or no license." [17:54] Like do you pass or not? [17:57] And what happens if they exceed the 18-month window? [17:59] You know, probably it's in the details somewhere. [18:02] But the point is that these have been declared [18:05] that timeliness is important. [18:07] There's also been some leadership change, [18:08] which is just more reform-oriented, which is great, [18:11] and there's just a huge microscope on it. [18:12] Everyone's watching. [18:13] Everyone knows who's submitting their paperwork [18:17] and what's going to come out the other side. [18:20] Another thing that happened with some of these Trump [18:21] executive orders is the DOE pathways, [18:24] Department of Energy pathways, [18:25] have been also unopened and unblocked for test reactors. [18:29] And so actually Antares is part [18:30] of this new test reactor program which allows the DOE [18:34] alongside usually like Idaho National Lab [18:37] to be sort of your regulator [18:39] as you're testing your first reactors [18:41] so that you don't have to spend all this time upfront [18:43] with the NRC for something [18:45] that you're just still innovating on and iterating on. [18:48] And so that's a really nice, I think, [18:50] first step before you go through the NRC. [18:53] Wait, so let me make sure I'm giving this right. [18:55] There is now a Trump-era change [18:56] where we essentially for the first time ever [18:58] have a second nuclear regulator [19:00] where you can go the NRC path [19:02] but also there's a regulatory sandbox where you can start [19:06] by working with the DOE and get up and running there. [19:09] Yeah, that's essentially right. [19:11] How big is the sandbox? [19:12] I mean, the DOE has always been a path. [19:15] There actually technically has always been a path [19:16] within the military [19:17] because they license their own reactors with submarines. [19:19] So it's always kind of been there but [19:21] hard to navigate, not well-staffed, not well-known about. [19:24] And now it's like everyone's watching. [19:27] Let's go DOE, let's go INL, [19:30] Idaho National Lab, and let's make these things happen. [19:33] So there's just been a lot of stated like, [19:35] "You must enable this thing." [19:37] And like, now here's some... [19:39] It's actually a $0 program, [19:41] but it gives you unlimited access to staff [19:43] and all these other things. [19:45] And the point is like everyone's watching [19:47] to see how fast you can get [19:48] one of these reactors through safely. [19:50] So are you guys going the DOE routes first? [19:51] Yep, we are. [19:52] And the DOD route, I mean to say like, [19:55] the Army is now also able to license its own reactors, [20:00] alongside the Navy which already does. [20:03] So that will absolutely be our first stop. [20:05] The NRC really only regulates civilian electricity. [20:10] So civilian power. [20:11] So we actually don't need to even go there yet. [20:13] I see. [20:13] So you could be selling a lot of reactors [20:15] and never go through the NRC. [20:16] We'll basically do our test reactors with the DOE. [20:20] Alongside the DOD who can now— [20:23] who has the jurisdiction to regulate. [20:25] Which is great. I didn't know that. [20:27] So this is the rare bipartisan issue. [20:29] It's a true... Kind of a gem. [20:32] I can paint three clean energy futures. [20:37] One is the solar and regular renewables view. [20:42] You know, Casey Handmer was just on this podcast. [20:44] And solar will get very cheap. [20:46] Batteries will get cheap enough [20:48] such that you can go all in on solar and batteries. [20:52] Maybe some other renewables in the mix. [20:53] But there you go. That's it. [20:54] Nothing will be able to cost-compete with that. [20:56] That's one vision. [20:57] Another is that we will rediscover nuclear fission [21:00] and we'll figure out the spent fuel [21:03] and everything like that. [21:04] And we'll just do what we used to do, [21:07] which is build nuclear power plants at larger scale. [21:10] And that delivers us enough clean energy. [21:12] A third view is that fusion will work [21:15] and we'll actually have nuclear fusion at [21:19] useful, meaningful scale of the grid. [21:21] Between those scenarios, [21:23] how would you handicap them? [21:24] I think it's... You know, I'm going to leave fusion out [21:26] because I'm not enough of an expert [21:27] to know when and how that will happen. [21:30] I would love for that to happen. [21:31] How exciting, right? [21:32] Between the first two, [21:34] we do a lot of market manipulation of our energy markets [21:38] and there's a little bit of like, [21:40] flavor of the administration that does happen, [21:42] especially between renewables and oil and gas, right? [21:45] Nuclear's been a little bit actually [21:48] immune to that. [21:49] But there hasn't really been almost a true market [21:52] for this stuff. [21:52] Like the renewables have been heavily subsidized [21:54] for a while and nuclear has not been. [21:57] That did change in 2022 with the IRA. [21:59] There's now production tax credits for nuclear, [22:01] which has a lot of ripple effects. [22:03] But I think we're going to see a lot more progress [22:06] with solar and batteries in particular. [22:07] There is a reason, however, that the hyperscalers [22:10] who are committed to their climate targets [22:13] are not just going for, you know, solar farms. [22:15] Like why are even thinking about nuclear [22:17] if solar is so cheap? [22:18] And it's because actually [22:20] to get true hundred percent, 24/7 coverage, [22:23] the battery or the excess build-out is massive. [22:26] It is really expensive. [22:27] It's basically on par with nuclear costs. [22:30] So we're not there yet. [22:31] It's one thing to say. [22:33] The other is that the cost of solar [22:36] at the panel level is dirt cheap, right? [22:39] And installing it dirt cheap, [22:41] but to actually integrate it, build the transmission, [22:44] and then the added grid complexity [22:47] where you need now these peaker gas plants to run [22:49] when the the clouds come [22:51] and that kind of thing. [22:52] That actually has a ton of costs [22:54] and it's sort of hidden costs. [22:55] I think it's underappreciated certainly [22:57] by the solar maxis out there. [22:59] It's real, you know, [23:01] and so I think we're always going to want to have [23:03] multiple sources of energy, right? [23:06] It's like diversity is good. [23:08] It's like if one thing— [23:09] if natural gas prices are through the roof, hey, [23:11] we have these other things. [23:12] We have this base load nuclear, [23:14] which has been just like so stable for us. [23:17] And I think we're going to want to have everything. [23:18] I actually don't think there's going to be a world [23:20] that's going to be like a hundred percent nuclear. [23:23] But is diversity of energy sources valuable because [23:27] the solar maximalist would say, "No, it's fine. [23:29] Solar will just take everything." [23:31] And wouldn't the nuclear maximalist say [23:33] just we can have a lot of, you know, [23:35] we figure out how to at scale produce nuclear power plants [23:37] and why do you need nat gas? [23:38] Why do you need anything else? [23:40] It's a good push if you are able to own, [23:43] through and through, your whole supply chain. [23:45] You make the panels. [23:46] You mine and process the minerals, [23:49] which we have like zero interest in doing as Americans. [23:51] All that dirty work is done in China and elsewhere. [23:54] If you really did all that yourself, [23:55] then I could say, okay, you own it. You can do it. [23:58] Right now at least you have, [23:59] "Hey, if your natural gas pipelines get shut down, [24:01] actually it's not a problem for us. [24:02] We're not even an importer anymore. [24:05] We're actually good." [24:07] This is actually the reason that... [24:08] Do you know what percentage of France's electricity [24:11] is from nuclear? [24:13] It's declining, right? [24:14] But historically it's been around 70%. [24:17] Yep. Yeah. [24:18] Do you know the US? [24:19] The US for nuclear? [24:20] Oh, it's small. It's 5-10%. [24:23] It's actually more. [24:24] Really? 18. [24:25] Oh, okay. [24:26] And everyone thinks it's below 5-10%. [24:28] It's like, when I got into this, [24:29] I thought it was like 2%. [24:30] But anyway, my point is that France made a very, [24:33] very deliberate decision to actually go to 70%, [24:35] if not more at the time in the seventies [24:37] because they had no carbon resources. [24:39] So they didn't have the ability to say, [24:41] "Oh, we'll just dig in our backyard and we'll be fine." [24:43] And actually uranium, while it does require [24:47] digging out of ground or whatever, [24:48] is so much easier to store. [24:49] It's a million times as dense as coal. [24:52] So it's a lot easier to work with than... [24:55] The reason people get uptight about oil and gas supply [24:58] is that it's like not easy to store. [25:00] And if it's not easier for you to come by, [25:01] you better well have good geopolitical relationships. [25:04] Yes, yes. So anyway, [25:05] this world and where it's headed, [25:07] I think it's still going to involve multiple sources. [25:17] Julia's work involves managing a lot of risk: [25:20] unsolved physics, complex engineering, [25:21] and a lot of regulatory scrutiny. [25:23] Managing risk for an internet retailer [25:25] shouldn't be that complex, [25:26] but sometimes it can feel like it. [25:28] Internet fraudsters now operate on industrial scales. [25:31] They attack strategically when you're sleeping [25:32] and they use AI to sharpen their attacks now. [25:35] Stripe's defense against fraud comes from its scale. [25:38] When a payment happens on your site, [25:40] there's a 92% chance we've seen that exact card before. [25:42] So it's easier for us to spot misuse. [25:45] And we recently expanded Radar [25:46] to block other kinds of fraud, [25:47] like free trial abuse, promotion abuse and refund abuse. [25:51] Stripe now processes trillions of dollars of payments [25:53] each year and every transaction in the Stripe network [25:56] makes the next one safer for everyone. [25:58] So you can focus on your product [25:59] and not on developing a world-class counter-fraud division. [26:02] To let Radar handle the fraud [26:04] so you can get back to building your product, [26:06] go to stripe.com/radar. [26:11] Tell me about the supply chain for nuclear fuels. [26:13] Yeah, I mean, [26:15] you dig uranium out of the ground [26:16] and then you need to convert it to a gaseous state [26:19] so that you can enrich it and have the... [26:21] you kind of put in a centrifuge. [26:22] It goes like this and the heavier isotopes go out [26:25] and the lighter ones stay in [26:27] and you can pick those out and make those into your fuel. [26:29] The mining part has been something [26:31] that we've hardly kept alive. [26:33] I mean there was, at one point, [26:33] a couple of mining operations going in the US. [26:37] The last 10 years or so, [26:38] it's been like 1% of nuclear fuel used in the US [26:42] was actually domestically mined. [26:44] Where are the last uranium mines in the US? [26:46] They're places where you would think: [26:48] Texas, Wyoming, those sorts of places. [26:51] In the western states. [26:53] But we now again, like everything else have said, [26:55] "Okay, wake up, let's actually reshore some of this stuff." [26:57] So we're starting to see more uranium mining. [27:00] Conversion and enrichment is still largely done overseas. [27:03] And yeah, we're still buying like almost 50% of our uranium [27:07] from Russia and kind of ex-Soviet states. [27:10] So I think it is important that we're thinking about like, [27:13] how do we have far more of a domestic supply chain? [27:16] We have the ability to do it. [27:17] We have the uranium and actually [27:19] there's a little bit of Silicon Valley DNA [27:21] entering the space with General Matter, [27:23] which is Scott Nolan's company out of Founders Fund. [27:26] So he's getting into the enrichment space. [27:28] They're a uranium enrichment company. [27:30] They're a uranium enrichment company, [27:32] which is like real picks and shovels for a real hard [27:36] atoms business to do that. [27:38] But I think it's really meaningful work. [27:41] I think it's really important. [27:42] Do you care more about the mining, [27:44] the enrichment happening in the US, [27:45] or just there has to be [27:47] an independent supply chain for the whole thing? [27:48] I think you just want diversity. [27:51] You know, you don't want everything from one place. [27:53] And I think we do want to have capability. [27:55] So I think all of it should be at least partially done here [27:58] and with our allies. [27:59] How did you end up starting Antares? [28:00] Gosh, I mean... [28:01] Like most people do not happen on this kind of idea. [28:02] No, you kind of don't really happen upon it. [28:04] I was working at SpaceX at the time [28:06] when I first started reading about nuclear. [28:09] And it was when I was actually working [28:11] on getting Starlinks into Ukraine. [28:13] So after Russia invaded Ukraine. [28:15] And I just started like reading more [28:17] about the conflict there, [28:18] probably more than I normally would have, [28:20] because I was actually speaking with Ukrainians [28:22] and like thinking about what was going on there. [28:24] I was a history major. [28:25] So I think there was just a little bit of like, [28:27] "Oh, geopolitics. Resources are important." [28:29] Russia has a lot of resources. [28:31] You know, randomly, my cousin is the CEO of a glass factory, [28:35] making literally glasses like this. [28:37] And he is like, [28:38] "We're going bankrupt because of energy prices." [28:40] And you're like, "Golly, what is going on?" [28:42] And then I read about Germany [28:44] and the nuclear power plants they were shutting off [28:45] to turn on coal in a place that is like— [28:47] It was so insane. Green Party. [28:49] Crazy, right? Lost their minds. [28:50] So I was like, "What could be so compelling [28:53] that someone would do something [28:55] so counter to their own good," right? [28:57] As a country, as a nation. [28:59] And I, at the time, again, I knew nothing about nuclear. [29:03] I didn't know the difference between fission and fusion, [29:04] honestly, at the time. [29:05] I certainly didn't know [29:06] that it was a pretty big part of our grid and other things. [29:09] But it just was one of those [29:10] like completely under-celebrated, [29:12] under-championed by anyone. [29:14] The climate tech... [29:16] Climate people really weren't into it either. [29:18] And so it just kind of got me curious about it [29:20] and then just started reading more. [29:21] Wrote a piece that I posted on Twitter [29:24] and it's actually how I met Jordan, who's my co-founder, [29:28] and he's the one who actually had the vision [29:29] for micro-reactors for the military. [29:32] And I just said, "What a great beachhead". Like again, [29:34] premium power, great thesis to go to market with, [29:37] and just really got into the topic. [29:40] How did you arrive at that as a beachhead? [29:42] I think, you know, you just say like, [29:43] where can you go that you don't have to compete [29:46] on that LCOE level against the cheap solar panels. [29:49] Where do you go where there's a real need? [29:52] And mission assurance [29:55] for something critical to the military. [29:57] Like, they will pay for that. [29:58] This is also an area where like they [30:00] were obviously behind the Manhattan Project. [30:02] They're here to help develop new technologies. [30:05] And so what a great partner to have [30:07] when trying to do something like this. [30:09] Has DARPA played with this stuff at all? [30:11] Or has it come from... It sounds like you're working [30:13] with the main branches of the military. [30:14] Yeah, you know, we are not working with DARPA [30:17] mostly because it's actually not as technically risky [30:19] as you might even think. [30:21] They prefer things further at the risk curve. [30:23] Exactly. [30:24] We actually... In a funny way, [30:26] it's not even really a tech problem. [30:29] You know, I mean it's hard to build these things, [30:31] but it's not brand new. [30:32] But someone just needs to know how to— [30:33] It's not novel in that way. [30:35] That's interesting. [30:36] What lessons have you brought [30:38] from your prior experience at SpaceX, at Opendoor [30:40] to building Antares? [30:42] You know, one of the things I really took away from SpaceX [30:46] was just like really getting into it. [30:48] It's a very confrontational culture [30:51] and it's not afraid to say like, "Screw your next meeting. [30:55] We need to keep talking about this." [30:57] And I love that. [30:58] Like, I want to bring that energy everywhere I go. [31:00] It's like, if you are unsure about something, [31:04] if you're questioning something, [31:06] you should probably stop and dig into it. [31:09] We had this thing called the "Five Whys," [31:11] I don't know if you ever use— [31:12] In general, yeah. It's like a... [31:14] one of these Silicon Valley little quips. [31:17] But it's like that on steroids. [31:19] And I think the pausing to probe super deeply, [31:24] question things, like really hash things out [31:28] was a big takeaway I learned. [31:30] Like, wow, that's really effective [31:32] at getting to the right answer, [31:34] at making a decision, [31:35] at changing course when you need to. [31:37] And so I've tried to bring some of that to Antares. [31:40] You know, investors are hot and cold on hard tech [31:43] depending on when you're raising money [31:44] and everything like this. [31:46] Presumably there's a J-curve [31:50] in investing in Antares [31:52] where there's definitely some R&D [31:55] before you eventually start paying it back with revenues. [31:57] How is the experience of raising money for this? [32:00] It's going to get harder. [32:01] I think it hasn't been hard to date [32:03] only because there is interest [32:05] and excitement around nuclear. [32:08] It's also just fewer dollars in the beginning. [32:11] You're kind of like honeymoon phase of all of that. [32:14] I think it will get harder. [32:15] I think now the time is ticking. It's like, [32:19] "Okay, let's see your next technical milestones." [32:21] This criticality test, [32:23] obviously the full reactor end of 2027. [32:26] I think it will be challenging. [32:28] And there are several reactor companies out there, [32:30] so it's a bit of a race. [32:32] I think it's going to be fun. [32:33] I mean, I wonder what Polymarket would have to say. [32:35] Several reactor companies out there, [32:37] even at the end of the market that you guys are going after? [32:40] Yeah, everyone has their different niche, right? [32:42] I think our niche is again, the smallest, [32:44] the most DOD-oriented. [32:46] There's a lot of micro-reactor companies or SMR. [32:50] And I'm doing this because it's like, [32:51] "Are they SMR, micro-reactors?" [32:52] Anyway, that are going after data centers [32:55] and the data center build-out, which is an amazing market. [32:57] I mean, amazing. [32:58] I think people will pay a lot more, again, [33:00] going back to the premium power point, [33:02] they will pay more for power for this. [33:04] Not exactly our target market. [33:07] Right, so your niche in the market, [33:10] it seems like you guys have selected a part of the market [33:13] where maybe there's less competition. [33:15] There's still some people going after [33:16] the military applications. [33:18] There always are. [33:19] I mean, if you have a good idea, [33:19] there's going to be a few people working on it. [33:21] How capital-intensive is it going to be [33:23] to get your product to market? [33:25] In the hundreds of millions. [33:27] Okay. Yep. [33:28] I think what we... [33:30] And it depends on what you mean by "to market," right? [33:32] So I think our big milestones, [33:33] like can you build a reactor, prove it, [33:34] turn it on, it's producing power. [33:36] Then I think you can think about interesting layers [33:39] of capital in terms of pre-orders for your reactor. [33:43] That's going to be my next question. [33:44] When does the money arrive? [33:46] Yeah, exactly. Bigger government grants. [33:48] So we're kind of still in the hundreds of thousands, [33:51] single-digit millions of dollars of grants [33:53] that we are getting right now. [33:55] But you're moving into the tens of millions [33:57] of dollars R&D grants. [33:58] And then you want to eventually move into that [34:00] program-of-record, real dollars. [34:03] There's a really interesting program right now [34:05] that the Army has put out called the Janus program. [34:08] Are you familiar with the COTS program that SpaceX used [34:11] to bring, to develop their first reactor? [34:13] Not by name, but I'm familiar with— [34:14] Commercial Orbital Transport System. [34:16] Yeah, yeah, yeah. I'm familiar with the broad— [34:17] So it was the innovation basically [34:19] to say like, let's try something that's not cost-plus [34:21] and let's actually do something that's milestone-based [34:25] and you know, "Well, basically we'll cut you [34:28] if you don't hit the milestone and it's fixed contract. [34:30] We're not going to pay you for whatever." [34:32] So anyway, the Army has taken that model a bit [34:35] and I think used that as inspiration for this Janus program [34:38] where they're saying, "We're going to fund up to [34:40] three to five companies to build their first prototype [34:42] alongside us, kind of at a base. [34:45] And then we will choose a winner [34:48] and we want to build 5 to 10 reactors, [34:50] if not more on bases." [34:52] And so the demand signal now is hot. [34:54] And so this is going to be great for our future fundraising, [34:57] for the industry in general. [34:59] It's like very, very good demand. [35:00] A lot of incumbents build on military, [35:03] US defense contracting. [35:04] What is your experience as someone who's [35:08] attempting to sell to the military? [35:10] I mean, people are actually kind of well aware [35:14] that this cost-plus model is not great. [35:16] The question is like, well, what are the alternatives? [35:18] Who's going to go do it? [35:19] Anduril has been an amazing example of that. [35:21] So I think a lot of us in hard tech really look to them as [35:24] what we try to emulate. [35:26] Every branch of the military [35:28] has these innovative arms that tell you like, [35:32] "Hey, we want to hear about your ideas." [35:34] And they do actually, you can go talk to them. [35:36] They're giving out grants for things like... [35:37] I do think everyone wants the innovation. [35:40] They are, you know, [35:42] and in this day and age of information everywhere, [35:44] you can learn a lot quickly. [35:45] They do want to work with startups. [35:47] I think we'll only see more of it, [35:49] but you have things like the government shutdown [35:51] and the pace of government is slow. [35:53] So you've got to just be able [35:57] to keep pushing those timelines, again, [35:59] while not running out of money, to be able [36:01] to make it through that valley of death. [36:03] What's been harder than you expected building Antares? [36:07] Because presumably you expected it broadly to be hard. [36:09] You expected there to be a lot of technical risk. [36:11] Capital intensity. Yeah, harder than expected. [36:14] Oh. [36:16] There's a couple things. [36:17] I mean, I think, gosh... [36:20] Recruiting is always hard. [36:22] You're up against the SpaceXs of the world [36:25] that have just a lot more credibility, right? [36:27] When you're the no-name person at the very beginning, [36:29] it can be hard. [36:31] I think there's a lot of complexity, [36:35] and even though I said [36:36] we're making so much progress in regulation, [36:37] there's still red tape everywhere. [36:39] Things cost more than they probably should. [36:42] You know, we spend a lot of money paying the national labs [36:45] to do things like clear out a pit [36:47] so that we can test our reactor. [36:49] And it's like, we're paying for that. [36:50] And they're like, "You know, [36:51] here's hundreds of thousand dollars. Here's the bill." [36:53] So there's stuff that you're like, "Gosh, [36:55] there's really a lot of expense everywhere [36:58] and it just slows things down." [37:00] And so I guess we were somewhat ready for that. [37:03] But some of this stuff just seems silly [37:06] and when you're building in software, [37:08] you just don't have to worry about it. [37:09] You just sit there, code, and do your thing [37:11] and go right to market. [37:12] When you have to work with the real world, you have to, [37:15] you know, you have to play their games a little bit [37:17] and you have to follow the process in some ways. [37:21] And there's not always a way around it. [37:23] Sometimes it's just through. [37:24] You said there's still a lot of red tape [37:26] despite the fact that [37:28] there's been the first Biden-era [37:29] and then Trump-era improvements. [37:31] If you were in charge, I know energies are... [37:35] Or you know, we'll give you a role [37:36] with no powers across all these departments. [37:40] What would you change? [37:41] What do you think the specific improvements [37:43] we could make are? [37:44] If I were fully in charge of energy, [37:47] I would love to see the US government be a buyer. [37:50] I think that is... Just like actually the NASA was a buyer [37:53] for SpaceX's eventual launch product. [37:58] I think having the US government be a customer [38:01] for nuclear would be great. [38:02] And so we have this a little bit with the DOD. [38:04] It was a very interesting announcement [38:05] that just came out a week or two ago [38:07] that doesn't have a ton of detail, [38:09] but it's starting in this direction. [38:11] I think it's very positive. [38:13] I'm a small government person, so I don't say this lightly, [38:16] but I do think there are certain things [38:17] when it's national security related [38:19] and things like energy resilience. [38:20] There should be public-private partnership. [38:23] But anyway, the announcement is that the US government [38:25] now wants to spend $80 billion [38:28] on nuclear development alongside Westinghouse. [38:31] So they've basically chosen the technology. [38:33] And I think that's actually a good thing [38:35] because you don't want to... [38:37] You want to be able to build one thing [38:39] and then repeatedly build it [38:40] so that you're not reinventing the wheel every time. [38:43] You actually have economies of scale, [38:46] like the learning curve that you go down from doing that. [38:49] So I'm excited about that news. [38:50] I think that's the type of policy I'd want to see more of. [38:53] And, you know, we'll see how it goes. [38:56] I mean, this is the biggest ever commercial nuclear [39:00] public-private partnership we've seen. [39:02] And sorry, specifically they're buying from Westinghouse. [39:05] Just a large amount of nuclear power? [39:06] Well, it's a combination. [39:08] So this is where, [39:09] I mean, the details are a little fuzzy [39:10] but they've announced 80 billion. [39:12] They've announced Westinghouse as the partner of choice. [39:15] Not all those dollars are going [39:16] right to Westinghouse. [39:17] And that's a company that makes just the reactor itself. [39:19] So there's money that you would spend on a plant [39:22] or licensing fees or whatever else that surrounds that. [39:26] But I think it's really positive. [39:28] I think what it does is it's a catalyst [39:30] for the whole industry, right? [39:31] Like supply chain, workforce. [39:33] People are now paying attention like, [39:35] "Oh, there's real dollars to be made here." [39:37] There's a huge trillion-dollar asset under management [39:42] company called Brookfield Asset Management. [39:44] And they've actually just gotten in the game as well [39:47] in the last couple weeks. [39:48] I'm sure there was talk, right? [39:51] To take the V.C. Summer plant [39:53] that never got completed in South Carolina [39:55] and actually finish it. [39:56] And so again, they now have some nice tailwinds [39:58] with those new production subsidies. [40:01] They are partnering with the local utility to... [40:04] And again, a local utility doesn't have the risk appetite [40:08] to do this themselves, right? [40:09] Or the balance sheet to do this themselves. [40:11] And so there's some really nice [40:13] market signal you get [40:14] when the government's saying, [40:15] "We're going to spend $80 billion on this." [40:19] But I think [40:20] it gets the rest of the industry moving. [40:22] As you guys were exploring and developing the early stages [40:27] of your business plan, [40:29] did you consider for a product that is as tightly regulated [40:34] as this, did you consider doing any jurisdiction shopping [40:37] where you develop a product that you sell in Singapore [40:40] or the UAE or Prospera or [40:42] some more favorable jurisdiction? [40:44] You know, we really didn't. [40:46] It felt like there was enough signal [40:49] that we would be able to [40:52] get through regulatory and see some positive change. [40:54] There was enough basically demand signal within the US, [40:57] and it's... I don't know, [40:59] we take pride in also building for our country, right? [41:01] And it feels good to be developing something [41:04] for our military and our allies. [41:06] So we didn't really shop it around too much. [41:08] Yeah, yeah, yeah. [41:09] And I guess the US military is a large buyer, in this case. [41:11] Very large buyer. [41:12] The largest buyer of non-commodity energy, [41:14] if not all energy. [41:15] How soon afterwards will you go to, like, [41:19] I presume you want to do civilian premium power use cases, [41:25] like you're saying an oil rig [41:27] seems like the one that, [41:29] ironically that... It would be hard to get gas, [41:32] it would be hard to get refined [41:35] diesel or gasoline to an oil rig. [41:37] Does that come right afterwards [41:38] or is that such a different ball of wax [41:40] from a regulatory point of view [41:41] that maybe it's like 10 years later? [41:43] I think it's, you know, you're developing concurrently. [41:46] We are talking with oil and gas already. [41:48] Just understanding them, right? [41:49] "What do you need? [41:50] What do you think you'd pay?" That sort of thing. [41:53] So I would say it fast follows, right? [41:56] A few years later. [41:57] I think it's going to be such a nice proving ground [41:59] if we can make it through and test on a military base, [42:03] for example, and get a first reactor live [42:04] and get some revenue from that, [42:06] then I think it's like open the aperture pretty broadly [42:09] for what else is out there. [42:10] Does this movement towards re-onshoring manufacturing [42:16] in the US and various blockers people talk about to that [42:20] between supply chain is difficult in your... [42:24] You've talked about in the fuel context, [42:25] but also supply chain for manufacturing, [42:27] talent and the roles that people go into [42:30] and finding talent in specific areas. [42:32] I'm just curious. What has your experience been [42:34] of building a hard tech company in the US? [42:37] Supply chain is... Yeah, [42:40] the bottlenecks. Supply chain is challenging [42:42] when you need to work with nuclear-grade material [42:45] and no nuclear plants have really been built. [42:48] It makes for a very limited number of suppliers. [42:51] Which means costs are higher. [42:53] You know, options are just fewer. [42:55] So like, if they're not responding to your email, [42:56] well what are you going to do? [42:57] You know, there's only one other option. [42:58] And like, I don't know, they're busy or whatever. [43:00] So those dynamics are really challenging. [43:03] The graphite that I brought here is actually [43:04] from a Japanese company, right? [43:06] No one's even processing that stuff in the US. [43:08] And so you're kind of, [43:10] you're literally going all over the world [43:11] for these supplies. [43:12] So that's challenging. [43:13] You know, talent is challenging in the sense [43:15] that there are so many options [43:17] for hard tech in the LA region, right? [43:20] So you need to have a compelling mission, [43:23] but nuclear is compelling. [43:24] So it's been challenging, but not in some ways. [43:28] If you want to work at SpaceX and you love space stuff [43:30] and you want to be at that name brand place, [43:33] we've lost you. [43:34] But if you're interested in nuclear [43:36] and being able to build from the very beginning, [43:38] that is a compelling piece. [43:40] Yes. It's the Shackleton pitch, you know of— [43:42] Yeah, totally. [43:43] High risk of failure. Totally. [43:45] And that's the pitch that you're making. [43:46] Yep. Yeah, I like that. [43:49] What trends in nuclear should we be excited about right now? [43:52] So the trend I'm excited about is bringing back online [43:55] these recently shuttered plants [43:57] because they don't take too much money to bring back online. [44:01] And we've seen a couple big power purchase agreements [44:04] where you have Google partnered with NextEra [44:08] or the Iowa-based utility to bring on Dwayne Arnold, [44:11] which was shut down about five years ago. [44:13] And then you have actually Three Mile Island, [44:15] the site of the infamous accident is also— [44:18] Almost accident. Well, it was an accident [44:20] but it was not really a big deal. [44:22] Like this much radiation came out. [44:24] It was like this amount of a chest x-ray. [44:26] Yes, completely overblown "accident". [44:29] That's being brought back online. [44:31] Partnership between Microsoft and Constellation, I believe. [44:36] So that's kind of fun. [44:37] I mean, you're seeing like, [44:38] let's go take these assets that are just sitting there [44:40] that shouldn't have been turned off. [44:42] Bring them back online, bring them back to life. [44:44] Tons of power coming out of them. [44:45] And we need it yesterday, right? [44:47] Yeah, I mean it's so striking [44:48] the big trend in the US right now, [44:50] being that grid demand was flat for the longest time. [44:55] Like we were completely not— Exactly. [44:57] Not adding power generation nor adding power transmission. [45:01] And now because of data centers, [45:04] essentially, we have this enormous boom [45:06] that is just leading to things [45:09] that maybe previously would've been competitive. [45:11] People can't get enough of anything, right? [45:13] You know, people can't get enough of nuclear, [45:15] they can't get enough of solar, [45:16] they can't get enough of natural gas. [45:18] And just everything is backlogged. [45:20] It's really interesting. [45:21] Even the natural gas turbines are backlogged. [45:22] Totally, yeah. I mean, multiple years. [45:25] Across all the manufacturers. [45:26] You know, it is hard when [45:27] something like this [45:28] goes into one of these inflection points, [45:30] and to your point, [45:31] it was less than 1% year-over-year growth [45:33] for 20-plus years. [45:34] And now it's like people are estimating [45:36] 5% annual growth next year. [45:38] Like, oh my gosh. [45:39] Last question. [45:40] What kind of culture do you want to build at Antares? [45:42] Hmm. [45:44] Well, I think it's certainly one of excellence, [45:46] and I think that means [45:49] delivering quality product. [45:52] How you get there... [45:53] I mean, there's a lot of ways to get there. [45:54] You can have the combative SpaceX culture. [45:56] You can have a less combative, maybe more, [45:58] I don't know, writing culture. [45:59] They don't write that much stuff down in SpaceX. [46:02] To me that matters less. [46:04] Although I tend to be one for a working environment [46:07] that is energized, positive preferably. [46:13] But I think, ultimately, I would be proud [46:15] to be delivering on an excellent product [46:18] that can be delivered to market soon, right? [46:20] And we can all go use. [46:22] But, okay. [46:22] So you want the kinda results-oriented culture. [46:25] Results speak for themselves in a lot of ways, yeah. [46:28] Julia, thank you. [46:29] Thanks. Thanks for having me.